Real Time With Bill Maher https://scienceblogs.com/ en Same as it ever was: Antivaccine crank Bill Maher loves him some HIV/AIDS quackery https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/02/03/same-as-it-ever-was-antivaccine-crank-bill-maher-loves-him-some-hivaids-quackery <span>Same as it ever was: Antivaccine crank Bill Maher loves him some HIV/AIDS quackery</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I know I must be getting older because of Friday nights. I also know that I'm getting older because (1) there was no new post yesterday and (2) even today this post will look familiar to a significant number of our readership. Mea culpa, but trying to put the finishing touches on two R01 grants I've been working on takes a toll. Who knew? Things should get back to normal tomorrow or Friday at the latest. Be that as it may, let's get back to Fridays. After a long, hard week (and, during grant season, in anticipation of a long, hard weekend of more of the aforementioned grant writing), it's not infrequent that my wife and I order pizza, plant ourselves in front of the TV, and end up asleep before 10 or 11 PM. Usually, a few hours later, between midnight and 3 AM one or both of us will wake up and head upstairs to bed, but not always. Sometimes it's all Friday night on the couch.</p> <p>Last Friday was a bit different. It wasn't different in that I did fall asleep on the couch sometime around 10 PM. However, unlike the usual case, when I woke up around 1:30 or 2 AM to head upstairs I was stone cold wide awake, feeling like Alex in <cite>A Clockwork Orange</cite>, eyes held wide open. So I did what I do when insomnia strikes. I popped up the computer and checked my e-mail and Facebook. Immediately, I saw messages asking me if I had seen <cite>Real Time With Bill Maher</cite> that night and, oh boy, I really should watch Maher. Apprehensive but curious, I fired up the DVR and watched.</p> <p>And, shortly after the monologue, was totally appalled by this;</p> <iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dYiq0-M1MDU" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><p> Funny, how the segment hasn't yet been posted to Bill Maher's YouTube page, as many of his interviews are. If he ever does post it, I'll switch out the video above for the "official" source. Somehow, though, I doubt that the video will ever be posted, the reason being that it contains an embarrassingly fawning 10 minute interview with "Dr." Samir Chachoua, better known (at least to skeptics) as Charlie Sheen's HIV quack. Somehow, when Charlie Sheen was on <cite>The Dr. Oz Show</cite> a couple of weeks ago, other things were going on and I didn't blog about it. Fortunately, <a href="http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charlie-sheens-hiv-quack/">Steve Novella did</a>. Now, with Sheen's very own quack who failed him being fawned over by Bill Maher, it gives me a chance to take down three birds with one stone: Bill Maher, Dr. Oz, and, of course, Sam Chachoua. Sadly for Bill Maher, America's Quack Dr. Mehmet Oz comes off looking a lot better than he does, and that's saying something.</p> <!--more--><h2>Prelude: Charlie Sheen does <cite>The Dr. Oz Show</cite></h2> <p>When Charlie Sheen first <a href="http://www.today.com/health/charlie-sheen-reveals-hes-hiv-positive-today-show-exclusive-t56391">announced that he was HIV-positive</a> on the <cite>Today Show</cite> in November, it appeared to be an announcement that surprised exactly no one. Nor was it particularly surprising that he only went public because he had been discovered. As has been the case with any celebrity diagnosed with HIV, Sheen's revelation was an excellent opportunity to point out how HIV is no longer a death sentence and can be managed with a very effective cocktail of anti-retroviral drugs, such that the life expectancy of HIV-positive people is approaching normal. It was also a great opportunity to point out yet again that, if there is any one disease in our lifetime that demonstrates the power of science-based medicine, it is AIDS. Back when I was in medical school and early into my residency HIV was basically a death sentence. Patients, once diagnosed with full blown AIDS, did not survive long. Once diagnosed as HIV-positive, most progressed within several years to full blown AIDS (although some patients progressed very slowly or not at all, which helped to fuel the rise of the <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=_mtDBCDwxugC">HIV/AIDS denial</a>, a pseudoscientific belief system that claims that HIV does not cause AIDS). By the mid-1990s, a mere 15 years or so since the syndrome was first defined and only a decade or so after the identification of HIV as the cause of AIDS, there was effective antiretroviral therapy. Now, 32 years after the identification of HIV, HIV-positive people can expect to live a relatively long time, as long as they manage their disease and take their medications.</p> <p>It sounds easy, but I realize that for patients it's not. The drugs must be taken according to schedule, and some of them have nasty side effects. It's not surprising that some people, when their viral titers fall to undetectable, might think they can get away with stopping their medications. It's similar to patients stopping their antibiotics when they start to feel better, letting their infections come roaring back, or <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/03/12/reason-com-defends-the-medical-neglect-of-sarah-hershberger/">parents of children facing two years of chemotherapy</a> thinking that if the first course drives the tumor into remission the child doesn't need the remaining courses. It's human nature, and apparently it's just what Charlie Sheen fell prey to. With HIV, the drugs can cause spectacular falls in viral titers to the undetectable range, but that doesn't mean that the virus is gone. HIV can "hide" within certain cells in the body, where the drugs don't eradicate it. Stop the drugs, and it will reemerge. That's what Charlie Sheen did.</p> <p>Enter Dr. Oz.</p> <p>About three weeks ago, Dr. Oz and Charlie Sheen's doctor, Robert Huizenga, staged an on-air "intervention" because apparently Sheen had gone off his HIV medications and sought out a doctor in Mexico who claims to be able to cure cancer, HIV, and all manner of diseases. (Don't they all?) This doctor was—you guessed it—"Dr." Samir Chachoua.</p> <p>Initially in the segment, Dr. Oz, with Sheen's permission, shows a graph of Sheen's viral load, which was 4.4 million/mL. Treatment was begun on July 19, 2011, and by December 7, 2011 Sheen's viral load was zero, undetectable. There it stayed for three and a half years. Here's one video of it:</p> <div align="center"> <iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gE5qC4mx2Yg" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></div> <p>The official videos are <a href="http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/dr-oz-exclusive-charlie-sheen-1-on-1-part-2?video_id=4700301498001">here</a> and <a href="http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/dr-oz-exclusive-charlie-sheen-1-on-1-part-2?video_id=4700357502001">here</a>.</p> <p>One thing that came out in this segment is the sort of thinking that leads to a decision as bad as Sheen's. He defends his action by saying that he didn't view it as "Russian roulette" (actually, his odds with Russian roulette would have been better) and says he's presenting himself as a "guinea pig" and that he doesn't recommend that anyone else do what he did.</p> <p>Dr. Oz tracked down this Dr. Chachoua and found pretty much what I found (more on that later), namely that there isn't much to find out about him online. He managed to get Chachoua on the phone, where Chachoua claimed that Charlie Sheen is the first adult in history to go HIV negative and that conventional medicine has never done that. He even went further and said that Sheen's count went to zero after taking just his treatments. It's a rather remarkable claim, given that to prove it you'd need a lot of long term follow-up to show that Sheen's HIV didn't return for a long period of time after stopping his antiretrovirals and that antiretrovirals are very good at driving viral load to zero. We just know that the virus, although eradicated from the bloodstream, is "hiding" elsewhere, ready to emerge.</p> <p>To get an idea of the magical thinking going on here, Sheen describes an "experiment" in which he mixed his blood with blood drawn from two friends, incubated it, and noted that all three samples had undetectable levels of HIV, an experiment that tells us exactly nothing. Perhaps the most shocking revelation from the Oz segment was that Chachoua drew some of Charlie Sheen's blood and injected himself with it, an act so reckless and stupid that it's hard to believe any physician would do it. Sheen also pointed out that this was not blood from a venipuncture, but rather drawn from a "lump" on his elbow (which sounded like a hematoma from an injury), which means it was old blood.</p> <p>Through this segment, I kept asking two questions, which were never answered. First, when did Sheen stop taking his meds? Chachoua claimed that Sheen was HIV-positive again, but the graph shown in the segment showed Sheen HIV-negative as recently as December 3, 2015. So when was he suddenly "HIV-positive" again? December 3, 2015 to January 12, 2016 (when the show aired) is only six weeks. In any case, at the end of the segment, Dr. Huizenga (who looks just like the way I pictured him, all spray-tanned and with perfect hair) implores Charlie Sheen to start taking his medications again and makes a very moving speech about how HIV used to be a death sentence but isn't any more. In response, Sheen promised to start taking his meds on the flight home, asking, "What am I, an idiot?"</p> <p><a href="http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/charlie-sheens-hiv-quack/">As Steve noted</a>, the whole segment was ethically dubious, but probably good television, as was the segment where <a href="http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/dr-oz-exclusive-charlie-sheen-1-on-1-part-2?video_id=4700318845001">Oz took Sheen to a morgue</a> to show him what drugs and alcohol can do to one's organs. Part of the answer as to when Sheen stopped his meds appears in a <a href="http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/dr-oz-exclusive-charlie-sheen-1-on-1-part-2?video_id=4700360331001">segment following him around</a> as he visits Dr. Huizenga and to the Scripps Research Institute to interview a researcher about vaccines, who explained how HIV "hides" in the genome of certain cells in the body, to reemerge if HIV medications are stopped. Not surprisingly, there's a trip to Dr. Miles Farr, described as a "renowned integrative HIV specialist" (in other words, someone who combines quackery with science based medicine) and who has his acupuncturist give Sheen a session of what looks like auricular acupressure. It's after this that he admits that he has been off his medications for about a week and "feels great." It's not clear when this segment was taped, but, given that he tells Oz that he's still off his meds, it's unlikely that it was taped much more than a month or so before the show aired. So, whatever Chachoua says, Sheen was not off of his medications very long, fortunately. Unfortunately, just before going on the show, Sheen <a href="http://www.buzzfeed.com/virginiahughes/goat-milk-cure">discovered that his viral load had started to rise again</a>, which is likely what led to his agreeing to go back on his meds.</p> <p>Overall, I'm glad that Sheen is (apparently) back on his antiretroviral medications, but there are so many unanswered questions that would better allow me to put things into proper perspective. Obviously, Chachoua's claims that Sheen was rendered "HIV-negative" with his treatment are worthless without independent verification and long-term follow-up. After all, I could give Charlie Sheen the proper cocktail of antiretroviral drugs and then, after his viral load drops to zero, tell him he's HIV negative. It'd be meaningless without long term follow-up, because the virus eventually starts replicating again.</p> <p>So before I get to Bill Maher, who is this Samir Chachoua, anyway, and what is his treatment?</p> <h2>Samir Chachoua and the goat milk cure</h2> <p>Oddly enough, before Sheen was on Dr. Oz's show, I had never heard of Samir Chachoua before. I thought I knew all the major quacks out there, but obviously that's a conceit. I keep encountering new ones every month. Naturally, I went straight to <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com" rel="nofollow">Chachoua's website</a>, which had many of the red flags of quackery right there on the first page, starting with this a statement that "There is no disease you cannot access. No disease you cannot improve. Nothing is incurable. No situation is ever so hopeless that you stop trying." Apparently his "cure" for cancer and HIV is based on something he calls "nemesis theory":</p> <blockquote><p>The nemesis theory first postulated by me in 1980 was that – "for every disease there is an anti-disease organism capable of destroying it and restoring health." It is not surprising therefore that every case of spontaneous remission investigated shows that cancer or AIDS or other disease may disappear miraculously even for a short period of time after infection with its nemesis.</p></blockquote> <p>Of course, this is far more a statement of philosophy than science. There is no <em>a priori</em> scientific reason why for every disease there is an anti-disease organism that can destroy it. This sounds far more like yin and yang in Asian philosophy and religion than it does science. Indeed, nemesis theory rather reminds me of homeopathy, which postulates "like cures like" in that there's no scientific reason to believe that this is true. Be that as it may, this idea lead Chachoua to <a href="http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/cancer1/sam.htm" rel="nofollow">develop "induced remission therapy" (IRT)</a>.</p> <p>In the case of HIV, this "theory" led Chachoua to "discover" that a goat virus, Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis Virus (CAEV) is the virus that is the "anti-disease" organism, and that it is this virus that allowed him to make a "vaccine" that eliminates HIV and, as Chachoua puts it, produce an "effective therapy against cancer and other diseases with no side effects." Yes, this is another red flag of quackery, the claim that one's treatment cures many diseases with no side effects, and Chachoua's website has it in spades. In the case of HIV, CAEV is indeed a goat retrovirus, and some researchers have even speculated that it might be used as a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2540113">model for HIV</a> in in animal research. Based on this and little else, <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com" rel="nofollow">Chachoua claims</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>In the greatest experiment done by nature, millions of Mexicans have drunk goat milk infected with CAEV (Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis Virus). I followed people from a small village in Mexico who were infected with CAEV, and thousands more were studied by USC, not one developed AIDS over decades of follow-up.</p> <p>Just like a cold will affect the nose and the flu the lungs, there are infections that will only infect cancer cells or other disease tissue. There are organisms that neutralize each other in nature, such as seen above in CAEV and HIV.</p> <p>Even measles and mumps can interfere with AIDS and leukemia and other types of cancer. These common infections have been reported to give long lasting remissions from these ailments, but there are strains and infection types that are far more efficient than others. I had developed, isolated and enhanced a library of organisms that could be used to create vaccines and therapies to eradicate cancer and AIDS. The therapies achieved phenomenal success and when American celebrities were cured, Cedar Sinai Medical Center and UCLA sought me out to work with them with promises of FDA registration and the healing of mankind.</p></blockquote> <p>Yes, Chachoua's "preliminary evidence" is the claim that people from a small village in Mexico drink milk from arthritic goats (I kid you not) and as a result none of them ever developed AIDS, coupled with the existence of a goat retrovirus that can cause this arthritis.</p> <p>I <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com/the-process/" rel="nofollow">perused the science sections</a> of Chachoua's website, and found them…wanting. OK, it's a lot of horrifying pseudoscience based on a germ of real science. Sadly, that's the case with so many quacks' nostrums. See if you can see the problems in <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com" rel="nofollow">Chachoua's treatment</a>:</p> <blockquote><ol><li>Biological lytic and apoptosis agents are used to destroy disease cells and organisms.</li> <li>Vaccines made from Nemesis Organisms TM are used to optimize the above process and protect cells and tissues that have not been corrupted by disease (this essentially stops metastasis in cancer and prevents HIV from being able to progress). These vaccines also contain DNA correction enzymes that enables [<em>sic</em>] disease removal from our genetic blueprint. This process is both enzymatic and immunologic.</li> <li>In most disease cases the immune system is exhausted and a fresh younger version is supplied from a bank or from children of the ill person. This can be more than just a younger fresher system. For example, if the measles or mumps are used to tag and attack cancer, and blood from children recently vaccinated against measles and mumps is used, then the immune response from the children will directly attack any cancer cells carrying the measles or the mumps virus.</li> </ol><p>This system, described as profound and exciting by Cedar Sinai Medical Center and UCLA, showed that the blood transfusions from children were an effective treatment for cancer and without side effects.</p></blockquote> <p>While Chachoua is correct that cancer is a genetic disease, he seems to vastly underestimate the complexity of the genetic derangements and mutations and how difficult it would be to correct them. As for blood transfusions curing cancer without side effects, first of all it's not at all true that transfusions are without side effects. They carry the risk of hypersensitivity reactions, disease, and the like. Second, using the MMR against cancer is <a href="http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2014/05/16/could-measles-cure-cancer-uh-not-exactly/">highly experimental</a> and uses an experimental genetically-modified MMR vaccine instead of the standard MMR vaccine. Using the blood of one's children recently vaccinated with MMR will not result in the child's white cells attacking the cancer, and certainly Chachoua provides no evidence or publications to indicate otherwise. Indeed, his entire website suffers from what I like to call cite-openia in that he cites no scientific literature directly and just makes a lot of claims that have nothing to back them up.</p> <p>I then perused <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com/case-studies/" rel="nofollow">some of his case studies</a>, particularly the breast cancer case studies. To call them unconvincing is to be flattering. For instance, the first breast cancer case study shows two mammograms, one in which it's claimed that the breast cancer is adherent to the chest wall (it doesn't look like it to me) and then one after treatment in which it is claimed that the film "Clearly shows that the oval Cancer structure has shrunk and receded away from the muscle wall. This mass is now easier to resect and remove. Response was after four weeks of Dr. Chachoua's therapy." To me the cancer looks roughly the same size and any differences in appearance look like differences in mammographic technique.</p> <p>Indeed, if there's one thing that these "case histories" have in common it's that the images of scans are such poor quality that it's hard to say much about them one way or the other. Another thing is that frequently we're not looking at the same thing. For instance, Chachoua shows a "before and after" image of a liver tumor and claims that the "image below it clearly shows the disappearance of one of the metastases (black hole) with shrinkage of the other after four weeks of therapy." No, it doesn't. Bad film quality aside, it looks as though these films were taken at two different levels, and the contrast is so different that it's hard to say much of anything. Ditto the case with lung CTs. Another set of breast cancer "before and after" images shows no clear effect due to differences in technique of the mammograms. "Before and after" films of breast cancer metastases to the liver were taken at different levels.</p> <p>At the bottom of the page, it states, "The slides and exhibit references all refer to evidence presented to the judge during Dr. Chachoua vs. Cedars Sinai. This is why they may seem non sequential." No kidding.</p> <p>Then, in the <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com/patient-testimonials/" rel="nofollow">testimonials section</a>, there are a bunch of testimonials of the type that regular readers have no doubt become familiar with, such as a thyroid tumor disappearing after a biopsy (small ones sometimes do; sometimes the biopsy is enough to remove them); a melanoma not completely excised by shave technique that hasn't come back (this happens sometimes; incomplete excision increases the risk of recurrence greatly but the tumor doesn't always come back); and the like. As is the case with such testimonials, it's difficult or impossible to tell if Chachoua's treatment had any effect.</p> <p>Chachoua has, however, added a section on <a href="http://drsamchachoua.com/charlie-oz/" rel="nofollow">Charlie Sheen to his website</a>. In it, he seems to mistake regular statistical "noise" you'll see in any test of a very low to undetectable viral titer for actual effects, for instance mistaking a decline from 34 to undetectable as significant (anything under 50 is considered undetectable). There are some real howlers in it too:</p> <blockquote><p>It doesn't matter if Cedars played with the numbers or not when they found out what Charlie was going to say on air. And nothing in Charlie's history or life style would have taught him how viruses grow and spread. But if 700 is a true representation of what his counts were like after stopping Dr. Chachoua's treatment for a week, then the virus was still being controlled otherwise, it would have been in the hundreds of thousands or millions. When Charlie stopped conventional therapy for a day, his count went up to 34.</p></blockquote> <p>In other words, if it weren't for my woo, the viral load would have been hundreds of times higher! Of course, there's no way to know that. Also:</p> <blockquote><p>1.) Again, when he stopped Dr. Chachoua's medicines for two or three days, the virus remained non detectable and only went up after he abstained for a week. This makes it better than the conventional therapy.</p></blockquote> <p>Um, no. Just no.</p> <blockquote><p>2.) During the two months or so he was on this treatment, there was no detectable virus even though he was not taking any conventional medicine and was only taking Dr. Chachoua's treatment. The virus was at lower counts i.e. non detectable to the more sensitive tests. He had not been able to achieve this in 5 years of normal treatment. This makes it better than conventional treatment.</p></blockquote> <p>Except that during much of that time period Sheen appears to have been still taking his antiretrovirals, and it's not clear at all that Chachoua's treatment had anything to do with this. Admittedly, it's unclear exactly when Sheen stopped his HIV medications, but it doesn't appear to have been for more than a month or so.</p> <p>To me, the bottom line is that Chachoua is a quack, and Bill Maher sure does love him some quackery, so much so that he irresponsibly promoted Chachoua, lips planted firmly on Chachoua's posterior, on <cite>Real Time With Bill Maher</cite> on Friday.</p> <h2>Bill Maher: Credulously promoting alternative medicine quackery</h2> <p>If there's one person who is living proof that being an atheist has nothing to do with being a skeptic, it's Bill Maher. Touting himself as being supremely rational in comparison to those "God botherers" and Republicans, Maher has himself embraced <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/09/after-five-years-bill-maher-lets-his-antivaccine-freak-flag-fly-again/">antivaccine pseudoscience</a>, other <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/09/21/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant-part-2/">cancer quackery</a>, and general <a href="https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/oh-come-on-superman-part-ii-bill-maher-implodes-over-vaccines-and-western-medicine/">pseudoskepticism</a> about "<a href="https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/oh-come-on-superman-bill-maher-and-western-medicine/">Western medicine</a>." Nor is this the first time he's embraced <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/14/bill-maher-on-christine-maggiores-book/">HIV quackery, either</a>. Indeed, I've been pointing out for <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant_07.html">more than a decade now</a> just how much pseudoscience Maher embraces. Unfortunately, in some circles, that doesn't seem to matter. For example, in 2009 Atheist Alliance International <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/17/the-2009-recipient-of-the-richard-dawkin-1/">awarded Maher the Richard Dawkins Award</a>, which was likened to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/07/23/bill-maher-gets-the-richard-dawkins-awar/">Jenny McCarthy receiving a public health award</a>.</p> <p>So I suppose it's not that surprising that Maher went full quack. I just never expected him to embrace so quacky a quack so credulously. My bad.</p> <p>The first thing that bothered me about the interview was just how unethical it all was. Sure, I was a bit skeeved out by the things Dr. Huizenga revealed, but Sheen was right there and the doctor clearly had Sheen's permission to discuss his case. There was no such deal in the case of Chachoua, who gleefully started disclosing private medical information about Sheen (and did so on his website as well, as discussed above), in clear violation of HIPAA law and medical ethics in general. For instance, he claims that Sheen had severe encephalitis, which, if true, would indicate that he needed to be hospitalized, not treated by a quack. After Chachoua's description of Sheen keeping his house all dark, Maher quipped that that was because of the hookers. (Stay classy. That's all I can say.) Chachoua also claimed that Sheen had liver failure, which is certainly possible given his history of alcohol abuse.</p> <p>Maher, for his part, does inject a little "skepticism" when he asks, in essence, how come nobody else knows about this if it's so great? Interestingly, as is so often the case (I'm talking to you, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/?s=stanislaw+burzynski">Stanislaw Burzynski</a>), Chachoua has a lovely conspiracy theory in which he claims UCLA and Cedar-Sinai Medical Center "came courting" him to test out his work in the mid 1990s, which might actually be true given that the NIH was at the time being politically pressured to examine alternative cancer cures. As is the usual case, this collaboration, if it ever happened, didn't turn out well. If you believe Chachoua, "they published it on their own and buried it." Well, certainly there are no publications by Chachoua about it. Searching PubMed didn't turn up anything. There is another Chachoua who has published about AIDS, but it obviously isn't Samir Chachoua.</p> <p>So what is Chachoua's claim? Maher played an excerpt from this old news clip (the video quality stinks, unfortunately):</p> <iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TFSkJhCcpBY" width="480" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe><p> It's a story about a $10 million judgment against Cedar-Sinai for Samir Chachoua for allegedly taking or losing cultures of many of the microorganisms that Chachoua claimed to be able to use to treat and cure cancer and AIDS. (It was at this point that I asked: What kind of idiot gives anyone all of his cultures and doesn't save aliquots for himself?) It's a very credulous report. Of course, Maher neglects to mention a very important bit of follow-up information about that lawsuit, namely that it was dismissed (more on that in a moment), instead choosing to let Chachoua blather on about how he studied spontaneous remission and that led him to his ideas. Meanwhile, Maher waxes poetic about "groupthink" in Western medicine (irony meter destroyed—again) and how it's usually individuals not working for institutions who discover things (maybe 150 years ago, but not anymore, and of course, many of the examples cited did work for hospitals or universities).</p> <p>He also let Chachoua outright lie. I'm sorry, but it's hard to see how I can characterize what Chachoua said when he claimed that all of Sheen's great tests were during his treatment, not his conventional doctors, any other way. Of course, the plummeting of Sheen's viral load happened in 2011, four years before he ever met Chachoua. Yet Maher never challenged even that blatant of a lie. Instead, he climbed up on his own cross, prefacing his question with an observation about how he would be attacked for featuring Chachoua (consider it done) and Chachoua had been called a quack (which he is). His question was: Does it last? In response, Chachoua claimed that his vaccine had eradicated HIV in a small country (Comoros). It was the sort of obscure claim that most wouldn't be able to check, but <a href="https://twitter.com/derivative_of_f/status/693594273564889088">someone on Twitter did</a>:</p> <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><p dir="ltr" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><a href="https://twitter.com/MarkHoofnagle">@MarkHoofnagle</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/gorskon">@gorskon</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/DrJenGunter">@DrJenGunter</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/billmaher">@billmaher</a> Claims to have eliminated HIV in Comoros. <a href="https://t.co/CrO0nvx6rE">https://t.co/CrO0nvx6rE</a> <a href="https://t.co/2RMw5TUFjR">pic.twitter.com/2RMw5TUFjR</a></p> <p>— tangentgirl (@derivative_of_f) <a href="https://twitter.com/derivative_of_f/status/693594273564889088">January 31, 2016</a></p></blockquote> <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" async="" charset="utf-8"></script><p> What's wrong, Bill? Couldn't your fact checkers have bothered to Google?</p> <p>Finally, what really happened with the Cedar-Sinai lawsuit? The <a href="http://www.buzzfeed.com/virginiahughes/goat-milk-cure">judge tossed it out on appeal</a>, stating that the award was based on speculative testimony. Chachoua only received $11,250. HIV activist <a href="https://www.facebook.com/peterstaley/posts/10208729282328907">Peter Staley points out</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>The $10 million case that "Doctor" Sam Chachoua claims he won from L.A.'s Cedars-Sinai Medical Center was another lie he told to Bill Maher. The court immediately reduced the "breach of contract" damages to $11,250 (in 2001). Cedars then successfully sued for recovery of their own court costs, in excess of that amount, and Chachoua started missing court dates after that. His own lawyer quit the case at that point. Cedars never paid him a dime.</p> <p>I paid small amounts to look at the case reports, which are endless, starting in 1997, and ending in 2004. One of the court's orders called it "the longest case in this court's history." If any of my legal friends want to provide a fuller account of these record [<em>sic</em>], which are accessible with a PACER account, you can find them all here:</p> <p><a href="https://ecf.cacd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/HistDocQry.pl?891618340300786-L_1_0-1">https://ecf.cacd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/HistDocQry.pl?891618340300786-L_1…</a></p></blockquote> <p>The central reason listed for dismissing the case was:</p> <blockquote><p>[Chachoua's] consistent refusal to comply with court orders regarding representation; his pattern of using medical excuses as a device to prolong the action unnecessarily, avoid appearances for deposition or other court proceedings, and obtain continuances at the last minute; and his pattern of substituting counsel in order to secure deadline extensions or continuances of potentially dispositive proceedings.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.joemygod.com/2016/01/31/bill-maher-promotes-aids-cure-quack-video/">Staley and <cite>Gay City News</cite> reporter Duncan Osbourne</a> have also pointed out that Chachoua charges big bucks for his "cures," with one patient paying him <a href="https://www.facebook.com/peterstaley/posts/10208729543055425?pnref=story">$603,000 and then another $21 million over time for treatments that didn't work</a>. Even Stanislaw Burzynski isn't that greedy.</p> <p>In the past, I've said that nothing Maher could say or do would surprise me anymore. I was mistaken. As highly critical as I've been of his promotion of antivaccine pseudoscience and outright quackery, even I never thought he'd fall for such an obvious cancer quack hook, line, and sinker like this or that he'd let this quack repeat such obvious misinformation, all while admiringly lapping it up. I mention destruction of irony meters, but at the end of his show, the rest of which was fairly standard issue Maher-led political commentary and snark, Maher declared that "Lies are the new truth" thanks to the Internet:</p> <div align="center"> <iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/I8bihhjH3nI" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></div> <p>Now there's an irony meter so well and truly fried that it's been vaporized. Bill Maher just doesn't realize it, so far down the rabbit hole of antivaccine pseudoscience and cancer quackery he's fallen.</p> <p>Oddly enough, Charlie Sheen seems less credulous now than Bill Maher. Once burned, he's now <a href="http://www.people.com/article/charlie-sheen-twwts-doctor-samir-chachoua-hiv-mexico">blasting Chachoua on Twitter</a>, calling him, in essence, a liar.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Wed, 02/03/2016 - 00:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine-nonsense" hreflang="en">Antivaccine nonsense</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine" hreflang="en">antivaccine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/bill-maher" hreflang="en">bill maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/charlie-sheen" hreflang="en">Charlie Sheen</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hbo" hreflang="en">HBO</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hivaids" hreflang="en">HIV/AIDS</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/induced-remission-therapy" hreflang="en">induced remission therapy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nemesis-theory" hreflang="en">nemesis theory</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery" hreflang="en">quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/real-time-bill-maher" hreflang="en">Real Time With Bill Maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/richard-dawkins-award" hreflang="en">Richard Dawkins Award</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/samir-chachoua" hreflang="en">Samir Chachoua</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326082" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454480097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Having seen what HIV/AIDS can do first-hand, and having some friends who have had close calls lately through no fault of their own, sometimes I don't sleep so well either.</p> <p>Graham Nash's "Chicago" has been stuck in my head lately.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326082&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cQS5ar7xDp0ZIfTQ6YXG9IqioaooDYTIEZFg31yx5Ds"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326082">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326083" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454480192"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>While I won't retype it here for obvious reasons, I think Opie and Anthony's now (in)famous tirade against Bill Maher because of his views on gun control would be an approriate response here..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326083&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dxSv2OKzl3-nXzrIvZYz75oxMS6fTn7jiqhmdi4W5Qc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Amethyst (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326083">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326084" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454481292"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just like a placebo, it ends in one of two ways, eh? A doubling down of your delusion or a sense of betrayal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326084&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Hw5viWCamSE3GJBW0rXlnTWKkgNB1SzVWtqnO_7Py_I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326084">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326085" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454482371"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I never thought I would say this, but I feel sorry for Sheen. I understand the frustration of having to take medications daily for the rest of your life (and I'm only a severely labile hypertensive, not HIV-positive). I've tried just about every non-medical (but SBM proven) way to get off my BP meds, and nothing works. To be honest, if I had no true science understanding, and someone promised me that their treatment would allow me to quit the meds forever and keep me healthy, I'd probably jump at it too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326085&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="n8bjza6xBo2RWn_WdnKksO6j9WxoZpXDRH8_RkBx490"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MI Dawn (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326085">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326086" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454483012"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#3 - Indeed. Personally I've never cared for him as an actor (he plays the same friggin' character in everything he is in, even using the name Charlie!) but he is the victim here; both of HIV and woomeisters (and their apologists).</p> <p>I'd often arrogantly think of myself as above the "poor saps" who fall for the allure of woo, but then I realize that unless I've actually been in their situation I wouldn't understand...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326086&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a4zgRkMwzmGEKu4hXU2Ndj21HQoiAiUxn9ABLGO3EWo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Amethyst (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326086">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326087" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454486200"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A few hints that this fellow from Oz is a quack:<br /> - he can "fix liver failure" and "clear encephalitis"<br /> - his fabulous cure was taken over by SBM and then hidden<br /> - phrases like "more than 99%"<br /> - he has experienced "attempts on his life"<br /> - braggadocio and confidence<br /> - claims about curing others in remote locales</p> <p>Funny but I've heard similar nonsense from diverse loons. Gary Null has an entire set piece about "curing" Aids and reversing hiv status based upon ozone, mega doses of vitamin C, green juices and vegan diets which was also banned by SBM.</p> <p>And what is it with goats anyway?**<br /> Didn't AJW's accomplice have something with goat cells?</p> <p>I do recall that Ruggiero had a yogurt based GI treatment<br /> ( he's since moved on from hiv woo to autism woo) </p> <p>** don't answer that Narad!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326087&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="trJJ9rAjJ5s_28sRxZJACyFiqwuaXiQy8oN0StaKG0c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326087">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326088" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454486841"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The thing about HIV meds is that you have to keep ahead of the virus, so you're constantly switching meds and eventually taking tons of all kinds of stuff, which becomes almost a life-consuming thing in itself. I can understand the desire to go off of meds, but if one is HIV positive, you just can't. It isn't safe fore anybody. And the denial and fear and shaming makes it so some people don't even want to get tested, which is also a very dangerous situation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326088&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jB7RyKVZ3GJIfd_eolsmQWoXXQ7XK8kCX2GVcnfXYLg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326088">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326089" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454486869"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>why isn't our govenment working</i><br /> Err, possibly your "foudnign [indended] fathers" designed it this way and your idiot politicians capitalise on it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326089&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7czQZeJIDXLcRezFKTSE5WOoXgD_-IYPVNEr3Tx_6so"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jrkrideau (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326089">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326090" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454486885"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>FOR anybody.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326090&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aQeYTtF97Or55mtAHaobOkrjRDdnKGysi-B6s4VQFRI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326090">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326091" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454487278"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Maher talks about lies from the internet but doesn't he himself parrot/ follow quite a few of them ?</p> <p>- arguments for being a vegan<br /> - anti-vax<br /> - being immune to viruses on a plane<br /> - pharma is the devil</p> <p>He didn't pick up these ideas from classes at a university.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326091&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="T2tMYEeWPclbEjaZDs0M13v9mld29qr8RFsNbP2IjOU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326091">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326092" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454491717"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>He didn’t pick up these ideas from classes at a university.</i></p> <p>Depends on the university and on the professor.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326092&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9ZYyS-13VtqxdTj8W8sA6pTobirm8twBuaBkOC2G7wU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326092">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326093" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454493045"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Not a Troll:</p> <p>I know what you mean<br /> but believe it or not, Bill actually attended a reasonably respectable university- Cornell- which is well-known -historically- because of its very early experimental psychology and today for its veterinary medicine school that seems quite SB<br /> HOWEVER I doubt that Bill benefitted from either of these<br /> advancements - I don't know what he studied AND he left rather quickly sans degree 40 years ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326093&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nYCvcYJ3ACKEISK4ISkv9XEa9fSQaqOmg3cr172o1R4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326093">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326094" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454493290"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I stand corrected:<br /> Wikip--- says he graduated with a double major in English and history.<br /> Perhaps his 'drop out' - references were just a comedy routine or meant in the Timothy Leary sense.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326094&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gbvoIYLAw4ugzSf5zhchixDGYu_r8_gnPE_qoeH7DgQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326094">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326095" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454497076"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Gary Null has an entire set piece about “curing” Aids and reversing hiv status based upon ozone, mega doses of vitamin C, green juices and vegan diets which was also banned by SBM."</p> <p>Another supplement hustler, Bill Sardi claims garlic works better than AZT (it is pure coincidence that Sardi sells a garlic supplement). In an echo of the Gary Null debacle (Null poisoned himself with his own vitamin D-containing supplement), Sardi recently wound up with a heart attack secondary to coronary artery disease, after deriding evidence-based cardiovascular preventive care and instead promoting resveratrol (which he also sells, and takes himself).</p> <p><a href="https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/11/bill-sardi/bill-sardis-heart-blockage/">https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/11/bill-sardi/bill-sardis-heart-blocka…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326095&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IB8j4IMNfzgwNdssetq8_-5_n7CmjXSAJ7RRYsj5FeM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326095">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326096" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454499505"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sardi tells that he took vitamin C to counteract the MI.</p> <p>Interestingly, the other idiot has of late been recommending that his older entranced thralls carry around a packet of vitamin C, garlic, CoQ10 and other woo-fraught products so that if they felt a heart attack or stroke coming on, they should immediately ingest the woo - *et voila!*- insty-cure!<br /> And truly, he adds- "aspirin won't work".</p> <p>Not a mention of doctors, hospitals, emergency care or anything reasonable.<br /> This tripe is allowed on public air waves a swell as internet radio.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326096&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CxzIZfqWqdW-Njl6wtBYX9doigao-rWooN82Shi8cOY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326096">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326097" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454499572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>AS WELL</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326097&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3hcOCMEdB-kN-ObNTXQ0Wpc7kw7XI_wZ_GdJzgArOWY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326097">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326098" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454514185"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>NaT@#11: Brian Martin, in the 'Gong with manufactured dissent..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326098&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rEbQcTKsVZMeDN3XZlVCtyDbKcGbzS4M5zA9Tl4_iUE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">rhwombat (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326098">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326099" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454525625"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>One wonders how Sardi feels about CPR.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326099&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gLVAlmfo1_O1Fu2JvifhjLZz2d-UA-kvyTpJvAJGlEw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay simmons (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326099">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326100" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454529155"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MI Dawn, I feel a little sorry for Sheen as well. He's clearly an enormous berk but he's also dealing with some pretty ugly monkeys on his back. In the immortal words of Mr. Osterberg, no fun.</p> <p>Orac, Mr. Delphine and I also do the Friday pizza and couch routine, but we are prevented from true slumber by a black bathmat who snores (Newfoundland) rather loudly and a gormles s blonde (Golden) who is an insatiable attention whore. We'd couch nap in peace if we didn't have dogs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326100&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gyLVRgVJjcM3Xe9AfoDmTiHaj2_azp2kkU4GveYN1t4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Delphine (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326100">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326101" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454529678"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> As for blood transfusions curing cancer without side effects, first of all it’s not at all true that transfusions are without side effects.</p></blockquote> <p>I just gave blood the other day, and as a mother of two, I definitely had to read the materials about TRALI -- Transfusion-Related Acute Lung Injury. It's the leading cause of death due to transfusion in the US. From wikipedia: "The immune mediated form of TRALI occurs approximately once every 5000 transfusions and has a mortality of 6-9%."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326101&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eUF07IIS64AsrsMVJRUplYMuhrZ9s9YfQaRgWkpacYg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Calli Arcale (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326101">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326102" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454534743"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I've wondered why they make us donors read about TRALI - you get it catching, not pitching. If there is anything us donors can do to prevent TRALI, they sure are keeping it a secret.</p> <p>One of the many things I've learned reading this blog is that any medical intervention that has an effect can (and probably does) have a side effect. Anybody claiming otherwise is a crackpot.</p> <p>It's probably true of any activity, medical or otherwise.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326102&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3YSTLe6tMBE_cVnSNhYFf4gY1s1d1aN15AG_Qax8S9U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326102">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326103" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454540588"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>As for blood transfusions curing cancer without side effects, first of all it’s not at all true that transfusions are without side effects.<br /></p><blockquote> And here I thought all the extra precautions around giving blood products were purely theatrical. <p>Also, injecting himself with HIV positive blood? Heck, doing that with any blood to prove a point is the epitomy of irresponsibility. I wonder if it was typed and crossed first.</p> <p>Someone I work with was once accidentally injected with a small amount of blood from an HIV positive patient and that was a Big Deal (as it well should be).</p> <p>I can't decide who I find more despicable, these grifters or their adoring enablers like Maher. Probably the grifters. Screw Chachoua and his $21 million treatments. How is it that the same people who are so quick to jump on Big Phrama think these scammers are purely altruistic?</p></blockquote> </blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326103&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Vmd6rOCD9UsEYsJ2vogjRKMeiPMNc4h_lox_x_9PsKk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326103">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326104" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454540684"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Huh... only the first paragraph should've been in blockquotes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326104&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iTnSShqij9OUvHVd5UxfrqmWghJpmTxYeKXe6jbcMgk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">capnkrunch (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326104">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326105" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454583521"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>...Bill actually attended a reasonably respectable university- Cornell...</i></p> <p>I'm relatively close to Cornell's main campus. Not that I know any individual professors but I've always held them in high regard. Yet I guess when it comes to attention whores (Ann Coulter is also an alumni), odds are that every university will have a few.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326105&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CyMIuDsF3vQ5Dz9uNm590WNPk37F6cC2kSNYBZRrOIM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326105">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326106" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454583582"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>How is it that the same people who are so quick to jump on Big Phrama think these scammers are purely altruistic?</i></p> <p>IDK, it confounds me too. Perhaps it is our love affair with the underdog that keeps them in business.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326106&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mWIWat2HYRumu6ckHq-V5KhCYT0oDnaw_nC5sKtT-QY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Not a Troll (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326106">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326107" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454588865"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's been mentioned before, but I'll mention it again - it's funny (gallows, not haha) to hear Bill rant about how dem stupid right-wingers ignore the scientific consensus around global warming, then turn right around and ignore the scientific consensus around HIV, vaccination, recombinant DNA technology, germ theory...</p> <p>I used to be one of those 'out and proud' atheists, but since atheism in America is turning into a good ol' white-boys club that's less about science and knowledge and more about feeling smugly superior, I've moved in my mind into the 'skeptic' community.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326107&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xHwCDlAQi3Vd_04J_k4iumHJZCOYQa-lVJbv_PO6aSI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Roadstergal (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326107">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326108" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454617762"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I can totally understand how, if one knew nothing about medicine or science, the idea of taking a magic cure instead of a lifetime of pills would appeal. What I can't understand is not researching the "cure" before trying it; I know what all my "chems" do, and know their side-effects, as there have been ones in the past with bad, un-noted (at the time) side-effects (severe depression and the kind of anorexia where food is revolting). It sucks to have to take lots of medications, but it sucks worse to die.</p> <p>Good luck with the grant-writing!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326108&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JoGaJiJ2BGnNrUAyU3EC1XR8GihcGKUBCY8BxdwiwpY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">elsworthy (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326108">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326109" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454620864"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I used to be one of those ‘out and proud’ atheists</i></p> <p>There's a lot to be said for the Apatheist position, i.e. "religion does not interest me and I feel no compulsion to have an opinion on it".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326109&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RXcDMkrPG1tBqH3Y0m9FpGrLPcfiSkE0JS9Dsluw5PY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 04 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326109">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326110" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454684209"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm not a doctor or expert on cancer or AIDS. To me, the question is does the alternative therapy work? </p> <p>I went to Dr. Chachoua's website found no documentation for most of his claims. If goat milk was preventing AIDS and USC was studying it, where is the evidence that USC did anything? Where in Mexico did this happen and why doesn't anybody else know? If he was actually working with Cedars-Sanaii, why did he have to pay them to look at his vaccines? If he was paying them, why did he have to agree to turn over all his vaccines to them? </p> <p>The only thing I could not find were statements from Cedars-Sanaii about the court case. Were documents manufactured to make the hospital look bad? Because the story from Samir is that Cedars would say one thing and his lawyers then produced documents saying the opposite. The jury believed the documents and the witnesses. So from what I've found this seems to be in his favor. But maybe his story of the trial is not true. But why then would he have witnesses testifying for him? </p> <p>And this one is telling. He agreed to treat Charlie Sheen for free in return for spreading the word about the cure. So why is there no documentation of Charlie's visit or treatment? How can you convince people without any video or records of Charlie and no dates when he was getting the treatment and when he left?</p> <p>I found a chart (not from Chachoua) that showed Comoros did have the AIDS rate go to nearly zero. But a lot of nations around there have low AIDS rates. Chachoua claims to have a letter from Comoros thanking him for reradiating AIDS in that country. But no letter to be seen anywhere.</p> <p>I'm not going to dismiss him outright - but until he produces some real evidence he looks pretty shady.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326110&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d4zzfBFKQ8CL3f6PBfXl969pWYqJwgU_nGpVBc6piaQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Cragoe (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326110">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326111" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454686777"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A quick correction from one the posters up thread. HIV+ patients don't have to change their regimens unless they develop viral resistance to one component or an entire class. Viral resistance and mutations can be sexually transmitted, but most often we see it when pts are nonadherent (the "on and off" again being worse than delaying treatment altogether. First line treatment these days (barring medical complications, like renal insufficiency, abacavir hypersensitivity) typically consists of ONE PILL ONCE DAILY. The newest integrase inhibitor, dolutegravir + Truvada (and now Triumeq which is a once daily regimen = dolutegravir + abacavir + lamivudine) is causing very high viral loads (like, acute HIV infection HIGH) to drop like a stone in less than a month. </p> <p>Moral of the story is - HAART is extremely effective today, WAY more tolerated by pts than in the past, and there many HIV+ folks who stay on the same ARV's for YEARS without change.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326111&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fnYR35_I_-N15WPH1NRWrX9N-8vzloWqo7TcgVXsfPg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kelly (not verified)</span> on 05 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326111">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326112" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454758680"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The minute my husband sent me this Bill Maher clip, somewhat credulous of this latest quack's claims, I went to your blog to see if you wrote about it. So glad you did.