Jason Chaffetz

Antivaxers marched on Washington last week. It was less than impressive.

oracknows — Tue, 04 Apr 2017 06:30:29 +0000

Antivaxers marched on Washington last week. It was less than impressive.

Last week, I took note of something that antivaxers hadn't done in nine years, specifically a "march on Washington." Back in 2008, Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey led a rag tag rogues' gallery of antivaccine activists on a march and rally that they called "Green Our Vaccines." The name of the rally, of course, derived from a common trope beloved of antivaccine activists that I like to refer to as the "toxin gambit." It's basically a Food Babe-like fear of those "evil chemicals" writ large in a claim that vaccines are packed full of horrific chemicals that are Making Our Babies Autistic—and/or making them asthmatic, diabetic, or even dying of sudden infant death syndrome. It's a profoundly scientifically ignorant gambit in that the dose makes the poison and the amount of the various scary-sounding chemicals to which antivaxers like to point in vaccines is tiny and safe. For instance, antivaxers love to point to formaldehyde as one of those horrific toxins, and it's true. There are tiny amounts of formaldehyde in some vaccines left over from the process of inactivating the virus. However, the human body makes formaldehyde as a normal byproduct of metabolism in amounts that far surpass that contained in any vaccine.

Nine years later, the rally is called Revolution for Truth, and the "march" and "rally" (if you can call it that) took place on Friday. I thought about ignoring it completely after my one post, but since the antivaccine movement is one of my main topics, I find it hard to let things go without one last post on this rally. Part of the reason is that the rally surprised me. No, it wasn't the content of the speeches and signs that surprised me. Much of it was very similar to what occurred in 2008, although the cast of characters was largely different, with only Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and Barbara Loe Fisher having appeared at both events. Also in the post-SB 277 world (SB 277 is the new law in California that banned nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates), there was a lot more talk about "freedom," and in the world of our very own Antivaxer-in-Chief, President Donald Trump, the rhetoric was much darker and more dire than in 2008. None of this is what surprised me though. What did surprise me is that, if anything, the turnout for the Antivaccine March on Washington, 2017 edition, appeared to be much smaller than the Antivaccine March on Washington, 2008 edition. Don't get me wrong. The 2008 march attracted at most a few hundred people, but by comparison the photos of the 2017 March made the 2008 march look like the the crowd for Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech by comparison. (Antivaxers love to compare themselves to civil rights figures like Nelson Mandela or MLK.) I mean, take a look at the photos in this STAT News story, and you'll get an idea. Then compare to the photos from nine years ago, and you'll see what I mean.

Also, take a look at this photo on Twitter:

The anti-vax rally in front of the WH is very small. Chanting: "Awake, united, we're not going away." pic.twitter.com/6Q9H0tKqT7

— Rebecca Robbins (@RebeccaDRobbins) March 31, 2017

I honestly did not expect that. News coverage described the crowd as in the dozens, not the hundreds. Unfortunately, as I've been describing before when I lamented the politicization of vaccine mandates such that antivaxers are increasingly co-opting the rhetoric and messaging of the Tea Party to equate school vaccine mandates as tyranny and "vaccine choice" as "freedom," thus undermining what has until recently been a broad, bipartisan agreement about public health. For example:

For their lobbying day on Thursday, the activists had agreed to wear shades of the American flag: Red if they’d had a loved one injured by vaccines, and white if they were there in solidarity. (They were supposed to wear blue if a loved one had died from a vaccine injury, but STAT didn’t see anyone in the group wearing that color.)

Dressed in a red sweater and seated in a wheelchair, activist Marcella Piper-Terry teared up as she talked about her own chronic pain condition and her young adult daughter’s seizures and Asperger’s syndrome. She believes those injuries stem from vaccines.

What? They couldn't find a single antivaxer who thought that vaccines killed their child?

As tiny as the group was, we can't be complacent, as we can't say that they might not have an effect in the age of Donald Trump:

The day of demonstrations followed an intense lobbying push on Thursday. Activists held 80 meetings on Capitol Hill, many of them with staffers for members of Congress, according to Irene Pi, an organizer from Arizona. Among their goals: Push President Trump to establish a vaccine safety committee led by Kennedy.

“We’re being heard, and we’re going to enact change,” activist Jena Dalpez said.

Fortunately, that remains to be seen.

Because of the rain, unlike the rally in 2008, the speeches for Revolution for Truth took place indoors as the Washington Press Club, the very same place where a few weeks ago Robert F. Kennedy Jr. issued his ridiculous "thimerosal challenge." And what a bunch of speeches that this small band of antivaxers and a few reporters sat through, including Rebecca Robbins of STAT News:

“The biggest public health emergency today is not a few measles cases at Disneyland,"spkr says.There were 147 cases https://t.co/rYqFT3siTM pic.twitter.com/90PUJbforb

— Rebecca Robbins (@RebeccaDRobbins) March 31, 2017

Because of the length, I must admit that I didn't watch all the speeches—or even close. Even a cursory listen told me that it was a lot of the same ol', same ol'. For instance, Kent Heckenlively's speech in person was even worse than it was in print in all caps:

Yes, he referred to vaccines (or vaccine scientists; I'm not sure which) as "monstrous" evil and "unbelievable" wickedness. You get the idea. This is what most of the speeches were like.

For instance, here's ~~Scientology's~~ the Nation of Islam's Minister Tony Muhammad:

We've met Muhammad before, and his speech here isn't much different than the speech he gave a year and a half ago at a protest at the CDC. There are a lot of references to "satanic forces" and conspiracies, as you would expect. In fact, as I went back and looked at my old post about that CDC "protest," it occurred to me that "Revolution for Truth" reminded me, more than anything else, of that CDC protest more than the "Green Our Vaccines" rally.

One thing that I found strange about "Revolution for Truth" is that Andrew Wakefield wasn't there, even though a lot of people involved in his antivaccine propaganda film VAXXED were there. For instance, here's one of the parents featured in VAXXED, Sheila Lewis Ealey:

At least she's honest enough to state plainly that she is antivaccine and to assert that there is "no such thing as a save vaccine." (That kind of blows the cover off of, for instance, the organizers of the rally and RFK Jr.'s claims that they are not antivaccine," especially given how the crowd roared its approval to both lines. I've observed in past antivaccine conclaves that proclaiming oneself antivaccine and saying there's no such thing as a safe vaccine are two guaranteed applause lines.) Of course, she couldn't resist throwing in some Biblical stuff about how before vaccines "people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond." The dead silence after that statement showed that it was just a bit too batshit nuts, even for people who are so antivaccine that they are willing to travel from all over the country to Washington, DC to participate in a protest like this. That's saying something. After all, these are people who didn't bat an eye at Ealey's likening the Dredd Scott decision regarding slavery to the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, which created the Vaccine Court and the primary method of compensating people who suffer legitimate vaccine injury. To her, the NCVIA made children "property, not people," just as the Dredd Scott decision reinforced that slaves were property, to enthusiastic applause. When she then likened antivaxers to the "new abolitionists," the crowd went wild. Wow. Hyperbole much? Well done, Ms. Ealey! Fortunately, your bit about how before vaccines people lived 200 years made even the die-hard antivaxers who applauded your references to slavery go silent. She also revealed how parents arguing for "parental rights" with respect to vaccines think.

And here's Brian Hooker, the biochemical engineer turned incompetent epidemiologist and statistician who loves "simplicity" in statistics, with all the screwups that flow from that:

And, of course, here's the producer of VAXXED, Del Bigtree himself, whom we've met many times before:

Bigtree spends some time in the middle of his talk sarcastically beating up on a woman who didn't buy into the pseudoscience, quackery, and conspiracy mongering of the rally. Particularly hilarious is the part where he brags about how he doesn't care if there's a reporter doing a "hit piece" and that he'll stand in front of any camera "any day of the week" because "we're telling the truth." Um, no, Del. You might think you're telling the truth, but in reality you're spewing easily debunked lies, weaving them together into a tapestry of misinformation and pseudoscience that can be hard to penetrate if you don't—as I and some other skeptics do—have deep background knowledge of the specific threads of misinformation used to weave that tapestry. You are a propagandist, like Leni Reifenstahl, only much less talented. He then plays to the audience by referencing in contrast Paul Offit, who quite understandably got a bit pissed off at a VAXXED "reporter" who was bothering him in a hospital cafeteria while he was eating. It's a disingenuous comparison, of course. There's a difference between being a camera-hungry publicity hound of a crank desperate to speak to the press and being a real scientist tired of being hounded by antivaxers wherever he goes. Of course, disingenuous is how Bigtree rolls. It's how he's always rolled.

Of course, the main attraction had nothing to do with VAXXED. It was RFK, Jr., the environmentalist turned antivaccine crank since sometime around 2005. Specifically, he's a member of the mercury militia branch of the antivaccine movement, which is the branch that passionately believes that the mercury in the thimerosal that was used as a preservative in some childhood vaccines was responsible for the "autism epidemic." Never mind that thimerosal was removed from nearly all childhood vaccines in 2002 and in 2017, 15 years later, autism rates have not plummeted. Here he is again doing what he does best, blustering, deluding himself by claiming he's "not antivaccine," and spreading antivaccine pseudoscience hither, thither, and yon:

Notice one thing he didn't mention? Hopes were high among antivaxers that RFK Jr. would announce the "vaccine safety commission" that Donald Trump asked him to chair. (Or so he claimed; the transition team denied it that he had been offered anything, but that didn't stop him from running straight to the press to brag about how he would chair a Presidential commission on vaccine safety and/or autism.) One would think that, if it were confirmed that there would be such a commission, this "rally" would have been the perfect place to announce it.

Through it all, various antivaccine activists laid down a barrage of misinformation so thick and convoluted that Duane Gish himself would be proud. Examples were relayed on Twitter, such as:

#Revolution4Truth spkr Toni Bark: Vaccines work “if you don’t mind killing 5 kids for every 1 you save.” Fact check: No basis to those #s.

— Rebecca Robbins (@RebeccaDRobbins) March 31, 2017

Toni Bark's claim is, of course, utterly without a basis in scientific or clinical evidence. No surprise there.

There were also calls for measures that are clearly unethical and dangerous, such as this:

#Revolution4Truth spkr calls for "moratorium on all vaccinations" til safety investigated. Needless to say would never happen 4 good reason.

— Rebecca Robbins (@RebeccaDRobbins) March 31, 2017

All the while they deny that they're antivaccine while saying things like the statements above and Tweeting things like this:

Safe Vaccine Advocates Plan Protest in D.C., March 31 https://t.co/KaKh5GBX8H #Revolution4Truth #CDCTruth pic.twitter.com/JKFrP2Ky4i

— Ebony S. Muhammad (@EbonySafiyyah) March 21, 2017

Sure. You're not antivaccine. Ri-ight... Whatever you say...

In the end, as surprised as I was that this was the case, I was glad that the 2017 version of the antivaccine "march on Washington" fizzled even worse than the 2008 version. Of course, the 2008 version had actual celebrities. Even though Jenny McCarthy was at best a C-list celebrity then, Jim Carrey was still arguably A-list. They also did their march in June and were fortunate enough to have a beautiful sunny day. Even so, I would have thought that in the world of Donald Trump, antivaxers could have done better. I'm glad they didn't.

On the other hand, remember images like this:

@POTUS It's time to stop poisoning kids w/vaxx toxins #rfkcommission @jasoninthehouse is listening??#Vaxxed #MPVR #Revolution4Truth #MSleg pic.twitter.com/DvyXBkDBxB

— Kelly Sneed Hooker (@krae32012) April 3, 2017

That's a photo of antivaxers meeting with Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), Chair of the powerful House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, whom Del Bigtree lobbied last summer, complete with a copy of VAXXED for him. Whether Chaffetz is just playing the marchers or really is sympathetic to their viewpoint and demands, such as a demand for an "independent" vaccine safety commission, it's a bit worrisome that antivaxers appear to have such easy access to such a powerful Congressman, particularly in the context of their apparently having the ear of the President.

Stay frosty, my friends. The Revolution for Truth rally might have been an embarrassing bust, but the real threat advocates of science and public health have to look out for exists in photos like this and what they tell us.

oracknows Tue, 04/04/2017 - 02:30

Categories

Medicine

I imagine Jim Carrey thought his star power would attract people in the thousands. When only a few hundred kooks showed up he must have realized the pit of BSC he'd leaped headfirst into.

I'm sure his agent told him, "If you want to stay relevant in Hollywood you will not do something like this again."

News coverage described the crowd as in the dozens, not the hundreds.

Dozens, plural? Admittedly there may have been more to the crowd than shown in the photo attached to the first Rebecca Robbins tweet, but I count twelve people in that photo.

Regarding Chaffetz, given his track record, I am inclined to assume the worst about him. He's used his position to repeatedly investigate Hillary's e-mails and Benghazi, repeatedly finding in both cases that there is no there there, but has no interest in investigating the much more serious allegations against Donald Trump and other Republicans.

'Dozens' is right. Their Facebook page has some video shot outside the Press Club, and I'd say no more than 5 dozen idiots were there.

Every speaker would have time to talk to every protester one on one. They could have saved money on PA system rental.

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

I was particularly impressed by the crowds showing up from Scientology the KKK the NOI. They certainly had a great showing for this event.

Sheila Lewis Ealy laid down some truly irrational and demented stuff including allusions to racism, a lot of children's lives "snuffed out" by vaccines, and the obligatory 'religious piety' of the radicals who call for violence and death against their enemies:
"Because I'm going to tell you who I am. I AM ANTI-VACCINE! [Loud cheering and applause.]"
followed by this lunacy,
"Before the onset of vaccines people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond. [dead silence.]"

You could almost hear the jaws hit the floor with that last statement. Isn't everyone familiar with going to the cemetery and seeing numerous markers that say, "Here lies Jeremiah Blow Age 439"?
Stark. raving. mad.

Hopefully this is an indication that the AA community isn't falling for this scam, heavily directed toward them, in any numbers.
.
I also note that Babs Low Fisher, and others, were blending anti-vaccine with anti-fluoride and anti-GMO propaganda. It makes sense as this 'Revolution4Truth' march was organized around a blending of these internet anti-science, Luddite delusions. Perhaps this indicates the anti-vaccine scammers need new blood to prey upon as they've bled the anti-vaccinationists dry.

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

No, no, no, they have to be dilute – can't be standing all together like that. How to succuss them is anybody's guess.

Before the onset of vaccines people were living, and they were living up to 200 years of age and beyond.

Well, the Book of Genesis, which certain people regard as a reliable source, claims that someone named Methuselah lived to the age of 969. (Genesis 5:27, KJV: "And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.") And of course this was before the invention of vaccines.

In case it wasn't obvious, I am not among the people who believe that claim.

That one photo with all the umbrellas made the march look more like a lot of commuters who had just gotten off the commuter train than a demonstration.

I am glad they had good weather.

What? They couldn’t find a single antivaxer who thought that vaccines killed their child?

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons membership must have been busy that day. I am sure they have documented thousands</s hundreds scores a bunch of childhood deaths attributable to vaccines.

Great image! Best laugh I've had all week!

They tell us that the 'revolution won't be televised'
Suddenly , I can see why.

What if they gave a war revolution, and nobody came?

Well, I'm not surprised at all at the low turnout.

As best I can read the clues, I think "the anti-vax movement" has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists post Disneyland/SB277. In the Jenny McCarthy heyday, the way the AVs presented themselves and their case had some potential appeal expecting parents who were generally sensible folks. Even in the clusters in Orange and Sonoma counties, the vax uptake couldn't have dropped outbreak-threat low numbers without a good number of parents merely being 'vax-hesitant', falsely thinking avoiding the shots fell into "better safe than sorry" precaution. But look at that Greatest Lie image. The rhetoric is so out there, so polarizing, there's no broad appeal. Just about the only way a person can approach the frames pretty much all the AVs use now is 'all or nothing'. So you get the Sheila Lewis Ealey types, but that's it. Dozens of attendees, nothing but "the usual suspects" at the mic; only eight comments here so far and no trolls. If this ain't a dying topic, I don't know what is.

Which is not at all to say I think there's no threat, or that complacency is OK. I just don't think there's any real threat from the tattered remains of 'the anti-vax movement' per se. I think public health advocates should (re)direct their vigilance to areas where immunization rates can be affected by a sort of 'collateral damage' of other policy matters and/or ideologies – especially in the terrain of "health freedom".

And then there's Jeff Sessions, who's opposed to regulations requiring schools to protect and provide services for disabled kids, including those with ASDs. There could be some real horror stories down the road if we go backward here – a lot more pressure on parents of more severely autistic kids leading to more Kelli Stapleton-esque breakdowns and desperate bad acts – and that could re-invigorate autism fears, and refuel some sort of AV politicking.

If we wind up in that environment, I'd suggest turning your attention away from 'the usual suspects" at that embarrasing bust of a rally – those folks are spent, politically – and watch the horizen for new players, especially any sort of 'new Jenny McCarthy' figure. Someone sympathetic mediagenic, younger and new to the issue and who can present "questiions" about vaccines as a new discovery, and re-invigorate the level of mere doubt about vaccines that can get members of the next generation of non-nutjob concerned parents-to-be to be just hesitant enough about the shots to seek a PBE 'just to be safe'...

How to succuss them is anybody’s guess.

Hit them with a bible?

What if they gave a war revolution, and nobody came?

I don't know, but when you talk about unvaxed kids, don't you know that you can count me out.

At this point, I would want external evidence for any political gain they claim. There have just been too many disproven claims.

Their rousing protest in front of the National Press Club.
Literally dozens attended.
.
https://www.facebook.com/Revolution4TRUTH/videos/1294220410668812/
.
I can't help but smile at all the loons looking like drown rats halfheartedly chanting the idiotic memes. It got especially rousing when the rep. from the Weston A Price Listeriosis Society took over the microphone. /sarc

It makes you wonder why one of the anti-vaccine "heroes", like Del Bigtwig, didn't put in an appearance to buck up the troops. I guess they've all become too important to be bothered with the hoi polloi that make up their supporters.

I did think I saw a few longingly eyeing the Press Liquors store next door. Probably the folks from the TMR...

Sadmar, I won't count the anti vax loons out until my patients quit refusing vaccines and asking about "preservatives" in Vitamin K for babies.

Sadmar
I think you might have a point. Back when Wakefield first went public with his MMR scam I was a mum with 2 young autistic children and a new baby. No one was ranting about all vaccines being dangerous or wittering on about dangerous additives. It was just the MMR. Rational parents like myself were happily giving the rest of the schedule but dithering over the MMR. Now I think that genuine concerns about the MMR have been settled it is a much smaller hardcore group that have gradually become evermore paranoid. I think alas they will always have a following of 'true believers' but the sheer overwhelming dottiness of some of their beliefs means that a lot of people who might be swayed by a more moderate approach, do dismiss them as cranks. The Vaxxed team have their followers this side of the pond but they are having a hard time getting venues for their film and have had no positive media cover.

I am really proud of how well the AV groups attended this very important march, it must rank up there with MLK (being very sarcastic).

On a personal note I am in the process of planning a vacation to Chiang Mai, Thailand. I am current with my normal vaccinations (just had a tetanus booster yesterday), any special vaccinations you can think of that would be appropriate?

Also, any good ideas of places to visit while I am there? I am researching places that I might want to retire to.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich @19: The CDC's website is usually pretty up-to-date with travel medicine recommendations. They suggest Hep A and typhoid.
Have you considered Costa Rica? I've only been twice but it's been lovely both times.

@Sadmar said: "As best I can read the clues, I think 'the anti-vax movement' has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists..."

Of course there are efforts underway to create that impression--it's critical for manufacturing consent--but the reality is just the opposite. That's the reason for the frantic push to pass SB277, and to withhold child benefits from Australians who refuse to fully vaccinate, for example.

We can expect more and more efforts to prop up the shaky vaccine house of cards with coercive laws and regulations, and lots of pro-vax propaganda in the media. There are people in very high places who cannot allow that house of cards to fall.

"Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible." -- Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society (1952)

"How to succuss them is anybody’s guess."
I have a leather strap that should work fine. I'll even do the job for them.

