placebo https://scienceblogs.com/ en Does thinking make it so? The placebo myth rears its ugly head again. https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/20/does-thinking-make-it-so-the-placebo-myth-rears-its-ugly-head-again <span>Does thinking make it so? The placebo myth rears its ugly head again.</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Blogging is a funny thing. Sometimes the coincidence involved is epic. For instance, as I do on many Mondays, yesterday I crossposted a modified and updated version of a post from a week ago from my not-so-super-secret other blog. This time around, it just so happened to be a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/19/the-placebo-narrative-justifying-integrative-medicine-through-exaggeration/">post about what I like to refer to as the placebo narrative</a>. As is my wont, I described in the usual ridiculous level of detail why that narrative is so popular among promoters of pseudoscientific medical treatments and, more importantly, why that narrative is approaches black hole density bullshit. It’s something that various studies and publications that I encounter every so often require me to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/03/21/the-myth-of-placebo-effects/">revisit, re-explain, and elaborate more upon</a> based on new information. Common threads include having to point out that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/17/does-thinking-make-it-so/">thinking doesn’t make it so</a>, and that the placebo narrative as recounted by “integrative medicine” partisans has an <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/08/20/deepak-chopra-placebo-effects-and-the-secret/">uncomfortable resemblance to The Secret</a> and its <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/17/placebo-versus-the-law-of-attraction/">Law of Attraction</a>. Integrative medicine advocates even twist epigenetics to imply that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/04/13/epigenetics-does-not-mean/">The Secret is real in medicine and that thinking makes it so</a>.</p> <p>Indeed, there’s a reason why I’ve referred to The Secret as, in essence, the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/14/central-dogma-of-alternative-medicine/">central dogma of alternative medicine</a>. Basically, as more and more rigorous clinical trials fail to find specific effects of the various alternative medicine quack modalities (but I repeat myself) that “integrative medicine” mavens want to “integrate” into real medicine, rather than abandon those methods as ineffective, as we do for drugs and other treatments that fail to produce specific effects greater than placebo, they move the goalposts and switch their rationale. Now, it doesn’t matter if an <strike>alternative medicine</strike> quack modality “works” or not because, like <a href="https://youtu.be/tU1stt0okdM">Rudie</a>, it can’t fail because—<em>voilà</em>!—it <em>always</em> works through placebo effects.</p> <!--more--><p>But there’s a problem. Placebo effects depend upon the patient’s having an expectation of what a treatment will do, and there’s no way to convince a patient that an inert sugar pill (or whatever else is being used as a placebo) will do anything useful to relieve their symptoms without lying to the patient. That’s why, lately, it’s been very, very important to add to the placebo myth the myth of “placebo without deception.” Here’s where the coincidence comes in. Yesterday, on the very same day I reposted my <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/19/the-placebo-narrative-justifying-integrative-medicine-through-exaggeration/">article about placebo effects from last week</a>, what to my wondering eyes should appear but the Grand Poobah of “placebos without deception,” Ted Kaptchuk, publishing an op-ed in the LA TIMES entitled <a href="http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaptchuk-honest-placebo-20161219-story.html">‘Honest placebos’ show medicine can work without any actual medicine</a>.</p> <p>Groan.</p> <p>At first, I was tempted just to Tweet a “compare and contrast” between Kaptchuk’s latest spew and my post from yesterday, but then I realized that learning requires repetition. The cliche goes that you tell them what you’re going to tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them. I doubt I need three posts this week on the placebo narrative, but Kaptchuk’s article suggested to me that delving a bit more into the “placebo without deception” myth couldn’t hurt and might help. So let’s dig in.</p> <p>Kaptchuk, predictably, starts with the “placebo without deception” myth:</p> <blockquote><p> Placebo effects have a bad reputation in the medical world. Physicians are trained to dismiss them as misleading — as in, “it’s only a placebo effect,” or “it’s no different from a placebo effect.” Placebo is a label that marks a drug as ineffective and disqualifies research subjects who respond to “bogus” treatments. </p> <p>But what if patients who take “honest placebos” — meaning they are told explicitly that they are swallowing sugar pills — can still experience relief from discomfort and disability? That’s been the result of a number of studies by my research group at Harvard Medical School and other teams around the world over the last few years. While these trials were relatively small and short in duration, they collectively challenge our greatest assumption about placebos: that they require deception in order to be effective. </p></blockquote> <p>No. They. Do. Not.</p> <p>No. No. No. No.</p> <p>Kaptchuk even contradicts himself in describing the experiments. Basically, his description of the experiments hint at the reason why his experiments in fact demonstrate exactly the opposite of what he claims, that placebo effects do require deception:</p> <blockquote><p> In our research group’s experiments, patients with illnesses such as irritable bowel syndrome, chronic low back pain, and episodic migraine attacks were randomly assigned to one of two groups: one got an honest placebo while the other was given no treatment. Participants were generally told that placebo effects are powerful in double-blind clinical trials (in which neither patients nor researchers know what the patient is getting), but that this study would examine whether placebos still work when patients know what they are getting. We also told them they didn’t have to believe it would work.</p> <p>Many laughed and suggested we were nuts. But they agreed to try it out; most had been ill for years and were desperate for relief. The results upended the conventional wisdom. Many patients treated with an honest placebo felt significantly better. On average, irritable bowel patients reported 60% adequate relief, chronic low back suffers had 30% improvement in both pain and disability, and migraine pain was 30% lower in two hours. </p></blockquote> <p>Notice how Kaptchuk characterizes what the patients were told: That placebo effects are “powerful” in double-blind randomized clinical trials. Not exactly. I discussed all of those studies at one time or another. Here’s what he really told patients, first in the “open label placebo study” in patients with irritable bowel syndrome:</p> <blockquote><p> ...patients were told that “placebo pills, something like sugar pills, have been shown in rigorous clinical testing to produce significant mind-body self-healing processes. </p></blockquote> <p>With recruitment fliers saying:</p> <blockquote><p> Participants were recruited from advertisements for “a novel mind-body management study of IBS” in newspapers and fliers and from referrals from healthcare professionals. During the telephone screening, potential enrollees were told that participants would receive “either placebo (inert) pills, which were like sugar pills which had been shown to have self-healing properties” or no-treatment. </p></blockquote> <p>Telling patients that placebos have powerful or significant “mind-body self-healing” properties is a bit different from saying vaguely that placebos are “powerful” in randomized clinical trials. Then, in the study looking at placebos versus the drug Maxalt for migraines, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/15/still-more-oversold-placebo-research-from-our-old-friend-ted-kaptchuk/">this is what subjects were told</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Our first goal is to understand why Maxalt makes you pain-free in one attack but not in another. Our second goal is to understand why placebo pills can also make you pain-free. Our third goal is to understand why Maxalt works differently when given in double-blind study vs. real-life experience when you take it at home. </p></blockquote> <p>I repeat for emphasis: “Our second goal is to understand <em>why placebo pills can also make you pain-free</em>.” Not to see <em>if</em> placebo pills can make you pain free or to understand why placebo pills <em>might be able to make you pain-free</em> or could <em>possibly make you pain free</em>. “<strong><em>Can</em> make you pain free</strong>.” To be fair, this isn’t quite as blatant as the IBS study in which subjects were told that placeboes could produce “powerful mind-body effects.” It’s still “priming the pump,” though, rather blatantly.</p> <p>Not as blatantly as Kaptchuk’s most recent study, though, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/10/18/rehashing-the-myth-of-placebo-without-deception/">looking at placebos for low back pain</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> After informed consent, all participants were asked if they had heard of the “placebo effect” and explained in an approximately 15-minute a priori script, adopted from an earlier OLP study,18 the following “4 discussion points”: (1) the placebo effect can be powerful, (2) the body automatically can respond to taking placebo pills like Pavlov dogs who salivated when they heard a bell, (3) a positive attitude can be helpful but is not necessary, and (4) taking the pills faithfully for the 21 days is critical. All participants were also shown a video clip (1 minute 25 seconds) of a television news report, in which participants in an OLP trial of irritable bowel syndrome were interviewed (excerpted from: <a href="http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382">http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382</a>). </p></blockquote> <p>I know. I know. I just <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/19/the-placebo-narrative-justifying-integrative-medicine-through-exaggeration/">used this one yesterday</a>, but it’s worth repeating. Compare and contrast. Compare and contrast, my friends. And repetition, but hopefully not too much repetition.</p> <p>Kaptchuk also exaggerates the level of symptom relief experienced. For example, here is how the results were described in <a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015591">the actual IBS paper</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Open-label placebo produced significantly higher mean (±SD) global improvement scores (IBS-GIS) at both 11-day midpoint (5.2±1.0 vs. 4.0±1.1, p</p></blockquote> <p>I find it rather interesting that the way Kaptchuk chose to frame his results in the actual manuscript, compared to how he describes his results in this op-ed (and has described it in pretty much every interview in the lay press that I’ve seen where he mentiones this study). One wonders whether saying that 60% of subjects taking placebos felt better compared to 35% receiving regular care feeling better sounds more convincing that citing improvement scores as unimpressive as the ones listed above. The reason is that I very much wonder whether the improvements reported are clinically significant. For instance, in the main result reported, those in the notreatment arm reported an average IBS-GIS of 4 (no change). In the Open Placebo arm, the average reported was 5 (Slightly Improved). How clinically relevant is this? I don’t know, but I have suspicions that such a small change skirts the borders of clinical relevance and might not even achieve it.</p> <p>As far as the migraine study with Maxalt and placebo, <a href="http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/6/218/218ra5.short">let’s go to the paper</a> as well, to look at something Kaptchuk tends not to mention, namely the second endpoint examined, specifically whether or not the subject was pain free after 2.5 hours:</p> <blockquote><p> Unlike the primary endpoint, the proportion of participants who were pain-free during the no-treatment condition (0.7%) was not statistically different from when participants took open-label placebo (5.7%). As with the primary endpoint, the proportion of participants pain-free after treatment was not statistically different between Maxalt treatment mislabeled as placebo (14.6%) and placebo treatment mislabeled as Maxalt (7.7%). The resulting therapeutic gain (that is, drug-placebo difference) was 8.8 percentage points under “placebo” labeling [odds ratio (OR), 2.80], 26.6 percentage points under “Maxalt or placebo” labeling (OR, 7.19), and 24.6 percentage points under “Maxalt” labeling (OR, 5.70). </p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">As I noted at the time</a>, the critical finding here is that Maxalt beat any sort of placebo effect, and not by a little bit, either. For all the Maxalt groups, the percentage of subjects who were pain free was 25.5% compared to 6.7% for all the placebo groups. That’s nearly a four-fold difference. Also note that the no treatment condition was not statistically different from the open-label placebo condition. The error bars were quite large, as well. Another problem with the study was that the authors made no effort to assess expectancy because they were afraid of causing patients to question the accuracy of the information provided on the envelopes. The lack of assessment of expectancy greatly decreases the utility of this study and the ability to generalize from it. Worse, no assessment of blinding was performed because the investigators were worried that this, too, would provoke suspicions in an in-study design. Quite frankly, I did not find this a convincing excuse.</p> <p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5113234/">As for the third study</a>, I didn’t <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/10/18/rehashing-the-myth-of-placebo-without-deception/">discuss the magnitude of pain relief</a> from “open label placebo” as much as I should have in my original discussion of the study. I more or less took Kaptchuk’s description at face value, which was a failing on my part that I’m happy to remedy today. First, Kaptchuk used a composite scale that assessed pain intensity by asking participants to rate their pain using 3 standard Numeric Rating Scales, ranging from 0 (“no pain”) to 10 (“worst pain imaginable”), scoring maximum pain, minimum pain, and usual pain. The mean of the 3 measures was their primary pain outcome. If you dig into the actual tables, the results are less impressive. The changes in pain in each of the three measures used to construct the composite score ranged from 0.54 to 2.15 on a scale of 10. Even the authors point out that these are likely to be barely clinically significant, pointing out that a 30% reduction has been recommended as an indication of clinical significance and open label placebo just barely achieved that. And, of course, there’s still the sticky issue of having to lie to the patient.</p> <p>Kaptchuk concludes with a distillation of the placebo narrative that contains the seeds of its own refutation:</p> <blockquote><p> Patients are open to safe self-healing methods such as honest placebos, according to survey research. But are doctors? Even if the evidence for honest placebos continues to grow, physicians may resist despite the obvious advantages: lower cost, lower risk, no side effects. Placebo treatment just goes against their years of training and reliance on medications. Patients likely will have to ask for placebo treatment and get their doctors on board.</p> <p>That said, prescribing sugar pills is not the only way physicians can harness the power of self-healing. Placebo effects are most pronounced when patients interact with caring and empathetic doctors and nurses; when they feel skilled hands touch them; when they perform time-honored medical rituals and observe tools and symbols of healing; and when they are comforted with reassurance, support and hope. </p></blockquote> <p>See? It’s not the patients who are resistant to using placebos! It’s those hidebound, dogmatic doctors who believe that treatments should be science-based and who have the temerity to consider it unethical to lie to patients (or to grossly exaggerate or mischaracterize placebo effects). Now here’s the refutation. Yes! We know placebo effects can be enhanced by empathy and the “human touch.” In other words, good bedside manner matters. That means that we don’t have to lie to patients or exaggerate by calling placebo effects “powerful mind-body self-healing” or other such woo babble (again, like technobabble in Star Trek, only with woo). All we have to do is to use empathy and the human touch in concert with real, honest-to-goodness treatments shown through science to be effective against whatever the patient has, no need even for a little shading of the truth or lying about sugar pills (or alternative medicine treatments) to patients.</p> <p>Of course, Ted Kaptchuk and his acolytes will never, ever accept that solution, because doing so would require them to admit that the quackery they so badly want to “integrate” into science-based medicine is ineffective, which would basically eliminate the specialty of integrative medicine.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Mon, 12/19/2016 - 21:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/integrative-medicine" hreflang="en">integrative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo-myth" hreflang="en">placebo myth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo-narrative" hreflang="en">placebo narrative</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery" hreflang="en">quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ted-kaptchuk" hreflang="en">Ted Kaptchuk</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348821" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482210481"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Am I right to infer that these are all subjectively experienced clinical features patients giving responses to 'please' researchers in the context of the study rather than actually feeling better would all get rolled up into the claimed 'placebo effect' in Kaptchuk's studies?</p> <p>He has also, by his recruitment strategy seeded his trial with suggestible/compliant subjects who are prone to give confirmatory responses. </p> <p>And with all those advantages, the placebo effect looks pretty puny.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348821&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GPvUe2hYbHtBuleo6DifKXJv1M9WnfwY5wLHTWgsh7s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BadlyShavedMonkey (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348821">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348822" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482210609"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>[Damn me for formatting replies on a little iPhone screen]</p> <p>Am I right to infer that these are all subjectively experienced clinical features? Patients giving responses to 'please' researchers in the context of the study rather than actually feeling better would all get rolled up into the claimed 'placebo effect' in Kaptchuk's studies.</p> <p>He has also, by his recruitment strategy seeded his trial with suggestible/compliant subjects who are prone to give confirmatory responses. </p> <p>And with all those advantages, the placebo effect looks pretty puny.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348822&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EiEIXny_ZBncdhQ5Fq9XEH_lqlcIqorSmpI5B7U8_t4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BadlyShavedMonkey (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348822">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348823" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482216678"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It is interesting that these researchers chose to look at GI symptoms, which are strongly influenced by emotional factors, even in patients with actual diseases. They also tend to be quite subjective. I suspect that if they had chosen to look at an objective end point in some other condition, perhaps one based upon a laboratory value, they would have had much more difficulty spinning their results.</p> <p>Orac or his double should send a long letter to the editor to the LA Times in response. It would be interesting to see if it got published. I suspect that someone there has an agenda, so perhaps it would not.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348823&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W1vVuugV7NegnN0VU7OFbU6A_Qhx0J9RcKyBhPO9eVU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Finder, MD (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348823">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348824" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482216715"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And yes, I misspelled my own name in the previous comment. Groan.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348824&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7f3VVtwIF1xrOOG5mWAfQaVJ__8G3w_TIgmC2PSVBUk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Finfer, MD (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348824">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348825" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482220263"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Orac<br /> "There’s no way to convince a patient that an inert sugar pill (or whatever else is being used as a placebo) will do anything useful to relieve their symptoms without lying to the patient. "<br /> - There's a way: the doctor must believe in the power of the sugar pill! What we need is to train physicians stupid enough to believe in the power of inert sugar pills. Maybe one day Universities funded by the Homeopathy pharma will select their MD students according to this criterion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348825&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QLoF3tkoNtwENoaXXAqDzA-XyRNyPFVUiobrSLjEKCQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348825">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348826" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482221606"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Part of the problem is that during the consent process, patients hear what they want to hear. See PMID: 27174578. In Kaptchuk's trial, he overloaded the consent with "good news" about the power of treatment, and de-emphasized accurate description of the lack of content of his placebo. So, of course, many patients heard only that they would receive a pill that will make them better. What was missing was a test of patient comprehension. In essence, what he proved is that you can hide a complex true statement in a thicket of confounding and misleading statements.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348826&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ARgly2QV2U5ZjdLJgY-fjg-Syo0F_79_sq-j17FcaFE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">David (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348826">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348827" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482223515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Michael Finfer, MD @ 4, that smell clunker gets us all from time to time.<br /> Oh! That's spell checker!<br /> Dammit. ;)</p> <p>@Orac, so a statistically insignificant number of a statistically insignificant number of pre-selected participants, selected for suggestibility and psychosomatic complaints, managed to prove a week - at a level of noise to signal in this study and hence, that is significant.<br /> Yes?<br /> One ponders what any peer review would say.<br /> I'm thinking, "Bird cage liner" for the ultimate destination of the paper.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348827&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ObnZdgG1NWVPDDvX9d8jJt4jYIaU2WnbQFaH5SS4pxY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wzrd1 (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348827">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348828" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482226976"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are placebos and then there are <i>woocebos</i>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348828&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="V01xIxroTw0vFrK8Ml6KcwvhEYDohUjGIHf9gMUO8t0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lighthorse (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348828">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348829" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482232502"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> There’s a way: the doctor must believe in the power of the sugar pill!</p></blockquote> <p>Ah yes, the old "it's not lying if you believe it" dodge. I'm not familiar with the laws in your jurisdiction, so maybe it would work there. Here in the US the typical phrasing of such laws is, "... knew, or should have known, ...." A medical doctor should know that a placebo will have no pharmaceutical effect, so just because he believes it will doesn't mean he is justified in making claims that it will.</p> <p>To illustrate this distinction, consider the contrast between claiming in 1998 that vaccines might cause autism versus making the same claim today. In 1998 the Wakefield et al. Lancet study had just been published, and the fact that it was based on fraudulent data would not be discovered for several years. So in 1998 a reasonable person could have believed that there was evidence of vaccines causing autism. Now that Wakefield et al. has been thoroughly debunked (in addition to being based on fraudulent data, the finding was never replicated by any researcher not connected with Wakefield), it is no longer reasonable to believe that claim.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348829&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7A9p-DGd2ybuELboJbzKcW2HYFSh69ywXweeKXptml8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348829">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348830" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482233224"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Placebo narrative and patents:</p> <p>System and method for reducing the placebo effect in controlled clinical trials Fava, et al. 8,219,419, July 10, 2012</p> <p><a href="http://www.google.ch/patents/US8219419">http://www.google.ch/patents/US8219419</a></p> <p>The inventors write, "It has been suggested that addressing the placebo response issue is one of the most important challenges facing the future of industry-sponsored psychopharmacologic drug development. "</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348830&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3HoqBOJpY15f-2YZv5uHL1KgL44EYiS3Llqvbekd6gg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348830">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348831" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482234663"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>These were patented as well, it doesn't mean that they worked as intended and in some cases, worked at all.<br /><a href="http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/devindx.htm">http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/devindx.htm</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348831&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ocqs3IXKc6Q8eBBVCwZhybmzBkaQvohlQo7oTywJcWw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wzrd1 (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348831">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1348830#comment-1348830" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael J. Dochniak (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348832" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482240830"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Eric<br /> "A medical doctor should know that a placebo will have no pharmaceutical effect". What about homeopathy? If a medical doctor thinks that homeopathy has an effect, what does the US law say? Is there any information that has been concealed to him as in the Wakefield case?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348832&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ihAZD3_ccoMvhaRBU3glKotneSIgXaNY-9h-U3cmiNY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348832">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348833" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482243427"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>psychopharmacologic</p></blockquote> <p>It's difficult to know exactly what you're saying here. It's just that your history suggests that it's shit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348833&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q-kUYiq-V7mVkmGr4FlkxZwiqd2nVaMUVGYHHkmEFLM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348833">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348834" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482246810"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Daniel@12: Anybody who has had high school chemistry should know that Avogadro's number is finite, and therefore that homeopathy is bunk. I tend to let Hahnemann of the hook because in his day Avogadro's number wasn't known (Avogadro, who was a contemporary, did not know the number, only that it was finite). More recent homeopaths--especially the ones who came after quantum mechanics was shown to explain almost all of chemistry and a big chunk of physics--are not entitled to that charity.</p> <p>Of course, IANAL, TINLA, and even if it were it would be worth at most what you paid for it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348834&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FEzGRh13yoE6jFGNPM3j3AOxgXnyEXhFtcsLV0Gd4jU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348834">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348835" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482249062"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Eric<br /> Even if they are told that Avogadro's number is finite, they may think that molecules do not explain everything and since they believe there is an effect, it is not a problem for them. I am convinced that most of the doctors specialized in homeopathy really believe it works.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348835&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lOnUbNa0RdLYBHuueyUWJEE7n51qgaEUn7rjEYSsU2c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348835">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348836" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482255027"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rich - that goes to mood and behavior effects, whereas neuropsycho would be changes on neural cell function. Not that mjd actually has an understanding, as he's just cutting and pasting.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348836&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wuy0FanyObc_ovzBDM7orhWbsT2nonjxDMOUzrg4Zds"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MarkN (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348836">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348837" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482257199"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Way OT here, but a *very* common printer, which is extremely popular with hospital pharmacies and retail pharmacies has a recall on the power supply for the label printer.<br /> Zebra printers manufactured between October 1, 2010 and December 31, 2011 may be effected.<br /><a href="https://www.zebra.com/us/en/power-supply-recall.html">https://www.zebra.com/us/en/power-supply-recall.html</a></p> <p>Three fires have been reported, with one fire damaging the workspace and printer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348837&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vdli2azqs8WRymSDPMp2H7-wyeJwDwe9dGnQ-diK-eU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wzrd1 (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348837">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348838" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482266710"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Daniel #15 Which really doesn't make it any better. Being self deluded is not a defense for selling overpriced water.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348838&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZqBdr3opElULDu2E7MakJR8VvsBbAjo6ypwUHvVn7fw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348838">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348839" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482276800"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) Selling overpriced: all the luxury industry is based on overpricing.<br /> 2) If a MD is self deluded why wouldn't a judge be deluded too?<br /> 3) The initial post was about the fact that the idiot is not lying.<br /> Finally, as I said in RI already, if a MD believes in homeopathy, it is better if he does not prescribe active drugs.<br /> The real problem is to give degrees to students lacking judgement.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348839&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WFfcisGVz5J9SMksnSCtH5XpIePOsozNbEDF2MyfSx0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348839">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348840" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482285451"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>BadlyShavedMonkey @1 &amp; 2</p> <p>IIRC, and I really cannot face rummaging back through Kaptchuk's papers at the moment (it's still dark here and I haven't finished my first coffee), they are all self-report...</p> <p>Cue rant about use of self-report in any medical research without the back up of even a semi-objective measure...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348840&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_WAEDOZg3QNavsehEg61tSpRgcNpNvBAWskDjJeSUS8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Murmur (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348840">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/12/20/does-thinking-make-it-so-the-placebo-myth-rears-its-ugly-head-again%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 20 Dec 2016 02:00:26 +0000 oracknows 22454 at https://scienceblogs.com The placebo narrative: Justifying integrative medicine through exaggeration https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/12/19/the-placebo-narrative-justifying-integrative-medicine-through-exaggeration <span>The placebo narrative: Justifying integrative medicine through exaggeration</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I write quite a bit about <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/?s=%22placebo+effects%22">placebo effects</a>. Of course, part of the reason is that <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/studying-placebo-effects/">placebo effects are just plain interesting</a> from a <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/benedetti-on-placebos/">scientific perspective</a>. After all, if one can relieve symptoms with inert sugar pills or other ineffective interventions because of the power of expectation, that’s something we should want to understand. Also, given the mission of this blog, another major reason is that placebo effects are inextricably bound to the question of whether the alternative medicine modalities that are being “integrated” into medicine through the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/28/on-the-evolution-of-quackery/">brand of integrative medicine</a> actually have any useful therapeutic effects or not, aside from placebo effects. Of course, as we’ve discussed time and time again, pretty much all “complementary and alternative medicine” (CAM) or “integrative” medicine modalities that are not herbal medicine, nutrition, or exercise (which can have measurable physiological effects due to understandable physical mechanisms) have no detectable effects above and beyond placebo effects, no matter how much proponents of integrative medicine try to show that they do. There’s a reason why, given the utter implausibility of many of these treatments, such as homeopathy, reiki, and the like, I refer to integrative medicine as “integrating” quackery with real medicine; that is, when integrative medicine is not rebranding perfectly respectable science-based modalities like diet and exercise as somehow “alternative” or “integrative,” so that they can claim at least some efficacious modalities in their armamentarium and thereby imply that the quackery has value too.</p> <!--more--><p> That’s why I was so disturbed when a reader e-mailed me a link to a credulous article in <cite>National Geographic</cite> that basically promotes every pseudoscientific trope about acupuncture entitled, "<a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/placebo-health-science-brain-suggestible-you-erik-vance/">Here's What Placebos Can Heal—And What They Can't</a>" by Simon Worrall, with the subtitle "The latest research in biochemistry reveals that your brain can actually self-medicate." Yes, that’s like waving the proverbial cape in front of the proverbial bull, particularly given how ScienceBlogs was for a time in essence owned by National Geographic. The article is an interview with Erik Vance about his new book, <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Suggestible-You-Curious-Science-Transform/dp/1426217897/"><cite>Suggestible You: The Curious Science of Your Brain’s Ability to Deceive, Transform, and Heal</cite></a>. Its blurb is not encouraging:</p> <blockquote><p>This riveting narrative explores the world of placebos, hypnosis, false memories, and neurology to reveal the groundbreaking science of our suggestible minds. Could the secrets to personal health lie within our own brains? Journalist Erik Vance explores the surprising ways our expectations and beliefs influence our bodily responses to pain, disease, and everyday events. Drawing on centuries of research and interviews with leading experts in the field, Vance takes us on a fascinating adventure from Harvard’s research labs to a witch doctor’s office in Catemaco, Mexico, to an alternative medicine school near Beijing (often called “China’s Hogwarts”). Vance’s firsthand dispatches will change the way you think—and feel.</p> <p>Expectations, beliefs, and self-deception can actively change our bodies and minds. Vance builds a case for our “internal pharmacy”—the very real chemical reactions our brains produce when we think we are experiencing pain or healing, actual or perceived. Supporting this idea is centuries of placebo research in a range of forms, from sugar pills to shock waves; studies of alternative medicine techniques heralded and condemned in different parts of the world (think crystals and chakras); and most recently, major advances in brain mapping technology. Thanks to this technology, we're learning how we might leverage our suggestibility (or lack thereof) for personalized medicine, and Vance brings us to the front lines of such study.</p></blockquote> <p>You know, someone should tell whoever wrote the blurb that being referred to as “Hogwarts” is <em>not</em> a good thing in medicine. Of course, I can’t resist indulging in one of my favorite quips here regarding Hogwarts and alternative medicine: What’s the difference between magic Harry Potter’s world and alternative medicine? In Harry Potter’s world, magic works. Alternative medicine, not so much.</p> <p>Unfortunately, this article promotes what we at SBM have come to refer to as the “placebo narrative” in apologia for integrative medicine. If what Vance says in his interview reflects what’s in his book (and there’s no reason to think it doesn’t), then the book is basically promoting the same message. Before I look at the interview itself, though, let’s recap what we mean by the “placebo narrative.”</p> <h2>The placebo narrative</h2> <p>I consider it a truism that, as more and more rigorous clinical trials with proper blinding and controls show that popular alternative medicine modalities like acupuncture, reiki, and the like that are furiously being “integrated” into medicine have no detectable specific effects on any disease or condition distinguishable from placebo effects, increasingly integrative medicine proponents have shifted to arguing that that’s OK, that these modalities actually work through the “power of placebo.” Thus was born what Steve Novella has referred to as the “<a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-narrative/">placebo narrative</a>.” I like that term, but I sometimes refer to the placebo narrative as the myth that “<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/17/does-thinking-make-it-so/">thinking makes it so</a>,” which is the basis for the rebranding of integrative medicine as harnessing “<a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-rebranding-of-cam/">the power of placebo</a>” or, alternatively, the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/15/still-more-oversold-placebo-research-from-our-old-friend-ted-kaptchuk/">power of positive thinking</a>. Never mind that it’s <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/10/15/in-the-pages-of-nature-a-full-throated-defense-of-integrating-quackery-into-medicine/">highly questionable whether it’s ever worthwhile</a> to do so and that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/18/dangerous-placebo-medicine-in-asthma/">trying to use placebo effects</a> to intervene in real disease processes could potentially have <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/asthma-placebo-and-how-not-to-kill-your-patients/">deadly consequences</a> by making the patient think he feels better without actually affecting the underlying pathology.</p> <p>That’s not to say that there aren’t still believers out there trying to demonstrate <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/bait-and-switch-acupuncture-studies/">through “bait and switch” studies</a> that, for example, acupuncture is <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/systematic-review-claims-acupuncture-as-effective-as-antidepressants-part-1-checking-the-past-literature/">more potent than antidepressants</a> (<a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-acupuncture-as-effective-as-antidepressants-part-2-blinding-readers-who-try-to-get-an-answer/">it’s not</a>); that acupuncture is effective in relieving hot flashes, be they due to menopause or breast cancer chemotherapy or hormonal therapy (no, it <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-menopause-a-tale-of-two-acupuncture-studies/">doesn’t work</a> for <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-for-menopausal-symptoms/">either</a>); or that acupuncture is effective in improving the pregnancy rate in women undergoing <em>in vitro</em> fertilization (<a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-trilogy-of-acupuncture-terror/">it’s not</a>). There are even meta-analyses claiming that acupuncture “works.” One meta-analysis by Andrew Vickers claiming that acupuncture is effective for pain, is cited almost as gospel by acupuncture advocates, even though its methodological deficiencies are significant and the effect “detected” is almost certainly not clinically significant, issues detailed by <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/an-acupuncture-meta-analysis/">Steve Novella</a>, <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-never-meta-analysis-i-really-like/">Mark Crislip</a>, and, of course, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/09/12/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo-can-we-2012-edition/">yours truly</a>. (Let’s just say that the corresponding author of that study <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/03/08/author-of-the-acupuncture-metaanalysis-lambastes-sceptics/">did not take the criticism well</a>.) I could go on, but you get the idea. In fact, I’d argue that it’s <em>because</em> of how difficult it has been for acupuncture advocates to show that acupuncture and other alternative therapies work for anything that the narrative has shifted to placebos. It’s also why integrative medicine advocates like pragmatic trials so much.</p> <p>Still, those who still think various highly implausible alternative medicine treatments actually work notwithstanding, increasingly the placebo narrative has become the dominant message among integrative medicine advocates to explain how the woo in integrative medicine “works.” Basically, any time you hear someone referring to the “mind-body” connection, they’re invoking a disguised form of the placebo narrative, wrapped in discredited mind-body dualism to boot.</p> <h2>The problem with the placebo narrative</h2> <p>As you might imagine if you’ve been reading SBM a while, there’s a problem with the placebo narrative—many problems, actually. These fall into two categories, in general: The scientific and the ethical. The ethical problem is easy to understand, and it’s very, very daunting for the promoters of the placebo narrative. Basically, in medicine it is very unethical to lie to patients, and inducing placebo effects requires lying to patients. Period.</p> <p>That’s why integrative medicine believers have made such an effort to provide evidence that it is not actually necessary to lie to patients to induce placebo effects. The big name in integrative medicine who has done the most to promote this narrative of “placebos without deception” is without a doubt Ted Kaptchuk at Harvard. Indeed, Kaptchuk has tried repeatedly to demonstrate that it is possible to trigger placebo effects “without deception,” and three of his clinical trials are the ones often cited to argue that placebo effects don’t require lying to the patient. Unfortunately, it takes very little in the way of a critical reading of all three studies to realize that there was indeed deception in them, as well as selection bias. The advertising and the consent forms for both trials basically served the purpose of the physician telling a patient that the treatment would work. For instance, in one of Kaptchuk’s studies, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">which tested placebo pills on patients with irritable bowel syndrome</a> (a syndrome very sensitive to placebo effects) emphasized how “placebo pills, something like sugar pills, have been shown in rigorous clinical testing to produce significant mind-body self-healing processes.” Another of his studies, which <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/15/still-more-oversold-placebo-research-from-our-old-friend-ted-kaptchuk/">tested the drug Maxalt versus placebo pills for their effect on migraine headache symptoms</a>, included in its language about the placebo: “Our second goal is to understand why placebo pills can also make you pain-free.” Not to understand why placebo pills might be able to make you pain-free or could possibly make you pain free. “Can make you pain free." The other study, billed an <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/10/18/rehashing-the-myth-of-placebo-without-deception/">open-label placebo trial for chronic low back pain</a>, included this language:</p> <blockquote><p>After informed consent, all participants were asked if they had heard of the “placebo effect” and explained in an approximately 15-minute a priori script, adopted from an earlier OLP study, the following “4 discussion points”: (1) the placebo effect can be powerful, (2) the body automatically can respond to taking placebo pills like Pavlov dogs who salivated when they heard a bell, (3) a positive attitude can be helpful but is not necessary, and (4) taking the pills faithfully for the 21 days is critical. All participants were also shown a video clip (1 minute 25 seconds) of a television news report, in which participants in an OLP trial of irritable bowel syndrome were interviewed (excerpted from: <a href="http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382">http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382</a>).</p></blockquote> <p>So basically, they used the same talking points from the previous study, plus clips from a news reports about happy study participants to prime the patients that placebo effects can be “powerful.” In pretty much every study of “placebo without deception,” you will find a problem like this.</p> <p>None of this doesn’t mean that the science of placebo effects isn’t worth studying. The problem is that integrative medicine proponents have taken over much of the research and tried to make it conform to their preferred narrative</p> <h2>Enter Erik Vance</h2> <p>When I encountered Worrall’s interview with Vance on NatGeo, I thought Vance’s name sounded vaguely familiar. A quick search revealed him to be a science writer whose work has appeared in <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/authors/erik-vance"><cite>Discover</cite></a> and the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/health/22prof.html"><cite>New York Times</cite></a>. When I saw how much Vance has written about placebo effects before, I was surprised that, as far as I could tell, neither I nor any of the other SBM bloggers had written about one of his articles before, particularly given that he’s written articles like "<a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/14-why-nothing-works">Power of the Placebo</a>," complete with a placebo narrative trope, 'Once dismissed as a curiosity, the placebo effect is now recognized as the key to the brain's "inner pharmacy." If only doctors knew how to open the medicine cabinet.' Is it? Is it really?</p> <p>In the introduction to the <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/placebo-health-science-brain-suggestible-you-erik-vance/">interview</a>, Worrall informs us a bit about Vance, including that he trained as a biologist but had been raised in a Christian Science household. That’s probably why Worrall’s first question was about whether faith healing actually can work, to which Vance answered:</p> <blockquote><p>Wow, that’s tough! I was brought up in Christian Science, which, at its heart, believes that the world, including our bodies, is a reflection of our minds. So, if you change your mind, you can change your body.</p> <p>Growing up in Christian Science I saw a lot of healings, which piqued and sustained my interest in this subject. I saw people who claimed to be healed of cancer, or a guy who cut off his toe and the toe grew back. But my hope for this book is not to prove or disprove these things I saw as a child. Do placebos and the power of the mind work? What I’ve found is yes, but not with everything. There are rules and conditions in which healing can be incredibly effective. Parkinson’s, chronic pain, irritable bowel syndrome, depression, anxiety, certain types of asthma, and autoimmune deficiencies are all very placebo-responsive. But cancer is not.</p> <p>Christian Science, homeopathy, or other unproven alternative medicines may make someone feel better, but when it comes to curing a life-threatening tumor, that isn’t an appropriate place to be using these methods.</p></blockquote> <p>At least Vance isn’t completely unreasonable. At least he attributes some limitations to placebo medicine. (Would that some others were a bit more circumspect!) He’s also not antivaccine, as we learn when he states that his kids have all their shots and how he understands how vaccines work and therefore has full faith in them. In fact, part of the problem with the placebo narrative is how it’s taken in people who believe themselves to be scientific and who are generally pretty reasonable.</p> <p>Vance is, however, dead wrong about asthma being particularly placebo-responsive—and my choice of the word “dead” is intentional because placebo medicine could easily lead to the death of asthmatic patients. Indeed it’s worth expanding a bit on a point to state that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/18/dangerous-placebo-medicine-in-asthma/">one of Kaptchuk’s own studies</a> showed just how dangerous using placebo effects in asthma is. The CliffsNotes version is that placebos made asthma patients undergoing an asthma attack feel as though they were breathing better, but the cold, hard evidence from incentive spirometry showed that their breathing function did not improve. As Peter Lipson pointed out, that’s <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/asthma-placebo-and-how-not-to-kill-your-patients/">a good way to kill a patient</a>, because that patient could feel less short of breath even though he is on the verge of respiratory collapse.</p> <p>Vance is not incorrect when he discusses how placebo effects impact Parkinson’s disease:</p> <blockquote><p>Parkinson’s is the perfect disease to talk about placebos. It is a chronic deficiency of dopamine, which is one of those brain chemicals that does a lot of jobs in our bodies. One of [dopamine’s] important roles is in reward processing: how we think about good things we might get in the future.</p> <p>Expectation drives placebos. And dopamine is a chemical that’s very responsive to our expectations. Parkinson’s happens to be a deficiency in the very chemical that’s very important in placebo effects and rewards.</p> <p>If you look at Alzheimer’s, which does not have a high placebo response, you start to see that there are rules at play when it comes to placebos. It’s not your brain magically doing all these crazy things. There are certain chemicals we have access to and others we don’t.</p></blockquote> <p>It is true that clinical trials of Parkinson’s disease do report significant placebo effects. For example, <a href="http://www.pdf.org/summer12_placebo">Dr. Christopher Goetz examined 11 clinical trials</a> with 858 patients and found that in drug trials 0-27% of patients experienced improvement in their symptomatology, while in surgical trials the number could be as high as 42%. (More invasive placebos produce more significant placebo effects.) Overall, 16% of patients in the placebo groups of the trials experienced improvement. Of course, I would point out that most patients with a serious disease would not be particularly happy to have only a 16% chance of improving due to a treatment. Yes, there are pharmaceuticals that are that poorly effective, usually against bad diseases, but those are exactly the drugs that integrative medicine proponents often rail against—with some justification. Yet here, Vance likes an intervention that produces such a modest result.</p> <p>He also doesn’t consider that even that modest result is probably illusory.</p> <h2>The illusion of placebo effects</h2> <p>One thing not mentioned here is that placebo effects can only be quantified in clinical trials, which are, by their nature, highly artificial treatment situations. We at SBM often point out that it’s incorrect to refer to “the placebo effect,” because there is not just one placebo effect. Instead, we refer to placebo <em>effects</em>. Much of what is lumped together as “the placebo effect” include study artifacts that have little or no bearing on real world outcomes and/or modulation of the patient’s perception of his symptoms. Indeed, there are those who question, based on evidence, whether there is even such a thing as placebo effects. For example, in 2001 Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche published an article in which they asked whether <a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106">the placebo was powerless</a> based on 214 studies with a total of 8,525 patients in which they concluded:</p> <blockquote><p>We found little evidence in general that placebos had powerful clinical effects. Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain. Outside the setting of clinical trials, there is no justification for the use of placebos.</p></blockquote> <p>In support of the idea that much of what passes for “placebo effects” is in reality a sum of artifacts of clinical trials, Jean Brissonnet in a French language <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/placebo-are-you-there/">article translated by Harriet Hall</a> pointed out that clinical trials are different. We measure many more things—and measure them more intensively. Treatments are much more standardized. Brissonnet proposes defining the placebo effect thusly, “Observed effect = specific effect + natural course of healing + a residual effect that we will provisionally call the placebo effect.”</p> <p>When you look at placebo effects this way, they become a lot less impressive than proponents like Vance portray them. I’m not sure I’m quite ready to go as <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/cam-the-beer-goggles-of-medicine/">far as Mark Crislip</a> in <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-placebo-myth/">rejecting the idea</a> that placebo effects are even a real thing, but I have been convinced that, if placebo effects are real apart from artifacts in clinical trial construction, measurement biases, and the like, they are quite modest at best and, in the case of alternative medicine, not worth lying to the patient.</p> <p>None of this is to say that placebo effects might not be useful, because it is certainly possible that doctors can enhance the perceived effectiveness of evidence- and science-based treatment by using strategies that enhance placebo effects, in particular the doctor-patient relationship. One of my favorite studies was another Kaptchuk study that actually <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/08/finally-nccam-actually-funds-some-worthw/">told us something interesting about placebos</a>. Basically, Kaptchuk randomized patients with irritable bowel disease into three groups. Subjects in Group 1 were in the wait list control and received no intervention. Subjects in Group 2 received placebo acupuncture treatments from an acupuncturist showing no empathy. Subjects in Group 3 received the same acupuncture treatments as patients in group 2 under the same conditions and in the same room, except that the practitioners interacted with them extensively. The difference was that subjects experienced an “augmented” patient interaction (45 minutes) at the first visit in which detailed questions about their symptoms were asked, including how their IBS symptoms affected their lifestyles and relationships. The interviewers asked if subjects understood the “cause” and “meaning” of their conditions and at each visit incorporated at least five primary behaviors, including a warm, friendly manner; active listening (repeating the patient’s words and asking for clarifications); empathy; 20 seconds of thoughtful silence while feeling the patient’s pulse or contemplating a treatment plan; and communication of confidence and positive expectation. At each visit, the acupuncturist would place the placebo needles and then leave the subject in a quiet room for 20 minutes. When the practitioner came back to remove the needles, he or she also made sure to exchange some words of encouragement.</p> <p>The results? At the end of six weeks, Kaptchuk observed an improvement of 28%, 44%, and 62% in groups 1, 2, and 3, respectively, concluding, “Non-specific effects can produce statistically and clinically significant outcomes and the patient-practitioner relationship is the most robust component.” Basically, what we used to call a good bedside manner matters.</p> <p>Even Vance seems to realize that the trappings of medicine and the practitioner-patient relationship are very important, as he says:</p> <blockquote><p>I also traveled to Catemaco, a town in Vera Cruz famous for its witch doctors. I met with one of the leading witch doctors there to try and understand what we call the theater of medicine—all the trappings that go into the healing practice, like the stethoscope and white lab coat. In different cultural contexts, those things change. What was interesting in Catemaco is that many of the traditional healers have adopted the theater of modern medicine. They wear lab coats, cut their hair short, and use long words, which gives them the "flavor" of what we recognize as conventional medicine.</p></blockquote> <p>And:</p> <blockquote><p>The message for doctors is the importance of being more empathetic and taking more time. You may be throwing away 30 percent of your cure just by having a poor bedside manner. If you do, you can’t be surprised if people go looking for other means of healing. The witch doctors, traditional Chinese medicine practitioners, and homeopaths I spoke to all understand this.</p></blockquote> <p>Of course, the proper response to this is to point out that, yes, bedside manner matters. That’s why training physicians to be more empathetic is a far better course than to embrace witchcraft like homeopathy, acupuncture, and other forms of magic that make up much of the alternative medicine being “integrated” into medicine through integrative medicine.</p> <h2>The seductiveness of the placebo narrative</h2> <p>Paul Ingraham <a href="https://www.painscience.com/articles/placebo-power-hype.php">summed up placebo effects well</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>Placebo gets more love than it deserves. I am interested in the biology and psychology of placebo, but it is not a magical mind-over-matter phenomenon, or even a good consolation prize when treatment is otherwise ineffective. Many medical problems are entirely immune to positive thinking and expectation (try treating tuberculosis with a sugar pill and see how many Nobel Prizes you pick up for that innovation). The power of belief is strictly limited and accounts for only some of what we think of as “the” placebo effect. There are no mentally-mediated healing miracles. But there is an awful lot of ideologically motivated hype about placebo…</p></blockquote> <p>There’s a reason for this hype, though. The placebo narrative is very seductive, as I’ve pointed out many times before, for reasons that are not hard to guess. First and foremost, it taps into a deep, longstanding aspect of humans. Specifically, the placebo narrative offers the patient—and, truth be told, the physician as well—an illusion of control. What is the reward for the physician? That’s simple. These days medicine is a collaboration between doctor and patient, and, although the doctor still holds most of the power, the patient must be involved in the decision-making process. However, part of the appeal of being a physician is <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/09/cam-placebos-and-the-new-paternalism/">actually rooted in paternalism</a> (these days, disguised under the term “<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/13/patient-centered-care-vs-cam-in-the-new/">patient-centered care</a>,” where we are the nearly all-knowing physician who does what is necessary to heal the sick and the patient simply accepts whatever we deem necessary. We don’t have to tell them everything, and they don’t expect to be told everything. There is also a very real appeal to being a “<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/03/09/integrative-medicine-the-lure-of-the-healer-companion/">shaman-healer</a>,” who takes care of the “whole patient” spiritually as well as physically. Being able to perceive oneself as teaching a patient to “heal himself” could thus be very tempting, and there’s a reason why anthropologists are <a href="https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/revisiting-daniel-moerman-and-placebo-effects/">attracted to alternative medicine</a>.</p> <p>As for patients, placebo medicine literally tells them that their mind—and therefore <em>they</em>—can relieve their symptoms and “heal” their bodies just by unleashing some innate power within oneself to heal the body. You don’t have to have chronic pain or a serious illness to understand how appealing such an idea is. Patients love it, for much the same way that people love <a href="https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4096">The Secret</a>. It tells you that you attract what you want to yourself and that, basically, if you only want something bad enough, including healing, the universe will provide.</p> <p>It’s not for nothing that I coined the term “the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/09/14/central-dogma-of-alternative-medicine/">central dogma of alternative medicine</a>” and concluded that that central dogma is: Wishing makes it so. The placebo narrative fits perfectly with that and is of a piece with previous religious healing traditions in which the ill pray for healing and, if that healing comes, God did it. The main difference here is that we’re told that, instead of the universe providing through a god or spirit, the universe provides through your mind—as though the mind and the body were separate things.</p> <p>The reality of course, is much more prosaic and much less “sexy,” as even <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/11/placebo-health-science-brain-suggestible-you-erik-vance/">Vance seems to realize</a>. Late in the interview he notes that he’s “tried a lot of alternative medicines and haven’t stuck with any of them.” Why not? If placebo effects are so powerful, you’d think Vance would have found an alternative medicine modality that he liked enough to stick with.</p> <p>He also cautions:</p> <blockquote><p>The message for the patient is that [alternative medicine] can be effective. But I do lay out some rules for when to do it and when not to.