Respectful Insolence

I realize that I’ve thanked Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield before for giving the U.S. the gift of a measles resurgence. Originally, when I started this sarcastic little exercise, I assumed that it would be 5-10 years before we in the States caught up with the level of endemic measles that has been resurgent in the U.K. in the decade since Andrew Wakefield published his shoddy, fraudulent, pseudoscientific, litigation-driven article in The Lancet claiming that the MMR vaccine was responsible for “autistic enterocolitis,” leading to an anti-MMR hysteria that drove down vaccination rates and made measles endemic again in the U.K. However, I rapidly realized that I was wrong and that measles would come roaring back in the U.S. far faster than that.

Here’s yet another story about how it has done just that:

The number of measles cases in the U.S. is at its highest level since 1997, and nearly half of those involve children whose parents rejected vaccination, government health officials reported Thursday.

The number of cases is still small, just 131, but that’s just for the first seven months of the year and doctors are troubled by the trend. There were only 42 cases for all of last year.

“We’re seeing a lot more spread. That is concerning to us,” said Dr. Jane Seward, of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Pediatricians are frustrated, saying they are having to spend more time convincing parents the shot is safe.

“This year, we certainly have had parents asking more questions,” said Dr. Ari Brown, an Austin, Texas, physician who is a spokeswoman for the American Academy of Pediatrics.

The CDC’s review found that a number of cases involved home-schooled children not required to have the vaccines.

[…]

It is no longer endemic to the United States, but every year some Americans pick it up while traveling abroad and bring it home. Measles epidemics have exploded in Israel, Switzerland and some other countries. But high U.S. childhood vaccination rates have prevented major outbreaks here.

In a typical year, only one outbreak occurs in the United States, infecting perhaps 10 to 20 people. So far this year through July 30 the country has seen seven outbreaks, including one in Illinois with 30 cases, said Seward, deputy director of the CDC’s Division of Viral Diseases.

None of the 131 patients died, but 15 were hospitalized.

The article notes that vaccination rates in the U.S. are still over 90%, still high enough for herd immunity to hold sway, but that outbreak pockets, where lower vaccination rates are the rule and herd immunity has become shaky, are forming. That’s what’s allowing these outbreaks to occur. Here’s the kicker:

Of this year’s total, 122 were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Some were unvaccinated because the children were under age 1, making them too young to get their first measles shot.

In 63 of those cases _ almost all of them 19 or younger _ the patient or their parents refused vaccination, the CDC reported.

In Washington state, an outbreak was traced to a religious conference, including 16 school-aged children who were not vaccinated because of parents’ beliefs. Eleven of those kids were home schooled and not subject to vaccination rules in public schools.

The Illinois outbreak _ triggered by a teenager who had traveled to Italy _ included 25 home-schooled children, according to the CDC report.

So, rejoice, Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, and all the other antivaccine activists (or their willing dupes who oh-so-piously claim they are really and truly “not antivaccine”) spreading misinformation, pseudoscience, and fear about vaccines! You’re winning. You’re succeeding in casting doubt on the safety of vaccines to the point that it’s causing real problems for our public health system:

The nation once routinely saw hundreds of thousands of measles cases each year, and hundreds of deaths. But immunization campaigns were credited with dramatically reducing the numbers. The last time health officials saw this many cases was 1997, when 138 were reported. Last year, there were only 42 U.S. cases.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has made educating parents about the safety of vaccines one of its top priorities this year, in part because busy doctors have grown frustrated at the amount of time they’ve been spending answering parents’ questions about things they read on the Internet or heard from TV talk shows.

In June, the CDC interviewed 33 physicians in Austin, suburban Seattle and Hollywood, Fla., about childhood vaccinations. Several complained about patient backlogs caused by parents stirred up by information of dubious scientific merit, according to the CDC report.

Yes, each and every of you anti-vaccinationists or enablers or sympathizers with antivaccinationists (but above all, Jenny McCarthy, given that you’ve willingly–nay, enthusiastically!–become the celebrity face of the antivaccination movement, going so far as to get all your Hollywood friends to show up at Generation Rescue charities, to organize antivaccine marches on Washington, and get professional wrestling to help you raise money for the cause), this resurgence in measles is the result of your tireless labor in scaring parents with lies and pseudoscience to the point where they fear and refuse vaccination. Now your efforts are really beginning to bear fruit, and we’re catching up with the U.K., which has a decade-long head start. Measles is coming back, Who knows? If you keep it up, you could reach the golden age of pre-MMR, as described in the CDC report itself:

In the United States, measles caused 450 reported deaths and 4,000 cases of encephalitis annually before measles vaccine became available in the mid-1960s (1). Through a successful measles vaccination program, the United States eliminated endemic measles transmission (1). Sustaining elimination requires maintaining high MMR vaccine coverage rates, particularly among preschool (>90% 1-dose coverage) and school-aged children (>95% 2-dose coverage) (7). High coverage levels provide herd immunity, decreasing everyone’s risk for measles exposure and affording protection to persons who cannot be vaccinated. However, herd immunity does not provide 100% protection, especially in communities with large numbers of unvaccinated persons. For the foreseeable future, measles importations into the United States will continue to occur because measles is still common in Europe and other regions of the world. Within the United States, the current national MMR vaccine coverage rate is adequate to prevent the sustained spread of measles. However, importations of measles likely will continue to cause outbreaks in communities that have sizeable clusters of unvaccinated persons.

But, hey, if you succeed, Jenny, it’ll be far more than just isolated communities of unvaccinated persons. Then the measles can really go to town! After all:

Measles is one of the first diseases to reappear when vaccination coverage rates fall. Ongoing outbreaks are occurring in European countries where rates of vaccination coverage are lower than those in the United States, including Austria, Italy, and Switzerland (3,4). In June 2008, the United Kingdom’s Health Protection Agency declared that, because of a drop in vaccination coverage levels (to 80%–85% among children aged 2 years), measles was again endemic in the United Kingdom (3,8), 14 years after it had been eliminated. Since April 2008, two measles-related deaths have been reported in Europe, both in children ineligible to receive MMR vaccine because of congenital immunologic compromise (4,8). Such children depend on herd immunity for protection from the disease, as do children aged <12 months, who normally are too young to receive the vaccine. Otherwise healthy children with measles also are at risk for severe complications, including encephalitis and pneumonia, which can lead to permanent disability or death.

And that was just the measles. Keep it up, Jenny and other antivaccine activists, and you could probably drive vaccination rates low enough that pertussis, polio, Haemophilus influenza b, the mumps, and a whole lot of other vaccine-preventable diseases make a similar comeback. Heck, if you work hard enough, maybe they’ll all become endemic again. It’ll be just like the old days! Won’t that be grand? Isn’t that what you want? That’ll be the reward for your success.

I’m sure all the suffering, hospitalized, and dead children in the future will thank you for your tireless efforts to save them from autism now.

Comments

  1. #1 MarkySparky
    August 21, 2008

    How comforting.

    College classes are starting up next week, so we should get some real nice exposure patterns brewing in dorms across the country…

    I’m teaching a medical micro lab this fall, and the first day of class is going to be dedicated to vaccination requirements. Hopefully I can get their young minds on the right track.

  2. #2 Ranson
    August 21, 2008

    There are few things that can turn me into a boiling cauldron of hate, Orac. The results of antivaccinationist propaganda is one of them. People were luck enough that there were no deaths during this outbreak. Do we know if the hospitalizations resulted in any lasting damage?

    I’m not a violent person, in general. That doesn’t keep me from harboring the desire the lavish a savage beating on those who endanger us all with this nonsense. Maybe, instead, people will start walking up to them with pictures of smiling, happy children, and say “This child, my child, is dead. Because of you.”

    Likely, that won’t wake them up. But maybe it’ll shame them. It’s all a nonbeliever in the afterlife can hope for.

  3. #3 DonZilla
    August 21, 2008

    Good grief. This shouldn’t take long to spread throughout nursing homes and other senior care places as well, between the visiting kids and the staff who have small children.

    But but but Americans Love Children So Much!!! That’s why we’re bringing back childhood diseases! (And going to other countries to foster and adopt, because all the children here are just loved bunches and bunches already. Not.)

  4. #4 mike stanton
    August 21, 2008

    Vaccination denialists should go to Africa to see how they have achieved a 90 per cent reduction in measles related deaths since the turn of the century thanks to vaccines. There are still around a quarter of a million deaths every year world wide. The last thing we need is unvaxed Americans carrying diseases to the rest of the world.

  5. #5 Patrick
    August 21, 2008

    Should they get the Uranium Olympic medal, for helping to encourage a 311 percent increase over last years caseload?

    (Along with all of that shiny grey they can have bonus mutations!)

  6. #6 Liz Ditz
    August 21, 2008

    Change the label:

    Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, and all the other antivaccine activists promoters of preventable infectious diseases.

    I dearly wish that vaccine-refusers could be sued for damages when outbreaks occur.

  7. #7 Ms. Clark
    August 21, 2008

    It’s disgusting what Jenny McCarthy and JB Handley, Lenny Schafer and the rest of the flaming antivaxers (even those who deny that they are antivaccine but who quote the same antivax nonsense) have done.

    Why shouldn’t there be a diphtheria (or polio) outbreak here if someone travels from an area where the disease is active and brings it back here? Think of all the kids in day care centers. Those places are perfect for spreading germs. Doctors aren’t used to seeing these diseases because they’ve disappeared due to vaccines. They aren’t necessarily going to jump on them with the proper treatments if they don’t recognized them immediately.

    I wonder how many people are actively seeking out pockets of measles infection so they can have their beloved measles parties. JB Handley’s youngest hasn’t been vaccinated for measles, if he’s following his advice to others. Is he going to take that child to a measles party or lock her in a bubble to prevent her from getting measles?

    I hope someone puts a full page ad in the NYT and USA today “thanking” these bozos and the morons in TV news (and Oprah and “The View”) who have aided them in spreading their lies. They’ll need to be thanked for the death, hospitalizations and maiming they will be doing if the diseases continue to spread as they are.

  8. #8 Diane
    August 21, 2008

    Ah good ol’ Washington. First it was pertussis, now measles. If herd immunity keeps dropping like this, my fully vaccinated children are increasingly at risk for getting these diseases, though they probably not suffer the full effects of the disease. And my newborn nephew is hugely at risk if measles spreads to his area. Thanks a lot.

  9. #9 Brian
    August 21, 2008

    The last thing we need is unvaxed Americans carrying diseases to the rest of the world.

    Which would be sort of ironic.

  10. #10 Hmn?
    August 21, 2008

    I’d like to know when it is that grotesque anti-vaccinationism becomes domestic bio-terrorism? The anti-vaccine parents have been gloating and clucking over the incident of the anthrax researcher allegedly sending anthrax in the mail, how is what they are doing any different in the outcome?

  11. #11 TheProbe
    August 21, 2008

    Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, et al should be required to establish a fund to compensate those children injured by vaccine preventable diseases.

    Wasn’t there a successful lawsuit several years ago against a paid spokeperson for some financial product?

  12. #12 kristina
    August 21, 2008

    And then AOA (not intentinonally?) actually says something accurate: “The tone of the articles makes it clear to the British people that measles is life-threatening and the possibility of a massive outbreak is very real. ”

    Hope the American people can figure that out too, at least in Hollywood.

  13. #13 Ruth
    August 21, 2008

    My isurance coverage is reduced because we don’t smoke, have smoke detectors, etc. Shouldn’t parents who refuse to vaccinate pay higher premiums for failing to prevent the preventable?

  14. #14 Socrates
    August 21, 2008

    Has Wakefield offered his take on this?

  15. #15 RJ
    August 21, 2008

    Read some of the comments on the AoA website about this issue. According to some, they think these diseases are safer (“more natural”) than the vaccines and that getting the diseases is better because their children’s immunity will be stronger from it. Some have even said straight out that they would rather their children get the diseases than receive the vaccinations.

    Wow.

    But don’t worry! According to them there’s nothing to worry about! Measles hasn’t killed anybody in the U.S. this year, so there is nothing to worry about.

  16. #16 HCN
    August 21, 2008

    Mike Stanton wrote “The last thing we need is unvaxed Americans carrying diseases to the rest of the world.”

    That has already happened:
    http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=3308 …”The index case of the cluster was thought to be a 17-year-old American studying in the United Kingdom, who had visited Jewish relatives in Antwerp and was diagnosed as a clinical measles case by a Belgian GP at the time of his visit.”

    (okay, to be fair he did pick it up in the UK, but still he is an American!)

  17. #17 RJ
    August 21, 2008

    “Shouldn’t parents who refuse to vaccinate pay higher premiums for failing to prevent the preventable?”

    YES! Of course they should. Dollars for vaccines or thousands for hospitalization and future complications.

  18. #18 Blair
    August 21, 2008

    Sadly the idiocy travels and so we get this headline up in Langely BC: Mumps infection hits town. Even more annoyingly our local paper in describing the outbreak goes above and beyond the call to ignore the elephant in the room and not point out that the outbreak is because so many parents in this area don’t vaccinate.(http://www.canada.com/langleyadvance/news/story.html?id=93496699-c577-4510-b4d5-831dbb6e5169)

    Needless to say a detailed letter to the editor was sent…will it do any good? Doubtful!

  19. #19 HolfordWatch
    August 21, 2008

    Last year Polite Dissent reproduced a Batman cartoon that probably wouldn’t make a lot of sense to generations who have had the benefit of vaccination Courtesy of your roll-call of dishonour, sadly, that cartoon may yet be easily understood by current and future generations of children and their parents.

  20. #20 Liz S
    August 21, 2008

    As a 45yo graduate student, I was surprised that I was required to get childhood vaccinations again upon re-entering university. I did so willingly despite being relatively certain that I had been fully vaccinated as a child. I did have rubella in the early 70s, so it is possible that I didn’t have the MMR. I remember rubella being the worst illness ever befalling me and I certainly wouldn’t want to go through that as an adult. I was a bit perturbed about being asked to get re-vaccinated, but when an encephalitis outbreak occurred on my campus, I was certainly glad I did.

  21. #21 Joseph
    August 21, 2008

    I think it’s actually due to the Hannah Poling case. This had a measurable impact greater than the publicity generated by Jenny McCarthy’s initial appearances in the media. Prior to this, 2002 was the heyday of the antivaccination movement, some time after Wakefield, a bit after the thimerosal hypothesis was proposed. We have yet to see if the Hannah Poling case is bigger than Wakefield historically. It seems though that these bouts of publicity don’t last very long, so there’s no need to panic yet. I hope I’m right about this.

  22. #22 Orac
    August 21, 2008

    I hope you’re right about this, too, but I think this time feels different. There’s a lot more celebrity, money (celebrity fundraisers and WWE events), and marketing savvy in pushing the anti-vaccine propaganda. More people than I can ever recall seem to be falling for it, and the antivax movement is getting its message out far more effectively than I can remember before, at least in this country. I really do fear that this time it’s different. I really do fear that this time there will be long-lasting damage to public health.

  23. #23 Dan
    August 21, 2008

    Orac, you might be proud of NBC Nightly News. They did story about the measles outbreaks and placed the blame squarely on those parents that do not vaccinate. They did not try to keep the story balanced. They showed one set of parents where all they got to say was that they thought vaccines may do more harm then good. No mention of Autism. Major points raised were:

    1. Young parents do not remember the devastation the disease caused in the past (150 deaths per year) so that they think it is no big deal.
    2. Misinformation from the internet and other sources misinforming parents (no they did not mention Jenny McCarthy by name).
    3. Measle is largely being brought into the country by unvaccinated American traveling overseas or foreigners coming into the country.

    But the news story squarely placed the blame on parents that do not vaccinate because they believe the misinformation given them. I not sure who the woman was who they interviewed. I am currently watching CBS to see if they have a similar story. Actually CBS has a commercial break and that will be there next story.

  24. #24 Liesl
    August 21, 2008

    Surely there’s a way to enforce accountability. Or, will be once this gets as bad as it is going to get.

  25. #25 Dan
    August 21, 2008

    CBS news live blogging. Main points made:

    1. Measles making a come back and doctors are worried.
    2. This is due to parents not getting children vaccinated.
    3. In past 500 deaths a year caused be measles.
    4. Interview one mother who makes the link between vaccines and Autism.
    5. There is no link between vaccines and Autism.
    6. Same women, looking like the doctor, interviewed as with NBC. I guest she works for the CDC.

    I thought the NBC reporting was better as they never mentioned Autism. Anyways, that we my attempt to write while listening and I may have missed some points.

  26. #26 Mark
    August 21, 2008

    I know what my anti-vaccination friend would say upon reading this

    “…nearly half of those involve children whose parents rejected vaccination.”

    This must mean that slightly more than half involved children whose parents didn’t reject vaccination, so the vaccines don’t work. (Of course for a numerate, rational person that might strengthen the argument for vaccination, to get overall levels of immunity up and protect the few who aren’t immune. But anti-vaccination people aren’t especially rational or numerate, in my experience.)

  27. #27 Dan
    August 21, 2008

    One last comment, should Jenny ever read this:

    Jenny, you ignorant slut, when actual deaths occur will you still be able to look yourself in the mirror?

  28. #28 Mark
    August 21, 2008

    Sorry, my previous comment was a bit silly. The cases that don’t involve “children whose parents rejected vaccination” might well involve adults and I think there was a mention in the article of people picking measles up overseas. But I’m curious: is the vaccination 100% effective in giving immunity and, if not, what are the implications of this?

  29. #29 D. C. Sessions
    August 21, 2008

    Pertussis:

    Keep it up, Jenny and other antivaccine activists, and you could probably drive vaccination rates low enough that pertussis, polio, Haemophilus influenza b, the mumps, and a whole lot of other vaccine-preventable diseases make a similar comeback.

    To be fair, herd immunity isn’t much of a factor for pertussis since the immunity isn’t lifelong and adults can be (relatively) asymptomatic carriers.

  30. #30 Diane
    August 21, 2008

    “Read some of the comments on the AoA website about this issue. According to some, they think these diseases are safer (“more natural”) than the vaccines and that getting the diseases is better because their children’s immunity will be stronger from it. Some have even said straight out that they would rather their children get the diseases than receive the vaccinations.”

    Also, back in the late 90s, Mothering magazine (letters? features?) wrote that children who had experienced measles, etc, “spiritually grew”: that weeks of being sick profoundly changed the child for the better. All I can say is…wtf?

  31. #31 daedalus2u
    August 21, 2008

    wtf! is right. If you are such a lousy parent and giving your child such a spiritually impoverished lifestyle that your child grows spiritually (again, wtf!) by coming down with measles, you should stop at one.

  32. #32 Melissa (oddharmonic)
    August 21, 2008

    “children who had experienced measles, etc, “spiritually grew”: that weeks of being sick profoundly changed the child for the better.”

    I had a severe case of chicken pox as a child. You could argue that I spiritually grew from it; now, when things look bad, I can think “it’s not as bad as having chicken pox in the vagina.”

  33. #33 The Ridger
    August 21, 2008

    @Mark: No. It’s not. No vaccine is. Which makes it all the more imperative that everyone get vaccinated, to raise the herd immunity level as high as possible.

