medical school

On the "integration" of quackery into the medical school curriculum

oracknows — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 07:20:33 +0000

On the "integration" of quackery into the medical school curriculum

QEDCon is fast approaching (indeed, I can't believe I have to leave for Manchester tomorrow night), and because my talk there will be about the phenomenon of "integrative medicine," I've been thinking a lot about it. As I put together my slides, I can't help but see my talk evolving to encompass both "integrative" medicine and what I like to refer to as quackademic medicine, but that's not surprising. The two phenomenon are related, and it's hard to determine which has a more pernicious effect on science in medicine.

One aspect of quackademic medicine that I probably don't write about as much as I should is the "integration" of quackery into the curricula of medical schools. Part of the reason for that, I suspect, is that I am fortunate enough to be faculty at a medical school and cancer center that remain relatively untouched by the pseudoscience of integrative medicine. True, our medical school does have at least one credulous lecture about "complementary and alternative medicine" (CAM) that the medical students have to imbibe, but it really is pretty close to the bare minimum required by the accrediting agencies. Oh, yes. Proponents of integrative medicine have been so successful that one requirement for accreditation by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is that there be adequate instruction about CAM. Actually, that's not quite true. Among the educational objectives in the LCME requirements is ED-10: "The curriculum of a medical education program must include behavioral and socioeconomic subjects in addition to basic science and clinical disciplines." This is where CAM and integrative medicine are slipped in. That's because the Academic Consortium for Integrative Medicine and Health successfully lobbied the LCME to include CAM in its list of topics addressed in the LCME Medical Education Database relative to accreditation standard ED-10. Unfortunately, how that is done in practice is often in the form of entirely credulous teaching of CAM.

Last month, when I wrote about the $200 million donation to the University of California, Irvine (UCI) by the billionaire couple Susan and Henry Samueli to create a college of health sciences that will encompass several UCI schools, including its school of medicine and nursing school, dedicated to "integrating" quackery at all levels into medicine thusly:

The Samuelis’ gift will provide $50 million toward construction of a facility to house the college and $5 million for state-of-the-art technology and labs – forming the foundation of a national showcase for integrative health. It also earmarks $145 million to create an endowment for:

Up to 15 faculty chairs across the medicine, nursing, pharmacy and population health disciplines for senior, midcareer and junior faculty with expertise in integrative health

Integrative health training and mentoring for interested medical school students

Scholarships and fellowships for undergraduate and graduate students planning careers in related fields

Innovative curricular development and campuswide interdisciplinary research projects

Ongoing clinical services, research and education in the Susan Samueli Integrative Health Institute, including investigations of nonconventional interventions as part of medical treatment and educating medical and lay communities about benefits and risks associated with new healthcare approaches

What I didn't talk about so much was number 3: "innovative curricular development." That's CAM-speak for teaching CAM alongside real medicine as though homeopathy has scientific validity. This brings us to an article by noted cheerleader for "integrative medicine" Glenn Sabin, Integrative health's place in the medical school curriculum. If you want to know where Sabin's coming from, consider my previous discussions related to his promotion of alternative medicine, such as his "history" of the integration of quackery with medicine and his advocacy for anecdotal evidence disguised as "N-of-1 trials" over clinical trials in determining if various alternative medicines "work." He also first got my attention for openly admitting that integrative medicine is a brand, not a specialty. Also consider this paragraph from his latest:

My colleague, John Weeks, wrote a terrific response in Huffington Post to the media’s shameful coverage of the visionary and game-changing Samueli gift to UCI. He cogently supports his position with actual research, facts, and developments that illustrate just how out-of-touch these dwindling skeptics are—and how a few media outlets took the bait that led them down a narrow-minded narrative centering on one controversial therapy: homeopathy.

For me, though, the back-and-forth with the cynics is not worth the expended energy. This is not just about acupuncture or chiropractic or massage or dietary supplements. It’s much bigger.

The Samueli gift is about the future of health, led by the doctors of tomorrow, like my nephew, Max, who is in his first year of medical school at George Washington University.

Homeopathy is not "controversial." It is rank pseudoscience. This is not even in dispute. Just look at the way UCI started furiously scrubbing its websites of references to homeopathy as soon as critics started looking at the Samuelis' gift in detail. Clearly, the administration was embarrassed. I also note that one earlier gift agreement between the Samuelis to UCI explicitly mentioned that it was to be used to promote research into homeopathy, among other pseudoscientific modalities and that until recently UCI advertised the services of a naturopath and homeopath on its website. Even proponents of integrating quackery into medicine are embarrassed by homeopathy.

When discussing the "integration" of quackery into medical school, I like to discuss another "George" university namely Georgetown. In many ways, it was a "trailblazer" in "integrating" quackery into medicine. I recounted its history just a couple of years ago, citing a 2003 Georgetown brochure:

One of the reasons CAM is usually offered as an elective is that there’s just no time or room in U.S. medical schools to fit in one more massive subject,” says Michael Lumpkin, Ph.D., professor and chair of the department of physiology and biophysics at Georgetown. “When the course is an elective, a self-selected group – maybe 10 or 20 students in a class of 180 medical students – will take it,” Lumpkin says. “What we’ve tried at Georgetown is rather than create all new courses, we take relevant CAM issues and modalities and weave them seamlessly into existing courses.

The “seamless” weaving of CAM into existing classes includes, for instance, a presentation by an acupuncturist on the “anatomy of acupuncture” in the gross anatomy course for first-year students. The same lecturer explores acupuncture’s application in pain relief in the neuroscience course…

Haramati and Lumpkin say Georgetown’s program is distinct from CAM initiatives in other medical schools in two ways: The school is integrating CAM education into existing course work across all four years of each student’s medical education, and the initiative includes a mind-body class to help students use techniques to manage their own health and improve self-care.

Yes, fourteen years ago, Georgetown was "integrating" pseudoscience into its medical school curriculum at every level, starting from day one. Twelve years later, it was celebrating pseudoscience on the cover of the medical school's magazine. That's not all, though. Reflexology is taught as fact, along with prescientific medical systems, such as traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), "energy healing" like reiki and therapeutic touch, and pretty much every "integrative" quackery you can think of. In 2007, Georgetown partnered with the naturopathy school Bastyr University to train the next generation of integrative medicine practitioners.

This is the sort of future of medicine that Weeks and Sabin so strongly desire.

It's also not as though George Washington University isn't itself a bastion of quackademic medicine. Three years ago, I wrote about all the quackery advertised on its website. GWCIM's list of services includes acupuncture (of course!), chiropractic, craniosacral therapy, infrared light therapies, glutathione infusions, Myers’ Cocktail, naturopathy (again, of course!), reiki, intravenous high dose vitamin C, and genetic profile results that include “customized interpretation of 23andme.com genetic profile results with specific accent on methylation and detoxification profiles.” It’s a truly horrifying website to contemplate, given how little of it has any resemblance to science-based medicine and how much of it includes outright quackery like reiki. In addition, its website’s descriptions of various alternative medicine modalities are depressingly and similarly credulous. Acupuncture is described as being used for “for treatment of respiratory, digestive, urinary and reproductive systems, as well as the disorders of muscle tone, hormone production, circulation, and allergic responses” plus “pain relief, gynecological conditions and symptoms, insomnia, anxiety, and to enhance wellness.” Naturopathy is described as a “comprehensive approach to health and healing that combines modern scientific knowledge with traditional and natural forms of medicine,” with naturopaths addressing “the mental, emotional and physical aspects of an individual, and aim to treat the root causes as well as the symptoms of illness.” According to GWCIM, naturopaths are “trained as primary care doctors at accredited four-year naturopathic medical schools.”

No. They. Aren't.

I also can't help but note that John Weeks' article was really nasty broadside against critics of the Samuelis' gift to UCI in which he accused them of having "blood on their hands." Apparently, Sabin approves of such rhetoric, as long as it's directed against his opponents.

Sabin's article is yet another example of how "integrative medicine" rebrands science-based modalities, such as nutrition, exercise, and lifestyle modification as somehow "alternative" or "integrative" and then uses them as the vehicle in which quackery is also "integrated" into medicine, while trying to dismiss anyone who points out the pseudoscience as the "old guard—the few out-of-touch, aging critics pushing back." (I note that Sabin and Weeks aren't exactly spring chickens themselves.) Naturally, he tries to push back against the critics' narrative:

These same integrative health and medicine naysayers essentially conflate quackery—which ought to be called out and confronted—with the larger, progressive, and impactful, integrative health and medicine movement.

Critics also purport that nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction are already consistently applied (or taught) clinically—that it’s already ‘part of medicine’. These few critics are wrong. Their view is incorrect. Their statements are patently false. We know this because, if these truly preventative measures were applied—if this was remotely the case—our healthcare delivery system would be consistently delivering ‘health care’, not ‘chronic disease care’.

Proponents of integrative medicine always try to sweep all the quackery their specialty embraces under the rug. Pay no attention to that quackery behind the curtain, they say. We're all about nutrition, lifestyle, and stress reduction. They somehow never manage to address the question: Why is quackery so associated with integrative medicine? If integrative medicine really were about "nutrition, lifestyle, and stress reduction" and nothing else, the quackery would be unnecessary. Homeopathy, naturopathy, acupuncture, "energy healing," functional medicine, bogus allergy testing, and more forms of pseudoscience and quackery than I can list here (but have discussed over the years on this very blog) would not find such a comfortable home in "integrative medicine." That they do fit so nicely in "integrative medicine" is by design, not accident.

Consider this. Let's, for the sake of argument, concede that Sabin has a point. Perhaps nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction are not sufficiently consistently applied in clinical medicine. If that is indeed the case, the answer is to develop strategies to change this shortcoming in medicine. Those strategies, assuming they're science based (as they should be), will not involve embracing pseudoscience and quackery. Sabin and Weeks go on and on and on about promoting the "nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction" aspect of medicine, but fail to explain why a separate specialty is needed to emphasize these health promotion activities more. That's because they can't. The entire unspoken rationale that they cannot admit is that "nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction" function, in essence, as a Trojan horse for hardcore quackery. Integrative medicine shows up at the gates of academic medicine looking like ""nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction," but once the horse is pulled into the ivory tower of academia, out jumps the real quackery, like naturopathy, homeopathy, acupuncture, functional medicine, and the like.

Also unspoken is that the reason integrative medicine proponents want so badly to insinuate their specialty and thinking into medical school is because they want "nutrition, physical activity, and stress reduction" forever linked with the quackery that they also champion. At schools like GWU and Georgetown, it's working, too. I fear, however, that UCI will soon far surpass both GWU and Georgetown as bastions of quackademic medicine.

oracknows Wed, 10/11/2017 - 03:20

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complementary and alternative medicine

Homeopathy

medicine

Naturopathy

Pseudoscience

Quackery

Skepticism/Critical Thinking

Susan and Henry Samueli College of Health Sciences

Susan Samueli

University of California Irvine

complementary and alternative medicine

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Education

Does anyone have access to fitness and exercise advice prescribed by the "integrative" crowd?

I'm ready to bet £5 that it's all about tai-chi, yoga and "be careful not to exert yourself" types of exercise, rather than strength training or anything close to a sport or planned training with measurable performance or objectives.

To be fair, some forms of yoga can be very vigorous. I used to do vinyasa and ashtanga at a studio in Ann Arbor, and it was definitely difficult and good exercise. There are "goals," like being able to attain certain postures or getting better at "easy" ones, holding things for longer, etc.

Sure, we can be a really proficient Yogi in the same way that someone can be a really good golfer, volleyball player or anything else.

My perspective though, is that there are sports and exercise endeavours that are more conducive than others to improving people's fitness in a measurable way.

My anecdotal experience is that alt-med types are keen to praise fitness and food advice but such advice is not even that great.

This:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fHrvWqN2TkM

Is not exactly golf. But whatever.

Sure, we can be a really proficient Yogi in the same way that someone can be a really good golfer, volleyball player or anything else.

Don't confuse the popularized "Swedish gymnastics" version of yoga with that connoted by the yogi/yogini title.

From the course descriptions, it looks like my med school hasn't yet integrated quackery into its curriculum.

It did recently get a huge cash donation, but the only visible consequence as far as I can tell is that they renamed the med school after the donor.

@ The Vodka Diet Guru:

To be truthful, a few woo-meisters** DO provide information about cardiovascular and strength training and advocate their usage - as well as yoga et al -
HOWEVER they often present realistic material in self serving ways or exaggerate its effects on health and longevity
.
They present themselves as examples and hint that their products will allow followers to achieve similar spectacular results to their own. Yep, they're elite athletes/ specimens.

They misrepresent what is indeed even feasible for most people in the real world ( which none of them inhabit)-
e.g. one hour of CV a day and one hour of weights most days plus meditation; doing physical work on a ranch or farm.
All while eating extremely restricted, arcane diets ( vegan, mostly raw or paleo, organic etc).

They promise incredible non-verifiable results like adding 6 years to your life, reversing menopause or eliminating/ curing most serious illnesses. You should remember that most of these guys ( and they are mostly men) sell videos, books and supplements/ superfoods whilst one has a holistic retreat/ spa to hawk.

** Mercola, Null, Adams

Sadly, CAM has been integrated into the nursing curriculum for the entire state of North Carolina community college system via the CIP program in 2007.

How well its been integrated depends on the individual instructor. I wouldn't teach that crap in my classroom. But some of my colleagues did on a regular basis, especially when it came to acupuncture and aromatherapy.

When I was in the psych ward at St. Joe's, they once offered some kind of ridiculous ear acupuncture. I considered doing it just for the chance to get off the locked ward, but instead I said "I don't believe in that stuff" and went and made some coffee or something. (They actually let us have real coffee at the two places I was at in Michigan.)

MSM has a Trojan Horse problem because apparently it f'ed up the "nutrition, physical activity, stress reduction angles" so badly, that it even still exists as a CAM thorn, after 50-80 years of MSM and diatetic failures.

The hostile comments here to discussion on higher dose vitamin D and (IV) vitaman C show how badly various strata of MSM misunderstand some biochemical subjects and mistreat (potential) customers.

Although thin on high cost evidence, there are a number of phenomena not well addressed in MSM recognized by legitimate MDs, PhD and independent thinkering patients with as much horsepower as the average MD or better. It's that simple.

Why do I do on about C and D? Because they are amongst the better described areas historically that an outsider can even begin to technically address various issues independently and their being ignored and misstated all these years have had substantial life and death consequences throughout society.

Fix the real problems or quit bitching and go extinct as "they" occupy and displace, even if part of them create more problems.

@prn

Er, no they're hostile to the fact that people like you say that extra vitamins "Can Cure All Your Ills" and other blather like that, when in fact the only thing you're getting rid of is your money.

PRN: I think part of the hostile reaction you personally are getting is that you act like a porcupine on meth. Asking for proof isn't the same as challenging you to a duel at dawn, but you act like it is.

I'm an alumnus of two prominent medical schools (MD, residency), and it pains me to see that both offer acupuncture, chiropractic, reiki, chinese herbal medicine, and other quackery.

prn: actually, no. Modern medicine has not "f'd" up nutrition. Quacks have co-opted it and sell a load of baloney. Not the same thing.

When you can prove your claims, come back. We've pressed you again and again for EVIDENCE you never provide.

"On the “integration” of quackery into the medical school curriculum"

Do you still teach?

And no...once again, you're wrong. I'm not Travis...

Panacea, #14: the original statement has a few missing words:

Modern medicine has “f’d” up the profitability of the quackery surrounding nutrition.

Hope that helps.

LOL. Conventional "modern medical professionals" are certainly not widely known for their independent thought or creativity. To be fair, the "standard of care" binds them, in order to avoid liability. Lifespans are longer at the moment than they were a century ago, but the quality of that extended life is generally not one that people would consider desirable. And the youngest generations are not predicted to live so long, with children plagued by obesity, arthritis, diabetes, cancer, and other chronic health problems. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize better answers must be out there. Kudos to the practitioners who are willing to explore them

LOL. Conventional “modern medical professionals” are certainly not widely known for their independent thought or creativity.

BTW, Honeybunch, you might want to have your freak radio tuned into the 16th.

^ "LOL"

^^ Oh, dear, G-d, I actually again tried sitting through one of Gindo's "Wal Thornhill" videos, which exist because LIGO makes him constipated,* or something. My machine actually crashed immediately after he barfed up the axiomatic nature of Euclidean geometry.

* If anybody has the spare time, there must be a wormhole theory to be had here.

@NWO

Well you're one to talk about "independent thought" and "creativity" when all you antivax snobs parrot out the exact same lame, pathetic excuses as to why you hate science and love to pad your wallets with the money of ill-informed people.

Is it just me or do all of the antivax people here all spout their own tropes over and over ad nauseum?

Okay apparently NWO has emerged from the void to ruin another comment section

@NWO

You're one to talk about a lack of creativity when all you antivax snobs parrot out the same excuses as to why you hate science and love to ruin people's lives.

Narad: "A braver man than I.."

I'd hoped NWO had figured out she's not welcome here, but alas, she's back.

(And no, I'm not going to her site. I just got this machine working again. In case you all have been wondering, I've been using my tablet most of the week.)

As far as creativity goes, I don't think most people want creativity from their doctors. Usually, people go to a doctor because they have a problem they want resolved. And 99% of the time, a relatively straightforward solution can be found.

As long as you're here, Ginny, I still want an answer. Did any European royalty die of smallpox or other diseases? Why isn't Europe full of immortal royalty?

Kudos to the practitioners who are willing to explore them

Some people who call themselves "practitioners" are exploring by selling things to ignorant people. They're exploring, all right-- prospecting for gold.

Other people are exploring by subjecting new ideas to high standards of evidence, and sharing the ones that work with real practitioners.

I know which group of practitioners I prefer: the ones who stick to evidence-supported treatments. Even if they are boring old uncreative fuddy-duddies (which they're not).

Heyy it's NWOR, ready to ruin another post.

Ohhkay sorry for all those dumb posts my stupid computer wasn't showing that they posted and I thought they got lost in the internet void

God this is so embarrassing....

This guy is full of crap - there is hard core FACTUAL EVIDENCE of curing of degenerative diseases - INCLUDONG CANCER - with ALTERNATIVE HEALING METHODS. When did he write this article of QUACKERY? Over the last 20 years - it has been PROVEN over and over again that big pharma, FDA, medical schools and health organizations are all HAND IN HAND keeping the medical industry afloat and in business! If we get CURES for these degenerative diseases without pharmaceuticals - what happens? There is no medical industry! See, there’s no $$ to be made in LIFESTYLE changes, foods that are good for you or in Mother Earth. Why would quacks like this say anything good about what we SHOULD do to be healthy - or how to get rid of or prevent disease? If they did that, they would lose billions! To find out more - read the book POLITICS IN HEALING!!

prn@10: MSM has a Trojan Horse problem because apparently it f’ed up the “nutrition, physical activity, stress reduction angles” so badly, that it even still exists as a CAM thorn, after 50-80 years of MSM and diatetic failures.

The hostile comments here to discussion on higher dose vitamin D and (IV) vitaman C show how badly various strata of MSM misunderstand some

Panacea@14: ...Quacks have co-opted [nutrition] and sell a load of baloney. Not the same thing.

Both parts can be true.

P@14We’ve pressed you again and again for EVIDENCE you never provide
I've provided sources for overviews *of what there is*.
You're greatly biased and (a) behind.

IV vitamin C in acute disease, a subject obstructed by generations of medical biases, is largely summarized in those two books, Levy's Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins- and McCracken's Injectable Vitamin C and the Treatments of Viral and Other Diseases although a few important papers for working hypotheses are missing.

Vitamin D3 is a (re-)emergent area, what's available is largely viewable with vitaminDwiki.com

Oh, so you admit the High Vit C crowd sells baloney? Nice to know.

I said provide evidence, not nonsense.

PRN: See my remarks re:your attitude and maybe, you might see why you're getting a "hostile reaction." It's one thing to present bad facts; its another thing entirely to present bad facts and sneer and snarl while you're doing so. Maybe drop the dukes a little and open up those ears.

PGP: Bad facts are in the eye of the beholder. I'm past trying to "prove" things to those of narrow and very dense, concrete perspectives. The problem I deal with here is to find which facts or concepts are at variance in a certain way. Sometimes I do try inject a little reality or perspective into the conversation, whether its in an FDA approved factoid or not.

Occasionally I get nice useful bits of science or history - e.g. Kerbiozen was the most frequent with his lab based experiences, sometimes Narad has useful original content that I've never seen, even when it's ad homeniem dirt on someone.

@prn

There are no such things as "bad facts", moron. You sound like those idiotic knuckleheads who came up with "alternative facts."

A fact is a fact, and just because you do not like it, or it comes from somebody/thing you do not like, does not diminish its factualness. Arrogant fluff-brain.

Epsilon, you sound like a grammer nazi that has little experience in the real world and with laboratory work. "Facts" can be very slippery things even in various technical environments due to inadequate specification, description or measurement of conditions, context, misuse, abuse, and yes, politics.

People will often quote some basic random error stats in their data when their systematic errors and biases are eating them alive by orders of magnitude larger. In fact this latter point is central to a number of disputes between CAM and MSM, with profound examples from both "sides". Whether these larger errors are merely unknown, unrecognized or (willfully?) unacknowledged is another area that often colors the conversation.

I'll go one further on the oxymoron of "bad facts":
they come in several flavors.

When, pray tell, did I ever try to correct your grammar? Yes, I did state that you were wrong, and I admit I went off a little, but I never even paid attention to your grammar. (But I will correct your spelling here: it's "grammar" not "grammer," doofus)

Another thing I will admit, unlike you, is that no, I do not have experience in medical fields or laboratory workings; I have not reached that part of my life yet.

If you are true, and there are "bad facts," then they are not facts, but lies. Also, you're one to talk about biases, so don't lecture me on them sweetie.

@Suzy

Uhh yeah there's tons of money to be sold in altie medicine. Just look at the overpriced vitamin C supplements prn is probably hawking. Look at how much money it costs to eat healthy, and how much you have to pay to get into altie "cancer treatment" clinics that are just oh-so conveniently out of the country to avoid restriction.

prn: I’m past trying to “prove” things to those of narrow and very dense, concrete perspectives. The problem I deal with here is to find which facts or concepts are at variance in a certain way.

First thing, see that second half of the first sentence? That's exactly what I mean when I was talking about your attitude and the way you come in swinging.

Secondly, you don't have any facts. You've never provided any proof of anything, and haven't managed to provide or find a single citation by anyone reputable. You just assert "these things are fact," and demand that you be taken seriously on your word alone. And you've done this for years.That's just not going to fly.

You really don't know how science works, do you?

There's no such thing as bad facts. A conclusion is either correct, or incorrect.

The sky is blue. It may vary in its shade of blue for a wide variety of factors, but it is still blue. It is not green. It is not red. It is not yellow.

prn makes a grand claim about errors of magnitude but since he NEVER gives verifiable examples of what he means by that, he takes the language of science and turns it into a Star Trek like technobabble that isn't nearly as interesting or enjoyable as Star Trek.

To a Troo Believer™ like prn, a fact is 'bad' when it differs from the imaginings [s]he desires to consider as if it were reality. 'Bad facts' are the equivalent of trump's 'fake news'.

there is hard core FACTUAL EVIDENCE of curing of degenerative diseases – INCLUDONG CANCER – with ALTERNATIVE HEALING METHODS

I'm not sure where it's going to prove useful, but I'm definitely adding it to my vocabulary.

@Narad

Maybe it's a secret term like covfefe or heel. :p

It's a portmanteau, and I've heard it used in Thailand.

@Suzy you are right. Conventional medicine sent me home to die after 20 doctor's and untold number of hospital's could not figure out I had Lyme disease.
That was in 2005. A Chiropractic Physician saved my life and correctly diagnosed my condition on the first visit.
Herbs and homeopathic remedies are true medicine.
RX drugs are just a mask or bandage on the wound.

I'm off all RX drugs and have never looked back.

In all fairness, if you get a broken bone, burst appendix or need open heart surgery then I say go to they specialist. I am not against doctor's. They have their place and are good for certain things.

Marjean: sent you home to die?

What hyperbole.

A false diagnosis of Lyme disease might be good for at least 20 followup visits to the chiro.

"Antibiotics just mask the problem dearie, you need a comprehensive set of adjustments."

Ugh, really? Physical manipulation cured your Lyme?

More like your chiro cured you of the dreaded disease called "wealth".

Worse - it was "physical manipulation" and homeopathy....which equals - "monetary manipulation."

Western Medicine is paramount for people to survive. Naturopathic Medicine is paramount for people to survive with vitality and an overall quality of life.

To negate Integrative medicine is small minded thinking. Yes, Western Medicine is groundbreaking but it’s missing ONE HUGE ingredient in it’s majority of it’s production.
PREVENTATIVE CARE.
This is because Big Pharma runs you guys and if you can’t see that then you’re either feeble minded or simply not willing to look.

So calling Naturopathic Medical Doctor’s a quackery is nothing but a cry out for your own shortcomings.

Let them bring the quality, the complimentary quality to the Western medicine world because we need it as long as you don’t offer it as a standard.

Gee, should I cancel my appointment, in about 2 weeks, for a long visit for preventative care, with a real doctor instead of a Not-a-Doctor? Should I not take the meds I take for the purpose of preventative care, since they were prescribed by a real doctor instead of an ND?
What, oh what, should I do????

Lady, this is a science blog, not the ad section of a tabloid. Go peddle your nasty snake oil elsewhere.

I hear Natural News welcomes your type. You'll love 'em. You both seem to love nature and ignoring decades of research for "treatments" that would make any respectable nurse or doctor facepalm.

Silly me. For years I've been teaching nursing students about the 3 levels of prevention. But I guess I don't know anything about that, according to Elizabeth.

Oh wait! Vaccines are prevention.

I could have sworn that naturopathy was a product of the Occident.

My doctor prescribed an update to my TDaP as a preventative measure today for a burn on my hand.
There’s a lot of skin that needs to heal and I don’t want my grandson to get pertussis!

Elizabeth: Scuse you. I just had a quarter size chunk dug out of me in the name of preventative medicine, because everyone concerned wanted to stop whatever it was cold. And every one of the medical professionals i saw was really serious about preventing any infection. No one pushed any more treatment on me than I needed. (for the record, I'm fine, no malignancy detected.)

Squirrelite: Congrats on the grand kid. We have a nib in the family, and I'm so happy I got my flu shot. (I updated my tdap before nib was born.)

All drugs are poisons, and that's OK

oracknows — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 04:30:19 +0000

All drugs are poisons, and that's OK

There are a number of aphorisms that one imbibes over many years of medical education, especially in medical school. Some are useful; some are not; but some stick with you for reasons that even you can't figure out. For example, I still remember my first day of medical school over 30 (!) years ago. It started with an introductory session beginning at 8 AM that lasted about an hour, an "orientation," if you will, after which classes began as normal. During this orientation, members of the medical school leadership, such as deans and the chairs of certain major departments, got a chance to speak to the brand new medical students, introduce themselves, and impart a little wisdom, such as they saw it. Not surprisingly, there was the usual "rah rah" about how lucky we were to be attending the University of Michigan Medical School, how we were the elite, the 170 or so students accepted out of over 3,000 applicants, the usual blather. I imagine that it's the same sort of thing they do now in "white coat ceremonies," but back then there was no real ceremony, and, as far as I'm concerned, it was good that there wasn't. I personally find white coat ceremonies that nearly every medical school now indulges in when a new class enters the school to be just a little too reminiscent of rituals welcoming new initiates into a religion for my liking.

Be that as it may, one thing I remember from the thankfully nonexistent pomp and circumstance I experienced starting medical school. The first was one of the professors (I forget which one) telling us that, ten years after we graduated, we will have forgotten at least 75% of what we learned, but what we remembered would be the "right" 25% for our patients. He also told us that at 50% of what we learned would be out of date; so we would have to learn to learn.

Another aphorism that I distinctly remember from later in my medical school experience was delivered on the very first day of my pharmacology class. Within the first five minutes the professor told us that all medications were poisons. They all interfere with normal cellular processes in some way. The ones we use as physicians just interfere with cellular processes in a way that can be beneficial in disease, and, quoting Paracelsus, he noted that the dose makes the poison.

So, yes, all medications are poisons in that they "poison" an enzyme or other biomolecule. (Look for a quack near you to quote mine that statement by saying, for instance, "Orac says all medications are poisons" and leaving out the rest of the sentence.) I'll give you an example: Aspirin. Aspirin, as many of you know, is acetylsalicylic acid. This particular molecule irreversibly inhibits an enzyme called cyclooxygenase (COX), which is involved in the production of mediators of inflammation, among other things. The exact details aren't important, such as how aspirin inhibits the COX1 version more than COX 2 or how it does so by attaching an acetyl chemical group to the active site of the enzyme. The point is that aspirin permanently inactivates an enzyme. It poisons the cell. That's how it works. In fact, when used as a "blood thinner," aspirin permanently poisons a certain kind of cell, namely the platelet. Because a platelet doesn't have a nucleus, it can't make more COX. What it has when it's made is all that it will ever have, and if that COX is irreversibly blocked, that platelet's function is impaired for the rest of its lifespan. Again, without getting too technical, that's how aspirin works as a blood thinner. It's an antiplatelet drug.

Speaking of blood thinners, I couldn't help but think of that medical school aphorism from pharmacology class as I read a particularly brain dead article published on the website of that über-crank and quack, Mike Adams, entitled POISON PRESCRIPTION: Warfarin rat poison widely used as prescription blood thinner. (Alternate Google cache link, given that Adams seems to have some sort of weird redirect thing going on.) Oddly enough, given the inflammatory language in this article and the general level of neuron-numbing medical ignorance on display, the article actually wasn't written by Mike Adams himself. Rather, its author by someone named S. Johnson, who is apparently too embarrassed to use his or her first name:

Many drugs pushed out by Big Pharma are equivalent to rat poison, but only a handful can actually claim to be rat poison. Meet warfarin: a widely used blood thinner which, prior to being used to treat a common heart rhythm disorder called atrial fibrillation, was used as rat poison.

This is, of course, true. Warfarin and related chemicals have been used as rat poison. However, warfarin is also used as a useful drug. Thee is no inherent conflict in this concept, nor is "big pharma" trying to poison us like rats by using warfarin. Indeed, there is only a conflict between these two uses if you buy into the idea that anything pharmaceutical is evil and anything "natural" must be good and utterly forget the concept of the dose making the poison. Something that in small doses can have a useful therapeutic effect can be toxic in large doses. In small doses, warfarin inhibits coagulation by interfering with one set of proteins that promote coagulation. In high doses, not surprisingly, it causes massive bleeding. The former is useful in preventing thrombosis-related complications of various diseases, like atrial fibrillation. The latter is useful because rats will eat warfarin up until they start bleeding.

Johnson goes on:

The compound responsible for bleeding – dicumerol – was discovered in 1934. In the early 1940s, it started to be tested in people as a blood thinner. In 1945, a stronger version of dicumerol was patented and named after the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF).

Around that same time, a close cousin of warfarin, named coumafuryl, was marketed as a rat poison under the brand names Rat-A-Way and Lurat. Coumafuryl was considered an effective rat poison for its odorless and tasteless quality, making it easier to feed to rats.

Warfarin was originally too strong to be given to people. However, it was prescribed for medical use in 1954, and increased in popularity in the early 1990s for slashing the risk of annual strokes by two-thirds, from 4.2 percent to 1.4 percent.

Patients prescribed warfarin for atrial fibrillation will likely be dependent on the rat poison for the rest of their lives. Although warfarin is widely prescribed, particularly to the elderly, few patients are aware that they are literally ingesting rat poison. Warfarin is now one of the most widely used oral anticoagulants in the United States.

Yes, it is, and with good reason. It's inexpensive, and it works. Johnson also neglects ot mention that the reason why warfarin/coumadin could be used in humans was the development of a blood test to measure how much of an anticoagulation effect it was having, which allowed for monitoring and dose adjustment and made its administration much safer.

Of course, coumadin does have a number of downsides, as Johnson notes. It requires monitoring. Bleeding complications are too common. Specific foods, particularly any food rich in vitamin K, can interfere with its effects. I know as well as anyone how tricky coumadin can be. During, any time I was on a vascular surgery rotation I'd be faced with trying to monitor and titrate patients' coumadin doses based on their blood tests. Indeed, back then, before the development of better anticoagulant drugs, it was often my job to switch patients over from intravenous heparin to oral coumadin, and patients couldn't go home until their blood values were within a therapeutic range. I know as well as anyone else that coumadin is a problematic drug, and physicians have always known it's a problematic drug. so much of what Johnson writes is not anything any physician who prescribes coumadin doesn't already know.

Next, Johnson points out that there are downsides to coumadin:

In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999. For people 80 years of age and older, the rate jumped from 2.5 in 1998, to a shocking 45.9 in 1999.

"For many people, the benefits of preventing ischemic stroke continue to outweigh the risk of a hemorrhagic stroke. Our findings should not discourage the use of warfarin when it's appropriate. Doctors can use these findings to make sure they are weighing the risks and benefits of warfarin use for their patients. For researchers, these results may stimulate efforts to develop safer alternatives to warfarin and better treatments for people with brain hemorrhages," said lead author and neurologist Dr. Matthew L. Flaherty.

According to Dr. Michael B. Rothberg, a former associate professor at Tufts Medical Center, doctors should consider the risk of stroke versus the risk of bleeding when prescribing warfarin.

I wondered what article Johnson was citing; so I did some PubMed searches. This appears to be the report. Not surprisingly, there appears to be a bit of cherry picking going on here, because this report was from 2007, and a more recent report from 2014, which encompassed a nationwide study in Sweden, found the risk of warfarin-associated intracranial hemorrhage to be low. Still, there's no denying that warfarin increases the risk of intracranial hemorrhage. How could it not. It "thins" the blood; it decreases the blood's ability to coagulate. That's its purpose.

As noted above, whenever a physician treats a disease or condition with a drug—or any other treatment, for that matter—it's a question of balancing risks with benefits. All real physicians know that. It's what they are trained to do. It's only in the fantasy world of deluded idiots like Mike Adams, Joe Mercola, antivaccinationists, and the usual assortment of quacks and cranks that there are medications or treatments for illness that have real therapeutic effects that don't also have risks and side effects. In some cases, these side effects and risks can be serious. Even when true, that doesn't invalidate or otherwise render useless the treatment and its therapeutic effects.

Here's an example I like to give. The treatments for cancer often include a combination of surgery (sometimes radical), chemotherapy (which is definitely very toxic), and radiation (which can be toxic). Given that the cancers for which these treatments are routinely used can kill you, on balance, the use of such "poisonous" treatments can be justified. Yes, they can cause horrible toxicity. But, also yes, they save lives. On balance, the benefits usually outweigh the risks. The science and art of medicine involve determining when the benefits do and don't outweigh the risks and to proceed accordingly. It sounds straightforward, but it most definitely is not.

Of course, this being NaturalNews.com and all, there is no such thing as nuance. Demonization of pharmaceuticals is the name of the game. This becomes clear here:

Fortunately, there are alternative blood thinners out there without the dangerous side effects anchored to prescription drugs. Both cayenne peppers and vitamin C, for instance, are great for the blood vessels and heart in general. Other natural blood thinners include foods rich in salivates, a natural chemical that serves as a major ingredient for pain-relieving medications. Sources of salivates include cinnamon, turmeric, peppermint, oranges, raisins, blueberries and honey.

Here's the problem None of these "alternative blood thinners" can do what warfarin does. If they could, physicians would use them. None of these "alternative blood thinners" can "thin the blood" to anywhere near the degree or with anywhere near the potency as coumadin. Moreover, there are now other drugs designed to have similar effects as coumadin, albeit through different mechanisms, drugs that don't require the close monitoring that coumadin does. One example is Plavix and related drugs.

So why call warfarin rat poison in such a blaring headline and repeatedly in this article, as Johnson does? Yes, it's true. You got us! Coumadin/warfarin was (and still is) used as rat poison! You brilliant Mike Adams drones! We evil pharma minions can't pull one over on you!

So what if coumadin is rat poison?

All drugs are poisons, and that's OK. They couldn't work if they weren't poisons. It's the nature of the poison—and the dose—that determines their usefulness, and all drugs have risks to go along with their benefits. Damn that nuance.

oracknows Thu, 04/07/2016 - 00:30

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interracial hemorrhages

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

Intracranial, I suppose.

The compound responsible for bleeding – dicumerol – was discovered in 1934.

