Thus Spake Zuska

After my last few posts, and the tons of comments from thegoodman and Queef, I’ve started thinking seriously about my approach to this blog. Maybe I am just a little too angry for no good reasons, too often just calling childish names and not solving discrimination. Perhaps I can do better. Perhaps I should start with a new profile photo, something more friendly and welcoming to all. My proposed new profile photo can be found after the jump. Let me know what you think.

Thanks to www.cornify.com for super-sparkly picture editing!

Comments

#1 joy
May 10, 2010

I dunno, Zuska, I think you still look Too Srs.

You know you can catch more flies with honey, right?

If I were you, I’d draw an absurd smiley face on your photo too. In fact, replace your entire face with a manically cornified rictus.

“Turn that … neutral expression … upside down! The world’s a prettier place (for men) when you smile!”

/barf.
#2 becca
May 11, 2010

Dude, is that hello kitty on a unicorn?
#3 John McKay
May 11, 2010

What, no puppies?
#4 jc
May 11, 2010

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

They fart skittles ya know.
#5 Brandon
May 11, 2010

You gotta replace the sunglasses with those star-shaped dazzle glasses.
#6 Ace
May 11, 2010

The unicorn on the left is missing sparkles…
#7 puck
May 11, 2010

Oh, no! You forgot the gumdrops too!

Also, you are SO not smiling enough in that photo. Remember, d00ds *need* women to be smiling! I’d draw in a big grin – in lovely lipstick red, of course – if I were you. Just to be safe. Wouldn’t want to put off Teh Menz.
#8 Cara
May 11, 2010

Beautiful! Now you’re all P2K compliant.

Dude. It IS, indeed, Hello Kitty on a unicorn. If only the Care Bears were here.
#9 NancyNew
May 11, 2010

Dang! I nearly had a post-menopausal incident of stress-incontenance in my appreciation of your new profile pic! It may be a touch too subtle, still though. Could the original photo be tinted a lovely shade of rose-pink? Or lavender, perhaps.
#10 Scicurious
May 11, 2010

That actually hurt my EYES. But I am still grinning in glee.
#11 Queef
May 11, 2010

It’s not like there’s a middle-ground or anything. Just a false dichotomy.
#12 SKM
May 11, 2010

Funny thing about that middle ground–the goal-posts on it keep shifting.

(“funny thing about that document–it was never notarized!” /peanuts)
#13 SciWo
May 11, 2010

Oh LOLz. But it definitely needs a motherfucking carebears tea party.
#14 Comrade Svilova
May 11, 2010

@ SKM

And we know who keeps sneaking around and moving those goal posts.
#15 Queef
May 11, 2010

I’d say the goal post is fairly clear: not acting like an asshole purely to be an asshole, nor acting like everything is a-okay and happy-go-lucky (because it isn’t).
#16 Tlazolteotl
May 11, 2010

Oh HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

And there for a moment I was worried you were actually serious.

*snort*
#17 ambivalent academic
May 11, 2010

Well Queef, if that’s the goal then this blog is scoring touch downs like they’re candy. (Yay – sports reference!)

SciWo – Agreed. Needs more CareBears.
#18 Comrade PhysioProf
May 11, 2010

MOAR UNICORNZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#19 SKM
May 11, 2010

But Franks, why did you put a picture of a man on your new profile image…oh–whoopsie!

/Michael Hawkins

Also: yes, more Carebears. And Strawberry Shortcake.
#20 SargassoSea
May 11, 2010

Troll-ify?

(The plastic, gender-neutral kind with the wildly-colored pointy-dos?)

‘Cuz they totally rock sparkles!
#21 thebewilderness
May 11, 2010

SMILE! It can’t be that bad!!!!
#22 LazyAstronomer
May 11, 2010

Honestly curious question for Zuska and all her fans. When dudes like Queef show up, do ya’ll at least partly enjoy ganging up on him and making fun of him? Or do you feel like he distracts and derails the conversation? If the latter, why don’t you either censor him, or if that is too much, just ignore his comments and go on with your discussion?
#23 Cara
May 11, 2010

LazyAstronomer, why are YOU here? Just curious.
#24 Comrade Svilova
May 11, 2010

Speaking only for myself, it mostly annoys me to deal with people like Queef. But at the same time, dealing with his nonsense online is great practice for when I am forced to deal with the same kind of nonsense in real life.
#25 SKM
May 11, 2010

@LazyAstronomer: asked and answered.

Once reasonable responses fail (thread after thread after thread), at least there is an opportunity to display ways to deal with bad-faith trolls who are determined not to learn.

In short: ignoring trolls is sometimes the best decision, and sometimes not. It depends on the blog, and on the situation.
#26 Silver Fox
May 11, 2010

Hahaha! Love it.
#27 LazyAstronomer
May 11, 2010

@Cara: I’m here to learn something new.

@SKM: Thanks for the answer. That makes sense if the goal of the blog is to educate the lurkers.
#28 SKM
May 11, 2010

A blog needn’t have only one goal, or have the same goal for each and every thread.
#29 Comrade PhysioProf
May 11, 2010

Laughing uproariously at ridiculous bags of fuck like “Queef” and that “Hawkdouche” high-school debate-team WORLD CHAMPEEN is fucking hilarious.
#30 sealander
May 11, 2010

I’ve got a lovely picture of a unicorn puking rainbows that would look just perfect with that ensemble
#31 Girlpostdoc
May 11, 2010

Fuck, thank you. I laughed out loud for 5 minutes.
#32 Cara
May 12, 2010

I’ve got a lovely picture of a unicorn puking rainbows that would look just perfect with that ensemble

Farting Skittles and puking rainbows. Now THAT’S a cornucopia of delight.

