Turning the informed consent tables on the anti-vaccine movement

One of the major tactics of the anti-vaccine movement has been a disingenuous demand for more "informed consent." Of course, their idea of "informed consent" is anything but informed. Indeed, I have referred to it as "misinformed consent," because what the anti-vaccine movement does is a pathetic parody of the "informed" part of informed consent. The reason is because the anti-vaccine movement exaggerates the risks of vaccination beyond what science supports, and it does it intentionally. Autism, asthma, autoimmune disease, neurodevelopmental disorders, all of these have been blamed on vaccination without any good scientific evidence to support a link between any of these conditions and vaccination. If in fact these conditions were linked with vaccination at anywhere near the rate that the antivaccine movement claims they are, anti-vaccinationists might have a point, but they aren't and they don't.

Instead, they frighten parents into thinking that by vaccinating their children they're playing a game akin to Russian Roulette. Worse, they persuade parents of children with autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders that they are somehow responsible for their child's disability. Indeed, sometimes the guilt is palpable in some parents who have come to believe that vaccines cause autism. They really do believe that they are responsible for the plight of their children. That belief is based on misinformation and the attribution of risks to vaccines that are not supported by any good science or convincing evidence, but they really do believe it, and they really suffer because of that belief. Even a clear Plexiglass box of blinking lights like Orac can't help but be moved, even as he realizes that the source of the guilt these parents feel is not supported by science, but rather by anecdote, confusing correlation with causation, and confirmation bias.

Be that as it may, a common technique of anti-vaccinationists is to demand extreme forms of misinformed consent whereby they demand that pediatricians present parents with various versions of forms to sign or to demand that pediatricians guarantee that there will be no vaccine complications and accept liability if there are, such as this Warranty of Vaccine Safety. Of course, such warranties are nothing more than a ploy to intimidate pediatricians by trying to force them to promise something that can never be guaranteed, namely absolute safety, which is why I like the tack that the legislature in Washington appears to be taking:

Worried by outbreaks of contagious diseases such as measles and whooping cough, public-health officials are supporting a proposal to make it more difficult for parents to avoid school-entry immunization requirements.

The measure under consideration has drawn strong support in both houses of the Legislature and faced little opposition until recently, when vaccine-resisting parents mobilized to pack hearings and lobby lawmakers.

The proposal would require parents who seek exemption from current state law to submit proof that a health provider has informed them of the risks and benefits of immunization.

Currently, parents can sign a form themselves to claim religious, philosophical or personal reasons for refusing to immunize their children before enrolling them in school or day care.

Public-health officials say the bill is needed because immunization rates are falling, parents are receiving sketchy information from the Internet and the state has made it too convenient for them to skip immunization.

Now there's an idea! Fight fire with fire! If parents want an exemption to allow them to skip vaccinations for their children and thus decrease herd immunity, producing a concomitant increase in the risk of outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases, then make sure their decision is based on solid, science-based information. If they want to jeopardize others by refusing to vaccinate their children, then make them justify it. As is ointed out in the article, convenience is not an excuse for not vaccinating, and countering misinformation is critical. Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child. Of course, the anti-vaccine movement is all for personal responsibility, except when it isn't, if you know what I mean. Anti-vaccinationists are all for accountability, except when that accountability is directed at them when the consequences of their refusal to vaccinate turns ugly. Then, suddenly, it's not their fault:

"This bill implies that I am reckless, irresponsible and uninformed, when in fact that is the complete opposite," bristled Sarah Rowe, a Bainbridge Island mother who attended a Senate committee hearing last week with her 5-year-old daughter, whose neurological disorder was caused by a vaccine, according to Rowe.

Michael Belkin, also from Bainbridge, told the committee that as a statistics-savvy financial analyst, he doesn't want to listen to "some doctor's propaganda."

To Sarah Rowe, I'd say: Yes, you are reckless, irresponsible, and misinformed. In fact, if you and parents like you weren't reckless, irresponsible, and misinformed, a bill like this wouldn't be necessary. But you are, and it is. Ditto Michael Belkin. Perhaps you remember Michael Belkin? I do. Michael Belkin is the execrable musician who penned such mind-meltingly bad songs such as "Vaccine Gestapo" and "Get Your Mandates Out of My Body." Bad music, bad science, Belkin's got it all, all wrapped up into a mind-meltingly stupid songs that even Andrew Wakefield looked uncomfortable singing along with.

Here's hoping this bill passes, although I'm not optimistic. The reason I'm not so optimistic is because Washington already has one of the highest rate of vaccine exemptions in the country and, more importantly, because the anti-vaccine movement has gotten wind of it:

Ezra Eickmeyer, representing the National Vaccine Information Center, an anti-vaccine group, noted a 2001 survey in which 23 percent of pediatricians said they "always" or "sometimes" tell vaccine-refusing parents they no longer can be the child's doctor.

Eickmeyer says that as though it were a bad thing. At least the journalist accurately described the NVIC as an "anti-vaccine" group. All too often it manages to get a pass, being described as a "vaccine safety" group or a "vaccine safety watchdog" when it is nothing of the sort.

Personally, I like the idea behind the law being proposed. If anti-vaccinationists are going to weaken herd immunity and endanger the children of others through their misinformed, pseudoscience-informed beliefs, then the least society should do is to make them jump through a few more hoops in order to claim their precious vaccine exemptions.

More like this

Dr. Bob Sears is the bane of science- and evidence-based pediatricians everywhere. As pediatrician Dr. John Snyder relates, whenever he hears a parent say "I was reading Dr. Sears" or sees a patient in his office holding a copy of Dr. Sears' The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Choice for Your Child…
Excellent! It's about time the bigger guns started getting involved. Remember the anti-vaccine ads being run on the big CBS JumboTron in Times Square? Well, the American Academy of Pediatrics has finally weighted in to complaint. Here's the letter: April 13, 2011 Mr. Wally Kelly Chairman and CEO…
As Vaccine Awareness Week, originally proclaimed by Joe Mercola and Barbara Loe Fisher to spread pseudoscience about vaccines far and wide and then coopted by me and several other bloggers to counter that pseudoscience, draws to a close, I was wondering what to write about. After all, from my…
It's official now. The U.S. is on track to accumulate more cases of measles than it has seen in a decade: The United States seems to be on track to have more measles cases than any year in more than a decade, with virtually all cases linked to other countries, including Europe where there's a big…

Hear, hear! If there is anyone that reads here regularly and lives in Washington, contact your state legislators and voice your support.

To the antivaccinationists I'd say this: The law is not taking away any of your rights. You can still act the fool and put your child and everyone around them at risk. You just need to show that you actually sought out legitimate advice first and are still willingly ignoring it.

Of course, for them they'll say - well, I don't believe anything the doctor says, because obviously they are in the pocket of Big Pharma (unless their doctor tells them exactly what they want to hear).

Sounds like Jay could open up a franchise practice in Washington State to take advantage of all of the parents who'd want a doctor that would tell them whatever they wanted to hear (for a small fee, of course).

Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

I'd insist on an exception for those who cannot be vaccinated for (evidence-supported) medical reasons. If little Susie is one of the few that does have a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, or is immuno-compromised, then her parents are minimizing the risk as well as they can. It might be a rare case compared to those who are misinformed about the risks, but it is based on good evidence rather than misinformation.

By Becca Stareyes (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Ooh, I like this! Where can I get more info and eventually follow up to see if the bill becomes law? If it succeeds, I'd like to pass it on to my PA representative to get something like this done here. In the past 6 months, there has been one suspected pertussis case at my daughter's daycare and one confirmed case at my son's parochial school. I have no way of knowing if they're due to lack of vaccination, but I think a law like this would go a long way to reduce the possibility of outbreaks in the future.

By gpmtrixie (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Becca Stareyes

Even the parents of kids who cannot be immunized due to medical reasons should show that they have spoken to a physician. Keep in mind, the bill is not taking away the right to religious, philosophical or personal (or medical) reasons, but rather just requiring that the parents actually show that they've gotten informed about their decision.

Great post! Anti-vaxers are always claiming that there are doctors that agree with their position, so really it shouldn't be so hard for them to get a doctor to justify their decision, right? None of their rights are being obstructed with this law. They are just being asked to be responsible and accountable for their (mis)information. I certainly think that is not only reasonable, but should be expected.

It's encouraging to hear that both houses have supported this legislation in WA. Now, my only hope is that pro-vax parents will turn out to support this bill with the same fervor as those who oppose it.

Hilarious. They couldn't make it any more clear that they have zero interest in facts.

Looks like a good bill. It seems to have had some bipartisan support, with 7 Dem and 4 GOP co-sponsors. However, when it came up for a vote, there were 11 NAY: 1 Democrat and 10 conservative Republicans.
So lets not go to the "Of course there's opposition, since Washington is full of latte sipping hippies who swallow all the BS on HuffPo" smack. OK?

@ Becca and Todd W. Medical exemptions are available in all 50 states and a physician must sign off for a medical exemption. So they are tacit for seeing a physician first and are also not included in any of these bills.

In news from the front**...

In NJ, anti-vaccinationists ( e.g. NJCVC; LKH) have long been trying to acquire a "philosophical exemption" and have found support from the Assembly's Charlotte Vandervalk (R- Westwood).

Since last summer the religious exemption has been loosened to allow virtually *any* objection to be classified as religious. This has been met by multi-pronged legislative pushback by Health Committee Chair Conaway, an MD (D- Burlington), and in the Senate by Health Committee Chair, Loretta Weinberg ( D-Teaneck)(see njsendems.com), who seeks to clarify religious exemptions.

A small mis-informed group( NJ Coalition for Vaccination Choice, led by LKH/ website), mis-guided by NVIC, AoA, and the "usual suspects", has provided vocal support ( as well as phone and e-mail haranguing of legislators) to that bad idea that vaccines are dangerous. And, ironically, the battle of opposing legislators is in my own backyard ( Vandervalk vs. Weinberg).

** I've always wanted to say that.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

I was born in and lived most of my life in Washington State. I can assure you that it is a repository of all things wooish (a large chunk of the population having migrated from California), of which Bainbridge Island is just one example. The exemption on the school registration form is so simple--I've used it myself because my child had a series of colds and was behind in his shots (he got them all, eventually). These people are very well-educated, in the sense that they have gone to college and often have advanced degrees; but they are particularly predisposed to the "belief syndrome" that plagues humanity.

The proposed law may help, but it mostly sounds like a lot of paperwork that won't fundamentally affect people's most cherished beliefs.

Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

Yeh, Yeh, Yeh, Boss.

And then, and then we could pass a law that says you have take a test in order to vote. If you don't pass you don't vote.

And then, and then we can pass a law where prospective parents have to take a test to see if they are fit by government standards to be parents. If they don't pass then they can't have kids. If they violate the law, then we sterilize them.

Let's take this county back!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Silly Augie doesn't seem to recognize that there is no meaningful connection between these things.

One thing about this article that doesn't make sense to me, "Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child". If the child in question has been vaccinated then how the heck can they get the disease in question?????? That is the whole idea behind getting the vaccinations right? So your argument is very weak to say the least. That is how I see it.

By Cate Winnicki (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Lawrence - in terms of his bill, I am all for the anti-vaxxers using the "I won't believe doctors who are all conspiring with Big Pharma" defense. In fact, if I were to contact any of the lawmakers, I would specifically indicate that this is the type of argument the anti-vaxxers are using.

While politicians aren't all brilliant, there is one thing they know, and that is insulting the medical providers in their district is not an effective approach to getting elected. They have spent their lives shmoozing with doctors, trying to get their money. Hence, if they see the opposition to this bill as being derived from anti-doctor sentiment, it will cause them to dismiss it.

Cate Winnicki:
Vaccines are only about 95% effective at best, so it's still possible for someone to catch the disease after being vaccinated. Likewise, driving defensively won't guarantee that you won't get into a crash of any sort. The best one can hope for is to reduce risks: If everyone drives defensively, the odds of crashes occurring is greatly lowered.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Cate Winnicki

If the child in question has been vaccinated then how the heck can they get the disease in question?????? That is the whole idea behind getting the vaccinations right? So your argument is very weak to say the least. That is how I see it.

Like everything in life, nothing is 100%. There are some who will receive the vaccine and, for whatever reason, will not gain immunity, just like there are those who may not gain immunity after being infected. However, vaccines remain a safe and highly effective public health measure to minimize the spread of disease. See this post for a more in-depth discussion.

-I've used it myself because my child had a series of colds and was behind in his shots (he got them all, eventually).

Actually I'd call that a "temporary medical excemption". My youngest is totally behind schedule for the same reason, one cold and infection after the other all winter long, I hope she can get her last shot soon now that spring has arrived.

@Cate Winnicki:three points:

1)non-responder: vaccine just didn't work
2)too young to be vaccinated
3)medical exemption
Especially the last two groups are especially endangered by by unvaccinated people waning herd-imunity, because for them the diseases are the most dangerous. A 3 weeks old baby can't be vaccinated against whomping-cough, but is most likely to die of it.

@ Cate:

In addition to Gray Falcon and Todd's entirely correct points that vaccination is not 100% effective, there are also people who cannot be vaccinated for various reasons. Allergies to vaccine ingredients, for instance.

For those who live in Washington State this was what I did yesterday:

1) Went to the Find Your Legislator page, filled in my address.

2) Three names (senator, and two representatives) popped up with a link to each.

3) Clicked on the senator's name and got his contact information.

4) Clicked on the "Email" link, which took to a page for me to verify my address to make sure I was in his district.

5) It then led me to a contact form where I had to fill in my address, phone number, etc.

6) Put in the number "5005" in the space for the bill in question, and clicked the "For" button after "Position."

7) I also checked the box for a copy to go to my representatives.

8) In the comment area I explained that my son needed to be protected by herd immunity as an infant for pertussis due to a seizure disorder. And a reminder that the Children's Hospital with many immune compromised kids is in their district.

9) Then clicked on the "Send Message" button.

@Denise @10:19AM
There is also a sham church set up by the anti-vaxers, called "Universal Family Church". No core of beliefs, no services, etc.- only acts as a "religious deferment" trojan horse. It is an insult to anyone with legitimate religious beliefs.

Cate Winnicki:

If the child in question has been vaccinated then how the heck can they get the disease in question??????

Because sometimes they are these two boys. Please read that link. Then come back and explain very carefully why those boys deserved what happened.

Those of us who live in reality know that vaccines are not 100% effective, and that they do wear off. Only the anti-vax crowd claims they should be permanent and 100% effective, that is the Nirvana Fallacy. Think about, if actually getting pertussis means that you are only immune from for five to twenty years, why should the vaccine confer permanent immunity? If you are a parent, you should know that kids can get strep throat more than once (which can become Scarlet Fever).

@ Ted : That isn't needed here because the current exemption is so lax that merely saying the words "religion" or "religious" is enough: thus, it manages to function as the philosophical exemption does in other states.

By Denice Walter (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

"Indeed, sometimes the guilt is palpable in some parents who have come to believe that vaccines cause autism. They really do believe that they are responsible for the plight of their children."

Orac, you got that one backwards. As my ex, and ex-brother-in-law the chiropractor, will assure you, my youngest son's autism is the fault of vaccination(s) [which one, or ones, or whether too many at once, etc., unidentified, but it must be vaccination(s)], or some other cause [something in the water, or air, or fill in the blank, I've lost track of the supposed causes and cures du jours]. It couldn't possibly be anything genetic -- which would mean that ex and ex-brother-in-law might be carrying genes that may have a causal relationship to some type of autism(s). Accordingly, parents have no responsibility for neurological conditions -- since it isn't genetic. Blaming Big Pharma and the medical profession is a better way to avoid feelings of guilt than suggesting that you or your children have genetic screenings. [But, if it is genetic, then it must be limited to my family].

8) In the comment area I explained that my son needed to be protected by herd immunity as an infant for pertussis due to a seizure disorder. And a reminder that the Children's Hospital with many immune compromised kids is in their district.

Your son is the last person that I would vaccinate my child for. Especially as nasty, self-centered, and intolerant as you are. Your treatment of others who question vaccine safety on here is a testament to that.

So if everyone is supposed to vaccinate for your son will you personally take on the responsibility of vaccine damage that is incurred from your emotional plea? No you won't. As a matter of fact you have shown time and time again that if someone brings up vaccine damage on this forum that you go into automatic temporal dismissal and ridicule mode.

You have a different motive than most people who are researching about the safety of vaccinations for their children.

The facade of caring disappears as soon as someone doesn't do what YOU want them to do. It's two-faced.

http://www.adacel-locator.com/support/brochure/adacelpatientbrochure.pdf

"It is unknown whether immunizing adolescents and
adults against pertussis will reduce the risk of transmission
to infants."

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Chris - thanks for the link.

As a parent of young kids, though, here is something that caught my eye:

Naomi Pop, just 14 months old, was among the victims. Her mother, Maria, 20, was not unduly worried when Naomi contracted measles just four weeks before she was due to have the triple jab. She said: âI thought to myself, âMeasles, so what?â I mean, how bad could that be?â

????????????????????????

For pete's sake, when Offspring the Elder was 14 months, we dreaded him getting a bloody ear infection because it made all our lives miserable for 3 days. We have just had RSV through the house with a 6 mo old and a 27 mo old, and that was no fun for anyone either.

"Measles, so what?"

How could anyone be so callous with their 14 mo old child? Boy, I don't get that at all.

The argument I've most often seen trotted out is that this will punish the poor. It goes like this: (1) Doctors, PAs, and APNs, being tools of the establishment, will somehow refuse to sign off on such certifications. (2) Since naturopaths are included within the scope of the law, and they are Good, one will have to go there. (3) Thus, those who cannot afford the sublime and enlightened care of a naturopath will be shut out.

It has a grain of truth, in that it does appear that not everyone who is licensed to provide a vaccine is authorized to provide such a certification. In practice, of course, the point is that not vaccinating, being "the default state of the body," should also be the default state of the State.

Silly Auger,
The government recognizes the VERY small risk of true vaccine injury and has a special court and fund to handle it. Stupid non-risk assessing adults have no such fund setup to cover their lack of intelligent thought or action.

A little more ridicule for the pile everyone else has heaped on you and yours.

Stupid non-risk assessing adults have no such fund setup to cover their lack of intelligent thought or action.

MikeMa

You are an atheist, correct? You have atheist morals and atheist values. The majority of this country does not. The majority of posters here are atheist. I do not follow your religion. Thank you . That is all.

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Augie's comments about eugenics @ 13 is not only the same old tired argument that they have been pushing for years about vaccines,but also,more quitely about newborn screening,with the very same old tired arguments.

http://www.naturalnews.com/025116.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/newborns-dna-routinely-harvested-for-govern…

Ironically the diseases being screened for include some very real causes of autism,and complex medical problems,like organic acidemias,urea cycle disorders,and fatty acid oxidation disorders. There have been some real fights over the future of newborn screening in places like Texas of late,that have been completely under the radar.Led by people the very same people who also oppose vaccines in the name of personal choice and freedom.This is just another facet of the very real threat these people pose,and you would do well to cover this too.

By Roger Kulp (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

ugh troll:

You have a different motive than most people who are researching parroting long-debunked misrepsentations creating needless FUD about the safety of vaccinations for their children.

FTFY. No need to thank me.

Todd W.:

Don't respond to augie. It's just trolling to get a rise out of you. It isn't worth a reply.

I do not intend to, and I barely glanced at what he wrote. For some reason I seem to be one of his favored targets. I developed a thick skin in the mid-1970s by daring to actually like math and majoring in engineering. He is an amateur compared to the idiots I had to deal with back in the days of disco!

@augustine:
I am not sure how your no vote/no kids scenario applies. If we are coming up with other similar laws (in comparison to the proposed legislation concerning vaccine exemptions,) then you should have written:

...pass a law that says you have to explain why you are not voting (to demonstrate that you are slightly informed)-but you can still choose not to vote.

and

...pass a law that says you have to demonstrate that you are informed as to the dangers of not having children-but then you can still chose not to have children.

Because Augustine, in your scenarios, people's choices are being taken from them due to a standardized test result. In the proposed legislation all choices are still a go-but if opting to not vaccinate your child you need to demonstrate that you, at the very least, were informed of the risk you are taking.

In my opinion the proposed legislation is quite gentle. I feel that without a scientifically valid reason for exemption that by allowing parents to choose for 'personal reasons' takes away my choice to have my child protected as well as takes away their child's right (and my child's right) to be protected. I understand the politics and philosophy of people being allowed to make that choice-providing that it does not cause harm to others. Sadly, though, it certainly can cause great harm...

Is it wrong to say that I always get a laugh at child augie's insipid posts?

I know I shouldn't laugh at utter stupidity like this, but in this case, I cannot help myself.

Sorry Todd:

@Auger again:
What has my (lack of) religion have to do with faulty risk assessment?
Being able to fire up a few neurons and assess the various risks associated with vaccination is not a religious problem in any way unless your religion requires you to be stupidly dense. Which it might.