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326112&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PcRxHHMEuD1PdqNfIzaLCU2_odNHMF7wNCzta0czITw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Zhana (not verified)</span> on 06 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326112">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326113" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454833707"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ladies and Gentleman, winner of the 2009 Richard Dawkins award!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326113&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AG3_FOPg2l_Nh1uYstGIdw3mF5l9tV67F-HpoaIgkDo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Stevebr (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326113">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326114" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454840038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am surprised to see CAEV goats used for anything. Because of the reduced use, most goat owners in the U.S. have great be to great lengths to eliminate it (easiest way is to feed the offspring formula or boil the mother's milk) and then only purchase CAEV-free livestock going forward. When we built our herd CAEV-free was a requirement.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326114&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fnxvj97Fpt72BiynsE91ICdhO2_487bx9_Z9d7vkLmQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mrs Woo (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326114">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326115" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454853573"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mrs. Woo, good to see you! I hope all is reasonably well with you and yours!</p> <p>:)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326115&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oIJsPX732HrInSJ-OAZ8k9M2Fhwnfdip9oo6mribTRI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326115">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326116" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1454855753"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>...but since atheism in America is turning into a good ol’ white-boys club that’s less about science and knowledge and more about feeling smugly superior, I’ve moved in my mind into the ‘skeptic’ community.</p></blockquote> <p>For much the same reason, I prefer to concentrate on promoting humanism rather than atheism <i>qua</i> atheism. Unfortunately, the American Humanist Association doesn't come across as terribly friendly towards non-secular humanists; rightly or wrongly the tagline is "Good without a God" is bound to alienate non-atheist humanists. I'm still debating whether I should join AHA in order to try and change this from the inside, or try finding/creating a humanist organization which is more inclusive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326116&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BVqLSkhPMExNbgwaEWYk4_BmzNgASGbVeKt28gzcxTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 07 Feb 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326116">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1326117" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1456934430"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hey Orac I need that Maher video that got removed. If you or someone here saved a copy please upload it to YouTube. Thanks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1326117&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1vGNkTGuUcfu0MW855fFW1jd5Q-00FLuqEaqe3V2Flc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">titmouse (not verified)</span> on 02 Mar 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1326117">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2016/02/03/same-as-it-ever-was-antivaccine-crank-bill-maher-loves-him-some-hivaids-quackery%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 03 Feb 2016 05:00:45 +0000 oracknows 22232 at https://scienceblogs.com Bill Maher doubles down on his antivaccine misinformation...again https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/16/bill-maher-doubles-down-on-antivaccine-misinformation-again <span>Bill Maher doubles down on his antivaccine misinformation...again</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><div style="width: 570px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/insolence/files/2015/02/ThurstonBledsoeMaher-small.jpg"><img src="/files/insolence/files/2015/02/ThurstonBledsoeMaher-small.jpg" alt="Baratunde Thurston and Zanny Minton Bedoes react to a particularly ignorant bit of antivaccine misinformation by Bill Maher. (February 13, 2015)" width="560" height="282" class="size-full wp-image-9313" /></a> Baratunde Thurston and Zanny Minton Bedoes react to a particularly ignorant bit of antivaccine misinformation by Bill Maher on <em>Real Time With Bill Maher</em>. (February 13, 2015) </div> <p>I really don't want Mondays to be come "let's refute and make fun of the conspiratorial antivaccine nonsense Bill Maher said on his show Friday night." I really don't. However, I figured that I might have to devote Monday to that one more time this week after Maher <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/09/after-five-years-bill-maher-lets-his-antivaccine-freak-flag-fly-again/">really let his antivaccine freak flag fly again</a> for the first time in five years on his <a href="http://youtu.be/B7yvI0tu3Ho">February 6 show</a>. As a result of the criticism, Maher <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/10/the-annals-of-im-not-anti-vaccine-part-13-nobody-wants-to-admit-to-being-antivaccine/">apologists crawled out of the woodwork</a>, trying to argue that, really and truly, Maher is not antivaccine—except that he is and has been for as long as I've been paying attention to these issues. He just hid it for a while after the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/17/bill-maher-flames-out-over-vaccines/">epic slapdowns</a> he received in 2009 over the same sort of nonsense over the H1N1 pandemic and flu vaccine.</p> <p>So, yes, I rather suspected that Maher wasn't done yet, and he wasn't. On Friday's show, he couldn't resist revisiting the issue, even though he really should have resisted.</p> <!--more--><p>I actually didn't watch the show when it aired because, well, I had better things to do at the time, like go out with my wife to see the Oscar-nominated shorts. But the e-mails and comments kept coming in, and then my blog bud Mark did a <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2015/02/14/bill-maher-the-moronic-food-babe-and-the-nyt-discusses-what-to-call-climate-change-denialists/">lovely rant about Maher</a>; so finally I broke down and watched the video. Unfortunately, unlike last week, Maher's crew didn't post just the vaccine segment, but rather other segments of the show, although Maher did post a relatively low resolution version of the whole show on <a href="https://plus.google.com/110269503217534813562/posts/iyQ2XJAE465?pid=6115583113442832370&amp;oid=110269503217534813562">his Google+ feed</a>. So I'll just tell you the relevant time marks as I go through this, and you can go look at the <a href="https://plus.google.com/110269503217534813562/posts/iyQ2XJAE465?pid=6115583113442832370&amp;oid=110269503217534813562">video</a> if you wish.</p> <p>The first thing I noticed was that Maher started out with an interview with <a href="http://robertkennerfilms.com">Robert Kenner</a>, who produced and directed the 2008 documentary <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food,_Inc.">Food, Inc.</a>, which examined the industrialization of the food system and how the food industry promotes unhealthy food consumption habits. Apparently he has a ne film coming out, <a href="http://www.merchantsofdoubt.com">Merchants of Doubt</a>, inspired by the <a href="http://www.merchantsofdoubt.org">book of the same title</a> by historians Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway. The book famously discussed how industry and free market politicians twist science to sow "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" about established science, starting with the evidence that smoking causes cancer and moving on to acid rain, the effects of ozone on the atmosphere, and, of course, anthropogenic global warming/climate change (AGW).</p> <p>It's a fairly straightforward interview about how industry and free market fundamentalist politicians collude to cast doubt on inconvenient (to them) science about, for instance, food, pharmaceuticals, and AGW. In the context of what happens later, it's hard not to see this as setting up the vaccine segment later in the show, given how during the previous week Maher used his anti-pharmaceutical views as part of his basis for casting his own fear, uncertainty, and doubt about vaccines. Later on in the show, beginning at the 17:30 mark, the panel discusses Scott Walker, who apparently denied belief in evolution. He didn't actually do that, but rather said he was going to "punt" on the question because it's a question a politician "shouldn't be involved in." Of course, this does give Maher an opportunity to do one of his anti-religion bits that he does so well, proclaiming that science and faith are not compatible and declaring that "stupidity is not another form of knowledge."</p> <p>Clearly the irony of that last statement was lost on Maher. However, in the context of the show, one can't help but wonder if this interview was intentionally set up to cast the light Maher wanted on his discussion of vaccines later in the show.</p> <p>That vaccine discussion begins during Maher's interview with David Duchovny, who was on the show to promote his new book. As a sidebar, Maher mentions that he's a "big animal rights guy." Of course, the animal rights group he's chosen to associate himself with is PETA, and he's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher">been on its board since 1997</a>. Not surprisingly, a <a href="http://newsbusters.org/blogs/randy-hall/2014/06/18/bill-maher-praises-peta-slams-liam-neeson-over-treatment-horses">vocal supporter of the group</a>. It's a group that, as I've discussed on many occasions, takes <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/24/animal-rights-activists-impossible-to-pa/">pseudoscientific positions</a> that are <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/30/peta-even-more-impossible-to-parody-than/">sometimes impossible to parody</a>.</p> <p>At about the 35:00 mark, the discussion between Duchovny and Maher works its way to factory farming and the amount of antibiotics given to the animals. This is, of course, a real problem that's contributed to widespread antibiotic resistance in a number of organisms. By the 36:00 mark, Maher has led the discussion to "the herd," flowing from his discussion with Duchovny of factory farming and antibiotics. This is reminiscent of Maher's "JAQing" off about whether, like overuse of antibiotics, we can ever overuse vaccines. So right off the bat I knew this was going to go south, as in antivaccine talking points south, in a hurry. And it did.</p> <p>Digging himself in deeper, Maher begins by defending parents who argue that the measles is "not a big deal," parroting the common antivaccine talking point that, oh, you know, if the disease were really bad, <em>of course</em> he'd recommend vaccinating against it. But this is just the measles, and that's not very severe. He then equates the measles vaccine with the flu vaccine in terms of herd immunity:</p> <blockquote><p> <strong>MAHER:</strong> ...we didn't get to the part about the herd, and I'm very sympathetic to parents who say I don't want my kid to get the measles even though I also understand why parents have a right to say certain diseases you'd be remiss not to protect your kids from, but that one doesn't seem that dangerous to me. But, if we're going to say that the herd must be protected, everybody has to get the shot. What if we said flu shot? That kills people. What if everybody now has to get a flu shot? Is this the slippery slope?</p> <p><strong>DUCHOVNY:</strong> I think that with the flu shot it's not A to B, like with measles you're targeting measles. I think with the flu they're guessing which flu is coming, so they're not...</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> That's why I don't get it.</p> <p><strong>DUCHOVNY:</strong> ...well, well, I think that you may be smart on that. In order to join in society with millions of people on this planet you have to make sacrifices you don't want to make. So to join the herd, to get the benefits of being in the herd, you may have to do some things you may not like.</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> So if the herd is saying that if you don't get a flu shot or a measles shot, then you're selfish, I'd also like to say to the herd: "If you have six kids, you're selfish." That is also a scientific fact.</p> <p><strong>DUCHOVNY:</strong> There are officials in China who would agree with you. </p></blockquote> <p>Nice burn.</p> <p>Of course, both Maher and Duchovny denigrate the flu vaccine because it's such a difficult vaccine. While I'm happy that Maher has finally admitted that influenza can kill people, I don't think he quite gets it yet. Both he and Duchovny make it sound as though scientists just take wild guesses about which antigens to include in the flu vaccine every year, as if they throw three or four darts at a board with the various strains written on it and pick the ones closest to where the darts hit. As I've <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/05/no-the-cdc-did-not-just-apologize-and-admit-that-this-years-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work/">described before in more detail</a>, there is a long process by which the flu vaccine strains are chosen every year, and they have to be chosen by around now (February) in order to have adequate stocks of vaccine ready for fall. Scientists at the WHO basically look at the circulating strains at the time and use what they know to make the best predictions they can as to which strains will be predominating in the fall and winter. Sometimes they predict well. Sometimes, as is the case this year, they don't, thanks to antigenic drift in which a flu strain not expected to predominate came to predominate. By the time scientists realized this it was too late to reformulate this year's vaccine, and this year's vaccine is <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/16/cdc-did-not-admit-flu-vacine-does-not-work/">not that effective in comparison to years past</a>.</p> <p>Maher also includes a variant of the antivaccine trope that I like to call "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/24/dr-jay-and-argumentum-ad-populum/">argumentum ad Brady Bunch</a>," based on a 1969 episode of The Brady Bunch in which the whole family caught the measles and it was played for laughs. It's the claim, echoed by antivaccine pediatricians <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/21/quoth-dr-bob-sears-poor-poor-pitiful-me-you-stupid-people/">Dr. Bob Sears</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/29/false-balance-about-vaccines/">Dr. Jay Gordon</a> that the measles just isn't that bad. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/22/the-past-and-present-rebuke-antivaccinationists-who-claim-measles-is-benign/">Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong</a>.</p> <p>Then notice how Maher is clearly stung by accusations of "selfishness," adding a dig against religion by deriding how God said "Be fruitful and multiply." Witness how he conflates the selfishness of parents who don't vaccinate and ride on the herd to the "selfishness" of parents who have six children because population growth in unsustainable. It's a breathtakingly inane argument even by Bill Maher standards, particularly given that the <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/31/how-the-worlds-populations-are-changing-in-one-map/">rate of population growth</a> in Europe is virtually nonexistent (actually, many European countries are seeing declines in population) and in the US is very low, with even that growth rate being due mostly to immigration.</p> <p>He's also conflating different purposes of vaccination. Measles is one of the most highly contagious diseases there is, but the vaccine for it is very effective, which makes herd immunity even more important. It also demands a very high rate of vaccination to achieve herd immunity because the disease is so infectious, which is why 90-95% is the threshold typically quoted. Influenza, as infectious as it is, is still much less infectious than measles. Herd immunity can be achieved at <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22414740">lower rates of immunization</a>. Here's the other difference. In general, with the flu vaccine, we're talking about adults, and there is no mechanism to compel vaccination. With children and measles, it makes a lot of sense to mandate measles vaccination as a condition of entering into a crowded place where lots of kids can pass various diseases around, particularly given how easily one child could infect many with the measles.</p> <p>Never one to stop a good rant, Maher continued:</p> <blockquote><p> <strong>MAHER:</strong> What about when the herd eats sugar and corn syrup all day and their immune systems are down and they get the flu more? I don't get the flu.</p> <p><strong>DUCHOVNY:</strong> The herd is not going to listen to any of that shit. [Laughter.] The herd by definition does not listen.</p> <p>[More laughter.]</p> <p><strong>DUCHOVNY:</strong> But the herd also tells their doctors to give them antibiotics. for everything, and...that..I'm more scared of bugs that are antibiotic-resistant than I am of the measles. What about the herd there, herd? </p></blockquote> <p>Unlike last week, though, this time there was some pushback, first from <a href="http://baratunde.com">Baratunde Thurston</a>, comedian and author of <a href="http://howtobeblack.me">How To Be Black</a>:</p> <blockquote><p> <strong>THURSTON:</strong> I think you're mixing up a lot of science.</p> <p>MAHER [interrupting]: No, I'm not.</p> <p><strong>THURSTON</strong> [continuing]: I do. I do. Really. [Thurston trying to continue with Maher and Duchovny interrupting.] I think antibiotic resistance—I'll talk to both of you [gesturing to Maher and Duchovny]. Antibiotic resistance is not the same as your skepticism about vaccines. It's just not. We've saved so many lives from sanitation, clean water, and vaccines.</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> This is the straw man I'm always fighting. I am not skeptical that vaccines "work" [air quotes]. I get it that they work. Lots of things work. Antibiotics work—at a cost. Chemotherapy works. It might get rid of my tumor...</p> <p><strong>THURSTON:</strong> But what is this cost you're talking about for vaccines?</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> OK. I said this last week. This is a scientific fact. There have been no long-term studies done on vaccinated versus unvaccinated, long term health outcomes. If you never give your immune system a chance to fight a disease...</p> <p><strong>THURSTON:</strong> That's not a cost, that's a question.</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> That is a question that science has not answered.</p> <p><strong>THURSTON:</strong> But the studies that have come in so far have not proven any distinct issues.</p> <p><strong>ZANNY MINTON BEDOES</strong> [Editor-in-Chief of <a href="http://www.economist.com/mediadirectory/zanny-minton-beddoes">The Economist</a>]: What we do know is that vaccines have prevented an enormous number of diseases.</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> No one is saying that's not true.</p> <p><strong>THURSTON:</strong> Here's where I come in, and I don't think—I did watch your show last week—I don't think that it's wrong to ask questions. I agree with you very much that vaccines can be better. There are better technologies than a 160 year old needle to deliver this. </p></blockquote> <p>At this point, I suspect that Maher knew he was losing; so he tried to bring it back to the question of whether it's "selfish" to have six children. Thurston would have none of it:</p> <blockquote><p> <strong>THURSTON:</strong> If you're knowingly increasing the exposure of a deadly disease within the population, that's a very different thing than having another child.</p> <p><strong>MAHER:</strong> Measles is not really that deadly a disease. </p></blockquote> <p>Once again, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/22/the-past-and-present-rebuke-antivaccinationists-who-claim-measles-is-benign/">nonsense</a>.</p> <p>Surprisingly (because Maher's guests are usually fairly clueless about these sorts of things), Bedoes notes that she thinks the US has a good policy in not having mandatory vaccines, but rather vaccine requirements that children must meet if they go to public schools. She notes also that we have religious and philosophical exemptions, echoing my sentiment that, if we have such exemptions, they should be much harder to get, although my view has changed more over the years to the contention that we should not allow non-medical exemptions any more.</p> <p>Bill Maher and his apologists frequently gasp in indignation whenever someone like myself or other skeptics call him antivaccine. Unfortunately, as I showed last week, antivaccine tropes fly fast and furious out of his mouth. His misleading claim about the lack of vaccinated/unvaccinated studies is not <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/24/its-so-cute-when-anti-vaxers-try-to/">only misleading</a>, but <a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/01/22/a-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-study-and-guess-what-vaccinated-kids-do-better-on-tests/">objectively not not true</a>. It <a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2012/04/24/the-combined-measles-mumps-and-rubella-vaccines-and-the-total-number-of-vaccines-are-not-associated-with-development-of-autism-spectrum-disorder-the-first-case-control-study-in-asia/">simply isn't</a>. Also, whenever antivaccine organizations try to do such studies themselves, inevitably they're <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/31/an-anti-vaccine-administered-survey-back/">utterly worthless</a> and/or <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/27/fun-with-phone-surveys/">actually show the exact opposite</a> of what antivaccinationists had hoped. When vaccinated/unvaccinated studies are planned, they are <a href="http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2014/07/10/a-study-comparing-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-kids-is-coming-and-safeminds-is-concerned/">actually attacked</a> by antivaccine groups because these groups know that the studies won't show what they hope they'll show.</p> <p>Yes, the claim that there's never been a "vaccinated/unvaccinated" study is an antivaccine trope, tried and true. What Maher said about it would have been perfectly at home on the websites of antivaccine groups, such as Age of Autism, SafeMinds, VaxTruth, and the National Vaccine Information Center. Ditto his analogies about the immune system "needing a workout" by combatting "real disease," an analogy so breathtakingly ignorant of actual immunology and infectious disease that Maher should really just hang his head in shame.</p> <p>In fact, I mentioned irony above. It's ironic that Maher had Kenner on his show promoting his movie about how industry and free market conservatives promote doubt about settled science through misinformation and cherry-picked science because, when it comes to vaccines, Maher does exactly the same thing using the same sort of dubious arguments about how "the science isn't settled" and "what's the price of vaccines?" Maher will never see that, of course.</p> <p>After the last two weeks of incredibly embarrassing anti-science rants by Bill Maher, my retort to his wounded indignant cry that he's "not antivaccine," is simply to say: If you're not antivaccine, then stop repeating long discredited antivaccine talking points as though they were scientifically valid. That's what antivaccinationists do, and if you continue to do such things, then you shouldn't be surprised when people conclude that you are antivaccine. It's a reasonable conclusion based on <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant_07.html">your own words</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/17/bill-maher-flames-out-over-vaccines/">failure to be educated</a> over the <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/12/bill-maher-anti-vax-wingnut.html">course of many years</a>.</p> <p>Finally, I really hope that I don't have to do this again next Monday.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Sun, 02/15/2015 - 19:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine-nonsense" hreflang="en">Antivaccine nonsense</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/humor" hreflang="en">humor</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/animal-rights-0" hreflang="en">Animal Rights</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine" hreflang="en">antivaccine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/baratunde-thurston" hreflang="en">Baratunde Thurston</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/bill-maher" hreflang="en">bill maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/bob-sears" hreflang="en">Bob Sears</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/brady-bunch" hreflang="en">Brady Bunch</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/david-duchovny" hreflang="en">David Duchovny</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hbo" hreflang="en">HBO</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/herd-immunity" hreflang="en">Herd Immunity</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/holy-cow" hreflang="en">Holy Cow</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/influenza" hreflang="en">influenza</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/jay-gordon" hreflang="en">Jay Gordon</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/measles" hreflang="en">measles</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/people-ethical-treatment-animals" hreflang="en">people for the ethical treatment of animals</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/peta" hreflang="en">PETA</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience-0" hreflang="en">pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/real-time-bill-maher" hreflang="en">Real Time With Bill Maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/zanny-minton-bedoes" hreflang="en">Zanny Minton Bedoes</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/humor" hreflang="en">humor</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424052347"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, it's a dirty job when you have to teach a TV personality some basic facts about vaccines, but who better than Orac, is up to the job?</p> <p>You don't have to search too far (vaccinate-vs-unvaccinated studies, interfering with the body's natural immune system and eating "healthy" in lieu of vaccines), to find that Bill Maher gets his science from anti-vaccine groups...or Dr. Jay Gordon.</p> <p>That crack about six children and deciding to vaccinate your children is a new low, even for Maher. Sure that's the ticket Bill. Who cares if one of your children is maimed or dies from a vaccine-preventable-disease, as long as you've already birthed a replacement.</p> <p>Maher is really stupid...after dropping his anti-vaccine turds last week, he wades back into his bullsh!t one week later.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ru1kzkDmRVAug97IPAKudHXvEtKW_89NAlE0LSNc3TI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 15 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424068339"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>CDC Scientist Still Maintains Agency Forced Researchers To Lie About Safety Of Mercury Based Vaccines</p> <p><a href="http://www.ringoffireradio.com/2015/02/cdc-scientist-still-maintains-agency-forced-researchers-lie-safety-mercury-based-vaccines/">http://www.ringoffireradio.com/2015/02/cdc-scientist-still-maintains-ag…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vYWQWb-72yoA0LkdtLNQ2uc5497sOWF4ByPGYHVhWn8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">GnkoBiloba (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424069564"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Like I'm going to trust a source named "Ring of Fire Radio".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="01Rk3ZF4N0PSLWt6boqoxyM7gkNf3f9o7_VBL1Ti0KE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424070658"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Julian, Me neither. But even without watching, I can be quite sure its bull. Thimerosal was removed from vaccines years ago. The only vaccine in the US that still has it is the flu shot and that can be got without. As for the 'forcing' thing, well maybe to a devout antivaxxer, showing evidence is just like forcing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I_Urqt3iTX7dyWy_8yue_-iSAsbFUIxD4gDHiAUOvVQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeMa (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424071307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Slightly tangential, but is it possible that the Brady Bunch episode involved German measles (rubella)? I haven't seen the episode in years, but, being a 1969 sitcom, rigor in medical terminology left much to be desired. Rubella is a much less serious disease than rubeola.</p> <p>Back in the day, I remember that "measles" was usually prefaced with "red" or "German". The simple term "measles" could refer to either. My hypothesis is that this confusion still exists in our collective subconscious despite the seeming demise of the term "German measles", hence the "measles isn't serious" belief. Possible?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f1xJR-fZyyHwMbI7UcZU_KPyZ9JZOnW5LM-_VCiA2B8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Harold Gaines (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285679" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424072866"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't remember. A link to the complete episode on YouTube can be found here:</p> <p><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/appeal-to-brady-bunch-vaccine-fallacy/">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/appeal-to-brady-bunch-vaccine-falla…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285679&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_QDoBl8jrCyF_F7U1wQtbrsEtzmY9TNW5p907V-AD7M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285679">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285680" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424073144"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Somehow, in the great pantheon of 1960s - 1970s television, I doubt that we would have seen an episode of a comedic show about disease that resulted in one of the characters dying or suffering some debilitating side-effect (like Marsha going blind).</p> <p>Now, if it had been an episode of Quincy? Well, that might have happened.</p> <p>Anti-vaxxers are just stupid.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285680&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kXtTsQkV-6QjEcNNXLpNZwnALSuPWhUHdq1ZPTz74MA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285680">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285681" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424073431"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The article on the Ring of Fire Radio website abut the "CDC scientist" is by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and starts out " I am, now and have always been fiercely pro vaccine."</p> <p>For some reason I couldn't bring myself to read the rest of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285681&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UNC6eSYa1Z7Bj3GwLiEwjEIVrm-1_kBFTZrmMUljSOE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285681">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285682" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424073518"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>On the one hand, I care about Maher saying these idiotic things because he has a big audience, and some believe him to be an authority on skepticism because of his anti-religious views. (Emphasis on "some". It may even be "few".)</p> <p>On the other hand, I'm more worried about physicians, with actual medical degrees conferred by institutions of higher learning, who should know better about immunizations. The one example that we are always going to is Dr. Jay Gordon. Yesterday, he was taken to task on twitter by several of his colleagues -- and myself -- for posting on his blog the package insert for the MMR vaccine without any sort of context. It's the same BS that antivaxxers use, so he should know better. He then says that he's come to terms with the California bill requiring parents who choose not to vaccinate to go see a physician before they can claim an exemption. When that bill was up for a vote, he was all against it, calling it bad policy. Now, he's calling a bill to do away with exemptions bad policy. The man is all over the place, in my opinion. All the while, he should know better. If he does, he doesn't show it.</p> <p>He also said this measles outbreak would be over soon. I'd like him to be right, for once.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285682&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N9TWC7W1BVTmnbb1SYS8DitejY91uJDeg0T73CYnNmg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ren (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285682">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285683" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424074581"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" He (Bill) just hit it for a while after the epic slapdowns he received in 2009 over the same sort of nonsense over the H1N1 pandemic and flu vaccine." Orac</p> <p>FFS, how can anyone who is sane and claims any kind of scientific education support the H1N1 scam. It was total bollocks and just generated a lot of money at public expense for pharma shills. There is nothing insane about pointing this out, the looks on those goons reflects the same kind of Narad deportment that comes with blind vaccine support when someone pops your balloon. Grow up and start getting with the program. Dork</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285683&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="p3Wre-t3aWHf79d5Ef5eC8ej1H33tJ5H6491u6GD0ek"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285683">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285684" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424074753"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bill Nye is next week's guest. I hope he tries to set Maher straight.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285684&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JBbhzJCTgUjLEW7nm7JXS0VkyT6C-Lr09Wor-4xKKOY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brent (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285684">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285685" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424075042"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>” He (Bill) just hit it for a while after the epic slapdowns he received in 2009 over the same sort of nonsense over the H1N1 pandemic and flu vaccine.” Orac</p> <p>FFS, how can anyone who is sane and claims any kind of scientific education support the H1N1 scam. It was total bollocks and just generated a lot of money at public expense for pharma shills. There is nothing insane about pointing this out, the looks on those goons reflects the same kind of Narad deportment that comes with blind vaccine support when someone pops your balloon. Grow up and start getting with the program. Dork</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285685&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qWgWwLXNYxADuz2X0v85j8LdRzNrESeHyzTyz9z6Wug"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285685">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285686" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424076708"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Alright. Knock it off. You keep changing your e-mail address and that knocks you into moderation because WordPress sees you as a "new" commenter. I've been nice about it for a while and approved your comments. No more. Pick an e-mail address and stick with it for good. I will not approve any of your comments that get kicked to moderation any more because the reason they're getting kicked into moderation is because you keep changing your e-mail address. Such posts will go into the trash, never to be seen again. Again, pick one e-mail to post under and stick with it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285686&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L-Ym7hQJKVhioGr3oZv4E9gKGP7Un2mNXnUDPp9Vo8U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285686">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1285685#comment-1285685" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285687" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424077017"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Bill Nye is next week’s guest. I hope he tries to set Maher straight.</p></blockquote> <p>My guess is no, because Maher almost certainly won't bring up vaccines when someone like Bill Nye is a guest on his show. He generally only brings vaccines up when, like on February 6, the guests are sympathetic to his view, or when, like Friday, he has one sympathetic guest (David Duchovny, who also seems to share Maher's proclivity of animal rights activism) and the rest that he probably perceives as unlikely to take him too strongly to task.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285687&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AUoo22YmEixG7V6bVOZfHHJAEqmyv_FSyyCJpvW2Pmg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285687">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285688" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424077473"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Maher is really stupid</i></p> <p>I disagree. Maher knows what he's doing: he's attempting to link the pro-vaccine position to obvious lunatic fringe positions like anti-AGW. He may be letting his Dunning-Krueger flag fly with his arguments, but he is advancing those arguments in a way that is rationally calculated to support his irrational position (his mind is made up on the subject; don't confuse him with the facts).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285688&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bdqHDtlohDBmFdD2DtBAOQYvq7hQ8R16_HySjKVaTRc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285688">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285689" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424080379"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>For some reason I couldn’t bring myself to read the rest of it.</p></blockquote> <p>It doesn't even make sense; there's nothing new from Thompson, so the "still" would more accurately be "does too." It seems to roll from the tired "has invoked the protection of the Federal Whistleblower Statute [<i>sic</i>]" mantra, which doesn't mean anything unless the CDC has already engaged in a retaliatory personnel move, which seems quite unlikely.</p> <p>One might speculate that he's trying to salvage Marcella Piper-Terry's brain-in-a-blender "<a href="http://vaxtruth.org/2015/02/dr-william-thompson-granted-official-whistleblower-status-and-immunity-cdcwhistleblower/">sources have confirmed</a>" comment from a couple of weeks ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285689&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5CpiEoBvJkQVkLoUz0MGVXg-jLdo_IXjdYG0uKWFKFo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285689">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285690" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424080665"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>the looks on those goons reflects the same kind of Narad deportment</p></blockquote> <p>Pretty good, coming from a compulsively repetitive, congenital sockpuppeter.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285690&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="R-8QtB9bBDlF7jDq2bRn_lN75RQ_p84lQb6zdZJ1DFk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285690">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424080714"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Fuck it. Let's go full on nostalgia fetish.</p> <p>We can bring back the days when we all get to "fight real disease for true strength". That's a start, but we shouldn't stop there. There's another thing most of us have been missing out on — fighting a real war. Surely this is the only true way to build true strength of mind and body. This business of going to the gym and "working out" is some weak-ass bullshit and no substitution for the real deal. We need a real war, here in America so everybody has an equal chance to get true strength. </p> <p>Whaddya say, Orac? You can be Charles Hamilton and I can be Ms Scarlett. Sure, you'd be dead, but I get to wear a fabulous dress.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rTp6gW4snoHsLX5bB0cftlnleROpeiJXHEcIAtTC0AI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">I am not a doctor (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424080732"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This story in Forbes by a sort of image manager makes the valid point that nonsense like Maher's needs to be countered by anecdotes and specific personal stories of how children have been profoundly harmed by measles. The medical authorities quoted here reiterate that guidelines, statistics, and factual information are largely ineffective in changing public behavior. What may work better is ad hominem, anecdotal evidence from those who have experienced this supposedly "harmless" disease. Stories trump facts in making a persuasive case to the public, unfortunately. I'd like to hear Maher try to refute a parent's detailed of serious complications from childhood.measles.</p> <p>In case the link doesn't display, it's the recent measles story by Carmine Gallo.</p> <p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/carminegallo/2015/02/03/stories-triggered-the-measles-outbreak-and-storytelling-can-stop-it/">http://www.forbes.com/sites/carminegallo/2015/02/03/stories-triggered-t…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xhrQRckD2fdeZ1JxGWpujToL2OZs7CM4EEeTPQZsMwg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sara (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424080840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I disagree. Maher knows what he’s doing: he’s attempting to link the pro-vaccine position to obvious lunatic fringe positions like anti-AGW.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, he definitely did that last week in response to John McCormack's invocation of AGW "skeptics" as being legitimate skeptics as opposed to vaccine "skeptics." His having Robert Kenner on the show this week strikes me as an explicit attempt to link the "merchants of doubt" in the tobacco industry, among AGW denialists, and the food and pharmaceutical industries in order to tar pro-vaccine advocates with the "merchants of doubt" label. True, Maher didn't mention Kenner in the latter segment where he let his antivaccine freak flag fly again, but there's little doubt that having such a guest on plants the idea of industry shills promoting fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the minds of the audience, thus preparing them for the criticism of vaccination programs later in the show, because, you know, vaccines are made by pharmaceutical companies.</p> <p>Over the decade I've been following Maher's antivaccine wingnuttery, time and time again he's explicitly linked anti-pharma views to his "skepticism" of vaccines. It's very obviously intentional.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4RuL5VzNxvjrLnUWwtTvBK7BDL6Ve6gWdPRXe07i4MA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424081385"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>CDC Scientist Still Maintains Agency Forced Researchers To Lie About Safety Of Mercury Based Vaccines</p></blockquote> <p>If this is about Thompson again, wasn't his study about the MMR vaccine?<br /> A vaccine which never contained mercury, thimerosal or unicorn bits.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UasJsMQSyMFKP1_KOSbm6IReSs41UVOjQ8D2UPE6D3s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424082527"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No pun intended, but I watch Maher’s show religiously. As a liberal atheist, I agree with almost everything that Bill said. However, as a biochemist, I would have to take off my supportive hat for my friend Bill, and tip it to Baratunde Thurston, who came off as cool, calm and collected. I love Baratunde’s intelligent, informed rebuttal to Bill Maher’s rant on vaccinations, antibiotics, and human reproduction. He smiled, and referred to Bill as “son” in a loving, affable fashion, much like my students.<br /> For entertainment reasons, I hope that Baratunde is on the show more often. It is not often – actually, this is the first time - which I am wanting a guess to return, because of his opposing views to Bill.</p> <p><a href="http://www.MichaelVanAllen.com">www.MichaelVanAllen.com</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7SDAgx6PwHqixX2FXEJK2MrZOsZs6OXv_4I_AVJbKIo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michael A Van Allen (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424091445"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@lilady #1:</p> <blockquote><p>Maher is really stupid…after dropping his anti-vaccine turds last week, he wades back into his bullsh!t one week later.</p></blockquote> <p>At least this time one of his waders was taken off him.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285696&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UFw0JbbkJnJjq0PZ-iZtKGVGHfWxmziZp9ThctynxaQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285696">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285697" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424092936"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Again, pick one e-mail to post under and stick with it.</i></p> <p>You would think that a single false e-mail address would be enough. How are <i>multiple</i> made-up addresses supposed to provide greater anonymity?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285697&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RhMAKUpgNTmSaBhnCyt2VbzdmKdng9nsXSu3FAdy7Fs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285697">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285698" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424093691"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't know. He just keeps using different e-mail addresses with nonsense strings of letters before the "@." I don't know why I put up with it for so long. Basically, unless he can remember a string he's used before, he's not getting through again. Of course, if he does remember a string he's used before (and that I've approved before) his comments won't go into automatic moderation and will publish automatically.</p> <p>If he asks me nicely, I might tell him a string he's used. Otherwise, I hope his memory's good.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285698&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WpzV5H2XiDFFahfeaB2qoevF_6Ocu6oENFQkE3fj1mc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285698">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285699" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424093886"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So much for the "advocates increased scientific knowledge" criteria of that ill-given Dawkin's award from 2009. </p> <p>Be entertaining if Bill Nye got into a discussion with Maher about evolution, climate change (with Maher agreeing, of course), and then Nye turning it all around and pointing out the similarities between Maher's anti-vaccination/anti-science stance and the anti-evolution/anti-AGW/anti-science stance of those he (Maher) pokes fun at on a regular basis. </p> <p>Let Maher know that he looks just as ridiculous as they do when they parrot long refuted creationist and AGW-denial talking points based on cherry-picked data, misunderstanding of the basics, misunderstanding how science works, quote-mining, rejection of a consensus (or "it's all falling apart as scientists flee their theory"), getting the conclusions of papers completely wrong, etc etc etc. </p> <p>Be even funnier if every scientist or science-educator who was a guest on his show did the same thing. Maher would probably switch his lineup to people he could more easily steamroll.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285699&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CFhrL5nYYLwq8ZlOToKYQkv6PPCZQ7VJORHnWh5S5q4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dan Andrews (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285699">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285700" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424094188"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There is a peril in this approach. If you're going to do that as a guest, you absolutely must know the origins of the antivaccine claims Maher regularly makes cold. You also have to know the refutations of Maher's antivaccine BS cold. Most scientists don't. Given his performance in his debate, I now think Nye could do it, but he'd have to prepare ahead of time. I don't know if the rest of the famous scientists and science advocates who show up fairly regularly on Maher's show would take the time to be able to handle him.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285700&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SSv4gXG6v3flUTdM3L1ZB7zUP5RElHN1GTonzaKVKAg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285700">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285701" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424094622"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Rich Woods: I posted that comment just for you. :-)</p> <p>I love being your straight (wo)man.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285701&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_6YLdaTs0i3rlsdQgf6_MZyr9vjCXulKmy6UEK2Hlxg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lilady (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285701">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285702" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424104515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t know if the rest of the famous scientists and science advocates who show up fairly regularly on Maher’s show would take the time to be able to handle him.</p></blockquote> <p>I don't know either, but I'm grateful that Anderson Cooper took the time to do enough research to hand Dan Burton his ass several times over on ac360 a few weeks ago. It's 11 minutes long, but it's a relentless thing of beauty:<br /><a href="http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-ex-gop-rep-throw-down-over-vaccine-autism-link/">http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-ex-gop-rep-throw-down-over-v…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285702&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xZnRwZpBl3CvSVf69nvvY2GKZ80YP9feAyZ23FI5clU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285702">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285703" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424104519"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What about the issue of "regulatory capture" of the FDA by pharmaceutical companies (as described here: <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/02/fda_inspections_fraud_fabrication_and_scientific_misconduct_are_hidden_from.html">http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/02/fda_in…</a>)? I would love to see a post here how much of the vaccine-related research is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies, and how much we should worry about scientific fraud.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285703&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SczsBAuKuEXr6qiSNxB2-O8R6E62S5W73MGa1wfeYnE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Skeptical Skeptic2015">Skeptical Skep… (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285703">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285704" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424105458"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What about the issue of “regulatory capture” of the FDA by pharmaceutical companies</p></blockquote> <p>Twice <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/09/after-five-years-bill-maher-lets-his-antivaccine-freak-flag-fly-again/#comment-385130">in a single month</a> must be some sort of record.</p> <blockquote><p>I would love to see a post here how much of the vaccine-related research is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies, and how much we should worry about scientific fraud <b>have my "point" made for me</b>.</p></blockquote> <p>FTFY.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285704&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UWdKJe0Dd7iw__DGjGQ9Wurzh2RStTEOL_1o-n-HuHk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285704">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285705" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424106863"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Otherwise, I hope his memory’s good.</p></blockquote> <p>Perhaps <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/29/false-balance-about-vaccines/#comment-384215">state-dependent learning</a> will help out Phildo.</p> <p>Then again, given that he's used at least five (I'm thinking six) pseudonyms already this time around, he'll probably just try to get another one under the radar.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285705&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wO8MR893X05FNRGrjWEHnzmyaFEFSD6TPPTkdaDXRBA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285705">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285706" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424115900"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OT but still funny. </p> <p>As a response to this post by a mother whose infant son was exposed to measles (<a href="https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.hibbenwhite/posts/10155168515065632:0">https://www.facebook.com/jennifer.hibbenwhite/posts/10155168515065632:0</a>) </p> <p>...is this new conspiracy! </p> <p><a href="http://www.mothering.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14754&amp;d=1424136926">http://www.mothering.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14754&amp;d=1424…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285706&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tkqdytemxvcxwV-wGam8qEKrkn5LUKIe_cnXSOV2gHk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Annie (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285706">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285707" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424125921"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So sad. Such a brilliant man can be so myopic. Thruston was brilliant and unflappable. Sorry Bill wasn't listening.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285707&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cigZCvcr6KiPtMvidNewH8h_BweTTGyDPNLkhtYMGRE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Toby snelgrove (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285707">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285708" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424126214"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I used to watch Real Time on a regular basis then I just got tired of Maher. He seems to be anti-establishment and that's the sole way he rationalizes his positions. The only thing I can't explain is how he hasn't become anti-govt. All other positions he has are against Big Ag, Big Pharma, Big Oil, and Religion. If even say he's against the media except he's apart of it without realizing it. He's the lazy mans skeptic. In other words he pretends to be a skeptic by the use of logical fallacies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285708&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gMiqtZuaga73G0h2B8qay_7wJsX1yOynmVGW53di0gg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285708">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285709" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424133168"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@#11. Re: Bill Nye</p> <p>I still haven't watched the Ken Hamm "debate" , but I've read a few of the reviews and articles the science guy wrote himself. He did a lot of prep before the event, studied Hamm's techniques and favourite arguments, and made sure there was a very narrowly defined question. </p> <p>Bill Maher is very much in control on his show, does a pretty good Gish Gallop with his various anti vaxx tropes, and does not mind talking over somebody. I've never seen him "cut off someone's mic , like Bill O'Reilley ( Damn confusing with all these Bills) but I bet he'd love to. </p> <p>Bill Nye won't be able to convince Bill Maher, if the topic is even allowed to come up, but he might be able to score some points with the fence sitters in Real Times demographic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285709&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="K0VN3vqegZnhdwzNXn3sEuUM9V9MwjC3l1VKXUyhE8s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NewcoasterMD (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285709">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285710" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424137715"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Annie</p> <p>Thanks for the first link. This woman has style. Anger could be good for inspiration.</p> <p>As for the one from mothering. Must be sad to live with such a worldview.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285710&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O-F4biOxBdWdNZnPpP4eEj8QZobthRs0_gTZWU9Vabg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285710">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285711" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424147980"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re #19<br /> Sara's quote mis-states the role of narrative in communication: "Stories trump facts in making a persuasive case to the public, unfortunately." There's no 'unfortunate ' about it, because it's not a matter of 'trumping' at all – like they are two alternatives to the same end. A choice of 'this' or 'that'. Facts make NO persuasive case to the public whatsoever. Because facts make no SENSE whatever without an organizing frame. </p> <p>So what we're talking about is different kinds of formal structure. The range of options probably isn't a linear spectrum opposite poles (as you might imagine a 'fact - 'story' gradient). But I'm not going to try to model it, just note that some forms are more storytelling-ish than others.</p> <p>As I've noted on RI before, though this is under-researched AFAIK, the research that DOES exist suggests that in broad public terms anyway, narrative is essential for <b>comprehension</b>. Obviously, you can't persuade people if they don't understand what you're talking about to begin with. So, at the receiving end of public communication, if you don't have something story-ish, <i>your facts don't even exist</i>.</p> <p>Of course, you can have a story w/o having scientific fact. But they're not mutually exclusive. A story can present fact.</p> <p>Now, in the Forbes piece when Gallo says, "Stories are irresistible because human beings are hardwired for empathy," he's got it a little muddied because:<br /> • "irresistible" is hyperbole<br /> • we're hardwired for more than empathy, emotionally, and there's more than empathy involved<br /> • the empathy he's actually talking about is a certain kind of empathy, that's engaged by a certain kind of story, or story element at east, and that's not the only kind of narrative that can be brought to bear in persuasion on the topic of vaccination against infectious disease. </p> <p>Or, by example, there's nothing wrong with the heart-tugging of Roald Dahl's story about his daughter's death, but that particular emotion isn't the only way to go about it, and none of the ways require setting science to the side. I can come with story, or follow upon story, it just can't lead the parade or work on its own.