I realize that I’ve thanked Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield before for giving the U.S. the gift of a measles resurgence. Originally, when I started this sarcastic little exercise, I assumed that it would be 5-10 years before we in the States caught up with the level of endemic measles that has been resurgent in the U.K. in the decade since Andrew Wakefield published his shoddy, fraudulent, pseudoscientific, litigation-driven article in The Lancet claiming that the MMR vaccine was responsible for “autistic enterocolitis,” leading to an anti-MMR hysteria that drove down vaccination rates and made measles endemic again in the U.K. However, I rapidly realized that I was wrong and that measles would come roaring back in the U.S. far faster than that.

Here’s yet another story about how it has done just that:

The number of measles cases in the U.S. is at its highest level since 1997, and nearly half of those involve children whose parents rejected vaccination, government health officials reported Thursday.

The number of cases is still small, just 131, but that’s just for the first seven months of the year and doctors are troubled by the trend. There were only 42 cases for all of last year.

“We’re seeing a lot more spread. That is concerning to us,” said Dr. Jane Seward, of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Pediatricians are frustrated, saying they are having to spend more time convincing parents the shot is safe.

“This year, we certainly have had parents asking more questions,” said Dr. Ari Brown, an Austin, Texas, physician who is a spokeswoman for the American Academy of Pediatrics.

The CDC’s review found that a number of cases involved home-schooled children not required to have the vaccines.

[…]

It is no longer endemic to the United States, but every year some Americans pick it up while traveling abroad and bring it home. Measles epidemics have exploded in Israel, Switzerland and some other countries. But high U.S. childhood vaccination rates have prevented major outbreaks here.

In a typical year, only one outbreak occurs in the United States, infecting perhaps 10 to 20 people. So far this year through July 30 the country has seen seven outbreaks, including one in Illinois with 30 cases, said Seward, deputy director of the CDC’s Division of Viral Diseases.

None of the 131 patients died, but 15 were hospitalized.

The article notes that vaccination rates in the U.S. are still over 90%, still high enough for herd immunity to hold sway, but that outbreak pockets, where lower vaccination rates are the rule and herd immunity has become shaky, are forming. That’s what’s allowing these outbreaks to occur. Here’s the kicker:

Of this year’s total, 122 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Some were unvaccinated because the children were under age 1, making them too young to get their first measles shot.

In 63 of those cases _ almost all of them 19 or younger _ the patient or their parents refused vaccination, the CDC reported.

In Washington state, an outbreak was traced to a religious conference, including 16 school-aged children who were not vaccinated because of parents’ beliefs. Eleven of those kids were home schooled and not subject to vaccination rules in public schools.

The Illinois outbreak _ triggered by a teenager who had traveled to Italy _ included 25 home-schooled children, according to the CDC report.

So, rejoice, Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, and all the other antivaccine activists (or their willing dupes who oh-so-piously claim they are really and truly “not antivaccine”) spreading misinformation, pseudoscience, and fear about vaccines! You’re winning. You’re succeeding in casting doubt on the safety of vaccines to the point that it’s causing real problems for our public health system:

The nation once routinely saw hundreds of thousands of measles cases each year, and hundreds of deaths. But immunization campaigns were credited with dramatically reducing the numbers. The last time health officials saw this many cases was 1997, when 138 were reported. Last year, there were only 42 U.S. cases.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has made educating parents about the safety of vaccines one of its top priorities this year, in part because busy doctors have grown frustrated at the amount of time they’ve been spending answering parents’ questions about things they read on the Internet or heard from TV talk shows.

In June, the CDC interviewed 33 physicians in Austin, suburban Seattle and Hollywood, Fla., about childhood vaccinations. Several complained about patient backlogs caused by parents stirred up by information of dubious scientific merit, according to the CDC report.

Yes, each and every of you anti-vaccinationists or enablers or sympathizers with antivaccinationists (but above all, Jenny McCarthy, given that you’ve willingly–nay, enthusiastically!–become the celebrity face of the antivaccination movement, going so far as to get all your Hollywood friends to show up at Generation Rescue charities, to organize antivaccine marches on Washington, and get professional wrestling to help you raise money for the cause), this resurgence in measles is the result of your tireless labor in scaring parents with lies and pseudoscience to the point where they fear and refuse vaccination. Now your efforts are really beginning to bear fruit, and we’re catching up with the U.K., which has a decade-long head start. Measles is coming back, Who knows? If you keep it up, you could reach the golden age of pre-MMR, as described in the CDC report itself:

In the United States, measles caused 450 reported deaths and 4,000 cases of encephalitis annually before measles vaccine became available in the mid-1960s (1). Through a successful measles vaccination program, the United States eliminated endemic measles transmission (1). Sustaining elimination requires maintaining high MMR vaccine coverage rates, particularly among preschool (>90% 1-dose coverage) and school-aged children (>95% 2-dose coverage) (7). High coverage levels provide herd immunity, decreasing everyone’s risk for measles exposure and affording protection to persons who cannot be vaccinated. However, herd immunity does not provide 100% protection, especially in communities with large numbers of unvaccinated persons. For the foreseeable future, measles importations into the United States will continue to occur because measles is still common in Europe and other regions of the world. Within the United States, the current national MMR vaccine coverage rate is adequate to prevent the sustained spread of measles. However, importations of measles likely will continue to cause outbreaks in communities that have sizeable clusters of unvaccinated persons.

But, hey, if you succeed, Jenny, it’ll be far more than just isolated communities of unvaccinated persons. Then the measles can really go to town! After all:

Measles is one of the first diseases to reappear when vaccination coverage rates fall. Ongoing outbreaks are occurring in European countries where rates of vaccination coverage are lower than those in the United States, including Austria, Italy, and Switzerland (3,4). In June 2008, the United Kingdom’s Health Protection Agency declared that, because of a drop in vaccination coverage levels (to 80%–85% among children aged 2 years), measles was again endemic in the United Kingdom (3,8), 14 years after it had been eliminated. Since April 2008, two measles-related deaths have been reported in Europe, both in children ineligible to receive MMR vaccine because of congenital immunologic compromise (4,8). Such children depend on herd immunity for protection from the disease, as do children aged <12 months, who normally are too young to receive the vaccine. Otherwise healthy children with measles also are at risk for severe complications, including encephalitis and pneumonia, which can lead to permanent disability or death.

And that was just the measles. Keep it up, Jenny and other antivaccine activists, and you could probably drive vaccination rates low enough that pertussis, polio, Haemophilus influenza b, the mumps, and a whole lot of other vaccine-preventable diseases make a similar comeback. Heck, if you work hard enough, maybe they’ll all become endemic again. It’ll be just like the old days! Won’t that be grand? Isn’t that what you want? That’ll be the reward for your success.

