post-apocalyptic novel reading club

PANRC: Prelude, Part I

sastyk — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:47:27 +0000

PANRC: Prelude, Part I

Just an update - all the copies of Prelude in circulation are presently going 'round, but if past experience is any guide, the books should have at least one more cycle before the end of the month. So watch here for the next announcement.

In some ways I'm not the optimal audience for Kurt Cobb's _Prelude_ in that I generally hate thrillers. I find the "ordinary person caught up in a chase sequence" thing silly, and while I can read science fiction and suspend belief long enough to believe in wormholes and colonization, or mysteries, and believe that the town of Whateverville experiences a murder rate that makes Detroit look like Mayberry, and that the local private detective also owns a quilt shop, bakes elaborate wedding cakes and picks locks on the side, and happens to be dating a retired police officer/opera singer, I have more trouble with thrillers. I guess I'm a coward, but I somehow find it hard to believe that the tendrils of power are so secret and universal that you can buy off every cop anyone might tell a story to, every reporter, every everyone, ensuring that you have no choice but to solve the mystery yourself while running for you life. When the black copters start chasing me ;-), I'm calling the cops and going home and pulling the covers up over my head. This, however, would make a boring book.

Perhaps that's why I actually liked _Prelude_ - mercifully, Cobb spares us the rooftop helicopter chases as the vision of a unified government in which local, state, federal and civil figures all conspire collectively. Cassie and Victor, the protagonists, have encounters that are almost plausible in the era of Wiki-Leaks - almost.

The biggest reason I liked _Prelude_ though, is that it fills a major gap in the peak oil oeuvre. Here's a light, plausible, fun, short read that you can hand to someone who has never heard of peak oil. Cobb's mastery of the thriller conventions is sufficient that everyone who encounters it will recognize themselves as on familiar ground, and by telling the story as a high-tension mystery to be solved, gradually unfolding the information about peak oil to a reader, Cobb may have done one a greater service to the larger community of activists than almost anyone else. We all know people who will never touch a non-fiction book with the word "oil" in it - but who devour light novels like candy.

Think about how important this is - we all know how meaningful fiction is in these roles. The obvious example is the degree to which Michael Crichton's revolting garbage about climate change framed and shaped the denialist debate for so many. Now imagine Crichton's evil powers turned to good - instead of denying the material and technical limits that we are encountering, imagine someone wrote a popular thriller about how climate change - or in this case, peak oil - was real? Think about how much that matters.

Because Cobb is working towards a particular kind of genre, with a particular kind of audience, it can be hard to review this sort of book. The book is not heavy, it doesn't take long to read, it isn't subtle and if you are longing for the kind of complexities that Kunstler's work brings up, you won't them. The only complex parts of the book are those where Cobb explains the technical limits of energy production. He makes this as light and accessible as possible, and the explanations are extremely well done. Cobb's gift is his gift for clarity, and he manages to make explanations of shale gas and oil reserves readable enough that I think the majority of his target audience won't simply skip over them. Even those fairly familiar with the subjects might learn something new as well - but what's most appealing to me as a writer is to watch Cobb's grace at dispensing technical knowledge to an audience that may not be per se interested in oil - the audience seeking simply to escape into a familiar sort of a book.

Cobb's is a novel of pre-apocalypse, and that's interesting because he leaves open the question of outcomes. When Cassie is brought to a group of peak oil true believers, they debate how the outcomes might play out and what the time frames might be. Victor, who is pretty clearly a younger and slightly hotter Dmitry Orlov (actually, his cover pic looks rather like the author photo of Orlov on _Reinventing Collapse_) summarizes Orlov's position - the collapse will be financial and political, but the cause won't be the same, and the US will in many ways not fare well because of the heavy debt obligations and dependencies built up by fossil infrastructure.

Other peak oil theorists show up in the background of the writing - Cobb seems to have taken the best ideas liberally, and laid them out for his readers, for which I give him credit. As Eliot put it, immature poets borrow, mature poets steal. Cobb is a mature poet who rightly takes the ideas he needs and inserts them into his fiction so as to present a whole picture. I'm just sad that Greer's problem vs. predicament distinction didn't come with a long-bearded Druid character to accompany it - sadly, the peak oil believers are a polite, dull bunch. I suppose this adds to the overall credibility of the issue, but what's funny about the real peak oil movement is that its strangest figures (me included) aren't really nearly as strange as the truth.

I know that most of us reading this were searching for fun parallels to people we know/know of, and there are quite a few, but I'll let you find them yourself. Looking for thinly fictionalized familiar people is a great party game, and I'd spoil it if I mentioned the ones I spotted. It does make a good parlor game.

It isn't a perfect book - some of the transitions are a little heavy handed, and almost all the supporting characters are dull, and hard to tell apart from one another. In many cases, though, these are conventions of the thriller, which bring to life only a few real characters and leave the rest as background and cannon fodder. Most of the things that I don't love about the book are not bugs, but features - that is, this is a particular kind of book written in a particular kind of genre and it uses the conventions of those genres well. For the same reason you can't add Russian-novel complexity to teenage romance, you can't slow down a fast-paced thriller with pesky details like secondary character development, and plenty of thriller writers (even though I dislike the genre, I went and read a few just to make sure that Cobb really did have the genre down) like Grisham or Hoban are much heavier of hand than Cobb.

In some ways, I have to imagine that writing this kind of book is harder than writing a Great American Novel about peak oil - or at least it would be for me (note, I don't claim here that I wouldn't write a crappy example of a Great American Novel, just that that genre seems more accessible). The kind of writing that Cobb has to do to make the peak oil story available to people is *hard* - you have to be concise, light of hand and engaging with difficult technical concepts to an audience that may have the faintest understanding of the issue. Even if I didn't like the book - and I do - I'd be awed at what Cobb has accomplished.

Sharon

sastyk Mon, 01/10/2011 - 04:47

Tags

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

Kurt Cobb

Prelude

I approached this novel with a bit of trepidation. Novels that are written specifically for a didactic or pedagogical purpose usually leave the fiction writing as second-rate. I was a bit pleased that this one at least had an engaging story and was fun to read.

I read the book in about two days. It certainly was light reading and it was also informative--I learned a few new things, such as what the Bakken oil shale really is. As fiction, though, I would still give it a somewhat mixed review. Although the plot was engaging as far as thrillers go--and my wife and I like to listen to Grisham novels in "books on CD" format when we travel, so I'm a little familiar with the genre--I thought the dialogue was wooden. It seemed like when the characters spoke, it was out of obligation to speak rather than a reflection of what was really on their minds. The dialogue did get a little better as the novel progressed.

But it wasn't bad for a first novel. I'm sure I couldn't do so well, so I don't want to be too negative. And would be a good book to give to someone who wonders what peak oil really is all about and who wants to know more. Will it convince the cornucopians? Probably not.

See if you can spot a doomer archetype in this video, part of a series that I'm working on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8HFLrD9JyI

A little hard to follow beause it's out of context, but I think you'll recognize what this guy has to say in exchanges you've probably had with doomers.

I purchased this book as a Christmas present for my novel-a-week-reading, non-PO-aware mother, and sent it to her only slightly used :-) I also don't read thrillers and I'm not able to compare it to the rest of the genre. I did learn something from the technical information, without my eyes glazing over like they often do. For what it is, I think it is a fine book. I love that it has a glossary.

I found that my biggest problem with this book was that I had zero respect for the main character (or any of them, but I should feel something other than contempt for the main character at least!). There also was a great deal of un-stated inner dialog.

At the concert hall, when doing some small talk with her boyfriend's boss's new wife, she basically rolls her eyes, says that she could see where THIS was heading, and walked away. ... where was it heading? Into a conversation? The only conversation that I found interesting in the book? C'mon, PDQ Bach and Phillip Glass discussions were far more entertaining than our heroine flipping her hair in disdain.

I hate also how she was immediately all "dismiss dismiss dismiss" on Victor (but then did such a flipflop), and he was so heavy handed a stereotype. I mean, going on and on about growing tomatoes, the CSA, it was too overt. Your average doomer in the city isn't as blatant especially before the crash, especially in front of people who have already told you that they don't respect it.

Loved the bimbo in Texas ("so happy to see another woman in oil! Let's be bosom friends") -- the whole convo of "do you know anything" "well not really... it's classified... oh ok here's the dirt on my company that NO ONE ELSE KNOWS." Funniest part of the book.

Also, all of her going on and on about how she should be really happy with what she has with her guy, but then sad because they don't have a relationship -- but then cutting him out of her life! His whole purpose was to get her to the concert hall, and break up with her (after yelling at her for screwing up their chance of future happiness by putting herself in jeopardy).

Basically, all of the characters were one dimensional. I appreciate the message the book was giving and how it handled that for the most part, but you can use actual characterization and writing to do so.

If you are interested in a really good fantasy novel (well, series of short stories) about depletion of a resource that an entire society depends on, try Larry Niven's "The Magic Goes Away". It's 1970's vintage but wears extremely well today and is interesting even without realizing that their magic functions much like our oil.

Once you do notice that, it gets even better. The complexity of people's reactions to magic depletion, the crazy lengths they go to to try to perpetuate that which is not perpetuatable, the official government denials, the criminal waste of magic by those with power, the sinking of Atlantis and the lack of realization by the protagonists that a world worth living in can be built without magic are very well done. It's more a novel of ideas than one of characterization or plot, but well worth a read.

Tegan, I agree with you - I just think that's pretty typical of the genre. I do have to say that Cassie's taste for Philip Glass seemed totally in character with her basic emptiness - wow, contentless music, contentless character ;-).

Sharon

Thanks to all for reading "Prelude" and for taking the time to comment on its strengths and weaknesses.

Liz, I think, hits upon a very important point applicable to "Prelude" as much as it is to "The Magic Goes Away." At its root "Prelude" is a novel of ideas. As such the characters become exemplars of those ideas more than the kind of subtle and complete characters one expects in a literary novel. If you as a reader find yourself disliking a character in such a novel, ask yourself if you disagree with the views the character espouses. That will likely be at least part of the reason, if not the primary reason, for your dislike.

Think of a novel such as "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera. We learn a lot about the views and attitudes of Tomas, the main character, from interior dialogues. (Do not confuse the novel with the movie version which had as much similarity to it as a ham sandwich does to an elephant.) But we learn very little about Tomas' background and history. He represents certain ideas and philosophical positions. (Someday I hope to be as profound as Kundera!)

"Prelude" is also a book about relationships: between friends, co-workers and lovers. However, the main relationship in the book may not be apparent if one thinks in terms of characters. But if one thinks in terms of ideas, it will stand out. It is the relationship between Cassie and oil. As the book proceeds, that relationship changes and changes drastically. And as Cassie's relationship to oil changes, so does her relationship with everyone around her. This should sound familiar to those who are peak oil aware. I know of marriages that have been put under terrible strain when one spouse embraces the peak oil thesis and the other does not. And, of course, many people have had the experience of discussing peak oil with co-workers only to be dismissed.

Now, as for Sharon's taste in music, I'll take exception. I do agree and we see in the novel that people either really like Philip Glass's music or they just hate it. I don't think of Glass as being contentless. Perhaps some of his imitators, but not Glass. There is some profound philosophical and aesthetic content in that music whether you like or hate it.

Finally, there used to be a distinction between a book of entertainment and a novel. A novel was considered to a serious work, what we call literary fiction today. An entertainment was really meant as a diversion, not something meant to challenge the mind, but rather an escape.

"Prelude" is a piece of fiction with two minds. As work of ideas it is quite serious-minded in its attempt to get the uninitiated thinking about oil and energy. In that respect it resembles a novel. As an entertainment it distracts the reader with a travelogue of sorts covering the tar sands, offshore oil and Washington, D.C. It employs the conventions of the thriller. No thriller reader expects thoroughly fleshed out characters or an entirely plausible plot though I have tried to construct one that is not so outlandish as to be dismissed as mere fantasy.

As Sharon notes, I am trying to reach a fiction-devouring public that would never touch a book of nonfiction about oil. And, that audience is both enormous and vital to the success of the peak oil movement.

Will "Prelude" succeed at reaching that audience? It might if activists feel that the book is a good tool for introducing people to the peak oil issue. It might if mainstream fiction readers simply enjoy it as a thriller and thereby accept the limitations of the genre.

My thesis when starting out on my journey to write what would become "Prelude" was that ideas only become widely dispersed in the public mind when they are infused in the arts. This is my attempt to do just that. There need to be many others in all manner of arts--painting, plays, dance, song, poetry, decorative arts and so on--if we are to succeed in making the public aware of the difficult road ahead.

PANRC: The Witch of Hebron Part II

sastyk — Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:57:29 +0000

PANRC: The Witch of Hebron Part II

Just a reminder to everyone that we'll be starting Kurt Cobb's _Prelude_ on Monday. I have several people who have copies available for circulation, so if you'd like to read along with the group, please drop me an email at jewishfarmer@gmail.com and you'll get a copy in the mail, with only the requirement that you pass it on if more people want it! Kurt is going to be able to participate in our discussion as well! But first, I promised a discussion of sex and gender in The Witch of Hebron.

I said I'd write another post about _The Witch of Hebron_, this time explicitly addressing the sex and gender issues that Kunstler raises, but I've been putting it off, wondering if I was beating a dead horse - while the book has some real virtues, this isn't one of them, and I was quite critical of the book on other grounds. What more is there to say?

I can think of two things, the first a partial defense of Kunstler (believe it or no!). Kunstler has taken a lot of heat in this from women for his portrayal of prostitution as normative and integrated into society - a number of reviews I've read suggested that his representation of the sex trade in and of itself was prurient and despicable. I don't think that's true, and here is a place I strongly *agree* with Kunstler about the future - there's going to be a lot of trading sex for food and protection if, as seems likely, the world gets a lot poorer.

Why do I think this? Because human history suggests that it is true - we know for a fact that the main victims of climate change world wide are and will be women and children, and that many of them will be forced into prostitution. We know that in any time of trauma, the exchange of sex for safety is a normative thing - for example, it was estimated that more than tens of thousands of women after World War II exchanged sex for food and other needed items in Europe. Disasters breed the sex trade - tragically, but also inevitably.

I've seen it argued that the problem with Kunstler's prostitutes is that they aren't miserable enough - that, fine, prostitution is going to be part of the future, but no need to glorify it. Let's be blunt, the sex trade sucks. No little girl ever says she wants to grow up to be a whore. At the same time, Kunstler is writing a novel, not a work of social criticism. I daresay he'd get a lot less criticism for writing an expose of potential future suffering by prostitutes but that's not his game, and as a piece of writing, it shouldn't have to be. Moreover, I'm not sure that the only honest way to explore this issue is to pity prostitutes - it isn't a good job, it isn't something you want to have to have happen, but somewhere between the hooker with the heart of gold and the pure victim is a place for women who have accepted their painful realities and made the best of them. I'm not sure Jim Kunstler (for reasons discussed below) is the person to find this happy medium, but I don't think that he deserves the outrage he's gotten about the sex trade subplot.

