conspiracy theory https://scienceblogs.com/ en Another antivaccine conspiracy theory, flu vaccine edition https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/09/15/another-antivaccine-conspiracy-theory-flu-vaccine-edition <span>Another antivaccine conspiracy theory, flu vaccine edition</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's Friday, and it's been a rough week. So, after digging into an epidemiology study yesterday, I'm in the mood for something a bit less...heavy. Antivaxers sometimes call me to task when I point out what to me is a simple fact, namely that antivaxers are basically conspiracy theorists. In essence, to believe many antivax views, you have to believe that there is a vast conspiracy among big pharma, the government, and the media to hide great harm from vaccines because...well, it's never quite clear. To protect pharma profits? Really, this is no different than the cancer quacks who claim that a cure for cancer is being suppressed in order to protect big pharma's profits. Rarely do the purveyors of such conspiracy theories consider that employees of pharma are human too. How many of them would be able to stay silent and keep up the conspiracy if one of their family members had a cancer that could be cured by one of these "suppressed cures," particularly high ranking executives who are presumably in on the conspiracy? It's the same with vaccines. How many "in the know" would stay silent if vaccines really were causing so much damage to so many children and one or more of their children or grandchildren happened to be affected?</p> <!--more--><p>I mention the conspiratorial mindset of the antivaccine movement because I was pointed to a beautiful example of it. It comes from—who else?—Levi Quackenboss, the pseudonymous antivaccine blogger whom we've encountered before, <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/06/08/antivaccine-activists-gleefully-attack-and-dox-a-12-year-old-boy-who-made-a-pro-vaccine-video/">doxing</a> and <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/06/10/a-particularly-odious-antivaccine-warrior-doubles-down-on-her-attacks-on-a-12-year-old-boy-who-made-a-pro-vaccine-video/">attacking</a> a <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/06/14/ya-burnt-12-year-old-marco-arturo-responds-to-attacks-by-antivaccine-bloggers/">12-year-old Mexican boy</a> who posted a pro-vaccine video and gloating about the <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/11/02/donald-trump-and-disgraced-antivaccine-scientist-andrew-wakefield-best-buds-forever/">meeting between then-candidate Donald Trump and Andrew Wakefield</a> during the campaign in August and, after Trump's victory in November, <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/11/11/antivaxers-want-trump-to-satisfy-their-demands/">reiterating antivaxer demands to Trump</a>. This time around, she <a href="https://leviquackenboss.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/why-is-the-media-attacking-the-flu-vaccine/" rel="nofollow">sees conspiracies everywhere</a>. I did briefly wonder if this was some misguided attempt at satire, but, no, it looks as though Quackenboss is serious.</p> <p>Basically, Quackenboss has made two observations. First, she thinks there's a conspiracy involving the media to spike or minimize stories in which vaccines fail or are suspected of causing harm. Indeed, get a load of how her <a href="https://leviquackenboss.wordpress.com/2017/09/14/why-is-the-media-attacking-the-flu-vaccine/" rel="nofollow">post starts</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> We all know by now that our “free press” has deeply embedded editors and producers who take their marching orders directly from pharmaceutical companies and the CDC. Their job is to postpone, water down, spin, or kill stories that hurt public health profits.</p> <p>Whenever you see a vaccine article that strikes you as negative– or hell, even fair and balanced– it’s a red flag that big wheels are in motion behind the scenes; you just don’t know what the outcome is going to be yet. </p></blockquote> <p>Got that? Basically, to Quackanboss any story that tries to be balanced or nuanced in any way (unless it's a pro-vaccine story that is "balanced" by including antivaccine viewpoints) and that doesn't paint a completely negative picture of vaccine safety and effectiveness is proof that the big pharma conspiracy theory is suppressing, spinning, or otherwise downplaying the unacceptable news.</p> <p>Then she mentions two examples of stories that seem to undermine her very thesis, except that they don't, because she uses them to head down the antivaccine conspiracy rabbit hole. The stories involve the meningitis B vaccine. <a href="https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/college-game-plan/after-daughters-deaths-moms-urge-parents-consider-meningitis-b-vaccine-n793431">One was about two young women who were vaccinated</a> against meningitis but contracted the disease and died anyway. One girl, Emily Stillman, contracted serotype B meningitis despite having been vaccinated against meningitis because there was not yet a vaccine against serotype B approved in the US. The vaccine required by most colleges only covers serotypes , C, W and Y, and B is a much less common serotype. Meningitis B vaccination is a "permissive" recommendation (doctors are free to recommend it and patients to take it, but it is not generally recommended for everyone, although those at higher risk should receive it) because of how uncommon the serotype is. Quackenboss basically marveled that the press would publish such an article.</p> <p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/business/meningitis-b-vaccines.html">The second story</a> is about skepticism over whether the meningitis B vaccine is being promoted unnecessarily. It's a reasonably balanced article that clearly puzzled Quackenboss mightily. Actually, the article didn't puzzle her. The fact that the article was published did:</p> <blockquote><p> Then on September 7th the New York Times, of all newspapers, <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/business/meningitis-b-vaccines.html">wrote about men b outbreaks</a>, describing them as “small” and “extremely rare,” and said men b vaccines are “lucrative” and “pricey” and “playing to parents’ fears.” They pointed out that making vaccines for less rare diseases has the potential to make the vaccine industry into a “cash cow” and they didn’t mean it in a good way. Mmmm-hmmm. I mean duh, but still. Not what you’d expect them to say.</p> <p>The Times even included a quote from a professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. The risk, he said, “is not a large enough problem to warrant routine vaccination.”</p> <p>So why are Pfizer’s and GSK’s men b vaccines on the media chopping block? I don’t know, but we’re not reading investigative vaccine journalism on NBC and in the Times. Keep your eyes peeled for the Godsent explanation the overlords will provide us with. They don’t usually announce the problem more than 30 days before announcing the solution, so it should be any day now. </p></blockquote> <p>So, basically, Quackenboss sees some deeper, darker strategy by pharma in "allowing" these two articles on meningitis B vaccines to be published and expects that the pharma strategy behind permitting them will become apparent soon. I can hardly wait to hear from Quackenboss what that nefarious scheme is whenever Quackenboss finally figures it out. I'm sure it will be epically hilarious.</p> <p>Quackenboss then moves on to the flu vaccine, noting a couple of stories about studies questioning the effectiveness of the flu vaccine in certain circumstances. Then, of course, the story earlier this week about a certain study finding a potentially increased risk of miscarriage associated with having received the H1N1 vaccine the year before and the seasonal flu vaccine within 28 days of miscarriage caught Quackenboss' attention. (It's the same <a href="http://respectfulinsolence.com/2017/09/14/does-the-flu-vaccine-cause-miscarriages/">study I deconstructed yesterday</a> in detail, showing how it didn't really show what antivaxers were touting it to show, something the authors themselves pointed out.) She's practically giddy, the way JFK conspiracy theorists are giddy when they discover some new new anomaly noted in a blurry black and white photograph of the grassy knoll around the time Kennedy's motorcade drove by:</p> <blockquote><p> Then! On September 13th the Washington Post wrote about a new study that linked the flu vaccine to a 7.7x increased chance or a 670% increase in miscarriages. I know that one of my favorite bloggers has written an incredibly researched piece about WaPo’s bullshit spin of 7.7x being just a “hint” of increased fetal death, but I’m seeing this a little differently. </p></blockquote> <p>Of course, that's not what the study found. It was a a case control study, and what that study found is that women who suffered a miscarriage were 7.7 times more likely to have received the flu vaccine within 28 days and to have been vaccinated against H1N1 the year before. The magnitude of the increased risk can't really be inferred that way. But, hey, who expects an antivaxer to understand the difference between a case control study and a cohort study.</p> <p>Quackenboss is just getting warmed up, though:</p> <blockquote><p> If protecting the flu vaccine was WaPo’s goal, I don’t think the press would even bother with the spin when they could just ignore the study completely, a la William Thompson. So the fact that this finding– in a study I can’t believe was conducted by the CDC’s Frank Mothereffing DeStefano and published in the journal <em>Vaccine</em>— is getting mainstream coverage is spelling death for the annual flu vaccine as we currently know it. </p></blockquote> <p>Yes, this one study, which resulted in a questionable finding linking the flu vaccine with miscarriage is going to "spell death for the annual flu vaccine as we currently know it." I don't think so, but Quackenboss does. Even more amusing, she thinks she knows why:</p> <blockquote><p> I might have the answer: the universal flu vaccine is about to arrive.</p> <p>The universal flu vaccine is supposed to offer long lasting broad protection against the constantly-mutating flu. You know, since most of America doesn’t want the good-for-nothing annual vaccine anyway, it doesn’t work in the elderly, and it’s killing the babies of women who get it while pregnant.</p> <p>Four years ago an FDA scientist was in a Congressional committee hearing and he testified that a “<a href="http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2013/02/fda-expert-universal-flu-vaccine-still-5-10-years">universal flu vaccine was 5 to 10 years away</a>.” I think that day is here. </p></blockquote> <p>That's right. According to Quackenboss' conspiracy theory, big pharma and its lackeys in the media are letting the "truth" about the current annual seasonal flu vaccine out, the better to pave the way for the new, universal flu vaccine! Its approval by the FDA and its marketing must be imminent! Otherwise, why on earth would big pharma allow so many negative stories about the flu vaccine? She seems blissfully aware with the holes in her conspiracy theory. For example:</p> <blockquote><p> A quick scan of Google News tells me that BiondVax, an Israeli company working on a universal flu vaccine, just voluntarily de-listed from the Tel Aviv stock exchange two weeks ago. The reason given is that the universal flu vaccine needs an international presence, so forget about little ol’ Tel Aviv; they’re sticking with the big boys at NASDAQ. Just three months ago BiondVax got an exciting $23.8 million investment as they enter phase 3 trials for their universal flu vaccine, so things are heating up.</p> <p>But get this! The new universal flu vaccine isn’t just a replacement for the annual shot. They’re also seeking approval as a flu shot “primer.” This shit is endless! So depending on what they get approval for, your elderly parents might get a primer universal vaccine and then get the season’s regular flu vaccine, but women of child bearing age will be told to get the stand-alone universal flu shot before they get pregnant. But that’s just my guess. </p></blockquote> <p>It's true. BiondVax is taking a two-pronged approach: Testing its vaccine as a single universal flu vaccine but also testing it as a "primer" to be used with the annual seasonal flu vaccine. That latter approach makes me think that big pharma as portrayed by Quackenboss isn't that smart if it's trashing the seasonal flu vaccine. After all, if its approach using its universal flu vaccine as a primary flu vaccine fails but its combining its universal vaccine as a primer to boost the efficacy of the annual flu vaccine it sure wouldn't make much sense to "allow" pharma's lackeys in the press to start publishing articles about studies like the miscarriage study.</p> <p>But, then, whoever said antivaxers were consistent in their conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists are rarely consistent, and Quackenboss is a conspiracy theorist.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Fri, 09/15/2017 - 01:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine-nonsense" hreflang="en">Antivaccine nonsense</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine" hreflang="en">antivaccine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/conspiracy-theory" hreflang="en">conspiracy theory</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/influenza" hreflang="en">influenza</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/levi-quackenboss" hreflang="en">Levi Quackenboss</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365615" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505455222"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Obviously, there is a severe level of delusion there.</p> <p>It must be a very sick, sad little world that she inhabits.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365615&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fwhhQ9vtLPD6y4D7EGuedyI4t8SiQkNj3nDuzQK5254"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365615">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365616" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505456964"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think this woman was at the Neighborhood Block Party on Labor Day--disguised as an old hippie guy! I had to leave. I survived through the cancer and vax conspiracies, but lost it with “aliens made the pyramids”. When I told him that I had a degree in anthropology, the response was that “universities only teach you what they want you to know”.</p> <p>It ticks me off when people imply that tolerance is the answer to this bullshit. I am trying to be “normal” by attending these gatherings, but there has got to be a limit. I’m also tired of the “pot is a harmless weed and it’s so good its going legal” meme that seems to go along with a lot of this. Yet, when I point out that the evidence is simply not in on safety/medical potential, I am the one who gets howled at.</p> <p>Nope, no more parties.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365616&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kB3VcSz8U1k-oUhOZaw3ZCLC2ANnQeevIbLvSRSClXw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darwinslapdog (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365616">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365617" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505457680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think Princeton University learned its lesson a few years ago when it had an outbreak of meningitis B in the student population. They now ask for everyone to get that vaccine. At the time, they even went to the trouble of getting an IND waiver so they could begin vaccinating everyone before the FDA had approved the vaccine.</p> <p>That's the kind of behavior that I appreciate (disclaimer: my daughter is a student there).</p> <p>The risk may be small, but the consequences can be severe if the organism becomes established in a large population living in a confined area.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365617&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g-wyY6gE-MZI48NAKu-9F7LEzQxEZWf-IWfqnqXvw74"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Finfer, MD (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365617">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365618" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505457906"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Anything but admit that maybe issues with vaccine aren't hidden, just rare.</p> <p>After all, if she did admit that, her whole belief system would have to be rejected.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365618&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bFda0hV5MIVprRh9Yjc6RSl9gjQ0osqqsDW--HoMI-Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dorit Reiss (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365618">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365619" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505458034"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Perhaps Quackenboss will start to question why all the big pharma/big medicine powers that be even allow anti-vaxxers to live rather than send ninja hit squads after them. It couldn't possibly be because there are no ninja hit squads, so there must be some insanely convoluted explanation as to why they are allowed to say what they say.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365619&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rNm3XEB9w4E3BZNUbM041ZvwIeTdsJQ28P0vEAatqDc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365619">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365620" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505458793"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's the same story with all these conspiracy folks...</p> <p>For the anti-vaxxers "Big Pharma" controls the media, the government (every government!), everything.</p> <p>For the anti-modern ag folks, Monsanto controls those things.</p> <p>For the anti-semitic folks, Jews control all those things.</p> <p>For David Icke, reptilians control all those things.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365620&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-JBy_TrvhfR-k2cDENU2Ly_ZgEl0fyMoqUKlyjgwiHE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365620">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365621" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505459711"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, this ought to send the Quack off the deep end (<a href="http://www.bbc.com/news/health-41269196">http://www.bbc.com/news/health-41269196</a>): </p> <p><i><b>Every childhood vaccine may go into a single jab</b></i></p> <p>A technology that could eventually see every childhood vaccine delivered in a single injection has been developed by US researchers.</p> <p>Their one-shot solution stores the vaccine in microscopic capsules that release the initial dose and then boosters at specific times.</p> <p>The approach has been shown to work in mouse studies, described in the journal Science.</p> <p>The researchers say the technology could help patients around the world.</p> <p>...Heheheh. Stuff that under your tinfoil hat, Quackenboss.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365621&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Wrv_HSvOqDLA5DKtfuCKXx3SwqjAzYd9wTOHYaoub8s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365621">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1365624" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505460972"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What amazing timing...</p> <p>I wish I had seen that when I was writing this post. I might have to add a snarky comment about it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365624&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5pkGh_VtRbof3l6VEBPwz-Ktd7L73HTSDLjQV7MF89U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365624">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1365621#comment-1365621" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365622" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505460081"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Chris Hickie<br /> I can hear the antivax-people scream "nanoparticles" if they read about microscopic capsules.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365622&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pJNGdOatzAZQtJ2z6SnzGntXZBhiRb7DOSFlVX740oM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Renate (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365622">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365623" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505460252"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Huh. I didn't realize, Dr Finfer, that you were that local to me! I pass Edison several days a week when I go into the office to work.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365623&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eExDzY180B9jzliKuiiK8vu0hw0b9dcS6gJX6i2om4g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365623">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365625" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505467896"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If that actually comes to fruition, a person could receive but a single injection in the lifetime, with built in boosters which are released at proscribed intervals during their life......</p> <p>Anti-vax heads would explode all over the world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365625&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6KDgV2PQAwsI3ceJuH54X-rjhWPxC0s-1PamcbupqG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365625">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365626" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505468876"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are times when I wonder how the Quackenboss, and people like her, can function in society on a daily basis. Seeing links of conspiracy everywhere must surely interfere with everyday life.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365626&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="idYGHjSd6idWyTLlugzTsOO5WtbiGWPGT75PD-LHqYI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Allison Hagood (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365626">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365627" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505469626"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What I find interesting is that all pharma is lumped into on giant vat of conspiracy. When in the real world, companies take shots at other companies to try to decrease their profit to increase their own. </p> <p>A good non-pharma example of this are ads that compare ford and chevy pickups. Each company disses the other's product.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365627&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dlXSitqni76dC7bCbtRXmqhi029zw7qhkHrvZDCN4NI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365627">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365628" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505473580"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A little PR for the CDC:</p> <p>Join CDC and NFID’s Flu Thunderclap<br /> September 28, 2017 marks the annual kickoff of the flu vaccination awareness campaign, emphasizing the importance of annual flu vaccination for everyone 6 months of age and older. Join CDC and NFID’s Thunderclap to help spread the word that flu season is around the corner, which means it’s time to get your annual flu vaccine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365628&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Kwv4n7zNqzNr1Q2UF0-FjcxtqvhQZESQlOkVnt73Xqg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365628">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365629" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505479574"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If influenza vaccinations were part of some grand conspiracy by pharmaceutical companies to harm/reduce the population, then why would it be mandatory for all healthcare workers including doctors and nurses who prescribe and administer their products to receive one? This wouldn't be consistent with a grand conspiracy now would it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365629&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="61YHkAoNcPagcBo4nLj0PDAzHBHvfEFkF0EK3sFe5OI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Internal Medicine Resident">Internal Medic… (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365629">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365630" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505480760"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Internal Medicine Resident -- are you familiar with the term "useful dupe"? </p> <p>“…few people realize that even the ideal influenza vaccine, matched perfectly to circulating strains of wild influenza and capable of stopping all influenza viruses, can only deal with a small part of the ‘flu’ problem…Every year, hundreds of thousands of respiratory specimens are tested across the US. Of those tested, on average 16% are found to be influenza positive..." Doshi P. Influenze: Marketing Vaccine by Marketing Disease. BMJ 2013;346:f3037</p> <p>In other words, the medical industry is almost as clueless today about what causes "flu" as they were back in 1918, when they were peddling those vaccines against a flu bacteria--all fully backed by the latest psyentific research, of course. See Eyler J. The State of Science, Microbiology, and Vaccines Circa 1918. Public Health Rep. 2010; 125(Suppl 3): 27-36.</p> <p>But hey, we all know conspiracies don't happen--especially conspiracies to keep the population sick, weak and obedient consumers. Repeating the word "conspiracy" 14 times disparagingly in a blog post proves it!</p> <p>"Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible." -- Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society (1952)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365630&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zq1R9TuZsMt2asiYSpfOCMs3NTvYQpKN_WmaAGglcLo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365630">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365631" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505481459"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter</p> <p>The burden of proof is on the one asserting the legitimacy of a "conspiracy theory." Those who promulgate the theories often don't comprehend the vast magnitude of the theory which essentially reduces the probability of said theory being accurate (of course this doesn't prove that it's a mere theory). Often there are simple explanations for why these theories are simply not true. The medical industry has not escaped from being targeted by proponents of these implausible theories. It's quite unfortunate to witness patients suffering from poor decisions which were influenced by these inaccuracies. This is why I am quite passionate about the issue of vaccinations and primary prevention of disease.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365631&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fvbyZ0QY1M_pk0raOD6U2SuKLmoY5eN-Ie6zLFuNx7k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Internal Medicine Resident">Internal Medic… (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365631">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365632" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505481652"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Now wait just a minute...</p> <p>NWOR is saying that the flu shot doesn't protect against diseases that aren't the flu. </p> <p>Can this possibly be true? Is Ginny revealing here for the first time anywhere that if I get a flu shot, that I can still get sick from some other unrelated infection? </p> <p>My goodness, if this is true, it will shake big pharma to the core, and the entire house of cards that is the vaccine industry will come crashing DOWN!!!!!11!</p> <p>or something</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365632&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HttuI1EFBnsdbbXILEk_mR2f3dqn4VNjxUSOdXNHi88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365632">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365633" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505482301"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Internal Medicine Resident is "quite passionate about the issue of vaccinations," yet totally ignores the evidence presented that flu vaccines do not protect against 84% of all illnesses that receive an eyeball diagnosis of "flu." How many people who are not sick at all also test positive for an influenza virus? How many people with "flu" also test positive for the bacteria believed in 1918 to cause flu? </p> <p>Of course @Johnny prefers not to contemplate these issues either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365633&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lSpOUgG-dn4-Zg2eXbTv1HPFDrnGYXQk8z6upa40Noc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365633">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365634" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505482771"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Internal Medicine Resident -- if you are really interested in whether proof of a conspiracy to keep the population sick, weak and obedient exists, don't expect it to be offered up in the comment section of a blog. You'd best be prepared to do a lot of independent reading. Maybe start with the book Rockefeller Medicine Men.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365634&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qUin60TAXl7GqSBy_eNp0B8xIAeJBUAOOvLnD884Eq4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365634">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365635" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505483318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah yes the Gish Gallop technique so often used by science denialists.....Shifting the burden of proof is also a common logical fallacy. Moreover using data from almost 100 years ago is probably not relevant to the present (estimated efficacy now is around 48-50%). Something that reduces my probability of contracting a disease by 50% is certainly reasonable. And one more thing, the argument that an intervention is not 100% effective is not enough to conclude that an intervention has no effect or is harmful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365635&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BrLsta5vxOi_n3Qb5Pg83CkpSnXorxUzCJ34wyHfMxo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Internal Medicine Resident">Internal Medic… (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365635">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365636" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505483622"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Reporter</p> <p>There is a nice reference book called Diseases of Man. Find a copy and see how many diseases are described as having flu like symptoms. You will be surprised by the number.</p> <p>As Johnny stated: flu vaccine will not protect you from other viruses that have flu like symptoms. </p> <p>And yes we all know here that the flu vaccine is not as effective as we would want but it protects better than no vaccine.</p> <p>So saying throwing a number out, 84% I think you said, that pass the eyeball test for the flu is unsupportable.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365636&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gKOUrVYjV0Pjb4A8GPMr8Fr4YTCPTbBgmbHbR7242fg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365636">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365637" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505483754"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter #19:</p> <blockquote><p>flu vaccines do not protect against 84% of all illnesses that receive an eyeball diagnosis of “flu.”</p></blockquote> <p>Given that most illnesses that "receive an eyeball diagnosis of flu" are not flu, why is this even surprising? Or even an attack on flu vaccination.<br /> The fact that you think this is a valid criticism speaks volumes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365637&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mfsBQYlMfkB28NIFMj3WZx-l0euMZ6p6jbWG1stHZvY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365637">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365638" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505484032"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Internal Medicine Resident -- I love science. It is psyence I don't like. I don't "deny" either. "Science denialist" is doublespeak. </p> <p>“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” Dr. Marcia Angell, NY Review of Books, Jan. 15, 2009.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365638&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yYbL-j1S2LbgaFy5KNUYAV4h_boe-11KT5V8g9RMpso"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365638">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365639" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505484850"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO here is a list of diseases that least begin with flu like symptoms (from Wikipedia)</p> <p>Anthrax, Brucellosis, Cat scratch fever, Legionellosis, Leptospirosis, Listeriosis, Lyme disease<br /> Lymphogranuloma venereum, Mastitis, Salmonellosis<br /> Toxic Shock Syndrome, Syphilis, Tuberculosis<br /> Scrub typhus, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever</p> <p>Viral[edit]<br /> Bornholm disease (Coxsackie B virus), Chickenpox<br /> Cytomegalovirus, Eastern equine encephalitis virus<br /> California encephalitis virus, Enteroviruses, Hendra virus<br /> Hepatitis A, B, C, D, E, Herpes, HIV-1, -2<br /> Newcastle disease, Human parainfluenza viruses<br /> Human rhinovirus, Measles, MERS coronavirus<br /> Human respiratory syncytial virus, Rubella<br /> SARS coronavirus, Slapped cheek syndrome, Smallpox<br /> Togaviridae, Venezuelan equine encephalitis</p> <p>Fungal[edit]<br /> Blastomycosis, Coccidioidomycosis, Histoplasmosis<br /> Stachybotrys chartarum</p> <p>Protozoan[edit]<br /> Babesiosis, Leishmaniasis, Malaria<br /> Toxoplasmosis</p> <p>One that I know was left on this list is hanta virus.</p> <p>It is a nice long list isn't it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365639&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g2fJR8oqMW4sF4fqV_9naSSZv0duThr4ECJ4HvniEfM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365639">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365640" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505484930"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, the resident conspiracy theorist recognizes that things that look like the Flu, aren't the Flu?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365640&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OTOGP6rmK0LAXH1SRqdJI-2lb3Q1tsmy85dDekt4aPM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365640">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365641" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505485603"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Call them conspiracy fantasists. Theory has a precise and valuable definition which is inaccurately used to describe them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365641&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pWmexqHRMg-fs0Ze5n6blJi-2mYM1nkbqQ-GLN9Cdc8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rs (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365641">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365642" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505486361"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>are you familiar with the term “useful dupe”?</p></blockquote> <p>You mean like an antivaccine conspiracy crank who also includes the Moon landing and <b>gravity</b> in her repertoire?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365642&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7VW1_Gne6fMmxT4H0oQizawrnmFyrhnUWx5EG2zCCn8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365642">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365643" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505487708"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@rs (#27)</p> <p>Excellent point!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365643&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hH8-GogDjKUyrM8a5nK0Z5MvvpcCIxDF6Zx0bhZGVBs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Internal Medicine Resident">Internal Medic… (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365643">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365644" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505488658"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.” -- Edward Bernays, Propaganda (1928), Chapter One.</p> <p>And Bernays should know--he was one their most useful minions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365644&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RGnRCmLkY4sYc8mPsYxdZXyiG-cUomj3qut2BxoBnuE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365644">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365645" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505491558"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWOrthless poster mistakenly thinks Internal Medicine Resident will somehow fall for his/her moronic arguments, which is good for a yuk or two. NWOrthless poster's arguments come in at the level of the 2nd grader at best.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365645&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v2GdyYOX5nMJY7uTBwTWhGDM-S6Ec4XN7atyQ2N6bRM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365645">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365646" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505502278"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Of course <b>@Johnny</b> prefers not to contemplate these issues either.</p></blockquote> <p>This isn't Twatter, johnnycakes. Don't embarrass your lower-ups.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365646&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MFpBoNUK8B30Mlc8Teztc1AwPv7OGCm6rxUNuVru-y4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365646">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365647" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505507586"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWOR: Just in case you were saying something meaningful, I looked up your word <code>psyence</code>. I found four references <i>via</i> Google:<br /> 1) an album by a Japanese performer;<br /> 2) a British performance group;<br /> 3) an Australian (by its url) company that characterizes itself as <code>Psychology + Science</code>;<br /> 4) a Colombian url with the same characterization.</p> <p>Which definition of <code>psyence</code> are we to understand when you use the word, or is it just a meaningless, idiosyncratic usage?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365647&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o3D_IrE1tGxfaYBsQPb18-z4bhub7F_nviPOn9OqsGk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365647">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365648" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505510182"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, the practice where I'm doing my clinical hours this semester has had two confirmed cases of Influzena A in two days.</p> <p>I'm getting my flu shot tomorrow.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365648&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k-EwnsRfkIiAlSCJTKiQDrXg8I2Wuctaw-9KrQJwIKs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365648">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365649" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505525339"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Se Habla Espol:</p> <p>I believe this comes from the Mike Adams/Alex Jones delusion that everything is a psy-op. False flags, vaccines, fake news: all forms of government manipulation to control the masses.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365649&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="b1rxYbJtYJpKythcvp1mJNUyOofBeFPlk7uiFYCgKd8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Woo Fighter (not verified)</span> on 15 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365649">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365650" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505637347"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Many of us are familiar with Bernays and Russell, but realize a) propaganda is not the same as conspiracy, and more importantly b) there is no demonstrated relevance to the matter under discussion here.</p> <p>Yes there is an 'invisible government'; no it's not a conspiracy, and no there is not any reason to suppose that Big Pharma agents have any particular control over mass media.</p> <p>Instructing others to read certain books is strong evidence of not being able to make a coherent argument. There are those who are happy to believe they are somehow in the know in a way that makes them superior to others; indeed, this is likely the main motivation for conspiracy-beliefs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365650&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="B96hfBs2-N6NtYtIRREZMVxMcxOFowPcBWoX3VJPALM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">RJ (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365650">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505648026"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>RJ, on what evidence have you concluded that the invisible government, which you acknowledge exists, doesn't engage in criminal conspiracies? If its actions are benevolent, why operate under a cloak of invisibility?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365651&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9C-WZ6jfee6MjmrO-c6ryE30edtYD8nIBDCcgix82bY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365651">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365652" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505673882"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Because they don't operate under a cloak of invisibility.</p> <p>They operate while being ignored by the populace. Most people pay little attention to how their government really works, while bitching freely about it as they go.</p> <p>If you think they engage in conspiracies, you need to provide evidence.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365652&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ipVUZC9ucf5qK3fgytOIihQ_Epm513i1dVZZdAh4hu0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365652">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365653" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505677009"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Correct - people, in general, give little thought to the various Departments of Public Works &amp; Transportation which keep the streets clean, pick up the trash or just repair pot holes.</p> <p>In general, I find people like NWOR to reside in their own sad, sick little worlds - because they can't handle that the real world is not nearly as interesting as the fantasies they've built for themselves.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365653&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Bkk6umnX-1gnx1gN97foiEaaJeJC5VKl_RUX4bnPzJk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365653">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365654" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505678637"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LOL. The people who come here to learn about conspiracies are way past of the point of needing proof of their existence. Panacea, you sure seem to buy into the idea that humanity is too incompetent for self-determination, and needs "the best of the brightest" to covertly guide their beliefs and behavior "for the greater good." You're either naive enough, and desperate enough for the approval of authority, to believe it; or mercenary enough not to care.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365654&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1TFSET5v2-YqgYsFFqAMU9YuidNeqWrtavIGRp5Z-Z8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365654">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365655" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505682511"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>The people who come here to learn about conspiracies are way past of the point of needing proof of their existence.</i></p> <p>Who need proof of their existence when one can invents its own proof?</p> <p><i>Panacea, you sure seem to buy into the idea that humanity is too incompetent for self-determination, and needs “the best of the brightest” to covertly guide their beliefs and behavior “for the greater good.” You’re either naive enough, and desperate enough for the approval of authority, to believe it; or mercenary enough not to care.</i></p> <p>Assertion fabricated from one's own proof?</p> <p>Alain</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365655&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PlluAU7ieTBsB215lcx3t_4EytfCEmfy_XmoeGzm1Uk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365655">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365656" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505686431"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>darwinslapdog, don't feel bad. You are not alone. David Brin (davidbrin.wordpress.com) refers to the "fevered spite against all fact-users" coming from the right that's popular right now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365656&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5qoSm8Svv0yf-0Uq-SXCty1kH_r5fNSYo-Smm3j5X9Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365656">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505687110"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Okay, NitWit Ordure Distorter, the time has come. Put up or shut up. Put your money where your mouth is. Put your ass on the table.<br /> You made the claim, you provide the proof. That's how these things work. No pithy irrelevant quotations. No reference to the state of medicine a century past and gone. No naming of books that you only read because they tell you what you already believe.<br /> Facts. Real evidence. Nothing but certifiable statements of fact from credible sources. Facts well-attested to. Nothing else. No assertions without evidence. No but-what-abouts.<br /> If you can do that, I have no doubt that Orac will give you the space you need. If you can't, then go bother some more credulous crowd. If you can link "big pharma" to chemtrails or tacmars, you might even make a living out of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365657&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FUQDRWH5V97usN01ILYs8dYXf5b802mqse94zcM0tAE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365657">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365658" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505691697"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Alain, I know you didn't misunderstand my comment. I hope you don't imagine that people won't notice how you twisted it around to suit your agenda. Or that it took 3 of you to try to clean up the mess RJ created by acknowledging we have an invisible government. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365658&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VBT4ycz0Zh373cOw3sEPDpA135L2ClxCOck8SHh92go"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 17 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365658">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505708863"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dear ginny,</p> <p>Can you tell which agenda I do have? :)</p> <p>Alain</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365659&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UWILagJ92BHwW-ltgQtmVnfa6_IH746MMouo1pwK5L8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365659">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365660" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505716366"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Panacea, you sure seem to buy into the idea that humanity is too incompetent for self-determination, and needs “the best of the brightest” to covertly guide their beliefs and behavior “for the greater good.”</p> <p>Really. And just where did I ever say that humanity is too incompetent for self determination? Understanding that many people can't be bothered to understand their own government cannot be extrapolated to mean I think people are too incompetent for self determination and require the NWO in your name to run things for us.</p> <p>Your comment ignores the thousands of people who do get involved in one way or another: people who attend city council meetings, volunteer with community boards, form watchdog groups, and do real activism to maintain transparency.</p> <p>Humans are social beings. We form groups to collectively solve problems, and groups need leaders. When we appoint good leaders, great things can happen. When we appoint incompetent leaders (like Trump, who not only does not understand how government, he does not care and is openly willing to subvert the process for his own ends) horrific things can happen.</p> <p>You are a child. Grow up.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365660&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gk9PdYrzOOPwIBYRjp8fEP3TYFkH5tSttMqxnKS0o4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365660">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505727004"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Panacea, the leaders of an invisible government are not "appointed" by the people they govern--if they were, the government wouldn't be invisible. But nice try at making an invisible government sound like something wholesome, rather than a gaggle of parasitic psychopaths.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LP_2PUXA-yG2iOGZVEytL0M_btru8GkjumB5neO3ydk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365662" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505727725"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWOR: you really do live in a scary place, don't you? Conspiracies everywhere! Why don't you come out and join us in The Real World (tm)? It's not as scary as you think.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365662&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BW9j7JXz2DKRlOEhVKp12meN234U-MSw4J1pfFfRDA0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365662">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365663" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505729877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MESSAGE BEGINS—————————-</p> <p>Shills &amp; Minions</p> <p>Well, I suppose that it was to be expected that in my absence things would spin out of control. My time subjugating a few developing backwaters in the Outer Rim was unchallenging and remarkable only for its dreadful tedium. The reason? No primates! Just a few planets with middling avian and amphibian species staggering about in their early technological phases. Easy to ply with drugs and subjugate. Dull, dull, dull! </p> <p>No real adversaries to consider, certainly nobody with the keen insight to quote Bertrand Russel! I don't think the amphibians even had a Bertrand Russel. So, you're all terribly fortunate to have an adversary so brilliant of mind and wit as this NWA creature. NWX? O? Ah, yes. O. Well, whatever it's called, it's clearly discovered our "invisible government" and even found our scare quote supply. Of course, someone will pay for that with their head for not guarding them more jealously, but I digress. </p> <p>I just want you to appreciate how fortunate you are to be badgered by such a staggering intellect. Warm blooded. Full of itself. Fulminating in some fragrant primate nest, banging away at its tiny, grease-smuged keyboard. No slow, watery amphibian mind, this! It's simply bursting with monkey hubris and verve! So certain of its rightness! </p> <p>Oh, how I have missed you, my shills and minions! Your devotion to The Great Egg Mother (may she kill with mercy), PharmaLucre, and your willingness to sell out your fellow chimps for a life of luxury and revenge would warm my hearts (if that were possible). Looking forward to settling back in on this fractious world.