Science Education &amp; Outreach https://scienceblogs.com/ en NPR's Science Friday with a (Second) Live Studio Audience https://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/09/28/nprs-science-friday-with-a-sec <span>NPR&#039;s Science Friday with a (Second) Live Studio Audience</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If you listened to <a href="http://www.sciencefriday.com/">Science Friday</a> on NPR's <a href="">Talk of the Nation today</a>, you may have heard Ira Flatow mention a question from "Prospero Linden"— that was me. I was there, live, along with a 30 or 40 other people in the studio audience:</p> <div style="margin-top: 1ex; margin-bottom: 1ex; width: 508px; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto"> <img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-ee2b9c1bb3b88bd3111cf0f3844842a0-sciencefriday20070928.jpg" alt="i-ee2b9c1bb3b88bd3111cf0f3844842a0-sciencefriday20070928.jpg" /></div> <p>For the last several weeks, Science Friday has been simulcasting over NPR and in Second Life, using Nashville's <a href="http://www.wpln.org">WPLN</a> audio stream for the purpose. (I had nothing to do with that!) Meanwhile, Ira Flatley, the 2nd life avatar of Ira Flatow (and his extensive staff), together with hosts, listen to and repeat on air the occasional question that comes from the sundry people present. Meanwhile, all of us carry on a text conversation about what we're hearing on the radio, sometimes with various tangents.</p> <p>If you're interested in this drop by next week. Science Friday is hosted in the Science School region in Second Life.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sb-admin" lang="" about="/author/sb-admin" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sb admin</a></span> <span>Fri, 09/28/2007 - 12:05</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-culture-0" hreflang="en">Science &amp; Culture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-education-outreach" hreflang="en">Science Education &amp; Outreach</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/second-life" hreflang="en">Second Life</a></div> </div> </div> <section> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/interactions/2007/09/28/nprs-science-friday-with-a-sec%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:05:00 +0000 sb admin 142808 at https://scienceblogs.com Book review : Storm World by Chris Mooney https://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/09/03/book-review-storm-world-by-chr <span>Book review : Storm World by Chris Mooney</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Read this book.</p> <p>First and formost for a book review: <i>Storm World</i> is a good<br /> read. You will not find yourself bogged down or forcing yourself to<br /> push through a book that's "good for you." You will keep reading<br /> because you will want to know more.</p> <p>As for the book itself: Mooney clearly has a point of view in the<br /> book, and does not hide it. However, that point of view is considered<br /> based on the evidence, and he also admits that it is not exactly the<br /> same as the point of view he expected to have when starting research for<br /> the book. This is not a polemic, it is not a "the sky is falling, we're<br /> all gonna die!" rant about hurricans and global warming. Even if you<br /> are one who is inclined to doubt all of that, I strongly encourge you to<br /> consider reading this book.</p> <p>The book is really about two things. First, it's a historical and<br /> present account of our increasing understanding of just what hurricanes<br /> are, including that there still is a lot about them that we don't<br /> understand. Second, it's an examination of the scientific process which<br /> is in many ways more honest and true to reality than many of the<br /> sugar-coated versions of the scientific process that we hear.</p> <!--more--><p>At times, I thought that this book could be subtitled "Scientists<br /> Behaving Badly." The book is full of tales of scientists personally<br /> attacking other scientists— magnified all the more because that is<br /> the sort of thing that the media loves to latch on to, blowing it out of<br /> proportion. However, the subtitle "Scientists Behaving Badly" really<br /> would not be appropriate for this book. While many of the scientists in<br /> this book make questionable decisions as <i>people</i>, what is absent<br /> from this book is any tales of <i>scientific</i> misconduct. Yes, some<br /> of the scientists have accused other scientists of ethical lapses, but<br /> Mooney does not see any of them of having ethical lapses. Even those<br /> scientists who have come to different conclusions about global warming<br /> than most of us are portrayed as ethical scientists with integrity by<br /> Mooney. This is one of the most refreshing things about this book. Too<br /> often, when you read a non-fiction book, those who are on the "other<br /> side" come out looking like villains. Science <i>does</i> progress<br /> despite the acrimony and personal conflicts. The process is not<br /> pleasant, and some end up suffering greatly, but ultimately it does<br /> work.</p> <p>Don't get me wrong: there are clear and unabashed villains in this<br /> book, but they are not the scientists; they are the bureaucrats who<br /> interfere with the scientific process, to the dismay of all of the<br /> scientists portrayed in the book. But even the most irrascable and<br /> controversial scientist in this book is one whom Mooney explicitly<br /> admires.</p> <p>Mooney does a good job of portraying how different scientific<br /> philosophies and approaches can lead to different conclusions— and<br /> tracing that back through a century of research about hurricanes.<br /> Indeed, another subtitle for the book might be "a clash between<br /> empiricism and modelling." Even there, however, Mooney comes to the<br /> conclusion that <i>both</i> approaches are utterly essential for<br /> science. From the earliest days of trying to understand the dynamics of<br /> hurricanes, it becomes clear that the empiricists and the modellers each<br /> had a <i>piece</i> of the picture right, and their mistake was in seeing<br /> the two in conflict rather than trying to figure out how to reconcile<br /> the two.</p> <p>Regarding the connection between global warming and hurricanes,<br /> Mooney makes several important points that too often are simply<br /> impossible to portray in the either-or, black-and-white,<br /> defeate-the-enemy soundbyte tone that permeates political debate today.<br /> There is a lot of subtlety. Yes, we don't really know if we've already<br /> seen an upturn in hurricane intensity because of human-induced globaly<br /> warming, but it remains a possibility. It's a strong possibility that<br /> things will get worse in the future because of that... and, thus, we<br /> should be planning for it, <i>even if</i> we admit that we're not<br /> certain about it. Too often one side says, "you don't really know this<br /> will happen, so why must we spend all that money?" That leads the other<br /> side to overselling the evidence as a way of fighting back. We need to<br /> learn how to deal with scientific uncertainty as a fact of life, and to<br /> plan for things that have a reasonable probability <i>without</i> later<br /> condemning the scientists who made predictions that do not come to<br /> pass.</p> <p>Mooney also makes the very clear point that even if it is true that<br /> the overall number and/or intensity of hurricanes have already been<br /> affected by human-induced global warming, it is impossible to say that<br /> any one individual hurricane was "caused" by global warming. Hurricanes<br /> happen! There are many causes to them. Global warming may well cause<br /> an increase in the intensity of hurricanes, but you can have a Category<br /> 5 hurricane without global warming. Once again, those who would see<br /> action on the possibility that global warming is threatening us through<br /> hurricanes oversell the evidence; global warming did not <i>cause</i><br /> Katrina. Unfortunately, those on the other side latch on to the<br /> absurdity of this to dismiss the connection altogether. The subtlety of<br /> increased risk does not sell well in a soundbyte political debate.</p> <p>I would love to see everybody in the world read this book. Not only,<br /> or even not primarily, because of the thoughtful treatment of an issue<br /> that should concern us all (the connection between hurricanes and<br /> global warming). But, rather, because it is a good exploration of how<br /> we should be dealing with figuring out what is most likely to be true by<br /> looking at scientific "consensus," and how science really does work and<br /> progress when it appears dysfunctional or contradictory to the outside<br /> observer. Too many treatments of science oversimplify the connection<br /> between theory and experiment, and how easy the process of<br /> "falsification" is. Too many treatments of science make it appear that<br /> all ethical scientists will agree when the results of an experiment or<br /> observation indicate that their position is wrong. In reality, the<br /> results of experiment are rarely so obvious, and often ethical<br /> scientists with different approaches will disagree for a long time. The<br /> way science is described in this book is much more the way science<br /> works in the real world than the way many of us claim it works when<br /> trying to explain it to the general populace.</p> <p>(Note: Chris Mooney is one of the co-bloggers of <a></a> href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/intersection/"&gt;The Intersection,<br /> anther blog (much more popular than this one!) hosted at<br /> scienceblogs.com. He's recently been blogging about some of the huge<br /> hurricanes of the current season, Dean and Felix.)</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sb-admin" lang="" about="/author/sb-admin" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sb admin</a></span> <span>Mon, 09/03/2007 - 04:45</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-culture-0" hreflang="en">Science &amp; Culture</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-education-outreach" hreflang="en">Science Education &amp; Outreach</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate" hreflang="en">Climate</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/global-warming" hreflang="en">global warming</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hurricane" hreflang="en">Hurricane</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-politics-0" hreflang="en">science &amp; politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-society" hreflang="en">science &amp; society</a></div> </div> </div> <section> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/interactions/2007/09/03/book-review-storm-world-by-chr%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 03 Sep 2007 08:45:00 +0000 sb admin 142803 at https://scienceblogs.com Accelerating Universe Talk Transcript & Followup https://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/07/31/accelerating-universe-talk-tra <span>Accelerating Universe Talk Transcript &amp; Followup</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I managed to get through my 15-20 minute "talk," and just as I threw it open for questions Second Life had a database problem and everbody in-world had to be logged out.... We got back in 40 minutes or so later, and I answered questions for a while for people who came back. However, if you were at the talk and wanted to ask questions but didn't come back, I'll be doing a follow-up Q&amp;A session tomorrow (Wednesday August 1) at 10AM PDT at the same location.