</p> <p>One is, don’t hurt yourself. If you have a life-threatening disease, that’s not the time to play with expectations.</p> <p>Don’t go broke. I’ve talked to many people who’ve spent their life’s fortune chasing after healings that were never going to happen.</p> <p>The last one is, don’t harm the environment. If your placebo involves endangered animals, it might be a good idea to pick a different one.</p> <p>Within those rules and within certain diseases, there’s a lot you can do. Just because it’s a placebo doesn’t mean it won’t work. This has been shown again and again in laboratories.</p></blockquote> <p>Except that it hasn’t “been shown again and again in laboratories” that placebos “work.” It’s still not even clear that placebo effects are anything but artifacts of clinical trials. In brief, the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/03/21/the-myth-of-placebo-effects/">myth of placebo effects</a> is far more impressive than the reality.</p> <p>Placebo research can be valuable, but it has, unfortunately, been largely hijacked by integrative medicine, whose adherents want to demonstrate that alternative medicine works and that placebo medicine is efficacious and therefore worthwhile. (Would that it were true!) What placebo research has shown us is not that alternative medicine works, nor has it shown us that the brain is the body’s “pharmacy” that can be tapped at will to heal all manner of ailments. Rather, what it has done is to reinforce something known since ancient times, the importance of empathy and a trusting practitioner-patient relationship. That’s more than good enough.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Sun, 12/18/2016 - 21:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cam" hreflang="en">cam</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/erik-vance" hreflang="en">Erik Vance</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/integrative-medicine" hreflang="en">integrative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/brain-and-behavior" hreflang="en">Brain and Behavior</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348793" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482146186"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How would the effects of something like Rescue Remedy be explained in terms of its effect on anxiety. I came up against this the other day and found myself a bit tonge tied trying to explain to a friend why it was just a placebo. She said she didn’t care because it “worked” (she was very anxious, used the stuff and very quickly felt much better). I have read this, and all the highlighted bits, and I still don’t see how to answer my friend. What’s wrong with the “power of suggestion”, “power of positive thinking” with something like anxiety? It certainly shouldn’t cost $12 or more per bottle, but that argument doesn’t work very well either. Of course she threw out the naturalistic fallacy as well, at which point I kinda gave up. I need something simple and to the point to someone who barely got through high school and doesn’t read (probably barely can). Why bother? It just bugs me to hear that, “oh, you know that stuff I got? It really works!”. It seems like a gateway drug.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348793&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NTUEuSxcb-gGHj_5Yg8oIcoNkM5WqEvOjUJspahVFcc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darwinslapdog (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348793">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348794" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482148897"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"It certainly shouldn’t cost $12 or more per bottle"</p> <p>Yes it should, and even much more. The amount a person spends on something the more they are personally invested in it working (filling a need or a want). The same is true of cars, clothes, house, phone, personal trainer, or whatever. The more they spend the more they will strive to convince you, and themselves, that it works and was therefore worth the price.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348794&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LCpdyrKB-BkwUpdEx3WqmdybvZ_cz6VL2D2jquAqpmQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rs (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348794">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348795" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482149650"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>How would the effects of something like Rescue Remedy be explained in terms of its effect on anxiety.</p></blockquote> <p>I was given a bottle by a friend. Consuming the entire thing worked for a little while, but it's awfully expensive for a digestif.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348795&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QH1eph1T52z4BO8T24I7qLELvUVX-S-aX9qaK-hX_HU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348795">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348796" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482151015"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>It certainly shouldn’t cost $12 or more per bottle</p></blockquote> <p>Real prescription medications usually do cost $12 or more per bottle--they need to set a higher price to recover manufacturing costs, amortized R&amp;D costs, distribution costs, and reasonable retail markup. Some drug manufacturers get greedy and charge far more than justified by their costs, but even the ones that don't generally end up charging more. Of course the insured patient rarely sees that full cost because their cost is limited to the co-payment while the insurance company covers the difference.</p> <p>OTC medications are a different story. Volume and competition help to drive prices down. But I recall from the time I almost bought a homeopathic remedy by mistake (N=1) that the homeopathic remedy was triple the price of the real stuff, and that was for the store brand homeopathic remedy (there was also a name brand version of the homeopathic remedy for about twice the price of the store brand).</p> <p>I don't think rs@2 is entirely wrong about people equating higher price with superior product. That certainly does happen, whether justified (e.g., in real estate you are almost always getting something for the additional money you pay, whether it's a bigger lot, more square footage, or a more desirable location) or not (e.g., I can't reliably distinguish a $20/bottle wine from a $2k/bottle wine, but many wine snobs will always take the latter if they can afford it). I don't think that's necessarily the case with placebo medicine. There are lots of folk remedies that qualify as placebo medicine that don't cost a bundle of money, e.g., chicken soup for relief of cold symptoms. Some people get desperate enough to pay lots of money for treatments, and certainly there are charlatans who take advantage of this, but it's not the whole story.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348796&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gjCOnth3ga50mDTlFkkTEZk8zn7GkRsUkK9o6NpJVJY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348796">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348797" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482157752"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The price should have an impact on the placebo effect. If an injection has more effect than two pills and two pills has more effect than one pill then it makes a kinda sense that an expensive remedy has more effect than a cheap one. Can you tell I've just been rereading Ben Goldacre's Bad Science?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348797&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3TsFFFbTpUbjarzy-9ms1rVHiyP4rtNaKGYpg7UYD9A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348797">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348798" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482159449"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Everything we pay for in life is worth only what we're willing to spend on it. Fake products can cost what they do because the people who are willing to buy them are willing to pay it. If they think they are getting value for their money, then the value is there to them . . . until their kid dies from an untreated infection, or they have a stroke because the "natural" remedy for their high blood pressure didn't do them a damn bit of good.</p> <p>There's a reason why snake oil salesmen did so well 100+ years ago. Partly because anyone really sick would be dead by the time they came through town again, and partly because their products contained something else that created the illusion of feeling better that worked long enough that a change for the worse wasn't attributed to the snake oil, but the fact they'd run out of it and the salesman had moved on to the next town of marks.</p> <p>Funny how the snake oil of the day contained a lot of alcohol and/or laudanum or cocaine. </p> <p>Which makes me want to know what was really in the placebo that darwinslapdog's friend takes, Rescue Remedy. It didn't take long to find that brandy is one of the ingredients.</p> <p>Go figure. Placebo effect my ass. She's getting a buzz. Probably not enough to get her pulled over or get her a DUI, unless she gets a drink after work with her friends.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348798&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_40wxHlAadZTjFHwXynD1mhnLPIOROAoP9Bt0GVgMs0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348798">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348799" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482170122"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Many years ago I started taking the much-maligned fluoxetine. I started feeling better in a couple of days. I knew perfectly well that it was extremely unlikely that it was actually doing anything yet, and suspect that I felt better in large part because I'd finally come to the point of giving myself permission to feel better.</p> <p>I really doubt that darwinslapdog's friend was getting a buzz - the standard product contains "27% Grape Based Brandy as a preservative" and a standard bottle of drops is only 20 mL, so 5.4 mL of ethanol in a whole bottle. For comparison, a UK "unit" of alcohol is 10 mL or 8 g, equivalent to 25 ml of typical 40%-alcohol hard liquor. A typical "shot" in Canada or the US is about 43 mL, containing about 17 mL of alcohol.</p> <p>Oh, Jebus, Doctors Phil &amp; Oz recommend Rescue Remedy, according the mfr's web site.</p> <p>Isn't rescue remedy supposed to be delivered in a small cask attached to the collar of a St. Bernard?</p> <p> ***<br /><a href="http://www.bonkersinstitute.org/medshow/lillyplacebo.html"> Here's a link </a>to an old photo of placebo bottles. I ran across it early this morning while trying to find out about the rise and fall of "hypodermic tablets", which came up in a conversation last evening.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348799&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UeKzl9hvo0Y6WvNh1YlFskCE4fI3gctaw9ApEh3PB_g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348799">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348800" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482170376"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Many years ago I started taking the much-maligned fluoxetine. I started feeling better in a couple of days. I knew perfectly well that it was extremely unlikely that it was actually doing anything yet, and suspect that I felt better in large part because I’d finally come to the point of giving myself permission to feel better.</p></blockquote> <p>I had a similar experience when I first started on Celexa during my first year of grad school, when I finally had healthcare; I figure the mere act of finally seeking help probably provided some relief. Or it could have kicked off some hypomania that helped me get through my second semester of grad school without throwing me totally off kilter, who knows. I was on a variety of antidepressants for years, on again off again. Wellbutrin definitely made me unbalanced and I went off it after a few weeks.</p> <blockquote><p>Isn’t rescue remedy supposed to be delivered in a small cask attached to the collar of a St. Bernard?</p></blockquote> <p>I once bought a bottle of homeopathic cough syrup by accident. It helped, but I suspect it was the contents of the syrup itself, not the magical mystical whatever-it-is that's not even in there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348800&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cXhWfwTNnldP2PKWFYawkI67faOh1_db9E9bNukYOP8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348800">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348801" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482177111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eric Lund: Chicken soup for a cold is not a placebo. The hot liquid helps to clear the nasal passages. In addition, some research suggests that something in chicken soup may have properties beyond just being a hot liquid: <a href="http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/the-science-of-chicken-soup/?_r=0">http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/the-science-of-chicken-soup/?_…</a><br /> doug: As to amounts of alcohol imbibed from a patent medicine, some people are acutely sensitive to alcohol. My wife gets loopy on a sip of wine or about one ounce of beer. This is most certainly not any kind of anticipation effect. Besides, many people taking these "harmless" remedies figure that more is better and take lots more than the recommended dose.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348801&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CEQCj4wWcVmxdQvM83fRZzohmNOeqm7e38E7zLNYb9E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348801">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348802" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482180269"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>doug: from the manufacturer's FAQ: <a href="http://feelbach.com/faq.asp?qid=5344790&amp;act=bq">http://feelbach.com/faq.asp?qid=5344790&amp;act=bq</a></p> <p>They have several products with varying levels of alcohol "as a preservative."</p> <p>1) "We preserve the essence in Brandy and spring water, wherein the alcohol level per volume is 25%." That's 50 proof.</p> <p>2) "In addition, we sell ready-mixed essences (Bach flower formulas). These essences are intended for common situations such as insomnia, tension, and smoking cessation. These essences are sold in 20 ml bottles. We preserve these essences with Brandy at an alcohol level of 40% per volume, and they retain their potency for 10 years." That's 80 proof. No doubt it lasts ten years. I want to know if it ages well, like a good whiskey.</p> <p>3) "Lastly, we sell each of the 38 basic Bach essences in 20 ml bottles. These too are preserved in Brandy at an alcohol level of 40% per volume, and are also potent for 10 years." That's also 80 proof.</p> <p>Now granted, they instruct you to further dilute in water. Still, I'd be interested to know what it does to the BAC. And we all know that patient who thinks if a little is good, more is better, as Dave also pointed out. </p> <p>I scare the socks off people with tales of people routinely taking 5 or more tablets of Vicodin at a time because they're so addicted to hydrocodone, and wondering why their livers are failing. </p> <p>I also wonder if they have to have a liquor license to ship interstate. Hope they're not selling to minors.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348802&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CAnjQdLgAhO3ljhShjPlbYBqhRTYPt7VgCPkoLrJjyI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348802">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348803" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482182367"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hope they’re not selling to minors.</p></blockquote> <p>I take it that you missed <a href="https://consumerist.com/2015/10/28/teen-shoppers-can-get-drunk-without-id-on-cvs-homeopathic-laxative/">this story</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348803&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FxTOjcM8E17biatYVRZupQXNdrLEKP36JtF1sc64tjc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348803">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348804" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482183222"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You can even <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJokxl4RY4s">get your dog drunk</a> on homeopathic remedies!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348804&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2G_cXQjD6AK3DATHCcxkQKEY9jdhydVAhbcKXhJ6cNs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348804">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348805" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482184124"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad: I did miss that story.</p> <p>What does it say that my first reaction was, "Holy shit!" :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348805&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="arAHFwO1IP9fXW2T3HLmOFBz16wvJ-138QEcvBx0xH4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348805">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348806" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482196575"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@NumberWang #5<br /> I also enjoyed Bad Science and some of Ben Goldacre's other work, but I have noticed a bit of pushback against some of his comments on placebos.</p> <p>For example, I recently listened to a podcast from Merseyside Skeptics Society where they went through some of the studies he was quoting and argued that they didn't necessarily show what Ben was claiming they did: that the 'placebo' response due to the variations in specific placebo treatment (number of pills etc.) could not fully be untangled from other non-specific effects.</p> <p>IIRC, one of the issues mentioned was that the comparisons of different placebos against each other were partly based on comparing placebo arms of two different studies with each other, so that as well as comparing two different placebo treatments, it was effectively a comparison of two different groups of patients and two different groups of 'testers'. Hence maybe the difference in response was partly down to different biases in the testers or different makeup of the treatment groups etc.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348806&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="74iMzVPta7b-2UN8qFL3o-U3TcVKPdwydiJJ5FRkdHs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">EvilTwinSelf (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348806">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348807" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482202535"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well I can't claim to know if BG looked at those studies in depth but I'm fairly sure he would be delighted to know that they were being questioned.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348807&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kof_4H80bDyJCLgnzt0J4P43CU0-0Bu6lklZdC6n5Rg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348807">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348808" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482205779"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Check out the podcast themselves, it's number 187 and 188 of skeptics with a K:<br /><a href="http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/podcasts/">http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/podcasts/</a></p> <p>One of the studies was painkillers in brand packaging versus generic.<br /> The 4 arms was placebe in generic packaging, placebo in brand packaging, and painkillers in generic and brand packaging.</p> <p>In the placebo arms the brand packaging had better effect, and in the drug arms the brand had better effects, however, the placebo branded effect was less than the drug generic effect, and the scale was curios, a 1 to 6 with 1 worse, 2 the same, 3 slightly better 4 a Little better, 5 better and 6 much better, with the placebos fooling around between 2 and 3.</p> <p>The point was that the study did not look at placebo versus drug interactions, as BG claimed, it did not test or show that placebo was on par with drugs.</p> <p>They argued that BG must have misremembered the study, especially since he attributed a different drug to the test, than the one that was used.</p> <p>I think the conclusion was that the placebo narrative is a powerful one, and that BG had fallen for it, at least partly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348808&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cm403p6brKGoCeNqzVVUEL_HBAP8-IV0vDINEvOgeeA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Soren (not verified)</span> on 19 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348808">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348809" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482217840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The part of the book I'm remembering mentioned nothing about testing against drugs. Just one placebo compared to another. Specifically that the more serious the intervention is considered, the greater the effect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348809&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gO5PWTe_eH-NDPVFhDZNwVNIdXSTWnGaVVgb-Lxu-KI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348809">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348810" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482246305"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I do wonder about ginger for motion sickness and the placebo affect. Here's how the train of thought usually goes:</p> <p>This is probably just a placebo.<br /> Then it won't work because I know it's a placebo.<br /> But maybe you've built a conditioned response to feel better.<br /> And there is a little bit of research that says it might work.<br /> Look, it will either help, do nothing, or maybe make you hurl and you'll feel better. Eat it!<br /> *eats ginger candy*<br /> It BURNS!<br /> Oh, well, maybe it works by overwhelming your brain with pain so you can't feel anything else?<br /> *suffers*</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348810&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gWzkzOl13P0cg9VQHxvAm2GKC3EBcDC0VqMTd6ZQMX4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348810">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348811" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482248432"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In Nepal they have a 'sweet' that I was given for anti nausea. Some kind of concentrated salty....lemony....something. Tasted foul but it really did the job. I thought it was medicine until they gave me an entire jar to bring back to the UK. No idea what category that would fit in to. Herbal? Placebo? Maybe the strong taste just distracted me from the feeling I wanted to puke.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348811&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-qTlGyA40bZbkqs1cjQX8-qTfUBfsqeaLkP-Mc0xPgw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348811">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348812" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482249088"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NumberWang@20: My mom told me that the old-time remedy for nausea was straight Coke syrup. And the one time I tried an OTC anti-nausea syrup it was the same thing: unspeakably sweet (and totally ineffective, as the taste/texture made me gag and then, well).</p> <p>I've wondered how that's supposed to work, being so sweet. Some hydroscopic property? (i'm pretty sure that's how couch syrups work, just by mechanically coating to sooth.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348812&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HCBocYM0YRQZRbro7PDkpay0CVOKDfhiXo_CNbWC5MU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348812">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348813" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482272534"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Blast &amp; darnnation! I went to the yeast pee dispensary this evening and forgot to have a look for green Chartreuse. If a few flowers in some 25-40% ethanol can "rescue" and calm the anxious, Chartreuse ought to resurrect the dead and make methamphetamine with a dash of strychnine seem like a sedative by comparison. I don't think I've had any (Chartreuse, that is) this millennium. I hate to think what the price is these days.</p> <p>On straight Coke syrup - I presume the syrup doesn't contain the phosphoric acid. If it did it would make a bit of a twist on the first part of<br /> Through the teeth,<br /> Over the gums,<br /> Look out stomach,<br /> Here it comes.</p> <p>Was Coke syrup actually sold at retail in the past?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348813&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I0_ueGJQ7odqqov9XCILUPmm7juh0xSlZqBsVTKDy40"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348813">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348814" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482273520"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"... mechanically coating to sooth"</p> <p>Forsooth! They gave Grandpa Joad "soothing syrup". I thought it was probably just heavy on the EtOH, but <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Winslow's_Soothing_Syrup"> Wikipedia </a>says morphine!</p> <blockquote><p>They fed him short ribs and coffee and soothing syrup;<br /> And Grandpa Joad did die.<br /> They buried Grandpa Joad by the side of the road,<br /> Grandma on the California side,<br /> They buried Grandma on the California side. </p></blockquote> <p> Ballad of Tom Joad by Woodie Guthrie</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348814&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SO3INFyGwE5LijCF9RV3PL2SlSwKOP3-XqNveeIJlCU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">doug (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348814">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348815" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482273826"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Justatech: Oh dear. I just bought my sister in law a few ounces of ginger tea for Christmas, as she's having a terrible time with nausea and doesn't have many herbal teas. (She's trying to cut down on caffeine due to pregnancy). Maybe I should have saved my money.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348815&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A0C2bBO0C2ZFEfd_aEMi4AbCIQeMCSwJ6nWr5BFWbDU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Politicalguineapig (not verified)</span> on 20 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348815">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348816" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482309988"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am disappointed.</p> <p>Much ado about cost (everyone knows all that and I was talking more about the profit to the quacks, not people’s attitudes) and little about the rest. My friend is a functioning alcoholic who consumes large quantities every day, so I don’t think it was the bit in the few drops she consumed. Her testimony was dramatic and she was very distressed that I tried to debunk her “miracle”. I am always conflicted about pipiing up when people testify to woo, especially as it usually does no good anyway, but my sceptical side just can’t be kept in check.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348816&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3S9Zq462ydqDAkNTrFsUg-LvLJq3L-xWHaNVpxLx4qI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darwinslapdog (not verified)</span> on 21 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348816">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348817" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482328819"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Coca Cola and Coke syrup are well-known folk remedies for nausea and to my anecdotal experience work pretty well. The syrup does contain phosphoric acid, and it's worth noting that Emetrol, an OTC anti-emetic, has phosphoric acid and sugar as it's active ingredients. Coke is cheaper.<br /> As for ginger, it's a common home remedy for a number of things in the Far East. My wife, a nurse from the Philippines, slices ginger root in the soft rice she cooks up when someone at home has diarrhea or nausea. It does help, although that may be due to the rice itself, or the salt in it, or the soothing feeling of having something hot and digestible in the stomach.<br /> She also swears by ginger root for coughing. She will give it in tea or or just a sliver of the raw root, and it seems to help. I know this is all anecdotal, but when she gives me something with ginger it's been harmless at worst.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348817&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="B3yL_OGzYCeSU56xeGf3NHDTHhjS3iH1QWOgR51TwLs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 21 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348817">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348818" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482332012"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>PGP @24: No, no, you're good! I'm pretty sure (if I'm remembering the things I found on PubMed correctly) that ginger has been found to be more effective than placebo for morning sickness. And at least it's a clear fluid so it's no *hurting*.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348818&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PkiYKONuCL_VqoACS_yEyJ6vxgYmRcVOfBHppTXsj8w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 21 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348818">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348819" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1482345820"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP, doug, and anyone else who's ever been prescribed an anti-depressant...</p> <blockquote><p>I started taking the much-maligned fluoxetine. I started feeling better in a couple of days. I knew perfectly well that it was extremely unlikely that it was actually doing anything yet, and suspect that I felt better in large part because I’d finally come to the point of giving myself permission to feel better.</p></blockquote> <p>Granted that you're just talking about feeling better after a couple days, which would be 'placebo' not effect of the drug itself, there are a lot of folks who think all common anti-depressants have no effect beyond placebo and point to some research that supposedly supports that conclusion.</p> <p>I don't buy that at all. In my travels through depression-land, I was prescribed Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, Serzone, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Celexa, and Lexapro at different times, most during a fairly short period when I wasn't responding well to medication. I had heard of Prozac, of course, and had been on desipramine during an earlier really bad spell, so I had a general expectation that anti-depressant would do something – not make me feel 'good' in any way, but keep the depressive downward spirals from sinking past a certain point, acting something like a peak limiter in electronics or a drive-train governor in a truck. Though my expectations and my mental state were essentially constant, the anti-depressant effect, or lack thereof, was all over the place from one pill to another that were all supposed to be similar in action, and some (most notably Celexa vs. Lexapro) that had very similar chemical composition. </p> <p>For one thing, I wouldn't call SSRIs 'placebos', since they all had fairly unpleasant 'side effects'. They were all definitely doing <i>something</i>, of course, how that affected my mental state I can't say. In listening to other depressives, I'd say the anecdotal reports are pretty much univocal in describing prescription of anti-depressants as a blindfolded psydoc tossing darts in the general direction of a wall until one of them sticks in the target. That is, they couldn't find any rhyme or reason to what 'worked' or what didn't any more than I could. Nor was there any pattern across this unscientifc sample. The 'hits' and 'misses' all seemed idiosyncratic and individualized. </p> <p>This experience is one reason I wish there was more good research into 'placebo effects', including those that accompany meds that do have some physiological mechanism of action. For example, how might my little survey square with the resaerch casting doubt that SSRIs do anything at all. I suspect there may be the usual methodological flaws in studies that try to quantify some form of self-reports. But beyond that, I wonder if any study across a representative sample population could account for the sort of dartboard/it-all-depends-on-the-individual hypotheses, or whether somehow these specific differential effects disappear when you examine the aggregate...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348819&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QQt3Bdkw6pLCcp1Q9w9IQJA78skZnQfmj3tmnueHMa4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 21 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348819">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1348820" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1483587751"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In the UK, 'Integrated' healthcare generally means the integration of primary, secondary, tertiary and social care - not the integration of cow pie and apple pie (nonsense/scientific sense) as in the US.</p> <p>The term 'Integrative medicine' is only slowly being applied in the UK - and is not understood by most doctors, medical institutions and patients, even though our Prince of Wales did found his 'Foundation for Integrated Health' some years ago (meaning cow/apple pie integration). It went bust!</p> <p>For that reason I am happy with the 'placebo narrative' which I find helpful to explain to anyone who will listen how it is that so many patients report 'benefit' from CAM (which I term 'camistry').<br /> It is not good enough to say a CAM 'doesn't work' without differentiating the type I effects of a constructive therapeutic relationship with an empathic practitioner from the type II effects of the specific modality (the pill, prick, pummel, potion, what have you.) Camistry provides no type II effects - or it would be 'medicine'.</p> <p>But I cannot differentiate the response expectancies achieved by placebos from those achieved by hypnosis. And since all hypnosis is auto-hypnosis (even if facilitated), are not placebo effects a manifestation of hypnotic effects (and thereby, purely imaginary)?</p> <p>I try to explore this theme more in 'Real Secrets of Alternative Medicine (Amazon).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1348820&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RCOTG3hlgRmtKYizrC8X7AuL5nGOKjkWcMwHh82B9hk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Richard Rawlins (not verified)</span> on 04 Jan 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1348820">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/12/19/the-placebo-narrative-justifying-integrative-medicine-through-exaggeration%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 19 Dec 2016 02:00:24 +0000 oracknows 22453 at https://scienceblogs.com The revenge of the son of the myth of "placebos without deception" https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/10/18/rehashing-the-myth-of-placebo-without-deception <span>The revenge of the son of the myth of &quot;placebos without deception&quot;</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Back when advocates of “alternative” medicine were busily trying to legitimize their quackery by first renaming it “complementary and alternative medicine” (CAM), long before CAM “evolved” into “integrative medicine,” they really believed that if their favorite woo were to be studied scientifically it would be shown to be efficacious. Thus was born the Office of Alternative Medicine in the NIH, which later became the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), which more recently became the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH), thus utterly purging itself of the word “alternative.” Both reflecting and influenced by NCCIH, over the last 25 years, increasingly academic medical centers have been feverishly studying quackery, often funded by NCCIH, and “integrating” it into real medicine. Thus was born the phenomenon of quackademic medicine, the infiltration of quackery into medical schools and academic medical centers.</p> <p>There’s just one problem. As the actual double blind placebo-controlled randomized clinical trials (RCTs) of acupuncture, reiki, homeopathy, and various forms of the quackery advocates associated with NCCIH and investigators in bastions of quackademic medicine were done, it rapidly became very clear that these treatments produced effects indistinguishable from placebo controls; in other words, they didn’t work. Normally in medicine, when that happens the treatments that fail randomized clinical trials are abandoned. True, the process of abandoning such treatments is messier and longer than we might like to admit, but eventually they are abandoned.</p> <!--more--><p>When it comes to integrating quackery into medicine, however, because it was never science that motivated quackademics to begin with, when RCTs come up negative for acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, or whatever, they cannot accept that their woo doesn’t work and simply walk away. So instead, for example, they make excuses. They do “pragmatic studies” without placebos, even though such studies are only appropriate after a treatment has been validated as efficacious in RCTs. Alternatively, they basically concede that their treatment doesn’t do anything better than placebo but then start arguing that they “work” by “<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/08/20/deepak-chopra-placebo-effects-and-the-secret/">harnessing the power of placebo</a>” effects to “induce natural healing,” misrepresenting placebo effects as the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/17/does-thinking-make-it-so/">power to use one’s mind to heal oneself</a>. Never mind that this argument never flies with conventional science-based medicine and represents a flagrant double standard in which CAM is held to a much lower standard of evidence. Again, this is about belief, not evidence. Never mind that lying to patients to invoke placebo effects is the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/09/cam-placebos-and-the-new-paternalism/">resurrection of medical paternalism</a>.</p> <p>The need for deception is, of course, a major problem with arguing that physicians should be able to use placebos, to tell them that a sugar pill is something effective. Ethically, this has always been a dubious thing for a doctor to do, but in the era of shared decision-making between doctors and their patients that has emerged from the paternalistic “doctor knows best” era of 50 or 60 years ago it’s even more problematic than before. To combat this narrative, there has emerged the narrative of “placebo without deception.” The foremost advocate of this narrative is our old buddy Ted Kaptchuk, who first promoted it in a big way six years ago with an <a href="http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015591">open label study of placebo pills</a> plus standard of care versus standard of care alone on irritable bowel syndrome. I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">discussed this study when it came out</a>.</p> <p>Unfortunately, Kaptchuk is back in the news <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161014214919.htm">saying virtually identical things</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Conventional medical wisdom has long held that placebo effects depend on patients' belief they are getting pharmacologically active medication. A paper published in the journal Pain is the first to demonstrate that patients who knowingly took a placebo in conjunction with traditional treatment for lower back pain saw more improvement than those given traditional treatment alone.</p> <p>"These findings turn our understanding of the placebo effect on its head," said joint senior author Ted Kaptchuk, director of the Program for Placebo Studies and the Therapeutic Encounter at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. "This new research demonstrates that the placebo effect is not necessarily elicited by patients' conscious expectation that they are getting an active medicine, as long thought. Taking a pill in the context of a patient-clinician relationship -- even if you know it's a placebo -- is a ritual that changes symptoms and probably activates regions of the brain that modulate symptoms." </p></blockquote> <p>I was half tempted to direct you to my <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">discussion of Kaptchuk’s first “placebo without deception” study</a> and leave it at that because this study suffers from virtually the same flaw as the last one, but that’s not what you come to this blog here. You come here because you like your Insolence Insolent and <strike>verbose</strike> detailed.</p> <p>One thing I’ve learned when evaluating these studies is that you really, really have to look long and hard at the methodology, because when you do you will almost always find that there is deception involved. For example, like this new trial, Kaptchuk designed his IBS trial so that the patients knew they were getting placebos, even going so far as to label the pill bottles “Placebo.” Back then, then he and his team observed a difference in reported symptoms between those taking the placebo pills plus usual care compared to those with usual care and proclaimed that they had successfully invoked placebo effects without deception. There was just one problem, and it was in the script doctors used when discussing placebo effects with patients:</p> <blockquote><p> Patients who gave informed consent and fulfilled the inclusion and exclusion criteria were randomized into two groups: 1) placebo pill twice daily or 2) no-treatment. Before randomization and during the screening, the placebo pills were truthfully described as inert or inactive pills, like sugar pills, without any medication in it. Additionally, patients were told that “placebo pills, something like sugar pills, have been shown in rigorous clinical testing to produce significant mind-body self-healing processes.” </p></blockquote> <p>And the study was advertised thusly:</p> <blockquote><p> Participants were recruited from advertisements for “a novel mind-body management study of IBS” in newspapers and fliers and from referrals from healthcare professionals. During the telephone screening, potential enrollees were told that participants would receive “either placebo (inert) pills, which were like sugar pills which had been shown to have self-healing properties” or no-treatment. </p></blockquote> <p>So basically, right off the bat the investigators recruited patients who were interested in “mind-body” effects and then told them that placebo effects could produce powerful “mind-body self-healing processes” in rigorous clinical testing. There was the deception, because even the most generous and sympathetic characterization of the rigorous research existing on placebo effects would not justify such a description. As I said at the time, not only did Kaptchuk et al deceive their subjects to trigger placebo effects, whether they realized or would admit that that’s what they did or not, but they might very well have specifically attracted patients more prone to believing that the power of “mind-body” interactions. Yes, patients were informed that they were receiving a placebo, but that knowledge was tainted by what the investigators told them about what the placebo pills could do.</p> <p>So what about this study? This time around Kaptchuk is not the first author; Cláudia Carvalho is. He’s also not the senior listed author. Irving Kirsch is. Be that as it may, this study has Kaptchuk’s fingerprints all over it. Entitled <a href="http://journals.lww.com/pain/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=9000&amp;issue=00000&amp;article=99404&amp;type=abstract#">Open-label placebo treatment in chronic low back pain: a randomized controlled trial</a>, it is basically that. The verbiage is very similar:</p> <blockquote><p> Administrating fake pills to harness placebo effects poses an ethical conundrum for physicians in clinical practice due to the widespread belief that deception is necessary for placebo pills to work (eg, pretending sugar pills are drugs or, more commonly, giving genuine medications that have no known effect on the condition).<sup>29</sup> However, 4 studies have directly tested the effect of an open-label placebo (OLP) prescription, and all indicated that patients reported benefits after taking pills presented honestly as placebos. Three were small pilot studies.<sup>19,25,28</sup> The fourth was a controlled trial in irritable bowel syndromeand showed significant, clinically meaningful benefits over no-treatment controls.<sup>17</sup></p> <p>The received wisdom is that clinical administration of a placebo requires deception (or double-blind conditions) to be effective. How is it that a placebo treatment is able to produce effects even when the participants know that the pill is inert? </p></blockquote> <p>This is the spin. Even though that controlled trial did indeed invoke deception to promote placebo effects by greatly exaggerating what placebo effects were, Carvahlo et al blithely ignore that and simply declare the study to be strong evidence that one can invoke placebo effects without deception. They even move on to assume that the point has been demonstrated and ask how such a thing could be true? Then they go on to do the same thing that Kaptchuk did six years ago.</p> <p>From the methods section:</p> <blockquote><p> Participants were recruited from advertisements for “a novel mind–body clinical study of chronic low back pain” in flyers, posters, Facebook posts, magazine advertising, and referrals from health care professionals. </p></blockquote> <p>And:</p> <blockquote><p> After informed consent, all participants were asked if they had heard of the “placebo effect” and explained in an approximately 15-minute a priori script, adopted from an earlier OLP study,<sup>18</sup> the following “4 discussion points”: (1) the placebo effect can be powerful, (2) the body automatically can respond to taking placebo pills like Pavlov dogs who salivated when they heard a bell, (3) a positive attitude can be helpful but is not necessary, and (4) taking the pills faithfully for the 21 days is critical. All participants were also shown a video clip (1 minute 25 seconds) of a television news report, in which participants in an OLP trial of irritable bowel syndrome were interviewed (excerpted from: <a href="http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382">http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/40787382#40787382</a>). </p></blockquote> <p>So basically, they used the same talking points from the previous study, plus clips of happy study participants to prime the patients that placebo effects can be “powerful.” Again, people that patients tend to believe, doctors and nurses and other health care professionals, telling them that sugar pills coule invoke powerful healing effects. In other words, this study is just like the IBS study, only with back pain.</p> <p>Its design was fairly simple. There were two groups: open label placebo (OLP) + treatment as usual (TAU) versus TAU. Participants were eligible if they were over 18 years old and had persistent back pain for more than three months’ duration. Exclusion criteria included usage of opioid pain medications within the prior 6 months or if they had a history of refusing to take oral medication. Other exclusion criteria included pain due to cancer, fratures, infections, prior back surgery, disk degeneration due to trauma or aging, conditions that make treatment difficult (e.g., paralysis or psychosis), and other conditions thought to interfere with interpretation, such as fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. Then there were the pretty standard exclusions: pregnancy, breastfeeding, surgery within the last 30 days, and the like. So basically what investigators were left with were patients with chronic low back pain, almost certainly musculoskeletal in nature, and no major anatomic abnormalities from trauma, prior surgery, or cancer who had not taken opioids in the last six months. In other words, this is mild chronic back pain, a condition that’s very likely to be prone to placebo effects, which is likely why this group was chosen. Overall, 97 subjects were randomized, and ultimately there were 42 subjects in the TAU group, 41 in the TAU + OLP group. There were three dropouts in the TAU group and 4 in the TAU + OLP group, leaving 38 in each group, but an intent-to-treat analysis was used, so that all 83 of the original participants were analyzed. Outcomes were measured at baseline and after 11 and 21 days using questionnaires measuring total pain score and the Roland–Morris Disability Questionnaire.</p> <p>One thing that bothered me looking at Table I. (The paper is open access; so you can look for yourself if you’re curious.) There are no statistics. By the “eyeball” test, the two groups look pretty comparable in all the baseline characteristics measured, but I like to see statistics. I’m funny that way. Be that as it may, the results of this study were utterly predictable, given its design:</p> <blockquote><p> Compared to TAU, OLP elicited greater pain reduction on each of the three 0- to 10-point Numeric Rating Scales and on the 0- to 10-point composite pain scale (P , 0.001), with moderate to large effect sizes. Pain reduction on the composite Numeric Rating Scales was 1.5 (95% confidence interval: 1.0-2.0) in the OLP group and 0.2 (20.3 to 0.8) in the TAU group. Openlabel placebo treatment also reduced disability compared to TAU (P , 0.001), with a large effect size. Improvement in disability scores was 2.9 (1.7-4.0) in the OLP group and 0.0 (21.1 to 1.2) in the TAU group. After being switched to OLP, the TAU group showed significant reductions in both pain (1.5, 0.8-2.3) and disability (3.4, 2.2-4.5). </p></blockquote> <p>And:</p> <blockquote><p> A reduction in pain of 27.9% has been found to correspond to clinical ratings of “much improved” and a 30% reduction has been recommended as an indication clinical significance.7,9 There was a clinically significant 30% reduction in both usual and maximum pain in the placebo group compared to reductions of 9% and 16% in usual and maximum pain, respectively, in the continued usual treatment group. Open-label placebo reduced minimum pain by 16% compared to an increase in pain of 25% with TAU. There was also a 29% reduction in pain-related disability in placebo group compared to 0.02% in the TAU arm. </p></blockquote> <p>So, basically, both groups improved, but the OLP group improved more, just as one would expect from placebo effects. Yet, none of this stopped Carvalho et al from concluding:</p> <blockquote><p> Our data suggest that harnessing placebo effects without deception is possible in the context of a plausible rationale. More research on this possibility is warranted in cLBP and other conditions defined by self-appraisal. </p></blockquote> <p>As is frequently the case when investigators are interviewed by the press, no doubt excited about their results, they went beyond these claims in a <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161014214919.htm">non-peer-reviewed source</a>. You saw Kaptchuk regurgitate pretty much the same nonsense he did six years ago with the IBS study. To that, he added more, and Carvalho chimed in:</p> <blockquote><p> "It's the benefit of being immersed in treatment: interacting with a physician or nurse, taking pills, all the rituals and symbols of our healthcare system," Kaptchuk said. "The body responds to that."</p> <p>"Our findings demonstrate the placebo effect can be elicited without deception," said lead author, Claudia Carvalho, PhD, of ISPA. "Patients were interested in what would happen and enjoyed this novel approach to their pain. They felt empowered." Kaptchuk speculates that other conditions with symptoms and complaints that are based on self-observation (like other kinds of pain, fatigue, depression, common digestive or urinary symptoms) may also be modulated by open-label treatment.</p> <p>"You're never going to shrink a tumor or unclog an artery with placebo intervention," he said. "It's not a cure-all, but it makes people feel better, for sure. Our lab is saying you can't throw the placebo into the trash can. It has clinical meaning, it's statically significant, and it relieves patients. It's essential to what medicine means."</p> <p>"Taking placebo pills to relieve symptoms without a warm and empathic relationship with a health-care provider relationship probably would not work," noted Carvalho. </p></blockquote> <p>One more time: No, Mr. Kaptchuk and Dr. Carvalho. Your results do not show that the placebo effect can be elicited without deception. They do not. You can keep saying that, keep spinning your results that way, but the exact same problem applies to this study as to the IBS study in 2010. You had to hype up what placebo effects were and tell participants, without justification, that they produced “powerful” mind-body effects, priming them with advertisements touting the same thing. The “placebo without deception” narrative was not supported by evidence in 2010, and this new study doesn’t support the narrative either.</p> <p>Finally, we already know that interacting with a kind physician or nurse makes people think they feel better. That’s something that can be done honestly, without deception. Using placebos can’t.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Tue, 10/18/2016 - 00:30</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/claudia-carvalho" hreflang="en">Cláudia Carvalho</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/deception" hreflang="en">deception</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/randomized-clinical-trial" hreflang="en">randomized clinical trial</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ted-kaptchuk" hreflang="en">Ted Kaptchuk</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476767242"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I see another deception, which CAM advocates rarely talk about.<br /> People lied to the doctors because they felt they "should have" had better results and wanted to make all those nice people happy.<br /> Frequently they even lie to the themselves. People who are frustrated and in pain will do that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5R7gYGWoIN0fpFWBtIiCL0E27J7-Hx4c3116F0WmKtk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Christine Rose (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476772412"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Christine writes: "I see another deception, which CAM advocates rarely talk about.<br /> People lied to the doctors because they felt they “should have” had better results and wanted to make all those nice people happy."</p> <p>Isn't that what's known as confirmation bias?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t1Ydf8FXogWAJ9uRsBETGjr_b1ZfOw8IOhDL0vOlp5U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">tgobbi (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476772657"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Now, I may be wrong about this, but I see a lot of confidence intervals that include 1 (e.g., the Numeric Rating Scale comparison). Doesn't that suggest that there was no difference between groups? Also, what's with listing the CI low-high for the OLP group and high-low for the TAU group?</p> <p>Finally, as with last time, you're right that they actually showed that you can elicit placebo effects <i>with</i> deception, which we all already know. Why do they find it so difficult to <i>not</i> use deception in these studies?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PkWJPNRR6eLvLiCFucY3FVwJZO3MnOh5zPBpChBu_xo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476773045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, and while we're on the subject of Kaptchuk and his team's penchant for deceiving study patients, let's not forget the Wechsler et al. study of <a href="http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2011/08/deception-in-research.html">acupuncture vs. albuterol for asthma study</a>, where subjects were told they might get one of the following treatments: albuterol, a placebo inhaler, "real" acupuncture, sham acupuncture. The only problem is that "real" acupuncture was never going to be given to any study subjects, and there was no indication that any of the subjects were ever told of this deception.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sduOUcPTwn-wkWhGn9XatXODtiX8FmqXNaHJGZXIrFg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476785499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@tgobbi</p> <p>"Isn’t that what’s known as confirmation bias?"</p> <p>I'd say no, it isn't. Confirmation bias is the tendency to attribute the real improvements to the treatment and the real deteriorations to bad luck or missing a pill. This is a tendency to willfully overestimate the results, whether consciously or not.</p> <p>That may not be someone's definitions, but I don't think they are the same thing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eSu2KwbBbOi0QcFI6XapacIVr7lotoGEBx8PlyfRn4w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Christine Rose (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476786400"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Christine, tgobbi</p> <p>“Isn’t that what’s known as confirmation bias?”</p> <p>I think that what Christine described is more akin to "being agreeable" (voluntary mis-spelling)<br /> i.e. saying "yes" to the nice person in front of you because anything else would be unpolite/antagonistic.<br /> Saying "yes I feel better" may also seem the fastest way to get out of the room and back in control of your life.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="exKukcnPi7kA_7pyptoGWIYYP89p69vr4GT4ehm-seY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476787084"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think the fact the double blind RCT of acupuncture, reiki etc can make it past an Ethics Review Board is kind of an admission that these treatments have no real effect outside of placebo.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t5XFY7DeLcwKd90zS7wxKNaaseMd0WsFTpTs9ci3Wa0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">FB (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476792447"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Okay lads and lasses, I'm a bit lost on one part of this. How can a trial on Reiki be Double Blinded? </p> <p>Surely the practitioner will be aware that it's either bolllocks; or genuinely believes it. Which makes it a Single Blind. </p> <p>Or have I got this completely arse upwards?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZKgJuFrNubTcN2yxu2ambJ1IsunzW1RcUWhtCoqU7H8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Peebs (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476796912"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Todd #4: I'm curious; WHY wouldn't they use real accupuncture in their study? Were they afraid it would fail?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jgRiu1Cd2LNhCfBYEzTljd6KjpYNhKMsgqKk4cSHcQs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476806196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>tgobbi @2: No, it's not confirmation bias, it's something else (which is of course escaping me at the moment). It's a real issue in survey design, particularly when you have an in-person interviewer. The study subject will (intentionally or not) tell the interviewer what they think the interviewer wants to hear (or what is socially acceptable). </p> <p>It's really hard to work around, which is why you might have to use a phone or paper survey for the kind of stuff people don't want to admit in person (how much do you drink, do you hit your kids, how many sexual partners have you had).</p> <p>Socialization bias, maybe?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KZEsVEPZsMbW84fTfiPQHgcvyPKbMpE-PRLgYY8oqKY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476834572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One obvious lesson of the whole NCCIH experience is that it's important to stick to the Science when determining which treatments are safe and effective, and that the use of political muscle to ram approval through does not generally lead to good outcomes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="swZJ07GcSk9QX-TmqP-Q2SCn2m8lDB6H4SjSUDFwxG8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Robert L Bell (not verified)</span> on 18 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476857657"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Panacea</p> <p>I'd have to go back and check, but I don't think they explained that anywhere in the protocol.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bsI6eXzbrJlCZ5QSMVQPO2299PHw346HTqM_ipK9bCk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476857784"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow. I was so distracted by all the "quackery" language that I got bored trying to extract the point of the article. I am passionate about science, many fields of science and I don't project my ignorance, fear, or judgment on those that use alternative methods for healing. That's because I am all grown up now, and my mind is free and open to - possibility, curiosity and imagination. Poorly written article and I lost all respect for what you are trying to say. Cocky and arrogant.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZmdCaOdC6q3SCjeXfbQHHzeiFCtqxzCpe49I3yKFIBg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Amber Brown Skylar (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1345677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476858781"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So let's see. I used the word "quack," "quackademic," or "quackery" a few times in the first three paragraphs. After that, I didn't use the term once and soberly discussed the study. So ask yourself this: If I were to remove the first three paragraphs, would this post have made you think or change your mind? I rather suspect that the answer is no, and you just latched on to the language as an excuse to reject it.</p> <p>Alternatively, how about this? Try ignoring the first three paragraphs and then telling me what, in the rest of the post, I got wrong and why. I'm sure you can base your arguments on science and evidence, right?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="krkhYQkcQQPOBpCM-C0h4KI8OhDNwi2FgCHXUEVvdeA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1345676#comment-1345676" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Amber Brown Skylar (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476859460"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ironic that someone purportedly concerned about tone so readily engages in name-calling.</p> <p>Too bad. I was interested in hearing what Amber had to say about alternative methods for healing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KOPB8aLu8CWMGp8vvrBvtYwCaKrcd72HDx-E2JnJ4nA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345679" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476874979"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I found it very disappointing to read the obvious bias expressed in this narrow minded piece. I have to admit, that there us some 'quackery' associated with so-called. 'complimentary medicine', especially in so.e corners of TCM and other traditional approaches.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345679&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JxawZ1QsM57kmlm85Us6ZIUSREJSOLsoQMaKWnASy98"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345679">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345680" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476876166"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>*Continued from above*</p> <p>However, to lump a manual therapy like acupuncture in with reiki and the like is a mistake. The sensations and therapeutic effect from acupuncture is profound, and comparable to that of the rarely criticized approaches of massage, chiropractic and physio therapy. So say that the insertion of a fine, sterile needle into appropriately sensitive areas carries no more than illegitimized placebo, or 'quackery' as you so eagerly put, only highlights your own preconceived notions of acupuncture. In actuality, there are distinctly measurable physiological, neurological and endocrine effects that are consistent with current neuroscience and pain science coming out of Australia, notably from the NOI group and affiliates.