Pharyngula

Posted by: MetzO'Magic | September 6, 2010 2:29 PM

A new group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves.

Jebus. You need hip boots to wade through irony that thick. And pro tip for the JW bots: it's 'gnu atheists'. Pay attention. Get it right next time.

Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 6, 2010 2:32 PM

They managed to find an atheist fed up with communist censorship who shifted to Xianity and creationism, who says:

Also, instead of unfairly attributing the amazing designs manifest in creation to blind chance, I and not a few other scientists ask ourselves, ‘How did God design this?’

So instead of actually finding out how the structures of life evolved, he asks his question, and gets no answer.

Brilliant.

Glen Davidson

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/vM7UePx6gYIABXkdWww4UWymJw--#224be | September 6, 2010 2:35 PM

On our side door are several stickers. One is ADT. One tells the fire dept. about our pets. One displays a city ordinance barring solicitors. And one says "Thou shalt not proselytize."
It's very quiet here.

Posted by: koyote_ken | September 6, 2010 2:42 PM

That's funny stuff. I live in a heavily-Mormonized neighborhood in Arizona where the door-to-door stuff goes on all the time. You can see 'em coming a mile away. White shirts, black pants, black tie. Always teen-age or early twenty-something boys. I suppose after several times of explaining to them the utter waste of their time trying to get me to believe in their imaginary friend, (and explainng to them the criminal record of Joseph Smith) they also added my address to the "Do Not Proselytize" list. Haven't had a knock on the door since. Funny stuff.....

Posted by: dannyhaszard | September 6, 2010 2:45 PM

Jehovah's Witness modus operandi.

Jehovah's Witnesses are schooled in 'finding common ground',if you like pink elephants they will become experts on pink elephants. That's the beauty of religion and superstition, it has no limits.

Religion is the most profitable legal business because religions can misquote, misrepresent, and use unethical practices without fear of punishment. It's the absolute best way to scam people I have yet seen
--
Danny Haszard http://www.dannyhaszard.com

Posted by: Sastra | September 6, 2010 2:49 PM

I quickly skimmed over several of the articles, and noticed a couple interesting points.

1.) The JW's are putting most of their eggs in the "evolution is false" basket. They seem to concede that, if evolution happened, then atheism is the default -- but don't worry, here's a scientist who disagrees with it. This is then another example of Christians bending over with a kick-me sign. Nice going.

2.) After waxing eloquent about how "true worship" encourages "self-sacrificing love, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, self-control, marital loyalty and fidelity, and respect for others," they defend both the slaughters in the Old Testament and the mass human destruction at Armageddon by insisting that the Wicked really deserve everything they get. Nice.

I don't have a problem with people going door to door to argue for a cause of some kind: political, environmental, social -- or religious. If I would not get huffy over someone coming to my door to sign a petition to stop such-and-such, or join this-or-that, why would I be upset over someone trying to persuade me to change my religious views? At least they're putting their views up for discussion -- or, maybe, going through the motions of putting their views up for discussion -- and I generally prefer that to the placid assumption that religious discussions should be cut off as soon as they begin, and the majority win over the minority by default.

Posted by: A. Nuran | September 6, 2010 2:53 PM

The best I ever saw was one Summer when I stayed with some Bahai friends. The Jovies came to the door and S said he couldn't talk to them right now. Could they come back on such-and-such a date?

Came that date, my then-fiancee was up from California. She, S's wife and I were in the kitchen when the God Botherers showed up. S took them tea and cookies and started to talk. They started to look nervous. Then he rushed to the bedroom and brought out books. They began to look positively uncomfortable and rushed out of the house soon afterward, never to return.

"S, what did you do to them?"

"Do to them? I just got out their holy books and our holy books and looked for areas of agreement."

Posted by: melissa.b.elliott | September 6, 2010 3:00 PM

My mother is a die-hard Christian, but JW baiting has always been a hobby of hers. One time an older woman and a very young woman came, obviously the girl's first time on the door-to-door beat. My mom started asking the hard questions (from a Christian point of view) and the girl got all interested, prompting the older woman to say some spiel about deceivers and whisk the girl away. We moved shortly after that and we've been in rural areas ever since so I don't know if we got on The List.

Just about the only good thing that can be said about JWs is that they spread literacy in third-world countries. They are a truly creepy bunch.

Sigh. I wish someone would ask my mother the hard questions from a secular point of view, but she'd just react like the older woman in the story. I certainly can't do it myself as being an unjobbed recent graduate puts me in a bad enough position as it is. I think she's still disappointed I chose to become a computer scientist rather than a missionary like she always wanted.

And now my father is on an antediluvian anthropology kick. You know, pre-Noah's Ark, which presupposes that Noah's Ark is literally true. Help!!!!

Posted by: kieran | September 6, 2010 3:01 PM

They don't call to our house anymore, not for nearly twenty years. They called one sunday during dinner and were politely told to leave. The next day my father had a quiet word with one leaders who happened to work in the same college. So twenty years later they've never called to us or our neighbours.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 6, 2010 3:07 PM

I used to be polite and nice to the Jehovah's Witnesses who come here. I was raised to be polite and I didn't see much harm in what they do, even if they are annoying idiots, so I'd be nice to them.

Nowadays I'm not so polite anymore. Not since they handed me a copy of "Awake!" that was almost entirely on the topic of "the man is the head of the household and womenfolk should obey him in everything, because God said so."

Sure, I know that a lot of Christian groups believe that. But when they go around trying to get people to accept a misogynistic view, when they actively go around knocking on doors spreading propaganda aimed at making wives think that they are committing a sin against God if they have their own opinion... That's just sick and evil.

Posted by: Matrim | September 6, 2010 3:13 PM

I will say this: one of the best airplane conversations I had was with a JW. I sat next to one during a trans-Atlantic flight. She didn't mention she was a JW until partway through a story (about two hours into our conversation) to clarify something about something else. I said something to the effect of "Really? I never would have guessed you were a Jehova's Witness," and she said something like "Well, you know, most people don't really like to talk about that stuff." I laughed and said "Pardon me for being stereotypical, but isn't it kinda weird that a JW doesn't want to evangelize?" She laughed back and said "I guess, if you really want to talk about it I'd be more than happy to discuss it." I told her that I was good, and we picked up where we left off. We mostly talked about Star Trek, Doctor Who, and Firefly. We listened to each other's MP3 players, and generally had a good time. It was a real pity, she was a very smart and funny girl...but I did appreciate that she wasn't evangelizing to me.

I've never had the pleasure of screwing with the door-to-door variety. I've played around with the Mormons, though.

Posted by: raven | September 6, 2010 3:16 PM

JWs aren't just amusingly bizarre. It is an ugly cult that causes a huge amount of damage to people's lives. They use the mind control technique of isolation a lot. If a family member leaves the cult, they are shunned and lose their family and any JW friends.

Estimates are that half the people born into the cult eventually leave. Converts come and go pretty rapidly as well.

culthelp.org:

There are now more persons who have resigned or left the Watchtower Society than active Witnesses.

Posted by: KT_Josh | September 6, 2010 3:18 PM

Of all the door-to-door proselytizers and salesmen that are near me, I find the JWs to be the least annoying. They don't seem to be fans of the hard sell (unlike that little shit newspaper kid. No. For the 20th time, I don't want to buy a subscription to the LA Times). A simple "No thank you. I'm not interested," and I get handed a Watchtower, told god bless, and wished a good day.

Mormons take forever to get rid of in comparison (still not as bad as the newspaper kid though).

I take it back. The least annoying door-to-door person was a local artist offering to repaint the numbers on the curb. A "no thanks" and he gave me his card, said to call him if I changed my mind, and mentioned that he takes good weed as payment if I don't have cash. I had neither, but it was amusing.

Posted by: raven | September 6, 2010 3:21 PM

culthelp.org:

There is a long history of suicides within the Jehovah Witness Watchtower organization. Some experts have estimated the rate of suicides associated with the society to be five to ten times the rate of the general population. The exact number of suicides is impossible to obtain for a variety of reasons.

Some claim that JWs have a high suicide rate. They also have a a lot of child sexual abuse.

Posted by: a.human.ape | September 6, 2010 3:33 PM

I recently looked at an Awake magazine I found on a bus here in south Florida. It had the usual Discovery Institute bullshit "If it's complex the designer did it".

A few months ago while I was waiting for a bus a man stopped his car, got out, and tried to give me the Awake thing. I told him I was an atheist. He said "That's too bad". I should have said "It's too bad you're a fucking idiot". Instead I repeatedly told him his religion is bullshit until he got the hint and left.

I often wonder what it must be like to live in a real country instead of the insane asylum called the United States of Jeebus.

-- Human Ape

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/O.jullMj0I2VvJaxMMVeNKSfOPf73voLSxJAe9PdlOWwi8Y-#258ec | September 6, 2010 3:36 PM

the irony illustrates how much of religion is about social organization and not really about "theology" but "us" and "them"
We are rather physically powerless primates, one of our real big strengths is our ability to make cooperative social organizations. Religion thought and belief makes a convenient way to identify who is "us" and who is "Them"

I can't but "smell" the fear surrounding most religion particularly the fundamentalist varieties. there is the air of a cornered animal about them.
They are seldom seeking "The Peace Of God" as much as they are seeking safety from the fear of death.
reason as little effect on that and I just do not have the time to waste in getting into arguments with the mentally ill so I am usually just rude and tell them to go away now and that I do not want to talk to them at all.

Posted by: raven | September 6, 2010 3:45 PM

What is wrong with being a Jehovah's Witness A person that is born into the religion will have almost their entire circle of family ... during the past half century and more, they have also declined to do ...... It appears around two thirds of all Jehovah's Witness children leave. ... www.jwfacts.com/.../wrong-with-being-jehovahs-witness.php - Cached

I said above that half of all kids born into the JW's leave. This source says 2/3's.

Rather than being creatively rude to the door knockers, it might be kinder to hand them some anti-JW literature and tell them that they too, can be one of the lucky 2 out of 3 that escape the cult.

I'm usually polite to the JWs and Mormons. The missionaries are forced by the church to do that and they usually aren't too happy to be wandering down strange driveways. The Mormons are just literally kids, usually they are coerced into doing a mission after high school.

That will change as soon as I get some deconversion literature to hand to them from somewhere. I'll still be polite but more helpful. Yes, like millions, you too can escape the mental prison of toxic religion.

Posted by: dannyhaszard | September 6, 2010 3:47 PM

Lifelong Jehovah's Witnesses dissident speaks out on JW belief system .

A) They are at your door to recruit you for their watchtower society corporation,they will say that "we are just here to share a message from the Bible" this is deception right off.

B) Their 'message' creed is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple."

C) Their anti-blood transfusion ban against *whole blood* has killed thousands.

D) once they recruit you they will "love bomb" you in cult fashion to also recruit your family & friends or cut them off.
----
Danny Haszard Jehovah's Witness X 33 years http://www.dannyhaszard.com

Posted by: Wandermaske | September 6, 2010 3:55 PM

Two days ago, the JWs visited me for the first time in almost ten years. I don´t know how they start their visits in other countries, especially in the USA, but here in Germany they seem very reluctant to mention who they are. Isn´t it strange to talk for an hour about religion without mentioning your own by name?

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 6, 2010 3:58 PM

A new group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves.

Are Mooneybaum secret Jehovah's Witnesses?

Posted by: Sastra | September 6, 2010 4:05 PM

danny haszard #36 wrote:

B) Their 'message' creed is a false Gospel that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.The problem with this is it's not just a cute fairy tale,Jesus warned of the false prophets who would claim "..look he is here in the wilderness,or see here he is at the temple."

Hm. I wonder if danny here failed to tailor the message to the audience with a cut 'n paste.

Using the Bible to warn atheists against "false" non-Biblical Christians doesn't make a lot of sense, danny. Although we do share some similar concerns, that's just not one of them.

Posted by: Left_Wing_Fox | September 6, 2010 4:20 PM

My only encounter with door-to-door preachers was... frustrating. High school kid on vacation at a beach house, and two beautiful girls my ange knock at the door. Did they notice me earlier and want to introduce themselves? Were they inviting neighbourhood teens to party? No! It's a pair of cute Jehovah's Witnesses trying to convince me that the world's government would unite under god!

And that was the closest I got to meeting a girl at the beach. =(

Posted by: MJP | September 6, 2010 4:28 PM

Strangely, I have never encountered these people, and I live in the South.

Posted by: Anubis Bloodsin the third | September 6, 2010 4:34 PM

Seems the cults are waking up themselves to the fact that there are those that are not the usual "other religiotards" but worse of no sky fairy delusion at all.
And they are very very frightened!

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | September 6, 2010 4:54 PM

I only have had some religious people knock on my door once; don't even know who they wre, because that was when I was a child in Germany and I was confused at them trying to convert me, since I was already a christian (didn't occur to me that different denominations see each other as not-really-christian). Since moving to the US, I've lived in apartments, so they never stopped by.

Now I'm irrationally semi-excited at the realization that I'll be moving into a house in Fargo, so I can have some "that one time [religious group x] knocked on my door..." stories, too :-p

Posted by: hyperdeath | September 6, 2010 5:00 PM

My only encounter with door-to-door preachers was... frustrating. High school kid on vacation at a beach house, and two beautiful girls my ange knock at the door. Did they notice me earlier and want to introduce themselves? Were they inviting neighbourhood teens to party? No! It's a pair of cute Jehovah's Witnesses trying to convince me that the world's government would unite under god!

The Children of God certainly had a strong advantage over the Jehovah's Witnesses on that front.

Posted by: Newfie | September 6, 2010 5:12 PM

Pat Condell's latest is about the 'door knockers'.

Posted by: Sastra | September 6, 2010 5:15 PM

dannyhaszard #47 wrote:

The 1914 for Jesus second coming thingy is solid ammo to use against them if they come knocking as well as the active JW's who will be reading this.

Yes, as well as the failed predictions made back in the 70's. It's just that the list you presented seemed to assume a concern for heterodoxy.

A few years back some JW's came to the door and I invited them on the porch to talk, telling them upfront that I was an atheist. They said that was just fine, and so then, first of all, did I believe that the Bible was the word of God? When I said "no" they seemed quite surprised. It apparently wasn't what they expected me to say, for it went off-script, or at least counter to their experience. I pointed out that they seemed to be a little unclear then on the meaning of the word "atheist," and spelled it out a bit. Even then, they still needed to be told that this meant that no, I do NOT believe the Bible is the word of God.

What happened next was interesting, because the couple cheerfully tried to dive in to what was clearly outside their comfort zone. A high point was their telling me that supernatural miracles had indeed been scientifically verified, verifying the existence of God. When I asked for an example, instead of trotting out some holy vision or weeping statue, as Catholics might, I was proudly given "the birth of a BABY!!!"

Um. No. I didn't dissolve into smiling agreement that God must exist -- not even when they brought up BABIES. We were so clearly coming at the question from different angles, that I could see it would take a looong time to find the common ground to start from, and so they had to take comfort from discovering that yes indeed, the atheist accepted evolution just as they suspected, so this was all about evolution, really.

I thought the encounter interesting, though. Hardly anyone ever brings up religion with me in meatspace. I'm more used to apologists.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/nLzNsvBzjcVWHqXNyEN1lcQmrB7cxEBb#3b6bf | September 6, 2010 5:20 PM

@j-brisby #41

At least the atheists depicted on the cover are presented as a reasonably clean-cut cross-section of society, and not gross caricatures. For the JWs, that's progress. We're not monsters!

ShaunOTD

Posted by: Rorschach | September 6, 2010 5:21 PM

The only JW's I ever come across are the ones in Hospital bleeding to death.There will always be a JW cop there with the family, to make sure no blood products are given(what this constitutes can sometimes be a matter of interpretation, but fear not, they have a list).It's sad if it's young people, who become victims of their brainwashed parents.

Btw, I find this

A new group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves.

to be a really nice and revealing slip-up.

Posted by: Multicellular | September 6, 2010 5:25 PM

I had two JW's come by one day and we had a nice, long discussion on many topics. We finally got to the bible being a good source of morality so I immediately brought up slavery, asking them to name one passage in the bible saying it was wrong. One guy did all the talking and the other stood in back with his bible looking up stuff, when I asked the slavery question he began quickly flipping pages to find any passage to counter my argument but obviously never produced anything.

We had a nice, civil conversation and I invited him to return the following week with the answer to that and other questions. They never returned and I've never been bothered since, but I keep hoping.