The sex scene between Jasper (12) and Robin (13) has been called pedophilia, and it has been implied that it was inappropriate of Kunstler to write it. I don't find the representation of teen/preteen sex to be either shocking or inappropriate. Given the situation, it doesn't seem unreasonable to imagine that a 13year old who has to have sex with old men would find a healthy boy her age attractive, and express what she expresses in the terms she is most familiar with, or that a 12 year old would be as Jasper is, simultaneously uncomfortable and pleased by the experience. It is actually one of Kunstler's better written scenes - the provision of birthday cake is particularly evocative, and does a really good job, I think, of showing what their relationship should be in better times.

The problem with Kunstler's writing is not that most of his women deal in sex in a world where they have little else. The problem is that Kunstler never actually explains why they have nothing else, and why they are so content to have what I am tempted to describe as "the gift economy of pure pussy" emerge without critique, dissent or doubt that this is the only way to be. We have plenty of evidence that this is not - consider, for example, the collapse of Russia and the way that some women did find themselves forced to trade sex for either escape or protection - and the way older women, Russia's "Iron Grannies" held together their families and maintained personal economies. Women simultaneously traded sex for protection and a better life and also used a host of other techniques to preserve what they had. What makes no sense in Kunstler's novel is that his women only grow up to be whores, they never even conceive of using any other tools.

Norman Mailer famously advised John Updike to give up on his sylized meanderings and to stick to his literary strengths, ie "keep his foot in the whorehouse door." Kunstler clearly0 doesn't need that advice. The biggest weakness of the book is the way Kunstler's reliance on sex as the only way women express themselves seems like a retreat, a way of covering up the fact that there's no evidence he can write a credible woman character with the same complexities he imputes to his men.

indeed, I kept finding myself thinking of Ang Lee's movie "The Ice Storm" - the latter takes place in affluent suburbia, among priveleged, vacuous, mostly emptied out people who rely on sex and their landscape to express their desperate need for a meaning they lack any ability to construct for themselves. The reasons why Kunstler's characters are emptied out are more compelling, but ultimately, Kunstler's book reads like the suburban-search-for-meaning-in-nookie novel. The characters go to whores, not to key parties, but the differences aren't so very different - Kunstler's women are the same vacuous suburbanites of 1970s novels by male authors like Mailer and Updike, only having been through trauma. They aren't emptied out by the disaster, they were empty to begin with.

Read as an example of two archaic styles (1970s era masculine novel, 1870s era American coming of age novel), the lack of women worth reading makes a bizarre sort of sense sense, I suppose. The problem there is that while the evocation of the 19th century is manifestly intentional, working to emphasize the changes that have been undergone, there's less reason for why the people of 2020 should look like a bunch of affluent suburbanites of the 1970s at a post-apocalyptic key party. The failure to notice that 40 years have passed and that the middle aged women of Kunstler's book had an entirely different set of experiences than the characters he actually writes is a weakness, not a strength in the book.

There are things I don't and can't do well as a writer, and every writer writes around their weaknesses - this is entirely normal. The problem is that in writing modern fiction, the inability to write women outside of sex scenes is a pretty big gap to have to cover, and that's one of the reasons I think he's more successful in writing non-fiction than fiction.

Kunstler tries - he covers it by trying to cast us back to eras where one could almost get away with not having any real female characters. He covers it by taking us to the door of the whorehouse. He covers it with a host of protests that the women who criticize him just don't understand how deeply he understands us. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work.

What did you think?

Sharon

sastyk Fri, 01/07/2011 - 02:57

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Kunstler

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

The Witch of Hebron

Come to My Place...Oh, and Prelude Too!

sastyk — Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:35:42 +0000

Come to My Place...Oh, and Prelude Too!

Hi Folks - Happy New Year, everyone! Just a few admin things. First, I still have several spaces in my January apprentice weekend, coming up MLK weekend. This is an adults-only weekend in which we'll talk about everything, practice the winter skill set - late season preserving, goat care and milking, winter livestock care, cheesemaking and dairying, herbs, garden planning and seed starting, or whatever the group wants to learn! In addition, we'll have a mini-adapting in place class as well.

The event is at my house, by donation (whatever you consider fair for the experience), and I also still have a space for someone who would like to join us for free in exchange for doing some dishes, helping with the cooking and generally helping keep things running. Again, this is for grownups - I'll announce a weekend in May in which people can bring their own kids. Nursing babies are an exception, of course, if they can't leave their Moms. I have a big old rambling farmhouse, so you are welcome to stay at our place, or there are plenty of nearby bed and breakfasts. My house is near Albany, NY, and trainable and busable as well as driveable, with some advance planning (Eric and the kids will be sent off to visit Grandma, so I won't have a car to do pickups, but last time it all worked out fine).

I did this last January and it was a *blast* - an absolute pleasure with 10 of us eating, talking, working and generally having a wonderful time. I'm grateful to have made a number of lasting friendships, and am looking forward to meeting some of you. If you've ever wondered what my life really looks like, please come find out (I warn you, though, it may not look as good as in your imagination!). Email me for details jewishfarmer@gmail.com.

Also, the next copy of Prelude is available - remember, our next book club will start a week from Monday (and yes, I know I still owe you one more post about _The Witch of Hebron_ - next week, I swear!_). First to email me gets the copy sent to them.

Finally, I wish all of you a happy and healthy 2011!

Sharon

sastyk Fri, 12/31/2010 - 03:35

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classes

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

I have finished my copy, so if anyone out west would like to read it, I can send it on.

PANRC: The Witch of Hebron I

sastyk — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 08:23:48 +0000

PANRC: The Witch of Hebron I

First of all, let me start with what I like about Jim Kunstler's writing in _The Witch of Hebron_. The thing I enjoy most is that he navigates the shoals of post-apocalyptic fantasy extraordinarily well. He neither falls into the masturbatory apocalypticism of something like _The Road_ nor the "good vs. evil fantasy" so common in PA novels, in which our heroes stand for good, light and humanity against cartoon bad guys who respond to the crisis in cartoon ways (lots of these, think _Lucifer's Hammer_ or _Dies the Fire_.)

Kunstler's post-apocalypticism comes in shades of grey - his characters never know exactly what the right thing to do is, they aren't sure whether they are acting well or not, they do the best they can. They also don't immediately self-organize in perfect ways, come magically together under a heroic leader - there isn't one leader, nor one unified response. Instead, there are lots of responses, even within one small community. No one magically intuits everything that is going on (except, of course, for the weird queen bee woman who goes with the magical subplot of the religious community), knows everyone or has complete understanding.

In this, Kunstler's novel may be more realistic, and better imaginative fiction in its conception than anything I can think of that is comparable. As I wrote in my review of _The World Made By Hand_ the genre of post-apocalyptic fiction is one that tends to lure writers into writing badly and unimaginatively - I know that seems a strange claim, since by definition conceiving a future must be an imaginative project, but there's a strange unity in both high and low culture PA fiction - and that unity is that it isn't very good. The thing is that Jim Kunstler can write - he often produces extraordinarily fine prose. There are places in _TWOH_ in which the book is beautifully or imaginatively written, and again, as I wrote about The World Made By Hand, in the limited genre of the post-apocalyptic novel, Kunstler's prose and classic American coming-of-age novel qualities makes it a standout in its genre.

Unfortunately, that's not exactly stunning praise. In the World Made By Hand I took issue in part with Kunstler's gender politics - and there are issues there, which I'll write about in my second post on this subject. In response to Carolyn Baker's review of _The Witch of Hebron_, I wrote a quick piece at ye olde blogge, observing that in Kunstler's novels, the losses of women's social gains seem to be the opposite of what's actually happening now, where men are the overwhelming early victims of the economic crisis.

At a recent reading in Colorado, the moderator, Michael Brownlee, read an excerpt from my criticisms and a recent review by Carolyn Baker, to which, it was reported to me by several attendees, Kunstler reportedly responded to our criticisms with the following:

"Fuck those motherfuckers!" When he was finally at the podium he began with, "I'm going to address the woman thing right up front. I'm appalled that educated, intelligent women of the boomer generation are so incapable of imagining a world where a completely different economic status has evaporated the gains of women. You need to get over it."

At 38, I'm a bit crushed to find that Kunstler, who I've met several times at some length, apparently thinks I'm a baby boomer, when I'm young enough to be his daughter. I'm not sure which of us that reflects more poorly on. Given that I've spent at least as much time thinking and writing about the role of women in the post-peak future than he has I'm willing to make the case that the problem is not our failure to consider the subject. So I do want to talk about the gender issues in the book, particularly since Kunstler remains so defensive about his position on gender, but I'll save that and give it its own post, because there's a larger issue in _The Witch of Hebron_.

To me, the more critical point is that the book is unfortunately rather dull. Despite my distaste for some of _The World Made by Hand_ I rather enjoyed the it and Kunstler's world-building. I found the cowboy-novel journey to clean up Albany entertaining, and the twist of the female prophetess to be genuinely interesting. That's simply not true of _The Witch of Hebron_ - here everything is telegraphed in the first few chapters. The narrative unfolds in a way that is almost entirely predictable. On the rare occasions when what happens next isn't something that one could figure out with minimal thought, the precognitive characters (of which there are many) reveal it, to ensure that even the densest of readers doesn't actually have to read the next segment of the novel to anticipate it. The book isn't uniformly tedious - the beginning and end are rather good, but the journey in the middle seems endless, full of Odyssean stops, complete with Odyssean foreshadowing, without Odyssean interest.

Its central story may be the coming-of-age of Jasper Copeland, but it is really the unwinding of modernity, and despite the fact that Kunstler is often heavy-handed and belabors his point, this part of the novel is of genuine interest at times - just not enough to cover up the drag in the middle. His question is what kind of people we become once the trappings of modernity are gone, and his answer is probably right - good, bad, ugly, depressed, unhappy, newly imaginative, and less modern. I suspect that what Kunstler has done right in this novel is come closer than anyone else writing in this genre to what happens to people when their world unwinds. One of the most interesting scenes occurs in the town school, when the children and their teacher discuss Halloween, history and what looks frightening in a world that knows much more about scary things than we do. Their teacher, Jane Ann Holder asks the children about what Halloween is about:

"To honor dead people who can't be here among us anymore," said Ned Allison.

"Yes. To acknowledge them. Our memory of them, at least."

"I think that's where the idea of ghosts comes from," said Mary Moyer, twelve, a blossoming intellectual. "A mix of memory and imagination."

"Very good," Jane Ann said. "How many of you believe in ghosts?"

Several of the younger children raised their hands, a few tentatively, while checking around the room to see whether they had company in their belief.

"There's no such things as ghosts," said David Martin, fifteen, a cynic through and through.

"Maybe the boundary between memory and imagination isn't as firm as we like to think," Jane Ann said.

What is is and what ain't ain't," David Martin said.

"Isn't, not aint," Jane Ann said.

Despite the dryness of the prose here, there's something interesting going on - an adult is trying to persuade children to see the world in mystical terms, while children old enough to remember the old world resist. It is interesting that it isn't the children, growing up in this new world, that embrace augury and the supernatural, but the adults - the doctor, who claims he comes from a scientific world understanding, but asks another man to reanimate the dead, the minister who has abandoned belief in God but believes in the power of magical prostitutes to cure his impotence (Yes, I know we aren't talking about sex today, but it is hard to avoid, since the book begins with a weeping, odiferous hermit masturbating, floats through adult prostitution, the child sex trade and regular reminders that things like butter and mountains remind everyone immediately of breasts, and winding up with the news that future whores will accept payment in pork products.) This moment in the schoolhouse suggests that the shift to a supernatural worldview happens because the world the adults live in so emptied that they reach, desperately, for a new way of imagining it, and this seems to me a real insight, even if buried in a great deal of dross.

To me the most interesting part of _The Witch of Hebron_ which is, unfortunately, not quite interesting enough, is Kunstler's speculation about what might fill the gap of scientific realism in a world that no longer has the structural support for that worldview. In this world, Washington Irving isn't just a story - Headless Horsemen (or the like) and dark things seem emergingly possible, and human beings can do things that seem like magic - because magic is part and parcel of a world made by hand.

What did you think?

Sharon

Note: For those of you who want to get reading ahead into our next selection (there will be one more post on this month's book), Kurt Cobb's _Prelude_ is on tap for January. February will conclude a three month exploration of Peak Oil Novels with Robert Charles Wilson's _Julian Comstock_ and March's book will move us into an older genre, the nuclear war novel with Pat Frank's _Alas Babylon_. Both of the latter have been out long enough that no one should have trouble getting ahold of them.

sastyk Tue, 12/07/2010 - 03:23

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Kunstler

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

James Kunstler

Witch of Hebron

World Made By Hand

I read World Made by Hand and The Witch of Hebron back to back. Knowing next to nothing about Kunstler, I read these books with great interest and an open mind. I really wanted to like the man and his writing, because heâs writing about peak oil. But Kunstlerâs fiction IS masturbatory. I have no respect for authors like Kunstler and Dan Brown who create protagonists that look a lot like their author photos then go on to tell you about how great they are in their little fantasy world. Clearly he has a problem with women, as he makes whores out of most of them. He also clearly has a problem with Southerners, who he thinks are all bible-thumping Nascar fans. And, as a native southern Virginian, I can tell you that no one talks like his Virginian characters. Putting peopleâs accents or dialect into writing is tricky, and should be avoided by mediocre writers who canât pull it off.

Since my library had it also, I went ahead and read The Long Emergency after returning the other two, and I know its outside the scope of this discussion, but I canât help commenting on it, because this is the book that really made me dislike the man. He clearly isnât writing to educate anyone so much as to show off his impressive vocabulary. In one single paragraph there were four words I had never seen before, and Iâm a pretty smart, well-read person. He is so biased towards his own region that he loses credibility in my book. He, and other rich people who live in small towns in the Northeast will be okay, but the rest of us are doomed! He critiques the climates of the rest of the country but says not one word about the cold in the northeast. I was hoping for an insightful discussion about how other countries might fare, especially Latin America, where I intend to settle, but all I got was a few pages of paranoid rants about Mexicans. Iâm so tired of people who know nothing about Mexico regurgitating some Fox News-type crap about how unstable Mexicoâs government is. If America with its drug war and its government-subsidized corn would leave Mexico alone, Mexico would be just fine. Kunstler describes Mexico as a third-world country, another tell to his ignorance and his sources of âinformationâ. And, after telling us for a couple hundred pages how screwed we are because our country is built for cars, no one knows how to grow food or make things by hand, etc., conditions in which Mexico and many other less-developed countries have advantages over the USA, he asserts that Mexicans will continue to flood into the USA even when things get very bad here. Which is the opposite of what is already happening. And by the way, Mr. Kunstler, if Americans were smart, they would be begging immigrant farmers to settle in their communities.

Putting the misogyny aside takes away a lot of what I'd have to say about this novel, but here goes. I agree with you on the moral ambiguity of the characters being the books strongest suit. Possibly the only strong suit. I realize the 19th century dialogue is an intentional stylistic device, but it made even the potentially interesting conversations silly and awkward. He resorted to magic to tie in subplots that were boring and unnecessary to begin with. As an example, the masturbating hermit who randomly goes off to hunt a random 'catamount' and kills it just in time to save the protagonist. It was like the author imagined having him blamed for the disappearance of the boy but then lost interest in that but still wanted to use the pages he'd written so he tacked on a pointless and boring subplot. Saying he was there because of his magical prescience is a cheat. Don't want to make this post overlong so going to stop there.

