Pharyngula

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | April 28, 2011 6:17 PM

Wait - I really don't get it. Why do they think PP workers want to perform abortions so badly that they'd sabotage contraception? Do they really think that anyone finds abortion to be a thrilling recreational activity? I just. . don't understand what they're thinking.

Posted by: steve | April 28, 2011 6:18 PM

They must have been getting their condoms from this guy:

The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

Posted by: Sastra OM/COR | April 28, 2011 6:18 PM

I was wondering what the heck do they think the motivation was? This:

“They have an abortion budget and they have a certain number of patients that you have to perform abortions on every month, and there’s a dollar amount attached to each woman.”

Money? Get little girls pregnant so you can make more money?

It's not only that they believe the Jesus nonsense. They believe in Hell and damnation and people who belong there. They start out with the perspective that non-christians are mostly monsters who turn away from God, and who God then turns away from. After a premise like that, this tale probably doesn't seem that outlandish. It fits the Biblical scenario.

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | April 28, 2011 6:20 PM

Holy shit. Even if Planned Parenthood does legally oppose this, and the liars came forwards to admit their compicity, there are people who want to believe this. This is going to a vex for years to come.

Posted by: Ichthyic | April 28, 2011 6:21 PM

I just. . don't understand what they're thinking.

sadly, unless I read it wrong, they think that PP's funding is dependent on doing a certain number of abortions every month.

If they didn't perform "X" number of abortions, they would somehow lose all their funding...

yes, it's bugfuck nuts, and a lie, but I'm pretty sure that's what they are trying to say.

Posted by: Randomfactor | April 28, 2011 6:23 PM

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_Eile/Everett.html

Not that I'm vouching for accuracy.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | April 28, 2011 6:26 PM

Can I get fries with that?

Next month. This month it's our Gala Grand Opening Two-for-One Sale. Bring a friend and get two abortions for the price of one. Twins "eat free."

Posted by: Dhorvath, OM | April 28, 2011 6:33 PM

A real hot dog, eh?

Posted by: marcus | April 28, 2011 6:33 PM

Carol Everet says,“And the way for me to be a millionaire was to sell 40,000 abortions a year.”

Posted by: cfmilner | April 28, 2011 6:35 PM

Say what? ... But ... Really?!

Brain fail ...

Posted by: SC OM | April 28, 2011 6:36 PM

Can I get fries with that?

With a pap schmear?

Posted by: Jordan | April 28, 2011 6:38 PM

If I were them I would immediately be suing for libel.

Posted by: Luketok | April 28, 2011 6:39 PM

This is so messed up.. I can't imagine the US without planned parenthood. They are a safe haven for teens who cannot talk to their parents because of how they, as parents, feel about their kids being sexually active. I know if it weren't for PP, my girlfriend and I (at the time) would not have been able to get condoms, or get on birth control. I live in a very religious county, and at the time, you could not even buy condoms until you were 18 (that has now changed, thank Zeus). Abstinence was the only sex education we were taught up until 11th grade when finally, our health class teachers finally taught us about proper safe sex. What an ignorant group of people to think that taking PP away from the US will help lower pregnancy and abortion rates. It will be a horrific day if this ever comes to fruition.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | April 28, 2011 6:40 PM

The target, Everett says, was "three to five abortions between the ages of 13 and 18 from every girl we could find."

Wow. That's seriously above and beyond the standard lying for Jesus.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 28, 2011 6:42 PM

... "three to five abortions between the ages of 13 and 18 from every girl we could find."

Do the math in the way most favorable to this claim: 3 abortions over 6 years, apiece.

In the US, about 40% of women undergo abortion over their reproductive lifetimes.

So, Everett's business plan was to bring each teenager to septuple that average, before reaching 19? With sales skills like that, she really should've signed up with Amway!

Posted by: Randomfactor | April 28, 2011 6:46 PM

If I were them I would immediately be suing for libel.

"Your honor, in order to mount an effective defense against the libel suit, we will need discovery against every Planned Parenthood location's patient files." In a Texas court.

No way will Planned Parenthood do anything but call them liars OUTSIDE a court. If that.

Posted by: Hercules Grytpype-Thynne | April 28, 2011 6:51 PM

FUTUE TE IPSUM, RESPUBLICANI!

(Spartacus sum).

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Apropos of Nada | April 28, 2011 6:57 PM

I would love to take a look at the tax returns to find out just how much money they are being paid to lie.

I suspect many radical right wing religious fundogelicals think like this. They are masters of projection -- (some of) the fundogelical ministers are finding ways to get rich off of their sheeples, they assume that the only reason anyone would work for Planned Parenthood would be to get rich. The idea of helping others seems to be anathema to some fundies.

Posted by: Qwerty | April 28, 2011 7:02 PM

I use to listen to D. James Kennedy on the radio.

In one week I heard a sermon promoting the war in Iraq as just; then, another sermon comparing taxes to theft. I wondered if this idiot expected the war to pay for itself.

I am sure everything they claim the former Planned Parenthood workers knew is either distorted or a downright lie.

Posted by: frustum.myopenid.com | April 28, 2011 7:02 PM

That's nothing! I usually take my wife in for an abortion every weekend, and twice on holidays. Coral Ridge Ministries is not trying hard enough.

Posted by: Eddie | April 28, 2011 7:04 PM

"Lying for Jesus isn't lying"
Right, and suing for libel is clearly persecution of the Christian minority by the liberal elitist media.
Oh, wait . . .