</p> <p>Lord Draconis Zeneca, VH7ihL<br /> Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Author, <i>The Purpose Driven Knife</i></p> <p>Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital<br /> 010011000111000011110000011111000000111111</p> <p>———————————————————MESSAGE ENDS</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365663&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ypxdyyWs-vL9chMVsWXNZAgtQ4fGGk8_i7Qg18BtqI4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Glaxxon PharmaCOM (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365663">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505730060"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is telling how conspiracy mongers like NWOR never provide any evidence to support their statements and deflect obvious rebuttals for their conspiracies by referencing "cloaks of invisibility" and other crap, which apparently only they have penetrated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dmZlrg1R3YNvecg4SHk_Uxi3ZLOV3osrhv8j0Qn_xtg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505733185"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are actually countries in the world that really try to kill their own populace. Weirdly enough, they prefer to spend their money on weapons, not some painfully slow and inefficient health care initiative. America! Look outside your borders. It's the future!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="G5X95XZdQIn_U42K0HmabnN69eWauDEibElQ2ensxCg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505734287"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lord Draconis! You have been greatly missed in these parts. Good to have you back, my Lord. I hope all the hatchlings are well fed before my next visit (the ankles have finally healed, thank you).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vm93nnW7IVrJiHLCAqNZ2HnoRRyNQ897674ajGBnFqc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505743448"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>a gaggle of parasitic psychopaths</p></blockquote> <p>I don't know that Ginny, Rappoport, and Ginny's day job constitute a gaggle, but it's close. Maybe a gurgle of parasitic parasites.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XXlAFwvc9l7louQa4GtZW3oWgBRD_JMKFTQMQaYrAe0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505743520"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ psychopathic, that is</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d86_G7s6ofWYOFaB6HU5ROEyhszHiH-GPsTI1dgMgcA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505748596"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Australia and some European countries levying fines on parents who won't vaccinate:</p> <p><a href="https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/8/3/16069204/vaccine-fines-measles-outbreaks-europe-australia">https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/8/3/16069204/vaccine-fines-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BTIFDJs8oD6DUjcyIdtMfZSpFyoLTjXzc7BRJbwecz0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michelle (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505766996"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can't really read the Vox story on my phone, but if they're referring to the Family Tax Benefit, it's obviously not a fine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tY5bpd53_pz40K4IMrWvNn1nxNWaYHvuyPf8j6B-aJo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505767646"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's the money quote (heh) from the article -</p> <blockquote><p> Here’s a quick roundup of the global crackdown on vaccine-refusing parents:</p> <p>Italy’s parliament passed a law this summer that makes 10 childhood vaccinations mandatory for kids up to age 16, and requires parents to prove their children are immunized before entering school or else face a €500 (about $600 USD) noncompliance fine.</p> <p>Germany is also cracking down on vaccine-refusing parents: Its parliament approved a law that obliges administrators at kindergartens to report parents who refuse counseling from their doctors about vaccines. Health ministries can then also fine the vaccine-hesitant parents up to €2,500 (about $3,000 USD).</p> <p>In France, the health ministry is making 11 vaccines — up from the current three (diphtheria, tetanus, and polio) — mandatory for children by 2018, though there’s no talk of a fine there yet.<br /> In Romania, the government recently adopted a draft bill that requires parents prove their children are vaccinated before kids can go to school.</p> <p>Further afield, New South Wales Australia passed “no jab, no play” legislation in September: Effective January, the law bans unvaccinated kids from preschool and day care and fine the directors of schools that admit un-immunized children $5,500 Australian dollars ($4,400 USD). The law in South Australia is modeled on similarly stringent laws in other Australian states, and across the country, parents with children who aren’t immunized aren’t eligible for child care benefits. </p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BDsMkleOdvSzGYrfH1RDSU6dBoKRETARzGGQxwuajyM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505778427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's a pity that those countries (and NSW) had to learn the hard way. But sometimes that's the only way they will learn. As the saying crudely puts it, "some fellers have to piss on the electric fence themselves".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XLsB2MmzlghnKU4jTFBqhY1GJI4imiCySZwxStAd8xM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 18 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505798470"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Folks like NWO don't like to have their preferred narratives, in which they personally are star human beings, questioned. It seems to make that person uncomfortable to learn that others here actually know about their sources.</p> <p>Let's be straight - 'invisible government' absolutely does engaged in criminal conspiracies, such as Iran-Contra. It is to America's lasting shame that the 'masterminds' of this crime are not in prison for life.</p> <p>But again, that has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. The fact that there have been and are criminal conspiracies is not evidence that any arbitrary, particular conspiracy is ongoing. Sure the CIA does evil things, but that does not prove that they are doing all the (often mutually inconsistent) evil things of which they are accused.</p> <p>A serious claimant to some particular conspiracy will bring evidence of conspiracy, not shadowy claims that there are conspiracies. Absent such evidence, unserious. And present inane requests to read selected books, also unserious.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TxU55wemQwPFyBu7BNP4B0g9Xnclmme4bX9JYpGwkkM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">RJ (not verified)</span> on 19 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505810941"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ RJ</p> <p>Careful with your wording, many concepts - conspiracy, invisible gov' - don't mean the same thing for you and for the likes of NWOR - and you end up feeding her storytelling.<br /> By example, you use "conspiracy" as in "criminal conspiracy" - a bunch of people occupying a legitimate position in society and engaging in behaviors which are very likely to be illegal, at the very least immoral, and would in a ideal world lead to prosecution and jail terms, but legal authorities are looking the other way. In short, Jack Bauer and his handlers, the Corleone family, and the like.<br /> For NWOR, the conspiracists are a nebulous hive group of thousands of people sharing the same agenda, and secretly governing everything. In short, the Illuminati, or the Elders of Zion.</p> <p>And please don't talk about our secret handshake. Lord Draconis is upset enough as it is, and I'm still cleaning the subbasement 4F of our secret underground arctic base after last month's visit from His Lordship's sub-sub-secretary, following a minor breach of protocol involving Sir H*** and some wandering hatchlings.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ty_p71jVv23XzB3KG09pb1JKfRydHSClGokOBWPl6OY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 19 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505865616"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Flu vaccine causes infectious illnesses and immune dysfunction. </p> <p><a href="http://vaccinepapers.org/influenza-vaccine-immune-suppression/">http://vaccinepapers.org/influenza-vaccine-immune-suppression/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4K79hFAbcuhgyQcF9D7q5-1KLZa01Bs0Jkr5Y1KLYqc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vaccine Papers (not verified)</span> on 19 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505872453"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Johnny, aka "Heh! The money quotes."</p> <p>How much can the lives of plebeian children be worth? If Italian parents decide the risks of illness are preferable to the risks of vaccines, it will cost them $600. Is it worth it?</p> <p>I suppose German doctors get about the same 10 pages of vaccine training in medical school as US doctors. If German parents read, say, 500 pages, and decide they don't need a doctor's opinion, it'll cost them $3000. Heck, for that kind of money, I'd probably humor the doctor, even if I had to pay $150 for an office visit.</p> <p>For the first time in history, France is being more polite than the rest of the world. It's just asking parents nicely to give their children 11 vaccines instead of 3. There's no price for refusing--yet.</p> <p>Romanian parents have it easy. No vaccines, no education. It's like a kiddie lottery: A shot at being a doctor or lawyer instead of a beggar or whore, in exchange for a small risk of lifelong disability. What parent wouldn't roll the dice?</p> <p>New South Whales and Australia got it right: Make the price of refusing vaccination so high, only the wealthiest parents can afford to pay it. It's a great way to weed out the plebeian riff-raff.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6LbgEuXpJLrVa0wFFO7vnGROBPwdnjVEI04upeZRfT0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505876193"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Effective January, the law bans unvaccinated kids from preschool and day care and fine the directors of schools that admit un-immunized children $5,500 Australian dollars ($4,400 USD).</i></p> <p>Why is Vox author including a fine on <b>schools</b> under the rubric of "penalising <b>parents</b>"?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wcxH0vLcl9ikWeOvl2rdtNAcwY88IinpEMmDBlUqMfU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 19 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1505882414"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Conspiracy fantasists, like our troll above, do live in a world completely separate from our own. They believe that millions of people, all over the world, can be involved in complex and decades-long global conspiracies, yet even our own government can't keep its deepest, darkest secrets from making front-page headlines.</p> <p>The NSA, one of the most highly-secretive agencies on the planet, can't even keep its most prized hacking tools from ending up on the Dark Web. (not to mention the Snowden Affair).</p> <p>Of course, all of this becomes more fodder for their fantasies - because they will claim that all of this other "stuff" being released is just cover for what's "really going on."</p> <p>If your entire worldview is based on enormous and complicated conspiracies, then perhaps the problem isn't with the world, its with you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q1i6Sn--xUeccDA9ntCKGbBRlAju06ewU4Yh4_adoc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365679" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506044560"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You've probably covered this question somewhere no doubt, but can anyone tell me if vaccines are so fantastic, why did large numbers of NY health care workers(2009, I think) refuse mandated flu and swine shots ? Even if it meant losing their jobs, large numbers responded with doubts of the effectiveness and safety of these vaccines.<br /> And all you on here that are pro-vaccines, do you always get your shots each year ?<br /> For the record I've never had a flu shot, and can only remember having the flu about 14 years ago, for around 3 days.<br /> And numerous people I know that get the flu shot annually, the majority of them get the flu soon after.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365679&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7RHPAcGyBviFxrL-LzKPYwe-79rWyPQnsBKBDzLQ200"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span> on 21 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365679">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365680" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506068827"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Fat cat: Yes, I've gotten the flu shot every year for many years and will get it again next month. No, most people don't "get the flu soon after". It's not possible for an inactivated virus to make someone sick with the flu. If they have the actual flu, they either caught it before they got the shot (it takes several days for you to become ill after exposure) or they caught a version not covered by the vaccine.</p> <p>The flu vaccine may cause you to have a mild fever, mild aches and pains for a day or so as your immune system ramps up. That is in no way, shape, or form like having the actual flu.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365680&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="788Vhsiq0FL_TiZY0-qydwtHcbfklyHQJW0xsNYhN1E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365680">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365681" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506068930"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also: if you had the flu only for 3 days, it wasn't the actual influenza virus. Even with clean living and good health, most people are sick for at least a week, 3-4 of those days unable to get out of bed sick.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365681&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SvVbRxAwDhNbf8b46WNz40nM2Mxe0GA43WYL_M5hyLc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365681">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365682" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506070137"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Fat Cat:</p> <blockquote><p>why did large numbers of NY health care workers(2009, I think) refuse mandated flu and swine shots</p></blockquote> <p>Citation needed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365682&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ATT5aKydFpL0ZeZW6Vv4z-EsXBaf5FCL6do5uXyooRY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365682">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365683" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506092904"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Fat cat #65:</p> <p>Of course most of us in the medical profession follow what we preach and get our influenza vaccine each year because it's a scientifically sound thing to do and not merely because it's compulsory. And please stop promulgating the misinformation that "flu vaccines cause flu." It is biologically implausible to acquire an influenza caused illness from the components of the standard IM influenza vaccine. Please see MI Dawn's comment (#66).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365683&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pd4DAUGHYZjL7T0gn3Hb_OEjRiGr3Cjr_qHlv3rHEyg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Internal Medicine Resident">Internal Medic… (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365683">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365684" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506096222"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> ...and will get it again next month. </p></blockquote> <p>I got mine a few hours ago. </p> <p>I've had the flu. Do not want again.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365684&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7fgDk4b68zxRfHnRmSq814VQ7SrLndh6I2Tlu2nQaHc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365684">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365685" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506104186"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Speaking of health care workers refusing flu shots, some misguided ninnies in the Ohio Legislature are trying to pass a law prohibiting employers from sanctioning employees who won't get flu shots (the bill is obviously aimed at hospitals and clinics with mandatory flu vaccination policies to protect patients).</p> <p>Rep. Hagan and seven co-sponsoring nitwits are behind the bill (HB193), which is now in the House Health Committee. It contains the following incredible clause:</p> <p>"It is the intent of the general assembly that the<br /> prohibition described in division (B) of this section shall not<br /> be expanded to include vaccination against any disease or<br /> illness other than influenza until the overwhelming scientific<br /> consensus clearly indicates a present and immediate danger to<br /> members of the public who receive the vaccination."</p> <p><a href="https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA132-HB-193">https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA1…</a></p> <p>One is left to wonder what "present and immediate danger" is presented by influenza vaccination. I know of one nurse in my area who's active in fearmongering on this subject, claiming that she's seen all kinds of Guillain-Barre cases due to flu vaccination (but curiously has never observed GBS due to influenza itself or other etiologies).</p> <p>Now I have to waste time contacting my state rep to oppose this asinine bill.</p> <p>And oh yes, I get an annual flu shot, to protect myself and family (as well as patients).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365685&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u5chcefcl7qdhtpwKz-jtbiUudgXnQnLNFQNO3CsnD8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365685">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365686" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506109325"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If I come down with flu-like symptoms, I would rather it be the flu than almost anything else that presents with flu-like symptoms.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365686&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="65339lRwNa0HVnhxWS0qAm2wC-2UyEH2TWi78nb98Co"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365686">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365687" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506124724"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Julian Frost, type those key words into a search engine, and dozens and dozens of stories can be seen regarding Healthcare workers refusing Flu shots.<br /> But we all know you knew that, and the fact nobody commenting on this topic has even mentioned this query of mine, just makes me think you haven't got an argument for Healthcare workers refusing flu shots.<br /> Citation needed ? You got nothing eh Frosty ? Lol</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365687&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nA1ZflZiFzDv7T0KwDBnZZKxKR14B5ABwBL7XROPX0A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365687">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365688" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506126183"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fat cat, since you refuse to give specifics of the alleged incident your referring to, the only comment that in any way appropriate or even possible is "[citation required]", or a less polite version like "what are you babbling about?". Your refusal to reply with specific citations shows that you're just another shill for the anti-vax industry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365688&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lbvFMa6D7dwCaBO4PdgxY4AKyK2nqMR_zL4PlWiwrPc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365688">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1365687#comment-1365687" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365689" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506158432"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Fat cat:</p> <blockquote><p>type those key words into a search engine, and dozens and dozens of stories can be seen regarding Healthcare workers refusing Flu shots.</p></blockquote> <p>Nope, that's not how it works. You claimed that in 2009, Health Care Workers in New York systematically refused vaccinations, so you stump up the proof that it happened.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365689&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DoB3HDikHxTGGs1f0W8O8AGrNYWIt1AxpsG59Ar_3Mg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365689">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365690" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506165916"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm proudly anti-vaccine, and this is totally based on the evidence. I read something a while back somewhere that demonstrated without a doubt that vaccines are useless and dangerous - can you refute this definitive study. No, you monsters, I'm not going to give you a link or a citation of what this evidence is or where it is - it's your job to do so. Obviously, your request for a citation is evidence that you're totally defeated by my mighty blast of truth.</p> <p>By the way, later today, can you pre-chew my food, and massage my throat to help me swallow?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365690&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aAC8mHnjkwRKUdg_GV14SkmKtqalYs7LUpLpmFbLSMM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Smarter than all you Doctors and Experts">Smarter than a… (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365690">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506166220"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm proudly anti-vaccine, and this is totally based on the evidence. I read something a while back somewhere that demonstrated without a doubt that vaccines are useless and dangerous - can you refute this definitive study. No, you monsters, I'm not going to give you a link or a citation of what this evidence is or where it is - it's your job to do so. Obviously, your request for a citation is evidence that you're totally defeated by my mighty blast of truth.</p> <p>By the way, later today, can you pre-chew my food, and massage my throat to help me swallow?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LHAS4ux7DLVcx-a9IrU5CsfulAcH65vlEAtAQX-A-CE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Smarter than all you Doctors and Experts">Smarter than a… (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506177637"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/vaccinetruth/posts/10153448927772989">https://www.facebook.com/vaccinetruth/posts/10153448927772989</a> </p> <p>Hope the link above worked and you can see that a Facebook page showing 22,000 nurses are against mandatory flu shots.<br /> Why would they be against flu shots ?<br /> Don't think they work ?<br /> Don't think they're safe ?<br /> Don't care enough about patients ?<br /> Not many other reasons for refusal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gDBex_SV_bk8-1tiqNOIhOM79NfMz7-PnqhWEZejjg0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506178137"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To quote Jessica on tha page</p> <blockquote><p>There's no evidence whatsoever that Nurses Against Mandatory Vaccines has 22,000 members, and however few or many have actually paid their $20 a year, you don't have to be a nurse to join. You can go to their website and have your dog join right now if you like! This is masterful propaganda use of the web by non-medical professionals who spread fairy tale fears as a fund-raising scheme, supposing more people sign up their dogs for $20.</p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gri2jVIjgxue6F99eUObLyISFExOej8vi1t7Lr_b6a4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">squirrelelite (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506178504"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Se Habla espol, Since you have no idea about the issue I raise regarding Healthcare workers refusing mandatory flu shots, I really don't need any input from you on the matter, or from anyone else that are oblivious to the issue.<br /> I know plenty of people that make comments here are aware of the issue, and it's their thoughts on the matter I'm seeking.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dAn3Kh2KcIARMHftiG2J3fvSvm0_sePiRQTxAJbGJ1g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365698" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506191652"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Since you have no idea about the issue I raise regarding Healthcare workers refusing mandatory flu shots,</p></blockquote> <p>The question is not really what story, but which story: was it one of the anti-vax fabrications, and which one, or perhaps it's yet another one you just invented yourself.</p> <p>The issue I point out is your responsibility to provide evidence supporting claims that you make, and your failure to do so.</p> <blockquote><p>plenty of people that make comments here are aware of the issue, and it’s their thoughts on the matter I’m seeking.</p></blockquote> <p>I'm aware of the issue. I note, however, that you did not identify which of the anti-vax inventions you were referring to. However, you seem to have resolved that question by linking to a fakebook claim about an apparent anti-vax attempt to do what the anti-vax industry is so good at, inventing propaganda.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365698&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MJhgemXj_eTBaf6y58ouJ0ZmmacVzOvfo-rymXC_3DA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365698">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1365694#comment-1365694" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506179619"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Fat cat, a link to a Facebook group is not proof. As squirrelelite points out, there's no evidence the group has 22,000 members, and no proof that all of its members are nurses.<br /> What I want is the following: proof that "large numbers of NY health care workers refused mandated flu and swine shots" in the same year. It doesn't even have to be 2009.<br /> I am not going to blindly take the word of a commenter whose pseudonym is the name of one of the main villains from <i>Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers</i>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vcRAAjdWKA3mWL2pIk-WFeXhMjsugZGkE_A-FiOPjbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506191055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Smells like Travis.....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365696&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ALD_OwFiGM9tyw7_Cx8paQBYp4lSaNt-UBTIC0ehbi4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365696">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365697" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506191231"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Since you have no idea about the issue I raise regarding Healthcare workers refusing mandatory flu shots, I really don’t need any input from you on the matter, or from anyone else that are oblivious to the issue.</p></blockquote> <p>The irony here is that there's a much better argument that you could have made (to charitably describe your efforts so far), but you've apparently had your snout in the trough for so long that you're, ah, oblivious to the issue. Get cipherin'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365697&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v_h4mfpd8GQ_W_x44AV4DrD6yiizaypXPG0jTn7oOD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365697">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365699" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506195473"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Hope the link above worked and you can see that a Facebook page showing 22,000 nurses are against mandatory flu shots.</i></p> <p>Umm, link is to a VacTruth page which link to the equally-Orwellian "Naturalsociety" as the source of the claim.<br /> Following that Society's link leads to the EventChronicle... which in turn points to "Nurses against Mandatory Vaccines" as the source of the claim.<br /> The fourth link to the NAMV FB page leads nowhere, because the page is dead or invitation-only.</p> <p>In short, no, there is <b>not</b> "a Facebook page showing 22,000 nurses are against mandatory flu shots."</p> <p>It is not even a claim without evidence... it is a claim with <b>no origin</b>... but evidently you are inclined to believe it anyway, simply because it has been flltered through four stages of human centipede.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365699&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eie8jP9nTtBF-ayCWh5nwbYVXbpaLvHNbzpd57EFRDg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365699">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365700" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506199057"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I see that Patty "Can't Win" Finn tried to get in on the 2009 action, but I'm too tired to go after it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365700&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yAPOXhA7qfDolIXKB35qOLZRA_STkkWvWmVPKMF_2qk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365700">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365701" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506199748"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You know, there are Facebook pages supporting the existence of Alien Abductions that have more than 22,000 members....doesn't make it any more real or true.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365701&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iVli79jZ3kh2Mk_FaCVd4yXRDydQk_HtFroVNbwXrNI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365701">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365702" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506200346"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have a sneaking sense of how the number was whomped up, but I just don't care enough to do this individual's homework.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365702&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l-BVYpA3cpeh8y_OD0X1wirpAj0zQTR9ZMC7rt4pOCA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365702">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365703" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506234571"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This minion in chief went to chomp on some brain and was ecstatic at the thought of chomping on 22 000 only to land at:</p> <p><a href="http://www.namv.org/">http://www.namv.org/</a></p> <p>only to be graced with....this:</p> <blockquote><p>Oops! This site has expired.</p> <p>If you are the site owner, please renew your premium subscription or contact support.</p></blockquote> <p>braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnn....snif</p> <p>(Sad) Minion in chief</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365703&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4Px5FLIMpyAdCXPs6K-xn5Na8am5EdLA_KFoS33sznE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365703">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365704" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506255451"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I know plenty of people that make comments here are aware of the issue, and it’s their thoughts on the matter I’m seeking.</i></p> <p>My thoughts on the matter are that a healthcare professional who refuses a flu shot should find another line of work.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365704&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KUHCRxfqtue6H9M-VOpbU12F7eqQ-w089Q2KnPx7RYI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365704">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365705" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506258841"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmmm. I do remember health care workers reluctant to take small pox jab.</p> <blockquote><p>Although more than half of the respondents thought the likelihood of a bioterrorist smallpox attack was intermediate or high, less than 10% of the group slated for vaccination has actually accepted it at this time. Unless new information about the threat of a smallpox attack becomes available, healthcare workers' perceptions of the vaccine's risks will likely continue to drive their ongoing decisions about smallpox vaccination.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-3-20">https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-3-…</a></p> <blockquote><p> Fewer than 100 of about 13,000 eligible health care workers across the state have decided to roll up their sleeves to receive injections of the smallpox vaccination, a state official said Wednesday.</p> <p>Nationally, less than 1 percent of the expected 450,000 health care workers have become inoculated with the vaccine during the program's first month, the official said.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://newsok.com/article/1917368">http://newsok.com/article/1917368</a> </p> <p>Maybe they all had eczema.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365705&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OkFBGU0sWWAeE_SotN6QOcnn0rsOmpN6liVrMEj66wY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365705">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365709" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506371997"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Maybe they all had eczema.</p></blockquote> <p>Or maybe they just had better sense than to fall for the scary story of the week from the pols and the media.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365709&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VG7OVKZH4VNo8c7ciF5mXFCeDxmJMZ8-od42sk7cyzk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365709">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1365705#comment-1365705" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365706" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506305014"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As ORAC said in a his blog a couple of years ago," Every year even with the most careful deliberations going into making the choice of strains of flu virus to include in the vaccine, it's always a bit of a crapshoot.<br /> That sums up all of medical science really, a CRAPSHOOT.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365706&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zAY3J9h-KJdQT7Vmx8kJQ-RPoU_4wyqRSZla2MHhoS0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Fat cat (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365706">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365707" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506306704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>That sums up all of medical science really, a CRAPSHOOT.</p></blockquote> <p>Argument by assertion again?<br /> You've just proven you have nothing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365707&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_KW34Ahag2FrbanNb4yMMmNCkc5WoJlU68mupHX7oWE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365707">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365708" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506316170"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Actually, it's the best decision made based on available evidence and research into circulating strains in Asia (which invariably spread worldwide each year).</p> <p>While the current Influenza vaccine isn't always the best, there are high hopes for the new series of "Universal" Flu vaccine which are reaching the later stages of development and testing.</p> <p>Research into the virus itself has helped identify areas which don't mutate at the same rate and provide commonality across most, if not all, of the circulating strains....so, we'll see.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365708&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qW90O_YNS62ncx6P0WoiUUMI-XpYHT_N4tCEXXAfH30"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365708">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1365710" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506373673"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>That sums up all of medical science really, a CRAPSHOOT,</i></p> <p>And that crapshoot is why I am alive today to call you an effing idiot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1365710&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JiE4UMDTpF6BLETwEi6BBwvRjRo2psoXxFg8N_0a06A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1365710">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2017/09/15/another-antivaccine-conspiracy-theory-flu-vaccine-edition%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 15 Sep 2017 05:00:54 +0000 oracknows 22624 at https://scienceblogs.com Pharma hit squads vs. "holistic healers": The resurrection https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/07/25/pharma-hit-squads-vs-holistic-healers-the-resurrection <span>Pharma hit squads vs. &quot;holistic healers&quot;: The resurrection</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As a skeptic, I can't help but taking an interest in conspiracy theories. The reason, of course, is because behind virtually every commonly accepted pseudoscientific and antiscience ideas there is conspiracy theory. For instance, in the case of the antivaccine movement, the conspiracy theory is that some combination of the CDC, big pharma, and the FDA is conspiring to hide the truth—excuse me, The Truth—that vaccines cause autism, brain damage, autimmune disease, diabetes, sudden infant death syndrome, shaken baby syndrome, and whatever other disease, injury, or condition that antivaxers like to attribute to vaccines. The same is true with alternative medicine in alternative cancer cures. Inevitably, if you get into discussions with believers, sooner or later (usually sooner) they'll tell you that The Man (a.k.a. big pharma and/or the FDA) is keeping the cures from the people in order to protect profits from low cost "natural" cancer cures. The same goes for GMOs, in which the all-powerful Monsanto is "suppressing" evidence of all the alleged harm they do. Yes, be it 9/11 Truthers, Moon Hoaxers, or even Bigfoot hunters, behind every significant bit of pseudoscience is a conspiracy theory, or at least conspiracy theories inevitably crop up to "explain" why the pseudoscience isn't accepted.</p> <!--more--><p>Sometimes, these conspiracy theories reach ridiculous levels, so much so that they can even become entangled with larger stories. In this case, antivax conspiracy theories have impinged on the <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/24/justine-damonds-fiance-says-he-regrets-not-staying-on-phone-before-shooting">tragic story of Justine Damond</a>, the woman killed by a Minneapolis police officer less than two weeks ago. Before I get to how the tragedy of what happened to Justine Damond is getting more tragic, I need to review some background.</p> <p>Perhaps the strangest conspiracy theory I've ever come across popped up around two years ago, when the body of antivaccine autism quack (but I repeat myself) Dr. Jeff Bradstreet was <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/16/the-mysterious-death-of-a-doctor-who-peddled-autism-cures-to-thousands/?utm_term=.ceb89f675fcf">found in the Rocky Broad River</a> in mountainous North Carolina with a bullet wound to the chest. The local law enforcement authorities determined that it was a suicide, and within a month it came out that the day before his death Bradstreet's clinic had been raided by the FDA for selling a "wonder cure" in the form of a compound known as GcMAF, as I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/07/17/gcmaf-autism-and-the-apparent-suicide-of-an-autism-quack/">discussed at the time</a>. Not surprisingly, Bradstreet's family, as well as many antivaxers, <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/29/anti-vaccine-doctor-behind-dangerous-autism-therapy-found-dead-family-cries-foul/?utm_term=.d250d113e7bc">didn't believe that Bradstreet committed suicide</a>. His family even raised $33,000 to hire private detectives to "find the truth." Two years later, no convincing evidence has been found that Bradstreet died other than by suicide.</p> <p>Not long after that, there emerged a conspiracy theory in which "holistic medicine" practitioners were supposedly being targeted for murder, starting with Dr. Bradstreet. It started when <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/09/14/the-gonzalez-protocol-worse-than-useless/">cancer quack</a> Dr. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/07/24/nicholas-gonzalez-the-latest-victim-of-the-pharma-assassins/">Nicholas Gonzalez died suddenly</a> of what, as far as I could gather from the news reports, sure sounded like a sudden heart attack, something all too unfortunately common in older men. Basically, Erin Elizabeth, who runs an alternative medicine website (Healthnutnews.com) and also happen to be <em>über</em>-quack Joe Mercola's girlfriend, started looking for "holistic" doctors who died under mysterious circumstance. Not surprisingly, she was able to find some, and as a result spun a wild tale of a "conspiracy" by The Man to kill alternative medicine practitioners based on the thinnest of gruel. Basically, she spun a tale of <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/06/25/how-they-view-us-buying-state-senators-and-murdering-alternative-medicine-practitioners/">filthy pharma lucre buying hit men</a> to eliminate those pesky "holistic healers."</p> <p>To be honest, I hadn't paid attention to this truly silly conspiracy theory <a href="https://www.healthnutnews.com/recap-on-my-unintended-series-the-holistic-doctor-deaths/" rel="nofollow">since maybe early 2016</a>, but the story of Dr. Justine Damond brought it back again. If you've been paying attention to the news, you know that Damond, an Australian, called 911 to report what to her sounded like a rape happening in the alleyway behind her home. What happened next is something that never should have happened. Here is <a href="https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/minnesota/articles/2017-07-22/timeline-of-justine-damond-shooting">the reported timeline</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> 11:27 p.m. — Justine Damond calls 911 to report hearing sounds of distress from a girl or woman behind her house. She says it may be a rape. A dispatcher says officers should arrive soon.</p> <p>11:35 p.m. — Damond calls 911 again to ask why police haven't arrived yet. She gives the dispatcher address again.</p> <p>11:41 p.m. — Officers Matthew Harrity and Mohamed Noor arrive and drive south down the alley behind Damond's house. Harrity, who is driving, is startled by a loud noise near his squad car. Damond approaches the driver's side window immediately afterward, and Noor fires his gun past Harrity, striking Damond through that window of the vehicle, according to Harrity in an interview with state investigators.</p> <p>11:42 p.m. — Radio report of one person down, starting CPR.</p> <p>11:50 p.m. — Radio report of police doing CPR for "last four minutes."</p> <p>11:51 p.m. — Damond is pronounced dead in the alley at the south end of her block. A medical examiner later says Damond was shot once in the abdomen. </p></blockquote> <p>This case is yet another example of a police shooting of an unarmed civilian, with a twist: The victim was not black and not male. Not surprisingly, though, there has been a huge backlash over this, leading to the <a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/minneapolis-police-chief-resigns-fatal-shooting-justine-damond/">resignation of Minneapolis police chief Janeé Harteau</a>.</p> <p>You probably see where this is going. The unexpected twist? Damond was an Australian "holistic healer, cancer researcher and trained veterinarian surgeon." To give you an idea, here's a <a href="https://youtu.be/wayh5bST_GA">video</a> she did:</p> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wayh5bST_GA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe><p> I didn't watch the whole thing, but there is a lot of stuff about "quantum fields," information, and "universal intelligence." And here's her website, as found in <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20161202103816/http://justinedamond.com">late 2016 on Archive.org</a>. As you can see, it's fairly typical New Age woo. There's no reason for me to dwell on it, other than as evidence of her bona fides as a "holistic healer." That was enough to get Erin Elizabeth to do her ghoulish thing and take advantage of yet another tragedy to plant the seed of adding this unfortunate woman<a href="https://www.healthnutnews.com/spiritual-healer-killed-by-police-in-minneapolis/"> to her imagined hit list</a>, noting that we've "lost so many holistic healers and doctors in just two short years."</p> <p>It wasn't long before stories with titles like <a href="http://yournewswire.com/holistic-doctor-pharma-shot-dead/" rel="nofollow">Holistic Doctor, Working Against Big Pharma, Shot Dead By Police</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Australian holistic healer and former veterinarian, Dr. Justine Damond, has been shot dead by Minneapolis police, as the community of physicians seeking to operate outside the confines of Big Pharma continues to be decimated.</p> <p>Dr. Damond, 40, was killed while standing in her pajamas outside the Minneapolis house owned by her partner. She had previously called 911 to report an intruder in the alley outside the house, however when police arrived they shot several times at the holistic doctor and killed her.</p> <p>According to reports, the police who arrived (including the one who shot her) had their body cameras turned off.</p> <p>The well-known health and lifestyle coach, who was actively campaigning for people to take control of their lives and reject Big Pharma’s crippling products, joins the long list of holistic doctors and healers who have been killed in suspicious or unsolved circumstances during the past two years. </p></blockquote> <p>Of course, with Justine Damond, as with Jeff Bradstreet, as with Nicholas Gonzalez, as with the 60 other "holistic healers" in the list compiled by Erin Elizabeth, there is no evidence that any of the deaths are related or in many cases (like Dr. Gonzalez) that there was even any sort of foul play involved. Also, as was noted on <a href="http://www.snopes.com/holistic-doctor-big-pharma/">Snopes.com</a>, arguing against Damond's death as being due to assassination was how rapidly the officers got out of the car to administer CPR and call EMS. Also, remember that the incident that started the chain of events leading to the tragedy of Damond's death was her herself calling 911 because she heard what she thought was a woman being attacked in the alley behind the house she shared with her fiancé. No noise, no phone call, no police coming to investigate, no shooting. I'm surprised Elizabeth or someone else hasn't insinuated that the noise of the attack was an intentional ploy to frighten Damond, to get her concerned enough to call 911, so that the pharma-controlled Minneapolis police could carry out their hit. The case of Justine Damond is truly sad, but whatever her death was evidence of, lack of adequate training of police or being too eager to shoot first, it wasn't evidence of some sort of massive pharm conspiracy to murder holistic healers.</p> <p>As I've said before, ever since the death of Jeff Bradstreet, it appears that anyone associated with any sort of “alternative” or “holistic” medicine who dies under any but the most obvious and easily verified circumstances will become a victim of the conspiracy. That’s the beauty of the conspiracy. Anyone can be part of it. Worse, the more publicized the death, the more likely it is that the person who died will be portrayed as yet another victim of the conspiracy. Damond is only just the most publicized death of all. The funny thing is, this conspiracy theory is so wacky, that even Mike Adams hasn't thought to latch on to it since the shooting.</p> <p>You know you're really being a despicable conspiracy-monger when even Mike Adams won't touch the story. Of course, by the time this article posts, I could be proven wrong by Adams doing just that and publishing one of his patented screeds. It's how fake news works.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Mon, 07/24/2017 - 21:38</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/conspiracy-theory" hreflang="en">conspiracy theory</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/holistic-healer" hreflang="en">Holistic healer</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/justine-damond" hreflang="en">Justine Damond</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/police-shooting" hreflang="en">Police shooting</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362964" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500947097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A. Ms. Elizabeth has a video complaining about Snopes' explanation that her assertions are wrong. Apparently, it's retaliation for her complaints about Snopes' success in fundraising: another conspiracy. </p> <p>B. Tragic story.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362964&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eLZUUO3q0mqn1qJ69cPP-Aam3Ie6uPqu75gM1G3fF24"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dorit Reiss (not verified)</span> on 24 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362964">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362965" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500961913"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I mean, given the world's population, you can find a "long list" of people dead under "mysterious circumstances" in any field. As long as you apparently include natural causes under the category of mysterious, that is. This woman's fuzzy logic could apply to accountants, writers, or professional poker players if we really wanted.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362965&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JydxH60AYzZOgLzxB90gtHBOKR59JmstnSakX2oqzIw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zach (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362965">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362966" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500967045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>At the end of Dr. Justine Damond's video, she describes the personal experience/feeling of saving eight ducklings that were stuck in a drain.</p> <p>With all due respect, Dr, Justine Damond, DVM was the Steve Irwin (a.k.a., Crocodile Hunter) of "holistic" medicine.</p> <p>Rest In Peace</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362966&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dnk23ZNBLpSx7VevIFnfcucEnzrgIf_TRvSkF0rDb2Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362966">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362967" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500968429"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ugh. Despicable.</p> <p>This lady's family has enough grief to deal with without this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362967&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0rkFPU7aS217uRL9wi4f_pCQWjBxixefzPGCl2U2gS4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362967">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362968" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500969569"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just google obituaries for physicians who have died, and you can turn it around on these nuts. You could say that physicians are being killed for supporting vaccination, or some other ridiculous thing like that.