Sure gives “Taste the Rainbow” a new meaning…
#33 flim flam
May 12, 2010

The unicorn on the left looks a little aggressive, like it could suddenly drive that big old horn right into a dudely dudes’ peen. is that the message you really want to send?. For the love of womanity..what about teh menz!!!!. Your lack of smiling is hurting their fee fees.
#34 Rev Matt
May 12, 2010

Needz moar blingie! Oh wait, this isn’t Wonkette.

Brilliant pic, that.
#35 Thegoodman
May 12, 2010

I get it, you are angry at the world and enjoy being pissed off. I just happen to belong to the school of thought that thinks being angry about everything isn’t constructive or healthy.
#36 jc
May 12, 2010

*hands Cara enough skittles to cover all the bingo card squares she’s working today*
#37 joy
May 12, 2010

“I get it, you are angry at the world and enjoy being pissed off. I just happen to belong to the school of thought that thinks being angry about everything isn’t constructive or healthy.”

TRANSLATION — I’m a dood. Also, I haven’t actually read or grasped any of the other points you’ve written.

And, to avoid confusion, it’s not because I am, or was, poor. It’s because I have male privilege mutually exclusive of my class. Now, stop being so angry and make me a sandwich. I’m becoming a feminist.

PS, Zuska … we told you this would happen if you didn’t smile enough.
#38 ambivalent academic
May 12, 2010

Thegoodman – how nice for you. It sounds lovely over there in your universe, where nothing that legitimately deserves an angry response ever happens. To ~~anyone~~ ~~people who matter~~ men.

Has it occurred to you that there may be more than one equally (or even more) valid “school of thought” on the matter of anger and its usefulness?
#39 ambivalent academic
May 12, 2010

Stupid html tags. “anyone” and “people who matter” should be sporting strikethroughs.
#40 skeptifem
May 12, 2010

Anger is a legitimate response to unfair situations. There isn’t anything wrong with it when it is over something like social justice.
#41 bananacat
May 12, 2010

Dude, is that hello kitty on a unicorn?

No, it’s actually two hello kitties on two different unicorns!
#42 Zuska
May 12, 2010

Fixed those html tags for you, Ambivalent Academic. “Strike” works but I guess “del” does not.
#43 Thegoodman
May 12, 2010

“Has it occurred to you that there may be more than one equally (or even more) valid “school of thought” on the matter of anger and its usefulness?”

Sure, I just don’t subscribe to it. I suppose there is nothing wrong with being angry so as long as it doesn’t lead to violence. The problem is that it does often lead to violence and teaching people to get pissed off about everything isn’t constructive.

I’ve never told anyone how they should do anything. I’ve only said how I would do them or how I think they should be done. Clearly I am not the majority here so just continue on as you were and keep supporting each other in your self destructive behavior of bashing anyone who opposes your views.

Everything I have said has nothing to do with males or whites or feminists for that matter. I just think that tempers and many peoples’ inability to control them are a big reason we have many of the societal problems we have.

White men are certainly just as guilty of this as everyone else is.
#44 skeptifem
May 12, 2010

Thegoodman- You seem to have absolutely no clue how women and people of color got things like voting rights and legal protections. HINT: it involved a shitload of really angry people, who acted on their own behalf specifically because they did *not* decide to bury their anger and accept the world as is.

Anger isn’t self destructive, it is a legitimate response to injustice. When you are subject to injustice on a daily basis it is downright normal to feel angry about it. The only real way I could cease being angry at being kicked around all the time is if I had no respect for myself, and I am not going to be doing that any time soon. Trying to trick myself into accepting the treatment I get is way more self destructive than speaking up and feeling outrage *on my own behalf* about it. You don’t have to deal with this shit anyway, so it is kind of hilarious to have you tell me what value my anger has in a situation that is completely alien to you. What feelings are constructive when I am on my period or giving birth? Care to chime in about that, or do you realize how foolish it is to share your opinions about things you don’t experience?
#45 SKM
May 12, 2010

Audre Lorde on The Uses of Anger.

Also, it’s very easy for someone to council pacifism about things that aren’t a threat to hir.
#46 Thegoodman
May 12, 2010

Skeptifem
You are absolutely correct that anger/hostility/violence were necessary to get where we are today. When there were laws, rules, and guidelines that promoted racism and sexism; anger was completely justified. Those laws have all been removed, as they should have been. Sexism and racism is no longer a legal issue (as in, there are no laws protecting the behavior) and it is now a personal issue. Again, this is just my opinion, I am not telling you anything about yourself or how you should feel (so please stop saying I am doing this); I think that when issues like sexism and racism are on a personal level, the persons who are being persecuted need to do their best to dispel the negative stereotypes that people (white dudes) have about that person.

Since white men are the target of so much of the hostility that feminists have, it seems logical that you would want to educate white men and make them empathetic to your cause. Angry protests may have made the most noise during the civil rights movement, but I think that sit-ins and peaceful marches had the most lasting effect.
#47 Comrade Svilova
May 12, 2010

TheGoodMan re: the uses of anger:
Sure, I just don’t subscribe to it.

…”because I’m a d00d, smarter than you people, better, more sensible, and I’m not telling anyone what to do but I AM determined to share my wise wisdom with you hysterical ignorant feminists. I know better. Because I’m a d00d.”

I’ve just been dealing with a professor who has been telling me all year — in class, via e-mail, and in year-end reviews — that it’s a problem when a woman is “so intellectual.” And you know what? It really makes me angry every time he tells me that. GoodD00d, I reserve the right to be pissed off by minor injustices (like the situation I’ve described above) as well as humanitarian crises. There’s a lot of terrible stuff that goes on in the world, and it makes me angry, and I want to change the world so it will no longer make me so angry.
#48 Comrade Svilova
May 12, 2010

Dude, do you know the difference between “de jure” and “de facto” discrimination? We have plenty of institutionalized de facto discrimination today. It’s nice for you that you don’t see it. But I run into it every freaking day and it really harshes my mellow. Regarding my story above, I can’t complain about the teacher’s rudeness because he has more power than I do, and my grade would be in jeopardy if I complained about his behavior. He has tenure. Yes, the LAW doesn’t say that women shouldn’t be smart, but my professor feels that the rules of the university and society’s laws protect his ability to discriminate against smart women.

