solar https://scienceblogs.com/ en Rebecca Otto's Clean Energy Plan for Minnesota https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/09/20/rebecca-ottos-clean-energy-plan-for-minnesota <span>Rebecca Otto&#039;s Clean Energy Plan for Minnesota</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Earlier today, Minnesota Gubernatorial candidate Rebecca Otto released <a href="https://rebeccaotto.com/mnpowered">her energy transition plan</a>. It an ambitious plan that puts together several elements widely considered necessary to make any such plan work, then puts them on steroids to make it work faster. To my knowledge, this is the first major plan to be proposed since the recent dual revelations that a) the world is going to have to act faster than we had previously assumed* and b) the US Federal government will not be helping.</p> <p>Here's the elevator speech version: Minnesota residents get around five thousand dollars cash (over several years), monetary incentives to upgrade all their energy using devices from furnaces to cars, some 80,000 new, high paying jobs, and in the end, the state is essentially fossil fuel free.</p> <p>About half of that fossil fuel free goal comes directly from the plan itself, the other half from the economy and markets passing various tipping points that this plan will hasten. The time scale for the plan is roughly 10 years, but giving the plan a careful reading I suspect some goals will be reached much more quickly. This means that once the plan takes off, Minnesotans will have an incentive to hold their elected officials accountable for holding the course for at least a decade. </p> <p>The central theme of the plan is to use a revenue-neutral carbon price, which is widely seen by experts as the best approach for cleaning up our energy supply. The simple version of the carbon price works like this: Releasing carbon is saddled with a cost, way up (or early) in the supply chain. So you don't pay a gas tax or any kind of energy tax, but somewhere up the line the big players are being charged for producing energy reliant on the release of fossil carbon. They, of course, have the option of producing electricity from wind and solar. </p> <p>The <a href="https://rebeccaotto.com/mnpowered">campaign</a> notes, "Rebecca's Minnesota-Powered Plan doesn't raise taxes a single penny. It levies a carbon price on fossil fuel companies, and pays 100% of the revenue back to Minnesota residents, so we can take charge of our own energy."</p> <p>That money is then distributed to any citizen who wants it (of course they will all want it), evenly, across the board. So, in theory, your cost of living is a little higher if dirty energy producers are in your own personal supply chain, but lower if they are not, and in any event, you are paid off to not care. The point is, if you personally eschew fossil carbon releasing products or energy sources, you get the payoff and someone else is paying for it. That would apply to both individuals and companies, because companies can often make those choices. For example, a school bus company would be more likely to replace an old dirty bus with an electric bus rather than a propane bus. (Just yesterday, an electric bus <a href="https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/proterras-electric-bus-breaks-a-world-record-for-range">set a record</a>, going over 1,000 miles on a single charge! Electricity is some pretty powerful magic.)</p> <p>The Otto plan has a twist. While 75% of the carbon price is distributed evenly and directly to all citizens, 25% is distributed as refundable tax credits intended to cover 30% of the cost of clean energy improvements that use Minnesota companies. This may include solar panels, heat pumps for heating and cooling, insulation, new lighting, etc. New or used electric cars count. So it all goes back to the people, but some of it is directed to support the energy transition for individuals and families. </p> <p>(A "refundable credit" is a tax credit that you still get even if you did not pay enough taxes to use it, so people of any income will be able to access the clean energy benefits.) </p> <p>The conservatively estimated potential cash gain for a typical Minnesota family is laid out in this table from the Otto campaign:</p> <p><a href="/files/gregladen/files/2017/09/householdcarbon.png"><img src="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/files/2017/09/householdcarbon-610x277.png" alt="" width="610" height="277" class="aligncenter size-large wp-image-24536" /></a></p> <p>That is for one year. As the plan matures, a decade down the line, we can assume the carbon price component will diminish, but the household payback for being off fossil fuels will increase, and, guess what? The plant gets to live and your children don't have to live in as much of a dystopian future! </p> <p>The clean energy technologies that will need to be deployed mostly already exist, and most of them can be processed and supplied right here in Minnesota. Indeed installing PV panels and car chargers, or efficient heat pump based furnaces, etc. is the kind of job that can not be outsourced to some other country, because your house is here so the work gets done here! It is estimated that some 80,000 long term high paying jobs will be generated from this infrastructure redo. That will in turn increase revenues to the state and quite likely, will spell surpluses, some of which are likely to be tax rebates or other sorts of payoffs to the citizens of the state.</p> <p>A quick word about the Coal-Car Myth. Some will read about this plan and say, "yeah, but ... if I drive an electric car and stuff, that electricity is even worser because it is made with dirty coal and stuff." (Yes, I make the Coal-Car Mythers sound a bit dull because, at this point, you'd have to be a bit dull to still be thinking this). First, know this: There are circumstances under which burning coal to make electricity to charge a car will be more efficient than running a gasoline car. To conceptualize this, imagine two engineering teams in a competition. One is to make an energy plant using coal, the other is to use an energy plant using only 6 cylinder Ford motors. The winner builds the plant that is more efficient. The team using the thousands of internal combustion engines will lose. Second, know this: It is simply not the case that all of our electricity comes from coal, and every week there is less and less of it coming from coal. Electric cars have the promise, by the way, of outlasting internal combustion cars on average. So, over perhaps half the lifespan of a given electric car, what might have been a tiny increase in efficiency for a small number of electric cars (the rest start out way more than tiny) will become a great efficiency. It is time to switch to electric cars in Minnesota. </p> <p>You can expect opposition to this plan from the likes of the Koch brothers, who are currently spending just shy of a billion dollars a year, that we know of, to keep fossil fuel systems on line and stop the clean energy transition. I asked Rebecca Otto what she expected in terms of push back. She told me, "Investing in clean energy means investing in our communities and taking charge of our own energy, instead of subsidizing big oil. Hence, big oil will be the stumbling block, as this will affect their bottom line over time." </p> <p>I asked Rebecca why this is something that needs to be handled by the states, rather than at the national level. She told me, "The crippling dysfunction in Washington is persistent and we need to act now. Oil companies are spending billions of dollars to rig the system against clean energy solutions. We need to break their stranglehold on our democracy and put people, not oil companies back in charge."</p> <p>She also noted that "we also have a moral imperative to do something and the federal government has become paralyzed by big oil propaganda and political spending. The states could become laboratories to begin to tackle climate change. And whoever does is going to reap the economic benefits from the job creation. These jobs pay 42% higher than the state’s average wage." </p> <p>Economists say the carbon price is the best way to make the energy transition happen. Regular Minnesotans benefit the most, the Minnesota economy benefits, and the environment benefits. This is a good plan. I endorse it. </p> <p>This plan, which you should read all about <a href="https://rebeccaotto.com/mnpowered">here</a>, has also been endorsed by the famous and widely respected meteorologist Paul Douglas, by Bill McKibben of 350.org, St Thomas scientist and energy expert John Abraham, and by climate scientist Michael Mann.</p> <p>I've got more to say about this plan and related topics, so stay tuned.</p> <p>Here's a video of Rebecca Otto discussing energy from the roof of her solar paneled home, with her windmill generating electricity in the background. Apparently, she walks the walk! </p> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gMOPjeNjw8o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe><p> Other posts on the plan:</p> <p><a href="http://getenergysmartnow.com/2017/09/20/powering-minnesota-to-prosperity-through-energy-leadership/">Powering Minnesota to prosperity through energy leadership</a><br /> _________________________________________</p> <p>*You may have seen recent research suggesting that we have more time than previously estimated to get our duck in a row with clean energy. That research was misrepresented in the press. A <a href="http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/opinion/view/379">statement</a> made by one of the authors clarifies: "..to likely meet the Paris goal, emission reductions would need to begin immediately and reach zero in less than 40 years’ time." </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Wed, 09/20/2017 - 04:31</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/green-energy" hreflang="en">Green Energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clean-energy" hreflang="en">Clean Energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/electric-cars" hreflang="en">Electric Cars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/minnesota-climate-plan" hreflang="en">Minnesota Climate Plan</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/rebecca-otto" hreflang="en">Rebecca Otto</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/wind" hreflang="en">wind</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1485743" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1506539255"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A revenue neutral tax plan, that the average household will end up gaining money. Where are the losers?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1485743&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pKn0zOxM7I5FN0pchmsDHjaaGjIu3hbt13UsxNdTCUU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 27 Sep 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1485743">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2017/09/20/rebecca-ottos-clean-energy-plan-for-minnesota%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 20 Sep 2017 08:31:35 +0000 gregladen 34527 at https://scienceblogs.com It is time to stop punching the hippies https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/04/27/it-is-time-to-stop-punching-the-hippies <span>It is time to stop punching the hippies</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Republican line is this: Bring back coal, shut down development, subsidies, any encouragement at all, for solar and wind energy. </p> <p>There is absolutely no logic to this policy, but it is in fact the policy. The reason for it is generally thought to be that the big rich corporations and individuals that control coal and petroleum resources, and that are fully engaged in delivery of those energy sources (and other materials, such as plastic bags made of petroleum) pay off the politicians to support their businesses. And that is true, they do this. But that does not explain why regular voters or grassroots "populist" supporters go along with it. Every other thing about how such folks think and act should turn them away from the big corporate donors. These grass-rooted populs should be putting up their own energy generators and cutting themselves off from the grid, telling Big Electricity to tread no more upon them. But they don't do this. Rather, they go along with the Republican plan to repress the development of renewable independent energy production, which I like to refer to as the making of Freedom Volts, and this is entirely inexplicable.</p> <p>In the broader context it makes sense, in the context in which the populs vote for the faux populist against their own interests. Voting for coal and against solar is voting against one's own interests, by and large, even if you are a coal miner. But then, while we have explained the bone-headed approach to energy that most Republican voters embrace we've only explained one illogical process by saying that it looks and feels like a larger illogical process.</p> <p>The reason the leaders and politicians that run the Republican party vote against the planet and in favor of the Koch Brothers is because the Koch Brothers and their ilk own them.</p> <p>But, the reason the people who support those politicians, against their own interest, act like they do, is a matter of punching hippies. Some call it identity politics. That's a fancy term, "identity politics." Translation: "hippie punching."</p> <p>But recently, it seems like there is a move to stop punching the hippies quite so much. Consider the following quote, from a recent piece in <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-23/republican-cracks-emerging-in-trump-s-coal-heavy-energy-plan">Bloomberg News</a>:</p> <p>“Seventy five percent of Trump supporters like renewables and want to advance renewables. The conversation has changed. You have to have the right message. Talk about energy freedom and choice. The light bulb will go off.”</p> <p>Those words were uttered by Tea Party organizer Debbie Dooley at a recent energy finance conference. </p> <p>Indeed, we are seeing a pro-energy transition shift among the right wing generally. It is not at all clear that the current Republican White House, assuming they ever manage to do something that isn't based on a night time drunken tweet storm by the leader of the free world, will go in one direction or the other on energy, climate change generally, or Paris in particular. Subsidies for renewable energy may be left alone. Promises to renew coal have already been broken. Paris may be kept intact. </p> <p>(Make no mistake: Big oil owns the state department, science is fully under attack and research will be curtailed. These things are very real and very bad. But at the same time, there is strong evidence of waffling on just how much the Trump White House well end up hating on clean energy in the private sector.) </p> <p>Congress is less uncertain. The Republicans in Congress are bigly owned by Big Energy and they will not change their stance at all. Or, more exactly, the only way the hoax huxters in the House and Senate are going to drop their love affair with coal and oil is if they are replaced. </p> <p>I would predict a fight between Congress and the White House over this, but there won't be. The Congress owns the White House and will own the White House until actual arrests are made. (Never wonder again why both the House and Senate investigations of the White House are stalled.) So there won't be any real fighting, just a lot of counter productive and destructive confusion.</p> <p>But long term, the hippie punching is becoming a thing of the past, with respect to energy.</p> <p>Don't worry, though, there are still plenty of reasons to punch the hippies. No one on the right wing need be worried that their favorite past time is going anywhere any time soon. </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Thu, 04/27/2017 - 03:05</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/energy-0" hreflang="en">energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/green-energy" hreflang="en">Green Energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hippie-punching" hreflang="en">Hippie Punching</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/identity-politics" hreflang="en">Identity Politics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/populist" hreflang="en">populist</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/renewable-energy" hreflang="en">renewable energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/tea-party" hreflang="en">tea party</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/wind-power" hreflang="en">wind power</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/policy" hreflang="en">Policy</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481337" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493302029"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>My cynicism is higher than ever these days. I'd bet the Kochs are holding out until they figure they've squeezed the last nickel out of coal then they'll buy up all the major solar / wind / renewables players and start all over. Wouldn't surprise me at all if this was already happening in secret using shell companies that can't be easily traced back to them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481337&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mPfQ6wGtBrGCWs3eM1wdedGVUBmLrb6OpgbVyCuEVag"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Alder (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481337">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481338" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493302285"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Then too there is also this <a href="http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/poll-suggests-american-voters-are-stupid#.WQI-jb2N_1U.twitter">http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/poll-suggests-american-voters…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481338&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6JIBqD1Sx7BHk9gTShP3kkn20Nuamwk5jtFhExwyGz0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Alder (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481338">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481339" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493305623"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I am sure the Kochs are trying to "pump and dump" fossil fuel assets. They want someone else to take the loss on "stranded assets".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481339&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="a8qyCRAGkcAMY2SSFnMRBWl7Wwe-WbhbaNTUYtCVmkQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">David Whitlock (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481339">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481340" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493305932"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Remember, hippies don't punch back.</p> <p>And when they do, everyone complains about those violent drug-addled hippies.</p> <p>'course, when some white dude goes randomly shooting up a school, it's not the fault of WASPs or rightwingers, it's just a single instance, a lone wolf...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481340&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ri_3C5sPdHuFw2tHjFcSOHfzagH2hD2_W8wyCvyx1CY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481340">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481341" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493308944"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#2: When I was teaching geology I would encounter creationist students. At the time, I thought it was primarily a knowledge problem but experience and reading some educational theory and reading comments on internet blogs such as TalkOrigins and Pandasthumb soon disabused me of this notion. The article to for which you provided a link describes behavior and mindset very similar to that of many creationists. I suppose that the GOP is now their party of choice. </p> <p>This does not bode well at all for the future. Even if Trump &amp; the GOP lead the country into complete and obvious disaster, the blame will probably be shifted onto some convenient scapegoat group while the actual perps will tell their followers how great they are while picking their pockets and destroying their future. </p> <p>Is that too cynical? I'm afraid that I'm not.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481341&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FovXqHTHJ_O9Nea3E98rQRyNnsz-zhrp0ukjHp7_2_w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481341">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481342" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493316351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#5 Cynical - not at all :) I think you're right on. The GOP have spent the last 5 decades, and often with the help of "Neville Chamberlains" in the Democratic Party, working to lower the ability of public schools to actually educated children (as opposed to indoctrinate.) Now having mostly accomplished that they have turned to making profits off of the system through charter schools, that for the most part it seems do an even worse job than the public schools.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481342&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L9ZJkaL4DDTAwSLTlV4ffyxxPExtNnvIxEJDmmGHJOs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Alder (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481342">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481343" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493321435"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Nah, keep punching them. I saw at the March for Science, that supporting climate science means advocating for lots of other liberal causes. In what was called a victory for climate justice, Portland pulled investment in Caterpillar, for the crime of selling equipment to Israel. Maybe instead of punching hippies, we should buy some of those bulldozers and use it against the antifa that is violently attacking.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481343&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Iqw9zla0V2jzLL2kG1Se0BV-GOk521l1vtdUUjUa0zw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481343">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481344" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493325274"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hyperbole, fear-mongering, and name-calling, the core of all liberal arguments.</p> <p>Look at what all the subsidies for renewables has got us, scandals and failure.</p> <p>Solyndra, anyone?<br /> Solar frickin roadways?</p> <p>If you want to pour your own money into these kinds of boondoggles, go right ahead. Leave the rest of us out of it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481344&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="QcEl3MwCTVfWenU6TdWd6iQCNvtneyTcGomX85XkLrA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vic (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481344">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="31" id="comment-1481349" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493359653"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Vic: "Hyperbole, fear-mongering, and name-calling, the core of all liberal arguments."</p> <p>That reminds me of another general principle, which, along with the Hippie Punching Assumption (HPA), explains a lot of right wing talk. Accuse your enemies with what you yourself do!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481349&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Keg-fmw0Qaz4x_1Ej56t6UObRRVJmhreoyOtg5dncT0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481349">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/gregladen"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/gregladen" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/HumanEvolutionIcon350-120x120.jpg?itok=Tg7drSR8" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user gregladen" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1481344#comment-1481344" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Vic (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481345" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493329887"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#7: Are you sure about that bulldozer story? Doesn't sound like a big liberal cause to me. A link to the story would be helpful. People have been known to slip bogus stories about lots of things into the media or remove the context to make it seem like something it isn't. I know the American government has on more than a few occasions tried to influence Israel to go easy on certain activities such as building new settlements in territories where it particularly inflames bad feeling. If it happened, maybe it has something to do with that.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481345&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AJlKp5esYecJG9Jc6gtJ5olFu5EsUdKXEkAvLhWZdOA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481345">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481346" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493330849"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Tyvor, the two major divestment causes right now are fossil fuels and Israel. Caterpillar was one of six companies in the vote, so likely one of the others was climate related. The city council just decided to stop investing in all companies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481346&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4wgPFMKILXKSshPDKGDbp0lVOA_BC7cRKZ9GLvzuRJ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481346">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481347" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493331517"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#5: I was an educator for a few decades and I agree that Republicans don't seem eager to encourage teaching the kind of critical thinking skills based on evidence and logic. Skepticism of evolution, climate change, etc. on the basis of misinformation and religion is more their style of criticism. As one anti-critical thinking GOP politician said (I forgot which one): It undermines the authority of parents and the Church. (I wonder which church.) </p> <p>They are also leery of higher education, witness the defunding that has gone on in TX, LA, and other red states. They are much happier about vocational training. Less chance of picking up ideas that might get in the way of corporate plans to make some rich people much richer. </p> <p>From what I've read, charter schools don't seem to be an improvement on public schools in general. They vary much like public schools do. In a way that's good news. It shows that it's not the schools that are the main reason for the mediocre to poor showing of American students. A lot depends on the home and the societal culture.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481347&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9CUEnebVMDHyRodbGAiXOzWUyc-cBej1AU0v3S0_5UA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481347">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481348" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493332646"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#9: Interesting. I'll have to add that to my "look-up" list. I guess if it was a city council decision, it's part of their job to decide such things. Cheer up, though, there are probably a lot of cities in red states putting money into fossil fuels, Israel, bulldozers, etc. The present crop of SUVs &amp; pickup trucks need lots of gas, without Israel, there apparently can't be a Rapture, and a lot of bulldozers will be needed to build The Great Wall and dikes along the low-lying ocean coasts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481348&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Bk7ZbzXWdMxAIgRO8pv2i1W0YQ83qPwNb-r8zCvuDyI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 27 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481348">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481350" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493367812"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sounds like MikeN is straining to make climate science a left wing invention plus a common denominator of BDS and "liberal" political concerns -- with insinuations of anti-semitism to follow as the thread progresses, no doubt. </p> <p>BDS is a tactic. In its broadest sense, it's boycotting; something that's available to left, right, and center. </p> <p>As usual there is so much that is so uninformed and confused about MikeN's thinking that it's hard to know where to begin. I will say this though: a lot of the progressives that he's trying to tar with a broad brush aren't hippies, and they do punch back.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481350&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6G3hAcOHQtFjyy0pC1UIhnw0pzk-XTDm27OojP7zTa0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481350">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481351" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493379333"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#8: Of course, you can put your money into anything you want. Public money is different. I noticed that your post included only one failed alt energy company. Are you under the erroneous impression that most businesses that are started succeed? The fact that there were many alt energy companies that received such government support, but only one made a big splash as a failure indicates to me that most of these companies did not fail. If they had, I'm sure Faux News would have hyped it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481351&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gvRqOBPyrnnIbp4WqC05eBJr4cjqFe43bUvIB6-xNfI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481351">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481352" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493383252"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Look at what all the subsidies for renewables has got us, scandals and failure."</p> <p>Uh, what scandals? What failure??</p> <p>Solyndra? It succeeded and paid back the debt early. However, China were going ahead with their renewables, and the USA hate the idea of renewables (the government and mainstream power structure, anyway). So they lost out to China producing cheap.</p> <p>Just like 90% of other US businesses.</p> <p>Most of whom went under owing money, unlike Solyndra.</p> <p>Meanwhile, what has freemarket conservatism give us? Boom and bust cycles, failure on failure and a neverending stream of scandals...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481352&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hVbB36QmXVhmh8Om5_1eKgxaXPkgU43-7ccI6BsOLls"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481352">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481353" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493390537"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>ObstrApp<br /> 'to follow?' It's already there. BDS is targeting two things: fossil fuels and Israel.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481353&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bDcoWAJRZr354M-K-Ef2M8I2QCxndOHe6-Tc9qi2JwQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481353">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481354" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493392598"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Are you trying to say that BDS is only after two things, nothing more?</p> <p>And how do you know?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481354&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L9Fu2RNTwBpnw9FdhPQmgzWkjpmeAqxRJtRDb3yFFm4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481354">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481355" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493395456"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think he's insidiously trying to imply, in a dog whistle sort of way, that AGW is a plot to take over the world by fascist hippies and is at the root of all evil in the world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481355&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FeWOKBX9ova8yQJshxFIa0geV-ZvYNAnmTmEVXt3BGo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481355">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481356" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493396283"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#16: I knew I should have looked up Solyndra instead of relying on memory. I was in a hurry. Glad you were able to remedy that mistake.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481356&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="E1i4xS6Hiumb8zLJUXY_0pLXkC8pInznR062NVQJupo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481356">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481357" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493401544"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Where are you getting this Solyndra profit from? Wikipedia says the loan program as a whole is in the black, but lists the government recoups 27 million on a 500 million loan, with more potentially to come from lawsuits.<br /> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481357&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="WarnFzKWgkpq0mwJ4_yu6BDg5JsMH9bohZun_pF3xrc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481357">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481358" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493407034"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2017/04/27/it-is-time-to-stop-punching-the-hippies/#comment-647102">Obtreperous Applesauce</a>:<br /> </p><blockquote>I think [MikeN] is insidiously trying to imply, in a dog whistle sort of way, that AGW is a plot to take over the world by fascist hippies and is at the root of all evil in the world.</blockquote> <p>Yeah, possibly the most significant victory for natural resource liquidators and investors following the 1970s was the successful linkage of earth science and political environmentalism, and of environmentalism and liberalism. It wasn't always that way, but the rise of the tobacco public health risk denial industry in the 1990s made that kind of "communications" expertise available for hire on a broad market. The Republican Party was advised to adopt the false-linkage strategy no later than 2002, in the famous Frank Luntz memo to the Bush II political team.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481358&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5SWHWG8kxyYj5eYSo5ls4ITWt_COl9M-bX0Y3jT5D8M"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mal Adapted (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481358">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481359" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493422093"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Wikipedia says the loan program as a whole is in the black"</p> <p>They paid back early.</p> <p>"but lists the government recoups 27 million on a 500 million loan"</p> <p>Above the loan.</p> <p>"with more potentially to come from lawsuits."</p> <p>So when is GM or the bank going to see a lawsuit? It's a good example of how the power structure doesn't want solar. It allows small generation, and that's harder to monopolise and make the monopoly rent from.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481359&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mSIWtYCV6nbkg0Oj-i8f9Zz-tbWDq4KoT2e0LVemSgA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481359">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481360" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493423730"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#22: I'm not sure that the two linkages you mention are entirely false. (1) It is hard to study geology in the broad sense and not be aware of the different ways in which pollution spreads, how slowly soil forms, how nearly impossible it is to clean up groundwater once it's polluted, how earthquakes can be generated by liquids pumped or rapidly inflitrated into the ground, etc. (2) The Republican party, being for many decades the more supportive of big business of the two parties and now without any significant liberal membership has left the environmental field to the liberals. Maximizing corporate profits now seems to be the modern GOP's position on environmental protection.</p> <p>The main problem as I see it is the success of the GOP in making liberal an insult even though much (most I'd say) of what is admirable about the country is a result of liberal ideals and programs. It certainly wasn't due to conservatives that we have child labor laws, 8-hour workdays, federal protection of bank savings, Veteran's benefits, Social Security, Medicare, and the protection of civil rights from Jim Crow laws etc.