</p> <p>If you were to pay attention to the details, you would understand that placebo cannot apply when studying any manual therapy like acupuncture, massage, chiropractic, or PT, because it is impossible to pretend to stick an needle, massage, adjust, etc, let alone convince the patient they are receiving sham, or placebo approaches. </p> <p>I understand the need to unblind the patient and practitioner in growing our understanding of what the limitations and benefits of placebo are, but to use this as a podium to deride 'quackery' is far beside the point.</p> <p>You may be correct in pointing out biases in the above studies, but you miss the forrest for the trees.</p> <p>Sad, narrow minded, biased, and overall negative stance on an essential practice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345680&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="e2UUq-MIfR9X30XV3dVfnaEwyPhDzNu2IsA5Djvlxek"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345680">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="28" id="comment-1345681" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476876933"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>However, to lump a manual therapy like acupuncture in with reiki and the like is a mistake. The sensations and therapeutic effect from acupuncture is profound, and comparable to that of the rarely criticized approaches of massage, chiropractic and physio therapy. So say that the insertion of a fine, sterile needle into appropriately sensitive areas carries no more than illegitimized placebo, or ‘quackery’ as you so eagerly put, only highlights your own preconceived notions of acupuncture. In actuality, there are distinctly measurable physiological, neurological and endocrine effects that are consistent with current neuroscience and pain science coming out of Australia, notably from the NOI group and affiliates.</p></blockquote> <p>Citation needed.</p> <p>I've written many times about why acupuncture is nothing more than a theatrical placebo. Type the word "acupuncture" into the search box, and there are literally dozens of posts on the topic. Some examples:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/04/13/once-again-acupuncture-doesnt-work-for-menopausal-hot-flashes/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/04/13/once-again-acupuncture-doe…</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/04/25/yet-again-acupuncture-does-not-work-for-menopausal-hot-flashes/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/04/25/yet-again-acupuncture-does…</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/02/14/more-tooth-fairy-science-studying-acupuncture/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/02/14/more-tooth-fairy-science-s…</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/07/03/more-tooth-fairy-science-acupuncture-does-not-improve-in-vitro-fertilization-success-rates-no-matter-what-acupuncturists-say/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/07/03/more-tooth-fairy-science-a…</a></p> <p>There are many more. Because this post was about a study about placebos, I used acupuncture as an example. However, the post was already long enough that I don't have to list every single thing I've ever written about acupuncture. If you want an overview of why acupuncture is an elaborate placebo, I recommend this article:</p> <p><a href="http://www.dcscience.net/2013/05/30/acupuncture-is-a-theatrical-placebo-the-end-of-a-myth/">http://www.dcscience.net/2013/05/30/acupuncture-is-a-theatrical-placebo…</a></p> <p>Basically, acupuncture has no specific effects on any condition yet studied.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345681&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Xf4vedfFtWxcvTGuDf6nsCJK_0uuczq3qLmAw1Np4Qo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345681">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/oracknows"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/oracknows" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/orac2-150x150-120x120.jpg?itok=N6Y56E-P" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user oracknows" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1345680#comment-1345680" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joel (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345682" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476879326"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> so-called. ‘complimentary medicine’</i></p> <p>You're looking good! Your liver is in amazing health for a man of your habits! Your kidneys are the greatest! That will be $50, please.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345682&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MLmJWhg8NX9H62J5xBiPLr9_WWJmpbRJqqAgqF1Pc8o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345682">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345683" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476879447"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Amber Brown Skylar<br /> Wow. I was so distracted by all the “quackery” language that I got bored trying to extract the point of the article.</i></p> <p>I sympathise with Amber's distractability. With me it's squirrels. And shiny objects.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345683&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YHAup9_TBz5x-xVlCEGQxNy1ZIJZHDZQB68E304GqnA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345683">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345684" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476881369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re " Poorly written article"</p> <p>SRSLY.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345684&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kXglcJy2mDK2CI-OgIOhJbJG76sQ9k3i4ClWW9V3Zcs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345684">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345685" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476886043"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"If you were to pay attention to the details, you would understand that placebo cannot apply when studying any manual therapy like acupuncture, massage, chiropractic, or PT, because it is impossible to pretend to stick an needle, massage, adjust, etc, let alone convince the patient they are receiving sham, or placebo approaches."</p> <p>Untrue.</p> <p>Placebo-controlled trials of acupuncture have been done, and have served to demonstrate that perceptions of improvement occur whether or not the needle punctures the skin (or is inserted in locations that have nothing to do with sites that supposedly improve the flow of "qi".</p> <p>Placebo intervention is also possible with manual techniques like chiropractic.</p> <p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26246937">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26246937</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345685&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q4bhq17OnEPrB_nH9JI2ayRD-34puxT6IcHGFU8ptKc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345685">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345686" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476887045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The sensations and therapeutic effect from acupuncture is profound [<i>sic</i>]</p></blockquote> <p>Do go on about these <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocRVFI4EggM">sensations</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345686&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="drDwLF3jhtyJKcND3nUlkpLM4aW6qwPrgucSO1Tvd9c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 19 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345686">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345687" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476993504"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>All hail the awesome miraculous power of mind/faith. Belief can cure. Or if not cure, make one feel better. Not actually be better but feel as if one is better. And that’s an amazing grace in itself, Kaptchuk thinks. It’s okay for doctors to tell their patients that this pill is a placebo, it’s powerless in itself, but if you put your faith in it – and in me – then you will feel better. Your faith will heal you. Trust me, it’s been scientifically proven.<br /> Only it hasn’t been. It’s just smoke and mirrors dressed up in white coats. It’s duplicitous hocus-pocus. It’s a lie.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345687&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LQF7B4w1BsQOXLBUqjud8ET-QiqAJOs_iAXBHBJCZ9Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Leigh Jackson (not verified)</span> on 20 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345687">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345688" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1476996331"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Additionally, patients were told that “placebo pills, something like sugar pills, have been shown in rigorous clinical testing to produce significant mind-body self-healing processes.” </p> <p>--<br /> How did anyone think that was ok to tell patients? What the hell?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345688&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EKOX-owZB0t-83tkl8nm1Y8mmD3r4GS8AxehKNSrBwE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magpie (not verified)</span> on 20 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345688">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345689" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477072059"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" ... when RCTs come up negative for acupuncture, homeopathy, reiki, or whatever, they cannot accept that their woo doesn’t work and simply walk away. So instead, for example, they make excuses ... " </p> <p>It all sounds very familiar ... for example in the above statement substitute PSA screening or mammography for the woo and the "they" would be a whole lot of unethical real doctor's with m.d.'s after their names. </p> <p>It's not about science ... and its definitely not about "do no harm" ... its about money.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345689&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GnNhniyXDdlz0zk4n_GQ5mKC1s0EEZrThvM35Q_lUtM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ed Dwulet (not verified)</span> on 21 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345689">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345690" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477072468"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>for example in the above statement substitute PSA screening or mammography for the woo</p></blockquote> <p>Do go back to the thread you started in. Randomly interjecting the PSA monomania because you're not getting enough attention is thoroughly irritating.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345690&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZUgkHwd2Rj1ai-X_Gu7hSV-Po9pFiz5DYD6_pVsyYrY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 21 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345690">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477099786"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Ed Dwulet<br /> RCTs came up positive for mammography.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8z5nnIiIQdnAb45V5hziR0cxUSCmKqztAz7XQZrUDWw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 21 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477132790"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Daniel @#29</p> <p>You could have gone all the way and said I was completely wrong by claiming there were positive RCT's for PSA screening too.</p> <p>My response would be: barely "positive" ... and had they all been performed BEFOREHAND -- neither would or could ever be rationally used to justify implementation of widespread screening because the barely positive came at the cost of tremendous harm. </p> <p>The RCT's were all performed long 'after the fact" -- not before -- by a "system" with a financial interest in "proving" they were right all along -- and to justify continuing the status quo. </p> <p>So every few years we get to read another "Study Says Mammograms Saves Lives" headline ... OK, you're right ... after the statistical numbers games are played to generate an abstract artifact called "significance" -- meanwhile lots of real lives are being ruined.</p> <p>THINK PINK!</p> <p>I just read a news item that said someone was finally organizing a RCT for DCIS -- about 40 years late, wouldn't you say? A famous epidemiologist once advised "Randomize the FIRST patient." I doubt that they'll be able to recruit any patients from the USA after the 40 years of breast scare mongering that's gone on here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kWDwgS_sBkcoJwOykJOWRmqbHFLUir2s7IRihIwIgzA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ed Dwulet (not verified)</span> on 22 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477189464"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Ed Dwulet<br /> Tabar et al. (Lancet, 1985) found a 31% reduction in breast cancer mortality, 7 years after the beginning of the trial. Nationwide screening began later in most countries.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q_C0uBGa1jDmziJmrc29lD6MQPdpNO4O2T1sPJIKGWY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 22 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477310030"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Daniel @#41</p> <p>Wow! 31% Sounds impressive! It isn't! 31% of what?<br /> And at what costs in harm? No to mention that 31% completely disappears when the stats game is played another way. </p> <p>"Why cancer screening has never been shown to “save lives”<br /><a href="http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.h6080">http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.h6080</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Qz6F_1Gr77OLTlFK9_RUJZbqIZtZIgwozstrzlMbW-4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ed Dwulet (not verified)</span> on 24 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477321688"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Ed Dwulet<br /> 31% of breast cancer mortality, as I said, and after 7 years of screening. Lumpectomy causes harm, but not death. And the benefit in breast cancer mortality vanishes in longer studies, because cancer incidence increases.<br /> The BMJ paper does not answer the question for breast cancer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v6CG1fOD-sAMSL2g5dM9HssZGZQ0imb-UiVyyS_Xrnw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 24 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1477377274"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The New York Times reported on the study in today's paper and seems to have swallowed the conclusion hook line and sinker. No critical analysis in it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345696&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CbFo3cJoLVUEQ46n8Onv8uOjjY40Mzqc-z4ZgKTeNdU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Levine (not verified)</span> on 25 Oct 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345696">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345697" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1481502325"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"“It’s the benefit of being immersed in treatment: interacting with a physician or nurse, taking pills, all the rituals and symbols of our healthcare system,” Kaptchuk said. “The body responds to that.”<br /> Well, of course. That has already been well-documented. So why are there no studies where the "rituals and symbols" are also removed? A triple or quadruple blind RCT? Nobody in the role of patient or practitioner, with the scientists remaining deeply hidden beneath several layers of protocol. A candid camera kind of thing. "Move along please. No test going on here. Nothing to see."<br /> "Surprise, surprise, Mr IBS. You've been wondering why your pooping is less painful? You've been secretly administered a sugar pill over the last 21 days and a hidden camera has been following you in the rest room..."<br /> I conducted an as yet unpublished study in 2008: "VooDoo, suggestibility and the placebo effect: real arsenic kills 100% whereas only 14% of subjects who were told they had been administered arsenic after swallowing sugar pills. actually died within two months."<br /> Telling the patient that they were receiving sugar pills when being administered arsenic killed with the same frequency as those who were told it was arsenic AND the control group who were unaware of receiving a fatal dose.<br /> Our conclusion was that real arsenic is significantly more effective in killing people than VooDoo, suggestion or a hate-filled relationship.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345697&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KJkgTfIgt8misn2Xly6awKteSzFIxQwbUYk0n8V1OK4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Richard Morgan (not verified)</span> on 11 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345697">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1345698" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1481733996"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Finally, we already know that interacting with a kind physician or nurse makes people think they feel better."<br /> This sentence would be more accurate with two edits:<br /> "Finally, we already know that interacting with a (*) physician or nurse makes people (**) feel better."<br /> I demonstrate this in my book, "Help! OK."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1345698&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NtS_Dvs6Da7PlKEYkeTuXPtDZGVMB79KfU4Wxd3S1KQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Richard Morgan (not verified)</span> on 14 Dec 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1345698">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/10/18/rehashing-the-myth-of-placebo-without-deception%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 18 Oct 2016 04:30:06 +0000 oracknows 22412 at https://scienceblogs.com NCCIH research: Nothing much there behind the curtain https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/01/07/nccih-research-nothing-much-there-behind-the-curtain <span>NCCIH research: Nothing much there behind the curtain</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's an understatement to say that I'm not exactly a fan of the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH), the institute formerly known as the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) and, even a year after its name change, probably still better known by its old moniker. Just type "NCCAM" or "NCCIH" into the search box of this blog if you don't believe me. Basically, it's an institution forced upon the National Institutes of Health in the 1990s by Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA), a woo-friendly senator who believed that bee pollen cured his allergies and a man who seven years ago <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/02/maybe-nccam-isnt-so-bad-after-allnahhh/">famously chastised NCCAM</a> for not having "validated" enough complementary and alternative medicine (CAM).</p> <p>While on the surface, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want to study "unconventional" treatments that fall under the rubric of CAM or "integrative medicine," skeptics' criticisms of NCCIH have basically boiled down to these: First, NCCIH has been wasting money on magic, treatments like reiki (faith healing substituting Eastern mysticism for Christian belief), homeopathy (although in fairness I haven't been able to find an NCCIH-funded homeopathy study since 2008), and the like. Second, NCCIH promotes the "integration" of pseudoscience into medicine through its funding of "training programs" in CAM in medical schools, as with Georgetown. Third, it is unnecessary. There is nothing that NCCIH studies that couldn't or wouldn't be studied through grants by other Centers and Institutes at the NIH. As Harriet Hall says about naturopathy, what is good about NCCIH is not unique, and what is unique about NCCIH is not good. It's not as though, if NCCIH ceased to exist, the various areas "rebranded" as "CAM" or "integrative medicine," such as placebo effects, the effect of lifestyle interventions on disease and health, or supplements, to name a few, wouldn't be studied if there were scientific merit. All NCCIH brings to the table is a culture with a willingness to study pseudoscience, complete with quacks such as chiropractors, naturopaths, on <a href="https://nccih.nih.gov/about/naccih">its advisory council</a>. Finally, little of value has ever been demonstrated using NCCIH grants or by NCCIH investigators. Studies of supplements have been disappointing at best, and no truly "alternative" treatment has ever been validated by the NCCIH.</p> <!--more--><p>Of course, Josephine Briggs, the current director of NCCIH, would apparently beg to differ. The other day, she published a post on the NCCIH blog about what she considers to be notable research from 2015 funded by the center.</p> <blockquote><p> Christina Smolke, Ph.D., of Stanford University was featured as one of <em>Nature</em>’s <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/365-days-nature-s-10-1.19018">10 People Who Mattered This Year</a> for her team’s successful engineering of a yeast strain capable of making opioids. This achievement—the most complicated chemical synthesis ever engineered in yeast—was also highlighted as one of the runners-up for “<a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/350/6267/1458.full">Breakthrough of the Year”</a> in <em>Science</em>.</p> <p>Ted Kaptchuk’s work on placebo was recently featured in <em>The New Yorker</em> as one of “<a href="http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-most-notable-medical-findings-of-2015">The Most Notable Medical Findings of 2015</a>.” Ted, a longtime NCCIH grantee, published several articles last year, including about how genes affect the placebo response.</p> <p><a href="http://www.usnews.com/news/slideshows/what-nih-funded-in-2015/4">U.S. News and World Report</a> highlighted the work of Dr. Beth Bock at Miriam Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island for her research on yoga as an effective therapy for smoking cessation, particularly for individuals who either cannot use medications, or who choose not to use medications while quitting.</p></blockquote> <p>At this, I scratched my head, particularly the first one. Smolke's work, as impressive as it sounds, also doesn't sound as though it has anything to do with "alternative" or "integrative" health. Take a look at <em>Nature</em>'s description of her research. About a year ago, there was a race to engineer a strain of yeast that can produce opioids because a more stable production method would be highly useful, given the unpredictable yields of poppy crops. However, no one had been able to identify an enzyme that converts reticuline, a chemical building block of morphine and other narcotics, from one form to another. Smolke used a very clever approach to solving this problem:</p> <blockquote><p> Most other labs hunting for the enzyme were working to isolate it from poppies directly. But Smolke and her team at Stanford University, California, took a different approach: they combed through genetic databases, looking for snippets of sequence that looked as if they might be involved in reticuline metabolism. When they found a hit from several different poppy species, they ordered a synthetic version of the gene that had been built letter-by-letter by a machine. They plugged it into yeast and it worked. “I was super excited, really proud and also relieved,” Smolke says. “It was a bit of a Hail Mary.”</p> <p>The discovery enabled Smolke’s lab to stitch together a pathway of 23 different genes from plants, mammals, bacteria and yeast to produce the world’s first narcotic through synthetic biology (S. Galanie et al. Science 349, 1095–1100; 2015). It was a crowning achievement for a biological wunderkind who started her own lab at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena at the age of just 28. The opioid-producing yeast cells contain the most complex synthetic-biology pathway developed so far, and mark a turning point for the field by showing how step-by-step engineering can turn microbes into drug factories. “This will significantly impact our future ability to produce many more chemicals through biotechnology,” says Jens Nielsen, a synthetic biologist at the Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg, Sweden.</p></blockquote> <p>This is truly an impressive achievement, clearly a breakthrough, allowing yeast to turn sugar into thebaine, the precursor of synthetic opioids like hydrocodone and oxycodone, but what does it have to do with "integrative health." Pretty much nothing that I can see. It's standard biotechnology cleverly exploited and pushed beyond its previous limits to do something new. Nature points out that her goal is not just to produce opioids but to design new opioids free of the most troublesome side effects, such as dependency and addiction. This is standard medicinal chemistry, only using a new technology to approach the problem. <em>Science</em> also notes that, as yet, this process is very inefficient and would likely require thousands of liters of culture to produce a single dose. Of course, Smolke is now working on increasing the yeast's output to levels that could be used to manufacture opioids.</p> <p>I looked up the grant funding Smolke's research, <a href="https://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8910649&amp;icde=27654187">Synthetic Biology Platforms for Natural Products Discovery</a>. This grant was indeed funded by NCCIH and was funded through the NIH Director's Pioneer Award (DP1) mechanism, which is described as a program that "complements NIH’s traditional, investigator-initiated grant programs by supporting individual scientists of exceptional creativity who propose pioneering and possibly transforming approaches to addressing major biomedical or behavioral challenges that have the potential to produce an unusually high impact on a broad area of biomedical or behavioral research." I'd agree that Smolke's work qualifies, but I fail to see anything traditionally considered "integrative" about it. After all, she's trying to develop a technique to manufacture opioids more efficiently and then improve upon them! Most "integrative" techniques try to avoid opioids.</p> <p>Does anyone think the NIH wouldn't have funded this work if NCCIH didn't exist? I don't, particularly given that this was funded through the Director's Pioneer Award. In fact, given that such special mechanisms usually don't go through specific institutes or centers brings up the question of how, when this grant achieved a fundable score, it got assigned to NCCIH. That might be a more disturbing thing about Smolke's work than anything else, that someone at NIH thought it appropriate to have NCCIH fund this. This is an example of what is good about NCCIH not being unique to NCCIH.</p> <p>Moving on, I've written about Ted Kaptchuk more times than I can remember. As you might recall, he's the traditional Chinese medicine maven on faculty at Harvard Medical School who's done a lot of research on placebo effects and tried to spin it as evidence that placebo effects can actually have therapeutic effects. Of course, his research hasn't exactly shown that, such as when he showed that a placebo intervention for asthma did indeed make asthmatics feel as good as a real intervention (namely an albuterol inhaler) without having any detectable effect on the pathophysiology of the disease. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/18/dangerous-placebo-medicine-in-asthma/">As I pointed out</a>, that's a very dangerous situation because it could deceive an asthma sufferer into thinking he's doing much better than he is. He could be moments from a respiratory arrest and not realize it. Other times, Kaptchuk tried to show that there can be <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/04/credulous-reporting-on-placebo-effects-s/">placebo effects without deception</a> while in actuality <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">showing exactly the opposite</a>. The list of examples goes on.</p> <p>What I can't figure out is why he's on this list, in particular why Jerome Groopman included him on a list of the <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-most-notable-medical-findings-of-2015">most notable medical findings of 2015</a>, as I don't recall any significant findings by Kaptchuk this year. Indeed, a reader showed me Groopman's article a week or two ago, and I briefly considered blogging it. I decided not to because the gruel was so thin:</p> <blockquote><p> <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/12/12/the-power-of-nothing">Ted Kaptchuk</a> is a pioneer in elucidating the placebo effect, acting as a nodal point among researchers ranging from anthropology to genomics. This year, he and his colleagues published a paper that highlights how people may be genetically predisposed to, or resistant to, the placebo effect. The relevant genes govern molecules that shape our moods and goal-driven behaviors. Also this year, Kaptchuk published on the ethics of placebos, which physicians once prescribed routinely for diseases that had no remedy. He and his co-authors emphasize how the placebo effect arises not only from swallowing an inert pill from a bottle but also, as I experienced, from the intimate interaction between the sufferer and the healer. Reading these articles, I couldn’t help but recall <a href="http://www.theonion.com/article/fda-approves-sale-of-prescription-placebo-1606">a headline</a> that appeared in The Onion, in 2003: “FDA Approves Sale of Prescription Placebo.”</p></blockquote> <p>It's interesting that Groopman cites <a href="https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/michael-specter-on-the-placebo-effect/">Michael Specter's somewhat misguided article on Ted Kaptchuk and placebo effects</a>. In any case, after this I still couldn't figure out why Groopman would include Kaptchuk as someone with notable scientific achievements in 2015 because, well, I don't really recall there being any. In any case, what article was Groopman referring to when he mentioned an article on the the ethics of using placebos is this <em>New England Journal of Medicine</em> article <a href="http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1504023">Placebo Effects in Medicine</a>. It's a Perspective article, which means it's not original research but rather commentary. It's basically the same stuff Kaptchuk has been saying for years, admitting that placebo effects don't have significant effects on disease pathophysiology but insisting that they are not "bogus."</p> <p>As for the genetics research, all I could find was a review article in which Kaptchuk refers to the "placebome" (because, you know, in this ages of genomes, proteomes, metabolomes, etc., everything has to be an "-ome," even the "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/04/26/woo-omics/">woo-ome</a>," as <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/21/ayurgenomics-the-return-of-woo-omics/">I like to call it</a>). He also published a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26226597">meta-analysis of placebo responses in genetically determined intellectual disability</a> in PLoS One. Overall, Kaptchuk's output last year hasn't included anything particularly interesting. The "placeboes without deception" study, as poorly interpreted as it does, was at least interesting. Ditto the asthma study. Anything in 2015? Not so much. In any case, Groopman is closer to the truth than he realizes when he compares Kaptchuk's editorial to <em>The Onion</em>. Basically Ted Kaptchuk is an example of what is unique to NCCIH not being good. Instead of objectively studying placebo effects, Kaptchuk has an agenda to promote a message that CAM "works" through placebo effects and that placebo effects have real therapeutic effects.</p> <p>Finally we come to Beth Bock. This is what the <a href="http://www.usnews.com/news/slideshows/what-nih-funded-in-2015/4">US News &amp; World Report</a> said about her:</p> <blockquote><p> Though medications have been effective at helping smokers quit, the majority of smokers don't use them, and more than 40 percent of smokers report failed attempts each year. <a href="https://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8822835&amp;icde=27577554&amp;ddparam=&amp;ddvalue=&amp;ddsub=&amp;cr=25&amp;csb=default&amp;cs=ASC">Researchers</a> at Miriam Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island, are turning to yoga as an alternative therapy for tobacco sensation.</p> <p>For this research, the NIH awarded the hospital a grant of $593,064.</p></blockquote> <p>Basically, it's an R01 grant, <a href="https://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8822835&amp;icde=27577554&amp;ddparam=&amp;ddvalue=&amp;ddsub=&amp;cr=25&amp;csb=default&amp;cs=ASC">Efficacy of yoga as an alternative therapy for smoking cessation</a>. The clinical trial funded by this can be found <a href="https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01809678">here</a>. It's still recruiting and apparently hasn't been published. Basically it's an open label study comparing smoking cessation plus yoga consisting of twice weekly, 1-hour yoga classes delivered for 8 weeks combined with once-weekly, 1-hour cognitive-behavioral smoking cessation classes with smoking cessation plus wellness training, consisting of twice-weekly, one-hour Wellness classes given on a variety of health topics twice weekly to match schedule of the yoga classes, plus 1-hour per week of cognitive-behavioral smoking cessation.</p> <p>What's the rationale for the study? This:</p> <blockquote><p> Our research, and the research of other investigators, has demonstrated that traditional (Western) exercise (e.g., brisk walking, bicycling) improves smokers' ability to successfully quit. Exercise may help smokers quit by reducing concerns regarding post-cessation weight gain, and by reducing nicotine withdrawal and enhancing mood. Recent research suggests that yoga is an acceptable and potentially effective alternative therapy for smoking cessation for several reasons: As a form of exercise, yoga shares many of the same properties as traditional (Western) aerobic exercise in that yoga has been shown to improve mood, physical fitness, weight control, self-image and quality of life in healthy and ill populations. Moreover, features of yoga, including a focus on breathing, mental concentration, meditation, stress reduction and enhanced mood are likely to have special relevance for smokers who are trying to quit. Thus, yoga may be particularly attractive as an alternative for individuals who either cannot use medications, or who choose not to use medications while quitting.</p></blockquote> <p>I fail to see what's so special here. The investigators state that exercising can help smokers quit. Yoga is a form of exercise. Big deal. Assuming exercise improves smokers' ability to successfully quit, I expect that this study will likely be positive also because it adds a regular exercise program in the form of yoga to cognitive-behavioral therapy for smoking cessation. What would be interesting is what's not being studied: Exercise known to help smokers quit versus yoga. This appears to be yet another example of what is good about NCCIH not being unique. Unfortunately, because pretty much all exercise and lifestyle interventions for health have been "rebranded" as CAM or "integrative," they get lumped in with all the pseudoscience in CAM, such as traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, naturopathy, reiki, and the like, and it's frequently the same people studying lifestyle and exercise interventions who also engage in quackademic research into rank pseudoscience. Again, there's no need for an NCCIH to fund this research; it could be perfectly well handled by another center or institute in the NIH.</p> <p>Presumably, Briggs picked the three best examples of good science she could find from the entire NCCIH portfolio of grants. If that's the case, her list strikes me as pretty pathetic. It includes research that has little or nothing to do with CAM and everything to do with molecular biology, biotechnology, and synthetic biochemistry, research that oversells placebo effects, and a clinical trial that reinvents the wheel by testing yoga as yet another form of exercise to help people quit smoking. More than anything else, this thin research portfolio indicates that NCCIH has no real scientific rationale to continue to exist.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Thu, 01/07/2016 - 02:50</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/josephine-briggs" hreflang="en">Josephine Briggs</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/national-center-complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/national-center-complementary-and-integrative-health" hreflang="en">National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nccam" hreflang="en">NCCAM</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nccih" hreflang="en">NCCIH</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/opioids" hreflang="en">opioids</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ted-kaptchuk" hreflang="en">Ted Kaptchuk</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/yoga" hreflang="en">yoga</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324342" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452155470"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So two of the three examples Briggs listed are there solely because they were mentioned in the popular press, rather than on the basis of any solid scientific results? And these are supposed to be her best examples? With most government funding agencies, that kind of lack of productivity tends to get your project/mission terminated.</p> <p>I agree that Smolke's work is significant, but as you say, it seems odd that NCCIH rather than some other NIH program is funding it. This looks like an example of a blind squirrel finding an acorn.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324342&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="89zkR0b2XXG2FqdjNf2bKD46JQ_L01X3HnzdUx4BeYQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324342">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324343" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452157372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I see ninjas from Mercola stealing these genetically engineered yeast to sell as "All-natural pain relief Baker's Yeast" on woo web sites. </p> <p>Next up: yeast engineered to make naloxone.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324343&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GINRTs5RwCEotn2jjL5H-Qv8hAuIZLbC02_t7AmUHQM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324343">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324344" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452162343"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"...traditional (Western) exercise..."</p> <p>Heh!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324344&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="49MI92fReC-gD8sZbyDxk1v6_tRCCpx0HTd8_R8eJv4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rs (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324344">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324345" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452169812"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“…traditional (Western) exercise…”</p> <p>Heh! </p></blockquote> <p>Bronco bustin', calf ropin", headin' 'em off at the pass?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324345&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1dRMdJyGDhByhGKcT9mDmrVmCw8qfhVMOOQmSguQ0wA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324345">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324346" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452178518"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dogie rollin?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324346&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i45hyksB5XgaHPByLPNrTJLd1YS4Sxd2MsW_5Y2lyCc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NumberWang (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324346">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324347" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452185378"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I thought it was *hard( to get grants, and that your study proposal/plan/protocol had to be beyond reproach? Clearly not when your money comes from NCCIH.<br /> If I designed a study that compared two such different things as "yoga" and "wellness classes" in a study about if yoga is as good as aerobic exercise for supporting smoking cessation, my boss would laugh at me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324347&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A9_P4JmVS6B6pb_iF0i_WveDWv6DjAWejVZbwUnAK50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324347">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324348" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452191103"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dr. Do-little's (back) in the house. Of course. :-)</p> <p>-Jamie (Ariel) Parsons</p> <p>(Look up the meaning of the names.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324348&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZDNzm557J71GAxTJZ-NYLRBbEjcz8KBr7H5RWlOduNc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324348">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324349" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452192408"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Dr. Do-little’s (back) in the house</i></p> <p>It is tempting to approach NCCIH with a research proposal for talking to the animals.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324349&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VST1QjfpWus7v7jS-Upgv_df0QZM6ES-ZIWFahdStP0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324349">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324350" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452196289"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It looks a lot like Briggs has dredged up references in the popular press to research funded by her agency and is promoting these as notable research. Well, there were notable in that they were noted in the popular press, but other than Smolke's work not that notable as science.</p> <p>If this is all you have to show for $124 million of funding spent, I would be embarrassed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324350&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y1Og0i_lHfuBV4fFfjifyKIdlm0WwMs1PKdVPG2kDVQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Preston (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324350">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324351" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452198822"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OT but really...</p> <p>Orac, when I click on some of the 'Insolence returned' I get security warnings about the site -<br /> Danger Danger! blah blah blah.<br /> I thought you should know in case it means anything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324351&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Inx4f_MgjH5BQAITP8QxPQZFiUxDUuceExvDsHfDv64"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324351">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324352" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452199682"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Denice, for some reason those are the ones where the "http" has been turned into an "https", which is for those with secure certification. Just remove the "s."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324352&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d8uK09_k0Jp3U6m0Pk2gL-0FUckM4X_ajoWo7kEHM6M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324352">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324353" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452200395"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Chris:</p> <p>Thanks but now it's not doing it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324353&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FngnrL1eDnbXKNevuPaScFHOST5QcAvQ1u1ZlEWGfrs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324353">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324354" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452202091"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, it is kind of an inconsistent annoyance.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324354&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="awiP_y_G-hqBbQDa2Lpqd5fcQkia36g82qycdeiz53c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324354">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324355" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452202609"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And I just got it at "The Spudd."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324355&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fIQt8m9RhtU1nsPE-KpJU8ZZVqsKcLt6hg-K0oDX6hM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324355">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324356" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452216927"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi, Orac! Great to see you're still blogging here.<br /> Not sure if you remember me, but I used to blog at the now-defunct Signout, and am trying to get back into my account to manage a few things. Do you know the contact info of the administrator, who might be able to help me regain access?<br /> My email address should show up with this comment, but let me know if not and I can leave it in a second comment.<br /> Thanks in advance, and big regards all around!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324356&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cxjgNuqy8BG__Y1cLDNHNgbVI579h68czJnYy5gj_lw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Keren (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324356">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324357" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452224011"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Have they lost their minds? As you point out, none of the examples should have qualified for funding under the program. Given those examples, anything goes. </p> <p>The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH) is about the most inane title for an institute as I have ever seen, so I suppose I shouldn't be entirely surprised by their confusing behavior. At least the former moniker brandished the word "Medicine", but as you explained in a previous blog, that flew in the face of what the FDA deems to be legal and any treatments funded under the program would therefore become de facto claims in violation of the law, so the name had to be changed to protect the purveyors of so-called alternative and complementary medicines, which are plainly drugs marketed under the guise of dietary supplements. The same goes for anything else used in the treatment or prevention of disease. As a result, clinical trials of dietary supplements will increasingly be conducted elsewhere.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324357&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FmFXqSOvh3aeVIZUmZl_gshFCz4qXriIw6sixK7u4Qw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lighthorse (not verified)</span> on 07 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324357">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324358" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452280572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the basis of an apparent soft spot for rehab professionals, acquired from his history of treatment for back pain, Groopman includes a paper on genetic predisposition to the placebo effect amongst the most notable medical findings of the year. He doesn't explain what makes the paper medically notable, as he does for his other six most notables.</p> <p>Instead he links to an interview with the author of the placebo paper - by a very sympathetic placebo-friendly interviewer.<br /> All of which is re-cited by the NIH's institute for placebo medicine: NCCIH. Who just happen to have dished out lots of dosh to the particular placebo researcher in question.</p> <p>Shame on the lot.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324358&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XxOqNdQbJJMrWnwTYmFHxfL_vruj4StJGzdL7meH1hA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Leigh Jackson (not verified)</span> on 08 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324358">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324359" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452325766"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The inclusion of yoga in alternative medicine continues to baffle me; the only reason I can see why yoga would be lumped in with other woo-ly modalities is the insistence of most of its practitioners on needlessly incorporating dollops of Eastern mysticism into the practice, with a view to roping in the gullible.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324359&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uqtYhiy6ySzUjf9s5garS2Z1e394f8DefIbvyMutVE0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kausik Datta (not verified)</span> on 09 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324359">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324360" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452347595"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As useless as SETI</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324360&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YDOQUIR5OB-BljNlkQN4VscEkJV5uZ-ACMZsrfzaRuQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gary (not verified)</span> on 09 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324360">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324361" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452351915"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Gary - at least SETI has a chance of paying off....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324361&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-aCt6TEWrxRiO0IAn6WYD9Thq-kSSlFpnRgcu2lHCkA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 09 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324361">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324362" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452355054"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lawrence@19</p> <blockquote><p>@Gary – at least SETI has a chance of paying off….</p></blockquote> <p>Super off topic, but I heard an interesting thought on SETI a while back. The idea was that an advanced civilization would have encrypt their communications (as we do now) and therefore would be indistinguishable from random noise. For all we SETI has been receiving alien broadcasts this entire time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324362&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IWPTkfCvyfA0iigNSNB3q3SlZGNlMie4wGdxB9nx960"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 09 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324362">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324363" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452356824"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>SETI is scientifically plausible, unlike, say, homeopathy.</p> <p>We <i>might</i><i> find some sort of life in our solar system, but a program like SETI is the only way we stand a chance of finding intelligent life somewhere other than earth. </i></p> <p>PING times will be outrageous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324363&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5y7Vmzh20X8poMqGMUQhnwskVRDToYXKaHIvDMeqFx0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 09 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324363">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324364" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454659421"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For your education and amusement:<br /><a href="http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-4-mystical-healing-techniques-actually-feel-like/">http://www.cracked.com/blog/what-4-mystical-healing-techniques-actually…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324364&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t0Z-NvfCJPLzCX1VHK2Vva9Ozbhq3nMUhSmuEf0N7PE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324364">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1324365" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454670728"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Julian Frost: For pete's sake....your #23 needs a "DO NOT DRINK" warning. I laughed until I cried AND inhaled my water.</p> <p>Thanks for making my lousy snowy Friday better. (hmmmmm...back ache after shoveling the heavy wet snow...acupuncture or reiki?)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1324365&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sziUnEVBuK7Mvojl_EhK6Y6pBh0WgzAMpRHdepUqB38"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1324365">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/01/07/nccih-research-nothing-much-there-behind-the-curtain%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 07 Jan 2016 07:50:32 +0000 oracknows 22213 at https://scienceblogs.com Acupuncture bait and switch: Electrified hot flash edition https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/26/acupuncture-bait-and-switch-hot-flash-edition <span>Acupuncture bait and switch: Electrified hot flash edition</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's always disappointing to see a good journal fall for bad medicine, particularly when it's in your field. For example, the <a href="http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/current">Journal of Clinical Oncology</a> (affectionately referred to by its abbreviation JCO) is the official journal of the <a href="http://www.asco.org">American Society of Clinical Oncology</a> (ASCO) and probably the most read clinical journal by those involved in the clinical care of cancer patients. Just as most oncologists, surgeons, and radiation oncologists who specialize in the care of cancer patients belong to ASCO, most of them also at least peruse JCO on a regular basis because major results of large cooperative group trials are often published there. Basically, everyone wants to publish his oncology clinical trial in JCO. Getting into <em>Clinical Cancer Research</em> is good, but getting in JCO is great.</p> <p>So when I see a study that some of you have been e-mailing and Tweeting at me in JCO, I can't help but wonder what the hell happened to peer review at the journal. I also realize that, being in the biz myself, by criticizing the peer review at JCO I might endanger my own chances of ever publishing in there given that my meatspace identity isn't exactly a particularly well-kept secret (nor is it meant to be anymore). Oh, well. It needs to be said. Earlier this week there appeared in the Early Release Articles a study by Jun J. Mao and colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania entitled <a href="http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/early/2015/08/21/JCO.2015.60.9412.full">Electroacupuncture Versus Gabapentin for Hot Flashes Among Breast Cancer Survivors: A Randomized Placebo-Controlled Trial</a>. Sounds neat, right? Sounds like a head-to-head battle between every acupuncturist's version of transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS), electroacupuncture (EA), versus gabapentin (a.k.a. Neurontin) in a battle royale to see which can alleviate hot flashes the best.</p> <!--more--><p>And make no mistake, hot flashes are an incredibly important problem in oncology, particularly for breast cancer patients. Patients who have breast cancer that is estrogen receptor positive, which means that the cells are responsive to estrogen, are frequently treated with drugs that block estrogen action. If a woman is postmenopausal, the usual drug used is a member of a class of drugs called aromatase inhibitors. If the woman is premenopausal, the usual drug used is Tamoxifen. In either situation, the most common—and frequently the most troubling—side effect of the drug is menopausal symptoms, mainly hot flashes. What a lot of people who aren't cancer doctors or patients don't understand is that these hot flashes can be horrible. Believe it or not, I learned this lesson with the very first patient I treated as an attending surgeon, lo these many years ago. This woman had such horrendous hot flashes from her Tamoxifen, as well as psychological symptoms, that she and her oncologist, after attempts at dose reductions and other strategies to ameliorate her symptoms, jointly decided that she couldn't take it any more. Unfortunately, for patients with hormone-responsive breast cancers, the most bang for the buck in terms of preventing recurrence comes from the hormonal therapy, at least equal to that of any chemotherapy. So the degradation of quality of life and sometimes even symptoms necessitating cessation of hormonal therapy are a major problem in oncology. Unfortunately, our existing treatments are not the greatest, which opens the door to woo such as acupuncture. Where there's woo, there's quackademic medicine to study the woo, and that's just what this study is.</p> <p>Basically, this study is a bait-and-switch. I realize that I just <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/20/an-acupuncture-bait-and-switch-on-hypertension/">discussed another bait-and-switch acupuncture study</a> less than a week ago, but sometimes a doc's gotta do what a doc's gotta do.</p> <p>So where's the bait and switch? In this case, it's on more levels than you think. In fact, before I dive into the story itself, let's look at the spin being put on the results. I like to call this how <a href="http://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/news/20150825/acupuncture-best-for-hot-flashes-in-breast-cancer-survivors-study">not to report on an acupuncture study</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Needles beat pills for treating hot flashes in breast cancer survivors, according to a new trial that compared acupuncture, "sham" acupuncture, the medication gabapentin and a placebo pill.</p> <p>Interestingly, sham acupuncture came in second place for effectiveness, the researchers said.</p> <p>Furthermore, the effects of acupuncture were "significant and enduring for hot flashes while gabapentin's effect only happened when a patient was taking the medication," said study first author Dr. Jun Mao, an associate professor of family medicine and community health at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.</p> <p>The study was published Aug. 24 in the <em>Journal of Clinical Oncology</em>. </p></blockquote> <p>As usual, the reporting that "acupuncture beat pills for hot flashes" is a completely inaccurate assessment of what the study actually showed. The study showed nothing of the sort. Barring an incredibly strong effect, it couldn't possibly have (more on that later). Sadly, dissecting the BS attached to acupuncture studies is a rather specialized skill set; so perhaps I'm being too harsh. There were others who fell for this. When this study was presented as an abstract at the San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium in December, <a href="http://www.pm360online.com/acupuncture-beats-gabapentin-for-hot-flashes-in-rct/">similar stories were written about it</a>. Of course, given the depth and breadth of science presented at the SABCS, it never ceases to amaze me how the press always seems to zero in on studies like this one, which tell us very little but give the appearance that acupuncture works.</p> <p>Acupuncture is, of course, a <a href="http://www.dcscience.net/Colquhoun-Novella-A&amp;A-2013.pdf">theatrical placebo</a>. Its effects are nonspecific, which is why it is such an adaptable placebo. As I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/20/an-acupuncture-bait-and-switch-on-hypertension/">joked sarcastically last time</a>, if you believe its practitioners and adherents, acupuncture can treat almost any disease or health problem to which human beings are prone, which is why last week I could be blogging about a bait and switch study of acupuncture to treat hypertension and this week I can be writing about a bait and switch study of acupuncture to treat hot flashes caused by hormonal treatment in breast cancer patients. That's why several years ago I was <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/24/yawn-yet-another-worthless-acupuncture-s/">writing about</a> <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/19/acupuncture-and-hot-flashes-in-breast-ca/">worthless acupuncture studies</a> examining acupuncture for hot flashes.</p> <p>This study, in fact, shares a major flaw with the one I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/10/07/hypnosis-and-hot-flashes-when-will-they/">blogged about in 2008</a>. Specifically, it has no control group that received no treatment at all. For a study that goes on and on about placebo effects and how acupuncture provides more of a placebo effect than pills, that's a rather glaring omission. So let's look at the study design. Basically it's a four arm study, two arms of which look at electroacupuncture (EA) versus acupuncture and the other two at gabapentin versus a placebo. Interestingly in this study compared to most electroacupuncture studies, the EA is considered the "real" acupuncture and the standard acupuncture (SA) is described as the "sham," which, I have to admit, is not inappropriate, given that acupuncture is a sham and electroacupuncture is basically transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation rebranded as the sham that is acupuncture. (We all know that those ancient Chinese must have had access to electricity, right?) It is funny, though, because the SA group did use retractable needles and really were sham acupuncture. Consequently, the investigators weren't really comparing EA versus the same acupuncture without the current but rather EA to at true sham.</p> <p>So basically, the groups were as follows: electroacupuncture (EA); standard acupuncture (SA), gabapentin (GP), and placebo pill (PP). There were 120 patients with stage I to III breast cancer treated for cure at the Abramson Cancer Center of the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia and with no evaluable disease (i.e., no detectable disease left after treatment) and at least two hot flashes per day for at least a month. They excluded patients with stage IV disease, active breast cancer treatment, initiation or change in hormonal adjuvant therapy within the past 4 weeks, plans to initiate or change hormonal treatment in the coming 14 weeks, pregnancy or breast feeding, bleeding disorders or use of warfarin/heparin, an allergy to or previous use of GP for hot flashes, current use of an anticonvulsant, or documented renal failure in the past 12 months. They were then randomly assigned to one of the four groups according to this schema (click to embiggen):</p> <p><a href="/files/insolence/files/2015/08/ProtocolEA.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2015/08/ProtocolEA-450x159.jpg" alt="Acupuncture Hot Flash Protocol" width="450" height="159" class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-9690" /></a></p> <p>In any case, the EA and SA groups received their "acupuncture" treatment for 30 minute sessions, twice a week for two weeks, then once a week for six more weeks. Meanwhile, in the GP versus PP groups, the GP group received 900 mg per day of gabapentin or placebo for eight weeks. Outcomes were measured once a week using the average hot flash composite score (HFCS) as measured by the Daily Hot Flash Diary, a commonly used instrument to measure hot flash severity and frequency. Adverse events were also monitored. Patient outcomes were followed for 24 weeks.</p> <p>Of course, in any acupuncture study, blinding is of critical importance; so whenever you see an acupuncture study, look at the blinding. In this case, monitors blinded to treatment group tallied adverse events (AEs). That's good. The patients were blinded to treatment group between EA and SA and between GP and PP, but were not blinded to whether they fell into one of the acupuncture groups or the medication groups. So was the principal investigators, study investigators, study staff, and the statistician. The acupuncturists, however, were not blinded to whether the patients received EA or SA, which is another huge flaw, almost as bad as the lack of a no treatment control group. In fact, it's bad that they didn't even blind patients between the acupuncture and pill groups. All that would have required would have been to give all the patients in the two acupuncture groups a placebo pill and all the patients receiving pills sham acupuncture and then blind the acupuncturists to experimental group by using a needle that retracts in such a way that the acupuncturist can't tell if it really went into the skin or not (such needles do exist) and then having every patient hooked up to the current generator, which could be set to light up and have its gauge show that it's producing current whether it actually is or not. That way, everyone can be blinded. Then add a wait list/no treatment control. But that's not what they did. I realize my way would be more difficult and expensive, but it is the only way likely to generate anything resembling useful data.