chlorine dioxide

The Genesis II Church holds a secret MMS quackery conference in England

oracknows — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 04:45:59 +0000

The Genesis II Church holds a secret MMS quackery conference in England

Regular readers might have wondered why there was no post yesterday. The answer's simple: A combination of work and having to fly out to Buffalo for the CFI Reason for Change conference, where I'll be on a panel on (of course!) alternative medicine later today. That same combination means that this post will be uncharacteristically brief. I know, I know. When I say "uncharacteristically brief," usually what happens is that I manage to keep things under 2,000 words for a chance, but that's just how I roll.

However, as busy as I am at the moment, I just have to take note of a most happy development in the form of journalists doing their job. I'm referring to the story reported by the BBC yesterday about MMS. You remember MMS, of course. Basically, it's a form of bleach. In fact, it's a form of bleach that is sold as as a "miracle cure" to be ingested or taken as an enema for everything from AIDS to cancer to autism. Indeed, MMS stands for "miracle mineral solution," and, yes, autism quack Kerri Rivera recommends feeding children bleach and forcing them to take bleach enemas.) So, hot on the heals of a major seller of MMS being convicted of conspiracy, smuggling, selling misbranded drugs and defrauding the United States, leading to various MMS autism quacks going silent for a while, the BBC published an expose of the organization most responsible for the "popularization" of this bizarre and harmful alternative therapy 'Miracle autism cure' seller exposed by BBC investigation:

A self-styled "reverend" who claims autism can be "purged" by swallowing bleach has been exposed by a BBC London undercover investigation.
Leon Edwards sold sodium chlorite and hydrochloric acid to a reporter posing as the relation of an autistic child. Combined, the chemicals form bleach.
The BBC has also learned the secret location of a conference to begin in Surrey on Friday to promote the 'cure'.

When confronted with the evidence, Mr Edwards made no comment.

Mr. Edwards is affiliated with the Genesis II Church. That's the church founded by Jim Humble, the originator of the concept that it's somehow a good idea to shoot bleach up your posterior to cure AIDS. Well, actually Humble claims that MMS can be used to successfully treat AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, most cancer and many more of mankind’s worse diseases. He even goes so far as to claim that 5,000,000 people have used MMS and that “hundreds of thousands” of lives have been saved. Unfortunately, it appears that for this function Jim Humble uses more concentrated MMS—a lot more concentrated. More horrifically, Humble bestows his “blessings” on poor people in Third World countries like Haiti. In fact, MMS is actually really nasty stuff, with some of its users suffering serious complications. Humble also teaches his disciples his quackery:

When people leave here they really know how to use MMS for all things, skin diseases of all kinds, colon problems, how to regenerate the liver, how to treat brain cancers, how to treat babies and pregnant women, and how to treat animals from mice to elephants. You will be personally taking MMS while here, spraying your skin with powerful solutions of MMS (but won’t hurt you), spraying others’ skin and hair. You will learn to use sprays, baths, IV solutions, MMS gas, soak the feet, and most importantly, the new protocols that in the country of Malawi have cured more than 800 people of HIV plus 40 cancer cases, 50 of feet and leg numbness, 3 heart disease cases, 13 diabetes cases, and many other diseases and problems.

Yes, you read it right. Jim Humble likes to go down to Haiti and the Dominican Republic and subject the poor there to industrial bleach, just as Kerri Rivera likes to show up at the quackfest known as Autism One to give paeans to the joys of bleach enemas as a treatment for autism. In the UK, the quacks seem to be a bit cagier. The BBC report tells us:

Some of the leading figures in the 'church' have travelled from the US to attend the conference, due to take place in a manor house in Farnham.

Emails obtained by the BBC show delegates have been told to meet at a certain location before being driven to the venue, where they will be instructed in preparing doses of MMS to be consumed orally and taken via enemas.

Through his website, Mr Edwards, who says he is not attending the conference, sold the researcher the one bottle of liquid labelled as 22.4% sodium chlorite and a second labelled as 4% hydrochloric acid.

When the BBC sent the chemicals to Kent Scientific Services, an independent laboratory, they were found to be 57% and 45% stronger than the advertised concentration respectively.

Come on. It's "miracle mineral solution"! If you believe—I mean really believe—it's a gift from God designed to heal everything that ails humankind, you don't really have to be that picky about actual...oh, you know...chemical concentrations, do you? What's wrong? Isn't your faith strong enough? You think I'm joking? Then look at this argument made by spokesperson for the Genesis II Church:

An organiser of the Genesis II Church conference described MMS as a "sacrament" that was "no different than the bread and wine given during a church service".
The spokeswoman continued: "The so-called side effects are far less than [in] drugs sold by pharmaceutical companies.

"We are not selling any products during the church services. We simply conduct our services and share our news and protocols.

"Table salt is dangerous if taken too much [sic]."

Yes, and Botox is a deadly poison that, when administered in very tiny doses, has all sorts of potential beneficial uses that go beyond cosmetic. The difference, of course, is that we know the mechanism by which Botox works and we know that it is beneficial for conditions involving smooth muscle that is too "contracted" or active. We have no such evidence base to support the use of MMS for any human disease, particularly not the way the Genesis II Church recommends it, certainly not for autism, and certainly not with this sort of advice:

Mr Marshall said the ‘medicine’ had been known to make people vomit blood and lose the lining of their intestines, branding its effects "heartbreaking and grotesque".

He also warned that if people at next week’s meeting, which is being organised by Mr Grenon and Mark Kishon, claimed MMS could cure cancer, they would be in breach of the Cancer Act 1939.

Undercover reporters infiltrated a meeting hosted by Mr Kishon in Sussex last month where he was filmed advising a cancer patient that his post-treatment check-ups were "unnecessary".

I haven't seen any reports about the meeting, which is probably taking place now as I write this and is supposed to last the entire weekend. (The juxtaposition of this secret quack meeting with the three day meeting I'm at is a bit annoying.) I will keep an eye out for further news reports. In the meantime, I wonder if they're also telling patients who haven't already had science-based treatment for their cancer not to bother with that pesky toxic chemotherapy or that painful disfiguring surgery. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. How many people have died as a result of relying on Humble's religious quackery instead of real medicine? How many children have been subjected to bleach enemas, causing the lining of their intestines to slough, something that is interpreted as "parasites" dying?

If you don't believe that treating autism with MMS is child abuse, go back and reread a story I wrote two years ago about a woman using MMS on her child with autism, complete with pictures of the lining of the child's colon that had sloughed as a result of the treatment and that the mother proudly photographed as evidence that the "parasites" were dying. Then tell me again that MMS for autism isn't child abuse.

oracknows Fri, 06/12/2015 - 00:45

Tags

medicine

autism

bleach

chlorine dioxide

Genesis II Church

hydrochloric acid

Jim Humble

miracle mineral solution

Miracle Mineral Supplement

Surrey

medicine

When the BBC sent the chemicals to Kent Scientific Services, an independent laboratory, they were found to be 57% and 45% stronger than the advertised concentration respectively.

Well, of course, it was the special offer. Buy one, get 50% more free.

Leon Edwards sold sodium chlorite and hydrochloric acid

Hydrochloric acid. Good grief. And all-natural and nothing like "chemo", right?

Is it normal I feel the urge to arse-kick these charlatans?

It's one thing to have weird beliefs, but when the snake oil seller is very obviously pissing on your shoes and pretending it's raining, strong acts may be required.

OT, but if you get wings while in Buffalo, go to Duff's on Sheridan. Just say "Duff's on Sheridan" to whoever you're standing next to, and they'll know where to point you.

Wow. Just wow. They are going to start treating chlorine dioxide as a sacrament? That is an approach i haven't heard about before.

Very dangerous, very sad that there are so many gullible folks supporting this.

Unfortunately, I watched an Autism One video of Rivera, who when introduced was greeted with APPLAUSE!
Those present at the presentation were asked to put away their phones so nothing could be recorded? I wonder why

Those ATTENDING the presentatoion

PRESENTATION...
these people make me so angry I forget how to write.

"When the BBC sent the chemicals to Kent Scientific Services, an independent laboratory, they were found to be 57% and 45% stronger than the advertised concentration respectively. "

So customers are getting even more of the healthful MMS than they paid for. Geez, you skeptics complain about _everything_.

If the BBC isn't careful, it'll get a reputation for debunking woo.

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/06/11/bbc-panorama-program-b…

@MikeMa

They are going to start treating chlorine dioxide as a sacrament?

The logic, such as it is, goes like this. Create a miracle cure. Since you can't legally sell it, though, create a fake religion and make it part of your sacrament. Then you can provide the "sacrament" to coreligionists. It's a religious practice, not a drug, and so gains some measure of protection. Prohibiting its use would be argued as infringing on the free practice of religion.

Probably would not hold up in a court, but creating a religion out of whole cloth to protect your quackery and abuse is not exactly a novel concept. *coughscientologycough*

@ Todd W

creating a religion out of whole cloth to protect your quackery and abuse is not exactly a novel concept. *coughscientologycough*

We nerds prefer to talk about Hubology or Happyology.

Although Mike Resnick & David Gerrold's take on it in the short novel "Jellyfish" was not bad either:

Frelff Rondimon, who invented Scatology, a whole religion based on the idea that everyone and everything were just so much shit, and had made himself despicably rich in the process.

Why do I fell that the latest description would well describe Humble's religion?

Helianthus@1:

Is it normal I feel the urge to arse-kick these charlatans?

Ideally into a deep ditch filled with lye. Although, anything that helps rid us of Surrey cannot be all bad.

Speaking of religious nuts, has anyone deconstructed Theresa Deisher's new heaping spoonful fetal parts in the MMR vaccine causing autism? http://soundchoice.s3.amazonaws.com/soundchoice/wp-content/uploads/Deis…

So, how well does MMS work on laundry? Could it be a miracle for these tough stains?

In Charlie Pierce's roundup of (mostly political) news from various states, he had an item about a woman dying from an "unorthodox" cancer treatment that involved DMSO, which included this excellent sentence:

"Enlightened medical mavericks" seems to be an overly complicated way of pronouncing the word, "quack."

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35642/paul-lepage-m…

Unfortunately, I watched an Autism One video of Rivera, who when introduced was greeted with APPLAUSE!

Sooooo I was feeling pretty masochistic or something and I looked up what I think might be the video you're referring to. I made it about 12 minutes through... it is honestly horrifying. Apparently, the MMS is meant to be administered "orally, rectally, and in baths." So not only are they feeding their kids bleach and shoving it up their bums, they are also bathing them in it.

Oh, and she talked about some "baby bottle" technique where one "activated drop" of MMS goes into a baby bottle with eight ounces of water, and then you give the kid one ounce every hour. She then went on to specify that you could dilute it even further, but that she doesn't think that's often necessary, and herself only finds that she needs to do it every six months or so.

Wait, what? This is a freaking lifestyle or something? I mean, if MMS was such a great parasite killer, wouldn't it kill the freaking parasites, which would mean you could stop using it? How long are people doing this to their children for? Is this a freaking life sentence?

Probably would not hold up in a court, but creating a religion out of whole cloth to protect your quackery and abuse is not exactly a novel concept. *coughscientologycough*

In the 1980s there was a so-called church in Miami which claimed marijuana as a sacrament. The DEA, of course, took a skeptical view, and was eventually able to prove in court that the alleged church was a front for drug smuggling activities. English law is different, but probably not in a way that helps Rev. Edwards, since England (unlike the US) has an official church.

For those readers who are unfamiliar with UK geography: Surrey and Sussex are counties bordering metropolitan London to the south, and extending from within the M25 (London's beltway) down to the south coast of England. (Kent borders Sussex to the east, and Hampshire borders Surrey to the west.) This area includes the Surrey Hills, an area where many rich people own estates, so we are talking about affluent people falling for this woo, as mentioned in some of Orac's recent posts.

@Chadwick Jones
The laundry might be a bad idea. As the Sodium Chlorite dries, it becomes combustible. Most clothing provides a nice flammable base.

@ Eric Lund:

I expect if we charted woo-fraught presentations/ seminars if most or all of them were within easy driving distance of large cities which are overflowing with excess capital and/ or areas where the rich maintain country houses in plentitude.
See London, NY, SF, LA .

Another totally biased article published by the prestitutes and written by a journalist too lazy to research the facts.
I am not affiliated to the Genesis 2 Church or MMS in anyway - I am a researcher.

How many parents in Surrey have had their children diagnosed with autism and then to be told that the child cannot recover so will be autistic for life? With autism rates now well below 1 in 88 for the UK, at an average cost in care at over one million pound per child, we simply cannot afford to ignore, ridicule or vilify any chance that could help our sick children recover to any degree.

For years I have observed that even the most substantially effected children have moments where they are profoundly better – perhaps only for mere fleeting periods of time. This alone implies there is some interference with neuro-processing which is not always present at the same level. It is therefore conceivable that there are some interfering substances that are contributing to the condition we know as autism. Once you accept this possibility you have options.
In recent studies in the USA over 80% of autistic children had elevated levels of an enzyme called Nagalase – this enzyme is secreted by pathogens with the sole purpose of suppressing or collapsing the immune system. Treated with homeopathic doses of a naturally occurring protein resulted in a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health for 85% of those children.

http://www.la-press.com/initial-observations-of-elevated-alpha-n-acetyl…

There are many other interventions that work like changing the diet, treating parasites, bacteria, yeast & viruses. Each protocol, in most cases, will help the child recover one step at a time.

There is no magic bullet and neither is MMS, but the results are impressive with over 170 children no longer considered or diagnosable as autistic. These children have been charted using the ATEC score – (Autism Treatment Evaluation Checklist) which measures the success of any intervention into autism. All of the 170 children mentioned above would have been on one or more of the protocols

Will you accept the lame-stream view that a child is autistic for life? Or can you accept that within 85% of cases, the symptoms we know to be autism, are in fact treatable and that there is hope for many?

So, how well does MMS work on laundry?

For the secrets thereof you must join The Order of the Immaculate Habit.

Chlorine dioxide is used extensively for bleaching in textile production. It bleaches by oxidation, so, unlike hypochlorite bleaches, it does not produce chlorinated organic compounds as byproducts (same reason it is preferred for water treatment and wood pulp bleaching in paper making). It is less damaging to fibres than hypochlorite bleaches.
It is a very effective disinfectant, so it finds use for things like hospital laundry.

It is also used, as a gas, for full-room disinfection. The concentration required is well below the threshold where there is a hazard of explosion, the latter being a non-preferred means of disinfection.

It really is very useful stuff, but not as "medicine."

Trevor:

Will you accept the lame-stream view that a child is autistic for life?

will *you* accept that you are severely misrepresenting the mainstream view? It is well known by people who are not attempting to exploit or institutionalize the autistic that it is not a condition of stasis, and that many are able to join a mainstream environment. For instance, you would never know my brother had any problems as a child at all.

But are you willing to believe that autistic people can learn and adapt? I'm not sure you are. Becaues then you'd have to accept two difficult proposiitons:

1) that maybe those who got better didn't get better because of MMS, but because of their own ability

and

2) that maybe they don't need to be wasting money on what you're pushing.

I don't know what you're a researcher of, but you do not strike me as a very competent one. Either you don't understand that correlation isn't cuasation, or you have an extraordinarily low opinion of autistic people, such that you cannot believe that it was coincidence that any of those kids got better. (BTW, I've yet to see anyone offer actual evidence of kids getting better on MMS. Just claims, like yours, that the evidence totally exists. But I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.)

Helianthus has already said what I feel. JFC as if 4% hydrochloric acid wasn't bad enough, turns out it's almost twice that concentration along with the sodium chlorite. Congratulations JB Handley, Kent Heckenlively, Kim Stagliano et al. You're a bunch of sick freak child abusers and should be doing jail time for what you are doing to your children and encouraging others to do. As for Kerri Rivera, that skank is so vile I wouldn't shed a tear if she met with some sudden unpleasant demise.

There is no magic bullet and neither is MMS, but the results are impressive with over 170 children no longer considered or diagnosable as autistic. These children have been charted using the ATEC score – (Autism Treatment Evaluation Checklist) which measures the success of any intervention into autism. All of the 170 children mentioned above would have been on one or more of the protocols

Based on testimonials aggregated by the very skank who promotes this rubbish you child-abusing apologist dick. Researcher my arse, you're just another self-aggrandising, science-ignorant jerk.

@MikeMa #16

(jumping up and down excitedly) Exploding pants!

Sorry - I just couldn't help myself ^^*

With autism rates now well below 1 in 88 for the UK, at an average cost in care at over one million pound per child, we simply cannot afford to ignore, ridicule or vilify any chance that could help our sick children recover to any degree.

Your argument above reduces to nothing other than “We have to do something. Bleach enemas are something. Therefore we have to do bleach enemas.”—and you’re quite simply wrong: we absolutely must vilify child abuse, which dosing a child with an industrial grade bleaching agent orally or via enema in the absence of any evidence whatsoever that doing so is a safe and effective treatment for autism spectrum disorders, represents.

Treated with homeopathic doses of a naturally occurring protein resulted in a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health for 85% of those children.

Did you even read the paper you cited, Trevor? If you had you would have found "The doses ranged from 4 to 100 ng per wk and were adjusted based on clinical response, age, body weight, and the initial level of Nagalase activity."

Those aren't homeopathic dosages.

@ Trevor #18

Anyone telling a parent that their child can't "recover" from autism is not keeping current with the literature - a recent review finds that 3 - 25% of children diagnosed with an ASD will no longer meet the diagnostic criteria as adults. That's as many as 1 in 4 who lose their diagnosis completely - it seems reasonable to infer that the percentage who show significant improvement is higher. That's why bogus and even dangerous treatments seem to work - parents just try one after the other until the kid improves and then ascribes the improvement to whatever treatment they're currently using.

Here's a crazy idea - maybe autistics are human f-ing beings who have good and bad days like anyone else. The fact that a person is autistic doesn't make every single thing they do some kind of pathology.

Oh, and one more thing about the Nagalase paper you cited: the study did not find "a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health for 85% of those children": the authors conclude instead

In this small population, it does not appear that an obvious association exists between the [improved Clinical Global Impression] response and the change in the Nagalase activity (Table 3).

There are many other interventions that work like changing the diet, treating parasites, bacteria, yeast & viruses.

Citation, please, that autism is caused by diet, parasites, bacteria, yeast or a virus.

Citation, please, that MMS treats any parasitic, bacterial, or viral infection in vivo.

Citation, please, that autistic children have any greater chances of being infected by parasites than any other group of children.

Treated with homeopathic doses…

Tell us what kind of 'researcher' you are, that thinks anything homeopathic does anything, or do you not know what homeopathy is?

Oh, and Trevor's one link points to the archive of the 'no longer published here' Autism Insights journal. The one that had Wakefield on the editorial board.

Anyone want to comment on the Nagalase study? To save you time searching, since his link just points to the index, it's here:
Initial Observations of Elevated Alpha-N-Acetylgalactosaminidase Activity Associated with Autism and Observed Reductions from GC Protein—Macrophage Activating Factor Injections (Published on 10 Dec 2012)
http://goo.gl/sWhGbo

I did notice that it didn't describe a homeopathic treatment, unless that was part of the 'standard methods' I didn't reference hop to see. If it did, it would be wonderful to learn that distilled water could have such profound effects.

Last: "parasites, bacteria, yeast & viruses". There have been no parasites found. 'Yeast' is another meaningless bogeyman used with invented 'gut troubles'. If they existed, it would be very clearly documented, and very easy to demonstrate. Science has gotten very good at identifying such things, even if they can't treat them.

The entire premise of tying all these things back to 'gut health' is without basis. so even you're assertion that 'we have to try something' is off track.

Well, there's precedent for anal sacraments, I guess... if Jimmy Osterberg is your kind of preacher.
https://youtu.be/MHuZ8DfUAfU?t=20s

But then, this was a demo for the album that included "Gimme Danger' "Penetration" and "Death Trip"...

If Jim Humble can have a church, Iggy definitely deserves one:

Honey, gotta strike me blind
Somebody gotta save my soul
Baby, penetrate my mind
Honey, I'm the worlds forgotten boy
The one who's searchin', only to destroy

I mean, it makes more sense than this BS, and hey, Iggy's the picture of health at 68!

I commented on the paper above, Narad: the dosage given wasn't homeopathic (4 to 100 ng/week) and the authors found no improvement in cognitive behaviour & health for any of the children treated asociated with reduction in Nagalase activity--much less than in 85% of those children as Trevor claimed.

I suspect he never even read the paper..

I guess Trevor isn't aware of the BS number of children that Kerri Riviera claims to have "reversed" autism. Someone once sent her a bogus e-mail claiming that a child had had his autism "reversed" by MMS (there was never any child and the "parent" was a science blogger testing her). Riviera of course embraced the phony e-mail and claimed that child as another of her "success stories" on her website.

There are not 170 children who have had their autism "reversed" by the bleach. It's advertising, Trevor. It's not true.

And homeopathy is BS too.

Looks like the self-described "researcher" we attracted @18 gets his claimed expertise at the University of Google. Tell whoever sent you to send us better trolls, please. And don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Beyond not being able to find evidence that "over 80%" of autistic children have an elevated level of "nagalase"*, this enzyme is not some horrible foreign invader secreted solely by pathogens - it's produced naturally in the human body.

"The NAGA gene provides instructions for making the enzyme alpha-N-acetylgalactosaminidase. This enzyme works in the lysosomes, which are compartments within cells that digest and recycle materials. Within lysosomes, the enzyme helps break down complexes called glycoproteins and glycolipids, which consist of sugar molecules attached to certain proteins and fats. Specifically, alpha-N-acetylgalactosaminidase helps remove a molecule called alpha-N-acetylgalactosamine from sugars in these complexes."

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/NAGA

Moreover, the only connection I can find between this enzyme and autism (at least, any rationally-based connection) is that in some people who don't produce the working enzyme, substrates build up in cells and may cause autism-like symptoms (apparently most people with this enzyme deficiency a.k.a Schindler disease have
physical abnormalities which can include severe or life-threatening neurological impairments. I don't see where any condition associated with too much of this enzyme has been established.

The paper linked to earlier has a lead author identified online as affiliated with a "wellness center" that recruits autistic patients and promotes stem cell therapy for autism. I would take this (now defunct journal) citation with a mountain of GMO-free Himalayan rock salt.

*In an AOA article about this, Kent Heckenlively refers to the enzyme as "nagalese", which sounds like the mother tongue of the Naga tribe.

Tell whoever sent you to send us better trolls, please

Based on the last two weeks, I almost miss that woman who kept bragging about her gym memberships.

CalliAricle @20

Yep autism often improves on its own.No treatment is ever needed.

No diet or medication ever needed..

Nothing.

These articles and studies are not talking about "recovery".It's more about autism as a treatable condition to be controlled.Ask me,I know.

Don't be ridiculous, Roger. That autism can and often does improve does not mean not treatment is ever needed. Responding to a nuanced point with absolutes misrepresents the original point. Especially since your references are largely to treatments of comorbitidies (oh, news flash, autistic people who have other conditions should have those other conditiosn treated!).

And that treatment is important for many people with autism doesn't mean that MMS is anything other than medical abuse. The most important treatment for an autistic person is *therapy*, where you help them to learn things that other people figure out so easily on their own. Shoving remedies down their throats or up the other end won't magically teach them the social skills other kids have spent the last ten years developing. I realize it's appealing to think you can just give your kid a drug and then it will all be better, but that isn't how it works.

Roger, I don't think anyone here denies that there are co-occurrences with autism. So please don't take it personally when someone makes a statement about spontaneous developments in autistics without intervention.

I'm with Helianthus @1: hydrochloric? If bleaching your insides to death isn't enough, you'll burn them through as well?

I calculate that 5.8% HCl (by volume from concentrated HCl) is pH 0.75. No wonder people are vomiting blood.

And, the last time I was in a lab where ClO2 gas was generated (by mistake), we all jumped up and ran the hell out of the room, until the hoods had cleared it out.

So, Trevor, knowing that, you personally would be willing to drink this MMS solution or breathe MMS gas? Or do you just recommend it to desperate people who don't know how dangerous those chemicals are?

Caution: For those thinking of giving themselves an enema with household bleach to save money, don't do it. That's sodium hypochlorite, while combining MMS components makes chlorine dioxide. http://bit.ly/1MPG0Y4

Better yet, how about not putting either one up your colon.

Trevor@18:

Another totally biased article published by the prestitutes and written by a journalist too lazy to research the facts.
I am not affiliated to the Genesis 2 Church or MMS in anyway – I am a researcher.

You are a fucking cunt*, but I guess you've known that from the day you dribbled down your revolting momma's leg.

When little kids shit out their intestinal lining just so you and yours can claim Great Success, I tend to want to take the entire human race and flush it down the nearest black hole just for the salvation of the rest of the Universe. I mean, I am not a nice person, but next to you I am a fucking saint.

* With massive, massive apologies to the ladies in our midst: I learned that one on a sheep farm, and have been stuck for anything more utterly vile ever since. If you have any more disgusting expletives to offer, suggestions on a postcard please.

Treated with homeopathic doses of a naturally occurring protein resulted in a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health for 85% of those children.

This is the GcMAF grift. The scammers are promoting the stuff to cure cancer, autism, CFS -- all the usual targets. To indicate the level of mendacity involved, Jeffrey Bradstreet (notorious fraud and a regular recipient of Respectful Insolence) is the first author of Trevor's paper, while the third author Thyler is an employee of David Noakes' now-busted GcMAF company.

Which is Trevor employed by?

In an AOA article about this, Kent Heckenlively refers to the enzyme as “nagalese”, which sounds like the mother tongue of the Naga tribe.

I suspect that the grifters are thinking of the Naga snake-deities, and that the whole thing is a nod at "snake oil".

Nick J. @29:

Perhaps I misunderstood your comment about yeast in the gut being a meaningless bogeyman. Overgrowth of yeast in the gastrointestinal tract is very real and can be dangerous.

Here's one reference:

:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3163673/

Hurumm... as longine lurker turned intermittent sharpshooter, I'm a little distressed that our esteemed host hasn't (yet?) cleared my especially salty riposte to "Trevor"... but I imagine he's off busy [i]saving people's lives[/i], or something unspeakably boring like that.

BTW, have I mentioned how I doff my hat at the unimaginable niceness and unswerving humanity of all the regulars here? In the meantime I suppose I'll just have to dream of dear Trevor a*se up, head down, in a bucket of foaming soda. Eh, at least there's still times it's good to be a b*stard...

Apologies in advance for going off-topic with the Nagalase GcMAF scam...

The main players in the grift are
1. David Noakes, conspiracy theorist, thrown out of the UK Independence Party for excessive craziness; focusses on cancer patients as victims. He was trading out of Guernsey for tax-evasion purposes, dealing in GcMAF that had been extracted from human blood products by a chromatography operation in a garage, run by a mate whose relevant experience had been in home-brewing. Before boarding the GcMAF spamwagon, Noakes had been selling DCA, the previous wonder cancer cure that doctors won't tell you about. He's the Immuno Biotech cited in Trevor's paper.

2. Dr Marco Ruggiero. Italian AIDS-denialist,, recently resigned his certificate to practice to forestall having it stripped from him. Now distancing himself from Noakes, and focussing on "Bravo Probiotics"... a form of magic yogurt in which he claims to have found GcMAF -- very obligingly, those fermenting bacteria are producing a mammalian peptide (no-one else has been able to replicate that claim). Ruggiero prefers the desperate-dying-cancer-patient market as most lucrative, but he also promotes his yogurt suppositories for CFS, cadmium poisoning, and of course autism (he spoke at 2015 AutismOne).

3. Bradstreet. Grifter through and through without any pretence at scientific legitimacy. Works with Ruggiero on a couple of other scams (e.g. using ultrasonography to diagnose autism). Also cures autism with stemcell injections, electromagnetic pulse therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, secretin, and industrial chelators. Used to be an exorcist. I am not making this up.

4. The source of the whole Nagalase / GcMAF saga was a Dr Yamamoto who published a series of papers about miraculous cures... mostly since retracted because no-one could find any trace of his patients, or of the IRBs which supposedly approved his research, or evidence that his research foundation was spending money on research. When a paper cites Yamamoto's retracted reports you know it's bogus.

Various other parties are trying to cash in. There's a Jeffrey Ayres (Doctor of Osteopathy and Naturopractic) who set up a GcMAF clinic on Barbados, out of reach of regulatory bodies, hoping to attract cancer tourism.

The handy thing about GcMAF is that it is nowhere precisely characterised... it's a glycosolated polypeptide with a specified molecular weight on a chromatography blot. This has been a boon for the grifters who can announce "Second-Generation GcMAF" or "GcMAF -- our version works!"

I am SHOCKED SHOCKED to find Trevor spamming the same words as "youcanfindtrevor":
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/NEWS/13327413.Church__claims_it_can_miracu…

Words which were in fact taken straight from Bradstreet's mouth:*
ht_tp://web.archive.org/web/20120321084735/http://drbradstreet.org/author/drbradstreet/

The source of "Trevor"'s opinionating turns out to be a dedicated Bradstreet Sycophancy blog:
http://healingautismblog.org/15-vitamin-d-binding-protein-mafactive/21-…

* Wayback copy of Bradstreet's claims because he seems to have subsequently taken them down.

has: As a member of that gender, I wince at the term.

HOWEVER: I also came within a nano-particle of applying it to our HR director yesterday, so I can't throw stones.

Poor Trevor. He must feel like a Japanese giant hornet about now: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/bees_vs_hornets.
My autistic nephew is now 22. I have noticed over the years that he will go along in his routine way for a while and then his behavior will change. Slowly at first but ramping up, he will say and do a few new things, and move himself up to a new level, which then becomes the new routine. We all think it reflects a learning process, when new ideas and concepts take hold. As he's grown he has done some age-appropriate things, albeit in his own inimitable style, things like the subtle acts of testing the limits when he was a grade-schooler, teenage rebellion (though you'd have to know him well to see it), and periodically shedding a few of the baby-level obsessions he still has and replacing them with somewhat more appropriate interests, or ways of satisfying them. He graduated from a public high school one year behind his age. He works in a print shop, doing screen printing and operating a complex embroidery machine. He competes with neurotypicals in figure skating and is an equestrian show-jumper. His riding skills have taken him so far beyond other "special riders" in our bi-county region that this year he will compete against neurotypicals in that, too.
All that with accomplished with love, care,patience, science, and fairly small but regular doses of fluoxetine. No magic bullets. No bleach.
And anyone who comes near him with a bleach enema will quickly find out what it feels like to receive one. And that also goes for his uncle with an autism spectrum condition - yours truly.

Herr Doktor @46 --

thrown out of the UK Independence Party for excessive craziness;

That would appear to be quite an achievement.

That would appear to be quite an achievement.

In the words of an erstwhile party colleague, Noakes is "a swivel-eyed loon whose insane conspiracy theories make the rest of us look as mad as a box of frogs... so good riddance. He should really be locked up in a secure unit."

For all I know, these are terms of endearment in the UK idiom.
To be fair, Noakes was not actively ejected from UKIP; he preemptively resigned (after unsuccessfully seeking its leadership).

"Trevor" turns out to be Trevor Banks (owner of healingautismblog.org), who's been pimping GcMAF through autism / CFS / cancer bulletin boards for years. Works for the company; director of "Cytoinnovations", yet another GcMAF shell company.

Wow. And they call us shills.

@JGC:

I commented on the paper above, Narad

OK, but I haven't commented on this thread.

Trev's website, as hard as it is to read, reprints the long-debunked supposed Johns Hopkins "cancer bulletin" that claims sugar, an "acidic body", stress, negative thoughts, etc. all "feed" cancer.

This was a nice touch in Trevor's offering:

With autism rates now well below 1 in 88 for the UK, at an average cost in care at over one million pound per child, we simply cannot afford to ignore, ridicule or vilify any chance that could help our sick children recover to any degree.

Another fun moment from the Kelli Rivera video: the 72/2 protocol, which I had heard of, I think, but hadn't really thought through. According to Rivera, it means "you don't sleep for 72 hours" so that you can dose your child with bleach every 2 hours. Obviously, the salient bit of information is that the child is not allowed to sleep, and on top of that, is being fed bleach every two hours, and on top of that, the "72/2 protocol" is only supposed to be done when you've already "worked up to" giving the kid oral bleach, bleach enemas, and bleach baths.

I fail to see how this is in any way different from what one might encounter in, say, the basement of the Lubyanka, or Gitmo.

On Trevor Banks' YouTuber account he reveals a degree of MMS-curiosity. So it was not a total digression after all.

Wow. And they call us shills.
Trevor Banks' company (Cytoinnovations) holds a trademark for "MAFActive"... another version of the product, sourced from Ruggiero (according to chatter in the CFS community). Other directors of the company are Lesley Banks Hutchings, and Lynda Anne Thyer.
At one point Lesley Banks was working for Noakes, when his company was called "First Immune", and was industriously shilling its products in any discussion thread anywhere in the bloggosphere that mentioned "autism" ("I work part time as customer follow up for First Immune GcMAF and also monitor the web for mentions of GcMAF"). Trevor Banks is also listed as Marketing Manager for Noakes' company, at a different time when it had a different name, Immuno Biotech.
While Lynda Thyer started out on the staff of Immuno Biotech, then moved to "Macro Innovations" (which was the garage-run extraction facility).

It seems that as Cytoinnovations they are now competing with Noakes' skeezy little operation, but evidently they are still in Bradstreet's pocket.

Through Cytoinnovation, Trevor Banks and Lesley Hutchings run "MAFActive.com", where they emphasise that their product is (nudge nudge) a Food Supplement, We Make No Health Claims, Here are Testimonials of Miraculous Cures. They seem to be targetting the US market and have registered the "food supplement" with the FDA. Grifters gotta shill.

The pair also own VDBP Ltd (i.e. "Vitamin D Binding Protein" -- the same stuff under a different name).

Trevor Banks, researcher indeed. Why do I have the feeling he just won't be back?

* With massive, massive apologies to the ladies in our midst: I learned that one on a sheep farm, and have been stuck for anything more utterly vile ever since. If you have any more disgusting expletives to offer, suggestions on a postcard please.

I will admit to having a double standard in that I do not mind the word nearly as much when it is slung at males; possibly this is due to the influence of a certain hard-drinking foul-mouthed ex-journalist on my young self.

In any case, a c*nt is not a particularly vile thing, and I am surprised that that was the pinnacle of your education in vulgarity on a sheeeeep farm. (I grew up near enough to Montana that I know whereof I speak.)

I mean, [random animal]-f*cker is always a fun template. I am also fond of hdb's coinage "sh!tweasel." Really, any good Anglo-Saxon type swear word combined with something unexpected is pretty fun.

(A girl I was nanny to, who happened to have an ASD, was highly adept at a "clean" version of this, which resulted in some great surrealist insults. "You're a FAMOUS EAGLE!" I was once told.)

They should just go whole hog and establish a church.
Maybe Trev is pissed that Humble did it first. (Well, second actually, after LRH.)

Come to think of it, why would Trevie support and/or promote MMS? Wouldn't it be competition? If a few drops of Humble's magic beach stuff cures everything, why would anyone need to buy Trevie's magic blood stuff?

By jove, Trevie and his blood-shilling gang should be SUPPRESSING any news of MMS much like the "presstitutes" (which is very cute and clever, to be fair) who wrote this blog, as Trevie has stated.

Look, you have to watch this video, because none of you will believe how crazy Jim Humble is without witnessing it yourself. Pro tip: Adjust the playback speed to 4X using settings icon. He takes so damn long to say anything you won't miss anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf3uI73G2ZE

Jim Humble is more than an old coot or calculating fraudster: He's actually nuts. Like, "I was the Burning Bush in the Bible, aliens have implants in all of us" nuts. Anyone know Kerri Rivera's personal email so I can send her this, too (kidding)?

You will learn to use sprays, baths, IV solutions, MMS gas, soak the feet...

I hope someone can tell me what IV stands for because it surely can't mean intravenous. No one would be vile enough advocate intravenous bleach therapy, right? And the "MMS gas" has got to be for steralization purposes like doug said in #19, right? Right?

JP@61

In any case, a c*nt is not a particularly vile thing, and I am surprised that that was the pinnacle of your education in vulgarity on a sheeeeep farm.

I think the fact that our society seems to consider that word the pinnacle of insulting is pretty misogynistic. Not a knock on has, it's really all our faults for giving it that connotation. I can certainly agree with the sentiment that anyone advocating bleach enemas as a cure for autism (or anything for that matter) deserves our strongest words. I'm a fan of the classics, like @sshat. Not particularly creative, but tried and true.

You should also try listening to this interview by Michael Marshall and Hayley Stevens:
http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2014/10/be-reasonable-episode-022-…

It is terrifying. As an antidote you need to listen to the interview with Leo Rebello (and read the comments to its entry), and then listen to how they incorporated it into their comedy podcast:
http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2015/02/inkredulous-episode-033/

capn:

As much as I dreaded opening a Pandora's Box, I Googled "MMS IV" and din't need to look past the first hit:

http://genesis2costarica.org/list-of-uses/intravenous/

I personally have had MMS 1 intravenously quite a number of times including before 1990. In the past and in most clinics even now, MMS 1 (sodium chlorite) is used intravenously without citric acid activation (or vinegar). It is my belief that is a mistake. With activation MMS 1 increases the chlorine dioxide by at least 100 times if not 200, or 300 times. The result has got to be that chlorine dioxide goes deeper into the body when the MMS 1 is activated with the acid (mentioned above).
So I had proven I could take up to 30 drops without reaction by mouth. I decided to find out how many drops of activated MMS 1 I could take (intravenous) without reaction. Being careful, I decided to start out with one drop of MMS 1 and 5 drops of citric acid 10% solution. The first thing I noticed is that there was no pain created in my veins, not this time and not anytime.

Holy hell...there's a YouTube video showing how to self-administer MMS IV at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dNW-pjBgA

These people have serious, er, problems.

Thanks for your short and sweet post on this Orac. I read through the Mom's blog and your 2013 post on MMS as well. It makes my heart ache for these children.

The desperation of these parents combined with the evilness of those willing to prey on such parents makes for a very sad outcome for these children. The church of naturopathy is incredibly dangerous.

@ Garnetstar #39

If bleaching your insides to death isn’t enough, you’ll burn them through as well?

I was thinking more of the hazard of manipulating a bottle of a concentrated strong acid.
Citric acid is bad enough with a pH around 1-2, but your skin could withstand a few drops of it, as any lemon-hacking barman could tell you .
Concentrated hydrochloric acid, now... Laboratory-grade solutions are usually 6 to 12 mol/L, it's outside the pH scale. Plus, it's not called a strong acid for nothing.

I calculate that 5.8% HCl (by volume from concentrated HCl) is pH 0.75. No wonder people are vomiting blood.

Well, small blessings, apparently the drunk version of the MMS protocol is one drop of it, I guess in a standard glass of water.

If we take one drop as roughly 25 uL, into a glass of 250 mL of water, that's a 10,000 dilution. That's why people can drink this mix of bleach/strong acid and still have an esophagus afterward.

Mephistopheles O'Brien already pointed this out in the 2013 thread about MMS. Properly diluted, a mix of bleach/acid is safe to drink.

The operative word is "properly diluted". If these jokers and their ill-informed followers mess up the proportions, e.g. adding like a dash of their stuff into a small tumbler...

Not to mention the protocols where they are using the MMS and acid mix pure or barely diluted. As an example:

I decided to start out with one drop of MMS 1 and 5 drops of citric acid 10% solution.

Side note on the 50% higher than advertised. As a chemistry student, I may have mixed chemical solutions with that high an error bar, but, color me surprised, they generally weren't reliable solutions.
From a security POV, that's very concerning.

The first thing I noticed is that there was no pain created in my veins

Disclaimer, not much of an anatomist myself, but:
I don't think we have chemical-sensitive nerves to tell us there is bleach around.
Well, aside from nerves terminations triggered by chemical burn. But IIRC, these nerves are under the skin, not inside the veins.
In order to fell pain from IV-injected chemicals, you will need the chemicals to have burned through your veins. A bit too late, as warning signals go.

I don’t think we have chemical-sensitive nerves to tell us there is bleach around.
it is as if there was never any evolutionary advantage to having bleach-sensitive nerves through the lining of our circulatory systems.

For clarity:

Not to mention the protocols where they are using the MMS and acid mix pure or barely diluted.

Let's add "purposely" somewhere around "using".

And also, for emphasis:
If you drink/clysterise* yourself something and blood/your innards are coming out, you are doing it wrong.

* from clystère. From the time of Molière's medicine, when all the doctors were rumored to do** was cut (bloodletting) / poison (err, I mean enema) / burn (cauterize with hot irons). Plus ça change...
** well, the acts were generally done by the barber-surgeon on call, or some other lower assistant. No sense in fooling these nice robes with bodily fluids.

Trevor Banks, researcher indeed. Why do I have the feeling he just won’t be back?

Looking at the timing, he seems to have written first of all to his local Surrey newspaper, simultaneously outraged by the reporter's dismissive attitude towards MMS and promoting his own scam as better than MMS. Hence references to "parents in Surrey", while the addressee is "a journalist too lazy to research the facts". Then Trevor realised that his words comprised a timeless encapsulation of wisdom which deserved a wider readership, so he wrapped them up in a burning paper bag and left them on Orac's doorstep as well.
No, I don't think he'll be back either.

I am also fond of hdb’s coinage “sh!tweasel.
I cannot claim credit.

@ hdb

it is as if there was never any evolutionary advantage to having bleach-sensitive nerves through the lining of our circulatory systems.

But but but... Bleach is natural! Our macrophages are producing tons of hypochlorite*, with some hydrogen peroxide to boot. The latter is water with an extra oxygen, that's how you know it's safe!***

* only when destroying some germs, and even so, well-contained in specific organelles. I wonder why**.
** in some auto-immune diseases, chronic inflammation is maintained by white cells releasing the content of these organelles in the targeted tissue.
*** the "extra oxygen" excuse was from a "it's-not-bleach" proponent who showed up briefly in the comments in the previous MMS thread.

Efranat, an Israeli company, believes in GcMAF, and wants to test it properly once and for all, in the hope that it will discover than despite his dubious reputation, the substance does have some positive qualities. ''One doctor set up a company in Guernsey Island that markets containers allegedly containing the material. We bought one of his containers, and couldn't find the molecule in it. We're keeping our distance from these people. We just want to produce and test the material according to the rules.'' http://www.globes.co.il/en/article-cancer-treatment-developer-efranat-r… https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02052492?term=efranat&rank=1 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502120/

Hence references to “parents in Surrey”

I had wondered about that bit of phrasing. Stripped of that context, the phrase suggested someone who was knowledgeable enough about the UK to be quoting autism rates and treatment costs in pounds, while simultaneously being ignorant enough of UK geography to assume that this conference was specifically targeted at residents of Surrey as opposed to people in southeast England (which is geographically compact compared to other English-speaking parts of the world) generally. But if it were a LTTE of some local fishwrap copied and pasted here, his rant makes a lot more sense.

MMS 1 (sodium chlorite) is used intravenously without citric acid activation (or vinegar).

Vinegar! Acetic acid will cause lysis of red blood cells, as anyone who has prepped blood for conventional microscopic white cell count knows. The diluent used contains acetic acid equivalent to about 40-50% vinegar. I don't know what the minimum concentration required for lysis is, but I'd have some serious reservations about IV acetic acid, never mind the bleach. Citrate, on the other hand, merely binds calcium ions and hence is an anticoagulant.

There are certainly things that can cause pain on IV injection. Propofol, a short-acting hypnotic, is notorious for this.

These quacks need to be brought up on a charge in criminal court. There must be something that applies ? administering a noxious substance ? attempted poisoning ? criminal negligence? something. Throw a few of them in jail for a while and see if that helps quiet the others down.

As someone who went through a Mag Sulfate protocol for pre-eclampsia, I can CERTAINLY say there are somethings that will feel like your veins are burning. The 4 gram bolus was pure hell (and I felt like I was on fire). But the 2 gm/hr maintenence drip was only purgatory. It hurts!

I can't imagine anything (and I'm hoping the bleach solution is too dilute) more traumatizing to a child - autistic or not - to be given IVs when they are not sick and then have a burning feeling in your arm that HURTS and your parents are happy you are "responding to therapy"!

(and at least at the time, I was a verbal adult, who understood the need for the treatment....STILL didn't stop my bitching about it! :) )

I can’t imagine anything (and I’m hoping the bleach solution is too dilute) more traumatizing to a child – autistic or not – to be given IVs when they are not sick and then have a burning feeling in your arm that HURTS and your parents are happy you are “responding to therapy”!

The only way I can figure any of these kids are "responding" to "therapy" in a way which is interpreted as "improvement" is that they have been abused into a kind of broken, resigned docility. It really is sickening.

c0nc0rdance,I knew all this about Humble and his belief in billion year old aliens.Humble is crazy as a loon but Rivera is downright evil.DLC,how about force feeding both of them massive quantities of MMS,full strength,and see what happens.The punishment fitting the crime and all that.

In other anti-vax news...

Dan ( AoA) - although he admits he isn't comparing the movements- says that both Gay Rights and 'Vaccine Safety' advocates " had to battle the overweening arrogance of medical orthodoxy"

." Pan and his pals in the medical industry...may be provoking the Stonewall moment of vaccine injury denialism"

Right as if he can sneakily suggest that atrocities incurred on LGBT people over centuries are similar to his comrades' 'persecution'. by the State.

But he's not comparing the two movements.

I've always speculated that the reason much autism woo is focused upon lower GI 'treatments' - and even why Andy went there as an investigator in the first place- is because parents may have kids who are not toilet trained although they are beyond toddlerhood- this is a huge chore and difficult situation that is often discussed in ( too much) detail by many of their faithful followers. Lets be honest- it happens and it's awful to manage.

OBVIOUSLY kids with ASDs can have real GI issues like anyone else and food preferences/ self-restrictions may exacerbate problems as well- this is not to say that they have a *specific* autism-GI illness ( AJW) or that GI issues cause autism as many believe.

Thus, I imagine that advocates seek out remedies to fix the GI tract so that they will have less work. The TMs have posted articles about 'bugs' ( germs and worms) that persist despite treatment and may become more active when the moon is full ( a post about lunacy by Ms Poppy). Other common treatments include highly restricted diets- GFCFSF etc- and restrictions to vegan, GMO-free and or organic products. Food allergies and microbiome imbalances are frequently mentioned as are those ubiquitous toxins.
In short, it's all about poop.
In more ways than one.

But but but… Bleach is natural! Our macrophages are producing tons of hypochlorite*, with some hydrogen peroxide to boot. The latter is water with an extra oxygen, that’s how you know it’s safe!***

I apologize in advance for this, but someone has to do it:

Two men walk into a bar. The first man says "I'd like some H2O." The second man says, "I'd like some H2O, too." The second man died.

Sarah A, I love it!

I would happily counter with all my chemistry jokes, but it'd be OT. This was a new one to me, and I am gleefully adding it to my collection.

Dan ( AoA) – although he admits lamely asserts he isn’t comparing the movements after spending the whole post doing exactly that

FTFY.

Of course, after the disavowal comes "Pan and his pals in the medical industry around the country, and indeed the world, may be provoking the Stonewall moment of vaccine injury denialism."

Sure thing, Danny. I don't even have the energy for his deranged comments about syphilis.

^ Gerg, however, chimes in with uproarious bafflement over U-shaped curves:

I can’t help but wonder whether these 'brilliant' researchers stopped to account for one thing? Did they consider that within a given sample of kids, due to kids getting diagnosed with autism later as they age, relatively, there will likely be more older kids with autism, and older kids usually have older moms and dads?

@ Narad, no way. I read the original comment but still no way.

I read the original comment but still no way.

It's a thing of beauty.

"Reading through the study I did not find a precise passage that addressed this. I would very much appreciate it if someone who is versed on statistical terminologies would read through this study and inform of whether this basic concept was taken into account."

OO-EE-OO:

"Parental ages, sex and birth year were obtained from birth or civil registers."

“Reading through the study I did not find a precise passage that addressed this. I would very much appreciate it if someone who is versed on statistical terminologies would read through this study and inform of whether this basic concept was taken into account.”

Even more entertaining would be if Marcella Piper-Terry and/or John Stone would help Greggums out with this request.

BTW, despite earlier weird protestations to the contrary here, AoA Gerg is mamesh Canuckistani.

Re comment #87.

Narad -- seriously?

Narad@87
Greg's comment wouldn't be out of place in an Onion article. "In a groundbreaking new study 'brilliant researcher' Greg discovered that a parent's age equals how old they were at the time their child was born plus the child's age." Actually, I suspect Greg is really one of the minions (maybe Narad) doing a parody.

I always find the AoA comment threads good for a quick laugh followed by a deep, deep depression. Here's another gem:

Homosexual community has; I think, visited that intersection of vaccine injury at least twice. One that hurt their hypothalamus - and again when - I believe to my core - the Hep B - had the AIDS virus in it.

So homosexuality is caused by vaccine-induced hypothalamus damage and AIDS was spread by the Hep B vaccine, a vaccine that was apparently preferentially administered to gays.

My apologies - I ticked the notify me of follow ups but did not receive anything and just assumed my post was not published.

Now I see it is....I will respond later once I have spent this day with my lovely children.

Take care truth seekers!

Trevor

Calli Arcale - It is not coincidence that autistic children improve when interventions are explored. I work with parents who believe in hope and as a result turn away from conventional treatments. Most if not all of these parent are intelligent (that is why they question in the first place) and certainly are not ‘vulnerable and easy prey’

Science Mom - 'Researcher my arse, you’re just another self-aggrandising, science-ignorant jerk'. – Brilliant & thank you for that, no reply necessary 'science' mom

JGC - I said in my post I am not affiliated to the church neither am I promoting MSM. Just trying to add some balance to the discussion. Children can recover from autism using many protocols. I have seen reports of children speaking for the 1st time just by changing diet. It happens

JGC - when I spoke to my homeopathic pharmacy they told me 100ng equates to 3x in homeopathic terms. They now produce a homeopathic cream made to those dilutions. I hear it is working very well.

Sarah A - agreed but not with the swearing.

JGC - Yes it did - in this paper Dr Bradstreet used the gci scale and not atec. Improvements in cognitive behaviour and health were noted with a reduction of nagalase.

Johnny - just google it. I beleive homeopathy does work and with less side effects than mainstream medicine from which over 200,000 americans die every year.

Nick J - No parasites found....yeast is just another bogeyman....you cant find what you are not looking for. Homeopathic doses of a naturally occouring protein (100ng) is sufficient to stimulate macrophages. Over 150 research papers have been published demonstrating this fact.

Woo Fighter - 'And homeopathy is BS too.' - I respect your opinion

Eric Lund - I certainly dont beleive everything I read on the internet. I am a researcher and have gathered data from 100's parents using different protocols for their autistic children. All I am saying is that some protocols work a lot of the time.