JustaTech, I've had both the hep A and B series (part of my job requirements). I'll check out the typhoid.

Chiang Mai is one of my top relocation spots because it is central to some of the adventures that I want to do. There is a trek in Nepal called the Long Trek nd basically follows the spine of the Himalayas for 1000 miles (you can't do it in a single trekking season. Oh, there are some 20,000+ passes to go over and I have only been to 17,000.

Goodness, NWO, do you ever have anything new to say?

Out of curiosity, do you understand the germ theory of disease? Or do you ascribe all diseases to demons?

Oh, I know a great, vaccine-free place you can go! Afghanistan. You'll love it.

Liz Ditz writes,

Viewed through the lens of homeopathy, the smaller the crowd, the more powerful.

MJD say,

Very clever and funny!

From my perspective, though, the crowd reminds me of allergy immunotherapy wherein the numbers slowly increase until specific antibodies (i.e. Orac's minions) no longer consider them a threat.

Orac's is correct again when he says "Stay frosty, my friends".

To be honest, I'm anti-vaccine when the vaccine packaging says, "Warning contains natural rubber latex".

This is a coming-out (i.e., medical) personal statement from me and I feel wonderful!

Piss off, Travis J. Schwochert 239 S Church St Endeavor, WI 53930

Banhammer summoned via moderated post

Fucking Travis J. Schwochert is using the name 'Scott' now.

Yeah, I recognized it right away because he was using Scott Gavura's e-mail address. It's been dealt with.

@Orac
Can you watch my daughter for me so I can pay for an airline ticket to fly to DC to attend this event even though I am unemployed due to having to care for a permanently disabled child? Sincerely, thousands and thousands of parents of vaccine injured kids.

@Orac
If I allowed you to care for my child would you vaccinate her even though you knew it was against my wishes as a parent?

Jeff: "Sincerely, thousands and thousands of parents of vaccine injured kids."

What happened with your National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program claim? Also, do tell us what experts you called in to prove the injury was from vaccines. Also the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

Sincerely, the parents of disease injured children before the vaccine was available (which were in the tens of thousands before the mid-1960s).

Go away Travis...

“As best I can read the clues, I think ‘the anti-vax movement’ has been shrinking back to core group of fringe extremists…”

Of course there are efforts underway to create that impression...

Yeah, and it all comes from the idiot anti-vaxers themselves.

First, AoA launches a nationwide petition to the White House, and don't discourage foreign citizens from signing it, and they come up with an impressive total of less than 17,500. That's a number so small that if you put them all in California, they would each have more than 9 square miles to roam around in. It's about the population of Talladega. It's less than 1 in 18,000 Americans. I'd bet that you were one of those that signed that petition, weren't you?

Then there is the subject of our host's post, the turnout for their march. I doubt they managed to pull in enough people to fill the roster of an NFL team.

So who is behind this effort to make them look like small band loonies? How are they doing this, besides posting the truth?

Gee, our host throws out one Travis J. Schwochert 239 S Church St Endeavor, WI 53930 sock puppet, and a new one appears.

http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2017/02/the-fendlesworth-m…

Chris writes,

Also the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/latex…

MJD interjects,

From the CDC:

“If a person reports a severe (anaphylactic) allergy to latex, vaccines supplied in vials or syringes that contain natural
rubber, or whose product information does not say 'not made with natural rubber latex' should not be administered unless the benefit of vaccination outweighs the risk for a potential allergic reaction. In these cases, providers should be prepared to treat patients who are having an allergic reaction."

Offit et al. take on allergies and pediatric vaccines

http://media.chop.edu/data/files/pdfs/vaccines-allergies-qa.pdf

Result:

Allergy-induced regressive autism

Metuselah was never presented as typical, to my understanding.

They're more than dozens - their petition got about 17,000 - but they're still
A very small minority, if passionate and committed.

Jeff, I just thought of something you can do for your daughter. Find her another family that knows how to find the actual services she needs. You might start by contacting your local ARC.

She would definitely be better off with a family that did not consider her "damaged", and would actually cherish her for who she is.

On a personal note I am in the process of planning a vacation to Chiang Mai, Thailand. I am current with my normal vaccinations (just had a tetanus booster yesterday), any special vaccinations you can think of that would be appropriate?

As JustaTech says, check the CDC for current information. Without looking, I would guess that you should get a yellow fever vaccination if it's been more than ten years since your last one--many countries at those latitudes require it, at least if you plan to cross land borders. You might also want to look into malaria prophylaxis--ISTR that in parts of Southeast Asia you might encounter mefloquine-resistant malaria, but I don't know if Chiangmai is one of those areas.

Re malaria:

30 days of doxycycline should do the trick. I did that when I visited Korea a few years ago, no side effects like what you find with the quinines. Cheap, too.

@NWO Reporter & @Jeff

Obviously you must realize you're clueless but just to recap your "movement" spent MONTHS organizing a "big" rally in D.C...you even had a freakin website created. And literally less people showed up than probably designed the website. There are more people working at the corner Burger King than showed up for your "big" protest. It was embarrassing. Literally the KKK got more people at their last rally. Do you think the Klan is going to be part of a movement that's going to change legislation?

You attempted a hate laced petition to "declare autistics an epidemic" and couldn't even get 20% of the required ONLINE signatures. Were those "thousands" of parents of vaccine injured children unable to spend 16 seconds doing that? Maybe they were too busy liking Natural News articles and posting their "warrior mommy" blogs?

How about that Pan recall effort where you couldn't even get a single signature?

To say this movement is growing is a disgrace and insult to movements. Most of the people in the movement are the same ones we see online. They're loud, abrasive, annoying and science challenged. But it's the same damn charlatans. Nothing new (except adding in anti-semitism and holocaust denial to the cause: https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2017/03/31/why-are-robert-kennedy-jr-…)

It's sad that somewhere in the world (or in heaven) there are parents of someone who believes:
"There are people in very high places who cannot allow that house of cards to fall."

Can you get more paranoid/tin foil hat than that ignorant and completely not-evidence based idiotic statement.

Damn, some people...

P.S. Your movement needs a COMPLETE overhaul. It's a disaster.

Jeff: Not only would I vaccinate her, I'd make sure you never saw her again. Autistic kids need and deserve better parents than anti-vax curebie crybabies.

I'm quite sure the vast majority of people who understand the real depth of vaccine fraud realize that petitions and marches on Washington will not solve the problem. That's like asking the coyotes to do a better job guarding the hen house.

@NWO Reporter

Spoken like a true beaten down man who can't actually respond to facts so he has to go 4th grade level response "I didn't care about those marches & petitions anyways!"

Funny if the march on Washington had thousands of people he'd be the first to talk about how the world is "waking up."

Maybe look back in history and see what happened in the sixties with civil rights. Or in today's age with gay rights. Marches and petitions and a REAL movement actually changed the world. Your 12 guys with idiotic signs just made your cause look even worse.

I can't think of a so-called movement that's ever been organized worse in human history. Like I said, the KKK have more respect (and numbers) that you'll ever have. That's not debatable.

I'll bite - what are "the vast majority of people who understand the real depth of vaccine fraud" doing? Posting scientifically illiterate comments on blogs, like you?

@The 'Real Truther' -- The only thing petitions and marches can do is to alert people there is a problem they need to look into. And appease people who haven't realized the depth of the vaccine fraud, and think all we need are 'safer' vaccines.

Cute name. I see that kind of doublespeak being used a lot these days. Just call it 'truth' or 'waking up' and people believe that's what you're offering.

I see that kind of doublespeak being used a lot these days. Just call it ‘truth’ or ‘waking up’ and people believe that’s what you’re offering.

Well, it's not mindless assertions that are promptly run away from, crude attempts at animation, slorping down Rappoport's emissions, and skimming heavily from overdue child-support payments, that's true.

NWO Troll, why do you hate kids? Only a sadistic child hater would want them to suffer the high fevers and possible meningitis, encephalitis, seizures and other bad things form actual vaccine preventable diseases. Seriously, why do you hate children?

Are you a sadist who gets off on kids in pain, or do you just hate children?

Chris, your hypocrisy and corruption is monumental. Science Mom is another one of your socks, right? I see you all over vaccine media stories, slinging the same tired insults and obvious propaganda. You couldn't care less about the well-being of children.

"Hypocrisy?"

How exactly?

I'd recommend that you read "The Great Derangement" by Matt Taibbi - it very clearly explains why people like you feel the need to believe in conspiracy theories.

@ Lawrence: NWO can only sling her insults because she has no facts to support her theories. She *has* to call Chris names, because if she looked at the facts, she'd find out how wrong she is, and her narcissism won't allow for that. She obviously doesn't care for children, or the adults they will become.

@NWO: you can go ahead and call me names, too. After all, I'm an adult who suffered through most of the VPDs, being a child of the 60s. And, I didn't get the fairy-tale "life-long immunity" from most of them, thanks to a quirk in my genetics. My mom and dad would be very happy to tell you about the "pleasures" of the others they suffered. Strangely, even though we have autism in our genes, they were first in line with us, as my sister and I were, to have our children vaccinated on schedule. Guess we've just been "pharma shills" for ever. Can't wait for the nearly 80 years of shill bucks to arrive...

See Jake's blog. It seems that William Shatner is a fan.

http://www.autisminvestigated.com/william-shatner/

I have a "vaccinate" bumper sticker on my car, and recently someone who disagrees with that put the needle-baby sticker under my windshield wiper. (to their credit, they didn't damage my car)

But the baby in my sticker is white. I see the updated the baby. https://twitter.com/mem_somerville/status/837400996103979009

@NWO Reporter

Please name a SINGLE movement in US history that was instrumental in creating actual change which didn't have MASSIVE OVERWHELMING numbers at rallies, protests (peaceful or not), etc.

Women's rights movement? No.
Labor movement? No.
Civil rights movement? No.
Gay rights movement? No.

Your "movement's" biggest protest of the year barely made a single newspaper. I doubt 99.9999% of the country even knew it existed.

Like I said before, the KKK has more clout, respect and better organization than the anti-vax "movement" at this point. That is NOT debatable.

Chris, your hypocrisy and corruption [sic] is monumental. Science Mom is another one of your socks, right?

There was no need to demonstrate yet again the paucity of your imagination, I assure you.

Johnny @51
It is really hard to say if Shatner is a true antivaxer in the Robert De Niro mode,just because he retweeted one of Jake's posts.He may be one of those who are on the fence about vaccines.For the last eleven years,Mr.Shatner has been a spokesman for the March of Dimes Canada,urging the eradication of polio,and promoting vaccination for same.
https://www.marchofdimes.ca/en/aboutus/about%20modc/spokesperson/pages/…
http://www.whosay.com/status/williamshatner/1001731?wsref=tw&code=pOj9m…

I don't think Shatner is an antivaxer. At least, I've never seen any evidence that he is. I think he just picked Autism Speaks as a charity to promote and was shocked (and miffed) when a lot of autistic people took him to task for it on Twitter. Retweeting Jake was really dumb, but Shatner clearly knew nothing about Jake or his antivaccine views and probably retweeted him because he was agreeing with Shatner. It's halfway tempting to try to educate Shatner about the depths of lunacy to which Jake regularly descends, but he seems to be one of those guys who doesn't take criticism well.

I mean, blocking Ari Ne'eman? Not cool, Shat. Not cool at all.

Oh No, I am vaccine damaged. I finally pulled the dot band aid off the site of my tetanus shot I received Monday and there was a spot of blood on it.

I don't know what traumatic event from this I'll now face. Probably death in another 20 or 30 years (I am 63 now).

Your “movement’s” biggest protest of the year barely made a single newspaper. I doubt 99.9999% of the country even knew it existed.

No, you're missing the Big Picture: most of those people are patsies, led by their snouts by Disinformation Agents. Ginny's "movement" is much more, ah, stolid, as they say in Maracaibo.*

* What can I say? It's a go-to.

"Probably death in another 20 or 30 years (I am 63 now)."

And to think you could have lived to be 200. I guess I'm also screwed by vaccination. It's time to update the will.

It is really hard to say if Shatner is a true antivaxer in the Robert De Niro mode,just because he retweeted one of Jake’s posts.

I don't disagree. But Jake think's Shatner is his #1 fan. Jake's so desperate for any sort of validation that his backwater of a blog has any impact, that any mention of the blog is enough for a blog post in its own right.

It would be cute if it wasn't so sad.

MI Dawn, for the record, opining that someone engages in hypocrisy and corruption is not name-calling. Name-calling would be, for example, calling Chris a "hypocritical disinformation troll," or "corrupt mercenary troll," and I resisted the temptation. Calling someone a "sadistic child hater" would clearly be considered name-calling.

Anyway, what do you mean about calling you names "too"? Are you saying you're not just another sock? :)

You must have an exceptionally weak and disfunctional immune system. That means you're at risk from literally everything, and all the vaccines in the world can't save you. You need a bubble to live in--it could help ease your "suffering."

And "autism in your genes," too? Which genes? I'm sure genetic researchers would love to know. Must be the ones that mutated into in an autism explosion a couple decades ago. :)

You mean the more than 400 genes that researchers have identified as being related, in some form, to autism?

We are talking about a very wide spectrum - and it's quite possible that different forms of what we now consider "autism" are caused by completely different genes.

And the so-called "autism" explosion is directly related to the "explosion" of the DSM criteria for determining a diagnosis of autism.

Lawrence--Just an explosion in autism diagnoses, eh? I thought ya'll backed off that ridiculously untenable position a long time ago. But anyway, vaccines don't cause autism, strictly speaking. Autism is just one of many behavioral diagnoses that could follow from brain damage caused by vaccines. That is, when the brain damage is more than subclinical.

Really NWRO?

And what does this "brain damage" look like on an MRI?

Lawrence, that is an easy question to answer: it looks like NWOR.

Lawrence–Just an explosion in autism diagnoses, eh?

Add to that increased awareness, diagnostic substitution (people who would have been diagnosed with other conditions in the past getting diagnosed with autism today), and previous underdiagnosis (many people have only been diagnosed years into adulthood).
You're wrong that that position is untenable. Just look at the different diagnostic standards between DSM-3 and DSM-5, and still try to claim that.

And you can easily check the "diagnostic substitution" aspect, since all of the official numbers show a decline in ID diagnoses which neatly correlates with a similar rise in autism diagnoses....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK332896/

Lawrence --There's no physical test to diagnose autism, as I think you know. But in the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, quite a few injuries that include autism have been compensated, arising from vaccine-induced encephalopathy and seizure disorder. You can read the study here: https://www.ebcala.org/unanswered-questions

There are no cases in the NVICP where the plaintiff was compensated for a diagnosis of autism....

And NWRO - you're the one who claimed that autism is "Brain Damage."

Brain damage can be identified via MRI.

So what constitutes "brain damage" that equals autism?

Lawrence, note I said "injuries that include autism." If a parent makes a claim for autism as a vaccine injury in the VICP, the claim will always be denied because it's not on the list of 'approved' injuries. From the study I referenced:

"This empirical investigation, published in a peer-reviewed law journal, examines claims that the VICP compensated for vaccine-induced encephalopathy and seizure disorder. ... This study found 83 cases of acknowledged vaccine-induced brain damage that include autism..." https://www.ebcala.org/unanswered-questions

I've stopped answering the commenter, since it's pointless, but this comment is very wrong on several levels.

First, claims to VICP are not limited to a list of approved injuries. If someone claims a table injury, causation is presumed, so winning is easier - but the standard for causation in other cases is still the "more likely than not", and in fact, the requirements are lower than in the court.

Second, the reason people claiming ASD consistently lose in VICP is because the evidence shows vaccines don't cause ASD - and in many of these cases, the medical records don't support parental claims, either. Like Brian Hooker's case.

Third, the paper you are referring to did not have any cases where compensation was based on autism. In fact, in some cases the government claimed autism as a defense - as in, the child's problems are because of autism and have nothing to do with vaccines, and the court rejected the autism claim. Using that paper as evidence that vaccines have anything to do with autism is simply wrong.

I see you can't answer a very simple question.

See, you made the claim, therefore, you need to provide the evidence.

You also provided a link to a legal organization, not a scientific one....perhaps you should try again.

You must be a time traveler, NWOR - because your sh@t is so old.....http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/05/07/proof/

@JoyMama - yet we have the lowest infant and child mortality rates in history.....care to explain?

for the record, opining that someone engages in hypocrisy and corruption is not name-calling

"I love to watch the Masons squirm." – Noted late Drosophila expert

Keep digging, Ginny.

Actually, even in the US, we have mortality rates which, historically, are at their lowest points.

http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx

I really like this comparison website......because we see that European vaccine schedules aren't really any different from ours.

Travis, go away.

JoyMama, please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the disease.

We all know that Travis hates both kids and common decency.

Dorit Reiss, thanks for the info. Do you have a list of the vaccine injuries that have been compensated in the VICP which are not listed on the table?

Please note I did NOT claim any of the cases in the study were compensated for autism--in fact I went out of my way to make that clear.

re Jake and Shatner

A standup comic who knew all of the usual jibes about Shatner and who looked up who Jake is ( easy to do on the internet I've heard) could probably concoct a few jokes and scenarios about the implicit hilarity of the situation.

I'll bet that Orac and the minions could as well...

e.g. Jake Crosby and Wm Shatner walk into a bar where...

ends with something something a "remake of *Clueless" ?.

Here's a copy of the vaccine injury compensation table. According to this document: "[T]he following is a table of vaccines, the injuries, disabilities, illnesses, conditions, and deaths resulting from the administration of such vaccines, and the time period in which the first symptom or manifestation of onset or of the significant aggravation of such injuries, disabilities, illnesses, conditions, and deaths is to occur after vaccine administration for purposes of receiving compensation under the Program." https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/vaccineinjurytable.pdf

NWO Troll, you can find all of the cases that were ruled here:
http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/aggregator/sources/7

You can also find the compensation data here:
https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/data/index.html

By the way, being called a sock puppet of Science Mom is a very high compliment. Thanks. We are completely different people, and I have actually talked to Orac in real life several years ago at a TAM (The Amazing Meeting which used to held by the James Randi Foundation).

By the way, being called a sock puppet of Science Mom is a very high compliment.

It's as though teh NWOR doesn't understand what the "expanding Earth" business is for.

I'm still hoping Dorit Reiss can provide a list of just the "off-table" vaccine injuries that have been compensated. I looked around, and although there are attorneys who say they have helped clients receive awards for off-table injuries, I couldn't find any who listed what those injuries were. :)

Travis J. Schwochert 239 S Church St Endeavor, WI 53930 is up to his usual tricks, this time pretending to be KristinMH

http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2017/02/the-fendlesworth-m…

Go away Travis J Schwochert.

Travis - just go away.

How are you going to get gainful employment if you spend all of your time here, sockpuppeting?

Got him again. Amazing how he manages to keep finding commenters from the past whose e-mail addresses he can learn or guess. Ah, well, I have 350,000 comments in the archive. Although he's been scraping the barrel, there could still be a lot left.

Perhaps you should call those lawyers then....

@169 (NWO Reporter)

The law clearly lags behind the scientific evidence, and the overwhelming evidence that alleged cases of vaccine-induced encephalopathy are caused by pre-existing mutations rather than by vaccination began to accumulate little more than a decade ago. Nonetheless, it's been clear for years that the "Shot In The Dark" frenzy that reanimated the anti-vaccine movement years before Wakefield turned his attention to MMR really had nothing to do with vaccines.

