economy https://scienceblogs.com/ en Climate Change in the 'Hood https://scienceblogs.com/seed/2017/07/27/climate-change-in-the-hood <span>Climate Change in the &#039;Hood</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On Class M, James Hrynyshyn shows us how climate change will <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/classm/2017/07/18/hyper-local-climate-impact-forecast-finally/"><i>benefit</i> the economies of some U.S. counties</a> while damaging many others. This mostly has to do with location; coastal areas and southern latitudes are more threatened, with Florida poised to suffer worst of all. James writes, "we're not just talking about polar bears anymore. It's now about jobs, wages, infrastructure, crime." Meanwhile, William M. Connolley reports Antarctica's Larsen C ice shelf is 12% smaller due to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2017/07/14/oh-larsen-c/">a giant iceberg splitting off</a> and heading (presumably) toward Miami. Greg Laden says denial of global warming has <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/07/08/michael-man-did-not-sabotage-his-law-suit-but-deniers-are-sabotaging-the-planet/">shaped political discourse for decades</a>, thanks to "deep pocketed one percenters and corporations harboring the unfortunate delusion that if we pretend climate change is not caused by the burning of fossil fuels, everything will be fine and they'll keep getting rich." But public awareness of the problem, like sea level, continues to rise.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/milhayser" lang="" about="/author/milhayser" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">milhayser</a></span> <span>Thu, 07/27/2017 - 08:37</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/misc" hreflang="en">Misc</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/calving" hreflang="en">Calving</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/denial" hreflang="en">Denial</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/forecast" hreflang="en">Forecast</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/fossil-fuels" hreflang="en">fossil fuels</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/global-warming" hreflang="en">global warming</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/infrastructure" hreflang="en">infrastructure</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/larsen-c" hreflang="en">Larsen C</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/local" hreflang="en">local</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sea-level-rise" hreflang="en">sea level rise</a></div> </div> </div> <section> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/seed/2017/07/27/climate-change-in-the-hood%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:37:38 +0000 milhayser 69284 at https://scienceblogs.com New study finds link between mass job losses and teen suicide behaviors https://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2014/08/19/new-study-finds-link-between-mass-job-losses-and-teen-suicide-behaviors <span>New study finds link between mass job losses and teen suicide behaviors</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Previous research has documented a link between downturns in the economy and suicide among adults. But how do those downturns ripple throughout families and communities, and in particular, how do massive job losses affect the mental health of teens? A new study has found that, sadly, many teens are not immune to the stress of a struggling economy.</p> <p>Published online last week in the <em>American Journal of Public Health</em>, researchers found that increases in statewide job losses are associated with heightened suicide-related behaviors among adolescent girls and black teens. Specifically, the <a href="http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302081">study</a> found that job losses among 1 percent of a state’s working-age population increased the probability of young girls and black teens reporting suicide-related behaviors by 2 to 3 percentage points. The same job losses did not have an impact on the suicide behaviors of boys, whites or Hispanics. To conduct the study, researchers examined Youth Risk Behavior Survey data as well as Bureau of Labor Statistics data between 1997 and 2009. The study noted that youth suicide is a “serious public health concern,” with suicide being the third leading cause of death for young people ages 10 to 24 years old.</p> <p>Anna Gassman-Pines, a lead author on the study and an assistant professor public policy, psychology and neuroscience at the Center for Child and Family Policy at Duke University, said that on one hand, the results weren’t entirely unexpected, considering previous research on adults. On the other hand, Gassman-Pines told me that the results were somewhat surprising, as the uptick in teen suicide behavior was an indirect effect of job loss — in other words, it’s very unlikely that it was the affected teen who lost the job.</p> <p>So, if the results tell a story of mostly indirect effects, how can researchers be sure of a link? Gassman-Pines responded that if the study only examined one period of time, researchers might be worried that the uptick in suicide behaviors was due to other variables. However, this study gathered more than a decade worth of data, and researchers consistently found the same unfortunate trends. Gassman-Pines also noted that the data covered periods of economic boom and recession, and so the findings are “not just a story about recession – it’s really a story about when these mass layoffs and closings occur, what are some of the consequences?”</p> <p>Gassman-Pines and her colleagues found that job losses among 1 percent of the working-age population increased the probability of teen girls reporting suicidal ideation by 2 percentage points and suicide plans by 2.2 percentage points. Among black adolescents, the same job losses increased self-reported suicidal ideation by 2.3 percentage points, suicide plans by 3.1 percentage points and suicide attempts by 2 percentage points. The study noted that job losses seemed to exacerbate pre-existing gender gaps, as girls are more likely than boys to engage in suicide-related behavior and experience serious mood or anxiety disorders. Also, while black youth tend to experience lower levels of suicide-related behaviors and mental illness overall, the study results are consistent with previous research finding that local job losses are associated with a disproportionate use of emergency psychiatric care among black teens. Gassman-Pines and study co-authors Elizabeth Oltmans Ananat and Christina Gibson-Davis write:</p> <blockquote><p>Follow-up analyses increased our confidence that the association between statewide job loss and adolescent suicide-related behaviors was not attributable to other aspects of states’ economic circumstances, including the unemployment rate, poverty rate, gross domestic product, or home mortgage delinquency rate. These results suggest that our measure of job loss was not simply a proxy for other aspects of a state’s economic climate but instead represented a meaningful economic shock that led to changes in girls’ and black adolescents’ suicide-related behaviors.</p></blockquote> <p>“I think most importantly, we should all be thinking about the widespread effects of these kinds of layoffs and business closings,” Gassman-Pines told me. “We tend to think about the people who have been laid off as the only affected people who may need services and while certainly they’re the most affected, we’d benefit from thinking about the needs that go beyond the directly affected workers.”</p> <p>She said the study findings may be particularly useful to schools, social service workers, after-school programs and other community stakeholders who regularly work with young people and at-risk youth.</p> <p>“These are big enough job losses that people are generally aware of them, so just knowing about this link might help (stakeholders) intervene early and prevent suicides down the road,” she said.</p> <p>To request a full copy of the study, visit the <a href="http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2014.302081"><em>American Journal of Public Health</em></a>.</p> <p><em>Kim Krisberg is a freelance public health writer living in Austin, Texas, and has been writing about public health for more than a decade.</em></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/kkrisberg" lang="" about="/author/kkrisberg" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">kkrisberg</a></span> <span>Tue, 08/19/2014 - 10:49</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/public-health-general" hreflang="en">Public Health - General</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/research" hreflang="en">Research</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/safety" hreflang="en">safety</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/adolescent-health" hreflang="en">adolescent health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/job-loss" hreflang="en">job loss</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mental-health" hreflang="en">mental health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/prevention" hreflang="en">Prevention</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/public-health" hreflang="en">public health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/suicide" hreflang="en">suicide</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/research" hreflang="en">Research</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/safety" hreflang="en">safety</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1872908" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1408477176"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Bureau of Labor Statistics issued a report on 8/13/14 which showed black youth unemployment at twice the rate of white youth unemployment.</p> <p>Is the suicide rate for black youths significantly higher than for white youths?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1872908&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XsGB4CDxuYWYBWQiSiW054JK7Zh8zq6Tj3Ho8ckwVuU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">See Noevo (not verified)</span> on 19 Aug 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1872908">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="73" id="comment-1872909" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1408541199"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi See Noevo, Thanks for your question. According to CDC data, the highest suicide rates for people ages 10 to 24 years old are in American Indian/Alaska Native communities. Also, suicides rates for white people in that age group are higher than for black people in that age group. More info is here: <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/aag.html#4">http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/aag.html#4</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1872909&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wm7IzOSVRuXhtNRXH0WhUbV_74ni5UWcWO-SThtCM4Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/kkrisberg" lang="" about="/author/kkrisberg" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">kkrisberg</a> on 20 Aug 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1872909">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/kkrisberg"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/kkrisberg" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/TPH_map.jpg?itok=gR7oRuMi" width="90" height="90" alt="Profile picture for user kkrisberg" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thepumphandle/2014/08/19/new-study-finds-link-between-mass-job-losses-and-teen-suicide-behaviors%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:49:45 +0000 kkrisberg 62163 at https://scienceblogs.com Study: Mental health impact of foreclosure ripples throughout communities https://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2014/02/28/study-mental-health-impact-of-foreclosure-ripples-throughout-communities <span>Study: Mental health impact of foreclosure ripples throughout communities</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It’s probably no surprise that people who experienced foreclosures during the Great Recession may have also experienced symptoms of depression. However, researchers have found that the mental health effects of foreclosure go beyond the individual to the community at-large.</p> <p>“For the most part, discussion of foreclosure has focused on the individual experience, the people who are in this circumstance, who are at risk of losing their homes, of losing that nest egg,” said Kathleen Cagney, a professor within the Department of Sociology at the University of Chicago. “But we wanted to think about foreclosure in a structural way, at the community level. We wanted to examine (foreclosure) as a neighborhood experience.”</p> <p>Cagney is the co-author of a <a href="http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301566">study</a> that did just that and which was published in the March issue of the <i>American Journal of Public Health (AJPH)</i>. To conduct the study, researchers examined data from the <a href="http://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/national-social-life-health-and-aging-project.aspx">National Social Life, Health and Aging Projec</a>t, focusing in on older adults ages 57 years old and older in Los Angeles, New York City and Chicago. Cagney, who also directs the <a href="http://www.norc.org/Research/Departments/Pages/academic-research-centers/population-research-center.aspx">Population Research Center</a> at the university’s National Opinion Research Center, said she and her colleagues decided to focus on older adults because they tend to be more connected to their communities — “they spend more of their days in their neighborhoods, pick up signals more readily and can be more susceptible to what’s happening in a neighborhood,” Cagney told me.</p> <p>The study found a “dramatic uptick” in reports of depressive symptoms among older adults who lived in communities most affected by the foreclosure crisis. In other words, a rise in neighborhood-level foreclosures was found to be a risk factor for depression in older adults. Depressive symptoms were associated with increases in mortgage default notices, with homes coming under the ownership of banks and with increases in properties going to auction. Cagney and co-authors Christopher Browning, James Iveniuk and Ned English wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>Interestingly, increases in neighborhood poverty and visible disorder were not statistically significant, suggesting that neither of these contextual factors was important to the mechanism connecting foreclosure and depression. This result is consistent with recent findings in the social sciences suggesting that the impact of foreclosure on communities is independent of disorder. We speculate that foreclosure is a sign of disorder in its own right; a posting of foreclosure, regardless of the quality of the property in arrears, signals instability and disinvestment akin to trash on the street or sidewalks in disrepair. Thus, foreclosure can embody components of disorder even when it may not immediately lead to other visible forms of disorder, such as a dilapidated porch or a broken picture window.</p></blockquote> <p>Cagney said that although researchers did expect to find a link between foreclosure and depression in the wider community, “we found a stronger link than we anticipated.” Another surprising finding was the uptick in depression symptoms throughout every stage of foreclosure and not just when visible signs of foreclosure, such as disrepair or unkempt lawns, began to appear.</p> <p>“Foreclosure is experienced by all of us,” Cagney told me. “It alters all of our daily lives when the world around us feels unstable, as if it’s disintegrating. That’s going to impact our health, emotionally and physically.”</p> <p>So how can public health workers use Cagney’s findings in their work with older adults? She said that high rates of foreclosure in a neighborhood might be predictive of problems that come with social isolation, signaling a need for additional support services or interventions. For example, with fewer residents, churches may cancel events, the local community center might get shuttered or the streets are simply less busy with the usual bustle of a thriving neighborhood. Even if it’s simply waving hello to a local business owner who had to close up shop — these are the seemingly insignificant activities that impact social connection and mental wellness, Cagney said. The study recommends that “at the neighborhood level, communities may want to manage distressed and abandoned properties so they do not introduce physically or socially compromised spaces that older adults must navigate.”</p> <p>“Just going outside and seeing action on the streets, even if you don’t have a conversation, has a social benefit,” Cagney told me. “You feel like a part of something. You don’t feel alone.”</p> <p>To access the full <i>AJPH</i> study, click <a href="http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301566">here</a>.</p> <p><i>Kim Krisberg is a freelance public health writer living in Austin, Texas, and has been writing about public health for more than a decade.</i><i></i></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/kkrisberg" lang="" about="/author/kkrisberg" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">kkrisberg</a></span> <span>Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:45</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/government" hreflang="en">government</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mental-health" hreflang="en">mental health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/public-health-general" hreflang="en">Public Health - General</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/research" hreflang="en">Research</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/community-health" hreflang="en">community health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/depression" hreflang="en">depression</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/foreclosure" hreflang="en">Foreclosure</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/housing" hreflang="en">Housing</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/neighborhood-health" hreflang="en">neighborhood health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/older-adults" hreflang="en">older adults</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/public-health" hreflang="en">public health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/recession" hreflang="en">recession</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/social-isolation" hreflang="en">social isolation</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mental-health" hreflang="en">mental health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/research" hreflang="en">Research</a></div> </div> </div> <section> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thepumphandle/2014/02/28/study-mental-health-impact-of-foreclosure-ripples-throughout-communities%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:45:09 +0000 kkrisberg 62041 at https://scienceblogs.com Does Buying Local Matter? https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/10/05/does-buying-local-matter <span>Does Buying Local Matter?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A reader asked me to comment on <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/video-economy-lab-mcguintys-local-food-challenge-misses-economic-mark/article4590094/" target="_blank">this video</a> critiquing Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's challenge to Ontario consumers to spend ten more dollars a week on local, Ontario produced food.  My first comment is that people who speak like affectless zombies probably should stick to the written word, rather than making videos, but that's more of an aesthetic critique.  Beyond that, however, there is the tiny germ (if you can find it under the same old economist free market babble) of a real question - how much impact does switching our dollars into local foods and products actually have?</p> <p>Most of the video is worthless, and an obvious kind of worthless, complete with the usual free market economist references to North Korea (I bet you didn't know that buying apples and maple syrup could turn you into North Korea!), which is the economist version of playing the Nazi card, and worthy of just as much attention.</p> <p>Now I'm not going to argue the numbers with Moffat.  While Ontario is roughly adjacent to NY, it isn't my particular stomping grounds and I don't actually care enough to find out if McGuinty's numbers about jobs and dollars are correct.  Moreover, I would take it as a given that they aren't - politician claims about jobs created are always exaggerated.  