</p> <p>Below, I've got a transcript of the talk I gave. Other than fixing some typos and merging things into paragraphs, I haven't edited what I said/typed.</p> <!--more--><hr /><p>What I want to do is spend about 15 minutes going over these slides I<br /> have hanging around the room. I've given 70 minute talks on this stuff<br /> before and still had more to talk about, so obviously this isn't<br /> everything :). What I'll try to do is explain how we actually *measure*<br /> the expansion history of the Universe, which is the evidence that led us<br /> to believe that the Universe is accelerating.</p> <p>First, though, a few brief words about myself, and then a few brief<br /> words on SL training. I got my PhD from Caltech in 1997, although I had<br /> basically finished all the work in Fall 1996. I worked on infrared<br /> spectroscopy of active galactic nuclei. It was when I went on to my<br /> post-doc that I started working on the Universe as a whole. I worked<br /> with Saul Perlmutter and the Supernova Cosmology Project at Lawrence<br /> Berkeley Lab. It was an exciting time to be there, for it was in 1998<br /> that we and our competitors both announced data that showed that the<br /> Universe was accelerating. This has been one of the truly exciting<br /> discoveries in Cosmology in recent decades. Not *quite* as exciting as<br /> the data from the 1960's that confirmed the Big Bang, but it's getting<br /> up there. This has also excited a lot of the particle physics<br /> community, because for the Universe to accelerate, it must be filled<br /> with something-- that we call Dark Energy-- that is not in the standard<br /> model of particle physics.</p> <p>So what I'll do now is talk about how one actually goes about measuring<br /> the expansion of the Universe, and figuring out that the expansion is<br /> accelerating. First, though, I want to make sure that people know how<br /> to zoom in on the slides I have. I just highlighted one side -- the<br /> border on the side is a lighter color. If you're sitting, you can use<br /> the rotate left and rotate right buttons (A and D) to look around and<br /> find it. Move your mouse over the highlighted slide, hold ALT, click<br /> and hold the left mouse button, and you can zoom in on the slide. (By<br /> moving the mouse.) The writing is too small to read from where you're<br /> sitting, but if you do that you should be able to read it. Is anybody<br /> having trouble reading the slide with the highlighted border?</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-7c6ffe15db1ae3146a28126292669bf9-acceluniv1.png" alt="i-7c6ffe15db1ae3146a28126292669bf9-acceluniv1.png" /></div> <p>Measuring distances in astronomy is really hard. There aren't tape<br /> measures long enough to measure the distances between stars.... As<br /> such, there are a whole slew of methods for measuring distances, and<br /> sometimes they come with huge uncertainties. One of the most reliable<br /> is the "method of standard candles," which this slide<br /> outlines. Conceptually, it's very simple. Basically, you find something<br /> whose luminosity -- the intrinsic amount of light it puts out -- is<br /> known. Then, from how bright it is, you can figure out how far away it<br /> is.</p> <p>On this slide, I've go two candles -- although a 100W lightbulb might<br /> be a better example, because two 100W lightbulbs from the same<br /> manufacturer will put out the same amount of light. The dimmer one is<br /> farther away-- and we can quantify that. The standard candle we used<br /> for the accelerating universe work was a Supernova.</p> <p>Everybody press ESC to reset your view ;) Hanging in the middle of the<br /> room is a "Nova/Supernova Progenitor."</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 400px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-e9d11898345e35d289f176a41653a722-snprogenitor.jpg" alt="i-e9d11898345e35d289f176a41653a722-snprogenitor.jpg" /></div> <p>There's a big red star that's bulged out on one side. Orbiting around<br /> the star is a white dwarf. The big red star is perhaps 100 to 1000<br /> times the radius of the Sun. The white dwarf is no bigger than the<br /> Earth. The gravity of the white dwarf pulls some of the outer layers<br /> off of the red star, which goes into an "accretion disk" swirling around<br /> the white dwarf.</p> <p>As material builds up on the white dwarf, it reaches a critical mass<br /> where it suddenly explodes and completely disrupts itself in a massive<br /> thermonuclear explosion. Each time one of these puppies explode, they<br /> put out pretty close to the same amount of energy. They are also, for a<br /> few weeks, as bright as a whole galaxy. Thus, we can see them very far<br /> away. These are the standard candles we've used.</p> <p>Move on to the next slide i've highlighted.</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-3d8c3b0945f3af585d7953dc0f546748-acceluniv2.png" alt="i-3d8c3b0945f3af585d7953dc0f546748-acceluniv2.png" /></div> <p>Astronomers have a time machine-- and, indeed, our time machine is way<br /> better than the one geologists and paleontologists have :). Because<br /> light moves at a well-known finite speed, if you see something far away,<br /> you are seeing it as it was in the past. However long the light took to<br /> reach you, that's how far in the past you're seeing it.</p> <p>When you go outside and look at the sun -- not a good idea, by the<br /> way, if you don't want to go blind -- you aren't seeing it as it is<br /> right now, you're seeing it as it was 8 minutes ago. The discovery of<br /> the accelerating Universe was based on supernovae that exploded as much<br /> as 8 or 9 billion years ago. Because we can measure the distance using<br /> the method of standard candles, we can also measure exactly how far back<br /> in time we're looking.</p> <p>That's the first piece of the puzzle. The second thing we want to<br /> measure is just how much the Universe has expanded since them time of<br /> the explosion.</p> <p>Move on to the next (now highlighted) slide.</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-081776f67c4dad0017723d5e9adaf325-acceluniv3.png" alt="i-081776f67c4dad0017723d5e9adaf325-acceluniv3.png" /></div> <p>Again, hold ALT, move the mouse over the slide, and hold the left mouse<br /> button to zoom in. Many of you have probably heard of redshift --<br /> probably because of the Doppler shift. Something that is moving away<br /> from us will show a redshift -- light (or sound) emitted by it will be<br /> shifted to longer wavelengths. Often, the redshift from the expansion<br /> of the Universe is described this way, but in fact that's not really<br /> what it is. In fact, the dynamics of the Universe as described by<br /> Einstein's General Relativity tell us that as the Universe expands,<br /> wavelengths of light expand at *exactly the same rate*. This is called<br /> the "cosmological redshift".</p> <p>In the diagram at the bottom of the slide, at "Time of emission" there<br /> are two galaxies; we are the one on the right, and the one we want to<br /> observe is on the left. At emission time, some light is emitted. Time<br /> passes, the light travels, and the Universe expands. By the time the<br /> light reaches us, the Universe has expanded -- so the galaxies are<br /> farther apart -- and the light's wavelength has also expanded; longer<br /> wavelength light is redder. The amount of the redshift we observe is a<br /> *direct* measure of how much the Universe has expanded.</p> <p>Go to the next slide, on the other side of the mollusk... :) [<i>Edit<br /> added to transcript: The mollusk was Joshua Linden</i>.]</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-8a3a1318b73cb4dc25cb9b5b80b99325-acceluniv4.png" alt="i-8a3a1318b73cb4dc25cb9b5b80b99325-acceluniv4.png" /></div> <p>The two things I've told you give us everything we need to measure the<br /> expansion history of the Universe. Measure the distance of a standard<br /> candle to figure out how far back in time we're looking; that's the X<br /> coordinate of a point on the graph. Measure the redshift to figure out<br /> how much the Universe has expanded since that time; you can use that to<br /> figure out the relative size of the Universe at the time of emission as<br /> compared to now. That relative size is the Y coordinate of each point.<br /> Plot all your points for supernovae at different distances -- that is,<br /> different lookback times -- and you have your expansion history.</p> <p>At that point, we can compare it to what theory predicts. On the next<br /> slides are the predictions from theory that we *thought* we were going<br /> to be comparing to when the project was started in the 1990's.</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-5f2cc82f7f24c08f9daaf0e0a0674250-acceluniv5.png" alt="i-5f2cc82f7f24c08f9daaf0e0a0674250-acceluniv5.png" /></div> <p>Basically, mass creates gravity; all the galaxies are pulling towards<br /> each other, which will tend to put the brakes on the expansion. If<br /> there is a *lot* of mass, there's a lot of gravity, so the expansion<br /> will be slowing down a lot. In that case, there may be enough mass to<br /> stop the expansion and cause the Universe to recollapse. On the other<br /> hand, if there isn't very much mass (the "low-mass" Universe), the<br /> expansion should be slowing down less, and the expansion will continue<br /> forever. However, because gravity is attractive, no matter what you<br /> should expect the expansion to be *slowing down*-- decelerating.</p> <p>Go to the last slide.</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 350px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-9094cd325bf31efa6110115262f598eb-acceluniv6.png" alt="i-9094cd325bf31efa6110115262f598eb-acceluniv6.png" /></div> <p>Again, hold ALT, move the mouse over the slide, push and hold the LMB,<br /> and move the mouse. When we really made the measurement, we can up with<br /> the result that was unexpected by most of us.... For the last 6 or 7<br /> billion years, the expansion of the Universe has been *speeding up*.</p> <p>A lot of people didn't believe this at first. One prominent theorist,<br /> Rocky Kolb, apparently said in one talk that "the Supernova people had<br /> better figure out what is wrong with their data, or somebody is going to<br /> get hurt." However, there were two independent teams that came up with<br /> the same result, so people took it seriously. Now, almost a decade<br /> later, independent methods have confirmed that it seems that the<br /> accelerating Universe measurement is correct.