"1934"? Heaven only knows what sources Johnson is using, but every other source says 1938-1940 for the isolation and identification of the chemical (patented in 1941).

It's a perfectly natural chemical, produced by fungi in damp clover silage; you'd think a NN author would be enthusiastically in favour of dicoumarol and its derivatives.

there are alternative blood thinners out there [...] vitamin C

Vit C, a blood thinner?
True, vitamin C is needed to make resilient blood vessels, but that's not the main problem of people in need of anti-coagulants.

Pro-tip: when your drain is clogged, wrapping duct-tape around your pipes isn't really going to help with your issue.

These m0r0ns are dangerous.

We have evolved brains with ingrained patterns of thought that deal most easily with medium-sized things, such as other brain-carriers, and medium durations, like hours or days. Even excluding the very large and very small, the world is pretty complicated, but holding such a blinkered perspective makes it easier to expect that any problem should have a simple solution, if one can only find it. Medicines may be poisons, but they're targeted poisons that can provide benefits far outweighing the costs. And that's more complexity than a lot of people will admit into their mental models of the world.

You may be overlooking an obvious possibility, herr doktor: Johnson meant "intercranial hemorrhage," where the patient is bleeding profusely between their heads. cf. Bill O'Reilly's "I would have put a bullet right between [Al Franken's] head."

"
In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999."

Interracial hemorrhages? I can't imagine what he really meant to say. Intracranial? Can you say Freudian slip?

@ hdb

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

What about "salivates"? I don't think Johnson is advising its lectorat to chew gun.

Did he mean "salicylates" - as in aspirin, with extra stomach ulcers?
(my own autocorrect says yes)

I learned from Agatha Christie novels that sodium citrate is an anticoagulant, useful for when you wish to splash around some unclotted blood and mislead investigators about the time when a murder occurred, but I will not vouch for its medicinal uses.

I don’t think Johnson is advising its lectorat to chew gun

Now I am unsure whether to put a sinister connotation on "chew gun", or ascribe it to Autocorrect.

Sources of salivates include cinnamon, turmeric, peppermint, oranges, raisins, blueberries and honey.

This may or may not make your mouth water.

Ah Warfarin. What an excellent product, far better than the alternative of blood clots causing strokes. If you ever want to get the full experience of being a lab rat, get a blood clot. Going for a 'natural' less effective drug is simply not an option in the circumstances.

The main side effect was not being able to consume alcohol. Bad, but still better than death.

Seriously people like S. Johnson need an intercranial organ transplant.

I am trying to work out what Johnson meant to write there before Autocorrect intervened.

Yeah, probably, as was pointed out, Johnson's attempt to type "intracranial" autocorrected to "interracial." OK, everyone. We all know that Johnson used "interracial" instead of "intracranial" for whatever reason. No further comment on this autocorrect faux pas is necessary. :-)

Oh, and crap. That link to Johnson's article is now going to the damned "Top ten scientific achievements of Natural News and the Health Ranger (so far)." I really do think Mike Adams has set up some sort of redirect to that article for traffic from this site. You might have to go to the link and find the Google cache. The original link:

http://www.naturalnews.com/053542_Warfarin_rat_poison_natural_alternati…

Google cache link:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uBtv2vgyVFwJ:www.n…

(I'm posting this under a different pseud because I don't want someone out there correlating my medical information with other data from my usual comments.)

This one gets me where I live.

I'm a survivor of two cases of deep vein thrombosis with pulmonary embolism. The first one very nearly killed me, as in, my blood pressure numbers were upside-down and two close friends had to carry me into the ER because I could barely walk. The doctor said I went in there "with two feet hanging over the grave" (I told him to be frank about what was up and whether it was going to kill me).

I expect to be taking my "rat poison" every day for the rest of my life, as it appears that if I don't, I'll be up for another DVT. Since DVTs have a 30% fatality risk, colloquial statistics (yeah I know) say I don't get a third one, or if I do, I don't live to tell the tale. I'm not scared of death as such, but all factors equal, I don't like thermodynamic equilibrium, so I'd sooner stick around for a few more decades.

The side-effects are minimal and manageable, plus or minus that not being able to ride a bicycle is annoying to my ecology ethics. Reduced risk of stroke is a benefit.

So how can I say this in G-rated language? Quacky Mikey and his pernicious pals can all go straight to Hell with a capital H. That article may discourage someone from taking warfarin, for whom it would make the difference between life and death. That makes Mikey and his buddy guilty of long-distance murder. Too bad they can hide behind the 1st Amendment, and here's to the day when that will no longer be possible.

Toads --- I'm also using a different alias than usual for the same reason as you -- too easy to correlate. I too had a pulmonary embolism - mine was much less severe, though it hurt like hell for a while. Felt like I'd broken a rib!

The ER response was to diagnose carefully and then send me home with a supply of fast-acting injectable anticoagulants and a scrip for coumadin. After a brief while I ended up on Eliquis (apixaban), which is way more expensive than coumadin but which doesn't require constant monitoring. My understanding is that its main downside is that it doesn't have an instant-off switch like coumadin (just inject vitamin K and coumadin stops working instantly), though the superb haemotologist I consulted with didnt' seem to think that was a very serious issue.

I'm a little surprised you can't ride a bike, unless it's because you were so severely weakened. Are they afraid you'll hit your head and get an intercranial (or is it "interracial"?) bleed?

Incidentally, if Big Pharma is conspiring to bilk us all by overcharging for coumadin, they're going about it very strangely, since it's cheap as dirt. It should be obvious to any properly conspiracy-minded observer that they were playing the long game -- first they gave us a cheap drug that works but has drawbacks, anticipating that they would develop much more expensive alternatives later. Do your own research, sheeple!

Mikey doesn't understand that whole dose/ poison thingie:
a few days ago he posted that a food additive common in meat products is being used to kill feral hogs. Actually, he doesn't mind the feral hogs that traipse about his ranch. He probably feels for rats as well.

At any rate, the other loon @ prn instructs his enraptured audience to make up a rescue packet of supplements to always carry with them in case they might feel a heart attack or a stroke coming on:
garlic capsules, mega-doses of vitamin C, cayenne pepper, CoQ 10 etc. NEVER take an aspirin he scolds. No directions concerning doctors or hospitals either.
( I've heard this with variants involving which supplements a few times- but always with C, garlic and cayenne)

So I imagine that if someone followed his sage advice he or she would be saved and not need any medical services or else not be around long enough to sue him.

Speaking of mega-doses of vitamin C, there is something that has been on my mind lately: I suffer from severe iron deficiency. It is so bad that I regularly have to visit the hospital so that they can give my some sort of iron "slurry" via IV.

Recently I've been reading that taking vitamin C together with iron greatly boosts the uptake of iron. I purchased some iron tablets as well as one of those vitamin C tubes of "pucks" you dissolve in water. However, a singe "puck" contains 1000% of your daily intake of Vitamin-C! That is a whole lot and I am reluctant to go through with it because of it.

As we all know, vitamin C is a favoured "wonder drug" of the alt-med movement and as such I am having a very, veeeery hard time finding any accurate information on taking so much of it... help?

I've heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete. :/

What I am worried about is that ONE "puck" has 1000%(!) of the daily recommended dose of vitamin C!

I’ve heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete.

A kidney stone made of concrete would probably be extra-painful.

*badum-tish!*

@ Amethyst:

My handy dandy nutrition guide says that vitamin C doesn't seem to be toxic in doses of up to 5000 mg per day although people have ingested much more for long periods of time without apparent problems
BUT it can interfere with absorption of other nutrients/ meds, alter results of certain medical tests and cause gastrointestinal distress. People who take huge doses and then cutback may get "rebound scurvy"**

One of the loons I survey thinks nothing of prescribing doses of 20000 mg per day ( or even greater- 100K- if by IV).

** how's that for a band name?

Too much water daily is toxic. So is too high a concentration of oxygen, especially when scuba diving. Gah. If we had too little gravity on planet Earth, we'd be drifting off. Too much and we'd be crushed. Too much sunlight can lead to skin cancer. Too little sun exposure can cause a vitamin D deficiency. I suspect many of these quacks know and understand these nuances. For them, however, it's easier and much more profitable to prey on those who don't, scaring them with the toxins gambit over and over and over.

I’ve heard rumours of kidney stones, but again nothing concrete.

Reminds me of a joke one of my professors in college would tell once a year, and only after constant badgering from the class. It was called "the wolf joke"

Q: What's grey, covered in fur, made of cement and howls at the moon?

A: A wolf.

(the cement is to make the joke harder)

Chris -- I'll have to remember that next time I write an exam question.

@ Chris Hickie

Like this wolf?
http://www.directdutch.com/2013/07/word-of-the-day-weerwolf-werewolf/
http://www.ingridrollema.nl/ingrid/bidhww.htm

Not made of concrete, but of bronze.

Maybe we should stop eating garlic (a popular alt remedy) because it is a Poison! (it has anti platelet activity, and the AAFP suggests patients on a high daily garlic dose stop taking it 7-10 days before surgery due to risk of bleeding complications:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0701/p103.html

An article in today's Wall St. Journal could fan the flames of the garlic woo-troversy. It highlights a vegan preschool, and mentions another that "bans what it calls "static foods" such as garlic and onions, which its director said 'aggravate the calmness of the mind'".

This is an obvious explanation for why many ancient cultures that valued garlic and onions died out, as well as why Mexico and Italy are not major world powers.

@Amethyst: yes, vitamin C *can* help with the absorption of some oral iron preparations. As a midwife, we recommended our patients take any iron with orange juice (or other juice), and used to prescribe an iron/vit C combo for those who were anemic. Drug names are escaping me and I have to run to a MD appointment or I'd google and list.

Don't Jains ( or Sikhs?) ban garlic and onions as well?

Can't look it up now-
also things that look like blood?

# 23 Dangerous Bacon

It highlights a vegan preschool, and mentions another that “bans what it calls “static foods” such as garlic and onions, which its director said ‘aggravate the calmness of the mind'”.

I would have thougth one would want the little rugrats to be excited and curous about the world around them. Still it reduces the stress on staff if the kids are a bit zombie-like.

This is an obvious explanation for why many ancient cultures that valued garlic and onions died out, as well as why Mexico and Italy are not major world powers.

If I remember the cook-book I was reading last night, China seems to use a lot of garlic and seems to be a world power again. Maybe the chilis and soy sauce counteracts the garlic effect?

BTW for those interested in Chinese cooking--and did not grow up in China--I highly recommend the book "Every Grain" of Rice by Fuchsia Dunlop.

#26 Denice Walter
Re onions and garlic
Jains
http://www.jainfoodie.com/jain-food-restrictions/

My mom had double knee replacement several years ago then experienced a DVT and pulmonary embolism. She will be on Coumadin for life. My dad recently had his aortic valve replaced. He will also be on Coumadin for life. I am grateful for their lives and for the lifesaving effects of these drugs. Mikey and crew can go and smoke it.
Amethyst - I thought that excess vitamin C is quickly eliminated in the urine, and that it is fairly non-toxic. So you should be OK, taking the doses as long as you don't go crazy.

Let's not forget the Coumadin/coumarin OMG WORDS SO SIMILAR issue, which stops those of us in the U.S. from using delicious tonka beans and cheap Mexican "vanilla extract."

But it's from a PLANT how could it be DANGEROUS (*cough*)

The discussion of garlic and onions recalls a fine memory, where I was invited to an Iranian family's table.
The appetizer was raw garlic and onions, to which I dug in as eagerly as the rest, to their surprise. This American has a love of spicy foods, rather than our reputation for bland foods. :)
I'd enjoy another appetizer like that again, but it might result in a divorce. ;)
No medicinal claims were made, it was a companionable meeting of the family of a friend and neighbor.

But, poisons... Garlic and onion are lethal to cats, chocolate is lethal to dogs, we oddly then concern ourselves with the welfare of rats.
Or something. As long as that something is sold by the one issuing the "warning".
I'm reminded that I've had my dosage of really nasty poisons reduced, in the case of metoprolol, from 300 mg to 200 mg and likely soon, to 100 mg per day. That's due to the methimazole being raised from 20 mg twice a day to 25 mg once, 20 mg the second dose.
For those not knowing, the latter is an anti-thyroid hormone drug, it prevents thyroid hormones from being made. Great in those with hypothyroid, not great to those with healthy thyroids, it'd be a poison eventually.
Metoprolol is a beta blocker, 300 mg is a rather strong dose, toxic as all get out to a healthy human that isn't hypertensive! Total poison there and beta blockade can be a life threatening emergency. But, the dose makes the poison, otherwise it's medicine.

One person was quite relieved to learn that when prescribed Lasix (furosemide) for heart failure, that it was also used in race horses to make them supposedly run faster, but the person had to stay away from the salt lick. Became the afternoon tea conversation for anyone willing to listen. Never saw veterinary applications of the whole host of drugs used on animals presented by Mikey. Should be good for a firestorm or did it happen and I missed it?.

Then there was the joke birthday gift of a box of Warfarin bought at the garden center to confirm to the recipient what the doctor truly thought of his patient with coumadin. The recipient fortunately found it hilarious, as did the prescribing physician when it was brought up.

Overheard at introduction to pharmacology " one as*burn is the same as the next as*burn" done in the sort of appropriate drawl.

Well, doctor and I did discuss the relative merits of using rat poison, erm, anticoagulants for my atrial flutter.
Fortunately, that seems to be rapidly resolving as my BP and pulse remain within human limits and hopefully, the moderate LVH should resolve as well.

Damn! I'm fresh out of dog poison, aka chocolate! I'll have to run off to the store and get some.

Round here, the warfarin-rat poison connection is well known by people taking it, and, apart from offering the opportunity for a bit of ribbing, is accepted as perfectly in order. Often it's been the prescribing doctor who tells them, jokingly. No need to be furtive about it.

I've been told that what makes warfarin effective as rat poison is that it's fairly slow-acting, so the critters go away after ingesting and die somewhere else. Rats are not that dumb, and avoid eating where there's dead rats decaying, so laying out quick-acting poison would only kill one rat.

Don’t Jains ( or Sikhs?) ban garlic and onions as well?

Vaishnavas do (as well as mushrooms). They're considered tamasic foods.

Without garlic and onions, pasta sauce is merely tomatoes and basil. ;)

I find that duel therapy 9.5 mg/kg ACA + 181 mg/kg EToH to be a superior blood thinning elixir.

It has the additional efficacy of increasing absorbtion of the EToH while decreasing it's metabolism so that one gets a grin again and again. Also, it lets any excess bad blood harmlessly spew out through one's jejunum.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B…
This woman was diagnosed in 1998 with stage IV breast cancer and as far as I could get, she discovered in the gardening shop that her chemo drug had been used also as pesticide (active component was the same, I think) and she is still very much alive. Actually she started writing during the period of chemo. She could have chosen a quack, because the first oncologist she met had been very rude, but luckily she did not, and she is outspoken advocate for real medicine.

Chinese Buddhists don't eat garlic, either. And maybe onions, I can't recall.

Damn! I’m fresh out of dog poison, aka chocolate! I’ll have to run off to the store and get some.

One of our dogs is a fiend for chocolate, to the point where we no longer eat it in her presence. The drooling is beyond the pale.

Peter @ #33
Rats also can't vomit, so even if they feel awful after eating something they are stuck with it. It's amazing how fast they learn to avoid the bait, even if the rat unlucky enough to ingest the warfarin moves away from the bait. Rats ain't stupid.

It just occurred to me: I hope the Food Babe does not decide to branch out into medicines. Mikey is bad enough but she a) commands a very large audience, b) is totally clueless about silly things like chemistry and biology and c) apparently likes to sell things.

She could kill a lot of people in no time.

Without garlic and onions, pasta sauce is merely tomatoes and basil.

The Vaishnava substitute is asafoetida. I doubt that it would play well in Italian cuisine, though.

Heck, the warfarin-rat poison connection was referenced on an episode of Arrow a couple of years ago. It's hardly an unknown thing. Granted, the person making the connection on the show (and grabbing the poison to act as an emergency blood thinner) was a chemist and forensic scientist named Barry Allen...

Of course, Gilbert must have meant ~1700 mg/kg of EToH -- The stated low value was obviously not efficatious; It's possible he lives in a land that thinks a couple drinks warrants a moving violation and arrest... Sux to be him.

@ Amethyst #16

Please don't take this as a medical advice, but as a pharmacologist, I can tell you that Vitamin C is perhaps the least toxic vitamin you can think of, and you can't really overdose it. It is not stored, readily excreted in the urine. 10X the daily recommended intake (that is the minimum recommended) it not that much. Generally, you take greater care with liposoluble vitamins like A, D, E, K. Some group B vitamins have reversible side effects. In your case, I'd worry more about the iron than Vitamine C overdose.

It's probably one reason the quacks feel safe about I.V. vitamin C. Possible side effects are more related to the procedure than the compound itself (unless it is tainted). It is remarkable in its almost complete lack of toxicity.

Friend of mines elderly mother always tells us she's on rat poison when we visit, she thinks it's hilarious.

Peter Dugdale, I was taught that the need for rats to go and die elsewhere is an important component of any rat poison for the reason you cite in the biodeterioration class I took. As the person taking it was part of a unit that reseached such things I think it's very likely to be true

As I always like to do, I checked the NN store for the recommended natural alternatives. Mike sells cayenne tincture, vitamin C, tumeric tincture and honey. Cinnamon, peppermint, orange (peels) and blueberries are ingredients of various supplements and organic snacks. No raisins surprisingly, but he does sell grape seeds.

Never forget, Mike Adams is always in it for profit.

Zen Buddhist, shojin, cooking doesn't use garlic or onions (or shallots, leeks, and similar vegetables) - one of my Zen cookbooks says that strong-smelling vegetables such as these were "believed to promote sexual energy" and were therefore forbidden to monks. Seems to me like a good reason to eat them, but perhaps not in a monastery.

"It’s probably one reason the quacks feel safe about I.V. vitamin C. Possible side effects are more related to the procedure than the compound itself (unless it is tainted). It is remarkable in its almost complete lack of toxicity."

As with homeopathy. Their toxicity is only due to the patient using these rather than actual medicine, as Orac has written about many times.

@45 "It is not stored, readily excreted in the urine."

That's what I thought, so how on earth can mega-dosing Vitamin C be at all beneficial when the amounts your body doesn't need are going to be excreted away?

rs@49: Actually, I think you'll find homeopathy is extremely neurotoxic, rapidly and irreparably destroying all capacity for rational thought within those who imbibe it. Heck, even just being exposed to homeopathic blather for any length of time is enough to knock a good 20-40 points of one's own IQ. Nasty, nasty corrosive stuff.

I drove up 101 to the north end of the Olympic Peninsula this last weekend (went up to Hurricane Ridge). As I was driving along 101 there was sign saying, this way to Natural Health We have Hydrogen Water.

I am still trying to figure out what hydrogen water may be. I have a minor in physics/chemistry and can't figure it out. Is a third hydrogen somehow added to the water molecule, is hydrogen bubbled through water?

Can anyone define this substance.

Rich #52
Coincidentally (or maybe not), yesterday's post at "In The Pipeline" was all about hydrogen water. I direct you to it:
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2016/04/06/help-yourself-…

Warning--if you dare to click on the links contained within, do not park any liquids near your keyboard .....

@35 and 36,

There was a funny short film called "Too Much Oregano" that won a prize. At Cannes about the time our host was doing his undergrad work at Ym
Michigan.
Other involves a back and forth argument between a restaurant reviewer and the chef about the spaghetti sauce.

Regrettably it doesn't seem to be available for online viewing.

Our favorite food comment joke is "needs more garlic."

Of course, Gilbert must have meant ~1700 mg/kg of EToH

Of course, Mitzi Dupree #44; You queen of the ping pong, you. How's it working out with the ex and the self-medicating kids and all? Still jaundiced?

Oh how I wish the either french canadian or south african PgP would pop in and whoop me over the head with her metaphysical, bigoted bo stick -- High, the memory carried on....

Regarding Vitamin C, the only potential problems I remember hearing about it involve somebody doing megadoses for long periods of time and then stopping. Normally your body is extremely efficient at capturing (and re-capturing) Vitamin C and moving it around (it has to be since we don't produce it like most animals); but when you're on megadoses your body can just rely on diffusion and not bother with being too careful. The result is that if you stop taking megadoses cold turkey it can take some time for your body to stabilize its Vitamin C handling again.

Granted, this is half-remembered from years ago, so take that for what it's worth.

First things first: an interracial hemorrhage would be the result of a knife fight between me and Beautiful Rockin' Wife.
Second, a couple of squares of dark chocolate or a grape or two would be a undersized snack for me but would be enough to kill Old Rockin' Dog (A tragedy, there can never be too many cairn terriers in the world.).
Third, I had my mitral and aortic valves replaced in a single surgery, and it was precisely because of coumadin that I opted for bovine valves, well, that and I would go insane listening to two ball and cage valves clicking away for the rest of my life. Young Rockin' Daughter rocks the vegan thing hard but couldn't begrudge me anything as basic as my life. She finds solace in that my next set of valves will likely be printed instead of biological. Or does anyone know if there is a plant-based substitute for an aortic valve, maybe something to do with xylem, or phloem, or Venus flytraps? Or maybe Venous flytraps?

@ Rich: beats me. Hope some one knows.

For the past couple of years I've seen a product in grocery stores called "Waatah." It's water with oxygen injected into it.

I haven't bought a bottle to see if it is in fact hydrogen peroxide. Since it's incredibly toxic when ingested, I have to question the veracity of this company's claims.

WAY too much vitamin C can give you the runs, which a visiting friend learned after thinking my Halls vit. C drops would be good for a sore throat and going through the whole bag - I got home and she said "great, a cold AND g.i. illness at once" and I quickly went to get a bag of Ricola. It is very short term, just stop the excess C. I doubt a single puck will do that to ya, though, Amethyst.

@panacea - if you search for "oxygen water" you will find many brands. As well as debunking.

Now I want to pit the oxygen water and hydrogen water enthusiasts against each other. If we don't get a nice explosion from the reaction I will be disappointed but not surprised...

Now, I have nitrogen-oxygen water.
There's an aerator on every tap. :)

A well conceived article, Orac. No, really.

Wzrd1 -- You mean the air in your house is mostly nitrogen? Everyone knows nitrogen is worthless, and the air in any decent house should be 100% life-giving oxygen.

I'd demand a refund from the real estate agent, and tell him or her that Food Babe sent you. And maybe Gus Grissom.

Palindrom - No thanks, I have no desire to emulate Apollo 1 with a pure O2 fed fire, thank you. :)
I'll stick with the lower test version of air naturally found on this planet. I'll reserve Premium for medical emergencies and welding.
Besides, I'd suffer from a new form of oxidative stress when dinner burned in a high O2 atmosphere and I'm baking bread right now, burning it would upset me. ;)

P. Suede Onym @ 14:

For one thing, serious physical exertion for any length of time, or riding a bike even a mile, and I get blood in my urine. Annoying but manageable side-effect (unless someone here knows otherwise) since I can avoid the types of activity that cause it.

For another, any accident on a 2-wheeled vehicle that causes a whole-body impact (hitting the street) or head impact (even with helmet) = an ambulance ride to the ER to check for bleeding, which I can't afford. And if there's one thing in my life that I seek to protect above all others, it's the chunk of gray stuff between my ears, so yeah fear of intracranial bleeding. Thus no electric scooters either. However I have my work life mostly on telecommuting, and my gasoline consumption is about 1/4 of average for Americans, including both work and personal trips. (Climate denialism is the ultimate deadly quackery, so we all need to do what we can to reduce our impacts.)

Lucky you getting discharged quickly with injectable blood thinners. My first one cost me ten days in the ICU including three days of morphine (it didn't get me high and the only "withdrawal symptom" was the end of the constipation) and a week wearing a pressurized breathing mask ("hey do I look like an Air Force pilot?";-)

The second one got me an overnight in regular inpatient and then a 2-week supply of injectable Lovenox ("grab the flab and give yourself a jab";-) At which point I decided that if I went through life with only one inexpensive prescription to take every day, that would be OK, and all the better if it was a pill rather than a needle.

As for Evil Big Pharma, inexpensive lifesaving meds are part of Teh Conspiracy. Surely you know about Teh Conspiracy, to get us all believing in science-based medicine, so we won't buy homeoquack woo-water or ask for magical hand-waving over our hospital beds. Think of all the well-meaning fuzzbrains we're putting out of a job that way! Oh the humanity!

Mitzi Dupree: It’s possible he lives in a land that thinks a couple drinks warrants a moving violation and arrest… Sux to be him.
From what I've seen of Gilbert, his med of choice is a lot more potent than alcohol, though his general personality does not improve, no matter what substance he ingests. I suspect alcohol, marijuana and lsd which really ought not to be mixed. (Do your neurons a favor, one mind-altering substance per ingestion!)
As far as moving violations go, it depends on the drink, weight, and tolerance of the person. I've figured out a fairly surefire way to avoid tickets- it's called a bus.

Gilly boy: -1- - that's a middle finger. Sit and spin. It's kind of cute, really, how wrong you are about me. If you could find somewhere else to be stupid, that'd be great.

Michael Finfer, MD
Edison, NJ April 7, 2016”
In particular, the researchers found that the rate of interracial hemorrhages associated with the use of blood thinners in the Cincinnati area increased from 0.8 cases per 100,000 people in 1998, to 4.4 cases per 100,000 people in 1999.”

Interracial hemorrhages? I can’t imagine what he really meant to say. Intracranial? Can you say Freudian slip?

TO: Michael Finfer, M.D. and Orac: wow! and both of you are MD.'s ? eh?
Differences in Stroke Between White, Hispanic, and Native ...
stroke.ahajournals.org/content/29/1/29.full

Differences in Stroke Between White, Hispanic, and Native American Patients The Barrow Neurological Institute Stroke Database

Images for interracial hemorrhages
search.aol.com/aol/image
These images contain adult content.

See more images for interracial hemorrhages

Toads -- Ouch, sounds like you have poor insurance and probably not the best of care (on top of having a really awful PE the first time, unlike the much less destructive one I had).

I am (emphatically) not a doctor -- well, not a real doctor, merely a PhD -- but blood in the urine from modest exercise sounds like it's worth looking into. Hopefully you're getting your coagulation checked regularly, since that's pretty much required for Coumadin (that's the downside. It's cheap, but it's high-maintenance).

Also, two PEs without provocation is, well, worrying. Did they ever do a thromobosis screen to see if they can figure out why these happen to you? I got one that uncovered a mutation that elevates my risk by a factor of several, making it all that much less bizarre.

Gah! Perfect example of a little information being touted as absolute knowledge, and being absolutely dangerous.
Which of course, is the MO of Mikey and his ilk. As well as the 'buy my stuff'.

You know, I used to use a nitroglycerin spray under my tongue to control high blood pressure. Nitroglycerin! Big Evil Pharma had me taking dynamite! /sarcasm

Hydrogen water is obviously generated by joining atomic hydrogen into H2 in the presence of oxygen, which creates pure organic GMO-free free-range water that is cage- and cruelty free, without growth hormones or antibiotics, and free of BPA.

Opposed to dihydrogen monoxide which can be wicked deadly.

How do you find the time to write so many articles and do the doctor thing?

Because as a box of blinking lights, Orac suffers from none of the biological needs and wants of puny, fleshy human doctors.

Squirrelelite @54

Our favorite food comment joke is “needs more garlic.”

Crocodile Dundee?

We use that one a lot in as close to an Australian accent as 2 folk from the north east of England can manage (with apologies to Chris Preston and any other resident Ozzies).

@murmur, "needs more garlic" is a second joke, the only older joke is, "needs more barley".
The background on the barley joke was, early in our marriage, I wanted chicken stew and my wife wanted to make chicken soup. So, "It needs more barley", with barley subsequently added and hence, the soup turned into chicken barley stew.
I'm still infamous for using an entire onion of garlic in a batch of pasta sauce. That said, I make my sauce in batches of two gallons or so. The rest are canned in the pressure cooker or frozen (around a 30 - 70 mix or all canned, depending upon the season).

S. Johnson? There’s a disqus profile which uses that name:

https://disqus.com/by/disqus_sRBOQuvlcQ/comments/

They frequently post on a site called greenmedinfo.com, whose domain should self-explanatory.

If it’s not the same S. Johnson, then it’s a great philosophical doppelgänger. As expected, he’s anti-vaccine (according to some choice quotes from his profile):

"That does not mean that he is wrong. Natural immunity has been shown over and over to be superior to vaccination (artificial immunity). http://articles.mercola.com/si…”

"You are missing the point. How can you even quantify how many people did not die because of the vaccine??? There is no measurement, nor is there one showing how many people were killed or maimed by vaccines."

"Jeesh. People need to take care of themselves. Take plenty of vitamin C (2000 Mg / day), zinc, magnesium, iodine and vitamin D3. Your immune system will fight off just about anything if you give it what it needs. I haven't had the Flu in over 10 years and never get "The Shot". The worst I've had is a slight cold that lasted a couple days."

-Knows the true cure for Ebola and is a population reduction conspiracy fan:

"Cure for Ebola = High doses of Vitamin C or Intravenous Vitamin C. It's been known for years but is suppressed because the powers that be want less population."

-A chemtrail fan:

"There are whistle blowers and pictures of the inside of the Chemtrail planes. Just google it. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chemtrail...
There are also patents explaining the process. Now... not all planes that look equipped to spray are spraying but there have been whistle blowers and the patents do exist."

-& is apparently a bitter middle aged man who believes that us hormonal women can flip like a switch at any moment (better watch out):

"Women can flip a switch. 2/3rd's of divorces are initiated by Women in the U.S. Women are heavily influenced by society and men tend to be severely hurt emotionally while women mask and hide it. I speak from experience. 15 years of blissful marriage 90% of the time and one day, flip a switch. She even said that it was like a switch being flipped from 1 argument that lasted 20 minutes.”

"Women hold major grudges and never forget a mans mistakes. Ladies, you meed serious mental help. Stop treating men like Sh#t. We are not a meal ticket for you."

"Going that route now. Snipped years ago and now 41 and Separated and sure to be divorced. My wife shut off emotionally (Hormones?). May as well try for all that tail I didn't get in our 20 years together."

If it’s not the same S. Johnson, then it’s a great philosophical doppelgänger.
He sounds nice.

I'm feeling quite smug now as I've known that Warfarin is both a blood thinner and rat poison for around 30 years. Can't remember how that came up at school but clearly the UK education system is well ahead of the US in teaching children about effective and ineffective poisoning.

Incidentally, S. Johnson also seems to have plagiarised an article from askdrlouise.com who also seems a fairly cranky character but in a slightly more scientific way. I can't decide if that's better or worse.

Ah, Paracelsus. My favorite alchemist.

Yep, he knew all about "the dose makes the poison." So much, in fact, he needed to prove it to everyone. So he and his brother alchemists decreed that alcohol was the Elixir of Life. He started drinking heavily, and subsequently died of liver disease.

Gee, an alcoholic who dies of liver disease. Too high of a dose, man.

“Women can flip a switch. 2/3rd’s of divorces are initiated by Women in the U.S. Women are heavily influenced by society and men tend to be severely hurt emotionally while women mask and hide it. I speak from experience. 15 years of blissful marriage 90% of the time and one day, flip a switch. She even said that it was like a switch being flipped from 1 argument that lasted 20 minutes.”

“Women hold major grudges and never forget a mans mistakes. Ladies, you meed serious mental help. Stop treating men like Sh#t. We are not a meal ticket for you.”

“Going that route now. Snipped years ago and now 41 and Separated and sure to be divorced. My wife shut off emotionally (Hormones?). May as well try for all that tail I didn’t get in our 20 years together.”

Does he have an online dating profile? Asking for a friend.

That Gilbert is a scoundrel, Politicalguineapig.

It was 1996 when my father, a cop, cited him for driving on a section of interstate they had closed to practice "unconventional ticketing tactics". Well he blurted out in court that he was going to "pimp out your son to pay for this!"

He did just that; He pimped out my douchebag brother and he pimped me out as well. I learned...stuff...about myself that I had not ever even dreamed of before; The least of which, age of consent laws are stupid. It's been a love/hate relationship between us ever since.

After Joey manned up and quit peeing on people, they sort of bonded as they're both weed feinds. Daddy didn't look at me 'that way' anymore, like it was my fault or something that I got pimped. My father accidentally blew off his pecker in the mens courthouse restroom and subsequently O.D.'d on Tylenol as he was adamant against any kinds of mind altering drugs; especially if it would cause one to be in a state of relaxation or relieve pain -- He spent his whole career depriving others of such; He was no hypocrite.

Love him and hate him, he gives me stuff, ya know?

He knows how to broaden one's horizons, Politicalguineapig. Even if they're too trashed to remember just how they got broadened.

@Delphine at 79: Does he have an online dating profile? Asking for a friend. With friends like you... :p

@MI Dawn, some friends are extremely considerate. They even save one the trouble of going out to meet new enemies, fulfilling the duties themselves. ;)

-Once the pin is pulled, Mr Grenade is no longer your friend.
Anonymous

Mitzi Dupree: Ok, you're obviously Gilly-boy's sock puppet, so don't talk to me again. I'm glad you are far away from me, as I think people in your vicinity are in danger of losing brain cells from the contagious stupid. Also, dude, I could totally take you.

Thanks for all the advice, people. I decided to give it a go.

Let the placebo-effect commence!

"'Fortunately, there are alternative blood thinners out there without the dangerous side effects anchored to prescription drugs.'"
Um...that doesn't make any sense. It's worth noting that if any substance (cinnamon, sunlight, or snake oil) could thin the blood, it too would have the risk of increased bleeding. As Orac says, how could it not? It is the sine qua non of being a blood-thinner!

Well, Doc, there is always magic, mysticism and mayhem or something.
Or there's the, "Oh, it's natural and it can't hurt you". To the latter crowd, I'd happily provide them with a fine Jimson weed tea and discuss it in detail. Other herbs might harm them, what I'd make wouldn't be well controlled dose wise, but properly diluted to only cause mild atropinization.

I have a kitchen cabinet full of different herbal teas. They're not there as any form of medication, they're there for their taste. :)
If I need medicine, I see my doctor.

Is S. Johnson's first name Bloody?

but properly diluted to only cause mild atropinization.

You never know when you might be accidently exposed to nerve gas, it's always wise to have some atropine on hand as an antidote.

Yeah, but without pralidoxime chloride, isn't the point rather moot? :/
Although, I do admit, there is some question about efficacy of pralidoxime chloride, it should still unbind non-central nerve junction acetylcholinesterase.

I had surgery, chemo and radiation for my Stage 4 cancer, and I am glad to say, am living to tell about it.

I (yeah!) just had my port removed and I joked every time they flushed it with Heparin that they were giving me rat poison. No one told me until a year or so later that Heparin != Warfarin. Oops.

Let's not have anyone tell these loons that even pure water, in high enough doses, can be poisonous. Good old H2O has a mean lethal dose of 90 g / kg of body weight.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

@Anonymous Coward, true enough. I recall several case reports each year of fitness types dying from water intoxication.
They learn of the wonders of hydration, but fail to continue studying the matter and learn of the perils of water intoxication.
It's just another object lesson of moderation in all things is good, excess in anything can be lethal.

I calculated that I would need 6930g of water to poison myself to extinction...

Alain

addendum: and no, I don't have any desire to poison myself to any of that degree.

Half that weight in good dark chocolate would take out a good sized child or a smallish lady. It's better to go out doing something you love!

addendum: and no, I don’t have any desire to poison myself to any of that degree.
Indeed. One more reason to stick to beer.

H2O must be diluted before drinking.

Absolutely right, Daniel Corcos.
I prefer to dilute my H2O with ETOH. ;)

@HDB,

Agreed for beer but I am on the lookout for another, more healthy addiction because I'm looking at that:

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/application-process/what-we-look

Work in progress but if I get in, that will be my 41st birthday gift to myself in September 2017.

Alain

Best of luck!

HDB,

Thanks you very much. I've mulled over the plan (and several other) for some years but now's the time I give myself a solid jackboot in the *ss and do it :)

Alain

I prefer to dilute my H2O with ETOH.

Precisely, Wzrd1 #100. There is no 'ask your doctor if' for the condition of having too much blood in ones' alcohol stream. The mind boggles.

Fuck PgP,
Feel the Bern,
9-11 was an inside job.

9-11 was an inside job.

Umm...Okay, if it float your boat. Want some more inside job, vote for Trump :D

Alain, I've learned to just let the assholes believe what they want. They won't even listen to an explosive demolition expert about what is required for controlled demolition of structures, their delusion is quite fixed.
Just another spectacular case of Kruger-Dunning.