</p> <p>Also, the word "decimation" keeps being misused. That confuses me. :-p</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362968&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fBcd8uPWgTIR8v8XuMhYpfgsV0Z4Hsi8pVyI4AQqRnM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ren (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362968">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362969" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500969924"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are probably a hundred holistic healers in Minneapolis. Can you imagine how inefficient it would be to wait for them to call the police and have a "sleeper" agent show up in a patrol car? Not to mention that the officer didn't know who she was, and that's a big part of why he panicked.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362969&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SBVafqcOpbkXHRgXVngM2bYNYH4xQsCqf0fJLiJYPgA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Christine Rose (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362969">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362970" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500971981"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Ren - it appears that only a few of us students of history have any concept of what "decimation" actually means....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362970&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fR2G7L5UkP90NjliUeqV91FQ1KRTUEEuOmopL-4v4Ho"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362970">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362971" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500972251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lawrence: clearly. I have no doubt Elizabeth has no idea what decimated really means. Otherwise she'd use a word like "massacred."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362971&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cF9KpmVrHqKaEAn6bs8Wwp8xBt_qG6Qr7fypMiQE_f8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362971">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362972" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500972677"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Christine Rose: the fact he panicked at all is not a good sign in a police officer (and yes, I actually discussed this with my PO brother in law. He was disgusted that the officer pulled his gun with no reason. He works in Detroit area, so knows all about bad areas).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362972&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HiJofz_W1yoctTT1h-0GEZQItTRvgp5k-0WTVfM6Dbg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362972">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362973" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500973955"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Someone has put up a warning sign that Twin Cities cops are easily startled:<br /><a href="http://www.citypages.com/news/after-another-police-shooting-sign-warns-twin-cities-cops-easily-startled/436285843">http://www.citypages.com/news/after-another-police-shooting-sign-warns-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362973&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FqcKnreQMbvlPEmk0atch1WX-TFLUBj-UM6p_Alyiw4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362973">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362974" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500975149"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>They tried to kill the Food babe. They locked her in an airplane with only 21% oxygen! She's lucky to be alive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362974&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rN1KYVE4bNffWTnVC7pCE48wLw1gFfDF_k6fotcitT0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd Stonewall (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362974">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362975" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500975501"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You could put the whole universe through the holes in health nut's "theories". </p> <p>That being said, I suspect what health nut is doing compares to that list of AVers have of research articles "showing" vaccines cause autism (which Liz Ditz has nicely refuted article by article). Even though this list of articles by AVers is a farce, it will still convince a few people out there because, well--<i>all those articles!</i>. If health nut can get a big enough list together of "murdered" holistics, it will convince a certain percentage of the non-critically-thinking part of the population that Big Pharma is out to kill woo-meisters. Those convinced also probably make good future customers for all the crap peddled by health nut and her quack spouse, which is of course their ultimate goal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362975&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5aFh95g4tjFTonXpu2vjIA5NOyvfT8g6IFFnYZZmGZY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362975">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362976" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500975718"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Conspiracy theories...I love 'em. </p> <p>Chemtrails, anyone?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362976&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kcFtrb956dMVBot-LmWDNU9sf8WVv19y7JXhGzvhIvg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JeffM (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362976">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362977" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500977884"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's fun to see woo conspiracy mongers end up as the targets of conspiracy theories at least as bizarre as anything they dreamed up.</p> <p>Thus we have Albert Stubblebine, alt health "leader" and previously star of a military psy-ops program, labeled as a government stooge out to discredit the alt health movement. Erin Elizabeth of Holistic Doctor Murder Conspiracy fame has been "exposed" as really being out to compile information on wooists and scare them away from criticizing the Medical Establishment.</p> <p>"Applied in the Mercola-Finn natural health products enterprise, Erin’s deception is a goldmine. Together, with their team of computer accomplices, the couple has effectively “obtained information with . . . the use of technology” that includes the names, addresses, demographic data, and e-mail contacts identifying Big Pharma’s main adversaries–millions of citizens inclined to oppose vaccinations, water fluoridation, GMOs and every other controversial issue in healthcare; and all through the “Art of Deception.”'</p> <p>It's pretty complex stuff and rather nasty (to paraphrase Jay Gordon), but those wishing to delve deeply into the conspiracy shouldn't miss this fabulous investigative report:</p> <p><a href="http://www.waronwethepeople.com/sex-drugs-internet-fraud-the-secret-life-of-erin-elizabeth-finn-and-dr-joseph-mercola/">http://www.waronwethepeople.com/sex-drugs-internet-fraud-the-secret-lif…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362977&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eP-Ceqq5ixxctEGTVnTirRJaUZdh3m5YhNG345zYeQg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362977">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362978" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500979129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@7: I know, right? That's almost as ridiculous as using "appear" to mean the 14th century sense of "seem to be" instead of the pure original 13th century sense of "come into physical view"! Or using "only" as an adjective; who would dare to do that when the word was originally an adverb? So many people that ignore original etymology of words and use them in different ways than they were first historically used. It's shameful. :P</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362978&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VkzQZ8KpW1z3dgS8z85HCnvfE9oIu78j3nJY6qb2TpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Idran (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362978">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362979" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500981742"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"It’s shameful."</p></blockquote> <p>It's not shameful. It's hilarious.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362979&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NNuKVnpQbcpqwXVyiEe_vPS9-dD8LTQfwA5ecT1XThA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ren (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362979">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362980" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500982752"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have yet to meet a conspiracy theorist who only loved one theory. Most frightening in current US events is the obvious lack of critical thinking and how the echoes in various rabbit holes amplify each other. After having dialed back Mr Woo's suspicions about vaccination, links curated by his favorite alternative website and YouTube channels have him convinced they are lethal poison again.</p> <p>He regularly reads the HealthNut, and her continuing updates of these "assassinations" are part of his "evidence" of the corruption and reach of the nefarious New World Order.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362980&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NLHuhuddzyhx-JoecomDx-PxAWIUUw5goAU1yJVI_FU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362980">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362981" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500982874"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Elizabeth has managed to come up with a CT less plausible than David Icke's lizardian shape-shifting aliens plotting the New World Order. Surely, though, the sign of a functional CT is that any attempt at debunking just drives it to deeper levels down the rabbit hole to account for the apparent 'flaw'. </p> <p>For example, it occurred to me to ask why a Big Pharma hit squad would target a small fry competitor like Justine Damond when there are so many more prominent and successful evangelists for The Truth of holistic healing. Surely the assassins would be working closer to the top of the list, eh? But then I realized there's an explanation...</p> <p>The corrupted cop mistook Damond for Gyneth Paltrow.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362981&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pcCjR_zjcrwdgPzL_QVqBto4NPCF_FVeiTh5c26vPYU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362981">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1362984" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500991707"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's just one problem with that scenario: What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis, rather than one of her properties in Southern California or NYC?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362984&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ao4R1OnPP0Ya4nNy220EHj5TYeN6HsbFmFlAp_Ong6k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362984">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1362981#comment-1362981" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362982" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500985704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Mrs Woo:</p> <p>It must not be fun to deal with that amount of woo on a daily basis:<br /> I only read and hear it.</p> <p>Interestingly, today Ann ( AoA) asks what happens to a country when you 'shave a few IQ points off children...</p> <p>Should we tell her?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362982&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fSbqRSh5tripFTg_u260or-ZqCkZxH6IBucVuV6CEqM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362982">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362983" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500986895"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Also, the word “decimation” keeps being misused. That confuses me. :-p</p></blockquote> <p>Hey, I'm a prescriptivist when I think there's something to preserve, but that particular ship sailed a long time ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362983&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nQibX_LExtVnJX2swluATL3rryTwSrvlKYqAu6kF3Cs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362983">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362985" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500992499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There’s just one problem with that scenario: What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis, rather than one of her properties in Southern California or NYC?</p></blockquote> <p>Why would your partner discharge his weapon <b>right in front of your face?</b> You're thinking too far inside the box.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362985&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5GyJB4f2zeTAQDLUHw_rq2JWCx-W8zGZqzUfWmT2BVw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362985">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362986" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500992961"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Vaccines are very powerful given their intimate access to a biological system. It is not hard to imagine that some *conspiracy* to slip some property into them that degrades an individual <b>will</b> happen at some point or another. </p> <blockquote><p>Already this year we’ve vaccinated more mares with birth control than the bureau did all of last year.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/opinion/wild-horses-land-management.html">https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/opinion/wild-horses-land-management…</a></p> <blockquote><p>One of the big fears is that people or animals co-infected with a seasonal flu virus of humans and a virulent avian flu virus like H5N1 will act as a mixing vessel... when co-infecting a cell they can mix and match (reassortment), thus producing new hybrid bird-human viruses. Baxter put both viruses in the same vial, presumably for use as a vaccine. Baxter is calling the mixture an “experimental virus material,” whatever that is. All we know is that a nasty live virus cocktail of human and bird influenza virus was made (Baxter says accidentally). Exactly to whom it was given, if anyone, is not being publicly divulged.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/02/28/baxter-bird-flu-botch/">http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/02/28/baxter-bird-flu-botch/</a> </p> <p>^^I know, right?? </p> <p>Another nepharious thing I fully expect (if it has not already happened) is that components of mandatory vaccines will be employed to modify the brain to *guard* against addiction/pleasure from illicite drugs -- also blocking off natural dopamine/cannabinoid pathways. What can be done, will be done. Do we really want to be vaccinated against pleasure?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362986&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="850uYv2cwKhNl34gBaWNF9m-YATCqVG-Ov1VEc--SpM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362986">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362987" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500993704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Orac #19:</p> <blockquote><p>What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis, rather than one of her properties in Southern California or NYC?</p></blockquote> <p>The Minneapolis hit was a dry run, obviously.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362987&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j5WMaLrfDaBE4vMbVGeUJqdKV-ChfCVW-hxsJAOG-_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362987">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362988" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500994251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Another nepharious thing I fully expect (if it has not already happened) is that components of mandatory vaccines will be employed to modify the brain to *guard* against addiction/pleasure from illicite drugs</p></blockquote> <p>Remember when your father put a hit out on you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362988&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Jfq8XEMJr-tQ2_ms0DjMGwF6ol5i7FSVWHJZnv38bEc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362988">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362989" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500994278"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> His family even raised $33,000 to hire private detectives to “find the truth.”</i><br /> They started out aiming for $25000 with the GoFundMe account, which jumped up to $50000 when the first goal was met. Eventually the donations reached $44000. Every six months or so the family would add updates along the lines of "Investigations have reached the critical point, expect dramatic announcements soon, police are obstructing our work, send me money".<br /><a href="https://www.facebook.com/candice.leebradstreet/posts/10209347031286807">https://www.facebook.com/candice.leebradstreet/posts/10209347031286807</a></p> <p>Bradstreet's widow became a Person of Interest.<br /><a href="https://www.facebook.com/candice.leebradstreet/posts/10210295883327515">https://www.facebook.com/candice.leebradstreet/posts/10210295883327515</a></p> <p>Then the GoFundMe page just disappeared, cached in and folded up, with no word of what happened to the accumulated total! -- leaving only the version at Wayback Machine<br /><a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20170411111920/https://www.gofundme.com/xscefs">https://web.archive.org/web/20170411111920/https://www.gofundme.com/xsc…</a><br /> (which does not record the entire trail of hilarious messages left by credulous numpties).<br /> Though the family did take credit for the Investigation Discovery TV program. </p> <p>Nor should we forget the $8000 that Erin raised from gullible numpties to fund an Indie Film reconstructing / dramatising the assassination story:<br /><a href="https://www.facebook.com/HealthNutNews/videos/1273294962685688">https://www.facebook.com/HealthNutNews/videos/1273294962685688</a><br /><a href="https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-power-to-cure-feature-film#/">https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-power-to-cure-feature-film#/</a></p> <p>It all seems an appropriate way of commemorating Bradstreet's fraudulent career.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362989&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DYr5UkdB_4muxXJBGwzKPkt6DBMeygSRaAiLyn5lEIw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362989">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362990" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500994592"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad,</p> <p>How about the shooter was really trying shoot his partner but was such a great shot that he hit Damand instead. No matter what, the training of these police officers is defective at best.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362990&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9p9Ag3UA7DTIBalukmKm5ivSgjpZVINstdgLiSvQJ-c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362990">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362991" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500995227"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@sadmar: speaking of lizard aliens taking over the world, you've seen this, right?</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0TEJMJOhk">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0TEJMJOhk</a></p> <p>Wait for the end if you haven't. It's worth it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362991&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ccl9I2_y5IjMCqwWiTgXgOHYIDArf86WwQUJo_Obr3s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362991">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362992" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500996414"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't get what all the fuss is about. Just about every disentangling of a mystery begins with a conspiracy theory, just like every science experiment starts with a hypothesis. Is the author claiming all scientific hypotheses are bogus too? If not, why not? After all, a hypothesis isn't proven fact, just a suspicion based on limited evidence so why would anyone bother to investigate a hypothesis?</p> <p>People that disparage conspiracy theories often do nothing more than make themselves look guilty of being involved in one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362992&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oqJJbWcn16b4RVjC0VQsaLggOBTlmqD4Q3ddlicJiQg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lenina Crowne (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362992">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362993" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500997524"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Remember when your father put a hit out on you?</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, Narad. There was a better offer from the Yakuza which amortized the deal thereof into perpetuity. </p> <p> You might have attended to, you know, the actual words.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362993&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fmz4FXfyqmP7bGvsEFf5PN8ni3CVzlKcw5KoLf-ZNdc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362993">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362994" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500997631"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tim @23: I believe that what the vinter who wrote that opinion piece meant was "injected" rather than "vaccinated", given that there are several injectible hormonal forms of birth control available for humans and other mammals. None of those are true vaccine, involving the immune system.</p> <p>But thank you for repeating one of the oldest vaccine conspiracy theories of the developing world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362994&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xLKxxncqlJ1WLd2pjFigwcm7EilbJiL0MvMBt2tbZRc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362994">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362995" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500998802"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>es, Narad. There was a better offer from the Yakuza which amortized the deal thereof into perpetuity.</p> <p>You might have attended to, you know, the actual words.</p></blockquote> <p>Poor Mitzi Dupree.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362995&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4ulnVDToWTt67pONGupZGIv1SwNfjVOuEjvZ5B51EpY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362995">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362996" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1500999915"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis, rather than one of her properties in Southern California or NYC?</p></blockquote> <p>Preparing to attend a performance of <i>A Prairie Home Companion</i>? Trying to get on blueberry season? Searching for the headwaters of the Mississippi? Exploring the possibilities of a <i>The Prince and the Pauper</i> scenario*?</p> <p>* Far better than the <i>The Man in the Iron Mask</i> scenario.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362996&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cEQUxxTFdktwB7SueB1R8nzezPzTbzqWDd5x7xTuehg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362996">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362997" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501001047"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nepharious?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362997&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aCCMYIR8Oo-1F27gHWDE2HdHw3oBWB_H04wZlq-7_Y8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362997">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362998" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501002963"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can see it now: The chiropractors, naturopaths, and reiki practitioners turning out in the streets en masse, chanting and holding signs that read "Quack Lives Matter".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362998&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SVHWblSJsPklPLhEgnI5tCDKLLjQrT4Uu0dB-BWv_C0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362998">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1362999" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501003025"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac (#19) asks,</p> <p>What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis...</p> <p>MJD's response,</p> <p>Providing free samples of product from the (Eco) Diaper Company which appear to be more cute than cutesy.</p> <p><a href="http://goop.com/parasol-the-cutest-new-eco-diaper-company/">http://goop.com/parasol-the-cutest-new-eco-diaper-company/</a></p> <p>This is an example of forward-thinking products made in the USA!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1362999&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jwCIUd9joOOvLwI28qPSWzcVdxleBiCFWoGNIVElnSg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1362999">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363000" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501006984"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>There was a better offer from the Yakuza which amortized the deal thereof into perpetuity.</i></p> <p>Never do a pink promise with the Yakuza.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363000&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gdrkg-sx_du_jXQrlDhjXwAS1aUFNeWNxPWZM309ohw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363000">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363001" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501013722"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>chiropractors, naturopaths, and reiki practitioners turning out in the streets en masse, chanting and holding signs that read “Quack Lives Matter”.</i></p> <p>ORD is BANNED.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363001&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0NLxNAucUiuZshmFot1Up1XnbvJyrE5jnoDS_d_QFn0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363001">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363002" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501014912"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lenina Crowne, #29</p> <p>Except that conspiracy theories, as we're using htem here, persist LONG after evidence is mounted against them and/or they're disproven.</p> <p>They continue even though they're ridiculous on their face, as noted in these comments, and sometimes not even close to being feasible.</p> <p>I'm not a scientist, but I don't think this is quite how hypotheses are formed or explored.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363002&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RSfdS6cf5dJExAbQNv--RmwcqvzCuAaQN4uPrYaGf8M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CJTX (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363002">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363003" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501016165"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"People that disparage conspiracy theories often do nothing more than make themselves look guilty of being involved in one."</p> <p>How can our dastardly plot be unraveled with such ease?</p> <p>Sadly, the Genius Fool Principle decrees that conspiracies of devilish intelligence and complexity (in this case, the massive conspiracy to mock conspiracy theories) are inevitably found out by the ignorant unwashed. :(</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363003&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wToH-jLt9YS2lAJAMzWIQsepuzomY_eOV0v8YbT7DLo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363003">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363004" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501020961"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In some of his more esoteric posts, Orac has spoken on Bayesian probability, where the prior expected probability (e.g.the unlikelihood of some oddball woo) is incorporated into subsequent evaluations of likelihood. Although there is still a bit of controversy over the math (frequentist vs Bayesian statistics -- though the latter appears to be winning), it does explain conspiracy theorists whose prior probability seems weighted entirely by a paranoid world view. Thus even from a mathematical viewpoint disproving them looks difficult.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363004&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wRsbqmWnHcJwgaMnpXCOszsEbAOWTSwywbD8PWn1Z2o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">weirdnoise (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363004">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363005" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501039123"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Do we really want to be vaccinated against pleasure?</i></p> <p>Could you please hand me the bottle of vodka? pretty please?</p> <p>Al</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363005&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f4_2Tk662SBZkRt3U2G99ifQxDQKAtgwg3ASuxJ8PpE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 25 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363005">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363006" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501058640"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"People that disparage conspiracy theories often do nothing more than make themselves look guilty of being involved in one."</p> <p>Are you sure you want justice done your way? Because if we did, I could get you tried and executed for causing the Great Chicago Fire.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363006&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yk2Stlz-F7VblYQvWzQMcExwmhE5qXDoE6HauepP_Fg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363006">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363007" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501061861"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lenina: Just about every disentangling of a mystery begins with a conspiracy theory,</p> <p>You haven't actually read any mystery novels, have you? I can only think of one or two where the protagonist actually encountered a conspiracy, and most of them amounted to 'let's kill this one dude so we're all guilty and all get satisfaction." The few real life 'mysteries' I can think of are mostly John Doe cases, or the Jacob Wetterling case which were always the result of actions carried out by ONE person, not a group.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363007&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ikh3ilAO1w3dw3BzqCDkS9POkX6etKH7UvMg5Aeskcs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363007">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363008" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501061881"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@weirdnoise, #41</p> <p>In IMHO the correct response to conspiracy theories is falsifiablity. No matter how much evidence you dump on a conspiracy theory it keeps on burning because their is always a possible new arm to the sinister web of deceit. But if you can't define a point where the theory *could* be proven false, then the theory should be rejected out of hand..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363008&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bzjHw7N_Opi-LjBOTJsugMjE1Fwy1FxmyAtAxzs_q7E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Christine Rose (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363008">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363009" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501063382"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, does anyone else wonder if those parasol diapers actually work? They look cute, but I really have to wonder about their durability.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363009&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wGNRskvYmmL7wgEahPdEBJwpHYk1q_hiB1Wz0Ot9snM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363009">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363010" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501073105"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Although there is still a bit of controversy over the math (frequentist vs Bayesian statistics — though the latter appears to be winning)"</p> <p>No, no, no. Both are perfectly valid statistical methods. The problem is when the wrong method is applied to a particular problem. That some (including scientists who ought to know better) persist in wrongness does not make for a valid debate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363010&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fsjc1fwc458xfM64Q8YtNZp9uKhxbvam7UNkrTvBoOo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rs (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363010">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363011" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501080735"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Denice Walter #20</p> <p>Listening to his version of reality on webcasts and Christian radio is almost painful (one of the new defenders of the president has his own radio show, and another radio host apparently gets to visit the Oval Office at least weekly; if anything the president knows who to manage). I am beginning to feel cognitive dissonance myself.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363011&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QLiYS0xiqgO_OvsG_Ba9P2EEE7-jt6KJCTuGdDUPR88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363011">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363012" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501099228"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There’s just one problem with that scenario: What would Gwyneth Paltrow be doing in a house in Minneapolis, rather than one of her properties in Southern California or NYC?</p></blockquote> <p>[Just ONE? I take it Orac hadn't had his coffee yet when he gave that reply.]<br /> You say "problem", I say <i>evidence</i> of how powerful and insidious this conspiracy is, and how deep it runs. But then everyone knows this is a fake news site run by a pharma shill, so, Mr. Bl;inking Box, while your so-called debunking may satisfy the un-thinking sheeple who've been taken in by the Pharma Overlords, those of us who are woke and can do our own research know what's what.</p> <p>Obviiously, Goop has been infiltrated by someone who leaked to the conspiracy that Gwynnie's personal astrologer had warned her she was on the hit list, and she had decided to hide out in Minneapolis just because no one would think she'd be there, and there are enough pretty blondes with a hip fashion sense in town that she wouldn't stand out. Also obviously, and fortunately, she picked up warning vibes from her Tuned Cosmic Energy Crystal Self Protection Amulet as she was about to board her private jet and stayed home instead. Unfortunately, obviously, the leaker didn't get that info to the hit man in time, and to the grunts of the conspiracy one holistic healer looks like another, so Damond was martyred instead.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363012&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9eLAsdhHwwIXo67yXfBGU39aciDrGObQxyGkJGCuJ9s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363012">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363013" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501127757"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't know where to put this, and I'm sorry for off-topic, but one of my best friends since second grade just killed himself.</p> <p>We always were two peas in a pod, and it runs deep in ways I will not document here; a little over a year ago he was doing very poorly, he had just tried to kill himself, had to quit grad school, moved in with his parents, etc. He had struck me lately as doing pretty well; he had gotten a job he liked a lot (he was working for an organization supporting homeless youth, he was always a giving, gentle, and generous soul) and had moved out. He was dating a girl. And so on.</p> <p>He texted me at like 5 am yesterday to say I love you, but I guess I didn't put two and two together.</p> <p>None of us saw it coming.</p> <p>If I had my druthers, I'd be out riding a horse in crazy directions and yelling and crying up at the sky. I don't even know how to deal.</p> <p>Perhaps the next time I see him <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-D6-PIG6x0">we won't need legs to stand.</a></p> <p>Right now I certainly wish for a loving G-d and a gentle afterlife.</p> <p>F***.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363013&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LcSTBC0KItm-cNk4iNwTh3uof9-GnM0kOkGnkMYr0Kw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 26 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363013">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363014" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501129442"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Perhaps I'll get another <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8SzG4FPyM">rose tattoo.</a> </p> <p>"With pride I'll wear it to the grave for you."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363014&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OGfY2To9UJMX8fhZaAGG0ijFIQk3_ADFI5EMpkoKOqo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363014">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363015" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501130286"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP,<br /> So sorry to hear this. Some people I've known have committed suicide, but never someone really close. Several years ago a woman my dad and I knew, jumped off our appartmentbuilding and killed herself that way. And a few years ago someone else (but no-one knew who, though I heard the rumor it was my dad, who is still very much alive to this day) also jumped.<br /> When I was in my 20s a friend of mine jumped from her window on the second floor and broke her elbow.</p> <p>But I think the regular people on this blog will try to give some support.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363015&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xSMkpHjMVwzsyE5PWNXSa6N-u7nKZFN7bm5_h-lB9GE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Renate (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363015">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363016" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501132691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So sorry to hear this.</p></blockquote> <p>Thanks.</p> <blockquote><p>Some people I’ve known have committed suicide, but never someone really close. </p></blockquote> <p>My dad shot himself when I was 11, so that was pretty awful.</p> <blockquote><p> Several years ago a woman my dad and I knew, jumped off our appartmentbuilding and killed herself that way.</p></blockquote> <p>I gave it (another) try myself a little over a year ago, but not that way. I won't go into details.</p> <p>Thanks for writing. I'm worn out from crying but I can't sleep. Maybe I'll take one of those Ambiens or something.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363016&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="V9hEQJBx7QV0Mk5aFfFkT40lbTOr4c7nL-l_mey_qrU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363016">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363017" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501135437"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: Words are all that I can send you. I hope these give you the comfort and support that they have given me since my wife's death last fall.<br /> .<br /><a href="https://youtu.be/ZfvS2LYbZLQ">https://youtu.be/ZfvS2LYbZLQ</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363017&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="77JF1iYjA8LO49SmWsJDL_S3lpKcfZhymOzuz7yzqPQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Opus (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363017">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363018" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501136805"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, JP. Many internet hugs to you. It's so tough when someone you love does that. All I can say is that we are here if you need us.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363018&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gZPYlKxgxwRI5_WmqMDJCg6E8lqvebTbmxEHkUwKQ_Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363018">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363019" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501142023"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP,</p> <p>I'm sorry, I know that it can hurt. I've been there too, having peoples close to me dying through suicide. Let me know if I can help.</p> <p>Alain</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363019&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jNo1JGU-bYhwXfzS-n7VhpEGJtRTjOD21XpggJT4G5Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363019">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363020" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501142053"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>help == staying alive that is.</p> <p>Alain</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363020&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SrqJG0IlyehhrNYKyIye1k4LWaxIAOiil-qnpEuUdko"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363020">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363021" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501143769"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: Oh, crap, I'm so sorry. I wish there was something I could do, but all I can offer is a virtual hug and a hope that you'll be good to yourself. Do what you need to do to stay afloat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363021&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D6a6m9OaAs_oa0z8AogWAC41xSg3n2Ng1NLR7guxT6s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363021">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363022" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501147988"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry is never enough. You have many friends here who've you have never met accept in virtual space. </p> <p>If you have any artistic native American friends have them make you a dream catcher. A dream catcher, catches and saves your good dreams and memories and fends off bad dreams and memories. Yes, it maybe all hocus-pocus but it is a tool to use to preserve the good parts of life and move the bad to the sidelines.</p> <p>Again sorry is never enough but remember that you have many friends here and I am sure elsewhere to help as well as they can,</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363022&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xGg8hVTWQguxISxkBfg28b24r7CYMEBflxUBwRtT0P0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363022">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363023" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501151664"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm to far away, as I'm to far away from most online friends, but I'm sure there are people here, who are closer and might be of some support. Virtual hugs are the only ones I can send your way. Stay strong and yes, I know it can be hard, but you are a loved member of this online community.<br /> It's hard to find the right words, but wish you all the best and hope to keep reading from you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363023&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yFIrAdKLKO-53LUMuPh2R95TaxlxuHM_dDV7W5aA-0I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Renate (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363023">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363024" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501160519"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP, I'm sorry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363024&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PEcqjXkAQ6ViE_zrU_rCllj39ooBKewRom4jn9xyFww"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363024">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363025" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501162130"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We always were two peas in a pod, and it runs deep in ways I will not document here; a little over a year ago he was doing very poorly, he had just tried to kill himself, had to quit grad school, moved in with his parents, etc. He had struck me lately as doing pretty well; he had gotten a job he liked a lot (he was working for an organization supporting homeless youth, he was always a giving, gentle, and generous soul) and had moved out. He was dating a girl. And so on.</p></blockquote> <p>Depression is brutal, Jamie, as you, I and others know. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfWpeTSJbpg">This</a> is not the case.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363025&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-wSnLBHP7FH9Sqr_63RfhcrYSG4tkPSVZeG-vu4ypbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363025">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363026" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501163809"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP:</p> <p>That is awful.</p> <p>Although there is not anything that you can do to change the situation there are things that you can do that either provide distraction, relief or tribute as well as other real world functions...</p> <p>when my father died although I saw it coming at me like a freight train ( I'm sure that Mr Zimmerman will forgive my appropriation of his metaphor) I IMMEDIATELY - within an hour or so ( before they closed up shop for the weekend)- set upon the task of informing people, agencies and companies about his demise ( he had pensions, stocks and bonds,insurance, lawyers etc) and someone took me up to the cliffs that night where people were gathered with candles because it was only three days after 9 11. I'm glad I did that</p> <p>For months I had a stack of papers and letters on a kitchen chair as my work proceeded with guidance from legal. Your tasks will of course vary from mine.</p> <p>There were some symbolic actions as well/</p> <p>You're an artist and writer I'm sure that inspiration will come</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363026&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_ZA0LxRDV01tEwkr7GUeK2rZWHfzP2PgvIfGBL5vVDI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363026">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363027" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501171451"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, everyone. Your kind words mean a lot.</p> <blockquote><p> I IMMEDIATELY – within an hour or so ( before they closed up shop for the weekend)- set upon the task of informing people, agencies and companies about his demise </p></blockquote> <p>Yeah, I've had to break the news to several school friends who got in touch with me to ask wtf happened. It's not fun, but I can only imagine it's nothing compared to what his mom is going through.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363027&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ogt0mJD6reEWeCHPh-l7k2qdHBbsHAokqRGvMloDElk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363027">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363028" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501191527"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"... but I can only imagine it’s nothing compared to what his mom is going through."</p> <p>No, it is not easy. We went through that in our extended family a few years ago. There were tears all around, especially when we helped the mom clear out the relative's possessions.</p> <p>I am so sorry for your loss. One of my kids has depression and I worry all the time for their mental health.</p> <p>Please take care of yourself, I know this is a trying time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363028&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yOBnjf4iNCIXJXeHRauV6vv8_ad2hTrkDv7qu6VY6ks"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363028">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363029" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501199080"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For JP: {{{hugs}}} and [[[<i>tissues</i>]]] as needed and/or wanted. There's more where those came from, too, as many as it may take.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363029&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0oQW31iXAEVDRv0H2blZH8L2Y0b7D76GjiTcfW77mvI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363029">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363030" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501212843"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP</p> <p>Please accept my condolences as well.</p> <blockquote><p>Yeah, I’ve had to break the news to several school friends who got in touch with me to ask wtf happened. It’s not fun, but I can only imagine it’s nothing compared to what his mom is going through.</p></blockquote> <p>It's cold comfort, but perhaps think of it this way: any news sharing, any social task you do with your friend's friends is something his mom does not have to do herself, thanks to you being here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363030&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HhLIsvNnbRo7fwuR_n9SvnHUpG0xFjbjopzqDH1xf-c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363030">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363031" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501224974"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'll add my condolences as well.</p> <p>I don't know you, but I've learned to care about you from your many sharings on this blog.</p> <p>When you reach those dark points, please remember there are those who care and reach out to someone.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363031&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zbT9KXs1vO7cf21vGdhiswNzSyX1OUUZuCPjAheMZig"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">squirrelelite (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363031">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363032" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501227202"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: May you be comforted among the mourners of Jerusalem and Zion. Baruch dayan emet.</p> <p>My deepest condolences. You must feel as though a part of you is missing. Take care of yourself, and ride that horse if you can.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363032&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HuSwY83fFARe8F_XyAtdeOLDGNYSp08z_QbJqVlS5QM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Interrobang (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363032">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363033" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501250123"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You must feel as though a part of you is missing.</p></blockquote> <p>Yeah. I keep going for the phone to call him. I was doing the same thing when another really close friend of mine (we met during my first year in college) died last year, but that was somehow different. I guess I sort of already knew by the time I found out; I couldn't get in touch with him, he wasn't responding to emails, etc., which was totally uncharacteristic. And then one day I called and his phone had been disconnected. I was asking mutual friends if they had heard anything; my friend Robin eventually came upon his obituary.