</p> <p>Because gravity is attractive, normal stuff can't make this happen. For<br /> the Universe's expansion to be accelerating, there must be *something<br /> else* in the Universe. It turns out that Einstein's General Relativity<br /> *does* allow for a very exotic material which will have (effectively) a<br /> negative gravitational effect. Today we call that Dark Energy. From the<br /> fact that the Universe's expansion is accelerating, we know that Dark<br /> Energy makes up 2/3 to 3/4 of the total energy density of the Universe.</p> <p>Wacky stuff.</p> <p>The big slide over the DJ's stage summarizes some of this again, and<br /> shows a bunch of the actual supernova data that I worked on back in<br /> 1996-1999 (and may also include some additional data form a 2003 paper I<br /> wrote -- I'm not sure).</p> <div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 400px; border:&lt;br /&gt;&#10;2px solid black; padding: 2px; margin-top: 1em; margin-bottom: 1em"><br /><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/wp-content/blogs.dir/421/files/2012/04/i-bdac6f48bfa60c77d149072ea9987e44-expansion_figure_only.png" alt="i-bdac6f48bfa60c77d149072ea9987e44-expansion_figure_only.png" /></div> <p>At any rate, I'll stop there -- that's the whirlwind tour of just how<br /> one goes about measuring the expansion history of the Universe.</p> <p>For the rest of the time we have, I'd be happy to answer questions about<br /> any of this, or about the discovery.</p> <hr /><p>...and right then was when the grid crashed. I couldn't have timed it better if I tried.</p> <p>If you didn't come back at about 11AM PDT to ask questions, drop by the same spot tomorrow at 10AM for a Q&amp;A.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sb-admin" lang="" about="/author/sb-admin" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sb admin</a></span> <span>Tue, 07/31/2007 - 09:39</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-physics" hreflang="en">Astronomy &amp; Physics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-science" hreflang="en">Astronomy Science</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/big-bang-cosmology" hreflang="en">Big Bang &amp; Cosmology</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-education-outreach" hreflang="en">Science Education &amp; Outreach</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/second-life" hreflang="en">Second Life</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474878" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185891616"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If only you could make a supernova progenitor hang in the middle of the room at a <i>real</i> talk...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474878&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fGTL0JPZsXLlLvhL1_HIVqccRvC_scV9kOUjTk_5nzQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 31 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474878">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474879" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185928509"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fun stuff...thanks for posting it!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474879&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bOEByl_n42js8g_SalNE-ijpAOmHR1d64jVGgTx9DwI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ngong (not verified)</span> on 31 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474879">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474880" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1186051105"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sadly, even when I try to use this fairly simple explanation for why we think the universe is expanding, my evangelical girlfriend looks at me like I'm crazy and says something akin to "that's ridiculous and so is the big bang."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474880&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iEAN1JbM6dMxgz296RuyCNyKbEG_4d7kfH1CWOyFys4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brando (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474880">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474881" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1186052450"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>...so ask her which was made first, the people or the animals? Then go read the first two chapters of Genesis....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474881&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ssh52p0V_lBUuH1G5yEffedmvOE6o9FHs2sRaoh6K1Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 02 Aug 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474881">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/interactions/2007/07/31/accelerating-universe-talk-tra%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:39:00 +0000 sb admin 142791 at https://scienceblogs.com A cynical take on a study about high school science https://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/07/27/a-cynical-take-on-a-study-abou <span>A cynical take on a study about high school science</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/07/math_its_good_for_you.php">Chad links</a> to <a href="http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/news_and_events/releases/science_07262007.html">an article</a> about a study that shows that good preparation in high school math helps students perform in all science disciplines in college, whereas studying one science in high school doesn't help their performance in other science disciplines in college.</p> <p>There are a few conclusions that are drawn. The article quotes people who suggest that the "Physics First" movement— that argues Physics should be taught first, with biology and chemistry later— doesn't hold water. Chad resonates with the article, having observed that college students often have woeful preparation in math, and that this disadvantage cripples them and prevents them from moving on.</p> <p>Let me propose another, cynical interpretation.</p> <!--more--><p>First, though, I do want to agree that a solid grounding in math is essential. I have observed, and have heard other faculty comment, that students come into college not understanding algebra. Oh, they probably scored well enough on standardized tests, and they know some of the tricks ("cross-multiplying" is a word that I hear students use a lot), but they don't really <i>understand</i> it. They recognize some of the patterns and know what to do, but by and large they don't know what they're doing. If you really understand algebra, you no longer think about cross-multiplying as a technique, because it becomes obvious.</p> <p>My mother taught high-school biology for many years. In her last few years of teaching, she moved into the middle school, and was teaching 8th grade physical science. One of the biggest concepts she tried to get across was the concept of density. She told me, dismayed, that many students wanted to memorize the <i>three</i> equations density=mass/volume, mass=density*volume, and volume=mass/density... even though, of course, they are just very simple algebraic manipulations of the one "definition of density" equation. She said, here they are in their pre-algebra classes (or, for the more advanced students, actual algebra classes) doing much more advanced things, solving quadratic equations, but they don't remember, or instinctively recoil at, doing the much more basic algebra that takes density=mass/volume into mass=density*volume.</p> <p>It's an issue.</p> <p>But let me suggest that there is another thing underlying the results of this study. That is, high school science is, in general, not taught the way it should be... and, college science is, in general, taught assuming students learned <i>nothing</i> in high school science.</p> <p>A couple of years ago, I gave a question on a sample test (not a real test, just a study guide) in my astronomy class that used the concept of density. (I was trying to get at an understanding of the fact that while stars themselves are very dense, galaxies have a very low density in comparison.) After I'd passed this out and students had a chance to look at it, one of the students asked me a question in that partially-aggressive manner that students use when they want to accuse you of something "unfair" without coming out and staying it. The question was, "Have we talked about density in this class?" (OK, it could have been more aggressive; I've had other students ask questions akin to, "When have we talked about density in this class?")</p> <p>My answer was, "No, but according to the admissions requirements you all took at least two years of science in high school. Density is a concept you learn in middle school science."</p> <p>The assumption that many, or most, students have is that when they come into a college science class, they are approaching science ab initio. Certainly English (and other) professors complain about how woeful student writing skills are... but we do assume that students come into college knowing how to put together a complex sentence. Even in math, while students believe "too much math" is a valid condemnation of a science course, in their math classes it's assumed that they know arithmetic, and indeed algebra is at many Universities considered to be a remedial course which doesn't satisfy any math requirements. And, yet, they come into science classes assuming that it's OK to have learned nothing in high school science. If college science teachers (at least in classes for non-majors) try to base or draw on any knowledge that they should have learned in high school, they're in trouble.</p> <p>This is a problem. Without impugning the very good high school science teachers out there (including my mother and some friends I've had), I do have this idea that a lot, if not most, of the high school science teaching out there is done poorly. Too many students have the idea that science is about memorizing facts and answers. Where did they get this idea? From each other, certainly, but I suspect also from standardized tests and from their high school science classes. Ideally, a good high school science class should impart, at least to the students who do well in the class, something about the process of doing science, and about what science is. Ideally, also, college classes would impart and test the same things. Alas, this is too rarely true. Too many non-majors college classes are also about memorizing and regurgitating facts and answers. If you remember some of them from your high school class on the same topic, you do well. If, on the other hand, <i>both</i> high school and college classes did a better job of teaching <i>thinking in the scientific mode</i>, then I predict that the results of this study would be quite different.</p> <p>I personally have no opinion on the "Physics First" movement. I sort of like the idea of teaching high school science in the biology, chemistry, physics order, because that's the order of "how advanced of math is needed," and as such it makes sense for students who've had more math to take chemistry and then physics. The "basis in physics" that the movement is after should be coming in a junior high "introduction to physical science" class. <i>All</i> of these classes should be basing what they do on things that students have learned previously; process, and a mode of thinking. College classes should be assuming that students did indeed learn <i>something</i> in high school.