Sex Discrimination https://scienceblogs.com/ en Things Are Getting Better All The Time... https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/06/27/things-are-getting-better-all <span>Things Are Getting Better All The Time...</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://science-professor.blogspot.com/2010/06/fsp-check-list.html">Female Science Professor has posted a checklist</a> - "Kind of like Sexism Bingo, but in list form." - and asked for additions. </p> <p>I was going to offer a few additions, but I thought "all that crap happened a thousand years ago, when I was an undergrad/grad student. I'll just read this list of new stuff to see what teh wimminz are whining about these days." Because <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/06/an_explanatory_note.php">things are getting better all the time</a>. </p> <p><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/01695509619557410413">Alyssa</a> at 6/17/2010 10:03:00 AM said:</p> <blockquote><p>Someone asks why you bothered getting a PhD if you're "just going to have children"</p></blockquote> <p>and DRo at 6/17/2010 10:36:00 AM said:</p> <blockquote><p>You are told that you won't be interested in a TT position once you have children.</p></blockquote> <p>Time machine, take us to.....1984! Hello, classmate! Hello, undergrad thesis advisor! </p> <p>Anonymous at 6/17/2010 12:16:00 PM said:</p> <blockquote><p>Someone tells you not to talk about women or minority in science issues because it makes people think you are not committed to science.</p></blockquote> <p>Time machine, take us to...1988! Hello, thesis committee member! (And major thanks to all of you for that 4.5 hour prelim, in complete violation of university policy, while I'm back here visiting!)</p> <p>Anonymous at 6/17/2010 12:40:00 PM said:</p> <blockquote><p>** When you are in YOUR OWN office, visitors assume you are an administrative assistant **</p> <p>and then, when you point out that you are not the admin, are told "Oh, you must be the student worker, then!"</p></blockquote> <p>Time machine, take us to...1999! Hello, various random d00dches! </p> <p>Anonymous at 6/17/2010 03:12:00 PM said:</p> <blockquote><p>One of my personal favorites from my graduate school was a comment by a faculty member meant as a compliment, at a reception, "Surely, you're not a physicist". "Surely, I am" I said.</p></blockquote> <p>Time machine, take us to...the entire decade of the 1980's! Hello, every pickup artist and sad sack conference fuckwit who thought "you're too pretty to be an engineer!" was a great come-on line. </p> <p><a href="http://rachelshadoan.com/">Rachael Shadoan</a> at 6/18/2010 06:58:00 AM said:</p> <blockquote><p>I feel that the more we focus on this kind of thing, the more discouraging it is for young women trying to join the field.</p></blockquote> <p>and at 6/18/2010 10:02:00 AM</p> <blockquote><p>Instead of long lists of how we're under-appreciated and gender-stereotyped and in general discriminated against, I would like to see lists of creative, professional, appropriate ways to handle some of these situations.</p> <p>Then, it's less depressing because it provides the tools to handle this sort of thing. Over time (presumably), if we all use the tools to address these issues, they will decrease in number and severity.</p></blockquote> <p>Time machine, take us to...1989! Hello, contentious discussion at AWIS meeting where I was invited to speak about gender and science! </p> <p>On second thought, time machine, never mind. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Sun, 06/27/2010 - 12:10</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/blog-i-am-reading-today" hreflang="en">Blog I Am Reading Today</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/daily-struggles" hreflang="en">Daily Struggles</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/isnt-it-ironic" hreflang="en">Isn&#039;t It Ironic?</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/naming-experience" hreflang="en">Naming Experience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/what-theyre-saying" hreflang="en">What They&#039;re Saying</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/why-there-are-no-women-science" hreflang="en">Why There Are No Women in Science</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313956" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277656479"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>About the last one: yeah, those lists are the problem. Certainly not experiencing the stuff on those lists.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313956&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f2OYR6JSywC8tsvwoPtPT3-nsN7V8Nyfx1Izhl-y0bU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shearsensibility.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kim (not verified)</a> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313956">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313957" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277657418"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I hadn't looked at the list since I left my comment....</p> <p>I have to say I am bit depressed about how much hasn't changed. Not to say that improvements haven't come along...but its still depressing to see how far we still have to go.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313957&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JvO1_02r2U4gdlCjjDuajuAuTDqPvvwieVWiRrpu11o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scientistmother.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ScientistMother (not verified)</a> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313957">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313958" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277659491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>there are no specific canned solutions because the problems are institutionalized. what may work at one school for one woman may not work for another woman. what may work for a woman at one school may not work at another school. each place has their own dynamics.</p> <p>i went down the list checkity check checking off my own experiences, and had i been in a position of power to counter the many shitty things said and done to me over the years, it would have reflected negatively on me, how dare i speak up! the things that happen to women one-at-a-time essentially happen in a vacuum. the events get swept up and disappear because it is one woman here, one woman there, another woman last year, another women 10 years ago. women are silenced not only because of repercussions to their careers from speaking up, but by being held to such a slim minority in their departments and societies where their voices don't count. the shitty events are labeled as "personal" and "she's the problem" which prevents larger scale changes for women. </p> <p>my solutions: avoid asshats. find women who are not d00d-apologists. share your experiences if you feel comfortable doing so. support women coming up the line.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313958&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8KhyzR9X2aGKqRNo-DpBkLltwaiygl1VIGe95CjHhhQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313958">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313959" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277660267"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I felt like doing something was out of the question for awhile (though my job isn't much like the engineers and scientists here). I read a post on shapely prose titled "cha-cha-cha-chaka chubby" and I got my mind changed a bit. I don't want to link because it makes comments get stuck in the filter sometimes, but if you search for the quoted text it will be the first thing in google. Here is a little bit of it:</p> <blockquote><p>I donât seek to win hearts and minds. Thatâs not my style and besides, they are way better folks for that job. I donât care what people think as long as it doesnât blow up my spot or the spots of others dealing with oppressions. What I care about is behavior. My activism seeks to make it unpleasant and EMBARRASSING and EXPENSIVE to engage in fuckery. My style of activism â whether it pertains to fat or other -isms â seeks to cause folks tremendous shame and discomfort so they STOP ENGAGING IN THE BEHAVIOR and pressure others to do the same. Thatâs why Iâm nasty when I smack down acts of -ism fuckery. Iâm not trying to get folks to âembrace a diverse range of voicesâ â Iâm way too pragmatic for that â Iâm just trying to get them to STOP WHATEVER FUCKERY THEY ARE DOING, hopefully embarrassing them and causing others to give it serious thought before engaging in similar behavior.</p></blockquote> <p>I have adhered fully to this school of thought since reading snarky's post. Pragmatism, folks. Make it hell to do this kind of crap to you, it inspires other people to not put up with it either, and after awhile every woman is the one you don't want to belittle because it is a lot of trouble to do that. Make it hell to belittle other women in front of you, or for racist or classist comments to go by unchallenged. She has a bunch of stories in the post about doing this in her personal life. The more of the trouble makers that exist out in the world, the better. It won't be possible to expect women to shut up about discrimination if there are enough loud ones out there to make it normal to be angry about unfair treatment. </p> <p>I know that this isn't everyones style and I wouldn't ever be harsh on anyone for not wanting to do this, but I just wanted to toss it out there for anyone who might get inspired like I did.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313959&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1IJEcSDnsm0iGmRx5hctS5fAEV0z8386wRwKGqFam2U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogpsot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313959">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313960" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277662526"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kick them in the n*ts.</p> <p>Hey, it's a start anyway...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313960&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3fOMkcRiRU-F4ZSsl6L04l_GprBGb2i1jX77WQ1FG78"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Janice in Toronto (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313960">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313961" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277664537"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hear, hear. A big factor in the long term lack of change is our past unwillingness to speak up. Twenty five years ago, I was a demure and charming young lady, who let everything slip by. Now I had real motivations for behaving that way ... complaining would have totally ruined my life at the start, no questions. Now, however, the dynamics have changed. </p> <p>I have been reading about Humans Rights issues, and am slowly coming to the opinion that the discrimination laws (in many developed countries) apply to pretty much every woman in the physical sciences (where the percentages of women are still well under 10%). Class action, anyone?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313961&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WmIiicZ1BDjocWfL-jqC-rNlqyU2YchDZHWCIipFeoQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313961">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313962" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277672635"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I would like to see lists of creative, professional, appropriate ways to handle some of these situations.</i></p> <p><i>Then, it's less depressing because it provides the tools to handle this sort of thing.</i></p> <p>Sweet pea. </p> <p>Saying this stuff out loud lets other women know <i>they're not the only ones dealing with this shit.</i></p> <p>Because you know what? There IS NO tool to "handle this sort of thing". </p> <p>I know you want one. I know you want to believe that if you just do everything *right*, you'll outwit the system. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But forewarned is forearmed. It's also useful knowledge when the system is trying to pit us against each other because <i><b>there can be only one</b></i>. </p> <p>We play the game their way, we lose unless we're the token, and even then we lose eventually and it doesn't matter how *perfect* we are. We play the game our way, we lose, but we have our self-respect.</p> <p>We can do a little system outwitting, but overall we just don't have that much control over the whole shiteree. All we can control is our own self-esteem, and knowing we're not alone helps a lot. The lists of things to try are great, but they're not enough on their own.</p> <p>There's been slow progress, there will be more. But ignoring the bullshit doesn't make it go away.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313962&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QoKnlhlmY_RuagS6GoUGkqBqc_gHF_9ghUyrvYaTaCE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313962">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313963" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277680644"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Amen, Cara.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313963&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u6bzfRWQ_NwM0Wcp1ugvvXCS39fP686iusStaoQtxNo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313963">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313964" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277684765"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Someone asks why you bothered getting a PhD if you're "just going to have children""</p> <p>I have said this but my line of thinking was "It seems strange that she would work so hard and accomplish so much just to give it up to be a stay-at-home mom?".</p> <p>Nothing wrong with having children or being a stay at home mom, but neither requires thousands and thousands of dollars of education to do them. Clearly these women had a change of heart and chose to stay at home and everyone should be able to choose to do what they wish with their lives, but I still think it is a shame that they are not putting their education to use (this goes for anyone who isn't using their education).</p> <p>I must be blindly hopeful for believing this, but I really am optimistic that my generation (high school class of 2001) will treat women far differently when we are in our 60's/70's/80's than the current legion of white male 60/70/80 yr olds out there in the science world. This is especially true in the medical world where...<br /> "...women were 9% of total US medical school enrollment in 1969; this had increased to 20% in 1976...In 2007-2008, women accounted for 49% of medical school applicants and 48.3% of those accepted."<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_medicine">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_medicine</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313964&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nZz4P2Dg06vwHJVY4UeGC7LGG3-m26tg5_13dh5Ka0I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313964">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313965" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277686295"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Clearly these women had a change of heart"</p> <p>clearly, ROFLMAO.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313965&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uJ_DRMRFXg6R2MSdDQD3OcwsLAaME9WpaZG1dMkN34U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 27 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313965">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313966" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277703769"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh god. Reading this caused a flashback to 1976, the World Science Fiction convention in KC MO. "Are you going to college to get your MRS. degree?" the guy asked me.</p> <p>Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313966&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NNVBcU_1ZWq2LtJcM1iYNXlmtaHHShzj7yEGZA09XwE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NancyNew (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313966">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313967" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277704790"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thegoodman, please.</p> <p>It would appear the you missed that whole bit (okay, actually an ENTIRE FOUR PART SERIES right here at TSZ) about "work-life balance for women in science* a few days back?</p> <p>I highly encourage you to read those posts and their comments too. You might just begin to understand why the silly ladiez might waste their expensive educations and spend their time doing something any stoopid poor woman could do. Silly ladiez.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313967&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DVvFzXO14kshHqRyreDhbnjdxzmjccOu6hsZ24dnUIE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sargassosea (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313967">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313968" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277705517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I still think it is a shame that they are not putting their education to use</i></p> <p>Yes, because any uneducated schlub can be a <i>parent</i>, for god's sake! Don't waste an education on raising the next generation of decent human beings!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313968&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jaud0rZc74LMVKSsPU8REO4jJwm7dWUdJzWyKtUhesE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">tinfoil hattie (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313968">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313969" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277705963"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jesus. Thegoodman said he is HOPEFUL that in just 40 to 60 years, men will treat women differently. And I think it should be obvious he will be part of this fantastic social transformation. Things truly are, or will be shortly, getting better all the time. What else do you ladies want?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313969&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="St0lafy6Vxpd_fb93MvwqeHlTVfQg_E6M3ZKRyXYSRU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dick (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313969">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313970" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277711959"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>...think it is a shame that they are not putting their education to use</p></blockquote> <p>How the H do you know what exactly "they" are doing?!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313970&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TtrFg1iGMEVwL0YcMLNt0xjxYKDtYAYq4dS-PUXFQHw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://highway8a.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Silver Fox (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313970">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313971" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277713361"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, I think TheGoodMan missed the point. The problem is the assumption that any woman pursuing an education is probably going to "waste" it in the end by "just" becoming a parent. So there's two problems: one is assuming that all women will become mothers and that this compromises their ability to work (do all men become fathers? how does that affect their ability to work?); two, there's the assumption that being a parent -- ahem, a stay-at-home mom -- is a job that requires little education, and that the money and time spent on a science education would therefore be a "waste."</p> <p>Anecdata here, but my mother, Ph.D. in immunology, stayed at home and unschooled my brother and me, and her passion for inquiry, her intelligence, and the training she had in school and in the lab were incredible forces in our youth. She really enjoyed those days of exploration and investigation, and now she's built a new career for herself in health care (albeit no longer in the lab) and is very happy.</p> <p>Another anecdote, from my art school background, is the professor who told me that he was concerned that if I took a few years off before grad school to fix up a house to sell and pursue a public access tv job that I would "stagnate." Meanwhile, my male classmates had vague plans of living in Brooklyn and trying to "make it" in the film industry while working as Apple geniuses. I thought my plan showed more foresight and organization, but the problem was, it wasn't focused entirely on my career. Women cannot have lives if they are going to succeed! They must devote themselves 120% to their careers or stagnate forever (see Janet Neapolitano and the comments made about her). Hence, women who are mothers <i>will</i> leave science. </p> <p>None of these assumptions hold true for men. And that is a huge part of the problem.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313971&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vA6hMu1gDSVz3Z9qeB5yppKkyL-XiLtEt1500tEcn8M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313971">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313972" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277721117"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My mom's brief stint in college made a world of difference in what I learned from her. It struck me last year when I saw a mom with her kids at the pharmacy- I thought "wow, moms are less likely to be educated and teach the most to the next generation. What a foolish thing for society to do to children." All of us are connected and live in this world together- shitty parenting doesn't happen in a vacuum. People who are made ignorant grow up and do things like vote in elections.</p> <p>I remember my mom talking to me about some of the other moms she knew-she was shocked at the way they just made up answers when their kids had questions about the world. It was so their kids would stop bothering em ("because I said so" kind of shit). My mom made a point of answering honestly and actually explaining the things she did understand. What she learned was passed on to me. It wasn't wasted at all, it is just that value is currently measured in profit rather than actual benefit to anyone.</p> <p>The positive effect on society from educating women is well documented. Women who are educated are less likely to deal with poverty and are more likely to plan their families.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313972&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Dyd7f6ow7sR03M8UIgfIkuhkbWJg7t4zSkDxCEXxVeY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313972">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313973" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277727862"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pile of rocks + Shit for brains = Da Goodman</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313973&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RC3JxUI9vSOC1uQE4XfI6aUdH0M5tjP6OcIFNlQtysM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">veganrampage (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313973">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313974" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277733832"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Skeptifem: you mean women who get an education put off making babies like God wants them to? How do they manage it -- through the Pill and abortion? We must keep women from getting educated.</p> <p>Sarcasm aside, isn't that exactly what people thought, oh, back in 1850?</p> <p>I'm trying to recall where I read a study that showed that couples in which one or both of the partners had had a pregnancy terminated actually ended up with much more intact and functional families than families without access to abortion. Family planning actually leads to more of the stable, two-parent homes that conservative Christians love. As does education.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313974&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WCgUpVnmEc6LCcgA09nWtCtacaGyGpVeXUv1FQhPQ4I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313974">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313975" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277740013"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"The problem is the assumption that any woman pursuing an education is probably going to "waste" it in the end by "just" becoming a parent."</p> <p>I didn't miss this point. The people who say that are morons. That isn't what I said nor is it what I was talking about.</p> <p>Your reactions are odd and I am thoroughly confused. My post was a reaction to an educated woman electing to stop her career to raise children. I agree with Skeptifem that education is great for society and the more people that receive it, the better.</p> <p>Women (and all people) are capable of raising children as well as working. Wasn't this a feminism staple during the earlier feminism movements?</p> <p>So you are saying that women should stay home to raise children? Why can't they work AND raise children?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313975&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7E4uKKJiWEPVQE8rKvOVncjQSMWQbqKs9PNMR-FGqoQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313975">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313976" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277740409"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Silver Fox<br /> "How the H do you know what exactly "they" are doing?!"</p> <p>Stay-at-home parents are doing the exact same thing that working parents are doing, except they are not generating an income simultaneously. They spend a little more time with their children before they reach the age of 5, but other than that their role is that of any parent.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313976&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TNLE4ZFUx29yeC2E8OK7u0En8pXVTLBKhp4r2T7ayQU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313976">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313977" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277742193"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, goodd00d, now you've stepped in it for sure. Stay-at-home parents aren't generating an income? You mean to say: they aren't getting paid for their labor. And: their labor is making possible the labor of all those paid workers out in the wage economy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313977&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TFmyRXRjOJRsLfFM_3cPkFTKTz5Rs0aDl_s4A-7FrtM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313977">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313978" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277743299"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>My post was a reaction to an educated woman electing to stop her career to raise children.</i></p> <p>But no one else was talking about that scenario. The topic was women who are <i>not</i> leaving their careers/education but are continuously <i>presumed to be planning to do so.</i></p> <p>Even if we were talking about a woman who decided to raise her children instead of continuing on a career path, your response was lacking in several respects. You wrote:</p> <p><i>"Someone asks why you bothered getting a PhD if you're "just going to have children""</i></p> <p>I have said this but my line of thinking was "It seems strange that she would work so hard and accomplish so much <b>just to give it up to be a stay-at-home mom?</b>".</p> <p>Nothing wrong with having children or being a stay at home mom, but <b>neither requires thousands and thousands of dollars of education to do them</b>. Clearly these women had a change of heart and chose to stay at home and everyone should be able to choose to do what they wish with their lives, but <b>I still think it is a shame that they are not putting their education to use</b> (this goes for anyone who isn't using their education).</p> <p>We were not advocating that women should not work *and* raise children. We were responding to your statements that denied the value of education for women who are stay-at-home moms -- saying that it is "a shame" if a woman decides to focus on raising children.</p> <p>You're always so eager to judge the life-choices of others. It's getting really, really tedious, combined with your inability to track the dialogue and unpack the logical analysis of the problems with your posts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313978&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1eQClIY24l76MK4-C0L-Q-PokuvGnGM2S_jOm13oTnQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313978">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313979" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277743435"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Html fail, that whole quote with the bold bits is TheGoodD00d verbatim. Sorry about the confusion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313979&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0N-JcM7xcBq2PIHbi13jN2v4W6NU2uCyCVqlsw3vsXc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313979">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313980" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277744202"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I didn't miss this point. The people who say that are morons. That isn't what I said nor is it what I was talking about."</p> <p>But what you are talking about is very clearly painfully obviously not what everyone else is talking about, hence why people pointed it out to you. Presuming you merely made a mistake and overlooked the main point is being kind to you. The other option is that you're behaving this way deliberately.</p> <p>You are certainly very painfully confused if you think this discussion is about anything other than the impact of institutional, structural and societal factors on the career and family dynamics of professional and academic women.</p> <p>So the question to you is: why the fuck should anyone else care what you have to say? If you can't have the decency to join in the conversation that EVERYONE ELSE is having then please shut up and piss off.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313980&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5b0yQ5fQ2z4i9dgUraZORDhOn9eKmsryAvot2RwwEj8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dedj (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313980">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313981" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277746304"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Currently, people cannot realistically devote themselves equally to career and family. All the expectations of what makes someone serious about their career were formed when having a wife at home to do the domestic work was normal for working men. Dealing with taking care of children interferes with having a career. It isn't because there is anything wrong with taking care of children, it is because of the way the economic system was engineered. </p> <p>And yes, I think that domestic work should provide a living wage for the people doing it, especially people raising kids.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313981&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f3EHL5opbRH1lWaexINtWeEUKksRa8KnkQZTzMXJnuM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313981">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313982" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277750688"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Nothing wrong with having children or being a stay at home mom, but neither requires thousands and thousands of dollars of education to do them. Clearly these women had a change of heart and chose to stay at home and everyone should be able to choose to do what they wish with their lives, but I still think it is a shame that they are not putting their education to use (this goes for anyone who isn't using their education).</i></p> <p>Will you PLEASE go fuck yourself, you little twerp?</p> <p>An education is never wasted. Your parents should have drummed that into your little pea brain.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313982&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YJVMSnSem2F-csOxL0RxOztm85KRClsGNB2gQVux6DU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313982">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313983" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277756212"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"But no one else was talking about that scenario"</p> <p>True, but the discussion was very similar to it. I actually thought that the idea of a working mother was in-line with feminism ideals and thought I might for once befriend a Zuskateer.</p> <p>I don't think it is a shame if women don't use their education. I think it is a shame if any person doesn't use their education. If a person doesn't want to use the education someone somewhere paid for, they should just not get the education. If they have a thirst for knowledge they don't intend on using productively, they can get that knowledge via the thousands of resources available to them. Getting your Ph.D. shouldn't be a hobby.</p> <p>Its possible that drowning in my own student loan debt has given me a very negative view on the price of an education.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313983&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j5zzAUQOVCZ8jZu0DouArxhHQepQFPfzXpAmi1OepF0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313983">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313984" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277761982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Getting your Ph.D. shouldn't be a hobby. Its possible that drowning in my own student loan debt has given me a very negative view on the price of an education."</p> <p>Clearly you know nothing about getting a Ph.D.</p> <p>Most of us are working a grueling schedule as a Teaching Assistant, Research Assistant, or BOTH in addition to our coursework. I will have absolutely no student loans from my Ph.D., but I will have spent 6+ years working 40-80 hrs. a week while putting up with more-than-tolerable amounts of b.s. on an almost daily basis. Hobby?? *snort* Please, I haven't become that deluded...</p> <p>(So, after all that, when I do get my Ph.D., I'll damn well do whatever I want to do afterwards. )</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313984&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wJJ_HbRIiK00n3qSRRomaGJkoq1OcHdu2N5zC1wnW18"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sara (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313984">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313985" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277762830"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am not working in some kind of grueling coursework, so I am not "most of us", I guess. What happened to me was that I never imagined I could be a college graduate or learn the sciences/maths (mostly because of being a woman in this culture), and I ended up doing some college courses because it was financially possible for once. I learned how much bs you have to go through to get the lowest of college achievement: an associates degree. I was helped a lot by my chemistry and math courses (though I did self teach most of that shit). A good example of how intolerable everything became is my first english class. I had to learn about all the various forms of citation, and that bullshit took up the majority of the course work for the semester. This wasn't about english or writing- it was instruction to show that you had been to college, period. It was even more snobbish in that learning the preferred citation method for your major was something that would be important from that point on. Footnoting accomplishes absolutely everything meant to be contained in the different (and completely ARBITRARY) citation styles. I can't deal with it. I don't know how much college I can realistically take as a result. Noam Chomsky wrote about how there were social programs available for new ivy league college professors that teach things like what wines to drink and how to taste em. The shit just builds up thicker from this point on, and I am not sure that it is really for me anymore. I am not going to quit learning- I learn about math and science in my free time, without the credit. The awarding of certificates for doing so is so much more about conformity than learning that I am unwilling to do much more of it. I am happy learning without a GPA or deadline for understanding the material.</p> <p>I am attempting to unionize my work place. I don't know if moving up the latter is worth a damn. This is the kind of thing that matters to me now.</p> <p>I kinda wanted to vent because I am commenting and conversing with all these women with extraordinary training in their fields and I am pretty out of place when it comes down to it. That kind of work used to be my ambition but I don't think it is realistic or worthwhile anymore. Convince me otherwise lady scientists/engineers/students, I am open to listening.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313985&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2KchwFqm056A-rGACYXDJpXTw3V8NjYrfjDBUAdN5MA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313985">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313986" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277773399"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I think it is a shame if any person doesn't use their education. If a person doesn't want to use the education someone somewhere paid for, they should just not get the education.</i></p> <p>Why don't you go troll somewhere else? What do you get out of showing up here and saying nothing but stupid shit? Are your little Cheeto-eating cohorts egging you on or something?</p> <p>Only a complete moron holds the view that an education is "wasted" or "unused" if you're not slotted into a proper yuppified cubicle upon getting the piece of paper.</p> <p>It's one thing to think that about one's OWN life. It's quite another to show up, again, spouting off about what some random strawwomen should do with their lives in order to be living as Prince Poopoo decrees.</p> <p>Jeeezus. You can't STOP trying to tell women you don't even know how to live, can you, you little dork. Go straighten out your inflatable "wife" and leave the grownups to talk.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313986&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TdFmgpsXjHX_7g2tJsgTLcOAyZDYdzkYo66UxIQXBd0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 28 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313986">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313987" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277784706"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Skeptifem, Comrade, Sara, Dedj and Cara: You win some kind of award for sheer patience and persistence in your attempt to educate the profoundly misguided. I'd bake you all cookies if I could. </p> <p>[anecdote] I had this ex-boyfriend who was real pretty. Really pretty, the kind your mother meets and says, "Oh dear, hang on to him, he's a <i>catch</i>" while imagining adorable curly-haired blue-eyed moppets. The kind you can hardly take anywhere without women and gay men flirting with him all night, that lovely. And he was dumb as a brick. Yet he would talk, incessantly, whether you wanted him to or not, about the most inane shit ever been spouted in the history of the 'verse: how they should have a penguin-based marketing campaign at McDonald's, how there was a special way to fold socks just so, how omelets were meant to be folded in <i>thirds,</i> not <i>halves</i> gawddammit.</p> <p>One day, we were visiting one of my friends, a musician who happened to be going for her MA in film history and preservation. Friend and I were discussing Italian cinema, as I (and Pretty Dumb) had just watched several Fellini movies, and we were talking about the use of surrealism in lieu of scoring and effects to draw attention to plot points. Pretty Dumb looks up from his tuneless meanderings on friend's guitar and contributes to the conversation, a propos of nothing, "I liked Ed Wood." Friend and I waited for a minute to see if there'd be anything else, then she kindly said, "Oh...yes, some directors really liked to get everything the way they wanted in one take, and the results are fun to watch." He corrected her with the utmost contempt: "Not the ACTUAL Ed Wood, my gawd, who would want to watch that--no, the Johnny Depp one! Tch!" [/anecdote]</p> <p>I hope Pretty Dumb has since found some lady who appreciates his, his...well, I hope he's happy. But honestly, with people like that, is there any point to trying to argue? Why not just say "thank you for sharing your worthless, unfounded opinion"? Why say anything at all, really?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313987&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vFZGs3JF31d6y-fmi-LmUeok7YVP3z3j0zXuL8UMbhw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Big Blue (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313987">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313988" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277789084"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks for the amusing anecdote, Big Blue, and I'm glad that you're no longer putting up with Pretty Dumb's malapropisms.</p> <p>Skeptifem, I don't have any advice, since I'm not in a STEM field, but I do have to agree that I was pretty frustrated when I found out that I'd spent 6 years in college learning MLA citation format (and tutoring it) and I'd never been taught how to do the kind of footnote that I'll actually use professionally and in grad school. I actually loved MLA citations because the precision made me happy; but I don't love any elaborate system that is actually worthless. Sigh.</p> <p>Best of luck to you in your endeavors, whatever direction they take you!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313988&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9i9n3gaVw3Ia5ibyVyX28a9M0dHr7H553Su_taTbHjM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313988">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313989" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277799169"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One thing I wonder about those who talk about women wasting their education by staying home with the children, is whether they've thought about the monetary issues and other underlying sexist problems that still cause women to be the ones who primarily stay home with the kids. </p> <p>Women still, to my knowledge, make only approx. 3/4 of the money that men do, when working the same job. Daycare is also prohibitively expensive. A decent daycare center in my area is $250.00 per week, and a good private/home daycare is around $200.00 per week... *per child*. Now, unless you make enough money to spend $12,000 per year on daycare, one of you has to stay home during the day (maybe work nights or do night school?). And assuming you have jobs at a similar pay level, who is more likely to stay at home right now? The one making *less* money? I doubt it, unless there's a pretty strong motivation to do otherwise. So it's a bit of a self-perpetuating cycle here. Women make less money, with employers using the excuse that 'women are going to have kids at some point and be gone at least 6 weeks and might stay home! So let's pay them less!' And so, it's the women who stay home because they get paid less. </p> <p>I may be way off in my assessment there, and obviously not every heterosexual couple with kids have similar jobs or payscales in their jobs. I know there are obviously other exceptions as well, since I make more money then my husband because after he got laid off he had to work retail. And thus, after I had our daughter he stayed home with her for two years. But if there is anyone to blame for women "allowing" a degree to go wasted, it seems as though it's the fault of employers and those who stay quiet about wage disparity issues (as a start). They perpetuate the cycle by making sexist assumptions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313989&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7HlvHQjjo18KyDybRp0pHUqFJVHAHBMxt83tuCe9kDg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cubefarmed (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313989">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313990" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277802592"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was laughing so hard at those unpredictable wimmenz with Ph.D.s "electing" to stay home FOREVERS, wasting their expensive educations, throwing it away on a mere whim and fancy, that I almost forgot to post:</p> <p>Most women I know who have Ph.D.s who do stay home with their kids (and they don't all do), do it for the wage-related and sexist-related reasons cubefarmed listed (or they simply don't question the fact that they are the ones who *must* stay home and the babydaddy staying home with the baby is not even an option in their minds) and then, when said kids are grown up enough, they get BACK into the workforce and start using that ole education again.</p> <p>What a waste, eh?</p> <p>Skeptifem, I had to take an entire semester worth of learning to do references (Harvard-style for us here), although in my personal case it was very beneficial. Even though I KNEW it'd be beneficial to me (especially post-grad - the course I did was geared specifically towards the post-grad style requirements, implementing them undergrad as well), it was STILL torture, so I can't imagine how mindnumbing that must have been.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313990&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wZPrN-LvtbAgc8qJmCDk9im1o0PLAMTpFhLte_ou0UU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://deficiomens.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DeviantOne (not verified)</a> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313990">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313991" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277806455"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>and then, when said kids are grown up enough, they get BACK into the workforce and start using that ole education again</i></p> <p>Yes indeed. The vast majority of stay-at-home-moms stay home for no more than 18 years, and many for even less (many return to the workforce after only 5 or 6 years, once their kids go to school).</p> <p>So the degrees are not going to waste, but from the point of view of employers, someone who has been out of the field for years is a liability (one reason my mom didn't return to lab work). And that's part of the problem.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313991&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yAefKOM8v290A_1-KrCKhiBx878XMrodHWMR-XcgjPY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313991">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313992" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277807728"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re: dealing with citations</p> <p>I am a writer of sci-fi and fantasy who got my BA in Linguistics and then thought long and hard about going further. I love the sciences, took chem classes for fun, and generally think Kuhn is misused by people in the Humanities, but that's about as far as I've gotten with STEM so far. </p> <p>But I totally get where you're coming from with the copyediting bullshit (and citation notation is copyediting -it has NOTHING to do with how good your science chops are). Recognize that this is a silencing technique. All prescriptivism is a form of silencing. </p> <p>It was bad enough for me that I got a certificate in editing just so I could combat the voices of prescriptivists who fucked with my writing. That's my strategy: beat 'em at their own game, become the authority and then use that power for good. </p> <p>What I did about the citation thing was to create a script that puts citation information into different formats. They want APA? Cool. Click button. MLA? No problem. Click 'nother button. CMS? Well at least they've got some fucking style. Click the big button with the gold stars 'cause CMS rulez. And if they want to tell me my ideas are shit because I didn't put the period in the right place? Well, I wish there was a button I could click for that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313992&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jpZQqR-NrabN0lsUt6teulOHZdDLoilqRDx-6css83E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Yvonne (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313992">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313993" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277818718"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I hope Pretty Dumb has since found some lady who appreciates his, his...well, I hope he's happy. But honestly, with people like that, is there any point to trying to argue? Why not just say "thank you for sharing your worthless, unfounded opinion"? Why say anything at all, really?</i></p> <p>Well, largely because stupid shit is said constantly, and if we allow stupid shit to stand (out of boredom or 'politeness' or a misguided sense that we're shaming those who spout nonsense), then stupid shit is given equal weight in the conversation. And, as the poets say, fuck that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313993&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NMOYBr2_-cEXyCKvbzxU_9WgePK_10DqqFAD5FeWd-g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313993">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313994" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277824164"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow Yvonne, that is really cool. Making software to solve problems like that is neat!</p> <p>I think my instructor is in the same boat as me, my final essay was about how stupid and classist all this was and I got a good grade for it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313994&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hYNU-0qyiznspDmnLDN0vmeNvJUqbp0crcYqK8DdhZg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 29 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313994">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313995" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277995249"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Yeah, I think TheGoodMan missed the point."</p> <p>That a bulldozer could knock me over. WTF is he still doing here? Still pretending to be a feminist?</p> <p>Cara totally called it, however. His worthless, critical-thinking-free posts need to be called out for the audience's sake.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313995&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EMmyMqSIWz2jumwO-OIDYf77alMg6zhbEzPHPLCJC7w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313995">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2010/06/27/things-are-getting-better-all%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sun, 27 Jun 2010 16:10:09 +0000 thusspakezuska 115956 at https://scienceblogs.com Dress For Success! Or Not! https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/06/09/dress-for-success-or-not <span>Dress For Success! Or Not! </span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ladeez! Please remember not to be too fat, because <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/11/13/MN111208.DTL">James Watson doesn't want to hire</a> your ugly ass. Everybody knows fat people can't do science. But they don't care if we say so, because they are so jolly, and lack ambition! </p> <p>Likewise, it is also not good to be beautiful and curvaceous, and wear clothes that fit you. For alas, <a href="http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/20100609_Mirror__Mirror__On_TV__on_the_job__What_s_so_dangerous_about_natural_curves_.html">Citibank will have to fire you</a>. Your tailored clothing is "too distracting". You distracting ladee, with your distracting turtlenecks!!! Begone from our stolid gentlemanly banking establishment!!!! </p> <p>Too thin, too thick, too sexy, not sexy enough - clearly, there is no good way for you to appear in public, ladeez. Why do you even leave the home? Unless you are on your way to a gentleman's club to do a pole or lap dance. (Thin ladeez with double D's only, please! All others, please stay home and mind the kids.) </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Wed, 06/09/2010 - 10:19</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/burns-my-shorts" hreflang="en">Burns My Shorts</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ludicrous-language" hreflang="en">Ludicrous Language</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/men-who-hate-women" hreflang="en">Men Who Hate Women</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313489" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276094164"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Every time an oppressed group manages to get their protection written into the law (like when sex discrimination became illegal at work) there is some sneaky bullshit like this to take its place.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313489&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3jJaE3a9c1iqbsCsSA_uC3NDZyWCx82ygGCS5AqRrC4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313489">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313490" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276096777"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Very true, skeptifem. I often remind myself that it makes it a sliver more obvious that it's bullshit when they have to be sneaky about it. Cold comfort, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313490&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cm0qSbX8ZliK3g1qXOVQWOiGbovJX9BnSM4f0g-7IBw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Teaspoon (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313490">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313491" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276100397"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Boy, little Jimmie Watson never ceases to amaze. Is there a genetic marker for being a douche canoe?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313491&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h_PGBIfBcTBzQYIRCRm8kCah0HH_Nnb8fieYjHyDx4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Yvonne (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313491">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313492" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276100533"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>HULK SMASH WATSON'S THIN PRIVILEGE SPEW. PURPLE SHORTS FOR ALL!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313492&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="47dJtSTVW8m_HlPRs0LAc0Y0WH6k-VkZCG8jHj9rGww"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313492">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313493" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276100636"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"<i>"Whenever you interview fat people, you feel bad, because you know you're not going to hire them," Watson said.