Posted by: raven | April 28, 2011 7:07 PM

If there is a limit to how wacko the xian's lies are, no one has found it. It may be infinite.

Here is one I found today about Easter. Did you know Easter is a satanic holiday involving serial human sacrifices? I didn't either.

Easter is Not the Worship of God in Spirit and in Truth

Human sacrifices are performed throughout the Easter holidays. These satanic ritual killings begin on "Good Friday" at 12:01 a.m. and continue through ...
libertytothecaptives.ne

The other stock in trade lies are that children are kidnapped by satanists and killed in their grisly rites.

They actually spent decades pushing the US FBI into investigating their well documented claims. The FBI never found a single real case. They still make those claims though, every day.

Really, with fundie xians, satanists are completely unnecessary. That religious ecology niche has long been taken by them.

Posted by: Hercules Grytpype-Thynne | April 28, 2011 7:11 PM

Damn. "Republicans" is plural.

FUTUITE VOS IPSOS, RESPUBLICANI!

Posted by: raven | April 28, 2011 7:12 PM

After DJ Kennedy went back home to hell, Coral Ridge was taken over by one of Billy Graham's kids.

Strangely enough, even though Graham the kid is a flaming lunatic, he apparently wasn't crazy enough for them. Some of them split off to form a craziness squared cult.

Just how crazy can you be before you can't function in our society anymore. If there is such a thing, they must be bumping up against the limit.

Posted by: cowalker | April 28, 2011 7:19 PM

So PP is REALLY all about Unplanned Parenthood? At least from the parent's point of view. Gosh, I guess we were just lucky--naturally infertile, maybe? Except that back in the seventies, within one and half months off contraception, we were blessed with a planned pregnancy. Somebody screwed up dispensing our protection. It actually gave protection.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | April 28, 2011 7:31 PM

Of course we passed out condoms but we never passed out high quality condoms; we always used seconds or defective condoms.

LOL wut?

Anyone that has fucking received birth control from Planned Parenthood knows it's good fucking shit. Hell, when I was in college, PP was handing out fucking Trojans.

But, then again, these fuckers at Coral Ridge Ministries prey on the stupid and ignorant, so my fucking point is probably moot.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | April 28, 2011 7:35 PM

SC, yes, we're Proud Partner of the Aspirations program. We give each scholarship recipient her own Fet-o-Matic, the self-aborter you can wear anywhere. Combining Dust Buster technology with the proven absorption of ShamWow, that's the Fet-o-Matic way.

Posted by: Joffan | April 28, 2011 7:40 PM

skepticalskeer @46:
"natural modesty" is definitely a phrase worth looking at a second time. Toddlers are happily comfortable with nudity - pubescent teenagers generally not. So what happened in between those ages?

Perhaps "cultural puritanism" is a more accurate description of what changes in that period. Breaking that down can take a long time - if it ever happens.

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawnC9zk5YsLujGLVkYjEIrOLsSBf9Qm81Ec | April 28, 2011 7:43 PM

I confess, all I want to do is abort gay babies in the name of Satan RAARGH!

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | April 28, 2011 7:47 PM

Just remember the Fet-o-Matic slogan, Audley:

Once you have a Fet-o-Matic, you'll never have another!™

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | April 28, 2011 7:52 PM

Josh,
You're fucking killing me!

(And here I was, half expecting at least one fucking forced-birth troll to show up and I get the fucking lols instead. :D)

Posted by: aynsavoy | April 28, 2011 8:14 PM

"Seconds" = factory seconds, as in a product with a cosmetic blemish (or sometimes a more serious defect).

I'm pretty sure that you can't buy factory second condoms. *pictures an outlet mall sex store*

Posted by: reproductionfails | April 28, 2011 8:23 PM

I've seen this before, and I have to echo the idea of 'children's natural modesty,' I couldn't keep my 4 yr old in clothes, he delighted in taking them off...everywhere.

If the Refuglicans were being consistent, they would LOVE PP, because only us godless sinners use birth control, so they could totally outnumber libruls who control their fertility, by out-breeding us and RULE THE WORLD. 'Cause, you know, no Refuglican ever uses birth control or gets an abortion from PP - they have nice expensive private doctors for that.

Oh, and since I didn't do it on the other thread:

FUCK REPUBLICANS

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Apropos of Nada | April 28, 2011 8:32 PM

reproductionfails:

Ah, but the Regressives know that if a woman is going to Planned Parenthood, she is not being properly controlled by a man or a church.

Posted by: great.american.satan | April 28, 2011 8:38 PM

I second or third or millionth the

FUCK YOU, REPUBLICANS!

Seriously, fuck those fucks all the way up and down their fucking fuckholes, all over the fucking planet with a fucking fucktoy the size of a fucking buick. Eat shit, mother fuckers, and FUCK YOU, REPUBLICANS.

Fuck you very much.

-

Posted by: llewelly | April 28, 2011 8:45 PM

Josh, Official SpokesFuck | April 28, 2011 6:40 PM:

But wait, there's more! With our new Frequent Flushers club, your membership card gets a punch with each abortion. Fill up your card, and the next one's on us!

Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Apropos of Nada | April 28, 2011 8:46 PM

FUCK YOU, REPUBLICANS¹⁰⁴⁴!

FUCK YOU, FUNDOGELICALS!

Stop trying to control bodies that are not your body!

Posted by: ckitching | April 28, 2011 8:50 PM

There is absolutely no point to suing these people. It won't stop the flow of lies and doing so would only add credibility to their lies among those likely to believe them. These people will simply choose to believe that the attempts to quash their lies means the organization has 'something to hide'.

