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PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
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Poor David Hume is dying fast, but with more real cheerfulness and good humour and with more real resignation to the necessary course of things, than any Whining Christian ever dyed with pretended resignation to the will of God.
[Adam Smith, on the death of David Hume. In the published version of Smith's introductory letter to Hume's autobiography, these words are tempered to exclude the Whining Christian.]
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More articles by PZ Myers can be found on Freethoughtblogs at the new Pharyngula!
Category: Kooks • Skepticism
Posted on: September 2, 2010 9:01 PM, by PZ Myers
Here's a swami with his magic breathing advice for coping with throat cancer. How these guys can dispense bogus medical advice and not get lynched by angry cancer patients is a mystery.
At least he looks really goofy when he curls his tongue and breathes. Now if only there were some yogic enchantment that could do something about his creepy squink eye…
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Comments
Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official
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September 2, 2010 9:14 PM
Please to not be making mouth look like orifice puffed out by holding breath really hard.
Please also not to sound like really bad dubs of Pippi Longstocking films into English.
Thanking you.
Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 2, 2010 9:15 PM
Is there a yoga to make bad yoga videos go away?
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 9:20 PM
Ugh. He could at least cover up.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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September 2, 2010 9:26 PM
How about giving him the hot wax treatment??? I'll pour, you ladies can rip...
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 9:28 PM
Nerd:
I'm in.
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 2, 2010 9:29 PM
I'm so glad you got around to this douch-nozzle. I spotted him in the "Featured" section on YouTube.
Yes, you read that right: Featured
I'd love to see Hitchens have a go at this twat.
Posted by: Paul H
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September 2, 2010 9:34 PM
When I first saw the picture, I thought it was Mike Myers in a costume for some reason. This has more comedic appeal.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 9:34 PM
billygutter01:
Dude, I have nothing against a few good expressions of contempt and derision, but you think you can come up with some that aren't on the distaff side?
Posted by: Inferno
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September 2, 2010 9:36 PM
Well being of Indian descent, I can honestly say that just like most of the general religious population, they actually earnestly believe that this is doing some good.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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September 2, 2010 9:41 PM
I'm reminded of an old Walt Kelley Pogo cartoon. Howland Owl is giving Albert the Alligator a physical exam. Owl asks "How is you at breathin'?"
Albert responds "I'm an expert, never miss a day."
Posted by: PZ Myers
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September 2, 2010 9:41 PM
I believe that pissing on a swami brings good luck. Could you get more people to accept that idea?
Posted by: S
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September 2, 2010 9:43 PM
Unfortunately commentator number 9 is right, most of the population believes it does good, although most of them don't have the patience to try it. It's a strange combination of apathy and believing earnestly in the woo-woo that you are apathetic about.
Posted by: Inferno
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September 2, 2010 9:44 PM
You say that now. When it becomes an accepted religious practice, and people start worshipping you for it and killing people in your name, I'm sure you'll temper your sarcasm.
;)
Posted by: S
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September 2, 2010 9:45 PM
At #13: It has been an established practice for millenia, though the finer details vary. Mercifully nobody has gone murdering in it's name.
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 2, 2010 9:46 PM
@#8
Point taken.
Posted by: Timaahy
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September 2, 2010 9:47 PM
Score one for the beardless! Although the Pope is beardless... maybe they cancel each other out.
Posted by: S
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September 2, 2010 9:48 PM
In the vein of #16, now I'm sure PZ regrets bragging about belonging to the bearded club so frequently. Now he must be realizing that it doesn't always mean elite company.
Ayatollahs???
Posted by: eleusis
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September 2, 2010 9:52 PM
Just goes to show how "Eastern spirituality" is sopped in superstition, and the Buddhism that Westerners practice is an eviscerated form of the original religion (although they claim it is closer to the original teachings).
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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September 2, 2010 9:52 PM
I've got a beard and a hairy chest. I can look squinty-eyed and I can even roll my tongue. Should I make a video about how biting one's toenails prevents athlete's foot?
Posted by: Basil
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September 2, 2010 9:54 PM
"I worry that, especially as the Millennium edges nearer, pseudo-science and superstition will seem year by year more tempting, the siren song of unreason more sonorous and attractive." - Carl Sagan
I'm reminded of that particular quote every time I see such utter nonsense trying to pose as truth. If we only believe it's true, then it will be. We just need to believe in our spirit friends, crystal power, pyramid hats, guardian angels, or coffee enemas! But goodness forbid that we actually put a little effort into understanding science and technology. The science that has given us REAL medical advances, the kind that save and extend lives.
Ol' Squinty McSwami there can keep is crazy faces and funny breathing. I'll get back to reading about Receptor Tyrosine Kinases, Anthocyanins, Radiotrophic Fungi, or something that isn't full of mind numbing stupid.
Posted by: Kausik Datta
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September 2, 2010 9:56 PM
This is not the least of Baba Ramdev's (the guy in the vid) lunacies. One just has to open any of India's leading newspapers to find some mention or other of this person every so often, making some weird claim after the other. Recently he even announced his intention to enter politics, that acclaimed last refuge of scoundrels.
Along the lines of what Inferno commented at #13, it is all about the correct packaging. Take age old yogic physical exercise, throw in a liberal dollop of Eastern mysticism, garnish it with absurd claims of religious connotations, and there you have a winner, like Ramdev - there are people who lap up every single phrase that comes out from his mouth.
Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 2, 2010 9:56 PM
Squinty McSwami
Ha!