Dangerous Bacon - Nagalase is an enzyme that occours naturally in the body to break down glycoproteins in our food. Unfortunately this enzyme has been 'hijacked' by cancers and pathogens that then produce this is large quantities to break down the glycoprotein Vitamin D Binding Protein that then leads to immuno suppression. In this way cancers and pathogens are able to grow unchecked.

Garnetstar - I am not affiliated to the church neither am I promoting MMS. What half of that don't you understand?

has - 'You are a fucking c*nt' - Shame on you and your bucket mouth

herr doktor bimler - I am not employed by anyone of those. Your 2nd comment - briliant.
has - 'unspeakably boring??' - just having a fun weekend with my family thank you (bucket mouth)

herr doktor bimler - GcMAF aka Vitmain D Binding Protein is very well documented on pubmed and any other website that deals with research. Why bother riddiculing Bradstreet and Ruggerio and not focusing on the science?

Old Rocking Dave- 'Poor Trevor. He must feel like a Japanese giant hornet about now' love it....happy for you and your nephew.

herr doktor bimler - you do appear to have time on your hands. Blimey, we all have to eat. I am not here to promote any products at all - just facts

Laters!

Dear moderator - why do you allow profanities on this site?

Actually, I suspect Greg is really one of the minions (maybe Narad) doing a parody.

Sadly I don't think so. I think our efforts here a couple of years ago to educate Gerg (so-called because he insisted on referring to me as 'Kerbiozen') in some of the more fundamental aspects of statistics may have back-fired. I remember when I constructed an example table to demonstrate the problem of confounding data - increasing likelihood of an autism diagnosis with increasing age - he carefully went through it, removed all the confounders and then criticized me for not including... the confounders. Unbelievable. That and stridently attacking Madsen et al's use of the notion of the "life-year" that didn't appear anywhere in the paper (he meant 'person-year' which is a perfectly respectable concept).

His current performance seems to be a vague memory of his schooling on RI. Shame it didn't take.

James Peters @ comment 74:
Your comment contained three links which was enough to put it into moderation. You quote the report from Efranat:

One doctor set up a company in Guernsey Island that markets containers allegedly containing the material. We bought one of his containers, and couldn’t find the molecule in it

-- I suspect that they're referring to Marco Ruggiero and his magic yogurt suppositories. He's not actually based on Guernsey but he *was* peddling his product through Noakes' Guernsey operation (until Noakes went toxic).

Maybe Trevor should have just spent the day researching with the lovely children instead of those bunk ramblings.

Trevor did come back and clutching his pearls fiercely.

I work with parents who believe in hope and as a result turn away from conventional treatments. Most if not all of these parent are intelligent (that is why they question in the first place) and certainly are not ‘vulnerable and easy prey’

And yet they allow you, a self-proclaimed "researcher" (read: "I read sh!t on the interwebz") to sell them all manners of snake-oil.

‘Researcher my arse, you’re just another self-aggrandising, science-ignorant jerk’. – Brilliant & thank you for that, no reply necessary ‘science’ mom

But you responded you child-abusing apologist.

I said in my post I am not affiliated to the church neither am I promoting MSM. Just trying to add some balance to the discussion.

Balance? How is promoting the use of bleach in and on (in many cases) non-verbal, special needs children balance? What kind of vile filth of the Earth could blithely call bleach enemas, drinks and baths balance?

I have seen reports of children speaking for the 1st time just by changing diet. It happens

As a "researcher", you've no doubt conducted a properly controlled trial and published the results in a peer-reviewed journal right?

Homeopathic doses of a naturally occouring protein (100ng) is sufficient to stimulate macrophages. Over 150 research papers have been published demonstrating this fact.

And these research papers would be?

Dear moderator – why do you allow profanities on this site?

There is little more profane than peddling snake-oil and promoting child abuse for your own monetary gain yet your comments are going through.

This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwZN1cPfX8

the Red Cross Cured 154 Malaria Cases with MMS since the report has been 'buried' millions have died from this disease.....such a sad, sick world we live perpetuated by morons who know not what they do - or do they?

Goodbye ;)

he Red Cross Cured 154 Malaria Cases with MMS since the report has been ‘buried’ millions have died from this disease…..such a sad, sick world we live perpetuated by morons who know not what they do – or do they?

Goodbye

No they didn't you scum-sucking charlatan.

the Red Cross Cured 154 Malaria Cases with MMS since the report has been ‘buried’ millions have died from this disease…..such a sad, sick world we live perpetuated by morons who know not what they do – or do they?

In your case, it's pretty hard to believe that you don't.

The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) dissociates itself in the strongest terms from the content of the recent Master Mineral Solution newsletter (May 2013) entitled “Malaria finally defeated” and supporting YouTube video. IFRC does not support or endorse in any manner the claims made in relation to this project, and has at no time been involved in ‘clinical trials’ related to malaria treatment.

^^You've had two solid years to research your way to that. And it's not buried at all.

Goodbye

You're promoting the torture and maltreatment of children for personal gain.

FOADIAF.

Unlike most people here, I enthusiastically support homeopathic treatment of autism, "homeopathic" meaning 12C or greater. Children need the most powerful dilutions available. Some magic sugar pills washed down with magic water will surely benefit a child -- and if they don't, there are lots of other sugar pills and vials of tap water, with different labels, that the parents can try.

I support keeping curebies occupied with sugar pills and magic water, so they don't get involved with bleach, chelation, and other harmful "treatments".

Trevor, you are the very definition of a famous eagle. Perhaps, one of the most famous of famously, famed, famous eagles ever to visit this site. Your delusion hurts others and you can't see it. Sorry about the fowl language, with all of our rustic epithets, I fear those fake pearls of yours are sure to be worn down to their plastic substrate in short order.

ann,

Don't you know MMS really does cure malaria but the Red Cross had to suppress the report and "pretend" to disassociate after being threatened by Big Pharma, Bill Gates, the mainstream ("lamestream") media, the Joos, chemtrails, 9/11 and the illuminati.

One of the authors of an anti-MMS website I was reading yesterday (in which Jim Humble himself appears in the comments) pointed out to a supporter that it's rather telling that even the alternative quackpots out there, Mikey Adams, Mecola, Null and their ilk distance themselves from MMS. None of them have ever mentioned or supported MMS. It's too crackpot even for them.

If ever there was something that these charlatans would embrace, champion and promote (and sell), it would be MMS. And yet none of them have ever made a peep about MMS, even when that guy Daniel Smith was arrested recently. That kind of incident, if it had happened to a laetrile vendor, for example, would have provoked outrage in editorials about "health freedom and rights."

The website of the British criminal selling the MMS ("over proof" according to the BBC expose) also sells all the enema equipment needed and other MMS accesories. He proudly proclaims that a baby bottle (to feed a baby MMS?) is BPA-free.

Bloody hypocrites. So homemade bleach cocktails, ordered over the internet, taken orally, via enema or IV are OK but trace elements of BPA worrisome.

These people seriously need to be locked up.

Trevor,
I think you are unused to an audience that fact checks instead of accepting your pronouncements uncritically.

I have seen reports of children speaking for the 1st time just by changing diet. It happens

I have seen reports of statues moving and of people being abducted by aliens too. It happens, the reports, I mean.

the Red Cross Cured 154 Malaria Cases with MMS

Some lies just refuse to stay dead and buried, don't they? The IFRC says it "has at no time been involved in ‘clinical trials’ related to malaria treatment" (see ann's link at #104).

the Red Cross Cured 154 Malaria Cases with MMS since the report has been ‘buried’

Speaking as a member of the Red Cross -- do not attempt to smear us by claiming it cured anything with your monstrous "protocol," you scum-sucking weasel.

I am not here to promote any products at all – just facts

From another of Trevor's websites:

Homeopathic MAF Grade C Sugar Tablets
Produced by Helios Homeopathy in the UK, each bottle contains approximately 30 grade C homeopathic sugar pills to be dissolved under the tongue.

Sublingual S-MAF Atomizer
Each atomizer contains 5.0ml of solution of which 7.5% is Sodium Chloride (NaCl) and 800ng of S-MAF (Macrophage Activating Factor). Each spray contains approximately 30 nanograms of MAF. One atomizer contains enough S- MAF for one to two months, depending on the frequency of administration.

Sublingual S-MAF Drops
One sublingual dropper contains 800ng of S-MAF (Macrophage Activating Factor) in 5ml sterile saline solution. Each drop contains approximately 30 nanograms of S-MAF. One dropper contains enough sublingual drops for one to two months, depending on the frequency of administration.

Full details regarding the Autism Research Initiative and future research initiatives please visit www.gcmafresearch.com

We wish you well!

Lesley & Trevor

Woofighter:

Trev’s website, as hard as it is to read, reprints the long-debunked supposed Johns Hopkins “cancer bulletin” that claims sugar, an “acidic body”, stress, negative thoughts, etc. all “feed” cancer.

Trevor's "healingautismblog.org" is largely a collection of lovingly hand-curated columns from Jeff Bradstreet's operation... including Bradstreet's claims about curing autism with GcMAF, which Bradstreet himself has disappeared from his own site (after Noakes started giving mendacious scammers a bad name).* But it's not *just* Bradstreet; there are some other street sweepings thrown in for variety.

Much of the same material is recycled yet again at "vdbp.info", yet another of Trevor's websites. "Vdbp" being GcMAF under another name. See, for instance, the don't-feed-cancer advice --
http://www.vdbp.info/11/16

* That's why the link to Bradstreet's Nagalase advertisement in "la-press" is defunct in his original comment #18. Trevor copied-and-pasted straight from his earlier material without noticing that "Autism Insights" -- essentially Andy Wakefield's in-house newsletter -- halted and caught fire after its second issue, and now exists only as archives.

Sorry about the fowl language, with all of our rustic epithets

He shrugs off your paltry response.

herr doctor bimler@112
Ahem, "...poultry response."

Oops, my phone autocorrected the good doktor's name.

Trevor:

Calli Arcale – It is not coincidence that autistic children improve when interventions are explored. I work with parents who believe in hope and as a result turn away from conventional treatments. Most if not all of these parent are intelligent (that is why they question in the first place) and certainly are not ‘vulnerable and easy prey’

And how do you *know* it is not coincidence? Come now: you're a researcher! Surely you know that you need to actually test your assumptions?

Interesting that you contrast seekers of alternative remedies with other parents of autistic children by suggesting that only the former have hope. Combined with your protestation that the parents you work with are too intelligent to fall for a scam. This is very telling, because that's exactly how a scam artist works -- it's a very old strategy, so old that it's enshrined in a classic fable: The Emperor's New Clothes. To prevent the Emperor and his advisors from pointing out that the Emperor was completely naked, the scammer told them that the material was simply so fine that only the cleverest people could see it.

Fact is, cleverness has nothing to do with it. Everybody is smart enough to recognize a fraud; the art of the con lies in distracting them away from it. And the appeal to vanity is one of the easiest ways. Seriously, I have read enough tales of con artists now that I *automatically* become skeptical the moment they praise my intellect. The parents you work with are no doubt very happy to hear your reassurance that they are on the right path, that they are very smart, that their hope is not misplaced. But that doesn't mean they're right to trust you. And you have offered nothing substantial to suggest otherwise.

Incidentally, why the quote marks around "vulnerable and easy prey"? You imply that I claimed they were. But I said nothing of the kind. I searched this thread, and you are the only person to have used that phrase, or even the word "vulnerable." I think you may inadvertently have revealed what you really think about them.

If you want to know who is vulnerable here, it's not the parents that you're exploiting. It's their children. The children have no say in what is being done to them, and the reports of any improvement are coming from parents deeply invested in making them better, people who love them passionately and would find deeply repellant even the whisper of a suggestion that what they were doing was harming them. And you think that that's in any way objective?

No. You don't. I think you actually know perfectly well what you are doing, because you are following the playbook too well. You may not know how much harm this is really doing to the children, but I don't think that troubles you, because I don't think you actually care.

I hope you actually meant that "goodbye".

Treated with homeopathic doses of a naturally occurring protein resulted in a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health for 85% of those children.
Homeopathic doses of a naturally occouring protein (100ng) is sufficient to stimulate macrophages. Over 150 research papers have been published demonstrating this fact.

There is some confusion of language here. When people first started promoting the "naturally occurring protein" (or glycosolated polypeptide) as an 'immune booster', they were talking about nanogram quantities, because that was all they could obtain (with chromatography of blood products). So they turned the negative side -- only minute doses available for sale -- into a positive -- "See HOW POTENT the stuff must be, for us to sell you such small amounts!" "Homeopathic" as a metaphor for "very potent".

Then Marco Ruggiero appeared on the scene, announcing that a "Bravo probiotic yogurt" happens to contain trace elements of the same human protein (the supplier of Bravo Probiotic turns out to be one M. Ruggiero, through various shell companies). He also had various explanations for how a protein could be taken orally and boost the immune system without being digested. Apparently there are special cells in the tonsils which absorb it as the yogurt goes down your throat. There are more of the same cells in the large intestine which absorb the protein if you take the yogurt as a suppository. I am not making this up.

Unfortunately, as James Peters noted at #74, other people have tested Ruggiero's product and failed to find the magic protein. In consequence, the websites for Bravo Probiotic -- at least the websites most directly traceable to Ruggiero -- now downplay its supposed content of GcMAF.

Trevor and Lesley have decided to get around this problem the homeopathic route -- by announcing that the *total absence* of any active molecules in what they sell makes it EVEN STRONGER.

Woo Fighter@63
Just watched that video. I suppose that the one positive take away is that bleach is a disinfectant since mixing medication in a glass is almost certaintly nonsterile.

Garnetstar@85

I would happily counter with all my chemistry jokes, but it’d be OT.

We're far enough down that Orac won't mind if you're a bit off topic (I think 20 posts is about the cut off). This thread could use some chemistry humors. Chemicals should be used ti make people laugh, not to abuse children.

Krebiozen@97

His current performance seems to be a vague memory of his schooling on RI. Shame it didn’t take.

Wow. He somehow learned exactly how not to correct for age.

Trevor@95

It is not coincidence that autistic children improve when interventions are explored.

It's not neccessarily a coincidence. As JP pointed out in #80:

The only way I can figure any of these kids are “responding” to “therapy” in a way which is interpreted as “improvement” is that they have been abused into a kind of broken, resigned docility. It really is sickening.

Given that this is the most probable mechanism I choose to believe it's a coinvidence for my own sanity.

I work with parents who believe in hope and as a result turn away from conventional treatments.

And I have friends who work with parents who believe in hope and as a result turn towards. conventional treatment. The major difference as far as I can tell is that your patients want their children to be someone else and my friend's patients just want their children to be the best them they can (ew, both the grammar and the cliches in that sentence were gross).

Most if not all of these parent are intelligent (that is why they question in the first place)...

No one ever said the parents weren't intelligent. In fact, Orac has written more than once on how and why intelligent people are particularly suspectible to woo.

...and certainly are not ‘vulnerable and easy prey’

As Calli Arcale already pointed out it's not the parents but the children who are most vulnerable. That you overlooked that demonstrate that autism biomed is really all about the parents.

Brilliant & thank you for that, no reply necessary ‘science’ mom

Interesting you should say that. I learned about Hitchen's razor in Krebiozen's link in #97. It says "what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Using this, one could say that no reply neccessary to your nonsense. I do it anyways because your particular nonsense is dangerous enough to warrant it (IMO), I'm having trouble sleeping, and I'm a sucker for self punishment.

Children can recover from autism using many protocols. I have seen reports of children speaking for the 1st time just by changing diet. It happens

Surely if you are a researcher you have at the very least some case studies. Anecdotes != case studies.

Yes it did – in this paper Dr Bradstreet used the gci scale and not atec. Improvements in cognitive behaviour and health were noted with a reduction of nagalase.

You misunderstand. There was indeed both a reduction in Nagalase and an improvement as measured by the iCGI. That being said neither the post Nagalese level nor the difference of pre and post Nagalase levels appears to predict the iCGI response (see Table 3 as JGC kindly directed you to before). In other words, both the reduction in Nagalase and the iCGI improvement happened, but they do not appear to be associated. This is really getting down to semantics but I would take issue with "resulted in a reduction of Nagalase and with it improved cognitive behaviour & health" as this implies the two are connected when the paper clearly says they do not appear to be.

All that said, the study, being uncontrolled and non-blinded, was really completely meaningless. Such a study that looks at subjective outcomes such as the iCGI is particularly useless as these are exactly the outcomes that are most susceptible to the biases that controlling and blinding are meant to remove. I'm not saying that the authors were being intentionally dishonest but at the very least ut doesn't speak highly of them as researchs to make such a huge oversight in their study design.

just google it.

I'll say it for Johnny: no. YOU made the claim, YOU provide the evidence.

I beleive homeopathy does work...

A good researcher would know that belief works better for religion than science. Pony up some evidence. I'm looking for basic A&P kind of stuff that demonstrates prior biological plausibility before you start waving any RCTs around.

...and with less side effects than mainstream medicine...

Not surprising. Sugar pills tend not to have many side effects.

...from which over 200,000 americans die every year.

[citation needed]
In the mean time here's a citation of my own. The CDC's “Deaths: Final
Data for 2013”(pdf) p23 says 2,768 deaths for all ages from complications of medical or surgical care.

...you cant find what you are not looking for

But you and yours are looking for them and as Nick J pointed out "if they existed, it would be very clearly documented, and very easy to demonstrate." However, when pressed it's always "imbalance" this or "overgrowth" that. It's much like with the generic "toxins" you need to be more specific.

I certainly dont beleive everything I read on the internet.

Clearly you only believe what agree with the ideas you already had.

Nagalase is an enzyme that occours naturally in the body to break down glycoproteins in our food. Unfortunately this enzyme has been ‘hijacked’ by cancers and pathogens that then produce this is large quantities to break down the glycoprotein Vitamin D Binding Protein that then leads to immuno suppression. In this way cancers and pathogens are able to grow unchecked.

Dangerous Bacon was saying that the link between autism and Nagalase activity is weak to non-existent. In the study you gave, this link is forced through a series of weak assumptions (p32 as labelled, or p2 of the pdf):

In light of the possible involvement of immune
abnormalities, autoimmunity, vitamin D deficiency,
and potential viral persistence, Nagalase screening was added by JB and other physicians to the
biomarker of children presenting for bio-
medical evaluation of autism-related disorders and
co-morbidities.

It doesn't matter right now the effect of Nagalase on pathogens because there is no compelling evidence that pathogens cause autism.

I am not here to promote any products at all – just facts

I believe you meant "...just make assertions."

Chemicals should be used ti make people laugh

I keep saying that, but they took away my Nitrous oxide all the same.

Trevor at #18 obviously doesn't have Wikipedia- Nagalase is an enzyme produced by bacteria and animals (including humans) Lack of this enzyme causes Schindler Disease, which sometimes has autism-like symptoms, and is fatal when it occurs in infants.

Re. Has @ 41, may I suggest the word 'monster' instead? 1) It won't make a page inaccessible in places where internet access is subject to institutional filtration, 2) it's not an insult to women, 3) it's an accurate descriptor for these child-abusing profiteering frauds, who are no doubt diagnosable psychopaths.

That or call them 'cannibals' for eating their victims, though indirectly.

So, has anyone any news about what happened in Surrey over the weekend? Did the local police show up and ruin the quackfest?

As for what should happen to those people, I'll just say it involves large industrial machinery and leaves a bit of a mess to clean up.

As for Trevor, he's welcome to go directly to hell, no need to stop for the security screening first.

Re. 'chemicals that make people laugh,' may I suggest the mix of chemicals that occurs in one of the few herbal remedies that actually seems to work for a few things, namely good ol' cannabis?

I said in my post I am not affiliated to the church neither am I promoting MSM.

And in none of my posts have I suggested you were either, trevor. I instead questioned if you’d even read the article you provided a citation to.

Children can recover from autism using many protocols.

Citations needed: what protocols, and how has it been factually established that they are responsible for the children’s recovery from autism?

I have seen reports of children speaking for the 1st time just by changing diet. It happens

How was it established that their ‘speaking for the first time’ was in fact caused by the change the diet, trevor? It is, I trust, on some basis other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

– when I spoke to my homeopathic pharmacy they told me 100ng equates to 3x in homeopathic terms.

Homeopathy expresses dilutions in terms of "C", not "x". However expressed that doesn’t represent a homeopathic dose, as there is detectable amounts of the initial ingredient present in the final product. Note also that the paper you cited does not identify the dosage as homeopathic.

Yes it did – in this paper Dr Bradstreet used the gci scale and not atec. Improvements in cognitive behaviour and health were noted with a reduction of nagalase

Nowhere in the paper cited does the author indicate improvements in cognitive behavior were noted in any of the subjects (Direct quote: “In this small population, it does not appear that an obvious association exists between the iCGI response and the change in the Nagalase activity (Table 3"). The author also does not note that any improvements occurred in the subjects health.

If you believe otherwise, please cut and paste the section of the cited article where the author offers this conclusion.

Calli Arcale is the heroine of the thread for identifying the freudian slip in Trevor's weaseling:

…and certainly are not ‘vulnerable and easy prey’

Homeopathy expresses dilutions in terms of “C”, not “x”

They do use "X" dilutions in their quackery - it is a dilution by a factor of 10. A 3X dilution would therefore be a factor of 1000, which certainly would leave actual solute, depending on the initial concentration.
In order for the final dose to contain 100 ng, the original solution would have to contain 100 micrograms in the same volume as used for the final dose. Homeoprats never seem too concerned with the starting concentration, which of course doesn't really matter once something is diluted to the point the probability of a single molecule of solute is pretty much zero. To state that 3X dilution yields 100 ng, without specification of the size of the dose and the original concentration, is utter nonsense. (I know, once homeopathy has been mentioned, "utter nonsense" to describe a specific case is redundant.)

The Bradstreet paper also fails to indicate that the drug substance, at whatever dilution, had been succussed--and if it hasn't been succussed it isn't homeopathic.

Got to bang the bejesus out of that thing, preferably (according to Hahnemann) against a leather bound bible.

when I spoke to my homeopathic pharmacy they told me 100ng equates to 3x in homeopathic terms.

Bradstreet et al. were using 100 nanogram doses because that's all they had (their method of obtaining the magic protein is better-suited for detection than for extracting usable quantities). Trevor seems to want to conflate this with the overt homeopathic scam. Go for it, dude!

in this paper Dr Bradstreet used the gci scale and not atec. Improvements in cognitive behaviour and health were noted with a reduction of nagalase.

The paper alternates between describing it as the "Clinical Global Impression of Improvement scale" and the "improved Clinical Global Impression" scale, but ultimately it consist of Jeff Bradstreet telling his clients how miraculously their children had improved -- no objective measurements were involved.

Children can recover from autism using many protocols.

In operational terms, this means that if Jeff Bradstreet has sold you five different protocols and none of them have made any difference for your child -- don't worry, he also offers a sixth treatment!

But I have to wonder, if this paper is really so dispositive, why has Bradstreet scrubbed all posts mentioning GcMAF from his advertising blog? Why has he abandoned GcMAF, and pretends he never promoted it, and is currently back on the stem-cell grift?

herr doktor bimler@125

The paper alternates between describing it as the “Clinical Global Impression of Improvement scale” and the “improved Clinical Global Impression” scale, but ultimately it consist of Jeff Bradstreet telling his clients how miraculously their children had improved — no objective measurements were involved.

This is getting a bit quibble-y but what they actually used was the "improved response format for the Clinical Global Impression improvement scale." Which is actually only half of the iCGI, they only used the improvement component of the scale and not the severity component which is important as a baseline. The iCGI was created in an attempt to improve on the CGI as used in assessing depressive patients. Why they chose that particular scale to evaluate autism we'll never kmow because they provide no explanation.

The regular CGI-I scale uses a scale of 1-7 instead of -6-5. The cynic in me wonders if they choose the iCGI because there's an inherent bias against choosing negative numbers in such an evaluation. That said I don't even know if such a bias exists plus the authors were also the clinicians evaluating so it matters little.

Bradstreet et al choose instead to make up their own assessment for autistic severity (data which wasn't actually included at least in the pdf). They did take a baseline but it wasn't the one meant to be used in conjunction with their the scale they used for outcome. On top of that they evaluated improvement as it's own subjective outcome (as hdb said). They even had a quantifiable assessment they used for baseline but never repeated it for comparison! Not that that assessment was any good. Table 4 from the Bradstreet paper (p7 of the pdf):

Table 4. Questionnaire designed to evaluate relative
severity in the standard domains required for the diagnosis of autism.
--------------------------
1. General Impression of autism severity or delayed
development?
2. Expressive language?
3. Difficulty following verbal commands?
4. Flapping or self-stimulation?
5. Sensory Issue (touch texture etc.)
6. Difficult transitions?
7. Tantrums?
8. Obsessive and/or compulsive behaviors?
9. Lack of imaginative or age appropriate play?
10. Lack of desire for social interaction?
11. hyperactivity?
12. Inattention?
13. Lack of eye contact?
14. Problems Sleeping?
15. Sound sensitivity—ear covering?
16. Feeding problems?
17. gross motor problems (abnormal walking or running gait)?
18. Fine motor problems (tripod grasp, buttons, zippers, snaps)?
19. Anxiety or panic around doctors or about bloodwork?
20. Problems with bowel movements?

From p3 of the pdf "... the clinician in this study used an in-house
severity scoring system." The clinician being Jeff Bradstreet of course. Who would have guessed a quack would use a quacky assessment tool (I'm fairly sure neither the DSM-IV or V mentions bowel movements).

Of course, all this is trivial in the face of this study being uncontrolled and unblinded. The researchers were pretty much free to write the outcome themselves. I'll say it again, it seems like either gross incompetence or straight up dishonesty. Trevor doesn't do himself great credit to align himself with this paper, though he hurt his image far worse by apologizing for child abusers so he must not care much.

I’m fairly sure neither the DSM-IV or V mentions bowel movements

I am equally skeptical about "Anxiety or panic around doctors or about bloodwork?" -- that is, "child resists attentions of quack" -- as a marker of autism.

Of course, all this is trivial in the face of this study being uncontrolled and unblinded.

It was published in a short-lived Wakefield vanity vehicle, 'nuff said.

Of course, all this is trivial in the face of this study being uncontrolled and unblinded. The researchers were pretty much free to write the outcome themselves.

Recall too that the entire intellectual scaffolding rests upon the probity of the Nagalase activity tests conducted by the second author, Emar Vogelaar, through his company European Laboratory of Nutrients.

Vogelaar was arrested last year "on charges of defrauding insurance companies of millions of euros". He was accused of billing insurance companies for unrecognised tests which had not been officially ordered, also forgery and money laundering; and has so far been ordered to repay 1.3 million euros (criminal charges are proceeding). So far the Dutch courts have not been convinced by his argument that homeopathy, acupuncture and Anthroposophic medicine are cheaper than standard modalities, so the insurance companies he billed should be grateful for his attempts to save them money.

He appears to come from the Orthomolecular grifting tradition.

Capnkrunch #126

You illustrate precisely why I get so pernickety about how people "assess" autistic traits or symptoms: it's not like there aren't a number of very well researched tools out there, such as ADI-R or ADOS (disclaimer: I worked in the same directorate as one of those who developed ADI).

See also many papers about depression, which use incredibly basic to the point of being useless "tools" to "assess" depressive features.

@ capnkrunch

" (I’m fairly sure neither the DSM-IV or V mentions bowel movements)."

Maybe they should have put it in.As well as seizures,hearing or visual impairment,and intellectual or learning disability.Putting aside Bradstreet's views on vaccines,this is actually a pretty good list.The problem with the DSM definition of autism is that it is not inclusive enough.There are too few criteria to get a diagnosis.This may be one reason there are so many kids with an autism diagnosis these days.It is so easy to get one.I also seem to recall ASAN saying something once about how a person should get an autism diagnosis if they only meet two of the DSM criteria.

Clearly the woo-meisters really really believe that blondes have more fun and that bleach is the best way to be blonde both inside and out.

Trevor Banks -- or someone using his Hotmail address -- also runs the websites
www.healingcancertoday.org
nagalasebloodtest.com

Good news from the UK (possibly), via an anti-MMS Facebook page. Evidently representatives from The Surrey & Buckinghamshire Trading Standards Board attended the MMS meeting. It's possible that the Surrey Police were also present. Certainly an alert was published on the FB page for TS.

MMS is NOT bleach, anyone insisting on that needs to go back to school. I have used MMS for over 6 yrs. now with excellent results for arthritis, the flue, dengue fever, MSAR, nail fungus....the list goes on, I have cured one of my dogs of chronic gastritis and another one of kennel cough. The only reason MMS and Jim Humble are being prosecuted is because the pharma industry is about to lose a mega ton of money over this wonderful solution. Are you not aware that your water supply contains MMS? You've been drinking it for years!!! All of you nay sayers keep taking your medications that are slowly poisoning you, that are not curing the illness but covering up the symptoms. Good luck to you all, I for one will stick with MMS!!!

Angela,

As has been discussed repeatedly, MMS (which is neither a mineral nor a miracle) is a 28% solution of sodium chlorite. When mixed with acid, it generates chlorine dioxide. Chlorine dioxide has many industrial uses, including bleaching wood pulp, chlorinating water, and various disinfectant uses. According to the FDA "High oral doses of this bleach, such as those recommended in the labeling, can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and symptoms of severe dehydration."

So yes, when used as directed, it's bleach. Not that there's anything wrong with drinking bleach in low enough concentrations.

I'm not aware of any studies showing that it has any useful medicinal purpose. I'd be careful using it on your flue, as that sort of work should be done by a competent chimney sweep.

Angela, MMS is a sodium chlorite--a strong chlorine-based oxidizing agent.

That makes it a bleach by any rational (or scientific) definition of the word 'bleach'.

Angela, if our water supply contains MMS, why would anyone have to spend money to buy it? Why couldn't we just drink tap water with the same results?

"The only reason ___ (are being persecuted/prosecuted/ignored/made fun of) is because the pharma industry is about to lose a mega ton of money over this"

Yep, fill in the blank with whatever miracle remedy you want - MMS, concentrated hydrogen peroxide, apple cider vinegar, Rife rays or any of the myriad other cheap, safe, wondrously effective cures being suppressed by the Man. Any day now, the truth will come to light, Pharma will be vanquished, and fabulous good health will be ours.

It's about to happen, just you wait.

"Why couldn’t we just drink tap water with the same results?"

The results should be even better, given the extreme homeopathic dilutions involved. If MMS was truly a miracle we should already be cured of practically everything.

How many of you have tried MMS. It is not sodium chlorite (which is bleach), it is chlorine dioxide. It is a master mineral, that when activated, clears pathogens in the blood and body. I have been using it for two years for my dear son and we are slowly recovering his health from years of being sick with Lyme and confections. Conventional medicine can do nothing for late chronic Lyme and co-infections. Do your research and it will help from making uninformed statements that are patently untrue.

Look there, at the 1st conference GcMAF, the Noakes's team
http://www.gcmafconference.org/april/index.php?option=com_content&view=… (april 2013, Frankfurt) Click on "speakers", you will get the CV of each on them, and one of them is Emar Vogelaar. They recommand some laboratories https://gcmaf.se/patient-resources/nagalase-blood-test/, one of them is Vogelaar's one http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/, anotherone is this one http://www.redlabs.be/red-labs/our-science/autism.php

You told about tax-frauds?

No matter how often I read about treatments like this, I still can't believe parents actually subject their children to them

oracknows — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 01:52:48 +0000

No matter how often I read about treatments like this, I still can't believe parents actually subject their children to them

It's been a while since I've written about MMS. You remember MMS, don't you? It's an abbreviation for "miracle mineral solution," a solution first promoted by a man who is inaptly named Jim Humble. Basically, as I've described in multiple blog posts, MMS is bleach, specifically chlorine dioxide (ClO₂). I first became acutely aware of it a little more than a year ago, when I noticed that the antivaccine autism biomed quackfest known as Autism One featured a talk by a woman named Kerri Rivera, who advocated using MMS to "bleach autism away," as I put it at the time. Of course, Jim Humble doesn't limit his use of MMS to just autism, but, like all good cranks, touts it as a near universal cure-all that is good for just about anything that ails you. So what's so bad about using it for autism?

What caught my eye (and horrified me to think about it) was that Kerri Rivera was advocating the use of MMS enemas to treat autism. Yes, Kerri Rivera advocated subjecting autistic children to bleach enemas and has made videos touting this as a biomedical treatment for autism. As I noted back then, even worse (if that were possible), Rivera advocated “fever therapy” and characterized fevers after bleach enemas to be a good thing, a sign that the treatment is “working,” much as Jim Humble gives MMS to treat adults in increasing doses until they start to feel ill. (Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum. Not Kerri Rivera, apparently.) Indeed, Rivera even exults about how much she loves “fever therapy” and how it “wakes up the immune system.” In addition to the bleach enemas, she recommends a “72-2″ protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

If there's one thing that Kerri Rivera appears to do that deceives parents (besides the rather obvious claim she makes that ingesting bleach or making enemas out of it will do anything but risk potential poisoning and injury to the rectum and the lining of the colon) is the claim that MMS eliminates "parasites." Much as advocates of "colon cleanses" claim that what's coming out represents years of accumulated waste that's making you sick or, even more appropriately, as advocates of "liver flushes" try to convince their unwitting marks that the little lumps of saponified oil that come through the stool due to the cleanse are in actuality gallstones being "flushed" out of the liver. advocates of bleach enemas, it would appear, claim that what comes out in the stool are "parasites" and "worms." I learned this from a particularly horrifying blog I came across a while back, thanks to a reader, known as A Drop At a Time: The CD Journey of a Child With Autism (the "CD" part stands for chlorine dioxide). It's the story of a mother subjecting her child to MMS treatments, including both oral ingestion of MMS and MMS enemas.

The introduction sets the background. The boy's name is Jojo, who is now nearly eleven. He was diagnosed with autism when he was three years old, and his mother has been subjecting him to "autism biomed" interventions since December 2005, beginning because, as she put it, "I decided to give it a go because my mother's instinct told me that Jojo suffers from egregious tummy problems."

Yes, the dreaded "mommy instinct" strikes again.

So apparently Jojo underwent a wide variety of "autism biomed" woo over the last seven or eight years, but in March 2013 the "biomed" treatment took a turn to the terrifying when Jojo's mother discovered MMS and began to follow Kerri Rivera's MMS protocol:

Jojo is given 1 oz of the mixture hourly, so effectively he is getting 1/8th of a drop each time. His first dose was given after school at 1 pm. He is now given 8 doses only although my reading tells me that it is a minimum. I suppose I could increase up to 9-12 doses a day but I'm kinda leery of the possible increase in die-off effects too.

As well she should have been leery, but apparently not leery enough not to undertake biomedical quackery. Even as early as day 1, she noted Jojo running a low grade fever and coughing, which, of course, could simply have been a coincidence. Similarly, she also noted JoJo to have increased hyperactivity, which could very easily have been due to confirmation bias. By day 2, Jojo continued to have fever, and his cough got worse. Somehow, his mother came to believe that "coughing after taking MMS could be due to parasites in the lung dying," as incredible as it might be that anyone would believe something like that. Later entries describe Jojo developing constipation, and, when that resolved, his mother thinking that parasites were coming out in his stool. It is a theme that continues through the rest of the blog, as Jojo develops diarrhea, languidness, and flareups of his chronic eczema (blamed on parasites, of course).

Finally, Jojo's mother decides that he needs to have MMS enemas after having had a text message exchange with Kerri Rivera. Jojo's mother tells Rivera that he is constipated, and Rivera responds:

Do an enema. There is probably a worm in his intestine. And give more MMS doses orally if he is awake. More MMS now, please.

So Jojo's mother did just that and administered the first enema on day 7.

So what happened? Well, here's what I meant by comparing the claims of someone like Kerri Rivera to those of "liver flush" quacks. The very first example of this can be found in an entry called Worm. Here's where the gross pictures begin. Now take a look at that link and the picture contained therein. It's basically a stringy bit of something that looks a little bit like a worm. Jojo's mom asked her mom buddies on the MMS Facebook group, all of whom were "pretty sure" it was a worm. It's not. Any surgeon or doctor who deals with GI problems will recognize it as a bit of mucus, possibly with a bit of colon mucosa (the lining of the colon). We see this sort of thing all the time, and it's definitely not a worm.

Over the month of April and into May, Jojo's mother treats her blog to regular photos of things like this. For instance, in this post, she spreads a bunch of nasty stuff out and photographs it. Kerri Rivera, we are told, has informed her that this stuff is "worm INTESTINES. The outer skin is already digested and the inside (intestines etc) disintegrates like this." No, it's just more mucus mixed with colonic mucosa. Disturbingly to me as a surgeon, it looks like a fairly decent-sized chunk of colonic mucosa with mucus. I can't say for sure how large it is because Jojo's mom was, unfortunately, not kind enough to provide a ruler next to it. Oddly enough, the lower picture shows more mucus, and Jojo's mother correctly labels it as such. Then, right after that, we're treated to more pictures of mucus and sloughed colon mucosa, which Rivera characterizes once again as " the intestines of the worm, the outer 'skin' having already been digested."

Later on in the protocol, Jojo's mother tells us:

It's been a while since I wrote in this blog but I have been so busy. I have been poop-diving for quite a while now, started about a week before April's Parasite Protocol. Getting to be more confident about differentiating between biofilm (translucent, clear, film-like gel), mucus (breaks up in water) and worm pieces (looks like layers of opaque tissue, when lifted with work it intertwines around itself like a rope).

Kerri says that the outer skin of the worm is usually totally digested by the time these worms are expelled and what we see, that rope-like, intertwined tissue are its intestines, the insides of the worm.

Later still, because the "worms" are still coming out, Rivera tells Jojo's mom that she needs to treat her son not only with bleach but with Mebendazole, a drug used to treat worms, such as pinworms, roundworms, tapeworms, hookworms, and whipworms. The new protocol included:

With the parasite protocol, one will have more to keep track of:

Mebendazole / Combantrin

Diatomaceous Earth (DE) + Rompepiedras (RP)

Castor Oil

Neem

All the above are given in different combinations on different days, no real pattern to it so one has to be on the ball enough to know what is given on which days of the Parasite Protocol from Days 1 - 18. From Day 18 onwards it's just the DE and the RP.

I have to say that I have seen a lot of worms only after starting the Parasite Protocol. So what I read about Andreas Kalcker saying that CD (read: MMS) alone will not kill the parasites and that mebendazole is required must be true. Whilst it does happen ~ parasites being killed by CD alone, best results are achieved with the Rivera CD protocol done in conjunction with the Kalcker Parasite Protocol.

Remember what I said about the liver flushes above? Basically, liver flushes involve taking Epsom salts, olive oil, and fruit juices, such as apple juice or lemon juice. As I pointed out before, these "gallstones" are nothing more than saponified oils, thanks to the acids from the juice and the salt from the Epsom salts or phosphate salts often used in these protocols. Similarly, what I suspect to be going on here is that the castor oil and neem (which is an oil as well), mixed with the diatomaceous earth, combine in much the same way that the Epsom salts, oils, and acid from the juices do in liver flushes, the difference being that, because the mixture probably doesn't saponify in the same way. However, clearly, when enemas are added, what comes out, instead of looking like little stones, looks like the pictures we see.

Reading this blog depressed me to no end, just as reading Kent Heckenlively's account of taking his daughter to a quack clinic in Costa Rica to have dubious "stem cells" injected into her cerebrospinal fluid through lumbar puncture. Autistic children, who should be able to look to their parents for protection, are being subjected to harmful quackery. Now, the MMS enemas are probably not quite as bad as injecting cells of dubious origin that are almost certainly not the stem cells they are advertised to be, but it's plenty bad. On the other hand, children subjected to stem cell quackery are only usually injected once or occasionally, as it's too expensive to do it more frequently. Jojo's mother subjected him to bleach enemas every day, multiple times a day sometimes.

The horror boggles the mind.

oracknows Mon, 06/17/2013 - 21:52

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Antivaccine nonsense

autism

complementary and alternative medicine

complementary and alternative medicine

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Medicine

This makes me sick. How can people do that to anyone, let alone their own children?

The cognitive dissonance must be massive.

Poor poor Jojo, how can any child deserve a mother like his?
Shouldn't she be in jail, for child-abuse?

@Renate - yes, yes she should. She's slowly liquifying her child's intestines.....where the hell does she think these "parasites" are coming from?

This is one of the main reasons that Quack kills - because these parents don't have a freakin' clue what they are doing to their children.

This is child abuse. Shouldn't some sort of child protection service be taking an interest here?

This really does count as abuse. I don't understand why any developed country would allow parents to harm their children in this way regardless of whether they had a "feeling" it was doing good or not.

I do volunteer work for a group that tracks televangelism fraud and collaborates with investigative news programs. I sent an e-mail to my main contact in this group and asked if he could have one of these shows infiltrate the Autism One conference to watch Rivera's talk and confront her. (I had already tipped off a couple of Chicago news stations, but they didn't reply.) This group doesn't normally solicit stories to the programs they work with, but they were horrified enough by MMS that they disregarded that policy and went to a certain syndicated newsmagazine with the story. The producer he knew was interested, but I never heard whether the executive producer felt the same way. I contacted them too short of notice for them to sneak into Autism One, but I definately did get Rivera onto their radar. I like to think I did what I could do.

As a parent of a NT child, I have a question for those who might be more knowledged on the matter. It sprang into my head while reading this. (Before the disgust fully kicked in.)

Could the "fever therapy" be attractive to parents because their child is easier to care for when they're sick? I know that my daughter just lays about when she has a fever and we generally just park ourselves on the couch for the day and rest. If a child is generally hard to care for and a so-called "educated" person is telling them that these fevers are good, would that attract some parents to it if a fever meant an easy way to just sit back and relax and call it a treatment?

Of course, I don't really know and my curiosity has the best of me here. My daughter being ill scares me so much, but I have recognized that those are days when we both tend to rest a lot.

@ Renate, Lawrence, nastylittlehorse, Adam

Definitely child abuse, just based on what is being given into the colon, but also on the picture at the top of http://jojosmmsjourney.blogspot.com/ , labeled "23 May 2013: PP2 Day 1" there appear to be some flecks of red blood in these mucousy pieces (and you could be certain a occult heme testing would be positive as well). Ironically, there is a "report abuse" on the menu drop-down under "More" up at the top, but I suspect it is referring, more likely, to some sort of "blog abuse" and not child abuse. Reading the intro to this blog (http://jojosmmsjourney.blogspot.com/2013/03/intro.html), this "mom" is (a) not in the US, (b) has a link to Malaysia, and (c) uses the word "Mum"--so perhaps is somewhere in the UK but came/from or has strong ties to Malaysia.

As a physician, I've recommended bleach baths for children with recurrent MRSA skin infections, but we're talking not much higher concentration than hot tub chlorination levels, and definitely never for internal use. But putting an enema with bleach up a child's rectum, as common sense should scream, cannot result in any good.

A few years back there was an 8 month-old infant who presented to an ED here in Tucson weighing 9 lbs and severely ill. She was a home birth and had never seen a physician (until the ED) and was a victim of neglect--if not also abuse. Her amazingly neglectful parents did the authorities a favor by posting to their facebook account many pictures of their infant in the month between birth and going to the ED and helped CPS clearly show neglect (sadly I don't know if these wretched parents were allowed to get their child back after her severe failure to thrive was corrected by physicians, nutritionists and foster parents). But I'd like to think wherever this mom is these pictures (and her detailed descriptions of what she's done) could also be used for a neglect/abuse case.

@Brittany #7:

Could the “fever therapy” be attractive to parents because their child is easier to care for when they’re sick?

Quite possibly. Having said that, when I'm sick I make Oscar the Grouch look like a paragon of civility. Yet illness does make me want to sleep a lot, so I could be considered more docile when ill.

@Chris -

Yeah, it mentions autism groups in KL and that sort of stuff. If she's malaysia based I have no idea what government body (if any) would care about it.

Child protection in the UK, of she is here, should certainly take an interest.

Horrific. This woman needs to be tracked down, and exposed as the demented child abuser that she is.

Enemas are horrible. The administration (by someone else) feels degrading and can make you feel so vulnerable. The sequelae can be agonising, with severe cramping, nausea, feeling flushed, and all manner of unpleasant things.

To think of a child (especially one who may lack typical communication capabilities) having this done to him daily, makes me feel simultaneously murderous and utterly helpless, because I want to save him, but I can't.

She isn't trying to "cure" JoJo. She's punishing him.

It appears that she is in Kuala Lumpur. She has a 'Sleepless in KL' tag on a couple of posts, and she makes reference to Malay war songs.

There's a 'KL Biomed' (puke) Facebook page, so some detective work could probably figure out who they are. Apparently there's a Suspected Child Abuse and Neglect team at Kuala Lumpur hospital.

I believe action has recently been taken to make teachers responsible for flagging child abuse (mandated reporters in the US, I think) but from what I can gather from the articles I've seen, the results aren't great, and UNICEF appear to be paying special attention to Malaysia.

It was incredibly discomfitting to read that Malaysian Meddler Mum gives JoJo enemas in his lunch break. Shouldn't he be coming home for lunch to, you know, EAT? She also mentioned that his teachers dish out his "medication" ( including bloody castor oil capsules) throughout the day, so they're clearly in thrall to is mother.

My thoughts are with you JoJo ' I wish I could help you.

One last comment for now*, and it's a harsh warning:

Do not play any kind of woo-spotting, biomeddling-detection drinking games while reading the following link. I love you all, and don't want you to die from liver failure:

thestar.com.my/health/story.asp?file=/2011/4/24/health/8513939&sec=health

*I'm agitated by the whole thing, and my first meds of the day are due, and I haven't had enough caffeine to slow me down, yet!

Malaysia is afaik British Commonwealth, so Britishisms like 'mum' might be expected, too.

Though it's rare, children have occasionally been killed by hypermagnesemia caused by Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) enemas e.g.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15759964
I hate to think what chlorine dioxide enemas might do.

My Mom used to give us enemas (soap, no bleach) if we didn't poo for more than a day or two. I hated it and luckily, she stopped this practice as we got older (12 or so) although I'm not sure why, but perhaps we made a bigger fuss as we got older?

My Mom was rather compulsive and had some kind of germ fear. She did use a lot of bleach for cleaning, but I guess I have to be thankful there was no internet then to further inspire her.

At least we could protest, I cannot imagine what a non-communicative autistic child must go through.

Unfortunately, obsessions/ delusions** about parasites are prevalent in woo-topia:

TMR has had a few posts about bugs and worms- rifling through their archives of madness, I immediately found "Bugs, Moon Cycles and Lunacy" ( courtesy of Ms Poppy, June 2012), not only does she firmly believe that her child has parasites, she also believes that the parasites become more active - and the child more affected- during the full moon. Commenters agree ( Rivera pops up there).

Recently, a PRN Talkback show featured the woo-bespoke host's insistence that SBM doesn't know anything about parasitical infestation in non-Third World countries- which is VERY common: these critters are under-the-radar and standard testing misses most of them. Of course, he has complicated herbal*** protocols and products to eliminate them. Obviously, *meat eaters* can pick up all sorts of horrible intestinal hitchhikers. "
"Go vegan".

Many alt med advocates link psychological and intestinal issues: perhaps in their case, it has somethig to do with those two areas being in closer proximity than is normal.

** and there's always a woo-meister/ maitresse ready, willing and able to cash in on delusional thinking

.*** Not sure if he still sells "Bug out!"

Tierra's "Way of Herbs" lists antiparasite herbs- including potentially harmful ones like chapparal and larkspur as well as garlic, rue, thyme, cinnamon oil and artemisia.

Ugh, I had an enema once as a child for severe constipation. I can't imagine getting them regularly!

I think this is not only abuse of the child, but horrible abuse by the practitioner of the mother. I can't imagine any woman, but especially a mom who already has so much on her plate dealing with the challenges of an autistic child, spending days upon days "poop diving." The occasional stool sample for a pediatrician in my house is gross enough.

I'm not a psychiatrist, and would be reticent to diagnose over the internet in any case, but does the Jojo's mom case sound to anyone like Münchausen syndrome by proxy?

Ugh. I had to skip over parts of the treatment descriptions above because it was upsetting me so much. One day this poor child is going to end up in the ER and a real doctor is going to have to try and repair the damage his demented mother has inflicted on him.

I know a quack like Kerri Rivera is small fry to the regulatory bodies, but could the blog posts mentioning Rivera giving "treatment" advice be reported to some authority as evidence that she is trying to practice medicine without a license? We know the autism quacks are completely impervious to shame, and their enablers in the biomed camp are never going to publicly criticize them either - because admitting that one treatment is bogus opens up the uncomfortable possibility that all of them are.

If a child is generally hard to care for and a so-called “educated” person is telling them that these fevers are good, would that attract some parents to it if a fever meant an easy way to just sit back and relax and call it a treatment?

I think you may be on to something here. Caring for an autistic child is difficult, and may well be too much for some parents. They hear about this so-called treatment, and in their desperation they overlook the obvious signs that this would be a Bad Idea. So when the people advocating the treatment say that fever and other symptoms we normally think of as bad are actually good, these parents push onward.

That's assuming that the parents actually have the best of intentions, which is not always the case. Some people have a martyr complex, and there is such a thing as Munchausen by proxy.

As an aside-
I adopted a small cat ( really a giant kitten) several years ago: he immediately began producing awful-smelling liquid poo and became weak and morose-looking, not wanting to eat or do much at all- nothing subtle about it.

A simple test revealed coccidia and liquid antibiotics helped quickly. Shouldn't a child get as much help?

Shouldn't an adult be able to understand that sometimes you need a professional to test and identify the problem?
IF any problem indeeed exists..
These woo-besotten parents want to attribute ASDs to external sources like vaccines, meds or parasites, not accept them as being the pathway of development that their child is taking.

Brittany -- possibly it's attractive because the child is more compliant, but I think more significant is the sense of accomplishing something. A treatment is administered, a change is observed, therefore it's working! So they keep doing it, and soon they start seeking the change that shows its working rather than worrying about the end point. It could be a little pavlovian -- sort of like clicker training a dog, you train them to associate the click with a treat and praise, and fairly quickly you don't need to do the treat and praise because the click is all it takes to make the dog feel rewarded. Even though the dog didn't get the thing they'd actually been wanting; they come to substitute the signal for the reward.

Combine that with the "warrior mommy" thing and it all becomes disturbingly attractive. They want to be Doing Something to help their child, because that is what warrior mommies do. Anything less is a sign of failure. So they really want to see signs of progress. This "treatment" doesn't work, but it *does* produce symptoms that the unwary can be deluded into thinking are signs of progress. So rather than these side-effects discouraging them, it actually encourages them instead.

My paternal grandfather was a general surgeon, but practicing in a small* town on the high prairies which meant he was often the only doctor on duty at their tiny hospital. Sometimes patients would come in and he could tell they were the "worried well". So he'd patiently listen to them, and then prescribe a medication. He warned that it might make them sick to their stomachs, but that would just mean it was working. Well, it was a sort of a placebo, really; he was prescribing them a mild emetic, with the intention that this would make them think it was working. And they were all satisfied, so it certainly *seemed* to work. Ethical? Certainly not by modern standards. But it's an illustration of how potent an "active placebo" can be in deluding someone (whether the patient or the caregiver) into thinking its working.