  34. #34 Dianne
    August 21, 2008

    This must mean that slightly more than half involved children whose parents didn’t reject vaccination, so the vaccines don’t work.

    Or occurred in children too young to be vaccinated or in adults from overseas who have not yet been vaccinated or in people who are immunosuppressed and either can not receive the vaccine or have lowered efficacy due to the immunosuppression or in people with true severe adverse reactions (i.e. allergy to one of the components) who therefore can not be vaccinated, etc. It is perfectly true that the vaccine is not 100% effective and that is one reason why herd immunity is important. However, that is not the only issue involved.

  35. #35 Carlie
    August 21, 2008

    Interesting that your anti-vax trolls haven’t shown up yet. What’s the matter y’all, having trouble figuring out how to spin a huge increase in measles cases to your advantage? Nope, they’ll stay far away from this one.

  36. #36 Dr Aust
    August 21, 2008

    *sigh*

    Ever get the feeling that the human race is doomed due to its own “re-emergent stupidity”*?

    * Anti-vax craziness, AIDS denialism, climate change rejection-ism, assorted Alt.Reality superstition, fundamentalist religion etc etc.

    Apologies for the gloom – reading these anti-vax stories get me depressed and angry. Plus the wide exposure this sh*t gets, especially via celebrities and wingnut commentators, reminds me what a bunch of morons our celebrity-obsessed media culture rams down our throats every day.

  37. #37 Just my 2 cents
    August 21, 2008

    Do any of you actually think that this could partially be the fault of the Pharma industries and the Medical community?

    Pharma has knowingly lied about the safety of their products. They hired doctors to sign off on falsified safety studies (Vioxx, Paxil). They knowingly sell HIV tainted drugs to foreign countries (Bayer). And as Orac wrote about in another blog, Doctors are used to push across quasi-legal seeded trials for drug companies.

    Could it be that the faith of the public has waned because they perceive (this is just my observation, mind you) that the Medical Community (and many of the public lump the Pharma Industry in with the Medical Community) is more interested in profits than in the health and well being of their patients? I’m not saying this to argue, but I think this is a valid point that should be thought about very carefully.

    Anyway, just thought I’d chime in. Peace everyone.

  38. #38 franklin
    August 21, 2008

    Here are the numbers on vaccination status from the MMWR paper:

    Among the 131 measles patients, 123 were U.S. residents, of whom 99 (80%) were aged less than 20 years (Table). Five (4%) of the 123 patients had received 1 dose of MMR vaccine, six (5%) had received 2 doses of MMR vaccine, and 112 (91%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. Among these 112 patients, 95 (85%) were eligible for vaccination, and 63 (66%) of those were unvaccinated because of philosophical or religious beliefs (Figure 2).

    So only 11 of the 123 patients were known to have received 1 or 2 doses of the vaccine, whereas 63 were unvaccinated because of philosophical or religious beliefs.

  39. #39 Calli Arcale
    August 21, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense. It’s easy to suspect Merck (for instance) of faking data about vaccinations when they’ve been caught red-handed covering up data about Vioxx, and from that suspicion, it’s not a very far walk to start doubting vaccinations in general, especially since vaccinations are an unpleasant experience that most parents dread.

    So yes, the misdeeds of the pharmaceutical giants certainly do feed this paranoia. And that is very unfortunate.

  40. #40 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 21, 2008

    As a skeptical observation, the CDC has issued health advisories with regard to Measles. Every health care agency in the Western hemisphere is actively looking to isolate and identify measles cases.

    Receiving a measles vaccine induces shedding in the recipient for up to 6 weeks. I’m quite certain that when people receive MV that they don’t stay “away from society” after doing so. They could just as easily expose *anyone*. If that someone, felt slightly ill but never presented some of the more classic measles symptoms like Koplik spots, isn’t it possible that this exposure goes unnoticed? I find that to be a bit of a double standard.

    When Hedrich wrote about measles and the effect of herd immunity in 1933, it was in absence of a measles vaccine.

    Are we convinced this is all associated with importation? I apologize if this was addressed in the surveillance report and I missed it. They noted two genotypes.

    Respectfully,
    AA

  41. #41 Militant Agnostic
    August 21, 2008

    Add AA to the list of trolls who are unable to use Occam’s Razor because they are not allowed to have sharp objects.

  42. #42 Julian
    August 21, 2008

    They would rather their children get Polio than the vaccine because it makes for a stronger immunity? I’ve seen polio; baring immediate and extreme intervention, you don’t live through it, and if you do manage to avoid dying a horrible protracted death you’re disabled for the rest of your life, carrying around what amounts to at least one dead limb with you forever. Yeah, that’s some immunity you get there, damn disease-worshiping fools.

  43. #43 ozzy
    August 21, 2008

    I think the blame, unfortunately, has to fall on the internet. With the ease at which people have access to whatever quack theory that’s out there, I think people mistakenly feel empowered by this. In the past, parents would have to go to the bookstore, pick out a book and spend money to gain access to the “data-free opinion” of the day. Now all it takes is typing a few keywords, doing a Google search and earning their University of Google degree. The rest of us have to go through grueling years of academic training all to have it thrown back in our faces as Pharma shills, etc. While I can’t discount the fact that, overall, the internet has been a force of good in terms of dissemination of informaiton, I think the current situation is an example of the “dark side” of the internet.

    By the way, isn’t it funny that laypeople fail to realize how big these measles outbreaks would be were it not for vaccination. Think of the network of kids these infected kids come in contact. There is no doubt in my mind that these episodes prove the power of vaccination.

  44. #44 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 21, 2008

    Militant Agnostic,

    I’m confused as to why you think this kind of childish banter is useful or furthers your point. My observations are clearly demonstrated, in not only the circular, but also here:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11858860?dopt=AbstractPlus

    Occam’s razor makes a lot more sense in the 14th century, before man started to inject disease into human beings. We’ve been administering disease (attenuated, weakened, whatever) in a way that would never happen in nature. Any person with a glimmer of evolutionary understanding realizes that we’ve only been experimenting for a very short time and the ecological consequence is unknown.

    I’ll get back to lurking. If my posts here have constituted trolling, then it’s clear this effort is in vain.

    Cheers,
    AA

  45. #45 Dawn
    August 21, 2008

    Yahoo! Cheers for measles making a comeback….maybe now it will shift back to the “normal” age group that it once was – instead of inflicting exposed adults who were previously vaccinated in childhood. Oh, I forgot the solution is to inject EVERYONE every 10 years, right?? What about the number of children who have “mysteriously” regressed into autism after the MMR, or the children who now suffer from diabetes due to the live-virus mumps vaccine that makes up the MMR, or how about just the sheer number of deaths that have occurred due to this one damn vaccine? Oops…forgot again. They don’t count. Yahoo, McCarthy and Wakefield!!

  46. #46 Jay Gordon
    August 21, 2008

    Orac, this post is truly not worthy of you. Seriously. The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45. In a population of 350,000,000 Americans, you and any other scientist would have deemed this “statistically insignificant” if it suited your purposes.

    D.C. Sessions writes: “To be fair, herd immunity isn’t much of a factor for pertussis since the immunity isn’t lifelong and adults can be (relatively) asymptomatic carriers.”

    Well said, sir.

    Best,

    Jay

  47. #47 Measles Free
    August 21, 2008

    A Wisconsin newspaper had an article in May 2008 about their outbreak. See here. It mentioned:

    While no one has died in this latest outbreak, 20% were hospitalized. An outbreak in Milwaukee in 1989-’90 killed five children.

    Since 2000, one in every 250 Americans who got the disease died.

    Federal health officials declared that measles had been eliminated from the United States in 2000. However, without requirements for people coming into the country to be immunized, its presence couldn’t be stopped.

    Schuchat said three factors were contributing to the spike in cases – importation of the disease from countries such as Switzerland and Israel; inadequate safeguards in health care settings; and growing pockets of parents who choose not to immunize their children.

    In the last 10 years, the number of parents in Wisconsin opting out of having their children immunized because of personal convictions has tripled, from 1% of the population to 3%. Waivers for religious or medical reasons have remained steady during this period.

    …In the latest outbreak, health officials have determined that nearly all confirmed cases were linked to people traveling abroad.

    According to Schuchat, Europe is undergoing a widespread outbreak. More than 2,000 people are infected in Switzerland, and more than 1,000 in Israel.

    …In this latest outbreak, two-thirds of children between 16 months and 19 years old had not been immunized because of religious or personal beliefs. Thirteen children were too young to be vaccinated.

    What’s the deal with Switzerland and Israel? Can we do anything about foreigners entering the US or simply ensure we are all vaccinated? My state allows school children to opt out for religious reasons, but not personal reasons. Other states allow personal reasons. There’s nothing to prevent states from making it mandatory with no exclusions. My university also required proof of vaccinations plus a current tetanus shot. Not sure what to do with the home-schooled children. If pregnant women are also vulnerable, it’s a public health threat. Cripes, if people make a big deal about second-hand smoke and public smoking, surely they should be concerned about this as well.

    Just My Two Cents, it’s not like vaccines are anything new as opposed to new drugs. I think people have been led to be unnecessarily paranoid because of the autism claims.

    Well, this is just maddening.

  48. #48 isles
    August 21, 2008

    Dan, if you’re still around, who reported the CBS story? They aired that execrable piece by Sharyl Attkisson a few weeks ago. One would hope they learned a little something from the feedback that followed it.

  49. #49 I am so wise
    August 21, 2008

    It is time for the state to recognize that breeding is not synonymous with good parenting and act accordingly.

  50. #50 Dawn
    August 21, 2008

    Measles free stated: “…In the latest outbreak, health officials have determined that nearly all confirmed cases were linked to people traveling abroad”.

    That is BULLSHIT! A Racine, Wisconsin (totally vaccinated) 5th grader started the outbreak! Don’t believe me?? Check with Tom Murray, Katie DeLong, and Lauren Leamanczyk about the story from TMJ4 News. They covered it and spoke with the child’s doctor.

    I am so sick and tired of these lies that are spread by people like you.

    How many people have died from the MMR vaccine alone? I forgot – they don’t count. Total bullshit! You people literally make me sick.

  51. #51 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Liz Ditz stated: “I dearly wish that vaccine-refusers could be sued for damages when outbreaks occur”.

    Well, health insurances companies and vaccine manufacturers refuse to pay for recognized vaccine damage. So, I guess fair is fair, isn’t it?? I’m sure that the parents of Autistic children would like some payback too. After all, if the dimwit doctor doesn’t record everything properly in the medical records – odds are the case will lose in the Vaccine Injury Court of Claims.

    Now, why the heck is insurance nearly unaffordable for most Americans? Vaccines…..after all, it is all of YOUR children that are on all of the medication – thanks pro-vaccine community for nearly eliminating healthcare in this country due to higher premiums to cover your drug dependent children!! Oh, I forgot – GO OBAMA and his national healthcare plan!!

  52. #52 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Julian stated: “They would rather their children get Polio than the vaccine because it makes for a stronger immunity? I’ve seen polio; baring immediate and extreme intervention, you don’t live through it, and if you do manage to avoid dying a horrible protracted death you’re disabled for the rest of your life, carrying around what amounts to at least one dead limb with you forever. Yeah, that’s some immunity you get there, damn disease-worshiping fools”.

    Well Julian, was this before or after the mass “herd” was injected with Saulk’s polio vaccine? He infected tens of thousands with the crap – including himself and child.

    People are bound to make repeat mistakes. Vaccines and history are proof of that nonsense.

  53. #53 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Please read Dr. Jay Gordon’s post at 11:22 p.m. Read it and weep you fools.

  54. #54 Undergraduate-gal
    August 22, 2008

    2cents:

    What do you mean “HIV-tainted” drugs. How can a drug be HIV-tainted?

  55. #55 Just My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    Measles Free, I’m going to have to disagree with you on that one. I understand what you’re saying, but you have to look at it from a parent’s perspective. Calli Arcale summed it up nicely. Vaccination is a scary business for many parents. They go into the pediatricians office thinking, “What if my child has a reaction? What if all those antivaccination people are right?” And then, they see all of this stuff about Merck and Co. lying about safety studies, and they think to themselves, “If they lied about something like that, could they also be lying about vaccines?”

    Calli did a good job of stating that it isn’t a huge leap from doubting drug companies to doubting vaccines made by drug companies. It’s an interesting conundrum. How do we rebuild the trust of the public? How can we get them to trust drug companies and vaccines? I agree with Orac and his previous article 100%. The medical community and scientists need to step up and put firmer guidelines and stipulations on the marketing engines within the pharmaceutical industries. Right now, the public perception is that money is running the show, and I firmly believe that science should be running the show.

  56. #56 Just My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008
  57. #57 franklin
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn,

    Please provide a link to a published source for your information.

    According to the State of Wisconsin (pdf), the first case in 2008, occurred in a 37 year old man with no documented immunization for measles.

    The patient lives with his wife and daughter. The patient and wife do not have known measles vaccination dates. The patient had no out of state travel. About 1 to 2 weeks prior to illness onset, he had work-related contact with a visitor from China who was ill at the time of the visit.

    The CDC has sequenced two isolates from Wisconsin and they are genotype H1, which is the endemic measles genotype in China.

  58. #58 ChrisC
    August 22, 2008

    Ah…another vicotry.

    A victory for idicoy over intelligence.

    A victory for irrationality over evidence.

    A victory for the smug, failed ideas of the few over the good will of the many.

    A victory for ignorance over knowledge.

    I suppose that it should have been expected. Mass vaccinations have done so much good in the world, prevented so many deaths, that it really was over due for someone coming in an stuffing the whole thing up.

  59. #59 ChrisC
    August 22, 2008

    Ah…another vicotry.

    A victory for idicoy over intelligence.

    A victory for irrationality over evidence.

    A victory for the smug, failed ideas of the few over the good will of the many.

    A victory for ignorance over knowledge.

    I suppose that it should have been expected. Mass vaccinations have done so much good in the world, prevented so many deaths, that it really was over due for someone coming in an stuffing the whole thing up.

    By the way Dawn, if you are going to attempt to make a point, please stop for a moment and think about how you are going to express it. For example:

    “Well Julian, was this before or after the mass “herd” was injected with Saulk’s polio vaccine? He infected tens of thousands with the crap – including himself and child.

    People are bound to make repeat mistakes. Vaccines and history are proof of that nonsense.”

    doesn’t actually make any sense… even in the context of you responding to Julian. People might take you a little more seriously if you… well… you know… approach the topic with a little thought and logical, and a bit less … well… nonsense.

  60. #60 ChrisC
    August 22, 2008

    Crap…triple post…my apologies everyone!

  61. #61 Undergraduate-gal
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn,

    In addition to Jay Gordon’s post: Measles, especially milder cases, is notoriously difficult to diagnose absent a blod test. Considering the size of these “outbreaks”, it doesnt take a lot of misdiagnoses to inflate the numbers significantly. The doc. will be more likely to diagnose you with measles if you’re unvaccinated or partially vaccinated. This from an official provax infomercial:

    In non-epidemic circumstances measles is difficult
    to diagnose accurately. Therefore, mild viral illnesses causing a rash may be labelled as measles.

    A lot of cases of mild poisoning involve a rash,

    I think you can guess why measles suddenly become easier to diagnose when its epidemic. The numbers supposedly decrease the statistical risk of clinical misdiagnosis.

    .

  62. #62 franklin
    August 22, 2008

    Undergraduate-gal,

    Please provide a citation for your source.

  63. #63 Undergraduate-gal
    August 22, 2008

    2cents: Thanks

    Franklin: I chose this particular source because it included the part about (non-)epidemics. But I can’t imagine the info would come as a surprise to you. There are dozens of similar references if you google measles and diagnosis. It should be even easier for seasoned pubmed. jockeys

    http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:4usMWvWpLwcJ:www.sehb.ie/search/publications/mmr/mmr_q1.pdf+Measles+difficult+to+diagnose&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk

  64. #64 Undergraduate-gal
    August 22, 2008

    Oops that was the general URL. Here’s teh specific reference:

    http://www.sehb.ie/search/publications/mmr/mmr_q1.pdf

  65. #65 your_homework
    August 22, 2008

    2 Cents:

    From your link there simply is no evidence to conclude what you concluded in your second post. Even concluding that the decision was unethical cannot be determined.

    AA:

    Groups of intelligent people have done just as–if not more–seemingly dangerous things that aren’t when Occam’s Razor is applied. We’ve risked sending people to the moon using the Razor–asserting the most likely explanation of data to draw conclusions that led to the Apollo missions. Your argument is therefore weak and unpersuasive.

  66. #66 Martin
    August 22, 2008

    To Jay (sorry,coming a bit late):

    “The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45. In a population of 350,000,000 Americans, you and any other scientist would have deemed this “statistically insignificant” if it suited your purposes.”

    Obviously, you misunderstand what statistically significant means:
    You observe a variable (number of measles) over some time and plot the distribution of this variable. You fit it with an appropriate curve (often a Bell curve). You determine a standard deviation. If you encounter another data point lying more than 3 (that’s not necessarily the factor, but a frequently used ne) times the standard deviation away, you consider the result significant. It does not matter how small the absolute number is. Otherwise I could say “Why bother about 9/11? 3000 death in a world population of 7 billion is not statistically significant.”

  67. #67 Dunc
    August 22, 2008

    since Andrew Wakefield published his shoddy, fraudulent, pseudoscientific, litigation-driven article

    You forgot “unethical”.

  68. #68 Dee
    August 22, 2008

    UGG, in the UK at least, suspected measles diagnoses are confirmed, usually with a combination of an antibody and PCR test for the virus. So it isn’t just a case of looking for a rash. The increase in cases we have seen over here, is, sadly, all too real.

    In the UK there has been an increase in cases – the possibility of an epidemic in Hackney, East London has resulted in a lot of publicity about the negative effects of the disease. Vaccine uptake rates have recovered, but at around 85% immunisation rate nationally over here, things are not looking great.

    The other thing about herd immunity is that it protects those who, for whatever reason are unable (not unwilling) to have the vaccination. So in addition to exercising a choice not to vaccinate your child, you are putting people at risk who don’t have any choice…

  69. #69 Kev
    August 22, 2008

    “The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45″

    And what about the measles outbreak of 2009, 2010, 2011 etc….unless you believe that these things happen in isolation of course?

    Who would you blame for the fact that vaccine preventable disease is once again hospitalising and killing children?

  70. #70 Orac
    August 22, 2008

    Orac, this post is truly not worthy of you. Seriously. The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45. In a population of 350,000,000 Americans, you and any other scientist would have deemed this “statistically insignificant” if it suited your purposes.

    With all due respect, Dr. Gordon, I decide what is and is not “worthy” of me on this blog. But thanks for your concern.

    Martin pretty much demolished your “rationale”; so I don’t see the need to add much. However, yes, a quadrupling in one year of the number of measles cases is definitely of major concern, especially when the outbreaks are occurring in regions with low vaccine uptake. Moreover, when taken together as a confluence of events including decreased vaccine uptake allowing isolated outbreaks to become more common and numerous, antivaccine propaganda being copiously pumped out by Jenny McCarthy (who’s gearing up for another round of antivaccine propaganda this month with her book), J.B. Handley, and like-minded conspiracy theorists, coupled with the clear concern among pediatricians who are having to refute pseudoscientific antivaccine nonsense being promulgated on the Internet, and I really do think that this is just the beginning. I’d really really love to be wrong about this. Public health and healthy children matter far more to me than a little egg on my face for being Chicken Little. But right now I don’t think I am wrong–unfortunately. The U.K., after all, led the way and showed us what can happen. Measles went from being eradicated 14 years ago to being endemic again, all because antivaccine paranoia led to a rapid drop in MMR vaccine uptake.