</p> <p>There are plenty of facts in the Texas Childrens Hospital book, but it's story based, and uses photos to establish empathy beautifully: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/oj7bhnl">http://tinyurl.com/oj7bhnl</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285711&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MiTIi0ikOtH7dBIJgb1jPHe8mZ_nbWLhNuyY60IcikU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 16 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285711">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285712" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424155369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re: Countering Maher – Dan #26, et al.,</p> <p>Maybe a guest could 'hurt' Maher, but not by being adversarial or challenging him.</p> <p>It's a TV show, not an actual level-ground debate. There's a director, producers, editors: the deck is stacked in more subtle ways than you can even imagine. Have you ever seen a guest on any show truly flip the tables on the host? The shows have a 'script' in that there framed so certain things can/will happen and others won't. Orac's got a lot of that figured out with the way 'Bill' is scheduling guests, putting them in a certain order, defining the topics they'll dscuss...</p> <p>They would never let Bill Nye on the show to debate vaccines with Maher one-on-one. In any context any guest would appear in a segment that touched on vaccines, Maher would be moderating and the same thing would happen to the scientist as happened to Marianne Williamson: not enough time to develop points, too many interruptions from the other noise-makers, no opportunity to string points together into an argument that has any complexity. </p> <p>It's basically a sound-bite toss. As Orac says, the science folks Maher will invite will be there for other reasons, so the guests will have other agendas they <i>want</i> to dscuss, and if they were inclined to take the time to attempt to undermine Maher's position, they wouldn't get it.</p> <p>It's not that Maher never takes flack on his own show, but that's actually 'part of the act' so it's tightly controlled. It's OK for Maher to take a shot, even stagger back a bit before battling back to a 'draw'. It adds story and drama, lets him display his indefatigable pugnaciousness and appear to be fair, It's all theater. (Not in that he's insincere. Just that it's organized.)</p> <p>HOWEVER, Maher is getting on thin ground, pushing the schtick too far. I can only imagine his producers are having screaming fits that he's going to vaccines NOW, two weeks in a row. It's coming off as obsessive, and this is how media figures and especially comedians can lose not just a job, but their whole careers. In fact, I can't recall an "infotainment" star like Maher turning in such a trainwreck performance as he has the last two weeks. He IS an anti-vaxer in his heart-of-hearts, and just like the rest of that crowd coming to the same place from a different angle, he doesn't grasp how Disneyland has changed everything. Throw his ego in on top of his convictions, any time he opens his mouth about vaccines now, he inserts both feet, loses control of the narrative, and starts careening off the rails.</p> <p>So it will be interesting to see the next few weeks of <i>Real Time</i>. I'd guess his producers are fielding warning calls from HBO, and will be trying to keep Bill off any vax related discussion. </p> <p>So the way an interview guest could hurt him is just feed him the bait to keep shooting himself in the foot, by <i>bringing up vaccines</i> in a discussion nominally about something else. Give him the rope, he'll hang himself. The guest doesn't need to debunk him with hard facts. Just not-agree, sound a note of reasonableness about vaccination in the midst of a worrisome outbreak, make Maher look rabid by comparison — not that hard. The viewers aren't going to understand the fact-stuff anyway. They look for 'tells'. Maher starts flailing whenever he gets in the natural-health/anti-vax pool now, and that's what people will see, register, remember.<br /> Over the water cooler:<br /> "So what did Maher say about the vaccine thing, anyway."<br /> "I dunno. Some gobbledygook. But he was coming unhinged."<br /> "Was he funny at least?"<br /> "No. Just... kinda stupid and embarrassing."<br /> "Too bad. He used to have a good show. Did you see John Oliver?<br /> "Yeah, wasn't that awesome!"</p> <p>Speaking of people Maher wouldn't on his show to talk amount vaccines. Oliver would shred him, it would go viral, and Reel Time would be on life support. But neither John Oliver or Bill Nye are getting on that show. Heck, Maher might as well just rbing on Rob Schneider and get it over with.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285712&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SKXTaICM8Kv_-8d2dYZpoCHyvO_gB298-gXvYUJ-R60"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285712">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285713" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424160952"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Baratunde is a very, very smart guy. I met him a few times before he went off to become all famous and stuff. Although he tends to stick to political comedy, he reads a hell of a lot and knows how to carry himself well. Good on him for taking Maher to task.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285713&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IxI8FjE8ZOTK7DhkU5qrU1GdHUozCKQODvU5XptxG90"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285713">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285714" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424165990"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re Bill Nye: remember he's an anti-GMO twit, so not immune to fallacious reasoning himself. I'll bet that's why Maher is having him on the show.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285714&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FMCSuezxsWb6NnT5GAJE5rGdnIEL9SblhsviGclT024"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Skeptico (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285714">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285715" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424167052"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Got it.<br /> So perhaps Narad could tell us how the measles fairy story began as my cocoa is now cold</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285715&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WFmSkjQNcV7S2Hl4aNeUxrdljMz5TnZw879CEhBPRS4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285715">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285716" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424169294"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What is the point of this post and of these self-affirming comment exactly? Is the objective just pile on Bill Maher? Or is everyone in here advocating mandatory government enforced vaccination through the threat of police and imprisonment? Ultimately that is the question. Parental rights over their own children. There is absolutely zero actual scientific points raised herein. I mean, why is there a TV show review on a science blog in the first place. I accept vaccines are the best science available right now. As does Maher. But I'm sorry herd, I don't see criminal intent behind the anti-vaxxers nor do I see legal jurisdiction for the state to force medical decisions upon free citizens. That is the bottom line. I am all for educating the public and I am all for federally funded medical research. But personally that is the extent of this topic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285716&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Phmo_4z_WCZV1loYdSIAsVE2gOqpwA2-YXNM9OgNRLc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Nick Rios (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285716">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285717" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424170173"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Nick Rios</p> <p>There actually is legal jurisdiction for the state to force vaccination on citizens. See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts"><i>Jacobson v Massachusetts</i></a>.</p> <p>Second, no one here is arguing that vaccination should be forced, at penalty of police action, on citizens. At most, what people are saying is that entry into schools should require vaccination, with only medical exemptions allowed. If you do not want to vaccinate your kids, then they don't get to attend public schools or child care. Saying that Maher's critics are calling for police action and/or imprisonment is a strawman.</p> <p>As to why Orac wrote the post, Maher's episode <i>does</i> include matters of science (i.e., vaccination). Maher is spreading misinformation, such as "measles is benign". He should be brought to task for his errors, particularly since some people hold Maher up as a model skeptic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285717&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qPjwy6-VA2lyC8q7Z4yQC28LIA7Zb18OWCIlZrOYJQQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285717">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285718" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424170737"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I believe some insurance companies do not cover home births. You're free to have your baby wherever you choose; however, if there are complications and you require hospitalization, you pay out of your own pocket.</p> <p>A clear case of market forces at work! I think something along these lines should be implemented for vaccine-refusing parents.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285718&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cz-VYf6Uzs-CnLDPmLvil83YYCCYPcgzJA2030E_y2E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285718">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285719" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424171275"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Had all my kids at home, so should I be able to claim the cost back off the health authority for doing the work myself?</p> <p>As a vaccine refuser we have to foot the bill for all the damaged kids out there and we do it without complaining. Measles is benign if it is managed correctly and that issue is not being aired enough.</p> <p>There is no evidence that unvaccinated kids are a threat to anyone. Unless you believe medical peer review - you pays your money you takes your choice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285719&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="95bswPBmtP_sDe92l3dAiC1BhSADHfvAIzrjBK0qclo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285719">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285720" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424171460"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I accept vaccines are the best science available right now." Nick</p> <p>Well it maybe best science but on the lines of weapons of mass destruction it doesn't make it true and that is the issue.</p> <p>Vaccine science is so bent and influenced, you only have to look at the likes of Brian Deer and the MMR to see that. It isn't the same as other science, it is too corrupted.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285720&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3XnekbfBk5Ik6GGceYyYAtAlBybDddXtZh6qapi8VVw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285720">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285721" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424171704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Apparently Nick didn't bother to read the parts of Orac's article that _do_ deal with "actual scientific points" (i.e. about development of flu vaccines, herd immunity, vaccinated vs. unvaccinated studies etc.). </p> <p>Unfortunately, it is all too common for people to rush in with gripes about "piling on" and "tone" while ignoring substantive discussion.</p> <p>"Ultimately that is the question. Parental rights over their own children"</p> <p>I prefer to think that the utlimate good involves what's best for children, not parental rights to "own" them (as one prominent antivaxer described it recently).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285721&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="b09_BpEbeYL6M3OMwRS3l9xRM7btTr33FabySQrnZ1Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285721">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285722" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424171935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Nick Rios</p> <blockquote><p>I accept vaccines are the best science available right now. As does Maher.</p></blockquote> <p>You, yes.<br /> Maher, maybe not that much. He is on record for saying half-trues or, in some cases, for at the minimum misunderstanding how vaccines work.<br /> Notably, I'm thinking of his analogies implying that the immune system is like a muscle and needs exercising, while a vaccine "is doing all the work" - the first part may be half-true, but as someone who catches any passing cold virus, I can tell you that my immune system is getting all the exercise it wants. The second part is false. A vaccine is the equivalent of target practice for your immune cells, with either cardboard targets or live ones, so vaccinating is giving exercise to your immune system.</p> <p>In this context, a physician/surgeon/scientist like Orac could perfectly feel justified in adressing Maher's shortcomings.<br /> Actually, it's his blog. He can talk about post-modernism in Soviet Russia propaganda movies if he feels like it.</p> <blockquote><p>Ultimately that is the question. Parental rights over their own children. </p></blockquote> <p>Completely true, and that's a big issue in the debate.<br /> Most antivaxers are all for being the ultimate judge in what medical treatment their children will receive.<br /> A good number, if not all pro-vaxers here could accept the idea with you can do whatever you want regarding your own health, but whenever your decision impact someone else, even (or especially) your children, the only metric should be the well-being of these other ones.</p> <p>In short, your parental rights don't include the right to put your children - and other children - at risk.<br /> And science says that, by not vaccinating your children, you put them at a greater risk than by vaccinating them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285722&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hLg3JsdKLsl6U2sYOpevCpEXq1ItpZeib_L3ryqNn9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285722">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285723" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174312"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Nick Rios,</p> <p>Nice "government is gonna getcha" rant. I tend to be sympathetic to the libertarian viewpoint myself, but not when those beliefs cause kids to get sick for no good reason. Vaccines don't cause autism, they very rarely "damage" kids (pop socket's blathering to the contrary) and they sure as heck beat the alternative.</p> <p>And as noted, nobody is suggesting that the police are going to storm your house and take away your children because you don't vaccinate them. That's the wacky anti-vax fear mongering at work.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285723&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WshumhzIfmoAXT-ZLOSv2GwEktPrEavD4gbebHqad9Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">a-non (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285723">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285724" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174481"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> Measles is benign if it is managed correctly and that issue is not being aired enough. </p></blockquote> <p><i>bollocks</i></p> <p>It's particularly awful in children under 5, with about 25% hospitalized.</p> <p>Why would any caring parent want their child to experience such suffering?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285724&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vIu0Kmd3bzeGTETlbhsKU0N39Q6bMf3eO4CKioDZm9c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285724">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285725" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174698"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>HOWEVER, Maher is getting on thin ground, pushing the schtick too far. I can only imagine his producers are having screaming fits that he’s going to vaccines NOW, two weeks in a row. It’s coming off as obsessive, and this is how media figures and especially comedians can lose not just a job, but their whole careers. In fact, I can’t recall an “infotainment” star like Maher turning in such a trainwreck performance as he has the last two weeks. He IS an anti-vaxer in his heart-of-hearts, and just like the rest of that crowd coming to the same place from a different angle, he doesn’t grasp how Disneyland has changed everything. Throw his ego in on top of his convictions, any time he opens his mouth about vaccines now, he inserts both feet, loses control of the narrative, and starts careening off the rails.</p></blockquote> <p>What's going on right now is really not all that unlike what happened in the fall of 2009 during the H1N1 pandemic scare. Maher went full mental jacket antivax back then over a series of shows and endured a lot of criticism for it. Guests on his show were even explicitly slapping his antivax nonsense down hard, guests such as Bill Frist (who is a physician), Bob Costas, and Chris Matthews. Matthews and Costas were in fact openly contemptuous of Maher <em>on his own show</em>, with Costas on one show sarcastically retorting in response to Maher's claim that the right diet and healthy living would protect him from the flu, "Oh, come on, Superman!" and Matthews directly comparing Maher's views on vaccines on another show to Scientologists's views on psychiatry. I still remember how that one hit home; Maher looked mortified after Matthews made that remark.</p> <p>Even Maher's people (or at least people Maher liked to think himself part of), skeptics and atheists, were giving him flack five years ago. Maher was awarded the Richard Dawkins Award for promotion of science based on his movie "Religulous," a mistake on the part of the the Atheist Alliance International that resulted in a lot of complaints from skeptics who didn't think someone who was so anti-science with respect to vaccines and "Western medicine" should receive such an award. One of Maher's friends in the skeptical movement, Michael Shermer, took him to task publicly in an open letter on HuffPo(!), of all places. Criticism was everywhere in the circles that Maher appears to care about.</p> <p>I rather suspect Maher survived all that because, thankfully, the H1N1 pandemic didn't turn out nearly as bad as its worst case scenarios, leaving the average person thinking that perhaps the government and health officials went a bit overboard. Still, Maher was clearly stung by the criticism from his own tribe, who (or so he thought) loved him so much for his anti-religion activities. As a result, he laid low for five years, during which I rarely heard of him even mentioning vaccines or indulging in the other criticisms of "Western medicine" he had been dishing out on his show.</p> <p>Then, a few weeks ago, he started up again, culminating in the meltdown stretching over the last two episodes of his show. I'd like to think that this time it's different, and maybe it is. We have a measles outbreak now. People are concerned and not favorably disposed to antivaccinationists. We know the MMR vaccine is very safe and effective; and measles affects mostly children these days. This brings the issue of non-vaccinating parents to the fore.</p> <p>On the other hand, something else is different from five years ago. This time around, I don't see nearly the level of criticism and condemnation directed at Maher as there were five years ago. It's not even close. Other than myself and a couple of other bloggers, basically no one is complaining or criticizing, and mockery of Maher's antivaccine views hasn't even come near the mainstream press, as far as I've been able to tell. Certainly, by and large, Maher's core supporters have not turned against him this time, as some of them did in 2009, or even really started to doubt him, with relatively few exceptions. I couldn't help but note that when a link to my criticism of Maher from last week was posted on the CFI Facebook page, there were a lot of defenders of Bill Maher who were not at all pleased with me. Nor have any "big name" skeptics or atheists as yet called Maher out, as Shermer did five years ago.</p> <p>That's why I think that, unless Maher goes full meltdown over several more episodes, he'll likely be fine, just as he was before. He's made his point and might do another couple of antivaccine segments (albeit likely not next week), but he knows when he's pushed this issue too far. I do hope, however, that HBO is telling his producers to knock it off with the antivaccine nonsense. That's the only thing Maher will listen to, the company paying to run his show telling him to knock it off. Only a credible threat that his show won't be renewed after this season (which, I note, only just started in January, leaving a lot of episodes to go in season 13) is likely to shut him up about this.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285725&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="biSTv1I7Nd3jb2ctgUXdARgZwkB7f8eo-S3DaETO3JU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285725">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285726" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174792"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I mean, why is there a TV show review on a science blog in the first place.</p></blockquote> <p>Because it's my blog and I blog about whatever the hell I feel like blogging about on any given day. Don't like it? No one's forcing you to read.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285726&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W4ZnRUjxX2XMh2hPpSWG1GUBY-sNouTISjGvkDjp8HU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285726">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285727" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424174935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@popsocket #46</p> <p>"Measles is benign if it is managed correctly and that issue is not being aired enough."</p> <p>The issue is not being "aired enough" because it is, quite simply, not true. In the decade prior to 1963 when the MMR was available, the CDC stated that, “nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age.” Yearly, “400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.”</p> <p>Read Preston &amp; Haines, "Fatal Years: Child Mortality in Late 19th-Century America".</p> <p>Also read Guyer et al. "Annual Summary of Vital Statistics: Trends in the Health of Americans During the 20th-Century" </p> <p>"For children older than 1 year of age, the overall decline in mortality during the 20th century has been spectacular. In 1900, &gt;3 in 100 children died between their first and 20th birthday; today, &lt;2 in 1000 die. At the beginning of the 20th century, the leading causes of child mortality were infectious diseases, including diarrheal diseases, diphtheria, measles, pneumonia and influenza, scarlet fever, tuberculosis, typhoid and paratyphoid fevers, and whooping cough. Between 1900 and 1998, the percentage of child deaths attributable to infectious diseases declined from 61.6% to 2%. Accidents accounted for 6.3% of child deaths in 1900, but 43.9% in 1998. Between 1900 and 1998, the death rate from accidents, now usually called unintentional injuries, declined two-thirds, from 47.5 to 15.9 deaths per 100 000."</p> <p>So, no, the only way to "properly manage" measles is through vaccination. Way too many children died prior to the 1960's.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285727&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9egYu-DzH7z2pB39T_YHbDW3JSTGc3tPhXb7njMEF_4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SelenaWolf (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285727">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285728" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424175318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Selena - obviously, prevention is much better than "disease management."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285728&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oW3vJVPIr1SkDTZD08vvtwcGmIFWfj1IaDBWwI7fWZc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285728">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285729" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424175655"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>To complete on my previous answer:</p> <p>Despite my obvious opinion on vaccination, I don't support the idea to "force" vaccination on someone's else children (or on anyone's else, period).<br /> But I certainly support the idea that vaccination should be a prerequisite for attendance to public schools (and even private ones, if they are running in part on taxpayer's money, as they keep wanting to in my country). Except for medical reasons, or if the child got his/her immunities the "natural" way, as I did.</p> <p>Similarly, I see most non-vaccinating parents as misguided and misinformed. I think likening non-vaccination to abuse is going too far. Thus, I'm against the idea of having non-vaccinated children removed from their parents.<br /> On the other hand, in the case of antivaxers parents who also follow other dubious medical beliefs, "medical neglect" may come to mind...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285729&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PM6UZP5Ih-lQxoX7pSZBWvUdLXs-n_mARsD2F4hEAyc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285729">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285730" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424176235"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Lawrence, while I cannot, often, debate the finer points of the science because - well - I'm not a doctor; as an historian, I can address the history. And, as an historian working in a cemetery archive, I see - every damn day - the entries in the burial registers. And the saddest are the children, pages and pages of the under-fives and under-tens who died every day from measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, typhus, etc. I've, always, felt (and more strongly since I became aware of the anti-vax "movement") that every parent who refuses to vaccinate their child, should go to their local cemetery and read through the records. Kinda puts it in perspective.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285730&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ca9rZqioVlHUa0p43sOt2i8tfuH8GkXY8NfimzQhQp8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SelenaWolf (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285730">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285731" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424176430"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just to dogpile on pop socket some more:</p> <blockquote><p>There is no evidence that unvaccinated kids are a threat to anyone.</p></blockquote> <p>Given that the chain of infection of this measles outbreak has been predominantly through the unvaccinated, you are dead wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285731&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Gu4Qt2nX_7MD0unWSiERcrT3eOPZ30G76VXdsxwtZuw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285731">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285732" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424179334"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Had all my kids at home, so should I be able to claim the cost back off the health authority for doing the work myself?</i></p> <p>Ask the NHS for your payments back? Hey, it's worth a try.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285732&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sL566I5qDAoKttUD0lqtWCmHvQaNkf9WZQINl4L7V-I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285732">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285733" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424182380"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Direct questions, pop socket: </p> <blockquote><p>As a vaccine refuser we have to foot the bill for all the damaged kids out there </p></blockquote> <p>Exactly what 'damaged kids' are vaccine refusers footing the bill for, and how has it been factually established that the damage you believe they've suffered is causally associated with vaccines? Be specific.</p> <blockquote><p>“Measles is benign if it is managed correctly and that issue is not being aired enough</p></blockquote> <p>By what rational argument should one prefer to manage a case of measles after an infection has occurred, rather than prevent it from occurring at all?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285733&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rchBguLdPFKg744wzQSmKA0avKpXBsa5GPA3oQdQ4SI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285733">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285734" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424182655"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Had all my kids at home</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, dear, is Phildo changing sexes again?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285734&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y3948k2nxh05CANEzFMpz90RQ4ohKvTqvzRGY6L3s0Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285734">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285735" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183048"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I will go against what seems to be the consensus here. I am in fact advocating mandatory vaccination in anyone for whom it's medically feasible enforced by law.<br /> If smallpox was still around, I wonder how many opponents of mandatory vaccination would reject forced vaccination and/or quarantine in the vicinity of an outbreak or for contacts of the possibly infected, even if it required the National Guard with fixed bayonets on street corners. There was a time not long ago when such situations were not rarities in the US.<br /> The power of government to enforce control of infectious diseases is greater than most people realize. Mandatory contact tracing of STDs is so commonplace that hardly anyone gives it the least thought. I worked one year in the infectious diseases department of a major public hospital. From time to time I filled in for the director of the directly-observed therapy of tuberculosis clinic, and during those weeks I had the awesome power to have noncompliant patients taken into custody by the NYPD and held for forced treatment. Few people would question the value of keeping TB or syphilis patients from infecting others, knowingly or not. I don't. Nor do I see how the introduction of a vaccine into the process changes any of that.<br /> Governments first and foremost have the obligation to protect their citizens; a government that neglects that obligation is not a legitimate government and deserves to be replaced. Societies have the right to defend themselves against serious threats to health and safety; they can only do otherwise based on the overwhelming consensus of their members (ideally). Few people would put their presumed rights of choice above their own safety. Those who do are fools. Not many more would choose to let the vulnerable sicken and die in the name of their personal right of choice. Those who do are despicable. At some point the right to ignore your own safety infringes on the rights of others not to be infected with dangerous diseases.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285735&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ntAyD5AI5TZ7HYz_JKGs1rYdshF6XbISzpUsHd_IpkU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285735">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285736" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424183598"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Oh, dear, is Phildo changing sexes again?</p></blockquote> <p>That or co-opting other people's work...again.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285736&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M5N3NYhONk9FHMP1qhM4dRXqvlwaks9HHQIZ_5EC-K0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285736">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285737" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424184792"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>popsocket (Is that nom de commentary a twist of "sockpuppet"?). I suppose you have your copy of "Melanie's Marvelous Measles". That's what your advocacy of medically managing measles comes down to.<br /> I propose that the author write some books for adults.<br /> "Fifty Shades of Melanoma" comes readily to mind. Of course the author probably opposes Gardasil too, so here's a natural: "Walter's Wonderful Willy Warts".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285737&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="U9DWeMffI5K-eaoxMai_91HuFp9ocf94p6y3e__zA3c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285737">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285738" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424185624"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>If smallpox was still around,</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, but it is still around Dave. They just changed the name to "teenage acne", the same way they changed the name for polio to "muscular dystrophy" or "acute flaccid paralysis",</p> <p>[toggle sarcasm off]</p> <p>Re: <i>Melanie's Marvelous Measles", I've got dibs on </i><i>Peter's Perfect Pertussis</i>. It will, unfortunately, be a very short story.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285738&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ki9eGD0jsq4KBzOBSsDkyMSSENNF7BjVrulPeQ-KxGY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285738">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285739" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424185925"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Might it be plausible to cut Maher's credibility down to size by persuading publicly-known faces of skepticism (like Bill Nye and Neil Tyson) to reject invitations to appear on his show? I can't imagine them degrading themselves enough to appear on the Alex Jones show or Coast-to-Coast AM, but really, what makes Maher different? By appearing on his show and tying their "science cred" to his name, I suspect they make him look more credible than he has any right to. </p> <p>Anyone up for a letter-writing campaign?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285739&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6nMD9ez6zkIeL3UVb-mUYcp5zGkbm6SpvttjgmTAm7s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alex (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285739">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285740" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424191456"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re; Orac #52<br /> Excellent post, good sir! </p> <p>I've never liked Maher – as in I've always found his TV persona to be an annoying jerk who often undermines good causes by hitting below the belt – so I'm not as familiar as I should be with the H1N1 flap to make good comparisons. It's certainly interesting that he's letting less grief now than then. That <i>could</i> be because:<br /> • He's succeeding in establishing his public identity as anti-FLU-vaccine, and most folks don't associate with him anti-vax in general<br /> • Though he's now shown he IS anti-vax, critics are cutting him too much slack because they thing he's just over-doing his flu rant, which is been-there, done-that<br /> • In terms of MMR paranoia and the measles outbreak, he doesn't even make the bad-guy ladder for critics looking at that. If you give me (X) many minutes or column inches in national media to take down anti-vax stupid, I'm going after Jack Wolfson and Rand Paul, not Bill Maher.<br /> • Big name athiests are probably in hiding. Guess who's a huge Bill Maher fan: Craig Hicks. Assorted 'atheist' voices are totally bungling their PR now. If they're not properly condemning Hicks — and they're not — how are they gonna rip Maher for going off the track on vaccines a little bit.</p> <p>If I gave the impression of predicting Maher <i>will</i> actually get himself in career trouble on this go-round, my bad, as I do think he survive just fine unless he melts down further. He's botched it before and recovered OK, he's enough of a pro to have the skills to do it again. </p> <p>It's also true that my concepts and standards of 'train-wreck' are pretty 'inside-baseball' so the kind of professionalism meltdown I'm seeing isn't going to apparent to most viewers, even if it goes on a little longer. Still, it's shocking to me to see someone like Maher lose control of his show two weeks in a row. He does probably have enough savvy at the meta-level to cover, walk-it-back, retreat as he did before... </p> <p>Mainly, i just wanted to share with the minions a take from a very different POV that testifies Maher is actually unhinged, because there's no other way 'Maher' the persona and 'Reel Time' the show go off in that particular direction. It <i>doesn't</i> fit the act, doesn't work as theater. It may be unlikely, but it's <i>possible</i> he could do more, or go even father And you just don't see that on big-time TV.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285740&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ljtb8ngs6hVsvXNA-ipjkV3Ly775rKPYuMm-tFMrfW8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285740">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285741" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424192013"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Old Rockin' Dave @ 64</p> <p>Fffft! It's so good to have you back!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285741&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z7uAyXWlHlRbQPYwbGx0NamhT_O8lcWqV7NACPIkga4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sheepmilker (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285741">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285742" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424192308"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Alex #66. A letter writing campaign is a great idea.<br /> @ Helianthus #56<br /><i>I’m against the idea of having non-vaccinated children removed from their parents.<br /> On the other hand, in the case of antivaxers parents who also follow other dubious medical beliefs, “medical neglect” may come to mind…</i></p> <p>Fundamentally, I also don't believe in taking the kids away from them, but charging them with medical neglect, imo, is justified. But what should the consequences be? I don't know that answer.</p> <p>When I was active in pediatric nursing, we went through the debate re: who "owns" the children. It's a tough one---but, in this case, the government "owns" the responsibility to protect the public health. </p> <p>My sense is that social pressure will ultimately help change things for the fence sitters. I sure hope so.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285742&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ADtK0JUCLTQr9bxYa0S2eM_9FhKf2MS0Gn3ifFpx8kQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pragmatist (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285742">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424193547"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> I propose that the author write some books for adults.<br /> “Fifty Shades of Melanoma” comes readily to mind. Of course the author probably opposes Gardasil too, so here’s a natural: “Walter’s Wonderful Willy Warts”. </p></blockquote> <p>See this review on Amazon for the titles of a few other fine titles from the same author.</p> <p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ALP6J4FPWE2W">http://www.amazon.com/review/R2ALP6J4FPWE2W</a></p> <p>Abby's Absolutely Abundant Abscess<br /> Addie's Adorable Adenoma<br /> Adelia's Addled Alzheimer's<br /> Andys Amazing AIDS<br /> Anne's Incandescent Anorexia<br /> Annette's Astonishing Aneurysm<br /> Annie's Awesome Asthma<br /> Arnie's Artful Addiction<br /> Barack's Baroque Barbiturate Overdose<br /> Barry's Bitchin Beri Beri<br /> Beatrice's Bawdy Bronchitis<br /> Bella's Beloved Bell's Palsy<br /> Bennett's Breathtaking Boil<br /> Bertha's Blossoming Bulimia<br /> Billy's Bodacious Botulism<br /> Bobby's Bitchin Bubonic Plague<br /> Bobby's Bubbling Buboes<br /> Bob's Bodacious Bone Break<br /> Boris's Big Blister<br /> Bradley's Brilliant Bradycardia</p> <p>and it goes on like that. Every disease I've ever heard of, and several I've not.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y-nwb97gUlNIeAkZVpijQWNvZiIgF01auVCNFgUpbG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285744" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424195537"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>By and large, Maher’s core supporters have not turned against him, or even really started to doubt him. When a link to my criticism of Maher was posted on the CFI Facebook page, there were a lot of Maher defenders who were not at all pleased with me.</p></blockquote> <p>Hang in there, doc! It takes time. Even geting a new idea up in public that requires no opinion reversal takes repetition, repetition,, repetition, and more repetition. On top of that, before Maher fans would ever utter a "Yup", on a public forum they'd need the time to go through something like the good Kubler-Ross grief process. </p> <p>As a lot of skeptic-athiest folks are testy and combative 'by nature', there's probably no way to discern 'normal' responses to attacks on one of their icons, with 'denial-anger' responses stemming from actually seeing the icon's feet of clay.</p> <p>To the extent Maher's worth the time and effort — and he very well might be — the thing to do is keep pouring it on. </p> <p>Thus, for my part, I'm especially interested in how two guests Maher has brought on to be 'sympathetic' have actually skewered him more on-point than the 'adversaries' — just in ways that might not jump out from the screen. Last week Williamson, and this week David Duchovney. </p> <p>I'm going to break down that DD exchange in detail soon, as the maybe-a-bit-subtle things happening there really expose — not just Maher as an individual – but the larger sicknesses at the core of anti-vax 'thinking', DD wasn't actually dumping on the flu vaccine, just giving Bill a bit of room trying to get his agenda back in play over Maher's repeated hi-jack attempts. But that's all minor detail compared to the China burn. On <i>substance</i> that's as strong.as Matthews Scientology reference (and DD kept counter-punching, in his own way). It's just that Duchovney doesn't have the force and sting of Matthews' delivery, nor could he. He's not a respected veteran journalist and pundit. If he has a pugnacious jab in him, which I doubt, he's smart enough to know he couldn't get away with it. So he stays within his "soft" self.</p> <p>Apologies for my reading fail in saying Maher wouldn't let Bill Nye on the show, when Bill Nye came up because he's scheduled to be on the show (face-palm). But I should have realized that Nye presents only a very limited danger-potentional for Maher, since he's just too nice to get in Maher's face, and score even a Costas-like shot that would get Maher visibly rattled. Make no mistake – he knew Williamson and Duchovney hit him, and he was back on his heels in both cases. But he covered well enough few would notice, especially given the confirmation bias of his fan base. I'd guess the same would happen if Maher gave Nye a little opening, which he probably won't. But we'll see. As Arte Johnson would say; "Veeery interessting!"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285744&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CLDqU9EKSQbnToFpWnjEZdqGFDG_q5xCNsaEHvCbVAE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285744">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285745" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424197278"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re Alex # 66: A 'science' boycott of Maher would actually be counter-productive. Nye or Tyson don't give Maher cred he can't get from other sources. He loses nothing if they refuse to appear, skepticism loses its small voice on the show, and the refuseniks look like asshats or cowards. If Rand Paul is willing to go on Real Time, how does it look of Tyson isn't?</p> <p>There's a huge difference between Maher's show and a right-wing kook show. First, Maher may <i>be</i> a kook, but he only espouses kook positions on some things. More importantly, the format of the shows are very different. Right-wing talk shows are like Darrell Issa committee hearings: anybody outside the bubble who shows up is in for a beating and an attempt to humiliate them. For all the stage-managing and control Maher exerts, his show nevertheless gives the impression of a more free exchange of ideas.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285745&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MTzo3lDvRRLbSY6Grm4tKk9yCepfw_4wzLt-uMpFu8k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285745">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285746" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424206384"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Old Rockin' Dave @ 62:</p> <p>You tell 'em! I thoroughly endorse everything you said, plus I would like some serious scrutiny into how many of these "contraindications" are real and how many imaginary. I never heard of anybody being exempted from vaccines when I was a kid and I never heard of any untoward effects, either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285746&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3Q1KvPSkkx9Eausmhr2oyRa78SKwHMZ82botm2u2J50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285746">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285747" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424213517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The power of government to enforce control of infectious diseases is greater than most people realize.</p></blockquote> <p>And it's less than you seem to presume. Tuberculosis is apropos of exactly nothing, even if you don't "see how the introduction of a vaccine into the process changes any of that."</p> <p>Why not just order BCG for everyone? Oh, wait, that's because the exercise of the police power of the state is limited, even in the case of a compelling public-health interest, by the requirement of using the <i>least restrictive means</i>.</p> <p>You think <b>vaccines</b> would pass muster? Go take look at <a href="https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/494/210/"><i>Washington v. Harper</i></a> (or the third prong of the <i>Sell</i> test, that it necessary for a "court to conclude that involuntary medication is <i>necessary</i> to further [important governmental] interests"), and see how promising that looks as public policy. Prisons have a <a href="http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2008/02/hlaw1-0802.html">lower</a> bar than general governance.</p> <p>I'd just as soon leave the dystopian fantasizing to the antivaccine nuts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285747&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Rfg2vofsFIL3I9avEbqa0WAkC9oOn8VAFvtqX7zFcDg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285747">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285748" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424216516"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think it's worth thinking about Maher in terms of changed attitudes and changed behaviors. Is anyone going to do anything different because of him? I suspect it's a relative few - either people are cemented in their biases and seek him out for validation, or they ignore his screeds on vaccines so that they can reinforce their other prior biases about other things. He's just white noise.</p> <p>It's better to focus on those flying under the cover of "health freedom" or "parental choice", and dissect them publicly. People react quite differently when they find out they've been deceived unwillingly, rather than calling them out for their own willful self-deception.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285748&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6KThe_u3Tjmjq-dRkMyH52HV49w7xstzNH4SUbGj6VA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadasd (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285748">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285749" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424219174"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I’d just as soon leave the dystopian fantasizing to the antivaccine nuts.</p></blockquote> <p>I don't think there's anything the least bit dystopian about the public authorities doing everything in their power to safeguard the public health. I think that's miles below the minimum we should expect from any functioning government.</p> <p>Anyway, 35 years ago, this was the way things were. Kids were required to go to school, public or private, and they were required to be vaccinated. There were no exemptions except medical ones. We seem to have survived that "dystopia", and I think it should be implemented again--yesterday.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285749&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4GlCFKRsB2Pxzobk4vY4Fr5jzSGjHq3IqRsksz7SvPY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge">The Very Rever… (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285749">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285750" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424229407"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Anyway, 35 years ago, this was the way things were. Kids were required to go to school, public or private, and they were required to be vaccinated. There were no exemptions except medical ones.</p></blockquote> <p>What, it's Volk history time?</p> <p>That's a year <b>after</b> Mississippi peculiarly wrapped up <i>Brown v. Stone</i>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285750&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wfsrCymlWGqZIoA6Cj9CupvetA6_SgmKg6mBOejFXKc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 17 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285750">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285751" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424237221"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>It’s better to focus on those flying under the cover of “health freedom” or “parental choice”, and dissect them publicly. People react quite differently when they find out they’ve been deceived unwillingly, rather than calling them out for their own willful self-deception.</p></blockquote> <p>Hmmm. Yes and no. Personally, I find dissecting Bill Maher's antivaccine nuttery to be a useful exercise to remind skeptics and atheists that they can be just as irrational as believers in the supernatural and proponents of pseudoscience. That's probably why some of them react so poorly to it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285751&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ln9-m6FGFh_w0A0s__u3xvOT-IiBmYWyzlyB1wyrz5Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285751">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285752" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424250467"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just about 35 years ago I remember my best friend telling me that she didn't have to get whatever vaccinations were being done in school because they were Christian Scientist. I remember being jealous that she got to avoid getting shots. So, at least in Colorado, they had religious exemption 35 years ago.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285752&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I2jNqjQELZ4Pr5zTmLn1vogly6zBCcBS-kvnOnIeF98"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">AKK (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285752">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285753" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424259984"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad: TB is most appropriate. So are STDs. There is a compelling interest in eradicating or reducing the incidence of communicable diseases that cause death or serious harm.<br /> Compelling someone to undergo TB therapy is for that exact purpose. So is contact tracing of STDs. So is quarantine in serious epidemics, as well as banning public gatherings in such cases. Requiring someone to take medication for TB differs from compelling a vaccination in what way?<br /> What is dystopian is a society in which people have the ability, worse, the explicit right, to spread disease to the unwilling, the unknowing, and the vulnerable. In such a society it is those people who will be forced into involuntary quarantine; this is the exact inversion of civilized values.more deeply, but it's still there. There are people who would codify that exact thing into law.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285753&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XvN5-YWxLWtk3jQmQHkiyxeZNl74kmMf-ltMcVLeJ-0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ol.d Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285753">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285754" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424260114"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I forgot to edit out a fragment. Ignore this: "more deeply, but it’s still there."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285754&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sJyi5FiyEGBNUgPRpYEe2wc0ZBTPMdLPIhMuBSE1O7U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285754">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285755" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424260474"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bill Maher's problem is that he doesn't understand how vaccines and the immune system work. He thinks that vaccines prevent the immune system from being exposed or challenged by a bug.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285755&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v0xYXziTlo2rCO27sPIGPq2JgkJqKj2bdxEiPZt5KWA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Peter (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285755">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285756" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424266746"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My comment #80 refers to a prior comment of mine that seems to have vanished into the dark recesses of Teh Interweb tube system.<br /> Narad, TB is very relevant. It's a deadly disease that can be passed to the unknowing, unwilling, and vulnerable. People with active communicable TB don't get a choice about being prevented from spreading it. They either comply, or at some point they are confined and forced to accept treatment. It's not for their own good. It's for everyone else's.<br /> What would be dystopian would be a society that permits, even encourages, people to avoid appropriate treatment or prevention of dangerous diseases aimed at stopping their spread. It's not so long ago that TB was menace to the population at large. Multidrug resistance may bring that menace back to life.<br /> If lethal infections are not a compelling public interest, I'm not sure what is.<br /> Nowhere did I mention prisons (although I have some small experience of corrections medicine). No one was sent to prison for noncompliance since it's not a crime. The procedure for noncompliant patients was/is to bring them to the hospital for confinement in a locked and guarded unit until treatment was completed. Thankfully, I never had to do that, and I only knew of one case where that was done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285756&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1D1g4bbAdnyCvgJ_yMtpUwOcSULA6n6xIunztMtOKRM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285756">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285757" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424273662"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I could not believe the ignorance spouted by Maher as I watched his show the other night. I was so upset by his disregard for the body of knowledge about the necessity and benefits of immunization I decided to reacquaint myself with this knowledge. At historyofvaccines.org from the University of Pennsylvania's website. Edward Jenner started the research on what was called variolation in 1749 to try to find a way to stop smallpox scourges that wiped out populations in Europe and American. Louis Pasteur 1813 established the first vaccine agency in France addressing problems of rabies and anthrax in sheep. And on and on. Decade after decade of scientific research, proven with data that immunization so save lives and protects the PUBLIC HEALTH. Diseases such as Tuberculosis, Diptheria, Measles, Whooping Cough, Polio, Yellow Fever, down to the 17 strains of influenza in the 1930. And on ad ad nauseous. This body of work cannot be denied.<br /> One aspect Bill Maher failed to mention were the<br /> COMPLICATIONS that result from measles both for the patient and for example a pregnant woman who's baby can be infected in utero.<br /> His thinking seems to have been infected, by the now discredited and fraudulent Andrew Wakefield from England.<br /> Maher is always going on about "stupid", and last night he amply demonstrated his own.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285757&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u7vlKEoZ3ERDg6V7LwD1VhXOD3Ee2cd6t9B4kH3jvMk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Anna (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285757">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285758" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424285534"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>So, at least in Colorado, they had religious exemption 35 years ago.</p></blockquote> <p>Massachusetts had a religious exemption in 1967, which was overturned <a href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9203742500400935996&amp;hl=en&amp;as_sdt=6&amp;as_vis=1&amp;oi=scholarr">in 1971</a> for a predictable reason. I'm not sure when they got around to removing the offending language to reinstate the religious exemption.</p> <p>The legislative history for North Carolina's religious exemption is summarized <a href="http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_130A/GS_130A-157.html">here</a>, if anybody feels like tracking the wording over time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285758&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PPXUoPqof_Z5joqds1fbA_UNMZYCG4_eWIfzGwsDaxU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285758">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285759" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424285844"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ California's personal-belief exemption was created <a href="http://www.oclaw.org/research/code/ca/HSC/120365./content.html">in 1995</a>, BTW.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285759&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bCQagITTJebN0dFc7jIMLm-QOr0fiof_3vRVuDxZvQU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285759">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285760" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424286475"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Narad, TB is very relevant. It’s a deadly disease that can be passed to the unknowing, unwilling, and vulnerable. People with active communicable TB don’t get a choice about being prevented from spreading it. They either comply, or at some point they are confined and forced to accept treatment.</p></blockquote> <p>I <b>know</b> this. It has nothing to do with forcibly vaccinating people who don't have "active communicable" <i>anything</i>.</p> <blockquote><p>Nowhere did I mention prisons (although I have some small experience of corrections medicine). No one was sent to prison for noncompliance since it’s not a crime.</p></blockquote> <p>You're missing the reason that I did: it's hard to forcibly medicate <i>prisoners</i>, who have fewer rights than the general populace. The notion that "mandatory vaccination in anyone for whom it’s medically feasible enforced by law" would be constitutional is plainly absurd, whether or not it's tarted up with a smallpox scenario and "the National Guard with fixed bayonets on street corners," wrapped up with "[t]here was a time not long ago when such situations were not rarities in the US."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285760&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RVBQlEx5yeigoRdStEDhwarl5TYelw1nIbMgso39t7U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285760">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285761" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424290152"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bill Maher needs to be slapped down as often as he voices those silly ideas.