Here's the question that the book left me with;
After the economy collapses, the characters are left in a social environment that seems to be structured roughly the same as we might expect from a time 100 or more years ago. Why? And why is the technology in the book all cobbled together from that same time? I hear not one squeak of a windmill, don't see any solar cells, even as refuse, and not a single person is riding a bicycle. (Apologies if I missed something; I had to return my copy to the library).

I'm sorry you quoted him as you did above; before I read that, I would have said that Kunstler's a guy who wrote a book that's not particularly interesting or enjoyable, but after that I'm more inclined to say, "Fuck you, too." It does not take much in the way of imagination to come up with a world in which women have had the gains of the last 40 years taken away. I can find you one in a single plane trip.

And I agree with Brandie that this book IS very masturbatory. Middle aged men have their pick of young women. The paper-thin, ill-described characters doing menial work are all ex-executives and/or owned car dealerships. Just because, to his credit, a very small handful of characters are given moral ambiguity and doubt and mixed motivations does not excuse every other character (including every woman) being either a simplistic caricature or motivated by their mystical, ineffable yet strangely uninteresting magic.

Sharon, I found the book compelling to read. I couldn't put it down. Nevertheless, I too found the plot predictable: boy wrongs one of the leaders of the town; boy disappears; leader goes out to find boy and bring him back to face judgment; while searching for boy, leader's life is put in danger; boy saves leader's life; boy and leader are reconciled.

I also agree that the characters' moral ambivalence is a strong point of the book. But I take issue with all the sex and violence. Spome of the sex, particularly that surrounding Loren Holder's impotence, is central to the story Kunstler is weaving and the characters he's creating, but some of it, to my mind, is gratuitous. I mean, come on, do we really have to stand there "watching" two separate characters masturbating on two separate occasions? And the scene with Jasper and the young prostitute in Glens Falls is a bit much, too. Regarding violence, the subplot surrounding the massacre of the raiders at the Stephen Bullock plantation strikes me likewise as gratuitous.

To me, the most intriguing thing about this novel, as well as its predecessor, are the characters of the "witch" and the members of the New Faith Brotherhood. Barbara Maglie is certainly no stereotyped witch with a black cat, cauldron, and broomstick and all. I wonder if she's really a witch at all, or just really knowledgeable about herbs and potions. Did she, for example, put some kind of hallucinogen into Jerry Copeland's and Robert Earle's drink that made them have those vivid dreams that night? And that potion she gave Loren Holder contained some very powerful poisons (monkshood, hellebore, and nightshade) along with, not surprisingly given the purpose for which he was there, some aphrodisiacs. I wasn't really quite sure what all the things in that draught were intended for!

The New Faith Brotherhood is a real puzzle to me. I really don't understand what Kunstler is trying to create through them. But just yesterday I read Lindsay Curran's discussion of Kunstler that appeared on the Energy Bulletin site. He said Kunstler had done investigative reporting of cults back in the 1970s. So he may have borrowed practices and ideas he observed in those studies as he developed his New Faith group and their practices. They certainly differ from normal Christians in a number of ways (of course, cults tend to be unorthodox). Christians are almost uniformly wary of, if not opposed to, occult activities, but the New Faithers seem to take that kind of theing in stride. The queen bee character, as you mentioned, is really, really strange. (I began wondering what they would do when she dies. Would they tell the rest of the membership and have a public funeral and burial, or would they keep her death a secret from the members and act like she was still alive?) What, I wonder, was Kunstler's inspiration for her? Finally, their casual use of violence and vigilante justice to take care of problems--as demonstrated in that clean-up of Albany in the first novel--strikes me as contrary to Christian teaching. I know, this is fiction. But I do find these spiritual and mystical aspects the most fascinating parts of the novel.

i too read WMBH and TWOH back to back. more than a few times i felt as though i was rereading the same book. with WMBH i had accepted the premise and was able to submerge in the story deep enough to take some enjoyment from it. until, that is, i was slapped in the face by the introduction of the precious mother. the addition of this character seemingly came out of nowhere and was difficult to reconcile. at that point my mission became to simply finish the book. when the magic continued into TWOH i found myself reading the book only at bedtime as an alternative to other sleep inducing agents. the addition of the sex and graphic violence in TWOH is disjointed and seems to be there only as a seasoning and not an integral part of the recipe. i can't shake the feeling that i have read these stories before under a different title by a different, more talented author. looking forward to re-reading ~alas babylon~. was just discussing it with the kids recently so perhaps copies for all

Don, I would agree with your assessment of the witch's powers being largely or entirely based on herbal knowledge except for the prevalence of characters in the story with explicitly magical powers. Mysticism can make a character more interesting or it can be used by a lazy author to tie up loose plot points. The character of the witch could have been interesting. Who is she? Why does she do what she does? Unfortunately by that point I was thinking she probably is a magical prostitute for the same reason a hermit goes to kill a catamount.

Kunstler's blog and books seem to have certain pervasive themes: 1) The economy will collapse and any technology based on fossil fuels at all will effectively cease; 2) Americans as we currently live are very poorly prepared for this collapse and therefore the collapse will be violent and nasty; 3) The collapse will bring out the worst in some of us and the post-collapse society will have power structures dominated by irrational groups of men, with government as we know it now non-existent; 4) People in general and lower-class/minority/uneducated Americans in particular are really, really, really assholes; only white educated New Englanders are quiet, strong, rational, and good.
This last theme grates on many people, and on me. I think I may be over-simplifying it some; but that's how it has struck me and many other people whose reactions I have read.
Kunstler is a very good writer, and is a very, very angry man. He has important things to say which we would all do well to pay attention to, and also has this anger which it behooves a reader to be aware of and to try to filter while reading, in order to determine what is really going on in Kunstler's psyche that causes him this pain. So, armchair psychology is required, but in my view Kunstler's writing is ultimately worth it.
I think his portrayal of female characters is skewed because, like all his characters, they are projections of his own emotional relationships with people in his own life. Every man in his books is an aspect of Kunstler, and every woman in his books is an aspect of important women in Kunstler's life. If this is a correct evaluation of how he creates characters, then by definition the female characters will be less than a person. So don't read these books to find out great psychological insights into how to be a woman in post-collapse America. Instead, read them to find out how a very, very intelligent man thinks that all relationships - economic, personal, governmental, social, sexual, internecine, familial - could, and probably will, play out, given the way things are now and the way they seem to be going.
There is one new theme in The Witch of Hebron not (it seems to me) present in any of Kunstler's other writings: 5) the theme of ESP in the form of precognition, which is linked with religious and magical rituals. I don't think any of his other writing has this theme, and it is interesting to me that a man who is so angry and defensive in public life (interviews, lectures, emails to me and to others) and so critical of irrationality should make himself so vulnerable as an author to include this theme. I don't know why he includes it, but to me it adds great depth to the writing and shows me that Kunstler's personality as readers perceive it has many mansions, and what we superficially conceive him to be is doubtless merely the tip of an iceberg. I look forward to his writing - every book, every weekly grumble at Clusterfuck Nation, every youtube interview. And I respect him immensely as a highly flawed individual who nevertheless has some ideas we should pay attention to.

I found *World Made by Hand* awful; why does the exhaustion of oil make everyone talk like a Mark Twain parody gone very wrong? I stopped reading his blog when....he was wrong. He was wrong about y2k; he was wrong about the economy collapsing, repeatedly, and his novel just stank. I especially don't like Virginia (my home) being confused with some fantasy of the Deep South a la 1960 or so.

This new novel sounds even worse.

Reading these comments, Sharon's review (all very interesting) and the authors comment ("Fuck those motherfuckers!") I'll be happy to pass on this book. Just as I have given up on his blog.

In the past month, I've picked up Witch... a couple of times, read thru a few pages, and then put it back on the bookshelf as poorly written and uninteresting. Boy, you folks are confirming in spades my quick judgement of the book. Glad to say I did not read it.

For all his loathing of late consumer culture, Jim Kunstler's 'Witch of Hebron' is a strip mall of a book. The characters are plausible enough, but thin and predictable, and the plot is Timmy & Lassie meets Road Warrior (with horses). I counted only two instances where the women appeared in context other than sex or mealtime (one of them quoted by Sharon in her review). I could go along with many of Kunstler's proposals for the future of post-collapse upstate New York, but it all seemed too tidy and homogenous. The Rich guy still had electricity because he'd built a hydroelectric generator, but no one had photovoltaics or bicycles. The 'Witch' was beautiful, resourceful, sexy and rich. The Jesus people all talked like hillbillies. Industry had uniformly collapsed back to cottage industry and there was no evidence of the considerable, if insufficient, remaining domestic coal, oil, and natural gas resources. The population impasse had also been neatly disposed of with various epidemics and nuclear wars, and all the millions of cars had been magically carried away and recycled into something or other. And all this supposedly happened within less than ten years. This is not realistic even on a cursory level, and I would like to read a book by someone with the skill to convey a more complex picture.

I usually read "Clusterfuck Nation" on Mondays but I haven't read any of Kunstler's novels and don't intend to, so perhaps I shouldn't even comment on this thread. Of course, the fact that I shouldn't comment doesn't mean that I won't.

I'd just like to stay that I think it's naive to think that women won't have a particularly tough time during the shitstorm years to come. This is not to say that some particular women won't wield a great deal of power or influence in their local spheres, especially women who happen to be the matrons of large extended families or clans. Most women, however, or women in general shall we say, I expect will have it very hard in the near future. So will men but some men will fall back on brutality as a survival mechanism and the brunt of this brutality, unfortunately, will fall on women. Or put it this way: The brutality of men on men will be lethal but that of men on women will be chronic & demeaning. The testimony of history and nature of the ape ensure this. If Kunstler said, "I'm appalled that educated, intelligent women of the boomer generation are so incapable of imagining a world where a completely different economic status has evaporated the gains of women," I'm afraid he's correct.

And another thing, Jim: While I'm not overly fond of Kunstler I believe that he should be given his due. I believe that it's incorrect to say, "He was wrong about y2k." To my mind what happened was that programmers heeded the warnings of voices like his, that raised concern about the looming problem, and fixed it before it materialized. Had these voices not been raised, he may well have been right about Y2K, after all. I feel that it's unfair to criticize those who warn others who then do something to avert disaster, for the disaster they warned of not occurring. They should be thanked, instead.

After being criticized in his first book for reducing women characters to cooks and sex partners in the future world, I was appalled to see that Kuntsler didn't learn a thing. He created a more central woman character, and then showed her function to be sex and cooking just like the others--and even though older, she retained smooth skin, lovely hair and a voluptuous figure--just what you would expect in a witch! In reality, such a woman would be the healer and religious counselor, not the 12 year old surgeon and blowhard cult leader.

Oh, and by the way, Sharon, as someone who recently met you, let me reassure you that you do NOT look like a baby boomer :-)

I liked it, Sharon. I reviewed it for the NY Journal of Books at:

http://www.nyjournalofbooks.com/review/witch-hebron

Sharon,

About "I'm appalled that . . women of the boomer generation are so incapable of imagining a . . different economic status has evaporated the gains of women. You need to get over it."

I would guess that this is a vision of Kunstler's, about how he imagines he would establish himself in tomorrow's (changed) world. I also imagine that there are some significant portion of the world that will. I point to the "gains" that don't really help battered women and other victims of domestic violence that haven't seen much "gain" in the last half century. We still have, today, men and women putting themselves in just that kind of situation.

I don't believe, however, that it is laws and prison terms regarding domestic violence that keeps this problem from spreading today, and from becoming the norm in the future.

I think the need for competent people to work together in community for the community, the family, and the individual to survive will operate to value each person according to their abilities. I think Kunstler is subconsciously thinking that the depradations of the past in times of affluence will apply when the collapse of affluence - and energy - will not make such practices sustainable.

It was the boom town, the discoveries of richly abundant resources and trade meccas that made prostitution a profitable occupation, rather than a niche, survival tactic. In the absence of abundant affluence, I question that prostitution, let alone child prostitution, will be a viable form of entertainment, or of surviving. . . Um, I don't mean that any woman of sense will grab a likely guy, and put him to work, even if she has to mate/marry the bloke. That wasn't what I meant at all. Unless she can train him to be really good with the garden and changing diapers.

Having just finished the last of the Dies the Fire books, World Made by Hand, and just read Alas Babylon last winter (second read), I disagree that Kunstler's story is better. The same, maybe worse, in my opinion. At least Dies the Fire _started_ with a 'magical' Event to get things rolling, but did not really use magic in the story line. What is the point of the magical stuff in WMBH? Just to wrap up the story? I have read enough SF&F to have a dim view of someone pulling a Deus Ex in the last 10 pages just to finish things. Set the warp drive to 14! Now we get there in time/the Bad Guy is zapped/the world is saved!! Suuure. It would have been a much better story without adding mumbo-jumbo.

And women in fiction, yeah, that is a whole separate topic.

I could rant more, but the brain is melted this afternoon. Good points Brad. Why would I trade my next meal to get laid? Or even next week's meal? Only if I am very certain I can spare it! After a few hard winters, I bet most people would have that opinion.

Jason, I defer to your reasoning. Yes, Barbara Maglie is rather one-dimensional as presented here. It was her indulgence in what Tolkien calls herb-lore that fascinated me. In the kind of world that Kunstler imagines here, that kind of knowledge will be very important.

But maybe Maglie is merely a magical prostitute. Or, to go one step further, maybe she's really a succubus. In either case, it's possible that she really did seduce Dr. Copeland and Robert Earle that night and didn't just plant something in their tea to induce vivid dreams. We aren't told where she is from, what family connections she might have or might have lost in the flu epidemic, or why she's living and growing her herbs in the rural hinterland of Union Grove. Whatever the case may be, Kunstler COULD develop her into an interesting character if he wants to do so.

A question came to me as I was typing this: Why does the title of the book refer to Barbara Maglie instead of Jasper Copeland, given that Jasper, not Barbara, is the central character in the novel?

Bizde en iyi yerlere gelmek icin bir caba icindeyiz tabiki bunun zorlugunu yasamaktayiz ama bir yola ciktik ve bunu basarmaya Ã§alismaktayiz bakalim nasÄ±l olucak istedigimize ulasabilcekmiyiz inanin boyle cok zor oluyor ama mecburuz napalim evet hayirlisi .
Herkesin birbirine yardim etmesi gerek aslinda kendilerini dusunmemeli herkes dostlarinida dusunmelidirler bence tabi bu benim fikrim tabiki

LÃTFEN Ä°NGÄ°LÄ°ZCE.

Just reacting to Kunstler's "I'm appalled that educated, intelligent women of the boomer generation are so incapable of imagining a world where a completely different economic status has evaporated the gains of women."

It is he who is incapable of imagining such a world. He simply declares it. He does not tell us how it came to be. He does not develop the logic of it. And that is why the reader is left with the impression that it is that way in the books simply because Kunstler likes it that way.

I think that he is a shallow, blah fiction writer though he is definitely an amusing ranter in non-fiction contexts.

