Pharyngula

Posted by: MrFire | September 7, 2010 11:48 PM

portcullis'd!

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 7, 2010 11:53 PM

In other news a complete non-sequitur, I'm going rollerskating this Saturday with the ladyfriend first mentioned several threads back; I'm still trying to work out if it technically qualifies as a 'date' or not.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 7, 2010 11:57 PM

Oh, I wanted to say to JeffD:

Really, I can think of far sadder things. I'm not that amazed by physical pleasures in general. This goes for drugs too. And food.

It's all just kind of easy for me to let go of.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 12:02 AM

I'm not sure why this got posted after PZ closed the other thread, but I feel quite special. Oh, and liquid smoke is actually really good. Rather than being some weird synthetic something, it's just condensed stuff from woodsmoke.

Anyway, here's my magical post.

I would like to state for the record that I did not intend to start a thread of, shall we say, random biological ejaculations, by pointing out the anti-masturbation stance of Tea Party candidate. Of course, one of my Spawn announced this evening that an anti-masturbation stance was an odd position for a Tea Bagger to take and then smirked at Mr. M.

I decided tonight to make some buttons featuring "Another Squid for Gay Sex with Brownian."

At my Borders knitting group tonight, a bearded gentleman announced in a loud voice that we knitters needed to be quiet because he was eating his carrot cake. Then he complained to the manager about how we never bought anything and should be thrown out. The manager pointed out that we were there every week, that this was a public and commercial space, and that we bought quite a bit of stuff on a regular basis. And then he called 9-1-1, hung up, and left before the 3 police cars arrived. Knitters are quite dangerous, apparently. And, as DaughterSpawn pointed out, there must be a reason why carrot cake and special snowflake rhyme.

Now I am going to take my random self off to bed and not announce anything that I will do while there.

Posted by: Jorge | September 8, 2010 12:04 AM

Posted by: WowbaggerOM Author Profile Page | September 7, 2010 11:53 PM

In other news a complete non-sequitur, I'm going rollerskating this Saturday with the ladyfriend first mentioned several threads back; I'm still trying to work out if it technically qualifies as a 'date' or not.

Only if you mutually indulge in bacon is it a date. It is fer shur a date if you get it to sizzle. There can be no date without Bacon.

Posted by: «bønez_brigade» | September 8, 2010 12:13 AM

No, bacon still looks as delicious as ever.
The meat-flapping action at 3m44s almost tainted it, though.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | September 8, 2010 12:17 AM

Mattir:

Oh, and liquid smoke is actually really good. Rather than being some weird synthetic something, it's just condensed stuff from woodsmoke.

Yah, Alton Brown showed how to make your own on some episode or other of Good Eats. I can't recall the exact procedure off the top of my head, but IIRC it was pretty simple.

Posted by: Don Smith | September 8, 2010 12:18 AM

I likewise have no idea why that would put one off bacon. It isn't handled significantly differently from other processed foods. The equipment looked clean and the handlers all wore gloves.

What would really put you off bacon is the process of turning piglets into pork bellies.

Posted by: Enurestu | September 8, 2010 12:20 AM

Hypnotic dancing bacon @ 3:57

Posted by: Travis | September 8, 2010 12:22 AM

Mmmm, bacon. This certainly does not turn me off the stuff. But nothing much disgusts me (at least not the things that seem to traditionally bother people, sometimes human behavior disgusts me).

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 8, 2010 12:30 AM

The most sensual of the salted, cured meats...

Posted by: Rorschach | September 8, 2010 12:40 AM

Question for the Biology folks :

Progeria is caused by a point mutation in the LMNA gene.Now, the Wiki article says it's not inherited because it is a point mutation.I have 2 questions :

Why does this single gene mutation cause disease when there should still be a second, working copy(allele)of that gene in every one of us ? And secondly, if shooting out one copy can cause disease, then why could it not be inherited ?

Interesting article, btw.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 8, 2010 12:44 AM

Caine wrote:

Take it slow and easy, most importantly, have fun with the new found friends.

Oh, definitely. I mightn't have had a history as traumatic as Brownian's, but nor have I had a lot of fun with the whole business of interpersonal relations. As a result slow is pretty much all I can do, because I've got no frackin' idea how to do anything different.

Posted by: llewelly | September 8, 2010 12:45 AM

Ah ... that video reminds me of the endless hours I spent doing assembly-line style jobs. Jobs so simple the "lizard brain" could be trained to do the job almost entirely without attention from the higher parts of the brain. Once that was accomplished, the rest of the brain could spend 90% of its efforts on more important things. Like daydreaming.

Posted by: F | September 8, 2010 12:49 AM

http://angryflower.com/baconl.html

Posted by: Crudely Wrott , Drinking Solo Since Death's Back On The Wagon | September 8, 2010 12:56 AM

Cain, Fleur de Mal:

Second, I have finally gotten a A whole lot of Bull uploaded.

Yep. You sure do. Them is some snot slingin' shots.

My father was a professional bull rider during the thirties. He rode in lots of local venues and also in such places as the Boston Garden (first incarnation), that other Garden in NYC, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, and points west.

I had one "bull ride" at a local rodeo when I was seven. On the back of a roping steer about four times my weight. (We were both just kids.) Lil' bugger bucked me off on the first jump and then kicked me in the face. The blood flew and I was really embarrassed.*

A cowgirl came out of nowhere with a cold wet cloth and wiped the blood away, holding me to her breast. I never saw her face, only the pearl snaps on her blue floral print shirt.

Over thirty years later, having returned to the place, I retold the story in a saloon. A lady came out of the crowd and said she was the cowgirl of old.

I had to look closely at the snaps of her shirt and compensate for the change in the color of the floral print. I at first expressed doubt that she could possibly be the one. Then she described my wounds and the words used to introduce me to the crowd. It was her.

Life with just people is reward enough. They just seem to come out of nowhere, you know?

*lived to get bucked off, dragged, butted and battered more by horses, cows, buffalo, pigs, goats and this one damned cat after this episode. pesky critters*

Posted by: SC OM | September 8, 2010 12:57 AM

Have fun, Wowbagger! (That's definitely a date. ...Unless that adds undue pressure, in which case it's totally something else.)

***

I knew I shouldn't read the sexist brain thread. Yet again, numerous notions and strawmen that have been debunked here in the recent past repeated anew and unchallenged including by those who participated in the earlier discussions. Where's the joker who argued that I was responsible for linking to articles any time the subject came up, anyway? I told him that now that he has the links he shares the responsibility. But of course he's AWOL.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 1:14 AM

Crudely Wrott:

Yep. You sure do. Them is some snot slingin' shots.

Oh yes, serious bull spit.

I had one "bull ride" at a local rodeo when I was seven. On the back of a roping steer about four times my weight. (We were both just kids.) Lil' bugger bucked me off on the first jump and then kicked me in the face. The blood flew and I was really embarrassed.*

Sounds like you did pretty well! I think the youngest age allowed is 8 years old, none of them last too long, but they do very well for the most part. There were a lot of juvenile bulls this year, being tested for the first time. Those guys, only about 2,000 lbs, but they were feeling seriously frisky.

Only one serious stomp this time, a double stomp to the side while down; the rider was okay, he'll just be walking a bit funny for a week or so.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | September 8, 2010 1:22 AM

Rorschach #24...love to help, but I injured my brain. I seem incapable of paying attention right now. But I guess y'all have been riffing on monkey-spanking and canoe-waxing. Got nothing I want to offer on that subject other than I'm for it.

Maybe some tube. Night.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | September 8, 2010 1:37 AM

Congrats to Brownian and Wowbagger, though I fear what will happen to The Thread if people start getting lives!

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 8, 2010 1:43 AM

Feynmaniac,

Do you still wish to continue the fundie quote-off?

Posted by: SC OM | September 8, 2010 2:01 AM

Does anyone else remember the song video that PZ linked to a while back with all of the different terms for masturbation? I can't find it, but it was very funny.

Posted by: SC OM | September 8, 2010 2:08 AM

From Llewelly just above:...

Er...,

llewelly was quoting me. Glennid Reckza was talking about DN!, not Pharyngula. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: jcmartz.myopenid.com | September 8, 2010 2:22 AM

Catholicism for kids

Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi | September 8, 2010 3:15 AM

seculargaytheist, #31: It took me a couple seconds to get it, but when I did, well, you made me laugh. Consider the bacon un-spooned.

Posted by: DLC | September 8, 2010 3:22 AM

Hm... Thread 110 should be labelled as C0X. just because.

Posted by: Tom | September 8, 2010 3:41 AM

I thought industrialisation was to make process more efficient?
I make my own bacon - you should try too:
Take a belly of pork, remove any bones - leave on the skin - its a vital part of bacon!
Weigh it and put it in a zip-lock plastic bag with the appropriate amount of dry cure rubbed in and stick in the fridge. Turn every two days - depending on the thickness of the belly it will be ready in 3- 7 days.
Slice as needed -you can do this on a piece of hard wood with steel wire of various thickness stapled in as depth guides. Any bits left that are too dangerous to cut into slices rough cut into lardons.
I would recommend a decent knife - the sort you see being used to cut see through slices of air-dried ham - you cant mechanically cut 2 year old air-dried ham so its a skill you should learn and then you can eat luxury gourmet food that costs nothing but patience compared with the shop prices.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 4:14 AM

Wait I don't understand this. I know why we (the commenters) have to use leet when refering to pornography

Do we? I'm sure I remember typing "porn" quite a few times (in past discussions about the ethics of the sex industry) and none of my posts got spam-filtered. It doesn't seem to be set as a key word that triggers the filter (unlike Conserv%p&&dia). :-/

(Though I guess I'll find out when I attempt to post this one.)

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 4:18 AM

I'm sure I remember typing "porn" quite a few times

(me)

Damn... there's a rich deposit for quote-miners. :-D

Posted by: JB | September 8, 2010 4:44 AM

#24 Rorschach on Progeria

Interesting.

This looks the most useful recent paper after a (very) quick search.
Pollex RL, Hegele RA. Hutchinson–Gilford progeria syndrome. Clin Genet 2004: 66: 375–381. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-0004.2004.00315.x

The disease is caused by mutations in the Lamin A (involved in organisation of the nuclear membrane) gene. If this results in no protein being produced, then presumably the second allele will compensate. However if a modified protein is produced instead, then this interferes with the function of the 'normal' protein from the un-mutated allele, giving the disease state.

It is not inherited because the sufferer doesn't live long enough to reproduce and in the modern world presumably is advised against it if they do. Wikipedia mentions an example of an exception to this though.

What I find most interesting though is the statement in Wikipedia that:

Hutchinson-Gilford progeria syndrome (HGPS) is a childhood disorder caused by a point mutation in position 1824 of the LMNA gene

Apparently not.

The article cited above finds the same mutation - introducing an alternative RNA splice - in 19 out of 23 unrelated individuals. Their explanation is:

Assuming that these cases are indeed de novo point mutations in Lmna, is it not notable that 90% of HGPS subjects have the same C>T substitution at codon 608? The substitution occurs at a highly mutable CpG dinucleotide, as a methylated C can be deaminated to T and miscopied. Thus, it is very likely that codon 608 is simply a ‘hotspot’ for recurring point mutations occurring on different genetic backgrounds.

As I wrote earlier, interesting.

Posted by: JB | September 8, 2010 4:53 AM

#60 continued (in reply to #24)
A link to the progeria paper mentioned

And I did not write it because it seemed obvious, but maybe not: If you get this mutation, it's just bad luck, random chance. Which is why it is so strange that it's usually the same one as everyone elses.

Posted by: JB | September 8, 2010 5:26 AM

#63
Viruses have a habit of not staying in one place. I don't really want a wild combination of influenza plus 'something that messes with LMNA' anywhere near me.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 5:54 AM

WTF. What happened to the ninja turtles?!?

Well, you know, with the economic downturn certain economies had to be made...

Truth is, the CIA cannot afford profligacies like turtles anymore. Their next generation of predator drones have had to be downsized to paper aeroplanes with pictures of missiles painted onto them.

They don't like to talk about it.

;-)

But that's what I mean – turtles are much cheaper in maintenance than mice.

Even though they're not amphibians. (Can't be said often enough. ;-) )

the "massage" function on the shower-head

Wait. American showerheads have a...

What?

Curiouser and curiouser.

Anti-masturbation devices. Been done (not to me (or by me)), but it's been done.

I'm so not clicking on that link.

I've seen those in some of the catalogues that we recycle. Bullet shaped 'personal massagers.'

Yeah. Every big fashion-and-stuff catalogue over here advertizes "massage staffs". I wouldn't say "bullet-shaped", they're more elongate...

The photo always shows a woman holding one to her shoulder. Wwwwell.

Count me in the 'meh' category when it comes to masturbation. It's basically a biological chore akin to blowing my nose, and not much more enjoyable. (It's not about pleasure, it's about avoiding discomfort.)

Wow, just wow. You all are doing it really wrong.

I think I can second that.

I think I can even say that it's by no means necessary to move the foreskin (if you still have one); I can easily imagine that being extremely uncomfortable depending on the details of one's anatomy.

And now I think I better shut up here...

Lubricant? WTF? Oh, if you're circumcised...

Ooh, look, a change of topic:

announced in a loud voice that we knitters needed to be quiet because he was eating his carrot cake.

If he needs silence for that, he can't eat in public. Simple as that. :-|

Also, carrot cake is a category error.

And then he called 9-1-1

X-) <headshake>

I'm going rollerskating this Saturday with the ladyfriend first mentioned several [sub]threads back;

:-)

I'm still trying to work out if it technically qualifies as a 'date' or not.

<headdesk> If you worry about technicalities, you're doing it wrong!

I'm not sure why this got posted after PZ closed the other thread, but I feel quite special.

Either the two of you submitted at the same time (or at least within the same minute).

Or you're divine.

(Or, of course, both.)

Wait I don't understand this. I know why we (the commenters) have to use leet when refering to pornography but why do you (PZ) use leet? Do posts get spam-filtered?

That word isn't forbidden at all. Look: porn. The 1337 is just for fun.

(Well, and probably to make the Pharyngula front page safe for work.)

As I said though, this isn't my area (IAALNAS) so everything I just wrote could be complete and utter rubbish. There could easily be a genetic mechanism that prevents it being passed on. I don't know.

Nope, there couldn't be any such mechanism. What you wrote above that paragraph must all be correct. :-)

How can a non-inherited mutation at a single defined position be responsible for a whole syndrome affecting multiple people?

Lamin is part of how cells hold together. If you're multicellular, that means all sorts of trouble, in other words, a whole syndrome.

"A-million-to-one odds happen eight times a day in New York City." With the world population being what it is, even the rarest of mutations happen several times.

* * *

Now I want some bacon. Haven't watched the video, though. :-)

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 6:05 AM

it is very likely that codon 608 is simply a ‘hotspot’ for recurring point mutations occurring on different genetic backgrounds. Intriguing.Is this known to be the case for any other loci ?

Yes, I just don't know any by heart. :-)

Basically, C deaminates all the time* and becomes U. Any U in DNA is cut out (along with plenty of nucleotides around it), and then a repair polymerase comes in and fills the gap in the strand based on the other strand, hopefully building a C in this time.

Vertebrates have the bad habit of marking DNA by methylation. (Usually that means the gene is silenced, but sometimes the opposite.) When a methylated C deaminates, the result is a T, and the repair mechanism can't do anything about it! Means, next time the DNA is replicated, one double strand will have a G-C pair, and the other will have an A-T pair.

Worse yet: G and T do bind to each other.** Not as strongly as G and C or even A and T, but still.

