Left is right and up is down: An actual pro-vaccine article on The Huffington Post?

I had given up reading HuffPoop because of the intense lack of anything approaching science, and the entire lack of humor possibilities therein. As you know, that other suppository of anti-vax poop is far more humourous.

When I read Dr. Offit's article, I was hopeful that HuffPoop was undergoing "Change" in the new era of a pro-science President. Then, it struck me. I followed the money.

I suspect that HuffPoop's revenue is down, and they figured that they could score higher and get more visits by posting something that would be controversial. IOW, they are using Dr. Offit to make a profit.

Disgusting.

Have you read the comments on the HuffPo's article? I need to go to bed because my head is hurting.

It's especially telling about the moderation style at HufPo that people are ripping pro-vaccine comments that obviously have been deleted after slipping through moderation in the first place.
The gem of all gems was the "you're pro-vaccine, so you must have a financial or other bias" comment.

Offitt's article was a breath of fresh air---the surrounding pieces are wasted bytes of inanity....

Newborns are constantly exposed to many types of bacteria and viruses through many different methods. This is actually GOOD for them. Also, many vaccines are viruses, not bacteria and all vaccines contain dead or weakened versions anyway.

OT - Orac, you need to do a squid article, PZ is poaching in your woo pool.

I used to post on their pro-disease blogs (and on a lot of other stuff there), usually attempting to link to actual published studies demonstrating a lack of linkage between vaccination and autism. Almost always my posts would be blocked by the moderators or show up and be deleted by the blogger (presumably) afterwords. When my overall rate of comment censorship reached about 15% (and I'd made over 2000 posts) I gave up. Since they apparently have an unpublished rule of "its against the rules to disagree with a blogger" I was pretty much out of luck.

One day I saw a pro-vaccine post by Arthur Allen and I was so happy to see a rational post that I actually emailed him to thank him. He responded and seemed just as happy that someone appreciate what he said.

Speaking of Michigan (which is also my home state) has a study ever been conducted to see if there's a link between states with an active "citizen's" militia, and states with large numbers of unvaccinated children?

One would assume so, since both feed off self-righteousness, conspiracy theory run amok and hysteria.

I've read through some of the comments on the site as well. There seems to be reoccurring themes: 1) there is an autism epidemic and the numbers are rising (population increase is not addressed) 2) 1 in 150 have ASD, which means 1 in 150 kids are completely incapable of doing anything "normal" (when in fact the vast majority of that 1 in 150 have aspects identified as ASD characteristics and are fully capable of growing up and living an otherwise normal life) 3) lots of 'my' and 'I', and me, me, me...feel sorry for me because I have to deal with my damaged child. There was even one comment that dealing with childhood cancer should be put on hold to address those with autism because that is more important 4) there is low incidences of measles (and other infectious diseases) so we don't need vaccinations.

I think the IQ of America has dropped and the ego/narcissism has skyrocketed. These people claim to understand the issues better than those trained in medicine or working in a relevant scientific field.

I am glad Offit provided a voice on the Huffington Post. It's shaking up their little delusional sanctuary. Kirby must be crapping himself.

Please don't wake me up,I must be dreaming!Sanity and reason at HuffPo...intelligence and diplomacy in the White House....and the week's not over yet.

Wow. I used to read Huffington Post occasionally for non-science articles. Now they're losing any ad revenue I might have generated.

It really does look like they just allowed this "controversial" article to drive up their traffic and give their regular anti-science folks a punching bag thread. It's sick.

Shay posted an idea to correlate citizen's militia membership to anti-vax and disease outbreaks. I'd add church affiliation, doctor's offices (of patients), natural food coop membership, and tv ratings for shows on which Jenny McCarthy appears or gets positive press. Could be some interesting ammunition in this.

John, my impression is that there's no rule on HP for disagreeing with bloggers. There is a rule against disagreeing with bloggers who post woo.

Well Joshua, there is no written rule that says that. However, I have probably ~200 posts that were "moderated" and the only conceivable thing wrong with them was disagreeing with the blogger (in the non-woo blogs). I also have several which probably actually did violate their stated rules but they comprise a sliver of a fraction of the total "moderated" posts :P

I mean its also definitely blogger specific as there are some who encourage discourse and actually, gasp, respond to comments. Maybe things have changed in the last 6 months or so but that's how it was going when I gave up.

I wonder if you or any of your readers can help me with this. Partly as a result of getting thrown out of a friend's house for arguing with some anti-vax fuckwits, I've become even more pro-vax, and even more outraged that middle-class parents who don't even understand the risk that infectious diseases, now preventable, pose to us, I've been investigating the issue.
The question is this: I've read somewhere that a very recent on (I think) MMR came up with the following conclusions.
1) That vaccines were safe
2) that vaccines marginally improved the general health of vaccinated children, possibly because only generally healthy children were vaccinated in the first place (is this always true?)
and 3) That rates of asthma in vaccinated children were lower, both in terms of frequency and intenstiy of attacks.
What study was this, and do I have my (remembered) conclusions generally correnct?
Over to you...
PS if any pharmaceutical company would like to pay me a lot of money to promote vaccination I am certainly up for it ;)

There is another anti-vaccine article on HuffPost today, this time about Gov. Paterson's selection of Kirsten Gillibrand to take over Hillary Clinton's senate seat, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/senator-gillibrand-suppor_b_1…. Apparently Ms. Gillibrand is a strong supporter of autism-vaccine research and the posted article praises Gov. Paterson's choice for this reason. I posted the following comment:

"May I ask why the mountain of research already completed on the subject is so inadequate? The most obvious possible answer is because the large body of existing research has not found any link between vaccines and autism. Autism typically presents during the same years vaccinations take place but correlation does not equal causation. And causation has never been proven."

I know it won't make anyone think or change their mind, I freely admit that I was just throwing meat to mad dogs. But I believe that a day without subversion is a day wasted.

Anthony, the heart of the anti-vax movement is that it sounds plausible and sympathetic to people that don't understand science. Science appeals to logic, anti-vaxers appeal to the emotions. They use very sympathetic terms that make it seem like they only want the best for children and the justifications sound plausible on the surface.

To disagree on an appeal to emotions makes you appear cold and heartless. Don't you CARE about THE CHILDREN!?!?! Logic and science are easier to dismiss when you are debating on those grounds. By disagreeing with your friends you made yourself into someone that doesn't care about the children! At least in their minds. Therefore, anything else you had to say was soiled by that.

Science is scary and complex. Most people don't understand it. Even less can describe it effectively. Caring for children? That's easy to explain. You don't have to have proof to debate emotions.

There is a local anti-vaxer that stalks around the young mommy forums. She has her own little "organization" that does "education seminars". The thing is she sounds very sympathetic, she sounds like the valiant mistreated hero that is putting up the good fight to protect the welfare of the children. When anyone disagrees with her she shouts them down and people defend her because she has an autistic child "damaged by vaccines". Any dissenters are branded as uncaring of her efforts and struggles in dealing with an autistic child for over a decade!

The reality of the situation is much different, but no one dares question a "dedicated mother".