Posted by: Mike Mixer | September 6, 2010 5:43 PM

My mom's a Jehovah's Witless. She actually had this particular Awake the last time I saw her a couple weeks back. Funny thing is she had hidden it in a drawer and I found it looking for her mailbox key. She just knew I would go all Louis C.K. on the thing if I saw it. She still cringes when I ask her how the suck-broom sales are doing (my little name for her going out IN-Service).

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmKoZZW1bfPWwVICBRt8fSLiYWHHSiKVGk | September 6, 2010 5:45 PM

Obviously the JW's are famous for this stuff, but the encounter I remember most was years ago and it was with the Christadelphians.

It was a college-age man and woman about my age (the man did almost all the talking), but I was perfectly willing to have a long-drawn out conversation as to why I called myself a secular humanist, and what that meant. Like they had never met someone before who didn't use that label as an epithet, and were seemingly curious as to why someone would be proud of the label.

They didn't run away immediately, and were willing to talk. They could tell right away they had no chance of "getting" me, but that didn't stop them from asking me all the questions. It went off-script rather quickly (the scripted questions were always obvious). We were all polite, and parted on good terms with no harsh words. They never came back.

I like to try to talk to these people, even if the chances of getting them to question what they believe is low. You can never tell up front who are the truly committed, and who are going through the motions of the door-to-door thing because it's a requirement, yet in their minds have secret doubts.

Simply exposing them to a seemingly nice and normal person who simply doesn't buy all this religion-stuff and can articulate why in a coherent manner can often be a benefit to a person's mind.

Some people ARE hopeless. But you can never be sure.

Posted by: ISDP | September 6, 2010 5:47 PM

My aunt, sadly, is a member of that dreadful cult. She didn't take it very well when I told her I didn't believe in god: immediately she took me into the kitchen to try to "win me back".

What's interesting is that she chose to argue about evolution before anything else. Sensing a trap (she was looking to put me on the spot) I simply told her that I accepted evolution as fact based on the ample evidence behind before I proceeded to systematically dismantle her own beliefs for a solid thirty minutes. Suffice to say that she gave up on converting me.

Posted by: Scott | September 6, 2010 5:57 PM

You all are a funny bunch, even if you are atheists. Wait, scratch that. Atheists can be funny too. This is a very interesting thread. For Anubis, can I borrow your "religotard" phrase? Love that. This is my first visit to this site, and I liked it enough to post something. I just returned from a gay exJW convention, yes, I'm serious, it really does exist....and I write a blog for Freeminds.org about my experience as a Witness, from a gay perspective.....and, I've recently started writing about the whole atheist vs. spiritualist mentality (or now, thanks to Anubis, I can classify it as atheist vs. religiotard)....thanks for entertaining me with your comments. I've enjoyed this.

Posted by: Sastra | September 6, 2010 6:03 PM

ggoglermess #66 wrote:

Some people ARE hopeless. But you can never be sure.

Agree.

When she was young my mom converted briefly to JW, and she was talked out of it when she went door to door. It wasn't so much anything anyone said. It was that these people all seemed so nice, and so sincere, and how could she be so sure that she knew the truth better than any of them?

She also signed up for a course on the Bible, and read, for the first time, that the gospels were not written down immediately by well-known historical eye witnesses, but had been stories passed on by word of mouth, and written up finally by anonymous authors many years later. How could this not have been mentioned by anyone, or even hinted at? How could every single word be so significant then?

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 6, 2010 6:09 PM

Many years ago, I was doing door-to-door surveys for a city directory. At one house, a cute red-headed woman answered the door. I was mostly thinking of corny pick-up lines, but the first thing I did was refer to last year's information and ask, "Does Rusty still live here?" She smiled real nice and said, "Oh, it's Rose now."

That pretty much shut me up and made me go away all flustered. Dunno how you'd work that in on Jehovah's, though.

I suppose she could have been his sister, taking over the place, but at the time that never occured to me.

Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere | September 6, 2010 6:26 PM

I think the even greater irony is "not content to keep their views to themselves" is that atheists are actually talking about it out loud. It's not even going door to door, just that some atheists don't see the point of shutting up any more.

It's like the comparison of the militant atheist to the militant muslim. Yep, those who kill in the name of Allah are just the same as those who say out loud that there is no God!

Posted by: MadScientist | September 6, 2010 6:41 PM

"Religion On The Run?" hah - wishful thinking.

Posted by: Stardrake | September 6, 2010 7:03 PM

Here's one from my wife's mother...

One day, a knock came at the farmhouse door. (They live on a small farm outside Willmar, in western MN.) She went to the door with Mike--Mike being 120 pounds (54.4kg) of German shepherd dog. Very sweet--unless Mama didn't like you.

It was a JW door-knocker. He thought he was coming in. Mike disagreed. The JW said "That's a big dog!". Mummy replied "Yes, and he's Lutheran!". JW stammers out "I'm glad to hear you have a church home!" and disappears so fast he left a blue trail of Cherenkov radiation behind....

They didn't come back for 5 years or more...I figure the "hobo signs" they marked outside the house (Big Mean Lutheran Dog) finally wore off....

Posted by: carlbuell | September 6, 2010 7:09 PM

I was raised in a Jehovah Witless (sp) household. My mother joined some members of her family and converted when I was nine and suddenly I found myself at the Kingdom Hall (DON'T CALL IT A CHURCH - false religion ya know) up to 10 hours a week. It was nuts to me from the beginning. Having grown up on a farm and in the woods, my fascination with real nature had already taken hold and going back wasn't going to happen. It did however, make my teenage years an inquisition. I had to hide books on science the way another teenage boy might have hidden a playboy magazine. I remember vividly having mommy dearest slap me in the face (hard) the first time I told her I didn't believe in god (her Jehovah or any other). Lovely Christian gesture. I have to add I'd never heard of Atheism at the time and felt terribly alone. The Internet would have made things easier, but this was 1958.

Witnesses have some incredible abilities. They can be amazingly ignorant and condescending at the same time. They also can claim persecution; "you won't let me believe what I want to", just by disagreeing with them. It never occurred to my mother that telling me that "you think too much" or "nothing you do will ever matter" are probably the worst things you can tell a child. I'm not sure I'm totally over it at the age of 63. The "woods" and being able to draw "saved me". Today, while I still sometimes struggle with depression, I've got a second-graders dream job and many brilliant young friends who continue to educate me every time I provide an illustration for their papers, museums or books.

Posted by: ursulamajor | September 6, 2010 7:27 PM

blockquote>Oddly enough, my first reaction to that picture was, "Ooh look, they've depicted us as a shuffling, grey, zombie horde". But maybe that's just me...

I glanced at the pic as it loaded and saw "us" with pitchforks instead of signs for a split second.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 6, 2010 7:37 PM

Wow, Carl @#82. Sorry for your experiences, and thanks for sharing that.

I'm glad you survived with your love of science and nature intact, and even more so because you manage to pass it on to others (like me) through your art.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | September 6, 2010 7:41 PM

And they ran away.

Thereby aborting what would've been one helluva fine blog post.

About half a century ago, my uncle in suburban Los Angeles invited in some door-to-door evangelists whose gimmick was to carry around an LP album with a partly-musical come-to-Jesus pitch on it. He sat them down, listened to the record with them, and politely declined their invitation to attend church with them the next Sunday.

They thanked him and were about to leave when he told them that he'd listened to their album, so it was only fair that they listen to his. As they settled back onto the couch, he lined up a record sent to him by a friend in England (claimed to be banned in the US) featuring what I suspect was this song.

Having ridden the rails during the Depression, Uncle Monty thought he was familiar with all manner of hobo signage. Though he scanned the street, curb and landscaping, he was never able to find whatever mark they put outside his house that kept all the other bible-bangers away for years afterwards.

Posted by: Athena | September 6, 2010 8:20 PM

Rochester, MN is the site of the yearly JW convention. For many years, the JWs would go door-knocking in between their meetings. It got so bad that the city council had a "talk" with the JW leadership. Now, they still convene here but do not proselytize.

The Mor(m)ons are especially bad here. I have a large "no soliciting" sign on my front door, yet they still come knocking. After adding "Mormons not welcome", they've finally quit bothering me.

To all of you who have escaped JW, Mormonism, and all the religious cults: Good on ya! Stay strong. You have friends here.

Posted by: Hittman | September 6, 2010 8:26 PM

Having escaped from that cult when I was twenty, I know the ins and outs of their nonsense and really enjoy screwing with them. Not only is it fun, but I have a little hope that I'm planting seeds of doubt that may blossom later on.

But if you want them to avoid your house, just tell them you've been disfellowshipped. Use that phrase – don't say excommunicated or they'll know you're lying. Tell them you're a disfellowshipped apostate and from then on they'll avoid your house like it's radioactive.

Posted by: Lee Picton | September 6, 2010 8:41 PM

Also an oldie worth repeating: The spawn,a competitive marksman, was cleaning his .357 magnum on the kitchen table and he and it were all covered in oil, when the doorbell rang. JWs. Not being willing to put the oily weapon down or wipe his hands yet, he held the gun behind his back while he went to the screen door. When they announced their intentions, he brought out the gun and said, "Why sure, come on in, I'm sure we can have a nice conversation!"
They couldn't get away fast enough.

Posted by: attila.a | September 6, 2010 9:01 PM

I have run into one a while ago proselytizing in front of the office building she worked at during lunch. I opened up my shirt and showed her my open heart surgery scar from when I was 5 to correct a birth defect. "So based on your view of blood transfusions was I supposed to have died early in childhood?"

I don't remember her having an answer.

Posted by: Kagato | September 6, 2010 9:04 PM

Usually they know the bible. Why didn't they bring up:

We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Tim 1:9-11)

I would send those JW's back and ask for a refund.

That's interesting. Which translation is that?
I'm certainly no biblical scholar, my knowledge is passing at best. But I did a quick search for a variety of translations, and I didn't get that wording in any of them:

New World Translation (the most relevant):

...kidnappers, liars, false swearers...

A random selection from biblegateway.com -- KJV:

...for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons...

Darby Translation:

...kidnappers, liars, perjurers...

God's Word Translation:

...for kidnappers, for liars, for those who lie when they take an oath...

Now, to my modern sensibilities, you can't be a slave trader without being a "manstealer"/kidnapper. But the phrasing certainly seems to be distinct in this context...

Posted by: heddle | September 6, 2010 9:24 PM

Kagato #98,

The NIV, The NIV uses slave traders. The ESV uses enslavers. Those are the best English translations, the NIV being a paraphrase and the ESV being literal. The KJV uses man stealers. The Greek word is andrapodistace, whose meaning is enslaver or men-stealer.

But you are correct, they wouldn't know to use that verse because they use the NWT.

Posted by: Robin | September 6, 2010 10:05 PM

The Irony is that an academic like yourself would be so judgmental about an article, that you couldn't get to the 3rd sentence. Why would you download the article in the first place?

Posted by: Palaverer | September 6, 2010 11:10 PM

Up until two years ago, I was a Witness (hey, I was indoctrinated from toddlerhood). Raven is right; it's a cult. Since exiting, I've come to the conclusion that all religions are cults to some degree, but JWs are some of the worst. They cost people their lives, both in terms of killing them, and stealing their years away in worthless pursuits.

They are highly superstitious (demons can come at you from anywhere) and are prevented from ever hearing anything that conflicts with the Watchtower's teachings. Even the people who physically leave the cult, often are still stuck there mentally, believing that they will soon be killed when God expends his wrath against 90% of the world.

One point in their favor: they do a great job of discrediting other religions, so if you can get your brain out of their clutches, it's easier to discard the rest. As a JW, I always respected atheists because I recognized that they put more thought into their position than religious people did.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/c8vgv20epfOnyZYgaPKrcYfDk4TekTh7#ed6d2 | September 6, 2010 11:19 PM

Ah, my mother did the dog thing too, but not a 'luthern dog' just three hungry dobermans and one hungry rottweiler (all extremely excellent, friendly dogs, btw, but people are scared of big dogs). The thing is, when my mother wasn't home, my father would invite them in and chat (he never converted, mainly because it would involve giving up being constantly drunk, and he's too lazy to really join any group, even a cult).

These days, I just tell them I'm a dyke and launch into stories about eating pussy and BDSM. That makes them run away as fast as they can. I have a pair of friends who are a gay couple and they just start making out. Answering the door in obvoius drag helps too. They never come back after that.

Posted by: Ohnhai | September 6, 2010 11:20 PM

YEARS ago now, then I was working on the Isle of Wight, i got a knock at the door one Sunday and there was this young fella and his young lady (standing dutifully behind him) clutching copied of Awake and The Watchtower. "Ok" I thought. I was in a combative mood and thought this would be fun.

It wans't really fair of me but during our conversation I specked that the was a creationist (JW so DUH!) so I pushed the argument towards 'half an eye ball' and then took him for a stroll up Mount Improbable. he made his excuses and left...

Well that was fun I thought and settled back with a good book and a cup of tea for a morning of relaxation in the knowledge of a job well done.

DING - DONG !!!

Upon opening the door I realized the youngsters had runaway and told tales to their elders two of whom were standing on my door step. One Sister Pauline Bonniface and another one I cant recall.

More conversation and this time, mainly because i was disputing the validity of the Bible as any kind of 'evidence' other than a fine story, the topic turned to the subject of 'The Bible: Gods words or Man's?'. Pauline said she had the very book to set me right but she had to go and get it.

I said ok, and waited. Sure enough half hour later she returned with the orange covered hardback tome "The bible: God's word or Man's?". I promised I would read it, yes, and the copy of the bible I was also given (a funny story for another day)could they come back in a week.

SO I read their books and sure enough a week later there was a knocking at the door.

I invited them in and pulled out the book, now festooned with post-its and notes and preceded to take them through it pointing out in absolute terms why the entire book was wrong in both fact and assertion.

I cant remember all of them but the one I recall was the assertion that thousands of people had died for their faith thus the bible was with out a doubt the word of God! I kid you not. This was a piece of 'evicence' they saw fit to print as proof of a divine origin of the bible.

I read the passage out and said "you simply can not say this! This is totally wrong to the point of dishonesty. The deaths of all those people through out history only point to the fact that they believed in their faith strong enough to die willingly or to piss someone else off enough to die at their hand, it makes NO claim what so ever as to whether that faith is true." I took them through the entire book like this and sadly it was a much repeated conversation. Unconnected event, assertion = God is the author of the bible.

Give them their due they took this abuse for the entire book and then said thank you and left.

I didnt see any JW again at that address.

Been in Australia now for five and a half years and have yet to have a JW visit... they must be tracking me....

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | September 6, 2010 11:44 PM

I wish I was your local JW, I would have loved to chatting with you. Atheism is a religion as dogmatic as any Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Eastern faith and should be investigated and judged on merit.

Please point at any sacred book or leader that must be followed at the pain of expulsion or death.

Also, you do not need to chat with PZ. (Oh, wait, it is your right as a JW to monopolize the time of strangers about a fucking invisible kingdom.) You can read this blog and find other atheist forums.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmKoZZW1bfPWwVICBRt8fSLiYWHHSiKVGk | September 7, 2010 12:05 AM

I guess you'd have to consider it a fairly disappointing communication fail for the KJV and so many other translations to have missed Paul's entire point on something as important as slavery.

Especially considering slave-trading and slave ownership aren't the same thing. In modern times, the one was outlawed before the other, and the outlawing of the slave trade did nothing to encourage American states that permitted slavery to suddenly give it up.

Pretty hard to reconcile Timothy saying slave-traders are unrighteous, then Paul telling slaves to obey their masters well, and to obey their Christian masters especially well so the holiness might rub off on them.

Posted by: echidna | September 7, 2010 1:10 AM

Dawkins is a rockstar. (Oh why did you have to put him on Dr Who)

Oh the ignorance. Who is this "you" of whom you speak, anyway? Do you think anyone here casts the Dr. Who episodes?

Don't you know that Richard Dawkins has a long-standing connection with Dr. Who? Douglas Adams, then a writer for Dr. Who, introduced Richard Dawkins to his future wife, Lalla Ward? You do know of Lalla's connection to Dr. Who? (Romana, for those who don't know).

Many things that you see on Dr. Who seem to me to be indirect tips of the hat to Douglas Adams.

Posted by: McCthulhu is taking ∞ to eat all the pi | September 7, 2010 1:26 AM

Need to get rid of door-to-door preachers? Emulate young Gavin from Canada and all your problems will evaporate like rationality at an anti-mosque rally...

Clicky

Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 7, 2010 1:33 AM

Atheism is a religion as dogmatic as any Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Eastern faith and should be investigated and judged on merit.