But Moffat didn't have to make a video to make that point - and pretty much everyone knows that jobs claims are overstated every single time any politician ever mentions jobs.  So let's address the real issue - does buying local make an economic difference locally?</p> <p>Moffat, of course, radically overstates his position too - we leap immediately to the end of all trade if buyers shift those ten bucks on over - that's it, we'll never buy anything from anywhere else again!  But sorting through the empty rhetoric to that germ of content, Moffat also dismisses without any real argument any claim that spending dollars locally actually makes a difference - after all, he claims that Canadian dollars spent in foreign markets go straight back to Canada as foreign buyers purchase Canadian goods.</p> <p>In some measures <a href="http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/16-201-x/2009000/part-partie1-eng.htm" target="_blank">he has a case</a>.  The vast majority of imported food in Canada comes from the US (57%) and 55% of Canadian food exports go right back to the US.  So he is right that some of those trade dollars go right back to the purchase of Canadian products for export.  So if all you think about here are abstract numbers, there is little difference.  What you actually take a look at what consumers buy, however, there's more difference than you might think.</p> <p>You see when people think "local food" for the most part, they aren't thinking about Ontario's largest crops - raw grains and oilseeds.  While some more serious local food eaters do focus on grains, most local food purchases are meat, dairy, eggs, fruits and vegetables or products like honey and maple syrup.  So the focus on trade here is a little disingenuous - you aren't comparing apples to apples.  With the exception of some meat, most of Ontario's agricultural exports are grains and seeds - and the average consumer isn't going to say "Oh, honey, let's pick up a few bushels of local rapeseed for the home oil press tonight" - what we are talking about is shifting dollars away from imported processed foods to locally produced less processed foods.</p> <p>More importantly than the largely irrelevant trade issue, or the claims of "overpaying" (McGuire suggesting shifting 10 dollars, not adding 10 dollars in your total food budget as Moffat disingenuously implies) is the fact that the money goes from large multinational food producers to smaller farmers.  52% of Ontario farmers are smaller farmers, grossing less than 100K per year (remember, that's GROSS, net is always way, way less in agriculture).  <a href="http://www.toronto.ca/health/tfpc/pdf/omafra_policy_shift.pdf" target="_blank">Those small farmers are disproportionately clustered</a> in horticultural products (ie, vegetables and fruit), eggs, grassfed meat, dairy and sweeteners - ie, the things people think of when they "buy local food."</p> <p>While it is true that the employees of large multinational corporations do spend some of their dollars on Canadian products, mostly energy, let's just reason this one out.  Hmmm...Hormel packer in India or Tenneseee vs. small Ontario farmer...which one do we think spends more money on Canadian products...hmmm...wow, that's a tough one.  Or maybe not so much.  You simply up the odds that the money will reverbate through the local economy when you spend it locally.</p> <p>Moreover, there are other issues to consider.  Between 1997 and 2007, Ontario lost 15% of its farms, 20% of its agricultural population and saw tens of thousands of farmland lost to agriculture.  Implying that residents have no interest in preserving Ontario's agriculture and small farm culture - indeed have no interest in anything except markets, is one of the reasons economics gets labelled "autistic" - that is, unable to get outside its own narrow worldview.</p> <p>Outside the narrow worldview of free market essentialism, most of us want use our dollars to reinforce our basic values - the Ontario people want to live in is one that has farms and farmland.  The Ontario people may inherit in an area of climate change MUST have a viable agriculture, as food insecurity takes root.</p> <p>But, of course, do we really want to take the risk that buying those local apples will turn us into North Korea?</p> <p>Sharon</p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Fri, 10/05/2012 - 09:31</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/agriculture" hreflang="en">agriculture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/local-food" hreflang="en">local food</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mcguire" hreflang="en">McGuire</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/moffat" hreflang="en">Moffat</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ontario" hreflang="en">ontario</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887330" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349453127"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's also the issue of shifting that $10 out of a local farmer's pocket (who pays local taxes, uses the local utilities, sends his kids to local swim lessons, etc.), and puts it into the pocket of some nebulous "elsewhere" pocket via international trade agreements (i.e., not someone likely to be purchasing swimming lessons locally any time soon). That is, the money might, technically, stay in the *country*, but it sure doesn't stay in your community, and very likely doesn't stay anywhere likely to improve the quality of life of anyone you know or care about.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887330&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yovaypCaCZ5OyMyCwD_r313ez3iLa4ZYxLUuv5YtkVo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Robyn M. (not verified)</span> on 05 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887330">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887331" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349454192"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon, well-written. </p> <p>I'm not a locavore type, and I'm just as happy to support a peasant farmer in Columbia as a local one. They're both deserving of my support, and it'd be xenophobic to imply that one is necessarily better than the other. </p> <p>But as you note, supporting local foods also means supporting local *values*. Do I care how the tax money is spent, or about the labor and environmental policies behind my food? If so, then I can "vote" with my dollars. And for that reason, I'm less likely to buy Chinese products than European ones.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887331&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="APzdqWpIz8_eaVBNAfdPD7Vd4fbKoK-9MxiXvbcoCD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Windchasers (not verified)</span> on 05 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887331">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887332" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349497966"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, the thing is that if it costs more to buy local, stimulating the local economy might not actually be worth it to the buyer, even if that is what happens. Indeed, stimulating the economy may lead to increases in some prices such as food, as labor prices increase when unemployment rates go down, and agriculture, for example, is pretty local labor intensive.</p> <p>If you work for a multinational company, you may not be better off with a stronger local economy. If you work for a company that sells to locals and you are at less than full capacity and could use more customers then maybe you would benefit from local stimulus.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887332&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_yNiLa8tCRgK2ZnP9yDy4CD79AusvhkbPPN1y4ucLfs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Josh (not verified)</span> on 06 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887332">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887333" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349501674"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This Windchasers person sounds kind of schizophrenic to me, claiming that a foreigner and a local are both equally deserving of support and that to think otherwise would be "xenophobic", but then suddenly it's OK to prefer to support the locals instead of the foreigners, because of the local "values" that the local person has and the foreigner doesn't.</p> <p>Oh well, at least Windchasers managed to rationalize something that probably sounded to him/her like an "intelligent" and "enlightened" etc. reason to do and think what he/she decided to do and think.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887333&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JLenM2uxAKaMTTMZeq3LAbQqZA3dCSXAwrSo8-Lki68"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Asdfgh (not verified)</span> on 06 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887333">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887334" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349520397"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The whole "buy local" thing is a moderately respectable way for the proven murdering lying Nazis, who make up the Green movement to express their racist hatred for anybody who lives in other countries (or indeed other states, towns or neighbourhoods).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887334&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hp6Xusd46BGYuTNMM4RKpkPDatVH3ASr5QYNwvfk-4U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 06 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887334">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887335" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349628091"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the overpaying issue, the fact that I am "shifting" ten dollars in my budget from non-local foods to local foods rather than adding ten dollars doesn't mean that I'm not overpaying. It just means that you will have to eat less overall to make up for buying the overpriced produce.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887335&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FyyXdaVQmb1h00IXLZyNAHCVqCC1q54iOxxCUunEXXQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Josiah (not verified)</span> on 07 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887335">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887336" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349711633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Are local goods overpriced or are Big Ag foods underpriced? The big boys have more funds for marketing, lobbying, etc., plus getting most of the gov't subsidies for farming, don't they? If they weren't getting help, I expect their prices would be a little higher...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887336&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5S9KfQce7JtL3UHoqqy9erKLcFSvpz0GezDLoK2l9C8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Heather G (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887336">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887337" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349726881"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are a variety of food quality and food content issues at play in local versus big Ag sources. Regardless of those issues I prefer to support local producers even if it costs a bit more simply because I think the 2,000 mile salad is soon going to be a thing of the past. Supporting local growers now means they're more likely to be in business when I need them - when the 2,000 mile salad conveyor belt stops.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887337&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aPML67PD8SrgP3TXWYef2CzjhvJAkaucSdYfmOEb6Ds"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kirk (not verified)</span> on 08 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887337">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887338" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349877311"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Regardless of the values of farmers near or far, when you buy food from far away, some of the money is going to an oil company-and they certainly don't need it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887338&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7lw-ODRclElCfW6ywkDGbsMk-pbxTTHZ7PfwHnzM190"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sandra Wilson (not verified)</span> on 10 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887338">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887339" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349959407"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know you have made this same point before, and today you bring a slightly different version of your conclusion. The illustration of the impact on retaining farming resources vs. international trade balances is very important.</p> <p>It is almost like advocating taking local food security from the formal economy back to an informal economic function.</p> <p>But I would like to see this conclusion and example restated in a succinct form, aimed at catching the attention and informing those not already on board with the whole conversation about local food security.</p> <p>Thanks!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887339&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tcN0pYKeaACddjuNPEZ9Nl1VvOu868_lk7Y9qgU7Ajk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brad K. (not verified)</span> on 11 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887339">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="78" id="comment-1887340" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1349971319"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No one has actually demonstrated that buying local IS more expensive in any objective sense, and I'd challenge you to do so. Studies of local organic produce have demonstrated that in-season, prices are often pretty much the same if you are buying what is currently available. Moreover, people pay for quality in both markets - so you'd have to demonstrate that the quality was equal or lesser. Feel free to do so. But just saying it is so doesn't make it so.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887340&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ToAZ6jLuevlj3_XSpeL1-l7Ei9E_hw8avz1pY16HdCw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a> on 11 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887340">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/sastyk"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/sastyk" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887341" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1350049107"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>By definition if tou are limiting your choices more than somebody who is willing to buy anything, you have fewer choices and must sometimes choose something more expensive than what you really want. I suspect rice grown in New York would be considerably more expensive than that grown in China.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887341&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zQaQQ3K_aR6VOrpJHaVwI4LiHks76zyv1shrfvaAdzU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 12 Oct 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887341">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/10/05/does-buying-local-matter%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 13:31:57 +0000 sastyk 63910 at https://scienceblogs.com Yet Another Wave of Global Unrest? https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/09/28/yet-another-wave-of-global-unrest <span>Yet Another Wave of Global Unrest?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>From Simon Black at Business Insider:</p> <p><em>The researchers’ analysis went a step further, though; they modeled the relationship between food prices and social unrest to reach a simple conclusion– whenever the UN Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO)’s global food price index climbs above 210, conditions ripen for social unrest.</em></p> <p><em>Read more: <a href="http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/two-no-brainer-ways-to-play-rising-food-prices-8900/#ixzz27moSPcTK">http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/two-no-brainer-ways-to-play-rising-food-prices-8900/#ixzz27moSPcTK</a></em></p> <p>We're currently at 213.  Read the whole thing, including Black's exhortation to get a garden, at least.  Not that that's news if you read here regularly.</p> <p>Sharon</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Fri, 09/28/2012 - 11:26</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/agriculture" hreflang="en">agriculture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887315" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1348858071"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon, I love your writing and perspectives, and usually when you link to outside material it's very worth it. I looked around a bit on sovereignman.com, though, and I have to say I'm a bit perturbed by the ideology espoused there. It smacks of the ultra-libertarian 'sovereign citizen' movement here in the states. It seems especially disturbing to me that Black emphasizes wealth and advocates simply leaving to a safe haven when the going gets tough. Based on his about page, he seems to think true freedom can only be achieved through wealth, which is a rather narcissistic approach in a world that's contracting economically and will probably send more and more people into poverty in the near future.</p> <p>I'd be interested to know more about why you pointed out this piece in particular. It is interesting to note that even people with very different ideologies can see trouble on the horizon. It's also worthwhile to see that people with capital are starting to realize the value of farmland. Still, I appreciate your perspective of promoting resilience and community more than Black's idea of buying land in Uruguay so he can move there and live high on the hog when the going gets tough in the US. Are there other salient points in his piece that I'm missing?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887315&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SH9Mkt_4bnLT2Gfl4mDSsJZXVnGvi4eaMtpLb7al9GA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Nathan (not verified)</span> on 28 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887315">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887316" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1348872200"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>...except for the part where he says that "Long-term, technology will ultimately solve these problems…" Aside from that, I'm generally with him.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887316&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Qxfrm8v_2zFAkcSjbHbgOqCoNfnjDqOhkHpQYALWWSE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michelle (not verified)</span> on 28 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887316">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1887317" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1348890520"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I got a good laugh out of that sentence of his too, Michelle.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1887317&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YSsye5WZX_sAcnQdNAjb3TKePsIRqDkwp45hQowwLRQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Stephen B. (not verified)</span> on 28 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1887317">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/09/28/yet-another-wave-of-global-unrest%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:26:24 +0000 sastyk 63907 at https://scienceblogs.com Do You Have To Believe In Climate Change? https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/08/02/do-you-have-to-believe-in-climate-change <span>Do You Have To Believe In Climate Change?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let us begin with the clear statement that asking whether you have to believe in climate change in no way alters the fundamental scientific consensus, or the tens of thousands of peer reviewed papers.   I personally think the evidence for anthropogenic climate change is very clear.  But that doesn't change the fact that global warming at this point is viewed as an ideological issue, rather than scientific one, and that many people do not believe that it exists, or that humans cause it.  In fact, while recent extreme weather has shifted the culture somewhat, it seems safe to say that a solid majority of Americans don't take climate change very seriously.  