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481360&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ef3loetKpDhlSc8U7qQUFHaiBGN1ykQ_zyjk4N22a2I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tyvor Winn (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481360">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481361" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493427261"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The Christian Conservatives never got over the fact that the hippies actually stood for the things that the Christian Conservatives claimed that they stood for.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481361&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ITcBojp5A100rJGZSK3-lxEwNIz6HEGV5nFqWK_wj1Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Walt Garage (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481361">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481362" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493430709"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#25<br /> Bloody heck Walt Garage. Where did you get such a notion from? It happens to be very much correct, but rarely seen in print. Thankyou for articulating it.<br /> The hypocrisy has always been very palpable.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481362&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ng8ppiTZhEAAL42H-pGhoobCTeQfV42aiscWv3v2PH0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Li D (not verified)</span> on 28 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481362">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481363" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493450656"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#24 </p> <p>It's a question of understanding how segments of society function, interact and the reality of social cause and effect -- and not making spurious correlations or superficial and poorly expressed observations.</p> <p>For instance a scientist may publicaly defend science if it's under attack, that doesn't mean that the science is in any way pollitical in that sense (I.e., that the methods used incorporate a political platform). People who talk about science and politics horribly botch this, whether intentionally on the one hand or naively on the other.</p> <p>Anything a good climate scientist says can and will be distorted and used against him/her. That is the rhetorical, Machiavellian reality of our political environment. Ignore it at your peril. Be very careful, clear, concise, and canny on this point. </p> <p>Think at least several moves ahead.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481363&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h86ePy_wZASMoEDk1QkfnSFJGKCNQ2fdRbG__66SLn0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481363">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481364" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493454673"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“but lists the government recoups 27 million on a 500 million loan”</p> <p>Above the loan.</p> <p>That's not what recoup means. If you're right, the Wikipedia article needs editing to clarify.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481364&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="fDdHKfawnjT0sU1ScJtTbfyvQn-x5SmeidEOC4sd2nY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481364">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481365" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493455206"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I think Mal has it exactly right by the way. In fact I don't recall ever catching him in a misstep when it comes to metaliteracy.</p> <p>I see the linkages he's talking about as referring to how the appearances of select associations are distorted in order to purposefully conflate them with corrupt underpinnings. The "reasoning" used always boils down to rhetorical manipulations and imputing guilt by association. Nothing more. Just slime. Hippy punching if you will. So keep your dukes up, Tinkerbell.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481365&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uLsPWyK1C6-i9eyQv4_x3MwTg_zBNIOxw-3a6jK3xq0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481365">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481366" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493459614"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Parties should,when taking action to address climate change,<br /> respect,promote and consider their respective obligations</p> <p>on human rights,the right to health,the rights of indigenous peoples,local communities, migrants, children, persons with disabilities and people in vulnerable situations and the right to development as well as gender equality, empowerment of women and intergenerational equity<br /> ",</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481366&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Eym7ed9juuj3nR9M6eaNOYVwkICm7wNlZp0ZCHBvsQE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481366">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481367" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493462470"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And... ?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481367&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NXlzAQE6QZS9l-8eg-zhM3wYN4fvD2RbiGmdYPDC4Xs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481367">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481368" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493463633"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"That’s not what recoup means."</p> <p>Yes it does.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481368&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rmPWMF5qve992VoX6UTw9kSpcQZ1S6yrGdLtjuUUd3c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481368">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481369" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493463716"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>re 31: And he doesn't know what next. It must be some sort of pavlovian response.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481369&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="m7sjTz_3iUhT9wA_02EllMz5ZBjesb7d9kV0JVVfibs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481369">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481370" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493463794"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I hate to think I'm right, but I believe there is a good possibility that mikeN believes all the things he lists in #30 are bad things.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481370&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="gq9NMPrhNnWKUw4ekwWqKB9mbePsEjPlHlVkUcFejbo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481370">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481371" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493464610"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Me too, but hopefully he will clarify.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481371&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="YT6ipmD8x-rISWC1OWjoeEZTfP7sjwetiDISod6H6A4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481371">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481372" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493465894"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Dirty hippies have been a convenient target for the American right for a full fifty years now after replacing the filthy Commies.</p> <p>Maybe there should be a commemorative stamp or coin to mark the handover to the snowflake SJWs or whatever the next great bete noire will be.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481372&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="an9gOK4FV3Lj-it6Ep9n5LDQNMFdFAx5adSUGJ90a4w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magma (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481372">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481373" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493468268"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#28, perhaps I read it wrong, but the Wikipedia article now looks different from what I described above, stating that government lost 500 million on Solyndra.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481373&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="S88N71gCp_hlJSinSJYSOIlK1Dt0uUOrhCwFf6PkQSY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481373">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481374" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493469683"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yeah, I guess you need to go to some place that has to, on pain of court appearance, to tell the truth. Solyndra or the government.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481374&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8fGSbReRg_RoMy4BlYnDs2oUbditK_NTQXnxjMfnWys"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481374">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481375" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493470152"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN</p> <p>What was your point at #30?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481375&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aRsoXJzBUhIFPeqG9uQQ2xr-eDty156zL8VFQoUq2TA"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481375">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481376" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493470781"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OK Wow and MikeN enough with definitions.</p> <p>The <b>entire</b> loan program, of which Solyndra was a part, ended up making a little money. That's <b>net</b>. </p> <p>The "expectation to recoup" refers to getting back some of the money from Solyndra <b>in addition</b> to that net. </p> <p>So, the overall program, of which Solyndra was a part, turned out to be a good deal because technology was developed and the government made a little money. What's not to like about that? </p> <p>Solyndra did develop an interesting technology, but it is the nature of venture capital that this doesn't guarantee a successful business will result. Note that they did win some lawsuits against dumping by competitors; had prices for other tech not plummeted, and some oversight had been applied, it might have turned out differently.</p> <p>It is also probably true that the people running things were playing fast and loose-- apparently not quite illegal but they are hardly the only finance people to wreck things with overly clever maneuvers and hubris and puffery.</p> <p>By the way, wait until the bill comes due on the nuclear plant bankruptcy, which I guess is an OK waste of taxpayer money, even though it is not driving much innovation at all?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481376&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sSU-hJgRKnAnxt0s2bWDsW2X9K0c1A3kuImE9yLAmyg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481376">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481377" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493479082"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra, I was responding to comments about Solyndra, with Wow claiming it made money and Vic saying it was a failure. </p> <p>BBD,see #7, 14.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481377&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l7RPezFp9R2QnhQj1t0T47t9kzoM0RSnQXBwVIHXIPc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481377">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481378" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493479826"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>As usual there is so much that is so uninformed and confused about MikeN’s thinking that it’s hard to know where to begin. </p></blockquote> <p>That is certainly true, but it doesn't address the question about #30.</p> <p>Portland's leaders did vote to stop corporate investments. The earliest they say this could be completed is 2019/2020, but since state law requires them to re-evaluate investment policies each year there is nothing certain to be said about whether it will happen or be re-instated.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481378&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="P1OTsLx5B9TJA43lYQaM-w3PajtNlzjfjLaDySCDL70"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481378">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481379" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493480472"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>MikeN</p> <blockquote><p>BBD,see #7, 14.</p></blockquote> <blockquote><p>Parties should, when taking action to address climate change, respect, promote and consider their respective obligations on human rights, the right to health, the rights of indigenous peoples, local communities, migrants, children, persons with disabilities and people in vulnerable situations and the right to development as well as gender equality, empowerment of women and intergenerational equity.</p></blockquote> <p>Why is any of this bad? Why should you even care if these objectives - laudable as they are - get linked with climate change?</p> <p>So, back to the question again:</p> <p>Why is any of this bad?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481379&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LlaWyIu9V9l9WZeBxcpBR6-AYHe02-S7Q87t6vkCADk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481379">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481380" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493481198"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Your question was what was the point of comment #30, I replied that it was a followup to 7 and 14. It is from the Paris Accord.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481380&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Js1mfxpjclmhp3Prk7k2zUrk116wxrP6gphS-hxFU0I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481380">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481381" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493481560"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So you can't answer the question that's been asked three times now mikeN, or you won't answer it?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481381&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JRWiB0A6jDkB_q_WZbrRLKxoqYHLpHQiyjFa6PhYS94"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481381">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481382" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493481664"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Keep punching why?</p> <p>You quoted this:</p> <blockquote><p>Parties should, when taking action to address climate change, respect, promote and consider their respective obligations on human rights, the right to health, the rights of indigenous peoples, local communities, migrants, children, persons with disabilities and people in vulnerable situations and the right to development as well as gender equality, empowerment of women and intergenerational equity.</p></blockquote> <p>You want to keep punching... why?</p> <p>Why is any of this bad?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481382&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BbfocGvPN-QY3HPcgVAB5IQoTznfSJ7zE6DoVoDYYAI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481382">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481383" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493486692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;You want to keep punching… why?</p> <p>Greg Laden described reason to stop punching as:<br /> "But recently, it seems like there is a move to stop punching the hippies quite so much. Consider the following quote, from a recent piece in Bloomberg News:</p> <p>“Seventy five percent of Trump supporters like renewables and want to advance renewables. The conversation has changed."</p> <p>Having climate science associated with liberal causes is a counterargument to the stop punching advocated by Trump supporters. Your response is to ask what is wrong with the liberal causes being attached, or at least the specific example I gave. I don't think it's necessary to go into detail of arguing against various liberal slogans.<br /> I will note that the Human Rights Council recently sent a letter to Trump saying that repeal of ObamaCare is a violation of treaties.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481383&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HuPnl6Xj3q88ReAhFHxort-x3iqAIluzouZvuqdpus8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481383">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481384" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493486937"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Shorter mikeN:</p> <p>I can't explain why those things are bad so I'll make some shit up.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481384&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vU39H-x7E2LTG6zV5oWXrJHlblqqy4IYXN2MWuLNRpM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Dea (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481384">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481385" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493487014"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Lots of dexterity problems today. 48 is from me.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481385&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="f4lxWNJYrYRlAqlhxGIMs40u6J5o5sew6vSMYhpvBOM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">dean (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481385">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481386" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493492088"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>MikeN : "Having climate science associated with liberal causes is a counterargument to the stop punching advocated by Trump supporters."</p></blockquote> <p>No, it's not. All you're stating is that you hate "liberals" and that you think your tribe should hate them too... because guilt by association... and because you say so?</p> <blockquote><p>MikeN: "Your response is to ask what is wrong with the liberal causes being attached, or at least the specific example I gave. I don’t think it’s necessary to go into detail of arguing against various liberal slogans."</p></blockquote> <p>... because? All you care about is how good it feels when your knee is jerking? Because all you have is a bunch of rhetorical nonsense that you don't happen to be able to think of at the moment?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481386&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="G8jkuZYe5-nfgXkuSt-5f83p7kOlb2CZEuhVsJ00SSo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Obstreperous Applesauce">Obstreperous A… (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481386">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481387" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493501730"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Id suggest protecting and observing the<br /> biosphere is a very conservative thing.<br /> Wanna be a liberal radical? Then piss in the swimming pool<br /> we all swim in.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481387&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ixqUdy302YvNzLRJGEJxo9YMIeM-fd5OdO6hqEFPF9w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Li D (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481387">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481388" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493502949"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>&gt;because guilt by association… and because you say so?</p> <p>Perhaps I misunderstood what was meant by punching hippies.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481388&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w5ZAG0xRMApW9jkU8wQn4vdhsOvcCoUa8PHIyWn914Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481388">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481389" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493518170"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Your question was what was the point of comment #30, "</p> <p>Yes, what was the point?</p> <p>"It was a follow up" isn't a point, since that still requires a "why?", since it still says nothing about what the point of the quote was, it just passes the buck back to why was it "in" #7?</p> <p>It's no different from "I posted it into a textbox called "Comment" that I entered the text into!"</p> <p>That you still don't know what the hell you're talking about is no surprise to anyone. The only mild surprise is you still think you can get away with a nonanswer.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481389&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TAilE0OTKO6hlTshBSrGqkbmpmXn7h60IrPy0q5RGe4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 29 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481389">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481390" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493536697"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That was incoherent nonsense, MikeN. </p> <p>You sound embarrassed by your own reactionary nastiness, which is, I suppose, progress of a sort.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481390&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mKdWUtaU3widKjGnLqCY_3i1kMWq1MTp5oRdg7pYQpQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481390">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481391" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493558035"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"But long term, the hippie punching is becoming a thing of the past, with respect to energy.</p> <p>Don’t worry, though, there are still plenty of reasons to punch the hippies. No one on the right wing need be worried that their favorite past time is going anywhere any time soon.<br /> "<br /> BBD, did you object to any of this, or ask why he thinks its OK to punch the hippies? You understood what he was saying and accepted it. Suddenly you ask me to defend it, when I am using the same assumption. Greg was arguing that the hippie-punching is delinking from energy, and I point out that they are still being linked.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481391&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="UzKZuRQYXFcHoaGsk926FnT6ZoasV_vZuZhMvXSnQbs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">MikeN (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481391">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1481392" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1493558943"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"BBD, did you object to any of this"</p> <p>Did you? Or do you find it 100% absolutely fine?</p> <p>Or are you now wondering why BBD didn't "bite the lure" of your asinine posts, therefore ensuring that no matter the outcome you can preen yourself in bed-wetting imbecility that you're "winning" whether some random post is replied to (so therefore trolled successfully) or not (therefore you can berate for "hypocrisy")?</p> <p>But did YOU ask why he thought it fine to punch the hippies? You understood what he was saying AND TOOK IT LITERALLY, yet you only deigned to complain at SOMEONE ELSE.</p> <p>How cucklord of you.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1481392&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wrhMUvJu2q29Ab5_oTC9Nz0CHY4NrMnd4D_8CmsKVp8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 30 Apr 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1481392">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2017/04/27/it-is-time-to-stop-punching-the-hippies%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Thu, 27 Apr 2017 07:05:12 +0000 gregladen 34361 at https://scienceblogs.com Diablo Canyon, Climate Change, Drought, and Energy Policy https://scienceblogs.com/significantfigures/index.php/2016/06/24/diablo-canyon-climate-change-drought-and-energy-policy <span>Diablo Canyon, Climate Change, Drought, and Energy Policy</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><div style="width: 410px;"><img class="wp-image-626 size-medium" src="http://scienceblogs.com/significantfigures/files/2016/06/Diablo-Canyon-400x232.jpg" width="400" height="232" /> Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant, courtesy PG&amp;E </div> <p>The announcement that Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&amp;E) will close the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Plant when its current operating licenses expire in 2025 has caused what can only be described as consternation mixed with occasional conniptions among the nuclear industry and some strongly pro-nuclear groups.</p> <p>That’s understandable. Diablo Canyon is aging, but is not the oldest nuclear plant in the fleet and PG&amp;E could have chosen to push for a renewal of the license to continue operations for many more years. Diablo Canyon’s two reactors are also California’s last operating nuclear plants, following the closure many years ago of Rancho Seco near Sacramento, and more recently, the last of the San Onofre reactors. As such, the closure is symbolic of the broader woes of the nuclear power industry in the United States, which has been unable to build new reactors and is seeing the current reactors being shuttered, one by one.</p> <p>The decision to phase out Diablo also rankles those who see <strong><em>all</em></strong> non-carbon energy sources as critical in the fight against the real threat of climate change. This has led to an internecine dispute among those who claim the mantle of “environmentalist,” who are legitimately concerned about climate, but who split on their positions around the pros and cons of nuclear power.</p> <p>I get it. The climate threat is the most urgent one facing the planet and shutting down major non-carbon energy sources makes it that much harder to meet carbon reduction goals. But old nuclear plants have to be retired and replaced at some point, simply due to age, economics, and updated environmental challenges. It would be great if there was a new generation of replacement reactors that was safe, cost-effective, and reliable and if there was a satisfactory resolution to the problem of nuclear wastes and accumulating spent fuel. But at the moment, there isn’t. The good news is there are other non-carbon alternatives available.</p> <p>And Diablo Canyon faced a unique set of problems, including the need in the next few years to replace its old once-thru ocean cooling system with a far costlier, but more environmentally friendly system, challenges with steam generators and a growing risk of leaks, the long-standing earthquake risk at the site, and cheaper alternatives. Even with the sunk costs at Diablo Canyon, these challenges made it clear that cheaper options exist and “<a href="https://www.pge.com/en/about/newsroom/newsdetails/index.page?title=20160621_in_step_with_californias_evolving_energy_policy_pge_labor_and_environmental_groups_announce_proposal_to_increase_energy_efficiency_renewables_and_storage_while_phasing_out_nuclear_power_over_the_next_decade">that California's new energy policies will significantly reduce the need for Diablo Canyon's electricity output.”</a></p> <p>Moreover, the claim that current nuclear energy is cheap is false: even at Diablo Canyon – never a cheap nuclear plant – <a href="http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Shutting-Diablo-Canyon-s-reactors-reflects-8316329.php">additional updates to address existing problems could cost a massive additional $10 billion</a>.  As Peter Bradford, a former member of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said,</p> <blockquote><p>“The unraveling of the [hoped for nuclear] renaissance was not a surprise to anyone who understood the workings of the power markets.”</p></blockquote> <p>Diablo isn’t shutting down tomorrow. The plan gives the utility nearly a decade to phase out the plant and replace it with renewable energy and energy efficiency. As the <a href="https://www.pge.com/en/about/newsroom/newsdetails/index.page?title=20160621_in_step_with_californias_evolving_energy_policy_pge_labor_and_environmental_groups_announce_proposal_to_increase_energy_efficiency_renewables_and_storage_while_phasing_out_nuclear_power_over_the_next_decade">official announcement</a> notes:</p> <blockquote><p>“The Joint Proposal would replace power produced by two nuclear reactors at the Diablo Canyon Power Plant (DCPP) with a cost-effective, greenhouse gas free portfolio of energy efficiency, renewables and energy storage.”</p></blockquote> <p>This time frame is important. When San Onofre closed its last reactor in 2012, with no formal replacement plan in place, there was a short-term spike in natural gas consumption (worsened by the simultaneous arrival of a multi-year drought, which cut hydroelectricity generation) and an increase in California’s greenhouse gas emissions. Nuclear proponents cherry pick this point as evidence that shutting Diablo will similarly lead to an increase in emissions. But within a couple of years, the rapid construction of non-carbon wind and solar systems made up for San Onofre’s lost electricity, and natural gas use -- <a href="http://pacinst.org/publication/impacts-of-californias-ongoing-drought-hydroelectricity-generation-2015-update/">excluding excess natural gas burned to make up for lost hydroelectricity due to the drought</a> --dropped again. The Figure below shows total non-fossil fuel electricity generation in California from 2001-2015 (solid red line) and what it <strong><em>would</em></strong> have been without the drought (dotted red line). Without the drought, expansion of new solar and wind completely made up for San Onofre’s closure.</p> <div style="width: 530px;"><img class=" wp-image-624" src="http://scienceblogs.com/significantfigures/files/2016/06/CA-energy-non-fossil-to-2015-400x294.jpg" alt="Total non-fossil fuel electricity generation with (solid red line) and without the drought (dashed red line). Data from US EIA." width="520" height="382" /> Total non-fossil fuel electricity generation with (solid red line) and without the drought (dashed red line). Data from US EIA. </div> <p>With the longer timeframe to prepare for closing Diablo Canyon, and with the specific agreement to accelerate investment in renewables, there is no reason California’s carbon reduction targets can’t be met. Will they? We don’t know: that ultimately depends on the nature and timing of efforts to continue California’s transition to non-carbon energy.</p> <p>But even this argument misses the key point: While it is certainly far better from a climate perspective to replace old fossil fuel plants rather than old nuclear plants, even old nuclear plants have to be replaced eventually. We should keep them open as long as feasible from an economic, environmental, and safety point of view, but when the decision is made to replace them, make sure other non-carbon generation and energy efficiency options are part of the decision.</p> <p>That’s what happened here and it is a model for the future.</p> <p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/PeterGleick.Scientist">Peter Gleick Facebook</a></p> <p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/c/petergleick">Peter Gleick YouTube</a></p> <p><a href="https://twitter.com/PeterGleick">Peter Gleick Twitter</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.gleick.com/">Peter Gleick personal</a></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/pgleick" lang="" about="/author/pgleick" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pgleick</a></span> <span>Fri, 06/24/2016 - 05:48</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-impacts" hreflang="en">climate impacts</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/drought" hreflang="en">drought</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/energy-0" hreflang="en">energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/california" hreflang="en">california</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/diablo-canyon-nuclear-power-plant" hreflang="en">Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/natural-gas" hreflang="en">natural gas</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nuclear-power" hreflang="en">nuclear power</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/renewable-energy" hreflang="en">renewable energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/san-onofre-nuclear-power-plant" hreflang="en">San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/wind" hreflang="en">wind</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change" hreflang="en">climate change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-impacts" hreflang="en">climate impacts</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/drought" hreflang="en">drought</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/energy-0" hreflang="en">energy</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/environment" hreflang="en">Environment</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1908786" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1466812685"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE MEN WHO CAUSED IT! --BY STEVE FINNELL</p> <p>Do men have the ability to effect climate change on the planet earth? Are heat waves, cooling temperatures, earth quakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts, gale-force winds, and snow storms the result of man's mismanagement of the planet?</p> <p>Is it not naive and arrogant to assume that puny man can effect climate change? Man-made climate change is a grand hoax, at best.</p> <p>HAVE MEN BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR CHANGES IN WEATHER PATTERNS? YES, HOWEVER, THEY HAVE HAD NO POWER TO EFFECT THE CHANGES THAT OCCURRED.</p> <p>Genesis 6:13 The God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.</p> <p>Were men responsible for the change in the weather pattern? Yes. Did men effect the change of the weather? No, God caused it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights, not men.</p> <p>Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, :The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.</p> <p>Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,</p> <p>Were men responsible for the weather change in Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. Did men cause the weather to change? No, God effected the change in the climate.</p> <p>1 Kings 8:35 "When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain; because they have sinned against You....</p> <p>Men are sometimes responsible for droughts, however, God effects the weather changes.</p> <p>Matthew 27: 51,54 And behold , the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"</p> <p>Notice, the centurion did not attribute the earth quake to man-made climate change.</p> <p>2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.</p> <p>Men are responsible for the global warming that is coming.</p> <p>No amount of green initiatives will stop the final global warming. Puny men will have no effect on the final climate change.</p> <p>THE MAN-MADE CLIMATE CHANGE HOAX WAS INVENT BY 1.DISHONEST MEN 2.NAIVE MEN 3.ARROGANT MEN 4.OR ALL OF THE ABOVE.</p> <p>GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE WEATHER. </p> <p> CHECK OUT MY BLOG. <a href="http://steve-finnell.blogspot.com">http://steve-finnell.blogspot.com</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908786&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="myDTzg4ISaZ77FcMPxwli-5V7FDC7_bNIx0rMKlrX-4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Finnell (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908786">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="120" id="comment-1908792" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1467697825"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Gee, I'd tell you to look up the difference between the word "effect" and "affect" in the dictionary, but that's the least of your problems here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908792&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O7zQo7S-t7rpoKJhf-8kGRK0Onf0ZhSqZVeWNwxALNU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/pgleick" lang="" about="/author/pgleick" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pgleick</a> on 05 Jul 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908792">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/pgleick"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/pgleick" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/348A0127-120x120.jpg?itok=3tK_KEEi" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user pgleick" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1908786#comment-1908786" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Steve Finnell (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1908787" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1466827100"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is, simply put, nonsense.</p> <p>Diablo Canyon will be mostly replaced by natural gas and emissions will increase if the Joint Proposal by PG&amp;E, IBEW 1245, and anti-nuclear groups is approved by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) and upheld by the courts.