And, if you didn't say that you'd be going contrary to your dogma. You wouldn't dare.

You wouldn't dare to learn anything but lies fed to you by your church, either.

Glen Davidson

Posted by: Markita Lynda: Healthcare is a damn right | September 7, 2010 2:38 AM

I thought Flirty Fishing was what the Mormons do in their main temple in Salt Lake City, which is swarming with cute Mormon girls ready to chat up the tourists. I didn't realize the Children of God had their own version.

Posted by: Colin Day | September 7, 2010 2:40 AM

#112

The US Constitution banned the importation of slaves in 1808, but the slave trade within the US was legal until the 13th Amendment.

Posted by: tacroy | September 7, 2010 3:20 AM

I have a really awesome story about Jehova's Witnesses:

It was the holiday season, and I was waiting for a taxi out in the parking lot with my luggage sitting around me. After about a minute I realized that I'd forgotten my cell phone charger, so I was standing there dithering about whether I was okay with leaving all this stuff alone for the five minutes it would take to grab my cell phone charger (it might get stolen!) or if I wanted to bring the luggage back up with me just to make sure (hard, and I might miss the taxi).

Then, to compound my issues, I look up the street and what do I see? Black pants, white shirts, black ties - a pair of Witnesses coming down the road, and me the only sentient being in sight. Well shit, as if things weren't already bad enough.

Spotting their helpless quarry, the Witnesses slowly stalked down the street with an almost predatory air. I, of course, was doing the only thing a sane person can - looking everywhere but them, dreading the moment when social norms required me to make eye contact.

Inevitably, just as they drew close enough for greetings to be exchanged, I had an idea - a mad, daring bit of social jiu-jitsu that was sure to succeed.

As the Witnesses drew near, I pre-empted the traditional awkward hellos by saying, "Hey um, I forgot my cell phone charger, would you guys mind watching my luggage for a second while I go get it?"

The somewhat bemused Witnesses had no choice but to agree (human social contracts trump God, after all), so I rushed back home to grab my charger. Upon returning, I saw that my paranoia had been at least somewhat justified - the taxi had already pulled up, and it looked like the confused taxi driver was having a conversation with the Witnesses. Oh well, there's always a bit of collateral damage.

So in to the taxi cab I went, saying "Thanks!" to the Witnesses as I left. They still managed to give me a little piece of psychological manipulation - the lead guy handed me a pamphlet about "feeling lonely? Jesus is there for you".

Just think about how horrible that is. There they are, wandering around graduate student apartments during the holiday season, trying to find people who are still at home and not on vacation or something (possibly due to family or marital problems) and hand them these little cards about how some invisible friend is there for you despite all evidence to the contrary. Just ignore your family problems and come to Jesus! It's like taking a soma holiday, but less interesting!

I threw the thing away at the airport, I wasn't about to leave something that toxic in the taxi cab.

Posted by: Samantha Vimes | September 7, 2010 3:58 AM

I try to be nice, but when one woman insisted on continuing to talk when I told her I not only wasn't going to change my beliefs, but was suffering asthma and couldn't keep the door open, I finally had to shut the door while she continued speaking.
*No* consideration on her part. I was used to sweet if somewhat befuddled JW school-friends and coworkers, so that was a bit of a surprise.

Posted by: heddle | September 7, 2010 4:36 AM

#112,

Pretty hard to reconcile Timothy saying slave-traders are unrighteous, then Paul telling slaves to obey their masters well, and to obey their Christian masters especially well so the holiness might rub off on them.

It is actually not hard, but that is not multicellular's challenge in #62 to the JWs. It was simply

asking them to name one passage in the bible saying it was wrong.

he then describes, in effect, winning the argument as the befuddled JW searched in vain. If the JW had immediately produced 1 Tim 1:10, especially from the NIV or ESV, and multicelluar's response was: Oh, but that condemns slave trading, not slavery! or oh, but the KJV version uses "man stealers", or to a goalpost move as you have done: oh, but what about Paul's other comments on slavery? Well, too late, the JW would have won that exchange.

Posted by: John Phillips, FCD | September 7, 2010 5:07 AM

Heddle, but that passage doesn't actually say that slavery is wrong, only that it is not necessarily OK to be a slave trader. Not the same thing at all, as witness the US's own stance with regard to slave trading before finally emancipating its slaves. Especially when put alongside the wholly babble's admonition for slaves to obey their masters, the instructions on how to properly treat slaves and the enjoining of taking slaves. In other words, one passage puts slave traders in a negative light while far more actually support slavery. Don't you ever getting tired of defending the indefensible or rationalising the irrational.

Posted by: Andyo | September 7, 2010 6:37 AM

I stumped a married couple of them by asking how big was Noah's ark. As it turns out, it's not that hard to stump them.

Irony-challenged too. I told them I was raised catholic and they said it can't be true cause the 3-in-1 god just doesn't make sense (remember I had to ask about the size of the ark?).

Posted by: FossilFishy | September 7, 2010 9:01 AM

I've never had the pleasure. But I had a gay landlord once who fancied himself a patriot.

As he told the story:

One day he was in the shower when the doorbell went. He jumps out of the shower and on his way the door he grabs the first piece of clothing that comes to hand. Which happens to be an apron with "This is no ordinary house wife you're dealing with." printed on the front.

He peers through the spy-hole and seeing that it's JW's he yanks open the door. Buck naked under the apron and dripping wet he yells "I'm queer and you won't stand up for the national anthem, we have NOTHING to talk about!" and slams the door.

Oddly they never bothered him again.

Posted by: yaburrow | September 7, 2010 9:58 AM

Wow, that really does redefine irony. I mean, you know, I have had quite a lot of atheists try to convince me that my participation in religion is deluded and strange, despite my constant explanations that my spiritual views and practices are consistent with reason and science, that I regard most theology as mythology and metaphor, and I'm only interested in practices that enhance my life. Also I have frequently pointed out to the atheists in question that religion is about practices and values, not beliefs (the idea that it is primarily about beliefs was introduced by Christian fundamentalists in the late 19th century, though sadly this attitude has spread to other groups).

But none of these atheists were complete strangers who were knocking on my door and trying to sell me irreligion. Though that might be quite fun - some of my best anecdotes involve the things that I and my friends have said to Jehovah's Witnesses and other doorstep evangelists. Let's face it, doorstep-evangelist-baiting is a national sport.

Posted by: Andyo | September 7, 2010 10:42 AM

Also I have frequently pointed out to the atheists in question that religion is about practices and values, not beliefs (the idea that it is primarily about beliefs was introduced by Christian fundamentalists in the late 19th century, though sadly this attitude has spread to other groups).^{[citation needed]}

Posted by: Victor | September 7, 2010 10:56 AM

I tried to hand out FFrF pamphlets to JWs when they come to our door, but they wouldn't take them. I swear they actually backed away from the little piece of paper. They said we could tell them what it said, but they that they would not touch it.

An ex-JW friend told us later that JWs are discouraged to ready anything not specifically printed by the Watchtower press. Talk about suppression.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 11:14 AM

despite my constant explanations that my spiritual views and practices are consistent with reason and science

Please do tell us how your spiritual views are consistent with both reason and science.

Posted by: Eoin | September 7, 2010 11:47 AM

Opinions about Jehovah's Witnesses seem to abound on the web. A recurrent theme appears to revolve around around them being weak-minded, impressionable, ignorant, unintelligent etc.

My only question is: How did an (allegedly) feeble-minded people become so adept in mind-control and hypnotically subsersive techniques, to the extent that they have outlived and, it appears, outwitted the most sophisticated propoganda machines of all time such as Nazi Germany, RC church, USSR, to name a few?

Posted by: raven | September 7, 2010 11:50 AM

and the fact that they drag their kids around with them on their door-to-door evangelism.

That can work in the kids' favor. Look directly at the parents while pointing out to the kids that JWism is kooky and most eventually escape. The kids have a 2 in 3 chance of getting out.

An ex-JW friend told us later that JWs are discouraged to ready anything not specifically printed by the Watchtower press. Talk about suppression.

A typical mind control technique. They are also discouraged from attending college. Surrounded by heathens and encouraged to learn and think leads to escape.

If you look at cults like the JWs and Mormons, they use every mind control technique known to humans. It tends to produce zombie robots who really aren't good at independent thought. Plus, in the ones it doesn't work on, it produces exXians.

Pretty much sums up how real those religions are. No brainwashing = no cult.

I checked up on some accusations made about JWs. Apparently what studies have been done do indicate they have a high suicide and mental illness rate. The pressures within the cult results in a lot of cognitive dissonance. The JWs have had a lot of failed prophecies and we are supposedly in the End Times but no one knows it but them. Yeah, right.

Posted by: kiki | September 7, 2010 11:53 AM

You could always do what I've done: move into an area that's mainly populated by Hassidic Jews. I've lived in one for seven years now, and I've only ever had one Jesus Salesman come to my house - and I work from home so I'm usually in all day. I think the Xians probably take one look at the people on my street and say, 'A full suit and a big furry hat in the middle of summer? Holy shit - these people actually take their holy book seriously! Run away!'

The Hassids themselves don't seem to be that much into proselytizing, presumably because you can't talk someone into having a different maternal lineage.

Posted by: Evolved Dolly | September 7, 2010 11:54 AM

I had a double whammy of JW's and Mormons when I lived in New Zealand a few years ago.

I was on my round the world extravaganza, and living in Wellington.
So anyway, I had this distinctly dodgy Geordie boyfriend, and we were at my house 'relaxing' when the door bell went, we'd just got out the shower by this time so I opened the door in my bath towel (assuming a flatmate had forgotten keys) to find these rather alarmed and flustered JW's who didn't know where to look trying desperately to talk to me about the babble, who then hurriedly escaped when a six foot four Geordie in the buff appeared at door. The comedy value!

This next bit was less amusing...
Some time later I got myself in a pickle due to a flatmate turning out to be very creepy indeed. I had to move out fast.
A lady I had got to be vaguely aquainted with offered to put me up with her family.

Enter the dreaded Mormons.

What bothered me most about this whole episode, (apart from the serious lack of tea/coffee/decent swearing/booze etc) was when she admitted later, when I had politely explained that I was leaving, that she and her husband had only decided to put me up because 'God' wanted them to. They would really rather not have had a slightly lost house guest.

Whilst I appreciated their (somewhat reluctant) hospitality, I thought that was particularly stupid.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 11:58 AM

Hey Nick,

Tell us about all of the children and adults that have died because of your silly beliefs regarding blood transfusions.

Posted by: raven | September 7, 2010 12:02 PM

How did an (allegedly) feeble-minded people become so adept in mind-control and hypnotically subsersive techniques, to the extent that they have outlived and, it appears, outwitted the most sophisticated propoganda machines of all time such as Nazi Germany, RC church, USSR, to name a few?

Last I heard, the RCC still had a billion adherents, half of all xians.

The JWs haven't tried to seize temporal political power and oppress hundreds of millions of people. They also managed to not have White Night suicide parties like the Reverend Jim Jones and his People's Temple did or shoot it out with the Feds like the Branch Davidians. Not a good long term strategy there

As to how they learned mind control techniques, these are thousands of years old. Cults have been in existence for as long as we have records. They come and go. The polygamist FLDS have been around as long as the JWs as well, despite being more destructive and even weirder if that is possible.

But the JW religion is just running in place. With escape rates over 50% they depend on heavy recruitment just to maintain the small numbers they have. Sort of a revolving door with damaged people coming in as victims are leaving.

Posted by: Andyo | September 7, 2010 12:19 PM

Last I heard, the RCC still had a billion adherents, half of all xians.

Posted by: raven | September 7, 2010 12:29 PM

No, no. That's the weasel number they spout, but the real number of believers are way less.

Yeah, I know. Most sects cook their numbers. My RCC relative who is a lay official in a Protestant church now is probably still on the RCC books.

The surveys say that 76% of the USA is xian. The numbers that actually go to church run more like 25-35% of the population. A lot of xians are just box checkers on paper.

Posted by: tacroy | September 7, 2010 12:35 PM

Yup, if the number of believers that the RCC claims are Catholic actually attended Mass, churches wouldn't have enough space for all of them.

Why? Well, despite attending Mass all of once in my lifetime, I'm still on the Catholic Church's rolls as a Catholic. The reason? I was fortunate enough to be born in Brazil. They basically claim entire populations just because those people were born in the right area.

Posted by: Joey Mack | September 7, 2010 1:00 PM

I'm embarrassed for you P.Z. you're slippin'. All he's saying is exactly what the atheist movement is actually doing. In no way is he actively rebuking us except for in your deluded mind! This kind of post is all too common on the internet, "GOTCHA!" Sad.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 1:09 PM

I'm embarrassed for you P.Z. you're slippin'. All he's saying is exactly what the atheist movement is actually doing. In no way is he actively rebuking us except for in your deluded mind! This kind of post is all too common on the internet, "GOTCHA!" Sad.

I'm embarrassed that you apparently have a problem with comprehending what you read because except in your own deluded mind author was actively rebuking "us".

Or was it the fact that you can't see the irony in the linked article?

This kind of idiotic remark is so common for morons who post here trying to get one over on PZ.

Sad.

Posted by: CJO | September 7, 2010 1:33 PM

Also I have frequently pointed out to the atheists in question that religion is about practices and values, not beliefs (the idea that it is primarily about beliefs was introduced by Christian fundamentalists in the late 19th century, though sadly this attitude has spread to other groups).

First, aren't values a species of belief? Either way, you're exaggerating with regard to Christianity and badly overgeneralizing by talking about "religion" and what it's about. What Christian fundamentalists introduced in the late 19th c. was, well, Christian fundamentalism, as that term is understood today. They were certainly not responsible for the idea that Christianity is about belief, which dates to antiquity (Paul, Augustine et al) and was a strong component in the theology of the Protestant Reformation, but about a specific set of beliefs regarding Scripture and its proper interpretation (which really was just a refinement or stronger statement of the Reformation-era Protestant view).

And I'm not saying that practice isn't an issue, or that Christianity has ever been exclusively oriented toward belief, with no consideration of praxis. But there's a reason the Nicene and Apostle's creeds are still recited by hundreds of millions every Sunday, and if you don't believe the core content of those statements, I fail to see how you can call yourself a Christian or why you would bother.

"if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins"

And a lot more in that vein in the NT epistles would suggest that, since the 1st Century, the core of Christian faith was belief in the resurrection. Since beliefs are really ultimately made known by practice, in the sense that they are nothing more than commitments to behave in certain ways in certain situations, it may not even be coherent to speak of beliefs without any consideration of practice; nevertheless, your assertion that religion generally is not about beliefs seems at odds with the facts.

Posted by: Sastra | September 7, 2010 1:45 PM

NickJW #147 wrote:

Dear PZ, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for using your popular blog site to promote one of our magazines. It really does help, although, I do wonder if your followers will actually read the article?

Yes, I read the article, though I'm not sure how the link "helps" you other than by upping your hit count. Nobody from this group is likely to be converted -- not just because most of us are atheists and you're making poor arguments, but because this is a science blog and your major focus seems to be an attack on evolution. Even our Christian regulars know better.

You are out of your depth, and are making claims that have nothing to do with how the Bible can be interpreted.

Posted by: buxtonfinishes | September 7, 2010 2:02 PM

@Richard Eis no I didn't dissapear. I find it funny how the atheist posters want to paint all JW's as mindless pawns of some brain washed cult. I can see how you feel that way from your side of the fence, but it isn't much different than how the religious right can develop a caricature of you as hedonists that will destroy society with self indulgence and lack any sense of right from wrong.
For the smug who feel they have confounded someone at their door you have to remember that every JW goes door to door. There are brilliant JW's and there are those of limited intellect who believe and follow their conscience based on the conclusion they've come to. I've found the same among atheists. I have spoken to brilliant people who are well read, and I've spoken to lots of clueless ones as well.
So I can't speak for others, just myself. Do I like coming to your house on a saturday morning. Not really, I'd rather stay snuggled in bed with my wife. But I believe it is important. Not interested in talking about faith, "you have a lovely garden" and I'm on my way. Seriously put off by my knocking. I don't want to bother anyone. I'll make a notation on our records. Do I feel it is important to be out in the community? Yes. One I know I've helped people. I've stumbled upon suicidal people, ones with severe family crisis and other problems and I've been able to bring them some comfort. Last week I pulled into someones driveway and the woman was on the porch in tears because her husband had just left her. I sat down on the stair next to her and read her a couple scriptural passages, let her give me a hug and told her I'd pray for her. She told me that God had sent me to her. Ok from a secular humanists perspective that was completely a placebo effect, but within the humanists thinking wouldn't extending empathy to another human being and relieving suffering be a moral act?
As far as being close minded, again speaking only for myself, I read as much as possible from as many perspectives. I'm currently reading CS Lewis (no nothing narnarific) and Bradbury (that doesn't have anything to do with this conversation, I just love Bradbury). I've read Dawkins (side note- my comment about Dr Who was a light hearted quip. It's obvious that he was on the show because Russel Davies is a big fan) though I haven't read all of the God Delusion. It is on my list, just been distracted.
Also I have no idea what a "concern troll" is. I just found the article interesting...