I’m sure all the suffering, hospitalized, and dead children in the future will thank you for your tireless efforts to save them from autism now.

Comments

  1. #1 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Actually Gray Falcon: Revelation 9:21 talks about the “magic arts” which in Greek refers to pharmakon, which comes from the English “pharmacy”. It is referenced 3x in this book alone as being evil and “idoltry/aka money worshiping” and that the perpretrators will pay for their crimes against humanity to include DEATH. I do believe that drugs have began as a good thing, but have later turned to evil/greed.

  2. #2 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    The phrase “magic arts” refers to curses and poisons, not pharmaceuticals. You just made up a new definition because you liked it better. And since you still don’t understand the concept of burden of proof (which is what my silly comment was about), and clearly do not bother reading my comments, I am no longer addressing you, except to present you with the not-very-prestigious John Best Jr. Award, given to whoever manages to do more to undermine anti-vaccination with their words of support that any number of critics. Goodbye.

  3. #3 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Also, an error in one of Dawn’s comments. “Pharmakon” does not come from the English “pharmacy”, as the book of Revelations was written centuries before modern English. It can mean “remedy” or “poison”, in context, it probably means the second.

  4. #4 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    No Gray Falcon I did not make it up. It is actually referenced in the NIV version. I am sorry that you were silly in your accusations.

  5. #5 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    I guess the reason Dawn refuses to answer my questions about the relative safety of the MMR versus measles is because I do have children.

    And one of those children is disabled. He has had seizures, which required him to be kept away from other children as an infant during a pertussis epidemic because he did not get the DPT, but on the DT vaccine. Then he had another Grand Mal seizure while dehydrated because of a gastrointestinal disease which may have been a rotavirus (which is now vaccine preventable), which required a trip to the hospital by ambulance. And he also has a severe genetic heart condition (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction) which puts him first in line for the influenza vaccine each autumn.

    I have a child who could die if he had had measles (and him having chicken pox was no picnic, but neither was it for his infant baby sister).

    Dawn has a perfect Catch-22: She won’t deal with people without children (though as I remember from usenet D.C. Sessions does have children, she should be adults by now), and she won’t deal with people who have children with disabilities who can be seriously harmed by the diseases, like these children:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece …”Joe, who was discharged from hospital at the end of August, is unlikely to regain the full use of his left leg and has partial paralysis of his tongue and throat.

    “Matthew, who was not discharged from hospital until December 21, is more severely disabled. His optic nerves were permanently scarred by the virus and he is now registered blind.

    “He is also virtually confined to a wheelchair and has had to drop out of his mainstream school. Karen said: “Before he had measles, he could go out, he could play football, he could do what he wanted. …

    “Naomi Pop, just 14 months old, was among the victims. Her mother, Maria, 20, was not unduly worried when Naomi contracted measles just four weeks before she was due to have the triple jab. She said: “I thought to myself, ‘Measles, so what?’ I mean, how bad could that be?”

    “Within a few days Naomi had developed acute pneumonia. It took a year for her to die. She suffered several infections and progressive brain damage and finally died on March 14, 2001.

    “Other parents have yet to learn whether their children have suffered long-term damage from measles. Laurie Laird’s daughter Madeline contracted the virus when she was five months old. She recovered but at 20 months is still barely speaking.”

    Remember, Dawn, just fifty years ago hundreds of children died from measles each year, with several more becoming permanently disabled. Why do you want those kind of tragedies to returen?

  6. #6 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    The book of Revelation also discusses the fact that you should leave well enough alone – evil alone. I guess if people are truly thinking that they are “saving the world” by their vaccine program, LEAVE THEM BE. However, if they are committing crimes against humanity by way of death (which every vaccine is capable of), they will be persecuted. So everyone, I hope that you truly believe what you have instilled upon you is in fact, the total truth and not fabricated. It is totally upon your shoulders to seek the truth. I am just one ticked off Mom out to set a point.

  7. #7 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Oh Please HCN: I’m not really in the mood to deal with your BS. Please don’t reference off-shore cases when the public has no way of checking them out.

    HCN, you also need to try to locate a medical text book from the 50’s because apparently the definition of disease was different back then. Good luck trying to find one though because they have been “confiscated”.

  8. #8 Clay
    August 23, 2008

    Dangit, Dawn, when will you stop sacrificing children?

  9. #9 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Hcn stated: ” guess the reason Dawn refuses to answer my questions about the relative safety of the MMR versus measles is because I do have children.

    And one of those children is disabled. He has had seizures, which required him to be kept away from other children as an infant during a pertussis epidemic because he did not get the DPT, but on the DT vaccine. Then he had another Grand Mal seizure while dehydrated because of a gastrointestinal disease which may have been a rotavirus (which is now vaccine preventable), which required a trip to the hospital by ambulance. And he also has a severe genetic heart condition (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction) which puts him first in line for the influenza vaccine each autumn.

    I have a child who could die if he had had measles (and him having chicken pox was no picnic, but neither was it for his infant baby sister).”

    Wow, HCN, you have that much faith that you truly don’t believe that it was vaccine induced. How courageous of you. I don’t have that much faith in anyone. Sorry. All of the “situations” that you have stated with your own child have been vaccine-induced according to other parents. Again, I’m so sorry that you have so much faith in Big Pharma.

  10. #10 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    I dunno. Maybe I am repeating myself, but unless you have an immediate FAMILY member that will be affected by vaccinating/not vaccinating, then please SHUT UP about the subject. Obviously it does not apply to you and you should not provide your input. My family was adversly affected by vaccines and I feel that it is totally rude to provide input when you do no even have children!!

  11. #11 Kev
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn – my middle child is autistic. You’re an ignorant idiot spouting total crap.

    I’d also like to suggest that whilst I can understand whilst you want to shut people up when you have no counter to their arguments, telling people to shut up on someone else’s website is the height of rudeness.

  12. #12 How many kid's David Kirby gots?
    August 23, 2008

    HEY DAWN, HOW MANY KIDS DO DAVID KIRBY HAS? R U GONNA BAR HIM FROM THE DEEBATE 2?

  13. #13 Orac
    August 23, 2008

    In fact, this is A FURTHER POINT – if anyone does not have a child yet – stay out of this debate please. It is again pro-vaccine moms/dads against anti-vaccine mom/dads.

    Regular readers know that I don’t often use such terms, but sometimes only one word will do: That’s just a load of steaming, stinking, fly-covered bullshit, Dawn. Vaccination and herd immunity affect us all. I reject utterly your attempt to claim that we don’t all have a stake in keeping infectious disease at bay.

