…and this is a 
Athletics are a fine part of the college tradition — students come to our universities, and some of them want to participate in sports, others like to watch, and others like to enjoy a non-academic social event. I think some support for our students' extracurricular interests is a good idea. What I detest, though, is the overpaid coaches and the tendency to set the small group of college athletes apart as something special, deserving of special consideration. Even at my small university, there is a constellation of special programs to serve the college athletes, and it gets rather annoying that this one group with no unique academic ability is granted privileges other groups do not receive.
UMM isn't too bad in this regard, but then we're small and everything is on a tight budget. Larger universities are more prone to excesses and waste and the promotion of a separate tier of students (I attended the University of Washington; the football team members were treated as small gods there). Now look at our neighbor to the south, though: Iowa State University hired a Baptist chaplain to minister to the football team. This was opposed by 130 of the faculty, who signed a petition asking that sectarian counseling not be given this privileged access to students, but the coach seemed to take it for granted that he could add another lackey to his retinue.
Much like we have offered our student-athletes access to drug and alcohol counselors, sports psychologists, nutritionists, hypnotists, physical therapists, learning specialists, chiropractors, physicians, etc., we are now going to also provide access to a spiritual advisor.
Well, the chaplain would fit right in with the hypnotists and chiropractors. But I read that litany and wonder why the football team gets such special treatment over other, apparently less important students.
But that's a different question. The issue here is whether it is appropriate to bring on a Baptist minister as a full-time chaplain to the team. It looks like there are two tiers of privilege: if you're on the football team, you are a big man on campus, but if you're a Protestant ball player, you are exalted beyond that. It's also not exactly clear what this person would do: pray for victory? Lead the team in prayers? Reassure everyone that god really loved Iowa State? It's a pretty damned useless sinecure.
Except we know one thing this chaplain would do: as a member of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, his job was to "use the powerful medium of athletics to impact the world for Jesus Christ". He was a professional proselytizer brought on to evangelize a narrow faith to the football team. The coach basically hired a local shaman to convert a subset of ISU students to his faith.
This chaplain has revealed all in a talk to the FCA titled "Overcoming Adversity". What adversity, you might ask? His. The entire half hour talk is about he was so oppressed because so many people, including that wicked atheist Hector Avalos, opposed granting him this ride on the gravy train.
Notice that one of his mechanisms to "overcome adversity" was to simply lie about his motivations and purpose in the job.
Kevin Lykins is no longer employed at ISU, but he set a precedent and there is now an empty slot for a chaplain to the football team, and there is push to fill it with yet another useless bozo. I hope ISU alumni will write in and protest — this is an entirely inappropriate attempt to couple an extracurricular activity to sectarian religious belief.
Oh, look. One of the local radio stations has a poll on the issue.
Are You in Favor of College Football Teams Having a Life Skills Assistant/Chaplain?
Yes 60.53 %
No 39.47 %
The video has been abruptly yanked — I wonder why? — but it has been captured and if you really, really want to watch it, you can download it here. I don't recommend it. It's incredibly boring, consisting of nothing but self-righteous evangelical babble, but if you really want to see what kind of tedious tool Kevin Lykins is, you can.
Comments
Posted by: bbgunn
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June 22, 2011 8:35 AM
Yes 21.30% No 78.70%. Reason takes a front seat.
Posted by: Brother Ogvorbis, Apropos of Nada
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June 22, 2011 8:36 AM
As of 8:35am, the poll is:
Yes
19.33 %
No
80.67 %
And I fully expect some Christianist site to get all upset about the evil non-Americans (liberals, atheists, people from actual other countries) are interfering with their right to interfere.
Posted by: Sastra
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June 22, 2011 8:38 AM
"Life Skills Assistant/Chaplain?" What a dishonest way of putting the situation. They're trying to conflate the Baptist faith with the teaching of "life skills" -- which would presumably include learning discipline and organization. Most people wouldn't be against that. So do you answer in the affirmative then? You're supposed to, of course.
It's like when they talk about "religion/morality." When skeptics object, they pretend they only mean either/or. No. What they really want to imply however is an equivalence.
Dishonest.
Posted by: houseofcards
|
June 22, 2011 8:42 AM
Yes
11.17 %
No
88.83 %
Posted by: PZ Myers
|
June 22, 2011 8:44 AM
That was quick.
Posted by: jbrock
|
June 22, 2011 8:45 AM
But ... but jock culture and robust Christianity go together like ... like buns and wieners! Of course sports teams deserve chaplains!
(Yeah, the linked site is a satire, but just barely. I've known a disturbing number of people who actually "thought" like that.)