Posted by: Flapjack | September 7, 2010 2:31 PM

From experience I know that the only way to stop a Jehova's witness talking at you is to shut the door in their face, mid-sentance if need be. Like telemarketers, "Not interested" doesn't compute and they are pre-programmed to carry on regardless.
They always seem to send sweet old ladies or mums with babies in pushchairs to guilt trip me into hearing the entire chapter and verse. But with repeated exposure to cynical marketing tactics I find I can happily shut the door in their faces within seconds without so much as a twinge of guilt. That said I did manage a good conversation stopper when one of them buzzed my intercom one day...

JW - Hello, I'm just going door to door today and I'm trying to find out from people what do they think happens when you die?

Me - You rot. Goodbye [click]

A friend had a brief bi-polar episode recently which gave him an even better retort. He ended up on a mental ward with a Jehova's witness who didn't approve of his gay lifestyle or the fact he claimed to be god and she told him he was a hellbound sinner. But as he'd just had a personality breakdown he was able to say with complete conviction that he WAS in fact god and it was down to him who went to heaven and hell, it was his bloody universe and if she didn't like that, tough! Wish I'd thought of it...

Posted by: Andreas Johansson | September 7, 2010 2:50 PM

The one time I opened the door to be confronted with JW's I was still a Christian and still living at my parents' place, so I asked them if they wanted to talk with my father, the pastor. Evidently not secure in their superior theology, they bade their adieu and left.

Posted by: Sastra | September 7, 2010 2:56 PM

buxtonfinishes #170 wrote:

I find it funny how the atheist posters want to paint all JW's as mindless pawns of some brain washed cult.

The first sign of being a mindless pawn of some brain-washed cult is thinking you're not a mindless pawn of some brain-washed cult.

Just kidding.

Years ago, when I used to haunt religious-debate chatrooms, I was told that the reason there were very few Jehovah's Witnesses in the rooms was that they were ordered to stay away from forums where people were eager to argue and discuss. Such places were snares of the devil -- or unlikely to hold potential converts -- or maybe some other reason. I had to go by second hand reports. The only JW regular was a cheerful little guy from Australia, and he said he knew of no such directive -- though he, too noticed that he always seemed to be the sole representative for a group known for proselytizing.

When it comes to making surprising blanket assumptions about people, however, I've always thought that the JW beliefs about the unconverted were particularly egregious. I studied briefly with some JWs who came to my house a few times for Bible study, and was surprised to be told that anyone who heard their message of salvation and declined to join was lost -- but those who somehow missed the doorbell that day, and never heard about the Jehovah's Witnesses, would be given a second chance to decide to believe or not after they died and were resurrected.

But, I asked, wouldn't virtually every single person who was resurrected believe the truth of such resurrection, and thus the truth and goodness of Christianity? Shouldn't the JW's skip every house, and thus make sure that people were all provided with an opportunity to choose under the most convincing, ideal conditions possible?

I was told no: it would make no difference. People who would not believe the message when told at their doorsteps would not believe even if shown by Jesus Christ Himself after they knew they had passed through death and their bodies now intact.

Sorry. Nope. How arrogant. That's not what people are like.

Is that what you, too, believe? If not, then what happens to people who die without ever being contacted by any JW, or exposed in any way to your preachings?

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 7, 2010 3:04 PM

buxtonfinishes:

Atheism is a religion as dogmatic as any Islamic, Christian, Jewish or Eastern faith and should be investigated and judged on merit.

When people say things like this I would love to get some examples...

Do atheists have any holy books to dogmatically follow? Do atheists go around distributing leaflets like the one I mentioned above - talking about their dogma that says that women should be second class citizens?

I've seen JWs and Mormons go door to door to talk about their dogma - have you ever seen an atheist do the same?

I've seen Muslims kill themselves in suicide attacks that have been at least partially influenced by their dogma. Have you seen atheists do any suicide attacks in the name of atheist dogma?

I've seen how Catholics go around the world to aids-stricken, overpopulated areas to convince people not to use condoms - because of their dogma. Have you ever seen atheists do anything similar because of our "atheist dogma"?

Exactly what is this supposed atheist dogma?

Or do you claim that atheists are as dogmatic as religious people just because we nowadays refuse to just sit down and shut up? Is that as dogmatic as killing yourself for your belief, or refusing blood transfusions because of your belief, or praying for your sick child instead of going to a doctor because of your beliefs, or, well, any of the crazy stuff I mention above?

Seriously, I'd love to hear your examples, because I hear this "Oh atheists are just as dogmatic as religious people!"-line all the freaking time, and never have I heard a single, clear example of what people mean by this.

Posted by: robinsrule | September 7, 2010 3:17 PM

@heddle:

The NIV, The NIV uses slave traders. The ESV uses enslavers. Those are the best English translations, the NIV being a paraphrase and the ESV being literal. The KJV uses man stealers. The Greek word is andrapodistace, whose meaning is enslaver or men-stealer.

But you are correct, they wouldn't know to use that verse because they use the NWT.

So do you think YHWH will smite the Jehovah's Witnesses for using a bad translation of the Bible?

Posted by: CJO | September 7, 2010 3:24 PM

So do you think YHWH will smite the Jehovah's Witnesses for using a bad translation of the Bible?

He'd have a fair bit of smiting to do, because practically all translations (into English, anyway) of the Bible are bad, for a number of reasons, some idiosyncratic to particular attempts, some near-universal, notably the evenness of tone and diction applied to texts that vary widely on those parameters.

Posted by: Jerry | September 7, 2010 3:31 PM

Are you sure there is no God? Are you sure this world created itself? If so why is it so upsetting when some of us do? I believe in science, but I also believe there is a God. As a believer in creation I have always wondered why we can have so many possible ways we could have been created, except by God. That is the only one that seems ridiculous. It makes more since, I guess, to believe that you and I are just here for no reason at all, than for someone to planned this universe.

Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death | September 7, 2010 3:36 PM

Mormons take forever to get rid of in comparison

I ran two of them off of my front porch in a heartbeat. I don't know how. All I did was invite them in to cool off. Perhaps my excitement at seeing two hot, sweaty early-20s guys at my door was a bit too apparent. Perhaps I could've put on a few more articles of clothing before answering the door. Whatever it was, I am sad I wasn't able to be of much help to them at that time.

One of these days, though, I'll give them such a deconverting...

Posted by: Kemist | September 7, 2010 3:39 PM

@184

Why is there need for a reason ?

Beyond your personnal need ?

The universe does not need a reason to exist. It simply does. How it came to be is an interesting question.

Asking for a reason, something that fits your emotional needs, is simply stupid, and childish.

I want, I want, I want !

The important questions are those that allow us a better deal, not those which open your mind to comforting, and often poisonous, fluff.

Posted by: pdferguson | September 7, 2010 3:43 PM

buxtonfinishes#170:

One I know I've helped people. I've stumbled upon suicidal people, ones with severe family crisis and other problems and I've been able to bring them some comfort. Last week I pulled into someones driveway and the woman was on the porch in tears because her husband had just left her. I sat down on the stair next to her and read her a couple scriptural passages, let her give me a hug and told her I'd pray for her. She told me that God had sent me to her. Ok from a secular humanists perspective that was completely a placebo effect, but within the humanists thinking wouldn't extending empathy to another human being and relieving suffering be a moral act?

It could have been a moral act, but you were there for the most immoral of reasons--you were proselytizing. And you took advantage of a woman in crisis. It's the oldest trick in the proselytizer's handbook, find people who are confused or hurting, and turn on the Jesus floodlights.

If you really wanted to help her there were a hundred things you could have done, but you chose that moment to push religion, with all its fears and doubts and destructive self-loathing. That's not a moral act, it's not empathy, it's pure snake oil. God didn't send you to her, you sent yourself.

Posted by: gussnarp | September 7, 2010 3:49 PM

@Jerry, #184

Are you sure there is no God? Are you sure this world created itself? If so why is it so upsetting when some of us do?

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 7, 2010 3:52 PM

Jerry:

Are you sure there is no God? Are you sure this world created itself?

As I mentioned in #181, I am open for evidence to the contrary. Until I see any evidence however, I will hold the basic assumption that there is no God. Just like I will hold the assumption that there are no unicorns until I see evidence of unicorns. It's very simple.

If so why is it so upsetting when some of us do?

I don't think that there are many atheists who are upset simply because people believe in God. We may be very confused by their belief, but not upset. Most of us simply don't care about most God-belief.

But look at the list of things I gave in #178... People kill themselves and others because of religion. People oppress gay people and women while citing holy books. Children die because parents pray instead of going to a doctor, children die because their parents beliefs prohibit blood transfusions, children die because the Catholic church's stance on condoms, et cetera.

There are a whole mess of reasons to be upset with the suspension of critical thinking that is religion. Especially when the religious don't keep it to themselves, but attempt to legislate their beliefs and try to force the rest of us to accept the same strange ideas about the world.

So we question those beliefs - the beliefs that get people oppressed and killed, and the beliefs that are pushed on the rest of society.

Also - on the topic of this post - those door to door proselytizers are freaking annoying. So we get annoyed.

Does that answer your question?

Posted by: Joffan | September 7, 2010 4:02 PM

Well I like the cover. "On the march" would usually mean soldiers, but here we see a simple opinion parade with placards and apparent peaceful communication. Diverse group too.

Posted by: Dania | September 7, 2010 4:12 PM

Are you sure there is no God? Are you sure this world created itself?

Are you sure there's not a Magical Ineffable Wren who, once upon a time, pooped our universe into existence? Are you sure?

Posted by: gussnarp | September 7, 2010 4:19 PM

Yeah, Brownian, I was kind of thinking you said it better. Brevity is the soul of wit, after all.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 7, 2010 4:32 PM

Jerry #184

Are you sure there is no God? Are you sure this world created itself? If so why is it so upsetting when some of us do?

It's not upsetting at all. What's upsetting is you folks using your dogma as an excuse for pushing a political agenda. It's upsetting that certain of you goddists want mythology taught in public school instead of science. It's upsetting when you not only believe in bullshit but want everyone to believe in the same bullshit.

If you kept your beliefs to yourselves we'd be happy to take a live and let live attitude towards you. It's when your beliefs invade our space that we get upset.

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | September 7, 2010 4:33 PM

Okay, I read the Watchtower article, all this thread, and followed the links the JWs provided. I also LOLed.

Especially funny was the Bible:

"For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.

Hello? Jehovah's Witnesses? That's exactly what atheists are saying that you are doing.

And here's how science in a few words:

keep your senses in all things

Thanks for quoting that at us, NickJW. It really helped your case a frigging lot.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | September 7, 2010 4:39 PM

I just want to punch them in the fucking throat and stand over them while they gasp for air, screaming "Where's your god now?"

Dr. Brownian and Mr. Holbach?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 4:44 PM

Dr. Brownian and Mr. Holbach?

That's why I take my meds every day. Why, it's time for one no—oh no! I forgot to refill the prescription! It's happening; I can feel it! Graaugh!

Posted by: raven | September 7, 2010 4:55 PM

I asked him what he would do if the Bible or God commanded him to drown his own child, and he said, "But God would never do that!"

God commands people to stone their disobedient children to death in Deuteronomy. Hardly anyone bothers for some reason.

Among dozens of death penalty offenses for trivial things. The penalty for atheism is death, there we go. The penalty for false prophets is death, there go the JWs.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 5:08 PM

So, did you throat-punch him then?

Nah, he was on his way out. And anyway, throughout the conversation he kept retracting his bigoted comments and claiming to agree with my hippie love, so I initially thought I was making headway.

*I said come. *snicker*

Oh no, my disease is catching!

Posted by: Chikkipop | September 7, 2010 5:32 PM

"mindless pawns of some brain washed cult"

We atheists have a rebuttal point that is underutilized; we can regularly be heard deriding the intelligence of believers, but, while often true, there is a more comprehensive explanation. Other human attributes play as great a role in our choices; poor character or emotional troubles are an enormous drag on otherwise very smart folks.

The best part about this is that it removes a common weapon from the believers arsenal, that of accusing rationalists of over reliance on "logic"; when we point out that it is indeed they who are guilty of weaknesses in non-rational qualities, we've administered a more holistic ass-kicking.

So, yes, buxtonfinishes; you & others may have good minds, but you still have an infection of dumb.

"There are brilliant JW's and there are those of limited intellect "

This is why I went to the home where the "Elders" were staying after they'd visited my house (see #117). I offered to meet with anyone from their church. Really, it isn't that much more difficult to rebut the BEST you have to offer, and we certainly take every opportunity.

"I can see how you feel that way from your side of the fence, but it isn't much different than how the religious right can develop a caricature of you as hedonists that will destroy society with self indulgence and lack any sense of right from wrong."

Yeah, yeah. Everybody is just seeing it from their side of the fence; nobody is any more objective, any less subject to factual or discernment errors. We're all the same zealous guardians of our cherished beliefs. It is one of the frequently cited provisions of nonsense canon law: bias is evenly distributed!

Posted by: imnotandrei | September 7, 2010 5:39 PM

Ironic, indeed.

My parents discovered how, accidentally, to get on the Do Not Knock list across several states; of course, it involved two JWs, one of whom put his hand on my uncle's wrist to prevent him closing the door in their faces, one Irish wolfhound who thought my uncle was a puppy version of my father, one damaged pair of pants, one ripped-off windshield wiper, one bent car bumper, and an hour of waiting for my parents to get home. ;)

Growing up, I had no experience of door-to-door religion pushers. Can't imagine why.

But it did mean that by the time I got to college, I had not developed the sense of empathy that would later lead me to spend a pleasant half-an-hour educating two Mormon missionaries about Jewish holidays. No, instead, I got two bible-pushers as I walked towards campus at the urban-center university I attended, older ladies in Church Hats, etc.

"Excuse me, are you at the University?" I could see their pamphlets.

"I am."

"And have you read the bible?"

"I have."

"In the original?"

(It is at this point that I started to lie. I am a more ethical fucker-with-people's-heads now, since it's much more sporting to do it with the truth.)

"Well, some of it. I'm an Early Christian Languages and Literatures major*."

They looked puzzled. "No, the original English."

At which point I knew what sort of nitwit I was dealing with, and all my remaining scruples went out the window. "I've read it in English, yes."

"So you're a Christian?"

"Well, of a sort. I'm a Cainite."

"What do you mean?" They were perplexed.

"It's easier to explain with a few questions. Would you not agree** that the purpose of Man on Earth is to glorify God?" They were quite prepared to agree with that. "Would you not also agree that God's greatest glory is the forgiveness of sin?" They were also quite prepared to agree with that. "Therefore it is our duty to give him as many opportunities to forgive him as possible, so as to increase His glory!"***

Needless to say, they backed away rather hurriedly at that point, thanking me for listening to them as I smiled.

* Yes, a real major at my alma mater. However, from knowing a student in the program, it was no lightweight theology course; they were very serious about the *languages* portion, and he ended up becoming a historian specializing in Babylonia, IIRC.
** They, not having grown up in my household, did not know that the answer to this rhetorical sally is always "Not until you justify it further!" or just "No!"
*** This is not entirely accurate, I have now been led to understand, but it's close enough for anyone who's not deeply interested in Gnostic heresies of the early Christian era.

Posted by: jaybgee | September 7, 2010 5:52 PM

Oh delicious irony.
I do, however, like they used a nice picture of people to represent atheists.
Now I wish I had more interesting stories of JWs, Mormons or some other variety of Christian coming to my door. But my experiences have been pretty boring. They don't talk long and just give me their pamphlets. I've told a few of them before to keep their pamphlets, as I would just recycle them, so they'd be wasted on me. My mom is pretty annoyed when they come by too, a waste of my mom's time. We live upstairs in a duplex, so we can see when they're coming; we usually pretend we're not home.

