…and this is a 
Lots of people are sending me this news story about Stephen Green, the British evangelical Christian fanatic. In case you've never heard of him:
Green, 60, is founder and director of Christian Voice, a fundamentalist group he set up in 1994, whose website thunders against the vices — family breakdown, crime, immorality and drink among them — that are ruining the lives of 'real people'. Green's pronouncements are often outrageous. For example, after Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans in 2005 and killed more than 1,600 people, he claimed it was a result of God's wrath and had purified the city.
I could stop right there, couldn't I? You already know how this will end: Green will turn out to be some kind of pathological monster when the cameras aren't rolling in his face.
Caroline Green was often punished by her husband Stephen for failing to be a dutiful, compliant wife, but his final act of violence against her — the one that prompted her long-overdue decision to divorce him — was all the more chilling because it was coldly premeditated.
Stephen Green wrote a list of his wife's failings then described the weapon he would make to beat her with.
'He told me he'd make a piece of wood into a sort of witch's broom and hit me with it, which he did,' she recalls, her voice tentative and quiet. 'He hit me until I bled. I was terrified. I can still remember the pain.
'Stephen listed my misdemeanours: I was disrespectful and disobedient; I wasn't loving or submissive enough and I was undermining him. He also said I wasn't giving him his conjugal rights.
'He even framed our marriage vows — he always put particular emphasis on my promise to obey him — and hung them over our bed. He believed there was no such thing as marital rape and for years I'd been reluctant to have sex with him, but he said it was my duty and was angry if I refused him.
'But the beating was the last straw. It convinced me I had to divorce him.'
Ah. So he was a vicious judgmental control freak who felt a profound sense of privilege for being a Christian man. But you could already get that from the first paragraph I quoted.
Next big item of non-news: the media continues to flock about Stephen Green, flogging his sensationalist hatred to the public, despite his patent hypocrisy.
Comments
Posted by: Harbo
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January 31, 2011 8:25 AM
Wow! that's nearly as bad as a Gnu Atheist being too strident.
Posted by: Andyo
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January 31, 2011 8:27 AM
Now I know where they got the Trinity Killer character.
Posted by: Zeno
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January 31, 2011 8:28 AM
I thought the punch line was going to be that he was punishing his wife for not being as submissive as his boyfriend, but I missed my guess.
Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker
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January 31, 2011 8:29 AM
Score one for, ironically, the Daily Mail.
Posted by: Aliasalpha
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January 31, 2011 8:31 AM
Christian nutters (tautology?) are really set on wearing this trope down to a nub aren't they? Someone send him a link to tvtropes, if he can't get some new ideas out of it at least the compulsive clicking of random links will keep him quiet for a while
Posted by: The Tim Channel
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January 31, 2011 8:31 AM
O/T, but WTF???
I know it's HP, but this will have consequences that will hurt a lot of people IMHO.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html
Enjoy.
Posted by: Ogvorbis, Parenthetical Death
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January 31, 2011 8:36 AM
THen again, he appears to be one of those minority Christians who actually treats his wife Biblically -- she is his property and he can do whatever he wants with his property. Of course, he only has one wife and, presumably, no concubines, so he's ignoring some other parts of the Babble.
Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker
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January 31, 2011 8:36 AM
Christian nutters (tautology?) are really set on wearing this trope down to a nub aren't they?
Indeed. Its not really a shock that a Follower of Totalitarian Misogynist belief system turns out to be a Totalitarian Misogynist is it?
Posted by: mr-zero
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January 31, 2011 8:37 AM
Stephen "Bird Shit" Green:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxY39GL64Y
Posted by: Rasmus
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January 31, 2011 8:43 AM
I was going to at least give the man credit for following his bible, but to be hones I've not been able (in the five minutes that I've tried) to google up a good quote that explicitly preaches about the virtues of wife beating.
Posted by: Enzyme
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January 31, 2011 8:47 AM
Ugh. Daily Fail. Can I recommend using istyosty.com as a proxy, so they don't get the traffic?
(It'd work for any other repugnant site, too, I guess...)
Posted by: LarianLeQuella
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January 31, 2011 8:48 AM
@The Tim Channel: http://afterdark.icanhascheezburger.com/2011/01/30/funny-pictures-astrology-cat/ :)
And yeah, I was expecting a little more out of this nutter. Subjigating women just doesn't seem to be enough for these guys in general. Where is the Rent-a-boy scandal?
Posted by: VonWatters
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January 31, 2011 8:49 AM
It's probably already been mentioned here, but they actually had this piece of work on BBC News commenting on Elton John's family.
Was the closest I've come to putting my fist through the tv for some time.
Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas
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January 31, 2011 8:51 AM
Aaargh. Why did you have to link to the Daily Heil?
Don't read the comments section on that story, unless you really feel like having the *headdesk* moment of the year.
Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold
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January 31, 2011 8:51 AM
Green is, I am ashamed to admit, British. Even our bigots seems to be more understated than their American counterparts.
Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker
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January 31, 2011 8:55 AM
Aaargh. Why did you have to link to the Daily Heil?
Credit where credit is due (like with Stephen Lawrence's killers) (suprisingly, they also like the admirable Peter Tatchell).
Posted by: Nepenthe
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January 31, 2011 8:56 AM
PZ, have you considered creating a misogyny tag? Religion just doesn't seem to cover it here.
I'm sure I'm not the only woman here who sees herself in Caroline Green's story, but with a atheist or non-religious person playing the Stephen Green role.
Posted by: louis14
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January 31, 2011 8:57 AM
Of course, Green is an extremist, a fanatic - not a real Christian at all. No True Christian would dream of doing such a thing.
Posted by: Flapjack
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January 31, 2011 8:57 AM
Yep, Stevie Green's all about the "Family Values".
Funny how it was the Daily Mail of all rags that broke this story. I normally wouldn't touch them with a bargepole as they generally lean slightly to the right of Mussolini but credit where credit's due.
I guess Caroline Green wanted his natural constituents to hear what he was really like.
I pity his kids and I pity his new wife.