    In fact, I go as far as to say: If you don’t have children, make it a point to tell Dawn where to get off with her stupid attitude towards you. I would also point out that David Kirby doesn’t have any children. By your logic, he should be utterly excluded from the discussion. Perhaps you should go over to his Huffington Post blog and tell him to butt out.

  14. #14 Orac
    August 23, 2008

    You don’t have children D.C. Sessions do you? Stay out of this debate then please.

    Once again: You’re full of shit. And if you’re going to be telling people without children that they can’t participate in the discussion, then please, do be consistent and tell us what you think of David Kirby. The day I see you condemning David Kirby for taking part in the vaccine discussion and telling him he should just butt out and shut up because he doesn’t have children is the day I might take your stance for anything other than very obviously it is: A transparent excuse to try to exclude someone who doesn’t buy into your vaccine fearmongering.

  15. #15 beebeeo
    August 23, 2008

    I would argue to the contrary that parents with autistic children should stay out of the debate as they cannot be objective about the fact vaccines have been shown to be much safer than actually getting the disease they protect from. As they have their subjective experience that is based on a temporal coincidence they should stop arguing about the safety of vaccines. There you have it Dawn. My argument is just as valid as yours.

  16. #16 Mary Parsons
    August 23, 2008

    AA Aug 22 9:31 pm said:

    Have you even read the thesis to which I am referring? It covered the period from 1901 – 1928, and addressed natural immune response to measles exposure. I merely stated that the term has been extrapolated to vaccine-induced immunity (secondary failure anyone?), and rather abused..

    Yes – and might I suggest, it seems as if in considerably more detail than you did, and that is why I included the SGU link for which I’m not seeing any rebuttal from you…And, as for your latter point, so what? There are papers calling for a rationalisation of the use of the phrase with appropriate nuance: Herd immunity and herd effect: new insights and definitions. If that is your only objection, oddly enough, knowledgeable scientists and researchers are way ahead of you.

    Paul Fine wrote one of the most readable and detailed discussions of the history, theory and practice of herd immunity.

  17. #17 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn spewed “Oh Please HCN: I’m not really in the mood to deal with your BS. Please don’t reference off-shore cases when the public has no way of checking them out.”

    I actually provided references. I have included papers, articles and data from reliable sources. Like the whole list of papers in http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf ,which include studies from all over this planet. While you have provided a whole lot of nothing.

    I bet you don’t like my “BS” because it proves you are a person who would rather see children become permenantly disabled and die in the numbers they did in the 1950s. It does not matter what the definitions were in the medical books, dead is still dead… and measles killed kids by the hundreds each year of the 1950s.

    Just prove that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella with real verifiable evidence.

  18. #18 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    You don’t have children D.C. Sessions do you? Stay out of this debate then please.

    I love the smell of desperation in the Dawn.

    First we get the fascinating Revelation that “Pharma” is cited multiple times in the Apocalypse of St. John. Now we have Dawn frantically trying to ban interested parties from Orac’s blog who don’t meet her inclusion standards.

    Does that also mean shutting up Orac, Dawn? I’m sure you’d love to. However, despite the renowned wisdom embodied in the fruitful womb I’m afraid that free speech wins out and Dawn won’t be able to disenfranchise everyone who isn’t the mother of at least one under-ten autistic child.

    Which might or might not rule me out anyway, since Dawn is flailing about blindly. Here’s a clue, dearie: I’ve been posting to Usenet for more than 15 years. No secrets about my family status. Before going all argumentum ad hominem the halfway-prudent troll at least does a modicum of due diligence.

  19. #19 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 23, 2008

    Mary Parsons,

    You may suggest anything you like, doesn’t make it true. Why do I need to rebut the SGU piece? There was only a single paragraph that discussed the extrapolation of this term quoting from a previous debate elsewhere in cyberspace, and with it… epidemiolgy. And?

    It is STILL an extrapolation of the term, and protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available – which is absurd.

    AA

  20. #20 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    ozzy said “HCN, don’t you know that those numbers have been altered. Dawn has the proof!”

    Where?

    HCN, old friend, you know the answer to that one.

    However I do believe that the story today is that she found it in her family Bible.

  21. #21 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    though as I remember from usenet D.C. Sessions does have children, she should be adults by now

    Thanks for remembering, and yes (for some value of “adult”) they are. The youngest is getting her HPV series this fall.

  22. #22 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “Especially when the 1918 pandemic was triggered by vaccinated military persons to begin with. The individuals who died were ones living in impoverished conditions on top of that!!”

    Among the dead, and dead from the Spanish Flu, from the 1918 pandemic were:
    * Phoebe Hearst, mother of William Randolph Hearst, († April 13, 1919) (you know, the totally impoverished Hearst family that built San Simeon)
    * Yakov Sverdlov, Bolshevik party leader and official of pre-USSR Russia († March 16, 1919)
    * Mark Sykes, British politician and diplomat († February 16, 1919)
    * Max Weber, German political economist and sociologist († June 14, 1920)
    * Prince Erik, Duke of Västmanland (Erik Gustav Ludvig Albert Bernadotte), Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västmanland († September 20, 1918) (obviously impoverished!)
    * Franz Karl Salvator (1893-1918), son of Archduchess Marie Valerie of Austria and Archduke Franz Salvator, grandson of Empress Elisabeth of Bavaria and Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria, died unmarried and childless. (more totally impoverished royalty)
    * Louis Botha, first Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, († August 27, 1919)[28] (politicians are well-known to be impoverished)

  23. #23 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    A bit off topic, but after reading Revelations again, and noting how similar “Babylon” was to the more decadent elements of Roman culture, I’m betting “pharmakos” actually means “narcotics.”

    Oh, and thanks for the list, Tsu Dho Nimh. I should also add that measles and similar diseases pretty much killed off the first royal family of Hawai’i (I don’t live there, but I did get to visit.). Not exactly impoverished people, either.

  24. #24 The Christian Cynic
    August 23, 2008

    I covered the “pharma” in Revelations thing in another comment, but I have to laugh at this gem from Dawn:

    I actually sat down and read the book of Revelation today. I haven’t touched a Bible in probably 15 years, but it was quite shocking to read that a lot has already come to pass and much more is to come. In fact, “pharma” is mentioned 3x in this book as being evil.

    So you expect us to believe that you haven’t touched a Bible in 15 years, but you either a) have a Greek New Testament and can read it in the original Greek or (the more likely option, but not by much) b) you have an interlinear Bible (Hebrew & Greek texts/English translation of choice) on hand? Forgive me for being skeptical.