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 2, 2010 9:56 PM
@#8 (again)
I've just realized that if I'd called him a "dick" or a "knob end", I'd be going from distaff to dat staff, right?
Is a belated pun allowed?
Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 2, 2010 9:59 PM
I've just realized that if I'd called him a "dick"
oh, I think you'd have to ask Phil Plait about that...
http://vimeo.com/13704095
Posted by: Robster
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September 2, 2010 10:00 PM
'bout as effective as praying (preying).
Posted by: Xavier Ninnis
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September 2, 2010 10:00 PM
Why not focus on quackery that actually poses some danger?
He does say after chemo or radiation treatment, and, as far as I can tell, is simply recommending drawing cooling air over the burns that commonly result from radiotherapy.
A simple common sense palliative, nothing about a cure.
Posted by: RobertL
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September 2, 2010 10:01 PM
Oooh Caine. Great use of the word, "distaff".
Reading that made me feel all of a-flutter.
Posted by: James R. Palmer II
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September 2, 2010 10:01 PM
Yea it's a pretty stupid dubb over. by the way I hate to say it but this is the culture that the 'secular' facsists used for propoganda. Steal a bogus mysticism and make it your own bogus mysticism. By the by im talkin bout the swastikas- worthless in 1900, 1940s, and now.
Posted by: Basil
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September 2, 2010 10:04 PM
On a semi-related note, this guy reminds me of another interesting internet lunatic. It kinda makes my brain leak out of my ears. I think my neurons are trying desperately to get away from the stupid he radiates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxyofYuts04
Posted by: ambulocetacean
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September 2, 2010 10:05 PM
Gotta love the Indian sceptics. They're up against a mountain of woo that has taken millennia to build, but people like Sanal Edamaruku are succeeding in waking a lot of people up to it.
Bwahahahahaha! They already get at least part of their wisdom from drinking their own urine, don't they? If you give them some of yours too that would surely make them even more holy.
Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 2, 2010 10:05 PM
Why not focus on quackery that actually poses some danger?
plenty of room to ridicule all quackery.
Posted by: Xavier Ninnis
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September 2, 2010 10:06 PM
Why not focus on quackery that actually poses some danger?
He does say after chemo or radiation treatment, and, as far as I can tell, is simply recommending drawing cooling air over the burns that commonly result from radiation treatment.
A fairly straightforward, common sense, palliative; nothing whatsoever about a cure.
Posted by: magistermundisum
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September 2, 2010 10:12 PM
this is among the lesser of his lunacies. Apparently he also cures "the gay" through yoga.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/08/baba-ramdev-yoga-guru-cha_n_228043.html
And here is more on the guy
http://nirmukta.com/2010/04/22/yogi-in-politics-a-rationalists-thoughts-on-baba-ramdev/
Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings
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September 2, 2010 10:13 PM
Why do people insist on putting "common" and "sense" adjacent to each other?
It appears they have nothing to do with each other.
Posted by: mxh
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September 2, 2010 10:18 PM
Yep... we should see this published in the Southern Medical Journal anytime now.
Posted by: jeffery.g.davis
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September 2, 2010 10:21 PM
Are we sure it was his breathing and not all the c*** he's been sucking? Ok, sorry that was inappropriate, but I love the low blows.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo
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September 2, 2010 10:28 PM
I'm not watching the vid, but that was funny.
Posted by: Basil
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September 2, 2010 10:28 PM
I find that common sense, is not really so common. Like not drinking the household cleaners under the sink, or hooking yourself up to a live electrical circuit. But if "common sense" was common, we wouldn't have the Darwin Awards....
Posted by: FossilFishy
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September 2, 2010 10:30 PM
Jeffery: Yup, that's inappropriate and a pre-emptive apology doesn't cut it. It's only a low blow if you think that being gay is somehow wrong, so are you a fucking homophobe or what?
Posted by: FossilFishy
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September 2, 2010 10:33 PM
Preemptive not pre-emptive. Damn, but I love me the useless hyphens. :P
Posted by: Judy L.
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September 2, 2010 10:38 PM
Any kind of self-care that a person finds relaxing and rejuvenating (even prayer/meditation) after chemo or radiation is good.
PZ, I totally understand your concern here, but even though the video's translation does have him saying "this is good for throat cancer", the focus really is on breathing techniques that could make a person FEEL BETTER post-treatment. And while complimentary therapies that give a person a greater sense of well-being by making them feel cared for/calmer/less sick don't work to actually treat or cure a disease, they are worthwhile as an adjunct to real medicine simply because they make a person FEEL BETTER.
Posted by: Wormman
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September 2, 2010 10:38 PM
So I guess the folks who can't roll their tongues are screwed then
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 10:40 PM
billygutter:
Right. ::snortle::
Robert L:
Deary me, Lawks and all that. Where the hell is that fainting couch? ;)
Posted by: cosmicaug
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September 2, 2010 10:47 PM
This is embarrassing. I think I have a copy of one of his DVDs. Don't ask! I was told that he is very big in India.
I didn't pay for it, however. I also didn't ever get around to watching it because it seemed boring & nonsensical even from the very beginning.
I'm also guilty of spreading a copy to a vulnerable mind (a very sweet but rather gullible yoga instructor). :-(
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 2, 2010 10:49 PM
@#24
Thanks for that link. And, for the second time already this thread, I take the point.
For the most part I'm a fairly cool-headed fella, and not likely to launch headlong into nastiness.
But, I must confess, hucksters claiming miraculous cancer cures are something of an Achille's heel for me.
Death by cancer lurks far too close to home, and it's difficult to be dispassionate.