And do you think sit-ins made white Southerners happy and sympathetic to the civil rights cause?

Your arguments are all laughable because you have done none of the research you would need to do to have an informed opinion/view on any of this material.
#49 Zuska
May 12, 2010

GoodD00d, you’ve been amusing and instructive, but now you are just getting tiresome and irritating. Like a burr in the shoe. I swear to sweet Jesus in heaven, if you do not stop mansplaining how anger is not helpful nor becoming in the ladeez, and don’t just STFU for awhile and go do some reading and learning, I am going to ban your ass from this blog. Really. One more comment about how anger is not helpful is all it will take.
#50 veganrampage
May 12, 2010

@the g00d-d00d-

Did ya read SKM’s link?

Yep, that’s what I thought.
#51 ambivalent academic
May 12, 2010

I think that when issues like sexism and racism are on a personal level, the persons who are being persecuted need to do their best to dispel the negative stereotypes that people (white dudes) have about that person.

Please re-read this sentence that you wrote. You are explicitly placing the burden of responsibility not only to enact some change but of having been the source of offense in the first place, on the shoulders of the persons who are the victims of the problem. The logic fails.

Sexism is not a problem of women failing to conform to men’s expectations. It is a problem of men failing to expect that all other human beings (women included) will act like human beings. The problem is not that women keep living up to the stereotype of hysterical bags of emotion, nor that they fail to live up to the stereotype of sugar and spice and everything nice (see how this is a lose-lose for us?); the problem is that men will not accept that women are multi-dimensional human beings with a right to self-determination (whatever it may look like for each of them, JUST. LIKE. MEN.

Women cannot change the way men think. I cannot change the way you think. YOU are the only one responsible for what goes on in your head, and to hold anyone else responsible for your biases is patently absurd.
#52 SKM
May 12, 2010

Sexism and racism is no longer a legal issue (as in, there are no laws protecting the behavior) and it is now a personal issue. Again, this is just my opinion,

If it’s “just your opinion”, why do you state it as fact? Something is not true just because it’s your opinion that it is true.

It’s not true, by the way; and even if it were, there is such a thing as de facto discrimination, as Comrade S. has pointed out.
#53 TruePatriot
May 12, 2010

Since anger is such a popular emotion around here, let me vent as well. I am angry that this country used to be about hard work and personal responsibility, yet has turned into a bunch of entitled whiners. No one wants to work hard for success anymore. No, success has to be handed over to you, on a silver platter. Why? Because two centuries ago people of your skin color were slaves. Or because one century ago people of your gender weren’t allowed to vote.

Every single group – women, blacks, Mexicans, homosexuals, poor people – think they deserve special treatment. Here’s a reminder – we have laws that protect people now – there are no more slaves! Stop whining and work hard, and America will reward you. If all you can do is cry over what happened 200 years ago and blame your shortcomings on racism and sexism, then get out of my country and leave us the fuck alone.

The poster Joy is the perfect example. She has said multiple times she is on welfare. How about you get off your lazy ass and work for a change, instead of spending your days commenting about how bad white men are. Maybe you can actually be a productive member of this country, instead of living off my hard earned money that Obama is giving away to his favored groups.
#54 joy
May 12, 2010

“The poster Joy is the perfect example. She has said multiple times she is on welfare. How about you get off your lazy ass and work for a change, instead of spending your days commenting about how bad white men are.”

Ha ha. HAHAHAHA.

Sure, dude.

Right after I get over all these institutionalized, de facto problems like racism, sexism, and classism that prohibit qualified people such as myself from GETTING a job (seriously, try getting work when you’re an unapologetically feminist and queer multi-ethnic woman from the “wrong side of the country” …

Right after I “get over” this Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder from being repeatedly raped by my family members, who spouted shit remarkably similar to yours when they weren’t molesting their daughters, nieces, and female toddler cousins …

and right after I find a job that will not only hire me, but also pay me equivalently to my colleagues who could actually afford college (other posters here have written about how it is, in fact, impossible to “put oneself through” college these days, so I won’t waste my time) AND won’t pay me 75 cents on the dollar …

I would LOVE to get a job.

Meanwhile, trust me. I have it SO EASY. You wouldn’t believe how EASY my life is. What with all the rapings and sexual harassment, the constant prejudice against me and people like me, and my inability to do pretty much anything I would like to do. Including “keep an apartment.”

It’s just because I’m lazy. Reeally fucking lazy. Like all the brown people who do the blue-collar work for people like you. WHO, NOT SO IRONICALLY, ARE THE ACTUAL WHINERS IN THIS SCENARIO.

Come shoot me to death if you want me “out of your country”, dude. I’d rather die than live in the same world with you.
#55 joy
May 12, 2010

(Oh, I forgot to close a parentheses up there, and also the antecedent to the capslocked sentence is “people like you”. Not “brown people.”)

Let me just reiterate — IT IS PEOPLE LIKE -YOU- WHO ARE “WHINING.”

Not just WHINING, but COMING TO SOMEONE ELSE’S BLOG TO WHINE ABOUT HOW WE (people who are actively working for change in between writing about how we are working for change) ARE WHINING.

Seriously, dude, just come kill me if you want me gone so bad. I would loooove it.
#56 Warren
May 12, 2010

Thegoodman:

“Since white men are the target of so much of the hostility that feminists have…”

…because they’re so often the source of the problems that feminists have.

It’s not very hard to understand.
#57 Carlie
May 12, 2010

I just have to say, although I rarely comment, I love this blog so much. That is all.
#58 joy
May 12, 2010

Oh, I forgot to add as well –

Writing isn’t a JOB. Neither is making music. None of the smaller, under-the-table jobs that I pick up to make ends meet (risking any kind of abuse, from harassment to abrupt job termination to going unpaid, because of my off-the-books status) are jobs either. Not a single one.