</p> <p>Here's another aspect:</p> <blockquote><p> Because placebo response to a pill has been previously reported to be approximately 20%,20 assuming baseline HFCS had a mean of 16 with a standard deviation of 4, we needed 26 participants in each placebo group to detect a 20% difference (3.2 HFCS/day) with 80% power using a two-sided significance level of .05. Assuming a 15% dropout rate, we needed to recruit 30 subjects per arm, for a total of 120 subjects. Our trial was not designed to evaluate the efficacy of EA or GP because sample size requirements would be much larger on the basis of previous literature. Evaluations of the short- and long-term effects between EA and other groups were secondary aims. </p></blockquote> <p>In other words, this study shows nothing about whether EA is actually efficacious, because it wasn't designed to. It's too small. So right away, any results must be interpreted in light of this knowledge, which is why all the discussion of placebo effects. First, however, here is the singularly unimpressive result of the study in the form of a single graph:</p> <p><a href="/files/insolence/files/2015/08/HotFlashChange.jpg"><img src="/files/insolence/files/2015/08/HotFlashChange.jpg" alt="Results: Acupuncture versus hot flashes" width="600" height="541" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-9691" /></a></p> <p>First, notice that all groups appeared to be improving right up until the end of the eight week treatment phase and are bunched up. How the authors interpret this result is rather interesting:</p> <blockquote><p> By week 8 (end of the intervention), acupuncture produced a significantly greater placebo effect than did pills, with the SA group having a significantly lower HFCS than the PP group (−2.39; 95% CI, −4.60 to −0.17; P = .035). Compared with PP, EA also had improvement in hot flashes (−4.1; 95% CI, −7.0 to −1.3; P = .005), whereas GP showed nonsignificant improvement (−1.8; 95% CI, −3.9 to 0.2; P = .085). We observed differences among treatment groups in the HFCS score (P </p></blockquote> <p>So, in other words, everyone improved (which is usually what happens on clinical trials of symptoms with a large subjective component), and somehow the authors see this as evidence that "sham acupuncture" produces a stronger placebo effect than the placebo pills. They also state that the SA group had less nocebo effect (equated with AEs, which I don't consider appropriate given that some of the AEs included bruising In actuality, this might be true, but we really don't know if that's true. For one thing, there is no control group receiving no treatment. How do we know that a no treatment group wouldn't also show a roughly 20% decline in HFCS composite scores just due to the subjects being on a clinical trial? We don't. In fairness, the authors acknowledge this limitation. They also acknowledge that their study wasn't powered to detect efficacy, which puzzled me to no end. Why bother to do the study if it can't demonstrate efficacy? And why say things like this at the end:</p> <blockquote><p> In conclusion, acupuncture is associated with enhanced placebo effects and lower nocebo effects when compared with taking pills for hot flashes among survivors of breast cancer. Eight weeks of EA produced promising short- and long-term treatment outcomes for hot flashes compared with other comparators and had fewer adverse effects than GP. These preliminary findings need to be confirmed in larger studies with long-term follow-up. For survivors of breast cancer experiencing hot flashes, acupuncture could be preferable to GP because of sustained benefit after treatment and fewer adverse effects, whereas patients who dislike needles or do not have the time required for acupuncture treatments may prefer GP. </p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.webmd.com/breast-cancer/news/20150825/acupuncture-best-for-hot-flashes-in-breast-cancer-survivors-study?page=2">Here's why</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> The results with the sham acupuncture, which bested gabapentin, suggest that "there is more than a placebo effect with the sham acupuncture," said Dr. Gary Deng, interim chief of the integrative medicine service at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. "There is a component of behavior of doing a sham procedure, so it psychologically may trigger a different kind of reaction from patients versus taking the placebo pill."</p> <p>Deng pointed out that clinicians have come to realize that the placebo effect is very important in treatment. "In fact, in clinical practice, every doctor uses it all of the time," he said. "The so-called bedside manner or communication with patients -- all of these enhance the effect of the patients feeling they're getting something."</p> <p>No one is quite sure why placebos work for some people and not for others, said Deng. "It's like psychotherapy," he added. "Why does it work for some people and not others?" He suggested that differences in anatomy and genetics might be possible explanations, but said "there is a fertile field for further research." </p></blockquote> <p>Because the most rigorous studies of acupuncture (and other "complementary and alternative medicine" or "integrative medicine" therapies) are almost always negative and the totality of the literature on acupuncture is consistent with its being a "theatrical placebo," acupuncture advocates, like CAM advocates in general, are now selling it as the "power of placebo." Of course, we know that more invasive interventions produce a stronger placebo effect. For instance, injections tend to produce stronger placebo effects than pills and surgical interventions produce the strongest placebo effects of all. So it would not be surprising if as theatrical a procedure as acupuncture produced a stronger placebo effect than a pill. If you accept that what was measured were placebo effects (and I do not without a no treatment control), then all this study basically showed was that SA is a better placebo than a pill, a result we could already have surmised from the literature, meaning that there was really no need to do this study.</p> <p>In any event, I've never argued that placebo effects can't be important. However, there is an inherent problem with using them, and that's that you have to lie to the patient, attempts to demonstrate the existence of "placebo effects without deception" that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/23/more-dubious-statements-about-placebo-ef/">show nothing of the sort</a> notwithstanding. Worse, when a fantasy treatment based on a prescientific understanding of human physiology and disease <a href="https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chinese-medicine/">retconned by Chairman Mao</a> into a seemingly effective therapy is used as the placebo, the message is not so much that we could get the same effects using ethical means of increasing placebo effects, such as good bedside manner, encouraging words, and the like. It's that magic works through placebo effects, which is exactly how this study will be sold.</p> <p>In the end there are two bait and switches in this study: electroacupuncture sold as acupuncture and acupuncture sold as a powerful placebo that has clinical utility. Same as it ever was.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Wed, 08/26/2015 - 03:45</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/acupuncture" hreflang="en">acupuncture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/breast-cancer" hreflang="en">breast cancer</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/electroacupuncture" hreflang="en">electroacupuncture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gabapentin" hreflang="en">gabapentin</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hot-flashes" hreflang="en">hot flashes</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/menopause" hreflang="en">menopause</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/social-sciences" hreflang="en">Social Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313523" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440579638"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To my mind, major journals are complicit in this infiltration of quackery into medicine. To cite a recent set of examples, I am beginning to think that there is an effort at PLOS One to pass off acupuncture studies with minimal and inadequate reviews. Otherwise, I cannot find a reason why these studies, with so many glaring lacunae in methodology and interpretations, would find their way into a journal, such as PLOS One:</p> <p>1. <a href="http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/authors-of-plos-one-study-on-benefits-of-electro-acupuncture-answer-my-questions/">http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/authors-of-plos-one-study-on…</a></p> <p>2. <a href="http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/cam-peer-review-plos-problem/">http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/cam-peer-review-plos-problem/</a></p> <p>3. <a href="http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/plos-one-acupuncture-lacks-control/">http://www.scilogs.com/in_scientio_veritas/plos-one-acupuncture-lacks-c…</a></p> <p>I did complain rather loudly on Twitter, but I am yet to hear from the PLOS One folks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313523&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GNOJFprtgAVff70pcGBvpSd352CwA9peZ0y7BQ5qkZg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kausik Datta (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313523">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313524" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440581389"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Of additional potential concern is the underdosing of gabapentin in this study.<br /> In someone with normal kidney function, the target dose for gabapentin for this indication should be at least 900 mg three times daily. This study used one-third of that dose. If the patient were not having dose-limiting side effects or modified dosing requirements due to decreased kidney function, then that dosing scheme is inadequate.</p> <p>This is a bit of a side point. But it is a problem that also occurs in pharmaceutical trials as well. (Comparison of one drug to an inadequate dosing of the standard treatment.) </p> <p>My own practice is to prefer venlafaxine rather than gabapentin as the first choice pharmacologic treatment, all else being equal, due to some (limited) evidence that patient tolerability is higher. <a href="http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/28/35/5147.full">http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/28/35/5147.full</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313524&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uq0O0Vmvkg2hvq5r0AlNAEjD7ArsdDeUhPDDHF_BEw4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bruce Scott MD (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313524">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313525" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440581557"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am ashamed that such a great place, where I did two years of fellowship, is promoting such nonsense. At least they had the sense not to offer it to me when I was a patient there. They would have gotten an earful.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313525&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xSxwFLkv1OMJwLS7jeYy01BNQrwoZSGpXtj-Q8hn5KA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael Finfer, MD (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313525">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313526" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440581611"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>In the end there are two bait and switches in this study: electroacupuncture sold as acupuncture and acupuncture sold as a powerful placebo that has clinical utility. Same as it ever was.</i></p> <p>Amen.</p> <p><i>...are now selling it as the “power of placebo.”</i></p> <p>When the health industry starts selling placebo treatments to me is when I start paying them in placebo money. </p> <p>Yeah, I hope that 1 million dollar check I am going to write them makes them feel wonderful before it ceases to do anything for their bank account.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313526&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tu2tEaq3v0X6eQZDQaK5hMw-34slZURV3RHiI0URpG8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313526">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313527" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440581626"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Kausik Datta<br /> haha. funny i was just going to link your comment on SBM.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313527&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2EoqTtkkLA96aCJiLqVbOQeOXNcI-aQfwYQNCqDg6uQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jonnybdead (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313527">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313528" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440582037"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, is that live now? *toddles off to check*</p> <p>But seriously, for me, both Orac's and Dr. Novella's analyses have separate values. I love Orac's attention to the scientific details.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313528&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w4xD1KXxlZHz1lRxmV4lBIz5Rz-xiILBGimWynfQYQU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kausik Datta (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313528">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313529" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440582228"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Kausik Datta<br /> "Otherwise, I cannot find a reason why these studies, with so many glaring lacunae in methodology and interpretations, would find their way into a journal, such as PLOS One"<br /> These papers are reviewed by acupuncture experts. Peer review does not make science.<br /> But "hot" papers make high impact.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313529&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yZKYvXiyQMHI0VAPfovrjCMDyf1NVhVKBiHc9iek_pk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313529">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313530" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440582877"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Daniel,<br /> "These papers are reviewed by acupuncture experts. Peer review does not make science." </p> <p>True. To me, that points to a failure of the peer review system, because these reviewers seem to be reviewing acupuncture, and not the science. </p> <p>This hearkens to what Dr. Novella wrote in the SBM piece: [I quote] "It seems almost that these types of studies are designed not to ask if acupuncture works, but to show that it works..." [End quote]</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313530&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lwIhJQj3yrTb8a_oL-hzzlvArmW60XUmHULwiHsLo0Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kausik Datta (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313530">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313531" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440583423"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suppose the bottom line here is that gabapentin is a pretty crappy drug for treating hot flashes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313531&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oqlI3JKuKCS9HVpKNLly-sNHIDmpdchwlnmVZ80O53I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313531">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313532" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440585892"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Does the paper show the absolute values of HFCS (average, median or range) for each subgroup at time 0? Since a subjective measure like this cannot be linear, especially near the top and bottom boundaries, the subsequent deltas may not be comparable between subgroups.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313532&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kbu1kDe7T3jJjLwIoGpL826pdV6gmKekBCMg98kw0JQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rs (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313532">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313533" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440587011"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As a perimenopausal woman, I can vouch that hot flashes can be miserable. Mine have dropped off with time, (and HRT treatment), but for a while I was having 1 ever 1-2 hours. I can't imagine knowing I couldn't treat them - I went flying to the doctor for HRT after the first week of that frequency. I would have tried gabapentin if I'd known that was an option, as I had used it for restless leg syndrome, to see if it worked. But not acupuncture.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313533&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yE0okk2EJlgHeaZp411LWHK6OtnE0QlGXL49xgwCgt4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313533">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313534" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440589880"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>These papers are reviewed by acupuncture experts.</i></p> <p>This failure mode of peer review is not limited to acupuncture studies, or even medicine in general. It's a particular problem in medicine because medicine is such a large field that it's particularly easy to game the review system.</p> <p>Here's how it works. The authors will suggest potential reviewers, and the editor will (or should) draw other potential reviewers from (a) his knowledge of who's who in the field and (b) whose papers are cited in the manuscript. The bigger the field, the greater reliance the editor has to put in the latter option. It's too easy for an editor to fail to notice that the literature review in the manuscript is unbalanced (or worse, not care because he agrees with the authors' views), and select reviewers who are sympathetic to that view. Of course the authors' suggested reviewers are likely to be sympathetic as well, which is why only the most foolish or desperate editors will pick more than one reviewer from the list the authors provide.</p> <p>Also, reviewers can't be expert in everything. So maybe you get a reviewer who is expert on one specific aspect of the paper, and makes the authors improve that part, but overlook some other mistake that would be obvious to an expert in that aspect, but not to the reviewer. This happens routinely in my field, which is a good deal smaller than biomedical fields. I've read several papers in my field which left me thinking, "How the #$&amp;% did that get past the referees?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313534&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1fi7IgpsK-OinyBnaa9QOWDR_e950NX5n9xM3TcDf7g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313534">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313535" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440592205"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maybe I've forgotten too much of what I was taught about statistics over the last 30 years, but the graph labelled Fig.2 raises hackles. The error bars overlap in all measurements up to 12 weeks, but can then be read as fantastically singular at 24 weeks. What am I missing?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313535&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0g6GUTRA96K-ezbZOlUIW_O2C4YXDWmEsPGEqb0rIiM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313535">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313536" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440592397"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Eric Lund<br /> The problem is not related to the field. If one defines "excellence" in science by the number of peer reviewed papers with high short term impact (and two years is very short in science), one should not be surprised to see all this bullshit.<br /> Before giving positions in scientific institutions, it would be better to evaluate individuals on their basic knowledge in the domain and, if possible, their creativity.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313536&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a-_NQ582GXsY4xSVnt_btV4YSfnAF9Kb9lwUScKDdUE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313536">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313537" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440605115"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And Lo! I have invented a new treatment: Kitten-puncture.</p> <p>We know from studies like this one that acupuncture is a theatrical placebo, where someone listens to you, and cares about you, and then pokes you a little bit, and you feel better.</p> <p>Come to my (imaginary) clinic where you'll get a nice cold glass of tea, a big fluffy robe, and then you lie down on a nice soft table with soothing music, and I plop a pile of kittens on your back. It's a pleasant environment, you get stabbed slightly (kitten paws and claws are cleaned between patients) and then you go home.</p> <p>Now I just need a cat-allergy alternative.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313537&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FMgPEAypJAAh7n7qsd5mpsmcoqlayOL3hlzuDipdFPI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313537">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313538" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440605562"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>kitten paws and claws are cleaned between patients</p></blockquote> <p>I'd pay money to see how that's done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313538&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DvEoDBiocgZE0H5HIFnCbxCe_tSZQANaf8qFi6FGelE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313538">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313539" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440605746"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kittens are self-cleansing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313539&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SUc-vHZSy3kSwywt5kR6N4jUegVWD_DvC2bD3lPYQCk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313539">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313540" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440605784"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MO'B: Oh, that's easy! First you have them walk across a sticky pad, then dip their little feet in hand sanitizer. The trick is to keep them from licking the sanitizer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313540&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mlOKqNePd0sYeP2KCN0RJwGuNNiuUS0CyzmofH1W44U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313540">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313541" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440606738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>First you have them walk across a sticky pad, then dip their little feet in hand sanitizer.</p></blockquote> <p>JustaTech - I admit to fairly limited kitting (kitten sounds ungrammatical - see "Elderly Man River") experience. However, the kittings I've known would not willingly walk across a sticky pad nor dip their paws into the entirely inappropriate hand sanitizer (shouldn't it be paw sanitizer? And if so, would that be for male cats only?).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313541&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cu7Cp6wPlEQMmonEQ5-SGG8BjMRZPFnvkCe_uGFYWqw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313541">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313542" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440610823"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The advocates of CAM love to have it both ways: when criticized that their treatments are no better than placebo, they elevate the placebo to a sort of venerated status, as if it is equivalent to actual effective medical treatments. As has been said often, there is a placebo effect, but the placebo itself has no affect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313542&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="25ZhHrKrYMoIE7aHP1867dUimA1Z-L9g8NUn8xqZvw8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dr. Chim Richalds (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313542">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313543" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440614129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>If one defines “excellence” in science by the number of peer reviewed papers with high short term impact </i></p> <p>I'm aware that it is standard practice to rate journals that way, and I agree it is foolish to do so. I haven't heard of individuals being rated in this fashion, but that would be even more foolish. There is no reason why a good paper shouldn't continue to get citations 10, 20, or even 50 years after publication. There is, however, a reason not to evaluate potential hires on this basis: early-career scientists will not have been in the field long enough to have any ten-year-old papers to cite. And those are the people who are generally considered for assistant professor positions in the US, or the equivalent in other countries.</p> <p>The pressure for journals to boost their "impact factor" produces a fair amount of pathology. This article is a mild example. It may not mean what the authors think it means, but at least we have no reason to suspect that the described studies didn't happen more or less as described in the paper. Wakefield et al (1998, <i>Lancet</i>) was fraudulent, and there have been many other prominent cases. <i>Nature</i> and <i>Science</i>, which are derisively called "glamour mags" for a reason, are particularly susceptible because they specialize in "hot research" regardless of field; about two thirds of the papers retracted in the wake of the Jan-Hendrik Schön scandal were published in those two journals.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313543&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="el-0pkW78z_VMW_RCWbo9mYzbMFL_g6F1lNNap91IKg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313543">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313544" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440614634"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wouldn't be so sure that kittehs would always avoid sticky surfaces as one of my own willingly ambled across newly varnished- still wet- wood which necessitated a concerted effort on my part in removing said varnish before she licked it or she stuck to something somewhere.</p> <p>AND my Very Large Cat is quite adept at inserting his own puncturing implements into skin although he knows nothing about meridians.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313544&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s0G0-3NFjZp_Cs3dPPsAtsaNqGL0hBoT99kfxL-VlYY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313544">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313545" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440616306"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm 50-ish years old, and take gabapentin for neuropathic pain (an approved use) - and I still get hot flashes. Interestingly, I didn't know the drug is used this way, though off-label. I suspect that since the drug makes a person feel drowsy, that the women who are awoken at night time due to hot flashes, find it easier to sleep through them.<br /> This still doesn't explain why the placebo pills have such a marked effect on patients reporting fewer hot flashes (or less severe ones).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313545&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_1DL3LXyy4odruyltH3G3hQa26-QqJOnvUtQauPLwc8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Renee (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313545">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440630687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Eric Lund<br /> The whole process of evaluating science by productivity is insane. And this is why I like quackademics: it's a very good illustration of this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9xUwIjMgGueLEFobQtw4hP4ZiLTtfo37t1cZj-FaKJM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440634169"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To Eric "I’m aware that it is standard practice to rate journals that way, and I agree it is foolish to do so."<br /> A two year impact factor was important for librarians in order to know which journals they had to buy. It makes sense. The H index is frequently used by "scientists" to evaluate others. This is stupid and dangerous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ll2F_hF4JTDuelt8nWIrmuzpt4cPuAMBmGfFLA6_2p4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440644759"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have a question aboput the following statement:<br /> "the EA is considered the “real” acupuncture and the standard acupuncture (SA) is described as the “sham,” </p> <p>I don't have access to the paper, but I had a quick look at the protocol (which was available online), and they mention Streitberger needles. To my extent of knowledge, these are supposed to be fake needles that never pierce the skin, but only create the illusion of doing so by hiding in a sheath. Can anyone with access to the paper clarify what type of needles were actually used? </p> <p>Thanks!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QB67GqBBpINm7zA4DD8SszbjZ6rWbk6sOVvMFtKZ5_8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Karolina (not verified)</span> on 26 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440702973"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It doesn't matter how robust the evidence is patients are just people that are affraid of pain, loss, death or debilitating illness they are not rational by any means but they are our core buisness. banging this drum is pointless.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jC_yUlEVNjGEKefR6Mt8iSOmuChHRVjaQfG8sfNXMCY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Riard Fitzgerald (not verified)</span> on 27 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440745770"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac,<br /> Would a concisely couched letter to the editor of JCO not achieve your purpose?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VRmYJMdhU0xCUHcbfevNiBprv-WlafNUKUlD9o6wdAg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dingo199 (not verified)</span> on 28 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440754575"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ORAC~<br /> A well placed review of a flawed study.<br /> Ii's unnecessary to refer to Jun J. Mao as "Chairman Mao" if even he is the chariman of a dept. or the supporting institution. Reserve sarcasm for you own acquaintances.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lQVFVXr62-eYWFHonc5t-5tbkZ1iwWslA3tvg2SHLLc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bill Carson, MD (not verified)</span> on 28 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440754695"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I didn't refer to him as "Chairman Mao." I was referring to the <strong><em>real</em></strong> Chairman Mao, who ruled China for decades. Follow the link on his name. It explains all. In fact, it never even occurred to me that Dr. Mao shared Chairman Mao's name, although now in retrospect it's pretty funny to me and I wish I had thought of riffing on Dr. Mao's name in this post.</p> <p>As for sarcasm, even though there was no sarcasm about Dr. Mao in my post (again, I was referring to the real Chairman Mao from history), I will be sarcastic when and where I damned well feel like it on this blog. If you don't realize that, you obviously haven't been reading very long. I have no intention of changing that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="E4e_1uN661I6pA8KgJNLHxLvYwSnCyUCLBrV22gyKWk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 28 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1313551#comment-1313551" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bill Carson, MD (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440899214"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not A Troll @ 4: Ouch!, That almost cost me a new keyboard;-) Someone ought to try it as a defence against passing bad cheques. 'That wasn't a bad cheque, it was an acupuncture cheque! An homeopathic cheque if you will, a very good cheque with prosperous financial energy and a most righteous and honourable history!!'</p> <p>JustATech@ 15: 'Kitten-puncture:' also has the relaxing benefits of a good massage. To get the little moggies to walk across the sticky pad, just place windup mice on the other side of it. A sanitiser gel made from ethanol wouldn't be quite so acutely toxic as one made from methanol, so you'd have time to intervene if they started licking their paws. Just don't make any claims about 'the healing energy of soft fluffy kitties' and we'll recommend you to our friends.</p> <p>Seriously though, why didn't the nefarious study in question use a TENS arm as a control against EA? Someone needs to do this one: EA, TENS, and a no treatment arm. Thereby demonstrating that any claimed effect of EA is indistinguishable from that of TENS, and removing the magic from the medicine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UtcSG7IIDgOzFOVg2xAZTBsAkdAZJXNI2PeC5nbvSTQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lurker (not verified)</span> on 29 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440919795"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Lurker<br /> If you remove the magic, then you lose the impact. This paper has been published because of the magic. This blog is popular because of the magic. Orac has published in a high impact factor journal about magic, could he do this with serious issues?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o2nTzfyVMl_nu110s8QdsybZLw82WuAXYrOGYD4ODVU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Corcos (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440926081"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Riard Fitzgerald:</p> <p>As distinct, I suppose, from you and your friends and acquaintances, who are not at all afraid of pain, loss, death, or debilitating illness? Brave, brave sir Riard.</p> <p>Most people are afraid of at least some of these things. Some people who aren't actually afraid of pain know that it interferes with most other things, including clear thinking and ability to get things done, even relatively simple things like laundry. I have a relative who tried acupuncture for pain, in the hope that it would let her focus better and/or reduce her doses of narcotics, acetominophen, and NSAIDs. (The acupuncture significantly increased her pain levels, as well as being a waste of money and her limited time and energy.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wyTBoS6XqcX5An2ziZvrwTlmqCI7xSp-zLRivPj4-Fo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440931812"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Come to my (imaginary) clinic where you’ll get a nice cold glass of tea, a big fluffy robe, and then you lie down on a nice soft table with soothing music, and I plop a pile of kittens on your back</i></p> <p>This would be as effective as acupuncture is. Heck, it would probably work better than acupuncture for a lot of people.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mQ6b-rG01OQT0o5bIhduMBl0jfuMo6VD7KQPxJf-wtQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1440940447"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> Seriously though, why didn’t the nefarious study in question use a TENS arm as a control against EA? Someone needs to do this one: EA, TENS, and a no treatment arm. Thereby demonstrating that any claimed effect of EA is indistinguishable from that of TENS, and removing the magic from the medicine. </p></blockquote> <p>I briefly looked around for just such a thing, and didn't find much. </p> <p>I rather suspect that the EA fanbois don't want to know what we suspect it will show (that is, no difference between EA and TENS), and everyone else suspects it would be a waste of time and money, with little chance of publication.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="J3z8I1eLYkCLA8H44nb9mjGoy63Mm8mie-8XfuYxRLk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 30 Aug 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1313558" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1441485046"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In 2015, you will find that Acupuncture is both an art and science.</p> <p>You all are playing around with incomplete concepts and remedies. PLUS you are behind the science. Unfortunately most are behind the science even the schools of Acupuncture.</p> <p>The art is --- well profoundly well balanced within that time in history, the culture and the real-life observations.</p> <p>The science is in the book of C. Chan Gunn, MD and an old study done by Cannon Law of denervation.</p> <p>Gunn lays out the perfect 1 to 1 cause and effect reality based problem + solution = resolution. Muscle pain + the needle as the remedy = resolution of the pain.</p> <p>If you want more evidence you can study Gunn works. Then you can blend his work into that of Travell, Simons, Rachlin, Hackett et al for the complete 360 view of what is not very observable in the bits and pieces of RCT research.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1313558&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Em0J06oysLlWN1p8oNY0KDtqiaKqBp5sKbTcdsOEsr8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Stephen S. Rodrigues, MD">Stephen S. Rod… (not verified)</span> on 05 Sep 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1313558">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2015/08/26/acupuncture-bait-and-switch-hot-flash-edition%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 26 Aug 2015 07:45:25 +0000 oracknows 22123 at https://scienceblogs.com Psychological correlates of the placebo that is acupuncture https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/17/psychological-correlates-of-the-placebo-that-is-acupuncture <span>Psychological correlates of the placebo that is acupuncture</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><div align="center"> <img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/wp-content/blogs.dir/445/files/2012/04/i-5ff3dca81055777181a2a71409ba5943-Self-acupuncture.jpg" alt="i-5ff3dca81055777181a2a71409ba5943-Self-acupuncture.jpg" /></div> <p>If there's one thing that's become clear to me over the years about acupuncture, it's that it's nothing more than a <a href="http://www.dcscience.net/2013/05/30/acupuncture-is-a-theatrical-placebo-the-end-of-a-myth/">theatrical placebo</a>. Many are the times that I've asked: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/29/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture/">Can we finally just say that acupuncture is nothing more than an elaborate placebo?</a> Most recently, I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/09/12/can-we-finally-just-say-that-acupuncture-is-nothing-more-than-an-elaborate-placebo-can-we-2012-edition/">asked this question in 2012</a>. What science-based medicine answers is yes. However, there's a large contingent of physicians under the sway of practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) who have fallen under the spell of that theatrical placebo, leading to a whole subdiscipline of quackademic medicine in which tooth fairy science is used to try to convince people that acupuncture actually works, even if they <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/06/01/when-what-an-acupuncture-study-shows-is/">involve misinterpreting adenosine signaling</a> or rebranding regional anesthesia as a form of acupuncture they dubbed <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/05/21/papuncture-on-the-rebranding/">PAPupuncture</a>.</p> <p>While I grudgingly admire the imaginative creativity of some of the attempts to torture acupuncture into seeming scientific, I also take note of studies that go against the seeming flow of propaganda designed to convince you that acupuncture has real, specific effects. Remember, it wasn't so long ago that I considered acupuncture, of all alternative medical treatments, as the one that might actually have something to it. The reason, at the time at least, was that acupuncture actually involved sticking needles into people. Perhaps there was some sort of physiological effect. Then I actually started paying close attention to the acupuncture literature. There, I learned that it doesn't matter where you stick the needles, thus invalidating any concepts of acupuncture meridians. Nor does it even matter if you stick the needles in at all; twirling toothpicks against the skin <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/13/another-acupuncture-study-misinterpreted/">produces a similar effect</a>. Basically, when compared to usual care or wait list controls, patients treated with acupuncture report improvement in pain and other subjective measures. However, when a rigorous sham acupuncture control is included in such studies, the apparent differences between acupuncture and control disappear. Acupuncture effects are virtually all nonspecific placebo effects.</p> <!--more--><p>With that in way of background, I just saw another study that sheds light on acupuncture effects by way of story in Medical News Today story entitled <a href="http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/289476.php">Acupuncture back pain success determined by psychological factors</a>. It's a story about study by George T. Lewith's group at the University of Southhampton. He's bit of a controversial figure, as no doubt David Colquhoun <a href="http://www.dcscience.net/2011/02/18/george-lewiths-private-practice-another-case-study/">could tell you</a>, given that he apparently still prescribes homeopathy even though he's published studies showing that it isn't effective. Be that as it may, this study is called <a href="http://journals.lww.com/clinicalpain/Fulltext/2015/03000/Psychological_Covariates_of_Longitudinal_Changes.9.aspx">Psychological Covariates of Longitudinal Changes in Back-related Disability in Patients Undergoing Acupuncture</a>.</p> <p>Basically, it's longitudinal study using a questionnaire mailed to patients undergoing acupuncture for chronic back pain. Data were collected at baseline (pretreatment), 2 weeks and then at three and six months on a total of 485 patients from 83 different acupuncturists. The questionnaires were designed to measure variables from four theories (fear-avoidance model, common-sense model, expectancy theory, social-cognitive theory). In addition, clinical and sociodemographic characteristics, and disability were surveyed. The primary outcome was back pain-related disability. This was assessed using the 24-item Roland Morris Disability Questionnaire (RMDQ), which asks patients to think about “today” and to indicate whether their back pain interferes with 24 activities. An example: "I stay at home most of the time because of my back." High scores indicate greater back-related disability. At the same time, a variety of psychosocial scales were also examined to try to hone in on what psychological factors most contribute to the patient-perceived efficacy of acupuncture.</p> <p>You can tell that Lewith is a believer by the introduction to the study:, </p> <blockquote><p> Personally, economically, and socially, back pain is costly. Acupuncture is recommended by UK clinical guidelines for low back pain (LBP) and is commonly used for LBP. In randomized clinical trials acupuncture has shown large effects on chronic pain compared with usual care or waiting list controls but often only small effects compared with sham acupuncture. This suggests acupuncture has large nonspecific effects, that is, factors other than needling characteristics contribute to patients’ outcomes. Indeed, acupuncture can be conceptualized as a complex intervention in which changes in patients’ health are produced not only by needling but also by more psychosocial factors such as empathic therapeutic relationships and holistic consultations in which discussions of lifestyle and self-care can trigger changes in how patients think and feel about their symptoms and their ability to manage them. However, little is known about the psychosocial factors and processes that might be involved in acupuncture for LBP: established psychological models have not been applied to understand acupuncture’s effects. Although variables from such models may not be explicitly addressed by acupuncturists, this does not mean they are not involved in patients’ ongoing LBP in this treatment context. Therefore, a comprehensive and theoretically informed investigation of psychological covariates of acupuncture’s effects on LBP was designed, drawing on major theoretical frameworks that have predicted LBP outcomes in patients undergoing other interventions: the fear-avoidance model (FAM), common-sense model (CSM), expectancy theory, and social-cognitive theory (SCT). </p></blockquote> <p>It is rather interesting to me that UK clinical guidelines for LBP would include the use of a placebo. One wonders why, if acupuncture is viewed as an acceptable clinical option for LBP in the UK, UK medical authorities don't also allow doctors to prescribe placebo sugar pills. It's basically the same thing. Of course, homeopathy is still common in the UK, albeit not recommended, and that's a placebo, too. Be that as it may, it's interesting that Lewith admits to conceptualizing acupuncture as an interaction in which it's not "just" the needling that causes supposed therapeutic effects but also the empathetic therapeutic relationship and the "holistic" consultation. In fact, reading the introduction, I could tell that this would be almost certainly what Lewith's group found, particularly given that a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/08/19/another-worthless-acupuncture-study-misi/">more rigorously designed study</a> from a few years ago found that an empathetic acupuncturist expressing high expectations for the treatment would do better; i.e., that patient expectation and practitioner attitude influence the placebo effect caused by the whole theatrical placebo that is acupuncture.</p> <p>So what were the findings? Within individuals (individuals compared to themselves), reductions in back-related disability compared to the individual's mean were associated with reductions in fear-avoidance beliefs about physical activity, consequences, concerns, emotions, and pain identity. Similarly, within person reductions in disability were associated with increases in personal control, comprehension, and self-sufficiency for coping. It was also noted that people who were less disabled had more positive outcome expectancies. In other words, they expected to get better.</p> <p>These results are, of course, completely consistent with acupuncture being a theatrical placebo. Unfortunately, instead of making the most obvious conclusion (that acupuncture is a placebo and that these various psychological constructs modulate placebo effects), the authors just can't let acupuncture go. As lead author of the study, Felicity Bishop, said in an <a href="http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/289476.php">interview</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> People who started out with very low expectations of acupuncture - who thought it probably would not help them - were more likely to report less benefit as treatment went on. </p></blockquote> <p>Which is, of course, an unremarkable observation that is usually true for any treatment with a large placebo component. In the paper itself, Bishop et al write:</p> <blockquote><p> The findings also have implications for understanding acupuncture’s large nonspecific effects and, more generally, for understanding the processes whereby acupuncture may result in decreased disability. Given that similar variables predict disability in other settings, patients’ perceptions of pain and self-efficacy could be influencing disability outcomes in patients receiving both real and sham acupuncture in clinical trials. These psychological variables offer one means by which major components of acupuncture as a complex intervention, such as ritual, the therapeutic relationship, and lifestyle advice, could trigger positive clinical outcomes. In the context of a warm relationship and therapeutic ritual, providing positive self-help advice encouraging physical activity could help patients to develop more positive illness perceptions, confront their fear of activities and become more active, breaking the negative cycle proposed in the fear-avoidance model and triggering a more positive perception of back pain as controllable and enabling an increasing sense of self-efficacy for coping. According to social-cognitive theory, enhanced self-efficacy for coping could then trigger a positive feedback loop increasing actual coping ability and reducing disability. </p></blockquote> <p>And at the very end:</p> <blockquote><p> Acupuncture patients experience less back-related disability when they are less afraid and avoidant of physical activity and work, perceive fewer symptoms emotions and consequences of LBP, perceive their LBP as less threatening, and when they feel greater control over, understanding of, and ability to cope with their back pain. Future studies should test whether integrating acupuncture and psychological interventions targeting these constructs can enhance patient outcomes. </p></blockquote> <p>Of course, the science-based view would be to ask this: Why is acupuncture even needed at all in this model? All of these observations could be used to use placebo mechanisms to accentuate the perceived benefits of science- and evidence-based treatments. Given that rigorous studies of acupuncture for low back pain routinely fail to find a difference between the acupuncture group and a well-designed sham control while finding significant differences between both sham control and acupuncture groups versus usual treatment or wait list controls, the results of this study can best be viewed as what psychological factors modulate placebo effects, and, to be honest, not a very rigorous study given that there is no control group, waitlist or sham, and the data were all collected using various questionnaires designed to assess back-related disability and various model measures.</p> <p>I have an idea. Placebo effects are definitely a worthy area of study, even though in the world of "complementary and alternative medicine" (CAM), or, as it's becoming more commonly called, "integrative medicine" (really the integration of pseudoscience with science-based medicine) they are often endowed with downright <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/03/21/the-myth-of-placebo-effects/">magical</a>, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/08/20/deepak-chopra-placebo-effects-and-the-secret/">mystical</a>, and even <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/03/placebo-effects-are-proof-that-god-exists/">religious</a> properties that far outstrip the magnitude and utility that placebo effects are, in fact, likely to have. The problem with CAM practitioners is that, rather than seeking ways by which placebo effects might enhance the patient-perceived effectiveness of actual medical interventions that have been shown to work, they just can't give up their ineffective modalities like acupuncture despite all the evidence showing they don't work.</p> <p>Quackademic medicine marches on.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Mon, 02/16/2015 - 21:02</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/acupuncture" hreflang="en">acupuncture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trial" hreflang="en">clinical trial</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackademic-medicine" hreflang="en">quackademic medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285782" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424140412"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>acupuncture being a theatrical placebo</i></p> <p>I find myself imagining "PLACEBO: the musical".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285782&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BvZppnhpc6GHviyEe7TUJWLNqH4BieAxd8JJoTF7e34"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285782">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285783" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424157028"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Next up: Study of sham acupuncture modality using nothing more than light fingertip pressure on the lower back region. Results: Confirmation of therapeutic effect of laying-on hands!</p> <p>Serious question: Has anyone investigated the effects of placebo alcohol? I'm thinking of the frequent horror stories of college kids ending up in the ER with alcohol overdoses due to binge drinking. </p> <p>If college kids were first exposed to placebo alcohol beverages (water, flavorings, and some kind of hot pepper to simulate the "hot" or "burning" sensation of drinking distilled beverages), and then "had a good time," perhaps they could be persuaded that drinking actual alcohol isn't necessary to "have a good time"?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285783&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7nTDBY--ZBqnEviQEk4SkXl3F31jiBpRFaOx5P23s2k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285783">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285784" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424157453"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I find myself imagining “PLACEBO: the musical”.</p></blockquote> <p>Followed by "PLACEBO II: This Time It's Personal!"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285784&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YvKzY282xf9Z-f8lOin2z_gu85E3Bv4TBMRCdFTT6wI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285784">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285785" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424157793"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Gray Squirrel</p> <blockquote><p>Has anyone investigated the effects of placebo alcohol?</p></blockquote> <p>One episode of the Big Bang Theory played with the idea (the one with Summer Glau as herself).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285785&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IbWl-dSlQCaY3tx1OSVls4mgAHs0bst8Y0AiAtHgFoE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285785">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285786" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424159205"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gray Squirrel @2: We used to have something like that in the US. When my mother was a college student, you had to be at least 21 to buy most alcoholic beverages, but if you were 18-20 you could buy something called 3.2 beer. It wasn't exactly a placebo (the "3.2" refers to the percent alcohol by volume), but you would have had to drink quite a lot of it to get drunk. 3.2 beer mostly disappeared when the US drinking age was lowered to 18, and didn't come back when the drinking age was returned to 21.</p> <p>My European colleagues are universally of the opinion that prohibiting all alcohol sales to people under 21, as is the law in the US, is a bad idea. It gives alcohol the lure of the forbidden, and it drives consumption underground, where people get hurt in such binge drinking episodes. Most European countries will sell alcohol to people under 21 (it may be beer/wine at a certain age and distilled liquor at a later age), and many of them don't have problems with binge drinking. (The UK does, but that is related to their rather strict rules about closing time.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285786&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eocg6ia5w-DMZIKKwZQlrGJ8HN4BU8TsPq1J7hBZp6A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285786">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285787" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424162515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>All of these observations could be used to use placebo mechanisms to accentuate the perceived benefits of science- and evidence-based treatments.</p></blockquote> <p>What are the chances we could convince people that they have a critical acupuncture meridian in one of their deltoids that needs to be needled exactly once every October?</p> <p>Also, I would like to see a very honest and well executed study called “how to get the most placebo bang for your buck.” Pit the titans against one another: Reiki, acupuncture, sugar pills, really exotic sounding herbs, magnets, bigger magnets, and homeopathic noises. May the best sham win.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285787&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HzGalfPpmjrfBOWXxSwAEFoA7ABJwmFHsx6TCCN89wg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CTGeneGuy (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285787">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285788" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424162645"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I meant homeopathic *nosodes*<br /> But what the heck, make some homeopathic noises, too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285788&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A3ABq8CJHN8e9aD_ij1QY-cAMs3vjEyv1wbHSbBPliY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CTGeneGuy (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285788">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285789" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424168180"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac said,<br /> "Why is acupuncture even needed at all in this model?"</p> <p>Indeed. Why is it needed at all, ever?</p> <p>Peering thru the mists of time, I recall my physio prof and fellow students speculating about this with ideas that ranged from the purely physiological to the entirely psychological-<br /> the needling interfered with the pain signal, the action liberated endogenous opiates, the expectation of relief led to physiological response that quelled the pain, interaction with a perceived reliever of pain ( person) led to physio response, acupuncture distracts a person from pain, etc.</p> <p>Right now, I wonder about how locus of control affects perception: if the subject habitually assigns causation to external sources will he or she be more likely to experience an effect?</p> <p>Interestingly, the authors mention social cognition in respect to self-efficacy ( as well as the idea of controllability itself) which leads me to ask: if they are truly concerned with actions originating in themselves, why would they not go straight to the toothpicks or home acupuncture kit in the first place?</p> <p>I can imagine a self-initiated system of pain relief that totally excludes the acupuncturist. ( -btw- don't people buy TENS units and similar devices for at-home usage?)</p> <p>Woo and external locus of control go together like supplements and salemen.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285789&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hWP7LuVfRP_DPJ0XPUVCWPSolKpJpAqzSsUIkmW2SyA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285789">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285790" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424168609"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CTGeneGuy: There is a famous example of homeopathic noise due to <a href="www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTEFKFiXSx4">John Cage</a>, who was something of a bad boy in the classical music world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285790&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rzOARh6nIuminO2HlybXL8M58DGup49Km9R39hbDVG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285790">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285791" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424170209"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ah yes, John Cage. I suppose the "control group" could sit quietly at a piano for 4'33"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285791&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3sxfowcFMMoMkXTVA9sJUU3yNu3hgG8-FZS3mrqzKHE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CTGeneGuy (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285791">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285792" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174245"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ CTGeneGuy:</p> <p>The control group couldn't sit quietly at a piano for 4'33" because that's exactly what the E group ( Cage) was doing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285792&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2f87nOR_KgjjlPeNCHp5c4eE2KNwtZWZDo0ztFsY1Bk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285792">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285793" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174663"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>While I certainly agree with all the comments about the placebo effect. I also wonder if any of you have tried acupuncture?<br /> Personally, it worked very well for me for anxiety. After a treatment I would literally "float" out of the office. I only did it for several weeks until I was back on my feet again an able to exercise, but it certainly helped. And, I certainly would not recommend it for most of the "wo" stuff they try and sell it for. And, while I didn't try it, I am fairly sure that twirling toothpics on my back would not of had the same effect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285793&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zhKCRxhxnIe3aoro7R48I8akPTLU9KkgHcI8f1-CIaU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sandman2 (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285793">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285794" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424175251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>acupuncture distracts a person from pain, etc.<br /></p><blockquote> <p>I suspect this is the mechanism, such as it is. Thing is, I can think of much more interesting, fun, pleasurable, and effective ways of being distracted than being stuck with needles. (I do, though, actually enjoy the process of being tattooed, but that wouldn't really qualify as "distraction from pain," I don't think, since it <i>causes</i> quite a bit of pain.)</p></blockquote> </blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285794&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gh7jKWyzlX1VAEzzpoxEfp3IIKBgQpFE6zLC-H7K8A8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285794">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285795" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424179165"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The opening gambit is a bit strong.<br /> "Acupuncture is recommended by UK clinical guidelines for low back pain (LBP) and is commonly used for LBP. "</p> <p>NICE actually States:<br /> "The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) only recommends considering acupuncture as a treatment option for chronic lower back pain, chronic tension-type headaches and migraine."</p> <p><a href="http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Acupuncture/Pages/Evidence.aspx">http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Acupuncture/Pages/Evidence.aspx</a></p> <p>My layman's understanding is that NICE is the body that decides whether a treatment is cost effective (simplification). So my take on the NICE position is "Jury is out but, the NHS won't pay but go take a look yourself if it floats your boat."</p> <p>I know there are other UK folk better qualified than me to clarify or correct this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285795&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0dTxqL6DxhAj6_hr1Nx6WImZsMETsoInpXINc3Y1BAk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Phlebas (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285795">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285796" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424179720"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Orac,</p> <p>Perhaps you can elaborate on your reasoning.</p> <p>It appears that there is a substantial number of people who are helped by acupuncture, clearly because they have a prior belief that it works.</p> <p>The secondary psychological factors, as you say, are common to all placebo modalities (and logically, to 'non-placebo' interventions in some individuals.)</p> <p>As I understand LBP, most of it resolves by itself, and much of the disability is in fact psychologically based.</p> <p>But what exactly is the plan by which one might 'eliminate' acupuncture? Replace it with a different theatrical placebo? If you have a patient who believes it works, what would you do-- first put them through some kind of deprogramming, and then convince them that "nothing" works just as well if only they will 'believe'? </p> <p>You do realize that these things persist *because* they are effective at getting people to believe in them?