That is no excuse, I realize.
But I'm working on it.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo
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September 2, 2010 10:50 PM
Judy L @#41 makes sense.
damn it
Posted by: Chgo_Liz
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September 2, 2010 10:57 PM
Wormman @ #42:
I was thinking the same thing. It's a recessive trait, not something that your tongue can be trained to do.
Posted by: cosmicaug
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September 2, 2010 10:58 PM
By the way, I like comment #12 a lot. I think it sums it up well.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 11:04 PM
billygutter:
I think you'd find most of us feel the same way in regard to cancer. Ichthyic's comment and link were a bit of an in joke; Phil Plait's on the DBAD (Don't Be A Dick) side; PZ (and most of the horde) are one the WWWBAD (What's Wrong With Being A Dick) side. ;)
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 2, 2010 11:22 PM
Well, my tongue was mostly in my cheek as well (apprx 53.6%).
To clarify: I'm working on it... but not very hard.
;)
Posted by: Rorschach
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September 2, 2010 11:24 PM
I would have thought we are mostly on the side of 'What Phil considers a Dick differs greatly from what we consider a Dick".
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 11:26 PM
Rorschach:
Good clarification. Agreed.
Posted by: Forbidden
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September 2, 2010 11:28 PM
I'm not really seeing a big problem here. He wasn't saying "Breath like this and it'll cure cancer" or "Breath like this and you won't get cancer", he seemed to be saying "If you have cancer, after chemotherapy, breathing exercises are helpful".
Chemotherapy fucks you up pretty bad. Doing exercises like focusing on breathing can help cope. You certainly won't allow you to get up and dance, but meditative breathing can help with some of the pain and fatigue.
To reiterate: Anyone claiming breathing exercises will cure anything worse than a mild headache is clearly insane. But just as much, anyone claiming that breathing exercises are worthless isn't helping anyone.
(As an aside, I'm not so convinced on his particular breathing exercises, which seem rather silly, but who know, I haven't tried them. I'm merely commenting on breathing exercises on general.)
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 2, 2010 11:36 PM
Forbidden:
Sure. The problem lies in that this sort of thing, while harmless and possibly helpful to some people is hand in hand with all the utter crap which is pushed, like the guy who claims he can go 3 months without eating or drinking; those who claim that paying attention to your chakras will cure you of whatever ails you, etc.
This simply enables the harmful stuff.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/zUYdyjpjvucpRybcNYH1neaI0YndfFXY#2dae9
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September 3, 2010 12:03 AM
I'm going to take flack for this, but I think you're being too hard on the guy. He states several times that the exercises he's offering are for AFTER chemotherapy and radiation. He is also not promising this as a miracle cure, just something to help. Now, he may have other videos that are crap, but this does not strike me as woowoo at all. Then again, I'm also someone who has verified by careful trial and error that the Yogic technique of nasal irrigation, Jalla Nehti, actually works very well for me.
Now, he's a yogi, so he certainly has videos out there that are blatant crap. Let's blast him there, and not when he's being mostly rational.
Posted by: Rorschach
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September 3, 2010 12:14 AM
Just priceless.
Posted by: bornatheist
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September 3, 2010 12:19 AM
#53
Forbidden,
Maybe breathing some pure oxygen can get rid of headaches, but so far all I have found is aspirin, and the like, work to get rid of headaches.
The guy on the video is a Yog? I wouldn't want anyone calling me that. What a weirdo.
Posted by: garethd
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September 3, 2010 12:19 AM
Well, I gave it a shot but I kept dropping my cigarette.
Posted by: H.H.
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September 3, 2010 12:19 AM
I know the comments on YouTube are generally lowbrow and uninventive, but some of them can still be hilarious:
Posted by: Kyle N
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September 3, 2010 12:43 AM
Gee, let me hop in my time machine and go back and tell my Granny about this.
Or, better yet, tell her to stop smoking.
If she hadn't died when she did, I doubt my life would've turned out the way it did in so many significant aspects.
Asshole gurus like this piss me off royally.
Posted by: Forbidden
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September 3, 2010 2:09 AM
For one thing, I'm talking about proper breathing, not pure oxygen. And secondly, a bad headache, no. A mild headache, possibly. Depends on the source of the headache.Proper breathing and meditation techniques can lessen pain. They won't cure you of anything, but they can help you cope with pain. A mild headache is... pain. Heck, sometimes headaches are caused by not breathing well all by itself.
There's nothing mystical here. Breathing is rather central to how our bodies behave. And it's amazing how little attention people give to breathing.
Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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September 3, 2010 2:23 AM
Forbidden:
Then it's basically useless.
Golly gee, you think actual doctors know the benefit of breathing? Somehow, I imagine they do. A mild headache is not a migraine. A mild headache is not throat cancer. A mild headache is not the side effects of chemo. As for lessening severe pain, this sort of thing can work for people pre-disposed, psychologically speaking, to believe in the woo. Except it really doesn't work, and can lead a lot of people to ignore symptoms of a serious condition. I live with severe pain every day. I know first hand just how ineffective this sort of thing is - for me. I prefer something that actually works and allows me to work in spite of the pain.
Wherever there's someone saying "this is good for after chemo" or "this can help pain, it's just breathing" there's a snake oil salesman, ready to pitch a cure and do harm.
What this particular man is advocating in this particular video may not be harmful in and of itself, however, he allies himself (via belief) with the snake oil crap of Deepak Chopra and his ilk. Full stop. The harm is there.