</p> <p>There's a lot of stuff to know in science, a lot of facts and answers. But what's both harder and more satisfying is learning the scientific mode of thinking, learning how to take given facts and correlations and how to draw conclusions or understanding from them.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sb-admin" lang="" about="/author/sb-admin" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sb admin</a></span> <span>Fri, 07/27/2007 - 07:13</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-education-outreach" hreflang="en">Science Education &amp; Outreach</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474826" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185539024"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Without impugning the very good high school science teachers out there (including my mother and some friends I've had), I do have this idea that a lot, if not most, of the high school science teaching out there is done poorly.</p></blockquote> <p>Hear, hear.</p> <blockquote><p>The "basis in physics" that the movement is after should be coming in a junior high "introduction to physical science" class.</p></blockquote> <p>My junior high science classes were marked by good, enthusiastic teachers and rotten textbooks. (It was a bit of a sport among the science-y set to see which of us students could find more mistakes in our books, just going on what we had learned already on our own.) Kids in Alabama did a thing called "integrated science", in which the science class had a few months of chemistry followed by a couple on astronomy, etc. If done well, this could be a very good plan: by covering multiple subjects, the students could learn about the unifying principles which connect all the topics. Unfortunately, the realization fell short of that ideal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474826&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OTnO8Js5o5ZcTAvtg8Gjc_RZ0SS4j1_XdyXF333tcsQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sunclipse.org" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Blake Stacey, OM (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474826">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474827" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185539292"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rob,</p> <p>I agree with the idea that the scientific method is not taught well in schools today. Very few kids or adults are aware that science is a process and not just a body of knowledge.</p> <p>I've told my own kids (ages 6 and 10) that the TV show <i>Mythbusters</i> does a better job teaching science than half of what they will learn in school, because <i>Mythbusters</i> starts with a hypothesis, and the experimenters work out a way to test it, and then evaluate their experiments.</p> <p>I suspect that my insistence on this has gotten at least one of my kids in trouble, as my kids are the sort to actually mention this in front of their science teachers. But them's the breaks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474827&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2gLGEYtqdU_5r9Md9dMupTxRagu3SRF_LiidMPRm9W0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jim Kiley (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474827">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474828" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185539946"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Unfortunately, the realization fell short of that ideal.</i></p> <p>Too often true.</p> <p>The truth is that it is <i>really hard</i> to implement this. I know that I've struggled with it in my introductory astronomy class.</p> <p>It's so easy to teach a recall class-- easier to teach, the students expect it so you get less pushback, easier for the students to figure out how to study for, easier to write tests, etc. etc. etc. When we get swamped for time, that's what we end up doing. Indeed, even though it's <i>bad</i> for education, that's what University professors <i>should</i> do: see <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/05/advice_for_junior_faculty_at_a.php">http://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/05/advice_for_junior_faculty_…</a></p> <p>(Short form: junior faculty at Universities are not judged by how well they teach, they're judged by grants and papers and, perhaps, student evaluations. As such, they should find the easiest way to get good student evaluations, and they shouldn't bother worrying about how to teach well-- that takes too much time, is too hard, and distracts you from things that will help you get tenure.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474828&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FUVlKWaUR5eSresgCPCLoz1Ub6Uc_-ZVNUtgEErWjOE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474828">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474829" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185541393"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Kids in Alabama did a thing called "integrated science", in which the science class had a few months of chemistry followed by a couple on astronomy, etc. If done well, this could be a very good plan: by covering multiple subjects, the students could learn about the unifying principles which connect all the topics. Unfortunately, the realization fell short of that ideal.</p></blockquote> <p>I <i>took</i> IS when I was in seventh and eighth grade in Alabama. (Say 1992-1994-ish, right after the program was introduced, I believe.) It consisted basically of watching entertaining "sciency" videos taken off of APT, then answering a few general questions based on the videos. The content of the videos was problematic, as well, given that the science content would be generalized into very vague areas like "shapes" or "waves" or "patterns"... Nice I suppose for a unification of knowledge, bad in the sense that we never delved into any topic very deeply at all.</p> <p>I don't know whether or not schools in Alabama are still doing this, nor what the program might be like today.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474829&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Soewrtszx-_-UlfBRImNe7q5kRRnGHL19h8TJyg_9Dg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Harper (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474829">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474830" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185542198"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm not sure if what you're saying holds true at my University, but I do agree with what you say about Math classes...every year I've had I've been expected to know at least a little bit from the year before.</p> <p>I could see how the study might still have one good conclusion, though: math theoretically should be used in just about every science, either in the way of statistics or more directly in equations as in Physics and some Chemistry (for a Math major I don't know science that well; I know physics the best, so forgive me if I over or understate the use of math in Chemistry/Biology...I feel safe, with my experience with Physics, saying it's pretty frequently used there.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474830&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DB_AoObQbwLJ2CHC6NcCtQZFnbVKnRrZ_eDfU93sj4Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://sccos.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">KKairos (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474830">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474831" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185542771"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I had only one good science course before I got to college. My high-school chemistry teacher was committed to giving us a proper education which often required him to go over the math we should have learned the year before.</p> <p>I went into college with a completely inadequate scientific education. I had to struggle to get up to the point I was expected to be for a couple of the intro classes because my college had several excellent science departments. I consider my high-school education to be above average in most other respects but the following sentence will tell you most of what you need to know about my science experience:</p> <p>My biology teacher was a creationist.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474831&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pBZ5kUDPPKnILXH0B6bPjU_8CQDgiPrcboLMB1CD76c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://noeticon.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brian Cooksey (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474831">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474832" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185543522"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I could see how the study might still have one good conclusion, though: math theoretically should be used in just about every science</i></p> <p>Heh... there's been this push for a while to have "writing across the curriculum." Indeed, some of the English teachers and such at Vanderbilt thought the scientists were cheating by justifying lab notebooks in class as "writing" -- and they were, but it was a ridiculous requirement that required cheating.</p> <p>I like the idea; writing is so important, and it does make sense to have it across the curriculum, within reason.</p> <p>I'd like to see "math across the curriculum."</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474832&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mNNuXKPyiUFNV_XsJXXITfdd9jSaKxU99rI0Huk_sXM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474832">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474833" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185544179"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was accepted at a good public university having taken two algebra classes, one biology class, and one "Earth science" class (taught by a misogynist) in my public high school. It's no wonder Astronomy 101 gave me fits, but even more of a wonder that I am still interested in learning and knowing about anything scientific. If our education system continues to present science and math as a dry collection of facts to be memorized by rote -- rather than understood, absorbed and enjoyed -- imagine what the state of the nation's industrial and scientific achievements will look like in another 25 years or so.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474833&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eP0u4RmoiLua-oNrfjFFOpV_9dCPYK6me8IqtyE9GYo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://hoipolloionparade.