BTW, the poll numbers have passed the 90% mark now. The reaction will be interesting to watch.
Posted by: Mr Ed
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June 22, 2011 8:47 AM
A perfect catch-22. Why is a chaplain needed, to over come opposition to having a chaplain.
Posted by: Rey Fox, Bird Caller Guy
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June 22, 2011 8:48 AM
I think God has made it abundantly clear over many years that he doesn't particularly care for Iowa State football.
Doing laundry and balancing a checkbook is what came to my mind.
Posted by: Zinc Avenger
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June 22, 2011 8:51 AM
So they're saying the only chance the team has of winning is through divine intervention?
The players must love that vote of confidence in their athletic prowess.
Posted by: tauarmy
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June 22, 2011 8:56 AM
Yes
6.72 %
No
93.28 %
Posted by: Dave A
|
June 22, 2011 9:02 AM
The scary stuff is batshit crazy Michele Bachmann trying to tell us that America was founded as a Christian nation. She believes this and if elected POTUS will try and put the 10 commandments in every school and government building in the country.
Posted by: Dave A
|
June 22, 2011 9:05 AM
yes 5% no 95%
Posted by: Moggie
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June 22, 2011 9:07 AM
I'd question the ability and commitment of any Christian chaplain to teaching "life skills" in general, given that their faith stands in opposition to some of the most important of all life skills: critical thinking, the ability to abandon cherished beliefs when the evidence is against you, and the courage to do the right thing in the face of threats of punishment. Though I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the ability to run with a ball.
Posted by: graham martin-royle
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June 22, 2011 9:12 AM
Yes down to just over 4%, job done.
Posted by: SC OM
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June 22, 2011 9:16 AM
This reminds me of a recent Frontline: "Football High." One school they feature is the Shiloh Christian Saints in Arkansas.
What really explains it, of course, is a huge infusion of cash. But the best part is when they go to play in a big game in Cowboys stadium. The narrator says "For Shiloh, it was a goal the team had long been working toward. But as their opponent took the field, the scale of the challenge they were facing became apparent...."
One look at the Euless Trinity players from Texas and you knew it was going to be a massacre, and it was.
It would be funny if kids weren't taking a physical beating in the name of Christian football glory. It's a very dangerous sport.
Posted by: MacTurk
|
June 22, 2011 9:18 AM
No is now at 96.4%. Us atheists love to interfere with the christian Dominionist plan to take over the universe HAHAHAHA!
And to bastardize an old feminist joke;
The university football team needs a chaplain like a fish needs a bicycle.
Posted by: Atractosteus
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June 22, 2011 9:23 AM
As an alumnus of Iowa State, things like this make my head hurt. I loved my time at ISU and Ames can be a great town, but there's no shortage of fundamentalist crazy at that university. The university goes out of its way to bend over for the Christian student groups on campus.
Posted by: MacTurk
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June 22, 2011 9:23 AM
Dog blast it, the video is unbelievably BORING. It is a long-winded nasal whine, which goes on for far too long
Posted by: Kamaka
|
June 22, 2011 9:40 AM
All preachin' is so fucking boring, I wonder why humanity puts up with it.
Posted by: David Marjanović
|
June 22, 2011 9:43 AM
as of several minutes ago. Total number of votes not shown, but must be tiny...
Posted by: brophyfootball
|
June 22, 2011 9:44 AM
GREAT question...."what purpose does a chaplain serve?" (in an athletic context). It all is being thrust upon athletes with the FCA lobby (has anyone ever followed the money on this organization?) - which falsely equates athleticism to righteousness.
The Ronnie Floyd situation opens another can of worms that I'm not sure anyone is ready to handle. A growing trend is for communities to follow Floyd's (copied from Johnnie Booty at Evangel Christian in the 90s) blueprint; use church networks to build a pseudo-village of 'believers' to advance their chosen cultural pursuits (really nothing to do with religion, but more like 'Branson-lite').
The football program grows as an extension of the church ministry (and are treated as one in the same) and religious indoctrination becomes intertwined with sports as young as 6 years old (youth leagues). I've participated in all aspects of these programs (there are a ton of them where I'm at) so this isn't coming from left field. This is a growing trend in the rather disingenuous rationale given to create football factories in the country (using the tax-exemption shelter of church to do it).
http://brophyfootball.blogspot.com/2011/04/frontline-on-football.html
Posted by: Sisu
|
June 22, 2011 9:48 AM
Yes
2.43 %
No
97.57 %
Well, that didn't take long at all!
Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes
|
June 22, 2011 9:57 AM
Iowa State should have invested in a new defensive coordinator.