The 83 claims cited in the EBCALA article would likely not be compensated today, now that the scientific evidence that the condition is caused by mutations is so clear. (Hint: these mutations cause such syndromes in unvaccinated laboratory animals.) Accordingly, the US Court of Federal Claims has begun to deny such claims and even to require genotyping--at least insofar as checking for mutations in the one particular gene (among many various genes known to cause this and similar syndromes) that is most commonly involved. Compensation was awarded in 0 of 16 recent cases that involved the suggested genotyping. See this recent decision, for example:

https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2010vv0394-130-0

Here are some of the papers that suggest that cases like those cited in the EBCALA article are caused by mutation and not by vaccination:

--Berkovic SF et al. De-novo mutations of the sodium channel gene SCN1A in alleged vaccine encephalopathy: a retrospective study. Lancet Neurol. 2006 Jun;5(6):488-92.
--Catarino CB et al. Dravet syndrome as epileptic encephalopathy: evidence from long-term course and neuropathology. Brain. 2011 Oct;134(Pt 10):2982-3010.
--Garcia-Junco-Clemente P et al. Overexpression of calcium-activated potassium channels underlies cortical dysfunction in a model of PTEN-associated autism. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2013 Nov 5;110(45):18297-302
--Guglielmi L et al. Update on the implication of potassium channels in autism: K(+) channel autism spectrum disorder. Front Cell Neurosci. 2015 Mar 2;9:34.
--Li BM et al. Autism in Dravet syndrome: prevalence, features, and relationship to the clinical characteristics of epilepsy and mental retardation. Epilepsy Behav. 2011 Jul;21(3):291-5
--Okumura A et al. Acute encephalopathy in children with Dravet syndrome. Epilepsia. 2011 Nov 16.
--Reyes IS et al. Alleged Cases of Vaccine Encephalopathy Rediagnosed Years Later as Dravet Syndrome. Pediatrics. 2011 Aug 15.
--Schmunk G, Gargus J. Channelopathy pathogenesis in autism spectrum disorders. Front Genet. 2013 Nov 5;4:222.
--Wiznitzer M. Dravet syndrome and vaccination: when science prevails over speculation. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):559-61.
--Wolff M et al. Severe myoclonic epilepsy of infants (Dravet syndrome): natural history and neuropsychological findings. Epilepsia. 2006;47 Suppl 2:45-8.

Barbara Loe Fisher has some interesting history about the VICP. Apparently, many vaccine injuries that were initially listed on the Table were removed--making compensation much more difficult to obtain. And without an accessible list of non-Table injuries that have been compensated, how many consumers will associate their serious injury with a vaccine? I mean, it's not as if their doctor is going to suggest it to them 99% of the time.

"In the 1990’s, DHHS chose to wield discretionary authority given under the Act to change the rules and eliminate almost all on-Table adverse events that would allow for presumption of causation. With the assistance of the Department of Justice, DHHS turned the administrative compensation process into a highly adversarial, lengthy, expensive, traumatic and unfair imitation of a court trial for vaccine victims and their attorneys. The only difference is that the trial is now conducted in the U.S. Court of Claims in front of one individual who acts as judge and jury.

"Ironically, parents who helped create the Act in the 1980’s were told that Congress needed to grant the Secretary of DHHS broad discretionary authority to alter the Vaccine Injury Table so the Secretary could expand the list of presumptions for injuries associated with existing and future vaccines to make the system more inclusive not less inclusive. We never imagined DHHS would take away existing presumptions from the Table because the stated purpose of the Act was to err on the side of compensating potential vaccine victims in order to offer an effective alternative to vaccine injury lawsuits."

http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/vaccineinjury.aspx

Yes, injuries were removed when new science showed vaccines don't cause them. The table has recently been updated.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=HRSA_FRDOC_0001-0314

"New science showed vaccines don't cause them." LOL. What a surprise. :D

But jokes aside, Dorit, if that were proven, there would be no cases in which compensation was subsequently awarded for those injuries, I assume. What non-Table injuries have been compensated? Where can consumers find a list of compensated non-Table injuries?

“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.” Dr. Marcia Angell, NY Review of Books, Jan. 15, 2009. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doc…

The department of justice published quarterly reports of compensations.

@NWO Reporter, #86

the vaccine injury compensation table ... “[T]he following is a table of vaccines, the injuries, disabilities, illnesses, conditions, and deaths resulting from the administration of such vaccines,..."

You are lying as usual, this time by omission and suggestion. This wording does not constitute proof that vaccines are in fact causing aforementioned harm; it merely defines the conditions and time windows for claims with the VICP to be acknowledged. See page 12 of this document for more precise information.
Also note that according to the VICP, the burden of proof has been reversed for anything listed in the vaccine injury compensation table: "If the first symptom of these [listed] injuries/conditions occurs within the listed time periods, it is presumed that the vaccine was the cause of the injury or condition unless another cause is found."

If I may repeat the important bit: "... it is presumed that the vaccine was the cause ...". In other words: if a condition mentioned in the table develops in the time frame mentioned in the table, VaccineDidIt by default, no further proof needed.

@Dorit Reiss -- The DOJ summarizes awards by vaccine and does not distinguish Table and non-Table. Where are consumers supposed to get that information?

@Richard -- I simply quoted the HRSA website (note the quotations marks). If it's a lie by omission or suggestion, it's not mine. :)

You only quoted what you wanted....

The decisions are public....perhaps you should read them.

Lawrence: The funny thing is that Chris provided a link to all the court decisions way back at comment 87, but it's not a nice neat table so NWO would have to put in effort to read all the court decisions and make a table.
And it's a lot of decisions, it would take a long time to read them all.

Sure, JustaTech. Anyone who wants to know what non-Table vaccine injuries have been compensated in the VICP can simply devote all their spare time for the next three years to reading through historical VICP decisions.

By the time they figure out whether their infant's sudden unexplained death or permanent disability may have been caused by his last round of vaccines, the statute of limitation will have run. Problem solved! :D

NWO: You could do it, and put it up online for all those parents you say you speak for. That would be very helpful to them.
Or you could crowd-source it to a larger group of like-minded people.
Or you could pay Mechanical Turk to do it for you, although that might end up being expensive; I don't know their going rate.

About autism genetics: about half of genetic sequences that cause autism are known, but they are searching for more:
https://sparkforautism.org/

It would require answering a questionnaire and getting swab samples from the child and both parents. It is explained in the following video, which notes that there are now parent groups based on the child specific autism related genetic sequence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOQ9s0GcG5s&feature=youtu.be

Of course not, JustaTech. She doesn't want to put that kind of effort in only to find she's wasted her time . . . because she won't find what she's looking for.

Lazy thinking. She thinks that by crying for some kind of easy to read table she can prove the government is trying to hide something.

Actually, I think summarizing the basis for the VICP awards could be a very worthwhile project. If it weren't, the government agencies charged with running the VICP would surely be doing it themselves, so the information would be readily available to the public, as well as medical professionals. :)

Well, NWO Retorter finally served a purpose. For years, I've had a reaction to carrageenan/agar-agar that hit 9 of the 10 classical symptoms of a heart attack (as it turns out, it induces an arrhythmia). I've spent a decade looking to see if there's a link between allergies and arrhythmias, never found anything. But when I was looking at the Table Injuries, I noticed that it had a definition of anaphylaxis that included brady- and tachycardias and arrhythmias.

Which finally gave me the right search term. Loads of medical info on anaphylactic arrhythmia.

Thank you, NWO. And don't forget to vaccinate your children (and yourself, for shingles and the toxoid boosters)

@96 (NWO Reporter)

Barbara Loe Fisher has some interesting history

Indeed, she does. Perhaps the most interesting aspect of that history is that Fisher has wasted much of her adult life by spewing anti-vaccine misinformation due to her misunderstanding of the sort of genetically-determined cases that you referenced in your comment regarding the pitiful EBCALA article, when she could have been doing something more productive--like this:

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/8543

@NWO Troll

Medical professionals have little need for a table of court cases. Legal theories don't impact scientific conclusions, and they are not scientific evidence of anything.

Panacea--I guess by "legal theories" you're referring to VICP decisions, which are based on medical evidence and expert medical testimony. I'm afraid your sentence makes no sense. :)

NWO: the standard of evidence in VICP is basically whether or not the injury is plausible -- which, for table injuries, effectively means answering yes to two questions: "did you or your child have a table injury" and "did this injury occur within a reasonable time period after a vaccination". There is no requirement that the actual injury be proven to have been caused by the vaccine; it merely has to be plausible.

This is an easier standard than you'll find in a regular courtroom, where you actually need to prove causation.

This is indeed quite different from a scientific standard of evidence, which is far more rigorous than a legal standard is.

80% of all compensation for vaccine injuries through VICP is made through settlement agreements. That really helps keep a low profile on vaccine injuries--the settlements are confidential; and there is no admission the vaccine caused the injury.

If you read through the VICP decisions that went to a contested hearing, it's one denial of compensation after another. There is no right to a jury--the only decision-maker is paid by the system. The cases often take many years to resolve--no better than regular court cases.

The VICP needs to go. Cases of vaccine injury need to be litigated like any other product injury case--just like they used to be, until vaccine manufacturers were bailed out of the onslaught of litigation they were facing from injuries caused by their products in the 1980s.

80% of all compensation for vaccine injuries through VICP is made through settlement agreements. That really helps keep a low profile on vaccine injuries–the settlements are confidential; and there is no admission the vaccine caused the injury.

I know you are only trolling. However, this is worth commenting on. The settlement agreements are for Table injuries. These are paid out regardless of whether there is any evidence that the vaccine caused the injury. The injury merely had to occur within the specified time frame.

There is nothing low profile about the Table Injury list. They are listed on the website.

Actually, today many of the settlements are not for Table Injuries. They're still paid independent of causation. All a settlement shows it that the parties settled. It can be anything from "not worth the time" to pity money to "maybe there's a chance they'll win." We just can't know. Settlements don't show causation.

Also note that the fact that there was a settlement is not secret, there's a decision on that.

Here's a "revolutionary" idea: Let the chips fall where they may in the market when it comes to vaccines--just like they do for every other product. Require vaccine injury claimants to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the vaccine caused their injury. Let them have a right to a jury decision on the matter, just like they would in any other product liability case. If vaccine manufacturers can't stay in business because their products harm too many people, then let them go out of business, just like manufacturers of any other product.

Seems like any cheerleaders here who genuinely believe vaccines are "extraordinarily safe" should welcome the idea.

Thanks Dorit.

You've obviously never been involved in Civil Litigation....you suggest that it would be better to go back to a system where the standards of evidence are substantially higher, where the process can take a decade or more (not counting appeals), and costs the plaintiffs tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Today, we have a non-adversarial system, with a lowered standard of evidence, which costs the plaintiffs functionally no money whatsoever....a system, I'll remind you, which was created with the full support of Barbara Loe Fisher as well.

She only turned against it when she realized it wasn't going to be an unlimited piggy bank of money for anyone and everyone who felt they suffered a "vaccine injury."

Yet another anti-vaxer who really doesn't understand how the system works, or just doesn't bother to read.

NWO Reporter, do you know what Marcia Angell (quoted at #98) thinks of vaccination ?

I think NWO is hoping to bypass the actual scientific facts completely. A trial with a jury means a jury of peers. Then you face off a scientific expert trying to explain trials and evidence against highly emotional parents and their lawyers who are convinced of their case and liable to directly attack any expert as bought and paid for. The jury would be quite capable of ignoring science and going with feeling.

@NWO: sorry I didn't reply yesterday, but I had things to do. No, sorry to disappoint you, I'm not anyone's sockpuppet. Orac, whom I have met, can vouch for me. I sadly have not met the other commenters with brains who post here, and I would love to do so, one day.

Actually, I have a very good immune system normally. I get very few colds, and I am immune to most of the VPDs that I caught in childhood. Just, by some quirk, I didn't become immune to measles or mumps. Rubella, I did become immune to. Go figure. I will mount a temporary immune response with the MMR for measles and mumps, but it fades within 5 years. So I just keep getting it.

And also, yes, there are family members in my history who, if living today, would readily be diagnosed as autistic - even severely so. Cousins who were institutionalized for "mental retardation", a cousin who was "so naughty and unmanageable unless his routines were followed precisely"...lots of family letters discussing these things.

Remember, the diagnosis of autism was only created in the 1930s to give a name to a known phenomenom. And many more children and people were just thrown into institutions. All well before the "autism explosion".

By the way...explain why the diagnoses for childhood schizophrenia and children with mental retardation went down on about the same trajectory that autism diagnoses went up? Could it be clearer diagnostic rules for each disease?

Let them have a right to a jury decision on the matter, just like they would in any other product liability case.

They do have a right to a jury trial. Vaccine court decisions can be appealed.

What else do you want to be wrong about?

Also, Civil Litigation doesn't always mean "jury trial." Many, in fact, are trial by just Judge.

Product liability trials are incredibly complex & take years, sometimes decades and can cost millions of dollars....just look at how long the Tobacco Litigation took & you had both the government and hard science on the right side.

Johnny @ #124: "What else can you be wrong about?"

There's no way to tell WHAT she will be wrong about, but you can bet everything you own on the proposition that the number of errors/misstatements/fabrications per post will be greater than or equal to 1.

@ NWO Troll #113: Nice dodge. That's not what I said at all, but since you're accusomed to looking at information through a distorted lens it really is not a surprise that you didn't comprehend what I was talking about. Let me recap.

You said medical professionals could use a table of legal decisions summarizing the legal basis, not scientific basis, of VICP awards.

I said medical professionals such as myself have no use for such a table. A legal decision is not scientific evidence because legal decisions use different standards of evidence and proof. It's literally an apples vs oranges situation.

Yes I get that courts use science all the time as evidence. But the evidence flow is unidirectional: from medical researchers to the courts, to help the Special Masters understand the science so they can apply the law correctly.

The law is not applied to scientific conclusions in reverse, although legislators have tried (North Carolina's attempt to do this ended with much hilarity: http://wunc.org/post/state-outlawed-climate-change-accepts-latest-sea-l…).

How VICP rules on a claim for damages has no impact on my treatment decisions as a future nurse practitioner. I will be make my vaccine recommendations based on the CDC and AAP guidelines, not on how the Special Masters ruled on some case 25 years ago.

@Lawrence: what NWO Troll wants is a return to what happened after that horrible DPT report by Lea Thompson in the 1980's.

After that scare a lot of parents filed lawsuits against the pharma companies. The judgements could have bankrupted them. Congress recognized the public health disaster in the making and set up the VICP to allow patients with genuine injuries access to compensation without destroying a vital public health tool.

NWO Troll knows that. That's why she wants the court to go. She knows that if it were ever repealed, lawsuits would destroy our vaccination programs.

She's a real pill. She's rather see thousands of people get sick and die or suffer permanent sequelae than admit she's WRONG.

They do have a right to a jury trial. Vaccine court decisions can be appealed.

There are no juries involved in the appeals chain. Before Bruesewitz, it was nominally possible to reject the OSM decision and pick back up in state court.

^ Gah. I have to rearrange this mess or give up on blockquotes entirely.

Here’s a “revolutionary” idea: Let the chips fall where they may in the market when it comes to vaccines plaintiffs

FTFY. You're advocating a lottery system, period.

Yeah, it looks like I was wrong on the jury part.

However, vaccine court cases can still be appealed, all the way to the Supremes should one be so inclined.

You’ve obviously never been involved in Civil Litigation….

I imagine that her role as a lawyer for a child-support collection agency with a lousy reputation mostly involves boilerplate.

"or give up on blockquotes entirely"

HTML is not designed for humans. I gave up on manually editing tags in the 90s. Scienceblogs comment system should allow human-friendly editing of text, or perhaps automate it. When you type a link it correctly tags it. That's at least a start. When you get shouty it should convert your text to all upper case. For some commenters it should automagically set the font to Comic Sans.

rs: I don't know about Comic Sans, but I do remember, years ago, that some blog owners (not Orac) would dis-em-vowel trolling commentors as a final warning before banning them altogether.
That was fun because if you worked at it for a bit you could usually figure out what they were saying, even without vowels.

Circling back to the idea of making a database of all the VICP cases, it seems like something that could be automated with a decent scrape and search program.
Sadly that kind of programming is outside of my current ability, but it would be an interesting dataset to investigate. See if there are trends in cases brought by specific lawyers or if there have been changes in rates of specific table injuries.

@JustaTech: PZ Myers used to disemvowel trolls. It was fun, especially figuring out words that could go multiple ways and still make sense.

In new vaccine news, via Mike the Mad Biologist, "Five HIV patients left 'virus-free' with no need for daily drugs in early vaccine trials", here. "n" is pretty small, but here's hoping.

I almost feel sorry for AoA at this point, as it seems that they still haven't figured out that Hooker is so full of crap that he must have fallen into severe constipation as a coping mechanism.

Narad, as an Environmental Health Specialist the idea of swimming in a cesspool while severely constipated strikes me as the height of comedy.

@140 (Narad)

Special Master Hastings noted that the 2011 Amended Petition that Hooker filed in the US Court of Federal Claims alleged that Hooker's son "developed “mercury poisoning” as a result of the MMR vaccination he received on February 25, 1999, and his fourth Hib vaccination, received on May 26, 1999. . . . (Although it is noteworthy that one of those two vaccinations, the MMR, in fact did not contain any mercury.)"

Yes. Really.

Hooker might be hard-pressed to answer this question: If you're neck-deep in a latrine and someone throws a bucket of piss at you, do you duck?

Ty Bollinger, the bodybuilder turned scam artist famous for his "The Truth About Cancer" fake documentary series (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-truth-about-cancer-series-is-untru…) now is airing a new fake documentary, called "The Truth About Vaccines". He's paying for it to be a sponsored and heavily promoted site on Facebook. His followers are cultlike in their devotion - check out one of the comment threads if you feel like vomiting.

The Beginning of the End of the Republican Congress: Chaffetz vs. Allen

gregladen — Thu, 09 Mar 2017 08:59:53 +0000

The Beginning of the End of the Republican Congress: Chaffetz vs. Allen

In Health Care Insurance Reform We See The History of the Republican Party

Very few American policy initiatives have been as popular as Obamacare. The fact that several years of Republican opposition to the Affordable Care Act did not result in any alternative policies or specific revisions to the law suggest that Republicans were aware of that. Touting opposition and threatening to repeal worked with their base, but actually doing something would lead to widespread outrage and loss of votes, possibly loss of actual elections.

The worst nightmare of Republican members of the House and Senate is that they get the bone they have been groveling for and have to explain to the American people exactly how they are going to dismantle and destroy this popular government program.

Do you remember ClintonCare? Back when Bill Clinton was President, his wife, Hillary was her name, headed a project to develop a major overhaul of the American health care insurance system. Unfortunately, the Gingrich Republicans took over the government at that time. The Republicans had no reason to be against a fair health care system, other than the requirement to implement the new Gingrich Doctrine: Destroy the democrats at all costs, make them the minority party, then start to govern.

(By the way, one could argue that Republicans could be against reform because they are against big and complex governmetnal structures and such. But health care reform that leads in the direction of a single payer system is less complicated, less of a requirement for complex regulation, and generally, much simpler.)

Hillary Clinton's health care reform plan was an early and major victim of this new anti-D/democratic plan (small and large "d") initiated by the Republican Party. And, at that time, Hillary Clinton herself became the perennial punching bag of the Republican Party.

That punching bag effect, the decades of hate and rage against Hillary Clinton, certainly contributed to her loss in the last election. And, part of that hate came in the form of the Benghazi investigations.

Benghazi refers to a terrible event in which bad guys attacked the US embassy in Libya, with Ambassador J. Chrisopher Stevens, a friend and colleague of then Secretary of State Clinton, was killed, along with three other Americans.

Chaffetz TownHall in February

Jason Chaffetz: Foot Meet Mouth

A congressman named Jason Chaffetz, Republican from Utah, was a vocal member of the committee that carried out a long investigation that tried very hard to lay blame for this attack on Clinton. It was a mean spirited and horrific misuse of governmental power that members of the committee, at various times and places, admitted openly to have been a political fraud. But, this effort was key, recent, and probably determinative of the degree of anti-Clinton feelings across the right wing and centrist parts of the political spectrum, and materially contributed to Donald Trump becoming president. The absurdity of this dirty and embarrassing chapter in American Political history is painfully underscored by the fact that Chaffetz himself voted to reduce the funding for security at embassies, which is the real reason this attack cost American lives.

Chaffetz is now intensely engaged, as are many other Republican members of Congress, in repealing and replacing Obamacare. And, his constituents are not having it. Chaffetz is one of those congresscritters who was screamed at by the outraged members of their districts. Outraged about his desire to nix Obamacare, outraged about his general support of Donald Trump, all that.

Buk buk buk buk! A chicken. Coming home to roost.

