Isis

Isis does SciWo's summer wardrobe

sciencewoman — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:35:02 +0000

Isis does SciWo's summer wardrobe

Two months ago, at the beginning of the summer, I asked Dr. Isis, the goddess of all things domestic and laboratory, for some fashion advice. My problem was one of hot outside-cold inside - which is pretty unappealing when referring to undercooked microwaved food - but also pretty obnoxious when you are talking about frigid offices in sizzling summer weather.

Here's part of what I asked Dr. Isis:

Please, oh goddess of style, recommend a blazer or sweater that will be versatile enough to see me through summer work sessions in a frigid office and impromptu meetings across campus. Ideally this is something that I could hang behind my office door, pull it on as needed, and it would coordinate with almost anything.

The Goddess obligingly responded with suggestions, commentary, and even links to the appropriate web pages, and off I went for some on-line shopping. Below the fold, I'll show you the results on me.

First, I present what I always think of as "The Isis Sweater," but which is really a very lightweight cardigan from Target.com.

Another view is in my Flickr photostream. I originally ordered two of these - one in gray and one in white - but the fabric is very thin and the white one just looked see-through, and, well, cheap. Yes, I know it's a lightweight cardigan for under $20, but apparently I have a problem with being able to see through my sweaters. Who knew? So I returned it with no problems. It took me some time to warm up to the gray cardigan too, mostly because I wasn't sure what to do with the bits than hang down in front. But once I started wearing it, and learned to ignore those extra-long front thingies, I fell in love with this sweater, and I've worn it quite a bit. It's perfect for the chilly afternoons in the office (or for going to see Harry Potter in an overly air conditioned movie theatre). It's small enough to ball up in my bag when I want to take it somewhere, and the wrinkles shake out pretty quickly. (In the picture above, I'd just pulled it out from the bottom of a pile of laundry.) So my final verdict is: Gray is good and certainly worth the $12.58 for which it is currently selling.

Next, the Isis blazer from Ann Taylor Loft.

This blazer is sadly no longer available. I should have bought it in a second (or even third) color while I had the chance. That's how much I love this blazer. I really don't want to say any more about it, because I don't want to give fits to anyone who didn't get one when Isis originally recommended it. (Hint: I don't think the goddess herself has one.)

Finally, while returning the cardigan at Target, I ran across a lovely navy blue, sleeveless shirt with a tie at the bust. It was on clearance (not on the web) and less than $12. I think of this shirt as the Isis shirt, even though she had nothing to do with it. Even though I haven't snapped a picture of it, I think Isis would approve. (Scicurious does anyway.)

But wait, now that Isis has worked her magic on ScienceWoman's wardrobe, has the diva also corrupted ScienceWoman's footwear sensibilities? Stay tuned to find out.

sciencewoman Mon, 07/27/2009 - 09:35

Tags

SciWo says...

Ann Taylor

blazer

cardigan

Very, very nice!!!! I am pleased to have corrupted you and that grey sweater is amazing!! What I love about both of them is that they are so versatile. I could easily see the grey sweater with a pencil skirt of pair of slacks.

Good work, SciWo! I can't wait to see the shoes!

Oooh, I want Isis to do me now! It's like a Science What Not To Wear! And the cardigan and blazer are very cute.

you look Great Science Woman! I've tried on a few sweaters with the hanging down things and felt the same way, but it does look great on you!

I've been buying some "nice" t-shirts that have little extra details around the neck, or a more modern cut. I feel like I'm dressed up but I'm still wearing a $9 T from Ross.

You look great! It really helps your mood to have clothes you feel good in, doesn't it? Then again, I feel pretty good when I wear sweatshirts and sneakers to work, so perhaps there's a hump-shaped function.

I have the same or similar cardigan from Target. I tie the hangy parts at my waist. It looks a bit ballet-sh, but I like it okay.

I love both of them, so professional :) You look great SciWo! Great choices

Around the World in Eighty Shoes - Isis Style!

bioephemera — Sat, 16 May 2009 08:00:36 +0000

Around the World in Eighty Shoes - Isis Style!

I have a feeling that this is what Isis sees when she looks at a map. Only with sexier shoes, of course.

From one of my new favorite blogs - Strange Maps. Thanks to Jake for the find.

bioephemera Sat, 05/16/2009 - 04:00

Tags

I got this from ScienceGoddess too! I totes love it!!!!!

This is great. To me it's closer to 'Around the World in Eighty Boots'!

Not sure completely sure about the choice for New Zealand. Black gumboots might have been a more traditional choice (farmers' workboots, etc.), but the one chosen fits the shape of country better (if you ignore that it's really several islands) as it makes East Cape and and the Bay of Plenty obvious.

Aw, bummer Isis. I should have got on it faster. As you know, blogging's fallen by the wayside for the past week.

I wish that someone would explain why some women - and seemingly a moderately high percentage of women - have an affection, almost an obsession, with ridiculous non-functional shoes. Unfortunately I have learned that asking why a particular woman, or women 'in general' like nonfunctional shoes is one of those forbidden questions which causes women to become angry and insulting. Why I have no idea. (Cue Isis with gratuitous insults!)

I don't get the shoe thing either. I've only ever found one explanation from a (female) friend of mine: "Because shoes always fit, no matter how much weight you gain or loose"

I'm pretty sure England should be a wellington, but I really can't see from here, it's too small!

Rules For Media Coverage of Feminists

thusspakezuska — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:54:30 +0000

Rules For Media Coverage of Feminists

The most excellent Dr. Isis has launched her most excellent Letters to Our Daughters project. Isis tells us

The inspiration for my Letters to Our Daughters Project comes from my hope that we can recreate our family tree here, creating a forum where the mothers and aunts in our fields (which I hope to not limit to physiology, but that's where I'll start because that's who I know) can share their wisdom with us. I think there is a wealth of information among these successful women and I hope to use this forum to share it with young scientists who are yearning for that knowledge.