Posted by: Ramases_1
|
June 22, 2011 10:06 AM
Seems like an unnecessary arms race to me.
This means other teams will have to get chaplains too, so they are not disadvantaged by the chaplains' prayers.
But if both teams playing each other have chaplains praying for victory, wouldn't they cancel each other out?
Posted by: christophe-thill.myopenid.com
|
June 22, 2011 10:12 AM
Well, they have drug and alcohol counselors, they say. So religion counselors sounds like a good idea. You know, to help people get rid of their addictions.
Posted by: Bron Lett
|
June 22, 2011 10:13 AM
As a representative sports player for my university, I feel i have to point out that not all of us are god bothering nut jobs. Some of us realize that hard work and dedication wins games. Not talking to imaginary friends.
Posted by: Molly, NYC
|
June 22, 2011 10:16 AM
Iowa State is a public university, no? Paid for by the good people of Iowa, including Iowa Lutherans, Iowa atheists, Iowa Jews, Iowa Catholics, and various other Iowa Not-a-Baptists?
I'm used to religionists being willfully oblivious to First Amendment restrictions about proselytizing on the public dime, but isn't this a little blatant?
Posted by: sumflower
|
June 22, 2011 10:23 AM
What I really don't understand about a sports team hiring a minister is what it is thatthey will actually do for the team. The nutritionist will help with diet, important. The physiotherapist will help with recovering from injuries, important. Even a phsycologist cold help with motivation, sort of important. but what can a minister do? Except maybe have say a little prayer before the game.
Posted by: Stuck_in_Cowtown
|
June 22, 2011 10:31 AM
Yes
1.65 %
No
98.35 %
We win now, right?
Posted by: Brownian
|
June 22, 2011 10:31 AM
Ah, football. That great American pastime that encourages athletes to free themselves of all moral responsibility; think of themselves as men better than all others while deferring to the ultimate authority, Coach; build esprit de corps by engaging in Othering; and eschew academic studies.
Yeah, fuck, what the hell: jam some Baptist bullshit in there too. Why not give 'em some muscle-building rage-enhancing drugs as well? Er...
Michele Bachmann: your public awaits.
Posted by: Beatrice, anormalement indécente
|
June 22, 2011 10:36 AM
Convince them that God is on their side in the coming battle, because they are the best and the winners and God loooves winners. And they are winners because of God, let's not forget that. Basically, a circle jerk with God thrown in.Posted by: RobotNinja
|
June 22, 2011 10:39 AM
I'm really curious what event transpired to make the coach think he need a full-time chaplain.
"Coach! It's not what you think!"
"That's it. I'm hiring a chaplain."
Posted by: Daz
|
June 22, 2011 10:44 AM
I'm quite interested in that list of 'specialists', apparently (unless I mistook the context) available only to sports players.
drug and alcohol counsellors
If these are needed, shouldn't they be available to all students? If the drugs in question are sports-related (ie steroid-abuse), surely that should fall within the purview of sports instructors, who've presumably had to study such things in order to become educators in the field, given the prevalence of the problem.
sports psychologists
Again, I'd have thought this kind of thing, if it's not just a euphemism for new-age feel-good bullshit, was part of the job of the instructor.
nutritionists
And again, if this is a specialist subject—in that sports players have certain dietary requirements that other students don't—surely it's a subject that a sports instructor should be trained in.
hypnotists
Huh?
physical therapists
How do they differ from physicians?
learning specialists
WTF is one of those, if not a teacher? And your average campus has at least a couple of those kicking about already, or so I'm given to understand.
chiropractors
See 'hypnotists'.
physicians
How do they differ from physical therapists, in the context of sport? And in the case of actual injuries, I'm fairly certain there's everything from a nurse, capable of dealing with light injuries, all the way up to surgeons, available at the local hospital. And again, if one is needed on campus, why should they not be available to all students?
Posted by: Timberwoof
|
June 22, 2011 10:47 AM
"Well, they have drug and alcohol counselors, they say. So religion counselors sounds like a good idea. You know, to help people get rid of their addictions."
The University of Tennessee Volunteers had a drug problem.
They got drug all up and down the field.
It's bad enough when a university feels obligated to build a new basketball stadium to replace the previous new basketball stadium because a coach promised a high-schooler that he'd get to play in a new stadium … after all, football and basketball bring money into the university (which your department can't have). But tying religion into the athletic elitism just adds to it.
Remember Promise Keepers? That was the CU Boulder football coach's ministry to Real Christian Men, who should be the head of the church in their home and keep their women barefoot and pregnant. At least he got in some hot water for having used the university's podium to promote the organization.