Her "education" is nothing but the latest tripe and brochures procured from whale, AoA, GR and anything else she finds on the University of Google, translated with comments that show how little she understands it. She talks about the horrors of autism, but her child was cured(!!!) through prayer and homeopathic medicine (if you can fix autism with water and a bible, why avoid vaccinations?). No one questions why this mother of teenage children spends most of her time with mothers of very young children (the young frazzled mother is a much easier target for woo, and easier target for appeals to emotion). Above all she is quite frankly a bully that preys on the sympathy of other parents, the same as most other anti-vaxers (when your logic is flawed, you have to be a bully to get your point across). All of this time and effort to prove to the world that it couldn't possibly be her own genes that caused her child's autism.

Arguing with her is pointless, and anyone who does so comes off looking like the bad guy. Many times I wanted to argue, but I know deep inside it won't do any good so haven't. Anti-vaxers don't have to be right, they just have to be appealing and make you look uncaring. It reinforces their point to the onlookers. And that is what they are after.

Actually, it was worse for me than I mentioned. I started agrguing with them about homeopathy. When I said that it was pseudo-scientific nonsense, which only "works" by means of the placebo effect, and that it was mostly harmless except in its denial of the efficacy of vaccines, she said that her son had got cerebral palsy as a direct result of his vaccines. That is a conversation stopper, and impossible to argue with. I still think it's important for us rationalists and those who support evidence-based medicine to loudly argue with these people, but, as you say, this can be difficult.

AnthonyK
she said that her son had got cerebral palsy as a direct result of his vaccines
I'd have asked her to prove it but I do get your point. Argument against 'the group' is generally pointless. You need to get people one on one and try to make them think for themselves.

Well their nonsense does need to be countered, it's the arguing that doesn't work. They thrive on that. It gives their view credibility that you would take the time to acknowledge their point and argue over it. They justify the "controversy" by people arguing with them.

If I say that the sky is red with green spots and you tell me I'm wrong, it isn't a controversy - but an anti-vaxer would argue that it is. The debate is over. They want more research in the same way Death kept wanting more tries at beating Bill & Ted in Bogus Journey. Best 2 of 3? Best 3 of 5? Best of 7? They want to keep trying in hopes that eventually a study will tell them what they want to hear.

@Shay and Mike Ma

Actually, if you correlate the pockets of un-vaxed kids with median household income, you find that these children come from fairly well-to-do families, mostly nuclear households, at that. The measles outbreak in San Diego hit in a very affluent district.

This is not just any kind of stupidity we're dealing with, it's LUXURY stupidity.

Nice post, but the induction of the immune response from intramuscular injection of antigen occurs in lymph nodes as antigen is transported by draining lymph and by dendritic cells. The induction of the immune response from intramuscular injection does not, however, occur in the bloodstream at all.

"The induction of the immune response from intramuscular injection does not, however, occur in the bloodstream at all."

No, but statements like "...injected DIRECTLY into the infant bloodstream" are much more dramatic! Imagine an evil doctor stabbing a 10mm-wide needle into the baby's arm, giving the child autism. It just makes for a better read.

Rogue
Interesting. I think that having too much time on one's hands might be the operative feature of this. If all adults are busy working, they don't have time to listen to bullshit and much less money to spend on crap the insurance companies wont cover. A confluence of money (ladies who lunch), time (to google, watch oprah, etc) and enough self-assurance to trust your feelings (over logical proof) are required in that order to make it happen. Cool.

Ms. Huffington is a major league magical-thinker. She was once (and probably still is) in thrall to a charlatan guru called John-Roger in California. The far right has Jeebus and the Rapture, the far left has Deepak and Peak-Oil. The middle looks better and better every day.

@ababa
There's a name for curing a sick person using water and a Bible: exorcism

I had to come back and look because I couldn't remember whether this study was Michigan or Minnesota. Just saw this in Minnesota:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090123/ap_on_he_me/med_hib_infections

Minn. illnesses worry CDC officials

Three of the five children â including the dead child â had not received any vaccine, due to a decision by their parents. But a shortage of Hib vaccine may also have contributed, CDC officials said.

Sigh. Same S***, Different state.

RJ: "No, but statements like "...injected DIRECTLY into the infant bloodstream" are much more dramatic!"

I know, it's all about the fear factor with them. I've just about given up trying to correct it every time I read someone posting on parenting sites that vaccine viruses are "grown in human fetuses." It conjures up images of tiny babies in jars, with viruses bubbling out of them. *sigh*

Also, I've seen this claim thrown around a lot, can someone please explain it to me? That the fever one might get post-vaccination is due to "the chemicals being processed through the brain." What the...?

CP from a vaccine??????
CP does not just "come on", it is the result of a fetal or neonatal complication *up to age 14 days*. The specific motor or developmental deficits the child has depends on the stage in gestation (or post birth problem) the damage to the brain was incurred. Some factors include heredity, older mothers, fetal anoxia, rupture of blood vessels,fetal stroke, smoking while pregnant, compression of the brain during labor, asphyxia by the umbilical cord, premature separation of the placenta, prematurity, vascular accidents, intracranial hemorrhage, head trauma, brain infections, toxoplasmosis, etc. Injuries sustained at different weeks of fetal development can specify certain expected deficits, with a direct correlation with any embryological development table.

The kid's problems/deficits may not be detected until later, especially if the parent isn't observant or knowledgeable of the typical infant behaviour/development timeline.

Your "friend" obviously is in denial, as any physical therapist or pediatrician she has seen because of the kid's condition will have explained all this to her, and there are a 50 decent CP information sites on line.

I know! But at that point, for me, argument over. Shortly afterwards my host told me to leave.

AnthonyK, I have also heard the claim that vaccine can cause cerebral palsy from a strident anti-vax mom. This was years ago, she claimed it was a study from the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota, but she never gave any specifics.

But it was also from a person who claimed that aluminum was a heavy metal, and was upset when she was told that the MMR vaccine never contained thimerosal.

I suspect there was something on that idiotic whale.to website that had an old moldy paper that was misinterpreted.

I wow, I guessed right! I just googled "vaccine cerebral palsy" and whale was the third hit.

Here it is, and the year 2000 sounds about the time the loon was telling me this:
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/cerebral.html

Yes, seeing your reference to that wonderful site, I now see how wrong I was. Still, easily cured using chiropractic though.

Funnily enough, IIRC I found this blog through HuffPo (a long time ago). Even then I could sense the woo, before I'd even been made aware it was this bad.

Shooting a newborn or infant full of bacteria straight into their blood, 23 different kinds on a "recommended" vaccination program is nothing short of insane

And here I was, all thinking that vaccines were primarily for viruses. And weren't given until quite a bit after birth. Over several years.

Rare sickness kills child; officials urge vaccination
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/23/hib.vaccine.cdc/index.html?ere…

A childhood illness that has mostly been curbed through vaccinations has killed one child and sickened four others in Minnesota, health officials said Friday. Authorities recommend that those younger than 2 years be vaccinated against 14 diseases, including Hib. The five children were infected with a bacterial infection known as Hib: Haemophilus influenzae type b. Three of the affected children had not received any vaccinations, including the 7-month-old who died, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

dreiken said "And here I was, all thinking that vaccines were primarily for viruses. And weren't given until quite a bit after birth. Over several years."

Well, actually the DTaP, pneumococcal and Hib vaccines are for bacterial infections. The pertussis and Hib are particularly nasty to infants. But they are give at the 2mo, 4mo and 6mo old.