Today, Isis tells us, Someone has noticed. Isis followed up on this interest from Someone at a public radio program, only to be finally informed that

"If we can't identify you by name on our program, then there really is not enough controversy here for us to do a story on this project."

So what's that all about then?

Isis says she is left feeling squeemy by this encounter and I don't blame her a bit. Some commenters are of the opinion that it can all be chalked up to MSM-syndrome: the mainstream media just doesn't "get" the blogosphere, those old farts who run those tired forms of reporting don't understand us hip young folks. (Never mind there are young reporters and old fart bloggers, including yours truly.) A few other bloggers suspect a ruse, someone trying to suss out Dr. Isis's identity, but Isis claims she verified Someone's identity and was not being Zuckered. (always glad to help try and create a new term, sister Isis!)

Here's my take on this: it has much less to do with the cluelessness of MSM about the bloggysphere, or somebody's desire to unmask Isis in particular, than it does with how MSM generally shapes stories about feminists. Stories involving feminists, by definition, must always be controversial, because feminism and feminists cannot be taken as uncontroversial things.

So herewith I present one possible scenario for a "controversy" that Someone from public radio might have been interested in cooking up for a program piece. Just talking about the nice anonymous blogger who started a project to encourage young women scientists? Not so interesting. Framing it (oh my god, I used that word!) as another chapter of the ongoing campus culture wars? MUCH more interesting! If you're gonna talk about feminazis, there are rules to be followed. Let's get started.

Rule Number 1: Feminists must not be portrayed as doing anything really positive for Humankind, especially women. Feminists are RUINING!!!11!!!1! women's lives by not allowing them all to "choose" full-time wife- and motherhood, unless the women are poor, in which case feminists are ruining poor women's lives by encouraging them to expect social justice instead of just relying on themselves and getting off welfare and going out to work to support their children. (You can play at home! Pick your favorite issue. See if you can explain how, no matter what, feminists are RUINING!!!11!!!1! women's lives.)

Rule Number 2: Feminists should be portrayed as though their real agenda, no matter what they say, is to emasculate Mankind. Feminists may say they are all about equity in the workplace but what they really mean is stealing jobs from men - the very jobs that make men out of the boys! Just ask Christina Hoff Sommers. She's created whole conferences about this very issue, and the media loves her. Next the crafty feminists give those jobs to unqualified women (probably unqualified black or Latina women, to boot). Finally, they force men to go against their natural selves through the imposition of ridiculous workplace rules like no groping your colleagues and other ridiculous restraints on a man's evolved sex drives. You might as well just Bobbitt every man the minute he enters the workplace.

Rule Number 3: You cannot under any circumstances cover anything a feminist is doing without having one or two "experts" to explain why they are evil and wrong. If it's science-related, preferably one of these experts would be Christina Hoff Sommers. She's not a scientist, but no matter - she's positioned herself as the go-to "conservative feminist" on gender and science. If it's academia-related, it would be great to get some commentary from someone like David Horowitz. The two of them can explain to you how any particular feminist is destroying the minds of America's youth and the pillars of the American university tradition as we have known it and, by extension, America itself.

So, my guess is, Someone wanted to create a nice "fair and balanced" public radio program about Dr. Isis's Letters To Our Daughters project. You gotta have controversy in order to be fair and balanced. The controversy is: Isis thinks she's doing something good, but it's not really good for young girls, because it encourages them to think of themselves as victims. Furthermore, pushing young women into careers they don't really want to do - and aren't, by their biology, naturally inclined toward - is bad for them, bad for science, and bad for our country. Feminists only want to do this because they hate men, and they hate our country. Just ask David and Christina. They will explain it to you.

But you can't expect them to swoop down on Dr. Isis's college campus and collect evidence of the nefarious intent of MRU's network of evil feminist malcontents, of which Dr. Isis is most surely just the latest manifestation, if they don't know where it is they are to swoop. The controversy is much less exciting if you can't make a stink on campus. Maybe find a female science student right on MRU who will proclaim, "I don't want any "special help"!"

Yeah, that's how these things are manufactured. I have friends on college campuses who have been the target of stuff like this. Isis, I say, count yourself lucky that Someone flounced off into the night. There are some kinds of attention your project just doesn't need.

thusspakezuska Fri, 05/08/2009 - 14:54

Tags

Those Humorless Feminists

Letters to our Daughters

Science

STEM

I'm a "old fart" as well - card carrying AARP member and all. MSM really really doesn't get the blogosphere. I know more about Dr. Isis by reading her blog than I know about almost all of the MSM - not that I care to know that much at them.

Stories involving feminists, by definition, must always be controversial, because feminism and feminists cannot be taken as uncontroversial things.

Of course. Once something is not controversial, there's no use in having a term for it any more.

When was the last time you saw someone described as an "abolitionist" or "suffragist?"

Zuska, you are so awesome that I have no words for your awesomeness. This post is fantastic.

You know, D.C. is right. I'm in it for the drama.

what volcanista said. Awesome post.

You know, D.C. is right. I'm in it for the drama.

I'd rather not misinterpret that.

Just so I'm not myself misunderstood: I'm looking forward to the day when "feminism" is precisely as controversial as the abolition of slavery -- and therefore, there won't be any useful semantic content to the label "feminist."

Finally, they force men to go against their natural selves through the imposition of ridiculous workplace rules like no groping your colleagues and other ridiculous restraints on a man's evolved sex drives.

Here's a controversy they could print - I once worked at a place where guys were encouraged to be guys by the owner guy and it wasn't just the women who hated it. It created a tense & unproductive vibe. Women & men left, the company lost valuable resources and some sued. It was lose-lose all round. Those 'ridiculous' workplace rules benefit everyone and translate to the bottom line.

No takers? Thought not..

Zuska, I had never considered it this way. Damn it, I hate it when you you're right (as you so frequently are). I am keeping my Naughty Monkeys though.

Ged: "I once worked at a place where guys were encouraged to be guys"

Why do I get the bad feeling that this really means that guys were prodded to act like macho knuckle draggers?

