Dr. Jay and argumentum ad bradi bunchium

Remember Dr. Jay Gordon? I haven’t written about him in a while because, well, as much as he’s descended into anti-vaccine apologia over the last few years, he really has nothing new to say. However, apparently he’s been Tweeting a lot lately, and he hasn’t exactly been doing himself proud. Earlier today, one of my readers sent me an example of a Tweet by Dr. Jay that sinks to a new low of argumentation:

Jay Tweet  Comparing MN Outbreak to Brady Bunch

So…should I call this particular logical fallacy argumentum ad television or argumentum ad bradi bunchium? Seriously, Dr. Jay, this sort of argument is pathetic, even by your standards. Just because a silly 40 year old sitcom treated measles as a joke does not mean that it is a joke. It is not. Just because the majority of children who contract the measles recover, there is the potential for complications in as many as 1 in 5. These include bronchitis, pneumonia, encephalitis, and others. These are not trivial, and as a pediatrician Dr. Jay should know that.

Besides, The Brady Bunch isn’t exactly a font of scientific knowledge. For instance, I remember an infamous three-part episode where the family vacationed in Hawaii, where Bobby found a tiki statue claimed to cause bad luck. Once the tiki statue was in Bobby’s possession, all sorts of bad things started happening to the family, including a surfing accident and Peter nearly being bitten by a tarantula. According to the show, there was a curse that couldn’t be lifted until the tiki was returned to an ancient burial ground.

Yes, indeed, that’s the quality of scientific information featured on The Brady Bunch; yet this episode is frequently invoked as “evidence” of the societal attitudes towards measles 40 years ago as not being that big a deal, which is exactly the same argument made by Lisa on this Yahoo! mommy forum. I like this response by Hobbesie to such a silly argument:

I really hope that your answer is a joke, and that you’re just trolling the board. Using an episode of The Brady Bunch as medical evidence is downright silly. Next up, you’re going to tell me that all the forensic tools used on CSI: Miami are real. Ugh.

Indeed, complete with the multicolored Eppendorf tubes, the DNA analysis that only takes a couple hours rather than weeks, and the Minority Report-style computer interfaces.

I suppose Dr. Jay would use the “Hawaii episodes” of The Brady Bunch as an example of how people understood back in 1970 that there actually do exist tiki statues in Hawaii that confer extreme bad luck onto their possessors. That’s the quality of argument Dr. Jay is making: Silly, vacuous, and a non sequitur.

In fact, I would argue that Dr. Jay’s Tweet shows a disturbing coldheartedness. For a pediatrician to blithely dismiss ten cases of measles as “not being an outbreak” and then compare them to a 1970s sitcom episode as though that episode was evidence that people didn’t worry about the measles 40 years ago and therefore you shouldn’t worry about the measles now is despicable. For shame, Dr. Jay! For shame!

Comments

  1. #1 JohnV
    March 27, 2011

    Dr. Gordon before you get too worked up about other people attacking your character you should consider self-control, as you do far more damage to your “character” than any one of us ever could.

    Why in this post alone your own words you make light of people being hospitalized because of a disease outbreak and you’ve spoken sympathetically of eugenics. I mean you tried shifting your goalposts and backtracking about the eugenics thing, but considering the group of people who are primarily affected by this current measles outbreak alongside your lamentation of the lack of culling the weak I don’t know. Smells like you would have been in the forefront of the movement in the 1920-1940s.

    You’ve shown how scientifically ignorant you are and what a giant raging hypocrite you are. Those two are routine for you, but I figure I should include them while I’m at it.

  2. #2 Science Mom
    March 27, 2011

    Are you denying that VAPP and VDPV are not caused by pathogens or germs called poliovirus in the vaccine?

    Not exactly, the vaccine strain in OPV has to first revert to wild-type; it cannot cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain.

    See, easy to answer, you should try some direct answers yourself.

  3. #3 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Finally, I’m guessing you’re trying to say that there’s only a 0.5% genetic difference between the viruses, never mind that there’s probably a similar genetic difference between wolves and dogs. That can be a huge difference.

    No and don’t make a fool out of yourself. It’s the same pathogenic poliovirus which is so virulent it causes asymptomatic poliomyelitis in more than 95% of all the cases of poliomyelitis.

    Can you say hyperbole?

  4. #4 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Science Mom,

    Not exactly, the vaccine strain in OPV has to first revert to wild-type; it cannot cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain.

    See, easy to answer, you should try some direct answers yourself.

    So you’re denying the fact vaccine strain revertant poliovirus cannot cause paralytic poliomyelitis?

    Hence, it’s called VDPV to distinguish it from the wild-type poliovirus. In short, you and your cohorts just created another monster.

  5. #5 Gray Falcon
    March 27, 2011

    No and don’t make a fool out of yourself. It’s the same pathogenic poliovirus which is so virulent it causes asymptomatic poliomyelitis in more than 95% of all the cases of poliomyelitis.

    Any evidence for this claim? Because I’m not taking the word of man who thinks children won’t eat things off the ground.

  6. #6 AnthonyK
    March 27, 2011

    Dr Jay demands:
    Do not attack my character
    Why not? You’re a pathogenic narcissist. A rich celebrity doctor who makes (some of) his money telling his celebrity patients – once removed – that it’s OK not to vaccinate their children. Now I don’t, personally, go along with the idea that you are entirely money motivated, but I do think that you are vanity and ignorance motivated, the percentages being unditerminable.
    Why are you on this blog? Unlike paraphyletic id1id2 and foot-tread-match worth augie, you have a discernible role in life. Why waste it?
    You could be a really good doctor, no doubt you sometimes are (anti-vaccine shite not excused) and someone really deserving of respect if you tweaked your act just a little (well, quite a lot actually) and embraced proper medicine.
    Instead of which it’s just wank, blah, wank, blah, wank.
    (for augie the moron – yes, another fact-free rant)

  7. #7 Gray Falcon
    March 27, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    The germ theory of disease, also called the pathogenic theory of medicine, is a theory that proposes that microorganisms are the cause of many diseases.

    Nowhere is it stated that they always cause disease.

    Are you denying that VAPP and VDPV are not caused by pathogens or germs called poliovirus in the vaccine?

    Can you prove that they do? Because your word isn’t good enough.

    It’s just a simple yes or no like how it’s easy to say that measles virus causes measles infection, pneumonia, otitis media, encephalitis, SSPE, and even death.

    You’ll note that doesn’t happen with the vaccine, at least not at anywhere near the rate of the wild virus. That’s what we’re arguing.

  8. #8 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Rene Najera,

    Let me write slowly, that you may understand.

    A) One virus has certain antigens that look like another virus’ antigens. These viruses are cousins (like Th1Th2’s parents).

    B) The first virus is not deadly. The second is.

    C) Infection with the first virus gives immunity to the second.

    D) Genetic difference doesn’t matter so long as the antigens look the same.

    You could have summarized that in two words: Primary infection. The infection-promoting agenda of these vaccine apologists, like the pro-pox MDC, is real and science-based. Instead of recognizing this physiologic event, vaccine apologists would start screaming Blasphemy!

    See vaccinia virus and variola virus. Thank you, and goodnight.

    Vaccinia virus vaccine causing vaccinia and variola virus causing smallpox—should I be surprised at all? Just imagine if people had received a real variola vaccine.

  9. #9 LW
    March 27, 2011

    “Instead you throw your support behind another mindless “celebrity” wanking about making it law to exclusively breastfeed infants for at least 6 months.”
     
    I’m curious how this works. Suppose a woman cannot breastfeed, say due to prior breast cancer. Or suppose she can but it’s not safe to do so because of disease that can pass in the milk, or drugs that her medical condition requires. Or suppose she can but not enough, because she has twins or triplets. 

    Do we throw her in prison immediately and seize the child before it starves or its precious bodily fluids are polluted?  Or do we wait until the child is six months old so that the father, for instance, could legally care for it while the mother is in prison? (this gives the added bonus of a longer prison sentence since obviously every single instance of feeding the child so it doesn’t starve before age six months is a separate felony).  Would it be okay if she hired a wetnurse? (so wealthy mothers like those in Dr. Gordon’s practice could farm out their legal obligations while poor mothers rotted in the penitentiaries).

    I suppose if the mother dies before the six months is up, the father or other caretaker can let the child starve, feed it and then go to prison, or hire a wetnurse if the funds are available. 

  10. #10 Todd W.
    March 27, 2011

    @Jay

    Please tell me you aren’t getting your information from whale.to or the Organon. I found this link that has some stuff sounding eerily similar to Jay’s erroneous claims about measles.

  11. #11 LW
    March 27, 2011

    “Just imagine if people had received a real variola vaccine.”

    They did. The practice was called variolation, deliberate infection with variola through the skin. It had a mortality a bit worse than measles, but way better than smallpox contracted the natural way, so it was practiced. Vaccinia was considerably safer than variola, and by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.

  12. #12 AnthonyK
    March 27, 2011

    I’m curious how this works

    LW, I suspect this is something to do with Nestle promoting powdered milk over breast. Not obvious from Jay’s whibbling, but, if it were, a valid point.

    Luckily, most sensible women who can, worldwide, breastfeed.

    Not arguing with you, just trying to herd, or at least diagnose, stupid.

  13. #13 Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
    March 27, 2011

    AnthonyK says: “Now I don’t, personally, go along with the idea that you are entirely money motivated, but I do think that you are vanity and ignorance motivated, the percentages being undeterminable.”

    I’m not ignorant . . . 🙂

    You are correct, though, I am not making any difference here and I have lots of other things to do. Thank you for the clarity, Anthony, I will continue to “tweak my act” to reach a more receptive group of people.

    Jay

  14. #14 Dedj
    March 27, 2011

    And there goes yet another amazing post by Dr Jay where he thanks people for pointing things out to him, but doesn’t actually appear to be doing jack-all about any of it.

    Very classically narcissitic. Gives the appearance of change without actually having to admit to any fault or error.

  15. #15 LW
    March 27, 2011

    AnthonyK, I just get very annoyed with people who proclaim, “there ought to be a law!” without considering how such a law would work.

    Do we really to have Lactation Police kicking in the door in a no-knock raid because an informant claimed that Mary lets her five month old baby suck on an orange slice? Do we really need to make formula available by prescription only, making sure that there won’t be any leftover that might be passed on to a harried mother with an underage child? Is the breastfeeding problem in the U.S. really so serious that we need to devote law enforcement resources to it, or send women off to the already overcrowded prisons for the crime of quieting a baby by giving him a cracker to gum?

    And if the answer to the questions above is no, then the proposed law is just another stupid law that doesn’t get enforced and thereby brings law as a whole into disrepute.