  25. #25 The Christian Cynic
    August 23, 2008

    Gray Falcon, pharmakeus here probably has the connotation of sorcery, so “narcotics” would be accurate insofar as the drugs (potions, what-have-you) would be used in occult practices (which is why pharmakeus is always translated in the NT as “sorcery,” “witchcraft,” “magic arts,” or something similar).

  26. #26 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “J.L. Stated: “Especially when the 2008 measles outbreaks in the U.K. and U.S. was triggered by unvaccinated uneducated persons to begin with. PROOF PLEASE J.L?? You are so FULL of @#$%!!

    The 2008 Tucson AZ outbreak began when an unvaccinated Swiss tourist became ill with measles after her arrival.

    The 2008 San Diego, Ca outbreak began when an unvaccinated boy went to Switzerland with his family and contracted measles there. The child set off a chain reaction that has infected two siblings, one of whom was a fellow charter student, and at least one classmate. The 7-year-old’s parents took the youngster to the Children’s Clinic of La Jolla, on La Jolla Boulevard in Bird Rock, on Jan. 25. The child may have coughed and sneezed in the office, potentially infecting four other patients. Those four patients returned to the clinic between Feb. 5 and 8, possibly spreading the virus to 60 other children.

    The 2008 Wisconsin outbreak may have begun with a visitor from China … the first two cases reported contact with that person,buyt thye had already left the country.

    The 2008 Washington state outbreak appears to have begun at a large church conference that had international and multi-state attendees.

  27. #27 Badger3k
    August 23, 2008

    First off, I have no kids of my own, just 3 neices (one less than 6 months old) and 8 nephews, and I teach high school kids, but I guess I can’t talk since I have “none of my own”. Yeah, I should have no concern for kids because I am not a biological father. Nice sentiment there, and exposes Dawns real concern – only her own kids, and nobody else’s, despite her protestations.

    That said, I too find it interesting that Dawn seems to think that Revelations is something we should be concerned with. Why should the writings of a (possibly drugged out) ancient writer, probably writing about a Roman emperor but there are competing hypotheses, have any relevance today? About the only thing I can think of is that Dawn, like many of the Rapture Ready crowd, see disease and multiple deaths as a sign of their coming salvation and the punishment of everybody who they do not like. This may not be the case, but the attitude seems to be the same, a pathological hatred of others that overrides common compassion and humanity.

    Dawn should be disgusted by herself, but she won’t be. Any bets she tells me to shut up? If you do, Dawn, please answer the question on whether Childless David Kirby should shut up as well?

  28. #28 badger3k
    August 23, 2008

    Sorry for the double post – I got a submission error, please submit again message twice. luckily I didn’t go for it the third time.

  29. #29 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “If you don’t have a child to be sacrificed – stay out of it. Period. You have no room to talk and I really don’t care to hear your BS either.

    Dawn … my parents volunteered me for the Salk polio vaccine trials, knowing full well that it could backfire and give me polio. When you look at all those children walking around the malls, while you are scanning them for signs of “vaccine damage” that only you can see, please notice that they ARE WALKING! They are not on crutches, with leg braces like three children in my grade school were. They are WALKING through the mall, not lying in an iron lung like one of my older sister’s classmates was.

    If I could reach through the computer screen and bitch-slap you, I would. It’s damned fools like you, Jenny McCarthy and “see no disease, must not be any danger” idiots like Jay Gordon who are setting a lot of families up for totally preventable disasters.

  30. #30 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says:

    HCN, you also need to try to locate a medical text book from the 50’s because apparently the definition of disease was different back then. Good luck trying to find one though because they have been “confiscated”.

    Uh … confiscated from where? I have many medical books on my shelves, starting with half of a 2-volume set from the 1700s, one from right after Jenner discovered the smallpox vaccination, Meakins’ “Practice of Medicine” from 1944, and “Manson’s Tropical Diseases” from 1954 to name a few. No one has come by to confiscate them from me.

    If you want old medical books, just search Google Books. I have found marvelous books from the 1500s through the 1920s, scanned from the collections of medical libraries and private individuals all over the world. You really should read some of them, especially the ones with the death rates from diseases from diptheria, measles, whooping cough and the other vaccine-preventable diseases.

  31. #31 Prometheus
    August 23, 2008

    Boy, I’d love to tell Dawn about the interesting findings that have been made with the newly reconstituted 1918 Influenza virus, but I think that she’d just argue that the studies were all “faked” (like the Apollo moon landings, don’t you know).

    Although it looks like the H5N1 influenza (“bird flu”) won’t become the next pandemic influenza (although it might, if it ever gets the right polymerase), it is inevitable that one will eventually happen.

    If the current “Green our Vaccines” and “Too Many, Too Soon” movements haven’t dissipated by then, I forsee a Great Winnowing of anti-vaccinationists. And their children.

    People who are curious should look up the recent discoveries about the 1918 Influenza and also look up the epidemiologic studies of its victims. It’s fascinating reading, ‘though it might keep you up at night.

    The 1918 influenza killed at least 50 million people in less than two years – at a time when the world population was about 1.5 billion. It circled the globe, coming back to some places (England, for example) three times – a record for influenza that lasts to this day. An estimated 500 million people were infected by this influenza virus, with more than 2.5% of those infected dying. Pandemics before and after the 1918 influenza had death rates of around 0.1%.

    It did all this at a time when fast ocean liners took up to a week to travel between Europe and North America and global travel was limited to the ultra-rich (and soldiers).

    If another influenza virus mutates to be like the 1918 strain, it will be around the world before we even know it’s coming. Vaccination will have to be done quickly to be of any use to people – I suspect that the “Green our Vaccines” crowd will still be protesting that the vaccine needs “further testing” when they drop dead in the streets.

    Prometheus

  32. #32 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Tsu Dho Nimh said “If you want old medical books, just search Google Books. I have found marvelous books from the 1500s through the 1920s, scanned from the collections of medical libraries and private individuals all over the world.”

    One good place to start is at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/ , since the history of medicine is a fascinating subject. I have also seen old medical texts at the Library Foundation’s semi-annual book sales.

    I have probably read more on the history of disease and medicine than Dawn. From “Plagues and Peoples” by McNeill, “The Great Influenza” by John Barry, “Vaccine” by Arthur Allen, “The Cutter Incident” and “Vaccinated” by Paul Offit, “The Ghost Map” by Steven Johnson, “Vaccine” by Arthur Allen, others and I just finished “Panama Fever” by Matthew Parker and will soon start “Mosquitoes, Malaria and Man” by Gordon Harrison.

    I sincerely suspect that reading whole books is difficult for Dawn. She has bounced around with cut and pastes from various anti-vax sites, sometimes without understanding they did not say what she thought they said (this is most likely where she got the 1950s medical book idea, I doubt she has ever seen one). This is acutely illustrated with her telling us to not use PubMed, since she has no clue that it is just an index.