It was only a couple of weeks back that the BBC used him as a voice to 'balance' a news report on Elton John's gay adoption. I would hope they don't make that error again.
Posted by: latsot
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January 31, 2011 9:00 AM
Green is often trotted out in the UK media to comment on issues supposedly relating to morality such as gay marriage. He's often the only person invited to comment, presumably because the news media are courting controversy rather than because they have a homophobic or religious agenda.
He's a very loathesome man.
My favourite piece of television featuring him is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYxY39GL64Y
First, at a demonstration he staged to try to have Jerry Springer The Opera banned because he personally didn't like it, he claimed to be feeling persecuted despite having agreed (and presumably paid) to be filmed. There's rather a lot of irony to tease out here.
Then he goes MENTAL when a bird blesses his shirt by shitting on it, acts almost violently, comes close to bursting into tears, then tries to laugh it off as he realises what a childish prick he's being. The shit, he decides, was a message from god (which seems fairly appropriate) and he refuses to participate any further in the show like a toddler refusing to share its doll.
I don't know whether the allegations his wife has made are true, but from the way he's conducted himself in public over the years, I'd hardly be surprised.
Now is probably a good time to start the pool on how long it will take for the inevitable homosexual 'scandal' to emerge. Put me down for September this year.
Posted by: smellyoldgit
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January 31, 2011 9:08 AM
A couple of years ago, this retarded fuckwit was crowned 41st Shitlord of the Week over at the Raving Atheists. He is obviously a most turdworthy recipient.
http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showpost.php?p=536693&postcount=2036
Posted by: Birger Johansson
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January 31, 2011 9:09 AM
"The shit, he decides, was a message from god (which seems fairly appropriate) and he refuses to participate any further in the show like a toddler refusing to share its doll"
Eric Cartman: "Screw you guys, I'm going home"!
--- --- --- --- ---
Does British law provide for the option of blowing someone up in preventive self-defense (like Iraq, but for private citizens) ? If the answer is yes, it would apply for any wife of this douchebag.
Posted by: Tualha
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January 31, 2011 9:13 AM
It's really sad to read about how this formerly normal guy gradually got more and more immersed in the biblical worldview, and how it exactly paralleled his increasing abusiveness. Let's hope it serves as a warning to this bastard's new wife, the spouses of other people who go down this road, and the people who regard him as a spiritual leader.
I have to wonder if there was some kind of organic brain disorder involved, too. It's really disturbing to hear how deranged he got.
Posted by: Ternon
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January 31, 2011 9:22 AM
Well, it's hard to feel sorry for her when she is the one who married the freak...
Posted by: Aquaria
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January 31, 2011 9:26 AM
#24:
DIe, you worthless shit stain.
DIE.
Posted by: Balstrome
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January 31, 2011 9:27 AM
Well sometimes a homophobe really is a freaken homophobe. It's not his being afraid of who he is, that makes him nasty, but that he actually is a nasty piece of rubbish.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/3m7DJ5IDuekRrDecB7fQFVvUILuLjxgy#f34f3
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January 31, 2011 9:30 AM
Well, a couple of good things from this story;
This will hopefully stop lazy journalists from phoning this piece of shit every time they want a rent a gob to say something controversial.
Beating your wife is illegal, no matter what some stupid book says, so I look forward to the forthcoming police investigation of Mr Green.
Also, the picket he led against the BBC over Jerry Springer the Opera was nothing like 1,500 people. 500, maybe.
Posted by: raven
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January 31, 2011 9:31 AM
Sad is one word. So is sickening. Hypocritical. Sick. Evil.
More relevant is PREDICTABLE. All authoritarian, dogmatic xian religions have these sorts of social problems.
The Catholics have their lonely, supposedly celibate priests. The JW's have their problems, the Mormons, and, of course, the fundie xian death cultists.
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 9:36 AM
We don't really know which direction this chain of causality goes. Perhaps he was drawn to fundamentalist religion because of his antisocial tendencies, not that he became antisocial after turning towards fundamentalism. Either way, it's not particularly flattering for the religion. Blame the victim much?Posted by: baldywilson
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January 31, 2011 9:36 AM
I saw Jerry Springer the Opera in both London and Brighton; the "picket" I saw was more like 5. Maybe 10. It's also interesting to note that this "picket" almost single-handedly bought down blasphemous libel in the UK. Competence is not one of Green's strong points.
Posted by: QuestionAuthority
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January 31, 2011 9:37 AM
I've known people like him. One was a State Representative in MO. I think "Hypocrisy" was his middle name, too.
Posted by: Stuart
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January 31, 2011 9:38 AM
Hopefully the media here will stop using him as a rent-a-gob whenever there's something vaguely religious worth commenting on. The BBC still had him on despite his most well known stunt was taking them and their director general to court a few years ago. He lost and was bankrupted by the case.
His campaign against Jerry Springer The Opera led him to threatening a cancer charity into not taking the £3,000 donation collected by it's cast and audience: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4289915.stm
He does seem like the British version of 'Pastor' Terry Jones - the amount of publicity he gets is vastly disproportionate to the number of his followers. Hopefully he'll be in court again soon, for wife battering
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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January 31, 2011 9:39 AM
@Aquaria:
I don't often do this, but.
QFMFT.
@Ternon:
Blame the victim much? "It's her fault she got abused. It's her fault she got raped. It's her fault she was beaten bloody."
Fuck off and die in a fire you asshole.
Posted by: Tualha
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January 31, 2011 9:41 AM
Ternon, if you read the article, you'll see that he wasn't a freak at all when she married him. He went nuts later.
He doesn't remind me of Terry Jones so much as Fred Phelps. Phelps also terrorizes and dominates his (much larger) family.
Posted by: latsot
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January 31, 2011 9:41 AM
Ternon:
Well, it's hard to feel sorry for her when she is the one who married the freak...
Why? For one thing, she says he didn't seem like a freak when she married him. But for another, even if he was a freak when she married him and she knew it, that doesn't justify him beating and terrorising her. She'd have every right to complain even if he was deranged right from the start.
So what's your point, you troll/imbecile?
