One of the major tactics of the anti-vaccine movement has been a disingenuous demand for more “informed consent.” Of course, their idea of “informed consent” is anything but informed. Indeed, I have referred to it as “misinformed consent,” because what the anti-vaccine movement does is a pathetic parody of the “informed” part of informed consent. The reason is because the anti-vaccine movement exaggerates the risks of vaccination beyond what science supports, and it does it intentionally. Autism, asthma, autoimmune disease, neurodevelopmental disorders, all of these have been blamed on vaccination without any good scientific evidence to support a link between any of these conditions and vaccination. If in fact these conditions were linked with vaccination at anywhere near the rate that the antivaccine movement claims they are, anti-vaccinationists might have a point, but they aren’t and they don’t.

Instead, they frighten parents into thinking that by vaccinating their children they’re playing a game akin to Russian Roulette. Worse, they persuade parents of children with autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders that they are somehow responsible for their child’s disability. Indeed, sometimes the guilt is palpable in some parents who have come to believe that vaccines cause autism. They really do believe that they are responsible for the plight of their children. That belief is based on misinformation and the attribution of risks to vaccines that are not supported by any good science or convincing evidence, but they really do believe it, and they really suffer because of that belief. Even a clear Plexiglass box of blinking lights like Orac can’t help but be moved, even as he realizes that the source of the guilt these parents feel is not supported by science, but rather by anecdote, confusing correlation with causation, and confirmation bias.

Be that as it may, a common technique of anti-vaccinationists is to demand extreme forms of misinformed consent whereby they demand that pediatricians present parents with various versions of forms to sign or to demand that pediatricians guarantee that there will be no vaccine complications and accept liability if there are, such as this Warranty of Vaccine Safety. Of course, such warranties are nothing more than a ploy to intimidate pediatricians by trying to force them to promise something that can never be guaranteed, namely absolute safety, which is why I like the tack that the legislature in Washington appears to be taking:

Worried by outbreaks of contagious diseases such as measles and whooping cough, public-health officials are supporting a proposal to make it more difficult for parents to avoid school-entry immunization requirements.

The measure under consideration has drawn strong support in both houses of the Legislature and faced little opposition until recently, when vaccine-resisting parents mobilized to pack hearings and lobby lawmakers.

The proposal would require parents who seek exemption from current state law to submit proof that a health provider has informed them of the risks and benefits of immunization.

Currently, parents can sign a form themselves to claim religious, philosophical or personal reasons for refusing to immunize their children before enrolling them in school or day care.

Public-health officials say the bill is needed because immunization rates are falling, parents are receiving sketchy information from the Internet and the state has made it too convenient for them to skip immunization.

Now there’s an idea! Fight fire with fire! If parents want an exemption to allow them to skip vaccinations for their children and thus decrease herd immunity, producing a concomitant increase in the risk of outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases, then make sure their decision is based on solid, science-based information. If they want to jeopardize others by refusing to vaccinate their children, then make them justify it. As is ointed out in the article, convenience is not an excuse for not vaccinating, and countering misinformation is critical. Personally, I’d go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child. Of course, the anti-vaccine movement is all for personal responsibility, except when it isn’t, if you know what I mean. Anti-vaccinationists are all for accountability, except when that accountability is directed at them when the consequences of their refusal to vaccinate turns ugly. Then, suddenly, it’s not their fault:

“This bill implies that I am reckless, irresponsible and uninformed, when in fact that is the complete opposite,” bristled Sarah Rowe, a Bainbridge Island mother who attended a Senate committee hearing last week with her 5-year-old daughter, whose neurological disorder was caused by a vaccine, according to Rowe.

Michael Belkin, also from Bainbridge, told the committee that as a statistics-savvy financial analyst, he doesn’t want to listen to “some doctor’s propaganda.”

To Sarah Rowe, I’d say: Yes, you are reckless, irresponsible, and misinformed. In fact, if you and parents like you weren’t reckless, irresponsible, and misinformed, a bill like this wouldn’t be necessary. But you are, and it is. Ditto Michael Belkin. Perhaps you remember Michael Belkin? I do. Michael Belkin is the execrable musician who penned such mind-meltingly bad songs such as “Vaccine Gestapo” and “Get Your Mandates Out of My Body.” Bad music, bad science, Belkin’s got it all, all wrapped up into a mind-meltingly stupid songs that even Andrew Wakefield looked uncomfortable singing along with.

Here’s hoping this bill passes, although I’m not optimistic. The reason I’m not so optimistic is because Washington already has one of the highest rate of vaccine exemptions in the country and, more importantly, because the anti-vaccine movement has gotten wind of it:

Ezra Eickmeyer, representing the National Vaccine Information Center, an anti-vaccine group, noted a 2001 survey in which 23 percent of pediatricians said they “always” or “sometimes” tell vaccine-refusing parents they no longer can be the child’s doctor.

Eickmeyer says that as though it were a bad thing. At least the journalist accurately described the NVIC as an “anti-vaccine” group. All too often it manages to get a pass, being described as a “vaccine safety” group or a “vaccine safety watchdog” when it is nothing of the sort.

Personally, I like the idea behind the law being proposed. If anti-vaccinationists are going to weaken herd immunity and endanger the children of others through their misinformed, pseudoscience-informed beliefs, then the least society should do is to make them jump through a few more hoops in order to claim their precious vaccine exemptions.

Comments

  1. #1 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    March 31, 2011

    @lilady: It was me biting my nails at your awesome background. Augie’s playing down of your experience and expertise is typical of an uneducated filthy little mirrenpapana with the sort of background he has. He’s not got back to you on his educational background because he has none. His employment background is also non-existent: I cannot imagine anyone but the most suicidally stupid employer who wanted to lost his/her business actually wanting to employ him. Augie would, had he been born in Finland, have been placed for life in one of the many keskuslaitos places that Finland still proudly runs (fuck knows why… they’re horrible places).

    “I’m still waiting for an answer from Augie ‘Where did YOU go to school’ and his history of gainful employment. I’m assuming that he is on the public dole, with health insurance paid for by my tax dollars.”

    Your assumption would be correct.

  2. #2 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Sauceress:

    Well that certainly puts most of his current fan club out of favour then.

    Only the more aggressive and visible churches, really. Most of us Christians aren’t like augustine.

  3. #3 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Falcon, who is your master?

  4. #4 JohnV
    March 31, 2011

    Augustine on what basis do you choose to apply “Jesus didn’t do X” to justify your actions?

  5. #5 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Falcon, who is your master?

    The God of love and truth. Your god’s more like the heathens: Manipulated by spells and rituals, and with no real moral or ethical obligations to his followers.

    Oh, and anyone who points out the book of Leviticus, let me note that the book is written in the form of a legal contract. I half suspect most of the complex codes are the equivalent of a rock star asking for a bowl of yellow chocolate drops before a concert: Are they actually reading the contract closely. I’m not an Orthodox Jew, so I’m not really part of that covenant. People who insist on following the ritual laws (no tattoos, no homosexuality) of the ancient Jews remind me a bit of Newagers who want to join in the Sun Dance.

  6. #6 Todd W.
    March 31, 2011

    You’re all getting it wrong. Despite the presence of the question mark and absence of full capitalization, augie is asserting that WHO is your master. Y’know, the World Health Organization. Clearly. It’s all part of the grand Illuminati/Rothschild conspiracy of the lizard people as exposed by David Icke!

  7. #7 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Augustine on what basis do you choose to apply “Jesus didn’t do X” to justify your actions?

    It’s not a basis of action. It is a statement of fact.

    @Falcon, Who created YOUR god?

  8. #8 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    I’ve analyzed Augie’s rants (see my posting at #74 above).

    I also know some people who have diagnosed mental illnesses and they all want to get well, most do with medication and therapy. They resume lives that are very productive and fulfilling.

    Then there is Augie, whose narrow-minded, xenophopbic opinions cause him to hate little kids, little brown and black babies, the disabled, foreigners, gays, lesbians, women, Jews and anyone who has any education.

    Now, when questioned about his education and gainful employment, he launches a new rant. I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is.

    Stick a fork in him, he’s done.

  9. #9 DW
    March 31, 2011

    @ Todd W.:

    Well, there you go! Spilling the beans, letting the cat out of the bag! I can’t take you anywhere, can I?

    Do you realise just how much “clean-up” ops and counter-propaganda *I* myself must now initiate and oversee due to *your* indiscretion? Hours and hours of work when I _could_ be playing tennis at the club, dilly dallying with the shills on someone’s boat, or chatting with higher-ups about the FTSE.

    I know. We’ll say it’s all a joke. A massive joke. Just creative people having fun. No Illuminati. No Lizard King. No shills. No minions. No sub-rosa internecine vaxplot to decimate mankind to more managable numbers.

    You are truly lucky that you’re very handsome, useful, and that I really *like* you a lot or else I’d be on the Skype to Draconis this _very_ *instant*! So watchit, Mr!

    Have a nice day, my love. Yours, DW

  10. #10 Anglachel the Common Sense Pagan
    March 31, 2011

    Augie,

    What God or gods people may or may not serve on here is no way relevant to the discussion. Back to the topic at hand please!

  11. #11 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    @ David N. Andrews: What is a “keskuslaitos”, I cannot find anything on the internet, except for the Finnish language sites.

  12. #12 squirrelelite
    March 31, 2011

    Since this blog post is about the informed consent process, I thought it was interesting that my email yesterday from Dr Val Jones’s Better Health Newsletter had an article about the Salzburg statement on shared decision making.

    Developed by the participants in a Salzburg Global Seminar last December, the document is called the Salzburg Statement. The pivotal distinction here is the difference between informed consent, in which the physician assesses the options and selects one, and gets your consent to do it; and informed choice, in which clinicians tell you the options, with all the pros and cons, and let you choose, based on your preferences.

    The statement also urges patients

    to ask questions and speak up about their concerns, to recognise that they have a right to be equal participants in their care, and to seek and use high-quality health information.

    http://getbetterhealth.com/the-salzberg-statement-patients-must-be-involved-in-healthcare-decisions/2011.03.30?utm_source=Better+Health%2C+LLC+List&utm_campaign=90380c2d9d-All+Better+Health+posts+newsletter&utm_medium=email

  13. #13 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Gary Falcon

    People who insist on following the ritual laws (no tattoos, no homosexuality) of the ancient Jews remind me a bit of Newagers who want to join in the Sun Dance.

    Apparently you don’t realize how contradictory and silly you sound to your fellow SBMers.

    You might as well have said “those ignorant people who follow ancient rituals remind me of newagers who worship the sun.”

    “I am much better than THOSE people. I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster who sent his little Lasagna down to save me from my sins. All I have to do is say a little prayer and attend other pagan holiday rituals like Easter Bunny day and little Santa Claus elf days. Plus, you get lots of presents.”

    “Little Lasagna loves you. And you too can be saved if you commit your life to the Lasagna. The good part is you don’t have to actually do anything different. You can still worship the Sun if you want. You just have to “believe” the right thoughts in your head and all your sins will be perpetually forgiven. Just don’t ever let the two collide It’s a win win situation.”