Something to consider: controversy sells, and most radio shows have to show a profit or they'll be canceled. I suspect you'll find the same attitude toward any sort of community advocacy that would interest a radio show.

Especially talk radio (which, as you tacitly assume, is mostly "conservative".) They need people to call in, and they need those people to already know which side of the "controversy" they're going to be on. IMO most people who listen to "talk radio" fantasize about calling in, but don't. But they need to have an opinion to (fantasize about) call(ing) in about. No controversy, no opinion. "Gee, that's nice" just doesn't cut it.

On the subject of talk radio being "conservative", of course! Why would anybody not stuck in the last century bother with radio at all, when there's blogs, BBS, and talkback on most on-line newspapers?

I once worked at a place where guys were encouraged to "be guys"

I think punctuation makes meaning much clearer.

I've never had a problem being a guy, but I've never been big on "being a guy." The distinction is not trivial.

*Applause*

Z, your analysis sounds exactly right to me.

Just so I'm not myself misunderstood: I'm looking forward to the day when "feminism" is precisely as controversial as the abolition of slavery -- and therefore, there won't be any useful semantic content to the label "feminist."

For fuck's sake, dude, no one gives a flying fuck what day you're "looking forward to". How about focusing on current reality, and not pie in the sky bullshit that has about as much likelihood of occurring in our lifetimes as establishing a permanent human colony on fucking Mars?

Amen, Zuska. If the rules you describe were *not* in effect, wouldn't the fact that Dr Isis and her informants *needed to remain anonymous* be good evidence of a controversy, at a career-threatening level?

> "there really is not enough controversy here for us to do a story"

For "controversy" read "screaming catfight"?

Maybe. But I would have thought that if these 'rules' were key to how this thing would play out, that Isis being anonymous and pseudonymous would make the most sense as part of the controversy itself.

I had suggested that this was a fake, but Isis confirms that it is not. I'm now leaning towards clueless person as best explanation. But the Zuska Model of Media Coverage of Feminists seems reasonable, notwithstanding.

How about focusing on current reality

Some people see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?

Put another way, some of us prefer lighting candles to cursing in the darkness.

Some people see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?

Put another way, some of us prefer lighting candles to cursing in the darkness.

Do you have the slightest idea how obnoxiously condescending it is to show up at a feminist blog and start blathering about how fucking great it will be when feminism is obsolete? You are doing the opposite of "lighting candles" if by that you mean "showing the way to a better outcome". Rather, you are insulting women who *are* actually trying to figure out what can be done, slapping them in the face with your male privilege.

Do you have the slightest idea how obnoxiously condescending it is to show up

I bow to the Master.

blathering about how fucking great it will be when feminism is obsolete?

I rather suspect it's about as objectionable as telling a multitude who grew up under Jim Crow about a day when one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

If that's the indictment, I'm proud to plead guilty.

Sorry, DC, you're no Dr. King.

I rather suspect it's about as objectionable as telling a multitude who grew up under Jim Crow about a day when one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!! Yeah, d00d blathering on a feminist blog about how great it's gonna be when feminism is obsolete is totally exactly just like Martin Luther King preaching to his fellow black Americans about ending racism. I am sure all the laydeez are totally inspired by your eloquent d00dly call to action.

PhysioProf, I adore you.

D.C., re. your dreaming: noise with inaction is just noise. Also, hello, wtf insulting. Are you always this oblivious and egotistical?

Sorry, DC, you're no Dr. King.

Damn straight I'm not -- which is why I'm so flattered to be compared to him.

I am a woman, I definitely support women's rights, and I agree with D.C. Sessions that once feminism achieves its goals, we won't need to label anyone as a feminist any more.

D.C., re. your dreaming: noise with inaction is just noise.

Yup. I've made that point a time or two and Boy! Howdy! did it draw incoming.

Oh, and to clarify: I meant the feminist goals of women being accepted as equals and the end of discrimination against women--not the whole "anti-man" agenda many people equate with feminism.

You know, the one thing that has completely chapped my ass about this project and this discussion are the men who have suggested that the feminists are somehow hurting the cause of equality by focusing on the struggles women face. That by ignoring the menz or highlighting how far we still have to go, it reinforces the current disparity. There are a lot of men who seem to think that "Isis is doing it wrongz." Yes, it's lovely to think that there will be time when men and women are truly equal, but it also trivializes the current struggle.

So I am going to basically summarize the reactions to the project:

Women -- "Yay! This is awesome!"
Men, Group 1 -- "This is pretty cool, Isis. Maybe I can learn something too."
Men, Group 2 -- "I have concerns about this project." "What about the men, Isis? You're ruining science by not letting us play."

AS far as I am concerned, Group 2 can bite me.

Damn straight I'm not -- which is why I'm so flattered to be compared to him.

Or which is why you flatter yourself so much by comparing yourself to him? Uh huh.

Zuska, I think you've nailed it. I inwardly cringe every time there's a MSM report on women in the workplace (especially women in science), because of the "balanced" reporting.

That said, I think that Letters to Our Daughters might might fit nicely on "This American Life", which is focused people telling their stories.

Zuska, I think you've nailed it. I inwardly cringe every time there's a MSM report on women in the workplace (especially women in science), because of the "balanced" reporting.

That's setting a meaninglessly low bar for cringeworthiness: the MSM insist on "balanced" reporting of everything, right down to the sale of African seven-year-old girls to HIV-positive creeps looking for the "virgins cure AIDS" treatment [1].

There's so much more work to be done WRT the status of women in the workplace [2] that reference to the MSM treatment of the subject is like reference to the comic-book treatment: there are glimmers here and there of enlightenment, totally drowned out by a flood of just how physioprofing clueless can you be?

[1] Obligatory disclaimer: it has nothing to do with the continent, color, crushing poverty, or bias against the HIV-positive. The practice exists and is still beyond objectionable.
[2] Not to mention everywhere else.