I just sit around on my ass all day, eating bonbons with my illegal immigrant friends, who, having stolen jobs from Good Hardworking Americans, now earn tons of money with full job security, suffer from zero risk of deportation, and receive thousands upon thousands of welfare dollars to boot. We mostly just watch Telemundo soaps, because they refuse to learn English, simply out of laziness and obstinance.

At nights we meet up with our Black friends, each of whom has 10 children from different fathers so that she can extort millions of dollars in child support from each “baby-daddy” in addition to the more-than-generous food allotment granted her from the government. They trade us some of their unlimited food stamps for crack rocks and booze, which we all smoke and drink before sitting around in skimpy clothes waiting to lure innocent white men into sex — which none of them want, but all of them give, because the lure of female flesh is so innately hardwired into them that they can’t pass up any specimen of it and are willing to give us oodles of cash for the privilege of submitting to our every desires.

When we’ve satiated our near-endless desire for white male cock, sometimes we also hang out with our terrorist friends, who are all Arab men who spend their time thinking up ways to disregard American laws and dreaming up plans for pipe-bombing Times Square while driving their taxi cabs and working at fruit stands/bodegas for far, far more than minimum wage and facing zero discrimination or prejudice.

One of my friends is also in a wheelchair, but she’s faking her disability so that she doesn’t lose her uber-privileged position as Recipient of Social Security Income. She NEVER gets stared at funny or has problems doing such simple things as riding the subway. Nope.

We’re out to get you, White Men! And we’re coming to your town next. To steal your jobs, drug your children, and corrupt your wives. For sure.

Keep livin’ the delusion, man. It must be really comfortable.
#59 Comrade Svilova
May 12, 2010

That would be hilarious, Joy, if it weren’t so painfully accurate. No wonder your writing garners praise.

Mr. Patriot, next time someone treats me differently because I’m a woman, next time I’m discriminated against because I’m a woman, next time I face violence or sexual harassment because I’m a woman, I’ll be sure to print out your comment and show it to the sexist person(s) or institution(s) I encounter. Once the people who are discriminating against me purely on the basis of my gender realize that sexism is about a hundred years out of date, I’m sure they’ll stop immediately. Thanks, dude.
#60 CanHandleTruth
May 12, 2010

@ TruePatriot

No slavery anymore (legally) is equivalent to ‘it’s all good’?

A woman’s right to vote (legally) is equivalent to ‘everything’s fine now’?

Are you fucking serious? Certainly, (if you try REAL hard) you can recognize that this viewpoint comes from a priviledged perspective.

Also your ‘centuries’ dating technique for each of these events is appalling- not that facts seem to be troubling to you. It all happened in a time so far, far away- totally not pertainent now.
#61 Zuska
May 12, 2010

…then get out of my country and leave us the fuck alone.

Your country? TruePatriot, do tell, which Native American tribe are you a member of?
#62 CanHandleTruth
May 12, 2010

in the same vein:

…then get out of my country and leave us the fuck alone.

Define ‘us’ in this context.
#63 thebewilderness
May 12, 2010

Anger is the appropriate response to injustice.
It galvanizes us to action.

Somebody said that, and if they didn’t, they should have.
#64 True Patriot
May 12, 2010

I am a native born American, but I am not a member of any Indian tribe. I read my history – I went to public school at a time when they still taught proper American history, not today’s multicultural sensitive PC bullshit. I know that some injustices were committed against Indians. But they did not build the US of A. It was built by patriots mostly from Europe, my ancestors. Hence, it is my country. (And by the way, the Indians have been compensated many times over with much more land than they ever controlled before we came.) We are a generous and good people. Over the years we have welcomed people from all over the world to come here and work hard and have their own American dream. Now you people are on the verge of ruining it. You have convinced black people that it’s all the whitey’s fault – nothing to do with their own lack of hard work and promiscuity. You have convinced Mexicans that they can ignore our laws at will and our government will coddle them. You have convinced some women (though thankfully, not all) that if they choose to stay at home or voluntarily work for less money, again somehow the white man’s fault.

Do you see the theme here? The one group that has created the most wealth known in the history of mankind, you blame for all your problems and shortcomings.

Joy, you think you are writing something brilliantly sarcastic, yet everything you say is actually true. There are plenty of singers and writers who make very good money, male and female, black white and brown. If you can’t make it, you’re not good enough. Face it! I can accept the fact I’ll never be an astronaut or the President, why can’t you accept your own faults and not have to blame somebody for them? Yes, Mexicans are stealing our jobs, and of course they are getting thousands of dollars of benefits through their anchor babies. Yes if black women weren’t so promiscuous then they wouldn’t be in poverty. Yes if Arabs learned to be civilized and not blow up other humans, they wouldn’t be racially profiled. Your so-called sarcasm is 100% true.

You people are ruining this country. You complain about sexism now – just wait till America completes its transformation to third-world hellhole Mexican clone, and see how you feel about sexism and racism then. You will wish the white men were put in charge again.
#65 Thegoodman
May 12, 2010

Let it be known that I think TruePatriot is a moron and is possibly trolling, and he is certainly not me in disguise and I disagree with just about everything he said.

Zuska, I swear to sweet jesus that I am not trolling. I have only made a few comments on the recent posts and have been trying to take it all in. If you wish to ban me from your corner of the internet, I certainly cannot stop you but I also promise not to be disruptive.

@51 Ambivalent
“You are explicitly placing the burden of responsibility not only to enact some change but of having been the source of offense in the first place, on the shoulders of the persons who are the victims of the problem. The logic fails.”
Again, I you have completely missed my point. It is never the victims fault that bad things happen to them. I agree, that is completely illogical. If a person is angry about an incident of discrimination against them and they wish to vent that anger via a tirade on their blog, so be it. If it makes that person feel better about the anger, good for them.