Posted by: Cepmk
|
June 22, 2011 10:51 AM
Now for down to 1.5%!
Posted by: Old Yippie
|
June 22, 2011 10:56 AM
When I was in Texas about 30 years ago, I attended a high school football game. Before the game we stood for the Star Spangled Banner, which annoyed me, since conservative pseudopatriotism is generally annoying (and Star Spangled Banner must be one of the crappest national anthems around). But then, we were treated to a prayer, led by the preacher of the local Baptist church. It was no generic sort of prayer, but about 5 minutes of fundamentalism -- he specifically mentioned McLean v. Arkansas, damning the decision and praising God that it did not apply to Texas.
I asked the man next to me if he saw a problem with that, and of course he didn't. I then asked if any nonfundamentalists ever gave the prayer. I said that I could probably get a Catholic priest or a rabbi. From his reaction, I might as well have suggested sacrificing a baby to Moloch.
He took his family and went to watch the game from somewhere else in the stadium.
Posted by: Brownian
|
June 22, 2011 10:58 AM
Physical therapists aren't physicians. It's a different professional designation and a specialty all its own. They're more rehabilitative.
Posted by: Christ Denier
|
June 22, 2011 10:59 AM
As of 10:55 this morning:
Are You in Favor of College Football Teams Having a Life Skills Assistant/Chaplain?
Yes = 1.51 %
No = 98.49%
Posted by: Xios the Fifth
|
June 22, 2011 11:01 AM
11:00 AM ET
Are You in Favor of College Football Teams Having a Life Skills Assistant/Chaplain?
Yes
1.39 %
No
98.61 %
Posted by: Steven Dunlap
|
June 22, 2011 11:03 AM
One minor point of constructive criticism: it would read a bit better this way:
"Well, the chaplain would fit right in with the nutritionists and chiropractors."
Hypnosis has proven effective in clinical settings in psychotherapy.
On the other hand, "nutritionists" are often confused with "dietitians." A "dietitian" has studied and passed tests on scientific information about human nutrition, metabolism, vitamin deficiencies, etc. The term "dietitian" IIRC is legally regulated in a similar manner to Doctor, Nurse, etc. Therefore, the woo slinging nutters who try to cure various ills or "enhance performance" and so forth with vitamin supplements have to call themselves "nutritionists." (Think Mathias Rath).
Posted by: Daz
|
June 22, 2011 11:05 AM
Brownian.
Thanks. I realise now that it's what we Brits call 'physiotherapy'. (And I feel kinda dumb for not doing so before.) Should still be available via any decent hospital though. There again, I'm used to thinking of treatment through the NHS; free at the point of use, so yeah, I can see why such might be needed for sports-injured students.
Posted by: JimNorth
|
June 22, 2011 11:05 AM
It is not illegal to hire a Life Skills Assistant-slash-Chaplain. Since football is the gateway drug to joining the army, and the army provides chaplains, then everything is hunky dorey.
*gag*
There's a reason why us Hawkeyes call the other university Iowa Straight.
Posted by: Timberwoof
|
June 22, 2011 11:07 AM
Daz asked, "physical therapists … How do they differ from physicians?"
Physicians focus on surgery and drugs to treat illness or injury. Physical therapists focus on body movement to aid recovery from injury or surgery. If you should ever tear a ligament, your surgeon would repair it, but your physical terrorist would bend and stretch you to make it heal correctly.
I see nothing wrong with having a physical therapist on the staff of a university athletic department. IMHO there should be enough of them to serve the needs of all the students, whether they're on the university's professional* football team or just play intramural sports.
Chiropractors, just maybe. Hypnotists, seers, priests, astrologers, wizards … nope!
* They bring money into the university.
Posted by: christophe-thill.myopenid.com
|
June 22, 2011 11:08 AM
A joke explained is a joke killed, so let me kill my own joke.
"Well, they have drug and alcohol counselors, they say. So religion counselors sounds like a good idea. You know, to help people get rid of their addictions." : the idea here is that religion is similar to drug and alcohol, and that special counselors are needed to help people get rid of that kind of addiction.
OK, Timberwoof, you just made a murderer out of me. Are you proud of yourself?
Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes
|
June 22, 2011 11:12 AM
Old Yippie, #36:
This is actually one of the things that I love about Texas. All I had to do to get the neighbors to leave me alone was to but an Obama sign in my front yard. The sign didn't last that long, but all forms of neighborly chatting ceased.
