Pharyngula

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | December 21, 2010 8:28 AM

... I don't even... what is this?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 21, 2010 8:33 AM

The relentless attack on European heritage has been expanded to mythology. Hollywood isn’t just re-writing recent history, they want to re-write European mythology and folklore with a left-wing multi-cultural slant.

Incredible. It's like Racist Comic-book Guy: "Not canon!!!!"

You know, I think Sammy Davis Jr. would have made an excellent Loki.

Posted by: Ströh | December 21, 2010 8:35 AM

Why american neo-nazi co-opts Norse mythology I will never understand. It's obvious why their Scandinavian counterparts do it: it makes sense. They can imagine themselves to be the real deal, blood relatives of the vikings or some shit like that.

But Americans? That's just poor form.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | December 21, 2010 8:37 AM

But you have to admit, casting a black man as a Norse god IS pretty dumb. As dumb as casting Brad Pitt as Shaka Zulu, Or Tom Cruise as Nelson Mandela.

I beg to differ. Shaka Zulu and Nelson Mandela exist or existed.

Posted by: Balstrome | December 21, 2010 8:39 AM

It must be something in the water, that makes the poorly educated that stupid. Because there is no way any education can sink to such levels without the assistance of some external agency.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 21, 2010 8:40 AM

Ok when is the clown going to jump out from behind the cake?

Posted by: SamB | December 21, 2010 8:40 AM

o noes!

Actually, there is some "validity" in the criticism of the choice of casting for Heimdall, for a given value of "validity". See, in Norse mythology he is (I believe) Heimdall the White. White! As in not black! hurrdurr and so forth. The problem with this is that it takes a very literal view of this epithet, which doesn't really hold - consider that, at the time, the Vikings probably hadn't been able to explore the world enough to be able to make distinctions based on skin tone, amongst other things, making this interpretation of the epithet quite bad. More likely is that "the White" had a different significance (in the way "the red" might imply violence) that has merely been lost in the mists of time.

SO IN CONCLUSION: lol racism

Posted by: Ströh | December 21, 2010 8:45 AM

Add one point to Marvel for mythological irony by the way: The Edda describes Heimdall as the whitest of the Aesir. What they mean by white is apparently not all that clear, but still - that's hilarious. It has to be intentional.

Posted by: Blueaussi | December 21, 2010 8:47 AM

If you follow the links to http://boycott-thor.com/

there's a poll...

Posted by: llewelly | December 21, 2010 8:48 AM

ha ha!
Take that, Stormfront!

Posted by: geertjansmulders | December 21, 2010 8:48 AM

Fun fact about the cofcc: They can't tell the difference between left and right.

10,000 points for anyone that finds why in the linked article.

Posted by: t3knomanser | December 21, 2010 8:49 AM

Oh, also: let's keep in mind that the Marvel Asgardians are aliens with exceedingly advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic.

Nobody was complaining when grey aliens were cast to play Thor and other Asgardians in Stargate.

Posted by: Bethistopheles | December 21, 2010 8:55 AM

...Wait...they're upset over Heimdall? The god with the rainbow bridge?

These people make no sense in their lack of making sense.

Posted by: cartman86 | December 21, 2010 8:57 AM

Yeah let's not forget that Marvel is trying to make them a sort of alien race as to not get people all confused with religion and God (i'm really curious was Joss Whedon will do with this for Avengers).

Even if they were explicitly Gods why would they all be white? Shouldn't they represent the people they rule over?

Posted by: moonkitty | December 21, 2010 8:58 AM

These people, and their misbegotten ilk, have been portraying Jesus--a legendary Palestinian Jew--as a blue-eyed Anglo Saxon for time out of mind. It'd be fun to point that out to 'em and watch their panties get even bunchier.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | December 21, 2010 8:59 AM

No, just got my coffee and I still don't understand this... this is just too many levels of crazy / stupid.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | December 21, 2010 9:01 AM

Also I like Chiwetel Ejiofor for the next Bond better than Idris Elba.

Posted by: KG | December 21, 2010 9:03 AM

American neo-nazis have a hard on the size for Norway for anything Hitler said so they want to emulate the Aryan-Nordic ideal. Along with this they co-opted the old Norse mythology

Hitler is reported to have expressed contempt for attempts to revive the old German deities, but I'm not sure how reliable this report is (I think I've seen it in Alan Bullock's Hitler: A Study in Tyranny). Some Nazis certainly went in for it though.

Surely, being a god and all, Heimdal can appear however he likes. In this film, he's chosen to appear black!

More likely is that "the White" had a different significance (in the way "the red" might imply violence) that has merely been lost in the mists of time. - SamB

Like the "Little" in "Little John", perhaps?

Posted by: MS | December 21, 2010 9:04 AM

Casting without (much) regard for race has been going on for a long time in opera. I remember a Tosca with a black Cavaradossi and and an Asian Tosca. And of course Cio-Cio San and Turandot are usually sung by non-Asian sopranos.

My personal favorite, though, was a production of Verdi's Otello a few years ago with a white tenor as Otello and a black baritone as Iago.

Posted by: Psych-Oh | December 21, 2010 9:08 AM

Stupid reaches depths I never thought possible. No, I take that back. Someone has to be on left side of the bell curve. And, I think those "white" boys are holding down the fort on the left end.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 21, 2010 9:10 AM

Outrageous!
What's next? A nigra Hamlet????

oh...wait...

Posted by: Moggie | December 21, 2010 9:11 AM

#19:

Please try to understand: it's a blockbuster Hollywood movie (fiction)

of a Marvel comic book (fiction)

based loosely (fiction) on anthropomorphized (fiction) mythical (fiction) gods (fiction)

I personally am willing to grant a bit of leeway here. (If there were only 3 levels of fiction I'd boycott!!!!!!)

Plus, it pisses off the far right, so that's good. It's just a shame that they didn't cast a flamboyantly gay hispanic guy as Thor.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 21, 2010 9:13 AM

I'm buying as much magic-hammer stock as I can afford.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | December 21, 2010 9:16 AM

@Rev BDC:

No penis jousts?

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | December 21, 2010 9:21 AM

@ viridian1:

"Idiocracy" was not a documentary.

Posted by: windy | December 21, 2010 9:24 AM

More likely is that "the White" had a different significance (in the way "the red" might imply violence) that has merely been lost in the mists of time.