    Unfortunately for you Mr. saved by Lasagna. The science bloggers don’t take to kindly of your polytheism. If you want to take your Science Based Medicine worship to the ultimate experience you are going to have to denounce lasagna. All of the top bloggers have.

    Lasagna says there is only one. Naturalism rejects dualism and supernaturalism. Something has to give.

  14. #14 dedicated lurker
    March 31, 2011

    My cat is my master, as is proper.

  15. #15 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    DL

    My cat is my master, as is proper.

    No it’s not. That is a fact. Unless you are contradictory.

  16. #16 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Augustine, I stand by my statements, but I will not explain them any further for several reasons:
    1) It’s not anywhere near on topic.
    2) It would require an in-depth discussion of the history of Judaism, Christianity, and the text of the Bible.
    3) You wouldn’t understand any of it.
    The short version is that the New Agers who want to join the Sun Dance want to enjoy the ritual of the Lakota people without understanding the culture or values of them.

  17. #17 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Don’t think I didn’t see this one.

    The God of love and truth. Your god’s more like the heathens:

    God of truth? Uh, you have an epistemology problem. I think the SBMers will agree.

    Augustine, I stand by my statements, but I will not explain them any further for several reasons:

    Good, I wouldn’t want you to lose your religion through self scrutiny brought upon by an athiest sounding board posed as the truth (science is equated as truth and knowledge).

    The short version is that the New Agers who want to join the Sun Dance want to enjoy the ritual of the Lakota people without understanding the culture or values of them.

    Is this supposed to be an insult?

    Like the gentiles who proclaim to follow the Jewish Messiah yet have abandoned the sabbath for political reasons? Can a jewish Christian eat pork? You should understand the culture and values before you do the dance.

    You have a log in your own eye.

  18. #18 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Sorry, augustine, this post is about vaccination, and frankly, there’s no way you could understand theology or culture enough for me to explain any of what I said to you.

  19. #19 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Olnurselady

    Then there is Augie, whose narrow-minded, xenophopbic opinions cause him to hate little kids, little brown and black babies, the disabled, foreigners, gays, lesbians, women, Jews and anyone who has any education.

    Since I know this to not be true. Then the only way you could have arrived at such conclusions is through inconsistencies of logic or logical fallacies. Do you have any evidence of the above and could you explain how you came to your conclusion without using logical fallacies?

    I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is.

    What scam did I pull on you ol lady? How exactly did you “bust” me. Is this just more of your Barney Fife delusions of grandeur?

    It sounds like your jaded emotions are overunning your ability to consistently apply logic. I suspect these same type of emotions are what drove you deep into your ideology.

  20. #20 augustine
    March 31, 2011

    Sorry, augustine, this post is about vaccination, and frankly, there’s no way you could understand theology or culture enough for me to explain any of what I said to you.

    Meaning “I don’t really understand it myself. I’m not about to look like a fool in front of my friends.They already think I’m crazy because I believe in Lasagna. And I’m not really prepared to deal with all of my contradictions. So I’ll just put my god back in his box and go on practicing SBM.”

    You worship the god of truth. Why do you need SBM?

    You should do a bible study with Sauceress.

    “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want; He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for SBM art with me; Thy VACCINES and Thy MEDICINE, they comfort me

  21. #21 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    March 31, 2011

    @lilady: umm… yeh. Been trying to find a suitable thing to say it in English from and I can’t find a definition as such for it. ‘Keskus’ is Finnish for ‘centre’ and ‘laitos’ is Finnish for ‘institution/department’, so it looks like ‘central institution’ in English – which tells you nothing of the character of the place. They tended to house people whom the rather Stalinist social welfare directorates deem too messed up to live amongst ‘normal’ society. They are known for being very messed up and abusive places and, once committed, one has almost no chance of ever leaving. This speaks of very inhumane psychiatric practice in Finland, and it is not flattering to Finland that these places still exist; and it’s not flattering to augie that the Finnish would place him in such an institution as a permanent placement.

    I’m not commenting here as to whether augie actually belong in such a place; I’m just commenting on what the practice here is for someone who shows his spectacular level of mastery of intellectual debate.

    “I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is.”

    Damn right, you did. And he totally hates that.

  22. #22 Nathan Brazil
    March 31, 2011

    I realize I am late to this party and the comment thread has gone the way of extended flame wars, but FWIW – this bill may be useful in some areas, but i can tell you from first-hand experience that finding a traditionally schooled MD pediatrician that will endorse modified vaccination schedules or outright declining of all shots is not hard to do in major major metropolitan areas.

    At my 4 year old’s last well visit I asked our very plain vanilla older pediatrician about vaccines and he gave an “it’s really up to you – I don’t see any reason to bother” kind of speech that shocked me. He leaned towards delaying all shots until after 3 yrs old and then skipping them because by that age the risks are lower, though he follows the standard schedule unless the parent asks for his opinion. I found it all very odd, to be honest. . .

  23. #23 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Nathan Brazil:

    He leaned towards delaying all shots until after 3 yrs old and then skipping them because by that age the risks are lower, though he follows the standard schedule unless the parent asks for his opinion.

    Actually, that is downright dangerous! Especially if you live in a county where pertussis has become endemic. Not to mention the severity of Hib and rotavirus in infants. Oh, and what about a two year old running, falling and skinning a knee in dirt. Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

  24. #24 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    @ David N. Andrews: Thanks for the translation. Here in the United States we use different labels for such human warehouses; developmental centers, State “schools” and psychiatric centers.

    Orac, recently addressed the unethical medical research conducted at such facilities (Revisiting the issue of ethics in human experimentation (March 3, 2011), where I posted.

    In my posting I made reference to the book “The Willowbrook Wars” authored by Sheila and David Rothman, which is an excellent history of the conditions that existed at Willowbrook State School in New York…that led up to Federal Class Action lawsuit and resulting in changes in the way governments treat vulnerable people entrusted to their care. I confess I purchased the Rothmans’ book because I know many of the key players involved in the lawsuit…including one of the kids deliberately infected with Hepatitis B…all grown up now. I had the opportunity to meet David Rothman at a hearing on deinstitutionalization and he is one of my heroes.

    I continue my advocacy, now that I am retired from public health and continue to take some heat for my “liberal” humane views, when I am published under my “real name”.

  25. #25 Nathan Brazil
    March 31, 2011

    Chris:

    Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

    Actually , he mentioned that specifically. He said that for the most part it is not an issue. If something were to happen with an injury that you were worried about, just come on in and get the tetanus shot on demand and it will be fine.

    For the other items about infant risks his opinion was if the baby is healthy and breast-fed none of those are worth the jab as a precaution without other extenuating circumstances. If a kid with pertussis or Hib pops up at the day-care, again, come in and get the shot on demand.

    My only point was, there is nothing particularly “alternative” about this guy. He doesn’t advertise these views and his office is pretty much like any other pediatrician I’ve ever been to as a child or parent, if a bit old fashioned. He’s just the pediatrician down the block.

  26. #26 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    I am sure there are those who will correct me, but once a child is actually diagnosed with pertussis or Hib just getting the vaccine is a bit too late. Even though they are bacterial infections, even antibiotics is futile. Especially with the amount of pertussis toxin produced (and there is a bit with Hib).

    I remember reading that the sad part of Hib is just watching toddlers die without being able to help them. From the CDC Pink Book on Hib:

    Hospitalization is generally required for invasive Hib disease. Antimicrobial therapy with an effective third-generation cephalosporin (cefotaxime or ceftriaxone), or chloramphenicol in combination with ampicillin should be begun immediately. The treatment course is usually 10 days. Ampicillin-resistant strains of Hib are now common throughout the United States. Children with life-threatening illness in which Hib may be the etiologic agent should not receive ampicillin alone as initial empiric therapy.

    It sounds like the pediatrician down the block is in need of some Continuing Medical Education (CME).

  27. #27 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    @ Nathan Brazil: And…..you did run out of there and find a pediatrician that knows about the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases?

    Sad to say, State licensing boards and the American Academy of Pediatrics do not take actions against these wacky physicians (Dr. Jay Gordon). You have to be a “certifiable” wacko, in order to lose your license. (Key in “OPMC Rebecca Carley” to see one of them whose licensed was removed by NYS-for interfering with a child custody court order).

  28. #28 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    Who is your master?

    Oh, goody, Augustine wants to play dharma combat.

  29. #29 Nathan Brazil
    March 31, 2011

    lilady:

    And…..you did run out of there and find a pediatrician that knows about the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases?

    That raises an interesting question in general. Not everyone reads “Respectful Insolence” and/or is informed about the anti-vaccination movement. This guy has a gold-plated rating on-line as a pediatrician in his area and it says nothing about his position on vaccines on any searches I did on his name. So as a parent you make an appointment and bring your kid and if you happen to ask about vaccines he gives his opinion – why would you think it was “wacky”? You have no reason to without any other context. . .

  30. #30 Nathan Brazil
    March 31, 2011

    further to lilady:

    I hope it is obvious there that by “you” I mean the random parent that unassumingly goes to this pediatrician – perhaps after looking online and seeing positive ratings. . .

  31. #31 jim s
    March 31, 2011

    The existance of ~34,000 Christian denominations in the world, with each declaring that their version is the True Christian (TM) version, makes it a little hard to keep up.

    34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. “Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.

    augustine why don’t you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your “correct” version of Christianity on everyone?

    You think that by simply saying you’re a Christian at every turn elevates you to a higher moral ground? Talk is cheap augie!

    augustine, why don’t you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your “correct” version of Christianity on all?

  32. #32 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    @ Chris: Treatment of pertussis and prophylaxis for pertussis case contacts with an anti-microbial (typically erythromicin), is recommended by the CDC. (MMWR December 9, 2005 “Recommended Anti-microbial Agents for Treatment and Post Exposure Prophylaxis of Pertussis”) Antibiotics really do work to shorten the course of the illness and to destroy the bacterium, thus “containing” an outbreak of pertussis disease.

    Ceftriaxone (Rocephen) IV is immediately started in the emergency room…after blood is drawn and spinal fluid specimens obtained for culture and sensitivity…for patients who are showing decreased level of consciousness and meningeal “signs”. (Sadly) infants who have bulging fontanels cannot have a spinal tap…they are at risk for herniation of the brain stem. (Fortunately) many “cases” of meningitis are viral in origin and they resolve quickly with no lasting effects.

    Another great website for updated information about vaccine-preventable diseases is ACIP Guidelines.

    h/t young daddy Nathan Brazil

  33. #33 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 31, 2011

    this bill may be useful in some areas, but i can tell you from first-hand experience that finding a traditionally schooled MD pediatrician that will endorse modified vaccination schedules or outright declining of all shots is not hard to do in major major metropolitan areas.

    Well, yeah. Someone who’s already stubbornly determined that they hate vaccinations is going to subvert the intent of the bill by seeking out a medical professional who’ll tell them the bullshit they want to hear.

    But I think the bill is really aimed, not at the die-hard anti-vaccinationist, but at the parent who is neglecting vaccination for their kids literally out of convenience. Like the parent who thinks “Oh, sure, I’ll buckle up my kids for a long car trip, but what’s the point of doing it when we’re just going a few miles? Surely the risk of getting into a car accident in such a short trip is so low that I’m entitled to bypass the hassle of getting each wriggling kid into a car seat.”