Posted by: Matt "Nora" Penfold
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June 22, 2011 11:14 AM
It depends on what definition oh physician you use. In the UK and some other Commonwealth countries a physician is a medical doctor who has not specialised in surgery. So in the UK it would not be a physician who fixes a torn ligament, but a surgeon. He or she will also be called Mr, or Mrs, Ms (as appropriate)
Posted by: phanastasio
|
June 22, 2011 11:28 AM
ISU PsyClones?
Posted by: Dr. Strabismus (WGP) of Utrecht
|
June 22, 2011 11:29 AM
Poll is totally pharyngulated! Good work, team!
Yes
1.26 %
No
98.74 %
Posted by: Daz
|
June 22, 2011 11:36 AM
According to my dentist (I was hardly in a position to ask for citations), this stems from French surgeons—who'd learned their job on the Napoleonic battlefields, and were therefore into more practical interventions—wanting to distance themselves from 'real' doctors, who were more into woo and ancient Greek texts than actually learning the causes of disease.
</useless, possibly apocryphal, trivia>
Posted by: iDodd
|
June 22, 2011 11:43 AM
PZ: I agree with you 99.9%. but I have to point out what I see as one factual inaccuracy and a lack of understanding about college athletics. Unlike you, I do not work/live in the academic world. But I am the parent of one college athlete (there in your state of Minnesota) and another high school athlete trying to gain a coveted spot on a college roster, as well as having a number of friends in the coaching world, so I know of what I speak.
You state, "What I detest, though, is the overpaid coaches" . The fact is most coaches are NOT overpaid. The majority of college level head coaches make no more than you do as an academic (my assumption being that your salary is comparable to my brother-in-law's, a professor at a similar institution). Assistant coaches usually make far less and for many it is not a primary job for supporting their family. At the bottom of the heap are many volunteer assistants who dedicate their time for the sheer enjoyment of the job. Yes, there are exceptions. The head coach at a big time D1 football program like ISU (unlike the coach at UM Morris) is getting paid handsomely. And why is that? This brings me to my other point.
Like it or not, college sports is a business. And, like many businesses, most college sports programs lose money. But there are a few, men's football and men's basketball being the prime two, that actually turn a profit for the institution. It's those profits that support the women's basketball, men's volleyball (my two personal interests), lacrosse, track & field, etc. And, like any successful business, you want a leader who can produce the results that will ensure that continued revenue stream (that is, a winning coach). That kind of talent doesn't come cheap. But in the overall financial scheme, it's a necessary capital investment. As long as a coach is generating more revenue than he's costing, he's not overpaid.
What does this side rant have to do with the inappropriateness of a sectarian spiritual advisor being on payroll? I would make the same argument for the chaplain. As his efforts clearly can't deliver results (either on the field or off in the personal lives of the players), then it is money that the institution should not be spending.
My real point, PZ, is that when you make blanket statements that are factually inaccurate and display a misunderstanding of the context, you detract from your own argument. In the interest of genuine skepticism/criticism, we must be careful not to leave out bait for our enemies.
Posted by: Silič O'Nopolitanopoulos, Färschdbischuf Beesknees aus Ulm und Klein Elguth, Elector Pharynguline.
|
June 22, 2011 11:43 AM
Why not? Let him add as many people as he likes.As long as he pays them himself out of his own salary.
Posted by: Felix
|
June 22, 2011 11:59 AM
Incidentally, their blog also contains an item about Miss Iowa. Her answer to the evolution question "I took evolution in college".
I don't know what this signifies.
Posted by: AKron
|
June 22, 2011 12:03 PM
Yes 1.17 % No 98.83 %
That was fun
Posted by: Kevin
|
June 22, 2011 12:04 PM
The poll has been thoroughly pharyngulated, sir.
Posted by: Pluto Animus
|
June 22, 2011 12:08 PM
Apparently, Christian football players need professional assistance in order to lick God's anus correctly.
Posted by: MidnightVoice
|
June 22, 2011 12:08 PM
Are You in Favor of College Football Teams Having a Life Skills Assistant/Chaplain?
Yes
1.15 %
No
98.85 %
Read more: http://www.kxno.com/pages/murphandandy.html#ixzz1Q1P3MIQh
Posted by: zntneo
|
June 22, 2011 12:10 PM
I am and ISU alum and when they change the name to "life skills Coach" I wondered hmm they have psychologists on hand why do they need a life skills coach and why is the life skills coach happened to be a chaplain? What in the hell does a chaplain know about life skills????!?
Posted by: https://openid.org/cujo359
|
June 22, 2011 12:10 PM
Unfortunately, large universities often count on a certain amount of revenue from athletics. TV contracts and the like bring in money, as do sports concessions. That explains some of the institutional differences, at least.The social ones, not so much.