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285761&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wNQOdpEFQ6AqeakEkg7MBuxaKPqX_OvsdrVT5HytZ2c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DLC (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285761">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285762" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424296086"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I cannot remember being this embarrassed by a fellow liberal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285762&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YReSkFl2emV8ajE54RVurQDtcycQ9g-bELiNGyUCq5w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kurt Simerman (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285762">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285763" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424305329"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mr. Simerman, libertarian is often not liberal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285763&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3idYZN5D_ElwrUnLtSDS8-r5QWeeQxAUDJszFGpWgpA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285763">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285764" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424321628"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" The notion that “mandatory vaccination in anyone for whom it’s medically feasible enforced by law” would be constitutional is plainly absurd..."<br /> Could you cite a relevant Federal court decision?<br /> I'm not a legal scholar, but if you are you should have the name of at least one, maybe even a link or two, to hand.<br /> To belabor my point a little more, there are some things the courts have permitted or denied based on their readings of Constitutional law that are right only in a strictly legal sense and not in any way right in any other way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285764&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LYqJmDNkoJJalZTOD4BkhYAjxBe46GAa-oW5tWMl6z0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Old Rockin&#039; Dave (not verified)</span> on 18 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285764">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285765" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424350079"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's good to know that, if Bill or any of his family get seriously ill or are involved in a serious accident they won't bother taking up valuable space in a hospital.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285765&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zkEmjkfgHoBcleDkTe0TtMAFM1b2oXsye2FmB_AB6UI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jimbobogie (not verified)</span> on 19 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285765">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285766" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424354973"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>While mercury has received much of the attention, aluminum (found in most vaccines) is also a major culprit in this shocking saga. Added to most vaccine are a number of substances either used during manufacturing or designed as an immune booster (adjuvant). These substances include albumin, aluminum (either as hydrated aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate or alum, also known as hydrated aluminum potassium sulfate), various amino acids, DNA residues, egg protein, gelatin, surfactants, monosodium glutamate (MSG), MRC-5 cellular protein, Thimerosal, and various antibiotics. Not listed on official lists are bacterial and viral contaminants, which can include their particulate, fragmented matter [94,95].</p> <p>Aluminum compounds serve to dramatically boost and prolong the immune reaction to the vaccination. Some aluminum remains in the site of injection for years. Aluminum was first added to vaccines in 1926. Aluminum compounds as well as other vaccine components boost immunity-including some undesirable components of the immune system such as B-cells.</p> <p>Because vaccine adjuvants are designed to produce prolonged immune stimulation, they pose a particular hazard to the developing nervous system. Studies have shown that immune activation following vaccination can last up to two years. This means that the brain's microglial cells are also primed for the same length of time or possibly longer.</p> <p>A new emerging syndrome called macrophagic myofasciitishas been attributed to the aluminum adjuvant in vaccines and is especially associated with the hepatitis B vaccine and the adsorbed tetanus vaccine [100]. Victims of this syndrome suffer severe muscle and joint pains and severe weakness. Subsequent studies conducted since the syndrome was first described in France, indicate widespread, severe brain injury as well- confirmed by MRI scanning [101,102]. This brain syndrome has been described in American children as well.</p> <p>It is known that aluminum can accumulate in the brain and that this accumulated aluminum is associated with neurodegeneration. The evidence for a link between aluminum neurotoxicity and Alzheimer's disease continues to mount. Aluminum, like mercury, activates microglia leading to chronic brain inflammation-a major event in both Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease [103-110].</p> <p>Flarend et al. conducted a study (using radiolabelled aluminum [26Al]) in which either of two approved forms of adjuvants (aluminum hydroxide or aluminum phosphate) used in vaccines were injected at a dose approved by the FDA (0.85 mg per dose) [111]. The results showed that aluminum was rapidly absorbed into the blood from both forms. However, aluminum phosphate was absorbed faster and produced tissue levels 2.9 times higher than aluminum hydroxide. Blood levels of aluminum remained elevated for 28 days with both adjuvants. Elevated aluminum levels were found in the kidney, spleen, liver, heart, lymph nodes, and brain.</p> <p>Thus, aluminum from vaccines is redistributed to numerous organs including the brain where it can accumulate. Each vaccine adds to this tissue level of aluminum. A total dose of 30.6 mg (and not the 0.85 mg considered safe by the FDA) is available when we calculate the total aluminum dose available from 36 vaccinations. Of course, not all of this aluminum ends up in the tissues. However, aluminum can accumulate in substantial amounts from ingesting foods containing aluminum and from drinking water. When a number of aluminum-containing vaccines are administered to a child during a single office visit, aluminum blood levels rise rapidly and can persist at a high elevation for over a month. During this period of high elevation, aluminum infiltrates the tissues, including the brain.</p> <p>It is also known that aluminum enhances the toxicity of mercury and that aluminum, even from sources other than vaccines, increases inflammation in the body [106]. The question no one seems to be asking is this: Does the aluminum act as a constant source of brain inflammation? Research, especially focusing on aluminum-triggered microglial activation, seems to indicate it does [112]. Dr. Anna Strunecka, professor of physiology, found aluminum readily binds with fluoride to form fluoroaluminum and that this compound can active G-protein receptors that control a number of neurotransmitters, including glutamate receptors [46]. Administering multiple aluminum-containing vaccines at once raises blood and tissue levels much higher than when these same vaccines are administered separately. Fluoride in drinking water, certain foods, and dental treatments can react with the brain aluminum, creating the neurotoxic fluoroaluminum combination. Studies have shown that fluoride also accumulates in the brain.</p> <p>[46] Strunecka A, Patocka J, Blaylock RL et al. Fluoride interactions: from molecules to disease. Current Signal Transduction Therapy 2007; 2(3):190-213</p> <p>[94] Cutrone R et al. Some oral polio vaccines were contaminated with infectious SV-40 after 1961. Can Res 2005;65:10273-9.</p> <p>[95] Harasawa R, Tomiyama T. Evidence of pestivirus RNA in human virus vaccines. J Clin Microbiol 1994;32:1604-5.</p> <p>[100] Gherardi RK et al. Macrophagic myofasciitis lesion assess long-term persistence of vaccine-derived aluminum hydroxide in muscle. Brain 2001;124:1821-31.</p> <p>[101] Authier F-J et al. Central nervous system disease in patients with macrophagic myofasciitis. Brain 2001;124:974-83.</p> <p>[102] Bonnefont-Rousselot D et al. Blood oxidative status in patients with macrophagic myofasciitis. Biomed Pharmacol 2004;58:516-9.</p> <p>[103] Good PF et al. Selective accumulation of aluminum and iron in the neurofibrilary tangles of Alzheimer's disease: a laser microprobe (LAMMA) study. Ann Neurol 1992;31:286-92.</p> <p>[104] Esparza JL et al. Aluminum-induced pro-oxidant effect in rats: protective role of exogenous melatonin. J Pineal Res 2003;35:32-9.</p> <p>[105] Yokel RA et al. The distribution of aluminum into and out of the brain. J Inorg Biochem 1999;76:127-32.</p> <p>[106] Campbell A et al. Chronic exposure to aluminum in drinking water increases inflammatory parameters selectively in the brain. J Neuroscience Res 2004;75:565-72.</p> <p>[107] Bishop NJ et al. Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous feeding solutions. N Engl J Med 1997;336:1557-61.</p> <p>[108] Campbell A. Inflammation, neurodegenerative disease, and environmental exposures. Ann NY Acad Sci 2004;1035:117-32.</p> <p>[109] Shirabe T et al. Autopsy case of aluminum encephalopathy. Neuropathology 2002;22:206-10.</p> <p>[110] Armstrong RA et al. Hypothesis: Is Alzheimer's disease a metal-induced immune disorder. Neurodegeneration 1995;4:107-11.</p> <p>[111] Flarend RE, Hem SL, White JL, Elmore D, Suckow MA, Rudy AC, Dandashli EA. In vivo absorption of aluminum-containing vaccine adjuvants using 26Al. Vaccine 1997 Aug.-Sept.;15(12-13):1314-8.</p> <p>[112] Platt B et al. Aluminum toxicity in the rat brain: histochemical and immunocytochemical evidence. Brain Res Bull 2001;55:257-67.</p> <p><a href="http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/prevention/immunity/vaccinations/168-danger-excessive-vaccination-during-brain-development?showall=1&amp;limitstart=">http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/prevention/immunity/vaccinations/168-da…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285766&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f-8QIKxhqj1ve32kaYitBPPpF8eiHd1kMOoF26x6jh0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bricktop (not verified)</span> on 19 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285766">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285767" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424368420"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bricktop - citation needed for the stunningly ridiculous statements: "Some aluminum remains in the site of injection for years. " and "A total dose of 30.6 mg (and not the 0.85 mg considered safe by the FDA) is available when we calculate the total aluminum dose available from 36 vaccinations."</p> <p>I can only hope other readers of this blog (or Orac himself) with better insights and knowledge of the scientific literature related to vaccines can counter the wide ranging, spurious diatribe that the comment #93 represents. </p> <p>In the interim, I will endeavor to understand whether the quoted material supports the seemingly categorical perspective put forward.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285767&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LJjnFQNymE2Xll9_24G4E_foYdOL84i_wP-slbvuF0s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chemist (not verified)</span> on 19 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285767">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285768" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424377254"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>In the interim, I will endeavor to understand whether the quoted material supports the seemingly categorical perspective put forward.</i></p> <p>You could be wasting your time. Bricktop is a copy-pasting troll, <a href="http://www.heartmdinstitute.com/prevention/immunity/vaccinations/168-danger-excessive-vaccination-during-brain-development?showall=&amp;start=7">plagiarising from Blaylock</a>. Probably also sockpuppeting <a href="http://shotofprevention.com/2012/02/13/vaccines-that-help-heal/">as Richids here</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285768&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_PbvWpI9WBXuZ57Sm84slcbbmsqXyMKrZHPUkEf4Nto"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 19 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285768">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285769" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424563419"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ sadasd #75</p> <blockquote><p> People are cemented in their biases and seek Maher out for validation, or they ignore his screeds on vaccines so that they can reinforce their other prior biases about other things. Is anyone going to do anything different because of him?</p></blockquote> <p>Wrong question. If you look at short term attitude and behavior <i>change</i>, all the research shows mass communication has almost no effect, and audiences respond with "selective perception" i.e. sociology-talk for "confirmation bias." Yet advertisers, who have their sh!t researched up the wazoo, spend billions a year. Pepsi knows they lose sales slowly but eventually quite dramatically if they stopped advertising. But nobody at Pepsi thinks any ad they run is going to convince a Coke drinker to switch. It's a long term process of drips from multiple faucets dropping over and over until you get a nice stream. Maher's just one faucet, but he has millions of viewers. One toxic anti-vax drip from Bill multipiled through all those TV puts more poison into the public discourse than 50 Olmsted columns. </p> <p>But the big reason you expose Maher is along the lines Orac mentions in #78, but for a much wider audience than skeptics and atheists. <i>Nobody sees it coming!</i> AoA is <i>obvious/i&gt; propaganda. If you're not in the fold, your defenses go up the minute you see that kind of stuff. Wrap it jokes or 'liberal gadfly theater' and no ones the wiser. </i></p> <p>I always SMH when decent folks tell me how much they like <i>The Incredibles</i>. It's cute, charming and entertaining, very well made... and utterly fascistic to the core. I especially cringe when nerdy-sciency types praise it, as it's so cruelly anti-intellectual. </p> <p>Gang: we're Syndrome, daring to think we change the world for the better with intelligence and technology. But no, says the movie, that is left for the Supers, physically superior by birth, who have been dragged down into the gray masses. The scientist, recognizing his genetic inferiority turns to EVIL, and only by freeing the Supers from their mundane lives that the may hold their Naturally Superior position can humanity be saved!</p> <p>Did they sneak that one by you, or anyone you know? Did it change your mind about science? No, of course not. Now think of all the kids who saw it, and remember the story, and have never thought about it, and then a Super-Mom tells them about evil science nerds trying to destroy all the special children with a diabolical plot to cause Autism with thimerisol. </p> <p>It's when you're not thinking about it that it gets you. It happens later, not now. And one guy like Maher can't do it alone. BUT, show folks how Maher works, they start to get wise, and hopefully get more properly skeptical about other "harmless entertainments".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285769&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qKPlVjzRJVGd4sfbhHJbxlPeH1YrrwauNW_4SRxLPOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 21 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285769">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285770" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424679648"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bricktop appears to be spamming that comment multiple places, including a gish-gallop attack (along with one other antivaxx commentor), spamming the comment thread for a negative review of an antivax book ("dissolving illusions", ugh) on Amazon.</p> <p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/review/R1C1ZYX11ON8TA/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&amp;asin=1480216895&amp;cdForum=Fx28U0CZVZDOVBB&amp;cdMsgID=Mx21Z81KKR8CS1J&amp;cdMsgNo=85&amp;cdPage=9&amp;cdSort=oldest&amp;cdThread=Tx3IADG8MGYXGLQ&amp;store=books#Mx21Z81KKR8CS1J">Permalink</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285770&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LxKOY3ngiU5h621ipaesQzcE0F4lyPY3KmV_RucvNf4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brian S (not verified)</span> on 23 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285770">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285771" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424684509"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>From Bricktop </p> <blockquote><p>Aluminum compounds as well as other vaccine components boost immunity-including some undesirable components of the immune system such as B-cells.</p></blockquote> <p>Something must be missing in the last sentence.<br /> Because, if not, now B-cells are an undesirable component of the immune system. That's a bit revolutionary, as statements go.<br /> B-cells are in charge of producing antibodies specific to the invading pathogens.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285771&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mKddSl0EKJGWvG8mK2LHrmNFkj8ieZem-fftnxNLCYk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 23 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285771">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285772" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424743508"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>” The notion that “mandatory vaccination in anyone for whom it’s medically feasible enforced by law” would be constitutional is plainly absurd…”<br /> Could you cite a relevant Federal court decision?</p></blockquote> <p>Sure. Hang on for a few sentences.</p> <blockquote><p>I’m not a legal scholar, but if you are</p></blockquote> <p>Nope, more a seat-of-the-pants type.</p> <blockquote><p>you should have the name of at least one, maybe even a link or two, to hand.</p></blockquote> <p>.</p> <p>Does <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449224/">this</a> help?</p> <blockquote><p>To belabor my point a little more, there are some things the courts have permitted or denied based on their readings of Constitutional law that are right only in a strictly legal sense and not in any way right in any other way.</p></blockquote> <p>Fun fact: That "shouting fire in a theater" bit <a href="https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-hackneyed-apologia-for-censorship-are-enough/">comes from</a> "three generations of imbeciles are enough" <i>Buck v. Bell</i>.</p> <p>Your draconian fantasy ain't happening.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285772&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WHxxp8QX191hIB7uVMMDhTxelXazYMhjTXNMYaK11r4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285772">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285773" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424743746"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Something must be missing in the last sentence.<br /> Because, if not, now B-cells are an undesirable component of the immune system.</p></blockquote> <p>It's the whole "Th2 skewing" script over again.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285773&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="N5JzdLGd7msCqSCEo4wx65YYOsug5sq4pZjnNZ2KeTM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 23 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285773">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285774" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424885425"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>H1N1 scam. It was total bollocks</p></blockquote> <p>H1N1 was a scam? I want my sick leave back then. I imagine a whole lot of others do as well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285774&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="V1pLTg0MwGSud5TDK_jrQXQNPxUy2JpxwV87O5nmv8I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">justthestats (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285774">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285775" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424885559"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@herr doktor</p> <blockquote><p>You would think that a single false e-mail address would be enough. How are multiple made-up addresses supposed to provide greater anonymity?</p></blockquote> <p>I suspect either he thinks that makes him harder to ban, or he just doesn't bother to remember what he put in before.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285775&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VKoP-caAk7eWC-izIb4kzWzbBC5TDa0WIaLCxQEQLvc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">justthestats (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285775">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285776" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424886935"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>he just doesn’t bother to remember what he put in before</i></p> <p>I imagine that Pop Socket Phil has set his browser to delete all log-in details and browsing history at the end of each furtive session.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285776&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LO7Nsdij0ywmRiZ_daImN81CVxlwaDurh0CKK63CqbU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285776">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285777" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424887434"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@justthestats So do a lot of folks I know, and a friend wants her husband back, while another family I know of wants the mom and the baby from her then-6-month pregnancy back.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285777&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HI08Yu9IWg-9rm-HWLf1vVA2n3N6UH5jMGfjVeKwiz8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 25 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285777">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285778" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1427632495"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You would think that a single false e-mail address would be enough. How are multiple made-up addresses supposed to provide greater anonymity?</p></blockquote> <p>It <i>would</i> defeat Gravatar tracking; any time one comments on a site that has it enabled, Gravatar gets an MD5 hash of the E-mail address (and of course, they're displayed right in the open with the comment itself) so that it can follow the address around, which is the business model.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285778&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oGXMDhA3htzm2pG_Xa4q6Y-ijVsaqVTtLSFQzM6yxl4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 29 Mar 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285778">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285779" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1431378628"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why didn't you just post the video of Bill Maher…..it would have been more interesting than listening to your very one sided view of things. You sound pretty proud of yourself in your one-sided, arrogant argument. What about the science in all the vaccine injuries? Does it really make much sense how many shots have been added to the schedule over the years? Do you think the pharmaceutical industry has your best interest at heart? You are a fool if you do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285779&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KoMBh0Zz4lpLZPqF46rHuXg3yZV2z0OsFQ3t43cbwwA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Amy (not verified)</span> on 11 May 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285779">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285780" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1431381148"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Why don't you read the article above? If you did you will notice it included these words:</p> <p>"Unfortunately, unlike last week, Maher’s crew didn’t post just the vaccine segment, but rather other segments of the show, although Maher did post a relatively low resolution version of the whole show on his Google+ feed. So I’ll just tell you the relevant time marks as I go through this, and you can go look at the video if you wish."</p> <p>It was obviously so embarrassing they decided to not post online a video from a premium pay channel.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285780&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6MXVH14-VTJb4y9v-K7aGOsFczhKTYQlC8-5kcGQ3aY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 11 May 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285780">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1285781" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1431404362"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Amy - maybe not the companies, but how about all of the employees, most of whom vaccinate their kids - and the FDA responsible for the rigorous clinical trials that can take a decade or more before a single vaccine makes it to market (and routinely rejects treatments that don't past muster) or the WHO, CDC and all of the other regulatory agencies worldwide who have an interest and track vaccine safety?</p> <p>Are you really going to claim that vaccine safety isn't taken seriously, when literally millions of people are involved in making sure that they are?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1285781&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BY5uX7NxrkfR6HDPJ_1s8qUN10nn3lqu1YG0bAHe6gM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 12 May 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1285781">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/insolence/2015/02/16/bill-maher-doubles-down-on-antivaccine-misinformation-again%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 16 Feb 2015 00:01:55 +0000 oracknows 21989 at https://scienceblogs.com After five years, Bill Maher lets his antivaccine freak flag fly again https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/09/after-five-years-bill-maher-lets-his-antivaccine-freak-flag-fly-again <span>After five years, Bill Maher lets his antivaccine freak flag fly again</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2015/01/Bill_Maher_a_l.jpg"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/files/2015/01/Bill_Maher_a_l-450x253.jpg" alt="Bill_Maher_a_l" width="450" height="253" class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-9266" /></a></p> <p><strong>Note added 2/10/2015:</strong> <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/10/the-annals-of-im-not-anti-vaccine-part-13-nobody-wants-to-admit-to-being-antivaccine/">I've posted a followup in response to the skeptics who defend Bill Maher</a>.</p> <p>A couple of weeks ago, I noted the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/19/bill-maher-still-an-antivaccine-wingnut-after-all-these-years/">return of the antivaccine wingnut side of Bill Maher</a>, after a (relative) absence of several years, dating back, most likely, to the thorough spanking he endured for spouting off his antivaccine pseudoscience during the H1N1 pandemic. This well-deserved mockery included Bob Costas taunting him on his own show with a sarcastic, "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/02/24/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant-part-3/">Oh, come on, Superman!</a>" in response to his apparent belief that diet and lifestyle alone would protect him from the flu, as well as Chris Matthews doing the same thing, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/19/bill-maher-still-an-antivaccine-wingnut-after-all-these-years/">likening Bill Maher to a celebrity Scientologist</a> denying psychiatry to his face. Then <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/16/from-one-skeptic-to-the-2009-recipient-o/">Michael Shermer took him on</a>, gently remonstrating with him, which led Maher to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/17/bill-maher-flames-out-over-vaccines/">go full mental jacket trying to defend himself</a>. He was even <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/12/the-2009-recipient-of-the-richard-dawkin/">slapped down by Senator Bill Frist</a> for saying he doesn't believe in vaccines or "Western medicine." Of course, given that I've been <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/12/bill-maher-anti-vax-wingnut.html">covering Maher's antivaccine proclivities</a> for a <a href="http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant_07.html">decade now</a>, I was under no illusion that he had suddenly gone a conversion to science. Rather, I just thought (<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/19/bill-maher-still-an-antivaccine-wingnut-after-all-these-years/">correctly</a>, as it turns out) that he was laying low, licking his wounds. So when he went anti-flu vaccine a couple of weeks ago, I wondered if that was a harbinger of things to come.</p> <p>Then, earlier this week, I saw an editorial by Andrew Kirell, <a href="http://www.mediaite.com/tv/will-bill-maher-address-his-long-history-of-vaccine-skepticism-this-week/">Will Bill Maher Address His Long History of Vaccine Skepticism This Week?</a> Kirell concluded his op-ed asking:</p> <blockquote><p> And that brings us to this week. His Real Time panel includes no doctors, but features two conservative pundits and a journalist — any of whom will likely take the opportunity to prod Maher in light of this week’s news.</p> <p>So will Maher address his history on the matter and say something controversial? It seems unavoidable. </p></blockquote> <p>If the episode two weeks ago was just the <em>hors d'oeuvre</em>, this week's episode of <a href="http://www.hbo.com/real-time-with-bill-maher#/">Real Time With Bill Maher</a> was the main course of full-on antivaccine wingnuttery. Seriously, this might well be the worst Maher's ever been with respect to science, yoking in appeals to ignorance, specious comparisons with anthropogenic global warming, various anti-pharma rants, and, of course, GMO hysteria. Here's <a href="http://youtu.be/B7yvI0tu3Ho">the offending segment</a> (although Maher did mention earlier in the show that he's not "antivaccine" just "anti-flu vaccine"):</p> <div align="center"> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/B7yvI0tu3Ho" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe></div> <!--more--><p>For advocates of science, this is painful to watch, as Maher and his guests rubbish vaccines, "Western" medicine, GMOs, big pharma, Monsanto, and all the usual suspects that cranks and quacks attack. Before I address the specific misinformation and pseudoscience promoted in this episode, let me first note that clearly Maher must have learned something from previous embarrassments. For example, his exploratory rant against this year's flu vaccine (whose efficacy is, unfortunately, less than usual and disappointing) was <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/19/bill-maher-still-an-antivaccine-wingnut-after-all-these-years/">easily countered by Atul Gawande</a>, a real physician and researcher, just as Bill Frist, a real physician, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/12/the-2009-recipient-of-the-richard-dawkin/">countered him before</a>. Heck, even <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/02/24/is-bill-maher-really-that-ignorant-part-3/">Bob Costas</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/10/17/the-2009-recipient-of-the-richard-dawkin-1/">Chris Matthews</a> were able to counter Maher's misinformation. This time around, Maher clearly made sure there was no one who was likely to contradict his quackery-laden views or take him to task for spreading antivaccine pseudoscience on his show.</p> <p>First up, there was Marianne Williamson, who <a href="http://www.marianneforcongress.com">apparently ran for Congress last year</a>. But there's more than that. I had never heard of her before, but apparently she's some sort of <a href="http://marianne.com">author and "spiritual teacher."</a> Her <a href="http://blog.marianne.com/journal/index.php">blog</a> is New-Agey and woo-ey, <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-04-10/marianne-williamson-californias-new-age-contender-for-congress">as is she</a>, as her <a href="https://www.facebook.com/williamsonmarianne/info?tab=page_info">Facebook profile</a> shows:</p> <blockquote><p> Marianne Williamson is an internationally acclaimed spiritual teacher. Her first book, A Return to Love: Reflections on the Principles of A COURSE IN MIRACLES, is considered a must-read of The New Spirituality. A paragraph from that book, beginning "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure" - often misattributed to Nelson Mandela's Inaugural address - is considered an anthem for a contemporary generation of seekers. </p></blockquote> <p>If you don't believe me, then read this interview with her about the "<a href="http://consciouslifenews.com/law-divine-compensation-marianne-williamson-book-excerpt/">Law of Divine Compensation</a>."</p> <p>More tellingly, apparently before her appearance on Maher's show she had been posting links to articles about the Gates Foundation. Or something. Whatever the reason, on February 1 felt the need to <a href="https://www.facebook.com/williamsonmarianne/posts/169170463129485">post this</a>, where she states that she took down several posts, apparently about vaccines, because her fans were trashing her. At least, that's all I could figure out from the comments:</p> <div id="fb-root"></div> <script> <!--//--><![CDATA[// ><!-- (function(d, s, id) { var js, fjs = d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0]; if (d.getElementById(id)) return; js = d.createElement(s); js.id = id; js.src = "//connect.facebook.net/en_US/all.js#xfbml=1"; fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js, fjs); }(document, 'script', 'facebook-jssdk')); //--><!]]> </script><div class="fb-post" data-href="https://www.facebook.com/williamsonmarianne/posts/169170463129485" data-width="600"> <div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/williamsonmarianne/posts/169170463129485">Post</a> by <a href="https://www.facebook.com/williamsonmarianne">Marianne Williamson</a>.</div> </div> <p>Many of the comments after are a veritable hive of antivaccine sentiment, complete with links to articles by antivaccine loons like Gary Null, Sherry Tenpenny, and Mike Adams. If Williamson attracts such an antivaccine crowd, one has to wonder, particularly in light of her performance on Maher's show. Certainly, even if she is not antivaccine, she is too clueless or doesn't care enough to make a defense of vaccination.</p> <p>Another of Maher's guests is <a href="http://www.theblaze.com/author/amy-holmes/">Amy Holmes</a> of <a href="http://www.theblaze.com">The Blaze</a>, which Glenn Beck's TV channel. Obviously, that's a <a href="http://www.mediaite.com/online/glenn-becks-gbtv-names-cnns-amy-holmes-news-anchor-for-the-blaze/">bad sign right there</a>, given Glenn Beck's propensity for conspiracy mongering. I couldn't find any evidence that she's ever voiced antivaccine views before (or, for that matter, anything much at all about vaccines). So we have another reporter, this time working for <a href="http://www.theblaze.com/shows/the-glenn-beck-program/">Glenn Beck</a>. This is not a good indication that she has any scientific background.</p> <p>Finally, there is conservative columnist <a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/author/john-mccormack">John McCormack</a> of the <a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com">Weekly Standard</a>. Contrary to a couple of conservatives who voiced some antivaccine-sympathetic nonsense last week, McCormack is the only one on Maher's panel who showed a modicum of sense, although he was not willing to challenge Maher that strongly, and one of his challenges was a politically motivated misfire expressing anthropogenic global climate change denialism, as you will see. It's basically fighting pseudoscience with pseudoscience, and that doesn't really make a particularly good case.</p> <p>You know things are not going to go well, scientifically speaking, when, right off the bat, Maher introduces the segment by referring to the meeasles outbreak as the "topic that's getting everybody crazy in America" and then saying:</p> <blockquote><p> When I start these conversations, I always have to say: I'm not an antivaxer. I never have been. I'm an anti-flu shot guy I think that's bullshit, and the fact that it was only 23% effective this week bears that out. But if Ebola was airborne, I'd get the vaccine tomorrow. </p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/16/cdc-did-not-admit-flu-vacine-does-not-work/">Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong</a>. Good thing for Maher that Atul Gawande wasn't there to school him about the flu vaccine as <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/01/19/bill-maher-still-an-antivaccine-wingnut-after-all-these-years/">he did last time</a> as Maher deserved to be schooled. Of course, Gawande is too nice to school Maher as he needs to be schooled and Maher would never allow anyone with both the knowledge and the necessary willingness to call Maher out properly to carry out the task on his show. It is, after all, his show. In any case, I've documented more times than I'd care to count that Maher is indeed antivaccine to the core—and pro-quackery to the core. Maher labors under the delusion that he is more rational than everybody else, and his smugness and condescension drip from his very essence, oozing from the television (or computer screen, depending on what you're watching him on).</p> <p>It gets even worse when Maher immediately starts complaining about the "attitude of the media," which he characterized as "just a lot of shut the fuck up." He even compared it to the first weeks of the Iraq war. This lead Williamson to chime in that the implication was that "if you had any skepticism whatsoever, you were antiscience." Of course, Bill Maher is anti-science with respect to vaccines, even though he views himself as totally pro-science. So he lapped this up, particularly when she followed it up with the self-serving Maher-approved observation that there is a "difference between having skepticism about science and having skepticism about the pharmaceutical industry." Truly her stupid did burn brightly. It burns brighter still. Even as she touts that she vaccinated her children, she goes on about how the government has "earned our distrust" and how the "government has suppressed information" and medicine has done the same, she bristles at being called antiscience for being suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry. Her conclusion? She says that the answer is "not to call us kooks" but for the government and pharmaceutical industry to "get their acts together."</p> <p>Of course, this is a tactic taken straight from the playbook of the antivaccine movement, to conflate (disingenuously) reasonable suspicion of the pharmaceutical industry's previous misdeeds with suspicions of vaccines. They are not the same thing, nor is one as reasonable as the other. Whatever misdeeds the pharmaceutical industry might be guilty of, they do not cast doubt on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. There is plenty of independent evidence to support the conclusions that vaccines do not cause autism, they do not cause neurodevelopmental disorders, and they do not cause sudden infant death syndrome, allergic conditions, or any of the other problems frequently ascribed to them by antivaccinationists. No matter how much the government or the pharmaceutical industry "gets its act together" it's never, ever enough for kooks like Marianne Williamson. (I couldn't resist.) Also, the claim that you "can't question" is a favorite cry of the crank.</p> <p><a href="http://youtu.be/l8ukak8P2vY">Help, help, I'm being repressed</a>!</p> <p>Unfortunately, Amy Holmes can't resist adding to the stupid of the whole affair. She characterizes the news coverage as "gotcha politics," in which Governor Chris Christie and Senator Rand Paul are made to look like kooks or "anti-science" (Holmes even does air scare quotes to emphasize the point), a comparison that literally made me do the rare double facepalm upon hearing it and practically shouting at the television. No wonder this woman works for Glenn Beck! She then points out that 48 states allow parents to have religious and/or personal belief exemptions. Yes, that's true, but so what? It's bad policy, and 48 states have bad policy. In any case, she tries to burnish her science bona fides by saying that she "doesn't worship at the church of Jenny McCarthy" as she describes the case of a woman with a child with leukemia, but her overall attitude is that it's "gotcha politics" to have called out Gov. Christie and Sen. Paul for their antivaccine nonsense.</p> <p>It isn't, and it isn't "gotcha politics" to call Sen. Rand Paul antivaccine. <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/03/is-republican-party-becoming-antivaccine-party/">He is</a>.</p> <p>At this point, John McCormack dives in as the seeming voice of reason, which is good. Unfortunately, he couldn't resist making the claim that this is not a Republican problem but more of a "liberal problem." It's not. Antivaccinationism is very at home <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/12/18/why-are-antivaccinationists-so-at-home-with-libertarianism/">among libertarians</a> and <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/16/battling-antivaccinationists-at-freedomfest/">conservatives</a>, and there's no evidence that this is a "liberal problem," the stereotype notwithstanding. As I've said so many times before, antivaccinationism is the quackery and pseudoscience that transcends political boundaries. By trying to paint antivaccine beliefs as more a "liberal" problem, McCormack shows his true agenda. (Hint: It's not to defend science.)</p> <p>If you want more evidence of this, then check out the next exchange. First, Maher makes this ludicrous analogy:</p> <blockquote><p> The analogy that I see all the time is that if you ask any questions, you are the same thing as a global warming denier. I think this is a very bad analogy, because I don’t think all science is alike. I think climate science is rather straightforward because you’re dealing with the earth. It’s a rock. I'm not saying I know how to deal with it, but climate scientists, from the very beginning, have pretty much said the same thing, and their predictions have pretty much come true. It’s atmospherics, and it’s geology, and chemistry. That’s not true of the medical industry. I mean, they’ve had to retract a million things because the human body is infinitely more mysterious. People get cancer, and doctors just don't know why. They just don't know why, and they don't know how to fix it. And they put mercury in my teeth. My father had ulcers and they treated it wrong when I was a kid. Thalidomide. I mean I could go on about how many times they have been wrong. To compare those two science is, I think, just wrong. </p></blockquote> <p>And <a href="http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fucking-magnets-how-do-they-work">magnets, how do they work?</a></p> <p>Seriously. This is nothing more than the "science was wrong before" gambit. Let's just put it this way. Physics has gone through many iterations and has had to "admit" that many of its prior theories were wrong. Does Maher doubt, for instance, the theory of relativity, which supplanted Newtonian physics? His analogy is just so utterly, breathakingly stupid that I did the double double facepalm upon hearing it. In fact, doubting the safety and efficacy of vaccines is <em>very much</em> like climate science denialism. Both are areas of science that are well accepted by the scientific community and backed by enormous quantities of evidence.</p> <p>Here's where McCormack goes off the rails. He mentions that there is an M.I.T. professor, Richard Lindzen, who's a climate skeptic, but there are no such professors that are vaccine skeptics. Of course, being a professor doesn't mean you're not a denialist, and in fact <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2012/03/misrepresentation-from-lindzen/">Lindzen is a denialist</a>. He's also the <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/04/lindzen-in-newsweek/">beneficiary of oil industry money</a>, which is amusing because it led Maher to say the one thing he said in this entire segment that is mostly correct, namely that most climate "skeptics" have ties to industry. McCormack is also just plain wrong that there are no professors who are "vaccine skeptics." For instance, there's Christopher Shaw, who is a Professor of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences at the University of British Columbia whose research specializes in neurodegenerative diseases. He's also an antivaccine crank who thinks aluminum adjuvants in vaccines <a href="http://www.neuroscience.ubc.ca/shaw.htm">cause Alzheimer's disease and autism</a>. He's appeared in the antivaccine propaganda movie <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/18/anti-vaccine-propaganda-lands-in-new-yor/">The Greater Good</a> and has been interjected himself into a sad case of an 18-year-old female who died suddenly, <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/18/anti-vaccine-propaganda-lands-in-new-yor/">trying to blame it on Gardasil</a>. Oh, yes, Mr. McCormack. There are definitely antivaccine professors out there. They are very much like AGW denialist professors in their <em>modus operandi</em>.</p> <p>Maher's next argument is just plain dumb. He decides he's going to liken vaccines to antibiotics and ask, "Can you just do too much of a good thing?" and "Is it limitless? Is there no amount that is too much?" At another point, he seems to imply that scientists were surprised that antibiotic resistance has become so widespread, when in fact it was scientist warning about overuse of antibiotics who foresaw this problem. This leads Williamson to repeat the tired old antivaccine trope of "too many, too soon" in the form of JAQing off. Maher feeds off of that by acknowledging that vaccines don't cause autism and that he "accepts that," but then pivots to the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/24/its-so-cute-when-anti-vaxers-try-to/">classic antivaccine trope</a> that there are no long term studies of vaccinated versus unvaccinated children and "wonders" if people who've had a lot of vaccine have "robust immune systems." He links this to more diagnoses of allergies, autoimmune diseases, and the like, in a classic bit of JAQing off in which he says he isn't claiming that vaccines are responsible for this. He's just asking questions, you know—and confusing correlation with causation.</p> <p>As my good bud <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2015/02/07/bill-maher-is-an-astonishingly-anti-science-anti-vax-crank/">Mark Hoofnagle notes</a>, he even does some serious mental gymnastics in which he goes on about how he thinks that if you don't use your immune system, you'll lose it. The problem, of course, is that vaccines activate the immune system by stimulating it with the same antigens that one finds in the pathogens that cause disease. They wouldn't work if that weren't what they do. So Maher can't even keep a coherent train of thought. On the one hand, supposedly we have all these autoimmune diseases, presumably because vaccines stimulate the immune system too much, but then people who have been vaccinated don't have as "robust an immune system." Which is it Bill? And do you have the slightest clue how stupid about medicine you sound?</p> <p>Obviously not.</p> <p>At this point I can't resist a little dig at Amy Holmes' ignorance about smallpox. She notes that she has had a smallpox vaccine because she's was born out of the country and notes ("thank goodness") that we are "eradicating smallpox." News flash for Ms. Holmes: We are not eradicating smallpox. We eradicated it decades ago, thanks to vaccines. There have been no natural cases since 1977, and the last known case was due to a laboratory accident in 1978. It's <a href="http://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/en/">been 37 years since there's been a recorded case of smallpox</a>, because of vaccines. It gets even worse. Maher makes an incoherent analogy to testosterone supplementation, in which such supplementation "makes your balls shrink." He then analogizes that to vaccines and the immune system, implying that if you use vaccines your immune system thinks it doesn't have to work so hard. Again, does this clown even know how vaccines work?</p> <p>Maher also complains that he's never had a "Western doctor" ask him about his diet. Really? If his anecdote is to be believed, then let me point out my anecdote. Every doctor I've ever had asked me about my diet. I also note that, until the last several years, I was actually pretty thin. Twenty years ago, I was actually skinny. However, as I got into my 40s and hit 50, biology betrayed me (as it is wont to do as one gets older) and, although I'm not fat, I'm no longer thin. Around that time, when I went from being thin to being average to being slightly overweight, lo and behold! My doctor started asking me about diet and lifestyle. </p> <p>This leads to a curious rant about GMOs and an attack on Monsanto, or, as I like to call it, argumentum ad Monsanto. At this point, McCormack argues that GMOs have been a great force for reducing world hunger, which is undoubtedly true. Maher dismisses such arguments with a jaunty, "But I'm not a starving child in Africa. If I were a starving child, then, yes, I'd eat a GMO." McCormack then asks what studies show that GMOs are harmful, which leads Williamson and Maher to become condescendingly dismissive, with "WTF? Are you kidding me?" looks on their faces. Of course, as I've described before, the only studies that have claimed to show dangers from GMOs are studies <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/09/24/bad-science-on-gmos-it-reminds-me-of-the-antivaccine-movement/">done by anti-GMO advocates</a> and studies with <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/06/17/bad-science-about-gmos-it-reminds-me-of-the-antivaccine-movement-revisited/">very poor design</a>. These are the sorts of studies that evidently impress Maher and Williamson, utter crap.</p> <p>Maher believes himself to be the real pro-science advocate. He is about as wrong as wrong can be. He is anti-vaccine, anti-"Western medicine," and in general antiscience, except for a limited number of areas of science that fit in with his ideological biases. As such, he's an object lesson in how one can be intelligent and anti-science at the same time. He's also an object lesson in how being an atheist and being pro-science are related only by coincidence. I had thought that Maher might have been sufficiently chastened by the spanking he received in 2009 and 2010 about his antivaccine stylings. Apparently five years have been enough time for his antivaccine freak flag to fly again.</p> <p>He is no skeptic. He is no pro-science advocate. He's an occasionally funny political comedian with delusions of grandeur with respect to his own rationality.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/oracknows" lang="" about="/oracknows" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">oracknows</a></span> <span>Sun, 02/08/2015 - 19:00</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine-nonsense" hreflang="en">Antivaccine nonsense</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pseudoscience" hreflang="en">Pseudoscience</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery-0" hreflang="en">Quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/skepticismcritical-thinking" hreflang="en">Skepticism/Critical Thinking</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/amy-holmes" hreflang="en">Amy Holmes</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/antivaccine" hreflang="en">antivaccine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/bill-maher" hreflang="en">bill maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/christopher-shaw" hreflang="en">Christopher Shaw</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gmo-0" hreflang="en">GMO</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/john-mccormack" hreflang="en">John McCormack</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/marianne-williamson" hreflang="en">Marianne Williamson</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/monsanto" hreflang="en">monsanto</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/quackery" hreflang="en">quackery</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/real-time-bill-maher" hreflang="en">Real Time With Bill Maher</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/vaccines" hreflang="en">vaccines</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/complementary-and-alternative-medicine" hreflang="en">complementary and alternative medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/medicine" hreflang="en">medicine</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/politics" hreflang="en">Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/television" hreflang="en">television</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/policy" hreflang="en">Policy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284457" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423443841"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're just jealous because you can't even <i>feign</i> a mullet, you beast.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284457&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pPGC00R6EtGQmnIeASu73QHIZBm1YAYQzes0Q291fqs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 08 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284457">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284458" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423448319"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Marianne Williamson ran for the open congressional seat that Henry Waxman had held for ages. She finished 4th out of 19. She ran a fairly effective campaign, in the sense that she spent enough money and had enough acolytes to get 14,000 votes. She made a play for the peace voters and a sort of all-purpose left positioning, that involved distrust of government spying, anti-GMO, and all that. One of her most effective supporters is an outspoken anti-nuclear type who had also run for congress a couple of years earlier and made it into a runoff election. Williamson has a large non-political following, and draws full houses at a big theater over on Wilshire Blvd, where she speaks about new-agey stuff, if I understand correctly. In short, she sounds like the perfect foil for Maher, in that the two of them say a lot of things that most of us can agree with, even though they take weirdly antiscientific positions on other things.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284458&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xf0dXr_N5POY4ZsUtfzYPY1uxaNDXMhovYyXHJUhcD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bob G (not verified)</span> on 08 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284458">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284459" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423455153"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Maher also complains that he’s never had a “Western doctor” ask him about his diet. </i></p> <p>If he needs a doctor to advise him not to eat too much, he's got worse problems than Dunning-Kruger.</p> <p><i>My father had ulcers and they treated it wrong when I was a kid.</i></p> <p>I imagine the doctors asked his father questions about diet. I imagine they gave him holistic advice about avoiding stress, because they had nothing better to offer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284459&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9S5TkY2nspmbpwOIC1VG0kgVxShgJ2CKY8MtTUDNlqw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 08 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284459">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284460" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423457841"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It was only a matter of time really.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284460&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QfY6ymugKpFL80VhGNmO7Nmym9LAtF20uYhb6WoTRXo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">ChrisP (not verified)</span> on 08 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284460">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284461" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423463518"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Somehow I knew ORAC would drop some Insolence on this. A good heavy shot. I found myself calling at the TV "No, Bill, the immune system is not a muscle!"<br /> Yes, I realize Maher's job is to make noise and make people laugh by being the Iconoclast in the room, but this anti-science line of malarkey is too much. I really wish Maher would just go get a couple textbooks on immunology and spend his next 6 weeks break reading them. Of course, he'd likely come up with some half-baked idea that vaccines should be made of natural spring water . . .</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284461&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wCbhOR81XS7mYCgd8vcTSyQCWNCzidnrliyYm8uZwYQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">DLC (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284461">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284462" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423468862"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Finally, there is conservative columnist John McCormack of the Weekly Standard.</i></p> <p>I see what Maher did there. The Weekly Standard is one of the more egregiously nutty right-wing publications, so by implication Maher is making vaccination look like a nutty position. And to some extent McCormack takes the bait, offering up climate denialism to go along with his (correct, for once) pro-vaccine position. It's never a good thing to have somebody from the Weekly Standard playing the voice of reason.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284462&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hmBEGt4CVNyooe5mNOouGLdSn07d4oueLZxl6od-feM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284462">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284463" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423468882"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Bill Maher isn't the only "respectable" source promoting anti-GMO nonsense. Consumer Reports does a full-on nutbar review of the subject in its latest issue, complete with dark references to animal studies which supposedly demonstrate GMO non-safety.</p> <p>It's one reason we are letting our subscription lapse.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284463&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="E2mBGwDvaCfcHpn-Ifm2jNk5i1KkYURN7oNarw6Hv8g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284463">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284464" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423470082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Here's another media promotion of quackery for you:</p> <p>KQED, public radio in the San Francisco Bay Area, recently concluded its yearly fund-raising marathon. One of the prizes they offered for donations was an official Deepak Chopra meditation machine, consisting of a set of LED-equipped goggles and some kind of software on a CDROM that presumably creates the flashing light patterns in the goggles. </p> <p>These things are basically harmless unless you have photosensitive epilepsy, but the problem is the association with Chopra. "I tried this and it was nice" might lead to spending time on Chopra's web page and reading his books, which as we all know can lead to having your brains trickle out your ears. </p> <p>But wait, there's more!