NaturalNews.com

Google delists Mike Adams' NaturalNews.com. His hilarious tantrum about the "conspiracy" behind it is epic, as is my schadenfreude.

oracknows — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:00:30 +0000

Google delists Mike Adams' NaturalNews.com. His hilarious tantrum about the "conspiracy" behind it is epic, as is my schadenfreude.

Regular readers here are probably familiar with Mike Adams and his website NaturalNews.com. Forget the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, when it comes to wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet, NaturalNews is the wretchedest, scummiest, and quackiest. Not surprisingly, Adams got his start in wingnuttery selling Y2K scams nearly 18 years ago. Now, besides presiding over a scammy online publishing empire that racks in considerable green by publishing articles laced with quackery, antivaccine pseudoscience, character assassination, and thuggery, both legal and getting a bit too close to inciting violence, Mikey fancies himself a scientist. (He also fancies himself a rapper and musician, but the less said about his rapping and vocal stylings, the better.) He's even gone so far as to purchase a used mass spectrometer and use it to analyze everything from his competitors' supplements to Flint water to the flu vaccine, resulting in pure hilarity (to real scientists) and, unsurprisingly, an interview with America's Quack, Mehmet Oz, on The Dr. Oz Show and an instant quack bromance. Basically, if it's quackery and pseudoscience, very likely Adams embraces it and probably profits from selling it. More recently, Adams has become a die-hard Donald Trump supporter and a rising star in the alt-right.

In the interests of full disclosure, I must reveal the reason for my schadenfreude. First, it appears that, for unclear reasons, Google penalized NaturalNews.com today, as Len over at Telapost noticed:

Today someone asked me why they could not find a website in Google search. The website is “Natural News” (http://naturalnews.com/).
Indeed, the site has been penalized by Google. This means, for whatever reason, the site does not show up in Google organic search. I tested the subdomain blogs.naturalnews.com as well, and it too is penalized.

Len goes on to note that he's seen sites disappear for a day or two and come back, but as of right now he noted that NaturalNews.com is definitely missing from Google Search results. I myself also did some tests and found the same thing. At least as of my writing this, NaturalNews is:

If you are not active in the world of SEO you may call it blackballed, sandboxed, blacklisted, delisted, etc. It means your website has been removed from Google’s search results. Some penalties are algorithmic, others are manual, meaning a person at Google manually penalized the website for violating Google’s webmaster guidelines.

So we don't know why NaturalNews was penalized by Google, nor do we know if this penalization is permanent, brief, or long term, but this is serious business:

As mentioned above, this could be a fluke. Or, maybe there are a tremendous amount of bad links pointing at them- I doubt that though- the site is 10yrs old.

I googled a recent post and it had been mentioned nearly 3,000 times in just days that I could tell, which means it has likely been cited significantly more than that. That is a tremendous amount od SEO value. From what I can tell, the site should be ranking very well. But, that said, there is only so much I can tell by just glancing around. I do not have access to what I would need to determine why the penalty occurred.

This must be fairly recent as SimilarWeb estimates that 31% of their 6,500,000 monthly hits are via organic search.

When I searched for NaturalNews.com on Google, I got Adams' Facebook page. I got a bunch of entries about Natural News, including RationalWiki's and a couple posts by me here and at my not-so-super-secret other blog. I got a couple of domains owned by Adams and linked to NaturalNews.com, such as NewsTarget.com, Healthranger.com, and TruthWiki.org, all domains that do not appear to be affected. But I saw no direct links to NaturalNews.com. On Twitter I've been getting reports from the UK that Adams' site appears to have been delisted there as well.

Of course, it's possible that, by the time you see this, Google will be indexing NaturalNews.com again. Or not. SEO might as well be black magic to me, and I am not wise in the ways of Google. I am, however, amused at Mike Adams' reaction. Those of you familiar with Adams knows that to him everything is a conspiracy, and this is no exception. It couldn't possibly be that Adams did something to trigger the penalty and that there was no malice on Google's part (which is almost certainly the case). Oh, no. It had to be The Man out to get him, as this gloriously unhinged screed posted yesterday by Adams entitled GOOGLE blacklists Natural News… removes 140,000 pages from its index… “memory holes” Natural News investigative articles on vaccines, pharma corruption, fraudulent science and more. Naturally, the reason Google penalized and "delisted" his website is retaliation:

Late last week, I received a direct threat that warned if I did not take steps to destroy Alex Jones and InfoWars, I would be targeted for destruction in a campaign of smears, censorship and defamation.

Instead of giving in to the enemy, I refused to take the bait and went public with details of the threat, warning everyone in the new media that sinister forces were now being pursued to undermine and silence every anti-establishment (and pro-Trump) voice on the internet.

True to form, today the entire Natural News website has been blacklisted by Google, entirely without warning.

As is his usual M.O., Adams linked the delisting of his flagship website to...well, everything, including the fall of Milo Yiannopoulos, the alt right troll known for his misogyny, slurs against and outing of LGBT people, and general nastiness. Apparently, none of that was too much for conservatives who embraced him for being "politically incorrect," but when he spoke way too blithely about pedophilia, even appearing to defend it and joke about his molestation by a priest as having taught him how to give better fellatio, that was too much and he was disinvited from speaking at this week's CPAC conservative gathering and forced to resign from Breitbart. Of course, it was the "opposition research" and a "cynical media witch hunt" that brought him down. Then there's InfoWars having been "blackballed" by AdRoll, thus cutting into Alex Jones' profits. Then, of course, there were those evil liberals pummeling the Shopify e-commerce platform to dump the Breitbart online store. Then there was this:

Today, Natural News has been hit by Google, which has blacklisted the entire Natural News domain and removed over 140,000 pages from its index. The take down of Natural News happened this morning, and it follows a pattern of censorship we’re seeing being leveled against other pro-Trump websites. Google sent no warning whatsoever to our “webmaster tools” email address on file with them. The shut off of Natural News was clearly driven by a human decision, not an algorithm. We’re currently attempting to determine Google’s claimed justification for censoring our entire website, and we hope to have NaturalNews.com restored in Google’s index.

Schadenfreude feels so good. I truly enjoyed reading Adams' rant about how you are "witnessing a modern-day book burning by the internet Gestapo that now decides what knowledge you’re never allowed to access… especially because much of that knowledge can help set humanity free." I mean, I knew Adams was grandiose, but this is ridiculous, so much so that it's worth quoting at more length than I normally do, so that you, too, can laugh at it without actually having to visit NaturalNews.com (although feel free to do so if you like, and tell Adams Orac sent you). Read it in all its unhinged glory:

Natural News is, of course, one of the world’s top educational and activism sources exposing the lies of dangerous medicine, toxic mercury in vaccines, the corporate-quack science behind GMOs, cancer industry fraud and so on. By providing truthful, empowering and passionate information to the public, we harm the profit model of the corrupt medical cartels that fund the media, lobby the government and influence internet gatekeepers with advertising money. (Google has already declared war on natural medicine and nutritional supplements, all but banning them from being advertised on Google Adsense.)

The removal of Natural News from Google’s index means that millions of people may now be unnecessarily harmed by toxic medicines, herbicides and brain-damaging mercury in vaccines because they are being denied the “other side of the story” that’s censored by the corporate-controlled media. By censoring Natural News, Google is, in effect, siding with the criminal pharmaceutical industry that has been charged with multiple felony crimes and caught bribing doctors, fraudulently altering scientific studies, conducting medical experiments on children and price fixing their drugs to maximize profits.

In effect, censorship of Natural News is part of the establishment’s war on humanity which includes depopulation measures (Bill Gates), covert infertility vaccines, corporate-run media disinfo campaigns and a full-on assault against scientific truth and free speech conducted in the public interest.

Won't someone think of the children? Not surprisingly, the almost as quacky Jon Rappoport is standing behind Mike Adams in his hour of need. Of course, Adams will look very silly if this was just a glitch and his site is relisted tomorrow. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but how Google operates is the very blackest of black boxes. Who knows what happened. I'm hoping the delisting sticks but fearing it won't.

In any case, Adams is either really delusional or thinks incredibly little of his readers if he can say with a straight face that Natural News is one of the worlds "top educational and activism sources." In reality, it is, as I said above, the wretchedest of wretched hives of scum and quackery, now seasoned with alt right, Trump-worshiping misogyny, racism, bigotry against transgendered people, and general right wing batshit nuttiness. Even more hilarious is his claim that "millions of people" might now be harmed by the evil toxins, vaccines, herbicides, and everything else Adams likes to rant about.

I have to wonder, naturally, whether Google's decision to delist NaturalNews.com is part of its attempt to clean up fake news. To be honest, as much as I despise Adams and his website, I'm not sure that NaturalNews.com qualifies as fake news. Adams rarely makes up stories out of whole cloth. Rather, like every good propagandist he takes existing news stories and information sources, cherry picks from them, and then weaves them together into a deceptive, biased tale designed to rile up his readers by confirming their conspiracy theories, all while misrepresenting science and evidence to fuel his quackery-supporting narratives. That's why I don't really consider NaturalNews.com to be a fake news site, but more like a whackaloon conspiracy theory and quackery website. I realize that that could be a distinction without a true difference.

On the other hand, it's a fine line between what Adams does and fake news; I'm not always sure where I'd draw it. Even so, there's no doubt that Adams' website had serious Google juice, given all the citations, incoming links, and, these days above all, the social media shares, all coupled with a lot of traffic and reach. And that was a problem. His "fake medicine" and conspiracy theory articles were very widely shared on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media, and Adams has been very SEO-, social media-, and web-savvy for a very long time. His ridiculous articles promoting ridiculous conspiracy theories (that is, when he wasn't gloating over the deaths of celebrities who used conventional medicine to treat their cancer), had a wide reach and were not infrequently shared by people on Facebook who really should know better. Since he went all in for Donald Trump, his reach has only grown, as he has become a rising star in the alt right.

Like the alt right, he's very good at playing the martyr, persecuted in this case for...well, just read:

It’s clear to me that Natural News is being targeted primarily because of our support for President Trump and his review of vaccine safety. It is now apparent that any person who engages in real science, critical thinking or any attempt to protect children from the brain damaging effects of mercury in vaccines is going to be silenced, discredited, smeared and blacklisted. This is an astonishing realization about the depths of total corruption in society today and how the medical cartels control information to maximize their profits off human suffering.

Or, it could just be that Adams tried something with his website that Google didn't like, like bogus links, cloaking, spoofing, or doorway pages. Or something else that Google doesn't like. There's no way of knowing. As I said before, Google's search algorithms are the blackest of black boxes.

I am, however, very much enjoying my schadenfreude, and will continue to do so as long as Adams' site is delisted and he continues his tirades against Google and his victimhood conspiracies. I just started listening to Adams' podcast about the whole thing:

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/309074912" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]

I'm sorry, I had to stop when Adams started to brag about how NaturalNews.com is true journalism that cites all its sources and does in-depth analysis. I couldn't stop laughing.

ADDENDUM: Adams' followup post, Beyond fake news… How Google just became FAKE SEARCH by blacklisting independent journalism, is even more hilariously epic in its overwrought language.

I can't help but post this clip to indulge my schadenfreude:

ADDENDUM #2: Apparently, now Adams is trying to sell his readers on the idea that Google's delisting of NaturalNews.com is a prelude to, well, just look at the title: RED ALERT: Fascist Google begins PURGE of pro-Trump websites as prelude to massive false flag or coup attempt. I wonder what Mikey will have to say when that purge and coup attempt never happen.

oracknows Wed, 02/22/2017 - 19:00

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Social Sciences

I wonder if Adams knows what he did and is shouting conspiracy in spite of knowing better, of he really doesn't know and sincerely believes he was targeted by "the man".

Oh how I laughed.

Adams has put up a new doorway to his site: Natural.News which Google is finding.

I have to wonder, naturally, whether Google’s decision to delist NaturalNews.com is part of its attempt to clean up fake news.

That was my first thought too.
As for Adams's whining:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48H34ukFe8g

Why does Adams care about the Gazoogle anyway? Wasn't everyone supposed to be using GoodGopher, his own proprietary front-end alternative, by now?

I wonder if Adams knows what he did and is shouting conspiracy in spite of knowing better, of he really doesn’t know and sincerely believes he was targeted by “the man”.

His entire career for the last two decades is built on scamming and grifting. It seems unlikely that he has been innocently exploiting a loophole in the Goofle ranking algorithms in order to raise his profile, and is now genuinely bewildered and aggrieved because the loophole closed. I suspect that Adams is now all butthurt and victimhood because that's what professional grifters do in these days of personal-responsibility-for-poor-people-only (viz Milo Y.).

"fraudulently altering scientific studies, conducting medical experiments on children"

He must be talking about (no longer a doctor) Andrew Wakefield.

I would call the delisting a case of too little too late, this should have been done well over a decade ago.

Late last week, I received a direct threat that warned if I did not take steps to destroy Alex Jones and InfoWars, I would be targeted for destruction in a campaign of smears, censorship and defamation.

I guess that subjects the whole "always packin' heat," ah, thing to quite an icy shower.

Wasn’t everyone supposed to be using GoodGopher, his own proprietary front-end alternative, by now?

It's too bad that he's not businessman enough to see this as an opportunity to sell crank- dynamo-powered appliances to keep his marks in contact. The bandwidth of packet radio or moonbounce might limit certain core functionality, of course.

when [Milo Yiannopoulos] spoke way too blithely about pedophilia, even appearing to defend it, that was too much

More advocating than 'defending'. I think he was really attacking the quaint outmoded concept of "consent', and trying to portray age of consent laws as just another example of liberal tyranny. Pandering to his audience.

Next on the (wish) list: Food Babe, Mercola, Age of Autism, TruthVac, Erin the Health Nut.

I'm positive I am forgetting quite a few.

Was it Gary Null who was calling for the Trump gubblement to take over the mainstream media and close them down, in the interests of Freeze Speech? Or some other wazzcock?

My FUCKSGIVEN ALERT status has been downgraded to zero.

Hi Orac, I updated the article today, and as of now, NaturalNews.com is definitely still missing from Google and completely de-indexed. Bing is showing 193,000 pages in their index.

Too bad for Bing...

Go away Travis.

The sensitivity on your Travis detector may turned up too high.

Yep. Not Travis.

It might also possible that Google delisted him due to malvertisement on his site, which has increased massively of late.
Malware being sent by an advertisement, advertised by one of the various ad sites used by many a webmaster and is currently being cracked down upon by Google and other search engine (and ad websites) owners.
Currently, a napkin estimate has been around one hundred fold increase in such malvertisements.
I'm both seeing this individually on various websites *and* in signature sets sent by NIPS/NIDS service providers over just this past month.
The crap has gone very seriously and badly off of the wire in that score. Added, ad sites that hijack the host page, shooting one straight to the targeted video ad, which is something witnessed just within the past 24 hours.

Regardless, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Oh, that was definitely my first suspicion. Adams could very well have been doing something Google doesn't like to game his SEO and Google finally noticed. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if that's what happened.

It's nice to see that Google and Yahoo in Canada have also dropped (UN)naturalNews.com. For amusements sake, I checked out eh original evil (Bing) and the site is the first hit. The same applies to duckduckgo.com. Would have been so much sweeter if the site had of been wiped from all the major search engines. Oh well. Let the lies and stupidity propagate.

Alas, hat strongly suggests malvertisement.

I like the idea that sentience exists in Google's server farms and this intelligent being has correctly surmised that Adams is the antithesis of sentience.

Also possible that they had a plan to give a more minor penalty to sites that continue to publish debunked info and it went a little haywire. That's what we need to push all on the quack sites down in the rankings for real medical and science search terms.

Sadly, instead of expressing solidarity, Adams' cohorts in med-woo seem to be ignoring his victimization by the Google Conspiracy. For instance, Mercola is going his merry way, while Dr. Oz is concentrating on "teatoxing".

"Naturopathic doctor Pina Logiudice explains how teatoxing at home can help you slim down and reduce bloat and water weight."

How can these guys ignore a threat the laps at the very foundation of our liberty and threatens impending global depopulation??!?!?!?

when [Milo Yiannopoulos] spoke way too blithely about pedophilia, even appearing to defend it, that was too much

One of the few bright lines in politics is that you don't want to be caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. In Milo's case, it was the latter.

He also fancies himself a rapper and musician, but the less said about his rapping and vocal stylings, the better.

So would I be better off listening to Florence Foster Jenkins? A compilation of her recordings was released with the subtitle Murder on the High C's.

Sadly, instead of expressing solidarity, Adams’ cohorts in med-woo seem to be ignoring his victimization by the Google Conspiracy.

There is no honor among thieves.

Are you really THAT noaive? Yes, it's the same thing. Glad Google is finally throwing out the trash. "I have to wonder, naturally, whether Google’s decision to delist NaturalNews.com is part of its attempt to clean up fake news. To be honest, as much as I despise Adams and his website, I’m not sure that NaturalNews.com qualifies as fake news. Adams rarely makes up stories out of whole cloth. Rather, like every good propagandist he takes existing news stories and information sources, cherry picks from them, and then weaves them together into a deceptive, biased tale designed to rile up his readers by confirming their conspiracy theories, all while misrepresenting science and evidence to fuel his quackery-supporting narratives. That’s why I don’t really consider NaturalNews.com to be a fake news site, but more like a whackaloon conspiracy theory and quackery website. I realize that that could be a distinction without a true difference."

Orac writes,

On the other hand, it’s a fine line between what Adams does and fake news; I’m not always sure where I’d draw it.

MJD say,

I have similar thoughts about Respectful Insolence (RI) and Orac's "antivaccine" standards.

In my opinion, if a person accepts at least one vaccine, or allows their child to receive at least one vaccine, they can not be labeled "anti-vaccine" or an "antivaxxer".

Thus, using this criteria it is my opinion that Orac often spreads "Fake News" when placing individuals like Andrew Wakefield, RFK, Jr., and Robert DeNiro on the RI "anti-vaccine" hit list.

As much as I detest Naturalnews.com and Mike Adams, I feel shocked, scared, and not one bit surprised. This is a warning to ALL OF US.

We have put our intellectual freedom in the hands of a private company that DOES NOT have our best interests at heart. Intellectual freedom, unlike free speech, is freedom of expression given by a private entity. Google can provide it or not, at its pleasure.

Intellectual freedom given or not given by Google matters because for many users it is THE ONLY search engine and many don't know how to use a locator bar or bookmarks. They have the Google pages as their home page, and the Google search box is their locator bar. Delisting from Google can mean your site disappears.

This means not only loyal fans and readers of Mike Adams' swill can't reach him unless they know the base URL and have ten nimble fingers, and are on a device with a reasonable keyboard, but also critics of quackery and students studying quackery (Adam's work is primary source for that subject) also have a tougher time accessing him.

Google should not decide who gets to easily access what, but they do. What worries me this morning is who is next.

What Mike Adams should be doing is teaching his users about other search engines. Yahoo (Formerly Altavista) and Bing, are mainstream search engines that may or may not follow Google's suit. Qrobe.it is a meta search engine with enhanced privacy, and my go-to engine. Then there is always the locator bar. Nearly all browsers have one, even mobile browsers. Nearly all browsers have bookmarks. Touch typing is a wonderful skill. Alas, he is wasting a good, teachable moment.

As for the rest of us, any of us can be next, since we have no idea how Google operates. Keep those ten wiggling fingers nimble even on a mobile keyboard.

@27/Eric Lund: Not quite; Milo was the "live boy", as you put it; what happened was he spoke positively of his own molestation at 17 by an older priest and was defending other gay males having such relationships. Still very gross (and honestly a little saddening), but he wasn't the adult in the personal situation he was defending.

Still - this does suggest potentially ominous implications.

Though Google does exist on the corporate plane, with no Official Governmental Authority (well, not counting certain functional overlaps with NSA), its role as gatekeeper does lend it a basic regulatory function.

While I know of nothing positive at all to say about Adams, this particular shutdown could, in other circumstances, be turned against others - even the Respectfully Insolent. Let's say a respectable site (e.g., mayoclinic.org) gets hit with a malware infestation &/or a big malpractice suit &/or a major PR goof - could they be erased from search results? Could the Trump/Sessions Justice Dept get a court order to delist an operation they consider Fake News®?

A few years ago, some spam-meisters apparently raided an address list from a relatively minor ISP (which I happen to use) and started a spate of obnoxious emails spoofing addresses from that domain. AT&T noticed - and for a while, none of my personal emails could get through to anyone using an AT&T account. That got cleared up, eventually, somehow (not having an AT&T account, I never could reach anybody within that customers-only! organization to register a complaint), but it did sensitize me to the power of arbitrary Internet blockage and its potential abuse.

Despite the fact that some people may find this as stifling "free speech," Google (like FaceBook) is well within its right as a corporation to list or not list whatever it wants.

That's just a fact of life on the modern day internet.

Home page comes up for me fine today. I suspect that Adams is getting jumpy because he knows that, if not now then soon, Google will manually tweak the algorithms in ways that will be very damaging to his profits.

Although clicks for most of his products will be very low value, a few cents mostly, he will watch the data very very closely. Occasionally there can be drop-outs for no explicable reason, but it's highly unlikely that the entire site would be "blacklisted".

The whole "alternative fact" thing that Trump has set off is bound to lead to a lot of money being spent on the credibility of search technologies, meaning that a site like Adams' will still be there, but his material being downranked to index pages that nobody ever reaches with standard keyword searches.

Can't wait.

I do quite love that Mikey goes straight to the conspiracy, there is nothing else that could possibly be happening. I suppose that does whip up his followers more than a post describing the more mundane reasons this type of thing happens.

But I also would not at all be surprised if it turns out he was playing some SEO games which Google's system did not like, and found himself penalized.

While I know of nothing positive at all to say about Adams, this particular shutdown could, in other circumstances, be turned against others – even the Respectfully Insolent. Let’s say a respectable site (e.g., mayoclinic.org) gets hit with a malware infestation &/or a big malpractice suit &/or a major PR goof – could they be erased from search results? Could the Trump/Sessions Justice Dept get a court order to delist an operation they consider Fake News®?

These are good questions. We know (and Orac has posted on this subject in the past) that anti-vaxers have gamed the Facebook abuse reporting system to silence their critics. Somebody could figure out how to game Google's system to get sites they don't like delisted. Google's algorithms have been gamed in the past (most famously, the group of left-wing bloggers who successfully conspired to make then-President George W. Bush's official White House bio the top result of a search for "miserable failure"). We know that Google will tweak their algorithm once they figure out how people are gaming it, but it will take time to identify and fix such problems.

I would not worry about the government here. The First Amendment rules against prior restraint do reply to them, and more importantly, there are precedents for allowing fake news as free speech (specifically, Fox News).

Considering he promotes his own search engine which conveniently strips out science or evidence based sites, I really have zero sympathy.

I have no idea why his site got delisted but I suspect it was less to do with fake news and more to do with whatever shady advertising, SEO tactics or other sleaze he was pulling off to elevate his site in the google rankings.

It looks like it was only temporary (darn it).

I seem to be able to google NN just fine.

It is shocking to see how many Americans (I presume most of you must be) have such a low information quotient. Amerika has become an echo chamber of sheep, bleating for more toxic food, more toxic pharma, more enslavement. You people really need to expand your reading lists and get with the human program.

@Johnny - NaturalNews.com still not showing up in Google results. Although Natural.News is still there.

I'm still just seeing the shadow NN site listed on Google.

I expect the original site and all its glorious articles to be listed again before long, as whatever was pissing off the Lords of Google will be resolved and they will have deemed Adams to have learned his lesson (the NN take will be that Google privileges were restored due to protestations of the outraged citizenry, but Evil remains a dire threat (and buy my supplements)).

More advocating than ‘defending’. I think he was really attacking the quaint outmoded concept of “consent’, and trying to portray age of consent laws as just another example of liberal tyranny. Pandering to his audience.

Not to defend Milo in any way, but I personally don't think it's necessarily impossible for there to be a consensual relationship between a teenager and an older man. One of my best friends had his first serious relationship when he was 16 with a guy in his late 20s, and it was totally mutual and consensual.

This article has a good take on it.

The shut-down of NN'S indexing, if intentional, is censorship. The "fake news" meme was spun by moneyed corporate interests to justify exactly that - censorship.
It span out of control when the alternative media turned it around and used the term against the "real media"'. Now Trump is using it against them, and rightly so in many cases. Now things are going into a higher gear. Corporate interests are pulling out the stops.
Google, Facebook, Twitter, ad companies can shut down Natural News, Infowars, Breitbart etc because they control the network element of the internet.
And yes, of course it's a conspiracy.
How would they shut down Trump? Political ouster conspiracy?
Bullet?
Interesting times. Let's hope reason and logic prevail, not emotion.

I seem to be able to google NN just fine.

No, it is delisted. Search Google for "site:naturalnews.com." You will get zero returns. The entire site is delisted. You might get Natural.news, which is a shadow site, but the main site is down.

wtf is wrong with this site. Science? Really? Or are you just media shills. Rather than giving a flying fuck about freedom of speech and the press, you have bowed down to slave masters and are now part of the garbage infesting the planet. Did you get a promise of "peerage" or simply to be left alone and ALLOWED to continue your pablum postings? Hmmm?

Home page comes up for me fine today. I suspect that Adams is getting jumpy because he knows that, if not now then soon, Google will manually tweak the algorithms in ways that will be very damaging to his profits.

Well, yes. The website is still up. The NaturalNews.com domain is just delisted in Google. No Google search results will return any links within that domain.

Oh, goody. Methinks some Alex Jones/Mike Adams/Donald Trump fans have discovered the joy of Insolence. :-)

and now it is gone for me too.

Dafuk did I see - maybe something cached?

"warned...I would be targeted...

"...blacklisted by Google, entirely without warning."

So, which is it, you whackjob? Were you or were you not warned?

I just did the experiment myself. Safari v. 10.0.3 under MacOS 10.10.5 (Yosemite), in case anyone reading cares about such details.

The autosuggestion feature in Safari (which is independent of Google) suggested Mike's real site. But it's not there in the Google search results, at least not on the first page. Result #1 is the mirror site Mike set up. This blog post is #4.

This blog post is #4.

On further consideration: This probably accounts for the influx of nyms we haven't seen before. Quite possibly, Mike and friends are encouraging his peeps to do exactly that Google search and give people like Orac a piece of their minds. Or perhaps they are coming up with that idea independently.

"Or perhaps they are coming up with that idea independently."

I doubt that these true believers are capable of coming up with independent ideas.

I for one am very happy to see Natural News delisted.

I get tired of explaining to my students why it is not a suitable site to source for their papers.

Honestly, I'd rather let them use Wikipedia.

Yes, yes, by all means. If we disagree with them or any of their beliefs we must silence them. And we can. And we should. We are liberals.

Also possible that they had a plan to give a more minor penalty to sites that continue to publish debunked info and it went a little haywire.

I somehow doubt that GreenMedInfo would be doing just fine if this were the case.

wtf is wrong with this site. Science? Really? Or are you just media shills.

That's pharma shills to you, babycakes.

NN is all listed using millionshort; I *thought* it did a live polling of Google but I guess it could be cached links.

https://millionshort.com/search?keywords=naturalnews.com&shopping=&coun…

Let’s say a respectable site (e.g., mayoclinic.org) gets hit with a malware infestation &/or a big malpractice suit &/or a major PR goof – could they be erased from search results?

I think that might not be a terrible thing. If mayoclinic.org got hit with a serious malware infestation, temporarily delisting it could be a good way of limiting the damage. Just because we might consider the Mayo Clinic one of the "the good guys" most of the time does not mean it shouldn't be quarantined if it becomes a risk. That'd obviously a be a seriously big deal, but it's something to think about. We all know large, legitimate organizations are not invulnerable to hackers.

That’s just a fact of life on the modern day internet.

"Their machines, their rules" is the same as it ever was. Nobody was obligated to take the packets of all comers back in the Good Old Days.

Taken to another extreme, it's as if Mikey has all along been playing by the rules of Russian cyberpropaganda: "it is often not even seeking to be believed. Instead, it has as one aim undermining the notion of objective truth and reporting being possible at all".

I'm no fan of Natural News and have mocked it myself. That said, this is a chilling development.

The battle of ideas must be won through REASON and CRITICAL THINKING. Not censorship.

Anyone who applauds this move by Google is an enemy of Democracy. I really find it hard to believe a "Science Blog" would be cheering this on. Scary.

I think that might not be a terrible thing. If mayoclinic.org got hit with a serious malware infestation, temporarily delisting it could be a good way of limiting the damage.

G—le has already sort of done that, with the "this site may harm your computer" warning, which I imagine tends to put a good number of people off proceeding (and has generated whining in and of itself).

The usual bots hard at play. If Adams' site didn't pose a serious threat to the NWO agenda, there'd be no reason to delist it now, would there?

Well, for years he's been saying how g--gle et al are *hopelessly* biased towards the lamestream (tm) so perhaps he'll find a way to direct his thralls towards his own alternative.

Seriously.

Over the past 2 years, he's been shilling his own news sites and fetch engine.

Although I can barely keep count, hasn't he attempted to launch various enterprises, sites, businesses, cons etc over the years? IIRC, he tried real estate in Ecuador, franchises for food products like NZ green lipped mussels or suchlike, survivalist gear, a social media site, 3D printing, home farms ... on and on.

He;s not a man, he's a money generating engine.

@ herr doktor bimler:

I beleive that that wazzcock was Mikey himself.

Google is a corporation, it can make whatever decisions it wants to preserve it's value. That is capitalism isn't it?

Suddenly you want the government or someone to step in? Hypocrite

Milo losing book deal, pure business. Suck it up. Pun unintentional.

This is private enterprise doing what it does best. What you all keep begging to happen. Unfettered capitalism but now is working against you. Snowflake.

In similar fashion, the Nullmacher has INSISTED that' he's a victim of cyberwar and CIA intervention because of the *dangerous* material he discusses and posts on his prn site.
He is a threat to the government and mainstream.
He's always being hacked like Sharyl Atkisson.

I suppose that it may be a measure of a brave rebel's value to the resistance:
if the powers-that-be fear him and take action against him, he must f@cking rule.

One of the reasons I survey these fellows ( and gals) beyond informing others of their nonsense is because their hijinks and inept posturibgs anbd raaaamblings amuse me endlessly.

It;s a hard life, we need entertainment,

that is, posturings and ramblings

survivalist gear,

Oh, he's still selling survivalist gear, the last I checked anyway, which was yesterday. It's specifically stores of food for survivalists, though, all APPROVED by the HEALTH RANGER!

New on NN...

It seems that g--gle's action is part of a PURGE against pro-Trump sites leading to a false flag whatnot... er.. coup d'etat

Blame it on the Times I suppose.

BTW, all of Mikey's newest articles are unhinged rants in the same vein as his original response to the delisting. He's now predicting a PURGE of all PRO-TRUMP SITES! (If only...)

I see that Denice and I were typing at the same time.

I have it on good authority that Natural News was penalized by Google for a "sneaky mobile redirect" that broke their terms and conditions. This happens to a lot of sites. All Mike Adams has to do is fix it and file a reconsideration request to Google and it is all fixed. I will come back and post a link to a story on this when its posted.

It will be interesting to see if he does that, as it will not play into his conspiracy narrative.

@ JP:

I know about him since 2007-8.
He never stops in his attempts to make money.

The other idiot has a plethora of business ops most of which fail and are never mentioned again. A food co-op, a school for health coachery, MLMs to sell his products,
Endless crap.

If and when our Google Masters explain that they are targeting Fake News sites and delisting those that do not contribute to educated discourse, THEN we can wave our civil liberty banners and raise hell.

To do so now would look silly if it turned out that the NN delisting was for some form of SEO misbehavior.

"Anyone who applauds this move by Google is an enemy of Democracy. I really find it hard to believe a “Science Blog” would be cheering this on."

Enjoying a good laugh at the expense of Mike Adams and his bizarrely over-the-top conspiracy theorizing is hardly a threat to our democratic way of life.

"Did you get a promise of “peerage” or simply to be left alone and ALLOWED to continue your pablum postings?"

We don't need no steenking titles, as long as those shill buck$ keep arriving on schedule every month.

re 'playing the martyr'

Someone ( not me) who is good at photoshopping needs to put Mikey's face on a Renaissance image of the martyr, St Sebastian ( although I venture that the saint was in much better shape and looked better partially nude).

I’m no fan of Natural News and have mocked it myself. That said, this is a chilling development.
@Tom Siebert
"Anyone who applauds this move by Google is an enemy of Democracy...."

Nope; this was simple manipulative violation of Google's terms and conditions by Natural News. Lots of sites have been removed from Google for the same thing.

Mike Adams was being very disingenuous with the facts over this.

Apparently, this is what he violated:
https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/2721217

Move is about to come to about this (not from me), but as I said above, I will come back and post a link to the story when its published.

I’m no fan of Natural News and have mocked it myself. That said, this is a chilling development.

I am impressed how many visitors are no fans of Mikey and come here to argue that Goofle have some kind of obligation to expose their customers to whatever malware he chooses to post.

Sorry, I died not check post before posting - that "I’m no fan of Natural News and have mocked it myself. That said, this is a chilling development." was not from me, it was copied from @Tom Siebert above.

Google have been removing sites from their search engine for years. They do it to any site that breaks their Webmaster Guidelines. That is all this is about, Natural News broke those Guidelines.

I listened to Mikey's podcast so you don't have to!

Really, there is nothing there that is at all surprising. Google is the "Ministry of Peace," this is Communist China style censorship, etc.

He says that perhaps NaturalNews will become even more popular if people hear that it's "censored" (censorship, I do not think that word means what you think it means), and will wonder: Oooooh, what kind of dangerous (ooo-wee-ooo, also, hints of Milo) information is this that Google doesn't want me to see? Wow, better tell my friends about it too!

But there's probably no need to waste your time, it's not all that interesting.

It seems that g–gle’s action is part of a PURGE against pro-Trump sites leading to a false flag whatnot… er.. coup d’etat

Obligatory 1066 illustration is obligatory.

All Mike Adams has to do is fix it and file a reconsideration request to Google and it is all fixed

But Mikey's business model depends on using the sneaky redirects to bring traffic to his products, relying on the rigged Goofle hits to advertise them as something else. Can he afford to fix his redirection scam?

needs to put Mikey’s face on a Renaissance image of the martyr, St Sebastian
Indeed.

Not only was St Sebastian middle-aged and butch, he wasn't killed with arrows. Punctured, yes, but not killed. The perforated martyr was rescued from the stake and nursed back to health by St Irene of Rome – a woman, boys – before unwisely haranguing Diocletian for his paganism as he passed by on a litter. Unmoved by his tenacity, the emperor had Sebastian clubbed to death; his body was then dumped in Rome's sewers. Had history been less kind, he might have ended up as patron saint of poo.

Guido Reni painted 7 or 8 versions of Sebastian, and there are many times that number of cheap copies of Reni's versions, by later painters.. One of these days I plan to string them together into a jerky animated movie.

On the other hand, it’s a fine line between what Adams does and fake news; I’m not always sure where I’d draw it.

Sad fact about freedom of speech is that lying is literally a protected right. Technically, fake news is protected the same way fiction is protected --there is no constitutional allowance stipulating that posted news reports must be true. Where would the National Enquirer be if there were laws about this?

I think we're seeing some watershed events taking place these days revolving around what freedom of speech actually involves with regard to the penetration of information technology into our culture. For the United States, specifically, our democratic republic style of government depends on the fidelity of common voters being able to make a certain statistical frequency of good choices about things they don't necessarily understand. If people in their schooling more frequently fail to gain a capacity to filter information sources for good sources and also more frequently overestimate their own capacity to make good judgements about topics on which they are not expert, we're liable to see increasing problems down the line in the fundamental veracity of self-governance --if we're not seeing such problems already, which I would contend we are! Some censorship, by companies like Google or by government, where the decision is kept out of the hands of uninformed laymen, may become fundamentally necessary just to insure social order.

I think for freedom to continue to exist.... any freedom... you have to have respect for and understanding of the fundamental responsibilities for maintaining a functioning collective society despite what degrees of personal diversity any particular freedom allows. I think new laws always get written when people don't understand this. And especially since these responsibilities are actually always changing as we learn more about the world around us and as our civilization gets more populous and has no choice to alter how we interact with the world around us. Technically, science is the buffer by which any quality judgments happen and if science is politicized or lines of information become corrupt, it pretty much assures that nobody can make right choices about what a democratic government should do.

Amerika has become an echo chamber of sheep,

I think Pink Floyd used one of those when they were recording the Animals album.

Here is the story from Search Engine Land:
http://searchengineland.com/natural-news-not-banned-google-fake-news-26…

Did you get a promise of “peerage”

That intrigued me. Does Namma believe that the NWO and / or the Illuminati intend to reinstitute a system of aristocratic titles? Is this part of the wider alt-facts belief system?

TRUFAX: The Frau Doktorin's mother used to call me 'Prince' in her final, rather confused years. I never figured out whether she believed me to be a minor member of the Danish royal family, or just an Alsatian dog.

Why can't people be allowed to make up their own mind? I dont think censorship of differing opinions is helpful. Idk what this guy is selling or pushing but as long as it's not illegal let it go. Jeez. What I hate is people trying to tell me what I can and can't do.

@cheryl herritt - they were breaking Google's Webmaster guidelines. They were doing things that were artificially increasing their rankings by some manipulative technique. Google does not like it when sites try to manipulate their rankings. It was not about fake news or censorship.

The stench of the sheep manure is so strong here! I like Mike Adams and Natural News. Its the horrendous storm of snowflakes, helped and supported by the MLM. The MLM has more interest in seeing where emotionally and confused transgenders take a SH*# THEY ARE THE PUBLISHERS OF FAKE NEWS TO POLITICALLY sway the opinion of people who have no critical thinking abilities. BAHA Bahaaa that's why they are sheep. Now go to your safe zones and grab a little pony and cry. Because TRUMP IS PRESIDENT. FAIR AND SQUARE, get over it! Support free speech! Not China intranet policies

I do believe a link to this post must have been posted to a Facebook page or other social media site where there are a lot of Mike Adams and/or Donald Trump fans. Will TS try to sneak in here hidden among the newbies? Be vigilant, my friends. Be vigilant.

SUPPORT NATURAL NEWS and Mike Adams NOT CHINA INTRANET POLICIES that are seeping in the USA

@Teddy - you do realize that Google has no obligation to list any website on their search engine, right?

Corporations have no duty to provide a platform for "free speech."

Them's the breaks of modern capitalism & our Constitution.

Be vigilant, my friends, be vigilant. He is wrong!

Be vigilant, my friends, be vigilant. He is wrong! Be respectful and thoughtful to the cause of communism.

Somehow Teddy forget to mention the chemtrails. I am disappoint.

Too much name calling here ... too much stupidity here as well. You're so afraid of him that you have to resort to childishness, just like all the snowflakes that do nothing but hate this, that or the other thing. YOU are the ridiculous ones, not Mike Adams. He might not be ALL he purports himself to be, but he's an honest man that stands miles above the likes of you. There's too much hate abounding these days, and Mike isn't the one perpetuating it. He'd be very happy if all of you twinkies would just shut up and get on with your lives. But, oh yeah, you can't do that because YOU DON'T HAVE A LIFE!! Nor do you want one ... too much responsibility ... way to hard without mommy and daddy.

Mike Adams? An honest man?

Ha.

Hahahaha.

Hahahahahahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Best laugh I've had in ages.

Where the elite and corporations guide your very thoughts to their cause. Hush Hush little sheeple. I will take care of you as I have done in the past. good day

Obviously such an intelligent crew over at NN.....

Be respectful and thoughtful to the cause of communism.

OK.

for those who think that Google is a private corporation, you're wrong, its a publically traded company, and it is more than 51% owned by Government hedge funds, so yes, this is technically censorship.

Science blog can spout that vaccines are perfectly safe and don't cause autism, and call naturalnews a quack website, but its just an opinion. There is plenty of scientific evidence now, thanks to CDC research scientist whistleblowers who released the buried research from the 90's that the MMR vaccine can in fact cause autism in a certain segment of the population. this isn't a conspiracy, its fact. and the fact that the CDC itself owns 75% of all vaccine patents, means they have a biased agenda, and actual motive to suppress this data.

go ahead, take the time to educate yourself, watch the documentary VAXXED, it will open your eyes.

Mike Adams, good greif where did he take writing lessons? The quotes bits of his post remind me strongly of the style of Edgar Rice Burroughs (of John Carter of Mars/Barsoom and Tarzan fame), which is to say overwrought in the extreme. Which is fine when you're writing a serial about fantasy Mars, but maybe a bit much for a blog post about how Google is after you.

And I want to point out this quote specifically "anti-establishment (and pro-Trump) ". Uh, dude, Mike, in case you haven't noticed Trump *won*. He is, by definition, the establishment, no matter how anyone feels about it.

I by no means support the foolishness he spouts, but, am i the only one bothered that google took it upon themselves to decide what we could search for.

de-listing a registered domain is not what a search engine should be doing.

@Shawn
"de-listing a registered domain is not what a search engine should be doing.'

Google do this 100's of times a day.
They only do it to those sites that use manipulative techniques to artificially increase their rankings in the search results. That affects the quality of Google's search results; so they take action.

"Its the horrendous storm of snowflakes, helped and supported by the MLM."

Actually, it's much more likely that multi-level marketers would rally to Adams' support.

Lawrence @ # 95: ... Google has no obligation to list any website on their search engine...

Dunno if this has been tested legally (and, IANAL), but if you operate a service that claims to search the entire Web - and it doesn't - does that open up a potential liability for fraud or misleading advertisement?

@Pierce R. Butler

It has been tested legally. Google won easily

Katie @ 99: You said "He might not be ALL he purports himself to be, but he’s an honest man". Do you see the inherit contradiction in that statement right there?

Being honest means not claiming to be things you are not. Therefore if Mike Adams is not "ALL he purports himself to be" then he is *not* being honest.

I'd take a look at Google's Terms and Conditions - including those for webmasters.

They are fully within their right to delist any website that violates those T&Cs.

Nothing screams "honest man" like using manipulative web development practices. If it was sneaky redirects, or other techniques like cloaking or link schemes to increase pagerank, then sorry, it is hard to feel bad about Google delisting the site. I do hope more details emerge at some point.

NN minions! Save yourselves while there is still time! While your overlord is lost in cyberspace break free of his bonds! You have nothing to lose but your chains!!

# 83 viggen
Sad fact about freedom of speech is that lying is literally a protected right. Technically, fake news is protected the same way fiction is protected

Only in the USA I suspect.
http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/a-law-against-lying-on-the-news

We also have hate speech laws. I believe Ann Coulter (sp?) cancelled a speech at the University of Ottawa when someone pointed this out to her.

Mike Adams? An honest man?

Only in the sense that Shakespeare's Mark Antony calls Brutus "an honourable man".

I don't have time at the moment to work up a full parody of the "Friends, Romans, countrymen" speech, but here's a quick attempt at two (almost but not exactly repeated verbatim several times) lines:

Yet Adams is selling supplements;
And Adams is an honourable man,

Did you get a promise of “peerage”

No. Pierage. We need places where we can tie up the yachts that we buy with our pharmashill earnings.

The stench of the sheep manure is so strong here!

The please remove your boots and change your underwear before you come in.

if you operate a service that claims to search the entire Web
No-one makes that claim.

Why can’t people be allowed to make up their own mind? I dont think censorship of differing opinions

I take it that none of Mikey's defenders are using his GoodGopher "search engine" / indexing service, which explicitly promises to filter out dissonant facts and leave its users in a safe unchallenged bubble.

I wonder again, why is Mikey so upset when his own search service is so much better and more popular than the evil Gazoogle?

@Hattie
"Is there anything I can do to ensure that this website gets delisted?"

No. ScienceBlogs has done nothing that breaks googles terms and conditions. Natural News has, Its that simple.

I would personally prefer an echo chamber of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a Pict.
In fact that will be the name of my new search-engine company.

Hattie @120: You said " Big Food (and cultural eating habits) " which makes me think you haven't actually read very many posts on RI or ScienceBlogs in general because in general nutrition isn't a topic here much. We might have a comments seciton devolve to a conversation about food, but that's very different from talking about nutrition.

Also, you might want to try checking out the non-biology ScienceBlogs. There's archaeology and astronomy and astrophysics, which is having a really big day with the discovery of the TRAPPIST-1 system.

I am wondering if Hattie might be making a bit of a joke and mimicking the form of the average Natural News support who drops by here. I mean, they got the joke about echo chambers, and that implies a sense of humour I rarely see by Mikey's pals.

The most surprising thing about this blog is that the comments do not appear to be being censored. Good to see. But then I guess this is a blog, not a "news organisation" website.
We in the mainstream media in Noo Zillund censor reader comments all the time. It's actually pretty funny listening to the newsroom comments moderators whispering conspiratorially about reader comments they are not letting slip through the net. Sometimes they do so by mistake with something a little too incisive, and there is hell to pay. We're pretty precious with their narratives. They're investments, you see.
I've also worked alongside intelligence officers in newsrooms (Operation Mockingbird, Noo Zillund style), so there's that.
Critical thinking and research are key to forming an informed opinion on anything. In order to get to that place you need the mainstream narratives and the dissenting ones. The truth, so far as you can get to it, lies in the middle somewhere. Censorship is not your friend in getting to that place of truth.
Finally folks have pointed out about that Google is a private corporation (and by extension has no duty to protect the US first amendment). That would only change probably if Google was shown to have partner or investment involvement with US state intelligence agencies where public funds have been expended and aided the business.
Mmm, could be a story there...

Whatinhell is Noo Zillund? Is that how the spelling of New Zealand is taught in St Petersburg schools?

@125

The one word reply of

Sheeples

in lieu of an actual argument is too perfect.

Who knew distinguishing reality and parody would become so difficult.

Katie, Teddy, Hattie are you all the same person? Your writing seems very similar.

I don't think you understand what a sheeple really is. The regulars at this blog have a vary diverse opinion on most subjects.

A sheeple is someone who follows another (a demigod to them?) without questions. Sheeple follow people like lush rumpy, the health stranger etc, etc without questions.

Receiving your information from on high only is never a good way to find your way through life.

Mike Adams may not be perfect and some of his writers may be a bit flaky, but there is some truth to what they write.

Can you provide examples of worthwhile content at NaturalNews? I am genuinely curious. Also I am very keen on avoiding work at the moment.

These people aren’t skeptics, the are pseudoskeptics guilty of logical fallacies.

I am guessing that you are getting your information on Scienceblogs, our host, and the skeptic movement writ large from sources like Mike Adams. These sources leave something to be desired.

Incidentally, I am not the world's biggest fan of Monsanto, but that is because I'm an anti-capitalist in general. I don't think they're any better or worse than any other corporation; corporations are generally amoral and profit-driven, that's how they work.

With regards to 'sneaky redirects'...

Wasn't it Natural News that was redirecting any link that came in from here back to a generic landing page? I have memories of people in here commenting that if they clicked on links from RI they got redirected; but if they copied the link and put it in manually, then they got to the actual page that was being quoted.

So the idea that he might be using deliberately deceptive redirects is not at all surprising, and as the Google page linked above notes, the reason Google clamps down on this is to make sure that the quoted page summary actually matches the page people will see when they click.

(While I'm not entirely happy with just how black Google's black box is, I can fully understand why. Any set of rules they can enumerate would be gamed by people trying to cheat the system. Natural News with all its various sites linking to each other is already an attempt at making itself look better to the original Google 'pagerank' algorithm which prioritized sites that were cited with outside links.)

He was and still is redirecting links from RationalWiki to a specific landing page
I do not know about other sites.
That is a deceptive practice; ie you click on a link expecting one thing and get another -- that is not a positive user experience.
That is not necessarily a Google issue, but if they did that, then they are certainly capable of doing things that did break the terms and conditions that google have

What kind of wool do you think you get off a sheeple? Would it be electric blue, like in John Scalzi's The Android's Dream?
Or would it be more like that creepy Victorian memorial hair jewelry?

Wasn’t it Natural News that was redirecting any link that came in from here back to a generic landing page? I have memories of people in here commenting that if they clicked on links from RI they got redirected; but if they copied the link and put it in manually, then they got to the actual page that was being quoted

Indeed he was, bu Google doesn't care about this. What he was also doing was the same thing from Google searches. So instead of getting the page you clicked on, you would be redirected to another page on his website.

Wasn’t it Natural News that was redirecting any link that came in from here back to a generic landing page?

Yep. You still get redirected to a page about "Mike Adams' 10 greatest achievements" or something.

The most surprising thing about this blog is that the comments do not appear to be being censored. Good to see. But then I guess this is a blog, not a "news organisation" website.
We in the mainstream media in Noo Zillund censor reader comments all the time. It's actually pretty funny listening to the newsroom comments moderators whispering conspiratorially about reader comments they are not letting slip through the net. Sometimes they do so by mistake with something a little too incisive, and there is hell to pay. We're pretty precious with our narratives. They're investments, you see.
I've also worked alongside intelligence officers in newsrooms (Operation Mockingbird, Noo Zillund style), so there's that.
Critical thinking and research are key to forming an informed opinion on anything. In order to get to that place you need the mainstream narratives and the dissenting ones. The truth, so far as you can get to it, lies in the middle somewhere. Censorship is not your friend in getting to that place of truth.
Finally folks have pointed out about that Google is a private corporation (and by extension has no duty to protect the US first amendment). That would only change probably if Google was shown to have partner or investment involvement with US state intelligence agencies where public funds have been expended and aided the business.
Mmm, could be a story there...

Reminds me of the webmaster of a french CT site, Wikistrike.
A while back he received on his gmail adress one of these classic con mail impersonating Google to try to persuade him to give his password.
He then went "OMG, Google is threatening me, this is proof we're important ! (Look, some of the words like "Targeted" have a capital, this is a hidden threat !)"
http://you.leparisien.fr/medias/2011/04/16/google-menace-sur-le-site-d-…

The stench of the sheep manure is so strong here!

As a farm boy, I feel compelled to defend the odour of sheep droppings. It's really quite innocuous. The smell of nature.
You want really bad stench, visit a pig farm some time.

The regulars at this blog have a vary diverse opinion on most subjects.

For instance, dill is a wonderful addition to all manner of dishes.

Guy @135: You said "The truth, so far as you can get to it, lies in the middle somewhere." That might be true of people and opinions and politics, but the earth is generally spherical, regardless of what the Flat Earth Society says, so the "truth" is not that the Earth is a frisbee.

Objective facts being objective and all.

Be careful what you write JustaTech, inattentive readers might think I'm a flat earther and discount my analysis with a broad brush (I'm not a flat earther lol :-))
The middle I'm referring to is your consciousness (or mine, or anyone's) with critical thinking engaged. You weigh up the facts and narratives on an issue as you know them and reach a conclusion.
This is an important skill to have and to exercise. If censorship goes ahead in the US and the rest of the world, your ability to reach a valid conclusion on anything will be negated.
Take China, which has active internet censorship. The Chinese who visit Noo Zillund generally have no idea what Falun Gong is (it's basically yoga, if you don't know either) nor that that its practitioners in China are systematically imprisoned and reportedly executed with their organs sold for transplants. I don't know what the truth is in this matter myself, but I'm sure I'm a lot closer to getting to it than the average Chinese.

The following illustrates that fake news has infiltrated the highest levels of scientifically respectable journalism. We need dissident voices. Now is not the time for any kind of censorship whatsoever:
“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.”
— Dr. Marcia Angell, 2009 http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2009/jan/15/drug-companies-doc…

“The case against science is straightforward: Much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, â€œpoor methods get resultsâ€. The Academy of Medical Sciences, Medical Research Council, and Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council have now put their reputational weight behind an investigation into these questionable research practices. The apparent endemicity [i.e. pervasiveness within the scientific culture] of bad research behaviour is alarming. In their quest for telling a compelling story, scientists too often sculpt data to fit their preferred theory of the world. Or they retrofit hypotheses to fit their data. Journal editors deserve their fair share of criticism too. We aid and abet the worst behaviours. Our acquiescence to the impact factor fuels an unhealthy competition to win a place in a select few journals. Our love of â€œsignificanceâ€ pollutes the literature with many a statistical fairy-tale. We reject important confirmations. Journals are not the only miscreants. Universities are in a perpetual struggle for money and talent, endpoints that foster reductive metrics, such as high-impact publication. National assessment procedures, such as the Research Excellence Framework, incentivise bad practices. And individual scientists, including their most senior leaders, do little to alter a research culture that occasionally veers close to misconduct.”
— Richard Horton, editor in chief of Lancet http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736%2815%296069…

Chris Preston@133:

Indeed he was, bu Google doesn’t care about this.

Never figured that they would. My point was more that if he was known to be actively doing this sort of thing for at least one site, it demonstrated both the capability and willingness to do it elsewhere.

# 136 JP

Could you supply some suggestions? I have been experimenting with a lot of Chinese and Indian dishes and I am not all that sure about dill.

On the other hand, I have heard that it is great in potato salad.

Could you supply some suggestions? I have been experimenting with a lot of Chinese and Indian dishes and I am not all that sure about dill.

It is a favorite herb in Russian, Polish, and Ukrainian kitchens and goes in just about anything/everything. Soups (especially cold soups like chlodnik, yum), salads (cucumber salad, potato salad, "vinegret," "olivye," etc.). And on and on. It is also very nice with pickles and as an ingredient in lox, but don't tell Narad. :-)

For instance, dill is a wonderful addition to all manner of dishes.

Do not mentin cilantro, for that leads to immediate censo

We in the mainstream media in Noo Zillund censor reader comments all the time.
I’ve also worked alongside intelligence officers in newsrooms

Objection! Some sockpuppet is trying to make Mikey fanbois and NZers seem stupider than they are.
FALSE FLAG OPERATION.

@143 - I used to live with a Polish woman ... dill really does go in/with anything.

Last autumn my girlfriend came from Japan to visit me in the UK. I was surprised to learn that she had never seen/heard of dill (should not have been really, I've never seen it in Japan). She quite liked the flavour and aroma, but I fear it will be a mostly dill free life for us. We will live somehow ... I guess :(

Who knew distinguishing reality and parody would become so difficult.

Poe's Law

I think it's wrong for Google to "de-list" anything. they should make it a user option to not see things Google finds objectionable.

Bob; they only delist those sites who do deliberate things to try and artificially manipulate the search results to get a better ranking for their site than they should have naturally. This is all that has happened to Mike Adams. Google does it to 100's of sites daily and has been doing it for years. They do it to protect the integrity of their search results from the spammers.

Mike Adams can fix this very quickly if he wants to. However, claiming conspiracies etc fits into his narrative.There is no conspiracy.

I'm kind of old fashioned about this. I think nuts should be allowed to say whatever they want unencumbered. Daylight is the antiseptic.

The real problem is the slippery slope. Which fascist wannabes and speeh police types are too happy to sleigh ride down.

I think it’s wrong for Google to “de-list” anything

And the servings are so small!

Just did a search for 'Natural News' and first up in the search was a "naturalDOTnewS", so Adams is finding a way around the delisting it seems.

Top stories were all about the delisting and the 'activists' seem to be circling the wagons...

http://www.activistpost.com/2017/02/infowars-natural-news-attack.html

@127
Who knew distinguishing reality and parody would become so difficult.

Nathan Poe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Why? because pickles are phallic and he’ll get turned on?

I smell a sock.

Hattie seems to bear the stink of troll Fucklesworth = Travis J. Schwochert

Yep. I sort of had my suspicion with the first comment, but for some reason I let it slide. I should listen to that little warning bell that goes off in my head when I see a comment like that. It's also virtually assured that at least one of our other newbies is also a Travis sock. Stay frosty.

We'll also soon see if my suspicions about a couple of other newbies are correct. :-)

All those comments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

Looks like Mikey’s still delisted as of this writing. Google still returns his FB page as the top hit when searching for naturalnews.com.

I haven't been commenting here much lately, and not read a ton of comments, so I have not seen this Travis sock. I hope, in the very least, they were not using my gravatar, and just happened to use the same name.

The troll's socks go by many names, starting with Fendelsworth, but his real name is Travis Schwochert.

She quite liked the flavour and aroma, but I fear it will be a mostly dill free life for us. We will live somehow … I guess ?

Tonight we're having roasted Fibonacci sequence and leftover meatloaf. The only dill is in the homemade buttermilk ranch for the salad, but if Narad were here, he could have jarred bleu cheese dressing or raspberry vinaigrette instead.

I ordered seeds for that plant. Alas, none sprouted, but that *was* around the time postal mail was being irradiated after the anthrax scare.*

*We had also shipped by mail some nice comforters, which arrived slightly burned and brittle from the beta radiation.

if Narad were here, he could have jarred bleu cheese dressing or raspberry vinaigrette instead.

Je vinaigrette rien.

Ahh, thanks Orac. Okay, I have seen Fendelsworth mentioned quite a bit but did not know his actual name so I did not make the connection here.

SUPPORT NATURAL NEWS and Mike Adams NOT CHINA INTRANET POLICIES that are seeping in the USA

I'm reminded of when the AoA commentariat was freaking out about "Net neutrality," because, see, it was the government, and Big pHARMa obviously is the FCC's puppet master. Otherwise, they would have banned DTC advertising in tthe name of Freedom.

I'm too tired to be jarring salad dressing. Christ, I'm lucky if there's a full serving left if I fail to cook two gallons' worth.

The troll’s socks go by many names, starting with Fendelsworth

Did "Lord Windermere" actually come second? (He used the 'y' spelling elsewhere, with an accompanying Gravatar, which had been changed to a poodle last I checked.)

I doubt that these true believers are capable of coming up with independent ideas.

I can only imagine the hysterical shrieking if this recent lot figured out that whole DNS thing. Oh, and is it "censorship" that Typepad* blocks Tor exit nodes, among other addresses, from so much as reading sites?

* E.g., AoA.

Update: Mikey has now launched a petition to the White House whining about teh Googlez:

With this petition, we hope to alert President Trump to the extremely disturbing truth that Google is deliberately and maliciously censoring pro-Trump independent journalism websites in order to silence them.

NaturalNews.com serves millions of readers every month with valuable, sourced and honest content from a truly independent publisher that isn’t controlled by corrupt corporations or government. In fact, independent publishers like Natural News represent the only remaining “free press” in America. (The corporate-run media is nothing but public relations for statism.)

Again, Mikey doesn't seem to get that Trump is the government now. And the government is, y'know... the state.

He is milking it for all its worth. This all just plays into his narrative.

This: 'that Google is deliberately and maliciously censoring pro-Trump independent journalism websites in order to silence them."

Should have said: "that Google is deliberately removing sites that are breaking their webmaster guidelines to try and manipulate their search rankings"

What can Trump do?

Maybe call the Federal Trade Commission, who will respond with a "not this shit again" ... they might ring Google to find out what is going on. Google will explain it and its all over.

I have been around search engines with my work for yrs; we seen these issues many times in the last 10 yrs, hence the FTC's "not this shit again"

"...the wretchedest of wretched hives of scum and quackery"...as written in the fake news story above, would be better in describing the last 8 years of those in the White House, and the MSM, then and now. This story above, is full of lies Such an obvious leftist Communist hit piece. I guess no matter how low they go, they will always find a way to go much lower. Just wish they'd go to N.Korea where they would be much more comfortable and feel right at home, and quit trying to take America down with them.

Let's see now.
Denial of reality? Check.
Claiming that for profit news organizations are somehow communist? Check.
Calling those who one disagrees with politically communist? Check.
Wanting anyone one disagrees with to leave their homes and move to a dictatorship? Check.

Sounds more like you'd fit in in North Korea than anyone who disagrees with you would.
And worse, this veteran, who completely disagrees with every thing that you just wrote isn't leaving the nation he spent nearly three decades of his life in military defense of.

So, do feel free to kiss my arse in Macy's window during the New Year's Day parade.

"I wonder what Mikey will have to say when that purge and coup attempt never happen."
I don't. It will run something like this: "Because I and my readers/supporters/flying monkeys bravely stood up against Google's fascistic censorship, we have warded off the purge I warned against." Or something along that line.

MJD says MJD says: "In my opinion, if a person accepts at least one vaccine, or allows their child to receive at least one vaccine, they can not be labeled “anti-vaccine” or an “antivaxxer”"
It is not generally well known but is nonetheless true that Hermann Göring saved his favorite Jew from extermination. I propose therefore that he was not an anti-Semite.

Let's review that claim, 300k deaths per year from medical errors.
There are 320 million people in the country, where are the emptied out towns, where everyone died of malpractice?
Where are all of the new cemeteries, as the old ones overflowed?

9 out of 10 statistical claims are nonsense, including this one.

What can Trump do?

He seems to be pretty keen on Executive Orders, whether he has the power or not.

Did “Lord Windermere” actually come second? (He used the ‘y’ spelling elsewhere, with an accompanying Gravatar, which had been changed to a poodle last I checked.)

Phoebe the poodle?

It's sad that google has become so political.

You guys are all cheering the delisting of Natural News, but when Google decides other speech should be silenced that hits closer to home you won't be so excited.

censorship is never to be applauded.

But then again, when the Nazi's publicly burned books, there were alot of people cheering them on. So we see history repeat itself.

When did a search engine company become a national government? When was the site taken offline? When were the site's servers confiscated?

The answer to all of those questions is one word: Never.
A private company has terms of service, if those terms are violated, as outlined in this blog, that company can and will remove the offending site from their registry to protect their own reputation.

Google is not a government. The site is still online and trivially found in less reputable search engines.
Come yell about censorship when Trump orders a site offline and it is taken offline. Until then, it isn't censorship, it's protecting a company's reputation.

Phoebe the poodle?

The poor thing must have a lot of time something on his hands.

Regardless, it's still censorship.

The whole purpose of free speech is so you can identify the crazy people. And never be so arrogant as to think that the crazy person is 100% for certain crazy.

Ignaz Semmelweis was a lunatic doctor who advocated washings hands before handling patients because he believed that tiny organisms caused illness. He was put into a mental asylum where he was beaten to death.

I'm not saying this is an equivalent case, but anybody should be allowed to say anything. Censorship is always a bad thing, without exception - even when what is being censored is wrong. Censoring an incorrect opinion gives credence to it. Has Google explained why they have done this? The people who follow the site assume it's because of big pharma, the people who don't assume it's because he's a quack.

Neither of you know why though.

He seems to be pretty keen on Executive Orders, whether he has the power or not.

Not much different than Obama then, who has bombed 7 nations over the course of 8 years, entirely with executive orders. He''s a war criminal and mass murdered, no different that Bush was.

When John Kerry was at the UN swearing there was proof Assad gassed his own people, I kept flashing back to that traitor and liar Colin Powell claiming there was a weapons of mass destruction program.

When Dennis Kucinich and Tulsi Gabbard actually went on a fact finding excursion to find out, I flashed back to Scott Ritter.

The US government has been run by war criminals for 16 years. I'm not saying anything has changed, I'm saying it's possible that it has. It wouldn't have with Clinton who knew Qatar and Saudia Arabia was funding ISIS, and so was Obama, if you are to believe Kucinich and Gabbard, who didn't find any "moderate" rebels.

It's all in the wikileaks, if you were actually curious to find out.

So Mikey has a new "broadcast" up. Google is now not just Communist China, it's also North Korea. Oh, and Sauron. (No, I am not making this up.

It would be sheer entertainment if it weren't for the part where he calls vaccine advocates child molesters. (Literally.) Gee, I wonder who he means?

Let's be frank. Only idiots allow their children to be injected with mercury, squalene, formaldehyde etc. And allow their hereditary immunity to be tweaked with respect generally harmless childhood illnesses.
It's basically a gene pool cleanup. Karma's on the cleaners, though.

so I guess all those that have a general anesthetic for surgery or a local anesthetic for dental work are idiots too...
I assume you realize what is in those injections?

Oh, also, "You are an infoslave on Google's plantation."

The name of this site is 'science' blogs; you know, about science and the lack thereof. I am just wondering, how scientific is this roasting, skewing, and burning of Mike Adams and his website naturalnews.com? As an independent research scholar and a student of medical history, I am appalled at how 'unscientific' your approach is when describing naturalnews.com and the sites' content. Mike Adams may indeed be right about there being a targeted attack against him and his site! Your blog just proves his point!

He’d be very happy if all of you twinkies would just shut up and get on with your lives.
Could someone interpret Katie's insults for me? -- for I am not wise in the ways of your American idiom. Are Orac and his usual commentariat supposed to be baked junk-food products?

Let’s be frank.
Let's be Travis.

Who's Travis?
Anyway, construct an argument. In the right place. Like in a subthread lol.

Your pitiful"faux "blog should be an embarassment to you. You people are WORSE THAN THE FUCKING COWARDS who dlisted this guy. These cuckoldsuse censorship because they know theiR views don't stand up to reason. GOOGLE, PAYPAL,REDIT, FACEBOOK,TWITTER by their cencorship of opposing opinions are admitting the inherent irrational weakness of their views. YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FUCKING COWARDS. There are many who agree with me. And your MONOPOPLY WILL SOON COME TO AN END. FUCK YOU, YOU SISSY-BOY MILQUETOASTS. YOU SHOULD HANG YOUR HEADS IN DISGRACE. HAVE FUN IN HELL.

DiD wRiTiNg In RaNdOm UpPeR aNd LoWeR cAsE pRoVe YoU pOiNt In AnY wAy?