    If getting an exemption from vaccinations involves its own hassle, though, it lowers the incentive to neglect the child’s health.

  34. #34 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    @ Antaeus Feldspar: Great point about exemptions from vaccines for “convenience”. It is possible that they are playing the odds, as well, with herd immunity at a high level or their mistaken belief that their child received a partial series of childhood vaccines…no need for the boosters.

    We will never convince the vehemently opposed to vaccine crowd to immunize their children, but some of the fence-sitters and youngsters whose parents who are too busy to get their kids fully-immunized, will benefit.

  35. #35 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    I realize this is a late date to make an observation about the actual bill, but looking over the legislative history, I’m not crazy about the Washington house amendment adopted March 25 to “excuse[] any parent who is exempting a child from immunization because of religious beliefs from the requirement to have the form signed by a health care practitioner, if the parent demonstrates membership in a religious body or church in which the religious beliefs or teachings preclude a health care practitioner from providing medical treatment to the child.”

    Requiring “membership in a religious body or church” is a recipe for litigation, even if the subsection is severable. It’s also a solution in search of a problem.

  36. #36 Nathan Brazil
    April 1, 2011

    Narad:

    Requiring “membership in a religious body or church” is a recipe for litigation

    Couldn’t agree more and this is actually where I think there is a general problem with this and what Conaway is trying to do in NJ.

    I get the public concern, but I also feel strongly that saying there is no philosophical exemption but only a religious exemption is a distinction without a difference. If a parent wants to say they pray to banana trees and they tell them not to vaccinate in coded peels, you have to accept that to recognize any religious exemptions as per constitutional law.

    Either there are no exemptions, or there are philosophical exemptions – this middle ground will never stand long term scrutiny and combat from anti-vaccinationists. It is unfortunate, but I don’t see how it can be squared any other way.

  37. #37 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    augustine why don’t you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your “correct” version of Christianity on everyone?

    James, I’m not “pushing” a correct version of Christianity on anyone here. Maybe your just a little sensitive and defensive for some reason.

    You think that by simply saying you’re a Christian at every turn elevates you to a higher moral ground? Talk is cheap augie!

    I’ve not taken any moral high ground. That’s your opinion. I’m not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers. And it’s not the law to do so.

  38. #38 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    Lilady

    It sounds like the pediatrician down the block is in need of some Continuing Medical Education (CME).

    You are assuming he doesn’t have the correct information.

    Chris

    Oh, and what about a two year old running, falling and skinning a knee in dirt. Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

    You can’t be serious? You’re reaching. Really hard.

  39. #39 Luna_the_cat
    April 1, 2011

    augie: “I’m not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers.”

    No, just sacrificing the health of children to delusion, illogic, poor understanding and possibly insanity. That’s SO much better.

    I hope your children are as imaginary as your intellectual achievements. Nobody deserves a parent like you. Seriously.

  40. #40 Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2011

    James, I’m not “pushing” a correct version of Christianity on anyone here. Maybe your just a little sensitive and defensive for some reason.

    You explicitly told us you think Christianity and science-based medicine are incompatible, something only a small subset of Christians believe in. Meanwhile, Lutheran World Relief is providing mosquito netting and water filters to poor countries, devices whose use assume science-based germ theory.

    I’ve not taken any moral high ground. That’s your opinion. I’m not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers. And it’s not the law to do so.

    That sound like an attempt at the moral low ground, actually. We aren’t asking you to sacrifice anyone’s health, we’re asking you to take precautions that have a far lower risk than the alternative. And wouldn’t Jesus of Nazareth be one of those philosophers? “Whoever is to be first among you is to be slave of all?”

  41. #41 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    From Philosophic objection to vaccination as a risk for tetanus among children younger than 15 years.:
    Age: 3 y
    Gender: M
    State: MO
    Year: 1995
    Tetanus Toxoid History: 0
    Description of Injury: Bug bite on leg
    Puncture: Yes
    Time to TIG{ddagger}: 15+ d
    Length of Hospitalization: 24 d
    Ventilator: 9 d
    Reason Unvaccinated/Time Since Last Dose: Religious—Assembly of Yahweh

  42. #42 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    @ Chris: “It seems like the pediatrician down the block is in need of Continuing Medical Education (CME); let’s keep our running dialog going because the dullard thinks we are the same poster… I checked the AAP website for CME credits and found many CME credits being offered on vaccines, vaccine-preventable diseases and other childhood diseases…and no credits offered in CAM. However I did locate a website (NCCAM) that offers CME credits in the various “disciplines” of alternative/complementary medicine.

    I bow to your superior research skills and the citing of the study/analysis by the AAP of cases of tetanus reported during 1992-2000. Twelve of the fifteen cases (80 %) of tetanus were unvaccinated and 12/12 cases (100 %) were associated with parental refusal to vaccinate based on religious or philosophical grounds.

    I looked up the Assembly of Yahweh…seems to be an admixture of Judaism and Christian beliefs and anti-vaccine “beliefs.” I wonder how many of them are “ordained” and not paying taxes?

  43. #43 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    8 years
    14 cases
    ZERO deaths
    100s of 1000s not vaccinated.

    Yep it must be as easy as a bugbite to get tetanus and/or die from it.

    From Dumb & Dumber:

    Chris: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Doctor. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances of getting tetanus?
    Doctor: Not good.
    Chris: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
    Doctor: I’d say more like one out of a million.
    [pause]
    Chris: So you’re telling me there’s a chance… *YEAH!*

    It must be that tetanus herd immunity. I should be so thankful that my neighbor has decreased my unvaccinated chance of not getting or dying from tetanus.

    But I could greatly increase my chances by becoming an intravenous heroin user.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm

    “Twenty-nine non-neonatal cases unrelated to acute injury were associated with underlying medical conditions, including chronic wounds or IDU (Intravenous Drug User). Two patients had breast tissue necrosis secondary to breast cancer. Three patients had diabetes, two of whom were insulin-dependent. Thirteen (43%) of the patients without an acute injury were known to be IDUs (one of whom also had insulin-dependent diabetes), representing 11% of all tetanus cases.”

  44. #44 Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2011

    Augustine, you worry about a one in a million chance of vaccine side effects, and you dismiss a one in a thousand disease. Think about that very carefully.

  45. #45 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    Thanks, lilady. I have found that study years ago, and I was always struck by the kid getting tetanus from an insect bite.

    Tetanus is rare, but it does happen. The kids who had been vaccinated suffered much less than those who had not.

    Another interesting blog post from Catherina on tetanus from a knee injury to a teen. Also, Henry David Thoreau’s brother John came down with tetanus from nicking himself with his razor. Some minor injuries can become quite serious.

  46. #46 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    let’s keep our running dialog going because the dullard thinks we are the same poster..

    I honestly can’t tell the difference.

  47. #47 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    Gray Falcon:

    Think about that very carefully.

    Now you asking the impossible!

    Also, he loves to cherry pick, more recent report includes these words: “Thirty (15.4%) of 195 patients had diabetes, and 27 (15.3%) of 176 were IDUs.” Of course we know he is very bad at arithmetic, so is unaware that even summing 15.4% and 15.3% is less than one half.

  48. #48 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    @ my alter-ego Chris. You beat me to it. Dullard’s citation is from the July 3, 1998 Morbidity and Mortality WEEKLY Report (that would Earth Week of seven days). Time warped dullard needs to catch up on his reading of the MMWR…all 298 weekly MMWRs.

  49. #49 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    Also Little Augie seems to not understand that those with diabetes and are IDUs stick themselves with needles at a much higher frequency than the general population, and are still less than half of those who had tetanus.

    Scrapes, nicks, punctures and bug bites can and do transmit tetanus.

  50. #50 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    You explicitly told us you think Christianity and science-based medicine are incompatible, something only a small subset of Christians believe in.

    The two metaphysical assumptions are contradictory. The atheists know this. You don’t.

    Meanwhile, Lutheran World Relief is providing mosquito netting and water filters to poor countries, devices whose use assume science-based germ theory.

    I’ve supported similar projects? What’s your point?

    You’re confusing science, the discipline, with the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy. They are not the same.

    I know it’s common confusion. That’s why whoever coined the term purposefully staged it that way. It’s very naming is meant to polarize and agenda push. We are “X”. If you are not “X” or question “X” then you are “ant-X”.

    “Our name says ‘science’ in it. If you disagree with us then you are outright unscientific.”

    Move over god. We’re the new church in town.

  51. #51 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    Today’s MMWR report also disproves the dullard’s theory about better sanitation…not vaccines…are responsible for the decreasing rate of reported measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, hepatitis b, invasive HIB diseases, invasive strep pneumoniae diseases, invasive meningiccocal diseases, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus infections…did I miss any?

    Everyone in dullard’s world knows that all these vaccine-preventable diseases are spread via the fecal-oral route or are water borne.

  52. #52 Sauceress
    April 1, 2011

    augie, could you enlighten me as to your interpretation of the

    the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy.

    A straight forward definitive answer from you on this would be great.

  53. #53 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    Scrapes, nicks, punctures and bug bites can and do transmit tetanus.

    YIkes Bug induced tetanus. There is an outbreak! It HAS been confirmed! Strip all children and spray them down with DEET! No one is safe. Vaccinate them all.

    You’d think you’d see more of this bug disease in the unvaccinated since the unvaccinated have become an epidemic in this country. What’s your reason why the unvaccinated have been driving in droves to the hospital with unvaccinated caused tetanus.

    Do you believe that not vaccinating causes tetanus? That’s what you little AAP propaganda piece implies. Like tetanus is some sort of default in this country.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/tetanus.pdf

    “Efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial.”

  54. #54 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 1, 2011

    Augustine,
    Are you claiming that bug bites do not transmit disease?

  55. #55 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    @ Chris: More cherry picking from the dullard again. Last paragraph p. 277 CDC Pink Book; puncture wounds account for 50 % of reported cases of tetanus and puncture wounds include insect and animal bites. (Like shooting fish in barrel on a dreary Friday afternoon).

  56. #56 Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2011

    augustine:

    The two metaphysical assumptions are contradictory. The atheists know this. You don’t.

    Any atheist who believes this is grossly misinformed about Christianity.

    I’ve supported similar projects? What’s your point?

    If you have, that means you’d be supporting people you considered nihilistic atheists by your standards.

    You’re confusing science, the discipline, with the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy. They are not the same.

    Really? Do you have any evidence that scientific medicine is a philosophy, not a science? Besides a confused definition of the word “nihilism”, I mean actual evidence.

    Move over god. We’re the new church in town.

    This is the other reason I consider you a heathen: Your god is a limited god, who rules a small jurisdiction and nothing else. If you use modern medicine, your god no longer rules.

  57. #57 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    I get the public concern, but I also feel strongly that saying there is no philosophical exemption but only a religious exemption is a distinction without a difference.