Posted by: Flapjack
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January 31, 2011 9:42 AM
One thing I notice is how he lives his life as a low-rent Fred Phelps. The fundamentalist blood-and-thunder preaching, the campaigning against the gays and the spousal and child abuse are notable similarities.
http://natephelps.com/10801.html,
The only difference is that outside the UK barely anyone knows who Stephen Green is. Hope he's consigned to the dustbin of history before he gains global media traction.
Posted by: Balstrome
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January 31, 2011 9:43 AM
A reminder, men do not hit women, males do
Posted by: Stuart
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January 31, 2011 9:44 AM
#30 yes not only did the Jerry Springer thing end up removing Blasphemy from the statute book but it also bankrupted him.
God moves in mysterious ways!
Posted by: K-Bob
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January 31, 2011 9:51 AM
*sigh*
There's a special place in Hell for people like him.
And those who don't believe in a 'Hell' after death, you can believe I'm talking about CellBlock A, wherein this gentleman will learn the phrase 'situational homosexuality'.
Works either way, really.
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 9:51 AM
Well, how convenient. Let me pull out my Male Detector™, and we'll see about making this world a better place.Posted by: Jennifer T
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January 31, 2011 9:56 AM
#32
Indeed, "Christian Voice" appears to consist of him and a few hangers-on. There's no evidence of any real membership to speak of.
Posted by: bananacat
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January 31, 2011 9:59 AM
This is actually a growing sect in the fundagelical Christian sect. It's actually called the Patriarchy movement, and the Quiverfull movement is a subgroup within that. These people raise their daughters to be completely submissive to their fathers, and then to their husbands after a father-arranged "courtship" to an appropriate boy. The famous Duggars follow this mindset, and it's very frustrating that they whitewash their lifestyle for tv. Not only do men hit their wives, both parents are actively encouraged to beat their children from as young as three months old, and with implements other than a hand. They practice things like obedience training where they tell kids to do random things, and anything less than immediate, joyful obedience is met with swift corporal punishment.
If you really want read more about this, you can Google Debi Pearl, Vision Forum, and Quiverfull. Also, Lisa Welchel from The Facts of Life has converted to this lifestyle.
This go so far beyond marital rape and abuse. Don't let the happy tv faces fool you.
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 10:01 AM
K-Bob, jokes about rape--even for ugly males such as this--aren't funny.
Posted by: bananacat
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January 31, 2011 10:06 AM
Ah, the good old No True
Scotsman fallacy.I realize you want to distance yourself because most men aren't abusive, but relying on this fallacy in not the way to do it. Try again.
Posted by: omatix
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January 31, 2011 10:08 AM
I had the misfortune of meeting Green once, when a college group I was in was performing a play he didn't like. He eventually found all our home addresses and sent us letters chastising us for our blasphemy, telling us that we were to be reported to the police by name (under an archaic law). He seemed an incredibly angry guy. You could feel his glare from the second row of the audience, without even knowing who he was. "A low-rent Fred Phelps" is a brilliant description.
Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas
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January 31, 2011 10:12 AM
K-Bob,
You can fuck right off.
Sexual violence against prisoners is an endemic phenomenon in most prisons (and is, shamefully, tolerated by law-enforcement authorities in most countries). And it's nothing less than a moral atrocity. One of my pet hates is people who gleefully crow over the idea of someone they dislike being raped in prison.
No one "deserves" to be raped, whatever they've done, any more than anyone "deserves" to be tortured. Inflicting extreme suffering and humiliation on someone in the name of "punishment" is nothing more than barbarism. As Gandhi put it so well, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
As a society, we need to rise beyond this kind of vicious retributive mindset. Mindless idiots like you are not helping. If you sincerely think it's ok for Green to be sexually assaulted in prison, you're as bad as he is.
Posted by: KG
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January 31, 2011 10:14 AM
And those who don't believe in a 'Hell' after death, you can believe I'm talking about CellBlock A, wherein this gentleman will learn the phrase 'situational homosexuality'. - K-Bob
Stephen Green is British, and committed his assaults in Britain. If he were to be imprisoned for his violence, it would therefore be in Britain. Rape does occur in British prisons, but AFAIK it is not, as it appears to be in American ones, both routine and tacitly condoned. Nor should it be: not even a monster should be raped. One of the most disturbing things about participating in online discussions is the large number of Americans (although relatively very few here, I'm glad to say) who gloat about men being raped in prison.
Posted by: raven
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January 31, 2011 10:16 AM
They occasionally get carried away and beat their kids to death.
And rarely, the wives and kids fight back and kill the
patriarchialsadistic control freak bastard.Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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January 31, 2011 10:17 AM
There is no real mind/brain separation and the brain is organic chemistry. Your beliefs and thoughts change the formation of the brain. Fundie Deathcultism reinforced pathological behavior and makes aggression and authoritarianism more common. It isn't necessarily CAUSED by a brain disorder you can actually view it AS a brain disorder.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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January 31, 2011 10:20 AM
Stephen Green's public violence by words was matched by private violence in deed? I'm not surprised.
And Green was able to justify his descent into violence and abuse via the finality of Biblical law. I wonder whether he is even able to understand that he was behaving in a monstrous fashion, or whether he really is living the God-given dream - a psychopath's mandate to rape, control, and abuse?
Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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January 31, 2011 10:20 AM
Walton
QFT
Plus by reinforcing this idea that "prison rape is great!" you're strengthening the endemic social disease that allows people like this jackass to exist.
Don't be so quick to feel superior to this guy, K-Bob, You are part of the problem
Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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January 31, 2011 10:22 AM
@Bernard Bumner
I have known a family where there was an alcoholic abusive husband who was 'saved' and fully embraced Jesus.
Things. God. Worse.
Like, jesusfuckwhattheasswipingclowndildo worse.
Posted by: nigelTheBold, Minister of Spankings
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January 31, 2011 10:26 AM
Ing,
An amusing typo. There is something zen-like in the layered meaning.
Posted by: mas528
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January 31, 2011 10:33 AM
There is no hypocrisy here.
He gets his values from the bible, and he implements them.