</p> <p>KQED also announced that one of its corporate sponsors is a "pharmacy" chain called "Pharmaca." They said this on the air: "Every branch has a certified naturopath and homeopath, and an esthetian." (Did they mean "anesthetician" to soothe away your critical thinking?;-)</p> <p>I have seen one of those places. The name is written in cursive script, illuminated (not merely "lighted," but illuminated, you understand the difference!) from the rear with an approximately violet/purple light. Purple being the favorite color of the New Age movement. I did not venture inside because I was afraid they wouldn't let me out. </p> <p>OTOH, KQED's science programming is good, and they had a bunch of public health and medical people on a few weeks ago who were very good about vaccination and all of that. So at least for now, sponsorship isn't interfering with editorial. Perhaps next year's marathon can include some prizes such as books by noted skeptics? All it takes is for someone to donate the books to the pledge drive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284464&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Pheh6HkKEEtALps9IoNVi12NkJ4egC_3mOkV8BYw39Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Squirrel (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284464">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284465" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423471129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Crossover crankery -- Richard Lindzen also denies the connection between smoking and cancer. He's joined in this by other climate, 'contrarians', like Fred Singer and Pat Michaels, all of whom you can find in the tobacco papers.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284465&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="F1zRZIo6--4-xCuxBFi3WDwur_8Xc6o51wwSj-RbzQ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Robert Grumbine (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284465">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284466" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423471860"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Gray Squirrel</p> <p>You could always call in and tell them that you would have pledged, but that their promotion of pseudoscience convinced you not to.</p> <p>And I think they meant "aesthetician". I.e., someone who specializes in cosmetics and will make you look fabulous.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284466&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Tj6fWkRQkApyXK0aYhxr41cDxvqkfy5ArrWFLDs_qKM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284466">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284467" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423471903"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's all well and good to criticize the unethical practices of pharmaceutical companies (I believe Mark Hoofnagle has a recent piece discussing practices that, if not unethical, are at least best discouraged), or the unethical practices of agri-business such as Monsanto.</p> <p>But those are, fundamentally, not <i>scientific</i> issues. They don't reflect on the science of vaccines or the science of GMOs <i>per se</i> - unless and until you find <i>evidence</i> linking unethical business practices to scientific fraud or malpractice.</p> <p>You know, like what Brian Deer did with Wakefield. Or what <i>scientists and regulators</i> did with Vioxx.</p> <p>Maher's just spouting off more sound and fury that signifies nothing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284467&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pnh3TLIAScPSXzMA5PN_TiTysp-JA76bTnh-pYwnagw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Composer99 (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284467">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284468" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423472179"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>An esthetician is a beautician with training in cosmetology. Of the three options -- homeopath, naturopath, and esthetician -- the esthetician is the only one I'd consider a professional.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284468&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0Z8ioKQGytDXFgDF7I_C_N9qkwQeMkhINQj6UpbQlnU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284468">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284469" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423473127"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What Shay said. And here in CA, there's a license requirement, to boot. My poor eyebrows learned the hard way to only go to licensed aesthecians...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284469&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="szDT3bQeZu2_9EmI1aNVDtHFV6nEL-_h7R1saORH7Ig"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johanna (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284469">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284470" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423475374"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" to conflate (disingenuously) reasonable suspicion of the pharmaceutical industry’s previous misdeeds with suspicions of vaccines. They are not the same thing, nor is one as reasonable as the other." O for zero</p> <p>What kind of logic rant backed you into that pile?<br /> What is also wrong with being anti GMO?</p> <p>You must have a big pram to get all those toys out of!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284470&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jZMQVjDsfkfdGkM2OioQ7IhPnqhrKZDzao5ifAf_12g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284470">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284471" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423475535"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"It’s all well and good to criticize the unethical practices of pharmaceutical companies..........But those are, fundamentally, not scientific issues. They don’t reflect on the science of vaccines or the science of GMOs per se". compost</p> <p>This makes no sense at all, if the companies make the damn product and pay for research that shows they 'work' how on earth is there no association!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284471&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZNrVkafSsjpPSWrknbTkXeDmkTJXPgokBIRWWNwxbRU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284471">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284472" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423475750"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" Perhaps next year’s marathon can include some prizes such as books by noted skeptics? All it takes is for someone to donate the books to the pledge drive." squizzle shit</p> <p>God help us no......... please.....................make sure there is a little hole in the corner so we can hang them up and make them useful</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284472&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0fxphiBOOaxC9pYeikPQCpEaTd-Asejn3B6u_eaIKvc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284472">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284473" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423475761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm just stoked to see Orac drop a "Miracles" reference. Woop woop!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284473&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="U_ZsyUXNFJN8Y1ZTLoOjEk-COsAY_2sWBsEuNA2SxK4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadasd (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284473">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284474" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423476216"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>an official Deepak Chopra meditation machine</i></p> <p>I really shouldn't be surprised that there is such a thing. Strictly as a marketing exercise, it makes sense for Chopra to sell or license this. And KQED, knowing their audience (a substantial fraction of which live in Marin County, that notorious hotbed of woo), markets to them. They need donations from sufficiently affluent listeners, and you have to be quite affluent to live in Marin County[1].</p> <p><i>Did they mean “anesthetician” to soothe away your critical thinking?;-)</i></p> <p>Well, they need to give you a little something so that you won't feel the pain of the walletectomy.</p> <p>[1]Or just about anywhere else in the Bay Area, these days. I know people--well-off professional couples, even--who have fled the Bay Area because the cost of living there has gotten so outrageous. Houses like mine, worth about $300k in not-exactly-cheap New Hampshire, would be worth well into seven figures in many Bay Area municipalities--and in Palo Alto, those seven figures wouldn't start with a 1.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284474&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HiDfHD3uZtVeC65-l_2Xy-TETqbam6XEDQJjfsvAcLU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eric Lund (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284474">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284475" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423476785"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@pop socket</p> <p>What is also wrong with being anti GMO?</p> <p>One, there is no reason to be. All the REAL scientific studies have shown that the technology poses little or no risk to human health. Only the crank "studies" have ever shown evidence of harm.</p> <p>Two, this technology has immense potential to benefit human society. By genetically engineering crops, we can introduce disease resistance, insect resistance, extra hardiness, and increased yield. Combined with conventional breeding techniques, which, unlike some anti GMO advocates would claim, is not going to be replaced by GMO, but enhanced by it. We should use every successful technology we've got to accomplish enhancement of our staple crops (and non staple crops too, eventually), and it would be a shame to shun one very useful technology on nothing but the basis of ideology.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284475&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4PA0V_CLo66ylpbxmIMqRhnRnNyI4WJ-ihAt0YHQKHc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Alexis Lovel (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284475">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284476" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423477147"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As to the idea that anti-vaccination views aren't a "liberal problem", I would argue that they're more bi-partisan than anything. Plenty of Dems have played footsie with the anti-vaxers in the past, including both major candidates in 2008. Folks like Keith Olbermann made unchallenged claims about the reporting surrounding Andrew Wakefield because he didn't like the source. Plenty of states that have loose personal exemptions for vaccines are liberal.</p> <p>Democrats are playing the role of the "pro-science, pro-vaccine" party now, because it suits their political agenda and Paul and Christie stepped in it. But don't be shocked if at some point in the next few years (if not sooner) a prominent Dem says something stupid and the Republicans suddenly become the party of protecting kids.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284476&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7Xhdhe_mE7sooXByrHkhMx-JACmN3HUj0Kh8xIeWGbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">a-non (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284476">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284477" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423478762"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I blogged about the pandering at the time.</p> <p>It's also not the same, at least not the same as Rand Paul's idiocy. Of course, the fact that Dems sometimes used to pander to antivaxers 7 years ago doesn't make Republicans look good. The Dems appear to have evolved in the right direction, no longer pandering to antivaxers, while Republicans appear right now to be going in the opposite direction. Meanwhile, in Congress, the staunchest antivaxers have been mostly Republican (e.g., Dan Burton).</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/22/hillary-clinton-and-barack-obama-descend/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/22/hillary-clinton-and-barack…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284477&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6amaFXnPTybnrrUekz54Kv2HT90ffX8seuf1PK_IEBc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284477">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284478" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423479974"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>pop socket #16:</p> <p><i>What is also wrong with being anti GMO(sic)?</i></p> <p>Nothing, as long as your basis for your stance is scientific. Show me a solid, scientific position--heck, even a tentative-but-still-plausible position--that is against genetically modified organisms, and we can have a reasonable discussion. </p> <p>The problem with most (sincere) anti-GMOers is that their opposition isn't to the techniques or science of GMO. They oppose GMO for political, ethical, and socioeconomic reasons (read: Monsanto), dressed up as unassailable scientific logic. Those concerns are valid, but call them what they are. Do not spin it as a scientific controversy where in fact none exists.</p> <p>Alternatively, their opposition consists of ranting on about a process they don't even pretend to try to understand, which is nothing more than setting afire a straw man of their own creation.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284478&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fkt23FJT5qJP5nhBFSDb9E6jN-7gU96lwOdW4wti9BU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shadowflash (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284478">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284479" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423481135"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"This makes no sense at all, if the companies make the damn product and pay for research that shows they ‘work’ how on earth is there no association!"</p> <p>Are you of the conspiracy idea that all research, 100%, every last scientist, every last institution, every single government only does the research that is bought and paid for by companies.</p> <p>Other people do research. The who bought and paid for it is understood and controlled for (required reporting of conflicts of interest, etc).</p> <p>That a product in and of itself is scientifically sound is separate from is the marketing ethical, are they doing something illegal with it.</p> <p>If everything sold for profit is inherently unethical then that applies to all organic food and dietary supplements not just things you happen to disagree with.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284479&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dnFnS2rEyYmqJWqQt7I0YNy6n9odYIYHNrlK79rQZK8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">KayMarie (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284479">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284480" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423481223"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh great ( and non-existent) lord almighty! I utterly despise Marianne Williamson. For many years. For so many reasons:</p> <p>-She appeals to distraught women primarily and offers up simplistic, 'spiritual' advice and platitudes as guidance to those who might be better served by counselling or a friend's advice.. She takes advantage of THEM as well as taking their money.<br /> - She makes a great deal of money through her books and lectures<br /> - She is as smug and self-aggrandising as any woo-meister Orac routinely eviscerates<br /> -She criticises medicine and the government as corrupt and wasteful whilst spouting pabulum...<br /> - Her education and training is basically nothing. Not a counsellor, not a teacher, not medical ( see Wikip)<br /> - She sets herself up as an authority when what she teaches is within the general experience of her audience, who could do the same .<br /> Oh there's much more but I have work to do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284480&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RpNqRWnZRvbEgtFfqcD0iQreDw553nfiZx_Ff0XXCeM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284480">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284481" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423481352"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ KayMarie:</p> <p>And woo-meisters never mention their own COIs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284481&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yKMv4mSUSVUzfC2biKKwwfQzNn-jRXWVvs_FBnlTnrc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284481">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284482" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423482155"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Libertarians are like Republicans in that they believe that a more stable and productive social order is somehow created by the tug-of-war of unqualified self-interest instead of enlightened self-interest. But they don't want to believe all the things Republicans believe, especially their religious hypocrisy. And generally they think they know better than science, but pretend they're all about science. Someone who's willing to ignore the math and then claim that their personal choices outweigh all attempts to benefit all of us is a candidate for the Darwin award, and willing to take a lot of other people with them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284482&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="K6Y2BNqeCuO-tFkDCqb4QB6hzAVBw2I4bBewhYoZxR4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">blair (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284482">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284483" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423485469"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Those acting like this isn't an overwhelmingly liberal problem are clearly biased and fooling themselves. The two worst states for vaccinations are OR and VT, clearly strongholds of "new-age" liberalism, the type that pedals this same anti-gmo nonsense that you almost never hear from conservatives. Not to mention the fact west-LA schools in Malibu and Santa Monica now have vaccination rates as low as the Sudan:<br /><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la-schools-vaccination-rates-are-as-low-as-south-sudans/380252/">http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la-schools-va…</a></p> <p>Also, enough with the conservatives don't believe in global warming, most do believe it's happening, they just believe it to be incredibly stupid to add regulations that will ship jobs to China, India and other 3rd world countries that harm the economy while also making the problem worse (CLEARLY less environmental regulation in China, India etc).</p> <p>Reminds me a lot of the liberals opposing the Keystone pipeline. Every year it isn't built simply means the oil gets shipped by rail instead which indisputably has a much higher carbon footprint than the pipeline. Brilliant!</p> <p>Need more proof this is an overwhelmingly liberal problem? Do you think of conservatives whey you hear "communities with the Prius driving, composting, organic food-eating people. "</p> <p><a href="http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/01/why-prius-driving-composting-set-fears-vaccines?ref=hp">http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/01/why-prius-driving-composting-set-fea…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284483&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tuxffmyGURLngVexxtwLmAfvMtHxPeYB1i__a7zo5MI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike K (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284483">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284485" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423485934"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So what? I can point out that in my state, most of the areas with very low vaccine uptake are in very conservative, Republican-leaning areas.</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/11/who-knew-my-states-vaccine-personal-belief-exemption-rate-stinks/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/11/who-knew-my-states-vaccine…</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/12/who-knew-my-states-vaccine-personal-belief-exemption-rate-stinks-part-2-what-to-do/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/12/who-knew-my-states-vaccine…</a></p> <p>Does that mean antivaccine views are primarily a conservative problem? No, not really. It does, however, mean that there is a group of conservative very much swayed by antivaccine messages. Contrary to the stereotype, antivax is not a "liberal" problem.</p> <p>Also, I note that Orange County, a hotbed of this particular outbreak (Disneyland is in Orange County) is not known as a bastion of liberal politics. Quite the opposite!</p> <p>As I've said before, antivaccine pseudoscience is a pseudoscience that truly transcends political boundaries. Libertarians especially like it:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/12/18/why-are-antivaccinationists-so-at-home-with-libertarianism/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/12/18/why-are-antivaccinationist…</a></p> <p>As do a significant group of conservatives:</p> <p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/16/battling-antivaccinationists-at-freedomfest/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/16/battling-antivaccinationis…</a><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/19/battling-antivaccinationists-at-freedomfest-part-2-dr-whitaker-responds/">http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/19/battling-antivaccinationis…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284485&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VE47YereWvFisdL8_q0VwsSjAKzEHsdMDI4Hb6IhoKU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284485">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1284483#comment-1284483" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike K (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284484" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423485868"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" this technology has immense potential to benefit human society. By genetically engineering crops, we can introduce disease resistance, insect resistance, extra hardiness, and increased yield. Combined with conventional breeding techniques, which, unlike some anti GMO advocates would claim, is not going to be replaced by GMO, but enhanced by it" alexis</p> <p>Do you work in this industry? Well Monsanto got nowhere in Europe, in the US it just got blanket bombed and there is no choice. So what are the 'crank' studies you are referring to? I just don't trust GM scientists. I mean 'analog' attempts at nature fiddling like introducing that worm to get rid of prickly pear in Australia followed by the worms turning to crops as a disaster when they ran out of cactus. Then the cane toad got imported to eat the worms and now there are plagues of inedible frogs that pile up on the highway. What exact benefits to people is GM. I think patenting terminator gene crops is one reason to avoid. Another is farmers in the US can't collect seed and do next years crop, Monsanto mafia prosecute this basic right, it is scary having a corporation control food growth too.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284484&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h6oogNOuOiIdZ4KGFH35DVE0ImF0P1QgHxYPoIyZY2Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284484">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284486" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423485991"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Scientist are not good at understanding symbiosis, they are too focused on a result to think wider. It is not an insult, it's their training, too narrow. Nature is far better at natural selection and has a lot of evidence to prove it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284486&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JS73TOLkqR35fjNiLQ0aJGZBUpSXYySXaEoK6y_kyas"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284486">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284487" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486139"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If you're too lazy to click on the links to my discussions of two of those crank studies (they're right there in the text where I talk about this), I can't help you. I'm not going to spoon feed you the information in the comments if you can't be bothered to click the links. That's what they're there for.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284487&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QDlD3EVpt4ISx43dNzYf6W98mwEj_du89Vb_NgFL3jw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a rel="nofollow" href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence" lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Orac (not verified)</a> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284487">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284488" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486328"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"As I’ve said before, antivaccine pseudoscience is a pseudoscience that truly transcends political boundaries. Libertarians especially like it:" ORAC<br /> It isn't that simple, people just don't trust the likes of Paul Ofit, the CDC and the FDA enough to believe their research. They are too like bankers and war mongers, they self serve interest and you harping on about everyone who doesn't get with the vaccine programme is a nutter, doesn't help either.</p> <p>Why on earth should we trust people who took us to war and destabilized the security of the world by bombing for self interest. It isn't a conspiracy - it's what is happening.</p> <p>Bill isn't a crank for saying you don't get ill by staying well, if you understood what that meant perhaps you would understand that the alt view isn't 'safe vaccination' it is not getting ill. It is a medical concept that disease and pathology is some kind of isolated bad luck. It is a shame you are so busy dissing people that there is no time for you to really learn much about health.</p> <p>I really feel sorry for you and your position.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284488&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jqJarm_9FqjZmD8D4lEVl6o5gtnpBergi2_si8PGhok"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284488">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284489" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486504"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>but ORAC it is the whole process of 'evidence' that is in disrepute. What on earth has got you to the point where you believe that the CDC FDA etc. are worth anything more than a political opinion? Where is your evidence that these orgs produce anything more than PR?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284489&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rwAcaUubncSWV9qgJcWJ37pse5HKbouV9FYgj2iGuAM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284489">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284490" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486571"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Those acting like this isn’t an overwhelmingly liberal problem are clearly biased and fooling themselves. The two worst states for vaccinations are OR and VT</p></blockquote> <p><a>Try again</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284490&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Dp-WOJpkgZpXML_bCUzGpo9vcti3wgH3hTOc5ksHM4M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284490">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284491" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486804"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks, Orac.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284491&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pqWUsddzts_NRPgWg9yFzQwdZg6jPNv7po0ReP-Jr0c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Aaron Mic Hatch (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284491">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284492" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486860"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Just clicked on two of those links and you mention a vitamin study that you haven't got and the rest is pile of polemic about antivaxxers.</p> <p>I not interested in that, what are the crank studies that diss GMO? What is wrong in not trusting doctors and scientists to decide what is best for my health?</p> <p>Are you really sitting there moderating 24 7? how can you do that when the subject is so banal?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284492&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RjqJ99x0-wPGUH8jx_rcSpBY-V9kwK3LjXV5F8-4KsQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284492">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284493" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486904"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>At least Bill has the guts to say what he thinks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284493&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="97rFUomn-bpFUDFFjZhrxLwPbiKGlb2UqrwMZHyR6XI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284493">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284494" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423486938"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Related... The Anti-vax crowd is harping lately about supposed criminal fraud activities by Merck with their mumps vaccine - Falsifying phase testing data. They've made the statement that FDA REQUIRES 95% efficacy of vaccines and Merck falsified data to support 95% efficacy. I am not aware of this 95% requirement - Is there any veracity in it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284494&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_nCNRQUu2wtVBxWtqQDDipYY5IqeT37AVUmuos9-2nw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">RobRN (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284494">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284495" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423487070"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@pop socket #34</p> <p>Do you have a particular set of credentials that make you more knowledgeable about health than the proprietor of this blog, who happens to be a doctor? If so, provide said credentials along with documented evidence of your positions. </p> <p>@Orac #30<br /> @Mike K #29</p> <p>This is why I go with the "anti-vaccine views tend to be bi-partisan" rather than pointing the finger at a particular policy. While there are folks like Rand Paul on the Republican side who have clear anti-vaccine views, I can point to Vermont governor Peter Shumlin - a Democrat - who says he wants to maintain his state's philosophical exemption for vaccines even though his state has one of the highest rates in the country of using that exemption. </p> <p>Now are Dems overall better on the issue? I think so - especially in recent months - but I also wouldn't be surprised if some of this push (if not most) is political since the popular wisdom is that Republicans are bad on vaccine policy. </p> <p>I'm not complaining, mind you, because philosophical exemptions are a major part of the reason we're seeing outbreaks of VPD's when we shouldn't be.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284495&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2geIBn1SvV443p_S37-HQvxHRhw-0I05LiA6u5mWoIc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">a-non (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284495">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284496" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423487424"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>introducing that worm to get rid of prickly pear in Australia followed by the worms turning to crops as a disaster when they ran out of cactus. Then the cane toad got imported to eat the worms</i></p> <p>Add "Australian ecology" to the list of Philip Hills' topics of specialised ignorance.<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cactoblastis_cactorum#Introduction_of_Cactoblastis_cactorum_as_a_biological_control_agent">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cactoblastis_cactorum#Introduction_of_Cact…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284496&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WusfHYbMNDOnzXFLA4luoypKPXqM9qXgMSlnT_b7_qo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284496">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284497" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423487587"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>and his smugness and condescension drip from his very essence, oozing from the television (or computer screen, depending on what you’re watching him on).</p></blockquote> <p>I will watch him on a piece of toast*.</p> <p>Yes, a piece of toast, because it'd take a feckin' miracle for me to waste any more time on Bill Maher.</p> <p>* I imagine the dripping smugness will taste quite buttery.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284497&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LBtUijo1AHlVGk0qy9YhRzfIDJm1zB0SkQI2v9bYTXU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rich Woods (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284497">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284498" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423487725"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Do you have a particular set of credentials that make you more knowledgeable about health than the proprietor of this blog, who happens to be a doctor?</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, <a href="https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/philip-janice-lara-hills/26/b88/271">of course</a>. Plus, he has "<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/04/22/an-antivaccine-thinker-calls-for-a-boycott/#comment-326636">two degrees</a>."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284498&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JkVnwGuK6-Y3ecy0aC5hFyEXiKHHv5o2X4F4Ioo4nv8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284498">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284499" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423488368"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow that map of Michigan is hilarious Orac. I assume that was a joke? Or do you regularly run into people who don't understand %? Southeast Michigan has 100 times more people and that map proves my point. Way more liberals in southern MI unvaccinated than in the unpopulated UP. Where you can guarantee home schooling is 1000 more prevalent and 20 unvaccinated kids would give it a high % because almost nobody lives there. </p> <p>The facts clearly say that the lowest vaccinated states are liberal ones. You can pull out Orange County being conservative all you want, hilariously though Malibu, Santa Monica and San Fran have 3 lowest rates in California BY FAR AND IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE (none are in the OC btw). I would argue the point more but it's clear you are too biased to admit what is obvious to everyone. Sorry the actual truth doesn't fit your political ideology. Can't wait to hear your next hilarious argument that SF, Oregon and Vermont are conservative and that Mississippi, the state with the highest vac rate in the country is liberal.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284499&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AAIvxwUguAJEh2eOSW3q7vkFvhbHO1QosrpqCnVfhSI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mike K (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284499">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284500" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423488454"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Oh, of course. Plus, he has “two degrees.”</i></p> <p>I'm sure he wouldn't lie about being a <a href="https://paedspoliticsbiscuits.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/what-magazines-dont-tell-you/comment-page-1/#comment-52">Paediatrician</a> and a <a href="https://josephinejones.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/have-whsmith-even-read-my-wddty-emails/comment-page-1/#comment-3301">Consultant</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284500&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MBqzu26_3Sei1e9C38w9WI4hHhy3kASt4CB3nN-cXZs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284500">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284501" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423488738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>but ORAC it is the whole process of ‘evidence’ that is in disrepute. </p></blockquote> <p>What, pray tell, do you think is a honest and reliable source of information in this world?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284501&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZypIDSG2j-pyVRp-PpFWZCh57ovUVt7fR8E8bDyg4i0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gaist (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284501">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284502" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423489008"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The facts clearly say that the lowest vaccinated states are liberal ones.</p></blockquote> <p>Ah, I see that I botched the <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm#Tab1">MMWR link</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284502&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CJhs8QpSHq_jouVBeK3uUXV0TNl5vG-6EF20NGEBV-E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284502">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284503" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423489078"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" ... but ORAC it is the whole process of ‘evidence’ that is in disrepute. What on earth has got you to the point where you believe that the CDC FDA etc. are worth anything more than a political opinion? Where is your evidence that these orgs produce anything more than PR? ..."</p> <p>(Seriously running for cover.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284503&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jMpVoXx3xRLnUtjumy2fmADdg-ycT4AXWbGuj1_eook"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SelenaWolf (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284503">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284504" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423489188"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>pop socket #31, 34, 38, etc.</p> <p>In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "Let me explain. No, wait, there's too much. Let me sum up."</p> <p><i>I just don’t trust GM scientists...people just don’t trust the likes of Paul Ofit, the CDC and the FDA...What is wrong in not trusting doctors and scientists to decide what is best for my health</i></p> <p>So, you've declared yourself utterly unconvince-able. You don't trust me, you don't trust doctors, you don't trust the government, you probably don't even trust the floor beneath your shoes. </p> <p>Now what?</p> <p>Why are you here, on this board, antagonizing these people? You go on and on about logic, reason, and proof, then retreat behind your keyboard to lob ad hominem mortars across the trenches of Dunning-Kruger effect. What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284504&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JLhXAV5nQvOMi3-An2weULIUIeWEwf_REDwXlZEeH4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shadowflash (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284504">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284505" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423489274"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>With respect to the "use it or lose it" mentality of the immune system: Maher's problem is that the only readily available anatomical analogy he has is muscles. "Exercise or lose muscle tone" is easy to understand and makes intuitive sense. Plus, we've had it drilled into our heads that there is no shortcut, no magical, miracle way to develop muscles without actually putting in the work. We are rightfully told to be highly suspicious of late-night infomercials that promise "ripped abs with just 15 minutes of exercise a week!"</p> <p>That's all fine and good, except when people think that all anatomical systems have to work that way, because they don't understand the others. That's where Maher is going off the rails. He thinks of "overstimulation" of the immune system as an analogy to overworked, aching muscles that can't respond like normal, because that is something that virtually all of have experienced firsthand. He views vaccines as the same as the mythical shortcuts to super-abs that we all know are bogus. And since regular exercise makes any physical task easier, he thinks that "being healthy" by eating a good diet etc. means that you will stay healthy.</p> <p>It is all analogies with the parts of the body that he has firsthand experience with. That's fine as a shortcut, until you know better.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284505&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ie1bsOGKTy3vLD-ObGrECnvl7ThC8ilYlXyiXUJkBCc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Welch (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284505">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284506" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423491904"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I've never understood this idea that your immune system only gets going when you're sick. If you want to see what happens when you have no immune system, look at roadkill - it begins succumbing to attacks both large and small within minutes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284506&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oMUi8iG66nMTGXPPGexB4we2qohMjk00jY0Lzmh6voM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doris Walker (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284506">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284507" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423491981"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is the second time recently I've seen an anti-vax person try to equate antibiotic resistance with the fantasy that vaccines are "over used". Aside from the fact that it clearly outlines just how little they understand about how either of those two things works, it's a line of argument that is of concern to me. It's yet another example of taking a real problem that has clear scientific support (anti-biotic resistance) and drawing a fake and confusing comparison to something that is not supported by science (too many vaccines too soon). This kind of argument allows these cranks to overwhelm readers with lots of legitimate links to supported science (about the consequences of over use of antibiotics) while burying the real flaw in their argument. </p> <p>It's also the kind of argument that takes a long time to dispel since you have to now explain both how vaccines work as well as how antibiotics work.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284507&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8-yfOzptP44E3SwRNdSEzw_V3aVPXVCsAGqdhv1WXnk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lumen (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284507">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284508" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423492295"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>It is all analogies with the parts of the body that he has firsthand experience with.</i></p> <p>It could have been worse, then.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284508&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vD42BPyIdUQegoSb53Q-6uIcbUOcRB0p3tvfEdVLVlM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284508">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284509" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423493115"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>According to this article in Slate , the pharmaceutical companies are routinely generating questionable and outright falsified data and the FDA, when aware of such malfeasance, their response basically aids the pharmaceutical companies in covering it up. The FDA does not relabel drugs appropriately when the data is found to be lacking nor does it make any effort to get scientific literature that cites the results corrected which means the unreliable data remains to mislead researchers in the future. </p> <p><a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/02/fda_inspections_fraud_fabrication_and_scientific_misconduct_are_hidden_from.html">http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/02/fda_in…</a></p> <p>I think such stories have a major negative impact on the public's willingess to trust what their doctors and government health officials tell them, whether about drugs, vaccines or any other medical treatment. </p> <p>When you comment<br /></p><blockquote>Of course, this is a tactic taken straight from the playbook of the antivaccine movement, to conflate (disingenuously) reasonable suspicion of the pharmaceutical industry’s previous misdeeds with suspicions of vaccines. They are not the same thing, nor is one as reasonable as the other. Whatever misdeeds the pharmaceutical industry might be guilty of, they do not cast doubt on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. </blockquote> <p>I do not think it is reasonable to assume that just because something is a typical tactic of the anti-vaccine movement means you can dismiss as therefore ridiculous. This is, unfortunately, valid point for their 'side' of the argument. </p> <p>Maybe such stories shouldn't cast doubt on vaccines, but they do. Most people do not research the actual scientific studies that have been done on vaccines before making their decision. Even those that do are unlikely to try and discern which studies are legitimate and well done and which were not. </p> <p>Most parents making the decision about vaccinations either they choose rely on the advice of the experts or they reject the advice of the experts because they don't feel they can trust them. This pervasive lack of trust in our medical authorities, primarily caused by a history that seems to justify such mistrust, is IMO a far more serious problem than that some parents choose not to get their kids vaccinated. </p> <p>I think Ms. Williamson is right when she comments at the beginning of the clip about the difference between skepticism about science and skepticism about the vaccine industry.<br /></p><blockquote>The government and the pharmaceuticals have earned our distrust...The answer...is for them [government and pharmaceuticals] to get their act together so that they are more trustworthy again.</blockquote> <p>Personally, I think this is the major reason that parents become 'vaccine hesitant' in large enough numbers to impact herd immunity. If they felt they could trust the medical establishment (i.e. their doctor, the CDC, etc.), then I don't think the anti-vaxxers would have made significant inroads in convincing people not to vaccinate their children.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284509&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="flgBG7bDMU1Up_iBTkfxeHgcDQCp7ddhZqz2n0Jieic"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284509">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284510" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423493316"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Funny how the misbehavior of pharmaceutical companies always seems to generate doubt about the value of <em>medicine</em> and never about the value of <em>capitalism</em>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284510&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oI0p3WzuHfiIDTsacq8gst1WCZSdLWr2T-2la7uTRPM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">A. Noyd (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284510">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284511" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423493704"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I dont agree with Bill on everything but I refuse to get a flu shot. The last time I got one, I became very ill. In the years since I got that one flu shot, I rarely ever get sick. I eat healthy, exercise everyday and just take care of myself. The flu shot is not for me. There is no reason to lump Bill in the antivaxer group just because he (like me) does not agree with taking the flu shot. If the flu shot was so great and necessary, why is it not mandatory? IF it were, then the conversation would be different.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284511&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2hWeCadPUcwqEx5sF4VIyxQlqp-Q2L7IqLjC4tKFJbM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">SP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284511">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284512" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423493834"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I just posted this on the Skeptical Inquirer FB page post linking to this article. The comments are teeming with Maher apologists. </p> <p>It's amazing to me that so many people are going to bat for this guy, and that the #1 argument out of the gate is that he says he's not antivax. And, since he's said so many pleasingly irreverent and insulting things about religion, we should ignore his longstanding anti-science stance and take him at his word on this? You know who else claimed she wasn't antivax? Jenny frigging McCarthy. </p> <p>If you say "I'm not antivax, but..." and then wax expansive about your ignorant misunderstandings of the immune system and 'toxins' and the evils of Big Pharma, it doesn't much matter whether you officially self-identify as 'antivax', because you are functionally indistinguishable from those who do.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284512&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PDTk4LX8DGC-OpD-biwRXdOmtjXsrpqbdo03qD1K4Cs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284512">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284513" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423494702"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP - assuming your illness was in fact related to your flu shot, I wouldn't recommend you get one either. You should really follow up on that because it might be useful data some day.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284513&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jok8usjPMwYHi9WbipJSfccM2PquqrAGxvImNIo7woQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284513">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284514" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423497744"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" I think patenting terminator gene crops is one reason to avoid. Another is farmers in the US can’t collect seed and do next years crop, Monsanto mafia prosecute this basic right"</p> <p>That's one heapin' helpin' of misconception and falsehood in just three sentences.</p> <p>1) There are no "terminator gene crops". No such crop ever was marketed.<br /> 2) Farmers in the U.S. certainly can collect seed from their crops, as long as they don't sign agreements with a company foregoing that right in exchange for a product they feel offers them a competitive advantage. There are a ton of open-pollinated crops and non-GMO hybrids from which one can save seed.<br /> 3) I have never seen a case where Monsanto or any other company prosecuted a farmer for inadvertently saving patented GM seeds. There are well-publicized cases (i.e. Monsanto Canada v. Schmeiser) where farmers deliberately collected GM seed in an attempt to evade patent protections, got sued, and lost. They are not innocent victims of the System.</p> <p>Try researching this subject before making false claims. biofortified.com and the Genetic Literacy Project are a good place to start.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284514&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Xuh6yw16UNQmizVhUF0NKWO5aIcOMp6B4tBoR6-yyRE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284514">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284515" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423497961"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Beth said: "I think Ms. Williamson is right when she comments at the beginning of the clip about the difference between skepticism about science and skepticism about the vaccine industry.<br /> The government and the pharmaceuticals have earned our distrust…The answer…is for them [government and pharmaceuticals] to get their act together so that they are more trustworthy again.<br /> Personally, I think this is the major reason that parents become ‘vaccine hesitant’ in large enough numbers to impact herd immunity. If they felt they could trust the medical establishment (i.e. their doctor, the CDC, etc.), then I don’t think the anti-vaxxers would have made significant inroads in convincing people not to vaccinate their children."</p> <p>Sorry, I really don't get the distinction between 'skepticism about science v. skepticism about the industry'--or maybe I just don't understand it. If you think the science behind vaccination is sound, but opt out of the vaccine due to distrust the industries who (so goes the claim) did the studies, aren't you expressing skepticism about the validity of their science after all? Or are you/Ms. Williamson suggesting that people are willing to forgo a scientifically valid treatment just to make a point about the source?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284515&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i5x5haX_O0CRuc5ojhXXasDRdfHDI0YIQO8qYbwLcjQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284515">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284516" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423498320"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"I think such stories have a major negative impact on the public’s willingess to trust what their doctors and government health officials tell them, whether about drugs, vaccines or any other medical treatment."</p> <p>Don't stop there - there's no part of science that can be relied upon, because one can point to instances of malfeasance in drug development. It's all interconnected!!!<br /> Don't pay any attention to advances in health and longevity, you can't trust Them. All those vaccine-preventable diseases that got eliminated or vastly reduced in incidence don't matter because Merck or somebody fudged data on a heart drug.</p> <p>Impeccable logic. By the same token we can simply damn all herbal remedies and every type of alternative medicine as completely useless because supplement companies have been found to sell adulterated and contaminated products. I'm sure Bill Maher and his guests would agree.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284516&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Eov-PJBbCmX5OgnPj1bYyAs6P89Jog3gsV50CddeKgE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284516">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284517" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423498369"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ A. Noyd</p> <p>Fucking exactly. Normalcy bias all the live-long day.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284517&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-3fbsE4Zl1WqxYPQ2Mo53QwKknNNSrt8wSqsnWmiJiU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Arren (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284517">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284518" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423500365"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jen,</p> <blockquote><p> I really don’t get the distinction between ‘skepticism about science v. skepticism about the industry’–or maybe I just don’t understand it. If you think the science behind vaccination is sound, but opt out of the vaccine due to distrust the industries who (so goes the claim) did the studies, aren’t you expressing skepticism about the validity of their science after all? </p></blockquote> <p>Expressing skepticism about the validity of pharmaceutical company studies is not necessarily skepticism of science generally or even skepticism about the science of vaccination. It's skepticism that the study was done properly and the reported results are accurate and unbiased, rather than having been manipulated or even outright falsified as reported in the article I linked to in my previous post. </p> <blockquote><p> Or are you/Ms. Williamson suggesting that people are willing to forgo a scientifically valid treatment just to make a point about the source?</p></blockquote> <p> No. In fact, you might notice that at 7:20 she says the facts are in about the measles vaccine and that we need to get our kids vacccinated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284518&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CcqDxktHEqqb-mM5Wix8_R2j7dCwLAoXY44z_PRU8nE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284518">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284519" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423502876"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>According to this article in Slate , the pharmaceutical companies are routinely generating questionable and outright falsified data and the FDA, when aware of such malfeasance, their response basically aids the pharmaceutical companies in covering it up. </i></p> <p>Retraction Watch links to the more scholarly accompanying article in JAMA Internal Medicine:<br /><a href="http://retractionwatch.com/2015/02/09/fda-repeatedly-hidden-evidence-scientific-fraud-says-author-new-study/">http://retractionwatch.com/2015/02/09/fda-repeatedly-hidden-evidence-sc…</a></p> <p>What are the FDA's powers in this regard? If they wanted to take punitive action against drugs companies to discourage fraudulent studies, what can they do?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284519&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1pJKfp12FVK-ZBExsVZNb4cQ8zG2QXznLbeTURJTTmk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284519">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284520" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423504977"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Narad @48 I suppose for "two worst" he could have been looking at % of non-medical exemptions in the second chart, in which case one notes that Vermont is tied with that noted hotbed of liberalism, Idaho.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284520&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o3LjVgU5wgI8DDFnQim6G8cmzK6nlFWlGha3wbulEZo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284520">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284521" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423505599"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Beth: "Expressing skepticism about the validity of pharmaceutical company studies is not necessarily skepticism of science generally or even skepticism about the science of vaccination."</p> <p>Please go through this list of studies: <a href="http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/faq/vaccinestudies.pdf">Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence</a></p> <p>Now tell us which ones are "pharmaceutical company studies" by directly quoting the relevant portions of the studies or author affiliations. (note the first study is free online, just not at the supplied link, but it is easy enough to find through PubMed) Thank you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284521&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eFWXspDLp0B-9ikH5tUN593kLnY8AbOwf2pHspwfSJs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284521">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284522" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423507116"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Beth:</p> <blockquote><p>Expressing skepticism about the validity of pharmaceutical company studies is not necessarily skepticism of science generally or even skepticism about the science of vaccination. It’s skepticism that the study was done properly and the reported results are accurate and unbiased</p></blockquote> <p>Let me be clearer, then. I am not talking about "science generally" nor the general concept of immunology (i.e. the science of vaccination). I am specifically talking about the science validating the current, clinically available vaccines . </p> <p>As such, if someone is skeptical that a study *reporting the safety and/or efficacy of those vaccines* was done properly and the reported results are accurate and unbiased, then that person is skeptical of the science supporting the use of those products. </p> <p>Since there aren't any crowdfunded, fair-trade, capitalism-free alternatives to those vaccines, then skepticism about the science that made THE ONLY AVAILABLE PRODUCTS is tantamount to rejection of the science that validates vaccine safety. Of course this conveniently ignores the many non-industry, independent studies that have evaluated vaccine safety, not to mention population-level data on all the millions of people who have received these vaccines safely and effectively, but let's leave all that aside for the moment. </p> <p>In reply to my "Or are you/Ms. Williamson suggesting that people are willing to forgo a scientifically valid treatment just to make a point about the source?"