    I disagree. New York State handles it pretty well, IMO, and reading some of the decisions is mildly amusing in terms of illustrating that fake religious constructions woven from the advice of random Internet mommies is unlikely to cut the mustard. I doubt that many states want to get into this endeavor, though, and such cases might as well just admit the obvious.

    But the point I was trying to make was that this specific amendment is prima facie an impermissible entanglement, and a poorly worded one at that.

  58. #58 LW
    April 1, 2011

    8 years
    14 cases
    ZERO deaths
    100s of 1000s not vaccinated.

    Those are, of course, only the reported cases under age fifteen. Augustine thinks this is trivial. The three-year-old who spent 24 days in the hospital, nine of them on a respirator, and his parents who didn’t know if he would live or die, might disagree.

    Also augustine is unaware that there is no herd immunity to tetanus, and vaccination against it is solely and exclusively for the benefit of the person who is vaccinated.

  59. #59 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    @ Narad: A few days ago I came across this site:

    Law.com “Court Denies Mother’s Bid for Religious Exemption to Vaccines” (April 7, 2010)

    The mommy in question lives in Great Neck, New York and sought vaccine exemption for entry into the school district’s pre-kindergarten program, based on her “pantheism” beliefs. This article is way more than “mildly amusing….” I’d love to know where this now five-year-old is receiving her education; home schooling is always an option for “pantheists.”

  60. #60 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    Lilady

    Like shooting fish in barrel on a dreary Friday afternoon.

    Andy Taylor: What are you doing?
    Barney Fife: Gun-drawing practice, ten minutes every day. If I ever have to use this baby, I want to teach it to come to papa in a hurry.

    Barney Fife: Well, I guess to sum it up, you could say, there’s three reasons why there’s so little crime in Mayberry. There’s Andy, and there’s me, and
    [patting gun]
    Barney Fife: baby makes three.

  61. #61 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    Gary Falcon

    Any atheist who believes this is grossly misinformed about Christianity.

    I’ll have to take the atheist/skeptic’s side on this one.

    Really? Do you have any evidence that scientific medicine is a philosophy, not a science?

    You truly are clueless and naive aren’t you? Of course you can’t actually answer that.

    If you have, that means you’d be supporting people you considered nihilistic atheists by your standards.

    No it doesn’t. Who is it that YOU think I consider atheistic nihilists? Poor people or people who put in clean water?

    Gary, your contradictory Christian views are sinking you lower and lower in the heirarchy status of SBM. The more you talk the lower you fall. They are snickering at you.

    You are just being tolerated at this point.

  62. #62 Gray Falcon
    April 1, 2011

    You truly are clueless and naive aren’t you? Of course you can’t actually answer that.

    Arrogance is not a substitute for an answer. Why do you feel Christianity and scientific medicine are diametrically opposed? Simply insulting me isn’t going to work. And don’t ask me to answer your questions, you wouldn’t listen to the answers anyway. I might, if only to correct your misconceptions.

    Oh, by the way, water filtration systems are modern medicine, the life cycles of water-borne parasites are fairly recent discoveries.

  63. #63 titmouse
    April 1, 2011

    augustine,

    You can’t determine anyone’s commitment to the scientific method simply on the basis of their answer to the question, “do you believe there is a God?”

    The answer anyone gives is far less important than the method used for arriving at an answer.

  64. #64 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    “Caviezel, a native of Switzerland, declined to meet with school superintendent Thomas Dolan because ‘people twist words around sometimes.'”

    Yah, this is a time-tested way to queer the deal from the outset. Refusal to communicate other than by writing is still pretty common advice, though, from what I come across.

  65. #65 augustine
    April 1, 2011

    titouse

    You can’t determine anyone’s commitment to the scientific method simply on the basis of their answer to the question, “do you believe there is a God?”

    Who said anything about the scientific method? I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn’t tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines! And it didn’t tell anyone to vaccinate 3 day old babies. Something else did.

  66. #66 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn’t tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines!

    Do count them off in the name of truly informed consent for the populace, Augustine.

  67. #67 augustine
    April 2, 2011

    Why do you feel Christianity and scientific medicine are diametrically opposed?

    It’s not “scientific medicine” it’s “science based medicine”. And I don’t “feel” like they are diametrically opposed. They ARE diametrically opposed. Ask the atheist.

    It’s not just Christianity, it’s the belief in ANY god is diametrically opposed to “science” based medicine. The only way it can coexist is for you to adhere to a greek philosophy that compartmentalizes your particular religious belief system. Your little box will be tolerated by those of SBM ideological faith also called scientific naturalism, as long as it does not interfere with their ideology. It’s rationalized intolerance and bigotry.

    Are you not the slight bit curious as to why this type of thinking is dominated by atheists/agnostics? Do you know why a skeptic IS a skeptic? Do you know the philosophical underpinnings of a skeptic? Do you know what metaphysical constructs are? Do you know what epistemology is?

    Do you believe that God created everything? How do you know this? Do you believe that inferential empiricism will lead you to the truth? Does it give you certainty? Why do people want certainty? In your religion do you know what idolatry is?

    If you believe in ANY god, you are irrational to the SBMer.

  68. #68 augustine
    April 2, 2011

    NoNads

    Do count them off in the name of truly informed consent for the populace, Augustine.

    Excuse me 176+ and counting!

    Do tell me how many the god of science told us to mass vaccinate with. Do tell me how many the god of science said it’s ok to kill with vaccines? Do tell me how many the god of science said that it is absolutely necessary for.

  69. #69 Gray Falcon
    April 2, 2011

    I asked why you considered scientific medicine incompatible with religion. You just spent five paragraphs screaming at me how obvious it is, and asking rhetorical questions. (No, yes, yes, don’t care, doesn’t matter, yes, you have a better explanation?, that’s nonsense, yes, for comfort, and belief in human power over divine love) Let me try again. Please explain, in clear and simple terms, why you believe scientific medicine and religion are incompatible.

  70. #70 Narad
    April 2, 2011

    Do you know what epistemology is?

    Augustine, assuming that it would never occur to you to pull off such a brilliant April Fool’s joke, I say to you that the perceived world is the unconscious mind. Tell me what difference this makes.

  71. #71 Narad
    April 2, 2011

    Excuse me 176+ and counting!

    Do tell me how many the god of science told us to mass vaccinate with.

    Document your claim, Augustine. You know what happens to liars.

  72. #72 LW
    April 2, 2011

    “I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn’t tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines!”

    Horrors. I find myself in agreement with augustine.

    The scientific method is a way of discovering facts about reality, as best we can. It enabled us to learn atomic structure, from which we can deduce that converting mass to energy will make a really big bomb, but it doesn’t tell us whether we should or shouldn’t do so.  Atomic structure is the same in either case.   

    Likewise, it enabled us to learn that certain diseases are caused by micro-organisms, as opposed to curses, but it doesn’t tell us to do anything at all about that information. We could do nothing and watch people die or we could use the knowledge of how the immune system works to try to prevent suffering and death.  All the scientific method can tell us is the probability of harm through different actions; the decision is made based on our values.

  73. #73 lilady
    April 2, 2011

    Me, I was educated in a very traditional Christian faith, intently studying the Old and New Testaments, brought up in a mixed faith neighborhood where we a palled around. Close friends are Christians, Jews, Moslems, atheists and agnostics. I tend to pal with those who challenge me intellectually and are “good” people, who don’t hate, don’t lie and don’t slander (Proverbs 10:18).

    There are no passages in the bible that mention vaccines but do mention medicines (Jeremiah 51:18) to cure the sick.

    Thus, endeth the bible lesson.

  74. #74 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    You fools! Here is the number one paid researcher for the CDC who was just indicted for fraud and money laundering and bogus research that turned out not to be worth a damn. This is the man you trust so just keep shooting up your helpless kids. Read this and see if this is ‘scientific’ enough for you morons.

    CDC Vaccine Fraud 2 Millon Dollars
    By politicol

    march 12, 2010 The man who was a force for the CDC and vigorously disputed the fact of autism and its causes were linked to vaccines has disappeared.

    This man not only left the building -he took 2 million dollars with him committing not only fraud but theft which is a felony. This man is Dr. Paul Thorsen took the 2 million dollars that was supposed to be spent on the research to prove that autism was not caused by mercury.

    Dear Dr. Paul Thorsen -Americans want their 2 Million dollars back.
    Obviously Dr. Thorsen had the credentials, the professionalism that we expect from the Center for Disease Control that our taxpaying dollars are not going to crooks. However in this case that is exactly what happened.

    The CDC relied on Thorsen to prove that vaccines do not cause autism which he failed to prove. The CDC relied on Dr. Thorsen to prove that the MMR vaccine were not hurting children which he did not prove.

    “The boner of this story is that Dr. Poul Thorsen is a psychiatrist -he has no qualifications whatsoever in Toxicology and he is not a research scientist that used quantitative analysis for his study. Basically it is junk science and the CDC promoted this as truth and lauded this man for his opinions. You really have to wonder where the US is headed for in terms of vaccines and how many vaccines your children can actually have before they become permanently damaged. How many is too many is a good question because there is not one study that proves vaccines are safe.”

    Read more about CDC Vaccine Fraud -Dr. Thorsen and 2 Million Dollars Missing on:
    http://www.politicolnews.com/cdc-vaccine-fraud-2-million/?utm_source=INK&utm_medium=copy&utm_campaign=share

  75. #75 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    Fraud Dr. Thorsen was finally indicted April 13, 2011 on multiple counts of wire fraud and money laundering. He used a few million of your tax dollars to buy a mansion and a few other little toys. How is this scientific stuff working for you now?

  76. #76 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    The pathetic author of this most mis-informed little article is about as bat shit insane as they come. If you are saying children who are vaccinated are protected from childhood diseases then why do you give a damn if someone else’s child is vaccinated or not? You idiot. If your poor child is so protected then they are in no danger. Do you ever make sense? That is like saying if your child wears a raincoat but mine doesn’t then my child may cause your child to get wet!

    It is no one’s business but the parents if they vaccinate or not. You are the one who is in the herd. The masses are the ones who march lockstep to the tune of the powers that be and don’t have the backbone to think for themselves. Those of us who care about our kids and what is pumped into them are the ones who will stand up against what we know is wrong. You make me puke.

  77. #77 Chemmomo
    April 18, 2011

    Becky,
    did you get this upset when you found about Bernie Madoff or Kenneth Lay?

  78. #78 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    Chemmomo, no because as usual I know frauds and cons when I see them. It was just fun as hell to rub your noses in your own shit. The whole damn lot of you seem to have been shot up with one too many doses of poisonous mercury and rotten monkey tissue, which also changes your DNA. Have you noticed your knuckles getting a little closer to the ground there cheeta? If you are also one of the RH positive gene poolers then you have two counts against you now. Rhesus or Green monkey? I would say you are more a chimp. Yo mamma done fooled around and thar yo is.

  79. #79 Chris
    April 18, 2011

    Becky, uh why are you being a Necromancer when this is being discussed in a more recent article? Did the comments over there disturb you?

    You say:

    Chemmomo, no because as usual I know frauds and cons when I see them.

    So you knew Wakefield was a fraud all along?