  16. #16 Orac
    March 27, 2011

    How many times have we heard Dr. Jay say he’s going to leave, only to see him show up again?

  17. #17 Narad
    March 27, 2011

    You are correct, though, I am not making any difference here and I have lots of other things to do.

    Soccer doesn’t play itself.

  18. #18 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 27, 2011

    You are correct, though, I am not making any difference here

    Au contraire, Dr. Jay! You’re doing a great deal here! You’re serving as an inspirational negative role model and inspiring artwork!

  19. #19 AnthonyK
    March 27, 2011

    Ignorance, yes, stupidity no. And I would add “wilful” for emphasis.
    But ignore us, no doubt you have a (golf) handicap to improve.
    Best
    AnthonyK
    PS – and vanity? Bitch, ain’t it, and you so successful and all..

  20. #20 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Nowhere is it stated that they always cause disease.

    Can you prove that they do? Because your word isn’t good enough.

    You’ll note that doesn’t happen with the vaccine, at least not at anywhere near the rate of the wild virus. That’s what we’re arguing.

    Can you prove to me that you know what pathogens, VAPP/VDPV and measles-related complications and death are? It seems to me that there is a sudden lull of ignorance arising from these questions. Self-induced ignorance I guess.

  21. #21 AnthonyK
    March 27, 2011

    LW, you’re quite correct. Bring back universal breast feeding!
    Can I smoke dope first though?
    During’s difficult.
    Meh, experience.

  22. #22 LW
    March 27, 2011

    Quoth Dr. Gordon, “I’m not ignorant”

    Oh.

    So he knows that measles is less than 1500 years old; that it is not a symbiont of the human species; that it can be, and has been, quite deadly in underdeveloped countries; that it has a complication rate of one in five, and produces encephalitis in one in a thousand …

    So he knows all that and still willfully makes the statements he made above?

    Wow.

  23. #23 Gray Falcon
    March 27, 2011

    Th1Th2:
    You make the claims, you provide the evidence. That’s the rule.

  24. #24 AnthonyK
    March 27, 2011

    Can you prove to me….blah, whatever…and death are?
    Dude, you gonna die. Probably not because of measles – thanks vaccines! – nor through ignorance (not, disappointingly, fatal) but simply via the universal vector of death.
    What a shame.
    Thank heavens for etiolation!
    It’ll help me sleep tonight…

  25. #25 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    LW,

    Vaccinia was considerably safer than variola, and by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.

    If variolation causes deliberate smallpox infection, what did people get from deliberate inoculation of vaccinia virus from the vaccine?

    You cannot deduce that smallpox vaccine had eradicated smallpox when it didn’t even have any variola virus component let alone the vaccine promotes primary vaccinia infection.

    You are just speculating just like the rest.

  26. #26 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    You make the claims, you provide the evidence. That’s the rule.

    I have presented you such science-based evidence but I know it’s useless if you keep arguing from ignorance.

  27. #27 LW
    March 27, 2011

    As best I’ve been able to glean, Th1Th2 denies logic.

    Those of us who accept logic acknowledge that smallpox was highly contagious to those who had not had it and had not been immunized with vaccinia; that nearly everyone properly immunized with vaccinia (i.e., having produced a scar at the innoculation site) failed to contract smallpox when exposed even though they had not had smallpox itself (i.e., they were immune); that ring vaccination of the population around each smallpox outbreak in the late 70s was followed by the disappearance of smallpox in the wild; and that all of this is sufficient reason to accept that infection with vaccinia* gives rise to immunity against smallpox.

    Trying to convince Th1Th2 of this would be as pointless as Achilles’ attempt to convince the Tortoise of the truth of modus ponens, so I will not try. 

    * Note that immunization with vaccinia was indeed infection, but with a much milder disease than smallpox. 

  28. #28 LW
    March 27, 2011

    Hmm, I had a much longer answer to Th1Th2 but it got caught in moderation for some strange reason. The upshot of it is that rational people understand that infection with vaccinia (yes, it’s a mild infection) gives immunity to smallpox but it’s as pointless to explain things to Th1Th2 as it was for Achilles to explain logic to the Tortoise. So I won’t bother.

  29. #29 Gray Falcon
    March 27, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    I have presented you such science-based evidence but I know it’s useless if you keep arguing from ignorance.

    You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

  30. #30 herr doktor bimler
    March 27, 2011

    “To be fair, the equivalence between eugenics programs and measles vaccination is probably intended as irony.”

    Why would you think that?

    Just saying, if (Heaven forbid) I were to say something breathtakingly stupid on the Internet (not that such a thing ever happens to me), it would be tempting to follow up by making an even stupider claim — thereby
    (1) making my opponents look po-faced and humourless, too caught up with their obsessive concern for child health to notice ‘irony’ or recognise the fact that I was messing with their heads; and
    (2) provide me with plausible deniability for the first outbreak of stupidity, which in retrospect looks like it could have been ironic as well.

    And the implicit comparison between vaccination policies and infectious-disease eugenics is quite funny, though not really good enough for a stand-up routine. It is a false equivalence, but that’s not important for humour.

    Similarly, there’s an absurdist irony in arguing that vaccination policies are an unwarranted intrusion into the rights of individuals even if they benefit health overall, while also suggesting that the State should make breast-feeding compulsory because of its overall health benefit. Obviously humour, right? No-one could be that —

    http://drjaygordon.com/breastfeeding/gisele-bundchen-nutrition-expert.html

    Oh. Apparently I have said something breathtakingly stupid on the Internet.

  31. #31 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    LW,

    The upshot of it is that rational people understand that infection with vaccinia (yes, it’s a mild infection) gives immunity to smallpox but it’s as pointless to explain things to Th1Th2 as it was for Achilles to explain logic to the Tortoise. So I won’t bother.

    Before I can even go as far as vaccine prevented smallpox, how did you make such ridiculous claim (#210)that the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia when the vaccine is intended to produce vaccinia among the vaccinated?

  32. #32 BraselC5048
    March 27, 2011

    I’m going to go out on a limb here, but mabye the reason that that they said that the smallpox vaccine had errradicated vaccana is that vaccana isn’t around anymore? When enough poeple in a country had ben vaccinated, it went away. When enough people in the world had been vaccinated, it went away completly. Now there haven’t been any cases in years. Good enough for you?

  33. #33 herr doktor bimler
    March 27, 2011

    vaccinia when the vaccine is intended to produce vaccinia among the vaccinated?

    I did not realise that this thread had turned into a tongue-twister competition.

  34. #34 LW
    March 27, 2011

    I didn’t say “the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia”, I said “by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”

    You are correct to state that the smallpox vaccine caused people to be infected with the relatively mild disease, vaccinia. Once variola was eradicated, it was no longer necessary to infect people with vaccinia to protect them from variola, and so doctors stopped doing it (except in special cases like the military, I should add, because variola still exists in labs, though not in the wild).

    To recap, by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild, so it was no longer necessary to use vaccinia, so we don’t.

  35. #35 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

    Like I said before it depends on what side of Gray Falcon I am dealing with, that is, whether Gray is talking on behalf of germ-denialism or an advocate of germ-theory and vaccine crusades.

    You let me know.

    Just a piece of advise. If I were you, just let go quietly on this one (just like what Chris and Science Mom normally do) or be exposed as a great pretender.

  36. #36 Gray Falcon
    March 27, 2011

    Th1Th2:
    Why do you think I’m being two-faced? I stated my position clearly, and also told you, repeatedly, that your views on germ theory are grossly incorrect. Your repeatedly saying so does not change anything. So far, the only one exposed as a pretender here is you.

  37. #37 LW
    March 27, 2011

    You have evidence people are still dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox? Because that’s what would be happening if your claims were true.

    Like I said before it depends on what side of Gray Falcon I am dealing with, that is, whether Gray is talking on behalf of germ-denialism or an advocate of germ-theory and vaccine crusades.

    So, people are or are not dying like flies from measles, polio, and smallpox, based on the attitude of one commenter on one blog?  

    Wow.  Reality is more malleable than I realized.

  38. #38 Composer99
    March 27, 2011

    Th1Th2: the ugh troll goes around crowing victory all the time here.

    Now that you, unfortunately, appear to be here to stay, let me just emphasize that we will take your claims to have prevailed (as per @233) as seriously as we take his.

  39. #39 Composer99
    March 27, 2011

    Now that you, unfortunately, appear to be here to stay, let me just emphasize that we will take your claims to have prevailed (as per @233 235) as seriously as we take his.

    Correction as noted above.

  40. #40 Science Mom
    March 27, 2011

    Science Mom,

    Not exactly, the vaccine strain in OPV has to first revert to wild-type; it cannot cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain.

    See, easy to answer, you should try some direct answers yourself.

    So you’re denying the fact vaccine strain revertant poliovirus cannot cause paralytic poliomyelitis?

    Oh I’m sorry, was my answer too straight-forward for you to comprehend?

    Hence, it’s called VDPV to distinguish it from the wild-type poliovirus. In short, you and your cohorts just created another monster.

    Yes and? It is also very rare. Allow wild-type polio circulation to occur; that’s our choice. Except in your magical-thinking realm where only silly people allow their children access to disease or vaccines.

  41. #41 Dangerous Bacon
    March 27, 2011

    Orac: “How many times have we heard Dr. Jay say he’s going to leave, only to see him show up again?

    About the same number of times we’ve seen him use the following ploys in comments:

    1) Charge that posters who disagree with him are being paid off by Big Pharma and volley other insults at them,
    2) Complain that people are unfairly assaulting his character and insulting him,
    3) Respond only to insults and avoid substantive discussion with those who are posting questions in a civil manner,
    4) Blast others for being interested in subjects he would rather not discuss, and attempting to hijack the conversation to other matters,
    5) When he has no other comebacks and has been made to look foolish, flounce off declaring that he has better things to do with his time.

    The above tactics are standard in many Internet forums, especially those in which woo is discussed.

    I didn’t see any response from Jay regarding hazards to hospital patients/staff/visitors from his unvaccinated patients, and possibly from Jay (if he has not been immunized against influenza per the AAP’s call for mandatory flu immunization for health care workers). Maybe he’ll discuss this with us on his return.

    Sure.

  42. #42 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 27, 2011

    Before I can even go as far as vaccine prevented smallpox, how did you make such ridiculous claim (#210)that the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia when the vaccine is intended to produce vaccinia among the vaccinated?

    Note that Goofus has left out a very crucial phrase from post 210, the phrase in the wild. Even if Goofus’ idea that a vaccination automatically produces “infection” as any medical person would understand the term, and even if every single person in the world had thus received what Goofus terms an “infection” via vaccination, that still wouldn’t be a contradiction to vaccinia being eradicated in the wild.