Then, Chaffetz made the fatal error, placed the nearly weightless but final straw upon the camel's back, and he is the camel. He ended his political career by focusing too much on the smart phone and not enough on what people around him were saying. Sort of.

He did that thing Republicans do when they talk about poor people. It comes in a lot of forms, but it is, at the root of it, disdain cloaked in a deep layer of mushy ignorance. Chaffetz told poor people that they needed to make a basic choice in life. Get a phone, or get health insurance.

This is wrong on so many levels that I can't even ... But just so certain points are not lost, let's covers some of them.

1) A cell phone and a cell phone plan cost a fraction of health care plans under the proposed Republican program.

2) Rich people, under TrumpCare, will get a tax break, in a single year, sufficient to cover their cell phone costs until they die, while lower income folks will get nothing more than a new Canadian Province. Nunavut.

3) I say poor people, and he meant poor people, but really, this problem applies to most people.

4) You need a phone TO MAKE A DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENT YOU IDIOT!!!

Sorry for shouting. But I think you get the point. Jason Chaffetz stuck his rhetorical foot fatally in his political mouth.

Introducing Kathryn Allen

Kathryn Allen is a Utah based physician, a Democrat, who is one of those constituents of the hapless Congressman Chaffetz who rose in outrage against him. But Dr. Allen is taking this one step farther. She made a proposal, on an internet crowdfunding site, that she could run against him in the upcoming midterm election, if people wanted her to. She described herself and her potential candidacy, and asked for financial support from those who might prefer her over that other guy, the Benghazi guy, the anti-Healthcare reform guy, the Pro-Trump guy.

Kathryn Allen, Candidate for Utah's 3rd Congressional District.

And they did. Especially after the Chaffetz iPhone remark. Right after he made that remark, her crowdfunding site went from near zero to over $80,000 in a Utah Minute. Today, as I write this, it is at $256.495, up from the $253,455 when I captured the image for the graphic at the top of this post, about three minutes ago. And continuing to rise (check here for the latest number).

I think Dr Allen's candidacy is amazing, hopeful a sign of our times, and a harbinger for the future. If you are in her district, go work for her, if not, send her some buks!

Oh look, she's up another thousand in another two minutes.....

Here is Rachel Maddow's coverage of this amazing story:

UPDATE: Apple Responds with the Apple Health Care Plan:

gregladen Thu, 03/09/2017 - 03:59

Antivaxers lobbying Rep. Jason Chaffetz to investigate the CDC fawn over parents who let their child with bacterial meningitis die of medical neglect

oracknows — Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:00:38 +0000

Antivaxers lobbying Rep. Jason Chaffetz to investigate the CDC fawn over parents who let their child with bacterial meningitis die of medical neglect

Yesterday, I took note of a meeting of advocates and lawyers with Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT), the chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform (OGR), which makes him a very powerful Congressman. The group that met with him included Del Bigtree, the producer of Andrew Wakefield’s antivaccine propagandafest of a “documentary” VAXXED: From Cover-up to Catastrophe; Levi Quackenboss, the pseudonymous blogger best known recently for getting into a fight over vaccine evidence with a 12-year-old and losing badly, leading her to try to dox the child and look even worse as a result; anti-GMO activist Tami Canal, the founder of March Against Monsanto; and, apparently, some lawyers, no doubt lawyers interested in destroying the National Vaccine Injury Compensation System and the Vaccine Court, so that they can seek big paydays for “vaccine injury” from vaccine manufacturers. After the meeting, both Bigtree and Quackenboss were crowing all over their Facebook page and blog, respectively, about how they thought that Chaffetz would investigate the CDC based on the overheated conspiracy theory of the “CDC whistleblower,” explained in more detail in my last post. Given that Chaffetz hails from Utah, the epicenter of the supplement industry in the US, and is in the pocket of the supplement industry to the point that he was co-chair of the Dietary Supplement Caucus (yes, it exists), I thought I had reason to be concerned that he might be susceptible to the blandishments of antivaccine cranks, coupled with a lovely conspiracy theory that would allow him to investigate the CDC, given the history of the OGR with respect to antivaccine pseudoscience and other quackery. After all, it was just 2013 when antivaxers were lobbying Chaffetz's predecessor, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) on the same issues, sans CDC whistleblower conspiracy theory. And don't get me started on the long history of quacks using this committee to harass the FDA over its "persecution" of cancer quack Stanislaw Burzynski when Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) was chair back in the 1990s.

As if it weren’t bad enough that the OGR chair is giving what sounds like a congenial, sympathetic hearing to antivaccine activists, I have to wonder if Mr. Chaffetz knows just how despicable the people to whom he gave a hearing and on whose behalf he might be launching a Congressional investigation are. I really do. Andrew Wakefield, of course, needs little explanation. He’s the single most famous antivaccine activist alive today, or at least he’d be my first pick for that dubious “honor.” A now utterly disgraced and discredited physician and researcher, Wakefield rose to infamy when he published a small case series in 1998 that purported to show an association between the MMR vaccine and bowel problems in autistic children. It was the paper that launched a thousand antivaccine quacks and gave birth to the MMR scare that continues to this day, in the process causing MMR uptake in the UK to plummet and measles, previously controlled, to come roaring back. Ultimately, Wakefield was stripped of his medical license for research misconduct and saw his 1998 paper retracted. Now, he’s known for appearing on cruises for conspiracy theorists and making antivaccine propaganda films like VAXXED. Unfortunately, he’s also responsible, along with biochemical engineer turned antivaccine activist and incompetent epidemiologist, Brian Hooker, birthed the “CDC whistleblower” conspiracy theory.

These are the people with whom Del Bigtree has associated himself: A disgraced physician/scientist who no longer has a license to practice because of his research misconduct, an anti-GMO crank, and a pseudonymous antivaccine blogger so insecure about her position that she attacked a 12-year-old boy who challenged it, not to mention a bevy of lawyers seeking a big payday after tearing down the NVICP. That’s bad enough, but here’s whom else Bigtree associates with, the parents of a child named Ezekiel Stephan, who died of bacterial meningitis because they were too busy treating him with herbs and maple syrup to take him to a real doctor in time to save his life. As a result, Stephan’s parents were convicted of failing to provide the necessities of life and are due to be sentenced this week. Not surprisingly, these parents, David and Collet Stephan, are antivaccine as well, and have thus become martyrs in the eyes of the antivaccine movement.

So, after a showing of VAXXED in Calgary, Del Bigtree fawned all over them after the Q&A and posted it to Facebook:

Yes, as Reasonable Hank put it, the VAXXED documentary team is rallying behind actual child killers because they are antivaccine and can be portrayed as martyrs to the cause of “vaccine freedom” and “health freedom.” So, not only are the people Mr. Chaffetz met with rallying behind parents who were convicted of letting their child die through medical neglect, but, as Michael Platt put it, the Stephans show no remorse whatsoever. Before I go on, let me make this clear. I have no doubt that David and Collet Stephan suffered horribly when Ezekiel died. I have no doubt that they still mourn him, four years later. It is, however, four years later. Life goes on, and the grief becomes less intense. What I mean by "remorse" is not that they weren't devastated by their loss. What I mean is that they have no remorse for their role in Ezekiel's death. They view themselves, rather than Ezekiel, as the victim. It's now all about them, rather than their child, and they view themselves as blameless.

In fact, they try very hard to blame the ambulance drivers who tried to save Ezekiel’s life:

“This isn’t the way the media has played it out to be. They’ve tried to distance us from the average person by trying to say that he was too stiff, stiff as a board, to get into his car seat, he had to be fed somehow through an eyedropper, he was being treated for meningitis with maple syrup and fruits and berries — that’s not the case at all,” says the negligent father, in an infuriating video now plastered on YouTube.

“We were treating our child with different homeopathic remedies, different herbal remedies like tens of thousands of people do. Nothing out of the ordinary and he wasn’t severely ill. Then everything just came to a crash on an evening, he ended up in an ambulance that didn’t have the right equipment and he subsequently ended up brain-dead.”

This is, to put it kindly, utter and complete bullshit. First of all, homeopathy is The One Quackery To Rule Them All, the most ridiculous of quackeries. If the Stephans were treating a seriously ill patient with homeopathy, then they were committing medical neglect, plain and simple. Also, the testimony of the coroner was very clear that Ezekiel had been in dire straights for quite some time before his death and that Ezekiel was dead before EMS intervened. Watching the video, I felt bile rising in the back of my throat and a burning rage start to consume me that took considerable effort to bring under control. As Platt notes:

All the dad lacks is a halo, to set off his mantle of martyrdom.

Given another chance, and it seems all the Stephans would do differently for a sick child that had stopped breathing is not call the ambulance, because it wasn’t equipped with the right equipment to provide oxygen to an 18-month-old.

It’s a halo that Del Bigtree tries his best to buff to the greatest shine possible. The only way Bigtree could have his lips more firmly attached to David Stephan’s posterior would be to insert his head in Stephan’s rectum, so much so that he enthusiastically lets himself be used to rally support for the Stephans in their sentencing hearing today and tomorrow:

On Thursday, the couple is back before a Lethbridge judge for a two-day sentencing hearing, and in the video, the Stephans ask that supporters flock to the court dressed in blue jeans and white shorts to bolster their cause.

“Ultimately it comes down to whether we have the right to vaccinate or not vaccinate without being held criminally liable,” says the dad.

“Or whether or not we have to rush our children to the doctor every time they even just get the sniffles, in fear that something may just randomly happen and then we’re held liable.”

So let me bet this straight. The Stephans didn’t vaccinate their child, who developed bacterial meningitis, which quite possibly could have started with an HiB infection, which is a vaccine-preventable disease. Of course, that's not the worst of it. Even if they had vaccinated their child, they still neglected him medically. After all, they treated their child with homeopathy, maple syrup, and various herbal concoctions even though he was slowly getting worse and worse. Finally, their child Ezekiel stopped breathing, and only that was enough to get them to call an ambulance. When the paramedics couldn’t revive Ezekiel, they tried to blame them. Now they’re milking their notoriety for publicity, and Del Bigtree is helping them do it. As Platt sarcastically notes, regardless of whether they get probation or five years in prison, “it seems David and Collet Stephan have learned but one thing from their loss — and that’s how to use the publicity to their best advantage.”

One wonders if Chaffetz knew what he was getting into when he agreed to meet with Bigtree and his crew. I realize that Bigtree didn’t make his video of the Stephans until a couple of days after his meeting with Chaffetz, but there are plenty of other things that date back months that a competent Congressional staff should have identified. For instance, one wonders if Chaffetz was aware of how Hooker, Wakefield, and Bigtree have been courting of the Nation of Islam to spread the antivaccine message. One wonders how well that would go over among Chaffetz’s constituents.

In the end, Chaffetz is letting himself be used by Bigtree and antivaccinationists. I suspect he realizes that but see some sort of political advantage to be had. Perhaps he can use the incident to portray himself as fighting for “health freedom” and against overweening government. Who knows? I just hope he figures out what a mistake he’s making before he causes too much mischief. Unfortunately, I doubt that he will.

ADDENDUM: Surprise, surprise! Collet Stephan is pulling a fast one at the Stephans' sentencing hearing by claiming that the autopsy report was falsified.

oracknows Wed, 06/22/2016 - 21:00

Tags

Antivaccine nonsense

complementary and alternative medicine

Skepticism/Critical Thinking

House Committee on Oversight & Government Reform

Jason Chaffetz

medical neglect

vaccine

complementary and alternative medicine

medicine

Unless ambulances come equipped with a TARDIS, there is nothing they could've brought that would've saved Ezekiel.

I just love how their supporters are blind to the part where death of their child caused Stephens seemingly no distress. All they talk about is how they are hounded for "doing the right thing", how it is not their fault. But the fact that the child is dead seems to have no bearing on their attitude in any way, except being the reason for the heat put on them.

That's how you know they're the good guys. By seeing how they care more about media/law reaction to their son's death, rather than the death itself. If that ain't a sign of psychopathy I don't know what is...

A few random thoughts:

A. This choice really is telling. Whether it's from real sympathy with the parents and lack of emphasis on the child or as a way to latch onto a controversial issue to get more attention to Vaxxed just before the end of its theater run, it's not to the creators' and the Vaxxed Team's credit.

B. I may be too easy on the parents, but I don't think they didn't care about the boy, and the court didn't either - no remorse, not getting what they did wrong, doesn't mean his death didn't hurt. My impression is that they did feel it at the time, four years ago. But - not to their credit - they really don't get what they did wrong. I guess it's human nature not to want to acknowledge that they failed him to that degree, but it's not to their credit.

C. Sentencing in the Stephans' is today and tomorrow. I wonder what will happen.

That... that is actually a very fair point, Dorit. Let's not forget that it happened over four years ago by now - that is a lot of time to deal with the grief and, seemingly, get over something like the death of your child.

It is not like it happened just the other week and they are acting the way they are.

Just in case I made it sound like "they cared then and don't now: nor my intent.

I hope I never face losing a child, but from talking to those who have I understand that it never stops hurting. You never really get over. But after a few years most people, we hope, get to the point where they can function and act in spite of the grief. Doesn't mean they don't care about the loss.

I don't know how things are here.

So let me bet this straight. The Stephans didn’t vaccinate their child, who developed bacterial meningitis, which quite possibly could have started with an HiB infection, which is a vaccine-preventable disease.

There was some debate on Jezabel's and other articles as the minimal age for having the full HiB vaccination - the question was, would Ezekiel have had the full series before becoming infected. Although it should be done by 11 months, I believe, so a 18-month old child would have been protected.

Anyway, Ezekiel's vaccination status is a red herring.

The fact remains that he was sick for two-and-half weeks, and by all accounts it was a bit more serious than the "sniffles".
The fact remains that the parents ignored the advice of at least two people they trusted (a nurse friend, and the ND the mom visited to get echinacea), and who flatly told them it could be meningitis and a visit to a doctor may be warranted.
The fact remains that when he collapsed, he was dehydrated and malnourished. The dehydration was one of the reasons the ambulance crew couldn't do much for him: his veins had collapsed and couldn't be used for IV.

All of this has nothing to do with vaccination (aside as an example of crank magnetism). It's child neglect, pure and simple.

To go back to Stephan:

he was being treated for meningitis with maple syrup and fruits and berries — that’s not the case at all,
[...]We were treating our child with different homeopathic remedies, different herbal remedies

How is treating you child with sugary water and vegetable concoctions "not the case at all", you sad excuse for a human being?

like tens of thousands of people do.

As someone pointed in a different article, it this that true, then we should be seeing tens of thousands of children dying of meningitis.

I've finally managed to track down Ezekiel's autopsy findings (courtesy of a posting on the Stephan's own Facebook page).

I have an interest in this, as I am often asked to provide evidence on coronial autopsy findings from a microbiological perspective to help determine the cause of death.

This can be challenging, as micro-organisms often enter usually sterile sites (eg the meninges or the pleural spaces) after death due to the breakdown of the usual physical and immunological barriers that are present in life.

Also, autopsies are not "sterile" procedures; i.e. the equipment used to obtain specimens is not sterile and can contaminate specimens that are sent to my lab.

As a result, seeing or culturing organism(s) from a sterile site specimen obtained at autopsy cannot be conclusive evidence that that organism was there before the patient died.

Allowing for these factors, the findings of a)suppurative inflammation of the meninges, b) gram-negative bacilli on microscopy of the meninges and pleural space fluid, and c) Haemophilus influenzae DNA detected by PCR of the meninges, together with the clinical findings, are strongly suggestive of invasive H. influenzae infection with secondary pleural space infection and bacterial meningitis.

The fact that the cultures were negative in spite of the positive microscopy is likely to reflect inhibition of growth due to antimicrobial therapy administered in the ICU prior to the autopsy, and does not in any way detract from these findings.

The laboratory that performed the DNA testing were apparently unable to determine whether the H. influenzae was type B (ie the type that is essentially preventable by immunisation), but if I was a betting man I would say that it was.

tl; dr version: Ezekiel had invasive Haemophilus influenzae disease with secondary bacterial meningitis and pleural empyema, which, left untreated, resulted in raised intracranial pressure and ultimately brain death *prior* to the child receivng medical attention. If they were able to type the H. influenzae and it was type B, then this was almost certainly preventable with immunisation.

Shame on these parents, and shame on their ignorant enablers.

David Stefan has a new letter up. Among other things he's grateful to the Vaxxed team.

I hope you have gone to bed, and this isn't too disturbing way to start your day. David Stephan has another "letter" on his facebook page. He dedicates a large portion of it to pushing Vaxxed.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157050557675722&set=a.1015129…

@Dorit - That's pretty much exactly how I took your comment, don't worry. Of course you never get over it, but eventually you can seemingly act and appear as if you did - you can funtion again.

Dead babies are the glue that binds tightest.

If one was to be uncharitable (Who? Me? With my reputation?), then 4 years is plenty of time for some post-event "rationalisation"...

Either way the vaccination thing is pretty much not relevant: this is just plain child neglect and abuse (certainly in UK-ia, where those of us health bods working with children were required to report to children's services families who consistently missed appointments or seemed to be neglecting their child's health, so that an investigation under the relevant legislation could be carried out ans appropriate action taken).

I am pretty uncharitable and even with 4 years for coming to term, that Stephens had I still find it pretty disgusting how they are spinning the whole thing to paint themselves as victims of oppressive system.

Wheather you one still is in mourning or not, making a propaganda tool out of one's child dying is not something I can get behind.

What is the status of Del Bigtree and "the doctors" tv show? I would be terrified if he still had any involvement or had a way to use the show to push VAXXED any further.

It would be nice if a competent TV doctor--Sanjay Gupta maybe, spends a bit of time trying to debunk anti-vaccine movies like Vaxxed.

I hope the court takes into consideration a factor I consider much more important than punishing the Stephans.

And that's keeping them away from their remaining young children until they're older and stronger, and better able to fend off life-threatening neglect and pseudo-healthcare.

I'm reminded of a case of Munchausen's by proxy, where two babies died because mom (a nurse) wanted attention. She got a sentence in the range of ten years, (as I recall), enough time so the couple's remaining child/children could grow big enough to resist suffocation. 5 years might be enough to protect the Stephans' kids, but I doubt the parents will get more than a year or two, if any jail time at all his handed down.

Orac should've marked the video with an explicit warning about viewers taking their prescribed antihypertensive meds and keeping throwable objects out of reach. The parents (especially dad's) preening self-satisfaction and the fawning of the interviewers is nauseating.

@ Dangerous Bacon

And that’s keeping them away from their remaining young children until they’re older and stronger, and better able to fend off life-threatening neglect and pseudo-healthcare.

That's a real concern.
Unfortunately, a potential guardian is the Grandpa, a.k.a. the founder of the TrueHope supplement company.

Yep. There's no good option. The "least bad" option would be for the state to take the children and put them in a foster home.

Foster care is a terrible option. I'm a foster parent, and would never advocate for additional children to be removed over this - the trauma of losing your (even medically neglectful) family is real. I'd say whether or not they go to prison, the least bad option would be for the parents to lose medical rights and have medical guardianship of their children given to someone else until all kids are 18. But as long as they are feeding, clothing and housing them adequately, foster care has many other physical and psychological hazards that I wouldn't wish on any child.

I truly and sincerely hope the Stephans get to rot in jail for a good long time for their crimes against their son. That they could be so callous and uncaring regarding what had to have been an extremely painful and obviously miserable illness ( severe chest pain in respiratory distress from my emo couples with incapacitating headache and neck pain from meningitis) leading to death in this little boy speaks volumes for their arrogance and selfishness as well as no true concern or love for this child. Having seen and treated children with these illnesses including an unvaccinated one who died just like this little boy, I can tell you there's nothing subtle about the presenting symptoms for these illnesses. That Bigtree holds the Stephans up as he does tells me Big tree is an ignorant, fame-grabbing pig to boot perhaps in a class as vile as Andrew Wakefield himself.

Argh--"my emo" = empyema.

You know things are bad when foster care is the best option.

The biggest problem with jail is martyrdom I think. The additional exposure by the Vaxxed loons almost guarantees a lot of notoriety.