Wzrd1,

Don't worry, my comment was sarcasm & mildly dark humor which I do a hell of a lot on daily basis. I, basically, never go against human nature; it open up too many cans of worm otherwise. I was only having fun.

Al, dark humor is common in ED personnel and EMS. :)
Add the military side, my humor is quite dark.

Wzrd1,

I know, these professions take a friggen huge toll on the mental well-being of these professionals (which I include you). I think I'd love your humor if I were to pay you a beer in real life :)

Alain

I’ve mulled over the plan (and several other) for some years but now’s the time I give myself a solid jackboot in the *ss and do it

Unsolicited advice: Don't go for the one-egg, one-basket approach. I'm reminded of a Kazakh prodigy for whom I did some happy Englishifying. It's not really parallel, but he wound up going for the UMass Boston Navitas program (financial aid, I have no idea about).

Gil: Bernie doesn't want morons like you. Vote for Trump or Jesse Ventura, as they are closer to your mental capacity and Trump, like you, supports rape and incest. And fuck you too.

"They won’t even listen to an explosive demolition expert"

Doh k, Wzrd1 #106

...This is controlled demolition.

You're sure?

Absolutely, it's been imploded. This was a hired job, performed by a team of experts.

-- Danny Jowenko, a demolitions expert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMdLVw3AsV4#t=21

July 16, 2011

Danny Jowenko, one of world's leading building demolition experts, was killed in a one-car accident last week when his car slammed into a tree. Jowenko received international attention as the expert who unequivocally described the collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center on 911 as a "demolition." Jowenko made the judgment before he knew it was WTC7 he was watching on the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtbRd6gzFWk

Pull it

-- Larry Silverstein, owner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p34XrI2Fm6I

9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98

WTC7 won't go away.

""like you, supports rape and incest.

Thx, PgP #111. I'd not realized that I supported*(**) those things until now; before feeling compelled to cringe low before the awesome awareness of eclectic enlightened edification you emetically eminate out of your esteemed emissarial role.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_Tennent#Emissarial_role

*Incest is a family affair -- No place for government interdictions.

**Parker Brothers' Incest™: A Game For the Whole Family might deserve a little minarchian Randinan love, only if one supports the TPP and Steve and Jills' DMCA takedown request.

WTC7 won’t go away.

It already did. It caught fire, burned down, fell down, and the rubble was carted away.

"Danny Jowenko, one of world’s leading building demolition experts, was killed in a one-car accident last week when his car slammed into a tree."

Because people never get killed in one-car accidents, right?

And because a conspiracy so powerful as to destroy the World Trade Center and damage the Pentagon would totally wait ten years to off someone who isn't even laying low, right?

So, 2/3 of the structural supports were removed in secret, nobody noticed the immense fleet of dump trucks with the remnants of the support columns, nobody noticed the noise of removing those concrete and rebar columns and thermite burns sideways because of antigravity.
Gotya. Antigravity and magic.

WTC7 went away, in many, many dump trucks. My cousin died in the south tower, so fuck you with a 40mm bore brush.

""It already did. It caught fire, burned down, fell down, and the rubble was carted away.

Suppose some father's kid, let us say 'Robin' just for shits and giggles, was deadified, drained, dressed, dug a hole, dropped in, and dirged -- One's own mental health prudence says 'forget about it'.

Calli Arcale: And because a conspiracy so powerful as to destroy the World Trade Center and damage the Pentagon would totally wait ten years to off someone who isn’t even laying low, right?

Personally, I think Dick Cheney would be a lot more creative. What always bugs me about 9/11 conspiracy theories is that these people seem to have forgotten one very important thing- Bush was one of the stupidest presidents we ever had. One of my great grand-dad's favorite sayings was 'never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.' or more bluntly, 'there are many fools in the world.'

one of world’s leading building demolition experts

So famous an authority that no-one the Intertubes had never heard of him prior to 9/11 truther conspiracies.

Jowenko received international attention as the expert who unequivocally described the collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center on 911 as a “demolition.”

Oh joy, even the conspiracy addicts admit that the guy was unknown, and that they have appointed him as The Expert precisely because he said what they wanted to hear.

o.k. herr doktor bimler; It was fires. Did I leave the stove on? Because I'd hate for a skyscraper to come down on thousands of people because of my burnt brisket -- So easy.. Maybe that's why it was deemed unsafe to release the 911 Omission Report's building 7 findings.

Ohh. Also, no concrete and steel skyskrapers ever fell due to fires before 9/11 or since 9/11... Perhaps it was a biblical sign of something that they did so??? Do that funky hand job wave...

Since 9/11, how many jet aircraft have slammed into concrete and steel buildings?
Do you even know what jet fuel is? High grade kerosene, which atomized and ignited, thereby igniting crushed desks and paperwork.
No, it's all magic and bullshit, can't be what the report fucking said, it's really a dismantled building, secretly dismantled at that, with the rubbish being teleported away from the site.

And minarets can be brought down by what?? Some towel-headed broad that left a candle on, that's what. I'll remember that next time I need to get away clean with dropping somebody's rock-hard, phallic tower.

""my god, it's full of structual fail" -- 9/11 ommission report

Unsolicited advice: Don’t go for the one-egg, one-basket approach. I’m reminded of a Kazakh prodigy for whom I did some happy Englishifying. It’s not really parallel, but he wound up going for the UMass Boston Navitas program (financial aid, I have no idea about).

Narad,

I'm not sure your statement compute well enough for me to understand it but from what I understand, I can explain that the Latin alphabet don't contain enough letter for me to cover all of the plans I think about or dream of but that said, I'm working on the probability of success for all of them.

Alain

the Latin alphabet don’t contain enough letter for me to cover all of the plans I think about or dream of

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

Gilly-boy: Suppose some father’s kid, let us say ‘Robin’ just for shits and giggles, was deadified, drained, dressed, dug a hole, dropped in, and dirged — One’s own mental health prudence says ‘forget about it’.

I realize you are astonishingly dim, but that's a new depth of stupid. Do you not understand what fiction is? Of course not, you're too dumb to even understand insults, so it's no wonder you are confused by history. Or for that matter, the difference between jet fuel and a candle.

Well, good, I'm glad to know that buildings cannot be destroyed by fire. Guess I should cancel that insurance.

I'm going to say a little about 9/11 and I won't engage with any responses, pro or con. I go down the rabbit hole with things more immediate quite enough.
First, what aim would be worth the risk of being caught in something so monstrous? A war in Iraq? Don't joke with me like that. I might break a rib laughing. If "they" needed a cassus belli they could have cooked one up much simpler than that one. Hitler only needed about two dozen SS men and two dead political prisoners to "justify" invading Poland.
A conspiracy of the size needed to do all the things that conspiracists claim would by necessity have to involve many thousands of people, all of whom would have to be let in on pieces of the puzzle, and many of whom would after the fact have attacks of conscience or potentially have had relatives or friends among the dead and maimed. No one could possibly monitor so many people in so many places all the time; credible firsthand witnesses would by now be all over the place. It would be a big arrow pointing to a conspiracy for so many whistleblowers to start having "unfortunate accidents".
The Pentagon was a target in the attacks, so why was Donald Rumsfeld in his office when the plane hit the Pentagon? If he was in on it, he would have made himself scarce well before. If he wasn't, he would have found out the truth soon enough, and a pissed-off Secretary of Defense is a seriously dangerous enemy, with vast resources to draw on. Donald Rumsfeld may be a lot of things, but stupid was never one of them.
If NORAD was ordered to stand down, why didn't the one-third of its personnel, including the deputy commander, who were from Canadian Forces rat the whole thing out? Publicized by the CBC or the Globe and Mail, it would be a devastating scandal. Revealed to the PM in a private briefing, it would give him immense blackmail power over the White House. There is no good evidence of the latter ever having been exercised.
WTC 7 was built around an electrical substation, meaning that there was a four-story enclosed space in the center front where there were no supporting columns other than at the sides. It was inherently flawed, and when the heat caused the steel to weaken it couldn't hold.
If you look at films of controlled demolition, and that's one of my aspie enthusiasms, you will never see one come down from the top, only from the ground level, and the Towers would each have needed thousands of separate charges placed on structural elements to bring down in a controlled way.
Some claim that Flight 93 was brought down by a Customs or similar agency plane, either with missiles or guns. Someone would have to notice a Falcon or Learjet with a pair of twenty-foot-long Sidewinders or a pair of 20 mm gun pods under its wings, let alone the fact that modifying a business jet to carry weapons would require extensive complex modifications that someone would notice. Making the intercept with a plane not inherently faster than a large commercial airliner while carrying several extra tons of not very aerodynamic armaments would be a pretty piece of flying.
So here you have a few of my thoughts on the matter. One thing we can all do is to use common sense analysis with what we already know.

My late uncle told this story:
after the attack on the towers, he was frequently called by people mistaking him for his son ( a well-known engineer who designed systems in high rises) because they wanted commentary/ grist for their conspiracy mills. My cousin refused any interviews, including from legitimate reporters on television: he was already bothered enough at his work by people who wanted to write books/ make documentaries to have his name made more well-known.

#16 Amethyst
I've been taking Vit C in megadoses( 1,000-2,000 mgs) for over 45 years. No joint pain (I'm 73) and do most of the Yoga poses w/o blocks. Just lucky so far I guess.

""can’t be what the report fucking said

I also would be interested to see what the report fucking said -- that part was classified because releasing the report would "jeopardize public safety".

""Since 9/11, how many jet aircraft have slammed into concrete and steel buildings?

Though I was limiting my scope to building 7 which was not hit by any plane,

a 1945 aircraft accident in which a B-25 Mitchell bomber, piloted in thick fog over New York City, crashed into the Empire State Building. The accident did not compromise the building's structural integrity, but it did cause fourteen deaths

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-25_Empire_State_Building_crash
============================

Tomorrow is the anniversary of the Waco massacre; I just wanted to remind people that "non-pyrotechnic" literally means "no fire method" should be used to disperse the CS powder because it was highly flammable.

Tomorrow is also the anniversary of the Murrah Federal massacre. We never got to see even one record of the many surveillance cameras and devices aimed toward that building; We never questioned the semantics of kids at kindergarden as to why they walked around chanting "Boom, Boom".

ken, I have not taken bunches of Vit C for 45 years. I don't have joint pain either. I'm only a dozen years younger than you.

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

32 letters right? Maybe it could fill the bill.

Alain

Perhaps you would like to borrow the Cyrillic alphabet?

There (used to, probably) exist a rule in a journal that shall remain unnamed in which affiliations were to be set with romanization so long as it didn't involve some sort of crazy script from Yellow People.* Oh, and street abbreviations were not allowed.**

I once dutifully performed this task to spec with Armenian, IIRC. (My recall may not be so hot, but I just may have the table I used stashed away somewhere; I needed a Rollaboard® and then some to clear out during the failed dénouement, though. Did manage a kitten rescue during the last day, though.)

* It was actually more complicated.
** N.b. "ul." is not straightforward.

#131 Chris- you missed the point. I was answering #16- (if you weren't so trigger happy but I guess that's what you are paid for)
I meant I had no problems. I don't care if people take it or not- Drs say food should supply it. My mother lived to 95 w/o taking vitamins.

#131 How much are you paid to comment? These posts are
hilarious in their repetition of the party line.

ken: "Chris- you missed the point. I was answering #16"

Why should I care? Especially since you think I am paid to post my little anecdote. Which I posted so that you know that your anecdote is not data. Does that sound familiar.

Are you paid by those who sell Vitamin C pills? You must be a Vitamin C pill shill.

By the way, the longevity of your mother is probably a better anecdote than you consuming lots of vitamins and making very expensive urine. Your supplement store must love you, well not you.. they love your money.

By the way, it is has been fairly warm here this week. So I got my Vitamin C by lemon in tea, and actually eating fruit. I also munched lots of lovely veg that included my garden asparagus, kale and chard. Plus some the coleslaw (cabbage!), and the lovely potato salad with lots of sweet onion (who know onion was a really good source of Vitamin C).

I'm a shill for fruit and veggies. Especially since I have an edible garden. I had lots of garden parsley and oregano for chimichurri this weekend. Last year's kale is going to seed, but that okay because that means lots more volunteer plants. The apricot, cherry and pear trees are all setting some good fruit. I am still waiting on the persimmon and apples.

ken, would you like some good leads on nutritious food you can grow on your own? Herbs are super easy, and they pack lots of nutrients in a small package (and they are the reason I can make chicken and beef stock with very little salt).

Seriously, why would I want to go to a store to buy pills when I can spend time a garden growing really healthy food? If I am a shill for anything (and no one pays me), it would be for learning how to grow and cook your own healthy food. Something I have been doing for almost forty years.

Hey, Chris, can you e-mail attach some of that garden asparagus? My garden's just getting started, after being briefly stunted by a surprise frost.
I'll have to pass on the kale though, my endocrinologist told me flat out not to eat it yet. :/
Annoyingly, not a single musk melon or honeydew seed sprouted. :(
My corn seeds are also a lot dodgy this year, with one out of six plantings actually germinating.
Tomatoes, peppers and spices are all growing nicely though. :)

Sorry for the late night bad grammar. The most glaring bit: "(who knew onion was a really good source of Vitamin C?)."

ken, work on your diet. If you don't want to grow your own, at least visit your local farmer's market for fresh local produce (it is time for morel mushrooms... yum!). Figure out what is or is not in season. Learn how to cook. Don't get your nutrients through pills made in a factory.

"Tomatoes, peppers and spices are all growing nicely though."

Aaargh... the leeks, basil, dill and sunflowers are sprouting, but not the peppers. Those are in the greenhouse.

In our area it is too soon to do corn (but I have the seeds ready). Plus, sadly, we are too far north to grow melons. Which is odd because our maritime climate allows us to grow oregano, thyme, sage, bay laurel (it is a 20' tree!), and rosemary through our mild drippy winters. Our summers are just too short. We don't put tomatoes, beans or peppers out until late May/early June.

Hey, a day in the garden beats any minute in a supplement store. You don't know what you are missing, ken.

We just relocated to the Shreveport region, so earlier growing conditions are the norm. We had one surprise frost after I had put the plants into the ground, but it appears that the plants are recovering nicely.
The radishes are already close to harvest size. Hanged if I know the story with the melons and corn, I've never had such problems with seeds in the past.
Back when I retired from the Army, I started contracting for DoD and I had a super garden going in the Persian Gulf. Corn, watermelon, spices galore (I also learned, never put mint near basil, they'll cross-pollinate), peppers, tomatoes, green beans, peas, cucumbers (the version of cucumber common in the region is more like a gerkin, so our Arabian neighbors were astounded with our US sized cucumbers) and more.
I had gotten that garden started from the soil up, as it was a hole in the corner of our yard. I filled it in with soil/droppings from the livestock market, cat litter for clay binder and peat moss. We also had excellent pollinators in the local bees, which the first time I saw a nest, I was shocked - they have exposed combs and the bees cover them with their bodies.
It makes sense, a hive like we have here in the US and Europe would stifle in 120 degree temperatures.
I'll be spending my "weekend" in the yard for sure. The garden needs weeding badly and the neighbor's tree dropped a foot wide branch on our fence, crushing 8 feet of it and we're expecting rain until at least Thursday. :/
What I was going to spend on a lawnmower will now be going for a chainsaw. :(
Oh well, I still don't have the strength back yet to be mowing the yard, my thyroid caused quite a bit of muscle wasting and moderate left ventricular hypertrophy. Heaven save us from the retaliation of a thyroid enraged by the immune system!
I am taking protein supplements, per doctor's orders, to rebuild muscle mass again. Oh well, nothing reconditions one like doing yard work and fence repair!
Plus rebuilding my server farm, now that we've relocated. Fileservers aren't light beasts. :)

I also learned, never put mint near basil, they’ll cross-pollinate

Even worse, the very smell of mint will "antidote" homeopathic remedies. I regret that I'm not going to go digging for whether the Steinerites have a formal stance.

Heh, one other plant that I planted is usually considered a weed, horsemint. It makes an excellent tea.
Another plant is referred to as "Saudi mint", a slightly mint flavored plant as well, makes a wonderful tea.

I have a full kitchen cabinet full of teas of various sorts, largely herbal, for taste, not "medicine".
Well, save chamomile tea, which is mildly effective for my hypertension and was studied by U of P some time back.
The rest, for wonderful tastes. Aroma isn't relevant for me, as I don't have a sense of smell, in a way meaningful for humans. Seriously rotten food (such as a fridge without power for a month), ammonia and high proof ethanol are what I can detect.
But, I seem to also be a "super taster", an excessive number of receptors on my tongue, which allows me to huff and taste an aroma to some extent.
The lack of a sense of smell has also contributed to my food poisoning lack of sensitivity. I've not smelled food being off often enough to frequently get food poisoning and hence, I'm moderately resistant. One important point is, if I'm rapidly sickened, it's probably norovirus.
For the rest, if I'm sickened, it's mild "hershey squirts", overall and minimal vomiting. Everyone else is down hard.
That came in handy tracing a food borne infection some years back. While we suspected the cause, following the epidemiologist's questionnaire scientifically proved the source was one cook that attempted to scramble eggs in a humongous pot, the result was runny, salmonella infected, partially cooked eggs that were sent to the field. Those were subsequently consumed in the dark, at O-dark o'clock.
I'll admit to consuming a significant amount of Immodium and an attack of flatulence causing the evacuation of an entire barracks of sick infantrymen.
True story.
The cook was reclassified as an infantryman, where he caused no further harm.

^ Oh:

Annoyingly, not a single musk melon or honeydew seed sprouted.

I do appreciate it when someone makes the distinction that not everything in the set is a "cantaloupe."

Indeed, the proper nomenclature should be always used. :)
I'm still annoyed that the bloody things didn't sprout, as my wife loves the melons. Heavily salted, of course, *@^&#!!!.
Oh well, I'll reseed soon. If those seeds fail, I'll seek a refund and recall.

Annoyed: Whatever happened to the two or three foot long watermelon?!
As an obligate omnivore, I resent the hell out of removing food choices!
If it ain't moving, I'll eat it. If it is moving, I'll get a bite on the run. ;)

Some claim that Flight 93 was brought down by a Customs or similar agency plane, either with missiles or guns. Someone would have to notice a Falcon or Learjet with a pair of twenty-foot-long Sidewinders or a pair of 20 mm gun pods under its wings, let alone the fact that modifying a business jet to carry weapons would require extensive complex modifications that someone would notice. Making the intercept with a plane not inherently faster than a large commercial airliner while carrying several extra tons of not very aerodynamic armaments would be a pretty piece of flying.

I find it odd that they would simultaneously claim NORAD was stood down AND that a non-USAF jet shot down the airliner. So, which is it -- the USAF cooperating, or having to go behind the USAF's back? Why not just use a fighter?

That said, Dassault makes a maritime patrol variant of the Falcon, which can be fitted with hardpoints to carry external stores. Various Falcon models are in service with militaries around the world. (The US Coast Guard even used to have a few, although they have since been retired.) So I'm not sure it would require a particularly unusual bit of flying on the part of the pilot.

My big problem with it all is the *pointlessness* of the alleged conspiracy. What could anyone possibly have gained by doing 9/11 as a false flag? Why hijack that jet only to shoot it down? Yeah, I know, to give us hope to rally around, but we were plenty mad without that jet. It would not have mattered. It's a rather quixotic thing for a nigh-omniscient super conspiracy to do.

If I'd been around that "demolitions expert" I'd have kicked him in the rear. I stood at the windows and watched the damn second plane fly into the towers, and watched them fall. Demolition my right foot!

DO NOT pull that "inside job" crap on me, Gilbert (by the way, you are a disgrace to that name). I lost friends in those towers, and now I'm going to crawl back into my hole and have shakes and nightmares again.

Also: fool: there's a HUGE difference in size, speed, weight AND fuel between the B-52 that hit the Empire State Building and the jets that hit WTC. Now, I have to go throw up. I avoid these conversations usually because they make me so sick, but I absolutely HATE the conspiracy freaks who weren't even close enough to WATCH.

MI Dawn: *HUGGLES*

I was very lucky not to lose friends or family in the attack. My cousin and her husband lived in Manhattan, but were commuting to work outside the city. She was working in Connecticut, so she spent a lot of time on the train. They were thinking about moving to ease the commute, and 9/11 pretty much cemented the decision for them. They lived close enough they weren't able to go home for a while after the collapse. I know they *did* lose friends.

My uncle (on the other side of the family) knew people who died as well. There were a bunch of small-town Minnesota banks that were planning a merger. All of their top executives met in New York to finalize the deal and celebrate on 9/11/01. At Windows on the World. Yeah. It of course was a major crisis for this nascent Minnesota banking organization, to have basically lost its entire leadership all at once. It was years before it really recovered.

That's the worst part of the conspiracy theories, of course. They are accusing everyone who was there of lying and colluding in the deaths of people they cared about. Which is pretty damn monstrous accusation to make without a scintilla of evidence beyond wanting it to be so. And god help someone who *wants* that to be so.

MI Dawn, have a remote hug on me.
But, a niggle: It was a B25 that crashed into the Empire State building, with a partial load of aviation gasoline. Differences were the type of construction used in the building, a hell of a lot of difference in airspeed of the two aircraft and a quarter million pounds of jet A kerosene.
Oh, the report that does't exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Complete_9-11_Commission_Report.pdf

Here's one Meridian Plaza fire, resulting in the loss of the building, but was only started with oily rags.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Meridian_Plaza
I remember that fire, several firefighters lost their lives in the fire and eventually, firefighting efforts were halted out of concerns of a collapse.

My wife was in DC & actually saw the 737 hit the Pentagon....I hate conspiracy theorists.

Calli Arcale, I will bend my rule just a little bit. I was aware that the Falcon has a maritime patrol version, but it could hardly fail to be noticed flying around inland with 20-ft. long missiles under its wings.
Since maritime patrol planes don't have a role in aerial combat, and business jets aren't built for speed, adding in the electronics that allow pilot and missile to "talk" to each other and make the launch, or the fitting of a gunsight and firing mechanisms, would take a lot of work and money. The maximum speed of a Falcon, as one example, is not all that much more than the cruising speed of a 757, and the pilot would have to fly fast enough and high enough to make the intercept and come into visual range without the agility of a fighter aircraft and with the airliner's transponder turned off so no help from the FAA, while itself showing on air traffic radar. Beside that, the site of the crash couldn't really be controlled, so evidence might fall into the "wrong" hands.
(Did I say a little bending, and not engaging to begin with?
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself." - Walt Whitman)

Here's a unique aircraft launching a hellfire missile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_208_Caravan#/media/File:An_AC-208_…
We don't use that type of aircraft to fire weapons, as we have specialist aircraft to fire missiles.
For the record, a hellfire missile is pretty much the worst missile to choose for antiaircraft purposes.

My location was supposed to be "On a high horse I can't get off of."
Tiny keyboards and hand tremors don't play nice together.

#139 Chris- I eat tons of organic veggies and am a good cook. I'm in better shape than my mom at the same age. She had 2 operations at that time (even though she lived to 95) She had very stiff joints. Vit C is not expensive and it can't hurt. There is research supporting supplementation. Would love to have your garden;alas I'm a city dweller. Grew tomatoes on my terrace when I had one.

Intravenous vitamin C administration improves quality of life in breast cancer patients during chemo-/radiotherapy and aftercare: results of a retrospective, multicentre, epidemiological cohort study in Germany.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693I

Correction- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22021693

Ken: There is research supporting supplementation.

Well, yes, but for most medical professionals supplementation is considered to be the last resort or as a way to make up for a nutrient that's not there or that the body isn't processing properly. For example, most men don't need folate supplements, as they can get enough from their diet. A woman will need folate if she's pregnant.
I, personally, need iron supplements, as I'm damn near anemic- I do actually ingest enough iron, it just doesn't stick around long enough to do any good.
If somehow you end up subsisting on a mix of freeze-dried food and potatoes, then you need supplements.
If you're eating a lot of fresh fruits and veggies- or even fresh salsa- you shouldn't need extra vitamin c. But if you want to literally piss your money away, then supplement away.
Wzrd: I wish I was you. All I'm doing this weekend in the yard is checking if the hummingbird feeder is getting customers. Assuming it doesn't rain. I have no green thumb, but I'd love to try if the growing was that good.

#158 The cost of Vit C is about 10 cents/day.

And in case anyone had any doubts that Gilly is a horrible person, he's now apparently suggesting that Timothy McViegh's victims were complicit in their own deaths. Victim blaming kindergartners, buddy? Things living at the bottom of the Mariana Trench have more class than you.

Old Rockin' Dave -- oh yeah, it'd absolutely be expensive. I was just pointing out that its basic aerodynamics can handle that just fine. There are also maritime patrol/attack variants of some other bizjets; they're popular for sale to countries that can't afford more purpose-built types of military aircraft. I think Embraer does one too.

One of the things I've been involved with is the addition of electronics to such aircraft for stores management. So yeah, you're absolutely right that it is not cheap. ;-) Missile wouldn't have to be 20 feet long, though. That's overkill. Most air-to-air missiles are less than half that. A maritime patrol aircraft might carry a Harpoon; that can take out a ship, and it's about 13 feet long. Also costs over a million bucks apiece, and would be a terrible choice for shooting down an airplane. ;-)

Now, if we're to think like a conspiracy theorist (ew), the transponder turning off isn't a problem, since this is a false flag -- the hijackers are cooperating with the government. So they would presumably fly it to a predetermined point. But the problem with *that* is why not just go old school and bring a bomb on board? The whole connection of things you have to believe in order for it to be a conspiracy is massive and include several direct contradictions. It makes no sense.

BTW, I remember a conversation online with someone not terribly long after 9/11 regarding the "shot down by a bizjet" idea. There was actually a bizjet someplace not hideously far away, close enough at least to give the conspiracy theorists ideas, and she was adamant that it had missiles. From her description, though, it was actually wingtip fuel pods, which aren't all that unusual as range extenders on bizjets.

Is anyone else getting a serious sense of de ja vu? Gilbert is reminding me, strongly, of a long gone troll here (c00lr) who was so unspeakable that they ended up getting dis-em-vowel-ed over at Aetiology.

That troll also loved to whine on endlessly about "building 7". What's next, the moon landings?
And what does any of this have to do with medication?

Gilbert is reminding me, strongly, of a long gone troll here (c00lr) who was so unspeakable that they ended up getting dis-em-vowel-ed over at Aetiology.

Given Gilbert/Tim/tiM/TIm/Timmeh/Élan [sic*] vital/Mitzi Dupree's general bad trip, it wouldn't surprise me.

* No accents on French caps, if you can edit your way out of a wet paper bag.

Ken: Still, that's $3 a month, $36 at the end of the year. And that's ONLY if you buy the bottom-priced, no brand-name supplement. I can think of a lot of better things to do with thirty-six dollars.

32 letters right? Maybe it could fill the bill.

33 actually, but it might be the case that some sources don't consider miagki znak (soft sign) to be a letter, since it doesn't make any sound on it's own (it never appears on its own), but only softens the consonants it comes after.

I just asked my mom why she doesn't have a vegetable garden; she says there are too many deer around now that our old dog is dead. (She died when I was in college.)

She adopted a cat that the neighbors left behind; she was even letting it sleep inside during the winter. He and I have been slowly making friends; he's kind of a scaredy-cat. Taking suggestions for names; my mom just calls him "kitty cat."

@Wzrd1: oops...my numbers dyslexia got to me again. I flip number sequences ALL the time unless I'm really careful, and I was posting in a hurry. Thanks for the correction. (And I kinda like the B-52s anyway.... LOL)

MI Dawn, I know the deal with dyslexia, I'm dyslexic myself.
We've B52's aplenty here, Barksdale AFB is down the road and they routinely overfly my house.
Watching them make a delivery is also an impressive sights as well. :)

ken: 2 niggles. Vitamin C might be cheap, but you were also referencing IV infusion, which *isn't* cheap...around here, I've heard $40-60/infusion, and they usually get up into the 90s in number of infusions.
Second: you pee out what you don't need, so you're not only getting expensive urine, you're setting yourself up for scurvy if you stop taking high doses after a while, as your body gets used to eliminating the excess.

I'd rather just eat fruit and vegetables, and (due to surgery), take my daily multivitamin.

Should have been miagkii znak above, but I suppose it's not like anybody would notice the mistake.

it’s not like anybody would notice the mistake.
You never know with Narad.

@ JP:

Kitty Cat? I had an aunt, Kitty. She and her mother were both Katherine.

I have of late liked first names that people use. The obvious Tom and Bob. I had a Sam, one of my gentlemen had Sheila.

My friend has a cat found on a golf course named Bogey. Another, found under a snowed-in porch, was Frosty ( big and white). A third was Andy. She didn't know AJW.
I know someone with a cat called Jerry Garcia. My other aunt had a black cat named Lucky. My cousin's wife has Mojo.
How about Pookie?

I'll leave it as an exersize for the reader to verify that a 1994 US Geological Survey showed the same crater and scar that was allegedly left by the crash of Flight 93.

JP: Miagkii actually sounds like an awesome cat name. As for my family, from a poll of four pet owners, we have Toby, Aeneus, Spooky, Ovid, Dog (long story), Wild Thing, and Maximillian. There was also a neighborhood cat who I nicknamed Big Fur. I'm pretty sure he had Maine Coon in him somewhere, and he took over a dog house.

with respect to flt 93...let's roll**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlM8Sui6-X0

**roll it

The current cats in residence here are Molly and Kaja; before that, we had Julian. I named Molly; the other two had those names when we adopted them.

""Victim blaming kindergartners, buddy?

Not at all, PgP #160. It is that those kids are the most unbiased thus most reliable witness for what really went down.

"Boom .. Boom"

An echo? I think not.

I have of late liked first names that people use. The obvious Tom and Bob. I had a Sam, one of my gentlemen had Sheila.

I am much of the persuasion that full, given cat names should be three syllables in length, with intrinsically different vocalic patterns, and have some enunciable semantics, whether intrisic or extrinsic.

The "vocalic" element is predicated on having multiple cats and their being able to recognize a personal singsong call when being searched for (this has proved effective with one who kept escaping to return to his stomping grounds at the previous apartment, which was no mean feat).

However, I've found this to be a project that depends very much on serendipitous inspiration,* with two-syllable nicknames as likely as not to ultimately prevail in the calling task.

After once or twice, though, I worry that I may be getting lulled into using this phenomenon to limit the search space. I am guilty of one retrodiction.**

* Look, man, the whole thing is rooted in free association. Specifically, I am not recommending the cat name "Terrapin." I don't reject it out of hand, though, but I'd say that "Purity" and even "Purrity" are prima facie stronger. (The comment from the chiropractor about Masonic symbolism is really worth the price of admission, so there.)
** Note to JP: From that Koestler.

Sure.
You don't think that I actually called him Sam?
Sammy Boy.

multiple cats and their being able to recognize a personal singsong call when being searched for

Do not name cats after the Dioskouri. It is all very well to be calling for Castor, but when you wander around at night shouting Pollux! Pollux!, the neighbours are wont to look askance.

Sure.
You don’t think that I actually called him Sam?
Sammy Boy.

In practice? After my previous digression, I'll refrain from further indulgence over vowel doubling for nominally single-syllable names.

Narad: "I am much of the persuasion that full, given cat names should be three syllables in length, with intrinsically different vocalic patterns, and have some enunciable semantics, whether intrisic or extrinsic."

Aaah! We were following a Narad rule without knowing it over a decade ago. Twelve years ago we got "Quicksilver" (because she is a gray cat), and the next year "Mario."

The only reason we had two cats was because two children wanted their own pets after one of the greatest cats in the world, Louie, died at age nineteen. It turned out the cats hated each other and we had literal pissing matches throughout the house. Mario, the stupid, still occasionally piddles on the stair carpet. I "love" trying to explain the waterproof covering on the steps.

Fortunately Quicksie is now living elsewhere with youngest child. Though she may be back as youngest transitions between her present rental and moving to another state. She does promise to take the little gray aging kitty there on the plane.

My furbag is called "Hobbes". Yes, I'm the most original pet owner, ever.

My cat is called Soussou and his mom, who died some years ago, was Touta. My first cat was Kayleigh and I want a cat to name Findus.

Findus...of "Pettson and Findus"-fame?

Yes, that Findus. My dad and I love those books.

I can easily be persuaded to scan pages of "Pancakes for Findus".

Denice @173 one of our cats is called Ginger Baker, do you think he'd get on with Jerry Garcia?

We've had several cats. First was Genghis Khan (yes, a Siamese - seal point). Then Chauncey (black and white with a mustache - neurotic animal who loved dried apricots and sliding on the porcelain in the bathtub when it was empty). Triskele (another sealpoint), Tanya - all black, named before we got her from the shelter, and Taji (a blue/silverpoint mix).

A friend has cats named Emma, Nelson and Hamilton.

(For those who can see it, my photo is Taji, who I sadly had to put to sleep after the dummy decided to knock over and eat a bottle of valium.)

As long as we're talking cat names - Valiant Slayer of Moles, or Prince for short.

And a previous dog Giuseppe Fred Saponee.

@ Narad:

Yes. I named him 'Sam' but found out later that he preferred a longer, more musical appellation- therefore, 'Sammy Boy'.

@ Phillip:
Ha!
Believe it or not, Jerry's caretaker is a stoner. And today is you know.
I assume that Ginger Baker is ginger. So is Jerry Garcia.

@ Mi Dawn:
Sad tale..

If you look at films of controlled demolition, and that’s one of my aspie enthusiasms, you will never see one come down from the top, only from the ground level

Old Rockin' Dave #127, meet your top-down controlled demolition black swann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJQRK0JjH70

""Oh, the report that does’t exist

Wzrd1 #149, perhaps you could point me to the relevant part of that report which concerns WTC 7. Actually, I misspoke in conflating the Omission report with the Nist report on WTC7:

FINDING REGARDING PUBLIC SAFETY INFORMATION
Pursuant to Section 7(d) of the National Construction Safety Team Act, I hereby find that the disclosure of the information described below, received by the National Institute of Standards and Technology ("NIST"), in connection with its investigation of the technical causes of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and World Trade Center Building 7 on September 11,2001, might jeopardize public safety. Therefore, NIST shall not release the following information:

1. All input and results files of the ANSYS 16-story collapse initiation model with detailed connection models that were used to analyze the structural response to thermal loads, break element source code, ANSYS script files for the break elements, custom executable ANSYS file, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities.

2. All input files with connection material properties and all results files of the LS-DYNA 47-story global collapse model that were used to simulate sequential structural failures leading to collapse, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities.
~
Patrick Gallagher Director National Institute of Standards and Technology
Dated: JUL 09 2009

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-07-12/nist-denies-access-wtc-collapse-d…

I know not to plod through 528 pages of tripe to see why the building fell because it's not there; Your blind appeal to authority demonstrates your cluelessness -- What was that about Kruger-Dunning again?

I stood at the windows and watched the damn second plane fly into the towers, and watched them fall. Demolition my right foot!

My condolences, MI Dawn #146. For what it's worth, I was never a 'no planer'. I don't know how planes came up as I was discussing building 7. Strawman much? Though planes can be retrofitted to carry all manner of ordinance -- I once saw a space shuttle piggybacking a 747. The first one, Enterprise.

One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes -- That sort of thing makes the tennants too jittery to continue investigations such as Murrah Federal, Enron, and Global Crossing. Paperwork, Wzrd1? There was plenty of that.

Building 7's implosion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-27FGbpBk4

Who Killed John O'Neill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSyFD51vN_4
=====================================

neurotic animal who loved dried apricots and sliding on the porcelain in the bathtub when it was empty

I had a cat I raised from a newborn kitten after his mom died -- He loved water and would jump in the shower with me every time, reveling in the full spray. I don't know if he liked the water so much as the towel-dry pampering afterwards. Pounces dissapeared one day; Most likely a victim of the many coyotes here.

"One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes"

1 - what could be the reason to "prewire" these structures? No, I understand, to demolish them. I mean, what could be the reason to have to demolish them in a jiffy?
2 - because explosives don't have a "use before" date. Sure.
3 - if you are right, where are the other "wired-up" buildings?

“One thing that may cause such a report to be buried is if it contained information that these large highrise structures are pre-wired for demolition for when the day comes”

Yeah, because everyone builds a building, just to blow it up when "the day comes". Someone doesn't have much of a clue on real estate investment!