The viral vaccines given to infants are the rotavirus, polio, and HepB. The other vaccine for viral diseases like mumps, measles, rubella, chicken pox and others are give after the child's first birthday.

See schedule:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6y…

This post was quoted on the Bad Astronomy blog:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-a-offit-md/dont-risk-going-unvaccina…

Proof some of these people do not really understand some of the basics:
"Our son is currently undergoing chelation and is excreting 2-6x the amount an adult is expected to in a lab test that is done. Heavy metals such as lead, aluminum, mercury and uranium to name some."

I'd really like to know which lab found the uranium!

(and not to mention where he lives that aluminum is a heavy metal)

I don't follow the vaccination issue carefully, but I am really heartened that science and openness are already being promoted with the new Administration.

It's been 10 years since my shoulder met up with a porcupine regarding the issue of Td so I guess it's time...

I patronize natural foods markets mostly for food free of HFCS and trans-fats. I don't really care about micro-traces of pesticides, but I try to eat low-glycemic index, and some of the hippie-food store products are good for that.

RE: the above post - analytical chemistry technology is good enough that it can probably detect, in most anybody, find ppt (parts per trillion) amounts of just about any naturally-occurring element, as well as a number of manmade compounds from environmental exposures. Doesn't necessarily mean the exposure is at physiological threshold levels.

I'm not from the USA so this doesn't directly affect me, but what is the typical policy of health insurance providers regarding unvaccinated children? Seems to me that hospitalization costs could be refused on the basis of a 'pre-existing condition' namely being unvaccinated. Or a substantial premium increase could be justified on an actuarial basis which shouldn't be covered by an employer.

Not that I want to see sick kids untreated when they need treatment, but the prospect of higher insurance premiums or possibility of ruinous uninsured medical expenses might bring woo-followers back to reality.

And this shouldn't apply to those who can't be vaccinated for valid medical reasons, or those whose vaccination fails to protect.

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.
I guess this is Huff-Puffs acorn.

I just read half the comments on the article. The stupidity there is knee deep.

They keep repeating the autism is on the rise hypothesis. The problem with that is that yes autism on the rise. However diagnosises of learning disabilities and mental retardation have fallen at the same time.

So that's why the number of cases of autism have increased.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20050307/study-childhood-rise-in…

I also wish they'd shut up about the 135 cases of measles. Measles is one of the most contagious diseases on the planet. Stop vaccinating in the United States and you damned well bet you'll see a lot more than 135 cases of measles. You'll also see a lot more ugly side effects than any vaccine ever created.

The NWO is putting uranium in the vaccines now??

Is there no limit to what those evil bastards will do?

Are the anit-vaccers aware that their tinfoil hats are made of the dreaded "heavy metal" aluminum?

Credulous minds want to know.

hi. I must say congratulations! Wonderful changes and new opportunities. All these people are glad for you.. me too ...

I would love to contact these parents for clarification on vaccination status. After all, common sense tells us all not to believe anything the media tells us.

If anyone can provide their names, I would love to research it further. Please let me know.

Dawn said "If anyone can provide their names, I would love to research it further. Please let me know."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIPAA#The_Privacy_Rule

After all, common sense tells us all not to believe anything the media tells us.

You can't believe what Common Sue tells you either, Dawn.

Dawn said "After all, common sense tells us all not to believe anything the media tells us."

Especially when that media is the "journalism" at Age of Autism.

I thought so...that is why these "facts" are bogus. Plain and simple. I am not a moron. Vaccines are not scientifically proven safe and effective - my family is living proof of that along with no scientific data.

Ah, here's Dawn to tell us that evidence based medicine has got it all wrong. You see, the real truth is that miasmas cause disease, affecting as they do the four humours of the body - and they're never prevented by vaccines. Anyone who disagrees is wickedly conspiring with the pharmaceutical companies and doctors like Orac and Paul Offit, making vast sums of money while unleashing a tidal wave of easily preventable mental impairment on helpless children. That's it in nutshell, yes? Or have I left anything out?
Where is this pharma shill money, goddamit? I'll happily spread disinformation if it'll make me rich!

I have a homework assignment that everyone might find entertaining.

First, find a homework "buddy" in a different county.

Next, set up a journal online with your "buddy".

Lastly, have them "read" your online journal to "evaluate" you on a daily/monthly/yearly level. By far, Americans are exposed to the most amount of toxins around the globe. It would be interesting to see how your "buddy" assesses you on a monthly level - at least.

Actually, Anthonyk, I don't blame you guys for going on the defense. If I spent thousands of dollars on my eduation in medicine - I too, would probably be "tempted" to lie and say that vaccines are good - not - I would never lie and hurt someone. Some people don't have a conscience though. I speak to nurses every day that are questioning everything that they have ever been taught though - thank God - we have "some" with a conscience.

Dawn - do ever support your position with evidence or do you just insult the character of others?

You wooist are fond of the old days, right? Remember when people would kill you for accusing them of something you can't prove?

Actually, Julian, my family's vaccine nightmare begins in Sept 2008 of this blog.

http://vaccinesexposed.blogspot.com/

I do have everything saved on a hard drive with a friend in the event that everything just "magically just disappears" though.

You just never know what Big Pharma's move is though. I have had friends physically threatened so many years ago!

No, really it's no trouble for them to lie. I mean, most doctors don't spend all that time and effort learning medicine because they want to make people better - it's really about power (and money obviously). Thank goodness that there are people like you who know so much about real science and will stand up for what's right and true. Just think how many more children would die if we just relied on these so-called experts and their corrupt ways, rather than trusting to anecdote, paranoia, and magical thinking?

Actually, Anthonyk, I don't blame you guys for going on the defense. If I spent thousands of dollars on my eduation in medicine - I too, would probably be "tempted" to lie and say that vaccines are good

Thousands? What is this? The 1980s? An average private medical school charges more than 40k per year now. Throw in living expenses and interest and you're talking more than 200 grand in debt. And the interest is piling up on all but 34k of those loans for the entire time the student is in residency.

I speak to nurses every day that are questioning everything that they have ever been taught though - thank God - we have "some" with a conscience.

Should this inquiry include anatomy? Are the names of the cranial nerve pairs also an evil lie manufactured by Big Pharma?

"You just never know what Big Pharma's move is though. I have had friends physically threatened so many years ago!"

I call bullshit.

Bullshit that people are harassed and bullied? Are you guys for real? I think that you had better get to know your patients better - that's all. Find out who they are and where they came from.

Anthony - people don't trust doctors anymore and with good reason. They sold their souls to the devil.

"Bullshit that people are harassed and bullied? Are you guys for real?"

You accused the Pharamceutical Industry (acting as one body) of physically threatening someone you know. Like a shakedown. That's a damn big charge so don't start balking now.

Shut up Julian is all I have to say....Your "medicine" is eventually what kills people. That and their stupid vaccines and junk medicine!

Yes, God gave us medicine, but not like this..."some" people die during clinical trials??? Are you guys nuts? Have you lost your minds? Medicine was meant to save people not hurt them! I don't care if just one life was lost - that is too many in my book.

In other words, Dawn cannot back up her ridiculous charges.

No surprise there.

I honestly do not want you to act ignorant to the fact that the majority of our "kids" feel "stupid". We need to act together as "parents" PLEASE!!! Forget about the vaccine issue, we have enough to deal with!