Dude, how fucking stupid are you that you continue to fail to understand that the women discussing this matter neither need nor want your d00dly advice on how they should be doing it? Or is it that you get it, but you are intentionally acting like an asshole?

Either way, get a fucking grip, man.

My general experience is that, in trying to describe how things should or could be, many men miss what is actually happening and opportunities to be real allies.

Forgive my old fart syndrome (OFS). But I have no clue what "MSM-syndrome" or "MSM" is suppose to stand for. Usually in my scientific writing I do as an example: Kiss My Ass (KMA) and then use KMA afterwords throughout. Is this post good enough to make your front page again? Someone, please explain MSM and I'll read the entire article.

Zuska- I think you've nailed it (at least partially- it's still possible this particular Someone was *also* clueless about the bloggysphere; irrespective of generation).

I shudder to think of how a story contrasting Christina Hoff Sommers with the Letters to Our Daughter's project would have gone. I sincerely *hope* our mysterious senior producer wouldn't have sunk that low- but I can see the journalistic incentive for 'controversy', and I think you're right that the very word feminism gives a lazy journalist very handy stock controversy.

CPP- oh go soak your head.
DC Sessions might/might not be clueless, but he's said nothing on this thread which strikes me as anywhere near as batshit whackaloon as you thinking your petty vindictive bullying has any place in a constructive disscussion about feminism and the media.
Go direct your vitriol at someone who deserves it (may I suggest Christina Hoff Sommers after reading Zuska's link?).

Becca: If it was not for Physioprof, who would defend Zuska and the other women? (At least let him think he's helping.)

That's setting a meaninglessly low bar for cringeworthiness: the MSM insist on "balanced" reporting of everything, right down to the sale of African seven-year-old girls to HIV-positive creeps looking for the "virgins cure AIDS" treatment [1].

There's so much more work to be done WRT the status of women in the workplace [2] that reference to the MSM treatment of the subject is like reference to the comic-book treatment: there are glimmers here and there of enlightenment, totally drowned out by a flood of just how physioprofing clueless can you be?

So what exactly are you suggesting? That we shouldn't bother discussing the way the MSM* reports on issues involving women because their reporting on other subjects is equally is bad? Of course there is more work to be done, but Zuska's post was about the treatment of feminist subjects by the MSM, so that's what we're discussing here. At least that's what I'm discussing.

Anyway, I think it's very shortsighted to dismiss the MSM because of its frequently awful reporting on political and social issues. Most of the general public does get their news from TV or newspapers (or information filtered from those sources onto talk shows), so an article in the New York Times or a segment on CNN can certainly influence the opinion of both the public and policymakers. Every time Sommers is quoted in one of these articles it provides legitimacy to her and her arguments.

* Main Stream Media

So what exactly are you suggesting? That we shouldn't bother discussing the way the MSM* reports on issues involving women because their reporting on other subjects is equally is bad? Of course there is more work to be done, but Zuska's post was about the treatment of feminist subjects by the MSM, so that's what we're discussing here. At least that's what I'm discussing.

I read Zuska's post as being about more than the MSM. They screw up so much that you can pick almost anything that they touch as being badly treated.

Women's issues deserve better than to be lumped in with the rest of their stock (and usually trivial) cluelessness, so that's how I read it: as being an instance of setting women up to fail and the public's acceptance of cardboard-cutout stereotyping.

Anyway, I think it's very shortsighted to dismiss the MSM because of its frequently awful reporting on political and social issues.

"Dismiss" as in "cease to take what they say seriously," or "dismiss" as in "pretend that they don't have power?" The first, I would hope any adult did long ago. The latter would be extremely foolish.

However, what I meant above is that I don't cringe at the MSM treatment of nontrivial issues like feminism only because I don't expect them to handle even trivial issues competently. It's like the things that toddlers say: you'd be embarrassed if a teen said them, but from a toddler you can't expect any better.

Comrade PhysioProf:

I read your writings often, although I comment rarely, and once again I read your writings about feminism in general and women's issues in academia specifically and come away with the impression that there is almost no way that I (or most other males) could have a positive interaction with you about these topics of discussion. Your presence in a thread can and does intimidate me into not commenting on the topic at hand, because I feel that if I support the feminist stance on the topic, then you will say something like "women don't need you giving them your male approval"; if I take issue with the feminist stance on the topic, you will take this as evidence that I am anti-feminist/sexist on every issue under the sun and my opinions are not worth addressing; and, if I do neither of those two things and claim to have no particular opinion on the topic, then you will decry me as one of those silent majority males who are damaging the cause of feminism through inaction. I really, really can't think of anything to say on women's issues that won't be met with your contempt, but there must be something, since you yourself are a male who says things about women's issues, and I presume you find your own attitudes towards women acceptable.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to accept that the problem lies with me on this; whereas you are a professor who interacts with women in an academic workplace setting on a frequent basis, are married, and grew up in a society in which the ways men exercised power and privilege were much more overt than they are currently, none of these things are true for me. In sum, I may simply be too immature (I'm 20 and a mere undergraduate) to think broadly and imaginatively enough on feminist issues in order for me to reach a conclusion that somebody such as yourself would find satisfactory. Perhaps this is the case for D.C. Sessions as well, perhaps it is not. But instead of attributing comments that you perceive as off-base to some insidious, malignant strain of male paternalism, isn't it more likely that the person is someone like me, genuinely troubled by all the ways in which women are inhibited and made uncomfortable by men in society, but uncertain as to what attitudes we could hold that women would appreciate? Isn't it possible that people like me are actually afraid that self-described male champions of feminism such as yourself will ridicule our attempts to communicate solidarity with feminism and embarrass us in front of the women we are trying to support? That's definitely the case for me. If I had made the comments that D.C. Sessions posted earlier in the thread (not that I would, I'm more the "cursing the darkness" type) and was met with the responses that you provided, the chances of me ever commenting again on feminist issues on ScienceBlogs would be very slim. You would have created one of those silent majority, implicitly-supporting-the-status-quo males that you so despise.