  33. #33 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    People who are curious should look up the recent discoveries about the 1918 Influenza and also look up the epidemiologic studies of its victims.

    Especially the “who.”

    For those who don’t know, the 1918 pandemic strain primarily killed by cytokine storm. The old and otherwise less-healthy actually had a lower case mortality rate, since the robust hair-trigger immune systems of the young and healthy were what over-reacted and filled their lungs with fluids (much as with hantavirus.)

    Puts a different light on the alties who are so smug that their “boosted immune systems” will save them from the illnesses that afflict lesser mortals.

  34. #34 alyric
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn may be a credulous fool, what with her strabismus and other odd notions. Kelli Ann Davis is just your garden variety anti -vaxxer, purveyor of every falsehood they’ve got and as culpable as hell in this current debacle. Don’t tell me when she comes out with the lies and misrepresentations that she isn’t aware that they are lies and misrepresentations. A thorougly nasty conscienceless piece of work.

  35. #35 Mary Parsons
    August 23, 2008

    AA Aug 23 11:23am:

    There was only a single paragraph that discussed the extrapolation of this term quoting from a previous debate elsewhere in cyberspace, and with it… epidemiolgy. And?
    It is STILL an extrapolation of the term, and protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available – which is absurd.

    You introduced herd immunity yet it seems as if you merely dropped in a phrase that you don’t understand but had somehow found persuasive elsewhere in a similar exchange of views. Nonetheless, you might consider reading the other references that I gave, they are both accessible and informative. Both of them explain the currently preferred terminology and provide guidance on how various terms were or should be used. It seems that you have read neither of them or you would not consider the scientists and researchers discuss herd immunity, herd effect etc. in an unnuanced way over-extrapolated way. Nor would you see anything as overly-simple or unsophisticated as your characterisation.

    You might be particularly interested in Table 4 (pg 282) of the Fine paper; it discusses the implications of different assumptions for theoretical estimates of the herd immunity threshold. There are many other interesting observations in both papers. E.g., Fine, pg 283 discusses smallpox.

    Whether or not continued reliance upon population-wide vaccination programs might ultimately have been sufficient to eliminate smallpox from the more densely populated nations of Africa and Asia is now a moot point. If the 10 susceptibles per km2 threshold is a guide, then 98 percent vaccination coverage would have been necessary for Bangladesh, and such coverages were impracticable. However, it was recognized by 1970 that variola virus could be eliminated from populations more effectively by a policy of active case detection, contact tracing, and the breaking of individual chains of transmission by quarantine and ring vaccination than by relying entirely upon herd immunity from mass vaccination programs (69). In effect, the focus of prevention activity shifted from the population back to the individual. The success of this policy is now a matter of record (67). [Emphasis added.]

    Quite plainly, the eradication of smallpox took more than herd immunity: it is knowledgeable researchers and scientists who came up with that plan and expert local public health systems that implemented it.

    On the topic of malaria, that is an obvious example of a multi-pronged attack where public health interventions rely on considerably more than vaccination (e.g., impregnated bed nets). So, it does seem like an over-simplification of the matter for you to argue that herd immunity “protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available”.

    Thoe references that I previously gave are useful to anyone who genuinely wants to understand this topic and how the interpretation of herd immunity and effect has changed over time.

  36. #36 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Mary – However, it was recognized by 1970 that variola virus could be eliminated from populations more effectively by a policy of active case detection, contact tracing, and the breaking of individual chains of transmission by quarantine and ring vaccination than by relying entirely upon herd immunity from mass vaccination programs

    That is feasible for diseases that are fairly rare, providedthe populaiton isn’t vrey mobile. I studied epidemiology in the late 1960s, and the shift had already happened. At that time the strategy was to vaccinate the heck out of people – especially in densely populated areas – until you have broken up a geographically even incidence into areas that are disease-free with scattered pockets of the disease. Then you focus on working from the edges of the pockets towards the centers, vaccinating inwards.

    Unfortunately, all it takes is for one person incubating the disease to hop a flight out of the ring and into somewhere else. That was not a problem when smallpox was shoved into the depths of Bangladesh and Ethiopia. Measles is now endemic in Great Britain, and the air traffic between here and there is high.

    I got caught up in a vaccination ring in Mexico: a local pre-school had a couple of cases of measles, and the public health department sent nurses into the neighborhood with coolers full of vaccines, tracing and vaccinating the pre-schoolers. They also required proof ofvaccinaiton ot enter school, public or private.

  37. #37 Mojo
    August 24, 2008

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party here, but I’ve remembered a prominent sufferer from “inverted eyes”:

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election2001/images/0,9350,449562,00.html

  38. #38 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 24, 2008

    Mary,

    I do thank you for your insight, and perhaps our exchange started out a bit snarky and should not have? I did not use the term, someone else did. I didn’t “merely drop a line I heard”, my research into this term dates to before the John Hopkins thesis – when it applied to animals, cattle specifically.

    My singular point, is that like everything else, the term has evolved. Perhaps my simplification of this issue was not directed at your use of it, but to those that abuse it and its connection to vaccines. Hopefully you are able to concede that this does occur.

    aa

  39. #39 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    We could go round and round in this debate. I think we can all agree on one point though. That every vaccine has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, vaccines can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of the “herd”. It is called Socialism – which is exactly why we have a Constitution (for the moment anyways). If you feel comfortable having our government agencies strip you of your parental rights, that is your choice – not mine. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who have less than ideal motives.

  40. #40 CanadianChick
    August 24, 2008

    Dawn, you are full of bullshit.

    How DARE you suggest that because I don’t have children that I don’t have a right to partake in this debate.

    The fact that I am immunosuppressed, unable to take live vaccine boosters and am therefore very much at risk of contracting the diseases that you apparently selfishly refuse to have your spawn vaccinated against means that I have EVERY right to have a say in this debate.

    And hell, even if I was perfectly healthy, I have a right to participate in this debate – because apparently I care more about ALL children being healthy and not exposed to vicious diseases than you do.

    You refer to others as having less than ideal motives – that takes brass ovaries coming from someone who would happily doom complete strangers because of her preference for wilful ignorance.

    If I wasn’t respectful of Orac’s general preference for “clean” language, I’d be telling you what I REALLY think of your “logic” and your “ideals”.

    Do me a favour – keep your unvaccinated children in a hermetically sealed bubble where they won’t pose a risk to everyone else, ‘kay?

  41. #41 Sara
    August 24, 2008

    If you personally have a vaccine, then you won’t get the measles. Why should it matter if the person sitting next to you doesn’t have the vaccine?