  80. #80 novalox
    April 18, 2011

    @Chris

    Perhaps she wanted an easier target to post her disturbed rant on, with a smaller chance that her “comments” would be picked apart and subject to critical thinking?

    I will give the troll credit; she made me laugh at her rantings and ravings.

  81. #81 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    @Chris…how g-damn stupid are you freaks? Wakefield has been vindicated and even a dimwit can see that. You people are so cowardly and afraid to think for yourselves and fear those of us who refuse to dance to the music of the medical cabal. You envy our strength and the fact that we have the best interest of our children at heart and actually do something about it. You fear the shunning of your stupid friends and families and keep going down the road of destruction, dragging your poor children with you, when your children would be better off being removed from your house.

    You would have just as much luck giving immunity to your kids if you danced barefoot around a fire slinging a dead chicken over your head and chanting as you do allowing poisons to be continuously pumped into them.

    Only an abusive person would do that to their children. Like I said before, if you put such trust in poison vaccines to protect your kids, why all the hoopla about those who don’t. If your vaccines don’t protect you from those who are not vaccinated then your voodoo shit isn’t worth a damn. Just exactly what does your poison protect your kids from?

    Hundreds of thousand of our military have died from poison vaccines for years and that is a documented FACT! If you imbeciles ever learn to use the Freedom of Information Act you might get an education you gravely need.

    Next time you take your child for another round of toxins flip the consent sheet over and read the part that states you are aware of the possible dangers that might occur and you take full responsibility in case of adverse reaction. That is what you are signing right before you allow your child to be jeopardized. Did you know that if you ever claim an injection damaged your child after you have signed that consent you can be charged with child endangerment because by signing the consent you admitted you were aware of possible adverse reactions, even possible death? THAT is what is true ‘turning the tables’. Even though you are ignorant and arrogant I would not wish that on even you.

    It is mindboggling how so many people can live in this nation and be so clueless about how your government uses you, lies to you and bleeds you dry and you still can’t put two and two together and come up with four. Your poor poor little children that you claim to love. All that mercury in your system is taking a toll on your brain. Maybe they will invent a new vaccine for you folks who are mercury and aluminum poisoned! It might contain plutonium or depleted uranium. Most of you would trample one another to be first in line.

  82. #82 Chris
    April 18, 2011

    Exactly what I thought. Of course she has no idea how stupid she looks since we have been discussing Thorsen for a few days!

  83. #83 Chris
    April 18, 2011

    Becky:

    Wakefield has been vindicated and even a dimwit can see that.

    Cite?

    Hundreds of thousand of our military have died from poison vaccines for years and that is a documented FACT!

    Cite?

    Maybe they will invent a new vaccine for you folks who are mercury and aluminum poisoned! It might contain plutonium or depleted uranium.

    Cite?

    Remember, unless you support your statement with actual evidence we will assume that you that you just made it up. Especially the stuff about mercury in vaccines. All pediatric vaccines have been made available in thimerosal free versions for over decade (yes, even influenza and two of the DTaPs!).

    To look less foolish, go to the more recent on topic articles.

  84. #84 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    @novalox…good try but I think before I quip worthless drivel like you. I am not afraid of being picked apart by a pack of hungry buzzards. Preditors are cowards who always work in packs but on a one to one basis will run. Do you guys use the tag team method or just jump in helter shelter?

    I highly suggest you go online and google ‘The Poison Needle’ and READ it. It is free and it is completely documented with official records that can be proven by even the most simple of minds, so most of you could benefit.

    I don’t really give a rats ass how long you have discussed Thorsen. You need to be reminded of him everyday until you are dead. He is the perfect representation of your ilk. You all thought you had the upper hand with your ‘scientific’ proof until he was found to be just another crook. No one deserves that more than you knuckle draggers.

    With this I am off to sleep so don’t think for one moment I left in shame. From the comments I see from the stooge galery I don’t think I will miss anything earth shaking. Go rest your toxin ridden bodies and try to clear your foggy minds.

  85. #85 novalox
    April 18, 2011

    @becky

    Again, thanks for the unintentional laughs with your rant. I don’t think I have laughed as hard at someone’s postings here, which is saying a lot.

    Your liberal use of ad hominem, insinuation, unscieitific thinking, and the tu quoque fallacy really makes you look like an utter fool.

    I’ve already looked into your “supposed” evidence and believe me, presenting such pseudoscientific stuff like that as your evidence is just plain foolish.

    As Chris said above, where are your citations from scientific journals to support your side? (I’m not holding my breath waiting for you to post any)

    Honestly, if your postings weren’t so disjointed and rambling, I’d say that you’d be a Poe.

  86. #86 Chris
    April 18, 2011

    Seriously, Becky, why are you posting on this old unrelated article instead of the more recent one on Thorsen? Here it is again, just in case you do not understand that the blue text are embedded hypertext:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/tpoul_thorsen_vaccine_safety.php

  87. #87 Orac
    April 18, 2011

    You fools! Here is the number one paid researcher for the CDC who was just indicted for fraud and money laundering and bogus research that turned out not to be worth a damn. This is the man you trust so just keep shooting up your helpless kids. Read this and see if this is ‘scientific’ enough for you morons.

    You’re a rather clueless git, aren’t you, Becky?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/poul_thorsen_vaccines_fraud.php
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/tpoul_thorsen_vaccine_safety.php

    We’ve been talking about Poul Thorsen for nearly four days now. The whole case is a very transparent attempt to poison the well.

  88. #88 Jud
    April 18, 2011

    Becky writes:

    You fools!…Read this and see if this is ‘scientific’ enough for you morons.

    * * *

    The pathetic author of this most mis-informed little article is about as bat shit insane as they come…. You idiot…. Do you ever make sense?

    * * *

    It was just fun as hell to rub your noses in your own shit. The whole damn lot of you seem to have been shot up with one too many doses of poisonous mercury and rotten monkey tissue…. Have you noticed your knuckles getting a little closer to the ground there cheeta?…I would say you are more a chimp. Yo mamma done fooled around and thar yo is.

    * * *

    how g-damn stupid are you freaks?… You people are so cowardly and afraid to think for yourselves….

    * * *

    worthless drivel like you. I am not afraid of being picked apart by a pack of hungry buzzards. Preditors are cowards….it is completely documented with official records that can be proven by even the most simple of minds, so most of you could benefit….He is the perfect representation of your ilk. You all thought you had the upper hand with your ‘scientific’ proof until he was found to be just another crook. No one deserves that more than you knuckle draggers.

    Your persuasive evidence-based scientific argument has won me over.

  89. #89 Krebiozen
    April 18, 2011

    Becky, you have been lied to. Just because there are countless web-pages making the same claims that you are making doesn’t make them true. I have been disgusted over and over again when I have looked more closely at these claims and have found out they are based on misquotes, distorted facts or are simply lies.

    I assume you mean ‘The Poisoned Needle’ (not ‘The Poison Needle’) by Eleanor McBean? It was written more than half a century ago, and is a horrible mish-mash of germ theory denialism, naturopathy and pseudoscientific idiocy. The fact it is available on whale.to will say it all to most people reading this. It’s utter nonsense from beginning to end.

    For example, McBean claimed this, about antibodies:

    These elusive little nothings have fooled the people and served the uses of doctors but have vanished into theory when subjected to the clear light of scientific investigation.

    Having worked with many technologies that depend on antibodies to work, having measured antibody levels in blood hundreds of times and having seen electron micrographs of antibodies, I find that statement so ludicrous that I can’t take anything else she wrote seriously.

  90. #90 Jan
    April 18, 2011

    On the point of these anti-vaccin groups making some parents think that their kids autism is their own doing, because they had their kids vaccinated.

    The reason it works is actually because they get to shift blame, to the vaccines(and whoever pushes the vaccines), more so if they have some information on the subject and start getting the picture that science is more and more showing that there are genetic factors at play.

    Blaming themselves for having kids vaccinated and then blaming the vaccine is way easier to cope, then facing the realization that a defect in their genes is part of the cause.

    The idea of having some bad genes within them appears to be 1000x worse then having made a mistake (or being “tricked” into) having their children vaccinated.

    My dad for instance, when the subject comes up, rather immediately thinks I’m blaming him for me having Aspergers.

    The really annoying thing about that is, as a guy with aspergers, I don’t make judgments like that. I speak about this subject, without attaching any emotion value’s to it. I don’t play the blame game (which is one of the rather positive traits aspergers brings).

    So, blaming vaccines isn’t guilting the parents, its actually giving them the option to shift their blaming from themselves to something out there.

  91. #91 Militant Agnostic
    April 18, 2011

    Wacky Becky

    Do you guys use the tag team method or just jump in helter shelter?

    I try to to stay out of helter shelters since I am allergic to helter fur.

    Chris @283 – By now you should know the difference between a fact and a FACT! The latter never requires a citation since it just is. The all caps alone should be proof enough of veracity.

  92. #92 Chris
    April 18, 2011

    Yes, Militant Agnostic, I should know the difference. They are the FACT that toddlers know to stay on the sidewalk and someone would know immediately from across the room that someone is shedding a disease, even though they have no symptoms.

    Well, we do actually jump in when we all see such a fettering of silly “FACT”s. We love the target practice.

  93. #93 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 18, 2011

    This must be the original helter shelter.

  94. #94 novalox
    April 18, 2011

    @Chris

    Look at the good point. becky’s just wacky enough for entertainment value, nothing more.

  95. #95 Composer99
    April 18, 2011

    Personally speaking, I don’t know why parents should feel guilty about a genetic etiology of autism.

    It’s not like they can personally, consciously control which egg gets released into the Fallopian Tubes or which lucky sperm out of 30-odd million is the one that makes it to fertilize the egg.

  96. #96 ArtK
    April 18, 2011

    @Composer99

    Personally speaking, I don’t know why parents should feel guilty about a genetic etiology of autism.

    If you haven’t been through it, it’s hard to explain. There’s something very primitive that gets activated in a parent when something happens to their child. It’s kinda scary what you feel over nothing more than a skinned knee.

    This is magnified in our current society. There’s an underlying myth that it’s possible to raise a child in perfect safety and therefore, if anything bad happens “it’s your fault.” The idea that bad stuff happens without someone being responsible has been lost. That leads to a strong reaction of “not me!” when something goes wrong.

  97. #97 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    You people are too brain damaged by vaccine toxins to think for yourselves but I went to the trouble of gathering a few great articles full of cites, cites, cites, cites, cites. I did that for the autistic among you like chris, chris, chris, chris.

    Articles:
    • Facebook crowdsourced investigation exposes vaccine denials of SIGA Technologies

    @kreb

    Great cut and paste job and how dare you criticize Bean when you are a liar. You wouldn’t know one end of a q-tip from the other. You are the one who has been lied to and now you pass it along and add to it as you go.