Hint, no. Nor did your profanity or calling people cuckold prove anything other than your profound lack of intellect.
Delisting a site that presents pages other than what was listed in the search is nothing more than reputation protection. Google also delists known malware sites.
Google is not a government, the website still exists and is cranking out crank drivel even as we speak.

So, do kindly go pound sand up the orifice of your own choice.

" I am just wondering, how scientific is this roasting, skewing, and burning of Mike Adams and his website naturalnews.com?"

Things fall apart
It's scientific

- Talking Heads

"As an independent research scholar"

In other words, a proud holder of a Google University diploma?

It's always fun when alties invoke Semmelweis to show that Doctors Were Wrong Before, never noticing the strong similarities between alt med advocates and the physicians who clung to old practices and rejected Semmelweis (speaking of whom, it appears controversial whether the cause of his death was really a beating by sanitarium guards, as is reported by certain sources (some of whom report the story as "possibly" or "probably" occurring). On the other hand, according to britannica.com:

"In 1865 he suffered a breakdown and was taken to a mental hospital, where he died. Ironically, his illness and death were caused by the infection of a wound on his right hand, apparently the result of an operation he had performed before being taken ill. He died of the same disease against which he had struggled all his professional life."

Back to Mike Adams' trauma - I propose that whenever we refer to NN from now on, it should be "the delisted Natural News" (as a tribute to those folks who have gleefully (and dishonestly) referred to Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch as "delicensed").

How dare you folks criticize the genius epidemiologist who cracked the Zika mystery, not just once, but several times, with various braindead theories, all involving conspiracies.

Richard Wicks @181

Has Google explained why they have done this? The people who follow the site assume it’s because of big pharma, the people who don’t assume it’s because he’s a quack.
Neither of you know why though.

This has been explained, and as supposed by Orac, it has nothing to do with the site's content : http://searchengineland.com/natural-news-not-banned-google-fake-news-26…

and to make it worse. A Google staff member tried to post in that thread on NN about the real reasons it was removed and the post was not approved.
We can only assume t was not approved as it does not play into the narrative that Mike Adams want to spin for his gullible followers.

@ rich winkel #139

The following illustrates that fake news has infiltrated the highest levels of scientifically respectable journalism. We need dissident voices.

(followed by well-known quotes by Angell and Horton)
Setting aside the fact that it was not censorship, Angell and Horton didn't have sites like NN in mind as viable answers to their criticism of peer-reviewed journals.
These websites piggyback on real problems of science journals and pretend they are avoiding these problems, when in reality they are acting even worse.
They certainly never talk about real efforts to improve medical science publishing (Cochrane works, All Trials, journals like the french Prescrire, etc.) and let their readers imagine they are the only solution that exists.
They let them think that their cartoonish way of writing and investigating is the way real pharmaceutical scandals are meant to be discovered and denounced. Such a diversion of militant energy that could be used to improve the medical system / press is really depressing to watch.

It's all fun and shadenfreude until it's your website that gets de-listed. Remember that science nerds...

You obviously have no clue as to why NN was delisted. Mike Adams knows and he is lying about it. You are falling for it.
A Google staff member even tried to post in that thread on NN as to why and what they have to do to get it relisted (the post was not approved).
All this plays into the narrative that Mike Adams is spinning and you falling for it.
The facts do not suit that narrative.
Mike Adams could get NN back in Google tomorrow if he wants to. All he has to do is stop the sneaky mobile redirects that he put on the site. That is all. There is no censorship and no conspiracy.

I find it ironic that these "NN" followers who show up over here manage to post screeds that, while blasting us for being "unscientific," highlight their own profound ignorance, bias and hate.

Why do you think I approve their comments? The lulz are epic.

The Nazis were very adept at choosing what is real and not real. So were the Stazi. So were the KGB. And guess what, they burned books in order to prevent people from having alternative views. You guys are sick, and disgusting.

@Orac - agreed.

I wonder if they ever look at their comments & think - "hey, maybe this makes me sound like a lunatic, perhaps I shouldn't post it?"

I'm guessing not.

We "science nerds" tend not to try to game the system & use improper means to generate site traffic and ad revenue.

Before you comment, perhaps you should find out exactly why NN got itself into trouble.....because it wasn't because it was posting "fake news."

What the hell is 'cuckholdsuse'?

Where's a good old civilisation destroying apocalypse when you need one eh?

The Internet has become 'Critical Infrastructure' in the US, can that even be debatable?
Now with the Globalist (Facist) Giants controling what we are 'allowed' to see, it is time they had to answer to 'We The People'.
SIGH THE PETITION! SHARE IT WITH ALL YOUR CONTACTS!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/petition-ban-googles-blatant-…

@201 - Re: cuckholdsuse

At first I thought harold was just describing a new SUSE derived version of linux, but in his haste forgot to capitalise. cuckholdSUSE™

Then I realised that it was a missing space and he meant to type "...cuckholds use...".

But finally I realised it was a subtle code for everyone to kindly ignore anything that might follow, because anyone who feels the need to start off an argument with denigrating those they disagree with as cuckholds is basically saying "look at me I have nothing".

Hey dumbass Orac,
Answer these questions:
1. Is ANY AMOUNT of mercury in the body classified as a poison?
2. What purpose does mercury serve in vaccines in regard to human health? That is, why is it needed in vaccines?
You're an idiot for criticizing Adams. It is YOU who are clueless.

@Steve

perhaps you could explain why Mike Adams is lying as to why his site has been removed from Google?
A Google staff member tried to post in that thread on Natural News as to why the site was removed and what needs to be done to get it relisted. As you are such a NN fan boy, perhaps you could explain why the post was not approved?
Could it be that the truth does not fit into his narrative that you were so gullible to fall for?

Re #203. Ah. Just a 'cuck' up then....hurr hurr hurr.

Do I smell a Travis sock above?

Hey, idiot Steve - feel free to point out exactly which vaccines on the US pediatric schedule are only available with Thimerosal.

1. Is ANY AMOUNT of mercury in the body classified as a poison?
2. What purpose does mercury serve in vaccines in regard to human health? That is, why is it needed in vaccines?

If you don't already know the answers to these questions then it's even more hilarious you're calling Orac a dumbass.

It may be true that Natural news might not appeal to all, and spreads some poorly researched information. However, before you cheer about its demise from Google searches and archives (it appears that they're up today though), it might behoove you to consider this: Maybe one day it might be you or your site that becomes persona non grata because someone doesn't like what you have to say. Freedom of speech needs to apply to all, no matter how distasteful it might be.

Pulling a line from an unrelated article, but still goes to teh point:

"The people in charge of these institutions understand that if suppression of speech ever becomes the default option in America, the people being suppressed will be on the left, not the right. They also know that the only way to defeat bad ideas is to advance good ideas—and that the time to get started on that urgent task is now." ( http://reason.com/archives/2017/02/16/free-speech-even-for-corey-lewand… )

Replace "Left" and "Right" with whatever person or entity you wish, it's all the same.

This is not a freedom of speech issue.
Natural News has 'sneaky mobile redirects'. That is why google removed them. Google to that to every site that does it as it impacts on their search results.
Mike Adams knows that.
All he has to do is fix that technical problem and his site will be relisted.
Simple and as easy as that. There is no conspiracy etc etc

Now, as if he chooses to fix it is another story. That would mean he has to admit he just lied to all his fans.

Here is an interesting development. A Google staff member tried to post the facts on that thread at Natural News as to why the site was removed and what was needed o get the site relisted.
Hos post was either not approved or has not yet been approved.
See what the Googler (John Mu) tried o post here:
https://productforums.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foo…

Mike also engaged in gaming a contest on twitter by bending the rules ( he had his followers create accounts when only existing accounts mattered) Rational wiki/ natural news

BUT he is an computer expert ( see Health Ranger .com bio)

To respond to the question of the hour:

No, I do like dill

I don't eat pickles or mayonaised salads with it either.

I guess Narad and I aren't related.

Wasn't Dil the name of the trans p in the Crying Game?

correction I don't like dill.

9 out of 10 statistical claims are nonsense, including this one.

And, of course, 43% of statistics are made up on the spot.

More seriously: 300k people out of 320 million is a little less than one in a thousand. A back-of-the-envelope calculation based on life expectancy gives a total annual death rate of about 13 per thousand. So not impossible; the former is about 7% of the latter. But I'd like to see what they define as a death due to medical error. I suspect there is more than a little post hoc ergo propter hoc in that number.

Ha!
Mike tweets that g--gle is the # 1 Bully or suchlike
and has #SaveNaturalNews

I don’t eat pickles or mayonaised salads with it either.

Most of the Russian and Polish salads that use dill use sour cream rather than mayonnaise. You can substitute yogurt if you're feeling healthy. But if you don't like dill anyway... you probably wouldn't last long in Russia or Poland. :-)

@ JP:

Actually I've had spectacular Russian food but I think that it was French - influenced.
But I like the pelmeni and cakes.

We in the mainstream media in Noo Zillund censor reader comments all the time. It’s actually pretty funny listening to the newsroom comments moderators whispering conspiratorially about reader comments they are not letting slip through the net. Sometimes they do so by mistake with something a little too incisive, and there is hell to pay. We’re pretty precious with their narratives. They’re investments, you see.
I’ve also worked alongside intelligence officers in newsrooms (Operation Mockingbird, Noo Zillund style), so there’s that.

Details! Name names! Which NZ newsrooms were these? Which mainstream media? Who were the intelligence officers? They might be my erstwhile colleagues.

First, I'll be surprised if this comment gets posted.

I've never heard of Mike Adams or Natural News. Google has every right to ban whoever they want - for the same reason that a baker in Oregon has the right to refuse service to homosexuals.

It's called the right of association.

However, I find it ironic that most people who support this Google ban and make fun of Mike Adams, are the very same people who would disparage the baker and who would definitely be extremely upset if it were their website that was blacklisted.

The ignorance and hypocrisy of the far left (aka communists) never ceases to amaze me.

Comrade JP @103

I'm confused - I thought we supposed to be corporate shills not communists.

MInd you if those who shout about freedom and threats to freedom from the impending Obama coup can support a right wing authoritarian backed by theocrats, perhaps we can manage to be both.

MInd you if those who shout about freedom and threats to freedom from the impending Obama coup can support a right wing authoritarian backed by theocrats, perhaps we can manage to be both.

Well, if Obama can be a communist and a fascist and a Muslim and a godless atheist, anything is possible.

I'm not really a communist, just by the by, although I like to call myself one (admit to being one?) when accused of being one. I'm just a radical far left socialist. But tomayto, tomahto.

I see Google staffers are even reaching out to Mike Adams and Natural News via Twitter telling him what he needs to do to fix this ... wonder why he chooses to ignore them? Could it be if he fixes this, he will have to admit that he lied?

"Could it be if he fixes this, he will have to admit that he lied?"

Unless there's a Google Rule that rules violators must admit culpability (which is highly doubtful), Google would be content with having the problem fixed and almost certainly never comment publicly on the outcome. So Adams would be free to continue to spin his conspiracy tales, while triumphantly announcing that Google backed down in the face of a petition from outraged citizenry or similar hogwallow.

In the likely event that the delisting is short-term, NN wins - lots of publicity and a revved-up supporter base which probably will make up for any temporary drop in site traffic by buying more NN slop in the future (stories and products).

He does not have to admit it to google. All he has to do is fix the tech issues and let Google know and they will reindex. That simple.

He has spun a conspiracy as it suits his narrative. If he has to admit to his followers that it was the 'sneaky mobile redirects that he created on his site that caused this, then he is effectively admitting to his followers that he lied about this being a conspiracy - he will certainly spin it otherwise as his followers are so gullible. He has certainly spun this for all its worth.

I thought we supposed to be corporate shills not communists.

Have you been to China in the last 20 years or so? If you are ethnic Han and live in the People's Republic of China, there is plenty of money to be made by being both at once.

It's harder to pull off if you're a gweilo or you live in the West, but as JP notes, such trivial details don't matter to these people. By their logic, corporate shill = bad, communist = bad, therefore corporate shill = communist.

@David

First, I’ll be surprised if this comment gets posted.

Oh I do love it when people start by writing something like this. It makes it ever so clear they have never been here before. Given the heavily moderation comment sections on many anti-vax blogs and heck, in my experience Natural News itself, I am not surprised they expect it, but it seems like a bit of projection to think everyone else moderates like that.

I've been a fan of yours for years, but boy do I disagree on this one.

I have not read Adams' rant and I do not intend to. Sure Natural news is woo woo nonsense, but I don't want my search engines filtering my content. You're not trying to tell me that Natural news was showing up when I searched Google scholar are you? We are talking about a general google search?

Does anyone honestly think that we will have fewer stupid people if we hide the woo wOO from them?

This whole "fake news" idea was invented to shut down dissenting political opinions.

As for Milo, look at the state of free speech in this country. Why have things gotten so bad here that we need to have a foreigner come in to remind us that we need to protect our free speech? People actually hate him for having opinions that they disagree with. They actually get violent! There was a riot at Berkley when he went to speak and they actually cancelled the event. Insane!

If I hear more facts on Milo, I will change my mind. As for now, all I know is that he was speaking of his own experiences as a 13 year old. He was the child. I am not aware of him going after 13 year olds or others too young as an adult man. Perhaps he would rather not view himself as a victim. The world needs more people like that. Perhaps humor is his way of dealing with it and there's nothing wrong with that.

This blog seems to to extend from the self-fondling egotism of scientists who pitch science as a new religion superseding all others.
Let's not forget that science is by definition a body of knowledge that is always changing and being revised, and thus can thus essentially be defined as the limits of what is known. It isn't all-knowing, in fact it's actively ignorant.
It's the method that counts.
Now apply that method, plus logic, to the shutdown of natural news, infowars and multiple other independent media channels that (just coincidentally) have been labelled as Russian propaganda. (http://www.propornot.com/p/home.html).
Is there a correlation here?
And are they Russian propaganda*?

* this news angle was singularly the most laughable fake news of 2016 imho and I've worked in media for 22 years

Oh I do love it when people start by writing something like this. It makes it ever so clear they have never been here before.

It also tends to indicate that what follows will be some variety of weapons-grade stupid. In the comment in question, the commenter tries to equate Google's delisting of a website that was engaged in misrepresenting its content to their search engine with a small business owner refusing service to a potential customer based on prejudice. Google is reacting to actions that could harm its other customers, specifically other websites that might be competing in the same space as Natural News. That's like an airline banning a passenger who got drunk in flight and started to beat up on another passenger: the airline wants to make sure that the drunk passenger harms any other of their customers (not to mention their employees) in the future. Whereas a given customer's gender, national or ethnic origin, religious beliefs (if any), or sexual orientation are unlikely to harm any other person. That is why discriminating against customers on any of those grounds should not be tolerated (as well as being bad business; the customer's money is just as good no matter which of those categories the customer belongs to). It's reasonable to turn a customer away due to capacity constraints ("We're sold out/booked") or due to not offering the service ("We prepare Western-style cakes, not moon cakes," or "We are a halal butcher shop, so we don't prepare pork products"), as long as that's done independently of who the customer is.

Sorry, but in the instance of the baker - they are a business which serves the public.

Since what was asked for did not violate any standards of decency, they had no right to refuse service based on sexual orientation.

On the part of Google, NN violated the terms of service, which was why they were penalized.

Totally different situation.

First, I’ll be surprised if this comment gets posted.

Oh I do love it when people start by writing something like this. It makes it ever so clear they have never been here before.

It also tends to indicate that what follows will be some variety of weapons-grade stupid.

And what is more amusing, they know it is weapons-grade stupid.

Oh, this may have been posted already, but I did not see it when I looked back into the comments. This article goes into more detail about the issue, and specific pages which apparently had, or still have, problems. I've not been able to check it on a mobile device yet.
https://www.seroundtable.com/google-natural-news-deindex-23463.html

And Mikey carries on his epic temper tantrum, with new #SaveNaturalNews buttons. He's now raging that Google simply used his violation as an "excuse" to "censor" his speech, and that they would never have done the same thing to a "liberal rag."

He has a new "broadcast" up to. I'll probably listen to it for sh!ts and giggles and tell you if it's funny enough to listen to or not... before I get back to work.

Glad you are doing this service JP. I just don't have to stomach for it any longer as it is just the same stuff over and over.

He could end this so easily, the fix is so trivial, but it clearly helps him to milk this as much as possible. His followers are eating it up, and even when faced with the real reasons, they are denying it, or continuing to say it must have been selectively done. I don't think they understand how incredibly common it is for sites to get penalized like this, and they have done it for some pretty big companies as well, such as BMW, who was caught for cloaking, and removed much like Natural News.
http://marketingland.com/10-big-brands-that-were-penalized-by-google-69…

JP @223: I find some Russian salads terrifying. Last week a friend posted a picture of the traditional Russian salad "herring in a fur coat" which had been shaped to look like a herring in a beet-purple fur coat, complete with head and fins.

I screamed.

Yep, more of the same. Google is North Korea and this is David vs. Goliath and blah blah blah buy crap in my store and use GoodGopher.

Last week a friend posted a picture of the traditional Russian salad “herring in a fur coat”

OK, yeah, that one legit looks terrible, but it tastes really good.

JustaTech @15
I had to google this. Found a number of similar images, so not sure which made you scream ... I thought it was sort of cute. It would be a great cosplay.

h, this may have been posted already, but I did not see it when I looked back into the comments. This article goes into more detail about the issue, and specific pages which apparently had, or still have, problems. I’ve not been able to check it on a mobile device yet.
https://www.seroundtable.com/google-natural-news-deindex-23463.html

The e-mail in the comments section there is very telling. Natural News knows what the problem is. But it is nothing to do with them, it was due to one of their bloggers! (My Bullshït Meter™ is currently bubbling up to the red zone).

Well, if Obama can be a communist and a fascist and a Muslim and a godless atheist, anything is possible.

Say what you will about the Atheist Muslims, they are definitely and non prophet organization.

"D. Daneeka" is trivially Fucklesworth, just by the by.

Yep. Dealt with. I suspected as much.

The e-mail in the comments section there is very telling. Natural News knows what the problem is. But it is nothing to do with them, it was due to one of their bloggers!

Even taking them at their word on that, which I am not, it really doesn't matter if it was just some of their bloggers doing it without permission, they still have the responsibility to stop it, and delisting until it is done is not exactly uncommon. Otherwise those paid links are still there, still capable of generating revenue.

Say what you want, but I see it as censorship.

Google has a set of guidelines that websites are expected to adhere to if they want to be indexed in Google. Mike Adams made a choice to not adhere to them. As a result of that choice, his site was removed from Google. How the f is that censorship?

Sorry stewartt1982, but everything about pickled beets, mayonnaise and herring makes me shudder, and then you give it a head? It's a bit much.

Though you're right, it would make a fascinating cosplay.

Don't do me any favors by censoring where and from whom I obtain my information. You leave faux Fox need on your Google engine and they have more misinformation than any other site. Some of that information is also quite dangerous to our country. So eliminate Fox need and put Natural News, which I have been following for a decade. If not, I will switch search engines.

I've never seen such fake news as "Scienceblogs". What absolute rubbish ...

J@26: You didn't like all the posts about TRAPPIST-1? But that's such an incredibly cool discovery!

Mike Adams of Natural news is no saint! He used to be more honest until he started banning people that disagreed with the bad science he used when testing other companies products! He has bad mouthed many other nutritional products just so he could sell his own similar products on his website! He has banned many others from posting on Natural News and his related websites as soon as they attempted to post into his website and blogs to expose what he was doing to make more self-serving money for himself while hurting so so many good people! I'm no lover of Google folks but I want you people to know that Mike Adams is not the nice guy he used to be and he just got a taste of his own medicine by being banned himself!

Mike Adams of Natural news is no saint! He used to be more honest ...

I am struggling with this concept. Adams has been a grifter ever since I first came across his Y2K scam.

Even taking them at their word on that, which I am not, it really doesn’t matter if it was just some of their bloggers doing it without permission...

No it matters hugely. This will be the excuse that Mike Adams uses to his marks who see through the conspiracy by the CDC and Google angle to deflect blame from himself.

Adams will be aware that 90% the internet is now aware of the issue being that he was trying to pull a fast one against Google's terms of service. And after all Adams has to keep his marks spending their money on him.

I don't believe the excuse either.

You leave faux Fox need on your Google engine [...] So eliminate Fox need and put Natural News, which I have been following for a decade. If not, I will switch search engines.

While you are at it, Orac, there are too many states nowadays. Please, eliminate three.

It's all relative. He used to have the dishonesty dial at 9. Now it's at 11.

Guaranteed this writer is connected to big corporate pharmaceuticals in some way or other. Either pushing life dependent synthetic drugs onto people or some other worthless snake oil treatment that has limited success. This idiot is entitled to an opinion but loses all credibility when he denies the exposed autism vaccine link. Take the beam out your own eye #fakenews

No it matters hugely. This will be the excuse that Mike Adams uses to his marks who see through the conspiracy by the CDC and Google angle to deflect blame from himself.

I definitely agree, it totally matters when it comes to how he will present it to his rubes, but in terms of responsibility over a website, whether he knew about it or not is beside the point. But I am sure this will end up being a big part of his excuses once his conspiracy theories are no longer useful.

Now that the mainstream media is losing their power of influence it is understandable that pressure is being brought to bear on Google to silence dissenting voices. Clearly, the old establishment is running scared when they couldn't even put their puppet Hillary in the Whitehouse.
There is a changing of the guard happening and the old power blocs don't like it one bit!
These attacks on free speech are to be expected and are a sign that things are moving in the right direction.

WTF are you talking about? This has nothing to do with free speech or pressure put on Google!
Mike Adams was using sneaky redirects on the mobile version of his site which is against Google's guidelines. Any site that does that gets removed until they fix it. Happens to 100's of sites a day.
Perhaps you should ask Mike Adams why he is ranting and raving so you gullible idiots are falling for his narrative and why he is not getting on and fixing this. He could be back in Google tomorrow if he wanted to. All he has to do is fix the redirects. Its that simple.

This Webpage is "fake news" BS

Yet it is still listed in Google; unlike Mike Adams junk!!!

In other news in a(n) horrific case I've mentioned before:

Emil and Rodica Radita were today convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to prison with no chance of parole for 25 years in the death of their son Alex, who was 15 years old and weighed just 37 pounds at the time of his death. Alex got prayers instead of insulin for his diabetes.

I had intended to be in court for the verdict, but instead spent most of the day in a local ER due to a skirmish (which I lost) with gravity and the possibility of a busted spleen.

They actually get violent! There was a riot at Berkley when he went to speak and they actually cancelled the event. Insane!

If I hear more facts on Milo, I will change my mind. As for now, all I know is that he was speaking of his own experiences as a 13 year old. He was the child. I am not aware of him going after 13 year olds or others too young as an adult man. Perhaps he would rather not view himself as a victim. The world needs more people like that. Perhaps humor is his way of dealing with it and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Oh FFS the D-Bag incited a mob against a black actress because she's black. The full transcripts are available for his paedophilia defence; avail yourself of them before whinging like he does. As for Mikey Adams, what part of he violated G-gle's TOS don't you freakin understand before whinging yet again about censorship. It's obvious Mikey's readership has the collective mental acuity of a turnip, not to mention these self-proclaimed freedum fighters.

craig payne writes (#229),

Could it be if he fixes this, he will have to admit that he lied?

MJD says,

If he doesn't fix it soon his customers will lose faith and turn to medical science for what afflicts them in mind and body.

With all the fake news being published which most of it I believe it is beginning to be hard to believe anything. The 23rd of February I watched Dr. Oz and he had a publisher of fake news on his show. The man said his company made $6k + per fake news article they published.
I think I will check out all news I believe in and find out what their political preference is. If they support President Trump I will be more inclined to believe them. If the protesters don't watch out the Communist's Agenda will take hold.

Just before I had to haul my carcass off this morning, someone was equating this event to book burning.

The books remain on their shelves and are available to anyone who wishes to use them. The sole thing that has happened is that a third party who, at their own expense put index cards for the contents of that library in the card file that they own and operate, yanked the cards because the library in question violated the rules that apply to every single one of the libraries whose contents have cards in the file.

"Mike Adams of Natural news is no saint!"

I find this hard to believe. When I Google 'Mike Adams is a saint' I get 11,700,000 hits.

Boy Do I Disagree
I’ve been a fan of yours for years.

And I have been Marie of Roumania for years.

Perhaps [Milo Yiannopoulos] would rather not view himself as a victim.

Then it is probably a mistake for him to continually whinge about his victimisation.

“Mike Adams of Natural news is no saint!”

I find this hard to believe. When I Google ‘Mike Adams is a saint’ I get 11,700,000 hits.

If you search for the phrase "Mike Adams is a saint", you get 1 hit on Google and none on GoodGopher.

I did not realise how slavish and dependent my thinking had become, until I read the 53rd identical comment left by NN fanbois who had obeyed Mikey's instructions to come here and boast about their intellectual independence.

and they are allowed to post here uninhibited without censorhip. Perhaps one of these NN fan boys could explain why the comment on the NN post from a Google staff member about what was needed to fix the problem was not approved ... go figure they complain about censorhip

You want to see a lot of quack science articles? Check out this site: http://scienceblogs.com/

And they sensor the comments too.

Oh? What kind of sensor are they using to detect comments?

seems this is using copyrighted material on your website

Google "fair use", should any copyrighted content be on the site.

Richard Wicks, #182: "Ignaz Semmelweis was a lunatic doctor who advocated washings hands before handling patients because he believed that tiny organisms caused illness. He was put into a mental asylum where he was beaten to death."
Semmelweis did not believe in 'tiny organisms", but that decaying organic matter caused disease.This was decades before Pasteur produced evidence for the germ theory. Semmelweis was committed because his behavior changed. He suffered serious depression, fought with everyone around him, drank heavily, and showed signs of dementia. Modern physicians who have researched the available evidence have variously suggested Alzheimer's disease or tertiary syphilis, among other conditions, as the cause of his symptoms.
His treatment in the insane asylum was, sadly, typical of the times. He was beaten, restrained, wrapped in wet sheets, and suffered other abuses. His death was due to gangrene, which has been attributed to skin sloughing from his restraints.
None of this is relevant to Mike Adams, or to his violation of Google's ToS. None of this is relevant to the fact that vaccines have been studied for many decades by physicians, epidemiologists, biostatisticians, and other scientists, and no evidence of the evils claimed by antivaxers has ever shown up.

Milo Yiannopoulos can view his pubescent sexual experiences however he chooses, and this is not the issue with him. The really repugnant part is here: "Yiannopoulos failed to report child sex abuse so extreme that he himself said it “beggared belief.”
The admission was made in a 2015 interview with comedian and commentator Joe Rogan. At 4:46 in the video found here, the openly-homosexual Yiannopoulos explains how he attended the “boat parties” and “house parties” of Hollywood figures of the stature of film producer Bryan Singer (who has been accused of minor sex abuse). At these events, grown men were using for sex boys who were, as Yiannopoulos puts it, “very young—very young.”" (http://observer.com/2017/02/breitbart-milo-yiannopoulos-joe-rogan-podca…) Even that wasn't the problem. The terrible thing about what he related is that even though he was staggered by what he saw, he said nothing, and beyond that, his own words indicate that after seeing this, he continued to attend those parties. Even if he was afraid to come forward, shouldn't his shock and presumed disgust have kept him from going after the first one?
He can say whatever he wants, and long distance diagnosis isn't worth much, but to me he seems to be something of a psychopath.

If this censorship is fact than it is completely and utterly Orwellian control over the information people are entitled to seeing and using at their own accord. This blogger, whomever wrote this article is highly misinformed about the nature of a free world. Not to mention google is based out of the U.S.A., which has an amendment acknowledging the freedom of speech in very simple and easy to understand language.
I understand that Google is a private company and we're using their services but this looks as if it's the start to censorship within the United States. I am afraid to know what else Google is black-listing from the web.
We should never have to censor any news platform no matter what the topic or what people think of it. These are the ideologies of why the U.S.A. was founded in the first place; in order to maintain and uphold a free and open world, held to the highest standards by the Constitution.
We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy, and most certainly not a socialistic empire controlled by the government. We are the government, We are the people. If you don't like it, LEAVE!!!

P.S. This article is a disgrace to our ancestors who came to this land seeking freedom from oppression abroad. You should be disgusted with yourself. But this is only an opinion and I will respect that, since I seek to have my opinions respected and not impeded on as well.

Sincerely,
Alex Michael Gabriel
Snapchat: Alex4691
Twitter: Alex.M.Gabriel

If Google is the web for you, you're really, really poorly informed.
Google is a search engine company, there are quite a few other search engine companies out there.
Google is not the web host of NN, NN has their own web hosting service that they use and their pages are still up, easily available to anyone who knows how to type an address into the URL bar.

Now, companies have reputations to uphold, if one searches for a site and the results aren't what they should be, that reputation suffers and investors don't receive a return on their investments. That is legally actionable and the company CEO could lose badly in a court of law, should the company's stockholders seek redress for their lack of return on investment.
So, Google took steps to protect the reputation of their product.

D Rinehart

Say what you want, but I see it as censorship.

Does the NN website still exist? Is it still hosted? Can you type the url into the navigation bar of your browser and reach the site?

If so, it’s not censored.

End of story.

I believe that they only pulled down his listings many of which attack other company's that sell good quality nutrient products just so Mike Adams can turn readers to his own line of products. This guy has done some good things in the past but now he's not much more than a raving nut case that could care less how he hurts others for his own self-financial gain! His website is still up so they really did not put him out of business. Mr Adams has banned many people from posting in his websites when they call him out on his BS bad science claims to hurt his product competitors! He just got a taste of his own medicine! He had it coming to him and please understand I am no lover of Google. He just had it coming because he deserved it!

Google is obviously getting too big for its own boots, there is NOTHING in Mike Adams site that could be described a dangerous. .. as with all things, it is people’s choice to visit this site read and make their own decisions. No one is forced to visit ... so Google there are plenty of things happening in the world which you seem to ignore and therefore accept and do nothing about it...... shame on you for this censorship it is not up to you to decide what people can read.. looks more like comrade Google and China... OR Mao and China, and other countries where we have seen books burnt Google is in precarious company. .. I demand you return full access to Mike Adam’s website immediately.

Jen you need to pay attention! Google did not remove his website! It's still there! They delisted his links! Many of which he has bad mouthed other people's company's that sell proven high-quality nutrient products just so he could turn them to purchase them from his own website! He's not the nice guy that he used to be!

Erm, you do realize that this site is not Google?

I think I will check out all news I believe in and find out what their political preference is. If they support President Trump I will be more inclined to believe them

I can't help wondering how much Edgar Duvall has already lost in previous Trump scams like Trump University and the Trump Nutient-supplement MLM. He seems like a serial sucker.

And they sensor the comments too.

Use of sensors and associated instruments aids objective evaluation of the comments.

I really couldn't be less fond of a website than I am of ScienceBlogs, which has apparently never met an official story about anything that it didn't love. That said, the mega-players in "alternative" media these days are just the flip side of the disinformation coin--although they generally still carry much more valuable information. The power players of the world wouldn't have thrown their mainstream media minions under the bus this last election season without alternatives to fall back on, to appease the many people who have realized that criminal conspiracies are their bread-and-butter.

No need to worry about NN--the issue with Google will be resolved in short order, and business for NN will be booming more than ever, thanks to a plethora of righteous indignation about this alleged attempt at censorship by "The Man." And we'll be flooded with stories about how "We The People" saved the day with our outcry against it. The media manipulation strategy being used here is nothing new.

Nothing manipulates the media more than the truth does, huh?
Put funky redirects on your site, Google and other search engines will delist your site, just to protect their own reputation.

Jen Boon: " I demand you return full access to Mike Adam’s website immediately." Who are you asking? Orac? Me? Do you really think anyone here decides what Google lists or how? Tell them.
Anyway, you never lost full access to Mike Adams. All you have to do is type in the URL in the address bar of your browser, or if that's as hard for you as figuring out that Orac is not really the secret identity of Sergei Brin, use another search engine. Just Google "search engine" .

I just took a look at NN. It's still there. It's also hilarious how overwrought Mikey has become over this. What's not so funny is that the rubes who follow him will probably believe his BS.

It's amazing that Mikes hard core Natural News followers are so BLIND! and Dumb? Maybe! A load of people including me already explained that his website was never taken down! And also explained that only his BS filled listings were delisted for breaking the Google rules. Google HATES Link sellers! It robs the hard working honest website owners!

Doug, "And they sensor the comments too" makes sense when you realize that Sensor is a brand of razor.

While I'm typing this, I'm monitoring several hundred IDS and environmental sensors.

The Natural News supporters floating in here should probably read the e-mail correspondence with a PR person from Natural News in this comment, before complaining about how unfair it is:
https://www.seroundtable.com/google-natural-news-deindex-23463.html#com…

The part where he admits that "some bloggers on Natural News were "selling outbound links"" is rather important to this story. It means the site was doing things that are against the rules, the kind of thing that Google regularly delists sites for. Lots and lots of websites get caught doing these things, and find themselves delisted. Natural News is not special, it has not been picked on and given special harsh treatment. They have been given a standard penalty for sites doing what they were doing.

You'd think that might give people some pause over the claims of censorship and targeting NN. When someone from Natural News PR is saying that is what was going on, and indicates behaviour which is actually breaking the rules, it starts to seem rather silly to say it is a horrible conspiracy.

Delisting NN for terms of service violations is NOT censorship. It is a private company deciding not to carry a site on its private corporate service. For all you libertarians and Trumpettes, this is the free enterprise you so claim to love. This is the free market at work. If your local newsstand decides to stop carrying, say, the Daily Mail or Modern Gardener for any reason at all, that is their right. It's a business decision. The movie theatre can choose not to carry movies about monsters or fluffy bunnies. There is no National Search Engine Regulatory Administration that can order Google to list or not list any site. Any Americans who still don't get this probably don't deserve to vote because when it comes to the First Amendment you don't have the First Clue. Others from elsewhere, get the message. We don't operate the way you do. Private individuals and corporate entities can embrace or reject anyone else's speech on their platform as they choose. If you don't like it, use Bing, or Yahoo, or DuckDuckGo. Or demand that Orac resurrect AskJeeves.

And when I say "the kind of thing that Google regularly delists sites for" I don't mean they do it a few few days for a few select sites, these penalties are applied to hundreds, if not thousands of sites each day. This isn't some strange and rare event, it happens to sites big and small.

@ #46, Namma

"Pablum?" You call our host's postings pablum? Have you looked at any posts besides this one?

I haven't had a chance to read the newest articles over at NN, but I am curious if anyone else has. From the titles I did see he is basically admitting they were selling outbound links, but is now accusing Google of selectively applying the rules, and ignoring their own violations of the same rules. Would be interested in seeing what they found and if they are misunderstanding the problem they had, versus what they found on Blogspot etc.

The post by NWO Reporter is really scary. So the "power players" have torched mainstream media disinformation sources, in order to feed us more disinformation from "alternative" news sources! And who is "NWO Reporter", really? Aaaagh! It makes you want to crawl into a hole and reject all information, which is undoubtedly what They want. No matter where you turn, there are false flags everywhere! I'd stock up on survival gear, but They make enormous profits off that too. (!!!!?!?!?!?$&#*^!!)

I couldn't stomach reading all the articles on NN furiously denouncing the Google Overlords and flinging tu quoque accusations left and right (I stopped counting at nine such articles featured on the home page as of this morning). I do know that the very best way to get back into Google's good graces and get relisted is to declare war on them. That Mike Adams is a very cagey fellow.

Well, if he was selling links, case solved. He might find himself deindexed for months.

Alex M Gabriel
This blogger, whomever wrote this article
I love grammatical hypercorrection.

Not to mention google is based out of the U.S.A.,
I am fored to deduce that Delaware is not part of the US.

which has an amendment acknowledging the freedom of speech in very simple and easy to understand language.
But evidently not sufficiently simple or easy to understand for Alex M. Gabriel!

I admired Aaron Russell's dumbth so much I felt obliged to bring it back to the end of the thread, as a tribute to the power of the human imagination. Also I wondered whether he is making up his own personal collection of Alt-Facts or whether they are common knowledge in the human centipede of Antivaxxia.

Google ...is more than 51% owned by Government hedge funds
That would probably come as a surprise to Brin and Page.

<i<the fact that the CDC itself owns 75% of all vaccine patents,

It was not enough to say "the CDC own more than 21 vaccine patents" (afer RFK Jnr) or "the CDC owns 57 vaccine patents" (after Ginger Taylor). Some numptie had to go one better and pump the number up to 75%. How many thousand is that?

Actual video of someone trying to reason with a Mike Adams supporter.

https://www.facebook.com/NTDTelevision/videos/1489581401083965/

Once you touch Alex Jones, you are irrelevant.

Why not make everyone use their real identity.

Yes Alex M. Gabriel. America always welcomes people fleeing persecution.

Natural News was not banned from Google over fake news
A Google webmaster violation is the reason this website was penalized by Google, not its controversial nature.

>
Postscript: John Mueller, a Webmaster Trends Analysts at Google, has now posted on Twitter saying Google did post a message about the penalty in Google Search Console. He also added a thread that the site was penalized due to sneaky mobile redirects. John said:

>
Hi! I work with the Google Search team. We’re seeing a bit of confusion & incorrect stories circulating about what’s happening here, so just to be super clear — Natural News is using a sneaky mobile redirect, which is prohibited by our webmaster guidelines (there’s a bit about this kind of issue at https://webmasters.googleblog.com/2015/10/detect-and-get-rid-of-unwante… ). These redirects aren’t always easy to reproduce, they’re sometimes in widgets or served by ad networks, and can target specific devices, browsers, or user locations. When we last checked, there was one on http://blogs. naturalnews. com/bentonite-clay-a-natural-medicine-cabinet-must-have/ . As soon as this is cleaned up, the site can submit a reconsideration request through Search Console, and once that’s reviewed things will return to normal. No action has been taken based on the editorial content of this site.

Well now, imagine that.

Edward Snowden; "The answer to bad speech is not censorship. The answer to bad speech is more speech. We have to exercise and spread the idea that critical thinking matters now more than ever, given the fact that lies seem to be getting very popular," Snowden told Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey.

Thomas Jefferson; "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it."..."Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."...Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched?

John Adams;"“But none of the means of information are more sacred, or have been cherished with more tenderness and care by the settlers of America, than the press.”..."“The liberty of the press is essential to the security of the state.”

George Washington"“If men are to be precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter, which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences that can invite the consideration of mankind, reason is of no use to us; the freedom of speech may be taken away, and dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep, to the slaughter.”

US Constitution"“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

So, when did Google replace the US Congress?
If it hasn't, then your entire series of quotes is irrelevant, which it is anyway, as delisting a website from searches over a sneaky redirect code is not censorship. It's no more censorship than my regulating what a guest in my home says.

Darn it, screwed up the html.

Natural News was not banned from Google over fake news
A Google webmaster violation is the reason this website was penalized by Google, not its controversial nature.

http://searchengineland.com/natural-news-not-banned-google-fake-news-26…

It was not enough to say “the CDC own more than 21 vaccine patents” (afer RFK Jnr) or “the CDC owns 57 vaccine patents” (after Ginger Taylor). Some numptie had to go one better and pump the number up to 75%. How many thousand is that?

We're getting into Joe McCarthy territory here.

For those kids and non-USA folk who don't recognize the reference: Sen. Joseph McCarthy became infamous in the 1950s for his Communist witch hunts. He gave a series of speeches in which he claimed to have in his hand "a list of [number pulled from his posterior in real time] Communists working for the State Department." Sounds like the anti-vax crowd is playing a similar game with claims about vaccine patents.

I admired Aaron Russell’s dumbth so much I felt obliged to bring it back to the end of the thread

I concur; I made a start, but the task of trying to rescue data has proved to be a tedious distraction from properly treating this underappreciated entry.

Also I wondered whether he is making up his own personal collection of Alt-Facts

Or Ctrl-Alt-Facts.

You leftist fucktards!! You are the wretchedest, scummiest, quakiest pieces of shit out there. Mike Adams has done wonderful, pro-human research for years. How much are you being paid off to talk shit by George Soros, Monsanto, and big Pharma. You anti-human scum-fucks.

Odd, how am I getting paid by companies and individuals that I've never had contact with?
I've been paid by the US Army and my government service company. For the former, to be a SF medic, for the latter, to provide security for contacted government cloud based services.

I'm also at a loss of how one can be a corporate type and be a leftist, which would imply socialism, not corporatism.

No, you sirrah, are an idiot.

This is terrible news. I have never heard of Natural News, but definitely don't agree with Google using its power to effectively censor a browsers access to information. This kind of behavior is a slippery slope down a one way path. Google should be destroyed.

Fortunately, there is an alternative DuckDuckGo.

Once you touch Alex Jones, you are irrelevant.

As our surgeon host and several of the regular commenters I'm sure can attest, sometimes double gloving is prudent - though Jones-barrier certified gloves are thick and reduce dexterity.

because it's relevant.
https://xkcd.com/1357/

Alas, my life is too hectic to review XKCD on anything near a regular basis.
That said, I'm bookmarking that one!

To be the devils advocate for a moment, though NaturalNews should have been neutered long before it caused so much harm.
1) Though a conspiracy theory and Marketing NaturalNews was always reliable to have some quick response to anything that contradicted its views. This was a valuable source of information for those of us who track fake news, erroneous beliefs, latest medical scams.
2) This will not change anything. As mentioned NaturalNews is already endemic and has created progeny before it was removed from the gene pool by earning the Darwin Award. In addition Conspiracy Theory loves to be persecuted because that proves their conspiracy theory, not to mention the backfire effect.
3) Last as an aside, have you noticed that Respectful Insolence headlines are similar to Conspiracy Theory headlines. Long, lots of punctuation marks, ALL CAPS, and words like hilarious, epic, tantrum.

The most ironic part of all this is that Mike Adams set up his own search engine, Good Gopher, whose main selling point is that it censors sites that disagree with his own worldview. "Do as I say, not as I do".

You are exactly right and on the money Colin! Mike Adams has been banning hundreds maybe thousands of people that attempt to expose his BS bad science before they can get it to his many brainwashed readers. His posts of lies against honest nutrient company's selling quality products that help others just so he can turn his readers to his own products that are listed in his website has been hurting a large amount of people. Both people that have been selling and taking the important nutrition products that help them stay healthy and have been for many years. His posts of lies have many people questioning the very products that have helped them stay healthy to the point of having then quit taking them. There could be dozens of people that have died because of this and I put this on his soul to deal with in this life and the hereafter. YES! Mike Adams the So Called Health Ranger Has Hurt Many Others And His Websites Being De-listed my Google was well deserved! He just got a taste of his own medicine! He had this coming for a long time and its about time it caught up to him! I feel absolutely NOTHING for his whining and I hope that he reads this post!

Nice article! There's a world opening up for me - yours as well as theirs. Careful, though, the major problem with alt-right people is that they don't have any sense of humor and no ability of selfreflection. And that is dangerous. They're like the witch hunters, the only people who firmly believed that witches existed!

I find it fascinating that so many (allegedly different) people arrive here, clutching their pearls, making stirring speeches about censorship, having clearly failed to read (or comprehend) either the original post or the numerous responses.

It reminds me of the responses to the article about the death of the "Wellness Warrior". Essentially, the pattern is the same. These people feel the need to blurt what they believe to be true without pausing to consider the facts, utterly failing to engage with clear evidence which contradicts their opinion.

It is all entertaining enough while they remain in cyberspace. However, proper havoc can ensue when they escape into real life. For example, one of their ilk managed to become president of the world's most powerful country.

Your right on DR. Bollocks! People, espessilly Mike Adams readers need to know that there has been and is a VERY dark side to his actions that hurt many others including his own readers! LOTS OF THEM! Mike Adams has been banning hundreds maybe thousands of people that attempt to expose his BS bad science before they can get it posted to his many 100 percent trusting readers. His posts of lies against honest nutrient company’s selling quality products that help others just so he can turn his readers to his own products that are listed in his website has been hurting a huge amount of people. This indludes both people that have been manufacturing, selling and taking the important nutrition products that have helped them stay healthy and have been for many years. His posts of lies have many people questioning the very products that have helped them stay healthy to the point of having them quit taking the safe products that Mike Adams has posted negitive information about them. There could be dozens of people that have died because of this and I put this on Mike Adams soul to deal with in this life and the hereafter. YES! Mike Adams the So Called Health Ranger Has Hurt Many Others And His Websites Being De-listed in Google for posting impropper links by Google Rules was well deserved! He just got a taste of his own medicine! He had this coming for a long time and its about time it caught up to him! I feel absolutely NOTHING for his whining, threats and bad faith to his readers. I hope that he reads this post!

It's actually more dangerous than that.
Remember this? http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pizzagate-gunman-surrendered-after-…
He followed that online fake news conspiracy nonsense, "went to personally investigate" and discharged an AR-15 inside of a pizzeria.
Fortunately, nobody was injured.

so many (allegedly different) people arrive here, clutching their pearls, making stirring speeches about censorship, having clearly failed to read (or comprehend) either the original post or the numerous responses.

Half of them are under the impression that they are delivering their carefully-thought-out messages directly to Google, or to Communist Headquarters, having followed a link through from Mikey's FB page without bothering to read that either.

Brian Chivis
I have never heard of Natural News, but definitely don’t agree with Google using its power to effectively censor

Having mastered this level of literary plausibility, has Brian Chivis considered writing Penthouse Letters to the Editor as a career?

Smokey, if you have read the comments from his followers you would see that is a failed operation.

The endless stream of loons who do not understand, do not try to understand, refuse to understand or only hear certain trigger words remind me of this old Far Side cartoon:
https://desertdemocrat.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/gary-larson-far-side…

Enlightenment for them will forever be out of reach.

Q. What's the difference between Mike Adams and Immanuel Velikovsky.

A. Mike Adams has the attention of the RI scientific community in the absence of an original hypothesis/theory.

Can someone please explain the ~5,000 likes on facebook?

Maybe it is a Velikovsky-like effect?

Half of them are under the impression that they are delivering their carefully-thought-out messages directly to Google, or to Communist Headquarters, having followed a link through from Mikey’s FB page without bothering to read that either.

"The common talk of the day amongst the Whigs was, that Cope would soon 'cock up the Pretender's beaver.'"

First off, please show me, Adams fans, where in the First Amendment it says you have the right to have your web page/blog/twitter feed wtf-ever indexed by Google, a private company. Second, I have a blog. it's not much, and I never link to it here. Google does not index my blog, because it draws 0 traffic. Finally, for you cement-heads calling Respectful Insolence "Fake News" kindly educate yourself a bit. This is a Blog. It is in which our host, yon lucite box full of blinking lights, writes his OPINIONS on things. It is, in fact, the modern day equivalent of an editorial page. While this does not stop Orac from posting actual news, it does mean that his content (unless listed otherwise) is not news and so cannot be "Fake News". But thanks for playing.

It's a pity that you don't plug your blog. I'm always on the lookout for interesting things to read.

Isnt it funny all other countries use natural cures to fight disease and cure it except the USA...lol and some of you all continue to eat food injected with chemical poisons and here is a man who is telling you about natural cures for all ailments and u dumb idiots believe the man who wrote this dumb article which he is being paid to do cuz he knows the truth as well. Its a proven fact our foods and water contain fluoride and chlorine which are poisons. Ask the FDA why they dont push for vitamins and healthy fruits and want us to stay on killer ?. Everytime somebody speaks the truth they try to discredit them. And yall idiots fall for it thinking our government cares. Lol grow up and visit places outside the usa and u will see that we are being lied to. There are in fact natural cures that cure everything...do your research and stop believing everything on the internet. All of google is controlled by the government and FDA of course they dont want the news out that natural remidies do in fact work...ask yourself when is the last time any one of you been sick...lol ..well i havnt been sick since 2002 because i eat all organic fruits and i see a health care practitioner not a medical doctor...not a medical doctor who is ONLY taught to give me drugs that of course is controlled by the FDA...lol so yall can keep taking your pills and getting your injected flu shots with mercury in it lol...because i have never had a flu shot and never will...im extremly healthy with no concerns at all....they push this on us knowing that these drugs kill us and if we go all natural its hurts them because their profits in the killer pharmaceutical companys will plummet...lol open your eyes fellas...dont believe the news, google etc....its all controlled by the FDA and other government agencies...wake up America....democrats and republicans are the same...vote independent...they are for the people. God bless all of you...stay off presciption drugs and go to your local health food store and change your life...

Why, you're absolutely right, salt has chlorine in it and it's lethal!
As for "all other countries", I've been to well over 20 countries in my life, they all use the same medicines and vaccines that we do.
You must be thinking about countries on another planet.
But, the FDA doesn't push fruits, the USDA does, as that's part of their jobs. The NIH also recommends fruits, rather than high sugar snacks.
You also fail to comprehend what government is and what private industry is. Here's a hint, Google stock closed today at $844.93. The government sells bonds, but does not issue stock.
I don't like organic food, I like inorganic food, like rocks. Seriously, grow a brain.
I do take various medications, two blood pressure medications, otherwise my aorta would rupture and that would be extremely unpleasant. Dead kind of unpleasant. I also take hyperthyroid medication, which has quite literally saved both my life and my sanity.

But, after reading your words and weighing everything in total, I do strongly suggest that you seek professional mental health care guidance. Your touch with reality is tenuous at best and your rant, for a rant is what you have just provided us with, displays that break with reality quite well.

Sadly, all Mikey's content seems to be back.

Search Google for site:www.naturalnews.com

Shame.

Yea, darn it. From NN front page -

GOOGLE REINSTATES NATURAL NEWS... details developing... your voice was heard!
KEEP SIGNING THIS WHITE HOUSE PETITION (now 62K) to oppose censorship
Health Ranger to issue statement at 11am Central...

I wonder how Mikey will spin it. Probably 'your voices were heard, and Google crumbled'.

Here is how it happened:
1. Mike Adams fixed the sneaky redirect
2. He filed the reconsideration request with Google
3. Google reviewed it and, yes he had fixed it.
4. Google relisted the site.

Mike Adams just proved he lied to his followers who are too blind to see that.

Google should have delisted Mke Adams forever! Honestly in the past and still now he still does have some good things to say. HOWEVER he has also badmouthed MANY good people and he has given out false information about many top quality supplement companies to damage their sales and reputations just so he could sell his own products shown in his website! He has gone to the dark side for his own selfish financial gain without a care in the world about hurting others with his big mouth and bad science mixed with lies and misinformation. The real truth is, his readers and followers should not blindly trust him or what he says because he is no longer to be trusted!

" I wonder how Mikey will spin it"

He's been railing against the mainstream for years and now he can cite this incident to his followers to illustrate how 'corrupt' the mainstream is and how important he is.

Brave maverick rebel etc. FIGHTING FOR YOU!!

He's hilarious.

But try as I might, I haven't been able to ascertain how much he earns from his sites and businesses.

Jay
Isnt it funny all other countries use natural cures to fight disease and cure it except the USA…

Some people have very strange and misinformed ideas about what life is like outside the borders of their country state countrytown trailer park.

Apologies if Jay is parodying the antivax / Trump stupidity prion disease. Jay's spelling is implausibly good.

Waddayaknow. Mike Adams from Natural News is now calling for government regulation of Google, to require them to give notice and an opportunity to fix problems, and to prohibit censorship based on content. More top-down control-- ostensibly in the interests of disseminating "truth."

Would these regulations apply to Mike Adams' search engine, Goodgopher--which purports to provide a fair platform for independent media sites? Because my website was deleted from Goodgopher not long after it was listed, without warning or explanation--and I can guarantee there were no sneaky programming tricks behind it. I wonder how many other small independent media sites have been censored by Goodgopher--sites that, on the surface, would appear to be in line with its mission?

In a world of complex counterintelligence operations, you've definitely got to dig deeper than the surface to discern the real mission. And it looks like this op by NN is on its way to mission accomplished--with a hat tip to Science Blogs (among others) for their helpful contributions.

Oh, good grief... give it a rest. Adams has now complied with Google's rules and is now searchable. Go to bed, find another cause. This one is done.

This article is all about censorship, and the writer seems happy for this to be a good thing. You might not like what Mike Adams has to say, but I defend his right to say it.

There are opposing forces at work. The right is about love and freedom, and the left is about repression and violence. Look at the so-called peace marches. They are anything but.

Dave's comment bespeaks voluminously of the sheer inability to comprehend simple English.
That's both from the claim of censorship, by a company that is protecting its product's reputation and the most massive misapprehension of what the right and left stand for, successfully getting the concepts fully 180 degrees around.
Indeed, there was never an instance when I've been threatened to be shot by someone on the left, alas, I cannot say the same about those on the right.

"The right is about love "

Citation needed. Seriously.

Dave: "You might not like what Mike Adams has to say, but I defend his right to say it."

Perhaps you should try reading the article with comprehension. Or have someone explain to you that Google has rules about not gaming the system.

Google delisted him because he violated some of their rules. After he complied with their rules, they put him back in their index.

@ Herr Bimler

"Apologies if Jay is parodying the antivax / Trump stupidity prion disease. Jay’s spelling is implausibly good"

Wot you sayin aboot my speeling!

Erm, no that wasn't "me". I know I like a drink at a weekend and that Orac's moderation rules have saved me many a times from when I attempt to post post-clubbing. But I'm never that bad surely?!?

"do your research and stop believing everything on the internet". Erm right, after you.

The "right" (ie, wrong) wing seems to follow Albert Alligator's philosophic principle:
"I may not understand what you say, but I'll defend to your death my right to deny it."

If you are going to write an article you should stick to the topic and not force us to hear your personal feelings about politics and irrelevant individuals. Ironic how this is tagged fake news, although false news would be more accurate. I was on board with you until you started slurring Milo as an "alt-right" (he's not) troll (which he is self-admittedly), and I realized you are probably some liberal sjw brainwashed cuck. I'm not even for MIlo or everything he is for, but I'm smart enough to know he isn't "alt-right" or very right at all. Alt-right is another fantasy term made up by guilty liberals to try and justify their current nonsense. Judging by this article. I'll be surprised if this comment even makes it to the section. I think I will do a couple showcases of this blog on my Youtube channel, but you won't enjoy the publicity.
Just to note, my only discussion with you will be in the open on this comment section.

Ah. An Infowars/Prison Planet drone called me a "cuck." My life is now complete. :-)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Paul_Joseph_Watson

Funny how you latched on to that one little aside about Milo, whom I hardly mentioned (seven lines out of hundreds) and then only in the course of making fun of how Mike Adams tried to link Milo's downfall to Google's delisting NaturalNews.com. I could easily have excised that paragraph and it wouldn't have affected the meaning of the post much at all. I must say, you guys, for all your bluster about "cuckservatives" and "cucks" and "special snowflakes," are very cold and uniquely crystalline yourselves. Indeed, the most special of the "special snowflakes" that I've observed have been Trump supporters and alt right hacks, who whine to high heaven at the slightest criticism of them or their heroes.

In any case, I'm curious. I wrote this three weeks ago, and suddenly there's an influx of new commenters, including you. Where on earth did this appear? Why on earth does it matter any more, given that Adams was listed again by Google mere days after his delisting and is now operating as before the delisting, with no evidence of any lasting harm?

It's been my experience that whenever someone refers to another as "cuck", that individual is an alt-right moron.

Interesting, because "alt-right" is what many of these people call themselves.

Oh, and you'll "showcase" this blog on your Youtube Channel? How scary.

Well, if he actually does it, it could become annoying to deal with the likely influx of Infowars readers and followers that will appear here. Indeed, I kind of wonder what happened to bring him and a couple of others here this morning? Did someone post a link to this article somewhere, like on a conspiracy website or something?

Be fair, Milo isn't "alt-right". He's an out and out fascist.

True that, but the "alt right" is basically fascist, too.

This is the last time I will ever read anything on this web site. Whether you agree with Adams or not,, to write with such venom is unnecessary and shows the type pf person you are.
In a free society all people have a right to be heard. Although I do not agree with everything Adams says, on vaccines he is absolutely right. We know of several girls damaged for life by the Gardasil shot and a toddler of a friend, in intensive care for a week after the MMR.

In a free society all people have a right to be heard.

Here, let me fix this for you to read what you really are saying:
"In a free society all people have a right to be heard, save people who I disagree with, who should just STFU".

There, I fixed it for you, now follow your own idiotic advice.

If you are going to write an article you should stick to the topic and not force us to hear your personal feelings about politics and irrelevant individuals.

"Force"? "Us"? A girl named John?

It is just so unspeakably cruel of Orac to drag poor delicate Paul Watson in front of a monitor, jam in the eyelid specula and force him to read (which I guess is the same as "hear") an article that offends his exquisitely sensitive feelings. Bad Orac! Bad, bad, Orac!

I must drop Milo a note to tell him Watson regards him as irrelevant.

@chris morgan #139:

In a free society all people have a right to be heard.

Nope, wrong. The right to free speech does not include the right to a platform, the right to be heard or the right to be free of criticism or consequences.

Stirring up controversy and righteous outrage sells, and brings in more followers for everyone. What are the marketing machinations going on behind the scenes here? We're surrounded by niche-celebrity friends masquerading as sworn enemies, with the same powerful forces backing them all from the shadows.

Whether or not you agree with Holiday's politics, at least he spells out in this article how we are all being played, all the time--and not just from the direction he mentions. Divide, conquer and sell. In spite of outward appearances, they are all selling the same thing--and the ultimate price is your mind. http://observer.com/2017/02/i-helped-create-the-milo-trolling-playbook-…

In a free society all people have a right to be heard.

Said every single eedjit who wants Orac to shut up.

Go away Travis Schwochert from Endeavor, Wisconsin.

Travis has been dealt with again. I've been deleting all his comments, but I'm wondering if I should leave a few, just as a reminder of how vile he is.

Low-dose aluminum adjuvant injections makes mice slow and poisoned: h[]tp://vaccinepapers.org/al-adjuvant-causes-brain-inflammation-behavioral-disorders/

No, Fucklesworth. Go back to hanging out at the Vapor Genie's* place; I presume you've whomped up a new Disqustink account since that amusing scat-covering incident.

* You might note that he doesn't get the same treatment that you do, despite having (had?) a comically stupid aura-of-mystery routine going on, complete with on-again, off-again pluralization. Perhaps you could muse on the reason for this.

Travis has been dealt with again. I’ve been deleting all his comments, but I’m wondering if I should leave a few, just as a reminder of how vile he is.

Definitely the one where he claims he'll never leave until his personal information is deleted, followed by his posting his personal information.
This one, not so much.

I thought I left that one...

Travis has been dealt with again. I’ve been deleting all his comments, but I’m wondering if I should leave a few, just as a reminder of how vile he is

Yes, for his posterity and success at landing a new job. Which comments; you choose ;)

Be fair, Milo isn’t “alt-right”. He’s an out and out fascist.

I say to-MAY-to and you say to-MAH-to.

"Alt-right" is what people call themselves when they basically agree with much of the NSDAP platform but still have just enough of a sense of shame to realize that admitting as much is still frowned upon. They may not want to admit that they're fascists, but as the saying goes, denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I don't know enough about Milo (and at this point really don't care) whether he's openly fascist or pretending not to be fascist.

I don’t know enough about Milo (and at this point really don’t care) whether he’s openly fascist or pretending not to be fascist.

I'm in the happy position of having never even heard of him until he was past his expiration date.

^ Jesus Christ, me and the blockquote fails. I've got to wrap up this machine recovery so that some choice of keyboard and monitor aren't 18 inches apart and 50 degrees askew.

Definitely the one where he claims he’ll never leave until his personal information is deleted, followed by his posting his personal information.

Antics like that leave me skeptical about the identification of the sock-puppeting nym-stealer. Yes, he has claimed in the past to be Travis S, but he steals identities. Perhaps he is some neghbour who dislikes Travis S. and wants to trash his reputation.

That's an awful lot of effort to trash a neighbor you don't like, when said neighbors aren't even going to see it or know about it.

Besides, Travis doesn't have a reputation to trash.

That’s an awful lot of effort to trash a neighbor you don’t like

Well someone is going to a lot of trouble to make Travis S look like an obsessive creep. Either Travis S (posing as other people) or some unknown person (posing as him posing as other people).

Perhaps he is some neghbour who dislikes Travis S. and wants to trash his reputation.

That thought crossed my mind at some point but given he threatened to "out" me if I didn't remove his comments so he could find a job, I don't doubt he's Travis Schwochert. He lost his job as a window washer, somehow I doubt his vile comments are his biggest worry.

Oh, I think it's him. Check the comment that follows to see why.

@HDB: I suppose it's possible somebody is impersonating Travis impersonating other commenters, but Occam's Razor tells me to prefer the theory that it really is Travis.

Consider how easily recognizable his posts are when he tries out a new nym. It takes a pretty good actor to be so consistent in character--few people can pull it off. But if it's just Travis being Travis, that's what you expect. And is the gain this putative third party gets from making Travis look bad worth the risk to his own reputation if he gets caught? IANAL, but I suspect it's actionable if it can be proven. You don't have to ask that question if somebody is (wittingly or otherwise) trashing his own reputation.

Actually, it's not always true that his posts are easily recognizable. I recognize him right away when he's impersonating someone because he's basically scraping the bottom of the barrel with respect to old commenters whose e-mail addresses he can figure out. Either they're people I remember and therefore immediately recognize an impersonation or they're obscure but still recognizable to me. However, when he introduces a new sock, he often posts an innocuous comment, and I don't always spot him the first time. Fortunately, he doesn't take long to reveal himself; so the only time I don't manage to shut him down instantly is when I'm away from the computer or phone too long.

Still, what a pathetic life he must live if spending so much time figuring out ways around my moderation here (or Science Mom's moderation at her blog) is such a major form of entertainment for him. Sad.

Fucking fucks. You people started with this fucking shit, not me. I can't even defend myself against the Science Whore.

Have fun moderating comments for the rest of your life Orac.

It's not me trashing my reputation, It's these assholes who are.

It’s not me trashing my reputation, It’s these assholes who are.

My, is that the same mouth that you french kiss your mother with?!
Here is a hint, you demolish your own reputation with comments like you've been making and your overall behavior.

Especially when you start off sounding like me after I caught my fingers between the garage door panels while closing it.
At least, I had an excuse, heavily bruised fingertips. What's your excuse, a bruised ego?

I’ve got to wrap up this machine recovery so that some choice of keyboard and monitor aren’t 18 inches apart and 50 degrees askew.

Narad, check your email.

Someone seems to have a great deal of difficulty with cause and effect. Get lost Travis and no one will mention you. It's not as though you are contributing anything substantive.

chris morgan @140

We know of several girls damaged for life by the Gardasil shot and a toddler of a friend

Your friend should keep their toddler under control before xe damages more girls.

Orac

Ah. An Infowars/Prison Planet drone called me a “cuck.” My life is now complete

You know who else was a literal "cuck" - Genghis Khan

Well, if Travis is having trouble finding a job, I imagine the criminal record has as much to do with that as the obnoxious online comments. Given that a prospective employer can read for himself what Travis wrote, it's kinda hard for him to complain.

How'd the court case go for fleeing and eluding a police officer go, Travis? Did you take a plea, or get the charges reduced?

It’s not me trashing my reputation

That one I agree :) it's not possible to further trash a reputation so down as to be found on the other side of the planet.

More doxing. I was 16 years old.

And I was doing nothing illegal besides drinking beer.

@Science Mom:

He lost his job as a window washer

Wait, what? What do you have to do to lose a job as a window washer?

Julian@169,

Idle speculation based on comments 160 and 167, I'd bet a few quatloos on peeing on the windows of an irate customer and fleeing the scene upon witnessing the cops...

That said, I'd love to find out the court docket, any link Panacea?

Alain

High-rise window cleaning, with ropes. It's actually kinda cool.

Now I was fired for irking the asshole owner. He was a psycho-asshole and I couldn't stand him.

Now for fleeing the cops, I was 16 and the only thing I was doing illegal was drinking beer.

Now I was fired for irking the asshole owner. He was a psycho-asshole and I couldn’t stand him.

What'ya do to irk Trump? ;)

Now for fleeing the cops, I was 16 and the only thing I was doing illegal was drinking beer.

They couldn't chance he who could not be found in the woods. :)

Dude,

Did it occur to you that with half the energy you spent here looking for old thread in which to scrounge up names, you could instead become a proficient Linux expert in no time, have Linux from scratch running on your computer (look here: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/systemd/ ) and hack away at things like the new Vulkan graphic stack (guess what I spent the night working on) or Tensorflow (some night ago) and earn a living later on...maybe not at google (that juvy thing might matter less than the comments dump you made here but it still matter). Deal?

Did it occur to you that with half the energy you spent here looking for old thread in which to scrounge up names, you could instead become a proficient Linux expert in no time, have Linux from scratch running on your computer (look here: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/systemd/ ) and hack away at things like the new Vulkan graphic stack (guess what I spent the night working on) or Tensorflow (some night ago) and earn a living later on…

(Grumble, grumble, grumble...)
Extracting logs from a compromised Linux server. Then, have to analyze them to see how some futhermucker managed to get shellbot.S onto the server, then I'll have to explain to DHS why our logger was so saturated that we didn't see the alerts.
Lemme see, MySQL, 500 - 1000 events per second - on top of regular traffic.
And now, I think that my ArcSight instance just crashed on me.

(Patience, only one hour to shift change and the midnight shift can finish extracting the traffic logs.)

Now I was fired for irking the asshole owner. He was a psycho-asshole and I couldn’t stand him.