Or "white" might have meant "very blond" (as in "Halfdan the Black"= black-haired, very likely not -skinned). So, someone like Wesley Snipes' character in Demolition Man should be OK?

What kind of conservative idol is this anyway- Heimdall had nine mommies!

Posted by: mmelliott01 | December 21, 2010 9:27 AM

You know who Hollywood casts wrong all the time? The Invisible Pink Unicorn, that's who. White horses, black mules, even a mottled hog of some sort back in the 60s. But you never hear any complaints, do you? Some of us just have a better sense of proportion.

Posted by: Heaventree | December 21, 2010 9:28 AM

I read through their Statement of "Principles." Love the call for "racial integrity." And this helpful tidbit was in the lower-right-hand-corner of the screen:

"Shocking Statistics Between 1976-2005, blacks made up 13% of the US population, but committed 59% of felony murders. Overall, blacks are 9 times more likely to commit murder than whites.
Source: US DOJ"

They're just lookin' out for the folks, I guess.

Posted by: Q.E.D | December 21, 2010 9:29 AM

I followed the shturmfrunt link

oy vey

these guys are the inheritors of the Norsemen in much the same way as Elmer is

Posted by: WilliamJansen | December 21, 2010 9:32 AM

I've read Norse Mythology (as mandatory in Denmark, as Shakespeare is in the English-speaking world), and I know of Marvel's Thor. I am confident, that this will be one of the movies minor deviations from the original mythology.

Anyway; it is just a dumb action-movie. If it rocks hard, I don't care about a long-dead mythology being misrepresented.

Posted by: Moggie | December 21, 2010 9:33 AM

#55:

It's Nazis... IN SPACE!

So it's a remake of Starship Troopers?

Posted by: Phrosty | December 21, 2010 9:33 AM

Natalie Portman, a Jew? I could've sworn she was an atheist.

Posted by: mattand08 | December 21, 2010 9:34 AM

I know a few people who are going to be waving the "Oh noes, it's the PC po-leez!!!11!" complaint flag over this. I'm trying to come up with some appropriate responses.

Right now, the leader is "So fucking what, it's a comic book." The point about the "acceptability" of caucasians playing other races for years is a close second (Mickey Rooney in "Breakfast at Tiffany's", anyone?)

Corollary to the thread: I guess in theory, political correctness can be damaging to honest speech. However, my experience has been that the people who bitch about it most are usually white conservatives upset that they can't use questionable racial comments in everyday conversations.

Am I the only one who runs into this?

Posted by: Iris | December 21, 2010 9:40 AM

mattand08:

However, my experience has been that the people who bitch about it most are usually white conservatives upset that they can't use questionable racial comments in everyday conversations.

Am I the only one who runs into this?

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/3m7DJ5IDuekRrDecB7fQFVvUILuLjxgy#f34f3 | December 21, 2010 9:48 AM

I can’t be the only person who wants to dress up as Beta Ray Bill, smash down the door to their next meeting with a giant hammer then shout;

“Racist shitheads, I wouldst have words with thee!”

#27 – I’m pretty sure you mean John Stewart.

Posted by: KingUber | December 21, 2010 9:50 AM

@1: You mean Kouncil of Konservative Kristians, right?

Posted by: nomen-nescio.myopenid.com | December 21, 2010 9:52 AM

@#14:

consider that, at the time, the Vikings probably hadn't been able to explore the world enough to be able to make distinctions based on skin tone,

the vikings ended up traveling as far south as Constantinople (by the inland riverine route, no less) so they certainly would have encountered dark-skinned people. whether or not they gave a damn about it, i doubt we can ever know. probably at least some of them did; they were iron-age barbarians, after all, and no less prejudiced than any other such bunch.

Heimdall's cognomen of "the white" may well have referred to hair color, as "the red" often did also. but we can't really know, since most of the old norse legends weren't written down until after the norse pagan religion was largely just memory. (of course, before they got written down, the actual religious traditions probably weren't what we'd call internally consistent either. so, really, we can make it up as we please. it's what the vikings did too.)

as for the movie... it's a Hollywood potboiler based on pulp comics. it doesn't matter who gets cast as what, it'll be drek regardless.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 21, 2010 9:58 AM

Wait until they find out that Morgan Freeman was cast as Odin!

(just kidding. it's Anthony Hopkins (!) Cast list and a few pix here0

Posted by: rrlane | December 21, 2010 10:00 AM

I'm going to make sure I get a Heimdall action figure when it comes out.

I'll put it right next to the DC figure of Black Adam (you know, the 3000 year old guy powered by ancient Egyptian gods).

He's always presented as white, by the way.

Posted by: bananacat | December 21, 2010 10:03 AM

As dumb as casting Brad Pitt as Shaka Zulu, Or Tom Cruise as Nelson Mandela.

Or as dumb as casting Elizabeth Taylor as Cleopatra?

I'm sure the CCC are also outraged at all the depictions of Jesus as white, right?

Posted by: Bill Door | December 21, 2010 10:04 AM

Trolling Stormfront is worth any violation of Canon.
The next movie to feature Hitler should have him played by Halle Berry.

Posted by: johnnykaje | December 21, 2010 10:07 AM

I for one am sick of all this big Hollywood political correctness!

I mean c'mon, a Scandinavian god...played by an ENGLISH actor?!?

SCANDAL!!!11!

I'm going to watch The Last Airbender movie to calm down. It made money so it has to be good. Ayn Rand says so.

Posted by: tutone21 | December 21, 2010 10:08 AM

WOW!! Those are some sophisticated websites. Make sure to click on the donate button for the CCC. They need our help!

Posted by: JoeBuddha | December 21, 2010 10:10 AM

Speaking of PC: While I see occasional PC BS on the Left, we can't hold a CANDLE to the PC Ragegasms from our friends to the right! Happy Holidays anyone?

Posted by: nomen-nescio.myopenid.com | December 21, 2010 10:11 AM

Let's see, Thor and Loki have been girls

no, that's fairly canon according to the sagas actually.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | December 21, 2010 10:11 AM

tangentially relevant

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente | December 21, 2010 10:14 AM

This is the first time I even hear about this comic, so I'll just make a general comment.
Most works that are being screened these days are adaptations of works made in times when it wasn't acceptable or recommended in US or Europe to include non-white people in works of fiction (at least not in a positive way). That's why I think it's absurd to protest against, for example , casting a black man to portray James Bond. It is fiction. At the time it was written, there wasn't much chance of it being about anything but white men and maybe a busty woman or two. Fictional characters can be whatever we want them to be. They are not historical figures.
It's quality of acting that is important, not the color of the actor's skin.