* DNA falls apart when stored in water. Stupid Design.
** Yet more Stupid Design.

Posted by: Ian B | September 8, 2010 6:17 AM

Liquid Smoke? This is what is so wrong with American mass produced food. What is wrong with making bacon the way you are supposed to make bacon? In a smoke oven.

This is indeed porn as it corrupts young minds as to what real bacon can and should be.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 6:20 AM

Count me in the 'meh' category when it comes to masturbation. It's basically a biological chore akin to blowing my nose, and not much more enjoyable. (It's not about pleasure, it's about avoiding discomfort.)

Wow, just wow. You all are doing it really wrong.

I think I can second that.

I think I can even say that it's by no means necessary to move the foreskin (if you still have one); I can easily imagine that being extremely uncomfortable depending on the details of one's anatomy.

And now I think I better shut up here...

Even by Thread standards of TMI, sharing advice on... um... techniques might be going a little far. :-D

Posted by: Birger Johansson | September 8, 2010 6:40 AM

Walton: "Damn. Why was I such an embarrassingly clueless idiot in those days? :-( :-( :-( "

At least you are moving in the right direction. Ronald Reagan -who, for some reason has been deified by Republicans- moved in the opposite direction. I tend to believe that the truth is usually found somewhere in the grey and uncharismatic middle (unless it it is civil rights issues) (and in some countries the politics are so twisted that what Europeans consider common sense is regarded as "left")
--- ---
"Two asteroids to pass by Earth Wednesday" http://www.physorg.com/news203141705.html
--- --- ---
Ha! I know a few who would benefit from this!
"Acamprosate prevents relapse to drinking in alcoholism" http://www.physorg.com/news203138074.html

Posted by: MrFire | September 8, 2010 6:56 AM

SC, thanks so much for the book suggestions. You've been really helpful whenever I've asked you stuff, and I very much appreciate it.

Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | September 8, 2010 6:59 AM

My hubby likes to watch "How Its Made". Interesting how much manual labor is used in many automated factories. But I hate their penchant for making puns (not a fan of puns, as a rule).
I also hate it when them (so-called) educational channels do an expose program and repeat the "burning question" after every break. I suppose it is meant to heighten the suspense (or, most likely, grab the attention of channel surfers) but actually dumbs the program down.

In my youth, I worked in factory that made MilkBone dog biscuits, but never in a fast-food restaurant. I think I may have missed a quintessential experience of 20th Century life....

Posted by: Peter Ashby | September 8, 2010 7:29 AM

@Jaf

Be careful what you get chauvinistic about. Firstly the vast majority of the bacon sold and eaten in the UK is Danish, and it is processed just like in the video. That is why when you try and fry it, you first have to broil the water out of it, only then will it brown and crisp (I like my bacon crisp).

Sure it is possible to find decent dry cured bacon, I expect the folks over the pond can too. It will however cost you much more, which is the crux of the matter.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 7:33 AM

She would sneak up to the dog bowl and steal a handful and disappear.

Posted by: Peter Ashby | September 8, 2010 7:45 AM

@Rorschach

The term you want to look up for how one mutated allele can cause disease is dominant mutations, in this case a dominant negative. As David Marjanovic has pointed out if the mutation causes a different protein to be made it can cause disease. Sometimes a premature Stop is introduced and a truncated protein is produced that lacks protein domains later in the sequence, or it could be a missense mutation where the reading frame is changed (since dna is read as triplets, if part way through a deletion or insertion of a base occurs the triplets read will be different just lik eif Idi dit int ext).

But it can simply be just like how dark hair is dominant over light even when there is only one copy of a gene for dark hair and the other allele is blond, or red.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 8, 2010 7:54 AM

Ugh, liquid smoke huh.....Sounds delicious.

I've been known to use the stuff. It is hardwood smoke condensed against a cold surface, water is added, and violin, liquid smoke. In small quantities, guite useful.

I've helped make bacon when I lived down in Maryland at a friend's farm. The factory way is much more efficient and keeps the price down. Oddly, no saltpetre on the bacon. Down in MD, it was salt, saltpetre, sugar and a smokehouse. Of course, you had to soak the bacon before frying, but damn it was good.

HARPY MUNDANE!!!

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 8:00 AM

SIR – Graham Farmelo (Comment, September 3) is right to ask where the fundamental laws of the universe come from. The universe is not only miraculous in its origin but in the way it continues to exist as an ordered whole, governed by such laws.

This universe has, moreover, produced intelligent observers such as Professor Hawking who can reflect on its nature and birth. As I understand him, the professor claims that gravity brought everything into existence. But again, where did that come from? On what was it acting? Nothing plus nothing cannot equal something.

There are many reasons why people believe, but for many their faith is in accord with reason. Michelangelo’s or Blake’s depiction of “a white bearded benefactor” is as powerful a metaphor as those of Einstein or Dirac.

Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali
Orpington, Kent

From here
I see the bish has firmly grasped the wrong end the stick. Scientific theorys (while they can be awe inspiring and beautiful) are descriptions of reality with predictive powers, and are testable. They are not the same as art or poetry.


On a different topic, it seems that the BBC is failing to understand Teabaggers

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 8:03 AM

But will it be able to fight the underpants gnomes?

or untangle fucking clothes hangers?

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 8:12 AM

@Carlie:

I think the other problem is that my family won't listen. My brother tried to present Kent Hovind's arguments as proof that goddidit. I was trying not to laugh my face off while I was on the phone with him because I've seen the ways people have debunked them.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 8, 2010 8:24 AM

Well I'm required by the rules that bind me to again post a link to my recipe for making your own bacon.

It's better
It's easy to make
and it's better

http://porkandwhiskey.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/maple-cured-hickory-smoked-bacon/

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 8:31 AM

Telephone Pole Jesus. (Photo of Pole Jesus at the site)

An image of Jesus Christ on the cross has been “seen” in a telephone pole covered in vines next to a motorway in Louisiana. One of them, Rickey Navarre, told US television station KPLC: “It just caught my eye. I said to myself that sure looks like an image of Jesus hanging from the telephone pole.

Local officials were less inspired by religious fervour when they saw the pole and decided it was a safety hazard.

They said the vines were close to high voltage wires and had already been earmarked for cutting before their potential religious significance emerged.

After news of the potential symbolism of the pole came to light the officials acted even more quickly, in case someone tried to climb it to be closer to Jesus.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 8:36 AM

Oh, great...

More bad news for those of us who are terrible dancers. :-(

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 8, 2010 8:38 AM

Oh, great... More bad news for those of us who are terrible dancers. :-(

Well at least I have that going for me.

Posted by: MrFire | September 8, 2010 8:53 AM

Kevin:

some book that's like '40 One-Minute Answers for Skeptics.'

a.k.a. the Gish Gallop if they get rolled out all at once.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 9:00 AM

Eating Woodbines
Thanks for that RTL.
I'm sure your right. I have sort of vaugly wondered about that over the years, but when the story was told by an elderly and irascible aunt, it never seemed to be, hmmmm, appropriate to doubt.
I think it much more likely that I chewed them to ruin but didn't ingest. ('I smoked, but I didn't inhale' - now where have I heard that before?)
Of course I probably grew the story as well.

All moot - the only witnesses apart from me are dead.

Posted by: Teshi | September 8, 2010 9:20 AM

This didn't put me off bacon at all. It actually seems a very straightfoward method of making bacon.

Posted by: DanielR | September 8, 2010 9:26 AM

...it's a bit like hosing holy water onto the attendees at a vampire convention.

PZ, don't you watch True Blood? The holy water thing is just a myth. :D

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 9:32 AM

I've got a really, super-itchy bump on my hand that just appeared a few seconds ago... must be allergic to something...

@McCthulhu:

I read through a few of the 'One Minute Answers' and remain unconvinced. There was one question like "Doesn't science prove evolution is true?" (which phrased the way it is boggles my mind - science doesn't prove evolution is true, it merely postulates evolution as the most likely answer for why we have a diverse species.)

The answer was ridiculous, basically spouting every possible misconception of evolution in a page and a half, it was stupid.

I know my family means well, but I know it will only seed a greater rift between us. I wish they would just follow my rule. I'm not going to bother them about their religion, they shouldn't bother me about my lack of religion.

@RTL:

That's what you get for being thrifty!

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 9:36 AM

* I once bought an umbrella at a little roadside stall in a hurry and a monsoon (zeugma?). Asked the prices and picked the cheapest. The stallholder kept trying to sell me a more expensive model, but I insisted, and set off. Within minutes I realised that it wasn't waterproof. I was now walking in a thick mist. Then it was pointed out to me that I was covered in black dye, which I saw was dripping from every ferrule. Then the fabric shrunk and ripped away from the centre. (No doubt it would have rusted too if I had kept it a day). Brilliant. A non-waterproof, non-colourfast, non-shrinkproof umbrella. Just what you need in a monsoon. I went back to the stall to joke about it. She told me she'd wondered why I'd inisited on buying a parasol.

*giggles* That's exactly the kind of silly thing I could imagine myself doing.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 9:47 AM

They forgot to show the part where, ya know, thousands of pigs are raised in cramped quarters, physically abused, then flayed alive, squealing and bleeding.

I'm surprised that animal welfare, vegetarianism, veganism, etc, are some things overlooked by PZ. Seems that a rational moral conclusion w/r/t factory farming techniques, if not raising and slaughtering animals for food period, is that this is unacceptable. Great masses of suffering for our stubborn gustatory habits. It's undeniably wrong.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 9:51 AM

My sister has a book that they gave her and her boyfriend in her church's Couples Ministry (they have a ton of these things - Singles, Addiction, etc.) It's called "Love and Respect." Supposedly it's a Christian way of looking at relationships.

Anyone see this book before? She's a strong woman, I'd hate for her to fall into the trap of 'Christian wives submit to your husbands.' From what I've read in the reviews on Amazon it's very sexist and misogynistic.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 10:03 AM

Strictly in the "If anyone cares" category. Ankle/heel/foot thing is bad. Felt and even heard a loud tearing yesterday and it appears the Achilles tendon is now literally hanging by a thread. Surgery next Wednesday, can tough it out till then.

:-( :-( :-(

That doesn't sound fun. Best wishes, and I hope the surgery goes well.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 10:11 AM

Strictly in the "If anyone cares" category. Ankle/heel/foot thing is bad.

Best wishes Jeffrey, hang in there.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 10:11 AM

MyFleshSingsOut:

I agree with you that battery/factory farming techniques are unethical. But Caine is right: it's perfectly feasible (albeit sometimes a little more expensive) to eat only free-range meat and animal products.

I am dramatically reducing my meat consumption at the moment, though - primarily for environmental reasons, as I'm conscious of the environmental problems caused by the livestock industry. When I move out in October, I'm planning to go fully vegetarian.

Posted by: legistech | September 8, 2010 10:25 AM

I didn't figure you for being so prudish when it came to food -- that actually looked fairly good to me.

The only tragic part came when -- "she discards the broken pieces or those not up to par". WHAT?!?! Discards???

*weeps for bacon being thrown away*

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 10:37 AM

Caine, you used the same sort of rhetorical techniques that anti-atheists use ("Oh you criticize religion, therefore you think all religion is equally bad"). You tried to turn my post into a dumb idea about all animal product consumption as equally pernicious. And that pisses me off. The part of my post that you used had a caveat right after where you cut it off which clearly showed that I know that not all animal products emerge from factory farming, yet you ignored this to make your glib, irrelevant point, which merely sidestepped the real issues.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | September 8, 2010 10:39 AM

Or just stick them straight in your mouth for a pure hit of bacony goodness.

I like to put a plug twixt my cheek and jaw for long-lasting flavor.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 8, 2010 10:43 AM

We disagree.

Well of course we do, silly. It isn't easy to miss what one never formed attachment to. The closest approximation might be jealousy.

Wishing for what others seem to have. But that wouldn't be very nice.

Posted by: Aquaria | September 8, 2010 10:45 AM

That video does not diminish my love for bacon. Of course, I spent my earliest years on a farm, so nothing about making animals into food bothers me anymore.

Skating: I haven't been able to skate without pain since the massive multiple fractures and dislocation involving my lower leg and ankle bones. They just don't like that sort of pressure on them anymore.

#124:

Don't panic yet. Maybe those go to the bacon bits section.

Posted by: Capital Dan | September 8, 2010 10:47 AM

Microwaves?!? Liquid smoke?!?

That's not bacon. That's... I... Please! Just take it away from me. I can't look upon this vile abomination.

Posted by: Shala | September 8, 2010 10:50 AM

I took my son to lunch the other day and he ordered and ate an entire chicken-fried steak sandwich with a giant platter of french fries right in front of me, which was incredibly cruel…

Those gnu atheists are so MEAN, eating good food in front of you...!

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 10:52 AM

JeffreyD
I'm sorry to hear this. I know a guy who ruptured his Achilles recently. If it's any consolation, after his surgery, he recovered reasonably quickly. I hope the same happens for you.

Kevin
I ran into a similar situation recently when my old youth minister and his wife and kids* came over for dinner. He and I got into a conversation, and I was very honest about my atheism. It was long and painful, but he was actually listening to me, which was nice. The most annoying thing was that he'd given me a book a while back, and I never read it, and he really, really thought it would change my life. It was about how fundamentalism is wrong, but that's not all there is to xianity(!). His face sank when I told him that I'd extensively researched other branches of xianity and had even befriended a priest who swore and drank alcohol. He assumed that I'd abandoned the faith because I'd never bothered to look outside of my tiny sect. He thought he was going to rock my world with the notion that xians can be "hip." It just irritated me that he assumed I'd been thoughtless about the entire thing. Oh, and he tried to cite Newton and Einstein to support faith when I explained that I operated off of evidence. It was a pretty tortured example that I was able to take apart, and to his credit, he accepted. We parted ways on good terms with the promise to continue the conversation later.

Also, I'll second McCthulhu's advice. It's my current tactic. Take the fear of hell out of them, and they'll rest a lot easier regarding your faithlessness. Just really ease your way into it. They're genuinely afraid.

MyFleshSingsOut
Ugh. Just ugh.

Posted by: Paul | September 8, 2010 11:01 AM

I know my family means well, but I know it will only seed a greater rift between us. I wish they would just follow my rule. I'm not going to bother them about their religion, they shouldn't bother me about my lack of religion.

If that's what you want, based on what you've been saying about your family you really need to take to heart McCthulu's suggestion about convincing your family that God won't make a person burn in hell for all eternity for an infinitesimal period where they were mistaken or "prideful". If you spent a day mad at your dad*, would he comdemn you for eternity? If not, why would God? Because as long as they're hellfire and brimstone Christians, they are not going to be able to abide long-term by any "don't mention your religion, I won't mention my lack thereof" unless it involves cessation of all substantial contact. Your eternal soul is at stake.

*That's what you are to them, by the way. You're just mad at God.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 11:05 AM

Ugh. Yes, that's basically all that otherwise intelligent people who refuse to face up to morally reprehensible treatment animals can say in the face of moral arguments against such treatment. It comes down to "But meat tastes so good..." and nothing more substantial than that.

Posted by: Paul | September 8, 2010 11:09 AM

Ugh. Yes, that's basically all that otherwise intelligent people who refuse to face up to morally reprehensible treatment animals can say in the face of moral arguments against such treatment. It comes down to "But meat tastes so good..." and nothing more substantial than that.

Please, define moral. And why we have any duty to treat animals "morally". Then maybe we can talk.

Posted by: Lynna, OM | September 8, 2010 11:10 AM

Glen @47, thanks for that link. Here's an excerpt from the article covering the debate:

At a luncheon earlier in the day with Hitchens and Berlinski, Taunton asked Hitchens about his health problems. "Well, I'm dying, since you asked," Hitchens replied. "So are you, but I'm doing it faster and in more rich and fecund detail."