Back in the late 90's, we had drawn some TNT from the ammunition supply point. It wasn't an unusual thing, as explosive demolitions was part of our duties. What was unusual was the fact that the TNT charges were dated 1958.
Less than a third of the charges properly detonated and we spent the afternoon collecting TNT from the ground, where it had been sprayed by failed detonations, piling it up and sympathetically detonating it with a dozen M112 demolition blocks of C-4.
As we were bitten once, we closely examined the C-4 and fortunately, it wasn't expired. C-4 should be white, just as TNT should be white, both can degrade, but C-4 can degrade into an unstable form that would detonate with little provocation. In that state, it turns brown.
Yes, explosives degrade, some quite rapidly. The higher the destructive force, the quicker it degrades. So, wiring things up in advance won't be effective for very long and one's blasting caps will degrade the fastest of all, as they're hygroscopic in nature, they'll suck the water from the air and the water then inactivates them.
As concrete has quite a bit of water in it, one's charges would fail in under a year.

Gilbert:

Though planes can be retrofitted to carry all manner of ordinance — I once saw a space shuttle piggybacking a 747. The first one, Enterprise.

How very cool that you got to see Enterprise riding one of the SCAs! Was that on delivery to the USS Intrepid museum in 2012 (when it flew over Manhattan) or longer ago? Just curious. If you got to witness an ALT test . . . oh, that is so cool. I am very jealous. ;-) That particular Shuttle Carrier Aircraft, by the way, now lives in Houston, on static display at JSC, with a mockup Orbiter on top. Of course, all the Orbiters got to ride on 747s, many times. Endeavour was the last to do so, on delivery to the California Science Center in 2012. I'm an incurable space nerd *and* a 747 fan, so I still get choked up watching the videos on YouTube of the Orbiters each being delivered to their final homes.

A couple of minor points:

1) A Space Shuttle isn't really ordnance. They didn't even put range safety packages on the Orbiters; they put them on the SRBs and ETs instead. But damn, you picked pretty much the ultimate example of making an airplane carry something. ;-)

2) Just about any airplane can be retrofitted to carry something, yes. If you can afford it. ;-) I just don't understand why anyone would suggest the US government would retrofit an aircraft specifically for this job when they've already got a lot of airplanes that come equipped for that right out of the box. And when it makes no sense for the jet to have been shot down anyway. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how that even all fits in to a coherent narrative.

A 747 ferrying a space shuttle is cool, for me, cooler would be watching them mount the space shuttle way up there on top of that 747. The rest would just be gravy.

Why someone would gin up an aircraft to launch an air to air missile when they already have a couple of thousand fighter jets that could do that "out of the box" is also beyond me.
It'd be expensive and the aircraft would stick out like a sore thumb in a hammer factory.
I suspect that some people have difficulty understanding that we don't have fighters idling on the runway, awaiting scramble orders to go shoot at someone. We don't for the simple reason that it's crazy expensive to do so in peacetime.
Fighter aircraft are maintenance intensive beasts!

As concrete has quite a bit of water in it, one’s charges would fail in under a year.

I've worked and finished concrete, Wzrd1 #196. It's quite the dessicant drawing moisture inside itself from it's surroundings for some 30 years -- It makes a nasty burn if it gets into your shoe.

Barksdale, hu? Whatd'ya know about the missing 'Barksdale nuke'? Makes me nervous when Lindsey Graham is just sooo sure Charleston is gonna get nuked.

Six AGM-129 cruise missiles, each loaded with a W80-1 variable yield nuclear warhead, were mistakenly loaded onto a United States Air Force (USAF) B-52H heavy bomber at Minot Air Force Base and transported to Barksdale Air Force Base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weap…

I seem to recall that a disproportionate number of those involved suffered *single vehicle accidents* or just killed themselves. Rouge spheres are a bit of an embarrassment to the establishment.
============================

I was in grade school, Calli Arcale #197. ~1976-1980

It came in to land at Marshall in Huntsville, Alabama. We got a subsequent tour and I stood under the nose being in awe of the guy heating up and holding in his bare hand a white hot sample of the tiles (high insulatory value, low specific heat) -- silicon carbide.

There were no missing nukes at Barksdale, there was an environment of lousy discipline and non-adherence to standards of care for nuclear weapons.
Especially damning: leaving a half dozen nuclear missiles attached to a B-52, unguarded and unknown that they were there. Once they were discovered, all hell broke loose and they were properly secured.
Yep, a lot of careers ended that day and rightfully so.
Single car accidents aren't uncommon in the military, it's called drunk driving. Suicides are also far too common in the military. Having one's career come to a screeching halt can precipitate drunk driving or suicide.
At least the Army kept proper control of their nukes. Even if I was present to see a bunch of drunken soldiers driving around Germany with a half dozen Pershing missile warheads...

I worked with my father on concrete, poured thousands of yards over the years. Never got burned, my skin seems to not mind it, no clue why. I'm also resistant to poison ivy, no reaction at all.

How was the man holding a tile that is glued to the shuttle in his hand?
We use similar tiles inside of applique armor for armored vehicles, layers of Kevlar and several types of ceramic tile to break up focused plasma jets from incoming RPG's.

#45 From the NIH
High-Dose Vitamin C–Patient Version
http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq#…

Yes, explosives degrade, some quite rapidly.
In a way, that's their job.

By the way, aluminum burns. It is one component of solid rocket fuel. So it was not just the jet fuel that burned.

""aluminum burns

So does steel and iron, Chris #201. It's gotta get hot enough first. Kerosene Jet A does not come anywhere close to those temperatures. And yet, there is much video of semi-molten, red hot beams being pulled out of 'the pile' even from months later.

I know Winston Churchill said this but probably others said it before he did: Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. What is the probability of a secret being kept by thousands of people?

Also, everyone knows that the towers were taken down by Crowbar KEWs.

Rich, I don't know, they could have been easily taken down with gridfire and a CAM dusting.

By the way, aluminum burns.

Clearly the HMS Sheffield was constructed out of aluminium with the intention of destroying it. False flag operation! Inside job!!

Ah, but the HMS Sheffield had a steel superstructure.

Wzrd1, as far as I am aware no one has any Crowbars in orbit although

9/11 Truthers are almost worse than anti-vaxers....they love to move the goal-posts & building 7 is a particular favorite, despite all of the real evidence to the contrary.

The operating temperature of a jet engine is around 2000 degrees C, steel melts between 1300 and 1500 degrees and softens at under 600 degrees (air flow through the engine keeps it from melting). So burning jet A fuel has enough energy to at least soften steel. Once the structural steel is soften it is no longer structural in nature and a collapse will occur.

Lawrence -- the worst is having a dinner partner who not only believes President Obama was born in Kenya, but that George W. Bush will go down in history as Murrka's finest president.

I liked the hostess which put a crimp in my style.

@Rich - a perfect example of a basic working knowledge of metallurgy which seems to allude the 9/11 truthers.....

no one has any Crowbars in orbit
Orbit? I thought they flew at Mach 4, leaving a trail of radiation and reactor-core fragments.

HDB, The Crowbar KEW is a chunk of metal with a guidance package and is dropped from orbit at a target. 100kg mass striking at 18,000 mph will make a big hole.

The nuclear jet engine is idea who's time may come when try to explore the upper reaches of Jupiter's atmosphere.

Remember, they're talking about WTC 7, where Giuliani had large quantities of fuel stored for his "emergency bunker" (something several stories above ground may be an emergency command center, but it's not a bunker). Of course it burned.

A little fuel is the same as a burning super sized tower falling on the building.
The diesel fuel fire was discounted quite early on, when it was modeled and failed to be a significant cause of structural problems.
But, a great bloody office tower falling on the building, nearly splitting it in two did cause some odd problems, go figure.

As for an emergency management center, it can be on any floor in a building, they're not bunkers, they're emergency management centers. While one can have one in a bunker, it's usually a dreadful waste of money to build a bunker for a simple emergency management center.
Just as my building where I work, built in tornado alley, has a hardened area for us to go to in the event of a tornado, but the rest of the building would be severely damaged or destroyed if a tornado hit it. It didn't make sense to fortify the entire building, rather than simply insuring equipment and protecting personnel.
One calculates the expense based upon the single loss expectancy vs the annualized loss expectancy of a specific event. Falling office towers are extremely rare, so one doesn't spend much to protect against them.

...steel ... softens at under 600 degrees...

This is something that blacksmiths have known longer than this country has been around, and something I learned in high school.

Between idiots drinking the bong water and the lack of wood/auto/metal shop classes, I weap for this generation.

Johnny: "This is something that blacksmiths have known longer than this country has been around, and something I learned in high school."

And something the engineers of the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" should also know. It is included in the "materials" class required of most mechanical/civil engineers.

I was a structural engineer who did take and get a good grade from my materials class. I also took a thermal/heat transfer class on the behavior of metals to heat. I get a bit ragey when I hear those idiots make stupid claims on the behavior of steel beams.

I agree that the emergency management center for a city doesn't need to be in a bunker.

A sensible person, having put the city emergency management center on an upper floor, wouldn't have repeatedly referred to it as a "bunker."

What an interesting concept, referring to a politician as "a sensible person". ;)
Most wouldn't recognize a bunker hatch if their foot was stuck in it when it slammed shut.

I agree that the emergency management center for a city doesn’t need to be in a bunker.

Our county EOC is in the basement, under the jail. Neither cell phones nor wifi work there.

Wzrd1:

A 747 ferrying a space shuttle is cool, for me, cooler would be watching them mount the space shuttle way up there on top of that 747. The rest would just be gravy.

Oh, then here you go! Time-lapse video of Discovery being towed into the Mate-Demate Device and then mated with the SCA. Watch very closely when the nosegear is retracted -- they have very sophisticated devices (modified pushbrooms, yes really) to get the doors latched. ;-) Shuttle never had to raise its gear in flight, so to save weight, they left out the latching mechanism you'd find on a normal aircraft. This was in preparation for Discovery's final ferry flight to Washington, DC.

https://youtu.be/hBN1LHKGjXM

Gilbert:

It came in to land at Marshall in Huntsville, Alabama. We got a subsequent tour and I stood under the nose being in awe of the guy heating up and holding in his bare hand a white hot sample of the tiles (high insulatory value, low specific heat) — silicon carbide.

Oh, sweet!!!! To be able to come that close.... The Rocket City is on my places-to-see list. I want to visit all the NASA centers. So far I've only visited two: KSC and Langley. I did also get to see Endeavour at the California Science Center, which was very awesome -- my places-to-see list also includes going to DC again so I can see Discovery, and New York City so i can see Enterprise. Yes, my number one reason to see the Big Apple is a test article for the Space Shuttle program. I have my priorities. ;-)

Wzrd1:

How was the man holding a tile that is glued to the shuttle in his hand?

Minor clarification on Gilbert's behalf: the man would've been holding a sample tile, not one attached to the Shuttle (which, being Enterprise, didn't actually have any, and, being attached to the SCA, would have been about fifty or so feet up in the air anyway). It was one of their most popular little stage acts to demonstrate during educational events: heat a tile with a blowtorch until it is red hot, and then pick it up with your bare hand. I wouldn't be surprised if they still do it; it's a great materials science demonstration.

They would not allow anyone to fool around with a tile that's actually on the Orbiter. No way.

Chris:

By the way, aluminum burns. It is one component of solid rocket fuel. So it was not just the jet fuel that burned.

Solid rocket propellant also provides an oxidizer. I very much doubt the aircraft fuselage ignited (though I've no doubt much of the rest of the structure of the aircraft did).

Gilbert:

So does steel and iron, Chris #201. It’s gotta get hot enough first. Kerosene Jet A does not come anywhere close to those temperatures.

Aluminum burns at a lower temperature than iron; it is actually plausible for it to combust in an airplane fire. Check out images from plane crashes shortly after takeoff, when there is a large fuel load; there's often very little of the fuselage left. Steel and titanium parts, like fan disks, survive; the aluminum often does not.

Consider, for instance, the Air Frace flight 4590 accident. That was the Concorde that crashed on take-off from Charles de Gaulle. A small piece of debris from a DC-10 punctured a tire, which launched debris into one of the fuel tanks of the Concorde in exactly the right place to cause the tank to rupture. Leaking fuel ignited. This fire caused portions of the wing to partially melt and break away; the aircraft shed debris throughout its short flight as the fire burned through more and more of the structure. Like most aircraft, the bulk of Concorde's structure was aluminum. And bear in mind, this is an aircraft designed to exceed the speed of sound, so it's built to accept a fair amount of heat, and the bits that were melted away on this aircraft did so in seconds. Clearly, Jet-A does indeed burn hot enough.

Rich Bly:

Wzrd1, as far as I am aware no one has any Crowbars in orbit although

Actually, there is at least one pry-bar aboard the ISS! If that counts as a crowbar. ;-) You can see it (or rather its flight spare) in this awesome article here, showing a look at what the ISS's toolchest looks like:
http://toolguyd.com/iss-toolbox-tools/

They had about three times as many people as I would have thought they needed for the lift.
With heavy lifts, one tries to minimize the number of squishy people about.
To do so with that many bodies about shows some very, very serious coordination!

Calli Arcale, thanks for the info. However, I don't think it would a very god KEW; hard to hit a specific target.

100kg mass striking at 18,000 mph will make a big hole

Rich Bly #216, like this?

‘Project Thor’ is basically summed up as “Rods from God” or “an orbiting tungsten telephone pole with small fins and a computer in the back for guidance.” Once given the launch command, a satellite would drop the ‘pole,’ which would then speed up until going at orbital velocity, around 10 miles a second. At this speed, when it hit a ground based target, it would have the explosive equivalent of a small-yield nuclear weapon and would also have great penetrating power because of its long, thin profile.

This program is the first example of what we now call “kinetic bombardment,” using dense objects traveling at very high speeds to eliminate targets without the need of explosives, no need for nuclear bombs.

http://www.groundzeromedia.org/kinetic-retaliation/

And if it was not a nuke, it was something else incredibly huge, but not a fuel air bomb because fuel air bombs will not leave craters.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/08/25/confirmation-tianjin-was-nuked/

^^ Derpy. Well, if the KEW fits better than a nuke...
==================================

@Calli Arcale #224

I seem to recall the shuttle then was in a building not attached to a plane. I even seem to recall that it had tiles and that they discussed a problem with the glue.

I've a friend that worked for one of the contractors doing powder painting. I'd visit him at work and have seen the large sheets of aluminum they form the external tank out of. He painted the nosecone of Columbia and was questioned after it's demise.

In 1994, I've stood on Merrit Island by the strip (Landing Field - 49, I think) when one came in -- I was running the portable wind profiler (clear air doppler radar) for them then as a previous landing had low level wind shear which blew out all the tires.

I got the briefest tour of the VAB though I'd drive by it daily. Mind the alligators.
=================================

Of course, aluminum burns. And iron. And steel. I've seen plenty a beer can turn to floppy ash under the convection of a nice little camp fire. Iron, once hot enough, is sustained through the addition of water in pulses. And when cutting, the fuel is shut off and only oxygen blown onto the burning slit.

But the mostest bestest fires are when Iron and aluminum burn together. Thermite. It can be made by using electrolysis to make a slurry first out of a pair of scissors and next a couple aluminum gutter nails. Let dry (rust) and mix. It is also an 'eutectic' lowering the melting point of steel and iron -- according to Mark's Engineering Handbook, it's the only way to properly weld a cast iron engine block; The next guy who sends me on a wild goose chase for 'nickel rods' is going to find his Qi balanced by them should they actually materialize.

Thermite vs. car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng

I wonder if cherry tomatoes would grow in that pot?

oops, the 'eutectic' would be from the addition of sulfur -- Thermate.

Rich Bly,
"I know Winston Churchill said this but probably others said it before he did: Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead."
There was a tile in a cafe I used to visit with this French inscription (Sorry, I can't do accents on this keyboard)
Secrete a deux,
Secrete a Dieu.
Secrete a plus,
Secrete de tous.
It loses everything in translation, which goes about like this:
A secret of two
is a secret of/before God.
A secret of more
Is a secret of all.
:

Old rockin' Dave -- that makes this even more incredible:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/us/burglars-who-took-on-fbi-abandon-s…

7 conspirators, completely silent for over 40 years.

It was Benjamin Franklin

""Three may keep council if two of them be dead.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Secrecy

@ Old Rockin Dave
More exactly:
Secret de deux, secret de Dieu; secret de trois, secret de tous.
Translation is OK.

@Old Rockin' Dave #229

""It loses everything in translation,

could it somehow be translated that *two gone to/before God* instead of the stated shared secret in God's presence

And then 'Secret a plus...'

If two have died and there be but one more....

I'm pretty sure Franklin took a tour de France somewhere about the time of uttering this quote.

Daniel Corcos: I stand by my source, which was a tile in a cafe in the Village of Oyster Bay. If it was changed, I didn't do it, and it did read "plus", not "trois", "Plus" makes it into a rhymed couplet, and a little more pleasing to the ear.

Palindrom: It's a remarkable story, and I'm not saying it couldn't have happened, but there are several differences from most conspiracies. They had no intent to harm and didn't cause any, reducing guilt as a motivation to speak out.. There was no monetary or other personal gain involved. They planned their burglary like a military operation, and carried it out in such a way that the likelihood of being caught was small, and unlike, say, the Lufthansa robbers, had no sudden wealth to throw around or other tells. Staying mostly separated from each other made a chance slipup, such as an overheard or bugged conversation. Their ideological motivation likely reduced the urge to boast.
If this seems a little disjointed, it's late at night and I mightily enjoyed the Passover wine, which is no longer confined to Manischewitz's Malaga cough syrup, but was a nice California kosher Cabernet.

Dave, there were other kosher wines than Manischewitz cough syrup. I recall enjoying Carmel Rishon wines long ago, then they seemed to disappear.
There was one ceremonial wine from that vineyard that was excellent, well bodied and not as deadly sweet as Manischewitz products.

Gilbert,: My literal, if ugly, translation is a close one. What's lost in my translation is the rhyme of the original. Only twelve words two of them repeated four times, put succinctly what English would need many more to say.
Your version is interesting and maybe more poetic, but you are making it carry more weight than it can carry.

@ ORD
When pronounced in French, there is no rhyme with "plus" and "tous". And we say "secret" not "secrete". The person who wrote the inscription was an English-speaker.

Wzrd1, our wine was from the Baron Herzog winery. The choice was a tossup between that and one from Bartenura. Very nice Pesach wines are produced in France, Italy, and (gasp!) Germany, among others.
Kasher l'Pesach wines are usually the best production of the year because commonly every bit of equipment is either steam cleaned, and/or thoroughly scrubbed down by yeshiva bachorim.

Daniel Corcos: The passage of time may have caused to substitute "a" for "de", but my French teachers, native speakers all, did indeed rhyme "tous" and "plus", both with the s silent.

ORD:
With the s silent, it makes no sense at all. Beware your teachers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jhxbo5I8q4

Do we need algebra? Are you kidding me?

oracknows — Sun, 29 Jul 2012 22:02:35 +0000

Do we need algebra? Are you kidding me?

And now for something completely different...

Well, not really, but kind of different.

I realize that my niche here has become discussing science-based medicine, evidence-based medicine, and the atrocities committed against both by proponents of so-called "complementary and alternative" medicine, but every so often I need a change of pace. Unfortunately, that change of pace was something I came across in the New York Times on Sunday in the form of a commentary so bad that I seriously wondered if it was a parody or a practical joke. Alas, it wasn't. I'm referring to an article by Andrew Hacker, and emeritus professor of political science at Queens College, City University of New York, entitled Is Algebra Necessary?

The short answer is yes (actually, hell, yes!). The longer answer follows. First, though, let's start out with the premise, which hits you in the face in the very first paragraph of this incredibly misguided and, quite frankly, mind-numbingly silly proposal:

A TYPICAL American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with algebra. In both high school and college, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I’ve found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn’t.

Hmmm. I wonder what Hacker would say if I were to rewrite his paragraph thusly:

A typical American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with English and English composition. In both high school and colleged, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I've found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn't.

Or substitute history or science for algebra in the same paragraph. Actually, come to think of it, if we deemphasize algebra, we might as well add science to the mix, because without algebra it is damned near impossible to become proficient at any science. It's the very minimal that is necessary to understand basic physics, for example, and perhaps not even enough for that given how much of physics is based on calculus. However, algebra is probably enough to undergird a basic understanding of classical physics that is adequate for an average educated citizen to need to know. Of course, without algebra, chemistry would be completely indecipherable, at least anything quantitative. Forget about reaction stoichiometries, kinetics, and the like. That will be out of reach, except for mushy generalities. Then forget about biology and biochemistry as well. No enzyme kinetics, membrane potentials, half-lives, or anything quantitative. And for you budding doctors out there, forget about medicine! A solid understanding of all these sciences, and more (pharmacology and human physiology in particular) is beyond your understanding if you don't understand the basics of algebra.

It's not just science, though. Without the basics of algebra, it's really difficult to understand the basics of statistics. We live in an increasingly data-driven world, and our citizenry is already pretty statistically illiterate anyway. But, heck, it's too hard; so let's drop it.

Hacker's "logic" (such as it is) for recommending that not everyone should be required to have a basic competence in algebra is strange, too. Get a load of this:

This debate matters. Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower. I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers. My aim is not to spare students from a difficult subject, but to call attention to the real problems we are causing by misdirecting precious resources.

The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.

For someone claiming to rely heavily on the use of numbers, one can't help but note that Hacker's arguments are not particularly powerful and play a little bit fast and loose with numbers himself. He cites a lot of statistics, but his interpretation of many of them leaves something to be desired. (Hey, that's something that a good grounding in algebra and other mathematics would help those of us reading Hacker's little proposal guard against, isn't it?) For instance, Hacker says that "most of the educators" that he's talked with cit algebra as the major reason why our high school dropout rate is so high, but he doesn't cite any actual...oh, you know...figures that support such a blanket statement. For example, he cites various failure rates at algebra proficiency tests but doesn't show evidence that these are the primary reason why these high school students dropped out of high school or, more importantly, compared these figures with the numbers of students who fail other core topics that all high school students are expected to demonstrate minimal proficiency at. That is the very minimum information necessary to put the figures describing students' difficulty with mathematics and algebra into proper context. It wouldn't surprise me at all if students who drop out don't just fail algebra. They probably fail a lot of other major core curriculum topics as well.

True, hacker does cite some numbers that suggest that seem to indicate that freshman mathematics is a barrier to retention in college, but a better question to ask is: Why are freshmen so woefully unprepared in something as basic as algebra, such that they have difficulty learning it as a college freshman. If a student arrives in college without a basic understanding of algebra, as far as I'm concerned that student is not ready for college, any more than a student who can't read and write at a sufficiently high level. I can understand, although not necessarily support, an argument that perhaps calculus is not necessary for all college students. Perhaps, it could be argued, students who are not majoring in a science don't need to take calculus or that perhaps a year of statistics could be substituted for a year of calculus. One could even make the argument that in the "real world" statistics is a much more useful topic to have been exposed to for most people. Those would not be unreasonable arguments.

Instead, Hacker claims that mathematics is "used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status," giving examples that veterinary technicians are required to be proficient at algebra for their certification but never use it in diagnosing or treating animals. (Oh, really? How do they scale up drug dosages?) He also cites Harvard and and Johns Hopkins medical schools as requiring calculus for entrance, "even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice." Well, there are a lot of things required to get into medical school and taught in the first two years of medical school that do not figure in subsequent clinical practice or the curriculum. Much blood has been spilt on the floor, metaphorically speaking, arguing what sciences should be required in order to be a good physician. Hacker might have a point that physicians don't need to be proficient in calculus (although it helps if they wish to go into, for instance, radiation oncology), but that is a separate issue than whether students need to know algebra. Physicians, for instance, do need algebra for many things, including calculating blood gases, drug dosages, half-lives, cardiac outputs, and a number of other parameters. True, there are now many minicomputers and medical instruments that automatically calculate these numbers, but to understand the significance of the results, and, more importantly, changes in the results requires an understanding of the underlying equations, which in turn requires an understanding of algebra. Perhaps that's why Hacker mentioned calculus instead of algebra. In fact, one wonders if what we have here is a big case of math envy, given that he harps on the use of mathematics as a means of adding prestige to a field.

Be that as it may, what does Hacker propose instead? Well, this for one:

Quantitative literacy clearly is useful in weighing all manner of public policies, from the Affordable Care Act, to the costs and benefits of environmental regulation, to the impact of climate change. Being able to detect and identify ideology at work behind the numbers is of obvious use. Ours is fast becoming a statistical age, which raises the bar for informed citizenship. What is needed is not textbook formulas but greater understanding of where various numbers come from, and what they actually convey.

So, let's see. Quantitative literacy is critical to being an educated citizen who can weigh public policies, but algebra isn't necessary? Silly Hacker, what he is arguing here is not that a basic understanding of algebra isn't of critical importance to all citizens, but rather that it's taught badly. And I agree! Mathematics and algebra are all too often taught badly, with no good hook into the real world usefulness of the disciplines. No wonder students lose interest! They're never taught just how deeply mathematics of all types underlies, well, pretty much everything quantitative in society. Later, Hacker proposes:

Instead of investing so much of our academic energy in a subject that blocks further attainment for much of our population, I propose that we start thinking about alternatives. Thus mathematics teachers at every level could create exciting courses in what I call “citizen statistics.” This would not be a backdoor version of algebra, as in the Advanced Placement syllabus. Nor would it focus on equations used by scholars when they write for one another. Instead, it would familiarize students with the kinds of numbers that describe and delineate our personal and public lives.

It could, for example, teach students how the Consumer Price Index is computed, what is included and how each item in the index is weighted — and include discussion about which items should be included and what weights they should be given.

Except that it would be rather difficult to understand in the first place what a weighted average like the CPI is if the students don't understand the basics of algebra to begin with.

The bottom line is that we as a society have to decide what it means to have a well-rounded education. In general, we all tend to agree that reading at a certain level is essential. We can argue what, exactly, that level should be, but in today's society it's no longer possible to function well if you can't read and write, particularly in this increasingly Internet-driven world. Similarly, an understanding of mathematics is essential, and, from my perspective, algebra is actually a pretty low bar. True, many, if not most, people will never use much algebra, but the habits learned and the methods of using mathematics to solve problems will be useful almost no matter what a person does in life. Then, of course, there are the sciences and humanities, in particular history. If one-third of students are doing poorly at a subject that is so basic, such as algebra, then the answer is not to drop the requirement or to absolve those students who are having trouble passing it, but rather to find ways to teach it better. No one expects that everyone can excel at every topic, but there are certain topics that one should have a minimal proficiency at in order to be considered educated.

oracknows Sun, 07/29/2012 - 18:02

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Count me as a casualty of an awful algebra teacher. He graded our whole class on a curve otherwise many of us would have gotten a failing grade. He appeared to be quite a mathematician but not a teacher and lasted just that year. Next years geometry teacher was much better.

Another barf inducing NYT screed.

The problem with algebra is that students might actually have to do homework rather than bs their way through it. One can creatively grade a rambling, brain damaged attempt at an essay as good, but it takes some effort to convert wrong answers into full credit on an algebra test.

To make the parents and college admissions office happy, teachers must give little Timmy an A, and the less quantifiable the subject matter the less work it is to invent one.

I just forwarded a link to this blog post to a friend of mine who spent a few years teaching remedial algebra to freshmen at a good Midwestern university.

I love the idea that people that use the various machines in medicine, or really any walk of life, don't need to understand what's going on inside, the equations in use or what the machine is doing at all. Never mind that without doctors feeding back to technologists there would never be impovements in function here.
Don't worry! Those other, clever people sort out the machines, we just use them. Someone else will do the math for me!

So I suppose we end up where we are today, most people consider math to be hard and computers to be indistinguishable from magic.

I'm not sure if I had a point in the above rambling, so I'll make one now. if we don't even bother to tech kids basic algebra, many won't be introduced to it at all and intake for technical discplines (doctors, scentists, engineers etc) will drop off a percipice as we make these careers look even harder than they do now. This would not be a good thing for any country that wishes to lead the way in the modern world.

*facepalm* I have many ideas of what I think schools could do better and how, and also think that high school science courses should have more emphasis on the way science is done and how it applies to everyday objects and situations. I can't fathom perceiving a high school education as adequate without Algebra I and basic statistics. I could understand where they're coming from arguing that Algebra II shouldn't be required, but the first year of high school algebra includes a lot of basic, important, ubiquitous concepts.

I definitely think the way math is taught needs major overhauls. I have specific ideas on this, but it would need a lot of refining and then testing lest it be yet another ineffective education fad.

I have two children who struggle with math. But struggling with a subject is not a bad thing. At a time of universally lowered expectations and overinflated egos, struggle and challenge are not to be avoided. Else, be prepared to sit back and enjoy the view while China and India eat our lunch.

Okay...So he wants people to know nothing about things as basic as equations or averages ? So, his goal is that commerces and employers defraud poor Americans ? Because checking that the change is coherent with the price of your purchases and what you gave to the cashier is basic algebra...granted markets are perhaps less used in the USA than in France or Italia, but still...

The problem is most definitely that it's being taught badly, especially at the college level. I loved math as a high school student, got excellent grades, and took one course of AP calculus. My math teacher was a woman, btw.

I got to college, hoping to continue my studies, walked into the first day of freshman calculus, and got a math grad student who told the class his English was so bad he'd be explaining things in Korean, then started scrawling on the chalkboard. I was at a school that subsequently became infamous for having a high level admin say that girls were bad at math. There was a terrible culture in that department and I very quickly dropped the course and never went back to math in college, earning a BA rather than a BS in my science major because of it.

Perhaps, had I not been an 18 year old college freshman, I would have known how to fight for a decent instructor and more respect in the dept., but there it is. And that was a fancy private university. I can't imagine what less enfranchised students in overcrowded local college lecture halls have to deal with.

Aah algebra. I remember that from high school... interpolating logarithms (by hand, not with a calculator) and all that fun.

Do I remember how to do it? Hell no. I'd have to get out an old textbook and look it over again.

Is algebra necessary? SHIT YES!

I had a similar experience to AllieP - I went to take Calc for my B.Sc at a local college. I was in the first week of class and had a question. I waited until lecture was over (she didn't like interruptions during lecture) and posed my question.

Her response? "You look like an intelligent individual. I'm sure you can figure this out on your own."

I said, "I have one other question for you: can you sign my drop form?" I mean, I'm not going to stick around in a class (and waste my money on it!) with a teacher that's not going to be available for questions.

I waited for another semester and a different professor and had no issues.

Two thoughts: First, thank goodness Hacker is emeritus and not actually professing anymore. Second, he should stop picking on mathematics. At least his work is eligible for a Nobel Prize.

On the same day as the pathetic editorial about not needing algebra came out, the NYT ran another editorial, right next to it, titled "Medicaid After the Supreme Court's Decision." It contained this statistical gem: "Deaths among people ages 20 to 64 dropped in the three expansion states by about 1,500 a year, adjusted for population growth, whereas death rates in the comparison states went up" - note that the author compares a total against a rate. This is an excellent example of what John Allen Paulos calls "innumeracy" and is an excellent argument for more algebra training.

Coincidentally, this was my Joke of the Day yesterday:
Physics
A college physics professor was explaining a particularly complicated concept to his class when a pre-med student interrupted him.
"Why do we have to learn this stuff?" one young man blurted out.
"To save lives," the professor responded before continuing the lecture.
A few minutes later the student spoke up again. "So how does physics save lives?"
The professor stared at the student for a long time without saying a word. Finally the professor continued.
"Physics saves lives," he said, "because it keeps certain people out of medical school."

There may be parts of the school curriculum that are there for historical reasons, that contribute neither to someone's future plans nor to their existence as a well rounded individual (though I realize the latter is thought pointless in these utilitarian arguments). Algebra is not one of them. I majored in history. I actually use algebra and stats fairly regularly.

This is a new one. Usually, they argue about why kids shouldn't be forced to learn trig because "only engineers use that." My husband, father, and father in law all have math degrees. I once threw that one out just to see their reaction, and a look of incredible pain came over all their faces.

A political science professor suggests that algebra should be replaced with "political science math".

That's as reasonable as me thinking algebra should be replaced with microbiology.

Another round fired in the war on knowledge. The 1 % trying to keep the 99 % as ignorant as possible so they can manipulate them.
Do you know what else we learn in algebra, physics, geography, or history classes? We learn HOW to learn. We travel the road from confusion to competence. Then we start the next chapter and do it again. Over and over. A great teacher makes it exciting. A good teacher makes it possible. A bad teacher breaks the chain, and the students never do become competent.
I thought the point of giving kids calculators in grade school was to make more time for mathematics instead of arithmetic.

The skill and competence of your teacher makes a huge difference. I was lucky enough to be taught mathematics by a teacher who was infectiously enthusiastic about the subject. He studied at Oxford and Princeton and worked on cracking the Enigma code with Turing at Bletchley Park during WW2. I owe him a great deal.

I wrestled with algebra in high school. I took it again and wrestled with it again when I got my first B. Sci. I am now going for another bachelor's and have taken it again (and in middle age did better at it than I did in my teens and twenties). I am now looking forward to pre-calculus for the second time around in my current degree program - I dropped it the first time for medical problems. I will still have calculus after that.
As a physician assistant, I frequently needed algebra. You'd better have it if you do things based on such measurements as body surface area or glomerular flow rate (Google it.). I was hampered from assisting more effectively in the research I was employed in by my weak understanding of statistics and my lack of calculus.
I have always shied away from math because it's not easy for me, but there have been so many days that I regretted not having tried harder - "I'm never going to use this stuff" - because mathematics is the language that expresses how things happen in the real, physical, world we live in.

*facepalm*

I read the entire text on NYT, it's just mind-numbingly stupid.

One question comes to my mind: what level of Algebra is actually taught in US schools? (I am German). Does he refer to more abstract concepts such as Linear Algebra or just 'calculating simple stuff with x and y instead of numbers'? If that is really what he referes too, skipping Algebra in school is like sending kids out to go to college without knowing any math at all.

PS: One of my favourite idiotic statements in the text without a morsel of proof: "It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs."

... Slightly on/off topic:

These kind of arguments seems to be coming a lot from the arts lately, where they're trying to get more interest/funding by suggesting that creativity and innovation is somehow being overshadowed by you know, learning about mathematics. Apparently only ever learning the three Rs are making our students into feeble-minded sheeple.

As an artist, I wish I had a better grasp of mathematics. It took me a long time to get my head around tax forms and budgeting. I wish my fellow artists would stop harping on about making arts equal with science, as if the only way new innovations existed was with the creativity learned from band practice. Also, on a more personal note, if I had figured out that I liked science more than I thought (a recent thing) I would have taken more opportunities at school and university to learn them and be more employable in the long run.

What's worse is the seeming portrayal that arts is all about intuition and the underlying woo-mongering that the world would be better if we could just cut out the materialism and create a hippy-dippy all-loving educational system that treats every pupil as if they were special and *always* nurtures the specialness no matter which way the talent trends towards and no matter how much it costs the schools to implement. (According to one person I read, if it weren't for some smart attentiveness by one teacher, The Beatles wouldn't have existed, for all primary/secondary teachers ignored the *obvious* talent for one member of the band. It never occured to them I suppose that good art comes at the cost of time, experience, practice and luck and had nothing to do with attentive teaching or lack of)

It's an appeal to people who don't like the idea of "teaching to the test" but don't actually have a better way of quantifying learning; and the parent's wish to see their child nurtured in every way. This is education freedom - like health freedom, it's not so much about choice as it is about promoting their own special-snowflake style education, where truly, no one gets left behind and artists can feel safe in the knowledge that no one ever looks down on their careers again.

(... Sigh... I really wish artists would learn more about science so if nothing else, they wouldn't get upset about criticism of their ideas or work. Scientists don't seem to take it personally: why do they?)

I bring this up because it's a startling trend I'm noticing coming from my own field, and I'm willing to bet most skeptics haven't seen much of it yet.

I was very fortunate in that I had good teachers and heard no stereotypes at home about women being poor in this subject ( because they were amongst the business types in my family)- during my diverse and far-flung educational odyssey, I was placed in an achievers' group at age 10 or 11 and wound up tutoring other students for fun and profit. Later on, a high muckity-muck in stat gave me great encouragement, although I didn't follow down the pathway he had mapped out for me. I can't fathom how a person can truly understand research without confident knowledge in algebra.