-- they are well designed 'woo' if you like. And you do realize that different folks like different strokes and all that-- or is there only one form of psychological intervention for mental ills that has your approval as well?</p> <p>The point being, if you have medical supervision so the needles are clean, why deny people an effective placebo effect? Why deny them access to the psychological support of well-trained practitioners?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285796&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TIHL_P5sK9Yfi2xXZbEiJqTIwGNaoIZldBmJ_tDd_lM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285796">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285797" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424180350"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I really wish we could study the mechanism of placebo with the idea of using it therapeutically. The problem with it is the ethics.</p> <p>I used to work in a prison; the jail doctor regularly ordered "Cebocet" for inmates with histories of drug seeking. They all swore it worked far better than Vicodin, Percocet or Darvocet. They would ask for it specifically when booked back to jail on a later charge.</p> <p>It was a sugar pill.</p> <p>I was inexperienced at the time and didn't see the ethical issue. I do see it now. And that's the problem I have with CAM "medicine" since it all seems to be placebo how can we ethically appy this to patients and tell them it works when we know it doesn't?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285797&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="57nBbgNwIS_BwYYVhap0JAEA9Tu1VDZZxRXnoMmhuxw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285797">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285798" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424180408"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@CTgeneGuy #6:</p> <blockquote><p>Also, I would like to see a very honest and well executed study called “how to get the most placebo bang for your buck.”</p></blockquote> <p>I think that's an excellent idea. If I ever need to ask my GP for treatment for LBP and he gives me a choice which includes acupuncture and chiropractic (yes, chiropractic -- I checked the <a href="http://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg88/chapter/key-priorities-for-implementation">NICE guidelines</a>), I'm going to reject those options and insist on something with a far, far greater placebo effect: Satanic ritual.</p> <p>Surely Satanic ritual will be better for me than acupuncture. After all, how could I not be influenced by the sight of a coven of hooded Satanists, circling the altar stone, chanting to Lucifer and sacrificing two black cockerels in a plea for the Fallen Angel to relieve my back pain? I'd say that it would be particularly effective in the case of this Christopher Lee horror film fan. Plus there'd be fried chicken afterwards.</p> <p>I hope I can get Satanic rituals on the NHS. I don't think I could afford to go private.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285798&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-HCLfN0E2GVQESmd1QcXhQ6umIJAFWOmdk0RNJaSEc8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285798">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285799" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424181204"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>why deny people an effective placebo effect</i></p> <p>The reason it''s called a placebo effect is because the treatment isn't really doing anything, other than to trick your mind into thinking that you are being treated. It's generally not ethical to do that in cases where an effective and safe treatment is known to exist. Placebos are legitimately used as controls in trials where the question is whether a prospective treatment method is effective: it has to do better than the placebo, or it gets discarded as a treatment method.</p> <p>There is a gray area in cases where no safe and effective treatment is known to exist. There, it's palliative care. For instance, I know somebody who tried acupuncture, successfully, in order to avoid a risky (at the time) surgery (and it was also not clear at the time, as Orac notes in the OP, that acupuncture was not an effective treatment). But an honest and ethical doctor would not resort to such methods when a better alternative exists. I doubt that choosing acupuncture, a defensible choice for that person's situation at the time, would be a reasonable choice today (though I don't know if the alternative surgery is less risky today than it was at the time).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285799&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0G5bClKS48ILdnN6VIF7o1G5BT20CiBVzv0tNGvTEmw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285799">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285800" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424181256"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rich -- I'd settle for lying in a hammock with Russell Crowe giving me a foot massage.</p> <p>(and Viggo Mortensen making me margaritas). Now that's a healthcare initiative I could support.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285800&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="foubFMQVkTY6Rld63L8_s3F5vyXHp-fr5TxK5sQ8ZjE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285800">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285801" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424181559"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>the “3.2” refers to the percent alcohol by volume</p></blockquote> <p>This is an odd case in which it's by weight rather than volume; that 4% ABV, or about the strength of ordinary bitter.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285801&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WoBSm7u7Rc3a2m_XCNAMtNUx2_5CoPwsZDa4Rpx3VJM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285801">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285802" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424182211"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I read that just before going to bed and apparently my brain worked on this all night...<br /> (apologies in advance, bad doggerel is my superpower)<br /> (to the tune of Oklahoma!)<br /> It's Placebo, where the cure is all inside your brain!<br /> Sugar pills are sweet, but they don't treat<br /> Bad infections, cancer or migraine!<br /> It's Placebo, all the needles poking at your skin.<br /> Though the studies tell it works just as well<br /> If they never put those needles in!<br /> Yes, we know we all work with a sham,<br /> But the sham that we work with is grand!<br /> So when we say<br /> Yeeow! Aye-yip-aye-yo-ee-ay!<br /> We're only saying you're doing fine with Placebo!<br /> Placebo, that's P L A C E B O, it's Placeeeebo!<br /> Yeeow!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285802&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3DF-j303YtL-VY_s5yFNMQ-kC8gbpiJcAikL_GeSvMc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285802">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285803" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424182355"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>What are the chances we could convince people that they have a critical acupuncture meridian in one of their deltoids that needs to be needled exactly once every October?</i></p> <p>Good thought. I'm fairly sure the anti-vaccination brigade slightly to my north are just fine and dandy with acupuncture...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285803&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Us7eFSiFIg9v3I28eYC2e0P_GhlRdBI3kwOPiGBunLo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Roadstergal (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285803">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285804" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183270"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Rich Woods:</p> <p>You might do better if you called it<br /> _Traditional Druidic Medicinal and Psychotherapeutic Folkways_</p> <p>I can see it now.<br /> White robes, incantations in Brythonic, blue body paint, mead and cheese afterwards.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285804&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="E_aFDVOJz93mnveEr21LrKwwQ7M073fV0UNhIiUGDIQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285804">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285805" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183431"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP:</p> <p>Lots of other better distractions is right.<br /> How about piercing instead of acupuncture? Endorphins for real.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285805&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_0dGdU18RIeQ5zaM3LpzvtYTL0qZU2J8YlroQ5XAAPs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285805">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285806" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183604"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>White robes</i><br /> Skyclad or nothing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285806&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9ncFiYQvgG_QO6JabivlyTrXbeNMZVMHzZ46H-_PQvM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285806">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285807" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183860"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wait a minute there, skyclad IS nothing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285807&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ETLnLvWCyHZhk4MNtxLjEgNlbwnX-ksX6HZ2y4PVUGU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285807">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285808" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424184055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hi, Orac. Placebos are very powerful, hence why they are still in use, I suppose. There is some interesting journalism in this (BBC Horizon) if you've got an hour spare (yeah, I know that isn't likely!): <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1moo91_horizon-2013-2014-8-the-power-of-the-placebo_lifestyle">http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1moo91_horizon-2013-2014-8-the-power-…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285808&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xc2kKueYn56Vg_DqgMR8NsnGV17lGb0ClkGZ2RebQUo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jeliwobble (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285808">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285809" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424184270"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Serious question: Has anyone investigated the effects of placebo alcohol? I’m thinking of the frequent horror stories of college kids ending up in the ER with alcohol overdoses due to binge drinking.</p> <p>If college kids were first exposed to placebo alcohol beverages (water, flavorings, and some kind of hot pepper to simulate the “hot” or “burning” sensation of drinking distilled beverages), and then “had a good time,” perhaps they could be persuaded that drinking actual alcohol isn’t necessary to “have a good time”?</p></blockquote> <p>There's been a fair bit of research on alcohol placebo. (a href="<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1403295">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1403295</a>"&gt;Here's a bit of it.) In terms of your strategy for curbing binge drinking - showing college kids that they don't have to drink alcohol to have a good time - <a>The Atlantic</a> had an article a couple years ago with a similar hypothesis. I can see how it might work to an extent.</p> <p>I'm ambivalent when it comes to ideas like lowering the drinking age. I really sort of feel like it ought to be 18, mainly because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that in the USA, you can vote, join the military, etc, between your 18th and 21st birthdays, but you can't buy a beer. (I suppose one could argue, actually, that we ought to raise the age of military eligibility <i>back</i> to 21.)</p> <p>OTOH, I understand that a drinking age of 21 has made the roads somewhat safer, preventing about 900 fatalities per year. </p> <p>Regarding the argument that a drinking age of 21 ends up causing more binge drinking: I'm not even sure that's the case. It <i>would</i> be safer if college kids were going out to bars to drink - as long as they didn't drive - since servers are legally obligated to stop serving them past obvious intoxication. The thing is, though, I think a lot of kids would just keep having house parties <i>anyway,</i> even if the drinking age were lowered - they're cheaper and more fun than going out, and the range of possibilities is much greater in a house than in your typical bar.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285809&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BvX5ZXy3TCQrQYAyzLTtOaGCNuTmH85Z3F_sm2XgNfo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285809">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285810" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424184572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>How about piercing instead of acupuncture? Endorphins for real.</p></blockquote> <p>Meh, piercing isn't really painful enough to really get the endorphins flowing, at least in my experience. I suppose one's milage might vary based upon, uh, the location of the piercing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285810&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pyfMtaS_iWiLKbM9_jUHVqfl79hQqHw29bg6MgPRZjY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285810">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285811" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424185691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Emma, if you add a second verse, it should include a reference to 3.2% beer, which Oklahoma still has.</p> <p>Rich, if you ever visit Oklahoma, they are soon to have a statue of Satan on the capitol lawn, due to a Ten Commandments statue and an equal representation lawsuit. Hope that helps with your pain.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285811&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kW_0z6Zj4X-tWZgLzoxiQUbSlXyl2SADBpIL-7sNwEg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CTGeneGuy (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285811">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285812" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424185894"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Meh, piercing isn’t really painful enough to really get the endorphins flowing, at least in my experience. I suppose one’s milage might vary based upon, uh, the location of the piercing.</i></p> <p>I got a Christine a short while ago (do not image search at work), and it was the only piercing I've gotten that caused me to, well, vocalize. I left the procedure room in the back of the parlor and saw a number of young (collegeish) girls looking at me a little wide-eyed, and I said to my husband, loudly, "Wow, that ear piercing hurt more than I expected!"</p> <p>Seriously, though, that's the only one that's hurt. And I'm in roaring good health, so hey, good enough evidence for the alt-med crowd.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285812&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i2Kxp76h-p1ixn2MAWmAUib-49KXPAlv0R_A3xHw6Ec"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Roadstergal (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285812">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285813" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424186960"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Wait a minute there, skyclad IS nothing.</i></p> <p>No, no, it's homeopathic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285813&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AISochQkPcDTaEBvqBSIFPKfBuujCFg4fy_P0c2oZus"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285813">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285814" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424187160"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#18 Eric</p> <p>I think the problem is using "effective" in different ways.</p> <p>"For instance, I know somebody who tried acupuncture, successfully, in order to avoid a risky (at the time) surgery (and it was also not clear at the time, as Orac notes in the OP, that acupuncture was not an effective treatment)"</p> <p>It apparently was effective, for your friend, right? How is "successful" different from "effective"?</p> <p>And it is doubtful that the surgery has now become so risk-free that it is less risky than medically supervised acupuncture.</p> <p>This just seems like treating a condition which is psychosomatic using a psychological method-- there's no need to show any physiological effect other than the perceived cessation of pain.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285814&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RUWPR99QTx2lnyks_1toGjm_GFgnJxTGzlzY7WjzUgE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285814">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285815" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424196261"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Sandman2</p> <p>Yes, I have tried acupuncture and I also experienced something I have referred to as “floating” or “high” which the Chinese MD-turned-acupuncutiest-because-he-found-out-how-lucrative-it-can-be-in-Portland-Oregon (apologies to Dr. Crislip) told me was a “side effect”. He put the needles in my earlobe for this and I’ve always thought it might have had some pysiological effect, but I remain skeptical. There are other explanations. I did this 30 years ago and never did it again. It did nothing for my tennis elbow, which is what I went for.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285815&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VUHyQD9dM2HbMZcf5-E3T4JVlZ1VVh3CarEDDr0l_Ng"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darwin’s lapdog (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285815">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285816" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424201208"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Placebos are very powerful, hence why they are still in use, I suppose.</p></blockquote> <p>Not at actually curing diseases, though, or alleviating symptoms that can be objectively measured. Ben Goldacre can point to amazing research showing that a stimulant given as a sleep medicine will make people sleepy (and vice versa). I have no doubt that this is true. I also have no doubt that giving something to someone to "ease pain" will improve their life, particularly if they've become sedentary in order to avoid pain. So the power of suggestion can help people feel better or worse. But powerful?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285816&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kvB0BRiKsP9R1w2Ku_9QnCXSDfjRHJE_OKrqM7nVxss"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285816">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285817" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424202194"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>How is “successful” different from “effective”?</p></blockquote> <p>I think it's called "actually treating the underlying condition."</p> <blockquote><p>This just seems like treating a condition which is psychosomatic using a psychological method– there’s no need to show any physiological effect other than the perceived cessation of pain.</p></blockquote> <p>Because surgery is offered for "psychosomatic" conditions? Check.</p> <p>Hey, maybe that would work for asthma.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285817&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tUnd92NSNDhY7CVRUnUihF1H6uTh9YHlQaCQv6N9V_E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285817">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285818" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424212155"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>An acquaintance of mine is a physical therapist, and he is trained in "dry needling". Researching dry needling leads me to suspect that the mechanism is roughly the same. The practice has been controversial in chiro and PT circles, apparently.</p> <p>Anyone have any insight on this?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285818&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fsuasbhjsJvLwE64Q9uqUcK-uSpE3LXjipOgt6BMt6c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">c0nc0rdance (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285818">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285819" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424236512"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#36 Narad,</p> <p>"Because surgery is offered for “psychosomatic” conditions?"</p> <p>1) Yes, surgery is offered for LBP, which can also be treated successfully, as described, by psychological intervention. </p> <p>2) Also, we know that not all surgery for LBP relieves symptoms, even though by your definition (there is physiological change) it is 'effective'-- therefore it is not 'successful'.</p> <p>3) Logically, some 'effective' surgery must be 'successful' due to placebo effect-- the physical outcome is the same as in (2) but the psychological outcome is the same as in (1).</p> <p>Narad, I think you should stick to doing elementary numerical calculations and stay away from the logic department.</p> <p>The point is that for LBP (not asthma or any other strawman) there is evidence that both things alleviate symptoms.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285819&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BS9YXtlV9yY9yWrtFv-gbQ1_f5Nxhr_pe80eXOP6Ne8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285819">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285820" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424237092"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Surgery can be one of the most powerful placeboes there are, actually.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285820&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VSUT2cB4aWxnavQjUAX_j5M4occLH6ILyHj6HoOrBWc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285820">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285821" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424242032"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#39 Orac,</p> <p>Much more theatrical than acupuncture!</p> <p>But the question remains-- what's the plan to replace the placebo effect of acupuncture for those patients who might benefit because they have a prior inclination to think it's effective?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285821&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nDGzucGl9FgDLEmQa9eHRnh4rx8-34Io07byS_lfRD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285821">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285822" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424249772"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>3.2 beer is actually still made in the US; in my state it has a considerable market thanks to our blue laws. Our age restriction is purely black-and-white -- before 21, you can't buy alcohol, after that you can -- but *where it is sold* varies. Off-sale alcohol sales are tightly controlled here. Until fairly recently, you could only get an off-sale license if you were a liquor store. No convenience stores, no gas stations, no grocery stores, no drugstores. If a grocery store wanted to sell wine, they had to set up a completely separate shop (possibly attached, though you cannot access it from inside the grocery store -- the closest you can get it is to have them share a vestibule) and if there is a school within a certain radius, it can't even share a common wall with a grocery store. And no off-sale alcohol on Sundays. (Restaurants and bars are open on Sunday, though, and free to sell drinks to be consumed on site.)</p> <p>Then they finally opened it up just a teensy bit: "near beer" can now be sold in grocery stores. Still only grocery stores; you can't get it in convenience stores or gas stations or Target or Walmart. And now they even let them sell that on Sunday. This of course has opened up a pretty big market for near beer, wine coolers, and so forth. If you want some beer but don't want to make a second stop, you can get the weak stuff at the grocery store. The strong stuff is over at the liquor store, and only available Monday through Saturday.</p> <p>Also, we can't buy cars on Sunday. Minnesota blue laws. ;-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285822&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DoMwb1l1zkTcK-xOL8_WC_4h0EB-kRDYHCBAW54dIp0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285822">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285823" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424251534"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Calli;</p> <p>The liquor stores in MN close at ungodly early hours, too, as I remember from a trip to visit a friend there 4 or 5 years ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285823&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ct1D0No3oYl25KiPcLYPuMUlrWE0oSiu-eDXJKoDsMA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285823">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285824" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424259677"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ha...acupuncture doesn't work..that's funny..you are one dumb fool...I personally have used acupuncture to help with everything from chronic back pain to torn shoulder ligaments...when I went first,I thought it was bullshit too but my wife convinced me to go..I was expecting nothing from it,so the placebo effect was not valid here...my pain shrank in half by the next day and I had been in constant pain for months...the issue is acupuncturists are not all created equal...some are better than others but to say it doesn't work just makes you sound ignorant..its the longest running sham in medical history....thousands of years because it doesn't work...ha...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285824&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pox43xzrw9XfkSJv_OxclamC8RE3jPn0gkvUeOWWjjI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">garypetrol (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285824">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285825" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424262861"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@shay #19:</p> <p>Each to their own!</p> <p>@Denice #23:</p> <p>I'd certainly want to call it something like that if I were offering the treatment. I reckon the take-up around here would be embarassingly high. Just as well I have both a full-time job and a conscience.</p> <p>@CTGeneGuy #30:</p> <p>I'm not convinced that even a placebo of that strength would be enough to overcome the pain of being faced with politicians so mind-numbingly hypocritical. I bet they're the type who loudly proclaim themselves patriots, while happily wasting public money on a show of undermining the Constitution.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285825&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aUkNb8Lzu-c17IT7thXKcNs4cv821ELd2s-jyK5ESW8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285825">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285826" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424264982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>“Because surgery is offered for “psychosomatic” conditions?”</p> <p>1) Yes, surgery is offered for LBP, which can also be treated successfully, as described, by psychological intervention.</p></blockquote> <p>It is not offered <b>as a placebo</b>, and lower back pain isn't a "psychosomatic condition." Moreover, conservative treatment isn't purely CBT. And where, precisely, did you get the "as described" from? LBP isn't in Eric Lund's comment.</p> <blockquote><p>2) Also, we know that not all surgery for LBP relieves symptoms, even though by your definition (there is physiological change) it is ‘effective’– therefore it is not ‘successful’.</p></blockquote> <p>"My definition"? No, that's <i>your</i> difficulty with reading comprehension shining through again.</p> <blockquote><p>3) Logically, some ‘effective’ surgery must be ‘successful’ due to placebo effect– the physical outcome is the same as in (2) but the psychological outcome is the same as in (1).</p></blockquote> <p>See #1.</p> <blockquote><p>Narad, I think you should stick to doing elementary numerical calculations and stay away from the logic department.</p></blockquote> <p>Says the chairman of the irony department.</p> <blockquote><p>The point is that for LBP (not asthma or any other strawman) there is evidence that both things alleviate symptoms.</p></blockquote> <p>Asthma <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/asthma-placebo-and-how-not-to-kill-your-patients/">isn't a "strawman"</a>. Then again, I didn't mention it for <i>your</i> benefit.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285826&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kXyqeXJo0zLZLY54zgIrOkhq-Z0ou_V_cKvk1R52ap0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285826">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285827" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424265654"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rich Woods</p> <blockquote><p>I hope I can get Satanic rituals on the NHS. I don’t think I could afford to go private.</p></blockquote> <p>If they ares still charging the traditional price for these things, you could afford it, but you may not want to pay it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285827&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PyEjsuL6zq6XYm9Qh7Fqt3wpcvnwbagUfwVVLF75vPQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Militant Agnostic (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285827">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285828" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424270613"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#45 Narad,</p> <p>I think the question I raised is an interesting one, and I would be happy to engage in a sober discussion of the topic. You don't appear to meet the requirement for such a conversation right now.</p> <p>Perhaps, if you would take some time and write a coherent paragraph or two articulating your viewpoint, my opinion might change.</p> <p>Begin by reading the OP and Orac's comment at #39.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285828&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a39swyNbpABRwSw9ZsILGFKNFMHGlX036Gr0_FSh3Bc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285828">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285829" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424270673"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: The state requires they open no earlier than 8AM and close no later than 10PM on every day except Sundays, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day (when they must be closed), and except on Christmas Eve, when they can be open until 8PM. Some cities are more restrictive.</p> <p>Mind you, if you live in the Twin Cities, Hudson, WI isn't very far away, and then you can buy it under Wisconsin rules. They're quite a bit less restrictive. ;-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285829&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kPnZmT_6m_kNafKUrA9wIp_6h9ClqTCPOYuk6Jh0Yig"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285829">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285830" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424292113"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Calli:</p> <p>Yeah, we were in a small town - my buddy's hometown - and I remember making a beer run one evening before 8 pm. It may well have been a Sunday. </p> <p>As a matter of fact, he <i>moved</i> down to Wisconsin while I was making that particular visit - we drove down in a van he'd bought from his boss for a hundred bucks, and in which we crashed in various locales in Madison for a while; sadly, we never did park it down by any rivers. (Said friend is now a co-owner of a certain independent video store in Madison; he and his coworkers talked the former owner down to a very reasonable price for the place, and they're aware that the venture has, uh, a limited shelf life.)</p> <p>But yeah, I remember stopping at a gas station past the state line and remarking upon the fact that most of what they seemed to be selling was beer.</p> <p>Funnily enough, most of my best friends from college have ended up in the northern Midwest. Well, most of them were <i>from</i> the Midwest to begin with, and felt something almost like a moral obligation to move back - as one friend put it, "The Midwest <i>needs</i> its weirdos."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285830&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5034q8E6080OSemU-Sw9xZ-reeEErkQxD1IZ8BRUMc4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285830">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285831" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424317680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I think the question I raised is an interesting one, and I would be happy to engage in a sober discussion of the topic. You don’t appear to meet the requirement for such a conversation right now.</p></blockquote> <p>Zebra, I'm the only one who's much bothered paying any attention to you at all. Trying to tell me to "begin by reading the OP and Orac’s comment at #39," as though I somehow had missed those despite replying to another comment well before you yet again decided to "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/16/cdc-did-not-admit-flu-vacine-does-not-work/#comment-381660">get people thinking about the issue in a ‘scientific’ way</a>" by ultimately deploying your laser-like "epistemological" focus to state that "I think the problem is using 'effective' in different ways" and then being able to cobble together nothing better than <i>that</i> is merely – <i>¿cómo se dice?</i> – <b>running the fυck away</b>.</p> <p>Oh, dear, am I "filibustering"?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285831&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WaNc5uT3Il24ohDoACAmdFaQzeZeLUsDuR-_3FZ2HI8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285831">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285832" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424421185"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#16, #43</p> <p>Looking at these two comments, we might consider the following:</p> <p>Would garypetrol, for whom acupuncture has been successful in reducing perceived pain, be engaging in "needle-seeking" if he requested a prescription for acupuncture? </p> <p>What if Orac succeeds in reversing the mainstreaming of acupuncture, so that it can't be covered by insurance? Would garypetrol turn to crime to support his habit? </p> <p>The point, again, is that it isn't a trivial matter to replace this intervention that clearly has utility with something equally benign.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285832&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5FZW75cDH6pZn7NumXKGNYuVTPg4JnfsT3i7tzGDxhw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285832">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285833" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424421348"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What if Orac succeeds in reversing the mainstreaming of acupuncture, so that it can’t be covered by insurance? Would garypetrol turn to crime to support his habit?</p></blockquote> <p>You seem to be conflating two very different forms of "needle-seeking" behavior.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285833&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0WqjeJ4TOK09Zu0vpIqGMZMTGVJE-cANuCP7qsBY4vA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285833">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285834" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424421547"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#52</p> <p>Are there pills for irony deficit?</p> <p>And maybe for "knee-jerk without even a little critical reasoning" disease?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285834&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TPYCIIf6ufnfgEKNrPVe2AggO12BGtmWvKxOh4CzzG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285834">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285835" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424423141"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra, I was laughing <i>at</i> you. Your general humorlessness and unfounded condescension have become extremely tiresome.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285835&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ou360bXC0RZPkh-9Urw2qMLYP5Z52S18EZ0Z2H2zKAM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285835">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285836" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424424088"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>How do we know that the reduction in garypetrol's pain would not have happened even if he didn't have acupuncture? Torn shoulder ligaments do heal, eventually. </p> <p>Anecdotally, I was diagnosed with a frozen shoulder some years ago, and my GP said that it would take six months to heal unless I had a steroid injection in the joint. The doctor who was good at giving these injections was on vacation for two weeks, and I elected to wait until he returned. As it happened the pain resolved completely before the doctor got back. If I had had acupuncture during that time I might well have thought that it had led to this miraculous recovery, which was more likely a simple misdiagnosis.</p> <p>There's this pervasive idea that placebos actually do something, when much of their perceived effects are due to regression to the mean, confirmation bias, or are not even perceived effects at all, but merely the patient wanting to please a therapist they like.</p> <blockquote><p>The point, again, is that it isn’t a trivial matter to replace this intervention that clearly has utility with something equally benign.</p></blockquote> <p>Why can't it be replaced by massage, relaxation, visualization, gentle exercise, hypnosis or another placebo? I suspect an inclination to believe in acupuncture is likely to be accompanied by an inclination to believe in other placebo therapies. Is all the nonsense about meridians, chi and ancient wisdom really necessary for a placebo to be helpful in the way acupuncture sometimes appears to be?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285836&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wZ1Zafn1GQQkAdwQLV_bLd5JABNMrJTxYnKqBER9lTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285836">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285837" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424430655"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#55, 54</p> <p>I was right!</p> <p>zebra, original comment:</p> <p>"But what exactly is the plan by which one might ‘eliminate’ acupuncture? Replace it with a different theatrical placebo? If you have a patient who believes it works, what would you do– first put them through some kind of deprogramming, and then convince them that “nothing” works just as well if only they will ‘believe’?"</p> <p>I can see it now-- garypetrol goes to Dr. Krebiozen and requests acupuncture, and Dr. K says:</p> <p>"feeerst, looook eentooo my eyeeees"...</p> <p>and *hypnotizes away* any of that "ancient wisdom" foolishness.</p> <p>Hypnotism, yeah, that's the ticket, hypnotism....</p> <p>JP, what you think of as 'unfounded condescension' to me is eye-rolling amazement, about people who claim to be scientifically grounded.</p> <p>How about trying a serious discussion of a serious question-- or is it too hard to let go of your simplistic ideology and be objective? </p> <p>Krebiozen gives an excellent example in his anecdote, even if he doesn't realize it. Why is it better to give a (potentially harmful) steroid injection for a condition that will resolve anyway than to try acupuncture first? It even has some of the trappings of magical thinking itself, with "the doctor who was good at giving those injections"-- seriously? There was a clinical study involving this particular doctor that showed better outcomes? How is that different from what garypetrol said about the abilities of acupuncturists?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285837&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FuK3uqaUsNijYIgpoURC3Otk6SXn83zSWtNy0Gv0OK8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285837">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285838" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424431573"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For Krebiozen:</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Woman">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Woman</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285838&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xuzH71EK0JFSUTCvRWtGqAwEa6W6OIPzawVt-hE40hU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285838">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285839" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424435351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,<br /> why do you think acupuncture wouldn't/couldn't be potentially harmful? (<a href="http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/12/10-076737/en/">http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/12/10-076737/en/</a>)</p> <p>Or that choosing acupuncture wouldn't delay some effective treatment, thereby further aggravating the situation even if acupuncture didn't cause any adverse effects?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285839&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8WMOLmlJHC1o2nd8OrrbnVH9pOPZPP3AAoD0v_6YO8M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285839">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285840" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424441735"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> But what exactly is the plan by which one might ‘eliminate’ acupuncture? Replace it with a different theatrical placebo? </p></blockquote> <p>Why replace it with anything?</p> <p>I'd suggest getting the word out that it does nothing, can be dangerous, and those that say otherwise are silly people. If we start early, say, grade school, and teach the kids, and keep reminding them every year, we could wipe out acupuncture in their lifetimes.</p> <p>The same goes for homeopathy, which is just as silly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285840&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y0WU_acob7hlPTRl7BHkUV7ySzqD3w9MyTKJzSkC1VI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 20 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285840">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285841" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424503894"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>Hypnotism, yeah, that’s the ticket, hypnotism….</p></blockquote> <p>You claimed that "it isn’t a trivial matter to replace this intervention that clearly has utility with something equally benign". I suggested a number of other placebos that are equally benign, and asked why these would not adequately substitute for acupuncture. Why does hypnosis, which has <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17558718">some evidence to support its efficacy in chronic pain</a> generate your eye-rolling scorn when acupuncture apparently does not? </p> <blockquote><p>JP, what you think of as ‘unfounded condescension’ to me is eye-rolling amazement, about people who claim to be scientifically grounded.</p></blockquote> <p>What have I written that is not scientifically grounded, exactly? Describing hypnosis as a placebo?</p> <blockquote><p>Krebiozen gives an excellent example in his anecdote, even if he doesn’t realize it. Why is it better to give a (potentially harmful) steroid injection for a condition that will resolve anyway than to try acupuncture first? </p></blockquote> <p>Frozen shoulder <a href="http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1261598-overview">does not generally resolve spontaneously</a>. The fact that my shoulder pain did resolve spontaneously strongly suggests misdiagnosis. </p> <blockquote><p>It even has some of the trappings of magical thinking itself, with “the doctor who was good at giving those injections”– seriously? There was a clinical study involving this particular doctor that showed better outcomes? How is that different from what garypetrol said about the abilities of acupuncturists?</p></blockquote> <p>One GP in the practice had recently been on a training course on giving corticosteroid injections into joints. How is this magical thinking?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285841&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k5sPkUNeU6TnF-KvKzAtzdlSV_3hD8_J7kXdEBpG4sI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285841">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285842" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424506152"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#60</p> <p>"The doctor who was good at giving these injections" sure sounds like gary's 'not all acupuncturists are as good as mine'. Only now do we hear about "recently been on a training course". By the way:</p> <p><a href="http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/frozen-shoulder/basics/treatment/con-20022510">http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/frozen-shoulder/basics/tr…</a></p> <p>" If I had had acupuncture during that time I might well have thought that it had led to this miraculous recovery, which was more likely a simple misdiagnosis." </p> <p>Likewise if you had had the injection-- exactly my point; the injection is a riskier placebo, compared with medically supervised acupuncture. In the future, you would be more inclined to request that treatment-- "steroid seeking".</p> <p>Now, how does your listing of other alternatives answer my question? (Try to read slowly and carefully:)</p> <p>"“But what exactly is the plan by which one might ‘eliminate’ acupuncture? Replace it with a different theatrical placebo? If you have a patient who believes it works, what would you do– first put them through some kind of deprogramming, and then convince them that “nothing” works just as well if only they will ‘believe’?”"</p> <p>Also, I refer you again to the wise Donna Changstein.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285842&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dulYBRQB0pfnOiLgOK6SJf1IGmRlQfhj5oEJUtreO6k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285842">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285843" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424506828"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As you're using the word placebo in a novel fashion, care to explain <i>your</i> definition of it for the rest of the class?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285843&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PuGdAW49nPg_GFeY3wcAplppOHn_TJqyxRW783zCr5U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285843">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285844" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424511154"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#62</p> <p>"As you’re using the word placebo in a novel fashion,"</p> <p>How is 'the way I am using it' "novel"? I've used it multiple times in normal English sentences.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285844&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8CCd47zsRrrwRefxpxfIrCU7OIKpGW-aXWaMkg4en0E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285844">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285845" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424515384"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In your world, do placebo usually have such documented anti-inflammatory properties like corticortisoids has, or do you think effective drugs suddenly become placebos if the original diagnosis they were prescribed for was (possibly) incorrect?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285845&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MiAr8Ey0JpcTDwTAe0f_snIvqbryxY6v29MBJvF-0Hg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285845">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285846" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424515397"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>“The doctor who was good at giving these injections” sure sounds like gary’s ‘not all acupuncturists are as good as mine’. </p></blockquote> <p>Except acupuncture is a placebo, intra-articular steroid injections are not placebos, and there is good evidence that <a href="http://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/307/6915/1329.full.pdf">placement of intra-articular steroid injections has a significant effect on outcomes</a>. Is there any evidence that a skilled acupuncturist elicits a stronger placebo response than a rookie? Maybe there is, I don't know.</p> <blockquote><p>Only now do we hear about “recently been on a training course”. </p></blockquote> <p>Sorry, I didn't realize I had too explain in exquisite detail why my GP believed her colleague would be the best person to administer this treatment. I'll try harder in future.</p> <blockquote><p>By the way: [Mayo Clinic link snipped]</p></blockquote> <p>Which says:</p> <blockquote><p>Injecting corticosteroids into your shoulder joint may help decrease pain and improve shoulder mobility.</p></blockquote> <p>How precisely does that conflict with what I wrote?</p> <blockquote><p>” If I had had acupuncture during that time I might well have thought that it had led to this miraculous recovery, which was more likely a simple misdiagnosis.”<br /> Likewise if you had had the injection– exactly my point; the injection is a riskier placebo, compared with medically supervised acupuncture. In the future, you would be more inclined to request that treatment– “steroid seeking”.</p></blockquote> <p>I don't see your point at all. The injection is not a placebo for correctly diagnosed frozen shoulder: there is <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1463095/">good evidence that it is both safe and effective</a>. Waiting a couple of weeks and/or trying physiotherapy before the injection would seem better options than acupuncture to me. Personally, since I'm aware of cognitive biases, I try to look at the evidence, and not rely on what seems to have worked for me in the past.</p> <blockquote><p>Now, how does your listing of other alternatives answer my question? (Try to read slowly and carefully:)</p></blockquote> <p>I love it when you get didactic, it's adorable, though I don't think you have quite mastered the Socratic approach. </p> <blockquote><p>““But what exactly is the plan by which one might ‘eliminate’ acupuncture? Replace it with a different theatrical placebo? If you have a patient who believes it works, what would you do– first put them through some kind of deprogramming, and then convince them that “nothing” works just as well if only they will ‘believe’?””</p></blockquote> <p>I wasn't attempting to answer that question. It's a straw man since I don't think anyone is suggesting we eliminate acupuncture; I'm certainly not. I don't care what therapies people want to use, as long as they are properly informed about the risks and benefits and they don't put their children at risk. I just object when people claim that acupuncture is any better than an elaborate placebo, when they teach doctors how to perform it in medical schools, or use my taxes to pay for it. </p> <p>I was responding to your suggestion that "it isn’t a trivial matter to replace this intervention that clearly has utility with something equally benign". I don't see why it isn't a trivial matter when we have a plethora of treatments that are essentially placebos, and that don't necessarily come with supernatural trappings like chi and meridans or the patina of 'ancient wisdom'. "Massage works just as well as acupuncture, doesn't involve any needles and feel much nicer", seems pretty persuasive to me</p> <blockquote><p>Also, I refer you again to the wise Donna Changstein.</p></blockquote> <p>I just watched that episode of Seinfeld, out of idle curiosity. A woman adopts a Chinese-sounding name, people assume she is Chinese until they meet her and she adopts some stereotypical Chinese characteristics with hilarious consequences. Maybe it's me, but the only relevance to placebos in general or acupuncture I see is that the woman takes acupuncture classes. How is she wise? Because she quotes Confucius?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285846&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c-F9o9cYKiyNUDX3uBJdBvgYuLcnt7SH4Ub2CcXzUn8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285846">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285847" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424521070"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#64</p> <p>OK, got it. </p> <p>I don't know the exact details of K's case, so it may not be perfectly applicable, but for LBP, where most cases resolve themselves in a few days, I mean it in the original sense: </p> <p>Doing it to please the patient.</p> <p>Now, Krebiozen seemed to indicate originally that he would have taken the jab had that other doctor been around, but now he is saying that he would have waited or done the other options like physiotherapy. Again, I don't know enough about his case. In other instances I know about the doctor has been reluctant to recommend that kind of injection before waiting and using NSAIDS, at least.</p> <p>I also refer you to Orac at #39:</p> <p>"Surgery can be one of the most powerful placeboes there are, actually."</p> <p>Which fits with my other comments-- just because something has *some* physical/physiological effect (e.g. fusing vertebrae) doesn't mean that the pain relief isn't the result of placebo effect or just time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285847&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QsNfGl4zje4SmG0HpsruDw25z2dUL0xife_vQv53N4w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285847">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285848" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424522403"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#65</p> <p>If you read my earlier comments, I mentioned that Orac's goal would be to have acupuncture not payed for by insurance (or NHS or whatever), and you seem to agree.</p> <p>So there is no strawman at all. For garypetrol, you would be taking away something that works for him, and replacing it with your preferred placebo. Seeking that goal is your prerogative as a religious/ideological/political matter, but it isn't science. </p> <p>For gary, like the characters in Seinfeld, the 'ancient wise Chinese' association may make acupuncture more believable than hypnosis, and therefore it will be more effective as a placebo. Belief by both the practitioner and the patient, as far as I know, affects outcomes.</p> <p>(By the way, I really don't understand why you put massage in the category of placebo, at least for LBP and frozen shoulder and stuff like that.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285848&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BRCVktJX6Jyp8aEfjB3CLMvxtuPQBqxuRViyBuHZxeQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285848">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285849" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424531348"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>Now, Krebiozen seemed to indicate originally that he would have taken the jab had that other doctor been around, but now he is saying that he would have waited or done the other options like physiotherapy. </p></blockquote> <p>As I recall, I had already waited for a few weeks and done some exercises suggested by my GP. Had the GP trained in giving the injection been available I probably would have gone for it, as the condition was very painful and inconvenient - I couldn't drive, for example. Had I done so I might well have attributed my recovery to the injection just as I might have attributed it to acupuncture, had I had that. That was the point of my anecdote. That's why we have clinical trials; we can't come to conclusions from individual experiences like this because they are misleading. Why you felt it necessary to make such a meal of it is beyond me.</p> <p>BTW, I don't know if you can describe an active treatment for a misdiagnosed condition that would have resolved anyway as a placebo. It comes down to semantics, I guess.</p> <blockquote><p>Again, I don’t know enough about his case. In other instances I know about the doctor has been reluctant to recommend that kind of injection before waiting and using NSAIDS, at least.</p></blockquote> <p>I had already done that.</p> <blockquote><p>Which fits with my other comments– just because something has *some* physical/physiological effect (e.g. fusing vertebrae) doesn’t mean that the pain relief isn’t the result of placebo effect or just time.</p></blockquote> <p>That's why we have clinical trials. I don't think anyone is suggesting that placebo effects are not part of conventional treatments. You get a free placebo effect with every intervention. The point is that there are conditions that are not amenable to placebos, like frozen shoulder, for example.</p> <blockquote><p>If you read my earlier comments, I mentioned that Orac’s goal would be to have acupuncture not payed for by insurance (or NHS or whatever), and you seem to agree.<br /> So there is no strawman at all. </p></blockquote> <p>Not having acupuncture paid for by insurance or the NHS is hardly "eliminating" it.</p> <blockquote><p>For garypetrol, you would be taking away something that works for him, and replacing it with your preferred placebo. </p></blockquote> <p>I'm not taking anything away from him. If he can afford insurance, presumably he can afford acupuncture, and there are plenty of acupuncturists available for him to choose from. I wouldn't want other placebos paid for by insurance either, as I don't believe they should be a part of SBM. </p> <p>I don't know how many insurance companies reimburse for acupuncture or how much it costs the average person as a result. I do know the NHS spends about £25 million every year on acupuncture, money that could have been better spent on hip replacements, cancer drugs or transplants. </p> <blockquote><p>Seeking that goal is your prerogative as a religious/ideological/political matter, but it isn’t science.</p></blockquote> <p>It's politics based on science. In my opinion insurance companies and the NHS should only pay for treatments that have a compelling scientific evidence base. Acupuncture and other placebos do not. A weekend break in the countryside may also make someone feel better, but I don't think other people should pay for it whether through insurance or taxes. </p> <blockquote><p>For gary, like the characters in Seinfeld, the ‘ancient wise Chinese’ association may make acupuncture more believable than hypnosis, and therefore it will be more effective as a placebo. Belief by both the practitioner and the patient, as far as I know, affects outcomes.</p></blockquote> <p>It doesn't affect hard outcomes, as placebos do not affect objective endpoints. That's the point. </p> <blockquote><p>(By the way, I really don’t understand why you put massage in the category of placebo, at least for LBP and frozen shoulder and stuff like that.)</p></blockquote> <p>Massage, as far as I know, does not address the underlying cause of those conditions. It doesn't reduce joint inflammation or correct a prolapsed vertebra. That's why.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285849&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gnvGJ8nPvydeYDC7AFGuQA4Eoxjq5V8OAd5jNjkX3p0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285849">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285850" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424531440"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t know the exact details of K’s case, so it may not be perfectly applicable, but for LBP, <b>where most cases resolve themselves in a few days</b>, I mean it in the original sense:</p> <p>Doing it to please the patient.</p></blockquote> <p>That's some impressive OR availability.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285850&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BYCMz9p9g-QkTeLAvZt2N_ELUns0nbut7jrZysNcawc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285850">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285851" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424570300"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If you read my earlier comments</p></blockquote> <p>Now that you mention it, you seem to be desperately reliant upon "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/05/science-and-the-aaas-sell-their-souls-to-promote-pseudoscience-in-medicine/#comment-380044">the short memory</a>," to upend a certain IWW intro.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285851&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ASJ_e6LZjthX_Ic2z-HSX5OHZ0DpHroDJA05SGzJflo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285851">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285852" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424570549"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>(By the way, I really don’t understand why you put massage in the category of placebo, at least for LBP and frozen shoulder and <b>stuff like that</b>.)</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, folks, you're just <i>not up to this epistemological level</i>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285852&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ac7CzB6l9wS2XSn_NKFqHwpjezIdGj6Pghq5qpIExiI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285852">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285853" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424584683"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#68</p> <p>"It doesn’t affect hard outcomes, as placebos do not affect objective endpoints. That’s the point. "</p> <p>" It comes down to semantics, I guess."</p> <p>The substance of your position is actually accessible in what you've written, but it is difficult to discuss if there is no agreement about terminology.</p> <p>First, let's agree that what I call insurance is your NHS-- the baseline of access to treatment for citizens of limited means. (As I'm sure you know, our USA patchwork system defies any simple description.)</p> <p>So, you say you don't want to pay for a poor person, who like gary finds relief from pain through medically prescribed acupuncture, but you are comfortable paying for highly addictive opioid drugs, and any subsequent intervention should he indeed become dependent.</p> <p>(There are other interesting points to discuss but let's be clear about this first.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285853&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xxb76J7AA_yb_5cTQq5IFCBnvop61jT7AHjktpQcyJ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285853">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285854" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424586253"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Do you assume acupuncture would be equally effective to opioid drugs, for pain relief? Or would have been as effective as corticosteroid injections for frozen shoulder?</p> <blockquote><p>the [steroid] injection is a riskier placebo, </p></blockquote> <p>And you explained your word choice with:<br /> [talking about placebos] I mean it in the original sense:</p> <p>Doing it to please the patient.</p> <p>But that's not the definition of placebo, and I think it's telling that two posts after your explanation you complain how "it is difficult to discuss if there is no agreement about terminology".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285854&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f509U5xcSbBlRQg1gQriSRB1cNvdMRNAhZ2gMuzgu1w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285854">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285855" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424586338"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mangled the second blockquote, but the point should still be obvious.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285855&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5SBtpS9Fu3gJXppf-DX3Jtpr6KSjXVzl7w-Y-udEfnE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285855">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285856" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424606197"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Kreb:<br /> &lt;blockquote≥Why can’t it be replaced by massage, relaxation, visualization, gentle exercise, hypnosis or another placebo? I suspect an inclination to believe in acupuncture is likely to be accompanied by an inclination to believe in other placebo therapies. Is all the nonsense about meridians, chi and ancient wisdom really necessary for a placebo to be helpful in the way acupuncture sometimes appears to be?