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More articles by PZ Myers can be found on Freethoughtblogs at the new Pharyngula!
It's not the date, it's the rapture itself that's stupid
Category: Religion
Posted on: May 27, 2011 8:00 AM, by PZ Myers
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Comments
Posted by: Kel, The Privileged View From Nowhere
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May 27, 2011 8:14 AM
It's funny that there are people who are trying to distance themselves from the crazy of the rapture by saying it's bad theology for picking a date. Seriously?
Is that the "sophisticated theology" all those reviewers of The God Delusion were talking about? ;)
Posted by: StevoR
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May 27, 2011 8:15 AM
ROTFLMAO! Classic. Thanks. :-)
Posted by: KG
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May 27, 2011 8:18 AM
Not quite: the really sophisticated theologians still believe in all that crap, they just don't like to talk about it, and consider it rude if you do.
Posted by: Mr.Kosta
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May 27, 2011 8:18 AM
Problem, fundies?
Posted by: John Morales
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May 27, 2011 8:19 AM
"It's funny because it is true"
Posted by: Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort
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May 27, 2011 8:42 AM
It is funny because it's true. A perfect illustration of the point.
Posted by: rstage
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May 27, 2011 8:44 AM
The Rapture I guess passed us by
It's not hard to figure out why:
The christianist dopes
are selling false hope
and offering pie in the sky.
Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente
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May 27, 2011 8:45 AM
Brilliant.
It's funny in a sad way how supposedly reasonable people can go from "Of course world won't end this weekend." to "It's supposed to be a surprise, you idiot."
Posted by: timpanogos
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May 27, 2011 8:47 AM
Good point. Over at my blog a couple of people say guys like Myers wouldn't notice those who spoke out against Camping's claims because the preachers speak out in church.
But isn't it odd how an idea like a "rapture," which so far as I can tell is not described in scripture and is not a key part of any mainline Christian sect, gets so much traction among Christians?
So far as I can tell, all that stuff is extra-Biblical. Is there any Jesus-centered sect speaking out against this stuff? Mormons? Seventh-day Adventists?
Best,
Ed Darrell
Posted by: godhatesatheists
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May 27, 2011 8:55 AM
This is absolutely perfect... it's amazing how he narrows a date down and they all think he's insane.
Anyone think these other preachers might be jealous that Harold Camping reeled in over $100 million in donations?
-E
Posted by: bgsmith42
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May 27, 2011 8:57 AM
The vast majority of the modern Christian worldview is extra-Biblical. For example, almost everything Christians believe about Satan and Hell comes from either Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno.
Posted by: tlrmx.org
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May 27, 2011 9:00 AM
Ed, Practically none of mainstream Christianity believes in the Rapture, precisely because as you say it's not mentioned in the book unless you are looking for it and squint real hard (in which case you can also find anything else you look for)
Only a few million crazy Americans, and maybe hundreds of thousands elsewhere, believe this stuff.
For example, the Pope agrees Jesus is coming back, he thinks God will actually show up in person some day, but he doesn't believe people are going to fly up into the sky. He doesn't believe barcodes are a tools of satan, or that God will swat nuclear weapons out of the sky above Israel, or anything like that.
Posted by: Jason Dick
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May 27, 2011 9:06 AM
To play a little bit of devil's advocate here, picking a date provides one fundamental difference between all those other loons and Camping's claim: Camping's claim is falsifiable.
That, to me, is why it is bad theology. The moment you make your theology falsifiable, you are basically guaranteed to be proven wrong. All those other nutbar theologians are being good theologians when they are careful not to make statements that are falsifiable. Camping was adding just a little bit of insanity on top of that by actually taking his crazy beliefs seriously.
Posted by: myeckwaters
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May 27, 2011 9:11 AM
When the Pope sounds like the Voice of Reason in comparison, you know you're looking at some serious bat shit.
Posted by: Kevin Anthoney
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May 27, 2011 9:16 AM
Just out of interest, who is everybody? I've got Camping, Pope JPII, Falwell and Martin Luther but I'm struggling on the rest of 'em. I'm not well up on my loons.
Posted by: HarryW
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May 27, 2011 9:31 AM
The pope calls all cardinals to Rome for an emergency meeting. He opens with the following words: "I've got good news and bad news, the good news is: Jesus has come back! The bad news is... he's in Mecca...".