Orac wrote:

Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

I'm assuming that this was polemic, rather than a genuine policy proposal. The problem would be 'parents of unvaccinated children' might not only include woo-seduced middle-class folk who arguably ought to know better, but people who are locked out of the health-care system and don't have access to doctors. I assume if schools require children to be vaccinated before enrolling that the shots are subsidized for parents who can't afford them. Given the wingnut attitudes toward both education and public health, I wouldn't be surprized if any such subsidies were cut to make way for more tax cuts for gazillionaires.
The story Chris linked is absolutely heartbreaking. But, good grief Pablo, why are you piling on poor Maria Pop?

How could anyone be so callous with their 14 mo old child? Boy, I don't get that at all.

Your own blockquote notes that little Naomi caught the measles shortly before SHE WAS SCHEDULED TO HAVE THE VACCINATION! The quote from her grieving mother indicates that she did not know measles could be fatal, which puts her in with the vast majority of the public. And she almost certainly gave this quote to the reporter as a warning by example to other parents about the danger.
Brits are known to use irony in serious discourse. I'm also guessing the text misquotes Maria by virtue of a punctuation error, and would have been better represented as: âI thought to myself, âMeasles, so what? I mean, how bad could that be?'...â What I see here is not cavalier dismissal, but an admission of crushing guilt "I thought WRONG!"
Wakefield is the villain, the Pop family the victims. How can anyone be so callous as to not see that? The degree of self-righteous anger regularly on display in the Respectful Insolence comment threads, the eagerness to assume the worst of anyone who even appears to utter anything besides an echo of your own position, is a perverse mirror of the irrational intolerance on display at AgeOfAutism or The Bolen Report. A reduced reflection to be sure. I posit no moral equivalency. But going any degree down that path at all is just wrong, and feeds the climate that harms or kills children instead of making things better.

I'm assuming that this was polemic, rather than a genuine policy proposal.

It's more superfluous than anything. Negligent transmission of infectious disease is a long-established tort.

Unfortunately, we are dealing with parents who plug into the latest "natural" disease theories, the now totally debunked vaccine-autism link and websites of woo practitioners. Other doctors who have received their science-based education and have credentialing in their specialty (Jay Gordon FAAP MD) have taken a stance against vaccine for such specious arguments as "their experience and mommy intuition" and the opportunity to be the rock stars of the anti-vaccine movement.

Unfortunately, even strong state laws that prohibit school entry to children who claim bogus religious and "philosophical" reasons, have been struck down. Minnesota
has experienced a resurgence in measles cases recently. Hennepin County (Minneapolis) now has 11 confirmed cases of measles, age demographics are 4 months of age to 35 years old; four cases are too young to have received measles vaccine, 5 confirmed cases are old enough to have been vaccinated...but didn't and 2 confirmed cases have unknown immunization status. Six of the confirmed cases have been hospitalized and there are no details about any long term health consequences from their measles infections. I wonder how many cases and deaths from vaccine preventable diseases will constitute a public health emergency and State legislatures will enact emergency legislation? Some of legislatures in the Red states have been too busy passing laws protecting their citizens against Islamic sharia law.

@ Chris: Thanks for the link to "two boys"; I hope Cate Winnicki read the article.

Orac wrote:

Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

I'm unaware of anything that would prevent such suits. If there is in fact no prohibition, there's no need for authorizing legislation.

For documented histories and videos of people who have long term health consequences or died from vaccine preventable diseases go to:

Immunization Action Coaltion Unprotected People Report

Cate, I would hope that you also link to and view the "PKIDs", "Shot by Shot" and "It Changes Your Life" videos available on the Immunization Action Coalition site.

the antivax movement is a REAL THREAT, eh, you little MORON...

Damn, we been Mabus-ed. This is sure gonna mess up the numbering once that junk is removed.

Sin taxes have the philosophical argument that they discourage certain behaviors for the good of society. Why not make anti-vaccination taxes? Don't allow parents to use their children as deductions for state taxes and/or add a new tax credit for those responsible parents that do vaccinate.

Sin taxes have the philosophical argument that they discourage certain behaviors for the good of society.

Because, Mr. Stalin, sin taxes are an example of the government asserting itself more and more into the lives of private citizens. So if you want the government take the responsibility for your personal decisions then you need to wear the proper name tag when fighting for this change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

It does appear we have more than a few communist and nazi sentiments on this board. There are plenty willing to turn their lives over to the state. And the lives of their neighbors.

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

One wonders whether outlawing murder is also grounds for Stalin references.

All but lunatics claiming (falsely) to be libertarians agree that preventing harm to others is a legitimate reason to limit individual liberty. Actual libertarians certainly do.

Remember, we're dealing with a dyed-in-the-wool follower of the great Ayn Rand - I'm sure he/she/it is off mentally (or phyiscally) mastubating to Atlas Shrugged when not in here bugging the crap out of us with a bunch of libertarian/Objectivist nonsense.

What does god do when people lie to get religious exemptions?

By Taradiddles (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

What does god do when people lie to get religious exemptions?

He tells Moshe Orac to first build a golden research center.

Then he tells Moshe Orac and his brother Messiah ben Offit that if the people still do not obey the golden research center and it's demands then they must kill every first born male of the rebels by governmental forced vaccination.

If they fail to do this and the people still do not obey then the god will unleash a plague like no one has ever seen... He will put their sister, Miriam Nancy Snyderman, in charge of everything.

Endless loops of MSNBC medical commentary. She will then rule the unbelievers for 40 years after the last lie with an iron fist and a sharp tongue.

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

She will then rule the unbelievers for 40 years after the last lie with an iron fist and a sharp tongue.

Man, it's like clockwork. Corporal mortification, self-abuse, with the fist and an imaginary female antagonist, Augustine? This is what pops into your head?

Oh, lord. Bainbridge Island. West Coast Liberal Woo heaven. Don't get me wrong - my aesthetic is right in line. I'd die to live somewhere like that, but.... geez. How can such educated people be so god damn stupid.

By shasta80.myope… (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

@46:

Wow, we've never seen the ugh troll copy/paste or link to the definition of totalitarianism (or many other words besides) while simultaneously failing to properly apply them to the circumstances at hand before.

Talk about boring.

Novalox: It is like watching Jerry Springer or Maury Povich whilst eating a tub of ice cream. Completely self-indulgent slumming, but certainly fun from time to time.

The only difference is that I have more respect for the majority of people on Springer or Povich than I do for Auggie.

The only difference is that I have more respect for the majority of people on Springer or Povich than I do for Auggie.

"Therefore nothing Augie says can be trusted as fact."

Nothing but Ad Hominems from the science based medicine regulars. Tsk!Tsk!Tsk!

Is this what science blogs has boiled down to? Yes this is all you have. You're so used to insulting, poisoning the well, and making ad hominem attacks that you've lost your compass in what you are supposed to stand for. SCIENCE!

You stand for intolerance, bigotry, and scientism!

It's becoming increasingly clear to anyone who reads without the inherent atheist/skeptic/scientism bias.

By augustine (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

You stand for intolerance, bigotry, and scientism!

A charming personality only goes so far, meatotomy.

I had deigned to amuse myself and mock the ugh troll some more, but it got lost in cyberspace thanks to the ongoing issues with the DDoS attack.

Alas, what a waste of some good mocking.

anti vax sounds like stealth germ warfare to me.

anti vax sounds like stealth germ warfare to me.

The misanthropic Augie is back...touching on every one of his prejudices, with the possible exception of sexism and gay and lesbian people.

I think Augie needs to post on a blog where his comments would be more appreciated, say Sid Offal's blogs Vaccinemachine and The Fluoride Machine. Yeah, Offal keeps churning out those articles, with nary a poster in sight.

It's becoming increasingly clear to anyone who reads without the inherent atheist/skeptic/scientism bias.

The goofus troll has this amusing delusion that anyone besides himself actually gives a shit what his opinion is.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Chris:

For some reason I seem to be one of his favored targets.

It's obvious. You're educated - and a woman!

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Yawn.

All blog posts the same.

Repeat, repeat, and repeat.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

I'll expand on my previous post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_manipulation#Delivery

Repeat your message constantly: â[Propagandist technique] must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.â[37][38] (Le Bon believed that messages that are affirmed and repeated are often perceived as truth and spread by means of contagion. âMan, like animals, has a natural tendency to imitation. Imitation is a necessity for him, provided always that the imitation is quite easyâ, wrote Le Bon.[39] In his 1881 essay âLâHomme et Societesâ, he wrote âIt is by examples not by arguments that crowds are guided.â He stressed that in order to influence, one must not be too far removed his audience nor his example unattainable by them. If it is, his influence will be nil.[40]

Am I against vaccines? Nope. Nice try though. I just don't let people manipulate me and my BBB is thick enough to not let crowd manipulation techniques influence my thoughts.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

I wonder if Augie is aware that Ayn Rand was one of those evil atheists?

@63 - Even worse, Chris's education is in a traditionally male field which apparently makes her some sort of transsexual.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 25 Mar 2011 #permalink

Don't forget Chris' name. The troll has never forgiven her for having a name that (in it's mind) indicates that she is male and therefore worthy of human interaction, when in fact she is a mere despised female on which the troll should not have to waste its time.

"Yawn" -- The Analyst, if you find this blog boring, you can always read a different one. I've heard there are lots more on the Internet.

@ Analyst: You might not believe this, but some posters on this site were exposed to and had childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, rubella...before vaccines were available to prevent these diseases. We survived them with no long-term sequelae. My cousin wasn't that fortunate and was left with post measles encephalopathy. Back in the day when there was no polio vaccine, my dearest childhood friend died from the disease.

During my career as a public health nurse, I saw many, many cases of invasive (septicemia and meningitis), deadly bacterial diseases and I witnessed the dramatic decrease in prevalence of the diseases with the use of timely newly licensed vaccines.

Are we somewhat strident in our views, sometimes... because we also see what ignorant people advance as their views of "natural" disease progression. Some posters on this site pretend to know bacteriology, virology, immunology and epidemiology and statistics. Still others, spew their venom about their narrow religious beliefs...as if an educated mind is somehow "anti-religion".

I would refer you to my posting # 42 above and hope that you view the site: "Immunization Action Coalition Unprotected People Report", to read actual reports and see pictures of youngsters who were afflicted with vaccine-preventable diseases.

During my career as a public health nurse, I saw many, many cases of invasive (septicemia and meningitis), deadly bacterial diseases and I witnessed the dramatic decrease in prevalence of the diseases with the use of timely newly licensed vaccines.

How many cases of SIDS did you see? How many cases of vaccine induced seizures did you see. How many cases of vaccine induced encephalitis did you see? How many cases of vaccine induced disease? None! Because they don't come to you.

What you've just described about your experience is called confirmation bias.

BTW the website you referred to is a biased propaganda website. It is not an educational website, although it poses as one. It's sole purpose is to get compliance to the vaccination schedule. It is a sheep herder website.

By augustine (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

The Analyst: "In his 1881 essay âLâHomme et Societesâ, he wrote âIt is by examples not by arguments that crowds are guided.â

Yes, this sounds a lot like the argument-by-anecdote technique that antivaxers use. It breaks down when people are intelligent enough to see the fallacy of using selective (and misinterpreted/false) examples alone to guide them.

"Am I against vaccines? Nope. Nice try though. I just don't let people manipulate me and my BBB is thick enough to not let crowd manipulation techniques influence my thoughts."

Here I am confused as to what "crowd manipulation techniques" pro-immunization advocates are supposedly using. Is getting an accurate message out through sound science and good data (sometimes supplemented by accurate and powerful anecdote) "manipulative propaganda" merely if one is tired of hearing the message?

By this logic "I'm bored with the climate change message, so I won't believe it" makes sense. Or "They go on and on about how smoking is bad for you, so that must be propaganda I can ignore".

Is that really how you analyze things, Analyst?

By Dangerous Bacon (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

How many cases of SIDS did you see? How many cases of vaccine induced seizures did you see. How many cases of vaccine induced encephalitis did you see? How many cases of vaccine induced disease? None! Because they don't come to you.

Auggie, how do you know she saw none *and* that the ones that existed didn't come to her?

And is there any evidence that SIDS is connected to vaccination? (Besides the studies I already know where SIDS incidence is decreased by vaccination.)

Note also that when "anti vaccine" came here and said they were an atheist, auggie didn't tell them they were one of those horrific atheist moralists.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

By this logic "I'm bored with the climate change message, so I won't believe it" makes sense. Or "They go on and on about how smoking is bad for you, so that must be propaganda I can ignore".

There are scientists that are skeptical about the climate change model. Are they wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Both sets of scientists may have valid points.

And I agree. From what I know, smoking is bad for you. That isn't to say that someday they will find a health benefits of a certain species of tobacco, isolate something, and make a drug out of it. However, I don't think such a thing would happen because of the negative stigma that surrounds tobacco. It could be suicide for a pharmaceutical company to release a drug that is derived from tobacco. I have never smoked a cigarette in my life, so in no way am I pro-smoking. But if you want to smoke, I am not going to scream at you. I believe people can make decisions for themselves, and we don't need big brother to step in and do it for us. Because of more or less successful campaigns, people know the risks of smoking.

It's like ORAC saying that people are germ theory denialists because they believe in the terrain theory. I replied that I think they both have valid points. A lot of black and white thinkers here, and ORAC is very good at manipulating his crowd into this type of thinking. There are no shades of grey.

And getting everyone to use words like "antivaxxer" and "woo", strange "journalistic" style that other posters mimic, writing posts about Jay Gordon over and over and over... classic crowd manipulation techniques. The same kind of crap you get if you watch Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or listen to Rush Limbaugh.

People here aren't practicing skepticism. Herd mentality is what is truly taking place. Ignore my post. It's a bunch of illogical, nonsensical, quakery-woo nonsense. Run with the sheep.

50% of what you learn in medical school will be disproven. Be skeptical of what you are taught. And of course, 90% of statistics are made up.

When I talked about bacterial cell wall deficient forms and L-Forms in the past, I was just spewing a bunch of pseudoscience bullshit. Wait, they are real? No waiiii! They were EASY to observe, and the science was only there for over 100 years. I'm not quite sure what blinds people, but perhaps it comes down to herd mentality. Oh, and the blind trust of our government bureaucracies may have a little bit to do with it as well.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Analyst: Have you viewed Augie's postings on this topic?:

Augie #13: Totally off-point, tying the Civil Rights Voting legislation and eugenics to a willful tort.

Augie #26: Sheer lunacy and evil, "Your son is the last person I would vaccinate my child for" rant. Note also the appearance of Augie's imaginary child.

Augie #31: Religious rant about atheist morals and atheist values impacting the health care system.

Augie #46: Political rant and labeling of posters on this site as nazis or communists.

Augie #50: Antisemitic rant.

Augie #70: SIDs and seizures associated vaccines and government conspiracy rant.

Have you viewed Augie's postings on this topic?

No, I haven't.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ lilady

I also noticed that you think I am anti-vaccination. I believe I clearly said I am not.

I read your post, and it was completely irrelevant.

If you question anything here -> you must be anti-vaccination
If you question the safety of vaccines -> you definitely must be anti-vaccination

Keep an open mind, and be shot.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

"Analyst", you have displayed a clear inability to evaluate reality (as witnessed by your belief that there are scientists that are skeptical of climate change. In fact, the only skeptical scientists are not in relevant fields at all. There are engineers and non-technical propagandists who are 'skeptical' of it, but they are not experts and should not count for your claim either. The closest you will get is weathermen, and once again: they are not experts at climate modelling.) and are attacking one side and only one side of the vaccination debate.

At this point, given that your debate tactics mimic those of individuals who have been repeatedly proven to be lying, I'm going to have to assume the same for you.

By Michael Ralston (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

The Analyst:

There are scientists that are skeptical about the climate change model. Are they wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Both sets of scientists may have valid points.

Almost all of those are scientists and engineers in other fields. Listening to them is just like listening Gary Goldman of Medical Veritas, his PhD is in computer science!

The only ones who have valid points are the ones who do not stray outside their fields of knowledge.

@ Analyst: Regarding the use of "woo"...it is a an all-encompassing word, that Orac made up and I have used to post on this site. If you feel more comfortable using "horseshit", "bullshit" or any clever made up word in your postings, feel free to.

"And of course, 90 % of statistics are made up" Do you even know the math associated with statistics or the math involved in determining prevalence and incidence of disease.

The nerdy group here who have actually used their education and are licensed and credentialed, really cares about vaccine safety and we actually are deeply troubled by the deaths of 10 infants due to pertussis in California. We are also concerned with the outbreak of measles in Minneapolis. And, we grieve for the loss of life and potential long-term disabilities because ignorant people think vaccination is a government/big pharma conspiracy.

it is a an all-encompassing word, that Orac made up

No. I'm not too certain about the folk etymology that ascribes it to Randi, either. It can certainly be attested to the mid 70's.

@ Narad: Thanks for the clarification about the origins of "woo". I recall using the (plural?) "woo-woo" word years ago when I spoke to my youngster, during the "toilet-training" phase of her development.

Look, I really know nothing about climate change (other than the junk they put in the discovery channel when frankly, I just want to watch animals mate and eat eachother).

I guess to me, climate change is irrelevant, and I'm not really interested in it. It tends to be an annoying political topic as well. I do want alternatives to petroleum, I want cleaner air, and I don't want my neighbors spraying Demon (very nasty toxic shit) all over their yard. Pollution ticks me off, and it ticks me off more that people in this state don't give a crap. The chemical crap and pollution that may not bother your health does bother mine. I could elaborate, but I will leave it there.

But it's not about climate change to me. I just want fresh air as the current air bothers myself and many others. It was the reason I used to live in the mountains. In my opinion, it won't be until people have their health compromised on a massive scale before things change.

If you want to discuss climate change, you are talking to the wrong person. However, I can engage in discussion about toxicity, air quality, and pollution.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

I guess to me, climate change is irrelevant, and I'm not really interested in it.

Thanks for injecting it into the discussion, then, as well as the wholly unsolicited internal speech "Am I against vaccines? Nope. Nice try though."

@ Analyst: I don't really discuss climate change on blogs as I am really not an expert on the science behind it. I do try to educate myself by reading books and articles on the subjects of air and water pollutants from the industrialization of the world and the overuse of chemicals.

I have some expertise on disease epidemiology, immunology and vaccines however, because of science-based education and a long career in public health. My expertise is not based on religion, politics or "woo" in its various permutations.

Long before Orac developed the "Religious Insolence" blog, I dealt with young parents' concerns about vaccines including the bogus scientific link of Hepatitis B vaccine with higher incidence of multiple sclerosis and the early ramifications of the Lancet published Wakefield MMR vaccine-autism study.

Thirty or more years ago, when I first became an advocate for the developmentally disabled, I knew many, many parents of children with autism, who bought into the "woo" treatments be offered to "cure" their youngsters. Back then it was mega-vitamins, expensive magical supplements and chelation therapies.

@ Augie: The incidence and prevalence of SIDs deaths has gone down dramatically due to education of parents through the "Back to Sleep" campaign, verified by statistics.

Thanks for injecting it into the discussion, then, as well as the wholly unsolicited internal speech

I wasn't the one that injected it into the discussion.

By The Analyst (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

I stand corrected.

LILADY

I have some expertise on disease epidemiology, immunology and vaccines however, because of science-based education and a long career in public health. My expertise is not based on religion, politics or "woo" in its various permutations.

Oh you're an expert? Why aren't you a doctor? You're a nurse who is an expert immunology, epidemiology, and vaccines? And you're strictly science based via education?

Um, what school did YOU go to?

By augustine (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

Oh you're an expert? Why aren't you a doctor? You're a nurse who is an expert immunology, epidemiology, and vaccines?

Add an origami nurse's cap to the things spirit-gummed to somebody's opisthenar in preparation for high drama.

It's almost like he can't help himself with the straw men.

Notice how a claim to some expertise magically becomes a claim to be an expert.

And the ugh troll wonders why the baseline assumption around here is that he is being dishonest.

Notice how a claim to some expertise magically becomes a claim to be an expert.

So you're not an expert?

By augustine (not verified) on 26 Mar 2011 #permalink

So you're not an expert?

Augustine, it's far too late to try to back into the posture of professional sad sack through piteous incompetence at schoolyard taunts.

augustine

Um, what school did YOU go to?

You first.

@Little Augie: I can't answer for lilady, but how about University of Michigan College of Nursing (BSN) and SUNY Stony Brook (MSN)? Doesn't make me an expert. Reading peer-reviewed articles, research and learning gives me a bit of expertise but I would bet lilady could run rings around me due to her long experience as a public health nurse and her interests.

Now, how about YOUR schooling?

The proposal would require parents who seek exemption from current state law to submit proof that a health provider has informed them of the risks and benefits of immunization.