*Well, for a certain value of "small" -- what's small to a New Yorker is downright urban to a North Dakotan in the sixties.

Oh god. I read this before open of business at work and I'm still having a hard time not crying (or, um, stimming too openly) because of it. My husband has an ASD, and I have major issues with sensory overload, looking at people, and being touched by anyone not said husband.

The idea of having this done to a child is horrifying. I keep involuntarily imagining having this happen to me as a kid, when even a hug could melt me down, and I... it feels scary and nauseating and makes me feel powerless. I wish they lived in a county with better child protection services, so Jojo could be rescued. :(

(Also, hi elburto! I believe we knew each other on LJ, where I was kaowolfie. Chick with the migraines, trigeminal neuropathy, and a tendency to clue by four people about ableism and sexism?)

Calli #23,

Ugh, you're probably right about the reinforcement. I just cannot imagine anyone thinking a fever in a child is a "wanted" thing.

Chemical ----> Oooh, eeebil!

Natural chemicals -----> Mmm, nature!

Hippie logic ====> Where reality goes to die.

@ Elburto
Is that a newspaper-article, or an advertisement for some group, that is so deep into woo, that I don't understand it?
"Parents seeking effective treatments"? I don't think anything on that list is effective and some of those sound a bit dangerous. I don't see MMS listed, but every other woo in the book is.

Some years ago a (real medical) parasitologist told me about the "worms" people brought to him, that they had found in their feces, all of which turned out to be bits of undigested food. He also told me that a patient once brought him some actual worms. They had been given them by their colonic irrigation therapist, who had told them these worms had washed out of their colon. On examination he found they were the type of worms you can buy to feed tropical fish, and that could not possibly survive in a human GI tract. I don't know how common this practice is, but it does seem a good way of keeping the marks happy.

Air hugs for Nashira. I hope you're feeling better now.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I cried, and I almost vomited thinking about that poor kid. It's left me feeling distinctly anxious and triggered, especially coming so soon after the Alex Spourdalakis case.

In my former job I've made child protection referrals for so much less, and not being able to help is so frustrating.

When, for once, a dash of homeopathy would be a positive thing - homeopathic bleach is infinitely preferable to higher concentrations of it - the quack is not signed up for this One Woo...

Sorry for double post, I was catching up when this gem caught my attention.

Obviously, *meat eaters* can pick up all sorts of horrible intestinal hitchhikers. ”
“Go vegan”.

So we have the assertation - eating meat gives you parasites, eating plants does not.

But wait a minute! The animals we eat are of the herbivore variety, id est they eat plants. The same plants that are not considered a risk factor in catching a parasite.

Wherefore come the parasites in the meat of those herbivores than?

The really ridiculous thing is that getting a parasitic infection in the US is so rare these days that our children will likely never have one in their lives if they stay here and things continue as they are. Why worry about something like that?

@ Smith of Lie
Most of the parasites that our meat animals can be infected with have incredibly complex life cycles (that fortunately I'm not required to know anymore.) Sometimes (often) there is a larval form that lives in the soil (or in other inhabitants of soil) that can be ingested during grazing. Or it's as simple as having a parasite egg-containing pasture. And there you have it--intestinal parasites. Veganism doesn't protect you from gastrointestinal disease--just ask anybody who's had salmonellosis from some unwashed lettuce or sprouts.

God this is sad. The defense these parents use is also very disconcerting to me. I still don't understand the whole "gut flora" issue people keep bringing up, especially since old Andy's been discredited.

On a side note, does anyone else find the mms home page a little weird? Why is he standing there with a tiger?

@Janet

Yeah, I am pretty aware of that. I lack the vocabulary to describe the parasite I am thinking about, but I remember learning about ones most often contracted by eating unwashed veggies. I was just pointing out the wholes in the supposition that meat eaters are just asking to get infested up to the nose with parasites while vegans are immune to that (aside from other superpowers they boast, at least as long as they stay on the good side of Vegan Police).

No, no, no! Parasites are secondary to toxins! You've got to get rid of the toxins first, otherwise the parasites will keep coming back. The most powerful detoxifier is asparagus. The toxins come out in the urine, and boy do they stink! You've got to keep eating asparagus until all of the toxins come out. This could take a long time. I've been detoxifying for 5 years, and they're still coming out.

@elburto and Nashira

This may help.

Gah. Broken link. Let's try that again.

Mark -- a good start, but you really need to be chelating naturally. Oxalic acid is a chelator, so I recommend strawberry-rhubarb pie with every meal. No exceptions. ;-)

@ #28, Krebiozen-

As a resident I saw a toddler in the ER who had a "worm in her butt" (that was the exact chief complaint). When I looked, it did resemble a rather large, red translucent worm. I gloved, pulled it out (it was an in out with another 2-3 inches inside but came out easily). It reminded me of an artificial worm used in fishing. I asked the parents if she'd gotten into a tackle box and they said she hadn't but she had eaten a large amount of gummy worms the day prior--so I'm guessing if she swallowed some, at least one made it through relatively undigested. The worm was clear on cross sectioning (grossly-this wasn't anything like needing to look a GMO fed piglet tummies), and I did consider sending it to pathology for a laugh. I did not, however, taste it to prove it was a gummy worm (ugh).

It is child abuse...pure and simple. This utterly vile creature has been *treating* her autistic child for 8 years, with gawd knows what other invasive, painful *biomedical treatment protocols*, because she views her child as being a dirty infected/infested being.

If she does reside in Malaysia and her child's "therapist" at school is dosing JoJo with castor bean pills...it speak volumes about the non-existent safeguards in place, to protect little kids from their abusers.

Somewhat OT, but have you all seen this article yet?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/18/book-raises-alarms…

Surprisingly reasonable, although there's a slight hint of false balance. The comments, as usual, are a cesspool.

@lilady - Yeah,UNICEF voiced concerns about how seriously Malaysian teachers will take their reporting duties. Poor JoJo.

@Todd - fabulous, thanks! Puppies, sloths, kittens, the whole shebang. A guaranteed cheerer-upper.

@Chris Hickle - Before our elderly dad (my father in law) died he was obsessed with his um... evacuations. For some reason he was convinced he had, or would get, stomach cancer.

Tummy ache after eating a pound of Cheshire cheese? Cancer!

Diarrhoea after downing litres of milk? Cancer!

The high point was the shrieking call, 5am when we'd been asleep for an hour with all of our lovely medications kicking in and taking us to dreamland. Picture it, strident ringtone (yeah, Doctor Who theme), then howls of "IT'S BLACK OMG IT'S BLACK, THIS IS IT, I'M FINISHED!"

It took twenty minutes to convince him that the cramps and black stools were. the result of him eating the half birthday cake we'd left him in one sitting. Half of Other Mrs elburto's cake, a Tardis cake that was covered in blue royal icing. The cramps? Well who would get mere crampy, after wolfing down more than a kilo of birthday cake and blue icing, than a 75 year old man with diverticular disease?

He found 'worms' too (grape skins), 'blood' in his urine and faeces (he'd eaten a jar of pickled beetroot, the results terrified him!), 'blood clots' (cherries, and all manner of delights. We miss him, but not the middle of the night calls to get to the hospital because he'd had a 'heart attack'* after a weird bowel movement, and thought he'd die of cancer. Poor old thing. He never got cancer yet, and died at 77.

*Usually a panic attack which then triggered his AF, and required three days of attempted cardioversion by any means possible.

Re: gut flora, studying the human microbiome (not only gut but all the interesting little groups of beasties that live in or on us) is a hot area of basic science at the moment, and there is early evidence to suggest that they can play a role in many normal biological processes and potentially pathologies as well, including some intriguing hints on a role in emotion regulation. However, the difference is that the researchers in the field know it is actually very complex and we are still at the earliest stages of understanding it, nowhere near being able to tell how (or whether) an individuals microbiome could or should be manipulated to improve health. And I am pretty sure that not one of them would recommend bleach as a therapeutic strategy!
That poor child - it breaks my heart a little to think he is, in essence, being tortured by the one who he should be able to trust most will protect him.

@ elburto
Thanks for the laugh--I had to clean off the keyboard very quickly since I had a mouthful of water! Reminds me of my Dad who died a few months ago, in his sleep, at age 80. Ye gods and little fishes, could that man complain!

Anyone seen this crap yet:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-18/autism-tied-to-air-pollution-b…

Please tell me this has been debunked already.

Oh, from the abstract:

We estimated associations between U.S. Environmental Protection Agency modeled levels of hazardous air pollutants at the time and place of birth and ASD in the children of participants in the Nurses’ Health Study II (325 cases, 22,101 controls). Our analyses focused on pollutants associated with ASD in prior research. We accounted for possible confounding and ascertainment bias by adjusting for family-level socioeconomic status (maternal grandparents’ education) and census-tract-level socioeconomic measures (e.g., tract median income and percent college educated), as well as maternal age at birth and year of birth. We also examined possible differences in the relationship between ASD and pollutant exposures by child’s sex.

So basically they guessed....classy.

@ AdamG:

Dr Offit's recent book, the excerpt @ The Guardian and his NYT commentary have already been taken down briefly by Gary Null ( Friday's show, PRN/ 17 minutes in) - more is forthcoming I'm told..
Promises, promises.

Basically, he argues that Dr O is an ignorant pharma shill, the studies he cites are garbage and supplements are purity and the divine life force coalesced into conveniently-sized, easy to swallow tablets/ capsules.

Oh, and there's a paradigm shift of tsunamic strength about to engulf SBM and wash it clean..

Oxalic acid is a chelator, so I recommend strawberry-rhubarb pie with every meal. No exceptions.

Is potage germiny mandatory as a starter?

I saw this linked in the Alex thread, ugh it makes me sick.
On the rare occasion that my brother or I got threadworms as kids, all we had to go through was taking a chalky, orange flavoured pill from the chemists(the whole family did), with a repeat dose a week or so later, and everything was completely sorted. Seriously, what the hell? If it's taking months or years to treat supposed parasites, it's not working!
Of course, the sick thing is that the quack who sells this "treatment" knows very well what the results, the stripping of the colon lining, looks like and uses it to fearmonger and string these parents along into injuring their children even more, like a vicious cycle. Ugghh*vomit*

@kruuth: I know some people tried to link autism to coal-fired emissions, but I think that has been debunked.

Kruuth @#34, I think part of the drumbeat for 'gut flora' is that it's a popular subject even in mainstream circles now, with patients being advised by doctors to keep up consumption of yogurt, etc. during antibiotics courses. Like a lot of woo, it's a good idea (diet, stress reduction, cleanliness) taken to a ridiculous extreme.

The whole yogurt thing is a load of crap. It's just an urban legend that was never really proven. I had cancer sores for years and the only thing my mother ever did was tell me to "eat yogurt" all the while I was in agony. Never gave a damb to take me to a real doctor about it. 20 years later I'm in my oral surgeon's office and he sees one of these monstrosities in my mouth, gives me chlorhexidine and they almost stop completely. I get a few flare-ups but nothing like before.

I still haven't forgiven ma for that.

children have occasionally been killed by hypermagnesemia caused by Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) enemas

Showing once again that for any really stupid way of killing a child, there is a parent somewhere who will find it.

does the Jojo’s mom case sound to anyone like Münchausen syndrome by proxy?

Rivera's entire operation is basically Munchausen-by-proxy-by-proxy.

Half of Other Mrs elburto’s cake, a Tardis cake that was covered in blue royal icing

Why does that not surprise me?

Surprisingly reasonable, although there’s a slight hint of false balance.

"In the letter, Burzynski wrote that, 'based on the results of the phase 2 trials, the FDA has granted permission to proceed into two Phase 3 clinical trials in brain tumors.'"

@ Adam G. I must be "missing" the spot to comment on that USA Today link you provided about Dr. Offit's book. Could you provide it?

Narad:

Is potage germiny mandatory as a starter?

Well, for the fruit-reluctant, potage germiny could be an alternative to the strawberry rhubarb pie. Though heaven knows there's nothing better than rhubarb and strawberry. ;-) (Except maybe if you add chocolate.)

My husband is one of those who loathes cilantro, so I have found a couple of substitutes. One is lemon thyme. The other is wood sorrel, which grows in abundance around here, even if you don't want it to. It's a bit like dandelions in that regard. Though I don't think it's at all related to sheep sorrel, it also gets its tart flavor from oxalic acid, and is very tasty.

@kruuth- I feel your pain, literally. Not only on the mouth ulcers, but the mother. Mine "trained" as a homeopath. Any symptom (other than asthma attacks) was met with a proffered sugar pill, or a muttered "Buck up kid".

I'm glad you discovered the miracle of swilling chlorhexidine around your mouth! I adore pharmaceuticals in their many and varied forms, especially those which zap pain. They certainly beat having a manky sugar pill shoved under my tongue

Thanks elburto. My mom can't understand why I'm so curt with her on so many health things and then I remind her of the hell I went through with her bs diagnoses and yogurt to cure everything. I would go weeks where I couldn't eat anything because of that and she'd just laugh and claim it was a "swollen taste bud" and I just needed some yogurt. I can't even count how many times I lost weeks of school for getting sick from something she deemed wasn't that important. She sent me to school with strep more than once.

@hdb - We are almoSt painfully geeky. For her 40th birthday my friends made her a chocolate Dalek cake. Our entire belief system is essentially "If you're going to be weird, be really weird". Luckily for us our friends aren't exactly paragons of normality either!

@Calli - our garden is loaded with rhubarb, giant rhubarb. We sometimes get three foot long stalks. Unfortunately neither of us can eat it, I mean we can, but the side-effects are catastrophic, I'm sure I don't have to elaborate!

A few years ago, the Age of Autism folks were very upset about a mother who killed her child with bleach, but now that bleach treatment is part of the antivaccine memespace, it is vgorously defended. How long before current tragedies are transmuted into novel treatments that are flogged at antivax festivals, and defended just as strongly? Might MMS be replaced with MSS (miracle stabbing solution (how dare you show your ignorance by noticing that MMS is bleach, or that MSS is a knife!)?

elburto - send the rhubarb my way.

I've said it before, but I think it bears repeating for tone....

I've drunk bleach in reasonable dilution. Sodium hypochlorite bleach works fine to sanitize drinking water if you dilute it to a safe concentration. This is useful in some circumstances when camping or otherwise out in the wilds. The problem with MMS is not just that people are making their children drink bleach (or giving them enemas with it) - it's that the bleach doesn't do what they say it does.

If there were good evidence that chlorine dioxide mixed with a weak acid and used as an enema actually did something useful, I'd be in favor of it. As there isn't and it appears it tears up the intestines, that's abuse.

I've known about the idiocy that is MMS for a couple of years and I still look upon the imbeciles who use it with incredulity. But the talk of intestinal worms got my reminiscence gland secreting vague memory hormones.

It's a long time since I've mentioned my training in the RN but the mention of anthelmintics reminded me of one treatment which was taught (but never to my knowledge, prescribed);

Male Fern Extract.

Anyone else heard of it?

Apologies for the slight off topic detour.

Dr. Offit was on the CBS Morning News: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149140n

OT, I had pinworms as a kid 60+ years ago, and I remember taking pills that made your mouth purple if you didn't swallow them quickly. We were living in Alaska in a house without running water. I assume that had a lot to do with it.

@Trends: When Kerri Rivera first appeared at Autism One a year ago, Julie Obradovic defended her on AoA. She was forced to furiously packpedal when she was called out on it by a "HuffPo" (!) contributor. This year, AoA completely ignored Rivera, probably because they knew discussing her would arouse negative publicity for Autism One and themselves.

Chris Hickie (#40): "The worm was clear on cross sectioning (grossly-this wasn’t anything like needing to look a GMO fed piglet tummies), and I did consider sending it to pathology for a laugh."

Well, a gummy worm would be better than some of the foreign objects that docs fish out of various orifices and bodily organs and send us in Pathology. My favorite was the steel girder that a construction worker impaled himself on after falling from a great height (as I recall, he was fine after they extracted it from him, or vice versa).

"Oh, gird your loins. I could have sworn you said 'girder'."

I went to that blog after Liz Ditz posted the link a couple days ago in a previous post here. I tried to read it but I just couldn't continue. The arrogance and ignorance of that woman and what she is inflicting on her son! And then boasting about her torture online for all the world to see? Why is Child Protective Services not beating down her door and removing him from her 'care' immediately? What state and county does she live in? I'll call them and make a report and give them the link for them to read for themselves that she's systematically giving her son a chemical colectomy. She has self diagnosed him with something she imagines is true and really she's just dissolving his colon. This makes me truly sick and ache with pain for the children subjected to this by their 'parents'.

I have an almost completely off-topic question, but don't know where else to ask. I have just been told that amber teething necklaces "work" because they produce succinic acid when the beads rest against the skin. As far as I can tell from Wikipedia, what the mother probably means is spirit of amber - butanedioic acid - which used to be used topically for rheumatism.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to my question, but you are educated, which I am not. My question is: would either butanedioc acid or succinic acid be produced by resting amber to the skin & would either be able to ease teething pain? Is there someplace on-line I can reference (besides here) when I give her my reply?

I truely appreciate any help you can give me - and thanks so much for the free education I'm getting! :)

Bonnie: This article http://autismum.com/2012/10/29/amber-teething-necklaces/ has some of the information you want

:( Self teaching is hard! I reread the wiki article & I think the two acids are the same thing.

Is there someplace on-line I can reference (besides here) when I give her my reply?

This seems like a reasonable summary at first glance.

@ Bonnie:

Amber appeals to those who believe in the power of the natural world and the wisdom of the ancients:
going back to the Romans, it was coveted as protection against evil and witches and as a healing substance; later European folklore involved making tinctures from amber.
TONS of lit on amber.

In other words- woo- but it can also be nice worn as a necklace FOR AN ADULT who won't eat it.

Amber appeals to those who believe in the power of the natural world and the wisdom of the ancients

A quick scan of the MDC forums quickly reveals that a good number of even this self-selected population thinks amber teething trinkets are a load of crap.

Bonnie

I think the two acids are the same thing.

You are correct. They are the same compound. Succinic acid is the older, “common” name. Butanedioic acid is the systematic name – the one assigned by the folks who set standards for things like completely unambiguous names for chemical compounds (the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry). The “but-“ means 4 carbon atoms, “-ane-” in the middle means each carbon in the center has 2 hydrogen atoms attached to it, and “-di-“ before the acid part of the name means there are two of those (one at each end).

Food for thought: the skin is an organ designed to keep things out of your body. There aren’t that many substances which are effective via topical application.

Thank you all SO much! It may not convince the mom - she's a true believer - but hopefully it will alert her to the strangulation/choking hazards.

It's amazingly difficult to explain placebos to people. I even know a vet who uses homepathy & accupunture on animals - he says it works. Those poor animals! :(

The thought that always goes through my mind when I think of amber teething things is that amber is not the most structurally sound of substances; wouldn't there be a risk of it shattering in a child's mouth? I don't know how sharp the bits would get, but it really just doesn't seem like my first choice. Oh, and a lot of the necklaces are rather small beads (since big pieces of amber can get a bit spendy for a teether). So "choking hazard" was my first thought with these.

Autismum's "friend" Martine at Skeptoid also wrote about amber teething beads and the choking hazard. Her second blog with links to her first blog is here. That Martine O'Callahan is just as feisty as Austismum, when it comes to child advocacy and safety. :-)

http://skeptoid.com/blog/2012/12/31/amber-for-teething-update/#comments

My daughter, when she was a few days before entering kindergarden, managed to swallow a penny. (She had "never" put a teething toy or any other toy in her mouth, before). She was hoarse and just to be cautious (toddlers manage to completely swallow quarters), we took her to the E.R. We were assured by the doctor that the coin was in her stomach, but the penny was lodged in her esophagus, according to x-ray. She was sedated and the doctor tried to extract it, but couldn't because she was a very petite little girl and the esophagus was swollen from the irritation. After an overnight stay in the hospital under mild sedation, a repeat x-ray located the penny at the juncture of the stomach and small intestine.

Yeah, I had to "retrieve" the penny.

I railed about the amber teething things - in particular, necklaces - in a previous thread here sometime ago - but I never did write Harriet Hall et al. at SBM to try to alert more people (American Academy of Pediatrics, etc?) to this woo-fad. There is some other commentary on the net - autismum had an excellent post on this, as did Jean Mercer. Dig it - parents wrap their babies' necks in choker necklaces. The rationale ranges from nonsense "biochemistry" (succinic acid) to complete woo of magnets & amber & folk wisdom. My stepson's wife is an associate professor of early child education and she does this amber crap - it's a crunchy-yuppie-hip fad. The amber necklace on the baby is a placebo for the parents. I think it's a strangulation hazard.
I've mentioned this to a few docs I know & they've not encountered it. But it's an established & growing fad.

@ Kruuth: I saw that study and other studies about exposures to traffic fumes, while living close to major highways, and exposures to herbicides and pesticides, increasing the risk for fetuses to be later diagnosed with ASDs. I'm not extremely impressed with those studies.

Offtopic: a new blog post with an advices for bookworm like me:

http://www.securivm.ca/2013/06/amazon-you-sometime-amaze-me.html

Alain

Veganism doesn’t protect you from gastrointestinal disease

No kidding. The last FBI outbreak I read about was traced to a frozen "organic" berry mix.

kruuth, my mother was a yogurt-for-canker-sores zealot as well. I wonder where that particular bit of folk wisdom originated.

Offtopic, I'm on a roll:

http://www.securivm.ca/2013/06/the-previous-post-made-me-think.html

Alain

Amazon sells a number of books advocating MMS, and a number of products which reference MMS while pretending to be something else.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-key…

Bonnie, here is something even better than amber necklaces for teething:
frozen bits of terry cloth

Take cheap terry fabric washcloths, get them wet, then put them in the freezer. When a teething baby fusses, give them one straight from the freezer. The cold numbs the gum a bit, and the rough terry cloth helps make the teeth break through the gums.

Make sure you have a few in reserve. The fabric is thin, so it thaws quickly.

Unfortunately it is not perfect. One child preferred to "teeth" on the breast. This one child took the longest to wean. Even as a college student she is still quite annoying, she refuses to take calculus. On the plus side she is the most reliable with finances. Go figure.

The thought that always goes through my mind when I think of amber teething things is that amber is not the most structurally sound of substances; wouldn’t there be a risk of it shattering in a child’s mouth?

Oddly enough, there seems to have been an attempt to study this (or rather, study if parents know this):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22925538

It's in French so I can only interpret what Google Translate's giving me, but it seems the parents they interviewed didn't care at all about the choking risks.

@Chris and Bonnie - a few people I know swear by mesh feeders filled with frozen fruit or vegetables.

Apparently, one of the babies in question will lay on the "OMG what is this? I'm dyyying mammy!" routine, until she is offered some frozen fruit or veg. Howling, flailing, eye-rubbing, and fist-gnawing that stops within. a millisecond of the stuff appearing. Peas, chunks of banana or apple, chunks of carrot, and the most hilarious (to me) - broccoli florets.

That's one way to get kids to eat veg I suppose, as something they associate with feeling better. Well that, or making vegetables verboten!

www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000GK5XY2/

Elburto, remember we must introduce food sequentially, just to make sure their tummies are ready. The under one year age teething bit is before most of this happens. I don't think it is a coincidence.

It would be interesting to make a rice cereal popsicle. Though I suspect that frozen fruit and veg would be fun. Something like frozen apple, pear or even green beans. Though they do no have the abrasive qualities of a terry cloth bit of fabric.

Peas, chunks of banana or apple, chunks of carrot, and the most hilarious (to me) – broccoli florets.

No batter? No deep-frying? Madness!

Has anyone tracked this woman down and called protective services?

Amber teething beads also carry the risk of the child ingesting small amounts of dinosaur DNA. If traces of HPV DNA can kill, who knows what dinosaur DNA might do? ;-)

Chris Hickie,

The worm was clear on cross sectioning (grossly-this wasn’t anything like needing to look a GMO fed piglet tummies), and I did consider sending it to pathology for a laugh.

OT, but some years ago I was working in clinical biochemistry in my favorite 'special functions' section, which did all the odd tests that didn't fit in anywhere else, including renal calculi analysis, which I especially loved - grinding things up in a pestle and mortar and doing chemical tests on them made me feel like a medieval alchemist.

One day I received a small stone that a patient had passed. The first step was to measure it and describe its appearance. It was at this point I realized that the 'stone' looked remarkably like a Rice Krispie. Further investigation, including a starch test, definitively confirmed my hypothesis. Sadly my boss censored the biting comment I put on the report.

I don't think this was a joke, I suspect that someone had dropped the stone and picked up the Rice Krispie instead by mistake.

I did not, however, taste it to prove it was a gummy worm (ugh).

Thankfully Benedict's solution replaced the old test for diabetes mellitus (and insipidus) before I started working in pathology.

elburto,

It took twenty minutes to convince him that the cramps and black stools were. the result of him eating the half birthday cake we’d left him in one sitting.

I used to volunteer to help out in the welfare tent at hippie festivals, which involved looking after lost children (and parents), giving minor first aid, talking down people having bad trips etc., which was often a lot of fun. On one occasion someone managed to blag us our own Turdis (chemical toilet), to avoid us having to use the public ones or the compost toilets.

Taking a leak in the said Turdis I noticed what looked like a huge amount of fresh blood, as if someone had just had a massive gut bleed. Realizing that if I was right, the person responsible required urgent medical attention, I returned to the tent and asked the assorted waifs and stray, and other volunteers, who had last used the Turdis as I was concerned they needed to see a doctor. Eventually a young woman sheepishly explained that she had eaten a very large amount of beetroot earlier that day.

It was a little embarrassing, not for me, as poking about in other people's poo is part of my job, but to her. I was relieved that was all it was, but I was later given a dressing down by one of the volunteer organizers, who told me I had behaved in a very unprofessional manner, embarrassing the poor woman like that. I asked her if it would be better for someone to bleed to death or face some minor embarrassment, for which she had no answer.

@elburto
Enemas are horrible. The administration (by someone else) feels degrading and can make you feel so vulnerable. The sequelae can be agonising, with severe cramping, nausea, feeling flushed, and all manner of unpleasant things.
-snip-

While I completely, completely agree with you about what that woman is doing being horrible, and about her likely motivations (I think a lot more of these autism 'treatments' are punishments than anyone wants to admit), I do take a bit of an issue with your characterization of enemas as universally horrible things. I don't think any kid should be subjected to regular, let alone daily, ones without a sound medical necessity, these aren't horrible to everyone, and whoever's administering it really shouldn't make you feel degraded, (Though I admit, that's probably hard to avoid when you're talking about a child who doesn't to take their medicine, so to speak. I utterly, utterly despised taking suppositories as a child, but frankly the meds I needed weren't available orally, and it maybe saved my life. But I digress.)

I'm just struck by remembering that when we covered klismaphilia in school, the textbooks were pretty explicit that most klismaphilia had its' roots in regular enemas administered during childhood, and how the person associated the sensation of being loved and cared for with the enema. It was highlighted as one of the few paraphilias that we actually know how it develops. I can't see how this would be the case if childhood enemas were routinely horrible things.

tl;dr: I agree this woman is horribly abusing that poor kid, but we shouldn't conflate enema-as-punishment with enema-as-beneficial-treatment

Even more OT, do moms who want all natural to prevent allergies know that the natural rubber teethers they give their babies are made from latex?

Yes, the dreaded “mommy instinct” strikes again.

That's one thing that irritated me since I started arguing with anti-vaxxers and autism quack followers: The deification of parents. Most of my life, it's been a relatively subtle meme. Only a foo doesn't respect his mama. Then it came into focus when trolls expected me to take a parent's memory as if it were as objective as a camera's recording. Some people have good parental instincts and intuition, but those things are not a substitute for medical or psychological knowledge, nor do they immunize parents against cognitive biases or bad memory.

It’s in French so I can only interpret what Google Translate’s giving me, but it seems the parents they interviewed didn’t care at all about the choking risks.

Along with the horrors of the main post, it's parents like that who scare me. And they're much more common. I'm not a parent, but I know that infants are especially vulnerable to things like that. It reminds me of a version of "sharks at the beach" issue of human estimation of risk: Which is more dangerous to an infant? A teddy bear with button eyes or a real bear? One encounter with a real bear would be deadly, but pretty unlikely to happen with most people. The teddy bear's button eyes, however, are a choking hazard and the infant is going to be around the teddy bear on a much more regular basis. There's a reason why so many toys have those warning labels.

@Bronze Dog - as there are whole sections of my childhood that I either don't remember or through the haze of time, don't know events actually occurred, I don't trust memories very much any more.....at least not as some concrete timeline of fairly subtle events.

Then it came into focus when trolls expected me to take a parent’s memory as if it were as objective as a camera’s recording. Some people have good parental instincts and intuition, but those things are not a substitute for medical or psychological knowledge, nor do they immunize parents against cognitive biases or bad memory.

My memories of Son of Prickly's infant/toddler years are mostly a blur now, and he's only six. I recall the few episodes when he was seriously ill, but what happened before and after? Pfft! That's why doctors keep medical records. Parental recall cannot be trusted, and I say that as a parent.

the woo-bespoke host’s insistence that SBM doesn’t know anything about parasitical infestation in non-Third World countries

Because it makes perfect sense that mainstream doctors and big pharma - well known for their aversion to money - would concentrate on providing for the bits of the world were patients are generally poor.

Also, why's this nonsense called "biomed"? There's nothing particularly biological about bleach, is there?

@Kruuth [#91]: Some clues point to the woman living in Malaysia. I don't know what authorities could bust in on her.

You guys are an utter disgrace to intelligence. MMS has never ever killed anyone - and Rivera has so far recovered over 93 children COMPLETELY of their autism symptoms.

Here is a video testimonial showing a kid and his mom that used Riveras method, which also involves pharmaceuticals like Mebendazole, not just MMS. Diet is also a huge part of her protocol.

http://mmsautism.org/index.php/Menu/miraculous-video-testimonies.html

@elburto

"@Chris and Bonnie – a few people I know swear by mesh feeders filled with frozen fruit or vegetables"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000GK5XY2/

That's exactly what I recommend over age five months or so. Safe, tasty and easy.
Amber necklaces give me pause because I can't imagine how they might help and I worry about foreign body ingestion. I really dislike necklaces of any kind around babies' and toddlers' necks.

@Chris: I also like frozen wash clothes for teething babies. Add a little breast milk to make them taste familiar. Works better than whatever amber might do.

woot - if you have any valid studies that show that MMS provides significant benefit for some medical condition, please share. From what's been discussed above and in previous discussions on this site, it sounds like it tears up the digestive tract for no good purpose.

Has Rivera published the results of her efforts including the healing protocol and success rates?

Dr Gordon - those sound like great recommendations. A frozen washcloth sounds very old fashioned, yet effective.

Here is a video testimonial showing a kid and his mom that used Riveras method, which also involves pharmaceuticals like Mebendazole, not just MMS. Diet is also a huge part of her protocol.

http://mmsautism.org/index.php/Menu/miraculous-video-testimonies.html

And what do I find on the site's home page? A big ol' Quack Miranda warning:

Medical Disclaimer:
The information presented on this website is not intended or implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. All content, including text, graphics, images and information, contained on or available through this website is for general information purposes only. Kerri Rivera, Autismo2 and affiliates make no representation and assume no responsibility, legal or otherwise, for the accuracy of information contained on or available through this website, and such information is subject to change without notice. You are encouraged to confirm any information obtained from or through this website with other sources, and review all information regarding any medical condition or treatment with your physician.
You are ultimately responsible for your own choices surrounding your health and the health of your children.

Sounds like she's really confident about the effectiveness of the "protocol," doesn't it? Nice try woot, but video testimonials are marketing tools, not scientific evidence.

The only thing that worked for our kids when teething was what my grandpa liked to call Tincture of Time. Or, as my wonderfully blunt great-aunt says, "This too shall pass." She's particularly fond of using that phrase when discussing digestive upset, due to the double entendre, but it works for most of the things parents have to deal with. Kids not sleeping, kids wetting the bed, kids wetting their pants, kids teething . . . most of these things pass on their own. It gets harder, not easier, as they get older; I think we intuitively understand that teething pains go away when teeth are done erupting, but remembering that adolescent angst is also temporary and not a permanent condition is rather harder -- especially since the child is old enough by then to notice you're just waiting them out rather than doing taking away their pain.

BTW, my great-aunt also likes to point out that bourbon is a great treatment for teething. Not for the child, but for the parent. :-D

Orac,

I'd like to hear your take on the latest Harvard study linking areas of higher pollution to rates of autism incidence two- to three- times higher.

Sample size? Subgroup analysis? Higher pollution areas typically being urban, therefore higher education rates, therefore higher awareness and ultimately higher rates of diagnoses? Or, finally, is there something to it?

The link to the report was on cnn.com, although I know SB doesn't favor hot-linking.

You guys are an utter disgrace to intelligence.

And this sentence is an affront to the English language.

MMS has never ever killed anyone

What happened to Silvie Fink?

– and Rivera has so far recovered over 93 children COMPLETELY of their autism symptoms.

So Rivera is practicing medicine without a license? Thanks for the tip.

"Here is a video testimonial showing a kid and his mom that used Riveras method, which also involves pharmaceuticals like Mebendazole, not just MMS. Diet is also a huge part of her protocol."

Holy Sh!t woot,...Rivera, who is not a doctor, is using a prescription antihelmintic drug to treat her patients for imaginary worms, before she prescribes industrial bleach enemas.

http://www.rxlist.com/vermox-drug.htm

Dr. Gordon:

@Chris: I also like frozen wash clothes for teething babies. Add a little breast milk to make them taste familiar. Works better than whatever amber might do.

I actually winced in pain when I read that. If I were still breastfeeding, the last thing I would want associated with chewing would be breast milk! It was bad enough that the youngest caused me to get several breast infections, but I would hate to think about her biting and chewing, especially as a two year old. (she is now a college student, and now prefers lattes)

Lurkers: you will note that both who thought that was a good idea do not have the capacity to breastfeed. I think I would still suggest just water on the terry cloth.

What happened to Silvie Fink?
According to Jim Humble, her husband murdered her and is using MMS as a scapegoat.

According to Jim Humble, her husband murdered her and is using MMS as a scapegoat.

Thank goodness he's using secure channels: "From his location in Africa, Jim Humble sent me, in encrypted form, his own assessment of Mr. Nash’s accusations...."

I'd like to think that this involves a one-time pad.

Chris,

To be clear, I left the concept of milk on the washcloth out of my comments on Dr. Gordon's recommendations. I don't know if it would have the effect you describe or not.

BTW - I find the term "breast milk" to be ambiguous. Wouldn't "human's milk" be more accurate and a clear parallel with sheep's milk, goat's milk, or cow's milk?

Fair enough, M O'B!

M O'B, sheep, goats and cows have teats.

Chris - very true. However, other primates have breasts.

Chickens and turkeys also have breasts, but as birds they do not produce milk.

BTW - almond milk, soy milk, and milk of magnesia do not count.

Actually, the analogous ruminant organ to human breasts is an udder. Teats are the things on the end.

I don't think Kerri Rivera was the only MMS pitchman at Autism One last month. I just found a slide show on the Autism One website for a presentation by an associate of hers, Andreas Kalcker. It is horrifying and the subject of a blog post in itself: http://www.autismone.org/sites/default/files/kalcker.pdf

My vocabulary has been expanded, and corrected. There were times when I felt too close a kinship to dairy cattle. It did not help that I had the short story "In the Barn" in Again, Dangerous Visions by Piers Anthony.

Human mammary gland nutritional secretion.

Or not.

I miss you all. I'll read David's notes about Paul's new book and come back tonight.

Best,

Jay

Scroll on down Sebastian Jackson's link to see the slide show featuring the butt and thighs of someone with a string in her rectum.

http://www.autismone.org/sites/default/files/kalcker.pdf

"What is in the gut?

Mucus in the stool?

Wait a moment
 
What mucus gland is
able to produce this?
 
Mucus is hydro soluble
 
At least it should be
 
If it is not mucus it can
be..."

lilady - that's just sad, and validates all the bad things that Edward Tufte says about PowerPoint.

Scroll on down Sebastian Jackson’s link to see the slide show featuring the butt and thighs of someone with a string in her rectum.

The depiction of the liver in the "Ammonia" slide is, ah, impressive. It's also a combination of two Wikimedia images.

OT (sort of) Jenny McCarthy likes to crunch the nuts in her salad commercial.

http://t.entertainment.msn.com/video?videoid=91920bcc-95ca-4400-b92c-33…

Jay Gordon @124

Human mammary gland nutritional secretion

I just have to say: thank you! Reading that gave me a much needed laugh.

@Passerby, #95:

@elburto
Enemas are horrible. The administration (by someone else) feels degrading and can make you feel so vulnerable. The sequelae can be agonising, with severe cramping, nausea, feeling flushed, and all manner of unpleasant things. -- SNIP --
I do take a bit of an issue with your characterization of enemas as universally horrible things.

I don't recognise your moniker, Passerby, and I'll assume you aren't a regular contributor. If you were, you would know elburto is extremely qualified to speak about the nature of enemas. I'm also left wondering if you've ever actually had one yourself. Although elburto is more than capable of defending herself, left me enlighten you on both points.

elburto, like me, suffers from Crohn's Disease. This is a painful, debilitating condition where part of the digestive tract becomes inflamed and ulcerated, and if it's bad enough, the ulcerated bit has to be cut out (I've had this twice). Sufferers get to manage a lifetime of gut cramps, nausea, weight loss, severe lack of appetite, diarrhea... and severe constipation. I categorise it as "severe" because we're not talking a couple of days, we're talking several days or even weeks.

And when the constipation is severe, enemas get employed. And I assure you, elburto is entirely correct in categorising them as horrible and degrading.

An enema is a liquid that's injected up the backside via a syringe or pipette device. It liquifies and flushes out whatever's up there, and if constipation is severe, several might be required.

What, I ask you, is not humiliating about someone shoving something up your backside to make you poo? If you're lucky, you can get the thing up there yourself. More often though, it's lying on your side with backside bared while someone else shoves the enema in.

And because enemas are designed to liquify whatever's up there, yes, the results are explosive, painful and disgusting.

I'm glad you at least recognised the appalling abuse this mother is subjecting her child to. For elburto, and me, who've had to endure these things quite a bit, they are bad enough. At least we know why it's happening, and have given consent. For a child who may not have the verbal skills to question, and probably doesn't know why.... trust me, the horror we feel is unbelievable.

Christine,

I've certainly been here long enough to know about elburto's situation, but I got what Passerby was saying. Though for a lot of us, even the *idea* of an enema is profoundly disturbing (to say nothing of actually receiving one), it cannot be denied that there are people who actually do enjoy them. Indeed, Rule 34 being what it is, I'm sure one can find rather more evidence to this fact than any of us really would care to see. People are just plain weird sometimes....

Actually, Mephistophes O'Brien, some birds (and according to my friend who did this research, there may be many more) DO produce 'milk'. http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/journal/birds-produce-milk-simil…

Please, tell me CPS can be involved. Please.

May just be mucus but Jojo's happy :) Better out than in!

Our friend needs educating on what the normal physiological role of mucus is.
It's there to protect the bowel, and lubricate the stools.
Why would it be "better out than in"?
How "un-natural" can you get.
Might as well bleed out someone's circulation by slitting their wrists, joyfully shouting "Better out than in!"

And is Jojo happy? Really, really happy? Harsh to say, but if Jojo is getting a real kick out of these enemas, then I don't hold out much hope for sexual normalcy in future relationships. Indeed, a pattern of repeated child enemas might leave Jojo open to future exploitative abusive relationships and abnormal behaviour.
However, IANAP, so what do I know.

PS: I see she has tagged her pics as "Ascaris lumbricoides" (round worm). These clumps of mucus and colonic mucosal casts are not round worms, any more than bits of vomited, semi- digested spaghetti are round worms.

accidie,

Well, that just changed my entire world. Thanks.

#133 - accidie

Are the milk producing birds members of the Paridae family?

About those awful Autism One PowerPoint presentation slides....

http://www.autismone.org/sites/default/files/kalcker.pdf

Dr. Andreas Ludwig Kalcker's day job is working with Kerri Rivera and Rev. Jim Humble...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItXb6yXntNY

Kalcker's blog; knock yourselves out...

http://andreaskalcker.com/index.php/en/health/autism

Is there anything I can do to land these criminal in jail? I'm dead serious.

Alain

@ Denice,

You survey these blogs and websites about practitioners of woo and also, parents (TMR spring to mind) who subject their child to woo. Do you have a list these websites? Mailing list and groups would be useful too.

Thanks
Alain

@ Alain:

Right now, I'm only regularly surveying a select few ( AoA, TMR, Natural News. Progressive Radio Network/ Gary Null.com)...
but I often look at Mercola, Gaia Health, Green Med Info, ANH, Natural Solutions Foundation, Bolen, hiv/aids denialists.. and others which presently escape me.

I might suggest looking at some of the anti-vax sites' facebook pages/ blog comments- which often lead to websites belonging to their readers- some who sell products and advertise services..

I see a few dynamic players emerging from the crowd @ TMR- MacNeil, Goes, Jameson- all of whom are pushing hard against the stony walls of reality.

I called the RCMP and the local police department and regarding the local police did not want to do anything regarding that. the RCMP was more forward looking. I will also consult with the sister of my best friend; she's a police officer.

Alain

Agreed, Calli. There are some *interesting* people in this world (asexual myself so I really don't get it).

My later thought was Passerby might be an advocate of colonic irrigation, which is basically one prolonged enema... which would really earn my wrath. If you have a healthy bowel, you don't *need* a colonic, no matter what their advocates say. And if your bowel ain't healthy, a colonic can make things worse.

Regarding the local police, every time I had a complaint to fill, they never were interested. Never. Matter of fact, I was vastly more often interrogated by the police than the reverse situation (having a complaint taken seriously) and it's frustrating.

Alain

WRT what the "worms" really are: The problem with the phrase "colonic mucosa" in this context is that most people don't know right off whether you would want to keep that in or get it out. While the phrase "shreddy bits of intestine" is less precise, it's horrifying in proportion to the reality with fewer A&P credits.

I think you're being a bit hard on Passerby. I reread the comment, and I don't think s/he was advocating enemas or colonic irrigation, just observing the interesting fact that some people really do enjoy them, specifically mentioning klismaphilia as a paraphilia.

The curebies inflict them on defenseless children, but there are adults who willingly seek them out. That was an observation, perhaps not all that relevant here but not advocacy by Passerby.

Passerby also mentioned that whoever administers an enema *shouldn't* make the patient feel degraded, which applies as much to enemas as to all the other things medical personnel do to patients. I'm sure professionals do their best not to make the necessary treatment degrading. Curebies, though -- I suspect they have less desire to avoid making the victim feel degraded.

@Sebastian: "When Kerri Rivera first appeared at Autism One a year ago, Julie Obradovic defended her on AoA. She was forced to furiously packpedal when she was called out on it by a “HuffPo” (!) contributor. This year, AoA completely ignored Rivera, probably because they knew discussing her would arouse negative publicity for Autism One and themselves"

I'm delighted to hear that AoA is distancing itself from the MMS folks - maybe they'll continue the policy of distancing themselves from disgraceful people and eventually become an organization that does good for autistic people and their families, but I don't expect such a radical change in approach anytime soon, I'm afraid.

#95, I get what you're saying, but I'd think it's WAY less likely for an autistic child to like (or just not be completely miserable) getting an enema. I haven't gotten an enema myself, but I am autistic and going to the salon for a haircut (water sprayed on my head and clips put in my hair) was agonizing. I was crying and in lots of pain and at first my parents thought I was acting up (not diagnosed yet), so it was awhile before they called it off, and by then I was crying and crying. So even if the person performing the enema is extremely kind and loving and respectful, it would still be highly likely to cause a great deal of pain and anxiety.

While there is still no video of RFK's speech at Autism One, there are testimonials about MMS working. I haven't looked at these - I'm not sure I could stand it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MMStestimonials?feature=watch

Also, please note that it seems that MMS is sometimes known as CD treatment.

My son has autism.

He's cute and incredibly violent, but you know, he's cute and also he can read very nicely so most people overlook his occasional punches to the face. As I sincerely doubt that this gentle forgiveness from strangers will last longer than his milk teeth, I find myself reading everything I can about autism.
It's clear that there are many unscrupulous folks making a fine living from the mild to severe torture of children and desperate parents. I am fortunate in that I possess a few nicely laid out boundaries concerning how I approach the more unacceptable aspects of my lovely lad's reasoning system and precisely when the 'cure' is completely disgusting and unethical. Although I know full well that there are vile people out there who would (and do) induce sickness in their own offspring for the sake of manageability , it did break my heart that few commenting here realised that the mother was also suffering from some kind of crazygodawfulproblemsofherown.
Having a child with few visible symptoms, no sleeping pattern to speak of and the occasional wash of euphoric fully capable interactions is very, very hard on any parent. The uncertainty of the future is particularly difficult to bear. Hating on a sleep deprived, desperate parent will only send that person running to their (actually very evil money making quackeriffic) 'friends' for comfort and validation.
No good person wants that.
Don't be enemies, you bold, brave, reason filled science bods! Be soothing to the victims, even the very stupid ones, it will bring more people to their senses (I know, I know that sticking bleach up your child's bottom should be fairly counter intuitive - but some people swear by dolphin brain wave repatterning exercises and the like - humans are broken). The quacks deserve the prison sentences and the rage. They deserve plenty of things I might consider quietly and yet eventually decide against because I am not some monster-god with acid spurting digits.

But. Someone needs to point out that the parents need help too.
It's very painful and confusing and full of guilt, this process of finding the right way to open up all the glory of the world to a disabled child.

Clever, rational people of the world, we need you! Desperately! You wonderful thinkers - you are our heros, don't you know?

This just popped up in my Facebook feed from a company that sells flavored coconut butters asking people to share as the project is promoting gluten free, soy free, etc diet to cure autism. Ugh! http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-road-to-recovery-healing-the-symp…

This is my number 1 pet peeve with so called "healthy food" people as they seem to throw science out the window. Tired of sites that are supposed to be about food touting anti-vax and no this! I don't see what the point of feeding your child healthy is if you are going to then feed them bleach.

Say what you will, but the protocol works. It's not bleach. It's got a dioxide molecule attached, making it benign to our tissues, and lethal to pathogens. Not child abuse at all. I've taken MMS, my liver enzymes are fine, my skin cleared up, my foot fungus is gone and my toothache went away with MMS. Chlorine Dioxide, not bleach. Sodium chloride is table salt. Not bleach either. Learn some chemistry, and learn about oxidation, the magnetics and Ph of chemicals. Then it will make sense. Suffer with all your ailments and keep telling us who have experienced wellness and are recovering our sick kids that we are hoodwinked. Take some Tylenol (which hospitalizes 26,000 people a year and kills nearly 500 a year taken as prescribed), it's legal, so it must be OK. Drink the FDA cool aide, go to a doctor who knows medicine (but not health, thanks to the AMA, The Rockefeller Foundation, and big Pharma). http://youtu.be/FrwZN1cPfX8

@Stacey Kirkland:

It’s not bleach.

Just because it's not the stuff you buy at the store doesn't mean it's not bleach. Napalm is soap, even though it's not sodium stearate.

It’s got a dioxide molecule attached, making it benign to our tissues...

"The EPA has set a maximum contaminant level of 1 milligram of chlorite per liter (1 mg/L) in drinking water." Also "Sodium chlorite is a strong oxidant and can therefore be expected to cause clinical symptoms similar to the well known sodium chlorate: methemoglobinemia, hemolysis, renal failure." As for Chlorine Dioxide:
"The EPA limits exposure to 0.8 mg/L for chlorine dioxide in drinking water and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration sets maximum exposure at 0.1 ppm in air for a maximum of 8 hours." Harmless? I don't think so.

I’ve taken MMS, my liver enzymes are fine, my skin cleared up, my foot fungus is gone and my toothache went away with MMS.

And what is your proof that the MMS was responsible for your improvements in health? All your symptoms can clear up over time unassisted.

Learn some chemistry, and learn about oxidation, the magnetics and Ph of chemicals.

You're adorable.

Sally, none of your claims are true. Chlorine dioxide is bleach (industrial-grade bleach at that), it isn't benign to human tissue, and forcing a child to injest it or recieve it as an enema is abuse.

@ Stacey Kirkland: Citation via a You Tube video...featuring "Reverend" Jim Humble. How quaint:

Cripes you are ignorant about the properties of MMS:

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

Stacey Kirkland,

It’s not bleach.

If you are truly convinced of this, please take your favorite piece of colored clothing, activate 15 drops of 'MMS' with citric acid, pour this over your much-loved clothing and leave it for a few minutes. Then come back here and tells me this stuff isn't a bleach. Also, consider that if this does that to your clothing, what does it do to your body?

It’s got a dioxide molecule attached, making it benign to our tissues, and lethal to pathogens.

Like fluorine dioxide, sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide, all of which are lethally toxic? If chlorine dioxide is benign to our tissues, I suppose you would be happy putting the activated 'MMS' in our previous experiment undiluted on some sensitive skin, or inhaling the gas. Dropping a few crystals of vitamin C into a few ounces of 'MMS' will generate lots of brown chlorine dioxide gas, and I can assure you that inhaling a lungful will instantly convince you it is not at all benign. If you inhale enough you will permanently damage your lungs and might even die, so I don't recommend this, I'm just pointing out how foolish it is to claim that chlorine dioxide is benign.
I’ve taken MMS, my liver enzymes are fine, my skin cleared up, my foot fungus is gone and my toothache went away with MMS.

Your liver enzymes are unlikely to be affected by MMS, even if you take enough to make yourself sick. It is a gastrointestinal irritant which will nauseate you and give you diarrhea in small doses, and cause methemoglobinemia in higher doses. Methemoglobinemia is the result of oxidation of hemoglobin which happens when people drink powerful oxidizing agents such as bleaches like chlorine dioxide. It can be fatal in extreme cases, and babies under 6 months of age are particularly susceptible.

As for foot fungus, you can also get rid of this with a blowtorch, or by soaking your feet in domestic bleach, but you are risking damage to your health by doing so, just as you are by using MMS. Why not use a fungicide which is designed to be more harmful to fungus than health human tissue?

Chlorine Dioxide, not bleach. Sodium chloride is table salt. Not bleach either.

You apparently don't understand the difference between hypochlorite, chlorate, chlorite and chloride, and actually believe it when people tell you that chlorine dioxide is not a bleach, when by every chemical or layperson's definition it is.

Learn some chemistry, and learn about oxidation, the magnetics and Ph of chemicals. Then it will make sense.

You should really have learned some chemistry yourself before coming to a science blog and embarrassing yourself by asserting such nonsense about chemistry.

