gavin schmidt https://scienceblogs.com/ en Dr. Gavin Schmidt's Epic Response to Scott Adams https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/03/09/dr-gavin-schmidts-epic-response-to-scott-adams <span>Dr. Gavin Schmidt&#039;s Epic Response to Scott Adams</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Scott Adams is the creator of Dilbert, the once funny but now highly repetitive cartoon about a nerd who has a job in an office. </p> <p>Dr. Gavin Schmidt is high up in the top ten list of world class climate scientists. He is Director of the currently under siege GISS Unit of NASA, where much of the climate science done by that agency is carried out. If you read my blog, you've read his work, because you also read RealClimate, where GS writes about climate science in a manner designed to be understandable to the <em>intelligent</em>, <em>honest</em>ly interested, <em>thoughtful</em> individual.</p> <p>Adams has a history of going after core science concepts, often substituting scientific reality with his own. He has done so with climate science. </p> <p>And, he's done it again. In a recent blog post (of yesterday) Adams tries to "convince skeptics that climate change is a problem" </p> <p>This is a re-hash of earlier posts he's written, in which he does the old denial two step. Of course climate change is real, he says. I'm not a scientist, he says. I don't know jack about climate science in particular, he says. Then, he uses up piles of ink telling climate scientists how they've got all the science wrong.</p> <p>His objective, I assume, is to spread and nurture doubt about climate science and science in general. </p> <p>Dr Schmidt caught a tweet of Adams', pointing to his absurd blog post, and responded with a series of tweets addressing all the things. </p> <p>I wanted to preserve this excellent, well documented and richly illustrated TweetTextBook, and it occurred to me that you might want to see it too. So, here are the tweets. </p> <p>Feel free to add additional relevant tweets to the comments, if you like. I hope this doesn't break the Internet. </p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839817284461998080">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839817284461998080</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839817692563533824">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839817692563533824</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839818056696229890">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839818056696229890</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839818866763137024">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839818866763137024</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839819502867079168">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839819502867079168</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839819959815503872">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839819959815503872</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839821132568150016">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839821132568150016</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839821884195803136">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839821884195803136</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839822846452957185">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839822846452957185</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839823944056246276">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839823944056246276</a></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839825399693643777">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839825399693643777</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839825993288335360">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839825993288335360</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839826521745408000">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839826521745408000</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839827177952653316">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839827177952653316</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839827765566271488">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839827765566271488</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839828859184889856">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839828859184889856</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839829282037858304">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839829282037858304</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839829755142733824">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839829755142733824</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839830107493662721">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839830107493662721</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839830664664985600">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839830664664985600</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831134859116546">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831134859116546</a></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831243382534145">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831243382534145</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831750570303488">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839831750570303488</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839832859221364736">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839832859221364736</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839833681934036993">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839833681934036993</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839834474036723712">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839834474036723712</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835117254234114">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835117254234114</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835289543667712">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835289543667712</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835692813418496">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839835692813418496</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836233467629568">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836233467629568</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836530759860224">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836530759860224</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836979852378114">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839836979852378114</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839837809456345088">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839837809456345088</a></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839838385044865024">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839838385044865024</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839839521130807297">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839839521130807297</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840030164144128">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840030164144128</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840441071779842">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840441071779842</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840856005828608">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839840856005828608</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839842041387495424">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839842041387495424</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839842669606146048">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839842669606146048</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839843382973300738">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839843382973300738</a><br /><a href="https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839844432748949505">https://twitter.com/ClimateOfGavin/status/839844432748949505</a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Thu, 03/09/2017 - 06:07</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-and-weather" hreflang="en">Climate and Weather</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change-0" hreflang="en">Climate Change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change-graphics" hreflang="en">climate change graphics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/global-warming-1" hreflang="en">Global Warming</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/denialism" hreflang="en">Denialism</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gavin-schmidt" hreflang="en">gavin schmidt</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/global-warming" hreflang="en">global warming</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/scott-adams" hreflang="en">Scott Adams</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/war-science-0" hreflang="en">War on Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-and-weather" hreflang="en">Climate and Weather</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change-graphics" hreflang="en">climate change graphics</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489059048"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not just that warming has followed predictions, but that warming has followed the predictions made by Exxon-Mobil and the predictions of BP-Shell (as well as the predictions of climate scientists).</p> <p>Everyone is in agreement. What a consensus!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8zzToe2XylehqU7_6lZeQv3fr08qN4n-0PsSy9o_Dn4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brainstorms (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478662" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489059634"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The more nuanced quote from Box is</p> <blockquote><p>The fact that the polynomial is an<br /> approximation does not necessarily detract<br /> from its usefulness because all models are<br /> approximations. Essentially, all models are<br /> wrong, but some are useful. However, the<br /> approximate nature of the model must always<br /> be borne in mind.”<br /> From the book: Empirical Model-Building and Response Surfaces (1987, p 424), by Box<br /> and Draper.</p></blockquote> <p>This doesn't take away from Schmidt's points or Adams' idiocy. It does address the fake objections from climate deniers (including the bozos who repeatedly post here) that the climate models are wrong because they are simply approximations. Everyone knows that; the people who understand things knows that every model is an approximation, and that they are often useful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478662&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Xjg6rovWO3zRqLTLcZ0htwt5VMffEpRUFDmMRK6qFEw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478662">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478663" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489061975"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You remember how to get home because you have a model in your head that approximates the terrain between where you are and where you want to go..this model certainly doesn't contain all the variables and intricacies of the route but it gets you home.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478663&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ba4N4S9OrEVHXn4x3Vei_FlPXHV9Fzq1IjOLWVKbkHs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Mennie (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478663">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489063492"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Schmidt, he rocks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OFjF-B-5zlkFYimo6h0gbZNLfAuzZt3y7oLmE1miQ_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489070016"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Gavin Shreds</i><br /> (Good name for a band, btw.)</p> <p>@ ~ 3<br /> Indeed:<br /><b>On mismatches between models and observations</b><br /><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/09/on-mismatches-between-models-and-observations/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/09/on-mismatches-bet…</a></p> <p>“our earth is a globe<br /> whose surface we probe<br /> no map can replace her<br /> but just try to trace her”<br /> – Steve Waterman, The World of Maps</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4UPMP5vGcUMj2m48TYugv09ZFzS4FmJuLKL0jy6k2hg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489073046"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>System Of A TakeDown.</p> <blockquote><p>Pt. 7: the earth has warmed as predicted you pillock. 23/n</p></blockquote> <p>'Pillock' is a fine word, but IIRC, not really in the American English lexicon? I seem to recall getting the odd blank look. </p> <p>Or is it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tG3ld5CyYWWpvuV4L-8qXtV48VqinFjI8sG0761K_2o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489073116"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>** I know Gavin is a Brit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DWlbaPhu1RWZzBA4O-USOWh7puEW9WbuFpyMH7yhLMw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1478668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489073238"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah I'm not familiar with that word in US English, and it comes from earlier British English (for "penis")</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uA4fmall0LblJzNuqQgneTe7BmYZXMscblJT-BhPb1Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489079687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>and it comes from earlier British English (for “penis”)</p></blockquote> <p>That fits with the usage. Generally speaking, women call men pillocks and men call men pillocks, but men don't call women pillocks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TwyOT6BSFZHzzRpcG6nwHPptA6Wb8n8Xw4OpFZ_bL8c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 09 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489134960"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gavin:</p> <p>The most important point he makes is implied in point 1:</p> <p>ALL the models show an increase in temperature with increase in CO2 BECAUSE the models "Force" it to. None of the models INTRINSICALLY predict increase in temperature with increase in CO2 concentration; all ASSUME the behavior and Force it.</p> <p>We can create a model of a chemical reaction say 2H2 + O2 --&gt; 2H2O (including any transition reactions, etc.).</p> <p>The model will intrinsically predict an increase in temperature of the mixture. No one needs to ASSUME the temperature will go up and add energy to the mixture to realize the ASSUMPTION. This is because we UNDERSTAND this reaction and the model turns out to be predictive and authoritative.</p> <p>This is not true for climate models. They are very useful for "What if" scenarios, like "what if CO2 DID cause T to rise". And there may be some evidence that it does, but the model CANNOT verify that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AMz1IdgVxPbZKVtD7-eD0NqJ7mEa2CNkl6LzZTphSc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489141738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>None of the models INTRINSICALLY predict increase in temperature with increase in CO2 concentration; all ASSUME the behavior and Force it.</p></blockquote> <p>No. They don't assume the temperature rise. "Force" means thermal force, i.e. increased CO2 increases the watts/square metre sent to the ground. The models try to determine how much the temperature rises from that heating in order to bring outgoing watts/square metre up to the new incoming watts/square metre. Like turning up the flame on a stove - you increase the stove's thermal force. The only issue is how much your pot on the stove will warm up from this increased thermal force.</p> <p>There is absolutely no doubt that we have turned up the radiant heat coming down to the surface. The only issue is how much the temperature will increase in response.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rm927wGaqar1qVrUApKJtrkoscnui-s8QjUcpy45EkE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489144627"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" “Force” means thermal force, i.e. increased CO2 increases the watts/square metre sent to the ground."</p> <p>Understood. But why can the model not intrinsically calculate that forcing? In theory if you add the CO2, then radiative (and convective and conductive) exchanges shift, and heat becomes trapped, and ultimately the temperature will rise in the lower atmosphere.</p> <p>Instead a correlation is used which guarantees that outcome. That is my point. The model does not predict temperature rise, it enforces it. It may predict the amount of temperature rise in various places based on the initial assumed forcing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EE_WMxccrEjornNBbaycJtzyUIO2FNY2gbpqZU_I5wU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="John_QPublic (@John_QPublic)">John_QPublic (… (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489145368"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>None of the models INTRINSICALLY predict increase in temperature with increase in CO2 concentration; all ASSUME the behavior and Force it.</p></blockquote> <p>No, model sensitivity to dF (eg CO2 forcing increase) is not parameterised. It is an emergent property of the model physics. You have this entirely back to front.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7guMVd-7Pw13N_Pb1D7CcMnyKfk7kO4Rlw5s5_JclYI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489146462"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" “Force” means thermal force, i.e. increased CO2 increases the watts/square metre sent to the ground." (Chris O'Neil)</p> <p>Understood. But why can the model not intrinsically calculate that forcing? In theory if you add the CO2, then radiative (and convective and conductive) exchanges shift, and heat becomes trapped, and ultimately the temperature will rise in the lower atmosphere.</p> <p>Instead a correlation is used which guarantees that outcome. That is my point. The model does not predict temperature rise, it enforces it. It may predict the amount of temperature rise in various places based on the initial assumed forcing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pNSCSl96QzS9q4IKoQUvxEkeYmkVuFOqvy_bC1ihB8w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478714" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489218113"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JohnQPublic:<br /></p><blockquote>Understood. But why can the model not intrinsically calculate that forcing?</blockquote> <p>No you don't understand (and maybe never will). That forcing is calculated <strong>without</strong> using a climate model. The forcing is calculated from the measured radiation physics of CO2 and existing distribution of radiation in the atmosphere. It is defined as the instantaneous change in radiation leaving the atmosphere if the atmospheric CO2 was suddenly doubled.</p> <blockquote><p>In theory if you add the CO2, then radiative (and convective and conductive) exchanges shift</p></blockquote> <p>No you don't understand. The forcing is defined by the change in radiation that occurs <strong>before</strong> any feedback from changes in atmospheric movement or composition.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478714&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ABZApo72Rd1r7kPd115Vi_-bHGAlpc-LwBF0eejaPPY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478714">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1478674#comment-1478674" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489146652"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD- IF that is true, it increases my confidence in the models. My understanding is that there is a bypass in the fundamental physics for a number of reasons (complexity, computational power, etc.) and a relationship between CO2 concentration increase and some form of temperature/energy increase is enforced. I would then assume the model starts from that and calculates how the injected energy is redistributed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uoVh6xGicxi0YuLmLq3PX2FHLJ8gVUhloa_WbNxRjGY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489149162"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>From Wiki: (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wi">https://en.wikipedia.org/wi</a>...</p> <p>"Radiative forcing can be used to estimate a subsequent change in equilibrium surface temperature (ΔTs) arising from that forcing via the equation: dT=lambda dF" (translated images to equations)</p> <p>Then</p> <p>"For instance, the simplified first-order approximation expression for carbon dioxide is: "</p> <p>They are not modeling it. All they SHOULD need to do is allow the CO2 to increase, and the physics should take care of the rest, ultimately warming the surface.</p> <p>Instead, the increase the CO2 then use the simplified equation to warm the surface. Why skip all the intervening thermal interchange steps? This indicates that the modelers (if Wikipedia is correct, and ...) presume a correlation and enforce it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="keU_7UkpdHWhjPUkYSNccFL2aktEpoQQYXkO115Q6Bs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489149246"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Wikipedia link for comment #16 is:</p> <p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_forcing#Forcing_due_to_atmospheric_gas">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_forcing#Forcing_due_to_atmosphe…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cXxAlIxaLeGPl9BN6B4f3Uwq7WJO2Szkn1g2tet9nXs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489157765"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>presume a correlation and enforce it.</p></blockquote> <p>The radiative physics is not presumed. You can get <a href="https://geosci.uchicago.edu/~rtp1/papers/PhysTodayRT2011.pdf">from this</a> to the PETM hyperthermal event without a CGM in sight.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xgGrwTrPtb-ypdpdeNvVrz5-KuCAFVPz6mg8uiPRR_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478679" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489158011"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Indeed. The deniers have no idea what happens so presume what's going on and go from there. Finding out what is happening is beyond them, and changing their minds isn't their thing.</p> <p>They have an ideology and they force it onto everyone else.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478679&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="p_Q8MoC0KItH3ChbgiXIiAhi5x3bNUg01xQFc0DjGzA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478679">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478680" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489158250"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Instead, the increase the CO2 then use the simplified equation to warm the surface. "</p> <p>that's what svante arrhenius did with pen and paper. You can do it yourself with an SCM, and do it on your phone.</p> <p>The GCMs used are far more complicated, but they don't presume a CO2 sensitivity, they just run the simulation of what the radiative balance would be for given CO2 production routes.</p> <p>And they've all been pretty much on the money on the climatological trends.</p> <p>The 1980s IPCC estimated about 3.4C per doubling, and we're probably actually there now, depending on how quickly the climate responds to forcings (if could be late 2.x, probably 2.8+ if there's almost no lag, it could be late 3.x, maybe over 3.6 if the lags are 50 years or more).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478680&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="60kOJwNWBCHZ76rxAw92IRfBPRKM99cbWTItCiQJqPc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478680">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478681" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489158266"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, BBD. This looks mechanistically accurate (looking at it briefly). But this is a simplified model (i.e., three isothermal layers, etc.), not a full GCM. Why not incorporate this into GCMs? I am sure there are valid reasons (computational power, complexity to incorporate on a continuum model, etc.).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478681&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W8Qw19GxjbH4A1ydq7YGrmLX1Tt7F96wX-ohIHjM01E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478681">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478682" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489158896"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Why not incorporate this into GCMs? </p></blockquote> <p>Not sure what you mean. The atmospheric physics in GCMs is not simplistic. </p> <p>A reality check on model physics comes from palaeoclimate behaviour, which suggests that ECS to 2 x CO2 is about 3C. The emergent sensitivities of models converge on the same value.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478682&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JfB2oUEIRGg7wzBi7D4X395q-MaKftvABNIqC4w26l0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478682">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478683" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489160379"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD- Forget the simplistic comment. I was referring to teh fact that GCMs are continuum models and do not need to be broken into a small number of isothermal layers (rather the vertical discretization is probably hundreds or thousands of layers).</p> <p>I am only asking why do what I described in comment #16 when they could do something more like what is described in this paper (except using the full vertical discretization)?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478683&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C8W5iDVKMtFdEd7nCBUuLRTWOuAVoABpt53gOUdEZkg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478683">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478684" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489160491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow- at least Wikipedia indicates (see comment #16) that they use a simple correlation between CO2 concentration and surface temperature.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478684&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R_w-Hj9HUeDT68FDRfEfaYPzk4glJpXjovcn-OvnC0o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478684">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478685" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489160903"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD- sorry, no edit function here: "this paper" I referred to in comment #23 is the paper you linked "Infrared Radiation and Planetary Temperature".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478685&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="T7_kzsBKeQh75qwouvVIdpiK1Ntvzsfa4P84kR5w87Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478685">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478686" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489160982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It there is a problem with model physics, then why do they have emergent sensitivities which agree with palaeoclimate behaviour?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478686&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w8FUr6H2417I9nfol3JicbhX54GPK6YcdJB6lpIumXY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478686">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478687" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489162282"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD- that is not an answer. The answers vary greatly from model to model, all tend to go up, but by hugely varying amounts. </p> <p>Maybe the physics is incorporated as it should be. I do not know. I am trying to understand how the models are put together. The Wiki article seems to indicate they use very simplified expressions for forcing. Why not just set the radiation free and let the [pseudo] equilibrium condition dictate the final state?</p> <p>Here is the paper the Wiki article references. I am not sure this is the current approach or not: <a href="http://88.167.97.19/albums/files/TMTisFree/Documents/Climate/New_estimate_of_radiative_forcing_of_well_mixed_greenhouse_gases_myhre_grl98.pdf">http://88.167.97.19/albums/files/TMTisFree/Documents/Climate/New_estima…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478687&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CW9H61NQo3unO9vdRsGGu3Ned0PYxpWz7vu3CrjSXQw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478687">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478688" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489163518"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>BBD- that is not an answer. </p></blockquote> <p>Well spotted. It is a question. </p> <p>An answer would be good...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478688&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cH56r5ZLBtO__59M_AnGOcmGWFlADIWRZmXHdgmJCnc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478688">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478689" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489163949"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I was referring to teh fact that GCMs are continuum models"</p> <p>What on earth are you talking about here? They're still finite methods models, not analytical solutions. So clearly you can't mean what you appear to mean.</p> <p>"I am only asking why do what I described in comment #16"</p> <p>They don't. They say you CAN do it. But that doesn't mean any GCM does.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478689&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WD_xol2nPdSp7Anwq1yW8qrXgKa9XQZaWAchOMU5Q50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478689">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478690" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489164122"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Wow- at least Wikipedia indicates"</p> <p>No they don't. The WP article says you can, you personally, if you want to, do it that way, but it isn't describing how anyone actually does it.</p> <p>You can go for a walk by hopping on one leg and work out your balance as well as burn more calories.</p> <p>But that doesn't mean you HAVE gone walking out today hopping on one leg, even though you have just read someone saying you can do it.</p> <p>You can go and get your own GCM from GISS:</p> <p><a href="https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/">https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/</a></p> <p>And stop reading WP articles and deliberately getting yourself confused so you can pretend that GCMs are all badly done so you don't have to do anything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478690&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_gaLFVIK9q7fv-s2yKN7Q9b0SfKtWzqQRSXA4kDieJs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478690">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489164168"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"BBD- that is not an answer. "</p> <p>That was not an answer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I26pgJ6lowIuCtYvG-DDW6yvfs8xmgPYf1X9PPJtwB4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489164282"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Maybe the physics is incorporated as it should be. I do not know. "</p> <p>Then you should read the words of the WP as they were written, not as you'd like to interpret them.</p> <p>Or you could go and actually TRY looking at the models, any of them, to see what they do do, rather than what you'd like to read them having done.</p> <p>You know, actually take on board and act as if your claim "I do not know" were actually a valid claim as opposed to a dodge for being wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7WURCbs4-eBZhrYRiqOwZEyR9j3GlaZKkgsA9JrNdIA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489166521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>WOW- "You can go and get your own GCM from GISS:</p> <p><a href="https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/">https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/</a>"</p> <p>Thanks, this is the best reference I have found so far.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yt_WZ-8FzBqDa38Rp0cd7OXfxL9Ho4A03E00FhmUvAo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489166838"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD, "It there is a problem with model physics, then why do they have emergent sensitivities which agree with palaeoclimate behaviour?"</p> <p>You mean why does temperature go up (within the range of rates predicted)? That is what I am investigating.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1ZxehwZGqIJRXjiTbpRyl4JWXjSpYg5ePURB9Z6yVT4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489167026"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You mean why does temperature go up (within the range of rates predicted)? That is what I am investigating.</p></blockquote> <p>If there is a problem with model physics, then why do they have emergent sensitivities which agree with palaeoclimate behaviour?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0qIPfD0KS2l4MdyOqsTqaPXh1tMHj4NAIi3eATmrSyc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489171026"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Who said there was a problem with modern physics? I am looking at numerical schemes and the nature of specific forcing functions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478696&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4vR1EUUhxDl2q_x7Ya1dYj8XZX0AFgnt-PuAVtR7nHM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478696">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478697" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489171868"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're using words that clearly are meant to mean something to us, but they don't.</p> <p>Go look at the code. Function names will indicate what they're meant to do and most of the code will reference the papers that described the physics going on.</p> <p>Once you've learned some of what the words are meant to mean, use the correct ones or explain your personal lexicon when you introduce them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478697&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OAZP1xg8lzswa-CehPxz4YJ7pmtGeNiuHRGqp_QKXQo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478697">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478698" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489172977"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Numerical schemes journal refer to things like finite differences, finite volume, or spectral message. This is what I'm finding for some of these models. </p> <p>As to forcing function this is what I was alluding to in common number 16.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478698&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3-d8HDSRoWv_EN4evtShHb30zYy1iAu4-H6cHGXo9_E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478698">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478699" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489173186"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Who knows what you're alluding to, John. Until you know what you "allude" to and know what words you're supposed to use to "allude" to it, then stop "alluding" and start "saying", you're just blowing air.</p> <p>Throwing around "spectral message" is just adding more smoke you're trying to blow up people's asses.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478699&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fXvKr3R1aUp1sIR9Ongq57XVcN1aQzcrN1p6ealDOxk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478699">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478700" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489174511"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>FWIW, stepping back, see basics at RealClimate:</p> <p>- Do models have global warming built in? (Short answer: No.)<br /><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/11/faq-on-climate-models/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/11/faq-on-climate-mo…</a></p> <p>- What is a forcing then?<br /> - What do you mean when you say a model has “skill”?<br /><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/01/faq-on-climate-models-part-ii/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/01/faq-on-climate-mo…</a></p> <p>3. Model Spead<br /> CMIP5<br /><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2016/05/comparing-models-to-the-satellite-datasets/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2016/05/comparing-models-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478700&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ohq1YwMvd7-o2OSuzBZU8XZhfIOqENlPF9f7-rsMYbE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478700">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478701" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489175538"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow, he probably meant to say "spectral methods", as finite differences and finite volumes are two other classes of numerical methods, along with spectral methods. </p> <p>Quit giving the guy so much flack; numerical methods are a completely fundamental part to any computational method. They're the engine that you use to solve the time-evolution of a simulation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478701&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u0MD3Ll621ggMKq9k46DdhAj_7lPebeRneMvtFtsOQg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Windchaser (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478701">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478702" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489179695"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Finally, climate change impacts are happening now: Greenland's losing mass, heat waves are worse, rainfall more intense, Arctic ice is…"<br /> If "[Doomsday Global Warming] impacts are happening now", and "Greenland's losing mass", when will we be able to grow barley in Greenland again?<br /> "A sensational find at the bottom of an ancient rubbish heap in Greenland suggests that Vikings grew barley on the island 1,000 years ago.<br /> The Greenland climate was a bit warmer than it is today, and the southernmost tip of the great island was luscious and green and no doubt tempted Eric the Red and his followers."<br /><a href="http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland">http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478702&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4PvJ_2QCl8EuhaaeVBu11Z5zASFAKnr8f4Gtm3zGacY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark M (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478702">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478703" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489185120"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, Windchaser, I meant spectral methods, but was on a smartphone using dictation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478703&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wb7NaHXmC5cVpOt48Lqg4JMaOiY4IDNkWJygRmVEyCU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478703">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478704" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489187377"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is appearing that the models are not explicitly predisposed to warm. This is good news. I will continue reading. I found this from a climate skeptic (Dr. Robert G Brown), and even he confirms this (though critically on other points); though he feels they are architechted in in such a way that they will warm with CO2 increase, and possibly incorrectly:</p> <p>"Fine, so now we’re down to a single attractor, and it has to both be stable when nothing changes and change, linearly, when underlying driving parameters change. This requires linearizing all of the forcings and trivially coupling all of the feedbacks and then searching hard — as pointed out in the talk, very hard indeed! — for some forlorn and non-robust combination of the forcing parameters, some balance of CO2 forcing, aerosol anti-forcing, water vapor feedback, and luck that balances this teetering pen of a system on a metaphorical point and tracks a training set climate for at least some small but carefully selected reference period, naturally, the single period where the balance they discover actually works and one where the climate is actively warming. Since they know that CO2 is the cause, the parameter sets they search around are all centered on “CO2 is the cause” (fixed) plus tweaking the feedbacks until this sort of works.</p> <p>Now they crank up CO2, and because CO2 is the cause of more warming, they have successfully built a linearized, single attractor system that does not easily admit nonlinear jumps or appearances and disappearances of attractors so that the attractor itself must move monotonically to warmer when CO2 is increasing. They run the model and — gasp! — increasing CO2 makes the whole system warmer!"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478704&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NrMCr4wP1ObKqiEUhCEexnOb9Ca2NskleMLXhfzkC-Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478704">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478705" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489187416"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>link: </p> <p><strong>[Link to science denier site removed as per blog policy] </strong></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478705&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Hul5z8Rais0Y0kLFsznpZ0LawrlPucggIrOg2Ym6wws"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478705">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478706" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489187698"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, Obstreperous Applesauce, your links were helpful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478706&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W-J45td9vvUt2oksSzLVvbD7GnyUvG6BqFJVG5q8H5w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478706">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478707" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489199372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JohnQPublic just posted a link to Anthony Watt's website.<br /> Oh dear. And you were doing so well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478707&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XtC1ZZSE7wya08ogl9Ydu2OI0u3lvF07DaXQfVAfWTQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478707">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478708" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489206344"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JQP #36:</p> <blockquote><p>Who said there was a problem with modern physics? I am looking at numerical schemes and the nature of specific forcing functions.</p></blockquote> <p>?</p> <p>I wrote:</p> <p>If there is a problem with <b>model</b> physics, then why do they have emergent sensitivities which agree with palaeoclimate behaviour?</p> <p>You need to think more carefully about this validation of GCMs. You keep skipping over it, which suggests that it is an inconvenient truth. </p> <p>* * *</p> <p>No more links to denier sites, please. If you want to discuss science, use scientific sources as references.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478708&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JoLvJey02n0wsdREg5dGonMaKMcyhimwiO0gNqrNDS0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478708">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478709" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489208017"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Wow, he probably meant to say “spectral methods”"</p> <p>Maybe, but you have to work it out for him, don't you.</p> <p>"Quit giving the guy so much flack"</p> <p>No. Remember he said he'd studied this for 50 years. He should know what the hell he's talking about and not confuse words. Because if he doesn't like what you interpret what he says into something from a hominid with the claimed experience, he'll whine and whinge and moan about how you're dissing him.</p> <p>So, no. He's a grown up now, claims to be in his 70s, so he can damn well learn the words and act like an adult who is responsible for their own actions and can take criticism.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478709&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rep43x81al7U-xhVCwyN5rcPD3pvR2UYUlNeWmJjr3E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478709">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478710" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489208166"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"It is appearing that the models are not explicitly predisposed to warm."</p> <p>It is appearing that you are a denier, as suspected and explicitly predisposed to believe any crap from denier blogrolls and ignore any actual reality handed to you.</p> <p>Care to tell us which module in the GISS model code predisposes it to warming? You've been given it and "said" it was informative.</p> <p>Surely you didn't come to this conclusion DESPITE that evidence of an ACTUAL model whilst never having looked at it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478710&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VnopLlYUDB38bou73bYV8fAuB07r-LKiMyF_mub-des"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478710">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478711" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489208225"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"so that the attractor itself must move monotonically to warmer when CO2 is increasing"</p> <p>Bullshit bafflegab.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478711&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zx_t9qm9fX4RVXo7m3sJEY5U_uFBYu99XYJO37I_wVc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478711">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478712" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489213446"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JQP</p> <p>(Quoting Brown:)</p> <blockquote><p>They run the model and — gasp! — increasing CO2 makes the whole system warmer!”</p></blockquote> <p>Remember that this arises not from models but from basic physics. Brown - who is not a climate modeller and is confused - is simply ignoring the basics. You really should read <a href="https://geosci.uchicago.edu/~rtp1/papers/PhysTodayRT2011.pdf">the Pierrehumbert essay</a> I linked upthread properly. </p> <p>We *know* CO2 is an efficacious climate forcing. If it wasn't, then events like the PETM could never have happened.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478712&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ykiDVOs6CQUrWMP1UfoCkJtgT7wHbHxkz-3OZ5HRH-A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478712">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478713" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489217527"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Watts... I suspected as much. JPQ, he has his fingerprints all over you. You have been led astray.</p> <p>Let's step back a little further from even the basics and begin to ponder the world in terms of practical metaliteracy. It is admirable that you want to suss this out for yourself. But the people who are out there telling you that anybody can figure this all out from the comfort of their armchair with a little "common sense" are full of baloney.</p> <p>What we know about the climate comes from the combined efforts of thousands of bright, hardcore, rigorously educated, serious scientists in specialty fields working very hard for over a century. Climate science is like rocket science or brain surgery and arguably more difficult. Even if you are already a trained scientist in another field, trying to take a short cut by burrowing in from the top down will almost certainly leave you lost and confused.</p> <p>There is a consensus. Consensus matters:<br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/24/hostility-towards-a-scientific-consensus/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/24/hostility-towards-a-scient…</a></p> <p>And please, let's not call deniers 'skeptics'.<br /><a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnotology</a></p> <p>My suggestion would be to reconsider your approach.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478713&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xpUFimRj9j4O5YIH8AHY2gAhfcwMH1s3fCVeUjNPmUY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478713">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478715" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489228260"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mark M, growing barley on Greenland has already been done in recent years, but it is of very little use for the local economy. Too expensive and a largely uninterested product for the local community. That's the main problem for much of the local agriculture. That Vikings did it is related to their usual diet and inability to get any produce from elsewhere.</p> <p>Not that these facts will change your beliefs, but maybe a few others here will do some research and see that your reference to growing barley is a good example of a talking point based on ignorance. Stated with much confidence, just like Trump spwes his nonsense with confidence.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478715&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PK_ukbNNMchOQEf2oAh0ZBsbZJV5s-nZ4Wg0aqe4aZ4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478715">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478716" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489231377"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow:<br /></p><blockquote>Maybe, but you have to work it out for him, don’t you.</blockquote> <p>Well, given that he said finite differences and finite volumes, I figured it was pretty straightforward: "spectral message" was mispelled or dictated improperly. This is just a thing that happens, and it doesn't signify that a person doesn't know the concepts. It's usually just their phone being weird. </p> <p>It's just like "hey, what fits with finite differences and finite volumes, starts with 'spectral' and sounds like 'message'? Oh, right, spectral methods". </p> <p>I'm just saying, let's maybe tone down the combativeness, eh? Pretty please? </p> <p>JohnQ:<br /></p><blockquote>"Since they know that CO2 is the cause, the parameter sets they search around are all centered on “CO2 is the cause” (fixed) plus tweaking the feedbacks until this sort of works."</blockquote> <p>Sounds like he thinks these parameters are just tuned to fit the output, like this is more of a statistics-based model than a physics-based one. </p> <p>A lot of folks on 'skeptical' sites confuse these. E.g., comparing financial models with climate models. But the physics underlying radiative models aren't really tunable. The physics is what the physics is. And the results, showing warming, follows primarily from that physics.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478716&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VyzKRER_G3oiRQyOptutOrediXqQfblgn02ZQDjZmU0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Windchasers (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478716">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478717" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489231949"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And like I said, you had to interpret it for you.</p> <p>For someone who'd claimed to be interested in this for years, this is not a tenable mistake to make.</p> <p>And it's later turned out that he doesn't know or care what he;s talking about, he's another faker trying to get JAQing off and making asinine denier claims out on the internet under the pretense of being an interested party with no dog in the show. Which was a lie.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478717&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="87xjjkFgFYvtkGaPCftlc0BJhr4iWrWErPwBmWojMzo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478717">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478718" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489232140"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You know what's dumb about the "Oh, you tuned the values to get the sensitivity to the desired value"? Mad Christ Monckton has a "model" which "proves" climate ECS is about 1C per doubling CO2e. He does this by putting a maximum on feedback parameters, and the value he put in to his model was such as to make sure it had that value for climate sensitivity. It was an input to his model.