Information about the "risks" should include a detailed description of the disease(s) the vaccine is intended to prevent including symptoms, treatment, prognosis, and potential complications. Maybe even show the parents some videos or photos of children with the diseases or with complications from the diseases.

Parents who don't vaccinate often have no idea how awful, and even deadly, these diseases can be. And if they refuse to educate themselves, someone has to educate them

Becca Stareyes @3:

I'd insist on an exception for those who cannot be vaccinated for (evidence-supported) medical reasons. If little Susie is one of the few that does have a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, or is immuno-compromised, then her parents are minimizing the risk as well as they can.

Yes, and the situation with peanut allergies immediately popped into my mind: there are achools that ban all peanut products if there is a child with severe peanut allergies. If a school has a student who cannot be vaccinated for valid medical reasons, they ought to insist that everyone else attending the school ought to be vaccinated, to reduce the risk. It's for the children, after all.

Brad

Oh, lord. Bainbridge Island. West Coast Liberal Woo heaven. Don't get me wrong - my aesthetic is right in line. I'd die to live somewhere like that, but.... geez. How can such educated people be so god damn stupid.

They're not stupid. You are. Bainbridge Island is represented in the Washington State Senate by Phil Rockefeller, co-sponsor of the bill Orac lauds above. Bainbridge Island is represented in the Washington State House by Christine Rolfes, who voted for the bill.
Between the House and Senate there were 40 votes against this bill: 2 democrats and 38 republicans - no doubt many of them 'Objectivist' Tea Partiers like Augie.
Try using the Google to check facts before spewing your knee-jerk stereotypes.

Yes I know my enemies
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are American dreams
(- - - - - - Zach de la Rocha)

Here's how a person without a chip on their shoulder could have written the post @ 96:

Oh, lord. Bainbridge Island. West Coast Liberal Woo heaven. Don't get me wrong - my aesthetic is right in line. I'd die to live somewhere like that, but.... geez. How can such educated people be so god damn stupid.

Actually, I think you want to look more closely. Bainbridge Island is represented in the Washington State Senate by Phil Rockefeller, co-sponsor of the bill Orac lauds above. Bainbridge Island is represented in the Washington State House by Christine Rolfes, who voted for the bill. Even though two of the three anti-vaccine protestors quoted in the article were Bainbridge residents, obviously anti-vaccine sentiment isn't universal there.

... of course, a completely legitimate rejoinder to that post would be to point out that nothing stops the same place from both having political representatives who are science-based on vaccine issues, and being "West Coast Liberal Woo heaven" because a significant portion of its residents are not so science-based. The post at 96 contains interesting information but it's also something of a straw man.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 27 Mar 2011 #permalink

Also, Belkin moved to Bainbridge Island post 1998 from Long Island, New York. It is not that the people on the island are full of woo (it does have a Naval submarine base), but that some people are really full of it... many are from elsewhere.

Some obnoxious piece of crap said to lilady: "Oh you're an expert? Why aren't you a doctor? You're a nurse who is an expert immunology, epidemiology, and vaccines? And you're strictly science based via education?

Um, what school did YOU go to?"

1- she's a nurse - which is a science-based education;
2- she has probably trained further as a public health nurse (or, as we said in the UK, an health visitor);
3- PHN/HVs study issues like immunology, epidemiology and vaccines to a much higher level than do basic grade nurses;
4- training for registered nurses is science-based, yes;
5- she went to a school to train ... unlike the obnoxious piece of crap, whose parents couldn't bear to send him to school in case he learned enough to chat back to them and prove them stupid.

Chemmomo said to an obnoxious piece of crap: "You first."

Of course, we all know that he didn't go to one. He is uneducated. Maybe I'd be more inclined to blame his parents for this, but he insists on being a mouthy little twat who cannot stand to understand things less that the rest of us do; so, instead of haranguing his parents (which they seriously do deserve for being stupid enough to think they could do the job properly), I blame him - for not choosing to not be a mouthy little twat.

MI Dawn said to a mouthy little git: "... how about University of Michigan College of Nursing (BSN) and SUNY Stony Brook (MSN)? Doesn't make me an expert. Reading peer-reviewed articles, research and learning gives me a bit of expertise but I would bet lilady could run rings around me due to her long experience as a public health nurse and her interests.

Now, how about YOUR schooling?"

1- Actually, a master's degree makes one quite an expert in the area(s) in which one has specialised. A Ph. D. will make one an expert in a very specific field above and beyond that covered in a master's degree;
2- MI Dawn does indeed have a fair bit of expertise, on the basis mentioned in 1, above;
3- I'd say that lilady does indeed have a lot of expertise from her training and her work experience;
4- I refer MI Dawn to the response I gave to Chemmomo regarding augie's 'schooling'.

Me done for now ... tea and biscuits time.

By David N. Andre… (not verified) on 27 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ David N. Andrews, M. Ed., C.P.S.E.

My darling young man:
I've discovered that when you hit 35 or so, you learn to *have* tea, *forego* the biscuits, and proceed directly to Tanqueray. And I expect that, based on the amount of frustration we all experience with various trolls here @ RI, there'll be less imbibing of the former beverage and more of the latter. DW

@ Augie: Magna Cum Laude BSN at a university; accepted for admission at two other universities; partial academic scholarship.

CNE courses in epidemiology, immunology, vaccine-preventable diseases, disaster preparedness, Certified HIV counsellor, tuberculous case manager and tuberculosis intake nurse in public health clinics, perinatal hepatitis B prevention program manager, participant in area hospitals' Infectious Diseases Departments' "grand rounds" seminars. Attendance at State Health Department seminars and CDC seminars dealing with various emerging diseases such as West Nile Virus, disaster preparedness, WMDs such as anthrax, nerve gases, nuclear devices and smallpox, recommended childhood vaccines and recommended booster vaccines for college-entry students and adults. Participated in large influenza vaccine clinics, set up and supervised two-step T.B. Mantoux mass screening clinics...post exposure-to an active pulmonary T.B. case. Set up and supervised outreach programs and community-based clinics to provide MMR immunizations in "targeted" communities with un-immunized immigrant groups. Interfaced with health department sanitarians for inspections and testing of suspect food implicated in a food-borne illness outbreak. Case finding for rabies exposure and dispensing of human rabies vaccine and human rabies immune globulin. Telephone consults with area physicians, infection control nurses in area hospitals and infectious diseases specialists, school nurses, State laboratories and the CDC for case finding and reporting of all "Reportable Diseases".

At the risk of being redundant...what school did YOU go to?
I might also add... are you currently employed in ANY field...or on you "on the dole".

Regarding post # 101 above, I messed up; it is my posting "lilady"

Am I the only one missing any relevant degrees in augie's list?

lilady:

Unfortunately, your impressive education and experience will count for nothing in augie's little twisted mind. He has shown himself to be a misogynist. To him, nursing is a "girls' job", and girls are icky and have cooties.

Of course, he is clueless about the following facts:

Public Health nurses and Infection Control Nurses have a much greater working knowledge of epidemiology and vaccination than the average physician.

Many of the leaders in the science of epidemiology are academic nurses.

One of the founders of the science of epidemiology was also the founder of modern nursing . That would be Florence Nightingale

Augie is a troll without a bridge. The bridge fired him.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@lilady: I grovel at your feet! (grin).

@Mu: you posted too fast: the post from @augie was from lilady. I assume the Magna Cum Laude from a university is hers (and good show, lilady. Again I grovel except that I get to brag my daughter outdid her mom and also graduated Magna. I only made Cum Laude).

@T. Bruce: LOL! I have a vision of the bridge handing the troll a pink slip and firmly pointing down the road.

I again apologize for the confusing posting #101 above...everyone on this site knows that my "expertise" on the computer is sadly deficient.

@ MI Dawn: A close family friend went to Stonybrook for her MSN; it is an excellent school.

Apparently Augie gets his information from the "Meet the Parents" movie and its tiresome joke about "male nurses". The Luddite sexist still thinks that practice of medicine is still male-dominated, when 50 % of admissions to medical schools are female.

I am still waiting for Augie's reply to my questions "What school did YOU go to" and where he is gainfully employed.

Brad: I really don't give a rats ass what you think about my kids' medical risks, and whether they are supported by evidence. My grandmother developed GB after a flu shot and I have every right to be selective about what shots my kids get. Since they have not safety tested every ingredient, I have every right to be cautious. Orac's whole blog on this is stupid. Too many chronically ill kids and they supposedly haven't a clue why?!The experts are either stupid or don't want to study the issue properly. I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I think Augie's post at 26 summed it up for me.

If augustine is able to make up a post that sums up your thoughts on an issue, you really need to rethink your life.

@Jen: weird, I'm a lot older than you and can remember a LOT of chronically ill kids in my schools. Asthma, exzema, ADD (rarely diagnosed, just kids who don't pay attention in class), probably autism, definitely ASD children. Maybe with the internet the chronically ill kids are just more visible. Maybe the internet is CAUSING the chronically ill children. Maybe it's cell phones. Maybe it's just the fact that now everyone gets a diagnosis where as back in the 1950s and 1960s few people bothered. Ever read "Karen" by Marie Killalea? Learn about how CP was handled until she became an activist.

As for stupid experts or don't want to study issues...pot, kettle, black.

Why should there be vaccine exemptions at all? Unless there's some medical reason to not vaccinate a child?
If the price of not being vaccinated were to pay for private school, parents would change their minds about vaccinating pretty quickly.

The internet isn't the only reason the chronically ill kids are more visible. There's also the ADA and social changes connected to that. I see a lot more people, including children, in wheelchairs than I did when I was growing up. It's not that nobody in the 1970s needed a wheelchair: it's that their families were encouraged to hide those children. If the parents wanted to take their kids out, as they would any other child, it was a lot harder: businesses not only didn't have ramps, many people thought it was an imposition to "make" "normal" people look at a child in a wheelchair.

Also, some fraction of people who have chronic diseases or disabilities are in fact evidence of medical successes: they're alive. For example, the Iraq war is producing a lot more brain-damaged veterans than World War II or the Vietnam War. Forty or fifty years ago, those veterans wouldn't have been magically whole: they would have been dead. If you know anyone with Type I diabetes, modern medicine is keeping them alive.

The law being what it is, Jen almost certainly does have the right to make bad medical decisions for her children. But having the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea. (I have the "right" to go to a liquor store, buy two liters of vodka, and drink it all before midnight. I prefer to live.)

My grandmother developed GB after a flu shot

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, anyone?

and I have every right to be selective about what shots my kids get.

Doesn't mean that there isn't a right and wrong answer, or that you're making the right one.

Since they have not safety tested every ingredient

False.

Too many chronically ill kids and they supposedly haven't a clue why?!

Define "too many" and give evidence for any connection to vaccines.

@ Laura: You've touched on an interesting point about private schools-vs-public schools funding and the avoidance of vaccine.

In my (very Blue) state, local school district homeowner's taxes offset the overall cost of tuition, by purchasing all the textbooks (not "christian-based" history or "christian-based" science texts), for use in parochial schools. The costs of school bus transportation is also paid for, as is the cost for full-time school nurses and personnel costs for "special services" such as speech/language/reading comprehension therapies. And, the religion-affiliated elementary and high schools strictly adhere to the State's Education Law regarding immunizations prior to entry into school. This offset of costs by public tax dollars for parochial and private non-denominational schooling follows Federal regulations.

I wonder if other states do sneak those "christian" texts in and if public tax dollars are paying for these books?

MU

Am I the only one missing any relevant degrees in augie's list?

You forgot one thing. That is Lilady's list.

Mu what just showed everyone is how inherent bias changes the perception of how you read a post and poster. Objectivity does not exist on science blogs. Everyone is in it to win it. No one is the casual observer just looking at the facts. The way you think before you even examine the facts will change the way you look at the facts.

Case in point. Mu's had a presupposition before he read the pose. He thought it was an antagonist. Had he read the EXACT same post with a different supposition he would not have responded critically or with doubt.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@lilady So private schools are required to have the same policies as public schools, about vaccinations? So that if vaccinating is required to go to school, parents who don't vaccinate have to homeschool?
Perhaps if a parent doesn't want to vaccinate their kids, they have a right not to - but their kids should then go to school with children of other parents who feel the same way. That would also encourage vaccinations, because they wouldn't be freeloading off the vaccinated children's immunity. So making it mandatory for private schools to have the same requirements as public schools has some bad consequences.
I don't know that there is a right not to get one's children vaccinated. It doesn't seem to involve precious freedoms, unlike some other kinds of rights over one's own body.

OlretiredNurseLady

Your bachelors degree in nursing reads like a resume intended to impress with a quick partial glance.You've listed your clasess and seminars with fancy and important sounding phrases. Lets look at it more closely.

Certified HIV counsellor,

"Mr. Smith you have HIV. The doctor is busy doing more important stuff so he sent me in here."

tuberculous case manager and tuberculosis intake nurse in public health clinics,

Intake nurse? Seriously? You must have stared at that case all day long.

perinatal hepatitis B prevention program manager,

"Nobody leaves my hospital without a Hep B shot. I mean NOBODY. Tough job there."
Must be a real technical job with lot's of responsibility.

participant in area hospitals' Infectious Diseases Departments' "grand rounds" seminars.

A participant? How nice. It must have been very "educational". No need to say anything further. This alone should have made you an expert.

Attendance at State Health Department seminars and CDC seminars dealing with various emerging diseases such as West Nile Virus, disaster preparedness, WMDs such as anthrax, nerve gases, nuclear devices and smallpox, recommended childhood vaccines and recommended booster vaccines for college-entry students and adults.

I can see where the propaganda took hold early on. This is all vaccine related propaganda classes. What's the end result of all of this? Get a vaccine and how do we "round them all up" when we have to?

Participated in large influenza vaccine clinics,

They do this at Rite Aid and the supermarket, also.

set up and supervised two-step T.B. Mantoux mass screening clinics...post exposure-to an active pulmonary T.B. case. Set up and supervised outreach programs and community-based clinics to provide MMR immunizations in "targeted" communities with un-immunized immigrant groups.

I'm telling you. You were large and in charge. More rounding them up and getting them vaccinated. You are deep in this propaganda machine. No wonder you feel you're fighting the good fight. Of what you've been asked to do you HAVE to rationalize it somehow. I wonder did you follow these immigrants closely for vaccine reactions? What about long term affects. OUt of sight out of mind I guess. How many of them contracted infectious disease for which they were vaccinated?

Interfaced with health department sanitarians for inspections and testing of suspect food implicated in a food-borne illness outbreak.

Interfaced? You reported A case to the proper authorities. Don't get so technical.

Case finding for rabies exposure and dispensing of human rabies vaccine and human rabies immune globulin.

A raccoon was on the loose in your county?

Telephone consults with area physicians, infection control nurses in area hospitals and infectious diseases specialists, school nurses, State laboratories and the CDC for case finding and reporting of all "Reportable Diseases".

Are all county public nurses experts in all of the above? Wouldn't all of the above just be par for the job? You say "consults" like they were asking for your expertise because they don't know what to do. Is this a fancy and important way of saying that an infectious or suspected infectious person presented to your clinic and you reported it to the PROPER authorities?

Now I see what MU was talking about.

You must have been something back in the day (60's? 70's?). Irreplaceable. If you were a new buck today you'd have all sorts of fancy important letters behind your name like David N. Andrews, PhD M. Ed., M.Ad., C.S.I., LMNOP.

Oh I can now clearly see why you're an expert in epidemiology, immunology, and vaccines.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

I don't know that there is a right not to get one's children vaccinated. It doesn't seem to involve precious freedoms, unlike some other kinds of rights over one's own body.

It's your right to not have the government violate your body with a needle at gunpoint especially when you don't have a disease and the government is trying to prophesy that you are.. (if it were the law and you refused and you refused arrest then force would be used)

It's easy to get out of school vaccinations. Get a form signed give it to the school as a waiver. If a nurse like lilady gives you any problem by attempted intimidation or harrasment tell her to "stuff it" and watch the fumes come out of her ears.

Then inform her she must go and get govenment mandated blood pressure medication, anxiety pills, and anger counseling. She just may harm someone for her ideology.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

1- she's a nurse - which is a science-based education;
4- training for registered nurses is science-based, yes;

Must by why nurses forgo the influenza vaccine. Many that I know, and I'm sure you too, also forgo the hep B vaccine for infants. It's that science based education.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Jen "My grandmother developed GB after a flu shot" - I'm sure it has been mentioned here many times before, but getting the flu is considerably more likely to cause GB than the vaccine.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Jen "My grandmother developed GB after a flu shot" - I'm sure it has been mentioned here many times before, but getting the flu is considerably more likely to cause GB than the vaccine.

Well then the flu shot didn't work did it? I guess when you try and spin things then the flu shot not working isn't as damaging as it causes someone to develop a neurological disorder. The lesser of two evils spin.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Augie: We are still waiting your answer "Where did YOU go to school?" and the answer to my question about "gainful employment." (Attendance at "Sunday School", adult bible study classes and Boy Scout merit badges don't count...nor does the public dole money you receive count toward "gainful employment")

I find engaging trolls on this blog distasteful, but in your case, I'll make an exception..because of your very odious miscreant rantings.

Ummm...jack (augie) you forgot to post your own credentials?

*whispers* jack dear, your stupid is blaring and it's flashing large red lights...more so than usual

By Sauceress (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

Augie, the list I referred to is still devoid of any degrees, but yes, I didn't realize that @augie and augustine aren't the same poster.
But not to kick a deceased equine, where did you go to school?

@ Laura: The Federal statutes (Title I), that I referred to in a prior posting regarding public-tax funding for private school and parochial school funding have been debated in the political arena for years. The U.S. Supreme Court has issued some decisions on this subject, as well.

The "hot issues" presently being debated in Congress are the use of "parental education vouchers" (IRS tax credits), for tuition costs at "charter schools" and the inclusion of parochial school tuition for the IRS tax credits.

As I have stated in previous postings, I am a strong advocate of following the WHO, CDC, AAP Recommendations for childhood immunizations for protection against deadly vaccine-preventable diseases and to protect vulnerable medically-labile people who cannot be immunized.

He seems to get dumber by the second, doesn't he? And you're right, he (must be a he....right? And...creepy, very creepy, and...is anyone getting self-hating gay*?; but no, one mustn't speculate) is more and more abusive and irrational. So Lilady goes ahead and shares her education and experience with him and the reason that she knows what she's talking about, and he goes into a hissy fit just because it shows him up for the uneducated, deluded moron he is.

He seems never to have been responsible for anything, save his own slime troll on this blog.

C'mon then, stupid troll - what is your educational/experiential background that allows you to make the claims you do?

*This is not, of course, an insult.

It's your right to not have the government violate your body with a needle at gunpoint especially when you don't have a disease

I don't think I agree. People don't have a right to spread dangerous diseases. There are other rights over one's body that are crucial. But that isn't one of them.
What would you think about your unvaccinated children having to go to a school where the other children also weren't vaccinated, then? Whooping cough, polio? You get your choice to not vaccinate your children BUT your kids have to be with other children who may pass on nasty unnecessary diseases.

My compliments to lilady on her impressive experience.

For augustine's benefit, and Mu's, degrees are good to get your first job. Once you have it, employers are, for very good reasons, more interested in your experience and your continuing education such as seminars. This is especially true in medicine where an M.D. with 32 years experience who has not kept up with the field, may be less capable than a nurse who has. So it's kind of silly to look at a history of training and experience and say, "I don't see any degrees."

@Augustine #120 "Well then the flu shot didn't work did it?" Huh? You're suggesting the flu shot didn't work because it didn't cause GB? Or are you assuming that the people who got flu had been vaccinated?

The study I linked to concluded, "our study provides robust evidence that seasonal influenza vaccination does not cause Guillain-Barré syndrome. It also shows that patients presenting with influenzalike illness in general practice have a greatly increased risk of developing Guillain-Barré syndrome in the subsequent month."

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

our study provides robust evidence that seasonal influenza vaccination does not cause Guillain-Barré syndrome

That would imply that Jen makes crap up, which is unpossible.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Vicki: To add to your excellent posting about handicapped kids receiving education and support services to enable them to reach their potential....The Education for All Handicapped Children Act (Public Law 94-142) was enacted by Congress and the Senate in 1975. Prior to that landmark legislation, youngsters with debilitating physical and intellectual impairments, were deemed "exempt" from school attendance.

Yes, yes, yes...you are so right with your philosophy of inclusion in our society; a great society cares for all people who are in need.

lilady

a great society cares for all people who are in need.

And it doesn't kill it's helpless little ones in the name of the greater good. I saved more than I killed is your only consolation and rationale. It's a morality and philosophy that "science" based medicine is based in.

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

augustine:

And it doesn't kill it's helpless little ones in the name of the greater good. I saved more than I killed is your only consolation and rationale. It's a morality and philosophy that "science" based medicine is based in.