@ #15

I do not know the current status of the Stephan's surviving children as to guardianship nor relevant Canadian law, but I would think that the court could appoint a non-family member "health and welfare" guardian to ensure certain standards for their care. Of course, given their past record, I wouldn't deny the possibility of their crying about oppression by the state and fleeing

As someone from Utah who has to hear Chaffetz's primary re-election ads about "going after" all the leaders of "corrupt" government organizations.... he'll probably jump all over an excuse to go after the CDC.

@ Chris Hickie

That Bigtree holds the Stephans up as he does tells me Big tree is an ignorant, fame-grabbing pig to boot perhaps in a class as vile as Andrew Wakefield himself.

You are not the only one thinking that these two guys are siblings of a sort.
Quoting/paraphrasing a critic of "Vaxxed":
"a bad horror movie with Bigtree and Wakefield vying for spotlight time"

I wondered about what woo involved maple syrup -
my search results immediately revealed a Daily Beast article about its effectiveness against bacteria ( it cures everything!) and a natural cancer cure that used baking soda as well**

** including a 2013 article by Orac amongst the first entries. Fancy that!

The parents were found guilty. I wonder whether their public activities and attitude subsequent to the verdict are taken into account at the sentencing.

Does anyone know?

@ Chris Hickie:

Agreed about Bigtree.
As I mentioned elsewhere, he and Jaxen popped up around the time of VAXXED!'s release, clinging to Andy's coattails for a chance at fame .. actually notoriety.

More proof that David and Collet are narcissistic attention-whores.

YOU HAD ONE JOB. DON'T KILL YOUR KID.

All this trial was about is whether or not you did or didn't, could or could have. You were convicted and now you're being sentenced. That's it, you fools. Your son didn't have to die, Ezekiel should be alive right now, almost 6 years old and maybe riding a bike with no training wheels, propelling a scooter down the sidewalk, antagonizing his siblings, but you failed at your ONE JOB and now he's dead.

Pathetic, deluded, soulless people.

FWIW, David looks a lot more convinced than Collet.

Not once do they refer to him by name. They only say his name when they're asking letters for support.

They're asking for people in "jeans and white t-shirts" to show up at the courthouse in Lethbridge to advocate on their behalf.

Who advocated for Ezekiel?

I wonder whether their public activities and attitude subsequent to the verdict are taken into account at the sentencing.

It's been suggested that they may.

I'll shut up (temporarily) now, but Orac, I agree with DB on the warning, I screamed "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK" so loudly that I scared the dogs. This video is beyond the pale. I actually feel slightly sorry for Collet, I don't know why. David is just -- I don't even have the words.

An appropriate sentence for these sc*mbags is a weekend vacation in Churchill during polar bear season. Also, they would be given a tent, smeared with honey and given butter knives (for protection reasons).

I sound an internal scream whenever I read a line like, "treating him with herbs and maple syrup." No. No. No. No. No. As David Stephan says, "that’s not the case at all.". Drill this into your brains, people:

The Stephans were trying to cure Ezekiel with supplements produced by Truehope, the Stephan family 'natural health' scam!

Specifically, they were relying on the 'immune system booster' and 'natural antibacterial' Truehope OLE (Olive Leaf Extract). Had they taken the lad to a doctor, they would have been admitting their snake oil didn't work.

The US distributor associated with Truehope is, of course, in Utah, and the Stephan family are supposedly devout Mormans. So I wouldn't imagine Jason Chaffetz will be worried that his new pal Del hangs with remorseless child-killers. Hell, I bet the remorseless child-killer paterfamilias has funneled a fair chunk of cash to Chaffetz's campaign coffers. Really, does anyone think Tony Stephan is unknown at The Dietary Supplement Caucus? Hell, Tony Stephan could have gotten Del the invite with Chaffetz, as a quid-pro-quo for Del blowing the sympathy-and-outrage trumpet days before the judge delivers the verdict on his son and daughter-in-law?

[sarcasm] Nah. I'm sure the timing of Del's sit-down with Chaffetz occuring just before the scheduled reading of the Stephan verdict is nothing more than a coincidence. [/sarcasm]

Yes, it's about their reliance on Truehope, but the broader perspective is their rejection of the mainstream. Ezekiel was born at home, with an unregulated midwife in attendance. Collet had no antenatal care and Ezekiel had never once seen a medical doctor. It's a lifestyle choice, living off the grid, special snowflakes, etc. Their ideology won and Ezekiel lost.

I just wanted to say something about parental grief, about whether Ezekiel's parents loved him and whether they've been able to put their grief in a different place now that 4 years have elapsed since his death. I think the Stephans did love Ezekiel. Most parents, even bad ones, seem to love their kids. The difference is, for good parents, there is nothing you really love more than your kid.

Terrie Meynders is actually a RM (registered midwife). My mistake. I do wonder if Collet saw Meynders in an official capacity, since she is frequently referred to as nurse and family friend.

@ sadmar

I will admit, the way the maple syrup/fruit juice thing was reported, it sounded more like an attempt at feeding the poor child with sugar-rich liquids than a belief in the curing powers of maple syrup.
David Stephan did wax over the benefits of Truehope products to the police officer at the hospital, didn't he?

Now, when people say that Ezekiel only got maple syrup and fruit juices to treat his meningitis - in the sense that he got little else - that's not that far from the truth.

If my recollection of sentencing by a Crown Court suffices, subsequent to conviction behavior is taken into account, as such can be as damning as pre-conviction behavior and perhaps, even more so. After all, during trial, a defendant is on his or her best behavior, after, not so much so - they tend to fall off of their guard.
So, a conviction has told them that they were wrong, in no uncertain terms. When they insist that they are right, they reject the findings of the court and the court takes note of that rejection at sentencing.

For, let's review what requirements that their mythical ambulance would have to have to have successfully saved the life of this poor child.
A respirator, heart-lung machine available to support cardiovascular collapse, craniotomy surgical set (with neurosurgeon), antibiotics (and physician to administer them), stasis field, antigravity field and a real wizard, to provide magical life support.
While the assorted medical personnel do exist, as do the medical devices short of the science fiction stasis and antigravity, such are never carried on any standard ambulance on the planet. They're not on an ACLS ambulance either. Indeed, such are only included in the very same realm as antigravity, stasis and wizards - fiction.

Here's a hint for those without medical knowledge. If your child has a fever, stiff neck and photophobia (can't stand light), waiting for the child to stop breathing is a bad thing.

For the record, while Canadian courts still utilize the concept of "Queen on the Bench", with mild divergence from UK Crown Courts, the traditions remain quite similar in many ways. Hence, the use of the term Crown Court.

In defense of the EMTs:
(Disclaimer: I am a (former) EMT so I tend to sympathetic)

If they didn't check their equipment and really didn't all their airway supplies then shame on them. You do that every day, no matter what. The "can't be bothered to do check/clean/maintain your ambulance attitude" is all too common.

On the other hand, I think it's possible they made the (very likely clinically correct) decision not to intubate and the Stephans' are (surprisingly) being dishonest. Intubating a young kid, in the back of a moving ambulance while doing compressions is pretty much a nightmare scenario.

In most places, and consistent with the best available evidence, intubation is not the first choice for airway management in cardiac arrests. It would make more sense for a respiratory cause or a very long transport time but that was not the situation.

Given the details I know about the case, unless we were having significant difficulties ventilating with a bag and mask I would not have intubated in that situation.

Re: the maple syrup

Collet gave Ezekiel water mixed with maple syrup early on in his illness, when, after talking with Ms. Meynders, she thought he just had croup. The water-maple syrup mixture was to increase his fluid intake. It was not given to him when meningitis was suspected. That is one fact that people really need to get right.

Once meningitis was suspected (and Ms. Meynders told Collet that they should take him to a real doctor), Collet decided to go onto the internet to "research" meningitis. She decided to take on the role of doctor herself instead of consulting a real one. Convinced that doctors would just give Ezekiel antibiotics, she and David decided to give him "natural antibiotics" like garlic, even though garlic has no systemic antibiotic properties. They also gave him supplements like Truehope to "boost his immune system".

I've got more details over at Harpocrates Speaks, including portions of the findings of fact.

I'm sure that, in their own misguided way, David and Collet did love Ezekiel. However, they were incredibly medically ignorant and irrationally overconfident in their own knowledge and skills. All parents make mistakes and have lapses of judgment, but that is not an excuse for negligence.

Whatever punishment they receive, I hope that it also involves intensive education on proper responses. They have three other kids (8, 3, and 1 years old). If they cannot make appropriate medical decisions, then that right should be taken from them.

@Wzrd1
For what it's worth, critical care ambulances generally carry vents, antibiotics and in very rare cases patients can be transported on ECMO (though this is a huge ordeal that requires tons of equipment, personnel, multiple ambulances and a police escort). Some systems allow CC teams to respond to field calls but this would not have warranted that (they generally only respond for extended extrication).

@capnkrunch

Here's some info from the case regarding the final emergency run to the hospital. The Stephans were on the phone with 911 after Ezekiel stopped breathing. 911 instructed them on what to do, and because he started breathing again, David told the operator not to send an ambulance, that they would drive Ezekiel to the hospital themselves. Twenty minutes later, they finally got in their car to head to the hospital. Along the way, Ezekiel stopped breathing again, and they again called 911 and asked for an ambulance to meet them on the way. When EMS arrived, Ezekiel showed signs of being dead (no pulse/blood pressure, heart rate 0, not breathing, and the lowest possible Glascow Coma Score).

Then, from the findings of fact:

The emergency responders immediately started and performed continuous CPR on Ezekiel during transport to the Cardston hospital, but were unable to secure an airway for about 8 minutes, just before arrival at the hospital. They did then observe Ezekiel’s chest rise and fall. The ambulance had been de-stocked of endotracheal equipment which may have been of assistance in securing an airway.

So it does look like the ambulance was not properly stocked, but even if it had been, I'm not sure they could have saved the boy.

How interesting.

Something that appears to have vanished from their narrative is the event that triggered them to call 911 -- their son had stopped breathing. The mother was reportedly performing CPR when the ambulance arrived, and had been for some time. It wasn't even their first 911 call that day; he'd stopped breathing earlier, but they cancelled the ambulance the first time, saying they'd transport him themselves. Which eventually they did do, but he stopped breathing before they got there, so they started CPR and called 911.

So there are two things that have been omitted by them: first, that the child had already stopped breathing, and second, that the first medical transport they arranged was their own damn car, after they'd refused an ambulance earlier. So yeah, I completely blame the people operating the vehicle that picked him up from his house. Because those people are his parents, the people convicted of causing his death through medical neglect.

I gotta learn to read the comments before responding. :-P I see others have already commented on that. It's just really interesting to me that they're intentionally leaving out the fact that their son had already stopped breathing. They were happy to show their heroic efforts to perform CPR before, when it made it look like they were trying to save him, but now that it's clear he died before EMTs arrived, they've tossed that down the memory hole.

@ capnkrunch

As I pointed out in a previous thread, here is an article quoting one of the paramedics, and a link to a longer part of his testimony during the trial.

The paramedic is claiming he did know about the lack of proper tools and consumables; he had already requested more masks, but they had not been provided at the time of the emergency.

This article from CBC could be a comment : http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/sentencing-arguments-parents-todd… in response to some here, and notes the sentencing arguments are temporarily halted as there is now a claim of a falsified autopsy.

I read the article as the sentencing arguments were shortly interrupted and then resumed?

Ross Miles: "now a claim of a falsified autopsy."

From the article is was a claim from the mother. A quick Google reveals that it a claim that is now circulating in less than respectable websites (like Elizabeth Erin's HealthNutNews). With that level of evidence, it looks like the proceedings were resumed.

Pro-tip: argument from blatant assertion does not get you far in both science and a court room.

Oops... it is "Erin Elizabeth."

Dorit @ 46

Right, were temporally halted and have resumed according to the updated version.

The article does say that the hearing resumed. CBC frequently updates articles without any indication of of what has changed with the update.

A couple of points I find interesting:

Though there was an admission that the ambulance didn't have the appropriate size of bag valve mask or ET tube, the EMTs apparently tubed the boy adequately to accomplish ventilation. I have seen nothing from the defense (in popular media; I haven't see trial transcripts) to seriously support that the lack was contributory to Ezekiel's death.

David isn't going to be be called by the defense during the sentencing hearing. I very strongly suspect this is because the defense lawyer has recognized that he would be nothing but a liability, given his performances since the trial. (Collet's testimony at the hearing has certainly been of the" boo-hoo, poor me" class - see article at Ross's link.)

@ Chris

Agreed in science, blatant assertion gets one nowhere but in a courtroom, not always so sure. There was evidence given in the trial of the autopsy possibly being wrong.

Surprise, surprise! Collet Stephan is pulling a fast one at the Stephans' sentencing hearing by claiming that the autopsy report was falsified.

I wonder if the temporary halt was at the request of the defense lawyer - "Her lawyer, Shawn Buckley, said he had no idea she had planned to make such a statement." I can sort of picture Buckley cringing and hiding under furniture.

You are not the only one thinking that these two guys are siblings of a sort.
Quoting/paraphrasing a critic of “Vaxxed”:
“a bad horror movie with Bigtree and Wakefield vying for spotlight time”

Actually, from my perspective, Wakefield and Bigtree seem to have quite the bromance going.

I sound an internal scream whenever I read a line like, "treating him with herbs and maple syrup." No. No. No. No. No. As David Stephan says, "that’s not the case at all.". Drill this into your brains, people:

The Stephans were trying to cure Ezekiel with supplements produced by Truehope, the Stephan family 'natural health' scam!

Specifically, they were relying on the 'immune system booster' and 'natural antibacterial' Truehope OLE (Olive Leaf Extract). Had they taken the lad to a doctor, they would have been admitting their snake oil didn't work.

Of course, there is no reason that both can't be true at the same time. After all, David Stephan himself states in the video that they were treating Ezekiel with homeopathic remedies and herbal medicine.

Yes, it's about their reliance on Truehope, but the broader perspective is their rejection of the mainstream. Ezekiel was born at home, with an unregulated midwife in attendance. Collet had no antenatal care and Ezekiel had never once seen a medical doctor. It's a lifestyle choice, living off the grid, special snowflakes, etc. Their ideology won and Ezekiel lost.

Exactly. The parents' being in the thrall of Truehope was only one manifestation of their mystical, pseudoscientific world view that lead to Ezekiel's end.

"Agreed in science, blatant assertion gets one nowhere but in a courtroom, not always so sure."

I believe the hearing is before the judge only, which likely would reduce (or perhaps even invert) the impact of such an assertion.

I don't know how things necessarily work in Canadian Courtrooms, but I know that in the US, one is not allowed to present "new evidence" in a sentencing hearing.

Ross Miles: "There was evidence given in the trial of the autopsy possibly being wrong."

It is because medicine is hard and more nuanced than they expect. These guys live in a black and white world where no uncertainty is allowed.

“Agreed in science, blatant assertion gets one nowhere but in a courtroom, not always so sure.”

They have learned that evidence is required in the USA to get a claim compensated from the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Even for a table injury they need records showing that an event happened within a specified time period.

I believe the "falsified autopsy" notion originated with the Prayers for Ezekiel Facebook page, which posted a scanned copy of the autopsy report (which I included in my post) that has some sections highlighted.

Doug and Chris

It was a somewhat disgraced former Alberta coroner who said it was viral meningitis while the autopsy says bacterial.

I read most of the transcript sometime back when Health Canada took Truehope to court and the judge bought into Truehope assertions, to the point of mind altering, so judges are swayed. What stuck was the assertion of the judge that there were 6,000 people dependent upon Truehope for their very existence. Sorry do not have time to find a link, but it is on the internet now.

I will stay away from the U.S. court system vs Canadian as being off topic, but will say I have little respect for the Canadian and less for the American.

Fake autopsy? ...here we go again.

These idiots think they are the smartest people on the planet. Anti vaccidiots, anti medicine, anti science, they don't understand health and physiology but are too arrogant to admit it. Thus, a bunch of people who have no idea what they are looking at in an autopsy report see something they don't understand, google it, get a halfassed version (or a completely different scenario of that word) and claim that must be a lie.

Because saying "I don't know how this works" means admitting that they aren't the smartest people on earth.

From the CBC article linked upthread:

[The Stephans]treated [Ezekiel] with hot peppers, garlic, onions and horseradish

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over.

Granted that I am not an expert in "natural treatments", but I don't see why somebody would think these things are helpful for treating flu or croup in a toddler. Even a healthy kid that age would have trouble getting that stuff down. So would some healthy adults, for that matter--I like spicy food myself, but most people in the part of the US where I live do not.

@Todd W:

I can't comment at your place because of the limited number of options, but what's the deal with this one?

Why was an unproven testing method used to diagnose bacterial meningitis?

I'm only getting "non-clinical" from the autopsy report. So... what was it? Nested PCR?

@Narad

I should probably switch over to Wordpress or something. Just too lazy to do it.

Unfortunately, I haven't found out what method was used, other than microscopy. (IIRC, don't recall at the moment where I saw that).

Ross Miles: "I will stay away from the U.S. court system vs Canadian as being off topic, but will say I have little respect for the Canadian and less for the American."

No problem. Like all organizations they are made up of mere humans, none of them alike. It is due to the universality of variation. (note: like most who live in a state that borders Canada, we have friends and family north of the border, so we get to hear both the good and bad)

The American National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (US Vaccine Court) has very very lenient requirements for evidence, but the anti-vaxers now hate it. They expected to walk in, tell a story and get handed a check. It did not work out that way, very few were awarded.

When people say that Ezekiel only got maple syrup and fruit juices to treat his meningitis – in the sense that he got little else – that’s not that far from the truth.

Sorry Hellanthus, but that's VERY far from the truth. The 'truth' question at hand for the sentencing isn't the actual efficacy of the treatments the Stephans gave their son as known to science, it's what they thought they doing to treat Ezekiel, and why. Consider three narratives explaining that:

1) The 'dominant media narrative' typified by 'maple syrup and fruit juice for meningitis'. This paints the Stephans as criminally naive innocents. (oxymoron intended) The idea here is that they believe a serious illness can be cured by a home brew of common generic grocery products, none of which, of course, are advertised as having medicinal value.

2) David Stephan's narrative; He's saying the media narrative is ridiculous, and asserting that he and and his wife were treating Ezekiel with established remedies 'known to work' by "tens of thousands of people". His claim is that they did indeed do "due diligence" by employing a spectrum of such 'believed to be proven' remedies, rather than just one. However he casts all those treatments in broad generic terms, e.g. "different homeopathic remedies, different herbal remedies," in an attempt to invoke any and all beliefs in Alt-Med efficacy. The reference to homeopathy strikes me as a disingenuous appeal to popularity, since the remedies the Stephans gave Ezekiel were all herbals and/or vitamin compounds, not homeopathic dilutions.

I consider both of these narratives false, as they obscure the key truth I noted above: the Stephans' primary treatments for their son were products sold by their family business, marketed specifically (and fraudulently) as cures for serious illness, and sold at outrageous profit which is the sole source of income for David and Collet Stephan. Thus, the 'true' narrative:
3) The Stephans treatment of their sons meningitis was indistinguishable and inseperable from the family's supplement scam, which has already been implicated in a series of horrors (murder, criminal assault...) as well as the outrageous bilking of any number of vulnerable sick people. The Truth here is that David and Collet Stephan had a powerful financial motive for how they did and didn't act in response to Ezekiel's condition.
_________

Before anyone gets too sympathetic for David Stephan's loss, consider this:

After customers buy a product from the Truehope website, they receive a 'follow up' phone call from the Truehope 'support team', which is actually a bunch of product salesfolk in a telemarketing boiler room pretending to medical knowledge. The 'support specialist' then requests all sorts of medical information for the customer - diagnosis, history, current meds. "Our support staff can't help you if they don't have a full picture," one hesitant customer was told. The 'help' that comes with the 'full picture', not surprisingly is the 'support specialist' telling the customer they need to buy various other costly Truehope products for whatever-they-bought-first to work properly for their condition, including the scare tactic of avoiding supposed 'drug interactions'. By this method, Truehope racks up huge bills for patients with serious psych problems they convince to go off their meds.