More evidence that morality does not come from religion.
Posted by: latsot
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January 31, 2011 10:33 AM
Walton put it brilliantly at #46.
Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu
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January 31, 2011 10:33 AM
@ Ing-
I have a friend who says she misses the days when her ex was addicted to drugs rather than Jeebus--at least then he didn't harass their daughter about her choice of clothes, and they could have a rational conversation.
Also, rape in prison jokes are fucked up and not cool. We don't sentence convicted criminals to be raped as part of their punishment. There's a reason for that.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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January 31, 2011 10:34 AM
Jesus says. Jesus saves.
Jesus says. (Rape your wife. Beat your children. OWN your property. Do God's work.)
Jesus saves (If you felt guilty about spilt tears. If you felt guilty about spilt blood. If you ever doubted that you were good and righteous, then let go of those doubts. You're forgiven.)
How much more powerful is a monster with God on his side?
Posted by: raven
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January 31, 2011 10:38 AM
Homicide can be a problem when you have authoritarian fundie xian wingnuts. Often it is the wife and kids.
Sometimes it is the other way around. May W. served a whole 67 days in jail in Tennessee. Apparently the jury knows the type.
At the time of the killing,...
Posted by: raven
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January 31, 2011 10:43 AM
Toxic religion can be up there with the worst of the drugs.
People always talk about all the lives ruined by drink and drugs. They never talk about all the lives saved by drink and drugs.
(This is sort of a joke but there is probably some truth to it.)
Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold
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January 31, 2011 10:46 AM
Well with regards drink there is real evidence that moderate alcohol consumption increases life expectancy.
Posted by: Flapjack
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January 31, 2011 10:52 AM
I've always found Scientology's rehab programme suspect for this reason.
My inner cynic would guess the reason that some religions are into drug rehab is because when your mind's already turned to mush on class A substances and existing in a haze of acid flashbacks, Xenu being your intergalactic overlord is a relatively easy sell. Ditto the wackier parts of the Old testament.
There's a reason not to do class A drugs folks... they're a gateway drug to something worse.
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 10:53 AM
If you're talking about an addict, lives will be fucked up.If you're talking about palliative care or, hell, even just a good time, I think you're spot on.
'Spose that could go for religion in a way, too.
Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold
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January 31, 2011 11:05 AM
My mother used to be a nurse, and had a major argument one weekend with a junior doctor who refused to prescribe sufficient diamorphine for a patient with end-stage cancer on the grounds that the dose was likely to lead to addiction issues.
In the end she phoned the Consultant at home who put his junior right.
Posted by: Lynna, OM
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January 31, 2011 11:10 AM
Well, Walton warned us in comment #14 not to read the comments below the story to which PZ linked.
So I read the comments.
Please join me in head-desking:
Posted by: raven
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January 31, 2011 11:20 AM
OK.
Stalin raised in an Orthodox monastery. Almost became a priest.
Pol Pot. Educated in Catholic schools.
Hitler. A Catholic and a creationist.
Saddam Hussein. What does a Moslem religious kook have to do with xian religious kooks? Although there are a lot of similarities. Religious freaks are all about the same.
They left out 2,000 years of xian killers, witch hunters, heretic hunters, torturers, and assorted abusive wingnuts. Green is just the latest in a long, long line of such.
Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold
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January 31, 2011 11:20 AM
Lynna,
I don't think that comment is the worse.
This is from someone calling himself Jeff, who lives in Powys, Mid Wales.
That comment is currently rated the worst comment on the thread.
Or this is this, from a Sam in Braunton (no idea where that is):
Or there was this, from a Ginger living in London.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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January 31, 2011 11:25 AM
The entirely predictable contribution of a zealot who would like to point out that, yes, technically Stephen Green is on their side, but that we
atheistsAtheists definitely have the most prolific murderers in history on ours.(Aside from that magic, bearded chap who wiped out the entire human race and every animal on the planet, apart from some ship-builder, his menagerie, and his family.)
Anyway, the fact that Stephen Green may have justified his appalling mistreatment of his wife as the literal application of Biblical law, does not in any way mean that there is anything wrong with the Bible. No way. I mean, just because it is written in there, in that document purported to contain the dread command of the all-powerful master of the Universe, in no way makes it relevant to discussions of Christianity. No way.
You may as well claim that drunk driving laws are relevant to the discussion of drunk people. In cars. No way.
Posted by: defides
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January 31, 2011 11:44 AM
Unless I missed something, these are only allegations made by his ex-wife. Everyone should take them as only contingently true.
On top of that, it wouldn't be the first time that a British newspaper was guilty of - um - gilding the lily.
Posted by: toth
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January 31, 2011 11:48 AM
But Peez, it makes him feel good. Why would you want to take that away from him?
Posted by: Bernard Bumner
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January 31, 2011 11:53 AM
Everything is only provisionally true - but discussions would be boring if we disclaimed every subject matter.
It would be very, very foolish of the Daily Mail to publish this article if they didn't absolutely believe and endorse the veracity of Caroline Green's story - Stephen Green could sue for huge sums of money.
Why seriously doubt that she is telling the truth, given the potential cost to her of lying is such a manner?
Posted by: hznfrst
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January 31, 2011 11:56 AM
He must be suffering from a certifiable mental illness, so why isn't he incarcerated as a danger to himself and others? Sounds like another case of a religiot getting away with shit that would get anyone else arrested, just like faith-killers in the U.S. do.
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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January 31, 2011 12:00 PM
@raven:
Actually, wasn't Sadaam Hussein more secular than most Middle Eastern dictators (admittedly replacing Allah with Hussein, but still)
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/guChRaIepO0M4r7TsKmTFzXMlftE#2dab4
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January 31, 2011 12:02 PM
This made me almost laugh out loud:
"When Caroline, 59, contemplates the disparity between his public pronouncements and his private persona, she is sickened."
What disparity? The public and private personas sound exactly the same to me. He just hasn't had the opportunity to take a switch to the 99% of rest of us. He'd rather use government power and police and guns to subjugate gays and atheists and "not true christians". But apparently his wife thinks that's ok to harm others as long as someone else does it for you.