I have worked for more than two decades in clinical biochemistry, so I know more than enough about "oxidation, the magnetics and Ph of chemicals" to know that what passes for "chemistry" touted on MMS websites is almost entirely nonsense designed to convince the ignorant and gullible to drink bleach.

I also have a rule never to take chemistry advice from anyone who can't spell pH, since that strongly suggests they don't have a clue what it means. Hint - pH relates to hydrogen ion concentration.

Take some Tylenol (which hospitalizes 26,000 people a year and kills nearly 500 a year taken as prescribed), it’s legal, so it must be OK.

That's not true. In the US acetaminophen causes 450 deaths and 56,000 emergency-room visits a year due to accidental or deliberate overdose. It is a very safe drug and certainly doesn't kill hundreds of people each year "taken as prescribed", though labeling could certainly be improved.

Consider that 19% of the US population use acetaminophen at least once a week, that's billions of doses each year. If billions of doses of MMS were taken each year I would be willing to bet their would be thousands of deaths, since it has no demonstrable benefit, and poses very serious risks.

See my post at # 139 above and the activities of Andreas Kalcker promoting MMS for autism treatment:

He's run into the long arm of the law and there are multiple change.org petitions up on the internet. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy:

http://dotmedia.ning.com/profiles/blogs/sweet-revolution-conference-aft…

Sigh. Hopefully the blockquote fail is obvious.

Apologies for misspellings and errors in my next to last comment. In an indignant rush.

Stacey, it appears you joined the MMS for Autism discussion board a few weeks ago. I urge you, for the child's sake, to read Krebiozen's post above with an open mind and seriously consider whether you want to inflict MMS on a child.

Learn some chemistry, and learn about oxidation, the magnetics and Ph of chemicals.

Says the Art major to the chemists!

She says dioxides make it safe, and then goes on to lecture us about learning chemistry?

Good gracious.

Wanna taste some fluorine dioxide? Never mind, you can't -- it ate through the container and then set the floor on fire. (It's actually got the insane quality of being able to set *ice* on fire.) "Having a dioxide attached", as you so quaintly put it, does not magically make a molecule safe. It really only means it has two oxygen atoms.

"Bleach", Stacey, is not a single chemical. It is a class of chemicals which can be used to remove pigment. Most do this through oxidation; one popular bleach is hydrogen peroxide, which has absolutely no chlorine at all in it. Some people try claiming that will cure all your ills too, but apart from some effectiveness as an antiseptic (and there are safer choices for that), it's really pretty nasty because it is so happy to oxidize things. (So happy you can even use it in rocket propellant. But I digress.)

Chlorine dioxide, meanwhile, is most definitely used as a bleach. That is its main use, worldwide -- bleaching wood pulp at paper mills, mainly, but also bleaching flour. The second most common use is disinfection of swimming pools (which is where most MMS users get it from) and treatment of drinking water to kill pathogens. It is very effective at killing pathogens, after all. At sufficient concentrations, its good at killing almost everything. Which is why you maybe should consider whether or not it's a smart thing to put in your body. It's certainly no better than unnecessary antibiotics -- and, if you care to look at more than just what the sellers are telling you, you'll see it might actually be a good deal worse, depending on how much of it you're taking.

Stacey (apologies for getting your name wrong above) you sugest we learn some chemistry. I suggest you do so, by examiningg the Material Safety Data Sheets for sodium chlorite (which can be found at http://www.cleartech.ca/msds/sodchlorite.pdf) and for
chlorine dioxide (which can be found at http://www.puremash.com/pdfs/MaterialDataSheetCIO2.pdf)

Clearly actuall, trained chemists don't agree that it's 'benign to our tissues'.

I have said this before here, but it bears repetition. When you are looking at a substances that will kill pathogens, which is the main use for MMS (unsubstantiated and implausible claims about "immune system stimulation" notwithstanding), the important things are:

1. How toxic the substance is to the target pathogen.

2. How toxic the substance is to the patient.

1. For chlorine dioxide the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) for Staphylococcus Aureus is about 200 mg/l. For ciprofloxacin the MIC for S. Aureus is less than 4 mg/l.

2. Ciprofloxacin is also far less toxic to mammals than chlorine dioxide. LD50 for chlorine dioxide in rats is 165 mg/kg, LD50 for ciprofloxacin in mice and rats is in excess of 5,000 mg/kg. Assuming humans are equally susceptible, a lethal dose of MMS in a 70 kg human would be 12 grams, a lethal dose of ciprofloxacin greater than 350 grams.

In summary, MMS is 50 times less toxic to S. Aureus than Ciprofloxacin, but 30 times more toxic to humans. In terms of therapeutic index, MMS is 1,500 times less safe and effective than ciprofloxacin.

This is not surprising since chlorine dioxide is a powerful oxidizing agent, like all bleaches, that specifically attacks the electron-rich centers of organic molecules, those comprising normal, healthy cells as well as pathogens. Any drug company would throw this out as a potential antibiotic, preferring to look for chemicals that target structures or processes that occur only in pathogens, not in healthy human cells as well. It seems insane that some people are claiming this non-specific toxic, cytocidal substance is a natural medicine.

All figures are from reputable sources, and can be provided should anyone dispute them - I don't want to send this comment into moderation by including them.

MMS (a.k.a., bleach) for autism: Just when I thought I was out...

oracknows — Thu, 21 Jun 2012 07:00:18 +0000

MMS (a.k.a., bleach) for autism: Just when I thought I was out...

The clip above says it all with respect to "miracle mineral solution" (a.k.a. MMS). Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in. And, as Yoda would probably put it, back in I am one more time. (How's that for mixing movie allusions?)

Let's recap. MMS is bleach. Specifically, it is a 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water that generates chlorine dioxide when diluted with citric acid-containing or other acid-containing foods, as instructed. This is a chemical used for water purification that a quack—yes, quack—named Jim Humble has touted as a miracle cure for just about everything from cancer to AIDS to a wide variety of conditions, serious and not-so-serious. There is no currently known valid medical reason to give this chemical to anyone to treat anything. None of this is (or should be) in serious dispute from a strictly scientific, medical, or ethical standpoint.

The next fact that is not in serious dispute is that a woman named Kerri Rivera, operating out of a quack clinic in Mexico, has been touting MMS as a "biomedical" treatment for autism. As part of the treatment, she advocates feeding MMS to autistic children every two hours over the course of 72 hours (her "72-2 protocol") and giving children MMS enemas three times a week. She admits that the side effects included at minimum diarrhea and fever. In fact, she says that the diarrhea is a good thing if it's "detox diarrhea" and that the fever means the immune system is being stimulated, thus making it a good thing as well. What is also not in dispute is that Rivera brought this message of bleaching autism away to the yearly autism biomed quackfest known as Autism One last month, making even some die-hard supporters of autism quackery cringe. Again, there is currently no known valid medical reason to give this chemical to any autistic child to treat autism. Again, none of this is (or should be) in serious dispute from a scientific standpoint.

From a quack standpoint, not surprisingly, it is. More surprisingly, people who seem to think they are more "reasonable" are also unhappy at how much outrage has been expressed at the revelation that there are people out there who think it's a good idea to feed children bleach and give them bleach enemas. More disappointing is that there are apparently people who, even though they more or less agree that there is no reason to feed children bleach or shoot it up their nether regions, are so very, very unhappy about the outrage supporters of science-based medicine feel over such child abuse.

One such person even wrote a long post that is in essence one long tone trolling, taking us all to task for "inflammatory" language in a post entitled OMG, Its Bleach! I was half-tempted to reply, "OMG, it really is bleach!" and leave it at that. But you all know me better.

The first complaint that we get is similar to other complaints about the focus on the MMS talk:

Take for example the latest craze gripping the blogosphere - an autism "treatment" that goes by the name of "Miracle Mineral Solution", or MMS, that has been around for years but recently had a presentation at Autism One.

There were many presentations at Autism One that covered a wide range of subjects. But which presentation does the remnant of the old neurodiversity movement focus on and hold up as the poster child of the conference? MMS, of course, and how it is so dreadful that immediate action is needed to stop the horror.

Actually, MMS was the poster child for the Autism One conference...this year. In previous years, it was treatments like chelation therapy or chemical castration for autism. MMS earned that "honor" this year because it is the one treatment that so illustrates the utter quackery and lack of science behind the vast majority of Autism One. However, it is by far not the only quackery touted at Autism One. It's not for nothing that I frequently refer to Autism One as a quackfest, because it is a quackfest. Chelation therapy, homeopathy, various unproven supplements, craniosacral therapy, Andrew Wakefield, and Mark and David Geier's chemical castration with Lupron for autism. (A roundup of last year's quackfest can be found here.) All of these quackeries, and many more, have been featured at Autism One over the years. This year alone, besides MMS quackery, we had the sorry spectacle of a Nobel Laureate reporting the results of his unscientific and unethical clinical trial in which autistic children were treated with long term antibiotics. I've been meaning to blog about his talk but have thus far been unable to locate a video of it online at the site where Autism One talks have been posted. (If anyone knows where it is, let me know.)

But, don't you know, we skeptics are all too mean. We shouldn't be getting worked up over MMS the way we are. At least, that's what this post tells us. The first reason, according to MJ, is because, even if MMS doesn't work and is probably a bad idea, it's really not bleach! Seriously. That's the argument the blogger, MJ, makes:

The first claim on the harm side is that MMS is bleach. Now, I don't know about you, but when I think of bleach, this is the stuff that comes to mind.

[A picture that looks like a Chlorox bottle without the logo.]

MMS is not the same as this stuff.

This stuff is (typically) a mixture of (roughly) 5% sodium hypochlorite while MMS is 28% sodium chlorite. While the names sound quite similar, they are not the same thing nor do they have the same properties. The best thing you can say is that they are similar chemicals that do similar things.

I laughed heartily when I read this. MMS is not bleach because it's not sodium hypochlorite? It's not bleach even though they are similar chemicals that do similar things? Seriously? He even goes so far as to say:

A better and less confusing way to rewrite the sentence is that MMS is a bleach to indicate that it is a bleach in the technical and more generic sense of the word. As in (again, Wikipedia), a bleach is "a number of chemicals that remove color, whiten, or disinfect, often via oxidation."

So no, MMS is not bleach in the common use of the word, but you might be able to say that MMS is a bleach.

Talk about a long run for a short slide. Talk about pedantry that is in essence a distinction without much of a difference! MMS is not bleach but it is a bleach? So calling MMS bleach is wrong and unnecessarily inflammatory? Regular readers know how much pedantry annoys me, and this is pedantry that would need to be diluted to homeopathic levels to make it cease to be annoying to me.

A lot of familiar arguments are then trotted out, such as how chlorine dioxide is used to purify water and how, if you've ever gone swimming in a swimming pool, you've gone "swimming in bleach." Believe it or not, most people actually probably do know that the chemicals used in swimming pools are bleaches or bleach-like, given that the smell of a swimming pool is similar to that of bleach. It's all a matter of two things here: the dose making the poison, the difference between swimming in something and drinking it (or having it shot up one's nether regions), and the fact that there is no reason to think that using this particular form of bleach (I say this in deference to MJ's pedantry) has any scientific plausibility whatsoever as a treatment for autism.

Particularly bad is the part of the argument where he says that the target for MMS is 1 ppm and that tap water can have up to 0.8 ppm chlorine dioxide. If that were the case, then way bother with MMS? Just give your kid tap water to cure autism! Of course, it's not the case. All one has to do is to look at Rivera's protocol, something MJ apparently didn't bother to do. In any case, as has been explained before several times, in the comments of various posts (for instance, this one and this one—damn my inability to link directly to comments in the new blog!), given that chlorine dioxide is approved in drinking water up to a maximum concentration of 0.8 ppm (or 0.8 mg/L), if a child took in 1-2 L per day of water (the amount depends on weight), then that would be around 0.8 to 1.6 mg of chlorine dioxide per day. Rivera's recommended protocol involves working the dose up to 8 to 24 drops per day (1 to 3 drops administered 8 times a day), depending on the child's weight. Now, it's been previously calculated that a drop of MMS contains roughly 10 mg of sodium chlorite, which generates around 8 mg of chlorine dioxide. This means giving children between 64 and 192 mg of chlorine dioxide per day, depending on the child's weight. That's up to 120 times what even an older child could reasonably expect to be exposed to through drinking tap water. And, of course, this neglects the fact that most children don't drink just tap water; usually they drink other things and don't drink nearly 1 to 2 liters of tap water in a day. Under real world conditions, the math would work out even worse than what I've estimated. This makes MJ's conclusion even more wrong-headed:

So, the idea that giving this mixture to a child is some sort of child abuse or torture is just plain silly. If that level of exposure is torture, I would hate to see what these people would say about me letting my children spend hours in the pool everyday.

One notes how assiduously MJ avoids mentioning that part of Rivera's protocol involves MMS enemas. One wonders why. Actually, one doesn't at all. Doing so would call attention to his straw man argument that the characterization of MMS use as torture was based primarily on how parents feed MMS to autistic children in the hopes of curing them. That's not what disturbed people the most (although it is plenty disturbing in and of itself). What disturbed people the most, and rightly so, is the administration of enemas to autistic children, who frequently have sensory issues that makes such sensations more distressing to them than even to neurotypical children. Indeed, giving neurotypical children enemas three or four times a week without a clear therapeutic rationale based on science could be characterized as child abuse. The situation is even worse for autistic children.

Sadly, MJ then repeats the nonsensical arguments previously used by the Phaelosopher, namely that, because real drugs have side effects, such as headache, fever, and nausea, then we shouldn't be so concerned about side effects of MMS, which MJ admits are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, symptoms of severe dehydration. He even admits that there is almost certainly no therapeutic benefit. Unfortunately, that admission doesn't stop him from laying this jaw-dropper of a false equivalency on us:

So, the side effects of MMS are very similar to those that can happen when using other common treatments. Does that mean giving Aripiprazole to your child when it isn't clear that there will be benefits "child abuse"? Does the medical profession's constant overuse of antibiotics qualify as torture?

The mind boggles.

MJ also has no understanding of clinical trial ethics and science-based medicine. He ends up concluding that MMS probably doesn't work, but asserting that there's no evidence that it doesn't work. He even appears to view this argument as a reason not to dismiss MMS or criticize the parents using it! However, he ignores that not only is there no prior plausibility for MMS as an autism treatment (i.e., no scientific reason to think that MMS would work to reverse autistic symptoms). This lack of at least a modicum of prior plausibility means is that, at least right now, it is unethical even to do a clinical trial unless there is some compelling supportive evidence, which there isn't. The Helsinki Declaration regarding the protection of human subjects clearly states that, before a clinical trial is ethically justified, there has to be scientific reason to think a treatment of work in the form of preclinical studies (biochemistry, cell culture, and animal studies) supporting the use of the treatment. MMS fails on all these counts, which means that if it's unethical even to do a clinical trial with MMS for autism, then it's even more so to use MMS to treat autism in the absence of evidence. That's why, when MJ pleads, "So, how about we all turn down the rhetoric a little?" my response is:

Hell, no!

Now can I get away from this topic for a while? Just a little while?

oracknows Thu, 06/21/2012 - 03:00

Tags

autism

complementary and alternative medicine

miracle mineral solution

MMS

complementary and alternative medicine

Categories

Medicine

OMG, Its Bleach!

OMG, it's made of people!

OMG, it's full of stars!

OMG, it's a trap!

Yeah, no reason to worry, none at all. Ever used bleach to decontaminate your hands because your microbiology lab ran out of soap? Give it a try and come back telling me that ordinary, low concentration bleach is harmless to human's skin.

Move on, we are an hedge. No, really.

Are corrosive substances the latest fad in woo land?

You have MMS, and I saw Blackcats mentions of 'Black Salve' (Zinc Chloride) in prior posts (and the awful images of its effects).

I wonder how long before they start on battery acid (it re-energises the cells!) or peroxides (kill the autism germs!).

Here's one for Orac ( to get his mind off bleach):
today's *belles lettres de mamans pensant* airs the interesting hypothesis that increases in aggression and un-ruliness by her autistic child co-vary with the phases of the moon.

Full moon's the worst time.

I swear, I'm not making this up!

@ Heliantus: Have you ever tried to avoid excoriating your hands, while scrubbing the green moss off outdoor deck railings with a bleach solution, by using...and ruining...a perfectly good pair of thick latex gloves?

If the solution burns holes in the gloves...just imagine the damage to a child's digestive tract. Ouch!

"the remnants of the old neurodiversity movement..."

Remnants? Does the poster mean the *majority* of parents of autistic children who live in the real world and have chosen proven methods of speech, OT, and other therapies to help their children adapt and thrive?

One thing I have observed of MMS discussions. The probability that an MMS advocate will invoke a conspiracy about the FDA and / or "big pharma" is almost 1.

It's like Godwin's law but with crazy paranoid alt health people.

I don't know about other countries, but around the late 1800's in England, drinking bleach became a popular mode of suicide. A horrible death, with the mucosa of the oesophagus and stomach being sloughed off, it made an aspirin OD seem humane in comparison (and they are bad enough).

This stuff is (typically) a mixture of (roughly) 5% sodium hypochlorite while MMS is 28% sodium chlorite. While the names sound quite similar, they are not the same thing nor do they have the same properties.

This sounds like MJ is trying to repackage the argument that science-based types used to address anti-vaccine claims that vaccines contained antifreeze. He may have figured it worked well to address the antifreeze nonsense, so it must work for this, too!

or peroxides (kill the autism germs!)

Ooh. Now that would be interesting. I wonder what they would do when they find out that hydrogen peroxide, for instance, can act as a mutagen.

** Shilling for Todd W. here...on a *positive note* Texas has lifted Mark Geier's medical license...only three more states still *permit* him to *practice*

http://silencedbyageofautism.blogspot.com/2012/06/mark-castrate-em-geie…

Note to Todd W. If your Quacktion (TM) figures ever get manufactured, I expect my large ** shill discount for the entire set.

One of the points missed in the dismissal of MMS as a viable cure for autism anything, is the delay in getting real, tested protocols to market.

The years and cost required to develop and test real drugs is long and enormous. Parents with a 5 year old severely autistic child will likely see that child grow through adolescence before a treatment proposed today, assuming it works at all, can reach the market.

This is a big reason, in my estimation, for the success of woo, including but clearly not limited to, MMS. You can have it now and feel like you are taking a proactive step to help your kid. If SBM takes too long, warrior moms must act. Or something.

Guess what popped up in the random ad space at the top of the page for me?

MMS MIRACLE 4 OZ MMS $8
J. Humble Approved! Free Shipping Professional Grade MMS & Activator
www.buymms.biz

@lilady

Thanks for the plug!

As to the Quacktion Figures, alas, they will likely never become real toys. Legalities and all that.

It's not really bleach - you know, the kind with a Chlorox label! It's just a potent oxidizer.

Well, I feel better now.

IMO MJ's statement

But which presentation does the remnant of the old neurodiversity movement focus on and hold up as the poster child of the conference? [Emphasis mine]

is of a piece with such claims as:
- the old (science-based) guard of medicine is getting swept away by the 'new paradigm' (of re-branded quackery)
- increasing numbers of scientists question the consensus behind {evolution, global warming, take your pick}

and suffice to say, makes me rather suspicious.

"A lot of familiar arguments are then trotted out, such as how chlorine dioxide is used to purify water and how, if you’ve ever gone swimming in a swimming pool, you’ve gone 'swimming in bleach.'"
I've gone swimming in the Dead Sea. I wouldn't drink a cup of that water and I certainly wouldn't want it shoved up my bum.
If I had ever ordered a bleach enema for a patient, no matter what I thought the indication was, I would have been out of a job, out of a license, and facing assault charges, in very short order.

Someone keep track of which Autism or if ANY alt-med groups repudiate the use of MMS.

I'm somewhat amazed that when it's pointed out that drinking a bleach solution or administering bleach enemas is BAD, no group has said "Well....we need to rethink our all inclusive alt-med philosophy, because this makes us look like dangerous simpletons.".

Someone else seems to have set up a website, or a blog, devoted to MMS and autism.

I found this scathing screed about Todd Drezner and his Hu-Po story last night. The writer not only manages to defend MMS with all the same arguments Orac mentons above, but even worse, attacks Drezner for not trying to "fix" his own son. The post says that MMS would put Drezner and his film out of business, among other sickening comments and personal attacks. Such as:

Drezner’s investigative journalism is suspect. If he has a press badge, it may have come from a Cracker Jack box. His accusations are ulterior and groundless. Does he really think Kerri Rivera has a stake in the sale of sodium chlorite? Does he really think she doesn’t love her son and would pour common household bleach down his throat? Did he speak with her regarding the 38 cases of Autism helped by chlorine dioxide therapy? Did he ask to speak to the parents of those children? Did he write the webmaster of the “MMS Website” (miralcemineral.org) and ask for any evidence of their claims? Did he really do any investigation at all? Nope.

Grant it, MMS and chlorine dioxide may not be an end-all answer to ASD, only courageous parents will know, but Drezner will never know; and sadly, neither will his son. That’s because his Dad puts big profits before little people, even his own little people.

Very few things are more abhorrent than a parent who would exploit their child for fame and fortune. How sobering it might be to one day learn how your own greed and ignorance deprived hundreds of thousands of their right to knowledge that might have given them a fuller life.

Why would anyone want to watch a documentary produced by a hopeless father who’s resigned himself to the status quo? Drezner would have all parents of Autistic children buy his DVD and join him in his march to mediocrity. Drezner’s son deserves his father’s honest inquiry; because if a father won’t fight for his own son, who will?

It's a nasty piece of writing. Here's the part about MMS:

Drezner seems to understand “value, emotion, and urgency”, the three keys to effectively marketing to human nature. And obviously, because he’s published on Huffington Post a whopping 15 times (all adverts for his DVD), readers might assume he knows “bleach” from a hole in the ground.

Unfortunately for Drezner’s readers, this is not the case. First of all, the word “bleach” merely means “to whiten”. In a chemical sense, this is most often done via “oxidation”. If we were all to follow Drezner’s and Willingham’s lead, we might as well stop breathing, since O2 has a higher oxidation potential (1.3v) than chlorine dioxide (.95v).

Drezner and Willingham try to confuse readers into thinking chlorine dioxide, the topic of Rivera’s lecture, is the same as everyday household bleach (sodium hypochlorite). That is exactly the same propaganda recently employed by the Food and Drug Administration to curb public interest in the grassroots sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide movement.

However, based upon clinical research, a 1993 U.S. Patent (No. 6086922) states the following facts about sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide:

“It is therefore quite unexpected that, with an intravenous administration of an appropriate chlorite matrix in the appropriate concentration, HIV viruses can be directly combated in the blood… The chlorite matrix solutions of the present invention also do not exhibit adverse effects such as severe cytotoxic damage and the like, typically associated with highly toxic chemicals which are administered intravenously [i.e. vaccines]. The chlorite matrix solutions of the present invention further are capable of inactivating the HIV virus to thereby inhibit infection of undamaged cells.”

The website: http://www.mmsautism.com/

I'm a bit surprised by the application of the term "neurodiversity movement" to SBM. Soi-disant neurodiversity advocates I've encountered have been critical of mainstream medicine, for trying to treat what, according to them, isn't pathological.

@Marc Stephens,
A poster on LBRB with the nym Francesca has a that site linked to her name. Oddly, rather than calling it Miracle, s/he calls it Master Mineral Solution.

S/He started to throw out oxidation potentials but was shot down pretty quickly by Sullivan and others. Also, completely unable to see the value in linking to studies showing efficacy. I wonder why.

@ MikeMa: Good points you raised about alternative *treatments/cures* for autism.

I'm sure when gullible parents brought their children to quacks and DAN! doctors they did some research about the use of chelation, HBOT and Lupron therapies for heavy metals toxicities, treatment of gangrenous limbs and cancers and central precocious puberty. They just *assumed* that their quacks and DAN! doctors opted for *off label* treatments.

The lawyer/scientist/*journalist* at AoA probably did some research into stem cell therapy before he took his daughter offshore for intrathecal infusions of "G-d knows what noxious substance" for *treatment/cure* of her autism.

I just don't see any future for MMS bleach to be used for any *off label* *treatment/cure* of any disease or disorder.

@ Lilady

Actually, yes, I did notice that latex gloves are not much protection against blench and many organic solvents.

If the solution burns holes in the gloves…just imagine the damage to a child’s digestive tract.

I think I can, quite vividly. I was just telling myself I'm over-reacting. Surely these people using MMS will notice it, yes? Yes?

MikeMa,

From my reading I believe the original name Humble came up with was Master Mineral Supplement. He ran into some legal issues calling it a supplement (implying it was intended for human consumption) so he tweaked the name to Miracle Mineral Solution. Because anything with the word "miracle" of course gives it more credibility.

Maybe some older believers still mix up the two names.

By the way, i was reading the spam ad that pops up here for sodium chlorite powder ("best prices!"). It takes one pound of sodium chlorite mixed with one pound of citirc acid to create 32 fluid oz. of MMS. That seems like a lot of solids suspended in a relatively low amount of water.One supporter claims it tastes like oranges.

Did mj just turn his comments at LB/RB into a blog post despite being totally shown up by Sullivan, Science Mom and others?

@ Marc Stephens: Oh Cripes, she has a diary up and it appears the is bathing her child in bleach and may have taken her child off anticonvulsant medication, as well.

I think I've encountered and tangled with this *mother* on other blogs.

Meanwhile, Todd Drezner's blog is still going strong at the Ho-Po The overwhelming majority of posters are labeling MMS for what it is; child abuse. The usual deranged crank posters are trolling there as well...more fun for the RI Regulars to call them out for their off-topic inanities.

Good job misrepresenting what I wrote.

If anyone here actually cares what I did say , I would suggest that you click on the link in the post and read the original for yourself.

Has anyone noticed Humble is now promoting a "new and improved" MMS 2? The best news is, according to Humble, you can make it yourself by buying swimming pool shock granules and putting them in capsules. Pool shock is about 70% calcium hypochlorite. One pound per 10,000 gallons water. What's the concentration when used as MMS?

MMS2 is composed of calcium hypochlorite - which turns into hypochlorous acid in the body, which is something our body usually makes in very small quantities and is used by the immune system to fight disease. For various reasons, someone might be deficient in the myeloperoxidase that the body needs to make the hypochlorous acid. MMS2 is commonly sold OTC as "pool shock" (and it doesn't have chlorine, not to worry, but it smells so strongly, it is usually dosed in a capsule with water before and after). The water is also necessary to change the calcium hypochlorite into hypochlorous acid. BTW, there are a number of products sold as "pool shock" - you would want to get only the calcium hypochlorite. It's going to come in various "percents" - and traditionally we use the 65% or more calcium hypochlorite.

Both MMS1 and 2 work on an oxidation principle. For most people, MMS1 is sufficient to handle whatever is going on. MMS2 is usually added in life threatening situations.

This just keeps getting more and more depressing.

Lil: off topic, but I only just ventured to the Ho-Po for the first time due to the Drezner piece. Is that "Sharon" woman for real? Has she been posting stuff like that for a long time? She ranks up there with rustichealthy from Orac's "friend's" blog for sheer lunacy.

Blimey, MJ didn't get enough of an education at LB/RB about his innane pedantry, he had to write his own post whining about it? His carping amounts to his usual defense of biomeddlers whilst trying to appear the 'rational impartial' spokesperson for something and trying to deflect attention away from the crankfest of AoA and their 'offerings' .

Heliantus:

I think I can, quite vividly. I was just telling myself I’m over-reacting. Surely these people using MMS will notice it, yes? Yes?

I fear not, Heliantus. Remember: folks using black salve (which causes severe chemical burns) think it's doing only good things, even when they get it somewhere else on their bodies and see it do its nastiness there. I hope some will figure it out, but if you're far enough down the rabbit hole try try MMS, you probably aren't seeing properly anymore.

Chelation and Lupron were bad enough, but being approved pharmaceuticals used off-label probably stopped criminal prosecution. MMS is not approved anywhere as a medical treatment for anything, and it's patently obvious it's doing harm; surely it's only a matter of time before CPS intervenes in one of these cases? I can only hope. I put it on a par with the vegan couple who fed their baby a vegan formula that they'd come up with themselves, even as the baby starved to death; they did face criminal prosecution, and they should. They think they're doing what's right, and they're living by their beliefs, and most likely doing it all out of love, but that doesn't change that what they're doing is horrible for the child. They go after parents who use prayer to treat meningitis; they should go after these parents too.

@ Marc Stephens: Did you happen to read the MMS *Fact Sheet* on that link you provided? It's a hoot!

The MMS *Fact Sheet* mentions the support of an MMS supplier whose operation was shut down by the FDA and whose *cause* has been taken up by the "U.S. Observer"

The "U.S. Observer" is, as yet, an untapped goldmine for any science blogger:

http://www.usobserver.com/archive/may-12/MMS-targeted.htm

Someone else seems to have set up a website, or a blog, devoted to MMS and autism.

It's registered to one Guillermo Rivera, "Mano a Mano," with a Verisign contact. The PayPal donation link sends money to kerririvera@yahoo.com. I'll skip the rest.

@ Marc Stephens:

"Lil: off topic, but I only just ventured to the Ho-Po for the first time due to the Drezner piece. Is that “Sharon” woman for real? Has she been posting stuff like that for a long time? She ranks up there with rustichealthy from Orac’s “friend’s” blog for sheer lunacy."

I nailed that "Sharon" woman months ago on the Ho-Po, when she posted one of her many rants against vaccines and against *Big Pharma*

That "Sharon" woman claimed to have her *illustrious* career as a "bookkeeper and whistle blower at HHS" cut short because of damage from a contrast material used during a medical procedure. She's a proven pathological liar, science illiterate, and an egocentric resident troll. Kelly M. Bray, Autismum and I, have had some great fun poking fun at her and informing her that her brain droppings are off-topic and offensive.

The folks promoting MMS would fail an introductory chemistry course.

My personal favorite line was (paraphrasing) "The ClO2 ion is able to rip up to 5 electrons..."

Which type of ion? There's a cation and an anion.

ClO2- is called chlorite, not the 'chlorine dioxide ion'.
ClO2+ is called chloryl. Cl here is indeed +5, however the 'ripping of up to 5 electrons' isn't going to happen quite as they wish, since it reacts VIOLENTLY with water and other organic compunds (blood, the lining of your intestines, etc).

These idiots are poisoning their kids.

@MJ

How, specifically, have I "misrepresented" you? Note that I did provide a link to your original post so that people could judge for themselves if my assessment of your pedantic picking of nits and verbal prestidigitation was fair.

What really gets me is that you can buy MMS, black salve etc. from Amazon.

@ Calli

surely it’s only a matter of time before CPS intervenes in one of these cases?

Oh yeah. The earlier the better.
Unless our woo-loving Libertarian politicians get their utopia of freedom for all, responsibilities for no-one.
I didn't realize until now, but since Dingo199 described the damage of MMS to the children's bowels (to quote him from the previous MMS thread):

Pictures of “parasites/worms” emerging after MMS purging are nothing more than strips of fibrinous material and bits of intestinal mucosal lining that has been stripped away from the bowel

I went from merely concerned to outright horrified. I think I'm in shock, actually.
These idiots of caricature of parents are skinning their children alive.
I'm trying to usually cut some slack at people which are acting out of ignorance or misguidance, but not here, not anymore.
If you are so far down the un-reality hole that you will only wake-up if someone slap you hard, and you are abusing your children in the process, then someone has to slap you hard. Repeatedly.

They go after parents who use prayer to treat meningitis; they should go after these parents too.

They are already not going often enough, and harsh enough, at these other parents, in my opinion.
And if a party touting "family values" and/or strong support of religion come to power, they will no longer go at anyone.

MJ made a large number of comments at Left Brain/Right Brain, so I think I've got the gist of his argument without reading his blog.

When given the chance to stand up for what is right. When given the chance to stand up against dosing disabled children with a chemical with no biological plausibility that it might help, and evidence that it is making them sick.

When given the chance to have his voice heard, he chose to defend his own unique definition of the word "bleach".

@MJ
You said MMS was not bleach. By any reasonable measure, that statement is bullshit.

You were asked repeatedly to lay off the nits and show solid, scientific evidence that MMS is helping anyone outside a laundry. You failed to do so.

You want to try again?

Some of those claims made me want to put my head through my monitor, and my mental reaction was to curse a blue streak.

Again - I want to see the how many autism alt med groups denounce this garbage for what it is. Or be labeled enablers, because truthfully that's what they are.

IV chlorite solution? That sounds lethal, or something a heroin addict would accidentally do.

From Humble

MMS2 is usually added in life threatening situations.

Situations which are going to happen after a few cycles of MMS 1. Nice idea, to create an even more dangerous form for the coup de grace.

and it doesn’t have chlorine, not to worry

Yeah, it just has hypochlorite.
Mr Humble, would you like to drink some prussic acid I happen to have nearby? Not to worry, it doesn't have any cyanide.
(disclosure: no, I don't have any)

which turns into hypochlorous acid in the body, which is something our body usually makes in very small quantities

Inside specialized vacuoles of our white cells, you frecking lying sleazy shitbag.
Fair warning: Never come next to me, Mr Humble, or any of your associates. I would not be able to guarantee your security.

@ Marc...Sharon is insane.

She posted this....
"
The keyboard skeptics main goal is to discredit and spin. Here are some tools you might find useful.

1. Never get into an argument over science with a keyboard skeptic they make things up as they go along and consume an enormous amount of your time. It's best not to engage with them.

2. Put them on the defensive by constantly attacking the reasons they are posting. After all they have anointed themselves judge, jury and executioner of anything that isn't "con med".

3. Don't back down ever; most good doctors appreciate us shining a light on them.

4. Turn the debate around to benefit society. They are trying desperately to dominate the debate on healthcare but there is no debate, our system is broken and needs to be fixed and you are doing society a favor by pointing out the waste, fraud and abuse in the status quo. "

I posted this.........

"Let me help you Sharon. I will translate your tools for you so they are easier to understand.

1. Never get into an argument over science. We would not know science if it bit us on the butt. If confronted with scientific evidence that we are wrong change the subject or go to another thread. We have the power of slogans, anecdote, truthiness, and factoids. Use them.

2. Put them on the defensive by attacking them personally. An ad hominum attack is perfect when we are caught looking stupid and desperate.

3. Don't back down ever, even when we are shown to be completely wrong. That is the best time to double down on the stupid. Make up things as you go.

4. Change the subject as often as you can. If they show we are completely wrong about biology, chemistry and immunology as they always do, run. Get philosophical, get off topic.

Hope that helps SH. "

It’s a nasty piece of writing....

If we were all to follow Drezner’s and Willingham’s lead, we might as well stop breathing, since O2 has a higher oxidation potential (1.3v) than chlorine dioxide (.95v).

Not that Kerri isn't also down with ozone, of course.

At least the autism/MMS boosters haven't caught on to MMS 2 yet.

Maybe as suppositories? To supplement the enemas? As if that area of their child's posterior isn't already raw and irritated enough. That's just proof that the MMS is working!

Hey, I'm onto something here. See you all in Mexico.

@ OMG MJ...have you forgotten your good manners and not thanked Orac for plugging your blog? It is considered "good form" to thank a fellow blogger or poster for plugging your blog (See Todd W's post back at me, above.)

Try to remember that you should be thanking Orac for the "plug" and for giving you the forum to "clarify" your statements about the properties of MMS. We are all awaiting your clarification.

BTW MJ, I find the tone of your blog somewhat offensive...

-Your ability to straddle the fence when it comes to MMS *treatments/cures* for autism.

-Your pretense of concern for division within the autism community

-Your non-empathy for the hapless children who are subjected to oral bleach doses, bleach enemas and bleach baths.

-Your feeble attempts to defend child abusers

So...give it your best *shot* MJ. Prove to us, that Orac and o posters on this thread have wrongly accused you of pandering to the quacks, the parents who do these *treatments* and the MMS *treatment* apologists.

Kelly and lil,

Thanks for the update on Sharon. I pretty much figured her out just by reading her MMS comments. I presume she spews on other health-related boards, but it's always one message repeated ad nauseum.

I'm surprised people like Sharon haven't discovered RI or SBM--they'd have a field day. Even that deluded shotgun-packing vitamin shill rustichealthy has never discovered Orac's blog, and there's certainly enough cross-posting that a Google search would bring her here.

@ Marc Stephens:

"I’m surprised people like Sharon haven’t discovered RI or SBM–they’d have a field day."

Au contraire...have you any idea how carefully (easy on the snark and sarcasm), I chose my words to get past "moderation" on the hive? (How did my advice to her to stick the MMS solution into her own place "where the sun don't shine, make it past the censors?)

It would be a "field day" for me, if she came posting here with her drivel.

@Anj - found an interesting post on Gaia Health about MMS. The gist of it is that it's obviously poison, but it just goes to show how the REAL enemy is still the FDA, since they don't do anything about it. Not really what you're looking for, but interesting just the same.

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles301/000308-mms-is-pure-poison-but-th…

*Yet another "health freedom" site about sticking it to the man, nature good and science evil, etc.

@Marc Stephens:

I certainly wasn't happy to read that blog about me. But I was comforted that it appears to be appout a bizarro fantasy person who shares my name, but nothing else. It also takes place in a world where the economics of independent documentary filmmaking are very different than they are here in the real world.

I'm working, semi-successfully, to develop a thick skin and move on. Thanks for the support.

OT: just something more lighthearted to take our mind away from MMS, but still inside alt-med world.

PZ Myers just reported being "expelled" by the organizer of the Canary party national convention, about 12 minutes after he registered.
As he said, that was fast.

@Orac,

The main misrepresentation was that you missed the entire point. Nowhere do I suggest that MMS is a good thing or defend its use, quite the opposite in fact. I think I quite clear that using MMS is a bad idea, a fact that you failed to even mention in your rant.

You also misrepresented me, personally, with statement such as "MJ also has no understanding of clinical trial ethics and science-based medicine". You don't know anything about me or what my background is, nor have you apparently bothered to take the time to find out what I understand or don't understand, you simply go straight for the personal attacks.

No, the main point - the one that you missed - was that the use of hyperbolic rhetoric is counter productive. But since your writing style is almost defined by its hyperbolic and rhetorical nature, I don't really expect you to agree with or understand that point.

Read the post again. Your reading comprehension obviously isn't so good. I said that you conceded that MMS was a bad idea. I also said that you used pedantry and bad arguments to argue that, even though MMS for autism a bad idea, apparently it's not nearly as bad as its critics are making it sound.

As for my style being full of "hyperbolic rhetoric," well, that's only true when I want it to be. MMS quackery rises (or falls, depending on how you want to look at it) to the level where I want it to be. Dosing autistic children with MMS is "worthy" of such rhetoric. In fact, I actually rather held back a bit.

@mj
I don't see any personal attacks mj. All I see from Orac is fundamentaly flaws in your "arguments".

All that has been pointed out was how terribly weak your argument was.

So point out where Orac has "attacked you", because I don't see it. I'll be waiting, but I don't see anything that proves your point.

And yes, I have read your "article", and it was full of pseudoscience and outright quackery.

As an aside, I do find it humorous that every time quacks and trolls have their arguments pointed out as flaws, they usually say that they've been personally attacked while at the same time, they throw invective and ad hominems.

Funny how a quack's mind work.

MJ, are you going to correct the most serious error you made on your blog? As Orac points out, you wrote:

The target number that you are supposed to get to with MMS is 1 ppm (part per million) of chlorine dioxide.

That is simply not true. Humble recommends slowly increasing the dose to 15 drops, that is 150 milligrams of sodium chlorite, or about 120 milligrams of chlorine dioxide. Rivera recommends up to 24 drops a day, which is 240 milligrams of chlorine dioxide or 190 milligrams of chlorine dioxide. You would have to dilute that in 190 liters of water to get a concentration of 1 part per million (1 milligram per liter). Clearly drinking that much water during the course of one day would be fatal in itself.

To echo some of the comments on MJ's blog, how is it that the same people who thought that a dose of mercury as thimerosal in vaccines that was approaching but not exceeding the EPA daily safety limit was incredibly toxic, yet dosing a child with an amount of chlorine dioxide that exceeds the EPA daily safety limits by a factor of over a hundred is somehow OK?

I meant "240 milligrams of sodium chlorite".

MJ @ 5:21 pm 21Jun12

Nowhere do I suggest that MMS is a good thing or defend its use, quite the opposite in fact.

But in fact you do defend it. Maybe you don’t see it that way – allow me to explain. Your complaints about the misuse of the word “bleach” align you with MMS supporters, not MMS critics. If you are rebutting the critics, you are defending the practice. Because that's what rebutting does.

If defending MMS was not your intention, you should not have dedicated nearly 50% of your blogpost (about 1480 out of 3000 words) to regurgitating its defenders’ claims.

And adding the concluding line “So, how about we all turn down the rhetoric a little?” doesn’t meant that’s what your post is about. The body of the post says otherwise.

Almost completely OT, but so funny I just couldn't help sharing. This message recently posted to the yahoo group EoHarm:

Posted by: "Rts Ahrens" rtss55@yahoo.com rtss55
Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 am (PDT)

Just want to relate an experience I had yesterday. Fortunately, I am under the care of a homeopath.

Upon walking past a big-box store group of employees de-boxing clothes, I realized that I probably needed to take my chemical allergy remedy when I returned home. Well, I was distracted with something else and awoke the next morning with no memory of the prior year..... I mean a new freind's children who I had just met days earlier, password for an email account a changed six weeks ago and had constantly used, etc. This was very scary. My spouse had the good sense to contact my doc and proceeded to drive me to the office.

I had been hit with formaldyde and it took an hour to clear me of this toxic chemical.

In conclusion, not only can we blame aluminum in vaccines for the nightmare of alzheimers or dementia, but you can add formaldehyde to that list (also in some vaccines).

Be careful where you walk with your chemically- sensitive children ..... and yourself for that matter. The only doctor who can help you detox this is going to be a homeopath.

Weeks ago an emergency room doctor put me on an intravenous feed of a saline solution as a treatment for dehydration. Got a whole bottle. That tell you anything about dehydration?

(Absent minded, and I'm prone to diarrhea thanks to my SSRI.)

Broken Link,

Her homeopath can help her forget the formaldehyde?

"If defending MMS was not your intention, you should not have dedicated nearly 50% of your blogpost (about 1480 out of 3000 words) to regurgitating its defenders’ claims."

The regurgitation would make sense, if he's been sampling the wares...

@Mu: I contacted Amazon and asked them to remove MMS from their sales offerings. Maybe if more people contacted them, they would actually do it.

Hang on, I"m confused again.

So, the same people who don't/can't differentiate between different types of mercury in vaccines, can tell the difference between types of chlorine? And are arguing one form's safe?

And as someone who swims 4-5 times a week - you swallow too much chlorinated water, and you do start to feel a little ill. God forbid it wasn't diluted, whatever the form. (pool at my gym was once shut down for a few days when someone used too much chlorine in it - apparently it's a health risk or something. Who knew?)

MJ, the "can't we all just get along," ploy is offensive. You are, essentially, imploring those rightly outraged by the fact that people will force bleach (yes it is) into their autistic child to ignore it and play nice. I, for one, can't and won't.

It's "hyperbolic" to call a bleach a bleach.

Chlorine dioxide is more toxic than the active ingredient in household bleach.

The oral LD(50) in rats is 292 mg/kg
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinedioxide/recognition.h…

Assume a half-kilogram rat (typical weights are between 250-500gm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_rat)

So, from "This means giving children between 64 and 192 mg of chlorine dioxide per day, depending on the child’s weight. ". At 192mg dose would be 384mg/kg, or enough to kill a big rat.

Sodium Hypochlorite (what we can call bleach without being hyperbolic) has an LD50 of 8910 mg/kg. 384mg/kg is notable (about 5%) of the LD50 for a rat (www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925001).

So, how, exactly, is referring to this substance as Bleach hyperbolic?

A similar dose of "bleach" would likely make the rat ill, but of Chlorine Dioxide, this will kill the rat.

Calling "MMS" bleach *downplays* the substance.

I suppose if you put calcium hypochlorite into capsules that would survive through the stomach, you might get hypochlorous acid further down the gut. I don't have info for calcium hypochlorite but sodium hypochlorite at a pH below about 3 will decompose to water and free chlorine. Chlorine isn't very soluble in water. Given the pH in the stomach, I would expect to be belching clouds of chlorine if I consumed calcium hypochlorite. (My grandfather would have had something to say on the wisdom of that - he was repeatedly exposed to chlorine as a chemical weapon in WWI.)
~~~
"Sodium hypocchlorite, sodium chlorite and hydrogen peroxide are the three oxidants predominantly used for bleaching cellulosic fibres." Cellulosics Dyeing, Shore, ed, SDC, 1995

Sodium chlorite is used to produce chlorine dioxide which can't be transported as a gas, given its propensity for, uh, coming apart rather violently. Chlorine dioxide is also extemely corrosive to most metals.
~~~
When I was trying to find info on sodium chlorite, I did get the impression that there may be legitimate use for it as a mouthwash for certain conditions.

So, do I read your post correctly MJ...that you are not pleased with Orac's plugging of your blog? Too bad.

Have you ever seen a chemical burn on human skin, MJ? You do understand that the epithelial tissue lining the digestion tract is more delicate and prone to injury from bleach...and from having catheters shoved up your rectum, repeatedly to deliver MMS bleach enemas, don't you?

Oh, and your analogy about chemicals using to bleach flour is bogus, as well.

Did you know that lye is used to in the process for dried cod? So do you agree that because of that cod processing practice, that this would be a harmless *treatment/cure* for autism?...

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/EASY-OFF-Oven-Cleaner-Heavy-Duty-US-Eng…

A friend of mine makes his own pretzels and swears by food-grade lye to create a deep-brown, crisp crust. You need to jack the pH as high as you can, and nothing works like lye. But it has to be handled very carefully, because it's highly caustic despite being "food grade". None of the lye remains in the final product or the prestzels would be deadly (and not taste very good!)

t have baked using ammonia instead of baking powder. It makes the house smell awful for a while but it burns off in the oven.

Both chemicals are safe for some food applications but dangerous when handled or used incorrectly. Bleach and pool shock, on the other hand, have no safe food applications ever.

@ Marc Stephens: Didn't I see lye (food grade or industrial grade), cited on the PubMed website, when I searched for clinical indications for MMS *treatments*?

Certain people also seem to be misreading the "industrial" word as meaning extremely strong instead of meaning the more literal meaning of used in industry. Another example of the "industrial" uses of this product is making white flour - in some cases, flour is literally sprayed into the air in a room full of chlorine dioxide to remove the color (and all of the nutrients) from the flour. If you ever wondered how flour turns white or why it has to be enriched after the fact it is because it was bleached. So, if you eat white flour, you are possibly eating a food that has been bleached by the same bleach in MMS.

This is so wrong for two reasons: bleached and unbleached flour have identical nutritional profiles. The nutrient-stripping stage occurs before bleaching, and both bleached and unbleached flour is enriched. (Maybe MJ is comparing bleached vs. whole wheat flour, but even ww flour is enriched.)

Secondly, most commercial flour producers use benzoyl peroxide to bleach flour. Sometimes chlorine gas is used, but that is not the same as chlorine dioxide. And definitely not the same as MMS. In fact chlorine dioxide is never used in US flour factories because it is too unstable and not worth the risk. A flour mill is already a powderkeg waiting to go up in flames, and when you add an unstable combustible agent like chlorine dioxide, it's asking for trouble.

And all bleach agents are now banned in flour in Europe, so it's a moot point.

lilady,

Only when applied anally. Or via IV drip.

I was wrong about whole wheat flour--it is not enriched. The whole point of enriching is to restore the elements contained in ww flour but stripped out of all-purpose (bleached or unbleached) flour.

Actually, "industrial" also means not pure enough for human consumption. For instance, there is a drug I use in my experiments that's an FDA-approved drug. However, what I buy is research grade, which is not sufficiently pure and hasn't been manufactured using processes used to make drugs for humans. I use it in cell culture and in mice. Industrial grade is even less pure than research grade.

As a former hiomebrewer I had to seek out medical-grade oxygen because industrial-grade wasn't pure enough to inject into the fermenting wort. Industrial-grade is allowed to contain more impurities, including toxic gases, and the cylinders it's shipped in are held to a lower standard.

Just an FYI. The Gaia health article linked above has a lot of burning stupid in the comments. I an going over later to mess with some heads. I would appreciate a bit of company.

Kelly,

Don't bother--that piece is almost two years old. It was still being referred to as "supplement" back then.

Damn Marc....I must say in two years the stupid has not improved much. Funny, we learn over time, the alties keep making the same mistakes over and over for years.

Lye is used in processing rather a large number of food products (e.g. canned tomatos, hominy). It is also part of the reason that household bleach is so corrosive - most bleaches contain free sodium hydroxide, deliberately left from the manufacturing process (passing chlorine through an NaOH solution) to keep the bleach stable and maintain the pH high enough during use to prevent it from destroying cotton.

Research grade chemicals may well be of higher purity than those used in pharmaceuticals. "USP" (or "BP") grades are usually considerably cheaper than "reagent" grades. Partly it is a matter of what impurities are important and the ratio of paper to product. For the oxygen that MSIS mentioned, small amounts of air or nitrogen in medical oxygen would be quite acceptable, but would be be unacceptable in high purity oxygen for some lab or industrial use.
[My 1978 BDH Pharmaceutical and Fine Industrial Chemicals catalog lists Cocaine hydrochloride BP at $202.10 for 100 grams, and morphine sulfate for $1450/kg Modern lab suppliers like Fisher are robber barons, unless you have a purchasing contract with them, which can net HUGE discounts.]

Back to MMS (I am reminded by the two ads for it at the top of this page) ...
Arguing that MMS shouldn't be condemned while admitting itis likely ineffective is grossly absurd. It isn't like hanging a horseshoe over the door. It's pretty much impossible to make the case that the horseshoe will do any good, but it is pretty hard to make the case that it will do any harm (issues with fasteners and gravity notwithstanding). Want a horseshoe? Go ahead. MMS can do real harm. It does no good. Don't do it!

Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda, I'm surprised the "alkalize your body" crowd hasn't latched onto lye yet. After all, it's natural: our grannies used it a century ago to make soap.

That can be the second "treatment" I offer at my clinic in Mexico: MMS 2 suppository therapy and lye alkalization purification.

evilDoug:

Lye is used in processing rather a large number of food products (e.g. canned tomatos, hominy).

Lutefisk! Uff da!

(now, if only I can get it to stop turning into goo)

@Sialis - on the Amazon suggestions - we can hope, but these are "affiliate marketers" and not Amazon itself. Not sure if they push too hard on what can be sold on Amazon, except for things that are illegal. Amazon is my favorite department store. If I can't get it within ten miles of my house I go to Amazon. That being said, I can get everything but my photography gear and the really good timothy hay for my son's guinea pig shopping locally and keeping the stores in town in business. Okay and MP3 downloads...