Orac,

My husband and I would love to meet you. Seriously, as geekish as it is... we would.

If you ever have the balls enough to meet, let me know.

Dawn

What? You need to run this by your bosses first? Long time before a response guy!

Dawn said "I honestly do not want you to act ignorant to the fact that the majority of our "kids" feel "stupid"."

Evidence please?

It may depend on the parents since intelligence is frequently inherited. Though the observed Flynn effect seems to counter your unreferenced statement.

Dawn, medicine really did fail you. After your son was born very prematurely due to your preeclampsia, your tubes should have been tied to prevent any further pregnancies. That way you would not be at risk for the high blood pressure and would have not needed a rubella vaccine.

Dawn impatiently said "What? You need to run this by your bosses first? Long time before a response guy!"

Look at the clock, it is presently almost midnight on the East Coast. He may have turned off the computer before your request, which is almost a threat (I'm not a lawyer, but that is not a good thing to do these days).

I would suggest that you switch whatever you are drinking with just plain water, turn off the computer and go to bed.

Wow..HCN you are a true insensitive jackass!

I would like to meet JERK too! Give me this address please?

Does this mean that Orac is chickenshit for next weekend?

Hey HCN,

I definitely want to meet you too you weirdo

Orac and HCN are full of shit and afraid to meet me? Stay tuned...

Word of advice: Never drink and post on the Internet.

What is up with these guys? Afraid? Kindof like Orac?

Christ, Dawn, I'd be afraid to meet you, too! You come off here like a rabid dog, snapping at anyone who gets too close! Perhaps you're very nice in person, but anyone who has ever read your comments on this blog is more likely to run for their lives if they know you're in the room with them!

Hey jerk, where do you want to meet?

You name it - I will be there no mater what...

Fuck you

This is just the beginning..U r dumb

Question time! What do the Anti-Vax movement, the Creationism/YEC/Intelligent Design movement, the 9/11 Truthers, and the Anti-Abortion/Birth Control Crowds all have in common?

(besides stark raving stupidity and pride in being some of the biggest idiots on the planet)

*Ding* Time's up!

A uniform dislike for facts, a belief that they are right and when they are proven wrong by facts they are being "oppressed," a mentality that does not change (the nouns change, but the "arguments" stay the same; but a YEC argument next to a 9/11 Truther or Anti-Vax argument sometime; they're identical in every way but the subject matter)and strong streak of paranoia. Of course, I doubt this is something we all didn't know already.

Enigma

I am at a loss to the constant bickering of how autism was brought on by vaccines and big pharam, yes Dawn,I mean you.
Jesus Christ, ENOUGH ALREADY! If the medical community brought on this wickedness to torment all parents, then go out, do the research and find the cure and then you can stick it to all of us who work in health care. The disrespect, the nastiness to people whom you most likely have never even met and your self righteousness is appalling and revealing of your hurt and anger.
I can empathize/sympathize with anyone who deals with disease and disability, it is never any easy road, but to assume that EVERYONE in health care is in it for the money and not for their patients or to help create better medicines or lobby for better policy is absolutely offensive.
And before you get in a fit,thinking I am a pharma sales rep or something, I am an oncology massage therapist who has had the honor of working on patients with cancer, HIV/AIDS, in ICU/CCU, etc.

Said on the Huffington blog, as an argument against vaccination (since sometimes people still get a disease that they have been vaccinated against):

"People die in car crashes with their seat belts on. Why should we wear our seat belts then?"

At first I thought this was satire. But it wasn't.

When people apply this kind of "logic," there's nothing that will ever convince them I fear.

The true incomprehension of the anti-vax nuts, like Dawn, show up immediately in their accusations that vaccination is a conspiracy, as detailed above. Parents, understandably distressed by having children with learning difficulties, seek someone, or something, to blame for their child's condition, and evidence-based medicine has to be the fall guy. When confronted with the solidity of doctors and other health professionals in the face of their accusations (and of course the evidence behind the science) their only recourse is to accuse everyone of bad faith, inspired by - what else? - money. Doctors believe passionately that vaccination programmes drastically improve our health and that they do not cause autism. This is why they vaccinate themselves and their own children - isn't this so, Orac? So the paranoid accusations of bad faith are simply a delusion. Misinterpretion of the motivations of others is the surest way to tell that the person opposing you is a crank, at best. And Dawn, your request for a personal debate with you and your husband is absurd. Like the nurses you have "educated", health professionals will show polite interest, but behind your back, shake their heads, raise their eyes to the celing, and get on with educating people on the best way forward for public and personal well-being.

Miss Fifi said: " am at a loss to the constant bickering of how autism was brought on by vaccines and big pharam, yes Dawn,I mean you.
Jesus Christ, ENOUGH ALREADY! If the medical community brought on this wickedness to torment all parents",

No, they just want to make money Miss Fifi. I honestly would love to meet people that spend their days and nights writing about how "good" vaccines are. These people are the nastiest people of all.

Point proved. Now, where's that goddamn pharma money?

Indeed.

I frequently hear the charge from rabid antivaccine advocates that I am somehow "in the pocket" or "on the payroll" of big pharma. Given that, I have one question: Where the hell's all that big pharma filthy lucre? I haven't seen any of it! I mean, come on! I write one of the top ten highest trafficked medical blogs, and I'm relentless in shooting down the misinformation spouted by the antivaccine contingent, not to mention applying science and skepticism to the claims of alt-med. Big pharma ought to be truly grateful, and I want my cut. Maybe if it's enough I could even quit my job and spend my days in my sweatpants in front of my computer churning out this peerless prose.

But, alas, no, there's no big pharma gravy train for me. I have to go back to work tomorrow morning and back to my usual heavy schedule. I still have to work like a dog to get my papers published and my grants funded (which I may not even be able to do in this climate). I still have to do my best to take care of my patients (the best thing of all).

No, they just want to make money Miss Fifi. I honestly would love to meet people that spend their days and nights writing about how "good" vaccines are. These people are the nastiest people of all.

Nastiest people of all? As in worse than mass murderers, serial rapists, terrorists, and the like? You might find that people will laugh at you less if you wouldn't always resort to such hyperbole.

If you are pro-vax or anti-vax it doesn't mean you are an extreme big pharma tool or a crazed anti-science nut.

There are many questions to be asked of vaccines. How effective? Can contamination in the production process cause neuro injuries? Why are so many given in such a short time? Why do doctors (saw statistics on this) pass on themselves getting for instance Rubella and other vaccines when it is suggested in their field of specialty etc? Why did non-vax populations fail to show the same level and degree of neuro problems that vax populations show? Compare the Amish to the general population??? Anyone???

No safety studies for children have ever been done on any vaccine. Legislation has made it impossible to sue vaccine makers. CDC officials nearly all have ties to big pharma. The list of conflicts of interest, money, and lack of objective studies for both sides of the debate is what fuels the fears of people.

Science is not always right; it is in a process of evolving. Anti-nausea medication for pregnant women led to birth deformities--the flipper kids. So if anyone questioned that drug and the medical community back then, they would be condemned as nut jobs?

It is our duty as free people to question authority, etc. and have choices. When authority whitewashes the 'facts' with 'studies' by people connected to or paid by big pharma, anyone in their right, rational mind should be skeptical.