Certainly it's good for her that she left, but I don't think she's learned the real lesson here.
Posted by: bananacat
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January 31, 2011 12:08 PM
Thanks for reminding us to never believe those lying women until everything has been proven in court. It's great that there's always someone to remind of this, just like there's always someone to remind us to be cautious of believing the stories of victims of other crimes, like theft, fraud, robbery, assault, etc. Oh wait, we rarely get reminders about those things to assume lying until proven otherwise. Funny how we only need these reminders when it's about rape and/or domestic violence.
Posted by: maureen.brian#b5c92
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January 31, 2011 12:09 PM
I doubt whether Green has ever been remotely "normal."
It creeps me that I have been in the same room as him. When people disagreed with him then - surprise! - he pulled the usual trick and started demanding respect.
Fortunately Robert Winston was also on the panel and was able to tell him - loud and clear - that he had no respect for him at all.
That must be 20 years ago, long before Green was (in)famous.
Posted by: Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM
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January 31, 2011 12:13 PM
I have an odd little fantasy. In this fantasy, when there is a story about an abused wife, Stephen Green is the go to asshole who speaks up in defense of beating the unsubmissive wife to death.
Adding to the pile on. Ternon is the asshole who threw the shit fit when PZ went into great detail about what he has done with bodies. Next time, that fuck face better warn us when he is going to express his opinion that a beaten woman deserves to be beaten.
Also, I sentence K-Bob to six months living with the Hoax.
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 12:30 PM
I forgot about that.Ternon should show a little understanding. Maybe Caroline was suffering from a PTSD.
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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January 31, 2011 12:31 PM
@Bernard Bumner #67: Indeed. A real Christian knows when to ignore God's word.
Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies!
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January 31, 2011 1:14 PM
Not just that, strong alcoholic beverages can treat ethylene glycol poisoning.Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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January 31, 2011 1:15 PM
What do you worship?
A god that tortures human beings and demands total submission enforced by endless identifications of the ends to justify any act of cruelty on any entity. The bleeding bowels of injured children left to die of sepsis, the destruction of whole swaths of life, the misery of all humanity is justified by this great and powerful god who has been compelled to this eternal practice of torture by the failure of these creations of his to satisfy him completely.
Why do you believe that god is a good god?
I manifest these truths of power, and I know that I do so out of goodness. Therefore god is good.
I will do anything it takes to satisfy my god's desire to orchestrate and direct human suffering. It's the greatest art.
Why do you think we should worship that god?
Because on Earth I am that god. And my means to power depends on it. I must be satisfied. I can not be this while being good unless my god requires it of me and that god is good. Because man must be a model of god. And I am a man.
Thus you must submit to my god so that you may submit to me.
Why should we submit to you?
Because my god will stop torturing humans once humans consent to be tortured by me. Your choices are to suffer and die with the chance of redemption or to suffer and die where suffering only begins and never ends.
How do you intend to convince us
With fear. And fear. And fear. And fear. And fear.
Posted by: Dude... Real Men Watch Ponies!
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January 31, 2011 1:16 PM
Aw, I like watching train wreck. *Read comment section* Oh yeah, train wreck.Posted by: SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu
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January 31, 2011 1:19 PM
Yow, Algernon, that is both explosive and succinct. Mind if I steal it?
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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January 31, 2011 1:20 PM
QF motherfucking T.
Yes, she could be lying just like the 2% or so of women who have lied about these things which is amazingly in line with the amount of false allegations for other crimes.
But thanks for reminding us of that amazingly small chance. It's really important with abuse to do that.
Because abuse victims really should consider not reporting abuse before they open their mouths... they're probably lying.
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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January 31, 2011 1:24 PM
Take it... enjoy. Build upon it :P
Posted by: davem
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January 31, 2011 1:41 PM
Sigh. Religion apart, I'm living through similar happening next door to me - boyfriend beating girlfriend up regularly, and all the time, she saying 'she loves him more than anyone'. Sickening to watch, and not be able to do anything about.
As to the religion aspect, it looks like a classic case of 'for good men to do evil things requires religion'.
Posted by: Midnight Rambler
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January 31, 2011 1:45 PM
I suspect it's a positive feedback. He reminds me of my ex-GF's father, who is bipolar and heavily into Holocaust denial. Recently he's started filing lawsuits against everyone around for libel (including her).Posted by: Hairhead
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January 31, 2011 1:51 PM
davem @85 - What the Fuck?
I had the same problem. I solved it by CALLING THE COPS EVERY TIME HE BEAT HER. Twice was all it took to resolve the situation.
I always find it disgusting that men who, by their own words, "lose their temper and just can't help beating their wife/girlfriend", suddenly find self-control once they are surrounded by large, burly, aggressive men, handcuffed, and incarcerated in a cold cell for a few hours. Amazing! What a source of will-power.
davem -- call the cops. She won't thank you, he won't thank you, but think of all of the women he might beat in the future, and the children he would pervert with his beating, if you do this.
Posted by: Vole
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January 31, 2011 2:03 PM
They had Green on BBC Radio 5 last year to provide a "balancing" (i.e. anti-evolution) opinion on a story about a newly-discovered dinosaur fossil. I complained by e-mail, and got a reply, apparently from the presenter Nicky Campbell in person, asking me where was my sense of humour? I know this is mild by comparison with what you have to put up with in the US, but I was pretty annoyed about it at the time.
I wouldn't usually believe anything in the Daily Mail, but I shall be more than happy to make an exception for this story. Publish it in extra large print for the Gath edition.
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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January 31, 2011 2:06 PM
Your poor grasp of reality, lack of understanding of the nature of abuse, and inability to empathize with human beings is noted.
Perhaps the next time some one hurts you, you will recognize that you are the one to blame. Especially if that person is some one you love.
Perhaps then the more they hurt you the more you recognize that this is a result of your faults and your mistakes, which you can no longer change. Because you forfeited that when you chose this path and brought this on your undeserving self.
Perhaps then you will cry out for help.
Perhaps then some one will remind you that you brought this on yourself.