Given your inability to accept any responsibility for your heinous actions against others and then lashing out at them for retaliating, I somehow doubt it was the owner who was the aṡṡhole. Get lost Travis.

Once is happenstance. Twice is a coincidence. The third time, perhaps you should consider the possibility that you're the one with the problem.

Wait, what? What do you have to do to lose a job as a window washer?

Be Travis Schwochert?

@ Alain: I just Googled his real name and it came up on the first page of results.

Travis, it also says you were operating a vehicle. How'd you get away with not being charged with DUI? Not making yourself look better with the excuses, dude.

Then there's the operating a motor vehicle without registering it, and another charge for operating a motor vehicle without proof of insurance.

I used to see guys just like you (ie same charges) cycle in and out of the local county jail when I was a correctional nurse. Time to get your life together kiddo. You're too old for this.

And yes, it's doxing, in the strictest sense of the term. Which is not a crime. Which I've done to show that the only person responsible for your reputation is you. The information is a public record, anyone can access it.

There's an old saying I'll paraphrase. When you have a problem with one or two people, it's probably them who has the problem. When you have a problem with everyone around you, the problem is you.

Time to grow up Travis. And the truth is, if you would simply behave yourself and conduct your comments in a mature and honest fashion (which does not mean you have to agree with anyone), then no one would care about anything else and Orac would not keep putting the banhammer down on you.

Anyway I'm done with the subject lest I stoke Orac's ire, since he just wants to see you go away.

Also, no sockpuppets designed to evade bans and troll. And NO impersonations. This has been going on since around August or so.

It’s not me trashing my reputation, It’s these a**holes who are.

Travis, I'm gonna try, before I resume increasing your Google-juice, to give you a little advice.

A bunch of random people in the Internet saying 'go away' and 'you're an idiot' doesn't trash your reputation. What you have written is what trashes your reputation.

But don't take my word for it. Show this page to Tina (and, yes, you have been doxed). Let us know if she says 'Travis, you have done messed up', or 'you go, that will show them'.

Are you sure enough of yourself and your actions to do that?

Yeah, doxing is considered a bad thing on RI, because it opens the door for us to be abused by lunatics and nutters (the vast majority of Anti Vax).

Whereas the only reason you fear doxing, because the vast majority of the world would despise you for your actions.

I reckon even Gd himself turned his face from you after impersonating Lilady.

Impersonating Lilady was certainly a low point....if not the lowest.

Indeed it was. Despicable.

I think I will do a couple showcases of this blog on my Youtube channel, but you won’t enjoy the publicity.

But will it be Nuclear In Impact?

Wait, what? What do you have to do to lose a job as a window washer?

One possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRd0cp4MT3I

TBruce that was hilarious. Cheers to you.

According to your link Jay:

Revealing a “name” per se’ may, or may not be considered “Doxing” depending on the level of anticipated anonymity.

It's hard for Travis to whine "doxxing" when he has used his own personal information to identify himself on the interwebz. There is no anticipated anonymity.

Up yours Travis.

Erm Orac, you have my email, if it would help if I could use a different nym...

I'll just put your e-mail address in automatic moderation until we work something out. Unfortunately, I just learned that my power went out again. There might be no new post tomorrow again. Rrrrr. Stay tuned. I will, however, have Internet and battery power enough to moderate comments.

Unfortunately, I just learned that my power went out again.

Here, Orac! (Tossing Orac a *really* long extension cord, thoroughly pleasing the neighboring states)

No worries, my bad picking for picking such a common nym.

Hope you get your power sorted and I'm enjoying the trip through the old posts.

Travis, you're not making a good case for yourself by impersonating another user. To make a court case of it you must come to court with clean hands. You would be laughed out of a police station, much less a court room, if you tried to make a stalking case out of my post because of your other activities here on RI. It's hysterically funny that a banned person who makes a habit of impersonating others (including a well loved late commentator) whines about being doxed.

I didn't reveal your address, SSN, employer, phone number, or any other information that others could use to harass you. I repeated publicly available information. That's why I said it was doxing in the "strictest sense of the term" in that I looked you up on Google to find that information. Doxing and stalking/harassment are not the same thing. Doxing moves into the realm of criminal/civil code violation when harassment/stalking follows and/or damages occur.

Even the folks who did repeat your address and real name, you would have a hard time proving harassment unless you can prove anyone here started calling you and harassing you.

I doubt I even violated the TOS of ScienceBlogs, quite frankly. I'm sure Orac or someone else with SB will let me know if I'm wrong about that.

In the meantime, have you registered your care and obtained proof of insurance?

For the second time, my SAAB is registered and has always been so. It was my other car that I was driving to get groceries because my SAAB was awaiting a new brake fluid pressure sensor thingy. The heavy SAAB is nearly undrivable without power brakes.

I had to drive my other car which had an expired registration. I didn't bother registering that one because it wasn't running very well at the time of renewal.

VaJayJay said:

Up yours Travis.

Sorry. I have to use other people's names to defend myself because I'm banned.

And the truth is, if you would simply behave yourself and conduct your comments in a mature and honest fashion (which does not mean you have to agree with anyone), then no one would care about anything else and Orac would not keep putting the banhammer down on you.

Well, most of all long-time commentators here are flaming psycho-bullies or shameless propagandists. Behaving like an αsshole seems to be the norm around here.

And Johnny reminds me of Frank Vincent.

Travis Schwochert from Endeavor or Madison, Wisconsin:

Decades ago ago an MIT computer scientist who helped to develop the modern Internet discovered that one of his excellent photographs had been used without attribution or payment by the head of a commercial enterprise. When the thief refused to pay or to take down the image, the scientist responded by publishing the thief's name in close proximity to damaging personal information (thief, asshole, history of the transgression, etc.) because, the scientist reasoned, anyone searching for that person's name would inevitably turn up the negative information, and so the thief would be appropriately punished by being forever linked to the evidence of his assholery.

You've strenuously endeavored to duplicate that situation. Good luck with that.

Oh, how I wish we could get Travis in front of Judge Judy. She'd evicerate that ridiculous claim that he "had" to drive an unregistered car.

No one "has" to drive an unregistered car, Travis. You CHOSE to do that, and you got nailed for it. Karma. Ditto insurance. I don't give a rat's ass what your problems with your regular car were. It is ILLEGAL to drive an unregistered, uninsured vehicle.

You should have called a cab, taken a bus, or gotten a friend to give you a ride to the grocery store. If you have friends. Or starve. But there is NO excuse for driving an unregistered, uninsured vehicle.

And you don't have to use other people's names. Quit whining about having to game the system to post here. You were banned because of your poor behavior. It's not our fault it's yours. YOU are the problem.

Seriously. Learn to take accountability for your own actions.

most of all long-time commentators here are flaming psycho-bullies or shameless propagandists.

I resent that "or". I can be both.

Jay said:

No worries, my bad picking for picking such a common nym.

Please come back as VaJayJay!

The heavy SAAB is nearly undrivable without power brakes.

At the risk of feeding the troll, the last car but two was a Saab, and it wasn't close to heavy at all. In fact most Saabs are fairly lightweight, owing to the front being collapsible in the event of a moose advent. Soo I'm going to assume that is much like most of his other comments- not even close to truthful.

Panacea,

I suppose fleeing the cops is indeed a juvy thing (beer) but driving the unregistered car happened much more recently (Mr Schwochert DOB year: 1985, offences charge date 07/09/2015).

Dude,

As to driving a huge land barge without power steering, grow a pair of muscles and lookee at that land barge getting driven sans power steering :)

https://youtu.be/y5ssRbr4bO0

the front being collapsible in the event of a moose advent

Now I want a Moose Advent Calendar.

Please come back as VaJayJay!

So much for defending yourself Schwochert.

What? My '92 SAAB over 2,600 pounds? This may seem light to you but I used to own an '87 VW Fox. The SAAB is a tank by comparison

And Alain, it was the power brakes, not the power steering.

BYW, most of the effort that goes into steering with inoperable power steering comes from forcing the fluid through the circuit. You will find that a car with a manual steering rack is much easier to drive than a car with defunct power steering.

HDB: http://www.selfridges.com/US/en/cat/advent-calendars-moose-felt-advent-…

https://www.amazon.co.uk/PEMA-Advent-Calendar-Moose/dp/B0058BDJ90

Happy to oblige! (Now I want some of those too.)

Science Mom: Boy, you can just smell the Trump reek off him can't you?

Mr. Odious S: Again, Saabs are designed to be light weight, liar. 2,000 pounds isn't that much.
And even if the car isn't an option..well, there are bicycles, which maybe you haven't heard of. There's also these nifty things called feet. I'd suggest phoning a friend, too, if the errand absolutely requires a car, but from your posts, I'd be surprised if you had any.

Again, Saabs are designed to be light weight, liar.

Not really. They have an iron engine block. Cars designed to be lightweight have aluminum engine blocks.

Saabs are designed to be aerodynamic. As an airplane manufacturer, SAAB was the first company to use a windtunnel in designing vehicles.

How many SAABs have you owned Politicalguineapig?

(I hope Richard Gere gets a hold of you!)

I owned one Saab, and it was lightweight. Also, the Gere thing was an urban myth and it was a hamster.

Finally, screw you, jackass. Kindly go away and grow up, fratrat.

As an airplane manufacturer

A SAAB Draken would be satisfying as a road vehicle but I am not sure about its practicality.

TBruce, I agree with Science Mom. That was indeed hilarious. Thanks for posting it.

You are aware there are those of us who don't lurk around this page 24/7 who have never seen a Travis comment,they get deleted so fast.

Panaca

How’d the court case go for fleeing and eluding a police officer go, Travis? Did you take a plea, or get the charges reduced?

Travis

Now for fleeing the cops, I was 16 and the only thing I was doing illegal was drinking beer.

Alain

That said, I’d love to find out the court docket, any link Panacea?

The record seems to disagree with you there, Travis. Let me refresh your memory, being as you brought it up.

The best place to look up some history on Travis Schwochert is at
https://wcca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl

Note that (bolding mine) “Records not open to public inspection are not displayed on the WCCA website. Confidential court records include adoptions, juvenile delinquency, child protection, termination of parental rights, guardianship, and civil commitments.”

Click past the agree, and search by name. You will see 3 citations on 07-09-2002, (when he would have 17, not 16) - Operating while Intoxicated (2nd) Guilty / No Contest, Resisting or Obstructing an Officer Guilty / No Contest, and the previously mentioned Vehicle Operator Flee/Elude Officer, which was Dismissed on Prosecutor's Motion. So, yeah, nothing more than drinkin' beer. And drunk driving. For what appears to be the second time.

So, yeah, to me too it looks like plea deal – they had him on enough that any normal kid would have been scared straight, but not our boy. Two years later, Operating While Revoked, two years after that Operating While Revoked, then 3 years later, at 24 freakin' years old, Operating While Revoked, then the string of no registration and no insurance charges in 2014, 2015, and 2016.

What you got planned for 2017?

To bring this back a little more on topic -

While looking at the Autism petition, I noticed Mikey's White House petition isn't doing well, either. It was 62k on the 28th, and is at just under 71K now, with 10 days to go.

I thought for sure this one would make it, but I guess his audience isn't as large as I thought.

Sorry. I have to use other people’s names to defend myself because I’m banned.

If you're trying to "defend yourself," then maybe you should, oh, I dunno, try using your own fucking name, asshole. That one doesn't seem to have been deployed yet.

I don’t give a rat’s ass what your problems with your regular car were. It is ILLEGAL to drive an unregistered, uninsured vehicle.

Having the proper papers does not a safer car make. I truely wish that motor vehicle operators need sign a waiver not to sue the government in case of damage; Get the cops out of the ticketing buisness-- It makes no one safer to foul traffic like they do. The majority of people are not out to be homicidal maniacs on the road; it's their shit to. Liability insurance is usually a good idea in any event.

I've been driving a fully-papered truck for the past four years without a brake booster-- I'd let the brakes get bad beforehand (scrubbing roters) and had been stopping with the e-brake in combination with the regular ones. I knew the booster had gone bad but found it incredulous that single point of failure would so prevent one from stopping the truck. Others agreed, including a couple mechanics. I thought it might have been the wrong type of material for the pads and shoes (and new rotor) I replaced as that is when the poor braking performance really revealed itself to be only a little better than just the e-brake. On a damp morning, the brakes were touchy and stopped good for the first or second application only -- A rust layer on glazed drums gives that extra 'grab'.

Anywho, traffic had been increasing in a bad intersection in the saddle of a hilly road and this prodded me into doing the brakes. A mechanic friend had been telling me he'd fix them if I'd just bring it over; Sight unseen, he thought the only problem was the back drums not adjusted out enough. This was not the problem. I forked over the dough for a new booster and that fixed it.

'60's and '70's vehicles I drove would stop without a working booster but not the '96. As it turns out, a little over half an atmosphere (-8 psi) on that 11 inch booster can deliver an extra 725 lbs of force on the pushrod. Who knew?

I don’t give a rat’s ass what your problems with your regular car were. It is ILLEGAL to drive an unregistered, uninsured vehicle.

That's why there are safety inspections. Brake pads worn down to rotors fail inspection, as does a failed booster.

I find it somewhat odd that your host condemns things like revealing the personal identity of people who post anonymously on the internet. And, here you guys are doing not just that, but revealing the personal address of someone you don't like as well as looking up their criminal past.

Oh no...I get it. Doxxing and such is only ok if you guys do it. I completely understand that your own standards do not apply to you.

And even if the car isn’t an option..well, there are bicycles, which maybe you haven’t heard of.

That's more Lowell Hubbs's scene.

As cool as the "born from jets" slogan at Saab is, sadly it is really not entirely true anymore. That's the history of the name, no longer the history of the vehicles. Saab Automobile was spun off and became wholly owned by GM.

It's true that Saab was the first company to use a windtunnel in design of an automobile, but this isn't as revolutionary a thing today as it was back then.

I'm really surprised people are still running with the "born from jets" thing. UK Top Gear (original presenters) had a lovely piece on the history of Saab, the great cars and the terrible cars. And the thing that really struck me was that Saab was much more like Volvo in its dedication to safety than anything airplane-y.

Travis, if you stopped coming here as a sock puppet, we would stop talking about you. Really. Since you're going through the comments on really old posts, how often do you see us talking about trolls of yore?

How about give it a week long trial: don't post under any nym for a week, and see how often the commentariate mentions you.

Oh no…I get it. Doxxing and such is only ok if you guys do it. I completely understand that your own standards do not apply to you.

You already doxxed yourself Travis and then harassed us all over the place. If you don't like the results of your actions then cease. Sod off Schwochert you aren't going to get the result you want.

I find it somewhat odd that your host condemns things like revealing the personal identity of people who post anonymously on the internet. And, here you guys are doing not just that, but revealing the personal address of someone you don’t like as well as looking up their criminal past.

Two things to note, Travis Schwochert from Endeavor, Wisconsin -

First, if you stop, we stop. Go away, and never post here again, and we will never mention you again. You'll be forgotten like the cum-stain you are.

Second, I may think you're an idiot, and I may think you should be driven from polite society, and I might say so often and clearly, and I might be an a$$hole (and all four of those statements are almost certain), but I won't lie about you, nor will I allow someone else to lie about you, even you. You told Panaca that your fleeing charge was when you were doing nothing but drinking beer at 16, and that is just not true. You were 17, and you were not found guilty of fleeing. Facts matter. If you'd just told the truth, I'd have no reason to bring it up.

Did you just do too many drugs and drink too much beer for a young, developing brain? Is that the cause for your memory problems?

I'm old enough to remember 2-stroke SAABs (and DKWs). I saw one once that was laying down a cloud of blue smoke behind them that obscured all 8 lanes of Highway 99. I swear they must have reversed the ratio of gas and oil when they were mixing it.

Maybe when the EPA is eliminated they'll bring them back.

"Second, I may think you’re an idiot, and I may think you should be driven from polite society, and I might say so often and clearly, and I might be an a$$hole (and all four of those statements are almost certain), but I won’t lie about you, nor will I allow someone else to lie about you, even you."

Except, as your host can verify (though I doubt he will, knowing his penchant for bias, paranoia, and hypocrisy), I am not Travis. So, what were you saying about lies?

Do please continue with your hypocrisy...it is extremely amusing!

Oh, by the way Orac...nice job of showing your paranoia by blocking out one of the IP addresses I use from commenting. I mean, after all, you don't believe in censorship or anything...nor do you believe in Doxing...unless it's you and your sycophants doing it, of course.

@ Orac, just checking, did you email me a password change?

Some links to ensure moderation:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/03/14/in-the-era-of-donald-trump…
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2017/03/13/an-uncomfortable-question-…

TVRBK: I just met a guy who races one of those kind of Saabs in the 24 hours of Lemons (not to be confused with the 24 hours of LeMons).

@Johnny,

You went deeper than I had the energy to.

I really didn''t detest Travis the way most of you did until he impersonated lilady. I had no dog in the fight.

Drunk drivers, OTOH, I view as lower than pond scum. I've taken care of the wreckage they turn innocent people into one too many times to have any regard for drunk drivers whatsoever. They should be locked up for a year on the first conviction, no probation, no suspended sentence, and have their licenses suspended for a year after they get out. No mercy, as they give the general public none by their actions.

Travis is just another little man child who is finally learning (slowly) that bad behavior has consequences. Just like that other man child, Milo Yuckupolis.

Justatech@229,

This could be the most ludicrous version of the "toxins" gambit I've ever seen

oracknows — Wed, 21 Dec 2016 02:12:50 +0000

This could be the most ludicrous version of the "toxins" gambit I've ever seen

One of the oldest antivaccine tropes that first encountered is one that I like to call the “toxins gambit.” Basically, this is an antivaccine lie that portrays vaccines as being laden with all manner of “toxins” because they have—gasp!—chemicals with scary sounding names and even some chemicals that are toxic. The lie derives from the the famous adage that the “dose makes the poison.” For instance, it’s well known that there are traces of formaldehyde in some vaccines left over from the production process. Sounds scary, right? Certainly our old buddy the antivaccine-sympathetic pediatrician Dr. Jay Gordon thought so seven years ago.

Unfortunately, since then the toxins gambit has truly been the antivaccine lie that won’t die, a veritable Whac-A-Mole of misinformation such that, as soon as skeptics and pro-science vaccine advocates whack down one “toxins”-related lie about vaccines, another one pops up to take its place who knows where. Not surprisingly, Jenny McCarthy is also a fan.

It’s actually been a while since I’ve come across the toxins gambit in its purest form, so much so that I had started to think that maybe—just maybe—antivaccine activists had finally figured out just how utterly scientifically ignorant and intellectually bankrupt that gambit is. Of course, even at the time, I suspected that I was engaging in a bit of wishful thinking not unlike that of sane Americans who thought that somehow enough electors in the Electoral College would refuse to vote for Donald Trump and deny him the Presidency. I now know that it was, given that I found what has to be one of the purest, most idiotic distillations of the toxins gambit published on the website of that alt right rising star and all purpose wingnut Mike Adams. It wasn’t written by Mike Adams, but one of his minions, S.D. Wells (who, I’ve long suspected, is a pseudonym for Adams himself given that I’ve never been able to find anything out about him). Oh, wait. I guess not. He doesn’t sound like Adams.

Wells does, of course, belong on NaturalNews.com, given how he produces posts like The 7 most dangerous vaccines injected into humans and exactly why they cause more harm than good. If we’ve encountered the toxins gambit on steroids before, Wells provides us with the toxins gambit on steroids, methamphetamine, and PCP. To give you an idea of the black hole-density stupid being laid down by Wells, just check out this paragraph:

Yet, what if you found out today that the worst odds you or your children have of being infected with disease, disorder, and deformity exist in getting injected repeatedly with neurotoxins, genetically modified bacteria, live experimental strains of multiple viruses and pesticides? Consider this: not one single vaccine ever produced that is recommended by the CDC today has ever been proven safe or effective. Why? They dont have to prove it. All they have to do is scare the living hell out of everyone using propaganda, and its worked for 75 years.

It’s as though Wells lives in an alternate reality where all the science, clinical trials, and epidemiological studies showing that vaccines are indeed safe and effective was never done. Or perhaps we live in George Orwell’s fictional world of Oceania in which, as alliances shift between the three superpowers of the era, inconvenient newspapers, magazines, photographs, and transcripts are disposed of in favor of new versions revised to be congruent with what the powers that be want. Only in this case, it’s the memory holing of science by antivaccine ideologues, who can’t bear to admit that vaccines actually work and are incredibly safe. In this case, any study that shows vaccines are safe and effective gets memory holed (metaphorically speaking). It’s as though the studies were never done.

Fortunately, the scientific literature never forgets (or at least rarely forgets), which makes howlers like this Wells’ article all the more amusing. In particular, I was amused at the utter predictability of Wells’ first choice for the most deadly vaccine. Can you guess what it is? I bet that regular readers can. Yes, it’s Gardasil:

Forget for a moment the fact that many girls who get the HPV vaccine beginning at age 9 for a sexually transmitted disease (diseases they don’t have) go into immediate anaphylactic shock and some into comas and die, and let’s just talk about the insane boatload of chemicals the manufacturers put in this concoction that belong nowhere in medicine, ever, especially that which is injected directly into muscle tissue and that which can penetrate the blood/brain barrier. Plus, remember to triple the amounts of these carcinogenic, dangerous, ludicrous chemical ingredients of Gardasil, because there are 3 of these toxic jabs required.

Um. No. There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock, become comatose, and then die. There are, in fact, multiple very large studies showing that Gardasil is safe. For example, there was a study of 189,000 young females who received the vaccine that concluded that the HPV vaccine was only associated with same-day syncope (that’s fainting to lay people) and skin infections in the two weeks after vaccination. The authors concluded that, “this study did not detect evidence of new safety concerns among females 9 to 26 years of age secondary to vaccination with HPV4.” They also noted regarding conditions for which an elevated odds ratio was noted that medical record review “revealed that most diagnoses were present before vaccination or diagnostic workups were initiated at the vaccine visit.” I can’t help but note here that pretty much any pediatrician or nurse who deals with adolescents knows that adolescent girls are prone to vasovagal reactions after any injection, blood draw, or needlestick. It’s why they’re made to wait after a vaccination or blood draw, to make sure they don’t faint. Then, of course, An even larger study of a million girls in Denmark published in BMJ found “no evidence supporting associations between exposure to qHPV vaccine and autoimmune, neurological, and venous thromboembolic adverse events. Although associations for three autoimmune events were initially observed, on further assessment these were weak and not temporally related to vaccine exposure. Furthermore, the findings need to be interpreted considering the multiple outcomes assessed.” In other words, same as it ever was. There are more studies like this where this came from.

But what about those evil toxins? Oh, yes, here they are:

First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach? Is it coincidence that the side effects listed and reported with the Gardasil vaccine match those of sodium borate poisoning? No, it’s not a coincidence. Did you know that anything imported into the European Union that contains borax must carry a warning label stating, “May damage fertility” and “May damage the unborn child.” This is what America “recommends” for preteen and teenage girls who are just reaching the age of fertility. Unbelievable!

Then, Gardasil HPV contains aluminum at 225mcg, which causes nerve cell death and helps the vaccine chemicals enter the brain. Let’s not forget that Gardasil HPV contains polysorbate 80 at 50mcg. Polysorbate 80 is used as an emulsifier in foods, but when injected into animals (such as humans), causes rapid, unnatural growth of reproductive organs, causing sterility. This is population control through vaccines, just as Bill Gates once said at a TED conference would be ideal for reducing the world’s population by a few billion. Polysorbate 80 is what causes the anaphylactic shock and also causes cancer and birth defects, while we’re on that topic. Sorry, but there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride at nearly 10mcg.

Sodium chloride? 10 μg? I half think that Wells is trolling Adams’ readers. Can he really be that stupid and ignorant? We’re talking about friggin’ table salt! And 10 μg? The American Heart Association recommends no more than 2,400 mg of sodium per day, with an ideal limit of no more than 1,500 mg a day. Let’s use the lower number. 1 mg = 1,000 μg. Basically, Wells is saying that an amount of salt 150,000 times less than the AHA recommendation for maximum intake of salt in a day is harmful. Let’s look at it another way. Consider a 50 kg adult (a lightweight). Such an adult will have roughly 200 g of sodium chloride in his or her body. That’s 200,000 mg or 200,000,000. Getting the idea? That’s 20 million times more than the 10 μg Wells tried to scare his audience with, almost as an aside. No wonder Wells said “there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride.” That’s basically his way of saying to his readers, “You’re too stupid to realize that this is an inconsequential amount of sodium.

The only reason I spend to much time on Wells’ offhanded remark about sodium chloride is to illustrate the depths of ignorance plumbed by the toxins gambit. It makes putting the other fear mongering into context a bit easier. In fact, if you doubt how idiotic Wells, is, get a load of this:

Sodium chloride raises blood pressure and inhibits muscle contraction and growth.

Bwahahahaha! As though 10 μg of sodium chloride could do that. OK, it might do it to a few cells immediately surrounding the intramuscular injection site, but other than that, forget it.

For instance, I’ve written about Polysorbate 80 several times before and the myth that it causes premature ovarian failure based on rodent studies that used massive quantities of the compound. then, of course, there’s the dreaded aluminum, which has become the new mercury, even though it has a long history of safety.

But what about the dreaded borate? Again, let the dose make the poison, and 35 μg is not dangerous. Basically, Wells is doing the same thing that all antivaccine ideologues do when they invoke the toxins gambit. He’s frightening people with horrible effects that require doses much, much higher than what is in a vaccine.

The hilarity continues with Wells describing the ingredients of the MMR:

Under Appendix B, listed on the CDC website, you can find the ingredients for the MMR (MMR-II), the combination vaccines that contain recombinant human albumin, sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick (egg) embryo cell culture, human diploid lung fibroblasts, and fetal bovine serum, among other certain preservatives and chemical adjuvants. In the “ProQuad” version, or MMRV (w/vericella for chicken pox), they’ve added monosodium L-glutamate, neomycin, and MRC-5 cells. And although measles is a respiratory disease accompanied by an uncomfortable rash and fever illness that anyone with a normal immune system will likely survive, the media scares the public into getting jabbed with neurotoxins.

It’s as though Wells thinks that the cells used to grow the virus are left in the vaccine! That would certainly be very sloppy. He also seems to think that vaccine manufacturers just “add” MRC-5 cells for no apparent reason when in fact that’s the cell line used to grow the virus, after which the cells are discarded. As for the rest, it all sounds scary, but in the amounts present in vaccines, these substances are a whole lot of nothing.

I think I’ll finish with what is probably the most ridiculous part of Wells’ little screed. There were so many ridiculous parts that it was hard to choose, and some of you might disagree, but this is my choice and I’m sticking too it:

Human albumin is the protein portion of blood from pooled human venous plasma and when injected causes fever, chills, hives, rash, headache, nausea, breathing difficulty, and rapid heart rate. Injecting “pooled blood” can result in a loss of body cell mass and cause immunodeficiency virus infection, or contain SV40, AIDS, cancer or Hepatitis B from drug addicts. Still want that MMR vaccine? Didn’t think so.

It’s hard for me not to believe that Wells doesn’t have utter contempt for his readers to have written something this mind-numbingly silly. Either that, or Wells himself is really, really ignorant. I suppose that it could be a combination of both. Either way, we’re not talking about pooled human venous plasma or pooled blood. Did Wells forget that he himself noted that this is recombinant human albumin. It’s not from human blood or plasma. It’s made in bacteria using recombinant DNA. There’s no chance of its containing AIDS, SV40, or hepatitis B from drug addicts.

I know I haven’t said this in a long time, but, damn, the stupid, it burns. Wells’ blather is even dumber than previous iterations of the toxins gambit that I’ve seen—and more despicable.

oracknows Tue, 12/20/2016 - 21:12

Categories

Medicine

"Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach?"

No, and I'm not trying to kill her either.

First we have sodium borate ... this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid

Is it even legal to be this stupid?

I'd go with himself really ignorant. I really do think many of these people are pretty sincere in their horror from vaccines. Be nice and don't deconstruct the ingredients in organic foods for them, or - unless they really believe as a tenant that the difference between injection and ingestion is the end-all, and they might, they will starve to death.

And the real problem is that most readers want to believe this. They won't look past the scary chemical names and scary claims.

I was curious what readers at NaturalNews.com thought about the salt silliness, and while it was brought up, I had to roll my eyes at one of the replies to that commenter:

One is shot straight into your bloodstream bypassing all your bodies natural defense mechanisms the other is run through your digestive system, big difference.

This seems to be the stock answer when it comes to anything found naturally in the body that is also in vaccines, but they want to make it scary, such as squalene or Al. But I am really curious what they think the big difference is, do they think the salt magically changes when it goes through the digestive system? What natural defences do they think that salt is bypassing? It is mind boggling.

I fear that the only way the anti-vaccine movement is going to join the rest of the world in modern times is if there is a massive and deadly epidemic in the western world. Maybe a re-run of the 1918 Influenza pandemic, or maybe a mutated polio strain. Even then, they would probably push the blame to someone else. The government, CDC, political party opposed to their beliefs, big Pharma, etc. Maybe these health-warriors should be given a free trip to one of those wonderful places with minimal or no vaccinations so they can enjoy the bliss of a life free of vaccine-fears. I'm sure the never-ending stream of dead children will eventually wake them the f*ck up. The big question is; How many dead children from vaccine preventable diseases will it take to wake up each moron. But remember the toxins in the vaccines are far deadlier then the disease. IDIOTS.

It almost seemed like Wells was going to give it all up and land in the dihydrogen monoxide bucket which is mostly what makes up vaccines, and us. Almost.

Orac's clearly just trying to cover for things he did back in his ER days.
I'll bet quantities of quatloos that time after time he ordered that patients be given whole litres of IV "normal" (yeah, sure, "normal" - they do it so often they think it's normal) saline, which has NINE THOUSAND micrograms of sodium chloride PER MILLILITRE! Or maybe he ordered lactated Ringer's. It's only got 600 µg/mL of sodium chloride, but it's also got 300 µg/mL of potassium chloride, and that stuff causes horrible pain when injected IV and it'll stop a beating heart! Then there's the calcium chloride, at 200 µg/mL - they put that on roads to melt ice. He probably even ordered plasma products that had been deliberately treated with polysorbate 80, with the claim that the treatment killed viruses in the plasma.

I have much difficulty trying to tell if people like Alex Jones and Wells really are profoundly ignorant or just lying liars who will write or say anything to keep their rubes gulled and coming back for more. I won't mention by name the Cheetos-colored real estate salesman, though we know for certain he is both ignorant and a liar.

I need another cup of tea. I don't drink coffee - no one has ever proven that gak is safe to drink!

This may be the first time I've seen a microgram dosage of sodium chloride hyped as a vaccine Toxin. The previous winner was in an Amazon book review by a self-identified nurse who warned readers that vaccines could contain dextrose. Truly nasty stuff.

I like the image accompanying this article, complete with U.N.-style logo (fits nicely into what the Health Ninny calls "the globalist war against humanity). I didn't know that "nerve disease" came in liquid form, which sounds handy.

First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches.

Aside from the issues with this statement that other commenters have noted, there is the not-so-small matter that effects differ from species to species. Every few years I need to put out borax bait traps to deal with ants invading my kitchen. Borax is quite toxic to ants--the way it works is that the workers take it back and feed it to the queen, who dies as a result. There is a reason I use borax rather than other ant poisons: at least in the doses required to deal with ants, borax is not toxic to humans, whereas many other ant poisons are, so borax can be safely used in a kitchen.

Does this nincompoop ever eat chocolate? By his logic he shouldn't, because the theobromine in chocolate is toxic to dogs. And obviously dogs are more like humans than ants or cockroaches are.

This lines up with my second favorite antivaccidiot trope: the "I want to be able to pronounce all the ingredients" line. Because vocabulary should determine the efficacy and safety of something. Virtually anything is toxic to humans in a large enough quantity, and significantly less than that is...gasp, not dangerous!

Also should someone explain to NaturalNews consumers that salt being in your digestive tract doesn't turn the salt into anything besides salt? If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

I didn’t know that “nerve disease” came in liquid form, which sounds handy.

Back in the day, we called it VX

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

Chemical, Biological and Radiological Warfare classes were fun. Scary, but fun.

I want a giant sink full of nerve disease for Christmas, but I bet all I'll get will be gift cards.

"The Dread Ion Borate" ha a ring to it.

If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

Over the last few days, I have been trading comments with Anthony Samsel on the subject of glyphosate in vaccines. A truly delusional person who sees nothing unethical in making claims and spreading fear without the data to back it up. Of course, he says he has the data, its just not published yet.
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/gct2m0qds1fx0md/Samsel%2020161221.jpg?dl=0[/i…]

doug @ 7

Beat me to it on the saline drip: I must be some kinda superhuman or just immune 'cos I didn't get killed to death by saline drips which those ebil medics had me on one time. And nor did The Strange Woman I Live With...

And with the coffee: this household will keep up its sterling work on your behalf, nobly putting ourselves at any potential risk to demonstrate that coffee is definitely safe to drink. You can thank me later.

Orac writes,

Sodium chloride?

MJD says,

Let's ask a few questions:

1) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein therein?

2) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein-contaminant therein?

3) Can a denatured protein-contaminant in a vaccine provide increased antigenic determinants?

4) Can an antigenic determinant in a protein-contaminated vaccine cause a contraindication?

The answer to all of these questions is an unequivocal "YES"

Therefore, all efforts should be made to manufacture vaccines free of certain allergens that we have discussed in great detail. :-(

Why is the answer to those questions, "yes?"

Mephistopheles @14 -- Well, the glass of water breaks the salt down into Na+ and Cl-, actually. I'm no chemist, but my understanding is that as neutral atoms, they're pretty nasty.

Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

This is where the distinction between the ions Na+ and Cl-, as opposed to elemental Na and Cl_2, becomes important. The latter are quite dangerous. Cl_2 is highly toxic. The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don't know this from firsthand experience, but it's likely I know someone who does).

Luckily, it is quite difficult to convert the ionic forms to the elemental forms, since they have the same electron structure as the neighboring noble gases (Ne and Ar). The opposite direction is quite easy to achieve, which is why the elemental forms are so reactive.

Lawrence asks (#17),

Why is the answer to those questions, “yes?” (see post #16)

MJD says,

Even if the answer was "maybe" vaccine safety may be unequivocally compromised.

Yet you provide nothing to support either contention....

Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

Orac:
"There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock,..."

Go to:
https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html
Select HPV4, anaphylactic reaction, anaphylactic shock, female and it return 60 cases.

You really don't understand what VAERS reports are, do you?

Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

Like with dental floss, Vinu? You've got to stay on that travesty.

@#16 MJD -
You tell us.

Human blood has a normal sodium concentration of ~140 meq/L
I'll let you calculate the concentration of NaCl in blood and compare it to the concentration in the vaccine.
Suffice to say the NaCl content of 0.50 ml of each solution is:
Blood - 4091 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.
Vaccine - 10 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.

I think the body can equalize the low NaCl concentration in the 0.50 ml vaccine without any systemic damage.
It may take a few seconds, but it will happen.
No "denatured" proteins or "increased antigenic determinants" or epigenetic mutations or bursting cells for your fantasy.

Lawrence writes (#21),

Yet you provide nothing to support either contention….

MJD says,

Is there anyone else who doesn't believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?

@Orac,

Speak or forever hold your piece.

Lawrence #23,

"You really don’t understand what VAERS reports are, do you?"

Why don't you please explain it to us?

Re VAERS reports - here is a helpful primer from our friend Todd. http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/11/vaers-few-things-we-need-to-di…

Basically, VAERS reports don't show causation.

Doctors are very imaginative in dismissing vaccine adverse events. But anaphylaxis proves to be tough one.

Anaphylaxis is a Type I immediate hypersensitivity reaction that could happen within minutes of allergen exposure.
A healthy kid walks in, gets a vaccine shot and immediately goes into anaphylaxis. What are you going to blame it on? What he ate for dinner 3 days ago?

A VAERS anaphylaxis report is extremely unlikely to be caused by anything other than the vaccine.

Dorit Reiss #3,
"difference between injection and ingestion"

As other have pointed out, for salt there is no difference.
But for proteins, it makes a huge difference.

https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-…

“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences and answers by the anaphylactic shock.”

Even the FDA is too stupid to understand this concept, from a hundred years ago.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSaf…

"Why are sugars, amino acids, and proteins added to some vaccines?
These substances may be added as stabilizers. They help protect the vaccine from adverse conditions such as the freeze-drying process, for those vaccines that are freeze dried. Stabilizers added to vaccines include: sugars such as sucrose and lactose, amino acids such as glycine or the monosodium salt of glutamic acid and proteins such as human serum albumin or gelatin. Sugars, amino acids and proteins are not unique to vaccines and are encountered in everyday life in the diet and are components that are in the body naturally."

So food protein contaminated vaccines are causing the food allergy epidemic.
http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-miscondu…

I understand that you think so. But the FDA disagrees, vaccine experts and immunologists disagree, and large scale studies found no link between vaccines and food allergies. I'm going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one.

"I’m going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one."

In a well controlled experiment, with just two patients, it was IMMEDIATELY clear that food proteins in the vaccine boosted allergy. This demonstrates that the epidemiological studies and the vaccine "surveillance systems" are a joke.

IgE levels were declining until just before vaccination and then spiked after the vaccines.
https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

@26 : At the risk of feeding a moron/troll. You were asked to provide any evidence for your assertions at 16, yet you do not. Then you tell Orac to put up or shut up? Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile. Choose one or the other only.

He'd have a fit if he knew Boric Acid was an essential part of running some nuclear reactors (PWRs) for its neutron absorbing characteristic.

@vinu #23:

Type in 'zombie' as the search term and it returns considerably more than 60 cases. Oh no! But that still doesn't tell us much that is useful.

Why don’t you please explain it to us?

Because most people here already know. Use the search box at the top right of the page and you too may join the enlightened...

Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

If Reality hasn't already set in - The medium for culture of mammalian cells used in vaccine virus production contain about 3000 micrograms per half millilitre of sodium chloride. Many vaccines are made up to be approximately isotonic with sodium chloride approaching a concentration of 4500 µg/0.5 mL.

Speak or forever hold your piece.

Lordy. Talk about asking for a close encounter with teh ban hammer ... or a poleaxe.

I see the other idiot is harping on the hundred year old paper again, ignoring the fact that there has been substantial much more recent research clearly demonstrating that small amounts of ingested proteins can be found in blood and even urine.

When you ingest proteins, you develop oral tolerance. So finding some ingested protein in the blood or urine does not change anything I am stating.
Our children are INJECTED with vaccines containing numerous food proteins, long BEFORE they have ANY chance to INGEST and develop tolerance. Once allergic, they cannot ingest and develop tolerance. Now with more vaccines contaminated with food proteins subsequently injected, they BOOST the food allergy.

https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

If he has to use a 100 year old paper to try to prove his contention, it explains a lot.

It *began* more than a 100 years ago. You can find the latest here:
http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-miscondu…

Here in my neck of the ( non) woods, 'nerve disease' would most likely refer to a bright blue cocktail served at hipster bars**.

** and yes, we have loads of hipster bars.

Speak or forever hold your piece.

But... we wouldn't want him to shoot his foot off with it during pre-op/scrubs. Anyways, Orac doesn't strike me as a second amendment kind of guy or cop.

AP@32: My only disagreement with your post is that the choices you offer are not mutually exclusive.

Anonymous Pseudonym writes (#32),

Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile

MJD says,

Do you have data or a reference to quantify the prevalence of "a vaccine damaged idiot"?

This may be the wrong insult to use if your one of Orac's minions.

@Dorit Reiss,(#31),

Do you solemnly (swear/affirm) that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, (so help you God)?.

Dorit Reiss #31,

"vaccine experts and immunologists disagree"

Sorry, that is not correct.

Please see:
https://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vacci…

“Adverse events on our list thought to be due to IgE-mediated
hypersensitivity reactions

Antigens in the vaccines that the committee is charged with reviewing do not typically elicit an immediate hypersensitivity reaction (e.g., hepatitis B surface antigen, toxoids, gelatin, ovalbumin, casamino acids).
However, as will be discussed in subsequent chapters, the
above-mentioned antigens do occasionally induce IgE-mediated sensitization in some individuals and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions, including anaphylaxis.”

@Orac,

Speak or forever hold your piece.

This is why you should try to find a pay-to-play journal that actually includes copy editing in its APC, MJD. The only one who clearly has his "piece" consistently in hand is to be found in your nearest mirror.

Dorit Reiss #31,
"vaccine experts and immunologists disagree"

Who are these vaccine experts and immunologists?
Are they the same people who are clueless about why Flumist worked one year and failed miserably another year?

I have an explanation of why Flumist failed and it has to do with vaccines causing food allergy.

Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine
http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm

When you receive Flumist the first time, you develop IgG (short term, primary protection against the flu) and IgE (long term allergy) to the influenza proteins.
When you receive subsequent Flumist, you suffer a mild allergic reaction. Your IgE antibodies bind to the viruses and neutralizes them before they can infect you. So you don't develop new IgG. Vaccine is ineffective. A CDC researcher thanked me for connecting food allergy and vaccine ineffectiveness and bringing it to their attention.

@Narad (44),

I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

https://bioaccent.org/cancer-sciences/cancer-sciences25.pdf

We live and learn...

Thanks, though, for remembering the review.

@Orac,

I'm just adding clarity to Narad's constructive criticism and this is not an attempt to over step my boundaries.

Talking about toxins ...

Food protein contaminated vaccines cause the development of food allergy. So, they turn food into a toxin for some people.

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-miscondu…

Now that vaccines have turned food into a toxin, the National Academy of Medicine is suggesting that we apply "methodologies of chemical toxicology" to food. The next time you order a burger, they will ask you if you want a Material Safety Data Sheet to go with it.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-alle…

Pg. 295

"The FDA has used risk assessment principles of increasing sophistication for many years. Although the appropriateness of using these concepts in the setting of allergenic foods was questionable in the past, improved understanding of the mechanism for allergic reactions to food, together with
emerging data from individuals with food allergy has led to the realization that the classical principles, terminology, and methodologies of chemical toxicology risk assessment can be applied to food allergens."

For the Food and Drug Administration, approving drugs that turn food into a toxin, must be a crowning achievement.

Why did Orac leave these toxins out of the discussion?

Speak or forever hold your piece.

Are you sure you want Orac to do that? Michigan has a stand-your-ground law.

Vinu @4: Uh, or you could be describing the well-documented phenomenon of original antigenic sin, where immunity specific to epitopes shared across multiple immunizations (vaccination or natural) is favored over novel epitopes, narrowing the immune response rather than broadening it. There's an excellent explanation (with figure!) on page 453 of the 7th edition of Janeway's Immunobiology.

Which has everything to do with how the immune system works and as is it based on T-cells, is not related to food allergy.

"original antigenic sin"

Given that, does it make any sense to inject yeast (HepB vaccine) the day a baby is born? And then continue to inject HepB and yeast contaminated Prevnar 13 several times after that?

"Vinu @4" not sure what that refers. Comment numbers don't seem reliable.
If you are talking about Flumist and the original antigenic sin, Flumist should have always been ineffective. Why would it work one year and fail the following years?

Vinu @31: The statement "“We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices." rather totally fails to take into account the all the other ways things get into the body beyond the digestive system.
What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don't die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it.
And what about every injury to the skin that results in bleeding? Blood comes out and stuff, including proteins, goes in. What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock.
And then if we even only consider human-caused insertion of material that bypasses the digestive system and goes into the bloodstream, what about the ancient practice of tattoo?

Let's try to be a little more restrained in our sweeping generalizations.

"What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don’t die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it."

Dose makes the difference. If too many of those bacteria are released into the blood, you have septic shock, very similar to anaphylactic shock.

Normal natural infection with those same bacteria, involve quantities of bacteria that do not cause anaphylaxis. Obviously, we have evolved to make that immune balance work.

@42: Your posts in this thread give almost equal credence to either option. Positive evidence lies in your lack of evidence backed by solid assertions. As is the solid science referenced by the others in this thread showing the stupidity of your argument. But keep avoiding answering the question, that way the default is my choice of appellation most suited to you.

It's a shame that people think their ignorance and misinformation is the equal of scientific knowledge. This is why we can't have nice things.

vinu @38: So, what vaccine administered before 6 months (the usual age to begin eating solid food) contains strawberry proteins? Or shellfish proteins?

Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

Dammit, there goes my "Oral vaccine administered as an artisanal fermented-milk-product" business plan.

JustaTech #54

Nobody knows what are all the food proteins that contaminate vaccines.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-alle…
NAM report pg.241
"Allergens in Vaccines, Medications, and Dietary Supplements

Physicians and patients with food allergy must consider potential food allergen exposures in vaccines, medications, and dietary supplement products (e.g., vitamins, probiotics), which are not regulated by labelling laws.
Also, excipients (i.e., substances added to medications to improve various characteristics) may be food or derived from foods (Kelso, 2014). These include milk proteins; soy derivatives; oils from sesame, peanut, fish or soy; and beef or fish gelatin. The medications involved include vaccines;
anesthetics; and oral, topical, and injected medications. With perhaps the exception of gelatin, reactions appear to be rare overall, likely because little residual protein is included in the final preparation of these items. The specific risk for each medication is not known.
Vaccines also may contain food allergens, such as egg protein or gelatin."

JustaTech #54,
And you have to consider cross reactions ...

Significant protein sequence alignment between peanut allergen epitopes and vaccine antigens
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310021910_Significant_protein_…

Vaccines do not contain peanuts or peanut oil....jeez, will this just die!

How do you know?

A little off topic - I am just back from the dentist where I had a local anesthetic. I am sure if I asked to look at the packaging insert I would be horrified to see what ingredients that are in the injectable vaccine are also in the local anesthetic. What do the ant-vaxers do when they need a local anesthetic? How do they rationalize that?

Vaccines being injected numerous times, especially into babies, are on the top of the list. Local anesthetics should be cleaned up as well.

what problems are local anesthetics causing?

They don't - they ignore anything that doesn't fit into their anti-vax narrative.

That is what I assumed .... I don't see many people waking up after a general anesthetic with the autisimz

"What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock."

Again dose makes the poison.
Food proteins are injected with aluminum salts as adjuvants. Aluminum salts are known to bias towards allergy. These food protein injections are repeated numerous times. Then we have exposures that are in food quantities which are way more than mosquito bite quantities.

Vinu @52: "Original Antigenic sin" only occurs with repeated exposure to similar but slightly different sets of antigens, as one sees in the various strains of flu that circulate year-to-year. Therefore the vaccine works fine the first time, and it works fine the second time too, but rather than conditioning the immune system to new antigens from the new flu strain it reinforces the antigens that are the same as last year's strain.

I'll again highly recommend Janeway's Immunobiology as an excellent textbook.

More evidence supporting my Flumist failure explanation.

Menactra has N meningitidis antigens conjugated to diphtheria toxoid (DT). So a diphtheria vaccine administered a month ahead of Menactra, interferes.

The diphtheria antibodies neutralize the DT, affecting immunogenicity of Menactra.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr…

"Administraton of Menactra one month after DAPTACEL has
4 been shown to reduce meningococcal antibody responses to Menactra. "

"In a double-blind, randomized, controlled trial, 1021 participants aged 11 through 17 years received Td vaccine and Menactra concomitantly (N=509), or Td vaccine followed one month later by Menactra (N=512). Sera were obtained approximately 28 days after each respective vaccination. The proportions of participants with a 4-fold or greater increase in SBA-BR titer to meningococcal Serogroups C, Y and W-135 were higher when Menactra was given concomitantly with Td vaccine (86%-96%) than when Menactra was given one month following Td vaccine (65%-91%). "

Vinu @65: Prove it. Show me how much mosquito anticoagulant is regurgitated into the bloodstream per bite, and the average number of bites per person per season, and then compare that to the current US childhood immunization schedule for a single year (to compare to the single season of bites).

Yes, the dose makes the poison. But while I may have had 30 vaccinations by the time I was 18 I'd also had probably a million mosquito bites. So, math up.

First, mosquito bites do not contain aluminum salts optimized to produce a strong immune response.

Second, you should account for the ELICITATION dose.

Then there is the matter of evolution. You have evolved through being bitten repeatedly by mosquitoes. If mosquitoes had injected egg proteins into mammals, throughout evolution, it would probably be safe to inject them using vaccines as well.

A great example is bee stings. You don't suffer too many bee stings in nature.
If you become a beekeeper (evolution did not plan that), you get into trouble.
Repeated bee stings (injecting bee venom proteins) causes IgE mediated sensitization to the bee venom proteins and the development of IgE mediated allergy to bee venom.
Eich-Wanger C, Muller UR. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clin Exp Allergy. 1998;28(10):1292–8.

An important consequence is that mosquito saliva protein is a good injectable protein for a vaccine, if you can manage to grow a bacteria in it.

That's really not how this works - you need to provide proof that they do.

Great point about mosquito bites - at times, kids can get bitten dozens of times within a very short period of time....

If this was not about a life-threatening condition, it would be hilarious.

http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/…

"Review started on certain injectable medicines to treat allergic reactions

The PRAC started a review of certain medicines given by injection to treat severe, rapidly developing (acute) allergic reactions. The medicines involved contain the corticosteroid methylprednisolone as active ingredient. They also include as an additional ingredient lactose (milk sugar), which potentially contains traces of cows’ milk proteins that could affect treatment of acute reactions in the small number of
highly sensitive patients allergic to these proteins.

The review is triggered by reports of reactions to the medicines themselves in patients being treated for allergic conditions with these medicines who were also allergic to cows’ milk proteins."

"The review is triggered by reports of patients treated for allergic conditions with these medicines, who were also allergic to cows' milk proteins. The medicine itself apparently caused an allergic reaction in these patients. In such circumstances, the reaction to the medicine may
be mistaken for a worsening of the original condition, leading to additional doses of the medicine being given," the EMA writes in a statement.

First they give our kids life-threatening food allergies with dirty food protein contaminated vaccines. Then when they suffer an allergic reaction, the dirty allergy medication they use is contaminated with more food proteins that make the reaction worse?
The truth can certainly be stranger than fiction ...

Time to reboot.

Eric Lund -

The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don’t know this from firsthand experience, but it’s likely I know someone who does).

I've seen the demo many times, and it's quite nice. You can look one up on YouTube in the Periodic Table of Videos channel.

I recall someone who attended a small engineering college you may be familiar with who took some metallic sodium - in his hand - to the banks of the river in order to impress a girl. Everything went OK until the oil which separated the sodium from his body moisture, er, stopped separating them.

@ Lawrence

Careful mate, mosquito bites could herald the prevalence of Lawyers and Vampires...

Oooh, I see. Now the claim is that all food allergies are caused by vaccines. That's a bizarre interpretation of the hygiene hypothesis.
Also pretty strongly lacking in evidence. Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination? Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine? If it is all vaccines why didn't everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?
And again, what about tattoos? The history of tattooing goes back thousands of years across diverse cultures all over the world. So why would vaccines cause allergies and tattoos not?

Not sure if this was addressed to me ...

"Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination?"
They were rare.

"Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine?"
All food protein contaminated vaccines AND all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins.

"If it is all vaccines why didn’t everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?"
No one is claiming that vaccines cause clinical allergy in EVERYONE who receives the vaccine. I have not studied the smallpox vaccine or its contaminants.

I am not familiar with the proteins involved in tattoos.

Jay, but vampires would be super helpful because they would have lived before vaccines and could tell the antivaxxers all about the epidemics!

MJD: "Is there anyone else who doesn’t believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?"

Is there anybody commenting on this thread that doesn't have salt and protein bumping in to each other in an aqueous medium? You really didn't think that one through did you?

MJD have you ever wondered that maybe Orac keeps you around for the damage you cause to your own side?

All the way back to the original post - while I personally am thrilled at how the price of recombinate HSA (human serum albumin) has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff, to imply that no one screens it for viruses like HIV is ludicrous. (Also, this Wells is a terrible writer.)

Justatech, who are you fooling with these epidemic hoaxes? Everyone knows there where no epidemics, because everyone in the past ate organic and there were no toxins or GMOs.

Heck there was no reason for vaccines, so they were invented to cause diseases, so doctors could make a living, FACT!

Damn, have to go to bed, just when I was starting to have fun.

Actually last but not least, Vinu, why not do some research and come up with a graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?

Start with Smallpox and the resulting beef allergies ;)

This is where the Skeptic's Dictionary comes in handy.

fact
1. fact, n. A true statement about the world.
2. FACT! n. Not a fact

vinu
1. vinu, n. See FACT!

Jay: Exactly! And all those children loved working in the cotton mills and coal mines! They were happy working 14 hours a day and getting squashed to death before they turned 18!
The London fogs of the 1950's were a cause for celebration!

"has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff"

True, it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people's concerns.

"it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people’s concerns."

No, they don't. Dr.Offit said so.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/paul-offit-a-choice-not-to-ge…
"Yeah. I think there are a couple things. The influenza vaccine and the yellow fever vaccine are both made in eggs; therefore they contain small quantities or residual quantities of egg proteins. About a half a percent of the population is allergic to eggs, including severe allergies, including things such as bad hives and shock, and those people can’t get influenza vaccine. Well, there’s no reason you can’t grow influenza vaccine in mammalian cells, meaning non-avian cells. That can be done. The technology has been available to do that for decades, but there’s been little interest in doing that. It cries out for, in many ways, consumer activism.

Similarly, there’s a stabilizing agent that’s used in the chicken pox vaccine called gelatin. It allows the vaccine virus to be distributed equally throughout the vial. The question is, are there other stabilizing agents that you could use, that aren’t gelatin, that could accomplish the same thing? Absolutely. But again there’s [been] very little pressure, I think, to do that, even though it’s probably the most common allergenic material in vaccines."

vinu @79: " all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins"
If bacterial proteins can cross react with food proteins then wouldn't people also develop food allergies from being exposed to those specific bacteria?

Yes, the H1N1 virus naturally caused narcolepsy.
The Pandemrix vaccine also caused narcolepsy.

The key is route of exposure. Bacterial proteins are not usually injected along with aluminum salts as is the case with vaccines.
Also, once you are old enough to eat foods, you develop oral tolerance to those proteins. So bacterial infection after that are less likely to cause the development of allergy to those same proteins.

When we read things we take to be "ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoopish" etc. I think it's a drastic mistake to conisder the people writing them to be ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops. This leads to the idea that if they only had been or could be educated to the facts of 'reality' they'd be somehow cured and everything would be OK. "Delusional" is closer, but still too-much sounding like asylum-crazy to fit how these notions get by in the everyday world of otherwise functional and mostly sane individuals. That is, I'd guess most of S.D. Wells readers get up, get dressed, make breakfast, drive to work, do their jobs, and find their way back home without mistaking the toaster or other cars on the freeway for enslavement devices planted by the Red Lectroid invaders masquerading as their co-workers -- or anything else we'd consider a sign of being delusional in general. People seem to go off very specific deep ends in ways that are inconsistent with how they approach most things in life.

And my main point here is that these deep-but-narrow delusions are far more common and pointed at a much wider range of things than the particular variety of delusion in alt-med anti-vax etc. etc. Even Mikey Adams and Alex Jones, who offer up fairly eclectic delusional smorgasbords, don't come close to covering it all.

Last night Rachel Maddow covered some of recent politics in Michigan. She began with an automated unemployment insurance registration system that tagged 93% of applications as fraudlent, sent out robo-threats not just denying claims but levying completely inappropriate fines. Which many frightened unemployed people went further into debt to pay lest the face jail time, resulting in the balance in the State unemployment contingency fund rising from $3.1 million dollars to $155 million dollars. Of which the State has payed back only $5 million, with the legislature just having passed a measure to transfer t$10 million out of the fund to balance the state budget.

Next she reviewed the Flint water crisis, which resulted from decisions made by the Emergency Manager of Flint around the same time the automated unemployment bandit went online. As you probably know the EM swiitched Flint's water supply from the clean water of Lake Huron to the polluted water of the Flint river, just pumping it straight into the pipes without proper treatment. The first result was 12 deaths from Legionaire's disease, followed by the resulting corrosion of the pipes creating lead poisoning in massive chunks of the city's population. This was back in news yesterday, because that now-former Flint EM and his also now-former successor and two of their public works appointees have been charged with multiple felonies by the State Attorney General.

Meanwhile, the city is still getting it's water from the Flint river, virtually nothing has been done to fix the pipes, and the residents are not receiving the bottled water they need. The editor of The Flint Journal told Maddow:

The State has fought efforts to deliver that water; they just went to court to try to get out of that responsibility. You have these charges today where the State is being told they were putting money in front of people's lives, and yet they're still fighting tooth and nail to avoid doing even the most base responsibility.

I note this hear because neither Maddow nor anyone she interviewed from Flint can come to grips with how anyone could do this,. And after Maddow reports other news of the day from Washington, equally outre if not more so, she winds up speechless, just staring at the camera for several moments before recapturing her poise and continuing.

Why? How? The AG speaks of ""a fixation with finances and balance sheets ... It's all about numbers over people, money over health." But I don't think anyone imagines that this is a satisfactory. Why? How? could they do that?

But wait, there's more! Maddow didn't mention this:

Governor Rick Snyder has increased his legal defense budget for one of his private attorneys to $3.5 million. Snyder hired Warner, Norcross & Judd LLP last spring to represent him in the investigations into the Flint water crisis. The contract for their firm at the time was for $249,000. Over time, that cap rose to $2 million before its most recent increase... The money comes from taxpayer dollars – an issue that in the past caused a Flint resident to ask for a grand jury to look into the legality of the use. That case was not accepted by the court.

Or this:

Late on Friday afternoon Utah Republican Jason Chaffetz, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, sent a pair of letters announcing the end of his investigation [into the Flint water crisis]. His letters offered no new information and essentially summarized what had already revealed about the crisis during several high-profile hearings earlier this year. The top Democrat on the Committee, Maryland’s Elijah Cummings refused to sign Chaffetz’s letters closing the Flint investigation. Cummings argued that Snyder had obstructed the investigation by not providing key documents that would explain when he learned about the severity of the crisis. With congressional Republicans concluding that oversight is no longer needed, Snyder is unlikely to release those documents.

Shall we call Rick Snyder, his Emergency Manager appointees, all the GOP legislators in Michigan, and everyone who voted for them after the deaths and poisoning in Flint hit the news 'ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops'? When this is but a drop in the bucket of 'delusion' among the people running the country and the world, how can we be surprised at the 'delusions' of S. D. Wells or his readers at NN?

I struggle to think of any explanation for all this. This is the best I can up with at the moment: In a sane world, the news from Flint would force us all to stop whatever else we may be doing, pay attention, and adopt some sort of response to it in whatever we think and do going forward. But that's too high a burden. The lower-third on the tube reads "President Elect Donald Trump" and we just keep on keeping on. The PEOTUS appoints an NSA director who Tweets Hillary Clinton and John Podesta are running a child sex-slave ring, and another high official at the same spy agency who claimed Barack Obama isn't Black, but an Arab feigning Blackness to make false claims of victimhood. (Yes,you read that right, as the assumption would be that Muslims aren't the victims of unjust discrimination in the US.) Do we stop and digest that, or just follow the news feed along to the next Trump-Tweet about his meeting with Kanye West, or the announcement that a duet between Taylor Swift and Zayn Malik will be featured in the soundtrack of "Fifty Shades Darker"?

The one comment on Wells that rang true for me was from Prof. Reiss, "The real problem is that most readers want to believe this." My thoughts, then, are:
1. That this is not at all limited to the alt-med groupies at NN, but more of a pandemic touching otherwise 'normal' people on a whole host of issues.
2. That it's less wanting to believe than needing to believe, for the purpose of reconciling the craziness of life with the need to plug ahead in mundane everyday activities and a mindset that 'works' for that maintenance.
3. That whether we call it desire or need the drive to believe is so strong that 'believing makes it so" is as common as dirt.
4. Just because we can identify and scoff at some varieties of "believing makes it so" doesn't mean we're immune from all of it, or from simply tuning out, or otherwise not-dealing with certain pressing realities.

Finally, in thinking about all this as a sky filled with magic carpets, I was reminded of my old political economy professor (Vincent Mosco) who said of Reagan's 'Star Wars' that the question wasn't 'Will it work?' but 'What work will it do?' Magic carpets, by definition, don't work as claimed. But they are, in fact, doing an awful lot of very real, very material work, yes?

vinu@88: With all respect to Dr Offit, transitioning a pharmaceutical manufacturing system from avian to mammalian cells is not at all trivial, would probably take a decade, and would be pretty darn expensive. Given that its unlikely that the price of the vaccine would make up for the cost of the transition (which would most likely also require clinical trials to prove that the vaccine is the same out of mammalian cells as it is out of chicken eggs), there is very little incentive for the companies to do this.

As for gelatin, all I can say is that any change in formulation requires mountains of data to the FDA, and occasionally a clinical trial. These are not simple, easy or quick changes to make.

We were warned more than a hundred years ago, against injecting proteins. So there has been plenty of time to fix it. First you have to ACKNOWLEDGE that the problem exists. Then we can find the best way to fix it.

The Japanese discovered that their gelatin contaminated vaccines were causing the development of gelatin allergy.
They ACKNOWLEDGED that gelatin contaminated vaccines were the problem and REMOVED gelatin from their vaccines to solve the problem.
Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624794

vinu @90 "Yes, the H1N1 virus naturally caused narcolepsy.
The Pandemrix vaccine also caused narcolepsy."
This has nothing to do with bacteria.

Going back to food allergies, how many vaccines against bacteria are given before the age of 6 months? (6 months is the usual age for American children to start solids.)

Plenty. Hib, Prevnar 13, DTap, 3 of each.

Sadmar, with kindness - your comment has nothing to do with the original post or the discussion at hand (excepting the shoe-horned introduction). Have you considered getting your own blog?
Or at least posting this back on one of the old lead posts?

Vinu @93: So you never want anyone to ever inject any protein ever again?
So you've just condemmed all the young and not-yet-born to a life filled with communicable diseases.
And you've killed every insulin-dependent diabetic in the world.
And you've stopped every fertility treatment and all hormonal treatments.
Oh, *and* you've just eliminated life saving treatment for everyone who suffers from an allergy. (Epipens are an injection.)

I get it. You're afraid of needles, so you've invented the idea that injecting proteins causes food allergies, even though you have provided no evidence of a higher incidence of food allergies during post-approval monitoring, (also called Phase 4 trials), which are required of all vaccines.

And because of your fear you would demand that the world give up a huge number of life-saving treatments.

No.

First,

https://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/evidence-that-food-proteins-in-vacc…

"O’Brien et al. [13] measured 7.4 mcg/ml of ovalbumin in
influenza vaccines in 1967. Goldis et al. [14] measured as much as 38.3 mcg/ml in influenza vaccines as recently as 2008."

What does that mean? It means food protein contaminated vaccines causing food allergy is a PREVENTABLE HARM.

Second,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644270
"A major challenge, however, is the choice of target antigens. If an engineered TCR can cross-react with self-antigens in healthy tissue, the side-effects can be devastating. We present the first web server for assessing epitope sharing when designing new potential lead targets. "

Same problem for vaccines. Vaccine makers must do their homework and avoid cross reacting epitopes. Self or food antigens.

"you’ve invented the idea that injecting proteins causes food allergies,"

No, credit for that goes to Nobel Laureate Charles Richet.

" even though you have provided no evidence of a higher incidence of food allergies during post-approval monitoring, (also called Phase 4 trials), which are required of all vaccines."

Food allergy development takes a few weeks after vaccination. Solicited adverse events in vaccine trials DO NOT include food protein sensitization. If you refuse to look for it, you won't find it.

As I wrote before, in a well controlled experiment with just two patients, it was IMMEDIATELY obvious that food protein contaminated vaccines boosted food allergy to those contaminants.

http://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5225/rr-0

insulin is already circulating in your body.
Epinephrine is not a protein.
So it is ok to inject both as long as the injection is not contaminated with other proteins.

I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

Next time, offer to send, say, another $200, and see if they answer then.

A great example is bee stings. You don’t suffer too many bee stings in nature.
If you become a beekeeper (evolution did not plan that), you get into trouble.
Repeated bee stings (injecting bee venom proteins) causes IgE mediated sensitization to the bee venom proteins and the development of IgE mediated allergy to bee venom.
Eich-Wanger C, Muller UR. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clin Exp Allergy. 1998;28(10):1292–8.

And yet, according to
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bee-stings/diagnosis-trea…
(bolding mine)

Bee and other insect stings are a common cause of anaphylaxis. If you've had a serious reaction to a bee sting or multiple stings, your doctor likely will refer you to an allergist for allergy testing and consideration of allergy shots (immunotherapy). These shots, generally given regularly for a few years, can reduce or eliminate your allergic response to bee venom.

Immunotherapy involves injecting small doses of allergen that are not enough to cause a reaction. The effect is your body creates IgG4 against the antigens. This has the effect of inducing a type of tolerance.

For foods, such igG4 mediated tolerance changes your disease from IgE mediated allergy to GI problems such as eosinophilic esophagitis.

So, prevention of IgE mediated allergy by cleaning up our vaccines is better than an immunotherapy based "cure".

Continuing - hit submit too soon

It sounds like large amounts may cause allergies, but small amounts might cure them.

I know what you're gonna say. Aluminum makes the near homeopathic dose of 'food protein' trigger the allergic response. Fine. As posted by Jay, come up with a graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?

"graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?"