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PuckishOne (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474833">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474834" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185548372"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I try my best in my HS Physics classes to teach process, to teach scientific modes of thinking, to teach inductive reasoning, and to avoid at all costs the "collection of facts" approach. And I think I succeed, at least with most students. But my problem has always been assessment. I find it very difficult to write valid, reliable exam questions that assess students' understanding of *process* (and that I can grade in a reasonable amount of time). Sure, I evaluate students as they are doing inquiry-type experiments, and I read their lab reports, in which they are required to analyze data and reach a conclusion. But as we all know, students think that the only important outcomes of any class are the ones that are *on the exam*. Anybody with any suggestions?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474834&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4TzFkuFisaeSCx_DNGncPmVaCky1XCBgV5yzmbuAKCE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.iguanasuite.net" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kevin Fairchild (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474834">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474835" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185549093"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What exactly does "writing accross the curriculum" mean? When I went through, MIT had a requirement that you had to do a "communication intensive" something within your major. In physics, this meant giving presentations on labwork and writing a 20 page term paper for the third term of quantum.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474835&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N1ZcMKBKfYWktCiwJmM-V7qyCRm0vSeMSHcrfPXOxng"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474835">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474836" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185550614"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I find it very difficult to write valid, reliable exam questions that assess students' understanding of *process* (and that I can grade in a reasonable amount of time).</i></p> <p>Yes, I feel your pain. It's very tough to come up with that kind of thing.</p> <p>The way I've tried to do it is by asking questions that require students to think through things rather than asking them to remember something, or even just remember a procedure for solving a problem. But, yeah, it's real tough.</p> <p><i>What exactly does "writing accross the curriculum" mean?</i></p> <p>In principle, it's supposed to mean that we teach good writing in every course. In practice, it means that courses are mandated to have at least X pages of writing before they will be accepted by the college curriculum committee.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474836&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RGRKaJFhwDc6INmwqJGPoLDaRAUk_HCJbkzvkMtA2DY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474836">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474837" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185550947"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>My biology teacher was a creationist.</i></p> <p>Fear/Loathing</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474837&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CeC_Tz3M89nNSS18n6hw54iezj-17hrpl04HWYS3odY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474837">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474838" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185557469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"She told me, dismayed, that many students wanted to memorize the three equations density=mass/volume, mass=density*volume, and volume=mass/density... even though, of course, they are just very simple algebraic manipulations of the one "definition of density" equation. She said, here they are in their pre-algebra classes (or, for the more advanced students, actual algebra classes) doing much more advanced things, solving quadratic equations, but they don't remember, or instinctively recoil at, doing the much more basic algebra that takes density=mass/volume into mass=density*volume."</p> <p>We have first-year medical students (at an Ivy League university medical school) who need remedial work on how to figure out the relationship between volume of a liquid, concentration of a solute, and the total mass of the solute present in the liquid. Four years from now, patients will be relying on these people to save their lives.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474838&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A8Qnjoxi8y8q4tHNKLqkrh3rzLe5SkxFPvioDHx4tzo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">PhysioProf (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474838">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474839" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185563015"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>students come into college not understanding algebra. Oh, they probably scored well enough on standardized tests, and they know some of the tricks ("cross-multiplying" is a word that I hear students use a lot), but they don't really understand it. They recognize some of the patterns and know what to do, but by and large they don't know what they're doing.</p></blockquote> <p>When my son was ten, he came to me one day with a serious face, and asked if we could talk. I sat down with him, and he said, "Mom, tell me - what are logarithms <i>really</i>? I use them all the time, but <i>really</i> what are they?"</p> <p>I arranged for my son to meet with a friend, an algebgra and calculus instructor at the community college where I worked. When they emerged from the classroom, my friend said, "It's nice to have somebody who wants to learn. You know, I was able to teach your son more <i>actual math</i> in an hour than many of my students are willing to learn in a semester. They just want to memorize."</p> <p>That was more than 25 years ago. It sound like maybe things haven't improved much.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474839&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WDvcgpdYOBOExGdHWNuKlb3v2TvQKofbUosp5dqm98I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JuliaL (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474839">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474840" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185579482"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>""unfair" without coming out and staying it."</p> <p>"stating it" or "staying it?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474840&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aBdUWNIdqRCgWLIU0m0SU76sbxiQlysju2KmLrHVXWM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">2bc (not verified)</span> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474840">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474841" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185580214"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>stating it. Oops.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474841&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W4T9TQ_3T3Ns3lVM-1dtQvSUXrRVSIJShAX1l2hutyA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 27 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474841">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474842" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185634309"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I agree with you Rob, that there are lots of things that students <i>should</i> know. But, since I have children in public schools, I'm only too aware that the high school requirements for science and math vary a great deal. </p> <p>Colleges do have a minimum math requirement that students have to meet before they can take college science courses but I don't think that anyone would confuse the ability to pass the test with knowing how to use math in a practical setting.</p> <p>I would rather err on the side of ab initio instruction than exclude students who went to the wrong high school,</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474842&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MO6eD_zIg6x_A97Hfxvl0bhnlAzd-RUTfj7BE8uKqFA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/digitalbio" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sandra Porter (not verified)</a> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474842">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474843" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185636193"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm sure this isn't news, but the state of high school science and math education is deplorable. At the high schools in this part of the Bay Area, they are both afterthoughts. My youngest stepdaughter has been taking algebra classes from the football coach - he had to be teaching *something* to be able to coach at the HS. That's an improvement from the previous year, where she went through something like seven or eight teachers for her math class.</p> <p>Until we take the teaching of math and science seriously, assuming that college freshmen have had zero beyond very basic math isn't a bad move.</p> <p>My own HS education was extraordinarily hit or miss. I had a junior math teacher who can only be described as a draft dodger. On the other hand, my senior year math teacher (for Calculus 2) was the department head with a PhD, and a good teacher on top of it.</p> <p>Personally, I'd really like to see a lot of the math and science taught as a single course. Most algebra has some use in actual reality, like the density example. If we used words like "mass" and "volume" instead of variables like "x" and "y", I think we'd win over more students. I know I didn't get a lot of math until I had a science class to go with it...even in college. At HMC, the linear algebra class I had was extraordinarily dry. Okay, I learned a bunch about crazy thing to do with matrices and eigenvalues, and all that fun, but it didn't make sense until I took quantum. About two weeks into that class, the light bulb simply turned on.</p> <p>Hey Rob, ever consider teaching HS? Seriously - it might be much more rewarding than your current gig.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474843&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xW34MplEHmGg5lE3rBDUk4t1RoFHl3XiH2BNc-cv-co"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">David Williamson (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474843">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474844" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185642477"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I would rather err on the side of ab initio instruction than exclude students who went to the wrong high school,</i></p> <p>I realize -- but I wish we'd treat it the way we treat english and math. If a student doesn't show adequate preparation in either, there are "remedial" courses they have to take. (Not really remedial, but they are basic writing or math courses they have to take as prerequisites for the other courses, and these prerequisites generally do <i>not</i> count towards required numbers of distribution courses.)