Can't wait to see the videotape of the event. Supposedly, there will be coverage on 60 minutes as well.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 11:11 AM

MyFleshSingsOut
No. You're just being tedious in a place where I like to have fun. Thank you for assuming that I'm a thoughtless consumer. I actually am one of those people who pretty much only* eats meat raised ethically, and I don't actually eat much meat at all. I just find being yelled at early in the morning by some self-righteous asshole to be an annoyance I'd rather not deal with. It's not that you have raised such a Difficult Moral Issue That I'd Never Thought of Before™. It's that your personality, as displayed thus far, sucks.

*Harder to do in restaurants, but I still do pretty well.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 11:15 AM

Yeah, you're a person who can't make the moral argument that they know needs to be made, so you ignore the issue. That's fine. You're like most people. Carry on.

Posted by: Hairhead | September 8, 2010 11:18 AM

MyFleshSingsOut

Hectoring, humourless, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, you're-all-immoral preaching gets you absolutely nowhere in this place. Nobody's going to debate you here, not because the subject isn't important, but because you're a dick.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 11:21 AM

Yes, and let's not be tedious beneath a post about how meat if made by talking about the ethical issues attached to consuming animal products. Why don't we continue to talk about what it was like to be raised in a Christian household some more, or how hard it is to be an atheist in a predominately religious society... Nothing tedious about or irrelevant about that...

(And I like those conversations, but really, if I'm going to be shouted down for making the most relevant comments here then I'm going to have to shoot back.)

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 11:22 AM

Nobody's going to debate you here, not because the subject isn't important, but because you're a dick.

Posted by: Iris | September 8, 2010 11:25 AM

JeffreyD - that sounds awful. Hope the surgery is successful. In the meantime it's better to be incoherent than in blinding pain.

Speaking of pain, if I may indulge the best skeptics I know, I throw this out to chew on: "prolotherapy."

Ever hear of it? Aside from Orac dubbing it "dubious," I cannot find what appears to me well-sourced, peer-reviewed information - not that I would even know how to evaluate it if I did find it. On the positive side, even if it is total bullshit, side effects appear to be extremely unlikely (except for the considerable pain of the injections themselves...).

I'm only considering this after a full year of science-based medicine failures to successfully diagnose and/or treat sudden-onset, chronic, nearly incapacitating lower back pain. (The only thing the MDs in various disciplines who I saw over the past year ever agreed on was that all those other MDs were wrong about me.) Now, I understand completely how easy it is for anyone to wander into woo: I'm simply at the point where I'll try pretty much anything.

Thanks for any thoughts you might share.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 11:26 AM

Go back to #114, my first post, and tell me how I'm being a dick. I got testy when the first response was an idiotic misrepresentation/evasion of my point.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 11:27 AM

I'd think coming at all at a rodeo would be fun.

I honestly don't know how I'm to explain you all to The Prospect™.

I guess I'll just have to bring her to the orgy and let her figure out how to swim.

Posted by: ceph | September 8, 2010 11:31 AM

#152 Hairhead:
"Hectoring, humourless, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, you're-all-immoral preaching gets you absolutely nowhere in this place. Nobody's going to debate you here, not because the subject isn't important, but because you're a dick."

What a close-minded, nasty, self-pitying and arrogant comment. Of course you haven't addressed any of the serious ethical problems associated with factory farming, of which hog farming is probably the most abusive and cruel. You're not a skeptic, you're just a twat.

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | September 8, 2010 11:32 AM

MyFleshSingsOut:

There are numerous vegetarian readers/posters on this blog (myself included). We're just as sick and tired of the PETA-types as the omnivores.

Say something interesting, new, or funny, or else find some other group to bore.

Posted by: broboxley OT | September 8, 2010 11:34 AM

@Iris #158 get thee to a quackopractor. Its hard to find a good one and lower back pain is more art than science to correctly figure out what is wrong. Start with asking people you know if they use one and how they feel about it. You want one that is a sports injury practitioner. They understand the body fairly well and dont ascribe to an overabundance of woo.

Posted by: MyFleshSingsOut | September 8, 2010 11:35 AM

Yawn, the animal rights folks New Atheists are so preachy and high-roadish. Also boring and repetitive.

Every comment against my comments so far has been no different than the way that the fools who "criticize" (i.e. ignore) the arguments of the Four Horsemen, etc, try to dismiss their points about religion.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 11:40 AM

It comes down to "But meat tastes so good..." and nothing more substantial than that.

I eat meat because of cultural tradition and convenience, which are pretty well the same reasons I don't sew my own clothes from fibres I've grown, don't farm my own food, don't build my own home and furniture out of local materials, and don't walk everywhere.

I cannot justify any of these behaviours better than that, and every one of them carries a cost to the environment and in human and animal suffering. While I try to reduce this cost as much as possible, it would be foolish for me to single out one of them to decry as 'immoral'.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 11:42 AM

The Prospect(Before Us)

(at work - blind)

Heh - just the thing for MFSO

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 11:44 AM

Go back to #114, my first post, and tell me how I'm being a dick.

It was the general assumption that we hadn't bothered to be as moral as you and consider the implications of factory farming. You didn't come here to have a discussion, you came here to preach. You didn't get snotty until you replied to Caine, but you were being obnoxious straight out of the gate.

I worked with farmers for years. I've heard it, discussed it, made my decisions, and am highly conscious of the impact that my habits have on the environment and the lives of other creatures. It's not that I don't enjoy discussing the topic. I've devoted a lot of my life to it (I worked as a personal chef, so it came up there a lot as well). I just don't appreciate how boring and obnoxious you were being about it. If you care to rewind and start over with a discussion instead of a sermon, I'd be happy to engage without groaning.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 11:45 AM

While I try to reduce this cost as much as possible

Wanted to add a caveat: as much as possible while still functioning as well as I can in this modern, agroindustrial culture.

I appreciate the work that the PETA people do to raise consciousness, and I'm glad they exist. I'm glad that the number of vegan and vegetarian restaurants in my town has exploded over the last decade. I'm glad I lived with a vegetarian and have a preference for cooking vegetarian at home, and through planning and thoughtful preparation of meals can reduce my intake of meat by a huge factor, but I'm not able to go full vegan or even veggie. Hell, I can't even get my ass to work without meds. So I'm doing the best I can.

But I do think a day when human consumption of meat is near zero is possible, and I we'll get there if we don't kill ourselves beforehand.

Posted by: Iris | September 8, 2010 11:45 AM

broboxley:

get thee to a quackopractor.

Many thanks... but that's exactly who has just recommended prolotherapy. Technically, he's an MD who also quackopracts. (See? I'm diligently working my way down the "I'll try anything" list.)

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 11:49 AM

@Walton:

I'm not in this argument solely because I'm guilty of having some form of meat (or cheese) in almost every meal. I'm against wholesale animal slaughter and seeing the vile treatment of animals in those types of situations does make me feel poorly about the animals involved.

Unfortunately, what I see is a huge double standard. PETA and its ilk are against anything corporate - meat farms, fur producers, science - and they dedicate the majority of their energy at these specific targets, but they ignore the more pressing matters - breeding and cruelty by owners.

If PETA was interested in anything besides being a ranting anti-business association, I might be interested in their opinion.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 11:50 AM

I honestly don't know how I'm to explain you all to The Prospect™.

I guess I'll just have to bring her to the orgy and let her figure out how to swim.

*rubs hands together in anticipation*

Always happy for another orgy participant.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 11:54 AM

Off-topic: Is there anything more depressing than reading the comments section on a news site? Seriously?

I was just on the BBC website reading about a proposal to reform English homicide law, and made the big mistake of visiting the comments section. Where I was, of course, confronted with hundreds of semi-literate, misspelled variations on the theme of "we're too soft on crime", "bring back the death penalty", "prisons are just like holiday camps", and similar ignorant Daily-Mail-esque blithering to that effect. Aaaargh.

It's really disturbing that people have such massive, grossly uninformed misconceptions about the realities of the penal system. And what's even scarier is that all these people vote.

:-( :-( :-( :-(

Sometimes I really despair of humanity.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 11:55 AM

So we shouldn't eat any meat at all, raising animals for meat is inherently cruel and immoral, and animal husbandry is bad for the planet. So what do we do with all the cows, pigs and chickens? Left to their own devices the cows will overgraze and cause ecological havoc, the pigs and chickens, I don't know, but it can't be good. Do we continue to raise the ones that remain without allowing them to reproduce but keeping them in captivity? Set them free where they will either slowly starve or will upset delicate ecological balances? What about pets? I've got six pets, and I know that this is just immoral animal slavery, and that keeping a pet has a huge ecological footprint, let alone six, but I couldn't help it, they needed homes and I couldn't just let them go feral. The cats would kill songbirds and other wildlife and the dog would probably starve. All of their lives would be dramatically shortened, they would be hungry and sick most of the time. Should we set all the pets free? Keep them in animal slavery until they die? Or is the only ethical thing to do to euthanize all the domestic animals, pets or livestock, in the world?

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 11:56 AM

Also, MFSO, your 154 is a really fucking despicable. Dismissing people's lives and ignoring the very real discrimination a lot of us face doesn't actually do anything to bolster your pet cause. It just makes you a tremendous jerk.

Posted by: Katharine | September 8, 2010 11:57 AM

So we shouldn't eat any meat at all, raising animals for meat is inherently cruel and immoral, and animal husbandry is bad for the planet. So what do we do with all the cows, pigs and chickens? Left to their own devices the cows will overgraze and cause ecological havoc, the pigs and chickens, I don't know, but it can't be good. Do we continue to raise the ones that remain without allowing them to reproduce but keeping them in captivity? Set them free where they will either slowly starve or will upset delicate ecological balances? What about pets? I've got six pets, and I know that this is just immoral animal slavery, and that keeping a pet has a huge ecological footprint, let alone six, but I couldn't help it, they needed homes and I couldn't just let them go feral. The cats would kill songbirds and other wildlife and the dog would probably starve. All of their lives would be dramatically shortened, they would be hungry and sick most of the time. Should we set all the pets free? Keep them in animal slavery until they die? Or is the only ethical thing to do to euthanize all the domestic animals, pets or livestock, in the world?

Also, this.

Animal 'rights' activists are very bad at thinking things through fully. Many of them have no background in zoology, animal behavior, or ecology.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 11:58 AM

Unfortunately, what I see is a huge double standard. PETA and its ilk are against anything corporate - meat farms, fur producers, science - and they dedicate the majority of their energy at these specific targets, but they ignore the more pressing matters - breeding and cruelty by owners.

If PETA was interested in anything besides being a ranting anti-business association, I might be interested in their opinion.

I agree. PETA are a bunch of raving loons.

I also particularly despise the extremist groups who protest (and, in some cases, take violent action against) the use of vivisection in lifesaving medical research. As far as I'm concerned, if animal testing for medical purposes is necessary to save human lives, then it is worth it. I'm not in favour of testing cosmetics or other non-essential products on animals, but for crucial medical research, I don't see any other alternative.

(Sadly, we're often plagued with radical animal rights protestors in Oxford, due to the presence of university medical research facilities. They have a habit of standing outside the Clarendon Building and shouting at passers-by. Rather like street preachers, but generally less articulate.)

Posted by: Ewan R | September 8, 2010 11:59 AM

HairHead #152 bwahahahahaha! Monsato

You called? (almost)

think we in Western societies tend to eat far too much meat, but I don't necessarily think everyone in the world needs to stop eating meat entirely.

We eat far too much meat for sure, but the rest of the world is catching up at a sickeningly fast rate - if I remember the numbers right (and I rarely do) China is at ~40-50% of US consumption now, which is up a ton from 10-15 years ago - likewise India (although I think their consumption per capita lags behind China)

I have to point out that there is plenty of land in the world which is only suitable for livestock-grazing and cannot be used to grow crops

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 12:01 PM

So what do we do with all the cows, pigs and chickens? Left to their own devices the cows will overgraze and cause ecological havoc, the pigs and chickens, I don't know, but it can't be good. Do we continue to raise the ones that remain without allowing them to reproduce but keeping them in captivity? Set them free where they will either slowly starve or will upset delicate ecological balances?

QFT. This is an important point.

Posted by: MrFire | September 8, 2010 12:03 PM

that there's a genuine moral argument to be had about the ethical issues bound up with raising animals to be killed prematurely for our mere pleasure,

There certainly is, but I think it's unfair to open those issues up with a strawman and an appeal to emotion: people don't just eat meat for mere pleasure.

I do believe that an argument for the consumption of meat, that is based solely upon the example that nature gives us, is an example of the is-ought fallacy. But I don't believe, as Walton pointed out, that the converse holds: that we should obliged to avoid eating meat until we can find some constructive, rational justification for it.

I am also open to the idea of choosing a vegetarian lifestyle - but as the comments have progressed, you seem to be approximating to someone who is more interested in making your priority my priority, and that's hubris on your part.

Were everyone to start frequenting those operations and boycott the big agribusinesses then the ma and pa operations would be forced, by the demands of the market, to make their operations more efficient and adopting the same techniques of factory farming.

This is begging the question. You're saying that, if certain set of assumptions are met that infallibly push ma and pa operations into mimicking agribusiness, then they will mimick agribusiness.

Are you sure there aren't other paths that might be taken?

I will certainly agree with you that CAFOs and the like are unsustainable atrocitities, in addition to being biological timebombs, and should be shut down with extreme prejudice.

Posted by: Rorschach | September 8, 2010 12:03 PM

Off-topic: Is there anything more depressing than reading the comments section on a news site? Seriously?

Funny you should mention that ! I wrote about a trainwreck posted by some guy called Dlanga on news24.com yesterday, called The tiring god debate, I blogged about it and just now went back to have a look at their comments, and it was pretty much as bad as I expected.The readership of news24.com does seem to be kinda a chip off the MyFleshSingsOut tree, if you know what I mean.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 8, 2010 12:03 PM

Hehe... friend of friend story.

Girl says: "I could never be a rancher. I'd just have to set all those animals free."

Guy says: "To where? The highway?"

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 12:08 PM

So what do we do with all the cows, pigs and chickens? Left to their own devices the cows will overgraze and cause ecological havoc, the pigs and chickens, I don't know, but it can't be good. Do we continue to raise the ones that remain without allowing them to reproduce but keeping them in captivity? Set them free where they will either slowly starve or will upset delicate ecological balances?

Easy-peasy, except for the economics of keeping animals you can no longer sell or slaughter. Highlighted option for minimal suffering. Some can go to wilderness areas, where they'll go feral after some time. (Fuck, it's not like every domesticated animal immediately freezes once it jumps a barbed-wire fence. Formerly domesticated animals gone feral are a problem all over.)

Besides, isn't this exactly what we're trying to do with the overly populous H sapiens?

Posted by: Rorschach | September 8, 2010 12:09 PM

I asked her if she'd go out with me on a date when she got to Edmonton, and she said yes.

Great.Everyone is getting dates now, and all I have is Ol'Greg having nightmares about me involving gloves.(what the ???)
I'm like Walton now, just add the mortgage and child support.

;)

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 12:17 PM

I hate the "wild" horse business in this country. We try to eradicate or at least control all sorts of invasive species to lessen the damage they do to native ecosystems, but horses are off the table because they're pretty and we have some ridiculous romantic notions about cowboys and freedom and windblown manes. We really ought to round up all the wild horses and sell them to people who will use them. You know horse is a major meat source in the Italian diet?