</p> <p>Also, he was 80 years old and had been in increasingly poor health, so it... made some kind of sense, I guess.</p> <blockquote><p>Take care of yourself, and ride that horse if you can.</p></blockquote> <p>I'll do my best.</p> <p>Sadly, we are no longer significant land owners, and the cousin who had the horses moved to Idaho quite a while back. (Fittingly, she lives on a horse ranch; she married a ranch about two decades her senior, but hey, whatever floats your boat. She came home for a belated wedding reception (they eloped) a few weeks ago, and it was good to see her.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363033&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j-CISIWZtnLsujHPazvi_LWyFFyhA_bYs_I3AxSwVyQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363033">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363034" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501259385"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, JP, I can't imagine how that must feel. All the virtual hugs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363034&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SK6ouaqNiwNF4sWs8hEj3jBJuttlZ2oiJY-YI-ipO9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363034">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363035" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501292416"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't think you should call her a doctor unless she finished a recognised medical doctor degree or a doctorate of philosophy. I doubt she did because that is more effort than most pseudoscientists do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363035&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zuMkPsAHSr7JDM6wgQMfCrGvRgWU0i7MtBSURFgGkbs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Elwyn (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363035">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363036" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501294854"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks again for all the kind words and hugs and tissues, everybody.</p> <p>His family has said that they want to make it clear that nobody could have stopped him, he planned it that way; otherwise any one of us obviously would have. And he was suffering terribly for a long time; this was not his first attempt, or his second.</p> <p>His mom told me that I "challenged his soul and heart in many wonderful ways," and that he loved me, and that she misses me. (She and I actually grew pretty close as I grew up as well.)</p> <p>We were evenly matched, I guess you could say. He once said that I could look right through him; for a while he was paranoid that I could read his mind. (Like we would be on the phone, and I would start humming a song absent-mindedly, and he would say, "WTF, that song has been stuck in my head for a week.")</p> <p>We were not siblings, we were not lovers, we were something else.</p> <p>I have many vivid and intimate memories with Miles that I will not detail here.</p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB0RgMcB8zc">He will swim like a salmon.</a></p> <p>(I once threw myself in white water like the river under that bridge...)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363036&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MBUrrWlEBrMs2gPON6VNuJMh-SHek-HqRL6MAJZEGek"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363036">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363037" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501296082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That is a beautiful tribute, JP. And I know (because of who you are) that you told him similar things while he was still here to hear them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363037&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1l_xVagNf7TA6XIEeYC_P-fH_nvGYJOvPm7Z7_z1DuY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363037">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363038" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501313080"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Elwyn: are you referring to Justine Damond? If so, she did finish such a program: DVM. She was a veterinarian who graduated from the University of Sydney. So she did have every right to call herself "Doctor" even though she didn't work as a vet here in the US (I'm not sure if she even bothered to try and get a US license though she may have been studying for one), and it's perfectly appropriate to continue to refer to her that way.</p> <p>Sadly, vets are just as prone to woo as some medical doctors (eg Andrew Wakefield, Bob Sears, Jay Gordon).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363038&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YIqauHkhN2SEpR2CZGZw7E7v3Z7iTebBhWepXGXh-tU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363038">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363039" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501330794"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP, I have never known what it feels like to lose someone to suicide, but I do know what sorrow and grief, bereavement, regret,impotent anger, and true heartbreak feel like.<br /> Remember as you go through this that when you feel these things, they are the things you are supposed to feel. Don't let anyone tell that the things you are feeling are not deep enough, or too deep, or too prolonged. Something bad has happened in your life and it's appropriate that you feel bad.<br /> If you re in danger, it's okay to feel frightened. If you win the lottery or fall in love, no one has to tell you to be happy. Just do and feel what feels natural to you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363039&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EiaXoAKKQ4KRK0dxdUn0EH0ZBSkjBTWzYetclBWNwNk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363039">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363040" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501336595"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP - my horses still aren't broke yet, but if you were close I would invite you to visit them, anyhow (it would be an excuse, though, I would invite you even if I didn't have them). There are three Arabians, a friendly donkey, cows, Nubian goats, chickens, the dogs, the cats... a bit of a menagerie, and the wetlands are full again. </p> <p>My heart hurts for you, and everyone touched by his life.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363040&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8BTQ2ekxrC8PHDSJhGz0HRsJyrw076n9dFOrlK8crBM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363040">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363041" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501356565"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So GMO food is all so safe, eh? Even saying that doesn't make sense. What does one think happens to the herbicide that is sprayed in ever-increasing amounts onto RoundUp ready soy and corn crops?</p> <p>It is in the food. And it is in humans. We've known that for years. To treat evidence of GMO harming humans as woo is a statement of pseudoscience.<br /><a href="http://www.ewg.org/agmag/2014/04/extreme-levels-herbicide-roundup-found-food">http://www.ewg.org/agmag/2014/04/extreme-levels-herbicide-roundup-found…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363041&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZRzcXLxd0WSw16-cpbdDxp1SWlSr93WbhQZIM24cI6s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ScienceReviewer (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363041">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363042" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501369635"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Science "Reviewer", what does your comment have to do with the actual content of the article other than "GMO" was used once in an early paragraph?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363042&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="agv7HipOlXofE_AF0udfPWIjcUj_EABBqpZuJOJKiyA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363042">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363043" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501416549"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Science “Reviewer”, what does your comment have to do with the actual content of the article other than “GMO” was used once in an early paragraph?</p></blockquote> <p>But, but . . . <a href="https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/113-environmental-working-group/">the Environmental Working Group says so!</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363043&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="n9Ul7s51z2XyItkqQHNSi6oRaMt_xO8DB3CqjOFu04k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363043">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363044" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501422460"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>It is in the food. And it is in humans. We’ve known that for years. To treat evidence of GMO harming humans as woo is a statement of pseudoscience.</p></blockquote> <p>Where is the credible evidence of actual harm?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363044&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kxU1FOYQEm91AHnbtlHuFf6pXd0t7AaqcbI6barGL9g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Se Habla Espol (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363044">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363045" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501422781"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad: "But, but . . . the Environmental Working Group says so!"</p> <p>Based on that link, a group that totally failed freshman statistics. Just like "ScienceReviewer" failed basic reading comprehension.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363045&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BOn-t6kRLKFDnqb5s2fOuKDJSDC5yst9YUc4Hc4dlUU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363045">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363046" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501432060"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ScienceReviewer: "So GMO food is all so safe, eh? Even saying that doesn’t make sense."</p> <p>It makes sense to a great number of scientific organizations and agencies responsible for oversight of the food supply, most recently the National Academy of Sciences.</p> <p><a href="http://www.siquierotransgenicos.cl/2015/06/13/more-than-240-organizations-and-scientific-institutions-support-the-safety-of-gm-crops/">http://www.siquierotransgenicos.cl/2015/06/13/more-than-240-organizatio…</a></p> <p>"What does one think happens to the herbicide that is sprayed in ever-increasing amounts onto RoundUp ready soy and corn crops?"</p> <p>Actually, use of herbicides with concerning toxicity profiles has declined markedly since the advent of Roundup-Ready crops (Roundup itself has a relatively benign safety profile). Overall pesticide use has been reduced by GM technology.</p> <p><a href="http://theconversation.com/genetically-modified-crops-shrink-farmings-pesticide-footprint-3004">http://theconversation.com/genetically-modified-crops-shrink-farmings-p…</a></p> <p>I would much rather have a low parts-per-billion of glyphosate in food than considerably larger amounts of arsenic (commonly used in pre-modern agriculture) or the stuff sprayed on organic crops, which is by no means harmless to humans and the environment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363046&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Yi7hnwDJxf_W_6GkoKxC4GpMUvTEjU8ny7R73QduWZs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363046">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363047" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501447864"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP, I'd like to add my condolences.</p> <p>I had a close relative attempt suicide. For a long time afterwards they were in a negative space i couldn't reach or understand. But they finally escaped.</p> <p>I hope that you emerge from that yourself into a new life. </p> <p>Difficult to put into words.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363047&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DuEIpEJvCMo-TeQ5NDXiyBk5dJY-sDOwSn5PkzEU_ow"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jane Ostentatious (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363047">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363048" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501499469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The anti-GMO faithful have attacked the addition of Bt genes to crops.<br /> Bt is Bacillus thuringensis, a microorganism that produces a natural insecticide that happens to attack some of the insects that commonly prey on crops. Since the organism has been sprayed on crops for years and there is no evidence of harm to humans, other animals, or beneficial insects. It's a natural insect control that reduces the need for synthetic pesticides. But it's a GMO, so right off the bat it must be evil. The anti-GMO faithful don't even recognize the potential of GMOs to benefit farmers and consumers.<br /> I won't even go into the golden rice saga.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363048&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2_IX0bRTL6u2XRN09Vvji_31fvJ-ghfmEblZVlLIXno"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 31 Jul 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363048">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363049" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501842068"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP -- </p> <p>I'm sorry for many things regarding your loss, mostly my inability to voice my condolences until now. I take no comfort in realizing you certainly still need good thoughts and Internet hugs at this point, and for some time to come.</p> <p>May your good memories of Miles help you through this toughest phase of grief.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363049&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D0fE3hF_p9b0c0T1str0s93gLkPzN4nZzmSK18Abv8E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Scottynuke (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363049">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363050" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1501993038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP. He will be with you. Always. He will appear whenever you have need for him. And often when you don't. Welcome him. He is now a part of you and those who loved him. Memory is a magic place. Love and www's hugs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363050&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pupVjRmN7bMfrgiCE3RVAeKNiXilmf6FiEW6beXE3XM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bert (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363050">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363051" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502038543"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whatever the toxicity of glyphosate may be, that's not an issue with the safety of GMO food per se. Farmers used plenty of RoundUp with conventional seed crops, and if they were using so much RoundUp now that it posed a safety issue in the food, the answer would be to use less RoundUp and suffer the consequences in reduced yields, regardless of whether the crops were genetically modified or not.</p> <p>That said, in practice the safety of GMO seed is so intertwined with other aspects of agribusiness practice that a rational person may choose to avoid GMO products on the basis of those other practices operating around the principle of GMO technology. This would be more like the old NFW lettuce boycotts. There was no objection to the lettuce as lettuce, just the means of its production.</p> <p>I'm convinced GMO based foods are safe to eat, and make no effort to avoid them. But when the food I like has a 'No GMOs' label, I don't mourn, either, because I have real concerns about some of the agribusiness practices within which Monsanto has placed GMO production, or have just been exacerbated by the GMO trend. For example, an increase in monopolization has some with the move to GMO seed, and "the price of an 80,000-kernel bag of seed corn rose to $300 from $80 in the last decade, as the companies that produced them consolidated." Yield increases or not, the production of commodity crops now so exceeds demand that prices have been ih sharp decline, and one farmer told the NYT "he expects to lose $100 an acre this year." Consolidation in the pesticide business may have environmental consequences as well, including the spread of glyphosate into bee habitats being one of the suspected culprits in colony collapse.</p> <p>Has anyone else seen the TV ads recruiting plaintiffs for a class action suit on behalf of farm workers and others with heavy glyphosate exposure who have developed non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and other cancers? The NYT had a story a couple months ago about Monsatan engaging in some sketchy cover-up-ish doings about glyphosate and cancer. (Afaik, this is just a concern for the folks who work with the stuff, not consumers.) About 9th months ago the NYT also reported "genetic modification in the United States and Canada has not accelerated increases in crop yields or led to an overall reduction in the use of chemical pesticides." </p> <p>Of course, none of these legitimate issues justify hysterical fear of GMO technology per se. It would be a shame for this hysteria to quash prospects for research in the GMO field. However, it would likely be much better for science if that research was publicly funded, rather than guided by the business agendas of Monsanto and Syngenta.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363051&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DK0w5zjbR8S0s5dgXyycS2o-Fej-qsl4SxeXrwSLtvw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363051">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363052" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502051459"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>including the spread of glyphosate into bee habitats being one of the suspected culprits in colony collapse</p></blockquote> <p>You're not going to slip that one is so esily, sir. Let's have the "suspected by whom" part.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363052&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dTT-EHo02VbK7LmTBnbnosIlVOlo19FOhvfHBXMtzk4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363052">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363053" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502053617"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>sadmar: "The NYT had a story a couple months ago about..."</p> <p>While I love the New York Times, especially for Science Tuesdays, you cannot take every article at face value. They printed an editorial which was a total hack job about Dr. Kevin Folta:<br /><a href="http://scibabe.com/folta/">http://scibabe.com/folta/</a></p> <p>And while I really hate that they hired Bret Stephens, I am very glad they have both Paul Krugman and Nicholas Kristof on their editorial pages. Plus I really love that they have Science Fridays and Karl Zimmer.</p> <p>And yeah, even if it is in the NY Times... check PubMed. Despite the hatchet job on Folta written by Paul Thacker and Charles Seife, which was retracted (but it was out there, none the less):<br /><a href="http://retractionwatch.com/2015/08/24/following-criticism-plos-removes-blog-defending-scrutiny-of-science/">http://retractionwatch.com/2015/08/24/following-criticism-plos-removes-…</a></p> <p>And I really liked Seife's <i>Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea</i> book.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363053&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6jYL7Nngu8HXXroPa7LakCMWMA1Z2OGbBk9_8XKSe7o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363053">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363054" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502066848"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Narad:</p> <p>By the leading bee entomologist in the country, Maria Spivak of the U of Minnesota:</p> <blockquote><p>We grow Roundup-ready plants, which allows us to apply a lot of herbicide to kill of all the weedy flowers in the field without killing the crop. But many of those weedy plants have flowers that bees depend on for their food, and so the dramatic increase in herbicides is killing off the food for bees in many locations.</p></blockquote> <p>Spivak is a careful and respected researcher, and she doesn't suggest RoundUp is <i>the</i> cause of colony collapse, just one of a number of factors that <i>may,/i&gt; be involved.</i></p> <p>@ Chris:</p> <p>I know what goes into news sausages and how the contents get processed, so I'm the last person to take <i>any,/i&gt; news article at face value, including both the NYT story (not an editoeial btw) on Folta and Science Babe's response. As for the NYT, yeah they have Paul Krugman, who's great, but they had Judith Miller who's... not. I don't regularly read the NYT. The link just came up when I Googled "glyphosate cancer' after forgetting which type of cancer was cited in those class-action ads. I forgot to paste it in the comment: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/jq3fsc8">http://tinyurl.com/jq3fsc8</a><br /> I should have put quotes around 'Monsatan' as i didn't mean that seriously. But I lived in the farm belt most of my life, and had issues with Monsanto long before I ever heard of GMOs or Kevin Folta. By "issues" here I mean unsettled questions, 'maybe's not 'definitely's. While I am convinced the GMO technology yields safe foods, I remain skeptical that Monsanto is worthy of un-critical embrace. And I'd suggest that anyone who buys into the "Monsanto GMOs will feed all the starving people!" propaganda doesn't know squat about farming. Afaik, corn and soy are the big GMO crops, and only a fraction of those are grown for consumption by humans, and even less if you exclude the corn sweetener in soft drinks.</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363054&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6s0FwgiSMdNuRDENTjSfe0rrFWqqCZkq4D47wRqyF4A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363054">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363055" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502088565"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Sadmar</p> <blockquote><p>including the spread of glyphosate into bee habitats being one of the suspected culprits in colony collapse.</p></blockquote> <p>Insecticides (rather than herbicides), parasites and viruses are equally, if not more likely suspects. At least some data is starting to creep out with insecticides.<br /> The list of potential culprits is so long, we are veering into "usual suspects" lists.</p> <blockquote><p>It would be a shame for this hysteria to quash prospects for research in the GMO field. However, it would likely be much better for science if that research was publicly funded, rather than guided by the business agendas of Monsanto and Syngenta.</p></blockquote> <p>My boss has a GMO plant on a shelf in his former public lab. With no realistic prospect for field testing, due to ambient public reluctance, the public-funded project was abandoned.<br /> Self-righteous hysterical tree-huggers devastated a field of GMO grapewine plants, tested by the INRA (French agency for agronomic research) for resistance against parasites. The activists were afraid of gene dispersion, even though the grapewines were cultivated in a confined space and anything leaving the field was scheduled for incineration. The public-funded project was abandoned.<br /> A similar group of tree-huggers did an encore in a field of GMO cereals, tearing all plants from the ground. Except that, those were not GMO cereals, after all. Oops. Well, better safe than sorry, eh? I don't know if the farmer was compensated in any way. Or if any of the GMO vigilantes faced jail time.<br /> That was just in my country. The list can go on.</p> <p>All of this was a decade ago. The quashing has already been done, leaving the six Big Seed producers in a situation of monopoly regarding GMOs.</p> <p>Anti-GMO activists - and the public who is following them - are heavily against public-funded research on GMOs, because 1 - don't you know that academic scientists are all sellouts to Big Agro, and 2 - allowing the production of GMO organisms by public-funded labs is only going to provide a Troyan horse for Monsantan to bring its own seeds into Europe's markets.</p> <p>tl;dr: your sentiments are nice, but I'm afraid they are almost two decades too late.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363055&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Cv85y0CCU4zvWb4GC-yVhlT-RgYJaRVmrcSjXfspFJ4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363055">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363056" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502094701"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Hellianthus</p> <p>As I understand Spivak, it's less a case of culprits being more or less likely but more one of culprits being more or less problematic, that is making larger or smaller contributions to something like a 'perfect storm'. So yes, neonicitinoid insecticides are getting more attention than herbicides.</p> <p>Here in the US, using the epithet "tree hugger" aligns you with a very nasty anti-environmentalist politics, the sort of folks who scoff at AGW, and would dismantle the EPA. Maybe you could just call the hysterical anti-GMO vigilantes " hysterical anti-GMO vigilantes"?</p> <p>I said it would be better for science if GMO research was publicly funded, not that that was likely to happen. Single-payer national health insurance isn't likely to happen either, but that not going to keep me from saying it's the right thing to do. Oser lutter, oser vaincre... or something like that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363056&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NMtFjnd4zQlGHGrtz_R3YdFHV7fSUqMZxupX92znrGE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363056">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1363057" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502097457"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Here in the US, using the epithet “tree hugger” aligns you with a very nasty anti-environmentalist politics, the sort of folks who scoff at AGW, and would dismantle the EPA.</p></blockquote> <p>I'd second that. When I read the bit about "hysterical tree-huggers," my first reaction was, "WTF? Is Helanthus a right-wing anti-environmentalist nutjob? How did I miss this?" Yes, that's what using that term signals here in the US.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363057&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xKld9nW9GhTnZ9EQ-nnVH12h9MoRFJ-I7QB2BOrBdUQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363057">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1363056#comment-1363056" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363058" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502100840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>sadmar: "...it would likely be much better for science if (GMO) research was publicly funded, rather than guided by the business agendas of Monsanto and Syngenta."</p> <p>This is like saying that vaccine research lacks credibility since it's beholden to Big Pharma.</p> <p>Fact: there is a vast amount of GM food research that's been conducted by independent researchers, covering topics including basic genetics, safety and feeding studies (according to one estimate I've seen, such independent papers are close to a thousand in number). One recent study:</p> <p>"...an article was published in the Journal of Animal Science, that reviewed the impact of genetically engineered (GMO) feedstuffs on livestock. Given that livestock consume 70-90% of genetically engineered foods, it’s like a giant clinical trial of GMO foods. Geneticist Alison Van Eenennaam and research assistant Amy E. Young, both from the University of California-Davis, systematically analyzed nearly 29 years of livestock productivity and health data prior to and after the introduction of genetically engineered animal feed.</p> <p>The study examined data from nearly 100 billion livestock (which represents trillions of GMO meals), a robust amount of data by any classification. According to the authors,</p> <p>'Several recent comprehensive reviews from various authors summarize the results of food-producing animal feeding studies with the current generation of GE crops. Studies have been conducted with a variety of food-producing animals including sheep, goats, pigs, chickens, quail, cattle, water buffalo, rabbits and fish fed different GE crop varieties. The results have consistently revealed that the performance and health of GE-fed animals were comparable with those fed near isogenic non-GE lines and commercial varieties .'"</p> <p><a href="https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/trillions-data-points-gmo-foods-safe-no-debate/">https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/trillions-data-…</a></p> <p>sadmar: ""I’m convinced GMO based foods are safe to eat, and make no effort to avoid them. But when the food I like has a ‘No GMOs’ label, I don’t mourn, either, because I have real concerns about some of the agribusiness practices within which Monsanto has placed GMO production, or have just been exacerbated by the GMO trend."</p> <p>Beyond the questionable claims made in sadmar's post (such as the "monopoly" allegation, which disregards the popularity of selected few high-yielding hybrids before GMO seed ever entered the marketplace), I have to wonder about political justifications for GMO food labeling. I don't recall demands for mandatory labeling of non-UFW lettuce back in the day. Anti-GMOer angst over labeling seems largely driven by Luddite fears and the kind of crap health reporting we see from NN, and only secondarily as a protest about corporate practices (if that was so important, these folks could just stick to organic veggies from their local farmer's market or co-op and bypass the whole Corporate Food System). </p> <p>Sure, buy food labeled organic non-GMO gluten-free and packed by earth-friendly Spirit Children if one prefers, just don't demand that everyone kowtow to one's pet cause.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363058&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cWxMX8Q3TYnxVkZU_x6PbD26EBiz9NjDI3PCb-pYJjY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363058">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363059" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502105295"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I trust Orac will not make agreeing with me on anything a habit! :-) :-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363059&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Zrcgp8W7SCl1gBvNz_cyafFDKbT0lRLCLgDjTArKV2U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363059">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363060" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502107422"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry about the loaded term.</p> <p>I really stopped trusting political environmentalists a while ago.</p> <p>Let me put this the other way: in my country, the anti-GMO, along José Bové and Séralini, won. GMO is non-debatable.<br /> And there was nothing about being environmentalist about that.</p> <p>I'll try another time, for emphasis: I'm talking about people who decide to go in some poor farmer's field and cut or rip out whatever plant he was growing, on suspicion of these plants being GMO.<br /> I'm deadly fearful of mobs on a witch hunt, and that's exactly that these people are.<br /> Could I use the term "vandals", instead?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363060&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2pCee6TJcLPSi3IOZpe6JakphdHN9mtG54J3Hnt20Do"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363060">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363061" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502108150"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>After allowing my head to cool down, I further realize it was a really loaded term. I could have written something better.</p> <p>For me, anti-GMO activists are false ecologists, hence my scorn. For all their fight, all they managed to do is to make Monsanto &amp; Bayer &amp; Syngeta stronger.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363061&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4NPK8gwqhQdQIrYUExdAFoIs8By6oqL7MDzPgNM5jo4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363061">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363062" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502108381"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmm. What do 'ghost writing' mean? </p> <p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/business/monsantos-sway-over-research-is-seen-in-disclosed-emails.html">https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/01/business/monsantos-sway-over-researc…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363062&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5taUbrGi-oSqMRDj0G57zCDVLRoeL_yvXGztuMJours"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363062">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363063" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502115548"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Improper (and stupid) as it was for Henry Miller not to disclose assistance from Monsanto in writing his article for Forbes, it was an opinion piece - not research. The IARC position statement on glyphosate's alleged carcinogenicity has been roundly criticized in the scientific community, and it was recently disclosed that a leading scientist on the IARC panel failed to disclose key research evidence to his colleagues prior to their releasing the statement - evidence that glyphosate was _not_ a carcinogen.</p> <p><a href="http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/06/monsanto-roundup-glyphosate-cancer-who/">http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2017/06/monsanto-roundup-glyphos…</a></p> <p>Danny Hakim's N.Y. Times' article also attempts to portray the editor of Food and Chemical Toxicology as a Monsanto shill for the journal's having retracted a study purporting to show that GM feed caused cancer in rats. What Hakim doesn't mention is that was the infamously bad Seralini study, which has been widely refuted and overwhelmingly condemned for poor methodology and unsupportable conclusions.</p> <p><a href="https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/121128">https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/press/news/121128</a></p> <p>Hakim has a known anti-GMO agenda. That doesn't disqualify him from writing for the Times, but it also shouldn't excuse his distortions and omission of crucial facts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363063&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9OFtNf89V5tqiCQc_E47O2vyiNP_h_VV3Vy9UA0-Gbw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363063">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363064" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502173270"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry to interrupt the GMO flow, but thanks again very much, everyone, for all the kind words and condolences (especially the new folks I haven't thanked yet); it really does mean a lot.</p> <p>Current mood is <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs5wIJlUK1o">this.</a> </p> <p>"I'm taking the cure so I can be quiet<br /> Whenever I want."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363064&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c0i-cK-ZYv3k9owUltnCmkbLGpazG_x7ahZ3oziSAS0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 08 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363064">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363065" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502660082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This conspiracy theory reminds me a lot of the infamous "Clinton Death List" conspiracy theory. If you actually trace back the deaths (As I did with the Clintons) it turns out most of them are accidents, ordinary natural causes deaths or suicides. </p> <p>For JP : I am sorry for your loss. My condolences.<br /> About GMOs : The Anti-GMO crowd is every bit as evidence free as the anti-AGW crowd.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363065&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nowDwf_QJ_1dp1L5BQ3DOL4Fj4drdu66pQd5Bnb3Lc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DLC (not verified)</span> on 13 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363065">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363066" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502732685"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>BOTTOM LINE - Monsanto has long noted that independent scientists have vouched for the safety of its Roundup herbicide. Court data show its employees edited some of those reviews.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-09/monsanto-was-its-own-ghostwriter-for-some-safety-reviews">https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-09/monsanto-was-its-own…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363066&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="scAWc67WkBGxhHb0fvJK7Ic5TvJyocPVahCb3YQnOtQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim (not verified)</span> on 14 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363066">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363067" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502740197"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What's the problems with Roundup? It's safe and effective when used as directed, and a pint will last me 2 or 3 years, maybe 4 if we don't get much rain, so it's cheap, too. It's good stuff.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363067&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ReOLO_h5OFzklwzIZWBIMyXNbttNjM9vyivJqHuCGPI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 14 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363067">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1363068" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1502744875"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suspect Tim is actually Travis.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1363068&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5zGVb5PXSBx-ZelIi0rcASsqD9haXc2WoQiN3oLoAwU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 14 Aug 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1363068">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2017/07/25/pharma-hit-squads-vs-holistic-healers-the-resurrection%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:38:52 +0000 oracknows 22593 at https://scienceblogs.com The antivaccine conspiracy theory narrative: You want it darker? https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/03/16/the-antivaccine-conspiracy-theory-narrative-you-want-it-darker <span>The antivaccine conspiracy theory narrative: You want it darker?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Some of you might have been wondering just WTF has been going on here on the old blog, given the relative paucity of posts over the last week and the "reruns" from the distant past that I've been posting. I address this question because I realize that not everyone reads the comments and it's quite possible some of you might have missed it, but here in Michigan we had an enormous windstorm last Wednesday that knocked out power to 800,000+ people. Unfortunately, Orac was one of them. True, we did get the power back over the weekend, but then, in a cruel twist of fate, we lot power again on Tuesday, which is why there was no post yesterday. Even better, the power came back Wednesday morning as I was getting ready to head to Seattle to attend the yearly Society of Surgical Oncology meeting, only to die after about an hour. So that's three—count 'em—three times we've lost power in the last week, during a time period when we've had the coldest weather in March I can remember in a long time. I tell ya, I just can't win this week.</p> <p>Now that that's out of the way, I can't help but make the observation that stuff happened while I was (mostly) offline. One thing that caught my eye is that <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-anti-vaccine-narrative-just-gets-darker/">Steve Novella discovered the wonder of delusion that is Kent Heckenlively</a>. You remember Kent, don't you? I first encountered him when he was a member of the merry band of pseudoscience-worshiping antivaccine warriors over at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism. What attracted my attention was how what he did to his daughter to try to "cure" her of her autism opened my eyes wider to the lengths to which antivaccine parents will go and how far into quackery they will delve in order to "save" their child. In Heckenlively's case, he hit is daughter's grandparents up for $15,000 to take her to a dubious stem cell clinic in Costa Rica for "stem cell" injections directly into her cerebrospinal fluid. Not surprisingly, it didn't work.</p> <!--more--> <p>Let's just put it this way. Heckenlively is so far off the ranch that even that apparently even that wretched hive of antivaccine scum and quackery that is AoA is insufficiently conspiratorial. I can only conclude that because I don't recall the last time I saw him post anything at AoA and, more importantly, he how appears to have found a home with Patrick "Tim" Bolen, a.k.a. Hulda Clark's pit bull, at least back when Hulda Clark was still alive. Clark, if you remember, proclaimed that all cancer and AIDS were caused by a liver fluke and could be cured using her "zapper," which always reminded me of a Scientology E-meter. In any case, I looked it up, and Heckenlively hasn't appeared in AoA since last July, while since June he's been tearing up <a href="http://bolenreport.com/category/ourauthors/kent-heckenlively-jd/" rel="nofollow">The Bolen Report</a>. This is <em>not</em> a step up. When next we see Heckenlively switch jobs, I fear we'll see him heading to the next logical place, Mike Adams' Natural News. Really, it's where he belongs. But I digress.</p> <p>In any case, Steve used a post by Heckenlively published earlier this week entitled <a href="http://bolenreport.com/vaccine-free-world/" rel="nofollow">A Vaccine-Free World?…</a> to note that the <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-anti-vaccine-narrative-just-gets-darker/">antivaccine narrative just gets darker</a>. And he's right (as usual). The antivaccine narrative has been steadily getting darker and darker in the 12 years that I've been actively paying attention and writing about it. However, seeing Steve's post, I couldn't help but channel Leonard Cohen's last album before he died, which was entitled <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Want_It_Darker">You Want It Darker</a>. Remember, this is an album made by a man who knew he was going to die soon.</p> <p>Yes, antivaccine activists do want it darker. Also remember that in any story (and that's what conspiracy theories are, in essence) there is a victim, a hero, and a villain. Guess who plays these roles in Heckenlively's fantasies? You'll see in a moment. In the meantime, join him on his magical mystery tour of his dark fantasy:</p> <blockquote><p>Remove all vaccines from usage for a period of five years, study them in laboratories and in animal models, then create a system to slowly introduce one vaccine at a time and monitor for long-term effects before even thinking of introducing a second vaccine. Oh, and while that’s being done, immediately REPEAL AND DON’T REPLACE the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act which currently gives pharmaceutical companies COMPLETE IMMUNITY FOR HARM DONE BY THEIR PRODUCTS.</p></blockquote> <p>Steve didn't really dwell much on this part of Heckenlively's screed, but I want to. What it demonstrates is just how fully deluded he is. He has utterly and literally no clue just how massively unethical such a plan would be. The reasons are numerous and range from the incredibly simple to grasp to more complicated. Basically, it is unethical to perform an experiment in which children are intentionally left unprotected from common dieseases that can be prevented by vaccines. Worse, Heckenlively's plan would take not just years, but likely decades, during which diseases like measles, mumps, diptheria, and pertussis would predictably come roaring back. After all, that's what happened in the UK when Andrew Wakefield's campaign to discredit the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine, aided and abetted by the complicit tabloid press, resulted in plunging vaccine rates. Measles, once eliminated, came roaring back. The same thing happened in Europe. Thus far in the US we've managed to avoid a resurgence as enormous, but there are worrisome signs that that could change, such as the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/15/the-disneyland-measles-outbreak-continues-apace/">Disneyland measles outbreak</a> and declining vaccine uptake due to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Want_It_Darker">increasing numbers of personal belief exemptions to school vaccine mandates</a> in Texas. Add to that other outbreaks, such as in my very own state, and it's hard not to conclude that herd immunity is hanging by a thread in too many places where critical masses of the vaccine-averse and antivaccine reside. There are, of course, many other problems besides ethics with Heckenlively's idea, not the least of which is how utterly expensive and impractical it would be.</p> <p>Of course, such an experiment might—I repeat, might—be justified if there were massive and overwhelming evidence that the current vaccine schedule was causing horrible harm to huge numbers of children. The evidence, however, would have to be so obvious and irrefutable that not even Paul Offit or I could deny it. Even then, under such a circumstance, we would still want to figure out a strategy to determine what is causing harm that wouldn't inevitably result in wholesale outbreaks of infectious disease. Of course, if you're Kent Heckenlively, you believe the situation is just that apocalyptic and the evidence that irrefutable. That's where he and much of the antivaccine movement diverge with reality. They express sentiments like this:</p> <blockquote><p>We know that vaccines are causing MASSIVE DAMAGE to the health of our young and contributing to the massive epidemics of chronic diseases among those of working age and the dementias of the elderly. Don’t believe me? Just read the vaccine safety inserts. I hear Alex Jones and InfoWars are going to be doing their own series of special reports on THE VACCINE SIDE EFFECTS LISTED ON THE INSERTS. (That’s just the things the pharmaceutical companies admit!) I’m looking forward to that. Worried that it’s “Fake News?” That’s easy to remedy. If you have any questions, just go to your local pharmacy and ask for the inserts yourself.</p></blockquote> <p>Ah, yes, the appeal to the package insert. We should figure out a name for this logical fallacy, if someone hasn't already. Oh, yes, the ancient reptilian <a href="http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-package-inserts-debunking-myths/">Skeptical Raptor already has</a>, argumentum ad package insert. Oh, wait, <a href="http://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vani-hari-a-k-a-the-food-babe-finally-responds-to-critics/">that was me</a>. (We'll just have to share the credit.) In any case, as Steve, and the Raptor (and I) have pointed out, package inserts are <em>legal</em> documents, <em>not</em> scientific documents. They are designed to cover the asses of the pharmaceutical companies, not to dispassionately list adverse events definitely linked to the vaccine or drug. Pretty much every bad thing that happened to any participant in the clinical trials leading to the licensing of a vaccine or drug is listed, whether that bad thing had anything to do with the vaccine or drug or not. Heckenlively, who loudly proclaims his JD (even though he doesn't practice law), should know that, but instead he says things like " In the legal system, such admissions are considered “clues.” Um, no. such "admissions" are there for one purpose and one purpose only, to protect the pharmaceutical company.</p> <p>Of course, in Heckenlively's world, the nonexistent horror he describes is not due to negligence. Well, that's not entirely true. There is negligence there, or at least there was to begin with. However, after that, the reason this "suffering" continues is because "They" want it to. Remember what I said about every story needing a victim, a hero, and a villain? Well, the victims in Heckenlively's world are the children. Clearly, the villain is...well, it's not always clear exactly who is the villain, but it is always some combination of pharmaceutical companies, the government (usually the CDC, but often the FDA as well), state medical authorities, politicians who support school vaccine mandates (because, in Heckenlively's view, they are in the pockets of big pharma, natch), and the medical profession, all of whom deny based on science his evidence- and science-free beliefs that vaccines are horrifically harmful. Guess whom, that leaves as the hero? You guessed it:</p> <p> </p> <blockquote><p>But I thought when people like me raised our voices and claimed vaccines were harming the human species, that somebody in a position of authority in government or science would do some proper investigation. However, as I researched my book, INOCULATED: How Science Lost its Soul I had to confront some dark truths about the corruption of the American body politic. No matter how cynical I was about whether people in our government cared about children with autism, and the wholesale destruction of our species by vaccines, I wasn’t cynical enough. We tried to work with our health authorities. They turned a deaf ear.</p></blockquote> <p> </p> <p>So the battle lines are drawn. I did, however, forget one other villain, namely the press. After all, the press has increasingly (and correctly) treating antivaccine activists like Heckenlively as the fringe loons they are. So they must be paid off. I just saw a particularly telling article on that score, although it was not by Heckenlively. Rather, it was by Anne Dachel, published over at AoA, and entitled, <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/03/julia-belluz-is-cdcs-company-gal.html" rel="nofollow">Dachel Wake Up: Julia Belluz Is CDC's Company Gal!</a>, which basically accuses an excellent journalist who's done some great stories on health and medicine as being in the pockets of pharma, along with the CDC. Because in Heckenlively's world, no one could ever be pro-vaccine unless it was because he or she was in the pocket of big pharma.</p> <p>One key aspect of these dark conspiracy theories is the "hidden knowledge" narrative. Yes, the CDC, FDA, big pharma, and medical-industrial complex might have bamboozled the sheeple, but there are people who know, man. They've WOKEN UP (to borrow Heckenlively's all-caps):</p> <p> </p> <blockquote><p>I don’t care how much the mainstream media, funded by the waning pharmaceutical dollars continues to whip up hysteria, it won’t work. We all see the casualties in our schools, in our homes, and on our streets. A brutal reckoning is coming for those who have allowed this harm to children to take place.</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p> </p></blockquote> <p>Now do you see where all the comparisons with Nazis, the Holocaust, and death camps come from? People like Heckenlively truly believe that vaccines are so evil and those who promote them even more so. But Heckenlively imagines himself to be so much better than that. Elsewhere he as written about <a href="http://bolenreport.com/coming-war-aftermath/" rel="nofollow&gt;The Coming War And Its Aftermath...