Posted by: Porco Dio | December 21, 2010 10:21 AM

Where I was born, in South Africa, the first article of the constitution was, "This is a Christian country."

The apartheid government used the bible to justify much hatred and bigotry and slavery.

When you ever see anyone leaning on religious justification, caveat emptor!

Now I live in Holland where the first article of the constitution is that all are equal under the law. Better yet, this article is absolute and cannot be limited by law!

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | December 21, 2010 10:23 AM

@beatrice:

I'd have no problem having James Bond be played by a black man... *suddenly daydreaming about Isaiah Mustafa... murrr*

Posted by: э̀иэЯ | December 21, 2010 10:24 AM

I realize that the only way to combat problems like these is for secular people to breed them out of existence. There is a war going on here, but our only effective weapons will be education and procreation.

Posted by: Molly, NYC | December 21, 2010 10:26 AM

Not only that, Natalie Portman (Jane Foster) is a Jew.

Doesn't that kinda limit their entertainment choices to Jack Chick tracts and those animated vegetable cartoons?

Posted by: э̀иэЯ | December 21, 2010 10:27 AM

Oops, Noble. It's hard being non-native.

Posted by: te24hours | December 21, 2010 10:29 AM

@103...thanks ING. I knew that felt...off somehow.

Posted by: faisons | December 21, 2010 10:33 AM

I'm of two minds here. First is that it's all mythology mixed with HOLLYWOOD. Rules? What rules? If they found a good actor who can portray that character, I don't care how much melanin he's got, nor which continent his ancestors came from. Take a story, make a movie, make money. Done.

But then, there's the cultural side of this, and the fact that I like to see things brought to life in a way that reflects the cultures they're meant to represent. What do I mean?

1. The Last Airbender. It's a totally fictional world BASED ON ancient Japan. Although it's all fiction, the characters are supposed to be Japanese. They cast a bunch of white kids to play the characters in that movie, except for ONE actual Asian kid... who played a bad guy. WTF? There are plenty of young Asian actors who could have played those roles brilliantly, yet they cast a whole gaggle of white kids. FAIL.

2. The Hobbit. Some lady of Pakistani origin had a hissy fit because they wouldn't cast her as an extra for the Hobbit. While I can see her point (they just posted height/age requirements for the extras, nothing else)... Tolkien (racism aside) set Middle Earth to be based on Europe (in a mish-mashed way). The Shire was most certainly meant to seem like a small British farming community. Hobbits, however fictional, were likely envisioned as European. The whole Lord of the Rings universe was based on the structures of older northern European myths. So... Hobbits =/= Pakistani. And the concept of diversity... here comes the population geneticist in me talking... the Hobbits had only a few fairly isolated breeding populations in a time when inter-regional travel was rare, and were likely very genetically homogenous. It wouldn't make sense to have a variety of skin tones in the Hobbit population. But hey, that's probably too complex for the average LotR fan.

And finally...

3. Thor = Norse = European. Hell, I'm mostly Caucasian (people assume my background is just "white"), but my hair/eye/skin tones are not right to play a Scandinavian/Norse character. I'd look wrong in the role. In contrast, I dated this guy once, long time ago... blond hair, blue eyes, 6'3", huge hulk of a guy... his genetic heritage was all Scandinavian. So we stuck him in a Thor costume for Halloween. It was hilarious. I make a better Hobbit.

So... from a cinematic/cultural approach to the myths, legends, and fictions... I can see why it would make sense to cast people of the cultures in which these stories are based.

Posted by: Nepenthe | December 21, 2010 10:46 AM

@73
Holytape, your comment falsely implies the existence of good lutefisk.

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | December 21, 2010 10:49 AM

@74 nomen

the vikings ended up traveling as far south as Constantinople (by the inland riverine route, no less) so they certainly would have encountered dark-skinned people. whether or not they gave a damn about it, i doubt we can ever know. probably at least some of them did; they were iron-age barbarians, after all, and no less prejudiced than any other such bunch.

Actually if you read a myth called "The lay of Rig" (from the Poetic Edda) it becomes clear that the Norse did care about this sort of thing. The myth features Heimdall, who wanders to three different families, those of Trall, Karl, and Jarl, and uses them to form the serf, peasant and noble caste respectively. The whitest, blondest guy, of course is the noble, while the darkest guy is the serf.

Its entirely unsurprising really.

Heimdall's cognomen of "the white" may well have referred to hair color, as "the red" often did also. but we can't really know, since most of the old norse legends weren't written down until after the norse pagan religion was largely just memory. (of course, before they got written down, the actual religious traditions probably weren't what we'd call internally consistent either. so, really, we can make it up as we please. it's what the vikings did too.)

as for the movie... it's a Hollywood potboiler based on pulp comics. it doesn't matter who gets cast as what, it'll be drek regardless.

Strictly speaking, I think ambiguity as to the moniker of "the white", is irrelevant. Casting a black person as Heimdall is inappropriate in the same way that casting James Caviezel (someone who is not only not Jewish but also has a Roman sounding last name) as Jesus in "the passion" was inappropriate, or casting Val Kilmer as Papa Legba would be inappropriate. Its not likely that the ancient Norse would have imagined Heimdall as a member of a foreign ethnic group.

Of course "inappropriate" doesn't mean wrong. Those in charge of casting probably made the decision in order to make the film more inclusive (and possibly also for humor) and there isn't anything wrong with either motive. I agree with you that there is no reason to be upset over the casting decision.

If they really wanted to piss the Stormfr*nt assholes off though, they should have cast Morgan Freeman as Odin. Nazi gang crime rates would drop precipitously due to an epidemic of spontaneous cranial detonations.

Posted by: Harry Tuttle | December 21, 2010 10:53 AM

consider that, at the time, the Vikings probably hadn't been able to explore the world enough to be able to make distinctions based on skin tone

At the time the Vikings were probably the most comprehensively well-travelled people on Earth.