Well, since I've only read half the book, I only skimmed a few of the comments, so as to try to avoid spoilers.
I enjoy Kunstler's writing a lot. This certainly doesn't mean I don't think it has flaws, or that I agree with everything he says. I actually find it much more interesting to read a writer I don't completely agree with than one I do.
I guess some people like him and some don't. What surprises me is the intensity of the dislike. What also surprises me is the fact that he's so damn touchy about any criticism. But in both cases I just shrug and think, well, whatever.
Some of the criticism is along the lines of "he's not very nice." But would you say the same of Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, H. L. Menken, Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, R. Crumb, Bill Mahrer ... or, say, William F. Buckley? A writer has no obligation to be nice. Do you really not enjoy a writer who can skewer their opponents? If a writer finds something odious or stupid, why shouldn't they say so in the strongest possible terms? If Kunstler finds aspects of southern culture disgusting, why shouldn't he feel free to rant on the topic? Ridicule can have a positive outcome. After the Scopes trial, Menken et al subjected the Bible-thumpers to withering mockery -- and in response, they slunk off into the woodwork, and pretty much withdrew from national politics and debates for decades. Which was a good thing.
The comment that he "just likes to show off his big vocabulary" left me puzzled. While the "he's not very nice" criticism refers to something real (he's not always), this one doesn't seem to. I don't recall a particularly big or exotic vocabulary in Long Emergency.
The gender stuff bothered me, too. Why would (all) women timidly withdraw to such a constrained role? It doesn't seem credible. There are a lot of other things -- details -- in the World Made by Hand world that don't seem credible to me. The lack of cats and dogs (any culture that grows grain keeps cats; any culture that hunts or has security issues would find dogs useful; feral dogs and cats would be common -- feral dog packs would be a great danger, in fact). The relative scarcity of firearms. The apparent lack of any kind of printing or publishing. And yet, the ubiquity of glass window panes (made where? by who?) -- and, it seems, functioning plumbing systems.
But it was the magic that bothered me the most, when I read World Made by Hand. (Kunstler apparently dismissed a questioner who raised this issue, accusing them of a "lack of imagination." Whatever.)I thought it was going to be a realistic novel, with realistic ideas about how the world might turn out to be. So when it turned out that some people had magic powers, I was disappointed and frustrated. It may well be true that if modern industrial society collapses, people will develop/revive magical belief systems. But just because belief in magic re-appears, that doesn't mean actual magic will become real. It won't. In the middle ages when everybody, I guess, believed in various magical things,nonetheless those things weren't real in actual objective fact. I found this really annoying.
But in reading Witch of Hebron, that doesn't bother me any more, and neither does the gender thing (much), or the dogs, cats, windowpanes, etc. That's because I knew going in that it's a fantasy world where magic exists, people have inexplicably started talking in a quasi-19th-century dialect (and even swapped 20th century names for food items, using the antique phrases instead), and women have adopted a sort of mythical "stay in the home" role, and people who subsist mainly on corn don't have cats, and they are capable of making windowpanes but not newspapers. It's not meant to be credible, I guess. It is what it is, a quirky hypothetical scenario.
But within this world, I'm enjoying the stories Kunstler tells -- because I enjoy his prose, and he can draw characters that the reader cares about. You start wondering what will happen to them and hoping they are okay. Their emotions and their fallibility (as Sharon mentioned) are engaging. There is some psychological realism there, even though the wold itself is not a realistic extrapolation or speculation, in my view. At least many details are off. People are not going to acquire magic powers, women are not going to slink back into the "barefoot in the kitchen" roles (at least not all women, and not without some struggle and contention and it being an issue!), cats and dogs will be around, windowpanes may not be.
Still, they are fun stories in my opinion! And even the things you don't like about Kunstler -- his errors, flaws, annoying habits, or blindspots -- get you thinking, and arguing with him in your head, and figuring out how your own opinions differ. I think that's good!

I read WMBH and TWOH back to back as well and was not favorably impressed by either the writing or the stories. Of the two I preferred WMBH. And even though I mostly liked Jasper Copeland's character, the supernatural elements of TWOH turned me off - magic is a nice way to handle things you can't handle any other way. One thing I have been trying to figure out though is if Kunstler was trying to make some oppositional thing between the characters of Barbara Maglie and the queen bee. If so, it failed with me. I'm from Georgia so agree with my fellow southerners here who object to the shallow characterization of the southerners in the books. When I was talking about TWOH with my husband, he reminded me of this quote from Flannery O'Connor: "Whenever Iâm asked why Southern writers particularly have a penchant for writing about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one." Maybe this applies to "Southern readers", too, because several of THOH characters fall into this category.

Mike, regarding the vocabulary comment, I wish I hadn't already returned TLE to the library. I wouldn't have noticed the unnecessarily obscure vocabulary if it weren't totally obnoxious, and I wish I could quote you some of it. And you're right about the value of disagreeing with an author, because defending one's positions helps clarify them. If Kunstler were viciously attacking intellectual opponents, or mainstream American culture, I would be fine with that. But, to be blunt, Kunstler is a bigoted, sexist jerk, and that's not the same as "not being nice". Do you think people who publicly rant about blacks or Jews being the downfall of America should be given a pass because they're entitled to their own opinions? If not, why are Mexicans and Southerners fair game?

Mike, That was a well-stated defense. I agree that the criticism of an overly large or exotic vocabulary is not a legitimate one, either in the case of Kunstler or even in general terms to any author. If I have to consult a dictionary to read something then, hey, I've learned a few new words. I also agree you have to give license to an author to create his own world within his book, so I try to avoid complaining about the many silly incongruities in his vision of the future: within eight years of collapse people suddenly reverting to 19th century dialect, the implausible hit and miss of preserved technology, and the magic being the three most obvious. So I'll give him a pass on those things if they don't detract too much from the story and the characters. Where we disagree though is your assertion "he can draw characters that the reader really cares about". I find his characters to be cartoonish. Although characters like Brother Jobe or the witch are at first enigmatic, unfortunately the little that is eventually revealed makes their characters shallower instead of adding depth. Ding dang dad and his ding dang dealership! Other characters like Stephen Bullock, the virile uberman ninja John Galtish never even hint at having any depth. Likewise all the women. The story itself, as Sharon pointed out, is extremely predictable and everything is telegraphed ahead in nine mile high bold. So with a simplistic story and paper-thin characters, all we are left with is the intriguing setting... and now all those poorly thought out incongruities become more glaring and objectionable.

I'd like to add my agreement to Eric and dveej above, and then to add this: I think one of the reasons this book tends to appeal is that it's so very familiar. I don't mean that it's just another American coming-of-age novel (though it's undoubtedly this) or that it falls into any number of other genres such as the picaresque novel and a parody of the Grail Quest. What's really familiar is this:

It's the same society we live in *now*. It's reflecting *exactly* the same cultural values--though they tend to hide behind the comforting fiction that we're all, really, at the root, nice people just trying to get along in a strange new world.

I'm going to sort of lump the two books together and talk about the "world" they create, just for the sake of ease here, because in that way I can make some points about the dangerous replications of prejudice and social structure that I find fascinating in a writer as vocally against many of them as Kunstler is. So here goes:

1. Corporations rule. How this could possibly be, in the world described, is incredible. But what seems to be happening here is that corporations are being set up with very little resistance from the town they surround. Whether you look at the Bullock plantation, the New Faithers, or the former-Karp gang, the pattern is the same: the accumulation of resources and expansion of influence (in some cases the actual resetting of a proto-capitalist economy, both in the case of the New Faith mercantile and the "General") with power and wealth accruing both to the organizations as a whole, and to specific individuals who run them.

2. Geopolitics and American right to dominance are re-affirmed. This is an even more sinister reflection of current reality. Here, I'll go to WMBH for an example. Wayne Karp is seen to be a disruptive force. If you look at Karptown, you can actually see that this disruption is built into certain kinds of assumptions about how the "other" lives. That is, people who are of a lower socio-economic class than the middle-class white townies are assumed to sort of "naturally" be more primitive. There's a nauseating inherent racism in aligning their system of society with that of the Iroqois nation, which is actually done openly in WMBH. Be this as it may, the allegorical setup here seems to be that the "true American" town is able to deal quite happily with the New Faithers who blend in (more or less) and with the Bullock people (who are, after all, civilized), but cannot cope with a "primitive" (read "poor") culture on the borders. The assumption built into the novel is that they are dangerous and unpredictable, and therefore must be disempowered. The is particularly true when the culture manages to send (in Derick Jensen's terms) violence *up* the power hierarchy, which is what happens when Robert Earle and Loren Holder are brutalized. What's especially interesting here is that as both constable and minister, Loren is symbolic of the junction of church and state, which is enshrined, after all, on American money . . . at any rate, the answer not only from the town but also from the town's allies is either a condemnatory script (Bullock) or an alliance to remove the person in power (town and New Faith) . . . which allows easier access to the resources being (interestingly) *mined* from an otherwise desolate spot. In the end, I was a bit suprised Wayne Karp wasn't named "Saddam" or "Osama" and made Arabic. In a fascinating nod to realism, no word is ever said about improving the living conditions of those who live at the dump, and are denuding the surrounding area just to survive while they serve the town's needs . . . but back to the Witch of Hebron, because this brings me to . . .

2. The poor and homeless are always suspect, generally violent, and ought to be eradicated. I have to say, this was the most revolting parallel to the present day this novel presented. The homeless are renamed "pickers," and are presented as senseless, violent, and irredeemable. We are, I suppose, expected to side with Bullock simply because of the sexual violence of the attack on the Bullock plantation. But honestly and truly, could we not be a bit kinder, even in fiction, to those most vulnerable in our society? Is there really a need to assuage our own fears of the "other" by brutalizing them in print, as well as in whatever we call "real life"?

3. Speaking of brutal, a minor nod to gender. Only a minor one, since I'm sure this will be taken up by others . . . but apart from the sex-bunny-sandwich-maker role women are relegated to, and dodging the temptation to indulge in Lacanian Psychoanalysis (because it would be so darned easy it almost wouldn't be fun), I have to say that the role of the *most* developed and strongest female character, Barbara Maglie, seems to be (once again) to re-inscribe the dominant culture of current North America. That is, the role of the "good whore" is to make men more potent,and reassert the primacy of the phallus (sorry, couldn't help myself. The nonsense with Loren Holder was just too obvious and crass to avoid psychoanalyzing). In addition, that a woman as strong and independent as she is supposed to be has to be saved from a sexual attack by a pre-teen boy with a firearm (ahem. phallus again . . .) is simply ludicrous. Which brings me to . . .

4. Men. Again. My point here is that this novel is so completely familiar because it mirrors current culture so exactly. All that's changed seems to be the level of technology. All else has been reinscribed, and it's business as usual. Because guess who's doing the business? Men. Middle aged men, for the most part, who become the most powerful organizational forces (if they're sexually able and satisfied) or pathetic (if they lose the power of the phallus. I'm sorry, it's so obvious it's impossible not to talk about this in symbolic psychoanalytical terms!.

I think the book--and Kunstler's other PA novel, WMBH, will sell reasonably well because they *don't* challenge us. They reassure us that if the lights go out and the cars stop running, life will go on exactly as it does now, only MORE, and possibly on a smaller scale. Our society will become an exaggeration of itself.

I think this is also one of the reasons that feminist eco-topias, or feminist PA novels, tend to be less read and less well known. The changing of the social structure is, almost be definition, so complete, that there's no familiarity, and we don't know how to place ourselves in the narrative as a result.

Just my two cents.

Very interesting and thoughtful analysis, ALA. I think I can agree with much of it. One small correction, though: "a woman as strong and independent as she is supposed to be has to be saved from a sexual attack by a pre-teen boy with a firearm (ahem. phallus again . . .)"

The boy didn't have the gun; Billy Bones had it. Jasper knew that Bones didn't have ammunition for it, so he recognized the emptiness of Bones' threat to shoot him. Jasper defended Barbara with a hunting knife, not a firearm.

I quite liked the Witch herself. With her swishy skirts and her herb garden, she reminded me of several actual people. It's not THAT realistic, though. The State of Washington would make her get a counseling license, a naturopathy license and a Class I controlled substances permit.

I liked the The Witch of Hebron for what it is, a rollicking B-movie gory lurid Western. With supernatural elements, crimminy, doesn't that tell the reader not to get too wrapped up in the question of "Is this for real?"

My review is here: http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2010-11-09/hamster-reviews-witch-…

Ok, back with a full tummy and a shorter workday.
WMBH was a nice read. His writing style was very nice and I was pulled along by the story. It was afterwards that I started to have doubts. And yes, as others have pointed out, why magic? As in real magic? It takes away from the story.

And ALA, wow! That was quite an assessment. Personally, not every tree, stick, or long object is a phallus to me. But I get your point. I think Niven was pretty straightforward in Lucifer's Hammer about an Event meaning women have to 'get thee to the kitchen'. Dies the Fire took a different approach, perhaps more pragmatic, perhaps not. What titles count as 'feminist PA novels'? I would be interested in reading some.

Hamster, I enjoyed your review. I'm thinking maybe I am overstating my problems with this book. It's not like it is the worst thing I have ever read, I really didn't feel all that strongly about it one way or another when I was reading it. Since then I've read three books that actually were very well done and the juxtaposition in my mind may be coloring TWOH into something worse than it actually is.

Kunstler's a decent writer, but to understand him you have to understand his Jewishness. His contempt for the South, his rah-rah-go-team boostering of the Iraq War in his The Long Emergency, all the little digs and jabs about fried pork products, NASCAR, etc. It only makes sense that in his future-world, prostitutes would accept pay in pork products.

How would all this play, if it were written by an author who had a problem with those of African descent, and had constant jabs about rhythmic music, meat'n'greens, the NBA, and the jabs were constant, saying that in the future, prostitutes would be paid in, say, high-alcohol low-quality "malt liquor" or "cheap 'bling'" etc? It wouldn't play for a minute, and if I were of African descent I'd sure not give the guy a nickel.

Hence, while I've read his books, and found the interweaving of happenings and lives in Hebron to be quite interesting, with the incomplete knowledge or understanding of each others' travels and actions adding interesting tension, I've taken care to not pay for Kunstler's output. I've borrowed his books from others, and frankly I'm kinda ashamed to have read the things.

Jim's gonna have to get over his problem with us. And maybe therein lies the true horror: That in the Future, one will have to share the world with Gentiles.

Kunstler's a decent writer, but to understand him you have to understand his Jewishness.

The thing that disgusted me about Kunstler was the utter glee he seemed to take in Israel's disproportionate pounding of the civilian population of Gaza two years ago. Of course I do not condone Hamas firing rockets into Israel and feel that Israel is justified in taking steps to put a stop to it, but their response in this case was out of all proportion to the provocation. Reading Kunstler's rant at the time, I got the impression that he would have been thrilled had a small tactical nuke been employed against the Palestinians, instead of "merely" white phosphorus munitions. Maybe it's true that people always turn into the thing they hate most.