I could have sworn I suggested MMS and MMS2 write-ups ages ago after hubby got sick on the stuff. I'm glad that the current recommended protocols finally made more skeptics aware of Humble and his cures for everything that ails mankind. I found out when googling "MMS Scam" and "MMS danger" when hubby was happily telling me how healthy it was going to make him that it killed a woman in Australia or New Zealand and was believed responsible for many other hospitalizations, etc. (first thing I do with anything hubby tells me something new he has learned about from his alternative friends is google the supplement, etc. with danger and scam after it).

@MJ - I read your blog. It actually seemed to insist that there was no real danger inherent in MMS and that those who are criticizing it are just being alarmists. A defense? To me, yes. If I were to paraphrase and condense your blog I would say "MMS is not harmful, is not abusive, but probably doesn't work. Skeptics are blowing it out of proportion and demonizing it even though it is no more dangerous than prescription medications because they only want people to keep big pharma in business and don't want to heal autistic children."

If it isn't what you intended to say perhaps you can write a second installment?

You know, even if the solution were sugar water, I'd still think these shills are dangerous lunatics. And the parents- ugh. Isn't committing sexual assault on your child one of the definitions of bad parenting? (I believe anal penetration is classed as a sexual assualt- or at least, an assault.)
I'm not a parent, and even I can tell how many degrees of wrong this MMS thing is.
Why the hell can't these parents just leave their kids' asses alone?

Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda, I’m surprised the “alkalize your body” crowd hasn’t latched onto lye yet. After all, it’s natural: our grannies used it a century ago to make soap.

I'm tempted to list other hazardous substances used domestically a century ago, but I guess I shouldn't give the alties any ideas ...

@lilady 21st June

That “Sharon” woman claimed to have her *illustrious* career as a “bookkeeper and whistle blower at HHS” cut short because of damage from a contrast material used during a medical procedure. She’s a proven pathological liar, science illiterate, and an egocentric resident troll. Kelly M. Bray, Autismum and I, have had some great fun poking fun at her and informing her that her brain droppings are off-topic and offensive.

Hey, don't forget about "dyson" would you?
;)

What really gets me is that you can buy MMS, black salve etc. from Amazon.

There seems to be no MMS available from amazon.co.uk nor amazon.co.jp. There are books about it, yes, but no MMS itself. It might be US thing.

Regardless, you can buy even chainsaws from Amazon these days. But even if you can buy it, doesn't mean that applying it either topically or per rectum to your children is good idea. Sigh.

@MJ - seems to ignore the fact that this "treatment" is being forced on children. A treatment with 0% positive benefits, but with 100% negative side-effects that could ultimately lead to the destruction of the child's digestive track....if that's not something to be universally condemned, I don't know what should be.

@Chris

Just say 'NO" to lutefisk.

...and if anyone ever gives you a can of surstrømming, I advise you to watch the following instructional videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRAoSGvmwGA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-bgqR8Gke8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbRIpTUMNi0&feature=related

I'm going to pile on MJ a bit more and note the last paragraph cited by Orac:

So, the side effects of MMS are very similar to those that can happen when using other common treatments. Does that mean giving Aripiprazole to your child when it isn’t clear that there will be benefits “child abuse”? Does the medical profession’s constant overuse of antibiotics qualify as torture?

In this paragraph, MJ seems to ignore that there's rather a large difference between

(1) administering medication in a good-faith effort to resolve symptoms or cure disease, given uncertainty of success and the possibility of error, and

(2) administering harmful nostrums which have no demonstrated therapeutic benefit, however well-intentioned the effort.

I do not think a reasonable person can conclude (1) is child abuse when practiced on children and adolescents; whereas I expect (2) would be child abuse almost any circumstances.

"Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda..."
Back when Orac slapped some insolence on water alkalizers, I calculated how much lye would be required to adjust the pH of water by the same amount as the expensive machines. I don't remember the numbers, but a 25kg bag of food grade sodium hydroxide is pretty cheap and will "treat" a zillion litres of water. And it doesn't just go to 10 or 11 - you can crank it all the way up to 14!
~~~
There are lots of drugs (especially, it seems, among those used for mental illnesses) that are somewhat unpredicable in terms of efficacy and have rather extensive lists of side effects. When these drugs are prescribed and/or adminsistered by responsible physicians, the results are monitored and action taken if the drugs fail to produce the intended results or if the side effects are beyond tolerance.
MMS doesn't have any side effects. There is no useful main effect for anything to be beside. All of the effects are the body's response to a poisonous, corrosive substance. But quacks like Rivera, in her dangerous ignorance, proclaims they are signs the poison is doing its job.

Composer 99,
Also, with real medications side effects are usually a signal to reduce the dose or try a different drug. With MMS side effects are supposed to be a sign it is doing its job (which is damaging the GI tract, not killing pathogens as is falsely claimed)..

evilDoug beat me to it...

@ dingo199

Hey, don’t forget about “dyson” would you?

I actually was referring to the "RI Regulars" who I can identify who post at the Ho-Po.

I often wondered if Dyson is a RI Regular who posts under a different nym' here...it would be nice if that is the case :-)

Wonder no more....

So it's Victim Mom vs Warrior Mom

-btw-
AoA is hawking an ASD-GI study by Walker, Fortunato and KRIGSMAN.

Enjoy. I have other work.

Now, I don’t know about you, but when I think of bleach, this is the stuff that comes to mind.

That's a really strange argument. "Sodium chlorite is not really bleach because my ignorance and assumptions associate that name with one specific product".
Even the manufacturers of Chlorox don't claim that their product is 'THE bleach'. Their advertisements describe it as "the most trusted brand of bleach".

@Politicalguineapig,
I've wondered why quacks are so fascinated with inserting things into the bottoms of autistic children. Frankly, it is abuse and assault.
Trying to do something as simple as getting my son dressed can be a process fraught with physical danger (and that's no exaggeration - he's bloodied my nose more than once and bangs his head on the floor). I can't and don't want to imagine the levels of restraint the children being subjected to this abuse must be put under. Bleach or not (but MMS most definitely is) the risk of serious injury to the child from the method of administration alone is unacceptable.

and if anyone ever gives you a can of surstrømming, I advise you to watch the following instructional videos

The guys in the last one seem to have erred by choosing milk rather than some variety of bäsk.

Please to everyone out there, do not drink sodium chlorite and especially the conversion to chlorine dioxide for any reason. This should make the MMS question immediately moot. (Using credible water purification tablets for purifying water from specifically bacterial endospores is ok)

I have ten years of experience in R&D and delivery of chlorine dioxide into the air and surface for disinfection. Yes, it’s a miracle chemical compound but only for specific uses. There are over 120 years of peer publications that overwhelmingly support the power of Clo2 disinfection with very noticeable under-whelmingly kindredness for internal application. A great website to gather published information for any discussion re: chlorine dioxide is http://www.odorscience.net/Technology.html.

Chlorine Dioxide and Sodium Chlorite are very powerful oxidizers. That’s why they work. There is no educated chemical engineer or chemist that would ever endorse using an oxidizer of this magnitude internally. Yes, it does burn on the way down.

@ Dingo....Thanks

@ Roger Kulp: Oh Yes...it works. Let's see if I can get it past moderation on the Ho-Po...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jess-wilson/autism_b_1607631.html

@Narad

My husband's family decided to try it one day; thankfully they didn't open the can inside the house.

It stank so bad even the dogs left the area. They buried it in the backyard and could still smell it.

@ Denice Walter: Oh Krigsman...again:

http://www.autismgi.com/

NYS has his license registration address as Woodbury, New York...but he practices in another town. Notice he doesn't take any medical insurance...strictly cash up front...let the parents try to get reimbursement.

Oh Krigsman...again:

http://reg.tmb.state.tx.us/OnLineVerif/Phys_ReportVerif.asp?ID_NUM=5118…

I have been following his career t
r
a
j
e
c
t
o
r
y ..for you, Denice.

("trajectory" should have be shown in a downward slope.)

@ Narad...
@ Darwy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming

How do you tell the difference between fermentation and botulism...if the can swells?

"It's been banned aboard certain airlines"

autismum @3:51 pm

UGH.You bring back too many ugly memories of childhood enemas,without bleach.Don't forget all the sensory issues around wearing clothes.I hope you let your kid go naked around the house as much as he wants.

Do you know I only stopped head banging a few months ago,after I started on the leucovorin?

Amazon was sent the following information in a chat session, along with the link to the FDA information about MMS. Here is the conversation:

Me:Thank you. Here is the FDA link:
http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHum…
Ricky:Thanks for the information.
Can you please help me with the link on the item page on Amazon?
Me:http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B005XRNJ30/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie…
Ricky:Thanks.
Please give me a moment to check on this for you.
Me:Thank you.
Ricky:I am still checking on the best option that I can do. Please give me more time.
Me:Thanks. I'm hoping that the option is to remove the product from Amazon sales.
Ricky:Don't worry. I'll do my best to fixed this.
Me:Thanks.
Ricky:Thanks for waiting.
Me:Actually, MMS is sold by several retailers on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Chlorite-Solution-Water-Purification/dp/B0…
Ricky:I've research on this for you. What I can do is to submit a Product Safety to our higher department so this will be removed on our website. We appreciate that you let us know about this.
Me:Please do that. There may be other retailers listed on Amazon that sell the same product. They are using different names: Miracle Mineral Supplement, Water Purification Supplement, etc. Thank you
One second, I'll send you a link to an article in Science.
Ricky:Yes. I have also included the other one on my report. Don't worry, I'll make sure that Amazon will fixed this.
Me:Here is an article about it.
http://www.science20.com/countering_tackling_woo/humbles_miracle_indust…
Thank you.
Ricky:You're most welcome. Thanks too for bringing this to our attention.
Me:Thank you. I appreciate your help.Have a good night.
Ricky:Thanks. You too and take care.

@ lilady

Botulism doesn't cause swelling in cans, foul oders, discoloration or any other signs of spoilages. That's one of the reasons why it's so dangerous.

Back up a second. . .make your own MMS with POOL SHOCK?!? The same stuff you need to don protective gear even to open the package? The same stuff you need to put into water >just so< to keep it from EXPLODING? You're going to put that stuff into your child's body?

I don't think you even need to specify which orifice is being used to introduce this stuff in order for it to qualify as child abuse.

Autismum: Yeeks, my sympathies. I'm glad your son has a kind, understanding mom, and I'm glad that you have a good support system.
My working theory is that suppositories/enemas operate on two levels. The quacks have noticed that suppositories were good enough for ancients, and they believe anything ancient must be good. (Never mind that most people in the ancient world were old by the time they reached thirty.)
The mothers are taking out their percieved humilation on their disabled children- even though the 'refrigerator mum' theory is debunked, a lot of women take it really personally when they produce imperfect children. And unlike the fathers of the children, they don't have the option to walk away, so they subject the children to increasingly dangerous cures in hopes of erasing their 'mistake.' Or, at least, that's my take on it. Again, not a parent, just appalled.

@lilady 6:50 pm

Surstromming + durian, which has been banned from certain hotels and public transportation in Southeast Asia...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

It would probably be safer for bleach loving imbeciles to feed themselves Giardia parasites from a contaminated stream (does a bear $hit in the woods?) than to buy all those chemicals, but that would mean that might have to tear themselves away from their precious blogs/phones for longer than it takes to do the whole enema thing. Yuk.

How do you tell the difference between fermentation and botulism…if the can swells?

Given that they don't even fool around with sterilizing the cans, I suspect this would have detected by now. The fermentation is lactic, so I presume the pH is low enough. And now I really want a copy of these proceedings.

@ Bad Poet: I've heard of durian...what a dreadful combination for a recipe.

There's a cook that appears on TV (her grandfather was a famous Italian movie director); her first name is Giada and her "classic" Italian dishes are so-so. Husband rolls on the floor when I refer to her as Giardia.

@ Narad: I expect that "Chris" will be checking in to provide us with a scrumptious way to prepare the herring...

"In concluding his presentation on the science of fermentation, Mr. McGee quoted Alan Davidson, one of the founders of the Oxford Symposium, who had actually gone to Sweden to observe the opening of the surströmming barrels and the transfer of the partially fermented fish into cans:

As the smell billowed upwards, birds began to drop dead from the sky."

lilady, badpoet: I've had durian chips. Tasted like gasoline with a dash of salt. Also, durians have been known to kill people. Some unlucky person walks under a tree with ripe durians and.. squish. Also, thanks for the thing on surstomming. I'm usually game for anything but I think I'll pass on that.

lilady:

@ Narad: I expect that “Chris” will be checking in to provide us with a scrumptious way to prepare the herring

Lutefisk are cod, not herring! This is exactly how the Internets is not accurate!

Though I do like a tasty un-fermented pickled herring.

Chris...I know the difference between lutefisk and herring...my Scandinavian heritage.

There's nothing better than FRESH cod simmered slowly, drained, topped with butter and fresh dill. I never met a lutefisk that I could *appreciate* :-)

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/o_lutefisk_o_…

My mom used to pickle herring around the holidays; it was a *tradition* to have it first thing into the New Year. I *heard* it was the best pickled herring, but I'm not a raw fish...or raw seafood foodie.

“It’s been banned aboard certain airlines”

On the whole I would feel safer traveling on an airline that had *not* banned Surstromming, because none of the other passengers had ever been tempted to carry some aboard.

herr doktor bimler:

“It’s been banned aboard certain airlines” And, the banning of Surstromming on foreign carriers, has created an international hoo-hah...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4867024.stm

What if the tin leaks, while in checked luggage? Think of the consequences! The pungent smell could corrode the insulation on the miles of wiring within the cargo space! Think of the poor small pets in carriers being transported in the heated section of the cargo space!

There’s nothing better than FRESH cod simmered slowly, drained, topped with butter and fresh dill.

Great, I get complaints about tarragon in tuna casserole, and now this. I cannot begin to express my antipathy toward dill.

Narad: How could you ever make your own gravalox without dill? I make it, but don't eat it. Simple recipe, cured in the fridge, with handfuls of dill weed, gin, some sugar and juniper berries.

You're missing a treat if you don't try a wee bit of dill (fresh or dried) in chicken salad, preferably with freshly made mayonnaise.

I prefer my herrings raw and unpickled.

I make it, but don’t eat it.

Oho! I once was crazy about a woman who endorsed herring but did not endorse me, but that's all I'll say in that regard. No dill.

@Lilady

Nothing could survive the stench in the can, I'm rather confident about that.

I had a friend down in Australia who asked me to send him 'something weird' from Scandinavia for Christmas.

So I sent him a can of Surstrømming in the mail. Just imagine... the can was slightly bulged when I bought it, and then after two weeks in the mail down to Australia....where it's SUMMER.

He said the can was nearly round like a ball when it arrived....

Who knew that fermented fish would be the ultimate red herring? :)

"Great, I get complaints about tarragon in tuna casserole, and now this. I cannot begin to express my antipathy toward dill."

As long as we don't have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart's content.

@roger my boy swears little but a t-shirt in the house which can get messy so we've made him loose one piece pjs. And on the topic of fish my son lives the smell of fish counters

Notice when the blinking plexiglass box is in sleep mode, how the foodies and weird foodies come out to play? And...all because I posited that Easy-Off Oven Cleaner might be the alties next *treatment/cure* for autism.

Last food comment from me (for a while). Husband treats every holiday as a food foray and found some new food in Umbria, for me to try and duplicate at home. I said "no" to the wild boar, but agreed to try my skills on porchetta...a delectable stuffed pork shoulder.

Sorry to drag y'all back from culinary bliss, but I wanted to report that I've seen at least one altmed post denouncing MMS.

A little internet peer pressure at work?

Oh my! There were several people ( now deceased) in my family who used to rhapsodise endlessy about gravlox and various ( awful) fish in jars. I prefer regular, normal, cooked/ baked salmon myself: none of this ancient Viking fish-burial or such like. I really shouldn't diss the Norske tradition because my own ancestry includes folks who prefer blood as a prime ingredient in cuisine. My Irish friend mentions horrible blood cuisine as well- which her father liked. We both find that abhorrent.

I'm not sure whether the following is Scandinavian or German Jewish but I have seen smoked whole carp (?) that look like giant, gutted goldfish. Not on my list of food preferences either.

@ Anj: I've seen several altmed posts that condemn MMS.

I'd like to think that some of them have a conscience, but I think the likely reason is because they don't stock and sell bleach for autism *treatment/cures*. They have *far more effective autism *treatments/cures*...as contained in their new books...and available for purchase on their websites.

@ Denice Walter: I believe "sable" is the Jewish colloquial name for smoked carp...not to be confused with a sable fish...a completely different species of fish:

http://server1.stripersonline.com/t/526565/cold-smoked-fish

Nothing wrong with gravad lax. My mouth starts watering, thinking of it.

As long as we don’t have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart’s content.

Implying that Julia Child was a "weenie" could be taken as fighting words in certain quarters. (I actually had the "who put soap in this?" reaction the first few times as a lad, but it just went away. The genetic angle I'm not so sure about, but I do think this may be going on with wormwood; at a gathering a year ago involving an hour of free Jeppson's Malört, two out of about 40, myself included, detected nothing objectionable whatever in the flavor.)

Amazon.com: where all the sodium hydroxide- Roto-Rooter/Liquid Plumr type drain-cleaning products Illinois residents used to be able to get at the hardware store went to be repurposed as alt-med cure-alls and enemas.

@ Feddlefew: The presence of Botulism, in rare cases, may cause commercially-packed food cans to swell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

More commonly, cases of food-borne botulism are caused by improperly home-canned foods and by amateur cooks who chop and store garlic in oil.

You can also buy black salve and Hulda Clark's zappers on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-k…

It seems as if MJ's blog has been taken down. Either that or it's not available due to maintenance. I'll keep checking periodically, since I doubt we'll ever hear from her again here.

Ignore my post above. The blog is back up. I thought maybe for a second MJ had an attack of conscience or common sense and pulled the blog herself. Must have been a temporary glitch.

MJ's "retort" to me is hilarious:

http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2012/06/smear-blogging.html

I don't know if I'll bother with it or not; it's just too silly and whiny. On the other hand, it might be worth a brief analysis.

@Lilady

Wild boar isn't so bad as long as you remember to brine it. The MIL bought a haunch once and presented it to me one Sunday afternoon because she wasn't sure how to cook it but figured I could do something with it - in 3 hours.

The first idea I had for it wasn't very nice and I won't mention it here...

@Orac it's definitely a whinefest over there. At least he's admitted he's chemically inept.

Thanks Orac! MJ's little smear post just sent another irony meter up in smoke.

@ Darwy OMG...I hope you didn't try to roast the wild boar. It's "best" when prepared as cianghiale (cut in small pieces, simmered for a long time with a spicy sauce).

I posted that MJ referred to my post at him, "honorable mention", I presume...lost in the moderation hopper. MJ's as thick as a plank and is pleading for help to figure out the chemistry of the MMS bleach.

When I clicked orac's link to read the "retort"

Fraudulent Web Page Blocked

You attempted to access:
http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2012/06/smear-blogging.html

This web page is a known fraudulent web page. It is recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

For your protection, this web page has been blocked. Visit Symantec to learn more about phishing and internet security.

Please pass the gravad lox, smoked salmon, nova lox, smoked trout, smoked sturgeon, a couple of untoasted everything bagels, some cream cheese, some sliced tomatoes and some chopped onions...

This web page is a known fraudulent web page. It is recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

Offhand, I'd guess Symantic is barfing on the JavaScript 'div-3az01wmo7lmj'. It's not in the usual place for an injection.

From MJ’s new post

Another explained to me that because I was having saying inappropriate things about MMS that I am one of its defenders. And another one counted the number of words I wrote and decided that I spent too many words saying the wrong about MMS thing therefore I had to be defending it. That was right before he said that I was "sampling the wares".

Either MJ can’t keep different commenters straight, or MJ has some serious reading comprehension difficulties. I’m the one who did the word count, and I never said anything about “sampling the wares.” And I’d really like to know why MJ thinks someone whose nym incorporates the word “mom” is a “he.”

Yah, I'm just not seeing anything suspicious here upon a bit of further review.

Dangerous Bacon:

As long as we don’t have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart’s content.

It tastes like soap. But I am a supertaster, something I learned after sampling a piece of test paper that caused me to rinse my mouth several times that evening.

I like dill, I hate tarragon, but that is because I do not like licorice flavors. I also like Australian musk sticks, which oddly enough remind me of bubble gum and not toiletry products. Go figure.

Today I went on an edible garden tour in a neighborhood with a Scandinavian past. So I had lunch at a Scandinavian specialties store (cured salmon open sandwich).

That store sells lutefisk and pickled herring, but I could not find the surstrømming. They sponsor the lutefisk eating contest at that neighborhood's annual summer festival.

on the topic of surstromming, I had no idea as to it's existence until this week. An aussie comedy show which features a comedy duo exploring Europe (among other things) did a segments on it. I looked up the wiki entry and we had a good laugh at some of the stories on their.

But, if anyone's interested in how a first experience of it might go: http://www.hamishandandy.com/2012/whats-that-smell/

I love what happens when in a comment conversation on things not to feed kids, that just mentioning lutefisk would bring on a fun thread hijack!

I like dill, I hate tarragon, but that is because I do not like licorice flavors.

Hmph. I detest licorice (anethole) but delight in tarragon (estragole; also in basil).

(And this all kind of rolls back to Shulgin's ten essential amphetamines.)

One funny answer on MJ's blog by Minority:

"Go against the dogma. Get smeared.

These are the same people who are totally cool with millions of children being dosed with thimerosal in vaccines in the developing world. THAT is not child abuse."

Someone didn't get they idea that poison is in the doses.

If you are defending administering bleach to children, you defenitly shouldn't complain about miniscule amounts of thimerosal in vaccins.

I followed to the link to MJ's follow up piece, but didn't get the Symantec warning. I couldn't comment either, even though there was no indication that comments were closed.

...just over a AOA and they are talking about all the amazing RESEARCH you can do on the internet...

There's just one problem. There really isn't that much actual research done. Studies are expensive. Even the best constructed studies only give a limited amount of new data/information/knowledge.

What the internet does give us is a whole LOTTA soap boxes for people to stand up on and TELL THE WORLD that this study and that study and this other study totally, absolutely and unequivocally supports hundreds of contradictory theories. And products.

I'm all for research. The real deal, not flim flam artists pushing their various wares under the name of "research".

@ Anj: Oh, do you mean this article at AoA?...

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/06/look-it-up-1.html

"I know that some people don’t appreciate what’s available on the internet to an autism parent, nor do they want those parents anywhere near it. Those answers, that research, these numbers, that cover up. What a parent finds online is likened to a national secret. Looking up their child’s signs, symptoms, diseases or potential diagnoses is just not okay. The internet is not a viable source and its use should never be allowed by parents, especially autism parents. Heaven forbid they stumble across something beneficial for their child! And, they better not think that they can share that information with anyone, especially with the doctor they’ve hired to help them."

Now we are being *accused* of not wanting parents to look up things on the internet...project much, maybe?

@Orac,

if you really are determined to pick a fight and get into a pissing contest then so be it.

@Chemmomo,

Because the first comment that I saw that included the word count when I was reading was by Thomas. Since I couldn't find any other comment with the text that has was quoting I assumed the quotes around the sentence were there accidentally.

Your original comment didn't appear for me until later. If you would like me to properly attribute the novel word count analysis to you, I would be more than willing to do so.

And gender confusion seems to be common around here, there are people who are calling me "her".

@Mimi, Narad,

There is nothing fraudulent that symantec would be flagging on the site nor is there anything but the standard blogger components. The dynamically generated div that you are referring to are being created by one of two components.

If you really are getting a warning then you probably would see the same warning on other blogger sites as well. You might also have something on your machine that is changing the page as it is loaded, so it might be time to scan your machine and/or to update symantec.

@Darwy, actually I said in the original piece that my chemistry was a little weak, so there is no "admission". Although "weak" is really a relative term - unlike present company, I don't pretend to be an expert on everything. If I am unsure then I say so.

@ MJ: I just left another *message* for you, on your blog:

liladyJune 24, 2012 9:26 AM

"You are certainly free to find my alleged ignorance offensive....."

I found your obvious ignorance of chemistry with your first article offensive MJ...and it was not an "alleged ignorance"...as you yourself readily admit...

"But since I do care about accuracy, I will correct one potential mistake that I made in the last post. The dose of chlorine dioxide in a single, uhm, serving of MMS might be higher than I thought it was. I said that I though it was around 1 ppm and I based that on comments that I read around the internet. According to Gorki, that dose is like 80 ppm and while I think that figure is probably wrong (anyone with a good knowledge of chemistry want to chime in?), I also think my figure is an under estimation."

Too bad, in response to your pathetic plea "anyone with a good knowledge of chemistry want to chime in?", some posters have tried to explain some basic chemistry to you. Now do you *get it*?

You chose to call my concern for your inaccuracies and support of quackery and child abusers "toadyism"...I call it advocacy on behalf of defenseless developmentally disabled children whose credulous parents, like you MJ, are clueless about the inherent dangers of forcing an industrial bleach into their children's mouths and rectums.

You're just digging yourself in deeper MJ."

MJ, nice whinge.

@ Thinking Moms' Revolution:

Yesterday's guest writer, David's Daddy, writes of his experiences with autism as his child grows; in the comments section, he mentions that he has just learned of a new way to combat the 'bugs': MMS.

Today's entry speaks about Candida.

These people are on a parasite hunt now that the toxin-hunt has been ( partially) called off.

Their furiously desperate searches for offending chemicals/ parasites and magickal cures/ doctors are merely exercises in distraction to MAKE THEMSELVES FEEL BETTER.

if you really are determined to pick a fight and get into a pissing contest then so be it.

Hmmm. All I did was to criticize your obvious mistakes, ignorance, and tone trolling once and then to mention that I thought your followup post was pure whining. Hardly a fight. Of course, given your science knowledge it's obvious to me that you'd be bringing the proverbial knife to a gun fight.

@mj

Read your blog "article". Had a good laugh at your poor argument skills, plentiful use of ad hominem, and utter lack of actual science.

If you were looking for unintentional comedy, you hit a gold mine. But if your looking to make a cogent argument, much less trying to pick a fight, you've really set yourself up for humiliation.

I've just replied again, to MJ, on his blog. He accused me of toadyism, once again.

He's been given my final advice and invited to come to RI, if he wishes to engage me in a "pissing contest".

MJ is really not worth listening to. Last year, we got in a scrap on Left Brain Right Brain. S/He claimed that when I self advocate, I belittle and dismiss the voice of his/her children. I went ballistic and eventually took the fight over to my blogs. S/He is not prepared to admit when s/he is wrong about something.

MJ is STILL defending MMS in the replies to the comments, both on the original posting and the reply to Orac. The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents "mean well" it's not abuse. All we need to do is simply, calmly and quietly say "hey, that's not right. You might possibly maybe consider stopping that behaviour." And then the MMS parent would pause, say "you know, you're right. Thank you for informing me about the possible harm I might be doing. I'll stop immediately."

I knew a woman whose ex-husband used to beat her because he thought he was "helping" make her into a better person (it's twisted but common in domestic abuse cases). He meant well, in his warped mind, so according to MJ that would not be considered abuse. It's all about the intent.

Chemmomo: Sorry about the confusion that resulted when I quoted you. I was simply noting that your metaphorical use of the word "regurgitation" coincided with a real side-effect of being poisoned with MMS. I did not expect anyone to take that as an accusation - but then again, two weeks ago, I wouldn't have expected to find that anyone was experimenting on children with industrial bleach, so I guess I was wrong twice over.

The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse

Can't even begin to list what's wrong with that statement, but I'll toss out the old "spare the rod and spoil the child" tripe just for starters.

Shay,

Here's one direct quote from MJ:

Yes, these parents may be doing something less than desirable to their child but I really doubt there is a malicious intent there. If anything, most of the people who are using this stuff are trying to help, however misguided their efforts might be. They certainly don't deserve people shouting to the world that they are child abusers.

A more measured and reasonable, hey, that isn't a good idea would have been a better response.

That approach reminds me of this clip from Family Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s66vQhar5AI

Because all we need to say to people who are going to great lengths to obtain and administer something they have to conceal because it's so wacky iand illegal is "hey, stop it."

In another reply to a commenter MJ asked what is so degrading about giving MMS to a child. He also downplays the difficulty of restraining an austitic child in order to get the catheter and bleach up there in the first place, not to mention the agony afterwards.

That was me. I've replied that the repeated enemas are degrading and that restraining a child to administer them is an horrendous imposition of a parent's will.
It gets my goat that people assume just because I don't have my child in a permanent head lock and do, genuinely, love his company and see him as (for want of a better word) a blessing then I can't possibly have had any of the challenges or he must be high functioning/have Asperger's.
Restraining a child should only ever be used as a last resort and when we've had to fully restrain our little Pwdin it's broken my heart to do so every time (always for his safety).

@lilady,

Yup, that's the one. Of course, on any alt med site that sells anything at all, the list of symptoms is so long that it covers anything from gastric reflux to ovarian cancer. You can look up one symptom, find one hundred possible diagnoses and two hundred products claiming to treat either the symptom or illness.

One stop "research" - diagnosis, treatment and sales all in one place. Often they have forums, support groups and links to sites which agree with the central dogma.

That some alt-medders have objected is not surprising, nor does it indicate that they might actually have a conscience. No, the problem is that if this whole "it's caued by parasites" crap is right, then the "it's the vaccines" folks are wrong. And we couldn't have that.

anti-vaxxers have way too much invested to concede it is due to worms

There is nothing fraudulent that symantec would be flagging on the site nor is there anything but the standard blogger components. The dynamically generated div that you are referring to are being created by one of two components.

Yah, I figured that out. Nonetheless, I assume that the report that Symantec was flagging something was accurate. It's not software I would use were I to be using a Windows box, so I'm not really familiar with how often it might produce false positives.

@ Pablo ( a/k/a MMM):

Perhaps Blax-sted or some other blasted anti-vax theoretician will link the toxins ( or is it the malevolent vapours?) in vaccines to providing the fertile miasmic ground for the spontaneous generation of parasites.

Why not, their style often seems pre-scientific?

Well I'm back online now and not surprised at all that MJ has not come over to RI to engage us in a *pissing contest*. That's the nature of these hit and run crank bloggers.

@ Julian Frost he/she is a *he*...from MJ's blog..

About me
Gender Male
Location United States
Introduction I am the father of three beautiful daughters who unfortunately have to struggle with autism.

Marc Stephens Is Insane

The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse.

... He meant well, in his warped mind, so according to MJ that would not be considered abuse. It’s all about the intent.

That was the angle in MJ's apologetic rant that really got my goat.

Please note that I'm in no way comparing the abuse committed by child rapists to those dosing their kids with MMS, but dedicated paedophiles, namely NAMBLA, employ similar rhetoric. Their twisted attempts at defence claim that they love the children they rape and therefore to these sick minds the atrocities they commit should not be considered paedophilia or child abuse.

MJ has in two consecutive articles, been so off-base on MMS. His *claim* about the rhetoric associated with bleaching kids with industrial strength chemicals...is just *tone blogging*...at its worst.

His second article was even worse than the first...because he played semantics with his words, because of his colossal ego.

Odd, isn't it, that he blogs under "Jabberwocky" about autism?

Orac to MJ:
"Of course, given your science knowledge it’s obvious to me that you’d be bringing the proverbial knife to a gun fight."
It sounds more like going into a battle of wits half-armed.

MJ is just a walking pile of failure.

I'm so sick of abuse apologists (and others) saying (They mean well, their intent was good". Intent is not foxing magic. If I run someone over with a car, killing them in the process, I can't shout "It was. an accident!", and bring them back to life.

Also, the enema thing is making me feel sicker by the day. I'm in my thirties, and have nerve damage in my gut. Sometimes an enema is needed, so that I don't end up in hospital.

I feel violated and traumatised when it's administered to me. I cry, I shake, the abdominal pain is awful. it can take weeks for my distress to resolve.

I'm not an autistic child, being. held down by my mam, and flushed out with bleach. There's a saying, "'Mother' is the name for God, on the lips and hearts of all children"

I've been an abused child, it still affects me, but I can work through it now, express myself. What's an autistic child, especially a seriously affected non-verbal one, supposed to do to counteract their physical and emotional world? If every experience they rate is facilitated through their mother, their abuser, how are they to deal with the betrayal and violation, who can they tell?

I look at kids like Autismum's little Pwd, and wonder how someone could take a child like him, and do such an awful thing. He's a lucky little lad, others... not. so much.

Marc Stephens Is Insane:

MJ is STILL defending MMS in the replies to the comments, both on the original posting and the reply to Orac. The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse. All we need to do is simply, calmly and quietly say “hey, that’s not right. You might possibly maybe consider stopping that behaviour.” And then the MMS parent would pause, say “you know, you’re right. Thank you for informing me about the possible harm I might be doing. I’ll stop immediately.”

Your subsequent example about domestic abuse done out of good intentions is spot on the money. Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children. That's the horror of it, and also why doctors aren't supposed to treat their own children -- love, among other things, makes you lose your sense of perspective. In many ways, that's a very good thing. But we must be ever vigilant for when it's a bad thing. Love can be especially dangerous when it is combined with pride; our zeal to help someone we love combined with a prideful belief that we *must* be able to help them and that we *cannot* be wrong about the means is a recipe for disaster.

The ends don't justify the means, and certainly the intent doesn't justify the means or the end, apart from very narrow cases like killing a person to save your own life (and even then it isn't always as clear as we might wish, as the Trayvon Martin case demonstrates).

With homeopathy, in most cases, I think we can be gentle. It generally isn't harmful (Zicam aside) and most people using it are not seriously ill in the first place; the main damage is to the wallet. (Although that damage can become considerable; there are people who have spent their life savings chasing will-o-the-wisps in this manner, and then suffered terribly as they were left destitute.) But MMS is not like homeopathy. It causes considerable harm. It is, frankly, a miracle that there has not yet been a death, as there has been with chelation. (And yet chelation is still used to treat autism! It has killed children, yet it is still done!)

So we cannot afford to stay silent, or to be wishy-washy. We can be respectful of the humanity of other parents, and we can appeal to their obvious love for their children. But we must stand up for what is right.

And I hope that every parent who uses MMS and also every parent who performs home colonic irrigation (another fad remedy for pretty much everything) would read elburto's post above. They need to understand just what it is they are subjecting their children to.

Parents who may be reading this, and considering MMS: you deserve to have all of the facts, and your children deserve to have you make an informed decision based on them. There is no evidence MMS will help. But it will definitely hurt. Not maybe hurt. Definitely hurt. It has a good chance of maiming your child internally, damaging the digestive tract, stripping away the front line of the immune system and compromising its ability to absorb nutrients properly. And it is causing your child considerable pain. That part isn't a maybe; it's a definite. This stuff is highly reactive. Never mind where you get it from, whether it's Pool Shock or another product; basic chemistry tells us it's gonna hurt and hurt bad. Weigh that definite harm against the absence of evidence that it will help, put your pride aside for a moment, and look at what is best for your child. Is he/she better off autistic and in pain, or autistic and happy? Because that's really what it comes down to.

And if you're actually worried about parasites, there are much better treatments for those; see a doctor, get the specific organism identified, and get a tailored treatment. Not this bludgeon that wouldn't even cure a genuine infestation. (Seriously. There are parasites that will weather this just fine, because you're attacking the wrong part of the lifecycle.)

Go back to Orac's link to Jabberwocky's original article, to see that MJ is back-tracking...only about the chemistry of MMS:

EDITED TO ADD : Ignore the crossed out text above, it is wrong. The bottom line is that even using a single drop of MMS is a standard sized glass is a little over six times stronger than pool water - roughly 32ppm. And it gets worse the more drops that you use at a time or if you take it multiple times per day. See this discussion for more details.

MJ is still defending parents, like himself, who seek to *recovery* their child. Read his other articles where he describes using Curcumin supplements to *recover* his children. He's firmly in the autism pseudoscience camp and firmly an enabler who defends parents willing to *try anything* to *recover* their child(ren) from autism.

What would really bring this home is an endorsement by Yazbak and Buttram, two guys who defended a man who shook his girlfriend's baby to death. Child abuse seems to be a common theme with these folks, like when Roy Kerry strapped a kid to a table to force IV chelation.

But Chris...it's not child abuse, if the treatment is an *effort* to *recover* a child from autism (sarcasm/snort).

"Child abuse seems to be a common theme with these folks, like when Roy Kerry strapped a kid to a table to force IV chelation.

For clarity (and for all the times Chris provided *links* for my posts)

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/08/23/one-year-later-the-autopsy…

Why Kerry didn't get the book thrown at him, I'll never understand. Bad enough that quacks get to continue practicing, but after a death?

Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children.

"Yet each man kills the thing he loves" was NOT A RECOMMENDATION.

Nor is John Maynard Keynes' statement "In the long run, we are all dead."

As for Mr "Who put the durian in my surstromming?" Up there, some of the real chemists here ought to dear about making supplements using some of the stinky stuff at Dr Derek Lowe's blog "In the Pipeline", under "Things I Won't Work With". The last post is about selenophenol, which should make alt-woo addicts noticeable by their stench. Now, it's up to us to get "sttp" into IP - as in stinky text transport protocol.

"Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children."

The bastards that shake an infant, so that the baby's brain herniates "mean well and probably do love their children".

@lilady 6:24 pm

Until they get in front of the tv news cameras and turn on the floodgates, moaning and wailing fit to raise the zombies, "b..b..but I loves my chilluns, I'll do anything"...to win the ghetto lottery/stay out of jail/protect the drug or slum lord who's paying them to stay quiet.
At least, that's the way it is here in Chicago.See the "Tiffany Rent" case. If we're lucky, the judge will throw it out and DCFS will give custody of all the kids to t the grandmother. If not, we taxpayers and the police officer are going to be paying the bill for the flamin hots and grape pop for a long time.

@ bad poet: Do you mean this case?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13173512-418/story.html

I don't think that the incident and the interaction between Tiffany Rent and the police officer, warranted tasing.

I also think you should reread how you used stereotypical language for your post.

Yes, lilady, they probably do. That's part of what makes it especially horrifying.

I really want people to understand that part. So many people wonder how someone could stay with an abuser; it's because we have this notion in our heads that if he loves me, he can't be hurting me. It isn't true. Love is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't actually conquer all. The hospital where I had my two babies participated in a study, the results of which led them to require all parents watch a video on shaken baby syndrome. The study had found that devotion and love was no indicator of whether or not a parent would shake a child badly enough to injure or even kill. Most of the time, the people who did it were ignorant of two crucial things: 1) how much damage shaking can do and 2) that sooner or later, you will get angry with your child, and you need to be prepared for that so you can stop yourself doing something horrible. Too many parents go into it with a fairy tale mentality. They think "I will love this child, and that will make it all right". After two weeks of sleep deprivation and one too many spit-ups down their shirts, they are suddenly faced with the reality that parenting takes a lot more than love. It takes *work*, and it will not always be sunshine and butterflies.

Note: I'm not saying they mean well when they shake their children; people do that because they're angry. They mean harm. (They probably aren't thinking about the magnitude of the harm that will be inflicted, but they certainly aren't trying to be nice.) I'm saying that their love has failed to stop them doing this horrible thing.

The people who use MMS on their children, the people who try prayer instead of antibiotics, the people who choose herbs over chemo for their child's leukemia, the people who try to treat AIDS with homeopathy . . . . They do mean well. The results in these cases can never be good, though. Meaning well is a totally different thing than doing well. Personally, I think it falls under the heading of medical neglect (though perhaps a stronger term, medical abuse, should be adopted), which is a subset of child abuse.

@ Calli Arcale: The term "Medical Abuse" is often used in lieu of Munchausen-By-Proxy Syndrome, when abusing parents (usually mothers), lie about and/or induce symptoms that prompt physicians to order multiple (sometimes invasive and painful) medical tests and to hospitalize a child. Such parents seek the attention of doctors and nurses, often are very well self-educated in diseases and disorders and the common symptoms associated with the diseases/disorders and how to lie about/evoke those symptoms. Their goal is have the child be hospitalized.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/5/1026.full.pdf

Yet, these parents who dose their children with MMS, do not fit those criteria. MMS is an OTC purchase and it is an industrial bleach. The parents abuse their kids behind closed doors and they actually avoid taking their child to a medical doctor.

IMO, they are no different than the stranger/child abuser who grabs a child off the street and who *gets off* by hurting a child.

I would be very careful about assumptions that MMS-inflicting parents have Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy or any other known disorder which results in similar behavior. The results may be strikingly similar but the motivations are not at all similar.

Those who have Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy are gripped by a desperate need for attention. How desperate? Well, we can assume it's comparable to those who suffer Munchausen Syndrome who deliberately inflict painful and sometimes lethal suffering on themselves in order to draw that attention: pretty desperate. Their strategy for getting that attention is to manufacture health crises for their children or other dependents and then present themselves as the noble, brave soul who soldiers on despite more suffering than anyone should have to bear.

For these (thankfully rare) parents, it would be a disaster for them if MMS was a miracle cure. They don't want a miracle cure; they want to be the martyr applauded for bearing up bravely under the strain. They have very little to do with the parents who want so desperately for MMS to be a miracle cure, they ignore the fact that it's freakin' bleach.

In order to stop these parents from doing the awful things they're doing to their children, we need to understand why they're doing them. Lumping them together with parents who do some outwardly similar things, but out of motives that couldn't be more different, won't help us.

(Google is wonderful) I remember this case because of the praise heaped upon the MSBP mother, Kathy Bush...she set herself up as the "public face" representing moms who *lovingly* care for their children who have complicated medical conditions...

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18559_162-68882.html

Here too, is an update on how the child is doing...and how she wants some limited contact with her mother. See how Kathy Bush's husband has *enabled* his abusing wife, in spite of the overwhelming evidence about her abuse. Poor kid...she is the victim here and remains the victim.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/22/State/_Munchausen__victim_m.shtml

@ Antaeus Feldspar
I would agree that this is MSBP but that parents inflicting MMS upon their disabled children certainly have features in common with the Munchausen's sufferers. I see this as a kind of Morgellon's by proxy as I think another commentator here suggested. These parents truly *believe* what they're seeing are worms coming out of their kids and that their "symptoms" i.e. autistic characteristics, are those of infestation. It is delusional parasitosis by proxy. Moreover, I see this protocol in similar terms to chelation or anti-fungals in that parents are, essentially, trying to purge their children of autism. I also see the obsession with bowl movements and enemas as somewhat fetishistic.

In other, utterly depressing news, related to this and the pathetic "Chalkboard talk"
https://www.facebook.com/RegardingCaroline/posts/440062246012355

Bad Poet: Um seriously? Most of the autism parents that are way down the rabbit hole are white. So please dial down the Klannish rhetoric. You're too intelligent to be racist.

If "medical abuse" is already a real term used to describe Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, then I agree it should not be applied in these cases. It would be misleading. These are people who do not intend to hurt their children; they are oblivious to the harm they are in fact causing, but this makes them a different case to tackle than those who intentionally lie and obfuscate. It's more like hypochondria by proxy. With Munchausen's, I think they have to know they're not really sick in order to qualify. I think these parents (like Morgellon's sufferers) genuinely believe the "parasites" are real. It doesn't help a whit that they've had this interpretation planted ahead of time by the charlatans.

Still, my basic point stands that it should be actionable from a CPS standpoint. I wouldn't get CPS involved if a person was using homeopathy to treat autism (as long as they're not also using it to treat, for instance, cancer) but this is pretty serious damage being done with MMS. It seems it might be worth the risk to the parent-child relationship. (Because never forget that a child does suffer when their parent is taken away, even if the parent is abusive, sometimes even if the parent is severely abusive. Children bond to their parents instinctively. Never mind the travesty that is "attachment disorder." You have to balance that hurt against the hurts they suffer if they stay and see which option is less bad.)

I still cannot wrap my brain around the repeated assaults on children who are dosed with MMS by their parent(s).

I try to understand their thinking processes and will agree that they want to *recover* their children from autism...they even brag about their children *losing their ASD diagnoses*.

So, in my mind I could *picture* a parent who is steeped in the belief of vaccine injuries, whose only use for the internet is to get information from anti-vaccine sites and health supplement sites that sell crap like MMS. The parent then purchases the MMS, follows the protocol...titrating the oral and enema doses upward...until the desired *effects* (vomiting, diarrhea), are achieved.

The parents have to restrain the child (just like when a doctor draws blood or when an IV is started). The child then starts gagging and vomits..and vomits, some more. The child's profuse bowel movements become watery acidic stool with frank blood and the child is screaming in pain. This, IMO, is the time when any loving parent with any grasp on reality, would stop these *treatments*...to do some real research on the internet about MMS bleach....but they don't.

Have you seen this top banner ad on the AoA website?

http://www.cellmedicine.com/

They have their executive offices in the United States, offer seminars and make arrangements for stem cell therapy to be done in Panama. These wackos will stop at nothing to *recover* their children from autism.

I think that summarizes it, lilady. Especially your sentence "This, IMO, is the time when any loving parent with any grasp on reality, would stop these *treatments*…" They clearly have no grasp on reality. I don't think these people can be dissuaded. We can try to reach the people who are considering MMS, or who have just started, but the ones this far down the rabbit hole have warped reality to such a degree that anything they see is interpreted in terms of how it can confirm their expectations. A call to CPS seems to be the only option in those cases, because I do worry about what will happen to these kids.

Unfortunately *treatment* of imaginary parasites ("bugs") is not a rare event for these whacky mothers who are trying to *recover* their children from autism. From the TMR website, a blogger associates her child's worsening of symptoms with the lunar cycle..."when the bugs get active"

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/bugs-moon-cycles-and-lunacy/#comments

See the six comments from moms who are *treating* their kids for parasitic infestations, including this *gem*:

Mama Wolverine says:
June 28, 2012 at 9:38 am

Years ago, seeking help from a pediatic infectious disease specialist at a childrens hospital, I was laughed out of her office for suggesting a parasite/gut/moon connection. I had explained to her that my child with autism became different when there was a full moon. When I explained to her that I had found information that parasites become active during the full moon cycle, she looked at me like I was a crazy loon. I’ve been dealing with this now, on my own, for the past couple of years because no one would believe me and I became afraid that someone would try to take my child away from me if I brought it up any further.

Why is *Mama Wolverine* doing *treatments* behind closed doors?

What type of *treatment* is she doing, for several years, that makes her afraid that she will have her child taken from her?

Wow--I read a few comments here and couldn't help but posting. This is sad to see. Most of you posting are the type that would rather be cut into by a "doctor" than say, go to a chiropractor, or take a natural herb that can solve your problem without the horrible side-effects of today's "advanced, scientific" drugs.

After learning at at early age that most M.D.s do not truly understand the human body, I found alternative medicine, and my life has been better ever since--and the same applies to others I know who have done the same.

Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with "science?" Many of today's medical doctors are no better, and it astounds me that so many well-educated people just can't see it--or at least, for whatever reason, they won't allow themselves to.

Passerby,

What does any of your nonsense have to do with feeding autistic kids BLEACH? And what does it have to do with administering bleach enemas to austistic kids?

What's sad to see is uninformed, ignorant people supporting child abuse. Take all the MMS you want, but stay away from any kids.

Chiropactors are quacks. Some herbal medicine does work, but then it just becomes medicine. See aspirin.

Wow–I read a few comments here and couldn’t help but posting. This is sad to see. Most of you posting are the type that would rather be cut into by a “doctor” than say, go to a chiropractor, or take a natural herb that can solve your problem without the horrible side-effects of today’s “advanced, scientific” drugs.

It's called being reality-based. Yes, we would rather go with real medicine than with chiropractors and herbalists who promise the moon but can't actually deliver on those promises.

And if you think MMS is a natural herb with no side effects, it goes without saying that you're a nutjob.

"After learning at an early age that most M.D.s do not truly understand the human body"

I'll take my chances with someone who has actually studied medicine any day. Not to belabor the analogy, but why would I take my car to a wheelwright for a tune-up?

Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with “science?

Ah, the Ignaz Semmelweis defense. It was a long time. Anyone has a Bingo card?

Funny enough, the acceptance of his hygienic methods went faster once he managed to publish his results.

Why, yes, passerby @8:37 am 1 July, I’d rather be “cut into by a “doctor”” than have my spine messed with by a chiropractor whose business model seems to be talk the patient into paying for as many visits as possible while pretending to cure me, or ingesting a mixture of compounds with unknown effects and unknown potency.

This is the 21st century: herbs are for flavoring food.

Oh, and if you are ingesting the herb because you’re trying to treat the symptoms of something that ails you – guess what? That makes it a drug. By definition.

"Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with “science?” "

Yes. They were proven wrong by data - just like the current idiots who are trying to use bleach as "medicine" have been.

It's ironic that Semmelweis used "bleach" (no not Clorox, MJ) to wash his hands. I'm surprised the MMS gang hasn't latched onto that yet...

Where ever you go, I'll stick to...Congrats!!!!

Wow - some thread. Orac, I much enjoy your insolence but I often find the comment threads too horrifying to read. There are a lot of good commenters but the bizarre fauna of deluded rubes that are attracted to come here are sometimes just too much to endure. This one is right up there but read every comment up to 3:27 pm. It boggles the mind that actual adults, parents, supposedly functional to the extent that they can reproduce, hold down jobs and so on can be so utterly clueless as to think bleach in any form or concentration should be ingested by or injected into children.

Saddly, I have to wonder if your diligent deconstructions of the weapons grade stupid really has much effect considering the legions of apparently devoid of scruples people who rush to exploit the gullible. I also wonder why more of your colleagues are not engaging in this battle in a meaningful way? Is it not in some sense a duty of their profession?

You and your sane commenters provide an invaluable service, I hope you can keep it up for another couple of decades and that others will follow your lead. Thank you all for your selfless dedication to reason and reality.

We aims to please.

Some of us are commenting about MMS on other science blogs....like I am doing right now.

I don't know where you are posting from, but feel free to link to this blog....it could serve to get the word out there about this terrible abusive practice.

"Most of you posting are the type that would rather [elect to recieve treatments objectively shown to be effective, which possess well characterized safety profiles,] than [rely on treatments either not shown to be safe and effective, or which actually are known to be neither safe nor effective]."

Fixed that for you.

Denice Walter & lilady - Thanks for the acknowledgements. I always feel I should take not when acknowledged even if I am just tossing in an atta/girl comment because I have no relevant knowledge of the topics.

I have and will continue to link to this blog whenever and wherever on the net the context is appropriate. I have told all my friends and associates about it and urged them to take a look and pay attention. I will continue to do that as well, I just sent an email with the link to the supplements post to several friends whom I know use them.

I am actually located in Brazil (here it is spelt Brasil) and though I have few internet correspondents I have shown more than a few people RI to raise their awareness about SBM in general and vaccine issues in particular.

I'm a geologist so I don't have much to say on these subjects though I have personal experience with a long list of exotic maladies, parasites etc. However, I like to think I know good scientific opinion when I see it, it isn't actually all that hard to recognize.

Thanks for being here.

SB - take note when...

In the UK, by and large, the description of 'Fabricated and Induced Illness' has now replaced diagnostic labels aimed at the abusive parent. The idea is that labels like 'Munchausens by Proxy' imply the parent is suffering from a mental illness which diminishes their culpability - apparently the term was originally coined to describe a pattern of abuse rather than a psychiatric illness (I heard this at a recent child protection training conference, so it might not be correct).
'Fabricated & Induced Illness' switches the focus back to the child.
I would tend to agree with those approach - there doesn't seem to be much evidence that parents are suffering from mental illness and the prognosis is bleak - so I think MBP is best though of as a pattern/type of abuse and attempt at explaining the motive for this abuse; rather than an illness in the parent.

I've looked at the NHS website, and they cite one of the reasons for 'Fabricated and Induced Illness' being a preferable term as:

"The term Munchausen syndrome by proxy has been misinterpreted as a psychiatric diagnosis when, in fact, it was designed to describe a particular pattern of abuse"

Will the autism "biomed" underground ever renounce using bleach to treat autism?

oracknows — Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:04:11 +0000

Will the autism "biomed" underground ever renounce using bleach to treat autism?

I know, I know, I've been writing about MMS a lot. Don't worry. Barring some unforeseen development, this will probably be the last one for a while. However, I just had to comment again because this is just too funny (not to mention that I didn't have a lot of time last night because, yes, I had to work on a grant application). Remember how I mentioned the pro-MMS petition in which Jim Humble, the man who had the revelation that you can bleach away whatever disease you're suffering from, demanded that Emily Willingham (who did a Change.org petition demanding that Kerri Rivera stop treating autism with bleach enemas) stop calling MMS bleach, even though that's one of the main things that the chemical in MMS is used for.

Now, the amusing thing is that Jim Humble's petition to tell Emily to stop calling MMS bleach has only reached 47 of its target of 1,000,000. (Hint to Mr. Humble: Realistic targets are a good idea. They make you look somewhat less pathetic.) But what's even funnier that I forgot to mention is that some of the comments are clearly...well, let's just put it this way: They're not friends of Humble's cause. For instance, there's a commenter and signer who calls himself Credulous Nimrod, and he explains why he supports MMS:

Just because this is exactly the same chemical as bleach doesn't mean Emily should call it bleach! This is because of reasons. And quantum mechanics. And I trust that Jim Humble would never lie to desperate parents just because he's selling this product for a profit! Enough of the medical establishment and their "science" and their "first, do no harm." We want pointless feel-good actions that take advantage of our sadness and our scientific illiteracy!

And a guy named Igor K.:

Stop the fearmongering. Just because sodium chlorite bleaches through oxidation and is grouped with other chlorine bleaches that operate in a similar fashion (i.e. chlorine dioxide, chlorine, and calcium hypochlorite) does not make it a bleach. That its industrial manufacturers label it as such also means nothing. I regularly drink inappropriately named acidic drain cleaners to relieve constipation. That the public health agencies all over the world recognize MMS' risks as poisoning, renal failure, reduction of the ability of the blood to carry oxygen, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. To prove it, I volunteer myself along with everyone to sign this petition for a public demonstration where each person will consume a gallon of undiluted sodium chlorite without any deleterious health effects. Then, they will have to accept it as evidence of our correctness.

Then there's Darius Xym:

I'm signing this petition because I just walked into a wall and I feel a bit confused. In my temporarily impaired state I think it's a fabulous idea to administer concentrated industrial bleach to the rectums of vulnerable children to cure a brain disorder. It all makes perfect sense and anyone who thinks it is all criminally irresponsible and dangerous quackery promoted by one of the most vile hucksters should try walking into a wall themselves to see if alters their opinion.

I think I'll pass on Darius' advice. I do, however, think it's safe to say that only the fringe of the fringe of the fringe of the antivaccine fringe thinks it's a good idea to feed their autistic children bleach or, worse yet, administer bleach enemas to them, as Kerri Rivera advocates.

The question I have now is: Will Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, and all the other sponsors of the Autism One quackfest finally disavow Kerri Rivera and her bleach enema therapy? I would be shocked if they did. In the autism "biomed" underground, there is no quackery too quacky or too vile that someone, somewhere isn't subjecting her autistic child to it. At most, what will happen, as has been pointed out, is that Rivera won't be invited back to Autism One next year and discussion of MMS will be muted because of the embarrassment of the less reality-challenged members of the autism "biomed" underground.

And then someone else with quackery just as outrageous will speak at Autism One next year. Count on it. On the other hand, I could be wrong about that. After all Mark and David Geier keep getting invited back to Autism One year after year, and they advocate what is, in essence, chemical castration of autistic children. If advocating chemical castration won't get you disinvited from future Autism One conferences, my guess is that advocating bleach enemas will be no problem.

oracknows Tue, 06/12/2012 - 18:04

Tags

Antivaccine nonsense

complementary and alternative medicine

miracle mineral solution

MMS

complementary and alternative medicine

humor

Will Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, and all the other sponsors of the Autism One quackfest finally disavow Kerri Rivera and her bleach enema therapy?

If you reject one therapy because the rationale for using it is rooted in magical thinking and medieval physiology and are completely incompatible with all the other therapies being promoted at AO, or because its promoter is universally recognised as an unscrupulous huckster who's also selling it for 101 other ailments with nothing in common with autism, then it sets a bad precedent.

What the good doctor said. Public disavowal would leave the bad impression AO has been wrong about anything.

"Will Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, and all the other sponsors of the Autism One quackfest finally disavow Kerri Rivera and her bleach enema therapy?"

Maybe...only to replace it with fecal transplants. From skepchicks blog:

http://skepchick.org/2012/06/infiltrating-the-autismone-conference/

"Fecal Microbiota Transplants have been getting lots of attention on science podcasts and other news outlets lately. They seem to have a good deal of promise for people with C. difficile infections and various other GI issues. Borody talked about their documented (?) efficacy for conditions other than autism, including a few things I doubted it really could possibly cure. The way he tied this talk to the subject at hand was that he hoped the future (not yet available) powdered form of intestinal flora would be studied in children with ASD, as the current preferred method of recurrent enemas wouldn’t be viable/ethical for younger patients. I don’t doubt that some of the quacks in this community will not let such scruples stop them from offering this treatment: it’s not as bad as chemical castration, right? This is, of course, keeping in with Generation Recue’s clinging to the brain-gut connection as a pathological cause rather than a comorbidity for ASD. The way they jump on this concept as it gets researched in mainstream medicine (aka, “medicine”) reminds me of alt med people waving their hands and saying “quantum” when all else fails."

Just what is the fascination with a child's feces, for these parents?

Fecal enemas? Before or after the bleach ones?

Orac, are you sure that those commenters are not Poes? I can't imagine anyone making those arguments in that way and keeping a straight face.

@ ChrisP...Fecal enemas are a hot topic for *treatment* of autism. Here some parents are discussing do-it-yourself *treatments*...

http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22869

Can you say anally-fixated, ChrisP?

lilady, I am aware of the backstory. I first became aware of this practice following a visit to the website of a Dr. Sarah Myhill.

I find the whole concept of employing enemas on children (unless there are good medical reasons to do so) appalling. I am not sure which is worse feces or bleach. At least feces is biological, I suppose.

Consenting adults can of course do what they like to themselves and each other.

First time comment here, occasional reader.
A friend that was recently diagnosed with breast cancer was sent this link, from a well-meaning person: https://www.phhealth.co.uk/products-page/cds-replacement-for-mms/?gclid…

I understand from it that since MMS was removed from eBay and banned by ASA in the UK, JH has branched out in CDS, which is almost exactly the same thing as far as I can tell. I advised my friend to stay well away from anything related to JH, but if you guys have more info on CDS I'd be really grateful!
Cheers

Having had bleach in open wounds(mostly my owe carelessness) and having been the victim of child abuse I know that bleach is MORE painful than anal rape. Bleach in the rectum, an area with a very large number of blood vessels is just.... I don't know how to describe how that must feel. I am aware of how much pain those kids are going through and I really really want those quacks and the parents who choose to fall for them to experience what they are putting those kids through.

@Chris P.
Of course they are Poes, and Orac knows.

Sorry, that was meant for NOYDB and not you Chris...

Gah! I mean for Julian!

Biomed not the underground. It's the ground. This is autism, where science fears to tread.

@dingo: Now that you reminded me of the Poe phenomenon, I am a little apprehensive about my sarcastic proposal to demonstrate MMS's safety. Some individuals are so far removed from reality and self-doubt that I stopped trying to figure out which might be Poes. My attempts at satire can sometimes seem downright sane. I hope nobody takes my advice to ingest undiluted bleach seriously.

James T Todd - would you like some croutons with your word salad?

@jason T Todd - because the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on autism research yearly doesn't denote a certain amount of attention being paid by mainstream medicine.....moron.

At least feces is biological, I suppose.

So is botulism. Which at least is generally not administered as an enema--yet. (I home I'm not giving the Einsteins at Autism One any ideas.)

@Ben: I am so sorry you know what any of that feels like.

I just want to say,that I have had a lot of trouble posting comments in the last couple of days.On Monday,I tried posting about a message board thread I had found from 2009(!) about using MMS in everything from cancer in dogs,to diabetes in someone's 83 year old mother.

Yesterday,I tried posting about some really crazy stuff I found on the Son-Rise/Autism Treatment Center site about vaccines and metals,and information from elsewhere about how it differed from what Barry Neil Kaufman had originally planned the organization to be.Both of course had links.Each time,I got the error message about posting too fast.After a couple of tries,the posts went through,but never showed up.I know about mod queue when you post with links.I also know it's been crazy here in the last couple days,but have other people had problems?

The problem with so much of "alternative" medicine - especially, it seems, "alternative" autism therapies - is that they are so crazy and irrational that it is very difficult to lampoon them. As a literature prof once told me, "It's almost impossible to parody a farce."

I actually thought that one of these comments was serious, which only shows how off-the-rails crazy the autism "biomed" crowd is on a day-to-day basis.

Now to Orac's (rhetorical) question:

"Will Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, and all the other sponsors of the Autism One quackfest finally disavow Kerri Rivera and her bleach enema therapy?"

The answer is - of course - a resounding "No!". The reason for that answer is a bit more complex. AutismOne, GR and the rest, like their anti-intellectual forebears in "Defeat Autism Now!" ("DAN!"), realise that if they reject one "therapy" because it is irrational, disproven or downright dangerous, then the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

You see, I've been to their "conferences" and I've seen how it all works. There is a tacit agreement among all of the speakers, vendors and miscellaneous hucksters that "I won't mention the gaping holes in your logic if you don't mention the holes in mine."

This is why the AutismOne organisers eject reporters or anyone else who won't accept their unwritten rule of "Don't question anything the sponsors or speakers say.". They know - at some level - that there are wild contradictions even within the "Brave Maverick Doctors" who are their hallowed heroes. If they were to suspend the "Don't call out my quackery and I won't call out yours." rule, AutismOne would devolve into chaos and mayhem.

This is not exclusive to AutismOne - all of the pseudoscience types adhere to this unwritten rule. When was the last time you heard a chiropractor, for instance, say that homeopathy was nothing but water? Or a naturopath say that chiropractic was useless for anything other than muscular back pain? They know that their particular "discipline" can't stand up to scrutiny, so they deliberately don't aggravate their fellow quacktitioners.

As the old saying goes, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

So, when will AutismOne disavow bleach therapy (MMS)? Never. Or, at least, not until the skies are darkened by flocks of flying swine.

Prometheus

*hoots* Those are good. ;-) For those who have gone beyond reason, sometimes parody and mockery are the best answers. They are acting like fools, so it is appropriate that someone enhance the foolish presentation. Make it into a joke. That's another way of pulling the teeth out of dangerous propositions -- turn them into jokes so that the whole world can see the absurdity of it.

I doubt AutismOne will ever disavow *anything*. They might eventually quietly let it die, but my guess is they won't ever admit to having been wrong.

Nico @4:43 am : I complained to Stockport Trading standards over a week ago about that website (the company has a Stockport address). They told me they were aware of the MMS scam would be investigating. The UK Foods Standards agency banned the sale of MMS in the UKa couple of years ago - this company is trying to pass it of as a different substance.
But of course, its the same stuff - so maybe you could put in a complaint as well? It certainly wouldn't hurt.

Lenny Bruce did a routine that he called "Religions Incorporated," which is a satire on a convention for religious leaders. He has the conference chair lead off by stating the main rule: "There'll be no individual hustling." He then has the chair continue that they won't be successful "if we burn each other." I guess Prometheus' law (OK, so I just invented the term, but perhaps it is well earned) from the above comment should enter the lexicon.

There is a tacit agreement among all of the speakers, vendors and miscellaneous hucksters that “I won’t mention the gaping holes in your logic if you don’t mention the holes in mine.”

Professional Courtesy, like sharks refusing to eat lawyers.

The line of argument in these groups is that there are the "outsiders", who are evil and greedy and untrustworthy, and the "insiders", who are good and pure and always right. To criticize one of their own would be to suggest that every barrier they built around themselves would be for nothing. And thus, the paranoid are far more easily exploited than the trusting.

Way back in time, many, many moons ago (sorry this is another tale of the Medical Branch of Her Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy), we used a substance called Eusol.

I believe it was an acronym for Edinburgh University Solution of Lime and, like a lot of our medicaments, was made up as required by ourselves in our Sick Bays.

If memory serves it was 12.5ml of Chloros bleach made up to 100ml with water.

We used wicks soaked in this solution to pack deep wounds and sinuses (as in pilonidal, not as in frontal and maxilliary!) in order to help the wound heal from the bottom up.

It was very effective. And every time I post about something I was taught a little part of me dies as the realisation returns that I am a dinosaur.

A0 is back at it. What's next, muriatic acid (HCl)? -This is obviously nothing that any sane person would give to any living being to ingest for any legitimate purpose.

God forgive me. This comment will be misunderstood, but it is necessary in the pursuit of scientific discourse.
Administration of bleach enemas to autistic children is dangerous, and probably inhumane. Please do not do it.

The EPA website does state that people who consume aqueous chlorine dioxide “in excess of the maximum residual disinfectant level could experience nervous system effects.” I am not a physician, but I understand autism to be related to the nervous system. I also know that rectal administration of drugs is an effective way to enhance bioavailability of chemicals which are subject to first-pass hepatic extraction, and would minimize upper GI and respiratory effects related to oral administration.
These considerations do not permit exclusion of the scientifically testable possibility that administration of a bioavailable source of electropositive chlorine might have an effect on the condition.
Again:
Administration of bleach enemas to autistic children is dangerous, and probably inhumane. Please do not do it.

Peebs, before you turn into petroleum, could you write a book? Please?

Amazon still sells a couple different brands of MMS as sodium chlorite, water purification drops. It has been reported it to them as a product safety issue. We'll see if they remove it from their product line.

Article on Huffington Post about autism and MMS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

@ dingo 199: I posted on Todd Drezner's blog ~ 2 hours ago. I'm stuck in moderation (sigh).

Since autism web got an honorable mention on fecal transplants, I think it would be fair to mention that there was also posters on the forum who had come out against mms prior to the autism one conference. http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27568&hilit=mms

I of course highlight by own ignorance in that I first assume that mms is dioxin, but that leads to my question. If sodium dioxide produces dioxin during the industrial bleaching process, could it also produce dioxins inside those taking it as it encounters plant fibers [ingins] in the gut? Given as well that wood pulp is becoming a common food additive.

I remain surprised that people who claim there is no valid evidence that vaccines are safe (within reasonable definitions of safe) or that various drugs are effective (within reasonable definitions of effective) believe that a compound with no evidence of safety or efficacy promoted by a man who founded a fraudulent church is perfectly OK.

The inevitable has finally occurred. A crazed curebie mom has murdered her autistic child by pouring bleach down his throat.

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15546675

We all knew it would come to this, the question was when......

The when question of when was two years ago, Kelly. Tragic, but not new.

I hit submit on accident. I wish I could delete.

Anyway, on top of wanting to fix my bad grammar, I also wanted to add that the woman in that story wasn't a curebie, but it was an intentional murder of her son and a failed suicide of herself.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329855/Mother-Satpal-Kaur-Sing…

@Kelly M Bray - the article you quote is two years old, and the woman in question basically admitted she killed her son because she heard "voices in her head".

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/7339620-mother-killed-autisti…

I don't think this particular woman was a curebie. Her issues appeared to go way beyond that.

(Note: do NOT interpret this as support of MMS. I still think that treatment is as dangerous as Lupron, chelation, and all sort of other ridiculous "therapies" that have never been proven to do a thing for autism.)

From Julie Obradovic in response to to Todd Drezner's article at the HoPo:
"Your argument that Autism One should not have given MMS a venue regardless is fair. But to take issue with me and what I wrote, and to morph my observation of Autism One into a defense of MMS is not."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html#p…

@ Autismum: You're going to LOVE Todd Drezner's reply to Julie Obradovic...and mine as well. They'll be no weaseling out by the apologists from AoA.

I even managed to post about the incestuous relationship amongst Generation Rescue, Autism One, AoA, SafeMinds and the Canary Party. (I've learned about six degrees of separation, from my slumming activities at AoA)

I'm going for the celebratory vodka/tonic , now.

I have enough pain in my life without having to deal with idiots dosing their kids with bleach. Bleach. Seriously. What The F?
Bleach! Sodium Chlorite! By all the unholies, do none of these "curies" (shame, Marie Curie would be angry) read the use instructions or warning labels on any of this ? Holy Crap.

DLC -- I rather suspect that if you buy it as "Miracle Mineral Solution", it doesn't have any of the warnings on it....

shame, Marie Curie would be angry

Don't give them any more glowing ideas.

Oh, god, don't remind me. I read a chapter about old time treatments of cancer and couldn't stop twitching for days. They carried radium in their pockets back then.. gah! (Mind you, I couldn't use a microwave until well into my teens because I was so phobic about radiation.

"In their pockets"? No need for this coy euphemism!
http://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2010/09/radioactive-s…

The problem is that when your child has autism. Like I do. You begin slowly to lose faith in the medical establishment. It all begins by having your "trusted" pediatrician tell you "nothing is wrong, a lot of male children have issues with speech”, then it moves on to having to listen to a Dr tell you that your two year old will never amount to anything and that we need to make plans to have him locked up in a facility for the rest of his life. Then you hear of successes from Lovaas and company with ABA (but then it only really works for less than 50% of kiddos involved in his initial study. As you read more and more you enter into a world you never knew existed. One you are ill equipped to live in. A world of special diets, vitamin supplements and so on. You hear some folks have had success. You want to do what is best for your child. You feel uneducated…no matter what your original level of education is…you are at a loss. Then you think back at how the doctors you have met all along were also uneducated and how no one has “the key”. At this point you are willing to try anything. You get into the clinical trials database…you are now willing to experiment with your child. I’m an engineer with a solid knowledge base of statistics and I know full well how to design experiments to identify the better variables to optimize a production process. Then I see how “the establishment” performs these tests in their clinical trials and I know how things don’t look right. I know I will try anything. I haven’t seen the clinical trial on MMS…from the postings on this blog it would even be unethical to even consider doing one. I don’t know. One thing I know is that there will always be some shady unethical person trying to prey on the needs and desperation of somebody else…I’m just saying

Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) and autism at Autism One: Kerri Rivera's apologists strike back

oracknows — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 01:00:30 +0000

Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS) and autism at Autism One: Kerri Rivera's apologists strike back

A couple of weeks ago, I was horrified to learn of a new "biomed" treatment that has been apparently gaining popularity in autism circles. Actually, it's not just autism circles in which this treatment is being promoted. Before the "autism biomed" movement discovered it, this particular variety of "miracle cure" has been touted as a treatment for cancer, AIDS, hepatitis A,B and C, malaria, herpes, TB, and who knows what else. I'm referring to something called MMS, which stands for "miracle mineral solution." As I pointed out when I discovered its promotion for various maladies and then later when I discovered its promotion at the yearly antivaccine quackfest known as Autism One, MMS is a form of bleach. It's industrial strength bleach, actually, 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water. Before use, MMS is frequently diluted in acidic juices, such as orange juice, resulting in the formation of chlorine dioxide (ClO₂), which is, as the FDA characterized it in its warning about MMS, “a potent bleach used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment.”

You might be thinking now: Orac, that's a really nutty idea! Why on earth would anyone think that bleach would be a cure for anything other than stains? Well, as far as I can figure out, besides being told by God that MMS is a cure-all, a man named Jim Humble based his decision to bleach people's diseases away on the use of ClO₂ as an antimicrobial in water supplies. Of course, as I've pointed out before in detail, just because something kills bacteria in water or in a dish does not make it a good antibiotic. It's the same reason that colloidal silver is quackery. Colloidal silver is actually a pretty good topical antibiotic, but taking it internally it's impossible to achieve plasma levels adequate to have antimicrobial effects without undue toxicity. The same principle is in effect here. ClO₂ works very well as a water disinfectant, but trying to achieve plasma levels equivalent to those required to disinfect water is a straight line to toxicity, and failing to do so leaves all toxicity and no potential benefit.

More importantly, the hidden assumption behind Humble's selling of MMS as a miracle cure is that the diseases he's targeting are all due to microbes. Even if MMS were an effective antimicrobial and antibiotic (leaving aside the claims about how it can be useful for pretty much all bacteria, viruses, and parasites), this rationale is utter nonense when it comes to cancer and autism. While a few cancers have their origins in infectious diseases (H. pylori leading to stomach cancer or human papilloma virus leading to cervical cancer, for example), by the time the cancer has developed it's too late. Getting rid of the microbe won't reverse the cancer.

What really seemed to hit a nerve, though, was a presentation by Kerri Rivera see for yourself at the Autism One quackfest, in which she advocated MMS as an autism treatment. When I first wrote about it, the video wasn't posted yet, but now it is (see part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4) so that you can see for yourself that the talk is no different than what could be expected based on her handouts and her previous talks. That alone was bad enough, but she also advocated giving MMS to autistic children in the form of enemas, in essence claiming that bleach enemas can cure autism. Even worse (if that were possible), Rivera advocates "fever therapy" and views fevers after bleach enemas to be a good thing, a sign that the treatment is "working," much as Jim Humble gives MMS to treat adults in increasing doses until they start to feel ill. Indeed, Rivera even exults about how much she loves "fever therapy" and how it "wakes up the immune system." In addition to the bleach enemas, she recommends a "72-2" protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

In fact, posts by myself and others (such as Emily Willingham) about forcing autistic children to undergo bleach enemas in a vain attempt to "bleach the autism away," as I put it hit such a nerve that there is now a Change.org petition signed by over 1,500 people entitled No bleach enemas to "cure" autism in children!

Well, I guess there's nothing that quacks won't defend, because various advocates and quackery apologists are coming out of the woodwork to defend Rivera and her MMS protocol. For instance, Jim Humble himself has placed a counter-petition on Change.org that reads:

Stop telling people that MMS is bleach because it is not

Because there are some mothers that don't realize that Emily is wrong and they may never help their child to attain normalcy.

So, there! You evil skeptics! You're preventing parents from "recovering" their children from autism using bleach enemas! Stop it with your damned skepticism and insistence on science-based medicine! We believe MMS cures autism, and that's enough!

The petition also has only 31 signatures at this reading.

In any case, when looking for someone to defend the indefensible when it comes to autism quackery, there's only one place to go; so I went there. Yes, I'm referring to the antivaccine propaganda blog Age of Autism, where the ever-reliable Julie Obradovic wrote a piece about the Autism One quackfest entitled Autism One: Is there a doctor in the house? Ms. Obradovic is unhappy, too. She's unhappy about the blogosphere's take on Kerri Rivera and her bleach enemas:

Sometime that night I saw a nasty article already on the Internet about Autism One. To start the conference, there was one slamming it and The Chicago Sun Times. Now to end it, there was one slamming it and the parents who attend.

A blogger, who hadn’t attended the conference, but instead was regurgitating another blogger (who hadn’t attended the conference either), wrote an entire article about the inability to “bleach” the Autism out of a child. She was referring to MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children that hadn’t even been presented yet. It was on schedule for the next morning.

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized by people who seem loathe the mere idea of medically treating a child with Autism (with anything but pharmaceuticals, apparently). It seemed obsessive and premature, to say the least, and it was eerily reminiscent of what happened with other interventions in the past.

What other interventions are those? OSR, an industrial chelator that Boyd Haley tried to sell as a supplement to be used to treat autistic children, at least until the FDA finally stopped it? Chelation therapy itself, which can kill?

From what I can tell, Ms. Obradovic is referring to a post by Kristina Chew, which cited my earlier post about Ms. Rivera's MMS talk. Whichever posts Ms. Obradovic is referencing, one thing is clear. There are certain treatments that one doesn't have to experience for oneself and talks that one doesn't have to attend oneself to realize that they are fetid, stinking piles of horse droppings. It wasn't hard to glean what Kerri Rivera was going to say from her previous talks, her blurb about her Autism One talk, and her handouts. It was even easier to come to the educated opinion that what Ms. Rivera does to autistic children is pure quackery and quite likely child abuse. No wonder she practices in Mexico, the land where quacks who would be shut down in the U.S. go avoid pesky things like laws and regulations regarding medicine and the standard of care.

Note also Ms. Obradovic's framing of the issue. To her, it's not a matter of bloggers like myself being outraged because quacks like Kerri Rivera exist and subject autistic children to bleach enemas until they have diarrhea, calling that diarrhea "good" as long as it's "detox diarrhea." It's not a matter of us being puzzled and alarmed at how parents could buy into this quackery. Our criticisms, to her, are not a matter of our wanting to protect children who make up an especially vulnerable population, autistic children. Oh, no. To Ms. Obradovic, supporters of science-based medicine attack quacks like Ms. Rivera because we "loathe the mere idea of treating a child with Autism" with anything other than pharmaceuticals. This is, of course, utter nonsense, but I have no doubt that Ms. Obradovic really believes it.

So, in answer, I will assure her that I personally do not "loathe the mere idea of treating a child with Autism" with anything other than pharmaceuticals." In fact, I don't care whether a treatment for autism—or anything else for that matter—is pharmaceutical or otherwise. I only care that the treatment be based on sound science and supported by well-designed clinical trials. What I do loathe is the idea of treating a child with autism with a therapy that has not one whit of scientific evidence to support its plausibility, is potentially dangerous, and, at the very minimum, subjects autistic children to what is likely torture for many of them (enemas, even leaving aside the question of bleach) with no prior evidence that they are likely to benefit from the treatment. In brief, I loathe the idea of subjecting children, be they autistic or neurotypical, to such rank quackery. Come up with a plausible non-pharmaceutical treatment for autism with some real science—not crank rationales—behind it, and I'll be interested and possibly even support doing clinical trials if the preclinical evidence is compelling enough. In other words, I go where the evidence leads me, and it sure doesn't lead me to MMS.

Apparently not Ms. Obradovic, who proceeds to tone troll:

But mostly, the article irritated me for its tone. The author’s message was clear: parents who try these treatments are gullible, dangerous, and/or don’t love their children, and the people who pass them off are snake oil salesmen.

Some of these are straw men; others are not. The biggest straw man of all is that we claim that parents who try these treatments are gullible and/or don't love their children. The parents might be gullible, or they might just be insufficently scientifically sophisticated to recognize quackery. No one that I know of claims that these parents don't love their children. On the other hand, we do say that the people who pass such treatments off are snake oil salesmen, because they are, although it's an insult to snake oil to compare MMS to it. And that's OK. We're coming to a conclusion we consider reasonable based on the evidence. It doesn't matter whether someone like Jim Humble or Kerri Rivera actually believe in their snake oil. It's still snake oil. I'm sorry if Ms. Obradovic is offended to read that, but it's the truth.

Moreover, the actual purveyor of this snake oil, Ms. Rivera herself, is pretty pathetic when it comes to defending MMS. This can be best seen in her response to an open letter by Autismum criticizing her use of MMS to treat autistic children. Autismum's open letter is a blistering attack on MMS quackery that concludes:

Your “treatment” is abuse. It lacks plausibility. It lacks humanity. You advocate dosing autistic children with your over priced poison to treat the fantasy symptoms of candida such as, “laughter for no reason.” I love it when by 46lb, four year old Welsh boy laughs even if I can’t tell what’s tickling him. I won’t do a thing to prevent that.

So how did Ms. Rivera respond? With a non-response, actually:

You have your science all wrong. The websites that you site are incorrect. I wish you and your son all the best. Wonderful hearing your opinion. Everyone has one be it informed or misinformed.
Kerri

This is nothing more than argument by assertion. Ms. Rivera seems to think that simply asserting that her critics "have their science all wrong" is enough. She doesn't explain how we allegedly have our science wrong. She doesn't provide anything resembling decent scientific or clinical evidence to support her position and show that we are wrong. She doesn't even make a minimal attempt at a science- or evidence-based counterargument.

I'll close by noting that there might be some reason for hope. Even if the quackfest known as Autism One has no filters when it comes to allowing dangerous quackery to be presented, apparently Ms. Rivera's—shall we say?—novel treatment strategy using bleach enemas brought out some actual skepticism, at least about MMS, in the comments after Ms. Obradovic's defense of quackery. Some examples follow.

First, someone named Fielding J. Hurst, who in an earlier comment declared himself a believer in "biomed" treatments:

Chlorine Dioxide is the important part of this discussion. Your copy/paste is on Sodium Chlorite. Chlorine Dioxide has been shown to cause impaired thyroid and kidney function, as well as cause neurological impairment.

Also, there is a big difference in killing external pathogens and ingesting it. Bleach kills the pathogens by poisoning them, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to ingest it.

WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THAT GOOD BACTERIA IN THE GUT PROMOTED BY OTHER BIO-MED TREATMENTS THAT WORK? CAN SOMEONE NAME ME A BLEACH RESISTANT GOOD BACTERIA? I spent a decade healing my daughter's gut issues that I can easily see undone quickly with this stuff.

If we can't agree that it's not a MIRACLE, can we at least agree that IT'S NOT A FRICKIN' MINERAL. SOLUTION, yes. At least a little truth in the name.

My favorite tidbit from the Archbishop Humble ... IT'S NOT REAL DIARRHEA! Thank goodness. Fake Pseudo Diarrhea is very good for you. It's a sign of a miracle in progress.

OK, there's no actual evidence that the "other" biomed treatments "work" any better than MMS, but at least most of them aren't bleach. Oh, wait. They are things like hyperbaric oxygen, chelation therapy, bizarre diets, supplements, and other things equally potentially harmful. Never mind. At least Mr. Hurst realizes that MMS is quackery—unlike all that other quackery. That's a start. Perhaps that skepticism will blossom and spread to a lot of the other autism "biomed" quackery out there.

Then there's someone by the 'nym tiredmom:

I believe that autism is a fully-recoverable gut disorder, that the children are suffering and deserve treatment. That being said I think that there is A LOT of snake oil in the biomed world of autism. Autism is awful and parents are desperate and will try anything. I have also observed that we don't demand a lot from whoever comes out with a new product. We don't demand that they prove anything to us because they are one of the few who are telling us that they believe in our kids and are trying to help. I have had parents admit to me that certain doctors or supplement people asked them to endorse their products or program and gave them free supplies. I think we have to become a lot more skeptical. I don't believe we can always trust other parents' opinions. While there are many biomed treatments that help and even recover children many children get better in the early years without any intervention but if the parent is trying a certain biomed protocol at the time or even therapy they will credit that.

I was amazed that there was actually a comment recognizing that some autistic children improve on their own and that many parents trying biomedical woo mistakenly attribute such improvement to the quackery du jour they're using. Unfortunately, the vast majority of comments were more supportive, at least tolerating Ms. Rivera's quackery, like this comment by RisperDON'T:

Whatever happened to the Mercury apologists, "The dose makes the poison?" Gone?

Naysayers trashed and got OSR removed from the market for it's origin as a waste water treatment before revision for human use by one of the nation's leading University chemists.

Fluoride was suggested as a pesticide early on.

And many FDA approved (and off label use) drugs today have known toxicity including death (e.g. chemo) and those who refuse it are considered the quacks.

This is, of course, a typical fallacy used by defenders of quackery: Because real science-based medicine has side effects and complications, criticizing pseudoscientific treatments for their potential side effects is unfair. I am impressed, however, that Ms. Obradovic managed to restrain herself from pointing out how some chemotherapies still used (nitrogen mustards like cyclophosphamide and melphalan) had their origins as chemical warfare agents. Be that as it may, the difference is, of course, that these real medical treatments have scientific evidence and clinical trials showing that they work, how they work, and that the benefits outweigh the risks. MMS has nothing of the sort.

In the end, regardless of what other "biomedical" treatments are beloved at Autism One, I keep holding out hope that the organizers of Autism One would be able to realize that there are some things that are so beyond the pale that they don't belong even at Autism One. I agree with Sullivan and Emily on this count that the organizers of Autism One should renounce such quackery, in particular Kerri Rivera. Unfortunately, I also realize that this will never happen because, apparently, offering "hope" to parents of children with autism requires never "judging" and remaining "open-minded." Unfortunately, we all know what happens when you are too open-minded. Your brains fall out.

oracknows Sun, 06/10/2012 - 21:00

Categories

Medicine

Jim Humble also promotes administering MMS intravenously if the vomiting and the diarrhea are bad enough to stop the recipient receiving them by the usual routes.

If you want to see how crazy some MMS fans are, just look at reviews of Jim Humble's books and videos are on places like Amazon and YouTube. It's all extreme paranoia about "big pharma" coupled with a general lack of critical thinking and anecdotes galore. I think it would be fun to bait these people.

Jim Humble also promotes administering MMS intravenously if the vomiting and the diarrhea are bad enough to stop the recipient receiving them by the usual routes.

O.o.

Holy-moley - they have a problem with the "toxins" in vaccines, but are just fine with giving their kids bleach directly injected into the bloodstream?

What kind of bath crystals are these people on?

I haven't seen anyone explicitly advise inflicting intravenous MMS on *children* -- they just talk about "the patient" -- but I could only read so far, despite a notoriously high threshold of disgust.

There is also any number of nutters who reckon that because MMS is a powerful oxidant (YAY! GOOD!), while DMSO is a powerful antioxidant (YAY! GOOD!), therefore the two should be combined in a drugs cocktail that would be DOUBLEPLUS GOOD.

I guess I don't understand the assertion that MMS isn't bleach. That's pretty basic chemistry.

NaClO2 - Sodium Chlorite. Chemicals.
C9H8O4 Aspirin. Chemicals.
Why is one a DEADLY PHARMACEUTICAL and the other is a Miracle Solution ? (btw: sodium chlorite is neither a mineral nor a miracle. )
Second: why is this idiot permitted to sell this crap ?
Are there not laws against administering a noxious substance ? or poisoning ? How come these evil pustules on the ass of society aren't behind bars ? because they claim it's treatment ? I could set up a storefront and claim kicking the crap out of cancer patients was curing them, that wouldn't make it true and it wouldn't immunize me from prosecution for assault.

PS: love the brainless bear (?)

I don't remember where I found that online, but I use it in my talks. :-)

The use is Inexcusable and indefensible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_dioxide

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=24870&loc=ec_rcs

Slightly off topic, but there is a new TED talk about autism which should raise a few hackles. http://www.ted.com/talks/ami_klin_a_new_way_to_diagnose_autism.html
Ami Klin claims to be able to diagnose autism with eye tracking software at 6 months and younger.

On her Facebook page, Alison MacNeil is promoting the pro-MMS petition on change.org. You may remember her - she's the daughter of Robert MacNeil, the famous journalist, whom she persuaded to make "An embarrassing, reckless, and irresponsible coda to Robert MacNeil’s career".

http://sethmnookin.com/2011/04/18/an-embarrassing-reckless-and-irrespon…

Not only does she want her friends to sign the petition, she also posted a picture of a T-shirt that was emblazoned with: "Enema MacNeil", with the caption "hey ARI? I'm with Kerri". It seems she wore this while attending Autism One.

It seems safe to assume that Robert MacNeil's son is being subjected to bleach enemas.

Edit - Robert MacNeil's GRANDSON.

It struck me as really odd that something most people at the conference didn’t even know much about had already been completely scrutinized

Because MMS is not new. Ask Rhys Martin, who wrote about it in 2010.

bleach enemas

a “72-2″ protocol that involves making children drink dilute bleach every two hours for 72 hours.

MMS, a treatment being used for gut problems in some children

With so much bleach attacking your children's gut flora (not to mention irritating the intestine itself), if they don't have gut problems at first, they will after the treatment.

Are they trying to prove Wakefield right by creating a bunch of autisitic children with guts issues?

Just where the pluperfect hell is Child Protective Services when you need them?

fusilier
James 2:24

Following on from DLCs comments

Bleach = sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl) which would be a "nasty chemical" if In a vaccine. Is a lot less than natural then formaldehyde (I am not aware of any natural sources) and is made in chemical plants by big nasty chemical companies. Maybe the Autisim groups are In the pay of "big Chemical".

Bleach is also a powerful oxidant which presumably is bad as antioxidants are good.

Good on Autismum for posing questions to Kerri Rivera. The response from Rivera "says it all". This non-doctor, non-scientist who is an acolyte of Jim Humble and who operates beyond our borders *claims* that the specialized autism clinic that she operates is to enable poor Mexican children to have the benefits of chelation, MMS and other biomedical interventions. She also *claims* to have *cured* children who were diagnosed as having autism.

Why is the ex-pat in Mexico? Where is the proof that she has *cured* any child? These questions go unanswered...and will remain unanswered for the simple fact that she is fronting for Jim Humble and is out of the reach of the FDA and any local or State Child Protective Agency.

The groupies over at AoA, and the parents who are dosing their kids with MMS are hard-nosed child abusers. And, no, I disagree that the parents who feed their kids MMS and who shove MMS solution enemas into their children are well meaning loving parents who don't understand the dangers and pain that they subject their children to. They look at their children as lab guinea pigs, they see their children writhing in pain, they see the tears and the fear of the "treatments" in their childrens' eyes. And, the damage they do to their children is no different than the damage that would be inflicted by a sick deviant stranger.

Take a look at some of the links on Macneil's Facebook page.Autism recovery with homeopathy is one.

Making the rounds today I seem to spot a trend:
@ AoA, Mr Olmsted chastises the use of the anti-malarial, mefloquinine ( Lariam) by the American military.
Ms Conrick praises NAC ( I've been hearing about it for years *chez* idiot)
@ TMR, Ms Mamacita describes the deleterious effects of GMOs and food additives.
Orac cites a commenter 'nymmed "RisperDON'T". ( Risperdal is an atypical anti-psychotic sometimes prescribed to children with ASDs)
Some anti-vaxxers defend MMS while despising vaccines.

They appear to be labelling standard pharmaceuticals and technical innovations as *Verboten* while accepting non-pharma products as acceptable whether they be supplements or industrial bleaches or chelators. I guess it depends on who is selling the treatment.

Some of these parents load their children with handfuls of supplements that are un-tested and rail about doctors recommending Risperdal et al : they recount these tales of force feeding pills as though they were proud of their mis-use of their children.

I believe that one AJW really focused attention on the spurious autism/ GI connection- Andy's project- the gift that keeps on giving . More bad ideas.

@ DLC: I think that it's a bunny with a removable brain
-btw- someone gave me a plastic wind-up toy that is a brain on 2 feet that walks about.

OT- but I think that it fits in extremely well

Over @ Quackwatch**, I just learned that legal action based on Gary Null's infamously bad batch of supplemental powders, ( covered by Orac in April, 2010) that sickened him and several customers, has been partially resolved : 2 of the 6 who were hospitalised settled their suits for undisclosed amounts BUT a fellow representting his mother, who died, continues on behalf of her estate.

Remember this is the dude who writes about how SBM is killing people by the hundreds of thousands.
If you google his name, Barrett's article is amongst the first few hits. Guess that's why he switched his main activites over to a crock called PRN.

** last paragraph of Barrett's article on the quack; Dr B links to the suits.

I'm blushing!
There is some fella, Alejandro Diaz, doing the rounds of the blogs defending Kerri Rivera and MMS. It's quite fun to see him contradict himself from one to another and his grasp of chemistry, well, lack of it, is hilarious.
and DLC, I think you'll find that's lop-eared rabbit and not a bear. Maybe it's a dog. I don't know but I want one.

Oh my goodness! An amigurami critter with removable brain! Am I weird that I find it adorable and hilarious at the same time?

That anyone would be suckered by MMS is depressing, but hey, go back a hundred years and folks were paying big bucks to have (presumed) billy goat testicles implanted in their abdomens. Or look at the trial of the "lady" down in Florida who was caught giving cheap buttock enhancement procedures that basically consisted of injecting caulk into people's backsides. (Yes, with a caulk gun.) There really is a sucker born every minute.

I think the people who do this to their kids do actually love their children. It's hard to understand, but consider this: a great many abusers love their children too, even though they hit them. It's much more complicated than "love = do good things to the people you love". You'd *think* it would be that simple, but these are people we're talking about, and people are anything but simple. Abusers usually aren't fully aware of how badly they're treating their children; they're in denial. And people who overmedicate their children (whether with approved drugs or not) are also often so far down the rabbit hole they aren't looking at the situation dispassionately; they become so focused on the cure and chasing a possible future that they don't notice the present. Of course, it's hard to be dispassionate anyway when it's your kids we're talking about. I can definitely see how some might think any treatment is worth trying.

@ Denice Walter: Also at AoA...after Stagmom offered up a lame disclaimer about MMS...she *claims* that AoA does not endorse MMS or any other bizarre *treatment*...there have been no more comments posted. I suspect that the thread is now closed. Too bad. I was busy re-posting the comments on Science blogs just so people are aware of what these child abusers are doing to their children.

Yeah... 'we don't want no stinkin' aluminum or mercury in our kids!'

"Bleach and Ionic silver? Those are GREAT!"

I don't get it. I just don't. Their ignorance is truly staggering. The whole 'if it isn't BIG PHARMA it must be GOOD" idea is just grotesque.

Colloidal silver is my pet peeve. Sure - let's give our special snowflakes ionic silver, which is toxic to pretty much every organism out there - and even better, it's nano silver!

Particles small enough to pass through the cell membrane by diffusion alone (and the blood brain barrier) - along with being taken up by the Na+ pumps into the cell.

/headdesk

DMSO is NOT fun stuff. It reacts very badly with my skin. I definitely wouldn't want to mix the two together. Not sure what the final reaction might be, but I do know that DMSO is supposed to draw things into the tissues (there are those who argue against a DMSO instillation cocktail for interstitial cystitis including lidocaine for that reason, though some have suggested a "rescue instillation" including lidocaine after a DMSO instillation might not be unsafe).

I have never heard of DMSO taken orally - is the mixture suggested for topical application for people who are having issues taking it orally?

The latest things with MMS makes me wonder how more alt-med lovers aren't dead.

@ Calli Arcale: While it is true that convicted child batterers and child murderers all *claim* to love their children, they are violent pugnacious individuals who work out their aggressions on their children. The end result is that their children are irreparably harmed emotionally and physically and...just as dead... as if the sicko pervert around the corner used these children to satisfy his/her sadistic appetite.

These parents are similar to the religious zealots who believe their child is possessed and subject their children to rituals to cast out the demons. Here the demons are parasites, fungi, bacteria and other pathogens and heavy metals and vaccines that need to be *treated*. They are looking for the easy fix, rather than devoting their time and energies to help their kids. They are consumed with anger at their *situation* and view their children as being dirty infested beings. They experiment with their children behind closed doors and deliberately hide their *treatments* from other family members. They know damn well that society views their *treatments* as child abuse and when they are *caught* by Child Protective Services, they claim to love their child.

Why does AoA defend the actions of the disgraced Wakefield and the Geiers? Why are these child-abusing characters giving a platform at Autism One and why are the groupies providing financial support to Wakefield. The answer is simple, their judgement is warped and their moral compasses and their parenting skill are non-existent.

I've often been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal because I believe that many people who are caught up in the criminal justice system can be rehabilitated, if given a chance. My compassion does not extend to child abusers.

@ lilady:

The fans also live vicariously through the bold, maverick, rebel paradigm-shifters (i.e woo-meisters): as AJW shall re-educate the corruption-ridden world of SBM, they will also bask in the radiant sunlight as they intone," I told you so!" along with him; the SB nay-sayers shall have their comeuppance and all will be right with the world.

I think that the ever-spouting geysers of woo serve as role models for the fans' own activities: writing, speaking, selling useless ( or dangerous) crap to the un-suspecting and un-informed, being grandiosity personified.If you peruse anti-vaxx sites' facebook connections, you'll observe that they have thousands waiting in the wings.

-btw- you'll notice that ( in other thread) that my version of the esteemed ancient concoction requires better hootch! Family motto: "Better Hootch, Forward!" ( in Latin, I think)

@ Mrs Woo:

EVEN if the alt med treatments DO contribute to their demises, who can ever prove a link in a court of law? That would be a difficult task. See my comment above about Dr Barrett.

The latest things with MMS makes me wonder how more alt-med lovers aren’t dead.
Probably because they are clever enough not to take it themselves, only use it on their children (but those are lost anyway, so no harm done if they don't make it).

IMO it is of no importance whether parents giving their children "bleach therapy" love them or not.

What is important is that they are giving their children "bleach therapy".

And alt-med people always blame previous "allopathic treatments" for "weakening the patient too much for alt-med to save them." ~shakes head~

I sometimes get baffled by how hard it is to turn "true believers" around. Usually the best I can do with Mr Woo is make him angry pointing out ways that his newest alt-med treatment is illogical or unrealistic. Right now he's listening to one of his favorite "truth" websites that has assured him that the government has created the zombie virus and, in true New World Order style, has made us aware that it exists (according to Alex Jones, the NWO has rules that include telling us their plans but in ways that make them seem unbelievable).

To think, I'm skipping violin practice to not disturb him listening to it...?

"To think, I’m skipping violin practice to not disturb him listening to it…?"

Mrs Woo, you should be practicing your violin. Please don't tell me that you have the talent of Midori, though :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA0ugX-v5NU

@ Neil on Knees 8:43am

Bleach = sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl) which would be a “nasty chemical” if In a vaccine. Is a lot less than natural then formaldehyde (I am not aware of any natural sources)

Actually, that's not true, there is a very common natural source of hypochlorites in all mammals: the phagolysosome inside our macrophages and other bug-eating white cells.
(see Wikipedia article on hypochlorite for this)
But note how it is inside a very specialized vacuole, the in-cell version of a NBC suit, and how transient it is.
It seems evolution spend some effort segregating super-oxidizing molecules. There doesn't seem to be a strong benefit in having them free-roaming in the blood stream ...

according to Alex Jones, the NWO has rules that include telling us their plans but in ways that make them seem unbelievable

My understanding of this was that the Masons have a duty to reveal their intentions but are allowed to do so cryptically. Minor difference.

The biggest straw man of all is that we claim that parents who try these treatments are gullible and/or don’t love their children. The parents might be gullible, or they might just be insufficently scientifically sophisticated to recognize quackery. No one that I know of claims that these parents don’t love their children.

I know you are loathe to cast such judgement but I did just say it. http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/06/open-letter-to-biomeddlers.html

You may disagree but I simply can't see how anyone can subject their children to these vile "treatments" and exploit them out of love. I have to agree with lilady on this one.

That bunny is both cute and terrifying.

I hate to say but I will anyway: parents may actually GAIN- at least socially- from their child's condition- Freud wrote about 'secondary gain' wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to "make-up" for other losses experienced- so, we might call this "secondary gain by proxy". I am not saying that this is done *deliberately* or even consciously but some folks that I can NAME ( or refer to by 'nym) became semi-famous because of their association with the Cause: they write books and posts about autism, they're lauded as brave martyr parents, they are listed amongst the elect or suchlike.

Woo advocates' cavalier notion about diagnosis and treatment by the untrained is rather scary itself: remember, these are the people who gripe about how real doctors and psychologists *label* their children and its "un-professionalism".

So glad that working in this part of the field is not my metier.

MMS has been touted to cure Lyme disease too. Which only makes sense because Lyme causes autism, of course. :-(

@ Science Mom: Thanks for taking a stand against these abusing parents. Your statement on your blog is exactly what should be stated to these sadist parents.

We have stood by while kids have been maimed and killed by *interventions* and haven't as yet labeled their actions as abusive. It must be something is our collective psyches that we make excuses for parents who maim their children..."they are well meaning or well intentioned", "they are gullible", "they are uneducated and ignorant about dangerous treatments"...Ad infinitum. We just cannot comprehend that a parent would knowingly endanger or injure their child.

There are malevolent people in this world and abuse of a child doesn't magically change to not a case of abuse, because the abuser is identified as the child's parent.

If you have convinced yourself that autism is a fate worse than death, then I can certainly see parents believing that trying MMS is better than the alternative. I don't believe, other than in highly unusual situations, that these parents are intentionally malicious. Hopelessly misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

I'm sorry but I can't beleive anyone, much less a parent, believing oral bleach, intravenous bleach or bleach enema'a are a reasonable alternative to anything under any circumstances.

Whether they're misguded or acting out of malice, they're still abusing children.

lilady, I think you missed my point. What abusers do to their children is absolutely wrong, and certainly damages the children. Sometimes they even kill their children. But we should not make the mistake of assuming that they are all lying when they say they love their children. Nor should we assume all abusers have the same motivations for what they do.

The ones who are taking out their anger on a convenient target -- many of those probably do genuinely love their children, which makes the situation all the more tragic. It would probably be easier if the parents were just assholes, honestly. Love makes it worse, then. A parent who is unfit to parent can be blinded by their love for their children and refuse to be separated from them. We idolize those who do the right thing, and rightly so, because it is better to give up your children out of love because you recognize they are better off without you. But love makes it harder, because it hurts more to lose them. Addicts, philanderers, people with anger management issues . . . . They often mean well. They just don't *do* well. And the hell of it is, sometimes they realize just what a horror they're putting their families through. Some will use that as a moment of clarity, and break the cycle; others will simply spiral further down in response.

With people who subject their children to woo....

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn't love the children, why wouldn't they just abandon them? I can't make sense of their actions except as Munchausen's by Proxy or by a deep and potent love that has blinded the parent and made them far too eager to grasp at offers of hope. I've seen that happen. I am sure that most, and quite possibly all, of these people on AoA and other sites do love their children.

Love can be abusive, though. To assume that an abuser doesn't love is to gravely underestimate the extent of abuse, and overestimate the power of love. Love, without reason, can lead to quite horrifying outcomes. In Camaroon, some women iron their daughters' chests in hopes of reducing the size of their breasts. It doesn't work, but they do it anyway, because they love their daughters. They think that making them less attractive will reduce their risk of being raped. That doesn't work either, of course, but they keep trying, and the results can be as agonizingly horrific as any burn can be.

I don’t believe, other than in highly unusual situations, that these parents are intentionally malicious. Hopelessly misguided, perhaps, but not evil.

I respectfully disagree. If you can look at your child and STILL think it's a good idea to jack them up with bleach, or inject chelators, immunoglobulins, force-feed them anti-fungals and antibiotics then you are evil and have no humanity.

Freud wrote about ‘secondary gain’ wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to “make-up” for other losses experienced- so, we might call this “secondary gain by proxy”.

The AoA people talk about autism as the New Epidemic, not noticing that the *real* epidemic is of Munchausen-by-Proxy.

@ Denice Walter:

"Freud wrote about ‘secondary gain’ wherein a person who is ill uses that condtion to his or her advantage -perhaps to “make-up” for other losses experienced- so, we might call this “secondary gain by proxy”.

Can you say Munchausen-By-Proxy-Syndrome, Denice? Its odd that much discussion is taking place about the changes in the DSM 5 diagnostic criteria pertaining to autism. (Truly outside of my area of expertise), but perhaps there should be a new subgroup under Munchausen-By-Proxy to describe the abuse of a developmentally disabled child.

I would "propose" that this new subgroup is marked by parents who are immature, who haven't accepted their child's differences from the "norm", who have a preexisting degree of narcissism, who are angry and prone to histrionics, who view themselves as martyrs, who have a distrust of science, who are in denial and are publicity seekers, who need constant reinforcement from their "group" and...who seize an opportunity to "capitalize on their child" by pimping their stories on anti-vaccine websites.

If superglue is involved, it's Munchausen-by-Epoxy.

Actually that would be Munchausen-by-cyanoacrylate ...

This bleach thing really, really makes me think of all the old tales about changelings. You surely know the folk tale - if your child starts to behave strangely, cries all the time, makes faces, looks disfigured - it's not your child anymore, your child has been taken by elves and what is in the crib, is their changeling. So what you do? Start beating the changeling until its mother comes to save it and brings your own child in return.

I have never heard of DMSO taken orally – is the mixture suggested for topical application for people who are having issues taking it orally?

The Great Google reveals that while some people are mixing DMSO into their MMS and applying to the skin, others are indeed drinking it.

I've always felt that AJW's project sounded like MBP: inventing an illness where there was none,
subjecting children in his charge to unnecessary tests, getting attention from the process...

but I can't say that because we should never diagnosis anyone over the 'net....
doens't mean that our minds will not go where the situation leads them..

@ Cali, you are a kind and considerate person and I think it's going to come down to agreeing to disagree. The biomeddlers aren't culturally or educationally isolated, on the contrary, they go on and on about how 'educated' they are. So they have no excuse for what they are doing and some actively hide what they are doing. I'll concede that they may have some excruciatingly warped remnant of love for their children but have dehumanised them so extensively that they convince themselves that only they care enough or are the only ones to "recover" them. Recover them from what? Drug addiction? Cancer? Infectious disease? If they truly loved the child there in front of them, there is no way (in my opinion) that they could inflict the damage they do and brag about it no less. No, this is about the selfish parents.

@ Calli Arcale: And, I think you missed my point. Let me rephrase some of my prior statements, for clarity.

The love that you describe as being well-meaning and misinterpreted, is a sick love. Even the most intellectually impaired child will recoil from oral doses of industrial strength chemicals because of the memory of prior doses that caused that child to puke. The parents who shove catheters up their kids rectums to instill caustic enemas see the fear on their child's face, the tears welling up and see their child writhing in pain as they are dealing with agonizing bowel cramps. Their feces, after repeated bowel cleansings are not formed; they are watery and acidic and they excoriate the delicate rectal tissue. Yet, the parents still persist with the ritual purgings.

"With people who subject their children to woo….

They are spending huge amounts of money, many of them. They honestly believe this is what is good for their children, that there is some hope. If they didn’t love the children, why wouldn’t they just abandon them?"

Why would you equate the money that is spent on these "treatments" with parental love, Calli? They don't "abandon them" because they would lose face in the community and within the group on websites. Having people who are unaware that you are abusing your child and who heap praises on you for caring for your child and being a "martyr" in your own perverse mind, fulfills a sick need for these abusers. They are powerful motivators to hang on to your child.

I might add Calli, that this subset of Munchausen-By-Proxy parents are slick. They do their "treatments" behind closed doors and back off their "treatments" before their children becomes so dehydrated or so anemic that they require hospitalization.

Please Calli, do not compare certain practices such as genital mutilation that takes place in Africa or breast "ironing", which are being condemned by educated people in those same societies...and roundly condemned by everyone outside of those closed societies.

Years ago, in the Western World, certain ethnic groups had the xenophobic and dynasty-building practice of marrying off young virgins to older cousins. In China, they used to bind the feet of upper class young girls...to make them more desirable. Those practices have all been abandoned, because of our enlightened attitudes.

These abusing parents live in a society that does not abuse our kids, we don't have a close male relative who "prepares" a young woman for marriage. We don't...with the exception of certain cults...hand over 10 year old girls...to pleasure old men. We don't countenance psychological, emotional or physical abuse by teachers or caregivers who we entrust our children with. Child abuse is child abuse, even if the abuser tries to hide behind the label of parent.

You are defending the indefensible, Calli.

The Great Google reveals that while some people are mixing DMSO into their MMS and applying to the skin, others are indeed drinking it.

Is it just me, or is this the height of irony? (Yes, I know what they mean.)

@ Calli Arcade:

Don't forget the "Ashley Treatment" for some severely disabled children -- keeping them small and preventing puberty. And one of the reasons the parents have this done is to prevent sex abuse. It's easy for me to talk, but I can't get my mind around this, particulary the last reason! If someone is so sick as to rape a helpless person, "infantilizing" (if that's the right word) the patient won't stop it.

This is not even woo!

@ Queen Khentkawes

We all agree that woo is pretty terrible, but there are many, many differences between the Ashley Treatment and woo. If you haven't seen it yet, here is the parent's rationale for the Ashley treatment in one slide
http://pillowangel.org/AT-Summary.pdf

Ethically controversial? Yes.

However there are some clear medical benefits to Ashley, and every procedure, even though some were invasive, was a legitimate medical procedure with clear data about risks and side effects. Unlike the haphazard treatment of children with bleach, which is never a good idea.

Also, if you really read the entire case, I believe the parent's had Ashley's best interests in mind, not their own.

If you have specific questions about that treatment, let me know. We just had a very in-depth presentation on the topic in my ethics in healthcare research, practice, and policy class.

@ccs

The Ashley Treatment is a false dilemma regarding the potential for sexual abuse. Abusers abuse children (and other peoples) regardless of their size, puberty, mental capacity or even if they wore burka (no offense intended to burka). There is absolutely no correlation regarding sexual abuse potential and puberty or not puberty.

The other reason are entirely valid but the potential for sexual abuse in that case is bullshit.

@ Autistic Lurker

You are probably right, I honestly know nothing about that topic. Could you link to the data that you are referring to that says there is no correlation between abusers and the people they choose to abuse?

However, the comment I was replying to above said the Ashley Treatment was referring to the Ashley Treatment as being comparable to woo. I was arguing that it is not, mainly due to the medical reasons for many of the procedures. Maybe if you fixate on the treatment as a way to prevent abuse and ignore everything else, you could argue that it was unethical, but I would argue that overall, it was an ethically justified procedure.

Also, in my opinion, regardless of the preferences (or lack thereof) of abusers, the Ashley Treatment is a very powerful way to prevent abuse, because it allows the child to stay under the care of his/her parents, as opposed to institutionalization.

Ugh! We need more science education in America!

by one of the nation’s leading University chemists

What? E. J. Corey was involved? Richard Heck? Barry Sharpless? That commenter wouldn’t know a “leading University chemist” if he met one.

Yeah, I know there’s that thing we call “Nobel disease” but Boyd Haley’s not on that list. And (no offense to intended to residents of KY or alumni and students) the University of Kentucky isn’t exactly a scientific mecca.

I think it's worth noting, at least in passing, that MMS might conceivably benefit some people. By producing a strong base, the solution would predictably neutralize stomach acid, which COULD be a good thing, IF (as most obviously in the case of ulcers) a condition involved either an excessive amount of stomach acid or a weakening of the stomach lining. And, if the person is on the autism spectrum, it's plausible that, by alleviating the GI condition, autism symptoms could be mitigated simply by reducing stress. Of course, none of these possibilities are in evidence in the presentation material.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

Calli Arcale, ScienceMom, and Lilady: re loving your children.

This is where I’d like to repost Kelly M Bray’s comment from May 16th, but I botched saving the link and can’t find the original comment (it has been reposted elsewhere; perhaps Kelly would be willing to repost it again on Just the Vax in the comments to Science Mom’s latest post). The comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought about it a lot.

To paraphrase: what would you change about your child? Nothing.

Myself, I’d like to get my children to modify some of their bad habits, but that’s about it. As I said, the comment resonated with me, and I’ve thought a lot about it. While my kids fall under the umbrella of “normal,” they aren’t exactly “typical” and it has not always been easy being their parent. But, like Kelly, I wouldn’t have it any other way.

@lurker,
"Abusers abuse children (and other peoples) regardless of their size, puberty, mental capacity "

This is true for offenders in general, but NOT for individuals. By accepted wisdom, the victims of a single offender will fall within a quite narrow range of ages. Of course, that doesn't make arresting physical development any more useful.

I suspect that this is, in no small part, a case of expressing legitimate but unpleasant concerns in euphemism. The most obvious REAL problem is that a mentally handicapped but physically fully developed woman can get pregnant (and probably will NOT use "protection" on her own initiative!), and possibly have an equally disabled child. There's also foreseeable problems where mental functioning is just high enough that a "partner" might claim "apparent" consent with some plausibility.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

David Brown @7:20

predictably neutralize stomach acid
We have medications like Prevacid and Zantac for that, with the added bonus that they don't destroy the patients' intestinal membranes.

I cringe when I read the comment from the mother who mistook slough off of from the damage done to her child's intestine as a proof of dead parasites.

I've seen slough off: In my child's case, the damage was done by dairy products - and you know what? I stopped giving them to her!

Total HTML and proof reading fail. Obviously, my quotation of David ends at "acid."

@css:

Uh, dude, parents and relatives abuse children all the time, and the abuse often happens in the home. I wouldn't present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that's demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go be ill over in the corner. While I recognize that Ashley's parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn't want a woman's body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant. I can't verbalize well why it bugs me, aside from feeling like Ashley is viewed as a thing to be changed at will and not a person.

@ ccs:

I was reacting more to Calli Arcade's post than the bleach, and I should have made that clear. Having said that:

1. The argument can certainly be made that stopping growth makes it easier on both the child and the caregiver.

2. The argument can certainly be made in favor of sterilization of the child. Personally, I think it's a slippery slope, but that's just me. I can see why the parents would worry about a pregnancy.

3. But to say that all this will protect the child from sexual abuse is nonsensical. Aside from the fact that they may be institutionalized at some point, the parents have to protect their child from everyone who comes in the house. This "small size as protection" argument is woo and ought not be made.

4. I have to echo Nashira here. "Pillow angel" sounds to me like a demotion from "person" and I don't like that.

One application of DMSO in research settings is as a 'vehicle' to carry other drugs, chemicals, metals and allergens through the skin. We call this 'painting'. The DMSO is mixed with the compound of interest and the mixture is brushed onto a small area of exposed skin.....and vuala!

This MMS story just keeps getting scarier.

Did anyone hear Rivera describe how the "72-2" protocol was conceived? In the video I watched, Rivera told a story about a desperate parent using a 'standard' MMS treatment involving treating only during the day. Apparently, this mother lay awake at night wondering whether the parasites might have plenty of time to grow while she was sleeping (and therefore not able to bleach her poor child), so....yep, you guessed it, the mom devised an 3 day torture protocol that she felt wouldn't give the parasites time to grow. Rivera was so moved by this that she immediately adopted the protocol as standard procedure. Now that's science-based medicine!

I remembered where Kelly M Bray's repost was:
http://autismjungle.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/two-comments-on-respectful…
Thank you, Julian

Honest question. I've heard this idea a few times now:

'I believe that autism is a fully-recoverable gut disorder, that the children are suffering and deserve treatment"
(sorry, suck at html, and without preview, can't be bothered trying)

I don't get this - my, admittedly limited, exposure to autism suggests there's a problem somewhere with the brain - not the gut. How the hell do they explain the idea that a problem in the gut is causing autism?

Meg, it is because when Richard Barr was looking for someone to provide "research" to support a lawsuit in the UK, the person he found willing to do fraud for cash was Andrew Wakefield. Since Wakefield was a gastroenterologist he tied it all to the "gut."

Meg, here is the full story in graphic novel form:
http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.com/2010/05/facts-in-case-of-dr-andre…

lilady:
I am not defending the indefensible. You are misunderstanding me, apparently thinking I am defending child abuse. I AM NOT, and I am offended that you think so. I am well aware that child abuse is reprehensible. My point is that telling these people "you obviously don't love your children" is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it's a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

The world is not black and white, lilady, divided into good people and evil people, with good people incapable of evil acts. Quite the contrary. People are a mixture of both, and are fallible. They can be fooled, they can be deluded, and they can deceive even themselves without realizing they are doing it. And there is no greater evil than that which is done out of love. "It's good for him. She'll thank me when she's grown. This is better than the alternative. We must beat the demon out." (I met an exorcist once. Now *that* was a surreal experience. Luckily, not one which believed in beating the devil out, but still very very weird.)

Jeebus, this comment just showed up on my blog:

Amanzo, mother of Liam (3)June 11, 2012 9:03 PM

MMS is NOT bleach! If anyone would take the time to understand the chemistry behind the substance, you would have proper information to THEN evaluate. Chlorine dioxide is SAFE in the ways we use it with children and people. It is a compound produced by our immune system. Anyone who doesn't believe autism is an immune-disorder needs only see the lists of food sensitivity my child has. I will help restore my child's body to health - because I love him and want the best for his future. I believe in MMS and Kerri Rivera. Please research more before you sign this petition.

My point is that telling these people “you obviously don’t love your children” is a) wrong and b) counterproductive, because it’s a great way of making people defensive. You want them to hate you? Go ahead and tell them they hate their children; I can guarantee you it will only reinforce their views.

Calli, these are people who are completely immune to reason, evidence, logic and humanity. They already hate "us"; we're the enemy remember? We're "pharma whores", "shills" and "vaccine-pushers". These are people who intentionally isolate themselves from criticism and dissent, people who initiate lawsuits against their critics, threaten people's employment, threaten people's safety and the safety of their children and who stalk their critics. This is not a nice and rational group of people. Education doesn't work, compassion doesn't work so what do you suggest? They need a wake-up call, if for nothing than yes, to put them on the defensive. Because their repugnant and defiant defence of abuse may prevent others from going down the same road.

Calli...let's agree to disagree. I personally don't care if they hate me for calling them out for their abuse of their children.

I don't talk around an issue of blatant child abuse and I will not give them "a pass" or let them cop of plea of ignorance, because they are "misunderstood" and "only want the best for their child".

I obviously do not share your view of the world and your view that good people commit evil acts, simply because they "can". These cold and unfeeling abusers, have severe mental problems that they refuse to acknowledge or get help for. They would rather work out their anger on their defenseless kids.

Just remember Calli, that for every abusive parent, there are enablers; a spouse, another family member or a neighbor who "prefers" to not "get involved"...the abusers count on this.

Child abuse is everyone's business.

Science Mom, it seems that most of the "MMS is not bleach" comments on several blogs are very similar. It reeks of sock puppetry.

@ccs

the data is personal, I've met 2 peoples who fit the criteria of abusers.

A.L.

Meg@10:00 GI disease does not cause autism.They are both part of any number of complex multisystemic syndromes,in which autism is only an obvious outward presentation.

This simple fact is something so few seem to be able to grasp.People on both sides of this issue.People who have neither lived with one of these diseases,or bothered to do any real research beyond blogs and news articles,only see autism as what is in the DSM,nothing more,nothing less.They are completely clueless.*

On the other hand,you have the antivax people who are so warped and twisted about the cause,so dedicated to their ideas,and like the religious cult they truly are,desperate for new converts. **

Frankly,I don't know why researchers like Natowicz,Swedo,and Ramaekers bother to find these syndromes,and metabolic links.There are few of us on the spectrum,who will ever be tested.and the studies always get twisted,and misinterpreted,by the likes of AoA,to fit their agenda.I would argue this is on purpose.

Calli Arcle@10:45 pm

They hate us already.Antivaxers do see everything in black and white.

*And if Ari Ne'eman,and ASAN have their way,the basic criteria in the DSM will be further watered down,by allowing people who meet even less of the full criteria for ASD to be diagnosed.Thus further padding the numbers,and fueling more fear mongering about an "autism epidemic".Feeding on one another,like a snake eating its tail.

**One more "gambit" the antivax people like to pull,is the "our kids are unique gambit".This implies there were never any children born with autism,and complex medical issues,born before 1990 or so.

@Chris 10.34 - I know the history of Wakefield's involvement, but my understanding of his study was that the gut issues were evidence that the MMR vaccine had caused Autism/regression etc. The quote was 'a gut disorder' causes Autism. If anything, would bowel issues be a symptom of Autism?

@Roger 12.28 - I never suggested GI causes Autism - my question was WHY do people believe that it does? I know that the anti-vaxers often show amazing lack of logic/rational thinking, but this seems strange.

What in the gut could possibly cause the brain to 'misfunction' for lack of a better term? Or is it simply because that is one of the symptoms that seems the most obvious, or 'easiest to fix'? I just struggle to see the connection, and hence the reason for MMS or other such barbaric treatments.

Meg, there was a claim by him that is was all connected.

There are papers that show intestinal issues are not unique to autism, and not in every autistic child. There could be a connection with the limited diet and behaviors in autism that could cause the intestinal issues. Kind of like my normally developing son refusing to eat certain foods caused his constipation.

@Science Mom

That's the standard fallback, "You don't understand the chemistry!"

The chemistry is quite simple. 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water.

NaClO2: it's not 'Clorox' bleach (NaClO) - it's a stronger oxidizer and bleaching agent. It may not be clorox, but it still functions as bleach.

Trying to say it isn't bleach is like saying an El Camino isn't a car, because it has a truck's bed. Potato-potahto. I

What scares the bejeesus out of me are websites like this one, "http://www.realrawfood.com/how-make-mms" which are so full of fail it's amazing.

"MMS is light sensitive so you must bottle it in a very dark glass or plastic bottle, or in dark opaque plastic. Dark green, blue, or brown transparent plastic is okay. The light that goes through these dark colours will not harm the MMS. Don’t worry about the MMS being out in the daylight for a couple of days. However, never allow it to set in the direct sunlight. Sunlight will ruin it in an hour even when it’s in a dark plastic bottle"

Ok - so it can't get sunlight - but dno't worry about it being out in the daylight for a couple of days, but don't set it in direct sunlight, since it'll ruin it in an hour.

WTF?

@chemmomo 7:51,
I would have figured that there would be medications available for dealing with genuine excessive stomach acid. The issue of intestinal damage would certainly make a dedicated medication preferrable to a "basic chem" solution... though, I must say, losing a layer of lining WOULD take care of parasites, if they are really there. Not that that would help a great deal: Removing mature parasites from a patient doesn't take care of the eggs or larvae in the environment, which can and probably will find their way in again sooner or later.

@Chris etc,
I suspect that there is a real association of autism, and more serious symptomologies within the spectrum, with GI issues mostly for one reason: Any GI problem is a source of stress, and that stress can and probably will contribute to autistic behaviors. If the problem can be treated medically, it should not be surprising if ASD symptomology improves.

meg,

What in the gut could possibly cause the brain to ‘misfunction’ for lack of a better term?

As I recall the idea is that damage to the gut (by measles virus, parasites or whatever) makes it 'leaky' allowing partially digested food, such as gluten, to enter the bloodstream and affect the developing brain by mimicking neurotransmitters. 'Leaky gut syndrome' is blamed for a wide variety of symptoms in CAM circles, and ties in with notions of gut dysbiosis, intestinal candida, parasitic infections and toxemia, which are all common CAM preoccupations. Needless to say there doesn't seem to be a great deal of evidence for any of this.

Meg, the 'gut disorders cause autism' claim is part of the belief in Leaky Gut Syndrome. According to Wakefield, the MMR vaccine causes minute holes in the intestines which allow evil Toxic Proteins to escape into the bloodstream, head straight for the brain and mess up the neurons there.

I just had to let rip after I read this which includes:
" I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month and see the hoards of worms come out of them, then watch the clarity and vibrance your child experiences….the words that come from their mouths, the appropriateness of their actions…they sleep, their bowels normalize, they smile, they speak and they laugh, but this time, for the RIGHT reasons."
I got all Science Mom on her behind.
http://autismum.com/2012/05/30/re-uk-4-years-old-46-pounds/#comment-1334
I wonder if there so ready to boast about their abuse beyond the internet and quackfests?

Worms, you say? Autistic children are wormy? I have to wonder why a parent who believes her child has worms would not need to be de-wormed herself. After all, it's clear the child and parent are exposed to the same environment and would both be subject to the same parasites.

@Autismum--
I read the first line of that quote:
"I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month"
And thought it would be good to stop there.

As I have commented elsewhere, the parallels are surprisingly similar between this behaviour by parents of autistic kids and the way in which certain churches "brought up" the kids under their charge.

Mental and physical indignities, punishments and purgations, all in the name of Christ and all done with "love" and a clear conscience because it would create a better, purer end product. The end justifies the means.

Many of the "good intentioned" perpetrators of this abuse have had to finally recant and the church has had to make reparation for the awful acts commited in its name.

Would be that people realise that some of these autism cures are tantamount to the same thing, and that the perpetrators are of the same mind set and need to be exposed for what they are.

"hoards [sic] of worms"?

Shoot the pets, I say.
And definitely no dolphin swimming (have you seen what nasty things they get up to?)

I don't mean to sound like a fascist, but I don't understand how anyone could really consider a human with basically no higher brain activity to be a "person," other than in the broadest legal sense. That seems just a little too close to those "fetal personhood" bills to me, frankly, or like saying Terri Schiavo was alive in any meaningful sense. Human, yes, but a person? You must think of personhood very differently than I do, I guess, because it just seems to me that there's no there there.

I worry about Ashley Whoever's parents too, but probably for a completely different reason than you do.

I would challenge any of you parents to try the MMS protocol for even one month and see the hoards of worms come out of them, then watch the clarity and vibrance your child experiences

From the experience I got with my own guts, I have no problem believing that one would have a feeling of clarity and vibrance after spending a few days on potty pot speed-dial.
To start with, the lack of proper feeding makes me light-headed; and most importantly, thanks goodness IT'S OVER.

Yeah, I bet these poor childs are very happy when Mom stop giving them those foul-smelling potions.

From Mephistopheles

I have to wonder why a parent who believes her child has worms would not need to be de-wormed herself.

As the happy owner of a (now late) cat who regularly brought back wriggling guests from his countryside forays, I completely agree. Let's say we quickly learned to improve our hygiene.
My mom used to buy two deworming products: one for the cat, one for the humans. Synchronized cure for all the family.

I got all Science Mom on her behind

Heh, you certainly did. These parents are monsters.

@ Chris, sadly I don't think these are sock puppets with the exception of the one who commented on my blog and "Autumn" who commented on Autismum's blog. This one thinks that "our immune systems" produce chlorine dioxide so MMS is good for us. These mental contortions are excruciating for me to watch.

@ Dawry, oh don't worry, I corrected her statements, for all the good it will do for someone intent on "fixing" her child.

@ Science Mom

This one thinks that “our immune systems” produce chlorine dioxide so MMS is good for us.

And ants produce formic acid up to 1% in concentration, so that's why ants are immune to acid. No, wait, they are not, they "spit" their acid at one another, with deadly effects.

Actually, as I pointed earlier on this thread, our white cells do produce hypochlorite to destroy the organisms they phagocyted. But funny enough, our white cells are careful not to release it outside of their phagolyzosome.

My immunology is a bit rusty, but I remember dimly an immune disorder, something like "phagocytose frustration", where white cells fail to phagocyte an allergen absorbed on other cells' surface and will then release the content of their lyzosome on the poor cells. The results are not pleasant.

lilady, et al,

The people we see ranting and raving about the evils of vaccination are lost to reason. We probably have no real chance of reaching them. But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don't want to put on the defensive. It doesn't matter what you do -- you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice.

Besides which, you're "othering" them. While this has a long and venerable tradition, it doesn't get you any closer to understanding why people fall into woo, which means it also doesn't get you any closer to *preventing* more people from falling into woo. Yes, it does allow for a nice cathartic rant, but if a nice cathartic rant is all you're after, maybe we've got different objectives here.

And yes, the ranters hate us. Is that any excuse for us to do the same to them? If it's so wrong, why should we do it too? What is the *point*?

Oh wow, I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing "Leaky Gut Syndrome." It got lost in all of his other fabrications.

Actually, as I pointed earlier on this thread, our white cells do produce hypochlorite to destroy the organisms they phagocyted. But funny enough, our white cells are careful not to release it outside of their phagolyzosome.

Yes but let's not let that inconvenient fact get in the way of bleaching their kids. They also ignore the health detriments of high blood levels of myeloperoxidase when that does happen. The whole antioxidants are beneficial thing seems to have escaped them.

@ Chris:

Like I always say- Andy's "project"- the gift that keeps on giving**

If you think about it, he's only in his mid-50s... hmmm... let's see, white guy, well-to-do, married... should have a life expectancy... well, he'll probably be around for many, many years.
I doubt he'll stop spouting his nonsense as long as he has breath in him
Aren't we sceptics lucky?

** like the clap

I didn't see anyone else mention this regarding the petition by Emily Willingham and the counter petition Jim Humble. While Emily Willingham' petition has a reasonable goal of 2500 signatures, I notice that Jim Humble has the lofty (and seriously out of touch) goal of a million signatures. The hubris of that figure is astounding.

... which makes the current 45 signatures (which has not changed since I last looked yesterday) look a bit pathetic.

Trying to say it isn’t bleach is like saying an El Camino isn’t a car, because it has a truck’s bed.

I think they've modified things so that the prohibition is construed by license-plate class, but I've heard at least one legitimate recounting of someone getting ticketed for driving an El Camino on Chicago's Lake Shore Drive (which forbids truck traffic for most of its length).

like the clap

The Clap is a rousing acoustic guitar solo by Steve Howe that shows amazing virtuosity, and yes I do like it.

Oh, you must mean the venereal disease. Never mind.

… which makes the current 45 signatures (which has not changed since I last looked yesterday) look a bit pathetic.

Especially since some of the signatures are surely jokes. For instance, I saw one by someone listing himself as "Credulous Nimrod."

@Calli Arcale -

*claps hands quietly*

Nicely done.
- pD

Credulous Nimrod? Now that's funny. :-D It about sums up the usefulness of such petitions.

I've gotten pretty cynical about the value of change.org petitions, but I went and signed this one anyway. I think it's an absolute disgrace that folks like Humble are able to get away with this, when it's causing real, tangible harm. I think there is a case for getting Child Protective Services involved in some of these; when the child is suffering serious side-effects such as vomiting and diarrhea and getting no gain whatsoever yet the parents persist, that should support a case for medical neglect.

@Chris -

Oh wow, I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.” It got lost in all of his other fabrications.

Alterations of the intestinal barrier in patients with autism spectrum disorders and in their first-degree relatives.

A high percentage of abnormal IPT values were found among patients with autism (36.7%) and their relatives (21.2%) compared with normal subjects (4.8%). Patients with autism on a reported gluten-casein-free diet had significantly lower IPT values compared with those who were on an unrestricted diet and controls. Gastrointestinal symptoms were present in 46.7% of children with autism: constipation (45.5%), diarrhoea (34.1%), and others (alternating diarrhoea/constipation, abdominal pain, etc: 15.9%). FC was elevated in 24.4% of patients with autism and in 11.6% of their relatives; it was not, however, correlated with abnormal IPT value

Note: This study contained more patients with autism than all other tests of permiability combined.

Food for thought.

- pD

@ Calli, yes there is a cathartic element to my declaration. But there is also this, these beastly parents have turned this into a pissing contest by crowing endlessly on about how they LOVE their children because LOOK how much we are doing to HELP them and you're not. I'm fed up and yea, when the stakes are this high, I'm calling bullshit on their professed love for their children.

Chris,

I completely forgot about Wakefield inventing “Leaky Gut Syndrome.”

I don't think he invented it, I pretty sure he plugged into an existing set of beliefs.

BTW though sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide do kill pathogens, they do so at a concentration that it is toxic to humans. Here are some ballpark calculations I have posted here before that are perhaps worth repeating:

I calculate that the minimum dose of MMS required to achieve blood concentrations of chlorine dioxide required to kill any pathogens is going to be a toxic, close to lethal dose.

Since MMS is 28% sodium chlorite that's 28 grams in 100 ml
0.28 grams or 280 milligrams in 1 ml
There are about 28 drops in 1 ml
So 1 drop contains about 10 mg sodium chlorite

Assume a blood volume of 5 litres and that all the sodium chlorite ends up converted to chlorine dioxide and dissolved in the blood (in fact only a small percentage is likely to end up in the blood)
1 drop of MMS, or 10 mg sodium chlorite diluted in 5 liters
2 mg per litre
0.002 grams per litre
0.0002 grams per 100 ml
Which is a 0.0002% solution
15 drops (the recommended dose that should be built up to) dissolved in 5 liters of blood would be a 0.003% or 30 mg/l solution (a little lower than that when converted to chlorine dioxide, and a lot lower when you consider that not all will be absorbed, but I'll ignore that).

What concentration of chlorine dioxide is required to kill Staphylococcus aureus, for example?

http://iadr.confex.com/iadr/2008Toronto/techprogram/abstract_105534.htm
"In MIC test the lowest MIC value of chlorine dioxide gel (0.02% w/v) was obtained for S. aureus, S. mitis and S. constellatus. The other bacteria and pool samples of dental biofilm indicated slightly higher MIC values (0.2% w/v)" MIC = minimum inhibitory concentration

So if you ingested 15 drops of MMS, assuming that all of it was converted into chlorine dioxide and absorbed into the bloodstream, the concentration would be at least 10 times and more likely 100 times too low to inhibit (not kill) Staphylococcus aureus.

LD50 in rats is 165 mg/kg, so assuming humans react similarly (rats tend to be more resistant to toxins than humans), the lethal dose in a 70 kg human, would be about 12,000 mg, or 12 grams, which is about 80 times the recommended dose of 150 mg (15 drops at 10mg per drop). A suicide attempt in which 10g of sodium chlorite (NaClO2) taken orally caused refractory methemoglobinemia and nearly fatal kidney failure has been recorded.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8290712

So the minimum amount of MMS required to achieve a blood concentration high enough to kill S. aureus is dangerously close to the lethal dose. In practice, as not all the sodium chlorite will be converted to chlorine dioxide, and not all the chlorine dioxide will be absorbed, the blood concentrations achievable with the prescribed 15 drops are likely to be much lower than I calculated. I can't see any way that MMS can kill blood borne pathogens at a dose that would not make a person very ill or even kill them.

Compare that to ciprofloxacin (chosen as it is a favorite bete noire in CAM circles) which has a MIC for S. aureus of less than 4 μg/ml = 4 mg/l
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC89096/
Assuming a dose of 500 mg and a blood volume of 5 liters, that gives a blood concentration of about 100 mg/l which is 25 times higher than the MIC for S. aureus (again in practice not all will be absorbed or be bioavailable, but this is only a rough estimate).

Ciprofloxacin is also far less toxic than MMS. LD50 for MMS in rats is 165 mg/kg, LD50 for ciprofloxacin in mice and rats is in excess of 5000 mg/kg. Assuming humans are equally susceptible a lethal dose of MMS in a 70 kg human would be 12 grams, a lethal dose of ciprofloxacin greater than 350 grams.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8290712
http://www.alcon.ca/pdf/Product_pharma/Product_pharma_ciprodex_eng.pdf

I found this article on the prosecution of some snake oil vendors up in the pacific northwest. The comment section is awash in the mindset of those in thrall to altie woo. I imagine that they pretty much just made up all of the many "miracles" they have sworn they witnessed, since there are no names or citations for a single one of these stories. They're like faith healers and I wonder how many of them are deluded and how many are just charlatans since quite a few of the most vociferous defenders of MMS seem to be selling it. What a surprise.

I also discovered that I use Chlorine Dioxide twice a day in the form of CloSys mouth rinse. My dentist did however go to great pains to tell me not to fekking swallow it!

"But when we speak to them on the Internet, we are heard by more than just them. We are heard by the lurkers. For every one person who pontificates about the wonders of and who rants and raves about the horrible evil skeptics, there are probably dozens listening. They are the ones you don’t want to put on the defensive. It doesn’t matter what you do — you cannot reach the ranters. But you *can* reach the people who have gone to them for advice."

Precisely Calli...Of course the abusers are "unreachable" and I do realize that there are plenty of "lurkers" including the groupies at AoA (They have publicly pilloried me a number of times).

I would hope that some of the fence-sitters, who include the "enablers" (spouses, close friends and neighbors), would be taking positive steps to stop the abusing parents.

Dozens of science bloggers have described the properties of MMS and the banning of the chemical, when used for treatment of any human disease or disorder, by the FDA, Canada and the European Europe. Few have come out strongly against the abusing parents. The abusing parents "are not misunderstood", "they do not have their children's welfare as a priority" and they are not "good people who are capable of doing evil acts"...they are abusers...every bit as abusive as the pervert down the block who feeds a child poison and jams a catheter into their rectum to give a child a toxic enema.

I also posted in exquisite detail the awful pain, the cramping, the damage to delicate tissue and the abject fear that a child feels when subjected to these ritualistic repeated purgings, with the hope that anyone contemplating MMS treatments for any disorder, will reconsider. I have some "credentials" to post this information, as the parent of multiple handicapped and medically fragile child who underwent many medically-indicated, sometimes painful, diagnostic tests and procedures...and as a registered nurse.

Calli, stop lecturing me, stop labeling my posts as "rants" and stop assuming that I do not understand what motivates these abusers. We have differing opinions about what constitutes parental abuse.

anything other than pharmaceuticals

Is there any reason bleach isn't a pharmaceutical beyond the fact that SBM doesn't use it as a drug?

@Andreas Johansson: the reason bleach isn't a pharmaceutical is because it is toxic to humans and doesn't have proven benefits that outweigh its side effects.

More relevantly for this discussion, it is advocated by "good people" not us Evul Farma Shilz.

@Julian Frost: I don't think it works that way. Frex, drugs that get withdrawn due to unexpected side-effects are still considered pharmaceuticals aren't they?

@Beamup: That's little more than a restatement of my question (if Evul Farma Shilz were advocating it, Evul Farma and its minions in the medical profession would soon enough be hawking it).

Put another way, is there a way of dividing biologically active chemicals into pharmaceuticals and nonpharmaceuticals other than whether the medical establishment is in favour of its medicinal use? (Well, besides nonpharmaceuticals = what I like, pharmaceuticals = what you like, you moneygrubbing pharma shill scum, which I sort of suspect is the distinction Obradovic uses.)

@ Andreas Johansson
"Is there any reason bleach isn’t a pharmaceutical beyond the fact that SBM doesn’t use it as a drug?"