</p> <p>You responded:</p> <blockquote><p>No. In fact, you might notice that at 7:20 she says the facts are in about the measles vaccine and that we need to get our kids vacccinated.</p></blockquote> <p>Yeah, and Bill Maher declared himself to be 'not antivax' in the opening segment, yet here we are. Not the point. Williamson took pains to make her argument impersonal, as you did. The allegation you are both making is that some number of people question the safety and efficacy testing of vaccines because they distrust the CDC and Merck (for example), and AS A RESULT OF THAT DISTRUST choose not the get their children vaccinated. </p> <p>There is no way to parse this without the acknowledgement that skepticism about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines is tantamount to skepticism about the quality of the science that backs those safety and efficacy claims. </p> <p>And, just like Jenny "Green our vaccines" McCarthy, this argument is designed to absolve those who choose not to protect against vaccine-preventable diseases against *all blame* for the resurgence of those selfsame diseases--a position so repellently self-serving it makes me ill.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284522&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-ipdsTT2uWm-aK4lpnpbcutwnMTOGj-DLpI5AG50tbU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284522">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284523" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423507908"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>'MikeK' wrote; "The two worst states for vaccinations are OR and VT, clearly strongholds of “new-age” liberalism,"</p> <p>That would be what we call A LIE. CDC data on vax rates, tens worst states for MMR uptake %</p> <p>85.7Colorado<br /> 85.9Arkansas<br /> 87.0Pennsylvania<br /> 88.4Idaho<br /> 89.9North Dakota<br /> 90.0Kansas<br /> 90.5Iowa<br /> 90.5Oklahoma<br /> 90.9South Carolina<br /> 91.3Maine</p> <p>Florida, Kentucky, Wisconsin, Alabama, and Virginia also all have lower MMR vax rates than Oregon.</p> <p>So shove your Rand Paul sign up your tuchis, go snow-shoeing in Houghton, and try not to be concerned that there's a research University in the worst spot in MI where nobody lives.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284523&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="F2qz2SgUjX-tiRnJ4_R9qwHpOLAm17it05tVYcast-Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284523">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284524" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423508489"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mike, I guess it depends on what your definition of 'worst' is. Overall uptake rates are probably influenced by a number of factors, including access to medical care, indifference, lack of information, etc. Oregon might be in the middle of the pack when it comes to overall rates, but it's definitely #1 in 'personal belief' exemptions. </p> <p>I'm not willing to say all of that is due to 'new age liberalism', especially as we have several pockets of faith healing idiots who were fatally neglecting their children's medical needs with alarming regularity until the state cracked down on that religious freedom loophole a few years back. Those people are unlikely to be vaccinating, but there are certainly plenty of neo-hippies out here who also don't. Like Orac always says, it's a non-partisan type of science denialism.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284524&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gF1PP9UpYeRhu0niOMiA7EX5ZYwLCpKk49ilnQK7gBE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284524">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284525" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423509193"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'd be interested to see a map of Oregon with vax rates by county, like the one of Michigan up at the top of this article. It's a common misconception that Oregon is an extremely "blue" state; once you get out of Portland and the I-5 corridor, it's actually almost completely "red." The population is highly concentrated in that liberal area, and the state does go blue pretty consistently, but only by a few percentage points, typically.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284525&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="B3IvZab3x5BCHa3LtiA6GMnkUOcfdtrwzA6pWRBxHuw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284525">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284526" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423509437"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh - <a href="http://public.health.oregon.gov/PreventionWellness/VaccinesImmunization/Pages/research.aspx">here we go.</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284526&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xzMfQ7ma1kqFjEDw8oJms-DrbuYivgC2JOxWFO2GTfs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284526">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284527" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423509696"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JP<br /> Exactly what I was thinking. We have the same geographical/political divide here in WA.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284527&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aSSjrHRTtF4_mUZch4cDSAGBvuJ1cvG8gJYg0eYkMCA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Emma Crew (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284527">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284528" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423509854"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Emma:</p> <p>Yeah, I grew up in WA myself, just across the Columbia from Oregon. When I tell people from Washington, they always assume Seattle or something, and I have to specify that, no, I grew up in the absolute middle of nowhere in a little ex-logging town, and Seattle it sure ain't.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284528&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oPsXY1r7NBq9JNhCQMP7uC8NWcVE8RPigPXrQBUDVwM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284528">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284529" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423509936"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmm. Perusing Oregon's immunization data, so far, it turns out that the county with the worst vax rates - Curry County, in the extreme SW of the state - is actually "light red." Multnomah county, where Portland is, is lower than I'd like for most vax rates - just south of 94% - but it's not abysmal, and roughly in the middle of the pack of Oregon's counties.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284529&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WJXtt3VuKVWi_U087cRhtI_LO-wKQbjXRcpiHUszJBM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284529">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284530" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423510049"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And Benton County, where one can find Eugene, the hippy capital of the WORLD, is actually at about 95% for childhood vaccines.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284530&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7o4plsnnn10-QbLSt9h30jp5vWZVqf50W4YxruNLtzc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284530">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284531" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423510444"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nope. Eugene is in Lane County.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284531&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h9ylxJsIcKY0lqPHoY5V4aVSqX4RcNgKm-gxPQyxz2M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284531">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284532" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423510687"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're right, I missed the county line when I was looking at the map, since it's adjacent to and roughly the same "color" as Benton County. Lane County has pretty decent vax rates, though, too, much better than Curry and esp. Josephine Counties, in the SW corner of Oregon, and which are both fairly conservative.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284532&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z6KE4RCKk7gJKn2TOemzDO1UO29wlDAy7GU9d3INhhY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284532">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284533" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423511548"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This Vine of the reaction to the question about GMO studies is priceless: <a href="https://vine.co/v/OUbOqZLrUdB">https://vine.co/v/OUbOqZLrUdB</a></p> <p>On reddit, a commenter described the reaction, "like they just watched a blind kitten get run over by a combine".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284533&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LmQ72MulMXCpklrw0VCzTS0aMaw7eVLE8dFmAGr1Ovg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mary M (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284533">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284534" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423511717"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I suppose for “two worst” he could have been looking at % of non-medical exemptions in the second chart, in which case one notes that Vermont is tied with that noted hotbed of liberalism, Idaho.</p></blockquote> <p>I strongly suspect he wasn't looking at anything, which is why I've been unforgiveably been wasting time torturing myself with Excel and the unwieldly California school-level data set.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284534&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7BiXHrimtrotHPR6sTmbpT1ebPrxvVWWuTP2kyAQkC8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284534">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284535" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423512625"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP<br /> Yeah, that would be Ashland, OR--it's been attracting national attention for low fax rates for quite a few years now. </p> <p>(Link from a 2008 Oregonian article to file under "The more things change...": <a href="http://www.oregonlive.com/kiddo/index.ssf/2008/08/post_2.html">http://www.oregonlive.com/kiddo/index.ssf/2008/08/post_2.html</a>)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284535&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j_FqPaxTmjUuFYqDGYguYohivmfwgvm9ATCWwfeqtqo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284535">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284536" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423512673"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>vax rates, not fax rates. I would imagine that fax rates are dropping at comparable rates in most areas these days :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284536&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Uv82B4A0rsI9aA6mtgBE5t8D5SCJN5YZMCHcWrc3b_w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284536">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284537" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423513483"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mike: </p> <blockquote><p>Also, enough with the conservatives don’t believe in global warming, most do believe it’s happening, they just believe it to be incredibly stupid to add regulations that will ship jobs to China, India and other 3rd world countries that harm the economy while also making the problem worse (CLEARLY less environmental regulation in China, India etc).</p></blockquote> <p>I can think of any number of Republican politicians and opinionators who emphatically deny that human action could possibly affect the climate. Who are the ones who espouse the pragmatic position described here?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284537&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uYhOCtT1yVn8ulRbnI6IIbKLKPS32nSrLf2WTkAVyak"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284537">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284538" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423513649"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Whole lot of so called "scientists" on this site seem to have their tighty whities in a bundle over the Vaxx issue. So me ONE double-blind, placebo-controlled study (vaccinated with pharma vs. vaccinated with saliene) and THEN we can talk. Up to now ALL studies are tobacco science. Placebo = aluminum + any vaxx ingredient under the sun.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284538&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Hqy58EyG30IYoo-ZUn5rUzAC5mRupoa6A81vH1Ico-k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NPhysPhd (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284538">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284539" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423513732"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Welp, taking an even closer look at which <i>schools</i> in Oregon have the lowest vac rates:</p> <p>St. Thomas Beckett Academy, in Veneta (God I miss the OCF) is a Catholic school. </p> <p>The next two worst schools are are the Woodland Charter School in Josephine County and the Shining Star private school in Portland. Both are Waldorf schools.</p> <p>Waldorf schools are f***ed six ways from Sunday. They're based on the absoulte delusional ramblings of the old-timey German charlatan, Rudolf Steiner; you can read all about them online. What really irks me is that "charter schools" which are actually Waldorf schools can get state funding just about everywhere in the US, as far as I know. Grr.</p> <p>Waldorf parents do tend to be pretty "crunchy," but they're not all liberal in the economic/political sense. What they definitely pretty much all are is <i>affluent.</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284539&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wdqxqejUCkviE-trIjRE9lZfWz-uqJTklF_sMEjMe2Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284539">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284540" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423515183"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jen,</p> <p>I suppose you can point me at "crowdfunded, fair-trade, capitalism-free" medical care other than vaccines? My physical therapist isn't, as far as I know, getting large sums of money from any pharmaceutical company, but he is entangled with the capitalist diet-and-weight-loss industry, as well as with capitalist real estate, and I doubt the school his intern attends is crowdfunded and capitalism-free.</p> <p>I mention the PT specifically because we know that Big Supplement is mostly owned by Big Pharma, and not remotely crowdsourced or capitalism-free. </p> <p>We aren't going to build socialism by rejecting one of the most cost-effective ways of saving lives, while giving large sums of money to insurance companies for surgery and treatment of vaccine-preventable diseases. Polio vaccines are cheaper than iron lungs. Come to think of it, that vaccine is not patented.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284540&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fBtrkQqbfHYbWSasPIRjiAyP_Y_TomrMlOC2ymogpxw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284540">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284541" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423518986"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Rather, I just thought (correctly, as it turns out) that he was laying low, licking his wounds."</p> <p>Licking, eh? So that's how he does it.. EVERYBODY, GO LICK YOUR CHILDREN BEFORE THE DIE OF MEASELS!!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284541&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2fHkt0MNIAlWDO8vhXXVPIsKjLZOvXVR9TvAHKZs_6U"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tom Tongue (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284541">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284542" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423520461"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: "When I tell people from Washington, they always assume Seattle or something, and I have to specify that, no, I grew up in the absolute middle of nowhere in a little ex-logging town, and Seattle it sure ain’t."</p> <p>My dad's family was in Yakima and Naches. Being an Army brat we only visited, though my "legal residence" was in Yakima. </p> <p>When we visited I got to see lots of deserts and dry side mountains. Since we often drove through central Oregon to get there, I saw a few lava fields (usually near Bend, OR). So my recollection as a child was volcanoes, scab lands, irrigated orchards and dry side mountain forests with tamarack (aka larch, a conifer that is NOT evergreen).</p> <p>I never understood why it was called the "Evergreen State."</p> <p>Then I finally moved to Seattle to attend college, and realized that the folks who gave it that name only really meant their side of the mountains.</p> <p>By the way, the Seattle Times had a map of the counties with the highest vaccines exemptions. It was really weird. It shows the highest exemptions was one county on the Olympic Peninsula, a county near the mouth of the Columbia River and Ferry County way in the North East corner of the state.</p> <p>Ah I found it: <a href="http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2025649427.html">http://seattletimes.com/ABPub/zoom/html/2025649427.html</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284542&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TNtTS_jcCE8fPzPZBHUQpaTWZWN22Q9Tgn_4aW-Vzno"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284542">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284543" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423521112"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>By the way, the Seattle Times had a map of the counties with the highest vaccines exemptions. It was really weird. It shows the highest exemptions was one county on the Olympic Peninsula, a county near the mouth of the Columbia River and Ferry County way in the North East corner of the state.</p></blockquote> <p>Ah yes, San Juan and Jefferson Counties, where the island people live. Lots and lots of rich white folks out there who take the ferry to work. I'm taling Mercer Island levels of wealth here. The folks there aren't necessarily liberal in the political sense - I'd say a lot of them probably lean libertarian - but they do tend toward crunchiness.</p> <p>One of my college roommates my first year, when I had to live on campus, was from Vashon Island. (I lived in a "suite" with three other girls.) She and I didn't get along especially well, mainly because she was a social butterful and slightly vapid, I was quiet, reserved, and somewhat angsty. My motto that year was, "If you need me, I'll be in my room reading Dante."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284543&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D6molqZvhCrbiCeVJbfkKO7qZByzt6pT1ZSCB30bvTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284543">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284544" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423521148"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, shoot, you said the north<i>east</i> part of the state. Hold on a second.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284544&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="POLfxvUQ8Jzq_cryULdeToKTSZ9oG3jNNsdT9_rLbRU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284544">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284545" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423521275"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmm. Looking at the demographic info, Ferry County - the one you're talking about - is extremely rural, and there are high levels of poverty as well, which might explain it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284545&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t38uGwXPmiqR_37y1_QOMdVUbhkLHv6XxRVSXPztglU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284545">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423521545"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Chris:</p> <blockquote><p>When we visited I got to see lots of deserts and dry side mountains. Since we often drove through central Oregon to get there, I saw a few lava fields (usually near Bend, OR). So my recollection as a child was volcanoes, scab lands, irrigated orchards and dry side mountain forests with tamarack (aka larch, a conifer that is NOT evergreen).</p> <p>I never understood why it was called the “Evergreen State.”</p></blockquote> <p>I grew up basically right on the borderline between the desert and the rainforest, on the south side of Mt. Adams; half an hour's drive to the east and there wasn't much green but sagebrush, and half an hour's drive to the west and you were under cloud cover a good 75% of the year. I grew up in some really lovely alpine forest, mixed deciduous and coniferous, but mostly fir trees. </p> <p>The place I lived, and where my mom and my brother still do, is called BZ Corner. It has a small internet presence, but it does not have a zip code.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0AmnuPgRJVNMJ_RC68ykSyYTZrtI-ho0fddn_26guWI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423522424"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>hilariously though Malibu, Santa Monica and San Fran have 3 lowest rates in California BY FAR AND IT’S NOT EVEN CLOSE (none are in the OC btw)</p></blockquote> <p>I have Malibu at <a href="http://i.imgur.com/ZS04DdB.jpg">around No. 58</a>, blowhard.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fa7yhS8GeZ6pym4X3TIC8BiPJ9VN1VC0M1C5drglnaw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423522943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^ See also the maps <a href="http://www.ppic.org/main/publication_quick.asp?i=1007">here</a>, taking due note of, oh, say Placer and Nevada Counties in the population-weighted on.</p> <p>And if you don't like the data cuts, you're free to <a href="http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/pages/immunizationlevels.aspx">do it yourself</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z5FA5XXNa42IKLxA9EGA3sBb9aN6gNveMa9sZc4lxXY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423523744"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^^ "population-weighted <b>one</b>"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KrBdIhiyr_qp2Ig28odmx5KLLHbVo5wlXxDUMtHRe7k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423524972"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Vicki--what? Is that phrase the only part of my comment you read? You've got the wrong end of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mauBfZxmg90wDeJ-bnEDEGchBQVuDC72QQMSbo5nHRc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423527307"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>^^^ <a href="http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/voter2/Dashboard1?:embed=y&amp;:showVizHome=no&amp;:host_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublic.tableausoftware.com%2F&amp;:tabs=no&amp;:toolbar=yes&amp;:animate_transition=yes&amp;:display_static_image=yes&amp;:display_spinner=yes&amp;:display_overlay=yes&amp;:display_count=yes&amp;:loadOrderID=0">almost forgot</a>.</p> <p>Inglewood comes in overall at a 0.8% PBE, enrollment at 913 versus Malibu's poorly cherry-picked 115. I'm available at standard rates, Conserv-O-Pud.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5V17ufCLCjXeqkp8t1u5GLUexuO7TteHCp4gmTyBDDA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423528548"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ JP #84<br /> As I posted yesterday, in Minnesota its the religious schools with the highest exemption rates.<br /><a href="http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/kids-health/290976531.html">http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/kids-health/290976531.html</a><br /> The list doesn’t show which schools are public or private, but parsing the names and checking a few, the bad actors are mostly some sort of conservative Christian thing; and the Waldorf schools are farther down the list. The worst exemption rate, 50%, is at a Christian “Charlotte Mason” school. Does anyone know what that is? But I'm not sure this info means much....</p> <p>I suggest we be careful about making broad condemnations of any kind of schools, such that things that might be true of (X) number of that type would be true of all members of that type. I'm sure there are some Christian schools, especially Catholic, with very few exemptions. I suspect the way individual schools of any 'type' operate varies from one local situation to another. </p> <p>More importantly, the presence of non-vaxed at any given private school may have more to do with geography than the school. I.e., in that area, that school may just be the only option for the vax-doubting parents, regardless of the general educational philosophy. The clusters of non-vaxers may move around a bit with the normal ebb and flow of neighborhood demographics, and the 'problem' schools may follow the clusters, more the clusters flow from the schools.</p> <p>A 'CASE STUDY'<br /> My best friends here in the Bay Area, B. and J., sent their now-grown daughter C. to a Waldorf school. At the time, their district had the kind of public elementary schools progressive middle-class parents didn't want to send their kids, so the question was "which private school?" They went with Waldorf because it wasn't religious, emphasized arts and creativity, and they liked the idea of teachers staying with the kids through grade levels.</p> <p>In later years J. made some vague remarks about Waldorf having some odd tenets, but her attitude seemed to be 'it's not that bad, and we just ignore it.' I never heard J. or B. complain about the teacher or other parents being woo-ey. I met a few of the parents they'd befriended in C.'s group. They all seemed 'normal' and not 'crunchy' by NoCal standards. B. taught English at a Junior College, so the family was not exactly well-to-do, and the other parents I met weren't particularly affluent either. (A small self-selected sample of course.)</p> <p>But C. would have been in Kindergarden in 1995. I certainly hadn't heard anything about vaccines at the time, so I have no idea if anti-vax was a Thing at the school while C. was there. When my friends moved there in the early 90s, the town (Mountain View) was a kind of sleepy burb that had not yet felt the Silicon Valley boom that had hit the surrounding communities. But in 2004, Google snapped up all that empty space, and Mountain View went Boom in a big way. B. says some of the town-homes on their cul-de--sac have been bought by young Googlers with no furniture and Teslas in the garage.</p> <p>Anyway, I Googled, and yup, the school where C. had gone (though middle school only) was in the national news a few years ago for having one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country: 23%. It appears, though, that while the school was doing "well it's your choice" the super low rate had more to do with the parents choosing the school than with the school philosophy actively promoting anti-vax. When that story broke, the school was more embarrassed than defiant, and began encouraging parents (very gently, I guess) to get the kids vaccinated. The vax rate has been rising steadily since, but was still below 50% before Disneyland.</p> <p>A THOUGHT &amp; A QUESTION<br /> While I can see how the Silicon Valley vibe would accomodate non-vaxers, nothing about the area says 'hard-core CT anti-vaxer haven' to me, though that's just an intuitive impression not backed by hard data. This is one area where I'd expect vax rates to go up significantly post Disneyland. We'll see.</p> <p>The question is motivated by the changing demographics of Silicon Valley and the upper SF penninsula as well. where many areas have swelling populations from Asia and the sub-continent. I don't really know where or how any sort of woo fits in this hybrid immigrant culture. If the stereotypical Marin County resident is a relatively priveleged ex-flower chid, the stereotypical Santa Clara County residents are young Chinese couples fiercely pushing their kids into STEM, and 20-something Indian software engineers with hot cars. </p> <p>Tthe Eastern influence is not 'ancient wisdom' but the Eastern version of modern go-go capitalism. I sense there's a persistence of certain tenets derived from Eastern theology, but rewired as business-success philosophies. 'The Zen of the IPO' or something. Anyone familiar with the area have any thoughts?<br /> ..............<br /> (In college, C. decided she wanted to work in medicine, took a fair amount of science, and now works as a medical technician for a physician in Brooklyn. She wants to be a Physicians Assistant, and is applying to schools for that now.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FTaBv6P3CHuwETPej99u-hSb2coWL_K0Vit_HJXJlJA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423529284"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN</p> <blockquote><p>Also, enough with the conservatives don’t believe in global warming, most do believe it’s happening</p></blockquote> <p>Citation definitely needed since <a href="http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/03/congress-climate-deniers/">56% of Republican Congresscritters are full on AGW denialsts</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OoQ9RrahepnPRj7thQv9vr7KYdMjPVzXE3vkn7hrLtA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Militant Agnostic (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423529634"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@sadmar:</p> <p>First off, the Catholic school I mentioned is connected to a church which holds to the Latin Mass, so I doubt they're representative of Catholic schools in general, but rather of some extreme fringe.</p> <p>The image that Waldorf schools project to the public is that of a nice, arts-centered, progressive education. The reality is starkly different, and even parents are often not aware of what the schools are really like. (Steinerism is basically an occult society - for reals - and that's how esotericism works: there's a lot you don't know about unless and until you get closer or into the "inner circle.") I worked in one for a year, so I know of what I speak. (I worked in the after-school care, which was significantly less "dyed-in-the-wool" Anthroposophical, hence their willingness to hire a heathen such as myself.)</p> <p>I have problems with Waldorf schools that go far beyond just vax rates; it would take a long time to go into all of them, but the schools are hardly "progressive" - they're fascist, Teutonic little places. The lovely watercolors the kids bring home are copied straight from the blackboard, as are their copy books and pretty much all the art they do during school hours. (In "after care" we let them draw whatever the hell they felt like.) Steiner's race philosophy is abhorrent. The schools tend to have problems with bullying, and the teacheers turn a blind eye. There's a lot more.</p> <p>In any case, Steiner was specifically anti-vax. See <a>here.</a></p> <blockquote><p>The rejection of vaccination is guided by a number of esoteric beliefs. Firstly, that childhood illnesses have a role in shaping the body and spirit and that these are a natural, if not vital part of growing up. Secondly, that the manifestation of illnesses is a consequence of karma or destiny. Interfering with either of these aspects can have calamitous results.</p> <p>Steiner wrote that vaccination was an interference in ‘karmic activity”, That is, by interfering with karmic processes, delays in spiritual progression may occur. He said, “If we destroy the susceptibility to smallpox [by vaccination], we are concentrating only on the external side of karmic activity”. Corresponding spiritual lessons may not be leaned.</p> <p>Steiner also believed childhood illnesses had a role in shaping a child both physically and spiritually. Here we see beliefs that coincide with those of homeopaths: that vaccinations are part of ‘allopathy’ and work by suppressing the natural healing processes. Steiner was an advocate of a form of homeopathic medicine and so it is no surprise we see convergence in these attitudes.</p></blockquote> <p>As regards affluence, the private Waldorf schools cost as much per student per year as tuition at a decent college. The charter Waldorf schools bug me even more, because I don't care what anybody says, Waldorf schools are religious schools and they ought not be running on the taxpayer's dime.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="P2IDPB6DbxXu8-hyJyPUCfU8SZuv3q-9hNcV8KIaAfc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423531880"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Steinerism is basically an occult society – for reals</p></blockquote> <p>I did get great CSA boxes from <a href="http://www.angelicorganics.com/Angelic_Organics___Chicago_CSA/Angelic_Organics___Farmer_John_Productions.html">these Steinerites</a> until sunchoke "season" set in, though, back in the day.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dJEhk1loKjL_jCD_gs3aXpA0k8JrAHCIORK9eU_qpxE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423532010"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>From the troll</p> <blockquote><p>Well Monsanto got nowhere in Europe</p></blockquote> <p>It has no trouble selling roundup and regular seeds. In an announcement over 6 months ago, Monsanto spokespeople stated the group was going to shift away from GMO and reinforce on regular stuff in Europa. Their sale strategists are not stupid.<br /> Let's not mention the other 5 of the big six agribusinesses. Syngenta and Bayer are not doing too bad in Europa, either...</p> <p>-------------------------<br /> Re: vaccination a liberal issue, especially around Los Angeles.<br /> In a previous thread, there is a citation by Bob Sears stating clearly that Republicans politicians have been responsible for the broadening of the current vaccination exemption laws, and Democrats are less sympathetic about it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_L1eM8pjSdugzUKfNuHXMmPsmOqnD_ju6ddxo_TZz9k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423532020"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So sad. I have grown to like Bill Maher as someone who asks good questions and then riffs on the funniest parts. But this is all kinds of stupid. Practically every sentence shows his abject stupidity.<br /> Seriously, I've been a fan of his since he started leaning away from Libertarianism - it was too crazy even for him - but this show sounds like a return to his roots of crackpot conspiracy theories. Bill, you can't say "we should be able to ask questions" and then allow your guest to be laughed out of the room because he asks one. It's shameful. This is like watching the Libertarian Glenn Beck.<br /> I'm really shocked by this segment. He shrugs off the actual Doctor he had on his show and then talks about vaccines with 3 people who know nothing, almost nothing, and less than nothing(from left to right). Crazy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BjREm4H-ap_ffGlviagO_VYKYJMPfype5G4INnbJUVE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tony M (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284558" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423532256"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I did get great CSA boxes from these Steinerites until sunchoke “season” set in, though, back in the day.</p></blockquote> <p>Fillin' them cowhorns...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284558&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZagLJHwxxkuigpZFrXxExVUFaT91hFEPVCkHH4PM4Tc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284558">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284559" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423532612"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>vaccinated with pharma vs. vaccinated with <b>saliene</b></p></blockquote> <p>I've got 2 quatloos on Philip Hills.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284559&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XgUZRJB1wC2Lrlmn_FqFpONfAvhxePbeo4zDC1Jt7Ag"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284559">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284560" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423535038"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Narad:</p> <p>Do you have a text version of the chart from #93? The .jpg gets all blurry with artifacting when I try to blow it up enough to read, and it would be nice to have something editable/sortable/cut-pasteable.</p> <p>#97 I immediately noted how different the 'liberal' cities at the top of that chart are from one another. Perhaps the 'liberals don't vax' meme has somehow erased all the non-white, not-privileged people who vote for Democrats?</p> <p>CITY / DEMOGRAHIC / MEDIAN INCOME<br /> Berkeley / White intellectual/professional / $60,908<br /> Inglewood / Black-Hispanic / $44,558<br /> Compton / Black ghetto / $42,335<br /> Oakland / really poor Black people and middle-class White-Asian liberals / $51,863<br /> Richmond / diverse working-class and working poor / $44,210<br /> San Francisco / economically and racially diverse / $65,519</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284560&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GiYIYQevPK1gtHA1BTeYqP-ZB_OFvrxw0Oz0rnOKS38"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284560">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284561" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423536503"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Monsanto spokespeople stated the group was going to shift away from GMO and reinforce on regular stuff in Europa. Their sale strategists are not stupid." Helios</p> <p>That's the problem, it's all about sales strategy not saftey and that GMO loons is why no one in Europe trusts the snakes. I remember top Monsanto guy on radio a few years ago crying why doesn't anyone like us. Response was no one trusts you etc. He then responded that it only failed because they got the marketing wrong.</p> <p>If it's a great idea, why does it need marketing. It is what these arrogant arses will never get, you can always smell a rat when someone uses marko speak.</p> <p>By the way I am not Mr Hill. the devils advocat resisting the age of endarkenment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284561&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qYWnVQrWCjx6307va0ekbCkTDKOhVjVNPRwgVucoWLw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284561">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284562" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423536897"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"</p> <p> but ORAC it is the whole process of ‘evidence’ that is in disrepute. </p> <p>"What, pray tell, do you think is a honest and reliable source of information in this world?" zietgiest<br /> Definitely not medical peer reviewed industry funded fake placebo RCT's. Those whose living depends on being allowed a measure of artistic licence in how they promote their goods and services aren’t going to let the truth get in the way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284562&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vYafeoPaSfhecn71JU9eYd5yQ7IRLfywIQCICNW4ZoU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284562">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284563" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423537144"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>vaccinated with pharma vs. vaccinated with saliene<br /> I’ve got 2 quatloos on Philip Hills.</i></p> <p>I'm not convinced. Certainly some of Philip's incarnations (Sarah007, nobby) use the "tobacco science" dumbprint, but it's not unique to them. I find it hard to imagine Philip having the nous to misspell "aluminium".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284563&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aiUnOD8dboHoSJIYRqiV9_xsfHybLo_YYY5Up3N-st8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284563">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284564" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423543838"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Do you have a text version of the chart from #93? The .jpg gets all blurry with artifacting when I try to blow it up enough to read, and it would be nice to have something editable/sortable/cut-pasteable.</p></blockquote> <p>I provided a link to the original data. I suggest moving it straight to something usable, such as SQL, rather than repeating my own error of using Excel.</p> <p>If you are <b><i>dead freaking set</i></b> on starting from a mess rather than from scratch, you can try <a href="https://infotomb.com/jffab.ppt">this</a>. I neither know nor care why, but the file extension should be '.xls', not '.ppt'.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284564&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9m77-c-qw3GGsceR2ljDCBKDSkeaIA8ZxnGuRoXkxLI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284564">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284565" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423544039"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I’m not convinced.</p></blockquote> <p>Neither am I, which is why I only bet 2 quatloos.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284565&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ggm6ASnlj15aTvSkEC11x3DFJxH5nVFd8cnEs1Lf6WY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 09 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284565">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284566" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423548009"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well a lot more people like Bill than you guys, judging by the non sanitized hit rate here.</p> <p>"The potentially profitable drug Gorski is in the process of conducting a clinical trial for is the ALS drug Riluzole, made by Sanofi-Aventis and marketed as Rilutek. Amplifying the conflict further is that the same drug is also being studied for the treatment of autism." now it all makes sense David.</p> <p>keep on cutting the head off the hydra, you obviously are not operating today!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284566&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nC1jlyWmCvcglhbwUa0LU5gzVxUk6kH0VwB_E7anyMA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pop socket (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284566">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284567" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423548030"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Waldorf schools are f***ed six ways from Sunday. They’re based on the absoulte delusional ramblings of the old-timey German charlatan, Rudolf Steiner; you can read all about them online. Grr.</i></p> <p>"<a href="http://eusa-riddled.blogspot.co.nz/2011/05/increasingly-irregular-skull-blogging.html?showComment=1305450588349#c8152678904386700057">Any attempt to grapple with Rudolf Steiner philosophy is going to come out weird.</a> You try reading him. It is like a primer in psychotic ideation and loose metaphors taken literally. "The skull as an inverted femur" is just a warm-up for Steiner. Don't start him on (for instance) the unification of embryology and cosmology."</p> <p>"And yet he is seen as an influential figure in early-20th-century culture. His straight-out-of-his-arse ideas on agriculture and pest control -- combining homeopathy, astrology, sympathetic magic and a basic barminess all of his own -- are taken seriously among New Zealand organic farmers, to the point that they are almost synonymous with the Green movement. Here and in the UK, Steiner Schools are seen as a legitimate part of the educational system, where teachers are expected to accept the basic tenets of 1920s pseudoscience."</p> <p>"If this is human intelligence at work then we are a doomed experiment. But you knew that. "</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284567&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1Z1rLeG1rbe3qhU4vu6jamVgjv2F0_NQxCvA2SJANiE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284567">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284568" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423550214"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A little vaccination levity...pretty funny:</p> <p><a href="http://boingboing.net/2015/02/08/having-the-brakes-removed-from.html">http://boingboing.net/2015/02/08/having-the-brakes-removed-from.html</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284568&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O8EcD6n-AB9rAYH49XwGokB5bhg6xnp6qCP_iPAmdtQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Michelle (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284568">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284569" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423553070"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@HDB: He also came up with the lunacy of biodynamic farming, which Prince Charles is a keen proponent of. (In much the same way that he seems to adopt every wingnut idea...)</p> <p><a href="http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/07/is-biodynamic-farming-vegan.html">http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/07/is-biodynamic-farming-vegan.html</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284569&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_uV-LmfOm6smnrnUwBj8tRYDFV25spyzh_6YSiUkb1k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Rebecca Fisher (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284569">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284570" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423560498"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> I have problems with Waldorf schools that go far beyond just vax rates; it would take a long time to go into all of them, but the schools are hardly “progressive” – they’re fascist, Teutonic little places. The lovely watercolors the kids bring home are copied straight from the blackboard, as are their copy books and pretty much all the art they do during school hours. ... Steiner’s race philosophy is abhorrent. The schools tend to have problems with bullying, and the teacheers turn a blind eye. There’s a lot more. </p></blockquote> <p>Standing Ovation! Thanks for telling it like it is.</p> <p>A new emphasis is "Waldorf influenced charter Schools". If you see a charter with a really really low vac uptake rate, odds are the word "Waldorf" is mentioned on the school's website.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284570&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HpNO7XG1zMAFLAPbdNyn2klu98TZYl-mDDCFroffc2Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284570">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284571" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423563861"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, one of the Waldorf schools on that list you're all perusing is less than a mile from my house. It's been an interesting drive-by experience for my family over the years, but also makes us feel rather vulnerable considering the potential for measles to come parading through the neighborhood swinging its handwoven lunch basket.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284571&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ldKGrCeS1tAUH6W6xZt5JASzGfvCYSeOwrmD5XLNtPw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284571">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284572" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423563908"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And one of those "Waldorf influenced charter school"--also on that list, is less than 2 miles away. Sigh.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284572&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KnQCsScIGxVKDSBwTjR77-7oqzOkd7CuFLo28_zd7KM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284572">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284573" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423564169"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I don't know why people are obsessing over the percentage of personal belief exemptions as opposed to the actual number of kindergarteners missing the MMR vaccine.</p> <p>I downloaded the .xls file for California kindergarteners 2014-2015, rewrote the header row, and added columns for "number missing x vaccine" (enrollment - up to date for x vaccine).</p> <p>The two schools having the largest number of students without 2 doses of MMR have zero personal belief exemptions, but 148 and 146 kindergarteners, respectively. The students were admitted on conditional entry. </p> <p>Both are in the Los Angeles Unified District; Olympic Primary Center is in the city of LA; Miles Avenue Elementary is in Huntington Park.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284573&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5TMHqg3wIjvgSELhwQC6mPgueyDOHoEAMguUNjDDx70"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284573">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284574" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423564330"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jen #68</p> <blockquote><p> As such, if someone is skeptical that a study *reporting the safety and/or efficacy of those vaccines* was done properly and the reported results are accurate and unbiased, then that person is skeptical of the science supporting the use of those products. </p></blockquote> <p> Yes. But the accusation of being skeptical of science is implying that the person doesn’t believe the results of any properly done study. Not that they have doubts about the trustworthiness of particular studies. Nobody levels the charge of being anti-science at doubters of the Wakefield study. </p> <blockquote><p> Since there aren’t any crowdfunded, fair-trade, capitalism-free alternatives to those vaccines, then skepticism about the science that made THE ONLY AVAILABLE PRODUCTS is tantamount to rejection of the science that validates vaccine safety. Of course this conveniently ignores the many non-industry, independent studies that have evaluated vaccine safety, not to mention population-level data on all the millions of people who have received these vaccines safely and effectively<br /></p><blockquote> These two statements seem contradictory. They aren’t, because ‘vaccines’ are not a monolithic group. Some vaccines, such as the measles vaccine, has been extensively researched independently by many different organizations and found to have low risks and excellent effectiveness. Newer vaccines do not have such a wealth of data available. <blockquote><p>The allegation you are both making is that some number of people question the safety and efficacy testing of vaccines because they distrust the CDC and Merck (for example), and AS A RESULT OF THAT DISTRUST choose not the get their children vaccinated. </p></blockquote> <p> Yes. That is the allegation. I think it’s true. Why do you think it is not?</p> <blockquote><p>There is no way to parse this without the acknowledgement that skepticism about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines is tantamount to skepticism about the quality of the science that backs those safety and efficacy claims.<br /></p><blockquote> One can have skepticism about the quality of the science backing particular safety and efficacy claims without being anti-vaccine or anti-science. What is your issue with that? <blockquote><p>this argument is designed to absolve those who choose not to protect against vaccine-preventable diseases against *all blame* for the resurgence of those selfsame diseases–a position so repellently self-serving it makes me ill. </p></blockquote> <p> I’m sorry that you must endure a self-inflected illness at the idea that other people hold different views that you find repugnant. I happen to agree that the surge in measles is most probably due in large part to those who have chosen not to vaccinate. I also find that choice to be a reasonable and predictable response to the observable bias and corruption that seems part and parcel of the pharmaceutical industry in the U.S., so I cannot condemn it without also condemning the circumstances that gave rise to that distrust.<br /> Finally, as a result of the measles outbreaks, I think many ‘vaccine hesitant parents’ will realize that the benefits of the measles vaccine outweigh the risks and get their kids vaccinated for that disease. Looks like the legal exemptions for public school attendance may be tightened as well, which will should have that effect.</p></blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284574&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dxMTTOJkcye1TcdtDP4weK_5EEeyFM5k69l60L_JbHc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284574">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284575" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423564428"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sorry about the double post and messing up the quotes</p> <p>@Jen #68</p> <blockquote><p> As such, if someone is skeptical that a study *reporting the safety and/or efficacy of those vaccines* was done properly and the reported results are accurate and unbiased, then that person is skeptical of the science supporting the use of those products. </p></blockquote> <p> Yes. But the accusation of being skeptical of science is implying that the person doesn’t believe the results of any properly done study. Not that they have doubts about the trustworthiness of particular studies. Nobody levels the charge of being anti-science at doubters of the Wakefield study. </p> <blockquote><p> Since there aren’t any crowdfunded, fair-trade, capitalism-free alternatives to those vaccines, then skepticism about the science that made THE ONLY AVAILABLE PRODUCTS is tantamount to rejection of the science that validates vaccine safety. Of course this conveniently ignores the many non-industry, independent studies that have evaluated vaccine safety, not to mention population-level data on all the millions of people who have received these vaccines safely and effectively </p></blockquote> <p>These two statements seem contradictory. They aren’t, because ‘vaccines’ are not a monolithic group. Some vaccines, such as the measles vaccine, has been extensively researched independently by many different organizations and found to have low risks and excellent effectiveness. Newer vaccines do not have such a wealth of data available. </p> <blockquote><p>The allegation you are both making is that some number of people question the safety and efficacy testing of vaccines because they distrust the CDC and Merck (for example), and AS A RESULT OF THAT DISTRUST choose not the get their children vaccinated. </p></blockquote> <p> Yes. That is the allegation. I think it’s true. Why do you think it is not?</p> <blockquote><p>There is no way to parse this without the acknowledgement that skepticism about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines is tantamount to skepticism about the quality of the science that backs those safety and efficacy claims. </p></blockquote> <p> One can have skepticism about the quality of the science backing particular safety and efficacy claims without being anti-vaccine or anti-science. What is your issue with that?</p> <blockquote><p>this argument is designed to absolve those who choose not to protect against vaccine-preventable diseases against *all blame* for the resurgence of those selfsame diseases–a position so repellently self-serving it makes me ill. </p></blockquote> <p> I’m sorry that you must endure a self-inflected illness at the idea that other people hold different views that you find repugnant. I happen to agree that the surge in measles is most probably due in large part to those who have chosen not to vaccinate. I also find that choice to be a reasonable and predictable response to the observable bias and corruption that seems part and parcel of the pharmaceutical industry in the U.S., so I cannot condemn it without also condemning the circumstances that gave rise to that distrust.<br /> Finally, as a result of the measles outbreaks, I think many ‘vaccine hesitant parents’ will realize that the benefits of the measles vaccine outweigh the risks and get their kids vaccinated for that disease. Looks like the legal exemptions for public school attendance may be tightened as well, which will should have that effect.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284575&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_9WDgCFQJd2j_Ih69gyslzFIYs3X-Gp4rK3U6xG-Bok"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284575">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284576" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423565333"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In Santa Clara County (or Silicon Valley) the two schools having the largest number of students lacking 2 doses of MMR are a public charter schools (Rocketship Spark Academy in San Jose) 27 students, 0 PBE -- all conditional entry) and a private school (Merryhill School in Milpitas, 23 students 0 PBE -- all conditional entry). </p> <p>SURPRISE! (not) Waldorf School of the Peninsula (in Los Altos, but draws from all over the South Bay) has 21 students lacking 2 doses of MMR, but only 18 PBEs.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284576&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0gNSaA0rGDQGSliqPIgiSo2iAnvH3wnEprje0GD_Ot4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284576">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284577" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423566483"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thank you for your response, Beth. </p> <blockquote><p>Nobody levels the charge of being anti-science at doubters of the Wakefield study.</p></blockquote> <p>No, the anti-science people are the one who ate that shit up, and still do to this day, despite it being thoroughly discredited. Recall that it was the medical experts doubting and investigating and trying to find the truth behind Wakefield's work, because it stood in direct conflict with a much larger body of research. That is the complete opposite of the situation we are discussing, in which concerned laypeople are questioning the validity of the vast body of research behind the current childhood vaccine schedule.</p> <blockquote><p>Newer vaccines do not have such a wealth of data available.</p></blockquote> <p>Really? Name one vaccine on the childhood schedule that has not been studied and reported on beyond the clinical trials prior to release. </p> <blockquote><p>Yes. That is the allegation. I think it’s true. Why do you think it is not?</p></blockquote> <p>I never said I didn't think it was true, I merely asked for clarification of how that position is not one of skepticism about the validity of the science. You've clarified that now. </p> <blockquote><p>One can have skepticism about the quality of the science backing particular safety and efficacy claims without being anti-vaccine or anti-science. What is your issue with that?</p></blockquote> <p>My issue is that it is very easy to wear the mantle of Just Asking Questions for the Greater Good while spreading a point of view that casts unreasonable doubt on vaccine safety and efficacy. This is functionally an anti-vax position, no matter what label the person holding it chooses to identify with. There is nothing wrong with 'questioning' in and of itself, but all the questions in this case have been asked and answered multiple times by independent researchers around the world. To continue to question in light of the overwhelming evidence of safety and efficacy, especially when framing the question as a case of Big Pharma's duplicity, is irresponsible. It is fearmongering, pure and simple, and is a key reason why sections of our otherwise healthy population now find themselves vulnerable to vaccine-preventable disease.