One of the reasons I belong to three books clubs â thanks for bringing this one back, Sharon â is that book clubs push me out of my comfort zone into reading books I would never read otherwise. I certainly wouldnât have read The Witch of Hebron, because I found A World Made by Hand neither informative, thought-provoking, entertaining, nor beautifully written (the four reasons for which I read books). I donât begrudge the time I spent reading The Witch of Hebron (although I firmly believe that life is too short to read bad books) because I enjoy a good book discussion, and this discussion has been that â many good points made. But I am regretful that I spent money on the book, thereby voting for James Kunstler with my dollars. I could have gotten everything that I got from the book from his blog, ad nauseum, week after week. Yes, we know: the world is going to hell in a handbasket, suburban America is leading the way, and people are stupid. At least Stirling is fun and McCarthy a wonderful wordsmith. Kunstler did teach me the world âpolymathâ though. After he used it twice to describe the town librarian, I looked it up. I have to wonder, though: are postapocalyptic librarians paid in pork, like the prostitutes and doctors?

Wow, Lex, do explain to us how Kunstler's Jewishness explains all of this. Jews are racist, anti-southern, hate pork products (I'm pretty damned sure that Jim Kunstler ate a lot of pork in his life - he's Jewish, but not at all observant), support the Iraq war. Got any other stupid, anti-semitic stereotypes to share with us. Want to explain how my Jewishness explains everything I do? Jews must all be gardening, leftist, anti-oil war, anti-Hamas bombing farmers, right?

Sheesh. Could you at least save that shit for another blog?

Sharon

Sounds to me like Jim really just needs to accept that what he really wants to be writing is historical / fantasy fiction. There's no shame in it.

I'll add this to my "don't bother" list...

#35:

I've got to say, Sharon, that I think you're being unfair to lex. James Kunstler happens to be a man. You've promised an entire blog post pertaining to gender issues in his fiction, in which I'm sure his own gender will play a factor. He also happens to be Jewish. Why isn't it likewise legitimate to explore how his Jewish self-identification pertains to whatever biases he may or may not have towards other groups, be they Gentiles in general, conservative tattooed southern American fried pork rind eating NASCAR fans, or Palestinians? You may not agree with lex's assessment of Kunstler's bias or motives - I don't happen to agree with them too much myself - but this is no reason to dismiss or ridicule his opinions. It's a reason to calmly refute them, rather. I don't see where lex was being overtly, or even unconsciously anti-Semitic. Then again, I'm not overly sensitive about the issue. The only anti-Semite I can identify here is Kunstler himself. He's blatantly bigoted against the Semitic speaking Palestinians.

DD, I don't think Kunstler's sex issues stem from him being a man - I know many men who don't have these. If I said "Jim Kunstler writes dumb-ass women because he's a man and he doesn't understand women" I'd be a sexist pig. Just like Lex's "Jim Kunstler thinks what he does because he's a Jew" is antisemitic - in fact, it is the definition of sexist or antisemitic to assume that one's positions stem entirely from one's identity.

I think Jim Kunstler doesn't write good women characters, and doesn't understand why women care about that, but I don't generally speculate about why that is. Attributing personal motivations isn't my primary hobby - I work from the assumption that anyone, man or woman, can understand women enough to write them well (or men, for that matter) and that the problem is that he doesn't.

So no, you've got it pretty wrong here.

Sharon

So no, you've got it pretty wrong here.

Okay, Sharon. I defer to you on this.

Yikes, I wasn't aware that Kunstler supported both the Iraq & Gaza invasions - the two obviously wrongest wars in the last decade at least. I'm glad I got his book from the library.

IMO, Kunstler is a bigot. His constant putdowns of southerners and others that are for him beyond the pale, is what chased me off his blog.

More than that... he is a gleeful, proud bigot. Bah humbug.

My biggest complaint (for the topic of this post) is Kunstler's incorporation of magic into the plot line. Even though I felt that most of the characters in WMBH were rather flat, (and we wont touch the role of women right now) I rather enjoyed reading about a future possible world. With the introduction of real magic though, in my mind it shifted from "possible future senerio" to mediocre fiction that no longer had anything to do with peak oil. I also thought it would be interesting to read further about how the town organized itself and/or possibly focus on Robert and his new family, but I felt that TWOH had no real protagonist and all the point of view switches between characters made it hard to like or care about any of them.

Not having read Kunstler before (not even _The Long Emergency_) I thought he was focusing so much on post peak oil life that he didn't go though the trouble of developing any believable female characters, but after reading TWOH, I really think he demeans the role of women in ANY society and doesn't care. But, Sharon says she'll do another post concerning Kunstler and his portrayal of women later, so I'll leave my rant for that post.

No offense, but reality folks. Being furious that someone presumes that women's status will be reduced if modern society fails -- ummm.... counterproductive? History and any understanding of human nature indicates that in an agricultural society (which is what would reappear in his future) women WILL return to being sex objects, cooks, and possibly even less. Egalitarianism is a direct function of high technology.

Now, for the record, not everyone reading this believes that future is inevitable, or even that a similar future is inevitable - a great deal of time is spent lashing the future with a whip - let's back science and technology NOW and see where we end up, shall we?

Regards,

Reyn

PANRC Updates - Circulating Copies of Prelude and Scheduling

sastyk — Mon, 29 Nov 2010 06:42:03 +0000

PANRC Updates - Circulating Copies of Prelude and Scheduling

Two updates for the Post-Apocalyptic Novel Reading Club. First, I realized that I have scheduled two things for the first of the upcoming month - my "Anyway Project" updates and the first discussion of _The Witch of Hebron_. This is far more than I am likely to accomplish, so I've decided my PANRC will start on the 7th - so you all have an extra reading week. In both cases, the dates are slightly fungible given that your blogiste is a bit of a slacker - if they fall on a Shabbos, holiday or something else important, it will simply be the nearest possible date. But for this month, Anyway comes on the first day of the month, PANRC the following Tuesday.

Also, Kurt Cobb kindly sent me three copies of _Prelude_ to mail around. What I'll do is send them to the first three requests I get at my email address (jewishfarmer@gmail.com). When you are done, email me, and I'll post your email addresses (yes, you have to be willing to have your addy appear on my blog - I don't have time to arrange all the hookups myself) and you can send it to the next person in line. To make it quicker, if you don't hear back from whoever is doing the sending within 48 hours, assume you are *not* getting a copy on this round. My guess is that we can get these copies around to at least 6-8 readers each in the time between now and the end of January. Whoever holds them at the end can donate them to their local library.

Edited to Add - First three copies are already allocated - you can still be the next recipient, though! Hold that thought until we announce.

Cheers,

Sharon

sastyk Mon, 11/29/2010 - 01:42

Tags

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

PANRC

post-apocalyptic novel

Amazon claims my copy is sitting in my PO box right now. I just need to coordinate access hours and vehicular usage...

Once I'm done reading it, I'm happy to loan it to others. I'll write my email inside because I'd kinda like to have it back after the discussion to give to someone else.

January PANRC Selection "Prelude" is Out!!

sastyk — Tue, 16 Nov 2010 07:53:47 +0000

January PANRC Selection "Prelude" is Out!!

PANRC, by the way, is the acronym for "Post-Apocalyptic Novel Reading Club" pronounced by those in the know (ie, the person who just made this up 3 seconds ago) as "Panric" ;-). And while December's selection (we'll start on 12/1), Jim Kunstler's _The Witch of Hebron_ has been out for a bit, Kurt Cobb's _Prelude_ (which is, in fact, an immediately pre-apocalyptic novel) is now out. YAY!!!!

I've read _Prelude_ and besides the fact that I think it is fun and readable - a peak oil novel someone might actually read for fun - I think what Cobb is doing is important and I want to support it. There are simply too many people out there who will never sit through a talk or read a book of non-fiction about our energy situation, but who would read a novel that lays the issues out clearly in the language of fiction. Cobb took on this project, not to write a best-selling novel, but to write the kind of book you can give to your sister-in-law who won't read the other books you want to give her!

As of now the story of peak oil has yet to reach the broad public, most of whom have never even heard the term, let alone contemplated its significance. Without broad public awareness it will be difficult for politicians and policymakers at all levels to find support for initiatives aimed at addressing peak oil.

When I conceived of Prelude three years ago, it was based on the notion that ideas only become widely dispersed in the public mind when they are infused in the arts. Since then several peak oil-themed novels have found their way to the bookstore shelves. Most of these, it turns out, are based either on an apocalyptic vision of a post-peak oil world or on the device of a sudden, catastrophic loss of oil, often through means that have little to do with peak oil production as it is commonly conceived.

I decided to create a narrative set firmly in contemporary society. I wanted a story that would reframe the way people read the daily news and the way they interpret their everyday experience. My premise was that readers would more readily identify with a world familiar to them than one set in the distant future or transfigured by an imaginary crisis.

A lot of the work that I do, that Cobb does, that all of us do is frustrating and kind of dull - we have to say the same thing over and over and over again until people hear it. I know I'd much rather go on to the next topic - I don't want to explain peak oil again, or climate change. But the reality is that until the general populace is ready to go there, thousands of us have to spend some of our time saying "here, look, this is important." Because if there are a million people who grasp peak oil in the US and a few million in the world, that's not enough - not enough to do what we need.

Cobb has done the community an enormous service by writing this. He's also written a good book - which is a service in itself. In many ways, I think his book is even more useful than the post-apocalyptic fiction that references peak oil like Kunstler's books or _Julian Comstock_ - because a lot of people who need these concepts aren't ready to go straight into the full darker implications of them. Cobb's is a transitional space, and one that was desperately needed. I'm excited that the book is out, and I hope many of you will read it, encourage your library to purchase it, or give it as a gift to that person you think it might influence.

I know in choosing a new book, I've made it hard for some of my lower-income readers, so Cobb has generously offered to donate a few copies that can be circulated by mail among my readers who genuinely can't afford to buy it and can't get it through their library systems. I have a copy as well that I'd be happy to share with others. We can set up a mail system to ensure that as many people possible get it. I know this places a burden on some readers, but I also think that if we want there to be more mainstream peak oil novels (and hey, I want to write one), the best way we can show that there is an audience for this is to support the work.

Kurt Cobb has also agreed to participate in our discussion about the book that will make it a lot of fun. I'll be extending the same offer to any living authors that we choose who I can locate and get in touch with, including Jim Kunstler, although I can't speak to their availability or interest. As you may remember, we had several spontaneous participations in the last PANRC discussions, most notably SM Stirling, which was terrific.

I know I'm looking forward to all this!

Sharon

sastyk Tue, 11/16/2010 - 02:53

Tags

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

If your library doesn't carry Prelude, you can suggest it to them (and ask your friends to suggest it too). Your library might even have a way to do this online. You'll be doing the rest of your city a favor!

Sharon, this post reminds me to ask, when will the discussion begin on The Witch of Hebron, and how will you announce it? With a blog post?

I just started reading Witch of Hebron--I'm about four or five chapters into it. I completed World Made By Hand first, so I would have the background. It was a very interesting story, and the writing style is not at all like Kunstler's non-fiction. I will especially be interested in how your readers react to the New Faith sect and their strange leader, Brother Jobe.

"style is not at all like Kunstler's non-fiction"

You mean he doesn't swear every other sentence, shriek about the well-deserved certain doom awaiting southerners and suburbanites, or suggest that we declare war against every Muslim man, woman and child on the planet? Good for him, if so - maybe he's gotten his meds adjusted. I'm still never paying another dollar of royalties to that man, sorry.

Dewey:

Well, if you put it that way, yes, the style is different. And FWIW, I borowed a copy of Witch from the library, and my copy of World Made By Hand is a remainder. So I didn't give JHK any royalties either.

Sharon, I just noticed your comment that we'll begin discussing Witch in December. I'm sorry I missed that comment. I thought we were going to start it this month.

I definitely need to loook for Prelude!

Sharon,

Your point about sharing the knowledge to those that can't afford to buy a copy is very good.

For the rest though, consider something Anne McCaffrey wrote 30 years ago or more. That the one to be encouraged is the publisher, 'cause if the copies don't sell, they look to other authors and other genres and topics for something to publish next month and next year.

If you like an author, Anne requests, *buy* a copy to give to the friend, or for a gift. One of the things book lovers usually discover very early on, is that you seldom "loan" a book - it just never doesn't come back, usually. It is better to keep your beloved, pristine tome, and encourage friends (and publishers) with fresh copies that represent (commercially) true interest in the story, the author, and the topic.

I have three copies of McCaffrey's "Dragonsong", and three of C.J. Cherryh's Pride of Chanur. I can't find a fresher copy of "The Ship Who Sang", dang it. And two copies of Programming Perl. (One at home, one for work ;-)

Will it be available anywhere other than Amazon? (I fear ordering a hundred books if I order one!)

I'm surprised at the price - it appears to be double what I'm used to seeing paperbacks at. Do we know why?

I enjoyed the chapter 1 excerpt! Given the author's background credentials, can I assume the technical descriptions are accurate? (I haven't the fainest idea how they produce oil from tar sands, and was surprised to 'learn' it's rude to call them tar sands!)

I was shocked to learn that my partner-in-farm (aka housemate except that I'm building my own cabin on the property instead of sharing the house) does not know about peak oil. At least not in the technical Hubbert's curve sense. I get the impression she senses gas and propane are going to become largely unaffordable, and grocery stores unreliable, thus the motivation for developing independent homesteading skills, but I haven't been able to learn her external motivations/expectations. she's not a reader - it's my job to research and learn then point her to relevant sections of homesteading books. But she'll read novels, especially when she's sick. A perfect example of the target market for this book.

I had the pleasure of chatting briefly with Kurt Cobb at the 2010 Sustainability conference in Grand Rapids last weekend. Nice guy. Very well informed. I'm looking forward to reading Prelude.

Funny, at first glance I thought the title of this posting was January PANIC Selection. D'ya think I've already read enough Kunstler for awhile? ;-)

I have a book of mine in press on "Energy and the Environment" and am frustrated at the lethargy of the public about problems of the climate and energy which I feel can threaten the existence of our civilization. My book is an attempt to explain these problems in ways that non-specialists can understand. I hope yours may help bring awareness and desire to learn and act. I'd be very interested in furtherv discussions and to learn more..

Best regards,
Dick Stein
Goessmann Professor of Chemistry, Emeritud
University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and
Member, National Avademies of Science asnd of Engineering

@Purdum: I also had the pleasure of meeting Kurt Cobb at the same conference last weekend. In fact, I was able to peruse his proof copy of "Prelude" and after reading just a dozen pages, I am hooked. I'm looking forward to the delivery of my very own copy from Amazon this week.

Yes, you can assume Kurt knows the field and did his homework. He's a really great writer, a good guy and very smart. Dick, my husband teaches environmental physics at the Gen Ed level and is always on the lookout for more books like yours - drop me an email at jewishfarmer@gmail.com - I'd like to hear more about it!

