Respectful Insolence

I tell ya. I take a weekend off from this blog, and what do I find on Sunday night when I sit back down to take a look and see if there’s anything I want to blog about?

Damn if those anti-vaccine loons aren’t pulling a fast one while I’m not looking. It turns out that über-quack Joe Mercola is teaming up once again with Barbara Loe Fisher’s the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) in a desperate attempt for the NVIC to try to demonstrate that it’s still relevant in the anti-vaccine movement after having been supplanted by Generation rescue. This time around, they’re doing SafeMinds one better and, hot on the heels of hosting “Vaccine Awareness Week” to spread misinformation far and wide, is now trying for greater notoriety. Via Skepchick Elyse Anders, I learn that Mercola and the NVIC are running anti-vaccine ads on the CBS Times Square JumboTron on 42nd Street:

A 15-second public service message featuring the National Vaccine Information Center is being shown on the CBS JumboTron on Times Square through April 28. Made possible by support from Mercola.com, the message is shown every hour for 18 hours a day on the 20 by 26-foot full color big screen located on 42nd St. between 7th and 8th Avenues near Broadway and the NY Port Authority and directly beneath where the crystal ball drops at midnight on Times Square every NewYear’s Eve.

The 15 second spot includes the logos of NVIC and Mercola.com and a photo of a Mom with her baby. It begins with the message Vaccines: Know the Risks and ends with the message Vaccination: Your Health. Your Family. Your Choice with the statue of liberty in the background.

Every day, more than 1.5 million people and 60,000 cars pass through Times Square, which is know as the “Gateway to New York” and “where the world meets America.”

Here is the ad:

This ad will continue to run for another 17 days after today once an hour every hour. Notice how the ad itself is cleverly couched in one of the favorite anti-vaccine tropes of “get informed about vaccines,” and then it points people to Mercola’s website and the NVIC website, both of which are wretched hives of scum and antivaccine quackery.

Obviously, given how Generation Rescue and its celebrity bubble brain spokesmodel Jenny McCarthy have become the most visible anti-vaccine propaganda organization, one can’t help but wonder whether the NVIC felt an intense need to try to recapture attention from GR and become viewed as relevant again, even at high cost. After all, it can’t be cheap to run an ad on a JumboTron at one of the most trafficked locations in the world, which makes me wonder where the NVIC came up with the bucks to do it.

Be that as it may, I join Skepchick and the Skeptical Teacher in urging you to sign the Change.org petition, an excerpt of which reads:

We are asking CBS not to run Mercola and the NVIC’s anti-vaccine ad in Times Square.

Mercola and the NVIC have cooperated to run an ad in Times Square on April 26. This ad directs viewers to their sites to learn more about vaccines. Upon visiting these two sites, consumers are falsely informed that vaccines cause autism, learning disabilities, seizures, cancer and death. Mercola actively encourages the public to refuse vaccines. And the NVIC works to ensure that parents have opportunity and reason to refuse vaccines for their children.

Their information is wrong. And the fear these two organizations are spreading is deadly. In the last four years, in the US alone, almost 77,000 people have been infected with vaccine preventable diseases. over 700 of those people died. According to the WHO, measles kills 200,000 people worldwide annually.

If you don’t believe that Mercola and the NVIC are anti-vaccine to the core, simply check out these searches:

Go on to Tweet @CBSOutdoor and use #VaxCBS to tell CBS that these ads are unacceptable. E-mail them as well. Maybe while we’re at it, we can get CBS to finally fire its anti-vaccine correspondent Sharyl Attkisson.

Comments

  1. #1 Art Tricque
    April 11, 2011

    NVIC’s text is incorrect. It should read “A 15-second public disservice message…”.

  2. #2 Clam
    April 11, 2011

    ..and today Joe the Quack sent out this link…

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/05/gardasil-vaccine-victims-and-deaths–did-you-know.aspx

    Deaths there may have been (none have been definitely associated with Gardasil beyond “she had the vaccination and later she died”) but at a rate of 1.5 per million shots.

  3. #3 Narad
    April 11, 2011

    Don’t just mail info@cbsoutdoors.com, whomp it up to Media Contact and Diffuse Editor jeremy.murphy@cbs.com, 212-975-4577.