  42. #42 Carlie
    August 24, 2008

    If you personally have a vaccine, then you won’t get the measles. Why should it matter if the person sitting next to you doesn’t have the vaccine?

    Well, for one, if I’m sitting there holding my infant who has not gone through the entire set of booster shots yet, and that unvaccinated person is carrying the measles, I’m going to be incredibly pissed off.

  43. #43 CanadianChick
    August 24, 2008

    well, Sara – for one thing, the vaccine isn’t 100% effective. I had the MMR and all the other vaccines given to kids throughout the 70s and early 80s – but because I never had the misfortune to be exposed, for all we know, I may have been at risk to one or more of the specific diseases. I may have been relying on herd immunity my whole life, no one knows.

    Secondly, vaccination efficacy can wear off over time, hence the use of boosters. I can’t have boosters of some of the vaccines, so here again, I have to rely on herd immunity.

    And, as Carlie has mentioned, some people either can’t have or aren’t yet old enough to have the vaccines.

  44. #44 Dawn's evil twin
    August 24, 2008

    I think we can all agree on one point. That every infectious childhood disease has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, diseases can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties. If you feel comfortable having dolts like Dawn put your child at risk, that is your choice. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who would struggle in basic science class.

  45. #45 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties.

    And yet that’s exactly what you’re doing.

  46. #46 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    Dawn’s evil twin stated: “I think we can all agree on one point. That every infectious childhood disease has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, diseases can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties. If you feel comfortable having dolts like Dawn put your child at risk, that is your choice. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who would struggle in basic science class”.

    Well then, move to China. Move to a country that will do the thinking for you – and TELL you what you can/can’t do as a person. Just get the heck out of this FREE country.

    Well, Canadian chick – or shall I say Spawn of Satan?? I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.

    Actually Carlie, you had better keep your infant away from EVERYONE (vaccinated and unvaccinated) for the first year of life because thanks to vaccines, moms no longer offer protection to their babies. THIS alarming fact was published in good ole Pediatrics.

  47. #47 Militant Agnostic
    August 24, 2008

    “and Ronny the Populist said it was a Communist plot.”

    From It Came Out of the Sky by John Fogerty

  48. #48 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Well, Canadian chick – or shall I say Spawn of Satan??

    We’re all friends here, Dawn — you can call her “Spawnie.”

    I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.

    No problem, Dawn. Nobody is going to make you vaccinate. On the other hand as you have pointed out you don’t have the right to endanger others for what you perceive to be your benefit. So it only makes sense that you don’t have contact with all of the rest of us who are (as you put it) such a horrible risk to you and yours through our spiritual contamination (the whole “Spawn of Satan” thing, right?)

    So you go ahead and live in your enclave, pure and safe from the coming Apocalypse, and we’ll run around wearing those scars (mark of the Beast?) on our upper left arms.

    You don’t endanger us by spreading diseases, we don’t endanger you by our “hidden diseases” [1] and nobody has to go around ringing a bell chanting “unclean, unclean!”

    [1] Dawn: “it is the VACCINATED whose pose the greatest risk of all! At least with the unvaccinated you will be able to see symptoms!!”

  49. #49 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    D.C Sessions stated: “No problem, Dawn. Nobody is going to make you vaccinate. On the other hand as you have pointed out you don’t have the right to endanger others for what you perceive to be your benefit. So it only makes sense that you don’t have contact with all of the rest of us who are (as you put it) such a horrible risk to you and yours through our spiritual contamination (the whole “Spawn of Satan” thing, right?)”

    Well, that is not fair D.C. Sessions. Your freshly vaccinated children get to infect others (again, with no obvious symptoms) and mine do not? I am expected to live in a bubble forever while yours get to run around free -shedding their viruses upon mankind? At least I would have the decency to keep them indoors while suffering from the illness – you on the other hand would go about your selfish existence bringing them out in public right AFTER they are vaccinated for weeks on end. How cruel and selfish of you.

  50. #50 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Well, that is not fair D.C. Sessions.

    Quoting your own words back at you? Deal.

  51. #51 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    The plural of anecdote is still not data.

    Also, the high blood pressure from the preeclampsia could have caused the deafness. And even some brain damage that has caused your psychotic need to push your agenda every where you go, like posting your stories several times on this blog.

    Please, get some real help.

  52. #52 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Oh please HCN, like you weren’t responsible for your child’s handicaps by way of vaccines? Are you really that much into denial? Like I said earlier, oh please you dumb broad. Genetics was a small factor, but vaccines played out the rest whether you choose to accept it or not, is up to you. I’d be pissed though….instead you are giving them glory. Go figure. In the life of an American I guess, Pretty creepy.

  53. #53 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn says:
    Like I said earlier, oh please you dumb broad

    Where have we seen that before?

  54. #54 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Oh please John, I just like the term. Nothing more. However, let’s get back to business. I am one very pissed off Mom on a mission. How dare anyone on this board say that their child’s “rights” trump mine. How insane is that? I guess I had better re-read the history books that my son is coming home with – apparently the teachings are warped these days. Far more warped than my former “lectures”.

  55. #55 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn, in what way do vaccines contribute to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? Do you even know what that is?

  56. #56 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??

  57. #57 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    As for broad, well that comes up with one of the other well known antivaxers. Well I am not sure that he is real, maybe a misguided joke carried way too far? I can hope.

    There is a line between a right and acting outside the social compact. Choosing to put others in danger because of a danger that exists primarily in your head is a good example of the later. If you can find a niche of reality with the amount of certainty you are demanding from vaccines, please tell us about. If you can’t then take a deep breath and live through the uncertainty. I know, it sucks sometimes but I am pretty sure it beats the alternatives.

  58. #58 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    John Wallace stated: “There is a line between a right and acting outside the social compact. Choosing to put others in danger because of a danger that exists primarily in your head is a good example of the later. If you can find a niche of reality with the amount of certainty you are demanding from vaccines, please tell us about. If you can’t then take a deep breath and live through the uncertainty. I know, it sucks sometimes but I am pretty sure it beats the alternatives”.

    Oh really Johnny? Whose perceived danger anyways…yours or mine? Please tell me something I don’t already know wiseguy.

  59. #59 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn, look up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (and in the case of my son, “with obstruction”). It is not muscle “damage”. Try again.

  60. #60 snerd
    August 25, 2008

    HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??

    Yes, add more question marks Dawn. Stupid him into submission! Victory is assured!

    While we wait for you to come up with an even slightly credible mechanism for this claim, I’d love to hear more about your theory of altered history, though I suspect the beta-Reticuli Reptoids may need to silence you if say to much in public.