</p> <p>Yet deniers think that's what the real climate scientists are doing. When its just what they have to resort to doing in their cluelessness.</p> <p>And project onto the professionals.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478718&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PaBAFoxqyiB7jKGk8z9VLFuY3FqmyJSLH1rBQvYAFTQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478718">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478719" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489233556"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Windchasers</p> <blockquote><p>Sounds like he thinks these parameters are just tuned to fit the output, like this is more of a statistics-based model than a physics-based one.</p> <p>A lot of folks on ‘skeptical’ sites confuse these. E.g., comparing financial models with climate models. But the physics underlying radiative models aren’t really tunable. The physics is what the physics is. And the results, showing warming, follows primarily from that physics.</p></blockquote> <p>That was my impression too, but also that JQP is greatly over-stating the importance of models to the scientific understanding of CC. It is, after all, a standard contrarian rhetoric. </p> <p>If he comes back, I will talk to him a bit more about this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478719&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RlqQj1OS1iQPz0w4SFTPIJysONCMuO_IEFiPztfCkEg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478719">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478720" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489233656"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Wow</p> <p>Where have you come across JQP before? The handle does ring a bell, but I can't place him.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478720&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zTU0GBoWMscuS2PQboZfR7yQ6cblrEeqBDDpcJObWiA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478720">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478721" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489235811"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's one as a denier on slashdot and appears in Graun comments sections BSing denier rubbish, but it's not like Joe Random User here had to be the same denier moron.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478721&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yXqrTZqG0BB9RNAN13M7xYahLCQutZ2Xlh56BzMMEUU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478721">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478722" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489239472"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Marco, March 11, 2017.<br /> Do you have a link to support your 'fact'?<br /> Remember, Vikings grew it for centuries, not one season.<br /> Thanks in advance.<br /> As for my 'beliefs', what a bizarre comment.<br /> I gave you a scientific link, It is not about 'belief'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478722&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eRUsIDMSPOTicun20PBq7vh9ar5Ol16EFXhcUrEZEqM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark M (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478722">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478723" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489243049"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>As for my ‘beliefs’, what a bizarre comment.<br /> I gave you a scientific link, It is not about ‘belief’.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh yes it is. Stop pretending you aren't a contrarian. Nobody's fooled :-)</p> <p>As for Viking agricultural myths:</p> <blockquote><p>Over the last decade, however, new excavations across the North Atlantic have forced archaeologists to revise some of these long-held views. An international research collective called the North Atlantic Biocultural Organisation (NABO) has accumulated precise new data on ancient settlement patterns, diet, and landscape. The findings suggest that the Greenland Norse focused less on livestock and more on trade, especially in walrus ivory, and that for food they relied more on the sea than on their pastures. There's no doubt that climate stressed the colony, but the emerging narrative is not of an agricultural society short on food, but a hunting society short on labor and susceptible to catastrophes at sea and social unrest.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/11/why-did-greenland-s-vikings-disappear">Source</a></p> <p>Perhaps the role of marginal cereal cultivation is being over-stated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478723&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ipIUQ5r4-id1Fy9nMtR_vtd1GREMRsUWntcEfS6MK3Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478723">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478724" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489243194"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Do you have any support for your fact? Because every link I have says that Greenland wasn't lush, it was a hellhole and lasted only a few years, needing support all the time because it couldn't support itself.</p> <p>You gave a blog link, not a scientific one. They're just geeks who like nordic culture, being northerners themselves.</p> <p>Your claim is similar to the whinge about how Romans used to grow grapes in the UK in the past, but </p> <p>a) it was a religious requirement<br /> b) there was no other way to clean the water for drinking<br /> c) there were no threshers wine stores in those days<br /> d) it was REALLY shitty wine, but because of a, b and c, there was no competition<br /> e) it's being made COMMERCIALLY further north than it ever was in the roman times</p> <p>So, yeah, I'd like to see the papers sourced (if indeed any were) for their claim it was warmer in Greenland (note, they don't call it lush, YOU added that non-fact opinion in there).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478724&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="69ua0XBQOCXfx8yQrqXAHKGHEt0EFb_rX3B7HY1kwr0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478724">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478725" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489244822"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mark M, the link does not show they grew barley for centuries, nor does the actual scientific paper (challenge to you: find the paper). You literally made that up. There is some evidence barley was grown most likely solely for personal use. Some Greenland farmers have done the same in the last 10+ years (only some media reprts on that). But what's the use? Barley simply isn't an important produce anymore. Potatoes is much more important.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478725&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="29cIvy9IxJWKWfz-aFWW1-JVEulzXPoAnMLxmkiCsr4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478725">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478726" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489246133"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There is some evidence barley was grown most likely solely for personal use.</p></blockquote> <p>To make beer :-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478726&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PtG0eZKeb62Odc3Rm1_pb1e0IvuBdAjsIK9_KxsnULY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478726">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478727" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489248586"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ok. Looks like I stirred the sh*t a bit. Thanks Windchaser for maintaining a level head.</p> <p>I linked Dr. Brown, because I came across it in a Google search, and it verified (as I said even from a skeptic) that the model are NOT preloaded to warm. I am not necessarily taking his argument about weather being chaotic and and thus not being amenable to over-simplification and linearization as gospel, but it is an interesting point. And climate science is based on physics, by the way.</p> <p>For the second time, I dictated spectral methods and missed that it interpreted it as "spectral messages" when I did a quick review as I was stepping out of the car and sending.</p> <p>I will be frank and disclose that I am coming from the skeptic side (and I was not hiding that previsously and do not find it an untenable position), but actually am very open minded. I certainly hope that ANY of you that claim to be climate scientists are also skeptics. I understand radiation physics from the perspective of thermal modeling, experiment, and being involved in scientific thermal imaging (and understand the role of gases such as water and CO2 in the atmosphere in radiative absorption). I have knowledge of chemistry and physics, and have worked as an engineer for many years, and spent many of those years involved in structural and thermal modeling as well as CFD plus some hybrids (i.e., multi-physics). For the record this includes finite difference methods, finite volume methods, and finite element methods.</p> <p>I am interested in the CGMs because I find them fascinating; I am curious if they stand up to the task of deciding world policy on (even coupled with paleo-climatological observations)- this might be my skeptics position; I am generally curious about the numerical techniques and physics in them. As computer power increases, and it still is increasing, we might be able one day to run an unsteady fully-3D atmospheric model (maybe a while before we can do that for 100 years, but maybe long enough to gain some insight), but I suspect we are far from that computer power yet. I do not feel the modelers are intending to commit fraud, and probably have put together some very interesting and powerful models that are at least very capable of performing useful and interesting studies (there may be some exceptions such as climategate, but I have not studied that in any depth).</p> <p>This is not a religion. I already have one of those, and do not need another. Science should be less heated; though politics can get pretty heated (as can religion).</p> <p>I understand that many of you truly believe that world is on a collision course, and I do not doubt there is a general sincerity to it. I actually see Donald trump's presidency as an opportunity for real dialog. The "Believe what we say or else" attitude has no choice but to back down, and everyone will perhaps have a chance to discuss more frankly and calmly. If the current AGW proponents are correct, it could be a big problem, but it is as it is.</p> <p>Some of The questions are:<br /> 1. Is the earth/atmosphere ocean heating? I think there is evidence for this.<br /> 2. Is man responsible for it, and by how much? I think you feel you have the answer for that. (yes and 100%).<br /> 3. If 2 is true, what would the consequences be for mankind? I think this is even more open than 2.<br /> 4. If 2 is true, what can we and/or should we do about it? This is political question. This also depends on the certainty of 2 and even 1.<br /> 5. If 2 is true is it good, bad, or something else? This depends on 3 and the certainty of 3,2,1.</p> <p>I do not expect that I alone will be able to answer all those questions for myself. That is why for now I am mainly looking into the models. This is an area I have some comfort and interest. I am willing to read about the other areas. Unfortunately I have a day job and a family, so like some of you I can only spend so much time doing any of this.</p> <p>I intend to maintain an open mind going forward. Peace.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478727&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D40SWD0qXWzzjmz-A96A6wknMEo7sjDcAm6dql54H18"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478727">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478728" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489250143"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>That is why for now I am mainly looking into the models. This is an area I have some comfort and interest.</p></blockquote> <p>A standard not-really-sceptic meme is that climate models are the source of scientific understanding of climate change. This is not true.</p> <p>You will be familiar with James Hansen, who, unlike Dr Brown, does have relevant domain expertise. What does Hansen think about models? </p> <p>Here's an excerpt from an interview in which Hansen <a href="http://www.treehugger.com/treehugger-radio/nasas-james-hansen-on-climate-change-and-intergenerational-justice-podcast.html">says treat the models with scepticism</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>TH: A lot of these metrics that we develop come from computer models. How should people treat the kind of info that comes from computer climate models?</p> <p><b>Hansen:</b> I think you would have to treat it with a great deal of skepticism. Because if computer models were in fact the principal basis for our concern, then you have to admit that there are still substantial uncertainties as to whether we have all the physics in there, and how accurate we have it. But, in fact, that's not the principal basis for our concern. It's the Earth's history-how the Earth responded in the past to changes in boundary conditions, such as atmospheric composition. Climate models are helpful in interpreting that data, but they're not the primary source of our understanding.</p> <p>TH: Do you think that gets misinterpreted in the media?</p> <p><b>Hansen:</b> Oh, yeah, that's intentional. The contrarians, the deniers who prefer to continue business as usual, easily recognize that the computer models are our weak point. So they jump all over them and they try to make the people, the public, believe that that's the source of our knowledge. But, in fact, it's supplementary. It's not the basic source of knowledge. We know, for example, from looking at the Earth's history, that the last time the planet was two degrees Celsius warmer, sea level was 25 meters higher.</p> <p>And we have a lot of different examples in the Earth's history of how climate has changed as the atmospheric composition has changed. So it's misleading to claim that the climate models are the primary basis of understanding.</p></blockquote> <p>It's very important to recognise the difference between the distorted views espoused by contrarians and the actual state of scientific knowledge about climate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478728&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MX0BDL8te2JbR82LC9NhU4R-nXbNpu7a4qLD_kUJyzI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478728">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478729" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489251920"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fair enough, but how do you project out 100 years for policy decisions without models? I get the impression that the models are very critical to organizations such as the IPCC.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478729&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HPnjk75SlLO9hHsDEnB7_LPab-LsxSDMGhhE6FHiW2k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478729">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478730" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489266296"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, right. Cool story bro. Who did you think would buy that?</p> <p>At the very best for you, you've got a problem that you've made up yourself. Most likely you're just BSing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478730&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9-tvdmvJTEGp06D3JRs7GedN_VlcgEPyGoZfnNXtkBA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478730">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478731" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489275898"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow- clearly a skeptic!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478731&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fpS20Dt_peSiDp23kRnq7L3rwXga2DJJtjD1XQ0vZec"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JohnQPublic (not verified)</span> on 11 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478731">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478732" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489301376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes, as are just about all scientists. We're skeptics. Deniers, however, aren't, they believe any old crap as long as it's Anything But Carbon. And they'll pretend "honest queries" so as to resurrect the old zombie denier arguments before, when it fails to get anyone unable to answer them, turning into full denier mode.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478732&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KKmKk-wO6669BSKBiMqDLo4jVeDI6lgWBSCZT_Z_5BQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478732">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478733" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489306552"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Fair enough, but how do you project out 100 years for policy decisions without models? I get the impression that the models are very critical to organizations such as the IPCC.</p></blockquote> <p>Because model sensitivity is close to palaeo-derived sensitivity there is fairly high confidence that the models will have predictive skill on the global scale and the centennial scale. </p> <p>The uncertainty is more about regional effects on shorter timescales and it is not a comforting kind of uncertainty. </p> <p>So to answer your question, the IPCC (and others) are right to place fairly high confidence in 100-year projections of GAT response to various emissions pathways. </p> <p>The basis for a policy response to scientific projections of warming is sound and indeed only fake sceptics actively seek to cast doubt on it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478733&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ns8F450qR8EKrEyu4FLLjveCjjIc92pcHv1XBBvtWnw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478733">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478734" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489307551"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Fair enough, but how do you project out 100 years for policy decisions without models? "</p> <p>By using reality to guide the expected outcomes of your actions. You know, like every single thing you ever plan doing. "I need to eat later this week, so I shall go shopping and get some food". You plan for the future using what you know of reality, not by running a computer model of your biochemistry.</p> <p>Or do you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478734&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DBUC99QocumnUxJTK90R-4cuq2-QCZxtrmpZCHLqICY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478734">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478735" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489310209"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I actually see Donald trump’s presidency as an opportunity for real dialog.</p></blockquote> <p>Seriously? Are you always this delusional?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478735&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N8eamNfu77eu2Ady7gHVSk0tSIXKzrF5BHUGfewIE5Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478735">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478736" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489311077"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It gets better...</p> <blockquote><p>I actually see Donald trump’s presidency as an opportunity for real dialog. The “Believe what we say or else” attitude has no choice but to back down, and everyone will perhaps have a chance to discuss more frankly and calmly.</p></blockquote> <p>Somehow JQP has mistaken the authoritarian, vindictive bellowing from the White House for something other than "believe what we say or else". Quite a feat of misapprehension, that. </p> <p>Amazingly, he goes even further and ascribes the authoritarian, threatening rhetoric to <i>scientists</i> who are simply explaining the <i>scientific evidence</i> to decision makers. This is alt-reality, monkeys-out-of-unicorns'-bottoms stuff indeed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478736&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="75cvxY-fsxf_npUlEETJtdD7ALRdamVElsCWk0BuFjU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478736">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478737" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489324382"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JQP @~ 68 (Engineer... Quell surprise, just enough knowledge to be dangerous and puffed.)</p> <blockquote><p>I understand that many of you truly believe that world is on a collision course, and I do not doubt there is a general sincerity to it. I actually see Donald trump’s presidency as an opportunity for real dialog. The “Believe what we say or else” attitude has no choice but to back down, and everyone will perhaps have a chance to discuss more frankly and calmly. If the current AGW proponents are correct, it could be a big problem, but it is as it is.</p></blockquote> <p>Donald Trump is a dangerous mess with no fix in sight. If you can't see that... Yikes!</p> <p>"The 'Believe what we say or else' attitude..."</p> <p>This is a childish mischaracterization. If you've ever heard scientists try to debate creationists, you get pretty quickly how and why they get irked. It's the same situation with denialists of just about any stripe.</p> <p>Furthermore it's just blind petulance from people who can't accept a basic principle of learning. Until you are at the point where you yourself have actual expertice in a complex subject like this, you necessarily have to rely on the expertice of your professional peer reviewed, well published teacher in the relevant field. Get that? You have to trust that they know what they're talking about. It's amazing how many deniers think that they are instant Galileos because they read a blog that tells them so.</p> <p>Being an overweening amateur with Dunning-Kruger syndrome, will simply not help you to advance. Nor will it earn you much respect among the professionals. Exactly how much this applies to you would be hard for me to say, but it certainly applies to the base of the community you embrace.</p> <p>I do not expect that I alone will be able to answer all those questions for myself. That is why for now I am mainly looking into the models.</p> <p>Good. But I suggest that you start at the beginning with introductory <b>climate science textbooks and move on from there. If you're as smart as you think you are, you'll be into the good stuff in a relatively short time. Or is it that you think you're just too cool for school?</b></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478737&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mq_zC65bogPWSAewLwa6Anto-ORwxwANJ80pTUJPFx4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478737">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489324779"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@~78 above.</p> <p>Damn. Oh, for a preview.</p> <p>Forgot the quotes in the penultimate paragraph. </p> <p>Didn't close the bold for <b>climate science</b></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qAf0_yBDhNIZPEz1A2c6ROFPXwbrV3zSBptH00WGCjU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489339508"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;No, model sensitivity to dF (eg CO2 forcing increase) is not parameterised. It is an emergent property of the model physics. </p> <p>Then how is RealClimate able to use a climate model tuned to yield a 3C response? See their post about Keystone XL.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IoRG84BZskqTAaEqRouLD9AmOwQqJmiq9IJpIoyzV1A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489339580"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My suspicion is that if Scott Adams said he believed the scientists on global warming(which he actually does but you know what I mean), then you would be calling his work funny.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PemZodovkLzYajaGnN01nWnT0gebJW0mv2piKZ63BSc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489340213"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Then how is RealClimate able to use a climate model tuned to yield a 3C response?"</p> <p>They don't.</p> <p>"My suspicion is that if Scott Adams said he believed the scientists on global warming"</p> <p>He doesn't, so you have no data to make any claim on.</p> <p>You do have data indicating you are incorrect, since Greg's opinion appears to be it was good and funny but has rode it out too long and has to retread the same old stuff. Much like the Simpsons from about S9/S10.</p> <p>My suspicion is that if you were able to find out this alternative reality showed you were wrong you'd merely go on and bitch about something else, never once changing your opinion, merely finding the next morsel of bullshit to make you feel like you were vindicated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HR7DcjrMiqp3vMKRkvT7eVjweJqui98MWWo3CbpKJyw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1478742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489341699"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On models and related questions vis-a-vis CO2 and other greenhouse gas effects on the environment:</p> <p>The point of much of this research is to find out how a change in CO2 concentration changes the heat balance of the planet. It is not the case that the relationship between CO2 and, say, surface warming is a presumed correlation. The "correlation" (relationship) between the two is the question being asked, not a presumption in the model, most of the time. </p> <p>The baseline is simple physics. A simple nitrogen atmosphere (zero other gasses of any kind) on a planet with no ocean (which you would need to have no gasses!) would involve a very rapid and very knowable, easily calculated, relationship with the sun, and adding a fixed amount of CO2 to that atmosphere would produce an easily calculated number. On such a planet, for example, it would be very cold at "pre-industrial" levels, and doubling the amount of CO2 would probably raise the average temp at two meters by about 1.2C. However, if you add water vapor, some other gasses, and thus clouds, and oceans, etc. and run a pile of highly advanced models using everything we know, you get two interesting results.</p> <p>1) The models run up to, say, 1980, predicting the future, give a range of future temperatures that the actual temperatures that happened subsequently fall nicely within. A few years ago, the actual temperature for the coldest running interpreted data sets neared the allowable lower margin (but did not pass it) and now we are nearing the higher end of the allowable range (having the effect of STFU the deniers who were so titilated by the earlier trend). In other words, the first result is that the models, not using a presumed correlation came up with a result that predicted 40 years of time pretty accurately; and </p> <p>2) Looking over the longer term, where C02 makes it all the way to 500ppm, and then we look even farther ahead to see all the effects, these models give estimates for future warming that range from about 2 to perhaps 7 degrees C. The lower end (around 2) are impossible because the empirical observations have already obviated them. The higher numbers are low probability but most models allow it. The best guess is close to 3.5. </p> <p>A great resource allowing both a good explanation of various models as well as a comparison of the "these models don't work" denial machine results vs. actual scientists results is found in the book I review here:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2015/03/11/climatology-versus-pseudoscience-exposing-the-failed-predictions-of-global-warming-skeptics/">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2015/03/11/climatology-versus-pseudos…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C3gAIoTfwRFXqm70igYMrLYk42UQOjugzIi4VtcdOU0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489342885"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN</p> <blockquote><p>Then how is RealClimate able to use a climate model tuned to yield a 3C response? See their post about Keystone XL.</p></blockquote> <p>Link please.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0Mh43tVxhwthgzosqPcC8h5YHVt-0xnFI3riM6LuTT0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489344434"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"See their post about Keystone XL."</p> <p>Lame, even for you. If you actually have one in mind, that you've read, state which it is. They have numerous posts with discussions and comments about Keystone XL. </p> <p>To which are you referring?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kvbOhkJ2EmdwBWh7j8cVQ95rKrgbyIFFc76jZeC8wnM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489356149"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@BBD, #64: I dont pretend.<br /> I prefer 'deplorable', as 'contrarian' can be included, with bonus name calling for those inclined to use them.<br /> Nice link you provided.<br /> I like this:<br /> "Temperature<br /> Winter temperatures dropped below the long-term average by more than a degree halfway through the 5-century occupation, according to oxygen isotope data in cores taken from the Greenland Ice Sheet."<br /> Is there nothing rising carbon (sic) can't do?<br /> PS. Check my link in response to Wow #65 for an update from your 2016 link, dated March 2017.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yjZQh7RRjns54YQvqn9M2TfmyguWltD0nyMbfWd5skE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark M (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489356221"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Wow, #65: Despite "every link" you have, you fail to provide one.<br /> RE: "blog link ... to geeks ..." ...<br /> "Henriksen, an archaeobotanist at the National Museum's Environmental Archaeology and Archaeometry section (NNU) in Copenhagen ..."<br /> Not sure Henriksen would thank you for so easily dismissing his hard work.<br /> News flash: Geeks ahoy in science!<br /> And, like potatoes, pointing at unicorns amongst the grapes: fail.<br /> So here is another link, and, fwiw, the article treats the Medieval Warm Period as the fact that it is:<br /> "Accordingly, the Vikings were not just dumb, they also had dumb luck: They discovered Greenland during a time known as the Medieval Warm Period, which lasted from about 900 to 1300.<br /> Sea ice decreased during those centuries, so sailing from Scandinavia to Greenland became less hazardous.<br /> Longer growing seasons made it feasible to graze cattle, sheep and goats in the meadows along sheltered fjords on Greenland’s southwest coast."<br /><a href="http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-greenland-vikings-vanished-180962119/">http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-greenland-vikings-vanished-18…</a><br /> Who wants to be the first to call the Smithsonian a name?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o-isv8ZtXo2BT0JeeLLIGyT4iFkKoA6YQHOIJINX8rs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark M (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478747" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489356250"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Marco, #66:<br /> The link says vikings settled 1000 ya and abandoned 140 (approx).<br /> Perhaps they only grew it for 1 year.<br /> "(challenge to you: find the paper)."<br /> As you failed to provide a link to the paper to prove me wrong, I would be 97% confident you haven't read it.<br /> But, Marco, you have failed to provide a link showing that the experiment has been reproduced as you claimed.<br /> Perhaps you made that up.<br /> Look over here, a unicorn hiding amongst the potatoes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478747&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PEdWdUuUm_aUWkosRuyLi8g-uJsdk73H0xzCW32UZak"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mark M (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478747">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478748" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489366302"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Unexpectedly, you are wrong. I did read the paper and therefore know you made stuff up. I cannot show you any scientific papers on current-day barley growing, because people usually don't write scientific papers about a few Greenland farmers trying out stuff.</p> <p>Anyway, one example (but in a bad piece of historical journalism) is here<br /><a href="http://www.economist.com/node/7852916">http://www.economist.com/node/7852916</a></p> <p>I know of field trials of barley in Greenland going on, but they focus on commercial production, so are much more likely to fail.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478748&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="htP-GBqcTBMTAimtlrxI-XAxdtmhMk_osbxKajoke_0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478748">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478749" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489370153"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Someone should come up with a parody version of Dilbert, called Dilbit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478749&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xBvewvaBJ3VA48i_AVdrXeJAzRdwBdUysPvOZRFHGyw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Andy Lee Robinson (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478749">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478750" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489376518"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"@BBD, #64: I dont pretend."</p> <p>Oh, so you're a moron in real life, then.</p> <p>"“(challenge to you: find the paper).”<br /> As you failed to provide a link to the paper to prove me wrong"</p> <p>As you failed to do so, you have not met your burden of proof and your claims are contrary to what we know, there's no need for us to prove you wrong, you have failed to prove you right.</p> <p>"@Wow, #65: Despite “every link” you have, you fail to provide one."</p> <p>And you have given a link that doesn't say what you claim, and what you claim is wrong.</p> <p>Give a link proving you aren't wrong, retardo.</p> <p>Andy, it should be called "Dickbit".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478750&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XmmLe1u1sLPhmkzGoZ1dquH0lGDK-8LoF9FgS-rUyiY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 12 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478750">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478751" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489387193"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Summary: m55 has made several claims, mistaken climate and weather , and failed to supply any evidence at all for what he says, but mocks people for not reading support that doesn't exist. </p> <p>Just another ignorant asshat in the vein of rickA and the mikes</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478751&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sjCfoa6rDJDtJQvV-DKxs-t273QG5C6PUB12_TEzbXo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478751">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478752" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489389610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Who wants to be the first to call the Smithsonian a name?"</p> <p>What sort of name? I call them wrong on this. But that may be more due to simplifying it for children and the uneducated, without worrying about malicious retards deliberately misreading what they say and quote mining the shit out of it.</p> <p>"the Medieval Warm Period as the fact that it is"</p> <p>What wasn't a fact, and one your retarded denier mates made up, was that there was a global MWP and that it was warmer then than it is now.</p> <p>Care to show where in that link it says the MWP was globally warmer than it is today?</p> <p>Moreover, the impression you want to give is that the MWP is being pretended as never to have existed. Got any evidence of this, or was what you said there more industrial-grade stupidity from you that means nothing, because nobody is saying there never was an MWP?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478752&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gLhH_y3oteZoZo1ATJbuGo3lQdg5dSl8W0lzxTG8jWY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478752">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478753" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489389928"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maro, according to the Smithsonian link, Greenlanders were dependent on imports from mainland to survive and paid for it by ivory hunting:</p> <blockquote><p>For all their intrepidness, though, the Norse were far from self-sufficient, and imported grains, iron, wine and other essentials. Ivory was their currency. “Norse society in Greenland couldn’t survive without trade with Europe,” says Arneborg, “and that’s from day one.”</p></blockquote> <p>Are you going to be calling the smithsonian names now? Especially since they're claiming this quote from you is incorrect:</p> <blockquote><p>The Greenland climate was a bit warmer than it is today, and the southernmost tip of the great island was luscious and green and no doubt tempted Eric the Red and his followers.”<br /><a href="http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland">http://sciencenordic.com/vikings-grew-barley-greenland</a></p></blockquote> <p>So you gave a link and called it a done deal, gave another link and showed the earlier one was either misrepresented by you or wrong.</p> <p>Who are you going to call names now, dumbo?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478753&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4fPrZUCJZmMjN2lumZYED4LsC47g5EkkFVQ-W-KtFZQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478753">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478754" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489395809"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mark M</p> <blockquote><p>“Temperature<br /> Winter temperatures dropped below the long-term average by more than a degree halfway through the 5-century occupation, according to oxygen isotope data in cores taken from the Greenland Ice Sheet.”<br /> Is there nothing rising carbon (sic) can’t do?</p></blockquote> <p>So it got colder from about 1ky BCE. Exactly as expected based on reduced NH summer insolation - it's been falling since orbital dynamics ended the last glacial 11.5ky ago at *peak* NH summer insolation. </p> <p>Then, post-1850, comes the Industrial Revolution and aCO2 starts to increase, triggering a slow background warming that really took off post-1970 when emissions did. </p> <p>Next, the 'MWP' that wasn't. You - like so many contrarians - have an imaginary global, synchronous warming event as warm as or warmer than the present. It never happened. There were discontinous, regional warming events spread over several centuries, but <b>global average temperature</b> did not match, let alone exceede late C20th values. </p> <p>Since you bring it up, there's an important point that contrarians never seem to get about the fantasy 'MWP'. There is no evidence for any major forcing change ~950CE - 1350CE. So the various regional climate shifts of the MCA (correct term) were responses to only very slight changes in net radiative forcing. </p> <p>Now, *if* there actually had been a 'hot MWP' (global and synchronous; as warm as or warmer than the present) it would be <b>very strong</b> evidence that the climate system is really quite sensitive to radiative perturbation. This means that the danger of climate impacts from increasing CO2 forcing is increased. </p> <p>One should always think things through, don't you agree?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478754&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YvxFkLAKhrTURQWBl3DVqGPQj0mpl2CrgO1XQyISXKM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478754">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478755" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489402545"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As for the silliness about Vikings, the link I provided at #64 says exactly the same as the Smithsonian article:</p> <blockquote><p>The findings suggest that the Greenland Norse focused less on livestock and more on trade, especially in walrus ivory, and that for food they relied more on the sea than on their pastures. There’s no doubt that climate stressed the colony, but the emerging narrative is not of an agricultural society short on food, but a hunting society short on labor and susceptible to catastrophes at sea and social unrest.</p></blockquote> <p>Presumably this cockwomblery on you part is intended to peddle the 'hot MWP' meme, but if you do that, <b>you are arguing for high climate sensitivity</b>, which I assure you is not what you want to be doing. </p> <p>So please sort out the mess of half-truths, fully wrong stuff, and confusion over the basics or you are going to come badly unstuck. </p> <p>God but this shit gets old.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478755&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aDcxq853K1_DNCAVx27YTV3wTaPn40SbeR56U0fd4y4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478755">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478756" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489408319"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/keystone-xl-game-over/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/keystone-xl-game-…</a></p> <p>Greg Laden, you say low end 2C is impossible, then why did IPCC in its latest report use 1.5C-4.5C, for a slightly higher CO2 concentration than 500?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478756&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z-QEi_VOQ6UBkvGq0xGrPC6Ol_nz2saQScFkfkxECfI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478756">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478757" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489408921"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"you say low end 2C is impossible"</p> <p>It is. Based on current trends, it's already oever 2C and it's not equilibrium yet.</p> <p>" then why did IPCC in its latest report use 1.5C-4.5C"</p> <p>Why is that a problem? Unable to read?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478757&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6kzyB_c9rqORmMQiQ8Pm_byWSBKgh4bq2XhRC8qLooY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478757">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478758" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489409858"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN, how does that realClimate article (from 2011) support your assertion?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478758&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d-vb1cNrJEHMc0HT017Bg07ByfgrCLzvBIvwduhxzYk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478758">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478759" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489410678"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Greg Laden, you say low end 2C is impossible, then why did IPCC in its latest report use 1.5C-4.5C, for a slightly higher CO2 concentration than 500?</p></blockquote> <p>Because of a couple of papers using EBMs that produced what are <b>now understood</b> to be under-estimates of S. The IPCC had to include the low-ball end of the range because there was *at the time* no reason not to. Nobody would do this now, and I am willing to bet that the lower bound will go back up to 2C again in AR6. </p> <p>Frankly, even that is too low. The range that is compatible with palaeoclimate is 2.5 - 3.5C centered on a most likely value close to 3C. </p> <p>This lukewarmer crap never did fit with palaeoclimate so it was always obvious to the non-partisan that it was wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478759&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JDAdj6Z1RVPcKcWPIThyYylDLu7dOYqTCFshaLJAYng"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478759">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478760" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489410792"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And what dean said at #99. Why are you repeatedly waving that RC article around?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478760&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TYbTIC73dQivoplC1K9OPKAT77vWMGe-sK5Ey8FHmpI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478760">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478761" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489412325"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dean they are unrelated. I was asked to provide a link.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478761&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IJO7P6qteLtEofi261szKxSCMGxVFIamw7y81i5A0bs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478761">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478762" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489417772"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, so you provided a link to something else. But you were asked to provide a link, but no such link was found. You showed a HYPERTEXT LINK.</p> <p>Try again, moron.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478762&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sdI-YzdhCBNYbBTdwvAk1hGt9klp9w5yZnQ2t7ArI8A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478762">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478763" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489419579"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So the claim in #80 about models tuned to 3C is unrelated to the realclimate post? The juxtaposition of the two in #80 is confusing</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478763&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0PD-6WLPrmV5ocUIAS7US_Ohf1OaF99eXnfhqFjLW1Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478763">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478764" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489421757"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry, thought you meant the link and the rest of #97. In the post, "and is based on simulations with the U. of Victoria climate/carbon model tuned to yield the mid-range IPCC climate sensitivity. "</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478764&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yfrWIyMS-ny08KpO7SFbg433xDEryEdh7AMmzlSj2lk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478764">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478765" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489424918"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah, "mike", that is what we call "a big fucking lie" there. You were asked for a link here:</p> <blockquote><p> <i>Then how is RealClimate able to use a climate model tuned to yield a 3C response? See their post about Keystone XL</i>.</p> <p>Link please.</p></blockquote> <p>So there's no possible way you can be telling the truth in 105.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478765&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oKBURIyATDGqxPujFmV_skTY__RJZn10mMA_6QAM1W8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478765">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478766" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489432135"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whatever, everyone else understands what was said, so if you want to play pretend word games, have fun.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478766&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TO7G1bae2A950NyzykycDwBEy0gnoHpx1K2Um2alh9k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478766">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478767" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489432332"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think people are misunderstanding what Scott Adams is saying. Gavin can be 100% right, and Scott Adams can 100% agree with what Gavin is saying, but it still keeps Scott's main argument intact- that climate scientists are not very persuasive and arguing weakly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478767&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1TyqlM4-ZwPlhlighCaQ7jbadFNDuuzbpuACOlF2MyU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478767">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478768" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489432490"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Whatever, everyone else understands what was said"</p> <p>No: if I had known you meant something else I wouldn't have asked. You hadn't posted 105 at the time you made that comment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478768&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2wdz1GUd9xFIxFhL7DI9kTeDfrziQqtF9INkiKgrZts"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478768">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478769" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489455983"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“Whatever, everyone else understands what was said”</p> <p>Clearly wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478769&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Gd0mbEiKeFsGocquI4XvGcZtL4a18gUxYNNAMqzjD0U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478769">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478770" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489456084"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"main argument intact- that climate scientists are not very persuasive and arguing weakly'"</p> <p>But this is no way mentioned as his "main argument".</p> <p>And it is also clearly wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478770&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="swsaEBK4Ilpby2o9H8U1eVwDKLRLdDXA5vIW62AkL-s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478770">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478771" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489459492"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Notice how MikeN is studiously unresponsive to the answer at #100 to his question at #97, opting for a flurry of misdirection instead.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478771&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sQwDD_d6MWhTUXZONrf_osd2Cco2anVfAj0LXGmWZjc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 13 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478771">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478772" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489475601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN, if one's ideology depends on rejecting something, no 'proponent' will be able to be persuasive enough to convince that person. To come with an analogous situation, I once spent hours on explaining someone some basic math to show he used the wrong equation in his paper. It did not register, because he would have had to admit the main result in his paper was wrong. He used a similar excuse that my arguments were not persuasive enough, ultimately using the argument from popularity: others were still using the equation, so my arguments had apparently not convinced these people...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478772&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qWwH9rOopi3-402PZ4fQHwwOY87xnla483OQYfbD8qw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 14 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478772">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478773" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489584007"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BBD. I have no followup. Thanks for the answer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478773&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="636K_SjyAHm3mhHq2EYvRImoLV7hEuHhfj-HPmlXHgo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478773">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478774" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489584203"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dean, Wow had 105 when he responded. I assume you understood what I was saying after #105. Seems like a reasonable misunderstanding all around, but Wow decides to go to calling 105 a lie.