So do they have to?</p> <p>In a perfect world, of course, science would be the only area of dispute - once the general scientific consensus emerges and all evidence is taken into account, everyone would do an analytic reading of the science and a majority would emerge from purely rational grounds.  Since, however, we live on earth, not in a perfect world, and pure scientific reasoning has never ever been the grounds for the general public's take on anything, almost certainly never will be, and is often not the grounds that even most scientists make most of their decisions, let us abandon that idea.  I realize most scientists like to believe that if they just presented the right data or showed the right graph minds would be changed, but human beings don't work that way - the triumph of reason is not going to happen any time soon.</p> <p>It is, of course, very satisfying to persuade others to your point of view.  It is also reasonable, when a great deal is at stake for those on either side of an issue to become angry and frustrated at the people who seem not to understand or care about things you care about.  Since many lives, much money and much more is at stake, it is understandable that people on both sides of the issue become polarized and angry on this subject.    For those who believe in anthropogenic global warming, what's at stake is enormous.  Millions of human lives.  Food security for billions.  Quality of life for everyone and for every future generation.   It is also frustrating when your reasoning is disagreed with on grounds you consider irrational. No wonder they get angry at the "other side."</p> <p>Let us note, however, that what's at stake on the other side is also significant.  The economic and social costs of putting all of our time and resources into addressing climate change are non-trivial.  For the many people who see more critical crises coming, this also risks costing lives and well being.  It is conventional, of course, for one side of an issue to explain at length how others have no reason not to agree with them, but this is disingenuous.  While there are some people who legitimately recognize that the evidence is better on one side of the issue than another, and who use climate change to manipulate, most people who do not take climate change seriously, or don't believe it could be human caused believe this sincerely, right or wrong.  Their hostility to the other side is based on a perception of dishonesty and misallocation of resources that is sincere - that is, if you believed this, you'd be pissed too.</p> <p>Let us also note that among those who sincerely believe in climate change IS anthropogenic and that we SHOULD be doing something about it, the vast majority believe not that they should peNicharsonally transform their lives, but that SOMEONE ELSE, probably the government, should do something about climate change.  Moreover, even most climate change believers express no real willingness to make sacrifices or fundamental changes in order to ensure that the precautionary principle is supported.  Despite the fact that we know that we need to make drastic, near-term emissions reductions to reduce climate risk, most people, as Bill McKibben points out in his widely read Rolling Stone essay <a href="http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719#ixzz21scR2QLk" target="_blank">"Global Warming's Terrifying New Math"</a> have no interest in any solution that makes their own lives harder.</p> <p><em>"People perceive – correctly – that their individual actions will not make a decisive difference in the atmospheric concentration of CO2; by 2010, a poll found that "while recycling is widespread in America and 73 percent of those polled are paying bills online in order to save paper," only four percent had reduced their utility use and only three percent had purchased hybrid cars. Given a hundred years, you could conceivably change lifestyles enough to matter – but time is precisely what we lack."</em></p> <p>What they are happy to do is be politically angry at those who disagree with them - to categorize others as enemies of the future and themselves.  The difficulty with this is that this incredible polarization has done no one any good - we are further now from making progress on climate change than we were five years ago - and with significantly less time to do it in.  Feeling angry at the other side, organizing activities that only the left participates in and political opposition take more time than changing individual action, and are less productive in our deeply polarized US.  At this point, climate change opposition has taken hold ideologically on the right, moderate right and most of the US center.  Historically speaking, when the right, moderate right and US center agree on something, the left spends a lot of time tilting at windmills and it loses.  As long as climate change is a politically polarized left-right issue, it is doomed to inaction.</p> <p>I should say that I also do not agree with McKibben's analysis of individual action here (indeed, I've had this discussion privately by email with McKibben previously, arguing that the emergence not of a bunch of single actions a la changing your lightbulbs, but a of a way of life that people can aspire to and adopt collectively is in fact, one of the most critical projects we can engage in), but I won't take much time on it - <a href="http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-07-31/bill-mckibben-wrong-we-must-not-forget-we-have-met-enemy-and-he-us" target="_blank">Nicholas Arguimbau has already done a better job</a> than I would at dismantling his argument, so we will lay that aside for today.</p> <p>The larger question is this - if neither changing people's practices habit by habit will work, nor will trying to take an issue that should be about science but is in fact about politics and removing its ideological taint while also changing the minds of a 100 million people or so, is there any other alternative?  Do you, in fact, have to believe in global warming to do what is needed?</p> <p>Well, in the purely political sphere, you probably do.  Carbon tax legislation is probably only going to pass when/if a critical number of people  agree on this issue.  And the difficulty with this is that as climate change helps destabilize economy (note, I am not claiming it is the primary driver by any means, just that more and more disasters makes an already unstable economy weaker), and we also bear the costs of all sorts of other prior stupidities, it is less likely that many Americans, even if they do support  "Someone somewhere doing something about climate change" will actually support exercises on the necessary scale - because it would cost them economically.  Claims that we can adapt smoothly to climate change without massive self-sacrifice are generally made on older analyses tend to be based on energy cuts that are far lower than necessary.</p> <p>But what if you focus on ends and means, and shift the discussion away from one's position on climate change, and towards the outcomes one wants to see?  You do have to believe we have a problem of some sort in our culture - it could be a carbon emissions problem, of course, but it could also be an oil depletion problem.  It could be a dependence on foreign resources, or a moral problem with the destruction of the underlying natural basis for human existence.  It could be a religious problem with a way of life that has become both destructive and alien from founding principles, or an aesthetic problem with the fundamental ugliness and emptiness of a way of life.  It could also be an economic problem - an increasing struggle to balance rising energy prices and the cost of natural disasters, occurring for whatever reason.</p> <p>What I have found over the years is that on this ground, there are plenty of allies that cannot exist over one politicized single issue.  Does that mean you can accomplish everything one would like to?  No, almost certainly not - but in comparison to what we are accomplishing right now in terms of climate change (ie, nothing), it is possible to imagine making changes worth making in lifestyle, community, and at a host of political levels (smaller is often easier) if the ground shifts to other territory.</p> <p>The local food movement is a primary example of how well this works - there are people who are into farmer's markets and community gardens because they care about the carbon footprint of their eggplant, but there are also plenty of people in it for other reasons - for moral reasons, for reasons of food justice, to reduce the oil in their agriculture, because gardening is fun, because good food tastes good.  The coalition of people who care about eating on various grounds has been highly successful in making real change - and fairly rapid change.   I don't need to agree with my neighbor about why we should have a local farmer's market or a coop - I only need to share a view of the ends we would accomplish.</p> <p>I admire Bill McKibben, and I agree with him about the critical importance of addressing global warming.  But I think his tactics are wrong - I don't see the political change he is hoping for happening, or happening fast enough.  Yes, changing the world "one person at a time" is the wrong way, but so is fighting a battle that fundamentally is now about something else.  Yes, there will come a moment when everyone more or less agrees we have to address climate change - but we can't wait for that to happen, and it probably won't happen soon.  In the end, what we want is a world where we consume fewer resources and produce fewer emissions.  It would be nice to be able to do that with a consensus about the grounds for doing so - but I think trying to make one is fundamentally a mistake.  In the end, it is the outcomes that matter.</p> <p>I will be clear - I think climate change is real, it is human-caused, and we are not going to do enough about it fast enough - we've made that clear.  At the same time, I also think there is a real and fundamental difference between doing nothing and doing many things to ease the suffering.  Human costs are very different in different scenarios.  So the question becomes - what can we do to make people's lives better in the future we are building for ourselves?  How can we begin to imagine a different future, starting from the people we are, not the people we wish we were?</p> <p>Sharon</p> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Thu, 08/02/2012 - 08:43</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/uncategorized" hreflang="en">Uncategorized</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/belief" hreflang="en">belief</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/bill-mckibben" hreflang="en">bill mckibben</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/peak-oil" hreflang="en">Peak Oil</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886933" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343912713"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Climate change is happening here and now, no question. It seems like nothing will be done until it is far too late. The first places affected by climate change will be poor island nations. Few Americans care about poor people, especially poor foreigners. Most people seem too absorbed in their own problems to worry about something as huge and overwhelming as Global Warming.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886933&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VIjI2B_j2p00PC5-xfXFP16NfTPU3xwfYzXa61D41Ks"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Connie Murray (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886933">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886934" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343913074"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's a solution, just find an energy source which is cheaper, more plentiful, and more convenient that fossil fuels. Not carbon taxes which are designed to hurt the poor, or complex Cap&amp;trade schemes which the EU has demonstrated to be the most corrupt commodity market on earth today. Just find something better than fossil fuels, once this is found people will switch to the new energy source. I'm sure its easy.</p> <p>Wind and solar need heavy subsidies and are not cheap, nor plentiful, nor convenient. Where I live wind and solar enjoy big subsidies from people like me, I'm not happy to subsidize my neighbors wind turbine only to see it come crashing down during a gale last year. I paid for that.</p> <p>Or rooftop solar, where another neighbor climbed on the roof to clean the panels of snow, only to slide off and smash himself on the sidewalk. I paid for that too. </p> <p>I'm not happy about how the left seems to be managing my money, especially when it comes to energy related issues, like subsidies for electric cars. Where people buy the car, recieve the subsidy, then return the car and keep the subsidy.</p> <p>No wonder the right has gotten pissed off.</p> <p>Find a better energy source than fossil fuels and all of this idiocy can go away. Please.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886934&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oqtGIMvbJKD0IPNVkEvbVT-YTJkyiIDvwlKj6_KNg-M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">klem (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886934">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886935" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343914467"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Couldn't agree more - so well stated. I'm a libertarian-ish conservative, and although I'm reluctantly coming to believe that climate change is an actual fact, I've been totally on board the "change our lifestyles" train for much longer, based on many of the reasons you named. Aesthetics, morality, economics. Yes. </p> <p>I'd also add, regarding your second paragraph about the persuasive power of science (or lack thereof) that many people, including me, don't trust that we're getting an accurate view of the science when it's filtered through the lens of a sensationalist, doom-and-gloom media. No, I'm not claiming vast liberal media bias, just that it's sensationalist - and has been known in the past completely to miss the point when reporting science news. For a person who's very ignorant about science, knowing which source to trust is difficult. I need the science explained to me on a basic layman's level, but too often the people who translate into layman's terms do so with a twist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886935&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ilKPYPO2J3Uzy9TvqhtAwUHLfHKym_zz32bDzph3E4I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Katharine T (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886935">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886936" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343917849"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I mentioned a few weeks ago that we have a poster in the dining room of our residential school that says <i>Determine WHAT is right INSTEAD of WHO is right</i> and unfortunately, this is what Bill is somewhat failing to do here. The trouble with taking this tack of looking at WHO is right is that it puts people on the defensive and takes the spotlight off the facts of a situation and puts in on the people involved, their personalities, and other shortcomings. I see people doing this all the time on the Left and the Right. Indeed I have some progressive friends that I largely agree with on many social issues, but they spend SO much time focused on evil, suburban white people, and especially men (even though a bunch of themselves fit the bill) or some other group that they want to paint as good or bad, that they alienate others and take the spotlight off the issues at hand. Similarly, when Mr. McKibben focuses so much on corporations, he also starts down this path of us vs. them.<br /> And that's just not helpful.<br /> In fact, I would say Sharon that one of the reasons you are as persuasive as you are in your writings is that, though you mention groups of people, countries and whatnot, you manage to tone down the divisiveness of your arguments just enough to keep people involved and listening, no matter who they are. Of course you don't manage this completely, but nobody does and when you don’t manage it, it’s often because of the inability of the reader to also focus on the WHAT instead of the WHO, but there’s no need to help more people make this mistake.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886936&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2jESwliTvPfUb3AoquQrAFK2ztGFDWjEvdnG3e2WbHY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Stephen B. (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886936">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886937" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343917743"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Klem, </p> <blockquote><p>Just find something better than fossil fuels, once this is found people will switch to the new energy source. I’m sure its easy.</p></blockquote> <p>It's not easy. Solar and wind and nuclear are the best bets, and to make the switch for transportation you also need good hybrid or electric cars. </p> <p>We're putting a lot of money into researching these already. We'll get there, but it's going to take at least another few years, and more likely another decade or two to even have a chance of making such a transition.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886937&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d4BPPheC2J3HMLgNnBLr8Nar_9CBsbBHmagXizIWkj0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Windchaser (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886937">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886938" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343918138"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm no expert, but the UK's Stern Report which was economically orientated concluded that the modest cost of taking action would soon be outweighed by the costs of climate change.<br /> Your problem in the US is that your politics is rotten to core with "campaign funding." You really do need to re-establish some sort of notion of a government that serves the public interest. Your current position is not "right" and "left" but a corporate kleptocracy hell-bent on running the planet into the wall and seeing who survives. Get a grip! Business is good servant and a bad master!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886938&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0SHJRoVe5PkIY7Q4uFy8Lu57v2iG7HYZiR19EsxvAG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Douglas Carnall (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886938">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886939" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343926422"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let's be honest here: climate change will hurt the poor most. Doing something to prevent or alleviate it will hurt the poor most.</p> <p>Any social change whatsoever involving any kind of negative impact on human welfare will hurt the poor most.</p> <p>Now that that's out of the way, how does klem propose reducing the use of carbon fuels, whose costs are massively externalized (climate change, ocean acidification, and other pollution), without additional pricing?</p> <p>It has to happen somehow to get the job of reducing emissions to near-zero done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886939&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dwPj_D5RJnh2KEnY-qOucT3hEsjQZfEexBdNMvJbBCE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Composer99 (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886939">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886940" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343929387"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Klem,</p> <p>Peak Oil means you're losing your Empire Subsidized high energy life, whether you like it or not. I see no solution to peak oil, and thanks to a billion other people like you in the world, no politically feasible solution to Anthropogenic Climate Change either. We homestead and engage in subsistence fishing, not because we think we can "save the world", but to survive the inevitable collapse that the trajectory of our nation and civilization is heading towards.</p> <p>So, you want that cheap energy to replace fossil fuel? Better develop it yourself, because it doesn't exist in the real physical world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886940&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Mmzu_iD8e0kdB4qrpzd_LSuuQ2K3gZ8ANIjX1ZU2w-o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Glenn (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886940">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886941" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1343999824"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon,</p> <p>I stumble over foregoing government programs to address carbon buildup, and then rely on the political concept of a carbon tax (with the arbitrary buying and selling of regulators, politicians, and special interests) government program.