It's stupid to address these things as if they were serious, unless your intention is to feed the fire for some other purpose (as some believe Obama did with the Birthers). Sarcasm and pointing out the obvious impossibilities should be the extent of the response.

PP is probably one of the most closely watched organizations in the world because of their support for contraception and abortion and the number of people who oppose them. If there was something going on in there, there would be more evidence than a known liar spinning ridiculous yarns.

Posted by: Josh, "Raquel Dommage," Porte-parole Gay Official | April 28, 2011 8:56 PM

How do they file all the filled-up cards God turns in?

We file them under SuperUser™

Posted by: webriggs | April 28, 2011 9:01 PM

Wow! Just when you think they can't get any lower, they do. What a fantastic load of crap that is. Hard to believe that anyone could even believe such nonsense (slaps head and remembers who we are talking about).

I used to sit on the board of directors of our local Planned Parenthood non-profit group, and one of my best friends was Executive Director for a good number of years. All efforts of the organization were bent toward providing accurate, unbiased information, and trying to help people prevent unwanted pregnancies, diseases, and the like. Nothing shady about it.

An interesting question comes up though. Where do you buy birth control pills that are made to "not work"? And where do you get condoms that are "seconds"? The religious mind is a strange thing.

Posted by: Ichthyic | April 28, 2011 9:04 PM

So where are the Christian moderates in the US defending PP or refuting this nonsense ? When I read stuff like that, I always think "here's a great chance for normal believers to stand up and make a stand for their religion, and to demonstrate that not every Christian is as crazy as those fundies". But all I ever hear is *Crickets*.

It's because moderates are also sociopaths.

It's not that they AGREE with the sentiments expressed by these nutbaggers; I rather doubt most do. If asked directly I'm sure they wouldn't. It's just that since they DON'T think like that (most of them), then they just ignore it.

IOW: someone who doesn't think just like themselves is ignored.

That's what being a moderate is all about in the US.

think about it.

I see Heddle doing this all the time. He speaks grandly of what "xians" do or do not, but it's rather obvious he only is speaking for himself in specific, and projecting that on to "xians" as a group.

Yes, Heddle considers himself a moderate.

Posted by: llewelly | April 28, 2011 9:09 PM

I can't say these claims surprise me. I've been hearing the claim that Planned Parenthood makes big $$ off of abortions since I was a child.

And there is worse; a hard core of forced-birthers aggressively push the lie that Planned Parenthood is secretly committing "black genocide" by aborting the pregnancies of black women as often as possible. Long-time regulars will recall a few dungeon inhabitants who promoted that myth.

That's what we're up against - no lie is too horrible, too offensive, or too far from reality. And the goal of these lies is to justify their actions against women, abortion providers, and providers of contraceptives and other sex-related health care.

The magnitude of their lies is not chosen merely for rhetorical effect; it is the foundation of how they justify and foment terrorism.

Posted by: CthulhuFhtaghn | April 28, 2011 9:18 PM

Posted by: Randomfactor | April 28, 2011 6:23 PM

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_Eile/Everett.html
Not that I'm vouching for accuracy.

""We now know that 92 percent of women who have abortions experience post-abortion syndrome. "

lolwut?

Posted by: reproductionfails | April 28, 2011 9:31 PM

Brother @ 69 (still getting used to this commenting system)

Oh, but often she is. She is sent on her own, and you are supposed to have someone provide you with a ride. My ex was not religious person, but an abusive husband who wondered why i did not want to have any more of his children. I said I was afraid of the pain, and he didn't object to the abortion, just that his schedule might have been altered.

"Get a friend to take you."

He didn't want that child any more than I did. He said so much to other family members, but would throw that experience on me, acting like a victim.

Liars lie, to keep up the appearance of being in charge, and will resort to revolting jokes to make it look that way.

Posted by: ckitching | April 28, 2011 9:37 PM

""We now know that 92 percent of women who have abortions experience post-abortion syndrome. "

lolwut?

Posted by: Psych-Oh | April 28, 2011 9:40 PM

Despite these deceitful freaks, today I received good news from Planned Parenthood Southeast:

Despite the numerous attempts to limit a woman’s access to reproductive health care options, we are pleased that the strategic work of Planned Parenthood Southeast and many dedicated coalition partners and volunteers this legislative session paid off with no anti-choice legislation passing!

Posted by: Robbie | April 28, 2011 9:45 PM

I the silly useless god thing they all seem to love exists, then these horrible evil lying bastards will be off to the cauldron. The fact these people have followers that believe and trust them is a sad commentary. Evil pricks.

Posted by: Hercules Grytpype-Thynne | April 28, 2011 10:01 PM

@47 Damn. "Republicans" is plural.

Yeah, that really is a shame, isn't it.

Yes, but not in all circumstances. For example, I would have no problem with the plural in the sentences "There are no Republicans" and "All the Republicans have boarded the latest transport to Alpha Centauri."

Posted by: Juno Walker | April 28, 2011 10:04 PM

Everett's own numbers don't add up. Coral Ridge quotes her as saying 40,000 abortions a year; in this article where she says that in her last month, they performed 500 abortions. Well, if you do the math (500 x 12 months) that only adds up to 6,000 abortions per year. That's a little less than 40,000 don't you think?

Juno

Posted by: Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom | April 28, 2011 10:08 PM

But we have to be the nice ones.