</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474844&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="E6t4PpCy85_Cir2bsX3h4LpOAB4r5JnUBRlUIYLvdk8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474844">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474845" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185642594"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Hey Rob, ever consider teaching HS? Seriously - it might be much more rewarding than your current gig.</i></p> <p>Though about it, but the fact that medical expenses are our #1 line item (above mortgage) means that we couldn't afford to live on a HS teachers' salary. In TN, HS teachers are really not paid well at all. It is true that my sister in CA made more as a high school teacher than I did as an assistant prof at Vanderbilt, but their mortgage payment is also something like three times mine (and more than our medical expenses).</p> <p>In any event, I have high hopes that my current gig (i.e. the new one -- Linden Labs) is going to be very stimulating and rewarding. There were a <i>lot</i> of rewarding things about being a college professor, but there were also a <i>lot</i> of active negatives.</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474845&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GmO7GJ6ZCM9EQceUpJ0qovpPZZJLT_mjFLBKq5fGPR4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474845">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474846" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185667657"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Someone talked about bad textbooks in one of the comments. If you are in the US, there are excellent undergraduate texts in math and the sciences which a high school student will be able to grasp. I am amazed by the beautiful illustrations in today's texts and the relatively lucid writing (compared with texts from 20 to 30 years ago). I don't think that the issue is about the resources that high school students have access to. </p> <p>The issue is whether students want to learn science. I feel that too many people are being forced to learn math and science who are not particularly interested in the physical sciences. The reason is purely economics. As a result you get disinterested students. And as soon as they realize they can't coast in your class you also get some aggressive students :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474846&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mIOQpC2jlcVGIXP94rRYhXypfGCVLItHkzgd5y5KoxE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Biswajit (not verified)</span> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474846">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474847" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185678487"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Biswajit -</p> <p>I don't think it's a problem of kids not wanting to learn math and science. The problem is, and has gotten worse with "no child left behind's" requirements to teach tests, that the way it is taught is exceedingly dry and boring. Were it not for the fact that I had a lot provided me outside of school, I would never have garnered an interest in math and science. Many kids don't get those kinds of external influences. All that they are exposed to, they're exposed to in school. Boring teachers, translates into no interest in either.</p> <p>Too, the pressure to do learn the way the curriculum requires, means that kids who think a little differently, or learn differently, get left behind. That happened to me in math. It turns out that I do really well with advanced maths. The problem was, that I couldn't get past algebra. I could do the problems, do them in my head for the most part. But the teachers wanted me to do it all their way. While I could write down the steps I took to complete problems, they weren't the right steps - damn the results. So I failed and wasn't allowed into advanced math or science as a result.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474847&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GvbQauFtJjjMZ4lqpoxBc-_lqRB5mjTSh3APn-uS7Ak"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://debrayton.blogspot.com/" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DuWayne (not verified)</a> on 28 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474847">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474848" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185729219"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I feel it was the biggest mistake of my high school career opting to take pre-calc in my senior year instead of calculus.</p> <p>Calculus was, for me, far easier than other branches of math, and it was like a beautiful new world opened up when I took it! I devoured three semesters of it when I went back to school, and I only wished I had been turned on to it earlier. </p> <p>I have little call for calculus in my daily life, alas, but I still use algebra practically every single day.</p> <p>I am, by the way, an artist. An artist who gets really peeved at hearing people bitching about math who understand neither its usefulness nor its beauty.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474848&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y_91v338p2bi-Yg7vHfvPWvGZaH2hGmVY38q7QwgVHw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Melissa G (not verified)</span> on 29 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474848">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474849" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185730313"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was a highschool physics teacher (and a maths and chemistry and biology and electronics teacher, on occasion, but more physics than anything else), in the UK. In the UK, students do all three sciences (in equal proportion) from the age of 5 (although, to be fair, it's not very complicated stuff that the 5 year olds are doing, as you might expect) to 16; at 16, they can choose to specialise in 3-5 subjects, which may include physics (most popular subject of all is normally maths, though, and biology is the most popular science). My experience of it is that where it's done well, the students leave school knowing a heck of a lot more physics than is the case for US students (even those that were taught well). However, it's hardly the case that it's always done well, particularly the physics component; there are plenty of individuals who manage to leave school at 16 with 11 years of physics behind them without appreciating, say, what inertia is, let alone understanding electricity.</p> <p>Another thing I'd note, which is almost completely tangential but which occurred to me recently in a conversation about homeschooling (which is common in this area, despite it having one of the best schools for miles around) is that most teachers, including me, think that they're good teachers. Clearly, however, a lot of those are mistaken. Perhaps even me. But I jest. Ho. Ho. The problem is that good teachers critically evaluate themselves and poor ones tend not to (because self-evaluation combined with a desire to improve tends to lead to improvement); if one is teaching in a field where there are not many candidates for employment, the incentive to self-evaluate in the necessary manner is rather reduced; in any case, as things go on and become more comfortable, critical self-evaluation is easy to let slide (it only leads to needing to change, after all). It's hard to get good physics teachers; there aren't that many physicists and most of them can earn a lot more money doing something else.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474849&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IhgF3bOwzx91AezSAFsv2lX2OmCSWeWXcrTFX-Sm7xo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://thecrossedpond.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">adam (not verified)</a> on 29 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474849">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474850" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185742727"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I am, by the way, an artist. An artist who gets really peeved at hearing people bitching about math who understand neither its usefulness nor its beauty.</i></p> <p>Heh -- but you're an artist with some post-graduate education in science :)</p> <p><i>It's hard to get good physics teachers; there aren't that many physicists and most of them can earn a lot more money doing something else.</i></p> <p>...and a lot of them aren't good teachers, either. Teaching and physics are two different skills. You have to understand physics to teach it, but you also have to know how to teach!</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474850&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ukKQLvMfNCQpttnNvZwbNse7GnHlXqIQfgoqiK-LXIg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.pobox.com/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 29 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474850">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474851" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185789962"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Heh -- but you're an artist with some post-graduate education in science :)</i></p> <p>This does not change the fact that, intrinsically, math rules. =D</p> <p><i>Teaching and physics are two different skills. You have to understand physics to teach it, but you also have to know how to teach!</i></p> <p>You know, I was about to go off on a description of my high school physics experience, about how he was a brilliant man but his teaching was abstruse. But the more I think about it, the more I realize I learned-- and RETAINED!-- from his classes! Astounding. I'm a little freaked out, in fact, and am going to go conduct a ripple tank experiment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474851&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zaMvC6Ye2sWbpT0HsqxXubr--dnNiD3qfI4ObM6VFSg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Melissa G (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474851">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474852" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185805457"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><b>mollishka:</b></p> <blockquote><p>What exactly does "writing accross the curriculum" mean? When I went through, MIT had a requirement that you had to do a "communication intensive" something within your major. In physics, this meant giving presentations on labwork and writing a 20 page term paper for the third term of quantum.</p></blockquote> <p>Hey, don't knock the CI requirement! I'm about to recycle my quantum term paper for about six blog posts. ;-)</p> <p><b>Melissa G:</b></p> <blockquote><p>I feel it was the biggest mistake of my high school career opting to take pre-calc in my senior year instead of calculus.