  4. #4 Keri
    April 11, 2011

    Thanks for posting this. I signed the petition.

  5. #5 Pops
    April 11, 2011

    Emailed Jeremy Murphy, although I am from the UK so whether it will interest him… I did re-iterate in the strongest of terms the global impact of irresponsible broadcasting, particularly in the context of health so fingers crossed. I will sign the petition too.

  6. #6 NZ Sceptic
    April 11, 2011

    A two year old boy in New Zealand was accidently given Gardasil at 6 weeks and now, 2 years later, has leukaemia. Needless to say it was absolutely and inarguably caused by the vaccine and anyone who says otherwise is in the pocket of big pharma etc, etc, etc.

    Never mind that many children get leukaemia and these days the vast majority recover. Ironically while immuno-compromised at the moment, during chemo, he will be relying on herd immunity to keep him safe from diseases that could be deadly, yet the loons are exploiting his condition to try and turn parents off vaccines. It’s a mad old world!

  7. #7 Poodle Stomper
    April 11, 2011

    “Pshaw! Herd immunity doesn’t apply to humans. We aren’t animals or a herd!”

    I’ve actually heard someone say this in response to the point about herd immunity. The stupid…it buuuuurrrns!

  8. #8 Cuttlefish
    April 11, 2011

    http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2011/04/oh-look-jumbotron-wants-to-kill-us.html

    Oh, look! A helpful message on
    The giant Times Square Jumbotron,
    Reminding us to “get the facts”
    And think again, before we vax.

    I found out, after several queries,
    It’s but the first in quite a series—
    They’ll run a few more giant ads
    To help inform the moms and dads:

    For instance—think about demands
    That doctors make, to “wash your hands”
    A helpful ad will tell you “Think!
    Before you rush to use your sink!”

    (On thinking, you’ll recall, they hope,
    Big Pharma’s ties to Giant Soap—
    It’s nature’s way, and cannot hurt,
    For hands to cake with germs and dirt)

    Another ad suggests you eat
    More spoiled eggs and rancid meat;
    To throw them out is such a waste—
    Bacteria just add more taste!

    (The FDA, whom we abhor,
    Says throw it out and buy some more;
    They frame concerns about your health,
    But care about the farmers’ wealth)

    So get the facts, and take control!
    Empowerment should be your goal!
    You tell the experts where to go—
    Cos really… what do doctors know?

  9. #9 Julian Frost
    April 11, 2011

    @Cuttlefish:
    Bravo!

  10. #10 Julian Frost
    April 11, 2011

    @Cuttlefish:
    Bravo!

  11. #11 Kristen
    April 11, 2011

    Cuttlefish,
    Your best yet, IMHO

    I don’t usually sign petitions, but this one is worth an exception.

    And here’s my anecdote: My daughter just got her final Gardasil shot last week. She complained about a sore arm and some aches for a few days after each shot. Then since the first shot, all the sudden (or something like that) she started being moody and crying for no reason! She doesn’t want to listen, thinks she knows everything and has sudden mood swings! ZOMG teh toxinzzz!!! There is no way this would have happened without the shots.

    Oh, and she is less likely to be infected with HPV, which is associated with cervical cancer. So there’s that…

  12. #12 Todd W.
    April 11, 2011

    @Cuttlefish

    Well played, sir! Well played.

  13. #13 MikeMa
    April 11, 2011

    Cuttlefish,
    Loved it!

    Kristen,
    That moody phase: I remember thinking it was at it’s peak (trough?) more than a few times. You never know the actual peak until years later looking back.

    Will sign the petition when I get home.

  14. #14 Jud
    April 11, 2011

    Kristen :-)

    My wife’s Aunt Lena says, “Kids – When they’re babies, they’re so cute, you could just eat ‘em up. And when they’re older, you wish you had!”

  15. #15 MI Dawn
    April 11, 2011

    You know, it’s really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows – parents SHOULD get information about vaccines. I DO have a problem with who sponsored the sign because if people contact NVIC or Mercola for the information…yeah, right, you are going to get real scientific information from THEM. (Brain bleach needed after thinking about them).