@Brownian - I know, it's kind of a trite argument, but I felt like throwing out some chaff. It is still a bit difficult: who pays for the care of all that livestock that we can't slaughter and eat? I think the best approach is just to change the economics, get people eating less meat that is raised humanely (but let's give up on getting everyone to stop eating meat, it's not gonna happen) and then the animals will get sold, slaughtered and eaten that are already in the pipeline and we'll slowly get down to a reasonable number. Of course we'll have to be prepared to the massive toll on the economy due to lost jobs, but with decent social welfare policies we can deal with that.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 12:20 PM

Are you sure there aren't other paths that might be taken?

I agree that assuming all the ma and pa farms will turn into huge agribusiness is a bit unreasonable. If consciousness is raised enough that people are only interested in ethically raised meat, then it's also quite possible that they're consciousness will be raised enough to limit their consumption of meat to fit the supply available. I know that factory organic farms do exist, and that's gross, but I also know plenty of people who contact their local farmer and only purchase what s/he has to offer. They don't go elsewhere. Who's to say which one will win out? Slippery slope and all.

Formerly domesticated animals gone feral are a problem all over. [emph. added]

They don't do any favors to the ecological systems they're thrown into a lot of the time. We created these beasts, and it's our responsibility to deal with them. We can't morally just turn them loose to fuck up other habitats.

Posted by: Katharine | September 8, 2010 12:22 PM

I also particularly despise the extremist groups who protest (and, in some cases, take violent action against) the use of vivisection in lifesaving medical research.

It's not even vivisection, which is defined as DISSECTING a live and usually awake animal (taking a biopsy from or doing cognitive tests on or administering a drug to an awake animal is NOT vivisection!). The ones they open up are either dead or anesthetized. I've never heard of any recent cases of an animal being operated on while awake and able to feel pain - that's just sociopathically cruel. PeTA and other groups of idiots misappropriate the word 'vivisection' for their nefarious uses.

Regarding animal use in research, I am very much for it, and at the same time this does not mean I have not thought through the ethical nuances of research. I feel extremely angry when invertebrates are cut into without anesthesia - I know they feel pain (Jennifer Mather has a very good paper on the ethics of invertebrate use). I oppose the use of the great apes in research, and generally support stringent regulations regarding it, especially when it comes to more cognitively complex animals. I have chosen an area of research that is not quite as big on animal use as some others, not precisely because of it, but I consider it a good thing that it uses animals somewhat less - for example, I see no real ethical problems with keeping animals around for the occasional biopsy and doing testing on them; you're not really hurting them, and if you're doing survival surgery where they're not going to undergo any significant pain I've not really got an issue with it. Pain research is a little more dubious in my opinion, but I don't know enough about the use of animals in that area to say much. I support, when possible to produce good results, the use of alternatives to animal tests.

I maintain that without animal research we would not have the great net benefit on the rest of humanity and other animal species that we have today from the technology we have.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 12:24 PM

@Iris - I think you're right, but there was an article on NPR's website a while back discussing the concept of "meatless mondays" and attempting to cut back, but not eliminate meat consumption. I made the fatal mistake of reading the comments and the worst comments weren't from the hard-core vegans, they were from people saying the cut back on meat advocates were PETA terrorists, trying to force them to be vegetarians, etc. They reacted to the simple notion that maybe we don't need meat with every meal as if they were responding to MyFleshSingsOut. But commenters are always a tiny, self selected, vocal minority and should not be used as a gauge of public opinion. And now I have tied together to seemingly unrelated tangents in the thread. Victory is mine.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | September 8, 2010 12:32 PM

But the thing is you actually know it's woo and you appear to not be succumbing to it.

Further to that: with all due respect to all present, I vote for chiropractors as being generally a bad idea...

It's true you can get a decent massage out of one. Provided s/he's none too dedicated to the various 'subluxation' weirdnesses... Or fears you'll leave if they go to heavy on it. But that's probably just about the only reason to go...

Sooo: if that's what you're looking for, go to a physiotherapist or a masseuse. More of what you need, less of what you don't.

Re back pain: I know nothing of your case, am not a doctor, don't even play one on the internet. Repeating my own case: I get* occasional and very painful--even on occasion effectively immobilizing--lower back spasms. Best advice I seem ever to have got on that was: watch how you lift stuff, try to stretch before activity that might cause trouble, and try to keep the muscles in shape. Even if you've a joint a smidge prone to sprains down there, if the muscles around it are toned enough, it's far less likely to give you trouble. Dunno if this has anything to do with your issue, naturally, tho'.

(*/'Kay, it's more 'used to get', now. Been quite some time.)

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 12:34 PM

@gussnarp:

I agree. I'm just not a fan of the "OMG! We have all these animals already so we MUST keep the status quo" argument.

@Jules

I agree with that too. Just saying that the idea that all the animals would suffer so much more greatly in the wild than in a farm is an exaggeration.

They've introduced herbivore herds to the Oostvaardersplassen in the Netherlands, and significant numbers of them die in winter, because they're not managed at all (no gelding, herd thinning, etc. There are also no large predators to the work naturally.)

I'm not advocating dumping a Quonset hut's worth of chooks into a national park, I'm just saying the issue is not intractible.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 12:39 PM

For what it's worth, I agree completely with Iris at #211, and think that's the approach that's gonna save the world.

Funny that we're adopting what amounts to an accommodationist position.

Eh, whatever wins the race.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 12:41 PM

I pay a premium for meat that was raised and slaughtered humanely at local farms owned and operated by the same families I purchase from. It keeps my money supporting farmers in my county, I can go to the farms any time and watch the animals frolic and graze in the fields, and I know that the meat has almost no bacterial contamination.

But people like ceph and MyFleshSings make me want to run out to Burger King and buy a Double Whopper that has a huge Cargill sticker emblazoned across it.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 12:47 PM

@Brownian - It's not accommodationism, which I can't seem to define without making that whole debate sound absurd to me anyway, it's just balance. There can be a balanced consumption of meat, there can not be a balance between teaching science and not offending creationists. Moderation in habits and behavior is not the same as abandoning of principles.

I know, it's a joke, I got it, but I'm feeling pedantic.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 12:50 PM

I know, it's a joke, I got it, but I'm feeling pedantic.

Not at all. I think that was a good response/rebuttal. Thanks.

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | September 8, 2010 12:55 PM

Iris, I agree with AJ Milne: it's worth finding a good physio- or massage therapist for lower back pain.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 1:03 PM

Just got home. Fist chance to see Caine's "Bull Riders"- Really great shots! I see what the references to snot meant now.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 1:05 PM

Seriously, I hate the sanctimonious attitude that no one else other then them must have ever given a single thought to what they eat.

Look, me too. Honestly, they piss me off. Hell, I love The Smiths, but Morrissey is a fucking moron. I just get annoyed that the retorts seem to me to be a little sloppy. Fuck, I used to react the same way to vegetarians, to feminists, to anti-theists, to all sorts of people who were irritating. It's a piss-poor response.

Now, when encountering some sort of rabid one-issue wonder about going meat-free I think to myself "go find a lake to wash that patchouli off, bong-brain", but I'm not going to abandon what I think are my reasons for doing what I do, namely reducing my intake of animal products where possible.

I know none of you are actually advocating that, but I don't like the Whopper reponse. It's reactionary.

LOL. Because that's in scale.

It's not in scale, but it's a roughly equivalent argument. And people have made it.

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 8, 2010 1:09 PM

My family used to raise animals for our own use. When she grew up, my sis swore she would never clean another damn chicken in her life. At age 34, she and her group of Peace Corps trainees were presented with a live chicken as a welcome gift to an African village. None of the kids had any idea what to do, so she was forced to, cursing and hacking and raging and swearing the while.

There was a circus-elephant rehab center somewhere near here, treating an elephant for extreme agoraphobia, jitters and fear of humans. The animal lovers broke in, chased her outside and set her free--in the Ozarks, near a town.

There are some "wild" horses in the Ozarks National Scenic Riverways park. They are just some scrubby ponies that got turned loose, but the Park Service cannot do a damned thing to contain them or take care of them without the cowfolk of the area beseiging the headquarters. Nost of those folks probably hate PETA, but there you go.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 1:14 PM

yeah but, look what PZ Myers did with X back in Y?

Well, PZ is known for looking for any excuse to discriminate against white people.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 1:16 PM

I just get annoyed that the retorts seem to me to be a little sloppy.

Yes, but frankly I don't see these two as worth the time it would take to construct a serious response. Not with the way they're going about it. Plus I'm annoyed that they'd barge in insulting everyone like that. So I guess I could have just said "fuck off", but the burger bit was more fun to type. It's like debating creationists; no point in trying to engage them, because they've already shown that they only want to preach, not to discuss.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 1:23 PM

Well meat is sure a touchy subject. I have seen that video before and it gave me no trouble with eating bacon after watching it. I just don't understand why watching that would stop anyone.

I worked in an abattoir. If you swear off meat because you've never seen an animal die before, you're probably best suited to be food yourself. (Being shocked by industrial food processes is another thing.)

Yes, but frankly I don't see these two as worth the time it would take to construct a serious response. Not with the way they're going about it. Plus I'm annoyed that they'd barge in insulting everyone like that. So I guess I could have just said "fuck off", but the burger bit was more fun to type. It's like debating creationists; no point in trying to engage them, because they've already shown that they only want to preach, not to discuss.

Fair enough. I'm not intending to defend them either.

I think I should probably drop this. Or at least stop trying to make these arguments while simultaneously working and sexting.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 8, 2010 1:26 PM

Definitely no bacon for Brownian.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 1:34 PM

@Rey Fox - I've always been under the impression that all sushi is meant to be eaten in one bite. Not sure if I read that somewhere or just made it up. Something about the expert sushi chef combining flavors in just the right way for you to experience all at once. That is, assuming you mean the slices of rolls, you can't eat the whole roll in one bite (well some people can, but there are better uses for that talent). I expect that you've come up against American desire for big portions meeting Japanese tradition. Some places just make the pieces too big. I've found that before. All that being said, if you're in America eating sushi and the pieces are too big, then you may as well bite them in half since the chef doesn't know what he's doing in the first place.

Now I'll wait for the actual Japanese travelling experts to tell me I'm wrong.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 8, 2010 1:44 PM

"I expect that you've come up against American desire for big portions meeting Japanese tradition."

Quite probably. It's in the food court at the university commons.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 1:50 PM

@Rey Fox - You're at the food court and worried about sushi etiquette? That's so cute! Also, wow, your University food court has sushi? We've got a Pizza Hut.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 1:56 PM

I wonder how long it will be before some troll turns up to claim that 'cracker-desecration' is exactly the same as Koran burning...?

Godwin Fail?

Posted by: Ewan R | September 8, 2010 2:02 PM

broboxley @247 Do carrots do funny things to cows?

I expect his wife was merely upset that he was profiting from the death of an animal with such visual acuity.

Posted by: blf | September 8, 2010 2:10 PM

How did I become KoT?

Chimps, Revs., Brownians, blahs blahs, GOATS ON FIRE! What's the difference?

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 2:18 PM

I would bet that it affects the flavor of the meat rather significantly if it was a large portion of their food.

As someone who hates carrots: GROSS!!!11!!1

Posted by: broboxley OT | September 8, 2010 2:27 PM

Carrot fed beef is extremely sweet, not an enjoyable attribute. Had to salt the crap out of it

Posted by: Shala | September 8, 2010 2:36 PM

Yeah, you're a person who can't make the moral argument that they know needs to be made, so you ignore the issue. That's fine. You're like most people. Carry on.

How about

Every time you post

I will cook some meat and eat it

So your very posting will be considered unethical by your standards from now on.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 2:40 PM

Huh - Google added a new feature - which instantly loads your search results as a search page, I do hope that they clip the more... risque examples of searches from their engine, though.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 8, 2010 2:47 PM

The recent posts re vat grown meat reminded of an SF novel. I can't remember the title, the plot or the author, but I do remember that one of the main characters had made a fortune after developing a GM banana that had the flavour and texture of meat. People loved it but were unable to 'put their finger' on exactly what meat it most resembled.
Eventualy it came out that the genetic material used had been from the developer's own muscle cells.

Anybody recognise this? My Google fu is not up to this challenge.


Or is it my own sick invention?

Posted by: Ewan R | September 8, 2010 2:47 PM

Why bother to include any other ingredients if the whole thing is just going to taste of carrot anway? (Celery's the same).

That's two parts of the trifecta that forms the heart of French cuisine, y'all people are crazy! (well that or there's no accounting for taste, but name calling seems a better way to go)

(always wondered how one would go about becoming a taste accountant, seems a rather niche employment opportunity)

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 2:48 PM

@RTL:

I don't quite understand that... carrots have a mild taste. Also when cooked they get soft and lose a lot of their sugary flavor.

Posted by: j-brisby | September 8, 2010 2:50 PM

The skeptic in me wonders if you could really tell the difference between carrot-fed and non-carrot-fed steak if you didn't know which was which beforehand. Penn and Teller should do a show about it.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 2:53 PM

Google added a new feature - which instantly loads your search results as a search page, I do hope that they clip the more... risque examples of searches from their engine, though.

It's a dynamic search thing - you can turn it off. There should be a little blue "instant is on" to the right of the search box that you can toggle off. According to google "naughty terms" don't dynamically go so that they don't have complaints from parents who start to search for "Fucillo Honda" with their children and start getting results they didn't bargain for (interestingly, I just tried it and the auto-complete suggestions turned themselves off once I got the "fuc" part typed too).

Posted by: chigau (◦_◦) | September 8, 2010 3:00 PM

Steve V #266
John Varley The Ophiuchi Hotline.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 3:06 PM

"Also, wow, your University food court has sushi? We've got a Pizza Hut."

Your university has a food court?

*grumbles about small campuses*

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 8, 2010 3:20 PM

But I hate their penchant for making puns (not a fan of puns, as a rule).

I am a fan of puns, but theirs are usually just lame (as opposed to bad; a good bad pun is a thing of beauty and a joy forever, or at least until someone gets hurt).

JeffreyD: ouchouchouchouchouch! I hope the surgery goes well. And that you can stay sane 'til then. (If it were me, I believe I would knock my head against a wall until the world went away. But then, I am a colossal pain-wimp.)

Or is the only ethical thing to do to euthanize all the domestic animals, pets or livestock, in the world?

And, ulimately, Kill All Humans, too. No humans, no human impact, and the no-longer-existent humans (or, at least, their presumably-disembodied spirits) could revel in the knowledge that the world would now be Pristine, 100% Natural, with No Additives and Preservatives.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 3:22 PM

We have a sushi shop, a sandwich shop, an pasta shop, a Mexican grill, a taco stand, a hot dog stand, two coffee places, a Panda Express, and an oven cooked pizza place. We also have an on campus resturant that serves beer and a lot off campus resturants too! We even have a university owned shopping plaza and cinema!

We have some trees.

Except for the one that just got hit by lightning so they cut it down.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 3:26 PM

broboxley @247
Do carrots do funny things to cows?

Not if you take your time, insert them gently, and stop if the cow uses her safe moo.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 8, 2010 3:29 PM

And you can definitely tell when hogs have been raised on largely acorn diets vs. what they get fed in the industrial farms.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 8, 2010 3:33 PM

Also - Why alcohol is good for you

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 8, 2010 3:33 PM

When I was a student at USF, they had a sushi-to-go vendor in the food court. (They've since torn down that food court and rebuilt it from the ground. Absolutely gorgeous, but I don't know what sort of food is available now.)

PS: Isn't sushi supposed to be finger food? The only thing I use a chopstick for, when eating sushi, is applying wasabi. (I admit to a bit of a breach of etiquette: I tend to put a big dollop of wasabi into the soy sauce. Then again, I never get the chance to eat sushi prepared by a trained sushi chef.)