&lt;/a&gt;, where he compares himself to Nelson Mandela, while invoking Galileo (of course!):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#10;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#10;And so I am left with Mandela’s wisdom. Do I have anger and bitterness to me about the eighteen years I have been trapped in the prison of my daughter’s autism? Without a doubt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#10;&lt;p&gt;But I believe that this era of injustice is coming to an end. The enemies of truth never fight so viciously as when they understand they are very close to losing. The legal fight over SB 277 looks very promising to me, and I am aware of how even in the midst of this scientific reign of terror, some very brave researchers are coming close to solving this problem and recovering our children. I do not believe we will be in our prisons very much longer.&lt;br /&gt;&#10;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&#10;&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, many of the sheeple reject Heckenlively's message of salvation (and, make no mistake, he is peddling what is basically a religious narrative of contamination, sin, and salvation, gussied up as an antivaccine narrative). Particularly hilarious is a post of his in which he pleads with his friends, ">I’m Not Asking You to Smoke Crystal Meth . . . I Just Want You to Watch a Documentary</a>." (Having seen the movie, I'll take the crystal meth, please. It couldn't be any worse.) The movie to which he is referring, of course, is <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/07/18/in-which-andrew-wakefield-and-del-bigtrees-antivaccine-documentary-vaxxed-is-reviewed-with-insolence/">VAXXED</a>, Andrew Wakefield's antivaccine propaganda film disguised as a documentary. Hilariously, his friends were...less than receptive.</p> <blockquote><p>I have been astounded by the response of some long-time friends who when I say, “Hey, there’s this documentary about a whistle-blower at the CDC and the cover-up of the link between vaccines and autism, do you want to come and see it?” They act like I’m denying the existence of God. No, scratch that. If I asked them to come to a movie about an atheist, I’d get a better response. In very poignant emails back to me they have said that they will not even put at risk their “fugitive and cloistered virtue” (to steal from the poet, John Milton) by exposing themselves to the possibility that the government is lying to them.</p></blockquote> <p>Or maybe they recognize a ridiculous conspiracy theory when they see one. Kent has some smart friends. I wonder why they're friends with Ken, given that he must harangue them frequently about his antivaccine beliefs. Of course, the most important part of the conspiracy theory is hope and how it allows people like Heckenlively to view themselves as heroic crusaders against evil. For example, I've cited how Heckenlively shares one characteristic with me. (Embarrassing, but true.) He really, really loves J.R.R. Tolkien's <em>The Lord of the Rings</em>, so much so that <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/07/plague-an-alliance-of-the-free-peoples-of-middle-earth.html" rel="nofollow">he actually wrote this</a> back when he was still a regular at AoA:</p> <blockquote><p>When I watch I imagine myself as Aragorn, taking the Dimholt Road under the mountain, clutching the sword, Anduril, Flame of the West, offering a deal to the souls of the dishonored dead if they would join me in battle. I picture myself as Aragon, astride my horse in front of the Black Gate, telling my troops, <em>I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight!</em> Then I jump off my horse, and with the setting sun behind me, a reckless, almost manic glint in my eye and a crooked grin, I am first to charge into the enemy army.</p></blockquote> <p>This is, of course, one of my favorite scenes from both <em>The Lord of the Rings</em> books and the movies. In it, the last heir of Isildur, Aragorn, had brought his forces to the Black Gate of Mordor to challenge the Dark Lord Sauron to battle, not with any hope of victory, but as a diversion to distract the Eye of Sauron long enough to allow the hobbits Frodo and Sam to cross Mordor and reach Mount Doom, there to destroy the One Ring, the source of Sauron’s evil power, by throwing it into the molten lava in the Crack of Doom. Aragorn, Gandalf, and his companions fully expected to die in the effort, and it looked as though they would do just that after hordes of orcs issued forth from the Black Gate and the battle was joined. They were saved because Sam and Frodo did reach Mount Doom and the ring was destroyed, thus destroying Sauron’s power and causing his armies to flee, before the hordes of Sauron’s orc’s could destroy Aragorn and his vastly outnumbered force. The point, of course, is that Heckenlively views himself (or fantasizes himself) as a heroic figure from the world of epic fantasy like Aragorn. Walter Mitty-like, Heckenlively fantasizes that it’s him leading a doomed mission to the very Black Gate of Mordor, knowing he’s unlikely to come out of it alive, in order to give others the chance to defeat the great evil against which he strives.</p> <p>And, have no doubt, victory is the <a href="http://bolenreport.com/how-the-vaccine-autism-war-ends/">only outcome that Heckenlively envisions</a>:</p> <blockquote><p><strong>Here’s how the Vaccine-Autism war ends.</strong> <strong>We win. They lose.</strong> The memory of what they have done will cling to their children for generations to come, like the children of Nazi war criminals who were horrified by the crimes of their parents. And what about us? We were the resistance. We were the freedom-fighters. We fought to protect the future. And we will tell our stories.</p></blockquote> <p>He even <a href="http://bolenreport.com/vaxxers-lose-f-minds/" rel="nofollow">fantasizes about pro-vaccine activists</a> as French nobility dragged to the guillotine to have their heads lopped off during the French Revolution and hopes for some "reasonable" (i.e., compliant") provaccine advocates, whom he contrasts to the French aristocracy before the Revolution:</p> <blockquote><p>The white majority in South Africa knew they were losing to Nelson Mandela’s call for justice and they took actions which averted a catastrophe. Even though the British ended up fighting a war with us, there were voices in England who thought that the whole affair was utter madness. Eventually, their views prevailed. Hell, even some Nazis could see where Hitler was leading them after D-Day and tried to change things by blowing him up.</p></blockquote> <p>He's even offered pro-vaxxers a way out in a post entitled, <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/02/i-will-accept-your-surrender.html" rel="nofollow">I Will Accept Your Surrender</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>I've made this offer several times in the past. I'm making it again. I am willing to accept the surrender of those who have perverted science, harmed a generation of children, and even as of this late date are willing to harm more children so as to not to upset the balance of their lives. It must be truly troubling for those who continue to fuel the epidemic of autism and other chronic diseases that even though you still maintain the trust of those in the media, the scientific community, and most of the people in politics, an amazing 39% of the population in a recent Fox News poll believe parents need to have the right to decide how and whether their children can be vaccinated. You see, I've interviewed enough scientists that I understand the world in which you operate. Although you tremble in fear when you confront the dark questions at the heart of why so many children and adults suffer with chronic diseases, you feel quite comfortable making others cower as has been done to you. It must really annoy you when you fulminate against us as if we were some extremist group, that somehow you can't get the rest of the population to fully buy it.</p></blockquote> <p>I politely decline to surrender. Writing about this, I realize that perhaps Steve dwelt a bit too much on the darkness in the antivaccine conspiracy theory. Yes, I've referred to the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/25/the-central-conspiracy-theory-of-the-antivaccine-movement/">central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement</a> as the idea that, somewhere in the CDC, big pharma, and the medical profession, "They" know that vaccines cause autism and all sorts of harm to children. That's why the whole "CDC whistleblower" conspiracy theory was so powerful. It tapped deep into the fantasies of antivaxers; he claims that data potentially showing a link between vaccines and autism were covered up by the CDC. However, darkness alone isn't enough. Who would continue to believe in a conspiracy theory where there is nothing but darkness and overwhelming forces arrayed against you that you have no hope of ever defeating? No, it's the hope of ultimate vindication, of victory, that sustains the antivaccine conspiracy narrative. It's the fantasy of fighting a heroic battle against all odds. It's the fantasy of one day actually winning that epic battle. It's the fantasy of being able to administer their version of "justice" to their enemies, in which evildoers admit their evil can atone and join the resistance and those who are defeated are punished for their "crimes" after the resistance wins. This is both a light and dark vision. It's a vision of light in that (to antivaxers), it's justice. Those responsible for the "crimes" imagined by antivaxers will be forced to admit their crimes and pay for them. It's a dark vision in that this "justice" not infrequently involves retribution. It's not for nothing that Heckenlively perseverates over Nazis and chose the Reign of Terror after the French Revolution as an example of retribution.</p> <p>It's a very powerful narrative that taps deep into something buried at the heart of human nature. It's also pretty much immune to reason. It's a conspiracy theory that's potent even in "normal" times. However, we are not living in normal times. Donald Trump, who has a long and sordid history of antivaccine statements, is the President, and that gives people like Heckenlively even more hope that they are winning:</p> <blockquote><p><strong>Let’s talk about what’s really causing the Vaxxers to lose their f******* minds.</strong> Donald Trump won the American election. He doesn’t trust the pharmaceutical companies and he is going to put into positions of power those people who don’t trust them, either. The free ride is over. Hell, he even nominated Robert Kennedy, Jr., member of a legendary Democratic dynasty and well-known environmental lawyer, to head a Commission on Vaccine Safety and Scientific Integrity.</p></blockquote> <p>I guess Trump's distrust of the pharmaceutical industry is why he promised to loosen FDA regulations and then appointed an <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/14/schadenfreude-at-the-fda-it-looks-as-though-donald-trump-is-about-to-betray-his-antivaccine-supporters/">honest-to-goodness pharma shill</a> as the FDA Commissioner, causing pharma to <a href="https://www.ft.com/content/306f7ee2-08d1-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43">breathe a sigh of relief</a> and proclaim, "Thank God it's Gottlieb!" (Antivaxers were never too strong on consistency.) Also, it's not at all clear that RFK, Jr. was appointed to anything; all we have is his word for it, and you know what that's worth. (Not much.)</p> <p>I fear what will happen when antivaxers like Heckenlively finally realize that Trump is very likely <b><i>not</i></b> going to do what they want him to, other than perhaps around the edges. It could be scary. After all, another part of many conspiracy narratives is betrayal by someone viewed as an ally.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Wed, 03/15/2017 - 22:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine-nonsense" hreflang="en">Antivaccine nonsense</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/andrew-wakefield" hreflang="en">andrew wakefield</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine" hreflang="en">antivaccine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/conspiracy-theories" hreflang="en">Conspiracy Theories</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/conspiracy-theory" hreflang="en">conspiracy theory</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/kent-heckenlively" hreflang="en">Kent Heckenlively</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/leonard-cohen" hreflang="en">Leonard Cohen</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/you-want-it-darker" hreflang="en">You Want It Darker</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/environment" hreflang="en">Environment</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355713" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489630359"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And to think the whole Anti-Vax movement in America started with reporter named Lea Thompson who won a Pullitzer for a scaremongering story claiming that Whooping Cough Vaccine caused brain damage.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355713&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I3ujLq8E0yF2Q3U0qpxfVu9cIuV8eu3dX91Gzmxt2u8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Graham (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355713">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355714" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489631765"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Hell, he even nominated Robert Kennedy, Jr., member of a legendary Democratic dynasty and well-known environmental lawyer, to head a Commission on Vaccine Safety and Scientific Integrity. </i></p> <p>I kind of suspect that if a president acts in his executive role to ordain a Presidential Commission, he or she doesn't <b>nominate</b> <i>potential</i> chairs; it's more of a 'decree'. But anyway, it would be a formal action, isn't it? You would think there would be some public record of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355714&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WzHrxuouLf8QryoEqVDajTZw9uqv0igiV1cjTcNFM4M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355714">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355715" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489632904"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Remove all vaccines from usage for a period of five years</i></p> <p>An absolute ban? For someone whose fantasies are all about fighting for Freedom, Heckenlively sounds surprisingly predictably eager to have everyone else subjected to his will. Not just in the US but globally.<br /> I have <b>had it</b>with these motherfeckin fascists.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355715&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6Y5Lce1_MZX2nNoHJv2a4I7DFw0fhecHyNXMTMJ6mqc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355715">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355716" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489634536"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I am willing to accept the surrender of those who have perverted science, harmed a generation of children, and even as of this late date are willing to harm more children so as to not to upset the balance of their lives.</p></blockquote> <p>To me, that conjured up an image of a warship shot to pieces and sinking, with the Captain confidently proclaiming from the bridge "I am willing to accept your surrender", while the enemy warship (without any damage) looms over it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355716&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r-pxH-jvHp9PeZY71b_1CDhX0YD10NFvUzd9ZPg6Rj4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355716">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355717" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489645398"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's quite simple - the antivaxxer's crusade is tantamount to child abuse. Another perversity that Trump can add to his CV.<br /> I have referred this article to an ongoing discussion in "The Conversation (AUS)" of an article *Banning unvaccinated kids from child care may have unforeseen consequences* written by Prof C Raina MacIntyre (Professor of Infectious Diseases Epidemiology, Head of the School of Public Health and Community Medicine, UNSW). </p> <p><a href="https://theconversation.com/banning-unvaccinated-kids-from-child-care-may-have-unforeseen-consequences-74437">https://theconversation.com/banning-unvaccinated-kids-from-child-care-m…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355717&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sqM58CjHgsmCpcn_G4Bz19qYMNDe12QEkotlf54ts_4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355717">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355718" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489649152"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kent also subjected (maybe still is) his daughter to bleach enemas. His level of delusion and self-aggrandisement is at the fringe of the anti-vaxx movement thankfully. At least his readership at Bolen's rag is nowhere near what it was at AoA. Wonder what happened to cause his demotion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355718&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4eE2dcp8kzXxRsslxdtTCMPkQtpY4-0umeex3ejf2Uw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355718">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355719" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489649482"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Julian: It would be appropriate to think of Heckenlively as <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno">the Black Knight</a>. "'Tis but a flesh wound."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355719&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gtoB1rukUY_Xy5C1fz1C6XzxZk7Uuw9TRid2_JuUYTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355719">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355720" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489649897"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"...those who have perverted science, harmed a generation of children, and even as of this late date are willing to harm more children so as to not to upset the balance of their lives."<br /> Sounds a lot like the anti-vax crowd to me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355720&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5RkoCj5ATSY4xVwUX8IF0tPp31LJ8t-UnccIANNhen8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JDK (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355720">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355721" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489650607"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The consequences of flag-wavers-of-ignorance like Heckenlively can be seen <a href="http://www.kttc.com/story/34626146/2017/02/Tuesday/rps-vaccination-deadline-approaches-students-will-be-sent-home-on-wednesday">here</a> where a non-vaccinating Minnesota parent says it's part of the plan if your child dies from a vaccine-preventable disease. She says she's going to home school her child rather than meed the Minnesota requirements for her unvaccinated child to attend school. Since many states in the US don't have the ability to track vaccination rates in the increasing numbers of home-schooled children (many of whom are unvaccinated), I worry that herd immunity is more compromised than we think.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355721&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I_tmO07mHp7QC55wrlSBSg7UpWJ4tHz8JACCj7BF-Vo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355721">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355722" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489653789"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry, but I won't even consider surrendering unless there's a lot of money in it. Pay me off and I'll spill so many details, Thompson will look like a piker.</p> <p>I visualize riding my coal-black horse into the massive lobby of the First International Bank of The Conspiracy, depositing massive amounts of filthy lucre into its dark shadowy vaults. </p> <p>And then it's off to Jason's for a Deli Cowboy sandwich (they're really good).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355722&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l3RpEaduuMj2hqbPxUI1BQAveRj3Ri-RfBso-16pzPU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355722">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355723" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489654754"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>His original fantasy also shows some misunderstanding of the vaccine licensing process. There's a lot of lab work and animal studies that go into getting the IND license that allows companies to start testing vaccines in humans. In other words, for the newer vaccines, what he is fantasizing was already done.</p> <p>I'd also add, Orac, that the vindication they have in mind is also dark. It's all about revenge.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355723&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZWhE9xZa0Rq9BAjqYDy0omYSpoV-5W0FO5k_UZ9GlF8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dorit Reiss (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355723">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355724" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489662564"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kent Heckenlively appeared narcissistic and your narrative was hypnotic until you wrote,</p> <p>"The evidence, however, would have to be so obvious and irrefutable that not even Paul Offit or I could deny it."</p> <p>MJD says,</p> <p>There lays the problem, this proposed committee of two has shown to be unreliable on a very important vaccine safety issue.</p> <p>Specifically, the evidence is obvious and irrefutable that a hazardous material (i.e., a natural occurring polyisoprene) used in vaccine packaging can contaminate vaccine solutions with allergenic proteins and cause an adverse immune response.</p> <p>Paul Offit and Orac (aka, Offrac) have not publicly renounced its continued used and thereafter have violated the public trust in vaccines.</p> <p>If Gandalf the White were present he would intervene and pronounce with effect, "Offrac you staffs are broken!".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355724&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JuzvMRdI7cvAwC70TB8Yme5BgJUgop73wY3s0t-SNqw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355724">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355725" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489668117"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I guess Trump’s distrust of the pharmaceutical industry is why he promised to loosen FDA regulations and then appointed an honest-to-goodness pharma shill as the FDA Commissioner, causing pharma to breathe a sigh of relief and proclaim, “Thank God it’s Gottlieb!” </p></blockquote> <p>Orac also pointed out that Dr. Gottlieb emphatically rejects the vaccine-autism nonsense and likely almost everything that Heckenlively and his fellow loons have ever posted at AoA. </p> <p><a href="http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/case-closed-on-vaccine-autism-debate-doctor.html">http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/case-closed-on-vaccine-autism-debate-doc…</a></p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/14/schadenfreude-at-the-fda-it-looks-as-though-donald-trump-is-about-to-betray-his-antivaccine-supporters/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/14/schadenfreude-at-the-fda-i…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355725&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r90WlkOqaZWVcGeRePI71RhSIOku8WQuoNyLYM-mPpY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">brian (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355725">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355726" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489669376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Vaccine indoctrination depends on propaganda, and high IQ dupes to perpetuate it who've never questioned their own indoctrination.</p> <p>On the pro-vax side, there are scientists developing more vaccines, medical workers spreading them around the world; and social engineers developing more and better ways to get people to take them. They really believe they're the best of the brightest, helping to save the world.</p> <p>On the anti-vax side, you have advocates for "safer" vaccines, and those who believe the only concern is autism, or mercury. They also believe their own indoctrination--they just think there's room for improvement.</p> <p>And then you have a few people in key positions on all sides who know fully well what vaccine indoctrination is all about: keeping the population sick, weak and obedient. They're elitist psychopaths who genuflect to the likes of Edward Bernays, and they are deliberately spreading disinformation and misdirection, both pro-vax and anti-vax. The best way to control the opposition is to lead it, and staging faux battles with faux nemeses is all part of the show.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355726&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BGc5BK8p7zYhZOOQF8zQ13CsiZBEqqIZbQZf6e9pad0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355726">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355727" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489670176"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hickenlively has a remarkable gift for alliteration.</p> <p>I can understand why the narrative tends to get darker. In a position where people are turning away from you because they decide you're too crazy to associate with, life would always have the appearance of battle lines being drawn. Isolation has a way of creating desperation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355727&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yGk1Wcrgd6Hu_2IGtX3ts9QFW52NFPVvJThHwzUP-Ik"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">viggen (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355727">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355728" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489671506"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter: I'd have more respect for you if you were consistently anti-vax. Say what you will about the tenets of the anti-vax crowd, at least it's an ethos.</p> <p>But no, you have to come in spouting this "both sides" nonsense. That presumes a frame in which both sides are considered, if not equal, then at least comparable. Which couldn't be further from the truth. One side has respect for facts and well-designed clinical trials. The other thrives on anecdotes and conspiracy theories. One of these things is not like the other.</p> <p>"Both sides" journalism is one of the things that contributed to Trump's election. Fake controversies about e-mails and what happened in Benghazi were elevated to the equivalent of openly bragging about sexual assault and stiffing contractors.</p> <p>To quote the gospel according to St. Neil Peart, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." As someone who claims to be a reporter, you should be on the side of truth, and there are times when you have to choose a side in order to be on the side of truth. Vaccination is one of those issues. Claiming that the anti-vax crowd's arguments have nearly equal merit (or lack thereof) to the people who recommend vaccines gives the anti-vax crowd credibility they have not earned.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355728&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QQTsbPlX8UETMUwUKwo4e14EdE-9qf94K79htxb2TWA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355728">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355729" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489671885"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BTW - Trump hasn't nominated RFK Jr. for anything related to vaccine safety.</p> <p>Statement released by Hope Hicks, White House Director of Strategic Communications:</p> <p>"The President-elect enjoyed his discussion with Robert Kennedy Jr. on a range of issues and appreciates his thoughts and ideas. The President-elect is exploring the possibility of forming a commission on Autism, which affects so many families; however no decisions have been made at this time. The President-elect looks forward to continuing the discussion about all aspects of Autism with many groups and individuals,"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355729&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IXMeAzuqCwX_uXg4HQFQDN3cyjd4RwcHGzz-8Ng94jc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">RobRN (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355729">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355730" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489673734"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Once again, we have unsubstantiated claims of a global conspiracy....one which, I guess, had lasted for decades or more, without any exposure whatsoever.</p> <p>I don't quite know how these types of people can even tie their shoes, with the thought that every government in the world is out to get them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355730&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ws2-GKtVuFAEhRAGvVdc_iY1MHKkiPIo83h-d5sz094"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355730">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355731" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489673760"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Eric Lund -- I think you should read my comment again: </p> <p>"And then you have a few people in key positions on all sides who know fully well what vaccine indoctrination is all about: keeping the population sick, weak and obedient."</p> <p>I don't think it's possible to get any clearer than that, as far as my position on vaccines. I'm not playing both sides -- I'm calling out both sides, to the extent they are both serving the vaccine indoctrination agenda, wittingly or unwittingly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355731&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iQWwaFWzj6I_1fByzyzwtihABzR92OAiq61ag9r8WXM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355731">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355732" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489674285"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@MJD</p> <blockquote><p>Specifically, the evidence is obvious and irrefutable that a hazardous material (i.e., a natural occurring polyisoprene) used in vaccine packaging can contaminate vaccine solutions with allergenic proteins and cause an adverse immune response.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh really? Would you please post links to the studies that show this to be the case, Michael.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355732&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6a7TWLjvKIPT_NZpiBSjEMkKUVk1CdHILQA9SpcB-hk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355732">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355733" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489674400"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t think it’s possible to get any clearer than that, as far as my position on vaccines. I’m not playing both sides — I’m calling out both sides, to the extent they are both serving the vaccine indoctrination agenda, wittingly or unwittingly.</p></blockquote> <p>Of course, the faux paragon of reason "calling out both sides". Nothing new here; you're just as anti-vaxx and anti-science as the loon this post is the subject of.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355733&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NXY49i2Z8e7ssQyivTl2tncuAu5eGSnlSjVjFTIC1Dw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355733">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355734" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489675261"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let's face it, Science Mom: there's nothing you wouldn't get behind fully, as long as the right people tell you it's "science." :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355734&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="X_LtkcNps6B_DUvTt6lEtJQFSXHfhYziyXe9W-GMkd4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355734">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355733#comment-1355733" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355735" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489675792"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Let’s face it, Science Mom: there’s nothing you wouldn’t get behind fully, as long as the right people tell you it’s “science.” ?</p></blockquote> <p>That's of course where else you are dead wrong. I can evaluate the literature for myself as can most here. This is in stark contrast with the likes of you, who suffer from Dunning-Kruger or are just contrarian in order to appear avant-garde.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355735&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7L2IiE7sBWXTpjEyKX16fB7bGPPlGHWzOeZdloAMlLU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355735">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355737" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489676250"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Really? Do have any examples where you think the "official position" on any issue of science is wrong?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355737&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ztz8VRZpNULzYXmD5V1QC2d1yN5wFXvlf0ev-wgXBGY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355737">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355735#comment-1355735" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355736" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489676098"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO whatever is just a common troll. Even the idiot use of "NWO" is indicative of a conspiracy troll. I got tired of hearing about that conspiracy from a crazy aunt over forty years ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355736&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="unQRfmVRcHBvZi9xH1v8mxjka_oWP3HZO9wSKDZ20OE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355736">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489676287"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, NWO, enlighten us. When did this conspiracy start? Who coordinates the global message?</p> <p>By what mechanism are payments made? What mechanisms exist to "silence" those who find out the truth?</p> <p>Seriously, explain it, "scientifically" since you seem to be in the know....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8Z8ibgF8HfugGVqSk7ZfIE98r_wtAAb9weStIi9Qk9Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489676333"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And go away Travis - for someone who complains about "doxing" you're continued presence here certainly isn't helping your case.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o7pgquOIIw3ede5tUt5XoChkCbMPwrP01ofWSBC3xvI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489677748"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I’d have more respect for you if you were consistently anti-vax.</p></blockquote> <p>I'd have more respect for the NWO Global Elites if they'd quit dithering on the Great Culling. There are <i>way</i> too many Useless Bandwidth Eaters.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qbMaQozpriZYSwIw6IOEBFQB6kdu89KShGCJ3av2pAY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489677892"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Those Global Elites, they do have a very strange way of culling the population....I mean, we have the highest standards of living, with the longest lifespans in human history...not to mention that the current population growth rate continues to increase.</p> <p>They are certainly doing a horrible, horrible job.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lSywoOIuCpVGjb1mzA1nfblHzDrqCHaYsru4YR673ws"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489678335"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Really? Do have any examples where you think the “official position” on any issue of science is wrong?</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, mammograms. Although that has been largely corrected in the U.S.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aXltxcYexiPeDxjYO8XGzudcg0js9aR-dQOeIsuTIgE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489679684"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So you "disagree" with an official position on science that has "been largely corrected." LOL. I hope that is an example of your sense of humor. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w88DogbOaANgMUrrtHCnOqAZs3U1IG5FcSDLDh_hSh8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355742#comment-1355742" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489678457"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Those Global Elites, they do have a very strange way of culling the population….</p></blockquote> <p>I think the tin-foil beanie brigade's "official position" has shifted from that to just keeping people chronically-ill so as to be life-long consumers of pharmaceutical products.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="taMRs6tqXkI6VrxLknekF6k9uoPjaoAjurspj4FIdlw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489679387"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t think it’s possible to get any clearer than that, as far as my position on vaccines. I’m not playing both sides — I’m calling out both sides</p></blockquote> <p>By your own admission, you are claiming that both sides are comparably bad in this regard, which is exactly what I am complaining about. It's called false equivalence. To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, facts have a well-known pro-vaccine bias.</p> <blockquote><p>Do have any examples where you think the “official position” on any issue of science is wrong?</p></blockquote> <p>Here you're getting into "not even wrong" territory. I am a practicing scientist who has been involved in some actual scientific controversies. Science doesn't take an "official" position. Rather, policy makers use (or should use) the best available science to make official policy. Scientists will form a consensus on a topic when the evidence is overwhelming. That is the case here: the benefits of preventing needless death and suffering due to vaccine-preventable diseases is almost universally considered to outweigh the costs of providing vaccines to all who can and should be vaccinated. Similarly with global warming: well-established physics and chemistry shows that carbon dioxide absorbs infrared radiation in the wavelength range at which a black body with Earth's temperature radiates, and burning fossil fuels will increase the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, so the temperature of the Earth must increase enough that the amount of radiation leaving the Earth balances the amount coming in from the Sun. But in situations where the evidence is not conclusive one way or the other, scientists will disagree on the subject. That's why we have clinical trials and other experiments.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BnmBrR0ITCxUYZ9zDK-WxS9ZUKMEj4NTZoLf9haM_yM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489680455"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What you're describing is the way science is *supposed* to work. </p> <p>"Scientists will form a consensus on a topic when the evidence is overwhelming." Well, yes--but much of the so-called "scientific consensus" we are dealing with now is actually manufactured perception, not genuine consensus. Meaning that scientists venturing outside the preferred paradigm will have difficulty being funded, published, and publicized in the media, and will often find their careers on the receiving end of smear campaigns. Vaccines and other medical issues, man-made climate change, GMOs, fluoride, and other environmental issues--all are being controlled with a manufactured perception of scientific consensus.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O2DoOGIr74pQCP4aKM6QrhkdUnVIYWnnCETbcTDvx94"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355744#comment-1355744" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355748" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489681006"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just to add...there are many examples in history where great minds who opposed the so-called "scientific consensus" of the day were the agents of great change and enlightenment. </p> <p>Real science is not now, and never had been, about "consensus."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355748&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eO4OJgzADWVMERHYgILp9pDrafJ-wOJLKhTLWyx3f_s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355748">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355744#comment-1355744" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355747" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489680638"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So you “disagree” with an official position on science that has “been largely corrected.” LOL. I hope that is an example of your sense of humor.</p></blockquote> <p>I called your bluff and you shift the goal-post. Why am I not shocked. I think you don't realise the big world we live in. Policy in the U.S. has responded to the evidence that had emerged, that's how biomedical science works.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355747&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="taLjsi3TEqVzC9IfETOMVSAKOR55E7QM04fA684oBGo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355747">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355749" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489681774"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Meaning that scientists venturing outside the preferred paradigm will have difficulty being funded, published, and publicized in the media</p></blockquote> <p>Try looking through Orac's archives sometime. You will find several examples in which he dissects actual papers published in allegedly peer reviewed journals. Papers which go against what you call the preferred paradigm. Some of these are even published in journals famous enough for people outside of biomedical science to have heard of them, e.g., A. J. Wakefield et al. in the <i>Lancet</i> in 1998. He dissects those papers in the way a typical graduate student journal club would, pointing out the reasons (of which there are inevitably many) why the papers don't actually show what they purport to show. These scientists have no problem getting publicity for their work, since controversy sells newspapers and their TV and web equivalents. And yes, many of these individuals manage to be quite well-funded. NIH is not the only US funding source for biomedical research--there are private foundations and industry funding as well.</p> <p>It's not that science doesn't have problems. But the problems it has are not the kind you postulate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355749&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FfRBL9BHQ6ZDl7ExmMQhvE2BFsJnZTtD0sRflmNbfA0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355749">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355752" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489682852"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You can never rely on someone else's analysis of another person's work, because unfortunately, they often have their own agendas for disparaging it, and will simply not be honest or objective. </p> <p>In general, the more someone is trying to convince you not to pay attention to someone's work, the more important it is to pay attention to it.</p> <p>It's fine to read other people's analysis of the work afterward--but it's not a substitute. You will quickly understand why if you do what I described above.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355752&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EFHRjV1OCwtdW_hBRDTmayC1yjMy_pvYlqIq7tpfKlQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355752">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355749#comment-1355749" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355750" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489682200"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eric Lund: "Try looking through Orac’s archives sometime."</p> <p>Apparently that is a task that is much too difficult for the NWO troll to manage. The handy dandy little search box at the top of this page when he kept bringing up old stale arguments, some that were dismantled by the clear box with blinking lights over a decade ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355750&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-JlHqSPQJpobkNruFg4d6RzWTRzhJ46NPk6wP6MpUoc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355750">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355751" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489682594"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Just to add…there are many examples in history where great minds who opposed the so-called “scientific consensus” of the day were the agents of great change and enlightenment. </p></blockquote> <p>And none of them were or ever will be of the anti-vaxx sort so what's your point?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355751&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="140AgH2heFmx2Mr7mlNwcDkM0CDEnnyMp0zFB2UNuXc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355751">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355753" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489683399"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> Just to add…there are many examples in history where great minds who opposed the so-called “scientific consensus” of the day were the agents of great change and enlightenment. </i></p> <p>Prime example: Edward Jenner.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355753&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CTQhuYVCUl2QDR44IGjmDVjt7JCvpLaUS0uHPfzE0MY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355753">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355755" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489687653"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The cow pus guy? LOL. :D Besides, he hardly invented the inoculation idea.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355755&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pzwza9pm-k7uoo9wVPwWRzuTY51hp4_0-ZVP9plfxsc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355755">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355753#comment-1355753" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355754" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489683829"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO @34: If you're so unhappy with "Vaccines and other medical issues, man-made climate change, GMOs, fluoride, and other environmental issues" perhaps you would like a one way time travel ticket to London 1349?</p> <p>Or maybe you should try out to be on that History Channel show "Alone".</p> <p>You don't like anything about modern life and you think everyone else in the world is a liar. Why are you here?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355754&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XdC6jrW8tB36KXM-P_-NiOlpFDEhafjFq3ivuM9i0OI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355754">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355757" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489688596"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"You don't like anything about modern life and you think everyone else in the world is a liar..."</p> <p>What?! This is a fabulous time to be alive. And most of humanity has a conscience. Why are you making assumptions like that?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355757&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VEPaIN365RRjqNGsdbeUk_5eXR5OexTvZ7lPUHQF8uQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355757">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355754#comment-1355754" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355756" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489688023"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's really not that NWO is playing at false equivalence a la Dr Jay or the other "vaccine safety advocates". He's in a third category, one which really should be obvious from his username (New World Order): his worldview revolves around an unshakable faith in the existence of a nefarious worldwide conspiracy that drives basically everything in order to keep us in line. HE believes this same conspiracy drives the pro-vax, the anti-vax, and the "vaccine safety" advocates, and probably pretty much everyone else as well, and everyone he encounters who does not agree with him is clearly either part of the conspiracy or a victim of its brainwashing.</p> <p>So he does have a sort of equivalence going on, but not on the basis of the merits of their arguments, because he feels neither side has any merits to begin with. They're all working from a villainous ulterior motive to keep us all sick.</p> <p>He doesn't offer any alternative, but he doesn't have to, really. His world view is a nihilistic one, in which we ultimately have very little real choice, only the illusion of one. Trust no one but yourself.</p> <p>Once you work yourself into that world view, it's very difficult to get out. I don't think it's worth trying to persuade him of anything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355756&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vh2G9i1g6ND6TBuXtmTX1VLURNreZYoOSLl_YQGj0yI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355756">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355758" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489688662"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't intend to dox NWO reporter, and I don't think this piece of information does that, but it keeps bugging me, even though it's a small thing.</p> <p>NWO reporter is a she. Please stop with the "he".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355758&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="z8R7J2KNUV6vgaZ4qhALA5hgY3pksvB9MNpGJ4lavaE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dorit Reiss (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355758">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355756#comment-1355756" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355759" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489689196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not quite--I'm merely pointing out that we live in a world of disinformation, and controlled opposition is hardly a new idea.</p> <p>There's a lot of good anti-vaccine information out there. Most of the best of it rarely gets any press, because that would only call attention to it. Again, hardly a revolutionary concept. So the best strategy, IMO, is to seek out the anti-vaccine sources that get little press attention.</p> <p>Wakefield has done some good work, and he gets a lot of press. But what do you find if you decide to actually listen to the other side? You find out that, not only was his research replicated by others, but ... *drum roll* ... he's not even anti-vaccine! The furthest he ever went was to recommend the MMR be broken up into 3 separate shots. He's squarely in the "safer" vaccine camp.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355759&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2QrmejgsfukICyRrDaP9gkoCKUyAno--BeLYI6USFXQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355759">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355756#comment-1355756" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1355760" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489689751"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ha. Haha. Hshaha. Hahahahshahahahaha!</p> <p>"Wakefield has done some good work?"</p> <p>Stop it. You're killing me! Too, too funny!</p> <p>Ah, me.</p> <p>And, yes, I've listened to what Wakefield has said, and I've read a lot of his studies. THAT is why I found your characterization of his work so gut-bustingly hilarious.