</p> <p>One thing I wait to "catch on", is equating government -- and corporate -- expenditures with the carbon footprint of those expenditures. Taxes collected represent an inflated carbon footprint, creating resources. Taxes then reduce the value of those resources by some portion. When the government re-spends those tax dollars, they create new industries, from health services to munition plants to special interest lobbying efforts to public school grant proposal industries, to exploit those government streams of money..</p> <p>The national debt, quantitative easing, etc. appear to generate spurious carbon footprint at the stroke of a pen.</p> <p>Perhaps we can add carbon footprint to discussions of government size, balanced budget, and expenditures?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886941&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vp7F7qumg76NAw2xslKB7en5IqF3DRKgMLq_Q78j90E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brad K. (not verified)</span> on 03 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886941">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886942" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344179740"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The only people i know of who have disputed that climate changes is Michael Mann whose Hockey stick originally proclaimed there had been no change for at least 1,000 years, and the IPCC &amp; allies who enthusiastically endorsed this.</p> <p>Of course climate changes. The Medieval warm period was warmer than now and the Climate optimum (pre 5000BC) considerably so.</p> <p>The question is whether Catastrophic Anthropogenic Glogal Warming (CAGW) is unambiguously happening. Whether the 0.5C a decade from 1979 which Hansen promised has happened (It hasn't); &amp; whether the measurements are entirely trustworthy (they aren't - see WattsUp); and whether the alarmists have a record of telling the truth or lying (lying - see climategate, Himalyaygate even Al Gore's lies etc etc); and whether previous prophecies have been credible (again no - see all the prophecies of more hurricanes and both wetter and drier weather); and whether there is any evidence for the overwhelming positive feedback effects needed to turn a fraction of a degree warming into the prophesised 3C, 5C 6C, 30C</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886942&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="V2V4jgTm3LkFzuL6WChrfqMgnWyefR19s-rHZLinUBc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886942">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886943" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344180782"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The only people who denied climate change are Michael Mann, with his Hockey Stick which originally showed flatlining for the last 1,000 years, the IPCC, who used it as their poster, and those who supported them.</p> <p>Nobody sensibile believes these deniers. The climate has changed many times - being warmer than now in the Medieval Warming and co9nsiderably warmer during the Climate Optimum pre 5,000 BC.</p> <p>The question is whetehr we are experiencing Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (CAGW) rather than the moderately beneficial sort, or less. On this there is a scientific consensus among independent scientists. Not one single scientist anywhere in the world has been found who claims CAGW is happening and is not state funded has been identified.. On rare occasions when one has been claimed, such as Greg on "scienceblogs" claiming to be an independent climate scientist believer, they have uniformly been proven wrong or dishonest - Greg is actually a government paid assistant anthropology teacher.</p> <p>Regretably suchlying, at evey level, among alarmists is endemic and indeed publicly supported - for example Richard Muller, who recently made a wholly dishonest claim to have been a sceptic but seen the light, was previously on record as praising Al Gore for being such a good liar on the subject.</p> <p>It is possible that there is somewhere in the world, a single alarmist who is not wholly corrupt and has therefore dissociated themselves from those who are wholly corrupt. </p> <p>If so, somebody among the alarmists will be able to name them?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886943&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9nArBL2vbqYO26r5sQG5vz0jnLKJuhMPc8W3xqgLiAg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886943">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886944" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344234575"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;&gt;once the general scientific consensus emerges</p> <p>this is not how science works. 'consensus' is a meaningless term. consensus is a term of faith.</p> <p>as a scientist, your job is not to get other scientists to agree with you. your job is to devise experiments / record observations which clearly prove or disprove a hypothesis.</p> <p>as an example, galileo didn't have the tech necessary to prove that the earth orbits the sun. however, his observation that venus exhibits phases killed the ptolemaic system.</p> <p>at the time, however, 'consensus' still fully embraced a demonstrably false conclusion. </p> <p>given the urgency they claim, one must demand that the climate change scientists release their models to the public for examination and testing. i have a feeling that the code is laughably simplistic. how can one model something (say the atlantic ocean) when one doesn't even know the basic parameters? (ie: how much water is in the atlantic? what's the margin of error on that number? how much water entered the atlantic today? (rivers, rainfall, glacial melt) what was the temperature of today's inflow? how much water did the atlantic contain in 1800? 10,000bc? </p> <p>if you can't answer those questions with any sort of precision, you can't model an ocean. if you can't model an ocean, you can't model global climate.</p> <p>please, prove me wrong. show me your expert on oceans. show me how their models test out. show me their inputs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886944&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k-gGjhH3ptOVQDpSo-HlaQJZVzd_xcpJUCDqvr8C3Qg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">kimyo (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886944">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886945" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344241532"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"show me your expert on oceans. show me how their models test out. show me their inputs."</p> <p>Knock yourself out:</p> <p><a href="http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modele/">http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modele/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886945&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1_oi9_PqeSnxXDoDlpx7kSQHKx6eck8y_Qy_7d9dUCw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886945">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886946" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344247192"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Michael Mann, with his Hockey Stick which originally showed flatlining for the last 1,000 years"</p> <p>An excellent example of a denier rewriting history to suit his rhetorical needs.</p> <p>bravo.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886946&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YAaemZVatxRKKot9yzdmFWR7BF0IkBHmGgrUsB2m0X0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886946">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886947" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344247328"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"One thing I wait to “catch on”, is equating government — and corporate — expenditures with the carbon footprint of those expenditures. Taxes collected represent an inflated carbon footprint, creating resources."</p> <p>Unless they're manufacturing CO2 as their business, they can move to a low-carbon energy infrastructure. Therefore they will pay less tax than someone who is using higher carbon sources for their energy.</p> <p>The business wants ENERGY, NOT CO2.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886947&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o8F1GXlK2e62maVPPsRtUY7oUGSKUOPKyAnxRdzv3so"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886947">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886948" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344252110"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Neil Craig demonstrates intense illogic - </p> <blockquote><p>The question is whether Catastrophic Anthropogenic Glogal Warming (CAGW) is unambiguously happening. </p></blockquote> <p>This framing is intensely, shamefully dishonest. Note the weasel words "catastrophic" and "unambiguously".</p> <p>The question is whether the expected value of the costs of doing nothing is greater than that expected value of the costs of reasonable policies to moderate AGW.</p> <p>In fact, logically, the situation is the exact opposite of what Neil Craig argues here. He argues that the default is to refuse to moderate current behavior and policy until it is "proven" "unambiguously" that "catastrophic" AGW is occurring. With himself as the judge of what is "unambiguous" or "catastrophic", of course.</p> <p>Imagine if, after several weeks of noticing chest discomfort following exercise, Neil Craig spontaneously begins feeling crushing chest pain that radiates to his left arm. Does this unambiguously prove that he is having a catastrophic myocardial infarction ("heart attack") or other serious medical issue? Of course not. There are many other possible explanations. Therefore, by his own logic, he should ignore the situation.</p> <blockquote><p>Not one single scientist anywhere in the world has been found who claims CAGW is happening and is not state funded has been identified.</p></blockquote> <p>Although Neil Craig is probably not suffering from delusional disorder in everyday life, his ideology has caused him to make statements with implied delusional, paranoid rationale.</p> <p>This essentially implies that state-funded scientists are all biased in favor of AGW.</p> <p>In fact, NOBODY "wants" AGW. I wish the denialists were right.</p> <p>Virtually ALL climatologists are state-funded, because there are few specific commercial applications of climatology. They gain nothing by recognizing the high likelihood of AGW. </p> <p>Meanwhile, it is obvious that scientists employed by the petroleum industry are in a biasing situation.</p> <p>When the primary rationale for you position is that "all the least biased scientists, across the globe, are lying in the same way, and a few heavily biased industry figures are telling the truth", then your position is weak indeed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886948&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7uaPyY5bjjnKudtXW5eyotgSapg162QjOZI0kUY8_a8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">harold (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886948">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886949" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344336854"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"In fact, NOBODY “wants” AGW. I wish the denialists were right."</p> <p>Absolutely untrue. Almost every alarmist I know wants AGW to be true, they quietly hope and pray that it is true. And they are not a small marginalized group, just look at last summer’s major hurricane Irene. Remember how the media went nuts over Irene, they were hoping that it would cause immense damage, then they could say ‘its climate change its climate change, be afraid be afraid!’. But Irene fizzled, it caused minor, average hurricane damage. Did you notice the disappointment from the reporters of the MSN? I sure did, they were almost teary eyed that Irene fizzled, they hoped that it would kill people, just like my alarmist friends did. The disappointment on the faces of tv news reporters was shameful. I noticed this because I used to be an alarmist, yes I was an alarmist until a few years ago, and I used to quietly hope and pray for destruction like my friends do. I realize now that most alarmists are chronically depressed, they look into the future and see nothing but darkness and misery, they actually hope that this comes to pass. This is the life of the chronically depressed, I'm not an alarmist anymore, when I look into the future my future looks bright and prosperous. </p> <p>I'm sooo glad I'm a denier now.</p> <p>cheers</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886949&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7zm-QMHqGm8gWoRqe-tleLxsqA_F0TLaBX5IdUyBH_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">klem (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886949">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886950" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344340734"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Almost every alarmist I know wants AGW to be true, they quietly hope and pray that it is true."</p> <p>So you're a mind reader??? Tell us, what is the reason they say they hope and pray it is true, given you can hear them hoping and praying for this.</p> <p>I don't think you realise what you're saying in your haste to pretend that it's all a leftist conspiracy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886950&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8mfIIzPFHfevcOTUxrrOW3U53GnTQp30FNrfAMADw_A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886950">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886951" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344350521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Harold claims that we should acceot CAGW as true until proof, to his level of satrisfaction, has been produced. That is not who science or indeed any form of inteligent behaviour works. The proper assumption is that you should not assume something unusual is happening until there is evidence supporting int. This is know, to scientific literates as the princciple of mediocrity.</p> <p>If Harold hoonestly believes what he is saying he must be publicly on record as saying we ought to build giant spaceships and evacuate Earth immediately in case it gets eaten by a giant mutant space goat (HT Douglas Adams). The fact that there is no evidence whatsoever of such a beast approaching but no firm evidence that it isn't must have led him to say it must be assumed it will.</p> <p>I look forward to Harold, being at least honest if not sensible, provideing links to him having done so.</p> <p>His definition of ctastrophe differs from thjat used by the rest of the human race if he does not define an event destroying a large proportion of the total livlihood of the human race as a "catastrophe", since that is what alarmism is costing and, by definition, if the catastrophe it is meant to prevent (actually ameliorate since alarmists say that even the most rigorous enforcement of Kyoto would hold back catastrophe only a few per cent) is less damaging than the "cure" the cure is no cure.</p> <p>If there is no "catastrophe" then destroying the progress the alarmists wish to destroy is automatically evil.</p> <p>I note that nobody attemmpts to make any factual dispute of anything I say and must assume there is no factual dispute.</p> <p>Wow's claim that Mann's original hockey stick did not show previous flatlining is, of course, another example of the very highest standard of honesty to which he and most alarmists ever aspire and also a total and absolute lie, in the tradition of 1984, that could never be accepted by any person or movement with the remotest trace of honesty. I call on any person supporting alarmist who is nonetheless in some degree honest to tell that he is the liar he obviously is. Or not should it prove there nobody, anywhere, in the alarmist movement who values honesty.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886951&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4vezYfXFt30RiRaHYqX5lUpjkcAZRr_v4cuDQ44NUh8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886951">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886952" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344418092"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, no need to investigate Mann's hockey stick (which Whiner here hasn't linked to so that you won't easily find out he's a lying sack of crap), you can just look on this thread and find out of Howard said "we should acceot CAGW as true until proof, to his level of satrisfaction, has been produced".</p> <p>And that will show that whiner here is a lying sack of crap.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886952&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="epViC0rz8_6o3e2pJVnL9viwTozUGxAp92bSO92MwVs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 08 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886952">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886953" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344427335"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"So you’re a mind reader??? Tell us, what is the reason they say they hope and pray it is true, given you can hear them hoping and praying for this."</p> <p>yes I'm a mind reader, they tell me that they want the next hurricane season to cause more and more damage, so they can claim its due to the use of fossil fuels, that increasing costs due to weather events are all humanity's fault. These are some of the reasons they hope and pray for this.</p> <p>Its not a leftist conspiracy that I'm aware of, I don't see how it could be.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886953&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eoj3GDi-O1XBb-9JspwzWjhzauAxSMlru-1aHqSgor0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">klem (not verified)</span> on 08 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886953">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886954" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344443917"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Really? You read those messages in their mind? Or are you, like all wacko lunatic xtians, making shit up again?</p> <p>"These are some of the reasons they hope and pray for this."</p> <p>Those, though, aren't reasons. They're accusations.</p> <p>Your mom may clip you around the ear, you may BLAME your brother with "he started it!", but that isn't a reason to want to be clipped round the ear by your mom.</p> <p>Your problem really seems to be that you're being blamed, and you cannot handle it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886954&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zcNQiL9WUwIZzUF4eIouuO-4oyK7jYLbrpDAigIXEFQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 08 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886954">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886955" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344516255"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And your problem is that you're way too emotional and you really don't like losing.</p> <p>cheers</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886955&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uqRV6AIDYiCOOBotzrLH8VHiD-9CtgMkRJ1QQ7CuOpY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">klem (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886955">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886956" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344517445"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon has repeatedly said that she will censor gratuitous rudeness substituting for argument but not anything else. A reasonable position, if maintained honestly and one I applied on my own blog when the late disgusting Skip Evans started appearing there, positing obscenities and saying that my not letting them stand proved me a "nazi". Oviously it proved the opposite - that the disgusting Skip was the nazi.</p> <p>In that light I am surprised that Sharon has allowed the equally obscene Wow (arguably slightly more inteligent than Skip in his post mortum state) to use "sack of crap" as a substiture for factual debate.</p> <p>Every single person in the alarmist movement who is not a wholly corrupt animal has already pointed out that Wow is lying when he says the "Hockey Stick" was not flat until it reached the currenmt alleged upward blade.