I know mockery is your style, and at times it can be devastatingly effective, but I think in this specific instance it was unwarranted and poisonous to the environment of this comment thread (to the point that I felt compelled to comment, which takes some doing). I feel that most men (in my age group, at least) want to support women's issues, and maybe it is our fault if we support them inappropriately, but it is definitely your fault if we persist in our ways because you mocked rather than enlightened us. I would appreciate, but am certainly not demanding, a comment, detailing some of the ways in which you explicitly and constructively promote feminism in general and women in academia in particular, and providing some sort of template from which a male such as myself could go about doing the same. If ever there was an easy way to earn respect on the internet, such a comment would be it. If such a comment (or a full-blown post) already exists from you on such a matter I would appreciate direction to it, but perhaps a rehearsal would still be in order. Cheers.

-deatkin

@Peggy: Main Stream Media = MSM. Thanks. You helped an old fart (OF). Tomorrow is mother's day. I wish all those women folk all the best for all you have done. All of us have women in are lives and of those mothers are the most important. Here is to all mothers (consider this a toast), as CPP would say you mothers-all-fucking-rock (MAFR). Be proud to be women. The attachment between mother and child is special. Nothing else compares. Happy Mother Day (HMD).

I would appreciate, but am certainly not demanding, a comment, detailing some of the ways in which you explicitly and constructively promote feminism in general and women in academia in particular, and providing some sort of template from which a male such as myself could go about doing the same.

Don't give women suggestions about what you think they ought to do about institutionalized misogyny. Listen to women when they tell you what to do about institutionalized misogyny.

This shit is not as fucking complicated as dumbshits like you and Sessions try to make it seem. But you obviously like to admire your own endless paragraphs of blithering bullshit.

HAHAHAH! Physio, YOU'RE doing it wrongz! Join the club, man. No cover charge.

deatkin, Feminism 101. go there.

Zuska, yup.

w.p. "(At least let him think he's helping.)"
Nope; not my job to validate him.

deatkin- nicely said.
For the record, CPP regularly makes me feel like my comments are unwelcome, and I'm a girl (last time I checked).

CPP- are you sure your commenting on this thread isn't a reflection of your own internalization of institutionalized misogyny? Cause it sure seems like you believe that feminists having an intelligent discussion about the way the media treats feminism just isn't interesting enough without you injecting in mockery of random clueless d00ds.

jc- yup. Doing it very wrongz indeed.

Don't give women suggestions about what you think they ought to do about institutionalized misogyny. Listen to women when they tell you what to do about institutionalized misogyny.

Or to write it in one sentence: "A man's role in the feminist movement is to follow women's orders without contributing to the discussion." Dude, you sound like the caricature of a feminist as described by Rush Limbaugh.

You know, CPP, you are an ass. Why do you speak for everyone and have the final word? You have once again completely hijacked a thread and totally moved it away from the original post so that is is obscured by your own egotistical roost-ruling attitude.

I would like to go back to the original subject, if I have your permission (I am only a guy, and thereby clueless for all that.)

It looks like what is happening here is that someone wants to take the "Letters to our daughters" project and do the same thing that was done when they bastardized the "Take our daughters to work day" into "Take our kids to work day." That issue was presented as a day off for the girls from school, and the poor boys were being treated unfairly by the system because they were boys. "Reverse sexism," they called it. And now it is a totally meaningless "Take your kids to work day," that is a pre-packaged fun and games day where the kids spend about 2 minutes with the parent and the rest doing crossword puzzles and watching movies.

Except that they can't quite figure the angle from which they can do this, so they are turning it into something else, something more sinister.

Me, I want more women in STEM not because I feel any particular penitence for being male, but because from an economic and societal standpoint, I think that suppressing the desire among young women to go into science and technology is a huge waste of talent when the need for a larger talent pool is growing more and more acute.

If Dr. Isis' project helps redress a waste of talent I am all for it (plus I also believe in the touchy-feely "follow your dream" stuff, but I had better not mention that lest I seem too patronizing.)

Or to write it in one sentence: "A man's role in the feminist movement is to follow women's orders without contributing to the discussion."

Seriously, you take "Stop talking and LISTEN for a minute" as "follow women's orders"? You might want to check your privilege for just a second and consider that perhaps women who have lived with misogyny their entire lives just might know a tad bit more about it than men who have never had to stop and think about it, and that listening might be a way to learn something. Feminism 101, indeed.

CPP -
What are YOU doing about institutionalized misogyny? Besides bellowing and lunging at the other males like a beachmaster defending his patch of sand and his harem?

Remember Eldridge Cleaver's statement: âYou're either part of the solution or you're part of the problemâ? There's another one: "You don't have to teach people how to be human. You have to teach them how to stop being inhuman.â So what are you doing to become part of the solution and start teaching people to become less misogynist?

I didn't totally mind D.C.'s comment, once he explained his point, actually. Telling feminists they need to be more farsighted is really problematic, but I think he clarified that that wasn't what he was saying. I'm not quite sure how it's relevant to point out that feminism is controversial because its goals haven't been realized yet, but it didn't strike me as offensively off-topic.

CPP can be harsh, yes, but often he gets it right. And sometimes it really does help to have an ally call people out instead of that decision (let it slide or say something) always resting with feminist women. And since I think it did kind of sound like D.C. was telling feminists how to do things (even if that wasn't the intended message), that kind of thing should get called out.

If you feel like everything you say is wrong, listen and learn. I'm not telling you to shut up - I'm telling you to listen. Only when you have a strong sense of entitlement to have your voice heard in every single forum might those things sound the same.

(Also, if your comments that are meant to agree with feminists are getting called out as sounding like you are bestowing your manly approval on the little ladies' ideas, maybe you're not wording them as well as you think...)