</p> <p>Further, the percentage of electricity PG&amp;E derives from low-carbon energy sources will decline from 58 to 55 percent.</p> <p>The Proposal claims it will replace the 17,660 gigawatt-hours of low-carbon electricity produced by Diablo Canyon with an equal amount of low-carbon electricity, but the details of the Proposal make clear that will not happen. The Proposal’s specifics mandate:</p> <p>1) 2,000 gigawatt-hours per year of reduced energy consumption through energy efficiency by 2025;</p> <p>2) Another 2,000 gigawatt-hours per year of “GHG free energy resources or energy efficiency” to come on line by 2025;</p> <p>3) There is no 3.</p> <p>That’s it: 4,000 gigawatt-hours per year of (mostly) energy efficiency and (maybe) renewable power to replace 17,660 gigawatt-hours from Diablo Canyon.</p> <p>Where will the remaining 13,660 gigawatt-hours come from? The Proposal doesn’t say, but the only source it can come from is natural gas.</p> <p>And with all of that natural gas will come 5.4 million tons of extra carbon dioxide emissions every year.</p> <p>Read More: Why Diablo Canyon Will Live — and the Corrupt Proposal to Kill It Will Fail</p> <p>What about energy storage? The Proposal itself admits, “energy storage, by itself, is not a source of energy,” which may be why it doesn’t bother setting storage targets.</p> <p>What about the 55 percent (of PG&amp;E sales) Renewable Portfolio Standard by 2031 (to last through 2045)?</p> <p>That sounds good, but it starts 6 years after Diablo Canyon would close, and it’s actually a stepdown from PG&amp;E’s current GHG free share of generation, which was 58 percent last year.</p> <p>So all the efficiency and renewables the Proposal mandates—or vaguely promises—would leave PG&amp;E’s energy mix slightly dirtier in 2045 than it was in 2015—no progress at all for 30 years because of Diablo’s closure.</p> <p>And while it might constitute a nominal replacement (almost) of Diablo Canyon, it would likely come by buying Renewable Energy Certificates from out-of-state renewable plants, leaving California’s in-state generation markedly dirtier. Under that RPS mechanism, California has met its nominal renewables targets even as the GHG free share of in-state electricity generation has fallen by 20 percent over the last decade.</p> <p>The reason the Proposal doesn’t call for replacing Diablo with renewable energy is simple: California’s grid can’t handle it. The state is already struggling to integrate intermittent renewable power, and is having to curtail mid-day surges of solar to avoid destabilizing the grid.</p> <p>The Proposal acknowledges that Diablo must be closed to make room for curtailed solar. (Of course, replacing clean nuclear power with clean solar power does nothing for the climate, although its great for the solar industry.)</p> <p>But it also states that closure will “impact the efficient and reliable balancing of load,” which means blackout risk. That’s why the Proposal is careful not to mandate any more destabilizing solar or wind—and leaves the door wide open for reliable gas generation.</p> <p>Which leaves load reduction through energy efficiency as the main (though woefully inadequate) green component of both the Proposal and PG&amp;E’s forecasts. But while energy efficiency is great, load reduction is plumb stupid as climate policy.</p> <p>Grid electricity is the easiest part of the energy supply to decarbonize, so we should be using more electricity—for transport, heating and other purposes—not less; PG&amp;E’s generation should grow mightily to accommodate all the Tesla’s and Volts Californian’s could be driving on electricity from Diablo Canyon. The Proposal’s prescription for grid austerity marks a disastrous wrong turn for California energy policy.</p> <p>All of this fits a growing pattern. Despite green groups’ claims that nuclear power can be easily replaced by wind, solar and energy efficiency, recently closed plants from Vermont Yankee to California’s San Onofre have been replaced overwhelmingly with fossil-fueled power. With Diablo Canyon, at least they are admitting ahead of time that renewables can’t do the job.</p> <p>Read More: Why Diablo Canyon Will Live — and the Corrupt Proposal to Kill It Will Fail</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908787&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uwWNDyr9u9CPZn9IhQXqfEqXp1QKK0-_Prd20X---Kc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Michael Shellenberger">Michael Shelle… (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908787">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="120" id="comment-1908788" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1467134251"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>This is normally too long for a comment, but I know how strongly Mike S. feels about this, so here you go.<br /> I won't respond except to say we'll see what happens. Recent experience in California and elsewhere shows the potential for tremendously rapid expansion of non-carbon renewables and efficiency. If they don't expand rapidly enough, then indeed, California's non-carbon energy will be lower than desired. Time will tell.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908788&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IJCc-n7yWz9cR8TC5FbC7tY-tfK47jqYwY3hAVlNz5E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/pgleick" lang="" about="/author/pgleick" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pgleick</a> on 28 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908788">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/pgleick"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/pgleick" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/348A0127-120x120.jpg?itok=3tK_KEEi" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user pgleick" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1908787#comment-1908787" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="" content="Michael Shellenberger">Michael Shelle… (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1908789" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1467339162"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As one who strongly supported the renewable tax credit extension as a means of cutting CO2 emissions, I am really unhappy to see those credits being used to exchange one carbon-free source for another.<br /> This is bait &amp; switch on a gigantic scale. </p> <p>Anti-nuclear groups should not expect support from those of us who take climate change seriously.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908789&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="8J1422bICxC1pRJ3Pcr8yTxP2UFXtnbeRwSS7xuMvk0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">keith campbell (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908789">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1908790" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1467351568"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Goodness, we have a time traveller from the near future!</p> <p>Well, now you've told us what happened when we closed that plant down, care to let us know the winners of the derby over the next few years?</p> <p>Or were you being a nostradamus and "predicting" the future based on what you want to be considered, not what evidence you've considered.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908790&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="zFYDZhx7QsgC_Jsa-srArU2t6zLjdB4SE96iqTYArIE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908790">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="120" id="comment-1908791" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1467697670"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>What a silly comment. We ALL make predictions based on past experience and evidence (What route to work should I take based on my experience with traffic every day; when's the best time to shop at the store to avoid crowds, etc.). The past is a helpful guide to the future. And how is this different than the equivalent "predictions" that shutting down Diablo Canyon will lead to MORE natural gas?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1908791&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Qf5VJ50CiN4xvzLfwebeT2Ojn1XtLmsqHu2D5l2_t_w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/author/pgleick" lang="" about="/author/pgleick" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">pgleick</a> on 05 Jul 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1908791">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/author/pgleick"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/author/pgleick" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/348A0127-120x120.jpg?itok=3tK_KEEi" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user pgleick" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1908790#comment-1908790" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/significantfigures/index.php/2016/06/24/diablo-canyon-climate-change-drought-and-energy-policy%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:48:43 +0000 pgleick 71131 at https://scienceblogs.com Harvesting clean energy in cities https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2016/05/25/harvesting-clean-energy-in-cities <span>Harvesting clean energy in cities</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There is a new technology that can convert both solar and wind energy into electricity in such a way that it is suitable for use on urban rooftops. </p> <p>Here's the abstract from the paper describing this work:</p> <blockquote><p>To realize the sustainable energy supply in a smart city, it is essential to maximize energy scavenging from the city environments for achieving the self-powered functions of some intelligent devices and sensors. Although the solar energy can be well harvested by using existing technologies, the large amounts of wasted wind energy in the city cannot be effectively utilized since conventional wind turbine generators can only be installed in remote areas due to their large volumes and safety issues. Here, we rationally design a hybridized nanogenerator, including a solar cell (SC) and a triboelectric nanogenerator (TENG), that can individually/simultaneously scavenge solar and wind energies, which can be extensively installed on the roofs of the city buildings. Under the same device area of about 120 mm × 22 mm, the SC can deliver a largest output power of about 8 mW, while the output power of the TENG can be up to 26 mW. Impedance matching between the SC and TENG has been achieved by using a transformer to decrease the impedance of the TENG. The hybridized nanogenerator has a larger output current and a better charging performance than that of the individual SC or TENG. This research presents a feasible approach to maximize solar and wind energies scavenging from the city environments with the aim to realize some self-powered functions in smart city.</p></blockquote> <p>The paper is "Efficient Scavenging of Solar and Wind Energies in a Smart City" by Wang, Wang, Wang and Yang. <a href="http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsnano.6b02575">You can see the abstract and download a PDF file here. </a></p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Wed, 05/25/2016 - 03:12</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/green-energy" hreflang="en">Green Energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clean-energy" hreflang="en">Clean Energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/energy-0" hreflang="en">energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/urban-wind-power" hreflang="en">Urban Wind Power</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/wind-power" hreflang="en">wind power</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471280" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464167953"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Now that is what I need, we do have sun in Stockport UK, but my rooves are not ideally placed to harvest it given the latitude, however wind we have a lot of.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471280&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pz1yWmzedRGdTHVbPYEauXyORqD02_36F38NvGZjID4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jazzlet (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471280">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471281" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464190644"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>But of course the question is is distributed generation really that much better than long distance HVDC transmission. Ignoring the political realities Europe has just south of the Mediterranean a very large area that would be excellent for solar power. HVDC cables could span the straits of Gibraltar at a minimum. Likewise in the US if you built the HVDC lines from the Southwest you could get solar east and also solve some of the problem of peak off peak because of the 2 hour or so difference in sunrise sunset times. Building the HVDC lines further north would also enable wind energy to participate.<br /> It is not clear with prices we see with solar power today at about .04/kwh at the delivery point to the network that distributed solar really makes economic sense. Note that from the integrated utilities perspective net metering should be at the wholesale route. (Which it would be in de-vertically integrated, or deregulated areas). Essentially the home system is treated just like a generator in this model.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471281&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="pcx84nA934rB_iAZxzrJxS8rKOJHjlklxnAUaM-ike8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lyle (not verified)</span> on 25 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471281">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471282" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464236430"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@Lyle 2</p> <p>The question is "better for whom?"</p> <p>1. What is the argument for "utilities" being retailers at all rather than common carriers?</p> <p>2. You lose the resiliency of local generation in a "stormier" world.</p> <p>3. You lose the economic benefit of local jobs.</p> <p>Here's my suggestion: Along with pricing carbon, require "utilities" to act as common carriers only, and operate a marketplace that <i>equitably</i> enables buyers and sellers to make transactions. (a combination of UPS, FedEx,... and Amazon Marketplace, EBay, ... .</p> <p>Then, if you want to invest in an HVDC line from the Southwest to the Northeast, that can be your market decision.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471282&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="dGdB-siIZJkGSFTzWaxzLosuSHXzNv1RwmQ5y97Tqg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 26 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471282">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471283" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464252422"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I wonder about the failure rate of those vibrating membranes in the TENG, and about the cost of the whole thing. Also the angle of the solar cells to the sun looks less than optimal. I would prefer to keep solar and wind separate and as simple as possible, for cheapness and ease of servicing. You could put a row of conventional wind generators along the ridge line.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471283&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KkTpQOOT7xE5Ads6ylJUSwYSo4ikuc2Jhse_Nn7MuUE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">David Evans (not verified)</span> on 26 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471283">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471284" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464314479"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@jazzlet</p> <p>What you need in Stockport is a kinetic energy generator to convert the energy stored in raindrops!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471284&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aaDELvBTfUjq_nHcaLVKq0PmHFpCMMkAVzYEchptG0o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">symball (not verified)</span> on 26 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471284">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471285" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464320600"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Re #3 in one sense that is what the non vertically integrated model has already done. The distribution utility is a common carrier that will move power from the substation to the consumer. It is open to all comers and bills them for usage of the local grid. There is no longer a utility in the old model. For example if you want to buy wind or solar power you have the option to buy that from a retailer who provides that service.<br /> Just like in Europe with the feed in tarrif which is fading away roof top solar would not make sense with netmetering at the wholesale price level. (i.e. the payout would exceed 20 years). Note this is what payout times in Tx look like for solar right now. If the Ca public utility commission set cost appropriate rates solar would not catch on in Ca either, but they are extracting excess money from the public because they could not get the non vertically integrated model right.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471285&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jrr_spxSVzSD0vyqQq78uUXlWGHgpO_aq-HCuAXwhwk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">lyle (not verified)</span> on 26 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471285">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471286" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464323909"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>@lyle 6,</p> <p>Can you provide any detail of what you are talking about or a reference to any actual system that follows the model I have suggested?</p> <p>And explain what "extracting excess money from the public" means?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471286&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="h1BbihJqIIsU1uz1AIMp_Rxy5rdO4s9fSup6iTJa4iI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 27 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471286">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471287" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464333227"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>“But of course the question is is distributed generation really that much better than long distance HVDC transmission.” #2</p> <p>Maybe not if, but when. I don't think there's a one size fits all answer, and any answer has to depend on the resources that are available. In any case, a geographically diverse renewable energy supply provides greater stability than a geographically limited one.</p> <p>The technology here is interesting, but perhaps more interesting than useful. The best winds are at higher altitudes than roof level, and as not all areas have good winds, the additional material and money resources might not make sense. There's a good reason why wind turbines have gotten larger, and why they tend to be erected in areas with winds that actually can produce energy.</p> <p>As far as solar is concerned, utility scale solar tends to be located in sunny places. It can produce electricity at a considerably lower price than rooftop, and would probably also necessitate the use of fewer material resources. </p> <p>(From my vantage point, the policies and prices of American utilities are of no interest.)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471287&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="EIt9a9txUmNpsIKkulmPAMSk9-RbbVTteOX-gA3T7cI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cosmicomics (not verified)</span> on 27 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471287">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471288" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464489437"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://conservationmagazine.org/2016/01/current-technology-could-give-u-s-an-affordable-clean-grid/">http://conservationmagazine.org/2016/01/current-technology-could-give-u…</a></p> <p>"Our results show that when using future anticipated costs for wind and solar, carbon dioxide emissions from the US electricity sector can be reduced by up to 80% relative to 1990 levels, without an increase in the levelized cost of electricity. The reductions are possible with current technologies and without electrical storage. Wind and solar power increase their share of electricity production as the system grows to encompass large-scale weather patterns. This reduction in carbon emissions is achieved by moving away from a regionally divided electricity sector to a national system enabled by high-voltage direct-current transmission."<br /> <i>Future cost-competitive electricity systems and their impact on US CO2 emissions</i><br /> <a href="http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v6/n5/full/nclimate2921.html">http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v6/n5/full/nclimate2921.html</a></p> <p>"The need for new energy storage is often seen as an obstacle to integrating renewable electricity into national power systems. Modelling shows that existing technologies could provide significant emissions reductions in the US without the need for storage, however."<br /> <i>Energy modelling: Clean grids with current technology</i><br /> <a href="http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v6/n5/full/nclimate2926.html?WT.ec_id=NCLIMATE-201605&amp;spMailingID=51246683&amp;spUserID=ODQ1NzA3NTc4NDcS1&amp;spJobID=903435134&amp;spReportId=OTAzNDM1MTM0S0">http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v6/n5/full/nclimate2926.html?WT…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471288&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="woDQlBFh9hpxx63fKTrykr-SwokwZqSuxyyGGLJs20s"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cosmicomics (not verified)</span> on 28 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471288">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1471289" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1464518858"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You need to do the back of the envelope math. The amount of power generated per unit area is minuscule, maybe 1% of a standard solar panel. So this may be interesting from a scientific perspective, but unless the efficiency can be scaled up by orders of magnitude, it isn't a realistic alternative.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1471289&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="NwkIfeMGjoKI0CnIOTLCYE6qnzdmKu7U7fB_FaG2Lk8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Omega Centauri (not verified)</span> on 29 May 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1471289">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2016/05/25/harvesting-clean-energy-in-cities%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Wed, 25 May 2016 07:12:35 +0000 gregladen 33956 at https://scienceblogs.com Incredibly important finding on renewable energy https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2015/12/04/incredibly-important-finding-on-renewable-energy <span>Incredibly important finding on renewable energy</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The big complaint people have about renewable energy, or at least, the big complaint that has some merit, is that renewables, such as wind and solar, are intermittent and to varying degrees, unpredictably intermittent. This makes it hard to match demand for electricity to supply. Some aspects of this argument are overstated. For example, a steady supply (the same potential power all the time, every minute of the day) can be a bug as well as a feature. If every electron of electricity we used came from nuclear power plants, there would be a problem because our demand fluctuates and you can't vary the output of a nuclear plant. Some of the arguments are inaccurate. For example, it is not true that a nuclear power plant produces the same exact amount of electricity all the time. Nuke plants often reduce production unexpectedly. If there is some sort of problem, they partly shut down. And, of course, the shut down for refueling. So they are not perfect. </p> <p>The problem if intermittent and less than ideally predictable supply can be addressed a number of ways. One is big huge batteries, which are costly and otherwise problematic. There are various other storage methods using water and air and things that can hold heat or "hold cold." And so on. Then, of course, there is the grid. If it is sunny one place and cloudy a different place, electricity can be shunted between. </p> <p>Still, we often see arguments suggesting that these methods of matching supply and demand of electricity are problematic in one way or another.</p> <p>A new research project, just out in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, addresses these issues and gives great hope to the use of 100% non-nuclear renewables to meet energy demands. The paper is by Mark Jacobson, Mark Delucchi, Mary Cameron, and Bethany Frew, and is titled "<a href="http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/18/1510028112.abstract">Low-cost solution to the grid reliability problem with 100% penetration of intermittent wind, water, and solar for all purposes</a>."</p> <p>Here is the abstract and the statement of significance from the paper:</p> <p><a href="/files/gregladen/files/2015/12/Screen-Shot-2015-12-04-at-11.58.07-AM.png"><img src="/files/gregladen/files/2015/12/Screen-Shot-2015-12-04-at-11.58.07-AM.png" alt="Screen Shot 2015-12-04 at 11.58.07 AM" width="840" height="273" class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-21927" /></a></p> <blockquote><p>This study addresses the greatest concern facing the large-scale integration of wind, water, and solar (WWS) into a power grid: the high cost of avoiding load loss caused by WWS variability and uncertainty. It uses a new grid integration model and finds low-cost, no-load-loss, nonunique solutions to this problem on electrification of all US energy sectors (electricity, transportation, heating/cooling, and industry) while accounting for wind and solar time series data from a 3D global weather model that simulates extreme events and competition among wind turbines for available kinetic energy. So- lutions are obtained by prioritizing storage for heat (in soil and water); cold (in ice and water); and electricity (in phase-change materials, pumped hydro, hydropower, and hydrogen), and using demand response. No natural gas, biofuels, nuclear power, or sta- tionary batteries are needed. The resulting 2050–2055 US electricity social cost for a full system is much less than for fossil fuels. These results hold for many conditions, suggesting that low-cost, reliable 100% WWS systems should work many places worldwide.</p> <p>The large-scale conversion to 100% wind, water, and solar (WWS) power for all purposes (electricity, transportation, heating/cooling, and industry) is currently inhibited by a fear of grid instability and high cost due to the variability and un- certainty of wind and solar. This paper couples numerical simu- lation of time- and space-dependent weather with simulation of time-dependent power demand, storage, and demand response to provide low-cost solutions to the grid reliability problem with 100% penetration of WWS across all energy sectors in the con- tinental United States between 2050 and 2055. Solutions are obtained without higher-cost stationary battery storage by pri- oritizing storage of heat in soil and water; cold in water and ice; and electricity in phase-change materials, pumped hydro, hy- dropower, and hydrogen.</p></blockquote> <p>I'm still absorbing the paper. I'm informed that the authors of this paper know what they are talking about. People I know in the clean energy biz have been saying for some time that they are pretty sure we can do this, and this study seems to support the idea. Even if this is not perfect, it seems that we can be close to using primarily renewables with some contribution from nuclear, and some adjustments in how we use energy. The key message of this work: It is not hopeless, we can save the world! Will we? </p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/author/gregladen" lang="" about="/author/gregladen" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">gregladen</a></span> <span>Fri, 12/04/2015 - 06:01</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/climate-change-0" hreflang="en">Climate Change</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/energy-0" hreflang="en">energy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/environment" hreflang="en">environment</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clean-fuel" hreflang="en">clean fuel</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/wind" hreflang="en">wind</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468421" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449230063"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Good to know that this sort of work is being done.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468421&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9m6quTxsHrwZw2_C_CLhFZ6MswxjUxLf1Um6S_pQMV4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jazzlet (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468421">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468422" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449231238"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Well golly, USA citizens are not even allowed clean air and water (re: 114th Congress): we sure ab bloody mass shooting Hell are not going to be allowed renewable energy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468422&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hhEHqYOj7N2d3dzQFC3DPytBcdDabbIlkpnYEUMbQ9Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Desertphile (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468422">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468423" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449232676"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>(Shhhh! Don't let Connolley or SoD hear!)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468423&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qCe-ImjhEg2pHEGHwwoWERDuYIhL4GCqfehzdJJIBpI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">wheelism (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468423">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468424" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449239352"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Many people underestimate the complexity of the North American and European power grids. Multiple sources, most of them intermittent to some degree or another, are carefully matched to time-varying demand while maintaining voltage, frequency and phase within very narrow limits and avoiding overloads. An article in Physics Today some years ago referred to the North American grid (half a dozen grids, actually, with a number of interties) as one of the most complex engineering structures ever built, and one taken almost completely for granted. It essentially hides in plain sight.</p> <p>With their typical lack of consistency, deniers are quick to embrace such distant or wholly unlikely technological fixes as dikes and levees around the world's low-lying cities, thorium reactors and nuclear fusion, or carbon capture and storage on a global scale. But steady progress on decentralized small-scale power generation, energy storage and a smarter adaptive grid? Well, those are feats far beyond human capacity, according to them.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468424&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0BzpIBf7QN59Nkh3OEd8LVptMPnvJUFWmRnWqfCINfg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magma (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468424">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468425" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449239882"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A copy of the paper can be found on the lead author's Stanford website.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468425&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j9SOC6B_NkCsUJd-UGbHvSPqIvLc4EHDzdOwkC_VOFo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magma (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468425">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468426" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449243506"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Magma #4,</p> <p>Spot on. And even more absurd, they will fight to the death to maintain the "utility" company's monopoly status, along with that of auto franchises, while talking about free markets, freedom, and individual self-sufficiency.</p> <p>Go figure.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468426&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XfFlKIXb6fcxruJQYt4DcQD9Cjj2aQec-PTMqYPiDtg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468426">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468427" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449248380"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>The resulting 2050–2055 US electricity social cost for a full system is much less than for fossil fuels.</p></blockquote> <p>We're just waiting on governments to ensure that the full social cost of fossil fuels is incorporated (through Carbon pricing etc.) into electricity prices.</p> <p>Judging by how often conservatives are in control of the US government, that won't happen until after most of us are dead.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468427&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AuHv6XiDvd1Dq6_w0J64VOyBGLz1QP_ONX5CXAUdfVY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468427">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468428" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449250620"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>These guys do know what they're talking about, but they're widely known to very, very optimistic with their projections. </p> <p>I don't know many energy analysts who think this kind of buildout in this time frame is possible. Will it have a deep penetration by 2055? Almost certainly. But 100% or even 75% is very unlikely.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468428&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="o72yDXsCFCjYZg9-zbWbAhpRcrgMRqTNKJH3P49fIHg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Miguelito (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468428">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468429" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449256695"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Of course variability in demand has been an issue with electric generation from the days of the Pearl Street Plant in NYC (Edison's first). If you watch the web sites that show demand it swings by a factor of up to 2 daily. Consider that the electric street car was pushed by electric companies to get load at off times. Of course some of the measures proposed today are old ideas. For example I recall hearing that during the 1920s water heaters paid less at night than during the day.<br /> Another interesting development. there is a proposed pumped storage plant at an old open pit mine in the Mohave desert. It will recycle water between the upper and lower mine pits. Note that there is also one pumped storage plant that uses sea water in japan.<br /> A simple idea that some dishwashers have already is a time delay feature, make the feature mandatory so the dishwasher can run at 2 am when electric demand is low.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468429&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AU3NyiiXM4TfYF10ZzxdXPUl5T7brAvMU4oZn7_gnbs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Lyle (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468429">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468430" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449274738"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>" People I know in the clean energy biz have been saying for some time that they are pretty sure we can do this, and this study seems to support the idea."</p> <p>It is the job of the 'clean biz" to sell things to the lay person, because they earn a lot of money in doing so. In Germany we have this concept for about a decade. It is a big money transfer scheme from the poor to the rich. About one quarter one third - guaranteed by law - of any electric bill in Germany goes directly to the owner of wind &amp; solar parks. Even if they don't produce energy! There are may people already who can't pay there electric bill and are switched off from the grid. The more "clean energy" the more you have to pay per kWh. If you try to use less energy the prices are also go up.</p> <p>Conclusion: Capitalism runs as usual.