</p> <p>Placebo treatments are psychology, not physical medicine. They don't affect any dysfunction of the trunk or limbs. They affect the way the patient perceives and experiences them — which CAN improve their function. Like any psychological treatment one size does not fit all, and how well the theater will work depends on the mental state in which the individual enters. </p> <p>To cross to to other threads: 'Integrative Medicine' centers serving Ojibwe First Nations people in Canada use traditional rituals with apparent success in treating mental health and substance abuse issues, also in providing support for long term chronic physical illness being treated as best it can by available sbm. These rituals would be unlikely to help us if he had similar problems, as we wouldn't believe in them.</p> <p>I suspect the opposite of your suspicion. I suspect the variety of placebo 'modalities' proliferates exactly because people inclined to believe in one are not inclined to believe in others. Yes, any placebo can be replaced by any other the patient believes in equally. This is not a matter of expectation going in, though that's pre-requisite, but the way the individual interacts with the ritual. </p> <p>For one person, some belief in qi may be necessary for acupuncture to 'work' on their psychology. Another patient may benefit less if qi i discussed. I suspect the pseudo-science of meridians and of 'insertion points' are completely disposable for almost anyone. Again one patient might benefit more from a rubric of 'traditional wisdom' another from one of 'new discovery'. It's all a head game.</p> <p>There are so many variables, and so much woo in the way, that any placebo treatment is difficult to research. At a minimum, you'd need consistency among patient interaction skills and 'theatrical talent' of practitioners across experimental groups.</p> <p>Why, we may wonder, are many acupuncturists (not most, but a significant number) NOT afraid of an 'Integretive' system that would deny them the opportunity to claim effect in treating physical illness — no it won't fix the problem IN your shoulder joint, but you might have more use of your shoulder because it will relieve the mental pile-on heading back to your shoulder through the CNS — thus restricting their practice to palliative care? </p> <p>Because they believe they have a more broadly effective palliative care theater than the competiton. They think they can go head to head with massage, relaxation, visualization, gentle exercise, hypnosis — and come out ahead in patient self-reports and other tests of pragmatic quotidian function in the same way CBT has proven to be more generally effective that other talking therapies. They believe when all is said and done, and behind the curtain they nudge and wink with all the MDs that its just theater, they'll still have secure well-paying jobs.</p> <p>The thing is. They might be right. About being better theater for a wider range of people...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285856&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iZBq5fx17cZKItdEdJcfhVJDOqMcG2cKuVZzGTROud0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285856">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285857" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424609989"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,<br /> Trying to have a fruitful discussion with you is extremely frustrating, as you appear to be either unable to state your position clearly and provide evidence to support it, or you are unwilling to do so for some reason. </p> <blockquote><p>“It doesn’t affect hard outcomes, as placebos do not affect objective endpoints. That’s the point. ”<br /> ” It comes down to semantics, I guess.”<br /> The substance of your position is actually accessible in what you’ve written, but it is difficult to discuss if there is no agreement about terminology.</p></blockquote> <p>You took my second quote out of context to make it look as if I meant something else. This isn't the first time you have played silly games like this. There is agreement about terminology: a placebo is an inert treatment, i.e. one that has no objective therapeutic effect. </p> <p>I was musing on whether a non-inert treatment that does have an objective effect on one condition (i.e. steroid injection for frozen shoulder) could be considered a placebo for another condition (i.e. idiopathic shoulder pain). If I had experienced improvement after having an injection, even though the condition would have resolved within a couple of weeks anyway, is that really a placebo effect? I would argue not, as the injection would probably have had the objective effect of reducing the pain and inflammation. I might have been spared a week or so of pain and immobility.</p> <blockquote><p>First, let’s agree that what I call insurance is your NHS– the baseline of access to treatment for citizens of limited means. (As I’m sure you know, our USA patchwork system defies any simple description.)</p></blockquote> <p>I'm not very familiar with the US system, especially since recent changes were introduced. You seem to be conflating medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.</p> <p>The NHS provides for all residents, not just citizens, by the way - my wife is American and gets free treatment. The NHS has limited resources, and I think those resources should be used in a cost-effective manner. I don't believe acupuncture is cost-effective. Paying £25 million every year for acupuncture means there is £25 million less to be spent on doctors, nurses, expensive cancer treatments or whatever. This isn't an abstract argument, several hospital trusts have run out of money and been unable to pay for cancer treatments (Google "cancer drugs postcode lottery" for examples). </p> <blockquote><p>So, you say you don’t want to pay for a poor person, who like gary finds relief from pain through medically prescribed acupuncture, </p></blockquote> <p>As I understand it Medicaid provides for those of limited means, and <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440844">only a small minority of Medicaid programs (15.2%) pay for acupuncture</a>. Medicare, for the elderly and disabled, does not cover acupuncture at all. It looks like gary may be out of luck anyway.</p> <p>As for the NHS, when the best evidence tells us that gary is mistaken and the treatment has no objective effect on his condition, no, I don't think the NHS should pay for it. <a href="http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.a3115">The analgesic effects of acupuncture are small and barely clinically significant</a>; I don't think depriving poor people of this will be terribly onerous for them. Physiotherapy and effective medication like NSAIDs are available free of charge on the NHS for those of limited means. </p> <p>I'm not a great fan of slippery slope arguments, but I do have to wonder where we draw the line if acupuncture becomes a part of mainstream medicine. Does exorcism qualify? I'm sure it might have great psychological benefits for some - it's even more theatrical than surgery. If a person's experience of pain is affected by a glass of wine and a good movie, should we provide those on insurance or on the NHS? </p> <blockquote><p>but you are comfortable paying for highly addictive opioid drugs, and any subsequent intervention should he indeed become dependent.</p></blockquote> <p>Where did I say that? I don't think opiates are indicated for the sort of problems gary described; NSAIDs are more useful as they also have an anti-inflammatory effect. I doubt very much that acupuncture would be very helpful in cases where opiates are required (see cited review above). Anyway, I suspect that gary's conditions would have resolved without acupuncture, so no long term medication would have been required. He reported, "my pain shrank in half by the next day". None of the studies I have seen on acupuncture report that kind of effect, not reliably anyway. </p> <blockquote><p>(There are other interesting points to discuss but let’s be clear about this first.)</p></blockquote> <p>There is an argument to be had over whether placebos should be prescribed by doctors. I don't think there is a logical or scientific way of determining this; it depends on your philosophical and ethical approach to medicine. I would prefer us to use only science-based treatments, and to use what we know about placebo effects to maximize patients' subjective as well as objective improvements. We have other specialists who deal with people's emotional and 'spiritual' (whatever that means) well-being, and I see no reason for doctors to get involved unless these become pathological. YMMV.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285857&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hv2SG2aN0_aMG8GI3yP-e3jOhpTlC7t6Qtu8EQTWJkI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285857">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285858" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424610520"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#75</p> <p>Sadmar, I thought I had this all covered way back at #15 with my folksy yet erudite "different strokes", but sure, jump in with your fancy talk like "pragmatic quotidian function" to make me feel like a rube. ;-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285858&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cRXXP1Oh4Vvz4H-AWxEznM6fBRhS0xSIjzG8t-MaAD8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285858">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285859" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424623250"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Agreed, Krebiozen, my brief experience with the NHS medical model is very different from what we have here in the States. When I fell down Glastonbury Tor on vacation and broke my ankle, NHS gave me treatment without question and without charging me a cent. Here it would have been hundreds of dollars for an ER visit (often even the case with insurance), even before considering costs of x-rays, etc. All they asked of me was to please return the crutches before leaving the country as the hospital only owned three sets. There was also a notice in the hallway asking for donations towards the purchase of a new x-ray machine. Maybe without paying for acupuncture they'd have been able to afford modern equipment?</p> <p>Meanwhile, until the ACA went into effect, we were unable to buy individual health insurance for our family, because my son is autistic, even though none of the plans available covered anything related to autism in the first place.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285859&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ecXi5AZRk6A3tcAuWpBSB_lUf7XHL9mBPAQXlfZNlm0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285859">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285860" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424639579"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So, you say you don’t want to pay for a poor person, who like gary finds relief from pain through medically prescribed acupuncture, but you are comfortable paying for highly addictive opioid drugs, and any subsequent intervention should he indeed become dependent.</p></blockquote> <p>The whistling of the goalposts is like an Aeolian harp in reverse.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285860&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O4cHtjAMP81kFDZiJY9buKlGLKgdpiPBcfGxCXC9n8Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 22 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285860">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285861" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424670466"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#76</p> <p>Let's try again:</p> <p>"So, you say you don’t want to pay for a poor person, who like gary finds relief from pain through medically prescribed acupuncture, but you are comfortable paying for highly addictive opioid drugs, and any subsequent intervention should he indeed become dependent."</p> <p>I didn't ask for your gratuitously offered diagnosis or medical opinion about gary. As you say, there is a philosophical (or political or ideological) issue here. I'm just trying to establish some concrete parameters about your position.</p> <p>"Someone... who like gary finds relief from pain through MPA" doesn't mean "gary" in USA English at least; it means someone who according to the study in the OP is most likely to respond to MPA-- a 'believer', whether through experience or conviction.</p> <p>So, again, is it correct that you think NHS should pay for opiates to relieve pain, but it shouldn't pay for MPA *even for people like gary,* who are likely to report relief given their history, and might in fact request the treatment?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285861&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0IhNrKmr5SH0QakaKeurgaCBCrewjYmZDJ-xbSiZaTA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 23 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285861">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285862" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424757103"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>I didn’t ask for your gratuitously offered diagnosis or medical opinion about gary. </p></blockquote> <p>I didn't offer any sort of diagnosis; it was you suggested that he would require opiates and become a helpless junkie if cruelly deprived of free acupuncture (that mostly isn't available free for those of limited means in the US anyway). Acupuncture and opiates are the only possible treatment choices for "chronic back pain" and "shoulder ligaments", obviously (that's sarcasm, should it not be clear).</p> <p>I suspect you are heading back down the road of, "medicine isn't perfect so why are you worried about altmed", again. How can I complain about acupuncture when doctors are prescribing antibiotics for viral infections and people are getting hooked on opiates? Well I don't think that should happen either, two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm not at all convinced that acupuncture is an effective way of reducing opiate or antibiotic prescriptions. </p> <blockquote><p>As you say, there is a philosophical (or political or ideological) issue here. I’m just trying to establish some concrete parameters about your position.</p></blockquote> <p>I think that doctors should be using the most cost-effective treatments available, treatments that have compelling evidence for objective hard endpoints. I don't really think placebos should be prescribed, and I certainly don't think they should be paid for by insurance or the NHS. Clear enough?</p> <blockquote><p>So, again, is it correct that you think NHS should pay for opiates to relieve pain, but it shouldn’t pay for MPA *even for people like gary,* who are likely to report relief given their history, and might in fact request the treatment?</p></blockquote> <p>Correct. I don't think the NHS should pay for a million other things that might result in gary experiencing less pain yet have no objective effect on his injuries at all either. </p> <p>You seem to assume that gary's reported improvements after acupuncture were due to the acupuncture and/or his beliefs about it. I think it is more likely that those improvements would have happened anyway, and he erroneously attributed them to the acupuncture - part post hoc fallacy and part confirmation bias. </p> <p>You further assume that the next time gary is injured and has acupuncture, his beliefs about it will have some profound effect on his pain perception. I very much doubt it. The review I cited above found that acupuncture resulted in an average 4% reduction in pain, which is clinically insignificant. What I suspect would happen is that his injury would heal, just as it would have without acupuncture, and his confirmation bias would lead him attribute the improvement to the acupuncture. If the improvement isn't as rapid as he expects, he will blame the acupuncturists, because, "acupuncturists are not all created equal".</p> <p>The whole idea that placebos have miraculous effects in people who believe in them is suspect, in my opinion. I plowed my way through the paper referred to in the OP to see what magnitude of effect psychological correlates might have on the efficacy of acupuncture for LBP, but I couldn't find it. Statistical significance does not mean clinical significance, and I strongly suspect that these effects are small and temporary. </p> <p>I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise - show me the evidence. Some years ago I was very hopeful about the effects of placebos, until I started looking more closely at the evidence for their efficacy and slowly but surely became more and more skeptical.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285862&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c7N2-0W514PBRMd9br3FFmleUmD9MIXuhElrGVO7JEY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285862">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285863" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424765075"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Who needs acupuncture when we've got yoga?</p> <p>"“There is no downside to teaching cancer patients yoga,” said Cindy Finch, a clinical psychologist with the Mayo Clinic and with Reimagine, an online resource for cancer survivors."</p> <p>"Finch, who is also a cancer survivor, said she believed that health care need not treat patients exclusively with medications, surgery and other therapies that address only the physical side of illness. Treating the whole person, including the mind and spirit, helps the whole person recover, she said."</p> <p><a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cancer-centers-offer-yoga-patients/story?id=29164903">http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cancer-centers-offer-yoga-patients/story?i…</a></p> <p>See, Orac's facility isn't really treating the whole person, just disembodied organs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285863&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="z9efnUeXHbPAtzqAWncRrkElhA0G66Joc8PVJ4K8DpE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285863">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285864" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424768724"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dangerous Bacon,<br /> I see nothing wrong with yoga, as a form of gentle* stretching exercise: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23894731">it seems to be moderately effective for LBP</a>. I wouldn't want the NHS to pay for it though</p> <p>I have read that hatha yoga was developed as a way of allowing meditators to live long enough to achieve enlightenment in a single lifetime, but you don't need to believe any of the metaphysical trappings to get the benefits. Incidentally, my mother was told by her local Church of England vicar that by practicing yoga she was "meddling with the occult", which amused both her and me no end.</p> <blockquote><p>Treating the whole person, including the mind and spirit, helps the whole person recover, she said.</p></blockquote> <p>I was thinking about this recently, and it occurred to me that this 'holistic' approach is, ironically, dualistic. You have to have a concept of the mind and body as separate to treat them 'holistically'. Treating the mind, by encouraging more healthy habits of thought, as I believe CBT does, makes sense, but treating the spirit? How does that work? And how does yoga do either any more than any other physical workout? </p> <p>* Some yoga teachers like to push students until it hurts, but most that I have encountered say if it hurts you're doing it wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285864&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-ENwI4_CG3UEpzvtrgOWm05YZ-8SZb0o82-EIxJKgqM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285864">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285865" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424768798"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the question of whether acupuncture reduces analgesic medication use, one study in <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3563482/">this review</a> found:</p> <blockquote><p>a significant improvement in pain, function and quality of life after acupuncture treatment compared to routine care at 3 months</p></blockquote> <p>Sounds promising, but:</p> <blockquote><p>The improvement in pain in patients in the acupuncture group wasn’t significant enough for the patients to reduce the number of analgesics used during the trial as there was no significant difference between groups in analgesics being prescribed.</p></blockquote> <p>It looks as if the NHS or insurers might end up paying for both acupuncture <b>and</b> painkillers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285865&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6nX5993szsfBYrur-fuU9C1f9DANBdiICbbdj9NFe20"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285865">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285866" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424769196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I have read that hatha yoga was developed as a way of allowing meditators to live long enough to achieve enlightenment in a single lifetime, but you don’t need to believe any of the metaphysical trappings to get the benefits. </p></blockquote> <p>I always heard that certain hatha yoga postures (not hatha yoga as we know it today) were developed as exercises to help enable longer periods of sitting meditation. Anybody who's ever done a long Zen (or Vipassana, I suppose) retreat will understand that anything which helps take the strain off of one's back and knees would be welcome.</p> <p>Yoga as we know it know is hardly some ancient practice, although I did find a pretty vigorous vinyasa class in town that I like. (The instructor doesn't play crappy music - well, any music - or give anatomically impossible instructions like "open your clavicle." Okay, he doesn't really talk much at all, which is great.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285866&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1g1dnmKmUnMF2cG3zTgxZRopjqGPjxw9a7Mkh8na0mE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285866">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285867" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424770319"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#81</p> <p>Krebiozen, first, you deny making diagnoses but you do it all the time:</p> <p>"I think it is more likely that those improvements would have happened anyway,"</p> <p>I don't want to discuss it further but it is annoying and time-wasting; nobody cares what you think is wrong with gary, and his individual case is irrelevant anyway. We should stick to LBP-- my only interest in gary was as an example of someone with a strong positive view of acupuncture.</p> <p>Now, here's my first real problem with what you have been saying. You claim that you don't want to pay for things that don't treat the underlying condition, and you don't want to pay for things that make people feel good (slippery slope from previous comments.) </p> <p>But guess what: Opioids make people feel good, and as far as I know, opioids have never healed a herniated disk. So instead of rambling on about gary and Medicare and Medicaid, maybe you could stop and think about exactly what your philosophical or ideological or political position is, and articulate it briefly and coherently. I don't care if we call something placebo or zazebo; I just want, as I said before, to establish some (concrete) parameters.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285867&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dJsW14NAuZ20WjzW8gMtr_zlE0TOmfErjI-ZeRuaD9g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285867">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285868" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424782359"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>Krebiozen, first, you deny making diagnoses but you do it all the time:</p></blockquote> <p>For example? I don't think speculating about the possible causes of someone's symptoms is making a diagnosis.</p> <blockquote><p>“I think it is more likely that those improvements would have happened anyway,”<br /> I don’t want to discuss it further but it is annoying and time-wasting; nobody cares what you think is wrong with gary, and his individual case is irrelevant anyway. </p></blockquote> <p>So why did you bring it up? And why did you imply his condition would require opiates if he couldn't get acupuncture? </p> <p>It might annoy you, but I don't think it's a waste of time to clarify what is going on when people use a placebo like acupuncture. I don't think it is what you (and sadmar) seem to think.</p> <blockquote><p>We should stick to LBP– my only interest in gary was as an example of someone with a strong positive view of acupuncture.</p></blockquote> <p>You jumped from gary having a positive view of acupuncture to this positive view being the cause of his perceived pain relief. If you look carefully at the evidence this isn't what it suggests, it is more likely that regression to the mean combined with confirmation bias are responsible, as I have tried to explain.</p> <blockquote><p>Now, here’s my first real problem with what you have been saying. You claim that you don’t want to pay for things that don’t treat the underlying condition, and you don’t want to pay for things that make people feel good (slippery slope from previous comments.)</p></blockquote> <p>I don't want the NHS or insurance to pay for things that <b>just</b> make people feel good, let's be clear.</p> <blockquote><p>But guess what: Opioids make people feel good, and as far as I know, opioids have never healed a herniated disk. </p></blockquote> <p>Opiates don't <b>just</b>make people feel good, they result in a clinically significant reduction in pain and mobility, <a href="http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.a3115">unlike acupuncture</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. </p></blockquote> <p>If we're sticking to LBP, <a href="http://www.jaoa.osteopathic.org/content/101/4_suppl_2/6S.long">"NSAIDs are the most common analgesic medication used to treat low back pain"</a> and according to the NIH, "Some specialists are concerned that chronic use of opioids is detrimental to people with back pain because they can aggravate depression, leading to a worsening of the pain". Comparing acupuncture with opiates for LBP (or anything else, really) is not a valid comparison, and presenting them as a stark choice is downright misleading.</p> <blockquote><p>So instead of rambling on about gary and Medicare and Medicaid, </p></blockquote> <p>You brought up gary and insurance, not me.</p> <blockquote><p>maybe you could stop and think about exactly what your philosophical or ideological or political position is, and articulate it briefly and coherently. I don’t care if we call something placebo or zazebo; I just want, as I said before, to establish some (concrete) parameters.</p></blockquote> <p>What was unclear about what I wrote above? I think that doctors should be using the most cost-effective treatments available, treatments that have compelling evidence for objective hard endpoints. Perhaps I should add "clinically significant" to that. Opiate drugs, "work at the spinal level by binding to opiate receptors at the interneuron level in the dorsal horn" (op. cit.), and have a clinically significant effect on pain and mobility in LBP (e.g. PMID: 10743823).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285868&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lpQDUdJAlv-3-wOFnKFW9AcseTUXCcdpu2U7T15C0Vo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285868">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285869" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424786539"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#87</p> <p>So Krebiozen, are you now dropping your oft-repeated requirement that the treatment must affect the underlying condition?</p> <p>z: "(By the way, I really don’t understand why you put massage in the category of placebo, at least for LBP and frozen shoulder and stuff like that.)"</p> <p>k: "Massage, as far as I know, does not address the underlying cause of those conditions. It doesn’t reduce joint inflammation or correct a prolapsed vertebra. That’s why."</p> <p>Or would that wound your pride, so you will have to respond with yet another filibuster?</p> <p>If it will make you feel better, we can in fact call pain medication like opioids "zazebos".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285869&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9JippBFfWy5FQH9fgVTnWkTqcFNk8e_Qs0q0twhPsmc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285869">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285870" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424790584"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>So Krebiozen, are you now dropping your oft-repeated requirement that the treatment must affect the underlying condition?</p></blockquote> <p>The point about "treating the underlying condition" arose during a discussion of surgery versus acupuncture. Surgery addresses, or is intended to address, the underlying condition. It's curative. Pain relief is intended to reduce pain. It's palliative. The best quality evidence we have tells us that acupuncture and massage are not curative though <a href="http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20110705/study-massage-helps-treat-low-back-pain">massage may be palliative</a>, with an average 20 point improvement on a 100 mm pain VAS as compared to 4 mm for acupuncture.</p> <blockquote><p>Or would that wound your pride, so you will have to respond with yet another filibuster?</p></blockquote> <p>You still don't know what 'filibuster' means, apparently, and my pride, such as it is, is quite intact, thanks. How's yours doing?</p> <blockquote><p>If it will make you feel better, we can in fact call pain medication like opioids “zazebos”.</p></blockquote> <p>I'm just fine and dandy, thanks. Why would making up a silly word for palliative relief make me feel any better?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285870&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fjTkfpHQ9Me2A35Q3kis2g_yXF84HjdS0GHEmmajDqk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285870">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285871" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424792425"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#89</p> <p>z: “(By the way, I really don’t understand why you put massage in the category of placebo, at least for LBP and frozen shoulder and stuff like that.)”</p> <p>k: “Massage, as far as I know, does not address the underlying cause of those conditions. It doesn’t reduce joint inflammation or correct a prolapsed vertebra. That’s why.”</p> <p>So is massage a placebo or a zazebo? "That's why." sounds pretty definitive to me; I can almost hear an exclamation point at the end there.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285871&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="49lvG5tP1Oe7Lnx30ewMMZkSRxUFxpDRvloGQyvlaEo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285871">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285872" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424794663"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Or would that wound your pride, so you will have to respond with yet another filibuster?</p></blockquote> <p>Somehow, I doubt acupuncture would help alleviate the effect of Zebra's painfully limited repertoire.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285872&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fXD1lB0PDt5XwkuQiq1iU0rjrG-FvzjKNcwR2TEh2ow"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285872">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285873" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424794706"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're nothing if not zinzistent, I grant you that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285873&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aL7Q_tdegCJDxuCMab53cCnnd2Zbv9C5heDYw5DIhUM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285873">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285874" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424802952"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So is massage a placebo or a zazebo?</p></blockquote> <p>Massage is merely massage. It can provide temporary relaxation. It can provide temporary relief for muscular pain and muscle tension. It may make you feel more cared for, and may arouse you sexually.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285874&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pP2rnvK05oLofQ3bC0qvQ8GYCHCYgkdGMpn3pxyUqv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285874">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285875" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424803941"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Thai soapy massage": <i>Has it been compared with acupuncture?</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285875&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vbyPCp0AVQDHGgo8qtSIjnZKoyKJPBx1K3ILl-I0o3c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285875">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285876" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424808728"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I could, however, be convinced to pay a dollar for Zebra to misuse "interlocutor" again.</p> <p>Two bucks if it quotes a dictionary.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285876&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1lHzCY_zO_SqSiVCfsPVJUrL6E21-UW1-uRlwtUwO2c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 24 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285876">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285877" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424942127"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's touching to see how the Minion Squad rallies around Old Sarge Krebiozen when he can't quite keep his own arguments straight. </p> <p>However, I think Mr "Why Don't You Define Placebo" Gaist should be a little embarrassed about the inconsistency of his demands.</p> <p>It seems even Orac, in #39, </p> <p>"Surgery can be one of the most powerful placeboes there are, actually."</p> <p>demonstrates that maybe K needs to spend some time thinking through whatever he thinks he thinks.</p> <p>We can't all be trained professionals like sadmar, but we should aspire to achieve some clarity and organization in our presentations. (Rather than just blathering on with personal opinions and cherry-picked quotations; K is getting very close to Creationist/Denialist territory.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285877&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PNoKXI2A43lHVa74FcNYrnw-WTEdO2GLFimgeZRmgTE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285877">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285878" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424944704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,<br /> I have my arguments straight, thanks. The 'minions' only support me because what I have written makes sense. If I wrote something nonsensical I can promise you I would be called out on it immediately.</p> <p>No doubt you will accuse me of 'filibustering' again, but you keep attempting to force me to give a yes/no answer to questions that require a more complex response.</p> <blockquote><p>So is massage a placebo or a zazebo? </p></blockquote> <p>Who cares? There's no such thing as a zazebo, you just made the word up for no apparent reason.</p> <p>There are gray areas in the definition of placebo treatments, and some insist that the word 'placebo' should only be used to describe an inert treatment that has no physiological effects at all, like a sugar pill (though even that has led to problems where the sugar may have affected results). That's why many people prefer to talk about placebo effects, rather than arguing about whether a particular intervention is or is not a placebo. </p> <p>Whether or not the effects of acupuncture on LBP are real physiological effects is a more useful question than getting bogged down in semantics. Even then we run into problems, as sticking a needle in someone clearly has some physiological effects, such as causing endorphin release and counter-irritation. Do these objective physiological effects mean that the effects of acupuncture are not placebo effects? Perhaps, though I would argue that these effects can be elicited equally well by stomping on someone's foot. </p> <p>That leads us to clinical efficacy as a more useful measure of an intervention. Even if some effects of acupuncture are not placebo effects, the best evidence I have seen suggests that they are small and clinically insignificant. I think that the statistically significant but clinically insignificant effects of acupuncture have been used as a sort of Trojan horse to make people think that the sort of effects gary described, "my pain shrank in half by the next day", are real effects of the acupuncture, not merely regression to the mean combined with the post hoc fallacy. We see this with other altmed treatments, with people waving around clinical trials that show small effects of homeopathy as proof that homeopathy has the miraculous effects they claim.</p> <p>Anyway, is it cost effective for the NHS or insurance to pay for a treatment that reduces pain by an average 4%? I doubt that a drug that did that would make it to market, and I wouldn't pay for a pill that promised that, I would prefer a NSAID that has a clinically significant effect (defined as greater than 15 mm on a 100 mm VAS) if memory serves), that is available over the counter for a few cents that anyone can afford and that has few side effects if used as directed for a short period. </p> <p>I originally described massage as "essentially" a placebo, because it does have some physiological effects, as does acupuncture. It can reduce tension and lead to symptomatic relief, but it isn't going to cure a frozen shoulder or a prolapsed vertebra, whereas a steroid injection or surgery can.</p> <blockquote><p>“That’s why.” sounds pretty definitive to me; I can almost hear an exclamation point at the end there.</p></blockquote> <p>I think I can pretty definitively describe massage as a placebo treatment for objective physiological conditions as compared to surgery or a steroid injection. Describing it as a placebo for muscular tension or as a palliative treatment for pain is more problematic.</p> <p>Is insulin for type 1 diabetes and thyroid replacement therapy for hypothyroidism placebos, because they don't treat the underlying cause? Clearly not, because they have a clear and measurable and clinically significant physiological effect. Similarly pain medication that has a clear physiological and clinically significant effect is not a placebo by any definition of the word.</p> <blockquote><p>we should aspire to achieve some clarity and organization in our presentations.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh the irony.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285878&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6Nk_4wWscPrPEQFPMets-Y4WwAWyyfrBXj9tp2mSBoI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285878">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285879" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424949309"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I think Mr “Why Don’t You Define Placebo” Gaist should be a little embarrassed about the inconsistency of his demands.</p></blockquote> <p>What inconsistency? Spell it out rather than insinuate. You're the one who called a tried-and-true treatment (steroid injections for frozen shoulder) as placebo. I pointed it out to you, and when you replied to that "OK, got it.", I assumed you had - in fact - actually got it and had just typed placebo erroneously in haste and were just too insecure to actually acknowledge the error. But obviously not. And for some reason it took you this long to whine and insinuate about it.</p> <p>So, be specific. In your own words, define what a placebo is. Something "done to please the patient" like you explained it in #66 is not placebo like the rest of us understand it. If I get a serious bacterial infection I'm expecting the doctor to prescribe me antibiotics unless (s)he has a better idea. Me wanting it doesn't make it placebo. Me asking to get malaria medicine for a 2-month hike in India wasn't me asking for a placebo either, so your "definition", such as it is, is faulty.</p> <p>Because it is <i>your</i> definition that differs from everybody elses. And yes, surgery can have a poweful placebo effect (and indeed, there have been clinical trials about mock surgery that demonstrated improvement), it doesn't mean surgery <b>is only placebo. Trying to use the quote in your defense is both sad and weak.</b></p> <p>And while you're at it, define zazebo in your own words too. How does it differ from whatever it is you call placebo?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285879&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g7Lpl3jb9RbInZKJlyKV5_HSlcwB-Aq1N0oIE0gD054"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285879">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285880" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424949338"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>only the is should have been in bold.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285880&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YVgr5ZHIJUZ2JuBiLoZVPwfBF6ufhHBOOx-xJ4q-XyY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285880">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285881" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424949767"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>maybe K needs to spend some time thinking through whatever he thinks he thinks</p></blockquote> <p>Project much?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285881&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L7VSAxy7YpVKwkXXqNKqmXzqXnQ-2eSxQS8nlMOp610"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285881">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285882" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424955636"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My favorite example of surgery as a placebo, which I have mentioned here more than once before, is <a href="http://www.ccjm.org/content/70/5/401.long">this study</a> which is often cited as evidence that sham knee surgery (making an incision and then simply sewing it back up) is as effective as lavage (washing out the joint) and debridement (basically scraping out the joint), thus demonstrating the awesome power of the placebo. </p> <p>However:</p> <blockquote><p>The authors found that all three treatment groups fared equally: each reported subjective symptomatic relief, but no objective improvement in function was noted in any of the groups.</p></blockquote> <p>In other words, none of these interventions had any objective effect on knee function, only on subjective assessment of pain, and we don't even know if patients given no treatment at all might have reported a similar reduction in pain over time, since the study lacked a no treatment group. The placebo wasn't awesome at all, it was as useless as the surgical interventions. I suspect that other studies that show a placebo rivals a conventional treatment merely show that the conventional treatment isn't much good.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285882&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gXn9SG-f3zzLW_eOMoXsvRxlHKfI7IcjdibKIXplGJM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 26 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285882">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285883" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425021979"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#97</p> <p>"No doubt you will accuse me of ‘filibustering’ again,"</p> <p>Finally got something right.</p> <p>"but you keep attempting to force me to give a yes/no answer to questions that require a more complex response."</p> <p>My observation is that for you, everything does. </p> <p>The question was whether *you* were no longer using the criterion "does not treat underlying condition" to characterize something as a placebo, which you have been doing. No long rambling discourse is necessary to answer that; you just have to tell us what you've decided.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285883&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3CHlMJ3hzOLJONKOyShaFvUOgW65todfZpBOtb8M6gA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285883">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285884" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425022506"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#101</p> <p>Here I think we see why Krebiozen filibusters so much-- when he doesn't, his faulty reasoning is glaringly evident. Let me quote from the study referenced:</p> <p>"These data suggest that the benefits of arthroscopy for the treatment of osteoarthritis of the knee is to provide subjective pain relief, and that the means by which arthroscopy provides this benefit is via a placebo effect."</p> <p>And the Cleveland Clinic discussion:</p> <p>"The authors conclude that “if the efficacy of<br /> arthroscopic lavage or debridement in<br /> patients with osteoarthritis of the knee is no<br /> greater than that of placebo surgery, the billions of dollars spent on such procedures<br /> annually might be put to better use.”</p> <p>Well, maybe. When doctors treat arthritis, they are attempting, foremost, to offer subjective improvement. After all, the reason<br /> patients come to them is because of a subjective complaint: pain. If arthroscopy offers subjective improvement, regardless of mechanism, it can be deemed successful.<br /> Accordingly, one should state that funds<br /> may be put to better use only if there is a<br /> cheaper means to achieve that benefit, but<br /> the authors did not show this. After all, a<br /> placebo benefit is still a benefit. The obvious<br /> question is whether this benefit could be<br /> attained at lower cost and with lower risk."</p> <p>end CC quote.</p> <p>Begin filibuster.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285884&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vk1bc1IOuxniKaPMqDJtL4gzbdKgZdwGzZdBQ9SgpSs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285884">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285885" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425023700"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Begin End filibuster.</p> <p>Fixed that for you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285885&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-v7v3PKXGLsXhv_505Mbb6X5NyUPdtOtr6y5gNqhTpU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285885">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285886" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425028367"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <blockquote><p>The question was whether *you* were no longer using the criterion “does not treat underlying condition” to characterize something as a placebo, which you have been doing. No long rambling discourse is necessary to answer that; you just have to tell us what you’ve decided.</p></blockquote> <p>You talk of my "oft-repeated requirement that the treatment must affect the underlying condition"; do remind me, where have I made this claim even once? There are many non-placebo interventions that do not treat the underlying condition. It depends on the context, as I explained. </p> <blockquote><p>Here I think we see why Krebiozen filibusters so much– when he doesn’t, his faulty reasoning is glaringly evident. </p></blockquote> <p>What faulty reasoning? Please spell out precisely where my reasoning is faulty so I can correct it. </p> <p>There was no improvement in knee function. Pain improved by about 15 mm on a 100 mm VAS (Figure 1), which is barely clinically significant*, and there was no 'no treatment' group so we don't know if that reduction in pain might have happened without any surgery at all. This is hardly a triumph for the mighty placebo effect, is it?</p> <p>Are you seriously suggesting that we should use sham knee surgery as a treatment for osteoarthritis? Wouldn't a topical NSAID costing a few cents, <a href="http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band155/b155-3.html">which gives an additional 15 mm improvement over and above placebo effects for knee osteoarthritis</a>, be more cost effective than a general anesthetic and all the other expenses knee surgery entails?</p> <p>* An improvement of 10-20 mm on a VAS <b>as compared to a placebo</b> <a href="http://updates.pain-topics.org/2009/11/how-much-relief-from-chronic-pain-is.html">is usually considered clinically significant</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285886&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mtDjhWrk8_Xu_YOFZxnnfDRwg6062tVpiGoTiIkcwrQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285886">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285887" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425030181"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm amused by zebra insisting on a simple answer to the definition of a placebo, and when, if ever, placebos should be prescribed. The amount of discussion and argument that has been published in the medical literature on the subject is enough to make my 'filibustering' (I cringe every time I see him misuse the word) look like a mere drop in the ocean. </p> <p>I'm also amused that my objection to the use of placebos is apparently the result of "faulty reasoning". <a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/medical-ethics/code-medical-ethics/opinion8083.page">The use of placebos without patient knowledge and consent is prohibited by the AMA</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>In the clinical setting, the use of a placebo without the patient’s knowledge may undermine trust, compromise the patient-physician relationship, and result in medical harm to the patient. Physicians may use placebos for diagnosis or treatment only if the patient is informed of and agrees to its use. </p></blockquote> <p>I guess the AMA suffers from faulty reasoning too. At least I'm in good company.</p> <p>I am thoroughly enjoying the spectacle of zebra, yet again, trying to teach people about a subject he clearly has no knowledge of whatsoever.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285887&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zln_CFfBbOUG9QggSzXTy9oLTJgMgaEghCKdTX3T5gE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285887">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285888" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425052601"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I am thoroughly enjoying the spectacle of zebra, yet again, trying to teach people about a subject he clearly has no knowledge of whatsoever.</p></blockquote> <p>I think zebra is about as entertaining as watching a kid having temper tantrum in slow motion. The facial contortions are sort of silly, but you can't shake that nagging feeling that it's only going nowhere, and it's not even getting there any time soon.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285888&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NAFt9hVcXgyJ6hR0EAZyUnIgEG3OtK-WjMy20679-gY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 27 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285888">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285889" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425167589"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>end CC quote</p></blockquote> <p>It's positively darling that – in addition to being too lazy to even <i>try</i> to format its copypasta – Z. completely skips over the part where there was at least a functional <i>rationale</i> for the procedure (see also <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010873/">here</a>).</p> <p>How any of this actually bears on the faux timelessness that is a hallmark of acupuncture is anyone's guess. Arthroscopy for OA is no better than placebo? OK, <i>it's no longer recommended</i>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285889&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OqLimBnfXbaUwbI8WiLjwdnCOFQ8GsCgEYeWhZmeY9s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 28 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285889">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285890" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1425320042"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't know why it took so long for this to occur to me, but Z. has a certain... <i>dental student</i> feel to it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285890&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="e2Y4H0jW6a71Lyhqn_9EL5vnjrEkcg_Ds9G9JdgU83w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 02 Mar 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285890">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285891" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1428925710"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was going to post this to something more recent, but felt that it should be kept on-topic:</p> <p>Over the weekend I had dinner with my mom, and she told me she had tried actupuncture for the first time last week during physical therapy. She has a suspected small muscle tear in her shoulder, as far as I know they haven't done any imaging to confirm the injury (she is still in the requisite "try some PT and hope it goes away" stage of treament). Anyway, her physical therapist recommended acupuncture and she obviously went for it. Mom claims it relaxed her muscles where PT hadn't been able to for weeks and gave her 50% more range of motion than she had before.</p> <p>As a regular reader of this blog, I was disappointed to hear that she went down that road. I tried to gently point out to her that there's no evidence that acupuncture is anything more than theatrical placebo, but her response was (unsurprisingly) that it worked for her and "even if it's a placebo, if it fixes my arm then sign me up!". I also tried pointing out that she had already had her normal physical therapy prior to her acupuncture session, which was almost certainly skewing her perception, but she shrugged it off. </p> <p>Apparently, my mom was told that the "micro-trauma" of the needles stimulates blood flow to the poked muscle tissues, which relaxes them and encourages healing in these sorts of injuries. IANAD, so could someone more knowledgeable let me know if there's *any* merit to the idea? I suspect someone is feeding my mother BS, and I really don't appreciate it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285891&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="14aPnia8xWvzLPAe6noWe4tduG5FzTx6jpimVdbil3k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shadowflash (not verified)</span> on 13 Apr 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1285891">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2015/02/17/psychological-correlates-of-the-placebo-that-is-acupuncture%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 17 Feb 2015 02:02:29 +0000 oracknows 21990 at https://scienceblogs.com Adventures in bad veterinary medicine reported by the local media, year end edition https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/30/adventures-in-bad-veterinary-medicine-reported-by-the-local-media-year-end-edition <span>Adventures in bad veterinary medicine reported by the local media, year end edition</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><div align="center"> <a href="/files/insolence/files/2014/12/dog-acupuncture.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2014/12/dog-acupuncture-450x299.jpg" alt="dog-acupuncture" width="450" height="299" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-9232" /></a> </div> <p>Ever since moving back to the Detroit area nearly seven years ago, one thing I've noticed is a propensity for our local news outlets to go full pseudoscience from time to time. I'm not sure why, other than perhaps that it attracts eyeballs to the screen, but, in reality, most of these plunges into pseudoscience and quackery are so poorly done that I find it hard to believe that even believers find them interesting. For example, back in 2008, I discussed a particularly dumb story aired by our local NBC affiliate WDIV entitled <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080803022919/http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/15340088/index.html?">Orbs: Myth or Real?</a>, which, not having started my new job yet, I <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/02/22/your-friday-dose-of-woo-orbs-invade-the/">gleefully deconstructed at the time</a>. For those of you who aren't familiar with "spirit orbs," which are claimed to be the spirits of the dead but almost always represent photography artifacts, such as lens flare, dust on the lens catching light, or similar things that can lead to light blobs showing up on photos.</p> <p>Also at the time, an investigative reporter named Steve Wilson was still spreading antivaccine mercury militia pseudoscience through the local ABC affiliate WXYZ, leading me to wonder whether he was a a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/07/10/investigative-reporter-steve-wilson-of-w/">legitimate investigative reporter or an antivaccine propagandist</a>. Indeed, his antivaccine propaganda dressed up as news reports was spreading to a national audience, thanks to <a href="http://www.ageofautism.com/2008/07/cadillac-autism.html" rel="nofollow">Age of Autism</a> and other antivaccine groups. Actually, he was both. When it came to politics and corruption, he was a decent investigative reporter; indeed, his exposes of our utterly corrupt former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick's were, in retrospect, prescient, and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/02/national/02detroit.html">provoked Kilpatrick to take his revenge</a>. When it came to vaccines, he had completely swallowed the Kool Aid that claims that mercury in vaccines caused an autism epidemic. I'm not sure if it was the antivaccine reporting or other issues, but Wilson's contract was, fortunately, not renewed in in 2010.</p> <!--more--><p>In any case, given the record of local news stations when it comes to credulously reporting medical pseudoscience (and pseudoscience in general), I would normally not be surprised to see a report on a local station in which quackery is presented as real medicine. (Heck, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/06/21/adventures-in-bad-veterinary-medicine-reported-by-the-local-media/">I deconstructed just such a story a year and a half ago</a>.) I was more surprised (but probably shouldn't have been) to see such a report in our local newspaper, the <em>Detroit Free Press</em> complete with a video for the online story. The story is by Jennifer Dixon and is entitled <a href="http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2014/12/29/veterinary-medicine-chiropractic-accupuncture/20982377/">Veterinarian offers alternative approach to healing</a>. The story is even <a href="http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/life/family/2014/12/29/veterinary-medicine-chiropractic-accupuncture/20992349/">showing up in statewide media</a>. Ms. Dixon is an investigative reporter, but in this case hers was a massive fail to do even the most basic investigation, so much so that one wonders if we have another Steve Wilson in the making.</p> <p>Basically, it's so credulous that it might as well be an advertisement for a veterinarian named Dr. Loren Weaver, who subjects animals to a variety of nonsensical treatments:</p> <div align="center"> <object id="flashObj" width="480" height="270" classid="clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,47,0"><param name="movie" value="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1&amp;isUI=1" /><param name="bgcolor" value="#FFFFFF" /><param name="flashVars" value="videoId=3960105655001&amp;playerID=1659454159001&amp;playerKey=AQ~~,AAAACEbKtKE~,hMlwOmT8XTDrtff1uzYD3M5bENmR4RfZ&amp;domain=embed&amp;dynamicStreaming=true" /><param name="base" value="http://admin.brightcove.com" /><param name="seamlesstabbing" value="false" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="swLiveConnect" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed src="http://c.brightcove.com/services/viewer/federated_f9?isVid=1&amp;isUI=1" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" flashvars="videoId=3960105655001&amp;playerID=1659454159001&amp;playerKey=AQ~~,AAAACEbKtKE~,hMlwOmT8XTDrtff1uzYD3M5bENmR4RfZ&amp;domain=embed&amp;dynamicStreaming=true" base="http://admin.brightcove.com" name="flashObj" width="480" height="270" seamlesstabbing="false" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" swliveconnect="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"></embed></object></div> <p>The video is painful to watch, so steeped in mystical woo is it. It's hard to believe that this sort of rot made it even on the air even from a local news station, but it did. The <a href="http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2014/12/29/veterinary-medicine-chiropractic-accupuncture/20982377/">text begins</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> Dr. Loren Weaver practices "energy medicine" on dogs, horses and the occasional cat.</p> <p>"There's a big transfer of energy from me to the dogs, from the dogs to me, me to the horses and the horses back to me. That's what makes this work is that transfer of energy," the veterinarian said. "That's what I pass through with my hands."</p> <p>He said that energy, or Chi, is carried through 12 meridians, or channels, in the body.</p> <p>"I don't ask someone to believe it exists," he said. "If you let me work on your animal, I can show you how it works."</p> <p>His patients' owners are believers. </p></blockquote> <p>Let's get one thing straight right here, right now. "Energy medicine" is quackery. It's mystical mumbo-jumbo with no basis in science. Reiki, for instance, the most common form of "energy medicine" is basically <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/11/11/reiki-propaganda-in-u-s-news-world-report/">faith healing</a> in which <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/09/11/why-reiki-masters-cant-lose/">Eastern mystical beliefs</a> replace Christian beliefs as the religious basis for belief that laying on hands can heal. It's "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/03/the-central-dogma-of-alternative-medicine/">The Secret</a>"-level <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/09/20/reiki-you-cant-always-get-what-you-want/">wishful thinking</a>, and, unfortunately, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/23/theres-no-woo-like-animal-woo/">reiki for Fido</a> is becoming more common.</p> <p>Of course, what Weaver describes as his "energy medicine" doesn't sound like reiki. He doesn't invoke the "universal source" as the source of the healing energy but rather seems to be claiming that he can manipulate animals' "energy fields." That sounds a lot more like "healing touch" (HT) or "therapeutic touch" (TT) another pseudoscientific mystical modality that is, unfortunately, all too commonly practiced in hospitals and is equally ridiculous as reiki. I like to say that it's so ridiculous that even an 11-year-old girl <a href="http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=187390">could design a controlled study</a> that demonstrated that TT practitioners cannot even sense a human "energy field," much less manipulate one. This is not surprising, given that what TT practitioners mean by "energy" and what scientists mean by "energy" (to put it simply, the <a href="http://physics.about.com/od/glossary/g/energy.htm">capacity of a physical system to perform work</a>) are not even related by coincidence. Even with the most sophisticated and sensitive instruments, science has never been able to find anything like these "energy fields" around humans or animals that can be manipulated in the way that people like Dr. Weaver claim. Basically, energy medicine is prescientific vitalism infused with a heavy dose of religion. That is why I consider it quackery.</p> <p>In any case, it turns out that Dr. Weaver is a veterinarian and a chiropractor. As I and others have pointed out before, basically any form of alternative medicine to which humans are subjected is also used in animals because, well, I guess we humans can't help ourselves. We have to subject our furry, feathered, and scaly friends to the same sort of prescientific and pseudoscientific nonsense that we subject ourselves to. Hence, we see travesties, such as <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/people-encouraging-turtle-agony/">turtles</a> and <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-odds-and-ends/">owls</a> getting needles stuck into them and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/07/11/bringing-a-whole-new-meaning-to-the-term-chiroquacktic/">ducks</a> and <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-scope-of-practice/">Basset hounds</a> having their spines adjusted. Not surprisingly, Dr. Weaver is heavily into both chiropractic (being a chiropractic veterinarian) and acupuncture, both of which are on full display in this story.