Finally, I have to point out that if your kid is vaccinated then you should not worry if someone else's kid is not. If you are, you betray your own feeling (irrational thought) that maybe your 'protected' kid might get sick from the non-vaxed child; which is ludicrous if the vaccine really works. If that is the case, well...

And I AM NOT ANTI-VAX--I am for research, study, and reasonable application of vaccines for the real 'killer' diseases. It used to be reasonable but now the multi-million dollar revenues are pushing into the driver's seat.

@ PJ,

You say:

"Finally, I have to point out that if your kid is vaccinated then you should not worry if someone else's kid is not. If you are, you betray your own feeling (irrational thought) that maybe your 'protected' kid might get sick from the non-vaxed child; which is ludicrous if the vaccine really works. If that is the case, well..."

You are right, that would be ludicrous - if that were the reason we worry. But it isn't.

The reason we worry is that we do not want children - any children, or own or somebody else's - to have polio, or measles followed by meningitis, or being born handicapped because the mother had rubella during pregnancy, or be ill and miserable for weeks on end with pertussis, with the risk of dying of exhaustion.

We do not want this to happen to our own children and we do not want it to happen to other children.

That is why we worry.

Finally, I have to point out that if your kid is vaccinated then you should not worry if someone else's kid is not. If you are, you betray your own feeling (irrational thought) that maybe your 'protected' kid might get sick from the non-vaxed child; which is ludicrous if the vaccine really works. If that is the case, well..

Read about herd immunity and what it means when a vaccine "works." No vaccine is 100% effective. It would be great if vaccines were 100% effective, but they aren't. Even so, vaccination still slows the person-to-person transmission of infectious diseases.

When greater than a certain percentage of the population is vaccinated (usually somewhere around 90%, depending upon the disease and vaccine), outbreaks become much less likely. For one thing, the chance of an unvaccinated person coming into contact with another unvaccinated person drops way down. For another thing, there is much less of a reservoir of unvaccinated in which the pathogenic organism can be maintained. Either way, the people who cannot be vaccinated for various medical reasons are protected by herd immunity (which is why antivaxers manage to claim that their children don't get sick; they're riding on herd immunity), but so are the vaccinated, a certain percentage of whom might have developed inadequate immunity from their vaccination.

Antivaxers endanger herd immunity, because the lower the percentage of vaccinated falls, the greater the chance of outbreaks and even epidemics. Indeed, we saw this very phenomenon in the U.K. after the MMR scare produced by Andrew Wakefield's horrible science. Vaccination rates fell, in some areas below 80%, and the measles came roaring back. After having been declared vanquished in the late 1990s in the U.K., just last year U.K. health officials announced that the measles is endemic again.

Really, you have a lot to learn. Also, if you're not "antivax," then why do you parrot so many antivax talking points so ignorantly?

Come on Orac, which is worse? Cancer caused by a vaccine or the measles? Give me a break. Most of these so-called scary diseases are still around - they've just been renamed over the years. As far as the medical community not getting their cut from Big Pharma - that is a lie. They are in the form of "research grants".....let us not forget too that your beloved medicine and vaccines are what is truly ailing us all. You mean to tell me that you don't profit from the sick?

Let us also not forget that the side effects caused by vaccines have also been renamed too. ADHD or right-hemisphere brain damage? Right hemisphere brain damage may be caused by toxic chemicals. Alzheimers or an infectious disease of the brain? Again, one in the same and also caused by toxic chemicals weakening the blood brain barrier.

Our country is the most vaccinated - also the most chronically ill and mentally deficient. Coincidence? I think not.

The "flipper kids" you mention, otherwise known as victims of Thalidomide, were a result of inadequate testing by the pharmaceutical companies, for which compensation was later paid. The side effects of what was at the time thought to be an entirely safe drug were first - of course - noticed by doctors and useage rapidly halted, though not soon enough for the thousands of unfortunate victims. The same would be true of vaccines if they were harmful, but mountains of ("non-existent") research has consistently shown that they are not.

AnthonyK stated "The same would be true of vaccines if they were harmful, but mountains of ("non-existent") research has consistently shown that they are not".

Really? Where is the research that has been done? The latest CDC study that involved 30 something children? I hardly call that a study.

By the way - the research will NEVER be appropriately done by our government officials because if it is - that would mean our country would go "under" from all of the lawsuits. There would also be a lot of people in jail.

Vaccines are nothing more than a huge scientific experiment. It is a legal scientific experiment providing that informed consent is practiced. That is not practiced in this country - every doctor that I've encountered cannot even be bothered reading the package inserts. Therefore they don't know the side effects reported with each particular vaccine.

Hallelulyah - Dawn says something right! The US does suffer in part from an epidemic of the "mentally deficient" - they're the ones who spread anti-vaccination nonsense.

You mean to tell me that you don't profit from the sick?

If Orac was a real greed head, he certainly wouldn't be in academic medicine. And, last time I checked, treating the ill is a legitimate occupation.

also the most chronically ill and mentally deficient.

You're pretty good evidence towards the latter.

Sorry, but autism IS linked to vaccination, just in a way that many haven't considered.

Acetaminophen (which depletes glutathione) is often administered in conjunction with vaccines. Depleting glutathione isn't something you want to be doing when you are launching a powerful immune response via vaccination.

Studies are already linking prenatal and early childhood acetaminophen use with higher rates of asthma, which makes sense, since glutathione is critical for lung function.

This also explains why so many autistic kids have food allergies and GI issues.

Autism and asthma rates have been skyrocketing in the past 20 years...right after aspirin was linked to Reye's Syndrome and everyone switched to Tylenol.

More disturbing...there isn't a shred of scientific evidence that administering Tylenol before vaccinations is safe or effective.

CAN YOU SAY QUACKERY???

Hey Jen. Thank you for responding on the issue. You really must watch these guys....going through some posts above I soon realized that someone else is posting things with my name attached to it.

More disturbing...there isn't a shred of scientific evidence that administering Tylenol before vaccinations is safe or effective.

And this is why the scientific community should flat shun you crazies. There will be no end to your crank theories and no amount of data that will ever sway you from your religious conviction about vaccines.

That's, um, a really well constructed hypothesis you have there, Jen. [/sarcasm] How would you test it?

Maybe we could cure autism using NAC the way they treat Tylenol overdose. Oh, that's right, JJ Bradstreet and DAN! have already tried that. So hard to invent new quack treatments...

Wow, Dawn. You really went off the deep end there.

You know, if you had some evidence to back up your claims of, well, anything you say, a discussion might be possible.

So... Have any evidence?

Unfortunately, it's really easy to invent quack treatments - all you do is find a group of desperate people (say anti-vax parents of autistic children) and invent away. They'll try any old untested, unscientifid nonsense on their unfortunate children....except simple acceptance, of course.

Dawn: "You really must watch these guys....going through some posts above I soon realized that someone else is posting things with my name attached to it."

Which posts with your name on them are you disavowing? The comments that are contentless except for insults? The semistalkerish wish to "meet" those whom you're maligning? The profanity? Or just the posts that repeat antivax nonsense?

If it's all of the above, there's nothing of yours left.

Posted by: Dawn at: 12:10 AM - "Hey jerk, where do you want to meet?"

Posted by: Dawn at 12:25 AM - "You name it - I will be there no mater what..."