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 3:40 PM

I'm guessing if you sweet talk her like this, she'll be more than prepared to jump straight into the orgy.

Okay. She's more than prepared, then.

Posted by: First Approximation, L'esprit de l'escalier | September 8, 2010 3:52 PM

Brian Kilmeade defending the Catholic Church: "Galileo would die eventually, anyway".
*head desk*

WARNING: Video contains Bill Donahue.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 4:02 PM

I sympathize with Brownian, having had some difficulty explaining to my family about why involvement in the Pharyngula community should be encouraged and was not a total waste of Mommy's time. I think I've accomplished it, however, since Gay Sex with Brownian, Fucking Magnets, and a variety of other memes have become fairly common in our house. (Last night Son was talking about a girl, paused, and proclaimed "Fucking women, how do they work?" Pretty much cracked Mr. M and the rest of the family up.) The problem is when members of said family wants to join the fray, but get a bit nervous about attracting the attention of truthmachine or other logical-fallacy detectors.

The FB discussion of Carrot Cake Man™ has led to Leigh W's formulation of an useful concept: Important Man Thoughts™. Those are the thoughts that are derailed by women enjoying themselves in public, whether or not said women are wearing clothes, fondling each other, or reading books from the Borders erotica section aloud (said section is on the same wall as, and only inches away from, the Bible section). On the other hand, it's worth pointing out that thought-derailment is a symptom of some pretty serious mental disorders, including schizophrenia. We had an interesting family discussion about Carrot Cake Man™ and how the incident reflects the failure of community-based mental health care in the US. I'd put significant money on the guy being schizophrenic, and resources are almost non-existent for outpatient care that would keep guys like that stable and functioning.

And lastly, here's a hint for MFSO - you are a one-note poster, and one-note posters are unwelcome on the Endless Thread, and relatively aggravating on Pharyngula in general. It does not matter whether your one topic is animal rights, abortion, homeschooling, chiropractic, anarchy, the problems or advantages of agricultural technology, or the delight of your particular fetish for squid in Japanese schoolgirl uniforms. If you write only about that one thing, you are a bore. I came to Pharyngula because of a homeschooling post, liked what I saw, and stayed. I post about a lot of things. If I posted only about homeschooling, and did so in a scolding monotone, I wouldn't be planning social events with Pharyngulites and would presumably be killfiled by more than one of them.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 8, 2010 4:07 PM

I've always thought that rolls were to be eaten with chopsticks, but pieces of fish on rice should be eaten with fingers. Which is probably mainly because they're hard to get a good grip on with chopsticks.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 4:18 PM

If it's bite sized I say use the chopsticks. I take any opportunity I can get to eat with chopsticks. I really like to switch hands mid-meal and watch the people I am dining with gradually realize what I have done while they are struggling with their 'on' hand.

Fingers are for the little man in the boat.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 4:22 PM

I don't know if anyone here wants to dress up in a knitted doll outfit and make porn movies, but if so, here's an example of what those crazy Scandinavians get up to in the winter. In full knitted glory. Definitly NSFW. There are also bears. Playing with themselves. And English subtitles.

Yarn doll porn, Not Suitable for Walton

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 4:32 PM

Wow, that is some knitting fetish. I won't look at a ball of yarn the same ever again.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 8, 2010 4:33 PM

Just got a promotional email from Donors Choose, but I think it's worth sharing.

Pity about the 'miracle' claim, though. Ingrates.

Friends,

There aren't many headlines these days that make you feel great, so I wanted to share this incredible story with you.

To hear from us about other exciting happenings, like us on Facebook or follow us on Twitter.

Pleasant surprise for DonorsChoose.org, schools

Out of the blue, in the middle of a recession, the phone rang.

What would it cost, the caller asked the founder of DonorsChoose.org, to fund every California teacher's wish list posted on the Web site?

The founder, Charles Best, thought perhaps the female caller would hang up when he tossed out his best guess: "Something over $1 million," he told her.

Twelve hours later, the woman, Hilda Yao, executive director of the Claire Giannini Fund, sent Best an e-mail.

It said, in short, OK.

A day later, Yao mailed a check of more than $1.3 million to cover the entire California wish list, 2,233 projects in all, with an extra $100,000 tossed in to help pay for other teacher needs across the country.

The projects funded by the donation range from about $100 to cover pencil sharpeners or paper to thousands of dollars for technology, Best said.

"Use of the word 'miracle' is not an overstatement," Best said Tuesday, a day after 1,000 California teachers were notified that their needs were funded. "I think it's fair to say it's the best first day of school they've ever had."

With budget cuts hitting schools hard, teachers and parents are often covering the costs of basic material like pencils or even textbooks as well as things now considered optional in public education such as field trips and art supplies.

Help for teachers
DonorsChoose stepped in to help fill those needs 10 years ago to give K-12 teachers an easily accessible site to post what they need. Contributors can pay for part or all of each "project" requested, focusing on a specific school or subject area or even the type of gift.

The $1.3 million donation is among the largest gifts given by the San Francisco fund and one of the largest received by DonorsChoose.

At San Francisco's Monroe Elementary School, computer teacher Laura Edeen had several projects posted on DonorsChoose.org. There was a digital camera to replace one that still used floppy disks; a computer with wireless access for a portable classrooms that doesn't have other Internet access; an art cart; new printers; and the big-ticket, $1,000 licensing rights to a software program the teacher knew worked for kids.

It was a pipe-dream list from a teacher who was trying to keep working technology in her classroom using the equivalent of duct tape and chewing gum.

"I'd been busying myself with wishes, just hoping," Edeen said.

The $3,000 in wishes came true.

"I actually e-mailed my husband thinking he funded it," she said laughing, adding she couldn't imagine how else it was all paid for. "It felt like my birthday yesterday."

Teacher thinks big
Reaching for the stars, one Bay Area teacher requested $10,000 for 25 netbook laptops to create a traveling computer lab for her school. They'll be shipped to San Francisco's Sheridan Elementary soon.

Later Monday, the teacher submitted a new request to DonorsChoose: a computer cart for a traveling computer lab.

"She's got herself a shower of stars," Yao said of the teacher. "I'm just so pleased to think this grant has brought so much happiness to such deserving people."

The fund Yao directs was created in 1998 to honor Claire Giannini Hoffman, the daughter of the founder of Bank of America. Donations have focused on education as well as other issues, including a $3 million gift to the nation's school libraries from 2002 to 2004, Yao said.

Yao's mother, Dorothy Yao, the fund's former trustee, and Claire Giannini both believed education was a penetrating and enduring way to transform lives, she said.

"It makes me feel like I'm doing something to remember two remarkable women in the way they would like to be remembered," she said. "I'm happier than even some of the teachers."

This article appeared in the September 1, 2010 issue of the San Francisco Chronicle

Moved by Hilda's generosity? Take a look at the most urgent project requests on DonorsChoose.org, and give one classroom the best return to school they've ever had.

Posted by: Iris | September 8, 2010 4:42 PM

safe moo.

Bwahahahahaha! Crying.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 4:59 PM

That is awesome, Sili. Good new, everyone!

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 5:06 PM

blf, if you are picking the pea from the pod they could very well be involved.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | September 8, 2010 5:12 PM

An update on Gregory Koger:

I testified, along with several others, to his good character at his sentencing a few hours ago.

The judge sentenced him to 300 days in jail (it seems she would have given him a full year, but for all that character testimony).

(To be more technically exact: 300 days on each of the three counts--to be served concurrently.)

Meh.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 5:13 PM

Completely forgot to ask... what does everyone think of Obama's plan to invest 50 gigabucks in infrastructure?

Me, I'm speechless with excitement over Concavenator, the new 7-m-long carcharodontosaur with the quill knobs on its forearms. Let that sink in: it's as distantly related to the birds as Allosaurus is (more distantly than Tyrannosaurus in other words), and yet it had wing feathers, or at least there's no other idea what those knobs could have been good for other than to serve as an attachment site for wing feathers. Described in tomorrow's Nature.

Also, yet more congratulations to Brownian! :-)

Strictly in the "If anyone cares" category. Ankle/heel/foot thing is bad. Felt and even heard a loud tearing yesterday and it appears the Achilles tendon is now literally hanging by a thread. Surgery next Wednesday, can tough it out till then. May not post much, conversely may post incoherently, as I am now operating at a whole new level of narcotics. They are not really helping.

:-o

That's horrible!

I finally realise he's talking about a porcupine. Quills = Bird.

...Wow.

Plus, I have my doubts about people only eating animal products that come from these less morally flawed operations, I'm sure they eat burgers from fast food joints and big grocery stores out of convenience

Not everyone eats burgers, you know. For example, I eat food. :-)

Why don't we continue to talk about what it was like to be raised in a Christian household some more, or how hard it is to be an atheist in a predominately religious society... Nothing tedious about or irrelevant about that...

Should we go back to talking about wanking? :-)

prolotherapy

An extremely crude method that assumes such injuries are somehow not normally supplied with enough blood.

Might cause cancer. OK, I exaggerate, but chronic inflammations always increase the risk, because cell proliferation can always overshoot.

I hate the texture of most vegetables

Run them through a blender and eat them as soups.

I prefer to wait until there's more data on whether one's really getting optimal nutrition from a non-meaty diet

It's feasible, but very difficult. However, most of us do eat a lot more meat than we can be said to need; many of us even eat more than is good for us.

Is there anything more depressing than reading the comments section on a news site? Seriously?

Yes: reading the comments to a YouTube video.

in a thread about meat production

Not that it matters, but this is Episode 102 of an open thread. It's about nothing in particular. Bacon is a running joke, and that's why PZ chose that video for this episode (every episode starts with a YouTube video).

Great.Everyone is getting dates now

Everyone? No! A little Gaulish village does not cease to resist the...

Crap. Welcome to the club anyway.

How would you respond to someone who said, "But people like Dawkins and Myers make me want to join the Taliban"?

I'd say "And while you're out, would you bring me back a double Whopper from Burger King?"

:-D

There was a circus-elephant rehab center somewhere near here, treating an elephant for extreme agoraphobia, jitters and fear of humans. The animal lovers broke in, chased her outside and set her free--in the Ozarks, near a town.

Now I understand what it's like to despair over humanity.

Never understand why people use any of those sugary tubers in their otherwise savoury meals. Why dump a load of overflavoured sugar in your meat stew? Peanuts and potatoes are the only decent eatables that grow underground, imho.

Carrots (and celeriac) need to be boiled as soups or nearly so. In salt water, in other words. And for long enough. Then they're good and not sweet.

Carrot cake is a category mistake.

unionized turtles

It's DEIONIZED!

Day saved.

(And English spelling doesn't need a reform – it needs a bloody revolution! See Opinion 16 and references therein.)

Also when cooked they [carrots] get soft and lose a lot of their sugary flavor.

That's not a bug. It's a feature.

Yarn doll porn, Not Suitable for Walton

Oh, so that's what NSFW means! ;-D

Be sure to read the end credits. LOL.

But did he really have to keep trousers and boots on during... yuck.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 5:20 PM

You're going to need a lot of manure to grow enough vegetables to feed a world eating only plants

Eh, no. Most nitrogen fertilizer these days is made industrially from air and water; 2/3 of the nitrogen in our bodies was taken from the air this way.

Tiny little problem: the way it's done at the moment, much of the necessary hydrogen comes from natural gas, which means carbon dioxide is a byproduct. And guess how the quite high energy requirements are being met so far.

Posted by: blf | September 8, 2010 5:22 PM

Run them [vegetables] through a blender and eat them as soups.

Never tried a soup made of blender. What's the point of the vegetables? Seasoning? …just to make the doctor happy? …or perhaps that's what soupizes the blender—I've met some might tough potatoes &tc, but never thought of using them to liquefy a blender!

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 5:24 PM

Would you want to pay to tend a 1500 pound animal that all you can do with him is clean up his shit and look at him?

Welcome to the world of aquaria, Aquaria, though to be fair, none of my fish are that large.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 8, 2010 5:31 PM

Your doctor seems much more attached to your colon than you do.

Uh oh... is this the return of Pharyngulites 4 Phibre? :-D

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 5:32 PM

Uh oh... is this the return of Pharyngulites 4 Phibre? :-D

I love my end-of-the-night glass of Metamucil, thankyouverymuch.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 5:36 PM

There was an article in the June 2009 issue of Scientific American suggesting phosphorus will become a scare resource in the foreseeable future, Phosphorus Famine: The Threat to Our Food Supply.

What are Catholics made of? There seem to be a tonne of them around, and what do they contribute besides sheltering pedophiles?

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 5:39 PM

Me, I'm speechless with excitement over Concavenator, the new 7-m-long carcharodontosaur with the quill knobs on its forearms. Let that sink in: it's as distantly related to the birds as Allosaurus is (more distantly than Tyrannosaurus in other words), and yet it had wing feathers, or at least there's no other idea what those knobs could have been good for other than to serve as an attachment site for wing feathers.

I love it when you talk dinos, baby.

*swoon*

Posted by: blf | September 8, 2010 5:43 PM

Your doctor seems much more attached to your colon than you do.

Ouuu! Get off! Away!! Away! Bad parasitedoctor. Him! Over there—nice big colon, you should enjoy it.

Whew!

Thanks, I hadn't worked out what it was that was making me nauseous. Feel a lot better now already.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 8, 2010 5:45 PM

However, now I can't wait to use that little guy to make some congee.

*snicker*

Posted by: blf | September 8, 2010 5:55 PM

Tiny little problem: the way it[ industrial nitrogen production]'s done at the moment, much of the necessary hydrogen comes from natural gas…

I have absolutely no recollection of who said(? wrote?) it, or where, but some years ago I read this brilliant description which was something like “Modern agriculture is the business of turning petroleum into food.”

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 6:02 PM

Buncha weirdos here. I love carrots.

I like my thermometer, but I take it out once in awhile.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 6:16 PM

David M:

Wait. American showerheads have a...

What?

Curiouser and curiouser.

I figured that you sexually liberated Europeans invented the damned things.

Walton:

Even by Thread standards of TMI, sharing advice on... um... techniques might be going a little far. :-D

Really, Walton? Pfffffffffft. If you can't get tips here, where can you turn?

Gregory:
And now I shall be forever known as "the girl who digs shower heads."

I'ma gonna go ahead and stop talking about masturbation now. I got too much shit to do tonight (it's Rosh Hashanah. Who knew?)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 8, 2010 6:24 PM

it's Rosh Hashanah. Who knew?

I did, actually, but only because it's on my calendar at work.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 6:27 PM

Apropos of nothing, this trailer was on a collection of trailers we used as pre-show background video for my off-Fringe play this year.

When did movies stop being awesome?

Posted by: blf | September 8, 2010 6:32 PM

it's Rosh Hashanah. Who knew?

Gazuntight! Who is Mr(?) Hashanah? A famous bacon chef?  ;-)
 
 
 
 
No, I didn't know. In fact, I had to lookup Rosh Hashanah because I couldn't recall precisely which holiday / event it is.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 6:40 PM

Still catching up:

Jeffrey #117:
*hugs* Please keep us updated.

My favorite PeTA stories:
While I was the assistant manager of a clothing store*, we sold rabbit fur scarfs. We were told to expect PeTA protesters handing out fliers in front of the store and we were given permission to boot them out if they started to harass customers inside. Anyway, one day this petrified high schooler came in and handed me a flier about how evil my company was and everyone should boycot us, yadda yadda yadda. I took one look at her and said, "Oh really? Here's a tip: don't wear leather shoes to an animal rights protest. Now get the fuck out of my store." Good times.