Posted by: seemeisie
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September 3, 2010 2:40 AM
Well I'm screwed if I get throat cancer. I can't do that tongue thing.
On the plus side, I inherently have one less way of looking like an orifice.
Posted by: bornatheist
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September 3, 2010 3:43 AM
#61
...it's amazing how little attention people give to breathing.
Forbidden,
Haha. Sorry, I believe we are born knowing how to breath and don't need any techniques for it. And, I don't even consider myself a full-fledged skeptic.
#59
vycka1234 What do you do if you have anal cancer?
H.H. LMAO!!!
Posted by: bornatheist
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September 3, 2010 3:47 AM
oops, i screwed up the blockquotes. oh well.
Posted by: Franklin Percival
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September 3, 2010 4:46 AM
billygutter01 #45
Your comment:
'Death by cancer lurks far too close to home, and it's difficult to be dispassionate.'
Reminds me that many see cancers as some especially nasty agent of death. Why is this? I've had the man with the scythe come by my door a few times lately, cancer, iatrogenic blood loss, pneumonia, and some undiagnosed infection, but the prospect of death looked much the same in each case.
Why do we generically get so emotional about cancer, but accept emphysema and heart disease with relative calm?
Posted by: Tim Harris
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September 3, 2010 5:07 AM
Ah, the 'we naturally know how to breathe' put-down, etc., which provides the sort of satisfaction Dr Johnson gopt from assaulting an unoffending stone. I am not going to get into backing this fellow with a squint and his ways of dealing with cancer, but good breathing is very important for the health (including that of the heart), which is why a number of studies have shown that singing, which involves breathing well, is good for the health. Aerobic exercises and yogic breathing exercises are also good for the health. I teach singers and actors here in Japan, so I do know a little about this.
Posted by: rameshananth
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September 3, 2010 6:06 AM
The guy is called Baba Ramdev and is considered to be one of the leading spiritual lights in India. He's also very helpfully suggested a couple of yogic poses that can cure gayness (sic) and feminism. I hope he finds a couple of poses that cures him of terminal stupidity
Posted by: fiona25
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September 3, 2010 6:41 AM
#66 I know what you mean. But surely it's because cancer can strike at any time of life, to people of any age, including children. Whereas emphysema and heart disease typically strike late in life and can clearly be linked with things like smoking and poor diet (I know they are also linked with some cancers. But not all) Plus, cancer has to be fought with a type of what is essentially poison. The treatment is particularly horrific. And it is something that grows and spreads within one in a parastitic fashion.
But of course if you facing death due to something other than cancer it must feel a little hard to accept that cancer is taken so much more seriously, and viewed with more horror. The outcome is, afterall, the same.
Posted by: Medescape
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September 3, 2010 7:47 AM
He specifically says after chemo and radiation, not instead of. I don't really see any problem with the content of this specific video.
He has some other videos with some obvious pseudoscientific content (like using yoga to improve your eye sight, curing eczema, psoriasis, homosexuality ++), so he should and must be adressed, but why not focus on the more harmful claims?
Posted by: Lynn Wilhelm
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September 3, 2010 7:50 AM
I'm doomed. I can't curl my tongue like that.
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot
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September 3, 2010 8:19 AM
I just think they should have held off filming until he'd finished eating that badger...
Posted by: Tim Harris
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September 3, 2010 8:38 AM
Yes, rameshananth, the guy is a kook, and an unpleasant one, as his foolish remarks about homosexuality clearly demonstrate. But it is all too easy to be dismissive of things that don't seem to fit into Western categories, or that look as if they might be 'woo'. One thing that might be considered by those members of the Western parish who don't want to look outside their parish, is that a great many people in a number of Asian countries are, and have long been, poor, and the latest Western medical techniques are not readily available to them. That is why practices such as yoga and tai chi are, and have been, important. Naturally, there are people such as this man who exploit the power they can get from this situation, and naturally also there is a lot of mumbo-jumbo that needs to be separated off from what is of value in these practices, but this doesn't alter the fact that there are things of value in these practices. What is wrong with a bit of responsible discrimination? It is surely better than ignorant and blanket anathemas. The fact is that practices like yoga or tai-chi can and do help people to be healthy - and being active and requiring the practitioner's responsibility, they strike me as better than hanging passively about leading an unhealthy way of life and then, when something happens, throwing oneself on the latest medical techniques and relying solely on them. There's some comic whose Youtube appearances PZ has pointed us to who talks of effective medicines or practices whose derivation is non-Western and therefore suspect but which have been proved in the West to be effective; he gets a grand laugh by asserting that we call these things medicine (and not primitive mumbo-jumbo or 'woo'); why is it so difficult to give credit to those non-Western and un-scientific peoples who have discovered things that are of value? Yes, they are mixed with much that is not of value, but once again why cannot we discriminate? In Japan, where I live, kanpo, or Chinese medicines, are dispensed at hospitals along with medicines of Western provenance because the Japanese, being heirs to Chinese traditions, do not have the same sort of difficulty in accepting things of non-Western provenance as many Westerners appear to do.
Posted by: CunningLingus
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September 3, 2010 8:40 AM
So what some people seem to be taking offence at is not that this guy is an utter imbecile, but that he's just not as much of an imbecile in this breathing video, so we should forget all his other dross and appreciate his showing us how to breathe with a curly tongue ?
Posted by: Alan B
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September 3, 2010 8:41 AM
That was 2:12 of my remaining life that I was not prepared to waste.
Posted by: KG
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September 3, 2010 8:49 AM
This is only true of the tongue-curling, not of the initial breathing out through one nostril, which he simply says is "good for cancer". (Whether acquiring it, or curing it, is not specified.)