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478774&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jyTNThimfAveKGFeYuoJ-KxTIASgxGHvoYdlSP31DN4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478774">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478775" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489585399"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Dean, Wow had 105 when he responded."</p> <p>But I never demanded a link, you lying arsehole.</p> <p>I assume you know you're lying, but just don't like it being pointed out.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478775&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ks-L6EoCd6wEAlHrG8xVsxwekcrIscE552oTtJiMkYE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478775">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478776" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1489586086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I didn't know that all statements at this blog are assumed to be about you. I never said you demanded a link.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478776&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6TkfnG-G-Pla8rsxBz3CTA3x0Ee0nTedoFoaep70tXk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 15 Mar 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478776">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478777" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1494734610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#90 Great idea. But i like the name Didcot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478777&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Jv6yRa_oK3kGw-wn6QWrFXNED9aA43KPWHqGscXzRyc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Li D (not verified)</span> on 14 May 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478777">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478778" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1494737439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>‘Pillock’ is a fine word, but IIRC, not really in the American English lexicon?</p></blockquote> <p>Common parlance in the RN.</p> <p>Great points on climate models and sensitivity, as well as pointing at palaeoclimatology from BBD, Greg etc. I do grasp all this but useful for debating elsewhere so bookmarked.</p> <p>And yes Gavin rocks on this stuff. Love his comment replies at Real Climate - so instructional.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478778&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ewKaZgAYrm7AYdQD07VBdUgJeePXd3TT2-wxCXn5l0E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lionel A (not verified)</span> on 14 May 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478778">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1478779" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1494750097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well, Scott is angry at Gavin for not accepting the calls of an ignoramus (and when you don't know something, KNOW you don't know something, but pontificate on it anyway, that is the definition of ignoramus, no matter how smart you are elsewhere) and made another dumbass cartoon to hit back.</p> <p>Because reality doesn't really let him win.</p> <p>Sure, "he's a comic writer", but he's personally invested in this so it really doesn't work like that. You can't "go comedian" when you're evidently deadly serious about something.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1478779&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eKcDwbFuP9H8y2NvvIo61QJIm-1rp32QaaODVL5SFqU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 14 May 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1478779">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2017/03/09/dr-gavin-schmidts-epic-response-to-scott-adams%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 09 Mar 2017 11:07:36 +0000 gregladen 34300 at https://scienceblogs.com TED - Gavin Schmidt on climate modeling https://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2014/05/ted-gavin-schmidt-on-climate-modeling <span>TED - Gavin Schmidt on climate modeling</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In the video below <a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/gavin_schmidt_the_emergent_patterns_of_climate_change">Gavin Schmidt gives a "TED Talk" on climate models</a>, taking us from an overview of their construction to the resulting emergent processes and their skill at reproducing much more than a global average temperature trend.</p> <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JrJJxn-gCdo" height="315" width="560" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0"></iframe><p> Gavin is an excellent communicator and a true hero in humanity's fight against itself over the impending and tragic disruption of our global ecosystem services.  Well worth the 12 or so minutes to watch!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/illconsidered" lang="" about="/author/illconsidered" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">illconsidered</a></span> <span>Mon, 05/05/2014 - 06:19</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/general" hreflang="en">General</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/multi-media" hreflang="en">multi-media</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/technology" hreflang="en">Technology</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-models" hreflang="en">climate models</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gavin-schmidt" hreflang="en">gavin schmidt</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gcm" hreflang="en">gcm</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/global-warming" hreflang="en">global warming</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ted-talk" hreflang="en">TED Talk</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599201" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1399441776"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is very nice . thx</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599201&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="X4rNc0YObo92o7RKxxhohbe5_NmbJ5kbz4AzxpUBxpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">hakan umar (not verified)</span> on 07 May 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599201">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599202" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1400611158"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Relating to Japan's space solar harnessing project,<a href="http://www.iflscience.com/technology/japan-wants-put-giant-solar-farm-space">http://www.iflscience.com/technology/japan-wants-put-giant-solar-farm-s…</a> , If microwaves produced by limited energy supply can be deflected and redirected by HAARP within our atmosphere, and also when focused can open massive holes in the ionosphere and ozone layers, what can be done tenfold with unlimited energy from the sun? Microwave the entire planet if a malfunction were to happen, and tethering anything to the earth could result in claimed ownership of atmospheric regions beyond the mess of airspace regulations already in place as well as creating the idiotic opportunity of harnessing our planets water through these technologies in the future. Microwaves super excite water molecules, but they also cause what equate to lightning bolts if they encounter metals, and metals exist in dirt, rock, magma, and with chem-spraying barium, aluminum and strontium into the atmosphere. Very very dangerous path to pursue.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599202&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XRKrgrwoJDTjvyttXf_ZbZVA6vMYfYSQRAGGhB2oJtg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny Bransford (not verified)</span> on 20 May 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599202">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599203" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1400739724"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>HAARP? (groooaannnnn - not another conspiracy)</p> <p>Looks like we better get Sean Connery back - sounds like the plot of Diamonds are Forever.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599203&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q2sJltV3eaUkGbdLapiI5rL0fKJcfpVCMZbf1hVXTZ4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mandas (not verified)</span> on 22 May 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599203">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599204" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1401204079"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What I sense in the video is the missing guidance of Gavin by his mentor and still mental superior Jim Hansen. Left alone now at GISS the guys there have a truly difficult life now showing own profile and credibility.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599204&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="r9Qa31kTsxtOs-DhLFQMrOJHe1M0xsgIElleKHHMqyU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">freddy (not verified)</span> on 27 May 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599204">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599205" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1402292902"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Has this blog already died? Where are the low-profile climate alarmists mandams, woew etc?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599205&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4X0Rw0Tfp3PjzvlS5iPhu6awxbFsEzIWicpcdF5DCwg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">freddy (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599205">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599206" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1402435592"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is it really true that Gavin is the new GISS director? I cannot believe this since he is only a computer modeller and no meteorologist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599206&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BGO5-ENFnBVEslrGyDT3vpXGQhUAUf7sVs5U83d_1II"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">freddy (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599206">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599207" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1402472775"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That's always been your problem freddy - your worldview is constructed around beliefs rather than facts and evidence.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599207&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KRo8RLBjoNqMfKkKV0TVkMemqDXVDYQURbyXX4ZavIE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mandas (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599207">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599208" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1404438409"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>mannda, you are plainly wrong. I rely only on facts. My question was, whether Gavin is really the new director of GISS?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599208&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fbqq0Qcs6qjjs3__O_M8MYccxx9F9jdTtZGUV98NKQ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">freddy (not verified)</span> on 03 Jul 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599208">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1599209" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1404466694"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>".... I rely only on facts....."</i></p> <p>Great joke freddy! You are a funny man!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1599209&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q5lT1WQTzh2zL5rgZHijqj9afi2BwDYce52QV_NAXdY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mandas (not verified)</span> on 04 Jul 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-1599209">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/illconsidered/2014/05/ted-gavin-schmidt-on-climate-modeling%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 05 May 2014 10:19:37 +0000 illconsidered 41815 at https://scienceblogs.com Congratulations to Gavin https://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2011/10/22/congratulations-to-gavin <span>Congratulations to Gavin</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><img src="http://www.agu.org/news/press/images/pr_2011-34.jpg" align="right" /> I know, I know, I'm late. Never mind. Gavin Schmidt has won the inaugural "<a href="http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2011/2011-34.shtml">AGU Climate Communication Prize</a>"; <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/10/a-well-deserved-honor/">RC</a> has a nice toast.</p> <p>He looks pretty <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/jul/06/gavin-schmidt-climate-change">sexy</a>, I think we can all agree, though not well centered (sometimes he looks more like some <a href="http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/year_in_science_icons/">street crazy</a>). He is clearly right-leaning, unless its a mirror photo. What little hair he has is off the top of the shot; I think they need <a href="http://pickturs.blogspot.com/">a better photographer</a>.</p> <p>I remember now, there was a reason why I wrote this: to point to <a href="http://climatesight.org/2011/10/18/a-conversation-with-gavin-schmidt/">A Conversation with Gavin Schmidt</a> at Climate Sight. Notice how measured Gavin is about the impacts.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/stoat" lang="" about="/author/stoat" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">stoat</a></span> <span>Sat, 10/22/2011 - 07:26</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-people" hreflang="en">climate people</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gavin-schmidt" hreflang="en">gavin schmidt</a></div> </div> </div> <section> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/stoat/2011/10/22/congratulations-to-gavin%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:26:25 +0000 stoat 53285 at https://scienceblogs.com Pearcegate https://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/03/pearcegate <span>Pearcegate</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fred Pearce is going <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/global_warming/rosegate_1/">down the David Rose road</a> publishing fabricated quotes. Gavin Schmidt in a letter to <em>New Scientist</em> (so far unpublished there) writes:</p> <blockquote><p>In the piece entitled <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/02/climate-sceptics-scientists-at.html">"Climate sceptics and scientists attempt peace<br /> deal"</a><br /> Fred Pearce includes a statement about me that is patently untrue.</p> <p>"But the leaders of mainstream climate science turned down the gig,<br /> including NASA's Gavin Schmidt, who said the science was settled so<br /> there was nothing to discuss."</p> <p>This is completely made up. My decision not to accept the invitation to<br /> this meeting was based entirely on the organiser's initial diagnosis of<br /> the cause of the 'conflict' in the climate change debate. I quote from<br /> their introductory letter:</p> <blockquote><p>"At this stage we are planning to have a workshop where the main<br /> scientific issues can be discussed, so that some clarity on points of<br /> agreement and disagreement might be reached. We would try to stay off<br /> the policy issues, and will also exclude personal arguments.</p> <p>The issues we have in mind are Medieval Warm Period, ice, climate<br /> sensitivity, and temperature data. We would hope to have smaller groups<br /> discussing these in some detail, hopefully with scientists who are very<br /> familiar with the technical issues to lead the discussion."</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <!--more--><blockquote><p>Since, in my opinion, the causes of conflict in the climate change<br /> debate relate almost entirely to politics and not the MWP, climate<br /> sensitivity or 'ice', dismissing this from any discussion did not seem<br /> likely to be to help foster any reconciliation.</p> <p>At no point did I declare that the 'science was settled' and that there<br /> was nothing to discuss. Indeed, <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/12/unsettled-science/">I am on record as saying the exact<br /> opposite</a></p> <p>Pearce might well note that even I am included in the "spectrum" that<br /> "disagree[s] with Schmidt"!</p> <p>Fred Pearce did not interview me for this piece. I should like to<br /> request that in future, if my views are of interest, that he (or anyone<br /> else) should actually ask me directly. I am not hard to contact.</p> <p>Yours respectfully,</p> <p>Gavin Schmidt</p> <p>PS. I am not a 'leader of mainstream climate science' either.</p> </blockquote> <p>Commenting on Pierce and the workshop are:</p> <p><a href="http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/fred-pearce-is-still-a-rubbish-journalist/">Things Break</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>I'd ask whether New Scientist wants this kind of indefensible behavior associated with their brand, but clearly they've given Pearce free reign to troll for page views however he sees fit.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2011/02/porky_pearce.php">William Connolley</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>And... if you haven't been part of the climate wars, you might wonder why exactly any of this matters. But "the science is settled" has been one of the mantras used almost exclusively by climate denialists as a term of insult for those actually doing science (Pearce is fully aware of all this back story, of course. He isn't using the phrase accidentally or carelessly). It is a feeble attempt at a double bind: is the science settled? ha ha, then you can't be a scientist because real science is never settled. Is the science not settled? Oh great, then we don't need to do anything until it is. The answer, of course, is that we know now (and indeed have for years) enough about the science to know that the world is warming now due to human activity, and will be warming more into the future from more anthro stuff.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/not-a-misquote-a-nonquote/">Tamino</a>: "This isn't a misquote -- it's just a fabrication."</p> <p><a href="http://climateprogress.org/2011/02/03/new-scientists-fred-pearce-jumps-the-shark/">Joe Romm</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Any conference where most of the participants are obsessed with the Hockey Stick, consider it "totemic," and think its underlying science is unresolved simply isn't a serious scientific meeting. Similarly, no serious journalist should simply publish two sentences questioning the underlying science without any quote from a real climate scientist or citation to the NAS and the multiple, confirming studies.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://profmandia.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/fred-pearce-at-new-scientist-making-stuff-up/">Scott Mandia</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Pearce states ...</p> <blockquote><p>Equally contentious is the charge - the pet subject of several in Lisbon - that the IPCC is "in denial" about whether ocean oscillations, which can absorb and release heat from the atmosphere but are not well represented in climate models, could explain the global warming of the past 40 years.</p> </blockquote> <p>How does a warming ocean cause nights to warm faster than days, the troposphere to warm while the upper layers are cooling, winters to warm faster than summers, measured increases in downwelling heat, and measured decreases in outgoing heat from the planet?</p> <p>What magic are the oceans performing that are mirroring the effects of greenhouse warming while simultaneously stopping the effects of massive increases in heat-trapping gases?</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://rabett.blogspot.com/2011/02/through-glass-darkly.html">Eli Rabett</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Many have placed their bets on Fred. Eli is not quite so sure, where, better put, from whom would Pearce have gotten his information. Jerry Ravitz who is trying to muscle his way in springs to mind and, of course, luminaries such as the Steves are right up there.</p> </blockquote> <p><strong>Update:</strong> At Judith Curry's blog tallbloke <a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-37569">writes</a></p> <blockquote><p>To set the record straight:</p> <p>Because I was an ad hoc member of the invite committee I got an email asking my advice on who to invite in lieu of Gavin Schmidt and some other prominent people who had declined. The organisers inadvertantly included Gavin's response on that email, and when I was asked one evening in Lisbon why certain people weren't there I gave a quick praisee, including a brief reference to Gavin's response. This made it's way to Fred, hence the reference in his blog piece reporting on the conference.</p> <p>I would just stress at this point that what I said constitutes my opinion and not what Gavin said verbatim. However I would also like to say that Gavin's complaint to the New Scientist does not include any praisee of the passage in his original response which gave rise to my brief summary. I therefore reject Gavin's claim that I 'made stuff up', and respectfully suggest that we can lay this one to rest if in a spirit of openness Gavin simply reproduces his response so people can see for themselves what he said.</p> <p>If I am assailed by accusations that I have wrongfully maligned Gavin with my brief summary comment I may feel obliged to defend myself with a closer paraphrase.</p> </blockquote> <p>Yes, they had <a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/confirmation-of-transmissive-medium-pervading-space/">an ether crank</a> on the invite committee.</p> <p><strong>Update 2:</strong> Gavin Schmidt <a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-37920">posts his actual email</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Thanks for the invitation. However, I'm a little confused at what conflict you feel you are going to be addressing? The fundamental conflict is of what (if anything) we should do about greenhouse gas emissions (and other assorted pollutants), not what the weather was like 1000 years ago. Your proposed restriction against policy discussion removes the whole point. None of the seemingly important 'conflicts' that are <em>perceived</em> in the science are 'conflicts' in any real sense within the scientific community, rather they are proxy arguments for political positions. No 'conflict resolution' is possible between the science community who are focussed on increasing understanding, and people who are picking through the scientific evidence for cherries they can pick to support a pre-defined policy position.</p> <p>You would be much better off trying to find common ground on policy ideas via co-benefits (on air pollution, energy security, public health water resources etc), than trying to get involved in irrelevant scientific 'controversies'.</p> </blockquote> <p>I don't think it is accurate to summarise this as "the science is settled".</p> <p><strong>Update 3:</strong><br /><a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-38454">Steve McIntyre</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>I can confirm that Fred Pearce read Gavin's email to the organizers declining the invitation to the conference, because I (by chance) happened to be sitting with Pearce when he was provided with a copy of Gavin's email and observed him reading it carefully.</p> </blockquote> <p><a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-38573">tallbloke</a></p> <blockquote><p>I got Fred to read it out loud to Steve and Ross. So he couldn't make notes at the same time. And we had a couple of beers, which may be why he didn't remember it very clearly later.</p> </blockquote> <p>Compare with his earlier comment "to set the record straight"</p> <blockquote><p>when I was asked one evening in Lisbon why certain people weren't there I gave a quick praisee, including a brief reference to Gavin's response. This made it's way to Fred, hence the reference in his blog piece reporting on the conference.</p> </blockquote> <p>Deceitful, isn't he?</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/tlambert" lang="" about="/author/tlambert" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">tlambert</a></span> <span>Thu, 02/03/2011 - 17:38</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pearcegate" hreflang="en">Pearcegate</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/fred-pearce" hreflang="en">Fred Pearce</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gavin-schmidt" hreflang="en">gavin schmidt</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/policy" hreflang="en">Policy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934150" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1337443856"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Don't bother using Miles Mathis as a reference for anything except as an example of a classic delusional crackpot. His hilarious p=4 will be the cornerstone of his undoing. He knows he's wrong and he won't retract or revise that paper, which is classic crackpot behavior. If deriving the correct value of pi does a number on his head you can understand why the rest of his "papers" are so skewed. It seems every manner of laziness, incompetence, and inconsistency battle for mastery within him. Mathis never got over being called a "genius" once in high school and his life has been wasted in a futile quest to be recognized as a Renaissance man equally masterful in science, mathematics, painting, sculpture, music, singing, writing fiction, poetry, art criticism, book reviewing and political commentary. The truth, though, is that he inept to mediocre in all these fields.<br /> After making the big splash with his absurd science papers he is sinking fast as people test his ideas and, instead of seeing the justness of his assertions, see only the flabby thinking, the unsupported claims, the lack of editing, the long windedness, the lack of understanding of basic scientific principles, the disorganized stream of consciousness writing and the incessant attacks on all scientists and all mathematicians and conclude that Mathis is a jealous, bitter kook.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934150&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gff3ATwOTS6Dh1rGVgSIbCqgqZQ5TMsn9-N4-FGdBPA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">joaquin (not verified)</span> on 19 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934150">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934151" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296775832"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'd sue the prick...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934151&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="74M_LKvGIssKeoeHz3D7M4LL41IfiSW5frj-WI7bJzQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ianash (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934151">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934152" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296783381"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was going to parody this week's issue of NS, and went as far as [knocking up the logo](<a href="http://i53.tinypic.com/2eelx0n.jpg">http://i53.tinypic.com/2eelx0n.jpg</a>), when I discovered that Codling had already nicked the idea for her own internally-ironic purposes. I lost enthusiasm after that.</p> <p>At least I went as far as using the right font. Codling was too lazy to get even that correct.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934152&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0h1T0bOiqjGrGBOqFD1e7zVlfM6l083Y-cbM6po5pSo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934152">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934153" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296797922"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The idea that science can be done via 'peace summits' is patently ridiculous.</p> <p>Really, science by horse-trading instead of fact-finding -- how will that even work? Will Michael Mann say to S. Fred Singer, 'Dr. Singer, as a goodwill gesture, I'm willing to abandon the hockey stick if you'll stop writing about the so-called 1,500-year climatic cycle'? Or what? This is all just totally wrong-headed.</p> <p>-- <a href="http://climategate.tk/">frank</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934153&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HQANS01pGVYqE2n5Irdxx6qXo56wWcI02iNEs6UU7uc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://climategate.tk/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="frank -- Decoding SwiftHack">frank -- Decod… (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934153">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934154" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296799946"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Would anyone organise a reconciliation conference for biologists and creationists? Historians and holocaust deniers? Medical researchers and the tobacco industry? The notion is nonsense.</p> <p>The point where I lost all respect for Pearce is when he constructed that notorious Climategate article around the false notion of peer-review being the "supposed gold standard". It's distressing that he is now resorting to fabricating quotes in order to maintain his position as a champion of the non-existent middle ground.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934154&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GPU3WQKrEFn11EHrz0zQB7QxgbW11Jwb6PbbT6UzlZY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JamesA (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934154">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934155" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296805925"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And why not JamesA??</p> <p>Afterall, Judith Curry seems to think that science will be done in the comments to her blog.</p> <p>I think it's just as likely, and a fair analogy to Climate Etc, that you could leave a sheaf of A4 pages and a pencil on a bar in a pub and come back at closing time and collect a Pulitzer Prize winning novel.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934155&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0hDRiU1MYv7B-f83NCgD4jTd2_CveKb5U4N2ZBi-zow"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934155">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934156" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296810178"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>**Update:** At Judith Curry's blog tallbloke [writes](<a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-37569">http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-par…</a>)</p> <p>&gt;To set the record straight:</p> <p>&gt;Because I was an ad hoc member of the invite committee I got an email asking my advice on who to invite in lieu of Gavin Schmidt and some other prominent people who had declined. The organisers inadvertantly included Gavin's response on that email, and when I was asked one evening in Lisbon why certain people weren't there I gave a quick praisee, including a brief reference to Gavin's response. This made it's way to Fred, hence the reference in his blog piece reporting on the conference.</p> <p>&gt;I would just stress at this point that what I said constitutes my opinion and not what Gavin said verbatim. However I would also like to say that Gavin's complaint to the New Scientist does not include any praisee of the passage in his original response which gave rise to my brief summary. I therefore reject Gavin's claim that I 'made stuff up', and respectfully suggest that we can lay this one to rest if in a spirit of openness Gavin simply reproduces his response so people can see for themselves what he said.</p> <p>&gt;If I am assailed by accusations that I have wrongfully maligned Gavin with my brief summary comment I may feel obliged to defend myself with a closer paraphrase.</p> <p>Yes, they had [an ether crank](<a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/confirmation-of-transmissive-medium-pervading-space/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/confirmation-of-transmissive-…</a>) on the invite committee.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934156&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ljYhkjbt12gym0H1hvvYukiQwlgHsZPUUjp8bdlKj5Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim Lambert (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934156">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934157" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296810257"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If the letter continues to go unpublished I'd recommend the Press Complaints Commission.</p> <p>.. then sue the fucker.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934157&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qTHyJA9shD2nS79qfT9bB54v8COgJDMnBYwW7rvHcds"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="https://me.yahoo.com/a/3m7DJ5IDuekRrDecB7fQFVvUILuLjxgy#f34f">https://me.yah… (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934157">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934158" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296810573"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Showed up this morning postdated</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934158&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GEVrVicjY5DF73s7-0AmnSum6HllPADIdv1Zxb0qugg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://rabett.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eli Rabett (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934158">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934159" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296812002"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The article reads like a straightforwards hash up of what the conference organisers and attendees say and think. Which sort of thing has its place, but not if you are trying to report on science, since there appears to be none involved in the conference.<br /> I can imagine a similar sort of write up being done by someone attending the annual get together of, to make up a fictional example on a topic I am interesting in, 'people who want to restore castles and live in them'. The reporter would write down a variety of bitching about the authorities who won't let them do what they want, without any idea of whether the aims of the restorer are correct, useful, accurate, or downright destructive.<br /> So it is here. Pearce has reported the views of a bunch of people who are, scientifically speaking, cranks, as if it merits as much reporting and discussion of a conference on vaccination, or carbon or something, but not included any reference to the actual science and views of the majority of people involved in that area.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934159&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DWr2BGlkbNvq5DznPqhM8LC6Qh1SRPaO8FCMfTTLd7s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">guthrie (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934159">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934160" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296813424"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>..when I was asked one evening in Lisbon why certain people weren't there I gave a quick praisee..</p></blockquote> <p>I thought I had a reasonable vocabulary, but what wtf does "praisee" mean? Does he mean précis?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934160&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eh9h8gE6nix3eiXMFnzsPCi7ZHPjY6ZQdgf_2CmYK5M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lord_sidcup (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934160">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934161" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296813982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"what I said constitutes my opinion and not what Gavin said verbatim"<br /> so, it's not anything like you making stuff up. Got it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934161&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NH0ulnzSgzTGK8SzFPX22FeCD5_Rf-wng-oGTUgSDmY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">_Arthur (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934161">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934162" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296814265"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just be grateful it wasn't "pray see"...</p> <p>:-)</p> <p>Mind you, this bloke doesn't seem to know what the words mean anyway:</p> <p>&gt; I therefore reject Gavin's claim that I 'made stuff up'</p> <p>But that's what he did:</p> <p>&gt; I would just stress at this point that what I said constitutes my opinion and not what Gavin said verbatim.</p> <p>Therefor attribution of his opinion as what Gavin said IS "making stuff up". Avoidance of that claim would be unnecessary if he'd said "my opinion of why Gavin didn't turn up, based on what I read in his response is ...".</p> <p>You know, say it was an opinion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934162&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BnDYGNLbJorH4-SdZTmGsV7ah-AVF801Vh4jvE7i-EI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934162">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934163" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296816119"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) Postnormal academics create a dumb conference.<br /> 2) the ad hoc organizing committee includes Tallbloke, whose website should be consulted. Recall tshirt he gave Curry.<br /> 2) Tallbloke is asked for advice on climate scientists to invite, a task fir which his qualifications seen unobvious. Ravetz/Oxford might be asked why.</p> <p>3) they accidentally give Gavin response to Tallbloke.</p> <p>4) he comments in it. (if were running an organizing committee, that would be the last time Tallbloke got asked to do anything, ever.</p> <p>5) but Tallbloke thinks it us ip to Gavin to respond....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934163&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="clUE7lVD7-7aYFRhMqp90D8Oojuxdk8E32gauPDA9Cg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934163">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934164" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296816615"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fred Pearce, another interpreter of interpretations....</p> <p>Does anyone else get the distinct impression that Roger Tattersall (Tall Bloke)-- he outed himself on the NewScientist forum-- is making a veiled threat against Schmidt in his post at Curry's place? Honorable denialist he is.</p> <p>Now it might be that Schmidt did say something silly in his email to Tall Bloke, that does not change matters:</p> <p>1) <b>Schmidt is on the record saying the science is not settled</b>,<br /> 2) I doesn't absolve Pearce failing to contact Schmidt directly to confirm Tall Bloke's claim and to get Schmidt's side of the story which would have permitted him to use quotes.</p> <p>Pity Schmidt cannot sue both Pearce and Tall Bloke for defamation. Funny how these folks like to routinely defame, slander, libel people across the pond, or out of country.....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934164&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j7RsJ0n_5STwG8dOim8IVooJ5_7TuPxt-uqZEj3GHCc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934164">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934165" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296818632"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tim, you might want to correct the following:</p> <p>&gt;Pearce states ...</p> <p>&gt;Equally contentious is the charge - the pet subject of several in Lisbon - that the IPCC is "in denial" about whether ocean oscillations, which can absorb and release heat from the atmosphere but are not well represented in climate models, could explain the global warming of the past 40 years. [How does a warming ocean cause nights to warm faster than days, the troposphere to warm while the upper layers are cooling, winters to warm faster than summers, measured increases in downwelling heat, and measured decreases in outgoing heat from the planet?]</p> <p>The bracketed part is Scott Mandias' words. We wouldn't want Pearce accusing you of mis-quoting him, would we? Even if doing so would cast him in a more reasonable light?</p> <p>*[Corrected. Thanks. Tim]*</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934165&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XwwKsq1uGyy5siHBbpwO4qZp3ELeoaMCdaEGW_awSUU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934165">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934166" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296827004"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Every so often I try to think how this will look to your grandchildren (and my grand-nephews-and-nieces). From their perspective, we're all in this together, believe it or not.</p> <p>So I find this hopeful:</p> <p>&gt; January 29, 2011 by Judith Curry:<br /> &gt; I was hoping to put to rest any skeptical debate<br /> &gt; about the basic physics of gaseous infrared<br /> &gt; radiative transfer. </p> <p>and almost a thousand comments later:</p> <p>&gt; curryja February 4, 2011 at 2:04 pm<br /> &gt; I am preparing two new greenhouse posts for this eve<br /> &gt; (one science, one etc). hoping this will help.</p> <p>Yeah, there's notions in between that seem utterly impossible to put together in the same bottle. </p> <p>But step back in space and ahead in time and we are all in the same bottle, the big round blue one, here and now.</p> <p>We might as well get good at it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934166&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Yfy1X8eEIOCeuLS7Zg2Sqx17iFZX6fIYbPQOQO3k3tQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Hank Roberts (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934166">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934167" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296827298"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Schmidt has called Tattersall's bluff and....crickets. Zilch from TallBloke.</p> <p>Yes, Hank while we play these "games" the planet continues to accumulate energy and the the prognosis for future generations looks bleaker. But I do not know what the alternative is...to let the rabid denialists run amok?</p> <p>What an effing mess...TGIF.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934167&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0wY5TNSHtNvYyvKyM9pPMCnbyGBuUyd76TemPGXpWeE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934167">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934168" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296827474"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#10 lord sidcup, I'm sure 'précis' is correct. The moral being: if you're going to use a fancy French word twice in a letter, find out how to spell it first.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934168&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I_DpWLGesb2KvAqogmzcgemZX3-_CjAqNONikndRQFc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Holly Stick (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934168">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934169" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296830644"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How stupid! Discussion with âcontrariansâ in an attempt to reconcile differences with conventional climate science is either impossible or aimed at compromising the truth. It has long been obvious that the position adopted by contrarians is only sustained by manipulating and misrepresenting science and empirical fact , as so ably demonstrated by McIntyre, Mosher and Monckton. I do so hate inherent intellectual dishonesty from either âsideâ.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934169&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q_Ot5jNEM7sSsj-OOjvTF7qIirPgmGXd_9-7Ve3sDI4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike Pope (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934169">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934170" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296830936"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cross-posted from CP:</p> <p>"Now Pearce, Tattersall and the organizing committee of the workshop (including Curry) owe Schmidt a grovelling apology.</p> <p>Schmidt never said that the science is settled or that there was nothing to discuss. That was Tattersall's tainted interpretation of Schmidt's email (URL below) which Pearce then parroted without having the professionalism or integrity or decency to check with Schmidt first.</p> <p><a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/gavin-schmidt-response-to-lisbon-invitation/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/gavin-schmidt-response-to-lis…</a>"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934170&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uT2nDxw4aJluBgK5Fxca7YFlG7iFDTUZo4_w-6sM9F0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934170">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934171" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296834247"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well that grudging retraction was like pulling teeth.</p> <p>What is hilarious is that cranks such as Tallbloke et al who beaver away attaching themselves to Curry in the hope that her erstwhile professional standing will pull them out of the slime, is instead pulling her down into it.</p> <p>I guess Judy didn't have the stones to rip up that 'awarded' T-shirt, or find it professionally offensive in case that would have spoiled the moment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934171&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ag5B3HYuYWUASCk1MGzY6aNsbxDfsY-o3W9c3zmzD6Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934171">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934172" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296837381"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chek @21,</p> <p>"Well that grudging retraction was like pulling teeth."</p> <p>Could you elaborate please? I am aware of no retraction or apology from any of the guilty party's.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934172&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BYfxbIEcDtbC3G-6GmTEUVru5_uZXRL0Zj-PCDdUesQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934172">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934173" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296841325"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi all,</p> <p>"Yes, they had an ether crank on the invite committee."</p> <p>An ad hoc member of the invite committee. I know people from both sides of the debate, so they decided I could help out.</p> <p>My take on the results from Miller which were confirmed by Yuri Galaev in 2003 is that they were measuring something real. What it is, we donât know. Because we don't know is not a good reason for denying the results of the empirical findings. Please donât characterize me as a âcrankâ, Iâm a qualified engineer with a degree in the history and philosophy of science.</p> <p>Einstein said this of Millerâs experiment:<br /> âMy opinion about Millerâs experiments is the following. ⦠Should the positive result be confirmed, then the special theory of relativity and with it the general theory of relativity, in its current form, would be invalid. Experimentum summus judex. Only the equivalence of inertia and gravitation would remain, however, they would have to lead to a significantly different theory.â</p> <p>â Albert Einstein, in a letter to Edwin E. Slosson, July 1925</p> <p>Given that our best instrumentation and our interpretation of the data we get confirms general and special relativity, we are left with the puzzle of what Miller and Galaev were measuring. I simply post about interesting puzzles and donât worry overmuch about how they contradict each other. Itâs all good stuff we can learn from, and any of these theories may be suddenly revived by some unexpected experimental result. As Einstein said:</p> <p>Experimentum summus judex</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934173&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ls-Q--Pv9pCr7ubBPLCxRcGAyrAsiJpPNDnmIfE3Ycs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934173">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934174" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296841692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Perhaps you're more right than I am ML and I've read too much into [this sentence](<a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/gavin-schmidt-response-to-lisbon-invitation/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/gavin-schmidt-response-to-lis…</a>): <i>"However, I felt that taking responsibility for publishing lay with me and so I have posted it here at the Talkshop. I hope that this will" blah blah blah</i></p> <p>On reflection, I don't think it would have satisfied Andrew Weaver either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934174&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mn2SbAi_cwjWtDJJzLqSzcBiUDJJtNw392Haoc-rcQg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934174">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934175" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296841793"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke @23,</p> <p>Are you going to do the right and honorable thing and apologize to Dr. Schmidt for misrepresenting what he said in his email?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934175&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qlegygMda6_-VpzizFWdyEPTMWKskM-S6mDcNcXFBEk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934175">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934176" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296842812"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MapleLeaf @25<br /> Are you going to do the right and honourable thing and apologize for broadcasting my job title and location on the open internet?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934176&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TP83RK-kAIaqKqhMapxfbDXS_TeyV_Og3YE6-zi1PxQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934176">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934177" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296844497"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Stop obfuscating Roger....that information was made available at DeepClimate (and is available elsewhere as I recall), and you provided more information at NewScientist. And you apologizing to Dr. Schmidt is not contingent on me apologizing or not. That would be a lame excuse no?</p> <p>Now, I thought that you were interested in reconciliation? At least that is what you claim.</p> <p>So in that spirit and to set a good example, please apologize for misrepresenting and defaming Dr. Schmidt.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934177&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ptYZCdfzCnvsdQaNWg-u8fRV33DKrX1dK0GqurcQkWg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934177">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934178" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296845086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>TallBloke,</p> <p>On second thought, if me posting your affiliation caused you concern or grief, then I sincerely apologize.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934178&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_RynKBlaTTM6QIeqCimIS7jUENTJ88UB4D78DBBFZ_g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934178">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934179" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296846060"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's all up to you Tallbloke.</p> <p>You can decide to unequivocally do the right thing, or continue to vacillate and deflect and generally act like slime.</p> <p>But realise it doesn't work in your favour, and it's the place you're dragging Curry down to.