  61. #61 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    I know exactly what it is HCN. Do you? Does anyone know the cause on this board? No. There could be numerous reasons for the blockage. Yes, muscle cell damage being one of them.

  62. #62 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    It is really pedantic I know and I apologize but I hate it when spell checkers make me Scottish (nothing personal to any Scots out there.) My last name really is Wallach.

    I thought it would be pretty clear that the dangers I was referring to are from vaccination. Nobody here denies that there are side effects of vaccines. Side effects of any intervention in any process are an unavoidable consequence of that reality thing. Instead we observe the results of vaccination and compare to the side effects of vaccines and marvel at the number of lives saved. Many posts above and in the other threads you are commenting on have shown how many lives have been saved from the measles vaccine and I think that iayork has an even better demonstration complete with graphs that you can see here.

    I think that other people are legitimately sorry for the pain your family is going through. But I also think you don’t know the suffering that vaccine preventable illnesses could cause for others.

  63. #63 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    Uh, I apparently don’t know how to use hrefs. The measles post that I was talking about is here http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2008/08/24/more-measles-and-vaccination/

  64. #64 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    BZZZZZZZZT, wrong again. This time I will help you, it is not muscle “damage”…

    4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?overview … “In Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM), the muscle thickening occurs without an obvious cause. In addition, microscopic examination of the heart muscle in HCM is abnormal. The normal alignment of muscle cells is absent and this abnormality is called “myocardial disarray”.”

    It is “obstruction” not “blockage”, the heart muscle has grown larger, and is near the mitral valve. This is not damage but an abnormality in growth.

    And it runs in families. It is genetic. So much so that there are differences in the way it presents itself in different countries. From www .4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?heart … “In a small proportion of patients (approximately 10%), myocardial thickening is predominantly at the tip or “apex” of the heart. This appears to be more common pattern of hypertrophy in Japan than in the West. Patients with Concentric and Apical Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy usually do not have a murmur”

    It is also fairly common, from 4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?common… “A paper by Dr. Barry Maron of the Minneapolis Heart Institute, August 1995, estimated that between 1 in 500 and 1 in 1000 births could be affected by HCM.”

    The genetic links have been researched:
    http://www.4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?id=80,0,0,1,0,0

    And I have found through conversations with my father where the genetic link was — in the part of the family “we don’t talk about” (it is not only that his mother was adopted, a common thing in “The West” over a century ago due to mother dying in childbirth, but because his grandmother left his grandfather to be with her girlfriend, oh, and something about his aunt, the only “natural” child of the couple being murdered by her husband). The link to genetics is so strong that the HCM organization worked to push the Genetic Information Nondiscrination Act (the link on 4HCM is broken):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_Information_Nondiscrimination_Act

    By the way, preeclamsia is also partially genetic. Though one family in our area found out the hard way. A mother-to-be wanted to avoid being in a hospital because her mother died in one. So when she was pregnant she went to a “Birthing Center”. While she was in labor her blood pressure went up and up, the midwives at the birthing center did not monitor her well enough, and both the woman and the baby died from the extreme blood pressure spike. That “Birthing Center” was closed permanently after her widower and almost father sued.

    It turned out her mother had died in the 1950s from preeclampsia. It was genetic,of the type that only hit after at least one successful pregnancy. ouch

  65. #65 Kev
    August 25, 2008

    “I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.”

    Bullshit. Sorry, to put it so plain Dawn, but you’re about as credible as a David Blaine show. Stop using your family to justify your ignorance.

  66. #66 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Many posts above and in the other threads you are commenting on have shown how many lives have been saved from the measles vaccine and I think that iayork has an even better demonstration complete with graphs that you can see here.

    The real payoff comes after elimination. The smallpox vaccine has the absolute top-ever benefit-to-risk ratio, since it’s saving many millions of lives every year, right now — and has absolutely zero side effects.

    Yeah, I know, the smallpox vaccine is supposed to be one of the nastier ones. But you can’t have side-effects from a vaccine you haven’t had, and today pretty much nobody gets the smallpox vaccine.

    The gift that really goes on giving.

  67. #67 PalMD
    August 25, 2008

    That is one of the best things that never occurred to me…

  68. #68 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    That is one of the best things that never occurred to me…

    I’m guessing you mean the elimination risk/benefit going to zero.

    I made a similar observation in your “old religion writ new” topic. That’s why I’m driven to spitting rage by these [expletive]s: when polio is on the verge of extinction, when measles was heading towards its last human generation, etc. they go and mount a “save the virus!” campaign.

    If you don’t like vaccines, your best bet is extinction of the diseases in the first place. And those never-to-be-sufficiently-condemned-bastards are making sure that generations to come will need the vaccines!

  69. #69 Keenacat
    August 25, 2008

    Of course muscle cell damage can occur during vaccination… Sticking a needle into a muscle tends to be pretty invasive.
    I would not recommend injecting vaccines into the heart muscle to avoid any damage thereof.

  70. #70 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    D.C. Sessions stated: “If you don’t like vaccines, your best bet is extinction of the diseases in the first place. And those never-to-be-sufficiently-condemned-bastards are making sure that generations to come will need the vaccines”!

    Actually, we are raising an entirely new generation of drug dependentant, chronically-ill and neurologically deficient children because of vaccines. Which is worse? The disease itself or the vaccine? Someone earlier stated that their child was in high-honors despite all of the numerous vaccines administered. Well, high-honors compared to what -their peers? I hate to tell you, but children are far less intelligent these days then they were say 20 years ago. The curriculum has been “dumbed down” over the years to accommodate society and their mental handicaps. So, YOU may think that your child is smart, but in reality, probably just average when comparing his/her capabilities to that of his/her peers say 20 years ago.

  71. #71 ozzy
    August 25, 2008

    “The curriculum has been “dumbed down” over the years to accommodate society and their mental handicaps.”

    Bullshit Dawn! AP Calculus is still AP Calculus, it hasn’t been dumbed down. The same concepts, with improvement due to new findings, in AP Physics are being taught now as they were 20 years ago. That’s the biggest load of BS that’s being floated around. Don’t bring up our recent “leave no child behind” test scores because these tests were never done on earlier generations. Show me the evidence, other than your “personal observations” which don’t account for anything since you can’t comprehend basic principles of probability and logical reasoning. The one thing that has changed is that children with disabilities are actually taught things instead of locking them in facilities so Mommy and Daddy don’t have to be ashamed.

  72. #72 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Actually, we are raising an entirely new generation of drug dependentant, chronically-ill and neurologically deficient children because of vaccines.

    So — I want to be sure I’m not misrepresenting you here — you think we would be better off on the whole by taking smallpox out of storage and reintroducing it to the world?