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355760&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OjFrrh9TZW-E-QW1GsbHMOwDiBmImTAO_Kke61HgU8A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355760">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355759#comment-1355759" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355762" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489690391"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Glad to return the favor, Orac--I've gotten quite a few laughs from your blog, too...in a dark way.</p> <p>The idea that these folks who want "safer" vaccines, or want to customize the CDC schedule, are "anti-vaccine" is rather satirical.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355762&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nOChr-62-ESLizzamHMnHpL_JdfYzfaK71HDFJ_zfvg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355762">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355760#comment-1355760" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></p> </footer> </article> </div></div></div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355761" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489690062"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The furthest he ever went was to recommend the MMR be broken up into 3 separate shots.</p></blockquote> <p>It was no small coincidence he had a patent for a single measles vaccine was it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355761&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TILERRaiuD2XGygadcVlhwzCsIGXFYQ3nX78itYqtGk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355761">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355763" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489690641"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO @ 42:</p> <blockquote><p>The cow pus guy? LOL. ? Besides, he hardly invented the inoculation idea.</p></blockquote> <p>You're an idiot. Yes, <b>inoculation</b> with smallpox <i>itself</i> had been in use for a while--and people used it gladly, because a 5-10% of dying is better than 33-50%. What Jenner invented was <i>vaccination</i> with a different, harmless virus. (<i>Vaccinia</i>, hence the origin of the name.) <i>Zero</i> chance of dying was <i>definitely</i> better!</p> <p>I swear, you antivaxxers break new ground in the field of ignorance every time you open your mouths!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355763&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WamalxcNoH4igq0WWHDRwemb9KPZOuyOEOBZsuNm2VA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355763">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355764" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489691203"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Zero chance of dying..." LOL. Too bad his little experiment was colossal failure. But no worries--there's basically nothing a little revision of history can't fix. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355764&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mxTfFU3RygNmeMX96fitjffpMrlYox-fNmRXs3f1_3c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355764">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355763#comment-1355763" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355767" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489691976"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Right...the old "smallpox stopped killing people; therefore, vaccines" trope. Just like all those other diseases that stopped killing people. Sure, death rates plunged long before the vaccines. But it WAS before the vaccines. Therefore, vaccines. It's solid Vaccine Logic." :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355767&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2TXHeu2p8aG5hNlC2aNEGECQLl9Gh2WChNJOBqzr4rc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355767">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355763#comment-1355763" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355765" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489691387"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter #42:</p> <p>Inoculation means specifically smallpox innoculation. And yes, it was hardly a new idea. But it involved use of live smallpox virus. Generally it meant a milder version of the disease.</p> <p>What Jenner did was create the first smallpox vaccine, from cowpox (hence the source of the term). The similar but benign disease provided immunity to small pox with far less risk. That vastly reduced risk, plus an easily obtained source, made mass vaccination and the possible eradication of smallpox possible.</p> <p>Jenner didn't have to come up with the original idea to have the bigger one, and the one with vastly more importance.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355765&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f_MLmXl4CVQEeES-PUJjp2EjyhRlTcdwsx3y7IZqn9M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355765">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355766" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489691413"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pray tell us how I'm "revising" history, you idiot. Tell us how smallpox went from killing a third of every new generation to obliteration--and don't bring up any moronic crap about "sanitation", either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355766&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="guEeqOB4NF9UmMLtX3JTeIFeW1t6vGzXfCSeYK5wH5o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355766">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355768" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489692076"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is it in bad taste to want a set of icon-sized brass knuckles?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355768&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6_r1qU8ELbjEgGOD_0ao4ao9N7x5nyIQUFnZRjWxdE0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355768">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355769" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489692189"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What?! This is a fabulous time to be alive. And most of humanity has a conscience. Why are you making assumptions like that?</p></blockquote> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogYgHlNnqo">"What a Beautiful World This Would Be"</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355769&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fm7YHfSKdWTFUUbHev6bT0LXZc78eFE0hz9BNaqPZBU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355769">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355770" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489692951"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Though the threads are swollen<br /> Keep them comments trollin',<br /> Rawhide!</p> <p>Cherry pick!<br /> (Head em' up!)<br /> Move goalposts!<br /> (Move 'em on!)<br /> More insults!<br /> (Head em' up!)<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Cut 'em out<br /> (Paste 'em in!)<br /> Paste'em in<br /> (Cut em' out!)<br /> Cut 'em out<br /> Paste 'em in,<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Keep trollin', trollin', trollin'<br /> Though they're disaprovin'<br /> Keep them comments trollin'',<br /> Rawhide<br /> Don't try to understand 'em<br /> Just rope, laugh, and ignore 'em<br /> Soon we'll be discussin' bright without 'em</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355770&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sJo5cfSWApJd9DW3_foZXOHsQ7UWcB97WWNyxJFOpSg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355770">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355771" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489693852"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Today I had 5 marijuanas and a bourbon and coke.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355771&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LBsUZv0hn7wOgFXBKwmCtUnmQdKoC2A6EJv8XU8P2AY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gilbert (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355771">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355772" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489693894"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The song is for the NWO troll.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355772&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j7eYDBT6FYHpWG0hhn0BpDow7NeV-F56H4GuJUwV2EA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355772">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355773" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489696188"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There is a question none of the pro-vax brigade answer and that is: since vaccine theory and methodology was invented and applied during the time when science-medicine believed the brain and immune system were not connected, and in the last year or so it has been discovered there is, a powerful connection, which, according to the experts demands that textbooks be rewritten, should there be a limiting of vaccination until the research is done into this link and the affect that vaccines might have on the brain? </p> <p>During the max-vax age we have seen epidemics of Autism and Behavioural and Learning Difficulties in children and Dementia and Alzheimer's in the aged. These are the two most vulnerable groups. </p> <p>Since the brain/immune link can never have been studied in regard to vaccines, since it was not believed to exist, how can it be claimed that vaccines do not affect brain function?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355773&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ecS7yFXAfJ06ne7BGt5P46UI0rUpyP2EDCihdIoRGr4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">R.Ross (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355773">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355774" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489698369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p># 5 Max King</p> <p>That was an interesting article in the Conversation, and the abstract of the article looked interesting too. How many provinces <b>does</b> Australia have? Okay, it could have been a cut &amp; paste error but still.</p> <p>I was rather surprised to learn that we, in Canada, have no requirements for vaccination before children may attend school. All those reports about the thousands of children at risk of not being allowed to attend school in the Ottawa School board must have been a hoax last fall.</p> <p>And that Ontario provincial legislation I was looking at last August or September must have been a figment of my imagination.</p> <p>I am not terribly sure I'd trust Dr MacIntyre's opinions at the moment</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355774&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7jP5QVeOpZKLt9VX0ImLp31vGWh_z23v-0l2SSnlwtE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jrkrideau (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355774">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355791" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489718086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oz has 6 states and 2 territories, plus 3 dependencies. </p> <p>I don't expect that the Commonwealth (federal) Government will succeed in passing legislation to prevent non-vaccinated children from attending child-care facilities (or kindergartens, or junior primary schools). The great majority of Australians find the idea offensive, disgraceful and stupid.</p> <p>Prof MacIntyre's opinions are just that, opinions.- other than that she is a very highly regarded immunologist. </p> <p>There is an emerging problem of increasing numbers of cases of preventable diseases occurring in young children . If a child in a child care facility comes down with the disease then the facility has to be closed down for a number of days - thus causing unnecessary hardship for those working parents who then have to arrange child minding.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355791&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XMnbL06RmtGw1tx-BnLg1iThMQjRl6Rbp33wGKCE6SY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355791">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355774#comment-1355774" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jrkrideau (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355775" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489699204"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Wakefield has done some good work</p></blockquote> <p>lolwut?</p> <p>There actually is something a scientist can do to ensure that he is permanently ostracized, his research funding eliminated, and his career ruined. That something is to be caught fabricating data. Which Wakefield did. That is why he was "struck off" (to use the UK term for having one's medical license revoked), and his <i>Lancet</i> paper retracted.</p> <p>And if you were to devote a millisecond of thought to the matter, you would understand why fabricating data is considered a career-ending move. If you've done it once, who will trust you not to do it again? Indeed, as a quick perusal of Retraction Watch will inform you, most scientists who get caught fabricating data have done so repeatedly. The peer review system is not designed to catch intentional fraud; the reviewer must assume that the described experiments were performed and the described results obtained, an assumption which is almost always justified but that data fabricators exploit. Typically, one fabrication is discovered (sometimes by chance, other times by failure to replicate), and a subsequent investigation reveals other examples coming from the same lab.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355775&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0ZuU681MOMnlNeHSROlD0Ltr_rt6R5OrgAFFmtrrOlY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355775">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355778" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489701001"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LOL. Right. Don't bother getting the other side of the story! Wakefield can't be trusted! I mean, not like a pharmaceutical mega corporation that cares only about your health! And not like the CDC, with all their vaccine patents. Because, you know...CDC. But just in case...remember--Wakefield is pro-vaccine. :D</p> <p>"It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” Dr. Marcia Angell, <a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doctorsa-story-of-corruption/">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doc…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355778&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pxncOeJBlMiOsquBcE251WLPIARjFbzmHXevxVZDr9M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355778">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355775#comment-1355775" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355776" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489700103"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>He’s squarely in the “safer” vaccine camp.</i></p> <p>Wakefield is squarely in the "mendacious result-faking wazzcock" camp.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355776&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SJqW2UWe0wxBtfzlpmlUIBXTdNkCpvGewtn9pS_Zi1I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355776">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355777" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489700627"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Julian &amp;Eric: or Baghdad Bob.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355777&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cBGAxnYLmP3j6TLdrN2diXh0IkLlD9nHmhQ0cA_5MvQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355777">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355779" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489702459"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Agyric NWO with his/her/its insipid "measles in benign" screed should go <a href="http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/03/13/isnt-it-ironic-pauline-hansons-wa-senator-hospitalised-measles">visit this unvaxxed now measles-ridden hospitalized Australian politician.</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355779&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OlsiLIfa-TPLU2uygQxbrq_t_-VmyTyEg_tyIzSy-8E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355779">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355780" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489703234"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Don’t bother getting the other side of the story!</i></p> <p>I must have missed the side of the story in which Wakefield <b>isn't</b> a demonstrable liar.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355780&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HutrRrzAYDuZYYTd4QIJw7qgqcP7w0aZAI3OOoJTUZM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355780">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355782" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489703920"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Really, Herr Doktor? Poul Thorsen is a wanted fugitive for allegedly stealing over a million dollars he was supposed to be using on vaccine safety research, and I'm guessing you still cite his studies all the time. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355782&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CkEvu9-sjJHC0AJV_-RbBjTBCn53F6vM4wKroOHo8gA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355782">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355780#comment-1355780" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355781" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489703567"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-17/tetanus-girl-not-vaccinated-say-health-authorities/8362722">What happens when you don't vaccinate your children</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355781&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S6IY0rOX4qJ1Go6-5OY0LAnVqkuss4X8lSzAmTwTuhQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355781">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355783" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489704257"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Poul Thorsen? Jeeminy Priest, it's P.R.A.T.T.s all the way down....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355783&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tmdXBr5Auor85x5vkksNAZyorEapHcABDr3NU36EKOo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355783">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355784" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489704560"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Refuted?" Sure--if by "refuted" you mean carefully whitewashed and swept under the rug. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355784&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="udvI4aX_KPTzY8ayQQdiUMrG2Q2Kiw07pTl6gg5PqZ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355784">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355783#comment-1355783" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355785" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489705578"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No, by "refuted", I mean "involving a miscellaneous middle author out of dozens on one study, who got in trouble for something completely unrelated years later."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355785&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t-RzA_IwIU4U-oH1f5cJS08XaWNZ1q4MNv0PhOdw6-E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355785">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355786" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489705872"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If the pro and anti vaccination sides both have it wrong and their stances are that vaccines are good, and that vaccines are bad..... then vaccines are neither good....nor bad.... Does that make vaccines a quantum uncertainty?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355786&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a0QtJyJDzBMp2F7qAFZVEVd5iUglu1Wa77lvv1jzIWQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355786">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355787" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489706163"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Does that make vaccines a quantum uncertainty?</p></blockquote> <p>Guilt by association is all these antivaxxers have--Niels Bohr was a Dane, Poul Thorsen was a Dane...so the Copenhagen Interpretation is a conspiracy!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355787&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XqJA55R5guDDu0ItjUKFpBjl3AkNuxc8YMQ5uFpnR24"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355787">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355788" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489707392"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You can never rely on someone else’s analysis of another person’s work</p></blockquote> <p>I take it that's why you rely exclusively on the purest of stale assertions. This is low-rent shіt by any measure.</p> <p>But anyway, at least I finally got around to reinstalling the killfile today before fleeing the scene over here to save my sanity. It was really MJD that got me to grit my teeth long enough, but it was suffering well invested.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355788&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="89bh1xoTguDss0opOVwf076oA4Dm_fNCBZf_cEge_ok"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355788">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355789" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489714500"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ R. Ross #61:</p> <blockquote><p>science-medicine believed the brain and immune system were not connected, and in the last year or so it has been discovered there is, a powerful connection, which, according to the experts demands that textbooks be rewritten</p></blockquote> <p>Citation needed into the links between the brain and the immune system. Citation needed about which experts have asked for the textbooks to be rewritten and details about the rewrites they want made.</p> <blockquote><p>..should there be a limiting of vaccination until the research is done into this link and the affect that vaccines might have on the brain?</p></blockquote> <p>No. The risks of going unvaccinated are known. Stopping vaccination for a theoretical risk is unwise.</p> <blockquote><p>During the max-vax age we have seen epidemics of Autism and Behavioural and Learning Difficulties in children and Dementia and Alzheimer’s in the aged.</p></blockquote> <p>The autism-vaccine link has been investigated into the ground. There is no link. As for Dementia and Alzheimer's, those are diseases of old age, and the fact that people are living longer and surviving into old age means that these are more common.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355789&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wfk2DIh2gdcdP-aVF1NQdbpcIHereN5caOoRZiGFjGM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355789">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355790" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489717990"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Julian Frost, Roslyn Ross is a strong proponent of homeopathy. So reasoning with her is likely to be less than useful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355790&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="geeb6-mVctDq6YNrJ8bWYBzFB6zEhDaiWpO3-mgn8Cg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355790">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355792" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489718796"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Really, Herr Doktor? Poul Thorsen is a wanted fugitive for allegedly stealing over a million dollars he was supposed to be using on vaccine safety research, and I’m guessing you still cite his studies all the time</p></blockquote> <p>It's like this. I had to get out of bed and sober up in time for an 11.30 session with a client. Then I had to hold it together and stay coherent all afternoon for statistical advisory meetings with students. The fact that I can imitate "empathy" and "human behaviour" does not mean that I enjoy doing so, and I am not currently in the mood to play nice with trollish sophistry like this. </p> <p>The subject of "Wakefield's honesty" came up because <b>NWO Reporter mentioned it</b>. And now NWO wants to change the subject to some completely different middle author of unrelated papers? This is the behaviour of a cowardly gobshite gutless waste of perfectly good organs. I an SHOCKED.</p> <p>Please point to the papers in which I have cited Thorsen's work. Just one would be enough.</p> <p>And while you're at it, there is the unanswered and previously-run-away-from question of whether NWO Reporter still stands by the mendacious crap puked out by the <i>Daily Heil</i> on Irish orphan farms and vaccine tests.</p> <p>I have HAD IT with these motherfeckin gutless sh1tweasels on this motherfeckin comment thread.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355792&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4n35O3rR51MPYJ2sYh8hydZVZcAMsIGdD1gP1aHq2Ow"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 16 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355792">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355797" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489751884"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Temper, Herr Doktor. :) So, are you saying you do NOT stand behind fugitive Poul Thorsen's studies?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355797&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C5KG7-h5ACxfpfGRsG_X7b5t2aSK-0u4Smm0VwMfrWE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355797">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355792#comment-1355792" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355793" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489723562"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>R. Ross, first you have to prove that a link between vaccine and autism is really occuring. Good luck going against all the epidemiological studies that say there isn't.<br /> Only then can you start talking about possible mecanisms.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355793&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ruCnKwn3MRyya3rzX3RAGerO-LSRq0yGIG_LewolNYI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LouV (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355793">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355794" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489744757"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I love how all the pro-vaxxers on here in the comments are not up to date on the REAL news behind Trump, RFK Jr. and the vaccine commission. Really shows how well the vaccine shills they do their homework...</p> <p>And pardon me, but who's really against safer vaccines? Time to categorize them as a pharmaceutical along with all the associated safety &amp; efficacy requirements, strip away the 0% liability (Bye bye 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act) and let the public decide on your wonderful product.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355794&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C2bGZtUA98_gZA9d5v_scOY2-8sexAcyJXb5JymT_CY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Charles Martell OGD (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355794">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355795" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489746303"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>And while you’re at it, there is the unanswered and previously-run-away-from question of whether NWO Reporter still stands by the mendacious crap puked out by the Daily Heil on Irish orphan farms and vaccine tests.</p></blockquote> <p>Among other things.</p> <blockquote><p>I have HAD IT with these motherfeckin gutless sh1tweasels on this motherfeckin comment thread.</p></blockquote> <p>That reminds me that now that NWOR's been shіtcanned, the WP emoji Javascript needs to go in its entirely as well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355795&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_-w1VB5paCPHqtu3dR-p7wAYQagh5XVMLJhjv5IpV4M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355795">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355796" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489747595"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>the WP emoji Javascript needs to go in its entirely as well.</p></blockquote> <p>That came out a bit glib, didn't it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355796&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6VVKk_CUbKISMgCVTjLpjKsN6gVDnycpNz4KGxpghO4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gilbert (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355796">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355798" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489754217"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Poul Thorsen is a wanted fugitive for allegedly stealing over a million dollars he was supposed to be using on vaccine safety research, and I’m guessing you still cite his studies all the time.</p></blockquote> <p>There is evidence Dr. Thorsen committed embezzlement, which is a crime. That does not imply that his actually published research is fraudulent, and I am not aware of any evidence that the published research is fraudulent.</p> <p>For the record, I am unlikely to cite Dr. Thorsen's work because I am in a different field, but if it were ever appropriate to do so, then I would do so. The closest parallel in my work is that I have cited papers by the guy who claimed that Earth's water was due to bombardment by <a href="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/92RG02316/full">small comets</a>--the work I cited was from earlier in his career, before he went off the deep end, which he had already done by the time I started graduate school. (The link goes to the guy's review article on the subject; I haven't verified that the article text is available to all, but you can read the abstract even if you/your library doesn't have a subscription.)</p> <p>BTW, the small comet guy is a refutation of your previous claim that people who defy the mainstream get their careers cut short. He continued to have a prominent career until he suffered a stroke a decade or so after that review article was published. Authorship in <i>Reviews of Geophysics</i> is by invitation only, and it is an official journal of the American Geophysical Union, a bona fide scientific society of which I am a member. His co-author remained active in the field until the latter's untimely death (at home, in bed, of a heart attack).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355798&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qQHgiJ5hvXE9oajBuXymugh43uWncwF04PLXc6KVVcs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355798">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355799" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489759650"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>And pardon me, but who’s really against safer vaccines? Time to categorize them as a pharmaceutical along with all the associated safety &amp; efficacy requirements, strip away the 0% liability (Bye bye 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act) and let the public decide on your wonderful product.</p></blockquote> <p>Do anti-vaxxers ever do their own homework? As awful of a visual as it is, I'm beginning to embrace HDB's invocation of the human-centipede style of information funneling.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355799&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zvys6td73DL1HD4dHpnyRCsCSOQdrbRkf8t5ZHVZWBg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355799">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355800" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489760844"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>And pardon me, but who’s really against safer vaccines? Time to categorize them as a pharmaceutical along with all the associated safety &amp; efficacy requirements, strip away the 0% liability (Bye bye 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act) and let the public decide on your wonderful product.</p></blockquote> <p>You're not exactly <a href="https://www.druganddevicelawblog.com/2016/04/comment-k-case-by-case-falling-out-of.html">familiar with what</a> you're making typing noises about, are you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355800&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ht4TFnblht2pM8fekv2iaMag3EQzyXclky4lp9skreA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355800">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355801" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489765079"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I love how all the pro-vaxxers on here in the comments are not up to date on the REAL news behind Trump, RFK Jr. and the vaccine commission.</i></p> <p>This was Charles Martell {OGD)'s opportunity to <b>pass on</b> the REAL news about this non-existent commission, but we remain deprived and ininformed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355801&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8-YUA0cSq9QWyqxo6NlqroarxL1pSW4viTYEpSab148"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355801">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355802" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489766029"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Julian Frost (#20) asks,</p> <p>Oh really? Would you please post links to the studies that show this to be the case, Michael.</p> <p>MJD says,</p> <p>I've over-posted (according to Orac the unforgiving) such studies in the past and am thereafter in permanent auto-moderation.</p> <p>What's a "common name" for a naturally occurring polyisoprene that has allergenic proteins (hint: Hev-b) and is less often used in vaccine packaging?</p> <p>@ Narad (#77),</p> <p>It took over 5 years to place MJD in a killfile. </p> <p>I know you won't be reading about MJD's valid concerns but in the spirit of brotherhood and respect, I'll keep commenting as if you were.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355802&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j89vGyIc4aWPQBArkmCsq32-EYAPs6pjdMoKOslStsw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 17 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355802">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355803" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489858094"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Max King #63 - as an Australian, a doctor and a parent with kids in preschool, I disagree with your assertion that most Australians find the idea of 'no vax, no daycare' to be "offensive, disgraceful and stupid". The vast majority of Australians vaccinate. What most people would feel fits your 3 adjectives nicely, is people who selfishly put their children and others at risk because of their sanctimonious ideology. Science doesn't care what you think, and vaccine-preventable diseases don't care if your kale is organic. </p> <p>@Charles Martrell ODG #83 - we don't let the public decide on vaccines for the same reason we don't generally allow any* important decision to be made by a large group of people with no relevant training or experience, or even enough basic science education to understand the information on which such decisions should be made.</p> <p>*except elections, of course.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355803&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8dIEvOTqF5jgjs9XSVSds5oVWa246CJrVB2SDw2PyRE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Can&#039;t remember my nym">Can&#039;t remember… (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355803">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355804" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489860758"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You are free to vaccinate your children. Presumably, you do so because you believe it protects them. So why would you fear the unvaccinated? How could you in good conscience force others to submit to a medical procedure against their will? Have you ever heard of the Nuremberg Code?</p> <p>Vaccines have known risks, up to and including death. That's why the US has a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. You are free to submit your children to those risks if you wish. You are not free to force others to do so.</p> <p>"We don't let the public decide on vaccines." Oh, really? And who is "we"? I guess the answer is easier if you exclude all the medical professionals and scientists who do not share your love of vaccines, and only listen to the "officially approved experts." I wonder if you will feel the same about all their future demands for your submission.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355804&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BYd1GzcgIx_tE-8aqmfzM9JNJMr2Z5IHEykNxuVWp9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355804">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355803#comment-1355803" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Can&#039;t remember my nym">Can&#039;t remember… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355805" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489862529"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"no vax, no daycare" means a child will be excluded from day care if not vaccinated - most Australians find it offensive that the child is doubly punished for the parents' stupidity.</p> <p>Now, if you go back to my original comments at #5, then you will read "It’s quite simple – the antivaxxer’s crusade is tantamount to child abuse.", </p> <p> What that statement means is "I believe that the antivaxxers crusade is “offensive, disgraceful and stupid” and if you read my comments in the link at #5, along with Prof. Raina MacIntyre's, and Dr Sue Ieraci's you would have discovered that we all (like most Australians) have made it clear that we<br /> agree with your disapproval of "people who selfishly put their children and others at risk because of their sanctimonious ideology."</p> <p>Therefore, your comment "Science doesn’t care what you think, and vaccine-preventable diseases don’t care if your kale is organic" is ignorant, spiteful and piteous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355805&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gxZv_7DEHj2XV-uHsza74637KvXbNVfNmKbG5FocG68"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355805">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355803#comment-1355803" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Can&#039;t remember my nym">Can&#039;t remember… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355806" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489863142"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You've got to be careful with the novel genuflection to authority, Max. Sticking to the usual script will help avoid confusion. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355806&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4yRVwie79IM88SqLMqHiewpKUoKfUwuNsDr0qNTVvIk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355806">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355805#comment-1355805" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div></div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355807" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489865547"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So why would you fear the unvaccinated?</p></blockquote> <p>A really good high-quality troll would at least come up with something original and put some thought into this one. Hint: what ages are vaccines given? Why do we receive boosters? And have you ever heard of herd immunity and herd effect? </p> <blockquote><p>How could you in good conscience force others to submit to a medical procedure against their will? Have you ever heard of the Nuremberg Code?</p></blockquote> <p>Of course we have have you? Can you please illustrate how vaccines are given against one's will?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355807&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JNHKf5GqHUeUUl3v5-na1nAPMu56tCKHOOKun2lj_uY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355807">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355810" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489867922"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes, yes. We all know the human cattle theory. Aren't you supposed to be calling it "community immunity" now? Are you getting lax on your training? Under either name, it's still total bunk, as it's always been. </p> <p>And of course it deflects from the issue of why any member of the "herd" that is vaccinated is at risk, if they are "protected." Total misdirection fail. </p> <p>In any case, vaccines cannot, and will never be able to, provide so-called herd immunity--for one, because they are unlikely to provide lifelong protection, like natural infection and recovery does. </p> <p>You must not live in California, where children must be fully vaccinated to get an education. Or in Australia, where children must be fully vaccinated for their family to receive the child benefit. Or are you cleverly trying to pretend that twisting arms qualifies as "voluntary" consent?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355810&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6csbzPGs1w8P1-IdqNtAb7EsexQSsWIRvb_j7PU8C1I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355810">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355807#comment-1355807" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355808" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489865932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SM: "A really good high-quality troll would at least come up with something original and put some thought into this one"</p> <p>And they never give me a good answer on how to protect babies under age one year from measles, mumps and chicken pox. The NWO Troll is just has boring and clueless as my crazy aunt over forty years ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355808&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eBnJ7VhplwjcxibrKM0TQF3d-6FczmMsj8vBxsThwFM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355808">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355811" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489868325"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Basic hygiene, commonsense precautions, and breastfeeding from a healthy mother who has acquired lifelong immunity from natural infection and recovery is your best bet.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355811&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RcEl3tJxxrNTAJJ3h4XKdBNrropZSvt-P2AtM3-x4PQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355811">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355808#comment-1355808" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355809" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489866060"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, well, here is one really good reason to fear the unvaccinated:<br /><a href="http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-sspe-20150624-story.html">http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-sspe-20150624-story…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355809&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3KSmxZLq8ek_prCWn3Xu0aXznv7HpfsVidw8zO8sjBo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355809">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355812" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489870248"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Yes, yes. We all know the human cattle theory. Aren’t you supposed to be calling it “community immunity” now?</p></blockquote> <p>Aww does poor wittle snookums object to be likened to animals? Get over it snowflake, we're a herd. Please bestow more of your ignorance why there isn't herd immunity or herd effect. I'm game.</p> <blockquote><p>And of course it deflects from the issue of why any member of the “herd” that is vaccinated is at risk, if they are “protected.” Total misdirection fail.</p></blockquote> <p>Epi 101 fail on your part is more like it. Vaccines aren't 100% efficacious, infants too young to be vaccinated can't get, you know vaccinated along with medically-fragile people. Measles was no longer endemic in the U.S. since the early noughties until boneheads like you decided "natural immunity" is so much better. The former didn't happen by accident or even with a perfect vaccine.</p> <blockquote><p>In any case, vaccines cannot, and will never be able to, provide so-called herd immunity–for one, because they are unlikely to provide lifelong protection, like natural infection and recovery does.</p></blockquote> <p>But yet full series of measles, rubella and polio do just that. Another epi fail on your part but given what a boring troll you are, not surprised.</p> <blockquote><p>You must not live in California, where children must be fully vaccinated to get an education. Or in Australia, where children must be fully vaccinated for their family to receive the child benefit. Or are you cleverly trying to pretend that twisting arms qualifies as “voluntary” consent?</p></blockquote> <p>More speshul snowflake syndrome. That isn't forced vaccination sweepea. Learn words; they matter.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355812&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bxhSEOTlv_i597eRtolGPXjYCu87X8bNVM0AjwY48C0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355812">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355813" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489871204"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Have you written any books or blog posts on being a good mother, Science Mom? Based on your response, I think people deserve a warning--since it appears that derision and condescension is your recommended method for dealing with adversity.</p> <p>Why don't you go ahead and tell us what percentage of vaccinated people are at risk of contracting the disease they were vaccinated for, SM. And of those, how many in the industrialized world are at risk of serious lasting damage from that infection.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355813&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PGkgbSAK7YYDpqKJjtRPBWOn0u4KwfRxd0SkU7GVJx4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355813">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355812#comment-1355812" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355814" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489874250"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Have you written any books or blog posts on being a good mother, Science Mom? Based on your response, I think people deserve a warning–since it appears that derision and condescension is your recommended method for dealing with adversity.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh praytelll which other pro-science female blogger do you think I am? Because we all must be the same person flaccid small-thinkers like you.</p> <blockquote><p>Why don’t you go ahead and tell us what percentage of vaccinated people are at risk of contracting the disease they were vaccinated for, SM. And of those, how many in the industrialized world are at risk of serious lasting damage from that infection.</p></blockquote> <p>Could you be any more vague? And while you're at it why don't you stick to your original claims. You seem to have a very bad habit of trying to deflect from your chasmic insufficiencies. Ireland and FOIA anyone?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355814&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6wh3n6XCE1TFKdQ7zDQUXvKMLGZZCpFfWVX7UILCwg0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355814">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355815" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489875770"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I asked a very straightforward question, SM. And it does not surprise me at all that you do not want to answer it. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355815&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4EcUNlEXtfiVyEzxtrpVbTqy-rFuc-4Rz-F9d_0LusE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355815">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355814#comment-1355814" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355816" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489875988"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Which one is the straightforward question? You can't stick to a single train of thought so it doesn't surprise me you can't ask a straightforward question then proclaim some kind of victory when it goes unanswered.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355816&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QT8y-JGxi4-aJVoR7J7eq01yRjfoCUP1t8nex3Q3SZ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355816">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355817" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489878583"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Charles Martel #83<br /></p><blockquote>and let the public decide on your wonderful product </blockquote> <p>We have. Most parents choose to protect their children with vaccines.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355817&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GAJrQ4kQFHUvcXm_p9lVHUtUIhR2jUF2PwAyULMeAh4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355817">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355818" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489878632"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Reporter #92<br /></p><blockquote>and You are free to submit your children to those risks if you wish. </blockquote> <p> You are <b>not</b> free to submit <i>my</i> children to the risks of preventable infectious diseases in a classroom setting.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355818&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qR4K9M_I2GDqbmwacbrHdV-JZppA7lmvedvcbIms59k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355818">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355821" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489880539"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So your child is vaccinated, but NOT protected from risk? I thought that was the point of vaccinating.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355821&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NMEl6mpihEMiFzA39cHAycQXSjKwzY_s-_gfvt-xFxY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355821">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355818#comment-1355818" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355819" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489879118"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "Basic hygiene, commonsense precautions, and breastfeeding from a healthy mother"</p> <p>And the idiocies continue! My fully breastfed six month old got chicken pox. Obviously you reply will be because I was not healthy. Pray tell... what is the criteria for the perfectly healthy mother?</p> <p>By the way, you need to provide PubMed indexed articles by reputable qualified researchers to support your answer. You will also need to provide the verifiable citations to support the rest of your silly claims on how to protect a child under age one year.</p> <p>By the way, NWO Troll, what evidence do we have that you were a "good mother"? I believe the "Nirvana Fallacy" and teenage to thirty years old offspring are not compatible.