    @Kristen: ah, the moody phase. Let me know when it ends…(mine are 21 and 23…)

    @Cuttlefish: wonderful. Wish we could post YOU on the NY sign.

  16. #16 Calli Arcale
    April 11, 2011

    Kristen — with two girls, I fear that stage. :-D My uncle, who also had two girls, shared with me the advice one of his friends gave him.

    “When they turn 13, they will give you a bag to hold onto until they turn 18.”
    “What’s in it?”
    “Their brains.”

    Remembering my own adolescence, this is actually fairly true. :-P

  17. #17 Denice Walter
    April 11, 2011

    Recent anti-vax strategies by the woo-propagandists ( often in concert**) have all included ways to circumvent the mainstream media***: ads in cinemas, woo-meisters’ sites,”documentaries” spread amongst the faithful, “lectures” in schools/ churches/ bookstores, the direct lobbying of state legislators, protests/ conventions/ press releases, You-tube/ facebook/twitter, and *this*. Yesterday, Adams ( @ NaturalNews)although writing yet again about Fukushima, tells the faithful to not trust the mainstream media for *any* news. Instead, they should turn to the alternate universe media peopled with “truth-tellers” like himself and all of the “usual suspects”. Remember, they have the “studies” and the “science”. ( “Oh, what a tangled web we weave….”) And it *is* a web.

    ** Mercola/ BLF, NVIC; AoA/ GenRescue; LKH- NJCVC/ protegee of Null, AoA. Adams quotes all unreasonable existing sources & various health freedom sites; other lesser resources ( ThinkTwice) ride coat-tails.

    *** I wonder why that is?

  18. #18 Michael
    April 11, 2011

    Signed the petition and sent an email to Jeremy Murphy. Got the “out of office” reply. Hopefully he’ll be in for a big surprise when he checks in…

  19. #19 Dicty
    April 11, 2011

    @Cuttlefish

    I find it very interesting that you declined to include a verse about being advised to eat your veggies. Obviously you are a shill for Big Agri.

  20. #20 DW
    April 11, 2011

    Oh, and speaking of “tangled webs”, Andy himself is to speak at Brandeis Wednesday ( via Jake Crosby, today, AoA).

  21. #21 Scott Cunningham
    April 11, 2011

    Mercola, Fisher, Andrew Wakefield. By their power combined, they are viral reservoir!

    Well done, Cuttlefish. I’m off to sign that petition.

    Wait. Can non-US-citizens sign internet petitions, or is that one of those rights that got stripped from foreigners?

  22. #22 Rose
    April 11, 2011

    Kristen–I never had the Gardasil shot, and I rarely had mood swings. Its obviously teh ebil Gardasil! Two isolated anecdotes must mean its science!
    For the record, I never had Gardasil because I’m overwhelmingly terrified of needles and am married. If I were to get divorced or lose my husband, you bet I would find a way to get the shots.

  23. #23 Scott Cunningham
    April 11, 2011

    Works fine. There’s an entry asking for your country. Foreigner signatures are a go!

  24. #24 Stephanie Jones
    April 11, 2011

    I refuse to sign. I have 2 vaccine injured kids. What they injuries are, why bother explaining. No one, who hasn’t had a child injured by a vaccine, even attempts to understand why we urge parents to KNOW what they are injecting into their children BEFORE they do it. We- whom you label “anti-vaccine” rarely are. We have vaccinated out kids, and learned the hard way that they are not 100% safe for ALL kids. Some should never see the FIRST vaccination, but no one ever even lets us get that far in explanations- we tell them to play it smart- and we get labeled as an anti-vaccination-ist. Ok, fine. Dn’t do your research, don’t choose s different schedule, a SAFER schedule. All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated. We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can’t afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS, and we don’t have big pharma in our pockets. You ask for certain tests to be run beforeyou vaccinate your kids, and you are refused as there is “no medical reason” for the tests to be run. Then, after a vaccine injury, you ask again, and they run the test you asked for before, and find HUGE medical issues, and you are then exempt from vaccines for the REST OF YOUR LIFE because they could cause a “major brain injury” in the “future” if they recieve any further vaccinations. An injury which would NOT have happened, if they had given the blood test that was asked for BEFORE they were injured in the first place, but there was no cause for it. Hmmm…. really? Maybe if people were the slightest bit informed of BOTH sides of the story, people would have their kids tested BEFORE vaccination, and fewer injuries would happen. And FYI, did you know that the Hep B vaccination, given at birth, causes more injuries to children, than Hep B does yearly in the US?? Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed, vs. the PROVEN amount of new Hep B cases listed by the CDC. The ads from the CDC says 300,000 new cases in the US each year. The actual numbers of cases listed at the CDC was less than 2% of that. The difference in numbers is staggering.