</p></blockquote> <p>For me, and for everyone else I've met, "pre-calculus" was a waste of time. My coworker in the next office (a fellow MIT physics major) went through pre-cal his junior year of high school in Florida, just as I did in Alabama, and he says that he knew less math coming out than he did going in.</p> <p>My pre-cal class consisted of rehashing the material we had the year before (in "Algebra II/Trig"), plus a couple weeks on limits. Now, nobody explained <i>why</i> we'd be interested in these "limit" things, and in almost all of the problems we were given — busy-work if I've ever seen it — one could evaluate the limit just by plugging the desired <i>x</i>-value into the given equation. The rest of the problems were really the definition of the derivative: you just had to take the limit as <i>h</i> tends to zero of [<i>f</i>(<i>x</i> + <i>h</i>) - <i>f</i>(<i>x</i>)] / <i>h,</i> for some polynomial or trigonometric function <i>f.</i> Now, if you already knew what derivatives were, and you had learned the basic rules which come on the inside front cover of a calculus textbook, you could do all these problems in a single line of work — and get them right every time — while everybody else was spending six lines on each one and making mistakes all over the place.</p> <p>Of course, if you did this, you were marked down for "not doing the work the way we were taught in class."</p> <p><b>DuWayne:</b></p> <blockquote><p>The problem is, and has gotten worse with "no child left behind's" requirements to teach tests, that the way it is taught is exceedingly dry and boring.</p></blockquote> <p>The requirement that AP classes "teach to the test" effectively ruined most of the "advanced" classes I was able to take in high school. Because the final exam can only include questions which can be asked on a standardized test, and since time pressure prevents teachers from covering anything which couldn't appear on that exam, the classes are horribly constrained, not just in terms of material but also with regard to the <i>kinds of problems</i> which can be presented and the <i>styles of problem-solving</i> which can be addressed.</p> <p>It's nice to know that NCLB has spread the disease which ruined the "advanced" classes to everybody else.</p> <p>Got to go — category-theory seminar!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474852&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jqwO6M6iO-KH3IMDrSDmBEJxQUYlGyjWttsiAupwDls"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sunclipse.org" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Blake Stacey, OM (not verified)</a> on 30 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474852">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474853" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185806517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Hey, don't knock the CI requirement!</p></blockquote> <p>I'm not knocking it... I think it was great! And you'd be amazed how many people from elsewhere get to grad school having never used LaTeX or having given a science-y presentation.</p> <p>As for "pre-calculus" ... I'm sitting here wondering why my pre-college education didn't have a stronger emphasis on linear algebra.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474853&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ggO7IIYat35Uu2vfr-bCbMK9qKBUwjWKEnT8UCp427k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 30 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474853">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474854" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185826683"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rob, thanks for saying your mom was a good science teacher. Now I am teaching kids one on one and following cognitive and neuroscience, especially as related to math thinking and learning. Watch the next 20 years for the development of good math pedagogy - the methods for investigation are available and there is money for research. Lots is already done. But good research does take time, and translation to pedagogy takes longer. In the meantime, a rare few do it intuitively. You and your correspondants have some good ideas. And I, for one, do support "math across the curriculum." However it gets interpreted, it will help, especially in elementary and middle school, where so many attitudes get established. Mom</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474854&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VsMB2z353LR0I9cZuE3v8J-yTQhoCgKsye7mG0pko20"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">nancy knop (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474854">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474855" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1185828863"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Too many students have the idea that science is about memorizing facts and answers. Where did they get this idea? From each other, certainly, but I suspect also from standardized tests and from their high school science classes.</p></blockquote> <p>I think that idea comes from much earlier, from elementary school. From what I recall, science was basically a collection of interesting words, facts, and theories. Even the "scientific method" was something to be memorized. But then, elementary schools have other things to worry about too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474855&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SkOsBRTRVwc1_pv3qHmcxs3jy34u6HdzrqHkfUehfoA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">miller (not verified)</span> on 30 Jul 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474855">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2474856" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1186095342"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I do have this idea that a lot, if not most, of the high school science teaching out there is done poorly.</i></p> <p>Spoken like someone who has not taught high school science, perhaps? I have not either, but I have known enough teachers to know that there are many pressures at work against them, and you're not describing any of them.</p> <p>Dan</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2474856&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wboem4R19PeAWGMJMTcLAkklKvxK3u_9rez3OxGO1HY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dan (not verified)</span> on 02 Aug 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2474856">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/interactions/2007/07/27/a-cynical-take-on-a-study-abou%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:13:00 +0000 sb admin 142787 at https://scienceblogs.com Undergraduate research : a key (essential?) component of a college science education https://scienceblogs.com/interactions/2007/04/30/undergraduate-research-a-key-e-1 <span>Undergraduate research : a key (essential?) component of a college science education</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Following <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/04/its_the_research_that_matters.php">Chad</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2007/04/survery_of_undergrad_research_1.php">Jake</a>, I want to jump off from an <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/316/5824/548">article in Science</a> about undergraduate research. It's always nice when some sort of survey confirms one's preexisting biases....</p> <p>In short, the survey found that performing research increased undergraduates' interest in science and technology fields (so-annoyingly-called "STEM" disciplines, for Science Technology Engineering Mathematics). Such undergraduates were also more likely to go on to advanced degrees, although here the causality isn't necessarily clear. The survey did find that students with higher grades tended to be more likely to get involved in research; this raises at least the possibility that "getting involved in research" and "going on to an advanced degree" are affected by a common cause, and that the former doesn't necessarily increase the probability of the latter.</p> <p>Of great importance was the fact that undergraduate research seemed to improve the confidence and future success of underrepresented minorities and women. I'm not sure I can tell you what is particularly "white male patriarchy" about classroom performance, but if this is a way to help people realize their true abilities in science regardless of their ethnic background, then it could be an important component in the continuing problem of minorities and women in science. (Indeed, the title of the <i>Science</i> article is "The Pipeline: Benefits of Undergraduate Research Experiences.")</p> <!--more--><p>I had very good undergraduate research experiences myself. I was very lucky to spend all four summers after each of my four college years working in nuclear physics at the 88" cyclotron at Lawrence Berkeley Lab. I think that the people there were happy with me— and that's why I was hired back on subsequent summers. But I cannot deny that at least that first year, it was family connections that gave me the opportunity to get in the door. I also did astronomical research my senior year at Harvey Mudd, working with Shane Burns on measuring the distance to galaxies using the Surface Brightness Fluctuations method. Nothing publishable came out of that, and the result of the research program was our own understanding of how to use the method— but the experience itself was invaluable to me.</p> <p>I'm going to stick to Physics and Astronomy, since that's my own field, even though the <i>Science</i> article is more general. If you think about it, there are (at least) two things that go by the name "Physics." The first is a body of knowledge. Call it the current state of our understanding of Physics. The second is a field of study, a potential career. The way college education is set up, we do a <i>far</i> better job teaching the former than the latter. Almost all of our classes, even the lab classes, teach what is known and understood in Physics, what we have learned. There is, traditionally, very little or no education in how one goes about being a physicist.</p> <p>Undergraduate research is the best place to learn something about the latter. It may be that you love the physics, but don't love doing the physics. Wouldn't it be nice to figure that out from your undergraduate education? Or, vice versa, it may be that you struggle with some of the concepts of physics, but you have a true talent in contributing to the body of knowledge of physics. Wouldn't it be nice to figure <i>that</i> out before you write off the very notion of going on to graduate school?</p> <p>I would even like to see undergraduates in Physics who don't go in in Physics to get involved in research. Again, lab classes are often useful or even essential, but are very different things. It would help if people who are "out there" as senators and lawyers and teachers and so forth had some idea what it was like to be an actual practicing physicist.