Posted by: etherraichu
|
June 22, 2011 12:14 PM
If I was a baptist minister (and thus, a giant waste of space who accomplished nothing) I wouldnt question an overbudgeted idiot that wanted to pay me a lot to do nothing. If I had that profession, "Honor" would be an alien subject.
Posted by: greame
|
June 22, 2011 12:14 PM
I'm not perticularly a fan of Joe Rogan, (Or UFC in general) but I found his reply to a question about a UFC chaplain to be quite amusing.
Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmVT1LBhwmO9ej9LNg7a5e9d-AVJ8ezfmE
|
June 22, 2011 12:16 PM
Iowa State University hired a Baptist chaplain to minister to the football team.
They should have hired an imam. Or a high priest of Dagon. Baptists just lack the cachet they used to have.
Posted by: Samantha
|
June 22, 2011 12:52 PM
Perhaps someone can explain to me the distaste for chiropractors. As far as I knew, chiropractors are an interesting intersection between physical therapists, massage therapists and specialized physician. They have to do a program of similar length and intensity to a physical therapist but with more specific focus. They are used solely for issues dealing specifically with spinal issues that are centered around the muscle issues.
Maybe my view is skewed, but the one time I saw a chiropractor, he gave me a bit of a back massage, had me do some tests and then recommended a muscle-strengthening exercise routine and made some suggestions as to my posture. To me, that's a fairly solid professional medical appointment, but maybe he was out of the ordinary.
Posted by: natural cynic
|
June 22, 2011 1:01 PM
iDodd makes some cogent points, however the overall financial situation of athletics at D1 schools has not been that rosy - even in the case of the supposedly "revenue generating" sports: football, men's basketball and very infrequently women's basketball. In general, the greater the total costs of programs outstrip revenues. The accounting practices and sources of revenue are often muddled, so it's difficult to find out if any of the big sports actually could be considered profit-making. And certainly, even fewer of them would if there were some just compensation for the time commitment that athletes have to make in order to entertain students, alumni and fans.
And a little bit more about who is needed for ancillary positions in athletics: athletic trainers do far more than physical therapists in these venues. There is a significant overlap in their educational training, however ATs work far more with preparation for competition, injury prevention and rehab specifically of athletes while PTs work more with the general population and are more oriented towards rehabilitation. The education programs are somewhat different and these two professions usually work in a complimentary fashion but occasionally there are turf wars. And to further the confusion, the actual "athletic training" is actually a minor part of the ATs job, the actual training is done by strength & conditioning coaches.
Posted by: badtim
|
June 22, 2011 1:07 PM
actually Samantha, yeah he was. chiropractors have historically made a wide variety of completely baseless claims, as well as embracing core concepts like "subluxation" that have zero scientific backing. they are legally prohibited from making claims other than effectiveness for lower back pain, since nothing else has ever been shown to actually work, but they do so regardless.
And don't get me started about chiropractic "doctors" and their love of vitalism and various forms of woo, or the dangers inherent in the types of manipulation that they like to do.
Posted by: lorigb
|
June 22, 2011 1:21 PM
This pisses me off so much. I'm going to ISU now (went back after dropping out for about 8 years), and I've had classes canceled due to "low enrollment" and my tuition raised, I've taken classes in buildings that clearly need renovation or at the very least repairs...and now I find out that the football team gets to have a fucking chaplain? Who do I even talk to to bitch about this? The university president? The dean of students? The head of the football program? Maybe I'll just send emails to all of them.
Posted by: Sal Bro
|
June 22, 2011 1:28 PM
Yes
1%
No
99%
Posted by: Brownian
|
June 22, 2011 1:30 PM
Make sure you include those John Madden-style Xs and Os so the head of the football program can read it.
Posted by: Timberwoof
|
June 22, 2011 1:37 PM
I'm a little puzzled when people say that chiropractors emit woo. Maybe the ones I see are the exceptions.
I'm skinny enough that if I've got a vertebra out of alignment, it is obvious. The adjustments I get from chiropractors (and an osteopath I saw while I lived in Colorado) are effective for me. I can see and feel the difference.
I was once in Toronto for a hockey tournament. On the flight over I had got my shoulder in a knot, and a visit to a Canadian chiropractor fixed me right up. It was worth the forty bucks.
I had one chiropractor who was a little odd. The stuffed gorilla he made me hold while adjusting my back and his admonition against moving my head quickly gave me doubts. I stopped seeing him and another one. He said, "You're young and strong. You should be able to move your head like that without problems. Do these neck stretches before your games…"
Posted by: buggypig
|
June 22, 2011 1:43 PM
Hmmm.. life skills, I reckon I could teach that.