</i>"</p> <p>If Watson is not going to hire 'fat people' then why does he interview them? It strikes me as a bit kinder to not give someone a chance to get hired than to give him or her the illusion of a chance.</p> <p>"<i>Executives at the banking giant called her tailored clothing "too distracting," she said. Lorenzana, who is attractive in a very Eva Longoria way, certainly looks sexy in photos posted on the New York Daily News website, but her clothing fits just fine.</i>"</p> <p> She is indeed a very lovely woman, and very tastefully dressed....but describing her tailored clothing as 'too distracting' is - at best - as stupid as saying that having flowers on your desk is 'too distracting'. Sure she is good looking, and her face probably has an enchanting smile - but so freaking what. Her beauty is hardly unusual, anyone who find her appearance more distracting than 9,999 other things that he or she is encountering in a day really needs to get out and experience life more.</p> <p>"<i>In the case of Lorenzana, women at her office were anonymously quoted as saying, "She should know better,"</i>"</p> <p> ?!?!?!?!? Than to dress like she is pictured in the article? That is very dignified clothing, and essentially 'unisex' clothing. Perhaps the turtleneck was tailored to accommodate her physique, but there are also turtlenecks tailored to the male physique available....and the slacks look almost the same as a pair of suit-pants that a male would wear.... If a handsome man was wearing a black turtleneck with a pair of black suit pants would people whisper that 'he should know better'? </p> <p>"<i>while the men said on the record that they would go out of their way to catch glimpses of her.</i>"</p> <p> How nice. And how utterly irrelevant. If they take a slightly longer path to the Conference Room (etc.) in order to maybe glance at her that is their business - but if they are neglecting their work in order to 'catch a glimpse' they are redundantly stupid idiots who are of less use to the company than Ms. Lorenzana is.</p> <p>Beauty is everywhere, and even more so if you look past the superficial. Folks who freak out about the presence of a 'superficially attractive' woman are socially and psychologically immature idiots with no aesthetic sense, a lack of respect for other humans, and an inability to appreciate the intrinsically redundant nature of the phrase 'beautiful woman'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313493&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ukqcb67hqge6QL9rHRGspcYDfI7uzLo1rC5-BBHZApQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">prof.pedant (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313493">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313494" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276103081"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Watson's brilliant, but god damn he's a douche.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313494&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_7NwA06-X4aVfJoM-gAnEPg12mGqXlji4x7xAAp7oxQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">smaller (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313494">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313495" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276104514"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's ok. My law school's career services office gave a presentation in which they analogized getting a job as a lawyer to being in a fashion show. What was left of my soul probably died that day.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313495&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sMSlAWKfzYCj9RVkBGpfyUpqj3cYwMOMAgfVGSSXgXc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anonsters (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313495">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313496" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276106772"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@prof.pedant "If Watson is not going to hire 'fat people' then why does he interview them? It strikes me as a bit kinder to not give someone a chance to get hired than to give him or her the illusion of a chance."</p> <p>So it appears that he isn't discriminating? But then why would he proclaim that he does? Oh, I know. It's because it isn't a requirement to put your clothing size on your CV. Yet.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313496&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Om2GymlNXOkHWHefGvafbL51MxPJspeq8bYIFexiv9I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Katherine (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313496">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313497" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276107009"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>`Doesn't a guy like Jim Watson have the responsibility to make this not ugly?'' asked UC Berkeley biologist Michael Botchan, a Watson protege. ``Yes. But I cannot tell Jim Watson to change his ways.''</i><br /> Son, if you can't, I sure as heck can. </p> <p>Dear Jim Watson,</p> <p>Although you have already made a giant ass of yourself in public, I must ask you for the good of science to please STOP. The whole world is now well aware that you are a jackass, you can stop proclaiming it publicly. Isn't there a nice island with your retirement villa on it somewhere?</p> <p>Sincerely,</p> <p>Big Pharma Minion</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313497&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MjkBXqf04AuKL4yW8ifwc6Sj4mrEN6embg0OiuVBpuY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Big Blue (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313497">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313498" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276107666"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jesus, how hard is it to understand? Somewhat attractive, but not too attractive. We donât want people thinking youâre out of our league. Definitely not fat, but not so thin that you look like a heroin addict or a refugee. And you should laugh at everything we say, or at least smile, even if its sexist or racist. And when we say something we obviously think is clever, look a little confused, not like you think itâs stupid, but like you donât quite get it, like weâre always a step or two ahead of you. </p> <p>Is that so difficult?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313498&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VCEFo2tCGej1oP88tkxgeI3AnNdRQSMhtKfBzNnmAoQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ariel Prick (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313498">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313499" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276108879"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>Is that so difficult?</em></p> <p>Oh, and always have an apron handy. And don't wear shoes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313499&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aL0sHE-zJ5yscv_D2wCWwMzxhf4eDANxrmZOR8CPu5c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anonsters (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313499">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313500" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276109218"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, so it was the D cup that got me all those jobs! Yes, it makes sense now. Tit flashing was clearly a more important element of the job than discussing scientific matters, because I cannot recall ever having to do actually the latter, at least not to the point of actually being listened to. And this explains why I no longer find it so easy to get jobs: I'm now middle aged and angry looking, and I don't like short skirts any more. Duh.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313500&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NSnTPOlmNz3XLYB92hFycRxBxsxSmOAiyrzIR0iMgBU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313500">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313501" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276110618"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Witnesses at Berkeley were flabbergasted? Shocked?! Well, what rock have they been living under? He's been spouting racist and sexist nonsense for years. You cannot tell James Watson to change his ways? How about not giving him a platform for his bullshit? How about not inviting him to give a guest lecture? Seriously, what did they expect?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313501&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pdBQHBfqxs97kwHmgnqEd-V3iYK_OBpnp0G7vAo5CzI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Trabor (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313501">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313502" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276112241"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, who do we think we are, Existing While Female and shit? Jeez.</p> <p><i>Watson's brilliant, but god damn he's a douche.</i></p> <p>I think he's essentially turned in his Brainy Badge with this one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313502&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ILs_8UvR8tiG54fo4A1S71IXJXBdtzqJwCWuucd2Tl0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313502">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313503" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276114004"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> If they take a slightly longer path to the Conference Room (etc.) in order to maybe glance at her that is their business </i></p> <p>Not quite. Ogling coworkers is sexual harassment. We know when men are "going out of their way" to "glance at us" in the workplace, and it's our business too, because it affects our work. And because it's sexual harassment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313503&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="omt4akjZYzlF2g2Ql7_vEcJyaPpO5YqhEhJ8o3uESFM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313503">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313504" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276123012"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>Ogling coworkers is sexual harassment.</em></p> <p>Not by law, I'm afraid, not unless it's really very egregious (not by Title VII, anyway; maybe your state's employment discrimination statute covers it, though it's doubtful).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313504&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="huqjOX1V1DwKW3p0wP8XULulOQ1INv-RsFvnz_MtDvw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anonsters (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313504">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313505" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276123778"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>All right then. I'm gonna lock myself at home, cause I'm just too sexy. lol</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313505&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I9-xiI2mPVfoZua2Zc6yar_idPoIAsryxofAB9zt6O4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tricyclesforadults.net" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Noel - Tricycles For Adults">Noel - Tricycl… (not verified)</a> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313505">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313506" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276126816"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I grew up during my mom's sexual harassment suit, I was a teenager. She documented everything right from the start(like you are supposed to), and I witnessed some of her co workers talking about the harassment from the same manager she eventually tried to sue. I think she had like 5 people including me writing affidavits for her case. It was like, groping and other really horribly blatant stuff, and she didn't get a trial. The story about women getting some big pay out because some guy looked at (or grabbed) her tits is a fantasy. If women have a 5% chance of getting a dude convicted for rape why would the odds be better at her job exactly?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313506&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S49ycpqmXdFP0HwbCucOMD0JBfkhu0ZdaWXLa8JtoXY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 09 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313506">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313507" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276149177"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I encourage every one of you to look up your employer's policy on harassment. Ogling does not count at my university, not even close. Harassment is limited to quid pro quo between a supervisor and supervisee.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313507&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qj1Ma6iQvYozt5hIYnyB4V71punHiWgJVSuzsZdk71Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anonymous (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313507">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313508" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276149569"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Remember that foolish Donald Trump apprenticeship show? Did anyone else think that having the male contestants dressed professionally while the female contestants wore spike heels, mini-skirts, and low-necked blouses was blatently sexist--especially since Trump's second in command dressed formally and professionally?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313508&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KGNPz0vgBArSULQ0UO4Fra_eSmCQU7YWJs3BF1vfRzY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NancyNew (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313508">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313509" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276152024"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>they are redundantly stupid idiots who are of less use to the company than Ms. Lorenzana is</i></p> <p>Yes. But how dare someone suggest that somehow it's their fault for being idiots? She MADE them do it! She has to go!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313509&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UgbEpWb5_xHovuqBYYHbGiQ1hAc0_aoCI9ne0DJUALw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313509">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313510" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276162835"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Now, now, Ladeez, lets not get our collective panties in a bunch until a man with a manly man brain comes to mansplain about why this isn't sexism, isn't a big deal, and tell us instead what to focus on. I mean, we have girly brains - def not suited to know what sexism is. Where are the men to help us!!@</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313510&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LBb6z86aOb1VZ9skWfPqlvaBKgjaR3gJptE3rNOeVXM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313510">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313511" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276173163"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Watson seems like a pig to me. </p> <p>That being said, I would be reluctant to hiring an extremely overweight person simply because of their obvious inactivity, their lack of self control, and their lack of health. I would judge any race of man or a woman equally on this subject, being unhealthy isn't cool.</p> <p>Citibank is retarded.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313511&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bjFdZ91G-pp0x-up5eFfpaAcec2CfGrzhW6eancyL3Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313511">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313512" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276174320"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Newsflash, thegoodman: not all fat people are unhealthy, not all fat people are inactive, not all fat people lack self control. (Though, some fat people are these things, just as some thin people are too.)</p> <p>In much the same vein, not all thin people are bulimic or anorexic, not all thin people are athletic, not all thin people are obsessive-compulsive about their diet. (Though some thin people are these things, just as some fat people are too.)</p> <p>Just like: not all short people are "diminutive" and shy, not all heavily-muscled people are egomaniacs, not all gay men are effeminate, not all lesbians are butch, not all tunafish are silver, and not all foxes are red.</p> <p>Shockingly, there exists a tremendous degree of normal variation amongst humans, just as in any other species. To think that you can judge work ethic by looking at physical features is laughable, ignorant, and just plain wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313512&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s2fPUokihg6wGuAdGQCes6eICvm-JyfSbM8qEgFpvJ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313512">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313513" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276176762"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>That being said, I would be reluctant to hiring an extremely overweight person simply because of their obvious inactivity, their lack of self control, and their lack of health. I would judge any race of man or a woman equally on this subject, being unhealthy isn't cool.</i></p> <p>TROOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL!!!!!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313513&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KCT4RTK81BAYQEJDsBfbDItDz_MpmMj0ml49P6L6d04"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313513">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313514" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276178874"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am not trolling Cara, but the depth of your posts continue to wow us all with your intellect.</p> <p>I didn't say 'slightly overweight', Ambivalent Academic, you are absolutely right that not all people fit their stereotypes.</p> <p>What I did say was "extremely overweight". Would you hire a 400lb person? Seriously, you honestly make no judgments of the 500lb people you see on TV or out in public? I understand that people carrying a little extra weight could be perfectly happy with themselves and be at a weight that is comfortable for them, good for them. I am talking about people who are extremely unhealthy which is blatant by their inability to keep themselves in even moderate shape.</p> <p>I refuse to accept someone for "who they are" if that person is a disgusting pig who consumes anything and everything in site and is unable to walk up a flight of stairs without stopping to take a breath. Do they have to change? No, they do whatever they want. Does that mean I should choose them to be a part of my company? Not a chance.</p> <p>You seem to think that 40 extra lbs is "extremely overweight". I do not. Anything that is clinically morbidly obese is extremely overweight. They have health issues and pose a risk to their employers and if I were a highering manager, it isn't a risk I would be willing to take.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313514&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BR7Ir5l19N0MJPtszwOHZi5qbUVivZtRq8Fssh5VZJs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313514">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313515" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276180992"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whatever, thegoodman. If those 'out of control' people just puked it up afterwards you would have no problem hiring them. You care about the appearance of those problems, not the reality. There are shit tons of lazy thin people who do not have to control what they eat because of their high metabolisms (who have really shitty health as a result of their diet/lack of exercise). None of it has anything to do with how well someone does their job, and weight alone is a totally shitty way to predict health because of the reasons I just outlined.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313515&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yAK4bE_-gfPR6iU4Cj3_wgqYf9DjHArmbZtWNsBY_Io"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313515">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313516" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276181166"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>They have health issues and pose a risk to their employers and if I were a highering manager, it isn't a risk I would be willing to take.</i></p> <p>You are saying that people with health issues are a risk to a company that you would not take if you were hiring.</p> <p>That is discrimination. I'd hope you would lose your job for violating the ADA. I wouldn't count on it though, sadly. Discrimination continues.</p> <p>I have "health issues"* as you put it (and no, I'm not even fat!). You seem confused about the difference between "health issues" and "character flaws". Not the same.</p> <p>* Chronic autoimmune disease. Yes--it it makes work hard to find and keep. Guess I'm just weak-willed and a bad risk. </p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313516&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ht-xdztdaZkLVoLrciPknZ8dRvj9hXE4wZEl0EG8YwI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313516">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313517" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276181902"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, SKM, you with your autoimmune disease and me with my PTSD ...</p> <p>why, if we'd both just suck it up, eat better, stop whining, and get over it, then someone would hire us and life would then be fine forever. Clearly.</p> <p>Until then, we'll wallow in our weak-willed self-pity. You can continue being a bad work risk and I can continue being a welfare slut.</p> <p>Also, I'm thin. Quite thin, but not too thin. Because I have anorexia. And although I look fine and act fine and am smart and often do work very well, I likewise often pass out on the job due to said anorexia.</p> <p>Good job trying to judge a book by its cover, though, thegoodman.<br /> And for the record, whenever you show up to a conversation, my heart sinks and my IQ feels like it drops twenty points. Though that may just be my heart dropping to my feet.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313517&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MWX7vcDySQvEpQGs5APOiEWkwhzqvFyu76N04hDzUEo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joy (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313517">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313518" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276182010"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@SKM<br /> Its unfortunate that you have an autoimmune disease. It doesn't change that fact that you are a risk to employers. Your risk has nothing to do with your character or your work ethic, an employee who will miss significant time from work because of health issues isn't an employee anyone would want. Its unfortunate, but the employer can't be responsible for your misfortunes.</p> <p>@Skeptifem<br /> If an employee put "bulemic" on their resume, it would hinder their ability to get hired far more than being obese. Obesity is not a "shitty" way to gauge health. It is a perfectly normal and just way to gauge the health of a newly met person. There are countless studies that show how unhealthy an obese lifestyle is. It applies to all genders and races and has little to do with economic standing. If a person is obese, you can see it when you look at them. What you CANNOT see is also a risk when hiring an employee. But that is a risk you have to take if you cant determine those risks via an interview/background check. I am not discriminating against fat people. I do not dislike them because they are fat. I would simply choose to not hire them because of their obvious character flaws combined with their health risk. Its business, its not personal.</p> <p>Would you hire a drug addict to your company? How about an alcoholic? You wouldn't DARE discriminate against someone because they choose to consume copious amounts of unhealthy substances, would you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313518&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Fu7kg2TTN3siWIkdoPjV-yoCuF0pzxIn3ReCjS8usWs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313518">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313519" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276183198"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So what do you propose that all of us ill, eating-disordered, and/or mentally traumatized people (drug addiction is basically mental trauma and often stems from other trauma such as sexual or physical abuse) DO with ourselves?</p> <p>Lie down, curl up, and wait to die?</p> <p>Or just "snap out of it"? Because clearly that's our problem. We just need to snap out of it.</p> <p>Trust me, thegoodman, if you are capable of seeing non-penised people as human beings, if all it took to get over PTSD or an eating disorder or mental trauma was a good old "snap out of it", no one (NO ONE) would have any of those problems any more. They are no fun.</p> <p>And it still doesn't address what you think SKM should do, either. Seriously. Curl up and wait to die?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313519&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DLG6HEW9KgpfaoMk7mCZUai5GjUjcWelHd4G-0uRUoY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joy (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313519">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313520" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276184352"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>thegoodman, I wish you good health. You are going to need it.</p> <p>In the meantime, expand you view to ask yourself how<i> society </i>fares when folks who are highly educated, competent, and want to work are considered unhireable due to chronic conditions (bear in mind that 60 million Americans have chronic conditions, and you may well become one of them).</p> <p>"tough shit" may be a fine personal philosophy for you, but it does little for society as a whole.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313520&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s6zyGquBFbQiUK76bZN9cZXteXSNsjmkJ_dVG-Yqmo8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313520">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313521" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276184906"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Obesity is not a "shitty" way to gauge health. It is a perfectly normal and just way to gauge the health of a newly met person. </i></p> <p>This is factually incorrect. As are most of your points. The sooner you wipe your hard drive and start fresh, the better.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313521&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I2lLTbEEzaVGGblDnH1EHbhVHmK37NmdVdTgKosUE3I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313521">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313522" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276185360"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I am not trolling Cara, but the depth of your posts continue to wow us all with your intellect.</i></p> <p>You are, indeed trolling. Also, my engineering-doing girly brain has words like "pearls" and "swine" rolling about in there, but it just...can't...quite...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313522&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="--pzVEt74MCfncZ8PKoZNaHYqBHsxGyPy5O0WC0_JxI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313522">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313523" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276189027"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>They don't put it on their resume (and if they did I would hope that they could spell it correctly), that is the point. There are tons of skinnies walking around looking perfectly normal and eating freakish amounts of food who fly under your radar all the time. There are skinny folks with crappy health for other reasons that you don't notice either. </p> <p>Weight is a poor indicator of health. If it was a great one there wouldn't be much need to do things like labs and vitals. It is one piece of information that has to be used in conjunction with other measures in order to be useful at all. Thin people who do not exercise or watch their diet have (predictably) horrendous cardiac health, as is indicated by things like lipid panels. A heavy person who works out and eats healthy foods is likely to have a much lower cardiac risk. If we could tell just by looking at people then bloodwork to measure these things would not be done at all. You know nothing about medicine, dude, don't pretend.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313523&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="td9zN4SKvzDTK9t5cQsM8UKlmq2DRzH8D_Q3-NPheKU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313523">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313524" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276192283"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can't freaking believe that that asshole would say that he would not hire someone with an autoimmune disease. Especially that he would say it directly to you, SKM. Considering how perfect one would have to be to deserve consideration in his world, I hope that he's a firm supporter of single-payer health care, a strong and robust welfare state, and other societal interventions to paper over (in part, because obviously none of that would resolve the problem of not being respected and of not being treated as fully human) SOME of the issues with the world he feels comfortable in.</p> <p>Anyone who needs a breath a fresh air and hasn't read Jill Psmith's latest, might want to head over here for a refreshing reminder of the utter pointlessness of trolls:</p> <p><a href="http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2010/06/10/hanging-chads-of-savage-death-island-bore-the-shit-out-of-spinster-aunt/">http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2010/06/10/hanging-chads-of-savage-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313524&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="65YkF60CBQE6BiogItxa0RWoy-DtIljLROpcwmnfZzM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313524">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313525" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276192379"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The key quote from thegoodman is this one @26:</p> <p><i>I refuse to accept someone for "who they are" if that person is a disgusting pig who consumes anything and everything in site and is unable to walk up a flight of stairs without stopping to take a breath. Do they have to change? No, they do whatever they want. </i></p> <p>Thegoodman is not speak from a place of rationality, but from a place of very visceral feeling, and that feeling is disgust. Perhaps fat is merely a symbol of unfettered appetite and people "doing whatever they want" with no self-control. Is it the fat, or the "doing what one wants" without submitting to the will of others, or the supposed of lack of self control that may lead to chaos and everything spinning out of control, that stimulates the disgust response? Maybe all of the above. Hard to say. What I do know is that you cannot logically argue someone out of their disgust response. It's almost impossible to even get them to acknowledge that the disgust response is where they are operating from, when they think that are speaking from a place of pure logica and sensibility. Even if they were able to admit that the disgust response is what's motivating them, what are they going to do? Say, okay, I'll stop being disgusted by fat people/gays/blacks/women/smelly immigrants who eat funny food and steal mah jobs? They'll say "no, this is actually disgusting, and you ought to be disgusted by it too." There is no way to win a dialogue with a person who is full of disgust, when your only weapon is logic. Unless the law and the courts and and the prisons and the civil penalties are all on your side. Then maybe you have a chance.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313525&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rQflirMOV_BdJ0hIKIel8uiFCOUC00yfEDDFx2qel0w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313525">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313526" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276193225"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>["If they take a slightly longer path to the Conference Room (etc.) in order to maybe glance at her that is their business"<br /> "<i>Not quite. Ogling coworkers is sexual harassment. We know when men are "going out of their way" to "glance at us" in the workplace, and it's our business too, because it affects our work. And because it's sexual harassment.</i>]</p> <p>So walking down a hall, glancing into an open office door or window - without changing your perfectly normal walking pace - is 'sexual harassment'?</p> <p>From <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glance">http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glance</a><br /> glance<br /> 1 /glæns, glÉns/ Show Spelled [glans, glahns]<br /> âverb (used without object)<br /> 1. to look quickly or briefly.<br /> [snip]<br /> âverb (used with object) Archaic .<br /> 5. to cast a glance or brief look at; catch a glimpse of.<br /> [snip]<br /> ânoun<br /> 8. a quick or brief look.<br /> [snip]</p> <p>If a glance constitutes 'sexual harassment', is it possible for someone (woman or man) to look at a woman without that look constituting 'sexual harassment'? Or does glancing at people in order to successfully navigate ones way through a crowd make a person a 'serial harasser'?</p> <p>Ms. Lorenzana was reprehensibly treated, and unjustifiably fired, but nothing in the article said that she was being harassed (other than the 'talking about her behind her back' crap). Instead it looks like a bunch of immature and incompetent idiots were all in a kerfluffle because people noticed that Ms. Lorenzana was attractive.</p> <p>The only way that 'sexual harassment' seems to have played a 'role' is that the immature incompetent idiots were so scared of their thoughts (or someones thoughts) about Ms. Lorenzana's attractiveness that they panicked and fired her instead of firing the 'thoughtcrimer' they were worried about. One of the many things that those self-centered fools need to learn is to not believe every thing that they think. Thinking that anyone, male or female, is so very attractive and irresistible that you would like to [censored] right here and now is only a thought, a thought that probably more than 99.999% of the time has nothing to do with reality and has essentially no chance of happening (i.e. he/she is almost always 'just not that into you', and won't be that into you no matter how charming and deserving you are). It is only a thought, and it is not a guide on how to tell people to live their lives, get over it.</p> <p>(Katherine @ #8, Bingo. Watson is discriminating, but until he made those statements he _appeared_ to not be discriminating....and partly because "<i>it isn't a requirement to put your clothing size on your CV. Yet.</i>". But, as a 'person of size' I would prefer to not get an interview at a place that already knew they were not going to hire me than go through a farce in which I mistakenly thought I had a chance....)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313526&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9VB1pTDD2GF_cC4ZOz0CqzlqoCEi657cFzX3gKS-aY0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">prof.pedant (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313526">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313527" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276196977"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I can't freaking believe that that asshole would say that he would not hire someone with an autoimmune disease. Especially that he would say it directly to you, SKM. </i></p> <p>Well, I certainly can. Of course, real-life hiring managers are too smart to state discrimination as a reason for not hiring openly. That's one of many reasons why the Americans with Disabilities Act hasn't done as much good as it was intended to do.</p> <p>Of course, the really hilarious part is that thegoodman would likely never know to discriminate against me unless I told him of my illness, because I am thin and conventionally attractive and have excellent references and am therefore apparently of good character. Of course, if he hired me on such 'false pretenses' (never mind that I am by law not required to reveal my health history in an interview) and he got even a whiff of "not-normal" health from me, he would likely fire me for withholding the vital information of what a very bad risk I am!</p> <p>And so it goes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313527&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eIyd4hzlldXvvUcHzSKxClK9a1VSWJmtWrzw6YvkEiQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313527">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313528" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276205347"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm with those who are surprised that anyone surprised by Watson's antics. He's always been a dim bulb and a nasty-minded bully.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313528&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ihC5Nb0Go6g478BJKr3f3hkb-LEEyekfun4WHhyW83o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313528">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313529" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276205831"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SKM, same here. I think that the small fortune taxpayers have spent on my education to make the most of my abilities means that I have an obligation to use that education and those abilities, since that's the whole reason society made such an investment in the first place. Evidently thegoodman much prefers the "screw the taxpayers" approach. Oh well, he can always make sure he personally doesn't take advantage of my work. Hey dude, just to be sure, you'd better disconnect your electricity. You might be using something that came from OMGASICKIE!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313529&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MG0JlKl4amP6NOGEqgznHI6F7_kO9eS8iAlckfEaILk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313529">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313530" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276232327"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SKM, I hope that I didn't misspeak. I didn't mean that I couldn't believe it, more that it made me really angry. I should have said that, and if it seemed like I was denying or dismissing your experience, I apologize.</p> <p>I can well believe that people would be that horrible. And I'm so sorry -- angry -- that people like you and my m-i-l (with an autoimmune disease) have to deal with such people.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313530&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BM18gGVXyzJ8AgNHiEsfNFRZneGiuHiGptA0oV_AUOE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313530">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313531" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276242437"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>SKM, I hope that I didn't misspeak.</i></p> <p>Oh, not at all! I meant the "well, I certainly can" in more of an "oh, heavy sigh!" way. I got what you meant. I should have been clearer.</p> <p><i>you'd better disconnect your electricity. You might be using something that came from OMGASICKIE!</i></p> <p>Yup. As Zuska said, this is a matter of disgust. That's what happens when you make health a moral issue.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313531&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A3vVd5uMxNopEmTltiVgJI9PQhZ2ve6kt0zblrCplQs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313531">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313532" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276245299"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I refuse to accept someone for "who they are" if that person is a disgusting pig who consumes anything and everything in site and is unable to walk up a flight of stairs without stopping to take a breath."</p> <p>Huh. So, by "thegoodman", you actually mean "arrogant, judgmental, self-righteous bigot". Gotcha.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313532&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ciX_pbSU2XPY61akfZrIUfp1Au7Uxj6limnI3PE53HU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313532">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313533" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276247456"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ thegoodman: I would certainly hire someone who is overweight and qualified, but I certainly wouldn't hire someone who doesn't know the difference between "its" and "it's" and "site" and "sight". Good written communication is a real job requirement at my company. An ideal weight target is not.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313533&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uSCfBWu0J1-EcPSZi-DdnfTGBpCabSZ02aLroWuvGoo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">bluefoot (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313533">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313534" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276251116"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>O irony, thou art a jewel! I mean, James Watson ain't exactly David Tennant. </p> <p>So, by the logic of the Appearance Police, now I can fire guyyyzzz who don't come to work all buff, tanned, and oiled up? I need some hawt mancandy to brighten up these dull grey cubicle walls. Stat. </p> <p>And d00dz with bad combovers, can they go? </p> <p>What about d00dz who chew tobacco? Can we not hire them? How about smoking? I don't want to smell cigarettes all day. </p> <p>Really, this could totally brighten up my day. Of course, I would lose a bunch of damn smart colleagues, but eye candy RAWKS!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313534&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bH1XMeCMv99aiT-6o7cq-cr3DVREG5NmdXwAmhg3k0k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OleanderTea (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313534">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313535" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276253164"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Somehow, I doubt any human being, male or female, could meet thegoodman's standards for character, appearance, and health. And if they did when he hired them, well, things change...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313535&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7cbml_jT2y6adXl6nx1E0MVNxuxK3toBhP9DDrbyqEg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">syfr (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313535">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313536" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276264163"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yvonne: "Boy, little Jimmie Watson never ceases to amaze. Is there a genetic marker for being a douche canoe?"</p> <p>Probably not, but there might be a picture of him leaping over a large predatory fish.</p> <p>As for Ms. Lorenzana and her curves, what do they want her to do, hide under a burqa?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313536&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WcYcayuo_Q0TBmi-wN9yjxjjr6VeDkHMgL8wyql2dus"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J. J. Ramsey (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313536">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313537" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276269681"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Unlike you, thegoodman, I am quite able to recognize that my personal experiences are not objective reality that applies equally to all humans. My 40 lbs. of "thesis weight" is a very different thing, which I can manage very differently, than someone else's chronic and/or hereditary illness or just plain normal healthy metabolism. Of all the antelopes in all the world, some of those antelopes are gazelles, and some of them are water buffalo. That doesn't mean that water buffalo have a failure of will that causes them not to look like gazelles.</p> <p>Some of the most brilliant people I know are well over the "obesity" mark (by whichever fundamentally flawed mechanism you choose to define this term) and they are excellent at their jobs. Some of them are having a hard time getting jobs (as QC engineers at BP - jeezus, if anyone ever needed a good QC engineer, it's them) because of ignorance like yours.</p> <p>I am so tired of this shit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313537&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-Gujkw4hyRY8UsZX20DLqNBETFhMFEVdmM5MNYgfY00"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313537">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313538" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276270113"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, where did I ever say that "40 lbs equals extremely overweight"? Pretty sure I didn't.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313538&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cUwBL1jrGxKEhQe5tYUeBHngtosYlYkjxIMEGNHrZpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313538">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313539" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276279747"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I will recall fondly thegoodman's advice during my current hiring decision-making. </p> <p>PharmaMinion: We work very closely with many groups here, and BigPharma is, of course, an international company interested in hiring the best minds possible. Can you tell me about a time when you had to work in a role where communication was challenging from a personal standpoint--perhaps dealing with office politics, working with someone from a very different culture, or having to explain your work concisely to people in a completely different field?</p> <p>thegoodman: It's simple, honey. I just set very high standards for people, and they can live up to them or not. Their choice. Because I'm all about respecting choices. </p> <p>PharmaMinion: Um. Huh. Well, there's still 50 minutes left in the interview...I guess...do you have any questions for me about BigPharma?</p> <p>thegoodman: Yeah, I think it's great that you guys make weight-loss drugs, help people get control of themselves. Could I work on any projects like that?</p> <p>PharmaMinion: I don't think I can answer that in an interview, although there are certainly many publications available through PubMed if you are interested in reading more. Do you have any previous experience working on metabolic disease that's not on your CV?</p> <p>thegoodman: No. </p> <p>PharmaMinion: Ah. Well, how about we see if the next person on your schedule might be available early? Maybe you could go back to <i>thinks, oh gawd, don't say "the rock you crawled out from under"</i>...back to...uh, where are you from again?</p> <p>Sadly, we do get interviewees like this. On such occasions, I have been grateful for the fact that in modern times, a reply above and beyond a short rejection letter or email isn't really expected.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313539&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i_MNHT46vQAbAIkqMgJTsSjclqmJxHhQ8dqFj7RvFwY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Big Blue (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313539">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313540" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276282413"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, I did not realize that the combination of a super-efficient metabolism, a different set of bacteria in the gut, and dietary and physical activity choices made one's character flawed!</p> <p>I work for a man who would certainly cause thegoodman to cringe and wag his finger disapprovingly, since he's obese (and therefore lacks good moral character), but quite honestly there is nobody in this world I would rather work for. This man is one of the smartest people I've ever met, both academically and socially. Basically, professionally speaking, I want to be him when I grow up.</p> <p>People who judge him for his size are truly missing out on a gem. He has taken me under his wing and someday I will rise in the management chain thanks to his support and what I have learned from him.</p> <p>It's too bad, thegoodman -- sometimes the best people come in beauty-noncompliant packages. Take off your judgmental blinders and see what you are missing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313540&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0hSGPVnrTjOyxpWpoHlsor5xMiCoH3vwKpr2D6Kd5es"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">R (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313540">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313541" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276284762"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Appearance and morals -- isn't that also what was at stake in the CitiBank case? Her very appearance indicated that she was either too slutty or too unavailable. Both of which, of course, are moral failings for women.</p> <p>And body weight is no different. The tabloids have images of "shockingly heavy" stars and also "who is anorexic?" spreads. There is no way to escape the weird (perhaps Christian influenced?) idea that our bodies -- no matter what they are -- are dirty, sinful, indicators of inadequacy, etc. (Women's bodies, of course, most of all.) As Zuska's title points out, there really is no way to succeed. To do our bodies "right."</p> <p>(Yes, some people have the privilege to get very close to the ideal body that has nothing "wrong" with it, so not everyone is as pulled between different demands for how they "do" their bodies; however, I wonder if there really is anyone who can actually pull it off perfectly? I suspect not, though I could be wrong.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313541&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="utAR0PfjDIPTrCbJ0utP_QnWImLkks0H3OH8OM9HFD0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 11 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313541">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313542" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276330146"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On a little tangent, I heard on TV that CitiBank (?) had 12% female executives. However, 45% of the let go executives were female. Given the increase in female participation in various professions, it seems likely that a large portion of female employees are new hires. If so, females will suffer disproportionately when the "last hired, first fired" principle is applied. If that principle is applied in a knee jerk fashion, how one dresses probably doesn't have much effect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313542&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OaPraR1EaZIDOSIcNxL7EvEGEH5LYvJf2WjU2ws9S14"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jim Thomerson (not verified)</span> on 12 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313542">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313543" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276368666"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Somehow, I doubt any human being, male or female, could meet thegoodman's standards for character, appearance, and health.</i></p> <p>Except for his imaginary wife, I'm sure.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313543&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nlvvRdCLvrUAnIYZKA8dBQD71faFAPpQkJHI7xCps7o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 12 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313543">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313544" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276429765"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mr Goodman also never (of course) showered us with his wisdom about what "unhealthy" people (by his standards, every person) should DO.</p> <p>Apparently either lay down on our mats by the side of the road and hold out our hats to the more evolutionarily fit while we wait to die, or go on welfare.</p> <p>And something tells me he neither knows exactly how welfare works, nor supports its use.</p> <p>Sorry, thegoodman. We sickies are gonna keep on a-workin' out here.</p> <p>Question for fellow sickies: Is failure to disclose an illness seen as ... a type of lie?</p> <p>(I am having trouble with apartments right now, as I had a PTSD flashback and my roommates feel I "lied" to them for not telling them that I had PTSD. Although my flashbacks directly effect only me, if I fail to disclose my PTSD to future apartment-mates, am I basically lying by omission?<br /> And is it the same with other problems in the workplace?)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313544&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2yQy9BeDoq-QXw8wVtZjVT_8l1FRfzxiuU4NaqRCWDY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joy (not verified)</span> on 13 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313544">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313545" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276475853"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Say, okay, I'll stop being disgusted by fat people/gays/blacks/women/smelly immigrants who eat funny food and steal mah jobs? They'll say "no, this is actually disgusting, and you ought to be disgusted by it too." There is no way to win a dialogue with a person who is full of disgust, when your only weapon is logic."</p> <p>You cannot seriously believe that extremely obese people have no control of there situation. I have nothing at all against gays/blacks/women/ or immigrants. I do however have something against people who knowingly live unhealthy lifestyles because they know that society will support them when they have eaten themselves into a will chair or the emergency room. They have no respect for their own bodies and no respect for anyone else's. Extremely obese people are not a minority and to imply I am grouping them with minorities is insulting to me and yourself (as a woman).</p> <p>You nailed it, I am definitely disgusted by extremely fat people (not "heavy" people) because there is not excuse for it. I am equally disgusted by drug users, child molesters, and other people that lack the ability to control their desires and in turn cause harm to others or themselves. Why am I being demonized for asking that people show some restraint in their life?