One such customer was a young schizophrenia patient from Ottowa named Caro Overdulve. From The Ottowa Citizen [condensed]

Overdulve told his parents his prescription anti-psychotics were making him gain weight and were giving him insomnia. The doctors weren't listening, he complained. He paid for the first few months of Empowerplus himself, selling his car to pay. His parents, willing to try anything that might help their son, agreed to foot the rest of the bill, arranging for automatic credit card deductions. Over four months, they were billed six times, for a total of more than $1,600. The next month, they were charged $1,248 for an additional six-month supply of the pills.

When they went to visit their son, they found his townhouse filthy. Pots with the charred remains of food were piled in the sink. Drinking glasses and mugs containing liquids were floating islands of mold. Caro was taking 32 capsules a day, eating them by the handful, often missing his mouth, scattering capsules everywhere. He had racked up $600 on his phone bill for calls to a Truehope support line, even though the center had a toll-free line. The Overdulves refused to buy more of the supplements. And their son slipped away from them.

Over the next year, he moved through a string of apartments, rooming houses and homeless shelters, and was hospitalized three times. He accused his father of working for the Mafia and threatened his newborn nephew. Eventually, he was charged with assault, mischief and criminal harassment after a tenant in his building reported he had been struck and obscenities were carved into his door.

Truehope has driven a wedge between the Overdulves and their son, said Mrs. Overdulve. "He listens to them, not to us. There is no getting beyond it," she said. "Anyone who knew him before doesn't even recognize him now."

So, drill this into your brains, folks: David Stephan is the Director of Marketing at Truehope. Guiding that team of 'support specialists' in bleeding the Caro Overdulves of the world is HIS JOB, how he spends his days at work.
________
* apologies for my brain-fart in referring to a 'verdict' in #33; I meant the sentencing hearing, duh...

There is no reason that both can’t be true at the same time. After all, David Stephan himself states in the video that they were treating Ezekiel with homeopathic remedies and herbal medicine.

Of course he does. He's dancing the bullshit dance. Taking all his versions of the tale into account, it's clear they were relying primarily on Truehope products initially, and then added additional herbal nostrums as "due diligence" when Ezekiel took turns for the worse. There are echoes of legalese
here that lead me to suspect Tony Stephan counseled his son to add treatments to deflect blame from falling on Truehope alone after Meynders alerted the family to the possibility of meningitis.

Yes, it’s about their reliance on Truehope, but the broader perspective is their rejection of the mainstream.

Nope. That has it backwards. The broader rejection of the mainstream stems from their reliance on Truehope – as their sole source of income, the scam that puts the food on their table, the spiffy roof over their head, a new car or two in the garage. David Stephan is a grifter, born to grifter parents, raised in the family grift along with his grifter brothers and sisters. Ezeziel was probably bound for the grift, too, before he got sacrificed to it.

The parents’ being in the thrall of Truehope was only one manifestation of their mystical, pseudoscientific world view that lead to Ezekiel’s end.

They weren't IN 'the thrall'. They WERE 'the thrall'. Generating, perpetuating and obscene profiteering on the thrall is David Stephan's 9-to-5. He IS Truehope. It's not a manifestation in the Stephans. It's the source.

If you want an example of someone in the thrall of Truehope, try Caro Overduve and Jordan Ramsay.

if you want to make a comment about ideology's role in Ezekiel's death, it helps to know some ideology theory. The "mystical, pseudoscientific world view" of 'natural health' in general and supplement cures more specifically only has force when held by a certain critical mass of people who reproduce it and spread it, such that it can operate as an alternative reality appearing as 'just so' or 'common sense' within some socio-cultural subgroup. So, yeah, that ideology did indeed lead to Ezekiel's end, as it existed long before Tony Stephan began his Pig Pill racket, creating the conditions that made that grift possible, and so lucrative that David and Collet sold their minds and souls to its terms.

There is no reason that both can’t be true at the same time. After all, David Stephan himself states in the video that they were treating Ezekiel with homeopathic remedies and herbal medicine.

Of course he does. He's dancing the bullsh!t dance. Taking all his versions of the tale into account, it's clear they were relying primarily on Truehope products initially, and then added additional herbal nostrums as "due diligence" when Ezekiel took turns for the worse. There are echoes of legalese here that lead me to suspect Tony Stephan counseled his son to add treatments to deflect blame from falling on Truehope alone after Meynders alerted the family to the possibility of meningitis.

Yes, it’s about their reliance on Truehope, but the broader perspective is their rejection of the mainstream.

The parents’ being in the thrall of Truehope was only one manifestation of their mystical, pseudoscientific world view that lead to Ezekiel’s end.

If you want an example of someone in the thrall of Truehope, try Caro Overduve and Jordan Ramsay.

Ross, I take your point in the fallibility of judges, particularly with regard to matters of science. I suspect, without good basis for doing so, that in this case the judge is likely to be disinclined to accept an assertion that an autopsy was "falsified", as something I see a quite distinct from "erroneous" - the former a deliberate attempt to deceive by someone who is an officer of the court, or very close there-to.

Again, as with the notion of the mask/intubation issue, I would have expected the defense lawyer to hammer the point very hard at trial if there was reason to believe it would help the defense case. As my brother says, drawing a parallel between trials and internet trolls, testimony not challenged tends to be accepted as true.

Would any of our path' experts care to explain this phase from the autopsy report "organizing acute suppurative neutrophilic inflammation of the meninges"? I understand it in general, but I don't know what "organizing" means here. Could this result from viral infection?

Regardless of whether the meningitis was bacterial or viral, had the little guy's parents acted even a couple of hours sooner, he could have been in intensive care in the Alberta Children's Hospital in Calgary before the clock marked the time at which he first stopped breathing. Instead, by the time he got there it was too late, and his remains made the short trip just down the hill to Medical Examiner's building.

@ Sadmar

Before anyone gets too sympathetic for David Stephan’s loss

Oh, I was not going to be any sympathetic for the parents.
And I see your point about the TrueHope.

@ Eric Lund

Granted that I am not an expert in “natural treatments”, but I don’t see why somebody would think these things are helpful for treating flu or croup in a toddler.

Since at least a decade, garlic is currently very popular at being a supposed cure for the flu. I guess a similar narrative could be found for the others. Garlic, onions and other plants with a strong taste always had some good PR as folks' herbal remedies.
Heck, physicians treating the plague victims during the Renaissance were putting cloves and other flagrant herbs in the nose of their weird "gas mask" to protect themselves.

The Stephans didn't invent this cure by spices all by themselves. There are plenty of other people who would think it's a good idea. Not that would actually make it a good idea.

Maybe that's another thing we should keep in mind: the Stephans are not outliers in the alt-med world. They are espousing all the mainstream ideas of the average science denier.
Stephan may have been telling the true when saying that, in North America, "tens of thousands of people do" treat their children with similar mixes of snake oil pills and homemade herbal concoctions.

"Since at least a decade, garlic is currently very popular at being a supposed cure for the flu. I guess a similar narrative could be found for the others. Garlic, onions and other plants with a strong taste always had some good PR as folks’ herbal remedies."

Well, garlic, onions and assorted other aromatics are an effective treatment for a flavorless meal. Some were even documented for being antimicrobial in food items, preserving the food for a bit longer than it would have otherwise have lasted, in an era before refrigeration. As an enteric cure for disease, not so much at all.
Still, a half of a cigarette eaten can help stun some worms, permitting them to pass, if one didn't have *real* medication available. That would allow one to complete a mission, then one could receive definitive treatment.*

"Heck, physicians treating the plague victims during the Renaissance were putting cloves and other flagrant herbs in the nose of their weird “gas mask” to protect themselves."

That was courtesy of miasma theory, the theory that malodorous things transmitted disease. As an anti-infection palliative, utterly ineffective. As a method of avoiding the odor to some decree from purifying wounds, meh, maybe it might have helped a little.

*Special Forces Medical Handbook

Would you guess the members of The Dietary Supplement Caucus would be familiar with The Natural Health Products Protection Association – a non profit with "the sole object" of "protecting access to Natural Health Products and Dietary Supplements" by "identifying and responding to threats facing the Natural Health Product and Dietary Supplement industry"?

Like maybe the NHPPA would lobby that caucus, and the caucus would be friendl to the NHPPA?

The President of the The Natural Health Products Protection Association is one Shawn Buckley, LLB, Collet and David's defense lawyer, and Truehope's long-time legal mouthpiece in it's long history of troubles with lawsuits and the Canadian authorities.

And here, courtesy of the Calgary Sun live feed (http://tinyurl.com/j5z2t9h), is what Attorney Buckley is doing this afternoon:

Crown in the meningitis death intends to show a video as part of its argument of an interview between the Stephans and the makers of Vaxxed.
In the interview the Stephans say they were charged because they didn't vaccinate their children including Ezekiel.
The producers of Vaxxed question why the Stephans were charged saying the court process was part of an "incredible, lying machine.
Defence now objecting to the Crown playing a video interview David Stephan gave to a anti-vax documentary maker.
Defence desperate to quash video of David&Collet #stephan outside #yyc theatre blaming ambulance for son's death. Could impact sentence.
Prosecutor Clayton Giles says the Stephans gave the interview. "They can not be surprised by the content of an interview they provided."
Defence lawyer now making excuses about his client's lack of remorse caught on video. He's blaming the media too. All the media's fault.
Apparently all of the problems facing the Stephans can be tied to - ta da - the media. Shawn Buckley arguing against anti-vax interview.
Justice Jerke going to hear anti-vax interview. "We will see how relevant in due course".
Defence fails. Judge says play TouTube video, showing #stephan blaming ambulance for son's death. Airing in court now.
Judge gives guilty parents a withering stare as videographer calls court/media a "lying machine" on video willingly made by #stephan
Words now haunting David #stephan as Crown says it shows he lacks remorse and wasn't genuine in trial. Pre-sentence video rant=bad idea.

Nope. That has it backwards. The broader rejection of the mainstream stems from their reliance on Truehope – as their sole source of income, the scam that puts the food on their table, the spiffy roof over their head, a new car or two in the garage. David Stephan is a grifter, born to grifter parents, raised in the family grift along with his grifter brothers and sisters. Ezeziel was probably bound for the grift, too, before he got sacrificed to it.

Nope. Not buying it. The very reason Truehope exists in the first place is due to a broader rejection of mainstream medicine based on a pseudoscientific mystical world view.

They weren’t IN ‘the thrall’. They WERE ‘the thrall’. Generating, perpetuating and obscene profiteering on the thrall is David Stephan’s 9-to-5. He IS Truehope. It’s not a manifestation in the Stephans. It’s the source.

Again, there's no reason both can't be true at the same time. Stephan could be the "thrall" and be in the thrall at the same time. At the very minimum, judging by the looks on his wife's face, she was/is in the thrall. It's all very cult-like. Consider, for instance, Scientology. David Miscavige is arguably a believer, but also a grifter who uses Scientology for profit and control. Slightly lower down the food chain, Tom Cruise is a high ranking member of the church and clearly a believer, one of the duped. However, his status is such that he gains considerable perks from his belief. I'd tend to liken Tony Stephan to Miscavige and David Stephan to Tom Cruise.

And here, courtesy of the Calgary Sun live feed (http://tinyurl.com/j5z2t9h), is what Attorney Buckley is doing this afternoon:

Yes, it was very stupid of David Stephan to allow himself to be used by the VAXXED crew this way. Now he and his wife are likely to pay the price, while Del Bigtree can more effectively paint them as martyrs to the cause and portray any harsher sentence they get as potentially being due to their having spoken out.

Would any of our path’ experts care to explain this phase from the autopsy report “organizing...."

IANOOOPE. "With resolution of [bacterial] meningitis, cells disappear in the order in which they appeared." (I think this should start on the first of the three relevant pages.)

Neutrophils, as first responders, peak early in viral (aseptic) meningitis. I don't know that they really have a plausible nonbacterial explanation for why they're hanging out on the corner of Meninges and Purulence.

Narad @ 77:

There is no plausible explanation for neutrophilic inflammation, gram-negative bacilli on microscopy, and H. influenza DNA detection by PCR, other than bacterial meningitis caused by H. influenzae.

At least not in the real world.

Re: validity of H. influenzae detection by PCR: the autopsy report doesn't go into details, but I presume that the laboratory they send their specimens to hasn't validated a PCR test for H. influenzae detection in CSF collected before or after death. My lab has, but we see so few cases of HiB meningitis nowadays (due to the spectacular impact of immunisation) that it it hard to keep the test validated...

""The moral culpability in this matter is at the extreme low level," said Buckley." (Defence lawyer)

What?
These two careless parents made decisions over many years which all added up to a risk which took the life of their child.
They chose to not vaccinate their child, they chose to deny their child access to medical care, and the child died as a result.
They now blame the ambulance and suggest there was nothing wrong with their child.
...and the judge looks like accepting the argument that the loss of the child is a "punishment" that is presumably supposed to mitigate against the sentence that will be imposed.

There is no plausible explanation for neutrophilic inflammation, gram-negative bacilli on microscopy, and H. influenza DNA detection by PCR, other than bacterial meningitis caused by H. influenzae.

I was working from scratch, man. I only got to "trying to make an abscess" a little while ago.

^ Sorry, I failed to add that the whole point was trying to figure out what "organizing" meant in this context as a result of doug's comment.

Stephan could be the “thrall” and be in the thrall at the same time

The only thing I can think of now is the Gamesters of Triskelion.

Narad,

In this context, the term "organizing" refers to the grouping of neutrophils together; its a feature of acute bacterial inflammation.

Apologies for the haughty tone of my previous response, it was more directed at idiotic naysayers who have suggested that the findings were not in keeping with acute bacterial meningitis.

As a clinician and a pathologist, Ezekiel's case is a "slam dunk" in terms of diagnosis; you rarely get a more classical presentation and characteristic pathologic findings than this.

Apologies for the haughty tone of my previous response

Oh, I didn't grep any tone one way or the other. The whole first-principles deal is just the residue of Robert Maynard Hutchins, which can be a real pain in the ass as a default.

The interview Del did of the Stephans was shown in court. For the prosecution. It helped to show the Stephans lacked remorse. Kaboom! Bigtree you are such a numptey.

At least Bigotree and his pals aren't offering anything useful to the Stephans, they're just sending them prayers and love.

And the video - which is indeed rage-inducing, ends with Polly saying "Everyone loves you". Um... no. I don't love you, David, I think you're a (censored).

His statement about parents needing to worry about whether or not they can be prosecuted for a decision they make is ludicrous. All parents have always been able to be prosecuted for the decisions they make if they are of a poor enough quality - that is the whole point. There is a minimum standard you need to meet as a parent, that standard was not invented 4 years ago because of Ezekiel's death, it is long-standing - AND YOU BOTH FAILED TO MEET THAT STANDARD. FFS.

Sorry for yelling.

Who made the first 911 call? If Colette had suspected how ill the child was, would she have dared to even disagree with David, let alone act against his wishes?

“Heck, physicians treating the plague victims during the Renaissance were putting cloves and other flagrant herbs in the nose of their weird “gas mask” to protect themselves.”

That was courtesy of miasma theory, the theory that malodorous things transmitted disease. As an anti-infection palliative, utterly ineffective.

Weirdly enough, not ineffective. Oil of cloves kills the plague bacillus. So right, albeit for completely the wrong reasons.

Oil of cloves kills the plague bacillus. So right, albeit for completely the wrong reasons.

Well, oil from lavender and a few other plants do have antibacterial/antifungal properties - so one can imagine that the idea of using these plants, or garlic, has originated from some observation of a real phenomenon. Or, in the case of the plague, after a few centuries of trial and error, people managed to catch a few effective things.

Now, there are all the issues of pharmacology. Are the active substances concentrated enough in a homemade herbal remedies to be effective bacterial killers, are these substances toxic at these effective concentrations for the patient, is it possible to achieve these effective concentrations inside the human body (i.e. can we accumulate them faster than they are eliminated)?

tl;dr: a good number of natural substances have antibacterial activity in a petri dish or as a topical application (e.g. antiseptic cream). But the number of these which can be safely ingested/injected and remain useful is much smaller.
Especially for treating an infection in places which are difficult to reach, like the meninges.

@Helianthus, as I mentioned, garlic was a known food preservative in the pre-refrigeration era. Those hot peppers we enjoy as a spice actually had some mild effect against some intestinal worms. Thyme has antibiotic properties and hence, was a food preservative alongside garlic.
But, once one digests those spices, one gains no therapeutic value from them beyond nutritional gains and perhaps, antioxidants.
Chamomile tea has actually been studied and shown to have mild to moderate antihypertensive properties, but nowhere as effective as current antihypertensive medications.
Much of our early 20th century medicine came from herbal sources, where we purified and standardized dosages and patients benefited and more importantly, harm was reduced.

Here's a question for the herbal types, you've had a heart attack and you need digitalis, would you want foxglove tea, with a random dosage or digoxin, precisely prescribed?
Personally, I'll go with precision. I know what I'm getting, rather than risking digoxin toxicity or underdosage.
Of course, a cardiologist would stick with digoxin or one of the more modernized analogs and I'd stick with what the specialist wants to use. That's especially true, as I show "Salvador Dali's mustache" in my usual ECG pattern, courtesy of damage caused by a heat stroke. That sends the ECG analysis software into a tizzy complaining of "Digitalis effect", yeah, I'll stick with the professional and precision dosing. :)

@Helianthus

Yeah, ADME issues kinda get in the way of most natural "remedies". Scott Gavura had a great talk about it at this year's NECSS.

@ mho

Who made the first 911 call?

I believe it was the dad who did both calls. An news article covering the trials had the audio files on its webpage (I cannot find it again).

If Colette had suspected how ill the child was, would she have dared to even disagree with David, let alone act against his wishes?

Now we are plainly speculating.
Although calling on the advice of a friend nurse and then on a ND would indicate that both parents knew that something was not right with Ezekiel. Plus, the reported signs were hard to miss. So there is no "suspecting", just "denial".
Now, as for either of the Stephans being able of an independent thought...

Um, I just realized I was about to be confusing Collet and the other idiot of a doula who let her three children get pertussis one after another, while still visiting pregnant women.

If Colette had suspected how ill the child was, would she have dared to even disagree with David, let alone act against his wishes?

We don't know, but it's sure a good question. Also, If David had suspected how ill his son was, would he have dared to even take issue with Tony, let alone act against Tony's wishes?

We do know that David was away at work when Collet got Terrie Meynders to come over, received the suspicion of meningitis, performed the Brudzinski tests, and called Lethbridge Naturopathic to seek an additional immune system booster.

The call to Vataman is especially suggestive of going off the Truehope reservation. Tony Stephan is supposed to be THE supplement expert, Truehope OLE is supposed be the be-all-and-end-all of immune boosters, and the Truehope Support Team is supposed to be THE expert in suggesting more supplements to supplement Truehope supplements. In essence, Collet was out for 'second opinions', and she didn't tell David about them until AFTER she got them.

We might also wonder whether David would even have bothered to drive into Lethbridge to pick up the Blast if the couple hadn't had to visit their attorney to sign purchase documents, and do a shopping run at Superstore.

I followed some links to the media stories about the Stephans and noticed some other "failing to provide the necessaries" stories about children on the wrong side of ideology: a mother who treated her kid's staph infection 'holistically' and he died, and Seventh Day Adventist parents who killed their child with a restrictive diet.
I can only guess that you see what you want to see and denial is a powerful force for harm.

Sentencing expected at 2pm Mountain Time today.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/parents-toddler-died-meningitis-s…

Collet said her son's death was the "most horrible thing that ever happened" in her life

You know what, Collet? Your son's death wasn't the worst thing that ever happened I your son's Ezekiel's short life--that would have been the two weeks he suffered with his condition rapidly deteriorating while you and your husband did nothing.

You are not the victim here.

Related to that, I think this article, putting Ezekiel back in the center, did a good job.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/23/ezekiel-stephan-was-his-name

That's an awesome article, Dorit. Thank you. Yes, Ezekiel needs to be returned as the focus of this trial. The fact that he suffered horribly and died needlessly.