"Breathe in...
and out again...
and in...
and out...
and continue.
Oh, and don't forget to eat."
How much does it pay?
Posted by: mikerattlesnake
|
June 22, 2011 2:15 PM
@timberwoof (and others)
Chiropracters, in general, tend to be pretty ok at back manipulation for mild discomfort or pain. The problem is that the underlying theory of chiropractic is based on non-scientific concepts like subluxation and chi/vital energy. They may have made you feel better, but I bet I could have given you a decent back massage that would have had a similar effect. I also wouldn't have overstepped the bounds of my knowledge and ability to potentially injure you. Many chiros are not so kind.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott , Drinking Solo Since Death's Back On The Wagon
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June 22, 2011 2:20 PM
Yes = 0.95%
No = 95.05%
Whoa.
I'm sure the total number of votes (not provided) cannot be too large but I'm still impressed by the level of stomp. I'm also impressed to note that as of a moment ago the poll is still open.
Back when I was young and silly a bunch of us young yahoos at Rev Tab wanted to get up a softball team to compete in a local church league. It was amazing how much deep, earnest discussion this caused.
In the end, Brother Ezra (otherwise a fine fellow as far as I could judge) prevailed upon the church elders to nix the idea. It seems that the decision hinged on one thing:
Brother Ezra admitted to getting carried away with the "competitive spirit" when he was a high school athlete and it got so bad that he had to be
DELIVERED FROM SPORTS!!
That must have been a wild event!
That's right, friends and neighbors. Because Brother Ezra couldn't handle competition neither could we.
So we met up at local parks for pick-up games and had a great time.
Religion, impeding progress (and simple pleasure) for millennia.
Posted by: dsichel
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June 22, 2011 2:28 PM
Poll is closed at 0.92% yes, 99.08% no.
Posted by: Timberwoof
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June 22, 2011 2:49 PM
"Subluxation" is an overloaded term. It can mean "significant structural displacement" (which is the only kind I've ever been treated for) and the woo definition most often meant here, an ill-defined catch-all visceral thing.
Mike, I've had ineffective massages and effective adjustments. But then I'm only an anecdote. ::Shrug::
I did think it was funny that one of the teams in the local college hockey league was Palmer College of Chiropractic.
Christophe, I'm still not sure how I'm complicit in that murder; I got your joke about religion counselors. But please don't explain the situation to me—I don't want to be complicit in even more tragedies of humor.
Posted by: wheyghey
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June 22, 2011 3:03 PM
What do you have against chiropractors, PZ? I pulled my back and was in quite a bit of pain, went to the chiropractor, he stretched and massaged the muscle, and it felt much better. It cost $60. Did I get screwed or something? I've only been once and I didn't see anything about subluxation or weird claims.
Posted by: mikerattlesnake
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June 22, 2011 3:04 PM
@timberwoof
Do physical therapists use the term subluxation? If not, I think the difference between that and a "significant structural displacement" are meaningful and should be considered when seeking treatment. Chiros are not allowed to advertise their wooier beliefs usually, but when I was a teacher I definitely got pamphlets in my mailbox wherein the chiro claimed to treat asthma, ADD, etc. I wouldn't trust a chiro over a physical therapist because the underlying belief system is flawed, just as I would rather go to a secular hospital over a faith-based one.
Posted by: jschmeau
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June 22, 2011 3:27 PM
Posted by: Joffan
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June 22, 2011 3:48 PM
The inital figures could have been 23 Yes votes, 15 No votes. Hence the stomp.
Posted by: Tomas D.
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June 22, 2011 5:46 PM
As an incoming freshman to ISU, I'm happy that the chaplain is no longer on the payroll... but this is alarming that something like this could happen, even when the faculty opposes it. While I'm optimistic, I'm also prepared to speak out against garbage like this should it arise during my four years there.
Posted by: aeromondo
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June 22, 2011 5:46 PM
Aww dang it, I got here too late for the movie. Is that video mirrored somewhere?
Posted by: frizzlefrazzle
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June 22, 2011 6:29 PM
Well, being from the South originally, I'm all to aware of the ridiculousness of the FCA.
Chizik, the ISU coach at the time, got the idea (or rather, saw it's success) of having a chaplain when he was an assistant at Auburn.