</p> <p>Someone asked what I think a "healthy" person is (albeit facetiously). The answer is simp, someone who cares about their own health. Eat moderate amounts of food, and exercise occasionally. That's it. Its not asking much and the results are 100% effective. 400-500lb people do neither of these 2 things and I find it impossible to respect a person who does not respect their own bodies. As an employer, I wouldn't hire a person who had so little respect for such an important aspect of their life.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313545&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UvYmBO7CRN3x2lbdqK4waff-ysbATaFZRBXJeX4ODhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 13 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313545">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276476305"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>*sorry for the double post</p> <p>"[Obesity is an indicator of an unhealthy person]This is factually incorrect. As are most of your points. The sooner you wipe your hard drive and start fresh, the better."</p> <p>You couldn't be more wrong. Obesity is a perfectly legitimate determining factor for an unhealthy person. Obesity is tied to dozens of detrimental medical conditions. If you truly believe that an obese person is healthy, you should study some of the medicine behind what I am saying.</p> <p><a href="http://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/what-is-obesity">http://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/what-is-obesity</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-KdIl2u2HmKsAPGuQ1rBZTXcHFshK__-lbL1qXolQFs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 13 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276501425"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>they know that society will support them when they have eaten themselves into a will chair</i></p> <p>What's a "will chair"? Hey, maybe if I had one, I wouldn't be sick! You know, since it's just a matter of will and all.</p> <p><i>If you truly believe that an obese person is healthy</i></p> <p>Which obese person? They are not all the same. Some are healthy, some are not. </p> <p>I take it you would never hire a smoker either.</p> <p>In any case, I think the joke would be on me if I were to give you any more attention.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OPbKEfUA55s0p1zv0Y9UMXSSGFoAhFAVTddIkUlnNc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276508603"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@58: "tied to" is a correlative phrase. Like all research done on humans, the studies that support a "link" between obesity and choose-your-favorite-medical-condition are correlation studies. Correlation =/= Causation. The trends reported say NOTHING about whether obesity is a cause or an effect of the "related" medical conditions. And, of course, they say even less than nothing about obese people who are perfectly healthy. I suggest you take a statistics course.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="J7SHSMAxZ6aERQ9LDscTX1aADGqIg9wvKCEbo8Sa9L4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276511329"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"What's a "will chair"? Hey, maybe if I had one, I wouldn't be sick! You know, since it's just a matter of will and all."</p> <p>Haha, that was a boneheaded typo. It was late...</p> <p>Since we are now arguing weather or not being obese is healthy or unhealthy, it is very clear to me that most of you are in fact gender feminists. If I said the sky was blue, you would say I am a lying man and the sky is more of a blue-ish green.</p> <p>I am pro-equity feminism. I am pro individualist feminism. Because I have a penis, I am Satan in the eyes of you gender feminists so I am always in a no win situation.</p> <p>You want to talk about disgust vs logic? I said that obese people are unhealthy and pose a risk to potential employers (a completely true and logical argument). A few of you go on to say that obesity is not a sign of unhealthiness (completely illogical) and employers have no right to judge future employees based on their appearance (also, completely illogical).</p> <p>I didn't say heavy people are incapable, I didn't even say fat people are incapable, I simply said that obese people show character flaws to their interviewers. Will those character flaws hinder there ability to perform well at work? Maybe, maybe not. If they are standing next to a more fit yet equally qualified person, who would you choose to hire? Professionalism is important in any job and not taking care of your body is unprofessional.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jw1pqow1LhdXHjXwPhEb9GedbdT60VwoH762EUYiT3E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276513796"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Hey all you women who are feminists! UR doin' rongz!!"</p> <p>d00d - the clue is in the name.</p> <p>PS - if you're all about individualist wtfever, how come you lump all fat people into the "unhealthy" category? If you really are a feminist, what gives with all the judging people on their appearances? Surely you must have encountered the arguments for how this is harmful to people in all your feminist studies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ShmVkx_ATzWonSYzbKhdhJbYlE-eTX95HF9dv1Fkz4s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276515454"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, in addition to being an insufferable bigot, he's also a condescending mansplainer. LOL of course. </p> <p>Of course women who've been feminists since before his blow up wife came in the mail are doing feminism wrong - they don't agree with him! And, since he knows fucking nothing about feminism and weight issues, we're clearly cKKKKRRRAAZZZZZYyYY if we don't take his totally uninformed, obviously pulled from his ass opinion as gospel truth. </p> <p>Thanks, thecrapboy, for the belly laugh. Really. I love watching ignorant bigots dig themselves in deep and then decide to try for China.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QEaNiWzP0aU4jD8irquBMes2GtwrwRif3CkLPu3PofQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276515611"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I am pro-equity feminism. I am pro individualist feminism. Because I have a penis, I am Satan in the eyes of you gender feminists so I am always in a no win situation."</p> <p>LOL. Just saw this. yes, it's your penis that makes us roll our eyes at you. that's totally it. It's not your ignorance, your dishonesty, your condescension, your hilariously inept mansplaining or your arrogance. Nah! It's your penis! We craazzzzzzyyyy feminists just hate penises!!!</p> <p>You're the douchebag gift that just keeps on giving.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Rim7SfvbeoNi3fng3sedU-6NITtmnQSfoNPH1x5Jbcs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276519927"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If they are standing next to a more fit yet equally qualified person, who would you choose to hire? Professionalism is important in any job and not taking care of your body is unprofessional.</p></blockquote> <p>The stats you have supplied are population studies. The scenario you posit is about individuals. You cannot generalize a population study to individuals, because individuals vary and do not have to be anywhere near the average for their particular group. In your example, there is no legal way to determine if the obese individual is that way because of a "character flaw" instead of a metabolic disorder, thyroid condition, genetic predisposition, or medication side-effect. Likewise, for all you know the "more fit" individual could be someone who never exercises, eats junk food all day (with the help of a fast metabolism), cheats on his girlfriend, slacks off at work, steals from the offering plate, or has any of countless other character flaws which aren't readily visible. You just don't know!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pl2ifD3-VjCyphxO-whFojLxlal9fbCDtgknMN6HK_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kierra (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276524049"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just in case anyone out in the audience *is* actually scratching their heads saying "how come feminists are pro-fatties?", it's definitely an issue that affects men and women jaw-droppingly differently. </p> <p>A recent article looked at lost earnings from obesity and mentioned a gender effect. Here's what I think of as the money quote:<br /><i>"If the assumptions for this model hold true, Millennial US women will earn an average of $956 billion less due to obesity during their lifetime, whereas Millennial men will earn an average of $43 billion less. The overall impact of obesity on the aggregate lifetime earnings of Millennial men and women is close to one trillion dollars.</i></p> <p>The enormous disparity of this impact on lifetime earnings between men and women is largely due to the much larger wage penalties payed by obese women compared to obese men and exist despite the fact that womenâs labour participation rates and earnings tend to be less than menâs."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LRvTI1pXC6oOiOHT3KwJcAEHMH0dPfHRwnXwNBLlPsA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-may-cost-us-boomer-babies-1-trillion-in-lifetime-earnings.html" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">becca (not verified)</a> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276526249"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>LOL. Just saw this. yes, it's your penis that makes us roll our eyes at you. that's totally it. It's not your ignorance, your dishonesty, your condescension, your hilariously inept mansplaining or your arrogance. Nah! It's your penis! We craazzzzzzyyyy feminists just hate penises!!!</i></p> <p>Endor, he's on to us. </p> <p>(After all, everybody knows that two heads are better than one. We must just be envious).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="K_CUucLuM2g9Pzgs7ymLfE-d17WbPaxSSes-3--auz0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276526480"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>PS - if you're all about individualist wtfever, how come you lump all fat people into the "unhealthy" category? If you really are a feminist, what gives with all the judging people on their appearances? Surely you must have encountered the arguments for how this is harmful to people in all your feminist studies.</i></p> <p>AA FTW. Also SKM is right, he's too stupid to even be a good hackeysack.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2K3JGIFHGUXRnkN5PV5QyBBQRwoJbCxW-lSpIsBRLYE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276545972"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is yet another situation where dozens of words have been put into my mouth and countless assumptions have been made about me.</p> <p>There is no excuse on earth for being extremely obese. Some people may have circumstances that make it more difficult for them to maintain a healthy weight, like many of you have pointed out. Does this mean those individuals should be allowed to just toss their responsibility to be healthy out the window? I don't think it does.</p> <p>"It's not your ignorance"<br /> I have learned a lot about privilege, feminism, and equality in the past few weeks since first reading the blog and I am learning more all of the time.</p> <p>"your dishonesty"<br /> I have been dishonest about nothing. This point is just confusing and you seem to be attempting to undermine my posts by attacking my character which from the information you have in front of you, is actually very honest.</p> <p>"your condescension"<br /> I may condescending at times, but I have a long way to go before I reach the heights of condescension that many of seem to have attained long ago.</p> <p>"your hilariously inept mansplaining"<br /> The entire use of the word mansplaining reinforces my gender feminist claims. Society is to blame for the inequities between men and women, many (most) women willingly participate in this inequity and a word like mansplaining places all of the blame on men along and dodges the bigger issues.</p> <p>"your arrogance."<br /> Most of what I have said is simply my opinion. They are neither better nor worse than your own opinions and there are numerous people on both sides of the issues we are discussing. If I seem arrogant by posting factual data that supports my claims that obesity is detrimental to healthy, then continue assuming I am arrogant and continue fueling the obesity epidemic in our country that is hurting us all.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="00MtuseNADyKXqp66yWEUC9Pu8NU2uNFs3-sA1iMxQ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313558" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276548817"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're a moron.</p> <p>That is all.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313558&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lCgYOGbS9AeJhTDnsLBo0GTThmIJm_QB25ryLAf_z_g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313558">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313559" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276550033"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"and a word like mansplaining places all of the blame on men alone and dodges the bigger issues"</p> <p>No, 'mansplaining' is a very clearly defined term for a particular situation in which gendertyping and gender assumptions are the determining factors in interpersonal conduct revolving around discussion of technical or traditionally masculine interests, or situations in which opinions of men are accorded value above equivilant (sometimes identical and previously given) opinions of females.</p> <p>The blogs that have used 'mansplaining' have had to repeatedly explain and re-explain exactly what they mean by 'mansplaining' - almost exclusively to men.</p> <p>It clearly identifies male privilege and gender assumptions of competance as being so endemic and systemic as to impact directly on interpersonal and group dynamics in everyday situations, in all forms of relationships.</p> <p>If you honestly don't think there are situations where females are assumed to be incompetant unless proven otherwise, even by otherwise 'modern' guys, then I can only conclude you have led an abnormal or sheltered life. Or you're incompetant.</p> <p>This is just deja vu now. Kindly piss off and stop making such a bad name for us blokes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313559&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t-u1OFU43-wTIBb29IZuABbt1b1MMBtxJXJITDeGqmw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dedj (not verified)</span> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313559">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313560" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276557504"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>thegoodman- there are countless 'excuses' for being obese. Work in medicine for a year d00d, then get back to me about how fat is all voluntary and controllable.</p> <p>Hell, we don't even know how much control any of us have over our behavior anyway. Go ahead- try to prove free will (to you, please don't inflict the arguments on all of us). You can't. It is just something you assume exists because you feel like it has to. Entire systems, like your moral judgment, and the criminal justice system, hinge on the crucial assumption of complete control of behavior. We really have no clue.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313560&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q18J_qS54_Gn0COCKCpJvDVcfEEF_1MG_iAvM_AZZtA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 14 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313560">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313561" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276580114"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I am pro-equity feminism. I am pro individualist feminism.</i></p> <p>We'd better quit now. GoodD00d is not merely a feminist ally -- no, he IS feminism, specifically pro-equity (with what "equity" is defined, of course, by himself, not by biased women who feel that fat people deserve "equity" as well) and pro-individualist (and of course "the individual" is usually defined as the "default" person -- white, male, cis, able-bodied, reasonably attractive, etc.).</p> <p>If you doubt that "individualism" is so defined, just look at Arizona's new policy against ethnic studies classes, which specifies that they don't want to focus on "ethnic groups" but on the history of <i>individuals</i>. And by that, of course, they mean that they want a history program in which one week lumps together the history of women, blacks, and Latin@s (if we're lucky!) and points out that Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King Jr., and Rosa Parks were totally cool! Then after that week they can go back to all the other individuals who made our country great (without, of course, any assistance from unpaid work by women and PoC or theft from Native populations). Sorry for the rant.</p> <p>But "individual" is an interesting term, because it sounds so innocuous, but it is often used to dismiss the concerns of anyone but white, cis, het, middle-to-upper-class, able-bodied men, each of the latter of whom, is, of course, an individual, while everyone else is just a representative of some "group." Hence -- all fatties are alike, all women are alike, all PoC are alike....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313561&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k5PjEQ_sE911nv6gm97Pl_fZZHwd2ZNBRCtd_Mt1q34"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313561">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313562" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276583963"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Since your comment merely reinforced what I already said about you (and thanks for that, btw), only this needs comment:</p> <p>"a word like mansplaining places all of the blame on men along and dodges the bigger issues. "</p> <p>This is an outright lie, as is easily proven by a quick scroll down on this very site. Thanks for proving, beyond a doubt, that you're a dishonest, self-obsessed bigot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313562&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XZTMzPDp6udYswlwCRCwpip3GxgwLOEMB8TSde1R9B4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313562">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313563" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276586804"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><b>@Dedj</b>: just one minor point. You use "men" and "females" in the same sentence, and "guys" and "females" in another sentence. This may seem like hair-splitting, but that's dehumanizing language. It's "men" and "women", or "guys" and "gals", "girls", "dames", etc. If you're going to use "females", pair it with "males". And that usage is best saved for research (IMO). Generally, "female" is an adjective. </p> <p>It is a very common habit to pair "men" with "females" in conversation, (even my 8-year-old nephew has picked it up), so you are in plentiful company. If you stop to think about why it's so common, you may realize that it's related to society's long-standing tradition of treating women like livestock.</p> <p>I realize that lots of folks think of "females" as handy because it covers women <i>and</i> girls, but one is better off just saying "women and girls", or when in doubt for a mixed group, just stick with "women".</p> <p>Other than that, I agree with your comment--thanks!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313563&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MMbeKWLPXkXW4x5XYz_JWjXKyZJGc7pFCi8Xn9YTiJw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313563">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313564" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276586892"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If you doubt that "individualism" is so defined, just look at Arizona's new policy against ethnic studies classes, which specifies that they don't want to focus on "ethnic groups" but on the history of individuals. And by that, of course, they mean that they want a history program in which one week lumps together the history of women, blacks, and Latin@s (if we're lucky!) and points out that Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King Jr., and Rosa Parks were totally cool!</p></blockquote> <p>WTF, did they really say that MLK was an example of someone without a history that could be note worthy to law enforcement?? The FBI seemed to think he was worth surveillance. </p> <p><a href="http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/king.htm">http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/king.htm</a> </p> <p>They followed him around and made a shit ton of reports.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313564&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="js-OqEjFpdNUpvaca5VUZs5ie_fOt61LUzPZ2KxtTiI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313564">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313565" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276586943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What are the bigger issues being dodged by the cute term "mansplaining"?</p> <p>Here's a few:</p> <p>1.) that some men really do have complete contempt for women's knowledge and experience<br /> 2.) that some men can't really believe that a woman might know more about [X] than they do<br /> 3.) that some men show an utter disregard for the full humanity of women, believing and acting as if women are a "second sex" -- secondary, Other, different, hysterical, unreliable, confused, ignorant, childish<br /> 4.) that these men feel entitled to explain to women NOT ONLY the things that these men actually do know well BUT ALSO the things that the women are more truly experts in, be it anything from nuclear physics to a woman's own memories of her childhood (depending upon the specific individuals involved)<br /> 5.) that this kind of behavior drives women crazy, because we know the beliefs upon which it is based -- and because we have experienced it daily, including from the men we care about most, and it is a continuous and frustrating reminder that SOME MEN (said group to be determined <i>by their actions</i>, not by intent or by the "feminism" they say they represent) have absolutely no idea that women are indeed full human beings with intelligence, experience, and expertise.</p> <p>It's most obvious, perhaps, when some 18 year old guy tries to tell a female professor that he knows her subject better than she does. But when a man decides to explain to a woman <i>her own experience</i> that's when "mansplaining" comes with the implication that men ultimately are the owners, experts, and arbiters of women's bodies, experiences, and lives -- and that's when it really makes me, personally, mad.</p> <p>In my opinion, saying "mansplaining" does dodge the bigger issues by presenting such a disturbing phenomenon in rather cute terms. But really, would anyone actually want to have to say outright "explaining in such a way that he shows utter contempt for the autonomy, intelligence, and worth of a woman"? And GoodD00d, would you really want to hear it all the time?</p> <p>And if you're an equity feminist -- thus believing that equality should be the goal, which implies that you believe women are not completely equal yet -- then if women are, as a class, underprivileged, what class is, as a group, privileged? Men. Thus when a man explains to a woman something that she knows better than he does, that is an example of the exercise of a particular type of privilege. A privilege that is gendered, granted to males, and denied to females. If you don't believe that men, as a class, are privileged and women, as a class, are denied those privileges, why even call yourself a feminist?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313565&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JXnZvnCUxPakJrunUpxAN7uRT7RnGWM2xX1sb7cODiE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313565">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313566" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276587926"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I <i>would </i>say that, if nothing else, thegoodman has at least served a purpose by clearly outlining mainstream beliefs about health, morality, fatness, and feminism, except that <a href="http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2010/06/10/hanging-chads-of-savage-death-island-bore-the-shit-out-of-spinster-aunt/">we don't need the lesson because we already know!</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313566&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a9ECWmvl2t_rdZYcw0p4euxoSTR33wO-Y2rkwSTZElM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313566">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313567" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276596648"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I notice "thegoodman" is still using electricity, and thus benefiting from the work of someone so morally bankrupt as to have a medical condition. Oh dear. How shameful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313567&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZbSrb3I4lpm-nIcyf_5xQdxTg6Nq87085uSwyS2LYgY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313567">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313568" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276599543"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"And if you're an equity feminist -- thus believing that equality should be the goal, which implies that you believe women are not completely equal yet -- then if women are, as a class, underprivileged, what class is, as a group, privileged? Men."</p> <p>Yes. White men are privileged. You left out the racial point, like many feminists do. Lets summarize my views quickly and then try to decide why I am a liar bigot as many of you have described me.</p> <p>I know that white males are privileged.</p> <p>I know that equality is not present and all of us should work to make it more present with the ultimate goal of absolute equality.</p> <p>I sincerely believe that women are my academic, intellectual, professional, etc.. equal. </p> <p>If a woman is more successful than I am, it is simply because she is better at whatever she does than me, she also likely had to jump through more hoops than I would have had to jump through to attain the same level of success, so not only is she more successful, she is also probably a harder worker.</p> <p>What exactly makes me a bigot again? Everything I have said supports my views. Everything that doesn't has been assumed about me or extrapolated from my sometimes vague claims.</p> <p>"I notice "thegoodman" is still using electricity, and thus benefiting from the work of someone so morally bankrupt as to have a medical condition"</p> <p>WTF are you talking about. I have never said anything even remotely similar to this in any way, shape or form. I know its a good time to bash me and "make an manxample" of me, but doing so dishonestly is ridiculous. Bash me for my ignorance, but please stop making things up just because you think its fun to jump on the pile.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313568&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="x3CDWBdqxCXryVzts10ZcH31lBbezpAMvdFRcxebRuE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313568">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313569" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276599899"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here is where I got my definitions of equity and gender feminism<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism</a></p> <p>Here is where I got my definition of individualist feminism<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism</a></p> <p>I also want to point out that extremely obese people are not a minority. Being grossly overweight is not a natural condition for 99% of the people who are morbidly obese. It is very simply the result of calories in vs. calories out. They consume far too many calories in a day to maintain a healthy weight. </p> <p>Similar to the way that an alcoholic consumes far too much alcohol in a day to remain sober. Many people may have the predisposition to be an alcoholic (there are hereditary links to alcoholism) but that doesn't mean they should have an excuse when they show up to work drunk as hell.</p> <p>People who are hereditarily predisposed to be obese need to show extra restraint when consuming food. They need to be more active than a person who doesn't have their disadvantage and they need to consume less calories. Why do these people get a free pass when alcoholics do not? I don't think they should get a free pass.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313569&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WyeRBhCZBUN9SbWXcSPM934LRNmCi0IeLHxtEvYD2Ik"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313569">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313570" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276600128"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Thegoodman", you stated quite clearly that I am a risk, therefore should not be working. Naturally, then, you would not want to be using the results of my oh-so-risky work sanctioned by an employer who chooses such sub-par employees. So turn off your electricity. You are very likely using my work as we speak.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313570&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AVAS5lFKfhef4ITFGnF6H7kuxh-UBxZc3TJaWKzqM0c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313570">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313571" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276601451"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"therefore should not be working."</p> <p>This assumption isn't logical at all. All employees have certain risk factors involved. My wife is a medical doctor, there is a risk that I may choose to simply stop working any day because we could live on a single income. You should be working. You have the right to work as much as anyone does. I just think that an employer should have the right to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages of any employee, and if an employer thinks that your qualifications exceed the risk, terrific. If not, move on to the next opportunity. I never said anything about anyone that is obese or with a medical condition shouldn't work, I simply said it is a risk to be evaluated during an interview.</p> <p>Medical conditions that prevent you from working your obligated hours of work per week make you a risk. This isn't an opinion and it isn't bigoted, it is a fact.</p> <p>"Do you want employees that sign up for 40 hrs a week but can only work 30 hrs a week?"</p> <p>What sane employer would say yes to this question? If all of your employees get paid for 40 hrs of work each week, why in the hell would an employer choose an employee that can only work 30 hours yet still receive 40 hours of pay? It has nothing to do with women, discrimination, or any other factor, businesses exist to make money. Employees that pose a risk to not showing up to work are high risk employees and will most likely not be chosen if an equally qualified candidate does not have that risk.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313571&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4E4Qa0alWGcIeE-6soKYvSy7ijQilQdNVxrIZ5fWa48"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313571">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313572" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276602527"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Medical conditions that prevent you from working your obligated hours of work per week make you a risk. This isn't an opinion and it isn't bigoted, it is a fact.</i></p> <p>As far as I know, a person's weight is not considered a "medical condition". </p> <p><i>I just think that an employer should have the right to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages of any employee, and if an employer thinks that your qualifications exceed the risk, terrific.</i></p> <p>Title I and Title V of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, as amended (ADA) prohibits employment discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities in the private sector, and in state and local governments and Sections 501 and 505 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 prohibits discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities who work in the federal government. </p> <p>Title II of the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act of 2008 (GINA) prohibits employment discrimination based on genetic information about an applicant, employee, or former employee. </p> <p>So, no, thegoodman, the employer does not have some unfettered right to "weigh out" (nice choice of words) the advantages and disadvantages of some prospective employees medical conditions. If you are using someone's weight as a proxy to determine if they are harboring some disability or illness so that you can discriminate against them in hiring or other covered employment practices, then, douchenozzle, you are breaking federal law. </p> <p>Or if, as I suspect and stated upthread, you are just disgusted by people carrying a few extra pounds, because you believe in the Almighty Power of Self Will To Control Uncontrollable Lusts And Desires That Other Subhumans Are Subject To But Not Me, there's no point in trying to carry on a conversation with you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313572&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xa-ZMhSVDVnrxCdgTdHVHRFc8GxR2eetvkVkQtAw8fg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313572">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313573" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276603088"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Or if, as I suspect and stated upthread, you are just disgusted by people carrying a few extra pounds, because you believe in the Almighty Power of Self Will To Control Uncontrollable Lusts And Desires That Other Subhumans Are Subject To But Not Me, there's no point in trying to carry on a conversation with you."</p> <p>Bingo. i'd take it a step further and say that it's most likely exclusively (or very nearly exclusively) women who get these lectures about how their looks are an affront to his tender privileged bigot opinions. You know, cuz he *cares* so much about their health. </p> <p>I wonder if there are any pictures online of the obviously physically perfect and totally healthy the-so-totally-not-even-remotely-good-bigot</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313573&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XuMUS--Ft-gNmM9YzmVAQ5cSXkDzLMRdQ_cMXVxGsZ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313573">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313574" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276603490"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>They have health issues and pose a risk to their employers and if I were a highering (sic) manager, it isn't a risk I would be willing to take.</i> </p> <p>Right, so clearly my employers don't meet your standards of conduct, so clearly you should not be using the product of such people. So quit already. Turn off your electricity.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313574&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hQTyXYMNxs3luFrSF09xjnenTVkRNrY-npUc6JAqV5c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313574">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313575" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276603915"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If my, or anyone's, body offends thegoodman, a simple solution is available: he can look away. If that means he spends a lot of time looking at his own shoes, it's still his choice. </p> <p>This would also give them time to consider the difference between their own shoes, which they can choose for aesthetic reasons (assuming that they have enough money that the choice isn't down to whatever is cheapest at Payless or the charity shop), and actual human beings, who do not exist for their entertainment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313575&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rMUK2zbErPBi97jfY2-x8AnZlTroe44zdW2pwFWJDk8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313575">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313576" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276605797"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, Zuska, for the reminder that at least for now there are protections in place that would prevent GoodD00d's world from becoming a reality. Because the ultimate implications of a world in which there were no consequences for businesses that discriminated against disabled or otherwise marginalized prospective employees would be that such people would find it increasingly difficult to become employed. He says cheerfully "move on to the next opportunity" when addressing someone who might have trouble finding "the next opportunity" if it weren't for social and legal pressure for businesses to do exactly the opposite of what you advocate. </p> <p>Ignorance caused by unexamined privilege.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313576&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="U9kjpq9MlYKjZWwkJnvXV1lqu8BNbS5vlpuF7Ta-0Ro"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313576">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313577" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276606055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Ignorance caused by unexamined privilege."</p> <p>In this case, ignorance seems to benign a word. He has stated that he see nothing wrong with denying a specific group of people the means to make a living simply because he's decided, sans anything but his own belief in his superiority, that they don't deserve it. This is sinister and cruel in addition to being ignorant. If he's also the sort of bigot that is against social programs, he's really advocating a much more sinister reality.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313577&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uuU3O71rx7y5AG2vf5CQPSkUXiSvrLwioll6uETsoB8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313577">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313578" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276606058"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Actually, in my case it's a great way to sort out the employers who are not worth having. I can't help snickering when those who employ bigots suddenly find they can't get the talent they need because we've all gone elsewhere with less bigotry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313578&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3ZJxpTseYD4ws7YNl6_FCR3VpBgfSosyW9E9MZTOc70"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313578">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313579" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276606288"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>(That should read <i>if it weren't for social and legal pressure for businesses to do exactly the opposite of what HE advocates.</i> Sorry.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313579&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8_nCTcU8lkNmTDYhYSVJmY-eUbS6p6DzC4b7HI5uPIs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313579">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313580" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276606871"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, Endor, what you said. He's all for it when it works in his favor (anyone somehow unlike what he thinks he is must be less worthy of a job than he is), but when his position works against him, suddenly he's barfing up the loopholes instead of maintaining his principles by <i>turning off his electricity already.</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313580&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8dHd1DWk9T0Fd0RSTHwQLGbxJXhHgNy05ed9Q7UNX-E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313580">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313581" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276607284"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Again, many words put into my mouth.</p> <p>"you are just disgusted by people carrying a few extra pounds"<br /> I have continually used the words EXTREMELY OBESE over and over again on purpose. Extreme obesity is akin to alcoholism and drug addiction and equally detrimental to one's health.</p> <p>"The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) makes it unlawful to discriminate in employment against a qualified individual with a disability."</p> <p>If that individual is incapable of performing their duties due to their condition, they are not a qualified individual.</p> <p>"Right, so clearly my employers don't meet your standards of conduct, so clearly you should not be using the product of such people. So quit already. Turn off your electricity."</p> <p>Apparently your disability doesn't prevent you from performing the duties of your job. Wonderful, terrific, congratulations. You situation is not one we are discussing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313581&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8FgzR5c1PJBa9gMU1Rwfnxvh6jnhCeBE0mvIWrYGl0I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313581">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313582" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276607715"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>In this case, ignorance seems to benign a word.</i></p> <p>I agree. Given that he demanded that we only address his ignorance rather than the other character flaws that he's been demonstrating on this blog, I wanted to frame my statement in terms of ignorance. The ignorance caused by unexamined privilege is, I think, the foundation from which it becomes acceptable to consider entire groups of people sub-human and thus undeserving of respect -- or empathy.</p> <p>And I suppose it's not only the ignorance but the investment in one's own privilege that leads one to see the Other as less-than-human in order to avoid recognizing one's own privileged position. It's pretty damning that he compared his own situation:</p> <p><i>All employees have certain risk factors involved. My wife is a medical doctor, there is a risk that I may choose to simply stop working any day because we could live on a single income.</i></p> <p>...to that of someone who poses a "risk" to their employers because of something that is entirely beyond the employee's control. I don't believe that obesity is entirely "calories in, calories out" <i>but even if it is</i> thegoodman has stated that he also sees no problem with a company refusing to hire someone with a chronic condition like RA or MS etc. And this is, in his mind, <i>comparable</i> to the fact that he might seem to be a risky hire to an employer because he doesn't actually need to earn a living, and thus might quit.</p> <p>What a large quantity of unexamined privilege.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313582&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="klNWPsxiVcACZHfkcWevvNp2QACQf0JPS5i0Ha41s7Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313582">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313583" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276608393"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thegoodman- You are claiming to know things that scientists are really far from knowing. You have no evidence that "99%" are fat because their eating habits don't fit with what you consider good nutrition. Then you used the naturalistic fallacy. Metabolism is the sum of ALL catabolic and anabolic processes inside the human body. I mean jesus dude, look at how complicated the "simplified" version of CELL (as in ONE cell) metabolism is:</p> <p><a href="http://www.exrx.net/Images/Biochemical/Simplified.gif">http://www.exrx.net/Images/Biochemical/Simplified.gif</a></p> <p>We don't have the big picture figured out at all. People are trying to sort it out. Genuine curiosity about the truth is what drives that sort of science. You are obviously not genuinely interested in finding out how anything actually works. </p> <p>You just don't know what you are talking about. It is ok, we cannot all be experts in everything. Let go of the superiority you so enjoy by pretending to know things you don't, because you should feel like a fool for going on at length about stuff you know absolutely nothing about.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313583&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FhV5cgN4ou5CDY6BVef2HnBS3SpiLdfNfTlgMDKNFNE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313583">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313584" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276608678"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Actually, "thegoodman", I am exactly who you've been talking about, as your own words make clear: <i>"They have health issues and pose a risk to their employers and if I were a highering (sic) manager, it isn't a risk I would be willing to take."</i> I have health issues, therefore my employer does not live up to your standards, therefore you should not dirty yourself by using anything we produce.</p> <p>All your BS about being able to perform the job is just backtracking so that you don't actually have to live up to the repercussions of your own statements, which would involve <i>turning off your electricity already.</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313584&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fWzk2H-vSC_hiR8NWmzoL9taV3CWYO8w0U3XwT4H8Vw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313584">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313585" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276608940"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If a company is hiring a crane operator, they certainly have the right to not hire someone with MS.</p> <p>If a company is hiring someone to work in Accounts Payable, they have no right to not hire someone simply because they have MS (morally or under federal law).</p> <p>I am not saying that someone whose spouse earns a large income has the same disadvantages as someone with a debilitating disease, I am not actually insane. I am saying that in the eyes of an employer any and all risk that might make an employee less attractive to the position must be considered.</p> <p>Many (most) jobs have some sort of physical requirement that must be met. If you job is painting and the company interviewing you has 1000 ladders all rated for 350lbs, but you weigh 500 lbs, should that painting company be required to not consider your weight in the hiring process? This was a rhetorical question, if you said yes you are crazy.</p> <p>"I don't believe that obesity is entirely "calories in, calories out" but even if it is..."</p> <p>It is. It is a fact. It is also a fact that obesity is unhealthy and leads to countless health problems. If you choose to not believe it, it doesn't make it not true.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313585&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1RiuJC8ORDS29r_Y1pAlYeUO86wbItzRAoPpZIzhv3U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313585">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313586" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276609307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And, "Thegoodman," your choosing to believe it doesn't make it true, either. Its truth or nontruth is independent of opinion. Unfortunately for you, you are doing nothing but spouting off opinionated talking points that are not backed up by science.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313586&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-FlxSCOYD7rUmNV9fKGNlyAQ9T_M8EYoWMCFo91VMvA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lu (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313586">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313587" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276609525"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Somebody feed "thegoodman" a tapeworm and an overdose of thyroxin.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313587&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UFfmyEG4N2bmDV_hpctKFcBpvgcioYc04jDiM9V7wpw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313587">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313588" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276609565"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, sorry for responding to Thegoodman. I just realized how off-topic his bloviating is and remembered how interesting the original topic was.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313588&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LRwqoMZZRFK_NDAPsCKlfx_lR1elotiGkvlwT-kmIqE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lu (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313588">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313589" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276611382"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"not backed up by science."</p> <p>Google Obesity and read the first 20 links. Most of them are scientific references that show the negative effects of obesity.</p> <p><a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2010-06-15-dietaryguidelines16_ST_N.htm">http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2010-06-15-dietaryguidel…</a></p> <p>This particular article title will hopefully get your attention.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313589&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uFpZ-IjMvxHC4FnC3kXRV1-mufG-VAPSzF0pvpm49zo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313589">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313590" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276611726"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"It is. It is a fact. It is also a fact that obesity is unhealthy and leads to countless health problems. If you choose to not believe it, it doesn't make it not true."</p> <p>LOL. I guess by "facts" he means whatever Dr. Oz tells him are facts. Because there are no facts, as they are traditionally defined, in anything he's said. </p> <p>That said, I would love for this pompous bigot to go tell the far more intelligent people at Shapely Prose about his "facts". I'd love to watch the evisceration he'd receive. They would def show him what use his "facts" are to reality.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313590&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y4gZ1C2RyL3MkNf34q0bR_ug8PADYdHxO2YKnIF76Sk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313590">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313591" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276611982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>O.M.G. he's using USA TODAY as his source. LOL. </p> <p>This is a class issue as well. But I suppose Mr. White Straight Well off Male Privilege here will argue with that too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313591&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OsOtjFoPVzkEW8rsoLurU0q40P23J8GyTah1SCTwSYc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313591">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313592" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276612105"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, yes, the peer-reviewed reportage of USA Today.</p> <p>I said "not backed up" for a reason. The problem here is not mine, for not paying "attention." There are also many scientific references that show no appreciable negative effect of obesity on health, and some that show a positive effect. I am not going to use this space to argue this point with you. I suggest that you Google "fat acceptance" and familiarize yourself with some of the more reputable blogs on the subject. Certainly your knee-jerk reaction will be to say that any blog that bills itself as a fat acceptance site is untrustworthy, but you will in fact find there scientific citations, and discussion among actual fat scientists (scientists who are fat). No, I'm not going to name those sites for you, because I don't want to feel responsible for anything you might say there. And the search will do you good.</p> <p>Your continued insistence that fat people need to be blamed and that it's reasonable to penalize them (by not hiring them) for being fat is tiresome and a far, far more pedestrian and uninformed opinion than you seem to realize. Please note that next time you explain weight gain and weight loss as "calories in/calories out," this is the very definition of a cliche. Human beings are not Bunsen burners.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313592&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5tto8rSktPyggi8pRFRaikjery-RqeHfIg4iKHsqPg4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lu (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313592">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313593" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276621471"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If it was calories in vs calories out then the type of food eaten would not have any effect, and it does. You can look up "rabbit starvation" and other macro-nutrient deficiencies whenever you want, if you don't believe me. There is a mysterious correlation with midsection fat as well (where people who carry their weight elsewhere seem to not have the cardiac/insulin resistance problems linked with fat in geneeral). So where your fat forms is somehow relevant, and the cause of fat forming in different sections of the body rather than others is also not well understood. If you end up using your calories now or storing them (in the various forms that different fuels can be stored in, it isn't just fat) is also a matter of personal biochemistry. That also determines how able your body will be to absorb nutrients. There are several separate hormonal sequences associated with digestion and eating, not to mention things like hunger/satiety and behavior. The baseline of calories out for different people is extremely diverse and does not reflect anything about their character. Hell, it doesn't even tend to stay the same from hour to hour. Most people do experience a slow decline over time, making weight gain almost a certainty. How able a person is to form skeletal muscles is another big complicated biochemical mess of factors to sort out, and can be a factor in obesity (or not, for some people). How much this has to do with genetics is not certain. Thyroid hormones can be a cause of obesity, but a person needs health insurance and money to investigate that as a cause of their weight gain, unless the doctor just tells them to eat less (many do). People who are obese are much more likely to lack those things. Cushing syndrome causes obesity. Certain kinds of steroids cause obesity. Contrary to popular belief, some times cancer causes bodily changes that result in obesity rather than waif body types. And like I mentioned before, this whole time your cells are doing all kinds of crazy shit to glucose to create ATP for energy, and other cells are building up tissue at the same time, so that the balance is in constant motion and is freakishly complex. Any person could starve themselves to death (or down to your standards), but that does not mean they have self control or motivation or anything else. I know that when I was a dieter I started having problems where I would get random infections and any cuts or scrapes I got would take ages to heal. My white blood cell count was fucked up, and my crit wasn't in the problematic range but was way lower than it is now (went from 37 to 43). I felt like shit. I was eating healthy, but not nearly enough. My lab work looks about a thousand times better since I quit dieting about a year ago, and my blood pressure/cardiac risk/diabetes risk has not changed. These numbers represent actual risk in conjunction with each other. Weight is only one number. Though the screening process may be prompted by weight, only a supremely lazy doctor would announce risk based on obesity alone. </p> <p>There are risks associated with literally every body type imaginable. Obesity has a correlation with cardiac problems and diabetes. That does not mean everyone who is obese will develop those problems. It does not mean that just being obese by itself causes those problems. It does not mean that non obese people do not suffer these problems. The correlation of cardiac risk with eating well and exercise is much more meaningful than the obesity one (and NO, exercise and healthy food does not prevent obesity). Obesity and overweight people are actually much more likely to SURVIVE their cardiac episode than their skinny counterparts. People of normal weight tend to not do as well in general on hospital stays. Almost no one loses weight and keeps it off for more than 5 years (I think it sits at 2%), so unless 98% of people are just irreversibly fucked up and lazy there is more to this story than you are willing to admit. In addition to the things I mentioned above, thin people are also much more likely to have bone density issues as they age. That also correlates with being white and female, but I bet you wouldn't cop to descriminating on those grounds. </p> <p>You wanna know why USA Today doesn't print that? Because the science explanation is boring and uncertain and it makes it harder for advertisers to sell food OR dieting aids.