    I don’t want to see the U.S. go there too, especially when it is preventable.

    Dr. Gordon, as nice a guy as you are, you’re dead wrong on this issue. When I hear you say you are not “anti-vaccine,” I believe that you believe you are not. That does not, however, equate to my being persuaded that your actions do not support an antivaccine agenda. Indeed, you have repeated anti-vaccine talking points on multiple occasions, reaching a low point with your Cookie interview in which you parroted the infamous “formaldehyde” gambit. You elevate your personal observations over multiple large scientific studies.

    But, worst of all, you have chosen to align yourself with people who are most definitely anti-vaccine, including Jenny McCarthy and the whole “Green Our Vaccines” movement. You are, I’m afraid, one of the major enablers of the anti-vaccine movement. You’ve become the go-to guy whenever the media needs a physician–a pediatrician to the stars’ children, yet!–to express “skepticism” about vaccines. So, Dr. Gordon, you may believe yourself not to be “anti-vaccine,” but your actions give lots of aid and comfort to antivaccinationists. That, sir, is unworthy of you.

    Or, at least, so I would like to hope.

  71. #71 sophia8
    August 22, 2008

    Measles parties? Shouldn’t that be German measles parties? That’s what we had in the 50s. The dangers of rubella to unborn babies was well-publicised; there wasn’t a vaccine for rubella then, so the only way a woman could be sure of not getting it while she was pregnant was to get it as a child – hence the ‘party’ to deliberately infect girls.
    When I was seven or eight, I was the first kid on my street to get rubella; all the neighbours sent their young daughters round to my place to play with me as I lay in bed. (It wasn’t much of a party for me, as I recall.) Nobody ever threw ‘chickenpox parties’ or ‘ordinary measles parties’ or ‘mumps parties'; people would have thought you were bonkers if you actually wanted your kid to catch these diseases.

  72. #72 Mary Parsons
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn wrote:

    A Racine, Wisconsin (totally vaccinated) 5th grader started the outbreak! Don’t believe me?? Check with Tom Murray, Katie DeLong, and Lauren Leamanczyk about the story from TMJ4 News. They covered it and spoke with the child’s doctor.

    Well, it is tricky to find the story that you have in mind but the reporters that you name wrote this item: 23-Month-Old Child Has Measles.

    The infected child did not have the measles vaccine. Officials believe the missed vaccine was an oversight by the parents, not due to religious or ethical beliefs.

    All that I could track from your scant details about the 5th grader was that the last report mentioned he was a probable, not a confirmed, measles case. And, from the dates, unlike you, those reporters don’t give any indication that the 5th grader was the index case for the outbreak.

  73. #73 storkdok
    August 22, 2008

    I was afraid this was going to happen.

    I saw what measles can do first hand, first in medical school when I worked in Papua New Guinea which had large areas of people who were so isolated that they could not be vaccinated, then next in residency in SoCal in the immigrant population that was largely not vaccinated.

    Thank you, Orac, for putting the blame where it belongs.

  74. #74 Orac
    August 22, 2008

    By the way, Steve Novella thanks Jenny for the measles outbreak, too.

  75. #75 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    your_homework,
    I was just providing her with a link to an article about the Bayer/HIV scandal. That’s all. There’s no need to read anything else into it.

    My comments earlier are not meant to denigrate anything that doctors are doing. I was just bringing up a valid point about public perception of the medical community. As I said, they see the medical community right now as being run by money, when they should be seeing that it is run by science. I’m sure quite a few of you will agree with that assessment.

  76. #76 Militant Agnostic
    August 22, 2008

    I hink we need to thank Oprah and the other media idiots who are giving Jenny a forum to spew her dangerous nonsense. These enablers need to be held to account.

    It amazes (but does not surprise me) how the anti-vaxer’s twist and spin the evidence of increasing measles rates to suport their delusions.

    Under Jay Gordon’s understanding of statistics, in increase in mesles will becomne significant when a case turns up in his practice.

  77. #77 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    Actually, let me give you an analogy that I think you all would appreciate.

    Think of the anti-vaccine mentality as a disease (yes, I can actually see the grins on your faces). To understand the disease, we must first look at the cause, am I correct? Jenny McCarthy and Dr. Wakefield are not the cause; they are only a symptom. So, what is the cause?

    My belief is that the public distrusts the medical community (I include the pharmaceutical companies in that group because that is how many people perceive it) because of all the past scandals. Are Jenny and Dr. Wakefield adding fuel to the fire? Absolutely! But, as I said, they are a symptom of the disease. If they hadn’t been around, someone else would have done the same thing. I think that the medical community should take steps to rebuild the public’s trust. Orac and his Quackwatch friends have a good start, but there needs to be something else done. Because, the simple truth is that a parent is not going to vaccinate if they don’t trust their doctor.

  78. #78 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    2 cents, anti-vaccination goes back much farther than “Big Pharma” or the distrust of the same. It wouldn’t suprise me if a distrust the medical community is playing a role, but I imagine there are other causes as well.

  79. #79 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    An example: Sweden had a smallpox epidemic in 1873 due to an anti-vaccination movement: http://shm.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/369

    I don’t know precisely when “Big Pharma” was founded, but I think I can safely put it in the 20th century.

  80. #80 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/17754074.html

    You have to read the story carefully….”The 5th grader did test positive (even though fully vaccinated)”. Also, “Public officials are unaware of any links to the confirmed cases in Milwaukee and Waukesha counties, but are still investigating”. This story broke on 4/23/08. So, according to this report, officials are only aware of how one of the three outbreaks began if I am reading it correctly.

    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/17861384.html

    It’s too funny, if children have the measles and have not been vaccinated – they blame those children for the outbreak. Yet, if an outbreak occurs among the vaccinated, all that is ever stated is that officials are looking into it. They then conveniently find someone to blame or if they can’t locate an unvaccinated person they never mention that part of the story again…

  81. #81 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    You completely missed my point, Natalie. I’m talking about now and what doctors can do about the distrust. As to the Sweden outbreak;
    “While some resistance may have been on religious grounds, some reflected the uncertainty that had arisen about the effectiveness of vaccination when the protection proved to be less than lifelong.”

    This was because of distrust of the medical community.

  82. #82 monson
    August 22, 2008

    Would it be wrong for doctors to refuse to be family doctors for families that don’t vaccinate? I have heard of doctors using this threat to get patients to stop smoking.

  83. #83 SC
    August 22, 2008

    My comments earlier are not meant to denigrate anything that doctors are doing. I was just bringing up a valid point about public perception of the medical community. As I said, they see the medical community right now as being run by money, when they should be seeing that it is run by science. I’m sure quite a few of you will agree with that assessment.

    Well, I just got out my notes from the talk by Anne Schuchat (CDC) in the “Global Issues: Helping the Public Understand When Scientific Information is Valid” session at the 2008 AAAS meeting. She referred to a study on credibility among the US public, which found:

    high credibility: health professionals, university scientists
    medium credibility: environmental professionals, activists
    low credibility: government

    Unfortunately, I don’t have down what study she was drawing from (the next one she cited was by Peter Sandman, but I don’t think this one was), but it appears to put health professionals at the top of the credibility scale. Do you know of studies that show something different, or suggest that trust is on the decline? I don’t have access to the relevant journals at the moment, but I would be interested to hear about recent research into the public perception of the medical community.

  84. #84 Diane
    August 22, 2008

    Well, Dawn, I guess I’m glad that you are asking for your children to get the measles. I was thinking along the same lines for all you anti-vaxers, but I couldn’t bring myself to wish measles on anyone.

    And for people who think that breastfeeding and organic food and exercise is enough to ward off all those dread diseases, I ask them to walk through an old graveyard and count how many children died prior to the 20th century. These children had nothing but organic food, outdoor time, were breastfed as infants and they died YOUNG. Thank modern medicine/science/knowledge for giving children a chance for life.

  85. #85 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Natalie stated: “2 cents, anti-vaccination goes back much farther than “Big Pharma” or the distrust of the same. It wouldn’t suprise me if a distrust the medical community is playing a role, but I imagine there are other causes as well”.

    Yes, Natalie. It is called unrecognized damages due to vaccines. Many people are angry with the medical community for failing to accept that vaccines can harm more than 1 in a million. I am one of those people.

    I make it a point to look at babies/children every time I am out in public. I cannot believe how damaged these children are – in an alarming number too. Just take a look at their purple shadows around their eyes and the how many are suffering with inverted eyes. It is truly sickening. My doctor could not believe that my 17 mo. old has never had more than 1 brief overnight “slight cold” in his entire life. I stopped vaccinating him at 6 mo. due to his severe reactions (I refused some of the recommended ones too). Yet, according to his pediatrician his healthy state is news to her – her eyes popped out of her head and her jaw dropped to the floor when I told her this last week?! Well, I must be doing something right. I am no longer vaccinating him.

  86. #86 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    SC, thanks for the article. I’ll read up on it :)

    No, SC, unfortunately I don’t have anything peer reviewed. Most of my information is, indeed, just anecdotal. I’m an RN, so I get to hear a lot of what the patients are talking about and I’m also the one who has to try to talk them into the vaccinations. There really is a lot of distrust, and to average Joe on the street, they are unable to tell the difference between the medical community and the pharmaceutical community. I can do a little more research and see if I can come up with anything :)

  87. #87 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    You completely missed my point, Natalie. I’m talking about now and what doctors can do about the distrust. As to the Sweden outbreak;
    “While some resistance may have been on religious grounds, some reflected the uncertainty that had arisen about the effectiveness of vaccination when the protection proved to be less than lifelong.” This was because of distrust of the medical community.

    I didn’t miss your point, I just disagree with part of it. You’re right that there is an overall distrust of the medical community among some people, and it would behoove all of us alleviate that. I am saying that, in addition to that there is a distrust of vaccines in and of themselves, and it would behoove us to determine the roots of that distrust and attempt to alleviate it as well.

    I think your conclusion that distrust of a vaccine must indicate distrust of the medical community requires a huge assumption that isn’t supported by the text, although I can only access the abstract.

  88. #88 Phoenix Woman
    August 22, 2008

    …”children who had experienced measles, etc, “spiritually grew”: that weeks of being sick profoundly changed the child for the better.”

    So brain damage equals spiritual growth?

    Just wait until PZ Myers hears about this.

  89. #89 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    Natalie,
    Ah, well then please accept my apologies for getting defensive :)

    As I said, I’m an RN, so I have to hear a lot of the fears and concerns of parents. Yes, there is a lot of distrust toward me and the rest of the medical community, which then applies to vaccines.

  90. #90 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  91. #91 Phoenix Woman
    August 22, 2008

    As I said on another thread, these parents have a weird mix of fear and hope.

    They simply cannot accept that this is a condition that has no cure. They cannot. So they cling to the false hope that their children weren’t born with it, but that it was somehow created post-birth by “poison” of some sort, on the idea that a cure can be effected by “cleansing” their kids.

    In the meantime, by fighting vaccination and pushing ever-more-bizarre “therapies”, they are working to cause far more brain damage, if not outright death, than would have otherwise existed.

  92. #92 Karen
    August 22, 2008

    Homeschooler here! PLEASE do not think all homeschoolers are anti-vaccine. They are a (vocal) minority only!

    And, just because personal anecdotes prove SO much, Dawn, my eight year old has had every single vaccination recommended and has NEVER been to the doctor for anything other than well-child visits. He is NEVER sick. (My doctor attributes that to keeping him out of daycare, by the way.)

  93. #93 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “Well, I must be doing something right. I am no longer vaccinating him.”

    Would you take your child around and play with children who have measels? This would make for an interesting experiment. Why don’t you give it a try and let us know what happens.

  94. #94 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    Yes, Natalie. It is called unrecognized damages due to vaccines. Many people are angry with the medical community for failing to accept that vaccines can harm more than 1 in a million. I am one of those people.

    Huh. In that same Swedish smallpox outbreak that My 2 Cents and I were discussing, the low levels of smallpox vaccination caused an epidemic. Yet, after the epidemic those same Swedes started vaccinating in large numbers, and it was the last smallpox epidemic in Sweden. Why didn’t the supposed damages from vaccination cause rates of vaccination to fall again?

    I make it a point to look at babies/children every time I am out in public. I cannot believe how damaged these children are – in an alarming number too. Just take a look at their purple shadows around their eyes and the how many are suffering with inverted eyes.

    Looking at random kids you see outside is not research. Purple shadows or bags under the eyes can be a simple genetic difference in skin pigmentation – I inherited lines under my eyes from my parents. They’re quite common in my family.

    And what are “inverted eyes”? Is this an actual medical condition or just something you made up?

  95. #95 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Karen: That is great that your child is healthy. However, no developmental delays, sensory processing issues, vision/hearing problems, motor problems, attention problems, whatsoever? I mean, your child is fine after all of those vaccines? Your child is not on medication for anything?

    RJ: I am not worried about my child contracting measles. I won’t purposely expose him, but at the same time I don’t fear the disease.

    Do you know the Breast Cancer Foundation issued a list of the 10 biggest contributers/risk factors in Oct 2007 on MSN? What were they? Chemicals. All 10 of them. They were mainly found in food, drinking water (tap), health & beauty products, household cleaning agents, antibiotics, prescription drugs, etc. etc. etc. All chemicals. So, what type of effect do you think all of those vaccines with all of their chemicals will have on children/adults long-term? I guess only time will tell because it is an area that remains unstudied (purposely unstudied). Common sense tells me that you do the best that you can with the knowledge that you do have though.

  96. #96 Josh from Canada
    August 22, 2008

    I am also very much afraid of Chemicals found being relentlessly forced into our systems. Like Dihydrogen Monoxide, which rampant in our water supplies and crops! We must remove all chemicals from our food, water, medical, industrial and educational supplies! We *must* put Our Kids Safety First!

  97. #97 Orac
    August 22, 2008

    Do you know the Breast Cancer Foundation issued a list of the 10 biggest contributers/risk factors in Oct 2007 on MSN? What were they? Chemicals. All 10 of them.

    Biggest contributors/risk factors for what? Breast cancer? The biggest risk factors for breast cancer are not chemicals, but rather family history, nulliparity, early menarche and late menopause, etc. These have been known for decades. Consequently a citation to the exact source would be nice.

  98. #98 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn,

    Do you think it would be better to live in rural Africa or South America, hunt and gather you own food, far away from developed “chemical-infested” western society? Everything is organic there. Surely you and your family would be much better off…more healthy. Or, do you prefer to jump in your SUV, drive down the highway to the nearest Whole-Foods, buy the nice “organic” and “all-natural” items with the pretty labels on them that tell you how magically wonderful they will make you?

    Also, can you tell me of something…anything…that is not “chemicals”?

    BTW, do you take vitamins/supplements? Your kids? Are those “chemical”-free? What do you think that daily excessive dosages of iron, copper, selenium, etc, is ok? How about excessive levels of fat-soluble vitamins? Are they ok too?

    I still think you should let your kids play with others with diseases. Let their “natural” immune system take care of it….no problem! Maybe take a family trip out of the U.S. Go see the world! After all, western, industrialized “chemically-burdened” societies are living longer and more healthy than any others in the world, at any other time…if would be a shame to waste the possibility of a long, healthy life without seeing those living in “chemically-free, all natural, organic” land.

  99. #99 sophia8
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn: Presumably, you were vaccinated as a child? If so, why aren’t you autistic, or permanently ill?

  100. #100 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 22, 2008

    Here’s a comment from the Washington state outbreak” “We have pulled most of our staff from their routine work to assist with the outbreak response.

    So, the routine work of inspecting markets and restaurants for health hazards, educating staff of those businesses on how to prevent the hazards, the vector control and disease surveillance, and the rest of the things we rely on to keep us healthy gets set aside to contain this totally preventable problem. That’s a risk to EVERYONE, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

    Definitely three Huzzahs are due to Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, and the rest of the crowd. And I hope you all get food poisoning (staph or C. perfringins because of the spectacular symptoms and low risk of death) because your local health department has to pull people off their regular duties to cope with an outbreak.

  101. #101 Dan
    August 22, 2008

    Josh from Canada, good point dihydrogen monoxide is a highly toxic chemical that causes more death each year then any vaccines. Yet it is in most vaccines. This is the one chemical the Green the Vaccines crowd wants removed. People just do not realize how dangerous it is. What is worse in that unlike mercury it can be found in every vaccine. Perhaps this chemical is the cause for autism. Unfortunately, Josh, you forgot to provide Dawn with a good link so she can get herself educated about this highly toxic chemical. That Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division is a good place to start. Here is the link:

    http://www.dhmo.org/

  102. #102 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Natalie stated: “Huh. In that same Swedish smallpox outbreak that My 2 Cents and I were discussing, the low levels of smallpox vaccination caused an epidemic. Yet, after the epidemic those same Swedes started vaccinating in large numbers, and it was the last smallpox epidemic in Sweden. Why didn’t the supposed damages from vaccination cause rates of vaccination to fall again?”

    Actually Natalie, the smallpox vaccine is so scary that the members of Nurses’ Association in the U.S. have come to together and protested administration of the vaccine. The majority of nurses refuse to take it. Take a look at the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program and what type of damage the program will cover due to the smallpox vaccine. It is not just the vaccinated, but also the unvaccinated who are harmed by coming in contact with a VACCINATED person. How comforting.

    Yes, Natalie the evidence of damaged children is all around us. Purple shadows around the eyes are evidence of allergies or illness usually.

    Far too many babies these days have either one eye with nerve damage or both I am finding. Yes, it is a medical condition. I made it a point to review my 14 year old’s baby book after my nightmare last year involving myself/infant/vaccines and found that he was another victim. Eye nerve damage is an adverse reaction to the Hep B vaccine. My 14 year old’s eyes were fine up until 6 mo. old and the only new vaccine given was the Hep B. Unfortunately, I never made the connection because his Dad has a slight lazy eye and all of these years I figured it was genetic. However, after looking more closely at his baby pictures I was shocked to find that his eyes were perfect until 6 mo. old. If it was genetic he would have been born that way. He was recently diagnosed with a Visual Processing Disorder (the evidence was there all along with his school records/gross motor/fine motor problems). I also noted in his baby book that he suffered from a strange type of congestion around the same time he received his early vaccines. Funny, so did my infant. My teen also suffered from conjunctivitis with each round of vaccines too I now see in his book. Another adverse reaction to many vaccines. I showed the vaccine literature to his evaluator last year and he was shocked. Yes, vaccines can cause Visual Processing Disorders & eye nerve damage I was told – and those numbers are rising sharply too.

  103. #103 Prometheus
    August 22, 2008

    “The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45. In a population of 350,000,000 Americans, you and any other scientist would have deemed this “statistically insignificant” if it suited your purposes.

    Dr. Gordon apparently bases his understanding of statistics on his own unique “perspective” from 30 years of general pediatric practice.