But FWIW it wouldn't be hard to feel sorry for you, not to me. Not even after your amazing display of callous ignorance.
If for no other reason than I don't think people need to "earn" sympathy, or that there is "deserved" pain.
Posted by: 朴競花/박경화 (Gyeong Hwa)
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January 31, 2011 2:14 PM
People always seem to forget that Christian Missionaries were responsible for the genocide of the Native Americans, that the Taiping Rebellion was due to Christian influence, that a Rawandan Pastor was recently convicted of promoting genocide, and Uganda as it is right now.
As for the typical Pol Pot/Stalin arguments, they didn't kill people because of their lack of belief but rather because of what they believe in.
If for any reason that Christians in our nation are much more sane, it's because we have a secular culture.
Posted by: bananacat
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January 31, 2011 2:37 PM
Wow, you're extremely lucky. It usually takes dozens of calls before the police will even try to do anything about it. It's still worth trying, but most people shouldn't get their hopes up that the abuser will be dealt with in just two calls. Most abusers are extremely manipulative, and domestic violence isn't taken seriously to begin with.
Posted by: Anubis Bloodsin the third
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January 31, 2011 3:12 PM
Green was the pillock that tried to get the Advertising Standards Authority to ban the Atheists bus posters in Blighty.
This was his 'reasoned response' to the campaign message...
Was...
Projection seems strong in this little sticky bubble of toxic effluent!
Let us try this again properly...
Well doofus bird shit green...your move!
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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January 31, 2011 3:21 PM
I do not believe in prophecy, but I will go out on a limb and say that the probability that Stephen Green will be caught getting his 'luggage lifted' in the not-too-distant future is rapidly approaching one...
How can anyone do this to another human being? How can they live with themselves? What kind of sociopathic monster could do such a thing to anyone, still less someone they claim to love? It is utterly inconceiveable to me. This sickness in Green was exacerbated by his fundie nature, but the rot goes deeper. Whether theist, agnostic or atheist, some people (disproportionately men) just seem to be utterly broken, to the extent where they are capable of such acts of - the only word is evil - without batting an eye.
What is even more troubling to my mind, in some ways even worse than the individual acts of abuse, is that society still doesn't seem to be placing a high priority on stopping domestic violence. The victims are rarely taken seriously, and there are countless accounts of victims appealing for help only to be ignored or dismissed as hysterical, and thus condemned to ongoing abuse that ruins lives and in all too many cases ultimately culminates in the murder of the victim.
Society seems incapable, or maybe unwilling, to tackle the scourge of domestic violence.
Posted by: Stonyground
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January 31, 2011 3:45 PM
Every time this idiot has been in the news I have had a cause to laugh out loud. Not this time. Yes his fall from grace is a cause for a kind of grim satisfaction but the cost in human misery is great.
It is fascinating to think about how he must interpret God's messages. The birdshit incident, his achievement in getting the blasphemy law repealed, and now this. Does it never occur to him that God may be saying STFU you imbecile you're making me look bad?
Posted by: "Roger"
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January 31, 2011 3:50 PM
'Stephen listed my misdemeanours: I was disrespectful and disobedient; I wasn't loving or submissive enough and I was undermining him. He also said I wasn't giving him his conjugal rights.
Have to wonder what Vox "no such thing as marital rape" Day would think of that.
Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas
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January 31, 2011 3:59 PM
QFT.
No one ever "deserves" to be abused.
(Sadly, Ternon's smug callous judgmental attitude seems to be mirrored by the views of most of the commenters on the Daily Heil site. I wish I could say I was surprised.)
Posted by: Algernon, elle sans chapeau
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January 31, 2011 4:17 PM
The world would be a better place if only sociopathic monsters did this kind of thing.
Posted by: K-Bob
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January 31, 2011 4:30 PM
To those whom I offended, I apologize. I spend way too much time on web forums where such things are considered both appropriate and funny. (Warning, time-sucking link)
Though I do have to wonder, where in my comment did I say I thought he should be raped? It could be taken as many have inferred, but I specifically referenced 'situational homosexuality', a term which does NOT imply non-consent. It could also be taken as meaning that, as time passes during his jail sentence (my comment DID assume he would be tried and found guilty of at least one crime, several potential ones are referenced in the linked article, but IANAL) he would begin to find other inmates or guards attractive (unless he actually is a 0 on the Kinsey scale, he would have at least SOME desire for his own sex/gender).
Surely for such an 'upright and moral' man, who believes so firmly in the bible, this would be a form of Hell. Thus, it was a joke which could work on multiple levels (albeit several in poor taste).
However, specifically, @Walton (#46) - I agree with much of what you said - it IS a horrible thing. It is an endemic problem (or at least is portrayed as such in the media, I have seen no hard data to back that up). No one deserves rape, I agree with this.
You are, however, wrong. I am NOT a 'mindless idiot', and I am NOT 'as bad as he is'. Nor would my belief (if I held it) that he 'deserves' to be raped as punishment make me as bad as he is.
Actions, not thoughts, are all we can use to judge others. This is why criminal courts use one's actions in their judgments. Intent IS relevant and important, but secondary to actions. This man's reported ACTIONS may have had good (to him, at least) intents. My ACTIONS (typing out my statements) may have had poor intent (if I'd simply been implying he should be raped), but thoughts and beliefs (when not turned into actions) CAN NOT be as bad as those actions.
The entire 'X makes you as bad as Y' argument is fallacious, and using it is poor form.
Aside from all of that...who/what is Hoax?
Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 4:42 PM
Painful, painful truth.*sucks thumb and snuggles Shoogie*
K-Bob, either you were saying the guy should be left to be raped, or you were equating homosexual sex with hell.
Seriously. It was just a stupid, indefensible thing to say. Doesn't mean you're a monster, but the fact that you feel the need to justify it probably means you need to reevaluate certain things about yourself.
The Hoax is a banned poster. Check out Piltdown Man in the Dungeon. I would not wish time with him on anyone.
Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas
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January 31, 2011 4:47 PM
According to the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics, at least 88,500 adults held in US prisons and jails were sexually abused in custody during 2008-9. It should be obvious that these figures are likely to be a substantial underestimate.