What I am trying to say is, if you are a champion of the feminist cause, it is logical that you would want to gain support for said cause. I have mistaken this blog as a champion of feminism, where it is actually just a place to vent. Both are fine, its my fault for misunderstanding.
#66 thebewilderness
May 12, 2010

To me, the saddest thing about remarks like true patriot is that he actually thinks that there was a time ever in this country that his fantasy was a reality.
There was not. Exploitation is the American way, and always has been.
I despair of the educational system of this country. It has been and continues to be a myth factory for silly peeps who call themselves patriots.
History! Try it. You could learn something.
#67 joy
May 13, 2010

LOLOLOLOLOL

(this from someone who only uses chatspeak in irony)

I’m not “good enough”, huh? That’s … really funny. Evidently you’ve never heard of indie music, wherein most people don’t make a lot of money (yeah, not everyone can be Thom Yorke or Kurt Cobain … examples of musicians I like, but who are CURIOUSLY both white men! CURIOUS, that, on so many levels) but a lot of people are really good. We’re just not white enough, or men enough, or in the right place at the right time enough.

Also, I knew you would take me seriously, and was prepared for that. Prepared to sit back and watch everyone else laugh at you, that is.
#68 Miss Andrist
May 13, 2010

@Thegoodman

Okay, I think I get it. You’re NOT one of the men we’re talking about. Sure, that’s fine and I believe you. Now instead of arguing with us that we need to stop targeting ALL MEN…

Realize that we are not talking about ALL MEN. We are talking about THOSE men. If you are not – or don’t think you are, or want to be – one of THOSE MEN, you can achieve this by STOPPING those men.

You have WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE. Because you are a white male. You can help us – all of us – by using your white male privilege to HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WHITE MALES. Because you are a white male, other white males will listen to you when they will not listen to us. You can do like Julien Real does, challenge other white males in ways we can’t.

Instead, you’re here criticizing us, lecturing us, condemning us, as if what you perceive us as doing wrong is actually worse than all the wrongs that you perceive us suffering. The fact that you choose to expend your energy here, not there, is pretty fucking damning. Whose side are you REALLY on?

-Miss Andrist
Lover of Men
#69 Zuska
May 13, 2010

True Patriot – or TP, as I prefer to think of him – is a serious troll. Let’s not play with him. He’s shifting his IP addresses but I’ve done what I can to ban him.

Goodd00d: I have mistaken this blog as a champion of feminism, where it is actually just a place to vent.

Can you wrap your mind around the notion that a blog can work as a champion of feminism via, at least in part, its function as a place to vent righteous indignation and anger? If you could grasp that one concept you’d be on you way. If that doesn’t make any sense to you – well, maybe your privilege is blocking your view.
#70 Miss Andrist
May 13, 2010

@Thegoodman

Do you see ThePatriot?

Do you see ANY PROBLEM with his shameless, unquenchable hatred of Vagina-Americans – especially brown vags?

Do you see MORE problem with his hatred of women, especially brown women, than you do with us? Do you realize that his sentiments form the overwhelming majority of your demographic? Do you realize that it’s because members of your demographic are as tolerant of that sentiment as you are, right here, right now?

Whose side are you on? His or ours? Because men like him make it that situation. You have the opportunity to support sexism and racism with silent tolerance and continued criticism, which by the way will serve to trivialize what he just did to all of us here. It will serve to diminish all of our rejection of men doing that to us, it will marginalize all of us here who condemn men who do that to us. Or you can take this opportunity to be a human being. Condemn HIM for DOING SEXISM AND RACISM TO US RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.

Simple shit, dude. You’ll show us with your choice, I’m sure.

-Miss Andrist
Lover of Men
#71 Comrade Svilova
May 13, 2010

I have mistaken this blog as a champion of feminism, where it is actually just a place to vent. Both are fine, its my fault for misunderstanding.

Why do you feel that you get to define what is venting and what is advocating? If it’s based on the fact that you feel that you’re sitting on the fence, waiting for a good reason to believe that women are people too, then please consider the implications of that choice. If you’re talking about how you believe other people will respond to our discourse, then please consider that many of us spend every day interacting with people like TP; we’re well aware that many men are going to respond very negatively to the suggestion that women and PoC should have truly equal rights.

Please speak for yourself and in your own name. You don’t need to represent a group or to be the spokesman for OTHER white men. We have encountered every argument that you’ve presented before … and will do so again. Telling us not to be angry because you believe it will hurt our cause is not news to anyone here. And hearing it again is not going to convince us to play nice.

Do YOU care about our anger, and if so, why? Is it because anger in a woman affects or upsets YOU? Again, you don’t need to represent a class or a group here, so as was pointed out above, the conversation doesn’t have to be ABOUT you. When we say “white men” we could be referring to those OTHER white men, who you claim to disagree with (you’re not a sexist, you say) but whose words you are repeating to us and whose points of view you are claiming to represent.

Speak for yourself, not for others. Please don’t distance yourself from your words by saying that you don’t agree with sexists, but you’re concerned that our mode of discourse makes it hard for people to engage with feminist thought. Believe me, we know, and have been told this hundreds of times before. If you’re going to speak about our anger (something you may want to drop, but still…) don’t speak for someone else sotto voce. If our anger bothers you personally (and remember that it’s directed at a group of people who display certain behaviors, not any and all white men) please ask yourself why you are so invested in telling us that we must suppress our anger. You’re not our therapist, nor to you get to be a strategist for the Feminist International Army (ah, that there were such a thing!). Until you’ve demonstrated that you have a certain understanding of and allegiance to the tenets of feminism (that women are people!) feminists are not interested in your strategy tips. Given this, why are you so invested in telling us to quell our anger? If it’s just unsolicited and unwanted advice, keep in mind that offering such unsolicited advice to women is a small but persistent way that a certain class of men show their disrespect for women as mature, autonomous, thinking beings. Do you really want to associate yourself with that group?