Hilariously, woo-meisters I survey carp about the low level of education youngsters suffer, proposing drastic reforms- Why? They're biting the hand that feeds them! In reality, the reason they have so many customers and acolytes is BECAUSE of poor educational systems that allow kids to go on without acquiring basic skills in literacy and numeracy which makes them prime targets for pseudo-scientific hacks selling their wares, be they bad products or worse theories.

In an era of frightening economic trends, political manoeuverors make bank on the general public's inability to comprehend economics which also requires grounding in algebra. How can anyone believe that the price of gold will just keep on accelerating as if there were no tomorrow- as if it had no basis in buying patterns! Similarly, bad products ( investments, newsletters- and believe me, that is an entire other area of woo) and ideas abound in this realm as well. So when there are a few quarters of negative growth, why not cut back on governmental spending? That'll fix things up really good!**

@ Krebiozen:

As I watch my US and UK prices come in on television, the crappy washing-machine-part Olympic tower looms in the background! It is so bad that if they eventually chop it up into tiny parts to be purchased for a worthy charity, I will get one! And proudly display it on my wall.

** Sarcasm.

OT- but is vaccine-autism lunacy ever truly OT @ RI?
( I should think not).

@ Thinking Moms' Revolution today, "Snap" appears to diagnose a relative's child as well as recommend a diet and woo-friendly doctors and then claims victory. Yes, she did.

@ flip:
Hello. Educational freedom. I know. Awfulness.

I,for one,am going to come to this guy's defense.In addition to autism,I have a whole slew of learning disabilities.One of these,is a particularly nasty form of dyscalculia.The stereotype of the number crunching aspie/autistic,who can calculate pi to a million decimal places,is just that,a stereotype.

American schools are still stuck in the outdated 19th century,post-Sputnik,whatever model,that one of their main jobs is to prepare students for,and track them for,college.The simple fact is,not everybody is college material.What we need is a system,where,somewhere in middle school,students,and parents,are given an option to opt out of the traditional school model,and replace it with a mixed program of academics,and on the job apprenticeships,so a young person might be able to jump right into a job,by the time they are eighteen or twenty.

I know that in a number of European countries,especially Germany,and Scandinavia,such practices have been in place forever.It's about time the US joined the more rational countries of the world.

Please someone send this to the New York Times. It is embarrassing that they published that. Thanks for the post Orac.

Roger:

I don't think dyscalculia is a reason not to teach algebra. It's a reason to find ways to accommodate people with dyscalculia and help them to learn math.

Again, science fiction was there first, with Isaac Asimov's "The Feeling of Power." The 1957 short story describes a future where mathematics has been completely forgotten because of calculators (a good 15 years before they become common) and one man rediscovers the rules of multiplication. My favorite bit is where a general suggests putting human pilots in guided nuclear missiles (figuring trajectories with pencil and paper) because that will be cheaper and easier to replace than guidance computers.

It isn't the algebra they're expected to learn that's causing students to give up and drop out--it's failing to achieve a passing grade in whatever subjects they're having trouble with.

So instead of dropping algebra, let's just eliminate testing and pass everyone. That'll fix things.

(/sarcasm off)

Yet another uncaring idiot doing his bit to dumb down the population so they won't be inclined to do troubling things like using their own minds and questioning their "betters."

Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower.

How can you develop ANY kind of talent without teaching kids basic skills? And no, requiring kids to learn basic skills does not deplete brainpower, it enhances it.

I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers.

In other words, he says this as a knowing hypocrite who seeks to deny other kids the opportunities he enjoys.

My aim is not to spare students from a difficult subject, but to call attention to the real problems we are causing by misdirecting precious resources.

When you have a cushy job with a newspaper that doesn't require (or even want) you to question the established mindset, it's easy to think of effort directed toward other kids' betterment as "misdirected." Are there no jails, no workhouses?

American schools are still stuck in the outdated 19th century,post-Sputnik,whatever model...

"Whatever?" Is it "19th century" or "post-Sputnik?" If you can't even get that straight, then you're too dumb to be telling others how to educate their kids.

What we need is a system,where,somewhere in middle school,students,and parents,are given an option to opt out of the traditional school model,and replace it with a mixed program of academics,and on the job apprenticeships...

In other words, let's have kids spend less time learning things that will help them live up to their full potental, and more time doing unpaid work. Let me guess...you think Newt Gingrich is a bold innovator, right?

Also, I notice PZ and Democratic Underground are taking this hack named Hacker down. Glad to see this backward idiocy is at least being noticed.

Replace "algebra" with "biology" in Hacker's article, and you'd have the creationist agenda.

@Denice

I wouldn't mind so much if it were based on you know, evidence. There's actually some good studies out there on music helping with maths. Usually if they cite stuff it's from "arts experts", not scientific studies that actually show that arts does what they say it does.

But then they go off the deep end by talking about the arts as if music lessons will save your kid from ending up an office drone unable to breathe. It smacks of projection to me.

I work in a particular area that requires some understanding of the laws of physics in order to make the art. Knowing about chemical compounds and the way materials interact is helpful too. The truth is a little from each goes a long way. Yes, we should push for more funding in the arts: but not at the expense of understanding how to read and write and count. Artists will need those far more than the "educational freedom" people try to present.

In their defense, a lot of this is coming from artists themselves, so I guess you can't blame them for using non-scientific arguments. (Which kind of makes my point above about needing both)

@Roger

Having experienced some of what you mean (not being college material or having an aptitude for sitting still in class and preferred making things)...

I think it depends on where you live. I am always confused by the American system where it seems you don't study a single focused course (correct me if I'm wrong), but instead choose from a range of subjects. Here in Australia we choose a specific course which will follow to a specific career. This means that you or I can attend a university/college that is more practical and less academic. Most of my time spent at uni was not on writing essays or doing research, but actually learning and practicing in a real-world environment. (Most of our "exams" were based more on participation in class activities) There are also government programs here which are designed to get people connected with local businesses and offer on-the-job training, and are generally aimed at school-leavers or uni graduates.

But also, I think that there will be problems no matter how the education system is structured. How do you get around the issue that not everyone is suited to sitting in a classroom? How do you measure improvement without some sort of exam or assignment? Not every teaching method suits every student; the good teachers mix up the activities so there are fewer bored students.

From a purely anecdotal experience, when I did my final years of high school there was "easy maths" (algebra) and "hard maths" (parabolas and other things); two different subjects entirely. I flunked the latter and passed the former. For some reason I have a better head for algebra than I do for other types of calculations.

harey,

The term "algebra" as it is generally used in US secondary education typically is used only to refer to the algebra of the real numbers (with a small amount of complex algebra sprinkled in). The more general definition of "algebra" typically used by mathematicians is not the algebra taught in US secondary schools. You won't see Lie algebras, linear algebra (at least not rigorously taught; some algebra courses do deal with a small amount of matrix arithmetic), Boolean algebra, or any other more general algebraic system. Typically, most of the algebra involved is solving first and second degree polynomial equations.

@Raging Bee

In other words, let’s have kids spend less time learning things that will help them live up to their full potental, and more time doing unpaid work. Let me guess…you think Newt Gingrich is a bold innovator, right?

In my experience, the people who had internships with local companies before graduating had a greater chance of actually landing a job when they do leave. (Internships are paid work here) As with all things: it's not what you know...

Roger Kulp,

I agree with you, not every kid is college material. However, that's the whole point of a high school education. High school is the last chance for those kids who aren't college material to get the academic background they need to be successful in life.

Removing mathematics requirements from HS curricula is a dumb idea, even for those kids who aren't going on to college. In past times, there were plentiful blue-collar jobs that didn't really require much in the way of academic ability. Pretty much anyone willing to actually do the work would be qualified for such tasks. The modern economy is different. Even in the manufacturing sector, jobs require skills and training. A basic level of academic knowledge certainly is helpful in preparing one for a job in the modern economy. Further, and even more importantly, learning how to learn and how to solve problems is a crucial skill today. That's why math is necessary.

This entire hatred for Algebra stems from the fact that it requires some significant effort to understand. Also, as has been pointed out above, it requires good teachers to allow us to understand the subject, rather than approach it via rote and memorization.

When I had just entered high school, I'd just barely get a passing grade in math. I thank my tutor who had a very clear idea about the subject and a great knack for teaching. He made me slog like a slave driver. The end result - I absolutely love math (especially vector calculus) and I ended up scoring 99% in math.

Sadly though, everyone is not fortunate enough to have such inspiring and interested teachers

@ flip:

One of my cousins never got a degree but creates 'movie magic': at age 20 or so, he started working for a firm that sent him- over time- for training in the US, UK, Germany et al where he learned various skills utilised in recording, robotic cameras and editing and his formal title is some sort of engineer. He was always a decent student but never really cared about it and never made elaborate plans for his education: fortunately, the elderly gentleman who owned the company saw promise in him and sent him to the right schools. I venture that most readers of RI have seen his work in the many movies he's worked on.
And he is extremely hipsterish-looking lately so I assume he fits in everywhere he works.

AllieP:

And that was a fancy private university. I can’t imagine what less enfranchised students in overcrowded local college lecture halls have to deal with.

At my large state university there were three days of lecture, with two days of quiz sessions. The latter were smaller, with a teaching assistant (usually a graduate student) who gave more personal attention, explained concepts and did actually qive quick quizzes. I had some very good enthusiastic teaching assistants, who also had office hours to further explain the concepts.

My problem was that as an over enthusiastic science nerd I wanted to take calculus, chemistry and physics my first quarter. The advisor had me substitute an English class for one, and I dropped the chemistry.

The mistake was that I should have had the calculus before physics. I actually learned the calculus concepts in the physics class before we go to them in the actual math class.

My younger son was one the huge percentage (up to 50%) who did not get into the engineering program at that same large state university (there is a shortage of lab space, and almost every class requires some kind of lab time, and in one that includes a metal foundry). He was getting a bit put off by some of the classes (material science, statics, etc), but he likes the math. So he switched to the math department on the teaching track, to hopefully become a high school math teacher.

He has been a swim teacher since tenth grade, and it really a very patient and understanding teacher. So I hope he will be part of the math education solution. Only time will tell.

Wildly OT...
Denice,

As I watch my US and UK prices come in on television, the crappy washing-machine-part Olympic tower looms in the background!

Ah yes, The Monstrosity as I have christened it. I hope the engineer/architect who designed it had a good grounding in math! I keep expecting to see it has toppled over. They are currently charging £15 per person, plus £10 to enter the Olympic Park, making £25, over $50, to ascend the tower to enjoy the stunning views - kerrching, as they say - so I doubt they will be dismembering it any time soon.

A couple of days ago I finally went and had a look around the Westfield shopping mall, which you have to walk through to get to the Olympic Park, and don't think I have ever seen a greater temple to Mammon, with more people than on Christmas Eve in Oxford Street. Picked up some good bargains though.

The mistake was that I should have had the calculus before physics.

It helps a lot to do it in this order. My high school didn't actually offer calculus, so to stay active I did it by correspondence course from the University of Wisconsin system. It was at a pretty simple level (Thomas & Finney), but it got me into honors freshman physics and honors calc, where we did the whole thing over again rigorously using Spivak.

@ Krebiozen:
Also wildly OT:
Oh boy! It's going to become some sort of icon, isn't it? Like a lesser, crappier Tour d'Eiffel or that miserable World's Fair globe at the US Open! Eternally obnoxious and nearly indestructible..
Hope you get to see something better than it @ the venue.
I'll watch Wimbledon redux...

And I suppose Temples of Mammon can be useful for the economy. I seem to recall having traipsed ( with money in pocket) around a few *older* establishments there as well as those in Paris and NY. .

Well, since anecdotes are evidence to the author of this op-ed piece: I dropped out of high school in the ninth grade. I took high school level algebra in middle school and aced the courses. So, obviously, going through the "ordeal" of failing classes didn't contribute to my dropping out.

And, seriously, we're calling struggling and potentially failing a course in school an "ordeal"? What a wonderful life this guy must lead if that's the worst of what he's gone through in his life.

@Roger

I can't speak for the rest of Scandinavia, but the portion in which I live, if you're not going to college, you can go to a trade school - but you still have all the core classes, algebra (and higher math) included.

You just have your carpentry, etc classes on top of those.

For what it's worth; the US does have 'technical' high schools - there were two in the area where I grew up. Regular courses that satisfied the state requirements, and trade courses alongside them.

I'm not a math whiz, and struggled through the minimum requirements at high school. I enrolled in the local junior college and was told I'd have to go through it all again in order to take the ONE math class I needed for my major because, of course, I'd managed to forget all my algebra during my gap year and bombed spectacularly on the intake test.

Fine and so be it. I slogged through two semesters of algebra and I'm still not sure how I passed. Then I enrolled in the one math class required for my major: Math for Liberal Arts.

It's the only math class I've ever aced. In fact, it was fun!

Why? Because all that dry math I'd choked down was finally applied to real-world situation. From comparing credit cards offers, to calculating mortgages, to (the basics of) statistics. It was so much easier when I could use the math practically.

So, based on my experience, I think the presentation of the material is critical. Show students how this math is going to impact their daily lives and the dropout rates will sink like a stone.

This blog is too hard on Hacker's article. Many of the comments sound as if they haven't read the article either.

I'm one who understands the importance of science. But, all the time I spent struggling with quadratic equations and polynomials actually turned me off science and math at a young age, so much so that there was no chance of me being a scientist. Everybody is not going to be a practicing, working scientist, so why must we waste so much time learning skills we'll never use? The time would be better spent teaching us critical thinking skills so that we could be better voters and citizens in general.

You could argue about which kind of med students need algebra, and which don't, but that's not the centre of the article.

Algebraic literacy is a specialised skill that not everyone needs. Being able to perform algebra is not a requirement for most people's careers, and for many people, it is little more than a hoop.

The blog writer's suggestion that we switch the word 'algebra' to 'english' and see how Hacker likes it is just plain dumb. Hacker is not saying anything about too much language skill instruction. His criticism is aimed at algebra and algebra alone. It's a discussion worth having.

We can't teach everything, so instead of leaping to the defense of algebra, let's prioritize high-school math topics by how useful they are in daily life.

I'd put a basic understanding of probability as #1. Algebra is a ways down, and pre-calculus is close to the bottom.

I hated mathematics though could always see the point in arithmetic.

(Wavey lines as I wander back to the past and my early days in the RN)

I could never see the point in calculus or algebra until one day, while training on a ward, a patient was prescribed a highly toxic drug but, rather than be given I/M, S/C or even I/D (is anything given intradermally these days?) it was decided he needed it I/V.

So it had to be given very slowly in an infusion of Normal Saline over a fairly long period.

I'll never forget my astonishment at watching a very junior houseman (I think you call them Interns) casually sit down, work out how many drops from the IV line it would take to deliver the drug over a 12 hour period.
From that he worked out the volume of each drip so worked out how much of the drug would be administered in each individual drop.

I have no idea if he was just doing it to impress but if he did, It worked.

(Having thought about it he could have made the whole thing up. But I don't think so)

I love this site, most use science, I just fall back on anecdotes.

Narad:

It helps a lot to do it in this order. My high school didn’t actually offer calculus, so to stay active I did it by correspondence course from the University of Wisconsin system.

The high school I was at was going to start offering calculus the year after I took trig/intro to analysis (now called pre-calculus). Our class got to review the proposed text books.

The trouble was that my dad retired, and was moving to another state to a tiny town, which was then not offering calculus.

Fortunately, I had already obtained enough credits to graduate after my junior year. So I only went to two high schools instead of three.

I’m with Orac: Hell, yes!
This guy (Hacker) has it backwards. It’s not that the standards for high school and college are too high – it’s that the standards for elementary and middle school are too low. You don’t fix the system by getting rid of standards. You fix the system by prioritizing quality education for younger students, so they can achieve the already minimal standards we have.

But there’s no evidence that being able to prove (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis.

If Mr Hacker is describing himself, he sure got that part right! My opinion of his analysis is that he’s promoting a bunch of excuses for poor performance.

But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar.

I disagree, Mr Hacker: it is easy to see why potential poets and philosophers need math. It’s not because they need to apply to their profession – they need math because they vote!

I love the idea that people that use the various machines in medicine, or really any walk of life, don’t need to understand what’s going on inside, the equations in use or what the machine is doing at all. Never mind that without doctors feeding back to technologists there would never be impovements in function here.

That reminds me of the hospital in Idiocracy. No one knows how the machines work. Patients are diagnosed by inserting some probes and the computer reads the input. The place seems to run on machinery made by the last competent people, who tried to idiot-proof it all.

---

As for my math history, definitely using algebra in my life. I'm doing some GIS programming that requires some geometry knowledge. And, of course, I need knowledge of algebra, statistics, and probability to understand what's going on in the world around me. !!SCIENCE!! is happening all around the world, and since the media's so often incompetent, I have to watch out for how they're potentially distorting the story, and that quite often requires an understanding of math.

Hacker's writing for folks like me: The people who did well at everything in school BUT math. These are the people who become woo addicts and Journalism majors, among other things.

Well, I'm going to wildly guessimate- before I depart- that woo-meisters, like those I survey, are not breathtakingly skilled in mathematics- except of course, lower level skills like adding up receipts at their virtual stores, figuring profits, dreaming about future growth. They don't really need much algebra for that. Their knowledge of statistics used in research is beyond comprehension- especially their own.

But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar.

I'm sure Frege, Gödel, and Russell would be fascinated with this one.

@ Peebs: I can recall having to show my nursing skills during rotations through pediatric units. You didn't get a "pass" until you correctly figured the drop rate per minute...especially difficult when you were using the mini-drop IV set-up, on a very young infant:

http://www.pharmacy-tech-study.com/ivinfusion.html

It's so much easier now with IV infusion pumps.

(I should perhaps further note that formal logic is a prerequisite in any undergraduate philosophy program that I've ever heard of. The intro sequence at my alma mater was taught from The Logic Book, which I seem to have gotten rid of but recall as being propositional logic. They must have had to do predicate logic as well, certainly if progressing to a postcollegiate degree program. Might as well get the hang of axiomatizations down sooner rather than later. Maybe Hacker fancies himself a "philosopher" by default or something.)

I will give this guy one thing - statistics is an under-taught subject, one that is absolutely necessary for a well-informed populace. Generally speaking, we suck at statistics, and I believe this is a big contributor to bad decision-making and the appeal of pseudoscience.

For algebra (indeed all of math), I agree that it's an instructor issue. My own anecdote - I struggled with math until high school, where I had an excellent AP calculus instructor. I ended up testing out of the intro classes at college - the big-class rote ones that turn people off of math - and ended up getting a math minor. So good instructors do make a difference - but they require investment, and an investment of time and brainpower as well as money.

Rosie Redfield: " We can’t teach everything, so instead of leaping to the defense of algebra, let’s prioritize high-school math topics by how useful they are in daily life. . . .I’d put a basic understanding of probability as #1. Algebra is a ways down, and pre-calculus is close to the bottom."

How, exactly do you teach a basic understanding of probability without algebra? That's like teaching a basic understanding of composition without teaching grammar.

But why only prioritize math? History, literature, geography, science, and most foreign language classes are also fairly useless for most Americans in day to day life.

If we really prioritize, we can cut education down to 6 years, no problem. If all we need is basic reading, basic writing, and basic math, why require anyone to go beyond 6th grade?

Years ago, when I took chemistry, microbiology and physiology it was a great feat to even enroll in these classes as they were impacted. On the first day of class there were always masses of students standing around and forming a line outside the door waiving add cards at the instructors. Back then the science classes had no prereqs. The instructors were frustrated over this because “half of their classes were failing due to a lack of understanding algebra”. These classes were prerequisites for those wanting to get into programs in the allied health fields.

On the first day of chem. the instructor wrote a simple algebraic equation on the board and told the class if they could not solve this they needed to get up and give their seat to someone on the wait list. He suggested they come back after successfully completing an algebra course.

The physiology and microbiology instructors wrote the same equation on the board the first day of class but took it one step further and included a paragraph from the text. The argument was that students taking the classes did not only lack the math skills but also the reading comprehension to successfully complete the class.

Nowadays, there is a algebra prereq. requirement to take chemistry, and a chemistry and English comp. requirement to enroll in microbiology and human physiology as there should be.

Apparently the "Why Algebra?" has been going on for some time as this article which is a booster for algebra education shows).

Another resource for real-life maths (including algebra) uses is here (it's a link-out to a NASA site).

There was a show my wife watched, called Numb3rs if memory serves, in which a maths professor used his skills to assisst his FBI agent brother in solving crimes.

I couldn't tell you how accurate the show was, but if it is then conceptually it's another point in favour of algebra and other maths.

Narad,

I’m sure Frege, Gödel, and Russell would be fascinated with this one.Descartes also springs to mind...

Blockquote fail. Optician appointment eagerly awaited.

Then again, if you're good in math class you will not be Governor of Texas.

Hm. How 'bout a pop quiz required before one could become a state governor, with questions randomly chosen from linear algebra, statistics, differential equations

and what was the 3rd one?

I just remembered an incident at a hospital I worked at when a doctor got a decimal point in the wrong place, when calculating the dose of digoxin for a baby. The baby survived, somehow. I suspect that's the kind of error you only make once.

@ Krebiozen...Digoxin and Lanoxin (oral elixir), are scary medications. I know, I titrated my infant's Lanoxin, each day while he was on tube feedings.

How about this major mistake with heparin IV flushes?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18560_162-3936412.html

@ Krebiozen...Digoxin and Lanoxin (oral elixir), are scary medications. I know, I titrated my infant's Lanoxin, each day while he was on tube feedings.

How about this major mistake with heparin IV flushes?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18560_162-3936412.html

Yikes. A thousand-fold overdose of heparin? I remember talking to some friends of mine who were paid more than twice my salary, yet if they made a mistake the worst that could happen was their company lost some money. In the medical field, the consequences of a lapse of concentration can be a lot more serious.

(… Sigh… I really wish artists would learn more about science so if nothing else, they wouldn’t get upset about criticism of their ideas or work. Scientists don’t seem to take it personally: why do they?)

Apples and oranges. Artistic and literary creations are just that: creations; artists actually put something of themselves into their work, so it's very hard not to take it personally. Scientists, OTOH, deal with phenomena that exist independently of them as persons (if Darwin and Pasteur had actually made the deathbed statements cranks attribute to them, it would have zero bearing on the correctness of germ theory and natural selection). They deal with discoveries, not personal creations; the scientist who treats his ideas as personal at best is impeded in his efforts and at worst becomes a crank.

An artist can't help developing a degree of attachment to his creations. A scientist has to avoid getting attached to his theories because they could turn out to be wrong at any time; they're awfully fickle companions.

I had a great geometry teacher in high school, but the algebra and trigonometry teachers were awful. Vectors saved me. There was no AP anything where I went, but I loved chemistry and physics (and still do). I ended up in network security/computer forensics... Go figure. Thankfully, I'm not a doctor.

Please don't use this silly NYT piece to make inferences about political scientists as a group. Many of us are quite sensible about the importance of math (and, heaven forfend, statistics and even calculus) as a vital tool in understanding the world.

Story problems, not so much, but that's a different issue.

The dumbing down of education is tragic. It's one reason why the magical thinking behind quackery has gained a foothold.

Ken Mayer
Professor of Political Science
University of Wisconsin-Madison

I suspect the author doesn't know what algebra actually is or how it is used. Or he has in mind one small portion of algebra not realizing how much stems from this one small portion. I understand what he is trying to say, but he's trying to say it from a woefully ignorant (as in "lack of knowledge") background.

Ken:

Story problems, not so much, but that’s a different issue.

Life is a story problem. You encounter them all the time.

You have room to paint, how much paint do you buy? If it comes to two gallons plus a bit under half a gallon, is it more economical to buy two quarts or another full gallon?

You need to get from Point A to Point B, and a certain amount is at freeway speeds with some surface streets, how should you allow for travel time? How much fuel will you need to budget for?

Which is cheaper per can: a 20-pack of soda for $5.99 or buy four 12-packs at 3.39 per pack (price only for four or more)?

Would it better to get the thirty year mortgage or the fifteen year mortgage at a slightly lower rate? How much compound interest do you get with a CD that compounds monthly versus daily?

On the latter, it is perhaps sufficient to know about those financial equations. Personally I think its relationship with a very important transcendental number is just cool.

Hello everyone,

perhaps you can help, this old dog here always had problem with math (which come down to my speed of writing, I suffer badly from dysgraphia). Usually, I can understand the concept well enough but the thing is the speed at which the instructor give his courses.

For a calculus course, it's given in 36 hours to cover half a textbook but I'd need something north of 80 hours for the same content; basically, I'm the poster boy for distance education with courses on a dvd, I can click pause or rewind if needed.

What I'm looking for is for excellent self-learning textbook, the kind of textbook for which I could learn on my own without any outside intervention. I'll be taking a sabbatical from school for at least a year and I intend to work regular shift in a factory (which I applied last week). I need a textbook for pre-cal with trig, calculus, matrix & linear algebra and finally, statistics.

Can you help me?

Thanks
A.L.

I'm actually not very good at maths in general - I find it dificult, and there are some concepts I've just never been able to grasp entirely (non-real numbers, for example).

But I am an engineer. It's critical to at least understand basic physics and maths. Not just for people in my profession though.

As people have said above, anyone with a medical background. Accountants. People deciding how large to dig a swimming pool. People working out which route is faster.

Possibly the only people with no use for algebra are political "science" majors...

I'm actually not very good at maths in general - I find it dificult, and there are some concepts I've just never been able to grasp entirely (non-real numbers, for example).

But I am an engineer. It's critical to at least understand basic physics and maths. Not just for people in my profession though.

As people have said above, anyone with a medical background. Accountants. People deciding how large to dig a swimming pool. People working out which route is faster.

Possibly the only people with no use for algebra are political "science" majors...

Kat:

I’ve just never been able to grasp entirely (non-real numbers, for example).

I love them, I am a big fan of Euler and Fourier. Though I mostly did structural dynamics and vibration.

But I am an engineer.

You must be like my husband. We were in the same differential equations class. He hated it, I liked it (I hated the instructor, I like differential equations). He majored in electrical engineering, going into computer stuff. I tease him that he only has to count with "0"s and "1"s.

But you are right, that most people do not need to go past calculus, or even algebra. But you really cannot skip it entirely.

You certainly are at a disadvantage- if you have poor skills- trying to comprehend various measures when making investments or attempting to follow news about them There are many who use this fact to sell people advice, methods et al most of which are bogus.

Please don't draw any inferences about political scientists from this piece. Most of us are quite sensible about the importance of math (even statistics and calculus!) as a too for understanding the world.

Story problems not so much, but that's a separate issue.

The dumbing down of education is a tragedy, and one reason why medical quackery has a foothold.

Chris: I've always liked engineering (civil/construction) for the physics side of it, plus I get to play outside in the mud. Maths was just a means to an end. I think it's that way for a lot of people, but I admire those who genuinely enjoy it!

That said, I don't currently use my skills in English Literature, or Music. But I don't regret having studied them - it's part of being a well-rounded individual.

My favorite part of the article is where he says

It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.

I just...what? How does he get to just decide that this is true?

The late and much missed Jacob Bronowski was a mathematician and philosopher of science who liked to point out that creativity in art and science are much alike. They both call for making connections that have never been made, or made in the same way, before. He also pointed out that mathematicians are often talented musicians as well, and the reverse seems to be true - in World War II, the British turned military bandsmen into codebreakers with great success. It may be that his most important point is that eras of great scientific advances are usually ones of great artistic ferment as well, the two seeming in some ways to drive each other.
It might also be pointed out that unless kids are exposed to hard subjects against their will, many will never find out what they are capable of, and many who might have gone on to excel in fields like science and engineering will instead take the easy way out, as kids so often do.

AdamG

But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.

And Hacker totally misses the fact that struggling through and mastering classroom algebra is one of the things that teaches perseverance.

Hacker (in article): " Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower. I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers."

Firstly, seeing how Orac's blog on this issue panned out, I'm thinking that Hacker's main reason for holding the beliefs he professes there is that he is shite with numbers! Also, the making mandatory of mathematical studies is not 'for rigour' ... it is about attempting to foster some sort of competence with quantities, space, data and various structures that exist in the more abstract levels of conceptualisation... like group theory, which helps us to count stuff we couldn't count 'by hand' (as it were). The guy's a bloody idiot!

Redloh: "Count me as a casualty of an awful algebra teacher. He graded our whole class on a curve otherwise many of us would have gotten a failing grade. He appeared to be quite a mathematician but not a teacher and lasted just that year."

Our maths teacher at school was exactly the same: great at maths but not so good at teaching it. The whole maths thing started making sense to me when I began studies in engineering in 1991... 13 yrs after leaving school.

Spectator: "The problem with algebra is that students might actually have to do homework rather than bs their way through it. One can creatively grade a rambling, brain damaged attempt at an essay as good, but it takes some effort to convert wrong answers into full credit on an algebra test."

Bingo! When I taught maths and had to grade student assignments, the basic thing was that you can start off with 100% of the available marks - and it would be errors that reduced your overall score on the test.

JohnV: "A political science professor suggests that algebra should be replaced with 'political science math'."

And PSM is .... maths for the bloody incompetent, right?

harey: "PS: One of my favourite idiotic statements in the text without a morsel of proof: 'It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.'"

I live and try to work in Finland. These people are fiercely proud of their PISA test results but what I've found as a result of doing freelance lectures in what we might call 'quantitative techniques in applied social studies' is that - after they leave school - they tend to be frigging useless at the stuff. The issue with PISA is that the results are not reliable since many subjects have national moderation but no continental/federal moderation. Now where's that elastic tape measure gone ..... ?

RK: "I,for one,am going to come to this guy’s defense.In addition to autism,I have a whole slew of learning disabilities.One of these,is a particularly nasty form of dyscalculia."

SpLDs such as dyslexia and dyscalculia, etc, are NOT reasons to weaken the mathematical curriculum ... ever! They are reasons to support the development of methods by which those experiencing SpLDs - and I'm speaking as one such person and one trained in understaning and remediating for these things - to get a better grip on these issues than we otherwise would in a mainstream setting. See what I wrote about my late grasp of maths above, and also bear in mind that my specialty in teaching maths was in fact remedial teaching for adults taking examinations in grade school and higher mathematical topics.

Raging Bee: ".... he says this as a knowing hypocrite who seeks to deny other kids the opportunities he enjoys."

Are you saying the guy is a total arsehole???? ;)

Evan Gough: " His criticism is aimed at algebra and algebra alone."

Yes. And algebra is the basis for which just about everything else in mathematics rests. You can't do statistics and probability without good basic skills in algebra; you can't get to grips with understanding the nature of numbers without having a bloody good grip on algebra; you can't get into solving equations simultaneously - either as equations or as elements in matrices without a bloody good grip on algebra; we even deal with a lot of trigomometric stuff algebraically... and the same goes for geometry. So ... sure ... let's get rid of algebra. And while we're at it, let's take anatomy and physiology out of the medical and nursing curricula - you know, because they're such intensely hard subjects, and replace them with stuff that people can easiliy ace. Would you want a doctor and a nurse with THAT sort of training looking after your health? If so, you're pretty much on your own!

Rosie Redfield: "I’d put a basic understanding of probability as #1. Algebra is a ways down, and pre-calculus is close to the bottom."

If it's 'a ways down' then your understanding of probability is going to suck.

Prof. K. Mayer:
"Please don’t use this silly NYT piece to make inferences about political scientists as a group. Many of us are quite sensible about the importance of math (and, heaven forfend, statistics and even calculus) as a vital tool in understanding the world.

Story problems, not so much, but that’s a different issue.

The dumbing down of education is tragic. It’s one reason why the magical thinking behind quackery has gained a foothold.

Ken Mayer
Professor of Political Science
University of Wisconsin-Madison"

Thank you, Professor.

Just about everything in mathematics involves the manipulation of quantities - concrete or abstract - whilst keeping an equation balanced; and this manipulation of quantities is the essence of what is done in algebra (certainly at the levels taught before anyone even thinks about going to university). Skimping on the teaching of algebra will inevitably lead to the worsening of mathematical competence further down the road, because if you cannot properly manipulate quantities and retain the balance of an equation.... you may as well forget trig, geometry, calculus, linear algebra, set theory, group theory, ring theory, in fact ... everything (including proofs, in which proofs are inevitably essayed algebraically).

lengthy comment in moderation... dealing with a few comments in one hit before i head off to do stuff....

autistic lurker

It may take a few hours and a bit of frustration but there are **excellent** self-paced maths courses of all kinds online - free. Start with some of the high school oriented courses and look around. What you need is one of the nifty tuition style courses that does a pretest to clearly identify your start point.

After that, the progressive learning and retesting ensures that anything you have problems with is automatically revised until you're ready for the next step. And if you ever get fed up with it? It cost you nothing in the first place. You've learned something. You can give it up with no cost or guilt. You can find another course that best suits your new needs.

I guess I am going to be the respectful opposition here, but it's not because math should not be offered. Allow me to start with the obligatory disclosure that I have a bachelor's degree in theoretical math from MIT and a doctorate in biochemistry from CIT (funny that Hacker should mention these two institutions in his otherwise poorly written article). One thing I learned during my formal studies was that some of my fellow students had an awful lot of talent in math, and it went way beyond mere perseverance. There seems to be a wide range in the ability to make the mental connections that go into the various levels of math, and this distinction seems to be deeper and more distinct than for other academic abilities (see below regarding a different article on the subject).

I think that some mathematical abilities have to be there from the start, and there are students who just don't have the right wiring, so to speak. Or to put it another way, somebody once pointed out that when it comes to word problems, there are two kinds of students -- those who have always been able to do them, and those who never have and never will. I don't know if it's quite that stark, but it's obviously pretty close to the truth.

And that leads to a much better researched and well written study that came out in the Los Angeles Times a few years ago:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-dropout30jan30,0,1678653.story

Basically, it argues pretty persuasively that there are students who would otherwise get through high school, but just lack that mental something that is required to understand and perform algebra at the high school level. I strongly suspect that this is the case, because I have tutored students (generally the children of friends) who lack ability and are trying to survive in math courses. There is always that moment when I am trying to get across something that is terribly obvious to me, but is not obvious at all to the student. Sometimes I can help them to grind through the material. The problem is that when it comes to advanced algebra, there is a lot of material that requires the right kind of mental wiring.

The question that Duke Helfand raises in the LA Times article is whether a student who would otherwise be able to graduate, and who has given it a try again and again, should end up a failure or a drop out for this and only this reason.

I think it's a fair question. I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that maybe we should allow a little flexibility into the system. That does not mean that we omit math from the curriculum for the majority of students who can handle it, but we might temper our righteousness with a little mercy for those who can do everything but algebra.

And one other point. I have been a volunteer judge in the state finals of the high school science fair for more than 20 years, and I have seen lots of really superior students. I don't think that these students are the products of failing schools.

In my own work (molecular and cellular biology), I find that I use algebra at some level pretty nearly every day of the week. My colleagues, believe it or not, come to me to check their own calculations. I'm all for strong math training, both in theory and in practical calculation skills, but it's not for every single student.

@Denice

I've had a less-glamourous but still similar experience. Some people I knew took pity on me when I was struggling to find my first job out of uni, and taught me their trade. It helps having the right kind of aptitude for this role, but really I was entirely learning on the job. They were willing to train me up; this is a rare quality in employers/colleagues I've found.

However now, I find that knowing how to do accounting would actually get me more work. Arts admin is practically the only full-time well paid job and without accounting skills, you can't get the job.

It would have been nice if my uni had also taught - along with proper resume writing and budgets, which they taught in brief - how to actually keep the books.

This is probably what I was trying to get at before: the artists who are going on about this educational freedom seem to either forget or ignore that any successful artist also needs to be a successful business person. Which means understanding how to add, subtract, etc. Instead they harp on about nebulous and unquantifiable ideas such as creativity and innovation and nurturing.

I'd be more on their side if they said "If your son/daughter has an aptitude for the arts, then we should ensure it is funded well: but still have a basis in science and maths so they can be more assured of building a profitable business". Instead of what they actually seem to be saying which is "Every child has an aptitude for the arts, and we need to make science and maths secondary because they stifle creativity and they'll grow up to be some middle management flunky".

... /end soapbox. Really, stop me before I continue on. ;)

@Johanna

Couldn't agree more.

@Evan

Did it occur to you that having an understanding of maths and statistics might help those of us who aren't scientists to better read and criticise studies that are produced by scientists?

For me, I have to rely on Orac and others to interpret studies because when I read about probabilities, etc my eyes glaze over. If I had more of a mathematical mind, I'd be able to better judge for myself what science says and what policies I want to support and what politicians I want to vote for. And I say this as someone who struggles with equations.