    But how well does this “perspective” match with reality?

    Let’s run the numbers, shall we?

    Annual measles incidence (Dr. Gordon’s estimate) = 45
    Mean annual measles incidence 1997-2007 = 76
    Mean annual measles incidence 2003-2007 = 51
    Mean annual measles incidence 2005-2007 = 49

    2008 measles incidence (Dr. Gordon’s “estimate”) = 195
    2008 measles cases (as of 9 Aug) = 123

    2007 measles cases (total) = 43

    US Census estimate of US population (June 2008) = 299 million (let’s just round up to 300 million, OK?)

    The difference between Dr. Gordon’s “guesstimate” of the total 2008 measles cases and the mean annual incidence from 1997 – 2007 is statistically significant (p less than 0.0001). The statistical significance goes up if you use more recent mean annual measles incidence numbers. So much for Dr. Gordon’s “gut-level” interpretation of statistics.

    In fact, the number of measles cases had been declining in the past years, down from a recent peak (116) in 2001.

    To be fair, Dr. Gordon probably didn’t bother to think about the actual statistical significance of the increase in measles – he most likely meant that an additional 150 sick people out of a population of 300 million was less than a drop in the bucket. That’s true, as long as you or someone you care about isn’t one of those 150.

    From a public health perspective, however, even a small increase in measles cases is concerning, since there are growing numbers of children who aren’t vaccinated against measles (and who haven’t had the disease). Every additional case increases the chance that measles could get into a pocket of susceptible people and start a real epidemic.

    Even without the vaccine refusers, there are numbers of people who cannot take vaccines or who – as a result of immune deficiencies – have lost their immunity. In addition – and this is what really causes sleepless nights in the CDC – no vaccine (or other medical treatment) is 100% effective. Measles vaccine is very effective, but even if it were 95% effective, that would leave (if the US were 100% vaccinated) 15 million people who are not immune.

    It’s probably worse than that. Surveys of childhood vaccines from 1995 – 2006 show that only about 90 – 95% have had one or more MMR vaccination. If this can be extrapolated to the general poulation, that adds another 15 – 30 million susceptible people.

    In addition, most adults were last vaccinated in childhood and their immunity has waned. They may not get “full blown” measles, but they could make dandy carriers of the disease. Since they wouldn’t show all of the typical symptoms, they wouldn’t suspect that they were ill as they spread the virus to susceptible members of society.

    Once again, Dr. Gordon puts a great deal of faith in his gestalt of public health without actually taking the time to check the numbers or do the math. It’s what I’ve come to expect.

    Think about that the next time he gives advice about infectious diseases.

    Prometheus

  104. #104 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Prometheus stated: “Every additional case increases the chance that measles could get into a pocket of susceptible people and start a real epidemic”.

    What about the recently vaccinated individuals? They too pose a risk of shedding for up to 6 weeks. I don’t see doctors warning recently vaccinated persons to stay away from immune-compromised individuals, pregnant persons or infants. I don’t see you angry about that dangerous situation. Why? It just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Lack of informed consent is a HUGE part of this problem for the unvaccinated and vaccinated. Is it really fair to have your pregnant wife around a recently vaccinated person, or your newborn, or your cancer-stricken relative? Thanks to vaccines, the age group HAS shifted to adults/infants now being vulnerable.

  105. #105 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    I just wanted to make another point. Thanks to vaccines, new moms can no longer offer that “protection” to their newborn. With everyone vaccinated, including most mothers, that leaves a large number of infants vulnerable for the first year of their life.

  106. #106 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “What about the recently vaccinated individuals? They too pose a risk of shedding for up to 6 weeks. I don’t see doctors warning recently vaccinated persons to stay away from immune-compromised individuals, pregnant persons or infants.”

    Can you cite one example? Just one.Seems to me if this “issue” even existed, it wouldn’t be questioned. More people would have measles and the correlation with immunization would be clear.

    Maybe you could examine the word attenuated, as in attenuated vaccine. What does that word mean Dawn?

  107. #107 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “I just wanted to make another point. Thanks to vaccines, new moms can no longer offer that “protection” to their newborn. With everyone vaccinated, including most mothers, that leaves a large number of infants vulnerable for the first year of their life. ”

    And yet the numbers HAVE DROPPED AFTER VACCINATIONS WERE INTRODUCED. How can you ignore or deny that fact. Fewer cases, even with a much larger population.

  108. #108 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn said “What about the recently vaccinated individuals? They too pose a risk of shedding for up to 6 weeks. ”

    Evidence that this happens with the MMR please? That is a valid statement for the smallpox vaccine, but not for an intramuscular vaccine like the MMR.

    Please tell us exactly the real scientific literature that delineates the risks of the MMR versus measles. As a refresher during the last major outbreak of measles in the USA the risk of death was more than 1 in 500:
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/378565 …”We estimated that 259 measles deaths actually occurred; the reporting efficiencies were 64% for the NCHS and 71% for the NIP. Overall the death-to-case ratio was 2.54 and 2.83 deaths/1000 reported cases, using the NCHS and NIP data, respectively. Pneumonia was a complication among 67% of measles-related deaths in the NCHS data and 86% of deaths in the NIP data. Encephalitis was reported in 11% of deaths in both databases. Preexisting conditions related to immune deficiency were reported for 16% of deaths in the NCHS system and 14% in the NIP; the most common was human immunodeficiency virus infection. Overall, 90% of deaths reported to the NIP occurred in persons who had not been vaccinated against measles.”

    Plus there is the risk of severe neurological impact:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302 …”Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis. Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as Mental Retardation. We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to Mental Retardation.” (modified for clarity)

    I also found this interesting article for those who insist measles who affects UNhealthy children (an argument I hate since I do have a child with a severe genetic heart condition, somehow they think that their organic children are more deserving of life than my kid with a real genetic condition)… Since I am at my two URL limit I will mung the address (put www dot in front):
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11738762? …
    Vaccine. 2001 Dec 12;20(5-6):949-53.
    The frailty hypothesis revisited: mainly weak children die of measles
    Aaby P, Whittle H, Cisse B, Samb B, Jensen H, Simondon F.
    Projecto de Saúde de Bandim, Bissau, Guinea-Bissau.
    … “This reduction could not be related to introduction of immunization, treatment of measles with Vitamin A, or prophylactic use of antibiotics. Controlling for age, immunization, and season, the decline in post-measles mortality was similar to the fall in non-measles-related mortality between the two periods (mortality rate ratio=0.72 (0.64-0.80)). Since the mortality decline in survivors of measles was as large as the decline in mortality among uninfected children, reduction in acute measles mortality did not lead to accumulation of frail children. We doubt measles infection ever eliminated mainly weak children; it always killed a broad spectrum of children, most of whom were “fit to survive”. Hence, it seems unlikely that measles vaccination has contributed to the survival of more frail children.”

    Note to Dr. Jay: Should any person die from measles in the USA, which has happened in Japan, you and your friends will be directly responsible. You need to work on your statistics and basic epidemiology to figure out how to avoid in the USA what has happened in Japan and the UK.

  109. #109 Kev
    August 22, 2008

    People with dark circles under their eyes are vaccine damaged disease-ridden victims?

    Bloody hell Dawn, where do you get this stuff? How about some facts? Here’s one – you and your ilk are partially responsible for every hospitalisation and death that is caused by a vaccine preventable disease. If I had my way you’d be tried for treason against the human race.

  110. #110 Orac
    August 22, 2008

    I’m still waiting for Dawn to back up her claim that the “Breast Cancer Foundation” reported that the ten biggest risk factors for (presumably) breast cancer are chemicals.

  111. #111 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    Orac,

    You, me…we are all going to be waiting. Dawn is living in a delusional state. She’s got a view of the world, and that’s it. It is not subject to discussion or analysis…she’s right and the rest of the world is wrong. It’s like trying to rationalize with a schizophrenic that the voices in their head are not aliens trying to subvert the earth. Alas, we will have to deal with individuals like this. It’s just something we will have to accept. They exist.

  112. #112 My 2 Cents
    August 22, 2008

    “People with dark circles under their eyes are vaccine damaged disease-ridden victims?”

    Is that what’s wrong with me? I’m vaccine damaged? Well, shit!

    And I thought it was because I work f-ed up hours….

  113. #113 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    I’ve posted this evidence of shedding after the MMR three times now.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11858860?dopt=AbstractPlus

  114. #114 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    Far too many babies these days have either one eye with nerve damage or both I am finding. Yes, it is a medical condition.

    Well, whatever you think you’re takling about is not called inverted eyes. Granted, I suppose it could be an archaic term, but I rather doubt it.

    How are you qualified to make medical diagnoses of nerve damage? Obviously nerve damage is a medical condition, but how are you determining that these children you see on the street actually have nerve damage?

  115. #115 Natalie
    August 22, 2008

    Actually Natalie, the smallpox vaccine is so scary that the members of Nurses’ Association in the U.S. have come to together and protested administration of the vaccine. The majority of nurses refuse to take it.

    a) Please link to an actual statement by this association about the smallpox vaccine, or failing that a reliable news source covering this.

    b) The smallpox vaccine available today and the one available in the 19th century were not the same vaccine. Additionally, smallpox was actually endemic in the 19th century, so getting vaccinated had a much higher benefit. As there is no wild smallpox in the world anymore, the risk-benefit analysis is completely different.

    c) You didn’t address my point. If the vaccines cause so many problems, why did all of those vaccine refusing Swedes end up getting vaccinated? And why did they continue to get vaccinated up until (I presume) the disease was eradicated?

  116. #116 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “I’ve posted this evidence of shedding after the MMR three times now.”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11858860?dopt=AbstractPlus

    Great. Did you read the paper? Or just the abstract? Why, knowing that this is a specific, unique incident of a mutation that led to the attenuated virus becoming replication-competent, would this be an issue in your opinion? Because a 1 in 50 million or so event should be a cause for concern? I don’t see your point.

  117. #117 Interrobang
    August 22, 2008

    What the nutter is describing as “inverted eyes” is called “strabismus.” I’ve had it all my life. According to strabismus.org, “Many things and/or events can cause a strabismus. They include genetics, inappropriate development of the ‘fusion center’ of the brain, problems with the controlled center of the brain, injuries to muscles or nerves or other problems involving the muscles or nerves. Surprisingly, most cases of strabismus are not a result of a muscle problem, but are due to the control system — the brain.”

    In other words, it’s not caused by nerve damage to the eyes (surprise, surprise!) but by a mis-development of the brain. Its normal onset period is anywhere from birth to four years, so finding a kid developing strabismus at six months isn’t all that unusual. Any link with vaccines is therefore most plausibly explained by — surprise again! — confirmation bias: Expect to find a coincidence, find a coincidence.

    If antivaxxers didn’t lie, they’d have to shut up, and that ain’t happening.

  118. #118 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  119. #119 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  120. #120 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  121. #121 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  122. #122 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  123. #123 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  124. #124 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  125. #125 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  126. #126 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  127. #127 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  128. #128 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  129. #129 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  130. #130 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  131. #131 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  132. #132 Persily & Associates
    August 22, 2008

    Just my 2 cents, yes that is most certainly a factor. Anti-vaccination wingnuttery is almost always associated with a general distrust of the medical profession, or at least of the large corporations within it. There are elements of conspiracy theory as well, especially among the more strident of the anti-vaxxers. As Orac discussed in the article you mentioned (a brilliant one, IMHO), one of the more pernicious effects of such shameful misbehavior as a seeding trial is to further weaken the trust patients have in the industry, making them even more prone to believe nonsense.

  133. #133 StuV
    August 22, 2008

    AA:

    One case of measles detected in the throat of a vaccinated child!

    I am bowled over by your evidence and proof. I worship thee. Is there a way to un-vaccinate my child? AA has shown me the light.

  134. #134 D. C. Sessions
    August 22, 2008

    Also, can you tell me of something…anything…that is not “chemicals”?

    Sunshine. It is, however, a known cancer cause.

  135. #135 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    RJ – I forgot, we’ve outsmarted every other species and herd-culling virus on the planet. Viral evolution is not unique.

    AA

  136. #136 Jesse
    August 22, 2008

    RJ: I am not worried about my child contracting measles. I won’t purposely expose him, but at the same time I don’t fear the disease.

    Because you have the luxury of herd immunity from those of us who *are* fully vaccinated. Can you see the logical fallacy in your deluded thinking that you rely upon to keep your kid safe? You should be walking around thanking people for vaccinating their children, not trying to brag about how healthy your kid is.

  137. #137 D. C. Sessions
    August 22, 2008

    Far too many babies these days have either one eye with nerve damage or both I am finding. Yes, it is a medical condition. I made it a point to review my 14 year old’s baby book after my nightmare last year involving myself/infant/vaccines and found that he was another victim. Eye nerve damage is an adverse reaction to the Hep B vaccine.

    Hey, it’s not just the HepB — I found out a long time ago that parts of my visual field are totally blind. It’s just to the right of center on my right eye and just to left of center on my left eye.

  138. #138 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    StuV,

    The request was for just one. Besides, we are swabbing the throats of everyone that receives measles vaccine, right?

    I forgot, viral shedding is a myth, except when you have herpes – so that you may take antivirals for the rest of your life.

    AA

  139. #139 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    Jesse,

    It might interest you to know that when Hedrich first coined the phrase “herd immunity” in 1933, that he was observing measles patterns in children prior to the advent of the vaccine. The thesis he wrote described the cycle of the virus, and the naturally mounted immune response.

    The extrapolation to artificial (and waning) immunity is a bit abused. Besides, disease outbreaks of measles have occured in fully vaccinated populations of the herd…

    AA

  140. #140 D. C. Sessions
    August 22, 2008

    I just wanted to make another point. Thanks to vaccines, new moms can no longer offer that “protection” to their newborn. With everyone vaccinated, including most mothers, that leaves a large number of infants vulnerable for the first year of their life.

    Dawn, thank you for bringing that up. It is certainly valuable for infants to have prompt maternal immunity to the diseases that you are working to reintroduce to the USA.

    Towards that end, young women who are planning to become mothers should get measles boosters first.

  141. #141 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “I forgot, viral shedding is a myth, except when you have herpes – so that you may take antivirals for the rest of your life. ”

    What in the world are you talking about? Is there a point of relevance that I missed somewhere?

  142. #142 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    AA, that was a case study, which is an anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not data. Most people are not infectious after a vaccine.

  143. #143 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    HCN,

    It doesn’t matter. It is not 100%. it may be 99.999999%, but it is clearly not 100%, therefore, we should all freak out!

  144. #144 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    HCN,

    You are correct, thank you for reeling me in. I’m not aware of any evidence which supports your statement though. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    RJ,

    I’m talking about viral shedding, and its selective application.

    AA

  145. #145 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “I’m talking about viral shedding, and its selective application”

    That much is obvious. I’m missing the relevance.

    Perhaps you could finish this part for me:

    …its selective application in ________.

    Thanks.

  146. #146 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    RJ,

    “its selective application in ________.”

    the transmission of viral disease.

    AA

  147. #147 StuV
    August 22, 2008

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    And hence, my theory that all disease is caused by the Great Green Arkleseizure still stands.

    Science and logic, ur doin it rong.

  148. #148 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 22, 2008

    Here’s a comment from the Washington state outbreak” “We have pulled most of our staff from their routine work to assist with the outbreak response.

    So, the routine work of inspecting markets and restaurants for health hazards, educating staff of those businesses on how to prevent the hazards, the vector control and disease surveillance, and the rest of the things we rely on to keep us healthy gets set aside to contain this totally preventable problem. That’s a risk to EVERYONE, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

    Definitely three Huzzahs are due to Wakefield, Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, David Kirby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, and the rest of the crowd. And I hope you all get food poisoning (staph or C. perfringins because of the spectacular symptoms and low risk of death) because your local health department has to pull people off their regular duties to cope with an outbreak.

  149. #149 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    OK, thank you.

    I was confused because I wouldn’t have imagined anyone would find it relevant. The paper describes a specific instance. It’s purpose is to illustrate a biological phenomenon, not suggest that vaccines are susceptible to conversion and the subsequent infection of others in the community. It’s not an issue. It’s like citing a case where a person was burnt to death in a car fire because they were wearing their seat belts and couldn’t get out (therefore, seat belts shouldn’t be used), except the seat belt scenario would be far, far, far more likely.

    People’s homes have been destroyed by falling debris from space. Should we erect massive protective domes to prevent that possibility from happening again? Hey, it can happen! There’s an instance where it has occurred, therefore, it’s time to freak out!

    Context, my friend, context.

  150. #150 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    StuV,

    Evidently the scientific definition of susceptible is isolated to antibody titers… where’s the logic in that?

    “Vaccine-available disease” is not restricted to UNvaccinated people.

    AA

  151. #151 StuV
    August 22, 2008

    AA:

    Please, either make a point or stop embarrassing yourself. It is becoming painful to watch.

  152. #152 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “Vaccine-available disease” is not restricted to UNvaccinated people.”

    Transmission to another hasn’t been demonstrated. Just the concept in a specific instance.

    Should we freak out yet?

  153. #153 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    RJ,

    I am unclear on how you have deduced that what occured in that case study is a “phenomenon”. Every time a virus replicates there is a chance for error.

    You do make an excellent point regarding context, and I will submit that there is a lot of information that is taken out of context in the anti-vaccine camp.

    I’m sorry if you are under the impression I am freaking out, or promoting others to – that is not the intent.

    AA

  154. #154 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    StuV,

    You’re free to stop watching and certainly free to contain your infantile responses. As if “science and logic” houses some sort of profoundity that elevates you.

    AA

  155. #155 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    No prob AA,

    I think it is fascinating because viruses, like living organisms, are subject to mutation (even though viruses are not living). It is possible that an attenuated virus could, feasibly, regain it’s ability to replicate or generate a particular pathology…it’s feasible…the mechanism exists. But for it to be a cause of concern…no. It is not relevant or worth worrying about.

    This is one reason why recombinant vaccines area big plus (like HepB).

  156. #156 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 22, 2008

    @measles Free: What’s the deal with Switzerland and Israel? Can we do anything about foreigners entering the US or simply ensure we are all vaccinated?

    A couple of USA outbreaks have been because an unvaccinated AMERICAN caught the disease while outside the country. In one incident, the stupid American gits were already sick, and had been requested to stay where they were until they were no longer spreading virus … and they decided to come home anyway.

    Requiring vaccinations of all who leave or enter the USA (like we did with smallpox for a while) would help.

    @MARK

    Dr.Jay – What vaccination for pertussis does is prevent the lateral spread of pertussis from child to child in a school setting, and from there to the infant siblings who die miserable deaths from it, or suffer permanent brain damage.

    As the private school in NoCal discovered, pertussis spreads readily among unvaccinated children. Instead of shots, they had the school shut down for several days and had to be on prophylactic antibiotics for a while … how is this better?
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/09/BAN310JQVL.DTL

    Adults, although they can be asymptomatic carriers, are poor pertussis spreaders if they are asymptomatic. They aren’t coughing up great gobs of infected sputum, and their hygiene is better than a 3rd grader’s. Unless the child is spending large amounts of time with the asymptomatic infected adult, they are unlikely to become infected.