    • Evidence-based vaccinations: A scientific look at the missing science behind flu season vaccines

    • Flu vaccines revealed as the greatest quackery ever pushed in the history of medicine

    • Vaccine philosophical exemptions: A moral and ethical imperative

    • NaturalNews exclusive: International Medical Council on Vaccination refutes vaccine propaganda with myth-busting report

    • The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child’s health

    http://www.naturalnews.com/028326_vaccines_public_safety.html#ixzz1Ju1FgS8j

    Also, read the testimony of the Congressional Hearings on vaccines to get a few more FACTS, FACTS, FACTS, FACTS. I have never seen so many clueless imbeciles on one site. Keep poisoning yourselves and your kids. Soon you may all get your wish for mandatory vaccines but you won’t like it. You just may get what you damn well deserve. It doesn’t matter how old a book is if it is truthful. Books warning about the heinous profit making practice of vaccination were being written as early as the 1800’s but over time the rich powerful companies won out over the simple doctor or heart broken parent. Now the loons and sheep follow blindly along like the worthless turds they are. I see our Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to parasites like you sad creatures. Well, you may soon get to face life without those rights. Go back to sleep and remember your government loves you and wants what is best for us all.

  98. #98 Beamup
    April 18, 2011

    I see no cites, no facts, nothing except references to Facebook (don’t make me laugh) and NaturalNews (worse than useless). Peer-reviewed journals only; PMID references will suffice.

  99. #99 Gray Falcon
    April 18, 2011

    You people are too brain damaged by vaccine toxins to think for yourselves but I went to the trouble of gathering a few great articles full of cites, cites, cites, cites, cites. I did that for the autistic among you like chris, chris, chris, chris.

    Were those insults really necessary? Also, if you look on this site, you’ll discover naturalnews is not considered a reliable source of information. Do you

    Books warning about the heinous profit making practice of vaccination were being written as early as the 1800’s but over time the rich powerful companies won out over the simple doctor or heart broken parent.

    There are also books from the period warning about allowing the primitive dark-skinned people to mingle with the regular folks.

    I see our Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to parasites like you sad creatures. Well, you may soon get to face life without those rights. Go back to sleep and remember your government loves you and wants what is best for us all.

    Ma’am, we aren’t just blindly trusting the government, we are following the evidence. The only one here showing blind trust in anyone is you.

  100. #100 Narad
    April 18, 2011

    You wouldn’t know one end of a q-tip from the other.

    Well, there’s a peculiar one.

  101. #101 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 18, 2011

    You wouldn’t know one end of a q-tip from the other.

    Enlighten me. Which end do you use to clean the spittle from your keyboard?

  102. #102 JayK
    April 18, 2011

    @Becky: Someone as obviously educated as you are on the issue of vaccine safety must have a haven for where you can discuss your ideas in the relative safety of a group and encourage each other to go out an make a difference. I see you’re trying very hard to educate the people here, and they just aren’t listening, but I’d love to see where you’ve been getting all of this great information.

  103. #103 NJ
    April 18, 2011

    JayK @ 302:

    I’d love to see where you’ve been getting all of this great information.

    Most likely, here.

  104. #104 Becky
    April 18, 2011

    Gulf War Syndrome:Killing our own.Film

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gulf-war-syndrome/

    The military who never set foot outside the US also came down with the so-called GWS. It was proven to be toxic vaccines. The average age of those overseas at that time was 20 and more than 60% are dead and others disabled for life.

    @JayK…I research using the Invisible Web that is far more extensive than the public web. There you can find professional research studies on any topic you choose and going back as far as you choose. There are thesis on any subject written in the higher criticism realm from professors in every imaginable arena from all over the globe. You can find the bogus research that has been uncovered and true research the PTB would rather remain in the dark. The truth is out there if one wants it. The public web utilizes 167 terabytes while the invisible web utilizes over 91,000 terabytes. It is like having every library in the world at your fingertips.

    If you are not familiar with it just google invisible web or hidden web and you will be presented with options for a search engine to use. You will just have to play around with various ones until you find one that is easiest for you to navigate. It is simple once you get into it.

    You can find all sorts of research ordered by the various departments of the government and boy, what a deceitful bunch they are. They decide what we should know and we shouldn’t know. They have used the public as biological lab rats for years and not a thing has changed. The FOIA released many documents proving the public has been used to see how deadly toxins would affect them by spraying entire communities, putting toxins in water supplies and injecting toxins into unsuspecting citizens. Remember the Tuskegee syphlis experiments? It is quite depressing to know we have a rouge bunch ruling this country but it is better to be informed than a sitting duck.

    As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con. It is the laying out and weighing of evidence and the untold deaths of whistle blowers that got my attention. If there is nothing to hid, why are they so afraid? Truth never hides and truth will come out.

  105. #105 Concerned
    April 18, 2011

    Becky,

    It’s not nice to make fun of vaccine safety activitists with insanely over-the-top parody posts.

  106. #106 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 18, 2011

    Becky:
    You brag about access to 91 000 terabytes of information from the Invisible Web and every book written pro and con about vaccination. Yet the citations you come up with are:

    – Facebook
    – A documentary film
    – Natural News.com
    – A book written in the Fifties (that appears to be delusional) that is promoted on Whale.to.

    That’s it?
    What a ludicrous failure you are.

  107. #107 Science Mom
    April 18, 2011

    Oh come on, Becky has to be a Poe right? Right?

  108. #108 Militant Agnostic
    April 18, 2011

    It is quite depressing to know we have a rouge bunch ruling this country

    I just knew the Reds were behind it all.

    Becky, your frequentCupertinos add great hilarity to this thread. However, they are also signs of a deficient intellect. “They” must have gotten to you with their nefarious “toxins”.

    The average age of those overseas at that time was 20 and more than 60% are dead and others disabled for life.

    I think this would have been a bit hard to cover up. A citation for this statistic is needed. A 60% death rate among soldiers in a war where there were few battlefield casualties is something everyone would notice.

    Conerned @106 – I think even Alex Jones would find Becky to be an embarrassment.

  109. #109 DW
    April 18, 2011

    @ Becky: “Killing Our Own” is a film by Gary Null. Citing him for any reason other than inciting uproarious laughter is not realistic . Plug his name into the SearchBox at the top of the page and you will get our esteemed host’s opinion on him ( also see quackwatch; wiki-pedia) Null calls himself an “expert” on health, economics, and politics- and I might call myself the Queen of the Faeries- it doesn’t make it so. Trust me.

  110. #110 cynic
    April 18, 2011

    I’d go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

    I realize this comment is very late to the party, but the above comment is just… absurd.

    As Counsel for the Accused, I’d place the burden of proof on your vaccine, since it is you making the claim that by being vaccinated, the index (defendant) would NOT spread disease and that the afflicted would be spared the illness. Meaning: you’d be required to demonstrate that by the defendant’s receiving said vaccine that they would have in fact been free from spreading the pathogen in question and that the plaintiff would have resisted infection – their own immune status notwithstanding. Of course, in order to determine this, you’d be venturing into the same kind of direct infection demonstration that you claim to be unethical, though enquiring minds would want to know regardless. This makes your position not only hypocritical, but entirely superficial and perhaps that is the point, since vaccine efficacy will prove nothing, and you know this. If you want to talk about negligence, then be specific – anyone can be sued for that, including you. So be careful.

    Carry on.

  111. #111 Becky
    April 19, 2011

    Wow guys!!! Did you all think up these witty entertaining comments all by your little selves or did your group home counselor help you? Since the articles I suggested obviously were still over your empty heads I have one more that most likely will fall into your level, Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss. Don’t be afraid now, the cat in the hat is not real.

    Quackwatch, Snopes and Factcheck are all propaganda sites for the 100th monkey types.

    @DW..you probably are Queen of the Faeries or you wouldn’t have used that suggestive illustration. Is this a practice run for the real ‘coming out’ later?

  112. #112 JayK
    April 19, 2011

    So no, you don’t have any credible information to share, you demand that others do the work and search through conspiracy theory laden crap in order to determine the truth about vaccines. Good job, Becky, you’ve basically made it clear that you’re suffering from mental conditions or you’re a habitual liar. That probably isn’t an exclusive “or” situation.

    You’d be better off telling us all about the black helicopters that fly over your house while planes drop chemtrails to try to quiet your truth-telling.

  113. #113 dedicated lurker
    April 19, 2011

    Oh, the cat in the hat’s not real, of course.

    The fish is though. We threw a party for him when I was three.

    It’s nice how you throw in snopes, since the site doesn’t have any vaccine related pages (there are pages about bloody needles in public places though).

  114. #114 JayK
    April 19, 2011

    @cynic: Prove that you understand the concept of herd immunity, compromised immunity and efficacy of vaccines. Or are you just taking a contrary position to try to prove something, because your post indicated nothing more than a confused mess of logic. Orac and many others that are familiar with the immunology branch of medicine are aware of a future showdown, probably not far off, where it will either be mandated vaccines for everyone under a certain age with no philosophical excuses, or there will be a renewed focus on forensics of viral vectors with legal or financial repercussions for those that endangered the public.

    What negligence do you think Orac or any other immunologist has shown by suggesting these alternatives?

  115. #115 Becky
    April 19, 2011

    @JayK…I did my research all by myself. Do you expect to sit on your ass and be spoon fed? You are so pious and mind controlled it would not matter what evidence was presented to you, you would never see the truth.

    Killing the messenger has always been the desired outcome even though it changed nothing. If what I have said is so silly why all the chaos? Others have made statements opposite to most of the ones here but have not received the attention I have. Why? I am trying to warn, alert, tell the truth and am putting myself up for pure hate and ridicule. In the end it will all boil down to the fact that some want the truth no matter how bad it is and some will prefer to remain in the safety of the herd. I am just exercising my rights as an American to all my rights to speak freely. Everyone here no matter how they disagree with my opinions should be willing to die for my rights to do so. If we ever lose those rights we will all be damned. If we only see one side of any argument we will never know the truth. If we fear what someone else may think of us for daring to step out of the approved box we will willingly allow ourselves to be imprisoned by ideals we never chose.

    You think people like me are conspiracy nuts but did you realize our Founders feared most the Illuminati and Charter Banks? If you read their private letters on these issues you will see they could be talking about todays world events. Today the Illuminati rules this globe and the Charter Banks (Fed Reserve) owns us. Most people in this country think the Fed Reserve is part of the Federal Gov. but is a private banking cartel owned by the richest and most evil men in the world. It has nothing to do with our Federal government and never has. Maybe if you read Agenda 21 and Global 2000 that pertain to our era you might begin to see the ugly truth. The neocons of this age designed those documents and should scare the living hell out of anyone who has any brain matter left at all.

    @lurker…can you read? snopes has tons of pure garbage on vaccinations, all in the same usual lying manner they approach anything. Do you know how to search a site? You are full of shit. Go to google and type in snopes and vaccinations. How sad that grown people don’t know how to do a web search. jeez

  116. #116 novalox
    April 19, 2011

    I see that becky’s back, with a whole new boatload of crazy loaded in her post.

    I keep think that she has to be a Poe, with all of the conspiracy theory mongering, all the ad hominems, and all of the pseudoscientific thinking that she keeps loading into her post.

    But who knows?

  117. #117 Militant Agnostic
    April 19, 2011

    T. Bruce McNeely @306

    Actually Becky supplied lots of citations. However since they were from the Invisible Web, they were invisible to us vaccine damaged sheeple. Just like the sources of the voices in her head.