The word "blammen" (black men) is attested to in Norse from the mid 9th century. Used to describe dark-skinned Muslims in Iberia and North Africa. They had also raided Anatolia by that point, settled on the steppes cheek to jowl with several Asian peoples and were on their way to North America. Hell, if the legend of Sadko is to be believed they even visited India.

Chances are nobody was more aware of the various skin tones to be found than the Vikings were in the European high middle ages. Perhaps some Muslim and Chinese sailors were as well travelled at the time, but certainly very, very few if any Europeans were.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 10:57 AM

As a point of reference, depending on what they're using for the comci base/inspiration, the Norse gods we see may be the 'worthy human vessels' the god's are inhabiting as their manifestations. JMS's run had the gods who were killed in Ragnarok come back via humans who had the same character and fortitude they did. This also meant we got a female Loki...not that the base form matters for a shapeshifter.

Posted by: briclondon | December 21, 2010 10:58 AM

#38 Was that Cavoradossi George Shirley by any chance? I remember him singing Peleas at Covent Garden in the '70s (he recorded it with Boulez): a very 'white' role on paper, but I don't remember anyone objecting to his superb interpretation.

Posted by: Harry Tuttle | December 21, 2010 11:02 AM

Yea, and where were these people when the Sci-Fi Channel made A Wizard of Earthsea and cast all the red and black characters with white guys?

Posted by: hkdharmon | December 21, 2010 11:10 AM

If they really wanted to piss the Stormfr*nt assholes off though, they should have cast Morgan Freeman as Odin.

Posted by: Mu | December 21, 2010 11:12 AM

The vikings left an interesting heritage along the Turkish black sea coast - lots of blond people (compared to the rest of Anatolia). The odd part, the blond hair color staid dominant while the eye color is brown. Very odd combination to the European eye.
As for the Natalie Portman reference, don't forget that they go by "racial" identities at Stormfarts, you could become the Pope and be considered Jewish.

Posted by: moochava | December 21, 2010 11:18 AM

Keep in mind that the Thor movie isn't an adaptation of Norse mythology; it's an adaptation of a comic book that probably has generated more content over the past half-century than all the Norse mythology that still remains with us. The Thor comic has moved further from its (tentative) mythological roots than the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons has from Hobbiton.

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 11:26 AM

@127:

Oh yes. Having the heroes be white and the villains be evil brown shins would be SO much better

*cough cough* AIRBENDER *cough*

The villain in Thor is Loki, his brother, who has appeared as pretty much every race and gender, as well as a few dozen species, in the comic book.

As for Airbender, I never understood how anybody could claim to know the characters' "intended" ethnicities based on the cartoon. Nothing about them looks especially Japanese to me. In fact, Aang looks very much like a white guy drawn in traditional Anime style. But it always seemed to me that most of those characters could be any race, if they were ever intended to be physically analogous to Earthly races at all.

Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac) | December 21, 2010 11:28 AM

Perhaps this is payback for the westernization of that Palestinian man-god. If Jeebus can be lily-white, Thor can be black.

This.
-

I can’t be the only person who wants to dress up as Beta Ray Bill, smash down the door to their next meeting with a giant hammer then shout;


“Racist shitheads, I wouldst have words with thee!”

LMAO. The mental 'visual' on that is priceless. Thank you!
-

#27 – I’m pretty sure you mean John Stewart.

Oh, I dunno. The idea of Jon Stewart as a Green Lantern has a certain...something. At the very least, it'd make an interesting YouTube video.
-

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | December 21, 2010 11:34 AM

If it was based on the mythology, I'd agree everybody should be Nordic, but it's based on a comic book. Not that Hollywood cares either way. Nor do I, really.

I saw an "authentic" viking movie once. Everybody was Norse and scruffy looking, and the horses were little-bitty Shetland ponies. It was hysterically funny to watch a big, bad, bruising berserker all clad in furs and weaponry, bouncing along on a fat little pony with his feet draggging the ground.

Posted by: Iain Walker | December 21, 2010 11:47 AM

Kevin (#83):

One of the funniest Saturday Night Live bits ever was re-imagining Superman as a Nazi.

Kim Newman's short story Ubermensch uses the same idea, only plays it straight(ish).

Posted by: crocswsocks | December 21, 2010 12:03 PM

No one made a fuss when Mos Def was cast as Ford Prefect.

Posted by: Erulóra (formerly KOPD) | December 21, 2010 12:07 PM

Rey is right. The artist who drew that wasn't alive in the 60's, or probably the 70's either.

Posted by: Mike Crichton | December 21, 2010 12:15 PM

Ing, Gerund of Death: Hmm, a point. Still, it's better than damn near _everyone_ being white.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 21, 2010 12:24 PM

the far-left fascists on this board

Zero to giant fucking moron in 7 words.

Posted by: Robert H | December 21, 2010 12:30 PM

It is emblematic of the darkness of the Age that these roaches scurry about with such impunity.

Posted by: realinterrobang | December 21, 2010 12:33 PM

Harry Tuttle @ 114: The Vikings weren't "on their way to North America" unless somehow you think northern Newfoundland is not part of North America. The colony they were trying to establish there failed, but they were there for quite some time -- long enough for at least one person to be born there, which I hope chafes those Americocentric VD*RE idiots' asses.

Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker | December 21, 2010 12:35 PM

If it was based on the mythology, I'd agree everybody should be Nordic, but it's based on a comic book.

That's the nub of it. Its a fairy story based upon a fairy story itself based upon a fairy story.

Who cares? Idris Elba is a fantastic actor who has the screen presence to carry off the role. More power to him.

Now those ginger-haired basdards on the other hand....
(that was a joke)

Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker | December 21, 2010 12:44 PM

The CCC is the mirror image of some of the far-left fascists on this board who instantly label anyone they disagree with as a "racist bigot" no matter what the subject of discussion is.

No, that's not the case. I'm going to have to call you up on this (and I speak as someone who isn't exactly left-wing).

There are a *few* folks here who troll for Islam and who wheel do out accusations of bigotry at the drop of a hat...but to be honest, the only folks who get called "racist bigot" here are...those who deserve it, i.e. the "racist bigots". The vast, vast majority of peeps here (including our host) are admirably consistent when it comes to nutty delusions of all stripes and shades. I may disagree with them on the overall tax-burden and economic model that governments should follow for example, but that is something men and women of good will can disagree on - we're all on the same side here. The side of reason, the side of science and the enlightenment and the side of...well, non-delusoinal non-batshittery.