  157. #157 ozzy
    August 22, 2008

    “Far too many babies these days have either one eye with nerve damage or both I am finding.”

    You’re just a regular medical Sherlock Holmes. So now the incidence of the use of prescription eyeware has increased due to vaccines. Dawn, do you think that the fact that my right foot is bigger than my left foot is because I was vaccinated? We could be on to something here.

  158. #158 RJ
    August 22, 2008

    “I am unclear on how you have deduced that what occured in that case study is a “phenomenon”.”

    Main Entry: phe·nom·e·non
    Pronunciation: \fi-ˈnä-mə-ˌnän, -nən\
    Function: noun

    plural phenomena : an observable fact or event

  159. #159 StuV
    August 22, 2008

    AA: so it is safe to assume you don’t have a point?

  160. #160 Mary Parsons
    August 22, 2008

    How very amusing to be on the receiving end to read carefully from Dawn (aug 22, 10:55). In the first link she gives:

    In Racine, a local doctor tested a 5th grade boy for measles and it came back positive. Officially, this is considered a probable case. Racine officials rushed a sample to the state health lab where they’re working on confirming the measles

    And – still no indication that this child was the index case – which was Dawn’s original claim (aug 21,11:53pm).

    A Racine, Wisconsin (totally vaccinated) 5th grader started the outbreak! Don’t believe me??

    As for AA’s boiler-plate discussion of herd immunity, fortunately enough, SGU has dealt with this: The cut and paste Gish gallop.

    Yet again, as these threads show and as many people mention, there needs to be a central collection of all these points so people aren’t reinventing the wheel each time.

  161. #161 notmercury
    August 22, 2008

    Ozzy: Dawn, do you think that the fact that my right foot is bigger than my left foot is because I was vaccinated?

    Probably, but if you have wings on your feet even I would suspect mercury.

  162. #162 Feynmaniac
    August 22, 2008

    It takes alot of balls for a former Playboy bunny to not only go up against the wisdom of people who actually went to medical school about a health matter, but to actually have a public campaign against it. And by doing so actually making children sick and die. I think the saddest part of this is not what she has done, but that she has succeeded.

  163. #163 The Christian Cynic
    August 22, 2008

    Probably, but if you have wings on your feet even I would suspect mercury.

    A brilliant pun! I tip my hat to you.

  164. #164 Kelli Ann Davis
    August 22, 2008

    “So they cling to the false hope that their children weren’t born with it, but that it was somehow created post-birth by “poison” of some sort…”

    So Phoenix Woman, can you explain to me what the skull and crossbones is doing on the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if thimerosal is not a poison??

    (I’ve cut and paste the information from the MSDS below. Unfortunately, the skull and crossbones located in the upper right-hand corner didn’t transfer below but it’s there.)

    Material Safety Data Sheet
    Revision: 12/23/2002
    Hazard information is provided for compliance with both the UK Chemicals
    (Hazard Information and Packaging) (CHIP) Regulations and the US Hazard
    Communication Standard (HCS)
    IDENTIFICATION OF THE
    SUBSTANCE/PREPARATION
    AND COMPANY
    PRODUCT NAME:
    Thimerosal (Sodium-Ethyl-Mercurithio-Salicylate)
    PRODUCT CODE:
    22215
    EEC NUMBER:
    None
    SUPPLIER: Emergency Contact:
    USB Corporation, 26111 Miles Road, Cleveland, Ohio 44128 Phone: (216) 765-5000 Chemtrec (800) 424-9300
    Outside USA & Canada 703 527 3887
    COMPOSITION/
    HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS HAZARD CAS NO.
    %WT
    TLV CHIP R & S Phrases
    Thimerosal 54-64-8 ~99% — R:23/24/25 Toxic by
    inhalation, in contact with skin
    and if swallowed
    R:36/37/38 Irritating to eyes,
    respiratory system and skin
    S:22 Do not breath dust
    S:36/37/39 Wear suitable
    protective clothing, gloves and
    eye/face protection
    HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION CHIP
    Toxic
    HCS
    Toxic
    FIRST-AID MEASURES EYES: Flush with water for 15 minutes. Seek medical advice if irritation persists.
    SKIN: Flush with water, then wash thoroughly with soap and water. Remove contaminated clothing and
    wash before reuse. Seek medical attention if irritation persists.
    INHALATION: Remove the victim from exposure and move to fresh air. If breathing is difficult, give
    oxygen. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. Keep victim quiet and warm. Seek immediate
    medical attention.
    INGESTION: Drink water and seek immediate medical attention. Avoid alcoholic beverages. Never give
    anything by mouth to an unconscious person.
    FIRE-FIGHTING INFORMATION Use media suitable to extinguish the supporting or surrounding fire. Wear NIOSH (or equivalent) approved self
    contained breathing apparatus. For small fires only: use carbon dioxide, dry powder or foam. Possible emission
    of organo-mercury vapors.
    Flash Point = No data available.
    ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES Wear appropriate personal protective equipment and clothing including lab coat, safety goggles, gloves and
    NIOSH-approved respirator. Collect in a manner that does not create dust and place in a suitable waste
    container. Avoid contact of material with skin or eyes. Use adequate ventilation.
    HANDLING AND STORAGE Wear appropriate personal protective equipment and clothing including lab coat, safety goggles, gloves and
    NIOSH-approved respirator. Avoid contact of material with skin or eyes. Use adequate ventilation. Store
    ambient away from light.
    PERSONAL PROTECTION Wear appropriate personal protective equipment and clothing including lab coat, safety goggles, gloves and
    NIOSH-approved respirator. A qualified industrial hygienist should evaluate the need for respiratory protection.
    Use respiratory protection approved by NIOSH (or equivalent) and appropriate to the hazard. Avoid contact of
    material with skin or eyes. Mechanical ventilation or local exhaust as needed to control exposure to dust,
    vapors or mists. Access to a safety shower and eye-wash.
    PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL
    PROPERTIES
    Appearance: Light cream colored crystalline powder; characteristic odor
    Boiling Point: No data available Vapor Pressure: No data available
    Vapor Density: No data available Solubility (Water): Soluble
    Specific Gravity: 0.45 gr/ml Percent Volatile: No data available
    Evaporation Rate: No data available Chemical formula: C9-H9-Hg-O2-S A Na
    STABILITY AND REACTIVITY Product is stable. Avoid light. Hazardous decomposition products include nitrogen oxides, carbon oxides, sulfur
    dioxide, organo-mercury compounds and vapors. Hazardous polymerization will not occur.
    TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE:
    EYES: May cause severe irritation to eyes.
    SKIN: May cause irritation to skin.
    INHALATION: Breathing dust or vapors may cause the symptoms described under ingestion.
    INGESTION: Chronic ingestion or excessive dosage may cause numbness, tingling of hands, feet, lips,
    ataxia, painful joints, constriction of visual fields, impaired hearing, emotional disturbances, spastic
    movements, incontinence, groaning, shouting, dizziness, lacrimation, hypersalivation, nausea, vomiting,
    diarrhea and constipation.
    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:
    Reproductive effects, irritation, tumorigenic, mutation and toxicity data listed in RTECS under OV8400000.
    Oral Rat LD50=75 mg/kg (1966). Toxic effects included ataxia, nausea, vomiting, metabolic acidosis
    and fibrosis.
    Reproductive: Effects on embryo or fetus included fetal death(1975).
    Fertility – abortion(1975).
    Tumorigenic data: Neoplastic by RTECS criteria. Tumorigenic effects – uterine tumors.
    Definition(s): RTECS = Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances.
    ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION No information available
    DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS Dispose of material in accordance with applicable local, state, and federal regulations.
    TRANSPORTATION INFORMATION US DOT / IATA: Mercury compound, solid, n.o.s. (Thimerosal), class 6.1, UN 2025, PG III.
    REGULATORY INFORMATION RCRA – Hazardous Wastes: U151.
    OSHA – Air Contaminant.
    SARA 302 – Extremely Hazardous Chemical.
    SARA 313 – Toxic Chemical.
    EPA TSCA Section 8(b) – Chemical Inventory.
    Exposure Limits – ACGIH TLV-TWA: 0.1 mg(Hg)/m3 (skin).
    OSHA PEL: 8H TWA 0.01 mg(Hg)/m3 (skin).
    NIOSH: REL to Mercury, Aryl and Inorganic-air: CL 0.1 mg/m3 (Sk).
    California Proposition

  165. #165 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    Mary Parsons,

    Have you even read the thesis to which I am referring? It covered the period from 1901 – 1928, and addressed natural immune response to measles exposure. I merely stated that the term has been extrapolated to vaccine-induced immunity (secondary failure anyone?), and rather abused. The current herd immunity thresholds are based on mathematical models that in no way reflect the original context of the term. Medical science is equally capable of distorting context.

    RJ,

    Thanks for the correction, next time do it in red.

    StuV,

    You’re baiting sucks.

    AA

  166. #166 J.L.
    August 22, 2008

    ooh ooh can I handle that one Kelli? Maybe because most everything at a high enough dose is harmful? Take a look at this scaaaary MSDS of a common chemical that is not only flammable and poisonous, but approved for swimming pools!!!

    http://www.cheappoolproducts.com/images/docs/BW%201%20inch%20Tabs%20C106%20-%20C124.pdf

    highlights:
    SECTION 3 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
    EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
    POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS
    INHALATION: IRRITATING TO NOSE, MOUTH, THROAT AND LUNGS, BURNS TO RESPIRATORY TRACT.
    EYE CONTACT: SEVERE IRRITATION AND/OR BURNS.
    SKIN CONTACT: SEVERE IRRITATION AND/OR BURNS.
    INGESTION: IRRITATION OR BURNS CAN OCCUR TO THE GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT.
    CHRONIC: MAY CAUSE IMPAIRMENT OF LUNG FUNCTION AND PERMANENT LUNG
    DAMAGE.
    HMIS HAZARD CODE: HEALTH: 3 FLAMMABILITY: 0 REACTIVITY: 2

    INGESTION: IMMEDIATELY DRINK LARGE QUANTITIES OF WATER. DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. CALL A PHYSICIAN AT ONCE. DO NOT GIVE ANYTHING BY MOUTH IF THE PERSON IS UNCONSCIOUS OR IF HAVING CONVULSIONS. (eek…scaaaary!!!)

    Yet it’s completely safe when used properly…why you might ask? Because it’s used at a completely nontoxic dilution. Oh, it’s known commonly as pool chlorine tablets.

  167. #167 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 22, 2008

    StuV,

    that would be *your*

    RJ,

    red pen please.

    AA

  168. #168 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    DC Sessions stated: “Dawn, thank you for bringing that up. It is certainly valuable for infants to have prompt maternal immunity to the diseases that you are working to reintroduce to the USA”.

    Exactly, so why the hell are we vaccinating in the first place if maternal immunity does not grant the newborn immunity AT ALL??

    Towards that end, young women who are planning to become mothers should get measles boosters first.

    WHY? What is the point? If the woman contracts the disease naturally, she OFFERS the immunity to her newborn for as long as 15 months!! Am I missing something??

  169. #169 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    Kelli Ann Davis said “So Phoenix Woman, can you explain to me what the skull and crossbones is doing on the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) if thimerosal is not a poison??”

    And why is that an issue with the MMR? The MMR has been around since 1971 and has never contained thimerosal.

    Even for the other vaccines that are now thimerosal free, that is an incredibly stupid argument. Botox contains a very dangerous toxin, yet there are those who are quite willing to have it injected near their eyes!

    Now, please, show us the real scientific evidence that the MMR is worse than measles (about 1 to 5 out of 4000 measles cases die, and 1 in 5000 end up with permanent brain damage, see my posts above at 2:30 for the papers).

  170. #170 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    I really feel sorry for many of you on this board. You place so much faith in Big Pharma, that it is truly sad. Despite all of the overwhelming evidence, you still have this “blind faith”. I actually sat down and read the book of Revelation today. I haven’t touched a Bible in probably 15 years, but it was quite shocking to read that a lot has already come to pass and much more is to come. In fact, “pharma” is mentioned 3x in this book as being evil. It was truly enlightening as to how many have been truly mislead by this “Vaccine Program” – to include many church goers. It was also spoken that 1/3 of this world will die of “plagues”. Our leading researchers are already estimating that roughly up to 50 million will die from “pandemic” illnesses that are preventable by way of vaccines. I guess that they are grossly underestimating that figure. I’m sorry, but I just do not have that much faith in man when dollar signs are hanging in the balance. Especially when the 1918 pandemic was triggered by vaccinated military persons to begin with. The individuals who died were ones living in impoverished conditions on top of that!!

    Please do not get me wrong, I believe that medicine was given to us for a reason (a gift), but at the same time, profit has become a priority for certain individuals.

    However, justice will definitely be served in the end. For people to try to “play down” the fact the even one child died for the sake of the “Vaccine Program” is disgusting and incomprehensible. Many will scoff at this post. Some will think about it. Just do your homework. In the end, justice will prevail. Just ask yourself this one question, how can you possibly sacrifice one life for another? It is called Socialism. Anyone that is o.k. with that probably does not have a problem with Obama being President either. Just be careful of what you wish for.

  171. #171 anonimouse
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn would rather have thousands die from preventable diseases than have one child maybe die from a vaccine.

    Oh well, as long as it’s not her kids she doesn’t care. At least be honest and admit that point.

  172. #172 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn whined “However, justice will definitely be served in the end. For people to try to “play down” the fact the even one child died for the sake of the “Vaccine Program” is disgusting and incomprehensible.”

    And yet you do not care about the two young boys who died from measles in the UK, nor for the more than dozen babies who still die from pertussis each year in the USA (and don’t whine because you do not know the vaccine status of the children, their parents or of anyone they were in contact with!).

    Kindly show us the documentation on the “MMR deaths”, add that to the real scientific evidence you have yet to produce that the MMR vaccine (which has been in the USA since 1971 and has never contained thimerosal) is more dangerous than measles (death more than 1 in 1000, permanent brain damage more than 1 in 5000), mumps and rubella. Not a news report, not an anecdote and definitely not a book you want us to buy! Real, actual factual scientific evidence… like those listed in this document:
    http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf

  173. #173 J.L.
    August 22, 2008

    I really feel sorry for many trolls on this board. You place so much faith in Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy, that it is truly sad. Despite all of the overwhelming evidence, you still have this “blind faith”. I actually sat down and read a peer-reviewed scientific article today. I haven’t touched a reputable journal in probably .001 years, but it was quite shocking to read that a lot has already come to pass and much more is to come. In fact, “disease” is mentioned 3x in this book as being a bad thing. It was truly enlightening as to how many have been truly mislead by this “Anti-Vaccine Program” – to include many church goers. It was also spoken that 1/3 of this world could die of “Vaccine-preventable plagues”. Our leading researchers are already estimating that roughly up to 50 million could die from “vaccine-preventable” illnesses that are preventable by way of vaccines(obvious troll is obvious?). I guess that they are grossly underestimating that figure. I’m sorry, but I just do not have that much faith in man when their egos are hanging in the balance. Especially when the 2008 measles outbreaks in the U.K. and U.S. was triggered by unvaccinated uneducated persons to begin with. The individuals who died were ones living in non-impoverished conditions on top of that!!

    Please do not get me wrong, I believe that medicine was given to us for a reason (a gift), but at the same time, profit has become a priority for certain anti-vax frauds.

    However, reason will definitely be served in the end. For people to try to “play down” the fact the even one child died for the sake of the “Anti-Vaccine Program” is disgusting and incomprehensible. Many will scoff at this post. Some will think about it. Just do your homework. In the end, reason will prevail. Just ask yourself this one question, how can you possibly sacrifice one life for your misconception that vaccines do more harm than good? It is called unethical. Anyone that is o.k. with that probably does not have a problem with themselves being President either. Just be careful of what you wish for.

  174. #174 alison
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn said What is the point? If the woman contracts the disease naturally, she OFFERS the immunity to her newborn for as long as 15 months!! Am I missing something??

    uummm – maybe that woman would be dead, rather than pregnant?

  175. #175 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Anonimouse: Are you kidding me? Did you not read my previous post? I am not O.K. with ANY child dying. If Big Pharma is going to LIE about the number of actual deaths related to vaccines – this is APPALLING and totally INHUMANE. One child – that’s it! Is truly disgusting. You said “thousands” of deaths could be prevented by way of vaccines?? Really, as far as I can see throughout history, there are only 2 things that have changed due to vaccines – age groups afflicated by disease and the number of cases of disease have dropped – the number of DEATHS HAVE NOT. Again, you are a mislead fool to think otherwise. Do your homework and don’t expect others to do it for you.

  176. #176 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    J.L. Stated: “Especially when the 2008 measles outbreaks in the U.K. and U.S. was triggered by unvaccinated uneducated persons to begin with.

    PROOF PLEASE J.L?? You are so FULL of @#$%!!

    Please do not get me wrong, I believe that medicine was given to us for a reason (a gift), but at the same time, profit has become a priority for certain anti-vax frauds. REALLY, FOR WHO EXACTLY? THE PEOPLE TRYING TO HEAL THEIR UNRECOGNIZED VACCINE DAMAGED CHILDREN THAT NORMALLY COSTS $500,000 per year for treatment?? Um, o.k. Don’t twist my previous words you jerk.

    Wow, you are funny J.L. Definitely not a sensitive human being or even a dad/mom for that matter, but kind of funny. Or at least YOU think you are. That is all that counts though? Right? Just what YOU think you are as a person?? It is called SOCIALISM!!

  177. #177 Phoenix Woman
    August 22, 2008

    Wow, Kelli can cut-and-paste gobs of text, most of which she doesn’t understand! Yippieee!

    JL, somehow I have the feeling that she’d accuse Paracelsus of being a tool of Big Pharma, so quoting him on how the dose alone makes a thing not poison won’t work with her. But thanks!

    Should I even bother mentioning to Kelli the various studies that showed that ethyl mercury (aka thimerosal or thiomersal, etc.) is a) readily excreted from the body (no chelation needed, thanks) and b) is gone from the body in less than a week in any event (as opposed to the industrial pollutant methyl mercury, which can stay in the body for months)?

    Oh, what the hell — I’ll post the World Health Organization statement on this fact:

    July 2006
    Statement on thiomersal

    The Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety concludes that there is no evidence of toxicity in infants, children or adults exposed to thiomersal (containing ethyl mercury) in vaccines.

    In 1999, concerns were raised in the United States of America about exposure to mercury in vaccines. This was based on the realization that the cumulative amount of mercury in the infant immunization schedule potentially exceeded the recommended threshold set by the United States government for methyl mercury. However, thiomersal, the preservative in some vaccines, contains ethyl mercury not methyl mercury. The Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety (GACVS) first assessed this issue at a special meeting in August 2000. The Committee review has been ongoing since then.

    Expert consultation and data presented to the GACVS indicate that the pharmacokinetic profile of ethyl mercury is substantially different from that of methyl mercury. The half-life of ethyl mercury is short (less than one week) compared to methyl mercury (1.5 months) making exposure to ethyl mercury in blood comparatively brief. Further, ethyl mercury is actively excreted via the gut unlike methyl mercury that accumulates in the body.