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468430&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cAI3KLd2DelkmQQBUhkTviLVON-HL70zq5iWlxjDIHg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Gretchen (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468430">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468431" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449278840"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>It’s 6.3 monies time, full on full scale prototype demonstration + a NAS/NAE study before that (meaning some real engineers get involved not just some academic desk jockey engineers)..</p> <p>Pumped hydro? Mile high dam in the Grand Canyon, fill it with the Pacific Ocean</p> <p>Roadmaps for 139 Countries and the 50 United States to Transition to 100% Clean, Renewable Wind, Water, and Solar (WWS) Power for all Purposes by 2050 and 80% by 2030<br /> <a href="http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/15-11-19-HouseEEC-MZJTestimony.pdf">http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/15-11-19-HouseEE…</a></p> <p>It’s nice that MJ sent it to the “Democratic Forum on Climate Change” but OMFG the USA Congress is MORE THAN HALF FULL OF DENIERS. Talk about a non sequitur.</p> <p>If MJ had instead sent that letter to the DOD they would have gone … Who is this utter nutter?</p> <p>Not going to say that the above can’t be done. I can push some very basic numbers on that buildout strategy though. But I’m kind of guessing it would make the WWII buildout look like a pea shooter fight by comparison.</p> <p>2030 – 2015 = 15 years @ 80% of world energy needs at that point in time. Say 20 TW in 2030 (low estimate?) that’s like a GW of brand new nameplate (I’ve added in a factor of 10 for produced) renewable energy added per HOUR (average). You might be able to ramp to that buildout capacity in oh say 15 years, so 2X for linear buildout (GW per 30 minutes at the end) and 4X for quadratic buildout (GW per 15 minutes at the end).</p> <p>And you build all that 100% renewable stuff with guess what? 100% renewables! You didn’t hear that one from me though.</p> <p>We’ll also assume no future conflicts at all so that we can divert 100% of global military spending towards this effort. I’m s-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o sure that will happen (all nations/peoples stop fighting, like right now).</p> <p>You do get to enslave all shipbuilders and all rail builders and all road builders, the entire energy infrastructure sectors and the entire automobile infrastructure, while in the meantime, you also get to prematurely shut down all FF production.</p> <p>You might as well think about building a Great Pyramid of Cholula per day.</p> <p>Heck, it would take 15 years of head scratching and logistics to even get started.</p> <p>Impossible? No. Mind boggling? YES!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468431&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XB3sYhIoTVg5B1ASo1Mi9sjVYohE2CuRCQBRL7kvWvg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Everett F Sargent (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468431">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468434" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449299649"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Everett F Sargent: <b>"Pumped hydro? Mile high dam in the Grand Canyon, fill it with the Pacific Ocean"</b></p> <p>They will have to kill me before I'll let that happen.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468434&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RLUXdiRcf1R85seoLmDjWFuxqQ79wMesXdmbqgm74cw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Desertphile (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468434">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468431#comment-1468431" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Everett F Sargent (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468432" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449283441"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p><a href="http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/USStatesWWS.pdf">http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/USStatesWWS.pdf</a></p> <p>I think this is it? I look forward to reading it.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468432&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W4aZSj2hLlZn25b7xo3UPuJjZsT1f6m94c8a0daOlww"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Thelarch (not verified)</span> on 04 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468432">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468433" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449295964"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#12</p> <p>No, that's another one. It's a state by state plan to make the U.S. 100% renewable by 2050:</p> <p>"This study presents roadmaps for each of the 50 United States to convert their all-purpose energy systems (for electricity, transportation, heating/cooling, and industry) to ones powered entirely by wind, water, and sunlight (WWS). The plans contemplate 80–85% of existing energy replaced by 2030 and 100% replaced by 2050." </p> <p>The one Greg is describing is here:<br /> <a href="https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/CONUSGridIntegration.pdf">https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/…</a></p> <p>There's another report, from a series of reports, that may be worth a look, but its focus is to reduce emissions by 80%:</p> <p>"Four distinct scenarios employing substantially different decarbonization strategies —High Renewable, High Nuclear, High CCS, and Mixed Cases, which were named according to the different principal form of primary energy used in electricity generation, and also differed in other aspects of energy supply and demand—all met the target, demonstrating robustness by showing that redundant technology pathways to deep decarbonization exist."<br /> unsdsn.org/wp-content/.../US-Deep-Decarbonization-Report.pdf</p> <p>In Denmark we now get approximately 40% of our electricity from wind, and our production price is among the lowest in Europe. Our electric bill is high because of taxes. In 2020 84% of our electricity should be coming from a combination of renewable sources. Unfortunately, the reports I've read are in Danish, and linking to them won't be of much help here. To sum things up very quickly, all seem to agree that that the system needs to be more flexible, and that in the future we'll be using more electricity, but less energy. I may give more information on this tomorrow. </p> <p>One last thing: a couple of days ago Denmark was awarded the Fossil of the Day’ prize at COP21. It was deserved. Our new government is a hypocritical, duplicitous international disgrace.<br /> <a href="http://cphpost.dk/news/denmark-awarded-fossil-of-the-day-prize-at-cop21.html">http://cphpost.dk/news/denmark-awarded-fossil-of-the-day-prize-at-cop21…</a></p> <p>This is the government that tried to reestablish Lomborg's Copenhagen Consensus as a government supported think-tank. According to the article, Denmark will no longer aim to reduce its emissions in 2020 40%, but 37%. It's quite possible that the aim will be reduced even further, so it only corresponds to what the EU as a whole has committed itself to. Whatever progress we've made is the result of previous policies, not policies initiated by our current government.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468433&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jabqstLeRTthIqjSvt-3V-1qLW5OnkHVag2cbeIeyJs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cosmicomics (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468433">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468435" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449302238"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>cosmicomics: <b>"This is the government that tried to reestablish Lomborg’s Copenhagen Consensus as a government supported think-tank. According to the article, Denmark will no longer aim to reduce its emissions in 2020 40%, but 37%. It’s quite possible that the aim will be reduced even further, so it only corresponds to what the EU as a whole has committed itself to. Whatever progress we’ve made is the result of previous policies, not policies initiated by our current government."</b></p> <p>On Facebook I follow Denmark politics because some of my on-line friends live there. I love that hot, spooky fascist woman who is often in the news. The more that sane people criticize her, the more drawn and haggard she looks; she's starting to look like Darth Vader without his helmet. Denmark is turning in to the USA under Bush2.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468435&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mVFYMXItdoTb5oQXZcCLNpMgsYMBpcD3326_QegQs4o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Desertphile (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468435">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468433#comment-1468433" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cosmicomics (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468436" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449322351"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I was astonished to see that they ran a GCM as part of this work; they even get down into the weeds of the cloud parameterization! So that made me suspicious of the whole thing, because why not just download the output of a CMIP run and get the most recent version. Surely there is only one-way coupling, so running an older, cheaper GCM is just a waste of time at best. But it's also true that the coarser the GCM, the lower the variability, which would make solving this problem unrealistically easy.</p> <p>As for the rest of it, this certainly seems to be of the school that if we make enough unrealistically rosy assumptions, the problem goes away. Well, yeah.</p> <p>PNAS has a category of paper that is not peer reviewed, but rather submitted directly by an ANS member. The idea is that a few papers that would otherwise be delayed see publication more quickly, and this sort of hit is worth a lot of misses. I think this is one of the misses.</p> <p>If we don't allow nuclear, we don't allow CCS, we don't allow gross international inequity, we insist on keeping a growth economy, and we refuse to ruin the natural world and put our descendants at risk from climate change, the solution set we have available now consists entirely of wishful thinking and hoping for miracles.</p> <p>We might have threaded that needle if we'd started in earnest at the time of Kyoto, but there is no opening at all anymore to achieve all those things. Researchers who shrug and say it will be easy do us no favors.</p> <p>Maybe a combination of brilliant technology and careful legislation can still save the day on all these fronts. But this paper contains no engineering and no economics, just a bunch of optimistic assumptions and a lot of handwaving.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468436&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="tklVG-Tvg1LveMYwfGsvyg25-kLMtinYkjDvLcEOZ3w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">mt (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468436">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468437" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449324243"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Ice sheets contain enormous quantities of frozen water. If the Greenland Ice Sheet melted, scientists estimate that sea level would rise about 6 meters (20 feet). If the Antarctic Ice Sheet melted, sea level would rise by about 60 meters (200 feet)." National Snow and Ice Data Center.</p> <p>There Are Over 400 Nuclear Reactors and All Their Fuel Rods ! At Sea Level Now ! </p> <p>Relocate All Nuclear Fuel Rods and Contaminated Metals above 3,000 Ft!</p> <p>There Is No Carbon or Methane Budget !</p> <p>"There is no carbon budget anymore and 5C is baked in according to both Shell petroleum and the International Energy Authority. " Kevin Hester</p> <p>There is No Carbon or Methane Budget !</p> <p>There are Methane Deposits that Are Now Being Emitted off the Arctic Siberian Coast, Greenland, and The Antarctic, As The Permafrosts Melt and the Oceans Warm, Methane deposits blowing out of the Crust and Ocean Floors !</p> <p>Methane is a Bridge to Hell, Ban Fracking Gov. Brown ! and President Obama ! </p> <p>Globally we emit over 40 Billion Tons of Carbon Dioxide Annually ! </p> <p>California Emitted 459 Million Toxic Tons of Carbon Dioxide in 2014.</p> <p>Gov Browns call to reduce this to 1990 levels so we can continue to emit over 400 million Toxic Tons a year, will not help us stop or slow down Global Warming and Sea Levels Rising.</p> <p>2020 Limit - AB 32 is now slightly higher than the 427 MMTCO2e in the initial Scoping Plan." Ca. Gov. Data</p> <p>Atmospheric Parts Per Million of Carbon is Now 404</p> <p>In the 1850 Carbon PPM was 260 - 280</p> <p>What will the Temp. be at 415 ppm ?</p> <p>Arctic 80% melted, Greenland is Keeping North America Cool, For How Long ? Antarctica is Melting as Well, When Will It Melt ?</p> <p>We must transition to 100% Renewable Energy</p> <p>Implement a California Residential and Commercial Feed in Tariff.</p> <p>California Residential Feed in Tariff would allow homeowners to sell their Renewable Energy to the utility, protecting our communities from, Global Warming, Poison Water, Grid Failures, Natural Disasters, Toxic Natural Gas and Oil Fracking.</p> <p>A California Commercial FiT in Los Angeles, Palo Alto, an Sacramento Ca. are operating NOW, paying the Business Person 17 cents cents per kilowatt hour.</p> <p>Sign and Share this petition for a California Residential Feed in Tariff.<a href="http://signon.org/sign/let-california-home-owners">http://signon.org/sign/let-california-home-owners</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468437&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="2Tv4Bf5z-d3gWwUF0qzoh-P2_l9scZeUiajkWbtGvy0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Daniel Ferra (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468437">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468438" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449365787"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And here we see Uruguay seems to have solved the problem - 94.5% renewable energy</p> <p><a href="http://ecowatch.com/2015/12/04/uruguay-renewable-energy">http://ecowatch.com/2015/12/04/uruguay-renewable-energy</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468438&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wI6aPGATxak6v5JUaUCgM4XTWIxPZz501tSuAt_l280"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Alder (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468438">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468439" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449373652"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>All we need to do now is start with electricity generation systems that, like Uruguay, already generate 68% of their energy from hydro and get the rest from non-despatchable renewables.</p> <p>Problem solved!!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468439&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0ROe6lIAUW6z0tnzMqlUW1aqD7pgRB_G3iCOdNSkO6o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 05 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468439">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468438#comment-1468438" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Doug Alder (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468440" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449383053"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>mt, this was a PNAS Direct Submission, not a NAS member-sponsored submission. Unsurprising, since PNAS no longer allows any NAS member-sponsored submissions. It does still allow NAS-members to arrange their own (open) peer review for up to 4 papers a year, but that's not the case here either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468440&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="9rxueF38iDmK9kyXOhYapr-lpFPR3GOK6RDSXG0r85w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Marco (not verified)</span> on 06 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468440">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468441" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449393228"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I get the distinct feeling mt did not read the paper. If you claim it is full of rosy assumptions, it's on you to give examples. As far as I can tell, the assumptions are almost all based on existing technology. Solar PV assumes the SunWorld E20 panel, 35 of which are going on my house in a few months. Wind power assumes the REPower (now Senvion) 6 MW turbine, already installed and operating in several places. Solar concentrating power assumes performance equal to Ivanpah. Underground Thermal Energy Storage is based on the Drake Landing Solar Community, which has been operating almost a decade. (Actually they appear to assume much worse performance, as their UTES withdrawals go to zero in January each year, while Drake Landing covers the entire winter, in Alberta.) There is no additional buildout of pumped storage or hydroelectric power beyond what is already permitted (including pending permits). New wind turbine buildout is about a factor of 10 over the number already installed, and they are placed near existing wind farms.</p> <p>I haven't finished reading, but the only rosy assumption I've seen so far is that phase change thermal storage will improve and take over from molten salt in solar concentrated power locations. Honestly, assuming there will be no advances in any technology between now and 2050 is absurdly conservative.</p> <p>As for the GCM, why does that make you suspicious? If you have a specific complaint about GATOR-GCMOM, I'd love to hear it. But "models suck" is hardly a thoughtful criticism. </p> <p>I also note amusedly that when Jacobson published some results from GATOR-GCMOM that white roofs might actually increase global warming, Willis Eschenbach posted a loving article on WUWT about how that's the only model you can believe. And then a couple years later when the same model predicted that large enough offshore farms would significantly reduce the damage from hurricanes, WUWT responded with an outpouring of certainty that no model could possibly be right.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468441&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bBKAwsyku7qQj8_4IUWVUdSyH2DwxItQEYrNfgjsjVc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny Vector (not verified)</span> on 06 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468441">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468442" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449403571"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Executive summary of 2015 Deep Decarbonization report:</p> <p><a href="http://deepdecarbonization.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/DDPP_EXESUM1.pdf">http://deepdecarbonization.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/DDPP_EXESUM1…</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468442&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="GlC4WvXSUORjvEhBuZI7gTyyapfr7wLl20T1EmS0e40"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Christopher Winter (not verified)</span> on 06 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468442">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468443" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449520858"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Colour me skeptical. This is a simulation from the same team that added 'carbon releases' from 'fires started from a global nuclear holocaust' to nuclear power's carbon footprint.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468443&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5HQ2oBL6RMrn9otRvHYdqNqhuLB8rv0imUEL8Socz8c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 07 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468443">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468444" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449524434"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Greg,</p> <p>You make some points about the problems of nuclear power plants in your introductory paragraph, point which are widely disseminated, but not as solid as they seem.</p> <p>On the output-variation problem, the wiki page on Load Following Power Plants has information that this is not a problem with modern nuclear power. </p> <p>The refueling problem is not really a problem at all, as refueling is a scheduled activity, and so can be mitigated by forward planning.</p> <p>All plants have outage problems, but it is interesting that the few plants capable of operating well during the polar vortex were the nuclear ones.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468444&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sZQnC_PQcY1FcOok7dLNNN1Bu4gI_HOt8V3laQz_fSM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 07 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468444">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468445" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449550218"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon: "This is a simulation from the same team that added ‘carbon releases’ from ‘fires started from a global nuclear holocaust’ to nuclear power’s carbon footprint."</p> <p>Citation needed. I looked through several recent papers by Jacobson that mention nuclear power, and didn't see that anywhere. In any case, if he makes equally egregious assumptions in this paper they should be pretty easy to find. Then you can argue about the paper rather than about the author.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468445&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FKL3GSxDwjfCqOVPswJhQQXVLcW3d5NzjFlRhsqc7Gc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny Vector (not verified)</span> on 07 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468445">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468446" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449554216"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon,</p> <p>"load-following power plants"</p> <p>I've offered, over many years, what seems to me a good compromise solution in this endless and not helpful debate about different forms of FF-free electricity.</p> <p>1. Disincentivize, as they say, FF, through whatever means-- fees, shifting subsidies, and so on-- first step no matter what, of course.</p> <p>2. Require that the "utility" companies be restricted to maintaining the grid-- keeping the wires up, and allowing electricity to be equitably bought and sold by anyone, but not being involved in generation at all. The model is the highway system, UPS, ebay/amazon and so on, a pretty close approximation to a true free market. </p> <p>Now, if you and your fellow capitalists want to invest in a load-following nuclear plant, and compete on the open market for my consumer dollars, and my neighbor capitalist wants to install solar panels on his roof and do the same, we should end up with the most efficient resource allocation after things shake out.</p> <p>Do you have any objections to such a solution? Or, what is your alternative <i>plan</i>? It has to be a concrete plan that involves concrete policies, not handwaving.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468446&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="t5-q6r7szlRwrQybOOWxRxZgFt5JimkAbxDf0-vESZ0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468446">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468447" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449560272"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>1. Disincentivize, as they say, FF, through whatever means– fees, shifting subsidies, and so on– first step no matter what, of course.</p></blockquote> <p>The previous Australian government did that and they were replaced with a reactionary, conservative government that simply ran a self-serving scare campaign and reversed those disincentives for FF.</p> <p>This first step will NEVER succeed until there is bi-partisan political support for it. That is not likely while conservative politics is controlled by climate science denialists. Hello 3+℃ world.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468447&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="TWDAu5CMjCOq9lYbabGhVLbaIXepW6zI5hdSpkRcvew"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468447">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468446#comment-1468446" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468448" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449562983"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>28 chris o'neil,</p> <p>Not my problem. I proposed a way to resolve the debate about which non-FF electricity source would provide best outcomes.</p> <p>I'm not saying you are one, but you sound like a denialist/do-nothingist Loki Troll. You certainly aren't contributing anything positive to the discussion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468448&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cJcdCBjpsmdFKR3zj4K9Ojp0VIQT-M4osBq_SPb0deQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468448">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468449" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449585458"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra,</p> <p>the problem is that there is nothing new about your proposal to resolve the debate about which non-FF electricity source would provide best outcomes. And not only is it not new, it has already been done and it ignores the far more important political realities. For those reasons it certainly doesn't contribute anything positive.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468449&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XtmAhCiXlDim2scKOypGWCImj0FPrRVtkHrmR-HZ2tc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468449">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468448#comment-1468448" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468450" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449585751"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>By the way, the first step in solving a problem is to recognise the problem. In that sense I made a positive contribution to the discussion.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468450&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BynyHTHwZiRC8D83cqy4rchDvD1Eu16UtFs5zJDFcIw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468450">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468448#comment-1468448" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468451" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449598645"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Johnny Vector: "Citation needed. I looked through several recent papers by Jacobson that mention nuclear power, and didn’t see that anywhere."</p> <p>He explicitly states it in: </p> <p>*Effects of biofuels vs. other new vehicle technologies on air pollution, global warming, land use and water.</p> <p>*Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security.</p> <p>It may also factor in the calculations in more of his work. As an aside, his carbon footprint figures for nuclear are much, much higher than those of the IPCC.</p> <p>"In any case, if he makes equally egregious assumptions in this paper they should be pretty easy to find. Then you can argue about the paper rather than about the author."</p> <p>If I had the paper, yes, possibly egregious assumptions could jump out at me - if the model's workings are explicitly detailed.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468451&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Z2uGL2Sti9HiouQ4xYpTY2OCKhuoRCapE5CbQE6DvmU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468451">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468452" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449599243"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra, you make an unwarranted assumption in your reply to me:</p> <p>"Now, if you and your fellow capitalists want to invest in a load-following nuclear plant, and compete on the open market for my consumer dollars"</p> <p>I'm not a free-market capitalist. </p> <p>I believe that there are things that the nation state is good at, and things that the free-market is good at. Energy is one of the areas that I see as being in the domain of the nation state.</p> <p>I do not like capitalists who put panels on their roofs for a quick buck, because that buck usually comes out of other consumers' pockets.</p> <p>I do not think that the market will fix energy supply problems efficiently. The market cares about making money now, and let the future fend for itself. The market is closing nuclear power plants now, because fracked gas is cheaper - that is not a decision which reflects the impact of such gas on climate change or the environment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468452&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="hNGVMU6otE4gGhiKMKevI8YvVcqeWhipsxWR_n1SfF4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 08 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468452">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468453" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449638651"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon,</p> <p>"You and..." in this case is used metaphorically and ironically; it is intended to illustrate that people who claim nuclear is a good idea never want to bet their own money on it.</p> <p>Now, I'm obliged to make the same comment that I did to Chris-- you may not be a Loki Troll, but you sure sound like one. Whatever the case, I did make an assumption, which is that you wouldn't answer my question, and that you had no concrete proposal yourself as to how to deploy the technology you are espousing.</p> <p>Two for two.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468453&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="FvT5M7cj6OJnvCSSjOx1Fw0JuJ4eYugDGeOBvSdXvK8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 09 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468453">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468454" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449644394"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>mt says:</p> <blockquote><p>As for the rest of it, this certainly seems to be of the school that if we make enough unrealistically rosy assumptions, the problem goes away. Well, yeah.</p> <p>[...]</p> <p> Researchers who shrug and say it will be easy do us no favors.</p> <p>[...]</p> <p>But this paper contains no engineering and no economics, just a bunch of optimistic assumptions and a lot of handwaving.</p></blockquote> <p>I have to agree. It's another J&amp;D classic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468454&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="SFBbrQkCLv9UGIAQIa6NTH5kwUm-19FmA99pe7yAVyY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">BBD (not verified)</span> on 09 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468454">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468455" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449658692"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon: "He explicitly states it [ added ‘carbon releases’ from ‘fires started from a global nuclear holocaust’ to nuclear power’s carbon footprint] in:</p> <p>*Effects of biofuels vs. other new vehicle technologies on air pollution, global warming, land use and water.</p> <p>Okay, thanks. So then let's move on to whether that is an assumption so bad as to render not only that work but all his other work useless. He estimates 0–4.1 gCO2e/kWh for that particular, which is added to the lifecycle intensity of 9–70 and the opportunity cost of 59-106. So really, it doesn't make much difference.</p> <p>And let's look at that lifecycle intensity (9-70), about which you say "his carbon footprint figures for nuclear are much, much higher than those of the IPCC". </p> <p>The IPCC says "Total life-cycle GHG emissions per unit of electricity produced from nuclear power are below 40 gCO2-eq/kWh" (FAR4, WG3, Chapter 4, P. 269). (As it says in Jacobson 2009). So no, the IPCC number is right in the middle of his range. </p> <p>In any case, those numbers are half the opportunity cost. I will also note that this paper was about biofuels and transportation, and I'm fair certain its conclusions are unchanged if you ignore nuclear proliferation and use the IPCC intensity of 40. </p> <p>If you want to comment sensibly, you really should read the report. "I don't have the paper" doesn't really work as an excuse when a direct link has already been provided.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468455&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Y3p30DPP0JIDbjf3sHPx0WD0JSaaU0vfl5yeqMLrQhE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Johnny Vector (not verified)</span> on 09 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468455">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468456" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449682081"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra,</p> <p>How was I to know you were only talking metaphorically?</p> <p>I also answered your question, as I said: </p> <p>"Energy is one of the areas that I see as being in the domain of the nation state."</p> <p>I agree there should be a price on carbon.</p> <p>I think nation states should be building nuclear, hydro, tidal, geothermal as fast as possible.</p> <p>Nation states should be making it possible for investors to roll-out the more cheaply constructed renewables as fast as practicable - but the cost of grid connection should come from these investors.</p> <p>"Now, I’m obliged to make the same comment that I did to Chris– you may not be a Loki Troll..."</p> <p>Wow! From what I remember of Loki, that's a pretty nasty insult. You need to dial back your judgement threshold from "near instantaneous" to " let's see how this discussion goes"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468456&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="rXaY-v-5n3p8-Y_vm3GRDGkqnlSDIDO6yMU3HEc2euY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 09 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468456">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468457" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449726580"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon,</p> <p>Loki: Mischief maker, trickster.</p> <p>Lots and lots of comments on this subject are from people whose goal is to tear down renewables and promote do-nothingism. AKA "concern trolling" or "poison pill"-- "if you liberals really believed climate change is a problem you would stop sending your Black Helicopters to prevent building of nuclear plants."</p> <p>As to the substance: You aren't reading very carefully as well as not thinking very carefully about the economic principles here. </p> <p>You want the cost of grid connection to come from investors in solar and wind? That's exactly what my plan does, and it is stated very clearly in my comment.</p> <p>Where you go wrong is in this vague hand-waving "energy is in the domain of the nation-state". The domain of the government in this context is the <b>natural monopoly</b> which is the grid. There is no natural monopoly in generation of electricity, so there is no benefit to having the government be involved beyond health and safety regulation.</p> <p>So, the government should either operate or strongly regulate the grid, on the model of the highway/road system and rules of commerce for common carriers. If you don't understand what I am talking about, do some research. </p> <p>And along the lines of doing some research-- you sound as if you have consumed some of the right-wing pseudo-economic koolaid with respect to what a free market is. It doesn't mean "free to establish monopolies and cheat the consumer". Free markets, as Adam Smith and other real economists understood the term, can only exist if the government is deeply involved in maintaining balance.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468457&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BHgkbfVDKDdKWyso7g-MDErFzfJsSf4pEu6UYhxuglI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 10 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468457">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468458" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449783779"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra: "And along the lines of doing some research– you sound as if you have consumed some of the right-wing pseudo-economic koolaid with respect to what a free market is."</p> <p>Or maybe, seeing that I come from the UK, and grew-up in the semi-state control / semi-capitalist society that existed there until recently, I see the "free market" as being the crazy stuff that goes on in the States.</p> <p>Zebra: "Free markets, as Adam Smith and other real economists understood the term, can only exist if the government is deeply involved in maintaining balance."</p> <p>Thank you for the info. Of course, many governments are not interested in maintaining balance, and worse, given the multi-national nature of the big players in the market - government control can be a very hard thing to exercise.