Posted by: CJO | September 7, 2010 5:56 PM

This is not entirely accurate, I have now been led to understand, but it's close enough for anyone who's not deeply interested in Gnostic heresies of the early Christian era.[*]

It's an interesting idea, but it's not actually close at all to the Cainite doctrine. As I recall, they were Gnostics who, like most Gnostics, believed Yahweh to be an evil demiurge. So the idea of following Cain was to revere those who had defied Yahweh in the Jewish scriptures.

*Yes, I am such a person.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | September 7, 2010 6:04 PM

Ooh, that Cainite thing sounds pretty interesting. If we had incontrovertible proof of a higher being that would be more my speed: "You've got a lot to answer for!"

JW who have knocked on my door haven't been equipped for conversation and basically deaf to any contrary points of view and evidence. About as fun as winning a running race with preschoolers.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 7, 2010 6:26 PM

Maybe next time you should try seducing him.

He did sorta have a Bo Duke thing goin' on.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 7, 2010 6:34 PM

The Jehovah's Witnesses haven't been around here for years. We do get visitations from Mormons a fair bit, but they're easy to handle. Joe Smith's fantasies come apart quite readily and the 20 year old "elders" don't have the theological background to support them.

Posted by: earthforce_1 | September 7, 2010 7:05 PM

That just pegged the needle on my irony meter, and it was set to the x100 range.

Posted by: imnotandrei | September 7, 2010 7:14 PM

It's an interesting idea, but it's not actually close at all to the Cainite doctrine. As I recall, they were Gnostics who, like most Gnostics, believed Yahweh to be an evil demiurge. So the idea of following Cain was to revere those who had defied Yahweh in the Jewish scriptures.

*Yes, I am such a person.

Thank you for the correction! I will, I admit, continue to tell the story with the aforementioned footnote, but it's always good to know.

Ooh, that Cainite thing sounds pretty interesting. If we had incontrovertible proof of a higher being that would be more my speed: "You've got a lot to answer for!"

Indeed.

I once spent a summer in a bank vault with a JW. Oh, they let us out for lunch and at the end of the work day, but otherwise, we were in the vault. With just the two of us and a radio (and incompatible musical tastes.)

She was scared, after the first week, of trying to discuss theology/science/etc. with me. but it wasn't until the last week, when she figured (I guess) that she had to make One Last Big Effort, that I revealed the true horror:

That I thought that a God who acted the way hers did was not worthy of worship. That, presented with incontrovertible proof that she was right (she did ask it in that way -- I did teach her a few things about rhetoric ;)) I would deny God's moral authority, and agree with Milton's Lucifer: "Non Serviam".

(That, I admit, has always been my greatest single objection to most deities -- that they don't live up to the moral standards they impose.)

Needless to say, we did not keep in touch after our summer working at the bank was over.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 7, 2010 7:44 PM

@227

Posted by: Tom Sheepandgoats | September 7, 2010 7:57 PM

I haven't read the magazine yet, but...

A new group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves.

That statement, you say, is a rebuke? How is it one? Sounds like just good reporting to me, acknowledging a growing trend.

Posted by: The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge | September 7, 2010 8:04 PM

Menyambal @ 223:

The fellow is another engineer-oid person who thinks he knows that biology was put obviously together by an uber-engineer.

I know I'm going to get in trouble in a forum lousy with biologists, but when I read most explanations of how life works, all I can think of is:

<Sammy Davis Junior>"Do de name Rube Goldberg strike a familiar note?"</Sammy Davis Junior>

Posted by: Andyo | September 7, 2010 8:15 PM

Life and biochemistry is absurdly needlessly byzantine which kinda slats the argument away from design.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 7, 2010 8:23 PM

@238

No it's almost like a paradox. Anyone smart enough to design it wouldn't be dumb enough to do it like that.

Posted by: John Phillips, FCD | September 7, 2010 9:15 PM

But Heddle, I admit, it is difficult to miss the opportunity for the cheap shot. But you do make it easy with your habit of coming in here to regularly peddle garbage. Well that and a penchant for blanket assertions that even just a passing acquaintance with the bible, pick your version, shows to be just that. Them again, the deluded are very good at interpreting the wholly babble (BTW, not trying to be clever with the label, just accurate) to say what they want or to ignore what doesn't.

Again, your passage doesn't show the babble disapproving of slavery, only maybe slave dealers, which is not the same thing. On the other hand, there are plenty of passages that can only be taken as directly supporting and approving of the practise of slavery.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 7, 2010 9:20 PM

Oh, for crying out loud! Most everyone today is not content to keep their views to themselves. Pointing that out is hardly a warning that they damn well better know their place.

Then why point it out?

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawkp17PbumLPZKilHe17LtqciSL3z6B3eSk | September 7, 2010 9:53 PM

Lol, i thought i was the only one with the idea of JW baiting so i felt kinda weird, but surprisingly enough after reading posts on this blog, many people actually do that and even call it JW-baiting a national sport. Lol

But ive only mormon-baited and they arent really good debaters, really after debating for more than a year on youtube and elsewhere, i really should have expected this since many mormons dont really have good arguments for their existence of their magical sky daddy.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 7, 2010 10:57 PM

googlemess #246

But ive only mormon-baited and they arent really good debaters, really after debating for more than a year on youtube and elsewhere, i really should have expected this since many mormons dont really have good arguments for their existence of their magical sky daddy.

That's my experience. They're familiar with the Book of Mormon and, to a lesser extent, the Bible. But they're very poor at interpretation. Plus they know nothing about theologians like Augustine, Aquinas or Dietrich Bonhoeffer (most of them have never even heard of these guys). It's easy to argue Mormons, especially the 20-something "elders", into a corner.

Posted by: The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge | September 7, 2010 11:37 PM

We used to have JWs come to the door all the time when I was a kid. My Mom hated them with a purple passion, and would send them away as impolitely as she could bring herself to—not very, really.

On the other hand, I know I was at least out of high school (Class of '69—go Spartans!) before I realized that there were actual Mormons still running around loose in today's world. To me they were something you read about in history books. ("And then another locust came...") So any Mormon-baiting strategies you guys and gals can suggest will be welcome.

Posted by: Darth Studious | September 7, 2010 11:52 PM

You really think that wording sounds like totally benign and dispassionate reporting?

Trying to hold these guys accountable for what they say is like trying to grab a hold of smoke with your bare hands. They are masters of equivocation, insinuation, passive-aggressive condescension and doublethink.

Often they are able to roll all of the above into a single sentence. Their literature really is a marvel.

They also carry a portable memory hole: If ever you manage to trap a JW in one of their many logical contradictions, and get them to admit that they hadn’t actually thought it through… alas, ten minutes later you will find them repeating the same nonsense as before.

By all means keep trying though; some of us do manage to make it out. If you can recall the scene in the film What About Bob where Bill Murray is tied to a chair on top of a pile of explosives, you have some idea what it’s like to be born in a JW family. Baby steps, untie your knots…

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 8, 2010 12:39 AM

BobHaglen:

I think you'll find that people here are a bit more open, direct and brutally honest about their feelings than what we're used to in our daily lives. I like this honesty, but I'm not sure if it is as pleasant to you.

You door to door proselytizers are of course all sure that you are doing people a favor by going around, and you also think that most of us appreciate this "favor". I think that in reality - when people are actually being honest - this is rarely true.

When you come knocking on our doors, you catch us in a social deadlock where we have no option but be polite or be seen as insufferable bastards. You see, society has taught us that only insufferable bastards act impolite towards unexpected guests knocking on your door, and you exploit this. So most of us act nice and polite even when we don't want to.

You make it sound as if it is easy to tell you to go away, but I can assure you that for most people it is not. Maybe we want to tell you to stop bothering us, but feel tongue-tied by our upbringing as polite members of society.

As I mentioned earlier I used to be this way, until I read some sicker articles from your magazines. Now I've stopped putting on the act of politeness and friendliness. I will not welcome people spreading that kind of misogyny at my home, no matter how impolite it makes me seem.

And if I could only muster up a bit more impoliteness I would take a page from your book - I would start going around knocking on Jehovah's Witnesses doors to spread the word of free-thought and equality. Because just like you think that it would be of benefit to me to listen to you, I think that most Jehovah's Witnesses would benefit from thinking more like I do.

But you know what? I'm still just not fucking impolite enough to go around knocking on strangers' doors unannounced to come with totally unsolicited advice.

Posted by: Kaessa | September 8, 2010 1:07 AM

I had someone knocking on my door at least once a week when I first moved into this house. Once I got this sign, it dropped to almost nothing:

The last group to try was a couple of Mormon boys, and I just rolled my eyes at them and pointed to the sign and said, "They did teach you to read, right?"

Posted by: psychoticalice13 | September 8, 2010 5:59 AM

To those who are wondering what some of the basics of JW teachings/rules are, here are but a a few; the list is VERY long: (and yes, they are accurate because I was a JW for 9 years, as well as married to an Elder which gave me a deep inside scoop on the inside workings of the religion):

Yes, they are told to NOT read anyone else's literature but what THEY tell you to read. They even discourage the reading of many non-religious fiction and non-fiction (Harry Potter is a HUGE no-no, lol), and certain types of tv shows/movies (rated "R" movies are also a huge no-no), as well as certain music for mere enjoyment. If you are caught reading/watching/listening to certain things, you can be "marked" by the congregation.

They HIGHLY discourage marrying outside of the faith, lest you get "marked" by the congregation. "Marking" LIMITS any socializing with other members, even if it's your OWN FAMILY that you LIVE WITH. You can even get disfellowshipped (kicked out) for it.

If you leave the religion (diassociate yourself) or are are kicked out (disfellowshipped), then everyone in the religion (INCLUDING your own family (mom dad, bro, sis, EVERYONE), with one exception: your spouse, because you are "bound by god's marital law"), is REQUIRED to SEVER ALL TIES with you, ***NO EXCEPTIONS***. NO communication of ANY kind is allowed, for pain of they, themselves getting marked or disfellowshipped as well.

They even limit the sort of food you eat (no blood products allowed, such as blood sausage, etc).

They limit the kind of sex you can have with your own spouse (oral sex is a no-no), and sex outside of marriage is punishable by disfellowshipping.

They tell you what you can and cannot wear: no clothing with images of favorite stars, movies, characters, etc.. No skirts or shorts 4" above the knees, No shirts too low cut, no heels too high, etc.

They limit the kind of medical treatments you can get (NO blood transfusions or treatments that contain blood products, such as treatment injections for tetanus).

They tell you how to have fun: you can hang at a friends and go to the movies, but no wild parties or clubs, etc (that sort of thing).

They even tell you to limit who you can spend time with, whether family or friends: any associations with "worldly" people (anyone not in the religion) is questionable and can be inquired about by the Body of Elders, even if they are family that you live with.

Disobeying ANY of these things is always PARTICULARLY TERRIFYING for those who are "raised in the Truth" from childhood, and for those who have EVERYONE/MANY people they know or love in the religion, because if they DARE to deviate from what they're commanded to do, they have a LOT to LOSE:

They can lose *EVERY* friend and family member they have in the religion (remember: they are HIGHLY discouraged to associate with ANYONE outside of the religion --except to convert others-- and so they usually have VERY few friends or family out of the religion). To top that off, since INdoctrination can take YEARS, so too can DEdoctrination, which in some cases, has been led to SUICIDE, which is a FACT that is CAREFULLY hidden even to its own members within the religion.

Many ex witnesses go through HELL when they leave or are kicked out because they feel SO ALONE; they are COMPLETELY abandoned by everyone else still in the religion, NO MATTER HOW CLOSE they were with their friends and family. They are COMPLETELY abandoned by Jehovah god, who will NOT listen to their prayers until they've come to their senses to return to Him; they fear being destroyed at Armageddon of they DON'T return to him.

There is so much more I can tell you about this HORRID CULT... THEY are the WOLVES hiding in sheep's clothing, so to speak, and they do all they can to COMPLETELY SUPPRESS the "free thought" of a SINGLE person in the religion.

Their basic teaching (carefully clothed in the words "god is love" and "free will") is this:

"Worship god the way he tells you to, or die at Armageddon."

On a more personal note as an atheist: Even if there WERE a god, it does NOT mean that I must worship him simply because he is a TYRANT that commands worship by saying "because I said so, since I am your creator and father".

For me to follow --much less worship-- ANYONE, they would have to PROVE THEMSELVES WORTHY and EARN the RESPECT that it takes to MAKE them worthy of being followed.

Posted by: heddle | September 8, 2010 7:52 AM

#253,

I always invite them to join *my* faith: Validationism. We believe that if Jesus sacrificed himself to save us from our sins, minimizing our sins is belittling his sacrifice -- possibly even showing a lack of faith in his ability to save us. Therefore, to show the depth of our faith, we must sin creatively, profligately, and diversely.

Do they roll their eyes and say: "Gosh, never heard that one before."?

Posted by: psychoticalice13 | September 8, 2010 8:04 AM

.

Yes, I do, John, lol. :-)

I'm just pointing out the horrid things we had to go through as Witnesses, was all. It's easy to get upset when thinking of those things. Thankfully, I was VERY lucky to have found some fellow ex JWs from my old congregations, as well as to have made some other ex JW friends. :-)

In truth, I have no problem with religious people (even JWs), as long as they don't hurt anyone and are not hurting themselves. As long as they respect me and my way of living, I'll be more than happy to respect them. In fact, I have friends of all walks of life, including christians of many different sects, pagans, atheists, etc. :-D

Also, John, you're right about what you said to Bob Halgen: they most certainly do NOT allow their children to think for themselves. Personally, out of all the members of the JW religion, children are the ones who suffer the many effects of its STRICT limitations far more than anyone else.

They are forced to go to the Kingdom Hall even though they despise it (it's boring and the talks are geared only to adults). They are forced to give up weekend mornings watching cartoons and playing by going out knocking door-to-door.

They suffer ridicule from fellow classmates for their beliefs (are are oftentimes badly bullied), and are not allowed to engage in fun holiday activities and certain field trips, etc. While other friends or families are all celebrating things like christmas or halloween, they go to the kingdom hall to learn why the rest of the world is wrong for celebrating those things.

Again the list can go on, and on.

Btw, on a fun side note, my screen name "psychoticalice" is actually from an old PC video game (my fave) called "American McGee's Alice", lol. I'm happy to say that it was such a smash hit that they're making a new one to be released later this year! :-D

.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 8, 2010 8:19 AM

Since moving to the US, I've lived in apartments, so they never stopped by.

Huh? Over here, the JWs come to the house door and ring at one apartment after another till someone fails to pretend they're not at home.

My sisters read Awake! and Watchtower for fun (and occasionally tease each other with what it says in there). After all, it's completely abstruse, and the Witlesses are harmless to outsiders. :-)

The one time I opened the door to be confronted with JW's I was still a Christian and still living at my parents' place, so I asked them if they wanted to talk with my father, the pastor. Evidently not secure in their superior theology, they bade their adieu and left.

Interesting.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 8, 2010 9:27 AM

@265

No they most certainly DONT know their own history. The JW history is a history of failed predictions and false prophecies. Oh and dead anemic babies, that's always a plus.

Posted by: Iris | September 8, 2010 10:27 AM

It has to do with the fact that a certain percentage of people you try to witness to will attempt the oh-so-clever antinomian approach: "I sin often and egregiously so that grace may abound" (or some variant) each thinking they invented it.

And they probably did invent it, in the sense that if one hasn't heard it before and rationally considers christian dogma concerning sin, even casually, it's such a bleating obvious retort that anyone could readily come up with it.

Although they are probably too polite to roll their eyes irrational to understand that it makes exactly as much sense as anything else in their theology.

Posted by: Sastra | September 8, 2010 10:47 AM

heddle #267 wrote:

Since they witness a lot, I'm sure they hear it a lot.

Maybe.

But you really might be projecting here, though, since your own experience with atheists and non-believers is probably either in forums such as this one, or among your peers. I'm willing to bet that you've never evangelized door-to-door -- and I've got a hunch that those kinds of encounters may not reflect your more ordinary experiences very well.

The few times I've spoken to JW's who came to my door gave me a deeper appreciation and respect for Christians who hang out on the internet. Even the older, confident ones who presumably had witnessed for years seemed to be pulling from something they once read, as opposed to going into a spiel they'd done many times before. One couple told me I was the very first atheist they ever met. And no, they were not kids.

It probably depends a lot on where they're used to making their rounds. I wouldn't be too surprised if most non-believers just politely say "not interested." Atheists are rare in many areas -- or, at least, outspoken atheists are.

The stuff you're sick of -- or that we're sick of -- might not be as common as we think under the circumstances.