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313593&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fqXtg0HpUzWrHd6iLLCpB8evWC2m0etCxzkiu0b96jQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313593">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313594" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276639702"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"eating well and exercise"</p> <p>Most people will not be obese if they do these 2 things. There are certainly exceptions to this but most people assume they are an exception because they don't have to stop eating McDonalds every day.</p> <p>The USA Today article is just an example. It is humorous that I am made out to be a moron for posting a reputable newspaper article and then told to read some pro-fat people blogs as an authentic reference. As I said in the post, there are countless scientific and medical references that directly link obesity with many health issues that can be found quickly and easily.</p> <p>Not for 1 second have I said that thin people are necessarily healthy or that a few extra pounds makes a person unhealthy. The only thing I have said is that being extremely obese puts you at an enormous health risk when compared to a person who is not. As I have said before, my wife is a medical doctor and she is very interested in nutrition as well as exercise. We both work out regularly, neither of us ever "diet", but we do eat healthy food and don't take any supplements. Neither of us is skinny but we wouldn't be described as fat either. I have actually read a lot about health and nutrition and have a surprisingly good grasp on a healthy diet an lifestyle for a bigoted 27 yr old white male.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313594&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_rI1ydhutfLj5C9I3bOaB7-JEXQ2-muibFX6ZOFuZLI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 15 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313594">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313595" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276661723"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I realize this is a foolish thing to do, but for some reason feel compelled to do it anyway:</p> <p>Thegoodman, ask your MD wife about the peptide hormone shifts that result from Roux-en-Y vs. lap band vs. biliopancreatic diversion vs. jejunoileal bypass vs. sleeve gastrectomy + duodenal switch and their various effects on weight loss compared to cholesterol, heart risk and inflammation markers. </p> <p>Hint: If she doesn't know, she may wish to take a CME or three on the subject. It's kinda important.</p> <p>Also, son, google "Dunning-Kruger" while you're reading. Then feel free to come back here and tell <i>actual scientists who work on this subject</i> all about why "diet and exercise" will work for everybody, perfectly, every time.</p> <p>You're welcome.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313595&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ytzyDEhNzmT8431JntTAsCBNL7LZHuDFiT2OpI-wXRc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Big Blue (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313595">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313596" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276671314"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>*applause for Big Blue* I hardly expect such a pompous bigot to recognize when his ass has been handed to him (since he clearly hasn't recognized it yet), but well done anyways. </p> <p>+++</p> <p>"I have actually read a lot about health and nutrition and have a surprisingly good grasp on a healthy diet an lifestyle for a bigoted 27 yr old white male."</p> <p>Better show us some pictures. Submit yourself to the same treatment you dole out on other, Mr. big brave privileged douche. Let us critique your looks and make asinine sweeping statements based on nothing but what we decide at that moment must be true because we think its true, bigot. Make with the proof that you're so incredibly perfect you get to decide, despite having absolutely no understanding of the topic, who's healthy and who isn't, or who works out and who doesn't, etc. </p> <p>It's amusing that you blunder on totally oblivious to how wrong you are. Of course an inadequate, shallow source is totally valid! Of course you claim to have evidence that you magically can't produce. Of course we just hate your penis. Dude- you are comedy gold.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313596&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6VtCQz22UmtFbHOTOTgSFQzQivATp0Ik6-GGY9TpKL8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313596">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313597" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276672692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Thegoodman" is a stunning example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, isn't he? At basic reasoning, at science, at basic knowledge of human metabolism, at feminism. </p> <p>I notice he's still not willing to follow through on, well, anything he says. No pictures. No turning off the electricity brought to him by people who violate his principles. No actual sense, just ignorance repeated loudly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313597&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wPc1atJiq_O6NvMKT06x1MCd6YesQAVuhwk7PQ1Qy8E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313597">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313598" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276677315"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And, as predicted---as I predicted within a very few words after I mentioned them---Mr. "I'm practically a doctor because my wife is one" rejects out-of-hand the recommendation of reading on size-acceptance sites for the very reason I said he would. Despite my saying that Actual Scientific Discussion of Scientific Studies goes on there. He has no idea that the very medium he is touting as a reasonable source is the very reason why he's spouting his ridiculously over-simplified take on obesity. Bro, that information you've been spoon-fed is not accurate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313598&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZOdMD64QLSJjVtnPke9zs03-dsBIMDco-Exgfwn1tqc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lu (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313598">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313599" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276680646"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As a former 27 year old male, who also knows several former 27 year old males, and some current 27ish males, I would like to say the following:</p> <p>pretty much any 27ish year old male thinks he 'reads a lot about nutrition' and thinks he 'has a good grasp of a healthy diet and lifestyle', even when it is abundantly clear he drinks/smokes/eats/drugs himself into poor health AND has poor sitting posture and lifts with his back not his legs.</p> <p>Anyone who seriously thinks obesity is as simple as in/out has a problem understanding the science, or they are seriously over-simplifying.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313599&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ioG4UHNNw9eMsHV03Ix2fTuWRFjt0z2RXyRDtd_k7xY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dedj (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313599">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313600" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276683283"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why are there so many more obese people than there were a generation or two ago? For medical reasons?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313600&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ol9hB7XRKhkh9iecQ5XbFswPD5jR-v3DxV-5OCiEt0E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313600">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313601" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276684517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Why are there so many more obese people than there were a generation or two ago? For medical reasons?"</p> <p>Apparently because those damn feminists took women out of the kitchen: <a href="http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/why_dont_women_cook_as_much_as_they_used_to/">http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/why_dont_women_cook_as_much…</a></p> <p>Actually pandagon's section on food issues is an excellent read: <a href="http://pandagon.net/index.php/C73/">http://pandagon.net/index.php/C73/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313601&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kj4WkgtHXLkAgzg4W83zg_IoG_r-reL74DCURzx6Uww"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313601">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313602" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276686753"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One thing I have realized through dealing with my own depression through diet, is the deceptiveness of RDAs and other baseline measures for nutrition. When I'm depressed, I will test for normal levels of various vitamin B's, but if I get quite a bit more than "normal," my depression is lessened a good deal. What does the RDA mean to me? Squat. The Feds can recommend whatever random number they want. I'll take what I actually need. And that small example of the difference between population studies and the anecdotal evidence of the individual plays out over and over in nutrition. It doesn't matter what the curve is; it matters where you fall on the curve. Each of us has to find out what we need to be what we define as healthy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313602&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qNP2wBhIvqYo0RznT6y-TKLOd04gPoKxkRW10KnzRhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Yvonne (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313602">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313603" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276689663"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have never said I was perfect nor do I think I will ever be perfect.</p> <p>I also never said that health is simply calories in and calories out. Health is complex and there are countless factors involved that are outside of a person's control. However, their weight is not outside of their control. Obese people are more often than not, unhealthy. So many of you continuously take my words as absolutes so you can "hand my ass to me". Clearly there are exceptions to everything. Some fat ass people are healthy as an ox and some fit people are extremely unhealthy. Just because there are exceptions to the fit vs. fat debate doesn't mean we should dodge the bigger issue. Most obese people are at an enormous risk of many health problems.</p> <p>Here are some of the scientific links that many of you say don't exist.<br /><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=childhood-obesity-still-a-problem">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=childhood-obesity-stil…</a><br /><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=overeating-alone-explains-obesity-e-09-05-14">http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=overeating-alo…</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promoting-healthy-lifestyles/obesity.shtml">http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promo…</a><br /><a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promoting-healthy-lifestyles/obesity/childhood-obesity.shtml">http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promo…</a></p> <p>"Obesity kills more Americans every year than AIDS, all cancers, and all accidents combined."</p> <p>Apparently many of you are more intelligent and have done more medical studies than the American Medical Association since you claim that being obese doesn't make you unhealthy. JAMA also has some good publications on the adverse effects of obesity.</p> <p>@Big Blue<br /> Stop being pretentious. Just say "different bariatric surgery" options instead of listing all of their medical names to impress people. Also, Jejunoileal Bypass hasn't been done since the 1970's so it is essentially irrelevant. My wife isn't a surgeon (she works in Radiation Oncology) but she doesn't believe that bariatric surgery should be an option for overweight patients. Obesity is an issue with self control and a person's ability to know what to eat and when to stop eating, bariatric surgery doesn't fix either of these problems. It is a temporary fix that will likely result in a loss of weight, but over the long term, many patients regain their weight. Surgery is dangerous the the possibility of infection isn't worth the risk, in my opinion, of lose the weight unnaturally. Many doctors have differing opinions on bariatric surgeries and my wife is on the side that they are not a solution, simply a band-aid.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313603&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XVJKLB1iO-12daBbOE7K0jsNCCEWlIIakWqI2dTNMWQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313603">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313604" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276695199"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pfft, I deal with enough bullshit at work where extremely wrong doctors insist that they are right because they are a *doctor* and I only work there. Did you know that magical doctory goodness means that they cut in lines and think it is justified? Every suboordinate I know has a story about that. I am not down with that unearned authority bullshit being done to me 2nd hand, via the internet. Hell no.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313604&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GRpDo9cCHYl2GmvC9minDSlmra6JmgBVkCq84lNwO50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313604">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313605" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276699503"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Neither you nor your convenient wife are surgeons, but yet you're absolute authorities on bariatric surgery. LOL of course. </p> <p>Thanks for the links. You apparently didn't bother to read them before you posted them. They don't quite support the "just exercise and eat less" bullshit you're now pretending you didn't say. </p> <p>And, you flat out fucking liar, no one said the links didn't exist. *I* said you never provided them. And until today that was true. In fact, at least one person pointed you toward a site that deals with exactly that and is - GASP - an FA site. But, keep playing the poor put upon victim bullshit. It amuses me. </p> <p>Did you happen to look at the Pandagon links that, you know, actually deal with WHY people are heavier than they were decades ago? Did you happen to visit Shapely Prose for some 101 information? Have you done anything but waste everyone's time bigotry and now transparent backpeddaling?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313605&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AhV7V3vV7S5Inzk_daU-92_oRE7WckG7-3aWYWsqO-4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313605">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313606" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276700038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For the audience:</p> <p><a href="http://jezebel.com/5356697/fat-vs-fiction">http://jezebel.com/5356697/fat-vs-fiction</a></p> <p>one of the money quotes:</p> <p>"According to the [second] study, obesity and extreme obesity cause about 112,000 deaths per year, but being overweight was found to prevent about 86,000 deaths annually. Based on those figures, the net U.S. death toll from excess weight is 26,000 per year. By contrast, researchers found that being underweight results in 34,000 deaths per year."</p> <p>BUT BEING FAT WILL KEEEEEELLLLL YOOUUU!!!11!!1!!</p> <p>Debunking the absolutely worthless "just diet" horseshit:</p> <p> <a href="http://kateharding.net/2009/02/26/all-diets-work-the-same-poorly/">http://kateharding.net/2009/02/26/all-diets-work-the-same-poorly/</a></p> <p>Healthy at Any Size: <a href="http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar06/health0306.htm">http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar06/health0306.htm</a> </p> <p>And those are just from the frigging FAQ, ffs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313606&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5APJHNACMkV4Gs8bICz8C7gw1CqqKa-6OX78vqRic_s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313606">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313607" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276700900"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hey Thegoodman: Fuck. Off.</p> <p><a href="http://www.bodylovewellness.com/2010/06/16/kai-hibbard-biggest-loser-finalist-part-2-of-3/">And I tell you what, at 144 and at 262 and at 280, I had never hated my body before that show.<br /></a> </p> <p>A finalist on Biggest Loser tells everyone what Thegoodman's fat hatred leads to.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313607&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6ylrjgC73uvdahHaHtVusjgjp1hE1utY-d3I1cnPscQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Yvonne (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313607">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313608" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276701979"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Skeptifem<br /> I am sorry you do not trust doctors. I am not sure why you do not or how you can say their expertise gives them an "unearned authority". A doctor's education is rigorous and thorough and most of them will admit they do not know everything there is to know about the body. What they do know however, is far more than people who are not medical doctors.</p> <p>@Endor<br /> You seem to be confusing my wife's opinions with "absolute authorities on bariatric surgery". I never said either of us was an authority on anything, someone asked my opinion and I gave it.</p> <p>I also haven't resorted to any childish name calling like man of you have nor have I said anything negative about any one of you in particular. My gender feminist claims are more apparent with every one of you that calls me names despite me not actually typing anything negative about any of you.</p> <p>What am I back-peddaling from again? I stand by my original posts on the topic and I am not retracting any of my words. I am also not a victim of anything, nor have I claimed to be. I know what I am getting into when posting on a gender feminist blog and your responses are very interesting to me. I only asked that people stop putting words in my mouth or making outrageous assumptions about me simply because these things have snowballed and completely undermined my posts.</p> <p>I just read some of the NAAFA website. According to the website, I am definitely discriminatory of obese people (not a few extra pounds). The NAAFA supports the notion that being extremely overweight is not a matter of "poor self-discipline and willpower". I think that it is. There are a million scientific studies that show both sides of this opinion and doctors and scientists that are on opposite sides of the issue.</p> <p>"Did you happen to look at the Pandagon links that, you know, actually deal with WHY people are heavier than they were decades ago? Did you happen to visit Shapely Prose for some 101 information?"<br /> I did. I don't see how it is relevant. What I am talking about has nothing to do with men or women or feminism.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313608&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cT_Wr7c-M_Jq37x_ojct4uaXVrBkAAWpsJUjHaQNvBE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313608">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313609" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276704391"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Because many aspects of a person and their life circumstances (including but not limited to: gender, meatbolism, health, income, education, etc., etc., etc.) intersect to lead to all kinds of outcomes. See <a href="http://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/lifestyles-of-the-4x-poverty-set/">here</a> for a graphical illustration.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313609&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z3DiHjN_VLfOsu8auxEr2LF8BfIeK6ESbQ775fmdwls"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313609">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313610" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276705273"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One thing you could do for starters is to stop using that damn "gender feminism" phrase. It was coined by notorious anti-feminist and MRA Christina Hoff Sommers. She uses the term to suggest that there's a group of crazy women who hate all men and don't want "equality" but actually want men to be oppressed (hence the either/or of gender feminism vs. equality feminism). Rather, from what I have read, most of the feminism on Zuska's blog is simply unapologetic feminism -- that alone is enough to offend many, but really, why should anyone have to sugar-coat the notion that women are not treated as fully human <i>and should be</i>? On the other hand, Hoff Sommers is well known for her belief that actually men are now becoming the oppressed class. Excuse me while I snort in derision. Using her terminology on this blog is an immediate red flag to any of us that you don't actually respect feminism.</p> <p>You seem to feel that because you are male the women here will disagree with anything you say. However, there are several male posters who frequent Zuska's blog and are treated with the respect their views deserve. You may also have noticed that commenters aren't shy to call out the views of other women when they perceive those views -- or the articulation of those views -- to be offensive, problematic, or ignorant. Part of the reason I frequent this blog is to keep myself aware of where my own privilege interferes with my ability to empathize and respect the experiences of others. You've been repeatedly told that certain statements you've made are offensive because of the unexamined privilege they display. Yet you have categorically refused to examine your privilege or apologize for the hurtful things you've said -- or simply apologize for <i>inadvertently</i> saying something offensive.</p> <p>You believe that you are the expert on what feminism is -- among so many other areas of "expertise" that it's dizzying to realize just how informed and how much of an authority you clearly believe you are. However, there are people writing here who actually work in the field you are discussing. The least you could do is acknowledge that they may have an understanding that surpasses yours or information to which you are not privy.</p> <p>And on feminism and what is and is not a feminist issue -- that is not for you to decide. Society's perception of obese women is more negative than society's perception of obese men -- hence the disparity in wage noted above. Partly because of this, obesity IS a feminist issue. It is one more example of a situation in which women -- as an oppressed second class -- are treated <i>even worse</i> than the already poorly treated men who share their situation.</p> <p>Obese people -- like women, gays and lesbians, PoC, the working class -- are fully human and deserve respect. The tone you use to talk about the obese is not respectful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313610&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uSs3lupAFPA-wtiinjoRmFdHyBa1IYSWzK6V4YuRlGA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313610">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313611" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276705836"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The 27-year-old tidbit really does explain a lot. He's that guy at work that runs off at the mouth all the time and fails to realize everyone snickers behind his back because he sounds so utterly stupid.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313611&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Nksz97-HRzowyn6T3VqULCZqybk1dJ0MQ8vK48tzYR8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313611">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313612" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276708785"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Just say "different bariatric surgery" options instead of listing all of their medical names to impress people. Also, Jejunoileal Bypass hasn't been done since the 1970's so it is essentially irrelevant.</i></p> <p>This is WHY you are a dumbass. This is also why, if your wife actually believes this (I doubt it, but hey, remotely possible), she is a shitty doctor. </p> <p>Son, I will summarize for the hard-of-thinking and functionally illiterate such as yourself: These various surgeries remove <b>different parts</b> of the gut. Different parts of the gut digest different types of carbon sources. Also, very important, different parts of the gut secrete, and react to, different peptide hormones. Some of these hormones are endogenous (made by your very own body) while others are made by the cooties that live in your guts. Different kindsa cooties live in different parts of your guts, secreting different kindsa hormones all along the way. Not just one or two hormones, but a metric fuckload of different kinds of hormones. By removing just one part of the gut, or just two parts, we found out the hard way that these hormones even exist and their tissue specificity. </p> <p>"Specificity," that's a big word. It means, proteins in your body that only live in very particular kinds of cells. Maybe wifey can explain it to you. What it means, in a nutshell, is that one little bitty hormonal imbalance, one little genetic mishap, an imbalance in those cooties or maybe a die-off of cooties throws the whole system out of whack. Not majorly out of whack, but enough. </p> <p>What could cause such imbalances? No one fucking knows, frankly--there are a helluva lot of environmental steroid agonists these days, and some steroid agonists are right in the food supply, that's one. Highly processed food is another, tends to be a lot of "hidden" refined sugars in support of USAian ag subsidies. But with sensitivities such as have been reported in the literature (PubMed, son, PubMed--Scientific American is for the lay-folk) of these receptors and their ligands, just a wee little shift would be sufficient to produce a big effect. </p> <p>What exactly are you good at, Goodboy? This whole reading and writing thing is apparently a little beyond you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313612&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BrTym_zLVVgIgbC2HmYkwmpi-Awa_oRU63kwtNDN20c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Big Blue (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313612">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313613" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276710383"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Great post Comrade Svilova. </p> <p>While I agree that all humans deserve respect, I don't think obese people should be separated out as if they are a minority or some underprivileged class of society. </p> <p>Obesity is akin to alcoholism and drug abuse, a person is obese because they show no control or restraint when considering what they consume. I am and have been friends with alcoholics, drug addicts, and obese people. I may love them as friends and family members, but I do not respect their addiction and professionally I would not hire them unless their addiction had been cured. To respect gluttony is to approve of it, and I cannot approve of a person who knowingly harms their own body and shortens their lives against the wishes of their loved ones. Health is certainly complex,as many people have pointed out, and is more difficult to attain for some than it is for others. That doesn't mean they should just assume that if being healthy is difficult, they can throw in the towel. I respect obese people in that they are humans who are suffering from an affliction, but an affliction that is rectifiable if they choose it to be. What I do not respect are addicts who are in denial and attempt to justify their addiction.</p> <p>I am absolutely not an expert on feminism. The more I read about it the more complex it is. It is similar to Christianity in that there are a million different ideas as to what it is and each person subscribes to some but not all of the ideas behind it.</p> <p>I agree I am privileged. Which of my privileges am I ignorant of and what have I said that is hurtful and specifically due to my unexamined privilege?</p> <p>Being not obese is not a privilege just as not being a drug addict is not a privilege.</p> <p>I am not saying it is anyone's job to educated me, as many of you have told me already. I am saying that I enjoy this blog and I enjoy the information that I get from the various posts. I would like to continue doing so but hopefully with less conflict in the future.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313613&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rJeayY5W35D-dbUn7ONmXRZeImertA56fBadqMqQh9g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313613">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313614" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276710713"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Big Blue<br /> We are all impressed with your understanding of peptide hormones in the human body. Some people have issues that make them fat. We get it. What exactly does this have to do with anything?</p> <p>If so many people are fat because of their natural disposition, then why are so many people capable of losing weight when they make the simple decision to just do it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313614&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g1Wn7FS_1jnEsp61r8n37NHFWD6WtV4nLyQfOEr-X20"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313614">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313615" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276711161"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As a newcomer to this blog (I've read and enjoyed Zuska's posts from time to time but have never commented before this thread), may I just say that with every comment, Goodman proves himself less and less worthy of engagement? Really, all he's doing is recapitulating every "OMG OBESITY EPIDEMIC" ignorant-opinion-masquerading-as-reasoned-argument that can be found in virtually every other corner of the internet. I vote "ignore." At least, that's what I plan to do from now on.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313615&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OAtj8ICrDC9a2VQa7VvLPnXHugDRME23EZ2rYh5Qxq8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lu (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313615">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313616" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276711170"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Being not obese is not a privilege just as not being a drug addict is not a privilege.</i></p> <p>OK, that's not what "privilege" means as used here. You need to learn some basic terms from sociology before you can enter this discussion fruitfully. </p> <p>Also, likening feminism to a religion betrays more misunderstanding. </p> <p>I say this for those who are lurking along at home and may be wondering why thegoodman is being criticized here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313616&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W_6cQtgYQimndEf9ON6sHb8iS3_uFwpCafku_Ny91ys"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313616">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313617" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276714469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"likening feminism to a religion betrays more misunderstanding"</p> <p>Feminism is like a religion in that every one of you has a different definition of it and there are certain points of it that are more important to each individual. There are as many denominations of Christianity as there are types of feminism that people subscribe to.</p> <p>What I am not saying is that feminism is a belief system or some sort of mystical viewpoint, it certainly is not. I see it as a completely justified and validated social movement that has come a long way and still has a long way to go in getting its message out to everyone. The issues are real as are the victims.</p> <p>@Lu<br /> The obesity epidemic isn't alarmist propaganda, it is very real and as I've said, countless reputable publications support my claims.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313617&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FFEZd8XcQxssFsg02XfSyW1PocvuBrd9BTiMYNzVq0U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313617">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313618" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276715387"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I agree I am privileged. Which of my privileges am I ignorant of and what have I said that is hurtful and specifically due to my unexamined privilege?</i></p> <p>Allow me to translate for those at home:</p> <p><i>I will parrot what I think makes me sound like a good guy because I want to believe people should listen to my pompous maunderings. Ooo! I know! Then I'll pretend to ask a humble-sounding question in the hope it will fool really stupid people into thinking I believe any of this garbage. They'd have to be really thick not to notice that my question has already been answered, but maybe it will distract people into thinking I actually am playing along. I can't read, so clearly no one else can either, right?</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313618&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9XerWMv53eIEQYFA5GnMSRhyOEUCHnuTsF6HJwByYy8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313618">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313619" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276718274"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Yet you have categorically refused to examine your privilege or apologize for the hurtful things you've said -- or simply apologize for inadvertently saying something offensive."</p> <p>So big deal. The same goes for everyone who has harrassed me for defending lower class white people*, and I didn't hear you complain about it, though you did draw the line at describing me as childish. </p> <p>Not that I care, by hypocrisy stinks!</p> <p>*Especially those who are from a more privileged class than I am, like Jill Psmith and CPP.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313619&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="APsKXmIBfbSuLe0cKX-3pnkBR7q0ds_-SBE0vkS-Q74"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313619">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313620" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276722322"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Isabel, FFS, let off the ranting. You have no effing clue what 'class' is. There is such a thing, but I can assure you that it has NOTHING to do with how much money somebody has.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313620&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9_rbhpn4mKLZ6_GV8jZtGpZTh-Bz1vRQhawRcqRlDy0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313620">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313621" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276723554"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Obesity is akin to alcoholism and drug abuse, a person is obese because they show no control or restraint when considering what they consume...I do not respect their addiction and professionally I would not hire them unless their addiction had been cured. To respect gluttony is to approve of it, and I cannot approve of a person who knowingly harms their own body and shortens their lives against the wishes of their loved ones.</i></p> <p>I am grateful to have thegoodd00d more clearly articulate his disgust and prejudice so that all of us can understand how his "thinking" works. Obesity is like alcoholism and drug abuse! Which are totally just moral failings! And a lack of willpower! Which I, thegoodd00d, possess in spades - the morality, and the willpower! My wishes must be obeyed - if you want a job, so you can afford to eat (but not too much)!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313621&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="teknlem_RINA9EGuG_ITM7VEpzYoTEZvGS5ICB4bHwA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313621">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313622" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276725558"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Obesity is like alcoholism and drug abuse! Which are totally just moral failings! And a lack of willpower! Which I, thegoodd00d, possess in spades - the morality, and the willpower!</p></blockquote> <p>Exactly so. </p> <p>My hope for people who think like the goodd00d is that they are struck with a chronic disease that necessitates daily medication and causes a reduction in mobility, so they too can cope with the weight-gain side effects of medication and the frustration that comes with reduced mobility, and also that they get to be "fat" and get to experience what they're putting out there for others.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313622&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4qBjRBAr3H2IPqRc6ro-PDXwgKY7nzCPaAt_xfwyWkQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OleanderTea (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313622">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313623" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276725991"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BTW, one MAJOR issue to mention. </p> <p>Unlike alcoholism and drug addiction, treatment for overweight and obesity is NOT covered by most health insurance. In fact, many health insurance companies are not covering bariatric surgery any more, despite its high success rate not only in treating obesity, but also in treating diabetes, high blood pressure, and other diseases that come with obesity for some people. </p> <p>But it is much cheaper for insurance companies to send you flyers in the mail telling you to eat veg and exercise, without providing any assistance to doing so.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313623&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LYQf2sDDgA67h_oAbcYDEBr8-db1XOmFvfvL1UbTEe8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OleanderTea (not verified)</span> on 16 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313623">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313624" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276748701"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As Zuska points out, the problem is the black-and-white thinking of anyone who says that to respect equals to approve, and the sense that it even is one's own place to approve or disapprove of other people's situations. Thegoodman is talking morality and worthiness here, not simply talking about whether or not a certain individual will be able to perform a certain job.</p> <p>Most of the posters here understand that, although they may have a knee-jerk opinion about someone else, it is ultimately not their place to assume that they know that person's situation. Has the obese person you see in passing spent years trying to lose weight without success? Are they on meds that make weight loss extremely difficult? You don't know. I don't know. And to make an assumption that you <i>do</i> know is extremely offensive.</p> <p>And it is an instance of privilege running rampant. To assume that you know more about another person's situation than they do; to assume that you can judge their moral worth and their personality; and to assume that you know -- not only what they should do -- but what they have done and where and why they have "failed"; and all of these condescending assumptions are only possible if you exercise unearned privilege that tells you that you are better than other people. Hence their situation <i>must</i> be a result of their moral failure.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313624&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dHS6levygq-pO4Uy-8PKjXiXgGUeFl7IVuVKeOBOrh8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313624">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313625" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276759119"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>and the sense that it even is one's own place to approve or disapprove of other people's situations.</i></p> <p>Yes. And even more puzzling, thegoodman tells us contemptuously that <i>of course</i> there are <i>cases</i> where obesity is not just a lack of will, yet he remains confident in his "right" to deny employment based on appearance alone. How could he tell the difference between a fat person he deems just lazy and a fat person he grants has an unavoidable medical reason?</p> <p>And he wasn't just talking about obesity either. Any "health issue" is sufficient to keep a person who wants to work out of the workforce if employers don't feel like making the reasonable accommodations mandated by law.</p> <p>It's this sort of attitude that keeps the unemployment rate for Americans with disabilities/chronic illnesses so high, in spite of the ADA. </p> <p>And it's frighteningly clear that people who are not covered under the ADA (folks who are fat but have no illnesses or disabilities; people whose appearance is unacceptable to employers for other reasons that do not constitute a disability) are being shut out of work with no chance of legal recourse.</p> <p>(Note that I'm not sure that even people with ADA-covered disabilities truly have legal recourse in hiring discrimination, as employers can simply not say why they won't hire PWD.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313625&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PIHx8SautL_btO3Yui0nbvDqa6fs2XoTVHMEezuGDho"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313625">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313626" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276759339"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Damn. The links i posted never got posted. Poop. </p> <p>Well, suffice it so say, Kate harding knocks the shit out thecrapboy's bullshit. For the audience: google her and read, if you haven't already. </p> <p>++</p> <p>"all of these condescending assumptions are only possible if you exercise unearned privilege that tells you that you are better than other people. Hence their situation must be a result of their moral failure."</p> <p>Bingo. Which is why his calling himself a feminist is as big a joke as Palin calling herself one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313626&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="H0U5xlsfuGQ_DauZxAgcKhwH62eCP0MrRup9mUisXBA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313626">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313627" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276769331"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"129</p> <p>Isabel, FFS, let off the ranting. You have no effing clue what 'class' is. There is such a thing, but I can assure you that it has NOTHING to do with how much money somebody has.</p> <p>Posted by: Kea | June 16, 2010 11:05 PM<br /> "<br /> What a moronic, offensive comment. Unfucking believable!</p> <p>You grew up rich didn't you Kea? I remember you mentioning that. And you have no problem telling a person who grew up relatively poor that they have no idea what class is?</p> <p>You are bitter that you've fallen from that privileged position I suppose. So therefore socioeconomic differences do not exist. Or don't matter? Since it didn't help you. Riiiiight.</p> <p>Anyway "class has nothing to do with economics and rich people can be white trash" is on my bingo list. I just heard it over at Ed Brayton's place. They were very insistent over there that 'redneck' 'hick' yokel' 'cracker' and 'trailer park crack whore' (among other offensive pejoratives) were all acceptable terms to use on a liberal progressive blog, and had nothing to do with describing particular groups i.e. white, rural, lower class). They are just useful words when describing a particular person as an idiot and a bigot.</p> <p>Hahahaha.</p> <p>Yes there is another definition of 'class' though they are not totally unrelated.</p> <p>I'll switch to 'caste' if that helps you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313627&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UXz0cW0ilpXgcjdrYNZ4G4EEtdfMwTezDD8e4DSNVNg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313627">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313628" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276782026"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Kate harding knocks the shit out thecrapboy's bullshit"</p> <p>Its humorous that you list a blogger as a reputable source. I've just read her FAQ and many of the links there. I simply do not agree with her. Her fine arts degree doesn't make her any more of an expert in health than any one of us, so we are left to our opinions. My opinion is that she is providing information in a very biased manner and runs a very misleading sight.</p> <p>The fact is that doctors use weight as a fast and easy way to gauge health. Is this always accurate? Absolutely not. Is it accurate most of the time? Yes.</p> <p>By looking at Kate Harding, I wouldn't consider her fat.</p> <p>Her fat acceptance blog has gained her notoriety and I am sure she truly believes it, but Deepak Chopra also believes the ridiculousness he spews out on a daily basis. The great thing about the internet is that if you don't like something, you will always find someone somewhere who provides a few links to validate your opinions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313628&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1yU5xV-CG4FXDiufoz-DO6n2XtM2GWslJMiBaprY1mw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313628">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313629" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276795349"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thegoodman: <i>"The great thing about the internet is that if you don't like something, you will always find someone somewhere who provides a few links to validate your opinions."</i></p> <p>HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! </p> <p>So true, so true.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313629&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nrEyL6x8FmropE4WxmQOpE1BHiSIfTg1KFA4lNaXSM4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://ambivalentacademic.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ambivalent academic (not verified)</a> on 17 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313629">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313630" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276845307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I simply do not agree with her."</p> <p>Since you clearly haven't grokked what people have been telling you, I'll repeat it again: no one gives a crap what you think. Kate Harding is but ONE such blog. She has done the research and has been active in this area for years. You get your knowledge second hand from someone who doesn't work in the field. Your opinion is completely irrelevant. </p> <p>And, since you're such a despicable misogynist that you conflated a woman with years of research and study to a woowoo charaltan, I invite you to stuff it. </p> <p>Harding's premise is Healthy At Any Size. That you're a clueless bigot with a skull thicker than a bank vault is not her problem, nor does it even vaguely refuted her premise. </p> <p>P.S. No one gives a fuck about your appraisal of her appearance, you privileged sexist douchevat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313630&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DcyfP2xgE49z4eZVx_i8loFresuvrmedJ465Xm0IVAo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313630">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313631" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276845855"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pretty tidy to dismiss someone as "a blogger", as though that diminishes one's credibility. It's not even possible in Harding's case, though, as she is currently writing her third book. Well, one could try, but one would look painfully ignorant.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313631&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1uKfbVaYMtuHjpjZ1bQlAJKE0O2ekb0nreqR7Q5KamU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313631">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313632" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276850441"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@SKM<br /> Suzanne Somers has written many books and she still has no clue what she is talking about. Writing books doesn't make you an expert on anything. It just means you can write books that people buy, which is why they get published. If I could convince a publishing company that writing a book about how much fun it is to be a cokehead, they would publish it. Kate Harding has no medical publications on the topic and she is primarily addressing the social issues of fat acceptance. "Healthy at any size" may hold true for a few exceptional people that are healthy and also heavy, but most people who lead a healthy lifestyle will be relatively thin (not magazine skinny, actually healthy looking). My discrediting her as a resource was mostly the response I got from posting a link from USA today (a supposedly less creditable resource than a relatively unknown blogger)</p> <p>"Since you clearly haven't grokked what people have been telling you, I'll repeat it again: no one gives a crap what you think"<br /> I do grok. I have been asked many questions and I am mostly answering them.</p> <p>I also find it amusing that you use a word like grok from Stranger in a Strange Land, a book that is often perceived as sexist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313632&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vZpYMaiRoBLsxjxKti6icYeISwbp1V-t-UdDEmSzdns"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313632">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313633" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276880700"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thegoodman (and this may be a trigger for those with eating disorders):</p> <p>If you judge people's willpower, moral strength, and health by their outward appearance (as you've said you do), I bet I would pass your test with flying colors. In fact, I think I may have your "willpower" beat! </p> <p>I'm an anorexic. I starve myself to gain some sense of control. My daily caloric intake is about 1,200-1,500 calories worth of healthy food, and last week I went for three days without consuming anything other than water and unsugared cranberry juice (600 calories/day). My "willpower" and "moral strength" are so strong that I ignored my own body's pleas for survival for -seventy-two hours.- I'm not and have never been a religious person, but it was nearly a religious experience. I felt a sense of my body as a tool, as something divine and pure, although that was probably just the hunger hallucinations talking.</p> <p>I'm not crazy or "mentally ill." I have medical documentation to that effect. Anyone speaking to me would have no idea that I starve myself; I'm thin, but not bone-thin, and am very articulate. Former employers have had no reason to doubt my credibility or aptitude at my job, as I'm a skilled and adept worker ... right up until I collapse and either have to be hospitalized or am sent home. Even that doesn't impede my work, except for the time I am either unconscious or hospitalized. </p> <p>Does this mean I am healthy? No. In fact, I bet a lot of people you think are hideously unhealthy are in fact in better condition than I am. My hair is falling out by the handfuls. I have ulcers and digestive and metabolic disturbances, as well as very low blood pressure and hypoglycemia. My hands shake pretty regularly. Other than the pressure from jackasses like you, I'd sometimes rather be fat than have an eating disorder.</p> <p>Also, before discovering the joys of self starvation, I was an orthorexic (compulsively ate only healthy food, such as fruits -- only one piece at a time -- grains (brown rice and quinoa), vegetables, and legumes I prepared myself using absolutely no sugar, salt, or artificial ingredient of any kind. So it's not that I went from "compulsive overeating" to "eating nothing." No, I went from "eating almost nothing" to "eating nothing."</p> <p>This is not willpower. This is self-harm borne of living a lifetime in a culture full of people exactly like you, who judge other people on their appearances and always get it completely fucking wrong.