Anonymous Coward, calling people out on their shit is a way of making them more aware of the impact of their words. It's not an empty gesture. As deatkin was pointing out, a person's words and language can have a strong impact on others. Rape jokes communicate to men that rape is funny and not a serious problem (and maybe even okay). Woman-bashing conversations communally enforce a host of negative ideas. All kinds of comments about and against women can serve to silence any women present and remind them of "their place." These aren't empty words. And even if a person continues to think all that shit to themselves, if they stop vocalizing it, it stops reinforcing other people's prejudices.

We need allies. Feminist women aren't always going to be present in every conversation, and if men start calling each other out on this shit, it might help communicate that it's really NOT okay.

Just don't expect a cookie for it, or pat yourself on the back about it. Do it because it's right and leave it at that. It's just common decency.

CPP - I'm not sure if I'm understanding you.

In real life (rather than on the internet) when feminism or institutionalized mysogny comes up in a discussion, are you saying that I should listen to the perspective of the women and attempt understand their perspective before I attempt to add to the discussion at all? And then, if a male attempts something barbarically stupid, whether or not feminists are present, I should call them on their shit so that they learn that their behavior is no longer acceptable?
I can totally understand that perspective.

Or are you suggesting that I'm not even potentially capable of contributing to the discussion, because I'm a male, and so my job is solely to smile, nod my head, listen, and then mock any male who doesn't understand that our job isn't to contribute anything.
Because the latter just feels wrong to me.

There is an article on the NYT on women bullying.

http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2009/05/10/business/10wom…

Much of it is the same old same old.

I hope this isnât considered hijacking the thread, but the connection is (for those who canât otherwise follow it) from MSM treatment of feminism, to MSM treatment of women being maltreated (the reason there is a need for feminism) to MSM treatment of anyone being maltreated, and back to parental advice on how to deal with being maltreated, and to answer the comment by Isis regarding men who want their own âletters to our sonsâ.

There already are a number of writings that fit in that category for men, the Prince, the Art of War. That is the whole purpose of boot camp in military training. That is the purpose of hazing when you join the military or any other male dominated group. The purpose is to give you the tools and the training to survive in that situation.

When it is kill or be killed, you have to be able and willing to do the killing first in order to survive. That reality is not the âfaultâ of the participants; it is the natural and unavoidable consequence of the system they are âcompetingâ in.

When getting grants becomes more competitive, donât be surprised when the more âcompetitiveâ researchers get the grants, not the most competent. As always, the easiest way to win any âcompetitionâ is to ensure that your opponents donât even try. Bullying is a very effective way of achieving that.

However, what I meant above is that I don't cringe at the MSM treatment of nontrivial issues like feminism only because I don't expect them to handle even trivial issues competently. It's like the things that toddlers say: you'd be embarrassed if a teen said them, but from a toddler you can't expect any better.

Now I understand better what you meant. I disagree though that we should essentially give them a pass. It doesn't make any sense to me to lump together all the bad reporting that is out there and ignore the fact that the MSM can do a good job. There is still excellent investigative reporting (just check the last Pulitzer awarded, for example), there are writers who do a good job covering science news, and often coverage of local events and local politics is quite good. What makes me especially cringe when issues concerning women are covered is that they aren't given the same respect as other news items - for example, articles about women in the workplace are published in the lifestyle section, rather than the business section; and they are often seem to work hard trying to portray women's issues as an "entertaining" catfight and to reinforce gender stereotypes than as news that affects half the population.

volcanista - I "call people out on their shit" when I feel it's necessary. And I was asking Comrade Physio Pfuck what HE had done to solve the problem.

CPP FTW! not listening is what makes me want to punch people.

And Zuska: "Maybe find a female science student right on MRU who will proclaim, "I don't want any "special help"!" " Ohhh that is sooo true. So true it hurts. Don't forget said female will need to also write a whiny editorial to the school newspaper about how she's doing just fine and the rest of us should shut up.

Comrade Physio Phuck! HA HA HA HA.

You're a douche, AC.

Right, AC, and what CPP had just done to help solve the problem was to call certain people on this thread out on their shit. Have you even read the thread?

I think you nailed it, Zuska. After all, the MSM are more than happy to put people on the air in shadow with distorted voices and fake hair and hats. Usually guys who are scared for their family or their career.

What is wrong about putting "Dr. Isis" on the air? Nothing.

What is wrong with hir idea? Nothing.

Peggy- I think that any issue that is near and dear to our hearts is apt to be something where flaws in media coverage stand out like glaring neon lights.
For example, there are precious few cases in the MSM I typically characterize as good science reporting (SB doesn't count as MSM right?). As a microbiologist, everytime I hear reporters mix up viruses and bacteria, I get the urge to subject them to involuntary tattoos with the correct information printed on their arms.

That said, the irritating treatment of "women's issues" you describe is remarkably common. I'm also optimistic enough to be reasonably sure the MSM could do better.
(Although "news that affects half the population!" is not necessarily the way I'd put it. Women's issues really are of interest to everyone - which is part of what makes it silly to have articles about businesswomen only in the lifestyles section).

"what CPP had just done to help solve the problem was to call certain people on this thread out on their shit."
You really think so?
Let's review: what CPP has just done was help PERPETUATE the problem by pretending that his own personal petty vendetta (he and DC have a history) had any fucking value whatsoever compared to a valid discussion of feminism in the media.

When volcanista and Peggy disagreed with DC Sessions they expressed well-reasoned counter positions. This is what intelligent people do; it allows for clarification of the actual point of disagreement which is vastly more likely to lead to problem solving than antisocial tirades.

Look, if you want CPP speaking for YOU, as an individual, that's fine. Personally, I can swear a bluestreak myself if I am so inclined; I don't see how ad hominin logical fallacies help the feminist cause; and I don't buy that CPP is doing this to be an ally (as opposed to using it as an outlet for his own bizarre obsessive feuds).

"Don't give women suggestions about what you think they ought to do about institutionalized misogyny. Listen to women when they tell you what to do about institutionalized misogyny.

This shit is not as fucking complicated as dumbshits like you and Sessions try to make it seem. But you obviously like to admire your own endless paragraphs of blithering bullshit."