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284577&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TP5Ga3KdjZIbKdXBNiuF-XYvTQdzpk_2GMJLz_tsnVQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284577">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284578" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423568042"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Liz;<br /> Totally agree it's the uptake rate, not the exemption rate that's important. Alas, most of the reporting sources focus on the exemptions, so it takes a kind of deep dive into the state records to get the actual vax rates. E.g. the link from the Strib with the MN Dept of Health data was just exemptions.</p> <p>But it's useful IMHO to comare the two numbers, as that provides a rough index of hard-core anti-vax (exemption) vs. just non-vax (lacking the 2 MMR, but not having an exemption),. In general, there are a lot more non-vaxers than anti-vaxers by that measure. It's also odd, and perhaps useful, that they don't correlate well. That is the ratio of exemptions to actual non-vaxed varies a lot from location to location. </p> <p>What if anything, does that suggest to you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284578&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GfXFBRGVGLmsygT7oBgilRm7dRlkHjOp84vAsa1wBbo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284578">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284579" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423568196"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Really? Name one vaccine on the childhood schedule that has not been studied and reported on beyond the clinical trials prior to release.</p></blockquote> <p>I declined the Rotovirus for my infant son back in early 2000 because I did not feel it had been sufficiently studied and reviewed. Not long after that, they pulled it off the schedule due and revamped it. As my youngest is now almost grown, I'm not familiar with the newer vaccines that have been added to the schedule, but my understanding is that testing of new vaccines is controlled by the companies that will produce that vaccine and FDA oversight is inadequate to instill trust that the reported results are accurate and unbiased. </p> <blockquote><p>My issue is that it is very easy to wear the mantle of Just Asking Questions for the Greater Good while spreading a point of view that casts unreasonable doubt on vaccine safety and efficacy. This is functionally an anti-vax position, no matter what label the person holding it chooses to identify with. </p></blockquote> <p>I think it is important to recognize the validity of questions and sincerity of the person asking rather than label someone as "anti-vaccine" simply for asking questions when you think they should already know and trust the answers the medical establishment has provided you with. </p> <blockquote><p>There is nothing wrong with ‘questioning’ in and of itself, but all the questions in this case have been asked and answered multiple times by independent researchers around the world. </p></blockquote> <p> It sort of depends on what questions have been asked. As Ms. Williamson said, the facts are in on the measles vaccine. On the other hand, I think that many of the newer vaccines do not have the same quality and quantity of evidence available. </p> <blockquote><p>To continue to question in light of the overwhelming evidence of safety and efficacy, especially when framing the question as a case of Big Pharma’s duplicity, is irresponsible. It is fearmongering, pure and simple, and is a key reason why sections of our otherwise healthy population now find themselves vulnerable to vaccine-preventable disease.</p></blockquote> <p>I'll simply have to disagree with you.<br /> In addition, there is the issue that many people do not trust the answers the medical establish is providing. If they do not understand the research itself (and many well-educated people either cannot or do not have the time and resources to familiarize themselves with all the research available) then they are faced with choosing who to trust. Given the history of the pharmaceutical industry and the apparent 'capturing' of the FDA by that industry, I do not condemn parents who decide not to trust their studies and recommendations.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284579&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LNfLLTWNkqzcm56-ZKGTh4MThzZeCRSkvh4WIpw-2P0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284579">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284580" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423568847"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sadmar, I am sadly ignorant about Los Angeles County.</p> <p>A quick glance at DataQuest says that &gt;60% of Rocketship Spark Academy are English Language Learners (ELLs). Can't find in a quick search the % of free &amp; reduced price lunch enrollees, but it is generally parallel to ELLs.</p> <p>Not sure what accounts for Merryhill's high rate of MMR delay.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284580&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Gqxnk5dnnR0cbKIB5_Hs-XZMfi3BsuDH4DO5640_mNg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284580">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284581" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423569641"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Beth - said like a person that doesn't understand how intensive the clinical trial process actually is &amp; how many drugs / treatments never make it through.....</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284581&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6M6lWAmFcgGBbBOCXcJ9N5rJFWrtK0IbG8TXURaPI_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284581">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284582" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423570732"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I declined the Rotovirus for my infant son back in early 2000 because I did not feel it had been sufficiently studied and reviewed. Not long after that, they pulled it off the schedule due and revamped it.</p></blockquote> <p>Do you mean <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm">RotaShield</a>, which was taken off the market in 1999? Indeed, there were some side effects which, while still rare, were concerning enough to retool the product. Tell me, which do you think had more effect on that action? Parents and politicians 'just asking questions', or scientific studies of the cohorts of infants receiving the vaccine? I don't think this argument works in your favor, honestly, because it exemplifies the very system of safety and efficacy monitoring that you've been steadfastly ignoring. </p> <blockquote><p>I’m not familiar with the newer vaccines that have been added to the schedule, but my understanding is that testing of new vaccines is controlled by the companies that will produce that vaccine and FDA oversight is inadequate to instill trust that the reported results are accurate and unbiased.</p></blockquote> <p>. Your understanding is incomplete. Here's a review of the ways in with the current Rotavirus vaccines are being tracked, since you brought up that one in particular: <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/RotaVSB.html">http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/RotaVSB.html</a></p> <p>The main point being: vaccines are widely distributed and administered. If safety or efficacy problems of the type that you and Ms. Williamson seem to want to wring your hands about actually existed in the currently administered vaccines, it would be *impossible* for Big Pharma to cover that up. Your concerns are invalid. </p> <blockquote><p>I do not condemn parents who decide not to trust their studies and recommendations.</p></blockquote> <p>Neither do I, honestly. I do hold the uneducated bombasts like Maher and guests partially responsible for spreading unfounded concern, however. And I don't consider calling a position 'anti-vax' to be a condemnation in and of itself. If a person declines vaccination for philosophical reasons, the particulars of their philosophy really don't matter. Whether they opt out due to fears about autism or toxins or dirty Merck dollars is immaterial, if the action at the end of it results in a child not receiving preventative medical care.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284582&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qL9D5kzwx13hk4vbnUZGawRaES6RTEu1r3vNUEXGQeY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284582">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284583" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423573055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Liz:<br /> Silicon Valley is in Santa Clara County, but most of the County is NOT part of Silicon Valle. Neither Rocketship or Merryhill are in particularly techie areas. As I've mentioned before, the recent measles exposures in Santa Clara Cty were in the non-Silicon Valley parts including a WalMart &amp; Costco S. of San Jose, and a Discount Mall in Milpitas, not far from the Merryhill school.</p> <p>Speaking of Republicans... Merryhill is run by Nobel Learning Comminities, a big for-profit venture listed on the NASDAQ with an active hype machine generating glowing reports about it in various publictions. It's notorious for high staff turnover, ultra low teacher wages, and heavy handed, business-oriented administrators with no bg in education: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/mhgp53u">http://tinyurl.com/mhgp53u</a> Just the kind of folks the GOP has been pimping for decades in their efforts to replace public schools with 'free-market solutions' to primary education.</p> <p>"Teachers are treated horriably by management who care only about $$$ and have no interest in the children."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284583&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0NASF8ZtIwtlXy1S_qkviuDul0ixTTIIf5hwsfSGkG0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284583">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284584" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423573475"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Jen, </p> <p>Yes, I meant the Rotashield. It's been a long time. </p> <blockquote><p>Tell me, which do you think had more effect on that action? Parents and politicians ‘just asking questions’, or scientific studies of the cohorts of infants receiving the vaccine? I don’t think this argument works in your favor, honestly, because it exemplifies the very system of safety and efficacy monitoring that you’ve been steadfastly ignoring.</p></blockquote> <p>You asked me to "Name one vaccine on the childhood schedule that has not been studied and reported on beyond the clinical trials prior to release." I think that one qualifies as insufficiently studied prior to release and being put on the recommended schedule. </p> <p>I think scientific studies were the reason for the withdrawal. I think a biased committee heavily influenced by industry (in 1999, over half the ACIP committee members had conflict of interest statements on file) was what put it on the schedule prior to recognizing such problems. </p> <p>While I am glad to recognize that we have good systems in place to catch and correct such errors, it does not promote trust in the system when such errors occur even if they are caught and corrected after only a few excess infant deaths.</p> <blockquote><p> If safety or efficacy problems of the type that you and Ms. Williamson seem to want to wring your hands about actually existed in the currently administered vaccines, it would be *impossible* for Big Pharma to cover that up. Your concerns are invalid." </p></blockquote> <p>Certainly that is true for the measles vaccine. Whether it is true for ALL vaccines currently administered, I can't say. I haven't looked closely into all the research. </p> <p>If you feel that the system is worthy of your trust, that's fine. But there are far too many examples of drug trials with data falsified and/or serious problems that were not reported and included in the results for me to agree with you on that point. </p> <p>Not trusting the system that is conducting and overseeing the studies because it has been shown guilty of having done poor work and even outright fraudulent behavior in other drug trials is not an irrational or anti-science position.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284584&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_CVFEoqTJ2CbCjyUS0kyd65GSwV98Nx99z2lS-Whc6A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284584">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284585" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423574188"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Liz:</p> <p>I don't know San Jose well, but it has a large Hispanic population, more concentrated on the East side of town IIRC, and Rocketship is on the Eastern side. Could be a lot of native Spanish speakers. AFAIK the Asian immigrants in SJ are more on the West side, closer to Silicon Valley. There are a number of private schools that serve that community, which AFAIK are pretty traditional 'high-academic' types.</p> <p>Milpitas is a pretty middle-middle-class burb. No affluence. No poverty. Everything's a franchise. But it's the kind of place that could have just enough problems with the public schools that a lot of parents are looking for alternatives, and Merryhill comes in with big promises and aggressive sales — and probably a bit lower tuition than other private schools since they don't pay teachers a living wage. Why that would draw non-vaxers? Beats me.</p> <p>Waldorf School of the Peninsula is where my friend's daughter went back in the 90s. 18 PBEs for 21 not-vaxed is actually quite a high ratio. The overall stats in Marin County are 6% exemptions for 18% non-vaxed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284585&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rFSNxzUPdec6rhudVDjRbFRm-tbdSUnNuVoHqsD9PLk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284585">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284586" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423575726"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You asked me to “Name one vaccine on the childhood schedule that has not been studied and reported on beyond the clinical trials prior to release.” </p></blockquote> <p>Yep, and you responded by naming a vaccine that is <b>no longer</b> on the market <b>because</b> of post-release monitoring and study. Do you not see how that completely fails to support your point?<br /> You go on to say you're not familiar enough with the current vaccine schedule to make a judgement about all vaccines on the list, but you nevertheless continue to express a vague opinion that not all of them have been sufficiently studied, without providing a shred of supportive evidence. </p> <p>Truly, if extensive safety and efficacy testing before release, combined with broader, population-level monitoring and reporting after release, still fails to instill trust in the system, I don't think anything will. There is no purity in capitalism. We can only follow the science. Ignoring piles of scientific evidence simply because they involve a product that is commercially produced is asinine to the extreme--moreover, it's completely unsustainable if you live any semblance of a modern life. Conveniently, though, most people don't apply this level of precautionary principal to EVERY product. It's just vaccines that they've chosen to warp into some sort of boogeyman.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284586&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_fHsQeSjtZVOA_Znvw20g8C_esiPEtvJ5IWl8E_Xn2M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284586">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284587" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423577651"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>you responded by naming a vaccine that is no longer on the market because of post-release monitoring and study. Do you not see how that completely fails to support your point?</p></blockquote> <p>The rotovirus vaccine is currently on the recommended schedule. Claiming it's not longer on the schedule because it was pulled and reformulated to be safer seems a stretch to me. But you're welcome anyway.</p> <blockquote><p>you nevertheless continue to express a vague opinion that not all of them have been sufficiently studied, without providing a shred of supportive evidence.</p></blockquote> <p>No, I have not said that. Let me spell out more precisely what I'm saying. </p> <p><i>I </i><i>have not studied the research sufficiently to be convinced for all vaccines. Based on the past history of the pharmaceutical industry and my opinion that they have "captured" their regulatory agency, I would not trust the general guidelines that the government provides without doing such research myself. Thus I do not blame parents for not trusting them and not following the recommendations put out by the industry without question or hesitation. </i></p> <p>I think this is a shame because vaccines like measles and whooping cough are well worth the risk IMO and because I think not vaccinating has been a factor leading to the outbreaks of those diseases we have had in the US. Like Ms. Williamson, I blame the professional medical organizations, both private profit-making firms and government agencies for being so untrustworthy that enough parents are choosing not to vaccinate their children for those diseases that we end up having outbreaks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284587&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9xph9Zbx1E9qxDd_ZjDWofh2fQfCcAErZV8UtXDbfPk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Beth (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284587">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284588" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423578145"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The rotovirus vaccine is currently on the recommended schedule. Claiming it’s not longer on the schedule because it was pulled and reformulated to be safer seems a stretch to me. But you’re welcome anyway.</p></blockquote> <p>No, that's not even how it went down. It wasn't re-formulated at all. Rotashield was the vaccine withdrawn after post-marketing surveillance suggested an increased risk of intussusception. After ward, a completely different vaccine was introduced, Rotateq and is still available along with Rotarix.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284588&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cEGOCSRGqjU2EZo-Y31F5XrcD9bpiglQINGXCtg1N4I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Science Mom (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284588">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284589" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423578501"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, and Goodyear is just *begging* for another Hindenburg-like disaster, because blimps still exist, amirite?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284589&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yzDPgSt0-AQifd_0P3nxeYL1liv0LxiDQRwEwxnOSLs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284589">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284590" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423579422"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I don’t know why people are obsessing over the percentage of personal belief exemptions as opposed to the actual number of kindergarteners missing the MMR vaccine.</p></blockquote> <p>I just didn't feel like fooling around with it further, given what a clumsy tool Excel is for the job. Conditional admission also seems as though it's in the expectation of meeting the immunization requirements in short order.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284590&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SzplIvs5X_B4erV3Y1rqBxIUP50mkP3-sE0AiGBPiu4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284590">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284591" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423579509"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Nirvana fallacy. If a vaccine was ever withdrawn because of a subtle risk that could only be picked up with extensive post-marketing monitoring, every vaccine is automatically more risky than the well-documented and high risks of the diseases themselves.</p> <p>Science is flawed because it's constantly examining itself and striving to improve. Alt-med is perfect because it never changes.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284591&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i7c-Zm_3Rqp_2je4lbQlwmHiSZp6_MnzYj3-A64ITz8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Roadstergal (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284591">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284592" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423580570"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Beth, what people are trying to get across, between Orac's OPs, and those engaging with you is that the existing evidence of vaccine safety and efficacy is so vast and comprehensive that such mistrust, however justified in other contexts, is entirely misplaced on the subject of vaccines.</p> <p>As far as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotavirus_vaccine#History">RotaShield goes</a>, one thing you're forgetting is the size of clinical trials versus the size of the eventual treatment population.</p> <p>Based on <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223838/">this paper</a>, the decisive clinical trials leading to approval of RotaShield in the US involved an aggregate of about 8,000 infants - while during the first 9 months of its licensure the vaccine was administered to 600,000 infants. The increased incidence of intussusception per this paper is calculated to be 1 case per 10,000 vaccinations - that is, effectively undetectable in the clinical trial populations (each individual trial's sample population comprised of 1,000-2,500 infants).</p> <p>The CDC has some <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm">slightly different numbers</a> when discussing the topic (for instance, I haven't yet determined where they get their numbers when discussing pre-licensing trials, or how they differ from the clinical trials discussed above), but the conclusion is the same - a statistically and clinically significant increased risk in intussusception was not detectable prior to licensure and the vaccination of an order of magnitude more infants than were vaccinated during the trials.</p> <p>Incidentally, both the Wikipedia article and paper note that in resource-poor countries, where rotavirus symptom relief might be out of financial reach for families and public health systems, the continued use of RotaShield would have been justified, even given the increased risk of intussusception, owing to the demonstrated benefits of the vaccine in reducing the mortality and morbidity of rotavirus.</p> <p>Now, I'm no epidemiologist, but it seems to me that getting a big enough pool of infants (that is, many tens of thousands) in clinical trials to confirm the statistical &amp; clinical significance of adverse effects with a 1 in 10,000 rate of incidence is going to be very difficult (if not impossible).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284592&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bNMmxC6IAIMHc4xT-oAi2PA0s3jWjBfl8BtGhTHCklo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Composer99 (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284592">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284593" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423580599"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The Nirvana fallacy. If a vaccine was ever withdrawn because of a subtle risk that could only be picked up with extensive post-marketing monitoring, every vaccine is automatically more risky than the well-documented and high risks of the diseases themselves.</p></blockquote> <p>Well, in fairness to Beth, not *every* vaccine, just the ones whose benefits haven't been directly and recently verified by disease outbreaks. Apparently we're not allowed to learn anything from the centuries of death and disability caused by the various other vaccine-preventable diseases, because Big Pharma ruins everything.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284593&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FjSUwaQq-Fgh9Jm-zKGqatYW2wn6w6r-N4W1I-_7Un0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284593">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284594" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423581800"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Based on the past history of the pharmaceutical industry and my opinion that they have “captured” their regulatory agency, I would not trust the general guidelines that the government provides without doing such research myself.</p></blockquote> <p>That <a href="https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=site%3Aageofautism.com+agency+capture">reminds me of something</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284594&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L6yKx_q-g5bK1xuFmsJlPHrqLDzFTlBHNnU5HAZTzMo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284594">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284595" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423582572"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> Conditional admission also seems as though it’s in the expectation of meeting the immunization requirements in short order. </p></blockquote> <p>Yes, Narad, that's exactly what conditional entry is. AFAIK, most public schools file their reports in October, before the deadline of mid-November -- I don't think they are required to update student records.</p> <p>Thanks for the info on Merryhill, Sadmar. I'm pretty familiar with the Stratford &amp; Challenger franchises but the Merryhill/Nobel was new to me.</p> <p>FYI, I am quite familiar with Santa Clara County. I was born in San Jose; my father had the Caterpillar franchise in the 1950s, before he and partners started a homebuilding company -- they changed quite a bit of the north county from orchards to subdivisions. Back in the 2000s I did some contract research on Santa Clara county demographics -- esp. k-5 populations. My "feel" is probably out of date, as there's been quite a bit of shift.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284595&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="CKFC1F9X-chSFtmEkCRncOuBhFl7VSwDy4LMBFxiqpE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">LIz Ditz (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284595">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284596" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423582838"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm part of that shift - I was one of those out-of-staters who was ruining everything up in Seattle, and now I'm one of those out-of-staters who is ruining everything down here in NorCal. So just jumping from one antivaccine hotspot to another.</p> <p>And my experiences of both WA and NorCal are the same - pockets of deep blue in oceans of red.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284596&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sT1bHks94RXSqrG22p7nwGWkgasdBX8n56dVf0ALpaQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Roadstergal (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284596">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284597" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423586279"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>In terms of his accurate comments about the fallibility of medicine, Bill Maher should also focus on how mental health therapy is based on very little science and, perhaps as a result, how mental health providers' professional certifications are multiplying faster than rabbits, and how members of their licensing boards in Nebraska, which are supposed to protect the public, self appoint themselves. As Debbie Nathan has illustrated, this business still honors the fraudulent creator of the bogus multiple personality disorder b naming professional awards after her when she should have been prosecuted and been stripped of her license.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284597&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="77kgSlx7tVkMEht6TD2Bya1jp9I1d3wjKmfO95S8PEk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lyndsey Olson (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284597">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284598" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423588172"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Yes, Narad, that’s exactly what conditional entry is. AFAIK, most public schools file their reports in October, before the deadline of mid-November — I don’t think they are required to update student records.</p></blockquote> <p>I had simply misread your comment in a precaffeinated state. I focused on the rates rather than the raw numbers because I was tailoring the response <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/02/09/after-five-years-bill-maher-lets-his-antivaccine-freak-flag-fly-again/#comment-384947">to Mike K</a>, which also called for a city-level view.</p> <p>Without looking back at it, it seems as though PBE tallies might be the simplest proxy for MMR uptake. Since it's trivial (i.e., I'm too lazy to look for them on the Web site), here they are:</p> <p>LOS ANGELES2074<br /> SAN DIEGO1495<br /> ORANGE 1238<br /> SACRAMENTO882<br /> RIVERSIDE842<br /> SAN BERNARDINO714<br /> PLACER439<br /> SANTA CLARA377<br /> VENTURA361<br /> SONOMA 348<br /> SANTA CRUZ328<br /> ALAMEDA314<br /> STANISLAUS284<br /> KERN279<br /> CONTRA COSTA274<br /> MARIN211<br /> SANTA BARBARA184<br /> NEVADA179<br /> FRESNO173<br /> SAN MATEO171<br /> EL DORADO164<br /> SHASTA161<br /> BUTTE160<br /> HUMBOLDT158<br /> SAN LUIS OBISPO155<br /> SAN JOAQUIN124<br /> SAN FRANCISCO117<br /> MONTEREY110<br /> SUTTER108<br /> SOLANO95<br /> TULARE86<br /> YOLO78<br /> MENDOCINO66<br /> NAPA61<br /> MERCED 51<br /> MADERA 44<br /> LAKE 39<br /> CALAVERAS34<br /> TEHAMA 33<br /> TUOLUMNE30<br /> LASSEN27<br /> YUBA27<br /> DEL NORTE25<br /> MARIPOSA23<br /> KINGS22<br /> SISKIYOU21<br /> MONO15</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284598&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pKUwWVlBBhhN_BI7Hs6s1xVAfI9fDwdWKZdc9kPBFXM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284598">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284599" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423594145"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: "Looking at the demographic info, Ferry County – the one you’re talking about – is extremely rural, and there are high levels of poverty as well, which might explain it."</p> <p>Yup, that could be most of it. </p> <p>Back in the mid-1970s some relatives took me to see their property in Colville, which is in the country to the east, Stevens County. They lived in Naches, but had bought property there, which had a house on a well with an outhouse. They rented the pasture to some folks for their horses.</p> <p>We visited the neighbors who kept an eye on the property. The first question the neighbors asked me was what did my husband do.</p> <p>I was seventeen years old, and was just a month shy of starting college. It was a different world to me.</p> <p>Plus I was a bit wary about going to the outhouse after dark. One of the reasons for the trip was to pick the apples on the trees just down the hill from the house. Unfortunately the bears got to them first. Fun times.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284599&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dDGYXAITysXv1VgWfImnQNTphN8fU3WF8eZn64kr77s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284599">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284600" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423595932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hilariously, Anne Dachel posts her own take on Maher and guests @ AoA. She complains because they all say vaccines aren't the very devil.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284600&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0QJgnG595dMwoIo9sOkrjgnZb7DEhgngHHWqGA0Hp94"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Denice Walter (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284600">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284601" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423596566"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Chris:</p> <blockquote><p>Plus I was a bit wary about going to the outhouse after dark. One of the reasons for the trip was to pick the apples on the trees just down the hill from the house. Unfortunately the bears got to them first. Fun times.</p></blockquote> <p>My grandma has an orchard in Husum, just down the road from where I grew up; the old farmhand, Julio, runs it now, and cuts her a check. (My grandpa passed away just before I was born, and it was mostly him that ran it when he was living.) It was mostly pears, but I have fond memories of us kids going out to pick the couple of cherry trees in the summer - grandma would make pies for us afterward.</p> <p>The bears where I grew up, incidentally, were fat and lazy, and pretty much stuck to fallen fruit, along with berries and trout.</p> <p>Funny story about outhouses: we went up to visit an aunt an uncle who lived in Alaska one summer. Outhouse, mile-long driveway, the whole nine yards. I was always a sensible girl and didn't mind going out to the outhouse, but my brother, ironically enough, was afraid of the dark and did not enjoy the experience. My dad used to tease me when I was a kid: "Welp, James, it's gettin' about too darned crowded around here. Think we might hafta move up to Alaska." I took him too serious once and started crying. "Dad, <b>no!</b> I have <b>friends</b> here!" He felt bad then, and told me he was just BSing.</p> <p>We had some family out further east, in particular my great-uncle Frank, who owns a ranch out there. He's a fun old guy, and still alive, too. He had a stroke at age 92, almost a decade ago now, and the doctors said he wouldn't make it. He jumped out of bed a couple days later: "Gotta go bale the hay!" His son, of a woman several decades his junior, my cousin Ole, is now a biochemist now, and lives in Seattle. Brains do run in the family.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284601&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Qn7qIA9STYtMM9cOC8SUFbt9zns86gmRhmdq2VvpKFY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284601">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284602" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423599594"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@JP, that is disturbing. Hay must be cut and allowed to cure before it can be baled, to expect hay to remain in case for days is a very bad sign.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284602&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sobQT3Kuf3gfXRNN74NZfSUyedYFmO1_iqQgppqCj50"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Colonel Tom (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284602">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284603" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423599702"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Colonel Tom:</p> <p>Well, he always had help from relatives, especially my favorite uncle, my Dad's baby brother Tim, in the process. ;) And the story was very slightly hyperbolic, but went approximately just that way.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284603&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w8w9puAL05M6F_GuOCFhaPAgV37qh8DLQUkyHiOazIs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284603">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284604" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423599894"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Old Frank himself, actually, was a master of slightly hyperbolic stories - tall tales, especially about his Air Force days. He has a very dry sense of humor, and I had a hard time telling his truth from his fiction until about age 10. </p> <p>He also used to tease me all the time by calling me Ernestine, for whatever Godforsaken reason. "Frank, my name is <b>Jamie.</b> "Well, Ernestine - that's a good name for a little Scandinavian girl, isn't it?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284604&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bNNnTHz3G79VxCS2dSnLqP7RDYEjxWlr281lGwL4C00"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284604">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284605" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423601217"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>JP: "We had some family out further east, in particular my great-uncle Frank, who owns a ranch out there."</p> <p>I can assume for you "back east" does not go much further than Montana. :-) Actually, for our family it was Colorado (where my great-grandmother was born).</p> <p>Funny how people recall geography. So while I was heading off to Seattle to go to college as a dependent of an Army officer whose official residence was Yakima, my dad retired to Arizona. My younger sisters spent their high school years there, and both ended up living in Tucson.</p> <p>Many years ago hubby and I visited. At one time my younger sister drove us around to various sites, mostly on errands, where she pointed out various things. Then she asked us how we liked "The West." We dryly mentioned we lived west of Arizona (plus dear hubby was originally from a teeny tiny town on the west coast of Vancouver Island).</p> <p>By the way, I never minded outhouses much. I had to use them often while camping, though there was usually a large gaggle of noisy scouts around. Something I thought I would get to do after I met my hubby. It seems I married the only person from British Columbia who hates camping (and yes, his cousins think he is weird).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284605&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6myWTCceJMUSMnSHu4Djajo7FL27GxDy6fp-qe8R2xw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284605">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284606" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423601617"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I can assume for you “back east” does not go much further than Montana. </p></blockquote> <p>Oh, quite a bit closer than that: less than an hour's drive east, in the Panakinic area of "eastern" Washington. :) One fourth of July, Ole rode back with us to our place to see the big forests; we blew up firecrackers Frank had given him in coffee cans. He was a teenager and a bad influence. ;)</p> <p>Until age 20, I'd never even been as far east as Montana, when I took a Greyhound all the way from Olympia, WA out to Vermont, to attend the summer Russian program at Middlebury. I actually found Vermont very pretty, if "cute" pretty, and I was fascinated by the thunderstorms.</p> <p>I've grown quite fond of Michigan, in a way, and consider myself a bit of a Midwesterner now. I do miss the mountains, though, and the nature that just dwarfs you.</p> <p>I adore camping, but I hardly go these days. Sometime I'd like to go up north in Michigan and go camping up there; I've heard it's very pretty.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284606&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SlTVX3jLkGmYaCQSFddPDfYjhkmvZArO-zoCIfN0epM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284606">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284607" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423602575"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Helianthus</p> <blockquote><p>Monsanto spokespeople stated the group was going to shift away from GMO and reinforce on regular stuff in <b>Europa</b>.</p></blockquote> <p>Wow, they really are everywhere. I was unaware of their of interplanetary division. I guess they had to find new markets after they were run out of Europe.</p> <p>I wonder if the people who don't trust "GM Scientists" would trust Ford Scientists instead.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284607&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cUEa2bSqDK6CKDQy1ruqnFBP3NJbP4OmCYGeqyBSETw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Militant Agnostic (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284607">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284608" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423604663"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Roadstergal #143</p> <p>Not a lot of people realize this. I grew up in the Bay Area while my roommate is from Sacramento. She was taught blatant creationism in high school while my biology class spent over a month covering it and reproduction, culminating in an extra credit assignment where we read Jurassic Park and got points for finding the crappy science. </p> <p>Come to think of it, if you drove the length of 580 from San Rafael to Tracy you'd go from one political extreme to the other.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284608&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="s-BxSvOCwv9hs0UHwia7orb-tcQpVyNo51FV_pYaDlo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sian Williams (not verified)</span> on 10 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284608">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284609" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423637241"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p> You asked me to “Name one vaccine on the childhood schedule that has not been studied and reported on beyond the clinical trials prior to release.” I think that one qualifies as insufficiently studied prior to release and being put on the recommended schedule.</p> <p>I think scientific studies were the reason for the withdrawal. I think a biased committee heavily influenced by industry (in 1999, over half the ACIP committee members had conflict of interest statements on file) was what put it on the schedule prior to recognizing such problems. </p></blockquote> <p>I would really be interested if Beth would like to explain to us what "sufficient study" could have detected the intussusception side effect prior to widespread usage, given the rarity of the effect.</p> <p>One could always say that it would have been detected by a trial of the right size, but that rather begs the question: what would have told anyone that THAT size was the right size to detect a side effect, at a time when there was no reason to expect there WAS such a side effect?</p> <p>(And not to pile on, but... NO, one vaccine against rotavirus being replaced by a completely different vaccine against rotavirus is NOT the same thing as 'the vaccine was pulled and reformulated.' That's an error of fact which should make you question all 'facts' you got from that source.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284609&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4fxbhv8GVEgAAeY_vhzOKicZotZfUZl-xxt_VTwqIs8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Antaeus Feldspar (not verified)</span> on 11 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284609">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284610" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423664302"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>here's your placebo controlled vaccine study, NPhysPhd:</p> <p>Incidence of influenza virus infections in children in Hong Kong in a three year randomised placebo-controlled vaccine study, 2009-12 PMID:24825868</p> <p>The placebo was intramuscular saline injection.</p> <p>Now, what was it you wanted to talk about?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284610&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ugLgk-d1GcRbIQR7Hc-igA4qyZpg23xs2ww98TToQpg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 11 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284610">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284611" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423665418"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There's the other side of post-marketing surveillance being able to detect extremely rare adverse events after a vaccine has been approved.</p> <p>Postmarketing surveillance is demonstrably able to detect events that occur with extremely low incidence: one additional case in every 10,000 doses in the case of Rotashield and intussusception, and (IIRC) one additional case in every 100,000 doses with respect to Pandemrix and narcolepsy. If vaccination was causally associated with the development of autism spectrum disorders, with sufficient incidence to drive the observed increase in new diagnoses (i.e., the 'autism epidemic') the surveillance systems in place would have no trouble spotting the linkage.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284611&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OSd8ELXT-DsSZ_P59kZOj_lJjbqsi5q93nunBiAKDxs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JGC (not verified)</span> on 11 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284611">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284612" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423683977"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Great take down of Bill. Every bit as good as anticipated!</p> <p> As I mentioned in a comment on another article, I felt like the Feb 6 episode of 'Real Time with Bill Maher' was his "jump the shark" moment for me. </p> <p>I expect him to go ballistic this week with all the negative science and skeptical dressings down he's been getting. Bill hates to be wrong or challenged. Witness his response to the Ben Affleck/muslim rant several months back.</p> <p>This should be interesting, but I suspect if I continue to watch RT, it will be more from a waiting-for-another-debacle-to-happen point of view, and not being fooled by where I agree with him on other topics.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284612&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="kVOBE4xXLUiOMb3Df8GI-1PzMXHtH6_UqmDzdhXZmWk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NewcoasterMD (not verified)</span> on 11 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284612">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284613" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423784002"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It's shockimg you people can accept the belief that vaccines are totally safe.im not questioning if they work but are they really safe? How many shots is too many? Can we do 150 inoculations without overloading a child? What is the threshold? Has it been studied over 5 rears or 10 years? Or how about the current schedule? Can you cite a study showing what 49 doses does to the epi genome? Do they know? Is it mutagenic carcinogenic? Or is it all about pumping up anti bodies? How does the accumulation of chemicals in vaccines interact with the American diet? Do we know? We don't know! </p> <p>But we do know children have never been sicker in the history of America. When I asked my pediatrician what is causing the increase in chronic childhood diseases. Her eyes glazed over and she said she didn't know probably environmental or genetic. But she was 100% sure it was nothing in the vaccine schedule because peer reviewed science proved it. Oh really you mean the bought and paid for science based on epidemiological studies? As if vaccine science is settled and beyond reproach sanctified and holy. Your a special kind of stupid if you believe that. Corruption is everywhere especially when billions of dollars in revenue are on the line. The #1 reason there is a pro safety ant vax movement is because of 10,s of 1000's of parents who witnessed there child get injured shortly after a series of vaccinations. You arrogant bloggers completely ignore them. That's a major error in judgemt. Then you take the side of flimsy vaccine safety science And billion Dollar drug company scientific research and conclusions? You must be Romney republicans!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284613&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BEmaGT5ELZmHCpMjGl0k6_BNyZ7fVAkXmgk3I6ENhj8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Iliya (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284613">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284614" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423791610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>It’s shockimg you people can accept the belief that vaccines are totally safe.</p></blockquote> <p>Nobody says that vaccines are <b>totally</b> safe. That's a strawman put up, following the Nirvana fallacy, by the anti-vax folks.</p> <blockquote><p>im not questioning if they work but are they really safe? </p></blockquote> <p>Vaccines are known to be two or three orders of magnitude safer than the diseases they prevent. What would you want?</p> <blockquote><p>How many shots is too many? Can we do 150 inoculations without overloading a child? What is the threshold?</p></blockquote> <p>I'm not an expert on on vaccine safety and efficacy, but Paul Offit is. When he was asked a similar question, he reported that 10,000 would not be too many. In other words, the threshhoold exceeds 10,000; 150 is a breeze for neqrly all kids (with standard disclaimers about known do-not-vaccinate-this-kid conditions).</p> <p>Of course, Dr Offit is not qualified, according to the anti-vax crowd, because he <b>is</b> an expert, and earns his living applying his expertise towards developing and improving safe, efficacious vaccines.</p> <blockquote><p>Has it been studied over 5 [y]ears or 10 years? Or how about the current schedule?</p></blockquote> <p>The question is kinda goofy, since we don't know what 'it' is. I assume that 'it' is vaccine safety, which has been studied continuously for over 100 years.</p> <blockquote><p>Can you cite a study showing what 49 doses does to the epi genome? Do they know?</p></blockquote> <p>Since there is no such thing as an 'epi genome', it's pretty hard to study...</p> <blockquote><p>Is it mutagenic carcinogenic?</p></blockquote> <p>Thwere's that mystery 'it' popping up again. This time I can't guess what its antecedent might be.</p> <blockquote><p>Or is it all about pumping up anti bodies?</p></blockquote> <p>Vaccineas (presumptive antecedent again) don't 'pumpup' antibodies; they educate the immune system , much like wanted posters, about 'bad guys' to watch out for.</p> <blockquote><p>How does the accumulation of chemicals in vaccines interact with the American diet? Do we know? We don’t know! </p></blockquote> <p>We do know — the various chemicals in vaccines are swamped by the body's own production and by ingestion of "the Amertican diet".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284614&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BiXQA9Y6wpwAPI8y0ioHtMvMVvZkLj60ELSEu-CN-N4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bill Price (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284614">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284615" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423791840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh Ilya, Ilya, Ilya.<br /> You are spouting off PRATTs (Points Refuted A Thousand Times), strawmanning and JAQing Off. If you had bothered to use the search function, you'd realise how much brown organic matter you're giving off.</p> <blockquote><p>But we do know children have never been sicker in the history of America.</p></blockquote> <p>Firstly, that's a straight up falsity. 100 years ago the percentage of children who died in childhood was far higher. Secondly, bad diet and sedentary lifestyles are far more plausible causes of health problems than vaccines, which are the most thoroughly tested medications around.<br /> I couldn't be arsed to refute the rest of your hogwash.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284615&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="-zOVzeCzp0gjPoPPDLWHZ_rutLKZ1D5Q2G4ugY2tg88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Julian Frost (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284615">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284616" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423795873"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><blockquote> But we do know children have never been sicker in the history of America.</blockquote> <p>Firstly, that’s a straight up falsity. 100 years ago the percentage of children who died in childhood was far higher. </p></blockquote> <p>But that's the point, Julian. Vaccines have allowed the kids to survive the VPDs that would have killed them 100 years ago. Consequently, they are still alive to be sick. ;^þ</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284616&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2u5tnazo0ObM4iGoEgIpfLZK7fXaY14VlMj1v9l-chg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Bill Price (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284616">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284617" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423801145"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Illya</p> <blockquote><p>Or is it all about pumping up anti bodies?</p></blockquote> <p>If by "pumping up anti bodies", you mean "getting the human immune system to produce circulating antibodies which will participate in protecting you against harmful viruses, bacteria and toxins" - you know, like after a real infection -, well yes, it's what it's about.</p> <p>Now, how is this a bad thing?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284617&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ISW3EeSLib6SKSgNxRY31mawy0JKvM91Vm6S7E-v720"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Helianthus (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284617">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284618" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423801968"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>When I asked my pediatrician what is causing the increase in chronic childhood diseases. Her eyes glazed over </p></blockquote> <p>I imagine this happens to Iliya frequently.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284618&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="e7El9A5nytnk1otXyQTuFWfyb7fZ7vZvv3_JA0h7g9M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 12 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284618">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284619" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423803911"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Can you cite a study showing what 49 doses does to the epi genome?</p></blockquote> <p>That's a good one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284619&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8AYtkPZ3f7OAhZex3PVpEvIXCGY3lJ_eLlkp5YqgE8g"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284619">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284620" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423830218"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ok so there is no such thing as the Epi-Genome? SMH And nobody has mentioned anything about the Parents who know there children intimately. Is that not considered relevant?<br /> And yes we are sicker than ever before in our modern day era. Vaccines are not only DANGEROUS they mutate your genes! look it up. AND it says right on the inserts of Vaccines they dont evaluate these long term concerns. Paul Offit the co founder of the Rotovirus Vaccine? Give me a break. BIASED. And what about optimal levels of nutrition? My son WONT be getting any vaccines he will however be getting nutritionally supported through supplementation of KEY nutrients. KNOWN to prevent death from all of these benign diseases you are so worried about. Have we studied what happens if you don"t vaccinate and TRUST life building blocks of nutrition? of course not no money in it for Merck. I will find out and I am confident its SUPERIOR to Aluminum and polysorbate 80 and the damaging influence of Vaccines. So far ahead of you people on Nutrition its scary. I feel sorry you are stuck in the mud of Chemical solutions. Very sad</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284620&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ta_lZDvkV_Eo_aKSbCEIkuNqDEC_ocGZ7TtvV57f05E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284620">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284621" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423830490"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So, when did the "Food Babe" join this discussion?</p> <p>I am constantly amazed that some people can be so delusional - they certainly don't live on the same planet as the rest of us.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284621&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5hfnbv1-kEkf2b0i9D4RtK98qWssuBGk0ihvF0DgTN0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284621">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284622" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423831050"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Have we studied what happens if you don”t vaccinate and TRUST life building blocks of nutrition?</p></blockquote> <p>Yes. You can take a walk in some really old cemeteries to see the results.</p> <p>I feel sorry for your child, but all I ask is that if you do persist in your decision to eschew science and reality, please at least keep the child away from others.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284622&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="xLGv5DPfFGrtCzI0pjzU7Yygu_KqWVPSlS6vkBNKDA4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284622">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284623" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423831342"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Can you cite a study showing what 49 doses does to the epi genome?</p></blockquote> <p>I got 49 problems, but an epi genome ain't one.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284623&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BNXrU26SgIR7OWk8oD1YJa_0u_fM1fa7vi7NK-xOglw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284623">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284624" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423831411"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Pumping up Anit-bodies and totally disregarding the bulk of your immune system is illogical. What about our Gut where 70% of your immune system is? Can somebody cite a study showing what happens to all of the Aluminum and mercury being injected into a child after say 5 or 10years. How does it change the biochemistry of the subject? Are these metals stuck in the body? and for how long? WE DONT KNOW. is the point. Nobody has looked at this. All we can do is look at the population of kids and see how healthy they are. THEY ARE NOT HEALTHY. Sure they don't have measles but they have Asthma, They don't have polio they have ADHD or ALLERGIES. They don't have Whooping Cough they have Autoimmune diseases.&lt;--------directly caused by TOO MANY antibodies circulating in the Blood thanks to Vaccines. Confusing the immune system. Do you see what I see? or are you unable to analyze the correlations?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284624&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gk9vOgqAJcnmAuaEPcr2GrRetK-yEhhQCk-3l7KJadw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284624">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284625" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423831695"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>My son WONT be getting any vaccines he will however be getting nutritionally supported through supplementation of KEY nutrients. KNOWN to prevent death from all of these benign diseases you are so worried about</p></blockquote> <p>If the DISEASES we're so worried about are indeed BENIGN, why would you need KEY nutrients KNOWN to prevent death from them?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284625&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ot9MMwVU1vfBTvGH3OKY6bwCl8koyDuhUiwGUHFQGJY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284625">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284626" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423831986"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Seriously, Ilya. All the answers to your questions are readily available--they have been asked and answered by people who really truly understand physiology, immunology, epidemiology, virology, bacteriology and chemistry (and all the subspecialties within those fields). </p> <p>When you say 'WE DON'T KNOW' you are speaking for a subset of people that clearly includes you, but does not apply to the people who either are experts themselves or who took the time and effort to understand what the experts have determined.