Posted by: cairne.morane
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May 27, 2011 9:36 AM
My version of HarryW's joke:
The pope calls all cardinals to Rome for an emergency meeting. He opens with the following words:
"I've got good news and bad news: Jesus has come
back!"
The cardinals reply:
"What's the good news?"
Posted by: Akira MacKenzie
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May 27, 2011 9:36 AM
Just like the Bible doesn't say jack shit about banning abortion or that libertarian capitalism is god's official socio-economic system.
But that doesn't stop a significant portion of Christards from believing otherwise.
Only a few million? Whew! For a moment I thought it was some really, really large number of people or something.
Of course the rapture is pure bullshit. But that stuff about four horseman of the apocalypse, seven-headed dragons, locusts with human faces, and the dead rising from the grave is soooo much more reasonable.
Methinks you're missing the general point.
Posted by: KG
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May 27, 2011 9:51 AM
OTOH, he does believe that he's infallible, and that when a man in a dress mumbles some words in a dead language over a cracker and some plonk, they magically but invisibly turn into the flesh and blood of a long-dead rabbi, which must then be consumed. Harold Camping doesn't believe these things, so an ordering in terms of battshittery is not easy.
Posted by: Hercules Grytpype-Thynne
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May 27, 2011 10:05 AM
Can't give you everybody, but second down on the right is Billy Graham, and the one below him is C.S. Lewis.
Posted by: Kevin Anthoney
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May 27, 2011 10:12 AM
Hercules Grytpype-Thynne @ #20:
Thanks! Send my regards to Moriarty!
Posted by: OneNobleKinsman
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May 27, 2011 10:18 AM
Although the word 'rapture' isn't specifically used, it may be the passage in Revelation 7:1-8...
Note, though, that the 144,000 come from the tribes of the children of Israel. Wonder if Camping falls in this category?
Posted by: StevoR
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May 27, 2011 10:23 AM
@15. Kevin Anthoney | May 27, 2011 9:16 AM :
I'm curious to know that too. I'm guessing here that the one saying "you can be my roommate [in heaven - obviously *his* heaven]" is the one who was caught having the naaasteee Ghey buttsexk - after preaching far nastier homophobic bigotry - John Haggee / Haggerty something like that? Am, I right?
Is Jimmy Bakker - Tammy's spouse - in there somewhere?
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmVT1LBhwmO9ej9LNg7a5e9d-AVJ8ezfmE
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May 27, 2011 10:25 AM
Anyone think these other preachers might be jealous that Harold Camping reeled in over $100 million in donations?
The pope owns his own country. I don't think he's likely to be jealous of Camping. Camping doesn't have custom Prada bedslippers and a big old jesuit hunk to help him slip them on like Ratzi does.
The picture above shows JPII, though - maybe he's jealous of Camping for being alive.
Posted by: Brownian
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May 27, 2011 10:26 AM
Yep. First rule of eschatology: don't give testable specifics.
Second rule of eschatology: don't accept personal, postdated cheques.
And they say we don't understand religion.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmVT1LBhwmO9ej9LNg7a5e9d-AVJ8ezfmE
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May 27, 2011 10:29 AM
The fat looking enema bag under JPII is Jerry Falwell. 2nd from top is Graham.
Posted by: Kevin Anthoney
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May 27, 2011 10:37 AM
StevoR @ #23
Are you thinking of Ted "Completely Heterosexual" Haggard? I don't think it's him.
Posted by: TenaciousHussar
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May 27, 2011 10:43 AM
Top: Not sure
Billy Graham
C.S. Lewis
Pope
Jerry Falwell
John Piper
James Dobson
Albert Mohler (president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)
Martin Luther
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler
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May 27, 2011 10:47 AM
StevoR @ # 23 - nope, none of those is John Hagee, nor Ted Haggard.
Posted by: unbound
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May 27, 2011 10:50 AM
Of course, there could be another explanation that they might not like. The rapture did indeed happen this past weekend. Turns out none of the xtians were considered worthy because of their lack of morals, so they were left behind as well...
Follows after the problem posed about xtians that truly believed the rapture was coming, but were actively using their credit cards the week prior. Clearly stealing since they had no intention of paying it back...