These links for a start...describing what disinfectants and antiseptics are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinfectant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiseptics

There's a big difference between swabbing on an antiseptic Povidone on human skin and purging with a disinfectant like MMS.

@Andreas

There is no peer reviewed research indicating that bleach is in any way a compound which serves a pharmaceutical purpose, as the MMS fans claim.

Furthermore, with 'homemade' MMS being promoted, you're running the risk of impurities and other toxic by-products forming in your solution.

Ingesting bleach or administering it via an enema is simply stupid. It is damaging to tissues, it is damaging to the liver and kidneys.

The potential for death is high - if the concentration is calculated wrong, you're looking at a very painful poisoning.

I’m getting the feeling I can’t say this enough times. I introduced my child to milk, and saw the slough off. The (nastiest ever! ) diapers tested positive for blood. The same thing these “Miracle” users are seeing.

It’s not parasites! Worms or whatever! It’s your own child’s formerly normally functioning cells, which you just destroyed with that “treatment.”

I cannot comprehend how anyone thinks that this process benefits the child.

@Darwy:

Swallowing a kilogram of ibuprofen is also stupid, yet ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical.

It seems to me the only reason ibuprofen is a pharmaceutical and MMS isn't is that the former has legitimate uses as a drug and the later does not. This would obviously render Obradovic's complaint nonsensical - she'd essentially be saying "you only use stuff that works, you bastards", which might be the implication of her statement but hardly what she means to say. So I'm asking if there's some reasonable sense (as opposed as a situational one made up by Obradovic) in which MMS still wouldn't be a pharmaceutical if it worked and was legitimately prescribed (as Obradovic thinks it should).

I don't see that lilady's links answers this in the affirmative. They define disinfectant and antiseptic in terms of what they're used for, with would go nicely with an operational definition of "pharmaceutical", roughly = drug prescribed by mainstream medicine.

As someone else pointed out, pharmaceuticals are tested and then marketed after they've been proven to be a successful treatment for a medical condition. I'm not sure what MMS treats other than the icky green stuff on the inside wall of your swimming pool.

@Andreas

A kg of ibuprofen is lethal. A very painful death, as well.

Pharmaceuticals are researched and tested, in vitro and in vivo. We can anticipate possible side effects of pharmaceuticals in this manner (along with comparing them to comparable compounds) It's also true that we cannot predict every drug interaction possible.

That's why we have monitoring - drugs that are known to have side effects (liver failure, for example) are prescribed sparingly or avoided in favor of another type of drug, which performs the same way, but not as damaging.

Diclofenac is one such drug. It's a wonderful NSAID, but it can cause liver damage. So, you don't prescribe it for folks who have impaired liver function, etc.

MMS has no such 'safety net' to fall back upon. It is not regulated - you can find 'homemade MMS' recipes on the internet - which means those individuals mixing their own run the risk of toxic impurities (chlorite) in their MMS.

There is simply no reason to damage your child's GI tract with a bleach product (and it is a bleach product) which will give no benefit to the child. It's abuse, plain and simple.

So I’m asking if there’s some reasonable sense (as opposed as a situational one made up by Obradovic) in which MMS still wouldn’t be a pharmaceutical if it worked and was legitimately prescribed (as Obradovic thinks it should).

No. There is not.

lilady,

You mean you haven't been banned from AoA?

Clearly you aren't trying hard enough.

Re:Mephistopheles O'Brien@12:47 pm

"Disco Jesus" from "Catch The Clap" is better.

Dance dance dance Disco Jesus.
You ought to see him do the hustle,
Up there on that funky cross.

The abusers who claim to have researched MMS have never found the substance in a PDR or within a drug manufacturer's prescribing information sheet.

Perhaps the abusers missed this Material Data Safety Sheet..

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924974

When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

@Darwy: I don't have any children, and if I did I'd rather swallow that kilogram of ibuprofen than "treat" them with bleach enemas. I do not understand why you seem to think I need to be told that torturing children is a bad idea or that bleach is bleach.

What I'm questioning is Obradovic (who does think torturing children is a good idea) 's "anything other than pharmaceuticals" line.

@Beamup: Thank you.

@ Roger...I didn't state that I have ever posted there :-)

@Andreas

I was using 'you' in the 'general' sense, and not referring to YOU specifically.

Det er ligesom at bruge ordet 'man' i stedet for 'du/dig' men der findes kun 'you' på engelsk, med mindre man bruger 'one' som er lidt gammeldags.

Obviously, it's not a pharnaceutical because it wasn't developed, patented by or sold to enrich the coffers of a Big Pharma conspirator like Merck, Glaxo, Pfizer, etc.

I really don't believe their thinking goes any farther than that.

@Darwy: Ah, okay. I'll point out though that it's very easy to assume something is directed specifically at you when it starts with @[your name]!

(Yes, I realize the irony of the general "you" above.)

I agree with Krebiozen about the leaky gut syndrome- AJW made use of GI fixations already widespread in Woo-topia.

Some of these crappy ideas are Candidiasis as a systemic illness and its psychological symptomatology - very popular 20 years ago ( Quackwatch has loads on yeast which I pointed out to Liz recently @ RI;
also see their "Be Wary of 'Fad' Diagnoses" and the Index of Fad Diagnoses, which lists 'leaky gut','dubious allergies' et al)

There have always been speculations about toxic GI conditions and ways to'de-tox' them.
Raphael Kellman regards the GI as a second brain.**
AJW has been recently quoted ( from AutismOne by an AoA commenter IIRC) saying that the "Brain bone is connected to the gut bone" or some other example of frighteningly bad prose

** true if you have...... ( complete the phrase)

Lilady,
There's a link to the MSDS for ibuprofen on this page. Mind you, it's for the pure stuff. http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/i4883?lang=en&region=…

The exact comments from two of the now 46 signatories.

Credulous Nimrod

Just because this is exactly the same chemical as bleach doesn't mean Emily should call it bleach! This is because of reasons. And quantum mechanics. And I trust that Jim Humble would never lie to desperate parents just because he's selling this product for a profit! Enough of the medical establishment and their "science" and their "first, do no harm." We want pointless feel-good actions that take advantage of our sadness and our scientific illiteracy!

and

Darius Xym

I'm signing this petition because I just walked into a wall and I feel a bit confused. In my temporarily impaired state I think it's a fabulous idea to administer concentrated industrial bleach to the rectums of vulnerable children to cure a brain disorder. It all makes perfect sense and anyone who thinks it is all criminally irresponsible and dangerous quackery promoted by one of the most vile hucksters should try walking into a wall themselves to see if alters their opinion.

Humble seems to have overestimated the number of MMS fans willing to put their money where their mouths are. On his "Genesis II-Church of Health and Healing" (gag) he's begging for money to build a war chest for the legal fight against the FDA. The response, as he reports himself, has been less than enthusiastic.

Over a week ago I sent out an urgent plea to donate to the MMS Defense fund. This fund has been set up to fight the FDA and their attempts to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

To date, the fund has received roughly $10,000.00 in donations. It isn't nearly enough.

The fund needs close to $2 million to turn this fight into an all-out war against the FDA and what they are attempting to do to our health choices and MMS.

We don't have months to play around with this,
it has to be now.

Of the 175,000 people I sent the alert out to, 200 donated. First, thank you. Now, the rest of you, if you would give just $10.00 each, we would hit our mark and the FDA would tremble.

If we don't succeed in achieving this goal, all could be lost. In the end, "we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

Don't let your inaction allow the FDA to take away our personal health freedoms or MMS. Take a stand and give today. Tomorrow may be too late.

Credulous Nimrod

Best Puritan name ever.

Denice, just FYI the gut really does have a well developed intrinsic nervous system. It's frequently mentioned in GI physiology circles as having as many neurons as the spinal cord.

Of course, the last thing that those sensitive little neurons would like is a bleach bath...

LizDitz @5:30 --

"This is because of reasons. And quantum mechanics. "

priceless.

Liz Ditz

Grey ops do you think?!

p0 back, and more bleach... For those who crochet, any chance of obtaining something that looks like real straw to make a brainless straw man?

Thanks to Science Mom for sharing that amazing e-mail with us.

"Amanzo, mother of Liam (3)June 11, 2012 9:03 PM

MMS is NOT bleach! If anyone would take the time to understand the chemistry behind the substance, you would have proper information to THEN evaluate."

True, MMS (28% sodium chlorite in water) is not "bleach" (3 - 6% sodium hypochlorite in water); it is much worse. Chlorite is a more powerful oxidising agent than hypochlorite.

"Chlorine dioxide is SAFE in the ways we use it with children and people."

If it is diluted to the point where it is safe to ingest (or use as an enema), then MMS (sodium chlorite) is too dilute to have an impact on bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. On the other hand, if it is used in concentrations adequate to inhibit or kill pathogens, it is far too concentrated to ingest. What part of "not for internal use" don't they get?

"It is a compound produced by our immune system."

Yes, in very small quantities in a membrane-bound vesicle in cells that have shortened lifespans due to oxidative stress. This is not a reason to irrigate the gut with a sodium chlorite solution.

"I will help restore my child’s body to health – because I love him and want the best for his future."

Good intentions are no shield against bad decisions.

"I believe in MMS and Kerri Rivera."

"Believing" without understanding is one of the most common ways good people trick themselves into bad decisions.

I don't doubt that "Amanzo" loves her child and wants him to get better - what I doubt are her choices.

Prometheus

@ sheepmilker:

I know... thus the well-known GI symptoms related to stress et al- which I -btw- know about all-too-well
However, the woo version is much more scifi than SB

@ Nashira

"I wouldn’t present institutionalization as though it automatically guarantees sexual abuse whereas home is safe and sound, because that’s demonstrably not true. I also think it does a pretty big disservice to non-parental carers by implying that they are all predators waiting to pounce."

That would be a strawman argument, because I said none of those things. However, I do think that in an institutional environment as opposed to home care, disabled children would be exposed to a wider range of caretakers who have the potential to be abusive. I also think that the parents' cared for their daughter in this case, and wanted to provide good care for her.

"While I recognize that Ashley’s parents are in a difficult situation, every time I read their thoughts, I feel like they just didn’t want a woman’s body interfering with the illusion of their perpetual infant."

Regardless of how you feel, strong arguments can be made for each of the procedures as ways to increase Ashley's quality of life in some way, not necessarily as a way of fulfilling some strange need of the parents. Also, why do you think that Ashley, an infant mentally, would be better served with an adult body?

@ Queen K.

"The argument can certainly be made in favor of sterilization of the child. Personally, I think it’s a slippery slope, but that’s just me. I can see why the parents would worry about a pregnancy."

Pregnancy, menstruation, uterine cancer (higher risk from the estrogen therapy http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22244658)
It wasn't all about sterilization and evil eugenics (slippery slope stuff).

"the parents have to protect their child from everyone who comes in the house."

This is true. My question would then be, where do you think it is more likely that a child will be better protected, at home by their parents or in an institution?

Also, minor detail, the parents stated that the breast bud removal had a tertiary benefit of avoidance of sexualization of Ashley towards her caregivers. Not the therapy to halt growth. They never made a "small size as protection" argument that I saw. The lack of sexualization in itself seems to be a very small part of the reasoning for the overall procedure, and attempting to tear holes in it while ignoring the rest of the procedure seems to me, counterproductive.

lilady @ 4:24 pm

When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

The compound (i.e., minus fillers) is sold by chemical suppliers, so it has to have one. I have however been unsuccessful at finding an actual MSDS to which I can link.

But you know what? Sand has an MSDS, and if you believe what's on it, sand is quite hazardous!

One thing we know.

These parents are saving the household budget for more important things. They obviously don't need to waste money on child safety locks for the cupboards holding all those dishwasher and other household cleaner items.

Save some money. Buy more bleach. Put it anywhere you like.

When anyone locates a MSDS for Ibuprofen, let me know.

I just copy-pastaed "MSDS for Ibuprofen" into the search thingy and poked the little magnifier icon. Guess what! Google gave me several pages of links to ibuprofen MSDSs! Magic! Don't you wish you could do the same? ;-) (I hope my legpulling makes it through the lack of preview.)

Andreas Johansson June 12, 2:40 pm

Is there any reason bleach isn’t a pharmaceutical beyond the fact that SBM doesn’t use it as a drug?

MMS is not a pharmaceutical only because the manufacturers and suppliers haven't applied to the FDA for pharmaceutical status, or even for API listing. It is listed by the FDA as a food-prep-grade pesticide, not for human consumption.
Currently, the Genesis II woogroup suggests using technical grade NaClO2 (EPA regulated as a pesticide) with USP citric acid. That's because NaClO2 is not available in a human-consumable grade; the Tech (and lower) grades admit to containing 0.1% Pb and Hg (per MSDS, not any real analysis, and per EPA poopsheet.). The EPA registered acidified sodium chlorite (ASC) pesticide is normally (it seems) made a point-of-use from technical-grade NaClO2 and USP-grade citric acid.
In all legal use cases for ASC, the EPA requires that the ASC be washed from anything that might be consumed. With the wash-off requirements in p[lace, ASC is also recognized by USDA and FDA as food-preparation pesticides (never for human or animal consumption).
There are no upsides and many downsides to listing MMS as a pharmaceutical or listing NaClO2 as an API.
The pharmaWOOtical clowns would have to give up their pretense of persecution by the FDA.
The substances they peddle would be required to meet rigorous standards for strength and purity (standards they do not currently meet).
The labelling on the substances would have to be accurate.
The manufacturing processes of the API and the pharmaceutical would have to be approved for controllability and repeatability, and be supervised for proper operation. Just think what that would do to the MMS manufacturing facilities masquerading as churches.
If you can get a drum of pesticide grade chlorite for a couple of bucks, why would you want to spend more to get a drum of safe, human-grade stuff?

Gee, I wonder what the EPA would think about unlicensed manufacture, sale, storage, transportation (in interstate commerce?) and off-label use of a licensed pesticide?
Without preview, I also wonder what this comment is going to look like.

The CAS for Ibuprofen is 15687-27-1

It has an oral LD 50 (rat) of 636 mg/kg.

If you follow http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/united-states.html

and enter the CAS #, it should give you the option for the MSDS.

I could get a link to it, but it'll be hellatiously long and ugly and I don't know that it'll actually come through the filter.

Hi, I am the Fielding Hurst you quoted above. My daughter had major gastrointestinal issues that diet and some other minor treatments have helped immensely. That said, there is a massive difference between a special diet and ingesting bleach. We avoid gluten, casein, sugar, dyes, preservatives and basically cook from scratch. This is more of just eating right instead of some vast treatment. That said, the never-ending runny poops stopped with diet interventions. Behavioral improvements are marginal at best, but no more runny poops and finally potty trained after a decade is enough for me. I got tired of arguing about MMS, but there is another heated discussion over at http://autismwars.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/mms/ where folks don't seem to grasp the difference between the safe levels of chlorine dioxide in drinking water and ingesting MMS directly. To be honest I really can't decipher all of the math flying around on mg/l, concentrations, and MMS dosage, but gather they are not comparing apples to apples. The also point to the following 30 year old study on drinking water as proof that MMS is totally safe, CONTROLLED CLINICAL EVALUATIONS OF CHLORINE DIOXIDE, CHLORITE AND CHLORATE IN MAN BY JUDITH R. LUBBERS, SUDHA CHAUAND AND JOSEPH R.BIANCHINE.

Unfortunately Mr. Hunt the math matters.

Your study http://www.vce.org/VT:ANR:DECPublicRecords/chlorinedioxideinman.pdf

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn't fail me, that's a 0.5% solution

If you're administering a 22.4% solution of MMS, that's almost 49X stronger than what was used in that study.

The point of that study was to demonstrate that chlorine dioxide was suitable for use for water purification. It was not evaluated for theraputic uses or chronic toxicity.

If you can't grasp the difference between a 0.5% solution and something 49 times stronger - make yourself a cup of coffee using instant coffee. One with 0.5 teaspoons of grounds and the other with 49. You might get the point.

And my apologies, that should be Mr. Hurst.

That'll teach me for starting typing without my glasses.

I realize that MMS is much stronger, which is what I was attempting to say. I have just seen lot's o' math on mms dosage compared amount in drinking water to the point that my brain is in tilt mode. :-) Slide over to that Autism Wars link and educate them. I believe the Bishop Kerri herself is over there. Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

Hello Mr. Hurst and a big thanks to you for pointing out to the AoA crowd that bleaching your children is never a good thing. Even if your keen sense of the obvious did shut down the thread. Pardon me for saying this but trying to teach those at autismwars anything regarding rudimentary chemistry, immunology, and biology is a perfect exercise in futility. It's best to watch the mental gymnastics competition from afar.

Administered 5 mg/L. If my math doesn’t fail me, that’s a 0.5% solution
Actually, math failed you by 3 orders of magnitude. That's a 0.0005% solution, 5 ppm.

To put these concentrations into relation, a single drop (0.3 ml) of MMS in a cup of water gives you about 400 mg/l concentration. 80 times higher than the safe level determined in the publication quoted by Hurst.

@Darwy,
"A kg of ibuprofen is lethal."
A kg (2 1/4 lb or thereabouts) of anything is lethal, if delivered to the head at significant velocities.

David N. Brown
Mesa, Arizona

With regards to Jim Humble's whinge:

This fund has been set up to fight the FDA and their attempts to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

it must be said that the FDA doesn't need to make criminals out of people involved with MMS.

From here we see that:

The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA), (42 U.S.C.A. §5106g), as amended by the Keeping Children and Families Safe Act of 2003, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:

- Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or

- An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.

Based on that legal definition people using MMS on their children pretty much meet the criteria for being criminals, their good intentions notwithstanding.

So... maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake I mean I'm more politically than biologically inclined but can someone point out to me where these 'autism causing worms' originate? Are they from the mothers during pregnancy? Are the mothers infested too and should we force feed them bleach drinks, baths and enemas? Are they in the air? Perhaps we should work something a bit more along the lines of prevention if so!!!!

Or perhaps... no... it couldnt be. THE ANTI-VAXERS WE'RE RIGHT!!! If vacines cause autism still its big pharma inserting these evil mind altering worms into the vacines so they can incubate in our children, and when they mature they assert control grouping up to head to a power station to feed on the electricity. Whereupon they will grow exponentially in size bursting out of the child! It'll be like a bad gozzila movie: 'Autzilla vs The Giant Pharma Worms!!!'

WE MUST STOP THEM!!!!

But yea lets have that please be nice to know what these worms are (like classification not just 'worms') and where they originate from. I mean if people are getting them flushing out their children with their 'stay at home' bleach kits then we must have had ample time to study them.

Fielding J Hurst:

Chlorine dioxide looks to dissipates with time in regular drinking water too which would seem to be an important factor compared to knocking back a fresh brew of ye old magic bleach.

I keep fish at home in a tank; if an aquarist doesn't have access to enough distilled or deionized water to fill the tank, an acceptable substitute is usually to fill it with tap water and wait 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate. Chlorine is rarely the only thing in there, of course, so you may need to various treatments for those. This is also something familiar to anybody who has a swimming pool; you don't just add chlorine once. You have to add more on a regular basis, because it doesn't stick around.

@Mu

You're absolutely right. Unit fail on my part, I calculated as 5 g/l and not 5 mg/l.

/headdesk

No more posting late at night for me!

Those out there who defend the use of mms or use it on your disabled child, why don't you show us who object to this practice how wrong we are? Why don't you give yourself an mms enema, then tell us all how great an experience it was?

With regards to the disagreement between lilady & ScienceMom on the one hand and Calli Arcade on the other as to whether parents subjecting their children to MMS really love them or not:

Without knowing the inner world of such parents, it is IMO a causality error to work back from action to motive: inferring "these parents do not love their children" from "these parents use MMS on their children" does not follow unless you can also show that they are insincere in their belief that MMS will help their children (rather than mistaken, which on the evidence we already know they are).

By way of analogy, anyone on this forum who has consistently used fossil-fuel-based transportation (whether personal or mass) for several years, including myself, has contributed materially to processes which we know have caused, are causing, and will continue to cause harm to the livelihood of others (e.g. climate changes exacerbating flooding in Pakistan or drought in Texas in the past, declining aquaculture productivity from ocean acidification, and loss of infrastructure from expected sea level rise). That said, it simply does not follow from this that all such people hate Pakistani farmers, Texas ranchers, or people who live on low-lying coastlines.

Bottom line: IMO Calli is correct in demurring on the notion that we can conclude these parents don't love their children, even though (as far as I can tell) all parties agree that they have engaged in criminally-actionable child abuse.

@ Composer 99: I never stated anything about the parental love angle...although I did comment that such *love*, that parents use an excuse to abuse their kids, is perverse and twisted. That type of *love* has caused parents to whup them into submission. That type of *love* blinds them to their children recoiling from another oral dose/another enema that causes cramping, puking and watery blood-filled bowel purges.

MMS *treatments* are actionable child abuse, committed by the very people who should be protective of their vulnerable children.

Todd Drezner at the Ho-Po has a blog up about MMS autism treatments. I have a post stuck in moderation there:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

Go and post there, so that this *treatment* receives all the attention it deserves and, so that we might be a force to prevent other parents from inflecting abuse on their children.

Mu @ June 13, 4:23 pm

A 0.3 ml drop is really big drop. About 0.06 ml is more realistic. This quantity of 28% sodium chlorite solution would be 70mg/l for a 250 ml glass of water (a moderately large glass). Still well above safe levels.

@ Mary L

Therein sadly lies the crux of it. I imagine this would not have gone as far as it has (then again considering how at times it seems like we're only just stopping nigh short of a death cult maybe I'm wrong) if it was the parents who were taking these treatments.

If an autistic child dies to it its a 'tragedy'. But of course the parents were acting in their 'best interest' and they would have 'suffered a terrible life themselves and inflicting misery on their family' if they had continued to live.

I'm sorry to say it would take mass deaths to make these people even take a second glance at it. Sadly far more likely, especially with MMS, is highly debilitating future effects that won't be blamed. Naturally because it didnt happen instantly. You know... vaccines cause the change INSTANTLY so it MUST be them!!! But poison the kids and they suffer thyroid problems a couple years later it can't possibly be the parents fault no impossible.

@lilady - I am very sorry - have only been taking lessons for a month, so nowhere near there. Surprised myself though - I started with the lesson book sold in the store where the local string genius gives lessons and hated it. My years of classical-style piano training made playing little ditties and starting one string in first position, then another, then another (and then violin tab? Wow - that really sends your brain for a loop when you've been looking at numbering as fingering and not half-step location on a string) - anyhow, digressing there - I really hate "lesson book" style training. I've picked up a few things now that are specific to bowing practice, scale practice, double-stop practice, and hope that the instructor will tell me what other books might be useful and assign me a page or so in each one every week. With chronic illness I was spending too much time in the house and hope that maybe violin lessons will be a great distraction, keep my mind active and give me a good motive to delegate house keeping to team exercises as a family instead of just my job.

LOVE the link... would love to be able to do that one day. Doubt I'll have the 20 years of patience it will take to get to that level though. Amazing, and absolutely beautiful!

I am sorry Narad - I listen to so much of it (while attempting to find anything else to pay attention to) that I might have misremembered, or even just lumped it all together in my head as "the terrible overlords who are set to profit from our annihilation, etc." since it seems like with Alex Jones the groups kind of comingle by the time it's all said and done.

On MMS orally - hubby did it as a "supplement" for around six weeks last year, I think. He got to a point, though, where instead of feeling progressively better he began feeling significantly worse and the enthusiasm waned. It was then shelved for "emergencies only."

Now it's "aronia juice."

I don't know why, but the existence of violin tablature had never occurred to me. I think the instructional device and its focus on ever more complicated but set pieces led to stagnation of my interest in the banjo. Then again, I never had much of a head for music theory. And nobody wants to be a one-trick pony at a hootenanny.

Now it’s “aronia juice.”

I'd enthusiastically sample the Lithuanian chokeberry wine.

@ Mrs. Woo: I'm glad that you enjoyed my link to Midori. She is an amazing musician and she has her own foundation, which funds programs to provide musicians to teach kids instrumental music in NYC schools:

http://www.midoriandfriends.org/

My mom played piano and my dad was a superb violinist and sometimes played a banjo and a mandolin. Dad probably also had "perfect pitch" and was able to play all the popular music, without purchasing sheet music. Needless to say, I never had their skills, but was self-taught to pick out some tunes on the piano.

Mr. Woo is fortunate that he stopped using MMS after a short period of time. Why not water down the bleach, before he has a *medical emergency*?

whether parents subjecting their children to MMS really love them or not:

I am willing to believe that the parents at Jonestown really loved their children even as they force-fed them the poisoned Kool-aid.

@lilady - I think because he read the entire "book" by Mr. er um, the Bishop and was completely content to believe that there are different "types" of things that might be "mislabeled" bleach by those who "didn't understand" the amazing secret shared by the magnanimous Mr. Humble.

I like the watering it down idea. I should probably do the same thing with the industrial strength hydrogen peroxide while I'm thinking of it (he is assured by alt-med sites that it is regularly added to milk to pasteurize it, and if they don't use that they use the much more dangerous formaldehyde). ~shakes head~

So glad to hear that she is sharing her passion (and hopefully inspiring) with a new generation. I grew up with music in a lot of forms (various instruments and vocal) and everyone on both sides of my family had at least two years of piano lessons, with a few of us having them most of our childhood. It has only been the last few years that I really noticed that "not everyone" can play piano. Most churches I have been to are lucky if they have one pianist in a congregation. I still keep up on my piano and am playing with and co-directing our small church's fledgling praise band. The most exciting thing is the oldest person in it (aside from ancient me) is only 18. So neat to have young talent and encourage them to do a bit more with it. :)

At herr doktor bimler - I think that the force feeding Kool-aid in Jonestown is in some ways more excusable - it can be argued many were in a situation that removed from them much of their conscious will AND they were willing to drink the Kool-aid themselves even though they knew it would kill them. I really doubt the parents using this protocol are following it to the same degree themselves. I could be wrong though.

@ James,
"can someone point out to me where these ‘autism causing worms’ originate?"

Parasitic worm infestations usually start with eggs or larvae ingested by a host. Historically, the major vectors were untreated drinking water and improperly prepared meat, but improved sanitation has long since minimized these risks. In a modern urban setting, the one vector left is human fecal matter. I understand this is particularly an issue for infants and young children, who can reinfect themselves repeatedly, and probably extends to anyone in the same household. Gee, and the "curebies" don't seem to be saying ANYTHING about this...

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

Maybe it's from attempts to treat their autistic children with fecal transplants?

It takes a lot to freak me out...these MMS testimonials did just that:

http://www.healthsalon.org/487/parasite-cure-tapeworm-roundworms-mms-cu…

Maybe the users at this site and the abusers who stick enemas into their kids, are sniffing MMS and they are hallucinating about the worms.

Or, maybe they are just insane.

From the site above:

editor’s note - please be aware that MMS did not fully cure this case of parasites.

And also to note - quite clearly she did NOT have parasites.
http://www.natmedtalk.com/album.php?albumid=58

The displayed material is typical of an intestinal/colon cast and conforms to no known intestinal parasite.

"They congregate to survive," when discussing parasite eggs and deciding those were the tumors that caused her hysterectomy. Ummm... I didn't know that parasite eggs had that kind of ability (i.e., to move on their own will and/or "know" where other eggs would be to find them and bunch up)?

I do know that chicken eggs aren't near that smart...

Dingo - this sounds like the "cancer is fungus" nonseense in that it requires pathologists to be clueless bafoons who can't recognize fungus or worms.

About the so-called intestinal parasites:
a few years ago I adopted a 6 month old cat (large kitten?) who became really ill and produced a great deal of poo. .Of course, I took him to a vet who put a small sample into her magickal poo-analysis machine - *et voila*- he had coccidia - no worms. Now, it took this woman a few minutes to determine his problem which was treated successfully with medication over about 3 weeks.

So why is this not applicable to *humans*? Parasites are visible and can be categorised which will then determine treatment. This is easy stuff, not rocket science.

Todd Drezner's blog on MMS treatment is still going strong:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

I've replied to Ann Dachel and now a second time to Julie Obradovic who posted again to "explain" how she knew nothing of the treatment, continues to support the Quackfest, and (yet) felt that the science blogger was a big meanie.

There are no comments in support of MMS, many comments that condemn MMS and the parents who *treat* their children with bleach. Some on the comments also discuss the incestuous relationship between Generation Rescue, Autism One and AoA and their continued support of disgraced doctors, their quack treatments, AoA's defamatory articles and other tactics.

@Mrs. Woo,
" I didn’t know that parasite eggs had that kind of ability (i.e., to move on their own will and/or “know” where other eggs would be to find them and bunch up)? "

Sounds like exageration, but not complete fantasy. Parasite eggs are likely to occur in large numbers and high concentrations. They can also "cling" to surfaces, living things and movable objects quite tenaciously. For that matter, there are parasites that are known to alter a host's behavior for the parasites' purposes. All of which, once again, simply shows that if parasitic worms ARE around, simply ridding a host of the mature parasites is NOT going to be anywhere near enough to get rid of them.

David N. Brown

Mesa, Arizona

The motility of the infective stages of intestinal parasites is interesting.

Tape worm shed segments known as "proglottids" which are motile. Often these can be seen wriggling out of your pet's bum and are themselves mistaken for a worm, but they are just a small segment (maybe 2x5mm).

Strongyloides infection is by way of "free-living" motile rhabditiform larvae, rather than eggs. These larvae can live freely in the environment and move around a lot.

Just because there is one treatment that sounds crazy doesn't suddenly make them all crazy. I happen to have a child with autism with whom the biomedical approach is doing wonders for. Do you have any idea what its like to have a child going through this? I think MMS has become the thing that people against biomedical have grabbed hold of and ran with. Biomedical is all about diet and nutrition, and not pumping chemical pharmaceuticals into our kids, something that the medical profession is not trained to help us in. No two children with autism are the same, so the key is keeping the knowledge flowing, and some trial and error, not snake oil. Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That's good health. You should be so lucky as to be as well looked after as some of these kids! Biomedical is not "quackery", these are expert medical doctors and scientists with years of experience in the field who created these protocols, and some children are recovering so well as to be taken off the autism spectrum all together! I would never give my child a bleach enema, who would? We obviously are trying to remove the toxins, not add more in. This topic is a feeding frenzy for the media, but truly, the bottom line is that we want to help our kids recover from physical issues associated with autism, to improve the quality of their lives, and its a low blow to blame parents for trying. Its such a shame its been blown out of proportion. Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people. MMS is tied to a religious group, does that mean that anyone who believes in God also believes in bleach enemas now too? Do you see how silly that sounds?

@Robyn:

Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure?

You might want to ask the family of Abubaqar Tariq Nadama about that. Nadama was an autistic child who was being chelated to "detox" him. Roy Kerry, the quack who administered the chelator, failed to add calcium to the IV, and Nadama's heart stopped and couldn't be restarted.
There is no good evidence that autism is caused by toxins. Doing the above can be harmful because it diverts resources away from things that can help, like certain forms of ABA.

Biomedical is not “quackery”, these are expert medical doctors and scientists with years of experience in the field who created these protocols, and some children are recovering so well as to be taken off the autism spectrum all together!

A lot of Biomedical is quackery, I'm afraid. The Geiers' Lupron Protocol, chelation and MMS are just three examples. As to children recovering, autism is developmental delay, not developmental stasis, and people who don't use biomedical also often see dramatic changes in their children. Some even come off the spectrum as well.

@ Robyn:

"Changing foods, detoxing, giving vitamins and supplements or oxygen is not harmful, how do you figure? That’s good health."

What "toxins" does your child have Robyn...that need to be removed? Which laboratory tests determined that your child was toxic? And, how did your child acquire these toxicities, Robyn?

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/08/sadly-it-was-only-matter-of-time…

You do not trust medical doctors to evaluate your child for nutritional status and you state that doctor pump pharmaceuticals into kids.

Which type of "practitioner" evaluated your child for nutritional status Robyn? How did your "practitioner" test your child for nutritional deficiencies and determine that your child needs a *special diet*.

Why does your child your need oxygen, Robyn? How are you administering the oxygen that your child needs...through nasal cannula, through an oxygen mask or by sessions in a hyperbolic oxygen chamber? Oh, and what theory/theorist do you rely on, for giving your child oxygen treatments?

"Autism One is not to blame here, they help many many people."

I read the list of speakers who appeared at the conference and I say they harm many more people, than they help:

http://www.autismone.org/Keynote-Addresses-Autismone-Conference-2012

Yes, the child who died of chelation was given the wrong thing, which is obviously a tragic mistake, but the pharmaceutical industry kills people daily due to adverse reactions to medications. I actually don't chelate because I believe it is an extreme measure reserved only for extreme cases of poisonings. Detox is not chelation necesssarily, you can detox your body from basic environmental toxins too, and it is a fact that we all walk around with them, there are many found in the umbilical cord blood of newborn babies, and for children with autism they don't have the proper metabolism to rid their bodies of these toxins. I challenge any of you to read The Autism Revolution by Martha Herbert M.D. from Harvard University, or visit the Autism Research Institute or AutismCanada.org and really do your research, and then we can talk. Oh and by the way, today a court ruled that a child in Italy was in fact damaged by the MMR vacccination which led to autism.

@robyn

Oh, and did you know that the court used the fraudulent research of mr. andrew wakefield in order to base its decision. A decision that has been criticized by most EU health organizations for using said fraudulent research in making the decision.

And why would a small court ruling outweigh numerous well-designed scientific studies with thousands of subjects that have shown no causation between the MMR vaccine and autism?

Martha Herbert has gone over to the dark side of woo and is now considered a quack. She's been written about on Orac's "friend's" blog, about what an embarassment she is to legitimate academic institutions. None of her crackpot theories have any scientific basis.

That website Autisim Research Institute is a biomed site promoting all kinds of quackery. And guess which lab they support? Doctor's Data. Big surprise.

Robyn: how do you know your child is full of toxins? And what toxins specifically? Please support your statement "it is a fact we all walk around with them (environmental toxins)".

Children are being helped by biomedical treatment. Period. I can see with my own eyes that it is helping my child, I have evidence in front of me. You go ahead and give your child 30 vaccinations, drink your flouridated and chlorinated (bleach?) water, eat your GMO's and junk food and pick up some pesticide laden fruit, but let the people who want to give their children a non toxic lifestyle do so in peace. I'm sorry I don't have more time to debate this, I'm busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!

@Robyn - please tell us that you aren't shoving bleach up your child's rectum.....

So a "non-toxic lifestyle" to people like Robyn includes, among other things, chemical castration, possibly deadly chelation and bleach treatments. Oh, let's not forget fecal transplants. Plus force-feedingtheir kids dozens of supplements, vitamins and other dubious nutritional therapy.

To be fair to Robyn, she did say she would never do MMS or chelation. But she supports those options for other parents, which is just as bad as if she did them herself.

And her comparison of a chelation death to the deaths caused by the pharmaceutical companies is, of course, all together now, one big strawman. So what? One thing has nothing to do with the other, Robyn!

Robyn,
I suspect your concept of "toxins" and the medical realities of toxins/toxicants are somewhat different. I also think your concept of what a "detox" is and can achieve is quite different to the reality. I suspect you are using these terms because they sound appropriately "sciency" and they sound plausible and they appeal to your inner need to explain what might be going on with your child.

As others have asked, what "toxins" excatly do you think you are dealing with in a "detox", and how exactly would this "detox" work over and above what the body already does quite naturally? And what "toxins" are in the umbilical cord?

Please don't get all shy about answering what should be quite simple questions, please, on the pretext that you have better things to do. That's just an admission that you don't really know the answers, and are afraid of confronting the reality that you don't really know what is going on.

@Robyn: You were the one who first came posting here with some pretty nebulous "treatments" for your child...based on your blanket statement about medical doctors inadequacies.

I merely asked you some simple questions about the *practitioners* you use, the diagnoses given to you by these *practitioners*, the tests that determined your child's nutritional deficits and the need to change your child's diet, the need to detoxify your child and the need to give your child oxygen treatments.

Why, are you leaving, clutching your pearls...in a huff.

Why won't you tell us what type tests were done on your child?

Do you rent your HBOT chamber or did you purchase it...because for some unfathomable reason you think your child needs oxygen therapy?

The case in Italy was decided several months ago and the "facts" concerning the onset of symptoms for that child are based on conflicting testimony about when the child received MMR vaccine (9 months of age or 15 months of age). The decision has been roundly criticized in science/legal communities in Europe and in the United States...because plaintiff's success was based on the fraudulent Wakefield study.

"I’m sorry I don’t have more time to debate this, I’m busy lovingly caring for, and healing my autistic child!"

Let me FTFY Sharon...

I've been asked some questions which I cannot answer because I would reveal myself as a phony, science-illiterate
parent...who is busy caring for my child whom I experiment
on.

Robyn, your first post @ June 21, 11:35 pm does not sound as if you’re at the extreme edge of the Biomed movement. You yourself stated you would not give your own child a bleach enema because you don’t want to add more toxins in.

You lament the negative attention MMS has gotten from outsiders. Would you consider this? If you – those of you who do use Biomed but think that MMS is a bad idea – would speak out against its use those of us outside your movement would not have to do it for you.

Speak out. As long as you don’t, and you maintain this “anything goes” philosophy, you lose credibility for everything you’re doing. If you’ll forgive the analogy: if you will not separate out the obvious chaff, why should we believe there’s even any wheat in there? Please think about it.

Robyn:

Yes, the child who died of chelation was given the wrong thing, which is obviously a tragic mistake, but the pharmaceutical industry kills people daily due to adverse reactions to medications.

The funny thing about that excuse was it was cooked up several weeks later. At that time what Kerry did, including which chelator to use, was being promoted by the bogus toxicology organization he and others (like Buttar) were in. They were promoting it for all kinds of ills, just like MMS is now.

And here is the killer bit about it all: Roy Kerry, who was an Ear, Nose and Throat doctor with absolutely no expertise in toxicology, pediatrics or autism, passed a course that took less than a day to because a DAN! doctor after the death of the little boy.

It is all part of the fractured, non-scientific thinking that is prevalent in the so-called biomed movement to cure autism.

I just want to state that I responded to all of the questions (and insults) above, and posted links to all of the information I spoke about, but have had my comment mysteriously erased. I am not afraid to defend myself, but this is not an open discussion of the facts, its a soap box for you all to badmouth biomedical. Have at it, if I can't have my say too then I won't be part of this. MMS is not even part of the DAN protocol, it happened to be spoken of at a conference which also had speakers talking about the traditional therapies. I don't defend it, I defend biomedical. Maybe you could all try listening instead of speaking some time.

Robyn,

If you'll search through the blog, you'll find that Orac is not in the habit of erasing posts he disagrees with. There have been posts go to moderation, which eventually get released - I don't know if this continues today with the new platform. It is possible, I suppose, that a glitch lost your post in which case I hope you'll try to recreate it.

Robyn, many posts with a lot of links get moderated and don't appear quickly. You could try posting links one at a time. At the very least, you could just give a pubmed id number that won't trigger moderation.
Regardless, you should really explain how/why you think your child can/should be recovered. My 19 year old autistic daughter would tell you to your face that she does not and would not to be made 'normal'. Think on that. What does that mean? Maybe you should not try and 'rescue/recover' your child. Try to accept them the way they are.

Robyn,
You might get more success if you focus on providing evidence and arguments in favor of a particular set of treatments rather than a vague umbrella term such as "biomedical".

I've used MMS. When sodium chlorite is acidified it turns into chlorine dioxide briefly before breaking down into sodium chloride--salt water. There is a two-hour window of effectiveness during which pathogens are selectively targets. Not all bacteria, like the devastation wreaked by antibiotics on one's immune system. 3 drops of MMS won't kill anyone. The first time I used it, there was a few seconds of nausea and during the night I got up 4 times to use the toilet. No diarrhea, just bowel cleansing. And overnight a condition that tormented me for over 40 years, caused by insect bites, disappeared. After that I gave it to two sick cats. Something was going around the neighborhood that was killing them slowly--respiratory infection, emaciation, pus from eyes and mouth and then death. These were abandoned, wild cats so I could only catch two of them. They were the only ones who recovered. And of course most diseases have a component of pathogenic infection, including autism with their infected bowels. Most diseases involve a toxic inner environment (toxemia) and this is a breeding ground for pathogenic organisms. Detoxifying is critically important to the healing process but so is dealing with pathogenic side effects. Killing pathogenic organisms isn't the end all of curing disease, but it's a better treatment than most of conventional medicine has to offer. I spent 21/2 years observing a naturopath cure cancer and about every other disease that was around in the early 80's--and realized then that what passes for conventional medicine is barbaric. MMS is mild stuff compared to radiation, chemo and surgery with it's tiny "success" rate. About 2.1% (optimistically speaking) http://truthquest2.com/chemotherapyStats.htm MMS is potent medicine for the pathogenic component of infection and disease, but it can't be patented so Big Pharma is having conniption fits and supporting this witch hunt..as usual in such situations.

I find it interesting you only provide a citation on your competitors, rather than your own medicine. Do you simply lack evidence, and have to rely on insulting others in the hopes you look better by comparison?

Are you getting your MMS for free, Dianne? No? Is someone making money off of it? So are they making a profit? Are you synthesizing this stuff in your basement?
As for 'curing', anecdote.....and as for 'curing' wild cats, there is a strong argument for letting these creatures die as they are not part of the natural ecosystem.
Try posting some proof and not just stories. And please, any naturopath that can cure cancer would not be hidden on some comments section of the internet, they would be on Oprah and Dr Phil being lauded.

@ Dianne

There is a two-hour window of effectiveness during which pathogens are selectively targets.

How can a chemical decides to selectively target "pathogens"?

There is no difference between many pathogen bacteria and our commensal bacteria. Actually, some of our commensal bacteria can turn pathogen (they are that we call opportunistic pathogens).

Also, as someone who had to use bleach to decontaminate hsi hands, I can tell you that sodium hypochlorite doesn't distinguish between my skin and the bacteria on it. It attacks both.

Addendum:

Some chemicals, like antibiotics, do indeed selectively target some types of bacteria, but that's because their mode of action is to bind to a specific protein of the bacteria. By example, penicilline-like antibiotics bind to the enzymes in charge of building the bacterium cell wall, and tetracyclines binds to ribosomes.

As far as I know, bleach is not selective. It's working by oxidizing anything in sight. Including your esophagus and intestines if your ingest it.

Thanks for the laughs Diane...you made my day. I found some additional *scientific* theories you have at the whale.to website:

http://www.whale.to/v/thompson.html

How's your MMS sales franchise doing...now that your *cure* has been shown to be industrial bleach.

More lunacy from Dianne Jacobs Thompson:

http://www.truthquest2.com/myStory.htm

A true woo salad.

And look: Dianne Jacobs Thompson supports baby murderers and defends that scumbag who shook his baby to death, Alan Yurko. She deserves MMS:

http://legaljustice4john.com/

SURE--vaccines don't cause autism. Sure--just ask any Big Pharma rep or pharma-financed study. But they did cause autism in monkeys put on an infant vaccine schedule--every one of them had some level of autism symptoms. http://vran.org/in-the-news/infant-monkeys-given-standard-doses-of-vacc… but of course that has no connection to human autism. If you believe that, I've got a real estate deal for you...sucker.

Your strategy reminds me of someone trying to deal with a burning building by pointing out that volcanoes are hotter. An interesting comparison, but utterly meaningless to the issue at hand.

Oh, goody, a person who thinks it is okay to shake babies using the old tired and worn out Pharma Shill Gambit.

Exactly how can you tell is a monkey has autism?

from your link:

"The full implications of this primate study await publication of the research in a scientific journal,"

That was 4 years ago. Where's the publication? Where's the data? You can't even read your own citation for detail...nowhere does it say that "every one of them had some level of autism symptoms."

Dianne,

You post an article on the monkey study from a quack anti-vaccine site. Would you take the time to read an opposing view? Are you willing/able to learn something?

http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.ca/2012/05/whacking-monkeys-in-name…

And Dianne, please read this as well, which was written by a good friend of our host here, Orac:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/monkey-business-in-autism…

In a nutshell, that study was bogus. AND it's over four years old. AND it tortured poor little monkeys. At least they didn't administer MMS enemas to the monkeys.

I guess I'd better finish my story, since only the beginning is there. Haven't got to the part where the naturopath cured my stomach cancer, ovarian cysts, low thyroid, chronic bronchitis, arthritis and heart condition in 5 weeks, and that was just the beginning.

Alan Yurko, whose premature, sickly baby died after receiving multiple vaccines, yeah--people all over the world supported him. Shaken baby--they know now the symptoms used to diagnose shaken baby aren't caused by shaking. That's why they had to change the name to "abusive head trauma" because the symptoms can be caused by severe head impact, but also by numerous medical conditions, including vaccines which are documented causes of brain swelling (inconsolable crying is a symptom) and hemorrhagic conditions like thrombocytopenia--those are your SBS diagnostic symptoms. Also, animal studies proved that vaccines cause elevated blood histamine levels, a hemorrhagic condition, and depleted vitamin c levels (it is required to neutralize blood histamines) which creates accelerated infantile scurvy--a hemorrhagic condition which also causes bone disease, many other symptoms and sudden death.

I'm a teacher and independent investigative researcher/writer. I started researching health issues after getting cured of life-threatening conditions by a naturopath in 1979 and the focus went to vaccine sequelae in 1986 after my only child was nearly killed by her first and only vaccine.
On SBS, no neck and cervical spinal injuries like those found in whiplash injury means no shaking, and they've never been found in these cases. The symptoms are caused by other means.
Bleeding in the brain: http://legaljustice4john.com/thrombocytopenia.htm
http://legaljustice4john.com/subduralhematoma.htm
http://legaljustice4john.com/subduralhematomaBarlows.htm

My story--vaccine injury: http://truthquest2.com/vaccination2.htm

If you want to know something about my work, read the article pubished by NEXUS magazine, distributed in many countries, in several languages: Seawater – A Safe Blood Plasma Substitute?
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&… It was chosen out of that issue to be published online, and can be found on several other websites. I do my homework instead of blowing off with ignorant, uneducated "personal opinions".

How vile, defending a child abuser and killer:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/07/the-vilest-antivaccine-lie…

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/yurko.htm

From a liar:

Alan Yurko, whose premature, sickly baby died after receiving multiple vaccines, yeah–people all over the world supported him.

So all those broken bones were from vaccines?

and as for ‘curing’ wild cats, there is a strong argument for letting these creatures die as they are not part of the natural ecosystem

Neither are you, I daresay.

the naturopath cured my stomach cancer, ovarian cysts, low thyroid, chronic bronchitis, arthritis and heart condition in 5 weeks, and that was just the beginning.

Oh wow, we've got a live one here.
I just read her 'vaccine injury' story...hoo boy. One for the ages.

What a horrid woman.....

"Dr. Dick"....giggity.

Seriously, what an appropriate name for a quack. Kind of like Gary "Null".

So all those broken bones were from vaccines?

No, those broken bones were from Yurko hitting the child, something he admits to doing (got that? He does not deny that he hit the child).

But oh, he would never resort to _shaking_ the baby. Oh no.

(As I have explained before, it's really dumb, because as a parent, I actually have a far more understanding for shaken baby issues - the response is not really that extreme, and I can understand the mental state that leads to it; that's why in parenting classes, we don't vilify the feelings that lead to the problem, but teach the proper way to deal with them. Shaken baby happens because of lack of education. Hitting a 2 month old happens because the person is a monster. Sorry, but "I didn't shake him, I only hit him" is NOT excusable, even if it is true (which I don't believe for a second about this creep))

Diane, how did you miss (bold for emphasis) "The abstracts presented at IMFAR..." in the link you provided? You are aware that conference abstracts do not represent peer-reviewed publications, I trust?

When the researchers publish the results of their completed studies in peer-reviewed journals, we'll talk.

Actually after reading your defense of John Yurko it's clear that any further discussion would be futile: you can't fix crazy.

"I’m a teacher and independent investigative researcher/writer"

I stopped reading right there. The bullshit got too deep to wade through, and I'm not wearing hip waders.

@dianne jacobs thompson

So, due to your support of a child murderer,. pretty much we can conclude that you are full of it.

At least your comments are good for the utter lulz, from all of the ignorance that that you spew.

@ Dianne

*study shows autism symptoms in monkey *

Is it the study where one of the two control monkeys (i.e. the non-vaccinated ones) had abnormal brain development, his brain shrinking instead of growing, and the "searchers' labeled it as "normal"?

* study shows vaccines deplete vitamine C *

Ah, you mean the study where rats had an apparent lowered concentration of vitamin C following vaccination, but got it back to normal the next day?
In a world and time where most baby formula are enriched in vitamins?

* symptoms of injuries which could also have been caused by vaccines*

You mean like the bruises on the baby's arms which really looked like adult fingers squeezed it far too strongly?

You are the one here enabling child harm. Go away.

Does anyone know if there has been an Alan Yurko type case in the UK recently? I have seen headlines hinting at something like this on the cover a particularly vile British magazine called Namaste (should be called Nasty) in Community Natural Foods in Calgary. There was something referring to child supposedly killed by the MMR vaccine and now in the most recent issue something about the child's innocent father being in prison or prosecuted. I went to their website, (namastepublishing.co.uk) but although I found a heap of crazy (a lot of anti-EU, anti-vax etc), I could not find anything about it before I reached my limit of batshittery. Have any of the Brits here heard anything about this?

@Militant Agnostic

Er... Hopefully another British person can help out more, as I'm inattentive to magazines like that, and so can't comment appropriately. The last high-profile child abuse case we've had - that I know of - was initially referred to as 'Baby P'. I do not know of any claim of vaccine injury on the part of the 'responsible' adults who were prosecuted, but do believe that such a claim would have led to substantial media coverage, because they had such fun with MMR before, and more recent pieces like the one highlighted at http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/sue-reid-on-mmr-in-the-daily-mail suggest they're not done yet.

The companies behind the Daily Mail and Metro (on the one hand) and the Express and Daily Star (on the other) seem to have been the worst for exaggerating perceived risks of vaccination while AJW was doing his thing originally, and dredging-up any source of doubt since. Neither of those companies appears to have a direct control over Namaste (as far as I can tell), but it is trying to appeal to a similar market.

Some interesting debate going on and questions being raised here - particularly between Calli, ScienceMom and Lillady.
My own feeling is that Calli was not in any way *defending* or giving a 'free pass' to parents who abuse their children in this way and I can't see how her comments were interpreted in this way.
As repugnant as their behaviour is, I believe most of these parents do love their children and sincerely believe that they are helping them. It is possible to love your child and still harm them grievously - the ability to love your child in itself says little about your worth as a parent.
I find myself agreeing with Calli - I don't think it's helpful or correct to think of AoA-type parents as evil, cold, unfeeling monsters.
(and as a pedantic side point, the issue was raised some years ago by Rhys Morgan not Rhys Martin!)

Ok, have spent some time over at Autismum's blog - starting to have a little more sympathy for the positions of Sciencemom and LilLady. There's some truly dangerous, repugnant people out there and I'm seriously hope Child Protective services are alerted to them.

Thanks Kath. I didn't think Callie was giving a free pass to biomeddler parents; I simply disagree that these parents truly love the child in front of them as opposed to being in love with the idea of the child they don't have but 'want back'. But yes, it's pretty scary isn't it? And I'm afraid that you may have only read a fraction of what these parents do to their children and sadly, are enabled and even encouraged by DAN! doctors and other 'healthcare providers'.

ScienceMom- terrifying. I'd read about this sort of thing, but to be confronted by actual, real life parents who seem to view their children as being possessed of some horrendous evil that needs purging; parents who are prepared to put their children at serious risk of psychological and physical harm to satisfy their healer fantasies and fit in with their ignorant, narrow view of the world...
Even though I had some knowledge of these practices, what's made the issue seem a lot more real is reading testimony from people who openly and proudly admit to administering their children with bleach solution & enemas; I was just horrified. I'd naively assumed that parents who do this are mostly vulnerable and desperate people who genuinely have no idea of the harm they are doing to their children.
I think you make an excellent point, and I would absolutely agree that these parents do not "truly love the child in front of them as opposed to being in love with the idea of the child they don’t have but ‘want back’"

Thanks, Kath. Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting it. Also, parents aren't the only ones who love someone without really knowing them, or loves who they wish the other person was. I've known a few abused spouses, and that sort of thing comes up. "I love you but you have to give up all of your friends, your family, and everything you've ever cared about or I won't believe you love me." It can get extremely twisted. That seems to be something society is comfortable admitting can happen; we seem to have a harder time accepting that it can also happen between a parent and a child, I think because we tend to glorify the parent/child relationship to dangerous extremes. Too many severely underprepared parents who are expecting love to work miracles and make it all fluffy toys and rainbows and not hard work. (Too many underprepared spouses not realizing that you have to work at a marriage too.)

Kath, Science Mom, Calli Arcale, lilady and others above, I believe we can all agree that Autism Mum and her family are awesome.

I am watching the garden transformation, which is being done to accommodate Pwdin and not to punish him. This is amazing. The only thing I can relate to that is similar is making sure the new couch did not have removable cushions that could be thrown around the room. Okay, I did have the one child who ate his older brother's art supplies, which is why the big brother's easel and paints were on the porch to keep little brother away (and it was big brother who had, and still has the semi-autistic developmental delays!).

I would never force any of those boys to consume MMS, nor force anything up their bums unless it was medically necessary (younger boy recently had a gastro bug that required a suppository to deal with the nausea so he could keep down fluids, but he is a normal college student so he could do that himself --- his job involves teaching small children to swim so he does pick up some odd bugs).

I just had a thought....

We glorify parenthood to dangerous extremes, and on places such as mothering-dot-com this is writ large. Parenthood, and especially motherhood, means you will be able to solve all problems in your child's life. If you cannot, you have failed as a parent. (And even in the mainstream, observe how often parents of behaviorally disturbed children are blamed for having screwed up as parents; parents are often presumed to have near godlike powers where their children are concerned.) Therefore, if you are unable to resolve your child's problem, in order to keep your "good parent" card, you not only need to have the problem not be your fault, you also need to be working hard to fix it. Of course, we all know that for some conditions (e.g. autism), this is essentially hopeless; the child will likely improve with age, but will always have that chronic condition. But they cannot accept that, because it means they've failed as parents, so they try ever more exotic attempts.

And here's what I just thought: perhaps these attempts escalate not merely out of desperation but because the magnitude of the heroism* required to overcome it. That is, if the therapy that fixes it is really really hard, then that just validates their difficulty in solving the problem earlier. It's not their fault they didn't fix the problem for the child earlier. It was a highly vexing problem that only extreme measures would resolve, but of course they were such good parents that they were willing to go that extra mile.....

Just a thought, anyway. My English degree tells me this is an excellent formula for a classical tragedy, with the parent as the tragic hero**.

*In the archaic sense of "heroic medicine", not actual heroism necessarily. Heroic medicine used to be very popular; the quality of an intervention was often judged largely by how extreme it was.

**Here, "hero" in the literary sense: protagonist. Heroes aren't always nice or noble, and tragic heroes are even less likely to, since the classical structure dictates that their downfall be their own fault. (The Greeks were very big on punishing hubris.)

Absolutely and well said, Chris.

@ Kath: Calli Arcale is one of my favorite posters here. Our posts back and forth led to a lively debate and exchange of opinions about what *motivates* these parents and what constitutes child abuse.

Meanwhile back at the Ho-Po Todd Drezner's blog about MMS has attracted a number of the RI Regulars...who have posted there to bring this abusive *treatment/cure* for autism to the attention of a wider audience...which is a good thing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/todd-drezner/autism-cure_b_1588498.html

Autismum, Science Mom and other science bloggers have exposed the dark underbelly of some of the abusive practices of the so-called *bio-medical treating parents*.

(Why do we have to have these in-depth discussions at 11 PM EDT? I've just finished preparing some goodies for tomorrow's July 4th celebration).

Talk amongst yourselves...I'm going to shower now...be back shortly to join the RI ladies. :-)

Thanks, Calli Arcale.

It is when I hear the complaints of the parents of autistic children that I find those transgressions were not with my older disabled child, but with my younger boy. My oldest son's terrible two's lasted two weeks, and he was very compliant. He colored in the lines, ate his dinner, and was easily potty trained.

It was the younger boy whose terrible two's lasted from eighteen months until he was seven years old. He ate art supplies, including biting the nibs off of markers (he had the most interesting diaper changes). He refused to become potty trained until he was almost five years old. He did have a language delay, but freaked out the neurologist at age three by putting together a puzzle too quickly.

Reading that, one would think he was some high functioning Asperger's. But no. He is annoyingly normal. With some speech/language therapy he was scoring normally before kindergarten. He was always a social butterfly, who was able to engage even the most shy child. He did marching band, has had girlfriends, was a high school honor student, and has lived on his own for a couple of years. He did not become one of the 50% who got accepted to the college of engineering (it is very competitive), but has redirected himself to becoming a teacher. Because that is what he has been doing for five years, including working with the special populations that include autism.

While his older brother still struggles. In short the child who drove me crazy when he was young is doing fine, the other one who was quiet and compliant is who I worry about.

This is why I view some of the stories of the misdeeds of autistic children a bit differently.

I'm sorry lilady, it may be when we find ourselves alone and undisturbed at our laptops this time in our various time zones. I recently put away dinner leftovers. But now I must go the the laptop that refuses the wifi to finish a very long letter about our oldest son's recent surgery for my family.

@ Chris: Just kidding...I know you are posting from the West Coast.

I visit and post on Autismum's blog frequently; she is a super mom to Pwdin and a gutsy blogger, as well. (Could we ever forget how she took on that awful creature "Patriot Nurse"?)

Best wishes to you and your family.

Calli Arcale

Parenthood, and especially motherhood, means you will be able to solve all problems in your child’s life. If you cannot, you have failed as a parent.

I thought the point of parenthood was to help the offspring achieve the best of their own abilities (including giving them the tools to solve their own problems). Whatever those abilities may be.

Am I off base here?

Actually I thought parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime.

Did I set the bar too low?

Because there were some close moments, like the seizures or the blue foot prints up the white carpeted stairs.

Oh, I forgot... making sure the main symptom of the genetic heart condition did not occur:

Sudden Cardiac Death

Chris @ 1:28 am 4 Jul in other time zones

parenthood was making sure the kid was alive at bedtime

Yeah, both were. But part of my point was I try to help themmake the decisions that will keep them alive until then.

Disclaimer: one kid fell off his bike so many times today, we need to find the right wrench to reposition the back brake on the bike before he flips over the handlebars, because he only has two speeds: full or stop. Then again, same kid chews out the neighbors kid when they take helmets off.

@ 1:29 am Happy to hear some good news!

and apologies for lack of preview and s/v agreement

Thanks. I am still writing about the surgery experience plus the aftermath. It is apparently not a simple thing to remove a thumb size chunk of interior heart muscle. That causes the body to go "Oooh, you hurt me! I will beat faster and cause more issues!", and then hopefully calm down where nine years of inactivity then can be addressed.

The probability of child waking up in the morning has increased.

Sometimes parents who had a child with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy only found out about the condition after trying to wake up a dead child in the morning. I spent almost nine years wondering if that would happen to us. While that probability still exists, it is much lower now. Kind of like getting a vaccine.

Chris,
you inspire me to try to be a better parent.

[blush] Thank you.

At California tomato plant, a food-safety measure turns unsafe for workers

egrossman — Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:22:01 +0000

At California tomato plant, a food-safety measure turns unsafe for workers

by Elizabeth Grossman

On Sunday August 21, a cleaning process designed to make tomatoes safe for customers eating marinara sauce, pizza topping, and canned tomatoes resulted in a release of chlorine dioxide gas that sent 43 workers at the Pacific Coast Producers plant in Woodland, California to area hospitals. According to Pacific Coast Producers vice president Mona Shulman, a malfunction of sanitizing equipment caused an "overdosing" of chlorine dioxide, causing the chemical to off-gas to the atmosphere. Chlorine dioxide gas was also drawn into a building through the ventilation system. "The building was immediately evacuated," said Shulman. The incident, which prompted the evacuation of about 300 people, was described by local authorities as a "mass casualty" and "hazardous materials release" event. Those affected had symptoms that included difficulty breathing, itchy throats, and water eyes. The next day, all but two of those treated at hospitals had been released back to work.

In response, the California Department of Occupational Safety and Health (Cal/OSHA) has issued an order prohibiting Pacific Coast Producers' use of the equipment involved until information can be provided showing it can be operated safely. "It's not common to issue such an order unless equipment poses an imminent danger," explained Cal/OSHA spokesperson Erika Monterroza. Cal/OSHA has also initiated what it calls a "multiple employer" investigation of the event, one that currently involves Pacific Coast Producers and RUSH Personnel, a California-based employment agency that hires workers for the Woodland plant. The sanitizing equipment that caused the chlorine dioxide release is "owned by a vendor," International Dioxcide, Inc., Shulman told me. "Our employees don't operate the injection system," she said.

A gas with explosive potential
International Dioxcide, Inc. is also known as DuPont Water Technologies, and is part of DuPont's chlorine dioxide division. (DuPont purchased the Rhode Island-based company in 2000. In 2006 International Dioxcide paid a fine levied by the US Environmental Protection Agency for selling and distributing pesticides - a disinfectant product - with outdated labels that lacked key safety information.) DuPont describes chlorine dioxide as "an ideal choice to meet the microbial and oxidative challenges of today's environmentally concerned world." A DuPont fact sheet notes that chlorine dioxide produces "no hazardous residues" and offers an efficient way to sanitize food processing equipment, water used in food processing, and produce itself. DuPont Public Affairs spokesperson Janet E. Smith replied to my questions about the process by email, noting that, "Chlorine dioxide disinfects by way of oxidation, whereas chlorine itself disinfects by way of chlorination. Chlorine dioxide is an ideal replacement for chlorine, providing the same benefits and more, while minimizing the potential concerns of chlorinated by-products." At Pacific Coast Producers, she explained, "chlorine dioxide is generated on-site using equipment and sodium chlorite supplied by International Dioxcide, as well as hydrochloric acid and bleach supplied by other companies."

While chlorine dioxide, a synthetic gas used widely to disinfect water (in both drinking water systems and food preparation), may minimize occurrence of chlorinated by-products, it has its own hazards. High levels of chlorine dioxide can be severely irritating to the nose, eyes, throat, and lungs. Acute exposure can cause pulmonary edema, headache, and vomiting, while ongoing exposure can lead to chronic bronchitis and emphysema. A very reactive compound, chlorine dioxide breaks down quickly in air and sunlight into oxygen and chlorine gas, and in water forms chlorite. The Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA) "Safety and Health Guidelines" for chlorine dioxide describe the compound as "a very unstable material even at room temperatures [that] will explode on impact, when exposed to sparks or sunlight, or when heated rapidly to degrees [100]C (212 degrees F). Airborne concentrations greater than 10 percent may explode." OHSA also notes that "Chlorine dioxide reacts with water or steam to form toxic and corrosive fumes of hydrochloric acid," and that it may cause fire or explosions if it comes into contact with hydrocarbons (i.e., petroleum products) or dust.

Not a one-time problem
Pacific Coast Producers has been using chlorine dioxide to sanitize tomatoes for a number of years, said Shulman. But this is not the first time the company has had trouble with chlorine dioxide gas. In 2007 equipment supplied by another vendor (not International Dioxcide, Shulman explained) also malfunctioned when a sensor failed after the system became clogged with organic matter. The continued pumping of chlorine dioxide and subsequent off-gassing caused 39 employees at the Woodland plant to experience severe respiratory symptoms. Thirty-five workers were hospitalized, two overnight who were treated for pulmonary edema and bronchial inflammation. The initial fine from OSHA was $47,805, but the negotiated settlement came to $21,000.

Pacific Coast Producers is a privately owned company. My request to read the company's 2010 annual report was denied, but Shulman told me that in the last fiscal year annual revenues were $499 million. About half that revenue is from tomato products, 85 to 95% of which are grown within fifteen miles of Woodland, California, the rest in northern California. The company's Woodland facility employs approximately 130 people full time and 800 to 1,000 seasonal workers. Company-wide, Pacific Coast Producers has about 600 permanent and 3,500 or so seasonal employees. The company makes a variety of canned tomato products that include whole, diced, and pureed tomatoes and sauces. "We are a grower owned agricultural cooperative, and are a private label supplier for most major retailers in the U.S.," wrote Shulman. "We do carry environmental insurance, and we observe all laws and regulations with respect to hazardous materials and waste, including safety training for employees." Shulman said the company was continuing work using an alternate sanitizing process.

Pacific Coast Producers is not the only company to have had problems with chlorine dioxide gas releases. According to OSHA inspection reports, in 2009 another vegetable processing operation, Earthbound Farm Holdings in San Juan Bautista, California also experienced a release of chlorine dioxide gas that affected 17 workers who were treated and released by local hospitals. Additional OSHA records over the past ten years show that chlorine dioxide is also widely used in the pulp and paper industry, water treatment, and in meat processing. While OSHA statistics record illness and injury rates, they do not indicate how many people were put at risk by chlorine dioxide accidents, whether workers at plants like Pacific Coast Producers or communities like those in Washington state affected in 2002 by a chlorine dioxide leak at Weyerhaeuser pulp plant. A report prepared for the Environmental Protection Agency in 2000 ranked chlorine dioxide as among the chemicals with the highest annual rates of accidents between 1994 and 1999.

Given the concerns about contaminated food, the frequency of such incidents, and the great number of people that can be affected by a single batch of tainted processed food, sanitizing food processing operations is absolutely necessary. But might there be a way to do so that does not involve substances so hazardous that they risk harming the health of those working to keep our food safe?

Elizabeth Grossman is the author of Chasing Molecules: Poisonous Products, Human Health, and the Promise of Green Chemistry, High Tech Trash: Digital Devices, Hidden Toxics, and Human Health, and other books. Her work has appeared in a variety of publications including Scientific American, Salon, The Washington Post, The Nation, Mother Jones, Grist, and the Huffington Post. Chasing Molecules was chosen by Booklist as one of the Top 10 Science & Technology Books of 2009 and won a 2010 Gold Nautilus Award for investigative journalism.

egrossman Tue, 08/30/2011 - 04:22

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The OSHA training requirements (available at http://www.oshatraining.com)do require the employees be trained in the hazards of chemicals used in the workplace. They must also be provided with safety gear (such as respirators) if hazards are present that affect the workers. But the untimate solution is to use a safer product, or engineer a ventilation system or work process to protect the workers.

In other news, a substance used to aid in surface cleaning and cooling at food plants up and down the country was found to be a key factor in a number of employee drowning incidents.

Yes, water. There are many substances used in industrial processing in higher quantities and/or concentrations than are available to the general public. Part of designing and operating an industrial scale operation is to address the safety issues around these substances.

Hardly anything is intrinsically 'safe', you just have to use it as safely as possible.