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284626&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Mo4eXlfn83yyiiRKlPwp9lwVn1GnS9cd6MJhL4olZj0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284626">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284627" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832211"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You know that Science progresses 1 funeral at a time right? by the time you folks get to where I am it will be too late. not only for you but any offspring you have. Vaccines will be thrown into the Dustbin of history. When? When a generational population change takes over. Until then you are stuck with Vaccines Drugs and Surgeries. sounds primative</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284627&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tpB5UPbtZVHQOarS0OMuTMmnij0Y0UkUsjPq9IXdlyM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284627">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284628" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Jen if we DO know then cite a study proving it....you can't you simply lean on Authority as your proof.</p> <p>Authority is not Truth......Truth is Authority</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284628&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BAlCIXHVhWGI0ugzAF3JD3-YuSIDZiaGUJJxi8hHCOI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284628">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284629" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832348"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>iliya, I believe the Communists said the same thing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284629&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vnZZzdQQFkaWLhl5dlZeB1o7DYZhR2-FNBMeLL_VSi0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284629">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284630" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832422"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Correction:<br /> iliya: That's what Communists have been saying about capitalism. For the last century. Don't claim vindication in the future, vindicate yourself <em>now</em>, and show us the evidence.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284630&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TYdVC9_r-6Ra52a0hCB6f0lkKEhBCvlO4TTv9GJN-TY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284630">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284631" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832742"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So weird how people like Bill Maher and others criticize medicine, are so skeptical, etc. - but then they express the totally uninformed opinions they dreamed up or they got from some other uninformed person!<br /> They point out times the opinions of doctors, backed by medical research, have been wrong.<br /> So if the opinions of these doctors have been wrong so often, what chance is there that Bill Maher is right?<br /> Does he think a Muse hovers over him, to channel wisdom to him?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284631&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GXInMrAtC_z-SwV3_B5TgYTNP0mnmB9feCjreqDUBj0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284631">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284632" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423832841"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What about our Gut where 70% of your immune system is?</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, this should be good. Do tell us how the gut helps with respiratory infections like: measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, pertussis, haemophilus influenzae type B, influenza, diphtheria, pneumococcal disease, meningococcal disease, streptococcus pneumoniae? Or for infections that occur via contact with blood or mucosal membranes, like hepatitis B or tetanus?</p> <p>I'll be back with the popcorn. Take your time.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284632&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TKIf0iQP_dFtn3UNVI64oBPkXoR4K_MyDZblBBiDtIA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284632">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284633" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833030"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Laura:<br /> They also seem to think that if the doctors are wrong, they must be right. It never occurs to them that a third option exists.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284633&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="nXiXgjEqD0dMIdNKOpONgaysigz9RFQkKjtyZs9JWR4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284633">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284634" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833055"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I have spent a lot of time on this decision and I am distilling it down to its most important points. YOU however can look into ti yourself I am merely exposing you to what our side thinks and knows to be true. I am not getting into prove it battle. the information is out there but if you already vaccinated your kids you are biased and wont be able to objectively look at all of the data. When you read a person is a quack? thats code for this doctor is threatening the medical establishment we better make sure he has no credibility. If I were you I would begin to consider these quacks in your understanding. </p> <p>Drug companies are like high school boyfriends there much more concerned about getting inside you than being effective once there in their.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284634&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="374oYTlQEENZtBzF4aCiYZKQcsoL7Atorx6F1u1alBc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284634">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284635" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833065"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Sure they don’t have measles but they have Asthma, They don’t have polio they have ADHD or ALLERGIES</i></p> <p>I usually don't bother to respond to these sorts of breathless rants (especially when accompanied by excessive and/'or inappropriate use of capitalization), since there's not even enough factual content to refute. But I just had to remark on the truly above-and-beyond level of stupidity revealed in the above quote. <i>Allergies</i> are worse than <i>polio?</i> <i><b>Seriously?!</b></i> It genuinely terrifies me that someone with that level of mental disfunction has custody of a child.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284635&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NDkUwhLchS9jAascCl_cunuMC3GBqJQeQVR2NDTVbbo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284635">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284636" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833148"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Jen if we DO know then cite a study proving it….you can’t you simply lean on Authority as your proof.</p></blockquote> <p>First, I think it's well established now that you and I are not part of the same 'we' with respect to our understanding of science and medicine.<br /> Secondly, it's facile to ask for "a study proving it". There is not single study that comprehensively addresses the dozens of questions you've peppered us with thus far. Hundreds of studies, completed over decades by hundreds of researchers, have asked and answered these questions. </p> <p>If you truly, earnestly want to learn why we all seem so confident in the safety and efficacy of vaccines, I would be happy to give you some reading material to get you started. However, based on your randomly capitalized and fairly confrontational entry to this discussion, I'm a bit skeptical that fact seeking is your main objective here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284636&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S7kgFZpUGiLHdx3CMOU4ti_gYIOcw-vp_pWmMVwAaKY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284636">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284637" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833203"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>When you read a person is a quack? thats code for this doctor is threatening the medical establishment we better make sure he has no credibility.</p></blockquote> <p>Ummm, no, that's code for "someone who is promoting unproven or disproven treatments."</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284637&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8-adhBhZxc8gdYZ9TBFseSzGtfFNOVSN4tlR-OBKJGc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284637">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284638" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833208"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>iliya, why aren't you providing us the evidence yourself? Don't you want to protect the health of our children? Do you simply not care enough about them to tell us the truth?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284638&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7-C8SS8IL4dBqg_snfwJwcTcKOHqfWhfqFMiTSdow-o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284638">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284639" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833273"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Drug companies are like high school boyfriends there much more concerned about getting inside you than being effective once there in their.</p></blockquote> <p>Way to take a dump on those scientists, <i>with families of their own</i>, who have dedicated their lives to improving public health. Drug companies are not some abstract, faceless behemoths, you uncaring, callow clod. They are made up of people who have mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, sons, daughters, brothers, cousins. They have friends. Do you really think that they, universally, put their own profit above the health of those they love? Really? What a sad, sad world you live in. I pity you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284639&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tm1za0TTDh2q76X4N3w5idCUumcBQz_Qobq__zfmLYQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284639">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284640" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423833657"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Todd W. - not to mention the homonym double-fail at the end there (Or is it their? Or they're?) I suppose its a petty thing to bring up, but just looking at it is giving me a migraine. And yet, I can't seem to look away...it's like a train wreck.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284640&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="agJCatKo7HXA-YvzsPXnnT0NzIC2lNX1Qx6dJ9x_YuQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284640">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284641" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423834869"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Sure they don’t have measles but they have Asthma,</p></blockquote> <p>My twin uncles died in status asthmaticus in their childhood in the 1940's. If they had been born 50 years later, they would be alive, with asthma. Perhaps that's why there are more children alive now with asthma.</p> <blockquote><p>They don’t have polio they have ADHD or ALLERGIES. </p></blockquote> <p>I received the Salk vaccine. I didn't get polio. I did get allergies (hay fever). given my family history, they were inevitable. Ask me which I would prefer - sneezing and watery eyes in springtime or years in an iron lung.</p> <blockquote><p>They don’t have Whooping Cough they have Autoimmune diseases.</p></blockquote> <p>What autoimmune diseases? I keep hearing this claim, how about some detail?</p> <blockquote><p>&lt;——–directly caused by TOO MANY antibodies circulating in the Blood thanks to Vaccines. Confusing the immune system. </p></blockquote> <p>If your immune system works like your brain appears to, no wonder it's confused. </p> <blockquote><p>Do you see what I see?</p></blockquote> <p>No, I don't indulge in hallucinogens.</p> <blockquote><p> or are you unable to analyze the correlations?</p></blockquote> <p>Well, there goes another irony meter.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284641&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="lvW9zmyophrgeypUVGMxrZpzACCWMW4niUo8_YZ7x-k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">TBruce (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284641">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284642" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423835392"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am not a good writer as you can see. I would love to share what I have found but no pro vax people want to look at it just protect there beliefs. Sure Drug companies have good people but they are researching the wrong stuff there is no research on nutrition at all. Why is that? simple you cannot patent a vitamin so we are left with chemicals from Drug companies that don't work in harmony with the body and always cause side effects. There are 100% safe natural solutions available. But they wont make it into the JAMA no way.... huge Threat to drug companies. I am sure you can see that. As for gut bacteria they are now finding out that if you have an imbalance of bacteria and a deficiency of good bacteria flora it actually turns off parts of the immune system.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284642&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fte8WMS0N_h7sJiiygW3UwGx1R6JQn-OoO_uOU-IPUc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284642">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284643" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423835491"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> Have we studied what happens if you don”t vaccinate and TRUST life building blocks of nutrition?<br /> Yes. You can take a walk in some really old cemeteries to see the results.</i><br /> They just didn't TRUST hard enough.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284643&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GyDMY0XF0X5mb1c1KQrwHU0dhPxqWXOeNcWv_I_6h_o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284643">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284644" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423836243"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>iliya- Do you have any evidence for your claims? Let me remind you that infant mortality rates were much higher before vaccines:</p> <p><a href="http://www.hrsa.gov/healthit/images/mchb_infantmortality_pub.pdf">http://www.hrsa.gov/healthit/images/mchb_infantmortality_pub.pdf</a></p> <p>See that? It's called evidence. Without that, you're just yelling uselessly.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284644&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bdvi2WMLep2K7jIrxWYHw7r7yEqVaULsJaL5rcuuPRs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284644">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284645" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423836421"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i> Until then you are stuck with Vaccines Drugs and Surgeries. sounds primitive</i></p> <p>Yes, fruits and nuts are a much more sophisticated approach to healthcare.</p> <p>As a matter of fact, we have studied what happens if you don't vaccinate. We do it over and over again, after every outbreak among unvaccinated populations.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284645&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="oYH-9qwWV9gusdSgZ6yAgKZ9U4qDgu-FjQ9FVgOPZGk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284645">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284646" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423836622"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>By the way, iliya, the native people of Hawaii had plenty of exercise and good nutrition, and neither pollution and modern medicine. How do you think they fared when faced with measles?</p> <p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19633516">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19633516</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284646&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QlqAU7NY5Vn4MScnvcBeTCa485SBKqZRszvgJ8XFVaA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284646">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284647" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423836779"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>There are 100% safe natural solutions available. But they wont make it into the JAMA no way…. </p></blockquote> <p>Solutions for what?? Produced by whom? Are they available completely free of charge? If not, who is profiting off the sale of these 100% safe and natural solutions? Do you understand and accept that even '100% natural' products that have physiological effects can also be harmful and even toxic? 'Natural' by definition does not mean 'safe'. If you believe that it does, let's never go mushrooming together. </p> <blockquote><p>As for gut bacteria they are now finding out that if you have an imbalance of bacteria and a deficiency of good bacteria flora it actually turns off parts of the immune system.</p></blockquote> <p>See, this is just sad to me. Yes, gut microbiota influences immunity. It's a cool, multifaceted and extraordinarily complicated relationship. What's NOT cool is google-educated people who have zero understanding of any of the science behind these findings but nevertheless parade it around as an intelligent sounding factoid. You don't know what you're talking about.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284647&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0_foR6z5qz-rfLmoC4ntCFNPRq7QK1iWXy5K5OmAQ-E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284647">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284648" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423838490"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wonder if Iliya's mind would be completely blown to discover just how much money spent on vitamins and supplements actually goes to Big Pharma. So, go ahead and buy your vitamins and supplements, supporting Big Pharma like the good little sheep you are. [/snark]</p> <p>BTW, still waiting for you to explain how your gut helps prevent respiratory infections.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284648&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uxRz1ZJrTZw99t1T37Bf2oZtqNKtHOKb8zwj9cMKrz4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284648">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284649" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423838631"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>TRUST life building blocks of nutrition</i></p> <p>If you are eating Lego pieces you are doing it wrong.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284649&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bin2dbfw2icHVmFGLuJNsnR6hRWHygRs1da1NSB-Xuw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284649">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284650" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423838759"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1824? Gray really? You do now that measles death rates and complications are because of a Vit A deficiency don't you? You have to figure out who to get these nutritionals from? Call your local Naturopathic Doctor or Chiro and see what they recommend. Of course people are making money, but they are not killing and damaging you in the process like vaccines and Drugs. I have boat loads of evidence. My time is short I am giving you the conclusions way ahead of the evidence I understand that. Its for a reason hopefully you will be rattled. </p> <p>I will share 4 links with you and in each of these links there are embedded links to studies. Now if I hear one of you rip on my source then I know your biased and cannot be helped. and you are hopelessly lost in the medical matrix of MD directed medicine that has not cured SHIT in a long time. Just more drugs and vaccines and surgeries. </p> <p> Here is just a few citations. I can go on and on. </p> <p>Do you think the FDA or CDC is considering these studies? NOPE This is why you can't trust them. Of course all of you do. Not me I am like the silicon valley parents who work at google some of the brightest thinkers in the world. They use independent thinking and concluded that they wont be vaccinating there kids 50% vaccine rate. see article. I am sure they have concluded like me that Vaccines are dangerous and terrifying over the long term for a human body. especially metals like aluminum and other crazy biologicals they inject into babies. Its a crapshoot and all you have to do is look at the sickly kids across this nation to see the ramifications of this. Fortunately my son will be pure and if he gets measles SO WHAT.... 7 days of a rash and flu? Pffff or a lifetime of accumulated vaccine potions? Thank God I know the truth. </p> <p><a href="http://www.wired.com/2015/02/tech-companies-and-vaccines/">http://www.wired.com/2015/02/tech-companies-and-vaccines/</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819810/</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/cdcs-own-data-vaccine-infant-death-link">http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/cdcs-own-data-vaccine-infant-death-link</a><br /><a href="http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/new-autoimmunity-syndrome-linked-aluminum-vaccines">http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/new-autoimmunity-syndrome-linked-alumi…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284650&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FHVWO04VHvzDv0kSpIV_H9972y9vZU3Uf50BhoZznVY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284650">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423838761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>explain how your gut helps prevent respiratory infections</i></p> <p>Eat enough beans, no-one comes close enough to infect you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284651&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9YfhR0kZtcPMzsENGXj5kzgCW04gTQ1ZkPZ5w1UJPXY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284651">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284652" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423840030"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What evidence do you have that Hawaii, one of the most prolific producers of produce on the planet, had a Vitamin A deficiency in 1832? How would that even be possible? I tried looking up "vitamin a deficiency Hawaii" in Google, but all I got were articles on Vitamin <em>D</em> deficiency.</p> <p>Oh, and no sources from people selling vitamin supplements at a larger markup. If you want to play that game, so will I.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284652&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Uf3vgYpjk2sPdaxzNv44XYVtk0ijLs29UXQKva2ajSM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284652">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284653" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423840342"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>hopefully you will be rattled.</p></blockquote> <p>Oh, I am. I really am.<br /> Link #1. The Wired article shows low vaccine rates in silicon valley. Note that the Wired writer doesn't represent that fact as a positive development. Further note that the fact that your "we" apparently includes intelligent people doesn't make your beliefs any truer. </p> <p>Link #2: One 6 year old study speculating on one potential cause of GWS. A controversial diagnosis in and of itself. Alternatively, plugging the 'aluminum vaccine safety' search term into the PubMed search engine gives you many more recent articles that refute that connection. </p> <p>Link #3 -Greenmedinfo article re: SIDS, which helpfully provides a link to the original research, here: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25598306">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25598306</a><br /> Please not the conclusion of that study (again, linked to straight from Greenmedinfo): </p> <blockquote><p>Conclusion: Review of VAERS reports did not identify any new or unexpected safety concerns for Hib vaccines.</p></blockquote> <p>Whoops.</p> <p>Link #4: See response to Link #1. Same answer. Lots of research on this topic that Greenmedinfo doesn't seem to feel the need to link to.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284653&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="3_BuCv6ddMHvEq2dTHm1PrL72oQbBw9LuW5Az7MQv0E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jen Phillips (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284653">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284654" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423840343"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>You do now that measles death rates and complications are because of a Vit A deficiency don’t you?</p></blockquote> <p>I don't know that. How do you know that (and by that, I mean "what compelling peer-reviewed reproduced research is there for that?")</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284654&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="phq6yFmMoLK8_fPZAXkbKjVSlHRUiVkCl_9h8u3kAvo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284654">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284655" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423840471"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ilya,</p> <p>I hope that if your son does get measles, he's not one of the &gt;20% who need to be hospitalized. If he does need to be hospitalized, I hope he makes a full recovery. </p> <p>Do you happen to know what the most common metal in Earth's crust is?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284655&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d3c_LWP60JlfX_Q_OTEbgNuyyorc9NENkI1a_DHPW9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284655">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284656" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423841197"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Vicki</p> <p>Ooh! I know! I know!</p> <p>I hope Orac will excuse me for indulging in a bit of shameless self-promotion: <a href="http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2015/02/demystifying-vaccine-ingredients-aluminum.html">Demystifying Vaccine Ingredients - Aluminum</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284656&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="1YEU0yjBfCUf8MNvTqfNWh7__ZD47kUrmfDqDXGzhRA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Todd W. (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284656">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423842683"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I tried looking up “vitamin a deficiency Hawaii” in Google</i></p> <p>Pre-Captain-Cook staples in Hawai'i were taro (not rich in vitamin A, but not deficient either), fish, and sweet potato, which contains so much it's practically an overdose. But if Iliya's belief system decrees that death from measles is really a form of vitamin-A deficiency, then reality must bow down to dogma.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284657&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="z3W8rmzsXJgMuBDiWQT9QWjS6-Xijan6oldkmZSw-cQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284657">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284658" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423844046"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The only vitamin A deficiency/measles complication I've read about is blindness, and that normally in patients/countries where malnourishment is an issue. Am I missing something?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284658&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="C6GP9HSmEKf67sghcp-eN2yfg51v8HuY4UDSQnte_2k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284658">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423844076"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Todd, thanks for your vaccine ingredient demystification articles.</p> <p>I quoted, um, liberally from one (with link of course), replying to someone on a message board who was adamant about not wanting oodles of formaldehyde flowing through his veins.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284659&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZeOSABmKGVI4uiTQvEBxFl0pItxD7itC_jMHF4asDpI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dangerous Bacon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284659">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284660" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423844279"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What DB said. Is there one on mercury coming out soon?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284660&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dZKCYCyofoXbqbjpWGTfnjJnMXTE9sCE6rtFklZK4xI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">shay (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284660">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423844618"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Not me I am like the silicon valley parents who work at google some of the brightest thinkers in the world. They use independent thinking and concluded that they wont be vaccinating there kids 50% vaccine rate. see article.</p></blockquote> <p>*sees article*</p> <p>"One facility has an overall vaccination rate of 77 percent, and 90 percent got the MMR—straining to reach herd immunity and not quite getting there.<br /></p><blockquote>Three percent</blockquote> <p> of the families there claim a personal belief exemption....</p> <p>"But Google has a simple explanation—a representative chalked it up to old data. 'In 2013-2014, these two childcare facilities had immunization rates of 98 percent and 81 percent,' says a Google spokesperson, emphasizing that immunization is important to the company."</p> <p>Your reading skills appear to be on par with your writing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JlI8AxHZW_iK21GSiKYM-k_OyP2enidAcaUNVBb6d9c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284662" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423846485"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Ok so there is no such thing as the Epi-Genome?</p></blockquote> <p>Are you unicellular?</p> <blockquote><p>SMH</p></blockquote> <p>Much too vigorously, it appears.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284662&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sxElDnKUnBS_NNW90AuLn9fN4Otl5I1bX5_d0m3hI9A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284662">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284663" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423847009"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>After reading this recent thread, I'm reminded of this post called 9 questions and 9 answers. </p> <p><a href="http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/">http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nine-questions-nine-answers/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284663&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="00P2cWnlHH6T04J00a8vgYDnCJZLih8FHDBogW_lgqg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Pragmatist (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284663">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423849843"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I cited a small group of studies there are many more. </p> <p>Remember if Vaccines are as dangerous as our side thinks. How is the Govt going to undue the vaccine program? How is the information going to be circulated if at all? Are they really going to come out and tell everyone publicly? I dont think they can even if they know. It would cause a revolution of upset people. </p> <p>This is exactly why you can't follow the herd. And I applaud Bill Maher for not being 1 sided. </p> <p>Some obervations both this Blog and Sciencebasedmedicne Blog have negative reviews of nutritional supplements? Why is that? </p> <p>Is it because of the same sources you all look at? As if western medicine is the only source for good information?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qljnc_VKehB_caDTuoPaU4fOdxgHHyxginlzhT0ppIc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423851966"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There is no "western" medicine. There is just medicine.</p> <p>Do you really believe they don't practice science-based medicine in Asia, Africa or Australia?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7CrL26BGawPGK1wO5lBAlfDvc6yQhwjsbMtFPsyCFaE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lawrence (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423853247"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Iliya:</p> <p>The most recent story about supplements at Science-Based Medicine was about fraud, specifically that many supplements don't contain what they claim to be providing, and some have undeclared allergens. (I was amused by the brand which had garlic in its "ginseng" pills but not in the ones being sold as garlic.)</p> <p>If you actually think any of these supplements are good for anything, this should concern you: whatever benefits may come from a given supplement would require you to actually take that supplement, not a random mix of other things.</p> <p>A worthless pill that contains something you're allergic to means someone is charging you for the dubious privilege of getting sick and not knowing why.</p> <p>If someone told you that their doctor had charged them a fee for a drug they were allergic to, for a problem they didn't even have, you'd be upset. Is it suddenly okay when it's the Vitamin Shop or Walgreen's, when the bottle says "echinacea" instead of "ibuprofen"?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iTC8Pbkfo6r9gm1m69225mDj4TrG9CcMvIL7BpkRDu4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vicki (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423853461"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Iliya: "My son WONT be getting any vaccines he will however be getting nutritionally supported through supplementation of KEY nutrients. KNOWN to prevent death from all of these benign diseases you are so worried about"</p> <p>Hey, you've had a month to <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/12/29/15-antivaccine-tropes-for-christmas/#comment-381481">answer this question</a>: “So do tell us which supplements would have protected the over thirty people who caught measles by going to Disney.” </p> <p>And I don't mean "protect from blindness", I mean protect them so they should not have gotten measles.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Q4OLV9ldx9EgItYCGAWzIoc4qUcKwW9eRTcMwdhedaQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423858746"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Some obervations both this Blog and Sciencebasedmedicne Blog have negative reviews of nutritional supplements? Why is that?</p> <p>Is it because of the same sources you all look at? As if western medicine is the only source for good information?</p></blockquote> <p>Do you think vitamins were discovered in the Mysterious East or something?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PpsPr8IAjXzw5StDQZr0_UrMQZIZKyAau4yjqvKhkFg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423860377"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Iliya, you're the rube here. You claimed that all the measles deaths in Hawaii were caused by Vitamin A deficiency. I know for a fact that sweet potatoes are a staple food of the islands, and therefore, that explanation is impossible. Tell me, who told you that brazen lie? What was he selling?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6x0mPqVrlFeHP5WlHElA1V9P_87yN8_l1pvCOehEJQ4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gray Falcon (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423870115"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'd suggest Ilya's problem is thinking "As if western medicine is the only source for good information?" is a relevant question. Whatever we decide 'western medicine' means, we can concede that some other source of good information exists — even a source relating to medical issues (having been tempted to joke anyone seeking good information on Aramaic linguistics will indeed find it outside of western medicine...).</p> <p>However, that says nothing about whether Ilya's specific source for information is any good, or entirely full of sh!t, now does it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aKPLK0Wzdzi48qqFwx0G0GvMX03ERT2HGh2fy67zR6M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">sadmar (not verified)</span> on 13 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423909206"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>When I say western medicine I mean MD directed drug company controlled Mafia medicine. Where anything that goes against they're policies is considered psuedoo-science and quackery. like Naturopathic and chiropractic modalities. Why aren't these 2 licensed doctors in hospital anyway? CONTROL Drug Companies want CONTROL. they want to control you with vaccines as a baby then control you with drugs later in life from the complications of vaccines. Great business model! </p> <p>I am not worried about Measles or any of the listed childhood diseases because I know good nutrition is all my baby needs and his body will do the rest. I have great confidence in the human Body when it is properly nourished. All of the disease help develop the immune system much like a workout. vaccines give you plastic immunity. They build up only one line of your immune system, the antibody system, and put the main immune system (cellular immunity) to sleep. You need both for fully developed immunity. you folks victims of fear mongering because you never looked into the power of nutrition. its not your fault you trusted you MD. </p> <p>MD's have presided over the worst health outcomes in a generation where the only answer to every problem you have is Vaccines drugs and surgeries. Cant you see that? LIE</p> <p>Why can't ND's prescribe intravenous VIT C to patients in a hospital? its being censored thats why. </p> <p>What I am postulating is that there is more than 1 way to build immunity. I have chosen a more holistic &amp; nutritional model of care for our son. This is something I know A LOT about. I have been in the nutrition industry for 17 years and have seen and felt the power of optimal nutrition in my life and observed it in others. I have been trained by scientists and Medical Doctors in Nutrition and Human Performance. as well as clinicians using these protocols. </p> <p>I know for a fact that there are dozens of chronic diseases that can be treated with diet, lifestyle changes and nutritional supplements that are superior to any pharmaceutical drug. For Example Vit D3, Vit C, Probiotics, Omega 3 Fatty Acids, Magnesium, fiber, Selenium, multi-vitamins, DHEA, Echinacea, various mushroom extracts, Grape seed extract, Bioflavonoids, ETC The current science is coming from EPI GENETICS and Nutrition research and there are numerous studies supporting this!</p> <p>So I already have a complete mistrust in the pharmaceutical industry and its approach to disease going into this decision. I do understand that there are many important drug therapies but you have to cherry pick. </p> <p>There are many studies all of over the planet implicating the dangers of vaccines but you and the rest of this mafia only look at CDC FDA JAMA strictly controlled information. They ignore studies all of the time. If it was a court case and we had to decide if vaccines were safe. Vaccines would lose conclusively based on reasonable doubt. There is reasonable doubt about the safety of vaccines. Period! I am sure we can agree on that all we have to do is look at the VAERS database to confirm it. there is doubt about Aluminum injected into babies, there is doubt about Mercury still in the flu shot. </p> <p>I have never proven something dangerous so easily in my life. Just do the research its simply too easy </p> <p>Here is some Vit A studies easily searched </p> <p><a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/91/5/1014">http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/91/5/1014</a></p> <p><a href="http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/966220-treatment">http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/966220-treatment</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hUXRcBYiCfn3qT63LD2bx3X0HdM2kClJ5ROczAPpCX4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">iliya (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423910635"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dear Ilya,</p> <p>I think you've just committed the fallacy of too many adjectives.</p> <p>The more criteria you give a description, the fewer items meet that description.</p> <p>i.e.,<br /> Which drug companies are directed by an M.D.?</p> <p>Which of those have ties to La Cosa Nostra or even organized crime in general?</p> <p>Which of those are government employees?</p> <p>What modifications in the standard of care were made specifically at the request of those drug companies?</p> <p>So what you really refer to as "western medicine" is a totally meaningless confabulation of words that you decided to spew out.</p> <p>As for chronic diseases, I'll give you a choice of three that concern me, epilepsy, scleroderma, and Parkinson's disease. </p> <p>Please cite me a study that shows that any of these can be treated better with dietary changes alone than with prescribed medicines as well.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="k_B4LzAbxD7pk_cKif5Sckt1MohqVxUdh0s_i93l3RA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">squirrelelite (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423911099"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What I am postulating is that there is more than 1 way to build immunity.</p></blockquote> <p>Just to be sure, what do you think "postulating" means?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qOx_iktZJHVPbxGsnaRUoQH0A9CLoUTbAJitqj68KEI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423911738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@iliya</p> <p>I looked at the study you linked to.<br /> Are you claiming this study shows that vitamin A cures measles?<br /> The abstract says:</p> <blockquote><p>vitamin A treatment of children with measles in developing countries has been associated with reductions in morbidity and mortality. The World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) issued a joint statement recommending that vitamin A be administered to all children diagnosed with measles in communities where vitamin A deficiency (serum vitamin A &lt;10 µg/dL) is a recognized problem and where mortality related to measles is ≥1%.</p></blockquote> <p>In other words, for children who are vitamin A deficient, vitamin A supplementation helps them survive measles.<br /> But this sure doesn't sound like vitamin A cures measles.<br /> Is that what you're claiming?<br /> If so, what's the evidence for your claim?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UYi06A9xTwv9sWz4pytzxbYURszHOYhrItB3UuR8Its"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423917654"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Laura,</p> <p>iliya said<br /></p><blockquote>You do now that measles death rates and complications are because of a Vit A deficiency don’t you?</blockquote> <p>I suppose she's partially right - people deficient in vitamin A apparently have a higher rate of complications and death than those who don't. I suspect she means that all measles complications can be traced to vitamin A deficiency, though I don't think she said that outright.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RfYX7sQlHTAxO8hZ_mkU34_vDHCE1MY20OmPzbvjxhg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423918967"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Mephistopheles<br /> "people deficient in vitamin A apparently have a higher rate of complications and death from measles"<br /> That doesn't imply the converse, which would be<br /> "measles death rates and complications are because of a Vit A deficiency?"<br /> Thanks for telling me what Iliya said.<br /> Thinking that "A, therefore B" implies "B, therefore A" is a common cognitive error.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="43tu19G0NYs3T_2Fq6f-uH82EUnmrm8lMPwC97GH1pA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423923366"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>I suspect [Iliya] means that all measles complications can be traced to vitamin A deficiency, though I don’t think she said that outright.</i></p> <p>Comment #200: <i>You do now that measles death rates and complications are because of a Vit A deficiency don’t you? </i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0Gkb_qAGzw7xanemRqMenpG7sgVzS6p3qC4cLuz1-Fo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">herr doktor bimler (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423924209"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>herr doktor bimler - well, yes, that's the line I quoted above that made me think that. However, given iliya's statement <i>I am not a good writer as you can see</i>, I'm trying not to jump to conclusions.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SzbXPfn_QEvPX4_r-oWF9uXqOWOQ4Tm4wOG3dxhecHc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Mephistopheles O&#039;Brien">Mephistopheles… (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284679" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423924276"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I suspect Iliya is Bulgarian, judging by the spelling of his name, hence the not-so-good writing, perhaps.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284679&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MhUNaJo7JU4Tv4xtYawWzqn4heFhHqEvlcZKEChGm4c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284679">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284680" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423924598"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The random Capitalization, however, remains a Complete Mystery.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284680&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rw_jCq8buzRcQQTKWav9AaAsjCC0zKTkpaZFWQF1UuU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JP (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284680">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284681" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423926938"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The current science is coming from EPI GENETICS </p></blockquote> <p>Could you define in your own words what you mean by 'EPI GENETICS'?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284681&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d1D4wjbH-w3MhAE-CGSH-TY3B0z01bkd2mDrQMiPRAk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">AdamG (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284681">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284682" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423932798"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>I am sure we can agree on that all we have to do is look at the VAERS database to confirm it.</p></blockquote> <p>You seem to be sure about a lot of things. This one, of course, is trivially false.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284682&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5H6QeKgBvskgM7MjN1Pzlh0UrJP4BFZVb17ZaNR4e5A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284682">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284683" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423933659"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>iliya,</p> <blockquote><p>MD’s have presided over the worst health outcomes in a generation where the only answer to every problem you have is Vaccines drugs and surgeries. Cant you see that? LIE</p></blockquote> <p>If things are getting worse, how is it that multiple studies find that active life expectancy in the developed world is steadily increasing? For example, <a href="http://www.mortality.org/INdb/2009/05/20/USA_Manton_20082.pdf"> this US study (PDF) found that:</a></p> <blockquote><p>Our results, supporting the hypothesis of morbidity compression, indicate that younger cohorts of elderly persons are living longer in better health.</p></blockquote> <p>Not only are people living longer, but they are living longer without disabilities. The claim that this generation has the worst health outcomes ever does indeed appear to be a LIE.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284683&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VTPx6t1FoNP-bTmym2-EeTE0xrK10LYDFYO23ylbaio"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284683">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284684" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423933709"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A closing link tag does help, sorry.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284684&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_RvP_jQ5AXUXraqr3PIzs5f0iorXtNBGfIyGghMF_Ro"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Krebiozen (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284684">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284685" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423939587"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>What I am postulating is that there is more than 1 way to build immunity. I have chosen a more holistic &amp; nutritional model of care for our son. This is something I know A LOT about.</p></blockquote> <p>Immunology? No, not if you're willing to cough up absurdities such as this:</p> <blockquote><p>All of the disease help develop the immune system much like a workout. vaccines give you plastic immunity. They build up only one line of your immune system, the antibody system, and put <b>the main immune system (cellular immunity)</b> to sleep.</p></blockquote> <p>I'd call this dichotomization "quaint" if it weren't charmless. And <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14761241">completely wrong</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284685&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8K3bPlayAzXc1OULy2P73T8aJBnWZ7dm3tqFh0E9lUc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284685">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284686" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423941719"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Is there any evidence for Iliya's claim that vaccines cause the immune system to become biased towards Th1?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284686&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YJZcvQUgkjsMtXbu227RGYYs8iFA8TsettkOB3bskqQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284686">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284687" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423942817"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Laura</p> <p>Actually, I think Iliya is claiming that vaccines bias towards Th2, or humoral, immunity. She's still wrong, though, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Th1/Th2 dichotomy is oversimplified and outdated; now we have Th1, Th2, Th17, Th22, and Tregs, and that's just the CD4+ T cell subsets. Secondly, whenever you're exposed to an antigen for the first time, regardless of whether its in a vaccine or a pathogen, you have to mount a cellular (Th1) response first - it takes 7 - 14 days to mount an effective antibody response, (that's why the flu shot takes 2 weeks to be protective.) When you encounter the same antigen again later, you will mount a faster antibody response which will partially suppress the cellular response (again, this will happen regardless of whether the primary response was to a vaccine or a pathogen.) The reason humoral immunity suppresses cellular immunity is because the latter is an inflammatory response that can damage your body's own cells, so your immune system "prefers" to use antibodies when possible. </p> <p>I'm afraid its hard to give a "source" for this info, since it's really just a summary of basic immunology. My textbook is Janeway's <i>Immunobiology,</i> but you could probably find the same info if you looked up "immune system" on Wikipedia (and it wouldn't cost you $150!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284687&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rPzwgaZHAZmR6G_BGK22T5iwHwBkv1r0QGi2yHZ3wsk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284687">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284688" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423943180"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Is there any evidence for Iliya’s claim that vaccines cause the immune system to become biased towards Th1?</p></blockquote> <p>Other way around. And no, it <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/03/27/dr-bob-sears-vs-seth-mnookin-measles-out/#comment-186615">doesn't even mean anything</a>.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284688&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TrqJW5ShU1Mu_dVaNyAObiDaC-yqot9_Pu9ka5WOJD4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284688">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284689" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423943269"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#237 Should be "biased towards Th2"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284689&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BwMjmcRGq_bPtUrxOgGszNM2ZSO0QuRG-uJ2uTWXy3w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284689">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284690" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423943536"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Narad I have seen lots in my reading of research about Th1 vs. Th2.<br /> But, I have been reading about allergies, not viruses or vaccines.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284690&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MMxPia-d267Ks7iPX5TyMIVmSFRoSiwuyH-tfL3rLbs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284690">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284691" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423945966"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes, allergies tend to be associated with a Th2 response, especially mast cell activation and IgE antibodies. So, interestingly, are helminth infections, which is why some immunologists believe the increasing prevalence of allergies in developed nations is due to the decreasing prevalence of parasitic infections. </p> <p>It's not that the Th1 or Th2 subsets are <i>never</i> relevant; it's more that sweeping generalizations like Iliya's don't work b/c the role played by Th1/Th2 cells (not to mention the rest of the immune system) varies depending on the disease or condition you're studying. Just to take one example I'm particularly familiar with, malaria and leishmania are both protozoan parasites, but a mixed Th1/Th2 respose is needed to clear malaria infection, while leishmaniasis requires a strong Th1 response.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284691&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a4s9Tnghs65x0-AHhDK3Skk0r1Cbh2xObSayVYfAtCs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284691">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284692" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423964443"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>Secondly, whenever you’re exposed to an antigen for the first time, regardless of whether its in a vaccine or a pathogen, you have to mount a cellular (Th1) response first – it takes 7 – 14 days to mount an effective antibody response, (that’s why the flu shot takes 2 weeks to be protective.)</p></blockquote> <p>Not that these <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3645875/">are independent</a>.</p> <p>The bit about "somewhat surprisingly, inflammasomes, rather than signaling through the viral sensors [<i>sic</i>] RLRs, are required for adaptive immunity against influenza infection" intrigues me, and I would like to subscribe to its newsletter, if you get my drift.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284692&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2XCI58nEng-pCuogq1Wbs4c49F17eFpondfhSyqeS00"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Narad (not verified)</span> on 14 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284692">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284693" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1423993178"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><i>Not that these are independent.</i></p> <p>Very true, and another reason that it drives me up the wall when antivaxers try to prove they've "done their research" by throwing in some Th1/Th2 talk they obviously picked up from some antivax website without having any idea what they're actually talking about. It always makes me nervous when I post anything on immunology because it's so difficult to strike the balance between simplifying enough to get the point across without over-simplifying to the point that you're giving people the wrong idea. </p> <p><i> I would like to subscribe to its newsletter, if you get my drift.</i></p> <p>Um...I feel like I'm missing something important here...*starts quietly panicking*...do you mean you'd like to subscribe to <i>Science?</i></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284693&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t3BtQ8Ky_z9tXJGG9IBPOwD4M4d5sKSaHYgD1jVoaCA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 15 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284693">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284694" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424001982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A review article on whether vaccines might raise the risk of allergies: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181437">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17181437</a></p> <blockquote><p>is immunization in early life a risk factor for promoting allergic diseases? The majority of studies, especially those conducted with more extensive populations, have not found an increased risk, and although 'not finding an increased risk' is not the same as 'the non-existence of any risk at all', it seems that the evidence is tipped in favor of the absence of risk. Conversely, although some surveys have described a protective effect of vaccination, the majority refuted this result. If there is any effect, it is probably a weak one.</p></blockquote> <p>So vaccines are unlikely to be the reason why the prevalence of allergies has increased.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284694&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5mtPuU18GNcZjS0gNhNrETB7PxQV_Gdfvf3XT0KPMHs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Laura (not verified)</span> on 15 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284694">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284695" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424005313"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@ Laura</p> <p>Yep, compared to the unimaginable numbers of microbes kids are exposed to every day, the number of diseases we vaccinate against is just too small to make any real difference in their over-all exposure. If you've got an afternoon to spare and are up for some troll baiting, APV over on the thread entitled " No, the CDC did not just apologize and admit that this year’s flu vaccine doesn’t work" <i>loves</i> to discuss papers showing that vaccines don't increase the incidence of allergies ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1284695&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tzSYynkcBIsuwaGv9uw_8VinUY40qHJMTwtx-M9ae_M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Sarah A (not verified)</span> on 15 Feb 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/3595/feed#comment-1284695">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1284696" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1424006120"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>compared to the unimaginable numbers of microbes kids are exposed to every day, the number of diseases we vaccinate against is just too small to make any real difference in their over-all exposure.</p></blockquote> <p>That would have been my guess. And the research so far tends to confirm that intuition.<br /> Apparently the situation is different with helminths - people do actually have fewer parasitic worms than in much of human history, so that may w