We're not "killing helpless little ones", we're exposing them to a tiny risk to protect them from a much bigger one. Unless you've got a better solution available, we're doing the best thing we can.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

ah the argumentum ad augustinium...again...and again....ad nauseum, and way beyond.
What have you ever done, you (caution, nsfw, adtwattiam language, fact-free, juvenile and immature) worthless heap of shit?
Nothing. Except, perhaps, some imaginary children (unvaccinated, of course).
Your justification for the views you hold, or your continued self-stroking on RI is.....?
[Creepy idiot now declares victory over everyone, especially me]

Augustine and its Nirvana fallacy. Very sad.

AnthonyK:

He seems never to have been responsible for anything, save his own slime troll on this blog.

I don't think the ugh troll even takes responsibility for his own fails on this blog. Usually tries to sidestep getting called out for dishonesty, fallacies, &c.

"Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child."

"I'd insist on an exception for those who cannot be vaccinated for (evidence-supported) medical reasons. If little Susie is one of the few that does have a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine, or is immuno-compromised, then her parents are minimizing the risk as well as they can. It might be a rare case compared to those who are misinformed about the risks, but it is based on good evidence rather than misinformation."

The idea seems to be to protect kids like little Susie - if an antivaxer sends his or her unvaccinated-for-no-good-reason kid to little Susie's school and that kid infects little Susie, then little Susie's parents can sue the the antivaxer. Given this risk of lawsuits from the parents of children who can't be safely vaccinated, fewer parents of children who can be safely vaccinated may refuse to let them be vaccinated...

"Personally, I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child."

I'd take one step back. Your magical fairy land hypothesis would work if the world actually worked the way science bloggers make you think it works.

So.. to make it fair and reasonable you could also sue a VACCINATED child's parent's for passing on a disease. You should also be able to sue the vaccine pharma company, the doctor, and all of his nurses that misled you into believing the vaccine was any what close to 100%. False advertising on a product. Vaccinated kids should be protected by pharm's product.

But this would make doctors and nurses hesitant because they aren't quite that confident in the vaccine efficacy. It would also put vaccine manufacturers out of business.

And then.. you should also be able to sue for damages incurred by the vaccine itself. Further more bankrupting philanthropic pharmaceutical compnanies, goody goody doctors and the nurses they have giving the shots.

Doesn't sound very fair when I put it that way does it, Lise? The government/medical industrial complex should just be able to do whatever it want's to do and economically drain anyone who stands in it's path, huh?

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

Augustine, do you know what the phrase "Due diligence" means? In short, it means that all the required precautions were taken. In all of the cases you described, due diligence had been observed, and there would be no cause for suit.

Also, you still haven't provided a 100% effective alternative.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

Gary, Now you sound like a reasonable Falcon. All cases described? All precautions taken? All the cases I described? Due diligence observed? No cause for suit? What case specifically would you be talking about?

Also, you still haven't provided a 100% effective alternative.

Kids are killed. Do I have to provide an 100% effective alternative? YOu don't even have a 100% campaign. It a mass vaccine campaign. Of course some are going to be killed in your campaign. So what?

By augustine (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

@139
Ah, more nonsense from the child.

And he still hasn't answered the question about his/her/its schooling.

So.. to make it fair and reasonable you could also sue a VACCINATED child's parent's for passing on a disease.

You can, dumbass.

I'm curious about something, augustine. Pretend it's 1890 and you are a doctor in the United States. Smallpox is endemic and has a mortality of around 30%. There's an effective vaccine (95% receive immunity) that you can provide, though it has a complication rate of about one per thousand and a mortality rate of one or two per million.

Would you offer the vaccine? If one of your patients is unlucky and dies of it, should you be punished? If one of your patients gets the vaccine, doesn't become immune, and later gets the disease anyway, should you be sued?

Would you have supported the smallpox eradication campaign of the 70s?

@DW: Make the flow-chart a 'proceed to any good single malt', and I'll endorse that flow-chart! ("My darling young man" ... ahhhhh, long time since anyone called me that!)

@lilady: Shit! *bites nails* I knew you were good. Didn't know you were that good! *bows down*

@BTMcN: "Augie is a troll without a bridge. The bridge fired him." This nearly had me ejecting water at both ends! The visual is bloody priceless!

@jen: Really... just STFU! You talk one language fluently, and it's called Bollocks.

@augustine: "If you were a new buck today you'd have all sorts of fancy important letters behind your name like David N. Andrews, PhD M. Ed., M.Ad., C.S.I., LMNOP."

I'm dyslexic and even I can get people's post-nomials correct. If your 'home-schooling' was worth anything at all, then you have no excuse for getting it fucking wrong. Shitting Jesus! (And I'm certain that augie has made his saviour shit a good few bowl-fuls in his time!)

@AnthonyK: "So Lilady goes ahead and shares her education and experience with him and the reason that she knows what she's talking about, and he goes into a hissy fit just because it shows him up for the uneducated, deluded fuck-wit he is."

FTFY. YW. 'Moron' was a classification of mental handicap in the early days. It was an issue of constitutional origin, and the person so described could not be blamed for his or her condition. Augie, on the other hand, has a choice. He can, as Usenet parlance went, 'get clue' and learn, and upgrade his knowledge. He chooses to not do so, ergo the correct diagnosis - per USCFDP* - is 'fuck-wit'.

@novalox: "And he still hasn't answered the question about his/her/its schooling."

Because he hasn't had any schooling. And he pours out his bile on this blog - and others like it - because he is hatefully jealous of those of us who have had schooling (especially those of us whose schooling pisses all over that of his - probably related - parents).

@Laura: "People don't have a right to spread dangerous diseases."

Spot on!

* Usenet System of Classification of Fuck-wits, Dip-shits and Pillocks

By David N. Andre… (not verified) on 28 Mar 2011 #permalink

augustine writes: especially when you don't have a disease and the government is trying to prophesy that you are

For the math-impaired, actuarial tables are a matter of prophecy. Insurance companies make good money from that particular crystal ball. The probability math for this stuff was developed in the 1700s IIRC, so you may want to update your knowledge to the state of 250-300 years ago or so, even if you're not quite ready for 2011 yet.

AnthonyK writes:

is anyone getting self-hating gay*?

I think you will want to stuff that crap right back where it came from, fella, along with the "this is not an insult" weaseling, OK? Shall we agree to speak no more of it, then?

augustine:

Kids are killed. Do I have to provide an 100% effective alternative? YOu don't even have a 100% campaign. It a mass vaccine campaign. Of course some are going to be killed in your campaign. So what?

Doctors are working to minimize the numbers of deaths and complications from the vaccine. Trying to identify the immunocompromised, for example. However, if we stopped vaccinating altogether, more people would die and suffer complications from measles than otherwise. In other words, you can't even boast "we saved more than we killed".

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Do I have to provide an 100% effective alternative?

Since Goofus' syllogism is:

1) Vaccination is not 100% effective.
2) (unknown)
3) Therefore Strategy B is automatically more effective than vaccination.

then yes, Goofus does need to prove that his Strategy B is a 100% effective alternative. It's the only thing that can slide into that premise 2 slot that he's been ignoring.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Antler Feldspar

then yes, Goofus does need to prove that his Strategy B is a 100% effective alternative.

Vaccines can kill people and they do kill people. That's it. I don't have to give you a better alternative to kill more or less people. This method inherently kills as designed. It should be a choice of the individual, not the state, or the individual's neighbor if they want to be killed or not.

"Consent" is nothing but a form or intimidation, coercion, and harassment. The mass of people just comply in ignorance. If more people see all of the history and facts, both sides, then I believe less people will be inclined to vaccinate. The vaccine propaganda machine also knows this. They want censorship. They only want "their" facts revealed so as to get a certain outcome. It's called compliance not informed consent. People in government don't give a rat's @$$ about science, scientists included (unless you want to argue the purity of most scientists). They want to get something done. Period.

It's not about the facts. The facts, to SBM, are a tool. A means to an end.You throw up a stat, I'll raise you. I throw up a stat, you'll raise me. That's why we argue morals and values. The problem is that most of the SBMers are godless atheists with differing values than the people they coerce.Aand/or they believe in some type of state centric/ communist type government where the will of the government (which is an unaccountable faceless amorphous blob) supercedes the welfare of it's individual citizens. ie.,

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

augustine:

Vaccines can kill people and they do kill people. That's it. I don't have to give you a better alternative to kill more or less people. This method inherently kills as designed. It should be a choice of the individual, not the state, or the individual's neighbor if they want to be killed or not.

Measles kills far more people than the vaccine. You are giving an alternative, one which would kill more people. For someone who claims high morals, you seem to know nothing of sins of inaction and omission.

It's not about the facts. The facts, to SBM, are a tool. A means to an end.You throw up a stat, I'll raise you. I throw up a stat, you'll raise me. That's why we argue morals and values. The problem is that most of the SBMers are godless atheists with differing values than the people they coerce.Aand/or they believe in some type of state centric/ communist type government where the will of the government (which is an unaccountable faceless amorphous blob) supercedes the welfare of it's individual citizens. ie.,

So, where are your "facts?" Every time you throw one up, it always gets turned back against you. What's more, if everyone worked solely for their own good, then what we would get is called "anarchy", which is just as bad as fascism.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@lilady But private schools still cost plenty.
If children also have to be immunized to go to a private school, I guess the declining immunization rates are in pre-school children? Requiring immunization to go to school is a pretty effective way to enforce it.
Vaccinations should certainly be provided free. Since it's a social duty to be part of herd immunity. Apparently the cost has a lot to do with parents not getting children vaccinated, at least in some areas. Not fears of autism etc.
Money has a big influence on parents' attitudes and what they do - so it would be a good idea to pay attention to money when discussing vaccination.
If vaccinations were free and required for school, parents' attitudes would tend to slide over in favor of vaccinating, without even needing to argue about it. A good way to be anti-anti-vax is to be pro-free-vax.

Oh, and here's an example of the "Christian ethics" you've displayed, augustine:

Your son is the last person that I would vaccinate my child for. Especially as nasty, self-centered, and intolerant as you are. Your treatment of others who question vaccine safety on here is a testament to that.

Didn't Jesus say something about "love your enemies" and "pray for those who hurt you?"

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Gray Falcon

Considering augustine's periodic support of Ayn Rand I assume he's just throwing the religion stuff out there as part of a "buzz word sandblaster" and not any attempt at putting forth a coherent internally-consistant philosophy.

Why this is is anyone's guess. Is he just a really effective troll? Is his head really full of such a jumble of inconsistent beliefs that he rationalizes away? Is he not intellectually capable of realizing this? Who knows...

Gary

Didn't Jesus say something about "love your enemies" and "pray for those who hurt you?"

Child sacrifice for Caesar? I don't think so.

Did Jesus vaccinate? No.

Nice manipulation tactic of the Bible. Are you a scribe?

What's more, if everyone worked solely for their own good, then what we would get is called "anarchy", which is just as bad as fascism.

Another nice one. Slippery slope fallacy. So not vaccinating = anarchy.

Gary, you're getting in over your head. You're going to need some help or you'll wind up like Mu or Anthonky.

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Jesus didn't use the internet, so why do you?

Boring Auger

The problem is that most of the SBMers are godless atheists

What other kind of atheists are there? Your Joe McCarthy is showing.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@152

You still haven't answered the schooling question.

@ Laura: Yes, private/parochial schools "still cost plenty"...in spite of the financial offsets for textbooks, nursing care and school bus transportation, paid for by public tax dollars, as outlined in one of my postings above.

Vaccines (recommended childhood and recommended adult vaccines) are covered by private insurance. Medicare recipients receive yearly seasonal influeza vaccine and past age 65 receive one pneumococcal vaccine for protection against strep. pneumonaie infection.

The VFC (Vaccine for Children) program provides free vaccine for all recommended childhood vaccines for children who are Medicaid recipients, uninsured children, American and Alaskan Indian children and also the "under-insured" children. Under-insured children are considered to be those with private insurance that doesn't pay for immunizations...or where yearly coverage limits have been exceeded.

The CHIP (Children's Health Insurance Program) is available for children not qualified for Medicaid coverage for parents to purchase very low cost complete medical coverage for their children. The CHIP program was enacted with support of both Houses of Congress and signed into law during the Clinton administration, President Bush didn't sign the "re-authorization" bill during his administration; "Re-Authorization" bill was signed by President Obama within a few months of his administration.

Children who are in "licensed" day care or pre-school programs are required to have all the age-appropriate recommended childhood vaccines.

There is no financial reason, for children not to be fully immunized as all these programs offer "free vaccine".

Just an interesting aside:
The UK vaccination autorities have just removed pneumococcal vaccination from the "recommended for over 65s" schedule. Not sufficient clinical benefit, unless they also have underlying health issues (eg cardio-respiratory, diabetes etc).

JohnV

Jesus didn't use the internet, so why do you?

Ooh, ooh , ooh, good one. How about this? Jesus didn't wear a seatbelt either! Or.. Or.. this one. Jesus didn't...didn't...darn I can't think of another one.

You're just too good for me JohnnyV. I never saw it coming. Touche.

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ dt: Thanks for the posting about U.K health care. I found on the internet "Prescribing Advice for GPs-Pneumococcal Vaccine Programme" (March 29, 2011), which discusses the opportunity for public comment, before any final decision is made. This same press release from the U.K. advises GPs in the U.K. to continue to follow the protocol as outlined in "The Green Book" (which seems similar to the CDC Pink Book), until such time past the public commentary period, when a final decision is made.

Also, the 23 valent Pneumococcal vaccine is recommended for children past age 2 and adults under the age of 65 who have certain serious medical conditions including sickle-cell anemia, functional or anatomic asplenia, genetic, disease or treatment related compromised immune systems and those who have cochlear implants.

Well that's kind of the point. Somehow you used "Jesus didn't vaccinate" as some kind of dumbass argument. Why would you make that argument for some things but not others? I mean unless you're just reaching to justify your behavior, in which case idiocy and inconsistency are just par for the course.

@ David N. Andrews, M. Ed., C.P.S.E.

I have been known to drink only the world's finest gin with whiney ex-pats and former commodities traders, sample transparent-ish California white wine amongst the painfully hip, artsy crowd ... on both coasts, and who _even_ has shared *mint tea* with ardent followers of the "Blind Sheik" Rahman (c. '90-'93)**, even *I* fear the single malts. Whoa: frightsome chemicals. Be careful with that stuff. DW

** I sh#t you not. It's all true.

@ David N. Andrews: I only "bite nails" when in attack mode against Little Augie and Sid Offal and other "expert" trolls and miscreants posts on this blog.

I'm still waiting for an answer from Augie "Where did YOU go to school" and his history of gainful employment. I'm assuming that he is on the public dole, with health insurance paid for by my tax dollars.

Hint to Augie: You might want to check into which presidential administrations "pushed through" legislation to enable you to sit at your computer, without any gainful employment, spewing your venom.

@ David N. Andrews: I only "bite nails" when in attack mode against Little Augie and Sid Offal and other "expert" trolls and miscreants posts on this blog.

You're an ex- county nurse. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing wrong with being a nurse. I love nurses. But you have nothing to be boasting about on here. Your attempt to boost your image by gish gallopping your classes does not make you an expert in immunoloy, epidemiology, and vaccines. I guess the LPNs who worked with you are also experts in immunology, epidemiology, and vaccines.

And as an ex public health nurse that makes you biased toward vaccines. You are responsible to the herd not any single individual that comes to you. They are all numbers to you.

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Your attempt to boost your image by gish gallopping your classes

Auggie, you apparently don't know what a Gish Gallop is.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Auggie, you apparently don't know what a Gish Gallop is.

I know a health department nurse when I see one. They are vaccine jabbers.

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Augie: you've been busted...repeatedly.

If you would take your Prolixin...or whatever anti-psychotic medication is prescribed for you, you might get off the public dole and get a job and become a productive member of society,

I know a health department nurse when I see one. They are vaccine jabbers.

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

Nothing wrong with being a nurse. I love nurses. So long as they don't open their filthy mouths to complain about the costumes I provide them.

Fixed.

@ Busted: I am recently retired from a County Health Department, but I am still licensed as a registered nurse...and what professional license do you possess? (Imaginary cat and dog licenses for imaginary pets don't count).

JohnV:

Why this is is anyone's guess. Is he just a really effective troll? Is his head really full of such a jumble of inconsistent beliefs that he rationalizes away? Is he not intellectually capable of realizing this? Who knows...

Most likely, he believes several contradictory things simultaneously. That, and he probably hasn't actually read much of the Bible, except the parts that make him feel superior to everyone else. These are both necessary traits to being a fundamentalist. (Nearly all of them can quote John 3:16, none will recognize John 3:17.) I keep hoping he'll acknowledge both of these traits, but I doubt that's possible.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Gray Falcon: The troll is a scam artist and goldbricker. He has no disability to justify being on the public dole. Small wonder that the U.S. has deficits, when parasites like him game the system to qualify for disability payments.

The drivel about being a Christian and his "expertise" on diseases and vaccines is part of the scammer's act.

@ Busted: I am recently retired from a County Health Department, but I am still licensed as a registered nurse

The Barney Fife of the vaccine war. Delusions of grandeur are your hallmark. You single handedly stomp out moral ignorance.

Like Sheriff Taylor, I imagine that they stepped out of your way to carry on your little crusade.

By augustine (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

I'm reading "The Course of Mexican History" by Meyer, Sherman, and Deeds. It has a useful (and horrifying) timeline of the Native American population of Mexico, with some of the major epidemics marked.

The Native population in 1519 (when Cortes arrived) is given as slightly over 25 million. There was a smallpox epidemic in 1520, and a measles epidemic in 1529. In 1532 the population was down to about 17 million - a 32% drop in slightly over a decade. Several more epidemics of measles, smallpox, and typhus followed. By 1625 the population reached its low point of about one million - a 96% drop in a century.

Just in case anyone was unclear on what diseases do.

@augie
Who are you to make these vile, ignorant & debasing remarks to people? Do you have any type of degree or authenticity on which to base these loathsome accusations? I am also a public health nurse and find these comments totally reprehensible & offensive! Furthermore I am currently at the National Immunization Conference in Washington D.C. listening to the most respected experts in their fields discuss the current reductions of meningitis in Africa (please look at the numbers: Burkino Faso, 100% vaccine rate, 2 cases of measles in 2011), reduction of polio transmission with new strategies & bivalent polio vaccine plus many more vaccine success stories. I am happy to give you the citations & credentials of these individuals if you like or just go on the CDC website for yourself in two weeks and read the studies for yourself. Not that you will of course. These personal attacks you make are so telling of your ignorance & intolerance.

@augie
I forgot to add-there is no vaccine hesitancy in Burkino Faso. They fully understand the morbidity & mortality risks of meningococcal infection. They also understand the financial burden, regardless if one survives or not. Of course, this is Africa, who cares about these people?

I've never seen the appeal of trolling. It doesn't seem much of a challenge to earn the dislike and contempt of random anonymous strangers on the Internet: one just has to sneer at the conclusions and positions held by other people -- imputing beliefs to them if necessary -- while avoiding ever stating conclusions or beliefs of one's own. Anyway, mission accomplished!

I'm aware that it's probably just as strange to spend one's time trying to make random anonymous strangers on the Internet laugh, but I do find it more satisfying.

By herr doktor bimler (not verified) on 29 Mar 2011 #permalink

I am also a public health nurse and find these comments totally reprehensible & offensive!

Lions, and Tigers, and Bears, oh My!

Well clutch your pearls. Are you offended by personal attacks in and of themselves? Apparently not or you would see that this site is full of selective ad hominem arguments and personal opinions. Oh, you must of thought it was an honest objective view of science.

These personal attacks you make are so telling of your ignorance & intolerance.

In your opinion, are the personal attacks made by SBMers telling of their ignorance & intolerance? What about Orac's continious poisoning the well fallacies? He's made a blogging career off of those. Doesn't offend you does it? I wonder why?

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Actually, augustine,

people are just trying to encourage you to step up and try to engage in an intelligent discussion. Or at least exemplify the behavior that you expect from others.

Actually getting you to make a logical argument leading to an actual conclusion based on documented evidence is probably a futile hope.

But, go ahead, prove me wrong.

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Just in case anyone was unclear on what diseases do.

I guess you couldn't have thought that any of those deaths could have been attributed to Cortes himself. He was know as the conquistador. Cortes must have survived because of all his childhood vaccinations and mechanical ventilators he had access to. What was the vaccine schedule like in 1520?

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

I guess you couldn't have thought that any of those deaths could have been attributed to Cortes himself. He was know as the conquistador. Cortes must have survived because of all his childhood vaccinations and mechanical ventilators he had access to. What was the vaccine schedule like in 1520?

And once again, augustine still fails to comprehend probability.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or at least to embarrass themselves with fatuous comments in public.

I do not really want to try to summarize eight chapters of "The Course of Mexican History" (ISBN 0-19-514819-3), especially as it is unlikely to have any effect on those who most need it. However, the Spanish did not actually kill all that many Natives in war (especially not in comparison with the United States). Their goal was to use the Natives as labor, and the direct killing was basically of the Native aristocracy so the Spanish could take over the existing power structures.