Regarding Ginger’s point about Zen Buddhism: I have been thinking the same thing, but also noting to myself that (in my understanding) the first step in dealing with anger in Zen Buddhism is to get in touch with one’s anger, to identify it and understand it. That’s what feminism has done for me. It has allowed me to understand why I was always so frustrated and angry. Now I feel like I actually know how to start working on improving conditions and transforming my anger into action. Hurrah!
#72 SargassoSea
May 13, 2010

”The problem [anger] is that it does often lead to violence and teaching people to get pissed off about everything isn’t constructive.” – Thegoodman

Holy shit! I had no idea that my pissy attitutde about DV, unequal wages, coerced pregnancy/abortion, rape, war, sex traffiking, etc. was CAUSING all of this icky stuff to happen!

I’d better quit my unpaid internet anger “teaching” and switch back to unpaid real-life shit swallowing (but with a smile on my face!) so as not to CAUSE any possible violence – especially of the variety that thegoodman apparently finds so abhorrent because it is so obviously RAMPANT, i.e. Feminist Violence!

I mean, seriously, just from today’s front page of the NYT:

“Fifth Deadly Attack on a School Haunts China”; Chinese Feminist Anger to Blame!

“Afghans’ Mistrust of Officials Poses Threat to Military Successes”; American Feminist Officials’ Violence Cited!

“In a Job Market Realignment, Some Workers No Longer Fit”; Economic Violence Fomented by Feminists!

“BP Says Leak May Be Closer To a Solution”; Feminist Environmental Ravaging League (FERAL*) Vows Revenge!

In other words, Thegoodman, you don’t need to tell US about violence. We KNOW where it comes from and it ain’t Feminists.

*not to be confused with the Feminist who goes by the handle feral
#73 Yvonne
May 13, 2010

Let it be known that I think TruePatriot is a moron and is possibly trolling, and he is certainly not me in disguise and I disagree with just about everything he said.

Then don’t spend your time trying to convince us. Put your ass on the line and tell that to TP.
#74 Cara
May 13, 2010

If you wish to ban me from your corner of the internet, I certainly cannot stop you but I also promise not to be disruptive.

Blathering on about how we’ve misunderstood you is disruptive.

Go read. Come back when you understand WHY we kept telling you to go read.
#75 Cara
May 13, 2010

I must address this one remark of Toilet Paper’s, and only this one:

Do you see the theme here? The one group that has created the most wealth known in the history of mankind, you blame for all your problems and shortcomings.

Oh, right. And y’all did it all by yourselves. No slave labor by women or POC involved.

Fuck off, troll. Gawd. It’s like the pot-bellied Cheeto crunchers who talk about “survival of the fittest”. As if YOU have fuck-all to do with any kind of human achievement.

Whew. Done. That is all. Everyone carry on, nothing to see here.
#76 Cara
May 13, 2010

(Whoops. Sorry, Zuska, I didn’t see the “do not feed” sign. That really IS all I wanted to say, not even really to him but just because).
#77 Zuska
May 13, 2010

S’okay, Cara. That’s actually a good point to respond to, just for illustrative purposes.
#78 Thegoodman
May 14, 2010

@Comrade Svilova
“Do YOU care about our anger, and if so, why?”
Yes. I do. I understand that you are angry because you have suffered an injustice, and rightly so. I don’t approve of any mistreatment of anyone based on their race/gender/religion etc.

“Now I feel like I actually know how to start working on improving conditions and transforming my anger into action.”

This is exactly my point. I think anyone/everyone should attempt to do this when they are passionate about a cause.

I think most of you are right, my privilege has made me blind and puts me in a position where I can conveniently judge the situation without actually having to suffer. I now better understand sexism and discrimination in general and will do what I can to support the ones who fight against it.

@SargassoSea
Please stop attempting to put words in my mouth. You are trying to put a spin on my words to make me sound like an ayatollah blaming natural disasters on feminist rage. I am not trolling and I am not insane, anyone in their right mind knows this is not what I meant nor did I say anything even remotely similar.
#79 Tlazolteotl
May 14, 2010

Oh yay! Thegoodd00d is going to fight for us like a knight in shining armor!

Somehow I don’t think he’s going to actually shut up and learn anything though, because he’s managed to hijack a couple of threads in a row and now obviously thinks this blog is all about him and his edification.
#80 SKM
May 14, 2010

Next step for thegoodman is to realize that kyriarchal oppression isn’t just something that happens to us pitiable women, whom enlightened men can grace with understanding as we struggle through this vague “injustice” (at whose hands?). Gender-based oppression affects men’s daily quality of life as well.

Seconding Zuska’s recommendation of The Gender Knot for thegoodman. You can read a bit of it on Google Books.

Sorry to be all WATM and PHMT, but I think it’s really relevant here based on recent comments by thegoodman.
#81 SKM
May 14, 2010

kyriarchal oppression isn’t just something that happens to us pitiable women

Poor choice of words on my part. Should read “isn’t just something that affects us pitiable women”. Men are not oppressed on the basis of gender. Johnson explains that quite well, by the way.
#82 April
May 15, 2010

Angry protests may have made the most noise during the civil rights movement, but I think that sit-ins and peaceful marches had the most lasting effect.

That’s incorrect and just plain silly. If anything women need to speak up more.
#83 skeptifem
May 15, 2010

You silly goose, april! Don’t you know that women got rights by politely asking for em? All the dudes in charge found the request reasonable when we batted our eyelashes and asked nicely, and we all had a big group hug afterwards. I happen to think that short skirts and baking cookies had something to do with it, too.
#84 joy
May 16, 2010

My incredibly intellectual, brilliant response to skeptifem, #82, is –

: D

Beautiful sarcasm, there. I’m happier to be alive now.
#85 Anonymoose
May 16, 2010

Its a good start, but obviously, needs more cleavage in the photo. I guess you left your ‘male-gaze-o-meter’ in the kitchen again!
#86 Isabel
May 16, 2010

“I now better understand sexism and discrimination in general and will do what I can to support the ones who fight against it.”