If you google old Chet there, you'll see he the NCAA has made allegations about his involvement in paying off players in the past. And, I think there was a recent rumor, too - maybe involving this years recruiting class, but I can't recall the details. It sickens me how christianity is sold as some amazing virtue these coaches push in the south. Very few of these men seem to come close to being "true christians." Wait, let me take that back. Most are "true christians" in the sense that they are hypocrites. (See Tressell at OSU, which I guess isn't the south, but he sure cheated like he was in the south).
But, some (okay, I can think of UGA's Richt), do seem to actually live the life they preach. I might not agree with his fairy tale beliefs, but everything I've read about that guy has been impressive.
Posted by: frizzlefrazzle
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June 22, 2011 6:39 PM
Yeah, strange that the video has been pulled. I've still got it in one of my browsers, is there a way I can share it?
Posted by: truthspeaker
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June 22, 2011 8:29 PM
frizzlefrazzle, you might be able to find the video file in your browser's cache. Anyone out there knowledgeable about that sort of thing?
There's an extension for Firefox that lets you download embedded videos, but I think you have to restart Firefox to install it, which would risk losing the video.
Posted by: aeromondo
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June 22, 2011 8:36 PM
Frizzelfrazzle, I found this article about how to locate the file in the Firefox cache and save it. -- http://www.walkernews.net/2007/11/19/how-to-save-flash-video-from-firefox-cache-folder/
Don't know about other browsers.
Hope it helps. Let us know if you put it up somewhere.
Posted by: Kemist
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June 22, 2011 9:12 PM
Ask a neurologist or an orthopedist.
As long as you don't let them manipulate your neck, and that you have nothing seriously wrong with your spine (fused vertebra, tumors, fractures, spinal stenosis, ect), any sort of massage you like is fine.
But neck manipulations are infamous for two reasons :
- cervical sprain (relatively frequent, painful and can lead to serious complications such as cervical hernia and/or chronic pain)
- carotid arthery dissection followed with stroke (rare but deadly)
Those are pretty serious complications for a treatment that in essence gives no measurable benefits for most of the indications chiropractors employ them (migraine, asthma or hypothyroidism are frequently mentionned).
Another reason to avoid them is that a lot of them are antivax nutters.
Posted by: ironflange
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June 22, 2011 9:14 PM
Here's a much more reasonable video:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6356433/atheist-football-player
Snitched from Unreasonable Faith.
Posted by: Midnight Rambler
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June 22, 2011 9:35 PM
iDodd @50:
True, though I don't think PZ meant it to be a blanket statement the way you took it. Let's not kid ourselves - a lot of coaches are vastly overpaid. The University of Hawaii's football coach gets $1.1 million per year - the highest-paid state employee (the previous coach left early in his contract for a $2 million/year gig with SMU). The hypothetical* starting salary for an assistant professor is about $60,000; the max for a full professor (i.e. after ~30 years of being there) is about $150,000. This in a place where the median home price is still over $600,000 (if you want to go cheap, $300,000 will get you something in the company of methheads with a 1 1/2 hour commute).
* I say hypothetical because there has been a hiring freeze for the past two years, and faculty salaries cut by 6.5% across the board. Never heard anything about the coach's salary being cut.
Posted by: prozim
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June 22, 2011 10:00 PM
I'm a graduate student at Iowa State and consider Dr. Avalos a friend. He's been a real asset to Iowa State and in fighting for the separation of church and state at our federally funded university.
-Kevin Zimmerman
Posted by: Lorence
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June 22, 2011 11:23 PM
Poll appears to still be open - I just was able to vote:
Yes
1.23 %
No
98.77 %
Posted by: kathleen.cheney
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June 23, 2011 4:24 PM
I went to Iowa State University, and I while it had nothing to do with my major, I consider professor Avolos' class "Introduction to the Bible" to be the most useful, well-taught class I have ever taken. His rational, straight-forward method of teaching is refreshing, and his class helped me sort out my thoughts on religion to the point that I was well on my way from thinking of myself as agnostic to my current self-definition as an atheist. I hope he continues his work in encouraging everyone to think rationally about religion.
Posted by: P_Smith
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June 24, 2011 12:23 AM
Regarding the poll, either I can't find it, or that site has removed it like a spoilt child refusing to play when it's losing.
Timberwoof (#34): "Remember Promise Keepers? That was the CU Boulder football coach's ministry to Real Christian Men, who should be the head of the church in their home and keep their women barefoot and pregnant."
The idiot in question was Bill McCartney.
The promise keeper cult also (quietly) advocated and rationalized wife beating and excessive "discipline" (read: abuse and beating) for children.
.
Posted by: brophyfootball
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June 24, 2011 11:49 AM
the irony of Bill McCartney was that one of his players knocked up his daughter (out of wedlock)