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934179&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Tf5wNK909TqD5Tc0kx2XIjNk812dk0W-1DAf8GyJnHE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934179">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934180" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296847864"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ 25 Tallbloke<br /> It was part funded by the European Commission's Joint Research Centre. Is the JRC exempt from FOIA requests anyway? Get over it, it's not like your name's gonna be headline news. Even Tamino has to publish under his real name, and it's not exactly a big secret.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934180&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6cWUFJB0NIWqXoTAybuqjrEDOlWsr616LyWwoTQrEzc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934180">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934181" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296848050"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ML thanks. It does cause me concern, because my rolling contract is at the whim of an employer running a big atmospheric science dept.</p> <p>Chek, Gavin said:<br /> "None of the seemingly important âconflictsâ that are *perceived* in the science are âconflictsâ in any real sense within the scientific community"</p> <p>This sounds a lot like "The science is settled" to me.</p> <p>You disagree, but consider that by saying such a thing, Gavin is effectively excluding many honest researchers from "the scientific community"</p> <p>I see this as a problem of balance and good judgement. We need a more reasonable dialogue within the *whole scientific community* not just that part of it which all agrees.</p> <p>A dialogue which includes anomalous data and conflicting interpretations. This is healthy for scientific advance.</p> <p>The raiative sums say the extra co2 has inflated the diameter of the troposphere by what, 200m?</p> <p>How much has the diminished solar activity shrunk it if the mesosphere is own by 30%</p> <p>No-one knows yet. The science is not settled.</p> <p>What we do know is that OLR has stayed high, and that indicates more energy is leaving the system, while less is coming in from a quiescent sun. How much is that counteracting any co2 effect?</p> <p>We don't know yet, because the error band on measuring OLR is three times wider than the signals we calculate should be there.</p> <p>Embrace the uncertainty. It is possible that any one of three or more factors could predominate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934181&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EBb4gJcveulN-gIzHjcs_O4deQyHhGqm8HhluT37DP4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934181">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934182" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296848709"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To extract:</p> <p>"The science is settled"</p> <p>from:</p> <p>"None of the seemingly important âconflictsâ that are perceived in the science are âconflictsâ in any real sense within the scientific community"</p> <p>requires a feat of mental acrobatics that is way beyond anything that I am capable of achieving. I am simply in awe of Tallblokes intellectual dexterity!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934182&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OQbAoJITXXZ1VDW8oc6LBl_BWrG2rTLnfJfPN3WuYqk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">himThere (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934182">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934183" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296849070"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> This sounds a lot like "The science is settled" to me. </p></blockquote> <p>If you can't grok the distinction between the original statement and your "paraphrase", then you aren't equipped to reliably comment on the science.</p> <p>Of course, the other possibility is that you do grok the difference, which leads to a whole 'nother conclusion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934183&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AWVhQEgSv10woAXbfC2itYdZCFhSNtrZ-CEKxCF0iss"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lotharsson (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934183">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934184" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296849729"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Guys @32&amp;33</p> <p>Easy now. I accept that people on opposite sides of the divide are going to perceive this differently. Can you?</p> <p>And just because I find Gavin's effective exclusion of Lindzen, Spencer, Loehle and Soon from the 'scientific community' distasteful doesn't mean we can't debate the uncertainty around TOA energy balance measurement does it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934184&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="116fR9k0tBW7yE2BUF9ygibi1rwu5ZC4JY6ram0BCNI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934184">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934185" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296851357"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Tallcrank](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3216743">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3216743</a>):<br /> &gt;The science is not settled.</p> <p>How many more times do you need to be told that [that is a straw man](<a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/12/unsettled-science/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/12/unsettled-science/</a>)?</p> <p>&gt;Embrace the uncertainty.</p> <p>Do you have any reason to conclude that the uncertainty is all in one direction, or do you mean to advocate strong measures to curtail CO2 emissions in case the risk has been underestimated?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934185&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="V9MO_iSx2DozZkCF-_xqR4fGJdnNW6DCUoGlK38w6Po"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dave R (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934185">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934186" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296851840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Tallbloke -- "This sounds a lot like "The science is settled" to me."</i></p> <p>Not to me.</p> <p><i>Tallbloke -- "You disagree, but consider that by saying such a thing, Gavin is effectively excluding many honest researchers from "the scientific community"..."</i></p> <p>That's your opinion, but if you mean, say, Dr. Bas van Geel of the University of Amsterdam then you might have a point.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934186&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="x3Zn8jEYsTWTEWHpG7W_lmSwM_l4ZSYGFCsn5FQVJUs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934186">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934187" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296851931"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Tallbloke said:](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3216743">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3216743</a>)"This sounds a lot like "The science is settled" to me. You disagree, but consider that by saying such a thing, Gavin is effectively excluding many honest researchers from "the scientific community".</p> <p>Firstly TB, that isn't what Pearce reported. </p> <p>If he'd reported instead that "some nonentity told me <i>"This sounds a lot like "The science is settled" to me. You disagree, but consider that by saying such a thing, Gavin is effectively excluding many honest researchers from "the scientific community".</i> there wouldn't be this topic.</p> <p>Secondly you say "excluding many honest researchers".</p> <p>That'd be those inexperienced and unpublished but ever honest, blogresearchin', self-selected, blogscience "experts" like you, I presume. </p> <p>It's a tired routine that "Goddard", Mosher and Fuller have already and ineffectively done to death.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934187&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I7jPenQu6zAhb-FqsxOB62TfmlWUenF1KCibFwiksi0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934187">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934188" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296853034"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah sure Roger,</p> <p>Gavin explicitly saying in his response that the job of science is to "increase understanding" allows you "percieve" he was saying 'the science is settled'.</p> <p>That's a very large pile of steaming horse manure.</p> <p>Or a potentially terminal case of confirmation bias.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934188&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N4ASK2WubtCXRtHPJ7IKdfjhSIdM-TALWVQmGySpub4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934188">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934189" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296855314"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rog Tallbloke:</p> <p>1) Were you authorized by the organizers to repeat (or really interpret publicly) Gavin's email? If so, I assume you can say who did it.</p> <p>2) If not, can you state for sure that you believe that as an ad hoc committee member who accidentally got a copy, it is your right to do this?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934189&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KyV7RaoVejDvvDsrrCFRbwvhI7MoKwmAOhGsphhPebw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934189">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934190" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296856018"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>tallbloke said:</p> <blockquote><p>We need a more reasonable dialogue within the whole scientific community not just that part of it which all agrees.</p></blockquote> <p>It seems to me that 97% is as close as you can get to the "whole scientific community", the other 3% are cranks, non-scientists and just plain dishonest.</p> <p>You also admit that your involvement with climate science is a religious effort (from your blog):</p> <blockquote><p>yes, thatâs why I mostly pontificate about internal climate changes</p></blockquote> <p>pon·tif·i·cate intr.v. (-kt) pon·tif·i·cat·ed, pon·tif·i·cat·ing, pon·tif·i·cates<br /> 1. To express opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way.<br /> 2. To administer the office of a pontiff.</p> <p>Do you not find it ironic that most deniers accuse supporters of AGW of following a religious bent? I don't think you really understand what science is and how it is practiced. You are typical of people who get a first degree in a science related subject then think that they know all about science and how scientists conduct their research.</p> <p>You are a crank.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934190&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Mr1CErJN_MMrOugBmeXQojNJOpQrtErJXl9AD8XQTIo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Forrester (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934190">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934191" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296858691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Please don't characterize me as a 'crank', Iâm a qualified engineer with a degree in the history and philosophy of science. [...] Do you know the difference between quoting Einstein about doing experiments.</p> <p>Instead of actually <em>doing</em> experiments, you brandish your college degree and quote Einstein.</p> <p>So Tallbloke thinks that science can be done by "peace talks", and now he seems to think that science can be done by uttering Einstein quotes.</p> <p>-- <a href="http://climategate.tk/">frank</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934191&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ku7dfx4RwySqdk9BiItwumGJhoQ0FZqTVP5snG6zvvQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://climategate.tk/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="frank -- Decoding SwiftHack">frank -- Decod… (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934191">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934192" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296859515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke had seen the email, accidentally.<br /> Others who had not seen it, and could not, asked.</p> <p>The right, honorable answer was:</p> <p>"I cannot comment."</p> <p>I'm sure, given the mix of attendees, Tallbloke's interpretation (of something that could not be checked) quickly became fact, at least good enough for Pearce.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934192&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Bbx_u_vqUF_1YUAcv2hsHUsOQ2F6ylMwLv5dUwhWNMI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934192">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934193" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296863040"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>tallbloke writes:</p> <p>&gt;*I accept that people on opposite sides of the divide are going to perceive this differently. Can you?*</p> <p>But your crime tallbloke (and that of Pearce as well) is that rather than give readers the option to "perceive this differently", you both, instead gave your own biased version rather than letting people decide based on the actual factual statement.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934193&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g0oAyQsysNrUvnFdHtL2iaH1tLGlUrZxZuxUbi--cmU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934193">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934194" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296863351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is so very unfortunate of the 'skeptics' and contrarians cannot being themselves to acknowledge that they erred and correct a wrong. They cannot even, to my knowledge, bring themselves to say "sorry" when they have knowingly damaged someone's reputation and been the source of a myth that will be used by people with agendas to continue to smear Gavinn Schmidt.</p> <p>It is this dogmatic behaviour that will ensure that the 'skeptics' and contrarians will continue to have a serious credibility issue, will not be trusted and will be alienated. They have no-one else to blame but themselves.</p> <p>Today Roger had a chance to break that mould, he chose not to, at east not yet.</p> <p>PS: And if Tallbloke is so concerned about his employer's take on this, then he should not have indicated his official affiliation as he did; instead he should have indicated that he was attending as a private citizen. It seems that he was not there in an official capacity on behalf of his employer-- that is his error in judgement not that of others.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934194&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PYNojojgdCEPn-w8PuSgpWA4NOwBXPy1j-M2GR8e_CQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934194">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934195" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296869974"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>praisee&gt;</p></blockquote> <p>Facepalm</p> <blockquote><p>Please don't characterize me as a 'crank', Iâm a qualified engineer</p></blockquote> <p>Double Facepalm</p> <p>Puts paper bag over head in anticipation of Roger reinforcing other negative engineer stereotypes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934195&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AtYvXjnY2AaQaYB0WbcLs0vxHDQMOuilZWfy5X9DbL8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Militant Agnostic (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934195">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934196" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296873958"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hey Lotharsson, welcome back! You were missed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934196&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M0zgNw0b1KQqkgT83ys28lXOGNz12aeljiNxjzfENFw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934196">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934197" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296877299"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ML @44 "if Tallbloke is so concerned about his employer's take on this, then he should not have indicated his official affiliation as he did; instead he should have indicated that he was attending as a private citizen. It seems that he was not there in an official capacity on behalf of his employer-- that is his error in judgement not that of others."</p> <p>The organisers did that for E.U. procedural reasons. I didn't know they were going to. I just flushed your previous apology @28 down the pan, where it merges with your true colours. I should have realised that jumping to conclusions on the basis of insufficient evidence is the distinguishing feature of alarmists like yourself.</p> <p>@43 "But your crime tallbloke (and that of Pearce as well) is that rather than give readers the option to "perceive this differently", you both, instead gave your own biased version rather than letting people decide based on the actual factual statement."</p> <p>And of course if I'd published Gavin's response before he gave permission to do so you'd be accusing me of a different "crime".</p> <p>@42 The right, honorable answer was:"I cannot comment."</p> <p>We're not as secretive as the people whose failure to disclose FOI'd information you defend. Attendees had a legitimate interest in the reasons for declining the invitation to dialogue IMO.</p> <p>@41 "Instead of actually doing experiments, you brandish your college degree and quote Einstein."</p> <p>Where can I read about the experiments you do? Mine are published openly, honestly and without concern for those who will characterize it as 'crank science' because they don't understand it or have an agenda which makes them attack it.</p> <p>@40 "It seems to me that 97% is as close as you can get to the "whole scientific community"</p> <p>I suspect your source is the survey which only selected two of the questions and answers for publication. It's rubbish evidence, but hey there's plenty of that about.</p> <p>@39 1) No<br /> 2) Gavin gave me his permission. Something which has increased my respect for him if not for his scientific output.</p> <p>@38 Gavin said the community he had just defined as excluding dissenting scientists were furthering knowledge. In fact, by ensuring that only those in the consensus are included in this effort, they fall victim to their own confirmation bias. A much more worrying issue than my off the cuff summary of Gavin's reasons for declining to attend at Lisbon.<br /> Get a sense of proportion</p> <p>@37 "That'd be those inexperienced and unpublished but ever honest, blogresearchin', self-selected, blogscience "experts" like you, I presume."</p> <p>No, I'm referring to distinguished scientists with research findings which don't gel with the "97%".</p> <p>@36 <a href="http://www2.glos.ac.uk/accrotelm/uniamst.html">http://www2.glos.ac.uk/accrotelm/uniamst.html</a> Thanks for the namedrop, there's a nugget of gold in every pile of steaming horse manure.</p> <p>@35 "Do you have any reason to conclude that the uncertainty is all in one direction, or do you mean to advocate strong measures to curtail CO2 emissions in case the risk has been underestimated?"</p> <p>Well, I'm not as keen on implementing the precautionary principle as you may be. I think resilience and robustness with preparedness to deal with both warm and cold regimes is advisable, given the uncertainty, and the fact that local variation far exceeds the warming signal in magnitude.</p> <p>Thanks for entertaining my visit and especially to those who posted comments to which non-combative replies were possible. Please do not adjust your mindset - Normal programming will be resumed shortly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934197&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k6ikupWVLWu6ganq3gKIjJkZFgQnEUMA8_QkuCB0Vg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 04 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934197">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934198" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296882412"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>47 Tallbloke -- "Thanks for the namedrop,..."</i></p> <p>Here's a <a href="http://profmandia.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/taking-the-money-for-granted-%E2%80%93-part-ii/">quote from him</a>...</p> <blockquote><p>Professor Begemannâs claim that on universities it is not possible to present a different opinion about climate change in any case isnât true for the University of Amsterdam. In my professional environment so far there nobody has ever tried to correct me (a skeptic with an opinion based on strong arguments) In the past 10 years, neither did I ever have a problem with finding funding for research on the role of the sun on climate changes in the past. It is (also) because of this research I started having an alternative opinion on whatâs going on with the present-day climate: I still believe that natural variability is much more important than changes caused by mankind.</p></blockquote> <p><i>Tallbloke -- "...there's a nugget of gold in every pile of steaming horse manure."</i></p> <p>That's no way to talk about the Three Percenters.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934198&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HcebJx3tw3JwNmVuRoasYSB4M58Q1McNI-kK7bguy30"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934198">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934199" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296884638"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke,</p> <p>Where the science isn't settled is on the outcomes of climate change and not on our understanding of the main forcing agent of the current warming (i.e. Homo sapiens). This is where the denial community has been most dishonest - they have taken the uncertainty over the possible outcomes of warming and have applied it to try and muddy the waters over the main causes of warming. </p> <p>The fact that you know the names of a few ' qualified' contrarians tells you how many there really are in the scientific community. The fact is that a memo leaked from the American Petroleum Institute in the late 1990s claimed to be concerned that the anti-warming lobby at that time had to rely on the same few scientists over and over to spread their gospel of doubt. Their aim was to 'recruit' - whatever that means - new scientists to their cause to downplay AGW. Here we are more than a decade later and the same crop of names - Lindzen, Michaels, Balling, Idso's, Spencer, Baliunas, Soon, Singer etc - are still being wheeled out to present the ' alternate' view from the scientists, joined by the likes of Monckton. Many of these people aren't climate scientists at all. This should be clear evidence that the number of scientists who downplay AGW are indeed very small.</p> <p>Also, the fact that many of the so-called prominent skeptics have prostituted themselves out to libertarian think tanks or astroturf anti-environmental groups funded by polluting industries should tell you exactly where they are coming from.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934199&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="szG7AlyeBboVIO24oByBSQzkvye8KLGXyZRc4R-f9bs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934199">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934200" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296887526"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@49 our understanding of the main forcing agent of the current warming (i.e. Homo sapiens). </p> <p>This is assertion. Ok, I don't expect you to reprise all the arguments here, but if no-one here will address the uncertainty over TOA energy balance being several times the claimed co2 signal, we are still at impasse. I'm not really interested in the political accusations and rhetoric, because there isn't a possibility of objectivity there. I want correct assessment on the science, including estimates of uncertainty. And open discussion of them at the policy level.</p> <p>Perhaps I can interest you in this post on my blog:<br /><a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/working-out-where-the-energy-goes-part-2-peter-berenyi/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/working-out-where-the-energy-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934200&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wLqCulHhANDnxoxagsKTscQu49J8rVCH_x4sAgjGrmQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934200">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934201" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296888984"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke read what he wanted to read out of it. Schmidt made the right decision. Problem with deniers is they can't even read a simple email without using it to construct an entire fantasy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934201&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HpOH3cG5s8b-T4AKLfauNCXpmjWkyefGDNeO9mxghuQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934201">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934202" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296891788"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke, stop the dissembling, stop the excuses; you have been shown to be ethically bankrupt in this case.</p> <p>Grow a pair and apologise.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934202&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="e1mdmVfBmdeMG-fKzBYj6uj8SaCPW8gXKgytBm19UIY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ianash (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934202">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934203" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296892231"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Gavin gave me his permission. Something which has increased my respect for him if not for his scientific output." - Tall Bloke</p> <p>Gavin Schmidt must have sleepless nights knowing that someone who has trouble understanding a simple email, doesn't rate his scientific output.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934203&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7v2VcR_a1vflvC_qYrDDec0i5WbBVBIje8wqhnLNNO8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934203">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934204" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296892956"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So to sum up, the 'reconciliation conference' actually achieved getting Curry to accept a t-shirt depicting climate science in the trashcan, and falsely attributing a fabricated denialist chum phrase to a respected senior NASA scientist.</p> <p>Mission accomplished, eh boys?<br /> One wonders what you might cook up when you're not pretending to play nice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934204&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vDMAQwv-PNdA_JEqlcA5VAH4hxEP0Hi-jLbXoqINTio"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934204">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934205" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296895891"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>47<br /> @39 1) No 2) Gavin gave me his permission. Something which has increased my respect for him if not for his scientific output.<br /> = = = = = = = = = =<br /> 1) Were you authorized by the organizers to repeat (or really interpret publicly) Gavin's email? If so, I assume you can say who did it.<br /> = = = = = = = = = =<br /> I believe the question pertains to the conference. Did you have permission to discuss the contents of emails during the conference? Did you discuss the content of emails during the confrence? Can you describe the rules of confidentiality you were operating under?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934205&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Md4PqNGJGfN3dIFs_f6kx9bMkEZscubtP4nG6JDzO4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dorlomin (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934205">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934206" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296899454"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Any 'misunderstanding' on this is all Gavin Schmidt's fault over at Curry's blog;</p> <p>"Itâs beyond me how Gavin could have been so naive as to imagine that statement could not possibly be misconstrued as suggesting that thereâs nothing left to discuss in the science." - Peter317</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934206&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9DsPFPTI6LJd4VPIgsZZGS7D44n0I-9l69had3xtCz4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934206">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934207" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296899470"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke,</p> <p>Please tell me what credentials you possess in any scientific field. No need to be modest here. Let's see your prodigious output.</p> <p>As for Gavin, you ought to apologize immediately as others have said here. Gavin has tremendous integrity as a scientist and I would be livid if my views had been skewed in such as way. </p> <p>Lastly, IMHO most denialism is not aimed at the scientific community but at the lay public. Its a PR stunt, which has little, if anything to do with science, and it never has, any more than any other areas of science which are being distorted by a small coterie of people and organizations aimed at promoting a political agenda. That's why the , reconciliation' meeting in Lisbon was a massive farce. In my view its like those concerned about the loss of biodiversity meeting up with those intent on destroying wild nature for profit in order to reach a ' compromise' of how much destruction is permissable.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934207&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iN4P5unbtqhY58CniJe7iBH8OPlJNGZa-OtrS3LwepE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934207">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934208" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296905004"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So tallbloke denies being a crank:</p> <blockquote><p>Please don't characterize me as a 'crank', Iâm a qualified engineer with a degree in the history and philosophy of science. [...] Do you know the difference between quoting Einstein about doing experiments.</p></blockquote> <p>Well I suggest that he reads up on what a crank is. If he follows up on this suggestion then he will find himself looking in a mirror:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/05/crank_howto.php">http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/05/crank_howto.php</a></p> <p>Here are a few choice quotes from that article:</p> <blockquote><p>Step one: Develop a wacky idea.</p> <p>It is critical that your wacky idea must be something pretty extraordinary. A good crank shoots for the stars.</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p>The presentation of this idea is also important. Remember that really important people with really important ideas don't have time for grammar or spelling.</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p>if you must cite anything, either cite your own name or work, or that of another crank. If you're feeling bold cite some famous scientist, like Einstein</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p>It's also important during your research of this new idea, never to be worried about preserving the original intent of other authors you quote or cite. If any words they say can be construed to mean something else, that's ok too.</p></blockquote> <p>I can go on and on but one would think that the author of this piece is using tallbloke as their model.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934208&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4ynDsiOrJEKp0vf8aOi4rsjcEUxMcCuEmD7ksbPMGcY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Forrester (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934208">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934209" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296905111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I'd ask whether New Scientist wants this kind of indefensible behavior associated with their brand</p></blockquote> <p>I'd be <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/sunclipse/2008/09/the_emdrive_story_or_how_to_pr.php">surprised</a> if they <a href="http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/the-new-scientist-has-no-shame-again/">cared</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934209&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tBqgRf6XZCsCABErLVHMnaHtqMPKR3ppUL8H55Tzpow"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sunclipse.org" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Blake Stacey (not verified)</a> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934209">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934210" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296906506"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>TallBloke,</p> <p>If you did not notice, I offered you a sincere, unequivocal, unambiguous apology @28. I did so in the interests of reconciliation, and because I decided that I was perhaps overzealous. </p> <p>You attended a workshop with the alleged goal of 'reconciliation' and trying to reach a peace deal, yet your actions to date (and those of your peers, including Curry) are wholly inconsistent with that stated objective.</p> <p>Again in the interests of reconciliation and decency, please offer an unequivocal public apology to Dr. Schmidt. It is really not that difficult and given the gravity of the situation (it is not a "storm in a tea cup" as you falsely claim-- you maligned the character of a gentleman and reputable scientist) it is not much to ask.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934210&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JId9IH3XwSU1K7oGjTbevzJyLV-QUYnFPsx5PTeUbyU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934210">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934211" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296906982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Blake @59,</p> <p>That second link in particular was unbelievable. Something very odd is going on at NewScientist-- pandering and catering to the creationists and those in denial about climate change. NewScientist-- is that now become code for PostNormalScientist (PNS)?</p> <p>Maybe John Mashey and DC should start looking into the goings on at NewScientist......</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934211&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z4SyIjC1nfR8RnJburRDPu2A-RcAc6Ok8L-9dI-Bhlo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934211">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934212" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296909696"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;Perhaps I can interest you in this post on my blog: <a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/working-out-where-the-energy-goes-part-2-peter-berenyi/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/working-out-where-the-energy-…</a></p> <p>&gt;Posted by: Rog Tallbloke | February 5, 2011 7:32 AM</p> <p>Blog Science alert!</p> <p>Roger, don't you think were there anything to Miller's luminiferous aether bilge it would have long time shown up as a major glitch in satellite telemetry?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934212&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EsUEK8KjVQWymjYy-iRah4FVeXhaKjLgjCUAcQIuL2g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934212">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934213" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296910251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rog Tallbloke:</p> <p>&gt; &gt; Instead of actually doing experiments, you brandish your college degree and quote Einstein.</p> <p>&gt; Where can I read about the experiments you do?</p> <p><a href="http://iji2.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/surface-stations-redux/">Here's one</a>.</p> <p>&gt; Mine are published openly, honestly and without concern for those who will characterize it as 'crank science' because they don't understand it or have an agenda which makes them attack it.</p> <p>You didn't do any experiments, and even when publicizing other people's experiments, instead of outlining the experimental method and the experimental results, you blather on and on about conspiracies and misunderstood genius and Einstein.</p> <p>That's precisely the behaviour of a crank.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934213&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7bLvmEWuc2oomW5pIOllIocwN2-NP4upCjxeRIQ4Bm8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://climategate.tk/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="frank -- Decoding SwiftHack">frank -- Decod… (not verified)</a> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934213">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934214" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296911471"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks to lord_sidcup @ # 10 &amp; Holly Stick @ # 18 for clarifying that strange wordling. I was totally at a loss to decipher the <a href="http://fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=68502">raisin date</a> for "praisee"...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934214&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PGgf9BDkuAdOj7ONOqFJ2QM6UND2ShJiay5S56Gj08I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pierce R. Butler (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934214">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934215" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296911734"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re 61 ML.<br /> NS is probably trying to get readership numbers up. Times have been hard and the whips are probably being cracked. I'm not making any judgement, or giving an excuse, just suggesting a reason. Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last. A new editor will also bring their own style, and the current editor's an ex-tabloid science editor, Roger Highfield, former science editor at The Daily Telegraph,........Oh...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934215&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8-Uq1_TaWVftsWPocKAKZrshjJ5WRcu3OEq7fXF1ofc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934215">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934216" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296913372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Roger Highfield, former science editor at The Daily Telegraph,........Oh..."</p> <p>OFFs! Explains the reluctance to correct errors......if times are hard I would counsel that it would be unwise of Highfield to solicit an expensive lawsuit.....</p> <p><b>Someone in the UK needs to please take this further</b></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934216&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2ZLR9yfdbfv7rPdEUxp7ikEOn5A0cLA1b4oqdTuPAl4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934216">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934217" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296915345"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Isn't Gavin a climate modeler? I don't think that makes you a scientist any more than being a snake oil salesman makes you a doctor.</p> <p>For the more thoughtful among you, Chantal Valentine has quite a good article entitled [Torturing the statistics until they confess](<a href="http://www.fin24.com/Collective-Insight/Carousel/Torturing-the-statistics-until-they-confess-20090903">http://www.fin24.com/Collective-Insight/Carousel/Torturing-the-statisti…</a>)</p> <p>Mining a few quotes:</p> <p>"Despite the fact that the first thing drummed into any economics student is that "correlation does not mean causation" there are still too many instances where a correlation is presented as some kind of "proof".</p> <p>"The bottom line is that it's very easy to manipulate charts and numbers."</p> <p>Worth a read, if you start to feel uncomfortable you can always pop back here to exchange comfort statements.</p> <p>Anyway, Tallblokes paraphrasing of Gavin's reply seems about right from the email presented. I know it is lost on you, but the "Science is settled" bit says the same thing with a little added humour. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934217&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="K6-f0bbNU-9yiHq4_Ac8EMZh9BHzsHvmQdIEUPAS3qE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934217">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934218" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296915369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maybe "raison date" is a reference to the [summary weather](<a href="http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/sydney-heatwave-breaks-150yearold-record-20110205-1ah7o.html">http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/sydney-heatwave-breaks-15…</a>) we've been having here in Sydney.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934218&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3uuFk4NaBTxRRY88xuQIh2NlfqQ7eEMMLLGQm4hXkEM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gaz (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934218">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934219" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296915813"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW, stop trolling. And before trying to slander Dr. Schmidt, at least make the effort to first determine his qualifications. </p> <p>Juvenile quips by you do not trump facts...</p> <p>Anyhow, there troll I fed you-- now PFO.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934219&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BqlkJC9th15AstlOSXwrHbi2G7KqE6iC08S1rHzcw5g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934219">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934220" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296919758"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSWs arguments are infantile nonsense. MapleLeaf sums his post up well.</p> <p>In ecology and evolutionary ecology, predictive models are important tools in our research. The claim by GSW that a climate modeler is not a scientist is pure and utter drivel. Anyone making such a vacuous point does not deserve to be taken seriously.</p> <p>As for linking correlation and causation, the denialists/skeptics/contrarians are past masters at the art, Lomborg doing this *ad nauseum* in TSE.</p> <p>I don't know from under which rocks people like GSW crawl, but they ought to stay there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934220&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Exml9SpZeVBsB-nFO-36NXSwWRnRwtXhalpPjxEkls0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934220">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934221" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296921265"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Simple questions for tallbloke:</p> <p>1) What engineering degree do you hold? </p> <p>2) What technical/engineering work have you had during your employment? </p> <p>3) Why do you have comments closed on your blog regarding this "tempest in a teapot"?</p> <p>4) Are you willing to make a public statement (reply) concerning your understanding of the true value of pi? </p> <p>Stu</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934221&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qzQcpP_2X6RsB3N61MwLK-OXy-7Ft5Q6WTfycf_RqrI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sturat (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934221">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934222" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296924284"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's an interesting nugget re Pearce -</p> <p>About a quarter of the way into a <a href="http://www.wcc3.org/wcc3media/mp3/WCC3_PS3_ClimatePredictionScience.mp3">World Climate Conference 2009 session</a>, Mojib Latif gives a presentation on the problem of decadal variability (about 15 minutes worth - well worth it). You can follow along with the original slides <a href="http://www.wcc3.org/wcc3docs/pdf/PS3_latif.pdf">here</a>.</p> <p>Then compare your own impression of what Latif is saying to <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17742-worlds-climate-could-cool-first-warm-later.html">one</a> and then <a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327254.000-world-will-cool-for-the-next-decade.html">two</a> Pearce reports from NS.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934222&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_nmM16PACyTo8w8mC-AyastaBcEAhvnv8My-b9WHd3g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">bill (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934222">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934223" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296927276"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke complains that he's not a crank, unfortunately he also makes crank posts [like this](<a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/ozone-hole-hype/">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/ozone-hole-hype/</a>), with zero supporting data. Just someone's anon opinion.</p> <p>BTW Tallblock, I notice you neglected the points raised in [my post](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791</a>) in your response.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934223&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6zOK-bcjzEzMr47ryAihhuszwK_ZDfChMdVEe89BGOg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934223">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934224" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296927354"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Please donât characterize me as a âcrankâ, Iâm a qualified engineer with a degree in the history and philosophy of science.</p></blockquote> <p>Right. Because if you were a crank, you'd be the only engineer ever to be characterized as one. You engineers, you really crank out only the really crank-proof stuff. Yes, sir. No cranks have ever been engineers. Nope. Not a one. Engineering is a crank-free field.</p> <p>Oh, by the way. Have you gotten around to signing the "Dissent from Darwin"? That's quite popular with the other "not a crank" engineers, I think. It's a very good way to tell the world that you're an engineer and therefore not a crank.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934224&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yjTgcReAfE4OMOkcYIzZiX9P-RA5qekF00zFsae-mxg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pough (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934224">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934225" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296931902"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cross-posted from Tamino's:</p> <p>"So when was Tallbloke telling the truth First he claimed that he told Pearce about the email. Now it comes to light that Tallbloke gave Pearce the email and Pearce then (allegedly) read the email to McKitrick and McIntyre (and others?).</p> <p>This revelation, IMHO, makes tallkbloke a liar, and irresponsible to boot; and second reflects even more poorly on Pearce than beforeâ he (allegedly) read the email and still completely misrepresented what he said and then made a generalization about the science being âsettledâ applying to mainstream climate scientists. Pearce has a lot to answer for and should be hauled before a press counsel or similar professional association.</p> <p>And Lucia (and Curry it seems) thinks this is normal behaviour? Well maybe in the land of denial and conspiracy and nuttiness and a land which is morally bankrupt, but not in the real world.</p> <p>How much did this farce cost the organizers?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934225&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vt3H2PWg6LSd64SaKV4zk9gdmfhQEovdgWZC7UtWc7w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934225">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934226" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296932196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Always the engineers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934226&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0XVH_WMJrPW-GaI6eKETVhGGky2NSAUJRTVnvOsdLk0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934226">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934227" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296932298"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As painful as it is go over to JC's place to read the sheer lunacy of the denialists that frequent her place. </p> <p>Don't let Judith tap dance her way out of this one.....she is trying hard though.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934227&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gpI2zLUPVAUxiKhsCb-An6jjFvWPMPe75ykvP_13QR8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934227">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934228" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296932914"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@MapleLeaf #76</p> <p>"So when was Tallbloke telling the truth First he claimed that he told Pearce about the email. Now it comes to light that Tallbloke gave Pearce the email and Pearce then (allegedly) read the email to McKitrick and McIntyre (and others?)"</p> <p>So What?</p> <p>A stab in the dark - do you sometimes participate in blogs using the id 'onthefence' the pure clarity of the thought process is unmistakable.</p> <p>As for;</p> <p>"the land of denial and conspiracy and nuttiness"</p> <p>I think you made it there, all on your own..</p> <p>geez</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934228&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CYp75OpbFb0Kz14bJ3X8WMQhfqIr5fAbvnPFk_q1UII"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934228">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934229" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296933273"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>A stab in the dark - do you sometimes participate in blogs using the id 'onthefence' the pure clarity of the thought process is unmistakable.</p></blockquote> <p>Is the incorrect punctuation in a run-on sentence a purposeful satire?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934229&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="03isLGFZX_KVh0RfFNDdAhYaocGnFz0Rsl48yWZw9M4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pough (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934229">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934230" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296933480"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#80</p> <p>Don't know.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934230&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rw67MuRtUChEqxHloqxqxBdteiNAwh76cOr8DfU4Bg0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934230">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934231" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296933770"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pough...DFTT. The troll is also wrong @79.</p> <p>Funny how contrarians and denialists and "skeptics" in the AGW "debate" are so unconcerned about facts and have propensity to give lies, distortion and misinformation free pass. </p> <p>Goping by events at Climate Etc. and Lisbon, Curry et al. could not organize a piss-up in a brewery. Sarc on.. Yes, please do let us trust you and your cohorts with our future...sarc off.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934231&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uvZPpsyotZHkR1cooocQOP_A2AHasU93t4slysxdGSs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934231">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934232" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296934148"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>@ pough<br /> It's a very good way to tell the world that you're an engineer and therefore not a crank.</p></blockquote> <p>Perhaps he'd prefer "crackpot". He's a fan of reviving the aether theory, you know, so maybe it suits him better.