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler
|
May 27, 2011 10:52 AM
TenaciousHussar @ # 28 - James Dobson?
Posted by: Didaktylos
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May 27, 2011 10:57 AM
Another Pope & The Second Coming Joke:
Pope's Secretary: Jesus has returned - what are we going to do, Holy Father?
Pope: Tell everybody to look busy.
Posted by: Susan
|
May 27, 2011 10:58 AM
That sure is a batch of suspiciously exact numbers. You think he rounded up?Posted by: Friendly
|
May 27, 2011 11:04 AM
Megachurch pastor Charles Stanley.
Could be, but I don't think so.
amicably,
Friendly
Posted by: cicely (Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac)
|
May 27, 2011 11:06 AM
"Srsly, like any day now."
*snortle*
-
Posted by: Richard Smith
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May 27, 2011 11:07 AM
@OneNobleKinsman (#22):
Those Bible writers must have been paid by the word ("The Word"?), or had really lazy editors. I guess you lose the trance-like cadence, though, with something like, "twelve thousand each were sealed of the tribes of Judah, Reuben, Gad..."
Maybe the whole Bible is just one long shaggy dog story. Or a Feghoot that loses a lot in translation.
Posted by: peicurmudgeon
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May 27, 2011 11:11 AM
Seventh-day Adventists might criticize on date, but not the rapture itself. They were formed in the aftermath of The Great Disappointment, William Millers failed apocalyptic prediction in 1844. They've been waiting ever since.
It's one of the fascinating things about religions. They find it impossible to learn from past mistakes.
Posted by: azumahazuki
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May 27, 2011 11:19 AM
There is something of the Rapture in Acts, actually. I forget which book this is in, but Paul say "...Behold, I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed" etc etc, and specifically added a bit about flying up to "meet the Lord in the air."
So there *is* precedent, and an orthodox believer technically has to believe this.
Posted by: Foggg
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May 27, 2011 11:19 AM
Yeah. It's:
Charles Stanley
Billy Graham
C.S. Lewis
Pope John Paul
Jerry Falwell
John Piper
John MacArthur, proud YEC (not Dobson)
Al Mohler
Martin Luther
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/NjrT.PI3o5LCBR6d2DeLpCnJAtO_YZgJyw--#149b5
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May 27, 2011 11:22 AM
While Jesus said we wouldn't know the day nor the hour, he did give the exact century -- the First AD.
In Mark 11 and 13, Jesus tells his disciples that they will be alive when he returns. He specifically says that he will return within a generation.
How can intelligent and honest people ignore the plain words of Jesus and search instead for the time of the Second Coming in obscure Bible Codes? Well, all the intelligent and honest people left the building a long time ago.
Posted by: thebrainfromplanetarous
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May 27, 2011 11:23 AM
Yeah, ol' JP2 really doesn't belong there.
The RCC doesn't teach that all non-Catholics or even non-Christians are automatically Hell-bound.
And it certainly does not ascribe to Camping's (or anyone other) eschatology countdown.
Not that the RCC doesn't endorse all kinds of mind-melting nonsense - it does - just not this particular flavor.
Fun reading (Not really, but it does explain their position):
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
Also, one handy thing about the RCC is that it's gathered its assorted superstitions together for easy reference!
Viola:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
It's like the D&D Player's Handbook... except not a game. Still an interesting read, though.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
|
May 27, 2011 11:55 AM
They're right that Camping's an idiot. You just don't make falsifiable non-obvious claims in religion, or you're bound to end up looking stupid.
They all know that on some level (note that I'm not saying that it's at the front of their minds or any such thing), so why doesn't Camping?
Glen Davidson
Posted by: fusepark
|
May 27, 2011 12:01 PM
Let's not forget that it's not just the Christians. The Jews are waiting for their Messiah, the Muslims are waiting for the Madhi and Jesus, even the Buddhists anticipate another Buddha. Billions of people on this planet are taught that in some future time another leader will arrive to redeem them and show everybody else the error of their ways. Dangerous turning away from this world.
Posted by: Brownian
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May 27, 2011 12:15 PM
Odd, since the Messiah is here now.
Dr. Nussbaum was right.