Sharon

My library is underfunded and not buying many new books lately. I happen to work there, doing interlibrary loans, so I'm also aware that most libraries won't lend new books to other libraries until the books are around a year old. So I will have difficulty obtaining either "Witch" or "Prelude" for quite a while unless I decide to buy them myself. Which, considering my own finances, I probably won't. So, just a thought for the planning of these group reads -- as much fun as it is to read a newly-released book, choosing year-plus-since-publication books will expand the group that is able to participate! (and maybe the authors will have more time to participate in discussions by then, too)

So, I'm interested in being on the mail-lend-list for either/both of these books, if possible! Thanks, Sue

oh goody! I can't wait to read this book. I easily ordered and received (after being #37 or so on the waiting list) The Witch of Hebron from my library.
So far there is nothing by Kurt Cobb, esp. this book "Prelude" in our library catalog. I am always writing them notes and asking them to order books I feel are important. I will do so for this book too.
Yet, my financial situation is extremely tight this year, and with Hanukkah coming so early and Xmas 3 weeks behind, there will be no extraneous spending for two months, if that were possible.
Can someone please share their copy with me when they are done reading it? I'm very respectful of books and will send it right back or forward it on to the next person if we get a list going.
Thanks again for all you do and you teach and inspire me Sharon!
Misi

This book club is a fun idea. I'm looking forward to Prelude. I'm about halfway through Witch of Hebron, though I put it aside for awhile because I'm also reading several other books.
Dewey, your assessment of Kunstler seems to be based on his weekly blog, where he adopts a certain "schtick" or persona where he vents. Sometimes his hyperbole is over-the-top, and I certainly don't agree with all his opinions (I'm not even sure he would himself, on reflection -- but blogging is like that), but I'm not offended, as you are, that he expresses them forcefully. Sometimes it's quite entertaining. There's nothing really wrong in my opinion with using wit, sarcasm or ridicule to attack stupidity. As Kunstler has noted, "ridicule is the unfortunate fate of the ridiculous." And sometimes that is quite entertaining, too! (As a cartoonist, I have to defend the right to ridicule the ridiculous.)
On the other hand, if you read Kunstler's books, you find less of that. If you listen to his weekly podcasts with Duncan Crary, he's more considered and levelheaded, and usually not rude. And in his fiction, this may surprise you, but he seems to be actually empathetic with various sorts of people, and insightful into human feelings. Some of the writing is very moving, in my opinion.
I have some quibbles with his "World Made by Hand" fictional world, as a "prediction." Maybe I'll mention those in another post when the book-reading period has begun (there are certainly valid criticisms to be made of some of his blind spots). But I don't think he intends it as a prediction, just as a speculative scenario that lends itself to interesting stories. And the stories are fun to read -- he tells a good tale. They reflect his own personality, interests, concerns and background, of course -- as any writer's work does. I do think the first duty of a fiction writer is to their story, not to some didactic purpose. Especially if they are already writing a bunch of nonfiction that serves that purpose. So I hope Cobb's book works as actual fiction, not just a dramatized lecture. And I'm happy to contribute to Kunstler's royalty income.

I am reading "Prelude" right now at Sharon's recommendation. I'm not impressed. It is an interesting little text on peak oil but as a literary effort (story-writing) I rate him at about a C-. Mystery writers like Tony Hillerman, Dana Stabenow, Margaret Coel, etc. are much better story-tellers. Cobb writes cardboard characters and cartoonish situations. I did not find the story gripping; in fact I had no problem putting it down and going to bed last night. I'm not sure that I will even bother finishing the book. The peak oil ideas are not new (to me or I suspect to this crowd) though they are presented well.

I'm being a contrarian I know, even heretical, but I thought an alternative perspective might be worthwhile.

Back to the Post-Apocalypse!

sastyk — Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:17:12 +0000

Back to the Post-Apocalypse!

With November coming 'round tomorrow, I realize my chances of re-starting the post-apocalyptic reading group for November 1 are probably pretty faint ;-). Again, this is pretty much a reflection of where my brain is these days. I *meant* to get us started for ummm...tomorrow. But while I realize my readers are a brilliant and uniquely talented bunch, probably obtaining and reading the novel by tomorrow is a little unfair. I would, of course, never suggest that your genius blogiste couldn't do it.

So, here is my official announcement - we're getting started again as of December 1, and I can't resist making the first read James Howard Kunstler's _The Witch of Hebron_ which I've already commented a bit on over at ye olde blogge.

Following up on the peak oil theme for January 1, we're going to read Kurt Cobb's new e-book _Prelude_ which is actually not a post-apocalyptic novel, but a pre-apocalyptic novel - a peak oil thriller. But since foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds and Emerson said so, I feel completely free to inconsistently say that Cobb's novel counts.

After that, we'll do a mix of my selections from your long list of excellent suggestions and probably some democratic voter choice. I'm looking forward to my once-a-month doom fix, aren't you?

Sharon

sastyk Sun, 10/31/2010 - 09:17

Tags

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

Cobb

Kunstler

post-apocalyptic novel

Prelude

reading group

Witch of Hebron

The best pre/post apocalyptic book I've read in a while is Daemon by Daniel Suarez

Shouldn't one read before taking on The Witch of Hebron? I started World a few months ago and didn't get very far; I stopped when other, more immediate, reading needs caught me. But can one read Witch without first understanding the kind of world Kunstler paints in the earlier novel?

I don't know what happened to my post; since I can't edit it here, I'll try again. Shouldn't one read World Made By Hand before taking on The Witch of Hebron? I started World a few months ago and didn't get very far; I stopped when other, more immediate, reading needs caught me. But can one read Witch without first understanding the kind of world Kunstler paints in the earlier novel?

Hi Don - I haven't the faintest idea, but I guess we'll find out, right? Seriously, I'm not going to require background reading, and I have read TWMBH, so I can't tell you. We'll just have to see how it goes, right?

Sharon

If peak-oil thrillers now constitute a genre, I think Last Light by Alex Scarrow should be on the list. Disturbingly plausible (apart from the secret global conspiracy of course ;)

I swore I wasn't going to read Kunstler's blog anymore, after his championing of Israeli brutality towards Palestinians in Gaza a couple years ago, but after awhile I started reading him on Mondays once again. I love the way that he rants against tattooing; saying that it used to be only cannibals, pirates & whores who were tattooed and how widespread tattooing portends the breakdown of civil society. Well, I believe that I prefer the company of cannibals, pirates & whores to that of socialized civilazados, tattooed or not. His weekly blog is good for a hoot but I'm sure not going to waste my time on his book length fiction.

I recently reread Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek (1974) and have been reading excerpts from Thoreau's journal. Bartram's Travels (1791) is on the docket for this winter. In nonfiction I'm reading James Valentine's Origin of Phyla (2006). Journals that I regularly peruse include Copeia & Systematic Zoology.

I refrained from chiming in with recommendations on the dystopian or post-apocalyptic theme, but please consider the work of Doris Lessing, especially her 1974 Memoirs of a Survivor, which she described as her "dream autobiography." The character of Hugo the cat-dog, who is in constant danger of being eaten by feral children, is I believe rather unique in literature. Lessing won the Nobel Prize for literature in 2007, which she richly deserved. Her best works, however, are her tales of growing up in apartheid Rhodesia, as collected in her African Stories (1964) and other later collections. Her descriptions of the suffering imposed on Africans by their white overlords is blood curdling, and may well offer insight into conditions in the resource depleted near future.

Oh Sharon, I don't know what to do. I read all your blog posts and I agree with all the facts, and I love all your great work advice on growing food sustainably, and I love that you live your principles so well, but I just can't stand this tone of plastic glumness in anticipation of the crumbling of civilization. I don't have the emotionial resilience to spend my time reading post-apocalyptic books and contemplating a world where life expectancy goes back to 25. I'm committed to preparing for the worst, but I can't celebrate it. I also can't easily proceed with my life without have hope for a little contiuned technological comfort for the friends I'm going to leave behind. So I'm going to work quietly for the best future we can practicably achieve.

Sharon--sounds good. I'm looking forward to reading some fiction again. I've been away from it too long.

This one has always been my favorite- although it doesn't deal much with peak oil issues:

A Canticle for Leibowitz -

by Walter M. Miller Jr.

Earth Abides

Maybe not your typical post-apocalyptic novel, so it probably won't make the list, but Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell is a really incredibly good book some of which takes place in the post-apocalypse. Very highly recommended.

I really wish that you would pick books that have been out a bit longer - I'm sure my library won't have Witch and I can't get it by ILL until it has been in circulation for 6 months.

Agree with owlfan; the first is out only in hardcover and the second hasn't been published (on paper) yet. Hope to catch up with you later, though.

I'm with roundbelly (above). I read Canticle for Leibowitz a couple of months ago, on the recommendations of this same list. It is very good. I have not been much impressed with my tiny contact with Kunstler's work, but I'll try it. Thanks.

Not sure I can stomach reading a Kunstler novel. I think I'll just grow out a porn star mustache instead.

Crunchy: LOL!!

I'm not trying to defend Kunstler, but from what little I've read of his fiction, the writing style and tone therein are completely different from that of the weekly screeds he puts out on Clusterf**k Nation. You might be surprised.

Post-apocalyptic novel club is supposed to be fun, if you don't enjoy them, don't read them. Don't want goats? Don't get goats. Don't like broccoli? Grow carrots. Seriously, folks, it ain't mandatory!

We will do some books that have been out a *long* time later on - in this case, I have to read _Witch of Hebron_ whether I like it or not (since Kunstler is already using obscenities with my name because of what I wrote about the last one ;-)), so y'all have to suffer. As for Cobb's book, I think a lot of you will want to read it - the reason to read this book, besides the fact that its interesting in its own right, is that it is the book you can give your MIL and your sister who don't believe in peak oil.

Sharon

owlfan, have you checked your library? I just reserved one of two copies from mine, and it isn't a library that normally has obscure titles, so you might be pleasantly surprised.

I should know better than to eat at my computer. Especially during this blog. I *almost* snorted milk out my nose. No, you didn't say anything especially funny, it's that I *just* finished Hebron! Like an hour ago. So apparently I'm right on schedule!

I found it to be an interesting picture of several aspects of the potential future. The descriptions of what people ate were particularly enticing and encouraging. (Not that everyone ate as well as others, but the possibilities were delightfully explored.) I think the book stands well enough on its own, although there are a few themes implying Kunstler seems to be setting up for a long series...

I'll save my other thoughts for the actual discussion.

Don - I'll probably cave in and read it. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to make fun of his 'stache.

Yea, sorry, my small library has World Made by Hand, but I have to go to the capital to find a library with Witch of Habron, and the waiting list is so long I won't get the book before it's actually talked about. :-)

And, I hate to say it, but where does one buy e-books? I went to the Prelude website, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of where one can obtain a copy. (Is copy the right word? Access? Download?)

A little help please?

Oh poop, I was really looking forward to this. I don't want to read another Kunstler book, and e-books are not an option for me. (We have a very basic internet package, with really low upload/download limits. If I exceed these I get charged roughly a bazillion dollars per mb.) In the meantime I'll keep working through all of the excellent suggestions from before, and talking to my hubby about them while he watches fishing shows. I can tell he really enjoys this as he tends to appear very very deep in thought. :)

There were two copies of The Witch of Hebron left in the Columbus library system, so I reserved one of them. I should be getting it in about two days, so I'll be ready to start soon. Meanwhile, I thought I'd start World Made by Hand again. I'm already up to the place where I stopped before.

I was surprised to find my local library had copies of _Hebron_ too, so I have requested a copy. For those who have a local library that doesn't have it, ask your librarian if they have Interlibrary Loan! Many libraries have this service. You can request books not available in your local system, and they in turn request it from libraries in other cities and states. usually at no (or very low) cost to you. There may be restrictions on new books, but it is worth a shot for those that are interested!

I just checked my library website - my entire state (GA) (or at least the majority that I can access with inter-library loan) has 10 copies of Hebron and none are in my county or any of the nearby surrounding counties. I know from talking to my librarians that the book won't go out for loan to other counties until it has been in their area for 6 months. In the meantime, I've just gotten a copy of World Made by Hand and I'll be reading it.

Kunstler's books sell a lot of copies - maybe ask around and see if you can borrow one? If not, once I'm done reading mine, I can circulate it around my mail to a few people.

Prelude isn't out yet - it will be shortly from Amazon and direct from the website. Kurt Cobb has kindly offered some paper copies that can be circulated by mail to allow people who can't buy the book to read it, and also it is available to libraries, so you can ask your local library to purchase it.

Honestly, while I don't really care much about giving Jim Kunstler money, the reason I'm putting Prelude here is because it *is* new. Cobb has done the PO community a service, writing the story in fiction form, for people who won't read it any other way. I want it to get some publicity. I apologize if the the first two choices are hard to access for some people, and I'll do what I can to make them more accessible, but in the second case, the major issue is that publicity is most valuable to his book when it comes out. And if there's a market for peak oil fiction, people will publish more of them and the story will reach more folks.

Sharon

Bookins(.com) has an "uncorrected proof" of Witch of Hebron available, if that helps anyone. You get enough points when you join to get this book right away.

I'm happy to announce that Kurt Cobb's new book "Prelude" is now available at Amazon.com as of last Friday. I was privileged to read the first dozen or so pages of his personal proof copy last week and it has me hooked already!

Bringing Back the Post-Apocalyptic Novel Reading Club

sastyk — Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:02:11 +0000

Bringing Back the Post-Apocalyptic Novel Reading Club

On ye olde blogge, in 2008, I ran a post-apocalyptic novel reading club for about six months. Why, you ask? Well, why not? When you deal with real doom, mocking (or praising on the rare occasions when it is good) fictive doom is theraputic - and fun. All of us, I suspect, have a secret stash of these books - so why not come out and talk about them here? I've had tons of requests to bring it back. Well, requests granted - it is coming back! I'm shooting for the first read to be ready at the beginning of October - meanwhile, does anyone have any suggestions for a first book? I'm pretty open, although I have a couple of ideas of my own. I'd love to hear suggestions - old favorites or new ones are all good!

Sharon

sastyk Fri, 08/20/2010 - 10:02

Tags

post-apocalyptic novel reading club

post-apocalyptic novel

I'm glad you are bringing this back. I didn't get here in time to join last time so I'm looking forward to this. No suggestions but I'm ready for anything :)

How about a post-nuclear apocalypse book: Pat Frank's Alas Babylon? I read it back in high school.

On The Beach by Nevil Shute. Or a Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter Miller. Those two are my favorites.

My favorite is "Ridley Walker," by Russell Hoban, but I look forward to reading something new.

Of course "The Stand" by Stephen King. Or an oldie/goodie: Lucifer's Hammer by Larry Niven.

Another oldie/goodie - Parable of The Sower, Octavia Butler !

I don't know what was covered in the previous round in 2008, but here are a few sitting on my shelves (mostly a couple of decades old).

Lucifer's Hammer (Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle)
Footfall (Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle)
The Last Canadian / Death Wind (William C. Heine)
The Killing Star (Charles Pellegrino & George Zebrowski)

There's a few more, I just can't think of them right now.

I've always wanted to read A Canticle For Leibowitz. Maybe a reading club will provide enough additional motivation to help me actually do it.

"Ridley Walker" is fantastic. The language alone makes it worth the read.
Trubba Not.

I'm in. Lots of good suggestions. How about The Year of the Flood by Margaret Atwood?

I seem to drink post-apocalyptic lit like water. I just finished Margaret Atwood's *Oryx & Crake* and *The Year of the Flood*. Both were hugely entertaining.
Earlier this summer I read *The Passage* by Justin Cronin, I enjoyed it a lot too.

The YA genre has a bunch of wonderful post-apocalyptic stories. I especially loved these:
*The Hunger Games* & *Catching Fire* the new one will be out in a few days.
*Birthmarked*
*Ship Breaker*

My very favorite novel from this genre is *Into The Forest* by Jean Hegland
Looking forward to your first pick.
I loved it last time when S.M. Stirling chimed in on our discussion!