</p> <p>[end trigger.]</p> <p>What I really want to say to you is, go fuck yourself, and stop calling yourself a feminist too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313633&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Kvtk64fHYGq1O0CbSaC0pYSU-3Ulj1jUhhM2iqcYp24"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joy (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313633">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313634" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276882601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Also, for any fence-sitters regarding Isabel:</p> <p>For all of her talk about class being the one major oppression, etc, she has a remarkably hard time listening to people who have actually been oppressed by class.</p> <p>I'm a "lifer" -- was born into poverty, have always lived in poverty, will probably die in poverty. It's been creative poverty, as in, I've educated myself pretty well and know how to "dress rich" (you'd be surprised what nice things people throw away or donate to thrift stores -- I have a wardrobe full of silk blouses, tailored vests and jackets, professional-looking trousers and skirts, and sturdy shoes that I've found in the trash or bought for less than $10-$20 per item, and altered at home to fit me) so as to avoid the most egregious class profiling in public, but it's still been poverty.</p> <p>And yet somehow, according to Isabel, I "still don't get it." My own oppression. My own life experience.<br /> Let me tell you, I do. Being poor sucks, y'all. In the discussion of whether or not you should make your husbands do chores or hire someone else to do them for you both, I'm the woman who gets paid to pick up your dirty socks and clean up your babies' puke while you guys are fighting about it. It blows, because frankly I'm pretty bright (if standardized test scores were available online, I'd prove it to you; I have nothing to hide), but I still have to sit back and watch other people do the things I'd like to do because it's simply not a possibility for me.</p> <p>Meanwhile, I get raped. Lots of other women do. And then my rapes, like other poorer womens' rapes, get ignored doubly because not only is rape an invisible crime, I/we don't look like "the kind of woman who gets raped." In other words, we are invisible people who are subjected to what is an already invisible crime. And that sucks, in my opinion, even worse than having to clean up baby shit and jockstraps off some rich white woman's floor.</p> <p>Meanwhile, in discussions of such matters, Isabel does the very thing she accuses other feminists of doing -- engages in class bias. Has said I'm either stupid and crazy because I'm poor, or has accused me of being rich. Clearly I don't know class bias, because I have expressed the fact that, having experienced both biases, I'd almost prefer class bias to gender bias. Thus, I must never have experienced class bias! Because it's obviously much worse, for everyone, and is the one true bias. We feminists are all just Rich.</p> <p>Right. Point is, she's right -- you should probably all ignore her, and hope she just goes away.</p> <p>(Thanks for letting me get that off my chest, too. And no, I'm not addressing her directly, because I'm not trying to prove anything to her and I'm not trying to start a comment war. It's just really tiring to see discussions constantly derailed by "thegoodman" and "class is the only oppression!" Can women not talk about anything without having to justify it to someone else? Apparently we can't.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313634&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sN77K0BPkqlXUpD2l6QwPtuyPcPCMwKBF6Mu3sWXkhM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joy (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313634">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313635" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276893116"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"class is the only oppression!" </p> <p>Please show me one, and I will be satisfied with one, example of this.</p> <p>What is more interesting is that people say this about me. </p> <p>Nice job calling out the only person consistently defending lower class people around here.</p> <p>The rest of your post was undecipherable as far as any connection to anything I said.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313635&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8koxPpxyH6wlieAUp3mLlOZx6eWFmieRJQTamXTZ7HQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313635">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313636" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276893316"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ps. Why don't you aim your resentment at Kea? She claims that class differences don't even exist - or at any rate they have nothing to do with money! See it's all in your imagination!</p> <p>Who was the only person to object to that comment?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313636&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SQZvfj1eXiHqPT7B6Hemv1fBywJPrW7cKp4oYDX92Es"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313636">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313637" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276903691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So...I just want to hug everyone who went out on a limb and shared stuff with the internets that they really, really didn't have to. It sucks to be sick/otherwise atypical, and I'm sorry some of you are sharing and not getting any understanding or sympathy in return, because you sure as hell are not obligated to let us this close. *hugz*</p> <p>Also, fat-hatred and misogyny can kiss my big brown lady-ass.</p> <p>I am thoroughly enjoying this game of whack-a-troll. Continue. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313637&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yUoIofn41YkAg4VeCNMxVgm2Xw3iTEdKpaHoOxopgYw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.im-geiste.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Samia (not verified)</a> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313637">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313638" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276904490"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi Samia,</p> <p>I remember you said you wanted to write more about class. How's that going?</p> <p>;)</p> <p>Whack whack!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313638&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kLvSRYaROomhaVuUX4H01_DsqvAq8BtR_nZ4jrlOgYg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 18 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313638">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313639" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276928361"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Samia, I concur, and thanks. I want to write more about how the perception of chronic illness as a moral issue affects employment, but I'm going to do it elsewhere, where I can delete interruptions by people who just show up to "play devil's advocate" or whatever. The devil has enough advocates, and the rest of us need to talk.</p> <p>(Zuska, that's not a swipe at your commenting policy, by the way. It's just that there are some things I don't want to write about unless I have my finger on the ban button!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313639&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QM2E-DtIUv2zf9CXsUjZGplf8sqtPY5zye8_ewpI8hg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 19 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313639">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313640" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276944123"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I want to write more about how the perception of chronic illness as a moral issue affects employment, but I'm going to do it elsewhere, where I can delete interruptions by people who just show up to "play devil's advocate" or whatever. The devil has enough advocates, and the rest of us need to talk.</i></p> <p>Pity that Isatroll doesn't follow your very sensible example, SKM.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313640&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hiGcAf5drzOYAOMB6jN-Jzvq4jIFHwTLNwDJcsqVUCI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 19 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313640">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313641" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1276952303"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>When Kea said that class has nothing to do with money, I am pretty sure that they mean that a persons relationship with the means of production is much more meaningful as a class determinant than the amount of money that they own. I could be wrong but that is my hunch.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313641&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iKZkokTCwtpfXa13EIeyIMULafEkKx40cfIjM8ErGCs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 19 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313641">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313642" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277111494"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Joy<br /> You seem disturbed on many levels and your experiential view of the world seems to be your only view. I have read many of your posts and never responded to any of them because they always start and end with "yeah, but look at me!". We are not really talking about individuals here and 1 example of an unhealthy yet thin person isn't even part of the discussion. Of course some terribly unhealthy people look healthy. Never once did I say that appearance is the only gauge of health. What I said is that in an interview, the interviewer can probably use only weight as a gauge of healthy. If the person is missing teeth and the rest of them are brown and rotting out,they are equally unlikely to get a job as a person who weighs 500lbs. The fact is that no one who weighs 500lbs takes care of their bodies just like no person w/o teeth takes care of their body. I hope that you get better.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313642&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZQBNZRJYAP5bbniibAlf6hWd_prFNqn2dH8_k0B6aMo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313642">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313643" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277112954"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, to sum up: the goodman is a liar, a misogynist, a compulsive mansplainer, a long winded babbler on topics he knows nothing about, but who certainly doesn't listen to those stupid chicks who actually WORK IN THIS FIELD and, lastly, is a condescending ass. What a treasure! </p> <p>My guess is convenience doctor wife works a LOT of long days - far, far, FAR away from home.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313643&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DPhnBDzLKZids2fLlDNmkXnHhU-NdJAruR8tiZNSRlQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313643">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313644" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277114995"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>your experiential view of the world seems to be your only view</i></p> <p>Bingo!!</p> <p>Oh, wait, I'd already filled that card. But what the hell, I'll start a new one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313644&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k5f6NpvX3_LOZOlt6XBUAi_nW6-FSEVtoiffUn_GEbQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313644">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313645" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277116607"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@126 <i>We are all impressed with your understanding of peptide hormones </i> </p> <p>@154 <i>We are not really talking about individuals here</i></p> <p>Thegoodman, why do you keep saying "we"? You don't represent a very broad faction of participants in this conversation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313645&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5G9ap0Qf_IRTkcJiqT3-7m5vBtH3a2tKVc44sVePWaw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Yvonne (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313645">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313646" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277122058"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ha, touché. Good point Yvonne.</p> <p>I'll try to refrain from using "we" in the future.</p> <p>@Endor<br /> Which field are you referring to? Which field do you work in that you know far more than I about?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313646&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i5-78_EJpYfAyCWD7wQ0mgTUOxIpYowmpyCzXhXzHVo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313646">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313647" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277122525"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>just like no person w/o teeth takes care of their body. </i></p> <p>This is an exceptionally bad example, due to the high cost of dental care and the rarity of dental insurance. </p> <p>It is useful, however, to see the Calvinist thinking on display: "don't hire a person with bad teeth, because it proves they don't care about themselves and thus won't care about the work" leads to people not being able to afford dental care because they cannot secure employment. A vicious cycle.</p> <p>Economic limitations are not a character flaw.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313647&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0IPjXD7AWW9k9xRWGDS5GgIbUVcYjZ1HQ5p0sPeCVU8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313647">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313648" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277122992"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No, SKM, but not being born an able-bodied, straight, white cisgendered male IS a character flaw. Therefore, all should be judged according to his manly manness's subjective, uninformed, knee-jerk, personally satisfactory opinion. And don't go thinking people who actually work in the field know better than he does. Nosiree! </p> <p>his main premise seems to be "I got mine, fuck you!". So, he's a libertarian, apparently. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313648&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uEhJ6bjj6rmL5Cw5wb5rcFdz4GnRcOXD-8oJ8QRrje8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313648">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313649" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277124101"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't agree with the teeth thing.</p> <p>For one thing, if you grow up poor or neglected you can put your teeth through some really bad abuse before hitting 18, almost insuring that they will have bad teeth in the future. It doesn't mean they didn't care about their teeth, it means that they didn't have the tools needed to do so. </p> <p>Also, there are medications that severely discolor teeth and make em look really weird. Bleaching won't fix it. My aunt had to take medicine as a kid that made her teeth look this weird grey color for the rest of her life. I know that isn't like having teeth missing, but people still assume things. </p> <p>Then there are people who have severe dental problems because they did not receive proper dental care while they were in say, an intensive care unit, or otherwise incapacitated by a life event.</p> <p>People get shit loads of teeth knocked out in things like traffic accidents. I have seen my fair share of dental horror in the trauma bay, it isn't pretty. Getting hit by a car has nothing to do with how much you care about your body. </p> <p>etc etc. We don't know where anyone else has been, and assuming just isn't fair. Thegoodman is twenty fucking seven and needs something this simple explained to him. Am I the only one who has made some kind of terrible offensive mistake by assuming something about another person? I bet he has too, but the difference is that I STOPPED doing that sort of thing instead of thinking my behavior is totally acceptable.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313649&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oh2TicG5AvCn9pxTDLfSR01tvcnKFaH0VyFL1bQZt4Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313649">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313650" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277126437"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"bet he has too, but the difference is that I STOPPED doing that sort of thing instead of thinking my behavior is totally acceptable."</p> <p>Yes, but you lack his astronomical levels of unexamined privilege. He's got his head so far up his ass he can lick the back of his tonsils. Just more proof he's no feminist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313650&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OwHXs4htr_bTjb-h-8FpWZ65u5H8Dc5zKCtVvfz5bcU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313650">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277128879"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am not talking about someone who applies for a job as a gas station attendant. The entire discussion was about professional jobs and professional appearance. Being 500lbs with a bunch of brown/broken/missing teeth is not professional. Weather or not it is fair is irrelevant, it isn't professional.</p> <p>For the 1 billionth time. Of course there are exceptions to any situation. There are a lot of reasons why people are fat or why people are missing teeth. Most of them are directly related to an unhealthy lifestyle, others are not. Its not an employers job to give an interviewer the benefit of the doubt in every possible situation.</p> <p>"Economic limitations are not a character flaw."<br /> I agree. However, using your economic limitations as an excuse to not look professional is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313651&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LGUFHon3-Oug8qRgaXMx7o0VYP2Xpay6RTHDnMPVXQw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thegoodman (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313651">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313652" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277129390"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>However, using your economic limitations as an excuse to not look professional is.</i></p> <p>That makes no sense. If they are unable to pay for dental care, how is it an "excuse"? <i>How are they to pay for the care?</i></p> <p>The class-based assumptions associated with "professionals" and "gas station attendants" have likewise shorted out my brain. I think there is nothing else I can say here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313652&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="22Oc26ZionEOl1jpiWDjP7KfVTfQisb1JqMJz7YK83g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313652">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313653" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277132877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The repetitive use of the word "excuse" is very very revealing. Such a strong flavor ("Calvinist" is very apt) of guilt and sin, both of which are interpreted as being inscribed upon the very body of the individual in question. They are either absent (i.e. someone of "normal" weight with teeth that meet particular standards) or they are inescapable markers of worthlessness. And if the latter, then the possessor of such signs of unfitness will try desperately to explain or excuse them away, not realizing (as TheGoodMan and his ilk are privileged to realize) that it actually takes the hard work of atonement to cleanse oneself of these signifiers of guilt. Hence any request that such "sin" laden people be accepted as-is is the dangerous ground of moral relativism, a request that threatens to destabilize an entire system of signifiers of moral worth through which certain fortunate individuals are elevated to enjoy a privileged status of being demonstrably, visibly, <i>physically AND morally</i> superior to others.</p> <p>Historiann has had some good posts on the way cleanliness is regarded in our culture -- cleanliness is akin to godliness, etc. etc. Another piece that comes to mind is "Fast Cars, Clean Bodies" by Kristin Ross (<a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=5527&amp;ttype=2">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?tid=5527&amp;ttype=2</a> for anyone who is interested).</p> <p>Like SKM, I feel like there's little to be said to address the ideas that our erstwhile NiceGuy(TM) is raising here; I'd rather talk about more interesting questions with people who are actually familiar with Privilege 101. Anyone read Kristin Ross? Any other reading recommendations on how our culture overdetermines clean, thin, white, etc. as physical signs of goodness or worthiness? I'd love to do more reading on this topic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313653&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wuLKhGe2U66TxaQRRHGZzl_BsNvuMI6o1WyDbwc7bsA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313653">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313654" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277139459"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>an entire system of signifiers of moral worth through which certain fortunate individuals are elevated to enjoy a privileged status of being demonstrably, visibly, physically AND morally superior to others.</i></p> <p>Comrade Svilova, I am reminded of the movie <i>Rope</i>, where Rupert Cadell is faced with the real-world consequences of his Man-and-Superman bullshitting. Even then, he says something like "you've taken my words and you've twisted them and given them a meaning I never dreamed of!", when in fact David's murder was just a logical consequence of Cadell's worldview.</p> <p>Thanks for the Kristin Ross tip-off--I haven't yet read her.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313654&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yI7cWgS5RmWAebTWp30nBwEfj6u08jRGoBdXZhDCPqg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313654">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313655" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277141197"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmm, I have to watch the entire film, thanks for the reminder. (Worst thing about film school is seeing innumerable clips of Great Films and having no time to actually see the films in their entirety.)</p> <p>It's understandable that a lot of people resist really looking at the implications of their beliefs/positions. In and of itself, a certain position may make sense (some of my father's libertarian positions come to mind here). However, when taken to its logical conclusion, or when its smelly underbelly is revealed, something that seemed innocuous (or at least limited in its horror) turns out to have truly monstrous proportions. That's when the person concerned denies the logical link from their original position to the attendant consequences that position implies.</p> <p>It's understandable, but it's something I hope I avoid myself. I'd like to think that I own my mistaken positions, admit to them, and rectify the situation. Given that I once was anti-abortion, pro-war, and pro-Bush, I've spent a lot of time recognizing how damaging my own beliefs were and how terrible the implications of my positions could be. (Thankfully I held all those views before I could vote!)</p> <p>[/anecdata] Thanks again for the film recommendation, and for all your insightful comments here, SKM. I always enjoy seeing you on blogs!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313655&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xoSwLHKlbmyaqOCAXmXcUPczMB1QbgQ1SA4nMZXD1zM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313655">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313656" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277144747"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, so now it is professionalism? The idea of a professional appearance is 100% socially constructed- it is a set of appearance based ideals that vary greatly in each society. There is nothing inherently professional about good teeth or a business suit compared to a speedo. Remember powdered fucking wigs? </p> <p>It is bullshit. It is a ridiculous charade where everyone tries to appear like they have a certain amount of money by buying shit and wearing it. They either can afford it or are expected to pretend, to please people who do have enough money to afford crap like that. None of it has any functionality except to signify the wearer's allegiance to jumping through ridiculous hoops in order to satisfy the arbitrary demands of their superiors. It has absolutely no relationship to how well a person can do their job, unless their job is to be blindly obedient and not question anything in their entire lives. </p> <p>What a ridiculous thing to value in others, to make into a moral imperative. None of this shit really matters, and the reason it does is because people like thegoodman (who have the right race/sex to make hiring decisions) care. Valuing this means valuing conformity to such an extent that you don't give a shit about the content of people. Gross.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313656&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="okL0Z4ErO2wy3miQM1TekiPJhPXQexhLUkRIh5g7JHM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313656">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277146230"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Weather or not it is fair</i></p> <p>Why is he blathering about meteorology?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313657&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nYnGvcamFp12ld4XtJK5JLBa2gDTPs0GNU20nU7jNS4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 21 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313657">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313658" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277202150"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Oh, so now it is professionalism? "</p> <p>Well, if he doesn't keep moving the goal posts, how can he keep up his delusions that he's right and we just hate his teeny weeny?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313658&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t6kvtPgM-6-QZcg1BdJFCakuLX6QF_xlnXyW4twBcIE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313658">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277214406"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>your experiential view of the world seems to be your only view.</i></p> <p>Yeah, <i><b>Joy</b></i>. Why don't you have everyone else's view of the world in your head? What's wrong with you?</p> <p>*snort*</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313659&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DXV59K4EH3GsFxMt3qNHftsHOD_g1Btq8sGZm4P5G0k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313659">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313660" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277220321"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"When Kea said that class has nothing to do with money, I am pretty sure that they mean that a persons relationship with the means of production is much more meaningful as a class determinant than the amount of money that they own."</p> <p>Yeah, SURE she did. uh huh. You just know this don'tcha. And sure that makes total sense, especially in 2010! btw, Nails, you've continues to evade the question of your own background. </p> <p>"Am I the only one who has made some kind of terrible offensive mistake by assuming something about another person? I bet he has too, but the difference is that I STOPPED doing that sort of thing instead of thinking my behavior is totally acceptable. "</p> <p>No you never do anything like that! Hahaha. you are so perfect, and at 23 yet!!!!</p> <p>Nails, your problem is you never know when to just shut your freakin' piehole.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313660&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LOcVzjlE3ahqbB6TiJk75zhI0HFSC8OzVzT-Oba8Gxs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313660">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277222687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>your problem is you never know when to just shut your freakin' piehole</i></p> <p>...</p> <p>Nah.</p> <p>*tootles off to scrub toilet*</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8WPUZwCp2ZH-M7dgkh4baAk7XcrJto49f8h3or6xs3U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313662" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277228087"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't owe you personal details about me. The few you have you try to hurt me with. I have done nothing to you except for disagree with you online. In this case I gave a guess as to what Kea meant, and admitted that I could be wrong. I am not sure how you could interpret this to mean that I am asserting that I know everything, when I explicitly said I did not. The second portion you quoted was me talking about how I make mistakes and try to better myself, at which point you accused me of saying I was perfect, despite the implication of screwing up being present in the quoted text. You are completely ignoring the parts of my words that disagree with the extreme judgment you have made of my character. You are saying you know what I think about myself when I have not told you so. Do you think that you are being realistic about any of this?</p> <p>You need help. This isn't said to hurt or dismiss or judge you as a person, it is said out of the concern I feel for every person I encounter. You think that I deserve for you to try and hurt my feelings, and that you should know personal information about me when it isn't your business at all. I am asserting my right to healthy boundaries with a stranger on the internet, not avoiding some all important issue (my personal background). You think I should talk about what you have decided I should, and so should everyone else. This is extremely distorted thinking that does not reflect reality or lead to any real communication or understanding. It is a painful and dysfunctional way to think that will only make you more miserable as time goes on if you refuse to see the problem with your thoughts and behavior. You aren't upsetting me by following me around and doing this, I just feel sad that you experience the world this way. You are just making yourself more agitated by continuing your obsessive behavior. If you can't stop this behavior because it is ineffective can you at least do it for your own sake? You deserve to live a life that is satisfying, and I cannot imagine how that could be possible when you are so demanding of others and then feel like cruelty is a justified response to the lack of obedience. You must experience a lot of anger and frustration to behave in such a way. It cannot be pleasant and there really is a better way to live and communicate with other people. Give it a shot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313662&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f1KjP5zQ4U5l6HdXNnq-wdnc40EAHGjZwghEdGAlni0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313662">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313663" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277235352"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"The few you have you try to hurt me with"</p> <p>How have I tried to hurt you????????? That's rich.</p> <p>Have I tried to get you kicked off any blogs for example? Have I judged you, and announced to others that you are a racist? or a child abuser, or some other hated thing? Have a I tried to slander you, and then not admitted when I was wrong?</p> <p>What gives you the idea that you can do this and not suffer any consequences?</p> <p>"it is said out of the concern I feel for every person I encounter."</p> <p>Hahahahahahaha. You are SO concerned about me! It is better for me that you investigate me using google and report your findings to the "progressive" community. This is a totally sane thing to do. *I* need help. Sure, Nails, sure.</p> <p>"You think that I deserve for you to try and hurt my feelings"</p> <p>Why would I try to hurt your feelings? When did this become about your feelings? I don't give a flying fuck about your feelings after the dishonest, cowardly actions you have taken. Sounds like the guilt talking.</p> <p>"I am asserting my right to healthy boundaries with a stranger on the internet, not avoiding some all important issue (my personal background)"</p> <p>I see. Our socioeconomic backgrounds are important issues (? interesting admission there) that we should *keep secret*. Keeping them secret is respecting our backgrounds. </p> <p>It's okay. I think I can guess the answer. </p> <p>So, in a racism discussion it is okay to keep one's race secret, even if you are calling people out etc. In attempting to take control of a sexism discussion, no need to reveal that one is male. It has no relevancy at all. It's all about healthy boundaries!</p> <p>If someone calls me out as a "racist" for pointing out the existence of a group that suffered 400 years of oppression and whose very existence is being ignored in a thread because they are "white" (i.e. "Canadians are always welcomed into the US because they are white") and other class-related comments I have made, it is pushing boundaries for me to want to know the socioeconomic class of my accuser. Why is that? Why is it a secret? This is exactly what Jim Goad says - class is America's dirty little secret.</p> <p>"or lead to any real communication or understanding"</p> <p>Yes, spying and banning is what leads to healthy, productive communication. Of course!</p> <p>"I just feel sad..."</p> <p>Waaaaaaa. Spare me your pity.</p> <p>"You deserve to live a life that is satisfying"</p> <p>LOL. Thanks, dearie, I do. And I have one. And it is obvious you spend about 1000x more time than me on here arguing fruitlessly with people. YOU deserve a better life. I feel so sad for you.</p> <p>"here really is a better way to live and communicate with other people. Give it a shot. "</p> <p>Yes, it's called respecting your elders (i.e. more experienced) for starters. Live and let live is another good one. MYOB. Ya know?</p> <p>You owe me an apology Nails. You were wrong. YOU made an enemy of me. I paid zero attention to you until then, as far as I know. Your ignorant actions had real life consequences. </p> <p>Maybe it's all for the good in the end, I don't really miss the weird Orwellian, anti-sex atmosphere over at Jill's.</p> <p>I am not tortured; I see that everyone who doesn't spew the approved bullshit is treated the same bizarre way around here anyway.</p> <p>Why don't you skedaddle back to Jill's place? I think she just baked a new batch of cookies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313663&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CYe_QHcGktcNhL6Kf4KIZjRIli-U80emhF76sPw7ZzI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313663">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277246206"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Isabel, you have a problem. FYI, I have been through the rich-poor cycle more times than I can count. I have been both filthy rich and genuinely homeless. To go from being homeless to succeeding, all you need is some nice clothes from the thrift store, a good sense for where the free showers and free food is, and a LOT of will power. I have cleaned large houses and small hovels. I have both served, year after year with no hope of escape, and I have been waited upon. I have lived in antipodean classless societies, and in the centre of European snobbery. </p> <p>But even after telling you this, you know almost nothing about me. In getting irritated with me, you are jumping to conclusions about my (rather remarkable) life experiences and my character. I consider that my biggest advantage in life was being born in an affluent, English speaking country. But this is an advantage that many share with me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f1muXs8jNNxzeh64Hap_WiHVtp0_IDRoKI5WGoa4t_4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277246638"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Weather or not it is fair</i></p> <p><b><i>Why is he blathering about meteorology?</i></b></p> <p>Helen, the poor oppressed dear can't spell. Wimmenz, ya know. We took the werd skilz out of his brane.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rD02X1R5GOMq29J7niZb7DiVqSiAVihQHn9-85eo_wQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cara (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277248866"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Isabel, you have a problem."</p> <p>Fuck you. You know nothing about me either. Who are you to judge? But you SAID class has nothing to do with how much money someone has.</p> <p>That is all I was responding to.</p> <p>I know all about succeeding from a point of poverty.I am not whining (I've been lucky). </p> <p>Remember, there are plenty of women and PoC that are successful exceptions. And you STARTED OUT with all the advantages. Who are you to judge me anyway? Who cares how filthy rich you were?</p> <p>You sound like you have a lot of issues. Good luck with them, I feel sorry for you, just like I feel sad for all the people I encounter here.<br /> ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4WsGgy9hNhfCS8nKirHnjWmN6Zxqq5dDJSPl4c7N_1E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isabel (not verified)</span> on 22 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277276221"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Skeptifem, Kea - seriously now, what is the point in continually trying to reason with this person? She's not interested in anything but what's she's been doing, not reasoned debate. Save yourselves the headache and killfile.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8C5mbngaeG45QURuO3t5y2D43j-pn9_LxiuuWwDzaR8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Endor (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277276245"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> I consider that my biggest advantage in life was being born in an affluent, English speaking country</i></p> <p>I agree with your comment, but add this: are you also able-bodied and more or less healthy enough to borrow against future energy stores so you can push through tough physical times? Because when you write,</p> <p> <i>all you need is some nice clothes from the thrift store, a good sense for where the free showers and free food is, and a LOT of will power.</i></p> <p>I think you are forgetting that disabilities are not a matter of will. Or rather, you are not thinking about the intersection of disability and poverty at all, perhaps. But how is one to "clean hovels" if one has, for example, multiple sclerosis and no medical insurance for care?</p> <p>I bring it up because one of the themes in this thread has been that health is a matter of will, and that is not so. Your will can help you manage chronic illness or disability, but you can't prevent disability or banish your limitations through strength of character.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pknhHkHuQfQoA7TC6tBANzU8yRClqM5RGKFZQN2H2CI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277300562"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SKM, thanks for bringing that up; I'd been concerned about that aspect of Kea's point as well. </p> <p>In general, while individuals will succeed despite the odds, that doesn't change the systematic conditions that prohibit most people in a marginalized or under-privileged group from succeeding. Bill Gates didn't finish college, but that hasn't made it easier for my brilliant high-school-diploma-only DH to get the kinds of jobs he deserves. These token success stories can be a way to further marginalize people who are already underprivileged; X managed to "pull hirself up by the bootstraps" why can't you? Etc.</p> <p>(My second paragraph wasn't addressed to Kea specifically; it's a general comment because, as SKM says, individual stories of will power and success can be held up as evidence that everyone could be healthy, wealthy and wise <i> if they just tried hard enough</i>.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bQCupA69kL_a3ipGYItjuut7AsQU0RczvwkcevFeWA4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277301700"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Speaking of bill gates- he is the first person to admit that he was extremely lucky. He got access to a computer when he was 13 or 14... almost no other kids could say that at the time. </p> <p>I don't really give a shit about soaring to the top of a class structure, I don't want to live like that. I just want the bottom to not be so shitty- people who work hard should be able to afford decent living and have some sort of control over the economic decisions that affect their communities. Wages have stagnated for what, 50 years now? Workers have no control over their employment, we are all at the mercy of huge tyrannical corporations. There isn't even a labor party here. I think something like 9% of workers here are unionized- it is a really crappy situation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8T-njLCwxE0H7172FAPdtmqGYSeUrkoUvaxzP7cNQqg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://skeptifem.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">skeptifem (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277306513"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SKM, of course you are right that health is a necessary condition. I simply neglected to mention it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4uzqxdbhO_MYbQuFo5FkfC1ijUgZvYyYep4Jz0rA1EI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277306752"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree with skeptifem. The main reason I spend so much time living in poverty is because I CHOOSE it. I could have stayed with a rich boyfriend, or been more obedient to my dumb ass supervisors. I chose not to. </p> <p>And by the way, Isabel, I did NOT say that I was born 'rich', as you put it. You need to work on your reading comprehension.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NnqCZ8YRzOS4x1xb-UUjxDLSf5TG7uW02JtJzkPQlR8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://pseudomonad.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277309269"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I don't really give a shit about soaring to the top of a class structure, I don't want to live like that. I just want the bottom to not be so shitty</i></p> <p>Hear, hear.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1asKDkKelZ8yDQidMx9N49SOCdDGui83jIlEYGtLd_s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helen Huntingdon (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1277361570"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A third hear hear! You put it so well, Skeptifem.</p> <p>(And actually, my DH was using computers in 1980 at age 9 -- he had early access to computers, learned tons about them, and is truly brilliant. He still didn't manage to be a Bill Gates. The only reason I bring this up is that I think sometimes it's impossible to say why, exactly, someone succeeds and someone else doesn't. There are so many factors that it is impossible to pinpoint why one person's life is different from someone else's. And that's why it's important to not judge others or assume that a person's position in life is their fault or responsibility. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's chance or something specific, sometime it's impossible to tell. We just can never be certain about someone else's position. Heck, can we even be certain we understand ourselves and our own lives? :-) )</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hW10Rx42MRQ17AanpcMzfzhdpMTMBTv5M6yYJ33AXWs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://12fps.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade Svilova (not verified)</a> on 24 Jun 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2313675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1279568337"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SKM, of course you are right that health is a necessary condition. I simply neglected to mention it</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2313675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rVG19RN9zXJJo-z8CPaMVZnGRJmEbNPXBxU86z-Dafc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.barkodsistemi.gen.tr" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Burcu (not verified)</a> on 19 Jul 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2313675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2010/06/09/dress-for-success-or-not%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:19:25 +0000 thusspakezuska 115945 at https://scienceblogs.com Objectification Silences Women - Or, They Were Asking For It, And They Like It, And... https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/01/12/objectification-silences-women <span>Objectification Silences Women - Or, They Were Asking For It, And They Like It, And...</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ed Yong of <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/">Not Exactly Rocket Science</a> has a fascinating post summarizing a recent research paper that shows how <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2010/01/how_sexual_objectification_silences_women_-_the_male_glance.php">objectification silences women</a>. </p> <blockquote><p>As Saguy [the lead researcher] explains, "When a woman believes that a man is focusing on her body, she narrows her presence... by spending less time talking." There are a few possible reasons for this. Saguy suspects that objectification prompts women to align their behaviour with what's expected of them - silent things devoid of other interesting traits. Treat someone like an object, and they'll behave like one. Alternatively, worries about their appearance might simply distract them from the task at hand. </p></blockquote> <p>Or, if you read the incredibly intelligent comments on the post, the REALZ interpretation of the data is...</p> <ul><li>Women were asking for it. </li><li>And they like it. </li><li>And it's their fault, because they have poor self-esteem. </li><li>And men are oppressed, too! </li><li>And evolushunz means menz haz got to stare at teh boobiez.</li> </ul><p>Which pretty much sums up every stupid-ass comment you get these days whenever you try to talk sensibly in any manner about sexual harassment, sexual objectification, sexism, sexual discrimination, bias, etc. Generally you also get comments like "this is all anecdote, there is no real data" but it seems that when even a man writes a blog post laying forth exceptionally strong data making the case that objectification is harmful to women, it's not sufficient. </p> <p>The bleating hordes will still show up and cry "wah wah, no, it is all wrong! My theory, which is mine, about this data, in this paper I have not read, is much better! The next thing I'm going to say is my theory. Ready? My theory by A. Douche. All women exist to be ogled by men, and then to be fucked by men, and then to say how much they loved it. That is my theory, it is mine, and belongs to me and I own it, and what it is too."</p> <p>Go read Ed's post, then instead of the comments, just watch this:</p> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cAYDiPizDIs&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cAYDiPizDIs&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1&amp;" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object></div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Tue, 01/12/2010 - 10:08</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/blog-i-am-reading-today" hreflang="en">Blog I Am Reading Today</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ludicrous-language" hreflang="en">Ludicrous Language</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/naming-experience" hreflang="en">Naming Experience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310642" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263314093"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Selection bias.</p> <p>No, not the study -- the comments. The topic practically screams for self-justification and denial. At least, if it's not a case of headlines: "New Study Reveals Sky is Blue!"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310642&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jPFj9-6qETB0YkdhtsdWSPnFbNQYjrVgAduiZhq1-mM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">D. C. Sessions (not verified)</span> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310642">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310643" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263314915"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's a metric fuckton of mansplaining at Ed's. Your theory *squee hack cough hack* is spot on. A. Douche is at the beginning, the middle, and the end of the comment thread over there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310643&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="utzcrHtIeFPVyYbirgZ_LUb1Kf7uP3FPy-Al6JYqVGo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310643">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310644" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263316124"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Where the fuck did all these sodding fratboys come from, that's what I want to know.</p> <p>I love the word "mansplaining"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310644&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZXu74LV57ktrlXILn_QVwRkRr_psVVx92n9wQYHUCNI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ed Yong (not verified)</a> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310644">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310645" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263325910"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska, you forgot to add that women are sexist! And they are stereotyping men! Furthermore, recognizing gender-based discrimination teaches women to be victims, so we shouldn't mention it!</p> <p>Wow, that comments section is an absolute disaster. It is the Platonic Ideal of Proudly and Loudly Missing The Point.</p> <p>Yong's blog looks good though (except for the comments section).</p> <p>And I love a Python reference!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310645&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5Of5RQcyobNQOGXc6izxORznN5RBvLI5Y7lPMpRfbJY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</a> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310645">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310646" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263329379"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know that when I think a guy is undressing me with his eyes or staring at my boobs, the thing that's always running through my mind is "what can I do to make you go away?" this usually entails giving one word answers to all questions, and yes, getting quiet.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310646&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i-e6WumE8nVWBODCjpr2i0L98Dsb7erCBasgrbikExo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Scrabcake (not verified)</span> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310646">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310647" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263336975"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks for the link, the research is really interesting.</p> <p>And the comments are astounding. I especially laughed at the dude asking since when was treating someone as a "depersonalised object" the same as not recognising someone as having a "personality". How did he wrap his head around that logic fail I wonder?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310647&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2agh_Z0343S0Mum95_uKKVEVa6Kmq24_DU4jDi4sF_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shinynewcoin.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shiny (not verified)</a> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310647">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310648" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263342655"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>for all those comments you would assume mr. yong posted something or other about a communion wafer</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310648&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cspFs89IMAJ84BQhYbcVPT2dpADi-Om8uYxTl1_kR2o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">tsc (not verified)</span> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310648">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310649" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263346899"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Objectification Silences Women</i></p> <p>Is this supposed to be a bad thing?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310649&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nXIhugFtHXcQ_kG7rXaKZZoG6jpi2n213qMDjl7NRG4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyler DiPietro (not verified)</span> on 12 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310649">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310650" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263362185"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tyler: Do us all a favour and try being silenced for a while yourself.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310650&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9OwghYlBFiDoezUYETUS0jvL7Cv4PiKNplDGzeQeF50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Luna_the_cat (not verified)</span> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310650">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263367053"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tyler, please haul your /b/tard ass back to 4chan.</p> <p>This is a place for grown-up talk.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310651&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_lmfIP-wnDQY-1XRkFmAWH1ddMhIQ7XMlZaGtXKlKlQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Katharine (not verified)</span> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310651">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="78" id="comment-2310652" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263369684"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, that's an astonishing number of moronic commenters (not here, of course). </p> <p>I actually have done an objective study on this, since I hit my full six feet at age 12, and I have actually had a statistically meaningful, large enough sample size of boys and men who are at eye level with my boobs to know that this is true. My formal findings will be published as an enormous comprehensive study entitled "I'm up here, stupid," and I'm certain it will change the landscape of science. </p> <p>Sharon</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310652&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="21vpMcYMT2PLNGLtWdLb_wx-211BxkiDdRU_s_DbMMU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/sastyk" lang="" about="/author/sastyk" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sastyk</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310652">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/sastyk"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/sastyk" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310653" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263372633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think that part of the problem over there, and here, is that Ed and Zuska both did a less-than-stellar job of summarizing what the study did and did not show.