And another thing - whataboutery isn't a good tactic to use. Let's leave the "far-left fascists" out of it until the post is about them, ok?

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 12:49 PM

Was not the man who owned and ran Marvel, Stan Lee, Jewish?

Stan Lee never owned Marvel, and according to his biographers he never much ran it either (although he held the title).

But to the point, most Marvel comics are simplified retellings of hero cycle, stretched out so they never really end: scrappy underdog everyman obtains a powerful boon to benefit his people and spends the next fifty years or so struggling to gain the approval of his overly demanding father. Not a little of this is due to Stan Lee's influence. As Brian Michael Bendis said, the one question every comic book writer wants to ask Stan Lee but will never get the chance to is "Dude, what's up with your dad?" Stan's father could be considered one of the most influential men in comic books.

Given the number of influential first and second generation Jewish immigrants in early comics, there is a strong argument to be made that most superheroes are really about struggling to adapt and fit in to the American experience. The secret identity, the burst of strength, the transformation from a vulnerable human to a mythical superman. Of course I would point out that a lot of those early writers and artists had something else in common: most of them were nerds. Thor came long after that first generation but the influences are still apparent (as they would be in every character based so much on Superman).

No matter which interpretation of the roots of superheroes you ascribe to, it can be nothing but irony that a bunch of macho racists are trying to claim the characters as their own.

Posted by: KG | December 21, 2010 1:09 PM

There are a *few* folks here who troll for Islam and who wheel do out accusations of bigotry at the drop of a hat - Mithy

[citation needed]

And no, Mithy, I don't think we're all on the same side here.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm7Yept5u6OTIR67BixCfdVMV7_JXKcQAY | December 21, 2010 1:22 PM

As for Airbender, I never understood how anybody could claim to know the characters' "intended" ethnicities based on the cartoon.

By talking to the creators?

Nothing about them looks especially Japanese to me. In fact, Aang looks very much like a white guy drawn in traditional Anime style.

Well, to Western eyes. But there's a good deal written in the anime community that Japanese viewers see them as Japanese, not white.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawm7Yept5u6OTIR67BixCfdVMV7_JXKcQAY | December 21, 2010 1:25 PM

of course, it would have been that much better to cast a non-white WOMAN! The ONLY thing that scares the mildbreezefront cowards more than black men is black women.

Oh, but if you cast an Asian American woman, they'd have a hard on so bad that they'd ruin their underwear for a week.

Posted by: Q.E.D | December 21, 2010 1:27 PM

Know what makes me laugh?

People on this thread know more about Norse mythology than most christians know about christianity.

Posted by: Lotharloo | December 21, 2010 1:36 PM

Thanks a lot PZ. Now I have to spend the rest of the day reading and laughing at the people at fartstorm.

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | December 21, 2010 1:39 PM

@beatrice:

Mm... Isaiah Mustafa... rawr. He's the man who made me realize my bisexuality, oh yes... and Christian Kane, and Aldis Hodge...

Posted by: Sengkelat | December 21, 2010 1:46 PM

They just sit in their living room fuming ...

Posted by: Callinectes | December 21, 2010 1:49 PM

They cast an Iranian to play Doctor Ho Yinsen in Iron Man, who is supposed to be Chinese. Boy, was there a fuss. Not.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 1:51 PM

Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki would make their heads explode. :)

Why ISN'T there a movie version of that yet anyway?

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 1:53 PM

They cast an Iranian to play Doctor Ho Yinsen in Iron Man, who is supposed to be Chinese. Boy, was there a fuss. Not.

Justified. They moved the origin from Vietnam to the Mid East.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 1:55 PM

Vin Diesel became sexy for me when I found out he's a total geek

Posted by: KG | December 21, 2010 2:04 PM

So while facism is technically a right wing terminology (I think), it's probably semantically fair to use it to refer to dictators who arise from left wing extremism as well. Unless there's a better word that I don't know off the top of my head (a distinct possibility). - te24hours

To use "fascism" in that way is just wrong: that's not what the word means. The word you're looking for is probably "totalitarian".

Posted by: rolan.le.gargeac | December 21, 2010 2:06 PM

te24hours #71

How do you ejaculate in Scottish?

CRIVENS !

Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM | December 21, 2010 2:14 PM

Lotharloo, I will dispute the "humor" of reading Shitfront. A couple of years ago, we had a couple of "racial realists" posting here. It was not funny at all. I could not even play with them like a do with religious trolls.

Look up ha-ha-johnny-b sometime. Remove the dashes and do a search if you are interested. PZ shitcanned the fool when it was revealed that he was a member of Shitfront.

Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente | December 21, 2010 2:24 PM

@Kev Quondam, Kevque Futurum, PKoD,
I must say, you have excellent taste. My last "oh my, why haven't I noticed him before" was Joseph Gordon-Levitt, in Inception. He has sure grown up nicely since 3rd Rock from the Sun.

Posted by: defides | December 21, 2010 2:29 PM

Vikings, known as 'the russe', possibly because of the predominance of red hair, travelled down the Neva, the Don and the Volga, carrying their boats overland between rivers, in order to extend their trading opportunities.

The russe may well have founded Kiev in Ukraine as a trading post. Trade with Constantinople was massive. There is no doubt they would have encountered and indeed traded with people who did not have white skin.

(Source: In our time, BBC Radio 4, 11 November 2010. Highly recommended.)

Plus, didn't anybody see Richard Widmark in The Longships?

Posted by: Cal | December 21, 2010 2:44 PM

The reason most conservative 'Heathens' or 'Pagans' or any with any knowledge at all are angry is that Heimdall himself is known as the 'White Ase' or 'White God'. Now, according to me, That does NOT mean his skin color at all. But to the majority it does.

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | December 21, 2010 3:08 PM

@ Janine

Lotharloo, I will dispute the "humor" of reading Shitfront. A couple of years ago, we had a couple of "racial realists" posting here. It was not funny at all. I could not even play with them like a do with religious trolls.