~traci
vancouver, wa

How about "One Second After " by William R. Forstchen?

Electromagnetic pulse instantly disables almost every electrical device in the U.S. Airplanes, most cars, cellphones, refrigeratorsâall are fried and the country plunges into literal and metaphoric darkness. Long-term effects of the disaster- starvation, disease and roving gangs of barbarians.

I've been wanting to read Super Sad True Love Story, the book with the dumb name:

"Shteyngart's anti-hero, Lenny Abramov, is not so far from Roth's Portnoy in "Portnoy's Complaint", really, but his Manhattan of the near-future is a long, long way from mid-twentieth century Newark. Lenny, son of Russian Jewish immigrants, is one of the last actual readers (as opposed to "scanners") of books (as opposed to "texts") in New York.

Everyone wears an "Ã¤ppÃ¤rÃ¤t" a miniaturized super-smart cell-phone-cum-computer that automatically scans the net-worth, sexual-status and cholesterol level of passers-by, and also relays one's own personal data and whereabouts to the ARA ("American Restoration Authority"), the puppet debtor government which is a vassal to the Chinese and Norwegian super powers...."

I second, "One Second After".

One Second After should be mandatory reading for everyone.

World Made by Hand - James Kunstler
Ecotopia - Ernst Callenbach (not post-apoc, but a nice alternative future!)

The Fifth Sacred Thing by Starhawk.

The Death of Grass was the first post-apocalyptic novel I read. Oldie but goldie.

it is fascinating to put World Made BY Hand into Amazon and see what else people have bought. a goodly combination of survival guides and post-apoc novels!

"A Canticle for St Leibowitz" is to me the essential post-apocalyptic story. Read it first at High School in the early 1960's. At about the same time as another - AC Clark's "The City And The Stars". And Earth gets destroyed in "Hitchiker's Guide" - that's pretty apocalyptic I'd say.

And what about some movies? From the kitschy "Logan's Run" and "Planet of the Apes" on through "A Boy And His Dog", "Mad Max", "Zardoz". And one that you have to see but most likely have never heard of - :"The Bedsitting Room" (not available on DVD or VHS, but once every few years Showtime airs it). Or for really silly, "Idiocracy", a social rather than nuclear apocalypse.

Wow, how great is this! I've always been a huge post-apocalyptic novel fan, but all I've ever gotten is funny looks whenever I've admitted to it. Many of the titles already posted are among my favorites, but I have a few more to add:

"The Postman" by David Brin - far better than Costner's awful film version.

"The Wind From Nowhere" by JG Ballard - more of an apocalyptic book, but still a good read.

William Tenn's "Of Men and Monsters" - is it really post-apocalyptic if more people are alive after the apocalypse than before?

The Earth Abides, (forgot author) pub. about 1950 but still a great read, Day of the Triffids by John Wyndham. He wrote several other PA novels, DOTT still reigns supreme in my books.
Canticle for Leibowitz was excellent as well.

This is awesome! I second The Stand (the uncut version, of course) and how about The Road by Cormac McCarthy.

The Road is very grim (it might also be good but I couldn't stand reading it). A Canticle for Leibowitz is excellent. Ridley Walker is superb.

"Slapstick" and "Galapagos" by Kurt Vonnegut if you are in the mood for some absurdism with your apocalypse...

Some of these have been mentioned already, but they're so good that I'll second them.
Lucifer's Hammer, by Jerry Pournelle
Into the Forest, by Jean Hegland (I just found that there's a sequel: Windfalls: a novel)
Dies the Fire, by S.M. Stirling
YA trilogy (in which an asteroid hits the moon, cracks it in half, and moves its orbit closer to Earth, with catastrophic results to climate and coastlines): Life as We Knew It; The Dead and the Gone; This World We Live In, by Susan Beth Pfeffer

The Road by Cormac McCarthy - the book and the movie were both unsettling, disturbing, and intense. The good and the evil of human nature set in black and white imagery is pretty much what an apocalyptic world could look like.
Kunstler also has a teaser from is new book:
http://kunstler.com/blog/2010/08/vacation-special----excerpt-from-the-w…

I forgot Will Self's The Book of Dave. Though maybe it's post-global warming rather than post-apocalypse.

Wolf and Iron by Gordon R Dickson

Ursula K. LeGuin's "Always Coming Home" is not PA per se, but it is set in a world that is post-modern civilization. It is an interesting exploration of an anarchist society that, it seems, has deliberately forsworn the wonders of global capitalism.

Second, or third, or whatever, to "Oryx and Crake," and "Parable of the Sower" (as well as its follow-up, "Parable of the Talents"). And "The Road."

"The Chrysalids" by John Wyndham.

I also second "The Book of Dave" and look forward to trying some other suggestions.

I'm definately interested in doing this -- just no Margaret Atwood please. I'm never in the mood for femi-nazis.

Canticle for Leibowitz is awesome. I also really liked The Postman. Snow Crash rocks my socks and I'd like to read Anathem which is also by Neil Stephenson. I've read Alas Babylon as well... and probably others. It seems like I'm always reading post apocalyptic fic. Oh, and I really liked the Uglies/Pretties/Specials/Extras series (which is classified as young adult). I second the nomination for Super Sad True Love Story. Heard that interview on Fresh Air the other day and it sounds good.

vonnegut's cat's cradle, although it's really "mid/oncoming" apocalypse.

peter straub's a short guide to the city, this one is a short story, and can be found in american gothic tales (edited by Joyce Carol Oates)., again, not a true post-apocalyptic tale, as it could describe an anonymous current city, but has the very creepy air of "a future unknown"....

Another vote for "Lucifer's Hammer" and "The Postman".

I've been enjoying S.M Sterling's Emberverse series. "Dies the Fire" being the first book. It's more science-fantasy because the unexplained cause of the collapse is unbelievable. But that said it's got all the good stuff you want out of post-apocalyptic fiction.

I also enjoyed "Emergence" by David R. Palmer. Again,it has fantasy aspects that some might find annoying. It also has a very marked writing style that could put folks off.

Gene Wolfe's "Book of the New Sun" series is some of the finest science fiction ever written (although it's almost science fantasy in how heavily it leans on Clarke's First Law). It's arguably post-apocalyptic, but we're talking about deep, deep time, not immediate aftermath.

It's gorgeously, intricately written, but without ever waxing too poetic. The narration is actually quite matter-of-fact (and deliciously unreliable), and the whole series is extremely cerebral. If you've never read any Gene Wolfe, you're in for a challenge, and a treat.

Anyway, I can't recommend it highly enough. Start with Shadow of the Torturer and you won't be able to resist reading the rest.

I second Earth Abides as a great one to start with. Author George Stewart, I believe.

I hated The Road, won't read it again nor see the movie. I may be a Doomer but I'm not a Gloomer!

I'd like to suggest, not to start but for later, Kim Stanley Robinson's "Science in the Capital" trilogy: "Forty Days of Rain," "Fifty Degrees Below," and "Sixty Days and Counting." It's a global warming theme and captivatingly written!

Sue

"A Place Called Attar" by John D. Belanger. The end comes by ice age, as fits the nature of the main character, a glacial drumlin. At the time it was written, global warming was less well known. An excellent overview of the way things fall apart in an industrial civilization though.

Glenn

I'll suggest The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi. It's post-global warming (although climate change is ongoing), post-peak oil, and, especially post-GMO "revolution". And for once in post-apocalyptic fiction, it's not set in the U.S., Britain, or any other (over) developed nation, but it Thailand. The time is around a hundred years from now and the Thai people struggle in the mouldering ruins of "the Expansion" and the subsequent "Contraction" against the ruthless and predatory "calorie companies" and their own corrupt leaders.

It won the Nebula award a few months ago and is short-listed for the Hugo award to be presented in September.

The Bone House - Luanne Armstrong

She is quite the writer and this is one of her best.

Kim Stanley Robinson's "The Wild Shore" is worth consideration as well. An interesting vision of a post nuclear war southern California.

I'd second the Windup Girl on the grounds that I just bought it! I think it is quite interesting that Alas Babylon! Lucifer's Hammer and Day of the Triffids (classified as cosy catastrophes) all end with a happy, back on the road to progress theme, or at least so I remember it. It's a good while since I read any of them and I would be quite happy to revisit them. DOTT has one of the scariest beginnings to a book and a picture of an empty slowly decaying London that is as real in my mind as the crowded city I occasionally visit. On a John Wyndham theme The Kraken Wakes is also good, set in a world where alien sea creatures are taking over the world and melting the ice-caps. Who would have thought, in the 50s, that we wouldn't need aliens to destroy our lovely world?

I'm really pleased to see Ridley Walker mentioned here as I must admit I didn't think it was well known at all.

I love that book, even in spite of the fact that it was a text I had to read at school. The language is tough to master at first but certainly has the effect of drawing you further into the world Hoban creates. It is also set in a post apocalyptic version of Kent, where I grew up.

I'm afraid Will Self's 'Book of Dave', whilst being similar to Ridley Walker in some ways, I found to be one of the few books too depressing for me to persist with (and I like depressing)!

How about 'The Day of The Triffids'? an oldie-but-goodie.

Oh, Sharon, how wonderful! I had given up on tha PA book club, thinking you are now just too busy. I am thrilled. I loved it. Don't even know why, but it is such fun. Thank you !

I'd put in another vote for Stewart's Earth Abides or Starhawk's Fifth Sacred Thing. I don't think anyone's mentioned Brave New World, but maybe everyone's read enough of that in high school already.

Stand on Zanzibar, by John Brunner. Another oldie, but prescient, from the days when overpopulation was a concern. Although it's not post-, but mid-apocalyptic...still, a good read.

Most of my favorites have already been listed,
Lucifer's Hammer, Niven and Pournelle
Emergence, Palmer
Wolf and Iron, Dickson
Postman, Brin

I just re-read Maureen F. McHugh's China Mountain Zhang, though that is about an economic collapse (and China buys/reposesses the US). Dalmas' The General's President is another about economic collapse.

Then there is the fluff, post-genetic collapse, A Brother's Price, by Wen Spencer. This adventure/romance is almost too much fun, though, to be post-apocalyptic.

I'm not sure if this counts as post-apocalyptic exactly, but "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" is fun with zombies by Jane Austen and Seth Grahame-Smith. And you can't have an apocalypse without zombies ; )

World War Z by Max Brooks is post-apocalyptic, and still deals with zombies. I know, zombies aren't completely necessary for an apocalypse, but these are the first two books that came to mind.

This club sounds like it could be interesting reading.

Good News by Edward Abbey, and another vote for Earth Abides, by George Stewart. Stephen King ripped the latter off big time.

I am looking forward to this, I enjoyed many of the books people have suggested and would reread any of them except The Road which was a horribly boring slog.

I second "Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart (1950)

This sounds great! I've also read several of these, mostly the older ones (Canticle for Leibowitz, Alas Babylon, On the Beach, etc.) and would like to read something I haven't already read. I don't want to read anything that ends on a depressed note - I can do that myself! - neither would like something that has a falsely happy ending. I'm really looking forward to this. Thanks!

I haven't seen Pesthouse by Jim Crace mentioned. I wouldn't mind reading it again.

There are some great books on this list - Canticle for Liebowitz, Riddley Walker, Alas Babylon,Hunger Games, Life As We Knew It, etc.

Not mentioned yet: Far North, by Marcel Theroux. On the frontier of a failed state, lonely Makepeace patrols a city's ruins. Into this cold land comes a refugee from the vast emptiness of forest. Inspired to find what else remains of civilization, Makepeace takes to the road, to find stockaded villages and hidden work camps laboring to harness the little-understood technologies of a vanished civilization.

Your last round got me reading the SM Stirling books - and wow, did I love them! We got them on Audio from Audible and the narrators were fabulous too.
Recommendations here have inspired me to pick up the Canticle for Leibowitz - it's been on my 'that looks interesting' list for a long time, I'm gonna go for it. :)
I just recently finished Anathem - it is fascinating particularly if you have a decent background in or solid interest in a fairly broad range of scientific things (physics, mathematics, biology) combined with a penchant for philosophy. It wasn't an easy read, but it was worth every minute.
I also really enjoyed Parable of the Sower, recommended here as well.

Octavia Butler's Parable of the Talents and Parable of the Sower. MacArthur "genius" fellowship award winner.. great tales of 2025 dystopian future

Summer of the Apocalypse by James Van Pelt.

It's both an apocalyptic story and a post-apocalyptic one as well. A teenager goes through it and the old man he turns into remembers. Shades of Earth Abides, The Stand and The Scarlet Plague.

For a slightly different look at apocalypse I'd suggest Stephen Baxter's Flood which is concerned with the issue of sea level change. While it starts off in the UK the setting later moves to the US and South America.

I also enjoyed Ben Elton's Stark which is largely set in Australia. While it was published in 1989, when I read it in 2008 I found it remarkably insightful.

My Suggestions-

Into the Forest by Jean Hegland

The Fifth Sacred Thing by Starhawk

One Second After by William Forstchen

Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler

Life As We Knew It , The Dead & The Gone and This World We Live In by Susan Beth Pfeffer

Thank you for bringing this back, Sharon!
I "ditto" Into the Forest by Jean Hegland, I read it after someone suggested it for the ye olde club and it wasn't picked.
I also think that "Anathem" pairs very nicely with "Canticle" -- and it's on the remainder tables these days. But "Anathem" is a bit of a slog.
I'd pick Atwood's Year of the Flood over Oryx and Crake.
But even better, pick some books I haven't read yet.

I didn't think of Anathem right away, since its timeline is longer than a single apocalypse. A week or two ago it was on the "Former Bestsellers" table at Barnes and Noble, where the hardback was selling for $6.98. I guess it has experienced its own sort of apocalypse.

One of my favorite genres! My top choices are: Earth Abides for a great story about what happens in nature when a species becomes overpopulated, and how a society might re-form itself after a huge die-off.
One Second After, for a very grim-but-essential-to-understand picture of what could happen if a nuclear bomb were set off in the atmosphere, causing an EMP - which would disable all electronic devices permanently (unless they were hardened).
Alas Babylon, a disturbing story of what happens after a nuclear war.
Also, any of the books by J.M. Stirling (Dies the Fire, The Protectors War, etc.) and how about The Rift, by Walter Williams, about a massive earthquake in the American Midwest.

Not a novel, but a devastating short story by Connie Willis: The Last Winnebago.

"Who ever said the apocalypse was going to happen all at once?"

How about Straight To You by David Moody. It's not actually post-apocalyptic but it does concern an apocalypse. Kinda grim reading though since there's really no hope.
I have a lot of what's been mentioned sitting on the shelf waiting to be read. I'm ready to go :)

As is usual, I can't remember the name of a book I read years ago and have wanted to reread. I believe it was set in the Baltimore area and a new ice age had decended. Baltimore was the farest north humans could live and life there was very iffy. The main family had a retrofitted house that included a heated greenhouse room that they slept in during the coldest months.
Any one recgonize this?

"Lucifer's Hammer", more violence and social breakdown, and "Alas Babylon", more homesteading and making do, are perhaps the best of what is commonly available.

Here's another vote for a zombie apocalypse book. (I know you worry about that LOL) "In the Forest of Hands and Teeth" by Carrie Ryan is a young adult book, but I've been wanting to read it since it came out.