I don't have any such difficulty. For example, I have often taken opium derivatives for pain relief, and any form of exercise, including yoga and tai chi, is likely to do some good. I simply like to have evidence that "medicines" work, do not contain unnecessary toxic ingredients, and are not made out of the body parts of endangered animals. Is there such evidence for the kanpo remedies you mention?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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September 3, 2010 8:52 AM
And that's why it is important to expose these things as utter frauds when they make claims like the video above and start to move the poor away from woo and superstition and to treatments that actually work.
Nice false dichotomy served with a side dish of ignoring the point.
When people do yoga or tai-chi as exercise. Great. Awesome. I do yoga. It keeps me somewhat in shape and flexible.
However many of the leading practitioners of these things also claim they have magical healing properties and they certainly do not. There is no Chi. There is no Moksha to be achieved through yoga, there is no Vishnu to which yoga brings you closer.
Doing yoga and or tai-chi is no guarantee you will be healthy and free of any needs to actual real medical attention. Making claims that this is the case just enforces the wooness of the platform from which you are preaching.
There's nothing wrong with giving credit to practices that work. IF you can show they work. Relying on "ancient Chinese secrets" or anecdotes of their efficacy is not demonstrating they work.
That's just relying on old wives tales.
If these things have been through the rigorous testing and studies that actual medicine has gone through.
Great.
Can you tell me they have?
Posted by: A.K.
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September 3, 2010 8:54 AM
This article on the charlatan in question was written by Narendra Nayak, the president of the Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations:
http://nirmukta.com/2010/04/22/yogi-in-politics-a-rationalists-thoughts-on-baba-ramdev/
Posted by: Ray Moscow
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September 3, 2010 9:12 AM
@Tim @73: Yes, yoga and tai chi help people be healthy, like about any other form of exercise. However, they do not cure or even prevent cancer.
I've lost two friends to cancer who were very avid tai chi practitioners -- one who was a famous martial-arts coach (and a former all-China gold medallist). And I've seen other tai chi folks die of the same things as everybody else.
Good, yes. Magic shield, no.
Posted by: Tim Harris
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September 3, 2010 9:33 AM
Oh, you Big Dumb Chimp! Although I suppose the response is pretty bloody predictable. Where have I said that it is not important to expose frauds? The subsequent dichotomy you so proudly discover is not a false one. You yourself say that you do yoga as an exercise to keep healthy. Do you think you would be better off not doing it and other exercise and lounging around drinking and smoking too much and in the end relying on some doctor to patch you up because you have not looked after your own health? (Please note that is not even to begin to suggest, a la Bill Maher, that everybody is responsible for any illness that happens to afflict him or her - as a sufferer from a congenital illness and having just had an operation for it, I know a little about this.) I have nowhere asseted or claimed that doing yoga or tai-chi or singing or aerobic exercises is a guarantee that one will not fall ill and will not need medical attention. Can you please read what I say, and stop forcing your boring thoughts on me? Kindly re-read what I say about the importance of discrimination. Where have I spoken of ch'i or relying on Chinese old wives' tales? I am glad you agree that credit may be given where practices that work are concerned. That was precisely my point. Are you genuinely unable o read, or is it knee-jerk Western chauvinism that prompts your response? As for 'kanpo' in the Japanese medical world, it wouldn't be used unless it had been tested for its efficacy. Japanese medicine is second to none.
Posted by: Tim Harris
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September 3, 2010 9:38 AM
And if you are going to reply, Rev, you'll have to wait for an answer. It's 10.30 at night in Japan, and I'm off to bed.
Posted by: Tim Harris
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September 3, 2010 9:44 AM
And, yes, Ray Moscow, I am well aware that yoga and tai chi are not magic shields and do not cure cancer or a variety of other disorders, and if you take the trouble to read very carefully what I wrote above you will discover that nowhere do I assert that they do.
Posted by: JackC
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September 3, 2010 9:58 AM
I love the way at the end he states:
"... can be done three to eleven, or even twenty one times..."
Minimum of three
Maximum of eleven
... or more.
I assume five is right out.
I really hate it when people do not understand the concept of "maximum".
"Get 5, 10 or up to 15% off - or more!"
JC
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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September 3, 2010 10:00 AM
Nowhere, nor did I claim that you did.
Yes it is.
These aren't the only two choices. Hence the dichotomy and the false one at that.
Yes this is true. My bad.
Yes stating an opinion, boring or not, is forcing thoughts on you. Grow up.
Next thing you know me extolling the virtues of smoked pork bellies is forcing the thought of bacon=good on you.
yawn.
Discrimination is a good thing when you're talking about medical treatment. I am 100% going to discriminate against "treatments" that have not had to have their efficacy demonstrated beyond the emotional attachment to tradition.
It has nothing to with it being Chinese, Japanese, native American, Zulu or from mars. It has to do with not just trusting traditional methods because they are traditional or popular.
See what you did there? You inserted Chinese wives tales instead of what I said about wives tales.
This isn't a western discrimination against eastern practices, it's about discrimination against untested and unproven treatments.
Credit is due to practices that can be shown to work and shown to work scientificially not just said to work or trusted to work because they've been used for a long time.
Big difference.
Take your poor persecution complex and cram it up your ass. Why it is warranted in other aspects this is far from the case. This has nothing to do with it being eastern or western or southern or anything. It has to do with trusting treatments just because they are traditional or that many people use them.
i don't know about Kanpo, but the bolded sentence was the funniest thing you've written so far.