No graph, but pretty close:
http://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5225/rr-0

MJD:
I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

I am genuinely sympathetic. I disagree with most of MJD's ideas, but it grieves me to see money going to scammers like the Bio-Accent mooks.

@ JustaTech #96

With kindness: Just because you didn't draw the connection – the last six paragraphs, excluding the block quotes – doesn't mean it's not there. Honestly, I think it's one of my more on-topic comments, and I wouldn't have wanted to post it anywhere else.

#91 is a long comment for RI, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a lot of folks just drop out of it in the middle of the Flint stuff. But if they do get to the bottom, I think it's reasonably clear that the comment isn't about Flint. It's about how we do or don't think about the belief that led to the Flint crisis can put some perspective on how we think about S.D. Wells, especially "the real problem is that most readers want to believe this." I take that 'want' as so puzzling we can't really explain it – just calling it 'stupid' etc. being no explanation at all. I could have been more clear, maybe, but what happened in Flint seems to be an even more extreme bizarre and puzzling case of "believing makes it so". They believed they could switch the water supply from Lake Huron to the Flint river and it would somehow be OK, and they apparently still believe that if they deny there's any problem, there isn't any problem, or the problem will go away, or something like that.

Segue to people whose need to believe everything will be OK just channel surfs by the announcements that Mike Flynn and Monica Crowley will be running the agency "responsible for global monitoring, collection, and processing of information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes" for the most powerful nation in the world. Yesterday Flynn met with the leader of Austria's Freedom Party, which you might call neo-nazi except for the fact it's first leader was an actual Nazi, having been an officer in the SS and Minister of Agriculture under the Third Reich. What? Me worry? No problemo.

My point JustaTech, is that the belief that childhood vaccines represent "the worst odds you or your children have of being infected with disease, disorder, and deformity" because they're filled with "neurotoxins, genetically modified bacteria, live experimental strains of multiple viruses and pesticides" is among the least WTF beliefs circulating these days when you account for the number of believers, and the social influence they exert. Which leads me to speculate that the specifics of this strain of anti-vax are less of a factor in its circulation than some larger over-arching condition both feeding all sorts of weird-belief phenomena on the one hand, and a sort of irrelevance of any belief on the other. Which would be what we need to address if we wanted to push back on the Wellses, Adames, and Joneses.

I hope that explains it some... It's the best I can do at the moment.

As with all web comments, YMMV, and different readers will find different ones useful or useless. I'll take the fact Orac doesn't moderate as partly motivated by wanting to maximize the chances that someone will find some thing of interest in the thread, not maximizing comments that most readers will appreciate. Anyway, that's the spirit in which I (humbly, fwiw) make comments in these threads I don't expect any number of readers to find them valuable. I'm just leaving them here in the chance at least one person, one day, might find them worthwhile.

Cheers.

No graph, but pretty close:

Close in the same way that GN-z11 is close to my house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GN-z11

What you have linked to is a response you wrote, asserting again, without evidence, your idea that injections regularly cause food allergies, to an article that has the word allergy or something like it 9 times, 7 of which are in the references as the title of articles or the name of a journal. The 2 uses in the body of the article is in the sentence "Two studies reported cytokine production to mitogens after tetanus toxoid vaccination. After PHA stimulation, increases in IFN-γ and IL-13 were noted in participants with non-allergic rhinitis compared with allergic rhinitis."

Nothing about vaccinations *causing* allergies.

Please read my response. NOT THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.

...but it grieves me to see money going to scammers like the Bio-Accent mooks.

I disagree with the word "scammers", Herr Doktor.

BAOJ promises to post your content on their site if you send them money. MJD sent money, they posted his content. Sure, they might have exagerated the prestige of their web site, but they provided the (overpriced) service they promised, and, base on the submission and publication dates, they were also prompt.

Could we agree on 'predators'?

The human immune system is probably one of world's best protein detectors ...

https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

"Case 1: At 8 months-old, her serum IgE values (in IU/mL) were total 61.4, peanut 13.6, almond 4.04, milk 3.84, egg 2.01, soy 1.6, and wheat 0.98, compared to total 44.1, peanut 11.2, almond 1.54, milk 2, egg 1.71, soy 1.62, and wheat 2.2 at 12 months-old. After the 12 month-old labs were drawn, she received the vaccines Prevnar13, hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella. 3 weeks later, at 12.7 months-old, her IgE values were total 75.6, peanut 16.5, almond 2.18, milk 5.06, egg 3.4, soy 3.64, and wheat 3.75."

Let's review peanut IgE. One or more of these vaccines (Prevnar13, hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella) could have contributed to the increase in peanut IgE. However, the patient already was sensitized at 8 months. Since hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella are only administered starting at 12 months, the sensitization was most likely due to Prevnar 13. Per the CDC vaccine schedule, by 8 months, the patient likely already received 3 shots of Prevnar 13. The Prevnar 13 at 12 months boosted the peanut IgE levels already induced by the previous 3 shots.

2. Parent Jeff below also reports development of peanut allergy in a 14 month-old following administration of Prevnar 13.

3. A quick search of VAERS shows at least one similar case, VAERS ID: 413656-1.

"Onset of apparent peanut allergy with rash on 3rd exposure to peanuts 15 days after receiving vaccines."

Vaccines received Pentacel, MMR II, Prevnar 13. 15 month old patient.

Prevnar 13 vaccine package insert:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr…

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/whats-really-behind-peanut-allergy-ep…
New comment on The Thinking Moms' Revolution

Jeff commented on How to Cause a Peanut Allergy Epidemic in 4 Easy Steps.

in response to ThinkingMomsRevolution:

(This originally ran February 27, 2014. As the second edition of Heather Fraser’s book is now out, it seemed a great time to revisit this blog in the hopes that we can reach even more people. — Editor) At some point in 2010 I saw a simple website, where the margins of the text were […]

My 14 month-old son received Varicella, MMR, Prevnar 13, Fluzone and Vaqta (Hep A) last week. Five days later (over the weekend) he developed an allergic reaction to peanut butter, which he’s eaten more than 20 times. The doctor told me it was a coincidence, which I found insulting so I asked for the NDC’s of what was given. Is there anything I can do? As a parent, the doctor decides these vaccines (what to buy and from who) and the schedule they are administered. The timing is too precise to be a coincidence. Could the hypersensitivity to peanuts be temporary (wishful thinking)?

Reply Comments

@ vinu #100 who said:

"insulin is already circulating in your body.
Epinephrine is not a protein.
So it is ok to inject both as long as the injection is not contaminated with other proteins."

OK, you've just managed to contradict yourself twice, and demonstrate you haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

1) Insulin is indeed already circulating in your system, but it is not a protein. It is a peptide hormone. Just FYI, it's not a protein (although similar, they are not the same protein hormones).

2) Epinephrine is not a protein (you got that part right), and it is also a hormone. But it also is "already circulating" in your system, because it is produced by the adrenal gland.

3) What the heck does "contaminating it with other proteins" have to do with the price of tea in china?

If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern.

However, the patient already was sensitized at 8 months. Since hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella are only administered starting at 12 months, the sensitization was most likely due to Prevnar 13. Per the CDC vaccine schedule, by 8 months, the patient likely already received 3 shots of Prevnar 13. The Prevnar 13 at 12 months boosted the peanut IgE levels already induced by the previous 3 shots.

False.

Note the part in the methods section that says -

Case 1: At 5 months of age, the otherwise healthy girl tasted peanut butter and developed hives and facial swelling within 20 minutes. Total and food allergen-specific IgE values were measured by ImmunoCAP 250 at ages (months) 8, 12, 12.7.

So you have the case of a child that was already allergic to peanuts at 5 months, not 8, and would have had 2 doses if she was on schedule, not 3.

Did the 6 month and 12 month shots trigger any outward symptoms of an allergic reaction, or just some elevated lab results? It's not noted, and you can't say yes or no. I would think it would have been mentioned, but that's just me.

Case 2 is about the same - but different ages.

But, hey, it's evidence that people that are allergic will have allergic reactions. But as far as evidence that vaccines cause allergies, it's a long way off.

Yes, she was allergic to peanuts at 5 months, received another Prevnar 13 at 6 months and was still allergic at 8 months per her IgE numbers. I don't see what you are objecting to ...

Her IgE numbers DECLINED from 8 to 12 months. After she received the shots at 12 months, the IgE INCREASED.
Proof that the vaccines BOOSTED her food allergy.

I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

I would sympathise, but this was self-inflicted.

First,

https:// www.omicsgroup.org/journals/evidence-that-food-proteins-in-vaccines-cau…

Another vanity publication. You should share experiences of being fleeced by predatory publishers with Michael.

3 days for acceptance is not quite a record though. Michael managed it in just 1 day. That is what you get for submitting on a Saturday. Best to wait until Monday for your next pile of barf.

My publication was featured here:
Recent publications from the NIH Immunology Interest Group
https://list.nih.gov/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1511&L=immuni-l&F=&S=&P=49179
Evidence that Food Proteins in Vaccines Cause the Development of Food Allergies and Its Implications for Vaccine Policy.
Arumugham V J Develop Drugs 4: 137, 2015 doi:10.4172/2329-6631.1000137

Uh, or you could be describing the well-documented phenomenon of original antigenic sin

I doubt it. There's so much transparently wrong with Vinu's pathetic threadjacking idea that it's not even worth bothering with.

...received another Prevnar 13 at 6 months and was still allergic at 8 months...

Prevnar13 does not cure peanut allergies. Is that your complaint?

Proof that the vaccines BOOSTED her food allergy.

No. It's proof that she showed an allergic reaction, something that people who are allergic tend to do.

Just so you're clear, I object to you saying that her sensitization was due to 3 doses of Prevnar13, when she had at most 2 doses when her peanut allergy was found by feeding her peanut butter at 5 months. There is also no evidence she had any notable allergic symptoms from the Prevnar13 shot other than elevated lab results.

Again, this is far from proof that vaccines cause allergies.

" It’s proof that she showed an allergic reaction"

What reaction are you talking about? There is no mention of any reaction in that article.

"Just so you’re clear, I object to you saying that her sensitization was due to 3 doses of Prevnar13, when she had at most 2 doses when her peanut allergy was found by feeding her peanut butter at 5 months. There is also no evidence she had any notable allergic symptoms from the Prevnar13 shot other than elevated lab results."

An increase in allergic sensitization (IgE increase) will NOT HAVE "any notable allergic symptoms" other than the lab results.
The increased allergic symptoms will occur if she tried ingesting peanut butter again.

If she was sensitized by 2 doses of Prevnar 13 at 5 months, she was sensitized by 3 doses at 8 months. Not sure what your objection is?

Anti-insulin antibodies/insulin allergy ...

Injecting foreign protein/epitopes is a problem ...food or animal insulin ...

https://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopkins/view/Johns_Hopkins_Diabetes_Guide…
"Most common when patients are exposed to beef or pork insulin, rather than only to human or analog insulins [2]."

Dorit Reiss wrote:

Be nice and don’t deconstruct the ingredients in organic foods for them, or – unless they really believe as a tenant that the difference between injection and ingestion is the end-all, and they might, they will starve to death.

Not sure their rationalizations would be that logical. My local vaccine skeptic tends to believe that additives are always bad and naturally-occuring trace ingredients are always good - even if they're the same thing. Since vaccines are unnatural, everything in them is an additive.

He was opining the other day that taking flu shots was irrational, because vaccines are clearly more dangerous than the common cold.

Well that was interesting. I wonder how some of our allergy fiends would respond to the children who grow out of allergies? Or the adults who develop them long after they've stopped getting vaccines?
Hmmm?

You know what's really cool? You can take a blood draw from someone with a peanut allergy, drop some purified peanut protein into the blood and watch the eosinophils go *sprong!!*

"Or the adults who develop them long after they’ve stopped getting vaccines?"
The multi-billion dollar proton pump inhibitor market ...
The role of protein digestibility and antacids on food allergy outcomes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999748/

Well, vinu, I've been happily taking proton pump inhibitors for years, due to severe GERD. I've stopped digesting my teeth and pillow cases due to taking them.
Oddly, no allergies to foods have been acquired since I began taking those proton pump inhibitors.
Interestingly, acid is only one factor in digestion, enzymes are also present and those do a whiz bang job at digesting my food for me.

Nice to hear that. But as the study shows, not everybody is as lucky as you. And you probably know about the risks of stroke/dementia/osteoporosis/infection associated with long term PPI. Acid is important to absorb so many nutrients.

All of these toxins are so worrisome, a veritable threat to the species!
What we need is an organ, likely it'll have to be a rather large one. Perhaps, in the abdomen, where there'd be room for it. Maybe in the upper right quadrant.

I wonder what we'd call such a wonderful organ?

@MJD, you lost when you claimed that 10 mcg of NaCl in an aqueous solution could denature proteins. Were that true, distilled water would as well, as well as hypertonic saline and isotonic saline solutions.

@vinu, reactions that you're complaining of could as easily have been triggered by the ubiquitous usage of latex in medical environments, of which powdered latex gloves have just been banned by the FDA.

not sure which reactions you are linking to latex ...

Wzrd1: Shhhh! Don't say that word!

Over the last few days, I have been trading comments with Anthony Samsel on the subject of glyphosate in vaccines. A truly delusional person who sees nothing unethical in making claims and spreading fear without the data to back it up. Of course, he says he has the data, its just not published yet.

I originally thought that Samsel may have had some expertise given his claimed background and was just deluded about the extent of his expertise. However, it has become quite clear that he is just another run-of-the-mill crank.

Why was AAHS used as control?
"Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate [AAHS]-controlled"
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedPr…

Sadmar @108 - I find this and many of your comments (here and on Sci Med) helpful, interesting and sometimes challenging. Thank you.

@ Vinu "No graph, but pretty close:"

Not even slightly, way to totally dodge the issue, by spamming more of your BS.

In the Small Pox days, they were brewing up vaccines in COWS, then crudely filtering the MESS and INJECTING said concoction into lines of willing VICTIMS.

Now according to you, over the next months, there would have been mass outbreaks of beef allergy.

So WHERE'S THE BEEF?

Depends what proteins were involved and heat lability.
First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?
Second, I don't know how many doses were involved.
Third, it probably had no aluminum adjuvant that biases towards an allergic response?
As you know, many milk and egg allergic patients can tolerate baked products containing milk and egg.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9058683

Kateysays (#132),

Sadmar @108 – I find this and many of your comments (here and on Sci Med) helpful, interesting and sometimes challenging. Thank you.

MJD says,

I agree, Sadmar's comments are often a wonderful change of pace. A few times he has been more entertaining than Orac.

Johnny on the other hand is like thimerosal in a vaccine, Orac is the only one who wants more of him.

A lot of what people use including food Thaksin is for our body. I do not think that a small kolchesvto other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring the body of toxins as I posriasis. And I know how to do it and what they've got. In any case, this is my opinion. The article is very interesting thanks!

Someone has been peeking at my Christmas list. Earning a spot on MJD's enimies list was number 7.

serj fails the Turing test. Must be the toxins.

A lot of what people use including food Thaksin is for our body. I do not think that a small kolchesvto other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring the body of toxins as I posriasis. And I know how to do it and what they’ve got. In any case, this is my opinion. The article is very interesting thanks!

A lot of what people use for food, including eating the former prime misister of Thialand, is (bad) for our body. I do not think that a small ( kolchesvto kolichestvo==) amount (of) other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring rid the body of toxins as I (have) Psoriasis. http://www.icheapgrandtrade.ru/wholesale-gucci-shoes-c57.html The article is very interesting thanks!

"First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?"

If there was, I'd blow up like a hot air balloon after eating a Wendy's triple cheeseburger, and be waving to you from a few thousand feet overhead.

Simple logic.

How to make money by spreading fear-based propaganda in the form of medical falsehoods. Step 1. Get yourself a web site and make up shit that to the ignorant sounds sort of plausible. Take advantage of your ignorance in making stuff up. The scarier it sounds the better. Be very careful in citing references to the scientific literature. For example, if you want to gain page views and ad reveue from pushing the idea that vaccines cause allergies, avoid references that point to references of the fact that anyone can develop a food or other type of allergy at any time in life regardless of one type of vaccine and another. If you must cite references, find pseudoscientific ones that pass the sniff test. If the odor of bullshit is too weak, find another.

@Wzrd1 #127

participants who filled a prescription for a PPI at least once every three months were more than 40 percent more likely to develop dementia than their PPI-free counterparts...

PPIs reduce stomach acidity by dialing down the activity of an enzyme that shuttles charged ions through tiny gates—the so-called proton pumps—on the surface of cells lining the stomach. Experts posit that because at least some PPIs have been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier, they may have unanticipated effects on similar enzymes in the brain. Neural support cells called microglia rely on acid-containing organelles to degrade unwanted proteins; inhibiting acid production could impair the cells' ability to break up the protein tangles that are thought to be related to dementia...

Studies of PPI-treated mice have confirmed that their brains contain higher levels of beta-amyloid proteins. And Haenisch points out another, simpler connection: PPI use has been linked to lower vitamin B12 availability, which itself has been implicated in cognitive decline.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-popular-heartburn-meds-re…

Sodium bicarbonate works for me.

"Studies of PPI-treated mice have confirmed that their brains contain higher levels of beta-amyloid proteins."

Like many, many studies, mice are poor analogs for humans.
Likewise, the "40 percent greater risk" is a click bait claim, as the risk was low to begin with and the claimed 40 percent greater risk is still tiny.
Add in the already present risk of one in 14 people over 65 and one in six over 80, alcohol intake and assorted other factors, the claimed number shows as much noise as signal.
Meanwhile, I have severe tooth erosion, secondary to acid damage to my teeth, stained pillows from stomach contents being regurgitated in the middle of the night and Barrett's esophagus, I'll stick with my proton pump inhibitors.

@ Vinu

"Depends what proteins were involved and heat lability."

Rubbish. First you were talking about, "If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern."
Now they're "special" proteins. The early vaccines were massively contaminated with proteins, bacteria and all sorts.

"First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?"

Vinu, there have been food allergies for over 2000 years, you need to show it has increased after vaccination, burden of proof lies with you.

"Second, I don’t know how many doses were involved."

Erm you are bitching about vaccination and you don't know the history?

"Third, it probably had no aluminum adjuvant that biases towards an allergic response?"

"probably"? Of course not, adjuvants belong to a different century! You don't know your basic vaccine history and you dare claim expertise, shame on you!

"First you were talking about, “If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern.”"
You can still be sensitized to beef proteins. But if you eat cooked beef where the protein is modified, you won't suffer a reaction. So, you won't know that you have developed an allergy.

"food allergies for over 2000 years"
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(15)00584-9/abstract

"The reasons why peanut allergy has become more common might include (1) changes in vaccines, particularly the change from cellular to acellular pertussis; (2) excessive washing of the skin that could have increased penetration of the skin by peanut proteins; and (3) attempts to avoid oral peanut."

"don’t know the history"
I am primarily interested in the safety of CURRENT vaccines.
Please post package inserts of the old vaccine. I can only find current vaccines at the FDA site.

@Vinu
"You can still be sensitized to beef proteins. But if you eat cooked beef where the protein is modified, you won’t suffer a reaction. So, you won’t know that you have developed an allergy."

Just to be clear, are you saying that if somebody has a peanut allergy, cooked peanuts won't trigger a reaction?

"Just to be clear, are you saying that if somebody has a peanut allergy, cooked peanuts won’t trigger a reaction?"

No, peanut proteins are not modified by cooking.
However, many people who are allergic to milk/egg can tolerate baked milk/egg containing products without a reaction. Milk/egg proteins are modified by baking temperatures.

Dietary baked-milk accelerates resolution of cow's milk allergy in children
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3151608/

More detail in case there is confusion ...
Raw peanut and roasted peanut have differences in some protein structures. When we talk of peanut allergy, we are usually referring to allergy to roasted peanuts which is most common at least in the US. It may be possible that such an allergic person could tolerate raw or boiled peanut. It depends on which specific peanut protein the person is allergic to and how that protein is modified by boiling/roasting.
If you are allergic to roasted peanuts and if you cook roasted peanuts again, you will still have a reaction.

adjuvants belong to a different century!

I don't even... O RLY?

"I am primarily interested in the safety of CURRENT vaccines."

I/ we don't care what your interests are, you are shouting warnings on vaccines and adjuvants, you should bloody well know your stuff!

"Please post package inserts of the old vaccine."

Again a very silly thing to say, package inserts didn't become law till the 1960s.

Ok, if you are telling me that those vaccines contained undocumented garbage, I am somehow supposed to explain why it does not cause a certain disease?

@Vinu

Does J Develop Drugs have a peer review panel?

Yes.

@ Ben

I've stopped clicking on his links, they are usually meaningless to the point at hand. I suspect he's trying to generate traffic to his "research".

Please be specific.

Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer died a few weeks ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/dec/08/greg-lake-dies-prog-rock-…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_IObUySaC4&list=PL94gOvpr5yt1y0kdR8Eqg…

Crap. And how did I miss this??

Keith Emerson’s death has been officially ruled suicide. The co-founder and keyboardist of the influential prog-rock group Emerson, Lake and Palmer died last week at the age of 71.

An autopsy by the Los Angeles coroner confirmed that Emerson shot himself.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/16/keith-emerson-death-suici…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_2gQ4sEsbY

Merry Christmas and fuck you, 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Yczhd4l8Y

Oops, wrong Greg Lake.

"arrest the sun and shoot the moon; the lamp of laughter dies too soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_IObUySaC4

"Ok, if you are telling me that those vaccines contained undocumented garbage, I am somehow supposed to explain why it does not cause a certain disease?"

No, we have passed that point. I'm telling you that you do not know enough about vaccines or adjuvants to comment on their safety and should shut up. Like right now.

"Please be specific."

Look at you being all innocent. Did you forget:

""No graph, but pretty close:"

Close in the same way that GN-z11 is close to my house."

And:
"@ Vinu “No graph, but pretty close:”

Not even slightly, way to totally dodge the issue, by spamming more of your BS."

And to add to the deaths Gilbert listed, George Michael passed away in the early hours of Christmas Morning.

The Gardasil nonsense became all the more irksome to me when I started working with head and neck cancer patients. I'm an LCSW at a large cancer hospital, and a good 50% of my time spent with patients is learning how to live with facial disfigurement, speech impairment, dysphasia, and so on... I'd say at least 35-40% of our newly diagnosed patients are 60-ish year old men with negligible smoking/drinking histories with (high-risk HPV) p16+ H&N tumors. Despite having a fairly good cure rate, the "quality of life" issues that accompany at least the surgery/radiation piece are HUGE. I get paged quite frequently to assess for suicide with these folks.

Anyhow, moral of the story is that HPV is a big deal for women AND men. So I really hate seeing junk like this about the HPV vax - there needs to be more public awareness about the connection between HPV and oral cancers.

Thanks for your perspective KC.

Add Carrie Fisher to the list of celebrities who left us this year.
-_-

"I want it reported that I drowned in moonlight, strangled by my own bra."

--Carrie Fisher in her book, "Wishful Drinking"

Such a fine sense of humor, such a waste. Damned cocaine.

It sure seems like a big list this year:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/22/entertainment/2016-celebrity-deaths/

A "holistic" doctor throws a hilariously disingenuous tantrum over board recertification

oracknows — Tue, 16 Aug 2016 01:00:45 +0000

A "holistic" doctor throws a hilariously disingenuous tantrum over board recertification

In the early days of 2016, my attention was drawn to a local antivaccine doctor of whom I’d heard before but never really paid much attention to. What caught my eye was a blog exchange between this “holistic” family practitioner and former Scienceblogs blogger, friend, and local internist Peter Lipson over this physician’s blog posts attacking a local Jewish summer camp for children for its new requirement that campers must be up to date on their vaccinations as a requirement for attending. Not surprisingly, Dr. Lipson took the side of science and refuted the antivaccine nonsense that had been laid down by this local “holistic” physician, leading to a response to Dr. Lipson entitled The Great Vaccine Debate in which he tried to refute Dr. Lipson and failed miserably, to amusing effect that I couldn’t resist blogging about in order to provide a heapin’ helpin’ of some Not-So-Respectable Insolence.

That was the last time I paid attention to Dr. David Brownstein, the “holistic” doctor in question. I had noted that his website was chock full of antivaccine misinformation and tropes, and that Dr. Brownstein embraced antivaccine pseudoscience enthusiastically. Indeed, just for yucks, I perused his website again in writing this introduction and found newer articles with titles like Vaccines, Autism, and our Do-Nothing U.S. Congress; Congress Should Be Shamed: The Vaccine Crises Continues; Censorship is Alive and Well in 21st Century America; and CDC Cover-Up of Autism and Vaccine Link Continues. Yes, Dr. Brownstein, credulous and, apparently, not too bright fellow that he is, totally buys into the “CDC whistleblower” manufactroversy and all the lies about it in Andrew Wakefield’s and Del Bigtree’s movie VAXXED. And, yes, he’s still laying down sheer antivaccine idiocy like:

Folks, the truth of the matter is that the claim that vaccines are safe and effective is an example of a platitude that is continually repeated. Vaccines have not been properly studied and many vaccines simply don’t work. The truth of the matter is that the vaccine schedule has never been studied. We simply don’t know if it is safe to inject our children with over 70 vaccines before they are adults.

I can assure you of one thing: It is not safe to inject our children (or any living being) with toxic additives such as mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum or MSG. It is not rocket science to predict that people injected with toxic items that negatively affect the human body will suffer neurological and immunological problems.

Simply repeating that vaccines are safe and effective does not make them so. Watching our young people suffer with so many chronic illnesses should make anyone question the validity of injecting more toxins into them.

All of these are lies and misinformation that I’ve debunked on more occasions than I can remember over the last 12 years. (You’ll just have to take my word for it this time; debunking them all again will make this post much, much longer than you probably want to read, even by my standards.) What it did remind me of is the reason I was going to write about Dr. Brownstein again anyway. Specifically, it led me to the question of how “holistic physicians” like Dr. Brownstein can remain board certified in their specialties. What made me ask that question again was a post on that repository of all things conspiracy, quacky, libelous, and just plain dumb, Mike Adams’ NaturalNews.com, which reposted an article written by Dr. Brownstein under the title After 7-hour medical board exam about prescription drugs, holistic Doctor decides to skip board certification, which turns out to be a reposting of the article from Health Impact News entitled After 7-Hour Medical Board Exam on Drugs, Holistic Doctor Decides to Give up Board Certification, which turns out to be a reposting of the original post from Dr. Brownstein’s blog in April entitled Family Practice Exam: Drugs, Drugs, and More Drugs.

Poor, poor pitiful me, Dr. Brownstein is saying. The test is all about drug treatments. One wonders what he expected. Before I delve a bit deeper into Dr. Brownstein’s whining, first let me point something out. Dr. Brownstein is most definitely not giving up his board certification. What he said is that he was so disgusted that his taking the recertification exam in family practice “will be the last time I put myself through something as ridiculous as that endeavor!” In other words, Dr. Brownstein’s posturing is the rhetorical equivalent of the brown, stinky stuff that comes out of the hind end of male bovine creatures.

Why do I say this? First, I looked at Dr. Brownstein’s picture and figured that he’s probably roughly my age. A search for his CV revealed that I was correct; he graduated from college a year later than I did. Also, depressingly, I learned that Dr. Brownstein went to medical school where I am faculty now and before that attended the University of Michigan as an undergraduate, which means we were on the same campus for three years. Of course, he was a psychology major and I was a chemistry major; so I probably never encountered him. It does disappoint me that the same schools I attended and am on faculty at failed Dr. Brownstein so miserably that he became the “holistic” doctor he is now. Be that as it may, that means that Dr. Brownstein is probably roughly my age, which means he’s probably 10-12 years from retirement, give or take; that is, if he retires at age 65. Board certification lasts ten years and very likely he’s taking the exam a year or two before his current board certification expires, meaning that, assuming he passed his exam, he’s probably good for another 11-12 years. See where I’m going with this? He’ll be good until the time he’s ready to retire or at least close to it.

This leapt out at me because I’ll be facing a similar situation soon. My board certification in general surgery will expire at the end of 2018, but this year I got a notice that I could take the recertification examination in November or December. Unfortunately, I didn’t get the notice until May and that my practice is super-specialized in breast cancer, which means reviewing all of general surgery will be a daunting task that I couldn’t manage in only six months as well as submit multiple grant applications this fall to keep my lab going. The bottom line is that I decided to spend all of 2017 reviewing and take the test in late 2017, a decision I’m comfortable with. More importantly, assuming I pass the recertification examination next year, that means my board certification will be good until the end of 2028, when I’ll be 66. You see where I’m going. Will it be worth it for me to recertify when I’m potentially that close to retirement? I have no idea. I might want to practice until I’m 70 or older if things are going well and I’m still enjoying it, or I might want to retire then, following the example of the professor who was most responsible for hiring me who retired last year at age 66. Who knows?

The point is that Dr. Brownstein is posturing most ridiculously. in 11 or 12 years he’ll be in basically the same position I will be: Close to retirement. Moreover, unlike me, since he isn’t associated with a hospital and doesn’t accept health insurance of any kind, he could easily keep practicing a few years after his board certification expires. Heck, he even admitted that he had considered not recertifying this time:

I have been Board-Certified in family practice since I graduated from my residency (with a short period where I missed taking the exam). I last recertified 10 years ago and when my letter came informing me that I would have to sit for another exam, I debated whether to do it.

You see, over the last twenty years or so, I no longer practice conventional family practice. Now, I practice holistic medicine. I still use much of what was taught to me in my training, but now, I primarily rely on items that support the body’s physiology and biochemistry and I strive to avoid using items that poison and block the body’s pathways. Unfortunately, nearly all of the drugs currently used in conventional medicine work by disrupting the body’s physiology and biochemistry by poisoning enzymes and blocking receptors. I have written about this extensively in my books, Drugs That Don’t Work and Natural Therapies That Do and The Statin Disaster.

This is, of course, a false dichotomy. Yes, one of the first things I was taught in physiology and pharmacology in medical school is that nearly all drugs are cellular poisons in that they tend to block the function of some protein or cellular function or other to achieve their effect. Here’s the dirty little secret about “holistic” medicine: If an herbal “natural” medicine “works” it works by functioning like a drug, which means that it, too, is probably a cellular poison. It’s an adulterated drug whose potency will vary from lot to lot, but it’s a drug nonetheless. As for “supporting the body’s physiology,” what does that even mean? Take a look, for instance, at what sorts of treatments Dr. Brownstein offers:

Acupuncture
Massage Therapy
Polarity Therapy
Manipulative Medicine
N.A.E.T.
Micro-current Facials
J.M.T.
N.M.T.
Emotional Freedom Technique (E.F.T.)
Vitamin and Mineral Supplementation
Intravenous Vitamin and Mineral Therapies
Elimination and Allergy Diets
Body Composition Analysis (B.I.A)
Electro-Dermal Screening (E.D.S.) Full Bio-Profile Reports

I’ve written about several of these before, particularly acupuncture and intravenous vitamin therapies, both of which are, in my opinion (and that of pretty much every doctor with an understanding of science), pure quackery based on pseudoscience (intravenous vitamins) or prescientific beliefs (acupuncture) that in no way “support the body’s physiology and biochemistry.” I ask the same of emotional freedom technique, which is a treatment designed by a New Age energy healing guru who eliminated the need for all those nasty needles in acupuncture and claimed to cure people by tapping “meridians” with his fingertips. He also claims to be manipulating “subtle energies.” Another, NAET, which is described as a “non-invasive, drug free, natural solution to alleviate allergies of all types and intensities using a blend of selective energy balancing, testing and treatment procedures from acupuncture/acupressure, allopathy, chiropractic, nutritional, and kinesiological disciplines of medicine.” In other words, NAET is clearly nonsense. Electrodermal screening reminds me, more than anything else, of using a Scientology e-meter. No wonder Harriet Hall refers to it as “fooling patients with a computerized eight ball.”

The claim that any of these therapies, all of which are quackery other than massage therapy, “support normal physiology,” is risible in the extreme.

Dr. Brownstein further complains:

In my SEVEN (miserable) hour board exam today, I found myself getting more and more irritated. Nearly every question was about a drug—how it is used, the side effects associated with it, and how it interacts with other drugs. There were virtually no questions about the importance of diet or the importance of identifying nutritional deficiencies. In fact, I can’t recall one question along those lines. The patient vignettes that I suffered reading through were all the same—the patient was taking multiple drugs and I was asked one obscure question about the drug therapy prescribed to the patient. I actually felt bad for the poor patients in the vignettes as they were having their biochemistry poisoned with multi-drug prescription cocktails.

One wonders what Dr. Brownstein means by “nutritional deficiencies.” What “holistic physicians deem a nutritional deficiency is often related to what science deems a nutritional deficiency solely by coincidence. All too often, “holistic medicine” involves identifying and “correcting” nutritional “deficiencies” that aren’t through a battery of expensive laboratory tests and supplements. Indeed, there’s a whole branch of “holistic medicine” devoted to just that; i.e., functional medicine, or, as I like to call it, making it up as you go along. Guess where I found Dr. Brownstein’s CV? At the FMU website. FMU stands for Functional Medicine University, which is an online school, and Dr. Brownstein appears to be featured in several online video classes there. In any case, the problem with “holistic” medicine is that its practitioners attribute near magical—strike that, just magical—healing abilities to diet. There’s no doubt that diet and exercise are important to good health, but if you believe some alternative medicine practitioners, you’d think that diet can cure everything. I have little doubt that part of the problem Dr. Brownstein had with his recertification examination is that he shares this inflated view of the power of dietary interventions to cure just about anything.

I can’t help but also mention that he’s a graduate of the Desert Institute School of Classical Homeopathy, which makes his lecturing anyone on science...problematic. In other words, I remember that when I read this broadside of Brownstein’s:

I am amazed that the AAFP does not even acknowledge the importance of diet and nutritional support in their exam. Yes, there may have been a few token questions (but I can’t recall one), but they were few and far between. I guess the AAFP believes that prescription drugs can cure all that ails. It is too bad that the medical research does not support this idea.

And I am amazed that an actual physician who graduated from my beloved medical school where I am on faculty could believe enough in homeopathy to have take a class on it and potentially incorporate it into his practice. I find it simultaneously hilarious and pathetic that someone who offers acupuncture, EFT, NAET, and so many other unscientific and pseudoscientific treatments and have the temerity to lecture the AAFP, or anyone else in medicine, about science and the proper treatment of patients. It’s also not true that the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) doesn’t consider diet important; it’s published a whole lot of monographs on nutrition. Its own recommended curriculum for family practice residents is peppered with statements like:

“Nutrition is one of the most powerful interventions available.”
“Nutrition counseling that targets dietary risk factors as primary prevention has the potential to significantly reduce mortality and morbidity throughout the life cycle.”
“Nutritional interventions have the potential to reverse certain disease processes. Additionally, proper nutritional status can positively support medical interventions.”

One of the learning objectives is described thusly:

4. The role of nutrition in the prevention and treatment of specific diseases, including:

a. Cancer
b. Cardiovascular disorders
c. Dental disease
d. Endocrine disorders
e. Gastrointestinal disorders
f. Hematologic disorders
g. Renal disorders
h. Respiratory disorders
i. Bone and rheumatic disorders
j. Neurologic disorders
k. Skin conditions
l. Gynecologic disorders
m. Obesity

The list goes on. Read it for yourself.

Basically, Dr. Brownstein’s blog post amounts to a whole lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. He postures about never taking the family practice recertification examination again, painting it as a principled decision when in reality it is mere petulance disguised as principle. Indeed, he doesn’t need to be board certified because he doesn’t take insurance or have hospital privileges and will need it even less, if at all, in ten years, when he will be much closer to retirement age. Then he whines because the test didn’t have on it what he thinks it should have on it and doesn’t encompass the way he practices medicine because, from my judgment of his website, he doesn’t practice science-based medicine.

You know what. Maybe Dr. Brownstein shouldn’t have taken the recertification examination. Science- and evidence-based medicine clearly isn’t for him.

oracknows Mon, 08/15/2016 - 21:00

Categories

Education

Well, I have two physicians who give me treatments to “support normal physiology,” with one prescribing metoprolol succinate extended release 50 mg BID, the other methimazole 10 mg, BID.
Why, with those, my blood pressure is in a normal physiological range, rather than stage 3 hypertension and my thyroid hormones are very close to normal range.
See what I did there? Nothing at all like that idiot does.

However, I'm in a rather unique position as to recertification testing and even CE unit documentation.
Back in the year 2009, I had taken my certification test for Security+. In the year 2010, the certification requirements changed to require CE units being documented and recertification testing.
I, along with others who certified prior to that change were grandfathered in and we don't have those requirements.
When my employer began to track those certifications, as part of a DoD mandate, that caused no end of initial consternation with our intern! I gave him a brief history lesson of DoDI 8570.01, DoDI 8570.01-M, the reasons for those instructions, the history of Security+ and other similar programs that later changed to require recertification and continuing education unit tracking.
After all, interns are there to learn, a well rounded education also involves history education. ;)

I this the same Dr. Brownstien?

The Iodine-mongering Dr. Browstein??

The 50mg/day of KI and I₂ Dr. Brownstein???

This asshole owes me a new thyroid gland.

@Richard Clarke, if you need some, my thyroid's on overdrive, you're welcome to a lobe or so of it. :)

Here’s the dirty little secret about “holistic” medicine: If an herbal “natural” medicine “works” it works by functioning like a drug, which means that it, too, is a cellular poison.

Oh yes.
**insert usual list of drugs derived from herbal or animal extracts - up to 60% of our modern pharmacopoeia**

Heck, our own hormones and all the hormonal lookalike could be described as working "by disrupting the body’s physiology and biochemistry by poisoning enzymes and blocking receptors".

@Helianthus, if you recall, I mentioned two drugs that restore my metabolism to a sustainable, healthy level.
Methimazole inhibits the enzyme thyroperoxidase, thereby blocking a necessary step in the synthesis of both T3 and T4 hormones. (The full explanation is well explained in the Wikipedia article on the drug.)

Metoprolol is a selective B1 receptor blocker, in short, a beta-adrenergic blocking agent. B1 receptors are primarily in the heart and kidneys, selectively blocking those lowers heart rate and contractile function in the heart, thereby lowering both pulse and blood pressure.

Heck, we're interfering with two families of hormones function or formation with two different poisons!
Still, it beats letting my heart rate and blood pressure staying so high, as my left ventricular hypertrophy could regress to normal and my aorta may just require watchful waiting, rather than emergency, likely to be doomed to fail emergency surgery to repair a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm.
You know, dead.
Which is what I'd be if I let that holistic quack mistreat me.

"We simply don’t know if it is safe to inject our children with over 70 vaccines before they are adults."

If you wait to see how long the test group lives, monitoring them for health all their lives, before releasing a vaccine to the general public, we'd STILL be having polio epidemics.

I was in the Salk test group as a child and - aside from a notable lack of polio - have better health than my mother or aunts did at this age.

"If you wait to see how long the test group lives, monitoring them for health all their lives, before releasing a vaccine to the general public, we’d STILL be having polio epidemics."

Hell, we'd *still* have smallpox epidemics.

Still, I'm willing to compromise. Everyone who wants to do that moves, with their family and other volunteer families, to a quarantined island and all vaccine preventable diseases, counting smallpox and rabies are released there. We'll test one per lifetime and if approved, survivors will get the vaccine that's already well known to be well tested in the rest of the world.
I a few thousand years, their survivors will be permitted to rejoin the world's population.

Vaccines for mumps that don't even work?
Vaccines for measles that can give you super-measles?

Umm, no.

Trade those fun childhood diseases for the vaccine-induced diseases such as SIDS, Gullaine-Barre, POTS, Polio, Autism, and Acute Flacid Paralysis?

Nope. I'll just take the chance of getting some trivial sickness.

Very well, go to the suggest island and leave my family away from your filthy, disease ridden children.
Since you're not one for civilized things and behavior, we'll go to uncivilized behavior. Infect my family members that cannot yet be vaccinated, I reserve the right to terminate yours.

Ms. Wallace, surely you jest?

Polio doesn't exist in the US anymore because of vaccines. A little research of history and you would see that huge chunks of the population were killed or crippled by that annually pre-vaccines. Same with mumps, same with measles. These diseases aren't "trivial." Yes, other medical advancements besides vaccines have improved our ability to diagnose, manage and treat the illnesses, but that does not mean they are trivial.

Oh, and you're wrong.

No. You can get polio from polio vaccines. It happens all of the time.

Do show us a single case, just one, of IPV causing polio, I'll show that you're a liar.
OPV has reactivated, on rare occasions. That said, the only place where OPV is used is where polio epidemics are already present. I guess you'd prefer unterrupted, universal polio infections to the rare occasion that the virus manages to repair itself, in an environment where the vaccine has already begun immunizing the population.

Ms Mia Wallace, please describe the mechanism by which measles vaccine can cause super measles.

Brownstein took the recertification exam, but did he pass it?

Trade those fun childhood diseases for the vaccine-induced diseases such as SIDS, Gullaine-Barre, POTS, Polio, Autism, and Acute Flacid Paralysis?

A whole bunch of P.R.A.T.T.s in one easy to dismantle comment. Vaccines do not cause SIDS. This has been looked at by researchers at Bristol University, including perhaps the World's foremost expert on SIDS. Guillane-Barre was 17 times more common in people who got the flu than in people who got the vaccine. The "vaccines cause autism" theory has been investigated and disproven.
As for "fun childhood diseases", everything we vaccinate against can kill, and can cause other negative sequelae like lung damage, organ damage, brain damage, sterility, deafness and blindness.

Atypical Measles in Adolescent Siblings 16 Years After Killed Measles Virus Vaccine
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=371258

AKA Supermeasles!

That dates back to 1980. In addition, I could only view the abstract. Would you provide a link to the full article so I could read it for myself?

Your not a member of JAMA? You get subscribe.

No, I'm not a member of JAMA. And I'm not going to subscribe just to look at one article.

That dates back to 1980. In addition, I could only view the abstract. Would you provide a link to the full article so I could read it for myself?

This harkens back to Thingy's MO. If I recall correctly, it wasn't the vaccine but rather the failure of the vaccine to protect against the disease. Molecular techniques weren't available to detect that and the killed measles vaccine didn't work well at all.

Oooh, a live one. Popping popcorn.

OK Ms Mia Wallace. We're talking over 30 years ago. A much older (killed) vaccine, followed by apparent doses of live vaccine but with no additional dosing information. And this was 4 siblings in a family. A Case Study, in other words. Maybe the family has a history of immune issues. And I love the way you made it "SUPERMEASLES" when the abstract makes it clear it was just an atypical presentation of measles.

NOTE: I HAD measles and mumps, but never developed immunity. Fortunately, I did develop immunity to rubella.) And the MMR just gives me a booster that lasts a few years. Why? Who knows. But they weren't "simple illnesses" and my mother, a doctor's daughter, was very concerned about me.

If you are going to post anti-vax tropes, please don't be boring and post the same stuff that's been refuted thousands of times. Give us something new to look at.

Oh, and Ms Wallace? Don't assume all readers are in the US. Why would a physician in the UK, Australia, or the EU be a member of JAMA? They wouldn't even be eligible.

There is nothing new in antivax tropes. Or at least new antivax tropes are rare and far between.

I am just a wee bit skeptical about Dr. Brownstein's claim that virtually all questions on the family practice board recertification exam are about drugs - or that they're even focused almost exclusively on treatment. Nothing at all about diagnosing disease? No questions about socioeconomic or documentation/electronic medical record/privacy issues? Zero on ethics?

I suspect Brownstein is either very forgetful about a test he supposedly spent seven hours on, or is making stuff up to the delight of Ninnytown News readers.*

"I’ll just take the chance of getting some trivial sickness."

Another message board I post on has a thread about a woman who was recovering from "stomach flu" when she developed leg tingling and weakness. Turns out she had Guillain-Barre and required hospitalization to get that bad 'ol allopathic therapy.
Wonder if Ms. Mia ever heard of GB contracted through the more common pathway of non-vaccine induced immune dysfunction.

*my favorite was the poster who declared that plumbers have saved far more lives than Allopathic Physicians. Next time the Code Blue team races by, I'll look for the guy carrying the plunger.

@Orac: I know, but one can hope for SOME originality from the swarm.

If I still lived in Michigan, I'd be tempted to go to Dr Brownstein just to see how many laughs I could get out of an appointment. I'd happily point out that his herbs and vitamin treatments *ARE* all drugs. And I'd offer him some homeopathy from my thermos. :)

By the way, being a "JAMA member" (I think Ms. Mia means being an A.M.A. member) does not qualify you to see the complete article. When I signed in, all I got was the abstract and references (apparently 36-year-old articles are not necessarily archived). One reference turned up the information that "atypical measles" does not equate to "supermeasles", but was described as a combination of measles developing years after killed virus vaccination when antibody titers had declined and the individual was exposed to measles, plus had a delayed hypersensitivity reaction due to prior immunization.
Since for many years we've used the MMR (a live virus vaccine), and measles thankfully is an uncommon disease (if herd immunity is kept up), "atypical measles" seems to no longer be an issue. Immunity following the MMR is very long-lasting.

Ms. Mia needs to keep up with the science, which left her and fellow meme-chanting antivaxers in the dust long ago.

People Mia Wallace/Michelle/Richard Clark are Fendelsworth.

@ Dangerous Bacon

Dr. Brownstein’s claim that virtually all questions on the family practice board recertification exam are about drugs

He did mention "token questions". Which I could read as "one quarter of the questions".
Also, I'm sure any question about ethics or medical records in which a drug is mentioned has been pushed under the "drugs" umbrella.
Selective memory is a good bet, I think.

I’ll look for the guy carrying the plunger.

I understand Phelps has one on retainer.

over 70 vaccines before they are adults

No, no, no, no, no. Why is this such a hard thing to grasp. The current schedule has, at most, 53 doses of vaccines. There are even fewer doses if combination vaccines are used. Ugh, so annoying.

@Todd W #30, I think that 70 is just about right, for US military personnel who are deploying to certain regions overseas repeatedly over a career. ;)
You know, smallpox, yellow fever, plague, dengue, cholera, typhoid, anthrax, with boosters. I think we had, off of the top of my head.

I pulled the article at my university.

It's a 2 page primary research (with opinion) paper. N=4 kids testing with live measles after immunization. One kid developed symptoms 16 years after that were "atypical" of measles which could also be mistaken for Rky Mtn spotted fever, even though having consistent titers, serum antibody was deficient.

We also know that measles mutated, necessitating a revision in vaccine around 1989, and the vaccine around 1970-74 was not adequate for coverage. Well after the paper published, but certainly the authors could be describing the beginning of that period, where measles mutated. Anyway,

The sibling in question became infected with a natural strain 16 years later. The one thing they did document was frequent community infection of measles occurring on an annual basis, which was behaving atypically. "Sibling 1 had unknowingly been exposed to measles, although the disease has been reported in the family's city of residence each year." Sibling 2 & 3 "several years previously...Their postexposure, early disease and convalescent titers are high and similar to those described in atypical measles." This was noted to occur after natural measles exposure in the community.

No genotype to suggest anything of "super-measles" because of the vaccine, i.e. no support to anything in the article of the vaccine causing "super-measles."

Point being, if you pull an abstract, at least read the f'n article to see what actually happened.

On "atypical measles", from what I've seen, that generally is used to describe a course of illness that is milder, presents altered symptoms, or altered timing than your average case of measles infection. I don't recall ever seeing it as a description of a more virulent case.

Back on topic, I would be rather surprised if the exam did not have a lot of questions about drugs (e.g., indications, dosing, interactions, contraindications, etc.). I would be very worried to have a physician who did not know those details, because they could very easily kill or seriously harm their patients if they did not know enough about the drugs they're prescribing.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the exam should also include questions about drug-drug interactions where at least one of them is some "herbal remedy" (e.g., St. John's Wort) or dietary item (e.g., grapefruit). Those have known, significant effects on certain classes of drugs that doctors should be aware of. And we really need to know more about how all of the various "dietary supplements" and "herbal remedies" affect other drugs that people may be taking. But we never see anyone like Dr. Brownstein doing that kind of research.

People Mia Wallace/Michelle/Richard Clark are Fendelsworth.

That reminds me: Could you mail me the IP addresses used at your place?

Unless I missed something, did Dr. Brownstein actually pass the board recertification exam? One wonders how he accomplished this, being a Non-Poison-Drug-Practitioner, seeing that virtually all exam questions purportedly dealt with drugs.

I can see multiple possibilities - that Dr. B _does_ prescribe a lot of Dem Evil Drugs in his practice, that he crammed madly beforehand at a board prep course, that he knows a ton about drugs by Doing His Own Research (but only in order to denounce them), that he wildly exaggerated the number of drug questions, that he's a really good guesser, or that he flunked the exam.

^ emailed you.

I wonder how Dr Brownstein feels about the ugly thread of antisemitism that runs through the anti vaccine movement.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/anti-semitic-vac…

FWIW, I find these docs that are actual MDs and behave no better than you average naturopath to be the worst. I get such a sense of them being traitors because, quite simply, they should know better. It really grinds my gears because of the harm they can and do cause, given the extra weight their recommendations carry with people because of that MD that follows after their name. Never mind the fact that it totally undermines us legitimate docs out here, updating the way we practice based on the best evidence in an effort to give the best care we can (and, yes, taking Board exams to show that we are up to date).

Now that I think about it, many state medical boards have pretty strict standards about medical websites advertising, rather than providing medical information. I would bet the Dr. Brownstein's website crosses that line. Anyone in Michigan want to write a letter?

Somewhat off topic

I HAD measles and mumps, but never developed immunity.

I have been wondering for a while what the percentage of non-responders (failure to develop immunity) is, following wild virus disease in measles, mumps, and chickenpox.

I've looked in Pubmed and in The Vaccine Book but haven't found clear answers.

Narad, check your email again.

For what it' worth:

Ms Mia Wallace:

No. You can get polio from polio vaccines. It happens all of the time.

It rarely happens with the OPV, which is a live-virus vaccine. It never happens with the IPV. OPV is only needed if extirpation has not been achieved. Which means if enough people follow your advice and decline IPV, countries without polio will get polio back, and we'll have to start using OPV again. Your advice doesn't even suit your supposed goals.

Oi, Mia Fendlesworth, where's that time machine that Kanner and Asperger had to go forward in time to pick up the vaccines that they then (obviously) gave to all those bairns that they worked with/studied in order to describe classic autism and Asperger's Syndrome (as Lorna Wing eventually labelled it)?

Still trying to figure out how "atypical" gets translated into "super".

Last I checked atypical just means that the symptom list is different from the typical symptom list. Often it will be missing a symptom, often whatever one is the most characteristic of the disease. Like not getting the rash that usually comes with measles.

Now for somethings atypical might and has an additional symptom not usually seen (which could be "super") but that would be, IMO, atypical of atypical presentations. Usually it more something didn't happen and often tends to be more common in milder presentations.

Gee, even if the vaccine didn't prevent the disease it may have caused it to be milder...oh the horror!

I can access the JAMA paper through my university account, but I don't know if this link will work for anyone else: file:///C:/Users/srauclai/Downloads/jama_244_8_022.pdf

As has already mentioned, the paper is about an old, killed measles vaccine that is no longer in use. The siblings who are the subject of the paper were initially vaccinated in 1963, and contracted measles during an outbreak at their high school in 1973. Of the three siblings who were exposed, one didn't get sick at all, one had mild illness, and one had severe illness. To quote the paper:

He remained severely ill for more than seven days, with daily temperature of 40 °C, abdominal, muscle, joint, chest, and head pain, dry cough, upper respiratory tract symptoms, and nausea with occasional vomiting.

In short, similar to a "baddish" case of regular measles, but not even close to being the worst measles can do. Both of the infected siblings recovered completely with no complications. Some "super-measles!"

@Julian Frost #18 "No, I’m not a member of JAMA. And I’m not going to subscribe just to look at one article."

The choice seemed clear: Either quit the Ph.D. or illegally obtain copies of the papers. So like millions of other researchers, he turned to Sci-Hub, the world’s largest pirate website for scholarly literature. Rahimi felt no guilt. As he sees it, high-priced journals “may be slowing down the growth of science severely.”

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/whos-downloading-pirated-papers-…

Oh,oh; No working links?

Sci-Hub remains reachable via alternate domains, IP address and a .onion Tor Hidden Service scihub22266oqcxt.onion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub

Yes, one of the first things I was taught in physiology and pharmacology in medical school is that nearly all drugs are cellular poisons in that they tend to block the function of some protein or cellular function or other to achieve their effect.

I don't think of this statement is close to being true. It doesn't apply to ascorbic acid for scurvy, the oral polio vaccine, insulin, human growth hormone, etc.

What a doofus.

Since Brownstein undoubtedly thinks that Ebill Drugz are "one of the leading causes of death", you would think he would welcome the opportunity to review his knowledge of "one of the leading causes of death". In addition, a lot of his patients will have a history of prescription drug use, or will currently be using them. Knowledge of said drugs might be handy when assessing these patients. Know your enemy, after all.

Apropos of nothing, it's interesting how many of these so-called Holistic Practitioners operate on a cash-only basis. They may be catering not only to the "worried well", but also to the "worried wealthy".

Someone in my family had the "supermeasles" when she was 2 yr old. (This was the 1940s, well before the vaccine.) The fever was so high that even though she survived, the docs feared at first that she had brain damage. Before the illness, she had started to talk a little, but after that she had regressed and could barely walk. She regained the lost ground, thankfully, but that must have been scary.

Someone in my family had the “supermeasles” when she was 2 yr old.

Still not "super measles", just measles and that's what it does even now.

@Sarah A #42:

but I don’t know if this link will work for anyone else: file:///C:/Users/srauclai/Downloads/jama_244_8_022.pdf

That link will only work on your PC (and possibly not even for other users of your PC, if there are any), but that's a good thing because you really, really don't want to make your C: drive available to the Internet. Thank you kindly for the thought, though.

there's really nothing worthwhile in the article anyway (speaking in the context of our current understanding as to what worthwhile means).

no "supermeasles"

I did read The Stand -- it had a "superflu" maybe that's what she meant

A question from an ignorant's point of view. At this point Dr. Brownstein has been in practice for a while and has an established costumer base sympathetic to his promotion of alternative medicine - that's at least my impression. What's the advantage to him from taking the certification exam, which would require him to - as you show - memorize and repeat things he doesn't apply in his practice? Why would he bother? What is the advantage?

"At this point Dr. Brownstein has been in practice for a while and has an established costumer base sympathetic to his promotion of alternative medicine – that’s at least my impression. What’s the advantage to him from taking the certification exam, which would require him to – as you show – memorize and repeat things he doesn’t apply in his practice? Why would he bother? What is the advantage?"

Same advantage gained by Jay Gordon in paying dues to the American Academy of Pediatrics. Jay gets to put FAAP after his name at every opportunity. There are patients who might think Brownstein has more credibility if he advertises that he's board certified.*

*to be designated a fellow of the American Academy of Family Practice (which requires a finding of achievement/community service by your peers) has considerably more cachet than being a fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics, where you only have to pass your boards like practically every other pediatrician.

I too took the Family Practice Boards this summer, and I distinctly remember a number of diet and nutrition questions -- including one about the proper way to diagnose Vitamin D deficiency (hint: not a saliva or urine test). I would also wager that there were more diagnostic-related questions than medication-related questions. If I had any complaint about the test, it would be that there were too many OB-related questions as the vast majority of Family Physicians no longer practice OB.

Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D (abnormal <20ng/mL)

I got one on possible increase autism risk in OB (hint, not vaccination) -- Severely early gestational maternal hypothyroxinemia --- must be said 5x fast while tap dancing.

I was seriously f***ed over by mumps. Any time I hear someone talk about how fun and harmless mumps are I tend to get violent. No decent human being wants their kids to go through what I went through. Do you really want to learn how dumb you're being the hard way? How many children do you think should get mumps before 'less than 1%" means "I ruined that kid's life" to you?

Vaccines contain MSG now? That is weapons grade fuckwittedness.

@ Dorit #50: I think you are on to something. Brownstein likely never intended to re-certify anyhow. But--he has used the premise of re-certifying to further his quackery--as in "I'm smarter than all this nonsense". This probably boosts his aura with those gullible enough to fall for his schtick. BTW, you do have to be board-certified in pediatrics to be an FAAP (hence why Bob Sears whined recently (albeit not so loudly) when he was studying for his board exam). Jay Gordon has to whine not a bit because he's old enough (read: retire already) that he is "grandfathered" in to never have to re-certify to stay board certified and FAAP.

@ Mark Thorson 44

I don’t think of this statement is close to being true. It doesn’t apply to ascorbic acid for scurvy, the oral polio vaccine, insulin, human growth hormone, etc.

Vit C for scurvy is more about nutritional deficiency. I would call it more food than drug.

As I pointed above, hormones do work by blocking some cellular functions and enabling others. I grant you it's a bit of a a stretch to call them poisons, especially since the hormones' effects are usually transient and reversible, but so are most other drugs.
In excess doses, hormones definitively are poisons. Death by insulin overdose is a thing.

In a similar vein, the OPV is also a bad example. Live-attenuated virus vaccines are going to "poison" a few of your cells with viruses and kill them. That's that makes these vaccines so efficient at creating a strong immunity.

I was seriously f***ed over by mumps. Any time I hear someone talk about how fun and harmless mumps are I tend to get violent. No decent human being wants their kids to go through what I went through.

Preach it, sister. (Not my actual sister, but you know what I mean.)

I've told the story on RI in the past, but -

I came down with the mumps at about 13. My balls swelled up to the size of my fist. Both of them. That wrinkly skin, that was my ball sack, wasn't. It was stretched tight. The only good thing about it is that I was delirious for most, but not all, of it. I wound up missing more than two weeks of school.

Why, no, I don't have any kids that I know of...

Sure, my case was a bit worse than average. My sister was a but more typical - good bit of crying, some pain and fever, a week or so at home from school - she was just sick.

To H-E-double hockey sticks with anybody that wants their kid to have a chance to go through what I went through, or even my sister's experience.

I actually have my own mumps story myself, but I don't really want to make the details public. Suffice to say, it was not a good experience. So I'm with you when it comes to being really ticked off about antivaxers discounting mumps as a "minor" or "routine" childhood illness.

My experience with mumps was not so fun... and according to my mother it was the second time to get it! Apparently the "friend" whose mother cared for me because my mother worked told me that I was annoying because I moaned all the time.

Um, yeah... sorry I don't remember that, I was in pain.

Which was only eclipsed a couple years later in another country when I got bitten by an aedes aegypti mosquito that gave me dengue fever. That was two weeks of bone break fever. Kill the aedes aegypti... wipe them off of this earth!

"Kill the aedes aegypti… wipe them off of this earth!"

Fortunately there are people working on it:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/science/woodinville-firm-build…

Orac: "So I’m with you when it comes to being really ticked off about antivaxers discounting mumps as a “minor” or “routine” childhood illness."

I will now mention again that I had to take care of a six month old baby with chicken pox. Sure a baby will cry a few moments after a vaccine, now try for ten days covered with painful itchy pox without any kind of real relief. Creams were useless and no sane person gives a baby lots of Benadryl.

Lots and lots and lots of crying for ten solid days.

I am not very fond of sadistic fools who think children should suffer from varicella because they think it helps prevent shingles (which is wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong). Full grown adults should not expect children to suffer just because they can't be bothered to get a shingles vaccines.

The only childhood disease I had was chickenpox. One week of itchiness, a scar near my shoulder, and periodical mouth ulcers whenever I'm stressed. And I know I was lucky and my case was very mild.
I never got measles, mumps or rubella, and I don't recall anyone I was at school with getting them either. And reading the above stories, I'm grateful for MMR.

@Chris: Creams were useless and no sane person gives a baby lots of Benadryl. Yeah. I was "fortunate" in that my kids were older. But it wasn't fun to have to give a 5 year old opiates (Tyl #3) for pain either. I was SO PISSED when the vaccine became available only a few months later.

@MI Dawn, our kids were part of the testing for the Varicella vaccine.
One had an extremely mild case, the youngest had a milder case as well. Good thing too, as mom never had chickenpox, although she does show antibodies today.
Along with all other sorts of antibodies (she had her first rheumatologist's appointment last week).

@Guy Chapman

Some vaccines use MSG as a stabilizer,

I had measles as a baby. I was hospitalised for ten days, very ill; my mother told me she was terrified for me the whole time, as she'd lost a sibling to measles when she was a child.
I recovered, though my optician tells me that the virus could well have been responsible for the damge to one retina that left me nearly blind in that eye. On that account, I consider myself very lucky.
When i was seven I had German measles - rubella. It wasn't as bad as the measles, I was just pretty sick for a week or so. It didn't help that the local mothers all sent their young daughters around to crawl all over me, so as to get infected. This was years before there was a rubella vaccine, so infection was the only way to get immunity and 'measles parties' were common.

Guy @57: And now MSG is "toxic" too! Better tell Dr. Brownstein that there's MSG in his tomatoes (and Parmesan, and soy sauce, and mushrooms). What a maroon!

Wait, MSG? This guy is scared of a little MSG? Monosodium glutamate? The monomeric, salt form of a molecule that makes up 1% of the human body by mass? He's scared of it? Are you sure he's actually a doctor?

no sane person gives a baby lots of Benadryl

Why not? It sounds like a good way for both you and the baby to get some sleep, but I'm old enough to remember getting baby aspirin (Reye's Syndrome panic wasn't a thing yet) and babies getting alcoholic teething liquid.

I was five when I had chicken pox, and I remember being ridiculously miserable from the itching and the headache.

Key word in that sentence: lots

There are specific doses, and too much can cause death. When a parent is sleep deprived it can become very easy to forget you have given a dose.

Richard Clarke.. Id like to know more about the circumstances surrounding the thyroid gland Dr. Brownstein owes you.

I had chicken pox twice, severe both times, at 7 and 12. In retrospect, maybe it was a sign that my immune system was not going to last.

The conspiracy circle is complete: Brian Hooker claims "The Man" has gotten to the "CDC whistleblower"

oracknows — Tue, 26 Apr 2016 02:00:26 +0000

The conspiracy circle is complete: Brian Hooker claims "The Man" has gotten to the "CDC whistleblower"

There is a disturbance in the antivaccine Force. I can sense it.

Actually, it doesn’t take any special talent to detect this. You don't have to be some sort of pro-science Jedi. The evidence is everywhere. The most prominent examples of posts in the antivaccine crankosphere that tipped me off are on—of course!—the antivaccine propaganda blog Age of Autism, which references another blog’s post with blaring capitalized headlines, BREAKING: CDC WHISTLEBLOWER "DR. THOMPSON HAS BEEN HANDLED" SAYS DR. HOOKER AT MANHATTAN VAXXED Q&A. Elsewhere, He Who Shall Not Be Named (and to whom I shall no longer link, even with the rel=”nofollow” tag) proclaims: The vaccine empire strikes back: “Rumors swirl that Dr. Thompson has been bought off by the CDC and will submit 'reanalyzed' MMR research to destroy vaccine safety skeptics.” Google the title if you really want the source.

Regular readers of this blog will remember who William W. Thompson is. He is the so-called “CDC whistleblower.” In brief, Thompson is a CDC scientist who, for whatever reason, thought his concerns about a study examining whether there was a relationship between MMR vaccination and the risk of autism and autism spectrum disorders. were not adequately addressed. Again, for whatever reason, he struck up a budding friendship with Brian Hooker, a biochemical engineer turned incompetent antivaccine epidemiologist and researcher and exchanged several phone calls with him, complaining about the CDC. At the root of Thompson’s anger was his perception that a finding possibly implicating the MMR as a risk factor for autism had been intentionally left out of a paper on which he was co-author (DeStefano et al).

Basically, an almost certainly spurious finding in a small subgroup of the study that MMR vaccination was associated with an increased risk of autism in African-American boys. This increased risk was seen in no other subgroup and disappeared when proper correction for confounders was made. Still, that didn’t stop Thompson from tipping off Brian Hooker, who did a “reanalysis” of the dataset. Consistent with his general incompetence, Hooker did the wrong analysis. He analyzed a dataset designed for a case control study as a cohort study. Basically, Hooker tortured the data until it confessed what he wanted it to, but even then it didn’t confess all that he wanted. Torture the data as he might, the only “result” he could produce was an association between MMR and autism in African-American males. As I said at the time, he basically proved Wakefield wrong, because there wasn’t a hint of a whiff of a whisper of a positive correlation in any other group, and he had to do the wrong analysis to “show” a correlation in African-American boys. So bad was Hooker’s study that a new journal retracted it.

Not surprisingly, Hooker betrayed Thompson, providing recordings of their conversations to Andrew Wakefield, who didn’t waste much time going public with them. Because Hooker and Wakefield’s story seemed to confirm the central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement, namely that the CDC was “covering up” some sort of slam-dunk evidence that vaccines cause autism, thus was born the legend of the “CDC whistleblower.” It didn’t matter that Thompson lawyered up and issued a statement that didn’t exactly support Wakefield’s spin. He also gave his documents to Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL). The antivaccine movement used it to complain to the CDC, launch Twitter storms, and to hold protests, while Wakefield used it to make a documentary.