I don't talk often, but when I do I talk a lot, because I really want people to come away from the conversation with the meaning I'm trying to give it. Sometimes they're not interested in my meaning and I'm just wasting time, but sometimes they are and I wind up having a very rewarding day. So far, with Comrade PhysioProf, this appears to be an instance of the former, but that could yet change. CPP telling me to listen isn't of much use when I'm already listening. The problem is, nobody's really saying anything. And now I can hardly remember what it is I wish somebody would say.

I don't talk often, but when I do I talk a lot, because I really want people to come away from the conversation with the meaning I'm trying to give it...The problem is, nobody's really saying anything. And now I can hardly remember what it is I wish somebody would say.

Oh little muffin, you had my sympathy for your adorable 20-year old self as you went toe-to-toe with PhysioProf until this very moment. If you're going to interject your penis-bearing self into a feminist discussion and make the claim that noone is saying anything of value to you, then you need much, much more help than Womens Studies 101 can ever provide. You might need to go to feminist kindergarten.

I'm getting flashbacks to the 60 and 70s feminist meetings I attended. And stopped attending after I heard the same shit from them as I heard from the guys in the SDS, BPP and the rest, just with a new label. If I wasn't willing to toe their line, I weasn't radical/feminist enough

Exactly what do you propose to do to eliminate academic misogyny? Kill all the ones who stand between you and the coveted department chair?

Oh little muffin, you had my sympathy for your adorable 20-year old self as you went toe-to-toe with PhysioProf until this very moment. If you're going to interject your penis-bearing self into a feminist discussion and make the claim that noone is saying anything of value to you, then you need much, much more help than Womens Studies 101 can ever provide.

Cut the kid some slack, Isis. He's right: the comments here have diverged from the original topic and have mostly become about personalities. That may be instructive in its way, but filtering the signal from the noise is a bit to demand of a self-confessed neophyte.

Anonymous Coward: "Exactly what do you propose to do to eliminate academic misogyny? Kill all the ones who stand between you and the coveted department chair?"

Actually, what Isis and Zuska and plenty of other feminists are doing is educating people about all the little and not-so-little ways that sexism gets reinforced.

From the Archives: How NOT to Give a Scientific Talk

amillikan — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:40:00 +0000

From the Archives: How NOT to Give a Scientific Talk

Though it seems like I've been with Seed for an eternity, I've actually only been here for three months. I'm pretty excited to be joining some of the ScienceBloggers at ScienceOnline09, but must admit I am a tad nervous about giving a presentation to a whole room of them. That's why I was especially drawn to this recent post by Dr. Isis in which she complains about an awful presentation she was forced to sit through. The antics on the comment thread are quite amusing, per usual. But specifically I was delighted to stumble across this jem, a comment thread on Sciencewoman's August post entitled, "How NOT to Give a Scientific Talk," recommended by commenter "jc."

Here are some of the hilarious suggestions from readers:

Mimi: There was one speaker who inhales between her teeth so it was always a hiss. Another (and I know we all do it here where I live) who kept sucking her teeth. A third had an obnoxious nervous chuckle and his slides being out of order made it worse... noises... eek.

PhysioProf: Apply verbal stress to the least important words in each sentence, and destress the most important. This will leave your audience wondering what the fuck you are talking about, and by the end of the talk they will all hate you with a burning passion.

BrianR: One of the worst talks I saw, the guy used both a laser pointer AND the cursor to follow the bullet points he was reading verbatim ... the laser dot and cursor danced around each other like they were racing to the end of the sentence. I have no idea what he said.

MommyProf: Arrange for someone to call your cell during the presentation. Take the call.

Click here to go to post and full comment thread.

Have any posts from the archives you would like to see discussed on Page 3.14? Email millikan@scienceblogs.com

amillikan Fri, 01/09/2009 - 04:40

Tags

humor

how not to give a scientific talk

Isis

presentation

sciencewoman

An Interview with Dr. Isis from On Becoming a Domestic and Laboratory Goddess

amillikan — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:29:40 +0000

An Interview with Dr. Isis from On Becoming a Domestic and Laboratory Goddess

When Dr. Isis first joined ScienceBlogs, she attracted attention with her bombastic commentary, gravity-defying shoes and a persona that steamrolled the stereotypical image of the safety goggle-wearing white male scientist. Those who oppose her are immediately forced to face their preconceived notions of what it means to be a scientist and acknowledge the gender barriers that exist in the field when she innocently asks, "What's wrong with being an incredibly hot woman and someone who does good science?"

But who is the real Dr. Isis, and what makes her tick? To find out, I ventured to a realm outside the blogosphere--a place where emotion is not limited to one of 12 emoticons and there is no delete key...

Before I spoke with Dr. Isis on the phone, she was skeptical. "You'd better not be the Katic Couric to my Sarah Palin," she warned me in a pre-interview email. But after reassurance that I wasn't interested in "gotcha" journalism, she was ready for her close-up. I caught her just after her family had been tucked into bed and she was about to consume her dinner for the day: One cookie's worth of raw cookie dough. "It's a total domestic goddess food. Plus, it's been a hectic day," she explained, munching away on the other end of the line.

So, Dr, Isis, how did you come up with your goddess pseudonym?

"The Goddess Isis" is the goddess of motherhood and nature in Egyptian mythology. I first learned of Isis when I traveled to Egypt after getting one of my many degrees. I was in school when Mr. Isis and I got married, so we decided to make up for it. It was there that I first saw the statue of the goddess Isis nursing her newborn son Horus and learned of the myth.

How long have you been blogging for?

Well, I've been blogging as Isis since July, but I'd been blogging under my real name for about 6 years.

What inspired you to start blogging?
It became evident to me that there were things that I had to say that I felt were things I wanted other people to hear. A lot of what I wanted to talk about is what it's like to be a woman in academia. Both of my mentors were men, and the women that I interacted with had chosen to not have families. As a grad student, I didn't really have any female role models that were managing work and a family.

But why did you switch from your real identity to Isis?