What about acupuncture?
Assertion without support.
I'll requote something you said above.
I have no problem giving them credit IF they can actually demonstrate that it really is of value.
Just saying so or pointing to centuries of use or number of people that use it is not a demonstration of its efficacy. It is merely a demonstration of the power of appeals to popularity, emotion and tradition.
So please, argue against my case against untested traditional methods but please leave the claims of western chauvinism alone.
They're ridiculous and unwarranted.
I'm equally as critical of western woo as of eastern woo.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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September 3, 2010 10:04 AM
No problem though with my ADD I'll see I'f I can remember to check back tomorrow.
Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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September 3, 2010 10:05 AM
Why is it so difficult to give credit to a blind man driving his car and occasionally staying in the right lane?
Anything they get has to be TESTED before we know that it works, then guess what...it becomes scientific medicine. Everything not is garbage.
Posted by: billygutter01
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September 3, 2010 10:06 AM
@#66
You're quite right that of all the diseases, cancer is largely viewed as one of the nastiest, its name spoken in hushed and sinister tones.
For my own part, cancer is specifically fiendish only because my mother and other family members have sucuccumbed to it. If this yogi had been claiming to be able to cure emphysema, for example, I'd likely not have been so irked - unless a family member or friend had died of emphysema.
Naturally, I should take issue just as strongly with any woomeister flogging snake oil of any description, but I'm an evolving ape and still prone to emotional bias.
I've read, upthread, a few comments of the general notion that: well, he does say after chemotheray, so it's really just supplemental.
But if you read the descrition of the video, you'll find this little gem:
So, yeah. He's a asshole.
Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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September 3, 2010 10:16 AM
oh and selling woo as cancer treatments is stealing from the sick.
Posted by: Andyo
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September 3, 2010 10:36 AM
Tim Harris, the more you mention the word "Western" when arguing for "alternative" medicine, the less credibility you'll get. Just sayin'
And please do tell how "kanpo" is such a great thing. Is it that the Japanese mix herbs and acupuncture just the right way, as opposed to the Chinese?
Posted by: Pacal
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September 3, 2010 10:46 AM
If you think this guy is bad, just google Sai Baba, the so-called Godman. Among Indian fake fakirs he is if not the worst among the worst. One of his favorite tricks is conjering gold necklaces out of thin air. He was once caught doing this trick by palming on video.
Apparently India as lots of these charlatons.
Posted by: stuv.myopenid.com
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September 3, 2010 11:29 AM
No time to check right now if this has been mentioned before, but... did anyone catch that little bit at the end there?
"...can be done for 3 to 11, or even 21 times."
Wow. Good thing morphine isn't prescribed like that.
Posted by: Forbidden
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September 3, 2010 11:35 AM
Caine,
It's been my experience that doctors have become so specialized that they no longer see patients as people, but more like the way mechanics see cars. They're focused on attacking the disease, not how the patient is actually feeling. And that's fine. But it's not the totality of treatment. Of course not. And no one is saying breathing and meditation will cure cancer, nor remove the effects of chemo. It can, however, help with the pain and fatigue. The aftereffects of chemo was once described to me as if someone ran over you with a truck, then backed over you, then forward again. With techniques to deal with it, it can feel like the truck only ran you over, then backed up over you. Not a cure, but not worthless. If it works, then it's not woo. But you just said it did work? Which is it? And if it doesn't work, how does someone end up ignoring more serious symptoms of what mysterious condition? It's only ineffective if you're doing it wrong. However, it is true, that meditation rather takes up all your time. But when you're in such a state that you can't do anything active anyway, it helps.And you're thinking of it wrong. It's not a substitute. It's an addition. When you're had the chemo, taken the drugs, had the surgery, etc, and the side effects are still screwing you up
So things that lessen pain and do actually help should be completely discarded because snake oil salesmen exist? By that reasoning, you should never clean your car with a chamois because ShamWow salesmen exist. Your behavior is no different than the woo people. You're rejecting it without any rational basis.Posted by: MosesZD
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September 3, 2010 12:08 PM
Why is he fat? I would think he knew Yoga for curing cancer, he'd know some Yoga for dropping a few pounds.
Posted by: MosesZD
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September 3, 2010 12:13 PM
While I can roll my tongue, and even touch my nose with it, I can't wiggle my ears. So I'm sure that, while I'll be cured of cancer (wink wink), have been very popular with a small number of ladies, I'll die of something the ear-wigglers can avoid...
Posted by: MosesZD
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September 3, 2010 12:21 PM
Once upon a time there was all this stuff. And we did it all, because nobody knew what worked and what didn't.
Then came science. And we tested all the stuff. We saw some was well-fit and called it MEDICINE.
The other was the dog's bollocks and we call it woo. It doesn't matter where it comes from. It doesn't matter where it's going. It doesn't matter how my mom, wife, daughters, brother or anyone else feel about it -- if it doesn't work, it's woo. Regardless of the geographic origin of it...
Posted by: MosesZD
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September 3, 2010 12:27 PM
Kanpo is Traditional Chinese Medicine as practiced in Japan. While on occasion some of the herbal remedies are effective (and have been incorporated into modern medicine via prescription/OTC medicine) the vast bulk of it not otherwise any more effective than any other woo-based medicine.
Because, well, it is woo-based medicine.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/3m7DJ5IDuekRrDecB7fQFVvUILuLjxgy#f34f3
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September 3, 2010 12:31 PM
MosesZD
Brit slang fail - "the dog's bollocks" is a superlative, a bit like "the bee's knees".