Fuck you, Accommodationists.

Posted by: MrFire | April 28, 2011 10:12 PM

"Thank fuck that's done."

*lightbulb*

Set up a stand right next to the hate brigade selling this as a T-shirt.

Business partners, yes?

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | April 28, 2011 10:26 PM

I've got nothing. All I know is that if these fuckers manage to do to PP what they've done to ACORN, I'm opening up a shuttling service up to Winnipeg for ND women in need.

:-/

Posted by: dearania | April 28, 2011 10:42 PM

The funny part is that they are most likely peppering their lie with truth. They say that they handed out low dose BC pills and lower quality condoms.

Low-dose birth control does exist. It is often prescribed by doctors, because they are highly effective in preventing pregnancy while reducing the risks associated with high doses of hormone Low dose BC is 99.99% effective against pregnancy when used correctly, but come with a lower risk of blood clots and liver disease than do medium and high dose birth control pills. Higher dose BC pills are used as hormone therapy for other conditions like extreme menstrual pain and anemia. I know because I have been on them and the doctor explained to me the difference, as did the Human Sexual behaviour prof.

Those low-dose birth control pills? Tri-cyclen, Yazmin and Yaz, in other words all the most popular brands on the market. If they were "guaranteed to cause pregnancy" like these two liars claim then the class action suit would already be in motion with lots and lots of media.

Furthermore: these so called Low quality condoms: they don't exist. There are condoms with less recognized brand names such as "lifestyle" condoms. They are usually given out for free and don't contain the frills and advertising of brand name condoms. For this reason they are considered lower quality or second rate. In truth: In the US every batch of condoms has to be tested before they can be sold. This means that every brand of condoms, whether a recognizable brand name or not, receives the same amount of testing.

By admitting that they handed out low dose bc pills and condoms, they are actually admitting that Planned Parenthood worked to prevent pregnancy. They should have planned their lies better.

The part that makes me sad? By teaching proper sex ed to students and adults, we could have avoided these lies having any effect since everyone would be able to recognize their falsehoods.

Posted by: Crudely Wrott , Drinking Solo Since Death's Back On The Wagon | April 28, 2011 10:47 PM

I like Ed's idea of a totally new blogger network, where tone and content remain completely uncensored.

I'd assign a fairly high probability to just that sort of thing happening eventually.

Face it, NatGeo is associated with and is used as reference by and is subscribed to by a very large number of people and organizations. These, it total, constitute a fair cross section of society. Knowing, as we do, that a certain portion of society at large is offended by a lot of things, especially words and facts and attitudes and concepts that upset their sky daddy, one outcome is certain. That would be the complaints of paying subscribers, advertisers, and patrons.

Politeness (he says, delicately) and political correctness will trump open honesty and expression any day in such an environment.

I'll bet about a double handful of SciBlings will end up on a remote island on some other ocean one day.

Really, it is all about the tone.

*hee hee heeeeeee*

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | April 28, 2011 11:04 PM

Jadehawk:

I'm opening up a shuttling service up to Winnipeg for ND women in need.

I'll help. What is truly vile is the fact that we even need a Jane Collective again.

Posted by: Parsley Victorious | April 28, 2011 11:21 PM

S/commanders/commenters.

Huzzah iPhone autocorrect.

Posted by: Phil65 | April 28, 2011 11:36 PM

Is Coral Ridge Ministries aware that lying is a sin?

Posted by: Menyambal: Making sambal (it isn't dragon magic). | April 28, 2011 11:41 PM

It's sort of like the old accusation that abortion providers are in it for the money. Coming from preachers who are collecting money as fast as they can. Except this is just nutzo.

Back when the Clintons were in the White House, a story went around that they had their Christmas tree decorated in the most obscene way possible. Horrified right-wingers hurried to reprint the story as often as possible. There was never an explanation, apology or retraction from any of the crazies. It looks like the lunatics are still around.

Posted by: Jadehawk, cascadeuse féministe | April 29, 2011 12:18 AM

I'll help. What is truly vile is the fact that we even need a Jane Collective again.

The long arc of history does not bend towards justice, because the bad guys get to use tactics we couldn't get away with and couldn't justify to ourselves, what with the whole conscience thing. It takes shitloads of effort and resources and ingenuity to just stay in place, and the US has not been doing so well even with that.

Posted by: F | April 29, 2011 12:42 AM

I ❤
Josh, Official SpokesFuck
#2

It isn't recreational, its about baby-farming for us atheists. Where the hell do you think half the babies we eat come from? (There's a Jewish market for Christian babies as well, don't forget.)

Posted by: Hekuni Cat, Champion of Oriana | April 29, 2011 1:12 AM

Caine:

What is truly vile is the fact that we even need a Jane Collective again.

QFFT

I'd help you and Jadehawk if I were in North Dakota. Instead, I'll see what good I can do here in Virginia.

Posted by: Caine, ghetto féministe | April 29, 2011 1:26 AM

Hekuni Cat:

Instead, I'll see what good I can do here in Virginia.

That's what matters, that people do what they can where they live. Even if your state has reputable clinics in varied locations and few restrictions, those clinics are always in need of money and volunteers.

Posted by: Azkyroth | April 29, 2011 1:39 AM

As an adult who deals with PTSD and depression on a daily basis as a result having been indoctrinated into fundamentalist Christianity as a child, I take exception to calling fundamentalists "wackos," "nutcases," or "crazies" and especially to armchair psychiatry that "diagnoses" any of them with this or that specific problem. My social circles include many other mentally ill people, almost all of whom are quite capable of seeing through the sort of rhetoric under discussion. It is not the exclusive province of the sane to be able to critique received ideas.