  43. #43 Th1Th2
    March 27, 2011

    LW,I didn’t say “the smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia”, I said “by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”

    Oh you mean, “by use of vaccinia, variola was replaced in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”?

    Why? Because vaccinia is milder than smallpox and then you can just simply claim that smallpox was eradicated.

    Of course, you wouldn’t exactly say that smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia until they stopped deliberately infecting people with vaccinia.

    Once variola was eradicated, it was no longer necessary to infect people with vaccinia to protect them from variola, and so doctors stopped doing it (except in special cases like the military, I should add, because variola still exists in labs, though not in the wild).

    The USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for ~9 years, leaving the herd unprotected despite global threat of smallpox. Or maybe a vaccinia epidemic is a greater threat.

    To recap, by use of vaccinia, variola was eradicated in the wild, so it was no longer necessary to use vaccinia, so we don’t.

    Of course, the use of the lesser-of-the-two-evil principle is being applied here.

  44. #44 LW
    March 27, 2011

    “The USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for ~9 years, leaving the herd unprotected despite global threat of smallpox.” The U.S. was not left unprotected. If you left the country, you were required to be vaccinated against smallpox or you would be quarantined on return. I had to be vaccinated before my grandmother could take me to Mexico. I presume visitors would likewise be required to be up to date on their vaccinations.

    Also, vaccinia *was* a fairly nasty disease, though far less dangerous than smallpox, so routine smallpox vaccination was discontinued when it reasonably could be.

    “Of course, the use of the lesser-of-the-two-evil principle is being applied here.” Of course. It’s taken you this long to figure that out?

  45. #45 LW
    March 27, 2011

    Hmm, somehow I cut off the beginning of my comment:

    Oh you mean, “by use of vaccinia, variola was replaced in the wild so that these days no one is infected with either variola or vaccinia.”?

    That’s a reasonable way to put it, but doesn’t contradict my statement. The highly dangerous disease smallpox was replaced by the far milder disease vaccinia, at which point the highly dangerous disease smallpox was unable to replicate itself in new hosts, and therefore was eradicated in the wild.

    Why? Because vaccinia is milder than smallpox and then you can just simply claim that smallpox was eradicated.

    Well, yeah.  We claim smallpox was eradicated because it was. As you yourself have been at extraordinary pains to clarify, vaccinia *isn’t* variola.

    Of course, you wouldn’t exactly say that smallpox vaccine had eradicated vaccinia until they stopped deliberately infecting people with vaccinia.

    Actually, I wouldn’t say that at all.  Of course smallpox vaccination didn’t eradicate vaccinia; that’s a silly statement.  The doctors did, indeed, stop infecting people with vaccinia once it was no longer necessary to protect them against variola.  

  46. #46 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    The U.S. was not left unprotected. If you left the country, you were required to be vaccinated against smallpox or you would be quarantined on return. I had to be vaccinated before my grandmother could take me to Mexico. I presume visitors would likewise be required to be up to date on their vaccinations.

    I’m surprised you didn’t even mention the level of herd immunity from smallpox in the absence of routine vaccination for 9 years.

    Also, vaccinia *was* a fairly nasty disease, though far less dangerous than smallpox, so routine smallpox vaccination was discontinued when it reasonably could be.

    That’s being you as a vaccine apologist to promote smallpox vaccine. If this is measles which is also a relatively benign and uncomplicated disease, you will be screaming Blasphemy!

    Of course. It’s taken you this long to figure that out?

    For the greater good of evil? I’ll pass. How fortunate are the unvaccinated.

  47. #47 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    Science Mom,

    You claimed: Not exactly, the vaccine strain in OPV has to first revert to wild-type; it cannot cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain.

    You’re a great pretender of science. Read and learn.

    Is there a difference in a disease caused by a VDPV and one cause by wild poliovirus or OPV?

    No, there is no clinical difference between paralytic polio caused by wild poliovirus, OPV, or VDPV.

    Yes and? It is also very rare. Allow wild-type polio circulation to occur; that’s our choice. Except in your magical-thinking realm where only silly people allow their children access to disease or vaccines.

    I admire you’re infection-promoting agenda.

  48. #48 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    […]and that all of this is sufficient reason to accept that infection with vaccinia* gives rise to immunity against smallpox.

    So you accept the fact that you and the rest of vaccine apologists are the number one infection-promoters in the country?

  49. #49 Chemmomo
    March 28, 2011

    I can’t tell if this is de-railing the thread again or not, since Th1Th2 posting anything is derailment anyway, but I just have to say:

    Sciencemom@ 199

    Here’s a thought for you Jay, how about making it law to provide reasonable maternal leaves? How about making it a law to allow public breastfeeding everywhere? How about making it law that employers provide adequate pumping stations and breaks for breastfeeding mothers?

    What’s the html code for standing ovation?

    By the way, when Gisele Bundchen’s statements were first published, a commenter on SketpicalOB established via another published interview that Gisele had only breastfed her own baby for a few weeks. I wish I’d saved the posted link back then because I haven’t managed to relocate it today.

    And again: standing ovation.

  50. #50 Chemmomo
    March 28, 2011

    For those of you who didn’t follow Sciencemom’s link the first time, Dr Jay’s breastfeeding spokescelebrity is Gisele Bundchen:
    http://drjaygordon.com/breastfeeding/gisele-bundchen-nutrition-expert.html

    Don’t start me on what’s wrong with that.

  51. #51 Liz Ditz
    March 28, 2011

    I’ve been thinking about Dr. Jay’s various comments:
    Dr. Jay at #67, 3/25 Friday afternoon

    The hospitalization details are unavailable. I think that most of them are probably quite “soft” because most doctors are just confounded by this “new” disease

    Jay’s comment made me irate, but I wasn’t sure why.

    Later on in the discussion, Dr. Jay reveals that over the weekend, he has time to play two games of soccer, take his dog to the beach, and watch sports on TV.

    I began to understand my ire.

    In other words, Dr. Jay has leisure–he does not have to work another (or a third) job to make ends meet. He isn’t caring for a second or a third or a fourth child, or older family members. He’s not counting the money he has, and from that drawing up the weekly shopping list. He’s not concerned with the worry of doing the week’s laundry outside of the home (you know, are there enough coins for the washer and dryer, what will he do to keep the kids out of trouble while spending a couple of hours at the laundromat, making sure the family’s laundry isn’t just processed but not stolen)…

    The freedom Dr. Jay has to spend his time over the weekend suggests his assumptions about what people do on a weekend. In other words, like many =>middle-class folk, Dr. Jay cannot imagine the reality–the daily tasks and worries that people with far fewer economic resources that he commands–must manage.

    To get back to the subject of the hospitalized children:What we do know is that all of the hospitalized were children and we can infer that some were infants.

    Another thing we can infer is that many of the 11 confirmed cases of measles in Hennepin county are Somali..

    And what do we know about the socio-economic status of the Minnesota Somali? Here’s Omar Hassan, owner of Robland Home Healthcare.

    “The Somali community, we are new immigrants, most of them are low-income, their education is very poor,…

    It’s not that poor folk –even under-educated immigrants– don’t have the will or the desire or even the knowledge to care for their children ill with vaccine-preventable disease. It’s that they do not have the resources, and their children may have better care in hospital.

    And that is why high vaccine uptake is not just a public health issue, but a social justice issue.

  52. #52 LW
    March 28, 2011

    “I’m surprised you didn’t even mention the level of herd immunity from smallpox in the absence of routine vaccination for 9 years.”. 

    There were a lot of children born in those nine years, plenty to sustain an outbreak if smallpox had been introduced.

    “That’s being you as a vaccine apologist to promote smallpox vaccine. If this is measles which is also a relatively benign and uncomplicated disease, you will be screaming Blasphemy!”

    If measles had given protection against the far worse disease smallpox, then I would have been for it back in the days before vaccination, just as I would have been for variolation. However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not. There are epidemics of measles in the wild, but there have never been epidemics of vaccinia in the wild. This makes vaccinia preferable as a means of preventing smallpox, even if measles would have worked for that purpose, which it did not.

    “For the greater good of evil”. I haven’t a clue what you mean here. Smallpox was eradicated, vaccinia is no longer used (except in special cases); what evil has benefited?  Nearly everyone born after the Eradication is fortunate enough to be unvaccinated against smallpox *and* unless someone launches a germ warfare attack, they are also not at risk of getting smallpox. 

    “So you accept the fact that you and the rest of vaccine apologists are the number one infection-promoters in the country?”

    In the same sense that surgeons are the number one promoters of the laceration of human flesh.  Rational people see a difference between infecting with a mild, self-limiting, non-infectious* live virus vaccine to prevent a serious wild-type disease, as opposed to sitting back and allowing the wild-type disease to spread freely, killing and maiming as it will, just as they see a difference between a surgeon cutting into someone to remove an appendix before it bursts or a cancer before it metastasizes, as opposed to allowing a lunatic to run around slashing at people with a sword. Most vaccines aren’t live virus vaccines, however.

    *OPV is an exception in that it really was intended to be shed so as to displace the wild-type virus. If the situation is severe enough, that is a reasonable decision.  In the U.S., these days, the IPV is used instead, which is not a live virus at all. 

  53. #53 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 28, 2011

    However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not.

    This isn’t 100% accurate. There have been a few isolated cases of person-to-person vaccinia transmission, but all known cases seem to be related to idiosyncratic medical conditions which made the transmission possible (e.g., eczema.)

    In any case, the point still stands, whether or not it ever penetrates Th-troll’s reality distortion field: it is extremely rare for anyone to acquire a transmissible infection through vaccination.

  54. #54 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2011

    Chemmomo

    By the way, when Gisele Bundchen’s statements were first published, a commenter on SketpicalOB established via another published interview that Gisele had only breastfed her own baby for a few weeks.

    Par for the course – Jay keeps shooting himself in foot every time he turns around. He is Fractally wrong.

    He reminds me of this guy.

    I apologize for driving everybody’s favourite chew toy away with “character assassination”. However, I am sure he won’t stick the flounce. I suspect that fact he had no evidence for his claim about measles being beneficial was probably the real reason why he left in a huff (his favoured mode of transportation).

  55. #55 Science Mom
    March 28, 2011

    @ Chemmomo,

    Thank you.

  56. #56 Science Mom
    March 28, 2011

    Is there a difference in a disease caused by a VDPV and one cause by wild poliovirus or OPV?

    No, there is no clinical difference between paralytic polio caused by wild poliovirus, OPV, or VDPV.

    Again, yes and? OPV doesn’t cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain; it must first revert to wild-type and several generations must occur. That almost always occurs in immunocompromised recipients. So your argument that OPV causes paralytic polio requires the above-mentioned caveat. If you choose to be accurate of course, something which is evidently, an impairment for you.