Story #2: Several years ago, PetA was petitioning to change the name of the town of Fishkill. Seriously.

*Wet Seal, if anyone's interested. I was young and desperate for a job, okay? (Although back then we were just hip, not a "teen clothing store".)

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 6:44 PM

When I converted to Judaism (long story), I told the rabbi that I was doing it because it was a religion whose rituals revolved around food and arguments. Lots and lots of holidays (only one month doesn't have it's own special holiday), each with its own yummy foods and goofy rituals, and plenty of things to argue about. And no requirement to believe anything in particular except that Jesus isn't actually a magical zombie. And, for lots of people, a definition of god that is basically "the universe and/or the good ideas of western civilization" and not any sort of magical sky fairy who cares about wanking.

Not for everyone, but it was sure a relief for me coming from Catholicism. And I like not celebrating Christian holidays, since it always felt to me like calling something Christmas, even if it was totally secular, was an affirmation of the cultural hegemony of something that's done an immense amount of harm over the past two millennia.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 6:50 PM

Mattir:

You could introduce Mr. ODS to the "have sex to celebrate most holidays" part of Judaism, thus combining the showerhead/toy/religious/ethnic heritage parts of the thread.

Oh, trust me, we're all about holiday sleaziness. :P

Good news though: I talked to my mother-in-law and apparently we're not doing the big family get-together until Friday night due to everybody's conflicting schedules. Which is awesome 'cos I'm obviously totally unprepared.

She's been on this "why don't you two ever go to temple?" kick lately but thankfully she didn't bring it up today. It's wearing on my nerves.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 6:53 PM

I like the texture of shredded carrots, but hate the flavour.

Carrots should only be shredded after boiling them as part of a soup. Carrots should only be eaten after boiling them as part of a soup.

I love it when you talk dinos, baby.

*swoon*

:-) I presume you're not going to come to Pittsburgh on Monday, Oct. 11, 9:30, to hear me talk about the origin of the modern amphibians? I'm sure the other guy (4^th picture from the top) will ask questions afterwards. Anyway, more excitement: much of the body of Concavenator (not the forearms, alas) preserves skin impressions. The toe pads show scales (duh), and the underside of the tail shows rectangular scales like those of crocodiles and... Triceratops.

Lab-grown meat sounds extremely energy-intensive. If we pretend there isn't an energy crisis coming, that might well be a solution to overconsumption of meat... but since there is an energy-crisis (plus Climate Change) coming, energy intensive test-tube poultry/beef that doesn't also turn non-edibles and scraps into eggs/milk, down/leather, and fertilizer seems a really weird and wasteful thing to do.

Seconded.

I have absolutely no recollection of who said(? wrote?) it, or where, but some years ago I read this brilliant description which was something like “Modern agriculture is the business of turning petroleum into food.”

Howard Thomas Odum: "an expensive way of turning oil into potatoes."

Why don't you buy Cream of Rice™ like everyone else who likes the taste of nothing in particular?

Whipped cream tastes like air. Except if you add sugar; then it tastes like sugar.

We also don't have "massage" sticks.

Erm, as I already said, all the big mail-order catalogues sell "massage staffs", and the photos all show a woman holding one to her naked left shoulder which is shown from behind.

On the same page, though, "love balls" are usually advertized (you know, the things you insert to train your pelvic floor musculature, though that's not spelled out in the catalogues), and sometimes even more explicit stuff.

When did movies stop being awesome?

Hah.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, avec fromage | September 8, 2010 6:58 PM

ODS:

And now I shall be forever known as "the girl who digs shower heads."

Are there any girls who don't? Or boys for that matter? I know I was starting to get very specific about how I positioned myself in the shower even before I was old enough to understand precisely why it mattered so much to me. I thought shower wanking was pretty much a given.

Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | September 8, 2010 7:05 PM

Jeffrey and Iris -- Ouch, ouch, ouch.

Hope your surgery goes smoothly and you're back on both feet soon, Jeffrey! Iris, good luck with the back thing. I've been battling chronic low back pain ever since the day in 2004 when I tried to help a person with low back pain lift something that this person was not supposed to be lifting. Diagnoses since then have included facet joint injury, piriformis syndrome, sciatica, good old "lumbago", and just recently, trochanteric bursitis.

It's still a plain old pain in the ass to me.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 7:16 PM

Dhorvath:
Well, what do you know, it is. Can't really blame me for getting confused, though, I'm still learning the ropes.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 7:23 PM

Le Dauphin:

I know I was starting to get very specific about how I positioned myself in the shower even before I was old enough to understand precisely why it mattered so much to me.

That is how I discovered self-abuse at the tender age of 11. I'd be shocked if that weren't true for a lot of people.

Posted by: John Morales | September 8, 2010 7:26 PM

Ain't nature wonderful?

3km-long locust egg bed ready to hatch

A three-kilometre long bed of locust eggs has been discovered west of Nyngan in central New South Wales.
[...]
Ranger Lisa Thomas says the recent rain is washing away the soil and exposing the eggs in a number of locations.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 8, 2010 7:29 PM

Celery is good in soup, and also with peanut butter on it.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 7:32 PM

I don't like it, but then again I'm skeeved by my own effluent.

You're not the only one skeeved by it.

I can't believe you wrote that.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 7:35 PM

I can't believe you wrote that.

Yes you can.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 7:38 PM

Celery doesn't have flavour? Maybe my celery is different from your celery.

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 8, 2010 7:43 PM

From the University food discussion above: My Uni, back in the day - we only had gruel. Gruel lite to be exact...instant gruel lite...unseasoned. Fortunately we were able to salt it with out tears.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 7:46 PM

@ ODS - we will have to do a kinky holiday together at some point.

I couldn't resist coming back to jump on the Oprah troll a little more while the fish baked. What an utter freaking treat this day has been on the troll front.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 7:46 PM

Completely off topic:
Anyone have any idea if hibiscus leaves are super-duper poisonous to cats?

I had to bring mine inside 'cos it's damned chilly out there and Maggie will not leave it alone.

I need a plant stand.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 8, 2010 7:48 PM

My Uni, back in the day - we only had gruel. Gruel lite to be exact...instant gruel lite...unseasoned. Fortunately we were able to salt it with out tears.

Was Oliver Twist one of your classmates?

Posted by: llewelly | September 8, 2010 7:54 PM

Jadehawk, OM | September 8, 2010 5:43 PM:

1)why is it that when i talk about a cat being locked in a closet, everyone agrees that the people doing so are cruel monsters, but when we're talking about humane treatment of baconpigs, suddenly someone feels the need to question whether we really need to treat animals nice?

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 8, 2010 7:55 PM

'Tis - Oliver was an upperclassman, they got all the good gruel, the slow cooked variety.

Posted by: llewelly | September 8, 2010 8:22 PM

heatherly | September 8, 2010 7:46 PM:

I think there is going to have to be at least some movement towards decreased meat consumption for food production to be stable and sustainable, but how exactly that will occur seems like a very complex problem

It's not that complicated. The price of meat will continue to rise, and more and more of the poor will stop eating it simply because they cannot afford it. (In fact, I haven't bought meat for about 3 years, simply because it's substantially more expensive than nutritionally equivalent non-meat. I do eat it when other people provide it, however.)

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 8:29 PM

Oops, wrong thread. Damn you Caine!

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 8, 2010 8:34 PM

As soon as she came out of the gate with that bit about knowing the psychology of Oprah-bashers, I knew it was gonna be a good thread.

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 8, 2010 8:43 PM

Thanks for all the good wishes re the pedal extremity. Will not bore anyone with the details here. If you really have a (morbid) curiosity, send me an email and I will bore you or gross you out, YMMV. Bottom line, some tendon cutting, bone cutting and shaping and rebuilding, some tendon reattaching, that is about it. Long recovery time with this particular surgery. At this point, I don't care, would do it right now if I could...in the garage...with a rusty saw blade...sideways.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 8:44 PM

The Oprah troll is one of the best we've had in a long while.

True, true. I just blew my top over it (and I liked it).

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 8:46 PM

I'm on the heavy narcotics tonight, which is where I'll conveniently place the blame.

And you didn't think to share? Damn these foul Fake Wives.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 8, 2010 8:57 PM

You get a .25 starfart for your rant

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 8:59 PM

Well, I think the "hovering over their children with anti-bacterial wipes" deserves another 0.05 starfarts. (I know, deep rifts in the atheist community. ;) )

Ah, tough crowd! That was fuckin' funny and you know it. :-)

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 9:01 PM

Well, I think the "hovering over their children with anti-bacterial wipes" deserves another 0.05 starfarts.

*surreptitiously hides container of antibacterial wipes*

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 8, 2010 9:05 PM

I remember back when I actually wrote things on my Livejournal, I made some grumpy remark about the container of bacterial wipes by the shopping carts at a grocery store, and how germophobic everyone is. A few days later, I got bronchitis.

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 8, 2010 9:08 PM

'Tis -

So we're still talking about masturbation on this thread?

Gads, how infra dig. I would never allow rust to settle on my masturbation saw.

Caine -

Jeffrey and I talked it over and decided that between us, it was best to hoard the stash of good stuff. ;)

Damn right! You think it is easy to harvest the adrenal glads of fetuses? Do you know how many fundies one has to spin down in order to obtain a mere handful of neurons? Share? I look upon such a suggestion with scorn and derision.

:^}

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:09 PM

Brownian wins Teh Internet!

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:16 PM

Yep - I don't allow anything "antibacterial" into the house unless it's straight bleach or alcohol. My kid caught an ear infection once that was resistant to about 7 different antibiotics, and it was not fun.

Yep.

But on the individual level, it's still just as dumb. People are not catching colds or the flu less than they were decades ago before these dumb things came along. The whole world isn't "contaminated," and you can't avoid the occasional illness. I hate the fact that "germ-conscious families" will use these freakin' wipes on the shopping cart handle, but not realize that every product they pick up, and every doorknob they open, hasn't been "disinfected."

Scared Parent, may I introduce you to The Immune System?

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 9:20 PM

Jeffrey:

You think it is easy to harvest the adrenal glads of fetuses? Do you know how many fundies one has to spin down in order to obtain a mere handful of neurons?

Tell me. It's no picnic pulling pineal glands out or getting those tiny thymus glands, either. So much work...

For the Top Chef peeps: I'll try to get through the finale tonight. Do you suppose there will be an elimination as soon as they land in Singapore?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 9:20 PM

Oh, and the wipes comment was gold, Josh.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 9:25 PM

The whole world isn't "contaminated," and you can't avoid the occasional illness.

At the risk of bringing back that other topic, the one area I'd disagree is in raw meats/eggs from the supermarket. The way industrial farms work created nasty strains of bacteria that are able to survive better in the pH of the human gut than any ever could before, and those are ones that literally weren't around in the past. Just an example of how sometimes evolution sucks.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:27 PM

At the risk of bringing back that other topic, the one area I'd disagree is in raw meats/eggs from the supermarket

No argument there, Carlie (and I did modify my comment after I realized it was dumb). Proper handling of raw meat in the kitchen is important.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 9:30 PM

Josh:

Scared Parent, may I introduce you to The Immune System?

::Snortle:: I consider myself very lucky to have grown up when I did, when it was routine to kick kids outside, and kids were expected to get dirty, get scraped up, etc.

I've said before, but I'm fairly sure I didn't have skin on my elbows and knees for some years, just a succession of scabs. Hmmm, way back then, it was usually just soap & water, then a bandaid, but some parents did whip out the squeeze bottle of Bactine.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 8, 2010 9:35 PM

Um, isn't that, like, totally appropriate? Since much of this thread is, like, intellectually masturbatory?

Of course it is. But you didn't have to be so gauche as to actually say it.

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 8, 2010 9:36 PM

Ian Gould, I'd hardly describe artificial bacon bits as bacony goodness. Those soy bits taste like what I imagine dog kibble tastes like. If I find a restaurant or restaurant chain that serves salads with artificial bacon bits, I never go back.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 8, 2010 9:37 PM

Hmmm, way back then, it was usually just soap & water, then a bandaid, but some parents did whip out the squeeze bottle of Bactine.

Wow. My parents though bandaids were too expensive to waste on anything less than arterial spurt.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 9:41 PM

Brownian:

My parents though bandaids were too expensive to waste on anything less than arterial spurt.

My mother didn't pay for them, they were a hospital...perk.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:42 PM

Next to the carrier was a bottle of that antibacterial goo, gel, whatever it is, with a large note saying "Please, don't pet the kitten without using the antibacterial first!"

Again, that's fucking stupid and useless!

Interesting side note - since using the e-cig and (almost) quitting tobacco entirely, I'm smelling things I didn't smell before. I made a garlic/veggie/tofu/fried in oil pasta thing last night that was. . . um. . fragrant, to say the least.

When Mink (fat tabby cat, as compared to Sophie, skinny long-haired cat) crawled into bed with me upstairs and nestled under my chin as is normal at bed time, I almost threw her out.

"Girl!", I exclaimed, "You smell like a garlic whore house! Blech!"

She had totally absorbed the cooking smell, poor thing.

Posted by: Ewan R | September 8, 2010 9:44 PM

Scared Parent, may I introduce you to The Immune System?

Where might I get one of these? Seven days from impending spawnage my immune system has decided that it's going to resume taking me apart, interestingly this time going for the eyes and sinuses, which apparently means that the antibodies I've been shooting into myself these past months are less than 100% effective.

Fuck.

Leaves me more terrified of germage however - kids are notorious vectors for disease, and the next treatment is.... yet another, more powerful, immune system depressing agent. Imma buy me a tub full of germ-x on wheels and propel myself around in it.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:45 PM

Please to be directing me? *ingratiating smile*

It's a right mess. Don't say we didn't warn you.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:50 PM

Ewan:

Leaves me more terrified of germage however - kids are notorious vectors for disease, and the next treatment is.... yet another, more powerful, immune system depressing agent. Imma buy me a tub full of germ-x on wheels and propel myself around in it.

Ewan - take a fucking X*nax. Seriously. You were almost ready to get violent over a smoker walking past your wife on the s), and now you're obsessing over germs to the point of lunacy.

I know some of this is humor, but honestly: Chill. Out.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 9:51 PM

Having suffered through norovirus a few years back, I admit that I hauled out the bleach when poor Mr. M got sick in the middle of the night last week. As soon as he was done being sick, I was busily disinfecting and tossing everything in really really hot water in the washing medicine. Only raw chicken and potential norovirus puke bring out the disinfecting part of me.

I can't believe I'm back after Rosh Hashanah dinner to enjoy our troll. What a joy this day has been.

Josh, I believe that middle-aged white ladies can disregard sanitary recommendations just as nastily as you Gheys. So there.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:54 PM

Caine:

One thing about having an RN in the family, getting it treated at home was the same as at the doctor's, so you just had to deal.

I have to wonder if the standard of treatment is more humane these days, though. When this happened to me, they didn't even think of giving a kid a shot of novocaine to numb up the wound before scrubbing. Why the hell was that? I don't get it.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 9:56 PM

some parents did whip out the squeeze bottle of Bactine.

Mercurochrome.

Later: merthiolate, which stung more. Pretty colors, though.

Or hydrogen peroxide (shudder).

My father likes to tell the story of when he had a large gash in his leg, and his mom poured rubbing alcohol over it to clean it off.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 8, 2010 9:59 PM

I got stitched up at home too, if it was under 10 stitches.

You were lucky. We didn't even have stitches. If it was under the ten stitch level, we had the butterfly bandages. Of course, when we lived in California, the nearest hospital was Lone Pine -- which required driving over two mountain ranges and up a long valley.