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468458&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="AjZmDyteqD58Cr7VvI9LyLYxgqhBd9QeCMr1rm8aCsg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 10 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468458">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468459" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449783944"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Zebra: "You want the cost of grid connection to come from investors in solar and wind? That’s exactly what my plan does, and it is stated very clearly in my comment."</p> <p>Well, then we are in agreement. Additionally, I did not get that understanding from your comment.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468459&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PbteCpTjhDA9EzeXK8eT1jjCz5gYTBR3TldcXKFXeX4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Eamon (not verified)</span> on 10 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468459">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468460" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449814033"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Eamon,</p> <p>Trickster indeed! And it's next you'll be telling me this magical "Kingdom" where you grew up has universal health care, and the police walk around without guns, and other such fantasies...</p> <p>Anyway, what puzzles me about people like you and Chris is that if you are so pessimistic about the government really doing something to reduce CO2, what's the point of quibbling over nuclear v wind v solar? </p> <p>I'm being pragmatic-- <i>if</i> we had a government that would deal with step 1, what would work for step 2 in the USA? It certainly isn't sending the troops in to force construction of nuclear plants, even if such a one-size-fits-all approach wasn't p-poor engineering.</p> <p>I'm saying that if we had a functioning, even slightly forward-thinking government, we could pass certain kinds of legislation that would encourage necessary changes and promote innovation. <i>Real</i> free markets can do that, and it gives political cover to those on the dark side.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468460&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="W5_tHfn6DqLqGFDJqoF0O-Fh3jR-KYUexmb2A0NIs3E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span> on 11 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468460">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <div class="indented"> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468461" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1449822753"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>zebra:<br /> </p><blockquote>I’m being pragmatic– if we had a government that would deal with step 1</blockquote> <p>You're not being pragmatic. You're just being hypothetical. And an offensive name-caller as well. Frankly your response to me was just pathetic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468461&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="PgOZ34a_btW5tvtsjPiWJYz010GdMnD7UmUjYaYrJ-o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris O&#039;Neill (not verified)</span> on 11 Dec 2015 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468461">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> <p class="visually-hidden">In reply to <a href="/comment/1468460#comment-1468460" class="permalink" rel="bookmark" hreflang="en"></a> by <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">zebra (not verified)</span></p> </footer> </article> </div> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468462" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452421982"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Great conversation going on here.<br /> The problem if intermittent and less than ideally predictable supply can be addressed a number of ways. One is big huge batteries, which are costly and otherwise problematic. There are various other storage methods using water and air and things that can hold heat or “hold cold.” </p> <p>This is actually very correct. Somewhere I read that a student named Anders has created some storage system that can store huge amount of energy for longer period of times and also this molecule system is non-toxic so a much better option than lithium batteries.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468462&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Opg6v4cH67175a4U4LkAqryoywTEtcCqJ7jxIfA7vzU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ricardo Teamor (not verified)</span> on 10 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468462">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1468463" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1452718318"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>As an occasional lurker, I just wanted to jump in and say that zebra, you’re being really unfair. It is reasonable for people to consider the political hurdles that a plan might have. It’s possible to disagree with a particular plan without being a troll or a nut.</p> <p>I think you’ve responded really unfairly to the other posters here, and I’m pretty amazed at how calmly they’ve taken this unjustified response. Pull your head in. Get over yourself. People having minor quibbles over your plan aren’t automatically trolls.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1468463&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jEvovN8F1TNSK9vNk7nE8QE6veBhjjP730afgowC1F0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Magpie (not verified)</span> on 13 Jan 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1468463">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/gregladen/2015/12/04/incredibly-important-finding-on-renewable-energy%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 04 Dec 2015 11:01:00 +0000 gregladen 33775 at https://scienceblogs.com Whose world is it, anyway? https://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/30/whose-world-is-it-anyway <span>Whose world is it, anyway?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first." -<em>Mark Twain</em></p></blockquote> <p>So, you've been around a while, seen all sorts of things, and learned an awful lot about the world, solar system and Universe that we live in. But how well do you know it, <em>really</em>?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/8Planets.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17397" title="8Planets" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/8Planets-600x211.jpg" alt="Eight Planets to Scale" width="600" height="211" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Lunar and Planetary Laboratory.</p> </div> <p>To scale and in order, these are the eight planets you know so well. There are the four rocky worlds of our inner solar system: Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars, and the four gas giants that dominate the outer solar system: Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. With our huge assortment of terrestrial and space telescopes, as well as interplanetary space probes such as Cassini, Messenger, the Mars missions and, of course, Voyager, we've taken some amazing images of every one of these worlds.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Voyager.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17398" title="Voyager" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Voyager-600x450.jpg" alt="Voyager" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: flickr user hedgehog3457.</p> </div> <p>My question for you, however, is <strong>can you recognize them</strong>? A long time ago, I made a quiz to see whether you could tell <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2008/03/31/mars-or-arizona/">Mars from Arizona</a> in pictures, and it was difficult even for Arizonans to get them all right. Let's see if you can solve the mystery of which image is of which planet?</p> <p>Below, I've got for you eight images in random order, one each of a portion of each of the eight planets. The images are all in true color, where available, or altered to be as close to true color as I can make them. Let's get right to it, and see what you can come up with!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Blue-One.jpeg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17400" title="Mystery Blue One" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Blue-One-600x524.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 1" width="600" height="524" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #1 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Blue-Two.jpeg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17401" title="Mystery Blue Two" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Blue-Two-600x600.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 2" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #2 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Desert.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17402" title="Mystery Desert" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Desert-600x385.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 3" width="600" height="385" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #3 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Growth.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17403" title="Mystery Growth" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Growth-600x400.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 4" width="600" height="400" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #4 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-One.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17404" title="Mystery Peak One" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-One-600x600.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 5" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #5 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-Two.jpeg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17405" title="Mystery Peak Two" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-Two-600x523.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 6" width="600" height="523" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #6 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-Zee.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17406" title="Mystery Peak Zee" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Peak-Zee-600x626.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 7" width="600" height="626" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #7 of 8.</p> </div> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Rings.jpeg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17407" title="Mystery Rings" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Mystery-Rings-600x585.jpg" alt="Mystery Image 8" width="600" height="585" /></a> <p>Mystery Image #8 of 8.</p> </div> <p>What have you got? Leave a comment and let me know if you've figured it out, and bonus points if you can identify <em>where</em> on each planet the image was taken!</p> <p>For those of you that need a hint, I'll tell you what the origin of the seven non-terrestrial pictures were: two are from NASA's Voyager spacecrafts, two are from NASA's Cassini spacecraft, one is from NASA's Mars Opportunity Rover, one is from NASA's Magellan spacecraft, and one is from the NASA Messenger mission. Three of these -- Cassini, Opportunity and Messenger -- are still ongoing, for what it's worth.</p> <p>Can you solve the mystery?</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Sat, 06/30/2012 - 07:11</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/arizona" hreflang="en">Arizona</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/atmosphere" hreflang="en">atmosphere</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/clouds" hreflang="en">clouds</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/desert" hreflang="en">desert</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/earth" hreflang="en">Earth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/eight" hreflang="en">Eight</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/jupiter" hreflang="en">Jupiter</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mars-0" hreflang="en">Mars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mercury" hreflang="en">Mercury</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/neptune" hreflang="en">Neptune</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/planet" hreflang="en">planet</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/planets" hreflang="en">Planets</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/rings" hreflang="en">rings</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/saturn" hreflang="en">saturn</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar-system" hreflang="en">Solar System</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/storm" hreflang="en">storm</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/surface" hreflang="en">Surface</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/system" hreflang="en">system</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/turbulence" hreflang="en">Turbulence</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/uranus" hreflang="en">Uranus</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/venus" hreflang="en">Venus</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/voyager" hreflang="en">Voyager</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510651" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341056071"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Uranus, 2. Earth, 3. Mars, 4. Jupiter, 5. Pluto, 6. Mercury, 7. Venus, 8. Saturn. What are the other little rocky bits in the first pic?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510651&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="JE8FurBcg5mJNaemy8S-A5_Fw7a1Pgp_wz5ns3DPmeM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Diana Fleming (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510651">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510652" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341056373"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>#1 Neptune - Clouds<br /> #2 Mars - Victoria Crater<br /> #3 Earth - Namib Dessert<br /> #4 Saturn - Mega Storm<br /> #5 Venus - Sapas Mons<br /> #6 Mercury - Kuiper crater<br /> #7 Jupiter - Just a guess as I figured the rest out....<br /> #8 Uranus - Rings</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510652&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ql4VFl4x8u_2IE_9XrTZHovtQSpP84E6EKzRHiwKeLc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mikek (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510652">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510653" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341058456"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) High, fast clouds on Neptune courtesy Voyager 2.<br /> 2) View from Opportunity at Endeavor (?) crater.<br /> 3) Earth, South America near Atacama Desert (?).<br /> 4) Obvious guess is Jupiter so I'm going with... Saturn via Cassini.<br /> 5) Looks like a Magellan image of Venus.<br /> 6) Mercury Messenger of Mercurian crater.<br /> 7) Cassini image of a Saturn polar region (southern?).<br /> 8) F ring of Saturn via a Voyager.</p> <p>This was fun, thanks. After years of teaching this stuff, it's finally beginning to sink in.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510653&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="M9c2ZiA--iAOtrp-sL3LDEN6mkI8VS5I-03vj8SDDkY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cope (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510653">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510654" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341058564"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Hmmm, don't know how my 8) turned into a SF.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510654&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="L4J_v3dbl2IfEgJA47jqSRiEWj0408Q6OBF390nB4So"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cope (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510654">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510655" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341058605"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, now I see...</p> <p>Curse these newfangled internets...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510655&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yyhBVu1cKioe_xvZKu277xmH9LdupbS5HGG8E2lpz2I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cope (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510655">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510656" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341058499"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1-Neptune, 2-Mars, 3- Earth ,4-Jupiter, 5-Venus, 6-Mercury, 7-Uranus, 8-Saturn</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510656&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Th11yag95cA14uqrYcE_duPDsPG_YDAr_Qqtbv0Jg-0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">busymind (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510656">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510657" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341059258"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Neptune<br /> Mars<br /> Earth<br /> Jupiter<br /> Venus (twin cyclones near one of the poles)<br /> Mercury<br /> Uranus<br /> Saturn</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510657&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eB6Mdmiu76mq1bcSnF1bg3VQc2S8a9P45nMXu2omx0k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Brian Lane (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510657">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510658" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341067103"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Neptune - Bluest planet<br /> 2. Earth - Anything Green<br /> 3. Mars - Red<br /> 4. Jupiter - Belt and Bands (Jet streams)<br /> 5. Venus - Radar image of Volcano<br /> 6. Mercury - New Colors from the latest mission<br /> 7. Uranus? - Really? You chose this picture?<br /> 8. Saturn - Ring System</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510658&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="O3VfeNKiP5zS-iRnZhymtof_F2prdlu8B0_PBkJ4MYQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Sanchez (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510658">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510659" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341076430"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Without looking at anyone else's answers, I have:</p> <p>Neptune<br /> Mars<br /> Mars<br /> Saturn<br /> Venus<br /> Mercury<br /> Jupiter<br /> Saturn</p> <p>Now going over the other answers, it seems 2 and 3 are a point of contention. Let's take a look at the images closely.</p> <p>Image #2 has a very aqua-blue sky. More greenish than than the deep blue we see on Earth. However, Mars' atmosphere is mostly red, is it not? Confusing... Also, there are lots of neat little details in the rocks there, showing horizontal smoothness from recent wind/dust erosion, but no obvious evidence of liquid water erosion, which would be in a vertical arrangement. Also the dust deposits in all those little cracks would have been washed away of there was any significant rain on this world. Although there are a lot of areas on Earth where hardly any rain falls at all. I'm torn on this one being Earth or Mars. I'll go with Mars.</p> <p>Image #3, I believe here we are looking at a screenshot from a 3D mapping program like Google Earth (which includes a Mars counterpart). The terrain is very red here, and there is good evidence of water erosion in the side of the mountain at the bottom. Mars does show water erosion in its history, but to what extent and in which regions I am unsure of. Another clue: lots of water erosion but no signs of life. No trees or greenery, or even the remains of that are obvious here. I'm going with Mars.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510659&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="HeTtXKpCwYLTP284QP7etxe8dG9D9EDDBbz6iDiTPdc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mick (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510659">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510660" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341077210"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I'm going to change my answer for image #3 to Earth, after investigating Mikek's assertion that it is the Namib desert. Thos e fluffy-looking bumps that I thought were exposed rocky features are actually trees. No evidence of life my left nut.</p> <p>Google Earth (and not Mars) confirmed this!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510660&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RrnFG5PsrXhP5cvo5pyTh46JPLPqnFhvEffT-jALc_E"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Mick (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510660">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510661" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341095952"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Neptune<br /> 2. Mars<br /> 3. Earth<br /> 4. Saturn<br /> 5. Venus<br /> 6. Mercury<br /> 7. Jupiter<br /> 8. Uranus</p> <p>I took more of a technical approach. Filtered by gas/rocky, on which we landed, which have rings, by structure/color, resolution.</p> <p>Some would call that cheating, but I learned some things in process and I think that's all that matters.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510661&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="A7LqEQU_GKNvWVRzyFsjupbPkGxmvkIg0NPm9jVTpmI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Ales (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510661">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510662" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341098579"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Neptune (can't miss that deep blue colour)<br /> 2. Mars (looks slightly false-coloured)<br /> 3. Earth (you deliberately chose a reddish one to confuse us hehe)<br /> 4. Saturn (looks like that recent monster storm)<br /> 5. Venus (only terrestrial option left after I decided on #6)<br /> 6. Mercury (too many craters for a thick atmosphere like Venus)<br /> 7. Jupiter (looks like a polar region)<br /> 8. Uranus (next best ring system after Saturn)</p> <p>Some of those reasons are dodgy but I think it works :D</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510662&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RZyMuTae-P0172MpxwjSzTFxQ9SsbVFJnU0Hl-vhQAs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darkgently (not verified)</span> on 30 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510662">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510663" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341117970"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Scorpio<br /> Aries<br /> Leo<br /> Aquarius<br /> Moon<br /> Taurus<br /> Gemini<br /> Cancer</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510663&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Ms-28X83s_Qme3wXY8wQw9qwm8hseWUzbwV12z9RwLk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Billy Dumask (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510663">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510664" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341121099"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1 Neptune - by exclusion by #8. The flow field direction remind of Uranus axial tilt, but those are likely high altitude clouds and the photo can be tilted any which way anyway.<br /> 2 Mars - Victoria crater.<br /> 3 Earth - by exclusion by #2.<br /> 4 Jupiter - typical cloud belts.<br /> 5 Venus - typical terrain.<br /> 6 Mercury - those mysterious blue tints.<br /> 7 Saturn - a Cassini shot of a pole.<br /> 8 Uranus - ring system got a better Voyager shot, I think.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510664&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Xnc7IzHe9edonklmPam2BpLklWTgHSs9RzOgL1DOTGU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Torbjörn Larsson, OM (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510664">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510665" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341121165"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>... a better shot than Neptune's. It's not Saturn's large and well photographed, and I doubt it is Jupiter's which is pretty simply structured I think..</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510665&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="evLEzNPtioPYkcsyUqCJOVpG1hAvKgXIancOiR9_a88"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Torbjörn Larsson, OM (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510665">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510666" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341122142"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Going over the other responses, I see there is a Saturn mega storm I'm not acquainted with. The weak colors could be what you get when you process Saturn images.</p> <p>I guess it is possible to switch 4 &amp; 7, because I can't remember how the pole regions are supposed to look. Except that unexpected pentagonal north (IIRC) pole of Saturn, and I assumed this to be the other one. </p> <p>But I have to choose without googling images, so I'll throw myself at the spear of superior external knowledge, and switch:</p> <p>4 Saturn, 8 Jupiter.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510666&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KSW5qY8vHLydhQqhTJ57UsdOFObAReNoOs25tjPuf_Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Torbjörn Larsson, OM (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510666">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510667" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341122228"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Sigh! 7 Jupiter (why isn't there an edit facility anyway).</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510667&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="u8xwEq4nyk5SH281cBXVXWcpxbfPXh1awgPSyYucuMo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Torbjörn Larsson, OM (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510667">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510668" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341128510"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Many of you have done very well; I am impressed!</p> <p>Here are the complete results:</p> <p>1.) The limb of Neptune, as photographed 2 hours before closest approach by Voyager 2, in 1989.<br /> 2.) Victoria crater, on Mars, as photographed by the Opportunity rover. This one is a bit false-color, but not as deceptive as the images of the Cape St. Vincent feature in that crater that you can find via google.<br /> 3.) Earth, in the desert of Namibia. Part of the Awasib mountain range, this mountain desert was deliberately chosen because of how alien the terrain looks.<br /> 4.) This was cropped from an amazing storm on Saturn, which raged for 200 days from December 2010 to August 2011. Imaged by Cassini, you can read more about the storm <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/02/03/saturns-super-storm-staggers-s/">here</a>.<br /> 5.) This is one of the seven great mountains -- Sapas Mons -- on Venus, as imaged by the Magellan spacecraft. Colors were adjusted to remove the false-red color that Magellan's image processing returns.<br /> 6.) Mercury's atmosphere-less surface is imaged here by Messenger. The moon-like terrain is a dead giveaway, and this is Kuiper Crater in particular.<br /> 7.) This unusual view of Jupiter, photographed by Cassini, is from a flyover of our largest planet's North Pole, which is why it's so unusual! Cassini has even taken <a href="http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/videos/movies/Jup_No_pole_full.mov">movies</a> of Jupiter's north pole; check it out for yourself!<br /> 8.) A 96-second-long timelapse shot of Uranus' rings, by Voyager 2 in 1986, allows us to identify 11 separate rings as part of its structure. Not bad!</p> <p>Hope you liked the quiz!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510668&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="vbF23dU0bmLa26vl1LVc4A73JE5uJcSzX5oefp9a_QQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510668">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510669" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341173718"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan, in the Jupiter's north pole movies you link to, why does the very center of the pole change so dramatically towards the end of the movie? Is this some kind of electromagnetic jovian storm?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510669&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="58mGkQ5lcnmHVPS6vqka3vibo1BCYSjL7Ri4uv78RLI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tihomir (not verified)</span> on 01 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510669">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510670" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341208780"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1-Neptune<br /> 2-Earth<br /> 3-Mars<br /> 4-Saturn<br /> 5-Venus<br /> 6-Mercury<br /> 7-Jupiter<br /> 8-Uranus</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510670&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qulozurn_x8ar6ePPSfGyWnEgt-PuoiVjpKieF1kQdQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CharlieG (not verified)</span> on 02 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510670">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510671" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341208838"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Damn, the blue sky in #2 threw me off haha</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510671&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="c1BYnkOOjHmweznYr4JLDGz2iH3R5A5d9bRbVvsBtU0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CharlieG (not verified)</span> on 02 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510671">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510672" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341280659"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1) Neptune<br /> 2) Mars<br /> 3) Earth<br /> 4) Jupiter<br /> 5) Venus<br /> 6) Mercury<br /> 7) Saturn<br /> 8) Uranus</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510672&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="aTTviPJPVcOBYSWKSZMrhQH7s6xga7R_kqu8lDr5yDE"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Astroprogenus (not verified)</span> on 02 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510672">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510673" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341280975"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>I should add that I hadn't looked at anybody else's. I don't really need to post up an explanation I guess, but now that I see other's doing it...well the first one is from Voyager II of the clouds in Neptune's upper atmosphere, 2 is the Opportunity photo of what looks to be Victoria crater, 3 is earth and I don't know what took that one, 4 is jupiter taken by voyager, 5 is some region of venus (not sure where) taken by Magellan, 6 is of some crater on Mercury taken by Messenger, 7 is Saturn's south pole taken by cassini, and 8 is voyager II photo of the rings of Uranus.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510673&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="4LKkXyop-ottwF2V1WNV5p5rB3dJDx905OW_wQy_YH4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Astroprogenus (not verified)</span> on 02 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510673">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510674" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341301661"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Neptune<br /> 2. Mars -- but only because I think I recall seeing this picture from the Lunar Rover pictures.<br /> 3. Earth<br /> 4. Jupiter<br /> 5. Earth? Not sure about this one.<br /> 6. Mercury<br /> 7. Saturn<br /> 8. Saturn but it could be Uranus's rings</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510674&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="_3ZTuMDF5YnKsfw6X6vB9C72CVrSMJrZoz7fSJiESqI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">The Pencil Neck (not verified)</span> on 03 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510674">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510675" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341316110"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are rings around Uranus!!!</p> <p>In 2850 it will be renamed to avoid such childish humour...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510675&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="q-XwC9tqw0qGcFPw4vUCOfqpe4kg6ZmTniCscz9hf98"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">wow (not verified)</span> on 03 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510675">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510676" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341408057"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Texas.<br /> 2. Texas.<br /> 3. Texas.<br /> 4. Texas.<br /> 5. Texas.<br /> 6. Texas.<br /> 7. Texas<br /> 8. I'm not sure, but I'd say Texas.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510676&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="RT_RuiXcNtFijYzxG0YU_KvC7Oy4jJHyNpgazVEIXbg"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jason DeGraaf (not verified)</span> on 04 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510676">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510677" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341431965"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>nr 5 has to be the axismountain of discworld.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510677&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZrFEeoSx8V00xXxniOJ1uVqdm7x9Nu0ZHVxehhO6k6w"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">true scotsman (not verified)</span> on 04 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510677">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510678" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341433672"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>1. Neptune<br /> 2. Mars<br /> 3. Earth<br /> 4. Jupiter<br /> 5. Venus<br /> 6. Mercury<br /> 7. Saturn - south pole<br /> 8. Uranus - rings</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510678&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0awGvskVYAvUzcEo7wfVR_nSt9IW7SlyMRAsrIzBuTI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Phil graves (not verified)</span> on 04 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510678">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2012/06/30/whose-world-is-it-anyway%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Sat, 30 Jun 2012 11:11:43 +0000 esiegel 35443 at https://scienceblogs.com It's hard to leave this world https://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world <span>It&#039;s hard to leave this world</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Some prophecies are self-fulfilling<br /> But I've had to work for all of mine<br /> Better times will come to me, God willing<br /> Cause I can't leave this world behind" -<em><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjSn8Egxa70">Josh Ritter</a></em></p></blockquote> <p>You sure can't leave this world behind. At least, not very easily. The reason for it, of course, is gravity.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/gravity_earth_graph/" rel="attachment wp-att-17334"><img class="size-full wp-image-17334" title="gravity_earth_graph" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/gravity_earth_graph.jpeg" alt="Earth's gravitational well" width="600" height="390" /></a> <p>Image Credit: Physclips, via the University of New South Wales' School of Physics.</p> </div> <p>Here on the surface of the Earth, the <a href="http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/gravity.htm">gravitational potential well is pretty large</a>; large enough that there's no easy way off. Sure, you can pour a huge amount of energy into a rocket to try and overcome this gravitational potential energy, but I think it's more fun to think about what would allow us to leave <strong>for free</strong>.</p> <p>In principle, bringing a large gravitational mass close to our surface might allow us to "jump ship" to the other world. Unfortunately, where we are, even our closest neighbor, the Moon, isn't really all that close.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/nasa_voyager_earth_moon/" rel="attachment wp-att-17333"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17333" title="NASA_Voyager_Earth_Moon" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/NASA_Voyager_Earth_Moon-600x600.jpg" alt="Image of Earth and Moon" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, from the Voyager missions.