  57. #57 Kristen
    March 28, 2011

    LW writes:

    Sickle cell *is* bad, no scare quotes required. It’s just that malaria is worse. But most people would prefer to fight malaria with drugs and environmental interventions, rather than condemning one child in four to the sort of misery that the sickle cell disease can cause.

    I have noticed that Sickle cell also doesn’t go away when it is not needed. I have a friend who’s grown son has Sickle Cell Anemia, he is hospitalized frequently with Vaso-Occlusive Crisis. It hasn’t kept him from getting Malaria, because he has never been exposed to it. What a stupid analogy. In this case I would think any reasonable person would find modern medicine preferable to the “natural” protection afforded by Sickle Cell Anemia.

    I just love the argument that severe complications are very rare. The rarity of a disease or condition doesn’t matter at all to a parent who’s child died or was disabled by such a complication (with SSPE the child gets disability *and* death).

    I lost my first son to an extremely rare (one in five-million male births), fatal birth defect. Following that I had two children with an ASD. What are the chances? It torks me off no end when somebody dismisses something because it is “rare”. It’s easy to do when it’s just statistics. Every “rare” something happens to somebody and in this case that somebody is a child, that should never be discounted.

    Please somebody tell me this new troll is a poe. Anybody?

  58. #58 LW
    March 28, 2011

    Which new troll?

  59. #59 Prometheus
    March 28, 2011

    ‘Way up-thread, in comment #115, “Dr. Jay” left another howler:

    “…here’s more red meat for you, the measles virus and the infection it creates in strong healthy humans probably improves human health”

    Of course, he hasn’t left any citations or references to support that “factoid”. After all, the leopard can’t change his spots.

    On the vanishingly small chance that “Dr. Jay” was correct (remembering the aphorism about the blind pig and acorns), I checked the world’s medical and biological literature on measles infection and post-measles health. Here’s what I found:

    [1] Wild-type measles causes a persistent immune dysfunction that lasts up to several months. In countries where food and water are often contaminated with pathogenic bacteria and viruses, this leads to a large number of children surviving measles only to die of later infections (usually diarrheal illnesses).

    [Note: the measles vaccine strains also cause a much milder immune suppression of much shorter duration. Some strains are worse than others; the strain in current use in the US, UK and most of the EU causes the least immune suppression.]

    [2] While infection with wild-type measles gives a stronger and longer-lasting immunity to measles, it hasn’t been shown to provide protection from any other diseases. In short, having the wild-type measles makes you better able to resist measles, but nothing else (and see #1 above).

    [3] Any apparent improvement in the overall “health” of a community after a measles outbreak is due to the death of those who have concurrent illnesses (both acute and chronic) and are therefore more likely to die from measles or its secondary immunosuppression. In other words, measles “improves human health” by killing the weak and the sick, not by making individuals more “healthy”.

    “Dr. Jay” then segues into a transparent attempt at distraction: “Look! Over there! Children (hypothetically) dying from lack of breastfeeding!”

    As has been pointed out numerous times, this is [a] an “estimate” by the WHO based on questionable assumptions and [b] largely due to the problems of contaminated water and contaminated/adulterated baby formula. In addition, at least part of the “breast-feeding deficit” is due to starvation of the mothers.

    Even though I hesitate to allow “Dr. Jay” to get away with his distraction, let me point out the the problem of measles is far easier to correct than the problem of breast-feeding. Preventing deaths from measles requires two injections in a life-time. Preventing deaths from “sub-optimal” breast-feeding requires cultural changes, replacement of numerous kleptocratic governments, improvements in farming and food distribution, land ownership reform, etc., etc…

    So, “Dr. Jay” would rather that we spend our efforts trying to correct something that may not be correctable, at least with the limited resources of this ‘blog and its readership. I suspect he exhorts us to do this in order to draw attention from the fact that he has – once again – made emphatic statements that are at odds with the facts.

    Not to seem uncivil or argumentative, but “Dr. Jay” is, in fact, ignorant about a great many things pertaining to infectious diseases and vaccines. This is not merely my opinion, but documented fact, based on the many obvious and laughable errors that “Dr. Jay” has posted on this very ‘blog.

    If “Dr. Jay” would like to learn, I’m sure that there are many people on this ‘blog who could and would instruct him. Unfortunately, his performance to date suggests that he would rather ignore the facts when they disagree with his beliefs. He is the embodiment of the arrogance of ignorance.

    Prometheus

  60. #60 Pablo
    March 28, 2011

    chemmomo – here is the link to skepticalOB you mentioned

    http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2010/08/giesele-bundchen-sanctimommy.html

    The link is in the comments

    I have to say, reading that blog depresses me. Not just the stories of loss and whatnot, but that there are people out there who think such crap that needs to be addressed like she does.

    It’s kind of like how it is in some ways very depressing that Orac’s blog has turned into such a ground for combating anti-vaxxers. The stuff you hear about them is almost beyond belief. No one can be that idiotic, can they? Then along comes Sid, augie, Jay Gordon, and the usual gang of idiots, and you realize, ouch. They can be.

    It saddens me.

  61. #61 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2011

    The stuff you hear about them is almost beyond belief. No one can be that idiotic, can they? Then along comes Sid, augie, Jay Gordon, and the usual gang of idiots, and you realize, ouch. They can be.

    Frank Zappa was right, there is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe.

  62. #62 Pablo
    March 28, 2011

    MA – since I have never heard it said, I am going to take credit for coining this saying:

    “Stupidity is the Dark Energy of the Universe”

  63. #63 LovleAnjel
    March 28, 2011

    @250

    The hilarious thing is, Gisele specifically stated she stopped breastfeeding for non-health reasons. I’m paraphrasing here, but in the interview I read she said she “didn’t like being stared at while I’m feeding my child at Starbucks”.

  64. #64 Kristen
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    Th1Th2 I’ve not been reading the comments very much the last few months, so he/she is new to me

  65. #65 Chris
    March 28, 2011

    That on is not a Poe. See these two links:
    Explaining that toddlers know enough to stay on safe sidewalk
    and
    Avoiding answering how one protects a 9-month old baby from measles when unknowingly encountering an infectious person.

    Enjoy the abject cluelessness, and being completely unaware she is full of idiocy. It is either a classic case of Dunning-Kruger or someone who really does live on Htrae (also known as Bizarro World, from Superman comics: a cube shaped planet where everyday is opposite day).

    And definitely a troll.

  66. #66 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    There were a lot of children born in those nine years, plenty to sustain an outbreak if smallpox had been introduced.

     

    What part of the USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for 9 years do you not understand? So where did you get your so-called herd immunity from?Keep guessing because you know that’s good for you.

    However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not. There are epidemics of measles in the wild, but there have never been epidemics of vaccinia in the wild. This makes vaccinia preferable as a means of preventing smallpox, even if measles would have worked for that purpose, which it did not.

    Well, can you think of any other vector that might harbor vaccinia virus other than the vaccine and a vaccinated individual? I know there was a documented epidemic involving 450 cows who got infected with vaccinia from a vaccinated individual. 

    what evil has benefited?  

    The lesser of the two evil, vaccinia. You don’t deliberately infect naive children just like that and to challenge them by exposing them to smallpox considering there were people who were not exposed to either viruses. That is so unethical and inhumane. Jenner did it.

    In the same sense that surgeons are the number one promoters of the laceration of human flesh.  

    In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    Rational people see a difference between infecting with a mild, self-limiting, non-infectious* live virus vaccine to prevent a serious wild-type disease, as opposed to sitting back and allowing the wild-type disease to spread freely, killing and maiming as it will,

    The wild-type poliovirus does not paralyze in 99.5%  of polio cases. You can also say that most cases of polio caused by wild-type poliovirus are asymptomatic but hey they were infected. Rational people advocate infection control; they don’t promote infection, they break the chain. You and the rest of infection-promoting vaccine apologists keep the survival of infectious diseases.

    just as they see a difference between a surgeon cutting into someone to remove an appendix before it bursts or a cancer before it metastasizes, as opposed to allowing a lunatic to run around slashing at people with a sword. Most vaccines aren’t live virus vaccines, however.

    After they have opened up the patient, what do surgeons do when they found out the appendix was apparently normal? You tell me.

  67. #67 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    Antaeus F.,

    This isn’t 100% accurate. There have been a few isolated cases of person-to-person vaccinia transmission, but all known cases seem to be related to idiosyncratic medical conditions which made the transmission possible (e.g., eczema.)
    In any case, the point still stands, whether or not it ever penetrates Th-troll’s reality distortion field: it is extremely rare for anyone to acquire a transmissible infection through vaccination.

    How about person-to-cow besides person-to-person transmission? Not possible?

    Vaccinia Epidemic and Epizootic in El Salvador

    An epidemic involving 22 persons and 450 cows on a dairy farm in El Salvador, in Central America, proved to originate from a newly vaccinated person.

    Well, this means that you are arguing from ignorance just like the rest.

  68. #68 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Ah, Th1Th2, you’re back. I’ve been reading that thread on Science-Based Medicine, and I need to ask you something: What’s more important to you, people’s health, or your being right?

    In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    I did after a car accident. Tell me, did a vaccine cause me to be hit by a car?

  69. #69 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2011

    Tell me, did a vaccine cause me to be hit by a car?

    Odds are the driver of the car that hit you was vaccinated.

  70. #70 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    Science Mom,

    Again, yes and? OPV doesn’t cause paralytic polio as the vaccine strain; it must first revert to wild-type and several generations must occur.

    Well, the effectiveness of OPV vaccine is measured in it’s ability to infect, replicate and mutate in the host’s gut and to be able to transmit the infection to others. That is the goal of OPV inoculation. Anything that would hinder these events would render the vaccine ineffective. Even a wild-type poliovirus does not always cause paralysis despite it’s known virulence. So what do you call a polio in the absence of paralysis? Polio.

    That almost always occurs in immunocompromised recipients.

    Who the hell would give OPV to immunocompromised recipients? You? You are creating a scenario which is unacceptable just to mislead others for your own cause.

    Furthermore, who would stop them from getting infected by poliovirus derived from vaccinated individuals? You? Whatever you answer, you’re still promoting poliovirus infection.

    So your argument that OPV causes paralytic polio requires the above-mentioned caveat. If you choose to be accurate of course, something which is evidently, an impairment for you.

    I hope that is just as easy for you to accept the fact that wild-type poliovirus also requires the capacity to paralyze. A typical fallacious approach used by many covert germ-denialists is to belittle vaccine-induced infection to promote vaccination while exaggerating natural infection.

  71. #71 Vicki
    March 28, 2011

    Let’s see. Vaccination is only a few centuries old. Surgery goes back to prehistory. I suppose on opposite world, this proves that surgery causes vaccination.