As an adult with multiple psychiatric diagnoses over the years myself, I don't think your complaint about attributing specific diagnoses is meritless (though it shouldn't preclude reasoned speculation, particularly with regards to personality disorders where the behavior in question is pretty distinctive, so long as it's not presented as a diagnosis), but "crazy" and the like have meant merely "bizarre, visibly irrational, intrusive, and possibly dangerous" in nature or behavior for rather longer than you've been alive, and I find this attempt at overbroadly policing others' word choices distracting, patronizing, and borderline narcissistic (non-clinically speaking). I'd hoped the habit of stretching "ablist" into a straightjacket for rhetoric and vocabulary wouldn't follow me back here... :(

Posted by: jafafahots | April 29, 2011 2:00 AM

Wait - I really don't get it. Why do they think PP workers want to perform abortions so badly that they'd sabotage contraception? Do they really think that anyone finds abortion to be a thrilling recreational activity? I just. . don't understand what they're thinking.

Josh, sadly you seem to be missing the obvious.
Planned Parenthood isn't getting teens pregnant on purpose just so that they can perform more abortions (though who doesn't love a good abortion? That's just a bonus!)

No. Clearly their purpose is to burn through their meager funding more quickly. Abortions are more expensive than condoms and BC pills, and as every non-profit organization does, they want to use their funding as inefficiently as possible, so that they can...

...ok well I haven't figured out the next part yet, but give me time.

Maybe it's a massive federal bailout they're aiming towards? I mean, the banks got them.

Hmmmm. I need to get out my crayons and diagram this.

Posted by: Ichthyic | April 29, 2011 2:15 AM

As an adult who deals with PTSD and depression on a daily basis as a result having been indoctrinated into fundamentalist Christianity as a child, I take exception to calling fundamentalists "wackos," "nutcases," or "crazies" and especially to armchair psychiatry that "diagnoses" any of them with this or that specific problem.

does having one form of illness qualify you to diagnose another?

aren't you doing just as much armchair theorizing by assuming that a lot of these people AREN'T suffering some form of underlying mental health issue?

Have you ever actually taken any courses in psychology? Would you recognize what various symptoms point to as potential pathologies?

well?

Posted by: jafafahots | April 29, 2011 2:23 AM

does having one form of illness qualify you to diagnose another?

Speaking as a person who is currently receiving disability benefits due to PTSD, perhaps I should respond...

*grope*

Nope. Not cancer.

(please note, I am not a licensed troll. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. Consult your pediatrician. Not to be taken internally. Dispose of properly. This statement has been approved by the ADA for use as an effective dentifrice. Does not contain caffeine. Part of a healthy breakfast.)

Posted by: Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism. | April 29, 2011 3:49 AM

For once though, just once, I would like to see a comment thread here that did not devolve into flip statements about how fundamentalist delusions are attributable to mental illness.

You who make those statements not only insult the mentally ill but conflate a fundamentalist's inability or refusal to parse discursive logic with a wide array of painful conditions that have no single or essential link to being capable of thinking for oneself.

I guess first I need to pull out my card as someone who has been treated multiple times for recurrent major depressive disorder and social anxiety disorder. OK, now that we've established that I'm talking about me too, I'll get onto the substance of your comment.

There is way more to fundamentalism than an inability or unwillingness to use logic, and saying that these people just don't "think for themselves" is over generalized. PZ for instance has documented someone with a PhD in biology from Harvard doing the creationist propaganda circuit. That guy wasn't someone who couldn't or didn't think for himself - you have to in order to get a degree like that. This was someone who undercut his own prowess in that regard due to a specific delusion.

That sort of irrational thought and behavior is very commonly associated with mental illness. While I'm not a psychologist by training it seems ludicrous to object to associating specific kinds of irrational behavior with mental illness, simply because you don't like being in the same category as them. Furthermore, it actually seems more compassionate to assume that many of these people are mentally ill, than that they are just defective people worthy of scorn.

As an adult who deals with PTSD and depression on a daily basis as a result having been indoctrinated into fundamentalist Christianity as a child, I take exception to calling fundamentalists "wackos," "nutcases," or "crazies" and especially to armchair psychiatry that "diagnoses" any of them with this or that specific problem. My social circles include many other mentally ill people, almost all of whom are quite capable of seeing through the sort of rhetoric under discussion. It is not the exclusive province of the sane to be able to critique received ideas.

If you have a legitimate point here, I think it would have to be that people shouldn't be derided for being mentally ill. On the other hand it seems like you have a double standard here. Feeling compelled to believe a 2000 year old book of fantasy is not less "wacko" than feeling you are completely worthless for no explicable reason (one of my delusions), its just different "wacko".

Its easy to deride fundamentalists, who are not only frustrating as hell in how irrational they are, but also cause problems by virtue of it. If society could move to a place, however, where we could view them as a group of people with a characteristic syndrome, perhaps with one or several underlying psychological causes, that might be a good thing. We might be able to convince them that they have a problem, and employ pragmatic methods to help them overcome it, just like we do for people recognized as mentally ill.

The problem is that we have to get society to a place where it recognizes that these ideas are not rational in the first place, and words like "crazy" are often used to indicate that. See Azkyroth for anything I would have had to say about that @127.

Posted by: shawna.burt | April 29, 2011 4:14 AM

Two things.