I actually wish I remembered more of my chem, psych and maths classes. I find the more I read about science and skepticism the more it would help me evaluate claims.

Example: how much anti-vaccinationism would there be if more people could understand the probability of getting hurt by the vaccines vs the probability of getting hurt by the disease?

Please forgive the long, somewhat off-topic, rant...

@ebohlman

I disagree. I am quite capable of separating criticism of my work vs criticism of me. It's hard to learn, but most people I know understand that you can't please everyone and make no attempt to do so. The best you can do is please yourself, and the rest you either take on board for improvement, or throw out if you disagree.

Secondly, if approached as a business, then one has to recognise when changes need to be made in order to make more of a profit. You don't need to cut off an artistic vision in order to do so. (And actually, I have found artists who were willing to shortchange *saftey* for the sake of artistic vision. So some artists need to get their heads out of their asses and recognise that safety is more important and that when you're criticised as being unsafe, you don't get all huffy and respond as if the other person has just called you nasty names)

An artist actually *needs* to learn detachment: if you are being commissioned, yes you fight your point of view if there is a legitimate method that is better, but at the end of the day the other person is paying you to make something to their specifications. If there is something that is physically impossible to do (and I've found most non-artists request things that are physically impossible) then fight for that: everything else is up for grabs.

You need to learn to let go on subjective issues. If a gallery lies open with no visitors, they don't shrug their shoulders and say "the public just doesn't get our style". No, they go out, collect marketing info, and changes what needs to be changed. Otherwise they go out of business.

See Chris' point about buying paint too: you have to be able to take criticism when say, you've made a mistake or you're doing something wrong. Knowing how to, for instance, properly calculate electrical input/output is an important part of some artistic endeavours. Not everything in art is subjective and there's a lot that requires a modicum of technical/mathematical training where you actually can be right/wrong in a binary way. If you plug in an electrical device and I say that will overload a circuit, will you as an artist get huffy about "subjective criticism" - I think not. And yet, some artists actually do that and genuinely believe it hampers their artistic vision if you criticise them in *any* way.

An artist needs to be flexible otherwise they get nowhere with their work. Hobbyists have a far greater chance at producing art that doesn't require any improvement or feedback from their audiences. But there you hit on another issue: if art is about capturing your attention, and you don't capture it, what's the point of making the art? You may as well just hang up the painting in your own house because no one else will care about it.

Thirdly, there is a great unwillingness on the part of the artists I know to not openly criticise someone else's work. This is partly due to the fact that we get enough criticism from "outsiders" that supporting one another is helpful; at the same time it allows and fosters a growing number of crappy artworks that hinder any ability to get traction amongst the general public as an artform worth paying attention to. I know a number of people who will refuse to recommend certain companies to the general public because they produce crap: but won't call these same companies out amongst their peers. Does it help improve the artform if we hide our mistakes? Or does admitting those companies produce crap force them to try harder and create greater innovation in the long run?

Also just as with science, there is a way to offer criticism and a way to deal with it. I've written many arts reviews, and I always criticise the manner in which the art is presented (ie. the techniques used) and offer suggestions for improvement: insulting an artist simply because I don't happen to like that particular style is not something I do. I point out the good and the bad, and discuss *why* they were good/bad. And when I subjectively don't like the ideas or the presentation, I say so and admit that other people may like what I don't. Some people will agree with me, some won't. But I only ever pick on the technique and not the ideas.

For every review I've ever written, artists have thanked me for my honesty, my willingness to point out the faults, and appreciate that I'm not panning *them* but rather their methodology. If I can't hear an actor speak, that's not insulting *them* but suggesting they need to improve their diction or that they needed microphones. Is it subjective? Perhaps. But if I hear other audience members mention the same issue, then I'm betting that no one's going to consider it an aesthetic comment but rather a methodological one. (And again, you'd be surprised at how tetchy people can be about commenting on technical issues)

A scientist can likewise be personally attached to an idea, but if their methods can be improved, they get called on it. Nobody bats an eyelid. It's expected. If I however, commented that an artwork in a gallery has been badly painted, I'm seen as unsupportive or worse "unappreciative" or it's "not my thing". (It's the arts world version of the different ways of knowing fallacy) Why can't we admit that some art is just badly done?

I agree that there's not *much* crossover, but I personally am sick of walking out of a gallery or theatre or whatever and holding my tongue because god forbid I offend someone that I didn't like what I saw. Scientists fully understand that as soon as they publish their work it will be ripped to shreds. I find that incredibly brave and takes far more guts than I have ever seen from most artists when it comes to pushing out their stuff, and certainly far more than I have ever put into my own work. Artists take the risk of putting their ideas out there... but won't follow through when it comes to braving critique.

As a last point: most artists I know are heavily into astrology, alt med and other woo-based ideas. If they were more accepting of criticism in their work, then convincing them to be more critical of other things that affect their health might be easier.

Personally I'm at a crossroads where the wankery of the art world has me fed up. As you can tell ;)

A different take on the article:

http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/2012/07/elite-delusions-times-sets-its-…

Math requires clear thinking and concentration - why would we want to train people to have such skills? I'm saying that even if you never use it, that part of your mind needs exercise when you are young. I will help you to not become a fool.
As for math teaching, in high school I find it sucks, and I think one of the problems (unlike other commenters) is that teacher actually doesn't get it. The other is that it is faith-based math teaching (do you believe pi is irrational? Why?) and that is anti-math!
I think there are allot of math/science folks out there who might want to switch and teach math, but the cost of switching to the teaching field is too high at the start. They essentially have closed the shop. You need teaching credentials (teaching statistics to graduate students doesn't count). How good you are at math is less important. This is also true of science classes, where what teacher actually says about subjects like natural selection would sometimes put biologists in great pain. Why not get some people in there who actually were excited about science and math. I'll point out that if Ed Witten offered to teach math or science at high schools near me, he would be rejected as unqualified.

Now reading Shakespeare and Goethe and Mark Twain - who ever uses that? (I'm joking - it is also essential.)

Ken:

Story problems not so much, but that’s a separate issue.

So you have never painted a room in your house, estimated the length of time and how much it will cost to drive to another town, borrowed money to buy a house or car, or even put money into an account with periodic compounding of interest? Wow, how did you miss all of that.

flip, I know a young lady who is going to be graduating later this year with a BFA (Bachelor of Fine Arts) in Art (ceramic sculpture), and a BS (Bachelor of Science) in Math.

I wish I knew of her exhibition earlier. I think I am going to keep a look out for her work in the future.

Wow, did someone say "soft bigotry of low expectations?" Looks like that bigotry is not so soft anymore...

I’m one who understands the importance of science.

But you don't seem to understand the importance of math within science? That alone proves you're not qualified to speak about this issue.

But, all the time I spent struggling with quadratic equations and polynomials actually turned me off science and math at a young age, so much so that there was no chance of me being a scientist.

Just because you got turned off a subject doesnh't mean that subject is useless. I got turned off police work, but that doesn't mean we don't need trained cops. Your personal peeves and past grudges have no more place in this debate than mine.

Everybody is not going to be a practicing, working scientist, so why must we waste so much time learning skills we’ll never use? The time would be better spent teaching us critical thinking skills so that we could be better voters and citizens in general.

This isn't just uncaring bigotry, it's SELF-FULFILLING bigotry. IF you don't learn algebra, you won't get a job in any field that requires it, so you'll never use it, so why should you learn it?

Even, I strongly suggest you and your friend Hacker go dumb down someone else's kids. The Iranian mullahs might like your educational philosophy, butr we decent Americans have no use for it.

I'd say the most important thing secondary (high) school mathematics teaches is the careful application of thorough, step-by-step, "show your working" reasoning, as I believe someone upthread suggested (if not as explicitly).

That is, in my opinion, a crucial part of good critical thinking, and as a matter of course a very useful skill in "real-life everyday" work.

Boy, am I ever glad I didn't go to school in the system Orac proposes, because I never would have gotten out of high school. I flunked out of grade 10 advanced math with 28% (bad teaching, general inaptitude), and moved back to the general, took it as long as I had to (completed grade 11) and then quit. Went on to get a bachelor's degree in English with a minor in modern languages, and then a Master's in Language and Professional Writing at Canada's answer to MIT. I would have been completely shut out of higher education if algebra and calculus were mandatory, and personally, I think I get along pretty well. I am a technical writer working for a very big IT firm.

Somewhere along the line, I also wound up writing a peer-reviewed course on basic inferential statistics as it applies to occupational safety, and I still couldn't pass a high school algebra course. Figure that one out.

Yes, I'm dyscalculic too. The way it manifests with me is that you can teach me any damn math thing you want, and I'll understand it and be able to use it...as long as I keep doing it. As soon as I stop for more than half an hour (or, squid forbid, sleep)...poof, gone! I literally have proofs I can't interpret (now) written in my own handwriting to demonstrate it, too. It's like it loads into RAM but then never writes to the hard drive.

Frankly, if I were going to teach survival-skills math, I'd teach probability, estimation, and basic money management, in roughly that order. Being able to run a mushy Fermi-numbers calculation can get you pretty far, even if your brain interprets math generally as radio static.

I don't know if I had a good algebra teacher in high school. I coasted through Alg 1 and similarly half-assesed the start of Alg 2. It was after getting a mediocre score on m first Alg 2 exam that I realized that, you know, if I actually paid half-attention and gave any effort at all, this stuff was trivially easy, so that's what I did. Ended up with an A+ thee rest of theway.

Probably says more about me than the teacher.

As for story problems, not only are these not irrelevent, there are pretty much what math is all about! I liken it to sports events. The rote problems you see in books are like the drills you do in basketball practice. It teaches you things like proper technique and form. But story problems are like the game. You have to be able to apply the skills you practice, but it isn't just doing the problems.

People who only can solve the equations but not set up and solve story problems are like basketball players who can only do practice drills and are unable to perform in game situations.
Lastly, I still contend that the problem with algebra is not high school or college, but starts with poor math prep in elementary years

I struggled quite a bit with algebra and ended up not being truly happy with math again until Calculus I (which I absolutely adored).

Not letting me post my comment on here - says I am duplicating what I already said, and I don't see any comments for me on this post???

Hacker is correct. Let the kids who have a predisposition for math and science take algebra and spare the millions of children who will never use it. If at some time they change their minds they can catch up. It is far easier for a motivated student to learn something than one who has no interest in the subject. When the student is ready the master shall appear.

Let the kids who have a predisposition for math and science take algebra and spare the millions of children who will never use it.

Offal, I've seen you argue here many times for the right of parents to evaluate the evidence regarding vaccines and make decisions for themselves.

How would parents be able to understand and evaluate statistical evidence at all if they didn't understand algebra?

MMMindy

Lastly, I still contend that the problem with algebra is not high school or college, but starts with poor math prep in elementary years

Exactly!

We cannot wait until high school and then expect to be able to fix the problem.

Back when the Canadian dollar was worth $0.75 American someone wrote an angry letter complaining about how the bank was gouging him by charging a $1.34 Cdn for a US $. He thought they were making 9 cents per dollar on the transaction instead of 0.7 cents. Merchants were able to get away with taking US dollars at $1.25 Cdn instead of a reasonable exchange rate of $1.33 less a little bit.

How would parents be able to understand and evaluate statistical evidence at all if they didn’t understand algebra?

"When the student is ready the master shall [sic] appear," see?

I’m one who understands the importance of science. But, all the time I spent struggling with quadratic equations and polynomials actually turned me off science and math at a young age, so much so that there was no chance of me being a scientist.

Here is someone whose promising career as a science was cruelly cut short by attempts to teach him sciency stuff.
In an alternative universe, he was not exposed to equations and stuff at a vulnerable age... so again, there was no chance of him being a scientist.

To everyone:

Woa, apologies for my little rant. Chalk it down to it being late and needing a little timeout - really should put a keyboard lock on my computer to prevent things like that :)

Also, thanks for teaching me about a new word: dyscalculia. Looking it up on Wikipedia makes me think I might have some issues with it myself.

@Chris

I wish I had graduated with both sciences and arts. I'd be much happier for it.

@Adam

How would parents be able to understand and evaluate statistical evidence at all if they didn’t understand algebra?

Give me an example of statistical evidence related to the vaccination decision that requires an understanding of algebra.

@ flip:

Oh, I was just about to implore you to rant on..

I am one of those rarities who studied both arts and sciences...I arrived at a large university at a young age and didn't know what I wanted to do; I was able to study in various locales and acquire a few degrees. I was considered to have talent as an artist at a young age ( producing work for money) and also did very well in mathematics and writing. So I acquired a liberal arts baccalaureate with many courses in life and social science. The grad stuff is in economics with degrees in psychology.

I think that you can learn accounting and budgets through the net although I don't know the best resources. When I say I studied economics, it was all theoretical and the nuts and bolts business-y stuff I figured out on my own for investing etc.

Unfortunately, many people in the arts look askance at practicalities as though it tarnishes their vision.. it just makes life easier. My cousin with the 'glamourous life' thinks that I- and adman cousin B- have the glamourous lives. Nothing could be further from the truth- altho' we look the part.

Anyway,hang in there.. anything worth doing takes time, effort and dedication. And the art world is filled with wankers as is the business world, the scientific world et al.

Give me an example of statistical evidence related to the vaccination decision that requires an understanding of algebra.

Knowing what a variable is seems like it might help.

Mr. Schecter:

Give me an example of statistical evidence related to the vaccination decision that requires an understanding of algebra.

Here you go. Knock yourself out, there are over nine thousand papers that are free to download and read.

As I recall there are several comments on this blog where you exhibit your lack of math skills. They are very amusing.

Your inability to answer my exceedingly simple question directly proves my point.

@ Sid:

I do believe that what Chris and Narad mean is that statistical analyses of data- like that in research on vaccines- is based in algebra. If you don't get algebra, how can you understand these analyses?

Give me an example of statistical evidence related to the vaccination decision that requires an understanding of algebra.

Oh, I was hoping you would go down this route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidence_(epidemiology)

How is it possible to understand incidence rates without understanding basic algebra?

Sid, are you really going to argue that either
(a) understanding incidence rates is not important to the vaccine decision or
(b) you do not need to understand basic algebra to understand how incidence rates are calculated?

Your inability to answer my exceedingly simple question directly proves my point.

What, precisely, do you think "algebra" comprises, Bob?

Adam, more generalities? Narad, I took algebra in high school and help my daughter through it, so yes I know what algebra is. Again, any specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination. And even if you can provide one it does not prove one needs study the subject for a year or two when in their teens. People can learn at any age and as I said, should a topic become relevant one's ability to understand it will increase along with the motivation to understand

And incidence and prevalence is a rather simple concept

incidence and prevalence is a rather simple concept

Perhaps it wouldn't be so simple if you hadn't taken algebra in high school and help your daughter through it.

Again, any specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination

From the wiki linked above:

The incidence rate is the number of new cases per population in a given time period. When the denominator is the sum of the person-time of the at risk population, it is also known as the incidence density rate or person-time incidence rate.

That is a specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination.

Again, any specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination.

Jesus Christ. Look at the basic discrete SIR equations. What do you think R⁰ is?

^ Should have been a sub zero.

Maths is hard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infectious_disea…

Here Offal...Knock your self out:

Try looking up mean, median, mode and range. Then try looking up the p value for some of those *great* studies you are fond of linking to:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7885761/Basic-Statistics-and-Epidemiology-a-P…

@Denice

:) Thanks - glad someone didn't mind!

Accounting and budgets I'm getting better at. A recent debacle using an accountant left me doing my own taxes for the first time, and fortunately it forced me to be far more detailed about how I keep my books than I normally would. (Because of course they did all the work for me previously) It made me immensely happy to figure out what is usually a very daunting task.

I can understand the issue with artists not dealing with practicalities. In my particular case, uni prepared us for everything *but* business techniques. We spent a modicum of time (no more than 10 hours all up probably) on budgets, but it mostly focused on how to write one up and not on keeping the books once the money is spent. Likewise with marketing, it focused on press releases and getting attention: but not with taking the temperature of your target audience and making improvements where necessary. I find that we're usually taught how to create the art, but not what to do once it's out there.

The biggest and best thing that happened to me was in learning website marketing practices. This forced me to see how people approach your marketing and how by changing what you do slightly, you can still get your audience interested: without ever actually changing the nature of the business. This in turn made me see how art needs to be approached as just another business, and that artistic vision can be the same but the methods by which you present it can be improved. In fact, treating it in this "cold, hard" manner has made me make many many improvements that I wouldn't have otherwise; both in an artistic sense and in a viable-business sense.

I think it's not an outright unwillingness or ignorance (I was never naive enough to think it would be easy or that I had some rare talent). The people who were pros, and acted like it, usually understood criticism and were willing to compromise. The people who were pros or amateurs, and acted like the latter, were always the ones to take offense. However, there is always the pervavise unwillingness to take the criticism into a public sphere. That I take issue with.

And the art world is filled with wankers as is the business world, the scientific world et al.

Too right. I've just finished reading Brian Deer's addendum to his anti-SLAPP case and remembered just how bad some "scientists" can be.

I was taught that each of the levels of Math built upon knowledge gained in the previous class - Algebra to Geometry, to Algebra 2, to Trig, to Calculus to Calculus 2....if you didn't get the basic concepts, you'd be lost down the line - which is why so much emphasis was placed on the beginning.

Seems that our foreign economic competitors realized a long time ago the importance of a science & math-based education....and we used to...a shame really.

Some idiot called Sid Offit: "Your inability to answer my exceedingly simple question directly proves my point."

He answered very directly. If you don't know what a variable is, you've sod all chance of understanding anything in statistics.

Were you born this stupid, or have you been practising intensively?

@David

Offal is that stupid. He keeps it his stupidity in tip-top shape by making asinine statements like the ones he's posted here.

Sid,

Here's where algebra comes in. Given the known number of cases of vaccine preventable infectious diseases in the years immediately before the introduction of their vaccines, the rates of moderate to severe complications experienced with those diseases, and the cost and side effects of medical treatment for the diseases, calculate the odds that in the absence of vaccines one or more of your children would:
- catch one or more of these diseases at some point in his/her lifetime
- suffer a serious complication from either the disease or treatment

For extra credit, calculate the expected additional cost of medical care for your family. Extrapolate this to the population of your home country.

Bonus question: Assume vaccination rates of 50%, 70%, and 80% of the general population. How does this affect your answers above.

People can learn at any age...

If they don't learn certain basic things at a young age, they'll have much less opportunity to learn more complex stuff at ANY age. And yes, algebra is BASIC; and there's huge amounts of other concepts and skills that are based on algebra, and that can't be learned until one learns algebra.

Offal's comments here show once again both how willfully stupid he is, and how totally uncaring he is when it comes to the most basic legitimate interests of other people. Why is this little guttersnipe still tolerated here, when all he does is piss on the carpet? Seriously, Orac, you can find smarter dissenters than this, even within the antivax crowd. There's no need to let the homeless loonies wander in just to privide extra "entertainment" for us.

I do have to agree with Sid that indeed many children will never use algebra. I would not consider this is a justification for letting kids skip the subject, though, but rather a tragic symptom of the low standards we have in our culture.

A girl growing up in a conservative part of Afghanistan will likely never learn to read. Some would argue this means she doesn't need to go to school. Would you argue this, Sid? Of course not. Illiteracy is a huge barrier to her self-determination, and part of how she will be bound to her male guardians throughout her life.

Knowledge is not a burden. It is an asset. Children who understand algebra will be much better equipped with far more options ahead of them; they will be able to work out when someone is defrauding them, for instance. They'll be able to work out gas mileage, and they will be much better equipped to run the family budget in adulthood. They will have the tools to begin understanding statistics, which will certainly serve them well should their friends suggest going to the casino together, and to help understand scientific research that can help them guide their own medical decisions. (You are an advocate for people doing their own research and not just listening to the doctor, aren't you? That's a good thing; we've got the Internet and PubMed; people should use it. But they'll need basic algebra.)

If millions of adults grow up to forget algebra, that is a sign that something is wrong with how we teach the subject and how we as a society value knowledge. Not a sign that algebra is useless to them. The only way it can be useless is if it isn't understood.

To touch on Calli's comment, algebra helps adults function in a modern, technologically developed society with complex problems. Without it (and without the maths that follow from it), they are increasingly at the mercy of unscrupulous hucksters (like, say, Mercola) or political demagogues (such as, say, the forces behind the US Tea Party).

Knowing algebra (along with other basic maths & science concepts) helps individuals and communities retain liberty. Neglecting it is a path to intellectual and economic impoverishment and political disenfranchisement.

@Composer99: Bravo.

" If a student arrives in college without a basic understanding of algebra, as far as I’m concerned that student is not ready for" high school...
FTFY

At the risk of being a little redundant, I would point out that the core issue is not whether math is valuable or not. It is whether there are some students who just cannot do it no matter how hard they try. The argument that children should not have to give it a try is silly. Math should be a part of every kid's early training. But for those who do give it a try and cannot succeed, we ought to think about letting them get some kind of diploma based on some serious work.

By the way, I tend to disagree that teaching statistics in lieu of algebra and/or precalculus is a good thing. I do understand that statistics is a part of epidemiology, and in the case of complicated diseases that exist in highly variable genetic backgrounds (like cancer for existence), statistics become a central element in any kind of hypothesis testing.

But when it comes to understanding cell biology and biochemistry, I think it is safe to argue that chemical kinetics, equilibrium theory, and just plain organic chemistry are the more critical paths to knowledge. The analysis of pathways (defined by a series of gene products and reaction products that lead from one to the other) is a core part of cancer research at the moment. And disciplines like chemical kinetics are a subset of calculus -- differential equations for rates and integrals for accumulations of substances, either toxic or protective. And of course thermodynamics uses a lot of algebra and some calculus. Organic chemistry is full of trigonometry and takes in a whole world of math involving handedness of three dimensional structures.

Perhaps I've gone on a bit here, but there is another point to be made regarding what this blog refers to as woo, and the people who promote it. I would argue that having even a basic handle on modern biology involves taking all those math classes along with basic and organic chemistry, thermodynamics, biochemistry, and cell biology. It's not a knowledge base you pick up by googling for nutritional supplement remedies, nor is it something you will pick up by reading anti-vaccination propaganda. And of course actually knowing something about the theory and practice of medicine is another world entirely.

I think we should be able to distinguish between legitimate arguments based on real quandaries (like what to do about the kids who drop out of high school due to lack of math talent, but are doing reasonably well in everything else) vs the arguments that are tossed up here by intellectually dishonest people who just want to keep flogging long-discredited arguments. One group is suffering and is worthy of our consideration; the other is just a group of trolls.

@Calli Arcale

Knowledge is not a burden. It is an asset.

This - The difference between the curios and the incurious. The incurious inevitably become the ignorant. In the case of Sid, they become the proudly ignorant.

they will be able to work out when someone is defrauding them, for instance.

I gave the example of the American tourists who thought the that a merchant valuing their US$ at $1.25 Cdn when the Canadian $ was only worth $0.75 US was giving them a good deal when they could have received $1.32 - $1.33 Cdn by exchanging their money at the bank.

@Composer99

Knowing algebra (along with other basic maths & science concepts) helps individuals and communities retain liberty.

But, but ,but this liberty could come at the expense of the liberty of corporations and wealthy people to trash the environment and screw everyone over. Some rich wanker might not be able to afford the ceramic brake option for his Porsche and that would be a very bad thing indeed.

Bob G:

At the risk of being a little redundant, I would point out that the core issue is not whether math is valuable or not. It is whether there are some students who just cannot do it no matter how hard they try. The argument that children should not have to give it a try is silly. Math should be a part of every kid’s early training. But for those who do give it a try and cannot succeed, we ought to think about letting them get some kind of diploma based on some serious work.

I dunno; in my opinion, if a child is intellectually incapable of learning algebra (and I don't mean linear algebra here, I mean the really basic stuff that our high schools call algebra), that's a sign of a major learning disability. Perhaps those with such severe disability should be able to earn a diploma, but I have mixed feelings about that. And I say that as a parent of a learning-disabled child. What, exactly, is the diploma supposed to mean? If you graduate high school without algebra, you are innumerate; it would be like graduating high school with a third-grade reading level. Now, it's nice for everybody to graduate, but how low can our standards go before they become meaningless?

A person who cannot grasp algebra or who is functionally illiterate can certainly become gainfully employed later in life (though I would hope they have someone looking after them), and they are valuable and important people. But can they be described as completing the standards of our education if they haven't? Perhaps you could have a secondary diploma program for these people, but their disabilities tend to be so particular and personal that I'm not sure that would make sense either, and it might feel like sort of a consolation prize for not achieving the "real" diploma.

I have a relative who is mentally disabled; he managed to get a diploma despite it. Math was a very big struggle for him; he barely eeked by. But eek by he did, and he is justifiably proud of having done so. I think if someone is showing a lack of aptitude for algebra, they shouldn't be given a free pass; they should be given additional instruction and support, since this would be a sign of academic need. Don't give up on them and don't let them give up on themselves either. ;-) In the long run, it will be worth it.

I agree with Calli. If someone is incapable of learning algebra (not simply unwilling to put in the effort) then we shouldn't pretend that they have actually completed a basic education anyway.

Incidentally, right now I believe you actually *can* graduate without a meaningful understanding of algebra. I believe you can get Fs in math and still graduate, as long as you do well enough in other courses to compensate in your overall GPA*. So the right question maybe isn't "should we devise a way for these people to graduate" since the answer is "no, we've already got one."

*I had a good enough GPA to graduate college despite flunking a class. Of course, it also helped that I went fuming up to the dean to demand to know why I was even registered with that class, as I had dropped it before the semester even started because of a time conflict with another class. Stupid bureaucracy....

I really did like to hear that our Canadian students had such perseverence--I'll pass it on to the teachers of my aquaintance. But, I'm sure they already know this.

I am impressed with Dr. Hacker. He really has "gone emeritus" as the saying goes.

I have the feeling that much of the problem is not at the level of teaching algebra but long before it, in elementary schools. My impression here in Ontario is that a lot of elementary school teachers are really not that confident in how they handle math themselves and thus may a) convey a sense of their own dislike or discomfort with math and b) have a problem teaching what they may not really understand themselve. I remember, as a Gr 11 student, doing my mother's math homework before she went off to teach it the next day :) Well it was "New Math".

Thus by the time a student is in Gr. 7 or 8 (roughly 12-14 years of age for non-North Americans) they may already have some math anxiety and, quite possibly, a poor grounding in the very basics of math and arithemetic.

Also as someone said a long time ago (Snow?) there is no shame in being innumerate. Lots of people will admit to being innumerate who would be mortified to have to admit to being illiterate so there is little or no social downside for not being good at math.

Somewhat in disagreement with Bob G. I am not so sure that there is as much innate "math" ability as people may think: It easily could be bad teaching and little encouragement,--See remarks on social costs above.

There is an interesting program out of Toronto called JUMP

JUMP Math is dedicated to enhancing the potential in children by encouraging an understanding and a love of math in students and educators. JUMP Math replaces the self-fulfilling myth that some people are born with mathematical ability while others do not have the ability to succeed with assumptions that all children can be led to think mathematically.

from http://ckc.tcf.ca/org/jump-math

It was started by an actor/writer/mathamatician, John Mighton more or less by accident as a tutoring approach to complement standard school teaching--Mighton's story of how that happened is in his first book and it is funny. It seems to be moving into Canadian and US schools now though from what I read on the JUMP site this is more that teachers are finding it works better than the tools they have. . It seems to teach in all the wrong ways such as encouraging Gr. 3 students to count on their fingers! I don't know if any North American school boards have officially adopted it.

Mighton,BTW, is not exactly a light weight or likely to be a quack.

The JUMP Math numeracy program was started in 1998 by mathematician and playwright, Dr. John Mighton, an Adjunct Professor in Mathematics at the University of Toronto, Order of Canada, an Ashoka International Fellow, winner of two Governor-General's Awards for Drama and the prestigious Siminovitch prize.

I think the academic research evidence that I have seen for the program is still a bit weak, possibly due to a lack of funding to research outcomes but the one or two evaluations that I have read look favourable.

@ Autistic Lurker
Have a look at the Khan Academy -- it may have some of the things you want. www.khanacademy.org/

@ Brian
If your children are fairly young you might want to have a look at JUMP as a parental resource. No reason you or someone else could not use it to help increase knowledge and liking for math. I think there are still free sample materials available on the JUMP site and a single package of materials looks pretty inexpensive for a quick try-out.

Oh and if the USA wants to give up teaching algebra, feel free, we need the boost to our exports. And I'm sure Japan,Finland etc agree. Sheeh

Calli Arcale @10:08 am 2 August 2012
Very well said!

I have the feeling that much of the problem is not at the level of teaching algebra but long before it, in elementary schools. My impression here in Ontario is that a lot of elementary school teachers are really not that confident in how they handle math themselves and thus may a) convey a sense of their own dislike or discomfort with math and b) have a problem teaching what they may not really understand themselve.

Anecdote coming up, but pertains to the thought: I attended a university with a national reputation in the area of education, and, particularly, elementary ed. Consequently, a large number of the students, particularly females, are el ed majors.

So if I, as a male science major, was chatting with random female students at parties or in the dorm, with stimulating small talk like, "What's your major?", I would meet a lot of el ed majors (either that, or what I called "I Don't Know Business" majors - "What's your major?" "I don't know...business" Guys were just as likely to be I Don't Know Business majors, though; el ed majors were predominantly (>90%) female)

So I learn they are el ed, and I tell them that I am a chemistry major. The most common response was, "Ew. Math and me never got along." Grammar either, apparently, but oh well.

But even then, all I could think was, wait a minute! You are supposed to be teaching our kids. How do you expect to be able to teach math effectively if you have such disdain for it, so much that you boast of it? The standard response from the education people is, "I am teaching children, not math" but that is meaningless platitude. You are supposed to be teaching children lots of stuff, including mathematics, and prepare them for things they will need to learn as they grow, so don't give me this "It's not my job" crap.

I said the same thing early on in this thread, that the problem is not algebra, it is math teaching in elementary, and this is why I came to that conclusion in the first place. I have met too many el ed majors in my life who are math phobes. How in the blazes can we expect our young people to get a good preparation in a subject when the teachers openly admit they hate it? It's like expecting me to teach electrochemistry. I guarantee you, I'm not going to do a good job at it. Not just because I don't know it sufficiently to teach it, but because I detest it so much that I have no interest in talking about it for whatever amount of time I need to.

I'm a classics major myself, studying ancient Rome and Greece. I think at least some algebra is very important. It teaches symbolic thought and how to find things which, though different, are functionally equivalent.

Mind, I think learning Latin and Greek would be highly beneficial as well, but I don't hold out much hope of that happening. I have found the experience incredibly enriching, and it has done a great deal to improve my grammar.

I think that people need both art and science. They fill different niches, if one is left out, you get a lopsided human.

David Ed., C. P. S. E, you moron. Should you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I shall be quite astonished.

And David, if I had a bullshit degree such as a masters in
education, I certainly would not go around advertising it

Some idiot didn't just write he/ she uses algebra to figure out gas money right?

@sid

Yawn, still hitting way below the Mendoza line in terms of intelligence and witty repartee, eh?

@sid - wow, don't like to be pointed out how wrong you are? No even one iota of information or retort other than pedantic insults? I'm so disappointed.

I have to wonder if that was the real Sid.

I note that the name doesn't have initial caps, and don't recall seeing that in the past. I'd also expect Sid to come up with something like "C P S E F G H I J K" iif he was going to make some of someone's degree (like he has room to talk), because such things are his style.

But the biggest thing that makes me wonder is that, while I have seen Sid hang around after he has been made to look like the idiot he is, I have never seen anybody so completely and totally spanked has Sid has been in this thread even come back to the same forum, much less the same page of that forum.

Of course, I could be wrong. He could just be that stupid *and* drunk.

@ Johnny: I noticed the same differences with what are purported to be Offal's posts. The content, as well, just seems "off' to me. I suspect someone is posting under his 'nym.

Such things have happened before. I remember when someone was impersonating Little Augie; the impostor's posts were easy to identify with a little experience, as they were significantly less vile than the genuine article.

I would urge anyone, however, who thinks that impersonating even vile and stupid commenters is a positive or justified action, to PLEASE STOP. We have facts and logic on our side; we don't need to stoop to depriving even idiots of their voices.

Johnny, you should seek help for your delusions. And "Wishing you were on Mars" isn't a location.

@ Offal: Are you confirming that you are the real sid offit...?

Either something has happened to Mr. Schecter, or this is an imposter.

I have to wonder if that was the real Sid.

I dunno, "Should you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I shall be quite astonished" sounds like precisely the sort of mishmash he'd produce if he were trying to simultaneously try to get the use of 'shall' and the subjunctive correct.

Chris, it's really me. Capitalization failure was due to my using an iPad.

(I'll also note Eric Partridge on the general subject: "Conditional clauses have always caused trouble to the semi-educated and the demi-reflective; to the illiterate they give no trouble at all.")

That's disappointing Sid, I had hoped you would add something at least somewhat constructive, but instead we get nothing but childish insults. You certainly are slipping.

Hey, look, Sid's back!

Care to respond to my earlier comments?

Specifically, how do you expect parents to properly evaluate scientific evidence to make an informed vaccine decision if they do not understand algebra?

Adam, give me an example of how I would use algebra when deciding to get a flu shot this month. I'm sure you'll be getting one. Which equation did you apply to which question to make that decision?

Sid, I've already done that in my comments above.
When getting a flu shot, one might want to consider the local flu incidence. an understanding of basic high-school algebra is necessary to understand how incidence is calculated.

Again, I ask if you are really arguing either that:
(a) understanding incidence rates is not important to the vaccine decision or
(b) you do not need to understand basic algebra to understand how incidence rates are calculated?

As a reminder, you asked very clearly for

any specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination.

To which I responded with wiki's definition of incidence:

The incidence rate is the number of new cases per population in a given time period. When the denominator is the sum of the person-time of the at risk population, it is also known as the incidence density rate or person-time incidence rate.

Do you agree or disagree that this is a specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination?

Mr. Schecter:

Adam, give me an example of how I would use algebra when deciding to get a flu shot this month.

Here you go. Knock yourself out.

You're not answering my question. Let's assume incidence is important. So, what is the incidence of flu where you live now? What is it expected to be this flu season. How does that factor into your decision? How reliable are the predictions.? Would you get the vaccine even if you could not answer any of these questions?

C'mon, Sid, do it in your attempted British accent.

Sid, you're being obtuse. I doubt you are arguing in good faith.

I'll give you a personal example though, because why not. I live in Seattle. Recently it came to my attention that I am up for a Tdap booster. I don't love getting shots, especially ones that make your arm sore like I know the Tdap can. However, I did some research and found the following report on WA's Department of Health site (pdf link):

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/348-254-PertussisUpdate…

I looked over the data extensively. There are at minimum 5 pieces of data in that document that require a basic understanding of algebra to understand properly. This includes the graph of pertussis incidence on the last page. After reading this document, I went and got my Tdap the next day.

So that brings us back to you, Sid. I have 2 questions. Is the information in this document valuable to parents making a decision regarding pertussis vaccination, whatever that decision may be? Is an understanding of basic algebra necessary to understand the facts presented in this document?

LOL - Sid, you asked a question, got the answer, didn't like it, so now you're going into spin mode....again, very disappointing.

Again, sid batting way below the Mendoza line in terms of intelligent thought, which is utterly not surprising.

I shall read it and respond, Adam.

I think Sid is stymied by the fact that Algebra is a lot more prevalent than he realized, hence the back-sliding and "read between the lines - WHY DO I NEED MATH, BIG GUVMENT BAD!!!!"

I shall read it and respond, Adam.

I've got 50 quatloos sayin' this fresh error wasn't intended as irony.

I'm in California and we had a similar outbreak here in 2010. All the incidence data tells us is if we're at an elevated risk at a certain point in time. If I were worried about pertussis I'd get the shot regardless of what the data said because the shot would last over a time frame featuring varying incidence rates. But since pertussis is generally mild in adults, I'll take my chance with the illness while at the same time building a more long lasting immunity. As to algebra, I don't know how deeply one must delve into it to understand that an outbreak is on going and that rates per 100,000 are elevated.

If I'm missing something walk me through your process and tell me which equation and which figures you used that provided more insight.

@sid - actually, you asked for what algebraic equation would relate to vaccines. You got your answer, several in fact, showing where a knowledge of algebra is necessary to understand the information - so your comment above is off-track and not related to your original question.