    Four independently conducted epidemiological studies investigating associations and frequency of neurobehavioural disorders in relation to vaccination with thiomersal-containing vaccines have been completed in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Denmark. The findings from these studies do not challenge the safety of existing thiomersal-containing vaccines in infants. Recently two studies were published alleging reduction of neurodevelopmental disorders in the United States of America following discontinuation of thiomersal-containing vaccines in the national immunization programme. The Committee found the conclusions made by the authors unconvincing due to the study design, and the data source.

    The GACVS reviewed available information on an ongoing thiomersal pharmacokinetic study in macaque monkeys and assessed the validity of animal models in studying associations between thiomersal and neurobehavioural disorders in humans. The Committee was informed of ongoing human neurobehavioural studies and thiomersal exposure in the United States of America and Italy and of a study on the suitability of thiomersal-free vaccines in multidose vial presentations, assessed by retained sterility for up to 30 days.

    On the basis of the foregoing, the GACVS concluded that the most recent pharmacokinetic and developmental studies do not support concerns over the safety of thiomersal (ethyl mercury) in vaccines. The Committee concluded, and advises accordingly, that there is no reason on grounds of safety to change current immunization practices with thiomersal-containing vaccines, as the risks are unproven. However, data for well-nourished neonates born at term cannot necessarily be extrapolated to preterm or malnourished infants. Studies on the latter group would be difficult to conduct, but the GACVS encourages further research.

    The GACVS will continue to review the evidence, including any epidemiological data, that might emerge from on-going studies.

    It won’t do Kelli any good, but it might be useful to a lurker wondering what all the fuss is about. In the meantime, enjoy my killfile, Kelli!

  178. #178 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    Dawn whined ” I am not O.K. with ANY child dying. If Big Pharma is going to LIE about the number of actual deaths related to vaccines – this is APPALLING and totally INHUMANE.”

    But you want us to back to the numbers of deaths we experienced in the 1950s! Check out the chart:
    Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_______86______ 1____1950___319124____468
    2001______116______ 1____1951___530118____683
    2002_______44______ 0____1952___683077____618
    2003_______56______ 1____1953___449146____462
    2004_______37______ NA___1954___682720____518
    2005_______66______ NA___1955___555156____345
    2006_______55______ NA___1956___611936____530
    Total_____460______3 or more___3831277___3624

    (numbers from http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/appdx-full-g.pdf )

    Now those hundreds of deaths per year in the 1950s was when the population in the USA was half of what it is now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States). So if we stopped vaccinating, and measles comes back to the same level, you can expect those case and death numbers to double in a few years.

    So, since you want to stop all vaccination, you really want us to let hundreds of thousands of people to get sick, for hundreds to suffer permanent neurological damage and for even more hundreds to die. Because that is what is going to happen. It is happening in Japan, the UK and elsewhere. Why do you not think it is going to happen here?

    And you can bet, when the first American child dies of measles we will all be here putting the blame exactly where it belongs: Jenny McCarthy, Andrew Wakefield, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dan Olmsted, David Kirby, JB Handley, and others like you. And the blame will also go double to Dr. Jay, because he should know better.

  179. #179 ozzy
    August 22, 2008

    “Probably, but if you have wings on your feet even I would suspect mercury.”

    Best comment of the whole thread!

  180. #180 HCN
    August 22, 2008

    Phoenix Woman said “It won’t do Kelli any good, but it might be useful to a lurker wondering what all the fuss is about. In the meantime, enjoy my killfile, Kelli!”

    Well it was doubly stupid of Kelli to bring up thimerosal on blog posting relating to the return of measles. The MMR has never contained thimerosal.

  181. #181 Baltimore Bert
    August 22, 2008

    Phoenix Woman,

    Can you have the GACVS explain why removing mercury cures autism if mercury is not the cause? I could use a good laugh.

  182. #182 ozzy
    August 22, 2008

    HCN, don’t you know that those numbers have been altered. Dawn has the proof!

  183. #183 J.L.
    August 22, 2008

    Oh Dawn, you’re a lulzy troll, you couldn’t be any more obvious if you were copying internet memes IN CAPS LOCK, WHICH WE ALL KNOW MAKES YOU MORE CORRECT ON THE INTERNET RAAAAAAARGH IM SHOUTING~!!!!!!@!#@$!@#$!@#!

    fun measles outbreak fact #1: 2 outbreaks, 2 pockets of unvaccinated kids (I didn’t look at the U.K. stats, but I’m sure you’re google button isn’t broke right?)

    http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20080821/measles-outbreaks-worry-cdc

    fun anti-vax profit margin fact #2: IV (intravenous) Chelation is where the chelating agent is fed into the body intravenously. There are many practitioners in alternative medicine utilising this methodology. A course of treatment costs between US$2000 – US$4000. There are at least 8000 people in the US currently undergoing chelation therapy, at an average of 40 (wow!) times per year. You look up the cost of a dose of MMR and get back to me. Who is financially abusing whom on the basis of Jenny McCarthy’s expert opinion?

    and Dawn, lest you accuse me further of being insensitive, I’m very concerned about this issue to the point where I’ve realized that well-informed, evidence based posts seem not to matter to people that are mislead by the likes of jenny freaking mccarthy. Sadly, some people are not to be reasoned with (more than I had ever imagined) and the battles are not going to be won on this thread, which makes your trolling, and my posts, that much more inconsequential. What else can I do but highlight, and in my darkest sense of humor laugh at, the absurdity that is your “argument”? The science behind autism has apparently passed beyond what can be reported to the masses by CNN, MSNBC and FOX lolNEWS, and is instead being reported by…again…Jenny freaking McCarthy. So I apologize if I have not treated your posts with the reverence that you think you deserve, but I honestly feel your narcissism is not worth it.

    from a lurker to a troll,
    XOXO
    -J.L.

  184. #184 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    I truly feel sorry for you J.L. From the sounds of it you don’t have any children yet, so you cannot possibly imagine the debate between the vaccinated/unvaccinated populations yet. So, please steer clear of the parental debate from here on out.

  185. #185 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    In fact, this is A FURTHER POINT – if anyone does not have a child yet – stay out of this debate please. It is again pro-vaccine moms/dads against anti-vaccine mom/dads. That is IT! If you don’t have a child to be sacrificed – stay out of it. Period. You have no room to talk and I really don’t care to hear your BS either. Please. Be considerate of the families who HAVE sacrificed their young for the “Vaccine Program”.

  186. #186 D. C. Sessions
    August 22, 2008

    WHY? What is the point? If the woman contracts the disease naturally, she OFFERS the immunity to her newborn for as long as 15 months!! Am I missing something??

    I wouldn’t say “missing;” I’m sure you know and are just doing the usual sales schtick.

    For those who don’t see the fast one you’re pulling: maternal immunity is transient and only offers meaningful benefits to the child if the mother has recently had an immune challenge. In other words, if the disease is endemic.

    Thus, you’re proposing to go back to those wonderful days of yore when measles had a prevalence of pretty close to 100%, all so that kids would have some partial protection against the worst of it for a few months (and it’s not 15, since gut permeability doesn’t last that long.)

  187. #187 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    You don’t have children D.C. Sessions do you? Stay out of this debate then please.

  188. #188 Gray Falcon
    August 22, 2008

    Here’s a bit of history, easily confirmed by most sources. The Hawaiian people live on one of the most isolated island chains in the world. Before they first met explorers, they had no immunity to measles, having never encountered it. The disease nearly (but did not) drove them to extinction.

    An extreme case, true, but this should give you an idea of what’s at stake here.

  189. #189 Dawn
    August 22, 2008

    Please Gray Falcon – you OBVIOUSLY do not have any children to sacrifice either for the “Vaccine Program” so please stay out of this debate too.

  190. #190 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Just to add, don’t give us the “You don’t have children” line, Dawn. This concerns not just your children, but everyone and their children. See my last comment for a drastic example.

  191. #191 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Likw I said Gray Falcon, you have NO room to talk if you have no children. My two children, brother, and I have ALL been harmed by vaccines AND I have a niece who died from her 2 mo. vaccines. So, don’t you dare to try play it up like it’s “no big deal”. If you do not have a child involved in this matter – stay out of it.

  192. #192 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    ozzy said “HCN, don’t you know that those numbers have been altered. Dawn has the proof!”

    Where?

  193. #193 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn, do you have any proof to your claims? Emotional yelling carries no weight here, only hard evidence. You may have correlation, but that is not the same as causation. Consider the old tale of the correlation between the average preacher’s salary and the cost of rum. Just because something happens shortly after something else does not make them connected. You need solid evidence here… which you have not provided.

  194. #194 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Well Gray Falcon, I guess that you don’t have any children either to speak of. So, please be QUIET about the subject. After all, you are asking parents to sacrifice their children for the sake of the “program” when you don’t even have any children yourself!! Isn’t that selfish and inhumane??

  195. #195 storkdok
    August 23, 2008

    “I really feel sorry for many trolls on this board…”

    JL, you are killing me! That is the funniest thing I’ve read in days!

  196. #196 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    “Selfish and inhumane” is caring solely about yourself, not worrying about society in general. I’m not asking for parents to make a sacrifice of any kind, only to understand acceptable risks, to protect their children’s health and possibly save their lives. Also, I’ve read Revelations multiple times, there’s not a single reference to “pharma”, but there is something about people who rewrite Scripture to their own ends.

    I’m not going to be quiet on the subject, it concerns me, it concerns everyone. Let me explain my point in terms you (or at least any lurker) can understand. You’ve just been accused of a terrible crime you didn’t commit, and may not have even occurred. Would you be happy if the defendant demanded that forensic evidence that clears your name be struck from the record because the scientist “doesn’t have a stake in this”?

  197. #197 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Correction to last comment: “defendant” should be “prosecution”. A little tired.

  198. #198 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Like I said earlier Gray Falcon, if you have no children to sacrifice, then please keep quiet because this debate really does not concern you.

  199. #199 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Let me try again. Try this: Prove to me that you’re not really an alien, out to eliminate the most dangerous species on our planet so your kind can move in. If you can’t prove you’re human, I have a Bikkurium ray, and I’m not afraid to use it.

  200. #200 Beverly Shillbillies
    August 23, 2008

    Orac, this post is truly not worthy of you. Seriously. The measles outbreak of 2008 will probably be comprised of an extra 150 cases over the usual annual 45. In a population of 350,000,000 Americans, you and any other scientist would have deemed this “statistically insignificant” if it suited your purposes.

    Seriously. Let’s put this as simply as possible for dok-ter gawr-don.

    A. The population of the U.S. is estimated to be about 300 million, not 350 million, but hey what’s 15% overstatement among friends, right?

    B. “Statistical significance” refers to the likelihood that a given result did not occur by chance. It does not indicate importance, magnitude, or relevance.

    As an aside, a la autismstreet/weblog

    When outbreaks (small or large) of vaccine-preventable diseases occur, why not assign a name the media can get behind for media coverage – just like the National Weather Service’s National Hurricane Center does?

    It could be much easier for media consumers to understand references to the same, serious, and connected events (especially if the frequency increases in the future), when disccusing something hypothetically like:

    “Measles Outbreak – Jenny” or “Pertussis Outbreak – Jim”

    Perhaps the media will refer to the Measles outbreak of 2008 as “Measles Outbreak – Jay”

  201. #201 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Actually Gray Falcon: Revelation 9:21 talks about the “magic arts” which in Greek refers to pharmakon, which comes from the English “pharmacy”. It is referenced 3x in this book alone as being evil and “idoltry/aka money worshiping” and that the perpretrators will pay for their crimes against humanity to include DEATH. I do believe that drugs have began as a good thing, but have later turned to evil/greed.

  202. #202 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    The phrase “magic arts” refers to curses and poisons, not pharmaceuticals. You just made up a new definition because you liked it better. And since you still don’t understand the concept of burden of proof (which is what my silly comment was about), and clearly do not bother reading my comments, I am no longer addressing you, except to present you with the not-very-prestigious John Best Jr. Award, given to whoever manages to do more to undermine anti-vaccination with their words of support that any number of critics. Goodbye.

  203. #203 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    Also, an error in one of Dawn’s comments. “Pharmakon” does not come from the English “pharmacy”, as the book of Revelations was written centuries before modern English. It can mean “remedy” or “poison”, in context, it probably means the second.

  204. #204 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    No Gray Falcon I did not make it up. It is actually referenced in the NIV version. I am sorry that you were silly in your accusations.

  205. #205 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    I guess the reason Dawn refuses to answer my questions about the relative safety of the MMR versus measles is because I do have children.

    And one of those children is disabled. He has had seizures, which required him to be kept away from other children as an infant during a pertussis epidemic because he did not get the DPT, but on the DT vaccine. Then he had another Grand Mal seizure while dehydrated because of a gastrointestinal disease which may have been a rotavirus (which is now vaccine preventable), which required a trip to the hospital by ambulance. And he also has a severe genetic heart condition (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction) which puts him first in line for the influenza vaccine each autumn.

    I have a child who could die if he had had measles (and him having chicken pox was no picnic, but neither was it for his infant baby sister).

    Dawn has a perfect Catch-22: She won’t deal with people without children (though as I remember from usenet D.C. Sessions does have children, she should be adults by now), and she won’t deal with people who have children with disabilities who can be seriously harmed by the diseases, like these children:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece …”Joe, who was discharged from hospital at the end of August, is unlikely to regain the full use of his left leg and has partial paralysis of his tongue and throat.

    “Matthew, who was not discharged from hospital until December 21, is more severely disabled. His optic nerves were permanently scarred by the virus and he is now registered blind.

    “He is also virtually confined to a wheelchair and has had to drop out of his mainstream school. Karen said: “Before he had measles, he could go out, he could play football, he could do what he wanted. …

    “Naomi Pop, just 14 months old, was among the victims. Her mother, Maria, 20, was not unduly worried when Naomi contracted measles just four weeks before she was due to have the triple jab. She said: “I thought to myself, ‘Measles, so what?’ I mean, how bad could that be?”

    “Within a few days Naomi had developed acute pneumonia. It took a year for her to die. She suffered several infections and progressive brain damage and finally died on March 14, 2001.

    “Other parents have yet to learn whether their children have suffered long-term damage from measles. Laurie Laird’s daughter Madeline contracted the virus when she was five months old. She recovered but at 20 months is still barely speaking.”

    Remember, Dawn, just fifty years ago hundreds of children died from measles each year, with several more becoming permanently disabled. Why do you want those kind of tragedies to returen?

  206. #206 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    The book of Revelation also discusses the fact that you should leave well enough alone – evil alone. I guess if people are truly thinking that they are “saving the world” by their vaccine program, LEAVE THEM BE. However, if they are committing crimes against humanity by way of death (which every vaccine is capable of), they will be persecuted. So everyone, I hope that you truly believe what you have instilled upon you is in fact, the total truth and not fabricated. It is totally upon your shoulders to seek the truth. I am just one ticked off Mom out to set a point.

  207. #207 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Oh Please HCN: I’m not really in the mood to deal with your BS. Please don’t reference off-shore cases when the public has no way of checking them out.

    HCN, you also need to try to locate a medical text book from the 50’s because apparently the definition of disease was different back then. Good luck trying to find one though because they have been “confiscated”.

  208. #208 Clay
    August 23, 2008

    Dangit, Dawn, when will you stop sacrificing children?

  209. #209 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Hcn stated: ” guess the reason Dawn refuses to answer my questions about the relative safety of the MMR versus measles is because I do have children.

    And one of those children is disabled. He has had seizures, which required him to be kept away from other children as an infant during a pertussis epidemic because he did not get the DPT, but on the DT vaccine. Then he had another Grand Mal seizure while dehydrated because of a gastrointestinal disease which may have been a rotavirus (which is now vaccine preventable), which required a trip to the hospital by ambulance. And he also has a severe genetic heart condition (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction) which puts him first in line for the influenza vaccine each autumn.

    I have a child who could die if he had had measles (and him having chicken pox was no picnic, but neither was it for his infant baby sister).”

    Wow, HCN, you have that much faith that you truly don’t believe that it was vaccine induced. How courageous of you. I don’t have that much faith in anyone. Sorry. All of the “situations” that you have stated with your own child have been vaccine-induced according to other parents. Again, I’m so sorry that you have so much faith in Big Pharma.

  210. #210 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    I dunno. Maybe I am repeating myself, but unless you have an immediate FAMILY member that will be affected by vaccinating/not vaccinating, then please SHUT UP about the subject. Obviously it does not apply to you and you should not provide your input. My family was adversly affected by vaccines and I feel that it is totally rude to provide input when you do no even have children!!

  211. #211 Kev
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn – my middle child is autistic. You’re an ignorant idiot spouting total crap.

    I’d also like to suggest that whilst I can understand whilst you want to shut people up when you have no counter to their arguments, telling people to shut up on someone else’s website is the height of rudeness.

  212. #212 How many kid's David Kirby gots?
    August 23, 2008

    HEY DAWN, HOW MANY KIDS DO DAVID KIRBY HAS? R U GONNA BAR HIM FROM THE DEEBATE 2?

  213. #213 Orac
    August 23, 2008

    In fact, this is A FURTHER POINT – if anyone does not have a child yet – stay out of this debate please. It is again pro-vaccine moms/dads against anti-vaccine mom/dads.

    Regular readers know that I don’t often use such terms, but sometimes only one word will do: That’s just a load of steaming, stinking, fly-covered bullshit, Dawn. Vaccination and herd immunity affect us all. I reject utterly your attempt to claim that we don’t all have a stake in keeping infectious disease at bay.

    In fact, I go as far as to say: If you don’t have children, make it a point to tell Dawn where to get off with her stupid attitude towards you. I would also point out that David Kirby doesn’t have any children. By your logic, he should be utterly excluded from the discussion. Perhaps you should go over to his Huffington Post blog and tell him to butt out.

  214. #214 Orac
    August 23, 2008

    You don’t have children D.C. Sessions do you? Stay out of this debate then please.

    Once again: You’re full of shit. And if you’re going to be telling people without children that they can’t participate in the discussion, then please, do be consistent and tell us what you think of David Kirby. The day I see you condemning David Kirby for taking part in the vaccine discussion and telling him he should just butt out and shut up because he doesn’t have children is the day I might take your stance for anything other than very obviously it is: A transparent excuse to try to exclude someone who doesn’t buy into your vaccine fearmongering.

  215. #215 beebeeo
    August 23, 2008

    I would argue to the contrary that parents with autistic children should stay out of the debate as they cannot be objective about the fact vaccines have been shown to be much safer than actually getting the disease they protect from. As they have their subjective experience that is based on a temporal coincidence they should stop arguing about the safety of vaccines. There you have it Dawn. My argument is just as valid as yours.

  216. #216 Mary Parsons
    August 23, 2008

    AA Aug 22 9:31 pm said:

    Have you even read the thesis to which I am referring? It covered the period from 1901 – 1928, and addressed natural immune response to measles exposure. I merely stated that the term has been extrapolated to vaccine-induced immunity (secondary failure anyone?), and rather abused..

    Yes – and might I suggest, it seems as if in considerably more detail than you did, and that is why I included the SGU link for which I’m not seeing any rebuttal from you…And, as for your latter point, so what? There are papers calling for a rationalisation of the use of the phrase with appropriate nuance: Herd immunity and herd effect: new insights and definitions. If that is your only objection, oddly enough, knowledgeable scientists and researchers are way ahead of you.