First, there's no such thing as "natural modesty", as modesty is something you have to teach children. Hell, I still prefer being naked to being clothed.

Secondly, I'm mentally ill (depression, anxiety, ADHD, PTSD) and I have no problem calling these nutjobs "crazy". (What? They make me look sane...)

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/O.jullMj0I2VvJaxMMVeNKSfOPf73voLSxJAe9PdlOWwi8Y-#258ec | April 29, 2011 4:26 AM

""As an adult who deals with PTSD and depression on a daily basis as a result having been indoctrinated into fundamentalist Christianity as a child,""

that is the reasoning I would make to explain why I think the that a large percent of the christian fanatics are mentally ill in truth and in fact. Most of them just think they are horribly guilty of sin and must be saved from hell and damnation. Unlike you they do not realize it and continue to fight themselves and "da debal"

I am sorry that you are so afflicted,I have friends also who suffer similarly but not all of them for the same reasons. Like the old song says There but for fortune go you or I .

uncle frogy

Posted by: britbitter | April 29, 2011 4:36 AM

Wait, on some patients they have to perform abortions every month? "Oh noes, I haven't had my April abortion! You there boy, what day is it today? April 30th? Then I'm not too late. Planned Parenthood did it all in one night!"

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/s0aEexkjo4xWNHbUu2tZTnS0v8ItXbJ6#21ed0 | April 29, 2011 4:45 AM

that is the reasoning I would make to explain why I think the that a large percent of the christian fanatics are mentally ill in truth and in fact. Most of them just think they are horribly guilty of sin and must be saved from hell and damnation. Unlike you they do not realize it and continue to fight themselves and "da debal"

Really, that's it? Somebody is mentally defective because they were taught a certain thing? I guess that is a convenient cop-out for you, "they disagree with me therefore they must be crazy."
Such a narrow view of people must be a wonderful thing as you are always right within that framework.

I could be reading you wrong, I admit.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/s0aEexkjo4xWNHbUu2tZTnS0v8ItXbJ6#21ed0 | April 29, 2011 4:48 AM

blockquote> the thing is, "normal" people without mental illness are still prone to cognitive bias, obedience to authority, pack violence, and all kinds of denial. There aren't enough fundies out there to account for it all, and blaming them doesn't let all the rest of us off the hook. We might be brawling, cussing atheists now, but most of us had to overcome a lot of mental training to get this far; and this community reinforces us, much as a religious community (or a cult) reinforces its members' beliefs. Human minds just aren't built to be rational automatically. /blockquote>

This ^^

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/s0aEexkjo4xWNHbUu2tZTnS0v8ItXbJ6#21ed0 | April 29, 2011 4:59 AM

"normal" people without mental illness are still prone to cognitive bias, obedience to authority, pack violence, and all kinds of denial.

Posted by: Michael X | April 29, 2011 5:05 AM

Let me revise,

"Hopefully, only gets so far."

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/s0aEexkjo4xWNHbUu2tZTnS0v8ItXbJ6#21ed0 | April 29, 2011 5:19 AM

Let me revise,

"Hopefully, only gets so far."

True that, hope only gets us so far. That is exactly why I choose science as the way to truth. We can hope all we want that our beliefs will be true, but in the end, it comes down to observable fact (which is itself mutable, science can admit error, dogmatic beliefs cannot) which means preponderance of evidence is the defining factor of our belief structure. That, and being willing to admit that we are wrong and realizing that being wrong about one thing does not make us stupid, crazy, wrong about everything,etc. The fact that we were wrong about one thing means only that we were incorrect about one small thing and that fact does not invalidate everything that we think. I'm being repetitive so I will shut up now.

Posted by: alex.the.pretty.good | April 29, 2011 6:15 AM

@ Margaret, #108

Thanks. After snorting my tea through my nose I had this vision of a 50x diluted solution of zygotes.

If that isn't effective homeopathic birth-control, I don't know what is.

Posted by: rainyday | April 29, 2011 6:46 AM

*Sigh* What does it take for people to realize that sex education actually reduces teen pregnancy and std's and that preaching abstinence increases it! It's not rocket science, just basic statistics. It's not that hard.
I wonder where they got these ex-employees from as witnesses. The story in itself sounds unbelievable, as in I don't believe it. Getting kids pregnant so they would get abortions? Why? To make money? I think you can make a lot more money with a lot less hassle by selling kids condoms. It all seems very complicated to make a buck. Like PZ said, at least get a bit of plausibility in your story. Or better yet, DON'T LIE!

Posted by: unbound | April 29, 2011 7:53 AM

Just playing for their own base who'll believe it hook, line and sinker.

As for Carol Everett, there is some rather interesting history here: http://eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_Eile/Everett.html

Seems that she never actually owned those clinics, and apparently failed in her attempt to sue to become part owner at some point. It also appears she was fired from a clinic due to being a fraud.

Posted by: Wobert | April 29, 2011 8:41 AM

I think I just had a Billy Ray Cyrus moment after reading that. No wonder sane people drink and smoke......to excess

Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort | April 29, 2011 8:53 AM

@rainyday:

We can't tell teenagers about safe sex or they might want to practice safe sex!

Wait... that might be a good thing. Let me get out my chalkboard:

Teenagers = Hormones = Sex = Pregnant
Teenagers = Hormones = Sex + Condoms = Pregnant Healthy

Yes... that seems about right

Posted by: Spamamander, internet amphibian | April 29, 2011 9:44 AM

/headdesk

Ow.