I think you meant that the other stuff was just plain bollocks.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmgK1nKtblU6rtbovyrdEM18Mxk6dOr5rI
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September 3, 2010 12:55 PM
Interestingly enough, I just got a press release from our local health department for a series of classes they're offering on living with chronic disease. One of the things they're offering to teach is "better breathing techniques."
Posted by: InfraredEyes
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September 3, 2010 1:21 PM
Far as I'm concerned, anyone who says this about a supposed curative technique should immediately forfeit his Handing-Out-Advice-on-the-Internet license. UR DOIN IT RONG is the perennial excuse of the charlatan whose snake oil doesn't work.
Posted by: pankajsingh911
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September 3, 2010 1:38 PM
@ #41
Although what Judy says makes sense, I have seen the original Hindi version of this video, and this guy actually claims that his technique makes cancer disappear. He then goes on to show a couple of idiots who claim a reduction in the size of lumps!
Sadly, he is quite big in India,and even educated people follow him. He sure deserves lynching,but I don't see that happening soon, with the kind of following this dingleberry has.
Posted by: virtual
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September 3, 2010 3:05 PM
Baba Ramdev makes lot of tall claims, which are rarely based on sound science, but overall I think the work he has done has had a positive impact
- As he is a spiritual leader (religious people give more weight to what he says) he has brought physical exercise to masses in India, (more in Northern India where he is popular) I personally know so many families who had never done any exercise in their life and are doing daily yoga (and surprising thing is that it is sticky i.e. people have continued to do this for years). When you go from zero exercises to even a little the effects are remarkable (+ some placebo, thinking that this will cure your diabetes)
- He campaigns against all kinds of soda drinks, (of course with the aid of many myths like you can use coca-cola to clean toilets) with obesity and diabetes on rise in India; this has had a positive impact
- We should expose what medical miracles he promises are false but somehow preserve the correct message about physical exercise
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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September 3, 2010 4:51 PM
Poor PZ. He goes to all that trouble to champion the cause of face-furniture, and then this chap turns up and effortlessly tramples all over the credibility of the beard. Just remember; it is not the beard's fault that it is held prisoner by the face of a woo-monger. Free the fuzz!
Caine, Fleur du mal OM @ 54;
You are right on the money with this. Even where the advice itself is not harmful, or is even helpful and prudent, this kind of swami 'mystic' (potency of magical swami ability enhanced by biologist urine, naturally...) must be viewed as a package.
He is not advocating breathing exercises alone. He is almost certainly working on the assumption that these exercises have an effect beyond the bio-medical, such as the idea that the exercises 'align energy flows' or 'recharge chakras' or some other suitably nonsensical newage doctorine.
In this particular video, he may not make any outrageous claims, but have no doubt that he will tell his devoted followers that he can cure serious or even fatal diseases using 'healing energy' (whatever that means), and that he can sit meditating under a tree for six months without food or water with no ill effects. This kind of mysticism is, at its very core, antithetical to scientific medicine and reasoned thought. It can never be 'harmless' because it creates an irrational environment in relation to the understanding of the human body that breeds a situation where the really pernicious forms of woo can take root unchallenged.
I hesitate to use this term (demi-quoting George W Bush makes me nauseous*), but this is one of those cases where you actually are either with us or against us. You either acknowlege that science is the only valid basis for medicine or you do not. You either reject mysticism entirely or you have at least one foot in the same camp as the type of woo-peddlers that lead people to turn down efficacious medical treatment in favour of some crystal therapy mumbo-jumbo that results in their needless death.
* Urggghh. Now I feel dirty...
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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September 3, 2010 5:02 PM
I thought Caine and I were already plotting that. A hot wax job, but with habanero pepper oil and nitroglycerin in the wax to enhance the enjoyment of the depilosing actions. Should be interesting on facial hair...Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 3, 2010 5:08 PM
If it works, then it's not woo.
you have to define "works", here.
a placebo "works", in the sense that sometimes it can make a patient feel better.
It doesn't actually treat any underlying causes, and has no mechanism for doing so. Doctors would also not claim that it did.
this is different than woo, which might, in some few cases, have the same effect as a placebo, but that doesn't mean it is treating anything.
IOW, no, woo does not "work".
Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 3, 2010 5:10 PM
...and, unlike doctors, purveyors of woo inevitably claim it has a mechanistic effect that CURES.
which, of course, is a lie.
so, woo bad.
clear?
Posted by: pallabbasu
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September 3, 2010 5:10 PM
This guy was caught because he was prescribing magical remedy containing pulverized human bone.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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September 3, 2010 5:13 PM
Nerd of Redhead, OM @ 103;
Ooh! An 'ebil athiest conspirasy'! Just like the ones Glenn Beck is always warning America about.
Count me in!
Posted by: KG
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September 3, 2010 5:55 PM
Article on kanpo from Evidence Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (hardly likely to be biased against kanpo, one would think). Quote from the abstract:
[emphasis added]You were saying, Tim Harris?
Posted by: MosesZD
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September 3, 2010 6:16 PM
I might have been thinking "the dog's business."
Posted by: Franklin Percival
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September 3, 2010 7:18 PM
MosesZD #95
Yair, right, and bearded eastern trolls are going to tell us that dark matter/energy is understood in their ancient writings. Ommm.
Get a grip and grow up pray, otherwise why don't you just fuck off out of here?
Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook
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September 3, 2010 9:09 PM
Hey Caine, I'm with you on the twat thing but IMO douche is an *excellent* term of abuse. It's something damaging, unnecessary, bad for women, and pushes the patriarchal idea of woman=icky, unless polished and groomed and perfumed and plasticised beyond all signs of humanity. Douche=bad. Yup. (Yeah, there's a few medical exceptions.)
Posted by: Krystalline Apostate
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September 4, 2010 3:05 AM
Allow me to bump in here for a moment. I don't do yoga, so can't speak to that. Been doing tai-chi for going on 18 years here. TCC is far more than some aesthetic set of calisthenics. It's a form of stress management, a powerful discipline, a meditation, & a martial art. It of course didn't protect me from contracting emphysema from 31 years of smoking (I've quit going on 2 years now), nor did it protect me from an inherited thyroid condition. Nor is it a weight-management program. I am however more powerful, & better balanced than I was @ 1/2 my age. I put in about 2-3 1/2 hours a day practice. So no, it's not the equivalent of walking in the park, or push-ups, or anysuch thing like that. If you examine enough of the literature, it's usually some anecdotal story w/no empirical data to back it up, but if you look in other categories, you'll find similar woo stories ('found jay-sus', 'chanted such 'n such' or even 'ballet gave me the strength') that indicate it's actually the person who managed, not the tool. Whenever I teach, I tell people it's not some magical shield, it's a healthy tool, & if you abuse your body badly, there's nothing that's going to defend against that. Unfortunately, in Chinese (MA) culture, if someone does get sick from over-drinking or smoking, a lot of these dopes claim that 'well, they just weren't doing it right'. What crap. Oh pshaw. A simpler & more effective frame is that 'chi' is defined as the energy 1 already has. There's pre-natal chi (what you inherit) as opposed to post-natal chi (what you inhale, eat, & drink). Which makes more sense when you subtract the mystical horse-pucky. Sadly, too many new age woo-sters love the mystical crap. Mystical sells. Some woman a few weeks back started going into the 'oh, look, everybody's getting all these cancers nowadays', I stopped her, & told her that humanity's ALWAYS had cancer, they just didn't have a name for it back then.Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian
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September 4, 2010 6:33 AM
Here's a recent case of a Indian fraud who did get lynched (although not directly for the quackery)Posted by: Kemist
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September 4, 2010 11:43 AM
Well, in case they don't...
breathing
Posted by: Kemist
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September 4, 2010 12:20 PM
So can heart disease and strokes. I knew somebody who died of stroke at 35. Like most who have strokes at that age he was not obese and had no hypertension problem.
People tend to view strokes as a fast and painless way to die - they often forget how disabled one can be if he/she survive. Being unable to express yourself, being uncoordinated, having permanent paralysis or dyskinesias is no less debilitating that chemo.
Similarly heart disease also touches the young, who oftentimes had active lives before heart disease took it away from them.
As somebody who is presently undergoing testing for something that is probably heart disease, I can tell you that it's not much more pleasant than cancer. I was pretty active before - I used to jog for hours on end - but now I'm overweight since I can't even walk without feeling extremely tired and out of breath. When I visited a friend of mine who is on chemotherapy, she had to wait for me when we went walking.
And what's more, when I tell people I can't do such or such thing because I get tired, they tend to blame it on my being lazy, and even more if I do tell them I have a heart problem - problem which is, of course, my fault.
People tend to be less afraid of things if they are under the impression that it can't happen to them with the right actions on their part - and that is their (false) impression of heart disease. There are attempts to do this also with cancer, which is deplorable, and also despicable.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp
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September 4, 2010 1:48 PM
Your definition sounds like a very western re-defining of the original meaning. How is chi treated in acupuncture and other traditional Chinese treatments? Is it not the same chi that is supposedly "manipulated" through tai-chi or even geomancy via feng shui?
Why even support or continue to prop up the idea of chi by redefining it? If the chi of tai-chi is the same chi as feng shui or acupuncture and herbal treatments, it is woo.
I don't doubt the benefits of tai-chi, but I think you do it a disservice relying on chi as an explanation.
Any well designed system of exercise can increase balance, stamina, strength, focus and reduce stress. Yoga does all of these as does any system that addresses more than just any one or few aspects of health.
You're right that mystical sells and when anyone I've every come across mentions chi or qi, they're selling mysticism.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo
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September 4, 2010 1:54 PM
This is a completely meaningless use of the word 'energy.'
Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline.
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September 4, 2010 3:48 PM
I seem to prefer "preëmptive".Posted by: Ichthyic
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September 4, 2010 4:21 PM
hmm.
supposedly, 50% of people don't have the gene that allows one to roll one's tongue.
I guess if they get throat cancer, they're totally fucked.
:P
Posted by: Vicki, Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief
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September 4, 2010 8:41 PM
My brother-in-law had a stroke a couple of years ago, at 44. He has been left with significant aphasia, one hand that doesn't work at all, and difficulty walking.
He's one of the lucky ones: he's still there, meaningfully himself, still able to enjoy life and interact with his family and friends.
Meanwhile, we think of heart disease as something that happens to middle-aged and older people, but high school students periodically drop dead during sports practice because of undiagnosed heart problems.
Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi
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September 6, 2010 3:02 AM
@118: I prefer prophylactic.
Is it just me, or does Yogi Bear-a keep saying 'Shit really can be done'? I don't know why he needs to advertise it. Like we couldn't tell his whole routine was shit right from the get-go.
Posted by: narendra
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September 6, 2010 5:27 PM
The fellow is now trying to enter politics by starting his own political party. Please read my write up about him in nirmukta.com