</p> </div> <p>You might be used to seeing pictures like this, but these are false-perspective pictures, where the Earth and Moon are nearly lined up with the camera. If we illustrated the Earth-Moon system <a href="http://calgary.rasc.ca/solarsystem.htm">to scale</a>, it looks far less impressive.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/earth_moon-4/" rel="attachment wp-att-17332"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17332" title="Earth_Moon" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Earth_Moon-600x102.gif" alt="Earth-Moon system" width="600" height="102" /></a> <p>Image credit: Larry McNish, of the RASC Calgary Centre.</p> </div> <p>The Moon is practically useless for helping us escape the Earth's gravity. It's both small and low in mass, a combination that gives it a low surface gravity: just 17% of what we have here on Earth, <em>and</em> the Moon is quite far away, at least relative to the size of the Earth.</p> <p>That might be the way it is <em>here</em>, in our Solar System, but as we're just starting to learn, the Universe is an extremely diverse place, where every combination of planets and solar systems we can think of <a href="http://xkcd.com/1071/">very likely exist</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/neptunecompared/" rel="attachment wp-att-17335"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17335" title="neptunecompared" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/neptunecompared-600x450.png" alt="Neptune and Earth" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, retrieved from Universe Today.</p> </div> <p>For example, maybe there's a solar system out there where it isn't small, rocky planets that fill up the inner orbits, but a mix of Earth-like, rocky worlds and <a href="http://www.universetoday.com/22058/neptune-compared-to-earth/">also gas giants</a>, some of which are even closer to us than our closest planet, Venus, when it reaches perigee.</p> <p>Wonder what <a href="http://www.washington.edu/news/articles/astronomers-spy-two-planets-in-tight-quarters-as-they-orbit-a-distant-star">that might look like</a>?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/image_medium/" rel="attachment wp-att-17336"><img class="size-full wp-image-17336" title="image_medium" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/image_medium.jpeg" alt="Neptune from a super-Earth" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Image credit: David Aguilar, Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.</p> </div> <p>From even a significantly greater distance than our Moon is, a gas giant planet, even a smallish one like Neptune, would appear huge and towering in the night sky. Our Moon, the biggest single object in the night sky (by angular size) at just over half a degree, would be dwarfed by the way a planet like this appears.</p> <p>And a skyline would <em>certainly</em> <a href="http://www.washington.edu/news/articles/astronomers-spy-two-planets-in-tight-quarters-as-they-orbit-a-distant-star">have a different look</a> to it.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/image_medium-1/" rel="attachment wp-att-17337"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17337" title="image_medium-1" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/image_medium-1-600x427.jpg" alt="Seattle skyline with a gas giant" width="600" height="427" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, Frank Melchior (frankacaba.com), and Eric Agol (University of Washington).</p> </div> <p>Fortunately, we <a href="http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2012/pr201220.html">don't have to speculate</a> anymore! The star Kepler-36 was just announced to have <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120621152307.htm">two planets orbiting it</a>: one is an Earth-like world just 50% larger than our planet, while the other is a Neptune-sized world, nearly four times our size and eight times as massive.</p> <p>The truly amazing thing about these two planets is that they are <a href="http://www.space.com/16246-alien-planets-night-sky-kepler-36-infographic.html">so close together</a>! While the Earth-like world orbits its star from a distance of 11 million miles, the Neptune-like world is just <strong>1.2 million miles</strong> farther out, making these the two closest planets <a href="http://www.space.com/16246-alien-planets-night-sky-kepler-36-infographic.html">ever discovered in the galaxy</a>!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/exoplanets-kepler-36c-120621e-02/" rel="attachment wp-att-17338"><img class="size-full wp-image-17338" title="exoplanets-kepler-36c-120621e-02" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/exoplanets-kepler-36c-120621e-02.jpeg" alt="Kepler-36 system" width="600" height="575" /></a> <p>Image credit: Karl Tate / Space.com, info via the Harvard-Smithsonian CfA.</p> </div> <p>Every 97 days, the inner, Earth-like world overtakes its next-door, Neptune-like world in its orbit. At that time, the planets are separated by a mere 1.2 million miles, or just 5 times the Earth-Moon distance. This is still too far to leap from one world to the next, but it's on the right track.</p> <p>You see, if you wanted another planet to come by, if its surface gravity was higher than Earth's, we could <em>literally</em> get pulled off of our planet and get sucked into the gravitational well of the other world! If you brought the <em>real</em> Neptune close enough to the Earth, this is exactly what would happen.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/neptunecompared/" rel="attachment wp-att-17335"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17335" title="neptunecompared" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/neptunecompared-600x450.png" alt="Neptune and Earth" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, retrieved from Universe Today.</p> </div> <p>Like Saturn and Jupiter (but not Uranus), Neptune has a higher surface gravity than Earth does. If the surface of Neptune came within about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of Earth's, the gravitational force from Neptune would <em>exceed</em> the gravitational force from the Earth, and objects on the side of the Earth facing the gas giant would be more attracted to the giant planet than to Earth, <strong>and would begin accelerating towards it</strong>.</p> <p>Conversely, if you took a planet with <a href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/06/09/what-would-happen-if-earth-and-mars-switched-places/">lower surface gravity</a> than the Earth and brought it close enough, someone on that world would find that our gravitational attraction was greater than their planet's, and so they'd start accelerating <strong>towards <em>our</em> world</strong>!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/pia02570/" rel="attachment wp-att-17341"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17341" title="PIA02570" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/PIA02570-600x390.jpg" alt="Earth and Mars" width="600" height="390" /></a> <p>Image Credit: NASA / JPL-Caltech, via <a href="http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA02570.jpg">http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA02570.jpg</a>.</p> </div> <p>Mars, for example, would only need to come within about 2,000 miles of Earth for someone on Mars to begin accelerating in our direction. There may even be alien worlds out there known as <a href="http://www.moddb.com/mods/maelstrom/images/binary-planet">double planets</a> (or <a href="http://www.moddb.com/mods/maelstrom/images/binary-planet">binary planets</a>) that are close enough for something like this to happen.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/binary_world_2-1/" rel="attachment wp-att-17342"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17342" title="Binary_World_2-1" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Binary_World_2-1-600x360.jpg" alt="Binary World" width="600" height="360" /></a> <p>Image credit: Moddb.com, for Maelstrom.</p> </div> <p>Of course, these are very <em>very</em> close distances for things as fragile as planet. Think about how small and far away the Moon is, and now think about how powerful the tides are on Earth. Now imagine replacing the Moon with something much more massive and about 100 times closer. Now, remember that gravity is an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law">inverse square law</a>, meaning that if it's 100 times closer, the force is <strong>10,000 times stronger</strong>.</p> <p>In other words, it isn't just you that will be accelerated towards an alien world; the world with the lower surface gravity itself <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/24/when-worlds-really-do-collide/">will begin to be torn apart</a>!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/pia13347/" rel="attachment wp-att-17343"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17343" title="PIA13347" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/PIA13347-600x480.jpg" alt="Binary planets around a binary star" width="600" height="480" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / JPL-Caltech.</p> </div> <p>Earthquakes and volcanoes will certainly abound, but it's more likely that even more severe changes would happen to such a world. It would be unlikely to be spherical, and -- if they were comparable in mass -- <em>both</em> worlds would likely be <a href="http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2011/dec/ssg05.html">deformed by their mutual gravity</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/samplebinaryplanet/" rel="attachment wp-att-17344"><img class="size-full wp-image-17344" title="SampleBinaryPlanet" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/SampleBinaryPlanet.png" alt="Sample Binary Planet" width="600" height="320" /></a> <p>Image credit: Guildworld.com.</p> </div> <p>It's conceivable that even for the case of Kepler-36, the inner, Earth-sized planet has no atmosphere, because it's been <strong>stolen</strong>, or siphoned off, by the close-by, larger-massed Neptune-sized world! Atmospheric thievery: in this Universe, it very likely happens!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/contactbinary/" rel="attachment wp-att-17345"><img class="size-full wp-image-17345" title="contactbinary" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/contactbinary.jpeg" alt="Contact Binary" width="600" height="400" /></a> <p>Image credit: Penn State University / Wolfram.</p> </div> <p>It happens for <a href="https://www.e-education.psu.edu/astro801/content/l6_p6.html">binary stars</a>, and there's no reason to think there aren't binary planets out there, too, for which the same thing happens.</p> <p>So it might be hard to leave this world, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that's a <em>very</em> good thing!</p> <p>(And if you think I got the idea to write about this from <a href="http://www.tvfanatic.com/shows/futurama/episodes/season-9/a-farewell-to-arms/">this week's Futurama episode</a>, I've just got one thing to say to you.)</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world/hypnotoad/" rel="attachment wp-att-17331"><img class="size-full wp-image-17331" title="hypnotoad" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/hypnotoad.gif" alt="All Glory to the Hypnotoad" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Image credit: KnowYourMeme.com.</p> </div> <p>All glory to the <a href="http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/146005-hypnotoad">Hypnotoad</a>!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Fri, 06/22/2012 - 15:16</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/gravity" hreflang="en">gravity</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar-system" hreflang="en">Solar System</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/barycenter" hreflang="en">barycenter</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/binary" hreflang="en">binary</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/center-mass" hreflang="en">center of mass</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/double" hreflang="en">double</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/earth" hreflang="en">Earth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/exoplanet" hreflang="en">exoplanet</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/exoplanets" hreflang="en">Exoplanets</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/futurama" hreflang="en">futurama</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hypnotoad" hreflang="en">hypnotoad</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/kepler" hreflang="en">Kepler</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/kepler-36" hreflang="en">kepler-36</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/lobe" hreflang="en">lobe</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mars-0" hreflang="en">Mars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/neptune" hreflang="en">Neptune</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/roche" hreflang="en">roche</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/star" hreflang="en">star</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/super" hreflang="en">super</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/super-earth" hreflang="en">super-earth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/superearth" hreflang="en">superearth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/system" hreflang="en">system</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/volcano" hreflang="en">volcano</a></div> </div> </div> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-categories field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Categories</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/channel/education" hreflang="en">Education</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510543" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340428595"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Awesome! Yes, even the glorious Hypnotoad.</p> <p>I guessed from the feed it would be about launching, but assumed it would be some etheric discussion on how Earth is large enough to make it habitable but small enough to make chemical rocketry possible. (Presumably superEarth astronauts have to go for nuclear rockets, or perhaps elaborate schemes to lift the launchers above most of the atmosphere. Or maybe neither of those work. Definitive post material IMHO.)</p> <p>Instead I get treated to a stellar performance of how juggling planets are good for thought!</p> <p>But, what was Harvard-Smithsonian thinking when they lent their science-cred to an infographic with "a Supermoon"? <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/05/02/the-supermoon-stuff-again/">The 'supermoon' that is ~ 1 % closer in orbit, and therefore not visible even if a twin moon would be besides for comparison</a>? At that, I let out a supermoan.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510543&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I8BsPiF6vuRRdiAwTuVQ2h9fRrknxm0sI8x2q5W8TTU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Torbjörn Larsson, OM (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510543">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510544" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340429243"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For a free trip out of the gravity well, my favorite solution is the Beanstalk. I'm really, REALLY hoping material science will advance quickly enough that we can build a space elevator in my lifetime. Yeah, it still requires energy, but that can come from the ginormous solar panels on the outbound end.<br /> Ethan, do you have anything to say on the subject?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510544&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="l_9cY48_EC1xU0pYbPbEGpL5oJSxb0fE6XNt8255BSU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Artor (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510544">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510545" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340440549"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Typo?</p> <p>"Earthquakes and volcanoes will certainly about"<br /> You may have meant "will certainly abound".</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510545&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="uHnCvMx2ANWv2dpOE8WqFdoLnHyDUUn8HxBhQr_AO8Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JosephK (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510545">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510546" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340441878"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>XKCD had a great graphic illustrating gravity wells: xkcd.com/681/</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510546&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="w8ARkI4JqayQ0DvwnX9lR87M4sE1furJ2HKEoLeEm0o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">david (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510546">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510547" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340449073"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Torbjörn, although I tend to agree with you from my own experience, the 14% difference in angular size between a "super"moon and a smaller full moon is noticeable to some, who have let me know that they can, in fact, tell the difference, and that if I spent as much time looking at the moon as they did, I'd notice, too. :-)</p> <p>Artor, I would love for there to be a space elevator in our lifetimes; hopefully carbon nanotube technology will continue to increase to the point where construction of such a structure becomes feasible!</p> <p>JosephK, yes, thank you, that is fixed.</p> <p>david, xkcd makes some of the best graphics like that I've ever seen. That is indeed a good one!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510547&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="bPLtOYSudMcI5Zjczxc74DCiER05dUmCD0fj3DIaJYQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510547">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510548" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340474636"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Sure, you can pour a huge amount of energy into a rocket to try and overcome this gravitational potential energy, but I think it’s more fun to think about what would allow us to leave for free."</p> <p>Free? What does free mean in a universe of unlimited resources and unlimited human imagination? Free is what we can make happen; that could NOT previously be done at any price, by any means.</p> <p>Of course, we are here on Earth, so our planetary neighbors are what they are. So moving Neptune closer to Earth is not the free-way. How do we leave Earth, to quote Malcom X, "By any means necessary." (finances be damned)! </p> <p>Time may or may not be an illusion (Einstein); but money (like limited resources) is surely a fiction. (Yes, acknowledging that the necessity of sustainability of planet Earth is of prime important).</p> <p>Well the Hale Bopp comet cult had an idea; let's pause for a sincere moment of silence. Their sad end was not a free-way.</p> <p>But the Pentagon is looking for a free-way. "100 Year Starship: An interstellar leap for mankind?" <a href="http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120321-searching-for-a-starship">http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120321-searching-for-a-starship</a><br /> "Is a Pentagon plan for a spaceship travel outside our solar system a crackpot idea, or a visionary blueprint for reaching the stars?.. 100YSS purpose is clear and focused-human travel beyond our solar system and to another star system.. “So we thought a 100-year time horizon, not for the study, but 100 years of doing research and development, gave us some practicality of developing technologies that we couldn’t foresee today.”.. But the 100YSS is not a fringe activity started by a bunch of dreamers. It has the backing of two high-profile US agencies – the space agency Nasa and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa), the US military agency that helped create the internet and satellite-based navigation..."</p> <p>As for funding of this DARPA led 100YSS program, don't believe those who say the project is under funded. Just remember, that at least 3 Hubble telescopes were built.</p> <p>There was Hubble and then there were these two recently acknowledged Hubble calibre telescopes for satellite spying of people <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/science/space/repurposed-telescope-may-explore-secrets-of-dark-energy.html?pagewanted=all">http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/science/space/repurposed-telescope-ma…</a></p> <p>Does anyone believe that only 1 James Webb (strength) Space Telescope is being built. Surely two additional such super spy satellite telescopes are being built or already have been launched.</p> <p>So what about DARPA's 100YSS plan. Do you think it is well funded? When you consider that 2 of the 3 Hubble calibre telescopes were built for national security (spying), let me ask youj, "Are you feeling luck?" and "Who's your Daddy?"</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510548&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="moEqQFOs_chqerwxpfnYNJqfzu6-eeSotGNVQCkZRp4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510548">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510549" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340498129"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>A space elevator turns out to be a very promising structure. Just look at one of the best in field of theoretical physics talk about it: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYYdh84pFng">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYYdh84pFng</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510549&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="sGL2VAkbxgftX2-b4dVrQGbgN5-Xhus2z5q7hWTA01o"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chadwick (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510549">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510550" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340499394"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"Free? What does free mean in a universe of unlimited resources and unlimited human imagination"</p> <p>He's not talking about money.</p> <p>He's talking about "no net energy expended".</p> <p>Stuff goes up, stuff comes down. If both have the same mass, gravitational potential energy is exchanged equally and the lift to orbit hasn't cost any energy.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510550&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0Ikg2zddAOygUpkMFPZaeKMgIkXkitwspKCU720zpRw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510550">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510551" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340515025"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan's thought experiment begins "Here on the surface of the Earth... it’s more fun to think about what would allow us to leave for free." But "If you brought the real Neptune close enough to the Earth, this is exactly what would happen" is not exactly a "Stuff goes up, stuff comes down" kind of argument. It is NOT a thought experiment about our planet Earth; it is about some other hypothetical solar system. And if it is about our planet Earth in our solar system; then it is certainly not a “no net energy expended” thought experiment.</p> <p>But having said that, I understand Ethan's point and Wow's point.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510551&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MCMYDyKxdY6wcWK-VcOLQ9snTlWxprw4Q_1iklfrT_c"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510551">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510552" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340523668"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Yes it IS a stuff goes up, stuff goes down argument, except this case, it's going up from earth and down to Neptune.</p> <p>Exactly the same thing.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510552&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="F1aMNqIOUjoY-ItaP-cRquSWnRorWPX_j9fmLbe6mbY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 24 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510552">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510553" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340598811"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You're correct " it IS a stuff goes up, stuff goes down argument"; BUT AFTER AND NOT UNTIL "you brought the real Neptune close enough to the Earth".</p> <p>But bringing Neptune close to Earth is a pretty BIG ASSUMPTION if your stated objective was: "Sure, you can pour a huge amount of energy into a rocket to try and overcome this gravitational potential energy, but I think it’s more fun to think about what would allow us to leave for free."</p> <p>So do the calculation, does it take more "energy (for) a rocket to try and overcome this gravitational potential energy" of the Earth or to move the orbit of Neptune so that "the surface of Neptune came within about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of Earth’s". </p> <p>The unintended consequences of moving Neptune "within about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of Earth’s surface" are pretty catastrophic both for any astronaut trying to leave "the surface of the Earth" by overcoming the "gravitational potential... for free." The astronaut in space suit instantly flies off the surface of Earth only to collide with Neptune and ditto every other leaving creature on planet Earth as our atmosphere and oceans leave planet Earth instantly.</p> <p>Ethan of course agrees, " the world with the lower surface gravity itself will begin to be torn apart!"</p> <p>So a person trying to teleport the planet Neptune to ""within about 1,000 miles (1,600 km) of Earth’s surface" would be either a delusional psychiatric patient (of the Hale Bopp comet variety) in a space suit trying to leave Earth's gravity and drift into a tour of the galaxy OR a mad scientist trying to destroy planet Earth. Depending upon one's talent as a science fiction writer either story could be comedy or tragedy?</p> <p>Now back to Ethan's final answer, "it (is) hard (not energy free) to leave this world (Earth), but.. that’s a very good thing (because of so many unintended consequences)!" I think my paraphrase is in the spirit of Ethan's meaning.</p> <p>Yes Ethan's answer is a pretty good answer.<br /> 100YSS is also a pretty good answer.</p> <p>Another answer is:<br /> "Less than 10,000 of the 100 billion star systems in the Milky Way galaxy have inhabited planets. It has long been known that the only effective means of exchanging vast cultural knowledge between such worlds is by physically transporting people of character. Similarly on Earth, vast amounts of corporate data are most effectively backed-up by trucking computer reels to secure sites like Iron Mountain.<br /> When crossing the galaxy, the limitations of physics, economics and biology cannot be ignored. There is no faster than light travel. Starships are unimaginably expensive. Space travel is horrendously hazardous to living organisms. One can never return from such an uncertain galactic voyage. The psychological stress of galactic travel is enormous. Few choose to be such Travelers. The Magicians are those who smuggle Travelers across the galaxy.<br /> Knowledge of Magicians is systematically suppressed on all but one planet. Upon the planet of La, the existence of one Magician, Xavier, is too deeply woven into the fabric of cultural mythology to be denied. The Magician of Time tells the story of Xavier's unexpected return to the planet of La." My mother asked me if this was true; what would you tell your mother?</p> <p> I miss you mom.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510553&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="VK43Y79qFm9IXGEedKNTcboVDm7BZOxDwV_LDl98H08"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510553">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510554" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340599311"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"You’re correct ” it IS a stuff goes up, stuff goes down argument”; BUT AFTER AND NOT UNTIL “you brought the real Neptune close enough to the Earth”."</p> <p>Nope, it's STILL a "stuff goes up, stuff goes down" even before you actually do it.</p> <p>It remains true that this is what happens EVEN IF YOU DON'T DO IT.</p> <p>I don't actually have to drop a bowling ball from the leaning tower of piza to say that it will fall down.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510554&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XEHCZZDhBCSxWH2jy1kpMbyIeSDmGK16Ej3dudBKILc"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510554">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510555" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340599350"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Oh, yea, that's a real argument-whiner. "Yo momma's fat".</p> <p>That's always a clincher when you want to prove a point.</p> <p>Moron.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510555&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="7LiEjjdrdb0meFGbTtUemWLJo70VA3mnjLbkccDw7CM"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510555">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510556" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340627909"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wowland is a place without humor; every Wow assumes that every point is meant to be proved. Nevermind, Godel's incompleteness theorem. In Wowland, the Wow's are aligned in two political parties; those who wait for Godot and those who do not. Neither side can prove whether Godot actually exists or not; but the evidence is tantalizing and the theories are competitively, well sometimes absurd. But no one laughs or gets a joke in WowLand except the tourists.</p> <p>Yes of course in Wowland, the tourists are all idiots and their mommas are all fat. Yes those Wows are very serious about this, about everything. I know, I can't help laughing either.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510556&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="wWDoBevxg9cx9KsSxsgRVPaKld4iV5_EKeX1ZqSIHMk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510556">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510557" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340665903"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Chelle, you're wrong: light DOESN'T form rods or cones at all, they form packets of quantised energy.</p> <p>You're insistence that light forms both cones and rods is proof that you are an idiot!</p> <p>PS I guess now you're being insulting, you'll stop whining about it, yeah? Nah, why should you bother being consistent - you haven't bothered before.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510557&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZnaAoJlsBUN9Mlkod5z4Mgd9NdZRbsRIfM-xhzIZUYs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510557">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510558" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340678016"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OKThen thinks talking in the third person makes it not his fault.</p> <p>Having re-read your earlier post, I'd misread: "I miss your mom".</p> <p>But I guess you'd prefer to snark away, right? Because you can't stand someone telling you you're wrong, you need to show that nobody is any better than you, right?</p> <p>Pathetic.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510558&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Br74AsOCcsfQwyG8KARzDKjF_3O_SN90hgRvCsfzQss"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 25 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510558">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510559" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340695459"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Enjoyed this post very much, Ethan. So here's my question: Given the rules of gravity, as you laid out here, what are the odds that we might discover a moon that is capable of supporting life, orbiting a gas giant planet, ala the moon of Endor on Star Wars? Is it physically possible for such a moon to exist without having its atmosphere stolen or be too deformed or too wracked by seismic forces? What say you?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510559&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="XFn2WpKgf6JtJiP0zsjLeJjOxZcx8qp-kdHeCykrJTs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">JB (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510559">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510560" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340696287"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Mostly our air stays on because the velocity of the gasses at our distance from the sun (the temperature at which it would attain thermal equilibrium) is not significant compared to the escape velocity from the earth (11kps).</p> <p>The bigger difficulty would be having a world that wasn't so ripped by tidal forces that it was too unstable for life to develop.</p> <p>If we dropped in on one, this may not be a problem (may even be a benefit: we won't be displacing any species which may have developed if we hadn't tromped all over the place). But for life to develop into something meaningfully complex, it needs a few billion years of stability where it will grow.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510560&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="IdQxIFYv8hoBGkWi7577V9bs2nK4aJ2f4OKGD07t1L0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510560">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510561" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1340720004"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>There are plenty of examples of moons around gas giants in our system that are not so wracked with tidal forces that it's inconceivable they would be stable enough for life. Io seems an unlikely place, sure. :) </p> <p>In some, the tidal heating may be just enough to allow liquid water where the sun's rays would be insufficient. Europa and Enceladus* specifically. Titan is the only moon I know of with a substantial atmosphere, but I don't think that means it's the biggest obstacle.</p> <p>Overall seems quite possible for a moon to be as habitable as a planet. </p> <p>* Which I don't think I'll ever be able to stop pronouncing "enchiladas" in my head and for the record Firefox agrees is pretty similar. :)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510561&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="msT9iGIfPilaTlaSbhs-QRWGpAbvdmgrdC3epuMxgMw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">CB (not verified)</span> on 26 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510561">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510562" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1341379545"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wouldn't planets that close to each other collide?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510562&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="5VGFH9b0YBkrrW3b3OfwSfcKi8nuxcc9RENc3u6-15I"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">WLU (not verified)</span> on 04 Jul 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510562">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2012/06/22/its-hard-to-leave-this-world%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:16:51 +0000 esiegel 35439 at https://scienceblogs.com Incredible Star Trails, from Earth and Beyond https://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond <span>Incredible Star Trails, from Earth and Beyond</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Building one space station for everyone was and is insane: we should have built a dozen." -<em>Larry Niven</em></p></blockquote> <p>Here on the solid ground of the Earth, the Sun and Moon rise and set on a daily basis. During the hours where the Sun is invisible, blocked by the solid Earth, the stars twirl overhead in the great canopy of the night sky.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/star_trails_1/" rel="attachment wp-att-17167"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17167" title="star_trails_1" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/star_trails_1-600x345.jpg" alt="Star trail" width="600" height="345" /></a> <p>Image credit: Chris Luckhardt at flickr.</p> </div> <p>In the northern hemisphere, they appear to rotate around the North Star, while in the southern hemisphere, the stars appear to rotate about the South Celestial Pole. The longer you observe -- or for photography, the longer you leave your camera's shutter open -- the longer and more spectacular are the paths that the stars trace out.