Posted by: dawn at 12:51 AM - "This is just the beginning..U r dumb"

I turned off this computer at about 9pm in my time zone, about the time you started to post these threats (I did homework, gave a ride to one kid and his friend, and watched some video with my daughter).

Sure, I'll meet you. The location will be the Library at the School of Medicine, on Friday about 1pm my local time. I will introduce to these things called "journals", and then I will take you to see our local Ronald McDonald House (it is full of kids who need herd immunity to protect them from infections). There is also a couple of historical cemeteries with headstones marking several dead children, including one from almost exactly 100 years ago that list six kids from one family who all died in a span of two months.

You will need to pay your own transportation and hotel costs. Even the local bus fare, because I do not pay for those parking garages, even if you do rent a car. Also you have to figure which School of Medicine.

This is not just any kind of stupidity we're dealing with, it's LUXURY stupidity.

Generally speaking, stupidity is a luxury. It's one that the rich can afford better than the poor, too -- which is why you get the correlation you see.

Well Dawn, I wish you the best with your family and your situation. I was hoping you would not be remarkably stubborn and willing to listen and have a serious discussion. There are folks on this blog that could possibly help you and instead your hostility only insults and alienates them. They could help you understand why in many ways, vaccines are an easy thing to blame even though in some cases WITH OTHER FACTORS involved, it could trigger autism in a child. My mom died of cancer, but hell, it was not from vaccines. It was more likely genetic, the fact she smoked, hormones she took. Many different factors played into her disease I am certain.
Understand that Genetics/Epigenetics play a big role in a lot of diseases and if you want answers you need to work WITH the medical community not against it. I know you do not believe it because you constantly state it, but the majority of health care workers are NOT in this for the money. We do it because we give a damn about people and saving lives and all the while we box with God while doing it.

MissFifi, I agree with you 100% that these things are genetic to an extent. The cellular damage is inherited and caused by exposure to toxic chemicals - which we unfortunately pass to our offspring. This is exactly why things are "inherited".

I tend to be hostile toward others who are all for forced vaccination. Vaccines are nothing more than an invasive medical procedure.

Dawn said "The cellular damage is inherited and caused by exposure to toxic chemicals - which we unfortunately pass to our offspring. This is exactly why things are "inherited"."

What are those that are from contracting and surviving diseases like measles, mumps, pertussis and other actual diseases? Do you have a link to a study on that?

More disturbing...there isn't a shred of scientific evidence that administering Tylenol before vaccinations is safe or effective.
And this is why the scientific community should flat shun you crazies. There will be no end to your crank theories and no amount of data that will ever sway you from your religious conviction about vaccines.>>>

Religious conviction? LOL...that's a funny thing to say to an atheist, but OKAY...@@

Sure is odd that there's such a paucity of scientific data regarding the safety of acetaminophen use with vaccinations, considering how widely used it is.

That's, um, a really well constructed hypothesis you have there, Jen. [/sarcasm] How would you test it?

How about we start by stopping the entire practice of administering unnecessary antipyretics to babies before vaccination? Unless you have a better idea.

Orac,

I'm glad to see Offit at HuPo, but did you see the comments? Bleech.

Jen said "How about we start by stopping the entire practice of administering unnecessary antipyretics to babies before vaccination? Unless you have a better idea."

Where is this done? I was always told to give the kid tylonol or ibuprofen after the vaccine IF there was a fever or pain. I usually did not have to.

Where is this done? I was always told to give the kid tylonol or ibuprofen after the vaccine IF there was a fever or pain. I usually did not have to.>>>

Unfortunately, this practice is all too common, especially in military hospitals. I am also a nurse, so I have witnessed it firsthand in other facilities. Some doctors even tell parents to dose with Tylenol before coming to the office, which is ridiculous, because Tylenol really needs to be dosed by weight, not age.

I do my best to try to discourage this practice when I see or hear of it, but I can only reach so many...

I'm glad to see Offit at HuPo, but did you see the comments? Bleech.

Oh yeah. I saw them. Unfortunately. There's enough burnin' stupid there to melt titanium. You may have noticed that I actually tried to insert myself in the comments. Or maybe you didn't because the "moderators" (censors) deleted them. I don't know. I haven't been back since yesterday morning.

Jen: "More disturbing...there isn't a shred of scientific evidence that administering Tylenol before vaccinations is safe or effective."

Can you direct us to any evidence that administration of Tylenol around the time of vaccination is any more risky than giving Tylenol at any other time? Or that your glutathione-lung function-vaccination-autism theory has any credibility other than "I'm-a-nurse-and-that's-my-appeal-to-authority"?

"CAN YOU SAY QUACKERY???"

Speak softly and carry a big reference, I always say. :)

"I do my best to try to discourage this practice when I see or hear of it, but I can only reach so many..."

Good.

The fewer people you half-wits hurt the better.

jen said "Unfortunately, this practice is all too common, especially in military hospitals...so I have witnessed it firsthand in other facilities."

Old saying: The plural of anecdote is not data.

Documentation please? Something to show that it is a common policy or recommended. Some data, some evidence, something other than that you say so.

I am not going to say either way where I stand on this issue, the only question I have is this-why is everyone so mean and vicious to each other? Everyone is entitled to their opinions and should be respected for such no matter if you agree with them or not. Maybe there wouldn't be such a controversy if people that are pro vaccine would not be judged and people that are anti vaccine would not be judged either. It is your child and your beliefs so who is anyone to judge someone else? It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong.

Documentation please? Something to show that it is a common policy or recommended. Some data, some evidence, something other than that you say so. >>>

Tell you what...why don't you google "tylenol before vaccinations" and see how many hits you get.

I've visited some really nasty boards over the years, but this one...from a supposed group of physicians and scientists no less...really takes the cake. No wonder parents are so mistrustful of physicians anymore. You have no one but yourselves to blame for the decline in vaccination rates.

Hopefully, your arrogance won't come back to bite ya in the butt someday.

I'm done here.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and should be respected for such no matter if you agree with them or not."

Respect is earned and maintained. Not everyone deserves and not everyone gets it.

"Maybe there wouldn't be such a controversy if people that are pro vaccine would not be judged and people that are anti vaccine would not be judged either."

there is no controversy. Vaccines don't cause autism. There's as much evidence linking them to autism as there is evidence linking autism and rainfall.

"It is your child and your beliefs so who is anyone to judge someone else?"

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

It is not just their child. It's my sister catching influenza. It's my tax dollars lost when a disease breaks out and a whole school has to be shut down. It's some poor kid who actually has medical reasons why he can't be vaccinated having to stay home all day because his parents don't know if his classmates are up to date with their vaccines.

"It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. "

yes. yes it does. and if you're really this goddamn thick you've got no right stepping into any discussions..

"You have no one but yourselves to blame for the decline in vaccination rates."

Oh yes it's their fault for making the information available to you and talking you throw the whole damn process. It has nothing to do with you spreading misinformation and being entirely unwilling to admit when your position isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever.

Julian, you forgot to address why are people so mean and vicious to each other? Any comment for that? Also, why do you think you are right? Pro vaccine people think they are right and anti vaccine think they are right-are you God? How do you know who is right?

Is that a concern troll, Stacey? 'Cause it lives are on the line, and it most certainly does matter who is right and who is wrong! We aren't judging people, we are judging the good and bad decisions people make, all due to love of our children. The love is what we all have in common. But it is our moral obligation to analyze the data and to judge which actions are harmful to children.