Unfortunately, that documentary, VAXXED: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe, somehow found its way into the Tribeca Film Festival. After a few days of head scratching about how a film that was so obviously a propaganda film that it would have made Leni Reifenstahl blush got into such a prestigious film festival, Robert De Niro himself, one of the festival’s founders who turned out to be antivaccine himself, ‘fessed up and then soon after yanked the film, causing antivaccinationists to lose it. Now the film is being screened in several cities.

At a screening at the smaller Manhattan Film Festival, the Q&A afterwards was videotaped:

Hilariously (and appropriately) the Q&A was moderated by antivaccine “journalist” Sharyl Attkisson and included Brian Hooker, Andrew Wakefield, Polly Tommey, Stephanie Seneff, Del Bigtree, and Mark Blaxill. Attkisson’s introduction of the panel is nauseating, too. Her nose was so far up Wakefield’s nether regions that she could probably tell what Wakefield had for dinner, as she it all the tropes about his being a persecuted truth teller and how science is supposedly broken. She continued on about the HPV vaccine, which she seems particularly to dislike. So busy is Attkisson buffing Wakefield’s credentials and, even more so, hers, that it isn’t until nearly 9 minutes into a 31 minute Q&A that she actually gets to the questions, and even then she starts things rolling with an utter softball question to Wakefield. Not surprisingly, Attkisson's question gives Wakefield the opportunity to repeat the same lie that Thompson is an “inside source” at the CDC who has accused the CDC of fraud and repeat a variant of his offensive sentiment about how autism is a blight.”

No. He. Did. Not. Of course, it is Wakefield, and if Wakefield said it was raining outside I would look out a window to verify it before taking his word. He can’t be trusted. Hilariously, Del Bigtree has the utter lack of proportion to say, not long after Wakefield’s self-serving blather, that the “CDC whistleblower” case “makes Watergate look like a child’s case.” I definitely chuckled when I heard that. The audience, unfortunately, did not. It applauded lustily, leading Bigtree to put on a faux humble act about how he’s “just a journalist.” Meanwhile, Mark Blaxill lays down some seriously burning stupid about Paul Offit. Of course, when it comes to vaccines (or science, for that matter), Blaxill is the very personification of the Dunning-Kruger effect. He has no clue what he’s talking about, but that sure doesn’t stop him from pontificating confidently.

The vast majority of what was said in the Q&A was nothing that regular readers here haven’t heard before. What caught everyone’s attention was when Hooker claimed, in response to a question by Attkisson about whether he’d be surprised if Thompson “recants” (note the choice of a word describing religious belief rather than science):

One of the things I asked Dr. Thompson to do in September 2014 was to leave the CDC and bring this all to light so he could come forward, go public, talk to congress, talk to the press directly — he choose not to. Dr. Thompson has been handled and will most likely submit a revised version of his analysis and try to absolve the MMR vaccine in early May 2016. This is typical of what we’ve seen at the CDC. The CDC analyzes data and when they see an effect they don’t like, they reanalyze data and the effect goes away. The CDC has done this historically from Agent Orange to Thimerosal and now to MMR vaccine.

I did not want this to come but certainly anticipated that while he was in the CDC it would come. In exchange for what Dr. Thompson is doing — and believe this [info] is a little bit shaky — I believe he will get his own autism research foundation. And so there has been some very, very dubious activities that went on because he stayed in the CDC. He also got a major cash reward from the CDC for maintaining his employment he said, until he qualifies for retirement. But there are a lot of things that happened since the last conversation I had with Dr. Thompson which was in September 2014. And I do want to warn you and I do want to anticipate this. But again, it’s the same thing we’ve heard and we’ve seen from an agency that’s been completely captured but the pharmaceutical industry. And it’s [CDC] there not to tell the truth but in order to manipulate the public. In order to do what they think the best thing to do is for society.

My first thought was that Hooker’s just making stuff up, but then I thought about it. Maybe Thompson is getting ready to break his silence, and Hooker’s trying to get ahead of it, to get the story he wants Wakefield’s minions to here out there before Thompson says anything. Thompson has, after all, issued no public statements since late August 2014; he’s long overdue. In any case, given how widely throughout the antivaccine crankosphere this specific quote has traveled, being posted and reposted far and wide, I’m very suspicious that this is an intentional strategy. Given that He Who Shall Not Be Named picked up on this right away, now, more than ever, I suspect Wakefield and he are colluding, or at least coordinating their efforts. One thing I’m surprised Hooker admitted was that, because he knew that it is illegal to record telephone calls in California (where he lives) without both parties’ consent, he drove to Oregon to record; on the other hand, he claims Thompson laughed uproariously when he found out.

Be that as it may, as long as Thompson remained silent, Wakefield and his minions could attribute whatever claims and statements to him that they wanted to attribute to him, and he couldn’t (or wouldn’t) respond. Wakefield even dishonestly spliced together unrelated statements by Thompson in Hooker's recordings to make it appear he was saying something he never said. Of course, this is conspiracy loon thinking writ large. If Thompson says something supportive of Wakefield and Hooker (or at least something that can be spun by Wakefield and Hooker as supportive), he’s the “CDC whistleblower,” a courageous fighter for the truth. If, on the other hand, Thompson says anything critical or does actually do a reanalysis that doesn’t show what Hooker wants it to show, then it’s obvious that “they” got to him and either induced him through financial rewards and protecting his retirement fund or somehow forced him to “recant.” Of course, given his behavior over the years and having cozied up to antivaccinationists as famous as Wakefield, the claim that the CDC and/or someone else would fund some sort of autism research foundation for him to shut him up is risible in the extreme, so much so that even some of the “brain trust” at AoA can’t quite swallow it. The only people likely to fund anything by Thompson would be allies of Wakefield; that is, if they thought he’d churn out reliably anti-MMR work.

Meanwhile, I do wonder if something is up, as He Who Must Not Be Named makes some predictions for May:

Watch for CNN to roll out its usual lineup of sellout doctors and pharma shills. Watch for a major ratcheting up of attacks against Dr. Wakefield and the VAXXED film. Just as importantly, watch out for social media to be taken over by social engineering robots who vilify and shame anyone that questions vaccine safety.

Gee, he says that as though it were a bad thing.

Again, this coordination makes me wonder if someone somewhere heard something. It’s not entirely implausible. On the other hand, this is Brian Hooker. This is Andrew Wakefield. it’s at least equally likely that they’re just pulling this story out of their posteriors.

oracknows Mon, 04/25/2016 - 22:00

Categories

Brain and Behavior

Of course, it is Wakefield, and if Wakefield said it was raining outside I would look out a window to verify it before taking his word.

I'd even go one step further - even if rain was seemingly coming down, I'd peek my head out of the house to make sure he wasn't spraying the window with a garden hose to make it appear to be raining.

I note that he did the “Lies of Brian Deer and Rupert Murdoch” number.

Maybe Rupert’s people at Fox didn’t realize that their proprietor twirled his moustache behind the scenes, when it was the only network I know of to interview the charlatan Wakefield recently.

Previously, of course, Wakefield has railed against the lies of Brian Deer and the British Medical Journal. And before that it was the lies of Brian Deer and Channel 4 TV.

And I guess all of it includes the lies of my editors, lawyers, peer-reviewers and fact-checkers. As well as the liars on the 5 member GMC panel, of three doctors and two lay members. As well as the lying of Mr Justice Mitting who ruled that Wakefield’s claim of ethical approval was false. And the wanton lying of the entire medical and scientific community who’ve egregiously failed to come forward and dispute the documentary proof of his misconduct.

Oh, and I forgot, the parents of children enrolled in his research who have come forward and denounced it as “fraud”

I'm not sure what to make of the new logoization "VaXed" over at AoA (at least), but ISTR that HWSNBN (I think) doesn't have a great track record on the "predictions" front. The real AoA gold came early from esteemed EMF-buy-my-Ebook gasbag Kostoff, who deemed the whole affair a "false flag" in D'ohmsted's from-the-editor[.]html entry "Too Late."

This has all been routinely scrubbed, although the latest incarnation only had around 118 comments, if my memory serves.

@ Orac

There is a disturbance in the antivaccine Force.

Kyle Katarn: "You always say this."

The CDC analyzes data and when they see an effect they don’t like, they reanalyze data and the effect goes away.

OTOH, you have these unqualified antivax people who analyze data and when they fail to see the effect they would like, they reanalyze data and the effect magically comes by.

Who to believe, who?

I note that he did the “Lies of Brian Deer and Rupert Murdoch” number.

If I recall John Stone's inexorably paranoiac pseudo-logic correctly, you're supposed to be a columnist at the Wall Street Journal.

Maybe Rupert’s people at Fox didn’t realize that their proprietor twirled his moustache behind the scenes

Murdoch is exactly the sort of villain who would twirl his moustache, if he had one. And one of the keys to remaining employed at Fox News is to avoid noticing that Murdoch is a moustache-twirling villain. Nice of Hooker to notice, but he's a bit late to the game.

Thompson has, after all, issued no public statements since late August 2014; he’s long overdue.

My understanding all along is that Thompson has had a highly paid lawyer who, among other things, has been advising him to STFU. Maybe Thompson has been following that advice. If so, then barring some change in the legal situation (such as Thompson giving a deposition or firing his lawyer) I expect things to stay that way. Maybe Hooker and/or Wakefield expect some such change in the near future. Or perhaps they are full of it. Those aren't mutually exclusive options.

Allow me to summarize Hooker's . . . er, let's call them "thoughts": If Thompson does something I dislike or does not do what I like, then he has been bought off or threatened and the proof is that he does or doesn't do these things.

Well, there is a movie to promote.

Total box office receipts were $119,000 as of 4/22/16. They need to fill a hell of a lot more seats.

I'm curious about where that claim of being given a "major cash reward" came from. I wonder if they're trying to spin the comment from Thompson's 2014 statement, released via his lawyer, as the evidence for this "reward". To wit:

My colleagues and supervisors at the CDC have been entirely professional since this matter became public. In fact, I received a performance-based award after this story came out. I have experienced no pressure or retaliation and certainly was not escorted from the building, as some have stated.

My impression is that is what they're using. They haven't spoken to him, apparently, since Sept. 2014, so they need to flog every bit they got from him until it says what they want it to say. I mean, hell, Wakefield had to splice different portions of the phone calls together in the film to make Thompson say something other than what he actually said.

Well, there is a movie to promote.

It's coming to a theater in my area this weekend. I might very well do a review, if I can find time to drive up there and see it. :-)

The date of May 2016 is very specific. It is also very close. If Thompson has a study coming out it already has to be in review - barring being in a pay-to-play journal, but I guess the CDC would never allow that.

So maybe Thompson has intimated to someone that there is something - it is not showing what Hooker and Wakefield wanted and so Hooker is getting in first?

Maybe I just have an over-active imagination.

Ach, this is all giving me a headache. I'll have to take a Blaxill&trade and lie down.

A few things I've noticed..

- Thompson and the CDC is " the biggest fraud in medical history' . Really, Andy?
- AJW is wearing a logo-ised VAXXED shirt peeking out from under his jacket
- Del chimes in with banal quotables: " It's my job", " always question authority, " fourth estate"
- Mark says half of children have a chronic condition- sure if you count what he and Health Choice count ( allergies, asthma, ADHD, autism - that[s just the As) most likely so did children 50 years ago if we counted conditions in the same way.
- Polly got parents to stand- a significant portion of the audience
- the screen is located in a long, narrow screening room. At first the camera pans back through what looks like a large number of viewers but later we see the actual size of the audience.

@Orac - As much as I'd love to read your review of VAXXED, I'd hate seeing anyone wasting their time and money on it... :/

It's possible this latest "disturbance in the antivax Force" came about after one of the key players attempted to contact Thompson in connection with the release of "Vaxxed". One would expect such an overture in hopes of getting, if not Thompson's endorsement of the film, at least a firm statement of support that would boost its credibility.

Instead, Thompson's silence from deep within the bowels of the CDC Chamber of Horrors continues. Worse, the antivax overture might have been so curtly or vehemently rebuffed that whoever made it felt that the response presaged a Thompson turnabout (it doesn't take much to stoke the fires of conspiracy among these folk).

Hence the need to stage a preemptive strike. It may not make sense to outsiders that antivaxers are trying to destroy Thompson's credibility by claiming that he can be bought off by cash and professional perks. But these are the same people who earlier revealed his alleged mental illness, not seeing how that little factoid might backfire.

When I was a child I often watched old movies on television and especially enjoyed the *noir* thrillers from the late 1940s and early 1950s- before my time but an era which my parents and relatives frequently discussed. Most of these films focused upon a detective who uncovered a tangled web of corruption amongst the powerful whose life was then threatened by those he investigated- all portrayed in glorious black and white, usually set in Los Angeles.

Later on, I was intrigued by films like "All the President's Men" ( see also today's "Spotlight") where newspaper reporters uncovered the ugly truth lurking beneath the surface of the world's most powerful institutions.

I venture that the people featured in the VAXXED Q and A- at some level- believe that movies represent reality and that they are now protagonists in a drama of earth shattering proportions. They even filmed it.
.
Actually, there is a valid comparison to those old films but not in the way they think.

Amethyst@1:

Of course, it is Wakefield, and if Wakefield said it was raining outside I would look out a window to verify it before taking his word.

I’d even go one step further – even if rain was seemingly coming down, I’d peek my head out of the house to make sure he wasn’t spraying the window with a garden hose to make it appear to be raining.

Don't. That's not a garden hose.

As much as I’d love to read your review of VAXXED, I’d hate seeing anyone wasting their time and money on it… :/

Exactly why I haven't decided whether to go or not.

Well, if true it will be interesting to see how Hooker and Wakefraud explain why anyone should see Wakey's vid since its star and hero, the "glorious whistleblower" Wm. Thompson, will have become the enemy and a mind controlled minion of the CDC. How is Wakefraud going to rationalize a video about a "whistleblower" exposing the CDC if the "whistleblower" comes out and says, "Ooops! I was mistaken."? I suppose the demographic he is depending upon as a customer base are stupid enough to merely accept - "Konspiracee!!!11!!1!!" as an explanation.

#8 ScienceMonkey,
I wonder how much it costs to present the Q&A panel at these things?
Air fare, hotels, and meals for 5 aren't cheap, especially in Manhattan or LA. I think it's a safe bet none of them are traveling economy.
$100,000 doesn't buy what it used to.

I would take everything Hooker states with a big boulder of salt. His claims have Jon Rappaport writ all over them. I believe Todd W is correct that Thompson's merit award is being spun as his "pay off". Thompson getting an autism foundation from the CDC? That's positively absurd; not only does he not have the expertise but I doubt the CDC is going to put Thompson in charge of anything but the office supplies and they don't "do" foundations. A re-analysis of the same dataset is also absurd and completely pointless. Besides Thompson's been shuttled off to another group. With Thompson's continued silence and no hearing in sight, they are using some spin to keep interest in the movie which is probably slagging off in sales.

Although I don't spend any money on woo, I think that there may be a way out of this dilemma for Orac-

if he does indeed still earn a few dollars from ads which he used to "put back into the blog" IIRC. He could use that as a research fund.

Personally I thought about having someone else pay but that's not fair either. I DO have money I saved which I found in a ladies' room perhaps quite appropriately.
Maybe I'll just wait until it's free.

@ Science Mom:

I do recall hearing a figure of 24000 USD being bandied about as Thompson's reward.

@ Denice, sure I'd sell my soul for a paltry $24K. All should re-read Thompson's statement that Todd W linked to @9, Thompson has offered to re-analyse the data and assist others. Not that there is a re-analysis coming out. Wankfield and Hooker are just a couple of skeevy charlatans.

# 16: Denice. Spotlight is exactly how those things are done or at least were done before the great hollowing out of newspapers. Much better than Presidents' Men. Totally authentic: right down to the cinderblock stairwells, and the reporter who goes "great" at the prospect of a lawsuit.

It was so real, I felt I was in the room.

Some of it's still happening, but it's so expensive to do. In the case of Wakefield, he kindly arranged for most of his exposure as a research cheat to be paid for by his insurance company.

If it is not a theater where there is only reserved seating you could buy a ticket for another movie and sneak into vAXxed.

Actually, there is a valid comparison to those old films but not in the way they think.

For every Woodward/Bernstein there are dozens that end up more like Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capone's vault. The people behind Vaxxed are in the latter category.

Actually I'm being kind there. A more apt comparison would be to the character in Carl Hiaasen's Skin Tight who is an over-the-top parody of Geraldo. The character dies a rather karmic death (which I won't spoil here) at the hands of the villain, a doctor who performs cosmetic surgery (and has a way of disposing of his, shall we say, unsuccessful cases).

I was thinking it's more along the lines of jerry springer.

@ DW #13 - I'll bet the "chronic condition" that afflicts most of that "50% of children" is obesity. They know full well that their target audience will interpret the technically accurate but deliberately misleading umbrella term "chronic condition" as referring to autoimmune disorders, which could at least somewhat plausibly be linked to vaccination.

If Hooker &co. sincerely believed that the effect Stephano et al reported in black males could potentially be real, they wouldn't be dicking around with "reanalysis" of the original data set - they'd set up a new study to specifically address that question. Given that Thompson does seem to be sincere, I wonder if he somehow convinced the CDC to do just that in hopes of putting this thing to bed once and for all (yeah, right). That's probably hoping too much, though.

This response to the latest anitvax shenanigans seems appropriate:

http://i.imgur.com/MmZfSIH.jpg

#23 Sarah A. I interviewed the first author of the Thompson 2004 paper - Frank de Stefano - about a year ago. CDC then was quite open. They weren't hiding. Later he talked to that woman who was fired from CBS, Sharon somebody.

There appears to be a perfectly legitimate difference of opinion, essentially about one of the tables in the paper, as I would interpret it. There is a line of data that might have been put in, but which could be argued was misleading.

More than that, there's a subgroup analysis of a specific age, gender and race band, which, as with heavily segmented data, would appear to be potentially spurious.

Thompson, however, has made no public allegation of fraud. Indeed, he says "reasonable scientist can and do differ in their interpretation".

And: "The fact that we found a strong statistically significant finding among black males does not mean that there was a true association between the MMR vaccine and autism-like features in this subpopulation."

All the stuff about Thompson being a whistleblower admitting fraud was made up by Wakefield, and spread on crank websites.

The man he originally spoke to - Brian Hooker - and who clandestinely recorded his calls - now appears concerned that Thompson is going to make some written statement on his position: maybe in the journal that published the paper.

If so, the spotlight may now turn back on Wakefield for his consistent - now decades-long - pattern of dishonest behaviour.

they’d set up a new study to specifically address that question. Given that Thompson does seem to be sincere, I wonder if he somehow convinced the CDC to do just that in hopes of putting this thing to bed once and for all (yeah, right). That’s probably hoping too much, though.

Yup. A rehash of the same dataset is just dumb. Using the MADDSP with more children (plus medica//birth certificate information) and establishing temporal relationship between the jab and ASD diagnosis/first concern would be appropriate. Funny how Hooker and Co. completely ignore Hooker's retracted re-analysis and the loyal faithful keep lapping it up.

Oh and writ should have been written @ 20.

Later he talked to that woman who was fired from CBS, Sharon somebody.

That would be the same Sharyl Atkisson who is sitting audience left on that panel. I would consider her reports about current precipitation to be about as accurate as Wakefield's.

Yes, the woman who is moderating the panel is Sharyl Attkisson. She's been an antivax loon since at least 2007:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/19/antivaccination-crankery-o…

@Orac - driving up there and paying to see it would be heroic devotion to duty. Above and beyond, I'd say.

On the costs of mounting the panel, don't forget the payment to Attkisson. I moderate panels and Q&As occasionally; I charge £1,000 for that kind of thing and I'm cheap. I bet she charges a fair whack more than that.

"For every Woodward/Bernstein there are dozens that end up more like Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capone’s vault. The people behind Vaxxed are in the latter category."

Except for the vault.

'Imagine that there is a vault. Imagine that we find something inside the vault...'

"In the case of Wakefield, he kindly arranged for most of his exposure as a research cheat to be paid for by his insurance company."

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake (N. Buonaparte).

Unfortunately, the true believers are convinced that some shadowy and nefarious pharmaceutical cabal paid Mr Deer off, just as they are now convinced that Dr Thompson has been bought.

I have to say that I've never worked for the CDC, but during my short career as a bureaucrat I won a couple of performance awards, and none of them came with any cash attached. Does anyone know if Dr Thompson's performance award brought any sort of financial reward other than, possibly, a merit increase?

All we perceive are shadows on the walls of Al Capone's vault?

I see Seneff at the far right of the video (didn't listen yet, not sure I want to). Does she look like a grandma? (nothing against grandmas of this world, except for the dachelbot).

Alain

"Unfortunately, the true believers are convinced that some shadowy and nefarious pharmaceutical cabal paid Mr Deer off, just as they are now convinced that Dr Thompson has been bought."

I think if they'd paid me off, I would have bought a car.

Or, if I were paid off with as much case as Mike Adams, Jake Crosby, and their fellow loons seem to think, a yacht...

Brian Deer & Orac,

This one?

Alain

If Dr. Thompson received a merit award it tells us several things: 1. Dr. Thompson wants to be at CDC and is trying hard to stay there; 2. CDC wants Dr. Thompson.

I would bet that sometime in the past CDC and Dr. Thompson came to an agreement (probably in a performance eval) that Dr. Thompson would not associate himself with certain people professionally.

Hooker admits that he has had no recent contact with Thompson, yet he somehow "knows" that he has been bought off by the CDC and/or BigPharma. How does he "know" that? Of course he doesn't "know" that; it should be bleedin obvious that he is just making that up as it suits his narrative.

OT but please please give this, "pastoral-medicine," the Orac treatment?

Kthxbai

" he claims Thompson laughed uproariously when he found out"

Assume for the sake of argument that Hooker isn't making this up.

Now imagine Thompson talking to his wife:

"Hey, remember how I hid from you the fact that I was talking to Brian Hooker and later told you? Well he's been secretly recording my phone calls. Hahahahaha. Don't you get it? Isn't that funny? Haha? Er, honey?"

Or,

"So, as my attorney perhaps you should know that Brian Hooker was secretly taping my phone calls. Hehehehehe. Hello? Are you still on the line?"

"I see Seneff at the far right of the video"

Yep. And she ties in her "roundup did it" by saying it works synergistically with the MMR vaccine.

It's just amazing. Not in the "that's so amazing that's good" way. No, the other way.

"My understanding all along is that Thompson has had a highly paid lawyer who,"

I seem to recall, perhaps in the call transcripts, that the attorney is working free.

"Total box office receipts were $119,000 as of 4/22/16"

It's actually respectable for a small documentary like this. It's already at #7 highest grossing film for the distributor. But I worked it out that they are getting about 91 people a day (not showing, a day) on weekends for their recent screenings.

Much of their take is for personal appearances by Wakefield. He was supposed to do 2 appearances opening weekend, but they quickly realized that the only way to pad the box office stats was to have Wakefield be present for a lot more. Well, that and they've been buying tickets to either give away or throw away (there are many facebook discussions of people buying tickets on the hopes that someone can use them).

Wakefield stated a while back that his goal was to influence the election this year. See that happening? Even Donald Trump talking up Vaxxed?

No one is going to do a hearing in an election year based on this.

As advertisement for Andrew Wakefield, it's a success. And who really thought they were working on anything else?

"If Dr. Thompson received a merit award it tells us several things"

Thompson stated he was given one in his public statement through his attorney.

For people who think that was payoff to keep quiet, yeah, like the government works that fast. Keep believing. Obviously this was in the works before the story went public.

Air fare, hotels, and meals for 5 aren’t cheap, especially in Manhattan or LA. I think it’s a safe bet none of them are traveling economy.

I looked up the US Government per diem rates for New York City. (Many academics, including myself, use these rates for budget guidelines and meal reimbursement--Seneff may be accustomed to these rates as well, since she works at MIT.) For April 2016 the hotel rate is $270 per night (plus tax) and the meals rate is $74. I'll assume that the actual reimbursement was about double that. Travel costs will vary widely: Seneff could take the Acela train for a few hundred bucks, while Hooker, being from California, would probably cost at least $3k. Let's take $2500 as an average. They'd only need one hotel night each, and two days worth of meals per diem. If Wakefield is covering the costs, he's probably deducting the expense rather than paying himself, so we have six people to pay for. That comes to around $3300 per person, not including honoraria--call that $2k for Atkisson and $1k for everybody else, just to put numbers on it. Which adds up to about $27k for the whole thing.

That's a pretty loose estimate: it could easily be double that, or half that. But unless Wakefield is getting exceptionally good bargains or horrifically overpaying, it shouldn't be much outside that range.

That wouldn't be that much for a film with respectable box office numbers, but it is a lot for a film like this. There should be other production expenses, too, so this film will (like most films aimed at the documentary market, as this one is) be doing well to break even after expenses.

Hooker's source for the rumour that Thompson will publish an exoneration of MMR in May?
Thompson's lawyer.

Hooker press release. Should be good for another chapter in the RI demolition of the "Whistleblower Fraud".
https://www.focusforhealth.org/dr-brian-hooker-statement-william-thomps…

Hooker doesn't trust any analysis coming out of the CDC. Imagine that, a man who had his analysis unceremoniously retracted for COI and inept science doesn't trust someone else's analysis.
Hahahaha!
Pull the other one, BS.

"Yup. A rehash of the same dataset is just dumb. "

First off, so how exactly does Hooker know what's going on at CDC? He doesn't.

Let's assume that somehow he found out that the CDC submitted a paper This from the guy who had no idea that CDC were working on the SEED project. (For those outside of the autism research community, it's like saying someone who claims interest in particle physics didn't know that there was a project to find the Higgs Boson).

CDC and Thompson looked at that data for years. A reanalysis would make zero sense.

However, there are multiple datasets since that might be available for doing a race based analysis on MMR and autism. SEED, or other datasets from existing studies. It's possible that CDC would do a study on another dataset. Wouldn't this be *exactly* what a true advocate want? Isn't this *exactly* what Brian Hooker asked for in the conclusion of his (now retracted) paper? (answer--yes, it is. He called for more studies).

All this goes to why there's no point in funding autism/vaccine studies for these guys. No matter how many studies, they will be denied by Brian Hooker et al..

Frankly I do hope there's an analysis coming out with a detailed race breakdown. I know people in the African American autism community who want such a study. I'd rather not spend more money on such a study, but if CDC have one in the works, I welcome it. No matter the answer.

Oooh. I wonder if my post had anything to do with Hooker's deciding to publish a press release today. :-)

" If Wakefield is covering the costs, he’s probably deducting the expense rather than paying himself, so we have six people to pay for."

Wakefield made his "Autism Media Channel" into a charity.

And he's got a lot of wealthy backers. Mark Blaxill is one of the lesser ones.

"Very recently, Mr. Richard Morgan, Esq., Dr. Thompson’s whistle blower attorney, stated that Dr. Thompson will be publishing a paper in May, 2016, where he will assert that the MMR vaccine is not linked to autism in African American males. Instead Dr. Thompson will state that socioeconomic factors alone in the African American community account for the original MMR-African American male “effect” (the effect that he is on record as stating the CDC purposefully hid). I have not been given access to Dr. Thompson’s reanalysis and therefore cannot comment regarding the forthcoming paper at this time. However, I am suspect of any analysis coming from the CDC due to the historic nature of the agency’s scientific misconduct and conflicts of interest specifically around any link between vaccines and autism."

Interesting. Where does the attorney state that?

As BD notes, VAXXED puts forth a thesis it can't support: William Thomspon 1) alleged fraud to cover 2) the CDC knew vaccines cause autism. He claims neither in the Hooker transcripts. ( I got a .pdf of the Whistleblower book, OCRed it to make a searchable text file, and WT never uses the word "fraud" in any form...) I've been thinking at some point Hooker is going to have to claim WT framed things as fraud-hiding-MMR-causation in some conversation he didn't record. With VAXXED going so all-in on this narrative, the show has to drop at some point since there's nothing really AV there. The more publicity about VAXXED gets circulated, the more the pressure on Thompson to say or do something clarifying where he stands, beyond that statement authored by Rick Morgan. Hooker's "handled" remark not only gets 'ahead' of developments on the WT front, but may ease the pressure on WT enough that he stays guiet. What make any further statement if they're just going to discount it anyway?

Another player to consider here is Bill Posey. He appears to have been playing politics in trying to appear to be demanding a House hearing w/o actually ever taking action. VAXXED could be turning up the heat on him to deliver something. But now he has an excuse: Thompson has been "handled" so the star witness has become unavailable.

Everythng can still be attributed to murky conspiratorial finagling hidden away from view.

On thing that remains murky to me is exactly why Thompson wanted that AA male data in the published paper in the first place. He seems to pretty clearly have known vaccines don't cause autism. One possibility is that he just wanted all the 't's crossed and 'i's dotted, and his colleagues were so dismissive about the request he fixated, everything snowballed, the personal relationships got worse and worse, and he eventually hatched a revenge plot based almost entirely on personal pique. But such a thesis would mean an awful lot of what he said to Hooker was false or faked.

However, it's occurred to me that his comments about "having great shame" and autism research being set back might be mostly genuine, but not about MMR causation. He says stuff about the CDC being so scared of autism they've gone into a hole, and aren't doing anything. Hooker assumes that 'doing something' would be proving 'it's the vaccines', but maybe Thompson thinks it should be something else, and the AA data was either a clue to that, or somehow publishing it might be a prod to further research in general. Of course, this makes the fact he contacted Hooker ironic, in that the reason CDC would be "scared of autism research" is the political power of the AJW-fueled anti-vax movement. But it kind of makes sense that the CDC was pushed into a corner where all they were doing about autism was saying "It's not the vaccines. Done." But if WT's goal was to get a congressional hearing that would create an opening to push CDC towards other/new areas of autism research, where ese was he going to go — as delusional as hoping that would ever spin back away from anti-vax may have been. But how else do we explain that he reached out to an anti-vax 'scientist' yet never affirmed a Wakefieldian anti-vax thesis, and was trying to get Hooker to "change his mantra" to 'Thimerisal causes tics'?

I have always thought the supposed text exchanges between Thompson and Wakefield were fabricated, and that WT would be POed about that, but would refrain from calling Andy out on that as part of his attorney-advised choice to stay as far away from more of this mess as possible....

In sum, then, I can't help but read this Thompson gossip with the hope that we might someday learn WTF he was actually trying to do with Hooker, and what exactly he thought the CDC should have been doing about autism research. Alas, Hooker (along with Bigtree and Diaz) are just spewing any BS they can think of to promote VAXXED (and I'm convinced they all know they're BSing...) so Hooker's 'revelation' is likely no more than piss hitting the window.

(It's always nice to come home to replies by brilliant people)

To clear up a few things:

Eric. I meant that AJW in real life was the investigatED not the investigatEE .

Sarah, they aren't really talking about obesity although it is a serious issue in the western world- they mean ASD, ADHD, asthma, allergies, cancer and various other conditions that add up to 50%
( see the Canary Party Manifesto/ Health Choice)- that's Blaxill *et compagnie( as per usual..

Now wouldn't 24000 USD be enough to purchase.....
a CAR?

OK, maybe not the type Orac dirves ( Maserati Quatrroporte IIRC) but a car nevertheless.

Of course I'm JOKING
.
I wouldn't want Mikey A to report that " deep sources tell him that one of Orac's minions insinuated that Mr Deer was paid off in cars by Rupert Murdoch" and that Orac has a silver Maserati or that Thompson has a new Toyota now.

Correction:

AJW was the investigatED not the INVESTIGATOR.

"I have not been given access to Dr. Thompson’s reanalysis and therefore cannot comment regarding the forthcoming paper at this time. "

Because Brian Hooker has demonstrated such a firm understanding of epidemiology?

Hooker bashes the paper and then says he can't comment on it. Right. Anyone want to take a guess at what Hooker will say about the paper if/when it is published? I'll put $10 on "It's bad. It's corrupt. He should have done a "simple" analysis."

Any takers?

Nice how the first comment on the Focus for Health page with the press release is from an HIV/AIDS denialist. Yep, good company you keep there Hooker. From 9/11 Truthers to AIDS denialists, anyone who supports you can't be called out.

So, Hooker says this:

"Rather than reporting the results to the public, all data regarding this relationship were destroyed at a secret meeting held some time in August/September of 2002. This fact has been affirmed via an affidavit given by Dr. Thompson to Rep. Bill Posey in September, 2014."

And in an affidavit dated September 9 2014, Thompson said:

“All the associated MMR-Autism Study computer files have been retained on the Immunization Safety Office computer servers since the inception of the study and they continue to reside there today.”

@ Matt Carey:

And he's not the first Hiv/ Aids denialist involved with this group- there's Celia Farber as well.

I have not been given access to Dr. Thompson’s reanalysis and therefore cannot comment regarding the forthcoming paper at this time.

As if Hooker is even remotely qualified to comment on an epidemiological study.

However, I am suspect of any analysis coming from the CDC due to the historic nature of the agency’s scientific misconduct and conflicts of interest specifically around any link between vaccines and autism.

Wait wait...When the CDC produces a result that Hooker likes, it's reliable but readily discounts something that hasn't even yet been published.

Yes indeed, the crew are trying to get out ahead of any refutation to their claim. So what is their movie based on again? Hahahaha

"Personally, I predict a massive medical uprising against vaccine mandates. I also predict that every propaganda effort by the CDC will ultimately backfire."

Sure. Massive uprising. I'll mark my calendar.

And the CDC's efforts to inform the public will backfire. Yep. Remember when Vaxxed hit the news and the press thought, "well, let's give this Andy Wakefield guy another chance, shall we?"

Which is to say, someone needs to get out of his echo chamber.

Thompson in his original statement made it clear that he was willing to work with people inside and out of CDC on vaccines and autism.

But, hey, Brian only wanted Thompson to work with him. You know, walk away from his job and family and join the ConspiraSea Cruise circuit and write oh-so-excellent papers with Hooker and the Geiers and all that.

Brian Hooker seems to live in an alternate reality.

The question I have for the author of this blog as well as the readers and others who have commented, have any of you actually watched the movie Vaxxed? I ask this only because I have watched the movie, and after reading the indictments in this blog toward Hooker, Wakefield, et al., it seems apparent that there is considerable assumptions being made about the data that was being presented in the movie. Assumptions built on verbose straw man arguments cloaked in science jargon. For example, the following accusatory statements are completely based on assumption and speculation with no factual evidence to support the statement: 1) He analyzed a dataset designed for a case control study as a cohort study, 2) Hooker tortured the data until it confessed what he wanted it to, but even then it didn’t confess all that he wanted, 3) the only “result” he could produce was an association between MMR and autism in African-American males, 4) he basically proved Wakefield wrong, because there wasn’t a hint of a whiff of a whisper of a positive correlation in any other group, 5) he had to do the wrong analysis to “show” a correlation in African-American boys. Accusations 1 and 2 above are based off of pure speculation with no hard evidence; if you actually watch the movie, you will discover that Thompson admitted that the "official" CDC study deviated from their original analysis plan after a link to autism was discovered; once the CDC deviated to an alternate analysis plan, the data sample was reduced from 3000 to 1800, and although a link between MMR and autism was still present in the revised, official data sample, it was determined statistically insignificant (due to the reduced sample size) and thus dismissed from the official findings and conclusions. On to accusation number 3 above, this is just patently false, disinformation that one must have no other choice but to fabricate in a vacuum, unless of course you actually watch the movie to see for yourself; if you actually watch the movie, you'll discover that increasing the data sample to what was supposed to be the original CDC analysis data sample, the link to autism wasn't just isolated to African-American males; in fact, it was also linked to white males. More disturbingly, they examined cases of what is known as "isolated autism", in other words, autism that is present in children who have no other debilitating health conditions or diagnosed disorders. What they found is an alarming risk factor that leads to a 700% increased risk for isolated autism; translation: children who are completely healthy without any previously compromised immune system or neurological disorders are most at risk for autism after taking MMR. Furthermore, they broke the data down even further and discovered an increased risk before 36 months. On to accusation #4, there was nothing to prove Wakefield wrong about, as Wakefield himself admitted (both in his retracted paper) as well as in the movie that he never personally discovered a causal link between MMR and Autism (the only thing Wakefield points out is a positive correlation, but he correctly admits that this does not automatically infer causation), and that the only thing he advocated for were the following: a) conducting more research to conclusively determine a causal link between MMR and Autism and b) giving parents the option to immunize their children using single-dosage vaccines rather than poly or triplicate dosage vaccines until further research provides more conclusive evidence of a real link. The interesting thing is that shortly after Wakefield went public with this recommendation (both in his paper as well as during an open press conference shortly after his paper was published), the vaccine industry shut down the single-dose vaccine option and forced the governments of the UK, US, and other countries to only accept the MMR vaccine. Interestingly enough, Japan was smart enough to do their own research and independently verify that the MMR was dangerous to infants, so much so that they banned MMR and only allow single-dose vaccines. All of this of course is long before the controversy with Thimerisol was discovered, but I digress. On to accusation #5, see my response to accusation #1. In summary, this is totally false, disinformation about the facts presented in this movie that there's no way that the blog of this author, in all intellectual honesty and integrity, could have actually watched this movie well likewise espousing these opinions.

@David
"1) He analyzed a dataset designed for a case control study as a cohort study"

If you read that paper, that is exactly what it did. That is why it was retracted. He did the wrong analysis. Do you think it is acceptable to use the analysis for cohort studies on data collected for a case control design?

There is no speculation there. He got it wrong. No conspiracy there.

(I'll try this again to see if the html works right):

There's not enough prescription-strength Blaxill&#8482 in the world to cure this kind of crazy.

Ach! Sorry, that's supposed to be a 'trademark' symbol. As someone said on another thread, preview functions are for sissies.

@ palindrom:

I do it as: Blaxill (tm)

i.e Name. space left parenthesis no space tm no space right parenthesis

#65 David, I doubt whether anyone here will wish to engage with your list, as many of us are very familiar with Andrew Wakefield. We don't really need to be told that, if only we accepted what was in his film, then we would understand the truth.

Perhaps however, you could complete your argument by addressing the following point you make: "Japan was smart enough to do their own research and independently verify that the MMR was dangerous to infants, so much so that they banned MMR and only allow single-dose vaccines."

If Japan was so smart, what happened to the incidence of autism in Japan?

Poor David, another Wakefraud fanboi who needs his information served to him via movies. Just out of the gate one can look at DeStefano's study description and Hooker's. But ooo, that's hard science stuff.

Mephistopheles O'Brien@38: <doffs cap>

David: "Assumptions built on verbose straw man arguments cloaked in science jargon."

At least Orac knows how to use paragraphs.

"Interestingly enough, Japan was smart enough to do their own research and independently verify that the MMR was dangerous to infants, so much so that they banned MMR and only allow single-dose vaccines."

Which is very wrong. See:
J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan

and:
J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.
No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study

And children actually died. from Measles vaccine coverage and factors related to uncompleted vaccination among 18-month-old and 36-month-old children in Kyoto, Japan:

In 1993, the Ministry of Health and Welfare (MHW) withdrew the domestically produced MMR vaccine [9]. As of 1994, an amendment to the Immunization Law made vaccination voluntary and not mandatory. According to the present law, a single dose of measles vaccine is recommended for children over one year of age. Children are eligible to receive measles vaccination after 12 months following birth but not beyond 90 months. Until January 2004, adminisiration of measles vaccine was recommended between 12 and 24 months of age, instead of between 12 and 15 months when children have the greatest risk of contracting measles [10]. In Japan, measles vaccine coverage has remained low, and either small or moderate outbreaks have occurred repeatedly in communities. According to an infectious disease surveillance (2000), total measles cases were estimated to be from 180,000 to 210,000, and total deaths were estimated to be 88 [11,12]. Measles cases are most frequently observed among non-immunized children, particularly between 12 to 24 months.

In summary, the politically motivated vaccine decisions in Japan did not reduce autism, but it did kill lots of small children. David, you need to do better "research."

David@65: While I'm sure folks here enjoy nothing more than tearing into the Sainted Andy's mendacious bullshıt, alas our review copies appear to have been tragically lost in the mail. Along with your weekly supply of paragraphs, apparently.

N=5 wasn't good enough for Hooker so he changed the lower end of the age range to increase the population size. N<10, but was greater than 5 and was then good enough. Was that the population size he used or am I misreading?

"you will discover that Thompson admitted that the “official” CDC study deviated from their original analysis plan after a link to autism was discovered"

Did you really see the film? I ask because this was the argument Wakefield and Hooker were making before the film. They now are not claiming that the change was made after the analysis.

They had to change that because the documents prove that claim was false.

In the movie they claim that the protocol called for the race variable to be taken from school records but that the researchers shifted to taking the race variable from birth certificates.

Which is also false. Would you like a copy of the analysis plan, the protocol so you can read for yourself?

Ugh. My state senator Patrick Colbeck is at it again. Before he promoted Trace Amounts:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/04/28/an-antivaccine-sympathetic…

Now he's promoting VAXXED:

https://www.facebook.com/senatorpatrickcolbeck/posts/1095504847174602

Brian Deer@70: If Wakefield's impeccably evidence-based documentary just isn't doing it for you, how about one that proves beyond doubt that souless autistic behaviors are caused by frustrated aliens shooting electrodes into the pituitary glands of the recently deceased? After all, it's all on film so it must be true.

Col. Edwards: This is the most fantastic story I've ever heard.

Jeff: And every word of it's true, too.

Col. Edwards: That's the fantastic part of it.

David: "Wakefield himself admitted (both in his retracted paper) as well as in the movie that he never personally discovered a causal link between MMR and Autism..and that the only thing he advocated for were the following: a) conducting more research to conclusively determine a causal link between MMR and Autism and b) giving parents the option to immunize their children using single-dosage vaccines rather than poly or triplicate dosage vaccines until further research provides more conclusive evidence of a real link."

So why then has Wakefield quite recently declared that the MMR vaccine definitely causes autism?

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/20/andrew-wakefield-father-anti-vaccine…

If he was being ultra-cautious back when his fraudulent research was published, then where is the "conclusive evidence of a real link" that now permits him to claim that MMR causes autism?

"What they found is an alarming risk factor that leads to a 700% increased risk for isolated autism"

Where the heck did you get 700% from?

Want the real number? Check the original study. De Stefano et al. It is in there. Under autism without mental retardation.

Yep. It was never hidden. Why Thompson decided it was, and why Hooker and Wakefield never bothered to check the facts (or ignored them, more likely) is an open question.

(Bonus: you won't be charged 10 bucks just to learn the Truth either.)

Ruviana
OT but please please give this, “pastoral-medicine,” the Orac treatment?

Did someone mention the "pastoral-medicine" scam?
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/04/25/475165193/pastoral-…
Grifters claiming that their grifting is actually Religious Freedom.

Forget it, Ruviana, it's Texas.

" Watch for CNN to roll out its usual lineup of sellout doctors and pharma shills. Watch for a major ratcheting up of attacks against Dr. Wakefield and the VAXXED film. Just as importantly, watch out for social media to be taken over by social engineering robots who vilify and shame anyone that questions vaccine safety."

Who's going to bother ratcheting up attacks against Wakefraud and VAXXED?
Sure, Wakefraud will come under criticism whenever he says something egregious (which is, I suppose, often enough); but I predict that VAXXED is going to quietly die of paucity of audience and won't draw further attack unless some other gullible big-name tries to use personal privilege to get it shown at a film festival (the AofA docu-drama festival doesn't count)..

So, we have the claim that
"For example, the following accusatory statements are completely based on assumption and speculation with no factual evidence to support the statement: 1) He analyzed a dataset designed for a case control study as a cohort study"

Is an accusation based on pure speculation.

Hmmmm.

From the CDC paper:

"Methods. A case-control study was conducted in metropolitan Atlanta."

From Hooker's retracted paper:

"In this paper, we present the results of a cohort study using the same data from the Destefano et al. [14] analysis."

Is it "pure speculation" to read the papers you are commenting on, David?

Did you read them or did you misunderstand them?

Japan [...] banned MMR and only allow single-dose vaccines.

One of these days, one of these disingenuous do-your-own-research gombeens will explain what penalty is exacted, under Japanese law, for possession of the "banned" vaccine. But I'm not holding my breath.

I really detest that guys like David parrot the brain dead lies about the consequences of what happened with Japan makes political rather than scientific decisions on vaccines. Decisions that killed kids with pertussis in the 1970s, killed kids with measles a bit over a decade ago, and is now contributing to increases in congenital rubella syndrome.

David and his fellow Wakefield fanbois just blindly believe what they read on certain websites, and don't even bother to check what really happen. It is not a secret, they are all there in the PubMed index. But actually following up on the stuff they read requires they actually open their brain and do some work. Apparently that is not allowed on Htrae.

@Craig Payne: My refutation of that statement had to do with the totality of the reanalysis data and methods as presented in the movie, which was 2 years after Hooker's paper was submitted to publication, which was, that the movie detailed a far broader analysis dataset that looked beyond the constrained dataset of AA males. Hooker's paper is constrained to AA males, so for me that's not a broad enough dataset. The movie provides facts based on the full dataset as utilized by the CDC. Furthermore, unless you are a formal peer reviewer or an employee of the publication journal, you're only speculating as to the real reason why Hooker's paper was retracted.

The movie provide no facts on that. You seriously being misled or misunderstanding this.
The real reason that the paper was retracted was the faulty analysis that he used. Nothing more than that. He got it wrong. There is not a statistician or epidemiologist that agree with the way he did it. I ask you again: do you think it is acceptable to use cohort data analysis methods on data that was collected for a case control study?

Sarah, they aren’t really talking about obesity although it is a serious issue in the western world- they mean ASD, ADHD, asthma, allergies, cancer and various other conditions that add up to 50%

One common reference is this, but there's another one that's not coming to me at the moment which points out that "chronic" does not necessarily mean "lifelong."

Hooker’s paper is constrained to AA males

Why no, it's not.

so for me that’s not a broad enough dataset. The movie provides facts based on the full dataset as utilized by the CDC.

Which Hooker had. Have you not read the freaking paper?

Which Hooker had. Have you not read the freaking paper?

But he watched the movie. That's totes the same isn't it?

Narad: "Which Hooker had. Have you not read the freaking paper?"

Of course not, that requires that he actually make some kind of effort.

Furthermore, unless you are a formal peer reviewer or an employee of the publication journal, you’re only speculating as to the real reason why Hooker’s paper was retracted.

The journal's statement is clear enough:

there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings.

David might prefer to believe that there is a real reason other than this description of Hooker's incompetence and mendacity, but unless David is a formal peer reviewer or an employee of the publication journal, he's only speculating.

" Furthermore, unless you are a formal peer reviewer or an employee of the publication journal, you’re only speculating as to the real reason why Hooker’s paper was retracted."

Or he read the retraction notice.
http://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118…

"The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article [1] as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings. We apologise to all affected parties for the inconvenience caused."

Let's repeat one segment for emphasis (because Wakefield and Hooker always ignore it):

"Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings."

HDB@82: ISWYDT. Man, the minions are on form tonight.

"hat the movie detailed a far broader analysis dataset that looked beyond the constrained dataset of AA males. "

Nope.

They say the same thing. African American Males (about half way through the film), and "isolated autism".

I have an audio recording of the film. Which I've listened to multiple times. And compared the statements made to facts whenever possible.

But you saw it and believed everything and checked nothing, right?

"the movie provides facts based on the full dataset as utilized by the CDC. "

Such as? Be specific. If you could give a rough time within the film that these "facts" are presented it would help.

The interesting thing is that shortly after Wakefield went public with this recommendation (both in his paper as well as during an open press conference shortly after his paper was published), the vaccine industry shut down the single-dose vaccine option and forced the governments of the UK, US, and other countries to only accept the MMR vaccine.

I don't know that I would call ten years (PDF) "shortly after."

Unless you are a formal peer reviewer or an employee of the publication journal, you’re only speculating as to the real reason why Hooker’s paper was retracted.

Well, it's pretty clear that it was due to dishonesty and incompetence. Here's the statement from the journal:

The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings.

Brian Deer says (#70),

If Japan was so smart, what happened to the incidence of autism in Japan?

MJD says,

No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism in Japan.

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/vaccines/nommr.html

Although we are getting smarter about vaccine allergens that may affect the incidence of allergy-induced regressive autism:

http://www.worldallergy.org/ask-the-expert/questions/mmr-vaccine

Orac,

I well-understand you have a fetish about vaccinations.

But do you ever write about anything else,
specifically, about health subjects that have led to more deaths?
(You don’t mention, at least in this article, how many deaths are attributed to no-vaxers’ efforts.)

For example, do you ever write about the suicide rate in the U.S. being at its highest in decades?

I understand that
-The suicide rate increased for white middle-aged women by 80 percent from 1999–2014,
-The overall suicide rate for white, middle-age Americans spiked 40% in the last 10 years,
-Drug overdoses (i.e. *possible* suicides) among young whites quintupled from 1999 to 2014.

And the Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences says that
“If the white mortality rate for ages 45−54 had held at their 1998 value, 96,000 deaths would have been avoided from 1999–2013, 7,000 in 2013 alone. If it had continued to decline at its previous (1979‒1998) rate, half a million deaths would have been avoided in the period 1999‒2013, comparable to lives lost in the US AIDS epidemic through mid-2015.”

Do you ever write about such clearly-lethal medical issues?

The single measles vaccine talking point by Wakefield is a red herring.

He recommended--with zero evidence provided--the single vaccines. Here's his amazing recommendation from the video that was presented:

"DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD: My opinion, again, is that the monovalent, the single vaccines, measles, mumps and rubella, are likely in this context to be safer than the polyvalent vaccine."

Yes, he scares people (without evidence) and says, "well, gee, perhaps it's safer to use the single vaccine".

I wonder if our new friend can see the multiple ways that was a bad move by Wakefield.
How about this:

"DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD: Well as yet we don’t know, but there is no doubt that if you give three viruses together, three live viruses, then you potentially increase the risk of an adverse event occurring, particularly when one of those viruses influences the immune system in the way that measles does. And it may be - and studies will show this or not - that giving the measles on its own reduces the risk of this particular syndrome developing."

so much badness. Giving the single vaccine reduces the risk? So it's not gone altogether? And he's basically saying "elsewhere I say this isn't proven but here I'm saying it's real and you can reduce the risk by using a single vaccine".

Funny how Wakefield's supporters repeat what he says, but don't check the facts.

brian @99:
Well, it’s pretty clear that it was due to dishonesty and incompetence. Here’s the statement from the journal:

No, no, those are only the stated reasons; David is talking about the real reasons, the existence of which he is certain, because Truther.

@Bryan Deer: I don't doubt most of the folks here are familiar with Wakefield, but the bigger question is how many of you here have attempted to directly confront Wakefield and have a conversation with him? There are two sides to every story.

That aside, you raise an interesting point about your question on the rate of Autism in Japan in the post-MMR ban period. Sure, the rates have increased, but the increase is linear, as opposed to the exponential increase we have seen in the U.S. in the last several decades. A linear increase in Autism cases can be most likely attributed to improved detection methods and diagnosis across the entire ASD spectrum. On the other hand, a consistently non-linear increase cannot be merely explained by improved methods of detection and diagnosis. Such an anomaly can only be explained by causal factors that are present in this country that are not present in other countries such as Japan. No one here can deny that there is currently no scientific consensus on the probable causes of ASD, and I would postulate that this is because there may be many causes from a variety of sources including genetic, environmental, and biological/chemical. I would further postulate that due to the complexity of possible causes of ASD, it is difficult to isolate a placebo control group for a long-term study, particularly among children where this seems to be the demographic experiencing the rapid rise in ASD diagnosis.

Given all of that, can you postulate as to why the CDC has yet to do any long-term studies on exposure to MMR and isolated ingredients in MMR such as Thimerisol (i.e., ethyl mercury)? Or why the CDC has yet to perform a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, comparing prevalence of ASD in non-vaccinated children to vaccinated children?

@Matt Carey, I would just implore you to watch the movie for yourself and let you be the judge. What I express is only my opinion for all its worth. The underlying cause of my refutation in this blog is the prevailing narrative being circulated here is not reflecting what is actually being presented in the movie, thus suggesting that those circulating these opinions have not actually seen the movie, or if they have seen the movie then they are conveniently leaving out the additional information that is vital to the total narrative being communicated by the movie.

Sure, the rates have increased, but the increase is linear, as opposed to the exponential increase we have seen in the U.S.

What would that exponent be?

@Matt Carey: Certainly, you can find audio clips from the movie that discuss the AA male portion of the study, that is true. But my point is that the movie goes much further than that. You just need to see the movie in its totality before casting a final verdict. I just saw the movie last night, and I will admit I'm still digesting all of this information and doing my own research, which is hard to do in 24 hours. Certainly going on blogs such as this is not sufficient for doing due diligence in verifying the facts of any movie purporting to provide scientific facts and analysis.

David, it's sort of funny that you don't understand that MMR doesn't contain thimerosal and that you can't even spell the name of the ingredient that MMR does not now and has never contained. You must be rather new to this.

@Narad: Here is an example: https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2005/03/dn7076…; This is graphic is explained in further detail here: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ba…

Given all of that, can you postulate as to why the CDC has yet to do any long-term studies on exposure to MMR and isolated ingredients in MMR such as Thimerisol (i.e., ethyl mercury)?

You're really not very good at this.

Or why the CDC has yet to perform a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, comparing prevalence of ASD in non-vaccinated children to vaccinated children?

Specify the level of similarity between the two groups that would convince you that there's nothing there, and you shall have your sample size (leaving aside the endlessly pointed out ethical impossibility of what you described).

@Narad: Here is an example

Um, no. You used the word "exponential." I want the functional form, to demonstrate that you know what the word means.

@Bryan, typos are more common than you might think in these types of exchanges, so if you want to discredit my opinion based on a typo, feel free but that's really a cheap shot if you ask me. Now if I were a professional blogger such as yourself, perhaps I would be more cautious with my spell checking.

I can't personally state equivocally whether or not MMR never historically contained thimerosal, but only that MMR in conjunction with vaccines that contained thimerosal have been suggested to be a causal factor in the development of ASD. For example, claimants in the U.S. National Vaccine Injury Compensation (NVIC) program who were able to receive compensation for ASD injuries alleged to be caused by MMR/Thimerosal, which lasted until 2004, which was when De Stefano et al. 2004 CDC paper was published. After this publication, the NVIC court has refused 100% of all ASD claims linked to MMR and/or Thimerosal-containing vaccines.

Anyone here who isn't familiar with the NVIC should know that it was enacted in 1986 by Congress which provides total legal immunity to drug companies in the event of an injury or adverse reaction that would allegedly be related to a vaccine created by the drug company. This protection does not apply to any other pharmaceutical drug created by these same companies.

@Narad: So you want to have a meaning of words debate? No thanks. Just take a look at the data yourself, I just presented it to you, and tell whether you think that chart mathematically represents an exponential rate of change. I don't have the time or the energy to walk you through a mathematical regression, but visually it should be obvious for anyone who has taken a basic statistics course.

Narad, I doubt he knows what "exponent" even means.

Hey, David what about these studies:

Vaccine. 2015 May 15;33(21):2511-6. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2014.12.036. Epub 2015 Jan 3.Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2012.01.093. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: the first case-control study in Asia

Early exposure to the combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines and risk of autism spectrum disorder.

Oh, crud what happened?

Vaccine. 2015 May 15;33(21):2511-6. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2014.12.036. Epub 2015 Jan 3.
Early exposure to the combined measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines and risk of autism spectrum disorder.

Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2012.01.093. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: the first case-control study in Asia.

David, ever here about the man that brought a knife to a gun fight? It didn't last long.

I would politely suggest that watching a propaganda movie will not provide you with any information of actual value.

I am indeed starting to feel a bit embarrassed for David. He's clearly new at this and clearly not very familiar with the background. He strikes me as a newbie antivaxers who's just discovered all the claims of vaccine harm and anxious to show off his newfound knowledge. Unfortunately, he seems not to have figured out that he is nowhere near the first (this blog's been around 11 years now) and no study or argument he's yet presented is anything we haven't seen and dealt with dozens, if not hundreds, of times over the last 11+ years.

@Matt Carey: So what makes Wakefield's single vaccine opinion a Red Herring? His opinion is based on decades of proven science that the single Measles vaccine, in isolation, as it's been used for decades before the MMR vaccine came into existence, has a proven efficacy and safety track record through examination of long term epidemiology with over 50 years of documented use throughout the world. Basing an opinion on historical knowledge is problematic until you begin to extrapolate, which is what the Merck did by assuming that the existing track record of the single, isolated Measles vaccine's proven safety record was enough for them to launch a more cost-effective MMR vaccine. Unfortunately, there's not nearly the level of scientific research or long-term health studies to look at the efficacy and safety of MMR compared to the singular Measles vaccine. Wakefield is merely acknowledging historical facts and advocating for more research to provide more conclusive evidence and understanding on the long-term safety of MMR.

Please explain what makes this statement a Red Herring.

Correction on above comment: "Basing an opinion on historical knowledge is *NOT* problematic until you begin to extrapolate..."

His opinion is based on decades of proven science that the single Measles vaccine, in isolation, as it’s been used for decades before the MMR vaccine came into existence, has a proven efficacy and safety track record through examination of long term epidemiology with over 50 years of documented use throughout the world.

When was the first measles vaccine David?
In the US it was licensed in 1963.

When was MMR introduced David?
In the US it was licensed in 1971.

I'll repeat this bit that you wrote

... as it’s been used for decades before the MMR vaccine came into existence...

Can you explain to me how the time between 1963 and 1971 became decades?

@Orac: I'm not embarrassed to admit I am new at this, but I am stunned at the shameless, dogmatic attitudes and opinions that are expressed in light of the fact that most of you here have only seen clips and brief audio segments of a movie that you have not seen in its entirety. Sure, perhaps it is a propaganda piece, but at least my mind is open to that idea as well as the idea that maybe there is some truth in it that warrants further discussion and inquiry. However, I'm gradually beginning to discover that there is a prevailing cognitive resistance to changing a prevailing opinion, no matter what facts are presented. What is most embarrassing however is the level of effort devoted to deconstructing a narrative without one having fully heard the complete narrative. That my friend is intellectual dishonesty.

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it. VAXXED will be in my town this weekend.

And intellectual dishonesty is Wakefield. Indeed, Matt explained how he dishonestly spliced together two statements from William Thompson:

https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/03/22/andrew-wakefield-releases-…

That's just the trailer. And we've heard from others:

https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/04/02/movie-review-vaxxed/

And we know from Wakefield's own description of the movie that it's bullshit:

https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/04/21/why-do-people-have-to-see-…

That doesn't even take into account Wakefield's 18+ year history of mendacity, lies, and pseudoscience, not to mention the bullshit that is the "CDC whistleblower" story at the heart of Wakefield's movie:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-whistleblower-an-antivacci…

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/review-of-vaccine-whistleblower-a-…

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/brian-hooker-and-andrew-wakefield-…

Or that Brian Hooker's "reanalysis" was incompetent at best, dishonest at worst.

No. The only intellectual dishonesty is coming from Wakefield and his minions.

I can’t personally state equivocally whether or not MMR never historically contained thimerosal

I suppose that you can't state unequivocally that MMR never contained thimerosal, either, but perhaps you should ask yourself what effect thimerosal would have had on the viruses in the MMR preparation.

What is most embarrassing however is the level of effort devoted to deconstructing a narrative without one having fully heard the complete narrative.

Try doing a search for "CDCwhistleblower" on this blog. We've heard the narrative already. It is not something new, but something that anti-vaxxers have been trumpeting for about 2 years.

@stewart1982: My statement on the relevative introductions between MMR and the single Measles vaccine is from a global perspective, not merely a U.S. perspective. Also, there was a period of overlap when MMR was provided as an option along with the single Measles vaccine. While you're correct that MMR was licensed and introduced in the U.S. 1971, it wasn't introduced operationally until 1988 in the UK, which was the country where Wakefield was practicing medicine at the time. Dates of operational introduction will vary depending on the country, but the important thing to be mindful of are the years of overlap as well as the year in which MMR totally replaced the single vaccine, all of which will vary according to country.

David,

So Japan pulls the MMR, and Autism rates go UP? and you are trying somehow to explain how it could STILL be MMRs fault? That is some serious motivated reasoning there (and by that I mean lack of reasoning).

and you say that autism rates are going up exponentially in the US. Proving it was the MMR because the use of MMR has been going up exponentially?

and regarding Wakefield " the only thing he advocated for were the following: a) conducting more research to conclusively determine a causal link between MMR and Autism and b) giving parents the option to immunize their children using single-dosage vaccines rather than poly or triplicate dosage vaccines"

As was pointed out above, why in the world would Wakefield be advocating for a Measles only vaccine with no evidence whatsoever that that would be safer. Why? a thinking man asks why he would say such a thing?

http://briandeer.com/wakefield/vaccine-patent.htm

Thank you Brian Deer. You are my hero.

Captain

..and do not forget that organic food sales have been going up "exponentially", almost exactly in parallel with the autism rates.

I can’t personally state equivocally whether or not MMR never historically contained thimerosal,

I will speak slowly. MMR is a live vaccine. Thimerosal is a <preservative, an antibiotic. That means it kills things. You add it to a live-virus vaccine, then the vaccine no longer contains live viri, and is no longer a vaccine.
You should be able to state, unequivocally, that MMR has never contained thimerosal. You can state it equivocally, too, if you want. If you can't, then I have to ask, do you speak to your mother with that much stupid? Aren't you ashamed to say something so gormless with your bare face hanging out?

@Orac, thank you for providing this additional information. Splicing together statements to provide a narrative is standard operating procedure when creating a 2 minute trailer. It's impossible to show a complete narrative of a 1 hour 30 minute documentary in it's full context in 2 minutes. Furthermore, I read the statements and I'm not seeing the problem with that. You can find this type of thing in nearly every documentary trailer that has been published.

I was not aware that Matt Carey has his own blog. I will take a closer look at that for future reference.

I'm aware of Wakefield's history, but it still surprises me that no one here seems to have the courage to directly confront Wakefield, interview him, ask him the tough "Why" questions, and get his side of the story. I've heard plenty of radio interviews where Wakefield goes into full detail on his side of the story and his perspective is uniquely different from what is being parroted by the establishment media outlets. Why do we have to continue devoting such tremendous effort at demonizing another human being, that while imperfect, is at least making an effort to avail himself in the public arena for criticism and debate? There are far worse people in the world to focus our hatred on in my view.

no one here seems to have the courage to directly confront Wakefield, interview him, ask him the tough “Why” questions, and get his side of the story.
if only you could spell Brian Deer's name correctly, you would be able to look up episodes like this:

After a year of rebuffs, Deer ran Dr Wakefield to ground at an Indianapolis conference on autism. The camera took a bit of a buffet and Dr Wakefield left with Deer following, shouting: "We have very important questions to ask you about your research and your commercial ambitions, sir! Will you stand your ground and answer?" If this was hounding, and it was, Dr Wakefield had only himself to blame for running away.'

@David, because generally Wakefield is very careful to go to interviews where he will be treated with kid gloves. The few times he has been in front of real interviewers who know their stuff, e.g. Anderson Cooper for one IIRC, he has been shown up for the crook and charlatan he is and so he tends to avoid such interviews like the plague.

David says "There are far worse people in the world to focus our hatred on in my view."

Because he is a liar, and a fraud, and his lies are leading parents to withhold vaccines from their children. Those children are now at risk to contract potentially life threatening diseases. Some of them will suffer severe consequences of those diseases, and some of them will likely die.

Let me say that again. Children will likely die because of Wakefields lies.

That is why this group is so agitated when someone comes in and promulgates those lies.

You will find that if you want an education on this subject, this board will happily be your teacher. Perhaps there is too much sarcasm and even some ridicule, but ..internet.

Captain

@Captian_A: Wow, have you no shame? You have totally mischaracterized and made claims about my previous statements that are completely not in line with my opinions as already stated. Do you really need me to hold your hand and walk you through this or is this just another half-witted attempt to defame my character and somehow discredit my opinions? I think I'm finally starting to see the true character behind this blog and the followers of this blog and it is very unsettling.

Nonetheless, I will entertain your false deconstruction of my opinions and correct you therein:
1) Japan pulled the MMR and Autism continued it's existing linear upward trajectory with no increase or decrease in it's rate of change of occurrence of ASD.
2) By comparison, the U.S. fully replaced the single Measles vaccine with MMR during this same time period while experiencing an increasing rate of change of the occurrence of ASD.
3) None of the above facts that I previously disclosed was meant to suggest that MMR is still to blame for the increased Autism in Japan.
4) I also mentioned that in addition to improved methods of detection and diagnosis, other factors should be considered as possible causes when the rate of increased cases of Autism is increasing non-linearly, which is what we have seen over the last 20-30 years in the U.S.
5) I never stated whether or not MMR vaccination rates have been changing in the U.S., so the conclusion of MMR vaccination rates being a causal factor cannot be drawn from my previous statements.
6) As to your question why Wakefield would recommend a single vaccine over MMR, look at my previous comments, which in summary are to suggest that there is a mountain of existing evidence that points to a single Measles vaccine being just as effective (if not more so) and perhaps even more safe (although more research is needed to assess this long-term for MMR) compared to MMR. Here you should realize that at the time of Wakefield's infamous 1998 publication, the MMR was only being used operationally in the UK for 10 years. During this same period, Wakefield's patients also had access to the single Measles vaccine. Wakefield did not find any associations with leaky gut syndrome, ASD, and the single Measles vaccine, thus why he held that recommendation with the further recommendation to carry out further research on the matter.

There are far worse people in the world to focus our hatred on in my view.