Once I did nead stitches. I fell out of our Ford van (while it was moving) and landed in gravel. On my face. My (((Mom))) tossed me into the van, took me to the Ranger station, and the ranger tossed me into the cruiser and drove us to Lone Pine. When we got to the doctor, he looked at my lip and said, "Why'd you bring him here. it's just a bad scrape."

(((Mom))) looked at him and said, "Clean it."

He began debreiding the wound. And it went deeper. And deeper. Until he could see bone. And about 60 stitches later I had an upper lip again. Which, later on, made playing the trumpet really hard.

But, for the minor stuff (falling off a cliff and cutting my head open, falling off the trampoline and cutting my head open, getting hit in the head with a glider on a swing set, all repaired with a pair of hair clippers and some butterflies.

I got hit in the head lots as a kid. I think. Maybe. Not sure.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 9:59 PM

I just got back from the supermarket. My shopping cart had a fucking cup holder on it.

WTF? Seriously? My mind has been blown.

Ha! You too? I thought I was the only one who found this mind-blowing.

Also, the size of these goddamned things. One store I'm forced to shop at has carts so fucking big it's actually an effort to push them. They stick out at least four feet in front of you, as if everyone has a family of 17. It makes me feel like an ugly, fat American trying to maneuver these ridiculous contraptions down the aisle.

Do they think I'm going to just automatically fill the thing up because it's there?

Yet another store, sensibly, has small carts that don't extend beyond 1.5 feet, and have a basket underneath, too. Very convenient for small households, and easier to get through the aisles.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 8, 2010 10:01 PM

I just got back from the supermarket. My shopping cart had a fucking cup holder on it.

Do you want to spill your beverage while pushing the cart around the produce section?

Around here the carts just carry advertisements for chiropractors and insurance agencies.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 10:04 PM

Josh:

When this happened to me, they didn't even think of giving a kid a shot of novocaine to numb up the wound before scrubbing. Why the hell was that? I don't get it.

I really don't know. Generally, with me, it was "this is going to hurt like hell, but it will be over fast". I have a high tolerance for pain though, that makes a big difference.

The first time I had stitches done at a hospital, there was a boy about my age in for stitches too (only about 4 of them) and he was screaming so loud and pitching such a fit, it took 3 adults to hold him down. (This was before anything was actually being done.) I remember being seriously embarrassed and wishing they would knock him out.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 10:08 PM

'Tis:

Do you want to spill your beverage while pushing the cart around the produce section?

I want to know why people feel obligated to take a drink with them where ever they go. It's insanity!

Josh:
Despite only being a household of 2, Mr ODS and I always manage to fill up one of those big carts. I blame the cats. Especially since we buy 20 lbs of litter at a time.

Damn furry free-loaders. *grumble grumble*

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 10:10 PM

Until he could see bone. And about 60 stitches later I had an upper lip again.

Eeeek! I had upper lip stitches once, but nothing nearly so extensive. I had fallen in a hotel bathtub, and at the ER the doc started out saying that I'd only need one or two stitches on the outside, and was in the middle of explaining how almost nobody ever needs stitches on the inside because all the mucosal membranes are so mushy and heal easily when she stopped, did the "huh" thing, and then decided I'd need about 7 or 8 stitches on the inside. It was kind of amusing dealing with the desk clerk at the hotel, though - I stumbled up to the desk still sopping wet (although dressed), with one of their white hand towels up on my face soaked with blood, mumbling about where I might find a hospital. And she freaked out and couldn't tell me. So spouse and I had to drive around on a Sunday night in a town that rolled up the sidewalks at noon, looking for anyone who could direct us to the county hospital.

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 8, 2010 10:16 PM

I believe I mentioned that I had a bulging dish mooshed back into place by a physiotherapist. Someone said that sounded dangerous, but I neglected to mention that it took at least a couple of months of repeated sessions and prescribed exercises.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 8, 2010 10:20 PM

Top Chef - what have you been smoking, producers????

And that's all I'll say about that.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 10:27 PM

May we all be able to understand our mistakes this well.

Yes, that. And may more people who are/were caught up in the moment come to repudiate their involvement in oppression, too.

A nice acknowledgment from Officer Pine. I'm glad I read it.

Posted by: AJ Milne OM | September 8, 2010 10:29 PM

Ugh. Why is it that when I go to the dentist they always find something wrong. Apparently I'll be getting four fillings replaced now :/

I can relate.

I spent some years in my wild youth without regular dental care. I hereby blame this on shit entry-level jobs with zero money and less insurance, not entirely the fact that I really don't like going to dentists very much...

I got off easy, I think. Eventually. Tho' just had one more fun little echo of all that crap again just this week after many long years of relative sanity...

... none of which I'm real convinced I should even get into at any level of detail, here...

'Cos man, I can so out-TMI this thread with my True Tales of Dental Horror©...

I mean, you want blood? You want pain? You want baffled, vertically-challenged dentists getting lost in the labyrinthine depths of the roots of a molar, emerging only months later, gaunt, starving, and stark, raving mad, when a recovery crew finally heard his faint, desperate tapping from far, far below them in the gloom?

I got all that, baby. Thrills. Chills. Nerves no Novocaine can deactivate. Mangled, multiply-impacted tangles of wisdom teeth defying all that is holy and/or developmentally plausible. Images of horror retold, no doubt, in colleges of dental surgery in the dead of night, to terrify the new recruits with the bottomless depths of dental depravity that do exist in sordid underbelly of our world.

So anyway: my commiserations. Yea, verily, drills working upon one's teeth are pretty much teh suckage.

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | September 8, 2010 10:32 PM

Mattir @ #302:

I am in awe. How does one find such a gem?

And why did it take so long to get to the costume part of the credits? Do they not recognize the real star of that film?

Yeah, that was an amazing find.

llewelly @ #386:

The price of meat will continue to rise, and more and more of the poor will stop eating it simply because they cannot afford it. (In fact, I haven't bought meat for about 3 years, simply because it's substantially more expensive than nutritionally equivalent non-meat. I do eat it when other people provide it, however.)

That's exactly how I started.

Brownian @ #421:

+5

and #445 earns you another +.5

Y'all are on a roll tonight. And here I was hoping to get to some reading (you know, the old-fashioned book-in-your-lap variety) tonight. But, too much fun to be had here.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 10:35 PM

I want to amplify Mattir's #459. It's an obituary for the cop who led the raid on the Stonewall Bar in 1969 - this was the seminal event in gay rights history in the US. If you're queer and living in the US, you owe a debt of gratitude to the queens and queers who protested this NYC Police raid on the Stonewall, because it kicked off the modern queer civil rights movement in this country.

Like many "normal" people you may have met over the years, the cop who led this raid (Seymour Pine) lived to think better of what he did. If the quotes about him are to be believed, he later regretted his participation in oppressing gays.

But not entirely, and that's what's interesting:

“He once told me,” [a friend] said, “ ‘If what I did helped gay people, then I’m glad.’ ”

Posted by: AlgaeGirl | September 8, 2010 10:38 PM

Hi All,

I hope this doesn't get lost in the vortex, but I didn't really know where else to go...So, the cliff-notes version is that my mom has always had a special place in her heart for woo medicine even though she's a nurse (acupuncture, chiropractic, reiki, etc). She's fresh out of the hospital from some minor abdominal surgery and today informed me that she will be visiting a "compounding pharmacy" for alkaline water.

How legit are compounding pharmacies? The alkaline water sounds like bs to me, but I at least want to know the cranks giving it to her are doing so knowing it won't mess up her other real meds. A quick internet search turned up some apparently credible credentials, but I was wondering what everyone here knows about them.

So I hope the hordes can help! Thanks!

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 8, 2010 10:41 PM

Aaron Baker,
Sorry to hear the sentence was so harsh. I really don't understand why.
___

Josh, OSG, HKFG,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. That was pure awesome on the Oprah thread. "Televised version of the lottery syndrome." HA!
___

Jeffrey

Gads, how infra dig. I would never allow rust to settle on my masturbation saw.

Ogvorbis, SIotO,
So this is what I read:

Add some poached garlic and onion, a little of the water in which the carrots and garlic were boiled, put it in a blender with a bunch of habanero flesh and a little salt. Blend until not quite smooth. Then convince a teenager to try it (just a small amount). So we're still talking about masturbation on this thread?

That's why I do my cookin' in the bedroom, where being a little adventurous while handling meat is encouraged.

Carlie, G0DB.

My father likes to tell the story of when he had a large gash in his leg, and his mom poured rubbing alcohol over it to clean it off.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 10:45 PM

And mark this, those of you who are obsessed with "tone," and with not offending the religious majority:

“The Stonewall uprising is the signal event in American gay and lesbian civil rights history because it transformed a small movement that existed prior to that night into a mass movement,” David Carter, author of “Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution” (2004), said in an interview. “It is to the gay movement what the fall of the Bastille is to the unleashing of the French Revolution.”

We faggots and dykes didn't get where we are today by continuing to lick the boots of the straight public, or by begging them not to take any more of our legal or discursive rights away.

We demanded to be heard.

The next person who tells me to be "respectful" (read: quietly deferential and becomingly unsure of my right to question religion) can fuck off.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 10:50 PM

ODS:

Next month's Molly nom is gonna be a tough choice.

From the OprahTroll thread alone, Nigel, our Captain Smug and A. Noyd are getting OM nommed by me, again.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 10:53 PM

No, Josh, you don't tell people to fuck off, you use Aquaria's words: fuck right off. It just has that Molly-worthy tone.

For those who are worried that the M family might be engaging in religious woo on this spiffy holiday, our Rosh Hashanah dinner featured a discussion of the anthropic principle and whether "creation" in the biblical account should be counted from the creation of light (day 1), people (day 5?) or the eating of the fruit of knowledge (a weird Mattir proposal). Gotta enjoy these important religious discussions.

Posted by: Rorschach | September 8, 2010 10:54 PM

Jadehawk @ 377,

(ps: if everyone is getting dates, may I please have some too? The social work field is rather deficient in intelligent, non-gay, single men. And it's hard to date in small towns where you may end up flirting with your client's brother. ;)

Did I miss a split-up there somewhere ?

My semen balls and pills something fierce in water

What's more annoying is, it sticks to your skin like superglue, and you have to essentially cut it off.

llewelly @ 263,

She described them as "awesome fucking gloves". That doesn't sound like a nightmare to me.

Yeah, but I don't do that BDSM shit anymore.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawlARhxz_EZad2_PPNvQmVelK-U8LVLTYeA | September 8, 2010 10:58 PM

Btw, is it true that the evolutionary biologist George C. Williams has died? Someone edited his Wikiepdia page claiming the knew he'd died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Williams

Does PZ or anyone know anything on this?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 11:01 PM

Yeah, but I don't do that BDSM shit anymore.

A pity.

I'm sorry, Josh, but this is Rorschach we're talking about. I call lie.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | September 8, 2010 11:03 PM

I'm sorry, Josh, but this is Rorschach we're talking about. I call lie.

Well, Mattir, I'm sorry that you're not the kind of freak I am, but I can hardly be held responsible for your sniffy sensibilities, and, furthermore. . .

Posted by: Rorschach | September 8, 2010 11:12 PM

That wasn't Jadehawk, it was Heatherly.

Oh, my bad, apologies....

Josh, just between you and me, I do believe Mattir who seems to think she has me figured out would be surprised to see the content of some of my cupboards ...:-)

And that is all the TMI for today, some people have work to do !! See y'all in 11 hours.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 8, 2010 11:14 PM

That one took the brunt of the wisdom tooth silliness (went too long without removal--I had no idea that time, either; pain built up so slowly, I guess; it was a wreck by the time the dentists saw it; didn't get the canal right away, but it wasn't long).

Oh I got so used to the pain I forgot about it. I was chewing with my canines for a couple years. I had the abscessed wisdom tooth removed but the others I left for years. Couldn't really afford otherwise.

The thing is when I was little my mom would always brush off my dental pain and say it didn't hurt so I guess after a while I thought it didn't hurt even though I was an adult, if that makes any sense. I would just say to myself "oh that's nothing" since I was the only one experiencing it.

I had to have it confirmed by a dr that, indeed, it hurt like hell most likely :P

Then it hurt.

Isn't that weird?

I mean obviously it hurt all the time, it's just that I wouldn't let myself do anything about it.

I finally had the bastards out last year. Thank FSM for insurance. It was a terrible mess. They were half emerged and badly impacted. Apparently the left on was messing with my sinus.

So weird. It hurt to have them out, but I was in sooo much less pain even with the pain from having them removed. I had no idea. All that pressure had been there for years and years. I actually think it helped me become less depressed. I'm not joking.

But it's too late for the molars. The infections from the back teeth got in there pretty seriously. Between that and the botched dentistry of my past they're basically living on borrowed time.

Honestly, if all I came out of life with is a jacked grill I'm probably pretty lucky.

I just don't want dentures by 40 though.

The dentist today did say that with the exception of my four back teeth, the rest of my mouth looks pretty good.

Yay!

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 8, 2010 11:20 PM

Damn now I hope I don't dream of Rorschach's cupboards.

Or maybe I do.

I dunno?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 11:23 PM

I think any Pharyngula regular is likely to have some highly suspicious items in his/her cupboards. Me, I have a large bucket of kumquats, a didj, a lot of sheep fur, and a catalytic converter. Plus, perhaps, some of those high-end German toys.

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 8, 2010 11:27 PM

Ah, the "You're making assumptions!" counter to proselytizing.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 11:30 PM

Our little OprahIdjit is back.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | September 8, 2010 11:35 PM

I think any Pharyngula regular is likely to have some highly suspicious items in his/her cupboards.

What's in my closets and cupboards stays in my closets and cupboards.

Posted by: MrFire | September 8, 2010 11:40 PM

What's in my closets and cupboards stays in my closets and cupboards.

Yes, but we can all hear the muffled squeals emanating from them.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 8, 2010 11:53 PM

Also, I am looking forward to the Oprah-worshipper's advice on how I can use Oprah's example to become a famous geneticist. It would make that part of doing high school biology with the Spawn a lot easier...

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | September 8, 2010 11:54 PM

Mattir:
I did not know about these things! Mr ODS's family isn't terribly observant* so I'm learning Jewish Traditions Lite.

*A full 50% of the reason why the "you guys should go to temple!" argument with his mom is so damn infuriating to me.

Posted by: MrFire | September 9, 2010 12:33 AM

Josh, if you're still around:

Did you notice myama's comment over on the Oprah thread:

A Yale study found that the trashy talk shows Oprah popularized in the 1980s did more to bring gays into the mainstream than any other development of the 20th century.

After your salient reminder about Stonewall, I'm concerned you might be facepalming yourself to death right now over that.

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 9, 2010 1:16 AM

Cracked.com has some well-written humour articles, I think, that are often about aspects of life, movies or people, not just allegedly-funny stories. One of today's, The 5 Strangest Things Evolution Left in Your Body, may be amusing for some Pharyngulites.

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | September 9, 2010 1:19 AM

Thanks for the heads-up, everyone...that Harriet Hall thread was a fun way to spend the evening. Excellent posting by many current and future OMs.

Posted by: chigau (◦_◦) | September 9, 2010 2:13 AM

I spent most of the day failing to resist the Hall thread. I'm now thinking oprahfangirl is a carefully crafted Poe. No on could be that obtuse.
....
On another topic...
when the current cat moved in (as a kitten) she tried to chew all of our many house plants. We tried several things but the one that stopped her was a quick spritz with the water in the plant mister. It took maybe three applications and now 12 years later she still leaves the room when I spray the plants.