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934232&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="60GZw46XrvlnJj1AuV22rNRVQk1cHZuyYp1v6Rz6Ymw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dan L. (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934232">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934233" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296934429"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW -- "A stab in the dark - do you sometimes participate in blogs using the id 'onthefence'..."</p> <p>Curious. Have we met at CiF, GSW?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934233&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WeEkH5ZGCNvCtvfnQbwRu_p0ZE7UcO8tinX7fn8Qmb8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934233">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934234" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296934758"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re: #77<br /> "Always the engineers."</p> <p>Please, that is not a useful comment, especially for those of us who are or have been engineers. Are there any studies that show engineers (in general) are more likely than others to have these issues?</p> <p>Tallbloke says:<br /> "Iâm a qualified engineer with a degree in the history and philosophy of science."</p> <p>That's a slightly odd background for most types of engineers, but then engineer is a vague term, and these days he appears to be a <a href="http://www.education.leeds.ac.uk/people/staff.php?staff=141">Web Content Editor</a>.</p> <p>There is, of course, nothing wrong with that role, and the website certainly looks fine. However, it is not instantly obvious why that alone makes someone especially relevant to this effort. Perhaps Tallbloke can explain more as to the type of engineer he was and how that is relevant. </p> <p>It's been 15 years since I visited Leeds U to do a lecture, but it seems to have a substantial climate-relevant school:<br /><a href="http://www.environment.leeds.ac.uk/see">http://www.environment.leeds.ac.uk/see</a> with numerous relevant public lectures:<br /><a href="http://see.leeds.ac.uk/typo3/news/calendar">http://see.leeds.ac.uk/typo3/news/calendar</a></p> <p>Maybe he attends these often and interacts frequently with the faculty there, a method by which a person can actually gain useful knowledge without the specific training.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934234&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yeCkvaHMaoKO290o7d9loRh07beVlaKO0tomZ27Hh9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934234">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934235" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296934887"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JBowers</p> <p>Yes, never ventured this far before. Recognized your name - were not on the same side, but reassuring to see you here also ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934235&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_NfYNPsbXNyQ1bKx2hDL2ocj8AUl5FtJ0esm-OQvGOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934235">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934236" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296937575"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>John Mahesy, there haven't been any studies to my knowledge, however this website has been plagued by sceptical engineers in the past, and the Oregon Petition is stuffed with them. Of course I'm not saying *all* engineers are deniers, however in my experience a large number of them lean that way often using their engineering credentials as some kind of proof they are scientifically adept.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934236&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S-vBRJYJ0OB8qkPbZ7--YL2BUIB4YuMZwZkCexV78lc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934236">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934237" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296937687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;So What?</p> <p>And so GSW sums up his entire attitude towards science that doesn't fit his political beliefs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934237&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eOQwfD0GcWn4HPBXyhYisg8ASPAQb1wYxbDSD_iGS9s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934237">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934238" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296940212"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> Hey Lotharsson, welcome back! You were missed. </p></blockquote> <p>Thanks jakerman! RL has been demanding for a while :-( I skimmed the threads here every now and then and it seemed like everything was going rather well without me ;-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934238&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="749WKbxqFPVOrxYn7qfxLWbsBo16S1et_5qkQ3M11VI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lotharsson (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934238">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934239" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296941077"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> Of course I'm not saying all engineers are deniers, however in my experience a large number of them lean that way often using their engineering credentials as some kind of proof they are scientifically adept. </p></blockquote> <p>I'm an engineer (although I have a Ph.D. which puts me in a minority of engineers). </p> <p>And yes, in my experience it's not entirely uncommon to see a 'skeptic' tout their engineering degree <b>as if</b> it were a scientific credential. I suspect this is because either (a) they are <b>actually</b> clueless enough to think this to be true, or (b) it works on the rubes who (generally through no fault of their own) don't know the difference.</p> <p>And this degree touting is usually coupled with at least a hint of the fallacy that "my credentials mean I'm right".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934239&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3-7rPB4P0GjD_rJXRzEAZM_ocDHERRfGRl14xIdJlxI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lotharsson (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934239">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934240" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296941358"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>John:<br /> Please think hard about this.</p> <p>Of course there are engineers. I live in Silicon Valley and know lots of them.</p> <p>But I've also seen "I'm a research scientist XXX" and sometimes financial modeling types and sometimes high school math teachers.</p> <p>Now, you are anonymous so have no reputation to lose.<br /> But I am as unimpressed by anecdotal evidence about engineers as I am about "It was cold in these 3 places, so AGW can't be true."</p> <p>To make a meaningful statement, you need to look at the % of population and other attributes. Perhaps, go look up population numbers of various types of engineers versus other occupations and report back. Finally, we still have no evidence that Tallbloke is an engineer other than his comment, and in fact, many people claiming to be engineers on blog posts may well not be.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934240&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="n3kiGA7l4o-R9IGbD5GDhAlqcXlnsiw4aMueqzc7wjw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934240">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934241" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296943562"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>John, even if I wasn't anonymous I wouldn't have any reputation to lose. I see your point, but I'm not claiming any other evidence besides my own experiences here and on the many climate blogs I read. Whether they really are engineers or not, I certainly see that card being played a lot - including by our own denier creationist senator Steve "As An Engineer I'm Taught To Look At Both Sides Of The Story" Fielding. </p> <p>A quick Google of Watts Up With That using the search term "engineer" brings nearly 3,000 hits, many from people claiming to be engineers. Are there be that many claiming to be teachers or chefs? Not even close. </p> <p>Is there a higher proportion of engineers who deny global warming? Or do engineers use their profession to try and profess some expertise more than other professions? I don't know, but I'd be interested in finding out. I know it's something we've discussed here before. All I can do is use my instincts and unimpressive anecdotal research to say "possibly".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934241&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lNPmr3_J5zvk-d7qhbSWuf6O3Vdkw8yKxwfmwYjDfvI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934241">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934242" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296944412"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>**Update 3:**<br /> [Steve McIntyre](<a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-38454">http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-par…</a>):</p> <p>&gt;I can confirm that Fred Pearce read Gavin's email to the organizers declining the invitation to the conference, because I (by chance) happened to be sitting with Pearce when he was provided with a copy of Gavin's email and observed him reading it carefully.</p> <p>[tallbloke](<a href="http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-part-iv/#comment-38573">http://judithcurry.com/2011/02/04/lisbon-workshop-on-reconciliation-par…</a>)</p> <p>&gt;I got Fred to read it out loud to Steve and Ross. So he couldn't make notes at the same time. And we had a couple of beers, which may be why he didn't remember it very clearly later.</p> <p>Compare with his earlier comment "to set the record straight"</p> <p>&gt;when I was asked one evening in Lisbon why certain people weren't there I gave a quick praisee, including a brief reference to Gavin's response. This made it's way to Fred, hence the reference in his blog piece reporting on the conference.</p> <p>Deceitful, isn't he?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934242&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kwCU0tRNabOzXLrh9kVwoXOIjDvzwEOO26SLml0EtvA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tim Lambert (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934242">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934243" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296947218"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Guess who has taken up the story? Over at [Bolt-world](<a href="http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/warmist_scientist_dodges_debate_and_luckily_for_him/">http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comme…</a>) he claims "warmist" scientists are dodging the debate and, </p> <p>&gt;Schmidt is either blinded by hate ... or scared of debate.</p> <p>A word of warning: Bolt's post and the comments section are full of such complete and utter nonsense that it will seriously do your head in if you spend any length of time reading them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934243&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0irrXL3qeSA6WFuEx6y8Jrma_z4Kc0rk_KGzQFlPPqY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shinsko (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934243">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934244" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296948851"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Is there a higher proportion of engineers who deny global warming? Or do engineers use their profession to try and profess some expertise more than other professions</p></blockquote> <p>Same is seen in creation science debates ...</p> <p>Also, as a software engineer with a computer science background, I understand that I'm not *really* an engineer (nor scientist). The field (the trivial subset of discreet mathematics that leads to computer science and software engineering) isn't easily pegged (and isn't as trivial as the mathematician who so labeled it back in the late 1970s) ... </p> <p>Mashey understands that, I'm sure. Before suggesting that engineers are no less likely to be science denialists than scientists themselves, it might be better to qualify who you mean by the word "engineer".</p> <p>They come in many flavors ...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934244&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="J3JgChznq9YAWyNSqcziKhkCMNULFuk6OVQ1XppudE8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934244">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934245" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296949042"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Guess who has taken up the story? Over at Bolt-world he claims "warmist" scientists are dodging the debate</p></blockquote> <p>Elsewhere (Curry's, I think), I pointed out that the denialsphere seems to think that Gavin, once invited, was *obligated* to attend the conference, and in order to get out of that obligation he had to lie about climate denialism, or some such crap.</p> <p>There seems to be no appreciation that, in the normal world, an invitation is not an order ...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934245&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ejF3Rd0a7CUkJS5Ii8D8ItYMbOpxjUpt_rTvVfxH45g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934245">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934246" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296951721"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tim @93,</p> <p>Thanks for doing that-- that is exactly what I suggested Eli do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934246&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9NDgYtG3T7xBf1Vs86g5saNprAlru3wmnIYAXu3N0RY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934246">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934247" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296951830"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Some comments from the Bolt post:</p> <p>&gt;Just as bad, is saying SCEPTICS have politicised this? WTF!!!!, AGW has been THE very vehicle the left has used to obtain money and political power, a platform to exert their influence and to engineer society to suit their agenda. </p> <p>WTF!!!! indeed.</p> <p>&gt;These Alarmists are on the payroll of government agencies, all which have a lot more money than any big business skeptics are accused of being on the payroll of </p> <p>&gt;LAD, I disagree that it is about money, at least for the scientists. What scientists really crave is recognition and influence. AGW has raised the warmists from small-to-middling researchers into the most important scientists in the world (some would say the most important people) . The money means something but it is not the central driver. </p> <p>&gt;Well considering these morons have been wrong on everything and they are spraying the western world with chemicals its clear to see the con [link to chemtrails video removed for your sanity]</p> <p>&gt;Imagine Bob Brown allowing a free debate on climate change (or nearly any other subject for that matter) or Julia Gillard allowing free debates on climate change and the NBN or Tony Windsor on climate change, the NBN and the Murray Darling. And the list goes on. </p> <p>Sometimes I forget Bob Brown is the true mastermind behind this ruse. Now he's stifling debate!</p> <p>&gt;As man-made CO2 emissions are about 3% of all CO2 in the earthâs atmosphere i.e. 11ppm and the rest (nitrogen, oxygen etc.)comprises 999,989ppm, can someone please explain how this insignificant amount of man-made CO2 emissions caused Cyclone Yasi?.<br /> These numbers indicate a probability of around 1 in 100,000, so how certain is the âsettledâ science?. </p> <p>what</p> <p>&gt;This all started as a clumsy attempt by the United Nation to get us off fossil fuels. Trouble is the climate is not playing the game they hoped. More and more climate scientists are deserting the ship. It is only the unthinking unquestioning green politicians and their blind followers who think we just have to wave a magic wand and we can have the utopia they crave. </p> <p>what</p> <p>&gt;I am a great supporter of Andrew and am worried that he has not confronted this article head on the way he does most other pieces that directly or indirectly attack him or his views. </p> <p>Yes Andrew tell us what to think and restore our world view.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934247&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="G_1XltCAX35_b7SdRUxuaoDu4-NLamozkTmWps19-d8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934247">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934248" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296954761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Has Pearce stuck his head up yet?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934248&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6400AsVbH4dBSJfRmyhmOJoXgFLgtQfP_Bf4LOFgvRw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934248">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934249" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296957449"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Crap.</p> <p>Just fell victim to the multiple tabs syndrome.</p> <p>[Insert post here](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/the_australians_war_on_science_60.php#comment-3222956">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/the_australians_war_on_science_…</a>).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934249&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eU2OIfBiIw43hpMx2cSBdeN7y11roo7KRK8TziARZVs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934249">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934250" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296958310"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cross post [from Tamino's](<a href="http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/not-a-misquote-a-nonquote/#comment-48058">http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/not-a-misquote-a-nonquote/#comme…</a>),</p> <p>&gt;Why did tallbloke have an email that GS presumably sent to the conference organizers?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934250&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cFiLOWjIpuEGACmy-VaqVib7-LZ8uW7L78TIqRjtzFI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934250">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934251" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296958593"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jakerman - conspiracy! Seriously though, it should be obvious to everyone that the conference was a trap. If scientists turn up, the sceptics and their crackpot theories are legitimised. If not, it's proof that scientists are scared of debate. It's lose-lose in the eyes of the denialist media either way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934251&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ofAcp_hQnC0ASNlkuXUx2ujoDIMi08uihFnG7SZnAqk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934251">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934252" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296962761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I can confirm that Fred Pearce read Gavin's email to the organizers declining the invitation to the conference, because I (by chance) happened to be sitting with Pearce when he was provided with a copy of Gavin's email and observed him reading it carefully."</p> <p>Is this necessarily the case, or is McI, realising that the anonymous blogger known as Tallbloke* is now a liability to the cause, simultaneously cutting him loose and sacrificing him to the AGW lions as a diversion?</p> <p>*Anyone know what Watts has to say about Tallblokes anonymity? After all I hear he's hot on that sort of thing at his place.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934252&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3exl8rytnXCRYLPVQBKe5oX2QUgr1FKzYNI7Chd2gRk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Quiet Waters (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934252">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934253" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296968069"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Another way of looking at it was Tallbloke was trying to take the heat off of Fred Pearce...</p> <p>It looks like Fred DID read the email. and paraphrased it into 'the science is settled'. I think he probably regrets it now, don't you.. </p> <p>Why attack TallBloke - FRED is a grown up journalist, he wrote the words, fully aware of how it would be perceived.<br /> He could have commented on Gavins email in many other ways.</p> <p>I don't know if you are all aware of this, but attacking Fred Pearce, appears to a sceptic like me thet the pro AGW crowd are 'turning on each other'</p> <p>Fred writes for the Guardian the most PRO AGW paper in the UK, George Monbiot and the Guardian have no less than 2 Deniars Halls of Shame.</p> <p>Pearcegate, is a massive own goal.</p> <p>A flip comment that could have been ignored, yurned into something else that actually shows up the worst in the pro-blogosphere.. If you can't keep Fred Pearce onside and the Guardian.. what next, disown Roger Harrabin, Roger Black (oh Romm did that allready)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934253&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="F7n201m84oMB-SPPYaaHDQnN4J4-DG8c92WIfDYYZj8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934253">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934254" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296969531"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry, you really don't get it. Pearce is not excused if he merely took Tallbloke's words as accurate. Nor is Tallbloke excused for mangling Schmidt's comments.</p> <p>And unlike some others, many here value factual accuracy higher than being part of a camp. Nor are most pro-AGW: we really do NOT want AGW to be correct, but know that nature has a knack of not caring about what we want.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934254&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ARw-seoBHDzNHq0i7Lt-thOfalhDyvjofndRVZEJszg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934254">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934255" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296970529"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm not talking about any excuses..</p> <p>Fred read them for himslef, thus he knows what was said by Gavin.. Thus he choose to right them and will have to live with them</p> <p>I wonder if this will come up at his next little conference...</p> <p>Follow the link to the invitation at Bishop Hill (I don't know if Deltoid allows direct links to pdf files)</p> <p>Carbonumdrums.<br /><a href="http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/2/5/carbonundrums.html">http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/2/5/carbonundrums.html</a></p> <p>Panellists include Fiona Fox, Bob Ward, Roger Harrabin, Fred Pearce, Naomi Oreskes and Rasmus Benestad.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934255&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="osvsjrnnlybSSoczKAzm3q1iIawXCTfBBPbkrSU3mnY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934255">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934256" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296970586"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"I don't know if you are all aware of this, but attacking Fred Pearce, appears to a sceptic like me thet the pro AGW crowd are 'turning on each other'"</p></blockquote> <p>That's pretty silly Barry. What's this imaginary "pro-AGW" crowd? Scientists and indeed most rational people choose to address the evidence (given the chance) and make informed and honest interpretations. Pearce used to make pretty reliable, informative and readable accounts of scientific topics. We can see objectively that he chooses occasionally to misepresent issues on climate science these days (New Scientist seems to find this acceptable...one of the reasons we stopped our subscription some time ago). </p> <p>It's unfortunate, but not really a big deal. If someone chooses to misrepresent things in a rather blatant manner, we should recognise and point that out. But there's no sense in which most of us consider journalists or other commentators/interpreters are some sort of "spokesperson" for what you seem to consider is a "crowd". </p> <p>Anyone that tells the truth and represents the evidence honestly is fine by me. Isn't that the bottom line? Pearce (and this curious "tallbloke" person) seem to have different standards...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934256&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i_GruGi83FC6EbP7Mvqh3_XkZ10XV2xFI-yJ7qLDSWw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chris (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934256">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934257" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296971097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Guardian environment journalists, I would describe as the Pro AGW crowd, and people like Baroness Worthington (who helped write the climate change act) she studied English.</p> <p>my view is that this may turn a molehill into a mountain..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934257&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Tgu9unGZ7ErgX0hvc122V637PNc-m5tlfJ3LwmpfqcY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934257">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934258" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296974111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry is full of you-know-what.</p> <p>The Guardian is hardly ' pro-AGW'. Like most of the corporate msm, they may talk a lot about the scientific evidence underpinning the current warming, but they say very little about what should be done about it. This is because they do not want to offend (e.g. ' drive off') their corporate advertisers or offend their corporate owners. This is hardly any different from any of the other mainstream outlets, which juxtapose articles warning of the dangers of climate change with advertisements for cheap flights to some exotic destinations or for luxurious cars or SUVs. Its utter hypocrisy but it characterizes the msm very well. David Cromwell at MediaLens has discussed this issue at length many times.</p> <p>As for those arguing that the evidence for warming are 'turning on each other', this is ridiculous. The empirical evidence for AGW is growing every year, forcing the denialist camp into more and more desperate tactics. As I have said before, 20 years ago AGW was a 'doomsday myth' according to the denialists; as more evidence came in then it suddenly became 'natural' (e.g. solar forcing) or unexceptional (e.g. MWP) in historical terms; wait for a few more years and the denialist crowd will be vanquished entirely but then they will claim that although the warming is anthropogenic, by then it will be too late for mitigation so we will just have to adapt. We are already headed towards this scenario. In every instance the status quo is retained.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934258&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OExenHNdSiOUuykNoM4IKgUDk8TTob9ZFklMN7zx9pE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934258">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934259" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296975362"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Barry Woods](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3223342">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3223342</a>).</p> <p>Read this carefully and think slowly...</p> <p>A fellow - let's call him Toby - opens a tin of kerosene and splashes it all over a house. His mate who, for argument's sake, we'll call Percy, lights a match and throws it on the kerosene.</p> <p>Which one is the arsonist?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934259&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hMAbi7AxE5jd13FD1WEPcNfyfE7ZVpuglL2bEqVrTYY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934259">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934260" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296975439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*The Guardian environment journalists, I would describe as the Pro AGW crowd*</p> <p>Who cares what label you try to bestow on Pearce Barry?</p> <p>I call it Fred Pearce practicing bad journalism and getting called out on that. And I call out your attempt at hand-waving.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934260&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sdcv7IiAWhmhSUL0AB1ZyU_AJI_LaCEzgr1-B7T5gX8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934260">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934261" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296976438"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maybe the Guardian as a whole..</p> <p>Yet, I'm thinking of the Guardian Environment team, the guardian invested heavily in the environment section a few years ago.. Surley you qould agree that they are pro-AGW?</p> <p>if only relative to all the other UK MSM media..</p> <p>Damian Carrington, (environment editor) even thought the 10:10 'no pressure' video was a good idea. </p> <p>If the Guardian ever back away from AGW, then the rest of the UK MSM will follow.(and the BBC)</p> <p>I was surprised to see this article today, very critical of windfarms, even quoting the Daily Mail!<br /><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/04/wind-farms-nimbyism">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/04/wind-farms-nimbyism</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934261&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9c_yJ9gXdqt4jSMD_WZjjHo4SBqhQKzRL5Yn6OC1hQ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934261">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934262" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296977044"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@79 "Simple questions for tallbloke:<br /> 1) What engineering degree do you hold?<br /> 2) What technical/engineering work have you had during your employment?<br /> 3) Why do you have comments closed on your blog regarding this "tempest in a teapot"?<br /> 4) Are you willing to make a public statement (reply) concerning your understanding of the true value of pi?<br /> Stu"</p> <p>1) My degree is in History and Philosophy of science. I studied this subject after I was forced to take a break from engineering due to an injury. My engineering qualification is HNC-HND </p> <p>2) Working in the engineering industry I gained experience in the following fields relevant to study of Earth's climate systems in addition to my theoretical learning:<br /> Metrology<br /> Fluid dynamics<br /> Mechanical design<br /> Stats analysis<br /> Stress and shear calculation<br /> Materials science and testing<br /> Vibration and resonance damping and control</p> <p>I machined the core casting for the CERN particle accelerator with a five axis CNC. And a swine of a job it was. </p> <p>3) I stated that on the post.</p> <p>4) Sure, what would you like me to say? DO you think I'd have been able to do the CERN job without knowing it correctly? :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934262&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bLZrKvFBNgGu88imZJF7CKI_4b2UYkpssF9eHsg2QSU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934262">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934263" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296977694"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I did wonder why people seemed to be taking tallbloke's word for it that he was the source.</p> <p>Basically, we are back where we were - Fred Pearce has descended into cruddy journalism, tallbloke is a non-entity, and Barry Woods is busy trying to distract.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934263&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NunmmgzFRti_CrVVDEaAQHi9aQscXe_hojr_SYmMfDA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lord_sidcup (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934263">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934264" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296979027"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Harvey<br /> @Jakerman</p> <p>I think you will find that referring to the Guardian as 'pro AGW' is not controversial. The 'Team' is fairly one sided - Randerson,Moonbat,Carrington, Hickman and even the much criticised Pearce. </p> <p>Pearce has been peddling Climate Alarmism for years, publishing numerous books on the subject.</p> <p>e.g. The Last Generation: How Nature Will Take Her Revenge For Climate Change.</p> <p>How idiotically extreme does the discussion have to get for someone like Pearce to be turned on as somehow betraying "the cause", going "native", or in the language of 1984 "Becoming an agent of McIntyre". </p> <p>The Guardian Environment Network is pretty one sided; The usual propaganda sites, Realclimate, skepticalscience, even 10:10(?)</p> <p>Don't spout rubbish about "corporate msm" the Guardian has bought into this, hook, line and sinker.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934264&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lA9BGYnuRT5gdnNlWsmME6mcUkeBUqe0i9ANxMsqAaU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934264">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934265" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296980839"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The term 'pro AGW' is basically meaningless, like 'pro gravity'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934265&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CkVyZCqXxNmyikcLYMaLnDKwQKkRjCbwnzdyihRQjuw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zoot (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934265">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934266" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296984450"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW,</p> <p>You are as full of it as Barry Woods. But this is hardly surprising since you claimed that mathematical modelers are not scientists. Only a Dunning-Kruger disciple could make such a fatuous remark. All this shows is that you aren't a scientist, either.</p> <p>The Guardian is only reporting on the state-of-the-art with respect to the huge amount of empirical evidence in support of the human fingerprint on the current warming. In this respect at least they are being intellectually honest, which can hardly be said of the right-wing media which routinely distort science in promotion of a brazenly de-regulatory agenda. This is why the corporate media - especially on the political right - are full of pundits who are self-confessed 'interpreters of interpretations'. However, supporting the evidence for AGW is as far as the msm on the left goes - when it comes to saying that much of it is driven by overconsumption amongst the privileged few in the developed world, or suggesting that changes are necessary in ongoing policies in an attempt to deal with the looming environmental and social consequences, they are suddenly mute. </p> <p>Before you make yourself look more silly than you already have, I suggest you learn a little bit about who funds the msm including the Guardian. Learn a little about the workings of the corporate media before wading in here with lame remarks that show you know nothing about it.</p> <p>Lastly, your claim that Realclimate is a 'propaganda' site reveals your gross scientific illiteracy. In your view, the thousands of peer-reviewed articles published in the pages of the most rigid journals must all also be scientific 'propaganda', whereas anything you read from wretched sites like WUWT or Morano's, or the Idso's, et al. is probably 'sound science'. This shows that your opinions are weighted more through a political ideology than by scientific facts. But, as I have said, the denial lobby does not target the scientific community with their nonsense but are only interested in reaching a lay audience who are anxious to maintain the status quo. I must hand it to the denial lobby though: with an infinite amount of corporate money sloshing around in their PR fund bucket, they have been immensely successful, at creating controversy where there is broad (&gt; 90%) consensus, and especially amongst the climate and Earth scientists doing the actual research. The denial lobby has scraped together a loose band of mostly pseudo-scientists, most of them retired or who haven't published much in the empirical literature, and have managed to create the impression that what we know about the human impact on the global climate is 'controversial'. Its a remarkable achievement given that the weight of empirical evidence lies on the other side.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934266&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pn-PDb8c8-HJMoYHRbiBC6KU8B-ZNZhtbEzGxMvFQWQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934266">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934267" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296985185"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Two examples of the 'left-wing' media in the UK with respect to climate change from ML:</p> <p>First, an [exchange with George Monbiot](<a href="http://www.medialens.org/alerts/07/070704_melting_ice_sheets.php">http://www.medialens.org/alerts/07/070704_melting_ice_sheets.php</a>)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934267&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BMgwf4nXTIzaowhGlWBL8OZRQoF60B0vzjW8iilW5CI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934267">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934268" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296985237"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jeff</p> <p>Meaningless "Comfort Statements" I think, or late stage paranoia - Take your pick! ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934268&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j7BiQ5BtaMFLXUGx38qvKksWV7WZH1LAraAEDzqENdY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934268">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934269" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296985321"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Second link:](<a href="http://www.medialens.org/alerts/05/051213_insane_society_climate_change.php">http://www.medialens.org/alerts/05/051213_insane_society_climate_change…</a>)</p> <p>(See also, 'Guardians of Power' by David Edwards and David Cromwell (2006).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934269&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8BB2RwHOMMEylIu1B2q5H7jQ0nnEpR6GNv2Og-WpZ1s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934269">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934270" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296985521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Who's the arsonist](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3223617">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3223617</a>), Barry Woods?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934270&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OrFLGOEzP4jF3t2w3n9cEdDUoXwu7lyOBuZ-TF-luNs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934270">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934271" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296985672"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW says, "Meaningless "Comfort Statements" I think, or late stage paranoia".</p> <p>This sounds like a good self-description of yourself. I still want to know how many peer-reviewed journals you regularly read and if you are a professional scientist in any field. </p> <p>My guess is 'very few' (or none) and 'not'. Instead, my guess is that you are another armchair expert who relies on the usual sources (WUWT, C02.corg, Morano, CA etc.) for their 'informed' discussion (if one can call it that). </p> <p>I am glad to see people you and Barry contribute your useless musings here, though. It shows how much the 'other side' depends on know-nothing libertarians for their support.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934271&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UnzKR2AIeKwq8HM5eFXbv2HJWxbZUH-vUT5MhQzZZCA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934271">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934272" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296986025"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jeff</p> <p>Thanks for the clarification Jeff - I'm going for late stage paranoia.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934272&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jPrrlH1Jgs_luQjLr3QrehMV5tmmvXji2hoy9DbHksk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934272">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934273" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296988499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW,</p> <p>The fact that you characterize the best understanding of the science as 'pro-AGW' and represent it as a difference of opinion between journalists, indicates you couldn't give a bloody fuck about the science and would rather ignore it in favor of your own narcissistic political beliefs. </p> <p>Here's a clue; Nature doesn't negotiate, nor take into account popular opinion polls. On one 'side' of this 'debate' we have four hundred years of progressively refined objective understanding of how the natural world works, and on the other 'side', Mr. Potato Head. You've made your choice. You will have to live with it. Don't expect much sympathy when time reveals you to be a blinkered idiot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934273&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4kuZvN-T6eOaHQ4HEdBVKdYFktPY0g9BGqAbAlm4j5Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934273">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934274" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296988530"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[GSW said:](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3224343">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3224343</a>) <i>"Thanks for the clarification Jeff - I'm going for late stage paranoia".</i></p> <p>Keep at it GSW, you're nearly there already.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934274&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_UYsTyihGUEm3b7tGIKPZMmlT-_RNCDHYjtdM2T37po"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934274">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934275" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296989170"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>tallbloke is a double ether crank, he believes in some thing that was discredited oooh so long ago and from his insane postings and other beliefs he must have sniffed some ether at some time. Real scientists will tell you that solvent is not good for neurons.</p> <p>The fact that he would have us believe that they would let anyone with a "degree in History and Philosophy of Science" anywhere near such a complicated effort as a piece of the CERN project tells me a lot about his self deception.</p> <p>Tallbloke, do you actually mean "I turned on the CNC machine in the morning and turned it off at night and kept it clean for the real engineers and scientists"?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934275&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CVXK35N0Pde1qW6Y6VXoKoERDHI5_mTmzBPDDrZTlXE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Forrester (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934275">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934276" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296990044"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>121 strange analogy..</p> <p>Personally I would think both the petrol thrower and match lighter were both rather unpleasant people to know... and bot at fault.. though, the match thrower is slightly more the 'nutter'</p> <p>Crucify Fred all that you will.. He is NOT on my side... </p> <p>I'll sit back and watch, as you eat your own...<br /> Without the media, the CAGW delusion will fade away.</p> <p>You have done wonders in helping sceptics, by alienating Fred this way.. Gavin could just have laughed and said, silly fred, I said this.. and showed the email...</p> <p>Fred if you noticed, felt able to call many in attendance cranks!!!</p> <p>Now, we have an example of the hysteria of the AGW crowd..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934276&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ws7iM6C34HDvlf9VawhIYeQaYPzheBDZ6NmWKfWFE5U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">barry woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934276">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934277" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296990377"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Seems to me the lesson here is:</p> <p>Guys who can't even keep straight which of them said or read what, while they were at dinner together last week, will never "put to rest any skeptical debate about the basic physics of gaseous infrared radiative transfer." </p> <p>And it's pointless for JC to keep trying with them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934277&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BdVesWAqXih_SoLdSuiLIkwUjL4WYUAfbE3cgS1ATwQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://hankroberts.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Hank Roberts (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934277">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934278" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296991767"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re. 115 GSW -- "The Guardian Environment Network is pretty one sided; The usual propaganda sites, Realclimate, skepticalscience, even 10:10(?)"</p> <p>Climate Progress and Skeptical Science as well, now. Good ol' Grauniad ;)</p> <p>Even though GSW and I are in complete opposition at the Guardin, I actually agree with him to a degree about the Guardian, and I don't see that as a criticism of the Guardian, either. In the UK it basically goes: Guardian and Independent on one side, as a counter to the Telegraph, Mail and Express (and Times I suppose). Both Mobiot and Pearce have been critical of Jones and CRU, although FP far more. This is more to do with the high value they hold on FOIA, more so in Monbiot's case, due to FOIA exposing government corruption. Pearce doesn't actually seem to be too involved with the Guardian these days.</p> <p>Fair comment, GSW? (does your CIF nickname begin with N or C, by any chance?)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934278&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FI2OHOXdeh4-UsOWghqnkLghjyTCA1wYLBJh90P0B-Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934278">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934279" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296993268"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>barry woods:</p> <blockquote><p>Without the media, the CAGW delusion will fade away</p></blockquote> <p>and the earth's surface temperature will sink back to the little ice age temperatures the astronomical forcing says it should be.</p> <p>Promises, promises.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934279&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_-i7jRVcZJnujKNPylPAw8NqPn_AfY1nFrmm1IGPBE0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934279">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934280" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296993439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JBowers #128</p> <p>Fair comment JB, thanks.</p> <p>and No on CiF my nickname does not begin with N or C. I trying to think who you mean though! ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934280&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vug8ezDCI_ZWm7wLdUYgPaiubXUn0jpAPEzauPOO9jw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934280">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934281" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296996499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW,</p> <p>The fact that you characterize the best understanding of the science as 'pro-AGW' and represent it as a difference of opinion between journalists, indicates you couldn't care less about the science and would rather ignore it in favor of your own narcissistic political beliefs. </p> <p>Here's a clue; Nature doesn't negotiate, nor take into account popular opinion polls. To paraphrase Bill Maher, on one 'side' of this 'debate' we have four hundred years of progressively refined objective understanding of how the natural world works, and on the other 'side', Mr. Potato Head. You've made your choice. You will have to live with it. Don't expect much sympathy when time reveals you to be a blinkered fool.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934281&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jmvDQfbsmb5pJ1-dJKbomfguMsPddl0n76LdIw7QQP8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934281">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934282" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296996773"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Like all trolls, GSW has quite the appetite. Please don't feed him anymore.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934282&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZRORZotEgeuPTYc8dsF71HPIMzMAN9vepCvTG_0Qiz4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934282">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934283" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296997850"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry Woods:</p> <blockquote><p>Why attack TallBloke </p></blockquote> <p>1. He publicly shared private e-mail that he got by accident (wasn't even sent to him by Gavin). To the press, compounding the ethical sin. Of course, in a world where people like you defend the stealing and publication of e-mail from CRU I suppose you aren't able to see the problem.</p> <p>2. He's a liar.</p> <p>Either reason is sufficient.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934283&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZfpnAqNOCifKBymh_warAphVljGRaTVccExoSk_v_Cw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934283">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934284" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296998187"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ian Stewart:</p> <blockquote><p>The fact that he would have us believe that they would let anyone with a "degree in History and Philosophy of Science" anywhere near such a complicated effort as a piece of the CERN project tells me a lot about his self deception.<br /> Tallbloke, do you actually mean "I turned on the CNC machine in the morning and turned it off at night and kept it clean for the real engineers and scientists"? </p></blockquote> <p>He has an HNC-HND and is apparently a qualified *machinist*, which is consistent with his claim to having *machined* such a part used in CERN.</p> <p>The crap here is that machinists aren't engineers, at least in the US. I don't know about UK usage, perhaps he can claim to be an "engineer" in the same sense that in the US a train locomotive driver is an "engineer".</p> <p>But that's not how he's been [mis]representing himself, he's been [mis]representing himself as being an engineer, as in someone who has completed an academic course in some branch of *engineering*, such as electrical, electronic, civil or software engineering.</p> <p>Here's a description of both HNC and HNDs:</p> <blockquote><p>You can study for a Higher National Certificate (HNC) and a Higher National Diploma (HND) in work-related subjects.</p> <p>Higher National Diplomas are higher education diplomas given for successfully completing <b><i>practical, vocational training that prepares the student for a career in a particular area</i></b>.</p> <p>These are practical qualifications offered by universities and many colleges.</p> <p>You can often go on from an HND to study a degree, if you decide that is what you want to do. </p></blockquote> <p>Tallbloke: nothing to be ashamed of, but you were a *machinist*, not an *engineer*, and quit claiming to be so.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934284&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5Fbjlb2cjRFDO0xV1Nc5b59OfWBUlYImMaHZ7XtMHMk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934284">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934285" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296998930"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>133<br /> As far as I'm aware Chatham House rules applied to Fred Pearce as well... Pearce read it for himself.. I'm sure Tallbloke can speak for himself.