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/201205-perth-observatory-southern-startrails/" rel="attachment wp-att-17168"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17168" title="201205-Perth-Observatory-Southern-Startrails" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/201205-Perth-Observatory-Southern-Startrails-600x408.jpg" alt="Southern Star Trails" width="600" height="408" /></a> <p>Image credit: Roger Groom at <a href="http://www.AstroPhotography.com.au">www.AstroPhotography.com.au</a>.</p> </div> <p>This, of course, is because the Earth rotates on its axis. The North and South Celestial Poles are aligned with that axis, and so the stars appear to, with a 24-hour period, rotate about that same axis.</p> <p>But perhaps, you might think, you <em>wouldn't</em> suffer those same trails from outer space. Not being bound to the surface of the Earth, the stars would appear to be stationary, while the Earth beneath you would be the only thing that rotated. <a href="http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=42770">Where would you go</a> to look and test this?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/iss022-e-068726_xlrg/" rel="attachment wp-att-17169"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17169" title="ISS022-E-068726_xlrg" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/ISS022-E-068726_xlrg-600x410.jpg" alt="ISS Cupola" width="600" height="410" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA Earth Observatory / International Space Station / Johnson Space Flight Center.</p> </div> <p>To the International Space Station, of course! The relatively new cupola, shown from the outside (above) and the inside (below), allows ISS astronauts to get a prime view of Earth and the 360° horizon, <a href="http://www.gravityloss.com/2010/11/the-future/">all at once</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/tracy_caldwell_dyson_in_cupola_iss/" rel="attachment wp-att-17170"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17170" title="Tracy_Caldwell_Dyson_in_Cupola_ISS" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/Tracy_Caldwell_Dyson_in_Cupola_ISS-600x399.jpg" alt="Tracy Dyson in the ISS Cupola" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, of Tracy Caldwell Dyson, via Wayne Hale.</p> </div> <p>If this cupola-type structure in space looks familiar to you, that's because you've probably seen something <em>very</em> much like it, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away...</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/tumblr_kxzzlnddys1qzyhb5o1_500/" rel="attachment wp-att-17171"><img class="size-full wp-image-17171" title="tumblr_kxzzlnDdys1qzyhb5o1_500" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/tumblr_kxzzlnDdys1qzyhb5o1_500.jpeg" alt="Was the cupola REALLY based on a TIE fighter?" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: George Lucas / LucasArts / <a href="http://www.jrbassett.com">www.jrbassett.com</a> / #pleasedontsueme.</p> </div> <p>But I digress. Like practically every one of Earth's satellites, the <a href="http://hico.coas.oregonstate.edu/gallery/gallery-instrument.shtml">International Space Station</a> makes a nearly perfect, circular orbit just a few hundred kilometers above our surface. Since it's in low-Earth orbit, it <a href="http://hico.coas.oregonstate.edu/gallery/gallery-instrument.shtml">zips around the Earth</a> -- a more than 25,000 mile journey -- in just 90 minutes.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/issorbit/" rel="attachment wp-att-17172"><img class="size-full wp-image-17172" title="ISSorbit" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/ISSorbit.jpeg" alt="ISS orbit" width="600" height="509" /></a> <p>Image credit: Oregon State University / U.S. Navy / Jasmine Nahorniak.</p> </div> <p>It <em>needs</em> to move at that speed; that's the only speed that will keep a satellite moving in a circular orbit just a small distance above the surface of the Earth!</p> <p>But this isn't the only motion happening; while this is going on, the Earth is rotating <em>beneath</em> you, with a 24 hour period!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/wtoearth2/" rel="attachment wp-att-17173"><img class="size-full wp-image-17173" title="wtoearth2" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/wtoearth2.jpeg" alt="As the world turns..." width="600" height="515" /></a> <p>Image credit: Sky &amp; Telescope.</p> </div> <p>You've got a couple of options as to how you'd run your spacecraft. One option -- and this is what the Hubble Space Telescope does, for example -- is to totally ignore the Earth. Have your spacecraft not rotate at all, point it at a target away from the Sun, one where the Earth will never get in your way, and observe it for as long as you like. Run your satellite like that, and, like Hubble, you'll never see a star trail.</p> <p>But the ISS wasn't built for looking into space, it was built for <a href="http://urthecast.com/">looking at the Earth</a>. And if you look down, from the ISS, what would <a href="http://www.scibuff.com/2009/05/21/iss-above-london-3/">you pass over</a>?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/iss-orbit/" rel="attachment wp-att-17174"><img class="size-full wp-image-17174" title="iss-orbit" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/iss-orbit.gif" alt="ISS orbit" width="600" height="300" /></a> <p>Image credit: Ground Track of the ISS during orbit #60142, via Heavens-Above.com.</p> </div> <p>Every ninety minutes, you'd pass from the equator up to the northern latitudes, then all the way down towards (but not quite flying over) Antarctica, and back towards the equator. Because the Earth is rotating, the longitude of the place you're passing over changes by about 20° every time the ISS passes.</p> <p>But because the ISS is designed to look down, rather than -- like Hubble -- not rotating at all, it rotates once every ninety minutes, so that the cupola I showed you earlier <strong>always points directly down at the Earth</strong>. Which means, if you stuck a camera in the cupola, you'd be able to see something akin to what <a href="http://youtu.be/TOQrx-7qgak">Alex Rivest has stitched together</a>, below.</p> <object width="600" height="338" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TOQrx-7qgak?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=16" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="600" height="338" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TOQrx-7qgak?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;start=16" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always"></embed></object><p> As you can see, the stars <em>do</em>, in fact, appear to rotate! This is <em>entirely</em> because of how the ISS rotates in space. Unlike the star trails on Earth, which would take 24 hours to make a complete circle, the trails on the ISS would make a complete loop in a mere 90 minutes, because that's the period of rotation of the ISS around the Earth. (Just like the period of the Moon around the Earth -- both the rotational period and the revolutionary period -- is one lunar month.)</p> <p>This is by design, of course, and it allows the ISS's cupola to always point at the Earth's surface, perfect for studying our own planet from space. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Rainbow#Show_details">But you don't have to take my word for it</a>, because I now have the photos to show you!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7197235782_37e7cd0b03_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17175"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17175" title="7197235782_37e7cd0b03_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7197235782_37e7cd0b03_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Star trails from the ISS" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Astronaut Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>NASA astronaut and photographer extraordinaire, Expedition 31 flight engineer Don Pettit, took a whole slew of image composites from in cupola of the International Space Station, and stacked them together to produce <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa_jsc_photo/sets/72157629726792248/with/7257866592/">these fabulous views of star trails from the ISS</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7197236116_3de6a4a0c2_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17176"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17176" title="7197236116_3de6a4a0c2_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7197236116_3de6a4a0c2_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Near the equator" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>How did he do it?  In <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa_jsc_photo/sets/72157629726792248/with/7257866592/">his own words</a>:</p> <blockquote><p>My star trail images are made by taking a time exposure of about 10 to 15 minutes. However, with modern digital cameras, 30 seconds is about the longest exposure possible, due to electronic detector noise effectively snowing out the image. To achieve the longer exposures I do what many amateur astronomers do. I take multiple 30-second exposures, then ‘stack’ them using imaging software, thus producing the longer exposure.</p></blockquote> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7197236836_8f40592c8a_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17177"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17177" title="7197236836_8f40592c8a_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7197236836_8f40592c8a_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Looking north?" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>Unlike on Earth, the International Space Station's star trails don't grab either the North or South Celestial Poles as the stationary points that the heavens appear to rotate about. Because the ISS doesn't rotate <em>with</em> the Earth, the points that appear to be stationary are the ones along the ISS's axis-of-rotation, which precesses 360° throughout the course of a year!</p> <p>In each composite photo, though, in addition to the stars and the star trails, there are some remarkable things to observed by looking <em>at the Earth</em>!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7197237418_755f756ef7_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17178"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17178" title="7197237418_755f756ef7_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7197237418_755f756ef7_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Star rain" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>Above, for example, you can see the greenish airglow of the atmosphere, as well as the yellow streaks of passing cities and blue speckles -- which, believe it or not, are <em>lightning</em> strikes -- dotting the image.</p> <p>The stars appear like rain, thanks to a narrow-angle photograph parallel to the International Space Station's direction of motion.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7197239570_374a3a5d11_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17179"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17179" title="7197239570_374a3a5d11_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7197239570_374a3a5d11_b-600x399.jpg" alt="More, please." width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>There's also, at much higher altitudes above Earth, a much fainter airglow that comes in a <a href="http://www.atoptics.co.uk/highsky/airglow2.htm">dim, red color</a>. That's due to oxygen atoms very high up slowly de-exciting over the course of the night. While the bright, thin green layer is from a layer of air 90-100 km in altitude, the red layer is from 150-300 km up, nearly as high as the station itself!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7216877416_8329cf7f51_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17180"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17180" title="7216877416_8329cf7f51_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7216877416_8329cf7f51_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Thunderstorm" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>As you may have guessed, a thunderstorm produces spectacular results on a time-lapse photo, with every single blue speckle representing a lightning bolt.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7216877764_0ab079b7cf_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17181"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17181" title="7216877764_0ab079b7cf_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7216877764_0ab079b7cf_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Calm" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>While over a calm region, a much more serene composite results. The "blur" you see in the upper-middle of the image? That's because the solar panels, necessary for powering the station, move as the ISS is in orbit, in order to maximize the power they receive from the Sun.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7216878128_d59931eba8_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17182"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17182" title="7216878128_d59931eba8_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7216878128_d59931eba8_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Planet in view" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>And while the stars may be dim, one object in the sky still appears incredibly bright: <strong>the Moon</strong>, visible above. Note how, without the Earth's atmosphere to refract and disperse the intense amount of light coming from it, there is no light pollution in the other parts of the sky resulting from the Moon!</p> <p>And finally, an example to show you that not even Don's amazing photography and photo-stacking is flawless; even his star-trails sometimes suffer from imperfections!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond/7257865176_d7b1bb23f9_b/" rel="attachment wp-att-17183"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17183" title="7257865176_d7b1bb23f9_b" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/7257865176_d7b1bb23f9_b-600x399.jpg" alt="Wides view" width="600" height="399" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Don Pettit / @astro_pettit on twitter.</p> </div> <p>All told, Don has created <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa_jsc_photo/sets/72157629726792248/with/7257866592/">26 of these image composites</a>, viewable on <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa_jsc_photo/">NASA's flickr photostream</a>. These trails are different yet similar to the ones taken on Earth, and now you know the science behind it, as well as what you're looking at.</p> <p>Now, go forth and enjoy them all!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Fri, 06/08/2012 - 13:02</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar-system" hreflang="en">Solar System</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stars" hreflang="en">Stars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/air" hreflang="en">air</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/airglow" hreflang="en">airglow</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astro" hreflang="en">astro</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronaut" hreflang="en">Astronaut</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/circle" hreflang="en">circle</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/composite" hreflang="en">composite</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/don" hreflang="en">don</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/earth" hreflang="en">Earth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/flickr" hreflang="en">Flickr</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/glow" hreflang="en">glow</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/green" hreflang="en">Green</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/image" hreflang="en">image</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/international" hreflang="en">international</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/iss" hreflang="en">ISS</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/lightning" hreflang="en">lightning</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/moon" hreflang="en">Moon</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nasa" hreflang="en">NASA</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/nasas" hreflang="en">NASA&#039;s</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/orbit-0" hreflang="en">orbit</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/orbits" hreflang="en">orbits</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/outer-space" hreflang="en">outer space</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/oxygen" hreflang="en">oxygen</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/panels" hreflang="en">panels</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/pettit" hreflang="en">pettit</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/photo" hreflang="en">Photo</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/photostream" hreflang="en">photostream</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/red" hreflang="en">red</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/space-0" hreflang="en">space</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/star" hreflang="en">star</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/station" hreflang="en">station</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/trail" hreflang="en">trail</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/trails" hreflang="en">trails</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stars" hreflang="en">Stars</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510394" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339188177"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>awesome - I just found a new batch of desktop wallpaper images!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510394&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="y6s9sA58WVfTl4jixnsSx3zNmmzL3IWI4Ep_HKeAKzs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">critter42 (not verified)</span> on 08 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510394">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510395" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339217391"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Really great blog!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510395&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ZcMQU99C6j6CR5obdsnnEzznnzLmo-6zkriOS5UiXsI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Shasta (not verified)</span> on 09 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510395">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510396" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339441301"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>the idea that these are actual pictures - and an actual video - of our planet taken from the fringe of its atmosphere feels, to me, completely unreal. I'm so used to seeing these things on Sci-Fi shows, where they show you a rotating panorama of another planet - the idea that those types of images can be generated by a camera rather than created digitally seems utterly bizarre.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510396&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="mfCYrtMVAjic3CvBAlrNBRm4WmJCoTe9kW-QTLf_T5A"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">NDJS (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510396">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510397" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1474580343"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>the fifth picture from the bottom has a number of broken star lines yet the adjacent star has no broken star track? Makes no sense. Suggests draftsman took too long a break. In addition, the star trails, usually congruent going into the same direction show some not part of the overall pattern of direction. What's up. I'd like to believe these pictures are untouched but I do have a brain and visual perception.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510397&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="yz0gM_zA8O1y4I8t4Vp3gO0eKXGpXzLMJ1TK3Vdp21k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">billy stargazer (not verified)</span> on 22 Sep 2016 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510397">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510398" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1486116725"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>the iss does not rotate on an axis if it did why is the planet always visible. how can the iss travel around the earth in 92 min and still have ground level star trails.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510398&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="iD3FUiW5x4u4aVzL7ryxSRMVc9Hoy2DrAwy9Wn4ZHF4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">cm baker (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510398">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510399" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1486124950"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>cm, get an adult to help. have them stand in the middle of the floor. You walk around, always facingone direction, never turning round. Say, for example, always facing the road at the front of the house. Do you always see that adult as you go round?</p> <p>No.</p> <p>Now try again and keep facing the adult in the middle of the room.</p> <p>Do you find yourself turning around to keep them in view as you circle them?</p> <p>Yes.</p> <p>That is how.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510399&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="6elAOqYc5Nc8yxZ4-YsX1Pni_u7NA5gUIY3TXg6nxq4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 03 Feb 2017 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510399">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2012/06/08/incredible-star-trails-from-earth-and-beyond%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:02:42 +0000 esiegel 35432 at https://scienceblogs.com How long does a Solar Eclipse last? https://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last <span>How long does a Solar Eclipse last?</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"The moon shuts off the beams of the sun as it passes across it, and darkens so much of the earth as the breadth of the blue-eyed moon amounts to." -Empedocles, ~450 B.C.</p></blockquote> <p>Less than two weeks ago, I saw <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/21/weekend-recap-my-annular-eclip/">my first annular eclipse</a>, with some spectacular results at the moment of maximum eclipse.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/one_ring_to_find_them/" rel="attachment wp-att-17072"><img class="size-full wp-image-17072" title="One_Ring_to_find_them" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/One_Ring_to_find_them.jpg" alt="Annular eclipse of May 2012." width="600" height="240" /></a> <p>From my first eclipse expedition, to False Klamath Cove, on the coast in northern California.</p> </div> <p>This happens, of course, because -- from our point of view -- the Moon appears to pass in front of the Sun, <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1785.html">blocking a fraction of the light</a> coming from it.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/490480main_transit_4096fd_best_full-1/" rel="attachment wp-att-17073"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17073" title="490480main_transit_4096FD_best_full-1" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/490480main_transit_4096FD_best_full-1-600x540.jpg" alt="Partial eclipse from space" width="600" height="540" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA / Solar Dynamics Observatory.</p> </div> <p>And, if you think about it just a little bit, you should be able to <em>guess</em> how long a Solar Eclipse lasts, from when the Moon first begins passing in front of the Sun until its journey across it is complete.</p> <p>How's that?  Well, you know that the Moon orbits the Earth about once a month; that's where we get the word <strong>mon</strong>th from!  (And <strong>Mon</strong>day, too, for those of you wondering.)  As the Earth both spins on its axis and orbits the Sun, too, it takes about one month for the Moon to <a href="http://www.hermit.org/eclipse/why_solsys.html">undergo a complete cycle</a> -- from new Moon to new Moon -- from our point of view.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/solsysphases/" rel="attachment wp-att-17074"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17074" title="SolSysPhases" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/SolSysPhases-600x375.png" alt="Solar System Phases" width="600" height="375" /></a> <p>Image credit: Ian Cameron Smith of Hermit Eclipse.</p> </div> <p>Let's round that off to 30 days, just to make things easy for ourselves.  Over those 30 days, to make (approximately) one revolution around the Earth, the Moon moves about 360 degrees through the sky, or 12 degrees a day.  Since we've got 24 hours in a day, that means the Moon moves through the sky, <em>relative to the other objects </em>(i.e., not bothering to deal with the Earth's rotation), about half-a-degree per hour.</p> <p>So, how big do the Moon and the Sun, as viewed from Earth, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse">appear on the sky</a>?</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/sunmoonsize/" rel="attachment wp-att-17075"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17075" title="SunMoonSize" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/SunMoonSize-600x428.jpg" alt="Relative size of the Sun and Moon" width="600" height="428" /></a> <p>Image + text credit: the Wikipedia page on Solar Eclipse.</p> </div> <p>Although the Moon and Sun vary in their angular sizes, due to the fact that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler%27s_laws_of_planetary_motion#First_Law">gravitational orbits are elliptical</a>, they both appear <em>approximately</em> to take up half-a-degree, each, on the sky.  Which, you'd think, since the Moon migrates <em>relative to the Sun</em> by half-a-degree per hour, would mean that the duration of a solar eclipse would be <del>about an hour</del> about <em>two</em> hours. The first hour would be about the time for the Moon to move from first contact with the Sun to totality, migrating by half a degree, while the second would be about the time for the Moon to move from totality to final contact.</p> <p>This is a simple, straightforward, and easily understood argument, and was first put forth to me by <a href="http://www.pheno.wisc.edu/~olsson/">this excellent physicist</a>.  (Thanks, Marty.)  But there's a problem here; <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/21/weekend-recap-my-annular-eclip/">I just saw a solar eclipse</a>, and it didn't quite last as long as that: more like just an hour and 40 minutes!  Other eclipses, on the other hand, can last well <em>over</em> two hours!</p> <p>So what gives?  The thing is, <em>we didn't do anything wrong</em> when we made the estimate, above. There's just a little bit more to the story.  To help us out, let's take a look at the annular eclipse as <a href="https://twitter.com/StartsWithABang/status/204951805199794177/photo/1">photographed from space</a>!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/atgillmcqai_oet/" rel="attachment wp-att-17076"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17076" title="AtgilLmCQAI_oET" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/AtgilLmCQAI_oET-600x398.jpg" alt="Annular eclipse from the ISS" width="600" height="398" /></a> <p>Image credit: Astronaut Don Pettit (@astro_pettit) on the International Space Station.</p> </div> <p>If we go and take a longer-range view of the Earth, such as the one that <a href="http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120530.html">the MTSAT satellite</a> took, we can get a handle on the scale of this dark spot.  We know how big the Earth is in diameter, so if we watch the <strong>dark spot</strong> and its motion from the eclipse, we can get a handle on exactly what's happening here.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/earthspot_mtsat_2249/" rel="attachment wp-att-17077"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17077" title="earthspot_mtsat_2249" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/earthspot_mtsat_2249-600x600.jpg" alt="Earth Spot from MTSAT" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Image credit: PHL @ UPR Arecibo, NASA, EUMETSAT, NERC Satellite Receiving Station, U. Dundee.</p> </div> <p>What they saw, from space, is this dark spot -- it isn't quite a <em>shadow</em>, just a place where significantly less sunlight hits the Earth -- moves across the face of the Earth at about 2,000 kilometers-per-hour.  And since we know it takes about an hour for the Moon to move half-a-degree across the Sun's disk, that means 4,000 kilometers is the distance the dark spot needs to move for you to see the Moon go from one edge of the Sun to the other.  (Just under, technically.)</p> <p>But something else is happening, simultaneously, as the shadow of the Moon passes across the face of the Earth.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last/h-a-rey/" rel="attachment wp-att-17078"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17078" title="H.A.Rey" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/06/H.A.Rey_-600x402.gif" alt="Illustration of rotation" width="600" height="402" /></a> <p>Image credit: Samuel J. Wormley.</p> </div> <p>The <a href="http://www.edu-observatory.org/eo/observing.html">Earth is rotating</a>!  If the eclipse occurred at the North Pole of the Earth, it <em>would</em>, in fact, take about that minimum amount of time for the Moon to move across the face of the Sun.  But if the eclipse were on the equator, all other things (like angular size of the Sun and Moon) being equal, it would appear to take <del>nearly <em>twice as long</em></del> significantly longer -- up to a half-hour longer -- because the spinning Earth, from your point of view, appears to push you in the same direction that the Moon's shadow moves across the Earth!  Don't believe me?  Check out Don Pettit's video of this, from the ISS!</p> <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QJ25zCJlUm0" frameborder="0" width="600" height="450"></iframe><p> <del>Where <em>this</em> eclipse was, almost exactly at 45 degrees N latitude, we got an eclipse of about 1 hour 40 minutes, which is exactly what you'd expect.</del> Other corrections to the time include, of course, the angular size of the Sun and the Moon, which can make a substantial difference from perihelion to aphelion. But if you want your best bet for a <em>long</em> solar eclipse?  Take the one closest to the equator, with an eclipse occurring at mid-day. A most impressive prediction, to be sure, but it really emphasizes that you need to take into account both the Moon's motion relative to the Sun <em>and</em> the Earth's rotation, if you want to predict the duration of the eclipse truly accurately.  Hope you'll remember this for <em>all</em> your solar eclipses!</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Fri, 06/01/2012 - 11:42</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar-system" hreflang="en">Solar System</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/annular" hreflang="en">annular</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/duration" hreflang="en">duration</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/earth" hreflang="en">Earth</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/eclipse" hreflang="en">eclipse</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/eclipses" hreflang="en">eclipses</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/length" hreflang="en">length</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/light" hreflang="en">Light</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/moon" hreflang="en">Moon</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/phase" hreflang="en">phase</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/revolve" hreflang="en">revolve</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/rotate" hreflang="en">rotate</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/shadow" hreflang="en">shadow</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/sun" hreflang="en">sun</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/time-0" hreflang="en">Time</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/total" hreflang="en">TOTAL</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510283" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338576616"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>If the Moon moves one solar diameter per hour, wouldn't an eclipse take TWO hours? One hour for the Moon to completely cover the Sun (for the leading edge to move from one side of the Sun to the other) and then another hour to uncover it (for the trailing edge)?</p> <p>At first I enjoyed your elegant explanation, but now it's bugging me ;)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510283&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="BBy9izqfFCgzrVr5CaS6psckkszSjkgezuzm8-78CXk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">darkgently (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510283">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510284" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338581718"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>You know, I was just on a walk, and was thinking about this, and now I think you're right.</p> <p>It's going to bug me, too, while I try and puzzle it out. The rotation is definitely a factor, but the fact that the Moon needs to move a whole degree through the sky has got to matter, too. Grr...</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510284&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="LgkMkezauz_NnDVSmisYyaFcxxyWo6MDj1YaOf4efrU"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510284">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510285" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338583794"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Alright, I think I've ironed out the details. Strikethrough where the mistakes were, corrections after-the-fact. No one's perfect, and let this be a lesson to all of us that I will occasionally screw up, and when I do, you should <i>definitely</i> call me on it.</p> <p>I will fess up to it <i>and fix it</i>!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510285&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="0j0qohl4PFK1dW3q4VQOuEGMLKAOuh1rU0hlwjmWp78"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510285">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510286" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338620761"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Of course, I always love videos of the Earth from the ISS, but it's really hard to tell anything about the rotation of the Earth because the major movement is due to the ISS. So if what we were supposed to look at was the shadow moving in the same direction as the clouds etc; that's actually just the camera platform moving.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510286&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="qzpo3dJu9mfvEbkmc1iZfNDqPOF4hLraaXrXC1qb-q8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Joffan (not verified)</span> on 02 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510286">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510287" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338673108"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan, at first I was surprized to see someone with your background write something so simply wrong. But then, it didn't take me long to start admiring you for admitting and correcting the mistake so openly. As you so often stated, this is one of the main principles in science. Enyone can make a mistake, but a true scientist is one being ready to accept the fact about being mistaken and correcting his/hew views accordingly! My compliments - keep writing!