"...the post-apocalypse is defined more by constraints than freedoms. The book begins seven generations after the Return, an undead plague that has ended civilization as we know it. Of course, a zombie outbreak usually means shotguns and mall looting--the very essence of freedom. But more than a century on from the Return, the malls have already been looted, and shotguns are a distant memory. The novel's heroine, Mary, lives in a village surrounded by one last vestige of industrial technology: a chain-link fence, beyond which is a vast forest full of shambling, eternally ravenous undead--the forest of hands and teeth. No villager ever goes outside this fence, unless they want to die. (And given this bleak scenario, some do.)"

wow, people know their post-apocalyptic genre! i love a lot of the ones mentioned here already. with a canticle for leibowitz probably being the all-around best writing. totally amazing.

i second (third?) the vote for The Windup Girl, by Paolo Bacigalupi. great steampunk, post-sea-rise, post-oil setting. and in thailand!

also, margaret atwood's oryx and crake and the year of the flood are not specifically feminist books. have no fear. not that you should anyhow, but. :)

in the YA genre: the Big Empty series, by J.B. Stephens (i think there are 4 total now). so-so writing, but hey, it's YA.

and anything by kim stanley robinson.

and Jamestown, by Matthew Sharpe. post-collapse USA setting, really entertaining po-mo re-imagining of the pocahontas story... really great, funny voice.

also in the po-mo, hipster-lit genre: Liberation: Being the Adventures of the Slick Six After the Collapse of the United States of America by Brian Francis Slattery.

and "Engine Summer", by John Crowley. beautiful imagining of community life a few generations post-collapse.

and this may not count be in your local library, but you can get in on amazon, and it's one of those post-collapse stories that have stuck in my mind, for one reason or another: "Crossing the Blue: a post-petrol, post-America road trip", by Holly Jean Buck. i really enjoyed this one.

can't wait!

Wow! What a lot of feedback. My $0.02

World Made by Hand - James Kunstler

But, OTOH, I'd like to read one that doesn't off 95% of the population first.

Karen

Or how about David Graham's Down to a Sunless Sea?

How about historical apocolypse?

Not very practical but I am a fan of P&P&Zombies and S&S&SeaMonsters -- for some nineteenth century apocolypse with Jane Austen. Take that as a vote for zombies.

"The Last Winnebago" really stuck in my brain - I read it years ago. Connie Willis also wrote a good novel set in the middle ages plague years.

I vote for Oryx and Crake too.

Here are the ones we did last time - I probably won't repeat any on this go-round since there are so many good ones, although Lucifer's Hammer is so humorously awful I'm almost tempted to re-run that one just for the comic pleasure of writing about it.

Done last time: Earth Abides, Muir's Poem "The Horses," Dies the Fire (with Stirling chiming in!), _The Gate to Women's Country_, _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ (which is really an apocalypse-forestalled book), _Life as We Knew It_, _Lucifer's Hammer_ and Eliot's "The Wasteland" (ok, two of these are poems, but I'm a poetry geek).

Here was the proposed reading list, which was far too ambitious for most people, but fun: http://sharonastyk.com/2008/08/17/final-post-apocalyptic-reading-list-a…

I think what I'm going to do this time is alternate between books I pick and ones that others vote on, with no advance planning ;-).

I was thinking of starting with _One Second After_ because of the attention it has gotten recently, but I'm ambivalent about choosing a book with a preface by Newt Gingerich. Is it really worth it?

Sharon

Great idea - I agree with many of the other suggestions. For something a bit different, I'd suggest Raymond Briggs' When the Wind Blows - a graphic novel and not so much post-apocalyptic as during-apocalyptic, but a really moving work. I wonder if it's still in print?

I really liked the first sequel to Life As We Knew It - but i have to suggest Pat Murphy's The City, Not Long After.

It's post-post-apocalypse, the main character is one of the kids who doesn't even remember the Before, plus it has the benefit of being beautiful and way shorter than most of the books mentioned.

I Second The City: Not Long Afer by Pat Murphy and suggest Earthling by Tony Daniel

Yes, Oryx and Crake and the Year of the Flood are excellent, disturbing, and entertaining.

I had forgotten about Neil Gaiman's Good Omens. Pure fun!

Regarding One Second After,and the preface by Newt Gingrich - from what I remember, after listening to this book as an Audible download - the preface seemed to reinforce the idea that we need to take the possibility of an EMP seriously, and not shrug it off, and that our society's basic electrical infrastructure should be "hardened" to protect it. He is in favor of a strong military and there is a somewhat military slant to the book (the ex-military guys are the ones who know how to get things organized in the town, etc.). What I liked, or found valuable, about this book is that it gives a clear picture of what could happen instantly, and is a strong incentive to prepare now. It's more immediate than the standard Peak Oil decline scenario. One Second After is one book that kept me awake at night, one I haven't forgotten, and one that keeps me aware of how prepared I am for a sudden disaster. Definitely worth the time to read or listen to. It will have you looking at where and how you live in a different way.

On a slightly different note...

After reading Greer's "Long Descent", I went back and read Asimov's "Foundation" series. Asimov was all about the slow disintegration of the empire, and the crux of the series was shortening the 'dark ages' type period. I'm not sure I'd necessarily recommend it since it is long (5 books?) and not all that relevant, but there were some really good passages - discussing a machine, and the fact that no one knew how it had been made, or how to replace it should it actually break. But the job of *maintaining* it had become an inherited trade. I think that's exactly what we're going to see more of in our own future.

The White Plague - Frank Herbert.

Martha:

..we need to take the possibility of an EMP seriously..

The first cruise missiles into Baghdad in '03 carried EMP devices, which effectively crippled Iraqi military communications. They are really simple devices that utilize an explosive charge to drive a magnet thru a coil of copper wire, generating an electromagnetic pulse. A modest sized EMP device could be constructed in a person's garage. It's possible to "harden" a facility such as a military installation against an EM pulse but not practical to shield an entire electricity distribution grid against such a pulse. Not to worry, tho, as it would take an EMP device the size of the Starship Enterprise, utilizing a nuclear explosive charge, being detonated in orbit to cripple a sizable portion of the national Grid. I've always thought that bin Laden could have gotten his point across much more effectively, with much greater economic damage yet less loss of life, had he detonated such a device over lower Manhattan instead of sending planes crashing into buildings.

Good lord. I just put all these suggestions into a spreadsheet for my own records. 65 (unique) suggestions here (so far!), in addition to the 31 items on the reading list from ye olde blogge.

Now how am I supposed to get any actual PREPARATION done?! [grin]

Well Sharon, you pulled me out of the woodwork for this one!

I'd put a vote in for The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi since it is an interpretation of the future right in line with your regular discussions here. And for many of the reasons the previous poster noted.

Also, don't know where you are on selecting short fiction, but for other readers who might like to find it on their own, I liked this short story by Carrie Vaughn set in a post-peak adapted world. "Amaryllis" http://www.lightspeedmagazine.com/fiction/amaryllis/

Just wanted to point out that if you're trying to find "The Last Winnebago" by Connie Willis, the actual title is "The Last of the Winnebagos" and it's included in her book of short stories called "Impossible Things" which is available used from Amazon for $0.01 (plus $3.99 shipping).

About an EMP, I found this reassuring post:
Some electrical equipment is innately EMP-resistant. This includes
large electric motors, vacuum tube equipment, electrical generators, trans-
formers, relays, and the like. These might even survive a massive surge of EMP
and would likely to survive if a few of the above precautions were taking in
their design and deployment.

He goes on to discuss other, more vulnerable, equipment and how to protect it. (This information sounds plausible, but I'm no judge of such things.)
http://www.whenshtf.com/showthread.php?1373-EMP-Protection

It sounds like Gingrich takes the EMP threat seriously. In the forward of _One Second After_, he says:
...I see this book as a terrifying "future history" that might come true. Such books have a significant tradition in their own right. H. G. Wells wrote frightfully accurate prophecies of what history now calls World Wars I and II. Two of the great classics of the Cold War, _Alas, Babylon_ and the movie Testament, gave us a profoundly moving glimpse of what would happen to ordinary citizens if war between us and the Soviets was ever unleashed....

Connie Willis' plague novel is Doomsday Book.

I started reading "One Second After" last year and actually abandoned it a chapter or so in -- and I NEVER do that! It just wasn't doing anything for me. I think it was the political slant of the author, although I've read plenty else that is clearly coming from a right-side perspective or is too military-oriented for my taste and yet it didn't bother me a bit in terms of enjoying the story and finding it useful. So, hard to say, but "One Second After" is "iffy" to me for some reason.

Since you asked, Sharon... I think One Second After is a bit over the top (especially in terms of time frames) but boy, does it ever make you think! The devil is in the details, and this particular scenario does make you think about all the little details. The military stuff is a bit irritating, but I find that is a common theme in American stories of this type, and I can overlook it if the story's good. :)

Several of my day to day practices were rethought after reading it (well, I listened to it on audio - I have a terribly long commute) - therefore it gets my vote for the "really makes you think" category.

Although it may be difficult to come by, the following book is worth the effort: Arno Schmidt, Black Mirrors

http://www.amazon.com/Nobodaddys-Children-Collected-Fiction-1949-1964/p…

Try "This is the way the world ends" by James Morrow... the subject is a touch dated, but its a good black comedy take on the aftermath of nuclear war.

Lots of good suggestions - let me add Julian Comstock, by Robert Charles Wilson which is a 2010 Hugo nominee, and second The Chrysalids and Earth Abides. Oldies but goodies.

#65 Evey -- you may be thinking of Colleen McCullough's A Creed for the Third Millenium: "Tomorrow's America is a cold and ravaged place, a nation devastated by despair and enduring winter. In a small New England city, senior government official Dr. Judith Carriol finds the man she has been seeking: a deliverer of hope in a hopeless time who can revive the dreams of a shattered people; a magnetic, compassionate idealist whom Judith can mold, manipulate and carry to undreamed-of heights; a healer who must ultimately face damnation through the destructive power of love."

An unsubtle retelling of the Jesus story; Judith=Judas, Joshua Christian = Jesus Christ, etc.

Consider "The Tripods" series by John Christopher. I loved them as a kid. A synopsis from Wikipedia sez:

The story of The Tripods is post-apocalyptic. Humanity has been conquered and enslaved by "the tripods", unseen alien entities who travel about in gigantic three-legged walking machines (the unsophisticated humans believe the walking machines themselves to be their living overlords). Human society is largely pastoral, with few habitations larger than villages, and what little industry exists is conducted under the watchful presence of the tripods. Lifestyle is reminiscent of the Middle Ages, but artifacts from later ages are still used, giving individuals and homes an anachronistic appearance.

Humans are controlled from the age of 14 by implants called "caps", which suppress curiosity and creativity and leave the recipient placid and docile, incapable of dissent. The caps cause them to adore the tripods as their saviours. Some people, whose minds are broken (instead of successfully being controlled) under the pressure of the cap's hypnotic power become vagrants, who wander the countryside shouting nonsense."

I am so completely entertained by how many comments you've gotten! I adore this stuff too, I would second Octavia Butler, Starhawk, and I'm just working my way through The Book of the Long Sun by Gene Wolfe. It's really quite good. Looks like I have my reading cut out for me!

Oryx & Crake by Margaret Atwood - spooky and uncomfortably pointed, and often disconcertingly funny.

My vote is for Oryx & Crake and The Year of the Flood by Margaret Atwood. Looking forward to having the book club back!

Maybe Raven's Manzanita, by Cora Stryker? I only heard her give a reading of it, but it seemed right up your alley. It doesn't seem to exist on the internet, but maybe I'm not searching correctly.

Oh wow, what a great list. I vote for Oryx and Crake, since I just downloaded onto my reader, and I'm going on vacation.

I dont think I saw these recommended:

The Family Tree by Sheri S. Tepper

JG Ballard The Drowned World, The Wind from Nowhere, and The Voices of Time, my cc a novelette in a book of short stories by the same name. That man knew apocalypse.

Gordon R. Dickson's "Wolf and Iron" - post apocalyptic, yet strangely hopeful.

Sheri. S. Teppers's "Gate to Women's Country" - as a feminist homeschooling mother of 3 boys I found this book fascinating and disturbing.

another vote for atwood's oryx and crake and the year of the flood. the stand had some possibilities. my fave so far is the trilogy 40 days of rain, 50 degrees below, and 60 days and counting. all are set in washington dc and feature a new president,a lot of ordinary people, and a selection of folks in between,all trying to cope with a permanently changed landscape.

Having read _Lucifer's Hammer_ and _Footfall_ recently via interlibrary loan (and thinking that no one knew they existed), I am surprised at how many people have voted for these! And then, Googling the Orion program (nuclear bombs for propulsion) and finding out that this propulsion technology could send us to the stars!

I second the following:
Lucifer's Hammer - Niven and Pournelle
Footfall - Niven and Pournelle
Alas, Babylon Frank Herbert
The Stand - Stephen King

For additional consideration:
The Time Machine - H.G. Wells
War of the Worlds - H.G. Wells

And a little non-fiction:
The Last Train from Hiroshima - Charles Pellegrino

Eric

I saw the John Christopher recommendation above and it reminded me of 'Death of Grass', surely the most terrifying TEOTWAWKI novel other than nuclear or zombies. From Wikipedia 'A viral strain has attacked rice crops in East Asia causing massive famine; soon a mutation appears which infects the staple crops of West Asia and Europe such as wheat and barley, threatening a famine engulfing the whole of the Old World, while Australasia and the Americas attempt to impose rigorous quarantine to exclude the virus.' It is rather dated in writing style but excellent in apocalyptic content. In the US it was called 'No Blade of Grass'. When you think of what percentage of our calories we get from grasses of various types you can see why it's scary.

The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi deals with a post-Peak Oil and post (or ongoing) climate change world. Very interesting dystopian debut novel.

One very well-written book with a post-apocalyptic element is Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell (for British readers, that's not the comedian of Mitchell and Webb fame!). It consists of six nested stories in chronological order, which culminate in a very poignant description of the fragmentation and slow decline of human civilisation after a nuclear war - before closing each of the earlier stories in reverse order, forcing you to re-evaluate the dramas and achievements of the earlier stories' characters in the the light of your new knowledge of the future. A strange and gripping book.

Tinker's Plague by Stephen B. Pearl, www.stephenpearl.com.

Tinker' Plague is a good, new, post-apocalyptic, science fiction, environmetal, medical and political thriller. It has real world settings and the first chapter is available to read on his website. The book is well researched and fast paced. I really enjoyed it.

I published my first post-apocalyptic novel TWO JOURNEYS in 2009.
Alan, the sole survivor of a pandemic, finds himselfstranded in Tokyo. He decides to do the impossible: travel home to Berlin to find out whether his family has survived. The Journey takes him across China, Mongolia and Siberia; 10.000 miles of adventure.
TWO JOURNEYS. Author: Clemens P. Suter, ISBN 143-9-250-138. It is available at most internet stores, also as eBook at Smashwords .com. I am currently working on the sequel.

Hi folks, you may want to check out my novel TWO JOURNEYS, a post-apocalyptic, end-of-time adventure and dystopia story set in the nearby future. http://2journeys.blogspot.com/