    Becky – if you are a Poe, we already have Mad the Swine on science blogs and you are not in the same league. If you are not a Poe, get help – seriously, before you destroy your life.

  118. #118 Orac
    April 19, 2011

    You think people like me are conspiracy nuts

    That’s because in your case, you are. You even have “88” within your e-mail address! I know what that means.

  119. #119 dedicated lurker
    April 19, 2011

    I just realized what it means myself.

    I feel sick.

  120. #120 Antaeus Feldspar
    April 19, 2011

    Meaning: you’d be required to demonstrate that by the defendant’s receiving said vaccine that they would have in fact been free from spreading the pathogen in question and that the plaintiff would have resisted infection – their own immune status notwithstanding.

    Highly unlikely view of the legal system you have there, where you have to demonstrate what the outcome would have been of one specific case that didn’t happen.

    Let’s say you are a janitor in an office building and you’ve just finished spreading a very slippery cleaning solution on a floor where people need to walk frequently. You have signs that you’re supposed to put up that say “Wet Floor – Caution” but you actively decide not to put those signs up.

    If someone comes along and slips and falls and injures themselves on the floor that you made slippery, do they have to prove that they could not possibly have caught themselves after slipping? Do they have to prove that they could not possibly have slipped on any floor other than the one that you made slippery?

    No; they just need to prove that you committed a negligent act which materially increased the chances of you suffering the harm which you did, in fact, suffer. And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

  121. #121 NJ
    April 19, 2011

    Orac @ 318:

    You even have “88” within your e-mail address! I know what that means.

    dedicated lurker @ 319:

    I just realized what it means myself.

    I feel sick.

    Point of clarification: Does Godwin’s law no longer apply when the poster in question is, in fact, the real thing?

  122. #122 Militant Agnostic
    April 19, 2011

    dedicated lurker @319

    What is the significance of 88?

  123. #124 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 19, 2011
  124. #125 Militant Agnostic
    April 19, 2011

    I get it now 88 = HH = Neo Nazi

  125. #126 Orac
    April 19, 2011

    Point of clarification: Does Godwin’s law no longer apply when the poster in question is, in fact, the real thing?

    I don’t know.

    In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn’t know the significance of “88” and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address. However, given the type of rhetoric she’s been laying down, I tend to doubt that that’s the case. The “88” is consistent with her rhetoric.

  126. #127 Anton P. Nym
    April 19, 2011

    In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn’t know the significance of “88” and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address.

    Or that Becky is 22-23 years of age right now… and is unaware of the hazards of using such personal identifying information as year of birth in public fora.

    Just offering an alternative; I draw no conclusions, as my personal sanity-filter seems to interfere with my attempts to read Becky’s screeds.

    — Steve

  127. #128 Gray Falcon
    April 19, 2011

    In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn’t know the significance of “88” and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address. However, given the type of rhetoric she’s been laying down, I tend to doubt that that’s the case. The “88” is consistent with her rhetoric.

    True. Regardless, even if she isn’t one of them, she is still using the methods of tyrants: Demanding prosecution for baseless accusations, assuming her claims will be seen as true by default without presenting her own evidence, outright dismissing evidence counter to her claims. Case in point:

    I did my research all by myself. Do you expect to sit on your ass and be spoon fed? You are so pious and mind controlled it would not matter what evidence was presented to you, you would never see the truth.

    See what I mean? Becky, if you’re reading this, JayK was not being lazy, he was expecting you to provide evidence to back up your accusations. You do have evidence, right?

  128. #129 JayK
    April 19, 2011

    Thank you, Becky, you made it all worthwhile. This was like a wonderful little present you gave me, all full of crazy wrapped in a bow of lunacy.

  129. #130 Krebiozen
    April 19, 2011

    Becky:

    Great cut and paste job and how dare you criticize Bean when you are a liar. You wouldn’t know one end of a q-tip from the other. You are the one who has been lied to and now you pass it along and add to it as you go.

    Cut and paste job? I wrote that entirely using my own brain – you should try that some time. I downloaded the book you referred to, I read some random passages from it, which all struck me as bat-shit crazy, and quoted one particularly idiotic passage that I know from personal experience to be completely inaccurate. Are you seriously claiming that antibodies don’t exist?

    As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con.

    If that’s true and you decided that McBean (you might try to get her name right!) is a reliable source of information on vaccines, you really need to read a bit more, maybe take some classes in basic biology and immunology. Try reading Seth Mnookin’s ‘The Panic Virus’. It’s written by a layman and is a good introduction to the subject for someone with no medical background.

    When one of the anti-vaxxers you like so much refers to a study, please take the trouble to find the actual study and read it, or at the very least the abstract. Then compare what it says to what the anti-vaxxer claims it says. I have found that it has almost always been misquoted, distorted or completely misrepresented. Do the same with what you read on this blog, or the science based medicine blog. Then go away and have a long hard think about who is lying.

  130. #131 DW
    April 19, 2011

    @ Becky: “Queen of the Faeries”** is a reference to a literary creation- I might have said, “Queen of the Elves” or “Alice in Wonderland” instead- alluding to the fact that Null’s expertise is indeed fictional.

    In order for you to believe in his ( or Adams’ or Wakefield’s) tales of the dark side, you would have to dis-regard most professional associations, universities, scientific lit & consensus, governmental agencies, and the media at large, internationally, and believe instead a person with dodgy credentials ( spurious, non-existent, or struck-off, respectively), an axe to grind, products to sell, and ( probably) a saviour complex to boot. If there truly *is* a deeply intertwined, corrupt matrix, why would the person to discover this be a borderline incompetent educationally who happens to have terrific marketting skills? They all want to sell you something. There are cheaper ways to get an education than listening to these guys.

    ** BTW, it’s Spenser. And don’t diss the gay men: because they also are sometimes the recipients of harsh, sexist vitriol, they can be sympathetic and valuable friends to *women like us*.

    Hope this isn’t a double.

  131. #132 ArtK
    April 19, 2011

    @Becky

    As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con.

    Would that be 1 or 2 books?

  132. #133 Prometheus
    April 19, 2011

    Jan (@290) comments:

    “Blaming themselves for having kids vaccinated and then blaming the vaccine is way easier to cope, then facing the realization that a defect in their genes is part of the cause.”

    It’s even worse than that – by vigorously denying that genetic defects have any role in autism (or by making them secondary to “environmental exposure” – i.e. mercury, aluminium or “toxins”-NOS), the “anything-but-genes-causes-autism” advocates are implying that since the parents caused the problem (by getting their children vaccinated), they are morally obligated to solve the problem (by chelating, HBOT, megavitamins, supplements, magic water, herbs, etc.) and don’t dare ask for any supporting data.

    After all, those negligent “trust-the-government” parents didn’t ask for any data before they allowed their children to be injected with “toxins”, pig viruses and other icky things, did they?

    But wait! There’s more!

    As it turns out, the data suggest that the majority of “sporadic” autism case (i.e. cases in families with no prior history of autism – the majority of cases) are due to de novo mutations. The parents don’t have “defective” genes – there was a mutation in the sperm or egg cell that caused the autism. In other words, it was a completely random event, not foreseeable or preventable. A genetic cause of autism lets the parents “off the hook”, something that most anti-autism advocacy groups find intolerable because without parental guilt, they have nothing.

    Becky is such a cornucopia of crazy that it’s hard to know where (or if) to begin. But let me point out the most curious of her non-stop string of insults:

    “You wouldn’t know one end of a q-tip from the other.”

    Here’s the funny part: Q-tips (R) have bilateral symmetry – the ends are identical. Without marking one end, nobody can tell one end from the other. It may be that Becky is simply too far gone to realise this, but it could be a subtle hint that this is all a joke. Is it possible that Becky is an elaborate “Poe”? If so, she’s got the stream-of-consciousness word salad ad hominem ’til you drop patter absolutely perfect. In fact, she’s so perfect that she seems to be a parody of the genuine full-cavas-jacket anti-vaccination loons.

    Either way, she’s been entertaining.

    Prometheus

  133. #134 Antaeus Feldspar
    April 19, 2011

    I keep think that she has to be a Poe, with all of the conspiracy theory mongering, all the ad hominems, and all of the pseudoscientific thinking that she keeps loading into her post.

    Frankly, I think “Becky” is the same person as “TRT“.

  134. #135 cynic
    April 19, 2011

    @AF #320: Highly unlikely view of the legal system you have there, where you have to demonstrate what the outcome would have been of one specific case that didn’t happen

    I am very comfortable in my view of the legal system. Your attempted distortion of my point is duly noted. In order to sue a person due to their vaccination status and claim negligence, you must first demonstrate that receipt of the vaccine would have prevented the index case from spreading disease in the first place. Since vaccination with bacterial vaccines don’t prevent carriage or transmission, and live viral vaccines have the capactiy to shed, or leave the vaccinee asymptomatic – where shall we start? When you present a jury of 12 citizens with the fact that, “we don’t know how well vaccines prevent disease because we only measure sera and generally exclude vaccinated people epidemiologically due to their vaccination status” – what other reasonable questions might they start to ask?

    If a person behaves negligently with respect to infectious disease that is entirely different, vaccination status and infectious disease (vaccine available or otherwise) notwithstanding. If you are meaning to suggest that not getting vaccinated is negligent, then prove it. Tell me how the boy next door that plays his xbox all day while eating cheetos is being harmed by the girl across the street who eats a sensible diet, gets exercise and fresh air/sunshine but hasn’t been vaccinated… and he can blame his susceptibility on her because she’s the closest unvaccinated person during an outbreak? If you mean to do so with a clinical trial regarding seroconversion, good luck with that and see how far that gets in the hands of someone competent…slippery slope. I, for one, welcome it.

    And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

    The evidence does no such thing.

  135. #136 Narad
    April 19, 2011

    Frankly, I think “Becky” is the same person as “TRT”.

    “The Radiance Technique,” or testosterone replacement therapy?

  136. #137 Composer99
    April 19, 2011

    Someone upthread says:

    And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

    To which cynic replies:

    The evidence does no such thing.

    Care to explain whither smallpox, cynic? Or why measles is not endemic in the US and has to come from the outside world? Or how as of April 12 2011 there were a total of 88 reported cases of polio worldwide (Source)?

    I hope for your sake that your ability to parse evidence in the legal setting is better than your ability to review evidence in epidemiology.

  137. #138 Antaeus Feldspar
    April 19, 2011

    In order to sue a person due to their vaccination status and claim negligence, you must first demonstrate that receipt of the vaccine would have prevented the index case from spreading disease in the first place.

    There are two ways to interpret this statement.

    It can be interpreted as “you must demonstrate that, in general, vaccination strongly reduces the chances of people contracting and spreading disease.” It does, of course. Cynic may claim that it does not, but that’s of no importance; he could just as well be claiming “you’d never convince a jury of twelve citizens that we actually landed on the moon; no one would ever believe it, not when the evidence actually points to the CIA faking the landing in a studio in Arizona!”

    Or the statement can be interpreted as “As a matter of law, you would need to prove not only that appropriate vaccination of the defendant could have been expected to disrupt the chain of disease transmission that led to the plaintiff’s injury, but that it would without question have done so.” This is a ridiculous proposition; it’s basically demanding that a crystal ball be brought into the courtroom.