</p> <p>Weaver even goes full <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_David_Palmer">Palmer</a> on us and talks about the "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_intelligence">innate intelligence</a>" (although he doesn't call it that) flowing from the brain through the nervous system and how anything impeding that flow will cause problems. Meanwhile, we are treated to images of Weaver doing spine adjustments on dogs, who most definitely do not appear to be enjoying it, as at least one of them has to be held and jerks as if in pain when Weaver does a lower spinal adjustment. One dog, a Dachsund named Rocky, is shown trying to bite Weaver as he adjusts his spine, all while his owner exults about how fantastic Rocky is doing for his slipped disc ever since Dr. Weaver started treating him. Of course, in the case of actual pathology, such as a disc problem, it is possible that spinal manipulation might be of some benefit, or, as is the case in humans, the course could be resolution in many cases. After all, from what I've observed we apear not to operate on herniated discs nearly as often as we used to.</p> <p>Later in the video, Weaver is shown sticking needles into dogs, most of whom most definitely appear not to be liking it at all, as they all flinched as the needles were placed and had to be held to keep from biting at them. Meanwhile, he pontificates on traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) and how TCM teaches that disease is due to "blockages" of qi that can be resolved using acupuncture. Doesn't Weaver know that TCM is <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/retconning-traditional-chinese-medicine/">a retconning of the actual history of Chinese folk medicine</a> perpetrated by Chairman Mao Zedong back in the 1950s? Apparently not:</p> <blockquote><p> Weaver has been a veterinarian for 34 years and has been practicing acupuncture and chiropractic medicine for the last 26 years. He was first exposed to acupuncture while living in Kenya and saw how it helped horses in pain.</p> <p>"It worked, and the horses relaxed and felt better," Weaver said. When he returned to the U.S., he began studying acupuncture, which he uses for pain relief and back problems. He then immersed himself in chiropractic medicine. The son of a farmer who saw a chiropractor for his back, Weaver said he was exposed to chiropractic medicine as a child.</p> <p>"When I started, no one was doing chiropractic," Weaver said. </p></blockquote> <p>How does he know it helped? Proponents of alternative medicine will claim that quackery like acupuncture "works" in animals because it couldn't possibly be due to placebo effects, but they are only sort of correct. The reason is that the only way we can know what animals are feeling is through the observations of humans, who interpret those observations as the animal either being in pain or getting better. Thus, <a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/">placebo-like effects can occur in animals</a>, but in reality they are a result of a change in perception of the animal's condition by the owners, who expect results and, after treatment, look for results. If they believe acupuncture will work, often they report results. It's difficult enough to quantify pain reliably in humans; in animals, it's even harder. Add to that the tendency of most conditions to regress to the mean or to slowly improve, and, if the acupuncture or chiropractic adjustment is performed as improvement is beginning or around the time when the symptoms are at their worst (which is often the time when treatment will be sought), then it can appear that the treatment "worked." There appears to be a phenomenon in veterinary medicine known as <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/11/caregiver-placebo-effects-new-study-shows-that-owners-and-vets-often-believe-an-ineffective-therapy-is-working-when-it-isnt/">caregiver placebo effects</a>, which appears to be a <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2014/03/clever-new-study-illustrates-the-improtance-of-placebo-controls-in-veterinary-clinical-studies/">real phenomenon</a>. Indeed, frequently, there is <a href="http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2013/02/measuring-arthritis-pain-in-dogs-are-owner-surveys-as-good-as-force-plate-analysis/comment-page-1/">little or no correlation between owner-reported observations of animal pain and objective measures</a>.</p> <p>All of this explains why Dr. Weaver can have so many glowing testimonials about the efficacy of his methods, some of which are presented in this story. Unfortunately, our intrepid "investigative reporter" didn't actually investigate. Instead, she produced an advertisement for Dr. Weaver, chiropractic veterinary medicine, and the use of TCM in animals. I realize that local reporters are often assigned human interest stories like this. People love their pets, and the story of an appealing, warm and cuddly vet who seems to be "working miracles" is a very tempting story to do. Everybody loves a story like this, particularly animal lovers, except, of course, "nasty" buzzkill skeptics like myself who, upon seeing a story like this, can't help but look deeper.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Tue, 12/30/2014 - 03:21</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/popular-culture" hreflang="en">Popular Culture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/acupuncture" hreflang="en">acupuncture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/chiropractic" hreflang="en">chiropractic</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/free-press" hreflang="en">Free Press</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/jennifer-dixon" hreflang="en">Jennifer Dixon</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/loren-weaver" hreflang="en">Loren Weaver</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/steve-wilson" hreflang="en">Steve Wilson</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/traditional-chinese-medicine" hreflang="en">traditional Chinese medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/veterinarian" hreflang="en">veterinarian</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/veterinary" hreflang="en">veterinary</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279111" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419929822"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That poor dog!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279111&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aC-XLwmrMDZ8O9qn_BnPqpSpIoLlCaCCxp7cRivoWNk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">palindrom (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279111">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279112" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419930556"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Indeed, poor dog. I can only hope mr. Weaver gets bitten a lot. Perhaps trying his quackery on something really dangerous, like a crocodile, or an aligator.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279112&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4rnw93P_2IlUwpkoODwitQaRVweqbYenew-W16DyBGo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Renate (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279112">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279113" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419932486"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Not gonna lie, provided she wasn't actually sick, I'd pay good money to have some quack TRY to try chiropractic on my cat, Daisy. Just for the laugh.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279113&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fApgnwckAepUsYA-qk5_yIg7v8sV-g6y8QF7eUjyzXE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Quiet Lurker (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279113">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279114" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419933554"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm imagining a woo-bent practitioner attempting chiro or acupuncture on my large and rather self-possessed cat.</p> <p>At any rate, web woo-meisters know that they can inveigle money due to pet owner's fears and quite a few sites manage this well. "Healthy pet food" is all the rage. Altho' I notice that Mercola still lists a pet section at his store, Null and Adams have less than they did before</p> <p>My absolute worst tale of woo-driven nonsense for pets goes back about 10 years:<br /> Null instructs his audience about long-lived cats of dogs of his own, his aunt and rural folk he visited in Italy and France. 25 year old dogs and 30 year old cats are common- all of which are VEGANS.. These animals are incredibly healthy and active, despite their age.</p> <p>Well, after a while, someone must have informed him that cats are obligate carnivores and can't survive on tofu. So his tales focused on dog vegans at first and SLOWLY, he added tales of ancient but lively cats who ate only raw fish or lived entirely as hunters out of doors eating 'palm rats' ( at his estate). OBVIOUSLY these fortunate creatures enjoyed only the best supplements and dry, powdered vegetables in their daily smoothies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279114&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Bx59JQcMeFJydpmDkknK5WjHFlDrdrSSiF4qV_IlMsA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279114">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279115" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419934844"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This isn't a novel objection, which is why, in quite a few acupuncture studies in animals published in recent years, the observers of symptoms and behaviors are blinded to the treatment. (At least one that used pet dogs also concealed treatment allocation from owners.) Thus you would have positive results for acupuncture rejected out of hand as Placebo even when there is a control group (either sham or no acupuncture) and observers are blinded - yet the vast majority of animal studies relating to current or potential conventional treatments do not blind observers, and neither you nor anyone else in the field suggests that all those thousands of studies could be automatically presumed worthless. What matters therefore, in judging whether a scientific publication counts as Science or not, is not the quality of the methodology, but whether those conducting the study have the Right beliefs and get the Right answers. </p> <p>That is not a methodological process; it's a religion, the religion of scientism. Notably, it's a religion with multiple sects, because there are plenty of professional scientists in China, and apparently also Italy and South America, who would assure you that they are devoted to the primacy of Science as a source of knowledge, and yet think it is okay for science to be used to investigate forms of treatment invented in China. You would like the small group of American authorities who share your beliefs to be able to prescribe the proper Scientific values for believers worldwide, much as African Catholics for centuries could expect to be taking orders from leaders who were largely Italian and therefore reflected Italian cultural biases in the dogmas handed down. No foreigner who does the work to get a PhD is going to put up with that kind of attitude in the modern age - especially not when they notice that medicine in America is an entirely profit-driven and largely dysfunctional enterprise, which no foreigner in his right mind would want to emulate.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279115&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wrWZoZQ9S-DhgOwtk4lzCo_8ztzNDj8VAT6p8OwKGMw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jane (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279115">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279116" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419935267"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>* Pardonnez les typos, svp*</p> <p>pet OWNERS", cats AND dogs, OF his aunt</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279116&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ua94ZozhaV0BEaCdO55sZPxAzD1dicIxIArU0OGJqUI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279116">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279117" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419935361"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Weaver is shown sticking needles into dogs, most of whom most definitely appear not to be liking it at all, as they all flinched as the needles were placed and had to be held to keep from biting at them.</i></p> <p>It's good that the dogs are reacting normally to this kind of thing. That's evidence that they are smarter than their owners or Weaver. But it's unfortunate that they have such oblivious owners.</p> <p>Somewhat OT, but may help explain why Detroit media are so credulous about this kind of thing: I recently learned (via comments on another blog) that quackademic medicine at the University of Michigan is <a href="https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4msxws45jxqffv452dhyxped))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&amp;objectName=mcl-390-5">required by law</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>390.5 Board of regents; powers.<br /> Sec. 5.</p> <p>The regents shall have power to enact ordinances, by-laws and regulations for the government of the university; to elect a president, to fix, increase and reduce the regular number of professors and tutors, and to appoint the same, and to determine the amount of their salaries: Provided, That <b>there shall always be at least 1 professor of homeopathy in the department of medicine</b>. [Emphasis added]</p></blockquote> <p>To be fair, this provision cannot be blamed on any politician alive today: the statute in question was enacted in 1851.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279117&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="reQkrC7ir7S9HTouWktFc2xf3cwBjwgcSUy-7Gw4Zpc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279117">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279118" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419936112"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jane,</p> <p><i> in quite a few acupuncture studies in animals published in recent years, the observers of symptoms and behaviors are blinded to the treatment. (At least one that used pet dogs also concealed treatment allocation from owners.) Thus you would have positive results for acupuncture rejected out of hand as Placebo even when there is a control group (either sham or no acupuncture) and observers are blinded – yet the vast majority of animal studies relating to current or potential conventional treatments do not blind observers, and neither you nor anyone else in the field suggests that all those thousands of studies could be automatically presumed worthless. What matters therefore, in judging whether a scientific publication counts as Science or not, is not the quality of the methodology, but whether those conducting the study have the Right beliefs and get the Right answers. </i></p> <p>Sources? And what are they blinded against? Nothing? Knowing the animal received something, but not knowing what? What were the criteria for feeling better? You can't just throw out such an extreme statement regarding things known to be quackery, except now we're talking about animals, without backing it up.</p> <p>2) YES, in a sense, many studies can be dismissed based on the "right beliefs" or "right answers" from the get-go. The first thing an investigation should attain is scientific plausibility. All homeopathy studies, blinded or not, are BS based on simple physics and the nature of the dilutions they do. They have not met that basic requirement. So yes, if something believes chiropractic is going to cure cancer or prevent infection, I can effectively say on the basis of pure, objective known fact about the natural world, germ theory, etc, that they do NOT have the right "beliefs."</p> <p>Also, way to generalize the entire non-American world. You have no authority to speak on what they will or will not do based on what you find wrong with them American system. Your ethnocentrism is showing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279118&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="995JMk4rM47ooC465floQiIvsetDs4OVVA1nVpsTPps"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Quiet Lurker (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279118">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279119" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419937918"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ugh. The vet woo is everywhere here in SE Pennsylvania. The vet I've been using for over ten years recently hired a TCM practitioner, and the emergency vet in the area also has one on-staff. As I was waiting for my dog to see the oncologist, the woman next to me had an acupuncture appointment for her arthritic dog. It saddens me, but since Penn Vet (which rules around here) is actively promoting and graduating vets that practice this crap, it's inescapable.</p> <p>At my dog's first appointment pre-cancer surgery, the vet asked me if my dog was on any medicines or supplements. Nope. Then he asked me if she was on any homeopathic treatments. Well, she does drink water...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279119&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DxqxNync-_CImjaBmgTuPoouUKex3ai1DhYDYkhN7jQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">enkidu97 (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279119">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279120" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419938006"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>acupuncture for owls and chiropractic for ducks??</p> <p>I hope this "vet" has some idea of the differences between mammalian and avian anatomy.</p> <p>It seems to me that random deep pinpricks in a bird are going to pop into air-sacs, probably not good for their respiratory cycle. Of course humans too can get pneumothorax from a.p.</p> <p>And anyone who's eaten a duck [or chicken] would be aware that there will be no subluxations below the neck...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279120&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oxSxlD4vUWkS2zDiLxHpjIZYpgAb0ML-vO2oS4vr9SU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lkr (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279120">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279121" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419942226"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>lkr's comment brought up a hilarious vision of a shyster attempting acupuncture on a Canada goose. I would pay to see that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279121&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IfJzzNJKtVkS_n8brWnXx5GiXYXi6hLjzu2YL-oojac"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279121">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279122" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419943149"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jane, it's always a delight to read your breathless, pearl clutching missives. Could we have the links to these physics-altering studies? Now, you must forgive me, I have to get back to praying to St. Orac. "Our Doctor, who art in surgery, hallowed be thy name . . ."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279122&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QHGMTGngChd_SH82yyYOi8ZJSe6jJkYLiKeRyJwitdU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pareidolius (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279122">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279123" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419943219"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>This isn’t a novel objection, which is why, in quite a few acupuncture studies in animals published in recent years, the observers of symptoms and behaviors are blinded to the treatment. (At least one that used pet dogs also concealed treatment allocation from owners.)</p></blockquote> <p>Citations needed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279123&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3dbC_n-glq0-tRuTp1T_V7zN0iJbC7jPyS-DH2sB9Do"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279123">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279124" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419943329"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>acupuncture for owls and chiropractic for ducks??</p></blockquote> <p>To be fair, I don't think that this particular chiropractic veterinarian uses acupuncture on owls or adjusts ducks' spines. I simply included links to stories about dubious vets who actually do these things as examples of how we mistreat our animal friends in the name of woo.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279124&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rGo1EaWyurABoDe59a6K_w8XU9R3MfSM8ndLkrwewBM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279124">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279125" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419943958"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Our local zoo promoted acupuncture for a swan:<br /><a href="http://articles.philly.com/2013-09-29/news/42483802_1_animal-acupuncture-acupuncture-needles-healing">http://articles.philly.com/2013-09-29/news/42483802_1_animal-acupunctur…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279125&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KgytYQ4pREFOt839mBEa7lkFPxlWS5myAqYCfbk3aRg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">enkidu97 (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279125">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279126" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419947173"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>jane,</p> <blockquote><p>This isn’t a novel objection, which is why, in quite a few acupuncture studies in animals published in recent years, the observers of symptoms and behaviors are blinded to the treatment. (At least one that used pet dogs also concealed treatment allocation from owners.) Thus you would have positive results for acupuncture rejected out of hand as Placebo even when there is a control group (either sham or no acupuncture) and observers are blinded</p></blockquote> <p>How does that follow? Where does Orac say that any positive results would be rejected even if there is a control group and blinding? He suggested that placebo-like effects may explain how, "Dr. Weaver can have so many glowing testimonials about the efficacy of his methods". </p> <blockquote><p> – yet the vast majority of animal studies relating to current or potential conventional treatments do not blind observers,</p></blockquote> <p>On what basis do you make this statement? <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4048216/">This systematic review</a> found that 35% of studies in 31 systematic reviews of animal clinical trials reported blinding, and that, "blinding reduced effect sizes, especially where outcomes were subjective". That's hardly a vast majority that didn't use blinding. Even a brief look at the literature shows that this has been a concern in animal research for some time, just as it has in human research.</p> <blockquote><p>and neither you nor anyone else in the field suggests that all those thousands of studies could be automatically presumed worthless.</p></blockquote> <p>Not automatically worthless, but prone to bias, certainly, especially when outcomes are subjectively assessed. SBM gives weight to prior plausibility, of which acupuncture has very little. It doesn't dismiss implausible hypotheses out of hand, but when we see implausibility combined with very poor evidence as we do with acupuncture, it is sensible to be skeptical.</p> <blockquote><p>What matters therefore, in judging whether a scientific publication counts as Science or not, is not the quality of the methodology, but whether those conducting the study have the Right beliefs and get the Right answers.</p></blockquote> <p>You have an unusual was of using of "thus" and "therefore" when there is no logical link between your statements. I don't see how the trend towards using blinding in both human and animal studies as a means of reducing bias in clinical trials is evidence of bias against acupuncture.</p> <blockquote><p>That is not a methodological process; it’s a religion, the religion of scientism. </p></blockquote> <p>Eliminating bias and trying to get to the truth of a matter is not a hallmark of religion. Could it be that your accusations are due to your cherished beliefs being challenged? If so it seems to me that you are the one who is behaving like a religious zealot here.</p> <blockquote><p>Notably, it’s a religion with multiple sects, because there are plenty of professional scientists in China, and apparently also Italy and South America, who would assure you that they are devoted to the primacy of Science as a source of knowledge, and yet think it is okay for science to be used to investigate forms of treatment invented in China. </p></blockquote> <p>No one has suggested that it isn't OK for science to investigate anything. You just don't like <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16956145">the results now it has done so</a>. Are you seriously suggesting that the scientific method is intrinsically racist? Otherwise, isn't is racist to suggest that we shouldn't apply the same standards to Chinese medicine as we do to any other types of medicine?</p> <blockquote><p>You would like the small group of American authorities who share your beliefs to be able to prescribe the proper Scientific values for believers worldwide, much as African Catholics for centuries could expect to be taking orders from leaders who were largely Italian and therefore reflected Italian cultural biases in the dogmas handed down. No foreigner who does the work to get a PhD is going to put up with that kind of attitude in the modern age – especially not when they notice that medicine in America is an entirely profit-driven and largely dysfunctional enterprise, which no foreigner in his right mind would want to emulate.</p></blockquote> <p>What an extraordinary statement. How does the profit-driven nature of medicine in America affect research in the UK, where the systematic review I linked to above was carried out? The whole point of SBM is that there is no dogma, everything is based on what scientific evidence, including current scientific knowledge, supports a hypothesis. I find it amusing that you complain about bias in a system that is designed to eliminate it, merely on the basis that your beliefs are challenged by the results.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279126&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cACCfEU1WZiBwQoRUFw5xVY9QKKyxOcTyprzLTRH0tI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279126">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279127" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419947689"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If I was an enterprising skeptic, I'd create an organization for the protection of animals from quacks because sometimes people seem to care about animals more than they do about humans. </p> <p>Either that, or I'd sic PETA and Temple Grandin on them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279127&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vaZVjUh25bxvBS7xsY_jhSIkPzpCNLt0fw1g3n00sG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279127">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279128" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419949895"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh dear. Acupuncture for animals makes me mad at their owners and vet and sorry for poor pets.<br /> Now, I regularly stick one big needle in my cat - but that's a needle connected to a drip with saline solution, which has been keeping her alive and in good shape for the last 4 years. And I would give a lot to be able to stop doing it. But I know it works. And my cat graciously allows me to do it. As for acupuncture - no, never.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279128&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PoiGFYXByT9Hhf4shAr1ki8H8q4-DFO6-2tUpZVlC-A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alia (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279128">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279129" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419950903"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>there will be no subluxations below the neck</i></p> <p>You are too optimistic. Chiropractors happily realign the fused bones of the skull. They find misalignments in the sacroiliac joint. The fusion of a bird's spine will present no obstacle.<br /> Also, look at all those extra cervical vertebrae where things can go wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279129&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mqLRk3E7fYGxL4bnVLg5yIBeVbNUY7ybdb1kfziFma0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279129">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279130" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419951169"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Jane, [...] Sources?</p></blockquote> <p>Heh. I just spent 2.5 hours back and forth on public transit to a cardio appointment that I learned had been rescheduled <i>again</i> without a phone call, and I needed a chuckle.</p> <p>Now you can just take your religion of Citationism and put it where the vital energy don't flow, buster.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279130&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o-yGGXM6hrZboZ2e7RKneeNkQqIXpx-Pg_91uZbHxSI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279130">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279131" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419952247"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>scientism</p></blockquote> <p>LedgerJokerAndHereWeGo.gif</p> <p>Honestly, this is a tiring and pointless form of reducing an idea to a hollow talking point. Stop doing it, for everyone's sake.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279131&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cr3lJO755a64Q4jL8pULct2ewAXcE0HOcdYISzy2xpQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Chan Kobun, the Ghost-Who-Waddles">Chan Kobun, th… (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279131">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279132" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419952553"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As a veterinarian, let me just say "AAAARRRGGGGGHHHHHH!" Dang, I hate this! And I see it creeping into my profession despite my best efforts. And I might add, PeTA is the last bunch of misanthropes (yes, they hate people too) that I would want taking care of animals.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279132&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eTIWrekj3iEApTeCLXsP4lWqNbSvva8o9KUaa5NnNFw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Janet (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279132">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279133" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419953548"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Luckily, my own creature's doctor ( &amp; associates) seem woo-free- altho' the owner/ head doc is hippie-ish looking.. They actually prescribe packaged cat food ( for IBS)!</p> <p> I should know I spent more than an hour there yesterday ( only an annual check ) I usually don't mind a wait HOWEVER a cat with ( possibly) neurological issues was crying plaintively throughout which was distressing to me.<br /> I didn't like what her person told me about her symptoms- not holding head straight, not walking normally.</p> <p>AND Alia: I did sub-q also for another cat.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279133&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lmTfwOrhcc8ffo0YpdxZmaXy9U_d8ZJpFLv0Op77Q-g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279133">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279134" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419953680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Narad:</p> <p>And I hope your appt was only a check as well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279134&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1-pw-TnMs0igPbcbSdu4DBaCLXVLKx27TCeiSSWWAWg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279134">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279135" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419960816"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sometimes when I verbally admonish my black Labrador for bad behavior, she responds by running feverishly in tight circles, emitting snuffing noises or barks. This may go on for thirty seconds or more.</p> <p>Some might say I am passing chi to the animal through an unknown meridian. But because I'm a devout member of the religious sect of Scientism, I prefer to believe the alternate explanation - that the dog is nuts.*</p> <p>*most appropriately, her name is Patience.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279135&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rFIEiu4fj1Ff2qyq6NragHHem-bFTeo_avAlPS8iRSU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279135">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279136" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419960858"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>And I hope your appt was only a check as well.</p></blockquote> <p>Routine annual visit, thanks. I was an every-six-monther for a while. I <i>was</i> out $5 for escapade, though, and I had a specific question I wanted to ask, <i>and</i> some guy butted in while I was talking with the sympathetic front desk and flatly stated that he had "left me a voicemail" about the second rescheduling,* and it was in the teens outside, and the bus/train combo had been going down with <b>zero</b> wait time on the first three legs and only four minutes for the final one – not to mention no crowding – until being spoiled by the last bus's horn inexplicably getting stuck in the "honk" position, leading to everyone being dumped on the street, and I may have discovered that I forgot about a load of laundry downstairs two weeks ago, meaning that 80% of my socks are long gone, but at least it may have helped me reset my sleep schedule.</p> <p>* I have an answering machine, not "voice mail." I <b>also</b> still had the first rescheduling call <i>still on it</i>. So... cram it, clownie.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279136&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RCcyFWnjOBlUCnDEr5V-a2uU1sQ8TVbnQ41cvQ7ZZ9Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279136">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279137" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419973618"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This year Mr Woo decided that I *still* was not spending enough time outside (vitamin D is an anti inflammatory, etc.), so when Fyre's breeders offered us a rejected colt and his mother (depending on formula make-up, foals have a very similar feeding schedule to human infants in the beginning and weigh a little over ten times as much as a guess). Since he hasn't had normal horse interaction, this has been an adventure of sorts (I am better with smaller mammals and hatchlings).</p> <p>Today Baby (Shadow) was startled by a squirrel running up a hedge, went tearing across the back yard and ended up almost on his back my the time he was done sliding and pin-wheeling. And that was with me, the closest thing he probably considers a momma...</p> <p>I am trying to imagine how he would react to acupuncture. He had joint ill (infection acquired at birth went septic and settled in his joints, possibly in part because of a lack of adequate colostrum) and received regular antibiotic shots for an extended length of time. It didn't take long until the "Honest, this will hurt me more than it hurts you" was a very honest statement.</p> <p>I like to believe I am practical when assessing any animal for pain (i.e., dogs in distress pant heavily, looking for restlessness, limping, etc., etc.). It is too easy to be crazy about animals, anthropomorphize them and even assume the big brown eyes are hurting or hungry when really they just want to figure out how to get your sandwich.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279137&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y2-59ugoCAHAom9D0JFXaH1zHkglfwta4h_7onowtyM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279137">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279138" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419973713"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>*by the time.</p> <p>Old eyes...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279138&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gSPsOO54jl2ajvUcfb-cslnaqOn-ZUwBAwex5Ad7mxE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279138">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279139" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1419976324"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Dangerous Bacon:</p> <p>Best laugh I've had all day. I almost broke Rule #1! ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279139&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HP5MbcwszWpHqOwoSBHsVLvGtSxRii-b4gXIdTbebdA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 30 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279139">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279140" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420010408"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Interestingly, I think I inadvertently discovered a way of evaluating these things without confirmation bias. I spent the last few months clicker training my cat, mostly teaching him to follow me around and be less skittish. I thought it was having an effect, but I wasn't certain. I dropped him off at our usual boarding place over Christmas, where he was familiar to everyone there. Several people described him as a "sweetheart", and talked about how friendly he was. Mind you, he was already quite easygoing to begin with.</p> <p>It seems the best way to test a veterinary method is to have an outside observer who isn't aware of what's been done with the animal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279140&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_vF-6YqmCL9omDcbQa_K_iwCDrBZJDBX5RDEqV5krcI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279140">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279141" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420010476"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A dear friend of mine is a vet. She says that all dachshunds are grumpy, because they all have bad backs.</p> <p>No doggy-chiro from her though - least woo-ish person I know!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279141&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mbDY4I-gG5ZBvijM0XHKc9ifVfIDpTdKEWsWQRmX2L8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BoxTurtle (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279141">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279142" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420013439"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Porcupines are sometimes kept as pets. That would be an interesting match up: Weaver and his needles against a porcupine and its quills.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279142&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SFq6HSPhwKCNUdYWDROjmdS4jGpjtGAu8NNWYLodEto"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris Hickie (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279142">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279143" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420015912"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Speaking about acupuncture - my mother-in-law called me today to ask me what I think about acupuncture. My father-in-law is in pain, the source has not been diagnosed so far (but he has some neurological problems, so that might be connected) and she wanted to get him off NSAIDs. I told her all I know, hopefully this time she will heed my advice - for a retired pharmacist she is awfully woo-prone: chiropractors, homeopaths, energy healing, dietary supplements, you name it. My father-in-law's condition is already bad, I don't want him to undergo any unnecessary pseudo-treatment, especially one so invasive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279143&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ltGQbSnSnMDUO2mkSfiyRjB6_6c46nby5ArsrKHRLu0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alia (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279143">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279144" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420022183"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>She says that all dachshunds are grumpy, because they all have bad backs.</i></p> <p>Maybe it's because they're German? Every English bulldog I've ever met has back problems as well, but remain even-tempered. Must be that famous British stiff upper lip.</p> <p> (On the other hand, when Germans get grumpy they tend to invade their neighbors).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279144&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="H_C_cPQMBQQ6Uf1aKZ0ej4ToeeIV6kvZVFgbcrpIviw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279144">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279145" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420022856"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Will have to talk to my sister the vet about pet woo. I object to people needlessly putting their pets through stress and pain for placebo (at best) affects but have come to understand that vet medicine doesn't offer much in some cases (such a cancer) so I can understand the owners falling for it. With these sorts of credulous reporting more people unfortunately will also fall for it. Good luck Mrs. Woo with your foal, I haven't bottle raised a foal but have done several calves. Included in that was one who was orphaned shortly after birth. Their general problem seems to be that they begin to think you are part of the herd (momma) and they forget they outweigh you by a lot. They are very friendly but their normal behaviors (head butting) can be quite painful as I have been literally knocked off my feet by 'playful' behavior. Good luck to you!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279145&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S8sb9PSK6pamkLdMQHLk6eEAWkbR_WcaKhKjE0EZIIY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kiiri (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279145">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279146" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420026076"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Kiiri - he is 8 months old now, and more than heavy enough to be dangerous. Worse, mouthiness and biting are common, even more common with colts. I recognized his early mouthiness as searching for something to suckle and felt sorry for him, but as he got older it became necessary to "wean" him. At night when I put him back in his stall (if I go back and forth between outside and the house he stays in the yard without fencing) he will spend as much as twenty minutes mouthing at me and playing with the lead rope while he watches me. Teeth and increasing jaw strength makes letting him have my hand in his mouth increasingly dangerous.</p> <p>Mr Woo hopes to keep him intact and breed him (he comes from some well-known blood lines and has a gorgeous head). His older half brother was Mr Woo's first attempt to keep me outside more, and became quite a challenge when the hormones really started running, so I am not as hopeful about this one as Mr Woo is.</p> <p>As much as I am "momma" to this colt, I can't imagine acupuncture being "calming" or making him feel better.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279146&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lrM7Mspxr8wZrUBsoJwYcQGo28h8OFKVzbzYykoVHDg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279146">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279147" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420026105"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for your well wishes! :-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279147&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PT_KoxVJn50OxRxY-WIBByvc07CZGGnt62yWLlfzZg4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279147">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279148" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420026510"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Alia - I am a chronic pain patient and have been debating which is more dangerous - maximum daily doses of NSAIDs or continual opioid drugs. It seems like there are never good options.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279148&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_bq_SDimTuJfIloNQSs7Lz1WLEH0pEvjqvTN5lpssEc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279148">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279149" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420028334"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Denice Walter</p> <p>I think the condition you're describing (not holding head straight, unsteady gait) may be somewhat common and benign for cats, if it happens to be the same that my family cat went through. I was scared to death but the vet suspected it would pass and it did. Some sort of inner ear infection? I can't recall.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279149&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Fbls40M5Kyvl2K79YgOia8AKpyZjFd2658dfz0Jblco"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ScottK (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279149">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279150" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420032954"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks for this one, Orac. I've been railing about this in another forum. Vet acupuncture is woo-placebo for the human, to make her think all possible steps are taken to relieve a pet's pain. I've seen educated people misled this way, placing trust in a academic institution that should dam well know better. Acupuncture did not fool the human - she could see the dog's discomfort. It is the institutional betrayal that added further insult.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279150&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R5t3ZSgBzYBpsOWOTViX2hXJ0HdFgW5IGRrx2IH7oew"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">THS (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279150">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279151" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420035713"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ ScottK:</p> <p>Thanks.</p> <p>That was my first thought however there were other issues I didn't describe ( too much): they took blood and kept the cat overnight so I fear for the worse</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279151&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NOjilGnsykJ9W3YpTG5tnu7Zpvrrq9dlQwWMdd-_2ew"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279151">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279152" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420041632"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Armies of Woo are becoming more and more prominent in veterinary medicine, and as a veterinarian who tries very hard to practice evidence-based medicine, I find myself on the defensive against this crap on a regular basis. It angers me that people who have been trained in medicine and science actually believe they're not wasting a client's time and money.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279152&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OpZ7PF6y03rHznkfh0BQ0UAkVDptqD_22fqRSkZRFKw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Deborah Cottrell (not verified)</span> on 31 Dec 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279152">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279153" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420188768"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Working in a veterinary teaching hospital I've unfortunately witnessed the woo infiltration first-hand. Our oncologists seem particularly susceptible. Even my own direct supervisor who is quite bright, and double-boarded in internal medicine and cardiology is more credulous than I'd like about "alternative" medicine. Most of our clinicians ignore me because I'm just a vet tech (more or less equivalent to an RN in human medicine) but he, at least, has seemed to pay attention to my arguments. It's a very small service, and he has to deal with me every day, so...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279153&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bpQ65RnK4vbHM1ri_FU_BMLzF_yaH7QFTzmPVWvBH70"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CC (not verified)</span> on 02 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279153">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279154" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420229536"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I should know I spent more than an hour there yesterday ( only an annual check ) I usually don’t mind a wait HOWEVER a cat with ( possibly) neurological issues was crying plaintively throughout which was distressing to me.<br /> I didn’t like what her person told me about her symptoms- not holding head straight, not walking normally.</i><br /> The cat could've had vestibular disease - my previous cat had a bout with it which is how I know about it - which when peripheral and not central could just be self-limiting (as happened with my cat). If this is the case with this cat, then the cat will get better and they would claim it's because of whatever alternative treatment the cat gets. It's actually fairly easy to say if it's central (bad news - some brain issue) or peripheral (inner ear) by eye movement pattern being all over in central and side to side in peripheral - as the neurologist explained to me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279154&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BC1Q5O_lQLdbuTy8U8XV7OaSNSOvRIMjRg_ErAnTZPI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">kitty (not verified)</span> on 02 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279154">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279155" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420235633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ kitty:</p> <p>Thanks.<br /> Vestibular problems were my first thought but the cat's carer mentioned other worrisome symptoms.and she was kept for a series of tests. I saw two very upset looking faces- the doctor's and the cat's owner- after the exam.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279155&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ouIvHiD8R3XAHdVePpIyhr_YUuuJR0KCqC1OQDc504I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 02 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279155">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279156" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420236761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Though I've never been offered any veterinary woo by the rotating series of service up-sellers that seem to rotate through....I noticed my vets website mentions they now offer acupuncture and stem cell treatments.</p> <p>So far no woo offered in my small local hospital. There was an aborted attempt to introduce Therapeutic Touch many years ago, but it was aborted principally by yours truly, and nobody has had the nerve to try again.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279156&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q4AcLzpgfHS1gIAi_mwZPRFzXd1HPJ2dJA4sYVECjNg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NewcoasterMD (not verified)</span> on 02 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279156">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279157" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420344516"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Of course, in the case of actual pathology, such as a disc problem, it is possible that spinal manipulation might be of some benefit</p></blockquote> <p>Did you actually mean what that seems to say, Dr G?</p> <p>Acute disc problems in dogs usually mean sudden extrusion of disc material and this may compress the spinal cord leading to paresis or paralysis. Resting the patient is our main treatment modality. Our worry is that if the patient remains active they risk converting a merely painful back into a paralysing event. Easing the pain is very much a secondary consideration after protecting the dog from becoming paralysed. That said, although we do offer analgesia, my impression is that it is the imposition of strict rest that is itself the best pain relief (uncontrolled observation: animals present with varying durations of clinical signs but tend to show monotonic improvement over a small number of days once cage-rest is imposed regardless of whether we prescribe drugs). </p> <p>Given what chiros do I would be very worried that their manipulations might cause deterioration. On the one occasion where I know that a client's animal was subjected to chiro manipulation soon after the onset of acute back pain such a deterioration is exactly what happened: their merely-painful animal was now brought to me with significant hindlimb ataxia. The idiot interfering chiro was apparently a family member and even after the event the owners resented any implication that their back-cracker may have made things worse. </p> <p>Fortunately the dog did go on to recover.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279157&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QMEwnuHK4nV8nzRb9xjpTI52Qg8iwu16U1W3yJIQu7w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Badly Shaved Monkey (not verified)</span> on 03 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279157">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279158" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420344811"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>P.S. and parenthetically;</p> <p>Dr G when I post here, iPhone Safari snaps its display to my numbered comment, but at SBM it simply reloads the page and displays the top. This is fairly frustrating once a large number of comments have been posted and you have to scroll down a long way to find the just-posted comment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279158&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UVTTyTl_varxkUHVIbT7GxhHWPLhfzffG7_W8bU9EvE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Badly Shaved Monkey (not verified)</span> on 03 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279158">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1279159" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1420381373"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, just yesterday my lovely kitty tried to bit through my finger when I inserted the drip needle. Can't blame her, probably for some reason this was more painful then usual (hit an adhesion, perhaps?). And so, if it weren't so stressful for my cat, I would really love to see an acupuncturist try to "treat" her. Of course, first they would have to prove to me that they have an insurance and sign an informed consent form. ;-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1279159&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NzHNef2Pgh2MzBM_fH3hJcjjAYbB3oUHJoZqYkbtX9g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alia (not verified)</span> on 04 Jan 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1279159">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2014/12/30/adventures-in-bad-veterinary-medicine-reported-by-the-local-media-year-end-edition%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 30 Dec 2014 08:21:50 +0000 oracknows 21956 at https://scienceblogs.com Ebola, "right-to-try," and placebo legislation https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/10/28/ebola-right-to-try-laws-and-placebo-legislation <span>Ebola, &quot;right-to-try,&quot; and placebo legislation</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><div align="center"> <a href="/files/insolence/files/2014/10/MMdallas_2808435b.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2014/10/MMdallas_2808435b-450x280.jpg" alt="MMdallas_2808435b" width="450" height="280" class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-9150" /></a> </div> <p>One of the biggest medical conspiracy theories for a long time has been that there exist out there all sorts of fantastic cures for cancer and other deadly diseases but <em>you</em> can’t have them because (1) “<em><strong>they</strong></em>” don’t want you to know about them (as I like to call it, the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007D5QUVI?btkr=1">Kevin Trudeau approach</a>) and/or (2) the evil jackbooted thugs of the FDA are so close-minded and blinded by science that they crush any attempt to market such drugs and, under the most charitable assessment under this myth, dramatically slow down the approval of such cures. The first version usually involves “natural” cures or various other alternative medicine cures that are being “suppressed” by the FDA, FTC, state medical boards, and various other entities, usually at the behest of their pharma overlords. The second version is less extreme but no less fantasy-based. It tends to be tightly associated with libertarian and small government fantasists and a loose movement in medicine with similar beliefs known as the “health freedom” movement. who posit that, if only the heavy hand of government were removed and the jack-booted thugs of the FDA called off, free market innovation would flourish and all these cures, so long suppressed by an overweening regulatory apparatus, the floodgates would open and these cures, long held back by the dam of the FDA, would flow to the people.(Funny how it didn’t work out that way before the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906.) Of course, I can’t help but note that in general, in this latter idea, these fantastical benefits seem to be reserved only for those who have the cash, because, well, the free market fixes everything.</p> <p>The idea that the FDA is keeping cures from desperate terminally ill people, either intentionally or unintentionally, through its insistence on a rigorous, science-based approval process in which drugs are taken through preclinical work, phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 testing before approval is one of the major driving beliefs commonly used to justify so-called “right-to-try” laws. These bills have been infiltrating state houses like so much kudzu, and the Ebola outbreak has only added fuel to the fire based on the accelerated use of ZMapp, a humanized monoclonal antibody against the Ebola virus, in some patients even though it hadn’t been tested in humans yet (more on that later). Already four of these laws have been passed (in Colorado, Missouri, Louisiana, and now Michigan) with a referendum in Arizona almost certain to pass next week to bring the total to five states with such laws. Basically, these laws, as I’ve described, claim to allow access to experimental drugs to terminally ill patients with a couple of major conditions: First, that the drug has passed phase I clinical trials and second that the patient has exhausted all approved therapies. As I’ve explained before more than once, first when the law <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/03/06/right-to-try-laws-are-metastasizing/">hit the news big time in Arizona</a> and then when a right-to-try bill was introduced into the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/14/the-cruel-sham-of-right-to-try-comes-to-michigan/">legislature here in Michigan</a>, they do nothing of the sort and are being promoted based on a huge amount of misinformation detailed in the links earlier. First, having passed phase 1 does not mean a drug is safe, but right-to-try advocates, particularly the main group spearheading these laws, the Goldwater Institute, <a href="http://goldwaterinstitute.org/RightToTry">make that claim incessantly</a>. Second, they vastly overstate the likelihood that a given experimental drug will help a given patient. The list goes on.</p> <!--more--><p>Unfortunately, a week and a half ago, the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/14/the-cruel-sham-of-right-to-try-comes-to-michigan/">cruel sham that was the Michigan right-to-try bill</a> was passed into law and <a href="http://www.michigan.gov/snyder/0,4668,7-277--339631--,00.html">signed by Governor Rick Snyder</a>. It’s rather interesting how this came about. <a href="http://www.senatorjohnpappageorge.com/">Senator John Pappageorge</a> introduced <a href="http://legiscan.com/MI/text/SB0991/id/1034081/Michigan-2013-SB0991-Introduced.html">Senate Bill 991</a> in the Michigan Senate over the summer. There was very little news coverage, which I considered odd, given the heavy news coverage of right-to-try bills in other states. In fact, I only happened to hear that the Michigan right-to-try bill had even been introduced into the Senate when a colleague who happens to deal with the legislature as part of his job let me know about it. I also learned that in addition to home grown patient advocates supporting the bill, there was a flack from the Goldwater Institute flown in to testify and that no one from Michigan universities or academic medical centers was particularly eager to testify against the bill due to the expected backlash.</p> <p>I can totally understand the patient impetus for these laws, given that I have had family members with terminal illnesses. Unfortunately, however, forces like the Goldwater Institute are taking advantage of the very human desire not to die and not to be forced to watch one’s loved ones die, all in order to push bad legislation. Indeed, the Goldwater Institute uses terminally ill patients desperate for their lives in much the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/22/stanislaw-burzynski-and-the-cynical-use-of-cancer-patients-as-shields-and-weapons-against-the-fda/">same way Stanislaw Burzynski uses them</a>: As shields and weapons in their battle against the FDA and state medical boards. That’s why, as I’ve morbidly joked before, being against right-to-try in the eye of the public is not unlike being against Mom, apple pie, the American flag, and puppies, hence the reluctance of even doctors doing clinical trials to publicly voice opposition. The most predictable attack against anyone who dares to publicly oppose these bills has been to portray opponents as not just callous, but as practically twirling their mustaches with delight and cackling evilly while watching terminally ill patients die without hope. (I exaggerate—but only slightly.) Few are the physicians and scientists (and even fewer still the medical centers and universities) who want to risk being portrayed that way, and one who did testify against it reported enduring withering looks from patient advocates, who, like Burzynski patients and families, really do view opponents of right-to-try as <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/12/who-they-view-us/">enemies</a> actively <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/02/13/how-they-view-us-briefly-revisited/">seeking</a> to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/05/05/how-they-view-us-2014-edition/">prevent them from saving their lives</a> or the lives of family members.</p> <p>Before I knew it, Senate Bill 991 had <a href="http://legiscan.com/MI/votes/SB0991/2013">passed overwhelmingly</a>. So, seeing what was coming next, I wrote my House Representative to urge that he oppose the bill, <a href="http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billintroduced/House/htm/2014-HIB-5651.htm">House Bill 5651</a>. He was receptive and a little surprised that anyone would be against the bill, but he admitted that my arguments made him think. Even so, I was under no illusion that he was likely ever to vote against it. He didn’t. On October 1, House Bill 5651 passed the House unanimously and was signed by Governor Rick Snyder on October 17. Interestingly, despite my having tried to pay close attention to news reports and House activity, I only learned of this last week, when news stories noted that Snyder had already signed the bill! The fix appeared to have been in, as this bill passed with about as close to zero news coverage as I’ve seen for a bill this major in every other state where it’s appeared.