  72. #72 herr doktor bimler
    March 28, 2011

    the real reason why he left in a huff (his favoured mode of transportation).

    I prefer the better mileage from a High Dudgeon.

  73. #73 W. Kevin Vicklund
    March 28, 2011

    However, measles is transmitted person-to-person and vaccinia is not.

    Actually, direct person-to-person transfer of vaccinia was one method used in vaccination. Of course, this is less than ideal, as other blood-borne diseases can transfer at the same time. 19th century medicine wasn’t very ethical by today’s standards…

    How about person-to-cow besides person-to-person transmission?

    That’s the natural vector for cowpox and vaccinia (it is widely speculated that vaccinia is derived from cowpox, though it might be a closely related sister species). In fact, that’s where the idea of vaccination came from in the first place.

  74. #74 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    I hope that is just as easy for you to accept the fact that wild-type poliovirus also requires the capacity to paralyze. A typical fallacious approach used by many covert germ-denialists is to belittle vaccine-induced infection to promote vaccination while exaggerating natural infection.

    What? The wild-type virus doesn’t need to mutate heavily to paralyze people, the vaccine strain (no longer in use) does. True, is only paralyzes in 0.5% of all cases, but the vaccine strain has a much lower probability. Do you understand the concept of probability?

  75. #75 Jud
    March 28, 2011

    Gray Falcon writes:

    Do you understand the concept of probability?

    Was that a rhetorical question? 🙂

  76. #76 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    I mean, the wild-type only paralyzes in 0.5% of all cases.

    Th1Th2, take note: We actually correct our errors when shown them. You just continue arguing anything that you think up, even when anyone with a basic sense of awareness can tell they’re wrong.

  77. #77 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    I mean, the wild-type only paralyzes in 0.5% of all cases.

    Th1Th2, take note: We actually correct our errors when shown them. You just continue arguing anything that you think up, even when anyone with a basic sense of awareness can tell they’re wrong.

  78. #78 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Ah, Th1Th2, you’re back. I’ve been reading that thread on Science-Based Medicine, and I need to ask you something: What’s more important to you, pe
    ople’s health, or your being right?

    I have never known of a hospital that caters only for the unvaccinated. The hospital still remains to be a cesspool of sick and vaccinated patients.

    I did after a car accident. Tell me, did a vaccine cause me to be hit by a car?

    Even in simple logic many vaccine apologists fail big time. Vaccination is not an accident, it is intentional. You didn’t intend to be in a car accident or someone recommended you to do that, did you?

    Like I said don’t make a fool out of yourself.

  79. #79 Science Mom
    March 28, 2011

    Well, the effectiveness of OPV vaccine is measured in it’s ability to infect, replicate and mutate in the host’s gut and to be able to transmit the infection to others. That is the goal of OPV inoculation. Anything that would hinder these events would render the vaccine ineffective.

    Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

    Even a wild-type poliovirus does not always cause paralysis despite it’s known virulence. So what do you call a polio in the absence of paralysis? Polio.

    Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

    Who the hell would give OPV to immunocompromised recipients? You? You are creating a scenario which is unacceptable just to mislead others for your own cause.

    But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.

    Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

    Furthermore, who would stop them from getting infected by poliovirus derived from vaccinated individuals? You? Whatever you answer, you’re still promoting poliovirus infection.

    Oh that does happen but spread is very limited. Anyone against vaccination for polio is also promoting poliovirus infection. Pot. Kettle. Black.

    I hope that is just as easy for you to accept the fact that wild-type poliovirus also requires the capacity to paralyze. A typical fallacious approach used by many covert germ-denialists is to belittle vaccine-induced infection to promote vaccination while exaggerating natural infection.

    Sure, if you say so. The numbers are rather clear on the matter; you can just keep to your speshul world where your non-existent children can keep away from any and all antigens.

  80. #80 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Gray Falcon:

    I have never known of a hospital that caters only for the unvaccinated. The hospital still remains to be a cesspool of sick and vaccinated patients.

    There would be far more patients without vaccines, that’s our point. Can you provide evidence that vaccines are the cause of the problems? Don’t just give things that suggest it might be possible, the same could be said for evil spirits.

    Even in simple logic many vaccine apologists fail big time. Vaccination is not an accident, it is intentional. You didn’t intend to be in a car accident or someone recommended you to do that, did you?

    What the hell are you asking? I was responding to your suggestion that unvaccinated people wouldn’t need surgery! Try to understand how logic works.

    Also, you never answered my question: What’s more important to you, people’s health, or your being right?

  81. #81 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Sorry, the last comment was addressed to Th1Th2. Not that he’ll listen, he’ll respond to the version of me in his head.

  82. #82 herr doktor bimler
    March 28, 2011

    You keep arguing with Th1Th2 with the premise that he or she is using certain words like “infection” with a meaning that is the opposite of the way everyone else uses them, and if only you couch your arguments in the same terms then Th1Th2’s mind might change. The political correctness is admirable, but there is another way to characterise “using certain words with a non-standard meaning”, and that is “lying”.

  83. #83 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    pseudo-Science Mom,

    Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

    For someone who is ignorant about immunogenicity, you sure have plenty to say. You don’t have to doubt that OPV replicates and mutates in the gut because it does. The argument really is if this revertant poliovirus virulent enough to cause paralysis because they have the ability to do it.

    Read and learn.

    Science-based General Rule:

    The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing form of the organism, the better the immune response to the vaccine.

    Live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) strains can mutate and recombine during replication in the host.

    It is a fact. You’re contradicting it.

    Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

    So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

    But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.
    Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

    One word: Contraindication. Pleases stop pretending.

    Sure, if you say so. The numbers are rather clear on the matter; you can just keep to your speshul world where your non-existent children can keep away from any and all antigens.

    There are children who were not vaccinated nor been exposed to polio. What are the numbers/odds of evidence of an existing polio infection? Nada. Instead of abhorring them, you should be glad they are/were not infected.

  84. #84 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    There would be far more patients without vaccines, that’s our point.

    So where are these hospitals that cater only for the unvaccinated?

    Can you provide evidence that vaccines are the cause of the problems?

    This.

    What’s more important to you, people’s health, or your being right?

    Vaccination is, with its inherent infection-promoting nature, the antagonist of health.

    What the hell are you asking? I was responding to your suggestion that unvaccinated people wouldn’t need surgery! Try to understand how logic works.

    Why would the unvaccinated need surgery? Is it because they were unvaccinated? You don’t make sense and you know that even if you analogize it to having car accidents.

  85. #85 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    So where are these hospitals that cater only for the unvaccinated?

    There aren’t enough unvaccinated to require that.

    This.

    This what? Try again.

    Vaccination is, with its inherent infection-promoting nature, the antagonist of health.

    No it isn’t, and you have yet to show otherwise. If what you’re saying is true, why didn’t vaccines cause a visible plague of polio and smallpox. Are you incapable of weighing risks?

    Why would the unvaccinated need surgery? Is it because they were unvaccinated? You don’t make sense and you know that even if you analogize it to having car accidents.

    Here’s your initial quote:

    In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    What the heck were you trying to say? It appeared you were suggesting unvaccinated people didn’t need surgeons! Try to be more clear!
    Finally, you really care more about being right than people’s health. If you cared about everyone’s health, you’d realize that more people are in better health with vaccines than without.

  86. #86 Dangerous Bacon
    March 28, 2011

    What’s wrong with you people? While you’re dithering about vaccines, everybody’s keeling over right and left for lack of breastfeeding!

    Time to go out to the mall and proselytize.

  87. #87 LW
    March 28, 2011

    In a healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    What the heck were you trying to say?

    It’s a trick statement. Why would any healthy person *need* a surgeon? Maybe they’d want a surgeon for cosmetic surgery, but if you *need* a surgeon, you are by definition not healthy; you are sick or injured.

  88. #88 Gray Falcon
    March 28, 2011

    Ah, now I see. He was comparing immunization to unnecessary surgery. Of course, he still hasn’t shown that his analogy holds water. As far as he knows, he’s so brilliant, he doesn’t have to prove his ideas, because his logic is always correct. Unfortunately for him, nobody’s that smart.

  89. #89 Science Mom
    March 28, 2011

    pseudo-Science Mom,

    Nope. Mutations aren’t required and the vaccine has already been passaged to limit replication. The effectiveness is measured in it’s ability to do this thing called i-m-m-u-n-o-g-e-n-i-c-i-t-y.

    For someone who is ignorant about immunogenicity, you sure have plenty to say. You don’t have to doubt that OPV replicates and mutates in the gut because it does. The argument really is if this revertant poliovirus virulent enough to cause paralysis because they have the ability to do it.

    Ooo, name-calling, particularly from a person who resides in a fictional, sanitised land. OPV does not mutate to the point of causing pathogenesis excepting about 1/million doses. It is not required for the vaccine to work in spite of what you believe, something which you haven’t bothered to provide a whit of evidence for.

    Read and learn.

    Science-based General Rule:

    The more similar a vaccine is to the disease-causing form of the organism, the better the immune response to the vaccine.

    You should take your own advice and from your own link:

    Another way to produce active immunity is by vaccination. Vaccines interact with the immune system and often produce an immune response similar to that produced by the natural infection, but they do not subject the recipient to the disease and its potential complications. Vaccines produce immunologic memory similar to that acquired by having the natural disease.

    “More similar” is not implicit for “the same” as you consistently mistake. As long as the immunogenic antigens are present, immunological memory is induced. This is the case with all live viral vaccines, i.e. they have been passaged to loose their virulence while maintaining those key antigens.

    Live oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV) strains can mutate and recombine during replication in the host.

    It is a fact. You’re contradicting it.

    Au contraire. I specifically stated that OPV vaccine strain can mutate and revert to wild-type. I guess it’s hard when someone gives you an unexpected, straight-forward answer and doesn’t argue a particular point.

    Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

    So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

    That would be a strawman. There is demonstrable benefit to acquiring immunity to polio without pathogenicity.

    But of course; it’s all part of the global cabal’s conspiracy to keep lonely, housebound, childless wankers busy at their keyboards, feeling important so they are diverted from the real attempt at global mind control.
    Or yanno, it is unknown that the recipients are immunocompromised. Their bad bad mummies didn’t put their signs on.

    One word: Contraindication. Pleases stop pretending.

    It’s astonishing how much you can actually type without saying a thing of importance or accuracy. Stating that it isn’t intentional to give immunocompromised people OPV is a contradiction how?

    There are children who were not vaccinated nor been exposed to polio. What are the numbers/odds of evidence of an existing polio infection? Nada. Instead of abhorring them, you should be glad they are/were not infected.

    Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity. As an aside, your aversion to any infection or antigen exposure is very unhealthy and is not beneficial.