Outbreak of measles in Memphis, five children and one adult. All unvaccinated - two are too young.

See why we're upset?

@ Captian_A: Clearly you are out of touch and lack any personal interaction with people who have had children damaged by vaccines. Also, you don't seem to have any interaction with anyone who is the least bit skeptical toward the pharmaceutical industry and the revolving door of the FDA and CDC that rewards those who favor the pharmaceutical industry with cushy, high-paying jobs. The fact that you seem to pin all your hatred on just one man speaks volumes. Wakefield is not the source of these people's agitation and skepticism. It's the fact that Big Pharma and Big Government have a much longer, and much more nefarious track record when it comes to lies, fraud, and leading to the injury and deaths of millions upon millions as a result. That is the source of the distrust and discontentment. Wakefield is merely one man who has taken great risk as exposing a deeper fraud and corruption that's been going on far longer than any of us have been alive.

To anyone who has landed here being somewhat new to Wakefield and vax—>autism controversy: The defenders of VAXXED are all singing some version of "you can't criticize a film if you haven't seen it." This may seem a reasonable complaint on the surface, and a sound general principle, but in this case, it's a total red herring.

Matt Carey hasn't found 'a few audio clips' from VAXXED, he has an audio recording of the whole damn thing. So, unless there's 'information' not spoken — presented only in the form of intertitles or lower-thirds — he knows exactly how 'further' it goes, or doesn't. it doesn't 'go further'. Of course, several unbiased film reviewers who have seen VAXXED have reported on what they saw, and noted that it was surprisingly short of substantive content on the whole promised 'CDC Whisleblower revelations. There's also the trailer, promotional materials, Wakefield's YT videos — which collectively establish that VAXXED is fraudulent and mendacious on a number of point, so any 'new' claims it purported to offer would not qualify as 'information' without independent verification — say, peer review.

True, there are things the critics of VAXXED can't know about it until they've seen it. But far from constructing straw-man arguments based on assumptions, they're only commenting on things they do know about VAXXED, Wakefield, Hooker and Thompson. It may be the tip of the iceberg, but it's more than enough to that condemn the supposed 'science' in the film.

Once we actually get to see the thing, we'll have access to all the subtle insinuations it makes, and the way it presents folks with ASD as a "blight". Expect the critique to get stronger — a lot MORE damning — once all the sordid visual details become widely available for analysis.

@David. But the single vaccine is not as effective as the MMR for a number of reasons, e.g. fewer parents complete the full course of vaccines for their children when they are administered singly. There is actual research that backs this up but I don't have the links on this machine but perhaps one of the site's regulars can supply the appropriate links. If not I'll dig it out and post it later.

BTW, I suggest you go read Brian Deer's site on Wakefield so you'll understand just how crooked he was and what conflict of interests he had in all this from the get go, including when, and perhaps why, he advocated for a single vaccine.

@shay simmons: If you're so upset, vaccinate yourself and your children. End of story. The bottom line is that Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination. Statistically, you have a greater chance of dying on your drive to work than from an infectious disease. Your fear is driven by emotion, not rationality.

@ sadmar: I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that all of what you just said is true. If you really want to stand by these claims of fraud in the movie, then let's stand together and contact our Congressmen/women and urge them to subpoena William Thompson to testify before Congress and put this whole thing to rest. Further, let's lobby for an independent, non-biased (not funded by the FDA, CDC, or Big Pharma) group of scientists to "reanalyze" the complete CDC dataset. Furthermore, let's urge the film makers to engage in a town hall debate with leading, prominent scientists to hear all perspectives. Let's encourage discussion across all spectrums before we unilaterally determine that the blogosphere is our last hope at providing an authoritative verdict on a controversy.

@David, I actually have a daughter who was damaged during the UK's scare about the pertussis vaccine in the 70s. I was working away for long periods and while I was away my wife was persuaded by friends not to vaccinate her. A few years later my daughter was one of a number of young children who caught whooping cough and that is something I would not wish on the worst of people. It took her a year to almost make a full recovery, though she has ongoing health issues that the doctors say are related to her bout of whooping cough. But overall, she was one of the relatively lucky ones. For two died, a small number had immediate long term mild disabilities and a few had serious life long disabilities. All because a know nothing started a scare about the odds of possible damage caused by the vaccine when the odds of damage from the actual whooping cough was orders of magnitude greater. So go screw yourself.

As a follow-up to our last comment, the real "Red Herring" are those who are unwilling to have a fair debate with those they are accusing of committing fraud. If anyone is not willing to take such action to put this thing to rest outside of the blogosphere, they are cowards and hypocrites.

Captian_A: Clearly you are out of touch and lack any personal interaction with people who have had children damaged by vaccines

Captian_A also lacks any personal interaction with people whose children were abducted by leprechauns.

@David, I have no problem with a reanalysis of the data, though I personally think it a waste of resources. But if I thought it would shut up some of the anti-vaxxers, then I would approve. However, as to a town hall or any other kind of debate, what good would that do. For science isn't decided by debate but by the actual evidence. All a debate proves is that one side are better debaters than the other and says nothing at all about the truth of the matters being debated.

@John Phillips: I am sorry about your experience with your daughter and yours is actually the first I've been told about regarding a non-vaccinated person. I'm sure there are many others as you've indicated. There are definitely those who use scare tactics to get to the emotions of people. I see this on both sides of the debate. Personally, I'm more driven by statistics and a believe in living a clean, natural life as much as possible. I am also a Christian, and am driven by my faith in God and the Bible. I know there are others who do not believe in God and who rely on the wisdom of man and science to address all of there problems, and they are free to do so. However, I don't want to live a society that reduces man's free will to self-determine what to put in or what to not put in their own bodies or their children's bodies. For me, it's a matter of individual sovereignty that is the greatest gift that is not free and must be preserved. If men, women, and parents lose the right to make these types of decisions, we have then entered a point of no return into the greatest level of Tyranny this world has ever witnessed, where the power of the elite oligarchy trumps the free will of the individual person.

The bottom line is that Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination.

Yes, by getting the disease. Which could kill you, or leave you with horrible sequelae. Not always, but often enough.

Statistically, you have a greater chance of dying on your drive to work than from an infectious disease.

Even granting that's true, I wonder how it came to be?

David: "Wakefield is merely one man who has taken great risk as exposing a deeper fraud and corruption"

Why, yes - Wakefield's challenge to authority has resulted in his being exiled to an Austin mansion that sits on only five acres - and his swimming pool is less than Olympic-sized! Truly, his sacrifices have been monumental.

http://briandeer.com/solved/slapp-introduction.htm

David: "Your fear is driven by emotion, not rationality."

Irony meters explode into atom-sized particles.

@John Phillips: What good would debate do? Then please tell me why are you here? What is the nature of this discourse if it is not debate? I'm afraid you have a nihilistic world view in which you believe all problems can only be resolved by an elite oligarchy who claims to have all of the answers and solutions. Think where we would end up if we all practiced group-think and absolute, unquestioning loyalty to this oligarchy.

The bottom line is that Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination.

Tell that to my youngest brother. Make sure he's got his hearing aids in first.

@Dangerous Bacon: All that this proves is that Wakefield has lost faith in the UK government and justice system and he has successfully picked up the pieces and made a new life for himself in the U.S. Do you really believe that Wakefield intentionally planned to be a martyr with supposed grandiose, self-fulfilling delusions of deceiving millions into believing a fraudulent set of lies to gain even more fame as a fraudster and a charlatan? That is the most incredulous, unbelievable conspiracy one could conjure, let alone accept as viable.

how many of you here have attempted to directly confront Wakefield and have a conversation with him?

How many libel suits has Wakefield initiated against people who disagreed with him? Only to cancel the court action at the last minute, rather than face questioning? (it possibly helps that he always uses someone else's money).
I lost count after the third time.

While this has been an interesting and thought-provoking discussion, I'm afraid I must call it a day and bid everyone here farewell. It's interesting to note that when I first commented there were only 64 comments, now there are 150+ comments. If many of you feel it was pointless to have a debate, then it stands to question why anyone even bothered to respond and have a discourse over the past 3 hours that was far more dynamic than anything that was discussed here in the earlier part of the day. I would postulate that deep inside everyone's hearts and minds there is a burning desire to go deeper than the surface, to hear both sides of a debate, before a final verdict can be cast on any issue. That is how the court system works. The defendant always has an opportunity to speak and provide their testimony. I truly hope that all of you see the value in hearing the full testimony and inquiry on both sides of an issue before casting your final verdict. Love and Peace! - David

Orac,

“There is a disturbance in the antivaccine Force. I can sense it.”

How many deaths do you sense?
I mean, sense as caused by the antivaccine Force?

@David, mainly I'm just passing time with largely like minded people because I can't sleep while seeing what idiocy and infamy anti-vaxxers are getting up to lately. Actually, debate can be fun, interesting etc, but when it comes to scientific questions, it is largely useless as the evidence is what decides the validity of an argument, not debate or opinion. Debate is more about swaying opinion rather than deciding truth, hence my question as to what good would it do beyond proving one side is better at debating than the other.

Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination

Millennia?
Furuse Y, Suzuki A, & Oshitani H (2010). Origin of measles virus: divergence from rinderpest virus between the 11th and 12th centuries. Virology journal, 7 PMID: 20202190

@David, we also reply to those who, like yourself, are so obviously wrong with your facts so anybody else reading the blogs who might not have our background doesn't go away with the impression that a know nothing anti-vaxxer, or are you safe vaccine proponent snort, was right. I.E. a lot of what seems like debate is us, though myself only occasionally compared to the real stalwarts on here, correcting misinformation after misinformation promoted by people such as yourself. Think of it as a public service.

@Narad: So you want to have a meaning of words debate?

I'm not the one who tried to make a big hoo-ha over "linear" vs. "expontial," Peaches.

No thanks. Just take a look at the data yourself

Like this? (Note that this would be even flatter if I were to redo it now.)

I just presented it to you

No, you showed a picture...

and tell whether you think that chart mathematically represents an exponential rate of change.

... which you clearly didn't even understand, despite the boldface paragraph at top.

I don’t have the time or the energy to walk you through a mathematical regression

You don't understand what that word means, do you? Hint: It's generally preceded by another word, which begins with l.

but visually it should be obvious for anyone who has taken a basic statistics course.

Your comically inept posturing is duly noted.

@ Narad ( @ 89):

There's a more recent ( past 3 years?) paper that estimated about 50%. It was quoted by AoA and others.

Interestingly, I am unable to find the Canary Party's original manifesto which detailed the specific conditions - the "canary in the coal mine" . They included the illnesses/ conditions which I mention and some others.

The new website is nearly unreadable.

@Captian_A: Wow, have you no shame?

Did I miss the part where you copped to the following statement's being a crock of shіt?

"The interesting thing is that shortly after Wakefield went public with this recommendation (both in his paper as well as during an open press conference shortly after his paper was published), the vaccine industry shut down the single-dose vaccine option and forced the governments of the UK, US, and other countries to only accept the MMR vaccine."

This is probably unkind of me, but I do enjoy the regulars here dishing out a healthy dose of facts and evidence to a newbie anti-vaxxer who believes the nonsense. Thanks, guys, you're fantastic.

Popcorn, anyone?

“Very recently, Mr. Richard Morgan, Esq., Dr. Thompson’s whistle blower attorney

I don't know how class markers work among US lawyers, but in English circles the "Mr ... Esq" combination is a social solecism and dreadfully non-U.

the rates have increased, but the increase is linear, as opposed to the exponential increase we have seen in the U.S.
...
This is graphic is explained in further detail here: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7076-autism-rises-despite-mmr-ba…

The explanation states explicitly that the values plotted in the graph are not rates.

I can see why David was reluctant to enter into debate on the meanings of words.

David: "His opinion is based on decades of proven science that the single Measles vaccine, in isolation, as it’s been used for decades before the MMR vaccine came into existence, "

The first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963. The MMR vaccine was approved in the USA in 1971. How is that even one decade?

David: "While you’re correct that MMR was licensed and introduced in the U.S. 1971, it wasn’t introduced operationally until 1988 in the UK, which was the country where Wakefield was practicing medicine at the time."

Except that was just the UK, a version of the MMR was in use in other countries, like Canada. Now do the math: 1988 - 1971 = ?. How many decades is that?

By the way, the USA is a much bigger country than the UK (the only other countries with bigger populations are China and India). A version of the MMR vaccine has been used there since 1971, so if it caused autism it would have been noticed. So where it the documentation that autism increased in the USA in the 1970s and 1980s coinciding with the use of its MMR vaccine?

David: "1) Japan pulled the MMR and Autism continued it’s existing linear upward trajectory with no increase or decrease in it’s rate of change of occurrence of ASD."

Please tell us exactly why they pulled their MMR vaccine. Which component was the culprit, was it the measles, mumps or rubella bit? Hint: it is in the document I posted a link to and quoted from. You know, the one where 88 kids died from measles. Also, why are claiming no real increase when the graphs showed increases in autism in Japan? Have you bothered to find the papers I posted?

"2) By comparison, the U.S. fully replaced the single Measles vaccine with MMR during this same time period while experiencing an increasing rate of change of the occurrence of ASD."

Except the MMR vaccine was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program. Perhaps Merck stopped making the single measles vaccine because there was no market for it, since the American MMR vaccine was pretty much the only one used.

Do you know why I am specific about it being the "American MMR" vaccine? Was the MMR vaccine used in Japan and the ones introduced in the UK in 1988 all identical to the American MMR vaccine introduced in 1978?

David: "@shay simmons: If you’re so upset, vaccinate yourself and your children. End of story."

You seem to not care at all about the American who recently died from measles because of an immune disorder. By the way, those of us who frequent this website frown upon eugenics. Right now you are considered a monster.

"The bottom line is that Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination"

Except those like the young woman mentioned above and Roald Dahl's oldest child. Hey, a movie based the The BFG is coming out. When you read it, or more likely take them to the see the movie, tell them why the book was dedicated to Olivia Dahl.

David: "I am also a Christian, and am driven by my faith in God and the Bible."

There are about eighty souls resting peacefully in small child sized coffins in an Oregon City, OR cemetery that would disagree. Apparently the prayers of that church did not work better than real medical care.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/meningitis-trial-verdict-1.3552941

@John Phillips: What good would debate do? Then please tell me why are you here? What is the nature of this discourse if it is not debate? I’m afraid you have a nihilistic world view in which you believe all problems can only be resolved by an elite oligarchy who claims to have all of the answers and solutions. Think where we would end up if we all practiced group-think and absolute, unquestioning loyalty to this oligarchy.

That man to whom you are speaking wrote Twelve Thirty (Young Girls Are Coming To The Canyon) and around here, we treat him with respect.

@ Delphine, You're obviously joking, right? I mean that that John Phillips has been dead since just over 15 years and while I occasionally feel like death warmed up, I'm not quite there yet :). This John Phillips is from across the pond and quite a bit younger than that John Phillips, assuming he was still alive. Though I do remember the song quite well as I was only two years into my teens when it was released and they were one of my favourite bands. Though I don't think I would like that John Phillips much at all, at least not according to one of his daughters.

I wonder what David's real name is? He had a lot of crap info for a newbie.

David, do you eat fish, especially freshwater and salmon? If you eat very much your mercury levels are probably much higher from one years worth of fish eaten than if all the vaccines had mercury would contribute to you in your lifetime. Check your local health department to see what the recommended amount of fish is in your local area.

Do you really believe that Wakefield intentionally planned to be a martyr with supposed grandiose, self-fulfilling delusions of deceiving millions into believing a fraudulent set of lies to gain even more fame as a fraudster and a charlatan?

I think he did plan all of the above, with the possible exception of the martyrdom. That was an unforeseen bonus.

Rich Bly: "I wonder what David’s real name is? He had a lot of crap info for a newbie."

He is someone who does not care that over eighty children died from measles in Japan. Something I both referenced and quoted on this thread. This comment would be permanently moderated if I wrote what I really felt about his disregard of the victims of Japan's politically motivated health decisions.

David reminds me of a story. I have a few friends that are very good chess players, seriously, world-class good. One evening the chess board came out and another friend (played today by David) thought - I'm pretty clever, chess can't be that hard - and then had his arse handed to him.
He went away for a couple of weeks, offered a re-match, and was again whipped but at least it was apparent that he had gone and educated himself on the theory and strategies of chess.

Hopefully, David has gone away to educate himself. I don't mean that to sound patronising, and David, if you come back, this blog is actually full of fantastic information, and a lot of it. Search 'CDC whistleblower' and when you read a post, click the links within it and read those posts, click the links in those posts and read some more.

We have a system for working out what is and is not true - science. It's not up for debate.

Wow, I had seriously thought the ad hominems would be over once I gave this comment thread a rest since what I had stated were supposed factual mistruths according to the authoritative experts on this blog. Woah is me. All of these personal attacks on my character are an utter disgrace to the pro-vax movement and only serve to drive a deeper wedge between those who are skeptical and those who are dogmatically unflinching in their trust in the Big Pharma controlled medical science establishment. It's only caused me to realize that if this is the type of attitude and character that I am to expect for the wider pro-vax community then maybe Sir John Phillips is correct in saying that a debate between both sides is futile and will serve no purpose. I would have entertained the notion of continuing where things were left off in addressing some of these other comments left unaddressed, although a part of me just feels these were intentionally placed here as a smokescreen to not focus on the issues that the folks here want to conveniently ignore. If you look at what I posted above and see what was not addressed by everyone on here who was attacking me, then that will clue you in on what this community will not touch with a 10 foot pole. It's clear to me that all you want to do is play mind games, word games, discredit, and poke fun at anything I say that doesn't fit your self-proclaimed authoritative handle on what is factually correct. This is hubris beyond reasonable measure and will not promote an environment that is fertile for healthy discussion and exchange of ideas and diverse views. So John's self-fulfilling prophecy, should this attitude persist in the pro-vax community, will hold true indefinitely.

Wow, I had seriously thought the ad hominems would be over once I gave this comment thread a rest

Beg pardon?

All of these personal attacks on my character are an utter disgrace to the pro-vax movement and only serve to drive a deeper wedge between those who are skeptical and those who are dogmatically unflinching in their trust in the Big Pharma controlled medical science establishment

Don't make me laugh. There are no skeptics in the anti-vax movement. They're as Close-minded as you can get - they're psuedoskeptics

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism

Secondly, nobody is having blind faith or trust in "Big Pharma" but rather "Big Science" which has demonstrated over and over again that there is absolutely no link between autism and vaccines.

Also, nice tone trolling: stirr up sheeit and then go "Woe is me, u y being so mean?!" You're nothing but a run-of-the-mill anti-vax troll despite your claims to the contrary.

I am also a Christian, and am driven by my faith in God and the Bible... I don’t want to live a society that reduces man’s free will to self-determine what to put in or what to not put in their own bodies or their children’s bodies.

Matthew 15,10-11: 10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Jesus wants you to know that the virus or the vaccine that goes into your body does not make you dirty. However the vaccine preventable virus you spread to others will cause harm. Causing harm knowingly and willfully does indeed defile you spiritually.

In this parable Jesus reminds us that

David: "All of these personal attacks on my character are an utter disgrace to the pro-vax movement and only serve to drive a deeper wedge between those who are skeptical and those who are dogmatically unflinching in their trust in the Big Pharma controlled medical science establishment."

Is this because I pointed out that you said nothing about the fact 88 kids died of measles in Japan? Really? Where did you even acknowledge their existence and premature demise?

Oh, you poor child! Being given an "ad hominem" for not reading the relevant literature nor recognizing that political vaccine disease decisions are really quite deadly.

Here I am posting actual PubMed indexed studies versus your little graphics that can't be referenced. And I am the bad guy. Only on Htrae.

By the way the Yokohama graph was exponential. Sorry if you did not know what it meant, next time learn to use a dictionary and take some basic algebra.

Millennia?

So you want to have a meaning of words debate?

P.S. Furuse et al.'s clock has been challenged.

All of these personal attacks on my character are an utter disgrace...

When you say something ignorant, people will correct you. Then you are supposed to say, "oops my bad I guess I need to lurk more," or something like that.

If ignore the fact of your own ignorance and continue to pretend you know more than you do, people will laugh at you. Not just on this blog but on planet Earth. Because that is how human beings respond to derpy behavior. Well at least the kind hearted humans.

I am pro-evidence not pro-vax. It just seems like I am pro-vax because right now the evidence that the benefits of the vaccines we use far outweigh their risks.

But if evidence emerged that some vaccine caused more harm than good, then I would not want people to get that vaccine.

They’re as Close-minded as you can get – they’re psuedoskeptics

I, for one, prefer pleather to psuede.

David said:

More disturbingly, they examined cases of what is known as “isolated autism”, in other words, autism that is present in children who have no other debilitating health conditions or diagnosed disorders. What they found is an alarming risk factor that leads to a 700% increased risk for isolated autism; translation: children who are completely healthy without any previously compromised immune system or neurological disorders are most at risk for autism after taking MMR.

As Matt asked: Where is that 700% increase from?
It is not mentioned in the Desteffano study, It is not mentioned anywhere in dr. Thompson's statemet. And Hooker didn't mention it in his study although that study focused on african-american male children.

... there is a burning desire to go deeper than the surface, to hear both sides of a debate, before a final verdict can be cast on any issue. That is how the court system works. The defendant always has an opportunity to speak and provide their testimony.
Right. Wakefield faced his accusers during a hearing before the GMC years ago. People looked at his patient charts and saw that they did not match what he wrote in his study about them. That is scientific fraud which is not tolerated. For this and other reasons he lost his medical license.

Another part of the court system: once a case is concluded we don't try it again. Unless maybe someone presents important new evidence. But that will not happen for Wakefield. Cuz if the charts don't fit we cannot acquit.

Interesting. Where does the attorney state that?

Indeed (UTC).

As Matt asked: Where is that 700% increase from?

The usual.

#181, Narad

Aha, I see Age of Autism says that Autism have gone up 700% since the 70s.
A couple of days later "VaxTruth" reports that the CDC study showed an increase of 700% in "isolated autism". Sounds like someone is playing "Telephone"/"Chinese whispers".

He had a lot of crap info for a newbie.
I give him 8.5 out of 10 for the Gish-galloping.

a nihilistic world view in which you believe all problems can only be resolved by an elite oligarchy
Nihilists! Feck me!
(I was hoping to be at least a Kantian nihilist).

Another part of the court system: once a case is concluded we don’t try it again.
Remember that Wakefield did have several more bites of the cherry, several opportunities to re-litigate with his various appeals and defamation suits. All of which he either lost, or walked away from after pocketing whatever moneys his supporters were willing to donate.

Sounds like someone is playing “Telephone”/”Chinese whispers”.

You say "Chinese whispers", I say "Human centipede". Potay-to, potah-to.

@Narad

They aint got nothin' on the <u<velourskeptics.

David:

If you look at what I posted above and see what was not addressed by everyone on here who was attacking me, then that will clue you in on what this community will not touch with a 10 foot pole

1) You Gish Galloped. You threw out a huge number of false claims in the hopes that we wouldn't have the time to refute them.
2) You also accused the CDC and "Big Pharma" of having a revolving door policy but failed to provide any evidence to support your charge. On this site, a person who makes such claims is usually expected to support them with evidence.
3) You made a number of demonstrably false claims. Around here, we follow the "falsus in unum, falsus in omni" principle. If you write something that is easily refutable and don't support your other claims, the general view is that you're just throwing mud and hope that some sticks.
I'm going to repeat what Orac said, but paraphrased for my own experience. "No study or argument you've yet presented is anything I haven’t seen and seen dealt with dozens, if not hundreds, of times over the last 6+ years."

David@169:

All of these personal attacks on my character are an utter disgrace to the pro-vax movement and only serve to drive a deeper wedge between those who are skeptical and those who are dogmatically unflinching in their trust in the Big Pharma controlled medical science establishment.

LOL, say what you like about the rest of Brave Sir David's laughable performance, at least he stuck the flounce with gusto. Bravo, young man, you'll make someone a fine winged monkey yet!

Remember that Wakefield did have several more bites of the cherry, several opportunities to re-litigate with his various appeals and defamation suits. All of which he either lost, or walked away from after pocketing whatever moneys his supporters were willing to donate.

I see your point. But please do not confuse David regarding my main point: we do not try a case twice. It's important that David understand this lest he waste his life debating and re-debating stuff already sorted.

In a trial the defendant says, "The charges against me are false," while during an appeal the defendant says, "the judge/administrators didn't do their job." So not the same thing.

I thought that video was hilarious, with Sharon Attkinson reciting (accurately) how much published science is false, riddled with concealed conflicts of interest and fraudulent with Wakefield sitting there, looking gravely at his feet.

If it was a press conference, I'm not sure if I would have asked her views on some of the things he'd been proven to have done (from financial fraud to data fabrication), or whether I'd have asked how much epidemiology showed that cigarette smoking didn't cause lung cancer.

But it wasn't. Damn.

Anyone here who isn’t familiar with the NVIC should know that it was enacted in 1986 by Congress which provides total legal immunity to drug companies in the event of an injury or adverse reaction that would allegedly be related to a vaccine created by the drug company.

I am probably giving David's chocolate-fountain* more attention than it deserves, but this leaped out when I was scrolling up the screen. He seems to be talking about the NVICP (NVIC is B. Fisher's little hive of scum and villainy). By "1986" he means "1988". And by "total legal immunity" he means "not total legal immunity".

It is difficult that someone could be so wrong or mendacious about so many points just by accident or ignorance.

* Not really chocolate.

@ hdb

He seems to be talking about the NVICP (NVIC is B. Fisher’s little hive of scum and villainy). By “1986” he means “1988”. And by “total legal immunity” he means “not total legal immunity”.

But apart from these inconsequential factual errors, David was totally right, isn't it?
I mean, the commas were placed correctly in his sentence.

----------------------------------------------
With this whole controversy about vaccines, a student in sociology would have material a-plenty to write a thesis or ten on how information is spread, distorted and rewritten by the rumor mill.
Not long ago, another visitor was telling us about a former Merck employee and whistleblower, a Dr Thompson...

@141

Under other recent, related blog posts here I have posted a link to the W*k*p*d** page on Mr Lying Trousers Fraudy Pants (that'll be Saint Andy to you by the look of things), which makes it abundantly clear, for those who haven't followed his antics for many years, exactly what sort of person he is.

Oh, and I should point out, yet again, that Wakefield had minimal training in anything to do with autism - he was a sodding gastro-enterologist!

I know a couple of professors of child and adolescent psychiatry and paediatrics who would have loved to debate anything to do with MMR, autism, measles and the like with Wakefield, but he ran away and hid in Texas.

Hi, David. I just wanted to go back to your original post and your complaint against 5 claims that were made and are, in your opinion, merely speculation by anyone who has not seen the film.

Please bear in mind that when commenting on Hooker's reanalysis, the best place to look is Hooker's (retracted) paper, not a film produced by people hoping to spin the narrative to agree with their preconceived notions.

1) He analyzed a dataset designed for a case control study as a cohort study,

As others already pointed out, Hooker did, indeed, use data gathered as a case control study to conduct his own cohort study. So that claim is actually true.

2) Hooker tortured the data until it confessed what he wanted it to, but even then it didn’t confess all that he wanted,

Ideally, Hooker wanted to show that MMR causes autism. However, his reanalysis didn't show that. And, as he wrote in his (retracted) paper, he had to change sample sizes in order to get the one spurious result he did obtain (using the wrong statistical methods).

3) the only “result” he could produce was an association between MMR and autism in African-American males,

This is also true. The only association he showed was between AA males and late vaccination with MMR. On-time vaccination (at 12-15 months) was not associated with autism. And MMR was not associated with autism for any other population. He did not show causation, since this type of study cannot show causation to begin with. Furthermore, even if it could show causation, the dataset would not have allowed such an analysis, since there was not information on when the children were diagnosed with autism. Was it before getting the MMR? After getting it? We don't know.

4) he basically proved Wakefield wrong, because there wasn’t a hint of a whiff of a whisper of a positive correlation in any other group,

This, too is a true statement. Hooker's (retracted) paper showed no association between MMR and autism for any of the other groups, yet Wakefield has been claiming that MMR causes autism. If Wakefield were correct, then Hooker's (retracted) paper should have shown a correlation between MMR and autism for all, or at least a majority of, groups.

5) he had to do the wrong analysis to “show” a correlation in African-American boys.

This, like the four previous statements, is also true. The only way that Hooker could obtain results showing an association between MMR and late-vaccination in AA males was to use the wrong statistical methods and to ignore confounding variables.

These are all immediately evident if one reads the actual papers, rather than taking a propaganda film as true and accurate at face value.

And, if I were you, I'd give Matt Carey's comments quite a bit of weight. He has a full audio recording of the film (not just clips or snippets), he has read the original DeStefano paper, Hooker's (retracted) paper, and all of the documents that Thompson provided to Rep. Posey. You could actually read all of those things, too, since they have all been made available. Granted, that would take work, and you'd have to set aside your biases as you read them so that you do not ignore the bits that disagree with the narrative you've swallowed, nor overemphasize the bits the agree with your opinions. Self-criticism is very difficult, but it's essential if you want to arrive at anything near the truth of the matter.

David -- what you're describing as coming from authoritative experts simply isn't something clinically relevant.

But, is it possible that.....No.

@David
I'll had this summary if you want to see if some of the movie's arguments weren't adressed before : http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/mmr-cdc-and-brian-hooker-media…
As far as we know, the movie didn't bring up any new argument.

#104

I don’t doubt most of the folks here are familiar with Wakefield, but the bigger question is how many of you here have attempted to directly confront Wakefield and have a conversation with him? There are two sides to every story.

Wakefield has been interviewed recently here ; he had his chance to answer to pro-vaccination criticisms of the Hooker study : https://violentmetaphors.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-andrew-wakefi…

Sharyl Attkisson is well-known at RI.

A while ago, Dan ( AoA) absolutely raved about her book and attended her book party at a posh place in Washington.

In brief, wikip--- has an entry about her storied career. Most recently, she is employed by Sinclair which also has an interesting history ( see wikip-- / political programming section). I imagine that she has managed to finally escape 'liberal bias' at a major network.

I think she does an awful lot of posing which I suppose is alright if you're a model.

Vaccines are full of spam. And they probably mess with the gut microbiome wherein doing so makes people suffer metabolic dysbiosis making them fat.

There are far worse people in the world to focus our hatred on in my view.”

There are right now three "continents" of garbage floating around on our oceans.
I guess that gives me a good reason to not pick-up the garbage on my front lawn.

"The bottom line is that Measles is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millenia that immunity can be developed naturally without vaccination."

The bottom line is that rabies is a natural disease, and the human body has been proven over the millennia that immunity can be , um, crap. What was I saying?

SM - I think you were trying to say that the rabies vaccine is the most effective way to combat that infectious disease, but only if given in a timely manner.

"I think she does an awful lot of posing which I suppose is alright if you’re a model".

You may be confusing Sharyl with Polly Tommey. :)

@ Murmur:

I've been following the antics of various alties for years and have come to the conclusion that Texas probably provides an excellent environment for woo and its perpetrators.

Supposedly the name itself is derived from an ancient Native American word ( 'Tejas' ) which loosely translates as " a good place to play around in".

So Andy escaped his past and settled there. Krigsman works there part time. Mike Adams left Ecuador, then Arizona, to build his empire nearby. Jake Crosby has connected relatives there and studies at the University. Alex Jones broadcasts his swill as well from Austin. They say " Keep Austin weird". Right.

Famously, Dr Burzynski resides in Houston.. Recently, SBM's persona non grata, Gary Null, began moving his operations to a former oil baron's estate in Mineola where he is trying to establish a spa, retreat, treatment centre and divers other projects that provide the true essence of distilled woo and energy healing.

Why Tejas? The hoary old woo-meister explains that they don't have as many of those pesky regulations that restrict what spiritual, humanitarian healers like himself can do and taxes are LOW.

One of the Thinking Moms is working on getting marihuana accepted as a treatment for autistic children there too.

I've only visited the place once in transit which was the Dallas-Fort Worth airport so I haven't observed directly.

@ Dangerous Bacon:

No, both of them pose. They're hard to tell apart - that's why one was relegated into wearing a non-black dress.

One of the Thinking Moms is working on getting marihuana accepted as a treatment for autistic children there too.

I suppose you'd rather keep pumping them full of Risperdal, hu? Little Timmy needs his prolactin raised to the point of sprouting a proud set of knockers.

SN:For example, do you ever write about the suicide rate in the U.S. being at its highest in decades?

I understand that
– The suicide rate increased for white middle-aged women by 80 percent from 1999–2014,
– The overall suicide rate for white, middle-age Americans spiked 40% in the last 10 years,
– Drug overdoses (i.e. *possible* suicides) among young whites quintupled from 1999 to 2014.

And, what exactly is your point? You've been pretty clear that you don't think women are human, so what do you care if they off themselves?
Besides, the whataboutery about suicide is off putting when it's you and all your pals who cause some of it. It ain't just a medical problem buck-o, it's a religious and community problem.
Here's the thing, I bet you know people- or are that person- who's responsible for a few suicides, and you actively endorsed their behavior. The dad who raped his daughter and told her it was her fault for being immodest, and she later killed herself? I bet you lined up squarely behind the dad. The priest who raped dozens of kids and wonders why there's suddenly a bunch of suicides but has no remorse? You support him. The parents who kicked their gay sons or lesbian daughters out of the house and only get told about the funeral when it's over? You support them. The rich Catholic slumlord or mortgage broker who drives families to bankruptcy and shows no remorse? You're also on their side. The families who exorcise their kids rather than getting them actual help? You're ringing the bell.
Don't fucking concern troll about suicide when you're just using it as a flag and don't care about the actual people. Just like God, you're squarely on the side of the rich, the intolerant, and the smug. Go be a smug snake somewhere else, and quit stinking up the the joint.

PGP, you forgot to castigate him for cheering on his buddy for impregnating his wife over and over again, despite the fact that they couldn't handle or afford so many children.

If you're going for negative Catholic stereotypes, you need to be more inclusive. And why stop there? I'm sure there are some cheap shots you can take at other religions. Oh wait, you already do...

Wow, PgP; Did you take a speech class or something? Such a powerful soliloquy-- Those are right laudable social ills your railing on there. Though one might say *perform exorcism* instead of *exorcise* because the latter implies success.

But you have overreached as all See Noevo's suicide stats are trivially attributed to Justin Bieber and cringing Justin Bieber retrocausal teen and twenty-something angst.

https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/justin-bieber-interview-the-teen-ido…

*boing*

I wonder if David was spouting the talking points from Tom Leonard's execrable, offensive, and highly inaccurate piece published at the Daily Fail April 22.

http://www.dailymail.co DOT uk/news/article-3554747/Why-Niro-backing-MMR-doctor-hounded-Britain-Actor-believes-triple-jab-risks-covered-pharmaceutical-giants-son-developed-autism-overnight-vaccination.html

Tom Leonard is The Daily Fail's New York bureau chief. He has a little problem with factual reporting, at least related to Wakefield, vaccines, and autism.

The movie contains a bombshell revelation: the existence of a 1994 study (pre-dating Wakefield's findings in The Lancet) by the U.S. government's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) that buried the suggestion the MMR jab was associated with a 340 per cent increased risk of autism in African-American boys

Uh no, just no. The film Vaxxed is all about DeStefano 2004. I have no idea what Leonard is on about with the "1994".

With the commercial value of holding the licence to make a government-prescribed single vaccine worth as much as $30 billion a year in the U.S., Vaxxed suggests that rich pharmaceutical companies could hardly have had a stronger vested interest in promoting their vaccines.

Leonard is making stuff up, or Wakefield is. In 2014 the entire world market for all vaccines, including animal vaccines was $30 billion.

As for Wakefield, he tells me he hasn't 'earned a cent for three and a half years' as he and his wife, Carmel, a classical music radio DJ, survive off the proceeds of selling their home in Kew, South-West London. He now calls himself a professional filmmaker.

Oh sure. I wonder how much Wakefield is being subsidized by say Barry Segal. Vaxxed was funded to the tune of $400K, or about $440/minute. Considering how much of the film was recycled material, I wonder what Wakefield's cut was.

Not surprisingly, many parents of autistic children believe Wakefield, although discredited by his peers, raised worrying issues.

It would be more accurate to say that <0.01% of autistics and maybe 10% of the parents of autistic children buy into the "vaccines cause autism" myth.

Either way, both sides in this vicious battle hopefully realise the most important thing is never to lose sight of the main goal — finding a cure for this soul-destroying condition.

Soul-destroying? My contempt for Leonard knows no depths.

As an antidote to Tom Leonard's spew, Sarah Gill at Australia's The Age declares: Anti-immunisation movie Vaxxed is a platform for its maker, not its message. Amid World Immunisation Week, a film by a frontman for the anti-vaccination movement is being rolled out in US cinemas

What more, one wonders, could Wakefield possibly have to offer on this topic, given his deplorable conduct in the late 1990s when he essentially fabricated a link between autism and the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and caused a worldwide vaccine scare? What followed over the next decade – including mind-blowing revelations of dishonesty, fraud, avarice and chicanery – culminated in Wakefield's medical deregistration in 2010.

Apparently undeterred by this litany of prior misdemeanours, Wakefield's film – Vaxxed: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe – simply sidesteps his past and reprises the causal link between the MMR vaccine and autism, this time accusing the US Centre for Disease Control of scientific fraud by manipulating data to conceal the correlation between the triple shot and autism. Pot, kettle, black?

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/antiimmunisation-movie-vaxxed-is-a-pla…

@Liz Ditz: She really doesn't pull her punches: What followed over the next decade – including mind-blowing revelations of dishonesty, fraud, avarice and chicanery – culminated in Wakefield’s medical deregistration in 2010. Love it.

Delphine: you forgot to castigate him for cheering on his buddy for impregnating his wife over and over again, despite the fact that they couldn’t handle or afford so many children.

SN's single, which is the only good thing about him.

As for the cheap shots, I'm sorry, but people pretending to care about medical issues just so they can wave their jerk flags really, really pisses me off.
I've seen a "good Catholic couple' deny their daughter urgently needed medical care, to the point where she had to check into a psychiatric unit to get any medical attention at all. And then when she had to move back home, her parents stole her anti-depressants. And no one in her community bothered to care.
Another example of people I hate are anti-vaxxers who pretend to mourn when autistic children die. If it was their kid, they'd be dancing on the grave.
I really hate hypocrisy, and religion's an easy target because of the many hypocrites, abusers and generally shitty people that make up both the rank and file and the clergy. And when abusive behavior comes to light, who gets support? Not the victims, not ever.
If you're a Christian or a Muslim you don't get to enjoy life. You don't read books, as God doesn't like education, science, or literacy. You don't get art or music-well, maybe some art or music if you're a Christian, but of the sugary insipid variety. And then if you're a good Christian, you get an eternity of suburban sanctimony.
I suppose I'd like religious people better if they didn't want to run everyone's lives for them and didn't keep running for office and making a big deal about their faith. I'd also like it if I didn't have to keep punching myself in the uterus or worrying that this'll be the last election I'll be able to vote in.

@ Liz Ditz:

I know that Carmel Wakefield is presently a dj but wasn't she a physician?
I wonder why she didn't try to get certified in the US-
being struck off isn't contagious.

If you’re a Christian or a Muslim you don’t get to enjoy life. You don’t read books, as God doesn’t like education, science, or literacy. You don’t get art or music-well

Just when I think you can't get any more stupid, PGP....

Sheesh, completely ignoring S.N. was going so well up until this.

I had forgotten that Carmel was a physician, Denice. I don't know if she actually had a practice or did something else.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carmel-wakefield-59085913

Medico Legal Consultant and Risk Management Advisor
Carmel O'Donovan Associates
1994 – 2004 (10 years)London, United Kingdom

St Mary's Hospital Medical School London
Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery and Member of the Royal College of Physicians UK

herr doktor bimler@191

It is difficult that someone could be so wrong or mendacious about so many points just by accident or ignorance.

I think this is what they call fractally

Todd W.@194

The only association he showed was between AA males and late vaccination with MMR. On-time vaccination (at 12-15 months) was not associated with autism.

But not too late. IIRC it was only something like 15-18 months.

PGP, I try so hard to understand your position. I really do.

Here's my problem:
I so WANT to believe that you're just being careless with language, exaggerating your point or that you don't mean what you say.
Hyperbole can be a useful literary device if designated.

I agree that CERTAIN Christians, Catholics, suburbanites and anti-vaxxers CAN be awful and obnoxious and perhaps even hateful. I can give you examples of them.
Perhaps even all of them are.

BUT here's the big problem- we can't know that! We haven't surveyed or met them all.
It's possible that being religious perverts people's better instincts and makes them unbearable.
BUT we don't know that. We haven't observed ALL religious people ALL of their lives in perpetuity to see how they are.

Even if one is not despicable it ruins your argument if you speak as you do.

If you said something like-
" It's been my experience that many ( whomevers) are quite terrible because ( whatever)" .
That's another thing. It might be true. It isn't automatically suspect.

I understand some of what you say and I suspect that you DO use hyperbolic speech often because you are so emotionally involved with subjects which make you angry about certain types of people, how they behave and their political positions which you think are unfair.

BUT you have to be more clear about it and specify that.
Err in the direction of explaining TOO MUCH rather than specifying too little and having us speculate.

People may agree with you if you say SOME not all.

Coming soon to a theater near you:

https://www.thewrap.com/pirates-of-the-caribbean-writer-to-pen-movie-ab…

@ 212: Denice

Carmel Wakefield has done about two days worth of doctoring in her life. She went from being a junior to work for the Medical Defence Society - protecting doctors against their patients - and then set up her own business doing likewise.

Basically, the Wakefields couldn't get away from patients quick enough. The stench of hypocrisy that eminates from that pair (and Ms Tommey, who seems to come between them) is unbelievable.

They do all this "listening to the parents" number, but I think the ones they mostly pay attention to are the rich ones.

Sorry: Medical Defence Union!

@capnkrunch

But not too late. IIRC it was only something like 15-18 months.

Nope, the association that Hooker found and gets touted all around by AVers (the alleged 340% increase) was in the 24-36 month group (but he shifted the upper age limit so he wouldn't include cells with less than 5 individuals). There was a lesser association in the 18-24 month group, and no association in the on-time group.

@ Brian Deer:

Really. My goodness.

And the anti-vaxxers are the ones who always say-
'Follow the money'.
Perhaps we should steal that line.

DW: I do tend to use hyperbole, and I do know that is a bit of a problem. I have met a number of fairly nice religious people, but the problem is that they tend to be really, really quiet, whereas the terrible people tend to float to the top. You see the same thing in parenting circles and most autism organizations.And that kinda makes you wonder about the rank and file.

Shay: Should have put devout in there, sorry for the error. Though I stand by what I said about Christian 'art' 'music' and 'movies.' If you can find non-Catholic,non-Orthodox and non-Anglican examples that don't induce diabetes or retching from three states away, I might be interested. (Excluding those three because Orthodox Christians and Catholics actually have a tradition of iconography and Anglicans because Tolkien.)

Gosh, at first when I read comments here, I thought, "Oh! I have to go and throw away all my books, art, and music! I didn't know. No one had told me!" Fortunately, I read further, and found that I Have Been Saved! By Tolkien. Whew!

I think this is what they call fractally wrongness.

@Todd W.
Thanks for the correction.

@PGP #23:

Tolkien was a devout Catholic. His brother John was a priest.

Yes he was, though he could never get Lewis to join him on The Dark Side. Although Lewis was as High Anglican as they come.

This bunch can't be very devout Christians. They seem like they're enjoying themselves too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YXtf7vtz3c#t=13

(wait till the 2 minute mark when they really get sugary and insipid).

One wonders what PGP would do with Blake.

Or even the Song of Solomon.

BOOM

Or the B Minor Mass, or the St Matthew Passion, or any of the cantatas, or Messiah, or Ein Deutsches Requium, or ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F7TVM8m95Y

chillschillschillschillschills

@ PGP:

I thought so! I can read people. You do see the complexity.
At least a little - it's a start. I can deal with it.

On the net, you sometimes can be easily mis-read so you have to be careful. Specify more. Be clear. Don't take short cuts - say what you REALLY mean,

"Terrible people do tend to float to the top" - you said it!

Par example, you read about different characters and even interact with them @ RI:

-Orac is brilliant and presents thoughtful meaningful material- then there's Mikey. WHO is more well-known on the net?
If you were ill, whose advice would you take?

- Brian Deer and his work are exceptional but ANDY is a rock star With groupies.. And films! Who is louder and more strident? Who makes more money?
Whom would you trust with your car?

Then there's me contra the various Momster writers investigating the Truth and Fighting da Power for the CHILDREN!!! Would you rather have a drink with me or Kim Stagliano?

I hereby rest my case

( I won't get into Catholics and Protestants as I am neither.

Art is another province and belongs to no one group because talent and insight don't belong to any sect- .but are INDIVIDUAL although certain cultures may foster particular talents and encourage some artists, discouraging others)

-btw- is it possible that Tolkien's family's religion this, their culture might have influenced him in his choice of iconography, language and celestial hierarchies? Just a thought.

I've never been a spiritual man, but I'll admit that (some) music is the best thing to come out of church.

http://youtu.be/dWJt3ZUKAWk

It's really strange PGP has such hatred for religious people, when she risk being murdered (or worse) every day riding the bus. I guess its a case of being more comfortable with threats that you face regularly than threats you face less often, even if the regular threat is more dangerous.

Or maybe she just hates everybody.

Denise - never trust a journalist with your car. It's one of the cardinal rules if zombieland, or at least it should be.

@ MarkN:

Ha ha.
Don't laugh but in the good old days of café society c. 1980s I knew a photographer who worked for a tabloid. Hilarious.

I don't know about journalists, but I'd worry about letting an Englishman drive my car...unless he'd been here a while.

The first thing I did behind the wheel of an American car* after three years in Japan was back it into the side of the carport.

*His. The week before the wedding. He married me anyway.

Shay: Song of Solomon was written by a Jewish person. Blake was one of those spiritualists, wasn't he? Like Emerson? The point is, anyway, that modern day Christianity doesn't really have room for good art.

Come on, PGP, can't people transcend their environment?
Especially artists? ( guess who studied art)

Seriously, some art historians even believe that the social environment- for good or ill- determines art . Wasn't Renaissance art primarily funded by the Church and the wealthy? Some of it was revolutionary- not directly supportive of its donors- it looked towards the pagan ideals of beauty and perfection as implied in Greek and Roman sculpture- not the Church. Artists exemplified individuality in a system of rigid religious order and value. They changed their social environment.

Did Blake really fit in? Did you ever read some of his works?
( -btw- I got to see some Blakes close- up last year- woo hoo)

@ shay simmons:

I once was without a car for about 2 weeks- when I got it back from the shop I felt like I didn't know how to drive it. I was scared for a few days.

Blake was one of those spiritualists, wasn’t he? Like Emerson?

No, but could you not even be arsed to look it up?

PGP: a devoutly religious Jew, no less. And you have no point except for the one on top of your bigoted little head.

On the topic of Christian music, allow me to quote Hank Hill from King of The Hill on the topic of Christian "Rock":

"You're not making christianity better you're making rock and roll worse!"

Kidding aside, I am pretty much an anti-theist at this point but even so I can't deny the facts of history. Early Islamic and Christian scholars and monks contributed greatly to early science. Medival European monasteries were the closest thing you'd get to universites at the time. It was all about exploring God's creation and all it's wonders and trying to figure out how "He did it" so to speak. It was only when science got to the point where the evidence started contradicting established "religious facts" that problems arose.

This early groundwork is often forgotten/ignored over the heavy-handed anti-science attitude, persecution and censorship that followed it.

Or the B Minor Mass, or the St Matthew Passion, or any of the cantatas, or Messiah, or Ein Deutsches Requium, or ….

... a steady diet of Carmina Burana and torrented Jodorowski? Beats me.

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/callous-disregard-movie-vaxxed-120176…

‘Vaxxed’ Director’s Book ‘Callous Disregard’ in Development as Movie

Dave McNary, Film Reporter @Variety_DMcNary

APRIL 27, 2016 | 12:04PM PT

Screenwriter Terry Rossio, best known for “Shrek” and the “Pirates of the Caribbean” franchise, has teamed with Dr. Jocelyn Stamat to acquire the film rights to a book by “Vaxxed” director Andrew Wakefield.

Rossio and Stamat will adapt Wakefield’s 2010 book “Callous Disregard: Autism and Vaccines — The Truth Behind a Tragedy” and produce the project through their Chamaeleon Productions banner. As part of the deal, Chamaeleon also secured Wakefield’s life rights.

The book details the key events surrounding the 1998 paper in the British medical journal the Lancet, co-authored by Wakefield, that asserted that the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine was linked to autism. Wakefield was accused of professional misconduct and falsifying information in that study, and the Lancet retracted the piece in 2010 and the United Kingdom’s General Medical Council revoked Wakefield’s medical license.

“Dr. Wakefield is clearly a polarizing figure, reviled by the general public yet also revered by many,” Rossio said. “The details and drama surrounding his life are even more remarkable than generally known.”

Wakefield’s “Vaxxed: From Cover-Up to Catastrophe” was accepted and then rejected by the Tribeca Film Festival. The film is currently playing in New York and Los Angeles through Cinema Libre Studio.

“Vaxxed” was pulled from the Tribeca lineup on March 26 after festival co-founder Robert De Niro explained that it did not contribute to or further the discussion he had hoped for about issues surrounding autism. Cinema Libre came on board to distribute three days later.

“Vaxxed” purports to investigate the claims of a senior scientist at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who revealed that the CDC had allegedly manipulated and destroyed data on an important study about autism and the MMR vaccine.

According to the Centers for Disease Control, there is no link between vaccination and autism. The anti-vaccination movement has lowered vaccination rates, which in turn has been linked to a recurrence of vaccine-preventable diseases such as measles and mumps.

This is rather disgusting news, as options usually have $$$ attached.

I await some learnèd member of the RI commentariat to let me know the percentage of optioned books that actually make it to the Silver Screen, which might assuage my disgust at St. Andy again raking in unearned $hilblenas..

Thankfully there is evidently a biographical documentary about Maurice Hilleman in the works.

Just wanted to follow up on the claim by David regarding the alleged "total legal immunity" to the drug companies via the NVICP. It seems the U.S. Supreme Court has already made a ruling on this, 6-2, as mentioned here for example:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-vaccine-ruling-parents-cant-s…

As you'll read in the above news article from CBS, the American Academy of Pediatrics is on record as endorsing the decision by the SCOTUS. The dissenters of the SCOTUS decision were Sotomayor and Ginsburg.

The official SCOTUS ruling is provided here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

Here is the overall summary opinion of the ruling as delivered by Justice Antonin Scalia: "We consider whether a preemption provision enacted in the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (NCVIA) bars state-law design-defect claims against vaccine manufacturers."

Now I'm not an attorney, but based upon my understanding of past SCOTUS rulings, one would have fair reason to conclude that this ruling would make it quite difficult for an individual to sue a drug company on an alleged vaccine-related injury.

Is anyone here aware of a successful lawsuit that made it all the way to a jury trial resulting in a loss to a drug company since NVICP was enacted?

I have 2 comments in moderation about Wakefield's book being optioned for film, and the who and what. It's all very Hollywood, as seems to suit Wakefield's current career direction.

So what is the connection between Terry Rossio and Jocelyn Stamat, MD?

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/features/?id=2319

May 25, 2007: Those acting more like Disneyland Cast Members included Pirates of the Caribbean writers Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio—escorting his lovely pirate girlfriend, Jocelyn Stamat, MD

It turns out that Jocelyn Stamat MD, like Andrew Wakefield and Carmen Wakefield, is a physician who no longer seems to practice medicine, although her license is current. According to her LinkedIN profile Stamat in 2005 was Chief Resident at Northwestern University Hospital's Otolaryngology, then was the medical director at an LA medical spa for 3 years, until 2009. Since then, she has been a writer and director. According to IMDB, her most recent credit was for Night of the Living Deb as an associate producer.

Seems my previous comment was removed in moderation. Can the admin resurrect this? I will attempt to re-post if need be.

@JC, if the post you refer isn't yours a few above this one, then the main reason for posts to go into moderation is multiple links which I assume is a an antiSPAM precaution. When Orac has the time he will free them as it is extremely rare for him to totally block or delete a post.

JC, as I have previously stated I am a scientist not a lawyer, but my understanding of the situation is that for alleged vaccine-related illnesses, plaintiffs have to go through the vaccine court.

That doesn't stop state-level actions being made on the basis of manufacturing faults.

No doubt someone with more knowledge will set me right.

As a principle, it is important to realise that vaccines are essentially a public good, so providing the provider with some protection from frivolous lawsuits is important. This is much less of an issue outside the US I might add where the legal system operates differently. This is counterbalanced by the requirements of the manufacturers to provide data about safety and for vaccines not being listed on the schedule without a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis being conducted.

So one way to think about this is that the Government by making vaccines compulsory accepts some of the risk for known adverse effects.

@JC

NVICP preempts state actions only for design-defect claims (i.e., the vaccine was manufactured properly and had all of the proper warnings listed in its documentation still caused some injury as a consequence of its design). If someone claims that the vaccine was not properly manufactured and thus led to injury, or that the labeling left out important information, then they could still sue in state court.

If you want a more detailed discussion of it, I wrote a post discussing the topic. One other important note is that it is only for childhood vaccines that are on the recommended schedule. If it is an adult vaccine, the patient can sue the company directly. If it is a childhood vaccine that is not yet on the recommended schedule, the parents can sue the company. At least, that's my understanding of it. I'm sure Narad will correct me if I'm wrong.

Todd,

That's great info - what are the implications for the HPV vaccine & teens?

Does that still count towards the NVICP?

Where's the lawsuit here?

In a post the other day on some kind of flu vaccine mishap in Austria we called it a colossal screw-up. It turns out we may have understated the case. Maybe. Because while more details are leaking out, the company responsible for it, Baxter International, isn’t saying exactly what happened on the grounds that it is confidential business information. You almost have to admire that kind of arrogance...

...Baxter is calling the mixture an “experimental virus material,” whatever that is. All we know is that a nasty live virus cocktail of human and bird influenza virus was made (Baxter says accidentally). Exactly to whom it was given, if anyone, is not being publicly divulged.

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/02/28/baxter-bird-flu-botch/

Vaccines can be made to be full of nasty spam.

Liz:

Variety says the rights have been "acquired', not "optioned". Buying an option isn't buying the rights, like buying a stock option isn't buying stock. It's buying an exclusive right to buy the rights to the work within a fixed window of time. Options for a possible Hollywood movie are real money to normal people, but chump change in terms of movie biz finances. Most properties that get optioned don't get produced. I'm not well-versed enough in Variety-speak to know if they use "acquired" for stuff that's only been optioned.

Now, if Rossio and Stamat actually bought the rights, not just an option, they could be paying a lot more. But it's still market demand driven. Unless there was competition for AJW's rights, he might have had to sell them outright for less than a mere option would fetch for a 'hotter' property.

The question is how much they paid. If they could get full rights as cheap as an option, they might have bought them as long-shot spec. But, in general, you wouldn't acquire actual rights unless you were confident the film was going to get made, which is to say, financed.

I don't know anything about Rossio's intent, but in general I have to note that films made from biographic material don't always depict the central character as a 'hero'. The protagonist may be an anti-hero, as in Shattered Glass or problematic and contradictory. For such films, buying the rights keeps lawsuits away.

@Gilbert: AAAACCCCKKKK! I didn't know vaccines had SPAM (tm) in them!!! I HATE Spam! I had to eat it WAY too much as a child since it was cheap and easy to carry on camping trips. I'm never going to get vaccinated again! /sarcasm

@ sadmar:

So what do you think are the odds that this paean to St Andy will actually be made as a film?

I don’t know anything about Rossio’s intent, but in general I have to note that films made from biographic material don’t always depict the central character as a ‘hero’. The protagonist may be an anti-hero, as in Shattered Glass or problematic and contradictory. For such films, buying the rights keeps lawsuits away.

Rossio and Stamet have their lips firmly attached to Wakefield's rectum. It's safe to say their going for "brave, maverick, hero doctor who lost his country for the little childrenz".

Narad @245 -- Ya got me. I don't get the Jodorowski/Carmina Burana reference at all ...

@ Science Mom:

Wasn't there already a movie like that made prior to Andy's dismissal from medicine/ strike off?

AND who will play Andy? Any guesses, minions?

@Lawrence

The HPV vaccine is on the recommended schedule, so it is covered under VICP, as well. HHS has a handy list of which vaccines are covered.

@Denice Walter

I imagine a Scientologist would probably be cast to play Andy, if Andy doesn't play the role himself.

"AND who will play Andy? Any guesses, minions?"

Jim Parsons.

There's even some physical resemblance.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/560c8370d7ea6ce90d30121623dbc2c67dbcd1a…

The boy wonder has published a screed.

Demand Withdrawal of William Thompson’s Bogus Autism-Caused-Vaccination “Reanalysis”!

APRIL 28, 2016 11:00 AM \ 2 COMMENTS \ J@KE CR0SBY
6 redacted

The effect has to occur after the cause (and if there is an expected delay between the cause and expected effect, then the effect must occur after that delay). – Sir Austin Bradford Hill, Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, 1965

It might be the most bizarre twist ever to have happened in this weird saga where the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has already told some of the most brazen lies in trying to dupe people into believing vaccines don’t cause autism. It was weird enough for them to claim there was no evidence mercury in vaccines causes harm when they had proof. And now to refute the fact that children have developed autism after vaccination, the CDC is now claiming that it is the autism that is causing the vaccination. Yes, you read that right. And that person apparently pushing that view for CDC will be none other than the federal agency’s so-called vaccine whistleblower: Dr. William Thompson, who has now been “handled.” Needless to say, calling for the withdrawal of such an execrable, egg-laid-the-chicken report is in order. Relevant contact information concerning Thompson, the journal likely to publish his paper and the Committee on Publication Ethics are all provided at the bottom of this post.

While the CDC has not yet made any formal announcements, their excuse has already been scooped by one prominent former CDC adviser. In an article published by Hollywood Reporter, millionaire vaccine industrialist Paul Offit made the below attempt at criticizing “Vaxxed” – the documentary film about Thompson’s 2004 CDC study where the authors buried evidence of measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccination causing autism in African-American boys:

The real explanation for Vaxxed’s “revelation” isn’t conspiracy or hidden data; it’s something else. When compared with their Caucasian counterparts, African-American boys in Atlanta in 1994 were under-vaccinated. In order to qualify for autism-support programs, this subset of under-vaccinated children with autism had to get vaccinated. In other words, it wasn’t that MMR had caused autism; it was that the diagnosis of autism had caused them to get MMR. Not surprisingly, this is never explained in the film.

Never mind that African-American children are diagnosed much later and that the diagnoses would have likely been given after age three anyway. Never mind that the significant risks found were in children who received the vaccine in the 12-18 month age group, when no one would have had an autism diagnosis. For the phenomenon that Offit described to occur, one would expect to see a diminished odds of vaccination for those ages among black autistic children compared to vaccination after age three, not an increased risk. In fact, that was probably why the race effect was yanked from the paper and thrown in the garbage in the first place. A comment under Offit’s article seeking to point that out was removed from the thread, even though it was part of an ongoing conversation with a CDC-tied attorney.

But worst of all, this claim will not be confined to Offit’s review. It will also be made in a published “reanalysis” of the CDC’s study due to be published next month, authored by none other than the very coauthor of the original study who raised the alarm in the first place: “whistleblower” William Thompson. According to his initial contact Dr. Brian Hooker, Thompson has been “handled.” He is expected to publish his “reanalysis” with a researcher named Michael Blank – who had advised the MMR vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline. Among the promises Thompson has been allegedly bribed with are a huge bonus and his own autism research foundation. Not surprisingly, having a scientist claim that vaccination was caused by autism diagnoses likely made after vaccination instead of admitting that vaccines cause autism comes with a steep price. It’s just too bad that that price will also be the unnecessary harm to countless more children. To add insult to injury, Offit will apparently write a commentary accompanying this awful work.

Please write and call Dr. Thompson at the following numbers and email address and tell him to withdraw his “reanalysis” and that he will face ethical complaints against him due to the ridiculous nature of his claims.

redacted@cdc DOT gov

(404) xxx-xxxx (office) Liz writes: the number published is incorrect

(404) xxx-xxxx (cell) Liz writes: the number published is incorrect

Also contact the journal publishing his paper as well and tell them withdraw his paper and that they too will face ethics complaints for publishing it. Here is the email for the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, where the “reanalysis” will likely be published. You should let the journal know that it too will face an ethical complaint for publishing Thompson’s analysis and should withdraw it from press: <em<redacted@nas dot edu, Phone: xxx-xxx-xxxx redacted for charity

Also make a complaint to the Committee on Publication Ethics. Let them know you complained to both the author of the piece and to PNAS: http://publicationethics.org/contact-us

lovely.

#264

Never mind that the significant risks found were in children who received the vaccine in the 12-18 month age group, when no one would have had an autism diagnosis.

What results is he talking about? As far as I recall the significant results were with a 24-months threshold and 36. Not 18 months. And I misremembering?

Troels, it's so badly written (Hooker's analysis) that it's hard to suss out. But the results are for >18-24 months and a higher RR for >24-36 months

I'm betting a fiver on Jim Carrey to play St Andy of Texas.

@ Kate:

Hah! Carey is a fellow traveller and is loaded down with money so he could finance.

I had formerly guessed Brad Pitt because I think he could be made to look like AJW easily but he has a life and has already made a film playing an aggressive, self centred hallucination ( iin Fight Club) and a threat to children ( in The Tree of Life).

Also contact the journal publishing his paper as well and tell them withdraw his paper and that they too will face ethics complaints for publishing it. Here is the email for the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, where the “reanalysis” will likely be published. You should let the journal know that it too will face an ethical complaint for publishing Thompson’s analysis and should withdraw it from press: <em<redacted@nas dot edu, Phone: xxx-xxx-xxxx redacted for charity

Calling for the retraction of a paper that hasn't even been been written yet, let alone submitted for publication, and only exists in Hooker's fertile and mendacious imagination? Because JC is certain that it would disagree with his beliefs? That seems a little, umm totalitarian, and ironic, coming so soon after the complaints about people criticising 'Vaxxed' without buying tickets.

But the calls for the readership to stalk Thompson and denounce a potential target journal, that's the work of a truly contemptible low-life sh1tweasel.

I'll let RetractionWatch know about Jake's petulant demands. They might be amused by this concept of pre-emptive retraction.

The PNAS bit is particularly cute. Apparently, Jake hasn't asked himself why Thompson's attorney would be talking to Hooker (or anybody who would be talking to Hooker) in the first place.

Not long ago, another visitor was telling us about a former Merck employee and whistleblower,

There was some suspicion, though, that Marsha was trolling.

Denice:

If "Rossio and Stamet have their lips firmly attached to Wakefield’s rectum" and are going for "brave, maverick, hero doctor who lost his country for the little childrenz”, I'd put the odds that a Hollywood film will go into into production at zero, the odds of a micro-budget direct-to-video thing emerging at maybe 10%, with zero % chance of theatrical distribution.

On the other hand, if Rossio takes a more 'objective' movie-of-the-week type approach, covering 'both sides" of AJW as "a polarizing figure, reviled by the general public yet also revered by many," a low-budget film could get made and distributed. A more indie-art-film approach with a lot of ambiguity and/or contradictions in the voice of the film regarding the central character and events, it could even be good. I didn't care for The Master but it was well received by critics. Just staying with PSH, Capote was hardly hagiography, either. For an example of ambiguous protagonists in recent low-budget indie fiction films w/o A-list stars or directors, Kumiko, The Treasure Hunter comes to mind. I doubt the Pirates of the Caribbean guy could pull off that sort of script.

What any fiction film turns out to be depends a lot on who's cast and, more so, who directs. The cliche, of course, is that everyone wants to direct, and if Rossio wants to helm this himself, I'd predict disaster, assuming he can get any financing, which is hardly guaranteed since AJW isn't a character in long-running comic-book series.

Given that Rossio and Starnet have exactly one dramatic credit between them — Rossio worked on the script for the Tony Scott action/thriller Deja Vu starring Denzel — they might be developing a comedy version imagining Johnny Depp in the lead. Seriously. It's unlikely, but not impossible.

Of course, the whole thing could be a ruse to funnel money and publicity to AJW, and they don't really intend to make a film, just talk about it for the next ten years.

It's extraordinarily difficult to get a serious dramatic film into production, and then into general distribution, w/o a bankable star or 'name-above-the-title' director.

Orac! I know I said 'until 2017', but couldn't resist offering you a suggestion in the context of things.

YOU should do a movie! Call it 'BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR'.

And, so as to follow your own example, I'll give you the review:

'Wish granted!'

Or Box of Blinky Lights.

Frankly, if that consortium of antivaxers just want to keep rolling, I say we go ahead and throw down, prosecute them for creating a public health scare for their own personal gain.

He is expected to publish his “reanalysis” with a researcher named Michael Blank – who had advised the MMR vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline.

Um, the only Michael Blank who's published with Thompson is this fellow. Something tells me that Jake has more than one of his wires crossed.

@Todd and others curious about the 2011 SCOTUS ruling on NVCIP, here are some interesting quotes I gathered after reading the 57 page ruling summary:

From the majority opinion led by Justice Scalia:
- "[n]o vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death associated with the administration of a vaccine after October 1, 1988, if the injury or death resulted from side-effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings."