I think what people are trying to tell you is that if you ‘understood better’ you would be fighting side by side with women and other victims of discrimination or even taking the lead, not just supporting “the ones who fight against it.” Why should the victims of discrimination be primarily responsible for righting the power balance? They have less culpability and fewer resources. They should be supporting you as you (in this sexism example) take primary responsibility for change. For the record, I think you are trolling, though others are intentionally pushing buttons as well.

But one way or another, you and Spartan do seem to have the power to control these threads!
#87 Endor
May 17, 2010

“As if YOU have fuck-all to do with any kind of human achievement.”

Are you saying that being born a straight, white male ISN’T an earth shattering accomplishment that deserves nothing but praise for it’s awesomeness? Why do you hate men so much, femnazi!!

LOL. Personally, I enjoy thumping trolls and arguing with them. We must remember that in the audience are burgeoning feminists and allies that might not yet know how to counter the worthless delusion drivel of soggy wads like TP. Watching soggy wags like TP get trounced by logic, evidence, or even a really clever insult, is a teachable moment.

Soggy wags like TP are a lost cause. None of us need care about the horrible, terrifying delusions he lives with so long as they ruin only his life, who gives a crap.

but for the audience, those who don’t do well with conflict, or those just learning – for them, I’ll knock around some trolls in the hopes of helping the audience find her voice.
#88 joy
May 17, 2010

Well said, Endor. It’s why I do it too.

Clearly, someone like TP isn’t going to read what we wrote and say, “Oh, my, it’s as though the clouds have been parted for me — you ARE human, and I have been wrong all along!”

Nope. But leaving his shit up unaddressed hurts me like an unpulled sore tooth, and misses an opportunity to work on my own discourse a bit, hopefully having the simultaneous effect of bolstering other people.

So thank you, TP. You festering sore on the dick of mankind (note that I specified man-kind, not humankind, and certainly not womankind). And fuck off.
#89 Miss Andrist
May 18, 2010

TP – Joy’s right. And you know what we do to diseased peens around here, doncha?

^_^
#90 Queef
May 25, 2010

I’ll make sure to apologize to the hypersensitive people I offend when using that word.
#91 SKM
May 25, 2010

It’s nothing to do with being “sensitive” (let alone “hypersensitive”) or “offended”. It’s having contempt for assholes who can’t be arsed to think about the words they use and why, or about the experiences of those different from themselves.

I only mention this for those lurkers who have heard for the nonillionth time that objecting to prejudice means they are “hypersensitive”.

It’s not that you are too sensitive, dear lurkers; it’s that others are not sensitive at all to the perspectives of those on the margins for various intersecting reasons.
#92 Queef
May 25, 2010

I’ve thought about hysteria. I look at how the term is used in my daily world, I look at its various definitions, and I see very little problem in using it as synonymous with “crazy.”
#93 Queef
May 25, 2010

Besides, which is worse: inserting discrimination that isn’t present in the actual intent because of the history of the word, or comprehending the actual, present day intent (and how widespread said intent is) and making exception? Most people who use “hysterical” these days don’t mean “lose your mind like sexists believe women do.” They mean:

* craze: state of violent mental agitation
* excessive or uncontrollable fear
* neurotic disorder characterized by violent emotional outbreaks and disturbances of sensory and motor functions

Gender doesn’t enter into it any longer.
#94 Cara
May 25, 2010

Like your handle has nothing to do with women.

Again, you’re wrong, like, AGAIN. Unceasingly. Perpetually. Always absolutely, constantly, unfailingly wrong. Well done, Queef.
#95 Queef
May 26, 2010

Couldn’t be that I chose this handle because it rhymes with my first name (and that queefs can be funny for both sides). Nah, it’s just part of my dastardly plan to make Cara attempt to shout people down with nothing but declarations of “you’re wrong! Nah-nah nah-nah nah nah!”
#96 Cara
May 27, 2010

You’re still wrong. You’re also a liar. Does your mother know you get so little feminine attention you have to pull pigtails like this? I think it would make her sad.
#97 Queef
May 27, 2010

I’m pretty satisfied with my sex life. But, since that’s your first target, should I assume you’re not entirely happy with yours? No, I won’t. Because I honestly don’t care.
#98 Queef
May 27, 2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
#99 ginger
May 27, 2010

It’s not ad hominem fallacy if the observation about personality is to the point. You revived a week-dead thread to call the female participants “hypersensitive”. That’s deliberate agitation of the women here – pigtail-pulling.

I think Cara’s right on the money – although it’s not about sex. It’s about needing the girls to listen to you, and being willing to say practically anything to get their attention.

What our collective pathology is I can’t identify as easily, but there’s something wrong here that we can’t just let you be wrong and have the last word rather than keep indulging your need for attention. (Here I am right in the thick of it, too.)
#100 Queef
May 27, 2010

Welcome to the party.
#101 Comrade Svilova
May 29, 2010

I wonder if some if it is that we are so trained in “real life” to swallow things that are said that make us angry that we embrace the chance to say things online that we’d wish we could say in person. Perhaps I should just drop the third person here, however, and say that for me, I believe this is why I take advantage of opportunities to answer comments that bother me online. Some of the things I am able to express online are things that I am never able to express in person — or at least not as clearly — and it is encouraging to be able to articulate why something is problemmatic or offensive. And to get support from my fellow feminists who say “I hear you, I agree with you.”
#102 joy
May 31, 2010

Comrade Svilova, yes. Likewise here.