</p> <p>Not surprisingly, libertarians are declaring this a big “win” for patient’s rights. It’s nothing of the sort. The flavor of the arguments can best be seen in two articles from Reason.com’s Nick Gillespie, who is clearly clueless about clinical trials. Basically, he took to <a href="http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/21/michigan-gov-rick-snyder-signs-right-to">Reason.com to gloat</a>, referencing an article from over two weeks ago that he entitled <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/12/the-upside-of-ebola-yes-there-may-actually-be-one.html">The Upside of Ebola (Yes, There May Actually Be One)</a>. It’s about as blatant a move to take advantage of the Ebola outbreak to promote bad right-to-try legislation as I’ve ever seen. The subtitle exults:</p> <blockquote><p> A rising death toll, mass panic, scary mortality rate—what could possibly be good about the out-of-control epidemic? It may accelerate the adoption of laws giving patients more power. </p></blockquote> <p>Yeah, sure. Thousands of people are dying of a horrible disease in Africa while people in the U.S. are freaking out about the possibility of the virus causing outbreaks right here at home, and Gillespie sees these events, apparently more than anything else, as an opportunity to push his libertarian agenda with respect to medicine:</p> <blockquote><p> Ebola’s arrival and seeming spread in America is causing mass panic, tasteless Internet jokes, and incredibly poorly timed magazine covers. Can anything good come out of the disease, which has no known cure and a terrifying mortality rate of 50 percent?</p> <p>Yes. To the extent it forces a conversation about the regulations surrounding the development of new drugs and the right of terminal patients to experiment with their own bodies, Ebola in the United States may well accelerate adoption of so-called right-to-try laws. These radical laws allow terminally ill patients access to drugs, devices, and treatments that haven’t yet been fully approved by the Federal Drug Administration and other medical authorities. The patients and their estates agree not to bring legal action against caregivers, pharmaceutical companies, and insurers.</p> <p>You don’t have to be a doctrinaire libertarian—though it helps—to see the value in letting people with nothing left to lose experiment on themselves. They may get a new lease on life. The rest of us get meaningful information that may speed up the development of the next great medical intervention. </p></blockquote> <p>Actually, you do rather have to be a doctrinaire libertarian to have a reality distortion field as powerful as Nick Gillespie’s that leads him to write drivel like this. Ebola and right-to-try laws. Hmmmm. How is one thing not like the other (or not related to the other)? First of all, Gillespie’s rationale is a complete <em>non sequitur</em>, clearly designed to take advantage of the Ebola panic to persuade people that right-to-try laws are a good idea, even though such laws would not have had one whit of an effect on the odd patient in the US who might be infected with Ebola. After all, Ebola, as deadly as it is, is not a terminal illness. Second, I can’t help but note that existing FDA mechanisms got ZMapp to American Ebola patients rather rapidly, no need for right-to-try laws necessary. But excuse me. What Gillespie says is that Ebola and ZMapp are “forcing a conversation.” I suppose that’s true, but it’s the wrong conversation, a profoundly deceptive conversation, in which an advocate of right-to-try laws shamelessly takes plays on people’s fears of Ebola to promote these bad laws. Claiming that there is “no good argument against right-to-try” (<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/03/06/right-to-try-laws-are-metastasizing/">wrong</a>, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/14/the-cruel-sham-of-right-to-try-comes-to-michigan/">wrong</a>, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/19/usa-today-flubs-it-big-time-over-right-to-try-laws/">wrong</a>), Gillespie also shamelessly attacks straw men, representing the primary argument against right-to-try as giving patients “<a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkroll/2014/05/19/the-false-hope-of-colorados-right-to-try-act/">false hope</a>.” There are lots of other reasons why these are bad laws.</p> <p>But Gillespie is just getting warmed up:</p> <blockquote><p> But what’s already cruel is the FDA’s drug-testing process. It’s massively expensive and overly long, costing between $800 million and $1 billion to bring a drug to market and taking a decade or more to complete the approval process. <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/09/kill-the-fda-before-it-kills-again.html">There’s every reason to believe</a> that the FDA approval process is killing as many or more people than it saves, especially as the FDA doesn’t allow approvals from Europe and elsewhere to stand in for trials here. </p></blockquote> <p>Uh, no. There is not “every reason to believe” anything of the sort. See? Once again, there’s the myth that there are all these fantastic cures out there that the FDA, through its bureaucratic inertia, is keeping from you. I am rather grateful, though, that Gillespie, through his link, makes his intent very clear. The article to which he linkes is entitled <a href="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/09/kill-the-fda-before-it-kills-again.html">Kill The FDA (Before It Kills Again)</a>, in which, referencing the movie <em>Dallas Buyers Club</em>—which I finally saw on cable and was surprised to find that, leaving aside its historical inaccuracies about the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s, taken just as a movie it was at best just OK (I was seriously disappointed)—Gillespie proclaims that the FDA “continues to choke down the supply of life-saving and life-enhancing drugs that will everyone agrees will play a massive role not just in reducing future health care costs but in improving the quality of all our lives.” And what is his rationale? Wrap your mind around this:</p> <blockquote><p> As my Reason colleague Ronald Bailey <a href="http://reason.com/blog/2006/12/20/whats-to-blame-for-fewer-new-p">has written</a>, this means the FDA’s caution “may be killing more people than it saves.” How’s that? “If it takes the FDA ten years to approve a drug that saves 20,000 lives per year that means that 200,000 people died in the meantime.” </p></blockquote> <p>Completely missing from Bailey’s and Gillespie’s equation is the number of drugs that the FDA doesn’t approve because they don’t show efficacy and safety that could allow even more than those 20,000 people a year to die or even actively kill some of them. As conceded by even Bailey, it was the FDA that prevented, for example, approval of Thalidomide in the US and the rash of birth defects seen elsewhere in the world. Bailey's argument is, at best, tenuous, at worse misleading. Gillespie notes:</p> <blockquote><p> A 2006 Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that the number of new drug applications submitted to the FDA between 1993 and 2004 increased by just 38 percent despite an increase in research and development of 147 percent. The mismatch, said GAO, was the result of many factors, ranging from basic issues with translating discoveries into usable drugs, patent law, and dubious business decisions by drug makers. But the problems also included “uncertainty regarding regulatory standards for determining whether a drug should be approved as safe and effective,” a reality that almost certainly made pharmaceutical companies more likely to tweak old drugs rather than go all in on new medicines. </p></blockquote> <p>Notice how this is another <em>non sequitur</em> applied to right-to-try laws, given that the answer to this problem would be regulatory clarity, not state-by-state right-to-try laws. Think of it this way: What’s more uncertain? The FDA or having different laws in different states regarding “right to try”? Gillespie’s citing his previous article claiming that the FDA is killing you in an article promoting right-to-try is a very good indication what these laws are really about. They are not about helping patients. That’s how they are sold to desperately ill patients, but in reality libertarians like Gillespie and Bailey are using desperately ill patients in the same way that Stanislaw Burzynski is: As a powerful tool to sway public opinion against the FDA and towards their viewpoint.</p> <p>There’s a reason that certain aspects of these laws are not as widely emphasized in the PR offensive in favor of right to try. It’s because they are pure “health freedom” and libertarian wingnuttery. For example, if you look at the Goldwater Institute template for right to try laws, which, unfortunately, has been the basis of every right to try law passed and under consideration, you’ll notice a number of highly problematic clauses. As I’ve discussed multiple times, there is the requirement that the drug or device has only passed phase 1 trials, which, given how few drugs that have passed phase 1 actually make it through to approval, is a really low bar, especially since most phase 1 trials involve fewer than around 25 patients.</p> <p>More disturbing are the financial aspects. The <a href="/files/insolence/files/2014/10/GoldwaterInstituteRighttoTryModel.pdf">Goldwater Institute legislative language template</a> (to which the Michigan legislation is virtually identical) allows drug companies to charge patients, with no provision to help patients pay for exercising right-to-try. Indeed, it specifically states that the bill “does not require any governmental agency to pay costs associated with the use, care, or treatment of a patient with an investigational drug, biological product, or device” and that insurance companies do not have to pay for costs associated with the use of such therapies. You know what this means? Insurance companies could refuse to pay for care related to complications that might occur because of experimental treatments. You use an experimental drug and suffer a complication? Too bad! Your insurance company can cut you off! Now, it’s unlikely that government entities like Medicare or Medicaid would do that, but insurance companies certainly will.</p> <p>Basically, what this law says is: If you can afford it yourself, no help, you can have it. If not, you’re SOL. As I’ve pointed out, if there’s one thing worse than dying of a terminal illness, it’s suffering unnecessary complications from a drug that is incredibly unlikely to save or significantly prolong your life and bankrupting yourself and family in the process. Right-to-try encourages just that. What’s more compassionate? Attacking the FDA and degrading the approval process that requires drug safety and efficacy while dangling false hope in front of patients or standing up and protecting patients from the harm such a policy could cause. Let’s just put it this way: I predict that Stanislaw Burzynski will soon be sending antineoplastons to patients in right-to-try states if, as he keeps bragging, the FDA has <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/06/26/the-fda-really-caves-stanislaw-burzynski-can-do-clinical-trials-again/">allowed him to reopen his clinical trials</a>. After all, his antineoplastons would qualify just fine under right-to-try laws if they’re back under clinical trial. Indeed, if there's one thing the decades-long battle between the FDA and Burzynski tells us, it's that the FDA actually bends over way too far backwards to allow manufacturers of dubious drugs to prove themselves.</p> <p>Finally, the anti-FDA rhetoric, such as linked to by Gillespie, is a very good indication that the true purpose of right-to-try legislation is to neuter the FDA's power to control drug approval, thus greatly loosening or even eliminating hurdles to the drug approval process. It is no coincidence that the strongest, richest, and most vocal proponents of these laws are the Goldwater Institute and libertarians like Nick Gillespie and Ronald Bailey, who, not coincidentally, think that the FDA is “killing us.” Those articles are a definite tell. It's also clearly a strategy to get right-to-try passed in as many states as possible and <a href="http://www.azcentral.com/story/robertrobb/2014/10/27/prop303-good-idea-but-why-the-vote/18031817/">get referendums passed by wide margins</a> to pressure the federal government to weaken the FDA.</p> <p>In the end, though, right-to-try laws are what I like to call “placebo” laws in that they make people who pass them and support them feel good but don’t actually address the problem that they are supposedly intended to address. Drug approval regulatory authority lies with the FDA; it could completely ignore state right-to-try laws. The FDA also has a compassionate use program and rarely turns down such requests. Admittedly, the application process is long and probably too onerous, but the answer to that problem is not state right-to-try laws. It’s to address the issue at the federal level. I’ve also said in an interview that, now that my state government has foolishly passed a right-to-try law, one of two things is likely to happen: Either nothing, because federal authority trumps state authority, or disaster for patients, doctors, and, yes, biotech and drug companies. Everybody, myself included, wants to help terminally ill patients. After all, I’ve seen too many of them. Right to try and similar misguided efforts, however, are not the way.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Tue, 10/28/2014 - 05:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cancer" hreflang="en">cancer</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/popular-culture" hreflang="en">Popular Culture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antineoplastons" hreflang="en">antineoplastons</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/arizona" hreflang="en">Arizona</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/colorado" hreflang="en">Colorado</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/dallas-buyers-club" hreflang="en">Dallas Buyers Club</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ebola-0" hreflang="en">ebola</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/fda" hreflang="en">FDA</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/food-and-drug-administration" hreflang="en">Food and Drug Administration</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/goldwater-institute" hreflang="en">Goldwater Institute</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/house-bill-5651" hreflang="en">House Bill 5651</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/john-pappageorge" hreflang="en">John Pappageorge&lt;</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/legislation" hreflang="en">legislation</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/libertarian" hreflang="en">libertarian</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/louisiana" hreflang="en">louisiana</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/michigan" hreflang="en">Michigan</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/missouri" hreflang="en">Missouri</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nick-gillespie" hreflang="en">Nick Gillespie</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/placebo" hreflang="en">placebo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/reasoncom" hreflang="en">Reason.com</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/rick-snyder" hreflang="en">Rick Snyder</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/right-try" hreflang="en">right to try</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/ronald-bailey" hreflang="en">Ronald Bailey</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/senate-bill-991" hreflang="en">Senate Bill 991</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stanislaw-burzynski" hreflang="en">Stanislaw Burzynski</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/terminal-illness" hreflang="en">terminal illness</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/zmapp" hreflang="en">ZMapp</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/cancer" hreflang="en">cancer</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clinical-trials" hreflang="en">Clinical trials</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science" hreflang="en">Science</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/medicine" hreflang="en">Medicine</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273839" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414488038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>False hope is, generally speaking, more cruel than no hope. That's what makes Burzynski so odious (as well as so successful, because his marks^H^H^H^H^Hpatients don't realize he's only offering false hope). The same can be said for these "right-to-try" laws, which practically invite hucksters like Burzynski to sell their alleged treatments to people who have or can raise the money to pay for them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273839&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-9zzEI1I6qHivOFYgW2SfUtCdzELQKDc0WMfObIbf68"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273839">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273840" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414488098"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sadly rather inevitable that some people would use the fast tracking of Ebola treatments (which might be needed for diseases like Ebola), as an excuse to peddle false hope to the vulnerable.<br /> On an unrelated note, Google has one of those picture things to celebrate the 100th Birthday of Jonas Salk. It should be interesting to see how the anti-vaccine crowd react...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273840&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R_QGM8KCa2zwmYLdSl5d_AYOMNZKfw8BSKTE5R5sHSo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">TJ (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273840">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273841" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414489388"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What we really need is a better national conversation on death and dying. We have to stop looking at death as the enemy, and stop treating hospice as "giving up," when it's anything but.</p> <p>I see no point in pushing experimental drugs on people in the vain hope "it might help" prolong your life by a few days at the cost of miserable side effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or increased pain.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273841&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ATfvViU1Jg2vMZavAA2T1HCwajnBydqcl0ueXxsMc2c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Panacea (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273841">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273842" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414490171"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>First, having passed phase 1 does not mean a drug is safe, but right-to-try advocates, particularly the main group spearheading these laws, the Goldwater Institute, make that claim incessantly. </p></blockquote> <p>If passing Phase 1 clinical trials actually was proof that a drug although not necessarily effective was safe, we'd never see drugs like Vioxx, Zelnorm, Baycol, Trasylol, Meridia, Permax, etc....all of which flew thorugh Phase 1 and wnet on through Phase 2 and 3 and received FDA approval--being discontinued/pulled from the market, would we?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273842&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8h8vMVvtXpGEPtx_kuPG4Tk30Ym817Lsy3CQC2gtx4o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273842">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273843" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414497161"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>It’s also clearly a strategy to get right-to-try passed in as many states as possible and get referendums passed by wide margins to pressure the federal government to weaken the FDA.</p></blockquote> <p>I think you hit the nail on the head, and this is what I've been thinking about these laws, as well. They are a wedge strategy. They know that they can't get things changed so dramatically at the Federal level right away, so go about, state by state, until you have a sufficient number to point to and say, "See? The people want this. Why aren't you Washington bureaucrats listening to them?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273843&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c4lA2yXMIODoX6I3MG_Bww4OQglj48iKKlr7xELTGTs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273843">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273844" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414498320"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This seems to be a further example of the *new = better* trope.<br /> Oddly enough, it is something liberals and conservatives agree on.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273844&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MY3SU0XV2yspck5M7CX9SYZGBJg_agiqUsGczPLqSFw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">machintelligence (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273844">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273845" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414498825"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The rest of us get meaningful information</p></blockquote> <p>I would disagree with Mr Gillespie on this. Most of the information may well be meaningless.<br /> In the rushed-up process of a right-to-try, it seems unlikely that there will be proper controls (placebo or previous standard of care). Actually, the very objective of a right-to-try would preclude the possibility of giving a placebo - as it is framed, I don't see desperate people asking to try an untested wonder drug settling for a 50% chance of getting it.<br /> That would make comparison with other treatments difficult to do.</p> <blockquote><p>the movie Dallas Buyers Club</p></blockquote> <p>Isn't the story behind the movie actually a good example of how right-to-try initiatives could be easily misguided? I understood that the Dallas Buyers Club people rejected then-newly drug AZT as too toxic and went for smuggling other untested drugs.<br /> While these other drugs may had merits, AZT has become a very famous first-line treatment, once the dosage was reduced. It would have been a pity to abandon it altogether.<br /> It's easy to play with "if", but It sounds as much dangerous to rush the rejection of a drug as to rush its acceptation. As cold as it sounds, time is needed the properly assess the merit of a drug.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273845&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_aCT3cpOZj1ilEfXHQx1xuV2cRSIsoFw0B6ZOGkl9Rc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273845">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273846" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414498911"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"You do have to be a doctrinaire libertarian to have a reality distortion field as powerful as Nick Gillespie’s."</p> <p>Yeah, baby! The world definitely needs more Nick Gillespie smack. Crapping on the concept of reason since 1968, the fuddy-duddy rag <i>Reason got hip and went for the Web crowd when Gillespie signed on in 1993. No more would 'Hitler wasn't so bad' essays join Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories in painting WWII as the first Vietnam, amidst ads trumpeting "The most daring investment book EVER written: YOU CAN PROFIT FROM THE COMING MIDEAST WAR" (2/76). </i></p> <p>The always leather-jacket clad Slick Nick managed to bring <i>Reason</i> hipster cache and mainstream respectability at the same time. So effective a tool for dereglatory dogma disguised daring counter-culturalism (yuppie version) did Gillespie make <i>Reason</i> become, that he secured the backing of, who else, Charles and David Koch.</p> <p>Methinks Orac has been hit with the Pharma Shill label so often, and not wanting to come off as pandering to his critics, he is indeed too kind to biotech and drug companies in imagining they would suffer should the dreamed deregulation come to pass.They would make out like bandits... wait, they already do that... they would make out like sultans or maybe even a Koch brother. Once the free market fix is in with "right to try," all the fantastical benefits of phase 1 pharms with flow to those with the cash, the cash with flow to the drug companies, and they'll re-invest the profits in buying enough Congressmen to repeal the patent limiits, retroactively, and bye-bye generics since Disney knows real freedom means getting to hold onto your intellectual property forever and ever. Shame on the nanny state for robbing them of the financial incentive to innovate! </p> <p>Confronted with the real, actual thing, beleagured and maligned Orac can't quite bring himself to call a spud a spud: there are Shills for Big Pharma, they are pond scum of the lowest sort, and Nick Gillespie is the genuine article.<br /> ............</p> <p>How reasonable is <i>Reason</i>? The magazine's "Heroes of Freedom" include:<br /> John Ashcroft, Jeff Bezos, William Burroughs, Larry Flynt, Milton Friedman, Barry Goldwater, F.A. Hayek, Robert A. Heinlein, Madonna, Willie Nelson, Richard Nixon, Les Paul, Ron Paul, Ayn Rand, Dennis Rodman, Margaret Thatcher, and Clarence Thomas.</p> <p>That's right, Dennis Rodman.</p> <p>Now that would be one wild party. Freidman would drooling watching Rand trying to get into Rodman's pants as Rodman hit up Burroughs for drugs, as Burroughs was looking for an apple to put on Maggie's head. As the two liberals who snuck into the room Madonna and Nixon would be comparing notes on achieving total world domination. </p> <p>Flynt would be giving Ashcroft joy-rides in his hot-rodded wheel-chair. Bezos would lure Hayak and Ron Paul into a game of high stakes Texas Hold 'Em and take all their money. Les Paul and Willie would sneak out to the nearest bar with an open mic and do some Bob Wills songs, Heinlein would be edging away as Thomas tried to engage him in a discussion of how much he loved <a href="http://nukemars.com/?p=1848"><i>Farnham's Freehold</i></a>, leaving Goldwater alone to talk to Clint Eastwood's stool.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273846&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gbpHoqtR2gGOzlrVrqGXcLBpmA2f95JNhM0KX6Ss2qQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273846">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273847" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414500942"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The problem is that the argument makes superficial sense: Why would you refuse medical intervention to a terminally ill patient that might save their life? </p> <p>But the pitfall is inherent in the naming of the state laws vs. the FDA's program: "right to try" vs. "compassionate use." Right-to-try laws are all about "give the patient the right to try 'experimental' therapies." On the patient's judgement and at the patient's expense. That's a recipe for the creation of the stereotypical snake oil salesmen, in an environment where direct-to-consumer sales and marketing takes overwhelming precedence over any sort of medical judgement, and reduces all medicine to the "oogie-boogie" level of homeopathy. "Compassionate use," on the other hand, implies that some sort of medical judgement is applied to evaluate risk vs. reward in applying medical treatment.<br /> While "compassionate use" has its own problems (not insignificant the incompatibility of government bureaucracy with "compassion"), "right to try" is based on the fallacy that, because everyone's entitled to an opinion, everyone's opinion is therefore equal, and expertise can be excluded from specialized fields. And while I'm all for people taking responsibility for being knowledgeable about their own health medical treatments, I'm not deluded into thinking that a half-hour on the internet is an effective substitute for a a decade of medical training.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273847&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RheZ-O6DuLGZUoYaw8VLOkrHzaq_A0rjoGqgPsDRfBI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tom (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273847">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273848" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414502027"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>The magazine’s “Heroes of Freedom” include:<br /> John Ashcroft, Jeff Bezos, William Burroughs, Larry Flynt, Milton Friedman, Barry Goldwater, F.A. Hayek, Robert A. Heinlein, Madonna, Willie Nelson, Richard Nixon, Les Paul, Ron Paul, Ayn Rand, Dennis Rodman, Margaret Thatcher, and Clarence Thomas.</i></p> <p>I'll grant them Flynt and maybe Nelson. I don't know enough about Les Paul to offer an opinion. The rest range from dubious to WTF. That would be the John Ashcroft who, as US Attorney General, ordered the statue of Justice covered up so the public would not be corrupted by her bare breast; the Richard Nixon who, as President, maintained an enemies list; the Clarence Thomas who, as Supreme Court Justice, routinely opposes civil liberties for individuals; etc. I could see why somebody who only knew Heinlein from his fiction might think him a supporter of freedom, but his politics (particularly from the late 1950s onward; he had been more liberal before he married Virginia Gerstenfeld) are an entirely different matter. Don't get me started on economists like Friedman and Hayek. Or authors like Ayn Rand.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273848&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="saC19Niy25jbZ6WTfffn_4HrCaO4m_0INorChBPzDq4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273848">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273849" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414502614"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I love how these "right to try" people act like the only reason new drugs/treatments don't get FDA approval is some kind of malice. </p> <p>How many treatments get through Phase II only to have the analysis show that they aren't affective? Lots of stuff doesn't get approved because it *doesn't work*. But no, it's got to be a conspiracy. </p> <p>At least when it comes to medicine and health (especially public health), I find libertarianism to be shockingly naive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273849&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mF09UDV1MJAbcPipS_hfCYjJu2kf3UeJw27bBxRQOlQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JustaTech (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273849">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273850" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414503834"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eric Lund said:<br /> " Don't get me started on economists like Friedman and Hayek. Or authors like Ayn Rand"</p> <p>I'm in total agreement.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273850&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="225fmh8ZbU994njTgL5FiiDMvV85qikbbQL1F7p0Kbw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273850">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273851" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414505212"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>so, where's the money? you hinted at it with the Burzynski hypothesis. Who else stands to gain, that were being 'stymied' by FDA from preying on the desperate?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273851&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fOsWzXjtfOImWj5D_GhPffsyJ7pYyhhXtNxWdqRjRws"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Nick J. (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273851">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273852" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414505653"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are two directions rule-wise the FDA might save itself. Ideally, the first is to become less burdensome and develop enlightened policies, recognizable to the public, that better remove the chaff and deliver more of the wheat sooner with less price burden effects. Second is to try to defuse the situation with better selective exemptions rather than the states' attempts. </p> <p>One problem is the monopolistc nature of this FDA system, nominally based on a rather plutocratic version of EBM rather than science per se. Orac clearly rejects the "...life, liberty and pursuit of happiness"-everybody version to protect the unwashed masses from charlatans. A big question is who does have a right to try, or has even earned a right to try? </p> <p>So, for treatments outside of the standards based MD-DO using FDA approved drugs, what groups of nonmedical citizens are sufficiently qualified to fully exercise and self determine their own risk acceptance? STEM degrees, HYPS graduates, IQ 140+, or just MIT-CIT-UCB PhDs. Who?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273852&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EbpDMOeFzIipkLx-QCXjtOLTCPx5E4uH42ks3lKbDkY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">prn (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273852">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273853" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414506006"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Nick J: I'm guessing you're referring to sadmar, because I think I made it quite clear that I don't think money or profits for pharma is the main motivation of libertarians promoting right-to-try. In fact, people in pharma I've spoken to are overwhelmingly against these laws for reasons I've explained in previous posts. One key reason is that making experimental drugs is expensive; most companies generally make only enough pharmaceutical-grade material to do the necessary clinical trials to win approval. If they don't have any left over to give right-to-try patients, and making more is expensive. Startup biotech companies, in particular, dependent as they are on venture capital would be hard-pressed to honor right-to-try requests. Their investors wouldn't like the additional expense, and from a PR standpoint they would be hard-pressed to charge patients the astronomical amounts of money it would take to recoup the cost of making more drug. Right-to-try would drive up costs.</p> <p>No, right-to-try is far more about ideology than anything else. Libertarians believe that the jackbooted thugs of the FDA stifle innovation and, worst of all, prevent an economic transaction between two parties that want to have an economic transaction, which, as you know, must be a horrific affront to FREEDOM, just as the thought of the government telling them they can't put something into their bodies is also an affront to FREEDOM. (Just peruse some of the comments under Gillespie's "FDA is going to kill you" article.) They harken back to a magical, mystical time that never existed when the free market would determine which drugs succeed and fail based on how well they work. It's about the idea that the federal government has no business requiring that drugs be both safe and effective before allowing them to be marketed. Indeed, one argument the Goldwater Institute trots out is that, before thalidomide, the FDA's charge was only to make sure that drugs were not dangerous, not that they were effective. Yeah, that worked out real well.</p> <p>In any case, in one of the most monumental bits of irony ever, if you scope out libertarian arguments on this issue, they really believe that drug safety should be primarily ruled by the tort system, with patients using the courts against companies that produce unsafe and ineffective drugs. Then, libertarians also do everything they can to make it more difficult for consumers to sue corporations for defective products. Convenient, no? An alternative (or complementary) argument is that private, free-enterprise, third party associations, like Underwriters Laboratories, would spring up and certify the safety and efficacy of drugs rather than the FDA. Of course, one could easily imagine in such a system the incentive for such laboratories to become rubber stamps in order to win the most business or for some pharma companies just to start selling drugs that made it through phase 1.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273853&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9zonkXRF1Anfbxz6PIO9LnW8B_ZmMnkH1S0qjVYtCWs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273853">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273854" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414506942"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Ideally, the first is to become less burdensome and develop enlightened policies, recognizable to the public, that better remove the chaff and deliver more of the wheat sooner with less price burden effects.</p></blockquote> <p>So exactly what policy changes do you believe the FDA could adopt which would likely result in the delivery of "more of the wheat sooner" and at lowered cost but without compromising drug safety and efficacy, prn?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273854&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aTt1UIpxgCFGSrrN5aT_F8jFIA7rqquLCNcOVpjaWpg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273854">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273855" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414509572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Phase 3 studies are ridiculously expensive, but what financial incentive would biotech or pharma companies have to sell drugs to individuals after phase 1 trials? One patient's financial resources are no match for those of the insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid, which are more likely to cover approved drugs than an experimental therapy. I think the amount of money raked in for charging each person for a hypothetical post-phase-1 drug, Cancer-B-Gone, would be significantly less than the amount raked in by charging the government and insurance companies for the same compound in FDA-approved form, STUPIDXBRANDQNAME (trixareforkidzimab).</p> <p>So even if the right-to-try-ers get some laws passed, who's gonna sell these magical, potentially life-saving compounds to desperate patients? (Rhetorical question. Totally.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273855&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vUIvndCUjDHjJdK60TbJTq4unwWfuTCG4IaBjYnEQvI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Xplodyncow (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273855">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273856" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414509637"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I googled a little, and found that a bill in Delaware has been introduced in Delaware, a Rep. in Hawaii is (or will be) introducing the bill, and some references to bills in NJ and Minnesota.</p> <p>yes!: Ballotpedia quotes Dr. Gorski under opposition to the AZ. referendum.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273856&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="g1gfSMe7akN71lk5ZwwBlDkF5ALmh2XuAMwjAJTbwKs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mho (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273856">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273857" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414510075"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@machineintelligence #6:</p> <blockquote><p>This seems to be a further example of the *new = better* trope. Oddly enough, it is something liberals and conservatives agree on.</p></blockquote> <p>New = better? Speak for yourself! To me, new or old doesn't matter: greater efficacy matters. I'd embrace 200-year-old homeopathy over this year's chemotherapy if it were proven to provide better objective outcome.</p> <p>Now tell me whether I'm a liberal or a conservative.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273857&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dcYnbGx4h6byv4MWZEOuMFeARAe7Tdqa5Y6GmaZveDw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273857">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273858" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414517324"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The most predictable attack against anyone who dares to publicly oppose these bills has been to portray opponents as not just callous, but as practically twirling their mustaches with delight and cackling evilly while watching terminally ill patients die without hope. (I exaggerate—but only slightly.) </p></blockquote> <p>Considering some of the comments Orac received for criticizing Burzynski, no, I don't think he's exaggerating at all.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273858&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QH5Muv-bjE2rUCus8LsfZhRtt28fVSJ0eN0mMYrYDtI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273858">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273859" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414524045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Panacea @ #3:</p> <p>Just out of curiosity, are there any cultures that are more accepting of death and dying than we are? That is, they don't fear death and they don't see dying as "giving up"? Maybe we can learn a little from them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273859&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d3GT1B59hMGl-5Gl7jxbGUbEerg15O0T5VMF1AeB5OQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lucario (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273859">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273860" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414524207"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>One patient’s financial resources are no match for those of the insurance companies and Medicare/Medicaid, which are more likely to cover approved drugs than an experimental therapy.</p></blockquote> <p>You talk like a person who makes sense, or an Obama-loving nanny-state socialist, whichever you prefer. We're not talking about one patient, maybe 100. 100 very VERY rich patients. </p> <p>The Fordist economy in which average workers could afford to buy the goods they produced is receding out of sight in the rear view mirror. No more mass production for mass consumption. "If you can afford it yourself, you can have it. If not, you’re SOL" is the economic model of a lot of profitable businesses these days. Is it sustainable? No. Do Wall Street ideologues realize that and act with common sense? Absolutely not! </p> <p>Did you miss this part of the OP:</p> <blockquote><p>Insurance companies could refuse to pay for care related to complications that might occur because of experimental treatments. You use an experimental drug and suffer a complication? Too bad! Your insurance company can cut you off! Now, it’s unlikely that government entities like Medicare or Medicaid would do that, but insurance companies certainly will.</p></blockquote> <p>Have you forgotten that Shrub was intent on privatizing Medicare? Do you think any R who makes it through the 2016 primaries won't be bundling that in the fabulous free-market solution to replace that awful Obamacare?</p> <p>I'm guessing the pharma folk Orac talks to are more research-oriented and given not to thinking outside-the-box in terms of economic models. The execs and the fund managers they answer to may take a different point of view. </p> <p>Making experimental drugs is expensive <i>because</i> companies make only enough pharmaceutical-grade material to do the necessary clinical trials to win approval, leaving nothing left over they might give hypothetical right-to-try patients. Now. But if the State legislation dominoes keep falling, as mho indicates they will, that changes. Once there's a market, supply will follow and costs will come down to the price range of the 1%, and that's all Pfizer or Lily will need to open up a boutique division to cash-in. </p> <p>As a current and former resident of the land just north of Silicon Valley, I'm gonna hafta pull geography on our Michigander host about the economics of start-ups and venture capital. Venture capitalists will pour plenty of cash into startup biotech companies <i>designed</i> to honor right-to-try requests. These guys are all making bank on side bets at a roulette wheel. Most start-ups fail miserably, and everybody still makes money. The VCs are all taking long odds trying to hit the big score. It's baby sea turtle economics - they lay lots of cash eggs knowing most of the cute little critters will be gobbled up by predators, but if one makes it to the IPOcean, they've got the next Twitter.</p> <p>Do you know where the biggest concentration of startups per capita in the U. S. is? Fairfield, Iowa. Do you know why that's a hot spot? Because is the home of The Maharishi University of Management, which of course is into Integrative Medicine big-time, with the endorsement not only of Orac's pal Tom Harkin, but Gov. Terry Branstad and every significant Republican pol in the state. They do love them some free-market entrepreneurial spirit!</p> <p>And who established the entrepreneurial culture of Fairfield back in the early 1980s? Ed Beckly, "The Father of the Infomercial" whose ads for his "Millionaire Maker" program to get rich quick by buying real estate with no money down were ubiquitous on late-night TV nationwide back in the day. He had moved to Fairfield to be near Maharishi U as he was <i>very</i> into TM. He brought his self-help sales empire with him. The Beckley Group was selling 25,000-40,000 "courses" a week at $295 each. It had 700 employees, mostly telemarketers handling calls coming in from the infomercials, and trying to 're-sell' dissatisfied customers asking for the 30 day money-back-guarantee. Alas, they kept asking, and Ed didn't send out refunds until those Evil freedom-crushing regulators of the FTC and the State AG came knocking. At which point poor Ed had to cough up $3 million, so he declared bankruptcy, and folded the Beckley Group putting 10% of the town out of work. Undaunted, Ed started another smaller self-help-course business in Fairfield, which lasted until he was convicted of wire fraud in 1993 and sent off to the federal pokey. He has apparently been unable to levitate over the barbed-wire.</p> <p>In short, start-ups can be seen as sophisticated, legitimized Ponzi schemes. It's easy for a Big Pharma Corporation to set up a subdivision to go for a piece of that action that has enough de jure distance from their mainstream biz to not threaten that rep or bottom line. And when the lucky VC gets his eager-beaver techies to develop a new thingie that passes Phase One, the Big Dogs will come sniffing, trying to get in on the ground floor, over-bid, then the winner will promote the living daylights out of the prize acquisition and they'll still make money in the long run, selling Rolls Royce experimental treatments to The Achievers. </p> <p>I speculate, of course, which is part of the fun of being a social critic. It doesn't cost anything. But if you were going to bet money in one of those prediction markets, I wouldn't bet against it.</p> <p>It looks like right-to-try may soon be the law of the land. We'll see what happens. I'll eat my plate of mangy virtual crow if right-to-try remains no more than an ideological triumph, and fails to affect the marketplace. I probably hope I'll lose. Time will tell.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273860&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mLDI1Z3QsDUmgvKscMtv_hKEGszdVqrB1dB-o-pKDVc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273860">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273861" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414525223"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>they don’t fear death</p></blockquote> <p>I used to worship a Cult like that ... <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcUyhoxTg">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcUyhoxTg</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273861&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="isekmsI64No_pQhBYh4gIRtldXEuUDzBy1z1ozXjv5E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273861">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273862" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414532386"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"In short, start-ups can be seen as sophisticated, legitimized Ponzi schemes."</p> <p>It seems start-ups are another topic on which sadmar ignorantly pontificates. </p> <p>I started at a start-up sixteen years ago. I was the 25th employee. Thirteen years later we had 2500 employees -- that's 2500 people who had pretty good salaries to support their families with -- when we were finally gobbled up by a bigger firm. An awful lot of people made money off our company including a whole lot of employees. We didn't cheat anybody. We didn't lie to anybody about our monetary situation. We just got in there and worked night and day to make the very best product we could, and it is a good product that a lot of people's livelihoods still depend on. </p> <p>And sadmar in its infinite wisdom announces that we were just running a Ponzi scheme.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273862&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NyyeStOq1nSoHDb8bjOJvZKPqhNhBNoNIWZOCXvMbCQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273862">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273863" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414533849"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>This seems to be a further example of the *new = better* trope. Oddly enough, it is something liberals and conservatives agree on.</i></p> <p>You can have my Springfield musket when you pry it out of my cold, dead Yankee hands.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273863&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PkUMBW5H9v0ovem5f7gRiE2XDrQ0MZnN48GEEhWhlgI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shay (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273863">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273864" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414541232"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You've got me beat, Shay. I admit I like the oldies, but I don't care for smoke poles.</p> <p>I do have a coupla 03 Springfields (adopted by the Army in 1903), including a Mark 1, an M-1 with a 6 digit serial number (the first digit is a 1, meaning it's prior to WWII), my carry gun (on the rare occasion I feel the need) is a .38 Spl (a cartridge that was developed in 1898), except when a new James Bond movie comes out, when I put my Walther PPK (designed in 1924) in my pocket, because, hey, James Bond. </p> <p>I also have a pair of Ruger Vaqueros that look like old Colt SAAs, but are, of course, modern design. Also, all of my 1911 clones are, well, clones, but look like the pistol adopted in 1911.</p> <p>But black powder is just a little too old school for me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273864&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y5Dn_jg7RrHMKlIqTEQZ4pkFlwa89TpFF8OJCDm8fA0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273864">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273865" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414541485"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I used to worship a Cult like that</i></p> <p><a>A drug by the name of World Without End</a>!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273865&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DRXCCDssnK_8bvQB6Gm2s8QwbdA-183XZxtDk45SDTM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273865">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273866" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414547897"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LW: "And sadmar in its infinite wisdom announces that we were just running a Ponzi scheme."</p> <p>Am I the only one that ignores sadmar's TL/DR screeds? Seriously, does this guy have anything other to offer than tone trolling and nonsense?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273866&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_mO6UB-S8Giy28CdB9rsX-JSF0LyvkSZ6mYbwZQgm6I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273866">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273867" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414549195"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>LW: “And sadmar in its infinite wisdom announces that we were just running a Ponzi scheme.”</p> <p>Chris, I tried to ignore sadmar's posts, but (s)he manages to post comments which are downright insulting. The posts about Andrew Wakefield and the murdering mothers of autistic children were vile.</p> <p>All that stuff about Fairfield Iowa were ripped off from the Wikipedia entry or from an Oprah show which featured the small town, and (s)he knows nothing about venture capital, equity capital and start up companies.</p> <p><a href="http://www.sba.gov/content/venture-capital">http://www.sba.gov/content/venture-capital</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273867&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DKKTsrugKUrFyGQTD-1sAQwM3VzfBbTykBj_IQAdPuk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273867">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273868" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414554887"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well ya'll could loosen up on they hydroxyzine. Think of it as a *loss leader*...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273868&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6p-SrRz66MoqUEu8kLbZScEC-zSQLtD9z6m3vV4YWbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jimmeh (not verified)</span> on 28 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273868">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273869" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414560631"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>In short, start-ups can be seen as sophisticated, legitimized Ponzi schemes.</p></blockquote> <p>Absolutely true,according to a reality show I came across called <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_72cWRpCZ7U">South Park</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273869&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d3N3YIZH4ssIqKTPtQQEA_qs9WecxmLr8VmpYEucai8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273869">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273870" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414562962"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>In short, start-ups can be seen as sophisticated, legitimized Ponzi schemes.</p></blockquote> <p>Actually it's pretty funny that sadmar, who is so much smarter and wiser and more skilled at communication than the rest of us ignorant rabble, doesn't know that, if you start a sentence with "in short", the rest of the sentence should have some connection to the prior discussion. Wise compassionate all-knowing sadmar failed to present any evidence that start-ups are Ponzi schemes; in fact quite the opposite since sadmar compared VCs to gamblers, which is not actually a completely fair comparison since VCs do due dilligence to try to weed out the real losers and are not relying solely on luck. Nevertheless, gamblers are not running Ponzi schemes. VCs who lose money on one investment but make money on another are not running Ponzi schemes. </p> <p>Perhaps before next gracing us with condescending bloviation, sadmar might try looking up the meanings of words.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273870&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XYap7kHZCxN6uiR98ZwBytjnjiB7k87giabtkgWfcD8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LW (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273870">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273871" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414564436"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In other news honorary doctor of oriental medicine* Mark Sircus <a href="http://drsircus.com/medicine/ebola-saving-lives-natural-allopathic-medicine">claims he can cure Ebola with magnesium, iodine, baking soda, selenium and vitamin C</a> in what he amusingly calls 'Natural Allopathic Medicine'. Sircus is known for his measured and rational response to the CDC's evil support of vaccination (<a href="http://drsircus.com/medicine/string-bastards">'String the Bastards Up'</a>). </p> <p>* His honorary doctorate was awarded by a Mexican hospital in thanks for his work there - can he legally use the title 'doctor' like this? It's clearly designed to deceive people into thinking he has some clue about medicine.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273871&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZivGuzO0CqAPBJM6o-XUxqEtJMsk03JTYCJ-t0vuNvY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273871">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273872" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414565064"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I ignore sadmar's posts, not because of their content, but because of their extraordinary length. I've got work to do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273872&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="22jsqoZwcIE9PJ34aix4AOxYp90suc_68D03lpJS6Wg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">palindrom (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273872">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273873" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414567942"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@</p> <p><i>I think the amount of money raked in for charging each person for a hypothetical post-phase-1 drug, Cancer-B-Gone, would be significantly less than the amount raked in by charging the government and insurance companies for the same compound in FDA-approved form, STUPIDXBRANDQNAME (trixareforkidzimab).</i></p> <p>Only if you assume an honest company and a drug that actually works. The profit lies in the overwhelming majority of new drugs that never make it from trials to sales. Push any old rubbish with a vaguely plausible hypothesis through Phase One trials, and then sit back and reap a steady flow of profits from the desperate and dying while pretending to do further trials. Heck, I bet there's plenty of failed drug IP for sale, so you might not even need to do the Phase One trial yourself.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273873&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ny84PGhyGCn_ed2D6_TZ6s_WekN_GV5hyIoN8havmgg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">The Grouchybeast (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273873">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273874" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414572935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Johnny, my pappy was a black-powder shooter so I had to join the Marines before I got to fire something manufactured after 1863.</p> <p>My current arsenal includes the .38 that Grandpa Frank carried when he was a cavalryman, chasing Pancho Villa around the border back in 1911. Lovely weapon. Practically a work of art.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273874&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pcOoYBI062S4txGMWoXCW4bd0KxODRTrH4HdGaBtfeM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shay (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273874">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273875" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414590620"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>His honorary doctorate was awarded by a Mexican hospital in thanks for his work there – can he legally use the title ‘doctor’ like this?</p></blockquote> <p>From Brazil? I don't know who's going to stop him.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273875&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zyGmCJ3L6N-d24bVqcqSOsEQolyXzr1BMJt-2C9gA8A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273875">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273876" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414593111"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'd still like to know about cultures who have a better grasp on death and dying than the US does, cultures who don't worry about death as much as we do and don't see dying as simply "giving up". I'm not an anthropologist, so I don't know anything about this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273876&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-y1KZVWgr0UvO5CnNVrEMC6XNS1KNplCFwrneAIxx3U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lucario (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273876">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273877" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414593346"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I’d still like to know about cultures who have a better grasp on death and dying than the US does, cultures who don’t worry about death as much as we do and don’t see dying as simply “giving up”.</p></blockquote> <p>Try anyplace where Mahayana Buddhism is a dominant force.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273877&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1v7iJSLHNFxVW0wLKVmx5wthda7RNLAlrOcStzWyFf4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273877">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273878" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414594123"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ E.g., <a href="http://vietnameseculture4440crystalparks.blogspot.com/2011/04/beliefs-about-end-of-life-and-death_17.html">Vietnam</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273878&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k12ZrV5jKpTvM4j0bnoidrEwb3gHt9CusV_oHrjR74w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273878">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273879" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414595298"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>sadmar's x-acto knife: be cautious in attributing intent to phrases that may be typing/editing mistakes, or grammatical ambiguities.</p> <p>And Hanlon's razor, too.</p> <p>"Start-ups can be seen as Ponzi schemes." is ambiguous (as opposed to "Start-ups are Ponzi schemes.") because "can be seen" leaves open whether the subject is 'all startups' or 'some startups'.</p> <p>i was specifically referring to the TM-related startups in Fairfield and their ilk elsewhere, and yes I presented evidence of conning in the form of the legacy of Ed Beckley. I did not mean "all startups".</p> <p>Regardless, "Ponzi scheme" was the wrong term, even loosely applied. I retract the entire sentence.</p> <p>To elaborate, LW, while a few startups may be con-games in themselves, overall my impression is that most startups are created by very hard-working people who neither cheat nor lie. However, if your company brought a successful product to market, surely you know you are the exception, not the rule.</p> <p>To that extent, it strikes me as odd you offer individual anecdotal experience as evidence, apparently imagining that I have no personal knowledge of startups that turned out differently. I live in the Bay Area. I know guys who were in the Homebrew Computer Club with Woz at Stanford PARC before the beginning, and who've been involved in dozens of startups since then. </p> <p>My earlier post was meant to question Orac's hypothesis that right-to-try is merely ideological and will have no effect in the market. I was trying to frame an alternative scenario that <i>could</i> happen, based on the larger economic processes at work in pharmaceutical companies and investment capital.</p> <p>In this, the Fairfield example was meant as "this is how this can go while still being legitimated by politicians and the market" not "this is what happens all the time."</p> <p>I did not mean to disparage the sort of firm where LW worked, nor any of the many failed firms my acquaintances have been involved in. I was obviously not clear in that, and I apologize.<br /> -----<br /> As usual here, the central points of my argument are either ignored or simply not-comprehended, and the comments go ape-poop picking at some minor point to which someone takes personal offense. The inference lenses are staggeringly selective, distorting, presumptive and negative. As it happens, I know about Fairfield because I lived a half-hour down the road from there between '84-'88 and had a number of interactions with folks from Maharishi U. (Cue attack on "arrogance" of previous factual statement in 3-2-1...)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273879&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rN2EcXB0OI6VZSrr0SUceALZUfTFnhxL24UXHxaBbSs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3427/feed#comment-1273879">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1273880" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1414595635"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That was supposed to read: "this is how _far_ this can go while still being legitimated..."</p> <p>My brain to finger connection skips words all the time, and my eye to brain connection misses seeing the errors. Sorry about that. It is what it is, though.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1273880&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tLnGufuXIn5t-cmanYb_6CLbqU7GVSVP4L_bt7LS8SE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 29 Oct 2014 <a href="https://sci