What baffles me in their defense that the mother researched menengitis online and thought he had viral meningitis, so he could be treated at home. So I googled it. It shows that, yes, most viral meningitis is with the usual rest and pain killers. It also quickly shows that the only way to tell the difference is by medical testing, viral is generally not severe, but still can be, and whichever type you turn out to have, really, go see a docotr immediately. It says something when even their defense of their actions highlights their arrogance.

Orac:

There IS a reason both can't be true at the same time. Check the OED. "In the thrall" means a relationship of subservience and exploitation, having come from an old German word for a medieval serf. It's not about belief. You say an abused woman is in thrall of her husband. You don't say slave-owners were in the thrall of racism.

Anyway, I think it's quite possible Collet was more "in the thrall" than of the thrall. For example, I've thought the calls to Meynders and Vataman might have been her going 'off the reservation' out of concern the OLE wasn't doing the job, since David wasn't present.

In taking David Stephan as "in the thrall" you're not considering that as Director of Marketing he's intimately involved in the day to day business of working over customers wirh schizophrenia and bipolar disorder for thousands of dollars of worthless pills as replacements for, not supplements to, anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers.

At the point Caro Overdulve's psychosis was so bad he was throwing handfuls of Truehope pills at his mouth so haphazardly he was scattering misses all over the floor, the Truehope Support line kept leading him on to the tune of $600 in phone charges on top of whatever he could scrounge for the pills. Decent human beings would have told anyone in his condition to see a doctor about getting back on their meds. Truehope didn't even tell him they had a toll-free number.

The telephone sales routine comes from David's department at Truehope. It's his job. What he does. Who he is. He's in charge of MARKETING, and with his son lying brain dead in the hospital, David was feeding the OLE sales pitch to the RCMP as 'evidence' of providing proper care for for the toddler, extolling OLE as one of "the most powerful and most well-recognized" remedies, "very well-recognized for being anti-fungal, anti-viral, all that stuff".

Scientology's the wrong analogy. Truehope is to SMI as HHI is to cancer. David Stephan is just a JV Brian Clement. Clement started at HHI as a 'client' back when Ann Wigmore was running the show, so he's a 'believer'. But that hardly puts him on the same plane as Makayla Sault. What defines grifters like Clement, Burzynski, and the Stephans is that the belief and the grift are so intermingled that even they can't separate them. But they're 'the thrall' because they're gaining power, prestige, and money-money-money from exploiting the rubes in their thrall.
___________

Do you really think for one minute Tony Stephan and Shawn Buckley were out of the loop on the meeting with Bigtree? This isn't just Del using David and Collet Stephans, it's Tony Stephan and Shawn Buckley using the anti-vax warriors to create a face-saving narrative that can propel Truehope past the verdict. The Crown was just out to get these "caring:. "attentive", "responsible", "best parents ever" because they were 'health freedom' activist vax resistors, donchaknow.

Meetthestephans.com (author unidentified, but clearly associated with the family) blares "David was profiled and targeted by the government of Canada before Ezekiel died" and puts forth a Gamondes-grade conspiracy theory that the ME falsified Ezekiel's autopsy, and the prosecution knowingly buried X-Ray evidence that would have proved 'Zeke' only had viral meningitis and his death was solely due to the EMTs having the wrong equipment. See, it's all a high-level cover-up to shield the Big Medicine murderers, and shift the blame onto the true healers, lest they tip over Big Pharma's illegitimate apple cart.

It was very stupid smart of David Tony Stephan to allow himself arrange for his family to be used by the VAXXED crew this way. Now [David and Collet] are likely to pay the price, while Del Bigtree Tony's shills can more effectively paint them as martyrs to the cause and portray any harsher sentence they get as potentially being due to their having spoken out.

FTFY.

"The interview Del did of the Stephans was shown in court. For the prosecution. It helped to show the Stephans lacked remorse. Kaboom! Bigtree you are such a numptey."

I think he did it to exploit them, not support them. Should they get a harsh sentence he will use them again by labeling them as martyrs to the cause. That is, his actions are more likely evil than foolish. Just like AW, his new BFF.

Given that the judge has already said that the prosecution's recommendation for a 3.5-4 year sentence is way past his thinking on the issue, don't expect a "harsh" sentence.

Although supporters would view anything more than a pat on the back and an apology from authorities as harsh.

@ Terrie

What baffles me in their defense that the mother researched menengitis online and thought he had viral meningitis, so he could be treated at home.

I have troubles wrapping my brain around this point, too.
Virus or bacteria, Ezekiel still suffered an event requiring an emergency ambulance to be called.

It's like the alt-med people are expecting mainstream medicine to make miracles.
I cannot decide if it's a ploy - putting expectations so high that, of course, real doctors will never meet them; or if their vision of medicine is more akin to white magic, with a good swath of religious-like faith.
It could be both, really.

And then I realize, in this case, it's simply grasping at straws to shift blame.
"You were wrong, it was viral, not bacterial, so there!"
Since no mainstream doctor had a chance to look at Ezekiel before his death, and thus any mistake still rest on the Stephans' lap, that's a very childish position, really.

@Helianthus

Yep, that's something else I noted. Pretty much every mainstream medical site that discusses meningitis notes that you should at the very least call a doctor if there are symptoms of meningitis, regardless of viral or bacterial. Granted, she said that she also looked at "natural" medicine sites. No doubt some of those had recommendations for how to treat it oneself without going to the doctor.

Watching Bill Graveland's live tweets of the sentencing right now.

@ mho #87

Found the article with the two calls to 911 from David Stephan.

3 months for mom, 4 for dad

3 months at home that is. The sentences are pathetic, and the judge gave her far to much credit for her crocodile tears so late in the day.

"months"?

Oh, well, better than nothing, I guess.
And there is at least 2 years probation for each.

@doug #106

Just to clarify your comment:

I understand that the sentence was 3 months house arrest for Collet and 4 months jail plus 2 months probation for David.

So, how many more children do they have left to kill, I mean neglect?

I seem to recall a similar kid gloves conviction in the US - right until a second child died the same way from a vaccine preventable infection.
The sentence was more in accordance with the actual severity of the crime and the children were removed from the household for good.

Collet gets her time as house arrest. David will go to jail.

Sorry, that should be 2 years probation not months. It sounds like they both got 2 years probation after they serve their house arrest/jail time.

It is 2 years probation, not months, for both after the 3 and 4 month sentences.

David got the harsher sentence for lack of remorse, with the Judge citing the Bigtree video.

"Collet must take her other three children to a public health nurse every three months. 240 hrs of community service required." https://twitter.com/ValFortney/status/746458171493883905

From Val Fortney's feed:

Judge: "Greater deterrence of Mr. Stephan is required." David's comments were more focused on consequences to himself than remorse. "Mr. Stephan loved his son" but still won't take responsibility for his actions in 2012. criticizing David Stephan's appearance on anti-vaxxer video. "The trial was not about vaccination." David Stephan's comments on video, blaming the ambulance for the child's death "demonstrates that Mr. Stephan trivializes Ezekiel's condition"; a "deflection of responsibility from him to others."
And it shows a continued indifference to the plight of the victim's condition at the time of the offence. David Stephan has shown no remorse, which demonstrates a higher degree of moral culpability.

In taking David Stephan as "in the thrall" you're not considering that as Director of Marketing he's intimately involved in the day to day business of working over customers wirh schizophrenia and bipolar disorder for thousands of dollars of worthless pills as replacements for, not supplements to, anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers.

So what? High ranking Scientology auditors are intimately involved in the day to day business of working over marks wirh schizophrenia and bipolar disorder for tens of thousands of dollars of worthless e-meter measurements and auditing as replacements for, not supplements to, anti-psychotics and mood stabilizers. Are you saying these auditors are not in the thrall of Scientology?

And, no, Scientology is a spot-on analogy, as it's a religion formed by a con man where the believers are both the con men and the conned.

new article at CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-meningitis-trial-sente…
I expect there will be updates to it in the next few hours.

“The interview Del did of the Stephans was shown in court. For the prosecution. It helped to show the Stephans lacked remorse. Kaboom! Bigtree you are such a numptey.”

I think he did it to exploit them, not support them. Should they get a harsh sentence he will use them again by labeling them as martyrs to the cause. That is, his actions are more likely evil than foolish. Just like AW, his new BFF.

Exactly. I can't prove it, but I'd be willing to bet that David Stephan wouldn't have gotten any jail time at all (like his wife), just house arrest (like his wife) or less, if it hadn't been for that video, which was shown in court. It was extremely foolish of David and Collet Stephan to allow themselves to be used by Bigtree that way mere days before their sentencing hearing.

David got the harsher sentence for lack of remorse, with the Judge citing the Bigtree video.

Yes, it was indeed incredibly stupid of David Stephan to have let Bigtree and Tommey shoot that video.

Orac: "It was extremely foolish of David and Collet Stephan to allow themselves to be used by Bigtree that way mere days before their sentencing hearing."

Certainly did not help. From yesterday's sentencing hearing twitter feed:

@SUNMichaelPlatt
Words now haunting David #stephan as Crown says it shows he lacks remorse and wasn't genuine in trial. Pre-sentence video rant=bad idea.
3:23 PM - 23 Jun 2016
•
Michael Platt
@SUNMichaelPlatt
Trivializing son's illness in video speaks to lack of #stephan remorse says crown. Pretty sure defence lawyer wishes he'd had muzzles.
3:27 PM - 23 Jun 2016

The judge also cited the difference between Collet and David's actions in support of the different sentences. Fortney:

Judge: but there were significant differences in their actions. Collet did research on Internet, called nurse friend.: David didn't do research, he decided to give additional supplements, took no real action when E had irregular breathing. "Mr. Stephan was clearly more willfully blind" than Collet Stephan. His moral culpability is greater.

Yes, the Scientology auditors can be said to be "in the thrall", just as the Truehope support staffers (all former/current customer believers, supposedly) can be said to be "in the thrall". David Stephan isn't "in the thrall" because the money's going into his bank account. He's the Master, not the serf.

Unless you go with David as Miscavidge and Tony as L. Ron. Then maybe say he's both. Thrall' would be the wrong term, per proper usage, but you could make the point with other language. But then you'd have to acknowledge that David wasn't acting on his own in some "stupid" way in talking to Bigtree, but just having his strings pulled by Tony and Shawn Buckley. Or figure that David is smart enough to understand Truehope's profits are more important to his self-interest than a short jail term.

From Truehope.com;

If you or your child suffer from autism and you want to address the cause effectively rather than "cover up" the symptoms with medication, Truehope EMPowerplus Advanced™ can help. Made up of 36 clinically proven vitamins, minerals, amino acids and anti-oxidants, Truehope's EMPowerplus Advanced™ could help with your autism. Extensive independent research shows that when the body and brain are provided with the essential nutrients found in EMPowerplus Advanced™, they are able to function properly—often negating the signs and symptoms of autism. Don't be fooled by imitations—only Truehope EMPowerplus Advanced™ contains these nutrients in a microground form so the body can easily absorb them into the bloodstream. Since the symptoms of autism are caused by chemical issues in the brain, why treat your autism with more chemicals? Try EMPowerplus Advanced™ today to see for yourself how nature can work in harmony with your body to help you feel like your best self.

David Stephan IS Director of Marketing for Truehope, and a partnership with Andy could bring Truehope a nice new market segment at AoA, TMR, etc. etc.

What sentence would the judge have given Stephan if he had been remorseful....?

@ Helianthus
I couldn't finish listening to that ambulance call, I just couldn't. It was too painful.
I know small rural communities are different than the city--but, jeez, the Stephans didn't know how to give an emergency responder directions to their own home?
And what was up with the ambulence dispathcer--the emergency services person took almost 2 minutes to get their address, before asking anything further about the child's condition?
I'm sure I'd learn more if I could finish the recording, but I just can't do it right now....

Are those other children still with the parents? It should be mandatory for those children to have a medical guardian and be brought to a medical professional until they reach the age of majority.

Other kiddos have to be taken to medical dr every 3 months. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/lethbridge-meningitis-trial-sente…

Let's hope this means somebody from Canada health not a random quack.

This just in,
The husband has been sentenced to 4 months jail time, and the wife to 3 months house arrest. They both have to do community service, they're on probation for a couple of years, and the kids have to see an actual MD every 3 months. !!
This is precedent setting I think. A win for our side for a change...and all it took was yet another death of a child.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/meningitis-trial-verdict-1.3552941

Sorry...didn't read all the other comments before posting this.

Maple syrup to treat meningitis and a child dies... that's called 'health freedom'?

These people can freely get their kids treatment while my country had recent news about vaccines being faked and are spread all over big cities?

What.

Pathetic. Let your child die in terrible pain from an illness he would have likely survived had you, his parents, you know, the people tasked with putting him above all else, taken him to an actual fucking doctor, and that's what you get.

This is how much we value children. Don't let anyone say otherwise.

It's not a win. Nobody wins here.

Defence: Collet will be living with her father-in-law and his wife.

That would be Tony Stephan. So the remaining kids are out of the frying pan and into the fire...

Excerpts from the last day of the trial, before the sentencing:

Collet:

"I had a nightmare after we were charged of a SWAT team breaking into our house in the middle of the night and stealing our children," she said,

I would hope it was her guilty conscience talking, but I'ma afraid it's just her paranoia.
If only she could have nightmares of her children dying. Traumatic, but at least these would mean she is thinking of her children well-being before herself.
What's with the alt-med narcissism and their delusion to be at the centrer of the world?

Some random guy:

During the sentencing, a supporter burst into the courtroom and yelled: "The stewardship of children is the parents' responsibility!" before he was dragged out by security.

Why, yes, that's true. Thanks you, my good sir.
So we agree that the parents are responsible if, due to their bad decisions, something happen to their children.

Not that you meant? Oh, surely you don't advocate for responsibility without accountability.
This idea that people are not to be held accountable is a very weird position to have for people displaying publicly their deep religious beliefs.

@#129, let's suffice it to say, mom and myself and wife shared a hell of a lot of common ground. PCOS, failed pregnancies and more. We found a hell of a lot of common ground, to the point of actually answering each sentences.

Mom would've sent me up the river and rightfully so. In that situation, I'd send my own wife up the river and rightfully so.
Our own daughters would do the same.
It *was* one thing we drummed into them: A sense of honor and protection of those defenseless.

Frankly, if either or both of our daughters disavowed that view, we'd disown them to the point of not even acknowledging their very births.
Children are first and foremost, they're precious, delicate in the beginning, a treasure for a culture at all.

As in, if I did that crap to my own grandchild, my own children would turn me in, with the full train of custody that related to them - in detail.
They also know, fail to follow that very train of honor, I'll be following ASAP with a knife.
It isn't quite an honor killing in some religion, it's a matter of ignoring honor, to the harm of a minor child.
I'd rather die than let one minor child be harmed.
Ever.
But, I do call into play, those who wanted or desired, regardless of intent, harm upon a child. Just as I have always desired.
Trust me, the conflict died early on...

Of course the mother gets the weakest slap on the wrist out of the two. The sexism is alive and well in the court system. What a joke.

@ Amethyst

It's not that simple in this case.

To start with, I don't know in Canada, but in my country it's very rare to get a jail time for a first offense, unless we are talking bloody murder. The norm is probation, community service, and reprieve (deferment? I don't know the exact English word. You get a sentence, but you don't go to jail unless you commit another similar offense. French: sursis)
So in the current legal framework, in hindsight, a "slap on the wrist" was to be expected.

The judge explained why he gave David a higher sentence, and it sounds justified.

Out of the two parents, it's the mom which tried to do something outside of feeding the family's company's magical pills to Ezekiel. Granted, it didn't amount to much - an internet search and asking the opinion of a nurse friend and of a ND (she went into the ND's office, the dad stayed in the car).
Out of the two parents, the mom may have been the more sincere at expressing regrets. At least she cried. As I pointed above, I feel she is crying for herself, not for her children, but heck, if you care just about observing a ritual, close enough.

Out of the two parents, it's the dad which has been the more vocal about conspiracies, and about shifting the blame on the paramedics.
Out of the two parents, it's the dad which penned a letter on facebook, in which he said that the jury members have been duped by the Man. He doubled down later on this during his interview with the other narcissists from Vaxxed. In both cases, a clear implication of the dad's allegations was that the judge was part of a corrupt system, if not corrupt himself.
Frankly, David is lucky. I think the judge would have been in his rights to add "the accused insulted the Court" to the charges.

The mom may be as much a believer as the dad, but since she was less vocal, she got less. The dad was a much more visible proud nail looking for a hammer.

Also, from the judge's comments, I think he tried very hard to come to a judgement which didn't result in foster care, feeling it to be a worse solution than anything else*. We may disagree with him on this, but sending one parent in jail and the other on house arrest is making sense, in this context.
At least, he is separating them, and the dad from the children.

Now I had time to reflect on this, to me the most important part of the sentence is the probation and the obligation to bring the children to a public nurse every 3 months. At least the other children will have a chance.

The media coverage is also quite substantial. It's up to us skeptics to not forget Ezekiel as a clear exemple of what happens when a quack decide to cure a child with magical pills.
Because you could be sure the other side will quickly forget him. Yeah, they will remember the martyred parents. But Ezekiel? Pretty sure we will soon get a troll who will mangle or not remember his name.

* one comment from the judge was that the Crown failed to prove that failing to provide medical care was abuse (neglect or "wilfully blind", yes, but not abuse in the legal sense). A number of regulars here are on the opposite opinion, but that's not a widespread stance.

tl;dr: David has been openly a jerk. Since he wanted so much to be a martyr, the judge obliged.

Not to minimize the following, but to contrast and compare sentencing in some recent Canadian animal cruelty cases with the sentencing in this human case:
2 years jail - "intentional" cruelty to a dog which did not die:
cbc(dot)ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-dog-abuser-justice-1.3428729
.
6 months jail - "unintentional" cruelty - 6 dead dogs due to heat stroke in truck:
cbc(dot)ca/news/canada/british-columbia/emma-paulsen-b-c-dog-walker-gets-jail-time-for-animal-cruelty-1.2935040
.
I guess, just like many cases in the USA, it is more dangerous for the perp to harm or kill an animal than to harm or kill a human.

@Helianthus, I assume that suspended sentence is the term you are looking for. I.E. you stay out of jail as long as you keep your nose clean of similar type offences for the duration of the suspended sentence.

Not to minimize the following, but to contrast and compare sentencing in some recent Canadian animal cruelty cases with the sentencing in this human case:

That's because parents own their children more thoroughly than they own dogs. No, I'm not kidding. That is the basic attitude: "These are my children, and the state can't tell me how to raise them."

To quote Rand Paul: "“The state doesn’t own the children. Parents own the children, and it is an issue of freedom.” This attitude is pretty much universal, apparently even in Canada.

@ John Phillips

Thanks, that sounds like it.

@ Reality/Orac

That’s because parents own their children more thoroughly than they own dogs.

I don't think Old Europe is that much different, in that regard.

There was a time, not so long ago, where "cruelty to animals" was not a legal concept. Well, you could be put on trial for damaging someone else's dog, and your neighbours could complain about side effects like the noise or smell resulting from the mistreated animals, but that was about it. You own it, you can put it to death, and anything in-between. Thank goodness, mentalities - and laws - have changed.

I guess pets were a lower-hanging fruit, compared to children; a topic easier to address, less polarizing. We still have some work to do with the latter topic.

I wonder if part of our "apathy" is because it's also easier to decide to remove someone's pets than someone's children, precisely because we have more empathy for little human beings than for other animals, so we are more hesitant about what to do.

Now I had time to reflect on this, to me the most important part of the sentence is the probation and the obligation to bring the children to a public nurse every 3 months.

That's how I feel about it as well. I was initially disappointed at the insultingly brief sentences (Ezekiel lost his entire life and they lose 3 - 4 months?!), but ultimately, protecting the remaining children is more important than making an example of their parents.