Mr. Schecter:

But since pertussis is generally mild in adults, I’ll take my chance with the illness while at the same time building a more long lasting immunity.

So you are cool with both coughing your lungs out for three months, and the possibility of passing it on to an infant. And you actually think you'll get long lasting immunity? Good luck with that, because as a bacterial infection the immunity can disappear in just four years:

Duration of immunity against pertussis after natural infection or vaccination.
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2005 May;24(5 Suppl):S58-61.

Also, remember, if you survive tetanus or diphtheria, there is absolutely no immunity. Just like if you get a strep infection. Bacteria just happen to have a nasty habit of being able to not give long immunity. It seems to have something to do with being much more complicated that viruses.

And yes, tetanus is fairly rare, but it does exist in the environment. And it may not be long before your anti-vax friends brings back diphtheria.

All the incidence data tells us is if we’re at an elevated risk at a certain point in time. If I were worried about pertussis I’d get the shot regardless of what the data said because the shot would last over a time frame featuring varying incidence rates.

What denotation wouldst thou give to this "time" that you speak of, Sid, that another might be measureth against it?

("Ye"?)

All the incidence data tells us is if we’re at an elevated risk at a certain point in time.

Sid, how can you draw this conclusion without an understanding of algebra? I think your disagreement stems from a misunderstanding of what algebra is. How would you define a 'basic understanding of algebra'?

Here's another example, this time from VaxTruth (yes, I know, but it's illustrative here). This is from the VaxTruth page titled "The Flu Vaccine–What Your Doctor Won’t Tell You (Or Probably Doesn’t Even Know)"

Now we’ll look at how many micrograms of mercury is in a serving of fish, again using tuna as an example. Three oz. of tuna is considered 1 serving, so that means a pregnant woman can safely eat 1 serving of tuna 4 times a week, according to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. If we look at the current amount of mercury in fish (because it changes from year to year), we see that there are approximately 13.32mcg of mercury in 12 ounces of tuna, which equates to 3.33mcg per serving. The amount of mercury in tuna sits between 12-14mcg per 12 ounces every year, and has never been recorded as going over 14mcg.

Is VaxTruth assuming a basic understanding of algebra in its reader, Sid? Would VaxTruth's authors agree that algebraic calculation of metal concentrations is useful for parents to understand?

Is it maybe possible that you took a position in this thread to be contrary, but refuse to admit when you're shown to be incorrect?

Admitting your own error is not a weakness, Sid.

@Narad

...should get kicked in the teeth, I shall not lift a finger.

Correction

@Narad

…should you get kicked in the teeth, I shall not lift a finger.

Again, so disappointing Sid.....

…should you get kicked in the teeth, I shall not lift a finger.

It's just the original error over again, Sid. Not only are you popping from the subjunctive to the indicative, you're getting the subjunctive wrong in the first place.

@Adam
Sid, how can you draw this conclusion without an understanding of algebra?

So simply knowing that an epidemic is ongoing doesn't tell me I'm at an elevated risk? And knowing cases per 100K this year as opposed to a normal year has no meaning? Besides incidence is irrelevant if the illness causes no worry to the person considering a shot.

As to the mercury example, algebra can be useful to some but I've not found it to be relevant. I'm quite comfortable in my rejection of the .

Finally, you still haven't shared your specific though process with us. Did you even have one. Not being able to support your assertions IS a weakness.

@Chris

coughing up my lungs for three months? When does that happen? Give me a link saying that's likely to happen. And the latest pertussis immunity study show 30 year to lifetime protection. Funny how you guys always miss that one

Sid, I'm disappointed that once again you've decided to run away rather than owning up to what you've written here.

How, in the future, can you expect other commenters here to respond to your comments and questions given that you are prone to behaving in such a manner?

Narad, is English your second language?

As to the mercury example, algebra can be useful to some but I’ve not found it to be relevant

This says a lot more about you than it does about algebra. Again, what is your definition of algebra?

Adam, why so difficult to tell us your thought process in detail? It's like pulling teeth with you. How did you specifically use algebra before you got your booster.

@Chris, you are quite wrong about the immunity from diphtheria. See Microbiology for Physiotherapy Students
By B S Nagoba, Basv Raj Nagoba P86 - Available doing a Google book search

@Silly Sid: I had pertussis as an adult. Obviously it didn't kill me, but I certainly could have well done without coughing until I was breathless after speaking 2 words, coughing until I vomited, inability to sleep for months without drinking cough syrup with codeine like it was water, and the mild case of reactive airway disease I've had ever since.

And, since the disease antibodies don't last much longer, if at all longer, than the disease, I'll happily get vaccinated for it as often as possible. You can enjoy pertussis. I would rather not ever have it again.

Narad, is English your second language?

I'm amazed that anyone could try to pick up this affectation and be so incredibly dumb about it. Would you like a version of that sentence that is correct, Sid? Here: "Were you to be kicked in the teeth, I would not lift a finger." Simple. "Should you to be" is wrong in terms of person, Bullethead. Switching to the indicative halfway through is even more wrong. Expressions of resolve and intention are also not simple futurity, so the second invocation of 'shall' is about as bad as the first.

As soon as you provide me with your definition of 'a basic understanding of algebra,' i'd be happy to outline my thought process for you. Otherwise, how would I be able to explain how my thought process fit your definition?

I think we have reached an impasse, Adam. Should you decide to move forward, I shall be quite happy to continue the debate.

It's not an 'impasse'. You asked me

How did you specifically use algebra before you got your booster.

How am I supposed to answer this if i don't know what your definition of algebra is?

I've been very charitable with you. I've answered your questions respectfully and provided links that demonstrate my points. You've done neither of these things. You refuse to even define a term upon which your argument is based. How do you expect to convince anybody of anything if you continue to behave this way?

Sh*tty F*ckwit said:

David Ed., C. P. S. E, you moron. Should you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I shall be quite astonished.
sid offit
12:05 am

and

And David, if I had a bullshit degree such as a masters in
education, I certainly would not go around advertising it

OMFG! :P

Total ad hominem.... why? Because he's too stupid to come up with anything sensible.

Pity that he doesn't get that my M. Ed. is in the psychology of teaching, learning and development, isn't it? And that my undergraduate studies included a substantial mathematical content, which enabled me to do the remedial tutoring I used to do. But then... Sh*tty Offal doesn't get much, does he? I'm glad I'm not him .....

comment in moderation about the anus californicum specimen that keeps farting on here ...

Mr. Schecter:

And the latest pertussis immunity study show 30 year to lifetime protection.

Give me a citation like I gave you. That page did not even mention pertussis, and was not a citation. I will admit to being wrong about diphtheria, but not on strep and tetanus.

And because you are too lazy to look up the citation I gave you, it says: "infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4-20 years."

Here is another citation, and it says "A major challenge for pertussis control is that neither natural infection nor immunization induce life-long immunity against subsequent infection."

Narad, let me help you.

Should you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I shall be quite astonished.

Should = if [condition]

(then)

Shall = will [consequence]

If you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I will be quite astonished.

"@Chris, you are quite wrong about the immunity from diphtheria. See Microbiology for Physiotherapy Students
By B S Nagoba, Basv Raj Nagoba P86 – Available doing a Google book search"
C I think we would rather stick with the CDC Case Surveillance Manual for diphtheria, Offal:

http://www.cdc.gov/Vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt01-dip.html

"Diphtheria remains endemic in many parts of the developing world, including some countries of the Caribbean and Latin America, Eastern Europe, Southeast Asia, and Africa. In the 1990s, a large epidemic of diphtheria occurred in the former Soviet Union where diphtheria had previously been well controlled and this renewed interest in the factors associated with persistent circulation of toxigenic C. diphtheriae.[10,11] During the past decade, many developing countries have achieved high childhood immunization coverage with DTP/DTaP vaccine resulting in significant reduction in diphtheria incidence.[12] However, sporadic cases and outbreaks still occur among population subgroups.[10,12] A feature of these outbreaks is that the majority of cases have occurred among adolescents and adults instead of children. Many of these adolescents and adults had not received routine childhood vaccination or booster doses of diphtheria toxoid. Rarely, outbreaks occur in well-vaccinated populations with intense exposure to toxigenic C. diphtheriae, but disease is usually mild and with fewer complications and no fatalities.[13]"

I don't know. Offal's posts smell suspiciously like those posted by The *SFB* Thingy Troll.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19876392

Our results support a period of natural immunity that is, on average, long-lasting (at least 30 years) but inherently variable.

Can't wait to hear what M. Ed., C. P. S. E. has to say.

Offal's post still smells like the *SFB* Troll's posts.

Narad, let me help you.

Should you ever post an intellegent comment on this blog I shall be quite astonished.

Should = if [condition]

No, Sid. If you want to play at this pretension (which I highly recommend, as it makes you look like an utter buffoon), "should" does not accept the second person.

Mr. Schecter the abstract said " Our results support a period of natural immunity that is, on average, long-lasting (at least 30 years) but inherently variable."

Do you notice the words "variable" and "average." Those are words used in algebra, and I see you do not quite understand what they mean. There was lots of math in that paper, and I sincerely doubt you understood any of it. Not everyone gets the long term natural immunity, it seems that some folks the immunity can disappear quite quickly. Which is noted on that paper in Figure 6, notice where the line on x-axis starts.

As the one paper I cited (and it includes several studies, not just one) says about a particular set of cases: " A prospective cohort study in the Netherlands documented B. pertussis infection clinically and by laboratory techniques in both the first and reinfection episode in 4 children.7 The second episodes of pertussis were milder than first infections and may not have been diagnosed outside of a research setting. This study provided well-documented evidence that the duration of infection-acquired immunity in children may be as short as 3.5 years."

So, yes, that was a small study. So there was another mentioned in the same paragraph: "A study in Senegal of 8419 children documented 2 episodes of confirmed symptomatic pertussis in 137 unvaccinated children (0.02% of 6131 children) and 73 previously vaccinated children (0.03% of 2288 children).16 The mean time between the first and second infections was 7.1 years [95% confidence interval (95% CI), 6.6-7.6)] in the unvaccinated children and 5.1 years (95% CI 4.5-5.7) in the previously vaccinated children."

“should” does not accept the second person

Really

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/should
used after 'if' or instead of 'if' for describing a situation that may possibly happen
Should you need help, do not hesitate to call me.

AdamG,
I wonder if it was poor algebra skills that led to VaxTruth writing:

The amount of mercury in tuna sits between 12-14mcg per 12 ounces every year, and has never been recorded as going over 14mcg.

Of course I feel compelled to give the true figures. According to the FDA the mean amount of methylmercury found in light canned tuna between 1990 and 2010 was 12.8 micrograms per 100 grams (approximately 4 ounces) and the maximum recorded was 88.9 micrograms per 100 grams.

For the mathematically minded, the table in the link I provide gives parts per million, which is the same as milligrams per kilogram, or micrograms per gram, 0.128 ppm is the same as 12.8 µg/100g, 0.889 ppm is the same as 88.9 µg/100g, and an ounce is 28 grams.

So according to my calculations (assuming I haven't made an error) the average amount of methylmercury in light tuna was 43 micrograms per 12 ounces, with a maximum of 299 micrograms per 12 ounces. VaxTruth are, not surprisingly, way off.

Yet again, Sid runs away from owning up to his actions. I'll continue to play, though, Sid, because I enjoy batting you around and because this thread is an excellent example of your debate non-tactics.

Since you can't provide a single definition of algebra, I'll help you out. Each state has its own requirements for Algebra I competency, but let's just consider my home state of Washington's (pdf link):

http://www.bsd405.org/portals/0/curriculum/MSPMath/one%20page%20quick%2…

When making my decision regarding the Tdap booster, I used the following concepts:

A1E Exponential functions

A3:Function Characteristics
A3A Relations, functions, domain, range, roots, inde/dependent variables.
A3B Representations: symbolic, graph, table, words, connections between

A6: Data and Distributions
A6A Use summary statistics, compare data sets
A6B Make valid inferences based on data

And finally,
A8E Read & interpret graphs

So, Sid, ball's in your court. I've played your game. There it is, right in the state standard for Algebra I. Part of learning Algebra is learning to read and interpret graphs.

Now, I'll ask again. Clearly the ability to read and interpret graphs is necessary for understanding the evidence regarding the vaccine decision. Is it maybe possible that you took a position in this thread to be contrary, but refuse to admit when you’re shown to be incorrect?

Should you need help, do not hesitate to call me.

Sid, as you are the one trying to hypercorrect, descriptivism gets you nowhere. "Should" in this example is nothing more nor less than a solecism for "if." Moreover, the (here, hortatory) subjunctive isn't broken, as in your own monstrosities.

Adam, I trying my best here. Anyway, you almost answered my question. But you don't say how you used exponential functions for example. I hate to keep asking but what did your analysis of the data tell you? How did that affect your decision? So you feel you need algebra to decide. I don't. Are you saying the only way to make a decision is your way. Then I must be making a mistake no vaccinating. Tell me what my mistake is. What are the pieces of information I need to make the right choice.

@Chris
Yes, 4 people is quite a small "study." I noticed several studies (20%) found near life long immunity. And one 20 years. I'll have to check why they rejected the studies of near lifelong immunity capping protection at 20 years

It basically shows that immunity can wane in a very short time. And I notice you are ignoring the larger study from Senegal.

This part of the data points near the origin of Figure 6 in the paper you posted. Notice that line did not start after "10."

Sid, you're completely dodging the question, and everyone here can see it. I am not going to explain to you in great detail how exponential curves relate to that document when you can't even be bothered to define what algebra is. I am not entering into a debate with you about whether or not to vaccinate. That wasn't my point. My point is that if you truly want people to make that decision for themselves, they need at minimum an understanding of how to read and interpret graphs. Being able to read and interpret graphs is a core component of high school algebra curricula.

Are you saying the only way to make a decision is your way. Then I must be making a mistake no vaccinating.

How did you personally come to this decision, Sid? How can I be sure that it did not involve an understanding of basic algebra, given that you said earlier you have taken algebra and even help your daughter with it?

Sid is using some form of this equation. "Risk to myself from vaccination" is X. If X > 0, then the answer is "no."

Mind you, I'm an English major who got a C in algebra and a D- in geometry. It drives my sister crazy when I do simple math by counting on my fingers.

http://calculuscourse.maa.org/sample/Chapter5/Projects/SIR%20Model/SIR7…

Cripes Sid, this is why your blog is so vapid.

So simply knowing that an epidemic is ongoing doesn’t tell me I’m at an elevated risk? And knowing cases per 100K this year as opposed to a normal year has no meaning? Besides incidence is irrelevant if the illness causes no worry to the person considering a shot.

As to the mercury example, algebra can be useful to some but I’ve not found it to be relevant. I’m quite comfortable in my rejection of the .

Finally, you still haven’t shared your specific though process with us. Did you even have one. Not being able to support your assertions IS a weakness.

Three hints, Sid:

1) You asked for any algebraic equation relevant to vaccines. Receiving one, and then asking for one specific equation and for all the variables to be plugged in for you, is moving the goalposts, a sign of failure.
2) What you are doing now is essentially the famous creationist "god of the gaps" fallacy, applied to mathematics. It does not fool anyone, except those who are so desperate that, like you, they will sprinkle sugar on the **** of failure and chomp down on it pretending it's the brownie of success.
3) Merely being stubborn in abject failure does not constitute an "impasse." There is no "impasse" between those who recognize The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the plagiarized racist fiction that it is and those who stubbornly cling to the belief that it is authentic evidence for their anti-Semitic paranoia (or am I overestimating you, Sid, by guessing that you are reality-based enough to be in the first camp?)

Allow me to speculate a little about how I think anti-vaxxers might be cogitating:

I will use hugely rounded numbers ( you may substitute "small, medium, large", if you like). SBM/ vaccine advocates postulate that a small risk is associated with vaccines ( 1 in a million) but that the illness itself would have serious consequences about 1 in a thousand times ( medium risk). So, easily we accept the smaller risk ( i.e. vaccines)

Here is where anti-vaxxers depart from commonality of thought with the SBMers: they have been led to believe that autism is caused by vaccines AND that autism occurs about 1 in 100 children ( large risk).Thus they believe that vaccines 'damage' is 1 in 100 ( plus the 1 in 1 million we accept). This is obviously a much greater risk than the medium risk of the illness itself: they cannot accept the large risk of vaccines as they see it.

Why we cannot get through to them is because that 1 in 100 risk is inscribed deeply in their souls as an article of faith. Reasoning and mathematics will not put a dent in that because it has nothing to do with reasoning: it is an emotional reaction to figures ( large risk) not based in reality but on spurious research and propaganda.

AdamG:
"When making my decision regarding the Tdap booster, I used the following concepts:

A1E Exponential functions

A3:Function Characteristics
A3A Relations, functions, domain, range, roots, inde/dependent variables.
A3B Representations: symbolic, graph, table, words, connections between

A6: Data and Distributions
A6A Use summary statistics, compare data sets
A6B Make valid inferences based on data

And finally,
A8E Read & interpret graphs"

This, for which I thank you, underpins what I said earlier in the thread about algebra being the basis for understanding statistical concepts - which are all written in algebraic form. The impression I get is that your state is using the algebra stuff to provide the basis for a good understanding of symbolic manipulation in things like statistics and demonstrate statistics as a very socially important application of algebra skills. A bloody good aim, as far as I am concerned. And - absolutely - those are the key algebra skills I would expect people to need in order to understand the data in order to make a sensible decision based on that data.

Which is why I feel sorry for any offspring that Sid Offitshead might have, given that he has an obvious lack of these very important skills.

algebra can be useful to some but I’ve not found it to be relevant.

Ah, so what Sid is seeking is an application of algebra that is relevant to him. Alles klar.

Novalox, thanks so much for introducing me to the Mendoza Line -- a wonderfully handy image.

Anecdote:
While I had a very talented teacher for Algebra I and II in high school, I made it through only by rote memory and brute force. I hated it.

Six years later, I took an algebra review course before attempting the GREs (Graduate Record Exam) and the GMAT (Graduate Management Admissions Test). To my great surprise, I thoroughly enjoyed the course and did very well, and went on to take undergraduate classes in Algebra I and II while waiting to start my graduate program.

Surmise: for some reason, my brain hadn't matured enough at 15 and 16 to think algebraically easily, and by 22 it had.

Out here in California, the University of California has a series of coursework requirements, commonly known as the a-g requirements. Here's what UC says about the math requirement (3 years minimum; 4 years encouraged):

The intent of the mathematics requirement is to enable students to develop the ability to think mathematically as well as to provide background and skills for classes and disciplines with specific mathematical content.

More important than the topics covered, or even the skills used directly in class, are the more general abilities and attitudes that should be gained in the effort of mastering the content. These include fostering:

1. A view that mathematics makes sense: it offers ways of understanding and thinking; it is not just a collection of definitions, algorithms, and/or theorems to memorize and apply.

2. A proclivity to put time and thought into using mathematics to grasp and solve unfamiliar problems that may not match examples the student has seen before. Students should find patterns, make and test conjectures, try multiple representations (e.g., symbolic, geometric, graphical) and approaches (e.g., deduction, mathematical induction, linking to known results), analyze simple examples, make abstractions and generalizations, and verify that solutions are correct, approximate, or reasonable, as appropriate.

3. A view that mathematics approximates reality and mathematical models can guide our understanding of the world around us.

4. An awareness of special goals of mathematics, such as clarity and brevity (e.g., via symbols and precise definitions), parsimony (removing irrelevant detail), universality (claims must be true in all possible cases, not just most or all known cases), and objectivity (students should ask "Why?" and accept answers based on reason, not authority).

5. Confidence and fluency in handling formulas and computational algorithms: understanding their motivation and design, predicting approximate outcomes, and computing them -- mentally, on paper, or with technology, as appropriate. Mathematics is a language, fluency in it is a basic skill, and fluency in computation is one key component.

How can one become "fluent" without algebra? I submit it cannot be done.

It seems pretty obvious that thinking algebraically is necessary to correctly understand the world, which explains why Sid, who wishes to misunderstand it instead, wants to keep algebra at arms' length.

Perhaps Sid would like to tell me how I figured these stats out without algebra: http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/08/washington-state-pertussis-outbr…

I guess if anti-vaxxers could actually think, they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.

I imagine group theory represents frank restraint of trade in Sid's mind. Think of the Rubik's Freedom Cubes!

Science Mom, do you use algebra when cleaning out the rat cages?

Mr. Schecter, have you figured out when the line starts on the x-axis on Figure 6 of the paper you referenced?

Yes Liz , that's why kids are deeply in debt after graduating college: they spend precious years studying irrelevant concepts they shall never use. Time to cut off taxpayer money from the university system and let these self indulgent concepts die a natural and well deserved death.

So neither you nor your daughter know how to read a graph. A failure we have witnessed here from you repeatedly. We can all now assume she does not have the qualifications to apply to the University of California, or any other real college. Because most serious centers of higher education actually value math skills.

My daughter's acceptance in the university she starts at soon would have been rescinded if she did not take a math heavy course her senior year of high school, even though she had algebra in the eighth grade. Her last high school math course was pre-calculus, but that was her junior year. Her last year of high school was at a community college (there is a similar program in California), where she completed the math heavy course for the university by taking statistics.

Really, I am surprised that someone who does real estate speculation like yourself does not understand the concepts used in compound interest. That is just bad business, and your lack of basic math background should be enough to keep anyone from ever engaging you in any business deal.

Here it is: Robert Schecter does not know how to do basic algebra, so anyone who wants to deal with his commercial real estate business should know this.

I have no commercial real estate business. I invest in the commodity and equity markets. I have nothing against math or algebra. It is simply not essential for most people and should not be forced on kids and students. I don't think formal coursework in algebra is necessary to read a graph. My daughter and I have both taken and passed algebra, so if we can't read graphs it simply means even if you force a child to take a subject you can't force them to retain the information contained in that class. I wish your daughter much success in college and afterward and hope she gets some use out of the math courses she attends.

@Liz Ditz

You are welcome.

Guess from his comments, he's trying to surpass the titanium sombrero.

@sid

And we see why you had to go to fire school. Thank you for that piece of unabashed stupidity.

But yeah, someone dealing with commercial real estate who doesn't value the use of basic algebra isn't anyone I, nor anyone with some common sense, would want to deal with.

Okay, my error. You just can't read a basic graphs.

My daughter will be majoring in linguistics by taking Swedish. This is her third non-native language after Japanese and French. Since she will be going for a degree in the psychology of language, she will be using statistics, and that includes the ability of reading a graph. Because one of the pre=requisites to take a basic statistics class is to understand the basic equation of a line: y = mx + b (m = slope, and b = y-intercept).

Which seems to be a skill that handicaps your family. You should work on that. Because it is making you look like a fool on this blog.

My daughter and I have both taken and passed algebra, so if we can’t read graphs it simply means even if you force a child to take a subject you can’t force them to retain the information contained in that class.

Oh this is just precious. Of course it has to be someone else's fault you and your special snowflake can't navigate basic graphs. And your insults well, aren't. Try a bit of honesty Sid, for starters concede that you made a gross misstatement about the utility of algebra and how it can relate to vaccines. Or not and no one will be shocked.

pre=requisites should be prerequisites

Good luck to those who apply to university who actually forget the basics!

Forgetting useless information isn't a bug, it's a feature.

@sid

Yawn, another ill-inspired attempt at insult.

Do try again, you amuse me.

I don’t think formal coursework in algebra is necessary to read a graph

Sid, do I really need to re-paste the state algebra 1 standard that includes 'reading and interpreting graphs?' You may not think that formal coursework is necessary, but every state standard I've looked up disagrees with you.

Where did you learn to read a graph?

They spend precious years studying irrelevant concepts they shall never use.

As compared with not studying irrelevant concepts so that they can later be comically misapplied?

Sid Offit 1:04 am: Science Mom, do you use algebra when cleaning out the rat cages?

LoL .. Arsehole!

Sid Offit 1:45am: My daughter and I have both taken and passed algebra, so if we can’t
read graphs it simply means even if you force a child to take a subject you can’t force them
to retain the information contained in that class.

No, it means either that you are both too lazy to remember important stuff, or that you bribed
the living crap out of the external assessor(s) involved (and given the amount of money that
would be involved in the second of these options, I'm going to bet on the first one!).

Chris 1:56am: Since she will be going for a degree in the psychology of language, she
will be using statistics, and that includes the ability of reading a graph. Because one of the
prerequisites to take a basic statistics class is to understand the basic equation of a line:
y = mx + b (m = slope, and b = y-intercept).

Absolutely, Chris! The first thing one learns how to solve in basic algebra is the linear equation,
which is the basis of linear regression work in statistical analysis. I work with my ex-missus on
training days to teach people about testing methods and data analysis for checking who it is
really that's writing in FC stuff. And the most recent of these was given to a group of
mostly speech therapists, whose training in Finland involves studying for a master's degree.
During this degree course they study many things, including a lot of psychology (it actually
forms a very substantial minor subject in their transcripts), and an entire subsidiary in statistics
for the behavioural sciences. And yet they cannot get their heads around the science that
demonstrates beyond all doubt that FC just doesn't work at all. So much for the usefulness of
Offishead's tactic/strategy/anti--intellectualism of forgetting what he deems to be useless stuff.
As has been repeatedly stated here, were he to actually be bothered to retain that stuff and
use it to inform his decision-making, he'd not find much of any appeal in the anti-vax stupidity
that's going on just now. His attempts at rebuttal of this point are less than jokes, and show
more about his own personality failings than any constitutional inability to comprehend
mathematical concepts (such as we find in both dyslexia and dyscalculia). Offishead simply
does not want to learn anything that goes against his preconceived and ill-conceived
idea of how the universe works, and resists any information that would demonstrate that he is
just plain wrong about something. It's definitely a personality flaw.

Chris 1:56am: Which seems to be a skill that handicaps your family. You should work on that.
Because it is making you look like a fool on this blog.

Well, the lack of which skill is the handicapping issue in his family, really. But your point
remains valid and accurate.

Sh*t Offishead 2:08am: Forgetting useless information isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

Except that information that you claim is useless is more useful that you'd wish it to be. See
above note about your personality flaw. See, in my master's degree in education, we learned
about learning difficulties and how to differentiate between those issues and people simply
being too stupid to bother learning. We all know which one of these issues handicaps you.

Same imbecile 1:45am: I don’t think formal coursework in algebra is necessary to read a
graph

Thankfully, you don't get to decide this stuff. People who understand this education stuff better
than you do get to decide. I feel sad for your family. They must miss out on so much.

Wow, Sid has degenerated into simple insults now - and drive-by ones at that. He must be getting frustrated that the country hasn't bowed down to the glory of his libertarian politics....

I'm curious to know if there are any subjects that Sid feels should be compulsory: if so, why and if not, why not?

Are there any subjects at all that every kid must learn?

Forgetting useless information isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

I never understood why people go to the trouble of forgetting things. It seems such a waste of time. You only have to re-learn them later.

Science Mom, do you use algebra when cleaning out the rat cages?

Why don't you try spelling out your syllogism, Sid? I think we'd all find that real interesting. Here, I'll do most of it for you:

1. Algebra is not necessary to clean out rat cages.
2. ?
3. Therefore, algebra is unnecessary in almost every adult profession.

Please fill in 2. for us, Sid, please do. I'm sure we'll all just be fascinated by what you come up with. "There are few adult professions that require any other skill but the cleaning of rat cages"? Sheds new light on the value of a fire science degree.

I have something in common with Sid: investing. Not that it was my idea: it was foisted upon me and I got stuck ( but NO commodities, ever)- now I love it. However, I was- like quite a few other folks in my family- recognised to have abilities in mathematics. I never had any problems, took advanced courses including applications to economics/ psychology graduate work. All of this has come in handy.

What I can't wrap my head around is how he can comprehend the arcane and mysterious indices and valuations proclaimed by the financial oracles ( praise them!) about the economy, prices, trends and other facets of reality that often land upon our ( metaphorical) doorsteps saying, " Guess what's bad news today?" Nearly 4 years ago, I recall waking up nervously every day to see what the libor was doing. Or vix. It was a frightening time.

How anyone can comprehend and deal with this stuff without a decent mathematical background is beyond me. How can you understand someone else's analyses and apply them to your own interests? And graphs? Turn on any financial television channel, what do you see? Go to any website that provides information, what's there? Endless.

And let's be entirely frank: people who are skilled in this area earn more than those who aren't . Engineering, computer science, medicine, industry, research, banking, trade,...

Mr. Schecter's inability to read a graph does explain his total confusion over Figure 6 in a paper he posted. So, yes, it is a "bug" to forget simple useful things like how to read a graph.

@ Denice:

I suspect he's one of the "investors" whose strategy is just "pile into whatever did well last week." Doesn't bother to actually understand anything.

Chris

So, yes, it is a “bug” to forget simple useful things like how to read a graph.

On the contrary, it is a feature for a contrarian or a libertarian as is any other form of ignorance.

@ Beamup:

Oh, I see, he attended the Last Week's School of Economics ( LWSE). Not that other place.

Writes Sid Potatohead, exhibiting reading comprehension fail

Yes Liz , that’s why kids are deeply in debt after graduating college:

What I copypasta'd was the requirements for applying to the UC system.

they spend precious years studying irrelevant concepts they shall never use.

Oops, Siddo, Grammar fail. (I don't have Narad's facility with describing the error, though, which is reminding me to brush up.)

Time to cut off taxpayer money from the university system and let these self indulgent concepts die a natural and well deserved death.

The usual libertarian nonsense. The US's lack of investment in education will be hampering our economic growth for decades.

I wonder if Sid Potatohead can tell us what percent of the UC's budget is comes directly from state revenues (that is, taxes). I doubt it. I was surprised by the figure myself.

sid offit @2:08 am Aug 8

Forgetting useless information isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

Declaring information you’ve forgotten is useless is an excuse.

@ Liz :
* they will never use* ( "shall" with "they" is only for sarcasm)

One of the most hilarious memes I have encountered in Woo-topia-
" the educational systemn is so poor/ it produces people who can't think" ( therefore customers)
This is Dunning-Kruger- tainted meta-cognition on a societal level: an under/ barely-educated woo-meister believes his level of education is superior to the average person's as well as that of doctors, biologists, educators et al based on his usual critiques of science.
Executive dys-function, they has it.

*shivers*

bloody hell - it's cold and empty in here..... and the lights don't bloody work!!!!!

M. Ed., C. P. S. E.

If that were my picture, I would have gone with the generic avatar.

@The Ditz:

The US’s lack of investment in education will be hampering our economic growth for decades.

Silly, unsubstantiated nonsense>

M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
too lazy to remember important stuff

Too smart to retain irrelevant stuff

FC
I’m curious to know if there are any subjects that Sid feels should be compulsory: if so, why and if not, why not?

Are there any subjects at all that every kid must learn?

It is a parents decision

Denice Walter
As I said before, a year or two of algebra is not required to read a graph or understand a balance sheet

Remember, this is the same Sid who, despite having an education in "fire science", forgot how fire worked for the sake of an argument in favor of privatized fire departments.

Person or Specimen? Cadavers in the medical dissection lab

bioephemera — Sat, 25 Apr 2009 15:00:00 +0000

Person or Specimen? Cadavers in the medical dissection lab

Christmas greeting card, school unknown, circa 1920.
Dittrick Medical History Center
from Dissection: Photographs of a Rite of Passage in American Medicine 1880-1930

Slate has an intriguing new review by Barron Lerner of a book called Dissection: Photographs of a Rite of Passage in American Medicine 1880-1930, by John Harley Warner and James M. Edmonson. The book delves into the turn-of-the-century practice of photographing medical students with cadavers - photos that today read as weird, grotesque, even offensive.

The photos unearthed by Warner and Edmonson depict an astonishing variety of attitudes toward cadavers. Some of the photos have the earnest, formal air of yearbooks (at least one is of a dissecting club, with the names of the members listed). In others, the cadaver seems to resemble a trophy: you can imagine a similar pose being struck by hunters or fishermen with their kill. Still others use the ancient conceit (which goes back to Vesalius) of depicting skeletons or muscle men as living, moving actors in dynamic poses: in one, the skeleton smokes a pipe with his dissector!

You can see a slideshow of the images here.

Looking at the photos, it's hard to know how one should react. On the one hand, one can dismiss these photos as youthful hijinks, or demonstrations of poor taste. My own experience with dissection students suggests they represent bravado in the face of death - gallows humor intended to mock, and thus defuse, our common mortality. Or perhaps it's the opposite: perhaps our attitudes toward death have changed since the turn of the century, and these medical students simply didn't find cadavers as disquieting as we do today. After all, in our world death typically occurs in a sterile hospital setting and loved ones may never see a lifeless body.

It's impossible to answer these questions without delving into the history of medicine and what exactly "death" means. The cadaver is a complex, socially constructed entity, laden with all kinds of meanings, from the frivolous to tragic to sinister to religious. But in the context of an anatomy lab, it's a specimen whose function is not to symbolize mortality, but to help us learn about the processes that supported life. In a teaching lab, we don't dissect the cadaver to know more about the unique person it used to house, but to understand universal, generic physiological processes. Balancing these different relationships with a cadaver is a challenge for any anatomy novice, and though these issues may have been differently weighted at the turn of the century, I imagine many of them were the same.

The authors of Dissection apparently have similar feelings. From Lerner's review:

Although the photographs may appear inappropriate to us, Warner argues, they commemorate a bonding experience between student and cadaver that was actually lost after 1930. After that point, he says, a new era of objectivity and detachment entered medical education, ending the earlier emotional attachment to the dissection process.(source)

But Lerner seems more concerned with a different issue: the fact that many of the cadavers are African-American, while their dissectors are white. Lerner suggests that might have been a reason why contemporaneous objections to the voyeuristic photos were few.

Warner rightly makes an analogy to the gruesome lynching photographs of the same era that were also distributed to genteel society through various souvenir cards. In a clever bit of historical detective work, Warner and Edmonson even discover that a particular photographer, G.H. Farnum of Oklahoma, actually took both types of photographs. Some of the dissection images contain racist inscriptions, such as "Sliced Nigger," from the Wake Forest School of Medicine and "All Coons Smell Alike to Us," from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Baltimore. (source)

At this point, the modern reader is sure to recoil. Posing with a skeleton smoking a pipe is one thing, but racist slurs are another issue entirely in our culture, and rightly so.

The question I have, though, is whether African-American cadavers were generally treated much differently by medical students than white cadavers. According to the review, "students at African-American medical schools like Howard also dissected black cadavers and took photographs," so perhaps not. And if there is one thing I've learned about dissection, it's that as one continues, it becomes hard to distinguish gender, much less ethnicity. Dissection strips away the outward differences of age, skin color, socioeconomic class, and nationality, and gets down to the, well, bones of what it means to be human. And while that might just be my optimistic, modern interpretation, I find it hard to imagine that those turn-of-the-century doctors didn't come away from their dissection with an appreciation for how every human being is fundamentally similar. At least I hope so.

Lerner's account of Dissection reminded me of another book I blogged about a couple of years ago: medical resident Christine Montross' Body of Work. Since my post on that book post already expressed many of my feelings about how students relate to cadavers, I decided it might be useful to republish the original post here. So here is what I had to say about Body of Work in 2007. . .

**********************

The LA Times recently reviewed Body of Work: Meditations on Mortality from the Human Anatomy Lab, a memoir by medical resident Christine Montross. I've been trying to decide if I want to read it, and I'm still uncertain. Although a relative novice when it comes to medicine (my degree is in molecular biology), I taught anatomy using human cadavers, and have dissected them. I never found cadavers the least bit disturbing. But I may be unusual in my detachment - my students reacted with disgust, distress, nervousness - and constant anxiety that their reactions weren't normal.

But what is normal? How should we relate to a donated cadaver in the anatomy lab - as a person, or a thing? Some reactions seem to be universal - gallows humor, for example. Humans have been laughing at death since long before Shakespeare. (What other weapon do we have? Death always wins, and the cadaver's the un-living proof of it.) We have some general rules of conduct - for example, treating the cadaver with respect, keeping the pieces of the various cadavers separate, covering face and genitals when they are not being examined. But such rules seem to be mostly for the students' comfort, since it's hard for a cadaver to retain modesty or dignity, at least in a traditional sense, when skin is missing and viscera are exposed.