  90. #90 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    In the same sense that surgeons are the number one promoters of the laceration of human flesh.

    It’s a trick statement. Why would any healthy person *need* a surgeon?

    You’re the one who started off with the vaccine-surgeon analogy.

  91. #91 LW
    March 28, 2011

    Here’s why it’s a waste of time to communicate with Th1Th2.  It said,

    The USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for ~9 years, leaving the herd unprotected despite global threat of smallpox

    I answered, in part,

    The U.S. was not left unprotected. If you left the country, you were required to be vaccinated against smallpox or you would be quarantined on return.

    Th1Th2 gave the puzzling response,

    I’m surprised you didn’t even mention the level of herd immunity from smallpox in the absence of routine vaccination for 9 years.

    Well, I hadn’t mentioned it because it didn’t seem relevant, Th1Th2 having already stated that the nation was left unprotected because there was no routine smallpox vaccination, and I replied that the nation wasn’t unprotected because they were taking measures to keep smallpox out (which wouldn’t have been practical when it was endemic worldwide, but was once it had been driven back to just a few areas).  But who had gotten routine smallpox vaccination? Mostly children, who had to get it to attend school.  So I replied,

    There were a lot of children born in those nine years, plenty to sustain an outbreak if smallpox had been introduced.

    Th1Th2 shot back,
     

    What part of the USG rescinded routine smallpox vaccination for 9 years do you not understand? So where did you get your so-called herd immunity from?Keep guessing because you know that’s good for you.

    This response makes absolutely no sense. A lot of children were born in those nine years.  They were not vaccinated against smallpox. With that many susceptibles, the nation as a whole probably fell below the threshold for herd immunity, and certainly the elementary schools did.  Therefore the disease needed to be kept out, or there would have been outbreaks among the children.  Which is what I said.

    Yet Th1Th2 somehow takes some kind of triumph from this conversation. It’s really quite irrational.

  92. #92 Science Mom
    March 28, 2011

    @ LW, that is what Th1Th2 does; wanks endlessly and incoherently, then crows victory when everyone just walks away. We should declare a moratorium on answering her posts, take DB’s suggestion and go sanctimommy on all of those shitty formula-feeding mummies.

  93. #93 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    pseudo-Science Mom,

    Ooo, name-calling, particularly from a person who resides in a fictional, sanitised land. OPV does not mutate to the point of causing pathogenesis excepting about 1/million doses. It is not required for the vaccine to work in spite of what you believe, something which you haven’t bothered to provide a whit of evidence for.

    That is a predictable germ-denialist response to sell the OPV because of your love to the poliovirus. Now let’s see your other side being a germ-buster. There are four clinical types of poliomyelitis caused by pathogenic poliovirus; asymptomatic, abortive, non-paralytic and paralytic. Which among these types the OPV does not mutate into that is not pathogenetically caused by poliovirus?

    “More similar” is not implicit for “the same” as you consistently mistake. As long as the immunogenic antigens are present, immunological memory is induced. This is the case with all live viral vaccines, i.e. they have been passaged to loose their virulence while maintaining those key antigens.

    Now, you’re arguing from ignorance. Name a single vaccine which is not immunogenic? Also, can you tell me why the high titer live attenuated measles vaccine, despite of what you so-called immunological memory caused an increase mortality among the vaccinated?

    It’s astonishing how much you can actually type without saying a thing of importance or accuracy. Stating that it isn’t intentional to give immunocompromised people OPV is a contradiction how?

    Again, you’re arguing from ignorance. Why don’t you provide some evidence that OPV is not contraindicated among the immunocompromised.

    Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity.As an aside, your aversion to any infection or antigen exposure is very unhealthy and is not beneficial.

    Now you’re being silly. The last time I checked, the unvaccinated/non-exposed were being labeled as parasites, unhealthy, susceptible, non-immuned, unprotected, and the main source of infectious diseases.

    Wiki:

    Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.

    Herd immunity and herd effect: new insights and definitions.

    We propose that it should have precise meaning for which purpose a new definition is offered: “the proportion of subjects with immunity in a given population”.

    Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

  94. #94 Narad
    March 28, 2011

    It would not surprise me one bit, given Th1Th2’s demonstrated rhetorical tactic of concealing its idiosyncratic semantics until it gets a question that it “likes,” if there were yet a greater, likely metaphysical, “reveal” skulking around somewhere in the wings.

  95. #95 LW
    March 28, 2011

    Th1Th2’s thinking (for lack of a better term) is really bizarre.

    “Name a single vaccine which is not immunogenic?” if it weren’t immunogenic, it wouldn’t be a vaccine, would it?

    “Which among these types the OPV does not mutate into that is not pathogenetically caused by poliovirus?” What does that even mean?

  96. #96 Militant Agnostic
    March 28, 2011

    LW@259

    Maybe Th1Th2 is a bot developed by AI researchers who think that in order to understand what is required for artificial intelligence we need to know how to create artificial stupidity first.

  97. #97 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2011

    LW,

    Confused.

    But who had gotten routine smallpox vaccination? Mostly children, who had to get it to attend school.

    More confused.

    A lot of children were born in those nine years. They were not vaccinated against smallpox.

    I thought my question was clear. Where did you derive herd immunity from in the 9-year absence of routine smallpox vaccination during the 1970’s?

  98. #98 herr doktor bimler
    March 28, 2011

    if it weren’t immunogenic, it wouldn’t be a vaccine
    You forget the homeopathic vaccines.

  99. #99 LW
    March 28, 2011

    herr doktor bimler: ah, good point.

  100. #100 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    pseudo-Science Mom,

    Form the same source:

    Vaccines interact with the immune system and often produce an immune response similar to that produced by the natural infection, but they do not subject the recipient to the disease and its potential complications.

    Germ-denialism of vaccine apologists on one side.

    And then this:

    Although live attenuated vaccines replicate, they usually do not cause disease such as may occur with the “wild” form of the organism. When a live attenuated vaccine does cause “disease,” it is usually much milder than the natural disease and is referred to as an adverse reaction.

    Germ-loving nature on the other side.

    Let them describe what childhood infectious diseases are and you will find out their pathognomonic germ-busting character to sell vaccines.

    They are so full of it.

  101. #101 Narad
    March 29, 2011

    Opening the small mailbox reveals a leaflet.

  102. #102 LW
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2 perseverates: “Where did you derive herd immunity from in the 9-year absence of routine smallpox vaccination during the 1970’s?”

    I think I see where it’s going. Although I’m not am epidemiologist and never claimed to be, I do think nine years without mandatory vaccination would have allowed herd immunity to break down. Certainly the elementary schools would have been highly vulnerable, as I’ve already pointed out twice.  Th1Th2 thinks that this is an admission on which it can pounce: “Aha! You disease promoters have always claimed that if herd immunity breaks down we’ll immediately have an epidemic and we’ll all die!  But we didn’t! Busted!”

    But no.  If herd immunity breaks down, you risk outbreaks and even epidemics if the disease is introduced. If you can keep the disease out through other means, then you don’t have that risk.  We certainly don’t have herd immunity against smallpox now, but we don’t have outbreaks because there is nowhere for us to get the disease from.  

    In the 1970s, smallpox had been almost eradicated by a generations-long campaign of vaccination.  It had been eliminated from the Americas and Europe and most of the rest of the world. By diligent efforts, like requiring vaccination of travelers, it was almost completely kept from being reintroduced.  However, when it was reintroduced, there were indeed serious outbreaks, brought under control only by vaccination of the affected population. See the Wikipedia article for details.  Try not to look at the pictures.

    Clearly the situation of smallpox in the 70s and measles today is quite different. Measles is endemic in most of the world, including Europe, and has been reintroduced into the U.S. at least four times just this year that I know of (Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and New Mexico, though the New Mexico case, despite traveling through four major airports doesn’t seem to have infected anyone, thanks to herd immunity). 

  103. #103 Science Mom
    March 29, 2011

    Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

    You can call me anything you like; you have already failed when that’s what you have left.

  104. #104 Heliantus
    March 29, 2011

    The thingy reminds of my first contact with vaccine-deniers, almost 20 years ago. It was a book I picked-up in a bookshop (and hastily putted down again).

    In the real world, we have:
    – germs in the wild which sometimes cause diseases, which sometimes cause nasty health effects.
    – live attenuated virus vaccines, which generally do not generate the usual complications from the disease (although sometimes the virus unfortunately reverts to the wild form)
    – killed-germ vaccines, or vaccines made of part of the germs. Those have no risk whatsoever of giving the illness (unless the manufacturer got sloppy).
    To be fair, there are some risks of allergy, e.g. if the vaccine contains egg proteins. A bout of fever is also possible and should be watched for.

    All the above three could generate an immune response, and in most cases you won’t get sick twice from the same germ. But infection by the wild germ is carrying higher risks of serious ill effects. Generally much higher, by a thousand times.

    The author of this book just lumped all of the vaccines together. Which, of course, stacked all the risks of vaccines together and diluted the benefits. Way to bias the discussion.
    At least, she was not denying that without vaccines, children would get sick more often. But according to her, illnesses are a “normal part” of raising a child and “strengthen” the bonds between parents and children.
    I gave mumps to my dad. Fortunately, with no ill effect (that I know of). I think I would have preferred to strengthen our relationship by sharing other things than germs.

    Oh yes, some are full of it.

  105. #105 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    pseudo-Science Mom,

    You can call me anything you like; you have already failed when that’s what you have left.

    Because there are evidence that show you are, like this.

    Even OPV very rarely cause paralytic polio, in a proportion of ~0.0001 of recipients, as opposed to ~1% for wild-type. Your point being?

    I answered. So what’s the benefit of acquiring paralytic poliomyelitis? You tell me.

    That would be a strawman.

    Strawman? Are you serious? You’re not selling lotto here, are you? Everyone would want to win in the lottery. And the benefit of winning is humongous. But unless they play, they will have zero chance of winning. So if I had asked you about the benefit of winning paralytic poliomyelitis with those numbers/odds you presented to promote vaccines, you would know that some people don’t play thus have zero chance of acquiring polio.

    There is demonstrable benefit to acquiring immunity to polio without pathogenicity.

    That one right there is absolute germ-denialism. No need to explain further.

  106. #106 Science Mom
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2, you are a bore. If you want people to engage you, you can’t construct strawmen (hint, no one declared any benefit to acquiring paralytic polio), be so dishonest and well, downright incoherent.

  107. #107 dt
    March 29, 2011

    Dr Jay, tweeting:

    It sounds like your two children very much needed CT scans. They were done carefully and the benefits outweigh any small risks

    http://twitter.com/JayGordonMDFAAP/status/52206432162021376

    Give that man a banana!