Posted by: John Morales | September 9, 2010 3:03 AM

kiyaroru, I've invested in a digital recorder and no longer watch live TV. Worth every dollar!

A good fifth (at least) of the transmission time seems to be adverts and promos.

Posted by: windy | September 9, 2010 4:13 AM

That bacon has nipples. How come I've never noticed nipples on the finished bacon?

Posted by: John Morales | September 9, 2010 6:32 AM

Strange dinosaur remains discovered in Spain.

Six metres long from snout to tail tip, the dinosaur is the earliest member ever found of a branch of Carcharodontosauria, the largest predatory dinosaurs that ever lived and which until now were thought to be confined to southern continents.

The new find has jaws and small, clawed forelimbs that bear a resemblance to the Tyrannosaurus rex which belongs to a different dinosaur family.

But all similarities end with the spine, which is astonishingly curved and has a small hump, Mr Ecaso said.

"It is the first time we have ever seen a structure like this on the spine of a dinosaur, although it is common on some animals today, such as cows," Mr Escaso said.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 7:32 AM

Good morning everybody. Time for more meaningless, mind-numbing work :D

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 9, 2010 8:07 AM

I think any Pharyngula regular is likely to have some highly suspicious items in his/her cupboards.

My possessions are mind-blowingly boring in general, though.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 8:07 AM

Since my name now seems to be synonymous with prudishness and youthful naivete, I guess it's up to me to judge... in the TMI record books, Brownian @#365 may just have surpassed jidashdee's famous post. :-D

(No, this is not an invitation to other people to attempt to break the record. Please don't.)

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 9, 2010 8:12 AM

"It is the first time we have ever seen a structure like this on the spine of a dinosaur, although it is common on some animals today, such as cows," Mr Escaso said.

In Lower Cretaceous Spain, cowasaur eats YOU.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 8:16 AM

@SteveV:

Bleh... that was a depressing article.

Militant Muslims blow up bombs in crowded markets and fly planes into buildings.

Militant Christians burn crosses on lawns and threaten or kill abortion providers.

Militant atheists talk about science and the absurdity of religion.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 9, 2010 8:25 AM

@KQ,KF

Too true:
Miss M & I got real militant last Easter outside the local RCC but our main weapon was a leaflet.

Mind you, it did give the facts about our Little Local Difficulty&trade, so I guess it pretty inflamatory (but at all inflamable)

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 9, 2010 8:51 AM

Unpleasant selfrealisation of the day: Glancing at the Oprah thread, it just struck me that in my mind all Pharyngulistas are inherently honkey/pale/pasty.

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 9, 2010 9:00 AM

Leaflets are made from paper made from trees! Jesus died on a cross made from wood from trees!

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 9:12 AM

I have no fucking idea (pun entirely welcome) how someone male could possibly wank by showering.

I don't know either. However, I don't think I want anyone to explain.

Posted by: broboxley OT | September 9, 2010 9:29 AM

#475 wtfyr
eating meat is immoral WTF?

would suggest then, that 3 is better than 2. First, it doesn't involve the same possible immorality as preventing animals from breeding. But also because it is wrong in general to let any species go extinct.

Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death | September 9, 2010 9:34 AM

Culture shock. What is the punchline?

I was able to use a variation on that one. After my first knee surgery (a Hauser procedure (translocation of the patellar tendon via transference of bone plugs (also my first experience with morphine (ah, sweet morphine Sue)))), I asked the doctor, "Will I be able to dance?"

The doctor looked at me, smiled, turned to his intern, and said, "You wanna take that one?"

The intern said, "Yes. You will be able to dance once the bones have healed and the muscle strength is back."

I smiled and said, "Fantastic. 'Cause I couldn't dance at all before."

The surgeon smiled and said to the intern,"How can anyone fall for that one in this day and age?"

That help, David?

--------------

Walton:

Pre(((Wife))) I could (as a teenager) done that anywhere anytime anyhow. Then I got married and (((Wife))) and I get along really well, so I kind of got out of practice. But I don't see how masturbating in the shower could possibly be relaxing, fulfilling or even all that comfortable. Wouldn't the pictures get wet?

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 9, 2010 9:40 AM

Hey David, what's your flight pattern for the meeting in Pittsburgh? There may be a mini-Pharyngulite nexus brewing for Rhinebeck that next weekend the 15/16, which is only about an hour north of NYC, which you may be leaving the continent from?

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 9, 2010 9:49 AM

Sili -

Unpleasant selfrealisation of the day: Glancing at the Oprah thread, it just struck me that in my mind all Pharyngulistas are inherently honkey/pale/pasty.

Really? I find that very odd.

Posted by: SteveV, Death's Pissant Haberdasher | September 9, 2010 9:57 AM

JeffreyD
(ambiguity)We can only Hope For The Best©(/ambiguity)

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 9, 2010 10:01 AM

Cold water on my excitement about quill knobs. They do look a lot like quill knobs, but... they're totally in the wrong place. :-(

Warning: that blog is a shocky pinkish purple. That's part of a bigot deterrent that works almost too well. Make sure you sit comfortably before clicking on the link.

Posted by: JeffreyD | September 9, 2010 10:06 AM

Personal stuff, skip if you wish.

Health stuff:

Surgeon knows all about the recent development, saw him yesterday, and I am pretty much on bedrest and wearing a cast until surgery next week.* Surgeon and I talked some about the bone sculpting and reinforcing he plans to do until I noticed that spousal unit was turning green.

Canceling other Dr visits, derma person for skin cancer things and so on.

Spousal unit is riding serious herd on me, won't even let me fill the bird feeders.

KIndle and netbook with in house wireless network are life savers right now.

Cool, I get a disabled parking pass for four months.

I am fine, bored mostly. The pain ranges from manageable to unbearable, but my tolerance is high and the bad periods are usually under an hour in length. Trying to keep the use of the serious narcotics down to a minimum as I will want them to be effective after the surgery (I tend to achieve tolerance to drugs as well, thus less effectiveness).

*Made my birthday suck, I can tell you that, although spousal unit did her best to make it nice.

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 9, 2010 10:13 AM

@ David M - Also, I tried really hard to figure out how to get me and DaughterSpawn to Pittsburgh, but it was totally impossible, schedulewise. So please email me off list. Please please.

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | September 9, 2010 10:22 AM

A laminated picture with a rubber band at the top for hanging purposes is called a "shower pal".

::goes looking for laminator::

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 9, 2010 10:27 AM

SonSpawn would like to state, for the record, that Myama is a fucking douchecanoe. And, furthermore, for the Warhammer aficionados among you, she is obviously a follower of Zeench, Dark God of Chaos™.

Whatever that means - apparently he thinks she's a moron. He can also vouch that my positive thoughts just now did not lead the universe to cause a cookie to materialize on my laptop keyboard.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 9, 2010 10:33 AM

If I find a cheap place for the couple of extra nights, it should be possible, and I should be able to use the extra days for rehearsing the presentation for my thesis defense. (The field trip before the conference will start on the 8^th in the morning, and it's unlikely that the reviewers of the thesis will be done more than a week before I'll leave on the 7^th or possibly 6^th, so I can't defend before the conference. Afterwards, it'll have to be quick, because one of my supervisors won't have time from October 21^st to November 14^th, and would prefer having me defend on Oct. 19^th or earlier.)

:-)

My excitement is back. :-þ

Posted by: Rorschach | September 9, 2010 10:37 AM

I have no fucking idea (pun entirely welcome) how someone male could possibly wank by showering.

Aim, shoot, give it some time, keep your hands off.You might have to explain to your partner/mother/roommate while your showers take 25 minutes all of a sudden though.

PZ in the title post :

I took my son to lunch the other day and he ordered and ate an entire chicken-fried steak sandwich

I have a question here.What exactly is a chicken-fried steak sandwich ?

And , ah fuck, I've been up 16 hours, I just had a fucked up busy shift, and now I have to write blog posts about Andrew Sullivan, and the peculiar but extremely hilarious conundrum Rick Santorum has gotten himself into.
Argh !

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 9, 2010 10:41 AM

Now on ScienceBlogs: Read all about Concavenator.

Whatever that means - apparently he thinks she's a moron.

The Chaos gods of Warhammer are evil and (!) want to destroy... the entire universe, I think.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 9, 2010 10:52 AM

Aim, shoot, give it some time, keep your hands off.

I thought of that possibility, but can't see how it wouldn't either just hurt or have no effect at all.

Are the 25 minutes the "give it some time" bit? In the absence of shower pals at least, that must be boring beyond belief! I couldn't just shower for 25 minutes.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 9, 2010 10:57 AM

Usually the kind of steak used in chicken fried steak is the kind of steak that goes in fajitas. Not so much prime rib or something.

And it is fucking good.

Or is that my Texas showing?

Posted by: Mattir-ritated | September 9, 2010 11:01 AM

@Ewan - two suggestions for germ avoidance related to kids. First, in home day care (i.e. a nanny or au pair who cares for your child in your house). Au pairs were not totally and outrageously unaffordable - we had 5 and really enjoyed them. It was a huge financial stress for us, but we managed. Keeping your kid out of groups of kids where one may be carrying something or been sent to daycare sick is pretty effective. It doesn't mean your kid doesn't get to be around other kids, it just means you have a lot more control over staying away from sick ones.

Second, breastfeeding. My kids did not get sick at all (like not even a cold or ear infection) until after they stopped nursing, which was around 28 months. I've heard this story a lot from nursing friends and a quick search of google scholar reveals a lot of research to support it. On the other hand, google scholar also brings up some articles on breastfeeding and autoimmune disorders (especially autoimmune diabetes) that are more troubling... If Mrs. E goes with breastfeeding, spring for renting the hospital-grade 20 pound pump, trust me. A smaller pump for portability might be nice as well, but the big heavy hospital grade Medela is good when you're functioning as another creature's food source...

/TMI

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 9, 2010 11:05 AM

Somebody elsewhere asked for exposure for this:
LSU Students set up Fund to Help Alligator Attack Victim. Reportage here and here.

My cupboards have dishes and towels in them. Very boring, nothing to see there, just move along. (All the interesting stuff is hanging right out there, where everyone can see it. In your face, pre-conceived assumptions!) :)

Jules, my sympathy for the excruciating abdominal pain, and its inconvenient timing. A couple of years ago, my son had a bout of inconveniently-timed abdominal pain in the wee small hours before he was scheduled for a major job interview. He had his appendix out at 3 o'clockish, and we had to argue him into staying in the hospital instead of going for the interview. Luckily, the HR person in question was very understanding, and rescheduled him for a couple of days later; now he and his IT job are very happy together. Not very comforting in your case, I'm afraid, but it was a great relief to me at the time.

Also, country music is awesomeannoying.

Fixed it.

[...]I would like to start by saying that of all the Japanese animated vibrators[...]

Dabbling in watercolors, Eddie?

Add butter and croûtons.

But if you put croûtons (or even croutons) in soup, they get all mooooshy and disgusting. If a crouton isn't crisp, where's the point?

But I don't see how masturbating in the shower could possibly be relaxing, fulfilling or even all that comfortable. Wouldn't the pictures get wet?

This is why lamination was invented. (By the same logic that brings you, "the Intarnets were invented to bring hot, juicy pr0n into your home and office". Proof: teh Wurld Wide Weeb was invented by Al Gore, who is a man, and men think about nothing except pr0n, 28/7.)(Yes, that was 28/7.)

Posted by: MrFire | September 9, 2010 11:10 AM

I have no fucking idea (pun entirely welcome) how someone male could possibly wank by showering.

In addition to answers above: think of a different part of the body. And the one-stream 'jet' function on the showerhead.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | September 9, 2010 11:14 AM

Right.Your empire is indeed going down.Battered and deep-fried steak.I have no words.

The ones I've met have been more like battered and deep-fried hamburger patties. They were disgusting, though, so my sample size is quite small.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 11:40 AM

I'm not at work today, and am spending the afternoon cleaning the bathroom.

(No, that's not a euphemism for anything... get your mind out of the gutter, Brownian. :-p)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 9, 2010 11:53 AM

steak cuber

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 12:00 PM

steak cuber

Yeah, the hole pokey rolly doohickie is really the true cube steak machine. But the multi pointed mallet works in a pinch (or a smash) if you are with out one of those newfangled fancy cubing flying machines.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 9, 2010 12:05 PM

HEY JOSH!
Rhinebeck's only a few hours from you, and I could pick you up in Albany to carpool. Wanna join in?

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 9, 2010 12:05 PM

It ain't chicken fried steak unless it's cubed (not tenderized, cubed), battered, fried (pan- or deep-, either works, though pan- is more common), and smothered with sawmill gravy.

Posted by: Benjamin "pardon my French" Geiger | September 9, 2010 12:08 PM

Ack. Hit submit instead of preview.

Anyway: Proper chicken fried steak is a heart attack on a plate. But at least you'll die happy.

PS: M*bus is now on Facebook, using the name "Roger Lavoisier". He posted his usual insane copypasta as a comment on a SCA link.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 12:10 PM

It ain't chicken fried steak unless it's cubed (not tenderized, cubed), battered, fried (pan- or deep-, either works, though pan- is more common), and smothered with sawmill gravy.

Yep, though I'll be honest, I've made it a few times with my mallet using the medium disc and it's a reasonable approximation of the cubing.

Posted by: Carlie of the lacy, gently wafting adjectives | September 9, 2010 12:13 PM

If Mrs. E goes with breastfeeding, spring for renting the hospital-grade 20 pound pump, trust me.

Or Medela, as mentioned. Definitely Medela, no other brands. Other brands hurt. Medela is magic.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 12:21 PM

Give me my neurosis back. Right now, ya' hear!?

It's weird how we have so many things in common. :-/

But I've been like this for years. Since my mid-teens at least. I don't even know why: on a rational level, I know I've never been overweight. (At the moment I weigh just over 58 kg - about 128 pounds.) But I still get these feelings of guilt.

In a way, for me, I think it's a kind of self-denial thing. I feel guilty about enjoying food, unless I feel I've earned it by doing enough exercise.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 12:28 PM

I know not everyone in these parts is a fan of Ed Brayton, but there's a pretty important post at Dispatches today which people - Americans especially - ought to read, regarding the Obama administration's stance on the "state secrets privilege" and its rather scary implications.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 12:32 PM

Argh... a conservative Christian acquaintance of mine just had to post a massive rant in his Facebook status about how Richard Dawkins is allegedly ignoring the "catalogue of verifiable data of religious experiences from the begining of time revealing the imprint of a transcendent God".

Yes, you read that right: "verifiable data of religious experiences".

I'm heroically resisting the urge to comment. SIWOTI syndrome is a terrible thing. :-(

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 12:35 PM

@Walton:

The plural of anecdote != data!
The plural of anecdote != data!
The plural of anecdote != data!

Posted by: Ewan R | September 9, 2010 12:38 PM

I'm heroically resisting the urge to comment. SIWOTI syndrome is a terrible thing. :-(

Y'know, if you hold it in you're likely to cause all manner of ailments - negative energy should always be released.

Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas | September 9, 2010 12:42 PM

Ed's alright, but some of his readers are fucked in the head.

I'd have to agree with that. Raging Bee and I are not friends.

I don't comment there often, though.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 12:43 PM

Aww! Cute!! :3 Baby seahorse!

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 12:47 PM

@Rev BDC:

Honestly I'm not at all surprised. I voted against Obama cuz I was a Christian looney, but still. Obama has made a whole bunch of promises, and so far he's followed through on very few.

Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau | September 9, 2010 12:50 PM

Oh don't get me wrong Rorschach. When I get done creeping Walton out I'll join you guys.