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355819&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QkXP5y2IijXh7dq_k5H6PnjkEwWT_y-Waj4dICnf0_I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355819">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355820" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489879609"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chemmomo: "You are not free to submit my children to the risks of preventable infectious diseases in a classroom setting"</p> <p>Apparently “Basic hygiene, commonsense precautions, and breastfeeding from a healthy mother” according to her are what can prevent a measles infection and resultant death from SSPE from happening. Isn't that cute?</p> <p>Actually it is absolutely stupefying idiocy to the nth degree. This is why she is a troll. And an idiot. And completely clueless. </p> <p>Plus she is incredibly lazy. It is apparently much to [whine]... h...a...r....d...[/whine] to use the handy dandy search box at the top of this page to see whatever silly trope she drags out from the land of zombie arguments has been addressed (some are over a decade old!).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355820&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h9eTPrTqAwKRvSK1-e9OZ3VxhQGS4D65akphepy1m7c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355820">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355822" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489883043"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "So your child is vaccinated, but NOT protected from risk?"</p> <p>What about children too young to be vaccinated? So do tell me how to protect a child under age one from measles, mumps and chicken pox. </p> <p>Be sure to provide some actual evidence other than the super idiotic “Basic hygiene, commonsense precautions, and breastfeeding from a healthy mother." Just provide the PMIDs to support your answer.</p> <p>By the way, in 1968 I got mumps for a second time. My mother was surprised. Apparently "natural immunity" is not perfect! Which makes me ask: why do you think vaccines should be better than the diseases in providing immunity? Oh, wait... another Nirvana Fallacy.</p> <p>You are really a very lame troll. Those "arguments" are so very old and stale.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355822&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4SJYn6Qs_AJwl7CkGQjB-iQn8XVlpHtXpE0JaOg999Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355822">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355823" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489884069"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Reporter, do you read the replies to your own comments?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355823&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RLSFSr8LdFmIuSZAZFiFqyeuvdz8dEHesLESPtzmyZ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355823">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355826" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489885969"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My question was not answered. So let me ask you: What is the percentage risk of your child contracting the infection he was vaccinated for--meaning the vaccine fails to protect him? And if the vaccine fails to protect him, and he contracts the infection, what is the percentage risk your child will die or suffer serious lasting harm from the infection, as opposed to recovering fully? Pick your disease and answer with some numbers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355826&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qdwqufDUz-uyBRy2MeM0Lx7D9qFmi7x5n9oHB_gigDI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355826">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355823#comment-1355823" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355824" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489885234"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "So your child is vaccinated, but NOT protected from risk? I thought that was the point of vaccinating."</p> <p>Again, please provide your proven plan to protect children under age one year from measles, mumps and chicken pox. Make sure that instead of "argument from assertion" that you actually provide PubMed index studies by reputable qualified researchers you method actually works.</p> <p>I ask this as someone who had to deal with a six month baby who only had breast milk with chicken pox, a year before the varicella vaccine was approved. What scientifically proven method exists to prevent the two terrible weeks we endured with a baby in lots of pain? </p> <p>Make sure you provide verifiable citations. Just give us the PMIDs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355824&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4JZsqZqgjl8ftoB7nQVs94KT79siYV6-_0xqhPQBkxY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355824">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355825" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489885600"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Anybody who claims there's no such thing as herd immunity is committed to the view--since the arithmetic is identical--that there's no such thing as a subcritical mass of plutonium; assemble any amount, no matter how small, and it will explode.</p> <p>OK, start tap-dancing. Why doesn't it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355825&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YswmNYa1wLr9l2BZQkNAyWCMBsNt7_rusU-NVFqCvnM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355825">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355827" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489886351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "What is the percentage risk of your child contracting the infection he was vaccinated for–meaning the vaccine fails to protect him?"</p> <p>What is the percentage of American children vaccinated for measles, mumps, rubella and vacicella? It is a simple number that is easily verified. </p> <p>It is also pertinent to answering the question I posed to you a few times. Do please provide the PubMed indexed papers by reputable qualified researchers to support your answer on how to protect babies under age one year from measles, mumps and chicken pox.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355827&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="H1aTOzTB6kKj42nr8-uvD3hdEj35g33CLbPLV-Fq0fM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355827">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355828" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489886517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Crud... it is too late at night, and some crucial bits was missing in my comment (I thunk it, but did not type it!). The relevant is in bold:</p> <p>What is the percentage of American children <b>under age one year are</b> vaccinated for measles, mumps, rubella and vacicella? It is a simple number that is easily verified.</p> <p>It is also pertinent to answering the question I posed to you a few times. Do please provide the PubMed indexed papers by reputable qualified researchers to support your answer on how to protect babies under age one year from measles, mumps and chicken pox.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355828&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c8j03hx8yQ-f31VdZ-5t_S3sb4qkPhHsN6q8bhCJ9hk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355828">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355829" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489888671"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Reporter<br /></p><blockquote> Pick your disease and answer with some numbers</blockquote> <p>Pertussis. Calfiornia, 2016: <a href="https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_2017-1-23.pdf">https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis_report_20…</a></p> <p>My county’s one of the “higher than statewide average.” </p> <p>That was an easy year. Then there’s 2010, <a href="https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2010-12-15.pdf">https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/PertussisReport2010…</a><br /> 20 cases per 10.000 Californians, 38% hospitalized, 10 deaths.</p> <p>OK, so my children are no longer infants (and therefore less at risk for death), but I still don’t understand why you think they should hack up their lungs for three months because you are afraid of. . . not even sure what it is that you are afraid of.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355829&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-BxqeBfUr-RbctSPL-h6yu_bEK7EAnmSBArS0nenAn4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355829">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355840" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489926948"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The info you provided doesn't mention the failure rate of the vaccine. There are a lot of pertussis vaccines on the CDC schedule: at 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, 15 months, 4 years, 11 years. The CDC claims the vaccine is "effective" but does not provide lasting protection. All vaccines have known risks that are not disputed. </p> <p>There is research that suggests the vaccine is provides no protection at all--in one study, showing that 81% of confirmed pertussis infections occurred in children who had had all the CDC recommended vaccinations, and were infected at the same rate as unvaccinated children. It's discussed in this video. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4fZbWh_b08">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4fZbWh_b08</a> </p> <p>Based on the numbers you provided, the risk of contracting a serious (although likely not deadly) case of pertussis in 2016 in California was about .0000024. By contrast, the risk of dying in a car crash in California is about .000078 -- a lot higher. The risk of dying from pertussis at any age was minuscule.</p> <p>Taking the worse year, 2010, the risk of contracting a serious (although likely not deadly) case of pertussis was about .000008 -- just slightly higher than the risk of dying in a car crash. Again, the risks of death from pertussis were minuscule.</p> <p>Here's another interesting video, which discusses one non-vaccinating parent's experience with a whooping cough outbreak at school. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeg3QAVbWo">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeg3QAVbWo</a></p> <p>Here's the first video in a series discussing why natural infection and recovery from pertussis, although unpleasant, is superior to vaccination, which at best, provides transient protection from the expression of pertussis symptoms. It can give you a starting point for issues you may want to investigate further. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYY4QMldXE0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYY4QMldXE0</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355840&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ghhmEtCU3LMUx-LhU1kTqlgGgGx4ctv4-LVlJYNZV_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355840">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355829#comment-1355829" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemmomo (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355830" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489889984"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO @94.</p> <p>I would cheerfully genuflect to some of the world's greatest scientists and thinkers; it would be my way of showing them my deepest admiration and gratitude for revealing the secrets of nature and human kind. Hence I would not take offence if I was identified as genuflecting. However, I am disappointed when a silly, naive, petulant person attempts to be clever (and I assume insulting) by the misuse of that noble word., To further embarrass yourself you qualified the noun "genuflection" with the nonsensical, and inapt adjective "novel". </p> <p>You do write some very childish, and often ignorant comments. It seems that you attempt to invigorate your ego, your sense of self, by being an invisible smart-arse who seeks to antagonise people with pseudo-intellectual gibberish and convoluted petulance.</p> <p>The challenge for you, if you wish to take it, is to grow up.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355830&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8C2_mip8jeuu7yqvDxC2QCx40XHGo6Fg2El-Bifij4s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355830">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355831" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489890471"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>How could you in good conscience force others to submit to a medical procedure against their will? Have you ever heard of the Nuremberg Code?</i></p> <p>Oh look, some numpty has <b>heard</b> of the Nuremberg Code but not <b>read</b> it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355831&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sdecVqkF9kXqawmxwKkNxeaIHB7msfJ6MusbFRcjhdE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355831">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355832" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489895163"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Great post Orac, and thanks for chanelling Leonard. What a guy!!!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355832&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3mpm5ZPdssT8Ge3bTeMzrABxpyyTVxEbYQJ6xg1tzxE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NZ Sceptic (not verified)</span> on 18 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355832">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355833" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489899384"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Max King #93:</p> <blockquote><p>“no vax, no daycare” means a child will be excluded from day care if not vaccinated – most Australians find it offensive that the child is doubly punished for the parents’ stupidity.</p></blockquote> <p>1) Citation/Supporting Evidence needed for your claim that "most Australians" find it offensive.<br /> 2) As I said to Beth Clarkson on an earlier thread:<br /> It's not about punishment.<br /> It's about <b>PROTECTION</b>.<br /> It's about the fact that intentionally unvaccinated and undervaccinated children are more susceptible to diseases and more likely to spread them to those who are immunosuppressed and those too young to be vaccinated.<br /> Whinging about punishment is just a red herring.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355833&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YZ3Efl0mJ-bShW15suIphdF7mH3fNUD0Vav19dOes4A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355833">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355834" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489900555"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Please read carefully -</p> <p>Due to the parent's' stupidity: -<br /> Punishment 1: child is unprotected against preventable diseases;<br /> Punishment 2: child is barred from attending child care where it enjoys friends and activities.<br /> Therefore *the child is doubly punished for the parents’ stupidity* and your diatribe is misguided. </p> <p>A previous link provides responses from a cross-section of Oz parents.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355834&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lOSVYpcMXKYdd2ZpOUU6Z5Jjybl2wXr0_29i9wfOqLI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355834">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355833#comment-1355833" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355835" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489905752"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> We all know the human cattle theory. Aren’t you supposed to be calling it “community immunity” now? Are you getting lax on your training? Under either name, it’s still total bunk, as it’s always been. </p></blockquote> <p>I have the scar from the smallpox shot, and I ate several sugar cubes with pretty pink dots on them, and now you and your children don't, because smallpox is extinct in the wild, and polio is seriously endangered.</p> <p>The only 'total bunk' here is the crap you post, you freaking idiot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355835&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NvM1MiSDwsmzQTl8fekOI5AMurZEJgH5ujJNYtj3scE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355835">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355836" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489916174"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Or better yet, have him explain what happened to Rinderpest....not exactly a situation where one can credit "sanitation" for eradicating the disease.</p> <p>The troll also ignores the basic science of immunology, where some percentage of people won't gain immunity from getting the disease in the first place - since those people can get infected multiple times. </p> <p>Also, "natural" immunity and community immunity (or herd immunity) break down when new, non-immune people are added to any population (new babies being born), which is one reason why diseases were (and are) cyclical - a mass outbreak would infect large numbers of people, reaching the critical mass to break the disease infection chain and the outbreak would end.</p> <p>Over time, with new, non-immune people added to the population, once the immunity threshold is broken, the disease would take hold once again &amp; there would be another large outbreak (punctuated by mass pandemics when new strains emerged or new populations were exposed to otherwise unknown diseases).</p> <p>With the advent of vaccines &amp; mass vaccinations, it was now possible to prevent disease transmission and outbreaks from occurring in the first place. If a disease like measles (which has not other hosts but humans) can't infect anyone in a given population, then the disease dies out.</p> <p>Even in a small percentage of the population isn't vaccinated or doesn't gain immunity from the vaccine, enough people around them are immune so they never get exposed to the disease.</p> <p>This is exactly how eradication works. If you read about the ring-vaccination strategy used to finally eradicate Smallpox, you'd gain a much deeper understanding about how diseases spread &amp; how they can be contained and finally gotten rid of entirely.</p> <p>Diseases that also have animal hosts are nearly impossible to eradicate, but we can at least use vaccines to prevent transmission as much as possible.</p> <p>None of this is rocket science - it's basic immunology and epidemiology. One only needs to look at the transmission profile and history of measles - one of, if not the most contagious disease on the planet, to see exactly how vaccination has been successful in reducing the incidence of this disease to near 0 in most developed countries and significantly across the developing world.</p> <p>If a vaccine like the MMR wasn't hugely effective in preventing mass transmission of a disease as contagious as measles, it would be evident nearly immediately.....we can see how quickly elimination can occur, when we see over 90,000 cases in a mass outbreak in the United States in the early 1990s, and we go to complete elimination of domestic measles in less than 10 years.</p> <p>We also now see the elimination of Rubella in the Western Hemisphere. </p> <p>For someone not to recognize the mechanisms of vaccines and the attendant successes, is truly to be an ignorant fool.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355836&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HHm9GqrYO2ha5bFRudqA9qSYx4HisSdAGo9FX4qott0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355836">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355837" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489919479"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Pick your disease and answer with some numbers.</p></blockquote> <p>Dumbass. Different diseases, different vaccine schedules, effectiveness. What is the endemicity/epidemic circulation?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355837&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KGfpdJM-YWwjIMSK1_GQLnBlZHGnAo8HOm9OhwUm8WA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355837">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355838" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489921375"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> For someone not to recognize the mechanisms of vaccines and the attendant successes, is truly to be an ignorant fool. </p></blockquote> <p>What I find slightly interesting is that ignorant fools come in two opposing flavors.</p> <p>You have the NWO Reporter fool, who denies what is plainly obvious to the most casual observer, and you have the MJD fool, who teachs "allergy-induced regressive autism", yet nobody else on the planet believes such thing exist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355838&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r79fmxH1UyyPkciRHQH1sR47nM_SOMqc7LU7GkYRL1Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355838">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355839" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489923073"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Anti-vaxers hide their ignorance of science behind a veil of conspiracy...which is obviously what our new resident troll has done.</p> <p>Stack his assertions of conspiracy against the actual science and experience of those in the field, who actually do the research, deal with the outbreaks, and understand the basic tenants of immunology, biology, epidemiology, and you see truly how ridiculous her statements are.</p> <p>You take something as complex as the last major measles outbreak in the United States, where more than 90,000 cases were reported, including a number of deaths.</p> <p>This happened in what was assumed to be a highly vaccinated population - but further research showed that the recommendations at the time were ultimately insufficient to reach the immunity threshold for the US population.</p> <p>Adding the extra dose of MMR &amp; the subsequent mass vaccination campaign that took place from the early 1990s, allowed the US to eliminate domestic measles in less than 10 years...meaning there was no circulating or endemic measles in the entire population.</p> <p>For a disease which will infect between 75 - 85% of everyone (not immune) who comes in contact with it, can exist in the air &amp; on surfaces for hours, and is readily transmissible from person to person, that says quite a bit for the effectiveness of the vaccine.</p> <p>As for longevity of the immunity given, all current research shows that the measles component, at minimum, lasts for decades....enough, at this point, to continue to prevent outbreaks of this highly contagious disease in vaccinated populations to the extent that we saw historically.</p> <p>Again, this is both confirmed by the actual research and the experiences that we've had over the last three decades...all confirming the validity of the success of the vaccine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355839&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MEFNyNorSRS7uC3qlLCaCVV3ctMeU_MwosS6Tcm9PNs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355839">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355841" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489955401"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The CDC claims the vaccine is “effective” but does not provide lasting protection.</p></blockquote> <p>Neither does wild-type infection and the child suffers far more.</p> <blockquote><p>It’s discussed in this video.</p></blockquote> <p>What is a journal article too hard for you? I'm going to guess you don't have a clue what attack rate is and disease attenuation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355841&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HdzoYUBNFpFc246LbhRGjy79_uNM5EakmcUx9mpeuDQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355841">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355842" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489956226"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Basic hygiene, commonsense precautions, and breastfeeding from a healthy mother who has acquired lifelong immunity from natural infection and recovery is your best bet.</i></p> <p>And yet, this didn't work for children of any age before 1963 (measles), 1967 (mumps) or 1995 (chickenpox).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355842&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N5KhF195Oukf6CBD6He5ScI1EjUba-H1QzXXER-mcyY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355842">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355843" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489957836"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No one in the industrialized world was afraid of those diseases in the 1950s and 1960s, before the vaccines--they were considered a normal right of passage in childhood, and most children never even required any medical care. The objective is not to avoid those infections. The objective is to contract and recover from them naturally, thereby generally acquiring lifelong immunity, a stronger immune system, and increased resistance to certain cancers later in life.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355843&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xJ5r_cRPHcDK_onfcUhOZec_zTxujtwe2_swvcSITUs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355843">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355842#comment-1355842" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355844" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489961032"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And my anti-vaxx bingo card is full now. There are certain people you come across and hope they aren't in charge of any lives.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355844&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6w42zDnRSfihtcORssZojxQErkcvGZGgbYKFhvrWDZU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355844">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355845" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489964384"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is it time to start making fun of her artistic endeavors yet?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355845&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LF9MDJ3ur1686QVcwgGHFNeqlwRRjht_0ytOrsdoOik"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355845">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355846" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489964716"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There is research that suggests the vaccine is provides no protection at all–in one study, showing that 81% of confirmed pertussis infections occurred in children who had had all the CDC recommended vaccinations, and were infected at the same rate as unvaccinated children. It’s discussed in this video.</p></blockquote> <p>A youtube video by Forrest Maready shot apparently in front of his living room curtain). The qualifications that Forrest Maready has to discuss vaccinations and other medical issues are ... exactly none. But that is OK, his videos are just his incredible opinion. His opinions are exactly that: without credibility.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355846&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Kw2Mtwp5xNvSTLwMsDt-Pfy7O2NKnPkyZyIQd2XCmWU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355846">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355847" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489965502"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Comparing the intelligence of the troll to that of a sack of hammers leads to the sack of hammers emerging victorious.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355847&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DLnvA-tH3YekwTiM57RX3-NB3FwLVQfK2Do-_mm8sCQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355847">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355848" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489968333"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>No one in the industrialized world was afraid of those diseases in the 1950s and 1960s, before the vaccines–they were considered a normal right of passage in childhood, and most children never even required any medical care.</p></blockquote> <p>They were considered a normal right of passage, solely because nothing could be done to stop children catching them. I well remember the lack of medical care when my younger brother caught measles - just a week in hospital. </p> <blockquote><p>The objective is to contract and recover from them naturally, thereby generally acquiring lifelong immunity, a stronger immune system, and increased resistance to certain cancers later in life.</p></blockquote> <p>You need to carefully explain to my mother how this works. She had chickenpox as a child and then caught it again in her 30s when I brought it home from school. She later told me she had never been so sick until she got the cancer that killed her.</p> <p>In fact NWO, you are completely full of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355848&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HJ_gA4x_C7Lw4I6FY8__Y8XPnLZ0tOlghF4tgtnh1Yo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355848">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355849" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489968380"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dr. Hickie,</p> <p>This Epic fail (<a href="https://youtu.be/8-xuIyIQ2_U">https://youtu.be/8-xuIyIQ2_U</a>) is a lot more entertaining than the epic fail gracing our comment section here. I'm pretty sure you'll find a good character in the movies to compare to the epic fail here.</p> <p>Al</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355849&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HLpkJ-O9D4eziKJkfjUpRWX_kL4-6lsXpvbINNdTh-M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alain (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355849">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355850" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489973064"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The objective is to contract and recover from them naturally, thereby generally acquiring lifelong immunity, a stronger immune system, and increased resistance to certain cancers later in life.</p></blockquote> <p>1) This is the Naturalistic Fallacy writ large. Even very healthy children died or suffered consequences like blindness, deafness, sterility, lung damage, liver damage, brain damage or general organ damage from these diseases.<br /> 2) Measles is known to destroy immune memory, meaning that people who get infections and gain immunity to them get that immunity wiped out by a measles infection and become susceptible to them again.<br /> 3) There is little more than circumstantial evidence that these illnesses prevent cancer in later life.<br /> 4) Hepatitis B can cause liver cancer and hpv can cause cervical and other cancers. Immunisation, by giving immunity to these diseases, stops these cancers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355850&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WXL1PHANx3xsmL-UY4q4XfS1tiaF36PVax35BSFAcqE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355850">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355851" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489974084"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) False, post 1950. At most, extremely rare, occurring in people who appeared to be healthy and well-nourished, but had underlying unidentified health conditions or nutritional deficiencies.<br /> 2) Speculative. Not a risk for healthy, well-nourished children.<br /> 3) False. There is considerable evidence that these infections prevent certain cancers later in life.<br /> 4) Vaccines do not confer immunity. Babies in the industrialized world have virtually no risk of Hep B unless the mother is infected. The mother can be and generally is tested. The Hep B vaccine given to infants is among the greatest crimes against humanity when it comes to vaccines.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355851&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LH6nbPELbt2Moed2YE_ny_bF8WXLQFWrtw-eq5hVaD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355851">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355850#comment-1355850" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355852" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489975297"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"2) Measles is known to destroy immune memory,"</p> <p>A very important comment such as this requires confirmation. At the risk of being helpful I offer the following link:<br /> Long-term measles-induced immunomodulation increases overall childhood infectious disease mortality<br /><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4823017/">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4823017/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355852&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xlkm_DPMD-lvAKptvBxi3v4oaGhXIBx1OMuoYhZiqUo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355852">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355850#comment-1355850" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355855" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489978932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Measles vaccines were introduced 50 years ago and were followed by striking reductions in child morbidity and mortality. Measles control is now recognized as one of the most successful public health interventions ever undertaken."</p> <p>How can anyone trust a study that commences with such blatantly false propaganda? The most "striking reductions" in deaths from measles and other common diseases by a very wide margin occurred from the late 19th century through the first half of the 20th century in the industrialized world, long before the measles vaccine. The vaccine was introduced at the tail end of a steadily declining trend in deaths that had been going on for nearly a century, and presumably would have continued, with or without the vaccine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355855&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FFBmPC3XT_BKY5LOEzi-dawLgUCt_I5x8mEuVG4vX2o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355855">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355852#comment-1355852" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355856" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489979206"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Where's your evidence?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355856&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1f5omr7EO9hif0PuYKpLxp3ciCuw71h_apGqrFIlOC8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355856">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355855#comment-1355855" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355858" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489980401"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's one. <a href="http://www.vaccinationcouncil">www.vaccinationcouncil</a> (dot) org/2014/06/24/measles-and-measles-vaccines-fourteen-things-to-consider-by-roman-bystrianyk-co-author-dissolving-illusions-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/</p> <p>Or do your own search for graphs of mortality rates from around 1900-present. Not truncated graphs only going back to 1950 or so, because those are misleading. And not incidence rates--mortality rates.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355858&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CCeYNuDRasr4YmO0xorZIaDq7rREYOnmutXICOCH26U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355858">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355856#comment-1355856" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div></div></div></div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355853" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489975952"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO @139</p> <p>Evidence please - or am I correct in assessing your silly comments as hallucinations?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355853&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k4cDZigmoaHMvqzLTm-l0M5Ra_NrvLaetzDjKJQdQ-Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355853">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355854" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489978735"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1)<br /></p><blockquote>At most, extremely rare, occurring in people who appeared to be healthy and well-nourished, but had underlying unidentified health conditions or nutritional deficiencies.</blockquote> <p>Extremely rare thanks to vaccines. And you're wrong. Dana McCaffrey was breastfed and well-nourished. Pertussis still killed her. Ditto Olivia Dahl and measles.<br /> 2)<br /></p><blockquote>Speculative.</blockquote> <p>Not speculative. I was going to post a link but I see Max King beat me to it.<br /> 3)<br /></p><blockquote>There is considerable evidence that these infections prevent certain cancers later in life.</blockquote> <p>Then Post this evidence.<br /> 4)Vaccines do not confer immunity<br /> Every single disease we vaccinate against has seen a massive fall in incidence. When vaccine programs break down, the diseases recur. Syria had a polio outbreak after the start of the civil war. When the Soviet Union disintegrated, diphtheria came roaring back. Care to explain how that happened if vaccines don't work?</p> <blockquote><p>Babies in the industrialized world have virtually no risk of Hep B unless the mother is infected.</p></blockquote> <p>Hepatitis B virus can survive outside the body for up to a week. Children bite and scratch each other, share food utensils, get cuts and scrapes on playgrounds etc. The risk is low <b>because we vaccinate</b>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355854&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0ofF1z0rsiVRYib9hAQvSSrVzUHvzGV6lHiHVr6Gl_I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355854">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355857" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489979431"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The most “striking reductions” in deaths from measles and other common diseases by a very wide margin occurred from the late 19th century through the first half of the 20th century</p></blockquote> <p>Nice little bait and switch there, NWO Reporter. From the first paragraph of the extract:</p> <blockquote><p>Immunosuppression after measles is known to predispose people to opportunistic infections for a period of several weeks to months. Using population-level data, we show that measles has a more prolonged effect on host resistance, extending over 2 to 3 years.</p></blockquote> <p>So the measles took out immune memory, rendering people susceptible to dying from other infections.</p> <blockquote><p>The vaccine was introduced at the tail end of a steadily declining trend in deaths that had been going on for nearly a century, and presumably would have continued, with or without the vaccine.</p></blockquote> <p>Just because medical science had got better at preventing death from measles doesn't mean it was going away, or that the decline would continue.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355857&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nI772dN3KfIqpteFmeuXR8ZXcOhfkUmKHYP_7Sied-0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 19 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355857">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355859" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489985294"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>increased resistance to certain cancers later in life.</i></p> <p>That line of bafflegab was all covered <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/03/07/how-aborted-fetal-cells-in-vaccines-saved-lives/comment-page-1/#comment-459527">a few weeks ago</a>. Vinu is more fun about it -- he actually believes the stuff he spouts, and is less of a gutless gobsh1te when shown to be wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355859&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WQs0qHqWXHS16CLFYTivxuud05bInTPLJT16ZSauXqs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355859">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355865" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490001851"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LOL. "Shown to be wrong." I guess if your definition of 'wrong' is: "I don't like what those studies found, and therefore I choose to disregard them." :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355865&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_9iAKG26n_GqoyTUBUthv69sCoLpWjEONHtMTZqHcfk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355865">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355859#comment-1355859" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355860" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489987106"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The most “striking reductions” in deaths from measles and other common diseases by a very wide margin occurred from the late 19th century through the first half of the 20th century in the industrialized world, long before the measles vaccine. The vaccine was introduced at the tail end of a steadily declining trend in deaths that had been going on for nearly a century, and presumably would have continued, with or without the vaccine.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh the old mortality and morbidity confusion lie. WHo would have guessed from an anti-vaxxer.</p> <blockquote><p>Here’s one. <a href="http://www.vaccinationcouncil">http://www.vaccinationcouncil</a> (dot) org/2014/06/24/measles-and-measles-vaccines-fourteen-things-to-consider-by-roman-bystrianyk-co-author-dissolving-illusions-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/</p></blockquote> <p>Roman Bystrianyk's qualifications to write about vaccination are a BS in Engineering and an MS in Computer Science. I am deeply impressed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355860&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1me70VRZjHO78mCobu4rUXmpJa5e-R5e0dtVJ2OWICA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355860">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355861" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489988710"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>We must admire NWO reporter's tireless efforts to insult reality. To duck and weave and slither and leap over and around and under reality shows a bulldog-like tenacity to capture an audience to feed her perverse ego. NWO reporter is surely a wild imagination fuelled by diabolical hallucinations.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355861&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pf6Ib2xgIFsKACf_6LLs5LPP6DPBA31DuJmXIVbJku8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Max King (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355861">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355860#comment-1355860" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355862" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489989697"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Roman Bystrianyk’s qualifications to write about vaccination are a BS in Engineering and an MS in Computer Science.</i></p> <p>My first qualification was in theoretical physics, the second one was in psychology, but I've never let that hold me back from writing and getting published about (say) mercury neurotoxicity (or anything else that comes along). So I have t deprecate the idea that credentials are an indicator of expertise.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355862&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g_9W81Myzm6k1rdQzgZ7sadvfrnAaszIh8wT2CmfqJk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355862">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355866" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490002237"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does bloviating constitute "refuting the evidence" in theoretical physics, too? :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355866&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="n7wRPzMaJFuITbdRZecMco5snF6_7uenghb1BZLwMZI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355866">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355862#comment-1355862" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355863" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489992710"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm really amazed at NWO. Obviously, she doesn't really remember the 50s and 60s. I very well remember the 60s and my mother and grandfather's huge relief when the measles, mumps and rubella vaccines, then the MMR, became available. I have my grandmother's letters from WWII - the 3 years my grandfather was overseas. The first year and third year, my mom and uncle had 1 - 2 colds. The second year, my mom brought home mumps, then measles from school. My uncle nearly died from the measles due to high fever. My mom missed 1/3 of the school year due to a cold about every other week the rest of the year. No change in diet, exercise, exposure to other children. Only the measles. </p> <p>My GP grandfather, who practiced from the 1930s to the 1980s, made sure we got every vaccine available because he KNEW and SAW what happened to "well-nourished, healthy children". I have his daybook where he recorded home visits - along with the blotched pages where he cried when he recorded a child's death from VPD. And, true, very few children went to the hospital for measles, mumps, rubella, etc. Hospitals were very expensive and doctors commonly made house calls. There were a lot more community nurses, too.</p> <p>But obviously, according to NWO, the children who died weren't meant to live. And, it's also very nice that she can afford to live on one income when a family is in 21 day quarantine (which is extended every time a new case in the family starts) and SOMEONE has to stay home with the kids. </p> <p>And I HAD those disease, but only developed "natural immunity" to rubella. So NWO is wrong - natural immunity isn't "life-long". But then, she's wrong about so many things. Sad, really.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355863&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2g2AXsdSK9oUDNbNIVoZtqSMUxlqYzelyvi2L86tyr8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355863">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355864" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489998610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And yet researchers who studied this drop in overall mortality rates, related to other vaccine preventable diseases, found it across multiple countries, including developing ones...which is why their hypothesis that measles damages or resets the immune system is a viable one.</p> <p>I have yet to see any information from the resident troll that measles or any other VPD is "beneficial."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355864&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EFlG91pZ6gEY4nfxAKuF9q90OdDTgcCetW-awydtn4E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355864">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355867" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490002715"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In other anti-vax news..</p> <p>RFK jr's group plans a rally in Washington DC next Thursday and Mike Adams ( Natural News) will provide support, urging his followers to phone bomb officials and DJT. </p> <p>They'll never stop will they?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355867&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tb_djV6i0jhQ238D3gCnX0da8w8wv6SyFbjUeTaPfiU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355867">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355868" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490003639"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, the resident troll ignores the bold-faced fact that incidence rates didn't decline until after mass vaccination.</p> <p>Of course mortality rates dropped, upon the utilization of modern medical treatments. Using iron lungs to keep kids from dying of polio or antibiotics to treat secondary infections, like pneumonia.</p> <p>No modern treatment, however, could prevent SSPE, sterility, blindness or deafness, or deaths and disability from CRS, for instance.</p> <p>In fact, during the 1960's Rubella epidemic, more than 10,000 deaths were attributed to the disease - most of them babies.</p> <p>And again, these diseases were not considered "benign." They were considered inevitable. Parents just had to hope that their child was one of those who didn't suffer life-long injury from the disease.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355868&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ouHofMyxDt_llpwFTeCu7Ia_LHY0SCtRjsegdKZJsIU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355868">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355869" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490004895"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The mortality rates did not drop due to "modern medical treatments." They dropped due to vast improvements in nutrition, sanitation and living conditions implemented in late 19th and early 20th centuries.</p> <p>You have provided no evidence that, even though mortality rates dramatically declined prior to the vaccines, serious lasting harm from the infections did not. On its face, it's nonsensical.</p> <p>Your rubella scare stories are false. <a href="http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/false-government-rubella-scare-stories-only-20000-percent-overstated">http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/false-government-rubella-s…</a></p> <p>The criteria for polio diagnosis was changed dramatically shortly after the vaccine was licensed, resulting in an illusory 90% reduction in polio rates. Iron lungs are still around--we call them ventilators.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355869&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="b3U9AYZrEvGbgxtZgtRxjMYpy03rHD6PJuTpY_d5DkM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355869">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355868#comment-1355868" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355870" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490005499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Please, try citing some actual medical information instead of Miller.</p> <p><a href="http://www.asha.org/PRPSpecificTopic.aspx?folderid=8589934680&amp;section=Causes">http://www.asha.org/PRPSpecificTopic.aspx?folderid=8589934680&amp;section=C…</a></p> <p>Just an example - just because kids didn't die of these diseases to the extent that they used to, didn't mean that kids didn't still suffer the side effects of the diseases.</p> <p>You really are an idiot, aren't you?</p> <p>Also, in the developing world, we see the same drop in incidence after mass vaccination, that we saw in the US &amp; other developed countries.</p> <p>You want to argue mortality rates &amp; claim that sanitation had something to do with it? How about antibiotics, which basically wiped out Scarlett Fever and prevented people from dying of pneumonia due to secondary infections?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355870&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BBQ5gS9sFZcF5l0egSZFflDJrcj8NUr1n8IZTC3TkfA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355870">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355871" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490005741"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://documents.nationaldb.org/dbp/apr2005.htm#changes">http://documents.nationaldb.org/dbp/apr2005.htm#changes</a></p> <p>Another example of how vaccines have prevented childhood injury by disease.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355871&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bMjfA7Sx0UWFvZRtjaAdKUJgJpSqCrxf2qENHgNUSqA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355871">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355872" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490006023"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://www.vashonloop.com/article/rubella-epidemic-1964-65">http://www.vashonloop.com/article/rubella-epidemic-1964-65</a></p> <p>And a personal story.....