    Paul Fine wrote one of the most readable and detailed discussions of the history, theory and practice of herd immunity.

  217. #217 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn spewed “Oh Please HCN: I’m not really in the mood to deal with your BS. Please don’t reference off-shore cases when the public has no way of checking them out.”

    I actually provided references. I have included papers, articles and data from reliable sources. Like the whole list of papers in http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf ,which include studies from all over this planet. While you have provided a whole lot of nothing.

    I bet you don’t like my “BS” because it proves you are a person who would rather see children become permenantly disabled and die in the numbers they did in the 1950s. It does not matter what the definitions were in the medical books, dead is still dead… and measles killed kids by the hundreds each year of the 1950s.

    Just prove that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella with real verifiable evidence.

  218. #218 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    You don’t have children D.C. Sessions do you? Stay out of this debate then please.

    I love the smell of desperation in the Dawn.

    First we get the fascinating Revelation that “Pharma” is cited multiple times in the Apocalypse of St. John. Now we have Dawn frantically trying to ban interested parties from Orac’s blog who don’t meet her inclusion standards.

    Does that also mean shutting up Orac, Dawn? I’m sure you’d love to. However, despite the renowned wisdom embodied in the fruitful womb I’m afraid that free speech wins out and Dawn won’t be able to disenfranchise everyone who isn’t the mother of at least one under-ten autistic child.

    Which might or might not rule me out anyway, since Dawn is flailing about blindly. Here’s a clue, dearie: I’ve been posting to Usenet for more than 15 years. No secrets about my family status. Before going all argumentum ad hominem the halfway-prudent troll at least does a modicum of due diligence.

  219. #219 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 23, 2008

    Mary Parsons,

    You may suggest anything you like, doesn’t make it true. Why do I need to rebut the SGU piece? There was only a single paragraph that discussed the extrapolation of this term quoting from a previous debate elsewhere in cyberspace, and with it… epidemiolgy. And?

    It is STILL an extrapolation of the term, and protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available – which is absurd.

    AA

  220. #220 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    ozzy said “HCN, don’t you know that those numbers have been altered. Dawn has the proof!”

    Where?

    HCN, old friend, you know the answer to that one.

    However I do believe that the story today is that she found it in her family Bible.

  221. #221 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    though as I remember from usenet D.C. Sessions does have children, she should be adults by now

    Thanks for remembering, and yes (for some value of “adult”) they are. The youngest is getting her HPV series this fall.

  222. #222 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “Especially when the 1918 pandemic was triggered by vaccinated military persons to begin with. The individuals who died were ones living in impoverished conditions on top of that!!”

    Among the dead, and dead from the Spanish Flu, from the 1918 pandemic were:
    * Phoebe Hearst, mother of William Randolph Hearst, († April 13, 1919) (you know, the totally impoverished Hearst family that built San Simeon)
    * Yakov Sverdlov, Bolshevik party leader and official of pre-USSR Russia († March 16, 1919)
    * Mark Sykes, British politician and diplomat († February 16, 1919)
    * Max Weber, German political economist and sociologist († June 14, 1920)
    * Prince Erik, Duke of Västmanland (Erik Gustav Ludvig Albert Bernadotte), Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västmanland († September 20, 1918) (obviously impoverished!)
    * Franz Karl Salvator (1893-1918), son of Archduchess Marie Valerie of Austria and Archduke Franz Salvator, grandson of Empress Elisabeth of Bavaria and Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria, died unmarried and childless. (more totally impoverished royalty)
    * Louis Botha, first Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, († August 27, 1919)[28] (politicians are well-known to be impoverished)

  223. #223 Gray Falcon
    August 23, 2008

    A bit off topic, but after reading Revelations again, and noting how similar “Babylon” was to the more decadent elements of Roman culture, I’m betting “pharmakos” actually means “narcotics.”

    Oh, and thanks for the list, Tsu Dho Nimh. I should also add that measles and similar diseases pretty much killed off the first royal family of Hawai’i (I don’t live there, but I did get to visit.). Not exactly impoverished people, either.

  224. #224 The Christian Cynic
    August 23, 2008

    I covered the “pharma” in Revelations thing in another comment, but I have to laugh at this gem from Dawn:

    I actually sat down and read the book of Revelation today. I haven’t touched a Bible in probably 15 years, but it was quite shocking to read that a lot has already come to pass and much more is to come. In fact, “pharma” is mentioned 3x in this book as being evil.

    So you expect us to believe that you haven’t touched a Bible in 15 years, but you either a) have a Greek New Testament and can read it in the original Greek or (the more likely option, but not by much) b) you have an interlinear Bible (Hebrew & Greek texts/English translation of choice) on hand? Forgive me for being skeptical.

  225. #225 The Christian Cynic
    August 23, 2008

    Gray Falcon, pharmakeus here probably has the connotation of sorcery, so “narcotics” would be accurate insofar as the drugs (potions, what-have-you) would be used in occult practices (which is why pharmakeus is always translated in the NT as “sorcery,” “witchcraft,” “magic arts,” or something similar).

  226. #226 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “J.L. Stated: “Especially when the 2008 measles outbreaks in the U.K. and U.S. was triggered by unvaccinated uneducated persons to begin with. PROOF PLEASE J.L?? You are so FULL of @#$%!!

    The 2008 Tucson AZ outbreak began when an unvaccinated Swiss tourist became ill with measles after her arrival.

    The 2008 San Diego, Ca outbreak began when an unvaccinated boy went to Switzerland with his family and contracted measles there. The child set off a chain reaction that has infected two siblings, one of whom was a fellow charter student, and at least one classmate. The 7-year-old’s parents took the youngster to the Children’s Clinic of La Jolla, on La Jolla Boulevard in Bird Rock, on Jan. 25. The child may have coughed and sneezed in the office, potentially infecting four other patients. Those four patients returned to the clinic between Feb. 5 and 8, possibly spreading the virus to 60 other children.

    The 2008 Wisconsin outbreak may have begun with a visitor from China … the first two cases reported contact with that person,buyt thye had already left the country.

    The 2008 Washington state outbreak appears to have begun at a large church conference that had international and multi-state attendees.

  227. #227 Badger3k
    August 23, 2008

    First off, I have no kids of my own, just 3 neices (one less than 6 months old) and 8 nephews, and I teach high school kids, but I guess I can’t talk since I have “none of my own”. Yeah, I should have no concern for kids because I am not a biological father. Nice sentiment there, and exposes Dawns real concern – only her own kids, and nobody else’s, despite her protestations.

    That said, I too find it interesting that Dawn seems to think that Revelations is something we should be concerned with. Why should the writings of a (possibly drugged out) ancient writer, probably writing about a Roman emperor but there are competing hypotheses, have any relevance today? About the only thing I can think of is that Dawn, like many of the Rapture Ready crowd, see disease and multiple deaths as a sign of their coming salvation and the punishment of everybody who they do not like. This may not be the case, but the attitude seems to be the same, a pathological hatred of others that overrides common compassion and humanity.

    Dawn should be disgusted by herself, but she won’t be. Any bets she tells me to shut up? If you do, Dawn, please answer the question on whether Childless David Kirby should shut up as well?

  228. #228 badger3k
    August 23, 2008

    Sorry for the double post – I got a submission error, please submit again message twice. luckily I didn’t go for it the third time.

  229. #229 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says: “If you don’t have a child to be sacrificed – stay out of it. Period. You have no room to talk and I really don’t care to hear your BS either.

    Dawn … my parents volunteered me for the Salk polio vaccine trials, knowing full well that it could backfire and give me polio. When you look at all those children walking around the malls, while you are scanning them for signs of “vaccine damage” that only you can see, please notice that they ARE WALKING! They are not on crutches, with leg braces like three children in my grade school were. They are WALKING through the mall, not lying in an iron lung like one of my older sister’s classmates was.

    If I could reach through the computer screen and bitch-slap you, I would. It’s damned fools like you, Jenny McCarthy and “see no disease, must not be any danger” idiots like Jay Gordon who are setting a lot of families up for totally preventable disasters.

  230. #230 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn says:

    HCN, you also need to try to locate a medical text book from the 50’s because apparently the definition of disease was different back then. Good luck trying to find one though because they have been “confiscated”.

    Uh … confiscated from where? I have many medical books on my shelves, starting with half of a 2-volume set from the 1700s, one from right after Jenner discovered the smallpox vaccination, Meakins’ “Practice of Medicine” from 1944, and “Manson’s Tropical Diseases” from 1954 to name a few. No one has come by to confiscate them from me.

    If you want old medical books, just search Google Books. I have found marvelous books from the 1500s through the 1920s, scanned from the collections of medical libraries and private individuals all over the world. You really should read some of them, especially the ones with the death rates from diseases from diptheria, measles, whooping cough and the other vaccine-preventable diseases.

  231. #231 Prometheus
    August 23, 2008

    Boy, I’d love to tell Dawn about the interesting findings that have been made with the newly reconstituted 1918 Influenza virus, but I think that she’d just argue that the studies were all “faked” (like the Apollo moon landings, don’t you know).

    Although it looks like the H5N1 influenza (“bird flu”) won’t become the next pandemic influenza (although it might, if it ever gets the right polymerase), it is inevitable that one will eventually happen.

    If the current “Green our Vaccines” and “Too Many, Too Soon” movements haven’t dissipated by then, I forsee a Great Winnowing of anti-vaccinationists. And their children.

    People who are curious should look up the recent discoveries about the 1918 Influenza and also look up the epidemiologic studies of its victims. It’s fascinating reading, ‘though it might keep you up at night.

    The 1918 influenza killed at least 50 million people in less than two years – at a time when the world population was about 1.5 billion. It circled the globe, coming back to some places (England, for example) three times – a record for influenza that lasts to this day. An estimated 500 million people were infected by this influenza virus, with more than 2.5% of those infected dying. Pandemics before and after the 1918 influenza had death rates of around 0.1%.

    It did all this at a time when fast ocean liners took up to a week to travel between Europe and North America and global travel was limited to the ultra-rich (and soldiers).

    If another influenza virus mutates to be like the 1918 strain, it will be around the world before we even know it’s coming. Vaccination will have to be done quickly to be of any use to people – I suspect that the “Green our Vaccines” crowd will still be protesting that the vaccine needs “further testing” when they drop dead in the streets.

    Prometheus

  232. #232 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Tsu Dho Nimh said “If you want old medical books, just search Google Books. I have found marvelous books from the 1500s through the 1920s, scanned from the collections of medical libraries and private individuals all over the world.”

    One good place to start is at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/ , since the history of medicine is a fascinating subject. I have also seen old medical texts at the Library Foundation’s semi-annual book sales.

    I have probably read more on the history of disease and medicine than Dawn. From “Plagues and Peoples” by McNeill, “The Great Influenza” by John Barry, “Vaccine” by Arthur Allen, “The Cutter Incident” and “Vaccinated” by Paul Offit, “The Ghost Map” by Steven Johnson, “Vaccine” by Arthur Allen, others and I just finished “Panama Fever” by Matthew Parker and will soon start “Mosquitoes, Malaria and Man” by Gordon Harrison.

    I sincerely suspect that reading whole books is difficult for Dawn. She has bounced around with cut and pastes from various anti-vax sites, sometimes without understanding they did not say what she thought they said (this is most likely where she got the 1950s medical book idea, I doubt she has ever seen one). This is acutely illustrated with her telling us to not use PubMed, since she has no clue that it is just an index.

  233. #233 D. C. Sessions
    August 23, 2008

    People who are curious should look up the recent discoveries about the 1918 Influenza and also look up the epidemiologic studies of its victims.

    Especially the “who.”

    For those who don’t know, the 1918 pandemic strain primarily killed by cytokine storm. The old and otherwise less-healthy actually had a lower case mortality rate, since the robust hair-trigger immune systems of the young and healthy were what over-reacted and filled their lungs with fluids (much as with hantavirus.)

    Puts a different light on the alties who are so smug that their “boosted immune systems” will save them from the illnesses that afflict lesser mortals.

  234. #234 alyric
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn may be a credulous fool, what with her strabismus and other odd notions. Kelli Ann Davis is just your garden variety anti -vaxxer, purveyor of every falsehood they’ve got and as culpable as hell in this current debacle. Don’t tell me when she comes out with the lies and misrepresentations that she isn’t aware that they are lies and misrepresentations. A thorougly nasty conscienceless piece of work.

  235. #235 Mary Parsons
    August 23, 2008

    AA Aug 23 11:23am:

    There was only a single paragraph that discussed the extrapolation of this term quoting from a previous debate elsewhere in cyberspace, and with it… epidemiolgy. And?
    It is STILL an extrapolation of the term, and protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available – which is absurd.

    You introduced herd immunity yet it seems as if you merely dropped in a phrase that you don’t understand but had somehow found persuasive elsewhere in a similar exchange of views. Nonetheless, you might consider reading the other references that I gave, they are both accessible and informative. Both of them explain the currently preferred terminology and provide guidance on how various terms were or should be used. It seems that you have read neither of them or you would not consider the scientists and researchers discuss herd immunity, herd effect etc. in an unnuanced way over-extrapolated way. Nor would you see anything as overly-simple or unsophisticated as your characterisation.

    You might be particularly interested in Table 4 (pg 282) of the Fine paper; it discusses the implications of different assumptions for theoretical estimates of the herd immunity threshold. There are many other interesting observations in both papers. E.g., Fine, pg 283 discusses smallpox.

    Whether or not continued reliance upon population-wide vaccination programs might ultimately have been sufficient to eliminate smallpox from the more densely populated nations of Africa and Asia is now a moot point. If the 10 susceptibles per km2 threshold is a guide, then 98 percent vaccination coverage would have been necessary for Bangladesh, and such coverages were impracticable. However, it was recognized by 1970 that variola virus could be eliminated from populations more effectively by a policy of active case detection, contact tracing, and the breaking of individual chains of transmission by quarantine and ring vaccination than by relying entirely upon herd immunity from mass vaccination programs (69). In effect, the focus of prevention activity shifted from the population back to the individual. The success of this policy is now a matter of record (67). [Emphasis added.]

    Quite plainly, the eradication of smallpox took more than herd immunity: it is knowledgeable researchers and scientists who came up with that plan and expert local public health systems that implemented it.

    On the topic of malaria, that is an obvious example of a multi-pronged attack where public health interventions rely on considerably more than vaccination (e.g., impregnated bed nets). So, it does seem like an over-simplification of the matter for you to argue that herd immunity “protrays the human race as if vaccine induced/waning immunity to disease is all that is available”.

    Thoe references that I previously gave are useful to anyone who genuinely wants to understand this topic and how the interpretation of herd immunity and effect has changed over time.

  236. #236 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 23, 2008

    Mary – However, it was recognized by 1970 that variola virus could be eliminated from populations more effectively by a policy of active case detection, contact tracing, and the breaking of individual chains of transmission by quarantine and ring vaccination than by relying entirely upon herd immunity from mass vaccination programs

    That is feasible for diseases that are fairly rare, providedthe populaiton isn’t vrey mobile. I studied epidemiology in the late 1960s, and the shift had already happened. At that time the strategy was to vaccinate the heck out of people – especially in densely populated areas – until you have broken up a geographically even incidence into areas that are disease-free with scattered pockets of the disease. Then you focus on working from the edges of the pockets towards the centers, vaccinating inwards.

    Unfortunately, all it takes is for one person incubating the disease to hop a flight out of the ring and into somewhere else. That was not a problem when smallpox was shoved into the depths of Bangladesh and Ethiopia. Measles is now endemic in Great Britain, and the air traffic between here and there is high.

    I got caught up in a vaccination ring in Mexico: a local pre-school had a couple of cases of measles, and the public health department sent nurses into the neighborhood with coolers full of vaccines, tracing and vaccinating the pre-schoolers. They also required proof ofvaccinaiton ot enter school, public or private.

  237. #237 Mojo
    August 24, 2008

    Sorry to be a bit late to the party here, but I’ve remembered a prominent sufferer from “inverted eyes”:

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election2001/images/0,9350,449562,00.html

  238. #238 anonymous antivaccinationist
    August 24, 2008

    Mary,

    I do thank you for your insight, and perhaps our exchange started out a bit snarky and should not have? I did not use the term, someone else did. I didn’t “merely drop a line I heard”, my research into this term dates to before the John Hopkins thesis – when it applied to animals, cattle specifically.

    My singular point, is that like everything else, the term has evolved. Perhaps my simplification of this issue was not directed at your use of it, but to those that abuse it and its connection to vaccines. Hopefully you are able to concede that this does occur.

    aa

  239. #239 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    We could go round and round in this debate. I think we can all agree on one point though. That every vaccine has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, vaccines can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of the “herd”. It is called Socialism – which is exactly why we have a Constitution (for the moment anyways). If you feel comfortable having our government agencies strip you of your parental rights, that is your choice – not mine. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who have less than ideal motives.

  240. #240 CanadianChick
    August 24, 2008

    Dawn, you are full of bullshit.

    How DARE you suggest that because I don’t have children that I don’t have a right to partake in this debate.

    The fact that I am immunosuppressed, unable to take live vaccine boosters and am therefore very much at risk of contracting the diseases that you apparently selfishly refuse to have your spawn vaccinated against means that I have EVERY right to have a say in this debate.

    And hell, even if I was perfectly healthy, I have a right to participate in this debate – because apparently I care more about ALL children being healthy and not exposed to vicious diseases than you do.

    You refer to others as having less than ideal motives – that takes brass ovaries coming from someone who would happily doom complete strangers because of her preference for wilful ignorance.

    If I wasn’t respectful of Orac’s general preference for “clean” language, I’d be telling you what I REALLY think of your “logic” and your “ideals”.

    Do me a favour – keep your unvaccinated children in a hermetically sealed bubble where they won’t pose a risk to everyone else, ‘kay?

  241. #241 Sara
    August 24, 2008

    If you personally have a vaccine, then you won’t get the measles. Why should it matter if the person sitting next to you doesn’t have the vaccine?

  242. #242 Carlie
    August 24, 2008

    If you personally have a vaccine, then you won’t get the measles. Why should it matter if the person sitting next to you doesn’t have the vaccine?

    Well, for one, if I’m sitting there holding my infant who has not gone through the entire set of booster shots yet, and that unvaccinated person is carrying the measles, I’m going to be incredibly pissed off.

  243. #243 CanadianChick
    August 24, 2008

    well, Sara – for one thing, the vaccine isn’t 100% effective. I had the MMR and all the other vaccines given to kids throughout the 70s and early 80s – but because I never had the misfortune to be exposed, for all we know, I may have been at risk to one or more of the specific diseases. I may have been relying on herd immunity my whole life, no one knows.

    Secondly, vaccination efficacy can wear off over time, hence the use of boosters. I can’t have boosters of some of the vaccines, so here again, I have to rely on herd immunity.

    And, as Carlie has mentioned, some people either can’t have or aren’t yet old enough to have the vaccines.

  244. #244 Dawn's evil twin
    August 24, 2008

    I think we can all agree on one point. That every infectious childhood disease has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, diseases can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties. If you feel comfortable having dolts like Dawn put your child at risk, that is your choice. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who would struggle in basic science class.