- "Design defects ... do not merit a single mention in the NCVIA or the FDA’s regulations. Indeed, the FDA has never even spelled out in regulations the criteria it uses to decide whether a vaccine is safe and effective for its intended use."

- "Drug manufacturers often could trade a little less efficacy for a little more safety, but the safest design is not always the best one. Striking the right balance between safety and efficacy is especially difficult with respect to vaccines, which affect public as well as individual health."

- "[T]he Act, which in every other respect micromanages manufacturers, is silent on how to evaluate competing designs...Neither the Act nor the FDA regulations provide an answer, leaving the universe of alternative designs to be limited only by an expert’s imagination."

- "[T]he lack of guidance for design defects combined with the exten- sive guidance for the two grounds of liability specifically mentioned in the Act strongly suggests that design defects were not mentioned because they are not a basis for liability."

- "Design-defect torts, broadly speaking, have two beneficial effects: (1) prompting the development of improved designs, and (2) providing compensation for inflicted injuries. The NCVIA provides other means for achieving both effects."

- "[The NVICP Act's] silence regarding design-defect liability was not inadvertent. It instead reflects a sensible choice to leave complex epidemiological judgments about vaccine design to the FDA and the National Vaccine Program rather than juries."

- "Taxing vaccine manufacturers’ product to fund the compensation program, while leaving their liability for design defect virtually unaltered, would hardly coax manufacturers back into the market."

Concurrence statements from Justice Breyer:

- "Congress found that a sharp increase in tort suits brought against whooping cough and other vaccine manufacturers between 1980 and 1985 had “prompted manufacturers to question their continued participation in the vaccine market.”"

- "two whooping cough vaccine manufacturers withdrew from the market, and other vaccine manufacturers, “fac[ing] great difficulty in obtaining [product liability] insurance,” told Congress that they were considering “a similar course of action.”"

- "The American Academy of Pediatrics has also supported the retention of vaccine manufacturer tort liability (provided that federal law structured state-law liability conditions in ways that would take proper account of federal agency views about safety)."

From the dissenting opinion led by Justice Sotomayor:

-"Vaccine manufacturers have long been subject to a legal duty, rooted in basic principles of products liability law, to improve the designs of their vaccines in light of advances in science and technology. Until today, that duty was enforceable through a traditional state-law tort action for defective design."

-"Its decision leaves a regulatory vacuum in which no one ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements when designing or distributing their products."

-"“unavoidably unsafe” products—i.e., those that “in the present state of human knowledge, are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use”—are not defective."

- "the vaccine for the Pasteur treatment of rabies, which not uncommonly leads to very serious and damaging consequences when it is injected; [s]ince the disease itself invariably leads to a dreadful death, both the marketing and the use of the vaccine are fully justified, notwithstanding the unavoidable high degree of risk which they involve."

-"seller[s]” of “[u]navoidably unsafe” products are “not to be held to strict liability” provided that such products “are properly prepared and marketed, and proper warning is given."

-"1987 had a number of options before it, including adopting an entirely different compensation scheme, as the Reagan administration was proposing; establishing different limitations on tort liability, including eliminating design defect liability, as pharmaceutical industry leaders were advocating."

-"The major- ity’s premise that a vaccine’s side effects can always be “avoid[ed] by use of a differently designed vaccine not containing the harmful element,” ante, at 7, entirely ignores the fact that removing the “harmful element” will often result in a less effective (or entirely ineffective) vaccine. A vaccine, by its nature, ordinarily employs a killed or weakened form of a bacteria or virus to stimulate antibody production; removing that bacteria or virus might remove the “harmful element,” but it would also necessarily render the vaccine inert."

-"nothing in the Vaccine Act or the FDA’s regulations governing vaccines expressly mentions design defects"

- "FDA has never even spelled out in regulations the criteria it uses to decide whether a vaccine is safe and effective for its intended use."

-"Indeed, the FDA does not condition approval of a vaccine on it being the most optimally designed among reasonably available alternatives, nor does it (or any other federal entity) ensure that licensed vaccines keep pace with technological and scientific advances."

-"[T]he specter of damage actions may provide manufacturers with added dynamic incentives to continue to keep abreast of all possible injuries stemming from use of their product[s] so as to forestall such actions through product improvement."

-"Congress relieved vaccine manufacturers of the burden of compensating victims of vaccine-related injuries in the vast majority of cases...an extremely significant economic benefit that “functionally creat[es] a valuable insurance policy for vaccine-related injuries."

-"Manufacturers, given the lack of robust competition in the vaccine market, will often have little or no incentive to improve the designs of vaccines that are already generating significant profit margins."

@JC: I don't intend to dismiss you or try to run you off with the terseness of this comment, but I just can't do anything more lengthy at the moment.

@Todd and others curious about the 2011 SCOTUS ruling on NVCIP

If you think that you're addressing an audience who is unfamiliar with Bruesewitz, you're sorely mistaken.

here are some interesting quotes I gathered after reading the 57 page ruling summary [sic]

Why are they interesting? (For that matter, you're not even differentiating between quotations from the opinion and quotations within the opinion.) There's no shortage of salient analysis of the case on the Intertubes.

For that matter, your cherry-picking of a couple of quotes that mention comment k* (i.e., the phrase "unavoidably unsafe") indicates that you didn't even grasp the actual summary, which explicitly rejects its application – which was requested by the Bruesewitzes, because it provided a state-court theory that would allow them to argue for a case-by-case consideration.

Are you asking something or driving at something? No, one cannot sue in state court for product liability based on vaccine design defects.** (There was an attempt to sue Thimerosal manufacturers directly at one point, but I'm not going to look it up right now.) Moreover, labeling defect is a highly unlikely approach, given that the FDA reviews it in advance. The final product-liability theory is manufacturing defect. It's wide open.

Federal preemption is not unique to vaccines. If you think the NCVIP and Office of Special Masters should be done away with, you are arguing for neither more nor less than a straight lottery system in which plaintiffs (1) are subject to a frankly adversary system with much more stringent evidentiary and procedural rules, (2) overwhelmingly lose, and (3) then are on the hook for their attorney fees.

* Which is going the way of the Dodo in any event.
** I strongly suggest that you look into what this may imply for plaintiffs and juries, including the question of proving a superior, alternative design.

@Todd and others curious about the 2011 SCOTUS ruling on NVCIP, here are some interesting quotes I gathered after reading the 57 page ruling summary:

JC, why are these quotes interesting? Why not a whole host of other quotes?

The ones you have chosen are mostly quotes that indicate vaccines can occasionally cause damage. Everyone knows this and the current US vaccine court system is designed to provide relief to people who can demonstrate they have suffered harm from certain vaccines at the least effort and cost to the plaintiffs. After all, they have their attorney fees paid win or lose regardless.

What is of major importance in the court judgement is the summary and the impact that has, not cherry-picked quotes. Narad above has provided a succinct summary.

I should also point out that this is a feature specific to the US Court system. In other places, other systems are in use.

Um, the only Michael Blank who’s published with Thompson is this fellow. Something tells me that Jake has more than one of his wires crossed.

Jake has this from Hooker, so it is anyone's guess. Blank is a fellow psycologist, which may mean something and does seem to have some sensitivity to the anti-vaccine position.

Blank is a fellow psycologist, which may mean something and does seem to have some sensitivity to the anti-vaccine position.

This does not, however, mean that Jake's "advised the MMR vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline" routine is on the money.

@Narad, Thank you for chiming in. These quotes as you put it are cherry picked indeed, as many quotes commonly are when ideas are being exchanged. Personally I found these quotes quite interesting as I am not trained in legal matters, but yet I found it quite fascinating how definitive and deconstructive the justices were in looking at the totality of the issues surrounding the balance of vaccine safety vs. efficacy, which in my view after reading the 57 page opinion summary transcends the NVCIP Act and even "comment k" for that matter.

These quotes stand out in a sense because it provides a deeper understanding as to the comprehensive nature of facts that were brought to bear as evidence before the SCOTUS came to its final ruling. For instance, while it may be well known among many who follow this blog, it's not well advertised in mainstream press that there are no explicit provisions or regulatory directives for either the Vaccine Act or the FDA to address design defects. This is particularly interesting as this fact stands in conflict with the majority of the SCOTUS' opinion that the NVICP "eflects a sensible choice to leave complex epidemiological judgments about vaccine design to the FDA and the National Vaccine Program rather than juries." Being that this represents the SCOTUS majority interpretation of one of the primary effective bi-products of the NVICP, then it's curious unsolved mystery as to why since 1988, neither the FDA nor the National Vaccine Program has explicitly addressed regulations toward design defects. Are they waiting for Congress to pass another law? The SCOTUS apparently doesn't think so, as this ruling acknowledges inherent authority in the FDA via the National Vaccine Program to enact such regulatory measures, Has the FDA taken any action on this as a result?

There are many more things I could point out for the sake of thought-provoking discussion, but this perhaps is a good starter to get some juices flowing (no pun intended).

Personally I found these quotes quite interesting as I am not trained in legal matters, but yet I found it quite fascinating how definitive and deconstructive [beg pardon?] the justices were in looking at the totality of the issues surrounding the balance of vaccine safety vs. efficacy [um, no, it was a textual analysis by Scalia], which in my view after reading the 57 page opinion summary [sic] transcends the NVCIP Act [sic] and even “comment k” for that matter.

The preface to my foregoing reply was based on a recent reminder that occasional commenter Antaeus Feldspar hasn't been seen in a while – in particular, regarding application of the principle of charity.

The incoherence of your response suggests to me that this may have been unwarranted.

These quotes stand out in a sense because it provides a deeper understanding as to the comprehensive nature of facts that were brought to bear as evidence before the SCOTUS came to its final ruling.

The United States Supreme Court considers law, not evidence.

For instance, while it may be well known among many who follow this blog, it’s not well advertised in mainstream press that there are no explicit provisions or regulatory directives [] for either the Vaccine Act or the FDA to address design defects.

This is prima facie gibberish. If you intend to actually reply to my comment, I suggest that you make some sign of actually understanding it.

Are they [sic] waiting for Congress to pass another law? The SCOTUS apparently doesn’t think so

You really don't understand how this works. Yes, Congress would have to amend the NCVIA. Instead of directly addressing the question whether this might be a Really Bad Idea, you've instead resorted to randomly spunking up the walls.*

as this ruling acknowledges inherent authority in the FDA via the National Vaccine Program to enact such regulatory measures, Has the FDA taken any action on this as a result?

See my remark immediately above.

* I think I've explained this reference to why my (former) dentist stopped renting out the second floor of the building before.

^ That should have been "former, dearly missed." He's not dead or anything; if anyone knows what the "Belmont El stop" means, I can hook you up.

I miss Antaeus Feldspar.

Krebiozen has also been MIA. Does anyone know if they're fine?

To add to what Narad said, the FDA already addresses design defects, in a way. They have this power called "recall", as well as the ability to revoke licensing for a product. However, when evidence arises that a vaccine's risks outweigh its benefits (e.g., with RotaShield), the manufacturer themselves voluntarily recall the product before FDA has to actually use those powers.

On a completely different off-topic direction, antivax loon and baby-killer apologist Chris Savage* has not featured in RI for a while
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/04/here-we-go-again-the-vile-…

but he is currently featuring in headlines in New Zealand:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/79413689/dhbs-warning-about-anti…

* Evidently removed from the Queensland Police Service for thuggery and incompetence beyond the call of duty, which takes a lot of doing.
ht_tps://reasonablehank.com/2015/07/11/sergeant-damage/

He’s not dead or anything; if anyone knows what the “Belmont El stop” means, I can hook you up.

Red Line or Blue Line?

Australian media reported last month that Savage, a former Queensland police officer, had returned to Australia from Bali after local authorities there began investigating him over allegations that he was offering medical treatments for autism and other conditions.

When you can't even peddle your snake oil in traditional, woo-prone regions such as Bali you know you're in trouble. Good on the Bali (Balian?) authorities for chasing him off their Island.

Hello Team,

How about we make our own movie? Yes, I'm serious and I know there is a lot of diversity here. The counterpoint for that could be the treat we could have directed to us but what do you all think about the idea?

Alain,

How about: Ten Steps to properly Cure (no nitrates needed) an Anti-Vaxxer ?

Rich@293,

Good title but I'll leave it at that. As you know, it's fine to bring a horse to the water but if she / he ain't drinking it, she / he ain't drinking it, period.

I was thinking about the fence sitters.

Alain

I was just reading about the Dengue Fever vaccinations in the Philippines. It seem that out of 204,000 vaccinations given they've had 364 adverse reactions and 1 death. This works out to a adverse reaction rate of .17% and a death rate of .00048%. The death occurred in a 11 year old boy with unrevealed health issues. The death rate for Dengue Fever was .3 of cases. In this rough comparison you are 625 time more likely to die from Dengue than the vaccine. More than likely the odds of dying from dengue is far higher than 625 times that of the vaccine.

The anti-Vaxxers now will have another vaccine to go after.

The Dengue Fever vaccine is relatively new. There are four serotypes of the virus. If you get one, if you get another serotype your chances for hemorrhagic fever are worse. One reason why it was a very difficult disease to design a vaccine for.

So it is not a surprise that there are issues with the vaccine.

By the way, I caught Dengue Fever as a child living in South America. There is a reason it is called Bone Break Fever.

Chris, I was just reading at CIDRAP that there seems to be a link between dengue anti-bodies and the severity of Zika symptoms.

The language used in this article invokes the image of a fanatic as biased, or worse, than those it seeks to brutally eviscerate. "Brian Hooker, a biochemical engineer turned incompetent antivaccine 'epidemiologist'," "conspira-woo," putting quotes around "journalist" when discussing Sheryl Attkisson...

I am not anti vaccine, but I am open to hearing arguments for them being linked to harm in certain cases if such exist, as any thinking person should be if he or she wants to get things right in the long run. Articles like this claim to promote science over ignorance, but with such clear, aggressive bias, and the fact they are written for and consumed by a closed circle of what seem like extreme cynics, they are hard to take seriously. I came here to read an argument and what I got is a haughty bunch of BS. You want to convince people who are not already converted? Make good, solid, concise points and don't be insulting.

I am not anti vaccine, but I am open to hearing arguments for them being linked to harm in certain cases if such exist, as any thinking person should be if he or she wants to get things right in the long run

I don't believe you when you say you are not anti-vaccine. In my experience, if a person needs to deny that they are antivaccine before saying something about vaccine, it's a pretty darned reliable sign the that person is, in fact, antivaccine.

As for the rest of your comment, look up the term "concern trolling" or "tone trolling," because that's all that you're doing. If anything, I was going easy on Brian Hooker when I described him as a biochemical engineer turned incompetent antivaccine epidemiologist. He's actually much worse than that.

Here's a letter to the editor from a concerned citizen who seems open to some rather dubious arguments:

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/opinion/letters/84507-gene-danforth-2-16…

I guess there's another Gene Danforth who really _is_ antivaccine. :)

I came here to read an argument and what I got is a haughty bunch of BS.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMRgmmnIrDU

putting quotes around “journalist” when discussing Sheryl Attkisson…

What kind of journalist thinks she's being "hacked" by secret government agents when she has a stuck delete key on her computer?
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/31/7140247/the-right-is-convinced-obama-hack…

Make good, solid, concise points

Does "so, where's the f*cking paper" count?

Year end award lists you do and don't want to be on

oracknows — Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:45:18 +0000

Year end award lists you do and don't want to be on

Christmas and New Years are almost here. As a result, as is always the case this time of year, we're being flooded with "year end" lists. These lists are a fun distraction that I actually rather look forward to as an amusing (and sometimes annoying) year end tradition. In particular, I'm a sucker for "best of the year" and "worst of the year" lists, particularly the latter. Unfortunately, I've usually been too lazy to construct such lists of my own, but maybe this year will be different and next week I'll do so. Or not.

Be that as it may, it gave me a bit of a chuckle to see that Mike Adams over at that wretched hive of scum and quackery, NaturalNews.com, set his minions Ethan Huff and J.D. Heyes to the task of coming up with a couple of year end lists in articles entitled, Natural News announces recipients of the 2015 Journalist Courage Awards and Natural News announces recipients of 2015 Celebrity Hall of Shame Awards (if the link doesn't work and redirects you to a page extolling the "scientific achievements" of Mike Adams, try this link). (No doubt there'll be more before the end of the year.) I couldn't help but think as I perused these articles that, were I a journalist, there's no way in hell I'd want to be in the first list, but if I were a celebrity I'd love to be in the second list. Before I read each article, I tried to guess who was in each list. The journalist awards were easy to predict. The usual suspects were all there and then some. In contrast, the celebrity awards were not as obvious. You'll see what I mean in a minute.

So who was the first journalist to be praised by Adams' minions? Personally, I thought it would be Sharyl Attkisson, but in 2015, they appear to want to recognize fresh crank blood:

Ben Swann: Without a doubt Mr. Swann is one of the best and brightest young investigative journalists we have today, and he's not too afraid or intimidated to take on any subject that the national-level corporate-owned and politically compromised media would find objectionable.
For instance, Mr. Swann is one of the few journalists willing to tell the truth about the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's cover-up of research showing links between vaccines and brain injuries which manifest as tics and autism symptoms, as revealed by CDC whistleblower Dr. William Thompson.

Thanks for being a beacon of truth, Ben!

You know, if I were a journalist, this award isn't the sort of thing I'd put on my resume, if you know what I mean. Swann, if you remember, is the Alex Jones wannabe anchor of the early evening newscast for the Atlanta CBS affiliate, WGCL CBS46. Hired in June after having done stints in Cincinnati and El Paso, as well as having built his own little YouTube channel chock full of stories where Swann emulated his apparent hero, Alex Jones, in mining the conspiracy circuit. He went full antivaccine back in October when he did a sympathetic (and inaccurate)
"Reality Check" on the antivaccine protest at the CDC over the so-called #CDCWhistleblower manufactroversy. Then, a mere three weeks ago, Swann followed up his piece de resistance of antivaccine reporting by revealing to the world that he had obtained from Rep. Bill Posey (R-FL) the documents provided him by the "CDC Whistleblower" himself, CDC scientist William Thompson, whose conversations with biochemical engineer turned antivaccine activist Brian Hooker (which Hooker recorded without Thompson's knowledge) birthed the whole "CDC whistleblower" manufactroversy in the first place in the summer of 2014.

Yes, Swann truly deserves this award. All I can say is: Sharyl Attkisson, watch your back. There's a new antivaccine propagandist and all-purpose conspiracy monger in town and his star is rising.

Speaking of Attkisson:

She digs deeper and takes stories where they lead, which is how she was able to reveal that the "latest study debunking the link was actually funded by a group with major financial ties to Big Pharma vaccine makers. Didn't hear that on TV, did you?

Keep dropping those truth bombs, Sharyl!

I checked out the article that Heyes referenced in his praise of Attkisson, What the News Isn’t Saying About Vaccine-Autism Studies. In it, she harps on the fact that the Lewin Group funded this major study that, consistent with all the other well-designed studies looking at the question, found no link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Amusingly, this is what she says:

What you didn’t learn on the news was that the study was from a consulting firm that lists major vaccine makers among its clients: The Lewin Group.

That potential conflict of interest was not disclosed in the paper published in The New England Journal of Medicine; the study authors simply declare “The Lewin Group operates with editorial independence.”

Sharyl, Sharyl, Sharyl. How am I supposed to take you seriously when you cite this paper as having been published in the NEJM when in fact it was published in JAMA. I mean, seriously. If you can't be bothered to identify the journal correctly, I have to wonder what else you got wrong. Be that as it may, the Lewin Group is a consulting firm. Its clients include the the federal government, state and local governments, hospitals, foundations, associations, and insurers. So, yes, it's not surprising that its clients include pharmaceutical companies as well. Take that for what you will, but it's hardly incredibly damning, nor is it evidence that the study was hopelessly flawed. It wasn't; it was a pretty decent study, as I pointed out at the time when I blogged about it.

None of this stops Sharyl from writing one of my favorite paragraphs she's ever penned:

Their work is, at best, ignored by the media; at worst, viciously attacked by the predictable flock of self-appointed expert “science” bloggers who often title their blogs with the word “science” or “skeptics” to confer an air of legitimacy.

This astroturf movement, in my opinion, includes but is not limited to: LeftBrainRightBrain, ScienceBlogs, NeuroSkeptic, ScienceBasedMedicine, LizDitz, ScienceBasedMedicine, CrooksandLiars, RespectfulInsolence, HealthNewsReview, SkepticalRaptor, Skepticblog, Skeptics.com, Wired, BrianDeer, SethMnookin, Orac, Every Child by Two, the vaccine industry supported American Academy of Pediatrics, and the government/corporate funded American Council on Science and Health (once called “Voodoo Science, Twisted Consumerism” by the watchdog Center for Science in the Public Interest).

Sharyl likes me. She really, really likes me. She really, really likes a lot of friends and bloggers I admire, too! In any case, she's going to have to up her game in 2016 to fend off Ben Swann's challenge.

Then, of course, the list includes Eric Lipton, whose deceptive hit piece on Kevin Folta, a prominent horticultural scientist and outspoken defender of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) as safe, was part of what drove Folta from public advocacy, along with threats against his family. Never mind that Lipton's piece was an obvious hatchet job designed to discredit Folta, the result of a concerted campaign to harass scientists who defend GMOs with frivolous Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests.

I must admit that I haven't heard of many of the other "journalists" given this "honor," with the exception of Glenn Greenwald and Jeffry John Aufderheide, the latter of whom came to my attention because he runs a crank antivaccine website (but I repeat myself) known as VacTruth.com. Let's just say that he's deluded enough to think that pesticides, specifically DDT, caused polio outbreaks before the vaccines and that it was really the cessation of DDT use, not the vaccine, that caused polio incidence to plummet. He also demonizes polysorbate 80 in vaccines as the cause of all (OK, much) evil.

What about celebrities? Well, Adams hates Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia, because Weiss actually stood up for science in response to a petition requesting "fairer" (translation: more credulous) treatment of alt-med on Wikipedia, dropping the mic with one of the most quotable characterizations of alt-med nonsense:

No, you have to be kidding me. Every single person who signed this petition needs to go back to check their premises and think harder about what it means to be honest, factual, truthful.

Wikipedia's policies around this kind of thing are exactly spot-on and correct. If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals - that is to say, if you can produce evidence through replicable scientific experiments, then Wikipedia will cover it appropriately.

What we won't do is pretend that the work of lunatic charlatans is the equivalent of 'true scientific discourse'. It isn't.

No wonder Adams doesn't like him. In fact, he detests Wales so much that his minion Ethan Huff is awarding Wales for something he said nearly two years ago!

Others on the list include Jon Stewart for his final monologue, during which he attacked anthropogenic global climate change denialists (a most excellent takedown), because Adams is a climate science denialist himself; Deborah Nucatola because she's Senior Director of Medical Research at Planned Parenthood; Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar, because they pointed out that, while terrorism by Muslims is a problem now, Christians are by no means innocent of terrorism; and Geraldo Rivera, because he Tweeted that the "second amendment is stupid." Particularly noxious to Adams' crew was Kristen Bell, who said:

"You have to get a whooping cough vaccination if you are going to hold our baby," Bell stated while promoting a tote concept called "This Bag Saves Lives." "It's very simple logic: I believe in trusting doctors, not know-it-alls."

Seems reasonable to me. No wonder Adams' crew doesn't like it.

Oh, and Huff and Adams really, really detest Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson, too.

Knowing that many blogs and websites will slow way down (or even stop posting new material altogether) for the next four days because, due to Christmas Eve and Christmas, a lot of people won't be paying attention, I can only hope that Adams will find it in his money-grubbing, woo-filled heart to continue this awards process next week and list his "Hall of Shame" bloggers. I fully expect to be on such a list, given the quality of Adams' TruthWiki entry about a certain friend of the blog. Of course, I realize that by revealing that I consider inclusion on such lists a badge of honor I take the risk that Adams will purposely ignore me, as some other antivaccine bloggers have done. I'll take that risk.

Happy Holidays, my faithful minions.

oracknows Wed, 12/23/2015 - 02:45

Yoru Teruhiko's pretty cool! She says she might stop in later.

...Psst: Cool song, bros.

Wow, Orac! Sharyl *really* likes you. Even more than Steve Novella. Congrats for making her hit list in one form or another 5 times (counting Sciblogs and SBM). And, as shown by her mad accurate editing skillz, she actually has SBM listed twice.

Happy holidays and may you continue to make her lists as an evil Pharma Shill.

Of slight interest, NYU philosopher and anti-GMO luddite Nassim Nicholas Taleb called Attkisson's TEDX talk on astoturfing "brilliant." He also was part of the brigade of science-deniers that forced Folta to retreat.

Sad to see a smart guy descend into conspiracy theory lunacy. I would love to him discussed here sometime.

Hard to tell if it's worth the effort. Dude has a reputation of having a thin skin and being very abusive. I've observed his Twitter feed.

JP says she/he gonna get a radio show soon, on the college station. Stay tuned!

...Oh, wait. That's me!

Poor Glenn Greenwald. He didn't deserve that (dis)honor. Plus I hate to be reminded that there's at least one issue that I agree with Mike Adams on.

Merry Christmas, (belated) happy Hanukkah, happy holidays and New Year to Orac and the minions. May your holiday shill bonuses be bountiful!

Sorry for the OT drive-by posting, but I thought some of Orac's long time readers might be interested in this:

Maternal use of acetaminophen during pregnancy and risk of autism spectrum disorders in childhood: A Danish national birth cohort study

Prenatal use of acetaminophen was associated with an increased risk of ASD accompanied by hyperkinetic symptoms (HR = 1.51 95% CI 1.19–1.92), but not with other ASD cases (HR = 1.06 95% CI 0.92–1.24). Longer duration of use (i.e., use for >20 weeks in gestation) increased the risk of ASD or infantile autism with hyperkinetic symptoms almost twofold. Maternal use of acetaminophen in pregnancy was associated with ASD with hyperkinetic symptoms only, suggesting acetaminophen exposure early in fetal life may specifically impact this hyperactive behavioral phenotype.

bit.ly/1YvbGvj

That's 4 out of 4 studies now that have looked at acetaminophen use in pregnancy and found adverse neurodevelopmental outcomes.

Cheers!

@Jen in TX: Hey, Jen! Long time, no see. Happy holidays.
Your link is broken. I'd like to see where the study is from and how it measured things. Taking acetominophen for more than 20 weeks, in my mind, links to the fact that there are other maternal health issues. Maybe those health issues lead to ASDs with hyperkinetic symptoms? And why would it lead to only one type of ASD?

Amusing that the "TruthWiki" entry on a certain skeptical blogger alleges that he "speaks in nasty tones, mocking and demeaning".

Thank goodness that we can always count on NN to show us the way by being polite and respectful.

(FYI: Newer minions should know that clicking on Orac's link for the ((shudder)) 'Journalist Courage' awards will be diverted to an article bombastically declaring Mike's greatest achievements**. Instead g--gle the title of said article and go to that.)

At any rate, I can't help but notice that prominent amongst the hated are women who support abortion as well as vaccines.

Seriously guys, you live in a sophisticated society ( at least in PARTS) in the twenty-first frigging century - support for abortion is NOT a fringe position. WHAT audience are these guys courting? Rural? Conservative? Religious? Certainly not libertarians- with whom Mike identifies- who would probably support non-interference in personal decisions.

I think that this issue is something that goes even beyond concern about earning money because what he says could alienate those who support abortion- a majority IIRC. Mike shows his true position.

** lying habitually about medicine and earning obscene amounts of money?

Hi Dawn! (waves)
Been super busy-I've gone back to work full-time now, so the hubs can be a full time caregiver to our son (one of those 'perks' of autism--taking a fully capable adult out of the workforce to be a full-time caregiver to a dependent adult child) so I only swing by to read what's new every so often now.

As for the study, I don't think that they looked at postnatal exposures, which as I'm all too aware, can manifest as aberrant behaviors in some autistics, and so that is something that will have to be looked at, and I'm sure it will...eventually. Brain development is still rapidly occurring throughout infancy and toddlerhood, so if these exposures are continuing, such as with post-circumcision pain, or to treat a 2 month old's post-vaccine fever, or a 15 month old's teething pain or ear infection, or to help them sleep...and so on and so forth...I think you get the idea.

But those are great questions, Dawn! All in all, I am pleased to see these studies finally being done. A little bird told me that there are more coming. Stay tuned.

Happy Holidays to you and yours,
Jen

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aur.1591/abstract

(FYI: Newer minions should know that clicking on Orac’s link for the ((shudder)) ‘Journalist Courage’ awards will be diverted to an article bombastically declaring Mike’s greatest achievements**. Instead g–gle the title of said article and go to that.)

Well, that's weird. One link isn't redirected (the journalist "award") and the other (celebrity hall of shame) is redirected. I've noticed that Adams sometimes redirects traffic coming from this site to his "accomplishments" BS page, but this is inconsistent behavior.

Wait. I think I might have figured it out. When I turned off AdBlocker Plus, the redirect no longer occurred. Not sure if this is what's going on, but anecdotally it worked for me.

The link works/ worked for the Hall of Shame but not for the Courage Awards. Usually Mike does this for article he writes himself.
I don't use any ad-blocks - my computer is strictly no-frills just like me.

Yeah, neither redirected for me either with ABP* or without. I am on my phone though some maybe it is user agent specific.

Denice Walter@14

my computer is strictly no-frills just like me.

I make liberal use of Firefox addons and about:config tweaks. Custom browsers for custom people. ;)

*I recommend uBlock Origin over ABP. Not a huge fan of ABP's whitelisted ads policy (for pay whitelisting is too close to extortion). Plus uBlock is faster and more customizable anyways.

@ capnkrunch:

Thanks but I'll leave well enough alone. I just disregard ads.

Be that as it may...

re Glenn Greenwald:
OF COURSE they'll add him!
These idiots style themselves as the *ne plus ultra* of new media and, with delusions of grandeur, count themselves amongst the movers and shakers.

The little fcker at prn.fm often includes material from reasonable people like GG in order the show how relevant and important his own self-proclaimed *groundshaking* revelations are.
The Establishment is the enemy so anyone who reveals anything critical- reaisticallyl or not- of that is fine.
HOWEVER notice that they include others like Rapaport, Russian TV, Alex Jones, AoA etc.

OT: Speaking of Mike Adams, I'm getting worried about him. He's continuing to go further and further off the deep end. Check out today's article accusing nebulous GMO promoters for purposefully putting E Coli into Chipotle food

Congratulations to the blinky box of lights. You're in excellent company.

@18

Speaking of Mike Adams, I’m getting worried about him. He’s continuing to go further and further off the deep end

That was stunningly.... insane.

Geraldo Rivera, because he Tweeted that the “second amendment is stupid.”

Rivera actually got something right?

Happy Holidays to you, too, Orac and all the minions here and at SBM. Wishing you a fun 2016 and keep being a burr under the saddle of those who deserve it.

I must admit that I haven’t heard of many of the other “journalists” given this “honor,”

You've never heard of James O'Keefe? He's the smug scumbag that created the fabricated ACORN 'sting' videos, and inspired the similar video 'exposes' of Planned Parenthood. Poor Glenn Greenwald, stuck on a list with O'Keefe and gonzo-gun-nut Pete Santilli. Mikey sure has a rather, uhh, unique world view. make a Venn diagram of the fans of his various hero journalists, and he has to be the only human being in the overlap of all the circles.

Denice asks "WHAT audience are these guys courting?" One way to answer would be, 'people who can read that post without their head exploding from the contradictions.' To follow Denice's more specific concern, how can the 'thinking mom' anti-vaxers square themselves with the misogyny of the anti-abortion rhetoric, and the 'bring guns to school!" insanity? I can only imagine their vaccine obsessions are so singularly the focus of their attention, they just don't see the other stuff – the words go in one eye and out the other without being processed. Perhaps this is more-or-less true with devotees of Mikey's other wacky ideas: gun nuts, survivalists, pro-lifers. The one group I can't see as being so blindered is the anti-GMO folks, who would seem to be the core market of a 'Natural Foods' business. Holding to a certain level of anti-corporatism and 'the naturalistic fallacy' hardly makes one an outre obsessed lunatic... But then, the stuff Mikey sells isn't just 'organic' or 'natural', as in the consumer just posits 'i think this is safe and healthy'. They can get that at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and now even Lucky and Costco. Mikey's schtick is hyper-natural: SuperFood! It doesn't just exclude the bad stuff, it's manipulated to unlock the miracles hidden within Nature and perform magic: cure all ailments and drink from the Fountain of Youth! So maybe if you're into that deeply enough, your brain just glazes over the stuff like raves for the likes of O'Keefe and Santilli. (???)

In any event, I'd guess Mikey's rantings only function to appeal to zealots of one stripe or another, which may be only a small portion of his customer base. I wonder how many of his customers never go past the store pages to read his posts, but I'd guess it's a good sized majority...

@DW

Certainly not libertarians- with whom Mike identifies- who would probably support non-interference in personal decisions.

Actually the overlap between gibbertarians and forced birth is substantial. You have confused libertarian property rights with rights of property. A man should be able to what he wants with his property but his property does not have the right to bodily autonomy.

Incoherent babbling about initiation of force expected within the next 5 posts.

You’ve never heard of James O’Keefe? He’s the smug scumbag that created the fabricated ACORN ‘sting’ videos, and inspired the similar video ‘exposes’ of Planned Parenthood.

Oh, that guy? I just didn't remember who did those ACORN videos.

Santilli ( and possibly a few more listed) have shows on Mikey's Talk Network.
It's like prn.fm with guns.

@ sadmar:

Both Mike and the other idiot ramp up fear of diverse natural and societal disaster and then tell followers how they can be saved through their tutelage. They has the answer.

Just like they do with fears about serious illness ( along the lines of "Your lifestyle is planting the seeds of cancer / CVD and here's how to REVERSE the trend/ cure yourself").

So sad to see that Professional Ignoramus Lawrence Solomon didn't make the cut. I guess it's because after his great start to 2015, his antivax advocacy fizzled out by the end of June.
Citing Vaccinefactcheck.org (no link intentionally).

Hey! Who wants Indian food? I think I might get the vegetarian thali, whatever it's called, that big plate where they bring lots of different curries and various things, naan, rice, etc. And, like, maybe some mango lassi. And ice water.

@ JP:

You should order for the rest of the minions.
Get me a Ras Malai.

@JP
Currently eating butter chicken poutine on my way to see my Canadian family.

Pretty good Indian food. We sort of ordered too much, and they took forever settling up the bill, and they wouldn't listen to me when I told them to take the leftovers and give them to somebody sleeping on the f*cking street at Christmastime, but I think I may have finally convinced them when I yelled "Thanks!" while waltzing out.

-JP

I did let them convince me to take some leftovers home for myself. The stuff I already had on my plate, basically.

NYU philosopher and anti-GMO luddite Nassim Nicholas Taleb called Attkisson’s TEDX talk on astoturfing “brilliant.” ... Sad to see a smart guy descend into conspiracy theory lunacy.

I remember Taleb started out strongly rejecting the idea that financial systems needed stronger regulations, because banks themselves were the best judges of whether a given transaction or derivative was risky -- after all, they would be the ones who would suffer if it failed. Those people who were worrying about the riskiness? What a pack of fearmongers.
Then the financial markets went all pear-shaped and Taleb suddenly was all "spotting risks in advance.is so difficult".

Really, there is a fire somewhere waiting for Taleb to die in it.

Did CBS fire that guy's ass yet for making up a bs news story?

I so thoroughly despise Mr. Adams and his ability to redirect links to his bullsh!t articles promoting how great natural news is. Thank you ORAC for attempting to circumvent the efforts of NN and assisting those of us who would like to view the offending material. The chicanery of Adams has no bound. I would like to express my hope that most Americans can see through the charade or at least the nincompoopery that is Natural News. This election cycle seems to be a good litmus test to see how well the education system in our fair country is doing. Have a great day, ORAC!

"FYI: Newer minions should know that clicking on Orac’s link for the ((shudder)) ‘Journalist Courage’ awards will be diverted to an article bombastically declaring Mike’s greatest achievements**."

As a very successful salesman I once worked for told me: the more you have to tell the customer how great your product is the less they believe you.

Hi!

Sadmar --

You’ve never heard of James O’Keefe? He’s the smug scumbag that created the fabricated ACORN ‘sting’ videos,

You shouldn't let the generous spirit of the season temper your judgments so much. I would have used much stronger language for O'Keefe myself. :-)

So sad to see that Professional Ignoramus Lawrence Solomon didn’t make the cut.

Nor Rappoport.

The most idiotic award of the year was granted, oddly enough, by the Federation of German Scientists. They gifted Seralini, that old fraud, with their whistleblower prize. There goes another institution of scientists, taken over by the politicians who care only about catapulting the propaganda. No wonder people don't trust scientists anymore.

Interestingly, both Infowars and NaturalNews recently have claimed that Seralini was vindicated in court, winning a suit because his detractor ( a Monsieur Fellous) defamed him fraudulently.

I haven't read the material in detail but I've been seeing it for about 2 weeks now.

FYI, at The Poxes Blog, Reuben has his voting list up for 2015's Douchebag of the Year (voting open until Jan 1, 2016 and midnight eastern standard time): https://thepoxesblog.wordpress.com/2015/12/29/vote-for-2015s-douchebag-…

I forgot I was on the Attkisson "astroturf" list! Yay for me!

When did I ever claim to be representing a grass roots org? Or any org?

Recall that one of Attkisson's big autism/vaccine stories was the Hannah Poling settlment. Which story I broke. So, she's copying an astroturfer!

What do Mike Adams, Todd Starnes, and William Proxmire have in common?

oracknows — Wed, 19 Aug 2015 06:30:33 +0000

What do Mike Adams, Todd Starnes, and William Proxmire have in common?

Readers of this blog of a certain age and above are likely to remember a U.S. Senator from Wisconsin named William Proxmire. Sen. Proxmire made a name for himself in the late 1970s and throughout much of the 1980s by issuing what he dubbed "The Golden Fleece Award," which was meant to "honor" public officials who, in Proxmire's view, egregiously wasted taxpayer money. It was a popular and often headline-grabbing device to highlight wasteful spending. There was one big problem with the award, though, that I increasingly appreciated as time went on, to the point where I've referred to the awards as the most ridiculously anti-intellectual and anti-science publicity stunt carried out by a politician for a sustained period of time that I can recall. It's a tradition that continues to this day, where, as I put it, right wing politicians pander to their base by attacking funny-sounding science that they can't understand. Sure, they can make the research sound funny—ridiculous, even—but when looked at dispassionately, from a scientific point of view, the science usually ends up being sound, or at the very least not the pointless parody that politicians launching Golden Fleece-style attacks on it portray.

In no way am I claiming that science is above criticism or that projects of dubious scientific value never receive NIH funding. Just look at the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health, formerly known as the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, for near-endless examples. However, when it comes to funding issued by NIH and NSF branches not created to support quackery and pseudoscience, projects "worthy" of such mockery are much, much less common. In any case, it's not surprising that FOX News has joined this disreputable tradition started by William Proxmire, particularly when the subject of the grant involves anything that can be drawn into the culture wars over, say, gay rights. Witness a particularly dim FOX Radio host attack a grant to study differences in obesity prevalence based on sexual orientation:

The National Institutes of Health awarded a Boston hospital more than $1.5 million to figure out why nearly three-quarters of lesbians are overweight — calling the disparities a significant public health issue.
“It is now well-established that women of minority sexual orientation are disproportionately affected by the obesity epidemic, with nearly three-quarters of adult lesbians overweight or obese, compared to half of heterosexual women,” according to a description of the grant.

Wow. I was completely unaware of this disparity. It sounds as though it's a disparity that's worth studying to me as a physician and a scientist. Not surprisingly, Starnes disagrees, quoting, of all people, Tony Perkins:

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, said it is disturbing that tax dollars are being used to fund the study.

“When you look at a nation that’s $17 trillion in debt – there’s a reason. It’s because we do frivolous studies that serve no benefit other than to give a special interest group something to talk about,” he told Fox News. “Why are we issuing grants to study things that have no affect on the well-being of the nation as a whole?”

Of course, a grant of $1.5 million is what, 0.005% of the roughly $30 billion NIH budget, which is in turn less than 0.8% of the $3.9 trillion federal budget. By Perkins' "logic," such as it is, studies examining why, for example, Ashkenazi Jews are more susceptible to breast cancer would have no affect on the nation as a whole, given that only 1.4% of the US population is Jewish. Yes, I chose this example intentionally, given that recent estimates find that 1.8% of men self-identify as gay and 0.4% as bisexual, and 1.5% of women self-identify as lesbian and 0.9% as bisexual, numbers slightly higher than the percentage of Jews in the US population. Does Perkins object to studies that target health concerns of Jews?

Be that as it may, to really ramp up the brain-meltingly antiscientific stupid with respect to medical research, even Todd Starnes is not enough. You need Mike Adams. Take it away, Mike:

This story is not satire. According to a study funded by the National Institutes of Health and awarded to a Boston hospital for more than $1.5 million, some mysterious phenomenon is covertly making lesbians obese, in apparent violation of the dietary laws of cause and effect.

For now, I'm calling this phenomenon "obesity gremlins," and here's how a NIH-funded study describes this extraordinary mystery.

And:

Astonishingly, the NIH is describing how lesbians are being made obese without having any role whatsoever in the process!

Yes, that's the way to demonize science you don't like. Make up a disparaging name for a phenomenon that the scientists aren't even studying and then repeat it ad nauseam. In other words, construct a ridiculous-sounding straw man for what the scientists are actually proposing and then following up with deceptive analogies designed to pander to the scientifically illiterate:

Just to clarify how all this language is being parsed, allow me to explain the obvious:

If you are sitting in a city park and are suddenly impacted by, let's say, a golf ball, then you have just been impacted by an outside force completely out of your control. But if you are sitting in front of a Golden Corral buffet, stuffing your face with genetically modified macaroni and cheese grub, then you are not "affected" by an "epidemic." Nope, you made yourself obese by overeating!

Of course, this idea that any individual should be held responsible for their own actions is completely disavowed across both the medical community as well as the pathetic pop culture of victimization that has overtaken American culture. Now, even when people do things to themselves (or make bad decisions leading to results they don't want), it's somehow never their own fault. How could it be?

According to the rigorous scientific thinking at the NIH, some outside force is "affecting" the lesbians and making them obese in some sort of occult way that apparently violates the laws of cause and effect. The obesity epidemic has STRUCK them, didn't you know? It's kind of like being struck by lightning, but it involves a barrage of pizzas and chocolate truffles instead of really bright flashes of light.

Obesity is a complex phenomenon, and there is no doubt at all that over the last three or four decades Americans have been progressively, on average, getting fatter. You might have seen the animated maps of the United States that show graphically how obesity has become more and more common in each state since the 1980s. To give you an idea, in 1990 less than 15% of the adult population was obese in most states, but by 2010 26 states had obesity rates of 25% or higher and 12 of those had obesity rates of 30% or higher. Nationwide, around two out of three adults in the US are overweight or obese, and one out of three is obese. Worse, obesity is becoming more and more common in children, who are becoming overweight and obese at earlier ages. This is a major health problem, and there are major racial disparities in obesity prevalence.

Now, at a very basic level obesity is about energy in versus energy out, food intake versus energy expenditure. As Steve Novella points out, there are three main hypotheses as to what is causing the obesity epidemic, and they are not mutually exclusive. One is that we are more sedentary, spending less time exercising and more time in front of the computer or television. The second is that people are consuming more calories. A third is that certain types of calories have more of an effect on obesity than others; i.e., the type of calories (fat versus carbohydrates) is what contributes to obesity.

I tend to agree with Steve that the third hypothesis is better for selling fad diets and weight loss supplements but not particularly convincing as an explanation for the obesity epidemic. I also tend to agree that a major contributor is likely to be that Americans are consuming more food, with increased portion sizes and more and easier snacking contributing to the problem. I don't want to make this into a post primarily about what is causing the obesity epidemic, as that is a topic for an Orac epic post, and I simply don't have time for 5,000+ words today. The reason I briefly discussed this is to emphasize that it is a complex topic that we don't understand that well and, more importantly, that it is worth studying. Moreover, studying reasons for disparities in obesity prevalence between different social, racial, and ethnic groups can suggest hypotheses and potential contributors to being prone to become obese. In other words, if there is a group, be it based on sex, race, or, yes, even sexual orientation, that has a higher prevalence of obesity, it is probably worth studying why. How much worth studying is a value judgment, but in the scheme of biomedical research, a single $1.5 million grant is not that much money. Certainly, it's not worthy of such mockery.

Take a look at the description of the study. It turns out that there are virtually no data about why these disparities come about in lesbians:

Despite clear evidence from descriptive epidemiologic research that sexual orientation and gender markedly pattern obesity disparities, there is almost no prospective, analytic epidemiologic research into the causes of these disparities. It will be impossible to develop evidence-based preventive interventions unless we first answer basic questions about causal pathways, as we plan to do. Our study has high potential for public health impact not only for sexual minorities but also for heterosexuals, as we seek to uncover how processes of gender socialization may exacerbate obesity risk in both sexual minority females and heterosexual males. In response to PA-07-409 "Health Research with Diverse Populations," we will rigorously test our innovative gendered biopsychosocial model that is both multilevel and multisystem to explain observed sexual orientation disparities in obesity. We will use longitudinal, repeated measures survey data and also biological data from three youth cohorts: Growing Up Today Study (GUTS) 1 & 2 and National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health), all ongoing prospective cohorts that together total over 47,000 youth living throughout the United States.

Personally, as a heterosexual man myself, I was interested in the observation that gay men have a nearly two-fold decreased prevalence of obesity. So why are lesbians more prone to obesity than straight women and gay men less prone to it than straight men? No one knows, but don't you think it's worth studying? I do. I also wonder why Adams is complaining about this study now, given that it was originally funded in 2011 and runs until 2016. (It's not as though right wing loons haven't been complaining about this study for a while now.) In other words, the study is almost over. In fact, looking at the NIH entry on the grant, I see that it was originally funded as an R01 grant in 2011, and, as a five year grant, will end in 2016 unless the investigators can renew it, which will depend on productivity; i.e., publications. I also note that Starnes and Adams are clueless about how NIH grants work, namely that a five year R01 is treated as five one-year grants for budgetary purposes, that they didn't realize that the total amount funded was actually $3.5 million.

Finally, note the fat shaming implicit in Adams' little screed. He assumes that losing weight is entirely a matter of self-control and that if you're fat it's your own damned fault for choosing to eat too much. We know that the true situation is way more complicated than that, and that willpower-based methods of obesity reduction have a high rate of failure. Of course, Adams is blatantly selective about when he wants to blame only the obese themselves for being obese or blame something else. Of course, elsewhere on Adams' website, it is argued that "calories are not the enemy" and "you are not weak" if you're fat, while other NaturalNews.com writers blame GMOs, big pharma, and anything else he doesn't like for making Americans obese and sick.

Same as it ever was. In fact, Adams goes even further, labeling the research "homophobic" when, if anything, his mockery of the study descends into bigotry when he writes that the reason for the study is because "the simple explanation that "maybe lesbians are just eating too much crappy food all the time" wouldn't generate millions of dollars in government grant money, would it?"

Project much, Mikey?

Is this study a good study? I don't know. There's not enough information in NIH rePORTER for me to judge, and, even if I had the complete grant application in my hand, I still might not be able to tell. I'm not an epidemiologist. However, I trust peer reviewers at the NIH to judge what is and isn't good science far more than I trust Mike Adams.

oracknows Wed, 08/19/2015 - 02:30

So why are lesbians more prone to obesity than straight women and gay men less prone to it than straight men?

I don't know the definitive answer as well, but I can think of some suggestions. Probably gay man are a bit more attracted to males with healthy looking body's, so they want to keep in shape in order to stay sexually attractive. Of course you also have gay males who are more into sugar daddy's. Lesbians seem to look different at their potential partner, so perhaps a slim body is not that important. Something else may be comfort food.

I dislike Miky and co.

But i've to admit that this study look like 'wasted' money. It would have been better to spend this in global obesity study (or even better, prevention) than this. We don't have a clue about what could cause disparities between men and women behavior (beside forced cultural stereotypes) and even less about what could cause sexual orientation. So i really doubt the :

'It will be impossible to develop evidence-based preventive interventions unless we first answer basic questions about causal pathways, as we plan to do"

"causal" pathway ? Huh... At very best this will deliver some pyshcosocial correlative theory. We need more fundamental comprehension of how the brain behave in those ulta specific and complex situation.

Note that those disparties are interesting of course, but the project make fake promises in my opinion.

Of course, my point was that I trust peer reviewers more than non-scientists to determine whether this is or is not a good study.

Overlooked here seems to be the possibility that whatever is causing the differences in body weight in the gay community might give us a handle on how to approach everyone else and end or lessen the obesity epidemic. I think that is worth the money, and I look forward to reading about the findings.

@Orac : Yes i get it. What i meant is that, from an external and taxepayer point of view, I could understand why this study may sound silly. But science and media communication never worked well together...

Few exception of course... Like this awesome blog ! (tada)/

Im looking forward about the findings. Thanks for sharing.

Anomalies are always worth a second look. Understanding cholesterol synthesis and metabolism was driven by observations of a very few people with cholesterol levels many times higher than normal who died very young from coronary vessel blockages. Understanding of how HIV infects immune cells was greatly facilitated by the observation that some people, despite engaging in high-risk sexual behaviors for HIV infection, just didn't get infected. If there are large disparities in rates of obesity based on sexual orientation, there may well be a biochemical explanation as well.

If Mike Adams could find a way to qualify to apply for NIH grant monies, you could be sure he'd do it.

I didn't read Mikey yet ...in order to write purely from emotion
.
that disparity is something I've often observed and speculated upon. I have always known more gay men than I have lesbians ( which is my loss/ however my family has both) so I know that *some* of them have a particular attitude about weight that partially resembles that of fashionable, straight women who live in and around large cities. Weight and appearance are extremely important and are 'worked upon' .' Thinner' also appears 'younger' .Perfect grooming also may accompany this attribute.
But then there are bears.

I've encountered the old expression ( from lesbians themselves) ' b___ dy__'( I really don't know if it's offensive or not these days so I'll blank letters out) - a heavy, strong woman who dresses in a more 'masculine' ( whatever that means) fashion. I've thought that perhaps gaining extra weight illustrates ( this is PURELY speculative) that she doesn't want to look at all like the fashionista - she separates herself from that entirely-and that weight itself can invoke a personal sense of power or strength- more like what the traditional male stereotype demanded..
But then there are/ were those so-called 'lipstick' lesbians who presented a more standard feminine image.

Of course all of this represents particular visible groups within larger populations and I'm sure we could find just as many 'lipstick' straight women and metro men. Perhaps so-called millenials are breaking down many of these groupings through fashion choices and styles of self-presentation which even affect people as old as me...
Most of my clothes could easily be worn by a guy- it's an androgynous chic that is now very lucrative for fashion designers and clothing manufacturers to pursue. As one of my gentlemen often asks, "Is that my shirt or yours?"

Anecdotally, I have three youngish gay men and one straight guy living next door and they seem to strikingly bear out the stereotypes ( the gay fellows are thin and the other is a little heavier than average). Another stereotype I've *felt* is that there are locations where people are thinner on the average than others - I feel more *average* there but quite *thin* in other usually more rural locales.

As I said, this is purely observation and speculation but I don't necessarily value one style over another- it's what people want for themselves, who THEY are- nothing to do with me.

Do I imagine that there's something *physiological" going on- who knows? I know that there's the meme that by measuring relative finger lengths you can differentiate types ( gay man-straight female vs straight man- lesbian) but I don't know whether that's valid

Now I'll read that Idiot's article.

He is an idiot.

It should be noted that Mike may have been overly focused upon weight himself:
the old Health Ranger site ( since scrubbed) had images of him posed in a sleeveless shirt for his fans along with measures of his height, weight and blood chemistry. His bio ( both the old and the present one @ HR.com) declare that he was heavy and sick at age 30 with type 2 diabetes. BUT he straightened up and flew right to get lean and mean.

More recently, I've noticed that he has been increasingly photographed wearing his lab coat which may cover much.
His face looks heavy, lab coats don't cover that.

@Renate #1 The answer may be behavioural, but it would be very useful to understand what the drivers of any pathological or beneficial behaviours actually are. A study of a minority might offer insights more readily available than a general population study. And with the potential for some genetic/biochemical underpinning of sexual orientation, there is the further potential for this study to reveal differences in calorie handling related to injested source (carb v fat). I happen to agree with Orac and Steve Novella that this is actually the least pormising angle of attack, but it needs to be addressed if only to confirm a null hypothesis so science can move on. To confuse things though the UK appears be muddying the waters of just what is distinctly gay/lesbian versus the state of being hetero. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if-half-of-young-people-are-a-littl… This survey is somewhat at varience with Orac's US circa 1% figures - maybe it's our unfracked, GMO free drinking water that's sendings us all Bi ?

More speculation- non-physiologically ?-

Do people- male, female, gay, straight, any age- who follow fashion aim for lower weights and try to control weight more than those who aren't as concerned?**

It's not just mimicking models' appearance but awareness of how clothes LOOK - how they hang- on a thinner frame.

** then we might ask why do they choose to like fashion? Is that somehow physiological? Hormonal? Who knows.

Not surprisingly, Starnes disagrees, quoting, of all people, Tony Perkins:

The Family Research Council - far more obsessed with gay sex than any gays are.

I was somewhat agnostic about the study's aim but Denice and Dr. Hickie made excellent points about why this disparity should be studied.

The Family Research Council – far more obsessed with gay sex than any gays are.

Isn't that the organisation the sexual-molester Josh Duggar recently left?

Proxmire is a keen example of why we should not pontificate on things we don't properly understand.

He gave the award to a study of the sex life of the screw-worm fly. The results were used to create sterile screw-worms that were released into the wild[, eliminating] this major cattle parasite from the US and reducing the cost of beef across the globe.

He also gave the award to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) for their Search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) program, supporting the scientific search for extraterrestrial civilizations. Proxmire later withdrew his opposition to the SETI program.

Does Perkins object to studies that target health concerns of Jews?

No, but remember -- the Jews are God's chosen people and lesbians are sinners out to destroy the moral fabric of American society. Because sexual orientation is a choice, y'know.

They could be happy and thin and straight and have lots of babies if they just chose to follow Jesus (like the Duggars!)

MA@12: You beat me to it. Tony Perkins is one of those people that, if you should ever find yourself agreeing with him, you are probably on the wrong side of that issue. As repeatedly documented on the Slacktivist blog, Perkins is a particularly obnoxious sort of faux Christian who takes an even more casual attitude than most such toward bearing false witness.

So why are lesbians more prone to obesity than straight women

One word: beer.

(No, but seriously, lesbians also drink significantly more than straight women. I have my suspicions as to why*.)

and that weight itself can invoke a personal sense of power or strength- more like what the traditional male stereotype demanded..

That's part of it too, as is generally not giving a f*ck, which is related.

*Back in my apartment, which I'm not staying in this week, because I'm taking care of a doggy, I have a collection of pretty much all of Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For strips. I'm thinking of one in particular where two characters are sitting in bed and one is reading the paper, which reports that lesbians, esp. of color, experience significantly more stress than straight women, etc. "So I guess 'stress' is the new word for oppression."

the Jews are God’s chosen people

I'll hand the microphone to Tevye: "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"

Apologies for that really bad grammar @13.

@ JP:

You know, I wonder if there might be changing attitudes about physical power and strength amongst women in general - making it not as desirable to be stick-thin as it was in the 1990s- that may also reflect upon bodily strength as symbolic of other strengths-
it has to be symbolic - we can't all be Serena Williams.

There have been echoes of this throughout feminism but it seems to be more obvious these days..And maybe, just maybe, it may make ( perhaps) younger women more tolerate of weight and not as vigilant or obsessive as they could have been.

-btw- I can tell you stories about straight male obsessional concerns with weight and appearance that would curl ( or straighten) your hair (as the case might be).
Oh wait, you don't have hair.

"...might give us a handle on how to approach everyone else and end or lessen the obesity epidemic."

Perhaps, but in my admittedly small sample size, the homosexual men I know are obsessed with their bodies and exercising. Most aren't particularly healthy eaters either with many tending towards eating disorders.

I don't know if their choices are a practical or desirable trait with the exception of being in shape. Hopefully the study will shed some light into this but I can tell you now that 2 hours in the gym each day is out of the equation for me. I'll just have to die relatively young.

Denice:

I used to teach at Mils, a women's college which had a high percentage of lesbian students. Within that community (in which 'dyke' is a term of pride), the butch/femme distinction is a non-controversial 'fact-of-life'. Many couples included one partner who was more one-than-another. Femmes were not typically 'lipstick lesbians' into makeup and fashion. They were simply not easily distinguishable from the range of 'breeder' college women. Butches, on the other hand, groomed and dressed in ways clearly derived from masculine codes, yet modified in ways such that they didn't literally look like men. And while butches might have more interest in typically 'guy' things (e.g. fixing cars instead of baking) when you got to know them, there was almost never any sense they were 'trying to be men'.

There was no absolute correlation between these 'sub-genders' and body morphology or conventional ideals of facial attractiveness. While heavy and/or plain women were somewhat more likely to be butch, that was anything but universal. The most butch of all my students carried no extra weight, and had features that would be pretty universally considered 'really cute' while her femme partner was modestly obese and 'average-looking' at best. We also had butch students who were actress-or-fashion-model slim. This was 15 years ago now, and I've forgotten some of the detail, but I distinctively recall my surprise at discovering so many students, and especially the butches, were the opposite of stereotype.

To venture a couple purely speculative cultural/psychological factors, I'd observe that by that time (late 90s) weight was no longer a sign of physical strength in the culture at large, but considered a sort of weakness or handicap – the medical perils of obesity being well known by the time. 'Strong' meant 'fit'. However, I did not see the butch students as attempting to code 'strength' in their manners. Of the couple I mentioned before, the butch was the more quiet and reserved, and he femme the more outgoing and 'stronger' personality. It seemed to me that butches, at least in part, were trying to negotiate a style that said to themselves and the world 'I do not fit your categories'. I found it a projection of 'difference' and 'limnality', not a secret desire to 'be a bro'. A good number of our butch students, had they not affected that style would have been hit-on constantly by guys when out in 'the general public'. I'd guess that a avoiding unwanted attention, and clearly signaling the sort of attention one does want is merely practical for some people.

Anyway, however things had been before, by the late 90s it was clear women did not need to gain weight to do that. Clothing, hairstyle, body language, vocabulary, etc. were more than capable of defining the role.

(BTW, the butch students didn't follow the 'angry dyke' stereotype either. I'm a nominally straight guy – not macho, but not at all 'metrosexual' (back then I used to consider Michael Moore a sort of kindred spirit) – and I got along equally well with the lesbian students across the gender coding range. What I did find made a difference was age. Mills had a number of older 'return-to-college' students in their 40s or 50s. For historical reasons, I'd guess, lesbians in that age group tended to be much more wary of and hostile to my moderate 'guy-ness' regardless of where there were on the butch-femme continuum.

Which is just to say that the rationales in favor of the study, as a good avenue to explore factors in obesity that might be applicable to a much wider range of patients, makes a lot of sense to me. As for Mikey and Fox... well what are their screeds but evidence there's probably something quite good in whatever they're attacking?

-btw- I can tell you stories about straight male obsessional concerns with weight and appearance that would curl ( or straighten) your hair (as the case might be).
Oh wait, you don’t have hair.

Oh, I've got a few of my own. My advisor is sort of adorably vain - one story which was related by an "academic sister" of mine involved them getting quite drunk one night at a conference, and him knocking on her hotel room door early in the morning (before a panel he was on, I think) asking for not aspiring, not a glass of water, but moisturizer. Specifically, the best she had.

It's wavy when it's long, btw, which it hasn't been in a long time. (My hair.)

In any case, I do more or less fit a certain feminine ideal, (probably NSFW) but it is not the fashion industry's.

What doesn't seem to have been expressed clearly (or I just didn't read it right) by the pro-study people Orac quoted should be made clear: Is obesity among WSW caused by social or cultural factors, or is it in some other way a concomitant of whatever determines sexual orientation?
As a practical point, there is an intrinsic value to seeing if there is some possible intervention in a subset that is approximately one percent of the population.
Going beyond that, the high prevalence of obesity in a fairly distinct subset of the population constitutes a kind of natural experiment that can enlighten research in a range of biosciences, medical disciplines, and behavioral sciences. Think of the huge prevalence of type 2 diabetes (~38%!) in the Pima Indian nation, which has been the subject of valuable research of various kinds for the last fifty years.

@ Orlac
I don't deny it is worth studying why obesity is different with gay and lesbian people and even if it's behavioural. Obesity seems to be a big problem, so it's worth to study, why certain groups are more prone to it, than others.

Old Rockin' Dave @24 -- I often have occasion to be around Tohono O'Odham ("People of the Desert" in their language), the close cousins of the Pimas. Apparently they adapted for many generations to an extremely sparse diet, and now that they have access to the gusher of calories that is the modern American diet, many of them have become very overweight.

I imagine someone is exploring just what genetic factors are involved, and how much is cultural (fry bread, anyone?)

Perkins said

“When you look at a nation that’s $17 trillion in debt – there’s a reason. It’s because we do frivolous studies that serve no benefit other than to give a special interest group something to talk about,

Anyone with a brain would realize ... or could quickly verify ... that so-called "frivolous studies" are likely near the bottom on any list of significant factors that have contributed to the U.S. national debt.

Of of course, that's not the audience Fox aims for.

Speaking of the debt though, what part do "faith based" organizations, like the FRC, play?

http://www.newsweek.com/are-churches-making-america-poor-243734

I'm not sure why Adams would shoot his mouth off on this issue as I can't see where it would boost his bottom line to do so.

Unless of course he's laying the foundation for a political career and is just trying to build support among the right wing idiot block as a means to propel him into the state legislature.

An interesting thing to note about that "three quarters of lesbians are overweight/obese vs. half of straight women" is that that statistic comes from a study with a sample size of 5,460 heterosexual women and... 87 lesbians.

@ DGR:

I've wondered myself if he fancies a political career.
Like the other idiot @ PRN, he imagines himself to be a great leader/ innovator and spends an inordinate amount of time discussing political and economic issues. I thought that they were supposed to be HEALTH experts- if you read his articles, sometimes it's more about politics and conspiracies.

@JP: 87 lesbians???? Good grief. While I can't claim to know 87 lesbians (I might, I just don't care about people's sexual preferences unless it's important...), the ones I DO know run the gradient from obese to overweight to average to slender to muscular. And a lot of it is just "them" - from the one who's a triathlete and her partner who is a personal trainer, the couple who are average, the couple where one is very heavy and her partner is average. Based on *MY* statistics, only 37% of all lesbians are overweight/obese, compared to the heterosexual/bisexual women I know, where about 50-60% are overweight/obese...

I thought that they were supposed to be HEALTH experts- if you read his articles, sometimes it’s more about politics and conspiracies.

Dunning-Kruger at its finest, with a garnish of crank magnetism. Of course Adams et al. can't just focus on health--that would be boring. So they have to invent reasons why their followers should follow them, and what better way to do that than to claim that they are letting their readers in on secrets that the PTB don't want people to know. Once you posit that the government is in on your pet conspiracy theory, taking an anti-government position is a logical follow-on.

I have noticed lately, from political sites I read, that US politics, especially of the right-wing Republican variety, is increasingly a grifter's game. Adams would fit in well with that crowd--he wouldn't even stand out all that much. It helps the grifters that, thanks to the Citizens United decision, there are effectively no limits on what rich people can spend on political campaigns, so it makes sense for Adams et al. to trawl for some of that vast amount of cash that is swimming by. Would Adams be crazy enough to be a candidate? Maybe. But maybe he's just smart enough to stick with being a campaign "advisor". Unless his ego gets the better of him.

Denice Walter wrote:

Do people- male, female, gay, straight, any age- who follow fashion aim for lower weights and try to control weight more than those who aren’t as concerned?

The opposite may also be going on: thinner people find it more rewarding to delve into fashion because designer clothes are made for them.

^ Here's a link (PDF) to the study I mentioned. The sample sizes can be found at the top of Table I on p. 3.

Mikey's up there with the best. Sarah Palin did the same type of thing “when she explained to the crowd how "[tax] dollars go to projects that have little or nothing to do with the public good — things like fruit fly research in Paris, France. I kid you not."

Except it wasn't fruit flies, it was not Paris and one good reason for funding the research was that the fly in question was also attacking California olive groves. http://www.livescience.com/5186-misdirected-criticism-palin-fruit-fly-r…

I can just hear Mikey, Proxmire & Palin telling Sir Alexander Fleming not to waste time on molds; a little bleach will kill them all ... Or, that Turing guy's queer; get rid of him, he's not the sort we want at Bletchley Park.

@ 31 Eric Lund
Would Adams be crazy enough to be a candidate
Given the current Republican line-up he'd be hard pressed to make the running.

@ Eric:

You are correct. He has been hawking right-ish causes at least since the economic crisis. Now he links to people like Michael Snyder via collapse.news who foresee COLLAPSE whilst the other idiot has Gerald Celente ( Trends Journal) predicting another economic Ragnarok before year's end.