</p> <p>I've advised a number of undergraduate research projects myself, and have had four students in the last four years graduate with honors theses; all four are now in graduate school somewhere. I'm also on a committee at Vanderbilt that gives out a <a href="http://www.physics.vanderbilt.edu/vuprize">prize for undergraduate research</a> each year. Let me tell you, reading some of those applications is intimidating. Last year's winner was the first author of a <i>Nature</i> paper (the cover story, even), and was a paper I was already familiar with as a result of it having been cited by a number of the telescope time requests I'd read the previous week. For some of these applications, I'm wondering: should we give these students a prize, or should we give them a Master's degree?</p> <p>It is true that undergraduate research is like graduate research in the first few years: often, perhaps most of the time, it takes <i>more</i> time for the professor than the professor gets back. Certainly a lot of what the students are doing we could in less time than it takes for us to teach them how to do it. I've heard this from other sources as well, so I know I'm not just blowing smoke here. However, I view it as an investment. Some of the students, after a while, do get to the point where they are making real contributions. But, also, I view it as a key part of my mission as a physics professor to getting undergraduates, as well as graduate students, involved in research. As I said, it should just be a standard part of an undergraduate physics education.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/sb-admin" lang="" about="/author/sb-admin" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sb admin</a></span> <span>Mon, 04/30/2007 - 11:19</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/science-education-outreach" hreflang="en">Science Education &amp; Outreach</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/physical-sciences" hreflang="en">Physical Sciences</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177948278"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Due to indecisiveness and attending a small college, I didn't really have much an opportunity to do undergraduate research. So I got hired after graduation as a "junior scientist", where I just did 40 hours a week of research for a year. This was a great test to see if I liked it and it got me in the door for grad school. Still, I think it was pretty lucky - something of a rare opportunity.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wZjap0WBY-Z2B6F-ECFc9KImPx9_zwGJJ4svfxFetVk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jeffk (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177949017"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'll probably have more to say on this later, but for now:<br /> the distinction between being interested in/good at/enjoying learning about physics and actually doing physics are two very different things. The first is addressed in classes, and the assumption many make is that it immediately implies the latter; furthermore, the converse assumption is usually made: if an individual is not good at learning physics [in a classroom setting], then they will not be good at <i>doing</i> physics [i.e., doing research and adding to the general body of knowledge]. Now, while to an extent there is a correlation between the two, the fact remains that one does not imply the other; this is why it's not unheard of for good researchers with poor grades to have trouble getting into grad school, while it's also not unehard of for people who've "just always been good at physics" to decide halfway through graduate school that they loathe the idea of spending the rest of their lives playing with e.g., galaxies, and they'd rather go play on Wall Street.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OQS3b6v4PYuCjCE-AbJlryJPOzj7PrmSyWL8U7EK9W4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177949085"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>jeffk: that's precisely one reason why lots of [summer] REU programs focus on trying to attract students from non-research institutions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5-CjSFOgrURW2MvHd05tzIZ1KI0L0AuPEPjQu6ta1qg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177950282"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Molishka -- exactly right.</p> <p>Indeed, sometimes it's after.</p> <p>Among researchers, it's often a serious taboo to admit that you don't really like research. Indeed, at most institutions, if you say you are as interested in and as rewarded by the teaching as the research, it's like admitting to a horrible social disease. But, why <i>should</i> everybody love it?</p> <p>I was talking to a woman who is currently a post-doc in astronomy, and who is about to leave the field. The main reason: she's figured out that she doesn't like research enough to focus too much on it. I asked her a little about it, and she had some thoughtful things to say about it. I'm not sure I could reproduce them all here, but the things she identified were indeed features of research. One was too much fiddling with annoying details. Another was the open-endedness of it. You don't just do stuff and get stuff right, you plot everything you can think of against everything else to see if anything emerges. I personally really like that aspect, but I can see where it would be frustrating for others.</p> <p>It's always too bad to see a bright young person leave astronomy-- particularly when it's a woman, given our current imbalance-- but I'm convinced that this woman is making the right decision for her. And, unless there are big things she wasn't telling me, she really was leaving because hyperfocus on research wasn't her thing, not because of some horrible gender issue.</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7wnp51wFLbjv8Pd0qyC-x88BCoO0mnkw0SQzZG1DXy4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://brahms.phy.vanderbilt.edu/~rknop" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177951124"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes, I'm aware of REU programs. My problem is that I didn't really fall into physics with any seriousness until my senior year as an undergraduate, and - lazy as this sounds - at the place I was in at the time, I would have been much more likely to do summer research had I been at a research institution where I would have been much more likely to stumble into it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="DdyebiHr2v1M9eoWx5YX7d90J0rLNX7N2fAuDhZ6_Os"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jeffk (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177952794"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry, my eyes tend to glaze over when people start talking about gender, so I'll just repeat the comment I made over on Chad's blog:</p> <blockquote><p>Getting undergrads involved in research can be beneficial in the other direction as well: it's better to realize you don't want to do research for the rest of your life while you're still in college rather than halfway through grad school.</p></blockquote> <p>I guess part of my point is, especially as someone who loves research and abhors classes, is why the hell anyone would go to grad school thinking they are going to make a career out of doing research when they don't actually <i>enjoy</i>, you know, doing research. It's not like they're doing it <a href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com/2007/02/i-do-it-for-money.html">for the money</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RzmuWXP60AJVBD4uCTToTs1YHGOe8dWNfyEwiVtd_bM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1177954830"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Indeed, if you want to be rich, there are better ways to go.</p> <p>Many people don't find out that they don't want to do research for the rest of their lives until they're in grad school. And, indeed, at every school you always have some people who choose to leave with a Master's Degree, rather than finish the PhD, because they come to realize just that.</p> <p>-Rob</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A2VhZkI4YaM9TdJJoQ62V1gXA8IAuQy1khICN_2jMI0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.scienceblogs.com/interactions" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rob Knop (not verified)</a> on 30 Apr 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1178025028"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>But, ideally, that wouldn't be the case. The idea is that a lot of time (and resources) are invested in training a graduate student and getting them up to speed; typically people realize research isn't for them right around the time that one would expect this investment to start paying back. I really think that if said students had more exposure to what research really entails as an undergrad, then, on average, they would be able to figure it out <i>before</i> applying to graduate school, and those admissions slots/funding/etc. could go to someone who actually wants it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BohBUxjUf6TVFqi2V_7XjJWqtAf_VWdn22jwxcOygcg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://mollishka.blogspot.com" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mollishka (not verified)</a> on 01 May 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-2473746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1178342182"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I really really agree with this. I was able to be a part of two research projects and worked for several year at a University of Wisconsin telescope. I contributed actual data to a real project that resulted in at least one published paper... I'm very proud of that :) </p> <p>Honestly though, you can't go wrong. If you go on to grad school you will be better prepared. If you don't, so what? You presumably had a good experience and learned something about how research is done. </p> <p>Although frankly, I think they ought to be teaching undergrads a lot more. My astrophysics BS came with only 8 required astronomy credits, no required GR class. I would never have analyzed real spectra if I hadn't done undergrad reasearch and I never would have seen a professional grade telescope if I hadn't gotten a job as a telescope operator. </p> <p>Once, just out of curiosity I looked up the course guide for an astrophysics degree at some UK school (I don't remember which anymore) and the difference was mind-boggling. They had math classes taylored just for physics students! Courses on GR, even some on computational physics and computer modeling! I felt cheated. Those kids were getting practical experience <i>and</i> much more in depth classwork, while I was begging for undergrad jobs and filling humanities requirements. </p> <p>(Nothing against the breadth education or the humanities, I just think it came at the expense of classes more relevent to my major.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=2473746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VnZrFEb3r-ZLX1ZaSLNMjvofM2QDLuG16IIcWqdUvp8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Leni (not verified)</span> on 05 May 2007 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/34920/feed#comment-2473746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/interactions/2007/04/30/undergraduate-research-a-key-e-1%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:19:00 +0000 sb admin 142733 at https://scienceblogs.com