    He finally seems to grasp the concept of risk benefit! Now if only he would apply that same knowledge to vaccination.

  108. #108 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Science Mom,

    Th1Th2, you are a bore. If you want people to engage you, you can’t construct strawmen (hint, no one declared any benefit to acquiring paralytic polio), be so dishonest and well, downright incoherent.

    It’s not strawman. It’s part of the benefit vs risk equation unless of course you want to be bias and deny that OPV-induced immunity can result to paralytic poliomyelitis.

    (hint: that’s the clue)

  109. #109 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2, if you’re going to talk about benefits and risks, try comparing the benefits and risks of a polio outbreak (still possible) to the benefits and risks of the vaccine.

  110. #110 Lawrence
    March 29, 2011

    Nice try Gray, but little thingy will just argue (based on its alternate reality thinking) that infection & vaccination are the same thing, so there isn’t a difference between an outbreak and vaccination.

  111. #111 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    True, you can’t reason with the unreasonable, but you can show everyone else how unreasonable he is. Seriously, he never answered the big question: If vaccination is as bad as infection, why didn’t mass vaccination lead to polio outbreaks?

  112. #112 Lawrence
    March 29, 2011

    Or better yet, smallpox outbreaks? If vaccinations are so bad – what happened to smallpox?

  113. #113 Jud
    March 29, 2011

    what happened to smallpox

    They don’t count the afflicted “infected” vaccinated, because they’re vaccinated, of course. And the fact that it hasn’t come back among the unvaccinated has already been cited as further proving the point.

    It’s all consistent in a non-reality-connected sorta way.

  114. #114 dedicated lurker
    March 29, 2011

    Of course, the Th thing also thinks anyone who is infected with anything knows the second they are infected, even in the wild with an asymptomatic period. Those people just have to isolate themselves. Thus everyone else can remain “naive.”

  115. #115 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Heliantus,

    The thingy reminds of my first contact with vaccine-deniers, almost 20 years ago.

    I do not deny vaccines in the same manner I don’t deny natural infection; they exist and they both have consequences. I can criticize both pro-vax and pro-pox people.

    In the real world, we have:
    – germs in the wild which sometimes cause diseases, which sometimes cause nasty health effects.

    Hence, they are called pathogens.

    – live attenuated virus vaccines, which generally do not generate the usual complications from the disease (although sometimes the virus unfortunately reverts to the wild form)

    Inoculum made up of pathogens.

    – killed-germ vaccines, or vaccines made of part of the germs. Those have no risk whatsoever of giving the illness (unless the manufacturer got sloppy).
    To be fair, there are some risks of allergy, e.g. if the vaccine contains egg proteins. A bout of fever is also possible and should be watched for.

    Pathogen parts.

    All the above three could generate an immune response, and in most cases you won’t get sick twice from the same germ. But infection by the wild germ is carrying higher risks of serious ill effects. Generally much higher, by a thousand times.

    Lesser-of-the-two-evil principle. What is so good about evil anyway? Just because you condemn natural infection (rape), you’ll promote vaccination (minor sexual harassment). BTW, both can produce long-lasting memory too.

  116. #116 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Lesser-of-the-two-evil principle. What is so good about evil anyway? Just because you condemn natural infection (rape), you’ll promote vaccination (minor sexual harassment). BTW, both can produce long-lasting memory too.

    You still haven’t produced a perfect solution, or at least, one that would work in the real world.

  117. #117 D. C. Sessions
    March 29, 2011

    If you know the history you’ll know that people didn’t “freak out” about measles 40 years ago they way they do now.

    No, they freaked out a Hell of a lot more because they had actual experience with it. I don’t have to “know the history” because I’m not only old enough to have had measles but have had recent conversations with my 85yo mother about it. She not only had it but was one of those mothers who “freaked out” in the 50s because her children had it and she knew from personal experience that measles killed, that measles caused pneumonia (remember: before antibiotics), that measles blinded, that measles deafened, and that measles caused brain damage.

    This wasn’t an abstract, statistics-that-happened-to-other-people thing in the 1930s. It was something that affected damn near every extended family.

    It’s like polio — both my mother and $HERSELF knew people who died of it and people who were crippled by it. I’m just enough younger to have been a beneficiary of the vaccine (I still remember, as discussed with my mother, standing in line at the local high school for my sugar cube). $HERSELF was one of the subjects in the original Salk trials. For which, if you read this, thanks again.

    Maybe part of Dr. Jay’s problem is that he never listened to his mother. Which wouldn’t be surprising.

  118. #118 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    You still haven’t produced a perfect solution, or at least, one that would work in the real world.

    Perfect solution? Didn’t you hear me say, For healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    Sorry, I cannot come up with an imaginary problem that would warrant surgical referral.

  119. #119 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Perfect solution? Didn’t you hear me say, For healthy unvaccinated, who needs surgeons?

    “Healthy” people can get sick.

    Sorry, I cannot come up with an imaginary problem that would warrant surgical referral.

    I thought we worked out that was just an analogy. Are you feeling OK?

  120. #120 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    “Healthy” people can get sick.

    So how do you plan to get sick? You tell me.

  121. #121 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    So how do you plan to get sick? You tell me.

    That didn’t even vaguely connect to what I was writing in any way, shape, or form. Seriously, are you OK?

  122. #122 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    If vaccination is as bad as infection, why didn’t mass vaccination lead to polio outbreaks?

    There are documented VDPV outbreaks in Dominican Republic and Haiti in 2001 and Nigeria in 2007. VDPV have also caused outbreaks in India, China, Madagascar, Philippines, Myanmar, Ethiopia and Indonesia.

    VDPV will remain a risk as long as OPV is used, because it is the OPV itself that creates the risk.

  123. #123 LW
    March 29, 2011

    “VDPV will remain a risk as long as OPV is used, because it is the OPV itself that creates the risk.”

    Which is, of course, why OPV is not used in the U.S. When the risk of polio was greatly reduced, the risks of OPV no longer justified its use, and we switched to IPV.

  124. #124 Science Mom
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon, you are nothing more than mental masturbation for Th1Th2. There is no reasoning, no logic, nothing that can penetrate. She will wander off when she realises she is ignored and has no audience. If Chris can do it, the rest of us can

  125. #125 Beamup
    March 29, 2011

    I second Science Mom. The Thing doesn’t have any sort of brain it is willing to actually use. I’d say it’s like arguing with my dining room table, but that would be insulting to a perfectly serviceable piece of furniture.

  126. #126 Lawrence
    March 29, 2011

    Agreed.

  127. #127 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    True that. I think that the surgeon analogy was enough to push her over the edge, there’s no way anyone can take her seriously now. Still, I can’t help pitying her.

  128. #128 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 29, 2011

    I’ll just mildly recommend once again my own policy for dealing with trolls: Never respond for the benefit of the troll. Only respond if you think that someone else might read it who might otherwise be confused about what to believe.

    Of course, it’s hard to do that with the Th-troll, because their ideas are so incredibly confused that it’s hard to imagine anyone besides Th-troll believing an idea like ‘people can catch a disease without ever encountering the actual disease organism; if you get vaccinated with the antigens from the outer shell of the organism, that will somehow infect you with the inner contents of the organism even though those contents are not there.’

  129. #129 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    That didn’t even vaguely connect to what I was writing in any way, shape, or form. Seriously, are you OK?

    You said healthy people can get sick and I asked you how. Some real world.

  130. #130 Gray Falcon
    March 29, 2011

    @Antaeus Feldspar:
    I can see what you mean. Seriously, Th1Th2 doesn’t know how healthy people can get sick? The same person who thinks killed viruses can infect people? There’s no polite way to respond to a statement that dense.

  131. #131 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    LW,

    Which is, of course, why OPV is not used in the U.S. When the risk of polio was greatly reduced, the risks of OPV no longer justified its use, and we switched to IPV.

    You mean when the wild-type poliovirus was replaced by OPV, the OPV spawned and turned into a new monster they called VDPV? Glad they stopped the OPV. And the IPV? an excess baggage.

    The wasn’t hard to understand at all.

  132. #132 Chris
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon:

    There’s no polite way to respond to a statement that dense.

    I’ve been saying that for a while. But I did falter bye trying to get her to answer a simple questions last week. I will just continue to point people to those threads and tell them to not engage her. She is a deluded crank and troll. Please ignore her.

  133. #133 Conscience
    March 29, 2011

    >Do you have any reason why shouldn’t I call you pseudo-Science Mom?

    For honest people, sheer decency would be reason enough, so no, there is no reason for you not to lie about Science Mom.

  134. #134 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Seriously, Th1Th2 doesn’t know how healthy people can get sick?

    Check #318. The burden of proof lies upon you otherwise you’re only arguing from ignorance.

  135. #135 LW
    March 29, 2011

    By the way, Antaeus Feldspar, I’ve never thanked you for the term “Protocols of the Elders of Allopathic Medicine”. I’ve never used it, but I often think of it while scrolling through troll droppings.

  136. #136 Liz Ditz
    March 29, 2011

    Breaking news from Minnesota

    Situation Update (3/29/11)
    There have been 13 confirmed cases of measles reported in Minnesota. Cases have ranged in age from 4 months to 34 years old. Five of the cases were too young to receive vaccine, six were of age but were not vaccinated, and two have unknown vaccine status. There have been eight hospitalizations and no deaths.

    I repeat what I said at #251 on the reasons for hospitalization.

  137. #137 dedicated lurker
    March 29, 2011

    Okay, ThThing. You’ve said that a person knows when they are infected. How does a person know this? When you walk past some asymptomatic person, do you then turn blue or something?

  138. #138 Dangerous Bacon
    March 30, 2011

    Good review of Seth Mnookin’s “The Panic Virus” in the New York Times yesterday. The reviewer noted that Mnookin’s background (not a doctor or scientist) may carry extra weight with some readers:

    “He hails instead from what might be called, sadly enough, exactly the opposite demographic: he is young and hip, got a good liberal arts education, lives in an upscale enclave and works in another, as a contributing editor of Vanity Fair. He is the father of a young child.

    And it is people of precisely this description who are slowly picking apart the safety net that protected their own childhoods, prompted by a well-intentioned mixture of arrogance, ignorance and confusion.”

    That last part says it well. In fact those are major attributes of fervent backers of woo in general (I typically characterize those qualities as hostility, ignorance and confusion). It’s a tough mix to overcome. Fortunately the non-ideologically committed can still be reached by calm reason.

    The only off note in the review (by a physician) references “skyrocketing” autism rates since the ’40s, without mentioning a key reason for that increase – vastly increased diagnostic recognition/diagnostic substitution.