Seconded. The stupid at Stormfart is fucking irredeemable.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 3:10 PM

@Cal

that would only make sense if the Vikings and Norse actually used their word for "white" in the same way we use it, as a short hand for Caucasian. Did the Norse actually use that same meaning? Does their term for white equally mean pale?

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 3:14 PM

Except for their brown skin.

Well, in my personal opinion:

Their skin is clearly in the tan range of the spectrum, but nowhere dark enough to conclude that they are not white, especially with those big blue eyes.

Seriously… read much?

Posted by: Blattafrax | December 21, 2010 3:24 PM

I see no reason why Viking gods shouldn't have been black, blue or orange. They're fictional, magical people represented in a work of fiction.

Pakistani hobbits too. No, Tolkein probably wasn't thinking along those lines, but the films adjusted the female participation so they can do it with the hobbits too. A 2nd/3rd cousin on the Took side I suggest.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 3:27 PM

@192

The creators state the tribe is based off a mix of Inuit and northern Japanese

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 3:31 PM

Well, there's the brown skin…

Well, in my personal opinion:

Their skin is clearly in the tan range of the spectrum, but nowhere dark enough to conclude that they are not white, especially with those big blue eyes.

and the fact that every bit of culture portrayed on the show is Asian-influenced. Seriously. Have you ever watched the Last Airbender cartoon, like, ever?

Yes, of course. And, in my personal opinion:

I stand by my original statement. It's simply impossible to tell, and the fact that it's an American cartoon with Japanese influences is totally insufficient for me to conclude that all of the characters are meant to be Japanese in appearance.

Personally, I didn't even think to match up the characters with real-world races until it became a controversy. I don't think they are even meant to have identifiable races. If they are meant to be identifiable, then I could not identify them. If the artists did intend them to have races, then I would conclude that most of them are white, as they appear to stylistically resemble caricatures of white people common to anime originally inspired by Disney cartoons almost a century ago.

Posted by: them.bones | December 21, 2010 3:35 PM

piesquared88 #193:

They're trying to make a blockbuster movie based on the Norse Mythos. And that gives them a certain amount of artistic license, however much it pains fans of the comic who would like them to stay as close to the "original" as possible.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | December 21, 2010 3:37 PM

I really don't want to have to research this on my own, but did any racist ass clams throw a fit when Samuel L. Jackson was cast as Nick Fury in the Iron Man movies?

(Marvel Ultimates aside, of course. Most of the time, Nick Fury is white.)

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 3:42 PM

If the artists did intend them to have races, then I would conclude that most of them are white, as they appear to stylistically resemble caricatures of white people common to anime originally inspired by Disney cartoons almost a century ago.

No you idiot...they aren't anime white. THEY ARE JUST ANIME. Everyone is drawn that way in that style Oy.

For reference

This is an anime half japanese half brit

http://lawliet.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/l.jpg

and this is a pure japanese

http://images.absoluteanime.com/death_note/light.jpg

THIS is how the style draws whites

http://www.freewebs.com/misty200299/keith.gif

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 3:51 PM

No you idiot...they aren't anime white. THEY ARE JUST ANIME. Everyone is drawn that way in that style Oy.

Sorry, my info is based on Art Spiegelman's history of comics, where he says that the anime style was inspired by Disney cartoons and a kind of orientalist obsession with whites that was all the rage in Japan during anime's nascent years. That is, the entire style grew out of drawings of explicitly white characters (which were themselves stylized) as well as talking animals. I was trying to illustrate the absurdity of claiming to know the races of the Avatar characters based on things like a slight tan.

I cannot vouch for this information about the origins of the anime style beyond that.

Posted by: blf | December 21, 2010 3:53 PM

one adaption of Shakespeare's Othello [cast] Patrick Stewart as Othello and [had] black actors portray the rest of the cast.

Oh! Now that sounds cool, and well worth seeing.

Posted by: Ichthyic | December 21, 2010 3:56 PM

More likely is that "the White" had a different significance (in the way "the red" might imply violence) that has merely been lost in the mists of time.

I'll go with:

beard color.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 3:59 PM

. I was trying to illustrate the absurdity of claiming to know the races of the Avatar characters based on things like a slight tan.

And instead you've proved my point. Anime style has a standardized facial features that exaggerate eyes and minimize nose and mouth. It doesn't lead itself well to showing ethnic differences, unless it's skin color. The technicolor pallet with green/red/blue hair further complicates it and makes the style generally aethnic. The difference would be the more realistic takes on it that DO make an effort to make the asian characters look Asian.

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | December 21, 2010 4:05 PM

Ing, since you seem to know whereof you speak in this discussion, My knowledge of anime is essentially restricted to memories of Starblazers. In that show, and I have been told others, the anime tradition is to give young characters small mouths and big eyes, and older characters small eyes and big mouths, to represent that we learn when we're young and teach when we're old.

It could be a design choice, (haven't seen it) but its more likely that children have proportions that give themselves larger eyes. Even in anime the 'cuter' characters have more square shaped bigger eyes and when people want to make the characters look mature the style is to make more ovular eyes. And there are squinty eyes which have a cultural reference to wisdom.

Early anime style was similar to disney style (much more so than it is now) but a lot of it was just due to artistic tropes. Since the eyes are so emotive it's common to exaggerate and enlarge them.

Posted by: te24hours | December 21, 2010 4:06 PM

Ah! Captain Avatar was wise (hence the name, in the older sense of the word, not the newer CS sense), and squinty. Makes perfect sense. Thanks!

Posted by: lofgren | December 21, 2010 4:10 PM

And instead you've proved my point. Anime style has a standardized facial features that exaggerate eyes and minimize nose and mouth. It doesn't lead itself well to showing ethnic differences, unless it's skin color. The technicolor pallet with green/red/blue hair further complicates it and makes the style generally aethnic

No, that is my point. Other people in this thread were claiming that they could easily tell that all of the characters in Avatar were intended to be Japanese. I was disputing this point, based on the fact that anime characters do not have racialized physical characteristics and there is nothing else in the show to indicate the characters' races.

I'm not sure what you think I am claiming, but the fact that anime does not lend itself to portraying racial differences is pretty much exactly my point.

Posted by: tytalus | December 21, 2010 4:12 PM

Re: OurDeadSelves, #202

A simple google search concerning Nick Fury and the Drizzle produced one of their forum threads with some complaining about the black Nick Fury.