Nerd of Redhead, OM #261 wrote:

If you truly respected the beliefs of others, you wouldn't be knocking on their doors and unnecessarily interrupting their day to tell them their beliefs are wrong. You would just leave them alone.

Yup, that's a line that's being crossed. But I think we atheists need to be careful that we don't start to implicitly buy into the idea that telling people their religious beliefs are wrong is in-and-of-itself disrespectful. This is, after all, the charge being made against that "new group of atheists not content to keep their views to themselves."

Many of the religious people who despise JWs despise atheists for the same reason: they dare to try persuading people to change their minds. Both groups try to place the religious issue into the square of reason and argument (though the JW's admittedly do it badly) -- and people of faith often want the issue to rest safely and comfortably on faith, where it all comes down to a matter of character. But, when your viewpoint is routinely vilified on an intellectual basis, "agreeing to disagree" over the reasoning and focus only on how nice a person you are might be a very bad idea.

Posted by: ritchie.annand | September 8, 2010 11:56 AM

My wife is usually the one home when the missionaries come to call. She prefers not to engage, which I completely understand.

Our second son would be dead if we were Jehovah's Witnesses - pernicious anemia. As it stands right now, he is doing fine, he's adorable and he will live to a ripe old age, thanks to modern medicine and no prohibitions against blood products.

(May I interject a thank you to blood donors and to science in general at this point?)

"Now by all means, please continue and tell us about your glorious message."

Outside of the doorstep, I have worked with some Jehovah's Witnesses, and they were really, truly nice people, albeit often a bit lonely or struggling with something which they were unwilling or unable to share.

Annoying though it may have been, we kept "birthday" and "Christmas" out of work celebrations in part just so they would be able to justify coming out to them.

It angers me, in particular, the restrictions on fraternization, love, knowledge and celebration that religions, state religions and even "family pride" that get put on people. Yes, I would like to see that all go away. Does that make me hateful?

On a side note, from the windows of our camping tour bus in East Africa four years ago, there were oodles of Kingdom Halls there.

Posted by: psychoticalice13 | September 8, 2010 1:35 PM

.
@269...Thanks, Raven. :-)

I admit that I was lucky enough, smart enough and STRONG enough to break free of the religion when I did. And let me tell you, if it wasn't for the fact that I had MANY friends and close family OUTSIDE of the religion (much to the blatant dismay of the other Witnesses...yes, I am a rebel by nature, lol), I may never have had the strength to leave at all. I SHUDDER to think of what my life would be like if I had stayed.

And you're right about *MOST* JW's NOT having had good job training or a college education, particularly women (something I remedied a couple of years after having left the religion; I graduated from culinary school which I LOVED). You're also right about how they treat women, both in and out of marriage. Women aren't even allowed to TEACH in front of men in the Kingdom Hall without wearing a "head covering" (usually a hat or shawl) if no other Elder or Ministerial Servant is present!

Aaaand, yes, you're also right about ex JWs being angry and sometimes traumatized and expressing relief from leaving the religion. The number of ex JWs is growing so much FASTER than the Watchtower Organization will EVER admit to. LOL... just on Facebook ALONE, there seem to be countless pages dedicated to ex JWs!

Anyway, again, Raven, thank you. :-)

.

Posted by: yaburrow | September 8, 2010 5:21 PM

@Andyo (re comments #138 and #141}

Actually I was citing Karen Armstrong's A History of God. I hadn't noticed anyone else on here quoting their sources, but if you want me to give you actual page references, I am happy to do so.

Unitarians have been promoting freedom, reason and tolerance since the 16th century. So I'll think you'll find it's our thing - but we're happy to share. And I thought atheism was all about promoting rationality, so why are you upset that someone else embraces these values?

And finally - I don't believe in God either.

Posted by: ziddina | September 8, 2010 10:05 PM

BuxtonFinishes wrote: "For the smug who feel they have confounded someone at their door you have to remember that every JW goes door to door. There are brilliant JW's and there are those of limited intellect who believe and follow their conscience based on the conclusion they've come to. ..."

Yeeesss, Buxton, but aren't you people supposed to have "Jehovah's holy spirit" directing them??? Isn't that why the Watchtower Society tells Jehovah's Witnesses EXACTLY how to approach people at the door - AND a set method of responses for ALL possible objections, INCLUDING atheism?? They even hold a "school" for that during one of their meetings, to make sure that the 'conversion effort' is uniform and homogenized, the world over...

If your "divinely inspired" proselytizing spiels cannot overcome the facts raised by most atheists, then the "divine inspiration" must be of low wattage, indeed...

Posted by: psychoticalice13 | September 8, 2010 11:35 PM

.
@ #278, zidinna:

HEAR,HEAR!!! EXACTLY!

After having attended the Ministerial school once a week (not to mention the other 4 meeting each and every week), it wasn't very long before I realized that the guidelines, etc were no better than anyone else's methods in ANY shape or form. They merely SEEMED brilliant by how they were presented in mini-performances of POSSIBLE scenarios from the platform. Also, the outcomes of those scenarios were all really nothing more than wishful thinking: Actually talking to people out in the field was an ENTIRELY different experience, RARELY resulting in success.

I grew so very sick of using the same old points to argue our beliefs to others, and it was just as discouraging to try my own little techniques (which weren't half bad, lol).

The bottom line, really, is that those who DO get suckered into the religion are (usually) in one of two types of situations:

1) They are already searching for more answers on god, etc, and/or 2) they are suffering some kind of crisis (death of a loved one, etc). Either way, they are SEDUCED with a long list of promises of a future paradise, etc.

Only THINKERS and those who are happy with their lives are never sucked in, lol. JWs quite literally PREY upon the suffering; you should see them work a funeral with all their talk about "seeing your dead loved ones again in paradise"!!!...in fact, it's how *I* was hooked all those years ago.

Again, I'm BEYOND GRATEFUL to have broken free of all their chains.
.

Posted by: psychoticalice13 | September 9, 2010 2:01 AM

.
@Robert,

They are always released about a month-ish ahead, especially if you live in NY where the world headquarters is.

Posted by: yaburrow | September 9, 2010 5:02 AM

@ John Morales (comment 279) - thank you for your inclusive attitude.

I don't believe in God(s) in the sense of assenting to an intellectual proposition that there is a supernatural creator deity. However, that view of God (according to Karen Armstrong) actually only became the only view of God after the Reformation.

Prior to that, apophatic theologians such as Eriugena (9th century) were saying that God doesn't exist as a thing or a being but is Being itself. Well, Being doesn't exist either, because there is only process.

So I regard the Divine as a symbol of all that is harmonious, beautiful and good. Of course it doesn't exist as a person or a thing - neither does Father Christmas - he's a symbol of jollity, merriment and conviviality - and a very effective symbol too.

On another note, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not trying to convert anyone to my point of view - just trying to point out that dismissing all religion as equally bad doesn't help anyone. Unitarianism has been including atheists since the early 20th century, and including humanists and agnostics well before that. Early in its existence, people realised (at a meeting in Torda, Transylvania in the 16th century) that they were never going to agree on everything, so they decided that people should be free to work out the truth for themselves, and tolerant of other people who arrived at different conclusions.

Posted by: John Morales | September 9, 2010 5:56 AM

yaburrow, process theology has been discussed here before.

As I said, you're an atheist; all you're doing is avoiding the term and redefining Divine away from the supernatural, apparently because you cannot shed religious modes of thought.

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 9, 2010 6:41 AM

Both have never been proven to be the full truth

Nothing has ever been proven to be the full truth.

I'm serious. Consider solipsism. How could I prove anything other than my mind exists in any other way than being a figment of my (remarkably consistent) imagination?

All we can do is make arguments from parsimony: the hypotheses which require the smallest number of extra assumptions are to be preferred.

When people try to degrade others because of their chosen viewpoints it honestly crosses a line.

We see silliness, we point and laugh.

I could never truly understand or comprehend if something, perhaps, other worldly or powerful maybe did take part in the creation of this existence somewhat. Who am I to say that it is impossible?

What Dania said – it's by no means impossible, it's just an unnecessary assumption.

I have read the God Delusion, because I noticed it got mentioned in previous comments, it was interesting but not enough to make me think some form of god or creator couldn't exist.

That's not what that book even tries to establish!

Did you read the chapter headline that says "Why there is almost certainly no god"?

However, that view of God (according to Karen Armstrong) actually only became the only view of God after the Reformation.

Prior to that, apophatic theologians such as Eriugena (9th century) were saying that God doesn't exist as a thing or a being but is Being itself.

Yeah, and almost nobody listened to them – or was even able to read Latin well enough to understand what those few people wrote, let alone having access to the extremely small number of manuscripts!

Armstrong seems to know remarkably little history.

So I regard the Divine as a symbol of all that is harmonious, beautiful and good. Of course it doesn't exist as a person or a thing - neither does Father Christmas - he's a symbol of jollity, merriment and conviviality - and a very effective symbol too.

You're an atheist. Plain and simple. :-|

Posted by: yaburrow | September 9, 2010 7:02 AM

@ David Marjanović (#288) & John Morales (#288) - Yes, I am an atheist, but I happen to think that spirituality (stuff like meditation and ritual) can be practised in community without reference to the supernatural, and that we can share ideas and values in community without forcing each other to conform to a creed (Unitarians have been doing this with remarkable success for 400 years).

I am an atheist in the sense that I don't believe in a supernatural creator deity. But I am not against all religion, as some people here seem to be. I am against the kind of religion that involves brainwashing people - but not all religion is like that.

I am also aware that there are lots of people who like practising religion (spirituality in community) who don't believe in the god of the fundamentalists, or in any god, and I think they should be free to practice their religion without being told it's superstition, or "woo" or whatever.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 9, 2010 7:18 AM

Yawn, spiritualist are so boring and vacuous. Mentioning spirituality causes me get a death grip on both my wallet and brain, as there is inane BS coming down the road.

Posted by: yaburrow | September 9, 2010 8:37 AM

I can't speak for Jenna, but I have encountered atheists in real-life situations who were adamant that all religion is wrong, even the liberal variety, and were keen to tell me that my participation in religion is deluded.

I vehemently object to door-to-door evangelism, and agree that it is different from expressing your views in a series of blog comments. However, it is equally my right to point out where your views are not supported by sociological and/or historical evidence of the actual way in which religions are practised.

I agree that Karen Armstrong's historical method is a bit iffy, but I think some of her ideas are a useful corrective to fundamentalist religion. her books are certainly copiously referenced and well-written.

I agree that not all viewpoints are equal. Views that promote intolerance, homophobia, racism, misogyny etc should not go unchallenged. Homophobic, misogynist and racist behaviour cannot be tolerated in a pluralist society.

If someone turns up on your or my doorstep and tries to sell us their religion, we have a total right to challenge them. And just because intolerant views are supported by a religious framework, that does not give the holder of said views a right to act on their views by discriminating against others, or not to be challenged by more liberal people.

I was just pointing out that I have been buttonholed at length by atheists trying to convince me that my participation in religion is misguided - despite the fact that I am quite open to my co-religionists about not believing in a supernatural creator god, and belong to two religions, both very liberal, and neither of which believes that its ethics are divinely mandated.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 10:52 AM

@Jenna:

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive.

An agnostic states that it is impossible to know whether there is or is not a god. I am agnostic. Most Christians I know profess to be non-agnostic - saying they know there's a god because of various anecdotes and blah blah I get tired of trying to figure out what they're saying.

An atheist does not believe in any gods. They do not claim 'there is no god' because that would be an impossible thing to state. There is merely no reason to believe in the existence of any god.

I am okay with a person's personal beliefs. Whether you're a Christian, an atheist, a Muslim, a Buddhist - it doesn't matter to me. If you try to argue with me about religion, I will defend my understanding. If you try to force me to agree with your religion, I will tell you to go screw off. If government uses religion as the basis for law, I will protest.

I am an atheist, but I'm not going to sit there and smile and nod while you parade delusion and superstition as a reason to deny my basic human rights of love and acceptance.

Posted by: merjen | September 9, 2010 11:03 AM

"Posted by: Jules | September 7, 2010 3:36 PM
Mormons take forever to get rid of in comparison
I ran two of them off of my front porch in a heartbeat. I don't know how. All I did was invite them in to cool off. Perhaps my excitement at seeing two hot, sweaty early-20s guys at my door was a bit too apparent. Perhaps I could've put on a few more articles of clothing before answering the door. Whatever it was, I am sad I wasn't able to be of much help to them at that time.
One of these days, though, I'll give them such a deconverting..."

Being an ExMormon... that last sentence so made me LMFAO!

Posted by: Jenna | September 9, 2010 11:21 AM

So you being blatantly rude makes me want to not be one? I just don't understand that. Maybe being a "spineless twat" is better than getting into situations that I know, by myself, I can't completely fix no matter how loud I scream. We can vote for things like that to avoid it, we don't have to go and convert her views now do we? Are you positive ALL Mormons do such a thing? I'm sorry but this I can't agree with and I'll leave it at that.

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 11:28 AM

Jenna:

but if I went up to someone and told them to stop being racist or whatever that view I disagree with happens to be, do you think they will just stop feeling the way they do? Of course not, so even if I dislike it, it's still THEIR opinion and no matter how long I can sit there and tell them all the reasons they are wrong it most likely won't change a thing.

It mostly likely will. We should always condemn racism (and sexism, and homophobia, etc) and fight it whenever we find it. We have an obligation to do so. The more people openly condemn an idea, the less acceptable it will become in our society.

I said I wished "everyone" should stop voicing opinions so strongly, I literally meant everyone but that's just a fantasy I like to wish for and nothing else.

I don't get it. What's wrong with voicing opinions strongly, with arguing passionately about a subject? Do you really wish you lived in a world where everyone keeps their opinions to themselves?

Kevin:

An agnostic states that it is impossible to know whether there is or is not a god.

That would be a strong agnostic. A weak agnostic merely states that we don't know, not that we can't know.

An atheist does not believe in any gods. They do not claim 'there is no god' because that would be an impossible thing to state.

I've never met one myself, but I believe that's exactly what a strong atheist would claim. Also, it depends on the definition of "god". It's all very complicated... :)

Posted by: Jenna | September 9, 2010 11:40 AM

So you don't find it contradictory to tell me to go and join the JWs when this whole discussion has obviously been about not doing that exact thing?? Hah, have you ever even been to a meeting for Jehovah Witnesses? I highly doubt it so don't tell me the whole religion is that exact way because you are way off. I know many people who are, and I have been to a meeting, not every location with Jehovah Witnesses prominent means it's a complete devastation. It's just another stereotype. Do you like me less spineless now? Also I NEVER said all of their opinions, I just feel we don't need to broadcast every single thing so much when it comes down to this subject. Also if I was so easily influenced I would have stayed a catholic.

Posted by: raven | September 9, 2010 11:51 AM

jenna hopeless nonthinker:

I just feel we don't need to broadcast every single thing so much when it comes down to this subject. Also if I was so easily influenced I would have stayed a catholic.

You ignored just about everything on topic I said to expand on a minor point.

Clearly, you are neither particularly intellectually honest nor capable of thinking.

Whatever, I don't have the time to deal with a moron, arreligious or not. Your nontalents are wasted on us though, you really should find some weird cult. You would fit in much better and your lack of ability to think would be an asset not an embarassment.

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 11:57 AM

I just feel we don't need to broadcast every single thing so much when it comes down to this subject.

Go tell that to the JW, because I don't how that's relevant to anything going on on this blog.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 12:06 PM

This ENTIRE post is a Strawman. Forget the comments.

1. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining

2. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 9, 2010 12:07 PM

I just got reminded of this for some reason:

http://cectic.com/159.html

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 12:15 PM

So you've had enough of the world denying your existence?
That's ironic.

Posted by: yaburrow | September 9, 2010 12:23 PM

@RevBigDumbChimp #303

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated". The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.

Telling people they will go to hell if they don't believe a particular doctrine or set of beliefs - that's an example of brainwashing in my opinion.

But, as far as I know, the only religions that tell people this are most Christian denominations (not all of them, apparently) and, if I recall correctly, something similar is mentioned in the Quran, but I am not sure what the Muslim view of it would be - I have never studied Islam.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 12:28 PM

The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.

Not sure how that doesn't apply to nearly all organized religion.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 9, 2010 12:42 PM

@319

I remember one about life in Africa that was a hilarious example of trying too hard not to appear racist

Posted by: CJO | September 9, 2010 1:00 PM

I don't believe in God(s) in the sense of assenting to an intellectual proposition that there is a supernatural creator deity. However, that view of God (according to Karen Armstrong) actually only became the only view of God after the Reformation.