</p> <p>If I understand the study correctly---do correct me if I'm wrong---the mansplainers over there are correct, up to a point, that the study was about women's psychology, not men's.</p> <p>It did not show that men are actually oppressing women with their glances---you need other studies to show that. (I mentioned some over there.) And they are correct, up to a point, that what it demonstrates is sex bias women have against men <i>as opposed to women</i> viewing their bodies while they talk about themselves. Women became more reticent with men than women, without any observable difference in viewing behavior by the men; they do sex profiling and regard identical behaviors as more suspicious when men do them.</p> <p>(Under the very artificial circumstances of the study, that is; in real life, they may process other cues correctly, and fall back on bias much less often. Biases often come to the fore when little other information is available.)</p> <p>Pointing those things out is utterly reasonable---for any study, you should be careful to distinguish what it does and doesn't show.</p> <p>I, for one, am not saying that women are wrong to be biased against men in this way; I sadly acknowledge that if I was a woman, I'd be more suspicious of men than women in exactly the same way. Men are more likely to be horndogs, and are more likely to be violent, and are more typically more physically capable of harming them.</p> <p>(Even as a man, I've internalized the latter two---I am more wary of men than women, especially angry ones. I engage in sex profiling, too.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310653&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yKJHToBOPQlfjm4k4R_bdgexI3hma0ITv0z6ub8hJG4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Paul W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310653">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310654" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263376127"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think more interesting is how many of the women in the comments (or presumed women based on their monikers) are basically APOLOGIZING for their opinion or their own anecdotes. You see them tiptoeing around with justifications like "i'm not saying all men are bad" or something like it. You don't see the men apologizing (or not as much). Only women who are disagreeing with the study seem to feel safe enough not to be apologists for having an opinion or a story to share. Sad.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310654&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s2g1zYLlgqfaPeDK1TVFwFMXOzYmchcc8u7CCQX7XuI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://frautech.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">FrauTech (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310654">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310655" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263387839"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>the study was about women's psychology, not men's.</i></p> <p>Yes. Men's psychology is irrelevant in this experiment. This is about social systems; the intent of individual men does not matter. In a system where women are undervalued compared to men, and valued primarily for the availability of their bodies to men, only a small minority of men need consciously to intimidate with their glances in order to perpetuate the system. The rest can just follow along with no intention whatsoever--indeed, they simply needn't think at all about what effect their boob-glances have on anyone. </p> <p>And as for men who look women in the eye and talk to them without looking down at their boobs, well,<i> this isn't about them.</i></p> <p>Any men who feel insulted that they might accidentally get lumped in with overtly lecherous boob-starers should 1) not stare at boobs; and 2) take it up with their fellow men; they are the ones creating and perpetuating the problem.</p> <p><i>It did not show that men are actually oppressing women with their glances-</i></p> <p>Saying that women are oppressed as a class is totally different from saying that individual men oppress women with their glances. There is a very basic misunderstanding of sociology here. </p> <p>I see this a lot--the claim that one needs to be able to prove that each individual man <i>intends </i>to be sexist, biased, oppressive (again, that's a misuse of the word) before we can conclude that women are oppressed by the male-dominated system. Totally false. The same goes for racism and other *isms.</p> <p>The study showed that women "spent far less time talking about themselves <b>if they believed that their bodies were being checked out</b>". That is, they were responding to the men's downward glances--to their<i> behavior</i>. That's not acting on bias; it's women responding to <i>actual behavior</i> within the context of their experience. </p> <p>The fact that women did not respond the same way to the downward glances of other women does NOT mean that "women are sexist"; it means we have learned from experience when we may be in danger and respond accordingly.</p> <p>There is a lack of understanding in Yong's comment thread about the very definition of bias, of sexism, of oppression. Yet this lack of knowledge is slung about with pride; most commenters--male and female--feel qualified to hold forth on the topic when they don't even know the basic vocabulary.</p> <p>That is usually how it goes with feminist issues.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310655&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5Sp14XCNB9wMDiqMCDuqn-LukZGTxBB0Ujmo-T9UtxU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310655">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310656" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263388601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Women became more reticent with men than women, without any observable difference in viewing behavior by the men</i></p> <p>I missed this part. Sorry.</p> <p>I hope it is clear, however, how the intent of individual men to "oppress" is not relevant to whether women as a class are oppressed (I'm not lecturing you, Paul, btw--I just want to be sure my point was clear).</p> <p>Society promotes sexual objectification of women in many ways; pointing that out is not saying that individual men<i> intend </i>to oppress or to objectify. <b>And neither Yong nor Zuska did that. </b>I think commenters are reacting to claims that were never made.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310656&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xGQ6S-XdJ5N3IrCsE0f6sGb2xtv_izmpQvtPszl2QkI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310656">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263393006"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can see it is time to return to The Gender Knot...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310657&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jgINaPfG5dQ5ACjSjUi2aEPlDIpde0dhwv-VnA9uik4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310657">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310658" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263394131"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sigh... I was so horrified by the first half dozen comments that I stopped reading them. Unfortunately some mansplainers had to come over here. Bring on The Gender Knot (and well done, those of you intelligently taking on the d00ds, I just don't have the energy today but I applaud you and your brains).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310658&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bwSHmQ061zl7C0uRENx921cH-Mim5O2kwOglYDDq61c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://k8grrl.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kate (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310658">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263395151"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Having worked my way about 2/3 through The Gender Knot on my own, I have to say that this one:<br /> "And men are oppressed, too!"<br /><i>really</i> irks me. Every time I hear it I want to hit them with a board that says "You priveleged SOB, you don't even know what the definition of oppression is"</p> <p>(FWIW I would still be very interested in reading more analysis of TGK if you have time!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310659&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mOiTfw9t4IuL9qncT9syabxkAQie183MTQz_sNQkONI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Size (not verified)</span> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310659">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310660" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263396455"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I can see it is time to return to The Gender Knot...</i></p> <p>I'll be there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310660&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RmNodgJf8Sk0ja9JhbrZUDGlrxqlT1kBVGgVZEU9lL8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310660">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2310661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1263399563"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Annnnnd now we have a guy on Yong's thread comparing women's wariness of men in the street to racial profiling by racists.</p> <p>The layers of fail are too many for me to take on now-- it's time to cook dinner for everyone over here!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2310661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xcsi_E6EYsg3CTMn5YMhU_tKBsYj6qW88dmo0w9vaHk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SKM (not verified)</a> on 13 Jan 2010 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2310661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2010/01/12/objectification-silences-women%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:08:25 +0000 thusspakezuska 115883 at https://scienceblogs.com Links for 4-3-2009 https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/04/03/links-for-4-3-2009 <span>Links for 4-3-2009</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Scads of stuff I don't have time to blog adequately...</p> <ul><li><strong>Johns Hopkins Provost Kristina Johnson was nominated by President Obama to be under secretary of the Department of Energy in mid-March.</strong> From the email press release: <blockquote><p>She is a distinguished researcher, best known for pioneering work -- with widespread scientific and commercial application -- in the field of "smart pixel arrays." Last year, she was awarded the John Fritz Medal, widely considered the highest award in engineering and previously given to Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, George Westinghouse and Orville Wright. She is an entrepreneur and has served with distinction as dean of engineering at Duke and, since 2007, as provost at Johns Hopkins.</p></blockquote> <p>I should have blogged that for the last <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/03/diversity_in_science_carnival.php">Diversity in Science carnival</a>! </p> </li><li><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/isisthescientist/2009/03/the_illegals_steal_our_jorbz.php">Isis smacks down the whiny jerkwads</a> always complaining about "illegals" stealing "our jobs". You know, the ones the whiny jerkwads don't want to do. </li><li><a href="http://beangirls.blogspot.com/">Bean-mom</a> left this <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/03/author_of_motherhood_the_eleph.php#comment-1516157">very meaty comment</a> three days ago on the motherhood/science careers issue,and it got lost in moderation. Check it out. Also check out her blog!</li> </ul><p>More stuff after the jump.</p> <!--more--><ul><li><a href="http://ehrweb01.aaas.org/intresdiv/">3rd Annual Conference on Understanding Interventions that Broaden Participation in Research Careers</a> - May 7-9, 2009 - Bethesda North Marriott, Maryland (Washington DC metro area) <blockquote><p>This conference was established to facilitate dissemination and exchange of hypothesis-based research on interventions and initiatives that broaden participation in science and engineering research careers. The conference is designed to create a dialogue among behavioral/social science and education researchers, evaluators, and faculty in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) fields who participate in intervention programs. Graduate students in these fields are strongly encouraged to attend. Workshops, sessions, and posters will communicate effective strategies from successful STEM intervention programs, present results from empirical research studies, and synthesize the translation of research findings into practice on STEM learning, undergraduate research, graduate education, and student retention.</p></blockquote> </li><li><strong>What do you wish you knew about tenure?</strong> Leslie M. Phinney provides some insight in a <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2009/03/27/phinney">column at Inside Higher Ed</a>.<br /><blockquote><p>Tenure is an individual accomplishment that can be all consuming and absorbing twenty-four-seven for the first decade or two of an academic career. Tenure is also like gambling in a casino or joining a fraternity, and a tenure case is like a hunk of Swiss cheese, as I'll explain below. Here are nine facets of tenure and the tenure process, including potential pitfalls and suggestions for success that I wish I'd known when I started as a mechanical engineering assistant professor.</p></blockquote> </li><li>Registration is now open for the <strong><a href="http://www.engr.washington.edu/lead/">2009 LEAD</a>: Leadership Excellence for Academic Diversity Workshop for Science and Engineering Department Chairs</strong>. The workshop is June 22-23, 2009 in Fayetteville, AR. To help support faculty or department chairs with limited resources, there is a <a href="https://catalysttools.washington.edu/webq/survey/coleenc/70804">travel fund application</a>. LEAD is a series of national leadership workshops, offered annually, for department chairs, deans and emerging leaders in science, engineering and mathematics (SEM), which address departmental and university culture and the professional development of faculty. </li><li>And this link I've been holding onto since February 12...<strong><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2009/02/12/rhoades">Sexual Harassment and Group Punishment</a></strong>, from Inside Higher Ed. Gary Rhoades writes about required sexual harassment training and the question of whether it is effective, especially short online training modules. He notes this isn't the only area in which faculty members are required to submit to training, citing the example of human subjects research training. Near the end he asks this question:<br /><blockquote><p>...given the premise that sexual harassment has been and continues to be a phenomenon that we need to address and reduce, if not eliminate, how can such change be effected?</p> <p>This question leads to my third observation, which is that the change we seek requires an exercise of political will and an excising of cultural ills. With regard to the former, the policies and laws are in place to enable supervisors to act fairly yet aggressively when sexual harassment takes place. If we provide and cultivate the mechanisms to enable the reporting of what research suggests is an underreported behavior, then the structures are in place if academic (and other) administrators at various levels will systematically and appropriately be receptive to reports of harassment, forcefully pursue those cases, and perhaps most important of all, be evaluated by their own supervisors according to whether they do so. With regard to the excising of cultural ills, <strong>we must all take responsibility to embed in our daily lives a pattern of interaction that clarifies, monitors, and maintains boundaries of appropriate behavior.</strong> Among the cultural ills we need to address head on is not only sexual harassment (and a range of hostile and chilly climate issues), but also the academic cultural norm of not confronting the bad behavior of peers. An argument could be made that as a profession academics are much better at disputing colleagues' scholarly positions and ideas than we are at sanctioning the behaviors of peers...<strong>It is our responsibility as a profession, to embed in our consciousness and in our daily practice a vigorous commitment to and promotion of a profession free from sexual (and other forms of) harassment.</strong> Fulfilling that responsibility (which runs much deeper than public but relatively superficial, virtual steps like requiring everyone to undergo training) will better enable us as a profession to benefit and learn from increasingly diverse populations of colleagues and students, thereby more fully realizing our potential as an academy and as a society. </p></blockquote> <p>Right on, Gary. (Emphasis added by me.) </p></li> <ul></ul></ul></div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Fri, 04/03/2009 - 13:10</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/blog-i-am-reading-today" hreflang="en">Blog I Am Reading Today</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/geekalicious" hreflang="en">Geekalicious</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/linkfest" hreflang="en">Linkfest</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/recruit-retain" hreflang="en">Recruit, Retain!</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/resources" hreflang="en">resources</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/upcoming-conference" hreflang="en">Upcoming Conference</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/social-sciences" hreflang="en">Social Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308941" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1238797101"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.</p> <p>Ann</p> <p><a href="http://largepet.info">http://largepet.info</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308941&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XmfS_dAwOrTg2_gMjT-rTk7yEKC4rEOjYFqPjuTgXU0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://largepet.info" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ann (not verified)</a> on 03 Apr 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308941">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308942" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1238946643"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Posted this at Isis' blog, but thought I might ask you the same thing.</p> <p>In Postville Iowa last spring there was an INS operation that shutdown the Agriproccessors plant resulting in the arrest of about 400 workers who had entered the United States illegally. At this point, a large number of the people who managed the plant are facing charges of violating numerous labor laws, including child labor, otherwise taking advantage of the working in renting them housing and selling them vehicles, the plant is bankrupt and the city of Postville is economically crippled.</p> <p>The successful operation of the plant was based upon abusing and taking advantage of these workers. I'm certain this is not an isolated incident, take a look at tomato farming in Florida for example. So I am a little confused on your defense of a system clearly designed to abuse and take advantage of people.</p> <p>How do you square that?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308942&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IWWUzGPHfjKqqUcViC-w5C0kjkfQ6I7sJzSZcnZ6AbQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 05 Apr 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308942">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308943" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1239096154"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nice trolling. Who in their right mind would defend "a system clearly designed to abuse and take advantage of people"? Obviously, that's not an accurate representation of my words or intent. Nor is it of Isis's post, which, if you had bothered to actually read and listen to what she says, you would know. Saying that one should not demonize illegal immigrants, advocating that perhaps they ought to be treated decently and given access to reasonable opportunities in this country, is clearly not the same thing as supporting the system that exploits them and their labor. But you knew that before you left your comment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308943&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5-iNoJH7J1Qc4yA-wt-sJkVqcKjaxIlGbGs1dOWO87A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 07 Apr 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308943">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308944" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1239116269"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska, if you use one of the primary arguments of those defending the system, "Americans don't want those jobs anyway," it shouldn't suprise you if someone sees you as defending the system.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308944&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_lPTh-Nm-SoyqC1-94PMpYbGTCUvcftUl_2b1yLf7IY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 07 Apr 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308944">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308945" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1239499764"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If youâre slightly familiar with my blog, you know that Iâm currently involved in a sexual harassment legal nightmare: the second day after meeting my new boss at my new job, the married SOB grabbed me, kissed my neck, and propositioned me three times! I notified the CEO and human resources. Nothing was done. I needed to be hospitalized, to take anti-anxiety/anti-depression medicationâmost recently, my job threatened to have me arrested for theft because I didnât return their laptop as quickly as they wanted. Now, my lawyer is fighting with their lawyer (and I am finding out, painfully, that the law is very weak to protect/help victims of sexual harassment/discrimination. In fact, the law goes out of its way to protect small companies like mine from being sued for sexual harassment!).<br /> Anyway, since this nightmare has consumed my life for the past several months and will likely consume my life, time, and attention for the next several months, I figured I might as well try to make something positive come out of all of this.</p> <p>WHO AM I?<br /> Despite my âCrazySexyMetalChick!â moniker, Iâm actually an honest to goodness writer/scholar:<br /> I have a B.A. in Professional Writing from Penn State, Summa Cum Laude, 2008.<br /> I received the Penn State Professional Writing Program Achievement Award, 2008.<br /> I was a news writer and copy editor for the Penn State Collegian.<br /> I was published in New York Newsday at age 12. </p> <p>THE PROJECT<br /> By the end of this year, I should receive my M.A. in Liberal Studies from Stony Brook (Iâd like to go onto the Ph.D. after that). However, I must complete a research paper/project. For my project, Iâm considering a study of individualsâ experiences with sexual harassment, company policies regarding sexual harassment (both written policy and what is actually doneâoften two very different things!), the application of the law, the inefficiency of current laws, the differing verbal/nonverbal communication styles of men and women in the workplace and how this can lead to sexual harassment, etc.<br /> Iâd like to collect and examine stories of sexual harassment from women (and men), preferably current situations or situations which have occurred within the last 5 years. </p> <p>WHY SHOULD YOU BOTHER TO HELP ME?<br /> 1.Iâm a Humanities/Social Sciences grad student. Everyone knows that such academic pursuits are strictly labors of love and as such, students in these pursuits deserve to be pitied and helped. Besides, maybe I can get my research paper published (not for profit, of course), and we all have an obligation to help push knowledge forward.<br /> 2.Sharing your story would likely be cathartic for you as well as for me.</p> <p>Iâll likely be collecting stories until 9/2009 or 10/2009, since my paper will be due 12/2009. If you think you have a story youâd like to share with me, please email me: <a href="mailto:agirlandherjob@gmail.com">agirlandherjob@gmail.com</a><br /> Thanks! Love yas!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308945&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9xQJ_YHBFHK59QrCnskXk8EH55cmO2lXFqruAdycmQE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://crazysexymetalchick.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CrazySexyMetalChick! (not verified)</a> on 11 Apr 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308945">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2009/04/03/links-for-4-3-2009%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:10:41 +0000 thusspakezuska 115794 at https://scienceblogs.com Links for 03-20-2009 https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/03/20/links-for-03-20-2009 <span>Links for 03-20-2009</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><strong>NSF ADVANCE Workshop For Women Transitioning to Academic Careers </strong></p> <blockquote><p>The University of Washington's ADVANCE Center for Institutional Change received an award from the National Science Foundation ADVANCE program to hold <a href="http://www.engr.washington.edu/onramp/">professional development workshops for Ph.D.-level women</a> in industry, research labs, consulting, or national labs who are interested in transitioning to academic careers in STEM. The first workshop will be held October 18- 20, 2009.</p> <p>This workshop will be very helpful to women interested in making the transition to academia. The workshop speakers will primarily be successful women faculty members who began their post-Ph.D. careers in industry, research labs, consulting, or national labs. The attendees, speakers, and workshop organizers will form a community who can support each other during the job application period, the interview process, the startup negotiations, and the first years in academia.</p> <p>Please note, this workshop is NOT designed for research faculty, PhD students, graduate students, or post-docs on university campuses. It is instead targeted toward women who hold Ph.D.s and are currently working in industry, research labs, consulting, or national labs. </p> <p>The workshops will be limited to 30 participants. <strong>Registration is free</strong> and some travel funding for airfare and hotel will be available.</p></blockquote> <p>More good stuff after the jump. </p> <!--more--><p><strong>Feminist Press "Women Writing Science" and "Under the Microscope" Projects</strong></p> <blockquote><p>Women Writing Science is a National Science Foundation-funded project of the Feminist Press at CUNY to encourage women to pursue careers in science, technology, engineering, and math. The project takes a unique approach: using biography, fiction, and history to investigate the gendering of science and technology, and show how women have defied stereotypes to achieve success. Debut titles are now available at the <a href="http://www.feministpress.org/">Feminist Press website</a>. These and other materials will also be available on <a href="http://www.underthemicroscope.com/">Underthemicroscope.com</a>, a pioneering social networking site sponsored by IBM, the CUNY Graduate Center, and the Feminist Press that connects women interested and involved in science and technology.</p></blockquote> <p><strong>Gender Discrimination Info for Women and Men in Medicine</strong></p> <p>Linda Brodsky, MD "is a respected pediatric otolaryngologist who, after learning she was a victim of gender discrimination, took action and became an "accidental crusader" for pay equity and women's rights." She now has a new website designed to educate and inform women and men about <a href="http://www.lindabrodskymd.com/">gender discrimination</a>. This looks to be a particularly useful resource for women and men in medicine. </p> <p><strong><a href="http://scienceblogs.com.br/">ScienceBlogs Brazil</a> has launched! </strong></p> <blockquote><p>ScienceBlogs Brazil brings together the most original and influential voices within the Brazilian science community, some of whom have already won accolades for their blogging. Edited from São Paulo by Carlos Hotta and Atila Iamarino, ScienceBlogs Brazil launches today with 23 Portuguese-language blogs on topics ranging from genetics to the environment. "I think we need people committed to raising scientific awareness in Brazil," said Carlos Hotta, "and I am certain that ScienceBlogs Brazil will turn our local voices into global ones." </p> <p>With its growing science community and emphasis on science as a cornerstone of economic growth under a multi-year, multi-billion dollar Science, Technology and Innovation Plan of Action for National Development, Brazil is emerging as a vital player in global science culture. The country is the fifth most populous in the world and has over 67 million Internet users. </p> <p>"We are thrilled with the growth of ScienceBlogs around the world and the rich conversation that it engenders," said Fabien Savenay, Senior Vice President for Seed Media Group, the parent company of ScienceBlogs. "We are excited to now bring this conversation to South America."</p></blockquote> <p>Maybe you can't read Portuguese - I can't - but here's a post translated into English: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com.br/rastrodecarbono/2009/03/women_on_science_-_margareth_m.php">Women in Science - Margareth Mee and Maria Werneck de Castro</a>.</p> <p><strong>Radio Series on Women in Science Wins Gracie Award:</strong></p> <blockquote><p>A series of radio programs about the changing role of girls and women in science and engineering--funded by the National Science Foundation--has won recognition as the winner of two 2009 Gracie Awards. These awards are made by American Women in Radio and Television, a non-profit organization that has worked since 1951 to improve the quality of broadcast programming and the image of women as depicted in radio, television and cable.</p> <p>Produced by WAMC-Northeast Public Radio in Albany , New York , "<a href="http://www.womeninscience.org/">The Sounds of Progress: The Changing Role of Girls and Women in Science and Engineering</a>" is a two-part project. Part I is a series of eight stories that examine groundbreaking research and the implementation of research-based practices throughout the U.S. designed to increase the role of young girls and women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM). Part II offers 26 two-minute radio modules about fascinating women throughout history who were pioneers in STEM fields--from the first woman professor of physics in 18th-century Italy to a Civil War surgeon who was the first and only woman to be awarded the Medal of Honor--as well as stories researched and recorded by middle school-age girls about their favorite women in STEM.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://seedmagazine.com/">SEEDMAGAZINE.COM</a> has a new look!</p> <blockquote><p>The content of the site is now divided into four departments with subcategories in each, which makes for a total of 11 areas of coverage. The departments are: World (politics, development and environment), Ideas (findings and theory), Innovation (technology, design and business) and Culture (books, art and events). You can go straight to one department, or view the latest stories from every department on the homepage, color-coded according to which they fall under. There's also a new tagging system- each article is tagged with relevant keywords, and a tag menu on the lefthand side of the page also allows you to search for all articles tagged with a specific keyword ("globalization," for example, or "proof," or "democracy").</p> <p>If you click on the yellow "Studio" button in the upper right corner of the site, you'll see all slideshows, videos of Salon dialogues, Revolutionary Minds, an interactive rendition of the Universe of 2009 and more to stimulate the senses. The Zeitgeist, highlighting four of the top stories in science every day, and featured blog posts are still there, too.</p></blockquote> <p>Enjoy!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Fri, 03/20/2009 - 10:30</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/linkfest" hreflang="en">Linkfest</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/recruit-retain" hreflang="en">Recruit, Retain!</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/resources" hreflang="en">resources</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/what-theyre-saying" hreflang="en">What They&#039;re Saying</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/workshops-and-conferences" hreflang="en">Workshops and Conferences</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/technology" hreflang="en">Technology</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308806" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1237573008"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska, the book Taking on the Big Boys by Ellen Bravo is looking pretty good. I haven't read that one yet. There's a chapter online which details how the "big boys" operate against women.<br /> From the chapter (free at <a href="http://www.ellenbravo.com/">http://www.ellenbravo.com/</a>):<br /> they<br /> 1) minimize (what problem?)<br /> 2) trivialize (THAT's not a problem)<br /> 3) patronize (you don't get it)<br /> 4) demonize (you're fucked up)<br /> 5) catastrophize (your solution is DOOMZ!)<br /> 6) compartmentalize (someone else will suffer)</p> <p>I'm wondering if the book comes with a step-by-step way of getting through each point IRL. I do love the catchy "We have to do more than smash the glass ceiling - we have to redesign the building." But before I go buying another book on "feminist solutions" that tells me what I'm already intimately aware of and offers little in the way of practical solutions, I'm asking have you (or any readers) read the book?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308806&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lmt5iHrYwVmwXt5db3e39PDWj5KcTgB1bBoeRDezXd8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308806">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308807" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1237586116"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JC, that's a great summary of typical reactions to complaints of gender discrimination! I haven't read the book you're referring to - I actually wasn't even aware of it. The info on amazon says the book offers solutions, but I think the question is what kind of solutions, and what are you looking for. Are you looking for what you can do as an individual to avoid, mitigate, minimize the impact of gender discrimination upon yourself and your career? Or are you looking for what you can do to organize for broader long-term systemic change to make things better across the board for all women? My gut feeling from the description I read is that the book may focus on the latter. Which is not a bad thing. We need that along with the "how do I survive this hellhole" type books. But maybe that isn't what you were looking for?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308807&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZxdvSG4D-SuyqltjP1y7YqUEJVD6xSYf2jt3rzsBAME"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 20 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308807">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308808" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1237592143"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>thanks Zuska. I'll take one for the team and cough up the cash. My curiousity is peaked.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308808&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OGXERUdHumRjmgCyAvx6ANC-_sL4F1syALanZdQN2-8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 20 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308808">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2009/03/20/links-for-03-20-2009%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:30:48 +0000 thusspakezuska 115786 at https://scienceblogs.com Sexual Harassment Lawsuits: Even When You Win, You Lose https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/03/01/sexual-harassment-lawsuits-eve <span>Sexual Harassment Lawsuits: Even When You Win, You Lose</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Reader JC left <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/02/why_do_we_think_only_really_hi.php#comment-1431081">a comment</a> on a recent post about <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/02/why_do_we_think_only_really_hi.php">sexual harassment</a> that led me to a <a href="http://feministlawprofessors.com/">Feminist Law Professor</a> post on a sexual harassment lawsuit against <a href="http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=8618">Brigham &amp; Women's Hospital</a>. It is a post well worth reading, if you have ever wondered why more women don't sue over sexual harassment, or why women don't just speak up immediately and complain at the first sign of harassing behavior. Maybe you have been secretly suspecting that women who file sexual harassment charges or lawsuits just have some ax to grind and/or are trying to ruin some Nice Man's career because they are bitter pre-/post-menopausal shrews and are just doing this to get sympathy. Uh huh. Well, read this, my dears, and be disabused of all your false ideas and pretty fantasies about how easy it is to file these lawsuits, and just what it means to "win" one. Here's a taste:</p> <blockquote><p>So even if you get a verdict like this, the amount is barely enough to cover the costs of litigation (that's definitely true here) because the impact of the attacks on your livelihood, professional reputation, etc. is minimized. You of course realize that this woman is now marked for life: she will never, never, ever, get a job offer from any other hospital in this country. So, the bonus payoff here is, she gets to work in an environment where she is ostracized, despised, feared, and hated - barred from any leadership position - and will never be taken seriously as a decision-maker or policy-maker - for the rest of her professional life. And that's because she WON!</p></blockquote> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Sun, 03/01/2009 - 10:34</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/burns-my-shorts" hreflang="en">Burns My Shorts</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/naming-experience" hreflang="en">Naming Experience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235989483"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for posting this. I've never actually filed a lawsuit for these reasons. But I've made formal complaints. And Vanessa Merton is so right - I was a marked, trouble-making bitch from that moment onward.</p> <p>I won't even mention sexual discrimination or harassment around people I work with. Just the topic alone has led people to avoid me in the past. Employers fear the publicity and cost of a lawsuit. Perpetrators quickly work to belittle and dismiss the professional abilities or mental state of their accuser. Coworkers sense that being associated with the accuser will damage them as well. I know someone here will accuse me of being a coward for not *trying* to make things better - but I have tried to make a difference, more than a few times. I simply cannot afford to sacrifice my job once again.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6V10-c9a1FA6wTNOekrgOWfGVZQzK9QBjU4bIYMHFPw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">stickypaws (not verified)</span> on 02 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1236005033"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There was a section on a training course I did once that was supposed to deal with sexual harrassment. The _only_ thing the instructor, and all the men on the course, wanted to talk about was how to avoid being "falsely accused". Leave your office door open, that kind of thing. No mention of which behaviours constitute harrassment, or what to do if you suspect a colleague of harrassing students, or anything. To their minds, harrassment didn't even exist except as a thing of which crazy wimmins might suddenly accuse you, against which men need to be able to defend themselves.</p> <p>I was somewhat pissed off, and said so, but nobody paid much attention.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bpkB62tuM0DdizpHRYW5abBB77oACYvRmuPdR3PZH80"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://capacioushandbag.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MissPrism (not verified)</a> on 02 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1236022657"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Coincidentally there is an utterly out-of-touch editorial in Salon about the same issue,<br /><a href="http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/03/02/sexual_harassment/index.html">http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/03/02/sexual_harassmen…</a></p> <p>At least the commenters got it right.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BeTtZbfztSs9pP1urYNA9jjr2-TwfY_Z98YdtPRVXYY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iltc (not verified)</span> on 02 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243640252"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for posting this. I am a woman who filed a sexual haressment suit. Its been about two years now, and I still cry everyday. At times I fall into deep depression. I loved my job, but now I.....The fight that one takes on when filing a sexual harrasment suit can not be put into words. All because one refuses to be disrespect and demands justice. My life has been stolen from me. I dont recognise it. But this article lets me know, Im not alone or even crazy about how I am feeling. No amount of money in the world can replace the life that was stolen from me. I dont want a new one with money. I want the one I had befor. Living check to check,happy and whole. Not Broken</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ii6ODs_efVCesKfohOIwei64O7PHT2CQ9cSlwQbN01c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Justice (not verified)</span> on 29 May 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1243710307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Justice, I cried for a while too. The stigma of "telling on him" will follow you, not the asshole. He's happily claiming everything was a big misunderstanding. Fuck him.<br /> You're not crazy. I was told I was crazy too. I was told I was alone, stupid, a fucked-up bitch who should mind her own business, you know the demonization drill.<br /> Own the anger. When someone asks, say "Yes, he's a fucking asshole and I reported him." Do whatever you need to do to find what makes you happy. The happy moments will slowly outnumber the shitty moments.<br /> Most of all, take care of yourself!!!<br /> JC</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="B3QPD-r_UaK1gu0XMKwb-l1y7ZRz8F5VkPiabY5ZXt4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 30 May 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1250969348"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am going thru this right now. My boss has sent text messages, emails and called my personal cell phone. I have all the documents to prove my case. I went to the head of the company and made a formal complaint. I am now having to deal with seeing him everyday. He will not speak. We work in a enviroment where we have to talk to each other. He had told others that he was doing me a favor, he had went to bat for me, I should be flattered. No one stops to talk to me anymore because of this. I don't sleep, bearly eat and it is taking over my life. I went to a councelor that deals with these cases (actually taught the class at my work place) and she feels I have a case. I have contacted a lawyer to review my documentation. I am so scared. Should I even persue this? I am actively looking for a new place to work. What do I do? Let him get away with it? He is making me so miserable I don't even want to go to work. What dod I do?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nXb2ZH3QsP_qnewt3NgSBEARCB2gtEd-fErriYHQEf8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">RD (not verified)</span> on 22 Aug 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1252975741"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know exactly what all of you feel. I filed a lawsuit. Even my lawyer accused me of provoking my ex boss. I lost 7 months of my life. I was so scared, depressed I could not go back to work. My finances went to ruins. So suffered my children. I now have an open case, where I cannot prove all that happened. If I lose, I have already won, for having the courage to speak up. For moving on &amp; finding a better job, where woman are respected.I still cry when I read these types of things.No one understands unless they go through it,the extent of humiliation that is felt. Not every woman out there wants to "sleep around". do believe some have honest hearts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6pN3hGX8fIm19m2KqOJlFmjgBhX7DBhd8INYzi2aRDc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ma (not verified)</span> on 14 Sep 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1254302606"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am going through a situation myself, I have spoke up and filed a grievance. The company continues to ruin my life. However my attorney reassures me that in the end it will be in my best interest. I have been out of work for the entire month due to this and because of the loss of income I am financially sinking. All I can do is keep my head up and my best foot forward and hope it all works out in the end...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vR2jBSK82UMHJJWvVcaNyespUfcJakHc1Fv4KDgBpQ4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mary Bryer (not verified)</span> on 30 Sep 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1256220369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know what you women are going through.this happened to my girlfriend. she was afraid to tell me because of what i would do to this guy. but she was fed up one day and told me what had happened. She is now speaking to an attorney. so you all keep your heads up and dont let no one put you down. GET LEGAL ADVICE</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xRW9gHGb_PGm1SJA2QGxe60r77awb_sFyTE1Xjow3c0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Luis (not verified)</span> on 22 Oct 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308747" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1261867294"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know exactly what women feel when violated by the person they have entrusted their future to. My boss openly harassed me for nearly three years. He made my life a living hell. I made the mistake of giving into his wishes in order to keep my job. At this time my husband was out of work and we were in the process of building a new home and had two very young sons. Bad mistake on my part!! He immediately starting threatening to tell my husband and fire me if i stopped sleeping with him. He told everyone on the job that i was his lover and that they should not ever talk to me. My work environment became horrible daily. I was receiving threatening letters from co workers and my work was always sabatoged or questioned. My boss eventually called my husband and told him lots of things about our sexaul encounters. He also went through my company and personal cell phone and called friends of mine and discussed dirty details. When i tried to find other emplyment, he threated to "spill his guts" to any new employers and would often makes jokes about how "OJ" got off for killing his wife. I lost nearly $50,000 of my yearly income and my husband. Really considering filing charges, I have nothing else to lose at this point. I did manage to save approx 400 text messages highlighting his request for sexual favors or being terminated. I even have the text messages he sent to my son asking about my relationship with my spouse. I constantly told my immediate supervisor but nothing happend because they are very close.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308747&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1nKaBFhTRO30kvzQuMre9m0D3wQWlFljiNyBfPKm9CQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">tracey a (not verified)</span> on 26 Dec 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308747">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2009/03/01/sexual-harassment-lawsuits-eve%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sun, 01 Mar 2009 15:34:57 +0000 thusspakezuska 115773 at https://scienceblogs.com Why Do We Think Only Really Hideously Evil Human Beings Could Be Sexual Harassers? https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2009/02/24/why-do-we-think-only-really-hi <span>Why Do We Think Only Really Hideously Evil Human Beings Could Be Sexual Harassers?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's certainly a tragedy when anyone takes their own life. I feel very sorry for the surviving family members and colleagues affected by the suicides of two U. of Iowa professors accused of sexual harassment who took their own lives last year. </p> <p>And yet. I have little patience with <a href="http://chronicle.com/weekly/v55/i24/24a00101.htm">this <em>Chronicle of Higher Education</em> article</a> about them. You can file it under the category of "but he was such a really wonderful person! There's just no way he could have done these things!" Or, alternatively, "Those TERRIBLE women RUINED the lives of these WONDERFUL men!" </p> <!--more--><p>In the case of Arthur H. Miller, we can say that we don't know. Certainly the allegations against him - offering students A's for letting him touch their breasts - were serious and even of a criminal nature. Even though</p> <blockquote><p>The university's Office of Equal Opportunity and Diversity had found enough merit in the complaints that it planned to hold a formal hearing on the charges last August, says Mr. Loh, the provost.</p></blockquote> <p>and even though the campus police arrested him on a felony charge of soliciting sex for grades, we do not know the full and final story because Mr. Miller's suicide preempted any hearing or trial that might have sought to establish the facts. </p> <p>Mark O. Weiger's case is slightly different. Mr. Weiger was the subject of a June 2007 sexual harassment complaint that, according to his colleagues, ended that fall in a finding that he had made inappropriate remarks. Mr. Weiger was found to have done at least some of what his accuser said he did. She also filed a complaint with the Iowa Civil Rights Commission, and she was given a right-to-sue letter. She was also not the first person to file a lawsuit against Mr. Weiger.</p> <blockquote><p>In 1994 a former graduate student filed a lawsuit that made accusations strikingly similar to Ms. Milligan's. The suit was dropped before it went to trial. </p></blockquote> <p>I think we can conclude that in Mr. Weiger's case there wasn't just smoke; there was some fire there, too. </p> <p>But even if, in both cases, we weren't exactly sure, the article would still bother me. Because the tone it takes is one of bewilderment. <em>How could such nice, nice men find themselves in such difficult circumstances?</em> The implication is that if one has an outstanding reputation as a scholar, has a wife or partner who loves him, has colleagues who respect him, and friends who like him, why, then it's just not possible to imagine that he could ever, ever, ever do something so nasty! Why in the world would those women be saying these things? It just doesn't make sense! </p> <p>The article doesn't come out and call the women liars, because we are too PC for that. Instead, it focuses on a supposed "vendetta" that a female Iowa administrator had against Mr. Miller, and his crazy complaint that she concocted the sexual harassment charges. Yes, I can just see her rounding up several undergraduates and getting them to go testify that the professor offered them grades for a titty peep show. Makes much more sense. You know how those evil harridan women are when they get a little power. </p> <p>Oh, and we also have the "nice woman".</p> <blockquote><p>Vicki L. Hesli worked with Mr. Miller for 20 years. She is the only female full professor in the political-science department and has served as its director of graduate and undergraduate studies. She would have been an obvious point of contact for any female students who felt uncomfortable with Mr. Miller. But, she says, "I never heard a complaint of any kind." </p></blockquote> <p>Well, that settles it, then. I mean, she had ovaries, so obviously she would have been someone that women felt comfortable talking to, because women are all the same. And especially if she was good friends with the person they wanted to complain about, I'm sure they'd have gone right to her. </p> <p>Here's some real irony for you. The guy the university found guilty of inappropriate comments?</p> <blockquote><p>Late last month, the music school held a memorial concert for Mr. Weiger, in part to coincide with what would have been his 50th birthday.</p></blockquote> <p>Meanwhile</p> <blockquote><p>Ms. Milligan is still pursuing her lawsuit against the university and against Mr. Weiger's estate. She says the university should have known about Mr. Weiger's offensive behavior and stopped it. The attorney general of Iowa has filed a response on the university's behalf, saying the institution handled her complaint appropriately.</p></blockquote> <p>And the <em>Chronicle</em> has written a nice, long article about both Mr. Weiger and Mr. Miller, extolling their virtues, telling us what wonderful guys they really were, leaving us to shake our heads and wonder how anyone could suspect them of anything. </p> <p>Yeah, like that find upstanding <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2007/09/the_authorities_always_looking_2.php">Tracy McIntosh</a> at Penn. </p> <p>The fact is, you can't pick sexual harassers out of a crowd. They don't have a mark on their foreheads. They aren't necessarily obviously vile creatures (though they <em>are</em> vile creatures.) They may be the neighbor next door, your colleague down the hall, the eminent scholar in your field. They wear the guise of respectability and it does us no good to go around saying "but he seems so nice! surely it can't be him because he's NICE!" Surely it can't be him because they evidence says not. Not because he's nice. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Tue, 02/24/2009 - 10:27</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/apologists-oppressors" hreflang="en">Apologists for the Oppressors</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/burns-my-shorts" hreflang="en">Burns My Shorts</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/isnt-it-ironic" hreflang="en">Isn&#039;t It Ironic?</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-offenders" hreflang="en">Sex Offenders</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/miller" hreflang="en">Miller</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/u-iowa" hreflang="en">U. of Iowa</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/weiger" hreflang="en">Weiger</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/education" hreflang="en">Education</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235491279"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>See also Samuel Kent, a federal judge in Texas who just the other day pleaded guilty to some pretty horrendous sexual abuse charges. The community was shocked, of course!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w37s6Kh6nxwLbguBAjhmjh-8CyVEE6gkLfckWYFW8GY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joe (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235497796"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>arrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh adfjha dlfadlkfj</p> <p>ahem. I agree. Shame on Chronicle.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kaciETCAYtS3yuMqTSG1Pj7BgE3Tdx-zi9w9p6sDBBY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://volcanista.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">volcanista (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235498671"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>our legal system has created a black/white victim/predator dichotomy without the ability to acknowledge the shades of grey on both sides. The definition of sexual harassment has become dangerously broad. When (even if true) <i>finding that he had made inappropriate remarks</i> becomes an offense to trigger suicide, one wonders what kind of a world we have created.</p> <p><i>Ms. Milligan is still pursuing her lawsuit against the university </i> </p> <p>of course, we wouldn't want the death of the defendant to interfere with that, now, would we.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l12m6pJRSmbUf5lox8a02jwX5KimO0H272UuyXeZa-Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jay (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235499477"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>jay, that's legalspeak. Getting that label does not mean he said things that were just mildly inappropriate by common parlance standards. It meant they were inappropriate in a <i>harrassing manner</i>. Harrassment can be verbal. It sure as hell counts.</p> <p>Justice is important, and not about revenge, so yeah, pursuing the case after his death can still be a reasonable step.</p> <p>Have you ever been sexually harrassed? Your comment makes me wonder.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uWrpgFMt1LfFHR8Jgi3aBtnyzRHpNdG-DElsIwr7ypY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://volcanista.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">volcanista (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235499692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>(makes me wonder if you could possibly understand what it's like, that is.)</p> <p>I wanted to add that it's not about what kind of a world we "have created." It's about the kind of a world we are in, where a victim can be so traumatized by how she was treated that this legal action made sense. And about the kind of world we would rather live in.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yDPShl0GsnNCK9BMQGDdLGGYlDq7Y7jVScENC8ElJlQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://volcanista.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">volcanista (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235503530"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jay, "dangerously broad?" are you fucking kidding me? DANGEROUS FOR WHO?</p> <p>I've been sexually harrassed by a prof while I was a student. It took FIVE women coming forward for him to get fired. FIVE! I was the first to report. Women who report sex harrassment do it to PREVENT FUTURE WOMEN FROM BEING HURT!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308696&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aydSxZeMDHe6n-KGEky4ZPFBrFqBdbSjs47rLQ_UaLY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308696">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308697" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235505748"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>But he was always so quiet! So polite!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308697&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wadPt3MDoMNT8XFpByw_FkD1PPv4SdfXA4TWNXuW3V4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://thegreenbelt.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">The Ridger (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308697">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308698" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235505798"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have to wonder the truth of the allegations in that the defendants would rather commit suicide than expose the true story behind the allegations. If they were innocent of serious wrongdoing, then standing trial ought to be a minor deal. Sexual offenders should not be afforded protections to hideout in academia.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308698&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Rl5cai7sZFfivGShb_6pteVV12bGyd-7T0TeclKewwI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://academiccrossroads.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Academic (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308698">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308699" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235505879"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And Jay? How many other professors are being protected? Wouldn't want the death of one to license the others... or would we? </p> <p>Besides, the university is the defendant, not the dead guy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308699&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gLNiMITUr9JqZM-UX5SqEMQ-GKpNKFJF8DNys3zJ45Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://thegreenbelt.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">The Ridger (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308699">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308700" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235512224"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Ridger makes an important point in response to Jay. The ongoing lawsuit is against the university, as well as Mr. Weiger's estate. Against the university, the allegation is that they should have known about the harassment and taken steps to stop or prevent it. Universities can be liable to legal action when employees commit harassment, if they know about the harassing behavior and do nothing to stop it or to prevent its reoccurrence. This is a separate issue from any liability of the individual harasser. If the woman who was harassed is suing for damages, she is legally able to pursue her suit against Mr. Weiger's estate even though he commited suicide. It is unfortunate for Mr. Weiger's heirs that he has left them to deal with this situation. But just because he chose to kill himself, doesn't mean that she should be denied her legal means of recourse.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308700&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lIoheAPhROzLK18olFTz7ZnKWLMyWNUQKo_1Flce2SE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308700">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308701" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235512788"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree with most of what you said. I don't get this part, though.</p> <blockquote><p>Here's some real irony for you. The guy the university found guilty of inappropriate comments?</p> <blockquote><p>Late last month, the music school held a memorial concert for Mr. Weiger, in part to coincide with what would have been his 50th birthday.</p></blockquote> <p>Meanwhile</p> <blockquote><p>Ms. Milligan is still pursuing her lawsuit against the university and against Mr. Weiger's estate.</p></blockquote> </blockquote> <p>Are you saying that because Professor Weiger was convicted of sexual harrassment, his students honoring his memory is in poor taste? That every good quality he might have had just flew out of him like a popped balloon, and the people who knew him should just regard him as nothing more than a sleazebag? Please clarify.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308701&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="crxUn9SCRHK6HgVoW7LBKna0gQ6PxSZLQTQXOc7my9A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brandon (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308701">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308702" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235549767"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Homo-Sapiens and chimpanzee are 99 % of common genome, the current man is 1 % of common genome with the magazine(review) Playboy. Why?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308702&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HKF5__6ruleGZzGQRcYfaPEYi6kfjGINQ4SIPD1ib24"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">humorix (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308702">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308703" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235565815"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Are you saying that because Professor Weiger was convicted of sexual harrassment, his students honoring his memory is in poor taste? That every good quality he might have had just flew out of him like a popped balloon, and the people who knew him should just regard him as nothing more than a sleazebag?</i></p> <p>I live in the Iowa City area and judging from the comments on the local media's websites when these stories broke, the criminals were the women these men harrassed. They were called liars, prostitutes, whores, etc... Not directly, given the policies of the forums, but the meanings were very clear.</p> <p>Zuska is right to point out the irony of honoring this dishonorable man. Weiger's good qualities could not have flown out of him like a popped balloon, the few good qualities he may have had would only have uncerimoniously trickled out on to the floor.</p> <p>Mr. Weiger and Mr. Miller beign the cowards they were, took the easy way out and in the process intentionally laid the reponsibility for their deaths on their victims.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308703&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GCYouVDBM9CiK4MxXiMrLM4fBnuIW1I7_KF0y10CpJ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308703">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308704" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235567329"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Brandon,<br /> It is not his students honoring him in an unofficial capacity for his work. It is the music school holding a memorial concert, which I think would count as official university endorsement. It <i>is</i> in poor taste. It underscores how lightly we as a society take harassment of women. And I think you need to take that observation from Zuska in conjunction with the frustration with the tone of the chronicle article that is the subject of the rest of her post.<br /> I have a feeling that if Weiger's crime were not sexism, but some other -ism that we as a society have progressed enough to find abhorrent far more easily, I doubt if the university would've even allowed their name to be associated with celebrating his memory after he was found guilty. They would have distanced themselves, if not with true contrition, then at least as a matter of policy to avoid being branded insensitive to the -ism in question.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308704&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_TdtoqtWEDMRHuegZVInF09ZvmhmHYh2wd_XbnSCLhE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://arvindsays.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">arvind (not verified)</a> on 25 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308704">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308705" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235567776"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wanted to qualify my sentence:</p> <p>"I doubt if the university would've even allowed their name to be associated with celebrating his memory after he was found guilty."</p> <p>to say:</p> <p>"I doubt if the university would've even allowed their name to be associated with celebrating his memory after he was found guilty <i>(at least so soon after his death, while the victim is still fighting her case)</i>."</p> <p>Also Joel, thanks for the additional light. I am not surprised. We live in a society where male judges throw out (already severely under-reported) rape charges because they think the victim doesn't "look like" she was just raped. The default assumption is either that the victim is lying or that she asked for it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308705&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="29uTSIOc4yhGLWCH2GcXmqPTdO1998b9SB-jj-P0Fds"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://arvindsays.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">arvind (not verified)</a> on 25 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308705">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308706" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1235736763"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This will burn your shorts, but also give 1.6 million small-happees. </p> <p>Female Neurosurgeon/Asst Prof at Harvard filed sex harrassment against Male Dept Chair. </p> <p><a href="http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=8618">http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=8618</a></p> <p>It's just peachy that the Boston Globe features a picture and the qualifications of the asshole. I puke on his shoes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308706&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wdN1XwCnV6GdgN50sUyCppx19u3u0uttAjeuBR1JvAg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jc (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308706">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308707" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1236009845"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Can't read the article, but oh, the irony that one of the men is named Arthur Miller. I wouldn't be surprised if the term "witch-hunt" gets bandied about by his defenders.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308707&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zQOflVaFV3GVz8Ur69lQFXPPP_E8NmLCglEkKbheYo8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alecto (not verified)</span> on 02 Mar 2009 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308707">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2009/02/24/why-do-we-think-only-really-hi%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:27:16 +0000 thusspakezuska 115765 at https://scienceblogs.com Women Paid Poorly, Men Behaving Badly - What Else Is New? https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2008/11/07/according-to-the-chronicle-new <span>Women Paid Poorly, Men Behaving Badly - What Else Is New?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>According to the <a href="http://chronicle.com/news/article/5443/female-professors-at-u-of-texas-austin-earn-9000-less-than-male-peers"><em>Chronicle Newsblog</em></a></p> <blockquote><p> Female professors at the University of Texas at Austin earned an average of $9,028 less than their male counterparts in 2007, and senior female faculty members there feel more isolated and less recognized for their work than do their male colleagues.</p></blockquote> <p>You can find the full report <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/news/attach/2008/3133_Gender_Equity_Report.pdf">here</a> and a press release from the university <a href="http://www.utexas.edu/news/2008/11/03/gender_equity/">here</a>.</p> <p>The comments section at the Chronicle post is full of the usual dismissive commentary that arises whenever the issue of gender inequities in salary is broached. I liked this response from <a href="http://chronicle.com/news/article/5443/female-professors-at-u-of-texas-austin-earn-9000-less-than-male-peers#c027566">Meshiko</a>: </p> <!--more--><blockquote>It amazes me that despite the fact that year after year after year, report after report after report demonstrates that women are paid less, respected less, and promoted less, that many purportedly educated folks have a hard time accepting the data. You can pretty much always quibble about one or more methodological aspects of a study, but when hundreds of studies using different methodologies all reach the same conclusion, it is a bit difficult to deny it. But then, our president doesn't think global warming is real.</blockquote> <p>In another <a href="http://chronicle.com/news/article/5452/california-biologist-refuses-sexual-harassment-training-putting-job-at-risk">Newsblog post</a>, we learn about Alexander McPherson, molecular biologist at the University of California, who is refusing to attend a state-mandated two-hour training course on sexual harassment, at the risk of his job.</p> <blockquote><p>A molecular biologist at the University of California at Irvine faces the possibility of being put on unpaid leave because he won't attend training sessions on preventing sexual harassment...Such training, Alexander McPherson [said], is a "sham," and he has consistently refused to take it because, among other things, it "violated my rights as a tenured professor" and "cast a shadow of suspicion on my reputation and career." </p></blockquote> <p>You can imagine the vigorous debate this piece generated in the comments section! The training is useless! He's being forced to waste his precious research time! This training course is a waste of valuable resources at the hands of failed-academics-turned-administrators! Being "forced" to take this training violates academic freedom! </p> <p>A string of replies says more or less the same thing: get over yourself, you pompous ass. It's a job requirement. You want the job, you comply with the job requirements. Besides, it's a CYA thing for the university and for the individual. Yes, maybe the training is a bit simplistic and could be better done. But you wouldn't believe how many numbskulls there are out there who have no idea that behavior they consider perfectly acceptable is actually sexual harassment. </p> <p>I really liked this comment, though, by <a href="http://chronicle.com/news/article/5452/california-biologist-refuses-sexual-harassment-training-putting-job-at-risk#c027623">voiceofreason</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>I'm sure MacPherson and other posters have endured far lengthier and insipid trainings around lab safety protocols or purchasing procedures and complied without proposing "compromises" to the university or funding agencies. I have taken this training seminar as well, and the whole thing took almost no time at all. The outsized response in these posts and by MacPherson belie that a different issue is at play. The issue is not "time" or "getting work done" because the outlay is miniscule. So, what is that these people are opposed to?</p></blockquote> <p>The "compromise" McPherson proposed was "[to ask] the university to sign a disclaimer that says that he must take the training to remain employed and that he has never sexually harassed anyone that he has supervised."</p> <p>Hmmm...makes you wonder why exactly he's so anxious to have this official proclamation of his innocence. It's not like he's being singled out to take this training course, so that people might look askance at him because of it - every employee has to take it. In any case, as voiceofreason suggested, I can't imagine someone getting their knickers in such a knot over mandatory lab safety training. This is, pure and simple, resistance to an attempt to create a cultural norm of official disapproval and discouragement of harassing behaviors. You can argue about how effective the particular effort (the training course) is, but what, really, is the problem with giving two hours to learn a little bit about how to spot, prevent, and deal with harassment if and when it should occur in your work group? Mr. McPherson is so obsessed with defending his own virtue, so to speak, that he fails to see his responsibility: to help create an environment where harassment is not acceptable, and to deal effectively with it should it occur with someone he supervises. One doubts that Mr. McPherson cares much at all about that responsibility. No wonder he's so eager to obtain an official absolution. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Fri, 11/07/2008 - 12:22</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/report-roundup" hreflang="en">Report Roundup</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/why-there-are-no-women-science" hreflang="en">Why There Are No Women in Science</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308210" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226087487"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Hmmm...makes you wonder why exactly he's so anxious to have this official proclamation of his innocence"</p> <p>He's just a moron?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308210&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1MXytkMMUxb6IbDyama23Tg4jb9jM5aZHRy8mGG3HB0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 07 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308210">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308211" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226127589"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can't believe this guy. I've gone through lab safety training on multiple occasions (moved to a different institution, they had slightly different rules), been forced to take a radiation safety class even though my lab didn't use radioactive materials, endured full-day "new employee" training sessions at the hospital where I worked that have no relevance to me (it dealt with things like HIPAA, but I never worked with human patients at all, just mice), went to an entirely new employee training session because the hospital was doing some rebranding of its message (or some crap like that), and am required to take refresher courses on animal care and use every couple of years. It's annoying, but we do it because it's institutional policy. Everyone does it. And to take a stand specifically against the sexual harassment training in exclusion of any of the others is a little offensive. It's important that I know how to deal with sensitive patient information that will never, ever cross my desk, but not important that this schmuck know how to correctly interact with 50% of the population?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308211&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y0_T-rPJ9gwUF6d60XN5wi8WvZ9Ox2PYmEVdSHGPsDY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 08 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308211">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308212" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226132645"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The final point that you make is a very important one. I was a victim of harassment in the academic workplace, but was sufficiently concerned about the effect that it would have on my (then nascent) career, that I would not have filed a complaint had it not been for my supervisor. He had witnessed the incident, told me in no uncertain terms what he thought of the senior professor concerned, and suggested that we write a joint letter of complaint. Without his backup and support I would have been too scared (this guy was very senior and controlled funding for our project) to do anything. If, on the other hand, I had been working for someone who had made it clear that he thought harassment training was a waste of time, I would never have reported the incident. Perhaps this is the kind of atmosphere that McPherson wants to create, so that none of the little ladies 'cause trouble', but I would certainly never work for anyone with that kind of attitude. Here's hoping that he misses out on a lot of good female talent coming through his lab in the future.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308212&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lNdQkNqqzytVuDh2RWkj3b9yUsGXwUMHYay1BPUDa30"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Polytrope (not verified)</span> on 08 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308212">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308213" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226141292"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>This is, pure and simple, resistance to an attempt to create a cultural norm of official disapproval and discouragement of harassing behaviors.</p></blockquote> <p>BINGO! Great post, Z!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308213&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-MYbdMA0uqgHJIrnME5wounMd-SCRJ_xvWvHDanxrNc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Comrade PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 08 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308213">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308214" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226423102"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm still completely grossed out by all the commenters at Chronicle who feel that sexual harassment is A-OK and a routine privilege of tenure, that there is something wrong with anyone who would not actually WANT to be told, "the only way you can make an A in my class/finish your defense/get tenure is by having sex with (nasty pervert). Hur hur hur!" I was kind of hoping that attitude was confined to my alma mater, where they had since purged the worst offenders. </p> <p>I notice that the bane of faculty, RateMyProfessors.com, does have several reviews noting that some professors make inappropriate comments and sexually threatening remarks in class. Apparently in the UC system, you can throw a brick and hit someone who desperately needs to be told something as simple as "don't try to get in your students' pants."</p> <p>This is rather why I feel people should get extra points in the tenure-awarding system for ever having held a non-academic job for some time, with a good reference. It helps show that you have some modicum of professionalism. Not as a rule, but it's a helpful generality. Without fail, all the grad school professors I've had who were NOT career academics were reasonably professional in their dealings and had a sense of personal boundaries.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308214&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vppnvp_TOw3I9XtH1cBiPl1bd5chEelfh0-pGifTyl4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lora (not verified)</span> on 11 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308214">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308215" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1226506871"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>At my college there was actually not a rule about 'fraternization' until my sophomore year. In the very early years of the college some of the students and professors did end up getting married (I believe male students), so the staff was unsure about how to change the rules. Then one professors started doing drugs, selling drugs, and sleeping with a student he was teaching. I'm going to be generous and say she had terrible taste in men, because it wasn't like she was a bad student.</p> <p>That said, there was tons of sexual harassment training, because there were so many more men than women. It was also strongly peer-enforced, at least among students.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308215&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UHMqcgAgnGsrfzMkJcDsZr6fLdCnkebNI_hJzVURRMc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 12 Nov 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308215">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2008/11/07/according-to-the-chronicle-new%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:22:33 +0000 thusspakezuska 115728 at https://scienceblogs.com A Reply to Dr. Isis https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2008/09/24/a-reply-to-dr-isis <span>A Reply to Dr. Isis</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A warning: if you are a survivor of sexual assault you may just want to skip this post and the ensuing ugly comment thread it is sure to engender. </p> <p>A week or so ago the redoubtable Dr. Isis wrote an <a href="http://isisthescientist.blogspot.com/2008/09/open-letter_10.html">open letter</a> to me.</p> <p>In part she wrote:</p> <blockquote><p>The pragmatic part of me wants to agree with you that there is no place for open ogling in the workplace. The other part of me fears that there may be a hint of truth in Greg's argument that we are inherently sexual beings... </p></blockquote> <p>I see no reason to fear the truth that we are inherently sexual beings. But the fact that we are sexual beings does not mean that women just have to put up with tit-ogling in the workplace because men are just incapable of controlling themselves. One can both be a sexual being AND exercise self-control. This point has been made before but apparently it bears repeating: tit-ogling in the workplace is not just, or only, about sex. It's about power, dominance, and control. This has little to do with us as sexual beings and everything to do with patriarchy. </p> <p>Dr. Isis also <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2008/09/women_and_their_sexy_hawt_bodi.php#comment-1098027">commented</a> on a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2008/09/women_and_their_sexy_hawt_bodi.php">blog post</a> of mine:</p> <!--more--><blockquote>However, I am surprised by the number of women who have posted comments on a blog I wrote on a similar issue confessing to have also used their hooters to their advantage to manipulate a male colleague.</blockquote> <p>But this isn't surprising. Sexuality is one of the few ways that patriarchy allows women to exert influence; it makes sense that some women will try to take advantage of it. If we are to be treated as sex objects, then it is to be expected that some of us will deploy our objectified bodies to obtain favors from powerful men. This, however, should not be confused with women, as a class, actually wielding real power over men, as a class. </p> <p>In my response to Dr. Isis I also said this:</p> <blockquote><p>...that power is essentially illusory, because we don't really wield sexual power over men - men as a class wield sexual power over women as a class via the fear of sexual assault. </p></blockquote> <p>and that statement seems to be what freaked Dr. Isis out enough to make her write her open letter. And yet, Dr. Isis herself admits:</p> <blockquote><p>I would gander that I do not have a reader that has not, in some way, had their life or the life of someone close to them affected by rape.</p></blockquote> <p>Exactly. </p> <p>We alter our behavior, we think twice about how we dress, we ask for escorts to walk us across campus at night. This is because we are taught to worry about the stranger in the bushes, which is part of the way rape/fear of rape operates to control the lives of women. The cultivated fear of the stranger in the bushes operates to narrow the possibility of women to move freely in society without sanction.</p> <p>It seems to me that Dr. Isis and some of her commenters think that if one is <em>personally</em> not afraid of being raped by the department chair, or while walking to one's car at night, then there can't be any issue about pervasive fear of rape. But the sad truth is, we live in a <em>rape culture</em>. Jill at Feministe said, as <a href="http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/feminism-friday-two-posts-from-jill-at-feministe-on-rape-myths-vs-statistics/">quoted on the Feminism 101 blog</a></p> <blockquote><p>Statistically, a woman is most likely to be sexually assaulted in her own home. Women are victimized in private far more often; it's men who are more likely to be victimized in public. People here are taking issue with your statements because there's a broad rape narrative which tells women that leaving the house to socialize, to go to parties, to date men, whatever, opens them up to violence. <strong>That constant threat of rape is used as a tool of social control against all women.</strong></p> <p>In reality, men are 150 percent more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women. Men are more likely to be both victims and perpetrators of crimes. Men are more likely to be assaulted, injured or killed when alcohol is involved. Men are more likely to be victimized by a stranger (63 percent of violent victimizations), whereas women are more likely to be victimized by someone they know (62 percent of violent victimizations). Women are more likely to be victimized in their home or in the home of someone they know, whereas men are more likely to be victimized in public.</p> <p>So the constant narrative of "why do women go here when they know they might be raped?" isn't innocent, even if you mean it that way. It adopts a greater framework that has always been used to keep women docile and domiciled. It's men who are more likely to experience violence at places like frat parties, but no one suggests that they simply stay home or don't socialize in a particular way, because <strong>everyone assumes that men are entitled to live in the public space as they see fit. Women don't have that kind of entitlement. </strong>That's why feminists get pissed off when people suggest that women shouldn't go certain places or do certain things because they might get themselves raped; it's both inaccurate and part of a larger misogynist message.</p></blockquote> <p>Emphasis added by me.</p> <p>It is in this way that fear of rape operates to constrain the lives of women as a class. But as Jill said, women are more likely to be raped or sexually abused at home, by someone they know. Paradoxically, we are not only not taught to fear this intimate assault, we are taught to embrace it through popular culture narratives as disparate as Ayn Rand's objectivist blather and Disney's ubiquitous princess blandishments. </p> <p>Not a few present-day feminists read <em>The Fountainhead</em> in their youth and once thought "ooh, Howard Roark, he's so dreamy!", then grew up to realize "hey! that Howard Roark dude is a rapist!" That's what living in a rape culture will do for you. It will make you think a romanticized presentation of rape is actually a romantic, even heroic, love tale. It will make you think that a passionate woman must never actually verbalize her sexual desires nor willingly engage in sex, but instead must passively wait for a manly man to overpower her disdain and resistance. THEN she can love him and have sex with him, because he's proven himself worthy. The manly man, of course, should ignore her disdain and physical resistance, because what she really wants is for him to TAKE her. </p> <p>But you can't wait for the kid to get old enough for Ayn Rand to start the rape culture training. No, little boys and girls must be <a href="http://www.meeko.org/disney/mermaid/lyrics.html#kiss">instructed about proper courting behavior</a> from an early age. </p> <blockquote><p>Yes, you want her<br /> Look at her, you know you do<br /> Possible she wants you to<br /> There is one way to ask her</p> <p>It don't take a word<br /> Not a single word<br /> Go on and kiss the girl</p></blockquote> <p>It's a perfect package. Inculcate fear of the stranger, constrain women's behavior and mobility, deny the real threats women face in the home, and romanticize intimate coercion and rape so that women feel confused about what has happened to them, and at all times feel guilty and responsible. </p> <p>Dr. Isis, you are a kick-ass blogger and no doubt, as you proclaim, a domestic and laboratory goddess. But you are a tad naive, and bit sloppy in your argument. Just because I subscribe to a grim view of reality doesn't mean I think that reality is unchangeable. For god's sake, I'm the one arguing that men are actually able to control themselves and ought to be expected to be able to keep themselves from ogling tits in the workplace. </p> <p>And by the way, I'll look forward to hearing from you, someday, exactly how it is that women "exert dominance over men in reproduction", because as I look around me in society, I don't really see that working out so well for women right now. Or maybe I missed the part where society so reveres child-bearing and rearing that it does everything possible to provide for the well-being of expectant mothers and young children, and to make every accommodation possible to ensure that all women can truly choose whether or not they want to work and raise children or just do one or the other. You can take your time getting back to me on that one. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Wed, 09/24/2008 - 09:42</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/manifestoes" hreflang="en">Manifestoes</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/naming-experience" hreflang="en">Naming Experience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sexual-harassment" hreflang="en">sexual harassment</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308095" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222272821"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska, I think this this is an important dialogue. Thank you for the reply. I'm going to take a bit of time to ponder your thoughts (and in the meantime write about shoes), but I hope to continue the discussion...</p> <p>Best Regards,<br /><a href="http://isisthescientist.blogspot.com">Isis</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308095&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Nn3N0MoqFHfYtQKtPj4PMDFMR9tS3O9ziW6io6qoCjA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://isisthescientist.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Isis the Scientist (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308095">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308096" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222274079"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A couple of years ago when a friend was ill, she asked me to take over her workshop on sexual harassment. She gave me her materials since I had never done the workshop before.</p> <p>I decided I would go through the materials and activities while staring at the crotch of the most attractive man there. Boy howdee it soon became very clear that "turn about is NOT fair play". The whole place went rather nuts. I did apologize to the guy later privately and he was very nice and did understand why I had done it. He spoke about how embarrassed he was (and hey I did not say anything, touch anything or go into his personal space; I just stared). </p> <p>The acceptable response to "open ogling" is apparently quite different based on whose (and what) body parts are being ogled and who is doing the ogling.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308096&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cSPPbI_Zie0pPx7lj9KrQEAtoYiP_48ZzF27v4B-oWo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.FairerScience.org" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pat (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308096">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308097" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222275932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for posting this so eloquently! Well said. </p> <p>I was just wondering if you could perhaps expound on this bit:<br /><i>We alter our behavior, we think twice about how we dress, we ask for escorts to walk us across campus at night. This is because we are taught to worry about the stranger in the bushes, which is part of the way rape/fear of rape operates to control the lives of women. The cultivated fear of the stranger in the bushes operates to narrow the possibility of women to move freely in society without sanction.</i></p> <p>See, I used to run those dormitory rape awareness workshops, you know, those mandatory once-a-month things that RAs who want free room and board have to do? And the most amazing thing to me was this: After we had had a string of rapes on campus, one of which was a statutory rape of a 15-year-old who had been visiting an older sibling for the weekend and carried out (and admitted to in court!) by the preznit of one of the vaunted fraternities, there were nevertheless women who scoffed at being handed safety whistles, who had eightygazillion excuses of Why It Won't Happen To Me. We'd point out that not only could it happen to anyone--specifically, college women, more or less on their own for the first time, were at more risk for various reasons (the main one being: living in close proximity to gangs of young men with shitty judgment). And there was nevertheless a lot of denial and victim-blaming. </p> <p>And I think there is a lot of that WRT sexism in general; there's always that, "I won't get (sexism instantiation), I'm <b>special</b>, I'm gonna beat the statistics" sort of attitude in previous discussions. I would like to hear your thoughts on how denial affects women's perceptions of sexism, how women distance themselves from other women as a form of denial, thereby reinforcing and enabling sexism.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308097&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RsWbq27CqMKpuaxrNtMeX9N8OaZFfXqx_WoDLzTBZsU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lora (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308097">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308098" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222277238"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska, this is very insightful and well-written. Here is my contribution against any "ugly comment thread" that is to come.</p> <p>Two cents on the "I'm special" attitude which Lora mentions: I wonder if things like awareness workshops and special strategies, etc. contribute in some way to this attitude. After all, if we're supposed to defend ourselves against sexual assault by means of awareness, strategies, or whistles or what have you, then it seems that someone who was sexually assaulted just didn't use the proper assortment of strategies...? I'm not endorsing this viewpoint, just pointing it out as a possible subconscious effect. I know it's already said, but maybe a bigger deal needs to be made in these workshops of the fact that awareness et al. does not guarantee anything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308098&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4CMpyA1iEmXJA-nG_fcmEIp_nvRRBl9nH_POA50IRkE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.thoughtcounts.net/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thoughtcounts Z (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308098">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="138" id="comment-2308099" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222277852"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Great post Zuska!</p> <p>Even as a man, I find this kind of argument mystifying. I work at a place where there's an unusually large number of women for a tech company. Of course I notice coworkers who are attractive women - just like I notice coworkers who are attractive men, or who are particularly well dressed, or who are particularly skinny, or....</p> <p>But just because I <em>notice</em> something doesn't mean that I'm incapable of deciding whether or not to act on it. There's nothing that <em>forces</em> me to stare at the chest of a coworker who has an attractive figure. I'm perfectly able to look them in the face when I'm talking to them, and to not stare at them as we pass in the hallway. </p> <p>The idea that men are somehow <em>incapable</em> of not staring at a woman's chest is, frankly, insulting to men! It's just ridiculous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308099&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JQx90u9LfyMcfHAq2C96rd98fUAzl9oMA53wOJ0Vack"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/goodmath" lang="" about="/goodmath" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">goodmath</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308099">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/goodmath"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/goodmath" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/markcc.jpg?itok=PmLQEFZp" width="92" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user goodmath" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308100" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222281290"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, Zuska. You outdid yourself. Excellent post.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308100&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2O7YRY_avlIm_kjFlhu9lDejsixSExjqU-dw-i0pJuI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mareserinitatis.livejournal.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Cherish (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308100">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308101" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222282743"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To clarify a point brought up by thoughtcounts:</p> <p>The attitude I'm specifically thinking of was not so much the interventions inducing a sense of invulnerability, although that's an interesting example of empowerment/dis-empowerment, but rather a solipsistic sort of invulnerability: "She got (sexism) because she wore the wrong outfit, wasn't nice enough, wasn't assertive enough, was too assertive, was drunk, didn't have as many good friends, &amp;c. &amp;c." These women were deniers of sexism before getting any rape awareness info or taking self-defense courses--their point was, they didn't see the need for any self-defense or awareness because it wouldn't happen to them. That denial is what interests me, in a morbid sort of way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308101&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VowNjVFQkKrlLu-kdAmUrHJBTFmHcPX4DjS8Q4q-ols"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lora (not verified)</span> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308101">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308102" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222286021"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This seems apropos to the rape culture discussion in my post: from the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/greengabbro/2008/09/carnival_of_feminists_65.php">most recent Carnival of the Feminists</a> over at Green Gabbro, check out <a href="http://thehandmirror.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-wrapping-woman-in-duct-tape-is-not.html">this post</a> about naked duct-taped women in a get-out-the-vote ad campaign.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308102&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0DRLC_lPKZRxZVVB6L7q8GS5Ni_blAIaW9VBKdCf_ag"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308102">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308103" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222314365"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, Zuska and Isis, for having this conversation where we can all learn from it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308103&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Yn8Fv4Poje9sameLXq5Ga8dMShsjv3qJ2rRZSy34t0s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://capacioushandbag.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MissPrism (not verified)</a> on 24 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308103">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308104" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222322266"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Self-control can be a difficult subject. Different people have different abilities for self-control, just as they do in their less controllable traits. In the extreme example, telling an alcoholic that they just need to exercise self-control is not going to be enough. And while environment does have an influence in determining a person's activity, I don't see how a personal addiction has to be the result of Patriarchy.</p> <p>But I agree that the "princess" culture promulgated by entertainment and such has always struck me as strange. "Boys are supposed to court the girls." Maybe it's because I had never been good with approaching girls, that I considered such assumption ridiculous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308104&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aMjm0L2qPQD0XwbH24te9FsQp-w311CUraI9kHN4mms"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Markus (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308104">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308105" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222330633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Intersting post! You brought up some of those very key things, imho, like why women need to be afraid about going out at night whereas men are more likely to encounter violence.</p> <p>Maybe this stems a little from the fact that men in general would have more possibilities to defend themselves than the average woman against an attack from a man? Or maybe this too is something we are taught in early age and then "believe and don't challenge".</p> <p>Personally I am curious about what you say about the "date rape" when the woman doesn't want to have sex but doesn't voice it "because it's probably easier" and where/how this common behaviour can be counteract upon.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308105&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="p2xLy-Lsgxu1vmSxsanxLb0JV_hBXrp48vSSDOaG7uM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://chall-dreams.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chall (not verified)</a> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308105">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308106" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222334417"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Lora- for what it's worth, I remember mocking the rape whistles in my immature undergrad stage. Though it wasn't completely about "it can't happen to me" so much as "if it happens, a whistle will help?". </p> <p>I think the "it can't happen to me" needn't always extend to rape denial. I personally don't live my life in fear of rape. I delibrately try to view fear as irrational and to be avoided (barring evidence that there really is something dangerous about a situation). </p> <p>I was at a meeting where a future event was announced; it was to take place in the evening (5-8pm) in a nearby city. The announcer (a gentlemanly sort) made some sort of comment about "and no one needs to worry; we can provide escorts so you don't have to get back to your car alone".<br /> It actually <i>took me a while to figure out what he was talking about</i>. I realized then what it means for most people to live in a culture of fear, and how it was probably enormously more common than I realized. </p> <p>I'm not saying to women afraid of rape "you should feel differently". I am saying "it's possible to feel differently" and that I want to work on making it easier for everyone (any take back the night rallys coming up?)</p> <p>Evil-doers can either have a 1/(large number) chance of ruining a segment of your life, or you can give the <i>fear</i> of violence dominion over all of your life. And that's not limited to women and rape (terrorism fear-mongering anyone?).<br /> I think that saying "it's not going to happen to me", can actually be a very mature response...<i>if</i> you couple that with sensible behavior and utmost compassion for victims.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308106&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dFQmww02qQURI6BCy1e9TkulfnlrS7SFPOPdRlbDmWY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Becca (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308106">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308107" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222345157"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hear, hear, Zuska. Well put.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308107&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2x_y85k-7OrX-x0W3Lp_GbQ6buUrYZCzRgixXEfjFek"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iltc (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308107">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308108" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222349123"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't live my life in fear of rape. I don't worry about rape when I'm in an elevator with male colleagues, or when I'm walking home alone at night through sketchy neighborhoods (sometimes I worry about being mugged, but it's not enough to stop me - I just try not to carry anything valuable).</p> <p>But all it takes is just one man calling out "hey, baby!" from his car when I'm walking home at night to <em>absolutely scare the crap out of me</em>. One relatively innocuous but definitely sexually aggressive move, and all of the fear I have been trained to feel - and that I have been carefully working to untrain myself from - will come rushing in, all at once. The adrenaline rush is much stronger than the one that comes when someone approaches me with "hey, I need a dollar". So even though I don't let fear run my life, and I do view most of it as irrational, I would still say that I'm afraid.</p> <p>Men can invoke that fear with a very small remark because they're drawing on the power of rape culture. This is true even if they're just clumsy flirts - it's like men are always speaking into a microphone that amplifies any hint of sexual aggression. Rather than learning to filter out that added distortion, while still being bothered by the noise, I would rather take away the microphone.