I might also note that Cortes had under 600 men, and there were only about 2000 Spanish in all of Mexico by 1530. For them to kill over 8 million Natives in that decade - well, it presents certain logistical problems, to say the least. (Plus the whole thing about it not happening, as already noted.)

Finally, the Spanish were also affected by the epidemics. Their mortality rates were usually lower than the Natives; 10 to 15% of the Spanish might die in an epidemic, versus 30 to 40% of the Natives. Those numbers were fairly typical for the time, as a brief perusal of historical epidemics will show (of course there were particularly virulent outliers, such as the Black Death).

@lindaphn: Thanks for the postings and I hope you re-visit this site soon; public health nurses are always a rich resource about public health initiatives. I have very fond memories of CDC conferences and the interactive CDC tele-conferences moderated by Drs. Humiston and Atkinson.

Fond memories of tele-conferences?

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Ken, when the first European explorers entered Puget Sound the Pacific Northwest they found evidence of a small pox epidemic that occurred about twenty years before. As you can see from the following, it is not sure how the area became devastated (actually it is quite possible it marched from Florida to the Northwest in two hundred years by Native traderoutes):

There are various theories as to how smallpox reached Puget Sound and the Northwest Coast. Boyd considers three possibilities. One is that Indians hunting for bison or Indian traders traveling by horses carried the disease across the Great Plains and the Columbia Plateau. Another theory is that Russian voyagers carried smallpox from the Russian colony of Kamchatka in eastern Siberia, then along the Aleutian Islands to mainland Alaska and south along the Northwest Coast. Kamchatka had a smallpox outbreak in 1768. The last possibility Boyd considers is that Spanish explorers carried smallpox on one of their three expeditions undertaken from 1774 to 1779 from Mexico to the Northwest Coast. Boyd believes that the 1775 Spanish expedition was the most likely carrier.

The book by William McNeill, Plagues and Peoples says that an estimated 90% of the native population of all of the Americas died (the inverse of "decimation", 9 out of 10, not 1 out of 10). It was not just disease, because if most of the adults who obtain food and provide protection die from disease, then the children and infirm die of starvation, etc.

Ken Medical Historian

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, or at least to embarrass themselves with fatuous comments in public.

Please educate. Are you saying this would certainly happen in America today without vaccinations?

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Yes, Busted one. Televisions can be used for teleconferencing and even interactive teleconferences. BTW, teleconferencing does not include you are talking to Andy Griffith, Aunt Bea, Barney Fife or Opie when you are sitting in front of your TV set watching endless re-runs. And, shouting "Amen" when you watch your televangelists' TV program does not constitute interactive teleconferencing.

people are just trying to encourage you to step up and try to engage in an intelligent discussion

Not me. I'm merely trying to probe the sexual maladjustment that produced Augustine's frothing rage and total incompetence at childish insults.

"BTW, teleconferencing does not include you are talking to Andy Griffith, Aunt Bea, Barney Fife..."

Does online video games count?

Speaking of which. You should have your buddies (wink wink nudge nudge) down at the CDC develop a vaccine video war game. Where the object would be to vaccinate as many people on earth by killing the fewest minorities. But to make it more realistic you could have the evil "antivaxxers" trying to stop you and uncover your plan.

Built in you could have propaganda strategies to cover your vaccinated vs killed ratio. This would counter the artificial intelligence that makes the natives run everytime one of your "kills" is discovered.

You could have "industrial complexes that allow you to "supersize" your vaccines into 100 in 1 shots for which would make the natives run slower in AI.

Avatars could include Bill Gates, Paul Offit, William Schaffner, Hitler, ORAC, Monsanto (no face just the symbol), and Barney Fife (for the wannabes)

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

See? Just completely inept.

Of course the 100 in 1 shots would kill more people but you can see how the ebb and flow of the game plays out.

Propaganda messages could be:

Nothing has been scientifically proven. Prove it.
Who are you to challenge all of the world's scientists?
It's for the greater good.
You'll die if you don't vaccinate.
You'll die more if you don't vaccinate than if you do vaccinate.
You'll get sick and then die if you don't vaccinate.
You will be labeled a murderer if you don't vaccinate.
You're selfish if you don't vaccinate. You aren't selfish are you?
Pictures of kids with disease.
Picture of your avatar with a halo and aura.
SO? WHAT? What are you gonna do about it? Nobody's gonna believe a nobody like you.
Are you going to believe me or you're lying eyes?

By augustine (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

@Narad,

That would be a worthy objective, too.

At one time when I pondered the various trolls who show up at this site, I nourished a feeble hope that if augustine could only bet led to acquire a minimal concept of probability (i.e., that a one in a million chance of something bad happening is better than a one in a hundred chance of something bad happening), then they might be encouraged to acquire a small understanding of reality.

But, it's hard to reason someone into changing a concept that they never state beyond "no, I disagree with you. You're wrong!"

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

Some years ago a good friend of mine developed schizophrenia. He was a highly intelligent and well-educated man, but the illness somehow destroyed his ability to connect ideas in a normal way. It was very uncomfortable to talk to him, and to try to follow his train of thought. It seemed as if he must be making sense, and I was failing to understand him somehow, and if I tried hard enough I could grasp what he was trying to explain. But he connected ideas that were not connected, and didn't see the connection between ideas that were, and had lost his ability to follow a train of logical thought.

It was very frustrating for him too, as from his point of view he was explaining things that were blindingly obvious, but I and others simply couldn't understand him. He became more and more paranoid, and things did not end well.

Both Th1Th2 and Augustine strongly remind me of my old friend, in that they don't seem to process information in the same way as most of us. Neither of them understand simple concepts even when they are explained over and over again. Indeed they both seem to think they are superior in some way for not being taken in by our "propaganda". Explanations that they clearly think are clever and profound seem to the rest of us like word salad that make no sense. They can produce a sort of imitation of reason and understanding, but don't seem to realize that we can see right through the fakery.

I'm not suggesting that either of them are suffering from a mental illness, but neither of them seem able to think in the reasoned way that the rest of us take for granted. I feel a bit sorry for both of them, as it must be very difficult living in a world where most people think you are an idiot.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 30 Mar 2011 #permalink

#158 augustine

Ooh, ooh , ooh, good one. How about this? Jesus didn't wear a seatbelt either! Or.. Or.. this one. Jesus didn't...didn't...darn I can't think of another one.

I can help you out here augie.
I'm familiar with the bible...having..you know...actually read it some years back.
Wasn't impressed with it though. Narcissistic, jealous and vengeful gods aren't my cup of tea. The FSM on the other hand...

Anyways it seems Jesus held that only hypocrites washed their hands before eating. Do you wash your hands before you eat augie? Do you wash (clean) your cups, pots and table?

Mark 7
1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Sauceress, I'd like to correct some misconceptions about that passage. Jesus was not complaining about a health regulation, he was complaining about religious law, in this case, law that didn't even come from Moses. He was complaining about people focusing on ritual and nonsense and not on ethical and moral behavior, something I'm sure you could relate to.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

I guess you couldn't have thought that any of those deaths could have been attributed to Cortes himself. He was know as the conquistador. Cortes must have survived because of all his childhood vaccinations and mechanical ventilators he had access to. What was the vaccine schedule like in 1520?

And once again, augustine still fails to comprehend probability.

It's worse than that. Cortes was an adult. That means, by definition, that he didn't die in childhood. Even if 99.9% of his contemporaries had died in childhood, he did not. His survival tells us only that fewer than 100% of his contemporaries died in childhood. We have to look at other records to find the actual childhood mortality.

For that matter, after the population of Mexico had been reduced by 96% by disease, our troll could still point to a survivor and say, see, diseases aren't deadly, after all this person didn't die!  And that would make just as much sense. 

#176 herr doktor bimler

I've never seen the appeal of trolling.

Satisfies a need for attention and reinforces a self perception of self importance?

Can I get another post through? Have only had access to all the comments a few times over the past few weeks.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Saucy

Narcissistic, jealous and vengeful gods aren't my cup of tea.

Who is your master?

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

#193 Gray Falcon

He was complaining about people focusing on ritual and nonsense and not on ethical and moral behavior

Well that certainly puts most of his current fan club out of favour then.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Who is your master?

Why the One True Creator...The Flying Spaghetti Monster of course!
Pay attention in back of the class!

By Sauceress (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

I thought it was Orac. I guess I should pay attention instead of reading RI all day.

@lilady: It was me biting my nails at your awesome background. Augie's playing down of your experience and expertise is typical of an uneducated filthy little mirrenpapana with the sort of background he has. He's not got back to you on his educational background because he has none. His employment background is also non-existent: I cannot imagine anyone but the most suicidally stupid employer who wanted to lost his/her business actually wanting to employ him. Augie would, had he been born in Finland, have been placed for life in one of the many keskuslaitos places that Finland still proudly runs (fuck knows why... they're horrible places).

"I'm still waiting for an answer from Augie 'Where did YOU go to school' and his history of gainful employment. I'm assuming that he is on the public dole, with health insurance paid for by my tax dollars."

Your assumption would be correct.

By David N. Andre… (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Sauceress:

Well that certainly puts most of his current fan club out of favour then.

Only the more aggressive and visible churches, really. Most of us Christians aren't like augustine.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Falcon, who is your master?

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Augustine on what basis do you choose to apply "Jesus didn't do X" to justify your actions?

Falcon, who is your master?

The God of love and truth. Your god's more like the heathens: Manipulated by spells and rituals, and with no real moral or ethical obligations to his followers.

Oh, and anyone who points out the book of Leviticus, let me note that the book is written in the form of a legal contract. I half suspect most of the complex codes are the equivalent of a rock star asking for a bowl of yellow chocolate drops before a concert: Are they actually reading the contract closely. I'm not an Orthodox Jew, so I'm not really part of that covenant. People who insist on following the ritual laws (no tattoos, no homosexuality) of the ancient Jews remind me a bit of Newagers who want to join in the Sun Dance.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

You're all getting it wrong. Despite the presence of the question mark and absence of full capitalization, augie is asserting that WHO is your master. Y'know, the World Health Organization. Clearly. It's all part of the grand Illuminati/Rothschild conspiracy of the lizard people as exposed by David Icke!

Augustine on what basis do you choose to apply "Jesus didn't do X" to justify your actions?

It's not a basis of action. It is a statement of fact.

@Falcon, Who created YOUR god?

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

I've analyzed Augie's rants (see my posting at #74 above).

I also know some people who have diagnosed mental illnesses and they all want to get well, most do with medication and therapy. They resume lives that are very productive and fulfilling.

Then there is Augie, whose narrow-minded, xenophopbic opinions cause him to hate little kids, little brown and black babies, the disabled, foreigners, gays, lesbians, women, Jews and anyone who has any education.

Now, when questioned about his education and gainful employment, he launches a new rant. I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is.

Stick a fork in him, he's done.

@ Todd W.:

Well, there you go! Spilling the beans, letting the cat out of the bag! I can't take you anywhere, can I?

Do you realise just how much "clean-up" ops and counter-propaganda *I* myself must now initiate and oversee due to *your* indiscretion? Hours and hours of work when I _could_ be playing tennis at the club, dilly dallying with the shills on someone's boat, or chatting with higher-ups about the FTSE.

I know. We'll say it's all a joke. A massive joke. Just creative people having fun. No Illuminati. No Lizard King. No shills. No minions. No sub-rosa internecine vaxplot to decimate mankind to more managable numbers.

You are truly lucky that you're very handsome, useful, and that I really *like* you a lot or else I'd be on the Skype to Draconis this _very_ *instant*! So watchit, Mr!

Have a nice day, my love. Yours, DW

Augie,

What God or gods people may or may not serve on here is no way relevant to the discussion. Back to the topic at hand please!

By Anglachel the … (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ David N. Andrews: What is a "keskuslaitos", I cannot find anything on the internet, except for the Finnish language sites.

Since this blog post is about the informed consent process, I thought it was interesting that my email yesterday from Dr Val Jones's Better Health Newsletter had an article about the Salzburg statement on shared decision making.

Developed by the participants in a Salzburg Global Seminar last December, the document is called the Salzburg Statement. The pivotal distinction here is the difference between informed consent, in which the physician assesses the options and selects one, and gets your consent to do it; and informed choice, in which clinicians tell you the options, with all the pros and cons, and let you choose, based on your preferences.

The statement also urges patients

to ask questions and speak up about their concerns, to recognise that they have a right to be equal participants in their care, and to seek and use high-quality health information.

http://getbetterhealth.com/the-salzberg-statement-patients-must-be-invo…

By squirrelelite (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Gary Falcon

People who insist on following the ritual laws (no tattoos, no homosexuality) of the ancient Jews remind me a bit of Newagers who want to join in the Sun Dance.

Apparently you don't realize how contradictory and silly you sound to your fellow SBMers.

You might as well have said "those ignorant people who follow ancient rituals remind me of newagers who worship the sun."

"I am much better than THOSE people. I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster who sent his little Lasagna down to save me from my sins. All I have to do is say a little prayer and attend other pagan holiday rituals like Easter Bunny day and little Santa Claus elf days. Plus, you get lots of presents."

"Little Lasagna loves you. And you too can be saved if you commit your life to the Lasagna. The good part is you don't have to actually do anything different. You can still worship the Sun if you want. You just have to "believe" the right thoughts in your head and all your sins will be perpetually forgiven. Just don't ever let the two collide It's a win win situation."

Unfortunately for you Mr. saved by Lasagna. The science bloggers don't take to kindly of your polytheism. If you want to take your Science Based Medicine worship to the ultimate experience you are going to have to denounce lasagna. All of the top bloggers have.

Lasagna says there is only one. Naturalism rejects dualism and supernaturalism. Something has to give.

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

My cat is my master, as is proper.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

DL

My cat is my master, as is proper.

No it's not. That is a fact. Unless you are contradictory.

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Augustine, I stand by my statements, but I will not explain them any further for several reasons:
1) It's not anywhere near on topic.
2) It would require an in-depth discussion of the history of Judaism, Christianity, and the text of the Bible.
3) You wouldn't understand any of it.
The short version is that the New Agers who want to join the Sun Dance want to enjoy the ritual of the Lakota people without understanding the culture or values of them.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Don't think I didn't see this one.

The God of love and truth. Your god's more like the heathens:

God of truth? Uh, you have an epistemology problem. I think the SBMers will agree.

Augustine, I stand by my statements, but I will not explain them any further for several reasons:

Good, I wouldn't want you to lose your religion through self scrutiny brought upon by an athiest sounding board posed as the truth (science is equated as truth and knowledge).

The short version is that the New Agers who want to join the Sun Dance want to enjoy the ritual of the Lakota people without understanding the culture or values of them.

Is this supposed to be an insult?

Like the gentiles who proclaim to follow the Jewish Messiah yet have abandoned the sabbath for political reasons? Can a jewish Christian eat pork? You should understand the culture and values before you do the dance.

You have a log in your own eye.

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Sorry, augustine, this post is about vaccination, and frankly, there's no way you could understand theology or culture enough for me to explain any of what I said to you.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Olnurselady

Then there is Augie, whose narrow-minded, xenophopbic opinions cause him to hate little kids, little brown and black babies, the disabled, foreigners, gays, lesbians, women, Jews and anyone who has any education.

Since I know this to not be true. Then the only way you could have arrived at such conclusions is through inconsistencies of logic or logical fallacies. Do you have any evidence of the above and could you explain how you came to your conclusion without using logical fallacies?

I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is.

What scam did I pull on you ol lady? How exactly did you "bust" me. Is this just more of your Barney Fife delusions of grandeur?

It sounds like your jaded emotions are overunning your ability to consistently apply logic. I suspect these same type of emotions are what drove you deep into your ideology.

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Sorry, augustine, this post is about vaccination, and frankly, there's no way you could understand theology or culture enough for me to explain any of what I said to you.

Meaning "I don't really understand it myself. I'm not about to look like a fool in front of my friends.They already think I'm crazy because I believe in Lasagna. And I'm not really prepared to deal with all of my contradictions. So I'll just put my god back in his box and go on practicing SBM."

You worship the god of truth. Why do you need SBM?

You should do a bible study with Sauceress.

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want; He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters; He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for SBM art with me; Thy VACCINES and Thy MEDICINE, they comfort me

By augustine (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

@lilady: umm... yeh. Been trying to find a suitable thing to say it in English from and I can't find a definition as such for it. 'Keskus' is Finnish for 'centre' and 'laitos' is Finnish for 'institution/department', so it looks like 'central institution' in English - which tells you nothing of the character of the place. They tended to house people whom the rather Stalinist social welfare directorates deem too messed up to live amongst 'normal' society. They are known for being very messed up and abusive places and, once committed, one has almost no chance of ever leaving. This speaks of very inhumane psychiatric practice in Finland, and it is not flattering to Finland that these places still exist; and it's not flattering to augie that the Finnish would place him in such an institution as a permanent placement.

I'm not commenting here as to whether augie actually belong in such a place; I'm just commenting on what the practice here is for someone who shows his spectacular level of mastery of intellectual debate.

"I busted him for the lazy POS on-the-dole scam artist he is."

Damn right, you did. And he totally hates that.

By David N. Andre… (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

I realize I am late to this party and the comment thread has gone the way of extended flame wars, but FWIW - this bill may be useful in some areas, but i can tell you from first-hand experience that finding a traditionally schooled MD pediatrician that will endorse modified vaccination schedules or outright declining of all shots is not hard to do in major major metropolitan areas.

At my 4 year old's last well visit I asked our very plain vanilla older pediatrician about vaccines and he gave an "it's really up to you - I don't see any reason to bother" kind of speech that shocked me. He leaned towards delaying all shots until after 3 yrs old and then skipping them because by that age the risks are lower, though he follows the standard schedule unless the parent asks for his opinion. I found it all very odd, to be honest. . .

By Nathan Brazil (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

Nathan Brazil:

He leaned towards delaying all shots until after 3 yrs old and then skipping them because by that age the risks are lower, though he follows the standard schedule unless the parent asks for his opinion.

Actually, that is downright dangerous! Especially if you live in a county where pertussis has become endemic. Not to mention the severity of Hib and rotavirus in infants. Oh, and what about a two year old running, falling and skinning a knee in dirt. Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

@ David N. Andrews: Thanks for the translation. Here in the United States we use different labels for such human warehouses; developmental centers, State "schools" and psychiatric centers.

Orac, recently addressed the unethical medical research conducted at such facilities (Revisiting the issue of ethics in human experimentation (March 3, 2011), where I posted.

In my posting I made reference to the book "The Willowbrook Wars" authored by Sheila and David Rothman, which is an excellent history of the conditions that existed at Willowbrook State School in New York...that led up to Federal Class Action lawsuit and resulting in changes in the way governments treat vulnerable people entrusted to their care. I confess I purchased the Rothmans' book because I know many of the key players involved in the lawsuit...including one of the kids deliberately infected with Hepatitis B...all grown up now. I had the opportunity to meet David Rothman at a hearing on deinstitutionalization and he is one of my heroes.

I continue my advocacy, now that I am retired from public health and continue to take some heat for my "liberal" humane views, when I am published under my "real name".

Chris:

Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

Actually , he mentioned that specifically. He said that for the most part it is not an issue. If something were to happen with an injury that you were worried about, just come on in and get the tetanus shot on demand and it will be fine.

For the other items about infant risks his opinion was if the baby is healthy and breast-fed none of those are worth the jab as a precaution without other extenuating circumstances. If a kid with pertussis or Hib pops up at the day-care, again, come in and get the shot on demand.

My only point was, there is nothing particularly "alternative" about this guy. He doesn't advertise these views and his office is pretty much like any other pediatrician I've ever been to as a child or parent, if a bit old fashioned. He's just the pediatrician down the block.

By Nathan Brazil (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

I am sure there are those who will correct me, but once a child is actually diagnosed with pertussis or Hib just getting the vaccine is a bit too late. Even though they are bacterial infections, even antibiotics is futile. Especially with the amount of pertussis toxin produced (and there is a bit with Hib).

I remember reading that the sad part of Hib is just watching toddlers die without being able to help them. From the CDC Pink Book on Hib:

Hospitalization is generally required for invasive Hib disease. Antimicrobial therapy with an effective third-generation cephalosporin (cefotaxime or ceftriaxone), or chloramphenicol in combination with ampicillin should be begun immediately. The treatment course is usually 10 days. Ampicillin-resistant strains of Hib are now common throughout the United States. Children with life-threatening illness in which Hib may be the etiologic agent should not receive ampicillin alone as initial empiric therapy.

It sounds like the pediatrician down the block is in need of some Continuing Medical Education (CME).

@ Nathan Brazil: And.....you did run out of there and find a pediatrician that knows about the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases?