    If this ludicrous line of logic was actually how the legal system worked, then no drunk driver could ever be convicted of manslaughter, because no one could prove that the person who had been hit at 6:55 PM and died of their injuries at 6:57 PM might not have had a fatal heart attack at 6:56 PM. That’s why in the real world, we don’t depend on evidence which is by definition impossible to get, namely, proof of what would have happened in a set of circumstances other than those which actually took place in reality.

  138. #139 Becky
    April 19, 2011

    @Prometheus and other such critters: You must buy the cheap dollar store swabs. You seem like the cheap sort. Anyone who is not blind should be able to look at a Q-Tip brand and see one side is thicker than the other.

    To prove one side has more cotton than the other put a real Q Tip in the freezer for one hour. Take it out and drop immediately into boiling water and you will be amazed at the results.

  139. #140 ArtK
    April 20, 2011

    Becky… that makes your original insult relevant how…?

    Here’s a clue for you, since you seem to have run out. Prometheus, et al, were mocking you for a totally ridiculous “insult.” Going all science-y in response just makes it even more ridiculous.

    In other words, when you’re in a hole over your head, stop digging.

  140. #141 Becky
    April 20, 2011

    ArtK…get over yourself. You would be the king of insults if you really knew what you were doing. You are a failure. I can prove my point but you are afraid I am correct so you just snap off another childish remark. How old are you, 12? I don’t give a rats ass what you or your little clueless playmates think. This is a public forum and I will post what I please, when I please and how I please. If you don’t like it go sit in the corner and shut your mouth. There is nothing you can do about it knuckle dragger.

  141. #142 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    @Becky: Sure, you can post what you want, but don’t be surprised if people call you out on it. After all, it is a public forum.

    By the way, a very serious charge has been leveled against you in comment 318. Do you believe this accusation is justified?

  142. #143 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    Correction, this isn’t a public forum, this is Orac’s forum! He gets to decide what gets posted, so don’t be rude.

  143. #144 ArtK
    April 20, 2011

    @Becky, you’re right! You win! I bow to your superior insulting ability. I don’t know how I could have thought I could compete against your intelligent and clever bon mot. I’m taking careful note. I may be only 13 (plus a few years), but I’m willing to learn at the feet of a master. By the way, I’m getting my arms shortened next week — that has been a problem for me for quite some time.

    Now that we’ve determined that you’re the queen of insults here, why don’t we get back to the subject at hand. Which was vaccines and your complete lack of evidence for any of your assertions. Or, as Gray Falcon pointed out, the topic of #318.

  144. #145 Becky
    April 20, 2011

    The fool who posted 318 needs his head examined. I am a lifelong piano player and the 88 refers to 88 keys. It takes a real low life to insinuate something sinister with no cause or proof. Some people will stoop to any low disgusting level for pure spite. Who is the real conspiracy nut? People like him make me puke. Yes, this IS a public forum and if that dirtbag can use libel against me I will most certainly post as I please without having to resort to slander/libel which are both felonies. What an ‘ethical’ site owner!

  145. #146 novalox
    April 20, 2011

    @becky

    Honestly, the way that you post, with all of your baseless ad hominems and insinuations, and with your particular email address, it wold make some people think about your underlying attitudes.

  146. #147 ArtK
    April 20, 2011

    Well, thankee for that explanation. If you had bothered to learn anything about the boss of the blog you so blithely bash, you would have known why his assumption was reasonable. But somehow I don’t think that looking outside of your personal echo chamber happens very often.

    You’re wrong about this being a public forum. Orac can ban you any time he likes. He probably won’t because people like you are amusing, but he still can.

    Second, throwing “libel” and “slander” around sounds great, but is an empty threat. Unless you’re in the UK, when you might have more of a chance. There’s that whole “burden of proof” thing here in the US. But it does make a nice rhetorical flourish. Definitely a step up from Q-Tips.

    So, how ’bout that vaccine evidence? Hmmm? Wakefield “vindicated,” how? How many books have you read, “pro and con?” Care to name just a few of them? We’re all about learning new stuff, so I’m sure we’d like to hear about your sources.

  147. #148 Becky
    April 20, 2011

    @ArtK…”Second, throwing “libel” and “slander” around sounds great, but is an empty threat. Unless you’re in the UK, when you might have more of a chance. There’s that whole “burden of proof” thing here in the US.”

    I suggest you take a look at the current laws on the issue of internet libel and the ‘proof’ is right on this site written by a man who obviously will write anything to get even, because in his own words “and I know what that means”. He is telling everyone on this forum he knows secret things about me and I am some evil character comparable to Hitler. That IS libel.

    I tell you what, keep your site and only allow those who march lockstep with the ‘group’. Just how far will you people go to illiminate an opposing voice? I would say there is nothing you won’t do and that is pretty scary and dangerous.

  148. #149 novalox
    April 20, 2011

    @becky

    Playing the persecution card isn’t going to win you any sympathy here, nor will it help your “argument”.

    And judging by your behavior and postings here, most people would have to wonder about your underlying assumptions and attitudes.

  149. #150 Chris
    April 20, 2011

    Oh, wow. Becky is hilarious! And not just she decided to type my name multiple times because I had the audacity to ask for citations. Was I supposed to pop out of a mirror* and provide math/science/logic lessons with that incantation?

    * Because I spent most of my youth in Latin America I learned about the legend of “La Bruja.” Unfortunately Google failed me and I mostly got links to a bad Mexican horror movie (and I have watched a few of those on TV in Venezuela and Panama!).

  150. #151 Krebiozen
    April 20, 2011

    I have been reading more of McBean’s ‘The Poisoned Needle’. It is a mind-boggling mixture of quotes from 19th and early 20th century germ theory denialists, doctors bemoaning the poor state of medicine back then, gross misunderstandings (McBean apparently thought that vaccines were injections of antibodies) and outrageous hyperbole. I am very grateful to Becky for drawing it to my attention.

    Here’s my favorite quote so far:

    Vaccination, instead of being the promised blessing to the world, has proved to be a curse of such sweeping devastation that it has caused more death and disease than war, pestilence, and plague combined. There is no scourge (with the possible exception of atomic radiation) that is more destructive to our nation’s health than this monument of human deception — this slayer of the innocent — this crippler of body and brain — THE POISONED NEEDLE.

    Breathtaking.

  151. #152 Orac
    April 20, 2011

    The fool who posted 318 needs his head examined. I am a lifelong piano player and the 88 refers to 88 keys. It takes a real low life to insinuate something sinister with no cause or proof. Some people will stoop to any low disgusting level for pure spite. Who is the real conspiracy nut? People like him make me puke. Yes, this IS a public forum and if that dirtbag can use libel against me I will most certainly post as I please without having to resort to slander/libel which are both felonies. What an ‘ethical’ site owner!

    I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

    That being said, I would still offer a friendly word of advice, although I suspect you won’t be smart enough to take it. On most general discussion forums, particularly ones where politics is discussed, “88” really does signify neo-Nazi beliefs. This is widely known. Coupling your anti-government rhetoric with “88” and the apparently erroneous conclusion that I made was really not all that unreasonable at all. I’ve been in the biz of combatting online Holocaust denial for well over a decade now, and, whether you realize it or not, all the signs were there. That’s why you might want to consider changing your handle. Seriously. I’m surprised this is the first time this has happened.

    As for libel, well, first, neither libel nor slander are felonies. They are civil infractions. Second, it’s not libel or slander if the person making the charge either doesn’t know them to be false or doesn’t publish them without a “reckless disregard for the truth,” neither of which apply here because i both pointed out that I could be wrong and there could be another explanation and I apologized and retracted once my mistake was point out.

    None of this, however, should be construed as any sort of admission that you aren’t a truly irritating troll who has contributed nothing of value to this discussion other than insults, nonsense, misinformation about vaccines, and Tea Party-steeped ramblings that even most Tea Party members would find not too intelligent.

  152. #153 Anton P. Nym
    April 20, 2011

    @cynic:

    Tell me how the boy next door that plays his xbox all day while eating cheetos is being harmed by the girl across the street who eats a sensible diet, gets exercise and fresh air/sunshine but hasn’t been vaccinated… and he can blame his susceptibility on her because she’s the closest unvaccinated person during an outbreak?

    Ironically, in terms of epidemiology the boy on the Xbox is being more responsible than than the girl. Nutrition and exercise have many health benefits, yes, but from an epidemic’s point of view they’re negligible. (Unless we’re talking about severe malnutrition, but if the boy’s on an Xbox he’s living in a First World environment and doesn’t have that level of deprivation no matter how Cheeto-enriched his diet is.)

    Far more important than nutrition and exercise here is ISOLATION. Before the advent of vaccines, quarantine was the most effective means of combatting communicable illnesses because it prevented victims from exposing those not yet infected.

    Xbox Lad is playing alone on his console; Vitamin Girl is presumably interacting with many others during her jaunts into the fresh air. From a contagion’s perspective it’s far easier to reach Vitamin Girl, and therefor she’s at much higher risk.

    Thus, I (in part) refute thee.

    — Steve

  153. #154 Composer99
    April 20, 2011

    What put Becky’s credibility to the test was the whole “Invisible Web” talk – and then the supporting cites were from NaturalNews and whale.to.

    If that is the best the “Invisible Web” can bring to the table then Becky will just have to get used to not being taken seriously at Respectful Insolence.

  154. #155 triskelethecat
    April 20, 2011

    At least Becky is rather amusing. Compared to the Thing and little augie at least. Cynic is just boring, too.

    BTW…where’s silly Sid? We haven’t heard from him in a long time.

  155. #156 JohnV
    April 20, 2011

    Say his name 3 times in front of a mirror and he will appear.

  156. #157 triskelethecat
    April 20, 2011

    I didn’t know Sid was Beetlejuice.

  157. #158 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    Has to be added:
    http://xkcd.com/555/

  158. #159 TBruce (new sig for old guy)
    April 20, 2011

    Becky re 88:

    So with all your access to the Invisible Web and your super ability to suss out Sekrit Intrigues, you had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that putting 88 into your email address was a flag for neo-Nazism?

    From urbandictionary.com:

    Nazi skinhead code for Heil Hitler. H being the 8th letter of the alphabet, therefore 88=HH=Heil Hitler. Often found at the end of Nazi members’ e-mail addressees and signatures.

    Right.

  159. #160 JohnV
    April 20, 2011

    RE: 88

    I don’t consider myself the most dense person around but I had no idea that it was a potential signifier of nazi affiliation. I mean I even watch all the dumb shows on the history channel about nazis and aliens or nazis and norse gods or whatever else they push. Learn something new every day woot.

    That said, I also didn’t immediately think of piano keys despite (sort of) learning how to play piano a few years ago for a music theory class :p

    I would have assumed birth year or a fan of Michael Irvin or something. Sadly I know that was Irvin’s number w/o looking it up.

  160. #161 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    Point is, something with a possible sinister origin has as least a dozen possible non-sinister explanations surrounding it, and should not be used as basis for an accusation alone. Just keep that in mind, Becky.

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