They should know better than to mess with Samuel Jackson. :) Either he cuts you in half with his purple lightsaber, or throws you off his plane, or...I dunno, quotes bible verses at you.

Posted by: j-brisby | December 21, 2010 4:19 PM

I saw a black man play Salieri once. I wonder how that would go over with the people at Billy Joel's last decent album.

Posted by: Harry Tuttle | December 21, 2010 5:03 PM

The Vikings weren't "on their way to North America" unless somehow you think northern Newfoundland is not part of North America.

I meant that in the mid ninth century they were still ~150 years away from colonizing Newfoundland, having settled in Iceland ca. 850 with Greenland being next (ca. 950) and, finally, the new world ca. 1000 CE.

Posted by: Donald | December 21, 2010 5:14 PM

Religious nuts are still nuts... and bad casting is still funny. You can't get around the fact that heimdall was described in the poetic edda as being the whitest of the vanir, but what do the comic book guys care about the poetic edda? The guys writing the movie probably never heard of the thing. So yes the casting is funny, but is it worth writing protests about? I don't know how people can rile themselves up enough to give a shit who plays what character.

btw P.Z, when you said that the norse religion had no followers it reminded me of the time Dawkins said something rather similar (I think even of the same religion), just to receive a letter from an indignant believer. Wonder when you'll get letters from people who believe there either is or was a giant snake wrapped around the planet.

Posted by: Skippy | December 21, 2010 5:39 PM

Just a reminder...the Concerned Citizens of Crazy have a poll about "Thor." In the words of the Hulk, "SMASH POLL!"

Posted by: thedarwinreport | December 21, 2010 6:33 PM

People are petty about movies. My father angrily refused to see "Lawrence of Arabia" because the real T.E. Lawrence was about a foot shorter than the actor Peter O'Toole. Oh, the outrage.

Posted by: SheepdogB | December 21, 2010 6:43 PM

"I kind of expect the story to dribble away as everyone realizes how ridiculous they look, but then, I've been deeply wrong about how rational people are before"

Oh my, PZ I do hope you no longer view rational thinking and action as the norm in the human population. Those of us who have chosen reason instead of unreason are actually guilty of aberrant behavior.

Posted by: irenedelse | December 21, 2010 7:02 PM

@ lofgren #218:

Other people in this thread were claiming that they could easily tell that all of the characters in Avatar were intended to be Japanese. I was disputing this point, based on the fact that anime characters do not have racialized physical characteristics and there is nothing else in the show to indicate the characters' races.

Actually, there are ways in Japanese anime conventions to indicate the characters' ethnicity. In these conventions, the Japanese people are portrayed with big round eyes, a small nose and pale skin – in other words, a "typical" anime character. But they draw characters of European descent in a different style. See for instance a discussion of that phenomena in the blog Sociological Images: "Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?". The answer being that no, they don't.

Posted by: Samantha Vimes | December 21, 2010 7:45 PM

Bleach is a really good series for showing how the anime style can be used to reveal or fuck-up-perception of race. Many of the main characters are Japanese, one is half-Mexican, and a whole lot of them are ghosts who could be any race because they are warriors from the spirit world, with amnesia of their human pasts. Even some of the noble houses might have non-Japanese members: Yourichi, for instance, looks Indian-- a guess verified when seeing cosplayers: the best Yourichis were from India.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | December 21, 2010 7:53 PM

Racebending on Avatar:

When I was watching the original cartoon series, "Avatar the Last Airbender" (which is great entertainment BTW) I read Sokka and Katara as Inuit-type folks. Both their appearance (brown skin) their environment (living near the poles) and their culture (hunting whales in Kayaks, living in igloo type dwellings). Ang's culture clearly owed a debt to Tibetan Buddhist monks. Toph, the airbender, came from a society that was obviously drawn in part from Chinese culture, including the dress, the customs, the writing, and, yes, their appearance.

The Fire Nation was a little more ambiguous, both racially and culturally, but there was a lot of Japanese influence there. And of course throughout the show, whenever there was any written language depicted--a "WANTED" poster, an advertisement for a play, a letter to a friend--it was in Chinese writing.

I won't speak to the intention of the creators since I don't know what that was. But that was how I read it, just watching it as a fan.

But to view all this and think, "These characters are racially ambiguous, therefore they must be white" sort of boggles my mind. White privilege much? I speculate that the person making this argument was never a big fan of the show.

Also, the idea that Sokka and Katara's characters were not whitewashed is belied by the fact that EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THEIR VILLAGE was brown. They were the ONLY members of their tribe who were white. Now why would they make that sort of casting decision? Either they're both white and so is are their family and tribe, or their family and tribe are non-white and so are they. The only way it makes sense is if you're working under the assumption that American audiences just can't handle having 2/3 of their heroes be brown.

Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu | December 21, 2010 7:57 PM

Also Toph is an earthbender.

Posted by: Stardrake | December 21, 2010 8:07 PM

I have to put in another bit of info--THOR is being directed by Kenneth Branagh. This is classic Branagh casting. He is, after all, the director who cast Denzel Washington and Keanu Reeves as Italian brothers! (MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING, 1993) Okay, half-brothers, but still...

He's fond of color-blind casting when he can get away with it. And he's probably laughing his head off over this...

Posted by: EvenGodsSuffer | December 21, 2010 8:20 PM

And while we're at it, let's get rid of all the long-haired, fair-skinned, blue-eyed Jesuses dominating Christian mythology.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | December 21, 2010 9:26 PM

Are these Aryan purists speaking out against the heretical Marvel depiction of Thor as a puny blond, with a tendency to wear big polka dots??

Posted by: Kagato | December 21, 2010 10:04 PM

Actually, there are ways in Japanese anime conventions to indicate the characters' ethnicity. In these conventions, the Japanese people are portrayed with big round eyes, a small nose and pale skin – in other words, a "typical" anime character. But they draw characters of European descent in a different style. See for instance a discussion of that phenomena in the blog Sociological Images: "Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?". The answer being that no, they don't.

I agree with your comment, but not with the specific part underlined. The typical anime style reflects "normal" people, and a change in style is often done to represent the "other", whatever form it may take.

In Vexille, the good guys were American, and portrayed in standard anime style; while the villains were Japanese, and used a slightly more realistic style that emphasised ethnicity...