</p> <p>That is, after all why it is called Hockey Stick.</p> <p>That no alaarmist anywhere has actually denounced him thus, does not alter the fact that they must have done so if they are not wholly corrupt animals. It merely proves, beyond any factual dispute, that there is not a single person promoting the CAGW hypothesis who is not personally a wholly corrupt lying fascist.</p> <p>Though I am happy to grant that quite a few of them may achieve intellectual levels considerably above the semi brain dead Wow.</p> <p>Sharon should now ask Wow to apologise for being an obscene liar.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886956&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ACoSYjBRheSI-qEaKT2m-SjWfxDoNbWKP3uUeVcQ2vg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886956">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886957" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344520743"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MBH98 is <a href="http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/shared/articles/mbh98.pdf">here</a>, with the relevant figure being figure 5, on the fifth page. MBH99 is <a href="http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/shared/articles/MBH1999.pdf">here</a> and the relevant figure is figure 3, on the third page. If you think either of them is flat prior to 1850, they you clearly have a rather different understanding of the word to the rest of us. For example, both show a negative excursion of approximately 0.3 degrees in the latter half of the 15th century. Also, MBH99 (which I presume is the paper you originally meant to refer to , as MBH98 does not cover the "last 1000 years") shows a clear long-term negative trend up to 1850.</p> <p>Would you please provide a source for your assertion that "The Medieval warm period was warmer than now"? Presumably you intend this to refer to <i>global</i> temperatures, since you did not include any qualifiers, and I am not aware of any source which could support such a contention.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886957&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="b5Ba2_jKxaWl35KvYhQScw5fKmLidp5tSXXGO4xvbxg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886957">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886958" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344521025"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have a comment in moderation which contains links to both MBH98 and MHB99, so that people can see for themselves exactly how "flat" those reconstructions are... However, I am aware that Sharon is rather busy right now and so is not moderating this blog full time. Unlike certain other individuals, I am not going to assume that moderation delays imply some nefarious purpose. Some people actually do have better things to do than babysit a blog 24/7...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886958&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BkYQ1XJQ62afxYYzya0GbwbjxuezyeVJth3Z-hUI46g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886958">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886959" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344522034"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dunc, you note that neither denialist have bothered with any links.</p> <p>This is because they know they're lying through their back teeth.</p> <p>But, for them, this is a Holy War, and anything done in the defence of neoconservatism is not only right, but mandatory.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886959&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4WUmaOUO97va1_vWt4Z_gNGf8UVn3mLGFlTMJzq-HXg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886959">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886960" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344522823"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm quite deliberately avoiding speculating as to either their motivations or honesty. It will do no good, and I prefer not to sink to the level of accusing those I disagree with of deliberate bad faith. Whilst I have <i>more</i> than enough history with Mr Craig to have formed a very distinct impression of him, I feel that diverting the discussion to anything other than clearly demonstrable facts is unlikely to improve the quality of the debate.</p> <p>Whilst we wait for Sharon to dig my post out of moderation (and I accept that it could well be a long wait, given all that she has on her plate right now), should anyone be sufficiently interested, both MBH98 and MBH99 are easy to find and freely available in full. Although I must confess that I don't really see why anybody is still so wound up about two papers which are over a decade old and have since been supplemented by numerous more recent (and arguably superior) papers, which confirm the basic results in all aspects.</p> <p>However, I would like to ask Mr Craig whether he can provide a source for his contention that “The Medieval warm period was warmer than now”, as I am not aware of any source which could support such a claim. (Assuming he means <i>globally</i> - which he surely must, given the context and the lack of any suitable qualifiers to his assertion.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886960&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="J2wfgW-eqy-hcpowDqlW8MFc6B13zsrDr2XQTz1arBs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 09 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886960">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886961" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344601049"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dinc I am happy to be able to answer your question about evidence that the MWP was warmer than now, which coyncidentally also mentions the flat Hockey Stick lies that Mann made.</p> <p><a href="http://thegwpf.org/the-observatory/163-mann-discovers-medieval-warm-period.html">http://thegwpf.org/the-observatory/163-mann-discovers-medieval-warm-per…</a></p> <p>I now ask to acknowledge that Wow's claim that the Hockey stick claim had NEVER been shown a straight "handle" for the last 1,000 tears was bioth wholly dishonest and so moronic that no honest or even dishonest but inteligent person could ever have made it. And that, as the refusal of ebery single alarmist, including yourself, proves every single alarmist to be a corrupt fascist parasite with no trace of personal integrity. And apologise.</p> <p>Or else, particularly since I have shown you the distinct couretsy of answering your question, explain what evidence you have that the moronic fascist's claim, which you have supported, was not a lie.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886961&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PxdVUK-y3PJBZ3QMVpjSiq-lVPifqqA68qC7gyJOoLA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 10 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886961">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886962" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344603703"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Your link <i>does not</i> support the contention that the MWP was warmer than today <i>globally</i>. It says: "The reconstructed MCA pattern is characterised by warmth over a large part of the North Atlantic, Southern Greenland, the Eurasian Arctic and parts of North America, which appears to substantially exceed that of the modern late 20th century (1961 - 1990) baseline and is comparable to or exceeds that of the past one-to-two decades <b>in some regions</b>.” [My emphasis]</p> <p>If we look at <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5957/1256.abstract">the actual paper</a> referenced by your link, we find that the quoted sentence above actually continues: "<b>but which falls well below recent levels globally</b>." So I'm afraid that this actually says <i>the exact opposite</i> of what you have claimed, and does so in the plainest possible language. You would do well to check your sources more carefully in future.</p> <p>As for the evidence that MBH98/99 do not show "flat" temperatures for the last1000 years, <i>I linked to the actual papers</i> (my comment above, dated August 9, 3:59 pm). Go and look at the charts. <i>They are not flat</i>.</p> <p>I am certainly not about to apologise to you for pointing out the plain and simple truth, and I am not best pleased by the vile insults you are once again employing against me. However, I am entirely happy that you continue to display your true colours so openly, as there is nothing like someone's own conduct to illustrate their character. So far your behaviour in this thread has consisted of nothing more than misrepresenting the contents of readily available documents and dispensing thoroughly vile accusations and abuse.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886962&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qRw6-NIqvuIjbDrkx-xrUhH97EVImq9aFR_7j0uo6s4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 10 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886962">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886963" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344607521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What deniers say their link proves and what their link proves are only ever tangentially related. They don't bother reading anything because they "know" (just like Watts "knew" that there was an UHI bias in the data producing a warming effect, so he kept looking until he found something that looked a bit like it, then stopped) what it ought to say (i.e. "AGW is false") and don't see any need to spend any time reading the links.</p> <p>So they post a link and say what they think it ought to say and then it's up to the honest people to read and respond to the lie.</p> <p>Which is a lot more work than just making shit up like deniers do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886963&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0KW-AKZJdNKMYg10jY-Xg2xtlFaG06GQu4ZDpt5qm7E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886963">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886964" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344607665"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dunc, sometimes the posts "waiting in moderation" are there because the software went wrong and it's nowhere near where Sharon can see it.</p> <p>Repost it. If the software whines about duplicate postings, then change it enough with filler until it passes.</p> <p>But I would say it's likely invisible to Sharon because the blogging software has gone wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886964&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vF9ykOh5SzJVp9fxXOcMgOu8JFThRwGdt7OlKRqvdNw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886964">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886965" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344650189"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maybe this helps:</p> <p><a href="http://www.prettyfedup.com/pfu/philosophical/whyarepeoplesostupid.htm">http://www.prettyfedup.com/pfu/philosophical/whyarepeoplesostupid.htm</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886965&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S1fKJfo7bCh1NRh5_91jRBM_aBrfsXDzgyTrtangR94"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric the Leaf (not verified)</span> on 10 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886965">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886966" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344771011"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The post I had in moderation has been published - it's the one dated August 9, 3:59 pm.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886966&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0NOqbec6JXlGvwcJqzrPQrY7VqFHK72IWZO3rE0AxOc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 12 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886966">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886967" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344776590"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You are, of course, being deliberately deceitful Dunc. The "in some regions" quote you give does not come from the author of the article but from the fraud Mann, as you must have known. The fact is that Mann produces no evidence of cooling during the MWP in other regions (eg Northern greenland and Australia). The lack of evidence either way from places uninghabited at the time by people able to write is no surprising and in no way whatsoever serves as evidence that anything different there, in either direction, was happening. For any honest science the evidence from the large bulk of the world and the places evidence is available from is conclusive.</p> <p>I accept your contention that the Hockey Sticj "handle" has never been claimed as straight, in the manner of hockey stick handles everywhere, as equally represenung the absolute pinnacle of honesty to which you, or the other alarmists, ever aspire Also wholly abnd completely dishonest. </p> <p>If you have evidence that you or any other member of the movement have been more honest than this please produce it. Note that, as in the case above, not having evidence on every single instance of your life, would not justify my making an assumption that at other times you aspire to lower standard of decency (eg raping and murdering children) &amp; I do not do so.</p> <p>Unless you can point to a "vile insult" rather than a statement of proven fact that | have made about you, you owe me an apology. As well as for claiming I lied. as well as for supporting Wow's lies misrepresentations and abuse.</p> <p>If you ghave any evidence whatsoever that theree is any memberof the eco movement who has thousands of times more integrity and decency that you and Wow display please provide it. If not the default assumption must be that it doesn't exist.</p> <p>So far your behaviour in this thread has consisted of nothing more than misrepresenting the contents of readily available documents and dispensing thoroughly vile accusations and abuse.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886967&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wUoK417rrghRzO3Jry-FpgNllV9oS4q0xxF6YON8Pf0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 12 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886967">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886968" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344779740"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I did not at any time claim that you <i>lied</i>, I merely pointed out that you were (and are) <i>mistaken</i>. Unlike you, I am able to conceive of the notion that people may disagree with me for reasons other than deliberate bad faith. I have been very careful not to speculate as to your honesty or motivations. You, on the other hand, persist in accusing me of deliberate deception.</p> <p>Of course the quotes I referenced come from the published scientific paper which the article you linked to was discussing. The article itself simply does not contain any other statements which relate to the topic under discussion, and even if it did, assertions in blog posts are not generally regarded as "evidence" in the scientific sense.</p> <p>The rest of your jeremiad makes no sense that I can see, and you have repeatedly demonstrated yourself to be either unwilling or unable to engage in reasonable discourse. Therefore I see no point in continuing this discussion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886968&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Xc8exQXJkJrpcphVUYwPqncvF7ta1v7SGqisFh5OZ5M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dunc (not verified)</span> on 12 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886968">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886969" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344855877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How is it that you people can get into heated arguments over whether the MWP was warmer or equal to today? It amazes me that people believe they can arrive at temperature estimations down to the tenth and even hundred of a degree using evidence derived from tree rings and swamp sludge, hardly reliable. C’mon folks, tree rings and swamp sludge are marginally better than witchcraft, what you’re really arguing over is ideology.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886969&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g2FwDUXAMadp88Fr0iT4p5IO33hiYBR9neEqGyGozwE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">klem (not verified)</span> on 13 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886969">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886970" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1344863906"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Possibly because there are $ trilliions at stake and the eco crowd are deliberately using a fraudulant scare story to impoverish humanity.</p> <p>I don't agree Klem that whether it was warmer during the MWP cannot be estimated. Even Mann accepts the the evidence is entirely that it was, even if he personally doubts it is conclusive. The evidence that the Climate optimum per 5000BC was warmer, by a significant margin, is even stronger.</p> <p>However ignoring all that.<br /> If you accept, as you have, that the evidence does not support claims of warming greater than historically, let alone anything that could be called catastrophic with any honesty then you must acept that those making such claims are dishonest and cannot ever, under any circumstances, be trusted - let alone have millions of people impoverished and killed on their word.</p> <p>There may inded be legitimate disagreement on elements of weather. It is the ecofascists who have always said otherwise. It is them who said "the debate is over". It is them who have been caught lying time and again and shown no compuntion about it.</p> <p>I am perfectly willing to have an intellectual debate with anybody who has the intellect and integrity to tom do so. We have seen that there is not a single person in the entire alarmist movement willing to acknowledge the obvious truth that Mann's Hockey Stick was so called because it showed a straight "handle" up to recent times.</p> <p>No person with any knowledge of the subject and any trace of personal honesty could deny that.</p> <p>It follows with inescapable logic that there is not a single person in the entire ecofascist alarmist movement who is not personally a wholly corrupt liar whose word on any subject is worthless. </p> <p>That is merely a matter of fact, and thus is no way insulting to Wow, Donc, Gore, Mann, Hansen or any of the rest of these corrupt scum.</p> <p>If there is any logical or factual error there, klem, I invite you to name it. If there is not, to accept it., publicly. </p> <p>Yhen we can have a non-heated reasoned discussion about what should be done. It is only when facts are unknown or (as with alarmists and creationists) the idealogically committed deny the plainest facts and are uninterested in reasoned argument that reasoned argument becomes difficult.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886970&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N6YA-NSHjKaOHrnXKi82D4lIYa0fY3qaDkK_fNKt2Mc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 13 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886970">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886971" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1345557684"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Klem: <i>Almost every alarmist I know wants AGW to be true, they quietly hope and pray that it is true</i></p> <p>You don't know what you're talking about and you don't know any such people. Nobody hopes for AGW to be real. </p> <p><i>And they are not a small marginalized group, just look at last summer’s major hurricane Irene. Remember how the media went nuts over Irene</i></p> <p>Because the whole media lives and works in the NYC / DC area - it was a hurricane headed straight for them! Why did the media give so much coverage to the DC Beltway Sniper? Why is Mike Bloomberg a nationally-known figure? This is what goes on in their own backyards. Duh. </p> <p>Oh, and Neil Craig: even for you, it's really scraping the bottom to cite Watts as a source. Your teleprompter-boy has now had to admit - TWICE - that that scam he cooked up about surface station locations, jet exhausts, parking lots, blah blah blah was false, and that there had been no error in the temperature record at all. Which was kind of the whole point of Watts' online following, such as it was. Reminds me of the Heaven's Gate cultists after the comet came and there really wasn't their much-desired UFO hiding behind it. When you're wrong, you're wrong!