Sad to say, State licensing boards and the American Academy of Pediatrics do not take actions against these wacky physicians (Dr. Jay Gordon). You have to be a "certifiable" wacko, in order to lose your license. (Key in "OPMC Rebecca Carley" to see one of them whose licensed was removed by NYS-for interfering with a child custody court order).

Who is your master?

Oh, goody, Augustine wants to play dharma combat.

lilady:

And.....you did run out of there and find a pediatrician that knows about the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases?

That raises an interesting question in general. Not everyone reads "Respectful Insolence" and/or is informed about the anti-vaccination movement. This guy has a gold-plated rating on-line as a pediatrician in his area and it says nothing about his position on vaccines on any searches I did on his name. So as a parent you make an appointment and bring your kid and if you happen to ask about vaccines he gives his opinion - why would you think it was "wacky"? You have no reason to without any other context. . .

By Nathan Brazil (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

further to lilady:

I hope it is obvious there that by "you" I mean the random parent that unassumingly goes to this pediatrician - perhaps after looking online and seeing positive ratings. . .

By Nathan Brazil (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

The existance of ~34,000 Christian denominations in the world, with each declaring that their version is the True Christian (TM) version, makes it a little hard to keep up.

34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.

augustine why don't you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your "correct" version of Christianity on everyone?

You think that by simply saying you're a Christian at every turn elevates you to a higher moral ground? Talk is cheap augie!

augustine, why don't you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your "correct" version of Christianity on all?

@ Chris: Treatment of pertussis and prophylaxis for pertussis case contacts with an anti-microbial (typically erythromicin), is recommended by the CDC. (MMWR December 9, 2005 "Recommended Anti-microbial Agents for Treatment and Post Exposure Prophylaxis of Pertussis") Antibiotics really do work to shorten the course of the illness and to destroy the bacterium, thus "containing" an outbreak of pertussis disease.

Ceftriaxone (Rocephen) IV is immediately started in the emergency room...after blood is drawn and spinal fluid specimens obtained for culture and sensitivity...for patients who are showing decreased level of consciousness and meningeal "signs". (Sadly) infants who have bulging fontanels cannot have a spinal tap...they are at risk for herniation of the brain stem. (Fortunately) many "cases" of meningitis are viral in origin and they resolve quickly with no lasting effects.

Another great website for updated information about vaccine-preventable diseases is ACIP Guidelines.

h/t young daddy Nathan Brazil

this bill may be useful in some areas, but i can tell you from first-hand experience that finding a traditionally schooled MD pediatrician that will endorse modified vaccination schedules or outright declining of all shots is not hard to do in major major metropolitan areas.

Well, yeah. Someone who's already stubbornly determined that they hate vaccinations is going to subvert the intent of the bill by seeking out a medical professional who'll tell them the bullshit they want to hear.

But I think the bill is really aimed, not at the die-hard anti-vaccinationist, but at the parent who is neglecting vaccination for their kids literally out of convenience. Like the parent who thinks "Oh, sure, I'll buckle up my kids for a long car trip, but what's the point of doing it when we're just going a few miles? Surely the risk of getting into a car accident in such a short trip is so low that I'm entitled to bypass the hassle of getting each wriggling kid into a car seat."

If getting an exemption from vaccinations involves its own hassle, though, it lowers the incentive to neglect the child's health.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 31 Mar 2011 #permalink

@ Antaeus Feldspar: Great point about exemptions from vaccines for "convenience". It is possible that they are playing the odds, as well, with herd immunity at a high level or their mistaken belief that their child received a partial series of childhood vaccines...no need for the boosters.

We will never convince the vehemently opposed to vaccine crowd to immunize their children, but some of the fence-sitters and youngsters whose parents who are too busy to get their kids fully-immunized, will benefit.

I realize this is a late date to make an observation about the actual bill, but looking over the legislative history, I'm not crazy about the Washington house amendment adopted March 25 to "excuse[] any parent who is exempting a child from immunization because of religious beliefs from the requirement to have the form signed by a health care practitioner, if the parent demonstrates membership in a religious body or church in which the religious beliefs or teachings preclude a health care practitioner from providing medical treatment to the child."

Requiring "membership in a religious body or church" is a recipe for litigation, even if the subsection is severable. It's also a solution in search of a problem.

Narad:

Requiring "membership in a religious body or church" is a recipe for litigation

Couldn't agree more and this is actually where I think there is a general problem with this and what Conaway is trying to do in NJ.

I get the public concern, but I also feel strongly that saying there is no philosophical exemption but only a religious exemption is a distinction without a difference. If a parent wants to say they pray to banana trees and they tell them not to vaccinate in coded peels, you have to accept that to recognize any religious exemptions as per constitutional law.

Either there are no exemptions, or there are philosophical exemptions - this middle ground will never stand long term scrutiny and combat from anti-vaccinationists. It is unfortunate, but I don't see how it can be squared any other way.

By Nathan Brazil (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

augustine why don't you head on over to Pharyngula with your burning desire to push your "correct" version of Christianity on everyone?

James, I'm not "pushing" a correct version of Christianity on anyone here. Maybe your just a little sensitive and defensive for some reason.

You think that by simply saying you're a Christian at every turn elevates you to a higher moral ground? Talk is cheap augie!

I've not taken any moral high ground. That's your opinion. I'm not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers. And it's not the law to do so.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Lilady

It sounds like the pediatrician down the block is in need of some Continuing Medical Education (CME).

You are assuming he doesn't have the correct information.

Chris

Oh, and what about a two year old running, falling and skinning a knee in dirt. Has the good older doctor every hear of tetanus?

You can't be serious? You're reaching. Really hard.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

augie: "I'm not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers."

No, just sacrificing the health of children to delusion, illogic, poor understanding and possibly insanity. That's SO much better.

I hope your children are as imaginary as your intellectual achievements. Nobody deserves a parent like you. Seriously.

By Luna_the_cat (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

James, I'm not "pushing" a correct version of Christianity on anyone here. Maybe your just a little sensitive and defensive for some reason.

You explicitly told us you think Christianity and science-based medicine are incompatible, something only a small subset of Christians believe in. Meanwhile, Lutheran World Relief is providing mosquito netting and water filters to poor countries, devices whose use assume science-based germ theory.

I've not taken any moral high ground. That's your opinion. I'm not sacrificing the health of my child to the state for some moral duty invented by philosophers. And it's not the law to do so.

That sound like an attempt at the moral low ground, actually. We aren't asking you to sacrifice anyone's health, we're asking you to take precautions that have a far lower risk than the alternative. And wouldn't Jesus of Nazareth be one of those philosophers? "Whoever is to be first among you is to be slave of all?"

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

@ Chris: "It seems like the pediatrician down the block is in need of Continuing Medical Education (CME); let's keep our running dialog going because the dullard thinks we are the same poster... I checked the AAP website for CME credits and found many CME credits being offered on vaccines, vaccine-preventable diseases and other childhood diseases...and no credits offered in CAM. However I did locate a website (NCCAM) that offers CME credits in the various "disciplines" of alternative/complementary medicine.

I bow to your superior research skills and the citing of the study/analysis by the AAP of cases of tetanus reported during 1992-2000. Twelve of the fifteen cases (80 %) of tetanus were unvaccinated and 12/12 cases (100 %) were associated with parental refusal to vaccinate based on religious or philosophical grounds.

I looked up the Assembly of Yahweh...seems to be an admixture of Judaism and Christian beliefs and anti-vaccine "beliefs." I wonder how many of them are "ordained" and not paying taxes?

8 years
14 cases
ZERO deaths
100s of 1000s not vaccinated.

Yep it must be as easy as a bugbite to get tetanus and/or die from it.

From Dumb & Dumber:

Chris: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Doctor. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances of getting tetanus?
Doctor: Not good.
Chris: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Doctor: I'd say more like one out of a million.
[pause]
Chris: So you're telling me there's a chance... *YEAH!*

It must be that tetanus herd immunity. I should be so thankful that my neighbor has decreased my unvaccinated chance of not getting or dying from tetanus.

But I could greatly increase my chances by becoming an intravenous heroin user.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm

"Twenty-nine non-neonatal cases unrelated to acute injury were associated with underlying medical conditions, including chronic wounds or IDU (Intravenous Drug User). Two patients had breast tissue necrosis secondary to breast cancer. Three patients had diabetes, two of whom were insulin-dependent. Thirteen (43%) of the patients without an acute injury were known to be IDUs (one of whom also had insulin-dependent diabetes), representing 11% of all tetanus cases."

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Augustine, you worry about a one in a million chance of vaccine side effects, and you dismiss a one in a thousand disease. Think about that very carefully.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Thanks, lilady. I have found that study years ago, and I was always struck by the kid getting tetanus from an insect bite.

Tetanus is rare, but it does happen. The kids who had been vaccinated suffered much less than those who had not.

Another interesting blog post from Catherina on tetanus from a knee injury to a teen. Also, Henry David Thoreau's brother John came down with tetanus from nicking himself with his razor. Some minor injuries can become quite serious.

let's keep our running dialog going because the dullard thinks we are the same poster..

I honestly can't tell the difference.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Gray Falcon:

Think about that very carefully.

Now you asking the impossible!

Also, he loves to cherry pick, more recent report includes these words: "Thirty (15.4%) of 195 patients had diabetes, and 27 (15.3%) of 176 were IDUs." Of course we know he is very bad at arithmetic, so is unaware that even summing 15.4% and 15.3% is less than one half.

@ my alter-ego Chris. You beat me to it. Dullard's citation is from the July 3, 1998 Morbidity and Mortality WEEKLY Report (that would Earth Week of seven days). Time warped dullard needs to catch up on his reading of the MMWR...all 298 weekly MMWRs.

Also Little Augie seems to not understand that those with diabetes and are IDUs stick themselves with needles at a much higher frequency than the general population, and are still less than half of those who had tetanus.

Scrapes, nicks, punctures and bug bites can and do transmit tetanus.

You explicitly told us you think Christianity and science-based medicine are incompatible, something only a small subset of Christians believe in.

The two metaphysical assumptions are contradictory. The atheists know this. You don't.

Meanwhile, Lutheran World Relief is providing mosquito netting and water filters to poor countries, devices whose use assume science-based germ theory.

I've supported similar projects? What's your point?

You're confusing science, the discipline, with the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy. They are not the same.

I know it's common confusion. That's why whoever coined the term purposefully staged it that way. It's very naming is meant to polarize and agenda push. We are "X". If you are not "X" or question "X" then you are "ant-X".

"Our name says 'science' in it. If you disagree with us then you are outright unscientific."

Move over god. We're the new church in town.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Today's MMWR report also disproves the dullard's theory about better sanitation...not vaccines...are responsible for the decreasing rate of reported measles, mumps, rubella, varicella, hepatitis b, invasive HIB diseases, invasive strep pneumoniae diseases, invasive meningiccocal diseases, diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus infections...did I miss any?

Everyone in dullard's world knows that all these vaccine-preventable diseases are spread via the fecal-oral route or are water borne.

augie, could you enlighten me as to your interpretation of the

the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy.

A straight forward definitive answer from you on this would be great.

By Sauceress (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Scrapes, nicks, punctures and bug bites can and do transmit tetanus.

YIkes Bug induced tetanus. There is an outbreak! It HAS been confirmed! Strip all children and spray them down with DEET! No one is safe. Vaccinate them all.

You'd think you'd see more of this bug disease in the unvaccinated since the unvaccinated have become an epidemic in this country. What's your reason why the unvaccinated have been driving in droves to the hospital with unvaccinated caused tetanus.

Do you believe that not vaccinating causes tetanus? That's what you little AAP propaganda piece implies. Like tetanus is some sort of default in this country.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/tetanus.pdf

"Efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial."

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Augustine,
Are you claiming that bug bites do not transmit disease?

By Mephistopheles… (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

@ Chris: More cherry picking from the dullard again. Last paragraph p. 277 CDC Pink Book; puncture wounds account for 50 % of reported cases of tetanus and puncture wounds include insect and animal bites. (Like shooting fish in barrel on a dreary Friday afternoon).

augustine:

The two metaphysical assumptions are contradictory. The atheists know this. You don't.

Any atheist who believes this is grossly misinformed about Christianity.

I've supported similar projects? What's your point?

If you have, that means you'd be supporting people you considered nihilistic atheists by your standards.

You're confusing science, the discipline, with the metaphysical basis of Science Based Medicine, the philosophy. They are not the same.

Really? Do you have any evidence that scientific medicine is a philosophy, not a science? Besides a confused definition of the word "nihilism", I mean actual evidence.

Move over god. We're the new church in town.

This is the other reason I consider you a heathen: Your god is a limited god, who rules a small jurisdiction and nothing else. If you use modern medicine, your god no longer rules.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

I get the public concern, but I also feel strongly that saying there is no philosophical exemption but only a religious exemption is a distinction without a difference.

I disagree. New York State handles it pretty well, IMO, and reading some of the decisions is mildly amusing in terms of illustrating that fake religious constructions woven from the advice of random Internet mommies is unlikely to cut the mustard. I doubt that many states want to get into this endeavor, though, and such cases might as well just admit the obvious.

But the point I was trying to make was that this specific amendment is prima facie an impermissible entanglement, and a poorly worded one at that.

8 years
14 cases
ZERO deaths
100s of 1000s not vaccinated.

Those are, of course, only the reported cases under age fifteen. Augustine thinks this is trivial. The three-year-old who spent 24 days in the hospital, nine of them on a respirator, and his parents who didn't know if he would live or die, might disagree.

Also augustine is unaware that there is no herd immunity to tetanus, and vaccination against it is solely and exclusively for the benefit of the person who is vaccinated.

@ Narad: A few days ago I came across this site:

Law.com "Court Denies Mother's Bid for Religious Exemption to Vaccines" (April 7, 2010)

The mommy in question lives in Great Neck, New York and sought vaccine exemption for entry into the school district's pre-kindergarten program, based on her "pantheism" beliefs. This article is way more than "mildly amusing...." I'd love to know where this now five-year-old is receiving her education; home schooling is always an option for "pantheists."

Lilady

Like shooting fish in barrel on a dreary Friday afternoon.

Andy Taylor: What are you doing?
Barney Fife: Gun-drawing practice, ten minutes every day. If I ever have to use this baby, I want to teach it to come to papa in a hurry.

Barney Fife: Well, I guess to sum it up, you could say, there's three reasons why there's so little crime in Mayberry. There's Andy, and there's me, and
[patting gun]
Barney Fife: baby makes three.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Gary Falcon

Any atheist who believes this is grossly misinformed about Christianity.

I'll have to take the atheist/skeptic's side on this one.

Really? Do you have any evidence that scientific medicine is a philosophy, not a science?

You truly are clueless and naive aren't you? Of course you can't actually answer that.

If you have, that means you'd be supporting people you considered nihilistic atheists by your standards.

No it doesn't. Who is it that YOU think I consider atheistic nihilists? Poor people or people who put in clean water?

Gary, your contradictory Christian views are sinking you lower and lower in the heirarchy status of SBM. The more you talk the lower you fall. They are snickering at you.

You are just being tolerated at this point.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

You truly are clueless and naive aren't you? Of course you can't actually answer that.

Arrogance is not a substitute for an answer. Why do you feel Christianity and scientific medicine are diametrically opposed? Simply insulting me isn't going to work. And don't ask me to answer your questions, you wouldn't listen to the answers anyway. I might, if only to correct your misconceptions.
Oh, by the way, water filtration systems are modern medicine, the life cycles of water-borne parasites are fairly recent discoveries.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

augustine,

You can't determine anyone's commitment to the scientific method simply on the basis of their answer to the question, "do you believe there is a God?"

The answer anyone gives is far less important than the method used for arriving at an answer.

"Caviezel, a native of Switzerland, declined to meet with school superintendent Thomas Dolan because 'people twist words around sometimes.'"

Yah, this is a time-tested way to queer the deal from the outset. Refusal to communicate other than by writing is still pretty common advice, though, from what I come across.

titouse

You can't determine anyone's commitment to the scientific method simply on the basis of their answer to the question, "do you believe there is a God?"

Who said anything about the scientific method? I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn't tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines! And it didn't tell anyone to vaccinate 3 day old babies. Something else did.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn't tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines!

Do count them off in the name of truly informed consent for the populace, Augustine.

Why do you feel Christianity and scientific medicine are diametrically opposed?

It's not "scientific medicine" it's "science based medicine". And I don't "feel" like they are diametrically opposed. They ARE diametrically opposed. Ask the atheist.

It's not just Christianity, it's the belief in ANY god is diametrically opposed to "science" based medicine. The only way it can coexist is for you to adhere to a greek philosophy that compartmentalizes your particular religious belief system. Your little box will be tolerated by those of SBM ideological faith also called scientific naturalism, as long as it does not interfere with their ideology. It's rationalized intolerance and bigotry.

Are you not the slight bit curious as to why this type of thinking is dominated by atheists/agnostics? Do you know why a skeptic IS a skeptic? Do you know the philosophical underpinnings of a skeptic? Do you know what metaphysical constructs are? Do you know what epistemology is?

Do you believe that God created everything? How do you know this? Do you believe that inferential empiricism will lead you to the truth? Does it give you certainty? Why do people want certainty? In your religion do you know what idolatry is?

If you believe in ANY god, you are irrational to the SBMer.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

NoNads

Do count them off in the name of truly informed consent for the populace, Augustine.

Excuse me 176+ and counting!

Do tell me how many the god of science told us to mass vaccinate with. Do tell me how many the god of science said it's ok to kill with vaccines? Do tell me how many the god of science said that it is absolutely necessary for.

By augustine (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

I asked why you considered scientific medicine incompatible with religion. You just spent five paragraphs screaming at me how obvious it is, and asking rhetorical questions. (No, yes, yes, don't care, doesn't matter, yes, you have a better explanation?, that's nonsense, yes, for comfort, and belief in human power over divine love) Let me try again. Please explain, in clear and simple terms, why you believe scientific medicine and religion are incompatible.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 01 Apr 2011 #permalink

Do you know what epistemology is?

Augustine, assuming that it would never occur to you to pull off such a brilliant April Fool's joke, I say to you that the perceived world is the unconscious mind. Tell me what difference this makes.

Excuse me 176+ and counting!

Do tell me how many the god of science told us to mass vaccinate with.

Document your claim, Augustine. You know what happens to liars.

"I can tell you for certain the scientific method didn't tell someone they should vaccinate their citizens with 76+ vaccines!"

Horrors. I find myself in agreement with augustine.

The scientific method is a way of discovering facts about reality, as best we can. It enabled us to learn atomic structure, from which we can deduce that converting mass to energy will make a really big bomb, but it doesn't tell us whether we should or shouldn't do so.  Atomic structure is the same in either case.   

Likewise, it enabled us to learn that certain diseases are caused by micro-organisms, as opposed to curses, but it doesn't tell us to do anything at all about that information. We could do nothing and watch people die or we could use the knowledge of how the immune system works to try to prevent suffering and death.  All the scientific method can tell us is the probability of harm through different actions; the decision is made based on our values.

Me, I was educated in a very traditional Christian faith, intently studying the Old and New Testaments, brought up in a mixed faith neighborhood where we a palled around. Close friends are Christians, Jews, Moslems, atheists and agnostics. I tend to pal with those who challenge me intellectually and are "good" people, who don't hate, don't lie and don't slander (Proverbs 10:18).

There are no passages in the bible that mention vaccines but do mention medicines (Jeremiah 51:18) to cure the sick.

Thus, endeth the bible lesson.

You fools! Here is the number one paid researcher for the CDC who was just indicted for fraud and money laundering and bogus research that turned out not to be worth a damn. This is the man you trust so just keep shooting up your helpless kids. Read this and see if this is 'scientific' enough for you morons.

CDC Vaccine Fraud 2 Millon Dollars
By politicol

march 12, 2010 The man who was a force for the CDC and vigorously disputed the fact of autism and its causes were linked to vaccines has disappeared.

This man not only left the building -he took 2 million dollars with him committing not only fraud but theft which is a felony. This man is Dr. Paul Thorsen took the 2 million dollars that was supposed to be spent on the research to prove that autism was not caused by mercury.

Dear Dr. Paul Thorsen -Americans want their 2 Million dollars back.
Obviously Dr. Thorsen had the credentials, the professionalism that we expect from the Center for Disease Control that our taxpaying dollars are not going to crooks. However in this case that is exactly what happened.

The CDC relied on Thorsen to prove that vaccines do not cause autism which he failed to prove. The CDC relied on Dr. Thorsen to prove that the MMR vaccine were not hurting children which he did not prove.