Actually that didn't hurt as much as the idea that anyone could believe the bullshit these people are peddling.

Oddly enough, when I volunteered at a PP booth during a music festival we handed out leaflets about safe sex, about life choices (including abstinence) and about sexuality in general including sexual orientation. We also had a big basket of brand-name condoms that we encouraged the teens to take a nice big handful of if they wanted to, along with individual sized packets of flavored lube. And now I find out I was likely making teenage girls pregnant!!11! Or not.

Even more oddly, 20+ years ago when I was pregnant as a teenager, the local PP clinic gave me a test, sat me and my then boyfriend down for the results, encouraged me to get help from my parents if I felt I could, and laid out all my options. Only after I made very clear that abortion was my own decision did they even give me the names of any providers (since that clinic didn't even perform abortions...). Sadly they also had to point out which ones were likely to have protesters hanging around, and I decided on a family doctor 80 miles away who they had just started working with, since nobody in my city did them at all. My "post-abortion syndrome" consisted of "it's over!" and "where's my mom?" (since my parents took me and supported me).

For some reason they don't believe stories like mine, but will gladly eat up these lying asschapeaus.

Oh, and just because I need another place to say it, FUCK YOU REPUBLICANS.

Posted by: kiki | April 29, 2011 9:57 AM

Oddly enough, you sort of can buy condom "seconds." We buy "past their sell-by date" condoms in bulk to put around body pack transmitters for the stage. Hollywood does the same to stick over microphones for filming around water.

In David Lynch's Dune, in the scene where Kyle McClachlan runs alongside the worm and sticks that wedge thingy into its side, you can see a translucent, squiggly texture beneath the plates of its carapace. And that's because the giant worm section that they built was full of (presumably out-of-date) rubber johnnies.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 29, 2011 10:03 AM

eriktrips @ # 122: ... PTSD and depression on a daily basis as a result having been indoctrinated into fundamentalist Christianity as a child...

Please spend some time prowling the Web and telling your story whenever you find some bozo decrying the fact that Richard Dawkins (and so many others) describe religious upbringings as "child abuse". Kthx!

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | April 29, 2011 10:09 AM

She is not stupid and is at least able to recognize blatant falsehoods like this. But then she says "No one really believes this stuff."

When I tell her "your party has this stuff in their frigging platform!", she just does that thing you do when cognitive dissonance becomes really uncomfortable but you love the person who has caused the discomfort. She changes the subject.

At risk of being a total asshole...

You mean like how you see her displaying severe defects in mental processing including Nth level bullshit and still insist she's not "stupid"?

How many evil things does your political party have to do before you realize it's real

How many stupid things does a loved one have to do before you realize they're ...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Not trying to be mean to your mother necessarily for no reason, I'm just saying that I think your relation to your mother is the same dissonance between her and her death fag bashing racist misogynist kleptocrat party.

Posted by: Hairhead | April 29, 2011 10:31 AM

Planned Parenthood announces new name and slogan. From this day forward, Planned Parenthood will be known as Al's Abortion Parlor. Our new slogan is, "You Fuck 'Em, We Suck 'Em, You Rape 'Em, We Scrape 'Em"

(I blame Josh. You hear me? Blame him, not me! I'm not like that, not at all. Yes, yes I am! Who was that? That was ME you fool! . . . )

Posted by: Mu | April 29, 2011 10:37 AM

She's now upset that she "sold abortions to twelve year olds". Because the only thing better than a twelve year old needing an abortion is a 12 year old mother.
I hope she at least filed a police report to go with that.

Posted by: Pyronius | April 29, 2011 10:43 AM

Aborted Fetus... its like veal to atheists, and almost indistinguishable from ravioli if prepared correctly.

Posted by: raven | April 29, 2011 10:53 AM

It's because they want to make sex unapproachable. For some reason, the Republican party is obsessed with sexual virtue.

They are also hypocrites.

The rate of teenage pregnancy and abortion is higher among fundie kids than the general population.

You can bet those wild eyed, slobbering Coral Ridge freaks have had a few abortions at least and when their kids get pregnant,...they get them abortions.

Posted by: Hairhead | April 29, 2011 11:21 AM

Okay, since we're going all-out here, and because my mind just can't stop ---

Q: What did the extremely pederastic German necrophile say as he dug into his latest abortion?

A: Au foetusehn.

(Ducks)

Posted by: Akira MacKenzie | April 29, 2011 11:33 AM

They believe abortion is a feminist (Satanist) "sacrament".

If I still had my old Limbaugh books, I could give a direct quotation.

Posted by: Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies | April 29, 2011 11:55 AM

SallyStrange:

Wow, this is even better than "Dan's mortuary, you stab 'em we slab 'em," which is how my dad answers the phone sometimes.

OM fucking G, that's a crazy coicidence. I've answered the fucking phone with, "Darkheart Family Morgue. You kill 'em, we chill 'em."

O.o

(My fucking phone freaked the fuck out and ate my fucking comment. Apologies if this appears twice.)

Posted by: Ing: PhD Trollologist | April 29, 2011 12:08 PM

I tried to look it up...but the Prolife sites have Google burried any contradicting information on the KKK and Eugenics and Hitler bullshit on PLanned Parenthood. Every single result is from "Pro-life" or "JESUS IS LORD" named sites

Posted by: Margaret | April 29, 2011 12:27 PM

This silly making money off abortions lie has been around a while. I remember reading a mystery where the bad guy and his brainless wife made their money by setting up as foster parents and taking in lots of teenage girls. The bad guy of course slept with the girls, but to make money off this he didn't use condoms but instead got all the girls pregnant frequently and took them to a doctor who split the profits of all the abortions with the bad guy. I don't know what alternate universe the author lives in where the government pays very generously for foster care and even more generously for abortions for those in foster care.