</p> <p>Someone ask Pearce...<br /> and frankly I don't care.. if you cannot see that fighting amongst yourselves is not damaging your 'side'. Well good luck to you..</p> <p>What is the bigger issue... Tallbloke mentioning something, Fred reading it for himself.<br /> OR FRED writing about it.. You decide. </p> <p>And i agree with J Bowers.. The environment team at the Guardian would be considered pro, as would the Independent... The Daily Mail, is the Daily Wail ;), The Times is behind a paywall, so who cares.. and the Telegraph, well it has Booker and Delingpole.....</p> <p>But it also has Louise Gray and Geoffrey Lean (playing both sides?)</p> <p>Actually, fair point when did Pearce last write anything for the Guardian?</p> <p>I just see this as the beginning end of times for the CAGW delusion.. they turn on each other. That is what is coming across (Romm is at it as well)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934285&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0H2SWuKTRJ8oNt59L9fONj-cQcgyZBa779fwAO0_6_Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934285">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934286" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1296999038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Upon some googling, it appears that in the UK "qualified engineer" can refer to job classifications that aren't "engineering" as professionals would use the word.</p> <p>Well, we do hear phrases like "sanitary engineer" in job applications in the US.</p> <p>So perhaps I'm a bit too harsh above. However, I do think Tallbloke's been using the "engineer" word in order to puff his credentials ... "qualified engineer" makes him sound a lot more sciencey than "machinist".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934286&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c0DNO_-ACbA9p2y6TAu0jO7yoZOKGfCza_iUI-abTHo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934286">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934287" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297000567"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This new "information" actually makes Pearce look even worse. Pearce read a private email, passed that information on to McIntyre who has a blog and could have shared it with his rabid followers to twist and distort at will (to his credit he didn't).</p> <p>And even after reading the email Fred still managed to misrepresent Gavin's position. Fred wrote that "<b>who [referring to Schmidt] said</b>....". What Fred wrote is not what Gavin said at all....</p> <p>Journalistic misconduct much? And of course we have not even begun to highlight the other mistakes in Fred's diatribe. </p> <p>And for the record, it seems that Pearce long ago went to the dark side, as far back as late 2009 in fact.</p> <p>The Lisbon farce was a huge fail for the contrarians and wannabe skeptics. So sad that they cannot see that. Instead they have to fabricate claims that the people who value facts and science are fighting amongst themselves, when in fact it was McIntyre who threw tallbloke under the bus, and Curry is trying to calm her rabid and foaming at the mouth band of acolytes. Not to mention the "skeptics" fighting amongst themselves about the greenhouse effect at Curry's place and at Spencer's place, Watts "firing" Goddard and Spencer's scathing critique of L&amp;C09 :)</p> <p>No, rather it seems the rabid denialists and contrarians and "skeptics" are turning on each other. Delightful.</p> <p>Maybe someone should file a complaint to the EC for a possible misappropriation of funds by the workshop organizers. After all, I'm sure EC funds are surely not permitted to be used to sponsor the circus that was Lisbon...;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934287&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RnscAVirkajjeB9QNCY_ExLGzVml2nzPXQ34GNp8W20"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934287">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934288" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297001032"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>*I just see this as the beginning end of times for the CAGW delusion*</p> <p>Utter bilge. This kind of remark belies a complete lack of scientific reality and is proof that Barry Woods is to be ignored. Also, with respect to 'hysteria', I suggest Barry reads some of the choice comments made about scientists (including myself) from the anti-environmental crowd [I would describe the AGW denial lobby as anti-environmentalists because they also distort science in pursuit of a political agenda, and are also largely populated by the same wretched coterie of right wingers/libertarians/pundits and generally poorly qualified scientists]. Some of these comments by the anti's make anything said by the pro-science group who support the large and accumulating body in favor of AGW appear to be bland. Check out 'Rational Readings on Environment Concerns' for some of these slurs; more recently, read up stuff said about James Hansen or Kevin Trenbarth etc. and you'll get the idea.</p> <p>Lastly, I find it amusing that people like Barry and GSW discuss the climate change issue as if there were 'two sides' embroiled in some rigorous scientific debate. As I said before, only people who are clueless about the way science works could write such flippant remarks. The debate should now be based on (1) how serious AGW is likely to be on natural and managed ecosystems in the near to medium term, and what the concomitant effects are likely to be on the material economy, and (2) what measures are necessary to deal with warming at both regional and global levels. The scientific debate as to the extent of the human fingerprint should be over. Amongst most in the scientific community, this debate IS over. Its only amongst the right wing punditocracy and those who have a vested interest in denial and those laypeople who wish to believe them that the science is still unclear. I have seen the same form of denial used to downplay a range of other anthropogenic threats across the biosphere, including the destruction of terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems and their biodiversity.</p> <p>The denial industry is therefore not restricted to climate change. Its an industry that covers a lot more than that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934288&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0huXeGKVTtNeI90x547DPL17QlQncHyM451WBkM9Bss"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934288">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934289" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297003943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Barry Woods said:](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3225022">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3225022</a>) "I just see this as the beginning end of times for the CAGW delusion".</p> <p>Of course that's how you see it Barry, because you're well and truly in denial. You're a walking dictionary definition, even gettin' down wid de street-talk slang as in C-AGW.</p> <p>But never mind the tawdry, self-serving 'conferences' and their tragic, misbegotten, unseen and uncalculated fallouts as the denail machine media whores itself and desperately tries to grab onto the coat tails of history; those are your heroes.<br /> Meanwhile every major weather event tradedy across the globe, coming as thick and fast as they are, pushing their way onto global front pages will force even the most stupid and intellectually stubborn and downright recalcitrant of the populace to womder does someone have a handle on all this. The answer of course is that someone does. They're the ones who predicted more extreme weather events more often. </p> <p>But it most certainly ain't McIntyre's menagerie and gaggle of grotesques and stooges comfort whispering amongst themselves about beginning of ends.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934289&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pwP3mIo-up5bpWPiKDDQhsh7JaDVJOKUsS8d14MfEdQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934289">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934290" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297004821"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;if you cannot see that fighting amongst yourselves is not damaging your 'side'. Well good luck to you..</p> <p>Au contraire, M. Woods. Robust debate over reasonable and rational disagreements in the good faith interest of arriving at mutual objective consensus is how fruitful science and scholarship is done.</p> <p>Given this is a disagreement about semantics, allow me to deconstruct it for you. Refuting the notion "The Science is settled" is a favored strawman, frequently invoked by your 'side', without so much as a single primary sourced reference to any scientist, much less any kind of compelling argument that it is a widespread belief among researchers professionally involved in climate science. Such a general all-inclusive statement having scientific meaning is not something to which any well trained scientist should agree, given the long since unlamented death of the philosophy of Logical Positivism. In the case of Gavin Schmidt there is, indeed, compelling a priori evidence that he does not hold any such belief. To smear him with such a willful semantically biased interpretation of his words is dishonest and self serving. </p> <p>This is not to say that some particular collection of widely corroborated and mutually consilient empirical findings and their explanations may not be well enough established, if not perfectly and completely established, to the point of being robust consensus theory, even though still open to further refinement and correction to specific remaining uncertainties and incompletenesses. Such is true of all scientific theories.</p> <p>OTOH, the seeming solidarity displayed by your 'side', despite the sprawling incoherent plethora of mutually inconsistent contrarian arguments is indicative of group think.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934290&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qbqeGHBHVI-7qrpH0UeaM_fT5E1l4FeWjeJEFEhr1ps"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934290">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934291" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297005271"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) Whether Tallbloke is or was an engineer is fairly irrelevant. As noted, "engineer" is a vague term and even an engineering PhD is no guarantee of credibility with regard to knowledge of climate science. Even a physics PhD, a NAS membership in physics, or a Physics Nobel are no guarantee either, see study on <a href="http://www.desmogblog.com/another-silly-climate-petition-exposed">APS Petition</a>, in which examples of all can be found.</p> <p>2) If Tim wants to have a thread devoted to serious discussion of which disciplines correlate with climate anti-science, we could have one, and get serious.</p> <p>3) But, the following is *not* serious:</p> <p>#77 "Always the engineers"<br /> Let X = set of deniers, anti-science advocates, whatever<br /> Let E = set of those with {academic degrees, actual work experience, calling themselves engineers</p> <p>#77 appears to be:<br /> ALL X ARE E</p> <p>In support of that, people keep saying:<br /> SOME E ARE X. absolutely true.<br /> (Again, I live in Silicon Valley, I've hired dozens of engineers, I've been an engineering Director or VP in 3 different engineering-oriented computer companies, have often interacted with engineers in manufacturing, automotive, aerospace, petroleum.) </p> <p>Anecdotal evidence is not support for:<br /> ALL E ARE X<br /> E ARE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT-E TO BE X</p> <p>and neither of those is support for:<br /> ALL X ARE E</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934291&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ApcWjgBgFTktCHgxZiF349rRLBOBrII5erTJaGG7Nk4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Mashey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934291">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934292" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297005558"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Whether Tallbloke is or was an engineer is fairly irrelevant. </p></blockquote> <p>I disagree. I wondered why a webmaster would be picked to help lead an international conference on resolving climate science. He's not even a particularly notable member of the denialsphere or blogscience crowd. My guess is that his "I'm a qualified engineer" puffery may well have had something to do with it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934292&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rTpwfpz_p_mXkloA_7gL9QVJqUXMqrkK1JUN09lL_wE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934292">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934293" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297005571"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>barry woods = postmodern man.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934293&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CidTTeYRQ_FqNqmfk4AIBDXE77TAJ-QNUyQ0yHyiRTs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lord_sidcup (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934293">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934294" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297006376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>well. I seem to have taken the heat off Fred Pearce... ;)</p> <p>what will the general public do, if the anomalies go negative/</p> <p>I did say IF... and of course a year or 2 negative, would not disprove AGW either. ie short term entirely possible weather variability..</p> <p>but what would the general public and politicians say.<br /> food for thought?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934294&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o9ofYoXsthR-k67pt4KUA0UVbufz3tVuIKh8kxBEYOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934294">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934295" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297007811"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Barry</p> <p>Is this a reference to NOAA 'Scientist' post on the extended La Nina over at WUWT?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934295&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3ZAYVaVMobcNaI-9DthuAX4qNSt4t1Q7aaYmUrFtP1k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934295">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934296" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297008865"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>gsw - it might be a reference to something current, but I'm absolutely certain I've seen **exactly** the same question posed before - some time last year. Can't track it down just now, but I'll see if I can find it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934296&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2O0zS8wAP_0Pjb6nD7IbrXcEKsjjZpen6abdcX3wT0c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">adelady (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934296">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934297" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297009082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>139: "Barry Woods said: "I just see this as the beginning end of times for the CAGW delusion".</p> <p>Let's see if I've got this correct:</p> <p>1) Petro-funded 'charity' organises 'reconciliation' conference.</p> <p>2) 'Ad hoc committee' invites 75% Rent-a-Pseudo-Skeptics, 25% scientists to said 'conference'.</p> <p>3) Invitation announces that no politics will be discussed, but rather the usual suspects, i.e. MWP etc etc.</p> <p>4) Schmidt refuses to attend, /NOT/ because 'the science is settled' but because "[y]our proposed restriction against policy discussion removes the whole point. None of the seemingly important âconflictsâ that are *perceived* in the science are âconflictsâ in any real sense within the scientific community, rather they are proxy arguments for political positions." (Schmidt, per. Rabett Run.)</p> <p>5) Despite this e-mail from Schmidt, Pearce claims in print that Schmidt had refused because 'the science is settled'.</p> <p>6) Denialists engage in onanistic glee.</p> <p>7) Schmidt protests and publicises his actual reasons as given.</p> <p>8) Ether-crank Tallbloke rushes in to try to take the heat off Pearce, claiming that he, Tallbloke, had given Pearce a 'praisee' of Schmidt's email, which he claims that Pearce did not see.</p> <p>9) McIntyre says that "I can confirm with absolute certainty that Fred Pearce read Gavinâs email" because he saw Pearce read it. (<a href="http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/what-gavin-said-gate/">http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/what-gavin-said-gate/</a>)</p> <p>10) Tallbloke engages in vertiginous gymnastics, in order to avoid answering the question as to why he said that Pearce didn't see the email, while McIntyre, no less, says that Pearce did.</p> <p>11) Pearce engages in silence.</p> <p>12) The 'reconciliation' conference closes with the following 'achievements': a) Gavingate, b) Tallbloke and Curry celebrate the spirit of reconciliation and open-mindedness with a appropriate T-shirt, c) not much else.</p> <p>*</p> <p>Questions:</p> <p>1) Is this about right?</p> <p>2) If so, is this denialism in action, an incredibly bad Monty Python sketch, or both and business-as-usual as such?</p> <p>3) If this is, as claimed by Woods, doing "wonders in helping sceptics", what happens when 'sceptics' REALLY screw things up?</p> <p>*</p> <p>Supplementary question: can the Luminiferous Aether Theory co-exist with the Iron Sun Theory? Surely the 'science isn't settled' on /this/ matter, either...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934297&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IGrCzvWWX5TdDo6ZNtavtVZtSRuzVC-z4EfU3VOQWg4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zibethicus (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934297">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934298" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297009692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks Adelady,</p> <p>[NOAA ENSO expert: âodds for a two-year (La Niña) event remain well above 50%â](<a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/04/noaa-enso-expert-odds-for-a-two-year-la-nina-event-remain-well-above-50/">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/04/noaa-enso-expert-odds-for-a-two-y…</a>)</p> <p>I don't think the post originated from WUWT but is a cut and paste from the NOAA site. The year or two of cooling posited by Barry just struck a cord, wondered if we were talking about the same thing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934298&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y_5_WsPmqYYaXaB8JUxEhO-nxo49uf3KTVJRyZZOEaE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934298">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934299" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297010107"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It seems that the trolls have an insatiable appetite ;)</p> <p>Now back to Pearce misrepresenting Schmidt....has anyone in the UK planning on reporting him and Roger Highfield (Editor of NewScientist, a.k.a PostNormalScientist) to a press council or equivalent? Yes, probably a waste of time, but it still should be done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934299&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5xHyf0N4KODEREyVE_yxVGVwBNUE-Mu-HoFrutwWq_Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934299">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934300" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297010318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry Woods and GSW seem strangely intent on lumping in Pearce with every other journalist from the Guardian Environment desk. </p> <p>Its a hand-waving and distraction strategy. They can't defend Pearce so they try and make some other bizzare nonsense the focus.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934300&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Hhka_A74PpY5eZRpKYzlJLLf86xAb1OrO476AS-ZVec"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934300">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934301" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297011745"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@MapleLeaf @jakerman</p> <p>This is Barry's point I know, but in his absence, are you seriously suggesting;</p> <p>"Climate Loonies report new scientist Climate Alarmists for regurgitating email from petulant Climate Modeler"</p> <p>If you are going to do something about it, do it, STOP the ineffectual rambling!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934301&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uin88mceEftIdrEdwpF5s1bng7G77nlr7BKj4ovtu-I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934301">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934302" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297012413"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW, your last post in unintelligible. Interestingly the value of that contribution is on par with much of your posts in this thread.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934302&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sdfqhQcn3PCADAuiR0rN1Z_05TtdE1cquEhs-ua7kuE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934302">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934303" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297012940"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What is obviously missing here is the input of Pearce and PostNormalScientist (PNS) magazine. Pearce and PNS have both been mum since this story broke. That in itself is unprofessional.Why? Perhaps they are speaking to their lawyers? I know that had this had happened in Canada the complainant would have excellent grounds for suing as Weaver has done.</p> <p>I have a strong suspicion that their way of dealing with this matter is going to involve another article by Pearce in which he makes some sort of half arsed apology intermingled with yet more innuendo and misinformation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934303&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oqCpWczjOZvFJ5_k-s5ITyoemp5AEZHWdB1HebQyAW8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934303">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934304" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297013196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Complaint has been sent to PNS....</p> <p>Anyone else going to please make the effort?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934304&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mgYiyTHBByT1XBkZaQFvNG8qNSX5Sip_Rrk_720UQqU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934304">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934305" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297013445"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Actually I think I understand GSW to be pushing the meme of "alarmists" attacking each other. Clearly it's time to get away from the computer for a while.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934305&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rYlS4FSvGmI60ZsDhGoTfm46oY-jRvlF1zFqYPcpWt0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Holly Stick (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934305">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934306" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297013774"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maple, yes Pearce is so far allowing tallbloke to give several versions of the the steps leading to Pearce's misrepresentation. Pearce's stay quiet strategy does not seem wise given tallblokes contribution. But then again, what is Pearce going to say? He's misrepresentation is indefensible.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934306&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PPBkjnwwry-yXT0CIBVrvpVhDiyz122jBl9Dj3pH2Xk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934306">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934307" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297014048"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;John Mahesy, there haven't been any studies to my knowledge, however this website has been plagued by sceptical engineers in the past, and the Oregon Petition is stuffed with them. Of course I'm not saying all engineers are deniers, however in my experience a large number of them lean that way often using their engineering credentials as some kind of proof they are scientifically adept.</p> <p>A number of people here have commented on how vague the moniker 'engineer' is. It is if you are here in the UK where lots of people are called engineers e.g. the guy who comes to repair the heating is always called an engineer and the repair guy won't even have an HND.</p> <p>Now HNDs and HNCs are very good qualifications but they don't make you an engineer, they are technicians qualifications and technicians think differently from engineers (my own opinion as an engineer is that one of the roles of the engineer is to keep scientists honest). When I did my undergraduate engineering degree back in the 80's, if I remember correctly Engineering Australia wouldn't grant Aust graduates with a BSc in engineering full membership, it had to be a B.Eng (you can tell I'm an engineer, I can't spell, its a prerequisite, like a doctor's handwriting being illegible).</p> <p>However, as an engineer I am worried about the number of denialists who are engineers but I am not puzzled about it. The problem is not so much with engineering as with the way in which people are encouraged to go into engineering. There have been a number of times when I have looked at colleagues and thought they would be much happier as accountants or insurance adjusters rather than being engineers. I just think the wrong sort of people are quite often encouraged to go into engineering, e.g. lacking curiosity.</p> <p>I don't know what tallBoy is on about, its good he has a degree in sci hist and phil and he has done some work to first get an HNC then upgrade that to an HND and I am sure his work at CERN was precision work but it doesn't sound like to me that he is an engineer and this has all just been a distraction.</p> <p>Sorry if this is OT.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934307&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HI2CJKrrOQXhWoMwH9O92-Y8sbg0gNVU86D4EpcRCI8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934307">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934308" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297014466"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@barry woods</p> <p>Please can you ensure you always correctly capitalize your name.</p> <p>One of your posts got through my killfile plugin, resulting in major brain trauma.</p> <p>Regards.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934308&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="agLvaGlfuWKCJ7vWv5xyiSGIXMtBXylgv917IbzNQMw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dave H (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934308">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934309" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297014856"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Sorry if this is OT.</p></blockquote> <p>I don't think so, the info on common usage in the UK was useful to me, a Yank. We tend to call such people "techs" or "repairmen" here, though in the computer industry, back when they needed near-constant babysitting, we had plenty of "Field Engineers" - techs, but actually, not all that infrequently techs with undergraduate engineering degrees.</p> <p>So tallbloke is off the hook with his "qualified engineer".</p> <p>The second sentence of the second paragraph of his "About" page makes me even more doubtful he's qualified to overturn much of modern science, though ...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934309&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XxJXQsHwjavnkmud89fvQ0mQxy_SzcIP-UU4P6IdAP0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934309">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934310" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297015025"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Did tallbloke's "quick praisee" include the following?</p> <blockquote><p>Thanks Nasif. I tried to get an invite for you but apparently, because some very high profile people such as the Pielkeâs are attending, some of the warmers have decided not to attend and effectively ceded the field. The organisers are trying to find more people from âthe consensus of 98% of all climate scientistsâ but itâs proving to be difficult. Maybe theyâre not so confident about defending their science on neutral ground as we are. </p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/flying-to-lisbon-on-official-climate-business/#comment-3645">http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/flying-to-lisbon-on-official-…</a></p> <p>Where did he get that sort of information?</p> <p>If only deniers would realize that the quickest way for reconciliation is for them to be honest then we could move forward on the next step which is coming up with a solution to the problems being caused by AGW.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934310&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UzT8WtwORvqbZo8rThSf22IX2lfw6jJZWXPkh8SfoQY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Forrester (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934310">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934311" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297015040"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>DaveH@159 - post of the day!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934311&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="145dM5Ya8k0DOM8AwDR3E1tn4f0VZnJiwDQiiTlIKNQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934311">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934312" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297015669"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>John Mashey, FWIW, I read "Always the engineers" as sarcastic hyperbole using an idiom that is relatively common (especially in the US), rather than as a precise claim that (say) "ALL X ARE E".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934312&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ryCb9BqGPf3iw7eOPanKtmj2RYBk6VlDeXElop5SgG8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lotharsson (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934312">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934313" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297016212"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@135 Dhogaza.<br /> "I don't know about UK usage, perhaps he can claim to be an "engineer" in the same sense that in the US a train locomotive driver is an "engineer"."</p> <p>Doesn't this qualify me to talk crap about climate as well as Rajendra Pachauri?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934313&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sX9azRJOvlsRoZOOb8b4z19nPdFfQqL_smFaj6c3KHM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934313">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934314" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297016299"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ian Forrester:</p> <blockquote><p>Where did he get that sort of information?</p></blockquote> <p>Apparently, he was one of the people asked to help with the invite list. So it would make sense that they'd come back and say, "hey, we're getting turned down, any more ideas?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934314&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1idCuFQ8jqoHW8TNn7gfU2kOH5tU1LopqTeDT-2YKm0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934314">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934315" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297016512"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mapleleaf #151 - making a complaint to the useless PPC is as you say a waste of time. there's no point in making one unless you are Gavin, which you aren't. They operate a typical regulatory capture scenario, in which anyone not the person directly involved has no standing. You would be better writing to Pearce and New scientist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934315&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="THGok72bnDIEb1nFwJBUh2owPX2hJC0yNe3SCAzCnbA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">guthrie (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934315">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934316" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297016636"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;Doesn't this qualify me to talk crap about climate as well as Rajendra Pachauri?</p> <p>Does anyone else find this sentence as funny as I do?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934316&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S5PL1jM-2P2TgyHAnad9hRHIYmNNtTBTkzpjJb9F8E8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934316">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934317" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297017230"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@158 JeremyC.<br /> "its good he has a degree in sci hist and phil and he has done some work to first get an HNC then upgrade that to an HND and I am sure his work at CERN was precision work but it doesn't sound like to me that he is an engineer"</p> <p>That's right Jeremy, I'm just a dirty handed mechanic.<br /><a href="http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/image_117.jpg">http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/image_117.jpg</a> </p> <p>Still a better Engineer than most BSc's though, because I understand materials and turbulent flows and measurement in the real world beyond the textbook and computer intimately and thoroughly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934317&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CCpJoo_u1AmT8JE8TGRbgisH3b5-9OQxXBwqFVobDX0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934317">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934318" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297017265"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@All following the "Why are Engineers Sceptics Meme"</p> <p>Speculation on my part: I understand that today Science undergraduates are instructed in [Critical Thinking](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking</a>), in my day this was the focal part of every lab exercise. For Engineers it is an implicit day to day methodology for operating effectively - Hence the apparent high percentage of Engineers sceptical of Climate 'Science'.</p> <p>For those of you without Science degrees (or seemingly any critical faculty whatsoever) you could liken it to a highly sensitive BS detector.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934318&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xLNTeiY8l-B_YeTCqcEFRPc64Ks0IrD5YjE6laodKyU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934318">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934319" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297017361"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am scratching my head. Has Tallbloke misspelled precis as praisee?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934319&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4Kar6aErilQk_MHQ5WjfT0Kv5AhzDgfSLksXnKqEESs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">eadler (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934319">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934320" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297017578"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I am scratching my head. Has Tallbloke misspelled precis as praisee?</p></blockquote> <p>eadler, yes.</p> <p>In a similar vein, checkout the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3220842">raison date</a> linked to in the post I've just linked to (above, #68)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934320&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sfuLpBf3jFqD7arsWEGr0zmvWdvf60mvZNVw0Tr1GjQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934320">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934321" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297017726"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke:</p> <blockquote><p>Doesn't this qualify me to talk crap about climate as well as Rajendra Pachauri?</p></blockquote> <p>I wasn't aware Pachuri was a train locomotive driver. We learn something every day from Tallbloke.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934321&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8L-TsDmCkfqVYWD7qGRnxIe4rkesvvEoR1rGpMkMBQA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934321">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934322" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297018173"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@172. Not sure I can teach you how to get a sense of humour.</p> <p>@169 GSW. Spot on brother!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934322&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1l5RXXc54vMF0LQ4epgJHVRBfIPyZs8adsP6ca23npg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934322">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934323" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297018195"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Especially after checking out [Pachauri's education and career:](<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri#Background">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_K._Pachauri#Background</a>)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934323&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8ig2jVFqDQjMRw-frCeZB_9k7TX51QRqjGKwM-6qgTY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Holly Stick (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934323">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934324" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297018505"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Tallbloke #173</p> <p>Not a prob. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934324&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="roMWdNsDb4l4cUkW3lzIjPuP0RUocc4G-qQTAL_y3Yw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934324">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934325" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297018802"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yup GSW,</p> <p>&gt;For those of you without Science degrees (or seemingly any critical faculty whatsoever) you could liken it to a highly sensitive BS detector.</p> <p>And as an engineer my highly sensitive BS detector has for years rung loud and clear whenever a denialist steps into the building.</p> <p>Tallbloke,<br /> I see you didn't read my post but there is a type or personality amongst technicians who are snippy at not being called engineers and then there are the type of technicians such as the one I had on my first project out of university, who was proud to call himself a 'techie' and who had the patience with-me-wet-behind-the-ears to sit me down one day on packing crates at Andrews Antennas in Melbourne and to draw out for me on a piece of paper how a TWTA worked so that I understood it.</p> <p>Just don't try to pass yourself off as an engineer, instead be proud of being a technician</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934325&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OVFhhiRQwARCcVTlFKbcnDqRU5iN5xc1KLyF8zd59zY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934325">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934326" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297018931"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke keeps ignoring [this](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791</a>), to instead side with GSW's drivel.</p> <p>GSW writes:</p> <p>&gt;*@All following the "Why are Engineers Sceptics Meme"*</p> <p>Then goes on to ignore the point that that its a meme. Typical denialist logic failure. Lets see your data on what proportion of Engineers are so called "skeptics"?</p> <p>For the portion who are deniers, a simple hypothesis exists, a significant proportion of Engineers jobs, carers (and that extent identity) have been based on extraction and burning of fossil fuels.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934326&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fEjI6UCWCPUd4vW9bHhiP7KOCTxncpXBkC9qiSmVIfE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934326">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934327" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297019161"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*And as an engineer my highly sensitive BS detector has for years rung loud and clear whenever a denialist steps into the building.*</p> <p>Jeremy, FWIW from the small sample in this thread who have outed themselves as engineers, you can add Lotharsson, John Mashey and I a Engineers with similar BS detection skills.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934327&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="alAn89J4EogGy3HmFdzz9ZbfzGXw9fs3do58nmrfeo8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934327">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934328" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297019372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And we share the same ability in spelling, not. Well, perhaps not John Mashey b'cause if his spelling was bad the deniers would scream about taht all over the place with his reports.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934328&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OizQCY2IUF0VC9es5wSMpisfGfH-9NQttvSFGpdR7SA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934328">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934329" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297019492"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Don't be so hard on yourself Jez, spelling as bad as mine is rare indeed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934329&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zfdrUERkguX4XDLmxVEQO0eFuf69Vtt-7WsuSeWx4uA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934329">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934330" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297019651"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>167 - "Doesn't this qualify me to talk crap about climate as well as Rajendra Pachauri?"</p> <p>No. You don't have two PhD's in fields that would probably make you eligible to be an author on AR5 WG2. You're overreaching, ill informed, and demonstrating why those who chose you for a conference on resolving issues in the climate debate were doomed to fail from the start. Experiment? Yes. Full-arsed? No.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934330&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ox0k2TLJHUumULbqmhfK2SsFs1rzgs0Y39JR_hvXs5Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934330">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934331" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297020177"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JBowers</p> <p>Agreed. One Rajendra Pachauri talking crap is more then enough ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934331&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BzG-XcyFKtYeQPvxfNI1mdwyd3P_d5cN1owVuR-jdpM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934331">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934332" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297020597"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That last comment exposes GSW lack of argument and lack of honesty further.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934332&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xYv4tpbDI7ovEDPyJ-czGeUXdAXKYh1-P2cDOpxVNUU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934332">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934333" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297020645"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke's only qualified to talk crap, that's established.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934333&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aUV_I6e2y8dUEWcrH_5nTNjzPQQ-2zJnv0Y_KKFevjU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dhogaza (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934333">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934334" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297020699"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hence the apparent high percentage of Engineers sceptical of Climate 'Science'.</p></blockquote> <p>And Evolution; don't forget all those Engineers who are skeptical of Evolution. After all, it was the "biggest hoax ever perpetrated on humanity" long before AGW was and much like AGW its demise has been ever-imminent.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934334&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tjNYA94tEciXcOSDEJdMpok_UhNVeaPhmQa7YtFbvOY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pough (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934334">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934335" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297020941"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@pough</p> <p>Are they? I didn't know that. Let's find out...Hands up all the Egineers here sceptical of evolution?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934335&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yvD0rGiRstPDoeedcMLU4SXW9HGkEhuXYvuQDrjpgpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934335">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934336" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297021519"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Roger, quick, raise your hand! Your ally is in need of some confirmation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934336&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w8yGT0q9B0g-6S2NUbraRBzIguUbieSt6s3uUvkCPg4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934336">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934337" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297021634"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@luminous</p> <p>;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934337&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="F-BL3xxH2ZHIsTS21J0vL0p4ao-lMH1BDKwSvtii0ho"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934337">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934338" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297021884"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry Pough,</p> <p>Can't let that go by. I'm not sceptical of evolution, I don't know why engineers might be sceptical of evolution, oh.....and......I'm a christian from the evangelical protestant tradition and many people (not from any christian tradition) tell me that because I'm a christian I am supposed to be sceptical of evolution..... but I just put that down to ignorance on their part.</p> <p>Oh, and there is nothing in the bible that tells me I have to be polite to deniers, look at the language Jesus, John the bap and Paulie of Tarsus used about similar types, burns your ears off it does!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934338&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-fs4XIktX7RmmnFkg9uMQnrq50qxzm9FRaj58iVS84c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934338">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934339" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297022129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There Jeremy is a sample size of one, that should be enough data for GSW to create a meme about the whole population of Engineers (which was how I read pough's point Jez).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934339&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aORQHbYTWYfVUFdW25ckLivOqhVWJfaKShFet6meMqY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934339">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934340" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297022427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Or to state's pough's point another way, GSW may as well be making up reasons to explain why so many engineers are denialst as for why so many engineers reject evolution. As neither memes are based on sufficient data.</p> <p>Here is question to emphasis the point: GSW, do you think that more engineers reject the theory of evolution than do scientist?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934340&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7A2Wk1zhMDMw1-6fMtTo-ocuPbAZVDuNiHf_bUUloyQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934340">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934341" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297023107"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jeremy C</p> <p>That's ok, I believe one's own personal religious belief is a complex issue, with an obligation to family, community and others, resolve it as best you can.</p> <p>Whether AGW is true or not has no relevance to this. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934341&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WHBCc97DzPlgyYIcIVgumqqBlSCexIBtq0LDK_PVLxc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934341">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934342" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297023147"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's a fun piece on the [problem with engineers](<a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo">http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo</a>)</p> <p>John Mashey, please read the 3rd paragraph of it ("This does not mean that engineers are <i>likely</i> ... ")! [my italics]</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934342&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jTB24Cm3UnAAqNwMjgvCSr1Mh7WtemmjFXi28QpTYeE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">frankis (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934342">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934343" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297023477"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@191</p> <p>This was in response to an earlier post, I think the poster was having a go at people without degrees saying, "why is it always the engineers?" implying a higher proportion of Engineers are Sceptics. I have no data on this, but suggested a possible reason.</p> <p>Ask the original poster? if I were you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934343&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5Q5u5rHGueY6QhhtEKvJ-rzpY32_9s6CWOPfOw_v6-o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934343">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934344" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297023873"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@193</p> <p>If you are going to link to something, actually link to something worthwhile. Garbage In Garbage Out.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934344&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2rN_NK6R-n1mYLmBs2MhKcUz9NyZXvH7qNZzWzdMrBs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934344">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934345" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297023887"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>frankis, very interesting, thanks for the data.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934345&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zcUln8WqZhpOluVkNIlilyrnXhi75-po0mGXv9vGXkw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934345">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934346" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297024371"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Good point Jakerman,</p> <p>My mistake in not getting your comment Pough.........And looky is GSW trying to be as deft as Pough......if so he don't get it.