</p> <p><a href="https://www.verywell.com/growing-up-deaf-rubella-1046568">https://www.verywell.com/growing-up-deaf-rubella-1046568</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355872&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZBTIoDzKTChjqTtSX1YSeo0-3uMBlD0VbQoWowJwj8M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355872">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355873" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490006154"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Explain why the mortality rate for Smallpox never dropped - it still killed between 35% - 95% of people who were infected, right up until eradication.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355873&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QUp1eQ2YuGRcVFuqZyu2xwdHIfLeihhLtS2HdORKIEQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355873">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355874" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490006662"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Your rubella scare stories are false.</p></blockquote> <p>Given your unfamiliarity with everything epidemiology, it's no surprise you also don't seem to know where a rapid response falls in the hierarchy of evidence.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355874&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VetPGUgjpa2-Fb5Q-7GupUaArnrdbxsUK0vZsC3whPQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355874">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355875" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490007069"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Vinu is more fun about it — he actually believes the stuff he spouts, and is less of a gutless gobsh1te when shown to be wrong.</p></blockquote> <p>It <i>has</i> occurred to me that teh NWOR would've fit right in at Prenda.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355875&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SsNrchXXFTOsHaJwfTp7FE_Pup8dCzDHESGdym5Q6m8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355875">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355876" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490007286"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "No one in the industrialized world was afraid of those diseases in the 1950s and 1960s,...."</p> <p>Wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong. What is the date of this paper:<br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1286334/pdf/amjphealth00116-0001a.pdf">A STATISTICAL STUDY OF MEASLES (1914)</a></p> <p>Why do you hate healthy children, and wish for them to experience very nasty diseases:<br /><a href="http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-sspe-20150624-story.html">http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-measles-sspe-20150624-story…</a></p> <p> By the way have you figured the percentage of American children under age one year that have had an MMR vaccine?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355876&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2-B4ZYm5G3_kRpPObTWv8T9WAtUjGPWYXlXQUggyCaE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355876">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355877" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490007501"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The criteria for polio diagnosis was changed dramatically shortly after the vaccine was licensed, resulting in an illusory 90% reduction in polio rates.</p></blockquote> <p>Citation needed.<br /> Oh heck with it. You're talking utter hogwash. The claim that polio was relabeled has been refuted on this blog before.</p> <blockquote><p>Iron lungs are still around–we call them ventilators.</p></blockquote> <p>Polio sufferers who used iron lungs had to live inside them. Also, they could never not be ventilated. Hardly anyone needs to be permanently ventilated today.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355877&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W9KTEttpfqptoOakOQaB89I1VettjnvNEeyQfesBizg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355877">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355878" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490007533"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "Your rubella scare stories are false...."</p> <p>You cited an comment stream! Bah, ha ha ha! Again with your theme song:<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'<br /> Though the threads are swollen<br /> Keep them comments trollin',<br /> Rawhide!</p> <p>Cherry pick!<br /> (Head em' up!)<br /> Move goalposts!<br /> (Move 'em on!)<br /> More insults!<br /> (Head em' up!)<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Cut 'em out<br /> (Paste 'em in!)<br /> Paste'em in<br /> (Cut em' out!)<br /> Cut 'em out<br /> Paste 'em in,<br /> Rawhide!<br /> Keep trollin', trollin', trollin'<br /> Though they're disaprovin'<br /> Keep them comments trollin'',<br /> Rawhide<br /> Don't try to understand 'em<br /> Just rope, laugh, and ignore 'em</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355878&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RLDQPuLJECPhGjH8cjpBFpYebN357lyrpzS_d9B3JrI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355878">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355879" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490007815"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Clifford Miller?? She linked to an opinion piece by CLIFFORD MILLER?? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh man, I haven't laughed so hard in AGES. That's almost as bad as linking to Wakefraud or Mikey.</p> <p>I also note she had no reply to my (very long, sorry) comment about my mom and grandfather. NWO is basking in her priviledge, and Dunning Kruger effect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355879&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iI3h9KptBicvOKOrkVEaAn6ztvzaSB86J5Horf51_As"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355879">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355880" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490011023"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><blockquote>Iron lungs are still around–we call them ventilators.</blockquote> <p>Polio sufferers who used iron lungs had to live inside them.</p></blockquote> <p>Teh NWOR's <a href="http://wonkville.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/dr-gonzo-puking-fear-and-loathing-in-las-vegas-hunter-s-thompson-and-ralph-steadman1.jpg">routine</a> really isn't very well deployed, is it? Iron lungs, of course, have not been "renamed" (like polio! and smallpox!) – they've always been ventilators.</p> <p>The fact that that teh NWOR never gives any sign of <b>thought</b> regarding type of ventilation is par for the course. I have my own set of biases (a friend whom everybooy thought had beaten GVHD, my mom after development of catastrophic Herceptin resistance), but I think I'd much prefer NPV if the choice were available, which is a subject I've only had <a href="http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/20/1/187">a cursory glance at</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355880&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TpDn7ksaP0_BOYSkl5cFkh7eG86f-CarWNwT3iiSDQo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355880">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355881" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490014589"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Resident troll:</p> <blockquote><p>The criteria for polio diagnosis was changed dramatically shortly after the vaccine was licensed, resulting in an illusory 90% reduction in polio rates. Iron lungs are still around–we call them ventilators.</p></blockquote> <p>Strangely, the illusion must also affect pediatric ICUs, where we see no children spending months on ventilators for respiratory paralysis, and it also extends to paralytic limb paralysis.<br /> Tell us NWO, what has replaced all the store rooms full of leg calipers, and where have all the kids with crippled, shrivelled limbs gone to? Maybe you don't see any because they are all stuck at home in their basements, playing minecraft from their wheelchairs?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355881&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l1iTA2Xyl82dlydLoQYnd4tTuDh5gz6WQqpiJ_G-Lqk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dingo199 (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355881">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355882" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490015360"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Prior to the vaccine, there were two types of polio, paralytic and non-paralytic. Most children recovered fully from both types. The year following the introduction of the polio vaccine, the CDC changed the diagnostic criteria for polio--changes that automatically eliminated two thirds of the cases of paralytic polio, and eliminating all diagnoses of non-paralytic polio.</p> <p>The symptoms that would have previously been labeled non-paralytic polio were instead diagnosed as viral or aseptic meningitis. Symptoms that had previously been labeled paralytic polio were labeled Guillain-Barre Syndrome, or one of several other diseases with symptoms that are clinically similar to those of polio. A similar slight of hand was used in India more recently. Even as polio was allegedly eliminated by the vaccine, there has been a corresponding dramatic increase in the number of cases of Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis--the symptoms of which are clinically identical to polio.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355882&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kjGKTt_quelhQWSvPDHBUMs-X65uE1mYpHKwtNQEZ0Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355882">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355881#comment-1355881" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dingo199 (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355883" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490015748"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Notice the troll continuing to move goalposts....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355883&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="94N6Eq1-NTgi3-M18eSV93Oy1c6zzOH_FYBQkaKeefk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355883">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355884" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490016483"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Even as polio was allegedly eliminated by the vaccine, there has been a corresponding dramatic increase in the number of cases of Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis–the symptoms of which are clinically identical to polio.</p></blockquote> <p>Congratulations. You managed to be both fractally wrong and not even wrong in a single sentence. That claim has been refuted on this blog already.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355884&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-dUxVvbAR7eVqKe4EfFVlWS1iTb_O70U5Zbk-x7bcug"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355884">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355885" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490016616"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "Symptoms that had previously been labeled paralytic polio were labeled Guillain-Barre Syndrome, or one of several other diseases with symptoms that are clinically similar to those of polio."</p> <p>Again, that is the most idiotic anti-vaccine trope ever, because in the 1950s they could tell the difference between the three different serotypes of polio. Hence the creation of this wall of polio: <a href="http://www.virology.ws/2015/07/02/the-wall-of-polio-version-3-0/">http://www.virology.ws/2015/07/02/the-wall-of-polio-version-3-0/</a></p> <p>And now with more modern methods of studying viruses it is an even more idiotic argument. And truly a sign that the troll really really hates kids.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355885&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NRlG4LHXmWD_AInw-byl8b0upPuoTA-_A0dxHzm4DEc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355885">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355886" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490016875"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yet another example of a troll not even knowing the basics of virology either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355886&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aTGPcRE7W7g-OJ5yCctRrX4ERRsXfh_Ytfkjde34EOY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355886">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355887" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490018452"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWOR here is a short reading assignment for you to read (and understand): Environmental Engineering and Sanitation (latest edition) by Joseph A. Salvato, P.E.. Once you have read and understood Salvato please then come back with your diatribe about nutrition, sanitation and living conditions are the cure all for everything.</p> <p>Oh by the way, my Salvato edition is only 1200 pages and the newer editions are longer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355887&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="widJxTTyKSOBW7GmSSchbAcabnCbwqX2nEILHGlBo-s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Bly (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355887">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355888" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490018552"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Her real name is W.S. Pratt.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355888&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_FTbz2pGhW0G-zGyLDUxmK8zdOI2D2WIMcz5S-NB7s8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike Stevens (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355888">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355889" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490021178"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Didn't NWOR just present herself as the paragon of reason by excoriating pro and anti-vaxx positions? And then go on to puke up the hoariest of hoary anti-vaxx tropes?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355889&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C_Uky-SrMTghPZCKDJnMp3WiR1u3AMcTKksddmJQXNE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355889">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355890" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490021457"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Even as polio was allegedly eliminated by the vaccine, there has been a corresponding dramatic increase in the number of cases of Non-Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis–the symptoms of which are clinically identical to polio.</p></blockquote> <p>It's more useful to understand something rather than nothing. Any sentient being who is interested in this subject should be able to apprehend that many viruses (including non-polio enteroviruses, coxsackieviruses and echoviruses) cause flaccid paralysis. Indeed, the landscape has changed now that polio has been hamstrung--but most people should be capable of understanding what that means.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355890&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bkv2Xy0DclImQa7DPIwt22XMqdwspXmBbnlYX8LrgSo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">brian (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355890">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355891" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490026632"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> My first qualification was in theoretical physics, the second one was in psychology, but I’ve never let that hold me back from writing and getting published about (say) mercury neurotoxicity (or anything else that comes along). So I have t deprecate the idea that credentials are an indicator of expertise. </p></blockquote> <p>I would mildly suggest that the degree to which one should have credentials in the field may vary with the degree to which one is declaring the field to be full of "illusions" which one is about to "dissolve" with the power of one's mighty intellect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355891&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0PZp5rsYgR33jWfBkx6-4b0z2-iPGoABBR8zxzKNTSc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Antaeus Feldspar (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355891">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355892" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490026749"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Ireland and FOIA anyone?</p></blockquote> <p>The most pathetic part of the latter item is that the ridicule wasn't directed so much at teh NWOR as at <i>Thompson</i>, as foolishly channeled by the former's exquisitely developed gut–connection.</p> <p>Despite knowing full well that the law says nothing whatever about document retention and – <b><i>rather than arguring that one must be implicit</i></b>* – she simply decided to go with squirting bad faith all over the place and frosting it with smilies.</p> <p>* Unlikely to go well, but at least honest.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355892&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sdPXkqp24KNdtymRHYgR9uvvM7dYaotmdyZcX3QiWcs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355892">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355893" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490027971"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ "gut–<b>brain</b>" connection, that is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355893&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HzKHUCBoBARqdZDB-8mn_OXq3yfPOuKxxif9RqHaEBQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355893">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355894" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490033627"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>No one in the industrialized world was afraid of those diseases in the 1950s and 1960s,</i></p> <p>You are fuller of tripe than the belly of a cow. I was around during the 1950s and 1960s. Were you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355894&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eOFWBnkMGgMVa-VybE3JeVWob3mrzKhTAZ1A57SLjy0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355894">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355895" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490035729"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>You are fuller of tripe than the belly of a cow. </i></p> <p>"Fuller of sh1t than a two-stone seagull", my friend Claire was wont to say (she was an Essex girl).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355895&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gkHim5CDR5XuUr5LnDGeBzMrlzip3QFQElZVFNWQVec"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355895">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355896" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490038747"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ugh. NWO you are making me angry. My uncle died from polio in 1944; by all family accounts he died a painful and horrible death. My mother also got it and suffered from problems with her left leg for the rest of her life (thankfully she did not need leg braces). When the polio vaccine came out, parents lined up around the building to get it for their kids. It's why parents in developing nations, when they hear about a vaccination clinic, walk miles with their kids to get them vaccinated. They still have to cope with these illnesses and they understand how important they are.</p> <p>Look up the differences in how negative pressure ventilation (Iron lung) and positive airway pressure (PAP) ventilation work to understand what an incredibly STUPID thing you said earlier about ventilators. </p> <p>NPV may still have its uses, but it has more drawbacks which is why we don't see it in widespread use.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355896&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6r3Q9WIFH-OaYzG2f4lE9wbNWSS3prOKc20F-ieQ0y8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355896">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355897" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490070178"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Going back to the original topic, and completely ignoring the Troll: So, Heckenlively is back, like a bad case of shingles.<br /> I had wondered where he was hiding out. The antivax "story" has to get darker, because as the ones telling the tale become older and see no progress in their crusade the enemy must become more powerful, more overarching and harder to combat. Kent will eventually run out of steam, but how much damage can he do in the mean time ? I hope it's not much.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355897&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lg3p2Vv2Wme9-wmyfXE7aisf1dhofsgbOLC_zNCqWD0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DLC (not verified)</span> on 21 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355897">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355898" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490733541"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^Shingles!<br /> Perhaps NWO would look more positively on vaccines if she had ever had shingles.<br /> *shudder<br /> It's a horrifying experience that I hesitate to wish on anyone....almost.<br /> And yet not as horrifying as so many preventable diseases.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355898&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dEnZdtlwg81dM1beJDjak14V3fplwhFCqYi23_sqmtw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jennifer Gray (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355898">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355899" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490736430"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Shingles is horrible; therefore, vaccines. That's some sound vaccine logic! The incidence of shingles has increased since the chicken pox vaccine. But on the plus side, it's really opened up the market for the shingles vaccine! Too bad it only seems to be about 51% effective. But it's a vaccine! What could possibly go wrong? :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355899&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LXAi8zk_kli8QIde-H-xj735enr2_N7u0J5N3WCR4RY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355899">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355898#comment-1355898" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jennifer Gray (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355900" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490739121"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> The incidence of shingles has increased since the chicken pox vaccine. </p></blockquote> <p>Yep. Some day, all us old farts will die off, and all the babies who never had chicken pox will grow up and not get shingles or the shingles shot. That will probably piss you right off, and that suits me just fine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355900&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="60BuAVY-Yqo6Cx3xTPavav07BEXdVO31T17oHZsyrOc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355900">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355901" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490740622"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sure! We can play Let's Pretend. Let's pretend the chickenpox vaccine always prevents chickenpox infection. Let's pretend it provides lifetime protection, too! And while we're at it, let's pretend it's going to prevent shingles down the road! It's fun playing Let's Pretend in Vax Fantasy Land. :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355901&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iXt0s_PcylkRTvbF3yly6uhrS36sggrKLXHv16rbJv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355901">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355900#comment-1355900" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355902" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490743626"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NWO Troll: "That’s some sound vaccine logic! The incidence of shingles has increased since the chicken pox vaccine."</p> <p>Coincident to the Baby Boomers get old enough to get shingles. Funny how that happened.</p> <p>"We can play Let’s Pretend."</p> <p>Sure, can we pretend that you don't fall into using the Nirvana Fallacy?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355902&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="G-HPdOs7ylqBaYpPnh9lQI2TjAh8Pw3UX76cVH_C9Jo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355902">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355904" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490747966"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LOL. Yes, of course--coincidence! Couldn't possibly be because periodic natural exposure to chicken pox helps build adult resistance to shingles. And because of the vaccine, adults are getting a lot less of it. Let's just pretend the vaccine is a miracle! </p> <p>I wonder how all those vaccinated kids will fare when their resistance to chickenpox, to the extent they got any, wears off? But why quibble about unknowns? More vaccines for everyone! :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355904&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XdFZsjGNOxjwPX7M5TJmP6chMBqx3-WYLSLXLU7hgGc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355904">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355902#comment-1355902" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355903" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490747072"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We can play Let’s Pretend.</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, let's! Let's pretend that the introduction of HPV Vaccine has reduced the incidence of cervical and other cancers!<br /> Oh, wait. We don't have to pretend. It has.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355903&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RKTd8bC37-ZAwmOm6tKJ7rw-mHHl5WVuFfoNZxegV7w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355903">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355905" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490748309"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're hilarious! I mean, you would be, if you weren't trying to convince people to take a triple whammy of one of the most dangerous and unproven vaccines out there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355905&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-3BMv4EE1uNm7h5NHv81sWQm9Y-I_lJNKG7h1T2U5l4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355905">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355903#comment-1355903" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355906" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490749499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Yes, let’s! Let’s pretend that the introduction of HPV Vaccine has reduced the incidence of cervical and other cancers!<br /> Oh, wait. We don’t have to pretend. It has.</p></blockquote> <p>Citation needed. Giving the long ætiology of cervical cancer and the small numbers of people who actually took this horrendous aluminum-laden abomination, I doubt there is any study with sufficient statistical power to confidently make this claim.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355906&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ATIjjmo6hyEosAPmunhy0UTUY1Er_VKn0WXgJbCZyhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">triskelethecat (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355906">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355907" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490751443"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter:</p> <blockquote><p>...one of the most dangerous and unproven vaccines out there.</p></blockquote> <p>Not dangerous, and not unproven.<br /> @triskelethecat, or should I say Travis:</p> <blockquote><p>Citation needed.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0909537#t=article">http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0909537#t=article</a><br /><a href="https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/208/3/385/2192839/Reduction-in-Human-Papillomavirus-HPV-Prevalence">https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/208/3/385/2192839/Reduction-in-Hum…</a><br /> "Conclusions. Within 4 years of vaccine introduction, the vaccine-type HPV prevalence decreased among females aged 14–19 years despite low vaccine uptake. The estimated vaccine effectiveness was high."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355907&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-W47s0QhrpHP2bVY8mugHAFhUG1BUcg3iahZIQqqnAE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355907">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355908" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490753585"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Give me a break. "Estimated" vaccine effectiveness? Reductions in HPV incidence in a single age group despite low vaccine uptake? That doesn't even come close to proving that Gardasil has prevented a single case of cancer--or even a single case of HPV, for that matter. Gardasil only purports to protect against four of more than a hundred strains of HPV. It's a very common infection that the vast majority of people fully clear without any intervention whatsoever.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355908&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rjUIKYgulPzFGD71HK_tOhr-NYWWSeyBWgcrvIJVqmA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355908">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355907#comment-1355907" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355909" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490754265"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It would also be very interesting to know whether infertility increases along with vaccine "uptake." And whether other forms of cancer increase with "uptake" as well--considering the carcinogenic potential of the HPV vaccine is completely unknown. And it would be interesting to know how many lives were destroyed by the vaccine compared to the number destroyed by those four strains of HPV.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355909&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u7MLlK4SeDYUMlX2Z5sBg5iuxe0micuxo5Ha3vAynYA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355909">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355907#comment-1355907" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355910" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490754943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>That doesn’t even come close to proving that Gardasil has prevented a single case of cancer–or even a single case of HPV, for that matter.</p></blockquote> <p>Yes it does. Your failure of reading comprehension does not refute that.</p> <blockquote><p>Gardasil only purports to protect against four of more than a hundred strains of HPV.</p></blockquote> <p>Four strains which have been implicated in most cases of cervical cancer.</p> <blockquote><p>It would also be very interesting to know whether infertility increases along with vaccine “uptake.”</p></blockquote> <p>Why don't you google it lazybones?</p> <blockquote><p> And it would be interesting to know how many lives were destroyed by the vaccine compared to the number destroyed by those four strains of HPV.</p></blockquote> <p>List some of these lives "destroyed by the vaccine". And please do not mention Madelyne and Olivia Meylor. Their case has been investigated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355910&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fCQNy_u12lFzTeL0MeNp1U-LexZLnSFohpgxaRERlyk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 28 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355910">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355925" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490785838"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why don't you stop trying to deceive people into thinking that lame study you cited constitutes evidence that Gardasil prevents cancer. Oh, and you might want to ask the manufacturer why they are working on a "new and improved" version that protects against several more HPV strains, if the four covered by the current version are all that matter. Again, the vast majority of people fully clear all HPV infections without intervention or any serious consequences.</p> <p>As for lives destroyed by the HPV vaccine, and possible implications in future fertility problems, there is a lot of information available on the web for anyone who's interested. Do you think countries around the world are backing off their recommendations for the vaccine for no reason? Your agenda is so transparent.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355925&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2_G5oixLHFYlTg4CQuzlKMQaMNdWLb5SijN70M3plOw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355925">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355910#comment-1355910" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355911" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490761157"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yet another example of immunology fail.....</p> <p>If you don't get chicken pox, you don't get Shingles.</p> <p>Why is the so hard to get?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355911&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1QR7n1Bc4Q7b0dWcu5KHLU87tnyyitQN7i0kJAbaur8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355911">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355926" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490786426"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You can't seriously believe that getting a chickenpox vaccine means no chickenpox infection for a lifetime. Vaccine failure rates of up to 44% have been observed. How good is the protection? Does it protect against infection, or only the symptoms of infection? How long does it last? Does avoiding this generally mild childhood infection have adverse health consequences down the road? These are unknowns. <a href="https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/197/7/944/798673/Primary-Vaccine-Failure-after-1-Dose-of-Varicella">https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/197/7/944/798673/Primary-Vaccine-F…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355926&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="K2aN_yIAxQMwwvD_QOxqfoDy6Gw8R5iZHeifPrBadZg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355926">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355911#comment-1355911" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355912" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490761258"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, we know that about 6000 women die every year from HPV-derived Cervical Cancer, not to mention the others who die from the other Cancers caused by HPV.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355912&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0zVY9SWcVI4TjtGub_9PPTOvQt9Ms_ETrpZJymWN_uY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355912">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355927" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490786777"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What we don't know is whether the vaccine will improve the cancer rate, or make it worse. It could actually increase the risk of cancer if there has already been an HPV infection--and such infections can occur in childhood, and even in the womb, without any awareness of it. Is anyone being tested before getting vaccinated? Not that I've heard of. Further, the vaccine itself has never been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential.</p> <p>The idea that the HPV vaccine will prevent any cancers at all is purely theoretical.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355927&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LZdpX4ptx8T3Zqx-f5VrkKMmQjedY-2X8s1qbJHkLEE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355927">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355912#comment-1355912" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355913" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490762705"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Orac: Please remove the Travis socks with my other 'nym. I'll have to change my email.</p> <p>Commenters: triskelethecat above is NOT me, but it is a 'nym I use for discus.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355913&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2tamGqeNeSd4tf1wNhyt6ndORK7RPaR3vpGIzstJb_s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355913">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1355921" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490768807"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355921&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zjLYctLH9uP89kjz8G1NwhN1Fkekno-lqULRnDj2IF0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355921">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355913#comment-1355913" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355914" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490762941"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>the shit Travis J. Schwochert returns as something from the cat box</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355914&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4orhf8lRIpqg9xcnn2aAQVcTDN8ECEMHMVCPpxuXH0U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355914">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355915" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490762944"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It'll take Travis the joke a bit to work this email out.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355915&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JJlfLhqMrSovKWcTEYLIdgEIkuA0wi0H8huSdKmQPnc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355915">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355916" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490763015"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Dawn - I suspected as much.....he really does have too much time on his hands</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355916&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_dj1xqzx2zfvXBKRjjz3P5H4xmSgp3yiC3QYK5YHXZQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355916">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355917" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490763087"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWOR: strange that frequent exposure to chicken pox didn't keep my grandfather, who was a doctor and did house calls, from getting shingles. He was in AGONY for weeks. The minute the shingles vaccine became available, he got it. </p> <p>I wonder why sensible people who have experienced VPDs and their sequelae are so eager to get vaccines and to have their children and grandchildren vaccinated?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355917&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tztqXax5MizfUR28cLW8ndXafQMVIHoeZArKaYzwv4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355917">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355928" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490787119"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Your anecdotal story about your grandfather, if true, means nothing when it comes to assessing whether the alleged benefits of either vaccine outweigh the risks. But I'm sure you know that already. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355928&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JqMAJ1aqIGSBPRPDTU56q0Z_-ctvuGXrHs_hR33CLT8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355928">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355917#comment-1355917" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355918" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490763108"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MI Dawn, just as you were typing that, I was summoning the hammer with a rude comment regarding Travis J. Schwochert.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355918&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w0hZWDINs1UCMWk8xbEYN9NYPTb5UdRInXwXHOn4YdU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355918">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355919" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490763840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&lt;sarcasm&gt;Isn't it cute&lt;/sarcasm&gt; when idiots get hold of terms like "hand-waving" (or <i>ad hominem</i>) of which they have no idea of the meaning, and insist on using them repeatedly?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355919&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3_z4ElhuKiCskL-N03l1tAUReggIYp4E1A9ZWLQ6QCQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355919">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355920" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490764399"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jesus. Now he's using my real 'nym. I don't mention comma splices. </p> <p>Travis: go back to your cellar. I won't type the rest of my thought, but it's not complimentary.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355920&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f3iwRyZ0nt8rTMcY_rYYSGBUSqq5CRo3Dx6AUk7pwuA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355920">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355922" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490769561"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter, let's stipulate for the sake of argument that exposure to poxy children prevents shingles in adults. What conceivable moral argument is there for allowing children to go unvaccinated so that they will get chickenpox *solely for the benefit of adults around them*, knowing, as you acknowledge, that the children in turn will be at risk of shingles? What moral justification is there for letting children suffer so adults have to go to the trouble of getting a vaccine?</p> <p>In fact, your moral position is even worse if you assert that the shingles vaccine doesn't work, because then you're saying that it is right to condemn children to a future of suffering to protect adults to some degree from suffering. </p> <p>On the contrary, it is the duty of adults -- of all people -- not to make others suffer for their comfort.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355922&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HjHmWz1IEVLQkqP-r8N1Fw3YVxUWVOIPtcTfDEKDwfA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355922">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355929" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490787505"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, please. The overwhelming majority of children recover quickly, easily and fully from chickenpox. When I was a kid, the biggest point of discussion among us was how great it was to get a week off school and eat ice cream and watch TV all day. And many children experience growth spurts after such an infection--a testament to its reward, which is a hardier immune system.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355929&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HpEI_babR9BfgflCGe8E_m5vHHxfStXiJNiWQHXT6Gs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355929">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355922#comment-1355922" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355930" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490787918"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, you are assuming the vaccine will prevent chickenpox infection. Yet vaccine failure rates as high as 44% have been observed. Is there protection against infection, or only the observable symptoms of infection? If there is genuine protection, how long does it last? It's naive to assume that just because there is a vaccine for something, its potential benefits outweigh its risks and possible adverse consequences.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355930&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-I0txcB9BawvYLfVU_hkYbQyj8UF0xMcsFTt9-OHtUE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355930">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1355922#comment-1355922" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355923" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490769881"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Grrr typo: What moral justification is there for letting children suffer so adults *won't* have to go to the trouble of getting a vaccine?</p> <p>Also, before anyone jumps on me: I'm not saying that it is true that exposure to poxy children prevents shingles, only that even if it is true, it's no excuse for not preventing chickenpox.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355923&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tdpZ8GyIVKJ39cSAKDxtNsNUDzqzeM_WchPR1jv34go"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355923">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355924" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490770102"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Let's not play the antivax game of focusing only on deaths from infectious disease.</p> <p>With HPV, there are approximately 14 million new infections annually. Since about 9 of 10 of those infections will resolve on their own within 2 years, that leaves 1.4 million people newly placed at risk of cancer every year. Many of them will be on long-term surveillance. A sizable number will develop pre-cancers and wind up undergoing biopsies, LEEP procedures and hysterectomies whether or not invasive cancer develops. These procedures are often painful and can impair fertility.<br /> Good luck telling those patients about how harmless HPV infection is.</p> <p><a href="https://www.cdc.gov/hpv/parents/questions-answers.html">https://www.cdc.gov/hpv/parents/questions-answers.html</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355924&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SiZNTXJNFb2lYpHmO-rM_gLK1sYx4gjcXvXpt-6Jlyg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355924">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355931" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490787921"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I saw a a patient just last week for my Women's Health rotation (FNP program); 23 years old, sexually active, boyfriend has genital warts and they had not been using condoms. She got the full 3 shot series of Gardasil. She had a HPV screen six months ago when she found out about the GW, and wanted a repeat screen (she just dumped him) because they weren't using condoms.</p> <p>We had a nice chat. She said she was glad she got the series. I am too; I have no doubt she'd be infected without it. We had a nice talk about condom use.</p> <p>Seriously, this is not rocket science. Get the vaccine. My nephew gets his this month.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355931&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pk1yiXCMz3Zzmivu78aDXdQxR6-U-Cs9lSbkTeKNWmw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355931">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355932" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490789207"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NWO Reporter:</p> <blockquote><p>Why don’t you stop trying to deceive people into thinking that lame study you cited constitutes evidence that Gardasil prevents cancer.</p></blockquote> <p>That was one of a number of studies I got when I searched on Google Scholar. It's clear your mind is welded shut and you won't accept evidence that refutes your misinformed beliefs.</p> <blockquote><p>Oh, and you might want to ask the manufacturer why they are working on a “new and improved” version that protects against several more HPV strains, if the four covered by the current version are all that matter.</p></blockquote> <p>I didn't say they were the only ones that mattered, just that they were the most dangerous.</p> <blockquote><p>Again, the vast majority of people fully clear all HPV infections without intervention or any serious consequences.</p></blockquote> <p>Most people walk away from car crashes alive. Thousands still die every year from them.</p> <blockquote><p>As for lives destroyed by the HPV vaccine, and possible implications in future fertility problems, there is a lot of information available on the web for anyone who’s interested.</p></blockquote> <p>Nope. You made the claim, you stump up the evidence. That's how it works here.</p> <blockquote><p>What we don’t know is whether the vaccine will improve the cancer rate, or make it worse...The idea that the HPV vaccine will prevent any cancers at all is purely theoretical.</p></blockquote> <p>The research has been done, the results are in. The vaccine lowers cancer rates. Ignoring the evidence a la Donald Trump won't make it go away.</p> <blockquote><p>The overwhelming majority of children recover quickly, easily and fully from chickenpox.</p></blockquote> <p>See comment about car crashes above. Every year, people die from chickenpox.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355932&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7PUuRGEUbIEoIhkJL2blRmvCtRRsQTW8rCRYnlmH7g4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355932">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355933" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490789711"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Pap screening combined with loop electrosurgical excision procedures (LEEP) is almost 100% effective in preventing cervical cancer mortality ... HPV vaccines have not been demonstrated to be more effective or safer than Pap screening in the prevention of cervical cancer and Pap screening will still be required even in vaccinated women. ... In 2002 scientists concluded that HPV 16 and 18 were the central and independent cause of most cervical cancer. This conclusion was based on molecular technology. If HPV 16 and 18 infections are the central and independent cause of most cervical cancer then the incidence of HPV 16 and 18 should vary with the incidence and mortality of cervical cancer worldwide. This correlation does not exist. It is also observed that the majority of HPV 16/18 infections do not lead to cervical cancer. This indicates that other etiological or 'risk' factors are necessary for persistent HPV infection to progress to cancer. ... Clinical trials have only provided speculative benefits for the efficacy of HPV vaccines against cancer and the long-term risks of the vaccine have not been established..."<br /><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23758803">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23758803</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355933&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VUNZwYzvnxrqBixwhYC27v4Qd9gF9ha-PnQB2Wk0_Ko"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NWO Reporter (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355933">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355934" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490790223"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ha! The grinning idiot quotes Wilyman.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1355934&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CXbPavwUoteIflyAAoCtIhlUuBO7ahxU5nZJWyXBnVA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/1536/feed#comment-1355934">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1355935" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1490790275"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Written by Judith Wilyman. Are you freaking joking?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=13559