Posted by: pteryxx | April 29, 2011 12:36 PM

I'll just leave this here:

MISD school district (in Midland, TX) to adopt controversial "abstinence-plus" program including condoms

A pregnancy epidemic has taken over the Midland school district, and at the superintendent's recommendation, the board has now approved to adopt a sex education program directed towards seventh and eight graders to hopefully combat the problem.

With more than 150 girls pregnant since the start of the school year in August, school officials said it's definitely time for a change.

...

Dr. Warren wants to remind parents teaching abstinence in schools will not go away.

"Abstinence-based education is mandated by the state. That is a state law that we have to offer," he said. "We also have to understand that kids are making bad decisions now."

"Something does need to be done but by handing out condoms and showing them how to put it on, is that going to solve the problem?" Banschbach said.

Link to news story

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/aAgICF0fj._E93ZA7mxyvNV8z14NMAo-#c6972 | April 29, 2011 1:06 PM

For a second there I was a little skeptical, because the blog PZ linked to did not give a source.

However, a quick google did turn up the original.

http://www.coralridge.org/partnercentral/ministrynewsdetail.aspx?id=327

Everyone carry on.

Posted by: Lord Setar | April 29, 2011 5:03 PM

yahoomess #143:

Somebody is mentally defective because they were taught a certain thing?

Posted by: raven | April 29, 2011 7:31 PM

The line between religion and insanity is narrow, fuzzy, and subjective. There may not actually be much of one.

A 19 year old who carries a bomb into a crowd and kills 50 people in the middle east is a Jihadist martyr. In the US, he would be considered a lunatic.

The Coral Ridge fundies may not qualify as clinically insane by US standards. But they certainly qualify as crazy loons by a lot of common sense standards.

religionnews.com: (edited for length)

December 13, 2010

NEWS FEATURE
Line between divine inspiration and religious insanity is a narrow one
By Peggy Fletcher Stack

(RNS) A teenager says God and Jesus appeared to him in a grove and told him to start a new Christian church. Another person claims the Almighty talks to him through the radio.

A French girl gets messages from heaven to lead an army against the British, while a Utah woman thinks she is meant to have Jesus’ baby and 12 husbands.

Some of these figures were considered prophets and saints, while others were judged insane. The question is: How do you tell which is which?

Brian David Mitchell, convicted Friday (Dec. 10) of kidnapping and raping Elizabeth Smart,

The main difference between a prophet and a psychopath, says Ralph Hood, who teaches psychology of religion at the University of Tennessee in Chattanooga, is “whether or not (they) can get followers.”

Historic figures who started new religious movements—including Martin Luther (the Reformation), Joseph Smith (Mormonism), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), Ellen White (Seventh-day Adventism), Jim Jones (People’s Temple) and David Koresh (Branch Davidians)—were viewed by outsiders as delusional.

But followers, ranging from the millions to the hundreds, found each of them to be credible guides to divinity. keeps going

Posted by: Tigger_the_Wing | April 29, 2011 10:52 PM

unce frogy, I do not like the term 'defective' when referring to people who are suffering from mental illness.

It implies that there is a non-defective state of being human; that there are perfect people who can look down on the 'defective' ones who should be 'repaired' (or discarded if unrepairable).

Humans aren't machines. 'Normal' is an idea with a distribution which is too wide and fickle to apply to any individual person. We all, each and every one of us, have differences that may or may not fit into our social group's/society's/culture's currently popular idea of the 'normal' human.

Some people have differences which make it difficult or impossible to live freely in their culture without accomodations being made for them. Now, it may be that no human culture could accept them, or it may be that they would find a niche in a different one. When I was a child, practising homosexuals were regarded by the thoughtless public as criminally insane, heterosexuals who lived together without marrying were regarded as evil, domestic violence was acceptable and rape was the fault of the victim. With current progress (provided we can stop the reactionaries from fouling it up) I can hope that, by the time my grandchildren are adults one's sexuality will be wholly unremarkable, everything consensual will be accepted as normal and the very idea of victim blaming-and-shaming will be regarded with horror.

What is mental illness? Details vary from culture to culture. It is doubtful that we could even come to an agreement that, at its core, is the idea that it is a (treatable?) mental condition that makes someone unhappy, or unable to function fully to the extent they would like, or a danger to themselves or others.

The results of the thinking may be defective, or the functioning; but not the person. 'Defective' is a value judgement, and I believe that value judgements should be applied to behaviours, not people.

Posted by: Blot | April 30, 2011 4:05 PM

and I believe that value judgements should be applied to behaviours, not people.

That's all very fine and non-judgemental, and in the context of mental illness probably a sound way to view it. But in the more general case, if a person persistently engages in fucknutery, I will make the value judgement that they are a fucknut.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/kfv354lkm.JxzZc0cyRXo4qL4A--#0c188 | May 1, 2011 1:13 AM

Y'know, not to be all condescending and superior, but as a European, I quite often find myself agog at some of the insanely stupid shit that seems usual in American political and religious discourse.

I can understand the sentiment, and not to defend the indefensible but in the context of history this is just silly. We Americans are still trying to bring on our own Enlightenment, that's all.