</p> <p>Frankis,</p> <p>That was funny....Y'Ouch! </p> <p>But, hey, I strongly object to engineers being described as politically conservative, I have never voted conservative and think that Abbott is more dangerous than Howard ever was (and he's deranged as well) and can point to lots of engineers who wouldn't vote conservative (e.g. Jimmy Carter and the Australian playwright David Williamson). But yeah, sometimes we can be real berks, hence my self serving point earlier that a lot of the wrong sort of people get pushed into engineering and then you get people like Tallbloke trying to pass himself off as an engineer - hmmm, perhaps that adds to the thesis of the author of "Engineers and Woo".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934346&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N8rniXTAmBob17kUf6Sntvpc3mkp7xocHv0b3Cj4FAs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934346">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934347" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297024423"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*I have no data on this, but suggested a possible reason.*</p> <p>Perhaps you could also suggest a possible reason for why "Many prominent figures in the creationism movement are or have been engineers"?</p> <p>Or why *"data gathered in 1984 found 46% of male American engineers describing themselves as both conservative and religious, compared with 22% of scientists."*</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934347&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZdLUvq9yRijaYGQ81-fifofxonFTKI9H3YtfkLZSNnw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934347">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934348" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297024675"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@196 197</p> <p>Garbage In Garbage Out. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934348&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OrtZ_BH3Hnyrh1gGh67zst0Sj0ns4QxrbtOvJeDjZFk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934348">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934349" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297024747"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@195</p> <p>Ah Frankis,</p> <p>Dare it looks like you may have touched a nerve there with your link.</p> <p>Off course being an engineer I never pontificate on any thing till I've thoroughly researched the back of the cornflake packet and then I hand it back to Andrew Bolt or James Delingpole to use.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934349&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BM4tUNAJ6rJ2WUV0MofTVQ63jwFpgJnWPLQ3UaEOlq8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934349">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934350" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297025237"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;Perhaps you could also suggest a possible reason for why "Many prominent figures in the creationism movement are or have been engineers"?</p> <p>Could it be us engineers are more genetically susceptiple to that terrible affliction, *Emeritus Syndrome, than scientists are? An affliction that denialists have so cruelly exploited.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934350&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="x6waPL-z_gXA6rpwzJFCXSeLYqatuAOqOeo6uJiot_g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934350">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934351" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297026190"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>frankis' link is fun but the language is rather inflammatory.</p> <p>If a larger percentage of engineers are creationists, one possible explanation might be that a creationist would choose to train in an applied science rather than a theoretical science that involves learning about evolution. They may also now prefer to avoid climate science because it deals with the idea that humans can make major changes to earth and even destroy its capacity as a home for humans.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934351&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l24JxiBfGd1z5emq0oouK8UJ130t9-DKxKpLB1D3CC4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Holly Stick (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934351">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934352" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297026343"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh poor GSW, he loves speculating on issue with no data, but shirks from it when there is supporting data.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934352&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="scaE-YZmiyCCqMKsCUjO8-UEsVa6-mM5AQpd1Jz1g9U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934352">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934353" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297026482"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Holly, I agree, fun, inflammatory and the data has many possible explanations.</p> <p>Still its a step up on that which GSW speculates on.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934353&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lJRsjXYXJoiNvA2IJ5V-mLFK7WbE5d0q22t4RrGcle4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934353">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934354" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297027421"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@173. Not sure I can teach you what a non-sequitur is.</p> <p>BTW, your crap is pretty funny.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934354&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mObhU2eDWYbRFw-8i0J4H2kQa59bLjjE_ATUHUz4Lgc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934354">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934355" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297027877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@jakerman</p> <p>Ok then, do you actually have anything worthwhile to say? if so what is it, Engineers are bad people? (They have no science degree) what is your degree in? Mines Physics, I only have the two, under and post, have you ever had any education whatsoever? If you had you wouldn't be half as rude and condescending as you are.</p> <p>YFM! ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934355&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PA5QtXxLvv9_NcLig05k38SL_4OYGmdnFpkoDkepYCs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934355">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934356" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297028267"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>121 strange analogy..</p></blockquote> <p>Eh? What constitutes a non-"strange" analogy?</p> <blockquote><p>Personally I would think both the petrol thrower and match lighter were both rather unpleasant people to know... and bot at fault.. though, the match thrower is slightly more the 'nutter'</p></blockquote> <p>Aw, look, chubby-chops just took a step! Isn't he growing up so fast?</p> <blockquote><p>well. I seem to have taken the heat off Fred Pearce...</p></blockquote> <p>Uh-oh. Poor Barry just landed on his botty. One step foward, one fall back.</p> <p>The clever tyke has mastered self-contradiction though.</p> <p>[GSW](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226265">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226265</a>) and [Tallblock](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226335">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226335</a>) - it seems that your "highly sensitive BS detector[s]" are broken. Perhaps you need to find a real engineeer to repair them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934356&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BohSPtzqu6Em9NpfQWxL_D8mOHpYYkFJgZL1SUAMKg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934356">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934357" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297028902"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW, when you employ fallacious arguments such as focusing on and making up my opinion about how I feel personally towards engineers you give yourself away. </p> <p>Instead of your fallacies, how about you answer [the question](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226747">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226747</a>).</p> <p>You're not so keen to speculate now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934357&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1Gl2Oaddot524xYi8DyUaoARgdYClf_0wfAgtvAFTJE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934357">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934358" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297029111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@jakerman</p> <p>have you had any formal education or not? I'd say not. If so, what is it? </p> <p>Words of one syllable will suffice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934358&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4wxK-LkDE5YWyeBRo0mrgPRBDiI0xkpkAX8HW6BL_rE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934358">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934359" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297029317"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To be honest, I think the perception comes not from engineers being crazy, but from engineers who are crazy insisting on mentioning their career choice as though it has meaning in every situation. A fine case in point can be found in this thread where Tallbloke trots out his engineering status as a crank-proofery, as though an engineer's card (do you get cards?) is like a Get Out of Crank Free card.</p> <p>You will find engineers proudly on anti-evolution and anti-AGW lists of "scientists" and the question is, why? Why are there engineers on those lists? To keep Ginger Spice company?</p> <p>And my response to GSW's silly comment was to point out that the BS detector engineers come with stock seems to be good at finding false positives, too. While engineering is a great skill for engineering tasks, hauling it out and waving it around in inappropriate circumstances (biology, climate science) is about as impressive as Ken Jeong auditioning for a role as John Holmes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934359&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-HBWmzqzt8JpUeR_t69jPfeyRrx8-ylfeH_GhVvMRcY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pough (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934359">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934360" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297029793"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW @67:</p> <blockquote><p>... a climate modeler? I don't think that makes you a scientist ...</p></blockquote> <p>Let me get this straight GSW - you claim to be an engineer, you are an expert in climate science, and you demand that people compare their qualifications to yours?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934360&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kOLFTX1vEshl44_sT4iO6rNHBNd1zO-Sf_RKi72FJd8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">frankis (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934360">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934361" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297029862"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW, Let me point out your double fallacy in your latest short post:</p> <p>Firstly my qualifications are not needed to show your false logic.</p> <p>Secondly, Well I've save the second part of your dumb question, if you were sharp you already pick it. Lets just say that those of us who actually read the thread already know how redundant your question is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934361&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="17SS0w6VBlHqN9BucIfOg2dFRxdEh3CAejTIRDoZ81A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934361">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934362" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297029934"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#210,</p> <p>I've worked with both, as a preference I'd with the talented Engineer. A solid reliable opinion is what counts every time.</p> <p>What's the matter jakerman, still can't remember where you went to school?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934362&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7t1sIFokwa6M99zAyId9r0hlA-7dmg4hvkCk5YU-T88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934362">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934363" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297030094"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@211</p> <p>I'm not an Engineer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934363&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-jRmUW4K8IM5temzWc9GplGX7aqdEo-V8nCN8YtF3tI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934363">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934364" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297030220"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@212</p> <p>Good you have qualifications, what are they?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934364&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bgmNzGKFMqNdh4ldJo8SuZjtQzb2kXn0Rv2x_SMDTbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934364">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934365" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297030296"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW has a degree in physics. This is the internet so he must be telling the truth.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934365&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XWs8N8iBlWHXT3fG3gjig7f6l95nBH8bAjQVhmKYINQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934365">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934366" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297030529"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@216</p> <p>Yeah, Schuster labs in Manchester, James Clerk Maxwell, Edinburgh,</p> <p>You?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934366&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o_YmJtBSoghxVNkcw9-EjPhxZi6TYla5Cbqw_cXhJHI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934366">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934367" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297030875"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is @216 some kind of internet shorthand beyond my ken? GSW is also claiming to be James Clerk Maxwell or a reincarnation of him? I am confused. However I believe the two great climate scientists Lubos Motl and Freeman Dyson have degrees in physics so even if GSW's is only undergrad he can be presumed to be well on the way, too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934367&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="acGNzqBF46GmJz1A1hWE4zRglPBSMrMNnfZm6VVU-As"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">frankis (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934367">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934368" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031039"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@218</p> <p>Your ignorance is amusing!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934368&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4fvywdGIq0Mb81nRsyOxOXuNlSai7dlZcsSoEjrCOgM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934368">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934369" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031158"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Frankis](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226679">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3226679</a>).</p> <p>I love rational wiki, and ironically I linked to that very page about a month ago on a forum of lay people who were taking engineering woo as the gospel on climate change denialism. Of course, the response there was essentially the same as GSW's exhortation of "GIGO" - a completely fatuous and unevidenced claim, by the way...</p> <p>As the rational wiki link and as others above have pointed out, the presence of a cohort of denialists in the discipline is not a reflection on <i>all</i> engineers. It simply acknowledges that there is a bimodal (at least) distribution of characteristics within the discipline. Such distributions are common in many fields of endeavour, and this is what leads to the stereotyping of people in various disciplines, even if the conspicuousness resulting in the stereotype doesn't actually represent the majority.</p> <p>Within science some of the most common characterisations are those of the absent-minded professor, and of the socially-inept scientist. Both <i>are</i> represented, and almost certainly in proportions above those found in the general public, because the personality characterisics that predispose people to such conditions are allied with, or from a component of, other characterisitcs that draw people to science in the first place.</p> <p>Similarly, within climate change denialism, there are characterisations as well, simply because such are actually found in greater abundance here than in the general population. The Dunning-Kruger effect is an obvious one, as is the holding of fundamental ideology and/or vested interests against emissions reduction. </p> <p>Within the umbrella classification of 'science' there is a distinct locus of climate change denialism, and this occurs in the earth sciences, and most particularly in the economic geology field. Again, in these cases there are unsurprising predispositions that explain why usual scientific rationalism and true scepticism are sidelined.</p> <p>And even in examples such as Judith Curry and Fred Pearce, if one scratches the surface sufficiently one will probably discover that there are peculiarities of character and/or of circumstance, rather than of any real analysis of the best science, that explains their jumpings of the sharks. This is perhaps one of the things that most characterises the denialist argument - that if one digs deeply enough, there are at the foundations non-scientific explanations for their views, and almost never - if <i>ever</i> - any actual reliance on real and rationally assessed science.</p> <p>That neither Pierce nor Curry have ever actually formulated a coherent and inassailable argument for their <i>argumentum ad temperantiam</i> fallacies of logic is telling. Their adherence to such fallacy also provides an ongoing and self-sustaining stratgey for never addressing the points of science underpinning affairs such as the one that is the subject of this thread.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934369&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="26ceqWB_NcHaKx-Ksw9db_qgwujpo-lK8Fvo5J-HgtI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934369">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934370" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031176"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@218</p> <p>eh frankis, while we are talking, do you have anything in the way of a formal education?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934370&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_CJU3qzloSyyM_RGHtflZZPyvPw9vbg8oVr2wOwduyA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934370">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934371" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031221"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*have you had any formal education or not? I'd say not. If so, what is it?*</p> <p>&gt;*What's the matter jakerman, still can't remember where you went to school?*</p> <p>&gt;*Good you have qualifications, what are they?*</p> <p>That is a top secret information, only available to people like Jez, Loth, John, and others who have basic reading comprehension.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934371&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HyEzD-ktZf6whz4_XPrNoflZO3ivSS3yKIvQ_-HpfME"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934371">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934372" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031511"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thought not. It seemed, at one point at least, that having a University degree(s) was relevant as to what you had to say, you not having any of course means you should remain silent. Ho hum, so be it.</p> <p>;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934372&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ye_RPUU2-1_eAbajuG1qYxHh_39pdRrczoxOuIBpD3I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934372">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934373" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031547"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW since you are interested in qualifications how many [active climate scientist](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/01/97_of_active_climatologists_ag.php">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/01/97_of_active_climatologists_ag…</a>) have relevant competence?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934373&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CRNXraqd33a4QVJolEMpiBGFkxGB5ozKPnjR8xWt53I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934373">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934374" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031731"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW, how does if feel having [your fallacious argument](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227070">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227070</a>) exposed by someone who you believe has no formal qualifications?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934374&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IwFrCqOLrTvyu2jpMexRRGw12WX91Zglc37t1yLKKEA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934374">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934375" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297031789"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>They may have,</p> <p>We've established you have none. ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934375&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="P_nPiYErcOH8sPrq-evBfnONfzq8ytQTuIQDnYfcYkU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934375">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934376" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297032206"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;Yeah, Schuster labs in Manchester, James Clerk Maxwell, Edinburgh.</p> <p>What you really mean is the University Of Google.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934376&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gBTc1QQk7RFeMvhVCrZe458I0BVy7n35UMA9Pqg__gg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934376">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934377" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297032366"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@227</p> <p>Nope the real deal. You?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934377&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kwxmfeHj4z_cFVbjpjIVynA2ei_9l_EzSIbiQZ62Vv0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934377">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934378" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297032427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW reminds me of [John Brignell](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/brignell/">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/brignell/</a>) of Numberwatch fame, for some reason. Modesty prohibits me, GSW, from showing you mine for fear that you'd be traumatised for life. You may however rest assured that it is <i>really</i> impressive. Actually, too impressive to be fooling around with you like this but we're all fallible aren't we.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934378&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rN0_WOBEnpBY2IXKeEnD0QqfGBQmarGQ0FOAnfJeK-8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">frankis (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934378">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934379" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297032431"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I believe you.</p> <p>;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934379&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aeL1G0ByN9yYR7pgtXzolvRIxJM9x6FL8ZwKJj9xi1k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934379">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934380" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297032946"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@All</p> <p>Apologies, don't like this, but have a real bug bear with "Let the scientists say what is and is not correct"- if you haven't got a degree then what you say doesn't matter. You make up your own minds, remember;</p> <p>Nullius in Verba</p> <p>Its as true then as it is now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934380&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wNvJSceOuKqdL6o7T-RoCrXpxnZyFAoHdJuKODfinsM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934380">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934381" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297033208"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Then being 1660. Also, all scientists are a**eholes, sometimes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934381&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0VuOv2k7S7Mxjg1oA0LotJxQNMPeed5rbzJ2WV9bVfU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934381">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934382" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297033382"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@231 OK well, hey, I think I <i>did</i> understand that point GSW and it sounds reasonable. You wouldn't like to apologise for your "... a climate modeler? I don't think that makes you a scientist ..." from earlier, would you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934382&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ytdJV3nEvQjvWABWR8lJKUaP-gVb0O-LIqHdbVlxv-w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">frankis (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934382">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934383" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297033410"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Are you drunk? You're barely making sense.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934383&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fSHytNvty0CbpIZd5N2ccaAYuohquDmw34nMxPZdcCg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934383">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934384" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297033668"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@233</p> <p>Sorry No, built models myself (Not Climate Models) can get any answer you want just by changing a few innocuous numbers. Either you know your "Stacking the Deck" or you don't.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934384&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q4Ym3r4e-zQdxzyaBMZ7pXLj67wMACaE5gU_hwPjyEw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934384">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934385" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297033852"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*if you haven't got a degree then what you say doesn't matter.*</p> <p>Who says that GSW? Give us a reference.</p> <p>FWIW, GSW doesn't seem very interested in arguing the science for someone who has been so set on asking about qualifications. Perhaps he's not as competent as hes been bragging. Undergrad Phys 1001 perhaps, never employed in the field.</p> <p>Not that it matters, cos he's not made a useful augment that would draw on any science.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934385&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xr0EUtb3hnZRsAweekDP9FhEP0Z5bfoQtsrUnPMg9Qc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934385">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934386" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034081"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@jakerman</p> <p>You found a qualification then?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934386&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0-U8wMEf2zMb9qkXUbsmF5t_uWbkslAo5Pd6_oVv-FQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934386">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934387" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034151"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Models, they are [doing well](<a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/01/2010-updates-to-model-data-comparisons/">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/01/2010-updates-to-m…</a>) thanks. </p> <p>Then again they are well constrained by good physical data.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934387&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cVYNURbBF--t1D0IfYjlTFn_ppsVytkRn9Ex-juKsg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934387">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934388" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034257"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Found your reading comprehension yet GSW?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934388&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f0paCoYUUAEFEZmz3uxS3jj9fTrNZ94yweSEdJiYvTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934388">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934389" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034367"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Another [good article](<a href="http://e360.yale.edu/feature/can_we_trust_climate_models_increasingly_the_answer_is_yes/2360/">http://e360.yale.edu/feature/can_we_trust_climate_models_increasingly_t…</a>) on climate models.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934389&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Iz4aVRCVDUrBQq_MZC41uofha2caTIvuSOvejdNZD1Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934389">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934390" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034424"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@jakerman</p> <p>;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934390&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VYHysqPAnRfvlWqEyVpFjl8Vj6Abp6UUQWLGWxEdIWA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GSW (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934390">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934391" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034479"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW starts hand waving when [asked for the basis](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227365">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227365</a>) of his claims.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934391&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uba6f4ZXB5TnG_jgUY-mXf98Ufwz8UbB5-EJb0FSZog"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934391">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934392" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297034515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW.</p> <p>You have a real issue with dropping your knickerbockers and exposing your [bootstraps](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/01/open_thread_58.php#comment-3222571">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/01/open_thread_58.php#comment-3222…</a>), don't you?</p> <p>[Frankis](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227296">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227296</a>) has yet again pre-empted me on a point, but neverthless I'd be interested to know: </p> <ol><li>what <i>your</i> educational level is, and</li> <li>why on earth it matters anyway, if you are not going to back your argument from authority with <b>actual data and science</b>.</li> </ol><p>For what it's worth I can probably safely say that if you're only bachelor-qualified, I have spend more years enroled at university than you have in the entire education system. And before you use the "perpetual student" gambit, there wasn't a single year that I didn't work as well, and for many of the years it was full-time work.</p> <p>Thus, by your own measure, Frankis and I would speak with more authority than you, so perhaps it is you who should "[remain silent](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227233">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227233</a>)".</p> <p>Either that, or you start making some sensible contribution to the discussion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934392&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3kWntQiYDLe0hQnZTn1kd7f1UXAfC1g3A01VWjNLyEc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934392">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934393" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297035654"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Better still BJ, I want to know what models [GSW has produced](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227359">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227359</a>).</p> <p>GSW, doesn't seem the most dependable bloke, so we'll need to see the model, and its parameters rather than take his word for it. Then we' need to see how well it perform in hind-cast for a century or so back.</p> <p>Please link us to your published results GSW.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934393&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="blVJZ9Kk4-9kOBqH5Y1cUCKRL2hUiDri48Udo4ZStjU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934393">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934394" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297036309"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>GSW is doing postgraduate work in trolling. See how masterfully he/she has derailed this thread. And all because he/she either can't read or doesn't understand jakerman's comments.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934394&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Nu4nHbumaD8cK3nAbdDPfOgngewDlfT7SF2pP5OWijI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zoot (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934394">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934395" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297036961"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I've worked with both...</p></blockquote> <p>Both? Engineers <i>and</i> Ginger Spice?</p> <blockquote><p>...I'd with the talented Engineer.</p></blockquote> <p>That sentence no verb.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934395&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v2jErSRq9NYFTucMe4YSiLzz2JsDfOcekYEgAZZpa20"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pough (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934395">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934396" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297044303"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@201 Many prominent figures in the creationism movement are or have been engineers"?<br /> Could it be...</p> <p>Or could it be that despite many people who claim know that many people who claim to be engineers aren't, suspend their skepticism about creationists who claim to be engineers because of their confirmation bias when trying to link creationism with 'climate denialism' (A concept so stupid it defies analysis)</p> <p>By the way Jeremy and Dhogaza, in the UK, holders of HNC who have completed engineering apprenticeships and two years of full time work as qualified engineers are entitled to join the professional society of registered engineers. This is because they are engineers. This overcomes the old snobbery of differentiating 'dirty handed mechanics' with practical engineering training who have also achieved sufficient academic qualification from academically trained engineers who also did a placement with an engineering outfit during their degree.</p> <p>Machinist technicians are people trained to be machinists. Usually on a two year course. I was lucky enough to get the full four year engineering training with a Swiss multinational which covers all aspects of engineering rather than boxing trainees into a specialism.</p> <p>It does devalue the title when every operative of any description suddenly gets to be an 'engineeer' though, rather then an engineering operative, or binman, so I understand and share Jeremy's defensive attitude to his professional status.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934396&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ESpCzvSZ_0nIApCEL1MiA9DHwYxn7rlaLReR5NYaExw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934396">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934397" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297045040"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@243 "if you are not going to back your argument from authority with actual data and science."</p> <p>I tried introducing some scientific discussion here two days ago@50</p> <p>No takers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934397&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KgO3fDcbfZMSyoHx8LVMuojPvU5mH_2qHYTDmsOB204"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934397">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934398" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297047600"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rog @ 247;</p> <p>I think the problem here is not 'snobbery' , but simply what assumptions people make when they hear the term.</p> <p>Here in Oz, if someone told me that they were a 'Qualified Engineer' my assumption (and it would be correct) would be that they have an undergrad degree from a recognised university where they undertook an intensive course of study that inclucded a large amount of complex maths and physics. If the same person told me they were a 'Qualified Machinist' I'd have no expectation of a high level of maths and physics.</p> <p>The point - if both say to me 'I doubt the physics of X in AGW', I'd be confident that the Engineer had the basics to make some kind of informed critique.</p> <p>But that's not really the issue here - it's what you did. Showing around an email that you were not the intended recipient of, and then being mealy-mouthed about an apology, indicates that your main problem isn't your qualifications, but your lack of integrity (an epidemic amongst the 'skeptics', in my experience).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934398&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L0rWZ0kgk5JDrle47-ukLHQCi5C18LY6OBx59tK9kyY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934398">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934399" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297047999"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Several points:</p> <p>GSWs and Tallblokes alleged 'BS detectors' may work in their own respective fields, but they sure as hell don't work in the Earth Sciences. GSW makes a big deal out of his physics degree, but he still hasn't answered me on how many peer-reviewed publications and citations he has in ANY field of science (including his own). I suggested 'nil' and 'nil' earlier and I will stick with that until he suggests otherwise. Besides, possessing a physics degree is not some key to wisdom. </p> <p>Its also amazing how denialists lacking any pedigree in certain fields of science - here, climate science - wade in (like Tallbloke, above) claiming that they want a scientific discussion while at the same time studiously ignoring submitting their contrarian ideas to peer-reviewed scientific journals where they would reach the broader scientific community and more importantly would be rigorously tested for their validity (or lack thereof). Instead they think that the anti-environmental/anti AGW blogosphere is a fine place for their ideas to be aired, and routinely snipe away at the scientists doing the actual research and their output in scientific journals.</p> <p>A few years ago I recall the furore here in the Netherlands when a paper was published in Nature suggesting that continued climate warming would generate an extinction event unseen on the planet for 65 million years. The lead author gave an excellent talk at out institute, which, however, was also attended by a few shrill critics of the article. They were very voacal in their criticisms, even during his talk, making such irrelevant remarks as 'the article will scare the general public' and so on... I spoke with one of these critics and I suggested that he should write a rebuttal and submit it to Nature or another top ecology journal. That was the last I ever heard from him - no article (as far as I know) rebutting the Nature piece was ever published. Instead, the rebuttals largely were confined to the blogosphere, as they are with climate science with respect to warming. </p> <p>People like Barry and GSW give the impression that there is a vigorous ongoing debate over the warming but that 'debate' is not being fought in scientific institutions, universities or reputable conferences (Lisbon and Heartland excluded), because in these academic circles the debate (at least with respect to the causes of climate change, as I said yesterday) is over. The debate is now focused on the extent and consequences of warming, and not the underlying causes. </p> <p>Speaking as a population ecologist, most of my discussions with respect to global change and its effects on biodiversity are carried out with colleagues at my institute and at conferences and workshops. When I see people making frankly crass remarks about ecology and biodiversity online, as occasionally here when contrarians wade in with their two cent's worth (I have not the time to counter every bit of nonsense I see online) I respond. But the one thing I have learned as a scientist is that, if one lacks the pedigree, they should stick to the broad scientific views in any given field of research. When I see people like GSW and Barry (and many others - we know who they are) come in here on Deltoid professing wisdom in a field with which they barely understand the basics, espousing their contrarian views, it becomes clear why they avoid the scientific journals. Like the anti-AGW blog sites, they know their nonsense would not stand up to scientific scrutiny but that does not matter because they are not targeting scientists in the field of climate research but the lay public. Just as I said yesterday.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934399&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rt0KwGv_li5hwwqaez8z6KrFabc8zVa_hqI4wG6g92Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934399">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934400" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297048282"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>248: I tried introducing some scientific discussion here two days ago@50</p> <p>No takers.</p> <p>(end quote)</p> <p>How about this:</p> <p>Why did you say that you had given Pearce a "a quick praisee" of Schmidt's email - which 'praisee' clearly wasn't accurate - when Steve McIntyre says that he saw Pearce reading Schmidt's actual email, which he says you showed Pearce?</p> <p>McIntyre isn't lying, is he?</p> <p>But if he's not lying, you were, weren't you?</p> <p>*</p> <p>That scientific enough for you?</p> <p>At least it's getting back to the actual issue at hand...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934400&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0JYQN3t8IhD6SjGBeXKUgUwvbVv0COhroDKAjj8ABdI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zibethicus (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934400">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934401" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297048495"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;*I tried introducing some scientific discussion here two days ago@50, No takers.*</p> <p>That is because in your context Rog, we are very interested in asking you about the topic of this thread, and urging you to grow a pair and apologizes. </p> <p>So how about it Rog, can you admit to your [unfair treatment](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3217791</a>) of Gavin?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934401&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N3p6ZsNimdSOJdp8iPaQVk7RpsJ_jO8jb55MiqEWnjg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jakerman (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934401">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934402" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297052871"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;qualified engineers are entitled to join the professional society of registered engineers</p> <p>Look tallbloke, you really do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about how you should be addressed but at the risk of more chippery from you just what UK society of engineers are you referring to, double E? (i.e. the IET), Imech?, civil ? and then the various other bodies such as the the energy institute, etc. The next question is at what level are you allowed to join at: professional or technician grade?</p> <p>Just accept what has happened on this thread, you got a freebie to a 'conference' and on this thread you shot your mouth off about it and people called you on that and then you tried to appeal to your own spurious scientific authority and when you were challenged on that you tried passing yourself off as something your not.</p> <p>D'you think its time to stop listening to your ego urging you on in digging a hole?</p> <p>Meanwhile I've gotta go out this morning to replace the bell arm on the BS detector. Its got worn out from the alarm going off every 30 seconds on this thread.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934402&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gYw7KQeQ13sLHepN6N7nw_aglercE0Y3EC-s6hc1xoU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934402">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934403" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297054969"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Tallblock](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227927">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227927</a>).</p> <p>For what it's worth, [my comment at #243](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227391">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3227391</a>), about "actual data and science", was directed to GSW. </p> <p>However, as you have raised the matter of your link in the same paragraph as the word "science", perhaps you'd care to dissect this exchange on that thread:</p> <blockquote><p><b>Olavi</b> says:<br /> December 25, 2010 at 9:51 pm</p> <p>Have you considered, that collapse of thermosphere has made changes to the whole atmosphere? Radiation works as a soundwave, the longer wave the easier it penetrates all barriers. So if atmosphere shrinkâs down longwave IR goes easier through. At the same time density change in atmosphere makes differences to lower atmosphere, like turnig jetstreams. And all this, because radiation spectra from the sun is diffrent and lack of solar wind?<br /> In this case, missing energy goes to heating atmosphere, because IR throws out more than Sun bringâs in. Simple.</p> <p><b>tallbloke</b> says:<br /> December 26, 2010 at 1:15 pm</p> <p>Hi Olavi and welcome.<br /> Yes, it does seem that more energy seems to be going out than coming in recently. The shrinking thermosphere could be an important factor, and your explanation makes sense to me. Thanks.</p></blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934403&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rrrYAh_9sXXHNC92W5-DkQihhf16wbzuyFNZOraFs24"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934403">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934404" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297055043"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jeff Harvey -<br /> A few strawmen there, well done.. We will have to disagree.</p> <p>Time will tell of course.. As the hard economic reality is that China and India (and africa) will burn their coal. Whatever any of us do say, etc. </p> <p>To stray back on topic. I would be interested to hear what New Scientist and Fred Pearce have to say on 'Pearcegate'<br /> Does anybody have any idea if they are going to give a response, Is Gavin going to pursue it, or will it just get forgotten about?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934404&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MD7kCUtp2e48K5Z_A3sc2t6-aF0FtXTu1LcIcIHX0Uc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934404">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934405" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297055803"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry,</p> <p>sensible to bring t back on topic. Thanks. My lack of discipline.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934405&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ERcRwiTcZ0areHbzr-F-P5a1lCRkQaRPQ1lxeWDsVxU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934405">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934406" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297056169"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry,</p> <p>Care to expand upon your 'strawman' comment?</p> <p>China's economic miracle is an ecological disaster. More than 80% of its rivers are biologically dead and they are extracting groundwater at rates far exceeding rates of natural recharge. Many pollinators have been lost, songbird populations have never recovered from the 1970s, and the Gobi Desert is expanding rapidly. The ecological debt will have to be paid one day.</p> <p>As for climate change, aside from some pretty banal pieces you have contributed to WUWT (I assume you and the Barry Woods there are one and the same) what unique qualifications do you possess to make substantial contributions to any scientific field?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934406&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WcBYscBTV1ddYLMBcTTGm0NvPldBJS0QrxCwQ-KnOJQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934406">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934407" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297056996"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jeff (#257), not just an ecological catastrophe, but a social one too. I spent some time visiting rural areas of Sichuan this summer as part of the development of a project on ecosystem services. The picture is dreadful - village after village was left with just the elderly and children (often, but not always, a single child per household of course). The working age people had gone to the cities to make a living, but could not afford to take the kids. The result is a generation of dreadfully socially-isolated children, and an impending decline in agricultural productivity as the elderly pass away. The old are suffering dreadfully as they are having to continue to work, and then are in grinding poverty from the point at which they can no longer look after the land.</p> <p>There is a social catastrophe unfolding in China - strangely enough the economic models in which the west is so fascinated do not capture this issue.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934407&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dVC5slEmi1NoO3Bse0USZ-l_7OBoETONKxdlFnP4xHo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GWB&#039;s nemesis (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934407">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934408" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297058696"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; "The Science is settled" is a favored strawman, frequently invoked by your 'side', without so much as a single primary sourced reference to any scientist, much less any kind of compelling argument that it is a widespread belief </p> <p>However, Vic Monckton has stated that the science is settled.</p> <p>Another case of projection.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934408&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WLdnH0qH3bepJpaRUX1mDLV52au-x-nQabFv1GQZ1fg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934408">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934409" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297059276"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Could it be us engineers are more genetically susceptiple to that terrible affliction, *Emeritus Syndrome, than scientists are?