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886971&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nGBwJIMEA2euJBJo_ic5A-pplCw0qzxoLOMGbmhrbjw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">TTT (not verified)</span> on 21 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886971">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886972" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346163501"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"How is it that you people can get into heated arguments over whether the MWP was warmer or equal to today?"</p> <p>Takes two to argue. All that's needed is someone to be wrong and INSIST they are right and someone correcting them and you have an argument.</p> <p>However, you're correct, a warmer or colder MWP doesn't do ANYTHING to disprove AGW.</p> <p>"It amazes me that people believe they can arrive at temperature estimations down to the tenth and even hundred"</p> <p>And by rolling a dice 10,000 times I can arrive at a figure of its average roll to 2 decimal places, despite the numbers being integer.</p> <p>But like we've both said: arguing the toss over that is unimportant.</p> <p>Question becomes: why do you do it anyway?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886972&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hX9_IwrShuo6GOvGanRpG0jJR-3dXhCvbkNgsktVvak"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 28 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886972">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886973" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346408714"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Obviously finding the MWP was warmer than now (though not as warm as the Climate Optimum) does do an awful lot to disprove CAGW</p> <p> Wow is, of course, creating a false strw man by suggesting that the argument is about whether there is any anthropgenic warming.. The question is whether there is any at or approaching a catastrophic level - except, of course, that there is not a single "environmentalist" or politician who is remotely honest who claims they see such warming. Certainly not that thieving fascist Obama or any members of his Demonazi party.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886973&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eCyRGQjYN6x4WR8zolXXp07oMdL23FnBFlRKUoHArmg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 31 Aug 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886973">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886974" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346518054"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Obviously finding the MWP was warmer than now (though not as warm as the Climate Optimum) does do an awful lot to disprove CAGW"</p> <p>Even if it had happened it would merely mean that the climate is much more sensitive than 3C per doubling.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886974&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZBV1pBmX_PfoRysGlM2Q8wiMDnIrIkvPLZWC9mWy8Ug"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 01 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886974">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886975" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346518649"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whiner is driving a car at 90mph and sees a pile up ahead. "No need to slow down, there has been no catastrophic collision with this car yet!"</p> <p>What a moron.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886975&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bHtQ93iRWgsOnNenTrClOjrku4OJvJ_uCyLHK0yFGB0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 01 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886975">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886976" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346666078"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Even if it had happened it would merely mean that the climate is much more sensitive than 3C per doubling."</p> <p>Wow that could only start to be sane if you had strong evidence that CO2 had been much higher during the MWP &amp; was causing this "sensitivity based" warming.</p> <p>If you have such evidence you should produce it because no other econazi has.</p> <p>It is claims of yours like this which have caused every single remotely honest supporter of tha warming scam to denounce you as the moronic corrupt lying Nazi obscenity youn so obviously are. Or can you name a single honest warmist who hasn't publicly denounced you in such terms?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886976&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ELGmfi8A_8GymG-DcZhZsiCYI79mYbCxE_g10osfXOw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 03 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886976">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886977" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1346677902"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"if you had strong evidence that CO2 had been much higher during the MWP"</p> <p>Nope, it doesn't.</p> <p>A warmer than normal MWP shows the climate is a lot more sensitive to forcings. Since the forcing of a doubling of CO2 is the same, an increase in response to forcings means that the climate is more sensitive to CO2 doubling.</p> <p>The climate doesn't know why it's getting more energy, it only sees more energy.</p> <p>Higher solar output? Energy.</p> <p>Higher GHG effect? Energy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886977&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_r-y_8FHaj_0-VMlaA8PksTMZ9xCwbplgS8S2Ec8qBc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 03 Sep 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886977">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/08/02/do-you-have-to-believe-in-climate-change%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 02 Aug 2012 12:43:44 +0000 sastyk 63886 at https://scienceblogs.com Do the Hustle https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/05/30/the-hustle <span>Do the Hustle</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>From The Nation, <a href="http://www.alternet.org/economy/155491/where_are_the_missing_5_million_workers_in_the_underground_economy" target="_blank">Laura Flanders has a piece</a> on what happened to all those long-term unemployed people who have given up - with a flattering quote from yours truly (the quote is further along, to give you an incentive to read the whole thing ;-)).</p> <p><em> Look around, it’s much more likely that the officially “unemployed” are busy, doing their best to make ends meet in whatever ways they can. Sex work, drugs and crime spring to mind, but the underground or “shadow” economy includes all sorts of off-the-books toil. From baby-sitting, bartering, mending, kitchen-garden farming and selling goods in a yard sale, all sorts of people—from the tamale seller on your corner, to the dancer who teachers yoga—are all contributing to the underground economy along with the “employed” who pay them for their wares.</em></p> <p id="paragraph8"><em>The “underground” is always with us. For better and often for worse, it’s how marginalized populations tend to survive—often not very well. (Think of the old, the young, the formerly incarcerated or foreign.) In recessions—surprise, surprise—“irregular” employment grows. Consider recent stories from Greece about wageless public “workers” swapping skills and trading food for teaching. </em></p> <p>The story includes the fascinating observation that we're seeing as much off-books, informal economy activity as during WWII under rationing.  While this is bad for the IRS, and often tough for the folks living in the informal economy, one of my main premises is that because the informal economy is both larger and more robust (ie, much more likely to survive in a crisis situation), it is foolish for Americans to put all their eggs in the formal economy basket.  We need to strengthen and diversify the informal economy in the US (the US has one of the largest informal economies in the world, but one of the smallest as a portion of total economic activity).</p> <p>Last year I got a ride back from a talk I gave with a lovely, kind young woman who told me about her and her husband's collection of economic activities.  A combination of temping, dog-walking and making internet sex videos, as well as robust barter, home sharing and sustainability activities made them fairly comfortable in 20-something terms.  They worried mostly about health care - she wanted to have a child, and was hoping that she'd be able to home birth because of the untenable cost of a hospital or birthing center birth.  I hear stories like hers over and over again, particularly among the recent college graduates who have never had full access to the formal economy, and don't seem likely to get it any time soon.</p> <p>It isn't just recent graduates, though, by any means.  Out here in the boonies, living in the informal economy has always been the norm - barter, under the table cash for farm-products, handyman work for cash (presumably unreported - I don't know that, but I'd lay odds), this is how a considerable number of my neighbors make their living.  Indeed, there have been years where barter for firewood or car usage has made it possible for us to get along.</p> <p>A couple of years ago, at a conference I attended, a minister working in low income neighborhoods in urban New Haven laughed at me when I talked about "the informal economy."  He said "Down here, we just call it "the hustle" and everyone has to have a hustle to survive.  We try and get them out of selling drugs, but whether they are watching their sister's kids or driving a cab at night off books, everyone has to  have a hustle."</p> <p>This is the reality of poverty, and it is coming to a neighborhood near you - I actually like "the hustle' way better than "cottage industry" or "work in the informal economy" - its got a good rhythm and you can dance to it - and you may have to, sooner rather than later.  Given that, the key to an informal economy that support the influx of workers from the next major global economic crisis and the one after that is to strengthen it - and get your own hustle.</p> <p>Sharon</p> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Wed, 05/30/2012 - 07:20</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/uncategorized" hreflang="en">Uncategorized</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/alternet" hreflang="en">Alternet</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/informal-economy" hreflang="en">informal economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/laura-flanders" hreflang="en">Laura Flanders</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hustle" hreflang="en">the hustle</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nation" hreflang="en">the Nation</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886576" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338421971"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>We do the hustle quite a bit. My husband is helping a neighbor with his haying in order to put up hay for our sheep next winter. Hay has become quite expensive compared to what it once used to be when we started with sheep.</p> <p>He also shears. He sheared 20 sheep for the two new ewes . He also sheared 10 sheep for a car that needs a little work. </p> <p>I often trade kids clothes with friends. We have worked out a community work party coop for help with projects around the home. </p> <p>Once we pay off some debt out monthly income requirements will be substantially less. So as long as we keep hustlin' our lifestyle should be simple and easier to afford.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886576&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vlhxBxWBmOzYmiroPb3N1ygrChFnJ24vV_0Q7FcHfLI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Karin (not verified)</span> on 30 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886576">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886577" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338477860"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"The informal economy" is also huge in areas without a lot of access to outside stuff, traditionally. When things are expensive, and shipped from far away, you look around first to see what someone else has and doesn't need. Around here it's mostly known as "the transfer station". :) Dumpster diving is not just overlooked, it's actually encouraged. I feel like with the big box stores moving in to my area, we're losing that and it's nice when I see other people having "Transfer station fashion shows" and such.<br /> Someone once said of Fairbanks that only the super rich go to thrift stores, everyone else knows that a better deal can be had at the transfer station. Community support goes hand in hand with this, as people will pass along to friends or friends-of-friends or strangers what they don't need.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886577&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZrgO6z3IayFc_Ne2jgD-lOQCxfJRk16Rm6ZwS4bMjxU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sister X (not verified)</span> on 31 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886577">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886578" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338478302"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"It has a good beat and you can dance to it." Made me smile~! </p> <p>While one of us has (firmly for now), we continually explore ways to "diversify" our economic activities. Not talking about mutual funds or stocks here but rather what relationships do we need to cultivate to maximize sharing, trading, work exchange, etc. Trading work on a farm for food, swapping food for space to grow said food, childcare exchange, garden supply swap and labor exchange. Building this kind of community keeps us connected to others in real, tangible ways and gives us all practice in something other than money exchange.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886578&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HiTvbUcFEC5dq4JGnszojcwZZtDxrO3Un_QaJWmdwFY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lisa Coons (not verified)</span> on 31 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886578">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886579" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338506904"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was just re-reading an anthropology article I had published a few years ago about spirituality, paganism and people's efforts to re-make themselves in a kind of utopian, revolutionary project: <a href="http://anubisbard.blogspot.com/2012/05/i-follow-some-blogs-that-deal-with.html">Witchcrafting Selves</a>. And one of the points I was pursuing was the way in which people trying to disentangle themselves from a culture they didn't want to be a part of (morally and psychologically) -- had to disentangle themselves from the economic relations that kept them wrapped up in the mainstream. It's harsh that so many people are being forcibly and ejected from the labor-for-wage economy against their will -- but that can be a precursor for forming new kinds of relationships - and an exit from our thoroughly dysfunctional system. Silver linings and all that, ya know.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886579&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3Dpt2WzwlDnkrE1m2ca2bPq1Q2MxVIzExNRoTzXisnM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Andy Brown (not verified)</span> on 31 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886579">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886580" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338550049"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon, It's odd but your blog didn't show up in my RSS feed for the past month. I had thought you were on hiatus, and then suddenly a dozen posts showed up at once.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886580&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gwX2SKYd4UpZerxuNVN0YdCYH8IRHrsSfLGk_jK2MNM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Andy Brown (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886580">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886581" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338671330"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bartering, trading, exchanging, or whatever terminolgy you choose, is a great way to get to know your community better. It can be of great benefit to know what goods and services are available within walking distance of your own home.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886581&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QU2WueTxf5HiKbb-op6w5FpxhUJnDyxfStqrIltsw4w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gen (not verified)</span> on 02 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886581">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/05/30/the-hustle%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 30 May 2012 11:20:28 +0000 sastyk 63862 at https://scienceblogs.com So, You Know You ARE the 1%, Right? https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/05/23/so-you-know-you-are-the-1-right <span>So, You Know You ARE the 1%, Right?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So with the return of spring comes the return of Occupy, which by and large, is probably a good thing.  OWS deserves some props for drawing attention to inequity, for bringing radicalism back, and for showing a very complacent corporate and political leadership that the people still have bite in them.  Generally speaking I approve of Occupy.</p> <p>One of the things I don't approve of, however, catchy as the framing is, is the "1% vs. 99%" rhetoric.  The reason I don't is that I think it functionally masks really deep inequities - by putting the second percentile together with the 92 percentile,  it implies a fundamental symmetry between people who are truly and deeply poor and those who are more than comfortable.</p> <p>In some ways this can be good - it would be great if Occupy were organically leading those who make 160K per year (top 5%) to work with, live with and see themselves as functionally bonded to those who make less than 33K per year (bottom 50%) but I don't see that happening.  Instead, the implication is "we're all equally screwed by those evil 1% folk."</p> <p>Don't get me wrong, it is a brilliant bit of marketing (because almost everyone is part of the 99%, so there are no real villains except the cartoon rich guy type), and the incredibly inequities that place so much wealth in so few hands are a real problem.  What troubles me about it is that it also actively conceals the way Americans are beneficiaries of just those inequities.</p> <p>Let's look at the 1% - on a world scale.  According to the CIA world factbook (and the IMF releases similar numbers), the top 1% of the world's earners make 34K or more annually (per capita).  The world's top 1% richest people have total assets (that's everything you own) valued at a quarter of a million dollars or more.  My guess is that a not-insignificant percentage of my readers fall into the category.</p> <p>48% of the world's 1% are Americans.  If you were to reduce this to 100 people (always a useful exercise), according to World Bank Economist Branko Milanovic in his book _The Haves and the Have-Nots_ almost every single one of the people in the 1% would come from the developed world - not a single person from Africa, China, Southeast Asia except Singapore, South America except Brazil, India, Eastern Europe or Russia (obviously there are rich people there, but not enough to be statistically significant).</p> <p>Now let's be honest, this conceals a whole lot of profound inequities.  Someone living in an expensive urban housing market like New York City, San Francisco, Boston or DC on 34K is POOR - and they'll find that out in a hundred ways every day when they try to make it - the stress of poverty is real, and trying to take care of a family on that wage in a pricey urban area is awfully tough.</p> <p>On the other hand, American poverty isn't anything like world poverty.  Poor children go to school.  They largely have running water and electricity.  They get medical care - often inadequate medical care, but they do not die in huge waves before age five due to lack of medicine or an oral rehydration syrup that costs a few pennies but is as out of reach as a trip to the moon.</p> <p>A few of the poorest kids in America come and live in my house - these kids often have very little, and suffer a great deal, and it is heart-wrenching.  And yet they mostly have shoes and a reasonably varied (if unhealthy) diet. They may go hungry some of the time - but  do not suffer chronic hunger and malnutrition of the kind endemic to the Global South.  