  139. #139 Ken
    March 30, 2011

    While people are combing through old kid’s television for disease information, maybe they should check out other kid’s entertainment. Comic books, for example. A lot of the old ones are now being republished in hardcover collections, and still have the original ads. These included PSAs for polio prevention.

    I just checked Google, and I see that several are available. http://www.politedissent.com/archives/4301 is for kids. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dlanod/132348909/ is the parent’s version.

  140. #140 MI Dawn
    March 30, 2011

    Well, since the Thing wants to know why a healthy person might need a surgeon: my young, healthy, athletic cousin just was hospitalized for emergency surgery from a ruptured appendix. Thank goodness for surgeons, he is going to be fine. What did he do to cause his appendix to rupture? Or in Thing’s world, appendices don’t rupture for no apparent reason?

  141. #141 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    @Ken- I just saw those, and realized those are from when my parents grew up. They did tell me a bit about that, but one wonders how they slept at night before the vaccine was developed. (shudder)

  142. #142 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    Okay, ThThing. You’ve said that a person knows when they are infected. How does a person know this?

    When the person has identified the source of infection and becomes symptomatic.

    When you walk past some asymptomatic person, do you then turn blue or something?

    No. I always keep my distance or cover my nose and mouth when someone coughs or sneezes regardless.

  143. #143 JohnV
    March 30, 2011

    I think you just redefined asymptomatic to mean “has symptoms” instead of “does not have symptoms”.

  144. #144 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    MI Dawn,

    What did he do to cause his appendix to rupture? Or in Thing’s world, appendices don’t rupture for no apparent reason?

    Yeah so what did he do?

  145. #145 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    JohnV, English must not be her native language. Or she somehow thinks redefining words is acceptable.

    Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

  146. #146 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    John V

    I think you just redefined asymptomatic to mean “has symptoms” instead of “does not have symptoms”.

    Well, a piece of meat got stucked in your throat so you cough forcibly so according to you that would be a case of asymptomatic or symptomatic what??

  147. #147 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Chris,

    Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

    Keep arguing from ignorance Chris, you know that’s best for you.

  148. #148 JohnV
    March 30, 2011

    That would be a symptom of choking. Was that a trick question?

  149. #149 Narad
    March 30, 2011

    English must not be her native language. Or she somehow thinks redefining words is acceptable.

    Both, unquestionably. The latter is deliberately kept obscured to prolong the interaction. The former is revealed by the not-quite-there idiom with prepositions.

  150. #150 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    Of course, there is the situation she keeps avoiding: the one where the infectious person has left, but the airborne virus is still floating around to infect someone. She has not quite revealed how to protect oneself from something you cannot see.

  151. #151 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    John V.,

    That would be a symptom of choking. Was that a trick question?

    Yes. There are many causes of cough and and a cough can occur in the absence of an existing infection.

  152. #152 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Chris,

    Of course, there is the situation she keeps avoiding: the one where the infectious person has left, but the airborne virus is still floating around to infect someone. She has not quite revealed how to protect oneself from something you cannot see.

    You’re a germ-denialist on one side that’s why you keep on ignoring science that teach you to avoid unnecessary exposure to a known source of infection. I gave you the link ages ago and you dismissed it because you know it will embarrassed you.

    Check #32.

  153. #153 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    I read the link at #32. All it shows is that Th1Th2 does not understand the difference between “necessary” and “sufficient”.

  154. #154 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    I read #32, and it did not make sense, so I have not bothered with any of her other blatherings. Yeah, all she does is put words in weird arrangements and thinks they are profound. They are not. She is just a clueless troll, and please ignore her.

  155. #155 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    The trolling behavior was evident when I first phrased the question of a nine month old baby being exposed at a grocery store. She then answered by saying they are more likely to be exposed in a health clinic, so I rephrased it… her response was to avoid all health facilities.

    She did not have an answer to the question, so she manipulated to something she thinks she could answer. I dislike being manipulated by a lying troll. If she ever has children, I pity them.

  156. #156 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    I think what Th1Th2 trying to say in #32 was that she found something vaguely matching her advice, so she was right. I don’t think she’s really capable of basic logic.

  157. #157 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Chris,

    She did not have an answer to the question, so she manipulated to something she thinks she could answer. I dislike being manipulated by a lying troll. If she ever has children, I pity them.

    In fact I did answer your question long time ago. Check #322 http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/gobsmacked_by_germ_theory_denialism_agai.php#comments

    Keep ignoring Chris, just keep ignoring.

  158. #158 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Th1Th2, did you know there are sick people outside of hospitals? Seriously, you’re in the running for “Dumbest person alive.”

  159. #159 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    Except, Gray Falcon, she had manipulated me to making the scenario something that she kind of had an answer to. So if I was not ignoring her, I would ask the the question in its original form, and not bow to her silly demands: “How is a parent with a nine-month old child supposed to know that an infected child was at the grocery store just an hour before?”

    See, it is not in a health clinic, nor does one have to see if someone is either symptomatic or asymptomatic. Yet, she failed to answer that simple question, and claims I am a germ denier. Definitely a troll.

  160. #160 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Th1Th2, did you know there are sick people outside of hospitals? Seriously, you’re in the running for “Dumbest person alive.”

    And avoiding these sick people doesn’t make sense to you and Chris, then both of you get the reward. Hands down. No contest.

  161. #161 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Take note, Th1Th2 has actually noted that diseases can be both asymptomatic and contagious, but still thinks it’s possible to avoid sick people. Seriously. It’s clear at this point she only cares about everything thinking she’s right.

  162. #162 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    Except those of us who live on Earth instead of Htrae all realize she is completely clueless.

    If anyone in the future wishes to engage her, just ask this one question until she gives a sensible answer:
    “How is a parent with a nine-month old child supposed to know that a measles infectious person was at the grocery store just an hour before?”

    Do not allow her to change the question or terms.

  163. #163 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Chris,

    How is a parent with a nine-month old child supposed to know that an infected child was at the grocery store just an hour before?

    Stick with science Chris and stop being superstitious and paranoid.

    Again, you’re arguing from ignorance. I cannot prove that fairies exist, can you?

    And even if the measles virus survived, transmission cannot be proven.

    Survival of measles virus in droplet nuclei for over 2 hours has been demonstrated in laboratory studies (5). Although the exact mode of transmission in this instance cannot be proven, transmission via fomites seems less likely than airborne transmission because measles virus is believed to survive only for a short time on dry surfaces (6).

  164. #164 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Interesting. If the police are unable to determine if a man died by suicide or homicide, does that mean he’s still alive?

  165. #165 Ken
    March 30, 2011

    I haven’t read all the comments here, much less from other posts, but is Th1Th2 perhaps a Christian Scientist? One of their beliefs is that all illness is due to sin or fear – in other words, it’s because of something the person did, not an external agent. I am particularly struck by the appendicitis remarks, e.g. #344.

  166. #166 Enkidu
    March 30, 2011

    I think Th1Th2 and her thread hijack scared Dr. Jay away.

  167. #167 LW
    March 30, 2011

    In Japan, there were just recently a whole lot of healthy people who suddenly found themselves in need of medical care. I doubt their vaccination status had much to do with their injuries.

  168. #168 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Interesting. If the police are unable to determine if a man died by suicide or homicide, does that mean he’s still alive?

    That didn’t even vaguely connect to what I was writing in any way, shape, or form. Seriously, are you OK?

    Thanks Gray.

  169. #169 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 30, 2011
    Or it is because she actually lives on Htrae, where it is opposite day every day! So obviously symptomatic means no symptoms and asymptomatic means there are symptoms (like coughing, etc)! Got it?

    Keep arguing from ignorance Chris, you know that’s best for you.

    It probably won’t come as a surprise to anyone that this phrase Goofus keeps using, “arguing from ignorance,” does not mean what Goofus pretends it means.

    “Argument from ignorance” is a fallacy in which an arguer asserts that something is true, not because there is any evidence that it is true, but because there is insufficient proof (at least in the mind of the fallacious arguer) that it isn’t true. The classic example is the creationist argument “I can’t imagine how biological phenomenon X could have evolved. Therefore, because I lack an answer to how it could have happen, there is no answer and it must have been done by special creation.”

    Now, Goofus committed the fallacy known as ignoratio elenchi (giving an answer to a question other than the one that was asked) by responding to the question ‘how does [an asymptomatic person] know that they’re infected?’ with the answer ‘when they start showing symptoms.’ Chris caught Goofus at it, and called them on it.

    What’s the relation between Chris calling Goofus on their ignoratio elenchi and Goofus claiming that Chris is thereby committing “argument from ignorance”? Simple: There isn’t one.

  170. #170 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Actually, there was a connection. The article you posted did not say that transmission was not proven, only the means of transmission (two were possible) was not proven. Unlike you, my analogies can make sense. And really, try not just to pick out the four words that support your claims.

  171. #171 Th1Th2
    March 30, 2011

    Antaeus ,

    Argument from ignorance” is a fallacy in which an arguer asserts that something is true, not because there is any evidence that it is true, but because there is insufficient proof (at least in the mind of the fallacious arguer) that it isn’t true. The classic example is the creationist argument “I can’t imagine how biological phenomenon X could have evolved. Therefore, because I lack an answer to how it could have happen, there is no answer and it must have been done by special creation.”

    Nah. It’s very clear Chris was arguing from ignorance but she kept pretending she didn’t know the answer.

    Now, Goofus committed the fallacy known as ignoratio elenchi (giving an answer to a question other than the one that was asked) by responding to the question ‘how does [an asymptomatic person] know that they’re infected?’ with the answer ‘when they start showing symptoms.’ Chris caught Goofus at it, and called them on it.

    Now you’re not only a Goofus but also dyslexic if you keep inserting things that weren’t asked in the first place.

  172. #172 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 30, 2011

    What’s the relation between Chris calling Goofus on their ignoratio elenchi and Goofus claiming that Chris is thereby committing “argument from ignorance”? Simple: There isn’t one.

  173. #173 Sid Offit
    April 12, 2011

    @Mike Ralston

    So the government has the power to tell a sick man “You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care” and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man’s food and medical care?

    There’s a difference between power and the moral authority to do something. Seems the state has the “power to do just about anything. Anyway, the government has the right to tell a man not to rob a bank because it violates the rights of others just as it can act to stop one from knowingly acting in a way in which one could expect to transmit an illness and harm others.
    —————

    Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?

    Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

    This sick man should have prepared for a potential illness before becoming ill. But then you’ll say affordable health care is impossible to obtain. The solution is to remove the government from the equation so this person doesn’t have to buy a policy with coverage he really doesn’t need or want.

    It’s wrong for the government to intervene in the health care market in the first place and it’s wrong to take the of resources one person to pay for the care of another

    The moral solution would be to start unwinding the governments role while continuing to provide care for the truly needy.

    And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation.

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