One of the things that made me become Dr. Isis is that when I was a first year grad student, I had lunch with a visiting scientist and she disclosed that she had four children. I was interested in that. I wanted to know how she managed her life, and do you know what her response was?

No... what?

She said, "I don't. I don't have pictures of my children at work. I don't have their drawings at work. I don't want the first thing my coworkers think of me to be that I am a working mother."

Wow. That seems a bit drastic. What did you think of that?

I bought into it at first. But then when I became pregnant with Little Isis, I felt like it was a load of crap. I realized that being a woman and being a scientist were both parts of my identity, and part of being Dr. Isis and writing as Dr. Isis is about showing other women that it's important to not distance yourself from either thing. Sometimes as a working scientist and mother, you're a pariah in two groups. But I don't think, as women female scientists, we ever have to be ashamed if we choose to be mothers. And I don't think as mothers, we have to be ashamed of the fact that we go to work.

So what kind of work is it that you do when you're not blogging? Are you a working scientist?

I work from 6am-6pm during the work week, but I'm always a scientist. I'm a physiologist at a large research university. But my work is also at home. I try to keep my children from killing themselves or each other. I try to be a good wife and, generally hot, so I buy a lot of shoes. I go to Sephora a lot because I need good waterproof mascara that will last through swim lessons.

Do you think that you --

--And I am, actually, by the way, amazingly hot. You would quake in your shoes if you saw how hot I am.

Haha, I'll have to take your word for that. But what kind of effect does being "incredibly hot" have on the perception others may have of you on the web?

There are people who think that because I talk about shoes, how hot I am, and being a mother, I shouldn't talk about science. But I don't think who you are, either in terms of your, gender, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation, determines your ability to do brilliant science. I can wear Naughty Monkey shoes and get on the cover of Cell at the same time.

Your first week on ScienceBlogs, you were called a "bimbo" by another blogger. What was your reaction to that?

It's very unfortunate when people say things about other people that disparage who they are. We scientists fight all the time, and it can get pretty heated when people disagree about things. But at the end of the day, we can't attack people for who they are. You can attack the data, but as soon as you attack the person, the scientific playing field is no longer equal, and it's no longer inclusive. One of the biggest crises the field of science is facing is the lack of new talent, and if we continue to be exclusionary, we'll continue to be in crisis.

So how do you handle it when people rip on your identity in the blogosphere?

Being disliked by people in the blogosphere is not exactly a surprise to me, because who I am in real life is disliked in academia. The only difference is that in the blogosphere, people are honest. In real life, they face consequences for the things they say, so they inhibit themselves and don't say what they really think. But I don't discourage people from disagreeing with me or saying exactly what they're thinking at any moment. I think it reveals things about our culture that are important to understand.

If you think people say the things online that they are afraid to say in reality but are thinking anyway, there must be some manifestations of this in the real science world. Has your gender ever been a factor in your success in the science world?

My gender has never hindered my success. But my gender has been an issue. There was one time when I was interviewing for a job at a particular level in my career and I was nine months pregnant at the time. And I was massively pregnant. I mean I was hot, and I was still wearing 3-inch heels, but I was hugely pregnant. I mean, I could have had three or four in there.

Anyway, I met with a man and talked about research goals and what I had written, and at the end, this person looked at me, and looked at my stomach and said, "So, are you planning on having any more children, and do you think they will hurt your productivity?" It was the single most startling moment in my career. Because at the time I had never felt judged because of my gender. But at that moment I had a realization that my gender would always be an issue—that in science as a whole, gender would be an issue.

I ran out of the room, crammed my hugely pregnant self into a bathroom and cried for a while. Being pregnant was the time in my life I felt the most beautiful. But in that moment, I was so ashamed of myself and of being pregnant, because I had something to add to science and I felt like it was going to hinder me.

Then I realized that it was only going to be an issue if I let it be an issue—if I allowed someone to make me feel that way. So I went back out, and I told that person in Physioprof language where he could put his job.

I guess being sugar and spice and everything nice has made Dr. Isis one tough cookie... So let's talk about something sweet. What is your idea of the perfect day?

Oh! I know this one. OK, I would wake up, and Mr. Isis would have already made the coffee, and he would bring it in the bed. And the Isis brood would be snuggling around me in little feety pajamas, and I would be sipping my coffee and I would check my email and see that my brilliant work has been accepted to appear on the cover of Science! [The following perfect day activities were indistinguishable because Dr. Isis was talking too fast, but it somehow involved her learning via email that she had also won the Nobel Prize, would be going to a beach and would get to take four weeks off of work] And then I would finish my coffee, get up, make the single most delicious meal you've ever had in your whole life, then get back into bed and snuggle with the Isis family all day, basking in the glow of being on Science. Then I would grab my Coach purse, hop in the car, go shopping and buy 7 pairs of Naughty Monkey shoes and fall asleep with the boxes all around me.

Did you plan out your answer for this before hand?

Not even. I just know what I want.

That's very goddess-like. Now Isis, who is your hero? Do goddesses even have heroes?

You know who is totally my hero? That crazy guy, PhysioProf

What? Why?

Just leave it at that.

Ok, last question: What are your goals in writing for ScienceBlogs? What do you want the end products to be?

I think the end product, in terms of the content, is gonna be what it is. I'm gonna write about the things that I find interesting and that are part of my identity as a scientist and a mother. I'll write about journal articles one day and what kind of diapers I buy the next. But I'm also going to be available. I've been interacting with my wacky readers and I think some of them feel like they don't have access to more senior scientists or that these discussions are acceptable to have with their peers. But the blogosphere completely levels the playing field.

I'm going to engage people, probably occasionally piss them off a little bit, but I'll be transparent in who I am. And feed my own narcissism. And now, I'm not always going to be right, and people aren't always going to agree with me. However, I am always going to be hot.

amillikan Wed, 01/07/2009 - 11:29

Tags

on becoming a domestic and laboratory goddess

Sephora

shoes

wife