</p> <p>&gt; Posted by: Jeremy C</p> <p>I suspect it is more that a good career as a qualified engineer doesn't rely so heavily on citations and good papers in prestigious journals as it does with physicists etc.</p> <p>Therefore spouting garbage isn't as detrimental to the career whilst good relations with big business helps your career.</p> <p>Note how the still publishing "skeptical" scientists are very moderate in their denial.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934409&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ypSqbD3AvAtkys-O4mo6FVHY7bLa8dpVYl3HRDbHsb8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934409">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934410" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297060234"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re. 259 Wow</p> <p>Here's one quote, for the record...</p> <p><i>"...And Iâm going to show you the latest science, which now doesnât leave the question unsettled anymore this is now settled science, it is now settled science that there is not a problem with our influence over Climate. The science is in, the truth is out and the scare is over.â</i><br /> -- Christopher Monckton. 10/14/9 Minnesota Free Market Institute presentation</p> <p>H/T to <a href="http://citizenschallenge.blogspot.com/2010/08/examining-lord-monckton-rhetoric.html">Citizen's Challenge</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934410&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AHB41uOpnLFmTftV7MkG3ROBfO0k2-_I2NQucbKIzBI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934410">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934411" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297065351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@253 "tried passing yourself off as something your not."</p> <p>Jeremy, I'm IENG and you are a snob.</p> <p>I'm also BA(hons)Hist/Phil Sci and not only better qualified to assess scientific theories both on their scientific merit and within their societal context than you are, but also better able to conduct rational discussion concerning them too.</p> <p>I should think you can guess my opinion about where you should relocate your BSc certificate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934411&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-a_LdQGQ0MIv-rl1x-Ill-MIHw4SF0twJ94P5vLCINk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934411">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934412" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297065576"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>257<br /> I agree China is a disaster. Part of that cause for the disaster is Green Technology 'devasting the land for rare earths, for all those western windfarms..</p> <p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-c…</a></p> <p>"This toxic lake poisons Chinese farmers, their children and their land. It is what's left behind after making the magnets for Britain's latest wind turbines... and, as a special Live investigation reveals, is merely one of a multitude of environmental sins committed in the name of our new green Jerusalem"</p> <p>Read more: <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html#ixzz1DHRpIhlE">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-c…</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241872/EXCLUSIVE-Inside-Chinas-secret-toxic-unobtainium-mine.html">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1241872/EXCLUSIVE-Inside-Chinas…</a></p> <p>I said part, the rest is a dash for economic growth, fueled by coal powered powerstations and proposed nuclear. (and some wing/solar power from all sources) which returns to my point, whatver we do, (you and I) </p> <p>I believe China, India and africa will burn all their coal. we are all in the West on the sidelines. They will ignore us. Neither of us may like it, nor agree with it, but there is nothing we can do to stop them.</p> <p>"Coal makes up 70 percent of China's total primary energy consumption, and China is both the largest consumer and producer of coal in the world. China holds an estimated 114.5 billion short tons of recoverable coal reserves, the third-largest in the world behind the United States and Russia and about 13 percent of the worldâs total reserves.</p> <p>There are 27 provinces in China that produce coal. Northern China, especially Shanxi Province, contains most of China's easily accessible coal and virtually all of the large state-owned mines. Coal from southern mines tends to be higher in sulfur and ash, and therefore unsuitable for many applications. </p> <p>In 2008, China consumed an estimated 3 billion short tons of coal, representing nearly 40 percent of the world total and a 129 percent increase since 2000. Coal consumption has been on the rise in China over the last eight years, reversing the decline seen from 1996 to 2000. More than 50 percent of Chinaâs coal use in 2006 was in the non-electricity sectors, primarily in the industrial sector. The other 50 percent is used in the power sector.</p> <p>Source: <a href="http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/China/Coal.html">http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/China/Coal.html</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/31/pollution-carbon-emissions">http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/31/pollution-carbon-emis…</a></p> <p>Perhaps so you no where I am coming from, I am sceptical of carbon trading, carbon offsets, sudsidies of clean energy (massive taxes).. </p> <p>If we want to save the planets, why is the banking system wetting itself with the thought of all those lovely bonuses, commisions and rent seeking and a multi trillion dollar carbon market and the governments with a carbon taxation idea that is ripe for expolitation/corruption.</p> <p>I bought a JP Morgan carbon offset for my car, just out of curiousity... and thought.. </p> <p>why can't saving the planet be 'Not For Profit?</p> <p>That is where I'm most cynical.. Would you agree on carbon trading is NOT the solution, if for the sake of discussion, we both think we need a solution? </p> <p>If I heard some personally convincing evidence of AGW tommorrow (say 4C) </p> <p>I would be demanding solutions that are totally NOT what the politicians and bankers are doing.. Millions will be kept in poverty (fuel and otherwise).</p> <p>and by their own calculations the cost will be trilions for, an tiny tiny hundredth of a degree or 2 of temperature..</p> <p>Why not BAN flying for holiday.. Billions of the world poorest will never fly.. how can we say to them you can't have electricity, whilst we are off sking/malidives, etc,etc (I haven't flown for ten years)</p> <p>BAN all CARs over 200g/km Oh look the luxury car makers will whinge (I don't care we would be saving the planet)</p> <p>For the record I have a sports car. Yet a lightwieght, modern engined one, is just as much fun and as CO2 friendly or better than a golf.. Think ariel atom, caterham, etc..</p> <p>The future for cars is light weight, shrt trem solutions like, clever lotus range extender 90Bhp gas turbine hybrid, etc not stuck in the technology rut of oil... One good thing in car design, and the irony is that they were forced to, is car manufacturers can now produce cars with 70-80-90mpg gallon, the very similar sized car a decade ago would get halve that on average. </p> <p>Oil prices (peak oil or not, a whole different discussion) are not going to get any cheaper.. A lower O2 emmiting car, is ALSOcheaper to run, more miles for the same amount of fuel.. I'm all for saving money</p> <p>Why not stop making cars/trucks at all for a year, think of all the co2 saved, jsut spare parts..</p> <p>Of course that is ridicuous, as we have now moved from science, into politics, economics, ethics, JOBS....</p> <p>Why, not ban private jets completely.. what right do an elite have to pollute by private jet than an african nomad?</p> <p>This is why I am climate cynical..</p> <p>It is not about sceptics/ denairs vs deltoid and similar blogs. We are all an irrelevance to what is happening in the world. Some environmenatlists are waking up to this and challenging things. </p> <p>In the UK the government is due to sell of the forests, thus no doubt someone somewhere will deny the public access, whilst making some money somewhere on mananging carbon....</p> <p>I have science qualifications BSC Chemistry and MSc computing, but for the argument above - ie let us for the sake of discussion assume 4C - and my cynicism, science is not required but a view on politics, economics, corruption and ethics, etc...</p> <p>(yes I do post at Watts Up, and Bishop Hill, make of that what you will)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934412&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Dq5ZACzOL8_llYoAwdfQFwhBwuREBmuRqQgmOhBOvSQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934412">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934413" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297065950"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@254 Barnherd, at last, someone willing to debate science.</p> <p>Pity you fell at the low hurdle of spelling someone's name correctly. A crime more heinous than my pidgin written French.</p> <p>Bet I've pulled more French women with my oral French than Lord Sidcup has though.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934413&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="blerDX9PYkFFdfufLlVt2z3DXHfEO8Zhz4HgSEu4mIY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934413">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934414" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297066171"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think i have a comment stuck in a filter (more than 3 links?)</p> <p>Is it possible to agree that many of the proposed solutions from the bankers/politicians, ete are useless..</p> <p>If for the sake of argument that a solution is needed.</p> <p>Thus, I am cynical because the solutions do not solve a problem that is proposed and the solutions that might do something are ignored for political/economic reasons.</p> <p>We could be on common ground, as many who do believe in the urgent need for a solution, would also agree that the route of carbon trading, offsets, deals, etc. is the wrong one...</p> <p>IF I agreed with the need for a solution(for the sake of a discussion), I would agree with Hansen, ie a carbon tax...<br /> I also realise, politically, economically that this will never happen.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934414&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BYPinv8lZnL7tUPJsrXuxxc4W-aEKJBRkI5RA0KGVU0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934414">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934415" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297066367"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow @ 260. </p> <p>Yes, I think that does express some of the problem.</p> <p>Tallbloke,</p> <p>&gt;*Jeremy, I'm IENG and you are a snob*</p> <p>You can call me a snob but you are still misrepresenting yourself as IENG aint C.Eng and its for a reason as you have demonstrated as per the following:</p> <p>&gt;*I'm also BA(hons)Hist/Phil Sci and not only better qualified to assess scientific theories both on their scientific merit and within their societal context than you are, but also better able to conduct rational discussion concerning them too.*</p> <p>You haven't demonstrated that at anytime during this thread.</p> <p>&gt;*I should think you can guess my opinion about where you should relocate your BSc certificate.*</p> <p>Temper! How about instead you display some scientific understanding and also some undertsanding of why engineering is just not knowledge but thinking as well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934415&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ldsg839HaSsbGPmmnrRucDzLeScuvXhC9vc7REcNvlo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934415">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934416" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297067598"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@265 Ah, so IENG isn't good enough either. Your snobbery is complete.</p> <p>"You haven't demonstrated that at anytime during this thread."</p> <p>Haven't had the chance. Whenever I've tried I get told my only business here is to issue a groveling apology to the man who thinks skeptics only utter the criticisms they have about the science because of their preconceived policy positions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934416&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_OblYmCaJAe4lJHaHlwK3d-7bmb8zep8H6y3y88gqi8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934416">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934417" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297067717"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke writes: </p> <p>*Jeremy, I'm IENG and you are a snob. I'm also BA(hons)Hist/Phil Sci and not only better qualified to assess scientific theories both on their scientific merit and within their societal context than you are, but also better able to conduct rational discussion concerning them too*</p> <p>This is absolute tripe. I have a PhD (in Population Ecology), have &gt;100 papers in the scientific literature and almost 2,000 citations, was a former editor at Nature, and I still very much defer to the expertise of climate scientists who know a lot more about the field than I do or ever will. If you have any acumen you'd try and publish your 'theories' in the peer-reviewed literature than parading your ignorance on web sites like this one. Your scientific 'views' don't cut any ice here, I am afraid. These views, like those of Barry's and other rank laymen, go against those of the vast majority of thoe scientists doing the research, attending the relevant conferences and publishing in the empirical literature. </p> <p>The bottom line is you are no better qualified to assess the validity of 'scientific theories' than anyone else lacking qualifications in climate science. The difference is that Jeremy is wise enough to support the opinions of the vast majority of climate scientists. Most scientists, like myself, is out on a limb.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934417&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oLK8CkbrtUTvzPY4-02pl572TMRENFh4RmAbl9MakfE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934417">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934418" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297067859"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; If for the sake of argument that a solution is needed.</p> <p>&gt; Thus, I am cynical because the solutions do not solve a problem that is proposed and the solutions that might do something are ignored for political/economic reasons.</p> <p>That second para doesn't follow on, there's not predicate assertion that requires a "Thus". Your statement is very much of a line with:</p> <p>"If we need to move to another city. Thus I think we should wear beige".</p> <p>You also seem to have nothing but negativity.</p> <p>One of the solutions is: stop funding fossil fuels to the tune of 1/2 trillion a year.</p> <p>Another solution is: sunbidise the nascent renewable market to increase uptake and let the economies of scale kick in as happened with fossil fuel and nuclear industries when they were similarly new.</p> <p>Another solution is: reduce wasted energy.</p> <p>All three are being promoted actively in the face of great opposition (see Desmog blog for many examples).</p> <p>Why will they not work?</p> <p>And, to seed this back to Calum's point of view regarding the denialist fear of democracy being suspended, here's a denier who thinks that democracy is the problem (hence WANTS its suspension).</p> <p>I wonder what this datapoint does to that thesis?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934418&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="H2xdNEwis18-4BXH_5IubbPzbpclHZ3MeRth_jJksWU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934418">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934419" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297067943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I should have said that your views are way out on a limb, TB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I stand corrected (bloody thing deleted part of my last senetence)! The bottom line is that I would like to know how many of your 'theories' are published in scientific journals. </p> <p>A simple answer will suffice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934419&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2Mekmao2pJ-Yz6iXGMDFh4hTagJ2H0igbmQXBx3FX5E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeff Harvey (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934419">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934420" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297068310"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>climategate was about a small group of scientists NOT all scientists. </p> <p>A medical parallel - cancer reaserch scandal, with refusing to share data, etc, I think you will get the analogy.</p> <p><a href="http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/data-availability-cancer-climate/">http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/data-availability-cancer-cli…</a></p> <p>Could someone drag my comment out of the filter, as it explains to Jeff where I am coming from, we could probably agree about a lot of things, if we both got over our pre-conceptions of each other..</p> <p>It does not require science qulaifications to realise that solar farms in the UK (vs Africa, etc) are a scandal awaiting to happen. (I gave mine, in the post stuck in the fiter)</p> <p>Even in spain they have just caught solar panels generating between midnight and 7am, of course on a cloudy day, fire up those diesal generators, to get your guaranteed income as well. Green energy subsidies are disapearing across Europe...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934420&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GRp7ibJMkY2s4A5s8dMkXj5R4OpHeJ2EVONb_6jTJC0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934420">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934421" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297068364"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@260 Wow:</p> <p>Looked at from another perspective it could be that engineers are freer to give their honest opinion than the members of the self policed parade who have to toe the line with biased journal editors and the reviewers they are leaned on to use.</p> <p>Consider that we have documentary evidence of this before replying. Also consider the substance of the Institute of Physics submission to the Parliamentary committee charged with studying that evidence.<br /><a href="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/memo/climatedata/uc3902.htm">http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmsctech/mem…</a></p> <p>And before assailing me with crap about the members of the panel which drafted that submission, be warned in advance that slurs against them are easily refuted by reference to the Institute of Physics statement following the outcry from the alarmist contingent, and the personal statements of members of that advisory panel.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934421&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="40nL_MjT54FO8rILVAEv6RJyDoASnLSLY_eQzjjnBtU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934421">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934422" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297068741"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@267<br /> Sorry Jeff, the argument from authority is a logical fallacy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934422&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MUCKXoqch9QZBffPFaG82fDmFEPwXRGONBrtn_MQpVY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934422">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934423" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297069034"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Tallkook](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3230056">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3230056</a>):<br /> &gt;with biased journal editors </p> <p>Go to the open thread and provide a list of papers you believe have been unfairly rejected.</p> <p>On this thread, instead trying to derail it with more off-topic nonsense, answer the pertinent questions that you have been asked, [for example](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228161">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228161</a>):</p> <p>&gt;Why did you say that you had given Pearce a "a quick praisee" of Schmidt's email - which 'praisee' clearly wasn't accurate - when Steve McIntyre says that he saw Pearce reading Schmidt's actual email, which he says you showed Pearce?</p> <p>&gt;McIntyre isn't lying, is he?</p> <p>&gt;But if he's not lying, you were, weren't you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934423&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_uLQd67SgjW1IULCeK9pmfr-AYCVevxJ6uHbVLwcSQw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dave R (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934423">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934424" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297069303"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallcrank - [in comment #251 you were asked by Zibethicus:](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228161">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228161</a>)<br /> "How about this: Why did you say that you had given Pearce a "a quick praisee" of Schmidt's email - which 'praisee' clearly wasn't accurate - when Steve McIntyre says that he saw Pearce reading Schmidt's actual email, which he says you showed Pearce?</p> <p>McIntyre isn't lying, is he?</p> <p>But if he's not lying, you were, weren't you"?</p> <p>Perhaps you'd care to pick the logical fallacies out of your own twisted story before pointing out the mote in the eyes of others and obscuring the point of this thread.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934424&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o14RSCF7Z62rkRwhbwEGuOst2oMadB8irbWSxQYJME0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934424">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934425" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297069364"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>272</p> <p>I would qualify what tallbloke is saying</p> <p>'climate science' I percieve is too immature to have a voice of authority, ie many disagree within the IPCC consensus....</p> <p>Yet, I would agee, with a voice of authority, in this context...</p> <p><a href="http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/2/7/taxonomy.html">http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/2/7/taxonomy.html</a><br /> "there exists an established body of what I call prevailing scientific opinion."</p> <p>as there is undoubtly scientfic voice of authority, in many aspect of science. ie prevailing accepted theories.</p> <p>but, on the issue of attribution of man made CO2 being a current primary driver of climate, in 'climate science' as we have IPCC projections of temps that vary by 600%. (which we are observed to be under) and new things being learnt every day, solar, oceans, landuse, vegetation, etc,etc</p> <p>we also have 'most likely' type statements, that the IAC say were overstated in their review of IPCC statements.</p> <p>'climate science' I would argue, can not use the voice of authority to any great degree..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934425&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5uUHCPo2xtanbPI1yN0b5Wbw0C3hYfV0wVTe9VXcB38"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934425">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934426" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297070011"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@275 spell my name correctly, apologise for calling me a crank, and I'll answer your question.</p> <p>Otherwise it's sex and travel for you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934426&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C8_eWNd0iDWGuIEwNB0uL9AGJMs5tDQuwhXzjI72Jm4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934426">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934427" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297070482"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>hahahahaha</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934427&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uEt2OGWHihKhtrk59vdUg4BRbTvHqRnCHdtFCA_0i3o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934427">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934428" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297070722"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;'climate science' I would argue, can not use the voice of authority to any great degree..</p> <p>And I would argue that when a majority of scientists in the field of either climatology or earth sciences accept a prevailing theory there is a voice of authority, regardless as to how many politically motivated engineers machinists, dotty peers or fake physics majors dispute it.</p> <p>Any rational person would look at my flawless argument and agree.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934428&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EG80HvZ7vrm1svH8J8-IUKcqzyJS4bo0jqXeAoPqTrc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934428">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934429" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297071070"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@275 - You're really not in a position to demand conditions especially that which for most folk would be common decency - i.e. the truth. </p> <p>Plus, in view of your by now customary evasive and weaseling response, I think I'll get a better understanding when Deep Climate pulls together <i>all</i> the threads regarding the Lisbon circus, no doubt including your own minor part.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934429&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DChOZwgQyE9dfd9638v5P5TKqdN17u6YFTp04hoN_oU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">chek (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934429">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934430" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297071099"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I would also argue that when a particular group starts applying loaded labels to themselves like "dissenters" it becomes clear that they don't just perceive themselves as having a different opinion, they perceive themselves as fearless contrarian rebels and not driven by (shock) a desire to find truth through science.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934430&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dK3YBqr5UCtepZfI6-2KB5GuA1FF42fT7GvFOTY1M-M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934430">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934431" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297071601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Re 273 Tallbloke -- "@267 Sorry Jeff, the argument from authority is a logical fallacy."</i></p> <p>Strangely enough, you're the one using the most argument from authority here.</p> <p>As has been suggested, publish. Ryan O'Donnell and Jeff Id did so on Antarctica, so why not you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934431&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nJv01uYfhbi-8VLFwTnpEUeNYK1g18c3KW3iAjuYsPA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J Bowers (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934431">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934432" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297071666"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>281</p> <p>I would prefer 'facts through science' - not 'truths through science' ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934432&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PPyQsO6l2hDZLf2j-iAhvsCJziQan5UnUUI85ULvCMY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934432">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934433" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297071720"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@280 </p> <p>common decency? You don't show enough of that to merit any serious response.</p> <p>So you've lost interest in what you were making a big beef about a few minutes ago?</p> <p>OK.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934433&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DKzE_AQY21bPp1xk5pvGO751pchdf157EMajSPbSeDo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934433">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934434" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297072395"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Sorry Jeff, the argument from authority is a logical fallacy.</p> <p>And isn't "I'm an engineer" argument from authority (with the added bonus of being a fallacious authority)?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934434&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MPMFu0UNwKcgdnp8mAnIXY78b9gBC1XEhs8TaNFMuZk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934434">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934435" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297072692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@282<br /> Not ready yet. Working on this paper at the moment.<br /><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/47023810v8100nk0/">http://www.springerlink.com/content/47023810v8100nk0/</a></p> <p>My hunch is that once we are able to predict solar activity levels well, a lot more interest will be taken in its effects on atmospheric chemistry, affecting sea surface biology, affecting cloud nucleation, and thus ocean heat content. OHC is the biggest driver of climate(s) on Earth, and the best metric for understanding it. </p> <p>And the Sun is the biggest factor affecting OHC.</p> <p>So I'm giving up this convo for now to do some more on that, entertaining though this diversion has been.</p> <p>Bye for now.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934435&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HT8woiYwgkvk4s-nwJ4XGFxobnq3ITEULUlOm-Ui0BA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://tallbloke.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rog Tallbloke (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934435">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934436" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297072759"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If anybody else on this site uses the I'm-an-engineer-argument-from-authority once more i will take them out the back of the school dunnies and beat them senseless with a dead sheep. Good grief!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934436&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cplP_1bcMu_Dz59rW2vgLwFip2GzdxO-8CvJaGvP4Pg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934436">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934437" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297072768"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How about this: </p> <p>Why did you say that you had given Pearce a "a quick praisee" of Schmidt's email - which 'praisee' clearly wasn't accurate - when Steve McIntyre says that he saw Pearce reading Schmidt's actual email, which he says you showed Pearce?</p> <p>How many paragraphs did you have? Did you show him both?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934437&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iHhn_HipxEMHGlv3TWYxRPa6QVkPBupnOo6rF34GDjY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://hankroberts.wordpress.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Hank Roberts (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934437">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934438" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297072801"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>oops.. thanks Tim.<br /> 263 was a bit of a polemic wasn't it,<br /> sorry for not making it more concise and shorter..<br /> Time for me to disappear now, school pick up time and ballet (my 6 year old, not me!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934438&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cG_WpZaFKNjjOV2xGSuVmhykwzHARHtBb95_OGqeIUk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934438">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934439" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297073385"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallbloke @ 286</p> <p>Huh!</p> <p>The abstract you linked to sets out that the paper is about the effect orbiting bodies could have on the internal mechanisms of stars such as the sun.</p> <p>How the heck do you get a link from that to measuring solar levels at the earth environment boundary and then observing the effect of solar actvity levels on the earth's environment???</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934439&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v9CDcZrLV3GNXiDj53nXWXbjpABl6xsKZdonHi9Ny1o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934439">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934440" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297073439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Yet, I would agee, with a voice of authority, in this context...</p> <p>&gt; bishophill.squarespace.com</p> <p>Ah, another fallacious authority. He's not a bishop, you know.</p> <p>&gt; but, on the issue of attribution of man made CO2 being a current primary driver of climate, in 'climate science' as we have IPCC projections of temps that vary by 600%.</p> <p>It doesn't matter if there is a 600% range.</p> <p>2C-4.5C per doubling (not 600% btw), but if that works out to 0.8C in the median warming when all other contributions is less than 0.2C, then even taking the worst/best case to view the human contribution in the lowest possible light, you still have "man made CO2 is the current primary driver of climate".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934440&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wnO86IRYQgECUrni1JVxoWg0WHM4KgJow8sosIOHQcw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934440">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934441" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297073624"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Looked at from another perspective it could be that engineers are freer to give their honest opinion</p> <p>But why does such honest opinion require so many lies, Rog? Or, if not lies, then they are such humongous mistakes that any validity of their other opinions must be in serious question.</p> <p>Looked at another perspective, it could be that some engineers fear losing their jobs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934441&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UiMCApViZPH7O2NhwEXcjsx0QQsoxQRnFjMfa2ZsPZw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934441">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934442" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297073744"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Consider that we have documentary evidence of this before replying.</p> <p>We do?</p> <p>Where?</p> <p>PS have you read Merchants of Doubt? Or the lies about funding a "skeptic" who stood before congress made? We have plenty of documentary evidence that the same arguments were made to keep kleptocrats in money whilst they hid the dangers from their consumers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934442&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a9GIJoT5bSzatVj5cIl79eSgoM2Gv-umvPQdzBVRhwU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934442">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934443" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074001"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Tallblock](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3229769">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3229769</a>).</p> <blockquote><p>Pity you fell at the low hurdle of spelling someone's name correctly.</p></blockquote> <p>It seems to have passed over your head that I've used that spelling several times now - <i>deliberately</i>. Why do you think that is?</p> <p>And what is even more precious is that you're the guy who <i>patently</i> can't spell "précis".</p> <p>But moving to matters of science, I am still curious to know if you continue to stand by [your comment](<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228657">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228657</a>) that "Yes, it does seem that more energy seems to be going out [of the atmosphere] than coming in recently".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934443&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qZdwrji9Tm6VDQLO3WhQINdIvacLKMw29E2kjsI4NGA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bernard J. (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934443">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934444" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074021"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Barry keeps on giving (bullshit)</p> <p>&gt; we also have 'most likely' type statements, that the IAC say were overstated in their review of IPCC statements.</p> <p>IAC being a voice of authority makes this:</p> <p>&gt; 'climate science' I would argue, can not use the voice of authority to any great degree..</p> <p>rather ironic.</p> <p>And this:</p> <p>&gt; climategate was about a small group of scientists NOT all scientists. </p> <p>climategate was smoke and mirrors. That they had to butcher 0.3% of the emails and (which brings us nicely to the point of this thread) MISREPRESENT the statements to cast them in a deliberately incorrect light, it was more about how the self-proclaimed "skeptics" were nothing of the sort, since they showed no skepticism of the claims on the contents of the emails.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934444&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Mcx2xnSDoVBMhscdFdnSQtsrY4UKFhqNLFWw9-mfKyU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934444">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934445" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074209"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; It does not require science qulaifications to realise that solar farms in the UK (vs Africa, etc) are a scandal awaiting to happen.</p> <p>It does require mind reading skills to know what the heck you're on about with "scandal".</p> <p>Do you think that MPs will be found Rog-ering the scaffolding? Or will the solar panels paint a naughty picture from goatse into space?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934445&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0bLPa25YJfZjrPjFfiO8AgxMVr9sg6Pf6vy2cs6MdoA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934445">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934446" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074340"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Update 4?</p> <p><a href="http://deepclimate.org/2011/02/07/post-normal-meltdown-in-lisbon-part-1/">http://deepclimate.org/2011/02/07/post-normal-meltdown-in-lisbon-part-1/</a></p> <p>But the naivete and gullibility do not end there, for Pearce missed the truly fascinating part of the whole story. âTallblokeâsâ passing around of the email he wasnât even supposed to have was not just a supremely ironic coda to a workshop ostensibly dedicated to building trust and reconciliation (a circumstance which seems to have completely eluded the befuddled Pearce). Somehow the fringe blogger and WUWT regular managed to forge a connection between a highly respected science philosopher and the contrarian blogosphere, and then put himself in the inner circle planning the resulting workshop a year later, providing a fascinating insight into this misbegotten enterprise.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934446&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jRM8B12zQsNWB147_kVOQPljFtrFDrnPlKcTItAunH8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://DeepClimate.org" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Deep Climate (not verified)</a> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934446">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934447" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074590"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tallcrank:</p> <blockquote><p>Not ready yet. Working on this paper at the moment.</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, we know you are going to claim "it's the ether that done it and all the calculations on area of the oceans are wrong because they used pi=3.14.... instead of 4".</p> <p>What a crank this idiot is, no wonder he gets no respect here, he doesn't deserve it. Is this how all graduates of history and philosophy of science behave? Shameful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934447&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HKGJV9J_HTuzMrsUXKAyCBLB6UFa3Rm7sRuPsS_gdkY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ian Forrester (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934447">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934448" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297074641"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Apologies if the quick scan I made above didn't pick this up, but it seems the "Pearce article" has been amended:</p> <blockquote><p>who said the science was settled so there was nothing to discuss. <b>[Gavin Schmidt has asked us to clarify his reasons for not attending: see the bottom of this post.]</b><br /></p><blockquote> <p>and Gavin's e-mail contents added at the end.</p> <p>No mention of whether FP actually saw or did not see the e-mail before the piece was published.</p></blockquote> </blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934448&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ck4t2M7X3ZYsCT7aI8pjVW1AqTkO0OeTuzOChUhIlHE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">P. Lewis (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934448">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934449" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297075708"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Deep climate,</p> <p>Thanks for the link to your thread on Lisbon.</p> <p>Reading it just demonstrated for that the deniers never quit. They will shamelessly seize any opportunity to further their ideological and ego driven agenda. I found the the quotes you used quite interesting in the thought they are putting into controlling the language used to talk about AGW, climate science and science in general. Its much more subtle than anything MCarthy ever used and straight out of the warnings in the novel 1984.</p> <p>These people will stop at nothing and I'm beginning to wonder if monckton is just a diversion and we are paying too much attention to the wrong target?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934449&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FufDGeVzKsO2telg7o1AVbsDf4kgEazqKpmS9hM__DM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeremy C (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934449">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934450" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297077295"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks P. Lewis. Only took them four days and <b>still no apology</b>.</p> <p>They should also correct the part about McIntyre being a 'statistician".</p> <p>Jeremy C @300-- you could be right, who do you think we should be paying attention too? (Certainly not Roger, Barry and GSW et al.).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934450&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EdWhpAJQmc-8e7xhKMw928NuX_dMKuqAEfVZ69ZRl6Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934450">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934451" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297077478"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Roger,</p> <p>Tallbloke isn't your name, it's a pseudonym, right? You are a crank. You appropriate authority in a field in which you have no expertise. [see: Google Galileo. You espouse a 'real effect' that cannot possibly be true or we'd have satellites falling inexplicably out of the sky. Why should anyone apologize for saying what is so obviously true.</p> <p>There really is no need to answer the question. It is rhetorical. The quotations are incontestable. The only honorable thing for you to do is confess and apologize.</p> <p>Which you are apparently willing to do. Because you are dishonest.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934451&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q1msCJkA4B_NHOKIHqf_25KdfkZkaMD7dOmYz--c1KE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">luminous beauty (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934451">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934452" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297077642"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>RogTallbloke still refuses to answer the questions posed <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3228161">here</a>.</p> <p>Instead, choosing to invoke all kinds of juvenile excuses.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934452&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a8SOs4vuH2IihPpiAWxf5VDn6Tnvg2pnI_0K0w2BXYA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934452">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934453" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297078129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So this is how NewScientist decides to address an egregious error and defaming of a well-respected and prominent NASA scientist:</p> <p>"But the leaders of mainstream climate science turned down the gig, including NASA's Gavin Schmidt. who said the science was settled so there was nothing to discuss. <b>[Gavin Schmidt has asked us to clarify his reasons for not attending: see the bottom of this post.]"</b></p> <p><b>That is not a correction, nor a retraction, nor an apology.</b> They are still biasing the reader, because one can read what the text below the strikethrough. Although one could argue that to reasonable readers who read Gavin's email, NewScientist and Fred Pearce are once again demonstrating their bias.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934453&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-8a1eFTWfLICHJNCkJddBWzWC-japjfXzeMhTcZ5t4k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MapleLeaf (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934453">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934454" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297078816"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm just trying to figure out why GSW felt the need to specify not only the Universities at which he studied physics, but the buildings too. I mean, it's not like there's anything <i>unusual</i> about studying physics in the JCMB. That's where the physics department is.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934454&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JMn9E60wB7rx5rnDBCHGHFzhxCYh0_Mny1mPug2b634"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MartinM (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934454">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934455" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297078895"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The guardian is now printing articles critical of solar and wind(the guardain wouldn't have made this point a while ago)</p> <p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/06/solar-farms-threaten-green-subsidy">http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/06/solar-farms-threaten-…</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/04/wind-farms-nimbyism">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/04/wind-farms-nimbyism</a></p> <p>I think I could have a sensible discussion with J Harvey, if we could get our pre-conceptions of each other out of the way..</p> <p>As neither of us, I imagine is going to go away from our positions and we each only have One vote. Would it not be a good idea to find common ground.. Scientists are NOT politicians, economists, bankers, etc,etc. Many of these people are driving policies based on AGW, that do not make sense (in the short timescales) whether you believe or not..</p> <p>I have friends and relatives that are climates cientists and Green Party activists, we can be civilised and not leap to assumptions about individuals. Why not try here..</p> <p>Of course as I have made clear, it does not matter a jot, what is said here or at Watts Up or Bishop Hill. China, India and Africa (with the Chinese 'helping them') will do whatever they want. Which will include burning all the coal tey can, to make electricity. 2 billion people plus in those countries will demand this - ie increasing living standards. </p> <p>Given that, why sink to name calling, it does not matter what we do or say, all we can do is influence our own politicians - if that is possible (the bankers have got them all tied up)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934455&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6m0bsR9J30VBN-B9gU1qnurCBLfA5JiC7R2kyQCF0rI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Barry Woods (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934455">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934456" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297078936"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, I'd say it was a correction (certainly not an apology), but it is about as minimal as they could reasonably get away with, unless GS pushes it. And life's too short...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934456&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D24yX5kWLY1HopvuRfWe9Aap_902bSq1cek4onuO6W8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">P. Lewis (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934456">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934457" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297079562"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; Which will include burning all the coal tey can, to make electricity.</p> <p>So if you stop burning coal, there will be less coal burned.</p> <p>I would also like you to look at how many wind turbines China is producing and deploying.</p> <p>&gt; 2 billion people plus in those countries will demand this - ie increasing living standards.</p> <p>Living standards isn't US-level consumption. Sweden uses less than 1/3 of the US average despite being more entirely near the arctic circle and therefore having a higher need of it for both warmth and lighting.</p> <p>And they have a better standard of living.</p> <p>And this is ignoring the other energy production possibilities (see again about wind turbines).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934457&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1G3Lt4M55g7jQaenBPLnZc86gA9AVnbfMfSpNjWxhmI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934457">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934458" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297079885"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt; and we each only have One vote.</p> <p>CO2 doesn't count votes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934458&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Tv8Da8Ki0P2Ey9wFrAr0XXu-9jrsD5CCKTyPySKS36w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934458">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934459" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1297081300"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/02/pearcegate.php#comment-3231056">luminous beauty</a></p> <blockquote><p>Tallbloke isn't your name, it's a pseudonym, right? </p></blockquote> <p>:-) Given the propensity for (certainly some) septics to want to "out" pseudonymous bloggers, I wonder why anyone shouldn't publish Roger Tallbloke's real name. It's trivially easy to locate on the intertubes, if anyone really wants to.</p> <p><b>Across</b></p> <p>1. Over and out! It's all in tatters, apparently.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=934459&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LJims-YrCnEZ90JTJZBUMCTdVPhSaCIbAIoUJ0woTgo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">P. Lewis (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2011 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/338/feed#comment-934459">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-934460" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> &l