Newer readers may not be familiar with my accounts of both their economic predictions that occurred in 2008-2009, so I'll briefly summarise :
Null especially held that the bottom would just keep dropping out without any recovery EVER. At the lows of the DJIA ( March 2009) he instructed his followers to take all of their money out of banks, bonds, stocks and put it into gold, silver ( coins, for easy spending) and farm land.
Both deny recovery ever happened.

OBVIOUSLY I didn't follow his advice and guess what? I'm fine. Everything 'came back'. The DJIA never hit 3000 but has hovered around 18000.Celente now says that gold prices are 'fixed' to be low. Then there's Stansberry ( see Brian Deer.com)

HOWEVER these alties have enthralled followers ( see comments after Mike's articles or hear phone responses to Null) who would do whatever they recommend. Null has a map and listing of where to move to avoid AGW and gang riots when the Final Collapse occurs.

I could see Adams looking for a political position - perhaps not running himself but sidling up to a candidate who supports similar nonsense to his own. He likes Trump. Earlier on, both of them supported- OBVIOUSYL- lower, flat income taxes, a national sales taxs and less government regulations. Both liked Rand Paul. Null supports third parties and Nader.

There's so much more but that's enough for now

@ Andreas Johansson:

That makes sense.

Michael Finfer, MD@4:

Overlooked here seems to be the possibility that whatever is causing the differences in body weight in the gay community might give us a handle on how to approach everyone else and end or lessen the obesity epidemic.

QFT. Scientist sees interesting pattern. Scientist conducts research to understand and explain that pattern, thus hopefully generating useful information that helps us to understand our world better. It took the human race a couple thousand years to figure out how to do this really well, and in a couple hundred has given us effective medicine, microwave ovens, the atomic bomb, global data networks, and more morons than ever before.

FOX News and Mike Adams denigrate scientific research to play to prejudices and purses of self-servingly ignorant narcissists who wouldn't know fact from fantasy, and have no wish to either; something FOX, Adams, and their like are only too happy to reinforce. But hey, as Bacon said, Knowledge itself is Power; he did not say it had to be right.

The Law of Universal Projection leads me to predict that when Mike Adams isn't sounding off against sceintific research into obesity and blaming fatness on personal vices, then he's selling magical weight-loss herbal compounds to his customers.

Re W. proxmire and the golden fleece. I recall a Canadian M.P. (Member of Parliament) publishing a list of gov't grants (through its various funding agencies) that he thought were a waste of money. One grant was to a mathematician for research in "Lie Theory" which the politician assumed had to do with human behavior. Sophus Lie (pronounced lee) was a Norwegian mathematician , after whom many important structures in algebra are named.

Quoth Mike Adams :"They're obese because they eat too much because they choose to. Now you know everything about it. No need for research. And the NIH must believe that their obesity is not caused by over-eating ,or else why would they fund a study?" This is amazing. I wish I could think like that. I could make a lot of money.

Maybe it's something stupidly simple?
For example, if there is cultural association between women and cooking, and result of that association is that number of women in household corellates with average calorie intake... well, I'll leave the rest as an exercise for the reader.

”They’re obese because they eat too much because they choose to. Now you know everything about it. No need for research"

Does this mean that there is no need for Adams-endorsed "weight-loss supplements" either?
http://www.naturalnews.com/038968_weight_loss_supplements_fitness.html#…

Does this mean that there is no need for Adams-endorsed “weight-loss supplements” either?

How could a supplement** help weight loss? Wouldn't you need a deficit for that?

**Which involves adding something.

@ puppygod:

You may have something there.

Some more speculation.

I was thinking about, as a social cause, a type of insularity, remaining from less enlightened times, where lesbians spend time with friends/ partners at home and THEN more food-oriented activities occur.

BUT then, isn't there a belief ( true or not) that men prefer women with a small waist;hip ratio - in the old days it meant she wasn't prego- because who ( in hungry primitive times) would want to foster non-genetically related children?

So lesbians may not be looking for men and may not need to keep the waistline under control.

Or maybe hormonal differences lead to changes in body fat.

Better link to Mike's weight-loss marketing:
http://www.naturalnews.com/038968_weight_loss_supplements_fitness.html

"Weight loss 101: Strategies, supplements and the top 10 pointers for achieving the body weight you want".

lesbians may not be looking for men

This is probably a safe bet.

But JP, they have SO many uses other than the obvious one.
They can be smart, funny, entertaining, some can write or draw REALLY well! Or even play musical instruments.

But JP, they have SO many uses other than the obvious one.

You can't go shark-fishing without the proper bait!

herr doktor, I'm not that mean.

But I do let them lift heavy appliances for me or drive me over mountain tops or alongside cliffs- which I hate doing myself.. It makes them feel good about themselves.

Whenever I have something to be assembled at work I let them help. They get such a kick out of it.

Sophus Lie (pronounced lee) was a Norwegian mathematician , after whom many important structures in algebra are named.

Kinda helpful in particle physics, as well.

But when Proxmire is called to mind, I tend to think of Ronald Hutchinson (Proxmire eventually settled).

They can be smart, funny, entertaining, some can write or draw REALLY well! Or even play musical instruments.

Some of us can even reach as high as the top shelf.

Look, I'm playing to my strengths, OK?

But I do let them lift heavy appliances for me or drive me over mountain tops or alongside cliffs- which I hate doing myself.. It makes them feel good about themselves.

I do seem to recall that you're not much of one for cooking, either. Just sayin'.

# 39 DanielWainfleet

Myron Thompson or perhaps Vic Toews?

I kinda miss Myron. He'd be an asset to Stevie today.

But JP, they have SO many uses other than the obvious one.
They can be smart, funny, entertaining, some can write or draw REALLY well! Or even play musical instruments.

Hey, some (many) of my best friends are men, as they say. In fact, there may have possibly been some tomfoolery and even feelings with some of them. Including one of the gay ones, because life wasn't weird enough.

One of my straight girlfriends, too. Seriously, I'm only moderately cute; I don't know what it is.

But I do let them lift heavy appliances for me or drive me over mountain tops or alongside cliffs- which I hate doing myself.. It makes them feel good about themselves.

When I was in a play a while back, hanging around in the dressing room, the director's assistant, who was about 5 feet tall and maybe 90 pounds soaking wet, was trying to open a jar of curry. She looks at me: "Are you strong?"

"...Yes."

And then I opened the jar for her. I did get a kick out of it, although I am not actually a guy, at least I wasn't the last time I checked.

Your link shows that the obesity maps are based on self-reported data, but people seem to have an inability to see themselves as obese, their children as obese...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11606-014-3002-y

And even their pets as obese...

http://www.petobesityprevention.org/u-s-pet-population-gets-fatter-owne…

If anything, doesn't this mean that the problem is even worse than the data indicate?

@ Narad:

I have other more esoteric skills.

@ Rich Woods:

I suspect that you sell yourself short.:

@ JP:

You have an interesting combination of intact reality testing and the gift of poetry.

-btw-
One of my creatures, who is 6' tall, works out in a gym, plays tennis, always comes to yours truly BECAUSE he can't open jars.
I know the magic trick.
Hilariously, I have thin, delicate hands that look entirely useless. They are not. I can draw and play the piano a little.

Science Mom

Isn’t that the organisation the sexual-molester Josh Duggar recently left?

Yes and now it has been revealed that he had an Ashley Madison account. Colour me unsurprised.

jrkrideau

Myron Thompson or perhaps Vic Toews?

I kinda miss Myron. He’d be an asset to Stevie today.

At least he was colourful Bufoon. His successor is merely a grinning idiot. In the last election that Myron ran in, the green party got 10% of the vote in his constituency, their highest percentage in any riding in the country. Allthoug some of this was probably from Banfff and Canmore, I think a lot of it was a protest vote by embarrassed Conservatives.

Ooooo, self-righteous molester prick Josh Duggar is in the Ashley Madison data dump.

Orac, your pull quotes don't do justice to how "dickish" the tone of Adam's article is. Reading it straight through makes me wonder how anyone could follow him.

You have a pretty brutal frontal attack but at least you do it with sophistication. His piece reads like it was written by a bully in junior high.

Yes, color me surprised again. It is just that up until now the closest I've ever gotten to "health nuts" has been Chris Kresser. I admit he appears to be a greedy sort by marketing all of the products he does on his website, but I can not imagine him ever writing a anything like that article.

Some of us can even reach as high as the top shelf.

Well, if you're pouring, make mine a Glenfarclas.

Well played, herr doktor.

And in that case, I'll take Grey Goose.

@JP #33

I'm reading the study you linked, but it seems the only measure of obesity is based on the Body Mass Index (BMI).
If that's the case, the disparity in those two groups is nothing mysterious, as BMI is a very poor indicator of obesity.

@ Not a Troll:

For sure.
I am always amazed by the level of discourse emanating from him and the other woo-meister. Remember that they're trying to pass themselves off as well-educated, erudite experts across the board ( see their bios) and they come off sounding like jack@asses. Teenaged jack@sses at that.

Of course, they DO want to speak their audiences' language but I venture that they are really quite similar themselves. People who have studied developmental psych and language( Ahem!) can usually place where a person's abilities measure up in comparison to others.

You mention Orac:- and I agree- he sounds like what he is- a well-educated doctor who also has studied areas outside his field- either for university credit or personal interest, Sometimes you read a commenter ( Kreb comes to mind) and before you read about his background you just KNOW- this guy has been to graduate school. There are quite a few like that here @ RI. What do they have in common? One is command of their native language so that they may express their ideas with ease; their jokes and metaphors are not extremely obvious and based purely upon physical resemblence,; there is word play, puns, irony and sarcasm, not slapstick.

These are more abstract, formal skills that develop during and throughout adolescence - not everyone does well College students and graduate students are more likely to be well versed in this than are secondary school students..

Most adults are skilled enough in person perception to differentiate levels - and so do audiences when they see a film or television show- is this for adults or kids? That's another formal skill itself although it has its start in childhood.

I sometimes laugh aloud when I hear Gary Null mispronouncing words/ names from science, literature or general information that most educated adults never botch - which is hilarious because he discusses philosophers - whose names he gets wrong **- or talks about the brain - and stumbles over important terms as well as malapropising items from politics or economics and mispronounding simple words from the news - a recent example, el Nino.

Mike goes for the lower rungs by usually resorting to *argumentum ad n-azium* ad nauseum. He calls people shills often or resorts to charges of corruption wheresoever his eyes alight.

I think that if a better educated person were trying to play this game, it would sound better. There are charlatans who have better educations and more facility with language. If they are also more skilled in understanding people, their ruses would also be less transparent. I can name quite a few.

** he especially botches names, places or terms in French, Spanish, German or Italian which he pronounces as they are spelled in English. The old Mozart phenomenon.

he especially botches names, places or terms in French, Spanish, German or Italian which he pronounces as they are spelled in English

That is, sadly, an all-too-common trait among Anglophones. Even educated types like the ones who work for the BBC: they insist that Nicaragua has five syllables, not four. And many places in the US are named after places in Europe that the settlers knew how to spell, but not pronounce: Versailles (pronounced VER-sails), IN; Milan (pronounced MY-lan), NH; New Madrid (pronounced MAD-rid), MO; and so forth. Not to mention the cities in Texas (and other southwestern states) with Spanish-derived names pronounced as if they were English, like Amarillo (in addition to getting most of the vowels wrong, the double L should sound like an initial Y, or the LLI in "million").

@ Eric Lund:

Oh I know.
Those are example fro the GENERAL Public and names that may be traditionally pronounced wrong for a century or more.
But he poses as an expert tin science, art, literature, philosophy, politics, economics and religion, one would think that with that devastating background, he shouldn't mispronounce or mis-use much. Even funnier is his tripping over place names in the UK - anything -cester or -ham- don't you learn that in primary school or by watching the news?

I doubt he studied any foreign languages- wasn't that a university requirement for people in his age group( 70+)?

@ Eric -- the Midwest is particularly bad at this. I have to remind myself to pronounce a certain town in Alexander County, Illinois to rhyme with the syrup and not the capital of Egypt.

Oddly enough, Bourbonnais is pronounced correctly even by the people who live there.

@ shay:

Right. There are probably reasons why something is pronounced not exactly in its original foreign form. I think especially of Anglophones butchering Spanish place names- is this tradition ( "Our ancestors were proudly illiterate in Spanish") or is it a way to say that they just don't like the Spanish influences? Or perhaps it's the same with other dang'd foreign words?

I just saw an article about mis-pro... I mean,
*Anglicised * French names in the UK- the writer asks if they indeed still resent the Norman Conquest?
Actually, I am named similarly in Franglaise ( vs Denise)

Interestingly, the Russian tennis player, Anna Sharapova, said that she has stuck with how English-speaking announcers mis-accentuate her name ( it should be stressed on the secon,d not the third syllable).Similarly the UK-US 'debate' over which syllable to stress in words used more frequently than a sports' star's name.

"No, but seriously, lesbians also drink significantly more than straight women"

A straight woman I know drinks wine and beer like it's going out of style, but it hasn't bred any lesbianism in her that I can detect (and I've looked), more's the pity.

"is that that statistic comes from a study with a sample size of 5,460 heterosexual women and… 87 lesbians."

Sigh. That's not even as much as the front row of an Ani DiFranco concert.

I wonder where bisexuals lie. I don't think we're as infrequent as the masses make us out to be. :\ But I'm sure a study of that would be considered a Waste Of Our Precious Tax Dollars.

@ Roadstergal:

I think that Kinsey would have agreed with you if you consider his scale.

Even funnier is his tripping over place names in the UK – anything -cester or -ham- don’t you learn that in primary school or by watching the news?

I don't know what part of the US Null is from, but if he spent time in New England there is no excuse for not knowing how to deal with "-cester". Worcester and Gloucester are prominent cities in Massachusetts, pronounced similarly to their namesakes in England (possibly excepting the dropped final R in the New England accent; I don't know if the West Midlands accent shares that feature). But I'll give him a break on "-ham", because that's a tricky one. The H is usually not pronounced in the UK, but many of those towns have US namesakes in which the H is pronounced (Birmingham being the best-known example, as it's the name of both the UK's third-largest city and Alabama's largest city), and there are places in the UK with names like West Ham. Then there is the question of what to do if an S or T precedes the H: do you combine them into the implied phoneme or not? There isn't a general rule: IINM you use the SH sound in Amersham but ignore the H in Topsham.

Personally, I couldn't bear to listen. It's tough enough to hear so many in the U.S. media mispronounce Iran as EYE-ran and Iraq as Eye-rack.

@Roadstergel #72

Let's not forget that alcohol is estrogenic, but then so is spearmint.

Around 10 years ago, I was told that because his views were so radical, Null was banned from EXPO West – the largest trade show for dietary supplements and similar products in the U.S., if not the world.

@ Denice Walter #67.

Yes, I very much enjoy the greater intelligence here whether informative or comedic. I think it is the main reason I visit.

It reminds me a lot of the years when I worked with pharmacists. I was on the evening shift so there was only a pharmacist and I for the entire (small) hospital. Since co-worker politics were largely nonexistent we were at liberty to have some interesting conversations when it was slow. And, when it was a hellish night, intelligent humor functioned as decompression.

I do a fair job of keeping up with the exchanges here. And, of course, there is always the ability to research on the internet for things over my head. The only person that is able to confound me on a consistent basis is Narad. About 20% of time I don't have the slightest idea what he talking/joking about. However, since he strikes me as someone who dabbles in being a Renaissance Man, I don't judge myself too harshly that his wide variety of esoteric knowledge leaves me in the dirt sometimes.

@ Eric:

He's from W. Virginia and Mike is from Kansas- not that their problems should reflect upon those places. They are both 'special cases' - of what, I'm not sure.

He's supposed to be a world traveller who's been all over the US and Europe. And seriously, if you study AGW and interview *hundreds* of experts would you still misprounce 'el Nino'?

What these blunders tell me is that he's incapable of learning, and as a solpicist, too overly sure of his own correctness to ever look into alternative solutions- THIS may explain his support for totally mis-guided positions concerning medicine, politics et al.

@ Lighthorse:

EYE rack and EYE ran are amongst the worst I've ever heard. Although mis-pronunciation of Italian names like Mantegna/ Castagna is right up there as well.

Null has also been banned from many public television fund drives in major cities like NY and LA ( and all Pacifica save NY). He remains on smaller PBS like Denver, Atlanta, Florida and elsewhere. It's a plot, he claims, by the Rockefellers because he 'exposed' the evils of sugar and they own companies that profit.

@ Not a Troll:

I'm glad that your enjoy our banter. Most people can recognise differences easily: even primary school students simplify their messages when told to speak to a younger child rather than one who is the same age.

BUT audiences who cherish the rampant idiocy engendered by wankers like these two may have problems seeing through the posturing, embellishment and lying. They believe them when they say how absolutely f@cking brilliant they are EACH and EVERY day. They can't tell they're being played and set up to buy a bill of goods

And Narad!
Narad can be especially cryptic but that's part of his charm. When you know him better you may understand some of his references. He is a fine fellow of diverse skills.

BUT he is not the baby that I misplaced in Victoria Station in 1983. I really thought he was for a while.

Doesn't surprise me; they're just crooks. He's a loon.

I’m reading the study you linked, but it seems the only measure of obesity is based on the Body Mass Index (BMI).
If that’s the case, the disparity in those two groups is nothing mysterious, as BMI is a very poor indicator of obesity.

Yeah, I have to say I wasn't terribly impressed with that study in general - sample sizes, metrics, pretty much everything.

If that’s the case, the disparity in those two groups is nothing mysterious, as BMI is a very poor indicator of obesity.

Squaring height in the formula strikes me a choosing mathematical simplicity over accuracy. If tall people did not tend to be more gracile than short people, the exponent should be 3. Even allowing for this a more reasonable value would be somewhere between 2 and 3 rather than 2. There would still be the problem of the very muscular and the unusually shaped.

Denice Walter,

I just saw an article about mis-pro… I mean,
*Anglicised * French names in the UK- the writer asks if they indeed still resent the Norman Conquest?

I do*. It still appears to be true that wealthier Brits with French-derived names can trace their good fortunes back to William the Bastard. The stereotypical English public schoolboy, tall, blond-haired, blue-eyes, no chin, may be related to Norman ('Norseman') Viking genes.

I find it interesting that, as I'm sure most people are aware, the Norman Conquest has left its mark on the English language, with, for example, the Anglo-Saxon word 'pig' being used for the live animal and the French-derived 'pork' for the meat, the English peasant more familiar with the former and vice versa with the Normal aristocrat. The same is true of cow/beef and sheep/mutton.

* Not really, I just resent privilege where there is still deprivation.

Should have added that I would have expected those with French-derived names to prefer to be descended from sophisticated French aristos rather than from Anglo-Saxon peasants (as I am).

@ Krebiozen:

Did you ever read 'Tess of the D'Urbervilles'? Where Darbyfield derives from D'Urberville? It involves commentary about nobility and a finale at Stone'enge !

At ant rate, we have a family tale that we are indeed a product of that very conquest - which I doubt- more likely we sold shoes to them along La Manche- "Hey Guillaume, we're distant cousins!" but at least the story led to interesting Frenchified Christian names ( Alexandre, Josephine, Denice etc) and lessons/ trips to France over the past 100 years.

My relatives ( their father is from Ireland) have a 'fitz' name which is supposedly derived from 'fils'. That may be more likely to be true.

I also doubt that I am related to John Walter of the Times or Bruno Walther or Jean-Paul Gaulthier. ( I'd like that last one) BUT then everyone is really somehow related aren't we because of mitochondrian Eve?

Denice Walter,

Did you ever read ‘Tess of the D’Urbervilles’? Where Darbyfield derives from D’Urberville? It involves commentary about nobility and a finale at Stone’enge !

:-) I never read it, but I did listen to a BBC radio adaptation when I was a kid that had quite an effect on me, especially the 'enge bit (in fact you just reminded me of what that radio play was).

At ant rate, we have a family tale that we are indeed a product of that very conquest – which I doubt- more likely we sold shoes to them along La Manche- “Hey Guillaume, we’re distant cousins!” but at least the story led to interesting Frenchified Christian names ( Alexandre, Josephine, Denice etc) and lessons/ trips to France over the past 100 years.

It's interesting how family mythology develops. I enjoy watching 'Who Do You Think You Are?' (international versions are available) which delves into a celebrity's family tree, and it always comes up with some interesting twists and often exposes a family myth.

My relatives ( their father is from Ireland) have a ‘fitz’ name which is supposedly derived from ‘fils’. That may be more likely to be true.

I never heard that before, though Gaelic and French are connected I think.

I also doubt that I am related to John Walter of the Times or Bruno Walther or Jean-Paul Gaulthier. ( I’d like that last one) BUT then everyone is really somehow related aren’t we because of mitochondrian Eve?

Oddly I was just reading about just that, thanks to a claim in a book that Chris recommended that the most recent common human ancestor (i.e. an individual whose descendants include every human alive) lived just a few thousand years ago. This seems impossible on the face of it (remote Brazilian tribes?), but is apparently true.

Eric Lund,

Worcester and Gloucester are prominent cities in Massachusetts, pronounced similarly to their namesakes in England (possibly excepting the dropped final R in the New England accent; I don’t know if the West Midlands accent shares that feature).

Interesting. I think the UK West Midland accent (think John Oliver or Lenny Henry) does drop the final 'r'. I suspect the stronger 'r' in some American English may derive from Scots and Irish English. I find it fascinating how a language develops in different areas like this.

and there are places in the UK with names like West Ham.

Which is where I live, though it hasn't been called West Ham since 1965 when it was swallowed up by the London Borough of Newham, though the football club remains. In UK English the trend is for 'h' to be dropped less and less while increasingly glottal stops are substituted for 't', even by supposedly well-spoken types like David Cameron. There are currently some interesting changes happening in the London Southern English accent, mainly from the influence of those of South Asian and Caribbean origin, with the already flat vowels being pronounced further towards the back of the mouth, called Multi-cultural London English (for those interested, here's the inimitable Aleister McGowan explaining and demonstrating it.

Kreb
- the Irish name is supposedly Norman= Fitzsomething. They were also related ( like me) to alcohol production ( different spirit) but their father was a poor relation.
- there is a BBC ( I think) film of "Tess' that is neither ancient nor terrible available for free on the internet ( about 4 hours?)
- for some reason whenever I try to imagine my distant ancestors trying to sell stuff along the Channel hundreds of years ago they either look like Eric Idle or Terry Jones.
- another finding is that all people with blue eyes may be descended from a single ( mutant) woman from what used to be Yugoslavia perhaps 7000 years ago.
Now that's interesting.

Hmm; a previous comment seems to have disappeared into the ether. Anyway:

I suspect the stronger ‘r’ in some American English may derive from Scots and Irish English. I find it fascinating how a language develops in different areas like this.

I recall reading that English accents round about the time settlers were setting sail for the "New World" were broadly rhotic, and that the "dropped r" phenomenon developed quite a bit later, only within the past couple hundred years. (Part of the spread had to do with people wanting to sound "posh," I think.) So (most of) the Americans are actually closer to the original English pronunciation. (Excluding the New England "Brahmin" accent, parts of the south, probably somewhere else I am forgetting.)

Incidentally, here's a neat example of what Shakespeare probably sounded like in the original pronunciation.

@ JP:

New Yawk

My relatives ( their father is from Ireland) have a ‘fitz’ name which is supposedly derived from ‘fils’. That may be more likely to be true.

Interesting. A Fitzpatrick I know claims that Fitz means "illegitimate son of".

@ Julian:

I've heard the same.

@roadstergal:
"I wonder where bisexuals lie. I don’t think we’re as infrequent as the masses make us out to be." We're not. A friend used to say that if all bisexual people in the world woke up with a green dot on the end of their noses, you would see endless green dots coming at you from every direction.

@everyone else: The British seem to take a certain pride in getting every foreign word wrong. Place names I've heard on BBC News Hour include "The Ukraine", "The Sudan", and "The Argentine", that last pronounced Argen-TYNE. I wonder if they are afraid we'll confuse The Ukraine with some other Ukraine, perhaps somewhere in Africa. Don't forget The Congo. Which Congo is THE Congo, the Republic of or the Democratic Republic of?
They also do it to American presumably Anglo-Saxon names. They think there is a city in Texas called "HOO-ston", and get it wrong even in very large budget movies. But if you spend any time in New York, the city is "YOU-ston" but the street with the same spelling is pronounced "HOW-ston." (Also, true New Yorkers know there is no Avenue of the Americas, it's just Sixth Avenue with a name applied by a foreign occupier - Nelson Rockefeller.) Also I don't know how Rapelyea St. in Brooklyn is pronounced in its home country, but we Brooklynites say it the right way: "rapple-eye". Just incidentally, my dad was a journeyman plumber in Brooklyn before World War 2, and told me that all the old plumbers installed "unirals".
The whole thing makes me wonder how well we do with the native American names of our cities and states. Is "hop-hog" really the right way to say Happauge? How about Hoboken, Idaho, Minnesota? I suspect the hyphens are there in Ho-Ho-Kus, NJ, to ensure proper pronounciation.

if all bisexual people in the world woke up with a green dot on the end of their noses, you would see endless green dots coming at you from every direction.

That reminds me of an evening I spent in Somerville, MA some years ago.

though Gaelic and French are connected I think

Both are Indo-European languages, so some overlap is to be expected. But the relationship isn't especially close--probably similar to English and Russian. Still, it would be closer than Latin or Greek to Sanskrit. The concept of an Indo-European language family came about when a British official, tasked with developing a legal code for India, noticed the similarities among Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit, despite the sparse contacts between India and the ancient Mediterranean world.

The British seem to take a certain pride in getting every foreign word wrong.

Yes, they are particularly bad. They even insist on pronouncing Beijing with a French J, when the English J is closer to how the Chinese pronounce it. I have noticed one prominent exception to that rule: Classical music aficionados are expected to pronounce the names of Central and East European composers correctly. Thus a few years ago, when Polish composer Hendryk Gorecki died, the BBC newsreader correctly pronounced his surname as Go-RETS-ki. But in any other context, that C would be subsumed in the K. Which is how the Americans I know whose names end with -cki pronounce it.

^ There is a web site (name escapes me right now) that I visit when I need to hear how to pronounce a word. It has different nationalities pronouncing the same word. Even disregarding accents, there are noticeable differences. If I know the origin of the word, I try to find that nationality's entry. If I can't find it, I end up even more confused.

Actually, scratch that. I almost always end up more confused.

In other Health Ranger news..

As the Dow and FTSE dropped precipitously today, Mikey reminds us that he predicted it!

BUT then, he and the other idiot predict market crashes nearly every day since 2008 so they're bound to be right now and then. Stopped clock and all that.

Now I suppose we'll hear their investment advice ( 'get out of the market!**/ 'buy gold'') with an emphasis on 'getting off the grid' and 'going back to the land' in order to 'live naturally'.

But be sure to stock up on supplements to preserve your health in hard times. And get video instruction about 'Survival'

** right , it's the best time to get out- at market lows

Old Rockin' Dabe,

@everyone else: The British seem to take a certain pride in getting every foreign word wrong. Place names I’ve heard on BBC News Hour include “The Ukraine”, “The Sudan”, and “The Argentine”, that last pronounced Argen-TYNE.

Haven't we been over this before?

The use of "The Ukraine" was common until 1991 when they adopted the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine. "Ukraine" means "borderlands" in Russian, so the definite article is no longer used. I haven't heard it called 'The Ukraine' in years.

Sudanese acquaintances of mine call "El-Sudan" making, I think, "The Sudan" correct (at least before the country split up), and I see Wikipedia refers to "the Sudan" in several places in its entry on the area, for example, " the war broke out in the western part of the Sudan known as Darfur".

Argentina is officially the Argentine Republic, so calling it The Argentine seems reasonable (though I have rarely heard it used in recent years), and even Argentinians pronounce it 'Argen-TYNE', so what's wrong with that?

They also do it to American presumably Anglo-Saxon names. They think there is a city in Texas called “HOO-ston”, and get it wrong even in very large budget movies.
But if you spend any time in New York, the city is “YOU-ston” but the street with the same spelling is pronounced “HOW-ston.”

Confusing. I'm surprised anyone gets that wrong with the well-known "Houston we have a problem" quote. New Orleans is another (Brits tend to say "OR-LEEENS"), and so is 'Michigan' (Brits tend to add a 't' before the 'ch').

Still, look at what some of us do to foreign place names like Paris, Moscow, Munchen, London, not to mention calling the Netherlands 'Dutch'....

The whole thing makes me wonder how well we do with the native American names of our cities and states. Is “hop-hog” really the right way to say Happauge? How about Hoboken, Idaho, Minnesota? I suspect the hyphens are there in Ho-Ho-Kus, NJ, to ensure proper pronounciation.

I tend to think there is no proper pronounciation really. Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, unless you are a BBC news reader I suppose.

Eric,

They even insist on pronouncing Beijing with a French J, when the English J is closer to how the Chinese pronounce it.

I have never noticed this, and again I would have thought I would cringe at the sound of it. I'll listen out for it.

Hilariously, some Latinas have asked me to serve as a mentor for their adventures in accent elimination as they think that I am perfection itself.
Well maybe I am.

@Mephistopheles O'Brien, would that evening in Somerville have been the 17th of March?

@krebiozen, thanks for overlooking my typo of my own handle...NOT!

...misspell...

Krebiozen,

And there is the "Pennsylvania Dutch"...

Old Rockin' Dave,

Bad night, huh?

Not a Troll, it's more of a medical issue. Sometimes I get a little brainlocked. Or maybe the Martians in the CIA are beaming down evil rays at me.
In the words of Ophelia, "Oh, what a noble mind is here o'erthrown!"
Got to go, Reynolds Wrap says my new hat is ready.

some Latinas have asked me to serve as a mentor for their adventures in accent elimination

"Please, Herr Doktor, teach us to sound like Mads Mikkelsen", asked absolutely no-one.

ORD,

@krebiozen, thanks for overlooking my typo of my own handle…NOT!

I didn't.. I copied and pasted it without noticing. It's funny how often someone corrects a typo (cursing themselves) that I hadn't even noticed until they pointed it out.

Krebiozen wrote:

Sudanese acquaintances of mine call “El-Sudan” making, I think, “The Sudan” correct (at least before the country split up), and I see Wikipedia refers to “the Sudan” in several places in its entry on the area, for example, ” the war broke out in the western part of the Sudan known as Darfur”.

The name's from the from the Arabic bilād as-sūdān "land of the blacks" (where as-, assimilated from al-, is the definite article) and used to refer to the entire savanna region south of the Sahara, stretching west all the way to the Atlantic. What's now Mali used to be known as the French Sudan, and what's now Sudan and South Sudan was the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.

A useful convention, especially in historical contexts, is to use the article for the historical and environmental region and drop it for the modern states. I tend to treat (the) Ukraine the same.

The Congo (both of them) and the Gambia get the article because they're named for the rivers. Tho this isn't a consistent rule - no-one ever calls the countries the Paraguay or the Uruguay (tho the official Spanish names do use the article: República del Paraguay and República Oriental del Uruguay respectively).

JP,
I meant to reply earlier...

I recall reading that English accents round about the time settlers were setting sail for the “New World” were broadly rhotic, and that the “dropped r” phenomenon developed quite a bit later, only within the past couple hundred years. (Part of the spread had to do with people wanting to sound “posh,” I think.)

That makes sense. The stereotypical "ooh-arr" UK West Country pirate accent, similar to Ben Crystal's version, is very similar to how some local families in East Anglia spoke when I was growing up. I wonder what happened to make those flattened vowels so popular in the UK - could it be something similar to the Castilian 'lisp' that supposedly aped a Spanish king (I know it's a myth)?

Incidentally, the idea that people wanted to sound 'posh' amuses me. Coming from an English middle class family with accent to match in an area where that wasn't greatly appreciated ("your mum talks like the Queen" - bash), I quickly learned to adopt a different accent depending on the context. It has made me a modestly talented mimic.

So (most of) the Americans are actually closer to the original English pronunciation. (Excluding the New England “Brahmin” accent, parts of the south, probably somewhere else I am forgetting.)

I find that amusing too. As a kid I used to wonder at what those crazy Americans had done with 'our' language. Now I know that it isn't 'our' language at all, and in fact 'we' mangled it far more than 'they' did. It's hard to notice, much less escape, one's cultural lenses and filters, but it is a worthy enterprise.

I recently read that the standard US spelling of various words was deliberately chosen (I forget by whom or when) to be different to British spelling to establish the US as a separate cultural entity*,which makes sense, so perhaps a different pronunciation and accent was also favored.
Is the New England "Brahmin" accent like <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENE9UawDafk"Loyd Grossman?

Incidentally, here’s a neat example of what Shakespeare probably sounded like in the original pronunciation.

A friend of mine does a great "what light through yonder window breaks" in a broad Midlands accent (Stratford-Upon-Avon is spitting distance from Birmingham), but Crystal's is doubtless more authentic. I'm also amused (easily, I know), by how Shakespeare, a master of popular culture, the soap-opera king of his day, was appropriated by the highbrow and somehow became 'posh'.

* Does it seem odd that I, a Brit, get a warm, almost patriotic feeling when I think of the US declaring independence from Britain?

Grrr. Loyd Grossman - I wasn't sure if non-UK people would know who he is.

Old Rockin' Dave,

I'm sorry to hear that; I am in a similar position.

I like your quote and may adopt it. I've been using references to "Flowers for Algernon" for some time but many don't know what I mean.

Regardless, I was never at the bottom or anywhere near the top in either of these analogies.

though Gaelic and French are connected I think

Both are Indo-European languages, so some overlap is to be expected. But the relationship isn’t especially close–probably similar to English and Russian.

Old Irish (the Goidelic ancestor, which retained a good amount of Proto–Indo-European) is far removed from French. I'm wondering whether Krebiozen was thinking of Breton, which is in the Brittanic half of the Insular Celtic languages.

(Thanks, Eric Hamp!)

Narad,

I’m wondering whether Krebiozen was thinking of Breton, which is in the Brittanic half of the Insular Celtic languages.

No, I think I remembered a much later connection; the Norman invasion of Ireland which led to some French influence, such as the use of 'fitz' which is indeed derived from 'fils' according to Wiki.

Krebiozen: "I find that amusing too. As a kid I used to wonder at what those crazy Americans had done with ‘our’ language. Now I know that it isn’t ‘our’ language at all, and in fact ‘we’ mangled it far more than ‘they’ did."

There is a river near New London, CT that is actually pronounced "Thames", with the definitely "th" and long "a", and not "Tems." Of course, there is also a Cairo, IL that is pronounced "care-o."

Sometimes when I counsel EFL/ESL students who think that English is difficult I recount - in my inimitable fashion- the language's history which explains exactly why it is like that. It grew via invasions, Church influence and conquests over millennia.
I have got excellent responses to this.

I give examples, like- there are many ways to say-
road, street, avenue, boulevard ( AS, G, F origins) or
house, hut, mansion, palace etc.
It shows differing sources as well as different emphases
Homely vs posh.

I also try to illustrate why particular groups of speakers ( such as Indians, Spanish speakers, Russians) have particular problems with pronunciation and usage.

Incidentally, the idea that people wanted to sound ‘posh’ amuses me. Coming from an English middle class family with accent to match in an area where that wasn’t greatly appreciated (“your mum talks like the Queen” – bash), I quickly learned to adopt a different accent depending on the context. It has made me a modestly talented mimic.

Yeah, I've got a touch of that myself, as does, for instance, my advisor. Sort of the other way around, though; an attempt not to broadcast one's humbler origins quite so loudly, I guess. (Although it never "takes" entirely for anyone, I think - I have heard the man pronounce the word "sauce," for example. You can take the boy out of Jersey, but you can't (completely) take Jersey out of the boy.) It does lend a certain facility with the pronunciation of foreign languages, such that we have both been taken for natives in Poland, Russia, etc.

I recently read that the standard US spelling of various words was deliberately chosen (I forget by whom or when) to be different to British spelling to establish the US as a separate cultural entity*,which makes sense, so perhaps a different pronunciation and accent was also favored.

It was Webster who set down the standard American orthography, I think. Luckily, as I've mentioned elsewhere, he declined, for the most part, to use the faddish and superfluous "our" and "re" false-French endings on a number of words.

I think the original development of "American" pronunciation was fairly random and organic, but I did read somewhere that the rhotic variety of English was eventually perceived as "more American" and less "foreign" by the 20th century or so.

Interestingly, the stereotypical New York accent is actually a pretty recent development. Walt Whitman, who was from Brooklyn, sounded like this.

Is the New England “Brahmin” accent like Loyd Grossman?

A little bit. Here's a small example. Come to think of it, the coastal New England accent is non-rhotic in general, although with different inflections among different areas and social classes.

I’m also amused (easily, I know), by how Shakespeare, a master of popular culture, the soap-opera king of his day, was appropriated by the highbrow and somehow became ‘posh’.

Yeah, it's pretty funny. Every nation had to find its National Poet during the Romantic era, I suppose.

Does it seem odd that I, a Brit, get a warm, almost patriotic feeling when I think of the US declaring independence from Britain?

Makes perfect sense to me. :)

I wonder if people have a soft spot for revolutions IN GENERAL ..
especially the French and the American, not the Russian and the Chinese so much.
It's idealistic, overcoming oppression, breaking the chains of control by the royals, set in the period of the Enlightenment.
It's the stuff of novels and large scale musical stage craft..
Something grand with which to identify

Now take the Thinking Moms' Revolution

Now take the Thinking Moms’ Revolution

, please.

"Now take the Thinking Moms’ Revolution"

It's none of those but "Mom's".

That was easy.

@JP: "Interestingly, the stereotypical New York accent is actually a pretty recent development. Walt Whitman, who was from Brooklyn, sounded like this."
Walt Whitman was born, raised, and spent the early part of his adulthood in Melville on Long Island, and spoke with the old Long Island accent. When I was a kid it could still be heard from some of the people who were there before the suburban boom of the 50s, and sounded like a softer New England accent, but with a hard stress on the "k" sound except at the ends of words (example: aXe-ent, if that orthography makes any sense to you.). In the early days of white settlement, eastern LI was part of New England. Fun fact: if I got off my ass and away from the laptop, I could easily walk to the old international border between New Amsterdam and New England.

JP,

Yeah, I’ve got a touch of that myself, as does, for instance, my advisor. Sort of the other way around, though; an attempt not to broadcast one’s humbler origins quite so loudly, I guess.

Kids (humans) can be so nasty. Why is being different such a big deal?

(Although it never “takes” entirely for anyone, I think – I have heard the man pronounce the word “sauce,” for example. You can take the boy out of Jersey, but you can’t (completely) take Jersey out of the boy.)

I believe there is a window of plasticity within which accents are more or less fixed (up to age 11 maybe?), and it takes quite an effort to change it after that. It comes out under stress, for sure.

It does lend a certain facility with the pronunciation of foreign languages, such that we have both been taken for natives in Poland, Russia, etc.

I have a problem in France in that my accent is greatly superior to my vocabulary. I end up saying "comment?" and "lentement" a lot.

It was Webster who set down the standard American orthography, I think. Luckily, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, he declined, for the most part, to use the faddish and superfluous “our” and “re” false-French endings on a number of words.

"Faddish and superfluous"? "Charming" is the word you are looking for methinks ;-)

I think the original development of “American” pronunciation was fairly random and organic, but I did read somewhere that the rhotic variety of English was eventually perceived as “more American” and less “foreign” by the 20th century or so.

I wonder why. Maybe it's just random. I know people exaggerate aspects of accents to emphasize membership of subcultures, and perhaps pronunciation/accents (is there a technical difference?) develop and spread like that.

Interestingly, the stereotypical New York accent is actually a pretty recent development. Walt Whitman, who was from Brooklyn, sounded like this.

Interesting. There is surely a Jewish influence on the modern New York accent. I noticed Whitman has a rhotic 'r' also the modern US pronunciation of 'enduring' (Brits tend to pronounce it 'end-your-ing', not 'end-door-ing' - maybe that's where the 'y' from 'Houston' went) - I wonder if that's something Brits lost or never had. Why the British spelling of 'centre' I wonder?

"Is the New England “Brahmin” accent like Loyd Grossman?"
A little bit. Here’s a small example. Come to think of it, the coastal New England accent is non-rhotic in general, although with different inflections among different areas and social classes.

I like that accent. Those gentlemen don't mangle their vowels anywhere near as badly as Grossman :-) I think my favorite US accent has to be Kentucky, as exemplified in the TV show 'Justified', though it's the flowery almost Shakespearean language that I really like. That reminds me, my late mother-in-law, an 'intellectual' Michigander, told me that she liked my English accent, and when I replied that I liked hers too, she explained that she didn't have one :-)

"I believe there is a window of plasticity within which accents are more or less fixed..."

Perhaps the developmental specialists can way in on this but I don't believe it based upon my family's experiences.

My brother easily adopted a North Carolina accent when he moved there in his mid-20's. When he have visited back in NY he would sound like the rest of us until he was tired and then he slipped back into the NC accent not the accent of his childhood.

On the other hand, my sister has created a sort of amalgam of a Maryland and a NY accent . Now that she is in Kentucky, I'm curious what inflections she'll pick up there to add to the mix.

I know if I were ever to speak with you, I would start to pick up your accent. Sometimes I have been called out on it as if I am trying to mock someone's accent but it is an entirely unconscious process until I find myself wondering why I am talking funny.

weigh not *way*

Not a Troll,
I wonder if the accents you describe are close enough to be within some limits of plasticity that remain after my hypothetical window closes. I have know a number of people whose original accent(s) surface(s) when they are tired or stressed or sometimes when talking about their childhood. There are some interesting anecdotes on the subject here.

Interestingly some people seem to have dual accents, Gillian Anderson, for example, does interviews in either an English or an American accent, depending on the location, presumably.

I know if I were ever to speak with you, I would start to pick up your accent. Sometimes I have been called out on it as if I am trying to mock someone’s accent but it is an entirely unconscious process until I find myself wondering why I am talking funny.

I do that too, entirely unconsciously; it can get a bit weird!

@Old Rockin' Dave:

You're right: Whitman was born in Long Island. I was wondering why I remembered him being from Brooklyn, so I looked it up; it turns out he was born in Long Island, but his family moved to Brooklyn when he was 4 years old. They did move back to Long Island at some point, I'm guessing when he was a teenager, but I'm not certain. In any case, he worked for both a Long Island and a Brooklyn newspaper as a young man.

I've noticed, anecdotally, that there does seem to be a cutoff age - for most people, at least - for being able to learn a second language without an accent. My immigrant friends who moved to the States as younger kids are perfectly bilingual (or trilingual) with no accent, but those who immigrated after about age 11 have at least a bit of a foreign accent.

It seems to be a little bit different with one's accent in one's native language. A friend of mine from Bristol lost quite a bit of his accent after living in the States for a couple decades - I heard a recording of him when he was younger, and the difference is noticeable. (It also comes out when he's tired or a little drunk.) I've picked up at least a little bit of a Michigan accent - enough for some relatives to have commented on it when I was back home visiting - but people out here - there's nobody in my department from out West - still think I have an accent. (But they don't, of course.) It is in fact strong enough for me to be misunderstood on occasion; I've heard that the way I pronounce the "a" in words like "bag" and "shaggy" is particularly distinctive.

I know if I were ever to speak with you, I would start to pick up your accent. Sometimes I have been called out on it as if I am trying to mock someone’s accent but it is an entirely unconscious process until I find myself wondering why I am talking funny.

I do that too, entirely unconsciously; it can get a bit weird!

Yeah, me too. I'm sort of a sponge, linguistically speaking, like a little kid. I suspect this is why I have a pretty easy time learning foreign languages.

About the only Southern drawl I can stand to listen to for any length of time is mid-Delta (think Shelby Foote). I was stationed in North Carolina for a time and the coastal Carolina accent is one of the ugliest in the country.

I have been accused by European acquaintances of talking through my nose along with my fellow Michiganders.

I believe there is a window of plasticity within which accents are more or less fixed (up to age 11 maybe?), and it takes quite an effort to change it after that. It comes out under stress, for sure.

I don't know about the fixed part but my (light and untraceable) accent does come out more when I'm angry/stressed*

*Oddly the stress only seems to come from being surrounded by some deep South accents from time to time.

I’ve noticed, anecdotally, that there does seem to be a cutoff age – for most people, at least – for being able to learn a second language without an accent.

There is research to back that up, although I don't have links handy (it isn't my field). A few people have the talent to learn languages after the age of 8 or so, but most don't. The biggest issue is the phonemes: there are hundreds of possibilities over all human languages, but most languages only use 20-30 of them (English uses more than most, a complicating factor for any foreigner learning the language). Young children are good enough mimics to pick the right phonemes, but most older children and adults have lost that skill.

It seems to be a little bit different with one’s accent in one’s native language.

There is some degree of plasticity. In grad school I knew a bloke from Newcastle-upon-Tyne (by way of Oxbridge) who had been in the US for many years. You could still hear hints of his UK background--an American might think his accent British. But nobody who had lived in the UK would think so, as his accent at the time I knew him was definitely heavily Americanized from his native Geordie (which I got to hear at his wedding).

OTOH, a different acquaintance of mine, from my undergraduate years, had lived most of his life in Michigan, except for a year or two in Philadelphia right around the time he learned to talk. And he kept that Philadelphia accent--most people who guessed his origin from his accent guessed Philadelphia. A more famous example would be Richard Feynman, who retained his Brooklyn accent more than 30 years after moving to California.

My great-grandmother was born in Yorkshire to a Devon father and a Welsh mother. She only spent a few years living in Yorkshire as the family moved to Cheshire for 3 years and back to Yorkshire before embarking for Australia when she was 8. She lived the rest of her life in Australia, but always sounded like she was from Yorkshire (although none of her siblings did).

Just got in...from an odd evening out Wish I had another drink.
a few things:
- 'centre' est francais - that's why!
- yes there is research about this as Eric says but I'm not about to look it up at this hour. Trust me.

HOWEVER some people have astonishing powers as mimics - they can copy accents or change their own as needed As you may know actors work with coaches along these lines and there is a lively internet business in 'accent elimination'
( NOT me I can assure you) as well. You need to have an 'ear' for the subtle differences.

I was fortunate enough to have father who was a trained speaker ( long story) who even was an announced on radio for a while and to have gone to a university that required speech as well as rhetoric.

-I'm thrilled that at least two people responded to my TMR joke set-up. I enjoy being straight man for bimler too.

In other news, Jake is not exactly pleased with the Spudd's latest which he thinks is about him. ( see Orac's twitter)

Oh and -btw- I know a few people from Ireland who NEVER lost their accents. They're motivated to stay Irish I think.

Hey: I thought this could be fun, for anyone who's interested. There's a script here which is used for procuring examples of English accents/dialects. I've uploaded a recording of myself reading it (in my native accent) here. If anybody else wants to do the same, I think it'd be neat to hear what the RIgulars sound like.

Crud. The script is here. The recording of me reading it is here.

"There is surely a Jewish influence on the modern New York accent."
What I mostly hear the Jewish influence is in the cadence of speech.
The classic Brooklynese is more of the Irish influence. People come from Greenpernt, they use the terlet, they live on Toid Avenue. The classic example is from a ballgame where the pitcher Waite Hoyt got hit by a line drive and a Brooklyn fan yelled out "Hert got hoit."

In my late teens and early adulthood, I used have people guessing I'm from Stockholm. Which is true to the extent I'm born there, but I was 18 months old when we moved away, and neither of my parents is from there*, so it's hard to imagine I picked up much accent there. The reason, near as I can guess, is that we next moved to rural Gotland, where local dialect was basically a different language from standard Swedish - I never learnt to understand it because natives would switch to their best approximation of standard Swedish to speak with us Mainlanders** - and I picked up my accent from the TV.

Nowadays, 20+ years in Linköping has taken its toll and people have been known to presume I've lived here all my life.

* My dad still speaks with a distinct Småland accent despite not having lived there since the '70s.

** A heritable condition. I forget how many generations you were supposed to've lived on the island to stop counting as one - three?

Haven’t we been over this before?

The use of “The Ukraine” was common until 1991 when they adopted the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine. “Ukraine” means “borderlands” in Russian, so the definite article is no longer used. I haven’t heard it called ‘The Ukraine’ in years. [more educational information snipped]

Well, if we went over this before, I was definitely absent from class that day. Thank you, Krebiozen, that was all stuff I didn't know!

New Orleans is another (Brits tend to say “OR-LEEENS”),

Uhhhhh... okay, I've listened to my fair share of music about New Orleans, by musicians whose New Orleans cred is impeccable, and if Dr. John and the Neville Brothers are okay with singing it as "OR-LEENS" in "Back to New Orleans", to say nothing of the legendary Professor Longhair in "Mardi Gras in New Orleans" - I'd take that as evidence that "OR-LEENS" is at the very least an acceptable variant pronunciation. In court.

They even insist on pronouncing Beijing with a French J, when the English J is closer to how the Chinese pronounce it.

I have never noticed this, and again I would have thought I would cringe at the sound of it. I’ll listen out for it.

At the time of the Beijing Olympics, most Americans including newspeople (I say "most" based on my completely unscientific survey of my own personal experience) were pronouncing it "Bay-zhing". There were a number of news stories noting that "Bay-jing" was actually closer to correct pronounciation, and attributed the widespread "Bay-zhing" to overcorrection: people looked at the name and said "Well, I'm used to all of these names from other countries where it LOOKS like 'Juh' but it's pronounced 'Zhuh', so I guess this is 'Bay-zhing.'"

Eric Lund @129:
I'm one of those people. I was 8 long long time ago and I speak perfect Florentine I learned in, well, Florence when I was 25 or so and I tend to absorb languages, pronunciation included. I speak Central Finnish, You're-from-Tornedalen Swedish (too much partying with Finns who thought it immensely funny to speak Swedish with me)... and I have no clue how this happens. I seem to be absorbing the languages just somehow.

people looked at the name and said “Well, I’m used to all of these names from other countries where it LOOKS like ‘Juh’ but it’s pronounced ‘Zhuh’

There aren't many languages that do that, but they happen to include French and Portuguese. So some of it is colonial influence. Italian handles J the same way of English. In Spanish it is pronounced either like the hard German CH (in the Castilian and Mexican dialects) or English H (Latin America outside Mexico). Germanic languages other than English, and Slavic languages written with Roman characters, have retained the original Latin pronunciation, which sounds like an English initial Y. (In Latin I and J were not considered distinct letters.) So the rationale of using the French J in Beijing is probably more along the lines of "everything sounds more sophisticated in French" combined with most Anglophones not knowing any better.

The Slavic languages have the French J sound, but in Polish it is rendered &Zdot;, and I believe Czech uses &Zcaron;. The Cyrillic alphabet has a character &ZHcy; for that sound, usually transliterated ZH--to get the English J sound, they use the combination &Dcy;&ZHcy; (DZH).

A heritable condition. I forget how many generations you were supposed to’ve lived on the island to stop counting as one – three?

You also see this phenomenon in rural parts of northern New England (i.e., Vermont outside of Burlington, New Hampshire north and west of Concord, and interior and downeast Maine). The standard explanation is, "Just because the cat has kittens in the oven doesn't mean you call them biscuits."

The Slavic languages have the French J sound, but in Polish it is rendered &Zdot;, and I believe Czech uses &Zcaron;. The Cyrillic alphabet has a character &ZHcy; for that sound, usually transliterated ZH–to get the English J sound, they use the combination &Dcy;&ZHcy; (DZH).

Or, just to see if I can get the characters to show up here: the "French j" sound is spelled with a ż when it's "harder," or a ź when it's "softer," although the hard variant can also be spelled "rz" and the soft variant is also produced by the combination "zi." (So the first syllable of Burzynski's name is actually pronounced like the first syllable of "bourgeois.")

The Czech version is this: ž.

The corresponding Russian letter is ж, and the transliteration of the English (or, more commonly, Georgian) sound signified with a "j" is indeed spelled дж, or dzh in Roman characters. Russians find it obnoxious how many English names start with that combination, which is unpleasant for them to attempt to pronounce, incidentally. Which is one reason why I often go by "Zhenya" (Женя) in Russia.

^Oh: the first paragraph above is meant to show the spelling in Polish. And it's that complicated because Polish.

JP,
Is there some reason that Polish and French have the same rhythm and cadence? When out in cosmopolitan east London, I often think people are speaking French but when I get close enough to distinguish individual words I realize it is Polish or, less commonly, vice versa.

@Krebiozen:

Pure coincidence, as far as I know. One coincidence is that Polish, like French, has nasal vowels; nasal vowels were in face a feature of the Proto-Slavic language, but Polish is the only language of the family to have preserved them. Additionally, Polish has a lot of "sh" and "zh" sounds, even more than other Slavic languages; Czechs say that Poles sound like they are whispering all the time. I actually don't know French, but where does the accent in the word typically fall? Polish has a very regular (with a few exceptions) penultimate stress.

^Actually, nasal vowels existed in what's called "Common Slavic" as well, whence they passed into Old Church Slavonic. (Although they were already passing out of use in many dialects by the time OCS was in broad usage; you can actually tell the date and location of various OCS texts by characteristic vowel mistakes pretty easily.)

Is there some reason that Polish and French have the same rhythm and cadence?

The default stress on the penultimate syllable, as JP mentioned for Polish, is shared with most if not all of the Romance languages. Many words in those languages have other stressed syllables (last or, less often, third from last), but the rules are regular, and in the case of Spanish and Portuguese, any exceptions are marked with accents.

The Slavic languages also have noun and adjective declensions akin to Latin. These endings even apply to surnames: if someone is named Dr. Ivanova, she will almost certainly be female (a male would be Dr. Ivanov). Most of that has disappeared from the Romance languages, but the latter still require adjectives to agree in gender and number with the nouns they modify. However, most Slavic languages don't have definite articles--thus "Ukraine" and "the Ukraine" are indistinguishable in Ukranian.

I don't have the skill to distinguish among the various Slavic languages when spoken--they all sound Russian to me. Part of that is because I am not routinely exposed to native speakers of those languages, but part is also because the Slavic languages diverged from their common ancestor more recently than even the Romance languages. Also, Spanish and to a lesser extent Portuguese came under heavy influence from Arabic during the period that Iberia was part of the Muslim world. Perhaps some of the Slavic languages (especially Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian) did as well, but I don't know enough to spot those influences, while the Arabic influences on Spanish are bloody obvious; e.g., many Spanish words beginning with "al" were borrowed by somebody who didn't know that "al" is the definite article in Arabic (whence algodón--cotton--as well as the palace known as the Alhambra, always referred to in English or Spanish with the corresponding superfluous definite article).

However, most Slavic languages don’t have definite articles–thus “Ukraine” and “the Ukraine” are indistinguishable in Ukranian.

Ah, but there is a similar linguistic distinction in Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish, although it doesn't have the same political significance in Polish. (Long story which I won't get into right at the moment.)

It has to do with the way you signify presence "in" a country. In English we pretty much always use "in." In Russian, one uses "in" for most countries, but "on" for (most) island nations, as well as, in a generic sense, peninsulas. (You say "on" Alaska or Kamchatka, for instance.) But it's also used for territories. The distinction, in Russian, is на Украние (na Ukraine, on the Ukraine) vs в Украине (v Ukraine, in Ukraine. Ukrainians, since independence, can get quite annoyed when Russians continue to say "na Ukraine." This is in fact not always a nationalistic gesture on the part of Russians, since when most of them were growing up, "na Ukraine" was simply considered grammatically correct. Old habits die hard, and all that. Of course, if they are insistent about it, it often is simply chauvinist. (Interestingly, Ukrainians of the older generation also often say "na Ukraine" when speaking in Russian. The same distinction exists in Ukrainian, in fact, but it's в Україні (v Ukraini) vs. на Україні (na Ukraini.)) In Ukrainian itself, though, people (again, especially of the older generation) often switch back and forth with not nearly as much political significance, which makes sense in a way.

^Okay, it's not such a terribly long story with Poland; Poland uses the "na" (on) form for Ukraine, the western part of which was at one point a Polish territory, but Polish uses the "na" form randomly for a lot of other countries which were never Polish territories, like "Czechia," Hungary, and many other countries. Because Polish. So it doesn't have the same connotations, linguistically/politically speaking. Plus Ukraine in the modern area has much warmer relations with Poland than with Russia, for pretty obvious reasons.

^ Modern era, that is. In any case, one of the reasons why Ukraine is quite insistent on the use of "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" in English is because the definite article in English has the same connotation of speaking of a territory - the Yukon, etc.

" moat Slavic languages don't have definite articles"

A tale which sounds like it might be true:
a former Mrs Trump, Ivanna, was not a native English speaker as she was from Eastern Europe ( not sure which country or former country) and thus, she had problems with English especially the use of articles; supposedly she originated the designation _ The Donald_ which lives on.

@Denice:

Possible, but it sounds apocryphal; I've never known native speakers of Slavic languages to attempt to use articles at all with personal names when speaking English. It does, however, occur in an affectionate context in German: one might ask where "der Hartmut" is, for instance.

^If only because one obviously doesn't use articles with names in English; and, in fact, any reason to leave out articles altogether is readily seized upon by Slavs speaking English, even when one ought to be using them. It might have been a Slavic-language-by-way-of-German thing, though, who knows.

Amusingly, when I was first learning German - my first foreign language, oddly enough, was Russian, except for some illiterate Spanish - I kept just leaving articles out, since my brain at the time seemed to just associate "new language" with "no articles." German speakers and teachers found this pretty hilarious.

Czechs say that Poles sound like they are whispering all the time.

They're probably plotting something. Time to invade them again, just in case.

Czechs say that Poles sound like they are whispering all the time.

They’re probably plotting something. Time to invade them again, just in case.

Ha!

Conversely, the Poles say that the Czechs sound like little kids. I also have several amusing anecdotes up my sleeve about attempts between Poles and Czechs to communicate in their respective languages with the assumption of some mutual intelligibility...

I have come across the Czech expression "Pít jako Dán", "to drink like a Dane". They are fine ones to talk.

I've heard that the French have a similar saying, "(to be) drunk like a Pole." It's actually sort of funny and unfair that the Poles have such a reputation for drunkenness among Western Europeans, when they in fact drink considerably less than the Czechs, and are in fact relatively speaking one of the more sober of the Slavic nations.

JP@149: But it's always "the United States", which is hardly a territory.

On reflection, the rule seems to be that you use the definite article with geographic descriptors of the form [adjective] [noun]. Thus the Yukon Territory or the Virgin Islands--but Nunavut and Guam, which have comparable political status, do not take definite articles. In this sense, if "Ukraine" really means "border lands", the definite article would fit the pattern. But that's probably overthinking it, since most English speakers don't know what Ukraine means.

HDB@155: The reputation of the Danes was known to the English of Shakespeare's day. There is a line in Hamlet, which is set in Denmark: "They clep us drunkards." Clep is an archaic word meaning "call" or "name".

In other news...

it's official...
Mikey Adams is a prophet!
He's been telling us that the markets will crash and they are
Like Gary Null and Gerald Celente because their dire warnings have come true. FINALLY**

Never mind that they've been saying so since 2008 and that the market has cycled a few times.
OH I wonder why it does that? That's very odd

AND Mike's article today centres upon a word derived from the French for 'slow"

** Now we'll hear these idiots hard sell their idees fixes about sustainability, going back to the land, starting communes, barter, selling herbs at farmer's markets etc.

I have found myself to have a little more ability to identify spoken languages than average. I had never thought about until recently.
It is not only pronunciation that gives the clues, but other things too. Those things include cadence, stress on particular words or sounds, the apparent emotional or other context, facial expression, and body language.
Identifying written language is more hit and miss, but I have good contextual visual memory, which is helps in picking out other alphabets.
I wonder, does any of this apply to anyone else here?

What do Mike Adams, Todd Starnes, and William Proxmire have in common? The letter A.

@ Old Rockin' Dave:

Possibly.
I have an especially interesting time when I'm riding public transportation and overhear people speaking different languages which I can understand to varying degrees.

I am reminded of those old dichotic listening studies concerning whether the second language is one you know or not.

I have studied several European languages to variable extents and bits and pieces of Arabic and Japanese. Plus I hear Indian languages frequently although I know little beyond reading menus written in the Latin alphabet.

Cadence is very important.

What do Mike Adams, Todd Starnes, and William Proxmire have in common? The letter A.

It’s not grown – it’s mined!

[Exit all commenters, pursued by a bear].

Yes, two days ago on Twitter I called it that there would be humor on Dr. G's blogs. And there is - across multiple threads/blogs! On a Monday even.

I also predicted that his trolling tweeters would not show up. Again true.

I think this predictive talent of mine deserves a paying gig on Mike Adams blog.

Note: Quotes above are from all over. I leave it to you to discover them.

[Exit all commenters, pursued by a bear].

Not "Exeunt"? Are there no pedants?

herr doktor bimler,

Well, since I had to look up two of the words in your questions, it's a good bet that I'm not the one able to answer them.

In this sense, if “Ukraine” really means “border lands”,

Sort of; it's actually from a phrase that means "at the border/edge," which turned into a single word (Ukraina) in Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish, is capitalized, and generally treated in a grammatical sense as a (country) name.

TBH, most Americans don't know what Ukraine is; half of the people I've talked to think it's part of Russia, for crying out loud. Which part of it used to be; another thing to keep in mind is that Ukraine has only ever been an independent nation since 1991. Before that, it was split between Russia and Poland, and then was the Ukrainian SSR during the Soviet period. So it used to be a territory, and it's not anymore. It's a nation, which has explicitly asked to be called Ukraine instead of "the Ukraine," which does certainly give the impression of being a territory or a region within, oh, say, Russia. I can't see any reason not to call it Ukraine, given that there is no "environmental region" that exists as separate from the nation and its borders. Which have become somewhat unstable as of late.

As regards "the United States," points of grammar, etc., W--pedia has a fairly decent rundown:

Countries and territories whose names derive from common nouns such as "kingdom", "republic" or even "coast" take the article: the United States, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union, the Czech Republic, the Ivory Coast.[6]

Countries and territories whose names derive from "island" or "land" however only take the definite article if they represent a plural noun: The Netherlands do, the Falkland Islands, the Faroe Islands and the Cayman Islands do, even the Philippines or the Comoros do, though the plural noun "Islands" is omitted there. The (singular) Greenland on the other hand doesn't take the definite article, neither does Christmas Island or Norfolk Island.

Certain countries and regions whose names derive from mountain ranges, rivers, deserts, etc. are sometimes used with an article even though in the singular (the Lebanon, the Sudan, the Yukon),[7] but this usage is declining, although The Gambia remains the recommended name of that country. Since the independence of Ukraine (formerly sometimes called the Ukraine), most style guides have advised dropping the article[8] (in some other languages there is a similar issue involving prepositions). Use of the Argentine for Argentina is now old-fashioned.

Some names include an article for historical reasons, such as The Bronx, or to reproduce the native name (The Hague).

Names beginning with a common noun followed by of take the article, as in the Isle of Wight or the Isle of Portland (compare Christmas Island). The same applies to names of institutions: Cambridge University, but the University of Cambridge.

if “Ukraine” really means “border lands”,

For that matter, so does "Denmark" (comparable to the Scottish Marches).

Jp wrote:

I can’t see any reason not to call it Ukraine, given that there is no “environmental region” that exists as separate from the nation and its borders.

If I'm speaking of "the Ukraine", I'm making an (possibly unsuccessful) effort to be clear I'm not speaking of the nation.

For that matter, so does “Denmark” (comparable to the Scottish Marches).

But with fewer bagpipes.

Denice Walter, reading your reply reminds me of how much exposure I have had to other languages, cultures, and accents, probably accounting for most of my faculty.
My immediate circle of family and family friends brought accents that included Brooklynese, Cockney, Swedish, Polish, Cypriot Greek, Sicilian, and Neapolitan.
From infancy I was exposed to Yiddish, and later heard and studied Hebrew (both Ashkenazi and Sephardi), Spanish, and French. I was able to leverage these to gain more knowledge not only of them, but of the other Romance languages. Romanian should be a snap for any French reader or speaker.
I shouldn't leave out later exposure to spoken Arabic, Tagalog, and Visayan, and to Irish and South Asian accents.
In the last half of my career as a PA, I worked in a hospital situated between two counties that at the time were two of the largest destinations for immigrants from everywhere and I once counted up over sixty countries that I had seen patients from. The available translators were too often family members with really poor English themselves. I picked up a few odds and ends of other languages that way.
Typical of me to fail to remember all that and only think of it later when it's been brought up.

Never mind that they’ve been saying so since 2008 and that the market has cycled a few times.

There is an old joke to the effect that economists have predicted nine of the last two recessions.

@ Eric Lund:

Actually Celente was a guest today on Null's Woo-topia but I had to leave so I only heard a little.

It all boils down to:
stocks,,bonds and banks are worthless
farm land and gold are GOLDEN opportunities!

However whenever gold prices dip, Celente says the governments have fixed prices and it REALLY should be valued at 3000 USD but that would show how badly off we REALLY are! It's a plot - just like vaccines!

@ Old Rockin' Dave:

I live in cosmopolitan-ville- and I don't mean the cocktail altho' that's next door-
as I mentioned previously sometimes on a train I overhear a few languages which I understand somewhat or a bit- and then there's English-
that's how psychologists studied attention:
you have to listen and 'shadow' ( repeat what you hear as you hear it) one channel whilst another channel plays. You have more problems as the second channel more closely approximates your own language or a language you understand. I feel like that all the time.

They also studied the cocktail party phenomenon.