Students respond to cadavers in personal ways, based on their own family histories, so one student's experience of dissection is unlike any other's. Everyone sees the cadaver differently: is this a person, or a patient, or a body, or a teaching specimen, or an illustration. . .? When students take limbs from a skeleton and hold them up to their own arms, turning them to determine the correct orientation, they enact a little unconscious ritual: memento mori. One student was fine with the cadavers until her grandmother passed away; after that, she found the cadaver so disturbing she couldn't be in the same room with it. The boundaries of life and death, previously comfortably clear, had blurred intolerably. Before class began, students came to me, concerned that they might find the body of a deceased relative in the lab: when and were and who, they wanted to know. (Why came much later.)

Montross' book takes on some of these issues. As reviewed by Harvard professor, poet and doctor Rafael Campo,

"Body of Work" is at its best when Montross, who is also a poet, allows us to observe the astonishing beauty her dissection reveals, and to relish the language she uses to describe it. "The language of these bones slides along their edges," she writes. "Os coxae, the hip bones. Their three parts, with names like flowers: ilium, ischium, pubis.... The pelvic brim, as if water spills over it.... Brim, arch, spine. The ligament names like a call to prayer: sacrospinous, sacrotuberous. Sacrosanct."

This wonder cabinet of anatomical language is familiar to any biologist. It is indeed beautiful. So is the body it describes. But Campo rebukes Montross for allowing such language to establish a clinical distance between herself and the life history of her assigned cadaver, "Eve:"

I believe it is the depersonalization first modeled for aspiring doctors in their encounters with cadavers that accounts for much of the lack of professionalism and career burnout in physicians, and the callous treatment patients too often receive nowadays.

Really: studying the body as beautiful, complex object is a precursor to treating living patients callously? I have never known anyone to leave an anatomy lab feeling less respect and wonder for human beings than before they began. Yet Campo wants the anatomical curriculum to explicitly address the spiritual, not just the physical:

In this age of frequently misapplied technology, here is a chance to make productive use of video cameras and monitors: Might not a video of Eve, telling of her life and created at the time she decided to donate her body, help mitigate some of the mistreatment Montross documents, as well as the subsequent distancing she (however uneasily) comes to approve?

A pleasant idea - and what I'd expect from the author of The Desire To Heal: A Doctor's Education in Empathy, Identity, and Poetry. Empathy should be part of the training of doctors and nurses alike. But is anatomy lab the right venue in which to share the life history of a cadaver? Personal details would increase the discomfort of beginners - in my experience, overly powerful empathy for the deceased disrupts their ability to cut and handle the body (a point Campo seems to dismiss). Would cadavers without life stories receive less respect or care than those who had documented their lives?

Isn't the point that regardless of our living identities, whether we are good or bad, our bodies are kin, after death and in life? When the cadaver was alive, it was home to a unique mind. Now that its cells are dead, is its role in the laboratory to elegize that mind - or to represent universal anatomical mechanisms? As a biologist, the answer seems fairly clear. Perhaps a doctor feels differently; I don't know. But I was disappointed as Montross appears to conclude her book by backtracking from scientific objectivity to elegaic ritual (with Campo's approval):

Great teacher," she intones, "I give you flowers. I carry your body to the funeral pyre. When you burn, may every space in you that I have named flare and burst into light." Thus she aligns herself with the humane tradition of honoring the dead, and the act of love inherent in tending to them. The detached concern she professes to want to emulate seems refreshingly absent here. Perhaps, in recognizing our universal and very human contradictions, there is hope for the beleaguered medical profession, after all.

Honestly, this leaves me cold. I can't speak for anyone else, but if my body ever ends up in a cadaver lab, I don't want people intoning poetry to it. I want them to dissect it. And yes, I said "it," not "me." I'll be dead. My body is a wonderful clockwork, but it ain't me.

The imagined ritual may be beautiful and humane, but it is a pleasant fiction, meant for the observer, not the observed. It has nothing to do with the cadaver's living identity - we have no idea who "Eve" was, nor if she even desired commemoration. Most importantly, the manifest beauty of the human body doesn't require validation by tradition or flowers (or words). We don't have to turn a cadaver into a spiritual symbol to make it a wonder: it already is wonderful, even in death. And if someone fails to understand that, I doubt they should be practicing medicine at all.

***************
Thanks to Mo of Neurophilosophy for the heads-up on the Slate review.

bioephemera Sat, 04/25/2009 - 11:00

Categories

Social Sciences

WOW! What an amazing fucking post, BioE!!

In discussions I have had with my medical students, they have been pretty clear that the levity is a defense mechanism against the horror of death and the grotesqueness of what they are doing to what used to be a human being.

This post reminded me of something I first learned about a good 10 years ago now. There's an awfully long history of photographing corpses. My high school photography teacher had a copy of "Sleeping Beauty: Memorial Photography in America" in the classroom, and it's fascinating looking at what used to be a widely accepted way to memorialize the dead.

Have you ever read Mary Roach's book, Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers ?
http://www.maryroach.net/books.html

There's a section discussing a cadaver dissection class at, I believe, Stanford University, and I was impressed by the respect with which these physicians-to-be worked with the cadavers. If I remember correctly, at the end of the semester, when those cadavers had been studied and were now disassembled remains, there was a memorial service to honor the decedents for their generosity.

I kind of like that. I also recall reading somewhere else, and I cannot remember where, that a man intended to leave his body to science specifically because he liked the idea of giving some medical student nightmares.

Gallows humor does not stand up to scrutiny, for the most part, and ought not to be expected to. I remember I had to go to the county coroner's office one time, on an assignment from my supervising attorney, in regard to a body part in the deep freeze. The back office was crowded and on the bulletin boards were all sorts of cartoons and weird things, and in the corner was a skeleton with a bright knit ski cap plopped onto its skull. There's just some stuff you have to do in order to do stuff, you know?

But I don't think I want to look at those photos. Hmmm.

Sarah, for more on memorial photos, Morbid Anatomy has a great set of links here.

First of all, great post. I'm a medical student, just finished my second round of dissection exams, so im especially interested in reading it

One thing I wanted to address, is what you refer to as "levity" or "gallow's humor" by students. In 2 3-week rounds of dissection, working with the other 19 students from my class, I never once noticed such behaviour. Maybe it's the lack of supernatural beliefs in this country, or their attitude towards learning, but all of us were neither mocking or silly nor too stuffy. In other words, we behaved quite normally.

(I'm studying in Prague, by the way)

-Leon

Oh, and by the way, faces and genitals are not covered here. This may be quite important as I think is very reflective of how the human remains are treated differently in these two cases.

I find this rather interesting, in that I wonder how much of this perceived disrespect that Campo is so concerned about actually translates into the development of a healthy and necessary objectivity. Possibly the biggest concern I have about going into clinical work (which even though my focus is going to be research and developing better therapeutic models for treating addiction, will be a big part of my professional life) is becoming better at not internalizing the problems of my future clients. I can see this being a rather big problem for MDs as well and would think that working with cadavers would help.

I am also rather torn about where my remains will be donated. I really like the idea of helping med students, but I am also pretty interested in the body farms and helping further the study of forensic anthropology and crime scene investigations (that and I find an image of my corpse dangling from a tree or half buried rather amusing).

I am definitely not the least interested in letting this body of mine going to waste when I'm done using it.

Hi Jessica:
Thanks so much for your very thoughtful article about our book. As the book's publisher, editor, and designer, I very much appreciate your thoughts and those of the people who have responded as well, and I've passed this along to our authors. I especially like your paragraph about bravado in the face of death. We'll never be able to know precisely what these young men and women thought about, but clearly the range of behavior was broad, from reverential commemoration to breaches of conduct.

I think of this book as one that reveals a fascinating hidden part of American history. By the way, you probably already are familiar with the two MÃ¼tter Museum books we published, in 2002, and 2007, but if not, I feel certain they will interest you as well.

I agree with DuWayne--why let the body go to waste when you've finished with it--or, as is more likely the case, when it is finished with you!

Best wishes,
Laura L

Thanks, Laura - I am very much looking forward to reading the book myself. It sounds like your team did a great job!

For everyone else, note that there is a new review of Dissection today at Inside Higher Ed.

Jessica:

As a whole body donor to a medical school, I believe that a cadaver is a teaching tool, a specimen of a once living person that serves as an anatomical model.

When it comes time for me to become a med school cadaver, hopefully "my" students will thoroughly dissect the remains, while having fun in the process of learning human anatomy. The structure of human anatomy, the product of billions of years of evolution, is, as you say, beautifully complex. Reciting poetry to a cadaver should remain the province of artists and writers, not scientists or doctors in training.

Certainly, I have a different perspective on the topic, in that I once worked in public affairs for a tissue transplant service, recruiting and educating prospective donors and their families for whole body donation. In that capacity, I assisted in several tissue "harvests", as bones, corneas and connective tissue were removed from donors, and transplanted into living recipients. At that time, I also toured anatomy and research labs.

Since I left that position, my Father has had two cornea transplants and cousin has received the donated liver of an accident victim.

Over the years, I've known a number of people who are registered as future body donors, and who donated their bodies for dissection after death. Despite the awkardness associated with the subject of body donation, it is encouraging that more people are considering this option.

Today, whole body tissue banks are increasingly popular, as well as the emerging science of polymer preservation, which a number of medical schools offer to their potential donors.

If the "afterlife" consists of nothing more than serving as a specimen for dissection or transplant tissue, then so be it. Personally, I would consider it an honor to someday join the ranks of other body donors in the gross anatomy lab, and to have my ashes commingled and buried with those of like-minded men and women in a communal cemetary plot, free of religiosity and superstition.

Congratulations on a cogent, excellent web site and blog.

When I die, I want to donate my body. As has been said, I am not exactly using it any more (grin). Further, compliance with my personal religion involves putting it back into the natural cycle; in other words, rotting away to be used up by plants, etc. If I must be embalmed, I'd rather be useful before I'm cremated and buried under a tree.

I am taking a pathophysiology class on-line, and we were given a choice of subjects for our class research paper; I chose plastination. I saw the Body World exhibit while in LA a few years back, and was utterly amazed and transfixed with the whole exhibit and the subject of the plastination process. No longer are burial and cremation our only choices when we die! No one has to be placed in a box, in the ground or on the mantle, wasting space and our opportunity in teaching others about the fasinatic creatures that we are. Donating one's body to medical science and education is an opportunity to give back something of yourself to the world you have left behind. Without the use of cadavers over these many years of medicine's growth, we would still be in the dark ages, brewing snake eyes and frog balls to combat gout or a yeast infection. Call me morbid if you want, but plastination is an art all on its own, and for those that view it as a medium of education, will walk away with a much better understanding of what makes us human, from the inside out. My kids already think me a freak, so seeing me posed with a garden rake in my hand, while showing all the muscles it takes to swing that tool, will certainly be the talk 'round the ole dinner table when someone recounts their visit to see Body Worlds!
PJ, student, granmother, gardener

Just to comment on Patricia's post: Plastination is a groundbreaking technique in anatomical education, and the touring exhibits popularize anatomy to enlighten the general public on the wonders of the human body. I applaud Patricia's decision to be plastinated, and hope that, when the time comes many years from now, she will have the opportunity to spend her "afterlife" as a plastinate, inspiring future generations.

As the daughter of an anatomy professor (Frank H. J. Figge) at the University of Maryland, I used to sit on a stool and watch him demonstrate to students, awed at his dissecting skill. Of course I am donating my body, as he and my mother did. His introduction to Gross Anatomy set the tone of respect, and over the course of two semesters the students learned how wonderfully the human body is made. I hope MY doctors took Gross seriously!

Some years ago a colleague who was an avid fly tying fisherman died. As part of his memorial ceremony, our advisor (we were both DeVore's students) put on display a display box of his flies. One of the flies had been captured and tied up by a spider.

The Ethics of Diagnosing a Stranger

purepedantry — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:23:08 +0000

The Ethics of Diagnosing a Stranger

Nature Clinical Practice Neurology has a salient article on ethics and medicine. The article asks the question: is it ethical to confront an individual with whom you do not have an official doctor-patient relationship, if you think they have a medical problem? Should you or should you not tell them if you see a medical problem?

Neurology is unique among the medical specialties in that much of the clinical examination can be appreciated visually and taught by use of video recordings.3, 4 Since 2003, we have conducted a 'neurological localization course', during which participants are taught correct clinical examination techniques with the help of patients.5 Trainees are often impressed by the wealth of clinical information that can be gleaned by observation alone; for example, how the externally rotated, slightly plantar-flexed attitude of the lower limb of a supine patient can hint at the possibility of an underlying footdrop, or how muscle atrophy, diabetic dermopathy and trophic changes can not only provide clues to an underlying peripheral neuropathy, but can even indicate the level of the stocking paresthesia.

Several weeks after our encounter with the woman with choreiform movements, we were enjoying another post-rounds breakfast-cum-discussion when our attention was drawn to a colleague whose subtle neck and facial movements were accompanied by grunting noises while eating--phenomena indicative of complex motor tics, rather than the more facile explanation that he was really enjoying his morning porridge. When he had left, the medical student attached to our team asked the obvious question: with the evidence staring us in the face, why did no one inform him of the diagnosis and proffer appropriate treatment? Having acknowledged the proverbial 'elephant in the room', we launched into an animated discussion about a physician's duty of care, asking whether the ethical imperative to treat exists only in a medical emergency or after the establishment of a formal doctor-patient relationship.

Few would argue that doctors have a moral and legal obligation to render assistance in the event of a medical emergency.6 A formal doctor-patient relationship likewise provides a doctor with the moral and legal imperative to practice 'good medicine'. Hence, a neurologist seeing a patient for diabetic polyneuropathy would not hesitate to enquire about symptoms of hyperthyroidism when the patient has a noticeable goiter, despite its apparent irrelevance to the case. Indeed, the same doctor would be thought negligent if he were to ignore or fail to notice a goiter in a patient with myasthenia gravis, in view of the known associations between these two conditions.

Was our group remiss because we did not inform the stranger with choreiform movements or our colleague with tics of their diagnoses, simply to avoid embarrassment?

Read the whole thing.

I can tell you that I run into this issue all the time since I got into medical school. You would be shocked about the amount that you can know about someone's medical history just by looking at them.

For example, in the last month, I have seen at least two people on the subway with digital clubbing -- a symptom usually associated with heart or lung problems. Considering that neither of them had O2 tanks and both were coughing profusely and were short of breath, I doubt that either had been diagnosed with something. As one of the things they could be diagnosed with is lung cancer, I considered the possibility of asking whether they were OK.

Another time, I saw someone with spider angiomas and a mild yellow tinge to their skin -- both suggesting liver disease. The guy didn't stink of alcohol, so it might have been hepatitis.

I can't even tell you the number of homeless people in our neighborhood wandering around a weird wide gate characteristic of Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Wernicke's encephalopathy is caused by thiamine deficiency -- usually secondary to alcohol abuse. It causes degeneration in part of the cerebellum that helps you maintain balance, so patients have a really wide gate to keep from falling over.

These are just some examples.

In all of these cases, I didn't say anything. Partly that is because I am not a real doctor yet. But even if I were, I don't think I would. Partly it is because their problems weren't acute. If I saw someone on the subway who didn't look like they would finish the ride without being resuscitated, I would definitely do something. But mostly it is because I consider it a violation of their privacy to do so.

There are many things that can go wrong with your body. There are many people in this world that would like to destroy their bodies blissfully unaware of those consequences. What right do I have to inflict my values on them? (Even if I saw them in a hospital setting, someone who doesn't want to get healthy isn't going to. A heroin addict is likely going to get worse in spite of any tongue lashing I give them.)

Further, what if I suspect they have something wrong with them that no one could make better? What about Huntington's disease or end-stage cancer? It may be that they would want to finish what remains of their lives unburdened by a diagnosis.

They may even know what they have already, and my confrontation would only remind them of a very unpleasant fact -- adding to their pain.

I feel like this is an issue that a lot of doctors and medical students struggle with. On the one hand, we have this special knowledge. We try to use that knowledge to make people better. On the other hand, this knowledge gives us a lot of access into people's private lives. People often don't want that information revealed, and particularly not paraded in front of them.

So what's the verdict? Aside from acute cases like performing CPR -- where it is obviously appropriate -- when do you think it is ethical to offer medical advice to a stranger?

purepedantry Tue, 03/31/2009 - 09:23

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MYOB! says the lawyer to the doctors

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Your main concern seems to be over whether it would be an invasion of privacy to diagnose strangers. But surely you wouldn't be interrogating them? You would simply suggest they consult their GP, right? If they want to continue the discussion with you, then they will. If they don't, well, you're not forcing it on them. Or are you worried about the minor embarrassment they might feel, that unpleasant self-conscious feeling? If so, I still don't see how this outweighs the fact that your efforts would occasionally be beneficial.

I Am Not A Physician, Or An Ethics Expert, but I'd suggest that the decision whether to speak up should at least in part weigh the probability that the problem will otherwise go undiagnosed until it progresses to a point where treatment will be difficult. As you pointed out, there's little use in approaching someone about a possible disease that can't be treated. If it's something fairly obvious, the odds are good the person either knows and isn't recieving treatment for some other reason, or will notice on their own soon enough to get timely help.

If, however, you notice something unobvious - something only a neurologist would be likely to spot, and not the patient or their regular doctor - that suggests a treatable disease for which early treatment is important, speak up! You might be doing the person a great favor.

If I were walking around with something treatable I would greatly appreciate it if passing doctors spoke up instead of just walking on by to avoid hassling me. I think the key would be just to be polite about it.

I think the other hard case is whether you might know something a GP might not. For an example, in the 1970's & 80's Tourette's Syndrome was not as well known. A child might bounce around to dozens of diagnoses, but as soon as a neurologist or someone with knowledge of Tourette's sees the child the diagnoses could sometimes be made from across a street.

The same argument could go for autism instead of mental retardation in the 1980's and earlier.

If you have specialized knowledge and think someone is misdiagnosed or not diagnosed, speaking up could completely change someone's life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7922429.stm

http://www.handresearch.com/news/handshake-diagnosed-brain-tumour.htm

Here's two links (both stories originally reported on the BBC) where patients believed that the doctor that stopped to express concerns saved their lives.

I am not a doctor, either, but I wish you doctors would speak up if you feel comfortable... You could begin with, for example, "I am a [GP, surgeon, specialist in X, etc.] and I noticed you seem to have symptoms of untreated [condition]. Have you talked about the possibility with your doctor?". You would do a lot to balance all the unqualified fools who, instead of saying, "Bless you, are you OK, here's a tissue", instead say, "You know, you should drink more water, eat [fad diet of the week], and take these obscure supplements".

Most of you doctors are very good with people, and you know how to speak with immense tact. Please be aware that there are some things that everyone can tell they suffer from. Most fat people know they're fat, for instance, and most pregnant women are already being treated by someone. One drawback of speaking up is that if you actually treat the condition, you look like you're drumming up business. That's not a terrible thing, since you are a certified expert and your diagnosis is your proof you know what you're talking about, but you don't want to be seen as an "ambulance chaser."

Interesting question. I believe that people have the right to be left the fuck alone in the absence of some emergency situation. If some random asshole walked up to me in a public place and started a conversation leading to some kind of diagnosis I would tell the motherfucker in no uncertain terms to get the fuck away from me.

Excellent item, really good people who truly believe in this solution, mainly because it supports that medicine evolved satisfactorily and helps many people with this information, since many can not visit a doctor for lack of money that the economy is much less due to across the world.

I had this dilemma just the other day and was reflecting on it. I googled to look for any journal articles about it which is when I came across this. Evry1 I ask says that they wouldn't say anything - People have a right not to know about something.
My experience is that I was just getting off the train when I noticed a dishevelled man in flip-flops who I thought may have been homeless. On closer inspection I noticed he had a large blackened toenail that showed the classic signs of melanoma - streaking of the nail as it grows over the lesion,and starting to ulcerated the nail. I thought of saying something but I just didn't know whether I should....I am also a med student so not exactly an authority. I ended up just walking away. I have since decided I should have said something but some colleagues argue that since it was ulcerating, which is a bad prognostic factor that suggests lower invasion and metastases, treatment would likely be palliative and I wasn't going to save his life anyway so he would be better off not knowing and enjoying that oblivion. But I am still sorry that I did not say anything.
I am sorry, whoever you are.

Choosing a Medical Specialty V -- Match Day!

denialism — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:15:59 +0000

Choosing a Medical Specialty V -- Match Day!

In two hours I find out where I've matched and will spend my residency. It's a special day for medical students, and may be the one day a year they really, universally cut loose. Much more than graduation, match feels like the culmination of years of hard work.

I'll put up a post at around 12 saying where I ended up. If you're curious about the process see our other posts on the match Choosing a Medical Specialty I, II, III, and IV.

denialism Thu, 03/19/2009 - 05:15

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Wasting your time

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Exciting! Congrats on making it, Mark!

Congratulations.

Update your profile.

Choosing a Medical Specialty IV -- Interviews!

denialism — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 05:00:00 +0000

Choosing a Medical Specialty IV -- Interviews!

The process of choosing a medical specialty, and applying for residency programs is nearly complete as I have returned from my tour of the West Coast and am nearly done with interview season. This is when medical students travel the country at great (and unreimbursed) expense to find their future training program. When all is said and done, all your research into programs and time spent interviewing boils down to a simple question. Do you want to work with these people for the next 3-7 years of your life?

It's also nice to see the cities where you may live and get a feel for the type of lifestyle you may enjoy. You also get to take pictures from helipads! Like this one from UNC:

And then there is the famous medical art like the Gross Clinic at Penn which also graces a common surgery text:

Or Ether Day (in the Ether Dome at MGH):

More pictures and some fun interview questions below the fold...

Here's the view of Philly from the top of Penn's hospital:

And Boston:

UCSF in beautiful San Francisco:

And the views from the Parnassus campus give you a great view of the Golden Gate Park:

OHSU in Portland has one of the most beautiful views of any hospital. It's built on the side of a hill and you take a tram up for some beautiful scenery:

And of course Seattle has the views from the Space Needle:

But it's not all fun and games. You also get subjected to grueling interviews by the hospital staff. Ok, not really. They mostly just want to get to know you, and as a result most of the interviews are informal conversations. This might have been my favorite part of the process in the end, because it was a chance to travel the country and talk to some of the brightest scientists and doctors in the country about research and medicine. As a general rule there is only one interview during the day in which they ask the "interview questions". You know them: "what is your greatest weakness?", "can you describe yourself in three words?", "why do you think you're a good candidate?", "tell me your life story." etc. Only a few questions threw me for a loop. In particular, I was once asked, "what if you fail to complete your residency?" which is of course a helluva question. Usually failure is not at the top of your thought process as you embark on a new career, but it certainly did make me think.

Luckily, I've been fortunate in that at almost all of the programs I've visited I've had very positive experiences and I'll be able to choose between many excellent programs with excellent people. I still have to make the hard choices though when I form my rank order list of the programs I want to attend in the order that I want to attend them. This data along with the program directors' match lists are put into the matching algorithm and then on Match Day (March 19th) we find out where we will spend the next chunk of our lives.

denialism Wed, 02/04/2009 - 00:00

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Duke not in the running?

Best wishes, Mark. Thanks for including the Eakins painting:I finally got to see it and the "Agnew Clinic" this past summer.

Duke is my last interview. I didn't take pics from Baltimore or Nashville either.

Dude, if you end up in Nashville, I will buy you a cup of coffee! :D

Great photo of Franklin Field in Philly!

If you end up in Baltimore, let me know... I'll buy you a cuppa. (but please don't stop blogging...)

Good luck finalizing your ROL!

Mass General has some amazing views. And after my interview day was done, I went back to the Ether Dome just to hang out for a bit. I'm also currently stressing over my rank list and anxiously awaiting March 19th. Good luck to you!

Choosing a Medical Specialty II---the view from above

sb admin — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:26:56 +0000

Choosing a Medical Specialty II---the view from above

MarkH is going through the process of deciding what to what to do when he grows up. This is a much more difficult and important decision than many may realize. In order to understand the gravity of this process, I'll have to refresh your memories a bit regarding medical education.

In the U.S., to apply for medical school, you must have completed a (usually) 4-year bachelor's degree from a university. During the final year, you take what amounts to an entrance exam (the MCAT), and send out preliminary applications (often with fees). If the schools like your preliminary applications, they will send you secondary applications which are more lengthy and involve more fees. If they like your secondary application, you will be invited for interviews. For those of you who may not be familiar with U.S. geography, this place is big---really big. When I went on my interviews, I typically crossed two or three time zones. I took the red-eye out of SFO for Washington National, leaving around 11 p.m. and arriving around 7 a.m. The process is time-consuming and expensive.

After finishing the interview process, you may or may not receive invitations to matriculate. If you don't get an offer, and you still want to become a doctor, you must repeat the entire process the next year. It is, needless to say, unwise to go through this process unless you're pretty sure you'll be happy with your decision to go to medical school.

I've always been happy with my decision---except when I haven't been. I remember one night driving home from the anatomy lab a little after midnight, looking at the Chicago skyline, wondering what it would be like to have a normal job and to go out partying in the evening instead of digging through pickled viscera. Usually, these feelings washed through me after a good night's sleep. During third and forth year of med school, a good night's sleep can be hard to find, so I frequently reminded myself that gut-wrenching regret is usually temporary.

For some people, that regret is not temporary, and the lucky ones suck it up, leave medicine, and find a career they actually enjoy. The ones who fail to make that hard decision are easy to spot because of the air of misery that surrounds them.

During the third year of medical school, usually before you've finished sampling all of the core medical specialties, you have to start the application process for residency. This involves another round of applications, interviews, etc. If you're thinking about internal medicine, you are interviewing for a three year residency spot. If you're looking at surgery, it's generally a five to seven year program. These commitments are long, so once again, you'd better choose wisely.

So how does one actually choose a medical specialty? Hopefully, during your clinical rotations, you've developed strong opinions about what you do and do not enjoy. MarkH posted some stereotypical but not unrealistic personality questions that may point folks in one direction or another. Certain specialties do attract certain personality types. But the more you know, the better your decision will be. If you're looking to get rich quick, medicine isn't for you---nothing about medical education is quick. Some specialties are certainly more lucrative than others, though. Very few primary care docs (internists, pediatricians, family docs) strike it rich. Compensation for doctors is biased toward doing rather than more intellectual endeavors. For instance, if I put a diabetic patient on an ACE-inhibitor, examine their feet, and make sure they go to the ophthalmologist, my care is likely to save their kidneys, feet, and eyesight. For this type of visit, and can expect to make about 70 bucks. If I simply clean the wax out of the patient's ears, I can make around 100 bucks instead. Preventing illness doesn't pay nearly as well as sticking a knife or a needle into someone. Because of the cost of medical education and the compensation structure, only about two percent of American medical school grads are picking a primary care specialty.

Decisions on specialties are, I suspect, made for economic reasons, but also for other good reasons. A student may have had a particularly influential mentor in surgery, for example, or may have just loved the thought process and patient interactions of internal medicine. But however the decision is made, it's another breakpoint. Choosing to go to and finish medical school is big. Choosing a medical specialty and finishing the training is bigger. It's a damned good thing I was happy with my choice---some of my friends were not, and the smart ones were willing to move on to another field or another career altogether.

My first day of internship, I showed up in my tie and new white coat, feeling appropriately nervous, but also ready. A very haggard-looking intern enveloped by a chair outside the ward, looked up at me and said, "PAL, eh? Well, you're post-call [as if I couldn't tell by how crappy he looked] so let me go over the new ones with you. Mr...aw, never mind. Here, take my cards. I'm going to bed." I took them, entered the ward, and a nurse marched up to me, grabbed my name tag, and said, "Hmm, Dr. Pal. Well, "Dr.", Mr. Z. isn't looking too good. You'd better start there, and now."

I walked into a room to find an elderly man lying in a bed with the usual assortment of tubes dripping fluid in one place, and collecting it out of another. Except his breathing wasn't normal. He would breathe rapidly, then more and more slowly and deeply, and then stop.

And then finally he would start again, at first slowly and deeply, then more quickly and more shallow, then more slowly, until he would stop again, in a pattern known as Cheyne-Stokes respiration. This was a change from earlier that morning, and we got to work trying to figure out what had changed.

I loved it. I took to medical school and residency like a fish to water (most of the time), and I was usually good at it. Now, that's not what I expect from all of my students and residents---some will like it better than others. But I hope that they are all able to make good decisions based on their talents, their financial needs, and most important, what they enjoy. With the amount of time devoted to training and to the career that follows, you'd better choose well, or you are going to be a very unhappy person.

sb admin Fri, 11/28/2008 - 07:26

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Good luck to Mark on the decision and application process! I was and am very happy with OB/GYN, the combination of some primary care with surgery and being able to share one of life's most life-changing events for families was the best one I ever made, besides marrying my husband!

I absolutely loved residency! I wish I didn't have to take a break from practicing, but in our rural area there were no other options for me. Someday...

PalMD, I love the article, it brings back memories! We did the married match, that was a bit more complicated to coordinate. I just wondered if you could correct "Cheyne-Stokes" for me, my OCD for spelling, former secretary and all ;0)

Thanks for the memories!

This sounds very familiar. The problem with medical school begins in the first year. Most of the two preclinical years have little to do with practicing medicine. Those trained in some basic science in the last several years of college realize very quickly that medicine has little to do with science or curiosity about science and/or health. It is more like elementary school for doctorsjust like you learned reading, writing and rythmatic to prepare you for middle school, and high school to learn trig, algebra and calculus. What you learn during those first two years is nomenclature, and linguisiticsmuch like any vocation which has specific terms. Lawyers learn how to speak lawyerese, computer scientists learn geekology. These first two years expand your vocabulary, which few other people can or will understand.

The second two years expose medical students to some clinical work, which they will perform only if the intern and resident are overwhelmed with their duties. If the clinical material is scarce it will be monopolized by the intern/resident. Actually the medical student rotation may bear little resemblance to the actual clinical work that a mature physician will do in his practice. Ordinary medical stuff is usually lacking in a university or tertiary medical center where formal training takes place.

So what actually occurs is that the medical student must make a choice of what he will do with very little chance to experience a specialty or general practice prior to having to select a specialty or match for postgraduate training. In addition to this major shortcoming, the free standing postgraduate year of what used to be called internship is now called pgy 0, or 1, whatever the term is these days. This is also another reason why PCP, or primary care providers are so rare. (this used to be called general practice or family practice for you really young guys.) Many young doctors used to take an internship, then go out and practice general medicine for a few years to get a real taste of what they like or dont like about each brand of medicine. Yes, Johnny it is possible to do this, and quite safely if apprenticed with an older physician. I did it in the U.S. Navy aboard a floating naval ship in the middle of a war. I was able to do so because of my strong general medicine training in med school and INTERNSHIP. This is because the internship required and demanded competency in general medical,pediatric, surgical and OB/GYN.( I and my classmates delivered over 100 babies during our senior year of med school. Those who had OB in their third year also did the same.) After the navy experience I chose to do general medicine and even became medical director of an emergency department. It was 6 years before I specialized, some by choice and others by necessity.

Early on I was not sure what I liked or disliked. The clinical part of medicine bears little if any relationship to the science of what you study in the first two years of medical school. You may love endocrinology, or cardiac physiology, but find the clinical aspects of gyn, proctology, or cardiac resuscitation, or surgery revolting. You may like ENT but the thought of treating nosebleeds at 2AM a turn off. The bread and butter of medicine has little to do with what you see or do at University Tertiary Medical School.
And you are being trained by a guy with one more year of training than you have experienced. Not only that, but he or she will be ranking you, in many cases. Those professors who run the department are off giving lectures, writing speeches, or patting some other professor from eithr your institution or another one, on the back.

Being on call every other night, or dealing with very sick patients has little resemblance in internship to practicing general medicine, pediatrics, or other specialties. The journey through med school and internship may be more a journey of avoidance rather than seeking fulfillment.

Sometimes doctors near or at the end of their formal training are uncomfortable entering the real world. Some chose to go on because of this and subspecialize, some even do multiple fellowships, in neurology, ophthalmology, oculoplastic surgery or other areas.

Some even decide to avoid real medicine by becoming academicians. (which is another whole story on dysfunctional adult behavior)

When you reach the pinnacle of success in your own practice and look outward at your colleagues you will find clusters of physicians in a group who trained at one particular institution or anotherthe Harvard guys, the Yale guys, the UCLA guysall self selected into their own tier. My experience is that they are neither smarter or dumber that the rest. Only the patients think that is really important. I often times would have to bail them out or show them some ordinary thing that they never saw at the IVORY tower university. Perhaps they saw 100 cases of Sarcoid or Wegeners granulomatosis, but never managed an Alzheimer patient, or chronic congestive heart failure,nor managed a new diabetic that was not in severe ketoacidosis

So all you say is spot on, except you left out a lot more.

That was quite an insightful post by 'Anonymous'. Thanks.

"For instance, if I put a diabetic patient on an ACE-inhibitor, examine their feet, and make sure they go to the ophthalmologist, my care is likely to save their kidneys, feet, and eyesight. For this type of visit, and can expect to make about 70 bucks. If I simply clean the wax out of the patient's ears, I can make around 100 bucks instead. Preventing illness doesn't pay nearly as well as sticking a knife or a needle into someone."

Are the policymakers doing anything about this illogical pay-structure?

http://jfcshow.com - Great satirical cartoon about Jesus returning to live in the modern world

When checking out med school, this looks like an awesome place to begin your academic program! The True Blue Campus at St. Georges University. http://www.sgu.edu/som/campus-facilities.html

Medical students improve their listening skills using their iPods

purepedantry — Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:35:39 +0000

Medical students improve their listening skills using their iPods

This is absolutely ingenious:

Patients rely on their physicians to recognize signs of trouble, yet for common heart murmurs, that ability is only fair at best. Fortunately, the solution is simple: listening repeatedly. In fact, intensive repetition -- listening at least 400 times to each heart sound -- significantly improved the stethoscope abilities of doctors, according to a study presented today at the American College of Cardiology's annual meeting.

After demonstrating last year that medical students greatly improved their stethoscope skills by listening repeatedly to heart sounds on their iPods, lead investigator Michael Barrett, M.D., clinical associate professor of medicine and cardiologist at Temple University School of Medicine and Hospital, set out to test the technique on practicing physicians.
During a single 90-minute session, 149 general internists listened 400 times to five common heart murmurs including aortic stenosis, aortic regurgitation, mitral stenosis, mitral regurgitation and innocent systolic murmur. Previous studies have found the average rate of correct heart sound identification in physicians is 40 percent. After the session, the average improved to 80 percent.

Proficiency with a stethoscope -- and the ability to recognize abnormal heart sounds -- is a critical skill for identifying dangerous heart conditions and minimizing dependence on expensive medical tests.

"It's important to know when to order a costly echocardiogram or stress test," said Barrett. "Plus, internists are now tested on this skill for board recertification. Requirements for residents and other specialists are sure to follow."

Listening to the heart, known as cardiac auscultation, is, Barrett believes, a technical skill and therefore best learned through intensive drilling and repetition, not by traditional methods, usually a classroom lecture or demonstration in medical school and then on the job.

"You don't build this proficiency by osmosis," Barrett said. (Emphasis mine.)

Auscultation -- or listening to the heart or lungs or bowels with a stethoscope -- is one of the most important skills that medical students and young doctors learn. It's cheap, it's quick, and if the person knows what they are doing it is better than a CT or an MRI.

It is also one of the hardest skills to learn. One of the problems is that it takes a lot of practice. The other is that -- as any medical student will tell you -- it is fine and good to be able to listen in a closed room with no other ambient sounds. It is another matter entirely to listen to someone's heart in a ward filled with shouting people.

Anyway, I think this is just genius. I would even go one step farther. Listen to your iPod on the subway or on the way to work. It will get you used to tuning out ambient noise while you listen.

Here are some sample sounds from the press release (mp3 files all):

Normal heart -- the first bump is the mitral and tricuspid valves closing, the second is the aortic and pulmonic valves closing, the time in between the two is systole (ventricular contraction), the other time is diastole (artial contraction)

Heart murmur -- I am going to get totally screwed by this, I can feel it, but I am pretty certain that this is a pansystolic murmur suggestive of mitral regurgitation (among other things). We'll how long it takes someone to tell me I am wrong...

Heart lesson -- Here is an example of one of the lessons narrated by Barrett.

You can get the full set of mp3s here.

An excellent article on heart murmurs is available on wikipedia.

purepedantry Mon, 03/26/2007 - 04:35

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Medicine

Furthermore, after a few run listening to an ordered playlist, where you know what condition you are listening to, students should put the playlist on random and try to guess what they are listening to.