  245. #245 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties.

    And yet that’s exactly what you’re doing.

  246. #246 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    Dawn’s evil twin stated: “I think we can all agree on one point. That every infectious childhood disease has the potential to KILL. Whether it be one person or whether it be many, diseases can KILL. Nobody has the right to ask another individual to sacrifice themself or child for the sake of satisfying unsubstantiated fear of a handfull of culties. If you feel comfortable having dolts like Dawn put your child at risk, that is your choice. Last I heard this is a free country and I refuse to place my family’s safe-keeping in the hands of complete strangers who would struggle in basic science class”.

    Well then, move to China. Move to a country that will do the thinking for you – and TELL you what you can/can’t do as a person. Just get the heck out of this FREE country.

    Well, Canadian chick – or shall I say Spawn of Satan?? I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.

    Actually Carlie, you had better keep your infant away from EVERYONE (vaccinated and unvaccinated) for the first year of life because thanks to vaccines, moms no longer offer protection to their babies. THIS alarming fact was published in good ole Pediatrics.

  247. #247 Militant Agnostic
    August 24, 2008

    “and Ronny the Populist said it was a Communist plot.”

    From It Came Out of the Sky by John Fogerty

  248. #248 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Well, Canadian chick – or shall I say Spawn of Satan??

    We’re all friends here, Dawn — you can call her “Spawnie.”

    I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.

    No problem, Dawn. Nobody is going to make you vaccinate. On the other hand as you have pointed out you don’t have the right to endanger others for what you perceive to be your benefit. So it only makes sense that you don’t have contact with all of the rest of us who are (as you put it) such a horrible risk to you and yours through our spiritual contamination (the whole “Spawn of Satan” thing, right?)

    So you go ahead and live in your enclave, pure and safe from the coming Apocalypse, and we’ll run around wearing those scars (mark of the Beast?) on our upper left arms.

    You don’t endanger us by spreading diseases, we don’t endanger you by our “hidden diseases” [1] and nobody has to go around ringing a bell chanting “unclean, unclean!”

    [1] Dawn: “it is the VACCINATED whose pose the greatest risk of all! At least with the unvaccinated you will be able to see symptoms!!”

  249. #249 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    D.C Sessions stated: “No problem, Dawn. Nobody is going to make you vaccinate. On the other hand as you have pointed out you don’t have the right to endanger others for what you perceive to be your benefit. So it only makes sense that you don’t have contact with all of the rest of us who are (as you put it) such a horrible risk to you and yours through our spiritual contamination (the whole “Spawn of Satan” thing, right?)”

    Well, that is not fair D.C. Sessions. Your freshly vaccinated children get to infect others (again, with no obvious symptoms) and mine do not? I am expected to live in a bubble forever while yours get to run around free -shedding their viruses upon mankind? At least I would have the decency to keep them indoors while suffering from the illness – you on the other hand would go about your selfish existence bringing them out in public right AFTER they are vaccinated for weeks on end. How cruel and selfish of you.

  250. #250 D. C. Sessions
    August 24, 2008

    Well, that is not fair D.C. Sessions.

    Quoting your own words back at you? Deal.

  251. #251 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    The plural of anecdote is still not data.

    Also, the high blood pressure from the preeclampsia could have caused the deafness. And even some brain damage that has caused your psychotic need to push your agenda every where you go, like posting your stories several times on this blog.

    Please, get some real help.

  252. #252 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Oh please HCN, like you weren’t responsible for your child’s handicaps by way of vaccines? Are you really that much into denial? Like I said earlier, oh please you dumb broad. Genetics was a small factor, but vaccines played out the rest whether you choose to accept it or not, is up to you. I’d be pissed though….instead you are giving them glory. Go figure. In the life of an American I guess, Pretty creepy.

  253. #253 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn says:
    Like I said earlier, oh please you dumb broad

    Where have we seen that before?

  254. #254 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Oh please John, I just like the term. Nothing more. However, let’s get back to business. I am one very pissed off Mom on a mission. How dare anyone on this board say that their child’s “rights” trump mine. How insane is that? I guess I had better re-read the history books that my son is coming home with – apparently the teachings are warped these days. Far more warped than my former “lectures”.

  255. #255 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn, in what way do vaccines contribute to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy? Do you even know what that is?

  256. #256 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??

  257. #257 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    As for broad, well that comes up with one of the other well known antivaxers. Well I am not sure that he is real, maybe a misguided joke carried way too far? I can hope.

    There is a line between a right and acting outside the social compact. Choosing to put others in danger because of a danger that exists primarily in your head is a good example of the later. If you can find a niche of reality with the amount of certainty you are demanding from vaccines, please tell us about. If you can’t then take a deep breath and live through the uncertainty. I know, it sucks sometimes but I am pretty sure it beats the alternatives.

  258. #258 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    John Wallace stated: “There is a line between a right and acting outside the social compact. Choosing to put others in danger because of a danger that exists primarily in your head is a good example of the later. If you can find a niche of reality with the amount of certainty you are demanding from vaccines, please tell us about. If you can’t then take a deep breath and live through the uncertainty. I know, it sucks sometimes but I am pretty sure it beats the alternatives”.

    Oh really Johnny? Whose perceived danger anyways…yours or mine? Please tell me something I don’t already know wiseguy.

  259. #259 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn, look up hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (and in the case of my son, “with obstruction”). It is not muscle “damage”. Try again.

  260. #260 snerd
    August 25, 2008

    HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??

    Yes, add more question marks Dawn. Stupid him into submission! Victory is assured!

    While we wait for you to come up with an even slightly credible mechanism for this claim, I’d love to hear more about your theory of altered history, though I suspect the beta-Reticuli Reptoids may need to silence you if say to much in public.

  261. #261 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    I know exactly what it is HCN. Do you? Does anyone know the cause on this board? No. There could be numerous reasons for the blockage. Yes, muscle cell damage being one of them.

  262. #262 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    It is really pedantic I know and I apologize but I hate it when spell checkers make me Scottish (nothing personal to any Scots out there.) My last name really is Wallach.

    I thought it would be pretty clear that the dangers I was referring to are from vaccination. Nobody here denies that there are side effects of vaccines. Side effects of any intervention in any process are an unavoidable consequence of that reality thing. Instead we observe the results of vaccination and compare to the side effects of vaccines and marvel at the number of lives saved. Many posts above and in the other threads you are commenting on have shown how many lives have been saved from the measles vaccine and I think that iayork has an even better demonstration complete with graphs that you can see here.

    I think that other people are legitimately sorry for the pain your family is going through. But I also think you don’t know the suffering that vaccine preventable illnesses could cause for others.

  263. #263 John Wallach
    August 25, 2008

    Uh, I apparently don’t know how to use hrefs. The measles post that I was talking about is here http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2008/08/24/more-measles-and-vaccination/

  264. #264 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    BZZZZZZZZT, wrong again. This time I will help you, it is not muscle “damage”…

    4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?overview … “In Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (HCM), the muscle thickening occurs without an obvious cause. In addition, microscopic examination of the heart muscle in HCM is abnormal. The normal alignment of muscle cells is absent and this abnormality is called “myocardial disarray”.”

    It is “obstruction” not “blockage”, the heart muscle has grown larger, and is near the mitral valve. This is not damage but an abnormality in growth.

    And it runs in families. It is genetic. So much so that there are differences in the way it presents itself in different countries. From www .4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?heart … “In a small proportion of patients (approximately 10%), myocardial thickening is predominantly at the tip or “apex” of the heart. This appears to be more common pattern of hypertrophy in Japan than in the West. Patients with Concentric and Apical Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy usually do not have a murmur”

    It is also fairly common, from 4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?common… “A paper by Dr. Barry Maron of the Minneapolis Heart Institute, August 1995, estimated that between 1 in 500 and 1 in 1000 births could be affected by HCM.”

    The genetic links have been researched:
    http://www.4hcm.org/WCMS/index.php?id=80,0,0,1,0,0

    And I have found through conversations with my father where the genetic link was — in the part of the family “we don’t talk about” (it is not only that his mother was adopted, a common thing in “The West” over a century ago due to mother dying in childbirth, but because his grandmother left his grandfather to be with her girlfriend, oh, and something about his aunt, the only “natural” child of the couple being murdered by her husband). The link to genetics is so strong that the HCM organization worked to push the Genetic Information Nondiscrination Act (the link on 4HCM is broken):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_Information_Nondiscrimination_Act

    By the way, preeclamsia is also partially genetic. Though one family in our area found out the hard way. A mother-to-be wanted to avoid being in a hospital because her mother died in one. So when she was pregnant she went to a “Birthing Center”. While she was in labor her blood pressure went up and up, the midwives at the birthing center did not monitor her well enough, and both the woman and the baby died from the extreme blood pressure spike. That “Birthing Center” was closed permanently after her widower and almost father sued.

    It turned out her mother had died in the 1950s from preeclampsia. It was genetic,of the type that only hit after at least one successful pregnancy. ouch

  265. #265 Kev
    August 25, 2008

    “I have an entire family of vaccine-injured people – 5 in all with one death. So, don’t you dare tell me that I must sacrifice their lives for the herd! How DARE YOU.”

    Bullshit. Sorry, to put it so plain Dawn, but you’re about as credible as a David Blaine show. Stop using your family to justify your ignorance.

  266. #266 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Many posts above and in the other threads you are commenting on have shown how many lives have been saved from the measles vaccine and I think that iayork has an even better demonstration complete with graphs that you can see here.

    The real payoff comes after elimination. The smallpox vaccine has the absolute top-ever benefit-to-risk ratio, since it’s saving many millions of lives every year, right now — and has absolutely zero side effects.

    Yeah, I know, the smallpox vaccine is supposed to be one of the nastier ones. But you can’t have side-effects from a vaccine you haven’t had, and today pretty much nobody gets the smallpox vaccine.

    The gift that really goes on giving.

  267. #267 PalMD
    August 25, 2008

    That is one of the best things that never occurred to me…

  268. #268 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    That is one of the best things that never occurred to me…

    I’m guessing you mean the elimination risk/benefit going to zero.

    I made a similar observation in your “old religion writ new” topic. That’s why I’m driven to spitting rage by these [expletive]s: when polio is on the verge of extinction, when measles was heading towards its last human generation, etc. they go and mount a “save the virus!” campaign.

    If you don’t like vaccines, your best bet is extinction of the diseases in the first place. And those never-to-be-sufficiently-condemned-bastards are making sure that generations to come will need the vaccines!

  269. #269 Keenacat
    August 25, 2008

    Of course muscle cell damage can occur during vaccination… Sticking a needle into a muscle tends to be pretty invasive.
    I would not recommend injecting vaccines into the heart muscle to avoid any damage thereof.

  270. #270 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    D.C. Sessions stated: “If you don’t like vaccines, your best bet is extinction of the diseases in the first place. And those never-to-be-sufficiently-condemned-bastards are making sure that generations to come will need the vaccines”!

    Actually, we are raising an entirely new generation of drug dependentant, chronically-ill and neurologically deficient children because of vaccines. Which is worse? The disease itself or the vaccine? Someone earlier stated that their child was in high-honors despite all of the numerous vaccines administered. Well, high-honors compared to what -their peers? I hate to tell you, but children are far less intelligent these days then they were say 20 years ago. The curriculum has been “dumbed down” over the years to accommodate society and their mental handicaps. So, YOU may think that your child is smart, but in reality, probably just average when comparing his/her capabilities to that of his/her peers say 20 years ago.

  271. #271 ozzy
    August 25, 2008

    “The curriculum has been “dumbed down” over the years to accommodate society and their mental handicaps.”

    Bullshit Dawn! AP Calculus is still AP Calculus, it hasn’t been dumbed down. The same concepts, with improvement due to new findings, in AP Physics are being taught now as they were 20 years ago. That’s the biggest load of BS that’s being floated around. Don’t bring up our recent “leave no child behind” test scores because these tests were never done on earlier generations. Show me the evidence, other than your “personal observations” which don’t account for anything since you can’t comprehend basic principles of probability and logical reasoning. The one thing that has changed is that children with disabilities are actually taught things instead of locking them in facilities so Mommy and Daddy don’t have to be ashamed.

  272. #272 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Actually, we are raising an entirely new generation of drug dependentant, chronically-ill and neurologically deficient children because of vaccines.

    So — I want to be sure I’m not misrepresenting you here — you think we would be better off on the whole by taking smallpox out of storage and reintroducing it to the world?

  273. #273 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    You are wrong Ozzy…the SATs are proof that the curriculum has been repeatedly dumbed down over the years. Ask yourself this question. Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning? More today, than ever before. Why are schools now using language based math text books? Why is it normal for a teenager not to be able to do more than 2nd grade math – again, comparing the test scores to peers of the same age? Normal? This was not seen in one school, but several across the country. Why do schools receive funding for every fully immunized child? Is that why they are keeping their mouths shut about this alarming problem too?

  274. #274 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    Ask yourself this question. Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning?

    Because they’re learning from you, Dawn.

  275. #275 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    You really are an immature ignorant fool D.C. Sessions. You don’t even have enough common sense to think “outside of the box”. Don’t worry though, you will never hear “I told you so” out of my mouth after you figure out what you have done to your children.

  276. #276 Dawn
    August 25, 2008

    Canadianchick stated: “The fact that I am immunosuppressed, unable to take live vaccine boosters and am therefore very much at risk of contracting the diseases…”.

    Canadianchick, I actually think we need to watch out for eachother as citizens. Everything that Canada does will directly affect the U.S. and everything that the U.S. does will directly affect Canada. After all, the U.S., Canada, and Mexico will become one nation in the very near future. Maybe you are not aware that Canada is currently trying to “ban” vitamins/herbal supplements and impose heavy fines/time in jail? Also, certain groups here in the U.S. are trying desperately to “force vaccinate” all individuals – whether immune compromised or not – you would be forced to have the vaccine also. They almost got away with it too in N.Y. The U.S. is also trying desperately to ban vitamins/supplements in this country too. The FDA wants a piece of the pie now. So, if your immune system is relying on this type of alternative means, I do hope that you join the resistance movement to stop these insane organizations. Your health and the health of many others depend on it. Do you really want Big Pharma in control of what you can/cannot take as treatment?

  277. #277 D. C. Sessions
    August 25, 2008

    You really are an immature ignorant fool D.C. Sessions.

    Should we take that as confirmation that I have correctly represented your position?

  278. #278 ozzy
    August 25, 2008

    Actually Dawn the SAT scores from 1972 to 2005 have remained pretty constant according to the College Board, but I bet they made up those numbers also.

    “Why are so many children exhibiting learning disabilities in the area of critical thinking/abstract reasoning?”

    And you can show me that there were less in earlier generations? Right. Well Dawn, basic logic dictates that you can’t make any judgement regarding incidence increases when the metrics used to assess the condition have changed. Learning disabilities have only recently been accepted by society. Ever think that maybe we are testing for disabilities more often now instead of just labeling Johnny a dumb or stupid kid.

  279. #279 Natalie
    August 25, 2008

    Why is it normal for a teenager not to be able to do more than 2nd grade math – again, comparing the test scores to peers of the same age? Normal?

    Who considers this normal?

    This was not seen in one school, but several across the country.

    Seen by whom?

    Why do schools receive funding for every fully immunized child?

    Since schools receive all of their funding on a per child basis, it stands to reason that they would receive funding for every fully immunized child. They also receive funding for partially immunized children and non-immunized children.

    Also, certain groups here in the U.S. are trying desperately to “force vaccinate” all individuals – whether immune compromised or not

    That’s quite the extreme assertion there, Dawn. You have a source to back that up?

  280. #280 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    ozzy said “Learning disabilities have only recently been accepted by society. Ever think that maybe we are testing for disabilities more often now instead of just labeling Johnny a dumb or stupid kid.”

    And before 1975 a school district could refuse to allow a child to attend if they could not do something as “simple” as speaking (like my oldest son). There are many stories of people being institutionalized when they were actually deaf (happened in our state more than once, and a “School of the Deaf” was available). Some history here:
    http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/leg/idea/history.html … “Before the enactment of Public Law 94-142, the fate of many individuals with disabilities was likely to be dim. Too many individuals lived in state institutions for persons with mental retardation or mental illness. In 1967, for example, state institutions were homes for almost 200,000 persons with significant disabilities. Many of these restrictive settings provided only minimal food, clothing, and shelter. Too often, persons with disabilities, such as Allan, were merely accommodated rather than assessed, educated, and rehabilitated. (See side bar: Allan’s Story.)”

    I also would be surprised if Dawn had taken the SAT herself (or realized that the maximum is now 2400). Though, I have never taken it either, I took the ACT in 1974. High school students are not required to take the SAT, and many do not. My oldest son took the Compass test to place in community college.

  281. #281 HCN
    August 25, 2008

    Natalie said “That’s quite the extreme assertion there, Dawn. You have a source to back that up?”

    Well she hasn’t given a valid source yet, why would she start now? She gets all her facts (like the polio vaccine created by a fellow called “Saulk”) from a couple of Yahoo groups, like the one that was blogged about here:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/green_our_vaccines_antivaccinationist.php

  282. #282 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 26, 2008

    Well … The “Save the Virus” society may have Jenny McCarthy, but the Brazilian rubella vaccine campaign that is currently running has some blazing star power behind it

    Karina Bacchi:
    http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210×600/karina-bacchi-145707.jpg

    Preta Gil: http://www.jovempanfm.com.br/bimg/preta_gil.jpg

    Brazilian Judo star and model Flavio Canto
    http://lh4.google.com/image/lickspot/Rn_cuY9TUqI/AAAAAAAAG0g/9o8WMBOWiFY/s400/flavio_canto_01_05.jpg

    Singer Margareth Meneses:
    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/142/319153437_ba3c80aa21.jpg?v=0

    And a whole bunch of others.

  283. #283 HCN
    August 30, 2008

    Dawn said (trying to equate a genetic form of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy to vaccines): “HCN, if vaccines can cause muscle cell damage (which has been documented), what do you think??”

    O..K..A..Y… being that HCM is caused by the thickening of heart muscle, not real damage, but a condition that causes high blood pressure through the mitral valve (not that Dawn would understand that at all) — Today, I gave blood, again (I am at the three gallon level!), and for the first time I was asked if I or my mother had spent more than six months in Mexico (by the way, folks… it is in North America), Central or South America. I said said “yes”, since I was born there and spent a third of my youth prior to attending university here.

    It turns out that the question was prompted by concerns with “Chagas Disease”. This is something that is endemic in areas between Mexico and down as far south as the middle of Chile and Argentina. Its main vector is an insect, but can be passed through breast milk, hence the question about the mother. As it turns out, it can cause chronic heart disease!

    We shall see what my blood analysis shows.

    But since the last time I was in that part of the world was 1975, and the heart condition is actually genetic, and my other children (who were breastfed twice as long as the oldest) so far show no sign of any heart problems… I am betting that I have never been bitten by a “Kissing Bug” and do not have Chagas Disease. Though I have had dengue fever, and would not wish that on anyone (okay, maybe Dawn and some other internet loons, but only because I and both of my sisters survived — even if it is called “bone break fever”).

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