Such attitudes - the basic idea that "wrongdoers deserve to suffer", and its prevalence in political culture - are the reason why the US criminal justice system is such an appalling fucked-up mess. There are 700 per 100,000 Americans in prison, seven times higher than most European countries, with many being incarcerated for minor non-violent property and drug offences. Overcrowding is chronic. Those imprisoned are disproportionately likely to be poor, from an ethnic minority, and suffering from untreated mental disorders and substance addictions. The trial process is grossly unfair, particularly for poor and vulnerable defendants, and the quality of state-appointed public defenders is generally low. Most prisoners emerge traumatized by their experiences, shamed by the stigma of having been imprisoned, and are very likely to re-offend on release.
(The UK has been going the same way for the last twenty years, too. The prison population in England and Wales has nearly doubled since 1990, the bulk of the increase being short sentences for minor crimes.)
Sure, typing comments on a blog is not morally equivalent to actually committing prison rape. (And I should not have said you were as bad as Green is. My judgment was clouded by anger, and for that I apologise.) But when you support and sustain a destructive social phenomenon with your words, you are complicit in that phenomenon.
I accept your word that you did not intend to condone prison rape, but that was how it came across - and not just to me. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so harsh, but I hope you'll think more carefully in future.
Posted by: Gregory Greenwood
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January 31, 2011 4:53 PM
Algernon @ 97;
Either that, or there are a hell of a lot more sociopathic monsters in the general populous than any of us would care to contemplate.
Ternon @ 24;
So, you think that she deserves repeated rape, violent beatings and psychological torture because she married him? One mistake, and everything that follows is 'her fault'? Even though it is quite possible that, like most abusers, he is an expert dissembler, and his violent, tyrannical nature did not become apparent until after their marriage?
As Algernon says @ 89, there is no such thing as 'deserved pain', and no need to be worthy of sympathy. Even if she went into the marriage fully aware of what Green was capable of, this in no way mitigates his responsibility for his actions and does nothing to reduce the horror of how he abused his wife. That you cannot see this makes you either staggeringly lacking in empathy or deeply mired in misogyny.
You richly deserve the verbal pummelling that you are receiveing. I would like to offer my two cents by inviting you to make creative use of a decomposing porcupine as a suppositry.
Posted by: Tulse
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January 31, 2011 4:58 PM
Christianity was built on that notion.Posted by: Moggie
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January 31, 2011 5:12 PM
#100:
Which is terrible, but at least they have statistics. Last time I read an article on this subject (which, admittedly, was several years ago), the writer claimed that the Prison Service don't bother to collect figures for prison rapes, so we don't know how much of a problem it is in England and Wales.
Posted by: Walton, Marquis of Carabas
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January 31, 2011 5:20 PM
Of course. After all, collecting accurate information might make the Ministry of Justice (and their buddies at Serco, the private contractor which now runs many of Britain's prisons) look bad.
For the last two decades or so, Britain's criminal justice policymakers have become adept at studiously ignoring all this hippie soft-on-crime liberal "facts" and "evidence" malarkey. (Why do you think Professor David Nutt got fired by the last government, and replaced with an underqualified homophobic religious wingnut by this one?) Instead, they prefer to rely on more convenient sources of information, like the Daily Mail editorial pages.
Posted by: davem
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January 31, 2011 5:31 PM
Believe me, done that, got the T-shirt. He was arrested on Saturday for assault, but she refused help. Unfortunately, it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other - they both get blind drunk, verbally abuse each other in really foul ways, but in the end, he's bigger than her, and he solves the argument by force. Then they deny anything is happening, and profess their undying love for each other. I have at least managed to get Social Services to remove the new-born baby from the equation.Posted by: Jules, Bride of Death
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January 31, 2011 5:36 PM
davem, I remember your discussing this on the Endless Thread. Removing the baby has not snapped either of them to attention regarding their destructive behaviors?
It's amazing to me just how far down rock bottom is for some people.
Posted by: Stewart
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January 31, 2011 5:38 PM
To quote the Christian Voice website:
"In an age when oestrogen is overwhelming the church, this is Christianity with testosterone."
Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist
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January 31, 2011 6:35 PM
NOw all please open to the Book of Handmaiden chapter 5 verse 22
Posted by: DLC
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January 31, 2011 7:24 PM
God is Evil.
Mr Green is Evil.
There's a logical progression here somewhere.
Posted by: Richard Eis
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January 31, 2011 7:25 PM
Green has has always been a banana short of a fruit basket since he first appeared on our radars. He should see a mental health professional. Until then he has only my pity and shows once again that fundamental christianity is barely distinguishable from violent and antisocial mental health problems.
I'm impressed he rallied 500 people to something though. From what i've heard "christian voice" is usually just him praying in a cupboard.
Posted by: Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker
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January 31, 2011 7:40 PM
"In an age when oestrogen is overwhelming the church, this is Christianity with testosterone."
In that case, Green and his ilk deserve castration.
Posted by: ScottDogg
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January 31, 2011 8:34 PM
<snark>Because as we all know, the personal sensibilities of an imaginary god are more important than the welfare of real suffering human beings.</snark>Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe
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January 31, 2011 8:40 PM
ScottDogg:
Well, that's because god's personal sensibilities are always identical to the person spouting off about just what it is god wants, ya know.