I can jolly well respect other humans as people while having utter contempt for the decisions they make and the stances they take.

Pro vaccine people think they are right and anti vaccine think they are right-are you God? How do you know who is right?

There's this whole thing called "the scientific method". Ever heard of it?

Wow, I am so disgusted right now. I actually am pro vaccine but honestly I am ashamed to admit it because of all the nastiness being written by pro vaccine people here. Like I said, whether I agree with it or not, screaming out nastiness because people don't agree with me is going to do nothing but make anti vaccine people be more unwilling to listen.

"Pro vaccine people think they are right and anti vaccine think they are right-are you God?"

There's no God, love. Like Sandy Claws, he's made up.

And I already alluded to how I know. There's as much evidence linking vaccines to autism as there is evidence linking rainfall to autism.

"Julian, you forgot to address why are people so mean and vicious to each other?"

I can't speak for anti-vax nuts, but the rest of us (the one's with the data backing their position) are more then a little tired of having to repeat the same answers, linking to the same studies and being confronted with a complete unwillingless to admit that their position has no merits.

Others, like my mother, are all to familiar with places where access to proper medical care is very limited and are angered by people trying to take her back there.

And a final group just likes to call idiots idiots. After all, if they can call a brave man courageous why can't they call a dumb man stupid?

Stacey asked, How do we know who is right? It's true, we're none of us gods-- but we don't need to be. Humankind has this AWESOME tool for learning true things about the natural world, and it's called science.

We may sound venomous, Stacey, because we have all been over and over and over and OVER this issue with antivaxxers until we are blue in the face. Just do a search on this one blog for vaccines. Read the Scienceblogs book club entries for Autism's False Prophets. Look at the Epiwonk blog. Look at A Photon In The Darkness. Or Neurodiversity blog. Or Science-Based Medicine. Or Neurologica. They ALL. GO. OVER. THE. EVIDENCE. So this is why we might sound snippy.

Let me put it this way-- if convincing evidence, using good experimental design and statistical analysis, were presented to me that vaccines were harmful, I'd change my stance. In a heartbeat. Ask any antivaxxer what it would take to change their stance... go ahead, I'll wait... the answer is nothing. Nothing will change their minds. We have been OVER and over the evidence, very strong, which indicates vaccines have NO connection with autism, and which indicates that vaccines have been responsible for doubling our species' lifespan in the last century. None of this changes their mind. They are religiously stuck in their faith-based rut.

This, to me, is indefensible. Where one's child is on the line, one has to be able to weigh new information logically, so one can make the best decision possible with the evidence we have.

Thank you perky skeptic for trying to be civil. Like I said, I didn't want to give my stand on which side of the issue I am on, I just wanted to know why we are treating some people so meanly for not agreeing.

@ The Perky Skeptic,
Just to add: The one study that started this madness by Dr Andrew Wakefield was completely discredited. I am not a wiki fan but this seems reasonably complete: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

How do you know who is right?

One word "Evidence" that plus the scientific method.

For example - when thimersol was removed for all or nearly all childhood vaccines atuism rates did not decrease.

As to why people are angry - wouldn't you be angry if someone wanted to reintruduce diseases that used to cripple and kill thousands of children because of their ignorance.

If you had studied medicine, statiscs, chemistry or epidemiology would yuo not be angry when someone with not education, who does not even understand basic logic such as difference between causation and correlation claims their ill informed opinions trum yours because they shout louder.

All ideas are not equal in the real world.

Wow, I am so disgusted right now. I actually am pro vaccine but honestly I am ashamed to admit it because of all the nastiness being written by pro vaccine people here. Like I said, whether I agree with it or not, screaming out nastiness because people don't agree with me is going to do nothing but make anti vaccine people be more unwilling to listen.

Sniff, sniff.

I smell concern troll. It does not smell good.

"Wow, I am so disgusted right now. I actually am pro vaccine but honestly I am ashamed to admit it because of all the nastiness being written by pro vaccine people here."

REALLY, Stacey? :) Are you really ashamed of the things the pro-science-based-medicine folks are writing here, though we face the likes of Dawn, who wrote "Fuck you" to us (the lot of us, at large, one assumes?) with what I think is considerable tolerance? :) You might want to re-read the posts in question.

Teh internets is a rough place. The people here are extremely civil!

I never said I wasn't angry but who does it help by getting ugly? It isn't going to change anyone's minds unfortunately.

We're rude and mean here because many of us care deeply about evidence-based medicine and won't be told by a bunch of conspiracist trolls that we're paid by big pharmeceutical companies to lie about our motives and evidence.
There is a conspiracy out there, and it's a conspiracy of stupidity to which Jen and Dawn and, yes, you Stacey subscribe.
This is Orac's blog. He does real medicine in the real world, and campaigns at length (often at great length) against all such fuckwittery. If you don't like it go to one of the politer blogs out there where you can find less muscular comments, or to "Age of Autism" where ignorance and pseudo-science are the order of the day, every day.

Stacey said with deep concern "I never said I wasn't angry but who does it help by getting ugly? It isn't going to change anyone's minds unfortunately."

Please tell me where I have been "ugly".

I am just asking for evidence. I am sorry that I cannot take someone's word at face value. If I am shown real evidence of their claims, I will change my mind.

In the mean time I am not happy with all the effort wasted to blame vaccines when more money and effort needs to be put where it is more needed: support for the educational, medical and transition to employment for our disabled children.

(I'd also like to know why you have not addressed the profane person who wanted to "meet" some people in person)

Stacey, have you gone over to the Age of Autism blog to ask them to be nicer? I can understand if you did and your post never got posted since they moderate with a cast iron clown glove.

By the way, I tried to be nice to Dawn, even after she some very nasty things. She wanted to meet me, so I offered to meet her at the library of my local School of Medicine. She just has to pay for her own transportation and lodging.

Chris, I have not read all of the posts here, this is my first time posting to any blog. I just read some of the posts and the overwhelming majority seemed very ugly and mean. I guess I live in a place where people can discuss things without being mean and vicious to one another. That place isn't the same as this one I have stumbled upon on this blog. I think with that being said, I prefer my "little world" and will nicely try to sway people to vaccinate without getting mean about it. So, I now say goodbye and good luck to some of you trying to persuade people to vaccinate by using meanness, I prefer kindness.

Perky Skeptic stated: "We have been OVER and over the evidence, very strong, which indicates vaccines have NO connection with autism,"

No, there have never been any studies conducted on the group of children who regressed after vaccines. None. Nada. Zilch. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Let us also not forget about Health and Human Services agreeing that Hannah Poling's autism was indeed caused by her vaccines. Then, they realized the big boo-boo and changed it to "autism-like features or rather a mitrochondrial defect aggravated by vaccines". Duh?

Dawn said "Let us also not forget about Health and Human Services agreeing that Hannah Poling's autism was indeed caused by her vaccines."

Wrong. She has a fairly rare and serious genetic condition that made vaccines an issue. If she had any other "natural" infection the result would have been the same.

Oh, Stacey... look up thread here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/left_is_right_and_up_is_down_…

And please, please, pretty please go tell the folks at Age of Autism to be nicer too! That would be so nice. Thank you.