In other anti-vax news..

today Dan Olmsted continues his article on polio; in the comments he says:
" a minor microbe turned into dangerous epidemics when certain toxins were present.
" kids hit with a load of mercury or aluminum or whatever crap is in today's ubiquitous pesticides get hit with three or four live viruses at age 1 and down they go"

In other words, he didn't take my advice about courses in life science. Oh well. * C'est la vie*

-btw-

In the early 1920s as a child, my mother used to like to visit a young woman who had a newborn baby. She really frightened her mother though when another child who lived there came down with polio- however despite the worries, neither she nor her siblings ever got sick- I suppose they were untainted by pesticides or suchlike. Green living and organic diets in 1922. Sure.

How does Olmsted explain the presence of polio in, for example, ancient Egypt? I'm sure there's an explanation, but I'm not going to that nasty site to find out.

@Helianthus - A higher sentence I would've been fine with, but the fact that he gets prison time while she gets cushy house arrest? Nuts to that! Sure, she contacted a nurse friend, sure she Googled stuff but in the end what did she do?

She ignored everything the found that conflicted with her naturoquack beliefs.

If the father gets jail time, she should've as well - simple as that. What a farce.

@ Amethyst

If the father gets jail time, she should’ve as well

In my exalted opinion*, the dad got jail time for badmouthing the judicial system.
If he had kept his mouth shut and put some efforts in looking remorseful, maybe he would have had house arrest instead of jail, too.

* i.e. not even worth the electrons I have used to publish it

@Ellie #142, Aliens?

Orac said, "That’s because parents own their children more thoroughly than they own dogs. No, I’m not kidding. That is the basic attitude: “These are my children, and the state can’t tell me how to raise them.”"

I guess the lesson learned here is that the Stephans (and others) were lucky they only killed their child and not their dog. If they had killed their dog, or just "a dog", the entire All Nachrule Back To Nachure crowd would be after their blood.

I'm sure all the "health freedumb" maniacs are taking notes.

” kids hit with a load of mercury or aluminum or whatever crap is in today’s ubiquitous pesticides get hit with three or four live viruses at age 1 and down they go”

Too many beautiful hypotheses have been destroyed by making them specific, with details. Dan is determined to avoid that mistake.

That's especially true, as I'm unaware of any pesticide in use today that contains aluminum, a rather common element, or mercury in them.
I do know of some that contain copper compounds. I guess the individual now thinks that pennies are bad.

Oh wait, they are bad for kids. They swallow them, their stomach acids strip the copper and then dissolve the zinc, leading to zinc toxicity. But, that's something totally different.

But, that reminds me, I'll have to pop out for a bit and pick up some Roundup, I'm nearly out and the weeds are winning the battle for my garden.

I suspect the disparity between sentences for animal torturers and child torturers has something to do with precedent. It is quite common for people in Alberta to be prosecuted for offenses against animals but quite rare for people to be prosecuted for failing to provide the necessities of life. In the former case, as judge would have many other cases for reference for sentencing, in the latter, very few (as the judge in this case noted).

I think the prosecution missed an opportunity to go after the mother on the matter of "researching" on the internet, when it could have easily be shown that most sites discussing the possibility of meningitis instruct readers to promptly consult a physician, which she did not do. I think the judge also erred in giving her, apparently uncritically, credit for this so-called research.

There is another far worse case of killing a child slowly before the Alberta courts, though the case has been suspended until at least August. That is the case of the horrendous treatment and death of Alex Radita, whose parents are charged with murder. His parents failed to treat his diabetes, and when he died at age 15 he weighed just 37 pounds. His parents' motives in the neglect have been hard to discern from the reports I've seen. They failed to care for him, prayed for him, but didn't apparently resort to quackery as such. One news article.
I may attend the sentencing for this case.

Keep a couple of things in mind regarding the sentences. First, as regards the discrepancy between neglecting an animal vs. neglecting a kid, we know that taking kids away from their parents is traumatizing and results in lasting harm. We don't have a similar awareness for animals.

Second, (tied to the first) giving one parent jail time and the other parent house arrest ensures that the kids will be with at least one parent. An added layer of protection is in place with the requirement of being seen every 3 months by a public health nurse and at least once a year by an MD (not an ND).

Our sense of justice makes us want to see both parents in jail for at least several years, but we also need to think about the children that are still there. If both parents went to jail, the kids would probably end up with family members (who, by all accounts, don't seem to be much better than the parents with regard to beliefs in medical nonsense). So we're left with the same situation, but causing psychological harm to the kids in the process.

@ Ellie:

I don't know... GMO / arsenic laden papyrus- over-used by scribes ( all their sons got ASDs)?

What's wrong with a bit of arsenic one and then? I prefer mine with a touch of strychnine and with a white phosphorus chaser. ;)

I think that the answers I receive/d here probably make much more sense than anything Olmsted would come up with.

Second, (tied to the first) giving one parent jail time and the other parent house arrest ensures that the kids will be with at least one parent.

Sure, but... let me back up. I expected something similar to this, although the sentences do seem light. I don't even know what the point of "house arrest" for Collet is (nor do I have any notion of Canadian law, mind you). It's like sentencing someone to a pain in the ass.

I am, however, reminded of one corruption case in the Land of Lincoln – which I'm too tired to dig up, although Bob McDonnell in Virginia seems similar – where the convicted couple simply serve their incarceration terms one after the other.

It hardly matters in the grand scheme of things – maybe Collet actually learned something.

I'll admit, I'm a bit divided on this, likely, courtesy of a similar case here in the US. In the US case, the parents received a light sentence, even lighter than this one, for faith healing their child, who died.
The courts took a dimmer view when a second child from that household died from another easily treated disease.

Hence, my reticence for letting any of these idiots off easily - especially when they've shown the entire planet that they've learned nothing whatsoever from this tragedy.

By the same token, do we place them in prison, denying an entire family of both parents, income and creating a drain upon our society, with hardened criminals?
Honestly, if Solomon actually did live, I suspect he'd have one hell of a time deciding this one.
And to be honest, the entire case makes me incredibly, unspeakably angry.
I've helped handle response for epidemics of vaccine preventable diseases and saw the horrors of tiny graves being filled. My wife and I also wanted a large family, but out of 16 pregnancies, only two live births ensued. Medical misadventures removed the possibility for any further attempts.
One result of that is, we've long taken to adopting entire families, being a good friend with sage advice and a hand up in life.
On the other hand, we're incredibly protective of children, hence a known prejudice in cases like this. Neither of us could, in good faith, ever sit on a jury on a case like this and we'd tell the court so.
I also withhold my outrage, as it's a court in a foreign land to my own, their nation, their laws, their courts, their choice. I'll content myself to learn something new on what works and what doesn't.
While our good neighbors up north shake their heads over my nation and all of our guns...

In life, everyone has their purpose. Some, it seems, simply exist to proved an excellent example of a bad example. My goal is to not be that kind of an example.
Occasionally, I get it right. ;)

@ Wzrd1

That’s especially true, as I’m unaware of any pesticide in use today that contains aluminum, a rather common element, or mercury in them.

You are misinterpreting Dan Olmsted's narrative (on purpose? Apologies if I missed the sarcasm).

That we are seeing here is a perfect case of religious syncretism.

- some people think that aluminium or mercury, notably in vaccines, cause autism or other issues (and let's not nitpick about which type of compounds are present, here - it's all "heavy metals")
- some people think that pesticides cause the same issues (pesticides like glyphosate, but no, not copper sulfate, this one is organic, don't you know)
- and finally*, GMOs cause the same issues (independently of any pesticide)

Dan is just writing all of these "theories" into a single narrative. Everybody will see parts of his own pet theory, everybody is happy.

But indeed, there is the interesting question of how such very different molecules could trigger the same health issues, in this case a polio infection.
(if if was only talking about similar symptoms - although, again, real life doesn't concur)

Oh, and thanks for sharing your experiences.

* I'm sure I forgot a few "theories". I'm not that obsessed with finding all of them.

Erm, I'm all

GMO / arsenic laden papyrus- over-used by scribes

Papyrus the typeface? My opinions of it are well-known (and not positive).

Given the circumstances, this is probably the best outcome that could be expected. It doesn't look that much like the parents have learned much of use from the experience; sadly. Locking them both up would have put the children into a worse situation - either foster care or their in-laws care. Other than a slavish adherence to useless supplements and alternative medicine, the parents were not otherwise subjecting the children to harm. Ensuring they have their mother and are seen regularly by a doctor is the best of several bad options. Not even a longer probation would help. It would simply increase the risk that the parents would be locked up for some trivial unrelated misdemeanor.

As Delphine noted above, nobody wins here.

And yes, I can't work out what Del Bigtree was thinking in doing this video. But then I have come to the conclusion he is just as much a narcissist as Andrew Wakefield and this video was really all about Del. Clearly, the falling out between Wakefield and Bigtree will be spectacular when it happens.

I’ll admit, I’m a bit divided on this, likely, courtesy of a similar case here in the US. In the US case, the parents received a light sentence, even lighter than this one, for faith healing their child, who died.
The courts took a dimmer view when a second child from that household died from another easily treated disease.

Yep. You're talking about the Schaibles:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/05/28/religion-and-quackery-two-…

I hope none of the Stephan's other kids becomes seriously ill, or we'll be seeing the same story repeating itself in Canada.

I remember that one, as it was local to me at the time.

@ herr doktor bimler:

No no no!
The scribes handled LOADS of papyrus whilst scribing and thus, passed on its TOXINS to their male children ( although scribes were men and that might be quite a feat as men are not usually preggers which is an easier pathway than the alternative but I digress).

I imagine that readers understand that I read much of Dan's theorising about how Kanner's subjects acquired autism ( via father's profession working with chemicals et al)

Wzrd@155: "By the same token, do we place them in prison, denying an entire family of both parents, income and creating a drain upon our society, with hardened criminals?"

Given these irreformable scumbags make their income selling vitamin pills to the mentally ill as replacement for their real medication, yeah, I think society can stand just a little more drain perfectly fine. Remember, this is not the first time the Stephans have killed. Honestly, I'd have more sympathy for the hardened criminals that have to tolerate these shits for as many years as the court can throw at them.

Oh, and I really wish people would stop badmouthing foster care as if it was the absolute last thing in the world that should ever be inflicted upon a child. My folks did fostering for more than a decade as I was growing up, and they're the finest people I know - even ended up adopting one of their placed kids as their own. Maybe it really is that terrible in the States, where everything seems corrupted by greed, graft, and apathy; and no-one is pretending it isn't hugely demanding and difficult on everyone involved, but welcome to hard reality. There's still a damn sight worse things that can be done to a child, like being abandoned to be the second innocent brutally tortured and killed by their so-called "loving parents" in devotion to their vile self-serving "religions".

FYI - Hooker's case with the NVICP is over....he lost.

Epically.

@ has
It probably would have been good to contact her before the sentencing, but still might be now. Natalie Clancy is the author of the article you linked to.
Often a newspaper will link to a reporter's email, but I couldn't find one on the www.cbc.ca site. I gather she writes from Vancouver, so she may not have followed the Stephan story, but would likely still have an interest in TruHope connections. I did find a note on the cbc.ca site that said often the best way to contact reporters is via their social media pages. Natalie Clancy is on Facebook and twitter, so perhaps you or Sadmar will be moved to write her.
I think the more we cultivate relationships with journalists, the more we have a chance to be heard. I'm not one to claim that I have done this successfully.

2 & 4 months?? WHAT???

In the USA, you can and, if you can't afford a well connected lawyer will get longer than that for driving with an expired or suspended license. Heck, a motorcyclist once got more than that for speed-testing his superbike (it hit 180 mph!). No accident, no injuries, way out in nowhere road.

But kill your kid 'cuz using the same scams you are pushing on other parents? Aww, you poor dear, take a little time off in a clean Canadian jail.

No, they need to be an example. I'd suggest a remedy involving a rope and the rapid action of gravity, but this offends modern sensibilities. A more suitable yet tempered sentence is seven and ten years (wife, husband) in Canada's version of violent offender's prison, to be housed with other organized crime figures. Then when they get out, each must to pay for their prison costs. That should keep them busy for a while.

@ has

I really wish people would stop badmouthing foster care as if it was the absolute last thing in the world that should ever be inflicted upon a child.

Oh, no complain here. I said I see why the judge was hesitant, not that I agree with him.
Actually, if anything, I wish the prosecution spent more time digging the "fed your own kid your company's pills" angle. They may have come closer to convince the judge that this was a case of abuse.
Or maybe not. Canada officials and culture have been very sympathetic to the naturopath/chiropractor approach, in the past decade, judging from what I have seen when I was living over there.
I found out that Canadians are wonderfully tolerant to all ways of life, on average, compared to my country (or the US). The downside is that, sometimes, I found them wonderfully tolerant to crap.

As bad an outcome but better charges.

After authorities found a dead 4-month-old girl starved, injured and covered in bedsores, her parents told police they were too busy to take her to see a doctor.

That couple -- a 34-year-old man and 24-year-old woman -- were arrested Friday for the death of their daughter, who was found unresponsive in their home Thursday morning. Both are jailed on suspicion of murder.

Authorities were called about 5:45 a.m. to the 1400 block of 17th Street Northeast in Auburn on reports of an infant who was unconscious, not breathing and cold to the touch, an Auburn police detective said in court papers. Police and firefighters arrived to find the child "obviously deceased."

Auburn police noted the infant was "exceptionally thin and discolored," and that she had a significant sore on her chin.

The baby was lying on a mattress on the bedroom floor, appearing malnourished with her rib cage visibly protruding and muscles and bones visible through her skin, the detective said in court papers. She appeared to have little baby fat. Rather, her stomach was distended and the separation lines between her stomach muscles were visible. She also had a mysterious protrusion on her upper left rip.

The one-bedroom apartment was also home to two 2-year-old twins, according to the probable cause. Authorities found the household "unkempt and unsanitary" with what appeared to be feces and "biological waste" on the floors, the detective continued.

During a interview, the mother said their family had run errands for most of the previous day. She worked as a courier and kept the children in the car seven days a week for 10 hours or more per day, she is alleged to have told police.

The woman claimed she fed her baby a bottle about 10 p.m. Wednesday night before the family went to sleep.

She awoke to her baby stirring and grunting about 3 a.m. Thursday and tried to feed her a bottle, but the baby did not drink anything, so she went back to sleep.

According to the detective's statement, she told officers she checked on the baby again at 5 a.m. and noticed she wouldn't respond. She and the baby's father tried to revive her and reportedly debated on whether to take the infant to the hospital or call 911. They finally called for help 45 minutes later at 5:45 a.m.

The mother told police she fed her baby from a bottle every three hours, but that due to a new job, she had recently left the baby with the father for three days, police contend.

When interviewed, the father said he would feed the baby by propping a bottle on a blanket because he was "too busy around the house" to hold her and feed her by hand, the detective said in court papers.

The mother said she noticed her baby had been losing weight, but "she did not think it an important issue," the detective said. The father is alleged to have said he didn't notice much weight loss and that he didn't believe she suffered anything critical enough to take her to a hospital.

As to the baby's injuries, the mother claimed the marks on her face were a "small rash" that grew worse over time, according to the detective's report. She said she noticed the protrusion on the baby's rib cage three days earlier and that when she pushed on the bump the baby didn't show any sign of discomfort, so she didn't think it was a big issue, court records say.

The baby had reportedly not seen a doctor for two months. The mother said there were problems with insurance paperwork and that she ditched a wellness checkup a month before because she was "too busy with work," the detective said in court papers.

The autopsy indicated that the baby was 8.2 pounds at the time of her death after being born at 6 1/2 pounds. She had suffered multiple acute rib fractures on her left side, which were associated with the abscess protruding from her ribs. She also had multiple rib fractures on her right side, which caused internal bleeding.

She also had an ulcer on her buttocks, much like a bedsore, which led to an abscess moving up her spine.

She was in an "obvious state of malnourishment and dehydration," according to police reports, with almost no body fat. The medical examiner who looked at her indicated she had suffered obvious neglect and physical injury.

Police arrested the parents at their home about 3 p.m. Friday.

Only then did the mother explain the baby's facial injuries, blaming them on the father, according to police statements. She is alleged to have said the father lifted the baby in the air by biting her mouth, according to court records.

The mother also said she suffered physical abuse from the baby's father, the detective continued. She said he hit in her in the head and that during one incident, while he was chasing her around the house, he stepped on their baby, reports say. It was after that when she noticed the injuries to the baby's ribs.

Regardless, she maintained that she did not see any reason to seek medical care for her baby and that she denied the child was malnourished, the Auburn detective wrote.

The mother is held on $1 million bail. The father's bail will be determined Monday afternoon.

Lynsi Burton can be reached at lynsiburton@seattlepi.com. Follow her on Twitter at @LynsiBurton_PI.

Rich Bly@168:

...

Fuck, I got nothin. Some people simply aren't wired to be human. Made, not born, too.

Me, was gonna post this. Kid survives, but will be interesting to see how charges and sentencing and child welfare decisions compare to Stephans'. One man's narcotic is another woman's drug.

Crap, screwed the link:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2016/06/27/local-media-pr…

Part of the judgment against the Stephans included a requirement that they post the full ruling on their Prayers for Ezekiel Facebook page, according to an article on Vice. They've yet to do so.

The Stephans' posted a radiology report that they claim shows that Ezekiel died from lack of oxygen (due to the ambulance now having the correct equipment) and not due to meningitis:

http://www.meetthestephans.com/ctscans.html

Also, it sounds like the Crown is appealing the sentencing.

The Stephans have filed an appeal of the conviction.

http://m.calgarysun.com/2016/07/08/stephans-appeal-conviction-in-death-…

I find it remarkably hard to believe that copies of the images were not available to the defense (given, in part, that "scan" images can be replicated with all the info of the original at the push of some buttons). I'm slightly tempted to look for a transcript of the trial to see if the defense put a motion to compel their provision before the court. I know barely more law than the average squirrel, but I'm pretty darned sure if a judge orders evidence to be made available to the defense someone will be nailed for contempt or worse if it isn't provided. I don't recall seeing any report of suggestion of the grand coverup now alleged being brought during the actual trial - only in the desperate outburst of the mother at the sentencing hearing.

Regardless of any of that, I think a savvy prosecutor is likely to dwell significantly on the fact that wee Zeke would very likely not have quit breathing at all had his parents acted to seek real medical attention even a few hours earlier.

If the appeal goes ahead, it will probably be heard in Calgary (only two appeal courts in the province - the other is in Edmonton). I will attend.

A commenter active at the Calgary Herald (and banned from the Stephans' pages) who identifies herself as an imaging technician writes: "They only show the preliminary images which are for measurement sake to make it appear the brain looks clear! That scan isn't even started yet as shown on the images saying #1 of 30." ("This space intentionally left blank.")

http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columnists/breakenridge-ezekiels-paren…

If this is true, either Sauvageau doesn't know how to read a CT scan, and is incompetent; or does, and is deliberately misleading. Either way, she's toast.

A commenter active at the Calgary Herald....

I'm still skimming through them, but I've seen two references to Jian Ghomeshi (likely from the same person). Was he actually a protracted news story in Canada?

Was [Jian Ghomeshi] actually a protracted news story in Canada?

Apparently so. Go figure.

More hanky-panky from the Stephans: evidently they've posted the ruling at long last, but backdated it to "June 27th."

http://www.newstalk770.com/2016/07/08/stephan-ruling-posted-crown-appea…

And the fantasy has reached new heights: "The chikd was 100% the morning he lost his breathing." As if his breathing were a binky.

I thought this was interesting: Chaffetz is associated with a congressional anti-parks caucus:
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/07/08/3796737/republic-of-cliven-…

It looks to me like the Stephans are basing their appeal on the idea that the judge gave "unfair" instructions to the jury. There are also some posts on the "Prayers for Ezekiel" page that hint that the judge refused to allow some evidence that he should have allowed and that new evidence has came to light after the conviction.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that an appeal would take a long time to come to any sort of conclusion. Long enough that David and Collette would have served their time long before the appeal would ultimately be heard. I guess that one possibility is that if the crown were successful in getting a longer sentence on appeal, then appealing the conviction makes some sort of sense. But even in that case, appealing the conviction seems to me to be a lot of stress and cost for very little potential gain. It would however, open the door for soliciting (even more) donations on-line and keeping David in the spotlight... And keeping his family's supplement business in the spotlight...

They are now out on bail.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/david-collet-stephan-bail-appeal-…