Karen Armstrong is wrong. And I imagine your terse paraphrase is even more wrong. You cite a Medieval theologian but you're not considering the average Christian over the 15 centuries prior to the Reformation. Do you really believe that the overwhelming majority of professing Christians in those 1500 years would not have assented to "the intellectual proposition that there is a supernatural creator deity"?

What changed at the Reformation is that a new class of theologians emerged whose views were closer to assent to this proposition than had been the Catholic theologians of the day, perhaps, but the notion that Christianity, historically, has not been primarily oriented toward belief in a supernatural creator deity is so far shy of the reality that I wonder how you can convince yourself to say it in public.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 1:37 PM

And wow. Mind control. If you dont call that sensationalist. I dont know what is. Jonestown...Wooo BoogeyMen Woooo.

Name calling too. Man you guys are awesome. Did morality devolve on here? Your amygdala is going nuts right now.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 3:08 PM

So anyone out of agreement with you is on drugs? Sounds like a blanket statement to me.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 3:17 PM

Typical intellectual pedestals. Call everyone who critiques THEORY an idiot.

Which theory are you talking about?

Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 9, 2010 3:19 PM

Typical intellectual pedestals. Call everyone who critiques THEORY an idiot.

Would that you could begin to discuss the theory. And yes, as creationists have gloated over and over again (while misconstruing what was happening), the theory has been and continues to be critiqued.

It's the fact that life evolved, as supported by converging evidence from paleontology, morphlogy, and genetics, that you're an idiotic to criticize (like you know how to critique anything at all).

Your misunderstandings of the differences are par for you idiots.

Glen Davidson

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 3:23 PM

So anyone out of agreement with you is on drugs? Sounds like a blanket statement to me.

No, it's not because you're out of agreement with me. It's because you're not making any sense. Read what you wrote:

Typical intellectual pedestals. Call everyone who critiques THEORY an idiot.

and

And wow. Mind control. If you dont call that sensationalist. I dont know what is. Jonestown...Wooo BoogeyMen Woooo.

WTF?

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 3:29 PM

Did morality devolve on here?

As this thread has attracted my attention, it's certainly about to.

Any bets on how we're about to have theory defined?

Oh, I think the ALL CAPS tacofishfry used says it all.

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 3:31 PM

or under the influence of less legal stuff.

Exactly. And I want to know what it is and if I can get it legally in the Netherlands*.

*I believe I stole that one from you... :D

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 3:33 PM

Snap. You got me. My use of internet manners was faux pas.
Bravo sir. For you once were a flower girl, but now you're truly a lady.
Say it with me..."The Rain In Spain Falls Mainly...."

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 3:37 PM

tacofishfry is making very little sense...

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 9, 2010 3:39 PM

Snap. You got me. My use of internet manners was faux pas. Bravo sir. For you once were a flower girl, but now you're truly a lady. Say it with me..."The Rain In Spain Falls Mainly...."

Meds anyone...

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 3:42 PM

Do you have a point, tacofishfry ?

I think it's glossolalia.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | September 9, 2010 3:46 PM

@tacofishfry:

What are you talking about?? What do mashed potatoes and leggings have to do with being a pirate??

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 3:46 PM

Um, Brownian, I think you are right.

what you dont understand

I wonder why...

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 9, 2010 3:51 PM

Criticizing what you dont understand, as sick or stupid.

If you start making sense. . .

And the profanity. Wow. Thank you for showing your brains

Here's a thought: You come hear insulting people and then complain about the tone here. Standard tone troll hypocrisy.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 3:53 PM

My irony meter is wondering why a guy named Big Dumb Chimp thinks what he says matters. Go sling your feces elsewhere.

Yeah, this one is too dumb. Throw it back.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 3:55 PM

FORSOOTH! typical intellectual pedestals.

You keep aping Elizabethan speech, and not very well. Is that your attempt to mock intellectualism? If so, I encourage you to attand a university, community college, technical/trade school, high school, elementary, or kindergarten class sometime, so you have a better idea of what you're attempting to mock.

Criticizing what you dont understand, as sick or stupid.

See above.

Sounds pretty un-PC to me

See above.

And the profanity. Wow.

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Thank you for showing your brains.

Show you my brains? My dear Moron, doing so would be like unto casting pearls before swine.

No, the profanity is about all that you're capable of appreciating. Would you like to learn some choice Greek insults, malakas?

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 4:19 PM

Children. Children. Get down from that high place. You're gonna hurt yourselves. You even need to teach swear words to people...Russian swear words. Id bet you're a master at D&D speak.

WAIT. No. oh no.... You offended my use of Elizabethan speech. Oh god what now? What'll I do? WOE. WOE.

AND my university education? Wait that was the only thing we had in common and you took it away. The GLUE that held us all together...OUR BOND AS INTELLECTUAL ELITES... And not like Community College glue either...REAL Ivy league glue.

No thanks on the link. I was mocking you. You didnt need to do a google search to clarify it. But seriously, sit any higher and a plane's gonna take your head off.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 4:25 PM

I was mocking you.

Ah. Things work better if you do them well.

And what's with the errant capitalisation? Are you also unaware of how a modern computer keyboard operates?

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 4:27 PM

Huh?

Seriously, do try and say something intelligible. Please.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 9, 2010 4:30 PM

tacofishfry: Are you aware that you are rambling and that nobody understands if you are even trying to make a point? Calm down, think through what you want to say and what your point is, and try to explain it.

Or just shut up - either one is fine.

Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa) | September 9, 2010 4:31 PM

Seriously, do try and say something intelligible. Please.

Evidence suggests that it isn't capable of that, Dania.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 9, 2010 4:37 PM

Zab- I believe in freedom of speech. Dont you?

I do. That's why I suggested that you should shut up or try to make your point in a clear, intelligible manner. I did not go out to try to pass a law against people rambling incoherently.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | September 9, 2010 4:40 PM

Taco, why would somebody use a binary translator for hex? You aren't even making any sense.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 4:48 PM

Taco, why would somebody use a binary translator for hex?

Because Taco thinks stupid is clever.

This is supposed to enjoin us to rethink our stance on the existence of a perfect creator, somehow.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 4:55 PM

Either that, or tacofishfry is just being an asshole.

Because that's supposed to enjoin us to rethink our stance on the existence of Jesus and the beliefs of his followers, somehow.

So we can add Christianity to the list of things tacofishfry doesn't understand, right under science, and computers.

Really makes you glad for the existence of adult group homes, don't you think? I'm just glad the poor sod is off the streets.

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 5:00 PM

Re: Brownian, OMG, a sex joke! You just keep em coming. That's cute.

Well, what would you have me do? You don't like profanity, you don't like sex, you don't like science, you can't manage a simple cut 'n' paste...

Frankly, I've used up all my Christian charity on you, you fucking idiot ingrate.

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 6:35 PM

Im gonna write a screenplay

Oh, dear, I don't think that's a good idea. Screenplays are supposed to make sense, you know. I've yet to see evidence that you're capable of that.

Oh, and fuck off.

Posted by: Dania | September 9, 2010 6:52 PM

sexual harassment

What?

Seriously, get lost. You've had your opportunity to make whatever point you came here to make, but you decided to ramble incoherently and pointlessly instead. It's not our fault that you suck at this communication thing.

But, say, if you want to tell us what THEORY you were talking about above, maybe I'll listen. Otherwise I'll just ignore you and your unintelligibly rants from now on. You're a waste of time.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 7:12 PM

Dania I have a question to ask you.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 7:18 PM

Well, the question was "Are you still ignoring me?"
But you answered that.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 7:21 PM

Zab:
Hint: I wasnt asking you.

Clearly you could see the question was directed at Dania, however you thought it was to you. Unless YOUR name is Dania Zabinatrix, and there are 2 Danias here, THAT makes no sense.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 9, 2010 7:28 PM

tacofishfry: No, you weren't asking a question at all. You were just playing silly games. You're mildly amusing though, in your rambling, nonsensical way, so I didn't mind replying to your non-question.

No need to thank me for communicating with you even though you still haven't even tried to make a coherent point here. I'm just a real people-person.

Posted by: timothy.green.name | September 9, 2010 7:30 PM

@ Palaverer #201

As for the other JW, he'll be disfellowshipped as soon as his elders find out he's read any of The God Delusion, assuming he's not already DF'd.

Not necessarily. I know an elder in the local congregation who had that book on his shelves in the room used once a week for meetings (in the days when the Book Study was held in private houses).

Witnesses are an odd bunch, and some are more fundamentalist than others. They actually value education, sort of. Culturally, I think the Witnesses are quite different to your average fundie Christian. They're still quite fundie, but in their own way.

TRiG.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 7:41 PM

And its dinner time, Got school tomorrow morning. 8th grade, thanks for wasting your lives away arguing with a 14 year old.

Later
Mom's making porkchops.

...I was REALLY hoping this would be a haven of the socially tolerant too. Thanks for proving me wrong folks.

Posted by: Zabinatrix | September 9, 2010 7:50 PM

I could have Hate Baited Dania and Zab

Haha, it's funny - it was just mentioned on the Harriet Hall-thread how trolls always think that they have made us angry. They take some great pleasure in thinking that they have made us mad or managed to "hate bait" us... While in reality we are just mildly amused and poking some fun at them.

Like Travis said there:

I have been coming across a lot of silly people who seem to think they are making myself or others angry. They seem to think everyone is screaming at them, foaming at the mouth and losing it. For some reason they cannot see the sarcasm, the jokes and realize it is quite the opposite, that people are enjoying it and often laughing their asses of. Though sometimes it just gets sad and frustrating. But rarely would I use the word anger to describe my feelings towards such people.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 8:11 PM

Page Recap:

Moron x 8
F**k x 25
Idiot x 18
Stupid x 14
JW Baiting x 8
Troll x 11

Who's trolling? This ENTIRE article is based on one completely out-of-context sentence. Give something a sensationalist title, like "9/11 Hate Mosque"...And the average person will rely on their own biases (which have repeatedly been stated) to draw their opinion.

Tell me the title is NOT sensationalist. And based on only one quote. And also tell me that its not stating fact: That atheism is growing, and more visible...

No attacks. I just think the author has stirred something ridiculous, and when people see a minority group such as JWs (Who are for the most part great people) they sense that one particle per million of blood and attack. Its quite predatory, and most of you reasonable thinkers should be ashamed.

This article promises an irony. But the only irony is the reaction of the so-called reasonable. And please include

Posted by: Brownian, Most Vicious & Petty of Pharyngulites | September 9, 2010 9:08 PM

Its quite predatory, and most of you reasonable thinkers should be ashamed.

And you wrote how many posts 'baiting' (on the internet, it's called trolling) people before writing your thesis?

You've no standing to criticise anyone's behaviour, you dishonest, insincere, hypocritical piece of shit. You're about as novel as a stromatolite, and about half as clever.

So get bent, you fucking dumbass.

There: more profanity and insults. Feel free to run off to your mommy and cry that after hours of being a dishonest little fuck, some atheist called you mean names. I hope she's proud.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 9, 2010 9:26 PM

And in case anyone missed it:

"PS in 100 years MC1R gene will be practically gone. "

Another myth.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 9, 2010 9:39 PM

That was one of the weirder trolls we've had.

Posted by: tacofishfry | September 9, 2010 9:45 PM

By the way when you can drive, hanging out on message boards on a Thursday night in September is about the most LOSER thing you can do.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | September 9, 2010 9:48 PM

yawn

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | September 9, 2010 9:52 PM

Most trolls are either incoherent or superior, rarely do we see both traits displayed together.

Posted by: raven | September 9, 2010 9:53 PM

Oh good FSM, taco the troll is still here.

No point reasoning with a christofascist troll who is less capable than a dog or hamster at it.

The taco's of the world are why atheism is one of the fastest growing segments of the religious landscape in the USA. Their toadlike leaders such as Robertson, Hagee, and Dobson produce more atheists in a day than PZ Myers and Dawkins do in a year.

Posted by: Wowbagger, Man-Hating Man of Pharyngula | September 9, 2010 10:08 PM

By the way when you can drive, hanging out on message boards on a Thursday night in September is about the most LOSER thing you can do.

Why am I not surprised you haven't grasped the concept of a spherical Earth and its implications for time zones? Here are two hints to see if you can work out where I am, pissant clown shoe: 1) it's morning; 2) the nearest ocean to me is the Southern Ocean.

Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy | September 9, 2010 11:23 PM

"But that only proves that scientific research in itself is questionable. Debatable."

The enterprise of science is self-correcting. Religion has no capacity for correction, it just moulders away over the years as it clings to the same ancient books of myths and cedes more and more ground to science and humanistic ethics.

Of course, you're still free to mooch off the myriad of benefits to your life that have been brought to you by science. You just don't get to call yourself intellectually honest at the same time.

"But if a 14 year old can "Man up"."

You've done no such thing. Also, there's a word for someone who repeatedly claims to be leaving, and then continues to post. It starts with a "t", and it's not even a naughty word.

And anyway, what kind of 14-year old doesn't use swear words at every opportunity anyway? Live your life, man. Don't let the old men in robes or suits tell you what words are sacred and which are profane.

Posted by: Dania | September 10, 2010 5:48 AM

Oh, how cute. Troll thinks it was anything but a cheap chew toy. And it wasn't even that good.

Bah, let's move on to people who at least are capable of writing intelligible comments.

@Jenna,

You may shout from the rooftops about your way of thinking and everything you disagree with and not sit back and be a spineless twat like myself but when you come to realize that not everyone is going to drop their bibles or whatever for your opinions maybe you'll understand that you should have seen that coming.

No one is doing anything like that. Being a vocal atheist is simply about not always shying away from admitting they don't believe in god when the subject comes up, writing books about the subject, fighting to make atheism more accepted in countries where atheists are discriminated against, fighting for secularism and religious tolerance, joining skeptic groups... Why is this wrong? People in other religions do this all the time but somehow you feel like you should come to an atheist blog complain about how we just won't shut up. Why?

I never said don't have your opinions, I just said to not be as aggressive and it would help avoid some of the unnecessary tension.

Type "accomodationism" in this blog's search bar to see what we think of that kind of advice.

Point: Maybe you shouldn't insult anyone who does not share your ideas and learn to actually listen to them.

Point: maybe you should care less about tone and more about substance. Maybe that's exactly our point.

Point: maybe this blog is better for people like you.

Point: You aren't perfect so belittling someone else is a hypocrisy in the happening.

Point: tu quoque is a fallacy.

Point: How do my views make you believe I was manipulated to think and feel this way when no one around me could possibly have led me to my feelings on the matter.

They don't. You're just another accommodationist. You have your place to, we don't mind your existence. Just don't come tell us to shut up. We don't like that.

but since I am considered a waste and a troll

No, you aren't. That tacofishfry guy above is. But whatever. Maybe you just need to grow a thicker skin.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | September 10, 2010 6:56 AM

but when you come to realize that not everyone is going to drop their bibles or whatever for your opinions maybe you'll understand that you should have seen that coming.

Opinions are all well and good but constantly making someone feel like shit because you feel somehow above them is just not fucking right.

I just said to not be as aggressive and it would help avoid some of the unnecessary tension.

I am mostly confused about this ludicrous cult idea you bring up.

I would not even bother saying I am an agnostic, I am literally the only person with agnostic views in my group of friends and family.

I can't believe how much ignorance and conceit some of you have.

Open your damn mind and lay off the pride.

I love talking about many things, I truly do, I wish I could continue this discussion further on with you but since I am considered a waste and a troll I guess there is no hope of having any seriousness in this whatsoever

Posted by: David Marjanović | September 10, 2010 8:35 AM

Exactly. And I want to know what it is and if I can get it legally in the Netherlands*.

*I believe I stole that one from you... :D

That's likely, because I've been using it a lot, but I didn't invent it.

Haha, it's funny - it was just mentioned on the Harriet Hall-thread how trolls always think that they have made us angry. They take some great pleasure in thinking that they have made us mad or managed to "hate bait" us... While in reality we are just mildly amused and poking some fun at them.

They're projecting both their own personalities and their trollish hopes into us.

You may shout from the rooftops about your way of thinking and everything you disagree with and not sit back and be a spineless twat like myself but when you come to realize that not everyone is going to drop their bibles or whatever for your opinions maybe you'll understand that you should have seen that coming.

...What makes you think anyone here expected anyone to "drop their bibles" when we just open our mouths???

~:-|

Maybe you shouldn't insult anyone who does not share your ideas and learn to actually listen to them.