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308108&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i8vgzZF9ep747dagrNLtipCQ5U40qWaZsqysYnSLW0U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/greengabbro/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Maria (not verified)</a> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308108">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308109" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222351602"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Can someone explain to me how "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid has anything to do with rape? I'm extremely confused by this. To me it's an innocent scene in which two people who like each other are too nervous to do anything about it, and one of them can't talk. Sebastian, who is singing the song, knows that Ariel likes the prince, so he's encouraging him to kiss her, which will make her happy. There are definitely other examples of sexism in this movie, but I really don't see how this is sexist, and I certainly don't see how this is part of the rape culture you are describing. Please enlighten me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308109&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MlwevbTrtcvJwNi208OITGk79Txfn45g8f-NOAhroDY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">k (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308109">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308110" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222352916"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can not remember much from the Little Mermaid, but I do remember quite a bit from Harlequin romance novels. Go to you local bookstore and pick up any one of the many Harlequin books featuring a Cowboy / Indian / Pirate hero and innocent female heroine. All of them will have the scene of Hero forcibly kissing the heroine. Her resisting until she realizes the "great pleasure" she is about to have. If that is not romanticizing rape, I don't know what is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308110&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q_ua8S-GpnntWL6KcZj6Ae6oa5nrX79lNL2FabMg3_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scientistmother.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ScientistMother (not verified)</a> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308110">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308111" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222362234"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Becca: See, the thing I used to run into (sadly, horribly) is when women who were big-time deniers or simply, like you, did not feel they had any reason to be afraid, and then they were raped themselves--and were completely immobilized by it, unable to react in any way to protect themselves. Unable to go to the cops or a hospital, unable to get themselves counseling, just completely flailed and often ended up dropping out of school. One especially memorable young lady became psychotic and the school had to debate whether she should be involuntarily committed to a psych unit or simply expelled and made into her parents' problem. </p> <p>And there's a couple of aspects that worry/interest me about this: One, that not feeling fear in the sense of planning for disasters can prevent women from defending themselves or developing adequate coping skills, and I think it is in the predators' (sexual bullies as well as criminals) interests to keep women as naive or oblivious as possible. I know Gavin de Becker's books are a little shrinky, but I do think they are interesting in this respect. Two, was discussing this elsewhere, but I think that one positive aspect of single sex schools is that they give people a safe haven from the sexist culture, thereby enabling people to see the absurdities of it, such that women in particular can recognize sexism more readily. And I think that women who are immersed in a sexist culture have a harder time seeing anything but the most obnoxious and overt sexism because of that immersion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308111&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gJRmbo3V3DbqTTagp4sOeV1PoqSUdXQv5H-PdfGK1ic"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lora (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308111">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308112" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222386805"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lora-<br /> Although my instinct is to think "Oh I wouldn't react like that...", the truth is I don't actually know how I would react to being raped. </p> <p>However, are you making the claim that women who are afraid of rape are less likely to be raped, that they cope better when it does happen?<br /> I can see how someone afraid of rape would be less likely to go down dark alleys; or at least to be more aware of their surroundings. But in a sense, that isn't actually the rape to worry about. The rape that is vastly more likely is rape by someone you know... how can you be afraid of that kind of rape and still form close and trusting relationships? How good are we really at judging risks other people pose to us?</p> <p>Rather tangentially; I don't have to look very hard to see sexism. As a personality quirk- I think of the world as a pretty safe place but also a completely unfair one. I don't fear rape very often, but I can still see sexism all the time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308112&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6vw5e2OP6WRe7GM7KZpKOEatLnp1AGqF0bd2y46x05o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Becca (not verified)</span> on 25 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308112">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308113" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222427223"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>Can someone explain to me how "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid has anything to do with rape? I'm extremely confused by this. To me it's an innocent scene in which two people who like each other are too nervous to do anything about it, and one of them can't talk. Sebastian, who is singing the song, knows that Ariel likes the prince, so he's encouraging him to kiss her, which will make her happy. There are definitely other examples of sexism in this movie, but I really don't see how this is sexist, and I certainly don't see how this is part of the rape culture you are describing. Please enlighten me.</em></p> <p>Ok, first the disclaimer that this is one of the best songs (as a song) in the cheesy Disney soundtrack canon, such as it is. If you can bear to ignore the implications of the lyrics and the Jamaica-mon vocal performance. ahem. (If I've now ruined this for you, sorry, and a <a href="http://sundappledforest.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/off-the-florida-keeeeeeeeys/">replacement</a>.)</p> <p>The trouble is that the d00d doesn't really know that the girl (age 14 was it?) likes him. He's groovin' on her, yes. But she's been rendered friggin' MUTE by the magickz. The sidekick, Sebastian may know that the girl is liking the d00d, sure. So why not sing to HER to kiss HIM!???? Because the d00dz is supposed to mack on teh girlz, not the other way around, you see. On the girl side, even if you like the guy, even if you are rendered mute you are supposed to sit there and wait to be violated kissed. Now think about the way this is set up from the male perspective- the way to find out if she "really likes you" is to go ahead and violate her person with a kiss. That's how you find out. Not through dialog, not through a mutual dance of increased closeness, no. She's sitting way over there on a tippy watercraft and you are supposed to lay 'em on to find out! </p> <p>Now, you could argue that this is just the true-loves'-kiss mythology and that Ariel couldn't be the forward one or the magicz spellz would be fucked. But then ask yourself about the myth and what it really means.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308113&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l3eDDkjGo4TLUM2bNIrmExwHSjnw5bWJsoLKNBZ4aIg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sundappledforest.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">bikemonkey (not verified)</a> on 26 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308113">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308114" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222427401"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>dangit Z, turn on your strike tags! it blew my violated/kissed line....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308114&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jnRROsOwRG6RaqkUzdaZuFiSZ-gEGpnj7yYSEyVF1DM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">bikemonkey (not verified)</span> on 26 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308114">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308115" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222432672"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hey, Bikemonkey, great comment...d00d, I was not aware that I control the functionality (or not as the case may be) of the strike tags. Will look into that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308115&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Mhh63SMLYcZolAwcxVoXKQgmQX9r2Xrm5xGbE1PRzlU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 26 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308115">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308116" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222439997"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for the explaination, bikemonkey, I was also wondering.<br /> I had a moment of "wait, wtf? But I love mermaid!"... and then I sat back and thought about how comfortable I find the bad romance novel view of courtship in many storylines. And then I died a little inside.</p> <p>And, if it makes you feel any better, I mentally edited in the strikethrough lines for you even as I was reading it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308116&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="468VpfRHYm8xxYEQ4WlxGYiAWArpP2GO4XTX6yz3y7U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Becca (not verified)</span> on 26 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308116">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308117" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222499577"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>"The rape that is vastly more likely is rape by someone you know... how can you be afraid of that kind of rape and still form close and trusting relationships? How good are we really at judging risks other people pose to us?"</i></p> <p>Exactly! Which is why I mentioned the de Becker books, he discusses this in great detail. That predators (whether family members, "friends," or simple con artists) make a concerted effort through various techniques to distract their prey from reality, that if we have faulty information then we can't make good decisions to protect ourselves, how to judge risk accurately. Like I said, they are rather shrinky but a good read. I read 'em on public transit, and it was definitely interesting (and scary) to see prime examples of weirdo predators bothering people using all those distraction techniques while reading about it at the same time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308117&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j6Hp9bNezDSVdGcbzsnXh1k-76bIMHRxT8GNPKk7GyM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lora (not verified)</span> on 27 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308117">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308118" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222652968"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks a lot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308118&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="95x4fFEz8UlqrCh2a9v4ZKLcXKJRDhexNo0q3pHbgQ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.turkpornoizle.net" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">turkpornoizle (not verified)</a> on 28 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308118">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308119" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222688935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OK, bikemonkey, I can see the sexism in the idea that the man has to make the first move while the woman/girl just sits and waits, but I'm still struggling to make the leap from kiss to rape. Seems, to me, like a case of finding what you're looking for rather than an actual connection.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308119&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aPDWhun8n82__ntuceYS8OpyJdHmjAxTBOKDnGqpWLA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">k (not verified)</span> on 29 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308119">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308120" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222694604"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><em>Seems, to me, like a case of finding what you're looking for rather than an actual connection. </em></p> <p>perhaps. or perhaps looking for a reason, post hoc, for why I get really skeeved out listening to this song now and again. I make next to zero claims on having feminist sensibilities. Certainly no academic ones. at best, I suppose, a dad-feminist like <a href="http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=82">this guy</a>, including possibly the <a href="http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=85">"opinions and attitudes that committed feminists would find appalling"</a>.</p> <p> and like I said in the comment above, this is a great song. .....as a song. all I can say is that sometimes when thinking about what the lyrics are actually saying...<em>shudder</em>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308120&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lXyJgaiUj3Kvs4WxLI5fLSWDLZoZsgIugFvu3NMunoY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sundappledforest.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/hermione-leia-and-drew-barrymore-were-screwed/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BikeMonkey (not verified)</a> on 29 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308120">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308121" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222702763"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>dangit. "this guy"<br /><a href="http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=82">http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=82</a></p> <p>"opinions and attitudes"<br /><a href="http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=85">http://petersagal.com/wordpress/?p=85</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308121&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uzGSWbfw_z5rIiwp7MZsPsIzyR_KB7_GaFx_v2KoUGg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sundappledforest.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BikeMonkey (not verified)</a> on 29 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308121">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308122" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222777436"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>yay! all my links magically fixed and my strike tag too? you rawk Zuska!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308122&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3X2xTY-dKI7rExGAb_8T-L3Ht1RvGsaNgHxb7-LIAwo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sundappledforest.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BikeMonkey (not verified)</a> on 30 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308122">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308123" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222794141"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A blog post over at Shakesville seems apt for this post and comment thread. Here's a snippet: </p> <blockquote><p>People often misread the statement "every man is a potential rapist" to mean "every man is a rapist," or "every man would rape if given the chance," or "every man wants to commit rape." That is not what the phrase means. What it means is that because of the way rape culture operates, women must identify every man as a potential rapist, knowing full well that most aren't. Because rapists don't hang signs around their neck proclaiming themselves as such, because rapists don't act like evil bastards all the time, because rapists indeed can comport themselves as friendly, helpful, even feminist, women must be on their guard until they believe that they have learned enough about a man that they can trust him. And even then, it's a leap of faith, as anyone who's experienced acquaintance rape can tell you.</p></blockquote> <p>Go read the whole post <a href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/07/wolf-in-mans-clothing.html">here</a>. By the way, it's written by a d00d - an ally!</p> <p>Hat tip to Pat at <a href="http://www.fairerscience.org/fs-blogs/index.html">Fairer Science</a> because a link she sent me for something else set me off on a trail that wound up at that post.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308123&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TSCYbljgtaxlk2xs2UIDJEKit58A85AJ3Qx9VkTOIb0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 30 Sep 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308123">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2308124" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1222857556"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nicely put Zuska. And lots of thoughtful comments!</p> <p>I teach a lot about sex, and the worry I constantly have is that when I teach about physiological sex differences (say, the evolution of sperm and egg and internal fertilization and thus the different mating strategies males and females can employ) that my students will get reductive and, even though I explicitly say this is not the case, they will use the physiology of sex to explain/excuse violence, power and control over women. I am planning on devoting a whole lecture to the evolution of patriarchy, but I think it's worth thinking about the ways in which we permit these power structures to persist -- through a song, a less-than-thoughtful lecture, ogling, etc.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2308124&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qJBnNTMg7iRCcyl1iYiuGTybYVUFS0hTKEbb2y7Ssn4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://k8grrl.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kate (not verified)</a> on 01 Oct 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2308124">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2008/09/24/a-reply-to-dr-isis%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:42:24 +0000 thusspakezuska 115713 at https://scienceblogs.com It's SO Not Fair For You Women To Hang Out Together! https://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2008/08/05/its-so-not-fair-for-you-women <span>It&#039;s SO Not Fair For You Women To Hang Out Together!</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jenny F. Scientist <a href="http://naturalscientist.blogspot.com/2008/07/ladies-night-out.html">reports</a> the following:</p> <blockquote><p>Recently, three women joined my lab, more than doubling the female population. (Just in time for me to leave.) There was instant bonding, which I had only seen before among married postdocs or among single grad students. But it is lovely to have other women about. We go to lunch together; every couple weeks we all go out together for drinks or dinner. (Which I love, by the way.) Every so often one of the men comes along- we are outnumbered about 3:1- but mostly, not.</p> <p>Dr. S argues that this is discriminatory of me. What if the poor dears fell left out? I felt left out for years, I said. That doesn't make it right, or nice, he said.</p></blockquote> <p>She then asks, "So, are we mean? Or are we apathetic? Or both." Neither, and I'll tell you why. </p> <!--more--><p>Dr. S has made the same misguided critique that gets lobbed at people of any marginalized group whenever they gather together for comfort. "Hey, not fair, you're being exclusionary!" You will struggle mightily for years to get people to see the exclusionary practices that permeate in-group culture. But just let two or three of the out-group gather and voila! the pangs of exclusion become unbearable for the in-group members. </p> <p>What's missing from the picture is an acknowledgment and analysis of the power differential that exists between the two groups. Jenny F. Scientist and her gal pals don't have any power, by virtue of membership in the out-group <em>females</em>, to exclude men from the power centers of science, to keep them out of the conversation, to sabotage their careers or pass them over for coveted opportunities. Their gathering does not function in an exclusionary, harmful way, but in a reparative manner. That is, by gathering together, marginalized group members can help each other manage and minimize the pain, anxiety, stress, and loneliness of existing in marginal status in a less than welcoming environment. </p> <p>Cynthia Burack and I wrote about this in our article <a href="http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/nwsa_journal/toc/nwsa16.1.html">Telling Stories About Engineering: Group Dynamics and Resistance to Diversity</a> (in <em>NWSA Journal</em> v. 16 No. 1, 2004 (Re)Gendering Science Fields). It is worth quoting at length from that article here.</p> <blockquote><p>Related to the belief in and expression of intellectual superiority is the threat presented by self-segregating practices such as the establishment of institutionalized programs for women and minority students as well as lectures, classes, and other events directed at out-group students. In her whimsical definition of "womanism," Alice Walker indicates that the womanist is "not a separatist, except periodically, for health" (Walker, 1984:xi). Walker's concern with the availability of separatism to people of color "for health" can be generalized to the situation of out-group members in engineering. The unconscious group culture of engineering and its social residues can be difficult for women and minority males to negotiate without the ability to appeal to segregated spaces and the interpretive possibilities they hold. Unfortunately, when minority group members get together even in informal ways, they are likely to be labeled by in-group members as "self-segregating" and to arouse suspicion as to their motives. This happens in a myriad of ways, both small and large, creating a form of "death by a thousand paper cuts" (Knight Higher Education Collaborative, 2001:2). Examples are not far to seek:</p> <ul><li>Women are standing in public spaces (hallways, campus sidewalks) engaging in conversation with other women faculty or administrators. Men who know the women conversationalists comment as they pass by: "Say, no self-segregating here!" "What are you three up to?" "What are you two plotting now?" Groups of two or three men engineers gathered in public spaces for conversation are unlikely to be assailed by similar comments from either men or women. </li><li>An announcement for a pizza-party for women engineering students is vandalized, and male students complain to their female classmates about their exclusion. </li><li>In a set of office moves on campus, the space for a multicultural student study lounge is eliminated. The story circulates that other space needs had priority and that multicultural students should be encouraged to mingle with white students, and not to self-segregate. The need of those students for a place within their very white educational world that they could call their own is not recognized. </li> </ul><p>In-group members often complain: "we don't have a special lounge (or program, or scholarship) for whites (or men, or whoever the in-group members are), so why should they get one?" These group members are unable to see how all of the institutional structures and spaces they occupy and learn within are already their own - this is as invisible and unremarkable to them as the air they breathe. They are unable to see how those structures and spaces exclude and disadvantage out-group members, because they themselves are so very comfortable and welcomed within them. </p> <p>How can leaders in engineering acknowledge the need of minority out-group members for "safe" space while achieving the goals of integration, team-work, and mutual respect? First, leaders must be persuaded of the benefits to the program, department, or team as a whole of voluntary and temporary self-segregation. This self-segregation may work to interrupt malign group processes that marginalize or stereotype those who represent minority social groups. Those who would offer safe spaces and special programs to women and underrepresented-minority men must defend many fronts at once. They must articulate the need for such programs to those who control access to resources, while simultaneously addressing stereotypes about the unsuitability of these groups for engineering. When someone asks, "why special programs for women?" the answer must be that women and underrepresented-minority men do not need special help to be good engineers, but they do benefit from assistance in dealing with engineering culture. Thus, the special programs are not for them so much as they are for engineering. It is engineering education, as it is currently constituted, that cannot effectively welcome out-group members, and that needs an array of programs to help counteract the conscious and unconscious dimensions of science and engineering culture, practice, and pedagogy that squelch the interests of those who are different, and ultimately drive them away. </p></blockquote> <p>Jenny and her friends are getting together without the guys precisely because science is unable to welcome them on equal footing with those guys. If the guys feel excluded from the conversation with the women, they shouldn't whine about how bad they feel. They should instead think about how they can work to make their neck of the science woods a more welcoming home for all women, to redefine in-group membership in a manner that includes women. Then women's safe spaces will be the same as men's, and the men needn't worry about feeling left out anymore. </p> <p><em>References cited in the quoted text:</em></p> <p>(The) Knight Higher Education Collaborative (September 2001). Gender Intelligence. <a href="http://www.irhe.upenn.edu/Library.php">Policy Perspectives</a>, 10(2), 1-9. </p> <p>Walker, A. (1984). In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens: Womanist Prose. New York: Harvest/HBJ.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/thusspakezuska" lang="" about="/author/thusspakezuska" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">thusspakezuska</a></span> <span>Mon, 08/04/2008 - 18:04</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/daily-struggles" hreflang="en">Daily Struggles</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/naming-experience" hreflang="en">Naming Experience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sex-discrimination" hreflang="en">Sex Discrimination</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/what-theyre-saying" hreflang="en">What They&#039;re Saying</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/why-there-are-no-women-science" hreflang="en">Why There Are No Women in Science</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="132" id="comment-2307732" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217888515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes!</p> <p>Where are the SuperReaders when something like this needs to be placed on the Feed ASAP?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307732&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FyK9ick2Iw0nnqyl8hwXMdealYUZfqpqcP4OxXrZkV4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/Bora-Zivkovic" lang="" about="/author/Bora-Zivkovic" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">clock</a> on 04 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307732">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/Bora-Zivkovic"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/Bora-Zivkovic" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/Bora%20Zivkovic.jpg?itok=QpyKnu_z" width="75" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user clock" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307733" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217893421"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bora - I was going to tag this one prior to reading your suggestion. I've seen this behavior in several majority groups who have a hard time understanding why underrepresented populations need to use each other for mutual support.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307733&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4tEK0E-Jh1pFDk94PjrWK2Zmk_WJXdTvxmKgT1ZNw0s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Anonymous SuperReader">Anonymous Supe… (not verified)</span> on 04 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307733">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307734" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217909390"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>People should be able to associate with who they want how they want, how they want and if this helps make life better for people who feel excluded I'm all for it. </p> <p>That said, I'm uneasy about special facilities especially when provided for a minority by the majority. When a student union run by men sets up a 'womens lounge' it sounds a bit too much like "this is your room, the rest are ours so you stay in your own place"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307734&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XwARFpZicXdhmuZkLgZVDBEZ3yAxKmothL1E8_28kto"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Matty (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307734">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307735" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217911035"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Z, you're such a misandrist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307735&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FdrgBCkapKesm4amOIhbgZ-KWkTmtMnNbpn2PlBO0Zk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307735">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307736" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217923372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What's missing from the picture is an acknowledgment and analysis of the power differential that exists between the two groups. Jenny F. Scientist and her gal pals don't have any power, by virtue of membership in the out-group females, to exclude men from the power centers of science, to keep them out of the conversation, to sabotage their careers or pass them over for coveted opportunities. Their gathering does not function in an exclusionary, harmful way, but in a reparative manner. That is, by gathering together, marginalized group members can help each other manage and minimize the pain, anxiety, stress, and loneliness of existing in marginal status in a less than welcoming environment.</p></blockquote> <p>This is a incredibly simplistic notion of "power." </p> <p>"Johnny F. Scientist and his old boys don't have any power, by virtue of membership in the in-group males, to exclude women from the power centers of science, to keep them out of the conversation, to sabotage their careers or pass them over for coveted opportunities."</p> <p>This can be still be true, because Johnny's power to do all of these things may come from somewhere other than his membership in his lunchtime coterie. </p> <p>The fact is that power rarely comes "by virtue of membership" in informal social groups such as these. </p> <p>Power in our society mostly comes from institutions, and to the extent that getting institutional power can be attained through informal "networking" in groups like these, women can play this game as well as anyone, and do. I've seen it done in academic settings, to both men and to women who are on the outs in groups like these. I don't think it's a huge problem that we need to get all aflutter about, but I also don't think women can just dismiss this sort of moral/ethical question out of hand.</p> <p>All arguments along these lines--essentially that "minority groups," definitionally, can have no power and therefore cannot exclude or oppress anyone--are pretty arbitrary and, in fact, patronizing. As is, I'd say, turning such social gatherings into a form of group therapy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307736&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cMiiGkpiuPLiM3P7LxFz6BzTDDlzjNt93-_T_uRazes"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://adversecity.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Oran Kelley (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307736">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307737" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217924777"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is a tough one for me.</p> <p>@Oran- The notion that a social group can have a therapeutic purpose is not a bad thing. Certainly not patronizing.<br /> That said, excluding people is ugly, and no less so for being incredibly common. I agree that we can't dismiss the moral/ethical question out of hand- and I don't think this post is a dismissal of the issue. This post is making the argument that the net good (particularly for the long term functionality of the discipline) is greater than the net loss (men potentially feeling left out). I think the fact that Jenny F. Scientist has noticed (and mentioned) that the men do ocassionally come along means she isn't dismissing the issue. I certainly don't think Zuska's analysis is dismissing the issue- she seems to think men won't feel excluded if we had a culture of science that was truly welcoming to women. </p> <p>You can, of course, disagree with that point. Personally, I think anyone who has been to high school or watched primate socialization is well aware women can be exclusionary (to the point of bullying). I am inclined to think that <b> if</b> this behavior creates <i> more </i> problems in scientific fields, it very well could be addressed by a healthier attitude toward gender- and pretty much can't be solved by simply scolding women for finding pleasure in their choice of company.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307737&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LcJn3b1GC4KQoQfhhtOnYNDGxV7gw4Ag_AfkdKJIK2I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Becca (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307737">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217926784"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The notion that women excluding men is a problem in science is a complete motherfucking joke. It is as worthy of serious attention as women raping men. Does it happen? Probably. Does it matter one single fucking iota in the broad view? No fucking way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M-TSTr1HEvl3MeUTmpxAMSM7Vp91RUGF_XKQVRRAO3E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217941071"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oran, the idea that just because women can network, that means that they are not disadvantaged, is a bit weird. A 90 pound teenager on their own can throw a punch, too, but it doesn't mean they'll be able to outbox a 150 pound teenager with a coach and better training and a bunch of people telling them they can do it. Just because women are capable of competing _despite_ barriers does not mean the barriers do not exist.</p> <p>And the idea that power is not gained in such informal groups is, frankly, laughable, and you yourself do a 180, saying it is both not important and that women can do it as well as anyone, and then tie it all back to how exclusion is bad, despite there being no power whatsoever in excluding people, apparently. You might consider firming that one up and deciding which way you want it. </p> <p>Until the women in that group are just as powerful, and just as commonly accepted to be tenured, department heads, and other higher level positions, there is an inequity there between 'male networking' and 'female networking', no matter how excluded one, personally, may feel that a group of women hangs out together.</p> <p>(Also, I would like to introduce people to the Geek Social Fallacies idea, and how they are relevant when discussing feelings of ostracizing with geeks involved: <a href="http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html">http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html</a> . Nobody here hit pulling one out quite yet, but 'Ostracizers are Evil' is a very common concept that one needs to always put in context, and 'Friends Do Everything Together' is another one that rears its head when the concept of 'exclusion' comes up.)</p> <p>-Mecha</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-HvHJkxpRTheCu74g4JuxKC2edLvxxJnU8JXTcV0h0g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mecha (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217941454"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm so tired of hearing the "women going to the bathroom in groups" arguments from men. We go there in groups because it's our "safe space" - duh! I loved that my PhD school had beds and cots in every women's bathroom, that way mothers could breastfeed or pump without using some stupid pulldown plasticy piece of junk as a table, kids could lay down, hell, we all took naps in there! We instituted a "no cell phones" rule because attention-deprived undergrads would annoy the crap out of us and kill our sanity. Everytime the females would gather in an office to chat or cry or vent, some dude (prof, student, postdoc) would interrupt and butt in (sometimes even KEYING IN with the master key!). So, the bathrooms became our treehouses. I wish I had that here, and oh yeah, more women in my dept would be lovely! I'll keep dreaming. Great post.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="X70ERsgPBKoTo5w2vE8h96_2VPoOOKbjppvzcHYZ1tk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JC (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217942177"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nonsense. I'm a woman in an IT program that supports engineers, and I do just fine by focusing on <i>the common work.</i> I don't worry about my sex, and I don't allow anyone else to worry about it either. What matters is <i>solving problems</i> and <i>making good product</i> and <i>learning together</i>. My father told me I had to be a bitch to be a female engineer, and I'm happy to say he's dead wrong. </p> <p>Do I have to hang with other women preferentially to feel secure? Jesus, no. I have women friends in the workplace, and I have men friends. On the whole I've found men to take me more seriously than do women. Why should I want it any other way?</p> <p>Before I took this job, I worked in commercial real estate as a glorified secretary. They gave the entire office a class in negotiating. For my practice partner, I drew the ex-President of the location, an alpha bull of a classic Texas cowboy, one of the top brokers in the city. In our practice negotiation, he gave me too much rope, and I hung him with it. When the teacher asked why I thought I won the negotiation, I coolly said, "I didn't win it. He lost it." I noticed he treated me with a little more respect after that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_ysGMYCqut12-1lxu3qPZKrk_GyB0ZXt9gjSrzBZTWs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">speedwell (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217943347"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm teaching a girls' science camp this week, there was an article in the local paper about it today, and when I went to read the online version there was one comment, which said that it's sexist to give a camp just to the girls. Argh!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g6psQJWIcoMGTVkdpEcl2Z4KSYfgZTEBc8KIpcdQe2s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Carlie (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217946767"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Does it matter one single fucking iota in the broad view?</p></blockquote> <p>But we aren't talking about the broad view. We're talking about whether/when folks in a minority have to worry about being arbitrarily exclusionary themselves. At least that's what the post seemed to me to be about.</p> <blockquote><p>Oran, the idea that just because women can network, that means that they are not disadvantaged, is a bit weird.</p></blockquote> <p>I don't think this is what I wrote. I'm saying just because women in aggregate may be disadvantaged that doesn't mean that they have no worries about being exclusinary.</p> <blockquote><p>And the idea that power is not gained in such informal groups is, frankly, laughable, and you yourself do a 180, saying it is both not important and that women can do it as well as anyone, and then tie it all back to how exclusion is bad, despite there being no power whatsoever in excluding people, apparently. You might consider firming that one up and deciding which way you want it.</p></blockquote> <p>To clarify: Power is not something one gets "by virtue" of being in a lunchtime group. At best, lunchtime group participation may be one way of getting, say, tenure or a favorable review or a nice fellowship or an easier ride with your committee or whatever.</p> <p>And insofar as this sort of informal sociality can be a means of getting power for oneself and ones friends and excluding others, women can play the game pretty well. I've seen it in departments where women HAVE gotten power and I've seen it used ruthlessly</p> <p>The argument I see in the beginning of this piece is essentially that women, as the oppressed minority group have nothing to worry about as individuals as to how they may exclude the majority group. I think that's wrong. </p> <p>It may be that Jenny has nothing to worry about, but the question goes to the case: Jenny can't just say "I am a woman, I can do no wrong in this regard."</p> <p>I think there may be plenty of good reasons why women may want to have a women-only event/facility whatever. But the argument has to be made from the particulars of the case.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k5ny7b82J2i9KOyimqlYg82fNt7IWB8ZLqrdUw7OvaM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://adversecity.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Oran Kelley (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217947443"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Okay, I think that's perfectly clear now. Power is not something one gets in a lunchtime group, except that it is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f2cF1DlhZeEut9Ivy9PyllJfYx8IteDnJl5sWTUuV_o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217948458"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>We're talking about whether/when folks in a minority have to worry about being arbitrarily exclusionary themselves. At least that's what the post seemed to me to be about.</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p>I think there may be plenty of good reasons why women may want to have a women-only event/facility whatever. But the argument has to be made from the particulars of the case.</p></blockquote> <p>Dude, I think you are very confused about the purpose of Zuska's post. I'll give you a hint. It's not to "make an argument", provide "good reasons", or decide whether women "have to worry" about anyfuckingthing at all.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MEoAzf-OLbJLgdau7LjtjIOYZhgQTyImOn2t9rUkWLQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217948613"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zuska: Exactly! </p> <p>And Oran, you're protesting something that never happened. If this were the only X lab, and these women were the only ones in charge, and they kept kicking men away from their lab, then maybe your theoretical case and theoretical protest would start to matter, but the only case that is being discussed is where women are being told that, by having women-only social activities, despite a _3 to 1 male to female ratio_, they're being exclusionary. It was nice of her to consider it, and all, but... seriously. Zuska's response was not tailored towards that, either. So what are you trying to get at that is in any way productive here?</p> <p>Zuska's response was towards the particulars of the case, not some sort of strange hypothetical lab in which women hold all the power. The case that is almost always the case that happens, and is the same situation that happened in the referring post, and the same one that the paper quoted refers to: A small group of women, outnumbered massively by men, happen to have found social support and enjoyment by spending time together, and a man is telling them that's wrong because they're not inviting enough men along to ruin that feeling of social support, and that they're feeling ostracized. So, again, what are you actually getting at that is relevant here?</p> <p>I don't see the 'Women can't ever do anything wrong' angle here. I do see a very clear response to a very standard 'But the women are being excluuuuusionary despite our outnumbering them and having more power as a group!' complaint.</p> <p>-Mecha</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mpKQ8hDpLS6sh3OFtM_WspoKzv0HE039OEwJdlKve88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mecha (not verified)</span> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307747" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1217969540"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I get it, Speedwell. You don't feel the need for nor do you want the company of other women. You are identified with the men. You are an INDIVIDUAL, not a woman! No structural systems or institutionalized cultures affecting your life. Good for you. If it's working for you, that's nice, keep it up. But why are you so threatened by other women who do want to get together with each other?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307747&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Nx1HwQ1KvhId48bZ2zKQ3G86n6Zno5mEcaxlrc17_rw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zuska (not verified)</a> on 05 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307747">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307748" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218007526"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If you'll point out where I said I felt "threatened," or what I said that leads you to conclude that and why, I'll be happy to address that specific point. But I'm not going to be baited into giving a knee-jerk response to an overheated scare word.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307748&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zdOWmAhCzrzLxkboKz13isYJ0MriPNLRLVVqgZCHtlw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">speedwell (not verified)</span> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307748">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307749" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218008840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Dude, I think you are very confused about the purpose of Zuska's post. I'll give you a hint. It's not to "make an argument", provide "good reasons", or decide whether women "have to worry" about anyfuckingthing at all.</p></blockquote> <p>Well what the fuck does this mean then?</p> <blockquote><p>Jenny F. Scientist and her gal pals don't have any power, by virtue of membership in the out-group females, to exclude men from the power centers of science, to keep them out of the conversation, to sabotage their careers or pass them over for coveted opportunities. Their gathering does not function in an exclusionary, harmful way, but in a reparative manner. That is, by gathering together, marginalized group members can help each other manage and minimize the pain, anxiety, stress, and loneliness of existing in marginal status in a less than welcoming environment.</p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307749&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JjK-jjMurRxHnW4q0LpLzb9x1udGtwVhvuU5dIxuRZc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://adeversecity.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Oran Kelley (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307749">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307750" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218012488"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dr. S is a dumbass. Some people are thinking about this way too hard, IMO.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307750&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kvpDJPZrv1GS1XQV9l0-Y8WTSiPjs2D_XxxXeyEcgP4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.im-geiste.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Samia (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307750">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307751" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218020251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Well what the fuck does this mean then?</p></blockquote> <p>It is a description of what those women are doing. The purpose is not to provide an "argument" or set of "reasons" why those women should not "worry" about what they are doing. If you are looking to be convinced of anything, you are in the wrong place.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307751&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dy9Qj7OXjwDVxYJvuQocYBb-0f5B8Vj6uGscsZHu92U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307751">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307752" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218025398"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Okay, I think that's perfectly clear now. Power is not something one gets in a lunchtime group, except that it is. </p></blockquote> <p>Ah, here, we'll try again.</p> <p>You've heard of direct and proximate causation?</p> <p>My argument is:</p> <p>Institutional position is the direct cause of personal power. Lunchtime sociality is, sometimes, a proximate cause of personal power. Very few people, in any case, can say they have power "by virtue of" whom they eat lunch with.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307752&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IrqyeSLr2yr50lA__X4WQPnYgjwG1UiKJ_J__n8Xjyw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://adeversecity.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Oran Kelley (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307752">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307753" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218025808"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>PhysioProf:</p> <p>The quoted passage is not a description of what is happening, I'm afraid, that's the <i>interpretation</i> of what is happening. </p> <p>In short, it is an argument about what these events/circumstances mean. If you can't fucking see that, sorry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307753&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RNKbEUJjIqocCG3dB6cSF0DU8HhjYG_fF1LSgTPJ51c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://adversecity.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Oran Kelley (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307753">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307754" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218030896"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The quoted passage is not a description of what is happening, I'm afraid, that's the interpretation of what is happening.</p> <p>In short, it is an argument about what these events/circumstances mean.</p></blockquote> <p>It is not at all important that your interpretation of the quoted passage (or the post in general) be consistent with the interpretation of its intended audience.</p> <blockquote><p>If you can't fucking see that, sorry.</p></blockquote> <p>There is no need to be sorry. I have no trouble understanding your interpretation of Zuska's post. It's just that your interpretation is not relevant for present purposes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307754&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hJJreAUUFjTR5lDWsi__dqRvVeiIU_SIIm5-nFqEh7o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://physioprof.wordpress.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</a> on 06 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307754">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307755" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218094514"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Another great post, Zuska.<br /> Where were you when I was in my grad program??</p> <p>I could have used someone to explain things. Sigh.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307755&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xQXEKSr0PdbVPTRA8eqF_2L6zm5K3rHJ37Dc3h7oV4o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://membracid.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">bug_girl (not verified)</a> on 07 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307755">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307756" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218145044"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Mecha- I love the social fallacies. I've seen all of them at some point or another. I have a case of GSF#1, combined with a weird idea that being around people who I find jarring builds my character. So the social/interpersonal dynamics surrounding the issue of "how does it feel to be left out" was definitely the first thing that came to mind on this post.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307756&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xkNC68uWtpS0Rsu-3N_aDxQqvsQxelhu6xCe4_W0jNA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Becca (not verified)</span> on 07 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307756">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307757" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218158444"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, I so hope my field reaches the stage where women professionals can hang out together. I can only dream.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307757&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y5genVmYUg49y8PnMNrOrjaO4FJNKDImtALrMGl2v14"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://kea-monad.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kea (not verified)</a> on 07 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307757">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2307758" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1218185713"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In my lab at the moment there are seven women and four men. We all get on fine and there are no sex-only groups. </p> <p>I can see why Jenny would want to have a bit of time just with her female friends though. My friendship group contains more girls than boys and we sometimes go out for 'girly nights' together (they're not very girly though, we did end up watching rugby in one of them). The boys felt excluded so we told them: "OK, you guys have a 'boys night' then." They ended up wandering around the bars and finished up in someones room playing risk.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2307758&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XtWp2Jyhroytw6pCNYuBgWfw1RgO9x6jQyelTB-PQ2k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://madlabrat.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lab Rat (not verified)</a> on 08 Aug 2008 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/29628/feed#comment-2307758">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/thusspakezuska/2008/08/05/its-so-not-fair-for-you-women%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 04 Aug 2008 22:04:50 +0000 thusspakezuska 115699 at https://scienceblogs.com