Posted by: Kevin
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May 27, 2011 12:34 PM
@ #39 Foggg:
Congratulations! You win "Name That Loon"!!
Posted by: God
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May 27, 2011 12:52 PM
I explained the Rapture clearly in My word, in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Posted by: peicurmudgeon
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May 27, 2011 1:00 PM
@ thebrainfromplanetarous
from your link
To me, it sounds pretty indistinguishable from the rest.
Posted by: Jessie
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May 27, 2011 1:04 PM
Apologies if anyone has already posted this.
Doomsday
Posted by: God
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May 27, 2011 1:11 PM
Oh, nonsense, you pathetic fraud. That was Paul of Tarsus bullshitting his head off, not Me.
He was good at it, I grant you that, and convinced many monkeys that his ludicrous nonsense was not nonsense.
Posted by: ritchie.annand
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May 27, 2011 1:17 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 gives them the 'suck up into the air' verses for anyone other than those 144,000 of the Jewish tribes in Revelation 7:4.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
My personal hypothesis is that if this sucking up into the sky ever happens, it's more likely that a giant transformable ship in the form of a giant maid with a vacuum cleaner is responsible.
Either that, or it will be like in The Forgotten.
Posted by: Brownian
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May 27, 2011 1:24 PM
I briefly earned myself the nickname "Mr. Hoover" in university for describing the, er, benefits of vacuum cleaners to a guy still in the "you're not a man unless you're nailing a new chick every weekend" phase of young college male-itude. (He got better.)
If this is what the Rapture will entail, I'm all for it in so many ways.
Posted by: ragarth
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May 27, 2011 1:29 PM
@ #40 : I just read through mark 11 & 12 and saw nothing of the kind. I think you might be misremembering Matthew 24:32-35, the quotes just before the famous 32:36 quote where Jesus says that the rapture will happen in his lifetime and that people will spontaneously disappear.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/xAt7N6NwuPgbjy32uSJmPuHSOjUUtQ--#9c548
|
May 27, 2011 1:34 PM
There's a sucker born every minute.
Posted by: CJO
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May 27, 2011 1:44 PM
I just read through mark 11 & 12 and saw nothing of the kind.
It's in Mark 13, often caled "the Little Apocalypse":
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
--Mark 13:30
However, it's in the context of what looks like a retrojected "prediction" of the actual events of the first revolt, 66-70 CE. The author of Mark appears to have believed he was living through the Tribulation, and that the destruction of the Temple was the final harbinger of the parousia, Second Coming, Judgment Day, End of the Age, Rapture, whatever you want to call it.
Posted by: btthegeek
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May 27, 2011 1:47 PM
I said across her nose, not up it!
I have a problem with this whole "up" business. Up in the sky, up to heaven, etc. Do we know wich way in the universe would be "up"? Since the universe is expanding, once we discovered which way was "up" would anyone ever be able to get there?
Posted by: steverino63
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May 27, 2011 1:54 PM
For the next Rapture announcement, get your red heifer beef jerky!
This is a Photoshopping spoofing of Pat Robertson, not Harold Camping, but it IS rapture-related: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1367477392551&set=a.1166922058793.2026654.1400181733&type=1
Posted by: God
|
May 27, 2011 2:33 PM
Nothing sucks like Rapturolux!
Posted by: Glodson
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May 27, 2011 2:48 PM
btthegeek:
That has given me a strange mental image of a bunch of people floating out into space forming a Rapture Sphere around the Earth... Perhaps the Rapture really is about solving Global Warming, and God loves us but not the Fundies? [Not serious].
Posted by: csreid
|
May 27, 2011 2:53 PM
@yahoomess:
A bit off topic, but it's like the Sophisticated Theologians™ have an answer for everything.
I had this conversation with a pastor about the rapture. Eventually i got frustrated and gave up.
Posted by: stonekettlestation
|
May 27, 2011 3:00 PM
You're right, it's not the date it's the whole silly concept, and these idiots need to be called out on it loudly and often.
But it is far worse than that. My thoughts on the subject are here: Some Final Thoughts on the Rapture-that-wasn't.
Posted by: Joffan
|
May 27, 2011 4:18 PM
Rapture always makes me think of the Carousel event in the film Logan's Run.
Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/a/wldJeqgeh8HoOBnlcnLFaOhs80l5vFY-#b57f5
|
May 27, 2011 5:14 PM
peicurmudgeon @ 37:
The Sun keeps on burning,
while the Earth keeps on turning;
but the fleeced won't start learning,
so false prophets keep on earning.
YM Wild Jack
Posted by: christina.nicole.78
|
May 27, 2011 5:32 PM
@fusepark #43
Then there's John Frum. He's supposed to return on February 15, though the year of his return is unknown. The faithful gather every year on February 15 in the hopes that this year will be the year of his return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum
Posted by: btthegeek
|
May 27, 2011 5:42 PM
Not sure if this will work...
Posted by: JohnnieCanuck
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May 27, 2011 7:13 PM
You were right to be skeptical, bt.
Posted by: Ragutis
|
May 27, 2011 7:46 PM
Posted by: Joffan
|
May 27, 2011 8:05 PM
The Pope's line would be even better if attributed to the current encumbrance...
Posted by: Harbo
|
May 27, 2011 9:09 PM
Be Careful Kiddies
If you start taking the "silly bits" out of religion, before you know it, you will be at Pharygula!
Ficus Rules
Posted by: MarkNS
|
May 27, 2011 11:09 PM
I find it amusing when "mainstream" Christians dismiss the beliefs of Camping and his followers as crazy. This is pretty rich coming from people who believe in talking snakes, virgin birth, dudes rising from the dead and, of course, the invisible magic man in the sky who watches their every move. These "mainstream" Christian beliefs are no less ridiculous or crazy then those of Camping's ilk. They certainly have the same amount of evidence for their veracity...zero.
If Christians could ever bring themselves to critically examine their own indoctrinated beliefs they'd be ashamed of their gullibility. This will never happen, of course, because gullibility, AKA "faith", is inexplicably seen as a virtue among the religious.
Posted by: MarkNS
|
May 27, 2011 11:11 PM
Rule #1 of evangelizing: Never put a best before date on your nonsense.
Posted by: TimKO,,.,,
|
May 27, 2011 11:15 PM
The pastors who know goddamn well that the extra-biblical rapture mythology was pointedly discouraged at seminary still allude to it on Sunday because they know it increases their demographic. NO MORE TAX-FREE CHURCHES.
Posted by: etherraichu
|
May 28, 2011 12:58 AM
I loved this, because for one thing, it gave us another wonderful chance to show off why we know their book better than they do: Its to be able to determine stupid like these men express.
I know that most of the people quoting the bible (The part about only god knowing the end) were nonchristians, because its funny when literalists literally make things up, and since they already say atheists are evil, i have no issue getting perverse joy out of this.
Someoen actually asked me about this, for real. I informed them that there have been literally millions of doomsday prophecies. And that, if he was listening to me at that moment, then each one of them was wrong.
Posted by: StevePr
|
May 28, 2011 8:06 AM
#70 sorry you have the rule for the religious and conservatives;
Rule #1 lie outrageously as long as there is a tiny nugget of truth in the 400 page screed that you can point to and say look it's the truth. Ignore the rest it's just hyperbole.
It's true religions talk about the end of days ergo they haven't broken rule #1.
It's true the sun comes up everyday so Glen Beck isn't lying.
It's true that one day the world will end, whats a few billion years between friends, so ergo the rapture is true.
Posted by: StevePr
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May 28, 2011 8:08 AM
Sorry forgot to say I laughed for 5 mins when I saw that comic.
Posted by: StevoR
|
May 28, 2011 9:40 AM
@Kevin Anthoney | May 27, 2011 10:37 AM
Yes! That's the one. Thanks.
Oh & I have seen /heard the song :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmHC75FDqQ
too ages ago.
@Pierce R. Butler | May 27, 2011 10:47 AM
Thanks for those links and info there. Too many similar names of nasty but rather obscure whackjobs for me to keep them all straight.
@ Foggg | May 27, 2011 11:19 AM : Thanks for the ID - perhaps I should specify identifying - there.
Posted by: noheltyr
|
August 2, 2011 5:20 PM
I couldn't agree with this more. That's why I started a new comic book called Katrina Hates Dead S%&t which explores the ridiculousness of the Rapture.
I think you would enjoy it. www.katrinacomic.com