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510287&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="15DtrFyEsXZqjBYh3ZWQPXQt_T087ojXVlGeqrrdJoI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Tihomir (not verified)</span> on 02 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510287">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510288" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338711097"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>And now Asians, who can see the complete Venus transit this coming week, can calculate the distance from the Earth to the Sun :-)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510288&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OB5ZdI382ELH6jft_M4y_g1zohvxml4Bfjo6QrFph-4"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Stu Savory (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510288">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510289" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1403544629"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Change your name</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510289&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="jLNtn83uqoQ5XD2CgpRiY1kf0yeDta9uti_468iRCYk"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">J.A. (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510289">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510290" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1403544690"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Seriously</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510290&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="i98lxiTI8Yv03NElL0t4GW2aPsH5A7ydGq2D0vFq9jI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Jaguar A (not verified)</span> on 23 Jun 2014 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510290">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2012/06/01/how-long-does-a-solar-eclipse-last%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Fri, 01 Jun 2012 15:42:31 +0000 esiegel 35428 at https://scienceblogs.com Practically Everything Leaves Something Behind https://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind <span>Practically Everything Leaves Something Behind</span> <div class="field field--name-body field--type-text-with-summary field--label-hidden field--item"><blockquote><p>"Everyone must leave something behind when he dies, my grandfather said. A child or a book or a painting or a house or a wall built or a pair of shoes made. Or a garden planted. Something your hand touched some way so your soul has somewhere to go when you die, and when people look at that tree or that flower you planted, you're there." -<em>Ray Bradbury</em></p></blockquote> <p>Today is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day">Memorial Day</a> here in the United States, where we honor all the soldiers who have fought and fallen for our country. The peace and prosperity that I have enjoyed my entire life is because of a price paid, many times over, mostly by people I've never met. So it goes with the Universe, too.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/477859main_keplersinglepanelstill/" rel="attachment wp-att-17022"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17022" title="477859main_KeplerSinglePanelStill" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/477859main_KeplerSinglePanelStill-600x450.jpg" alt="Kepler 9 planets" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA Ames Research Center; artist's rendition of Kepler 9's planetary system.</p> </div> <p>Over here at <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/">Starts With A Bang</a>, I can think of no better way to celebrate it than by telling the story of what gets left behind by the stars that <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/04/26/so-youve-learned-that-the-sun/">live, die, and give life to the next generation</a> of stars and planets in the Universe. Because they didn't start as stars, of course.  They started as diffuse clouds of cold gas, long ago, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=YbdwTwB8jtc">that collapsed under their own gravity</a>.</p> <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YbdwTwB8jtc" frameborder="0" width="600" height="450"></iframe><p> When those clouds collapse, and reach a certain density, star formation occurs.  Out of this gas comes a whole variety of stars, dominated by hot, blue, massive stars, but full of the whole gamut of different young star types.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/heic0715a-7/" rel="attachment wp-att-17023"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17023" title="heic0715a" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/heic0715a-600x602.jpg" alt="NGC 3603 " width="600" height="602" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, ESA and the Hubble Heritage (STScI/AURA)-ESA/Hubble Collaboration.</p> </div> <p>Take a look at the core of this cluster, and look past the brightest, hot blue stars here in cluster <a href="http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/heic0715a/">NGC 3603</a>, and you'll find something typical of <em>all</em> newly formed star clusters.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/extreme-star-cluster-bursts-into-life-in-new-hubble-image/" rel="attachment wp-att-17024"><img class="size-full wp-image-17024" title="Extreme star cluster bursts into life in new Hubble image" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/StarClusterCore.jpg" alt="Core of the cluster" width="600" height="1043" /></a> <p>Cropped version of the full-sized original, retrieved from STScI.</p> </div> <p>Yes, there are the hot, massive, ultra-luminous blue stars, but there are far more of the less massive, Sun-like stars among them, and an even greater number of dim, red stars in the mix. This cluster, a mere 20,000 light years away (in our own galaxy), is a typical example of a star-forming region in the Universe.</p> <p>And every star in that image, just like every star ever formed in the Universe, will someday run out of fuel and die.  But what will each star leave behind?  Turns out, that's entirely dependent on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Morgan-Keenan_spectral_classification.png">how much mass your star has</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/morgan-keenan_spectral_classification-10/" rel="attachment wp-att-17027"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17027" title="Morgan-Keenan_spectral_classification" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/Morgan-Keenan_spectral_classification-600x217.png" alt="All star types" width="600" height="217" /></a> <p>Morgan Keenan Spectral Classification, retrieved from Wikimedia Commons.</p> </div> <p>The lowest mass stars, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_dwarf">Red Dwarfs</a> (or the M-stars, above), with 40% the mass of the Sun (or less), burn their fuel the most slowly.  While our Sun will live for billions of years, M-stars can live for many <em>trillions</em> of years, burning coolly and slowly through their fuel, eventually turning all their hydrogen into helium, and then simply contracting down in their entirety to form a degenerate ball of atoms: a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_dwarf">white dwarf star</a>.  More than 1,000,000 times denser than water and over 1,000 times denser than the <em>center of our Sun</em>, a white dwarf packs the mass of maybe a hundred thousand Earths into the volume of <em>less than one</em>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/sun_and_white_dwarf/" rel="attachment wp-att-17028"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17028" title="Sun_and_white_dwarf" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/Sun_and_white_dwarf-600x473.jpg" alt="Sun and White Dwarf" width="600" height="473" /></a> <p>The Sun and a white dwarf star modeled on IK Pegasi B, by wikimedia user RJHall.</p> </div> <p>That degenerate dwarf is all a Red Dwarf will leave behind. While M-stars are most stars -- about 75% by number -- they're also the least massive and arguably the least interesting: not a single red dwarf has been around long enough in our Universe to burn through all of its fuel. But the other types -- from K-class stars all the way up through the lower-mass B-stars -- will die in the same fashion our Sun will.</p> <p>Unlike M-stars, these stars burn through their fuel more rapidly, so the hydrogen in the outer layers never gets a chance to burn.  What's more, is that the helium in the core can fuse further into carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and sometimes even heavier elements: all the way up to iron for a few of these stars.  When they reach the end of their lives, the result is simply spectacular.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/hs-2004-27-a-full_jpg/" rel="attachment wp-att-17029"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17029" title="hs-2004-27-a-full_jpg" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/hs-2004-27-a-full_jpg-600x600.jpg" alt="Cat's Eye Nebula" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Image credit: NASA, ESA, HEIC, and The Hubble Heritage Team (STScI/AURA).</p> </div> <p>A <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_nebula">planetary nebula</a>, like the <a href="http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2004/27/image/a/">Cat's Eye Nebula</a> shown here, consists of the outer layers of a star of one of these types, blown off in the violent death-throes of such a star, spanning only a few thousand years.  The outer layers -- half the mass of a star, on average -- are made up of some 97% hydrogen, ideal for providing the fuel for future generations of stars, while the inner layers, made up of mostly Carbon and Oxygen, contract down to form a degenerate white dwarf.</p> <p>These white dwarfs -- the eventual fate of maybe 799 out of every 800 stars in the Universe -- will someday be so common that they will outnumber all the living stars in the Universe.  But not every star that lives will wind up as a white dwarf.  These rarities, the one-in-800 stars that are massive enough, will die in the most spectacular of explosion of all: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aysiMbgml5g&amp;feature=related">a type II supernova</a>!</p> <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aysiMbgml5g" frameborder="0" width="600" height="337"></iframe><p> All stars born with more than about 4-5 times the mass of our Sun have enough fuel in them that they cannot form white dwarfs at their center; the white dwarf itself <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrasekhar_limit">would be too massive</a>, and must continue towards an even denser state!  Instead, most commonly, the atoms themselves, normally made of protons, neutrons, and electrons, wind up <strong>collapsing almost entirely into neutrons</strong>, forming a tiny, ultra-dense ball <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star">known as a neutron star</a>.</p> <p>Because stars rotate, these neutron stars wind up spinning incredibly rapidly, and hence with incredible magnetic fields <em>trillions</em> of times what we find at the surface of our Sun. As these stars rotate, up to nearly 1,000 times per second, they send out electromagnetic radiation along the star's north and south poles. The stars that point one of their poles at us appear to pulse, anywhere between about 1 and 1,000 times per second, and hence we call them <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar">pulsars</a>.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/hs-2002-24-a-full_jpg/" rel="attachment wp-att-17030"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17030" title="hs-2002-24-a-full_jpg" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/hs-2002-24-a-full_jpg-600x600.jpg" alt="Pulsar at the Center of the Crab Nebula" width="600" height="600" /></a> <p>Optical/X-ray Image composite credit: NASA/CXC/HST/ASU/J. Hester et al.</p> </div> <p>The oldest, fastest pulsars are some of the best natural clocks in the Universe; you can look away for over a year and then look back, and you'll know whether the pulse you're looking at is a billion pulses into the future or a billion-and-one. Only recently have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock">atomic clocks</a> passed pulsars as the best clocks in the Universe. What's more, is that it isn't just the hydrogen-rich outer layers of a supernova that get blown off in a stellar death like this; it's many of the heavier elements, too.  In fact, type II supernovae are where practically all of the elements found on Earth originated!</p> <p>But neutron stars aren't the fate of all type II supernovae, just most of them.  The rarest of all star types -- the most massive O-stars -- can actually have three different fates, depending on their masses.  If your star is too massive to produce a neutron star, because even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolman%E2%80%93Oppenheimer%E2%80%93Volkoff_limit">neutron stars have a mass limit</a>, you will get <a href="http://jila.colorado.edu/~ajsh/insidebh/schw.html">a black hole</a> to go with your supernova instead!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/schwplain_331/" rel="attachment wp-att-17031"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17031" title="schwplain_331" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/schwplain_331-600x450.jpg" alt="Black hole from JILA" width="600" height="450" /></a> <p>Image credit: JILA / Andrew Hamilton / University of Colorado.</p> </div> <p>And this is true, unless your star -- like maybe only one out of a billion stars -- is more massive than 130 times our Sun is.</p> <p>Because if you get more massive than that, your star can die in a very special type of explosion, known as a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair-instability_supernova">Pair-Instability Supernova</a>, where a pressure drop at the core of a star causes runaway thermonuclear reactions, destroying the entire star and leaving <a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2000/0015multi/">absolutely nothing</a> behind!</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/e0102multi_chandra/" rel="attachment wp-att-17032"><img class="size-full wp-image-17032" title="e0102multi_chandra" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/e0102multi_chandra.jpeg" alt="SNR E0102-72" width="600" height="499" /></a> <p>Image Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/SAO, Optical: NASA/HST, Radio: CSIRO/ATNF/ATCA.</p> </div> <p>But there is one more possible fate, for the star types so massive that it's thought we <em>don't even have <strong>one</strong> like it in our galaxy</em>!  If a star is more than 250 times as massive as our Sun, the star undergoes tremendous amounts of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photodisintegration#Hypernovae">photodisintegration</a>, where the entire core of the star collapses into a black hole, and except for a couple of highly collimated jets, there isn't even a hint of an explosion -- much less a supernova -- at all.</p> <div style="width: 610px;display:block;margin:0 auto;"><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind/blockworkrosettagrb-imagesrcolivepith_olivepit00130-tif/" rel="attachment wp-att-17033"><img class="size-medium wp-image-17033" title="/block/WORK/ROSETTAGRB/.IMAGESRC/OLIVEPIT/H_OLIVEPIT00130.tif" src="/files/startswithabang/files/2012/05/96281main_GRB-DestroyStar1C-600x405.jpg" alt="Early stages of a Hypernova occurring in a 250+ solar mass star" width="600" height="405" /></a> <p>Image Credit: NASA / SkyWorks Digital.</p> </div> <p>Rather, the <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0618rosettaburst_prt.htm">parent star is destroyed</a> and a very massive black hole is created in the most energetic single-star event known: a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypernova">hypernova</a>!</p> <p>And so, in memory of all the stars that have ever lived, now you, too, know what it is that they've left behind.  For those of you who <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/04/26/so-youve-learned-that-the-sun/">enjoyed the children's version</a>, consider this the one for adults: this is the beauty of the Universe inherent in the death and life of every star. Without all of this, we never would have gotten here, and billions of years in the future, the matter that makes us up will spread out among the cosmos, where it will create future generations of stars, planets, and possibly, once again, life.</p> </div> <span><a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a></span> <span>Mon, 05/28/2012 - 14:31</span> <div class="field field--name-field-blog-tags field--type-entity-reference field--label-inline"> <div class="field--label">Tags</div> <div class="field--items"> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/astronomy-0" hreflang="en">Astronomy</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/physics" hreflang="en">Physics</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stars" hreflang="en">Stars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/supernovae" hreflang="en">Supernovae</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/black-hole" hreflang="en">black hole</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/class" hreflang="en">class</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/classification" hreflang="en">classification</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/death" hreflang="en">Death</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/die" hreflang="en">die</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/hypernova" hreflang="en">hypernova</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/life" hreflang="en">life</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/mass" hreflang="en">mass</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/planetary-nebula" hreflang="en">planetary nebula</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/solar" hreflang="en">solar</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/spectral" hreflang="en">spectral</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/star" hreflang="en">star</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/supernova" hreflang="en">supernova</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/type" hreflang="en">type</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/white-dwarf" hreflang="en">white dwarf</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/stars" hreflang="en">Stars</a></div> <div class="field--item"><a href="/tag/supernovae" hreflang="en">Supernovae</a></div> </div> </div> <section> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510255" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338258901"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>That was absolutely beautiful. Thanks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510255&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j7_94HDYV4CKzKqtMcpWToNmtmyjgyN1kefx8FxKv38"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">marktime (not verified)</span> on 28 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510255">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510256" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338271551"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan, I've seen that star formation video a million times, and yet just now I went for the author. It turns out he has done a great deal more research and videos, including a 3D visualization and radiation consideration!! Check it out: <a href="http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/mbate/Animations/">http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/mbate/Animations/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510256&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="I37uqR0UOgBBnRXqpofIJYj9om0HN_dBq5m22keYiC8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Kim (not verified)</span> on 29 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510256">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510257" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338283150"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>For some reason, you are no longer showing up in my feed reader. I've confirmed that I'm still subscribed- just not seeing recent posts.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510257&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cMiEhTycjxp5UdYHk9onchGjRaXz8-pASCLucayjsn8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">abeille (not verified)</span> on 29 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510257">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510258" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338284827"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>abeille,</p> <p>I am not showing up in my own feed reader, either. I am working with NatGeo to see whether this is a glitch that will be resolved, or whether I'll have to get the word out to everyone to subscribe to the new RSS feed for my blog.</p> <p>If you can't wait -- and I don't blame you if you can't -- you can add the updated feed here: <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/feed/">http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/feed/</a></p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510258&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="trmhlCL40s5GdHeplIUeTCvAV1XxT7YNL3lw-pXkJRI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 29 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510258">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510259" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338476343"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So my big question? A big picture question?<br /> What is going on?</p> <p>" M-stars can live for many trillions of years, burning coolly and slowly through their fuel, eventually turning all their hydrogen into helium, and then simply contracting down in their entirety to form a degenerate ball of atoms: a white dwarf star."</p> <p>Wiki says that M-stars are 76.45% of all main-sequence stars.</p> <p>a site titled M-star evolution says, " M-stars can not be reliable 'aged' through standard methods which rely on the nuclear evolution of a star." <a href="http://www.astronomy.villanova.edu/lward/evolution.htm">http://www.astronomy.villanova.edu/lward/evolution.htm</a></p> <p>Now with so many M-class stars, it would seem important to understand (independently) how old they are.</p> <p>But if as Ethan says they really can live a trillion years and if we really believe that our visible universe is only 13.7 billion years old; then I would expect to find NO White Dwarfs. I mean if M-stars live 1 trillion years and degenerate into white dwarfs, well I wouldn't expect to see a white dwarf for maybe 250 billion years. Right? Well that's my reason.</p> <p>But wiki says, " In January 2009, the Research Consortium on Nearby Stars project counted eight white dwarfs among the hundred star systems nearest the Sun.[" so white dwarfs are pretty common.</p> <p>And I see that white dwarf research is active, this article<br /> Extrasolar asteroids pollute white dwarf stars, by AMANDA DOYLE in ASTRONOMY NOW Posted: 30 March 2012 which says, "Unexpected elements have been found in the atmospheres of white dwarfs which suggest that the stars may have been eating broken-up asteroids."</p> <p>Now whether white dwarfs eat asteroids or not is not my point. My point and my question is, Why are there any white dwarfs at all. Are some of those M-stars really 250 Billion years old or what is going on?</p> <p>So my question, what is going on? Any help understanding the age of M-stars as it relates to the population of white dwarfs will be appreciated. This seems like a big area of research that is really important and that we know little about.</p> <p>Just declaring that no white dwarf can be older than 13.7 billion years is not convincing. Is there no spectroscopic way to determine the age of M-stars and white dwarfs?</p> <p>Please educate me. thanks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510259&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="D8CmwjNrY0rNfHEkrHlwzfKFTXkquqCf_vsPcXNEnQ8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 31 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510259">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510260" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338485063"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Cool.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510260&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="81r_UgKq1WKQEn-smUTS1Myzl0djpIdfgK0SZH0St0Y"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">John Silver (not verified)</span> on 31 May 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510260">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510261" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338530745"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"But if as Ethan says they really can live a trillion years and if we really believe that our visible universe is only 13.7 billion years old; then I would expect to find NO White Dwarfs"</p> <p>Our sun will die as a white dwarf.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510261&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="v7wdvj-Ac0ChtgmJs2XjYn39tB3-2NEUP_X6OW7Rx1k"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510261">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510262" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338535349"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Wow<br /> I take your word.</p> <p>Can you point me to some kind of flow chart of the evolution of stars.? By your comment I assume their are many paths to get to be a white dwarf. But I can't find any big picture flow chart.</p> <p>thanks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510262&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="MmG_X5o4JKTw86pg1ubaD0NxKMN84SPZu8vL9Apm5tI"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510262">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="33" id="comment-1510263" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338545292"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OKThen,</p> <p>There are no HELIUM white dwarfs that were formed from the death of these low-mass stars. The vast majority of white dwarfs that we see are carbon-oxygen white dwarfs, that come from the type of stars I talked about subsequently: K-stars through low-mass B-stars.</p> <p>But there are a few, rare helium white dwarfs that we've found, resulting, as far as we can tell, from multiple-star systems where mass loss (i.e., mass thievery) has played a big role.</p> <p>Sorry I don't know where one big, beautiful chart is. Maybe someday, I'll make one!</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510263&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="Rm6WvBI7R5RP38Z7-KUS42ay7q7XBi-OhHpgT8KNIg8"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <a title="View user profile." href="/startswithabang" lang="" about="/startswithabang" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">esiegel</a> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510263">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/startswithabang"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/startswithabang" hreflang="en"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/pictures/pastey-120x120_0.jpg?itok=sjrB9UJU" width="100" height="100" alt="Profile picture for user esiegel" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510264" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338606222"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Ethan<br /> aah, thank you. so there are different types of white dwarfs from different types of stars. Nice.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510264&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="KGfTDz8kx4XW8Q5jKEYz9OqHTyvpNQ3LQi-wfihYSzo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510264">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510265" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338607287"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>No this helium white dwarf stuff is really interesting.</p> <p>here<br /> <a href="http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27331/">http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27331/</a><br /> "It turns out that helium condensates have an extraordinary rich behaviour in which various kinds of quasiparticles can form. These quasiparticles are essentially quantised excitations in the condensate and have been well studied for ordinary condensates... Bedaque and co have found is an entirely new quasiparticle that emerges in helium white dwarfs.. This quasiparticle.. reduces the specific heat of the white dwarf core by two orders of magnitude compared to a crystalline core... etc..." OK that's enough.</p> <p>here's another interesting Helium white dwarf story<br /> <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090423100808.htm">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090423100808.htm</a> I'll let you read it</p> <p>Nice, so I'll ponder some more.</p> <p>Oh wait, I just found a cool stellar evolution chart. The nice thing about this chart is that it shows 2 paths toward becoming a white dwarf.. but neither of them seem to be coming from an M-star and one of them goesType 1a superNova. Oh well somebody please explain.</p> <p>thanks.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510265&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="j4PwlQ18Lg7nfawLR1ZQqEp5Z9eBdf6f_r12In0DXvo"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510265">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510266" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338607539"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>oops I forgot to put the link to stellar evolution chart<br /> <a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/edu/formal/stellar_ev/poster_horiz_med2.jpg">http://chandra.harvard.edu/edu/formal/stellar_ev/poster_horiz_med2.jpg</a> you need to blow it up</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510266&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="eOtlJ8oAT1AoUHbMK3ZeJAcIcapS7Gcod-jSmLFs6fQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 01 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510266">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510267" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338779174"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"lieves something behind"<br /> I think in my long life (I am 83 years old) and as the son of a protestant reverend, I never have heard/read a better sermon on Pentecoast/Memorial day as your blog. Many thanks.<br /> Hans</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510267&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="H33NryW9HQLmN73Cj4PGPk1RgxOf-wbw9dTQulnpGhQ"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Hans E. Moppert (not verified)</span> on 03 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510267">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510268" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1338796831"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>"The biggest difficulty in using white dwarfs to estimate the age of the universe is that white dwarfs are very faint and so are very difficult to observe. Most studies of white dwarf ages have concentrated on the solar neighborhood, in an effort to determine the age of the local disk of the Milky Way... A direct estimate for the minimum age of the universe can be obtained by determining the age of the oldest objects in the galaxy. These objects are the metal-poor stars located in the halo of the Milky Way. There are currently three independent techniques which have been used to determine the ages of the metal-poor stars in the Milky Way: nucleochronology, white dwarf cooling theory, and main sequence turn-off ages. .. White dwarf cooling theory is difficult to apply in practice, as one needs to observe very faint objects. Currently, it is impossible to observe the faintest white dwarfs in a globular cluster, so white dwarf cooling theory can only provide a lower limit to the age of a globular cluster.<br /> Based upon the luminosity of the faintest observed white dwarfs..." OK that's enough from <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9808200v1.pdf">http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9808200v1.pdf</a> </p> <p>Just sharing what I'm finding interesting.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510268&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="ke3oGOY2RfMGISnthMBax-nD_fL67ooICBVtGmRJixw"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 04 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510268">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510269" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339382000"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>OKThen, the Hertzprung-Russel diagram is the chart that tells you how stars evolve: move from Main Sequence to (either) Red Giant or White Dwarf</p> <p>Just go along to Wikipedia and check that out, along with anything from there on stellar evolution.</p> <p>Unfortunately, it's rather a basic question and these are the hardest ones to answer (which is why answering a three-year-old's "why?" is so hard for parents to manage...)</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510269&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="blIlMDJaI8u13buZuTu5AsAnIaHf9pYmNw20UQd0e8Q"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 10 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510269">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510270" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339391701"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>Thanks.</p> <p>On the idea of basic questions are the hardest ones to answer; I'm just reading a book titled: Ignorance (How it Drives Science) by Stuart Firestein. It's a fast read by a Columbia University neurobiologist.</p> <p>At any rate a really good question may not be easy to answer; but it may take a field in an unexpected direction,i.e. create more and better ignorance. There is an aspect of quality to ignorance. High quality ignorance is expansive; low quality dim-witted. An inquisative 3-year olds questions are never dimwitted.</p> <p>Enrico Fermi told his students that an experiment that successfully proves a hypothesis is a measurement; one that doesn't is a discovery. A discovery is an uncovering of new ignorance.</p> <p>Just rambling, thanks for the point to the Hertzprung-Russel diagram</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510270&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="d9yI5_2DE94zGjboNx0C-WQQGOtZ3seEGfqYaJ8wAJs"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">OKThen (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510270">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510271" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1339463515"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>The problem is more that a blog post isn't anywhere near enough. And the medium far too limiting (a picture paints a thousand words and all that).</p> <p>And for someone who knows enough to answer, the extra burden of working out where to start with the knowledge. I.e. too far back and it's baby talk, not far enough and you still have to go on about even more basic work. And where do you stop?</p> <p>To explain how semiconductors work you need to go into QM and solve the equations for a simple two-hydrogen bound system to show the valency energies, expand that to a planar system to show how those energies get bradened into bands and then how this will result in a conduction band that requires energy imparted to the electrons to start moving. Hence semiconductors.</p> <p>Or explaining the platypus needs to go into the entire theory of evolution and specialisation to show how the species changed into mammals, then show how isolationism and a lack of change means that there is no evolutionary pressure and therefore you still get a platypus in Australia.</p> <p>Both are VERY long and detailed.</p> <p>And working out where to start, what to cover and how to do it in a text-only form not easy.</p> <p>Hence a lot of "Go look on Wikipedia" which appears a little like palming you off, but is really only the best way of answering the question with the limits of the communication method here.</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510271&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="cnu0DTSKrjPM1MBh-__zLCxGfyTC_WGwx3x4MAW8ORY"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Wow (not verified)</span> on 11 Jun 2012 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510271">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> <article data-comment-user-id="0" id="comment-1510272" class="js-comment comment-wrapper clearfix"> <mark class="hidden" data-comment-timestamp="1374307994"></mark> <div class="well"> <strong></strong> <div class="field field--name-comment-body field--type-text-long field--label-hidden field--item"><p>So what will the universe leave behind, when there isn't enough hydrogen left to form any more stars?</p> </div> <drupal-render-placeholder callback="comment.lazy_builders:renderLinks" arguments="0=1510272&amp;1=default&amp;2=en&amp;3=" token="OTMxCNSB475Lt2sTjdSMezsmL-kgHvTLvurpJK2j9i0"></drupal-render-placeholder> </div> <footer> <em>By <span lang="" typeof="schema:Person" property="schema:name" datatype="">Chris (not verified)</span> on 20 Jul 2013 <a href="https://scienceblogs.com/taxonomy/term/7859/feed#comment-1510272">#permalink</a></em> <article typeof="schema:Person" about="/user/0"> <div class="field field--name-user-picture field--type-image field--label-hidden field--item"> <a href="/user/0" hreflang="und"><img src="/files/styles/thumbnail/public/default_images/icon-user.png?itok=yQw_eG_q" width="100" height="100" alt="User Image" typeof="foaf:Image" class="img-responsive" /> </a> </div> </article> </footer> </article> </section> <ul class="links inline list-inline"><li class="comment-forbidden"><a href="/user/login?destination=/startswithabang/2012/05/28/practically-everything-leaves-something-behind%23comment-form">Log in</a> to post comments</li></ul> Mon, 28 May 2012 18:31:25 +0000 esiegel 35425 at https://scienceblogs.com