Stacey: "So, I now say goodbye and good luck to some of you trying to persuade people to vaccinate by using meanness, I prefer kindness."

I prefer up-front antivaccinationists to concern trolls.

When the antivax beliefs of you and others like you can somehow magically be confined to you alone, and not hurt your children, other kids and society as a whole, then it will just be a matter of "who is anyone to judge someone else?"

I'm surprised nobody commented on Dawn's freaking out at the concept that people die during clinical trials.

Newsflash, Dawn: Clinical trials take time. They don't lock people in a room for the entire duration of the process, they just give them medication regularly - so some people are going to die, because the world is dangerous. And even besides that, a lot of clinical trials are conducted on treatments for diseases that can kill people.

I'm quite certain that the death rate of people in clinical trials for new cancer treatments are higher than that for the public at large.

Can you work out why?

(Here's a hint: the death rate will be higher in the control group, too.)

Oh, and in response to the concern troll: The antivax movement has directly and willfully caused deaths, and will continue to do so.

I feel perfectly justified in hating it, and growing quite irate at anyone who defends it.

HCN stated: "Oh, Stacey... look up thread here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/left_is_right_and_up_is_down_…"

Actually, HCN I wouldn't be surprised if it was you posting those comments and posing as me. Yes, I would like to come face to face with people like you. After all, I hope people like you responsible for poisoning many innocent victims with your toxic vaccines....particularly my family.

After all, I hope - sorry, HOLD people like you responsible for poisoning many innocent victims with your toxic vaccines....particularly my family. To say that I am upset about your attempts at forced vaccination is an understatement.

Dawn:
We hold you responsible for causing unnecessary disease and death. Children and people around them will die due to NOT vaccinating.

You have blasted everything and everyone here without a shred of evidence (beyond your magical intuition) so bugger off and try not to poison too many people with lies today.

Mikema stated: "Dawn:
We hold you responsible for causing unnecessary disease and death. Children and people around them will die due to NOT vaccinating.

You have blasted everything and everyone here without a shred of evidence (beyond your magical intuition) so bugger off and try not to poison too many people with lies today".

Mikema, please refer to page 7 on the following link titled "Transmission"

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf

I don't recall any doctor or nurse advising patients of this transmission warning set forth by the manufacturer. This is an example of lack of informed consent. How many pregant persons and immune compromised individuals were put in risky situations coming in contact with vaccinated persons over the years thanks to the medical community?

@Dawn: Read it. Not impressed.
I don't recall any doctor or nurse advising patients of this transmission warning set forth by the manufacturer.

The statement that you 'don't recall' is not evidence that it was not given or that it would have made the slightest difference.

The section you take issue with:
Transmission
Post-marketing experience suggests that transmission of vaccine virus may occur rarely between healthy vaccinees who develop a varicella-like rash and healthy susceptible contacts. Transmission of vaccine virus from vaccinees without a varicella-like rash has been reported but has not been confirmed.
Therefore, vaccine recipients should attempt to avoid, whenever possible, close association with susceptible high-risk individuals for up to six weeks. In circumstances where contact with high-risk individuals is unavoidable, the potential risk of transmission of vaccine virus should be weighed against the risk of acquiring and transmitting natural varicella virus. Susceptible high-risk individuals include:
⢠immunocompromised individuals
⢠pregnant women without documented history of chickenpox or laboratory evidence of prior infection
⢠newborn infants of mothers without documented history of chickenpox or laboratory evidence of
prior infection.

They are telling you to not rub your rash (if you happen to get one) on anyone. (No common sense required there.) They are reporting anecdotal evidence of transmission without the rash. Big deal. They mention high risk groups to avoid. Good idea, got it.

Merck also provides this:
Information for Patients
The health care provider should inform the patient, parent, or guardian of the benefits and risks of VARIVAX.
Patients, parents, or guardians should be instructed to report any adverse reactions to their health care provider.

Clear instruction to medical personnel to provide information. If you were not provided information, and can prove that, sue someone. If you can prove damage, please do so. Otherwise, no harm, no foul. All you are doing with this is making undocumented connections and accusations were no proof exists to connect them. Correlation and causation again.

Most adults can accept that life isn't always perfect and that shit happens. Sorry you are having a tough time and that you cannot accept that quite possibly NO ONE is at fault. What you are doing with your campaign against vaccination is undoubtedly causing harm to others. Shame on you.

Dawn spewed "Actually, HCN I wouldn't be surprised if it was you posting those comments and posing as me. "

Then ask Orac to verify whether or not it is your ISP in New Hampshire. It fits your personality when you post late at night.

MSNBC has an interesting article on vaccine safety here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28854955/

The article discusses a long term Italian study that addresses the thimererasol to autism (non)link.

Dawn, we have previously established that you are completely ignorant as to the definition of chemical and the concept of toxicity. Why should we accept your evidence free claims that vaccines are poisonous? What in them is poisonous at the exposure levels involved? So far, you have offered no evidence, but lots of emotion and anecdote.

As I have said in the past, your right to not vaccinate ends where it affects public safety. Go ahead and put your kids in a non vaccinating school and we will see a vaccine preventable outbreak all too soon.

When it endangers the lives of others, you no longer get to hide behind the false claims and lies of the antivax movement, whether you understand that they are false or not. The US has enacted quarantine for non vaccinated children in the recent past during outbreaks, and it will again.

This isn't to be mean or cruel, though doubtless you will interpret as so. It is in the interest of preventing a disease from killing or harming any more people, including your very own mewling brats.

Do you get that?

The quarantine that would result if you got your way, through spreading ignorance, would be in place to not only protect the population from the effects of a critical mass of non vaccinated individuals, but also to protect your children. The children that you, in a misguided attempt to protect from fewer potentially toxic chemicals than they would be exposed to in a glass of orange juice, chose to not protect through vaccination.

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And if you think that was mean, Stacey (I'm not a nurse, but I play one on the internet) or any other concern troll, when there are actual lives that have been lost to antivax bullshittery, goatse. That is all.

When it endangers the lives of others, you no longer get to hide behind the false claims and lies of the antivax movement, whether you understand that they are false or not. The US has enacted quarantine for non vaccinated children in the recent past during outbreaks, and it will again.

$HERSELF had a really nasty nightmare a few days ago:

It was a busy holiday weekend (schools and universities out, largish international visitor list) at our ski area, and she's called over to the day-care center to check out a sick child. On arrival she finds the kid with fever and a flat abdominal rash. She looks in the child's mouth and sees Koplik's spots. Wake up sweating.

If anyone wants to turn that into a screenplay, all we want is to be technical consultants on the ski patrol part. Locating it on the White Mountain Apache reservation would be optional.

I vaguely recall from Huffington's appearances on the old Politically Incorrect that she was anti-vax herself. The issue comes from the top down.

Dawn stated:

"Actually, HCN I wouldn't be surprised if it was you posting those comments and posing as me."

"Blackouts" - where people drink so much that they cannot later remember what they were doing - are a sign of late stage alcohol abuse. Get help, Dawn.

Prometheus

"When the antivax beliefs of you and others like you can somehow magically be confined to you alone, and not hurt your children, other kids and society as a whole, then it will just be a matter of "who is anyone to judge someone else?"

Yep. As I said in the more recent thread, your decision to not vaccinate is putting MY child at risk. Don't expect me to take to that all too kindly.