  73. #73 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    You are wrong Ozzy…the SATs are proof that the curriculum has been repeatedly dumbed down over the years. Ask yourself this question. Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning? More today, than ever before. Why are schools now using language based math text books? Why is it normal for a teenager not to be able to do more than 2nd grade math – again, comparing the test scores to peers of the same age? Normal? This was not seen in one school, but several across the country. Why do schools receive funding for every fully immunized child? Is that why they are keeping their mouths shut about this alarming problem too?

  74. #74 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Ask yourself this question. Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning?

    Because they’re learning from you, Dawn.

  75. #75 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    You really are an immature ignorant fool D.C. Sessions. You don’t even have enough common sense to think “outside of the box”. Don’t worry though, you will never hear “I told you so” out of my mouth after you figure out what you have done to your children.

  76. #76 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Canadianchick stated: “The fact that I am immunosuppressed, unable to take live vaccine boosters and am therefore very much at risk of contracting the diseases…”.

    Canadianchick, I actually think we need to watch out for eachother as citizens. Everything that Canada does will directly affect the U.S. and everything that the U.S. does will directly affect Canada. After all, the U.S., Canada, and Mexico will become one nation in the very near future. Maybe you are not aware that Canada is currently trying to “ban” vitamins/herbal supplements and impose heavy fines/time in jail? Also, certain groups here in the U.S. are trying desperately to “force vaccinate” all individuals – whether immune compromised or not – you would be forced to have the vaccine also. They almost got away with it too in N.Y. The U.S. is also trying desperately to ban vitamins/supplements in this country too. The FDA wants a piece of the pie now. So, if your immune system is relying on this type of alternative means, I do hope that you join the resistance movement to stop these insane organizations. Your health and the health of many others depend on it. Do you really want Big Pharma in control of what you can/cannot take as treatment?

  77. #77 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    You really are an immature ignorant fool D.C. Sessions.

    Should we take that as confirmation that I have correctly represented your position?

  78. #78 ozzy
    August 25, 2008

    Actually Dawn the SAT scores from 1972 to 2005 have remained pretty constant according to the College Board, but I bet they made up those numbers also.

    “Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning?”

    And you can show me that there were less in earlier generations? Right. Well Dawn, basic logic dictates that you can’t make any judgement regarding incidence increases when the metrics used to assess the condition have changed. Learning disabilities have only recently been accepted by society. Ever think that maybe we are testing for disabilities more often now instead of just labeling Johnny a dumb or stupid kid.

  79. #79 Natalie
    August 25, 2008

    Why is it normal for a teenager not to be able to do more than 2nd grade math – again, comparing the test scores to peers of the same age? Normal?

    Who considers this normal?

    This was not seen in one school, but several across the country.

    Seen by whom?

    Why do schools receive funding for every fully immunized child?

    Since schools receive all of their funding on a per child basis, it stands to reason that they would receive funding for every fully immunized child. They also receive funding for partially immunized children and non-immunized children.

    Also, certain groups here in the U.S. are trying desperately to “force vaccinate” all individuals – whether immune compromised or not

    That’s quite the extreme assertion there, Dawn. You have a source to back that up?

  80. #80 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    ozzy said “Learning disabilities have only recently been accepted by society. Ever think that maybe we are testing for disabilities more often now instead of just labeling Johnny a dumb or stupid kid.”

    And before 1975 a school district could refuse to allow a child to attend if they could not do something as “simple” as speaking (like my oldest son). There are many stories of people being institutionalized when they were actually deaf (happened in our state more than once, and a “School of the Deaf” was available). Some history here:
    http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/leg/idea/history.html … “Before the enactment of Public Law 94-142, the fate of many individuals with disabilities was likely to be dim. Too many individuals lived in state institutions for persons with mental retardation or mental illness. In 1967, for example, state institutions were homes for almost 200,000 persons with significant disabilities. Many of these restrictive settings provided only minimal food, clothing, and shelter. Too often, persons with disabilities, such as Allan, were merely accommodated rather than assessed, educated, and rehabilitated. (See side bar: Allan’s Story.)”

    I also would be surprised if Dawn had taken the SAT herself (or realized that the maximum is now 2400). Though, I have never taken it either, I took the ACT in 1974. High school students are not required to take the SAT, and many do not. My oldest son took the Compass test to place in community college.

  81. #81 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Natalie said “That’s quite the extreme assertion there, Dawn. You have a source to back that up?”

    Well she hasn’t given a valid source yet, why would she start now? She gets all her facts (like the polio vaccine created by a fellow called “Saulk”) from a couple of Yahoo groups, like the one that was blogged about here:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/green_our_vaccines_antivaccinationist.php

  82. #82 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 26, 2008

    Well … The “Save the Virus” society may have Jenny McCarthy, but the Brazilian rubella vaccine campaign that is currently running has some blazing star power behind it

    Karina Bacchi:
    http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210×600/karina-bacchi-145707.jpg

    Preta Gil: http://www.jovempanfm.com.br/bimg/preta_gil.jpg

    Brazilian Judo star and model Flavio Canto
    http://lh4.google.com/image/lickspot/Rn_cuY9TUqI/AAAAAAAAG0g/9o8WMBOWiFY/s400/flavio_canto_01_05.jpg

    Singer Margareth Meneses:
    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/319153437_ba3c80aa21.jpg?v=0

    And a whole bunch of others.

  83. #83 HCN
    August 30, 2008

    Dawn said (trying to equate a genetic form of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy to vaccines): “HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??”

    O..K..A..Y… being that HCM is caused by the thickening of heart muscle, not real damage, but a condition that causes high blood pressure through the mitral valve (not that Dawn would understand that at all) — Today, I gave blood, again (I am at the three gallon level!), and for the first time I was asked if I or my mother had spent more than six months in Mexico (by the way, folks… it is in North America), Central or South America. I said said “yes”, since I was born there and spent a third of my youth prior to attending university here.

    It turns out that the question was prompted by concerns with “Chagas Disease”. This is something that is endemic in areas between Mexico and down as far south as the middle of Chile and Argentina. Its main vector is an insect, but can be passed through breast milk, hence the question about the mother. As it turns out, it can cause chronic heart disease!

    We shall see what my blood analysis shows.

    But since the last time I was in that part of the world was 1975, and the heart condition is actually genetic, and my other children (who were breastfed twice as long as the oldest) so far show no sign of any heart problems… I am betting that I have never been bitten by a “Kissing Bug” and do not have Chagas Disease. Though I have had dengue fever, and would not wish that on anyone (okay, maybe Dawn and some other internet loons, but only because I and both of my sisters survived — even if it is called “bone break fever”).

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