Posted by: einsteins.enigma
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January 31, 2011 8:43 PM
There's a pretty cool new atheist podcast that's covering stories like this - they call themselves Pascal's Bettors. Check it out if you want: pascalsbettors.com
Posted by: Samantha Vimes
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January 31, 2011 10:18 PM
I hope this can be a prosecutable case.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmd0JQT5RGH9tw98hgR4Au80-RC1x_9wWY
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January 31, 2011 11:41 PM
fireweaver sending:
Posted by: raven #59 | January 31, 2011 10:43 AM
I used to be in A.A. I watched certain people come off the booze and get hooked on religion. It really was downhill for these people, especially the ones who joined the more extreme churches. Then they became worse persons than when they were drunks. (I knew a couple before and after.) I bailed out after seven years sober and haven't drunk since - because not only did I admit responsibility for screwing up my life, I took credit for doing the work needed to straighten it out again. The others in the group took offence because I didn't give credit to sky fairy. Fuck 'em.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott , Drinking Solo Since Death's Back On The Wagon
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February 1, 2011 1:16 AM
PZ penetrates the point with perspicacity:
I'm not afraid of a lot of things; most things, in fact, just roll off my back. Wanna know what really scares me? Little boys in adult bodies. Snot nosed, pimply faced, punk ass sixth graders grown and matured only physically. (There are also female examples but I understand the boys on a more fundamental level.) Stunted and immature with regard to even the simplest secrets of how to get along, to integrate on personal and community levels or to learn and enjoy excellent stuff like being persuaded by rational means to change their minds or learning to slow dance really, really well.
Sad bastards are dangerous. Dangerous! Not only that, but the little snakes are everywhere. There's one peeking out of my wife's blouse now!
The proper, though risky, response to these quarter wits is to keep away. And while away, point and laugh. This might get you slapped but, dammit! At some point each of us must stand up to a bully, a thug, a child in an ill fitting suit.
I've done that. On more than one occasion I didn't get slapped (close thing, though) but rather gained a new friend! No shit. How the hell does that work?[1]
*yes, I am lately enamored with the idea of italicizing exclamation points. i'll be over it soon, i suspect.*
[1] Actually, on those occasions, I withheld my opprobrium and resorted to a more reasoned challenge. To my surprise someone changed before my very eyes. I intend to use this strategy again.
Posted by: Anubis Bloodsin the third
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February 1, 2011 3:07 AM
WTF?
I saw this earlier but can not work out how that panned out.
How can a Cancer charity succumb to bitter little threats from a pissant like Green...he is not exactly a major player in the Xian pantheon of barking fucking ejits?
Maggies Centres works with the major providers in this sector of human misery...
CancerBACUP, Macmillan Cancer Support, Breast Cancer Care and Roy Castle's foundation.
I cannot find evidence that they are ostensibly a religious organization masquerading as a care organization...they seem secular and well grounded...so WTF?
That has kindda bemused me with an anger...and I am not sure if Maggie's administrators should not be included in that wrath?
What the fuck do they think they are playing at?
Kowtowing to pompous religious blackmail!
Could you imagine a bunch of jeebus hysterical's parading their flatulent ignorance and bigoted rhetoric outside a Cancer center in Blighty?..they would be fucking lynched from the nearest lamp post...and twice over on Sunday's.
And so badly mauled by the press as to destroy any credibility whatever!
But that was not even considered...it seems to be a "oh okay we refuse the money that could be used to provide a little comfort to a cancer sufferer cos your god is pissed off!"
That is truly a damning indictment of society losing the fucking plot in their appeasement of barking insanity.
I an fairly sure if an Atheist club decided to harangue a Cancer centre by protesting about some assumed donation from a theater that screened 'The Passion' and they did not approve of that puerile religiotard misogynistic racist fuckwit gibson...they would be roundly slaughtered after a generous dose of hanging drawing and quartering by the courts.
I personally would not be comfortable with a center gaining such income because it legitimizes a cretin...that is a long way a way from protesting outside it.
(I would hold the POV that at least a little positive was gained from a massive negative)
Weird!
Posted by: ScottDogg
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February 1, 2011 5:18 AM
Anubis Bloodsin the third @118:
I'd support any organisation's effort to donate money to genuinely help people, even if it were the bloody Westboro Baptist Church (though I won't be holding my breath). If they did, they'd gain a little bit of credibility in my book. I'd still condemn them for any negative effects that they'd have on the rest of society, though.
Posted by: Jennifer T
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February 1, 2011 5:58 AM
Apparently there is another person in Christian Voice other than Stephen Green: Robin Philips. His big "thing" appears to be that aesthetics are objective, and he's written an epic series of posts on that subject. Unsurprisingly, his arguments for objective aesthetics boil down to the same "I personally don't like the idea that it could be subjective, therefore it isn't" idea familiar to anyone who's read religious screeds on objective morality.
Posted by: RedGreenInBlue
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February 1, 2011 6:48 AM
Mithy, Imperial Britannic Overlord & Tea Drinker
The Daily Mail likes Peter Tatchell? The Peter Tatchell? The GLBT rights (and human rights) activist? The Green Party parliamentary candidate? The advocate for a British republic? ...WTF?
Maybe there is hope for this country after all!
Nah.
Posted by: alistair.coleman
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February 1, 2011 8:34 AM
Health warning: DO NOT read the comments on the Daily Mail website if you wish to retain your sanity. They give YouTube a good, hard run for their money.
Posted by: locka99
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February 1, 2011 9:18 AM
I think most people in the UK who've heard of Christian Voice would regard it as tiny gaggle of fundie lunatics to be laughed at then ignored. I'm not surprised their leader turned out to be a wife-beating nutcase. Too bad his wife didn't file assault charges on him while she was at it.
CV's brief moment of fame was when they were picketing Jerry Springer the Opera. Other than that they rarely appear in the news at all which is fine by me. What is interesting is to compare and contrast their treatment in the UK with the widespread levels of coverage that their US counterparts would receive. Stephen Green's mistake was to do his god bothering in a country which is largely immune and bemused by it.
Posted by: alexcharltonderrida
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February 1, 2011 2:44 PM
Stephen Green must feel a need to show his biblically legitimate male superiority, given his obvious mental deficiencies:
Here he is on the Heaven and Earth show, trying to keep up with Ed Byrne:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5f_eQcc-wk
Posted by: drbunsen
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February 3, 2011 7:46 PM
Fixed?
Posted by: drbunsen
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February 3, 2011 8:24 PM
Moar fixed?
Naw, he was forced to behave that way, just like poor little Ender. He's the real victim here.
Cited before and, I'm sure, to be cited again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Sorry, no. Just no. That's three of one and nine of the other, at best.
QFMFT.
Oh FSM - one of them.