They may have inadequate clothing and shelter, but don't live in mud huts with no clothing at all.  Orphans do not beg on the streets of Atlanta for the most part.  This is no way makes this kind of poverty ok, but it is worth illustrating the differences.</p> <p>In many cases  it is not pure, irremediable poverty, but the inability of their parents to access available services and resource.  This is usually due to mental health problems, lack of education, immigrant status, disability or drug or alcohol addiction.   That children go without is appalling, of course, but not the same as those services and resources not existing.  That is, they may not get eyeglasses because Mom doesn't know she can get a bus voucher and Medicaid to take them, and is afraid to talk to a social worker, they may run out of food because they have over-accessed emergency assistance and don't know where else to go, but they don't run out of food because no one out there could give them any, don't not have glasses because an eye exam is totally unavailable.</p> <p>I think those who read me regularly will get that I'm not only not indifferent to American poverty, I'm horrified by it - my point is a larger one, that those who speak against the 1% are often among them, and that ultimately the equity problem is not primarily an American one, but a world one.  It is the world as a whole that will bang up against a changing climate, the inability to keep growth going and energy depletion.  The days when we could implicitly tell ourselves the happy story that the rest of the world doesn't mind our basic inequities are over - they do mind, and are likely to tell us so, just as Occupy protesters have.</p> <p>Our increasingly tenuous environmental situation makes it clear we can't afford the 1% - on a world scale as well as an American one.  So we will have to turn ourselves to the incredibly difficult process of keeping what is retainable for as many people as possible, and coming up with a new way of life that is vastly more equitable - one that still has many of the necessities of a decent life, but vastly fewer of its luxuries.</p> <p>For most of us, we no more identify with the experience of the world's 99% percentile than the American 1% identify with us.  Most of us, concerned with our comparatively middle class existences don't really see ourselves as having to work with people begging on the streets of Ouagdougou, although perhaps we should.  Most of us want greater equity and fairer distribution of wealth - to the extent that we would like the American 1% to share more with us.  When the question becomes what we are prepared to share with others, it becomes more complex - but this is precisely the question.</p> <p>Sharon</p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Wed, 05/23/2012 - 07:36</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/poverty" hreflang="en">poverty</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/1" hreflang="en">1%</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/99" hreflang="en">99%</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hunger" hreflang="en">hunger</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/occupy" hreflang="en">Occupy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337777548"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The inner disparity between the haves and the have nots in the 99% has bothered me for some time. Focusing on our own country, the difference in the salaries and benefit packages of professionals and relativey high paid public servants seems vast. As an example, in our public school system teachers and administrators make a living wage. Food service workers, school bus drivers and aides often do not. Many also work for an outsourced company which does not pay adequate benefits. As we decry the wealth and power of the 1%, we also need to take a hard look at those who are struggling in out midst and address ourselves to the question of how to redress this obvious disparity. </p> <p>Of course the global scale of poverty and want almost beggars the imagination.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gMguFgGfp2XInHp9EjF98nCR3OQGSa4BRzBksDGK0NM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">janine (not verified)</span> on 23 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337780086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon- as usual; your facts are meticulously straight. And I totally agree with you about the differences between poverty in the US, and in the rest of the globe. I've worked in China- deep in the country, and in cities far from the coast. I think their realities are incomprehensible, until directly experienced.</p> <p>But; I disagree with taking Occupy to task for their rhetoric.</p> <p>It isn't about masking any global realities; it's about fighting THIS fight, on its own ground. I think they're correct and effective to focus their campaign. There is a sharp limit to how much information you can transmit. And if they tried talking about the entire global picture, I think they would very quickly lose efficacy. They're already struggling with the very short media attention span. Widening the scope would, I think, move them immediately into irrelevancy, for the vast majority of us Usacos.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2jL2rjBObwdMo6kp_M0QBno8kJh6iXTXQTrpi0gUywQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Greenpa (not verified)</span> on 23 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337785350"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon, very good point indeed: on a global scale, we can't afford living like we do. However, scale is a complex matter. If you scale it down instead of up: in Burkina Faso, an average beggar in Ouagadougou can be considered part as part of the top 10 % of the Burkina-bé. That's why some people there prefer going to the city instead of staying put in rural areas.</p> <p>Hence, I would argue like Greenpa: keep your things together, one step at a time. </p> <p>It's an achievement to point out the wider perspective, but I'm not sure if this episode of protests could really gain a revolutionary momentum out of it. </p> <p>Just by the way, FYI: US and Canadian mining companies are on the verge of 'developing' the gold mining industry in Burkina. Burkina has officially announced it want's to be the fourth largest supplier of gold on the African continent by the end of this decade. The gap between the 1% and den 99% in Ouaga has always been tremendous - and again, this is going to be a testing ground to the "trickle-down-effect" and "stabilizing through investment".<br /> Bets are open.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mqcTSkR80fB7KwuKetp41dwqyrHQfWKUJ-ZuYyKJXWk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">aeon (not verified)</span> on 23 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337787242"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Each week I spy on my amazing Vietnamese neighbors, immigrants who speak little English, trash can. I'm horrified that every stinkin' week no matter how hard I try they beat me at how little they throw away. She has an amazing garden, that takes every bit of the small yard she has, while I sit across the road on an acre. I always come out feeling like the over consumptive American. Sometimes I feel like we all won't relearn how to reduce until there isn't anything or money there to buy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q7AzRBt1iut2mnfWAwBtHrGaxxyD3IT1A56GpPijglE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen (not verified)</span> on 23 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="78" id="comment-1886554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337856687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Greenpa, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree - I'm not convinced that the 99% slogan really effectively works on this ground in the longer term either - in the very short term, yes, but as a way of getting at fundamental inequity - I don't think so. I agree that complexity is a difficult thing to convey, but I don't agree that that then means that there's no need to address the wider issue of a way of life that has a future. Ultimately, attacking corporations and rich folks (who deserve to be messily devoured ;-)) can't get us to that.</p> <p>Aeon, you are right of course that my picture lacks nuance as well.</p> <p>Sharon</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JUQFt0zQiXWqLpYm5A6AxMExtEbTRc_VdMIgq_EiDPE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a> on 24 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/sastyk"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/sastyk" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337857853"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I read this and my first thought was, NO WAY is my family in the global top 1%. So I did a little digging and I think your math is off or misleading in several ways, and i think it is enough to sink your main rhetorical point.</p> <p>First, the CIA/IMF thing you're relying on must be pretty old, because even if we are talking about personal income, the top 1% globally is higher than that (and was at least as far back as 2006). Maybe the stat you give was true a decade ago, maybe. Second, this is eliding the distinction between personal income and family income, which makes a lot of difference, because especially the higher ends of the spectrum are increasingly likely to be 2 (or even more) income families.</p> <p>The global population is just past 7 billion, so 1% of that is just past 70 million. So the global 1% are the 70 million richest (income earners, or people living in families with the highest family income, depending on what exactly you mean). But even at the individual income level there are at least 40 million Americans that made over 50K in 2010. If Americans are still around 1/2 of the top 1% (as seems plausible) this means that the global 1% mark on individual income has got to be north of 50K. On the family income side, there are 60 million Americans living in families with family incomes over 88K in 2010, so the global top 1% by family income is way over that (seems to be somewhere between100K -200K).</p> <p>You say "Someone living in an expensive urban housing market like New York City, San Francisco, Boston or DC on 34K is POOR – and they’ll find that out in a hundred ways every day when they try to make it – the stress of poverty is real, and trying to take care of a family on that wage in a pricey urban area is awfully tough." That is precisely eliding this same personal/income family income distinction. Someone making 34K in FAMILY INCOME in Boston is going to struggle, but they are also not in the top 1% globally of family incomes (I think, they aren't even in the top 5% globally). Contrariwise, someone who is making 34K in personal income in Boston, is statistically likely to be part of a family that has 2 or more income earners, and thus likely to have quite a bit more than that to support a family with (and still probably aren't part of the global 1%). </p> <p>Rhetorically, most of the OWS folk who SAY they are in the 99%, probably really are in the 99%, even at the global level. Oh many of them probably are in the top 5% globally, most of them are probably in the top 10% globally (as most Americans are), some may even be in the top 2% globally. But to be in the top 1% of the globe as an American, you probably have to be in the top 10-15% of all Americans. So yeah, you probably have readers in the top 1% globally, and there are probably OWS folk there too, but the vast bulk of your readers, and the vast bulk of the OWS folk (and for example MY family), are NOT in the top 1% globally, so your title is wrong. Is global inequality a big problem that is bound up with the system that OWS is trying to oppose? Sure it is, and you won't get OWS folk disagreeing with that I suspect. Should we oppose global inequality as well as inequality in the US? Yup. Is the poverty of someone at say the global 20% mark nearly incomprehensible to most Americans who haven't gotten to see it up close? Sure. If, by some miracle, OWS succeeds would it be tricky to figure out how much of that success to devote to fixing inequality in the US vs global inequality? Sure. Are OWS hypocrites because they "are the 1%" without realizing it if only we take a global view? Nope, or not very often. You are being unfair to try to make a point and I think it is unbecoming of you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h8tbQxJwntbnlELImyeKbCIAPpZir5Ly1e6Wy-iECB4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brian Morton (not verified)</span> on 24 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338636692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Americas capitalizm has stolen global confidence thru greed, fraud and market manipulation.</p> <p>"Wall Street executives now know they face no “moral hazard” from peddling securities globally whose underlying values are worthless (as was the case with subprime mortgage securities) because they suffered no moral hazard when they did....They were even bailed out with public money while continuing to receive their bonuses."</p> <p><a href="http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/09/crooked-capitalism">http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/09/crooked-capitalism</a></p> <p>Thankfully I am invested in Canadian Real estate and own the roof over my head. When our market adjusts I will be fine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="n8vYj1xFaubligdshXzdk9BKBMuDBURNB4aVSM0GtIU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DAVID PYLYP (not verified)</span> on 02 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340354827"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hello Sharon,</p> <p>Your post really shows up some of the downsides of generalisation. Poor people, rich people. 99%. 1%. One of the downsides is they don't allow us to look, as you say, at how complex things really are.</p> <p>I remember going to Mexico as a language student in the 80's from a working class UK background (i.e. not at all 'rich' for the UK but with access to student grants, NHS, and most of the mod-cons of 80s Britain). I knew nothing about Mexico at all.</p> <p>In my mind before I went I imagined a country full of sleepy people with sombreros dozing in front of simple houses in the hot desert sun and lots of cactuses! And mostly poor!</p> <p>I didn't imagine the already quite large middle class and how some of the people I met were financially wealthy in a way beyond my imaginings. And that practically everyone not in the lowest classes would have sirvientes.</p> <p>I was 22. It was an extraordinary eye-opener.</p> <p>Best wishes, Mark</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="46AHAuEE19TthdFXC0Y2GnyNYjZN10pxoW7hziobIrs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark Watson (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/05/23/so-you-know-you-are-the-1-right%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 23 May 2012 11:36:13 +0000 sastyk 63858 at https://scienceblogs.com Fracking and Housing... https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/05/21/fracking-and-housing <span>Fracking and Housing...</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The always-thoughtful Kurt Cobb has a great piece on the intersection between the hydrofracking boom and the mortgage mess:</p> <p><em>One fact ought to tell you all you need to know about the risks faced by homeowners signing leases for natural gas drilling on their property: Wells Fargo &amp; Company, both the largest home mortgage lender in the United States and a major lender to the country's second largest producer of natural gas, Chesapeake Energy Corp., refuses to make home loans for properties encumbered with natural gas drilling leases.</em></p> <p>This salient fact comes from an article (PDF) written for the New York State Bar Association Journal by attorney Elisabeth N. Radow. Written in the form of an even-tempered legal brief, Radow relates one astounding finding after another. Perhaps most relevant to homeowners who either have signed drilling leases or who may be asked to sign them in the future is this: "Signing a gas lease without lender consent is likely to constitute a mortgage default." You read that right. Default.</p> <p><a href="http://www.resourceinsights.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-fracking-mess-is-about-to-make.html">The whole thing is well worth a read</a>, particularly in light of the fact that the play out rates for <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8914">new wells are astonishingly high</a> - much more than the industry likes to discuss. Signing a new hydrofracking lease means an old wellhead on your property in just a few years in many cases.</p> <p>Besides the specific impact on homeowners that Cobb discusses, boom and bust cycles are bad for communities generally. That's the last thing rural upstate New York needs another of - low income local residents forced out as new money flows in - and then more abandoned industrial infrastructure. Because, after all, we ain't got any of that already around here...</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Mon, 05/21/2012 - 04:44</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/natural-gas" hreflang="en">natural gas</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/boom-and-bust-cycles" hreflang="en">boom and bust cycles</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/contamination" hreflang="en">contamination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hydrofracking" hreflang="en">Hydrofracking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/insurance" hreflang="en">insurance</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/kurt-cobb" hreflang="en">Kurt Cobb</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mortgage-mess" hreflang="en">mortgage mess</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337610890"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fracking is something you don't need either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-EiAeRZlUx34xzdQu5otbONU7DRRBn8Ld32RBhMcGYU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Karen (not verified)</span> on 21 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/05/21/fracking-and-housing%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 21 May 2012 08:44:30 +0000 sastyk 63857 at https://scienceblogs.com On Fear https://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2012/03/29/reading-the-stories-of-folks-w <span>On Fear</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/fear1-300x226.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/wp-content/blogs.dir/341/files/2012/04/i-9643ef03f88ba215461e00c8eefcec02-fear1-300x226-thumb-400x301-73463.jpg" alt="i-9643ef03f88ba215461e00c8eefcec02-fear1-300x226-thumb-400x301-73463.jpg" /></a></p> <p>In Mildred Kalish's brilliant memoir, _Little Heathens: Hard Times and High Spirits on an Iowa Farm During the Great Depression_ she writes of the ways that children and adults alike were blindsided by fear in a crisis. For children, the fear was that events out of their control terrified and shook the stable human anchors of their lives. For the adults, events were just is incomprehensible, but they had the added burden that they were supposed to understand what was going on:</p> <p><em>"Though we didn't understand them, we children were seldom protected from the harsh realities of the period, and we certainly sensed that something terrible was happening. Indelibly stamped in my memory is the scene in my Aunt Hazel and Uncle Earnest's farm kitchen one wintry March morning when I was perhaps six years old. There I entered to find all the stalwart adults of my world - Grandma, Grandpa, Mama, my aunt and uncle - still and wordless as statues. It was clear that they had been crying. I had never seen adults cry. I didn't know they could cry. I was struck mute with a fear that grabbed me right in the guts.</em></p> <p><em>Though I was given no explanation at the time, in the days that followed I overheard enough to realize that Grandpa's brother and sister had each lost their farms, all of their machinery and all of their livestock, for reasons that were unfathomable to me. What can a child know of vast economic forces operating on a global level? I was stunned and afraid.</em></p> <p>Grandma and Grandpa's lives were changed forever by the plunging economy. It has taken me a lifetime to realize that the Depression and its consequent tragedies were nearly as incomprehensible to the adults as they were to us children. Since they could not understand what was happening in the world, how could they explain the situation to us? Suddenly, unexpectedly, a family of five was now the responsibility of two old people who had thought they were headed into a comfortable, if frugal retirement. They must have been scared to death."