Listening to people and insulting them at the same time isn't a contradiction in terms. Some of the greatest insults out there dissect someone's argument with precision and calmness.

That's incredibly insulting. Why the fuck do you think anyone here would mock you because you have ADD?

In fact, several of the regulars here have ADD.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | September 10, 2010 9:19 AM

Ok, now I am offended. Tacofish or pussy lips or whatever semi-clever sexist thing you're calling yourself, you do NOT get to reasonably declare ADD as an excuse for your inanity. There are people on the internet who have ADD who manage not to make complete jackasses of themselves. They manage to do it without even really trying that hard, they just care about making sense. You proclaiming a condition to try to avoid scrutiny for your grammatical and intellectual failings doesn't fly.

And just to make life easy for you, I will now provide the material you will use to mock and readily dismiss my points without addressing them

a) Fuck, cunt, motherfucker, tits, bullshit, twat, anus, asshole, tomfollery, poppycock, bastard, prick

b) I like D&D

c) I went to college for science, so I have a biiiiiiiig scary degree that's so evil to you.

Posted by: raven | September 10, 2010 9:39 AM

Jenna being stupid some more:

Opinions are all well and good but constantly making someone feel like shit because you feel somehow above them is just not fucking right. Which is what I meant about not voicing them as strongly, that's it!

Jenna, is someone pointing a gun at your head forcing you to read this blog and babble like an idiot? If so, post your location and we will call the cops and they will rescue you.

You are here voluntarily. You are also very dumb and wasting electrons and photons posting illogical, pointless garbage. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. Close your eyes. Try and read and think before babbling.

Opinions are all well and good but constantly making someone feel like shit because you feel somehow above them is just not fucking right. Which is what I meant about not voicing them as strongly, that's it!

More stupidity. In my field, xian terrorists assassinating my colleagues has been on ongoing problem for decades. I've been getting death threats for a decade. I'll be nice to the fundie death cultists when they stop killing people, stop threatening to kill me, and stop trying to take over my country and destroy it.

Jenna = way too stupid. Not going to waste any more time on a troll incapable of thought.

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | September 10, 2010 1:16 PM

Dania @ #421:

I think (and perhaps Ing does as well) that Jenna is today's moniker for yesterday's tacofishfry.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/CGt9X3Q80OjbFk4EBbzrhLzfOcHQOiZvrb2Dmw--#a2d5a | September 13, 2010 2:12 AM

Hello Mr PZ Myers,the following is from your post dated September 6, 2010;
" Unfortunately, I was only able to read as far as the second sentence before I was blinded by the irony.

A new group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves.

That's right. The door-knockin', rabidly proselytizing cult is rebuking atheists for not keeping their views to themselves."

I got a real good laugh from your stab at the Jehovah's Witnesses over a comment which was quoted from Richard Bernstein,a New York columnist.This from the very Awake article that you provide a link for all to see who actually said those words,i love it.

How come you did not champion the Awake for saying;

"“The world needs to wake up from its long
nightmare of religious belief,” said Nobel
laureate Steven Weinberg. “Anything that
we scientists can do to weaken the hold
of religion should be done and may in the
end be our greatest contribution to civilization.”

Opps,sorry,we also have to give credit where credit is due.The above quote belongs to Nobel
laureate Steven Weinberg.

Thanx for putting a link to that Awake article in your post so all can see for themselves that you sir twist words for your own benefit.That one backfired on ya.

Posted by: Zetetic | September 14, 2010 4:25 AM

yahoo mess @ #426:

Thanx for putting a link to that Awake article in your post so all can see for themselves that you sir twist words for your own benefit.That one backfired on ya.

Actually yahoo mess the only "backfiring" was the obvious falseness of your own asinine post.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got a real good laugh from your stab at the Jehovah's Witnesses over a comment which was quoted from Richard Bernstein,a New York columnist.This from the very Awake article that you provide a link for all to see who actually said those words,i love it.

Here is the actual text from the article. Just to make it easy for you I've highlighted the author's words in the appropriate brown Comic Sans, the part the PZ quoted (and that you falsely claim he misattributed) is additionally underlined, and Bernstein's words are in bold and underlined. Just so everyone can see just how wrong (or dishonest) you are.

A NEW group of atheists has arisen in society. Called the new atheists, they are not content to keep their views to themselves. Rather,they are on a crusade,“actively,angrily, passionately trying to persuade the religious to their point of view,” wrote columnist Richard Bernstein.

Did you really think that no one else here would have read the article that PZ linked too? Did it occur to you that PZ linked to the article precisely so that people could read it for themselves, and see that he was telling the truth? I know that such an attitude is uncommon among religious fanatics, but it's expected among scientists (and the intellectually honest).

How come you did not champion the Awake for saying;

Finally, it's amusing how you conveniently ignored the point that PZ made about the irony of a cult that routinely imposes themselves on others complaining about atheists merely speaking their minds and fighting religiously motivated oppression and mis-education.

So why did you avoid PZ's point and instead misrepresented the what article the said in an attempt to defend it? Aren't you embarrassed that you have to misrepresent the article in order to defend it?

Is your reading comprehension really that bad?
Or are you just that dishonest?

Please tell us yahoo mess...Which is your reason for being so wrong?

Posted by: KG | September 14, 2010 11:16 AM

However, that view of God (according to Karen Armstrong) actually only became the only view of God after the Reformation.

Prior to that, apophatic theologians such as Eriugena (9th century) were saying that God doesn't exist as a thing or a being but is Being itself.

Johannes Scotus Eriugena's most important work, De Divisione Naturae, was:

condemned by a council at Sens by Honorius III (1225), who described it as "swarming with worms of heretical perversity," and by Pope Gregory XIII in 1585. In 1681, the long-lost work was rediscovered at Oxford University, and was immediately placed on the 'Index of Forbidden Books', a turn of events which likely actually spurred its popularity.

Posted by: anton.wilson | September 14, 2010 1:39 PM

ahm...i don't think they were criticizing. they were simply stating a fact. it's you who
thinks they are criticizing atheists for doing so.
you added that meaning.

Posted by: jehovahwitness1 | October 7, 2010 4:35 AM

JEHOVAH'S ASSHOLES

http://thefriendsociety.com/articles/jehovahs.php

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | October 31, 2010 2:23 PM

But, the conversations have lacked focus and substance, and I am genuinely interested in the rationale individual atheists present to substantiate their conclusions.

So, either bring that conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity, which is not the babble, or don't bother us atheists, or anybody else.

Posted by: ajax | October 31, 2010 2:34 PM

My "book" or my theology have not been introduced into the discussion, though they are worthy subjects for another day.
And my question was for Mr. Myers, he seems well mannered in his dialog with others. But you and I can give it a go I guess.
I take it your answer to why you believe there is no Creator is that you have not been presented with conclusive physical evidence?
First, creation is not evidence enough? Who made your house? Nobody? Who made the universe? Nobody? The purposeful and crafted work of a house demand a builder. I believe the purposeful and crafted work of the universe, and you and I do as well.
Second, where do we receive our energy to exist every moment?

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | October 31, 2010 2:40 PM

Second, where do we receive our energy to exist every moment?

Posted by: ajax | October 31, 2010 2:48 PM

Sili, instead of a link to another discussion mocking questions about life's source, perhaps you could explain it to me?

Posted by: ajax | October 31, 2010 2:55 PM

Nerd, I was repeating back your stated point when I said you are requiring conclusive physical evidence.
And you seem to be stating the sun provides energy for life cycles, which may be true in a limited sense, at the molecular level, but do you believe the sun has a connection to the binding and opposing powers at the atomic level?
Regardless, let's say good-bye, I try not to antagonize with sincere questions, but your profanity evidences a troubled state that I won't no interchange with.
Adios and best wishes.

Posted by: ajax | October 31, 2010 3:32 PM

Hello Janine, sorry that my questions are nonsense to you. They are not to me.
Perhaps you can help?
How do folks believe that something like a house could never build itself, but a universe and life can?
How does life continue without some life force every instant providing power?
My desire to learn is conditional, you are correct. I refrain from discourse characterized by insults and profanity. If that precludes us from talking, so be it.
Finally, how about I will not try and read your mind and assume you a liar, and you don't accept that I do wish the best... to you and all?

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | October 31, 2010 3:51 PM

Ajax, I will play on your admitted bias and say this; Fuck You.

If the fact that I said this makes you less inclined to learn anything, the problem is with you.

Look up "The Blind Watch Maker Argument" if my profanity has not shut off your brain. Here is a hint, a living being is not a house. They are formed in very different ways.

As for your claim that you wish the best for us, I ask this simple question. If I do not accept your messiah as my savior, will I deserve eternal torment?

Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline. | October 31, 2010 3:53 PM

How do folks believe that something like a house could never build itself, but a universe and life can?

I have yet to see a universe being built. Show me how to create a universe, and I'll believe it's possible to do it.

How does life continue without some life force every instant providing power?

My desire to learn is conditional, you are correct.

I refrain from discourse characterized by insults and profanity.

If that precludes us from talking, so be it.

Posted by: ajax | October 31, 2010 3:57 PM

Wow, I guess vitriol is a common characteristic of atheists.
Has not been my experience at the door, perhaps something about this site.
Oh well, wish you all well folks.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | October 31, 2010 4:08 PM

For those of you who wish to know what ATP is...

Posted by: pixelfish | October 31, 2010 4:17 PM

How do folks not believe in a Creator? Well, that's pretty simple actually. You look around and you see STUFF and you go, OMG! STUFF! SOMEBODY MADE IT. END OF STORY. We look around and we see stuff, and we go, hey, how did this get here and we observe and come up with theories and test those theories and

So, Yosemite. My family loves Yosemite. I'm pretty certain that my mother, without too much thinking about it, considers that god has crafted Yosemite because he loves us so much.

I'm pretty certain that Yosemite is the result of millions of years of plate tectonics, erosion, and an evolving biota. God didn't scoop the valley out by using a giant garden hose in the sky. The valley exists because the world shifts and shudders underneath us every day. No god needed--just millions of years of tiny shifts, while on the surface, chemical interactions do their thing, bonds breaking and forming, until basic cellular life emerged from the resultant stew. Those cells did their thing for a very long time, divided and the divisions failed to meet up again as the exact same cellular beastie, evolving micro-generation after micro-generation until they got more and more complex. Eventually we end up with primitive plants and primitive animals crawling all over the surface of that spinning, shifting, breaking mass we call a planet, and form biological niches and systems, all without the divine hand of anybody. They either survive or they don't, but weirdly enough the ones that survive long enough to breed seem to pass on a set of traits that make the next generation possibly more likely to survive. And after millions and millions of years, you get a pretty valley with some bears and some birds and some raccoons and a hell of a lot of mosquitos and this other pesky animal that insists on reforming its environment to its own needs and makes roads and that's how you get Yosemite without a Creator, Capital C. Too bad that last pesky animal is so neurotic that they think everything revolves around it.

And then energy for all this action and movement and division and evolving? Well, a lot of it comes from the sun, as the sun acts as the sort of battery for our solar system, but a long time before that, we presume that a compressed mass of some kind expanded suddenly and all that matter was flung across the universe with a shit tonne of energy resulting. (Folks who are better versed in this than I can come in and refine this statement.)

With the Big Bang and evolution, it's my understanding that a simple system grows more complexly over aeons. Whereas with a Creator, you're asking me to believe that a complex system was in place from the start, which even here on this little planet, seems quite dubious, since no system I've seen springs into being wholly formed, not even on our microcosmic level.

Also the Creator idea requires the Creator to run around keeping tabs on everything, whereas the evolving systems don't have an end goal, whatever happens, happens, and everything ticks along nicely. You've gone and appended your own species neuroticism and species ego onto your Creator story to account for why your good looks like you.

You've also failed to really examine a lot of weird repercussions to your own theology.
How do folks believe that something like a god would just come into being or has always been in being and coincidentally looks just like a really shiny human? If mankind was made in the image of god, then why can't we float around in space like god evidently did before god created the heaven and the earth?

Also the house question is kind of silly, because it posits false equivilancy.

Life force = / = energy. In fact, Life Force is another silly phrase. Somebody's been watching too much Star Wars perhaps.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | October 31, 2010 6:07 PM

Let's see how Ajax scored on creationist bingo:

● The universe must be created.

● A simplified version of the Second Law of Thermodynamics violation.

● Confusing abiogenesis and evolution.

● Ignorance of chemical bonding.

● Tone trolling.

Anyone got a bingo?

Posted by: David Marjanović | October 31, 2010 7:11 PM

Band Name: The Worms of Heretical Perversity.

Full of win!

First, creation is not evidence enough? Who made your house? Nobody? Who made the universe? Nobody? The purposeful and crafted work of a house demand a builder. I believe the purposeful and crafted work of the universe, and you and I do as well.

No. We do not believe that the universe is purposeful or crafted. It's a mess that isn't seriously consistent with any purpose that has yet been imagined.

Second, where do we receive our energy to exist every moment?

To exist?

To literally exist?

You seem to believe that a miracle is required at every moment to prevent us from disappearing into nothing. That, however, is not the case. First law of thermodynamics: energy cannot be created or destroyed, only shuffled around.

A later comment by you implies that you don't mean "exist", you mean "keep living". What Owlmirror said – life is a system of chemical reactions. That's why it's a matter of degree; whether viruses live depends on which definition of "life" you prefer, on where in the continuum you prefer to draw the line.

immacularity

I laughed for half a minute, trying to keep the chocolate in my mouth and to keep breathing.

I succeeded with mild hypoxia.

Posted by: Owlmirror | November 3, 2010 3:59 PM

Dear Unni @# 461,

Please learn to read for understanding. Text that is not inside of quotation marks is not quoted text.

Illiteracy does nothing to help your cause or arguments.

Thank you.

Also, please learn about logical fallacies, of which you tend to make several. Poor logic definitely detracts from your arguments.

But in summary: The existence of nature and living beings does not logically imply that an invisible bodiless omnipotent omniscient unnatural person created those things.

Personally, I thank other human beings. And I can be happy without pretending that an invisible bodiless omnipotent omniscient unnatural person exists, and loves me, when there is no evidence of such a person existing.

Thank you.

Posted by: Thebear, just an agent of peas | November 3, 2010 4:32 PM

What's the deal with fuzzy thinking and bad punctuation?

Does anybody remember where the Attenborough-quote first appeared btw? I seem to remember he saying it, but can't remember where.

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | November 3, 2010 4:48 PM

TheBear, an easy thing to do is copy the quote I used and put it in a search engine.

I got this version from Wikipedia. The Wikipedia article attributes it to the Sydney Morning Herald, March 25, 2003. He has used this story numerous times. And I have read this quoted in Pharyngula and other sites many times. I made a mistake in assuming that I did not need to provide a link.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | November 3, 2010 5:08 PM

I mean when you look at the BEAUTIFUL things we have around us..: The flowers the trees that change colors in the fall the bees who make honey and help the flowers grow in the spring and summer, the birds who they go west in the winter... and say there's NO God who made these things!... I mean like who would we thank??? and be happy because we can see that God loves us???? Just something to think about.....

I look around and see amazing things all the time, from where I sit right now I can see a hundred foot tall tree that has been growing for decades, orange and yellow leaves falling off of trees in preparation for winter, children playing at a park, blue sky and the effects of the brilliant autumn sun that is now shining from the other side of my building. I can see the ocean at high tide, and know that there are crabs down there enjoying life.

You know what else I can see? That sun is putting out visible light, but it also poisons every single one of the people or children that I can see with harmful, cancer causing ultraviolet radiation. I can see that due to infectious disease and genetic disorders that not all of those children playing will have a chance to live fulfilling adult lives. I can see that hundred foot tall tree, when it falls, will kill other plants, animals, and possibly even humans. I can see that every growing thing in my sight produces pollen or spores or seeds that some people are deathly allergic to. I can see that someday there will be an earthquake and every single thing that I see right now will be wiped out by a tsunami, or that a meteor will crash down and ruin even the mountains behind me, or if those things don't happen my precious island will dwindle under the onslaught of erosion and eventually pass beneath the waves.

I see that for every beauty, there is a price to be paid and I think that the price we already pay is enough. I refuse to thank someone for a gift if they turn around and ask a terrible payment.

Posted by: Thebear, just an agent of peas | November 3, 2010 5:33 PM

@ Janine: I always find first-quotes useful, but he seems to have heavily recycled this one, so it's probably not worth bother finding out where he used it first :)

I had a suspicion that it was first some tv programme or something, and google usually doesn't work well with those (this is of course just an excuse for me being a lazy git for a moment)

Thanks btw :)