I do this in real life, too. It’s at the point where I have a counseling hotline on speed dial and call them to get reassurance that I’m not bad or crazy.
Mind, I am a particularly bad example, as I’m basically an emotional cripple from PTSD and would truly just knuckle under to the feeling of powerless without their reinforcement, but most people really do underestimate the power of (as you said), “I hear you, I agree with you.”

And “your experiences and feelings are valid, you aren’t crazy.”

All the rest of the world says to us, all the time, regardless of what we do or don’t do, is: “You’re bad. You’re dirty. You’re crazy. You’re hysterical. You aren’t wanted here. You are alone.”
It’s intensely powerful and immensely relieving to discover that even in small ways (strangers on the internet or on the other end of a telephone line), that is not true.
#103 fix it pro
June 1, 2010

All the rest of the world says to us, all the time, regardless of what we do or don’t do, is: “You’re bad. You’re dirty. You’re crazy. You’re hysterical. You aren’t wanted here. You are alone.”
#104 SKM
June 1, 2010

I agree with Comrade S. and joy.

When you consider that mainstream hetero white male experience is constantly validated–by books, by TV shows and news and ads, by movies, by water-cooler conversation–it’s hardly a play for world domination that some of us non-mainstreamers like to be able to find like minds in a blog thread.
#105 Comrade Svilova
June 1, 2010

But SKM, that’s not “hetero white male experience” that’s just normal, average people, unlike all those wacky different people whose precious voices should be carefully incorporated to add just enough (but not too much! they have to stay a small group so that the normal, average people don’t get overwhelmed) diversity to the world! {Sigh}
#106 Cara
June 2, 2010

What our collective pathology is I can’t identify as easily, but there’s something wrong here that we can’t just let you be wrong and have the last word rather than keep indulging your need for attention. (Here I am right in the thick of it, too.)

Ginger, it’s not pathology to refuse to let some little twerp rattle on (especially on a feminist site) without challenging his nonsense or outright mocking him. It’s common sense.

You’re right, his need for attention isn’t exactly sexual (thought that’s where his head went, and in typical AV Squad President fashion he insisted that that was where MY head was, and “first”, as if I hadn’t ever addressed him before).

It’s all about Mommy not getting to pee by herself without the little man banging on the bathroom door and screaming. Peenor-bearers as a class get indoctrinated with the idea that women exist solely for their pleasure, whether it’s sexual, or for comfort, or just for entertainment when they’re bored. That’s why these emotional toddlers show up to troll.

If the little man wanted to learn, he’d do it. He wants to think he’s making us upset because that’s better than being ignored. He keeps showing up, we can laugh at him and (with any luck) encourage men’s emotional developent past the age of two.

The world needs all kinds, if only to serve as bad examples for the rest of us.
#107 SKM
June 2, 2010

A quick anecdote related to little boys growing up as the center of the universe:

So yesterday, my 8-year-old nephew mercilessly ridiculed his 5-year-old sister because she was pretending to take cell-phone video with an old broken cell-phone. He sneered at her “no offense, but you’re totally embarrassing yourself acting like such a baby”. Yeah, complete with the “no offense but”. I had to remind him that when he was littler, he had a chunk of wood that he carried with him insisting that it was “his cell phone”. When he did it, everyone cooed about what adorable little genius he was. When she plays a more sophisticated game, the grown-ups ignore her completely, and he denounces her as an embarrassment and worthy of ridicule.

I reminded him that when he did it, there was nobody there standing over his shoulder sneering at him for being a baby. “Crushing his dreams”, as he himself likes to put it when things upset him.

I know some of this is sibling rivalry, but gender clearly plays into it as well. It’s stark how much he has been favored over his sister, and my mother, for one, has openly cited gender as a reason.

Only now is she pulling ahead a bit, by absolutely smoking his ass at spelling and reading (yeah she’s 5). Twice as good to get half the credit–sound familiar?
#108 Comrade Svilova
June 3, 2010

That center of the universe thing is probably directly related to how little boys perceive others working FOR them, and also how they are socialized to put their own needs/feelings/desires ahead of those of others.

As a kid, I not only did my own chores, but my parents were always asking me to help out with the chores my brother left undone OR asking me for tips on how they could get him to do his chores. Sometimes they would ask me to ask him to do his chores; other times they would just take care of his work for him, while I still did my share.

Most of said chores were things like cooking, dishwashing, cleaning, dusting. Women’s work, no? And this was from a very progressive family and my brother is a lovely guy. He just figured out early on that as long as he didn’t care about hurting anyone’s feelings, making people angry, and disappointing the parents, he could get away with murder. Whereas I, socialized to put others’ feelings above my own, always bent over backwards to try to make up for his lack of effort.
#109 SKM
June 3, 2010

Whereas I, socialized to put others’ feelings above my own, always bent over backwards to try to make up for his lack of effort.

Yup. And when we do what we were raised to do, we get blamed for not being “assertive enough” or whatever. Three guesses as to how it goes if we break that conditioning and look out for #1.

Cultural clusterfuckastrophe aside, listening to my 5-year-old niece read Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets aloud is the awesomest thing ever (that’s what we did this morning, along with learning how to carry and borrow). So, that’s second-grade math, and–what?–fifth grade reading? Kindergarten is going to be a huge bore for her come fall, and TX does not let you skip Kindergarten.
#110 Kate
June 6, 2010

I had the opportunity today to show a friend of mine who is a white male what it might be like to be female during a job interview. I asked him to imagine he was about halfway through a normal interview, then I asked the one question that I know he’s never heard before:

“Are you going to need to arrange a special scedule so you can be home for your kids or your husband at a specific time?”

He was shocked, SHOCKED that anyone would ask such a thing and honestly believed that if HIS employer asked women such a question they would be reported to human resources immediately. I informed him I have been asked a version of this question in every interview I have ever had.

I think I blew his mind a little…