</p> <p>The observation that in many ways, adults are no better prepared to navigate incomprehensible world changes than children strikes me as important. We expect children to be carried along by events, doing the best they can in a world that is often incomprehensible. Adults, however, are expected to know and understand in some measure why their world goes the way it does. But what we see around us at present is a world where increasingly, the stories we tell ourselves about what is going on have nothing to do with anything that is actually happening, and people are lost in a growing sense of fear and confusion - and a searching for credible explanations for why the world they were promised no longer exists.</p> <p>Most of Kalish's story of the Depression is not about fear, and neither are most of the stories that Studs Terkel tells in _Hard Times_ or Jeane Westin tells in _Making Do: How Women Survived the 30s_, all narratives that ask "how did we manage difficult times?" </p> <p>Fear instead lies as an undercurrent to most of them. The memories of that time for most tellers were less about the aching terror that certainly underlay nearly everything but about what you did about it, how you kept on, or didn't, how you went forward or didn't. It isn't that what you felt didn't matter - but what you did mattered more. Kalish in the end is able to describe her childhood as "quite a romp" and a time when they were poor, but mostly didn't feel poor - in a way, that may be the central goal, that our actions transform the meaning of events, even if we cannot control the events, until it simply isn't *that* awful.</p> <p>That's easier said than done, of course. The people I know who have lost their jobs and failed to find another, those I know who are struggling to get along (and I know many, both through my work and in my family and community) are terrified. Along with that terror is a sense that because the collective narrative of economic recovery is trumpeted so loudly, that there is something wrong with THEM if they are still in trouble.</p> <p>Even those who are getting along adequately seem awrae of a sense that this is *wrong* - that the world is simply not supposed to work this way. Whether they blame corporate inequity or liberal taxation or Iran or Israel, the government or (most often) themselves, there is a fundamental awareness of being out of control. </p> <p>The fear gets buried under explanations, hopes and assumptions - that things are in recovery, a job is coming any day, that things will get better soon under a new policy or new political regime. Some people are angry. Others are quietly going on the best they can. Some become depressed, or galvanized in their determination to go forward, but almost everyone is shaken by our times in some way - shaken by the knowledge that things that weren't supposed to happen have happened, that things far away can destroy their dreams.</p> <p>My own immediate family has so far passed comparatively smoothly (and the very fact that on writing these words, some secret part of me wants to knock wood or remove the evil eye or some other superstitious reaction that I don't actually believe in should tell you something about how secure I feel about this ) through the initial stages of our economic crisis, through a world that is warming faster than expected, through the very early stages of decline. </p> <p>I have the advantage of being comparatively well educated, and alert to what is going on in the world. I also, however, truly, in my gut, grasp the sense that things are frighteningly out of my control. That I never really had control of a life managed at a distance by large institutions and regulations is not the point - I could maintain, as most of us did, the illusion.</p> <p>One of the central questions facing us, then, is what we do with our collective fear. What will we do with our fear as it becomes more and more obvious that our lives are never going back to what they once were - or we thought they were? What will we do with our fear as the planet around us passes points of no return? Do we turn on each other? Do we blame some group or nation whether inside or outside? Do we quietly go on as best we can, supporting one another? To what do we attribute our fear?</p> <p>Fear is a powerful and important motivator. I sometimes encounter people who argue that we should not use fear to move others, that it is too dangerous a tool to use. I disagree very strongly about this. </p> <p>Iindeed, I think almost no campaign for major change has ever succeeded without both carrot and stick, without fear and positive solutions mixed together. That is why effective anti-smoking campaigns relied heavily on pictures of diseased lungs and dying 30 year olds with cancer - along with pictures of the new healthier you and the adorable grandkids to do it for. That is why WWII posters needed both the heavy handed children-in-gas masks, "do this or your kids might die in a war" and Norman Rockwell's postulation of the unified family meal that could happen when the boys come home.</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/freedom-from-want-211x300.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/wp-content/blogs.dir/341/files/2012/04/i-16b43116f26ee647bd232c340b471c83-freedom-from-want-211x300-thumb-400x568-73502.jpg" alt="i-16b43116f26ee647bd232c340b471c83-freedom-from-want-211x300-thumb-400x568-73502.jpg" /></a></p> <p>Whether we like it or not, our fear is real and present, and it will be used. I think this may be the most critical point to make - that someone will use our fear, will take it and house it in explanations. They may be true ones, or not, part of the truth or none of it, but it will happen, because our fear is too powerful to be fully quelled. We need a story to explain it.</p> <p>My own feeling is that the best possible hope for a response in which we do not respond to the upswelling of our buried fears by turning on one another is to tell the story of material limits, of our choices and our failures now, to tell it honestly, and to use people's fear as well and honestly as we can. To drive them forward with the picture both of what can be (and by this I do not mean the lies about a better world, but the honesty that good and valuable things can be had in a more difficult one) and also to use the push of fear to move us forward.</p> <p>I wrote this years ago in an essay I called "Scared? Duh!" and reprinted in part in _Depletion and Abundance_ and I think it is not less true now. Just as Kalish's story is in part about how the children and the adults were in some ways caught up in the same terrifying boat of incomprehension, my own sense of what is possible in the face of fear derives from my sense of what is possible in the face of other circumstances. </p> <p>I once told someone that I belong strongly to the "get a grip" school of psychology. This does not mean I diminish real psychological difficulty or that I always have a grip, but I do think that the stories Kalish tells of a family that managed its fear through hard work, commitment and unity are in part the stories we can tell of how to get through our own fears.</p> <p><em>When you become a parent, if you are going to be any good at it, a certain amount of selflessness and self-sacrifice is mandatory. You do not, however, as some people seem to think, immediately become the sort of person who enjoys self-sacrifice and wants to be selfless. The ugly truth is that you are still the same greedy, lazy, selfish person you were before (ok, maybe you aren't, but I am).</em></p> <p>If you were the sort of person who would rather read a novel on the couch than answer the question "what does this spell" 78 times in a row, nothing about parenthood, or even love for your kids will transform you magically into the kind of person who finds having your work interrupted every 2 minutes delightful. I know the world is full of better people than me, but the truth is that a lot of us are still the same ordinarily rotten people we were before we had kids. We just don't have the option of indulging our rottenness.</p> <p>That is, parenthood, for parents who really want to do it right, requires not that you be a good person or that your better nature predominate, but that you suck it up and do the unselfish thing anyway, even when it sucks, even when you don't want to, even when it is damned hard. Some people really are good, unselfish people - and that's great - I envy them and admire you if you are one of them. But it actually doesn't matter very much whether you are one of them or not. If you care about your kids you have to go around pretending to be unselfish most of the time. And it is pretending.</p> <p>The same is true about our present situation. This is scary stuff. There's nothing crazy or unreasonable about being scared by what we're facing. We've got bad news about your future, and it is *appropriate* to feel bad about it. There's no reason we have to be fearless here - frankly, the only way I can imagine being fearless is to be stupid. But we do have to be brave - that is, we don't have to feel brave, like the Mom who doesn't really want to get up for the two am feeding, we have act the right way, to pretend as hard as we can that we have, as the song says, the nerve. And the amazing thing about pretending hard is that sometimes - not always, but just sometimes, you become, as Kurt Vonnegut put it, "what you pretend to be." Or close enough to pass.</p> <p>Which brings me back to fear, and the only antidote to fear I know - good work. I learned in pregnancy, facing labor (all of my labors were very, very, very long) to simply screw up my nerve, accept that the only way out is through, and to go forward into the pain. We're in the same situation now - the only way out of the present and into the future is through. Our only choice is to go forward from where we are, with what we have and who we are. It isn't required of any of us that we not be afraid, or that we don't spend a lot of time grumpily wishing that someone else would do the work and leave us alone with our book. But it is required that while we curse fate, previous generations, darkness, the current administration, G-d and the Federal Reserve, we get to work.</p> <p>What work? Tikkun Olam, if you are a Jew, or even if you find the metaphor compelling - tikkun olam means "the repair of the world." In my faith, that is why we are here - to fix what is broken, repair what is damaged, to improve what can be improved. As the saying goes, it is not required of us that we complete the work, but it is not permitted for us not to try. Or choose your own variation from the ethical principles that compel you most - honestly, I'm not sure it matters, since nearly every ethical system has the same basic idea.</p> <p>I do not come from one of those religous faiths where you put aside the lesser emotions like fear and selfishness - in fact, as far as I can tell, the right to whine is a sacrament in Judaism. So I'd hardly be the person to tell anyone "don't be afraid." Instead, I suggest we all be afraid. </p> <p>Rational fear in response to frightening circumstances isn't pathological, it is appopriate and reasonable. Nor do I suggest any of us fail to whine about it as much as possible - that, after all, is what the internet is for, collective whinging. We might as well take advantage of the technology while we've got it.</p> <p>But let us whine while we hammer, moan while we cook, sigh in outrage while we write and march and yell and build and fight our fear with good work and the pretense that maybe we'll become better people while we're pretending that we already are. There's too damned much to do to do it any other way.</p> <p>In the end, what transformed Kalish's life from one of fear to one that could be called a "romp" was the collective support, the love and strength she and her family derived from one another, the experience of working together to protect what they valued most. That is not an easy thing to do, but it is a necessary one, and the only compelling way I can imagine facing the future.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a></span> <span>Thu, 03/29/2012 - 01:20</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/fear" hreflang="en">fear</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/economy" hreflang="en">economy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mildred-kalish" hreflang="en">Mildred Kalish</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886166" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333121803"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sharon,<br /> A timely piece!<br /> This afternoon at lunch, my wife and I were trying to hash out what a reasonable perspective in these times looks like.<br /> This post quite nicely sums up what I agree is the best perspective.</p> <p>The future will require people to be fighters.</p> <p>Here's a link to a song by Corb Lund which seems to suit:<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeli9NjQiKU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeli9NjQiKU</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886166&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pn7PrXgO5JKtqO1PE14QaMSMfTYsYpyzj88nIB4ATaU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lucas Durand (not verified)</span> on 30 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886166">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886167" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333132922"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It helps to call it what it is: fear. I spend a lot of time just saying I'm being practical, well-prepared, thrifty, etc. Which I am, of course, in addition to incredibly intelligent and farsighted and all-knowing. :) Thanks for reminding me that yup, this is scary, so there's no shame in admitting it, I'm afraid.</p> <p>Thanks Sharon. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886167&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="anSWctx2x250zV9lBMFN5FaqhYQDn1zqJ4UwdM1SyJk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jerah (not verified)</span> on 30 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886167">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886168" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333162113"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My problem comes with trying NOT to be afraid in front of the kids. I want them to be aware of what is going on in the world and to know why we might be preparing, but I don't want them to be afraid of their future. Maybe if they were older.....I'm just not ready to tell them that they can't be cowboys or professional baseball players or that their adult life might be filled with much physical toil because there is not enough oil to go around.<br /> So we raise animals to eat and grow a garden and drink milk from our neighborâs cow and mend our clothes instead of buying more, all in the name of âyou-might-someday-need-to-know-these-skillsâ. I hope we are doing enough to prepare them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886168&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HbF7Akh7SHkmAl8EUdyhE5kmgRP86nyoITH61NRvFkw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elizabeth (not verified)</span> on 30 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886168">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886169" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333179174"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you. I needed that.<br /> Am glad someone else has similar attitudes.<br /> Am glad my wife was able to read this from someone else than heari8ng only me going on about it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886169&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OPG2u8xWdqsK6b8pqw-AdAGuzlXyKFzUA4PGB01jpgQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">simon (not verified)</span> on 31 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886169">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886170" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333183800"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You should read Crichton's State of Fear which gives chapter and verse on precisely how and why those in charge use false scare stories (primarily eco ones like catastrophic warming, peak oil, LNT, pollution reducing life expetancy to 42 by 1990 but some like terrorism and wars of a more coventional sort).</p> <p>These fascists, eco and conventional, are deliberately robbing people of their future so that they can keep stealing from us.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886170&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i44yUvtjJUnUwPNQxJ6SBeVh9EMf3inqFLEs79z5-Uc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Neil Craig (not verified)</span> on 31 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886170">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886171" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333208309"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I got one good laugh out of this when you said that the internet is for collective whining. How true! And it is also for collective laughter, and support, and learning, and moving forward.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886171&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LPiR0fK_L40hROtOjmCrjl9rLioFU-zrrPFaugbAE8I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marvin McLarty (not verified)</span> on 31 Mar 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886171">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="78" id="comment-1886172" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333351174"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Elizabeth, I'm working on a "what to tell the kids" post myself - and I agree, it isn't easy and it is tough balancing act.</p> <p>Sharon</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886172&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3-BTyO9_6dLnjuMH-CQGf2cX3pofcGdCO8O9YU4h-G0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a> on 02 Apr 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886172">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/sastyk"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/sastyk" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886173" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333351207"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The basic premise here seems hard to accept.</p> <p>American farmers during the Depression belonged to either the first of second generation in history, and we to the fifth or sixth, in which it was possible to live at all without constantly being exposed to corpses of various kinds, or living with the constant threat of losing everything. Just read a random sample of Dickens or Dostoevsky.</p> <p>If these farmers were, indeed, as you suggest paralysed by fear, then that suggests something deeply unhealthy about our current cosseted lives, that comfort fatally enervates us after a scant generation or so. That might be worth an article or two! However, having lived through some pretty bleak times in the 1980's and early 1990's in the UK, I find the idea of paralysing fear to be alien to my own personal experience. Grimness, yes, desperation, yes, but fear, no.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886173&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="J3HD1ZzPQ-Sh5-fSBSP5NTEL05N1AG5JdRV0i8g_Cdo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Kemmish (not verified)</span> on 02 Apr 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886173">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1886174" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1333525132"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks Sharon, I have been reading your book Depletion and Abundance and have really been savoring it (and taking many notes). Clearly we need to be pragmatic and thoughtful in making our plans for the future. I have four kids and I'm sure they are tired of my "Apocalyptic ramblings". I don't think I'd have too much fear if it weren't for my fear for my children. I just want them to be sensible, skilled and prepared for whatever might come.<br /> Happy Pesach to you and yours. Pam</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1886174&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CBKlnNBkQuoIlKELT96141ij-c9ugouVLlG6gwQR4iw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pam (not verified)</span> on 04 Apr 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/13825/feed#comment-1886174">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/casaubonsbook/2012/03/29/reading-the-stories-of-folks-w%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 29 Mar 2012 05:20:24 +0000 sastyk 63834 at https://scienceblogs.com