âThe boner of this story is that Dr. Poul Thorsen is a psychiatrist -he has no qualifications whatsoever in Toxicology and he is not a research scientist that used quantitative analysis for his study. Basically it is junk science and the CDC promoted this as truth and lauded this man for his opinions. You really have to wonder where the US is headed for in terms of vaccines and how many vaccines your children can actually have before they become permanently damaged. How many is too many is a good question because there is not one study that proves vaccines are safe.â

Read more about CDC Vaccine Fraud -Dr. Thorsen and 2 Million Dollars Missing on:
http://www.politicolnews.com/cdc-vaccine-fraud-2-million/?utm_source=IN…

Fraud Dr. Thorsen was finally indicted April 13, 2011 on multiple counts of wire fraud and money laundering. He used a few million of your tax dollars to buy a mansion and a few other little toys. How is this scientific stuff working for you now?

The pathetic author of this most mis-informed little article is about as bat shit insane as they come. If you are saying children who are vaccinated are protected from childhood diseases then why do you give a damn if someone else's child is vaccinated or not? You idiot. If your poor child is so protected then they are in no danger. Do you ever make sense? That is like saying if your child wears a raincoat but mine doesn't then my child may cause your child to get wet!

It is no one's business but the parents if they vaccinate or not. You are the one who is in the herd. The masses are the ones who march lockstep to the tune of the powers that be and don't have the backbone to think for themselves. Those of us who care about our kids and what is pumped into them are the ones who will stand up against what we know is wrong. You make me puke.

Becky,
did you get this upset when you found about Bernie Madoff or Kenneth Lay?

Chemmomo, no because as usual I know frauds and cons when I see them. It was just fun as hell to rub your noses in your own shit. The whole damn lot of you seem to have been shot up with one too many doses of poisonous mercury and rotten monkey tissue, which also changes your DNA. Have you noticed your knuckles getting a little closer to the ground there cheeta? If you are also one of the RH positive gene poolers then you have two counts against you now. Rhesus or Green monkey? I would say you are more a chimp. Yo mamma done fooled around and thar yo is.

Becky, uh why are you being a Necromancer when this is being discussed in a more recent article? Did the comments over there disturb you?

You say:

Chemmomo, no because as usual I know frauds and cons when I see them.

So you knew Wakefield was a fraud all along?

@Chris

Perhaps she wanted an easier target to post her disturbed rant on, with a smaller chance that her "comments" would be picked apart and subject to critical thinking?

I will give the troll credit; she made me laugh at her rantings and ravings.

@Chris...how g-damn stupid are you freaks? Wakefield has been vindicated and even a dimwit can see that. You people are so cowardly and afraid to think for yourselves and fear those of us who refuse to dance to the music of the medical cabal. You envy our strength and the fact that we have the best interest of our children at heart and actually do something about it. You fear the shunning of your stupid friends and families and keep going down the road of destruction, dragging your poor children with you, when your children would be better off being removed from your house.

You would have just as much luck giving immunity to your kids if you danced barefoot around a fire slinging a dead chicken over your head and chanting as you do allowing poisons to be continuously pumped into them.

Only an abusive person would do that to their children. Like I said before, if you put such trust in poison vaccines to protect your kids, why all the hoopla about those who don't. If your vaccines don't protect you from those who are not vaccinated then your voodoo shit isn't worth a damn. Just exactly what does your poison protect your kids from?

Hundreds of thousand of our military have died from poison vaccines for years and that is a documented FACT! If you imbeciles ever learn to use the Freedom of Information Act you might get an education you gravely need.

Next time you take your child for another round of toxins flip the consent sheet over and read the part that states you are aware of the possible dangers that might occur and you take full responsibility in case of adverse reaction. That is what you are signing right before you allow your child to be jeopardized. Did you know that if you ever claim an injection damaged your child after you have signed that consent you can be charged with child endangerment because by signing the consent you admitted you were aware of possible adverse reactions, even possible death? THAT is what is true 'turning the tables'. Even though you are ignorant and arrogant I would not wish that on even you.

It is mindboggling how so many people can live in this nation and be so clueless about how your government uses you, lies to you and bleeds you dry and you still can't put two and two together and come up with four. Your poor poor little children that you claim to love. All that mercury in your system is taking a toll on your brain. Maybe they will invent a new vaccine for you folks who are mercury and aluminum poisoned! It might contain plutonium or depleted uranium. Most of you would trample one another to be first in line.

Exactly what I thought. Of course she has no idea how stupid she looks since we have been discussing Thorsen for a few days!

Becky:

Wakefield has been vindicated and even a dimwit can see that.

Cite?

Hundreds of thousand of our military have died from poison vaccines for years and that is a documented FACT!

Cite?

Maybe they will invent a new vaccine for you folks who are mercury and aluminum poisoned! It might contain plutonium or depleted uranium.

Cite?

Remember, unless you support your statement with actual evidence we will assume that you that you just made it up. Especially the stuff about mercury in vaccines. All pediatric vaccines have been made available in thimerosal free versions for over decade (yes, even influenza and two of the DTaPs!).

To look less foolish, go to the more recent on topic articles.

@novalox...good try but I think before I quip worthless drivel like you. I am not afraid of being picked apart by a pack of hungry buzzards. Preditors are cowards who always work in packs but on a one to one basis will run. Do you guys use the tag team method or just jump in helter shelter?

I highly suggest you go online and google 'The Poison Needle' and READ it. It is free and it is completely documented with official records that can be proven by even the most simple of minds, so most of you could benefit.

I don't really give a rats ass how long you have discussed Thorsen. You need to be reminded of him everyday until you are dead. He is the perfect representation of your ilk. You all thought you had the upper hand with your 'scientific' proof until he was found to be just another crook. No one deserves that more than you knuckle draggers.

With this I am off to sleep so don't think for one moment I left in shame. From the comments I see from the stooge galery I don't think I will miss anything earth shaking. Go rest your toxin ridden bodies and try to clear your foggy minds.

@becky

Again, thanks for the unintentional laughs with your rant. I don't think I have laughed as hard at someone's postings here, which is saying a lot.

Your liberal use of ad hominem, insinuation, unscieitific thinking, and the tu quoque fallacy really makes you look like an utter fool.

I've already looked into your "supposed" evidence and believe me, presenting such pseudoscientific stuff like that as your evidence is just plain foolish.

As Chris said above, where are your citations from scientific journals to support your side? (I'm not holding my breath waiting for you to post any)

Honestly, if your postings weren't so disjointed and rambling, I'd say that you'd be a Poe.

You fools! Here is the number one paid researcher for the CDC who was just indicted for fraud and money laundering and bogus research that turned out not to be worth a damn. This is the man you trust so just keep shooting up your helpless kids. Read this and see if this is 'scientific' enough for you morons.

You're a rather clueless git, aren't you, Becky?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/poul_thorsen_vaccines_fraud.p…
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/tpoul_thorsen_vaccine_safety…

We've been talking about Poul Thorsen for nearly four days now. The whole case is a very transparent attempt to poison the well.

Becky writes:

You fools!...Read this and see if this is 'scientific' enough for you morons.

* * *

The pathetic author of this most mis-informed little article is about as bat shit insane as they come.... You idiot.... Do you ever make sense?

* * *

It was just fun as hell to rub your noses in your own shit. The whole damn lot of you seem to have been shot up with one too many doses of poisonous mercury and rotten monkey tissue.... Have you noticed your knuckles getting a little closer to the ground there cheeta?...I would say you are more a chimp. Yo mamma done fooled around and thar yo is.

* * *

how g-damn stupid are you freaks?... You people are so cowardly and afraid to think for yourselves....

* * *

worthless drivel like you. I am not afraid of being picked apart by a pack of hungry buzzards. Preditors are cowards....it is completely documented with official records that can be proven by even the most simple of minds, so most of you could benefit....He is the perfect representation of your ilk. You all thought you had the upper hand with your 'scientific' proof until he was found to be just another crook. No one deserves that more than you knuckle draggers.

Your persuasive evidence-based scientific argument has won me over.

Becky, you have been lied to. Just because there are countless web-pages making the same claims that you are making doesn't make them true. I have been disgusted over and over again when I have looked more closely at these claims and have found out they are based on misquotes, distorted facts or are simply lies.

I assume you mean 'The Poisoned Needle' (not 'The Poison Needle') by Eleanor McBean? It was written more than half a century ago, and is a horrible mish-mash of germ theory denialism, naturopathy and pseudoscientific idiocy. The fact it is available on whale.to will say it all to most people reading this. It's utter nonsense from beginning to end.

For example, McBean claimed this, about antibodies:

These elusive little nothings have fooled the people and served the uses of doctors but have vanished into theory when subjected to the clear light of scientific investigation.

Having worked with many technologies that depend on antibodies to work, having measured antibody levels in blood hundreds of times and having seen electron micrographs of antibodies, I find that statement so ludicrous that I can't take anything else she wrote seriously.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

On the point of these anti-vaccin groups making some parents think that their kids autism is their own doing, because they had their kids vaccinated.

The reason it works is actually because they get to shift blame, to the vaccines(and whoever pushes the vaccines), more so if they have some information on the subject and start getting the picture that science is more and more showing that there are genetic factors at play.

Blaming themselves for having kids vaccinated and then blaming the vaccine is way easier to cope, then facing the realization that a defect in their genes is part of the cause.

The idea of having some bad genes within them appears to be 1000x worse then having made a mistake (or being "tricked" into) having their children vaccinated.

My dad for instance, when the subject comes up, rather immediately thinks I'm blaming him for me having Aspergers.

The really annoying thing about that is, as a guy with aspergers, I don't make judgments like that. I speak about this subject, without attaching any emotion value's to it. I don't play the blame game (which is one of the rather positive traits aspergers brings).

So, blaming vaccines isn't guilting the parents, its actually giving them the option to shift their blaming from themselves to something out there.

Wacky Becky

Do you guys use the tag team method or just jump in helter shelter?

I try to to stay out of helter shelters since I am allergic to helter fur.

Chris @283 - By now you should know the difference between a fact and a FACT! The latter never requires a citation since it just is. The all caps alone should be proof enough of veracity.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

Yes, Militant Agnostic, I should know the difference. They are the FACT that toddlers know to stay on the sidewalk and someone would know immediately from across the room that someone is shedding a disease, even though they have no symptoms.

Well, we do actually jump in when we all see such a fettering of silly "FACT"s. We love the target practice.

This must be the original helter shelter.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

@Chris

Look at the good point. becky's just wacky enough for entertainment value, nothing more.

Personally speaking, I don't know why parents should feel guilty about a genetic etiology of autism.

It's not like they can personally, consciously control which egg gets released into the Fallopian Tubes or which lucky sperm out of 30-odd million is the one that makes it to fertilize the egg.

@Composer99

Personally speaking, I don't know why parents should feel guilty about a genetic etiology of autism.

If you haven't been through it, it's hard to explain. There's something very primitive that gets activated in a parent when something happens to their child. It's kinda scary what you feel over nothing more than a skinned knee.

This is magnified in our current society. There's an underlying myth that it's possible to raise a child in perfect safety and therefore, if anything bad happens "it's your fault." The idea that bad stuff happens without someone being responsible has been lost. That leads to a strong reaction of "not me!" when something goes wrong.

You people are too brain damaged by vaccine toxins to think for yourselves but I went to the trouble of gathering a few great articles full of cites, cites, cites, cites, cites. I did that for the autistic among you like chris, chris, chris, chris.

Articles:
⢠Facebook crowdsourced investigation exposes vaccine denials of SIGA Technologies

@kreb

Great cut and paste job and how dare you criticize Bean when you are a liar. You wouldn't know one end of a q-tip from the other. You are the one who has been lied to and now you pass it along and add to it as you go.

⢠Evidence-based vaccinations: A scientific look at the missing science behind flu season vaccines

⢠Flu vaccines revealed as the greatest quackery ever pushed in the history of medicine

⢠Vaccine philosophical exemptions: A moral and ethical imperative

⢠NaturalNews exclusive: International Medical Council on Vaccination refutes vaccine propaganda with myth-busting report

⢠The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health

http://www.naturalnews.com/028326_vaccines_public_safety.html#ixzz1Ju1F…

Also, read the testimony of the Congressional Hearings on vaccines to get a few more FACTS, FACTS, FACTS, FACTS. I have never seen so many clueless imbeciles on one site. Keep poisoning yourselves and your kids. Soon you may all get your wish for mandatory vaccines but you won't like it. You just may get what you damn well deserve. It doesn't matter how old a book is if it is truthful. Books warning about the heinous profit making practice of vaccination were being written as early as the 1800's but over time the rich powerful companies won out over the simple doctor or heart broken parent. Now the loons and sheep follow blindly along like the worthless turds they are. I see our Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to parasites like you sad creatures. Well, you may soon get to face life without those rights. Go back to sleep and remember your government loves you and wants what is best for us all.

I see no cites, no facts, nothing except references to Facebook (don't make me laugh) and NaturalNews (worse than useless). Peer-reviewed journals only; PMID references will suffice.

You people are too brain damaged by vaccine toxins to think for yourselves but I went to the trouble of gathering a few great articles full of cites, cites, cites, cites, cites. I did that for the autistic among you like chris, chris, chris, chris.

Were those insults really necessary? Also, if you look on this site, you'll discover naturalnews is not considered a reliable source of information. Do you

Books warning about the heinous profit making practice of vaccination were being written as early as the 1800's but over time the rich powerful companies won out over the simple doctor or heart broken parent.

There are also books from the period warning about allowing the primitive dark-skinned people to mingle with the regular folks.

I see our Constitution and Bill of Rights means nothing to parasites like you sad creatures. Well, you may soon get to face life without those rights. Go back to sleep and remember your government loves you and wants what is best for us all.

Ma'am, we aren't just blindly trusting the government, we are following the evidence. The only one here showing blind trust in anyone is you.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

You wouldn't know one end of a q-tip from the other.

Well, there's a peculiar one.

You wouldn't know one end of a q-tip from the other.

Enlighten me. Which end do you use to clean the spittle from your keyboard?

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

@Becky: Someone as obviously educated as you are on the issue of vaccine safety must have a haven for where you can discuss your ideas in the relative safety of a group and encourage each other to go out an make a difference. I see you're trying very hard to educate the people here, and they just aren't listening, but I'd love to see where you've been getting all of this great information.

JayK @ 302:

I'd love to see where you've been getting all of this great information.

Most likely, here.

Gulf War Syndrome:Killing our own.Film

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/gulf-war-syndrome/

The military who never set foot outside the US also came down with the so-called GWS. It was proven to be toxic vaccines. The average age of those overseas at that time was 20 and more than 60% are dead and others disabled for life.

@JayK...I research using the Invisible Web that is far more extensive than the public web. There you can find professional research studies on any topic you choose and going back as far as you choose. There are thesis on any subject written in the higher criticism realm from professors in every imaginable arena from all over the globe. You can find the bogus research that has been uncovered and true research the PTB would rather remain in the dark. The truth is out there if one wants it. The public web utilizes 167 terabytes while the invisible web utilizes over 91,000 terabytes. It is like having every library in the world at your fingertips.

If you are not familiar with it just google invisible web or hidden web and you will be presented with options for a search engine to use. You will just have to play around with various ones until you find one that is easiest for you to navigate. It is simple once you get into it.

You can find all sorts of research ordered by the various departments of the government and boy, what a deceitful bunch they are. They decide what we should know and we shouldn't know. They have used the public as biological lab rats for years and not a thing has changed. The FOIA released many documents proving the public has been used to see how deadly toxins would affect them by spraying entire communities, putting toxins in water supplies and injecting toxins into unsuspecting citizens. Remember the Tuskegee syphlis experiments? It is quite depressing to know we have a rouge bunch ruling this country but it is better to be informed than a sitting duck.

As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con. It is the laying out and weighing of evidence and the untold deaths of whistle blowers that got my attention. If there is nothing to hid, why are they so afraid? Truth never hides and truth will come out.

Becky,

It's not nice to make fun of vaccine safety activitists with insanely over-the-top parody posts.

By Concerned (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

Becky:
You brag about access to 91 000 terabytes of information from the Invisible Web and every book written pro and con about vaccination. Yet the citations you come up with are:

- Facebook
- A documentary film
- Natural News.com
- A book written in the Fifties (that appears to be delusional) that is promoted on Whale.to.

That's it?
What a ludicrous failure you are.

By T. Bruce McNeely (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

It is quite depressing to know we have a rouge bunch ruling this country

I just knew the Reds were behind it all.

Becky, your frequentCupertinos add great hilarity to this thread. However, they are also signs of a deficient intellect. "They" must have gotten to you with their nefarious "toxins".

The average age of those overseas at that time was 20 and more than 60% are dead and others disabled for life.

I think this would have been a bit hard to cover up. A citation for this statistic is needed. A 60% death rate among soldiers in a war where there were few battlefield casualties is something everyone would notice.

Conerned @106 - I think even Alex Jones would find Becky to be an embarrassment.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

@ Becky: "Killing Our Own" is a film by Gary Null. Citing him for any reason other than inciting uproarious laughter is not realistic . Plug his name into the SearchBox at the top of the page and you will get our esteemed host's opinion on him ( also see quackwatch; wiki-pedia) Null calls himself an "expert" on health, economics, and politics- and I might call myself the Queen of the Faeries- it doesn't make it so. Trust me.

I'd go one step further and pass a law that would allow the parents of children who catch a vaccine-preventable disease to sue the parents of an unvaccinated child for damages if they can prove that that their child caught the disease from the unvaccinated child.

I realize this comment is very late to the party, but the above comment is just... absurd.

As Counsel for the Accused, I'd place the burden of proof on your vaccine, since it is you making the claim that by being vaccinated, the index (defendant) would NOT spread disease and that the afflicted would be spared the illness. Meaning: you'd be required to demonstrate that by the defendant's receiving said vaccine that they would have in fact been free from spreading the pathogen in question and that the plaintiff would have resisted infection - their own immune status notwithstanding. Of course, in order to determine this, you'd be venturing into the same kind of direct infection demonstration that you claim to be unethical, though enquiring minds would want to know regardless. This makes your position not only hypocritical, but entirely superficial and perhaps that is the point, since vaccine efficacy will prove nothing, and you know this. If you want to talk about negligence, then be specific - anyone can be sued for that, including you. So be careful.

Carry on.

Wow guys!!! Did you all think up these witty entertaining comments all by your little selves or did your group home counselor help you? Since the articles I suggested obviously were still over your empty heads I have one more that most likely will fall into your level, Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Seuss. Don't be afraid now, the cat in the hat is not real.

Quackwatch, Snopes and Factcheck are all propaganda sites for the 100th monkey types.

@DW..you probably are Queen of the Faeries or you wouldn't have used that suggestive illustration. Is this a practice run for the real 'coming out' later?

So no, you don't have any credible information to share, you demand that others do the work and search through conspiracy theory laden crap in order to determine the truth about vaccines. Good job, Becky, you've basically made it clear that you're suffering from mental conditions or you're a habitual liar. That probably isn't an exclusive "or" situation.

You'd be better off telling us all about the black helicopters that fly over your house while planes drop chemtrails to try to quiet your truth-telling.

Oh, the cat in the hat's not real, of course.

The fish is though. We threw a party for him when I was three.

It's nice how you throw in snopes, since the site doesn't have any vaccine related pages (there are pages about bloody needles in public places though).

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

@cynic: Prove that you understand the concept of herd immunity, compromised immunity and efficacy of vaccines. Or are you just taking a contrary position to try to prove something, because your post indicated nothing more than a confused mess of logic. Orac and many others that are familiar with the immunology branch of medicine are aware of a future showdown, probably not far off, where it will either be mandated vaccines for everyone under a certain age with no philosophical excuses, or there will be a renewed focus on forensics of viral vectors with legal or financial repercussions for those that endangered the public.

What negligence do you think Orac or any other immunologist has shown by suggesting these alternatives?

@JayK...I did my research all by myself. Do you expect to sit on your ass and be spoon fed? You are so pious and mind controlled it would not matter what evidence was presented to you, you would never see the truth.

Killing the messenger has always been the desired outcome even though it changed nothing. If what I have said is so silly why all the chaos? Others have made statements opposite to most of the ones here but have not received the attention I have. Why? I am trying to warn, alert, tell the truth and am putting myself up for pure hate and ridicule. In the end it will all boil down to the fact that some want the truth no matter how bad it is and some will prefer to remain in the safety of the herd. I am just exercising my rights as an American to all my rights to speak freely. Everyone here no matter how they disagree with my opinions should be willing to die for my rights to do so. If we ever lose those rights we will all be damned. If we only see one side of any argument we will never know the truth. If we fear what someone else may think of us for daring to step out of the approved box we will willingly allow ourselves to be imprisoned by ideals we never chose.

You think people like me are conspiracy nuts but did you realize our Founders feared most the Illuminati and Charter Banks? If you read their private letters on these issues you will see they could be talking about todays world events. Today the Illuminati rules this globe and the Charter Banks (Fed Reserve) owns us. Most people in this country think the Fed Reserve is part of the Federal Gov. but is a private banking cartel owned by the richest and most evil men in the world. It has nothing to do with our Federal government and never has. Maybe if you read Agenda 21 and Global 2000 that pertain to our era you might begin to see the ugly truth. The neocons of this age designed those documents and should scare the living hell out of anyone who has any brain matter left at all.