Posted by: Stardrake | December 21, 2010 11:08 PM

Ing, Gerund of Death @243:

Kenneth Branagh? The guy who did Trek?

No, I couldn't find any ST credits on Branagh's IMDB page. (J.J. Abrams directed the recent STAR TREK.) Branagh's major geek credits prior to THOR would've been starring and directing in MARY SHELLEY'S FRANKENSTEIN, playing Dr. Loveless in THE WILD, WILD WEST movie, and playing Gilderoy Lockhart in HARRY POTTER AND THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS. He's generally known for his big 3 Shakespeare films--HENRY V, MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING, and the complete, 4+ hour HAMLET.

And I' for one, am SO looking forward to his THOR....and the fact it upsets Scumfront so much is just really nice, smooth, beefy gravy.

Posted by: Marie the Bookwyrm | December 22, 2010 1:52 AM

To Pierce Butler @246---
Hang on a minute! I'll grant you 'blond' (and beardless, too, for that matter), but 'puny!?! Jack Kirby did not design puny heroes!!!!!

(Are 5 exclamation points too emphatic?)

Posted by: morninglight2 | December 22, 2010 2:57 AM

Oh, FFS, I'm a deistic Norse pagan (if the gods exist, they don't give a flying f*ck about us, and I tend to use what the gods represent as focus for my own thoughts) and I'm thinking a black guy as Heimdall is f*cking awesome.

Incidentally, I'm a five foot tall brunette of mixed racial background including Scottish, Irish, Welsh, German, and a strong possibility of Australian Aboriginal.

Then again, I take great pleasure in pointing and laughing at the Stormc*nts and Odinist pagans anyways.

Posted by: Steve | December 22, 2010 5:58 AM

To me, it's not a racist thing. I just think casting a black guy as Heimdall is dumb because it is not true to either Norse mythology or to the Marvel comics. In the comic books, Heimdall is white. I think casting John Wayne as Genghis Khan was also stupid, as was casting Jessica Alba as Sue Storm in "Fantastic Four." Yes, Jessica looked great in the movie (she's GORGEOUS!), but she didn't look like Sue Storm. Call me a purist, but a 'story' purist, not a 'race' purist. Just as the makers of these movies have a right to mess with the tradition, I have a right to not pay to see their movies if I don't like their creative decisions.

Posted by: antallan | December 22, 2010 6:51 AM

@ Phrosty #64

Natalie Portman, a Jew? I could've sworn she was an atheist.

Old joke: “What do you call a Jew who doesn’t believe in God? A Jew.” (Dawkins mentions it in The Greatest Show on Earth.)

Posted by:   | December 22, 2010 8:29 AM

They don't like Italians? Cool. I've always wondered if that part of me was "white". Now I know!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | December 22, 2010 8:53 AM

If you haven't seen season 1 of his excellent English cop series, Luthor, I suggest you get your hands on a copy. Given the ending, I'm glad to see there will be a season 2 eventually.

nice. I'll have to check that out.

Posted by: Amphiox, OM | December 22, 2010 10:58 AM

re #238;

The Fire Nation in Avatar are something of a mix between Imperial/Feudal Japan and Tang Dynasty China. The Sun Warriors are of course Mayincatec. The Earth Nation is more varied (Ba Sing Se is clearly Qing Chinese, but Omashu has a distinctly Korean vibe, while the Desert Sandbenders are Arabs/Bedouin, and Foggy Swamp is something of an extreme caricature of Louisiana). And Guru Pathik kind of comes out of left field, being clearly Indian, with no nation (or even single other character) being so. The presumption, I think, is that he is of some off-shoot Air Nomad culture, which is as equally close to extinction as the typical Air Nomads, represented by Aang.

Posted by: dsichel | December 22, 2010 11:18 AM

Pierce R. Butler @245 - ooh, I'm reminded of a story by... I think it was Randall Garrett, but maybe it was Poul Anderson? Anyway. "Thor" turns out to be an accidental time traveler, and "Mjolnir" is his handgun (it makes a sound of thunder, strikes people down even when they are several feet away, and then it is miraculously back in his hand!!!).

oh, and Marie the Bookwyrm @252 - while we're on the topic of Kirby, he was Jewish too. So this version of Thor was created by TWO Jews.

Posted by: Hobbes | December 22, 2010 2:08 PM

As an aside, it really pissed me off that these clowns referred to "Hip Hop DJ Idris Elba." Yes, ignore his excellent acting work to make it more clear that you're racist.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | December 22, 2010 2:51 PM

devadvo @ # 269 - So I'm taking the French side, and risking offense.

Neither of those tactics violates Pharyngula community standards, last I heard.

Happy Monkey!

Posted by: Wyrd Dottir | December 27, 2010 1:21 PM

Oh, and I know about Asatru: it's a wanna-be religion that mainly appeals to the stupidly macho

Those who think Asatru is about nothing but macho warriors are greatly mistaken.

The value of someone's intelligence, their ability to speak extemporaneously was highly valued.

In Sigdrifa's Prayer, the only surviving non-Christianized prayer of this ancient culture found in the Poetic Edda):

Hail to the Day
Hail Day's Son
Hail Night and her daughter
Gaze on us with loving eyes
and bring us victory.

Hail to the Gods
and the Goddesses
Hail the generous Earth
Grant us wisdom, and eloquent speech
and healing all our lives.

We clearly see the importance of wisdom, the ability to speak, just as much as we see a request for victory.

Similarly throughout the stories of our Gods, we see poetry and warriorship BOTH associated with prominent deities like Odin and Freya. (Did you know that only half the chosen battle slain go to Valhalla, the other half go to Freya and she gets first choice!).

Additionally, the very power of the word is at the very heart and core of the religious rituals (to learn more about that I suggest you read here: http://tinyurl.com/323vmco)

As someone who identities as being Asatru, I think the whole brouhaha over a black Heimdall is silly. Namely because Marvels' Thor comic, let alone the film adaptation of it, were never meant to be historically or culturally accurate, but rather are pieces of pop-culture entertainment and should be judged as such.

Posted by: coultraguy | December 27, 2010 1:38 PM

I meant to say
I have two things to say to this
1. If it is Mythology according to them, why does it matter?
2. The Norse gods are not Myths and if people feel that they are, then should we not be calling the Christian God and his son myths also?