@lurker...can you read? snopes has tons of pure garbage on vaccinations, all in the same usual lying manner they approach anything. Do you know how to search a site? You are full of shit. Go to google and type in snopes and vaccinations. How sad that grown people don't know how to do a web search. jeez

I see that becky's back, with a whole new boatload of crazy loaded in her post.

I keep think that she has to be a Poe, with all of the conspiracy theory mongering, all the ad hominems, and all of the pseudoscientific thinking that she keeps loading into her post.

But who knows?

T. Bruce McNeely @306

Actually Becky supplied lots of citations. However since they were from the Invisible Web, they were invisible to us vaccine damaged sheeple. Just like the sources of the voices in her head.

Becky - if you are a Poe, we already have Mad the Swine on science blogs and you are not in the same league. If you are not a Poe, get help - seriously, before you destroy your life.

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 18 Apr 2011 #permalink

You think people like me are conspiracy nuts

That's because in your case, you are. You even have "88" within your e-mail address! I know what that means.

I just realized what it means myself.

I feel sick.

By dedicated lurker (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

Meaning: you'd be required to demonstrate that by the defendant's receiving said vaccine that they would have in fact been free from spreading the pathogen in question and that the plaintiff would have resisted infection - their own immune status notwithstanding.

Highly unlikely view of the legal system you have there, where you have to demonstrate what the outcome would have been of one specific case that didn't happen.

Let's say you are a janitor in an office building and you've just finished spreading a very slippery cleaning solution on a floor where people need to walk frequently. You have signs that you're supposed to put up that say "Wet Floor - Caution" but you actively decide not to put those signs up.

If someone comes along and slips and falls and injures themselves on the floor that you made slippery, do they have to prove that they could not possibly have caught themselves after slipping? Do they have to prove that they could not possibly have slipped on any floor other than the one that you made slippery?

No; they just need to prove that you committed a negligent act which materially increased the chances of you suffering the harm which you did, in fact, suffer. And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

Orac @ 318:

You even have "88" within your e-mail address! I know what that means.

dedicated lurker @ 319:

I just realized what it means myself.

I feel sick.

Point of clarification: Does Godwin's law no longer apply when the poster in question is, in fact, the real thing?

dedicated lurker @319

What is the significance of 88?

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

I get it now 88 = HH = Neo Nazi

By Militant Agnostic (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

Point of clarification: Does Godwin's law no longer apply when the poster in question is, in fact, the real thing?

I don't know.

In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn't know the significance of "88" and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address. However, given the type of rhetoric she's been laying down, I tend to doubt that that's the case. The "88" is consistent with her rhetoric.

In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn't know the significance of "88" and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address.

Or that Becky is 22-23 years of age right now... and is unaware of the hazards of using such personal identifying information as year of birth in public fora.

Just offering an alternative; I draw no conclusions, as my personal sanity-filter seems to interfere with my attempts to read Becky's screeds.

-- Steve

In all fairness, it is quite possible that Becky doesn't know the significance of "88" and just likes the number (or perhaps it has a different significance to her) enough to include it in her e-mail address. However, given the type of rhetoric she's been laying down, I tend to doubt that that's the case. The "88" is consistent with her rhetoric.

True. Regardless, even if she isn't one of them, she is still using the methods of tyrants: Demanding prosecution for baseless accusations, assuming her claims will be seen as true by default without presenting her own evidence, outright dismissing evidence counter to her claims. Case in point:

I did my research all by myself. Do you expect to sit on your ass and be spoon fed? You are so pious and mind controlled it would not matter what evidence was presented to you, you would never see the truth.

See what I mean? Becky, if you're reading this, JayK was not being lazy, he was expecting you to provide evidence to back up your accusations. You do have evidence, right?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

Thank you, Becky, you made it all worthwhile. This was like a wonderful little present you gave me, all full of crazy wrapped in a bow of lunacy.

Becky:

Great cut and paste job and how dare you criticize Bean when you are a liar. You wouldn't know one end of a q-tip from the other. You are the one who has been lied to and now you pass it along and add to it as you go.

Cut and paste job? I wrote that entirely using my own brain - you should try that some time. I downloaded the book you referred to, I read some random passages from it, which all struck me as bat-shit crazy, and quoted one particularly idiotic passage that I know from personal experience to be completely inaccurate. Are you seriously claiming that antibodies don't exist?

As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con.

If that's true and you decided that McBean (you might try to get her name right!) is a reliable source of information on vaccines, you really need to read a bit more, maybe take some classes in basic biology and immunology. Try reading Seth Mnookin's 'The Panic Virus'. It's written by a layman and is a good introduction to the subject for someone with no medical background.

When one of the anti-vaxxers you like so much refers to a study, please take the trouble to find the actual study and read it, or at the very least the abstract. Then compare what it says to what the anti-vaxxer claims it says. I have found that it has almost always been misquoted, distorted or completely misrepresented. Do the same with what you read on this blog, or the science based medicine blog. Then go away and have a long hard think about who is lying.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

@ Becky: "Queen of the Faeries"** is a reference to a literary creation- I might have said, "Queen of the Elves" or "Alice in Wonderland" instead- alluding to the fact that Null's expertise is indeed fictional.

In order for you to believe in his ( or Adams' or Wakefield's) tales of the dark side, you would have to dis-regard most professional associations, universities, scientific lit & consensus, governmental agencies, and the media at large, internationally, and believe instead a person with dodgy credentials ( spurious, non-existent, or struck-off, respectively), an axe to grind, products to sell, and ( probably) a saviour complex to boot. If there truly *is* a deeply intertwined, corrupt matrix, why would the person to discover this be a borderline incompetent educationally who happens to have terrific marketting skills? They all want to sell you something. There are cheaper ways to get an education than listening to these guys.

** BTW, it's Spenser. And don't diss the gay men: because they also are sometimes the recipients of harsh, sexist vitriol, they can be sympathetic and valuable friends to *women like us*.

Hope this isn't a double.

@Becky

As for my info on vaccines I have read every book ever written on the subject that I have had access to, pro and con.

Would that be 1 or 2 books?

Jan (@290) comments:

"Blaming themselves for having kids vaccinated and then blaming the vaccine is way easier to cope, then facing the realization that a defect in their genes is part of the cause."

It's even worse than that - by vigorously denying that genetic defects have any role in autism (or by making them secondary to "environmental exposure" - i.e. mercury, aluminium or "toxins"-NOS), the "anything-but-genes-causes-autism" advocates are implying that since the parents caused the problem (by getting their children vaccinated), they are morally obligated to solve the problem (by chelating, HBOT, megavitamins, supplements, magic water, herbs, etc.) and don't dare ask for any supporting data.

After all, those negligent "trust-the-government" parents didn't ask for any data before they allowed their children to be injected with "toxins", pig viruses and other icky things, did they?

But wait! There's more!

As it turns out, the data suggest that the majority of "sporadic" autism case (i.e. cases in families with no prior history of autism - the majority of cases) are due to de novo mutations. The parents don't have "defective" genes - there was a mutation in the sperm or egg cell that caused the autism. In other words, it was a completely random event, not foreseeable or preventable. A genetic cause of autism lets the parents "off the hook", something that most anti-autism advocacy groups find intolerable because without parental guilt, they have nothing.

Becky is such a cornucopia of crazy that it's hard to know where (or if) to begin. But let me point out the most curious of her non-stop string of insults:

"You wouldn't know one end of a q-tip from the other."

Here's the funny part: Q-tips (R) have bilateral symmetry - the ends are identical. Without marking one end, nobody can tell one end from the other. It may be that Becky is simply too far gone to realise this, but it could be a subtle hint that this is all a joke. Is it possible that Becky is an elaborate "Poe"? If so, she's got the stream-of-consciousness word salad ad hominem 'til you drop patter absolutely perfect. In fact, she's so perfect that she seems to be a parody of the genuine full-cavas-jacket anti-vaccination loons.

Either way, she's been entertaining.

Prometheus

I keep think that she has to be a Poe, with all of the conspiracy theory mongering, all the ad hominems, and all of the pseudoscientific thinking that she keeps loading into her post.

Frankly, I think "Becky" is the same person as "TRT".

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

@AF #320: Highly unlikely view of the legal system you have there, where you have to demonstrate what the outcome would have been of one specific case that didn't happen

I am very comfortable in my view of the legal system. Your attempted distortion of my point is duly noted. In order to sue a person due to their vaccination status and claim negligence, you must first demonstrate that receipt of the vaccine would have prevented the index case from spreading disease in the first place. Since vaccination with bacterial vaccines don't prevent carriage or transmission, and live viral vaccines have the capactiy to shed, or leave the vaccinee asymptomatic - where shall we start? When you present a jury of 12 citizens with the fact that, "we don't know how well vaccines prevent disease because we only measure sera and generally exclude vaccinated people epidemiologically due to their vaccination status" - what other reasonable questions might they start to ask?

If a person behaves negligently with respect to infectious disease that is entirely different, vaccination status and infectious disease (vaccine available or otherwise) notwithstanding. If you are meaning to suggest that not getting vaccinated is negligent, then prove it. Tell me how the boy next door that plays his xbox all day while eating cheetos is being harmed by the girl across the street who eats a sensible diet, gets exercise and fresh air/sunshine but hasn't been vaccinated... and he can blame his susceptibility on her because she's the closest unvaccinated person during an outbreak? If you mean to do so with a clinical trial regarding seroconversion, good luck with that and see how far that gets in the hands of someone competent...slippery slope. I, for one, welcome it.

And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

The evidence does no such thing.

Frankly, I think "Becky" is the same person as "TRT".

"The Radiance Technique," or testosterone replacement therapy?

Someone upthread says:

And whether you choose to believe the scientific evidence or not, the scientific evidence shows that vaccination provides substantial protection against contracting diseases and therefore against transmitting them to others.

To which cynic replies:

The evidence does no such thing.

Care to explain whither smallpox, cynic? Or why measles is not endemic in the US and has to come from the outside world? Or how as of April 12 2011 there were a total of 88 reported cases of polio worldwide (Source)?

I hope for your sake that your ability to parse evidence in the legal setting is better than your ability to review evidence in epidemiology.

By Composer99 (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

In order to sue a person due to their vaccination status and claim negligence, you must first demonstrate that receipt of the vaccine would have prevented the index case from spreading disease in the first place.

There are two ways to interpret this statement.

It can be interpreted as "you must demonstrate that, in general, vaccination strongly reduces the chances of people contracting and spreading disease." It does, of course. Cynic may claim that it does not, but that's of no importance; he could just as well be claiming "you'd never convince a jury of twelve citizens that we actually landed on the moon; no one would ever believe it, not when the evidence actually points to the CIA faking the landing in a studio in Arizona!"

Or the statement can be interpreted as "As a matter of law, you would need to prove not only that appropriate vaccination of the defendant could have been expected to disrupt the chain of disease transmission that led to the plaintiff's injury, but that it would without question have done so." This is a ridiculous proposition; it's basically demanding that a crystal ball be brought into the courtroom.

If this ludicrous line of logic was actually how the legal system worked, then no drunk driver could ever be convicted of manslaughter, because no one could prove that the person who had been hit at 6:55 PM and died of their injuries at 6:57 PM might not have had a fatal heart attack at 6:56 PM. That's why in the real world, we don't depend on evidence which is by definition impossible to get, namely, proof of what would have happened in a set of circumstances other than those which actually took place in reality.

By Antaeus Feldspar (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

@Prometheus and other such critters: You must buy the cheap dollar store swabs. You seem like the cheap sort. Anyone who is not blind should be able to look at a Q-Tip brand and see one side is thicker than the other.

To prove one side has more cotton than the other put a real Q Tip in the freezer for one hour. Take it out and drop immediately into boiling water and you will be amazed at the results.

Becky... that makes your original insult relevant how...?

Here's a clue for you, since you seem to have run out. Prometheus, et al, were mocking you for a totally ridiculous "insult." Going all science-y in response just makes it even more ridiculous.

In other words, when you're in a hole over your head, stop digging.

ArtK...get over yourself. You would be the king of insults if you really knew what you were doing. You are a failure. I can prove my point but you are afraid I am correct so you just snap off another childish remark. How old are you, 12? I don't give a rats ass what you or your little clueless playmates think. This is a public forum and I will post what I please, when I please and how I please. If you don't like it go sit in the corner and shut your mouth. There is nothing you can do about it knuckle dragger.

@Becky: Sure, you can post what you want, but don't be surprised if people call you out on it. After all, it is a public forum.

By the way, a very serious charge has been leveled against you in comment 318. Do you believe this accusation is justified?

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

Correction, this isn't a public forum, this is Orac's forum! He gets to decide what gets posted, so don't be rude.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 19 Apr 2011 #permalink

@Becky, you're right! You win! I bow to your superior insulting ability. I don't know how I could have thought I could compete against your intelligent and clever bon mot. I'm taking careful note. I may be only 13 (plus a few years), but I'm willing to learn at the feet of a master. By the way, I'm getting my arms shortened next week -- that has been a problem for me for quite some time.

Now that we've determined that you're the queen of insults here, why don't we get back to the subject at hand. Which was vaccines and your complete lack of evidence for any of your assertions. Or, as Gray Falcon pointed out, the topic of #318.

The fool who posted 318 needs his head examined. I am a lifelong piano player and the 88 refers to 88 keys. It takes a real low life to insinuate something sinister with no cause or proof. Some people will stoop to any low disgusting level for pure spite. Who is the real conspiracy nut? People like him make me puke. Yes, this IS a public forum and if that dirtbag can use libel against me I will most certainly post as I please without having to resort to slander/libel which are both felonies. What an 'ethical' site owner!

@becky

Honestly, the way that you post, with all of your baseless ad hominems and insinuations, and with your particular email address, it wold make some people think about your underlying attitudes.

Well, thankee for that explanation. If you had bothered to learn anything about the boss of the blog you so blithely bash, you would have known why his assumption was reasonable. But somehow I don't think that looking outside of your personal echo chamber happens very often.

You're wrong about this being a public forum. Orac can ban you any time he likes. He probably won't because people like you are amusing, but he still can.

Second, throwing "libel" and "slander" around sounds great, but is an empty threat. Unless you're in the UK, when you might have more of a chance. There's that whole "burden of proof" thing here in the US. But it does make a nice rhetorical flourish. Definitely a step up from Q-Tips.

So, how 'bout that vaccine evidence? Hmmm? Wakefield "vindicated," how? How many books have you read, "pro and con?" Care to name just a few of them? We're all about learning new stuff, so I'm sure we'd like to hear about your sources.

@ArtK..."Second, throwing "libel" and "slander" around sounds great, but is an empty threat. Unless you're in the UK, when you might have more of a chance. There's that whole "burden of proof" thing here in the US."

I suggest you take a look at the current laws on the issue of internet libel and the 'proof' is right on this site written by a man who obviously will write anything to get even, because in his own words "and I know what that means". He is telling everyone on this forum he knows secret things about me and I am some evil character comparable to Hitler. That IS libel.

I tell you what, keep your site and only allow those who march lockstep with the 'group'. Just how far will you people go to illiminate an opposing voice? I would say there is nothing you won't do and that is pretty scary and dangerous.

@becky

Playing the persecution card isn't going to win you any sympathy here, nor will it help your "argument".

And judging by your behavior and postings here, most people would have to wonder about your underlying assumptions and attitudes.

Oh, wow. Becky is hilarious! And not just she decided to type my name multiple times because I had the audacity to ask for citations. Was I supposed to pop out of a mirror* and provide math/science/logic lessons with that incantation?

* Because I spent most of my youth in Latin America I learned about the legend of "La Bruja." Unfortunately Google failed me and I mostly got links to a bad Mexican horror movie (and I have watched a few of those on TV in Venezuela and Panama!).

I have been reading more of McBean's 'The Poisoned Needle'. It is a mind-boggling mixture of quotes from 19th and early 20th century germ theory denialists, doctors bemoaning the poor state of medicine back then, gross misunderstandings (McBean apparently thought that vaccines were injections of antibodies) and outrageous hyperbole. I am very grateful to Becky for drawing it to my attention.

Here's my favorite quote so far:

Vaccination, instead of being the promised blessing to the world, has proved to be a curse of such sweeping devastation that it has caused more death and disease than war, pestilence, and plague combined. There is no scourge (with the possible exception of atomic radiation) that is more destructive to our nationâs health than this monument of human deception â this slayer of the innocent â this crippler of body and brain â THE POISONED NEEDLE.

Breathtaking.

By Krebiozen (not verified) on 20 Apr 2011 #permalink

The fool who posted 318 needs his head examined. I am a lifelong piano player and the 88 refers to 88 keys. It takes a real low life to insinuate something sinister with no cause or proof. Some people will stoop to any low disgusting level for pure spite. Who is the real conspiracy nut? People like him make me puke. Yes, this IS a public forum and if that dirtbag can use libel against me I will most certainly post as I please without having to resort to slander/libel which are both felonies. What an 'ethical' site owner!

I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

That being said, I would still offer a friendly word of advice, although I suspect you won't be smart enough to take it. On most general discussion forums, particularly ones where politics is discussed, "88" really does signify neo-Nazi beliefs. This is widely known. Coupling your anti-government rhetoric with "88" and the apparently erroneous conclusion that I made was really not all that unreasonable at all. I've been in the biz of combatting online Holocaust denial for well over a decade now, and, whether you realize it or not, all the signs were there. That's why you might want to consider changing your handle. Seriously. I'm surprised this is the first time this has happened.

As for libel, well, first, neither libel nor slander are felonies. They are civil infractions. Second, it's not libel or slander if the person making the charge either doesn't know them to be false or doesn't publish them without a "reckless disregard for the truth," neither of which apply here because i both pointed out that I could be wrong and there could be another explanation and I apologized and retracted once my mistake was point out.

None of this, however, should be construed as any sort of admission that you aren't a truly irritating troll who has contributed nothing of value to this discussion other than insults, nonsense, misinformation about vaccines, and Tea Party-steeped ramblings that even most Tea Party members would find not too intelligent.

@cynic:

Tell me how the boy next door that plays his xbox all day while eating cheetos is being harmed by the girl across the street who eats a sensible diet, gets exercise and fresh air/sunshine but hasn't been vaccinated... and he can blame his susceptibility on her because she's the closest unvaccinated person during an outbreak?

Ironically, in terms of epidemiology the boy on the Xbox is being more responsible than than the girl. Nutrition and exercise have many health benefits, yes, but from an epidemic's point of view they're negligible. (Unless we're talking about severe malnutrition, but if the boy's on an Xbox he's living in a First World environment and doesn't have that level of deprivation no matter how Cheeto-enriched his diet is.)

Far more important than nutrition and exercise here is ISOLATION. Before the advent of vaccines, quarantine was the most effective means of combatting communicable illnesses because it prevented victims from exposing those not yet infected.

Xbox Lad is playing alone on his console; Vitamin Girl is presumably interacting with many others during her jaunts into the fresh air. From a contagion's perspective it's far easier to reach Vitamin Girl, and therefor she's at much higher risk.

Thus, I (in part) refute thee.

-- Steve

What put Becky's credibility to the test was the whole "Invisible Web" talk - and then the supporting cites were from NaturalNews and whale.to.

If that is the best the "Invisible Web" can bring to the table then Becky will just have to get used to not being taken seriously at Respectful Insolence.

At least Becky is rather amusing. Compared to the Thing and little augie at least. Cynic is just boring, too.

BTW...where's silly Sid? We haven't heard from him in a long time.

By triskelethecat (not verified) on 20 Apr 2011 #permalink

Say his name 3 times in front of a mirror and he will appear.

I didn't know Sid was Beetlejuice.

By triskelethecat (not verified) on 20 Apr 2011 #permalink

Becky re 88:

So with all your access to the Invisible Web and your super ability to suss out Sekrit Intrigues, you had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that putting 88 into your email address was a flag for neo-Nazism?

From urbandictionary.com:

Nazi skinhead code for Heil Hitler. H being the 8th letter of the alphabet, therefore 88=HH=Heil Hitler. Often found at the end of Nazi members' e-mail addressees and signatures.

Right.

By TBruce (new si… (not verified) on 20 Apr 2011 #permalink

RE: 88

I don't consider myself the most dense person around but I had no idea that it was a potential signifier of nazi affiliation. I mean I even watch all the dumb shows on the history channel about nazis and aliens or nazis and norse gods or whatever else they push. Learn something new every day woot.

That said, I also didn't immediately think of piano keys despite (sort of) learning how to play piano a few years ago for a music theory class :p

I would have assumed birth year or a fan of Michael Irvin or something. Sadly I know that was Irvin's number w/o looking it up.

Point is, something with a possible sinister origin has as least a dozen possible non-sinister explanations surrounding it, and should not be used as basis for an accusation alone. Just keep that in mind, Becky.

By Gray Falcon (not verified) on 20 Apr 2011 #permalink