  25. #25 Patricia
    April 11, 2011

    I refuse to sign. No one, who hasn’t had a child injured by a vaccine, even attempts to understand why we urge parents to KNOW what they are injecting into their children BEFORE they do it. We- whom you label “anti-vaccine” rarely are. I had to learn the hardway about the dangers of these vaccines and had to watch my children suffer, and I cried with them. I shouldnt have been so blind, I shouldn’t have trusted those vaccines were safe. So while people are getting rich off these vaccines, their are children dying, having severe reactions to them and no one cares! Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed, vs. the PROVEN amount of new Hep B cases listed by the CDC. The ads from the CDC says 300,000 new cases in the US each year. The actual numbers of cases listed at the CDC was less than 2% of that. The difference in numbers is staggering.

  26. #26 Gray Falcon
    April 11, 2011

    Tell me, how do you two know that vaccines were responsible for what you’re talking about? Oh, and if you suggest that it was simply because it was in the same timeframe, try to remember what else you did in that time.

  27. #27 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 11, 2011

    Stephanie Jones,
    I don’t recall anyone in this forum ever saying that vaccines were 100% safe for all people, nor do I recall anyone denying that there can be serious injuries from vaccines.
    You state that

    You ask for certain tests to be run before you vaccinate your kids, and you are refused as there is “no medical reason” for the tests to be run. Then, after a vaccine injury, you ask again, and they run the test you asked for before, and find HUGE medical issues, and you are then exempt from vaccines for the REST OF YOUR LIFE because they could cause a “major brain injury” in the “future” if they recieve any further vaccinations. An injury which would NOT have happened, if they had given the blood test that was asked for BEFORE they were injured in the first place, but there was no cause for it. Hmmm…. really? Maybe if people were the slightest bit informed of BOTH sides of the story, people would have their kids tested BEFORE vaccination, and fewer injuries would happen.

    Can you say what tests are routinely being refused and give some link to data or studies showing how those tests would prevent these injuries?
    Thanks.

  28. #28 Jud
    April 11, 2011

    Hmm – Patricia, meet Stephanie. Stephanie, Patricia. Oh, you’ve already met (and agreed on what you were going to post, or both got your wording from the same place, or you’re the same person)?

  29. #29 Lawrence
    April 11, 2011

    It is just me, or are Stephanie & Patricia cutting and pasting from the same source (or are the same person)?

  30. #30 Jud
    April 11, 2011

    Hah! For anyone who’s wondering, Lawrence and I are *not* the same person. (Much to Lawrence’s relief, I’m sure.)

  31. #31 Lawrence
    April 11, 2011

    Are you sure?

  32. #32 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    Your paranoia regarding an innocuous ad simply asking parents to become aware of vaccines and their rights in regards to them reveals what a decrepit house of cards the vaccine program really is. It can only exist by way of force, propaganda and censorship. What a great miracle they are. If the people could just see it.

  33. #33 Stephanie
    April 11, 2011

    No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams. If vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway. The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this. This is America and individuals have the fundamental right to a choice. What choice one person makes shouldn’t affect another…if you get vaccinated because you believe that vaccine works, an unvaccinated person should pose no threat to you. “Herd immunity” was first discovered before vaccinations existed when populations that recovered from a disease developed lifetime immunity. “Herd immunity” was picked up by vaccine manufacturers thereafter and used for their public relations and marketing campaign. It is a theory that scares most into believing vaccinations save the world. Health simply does not come through a needle.

  34. #34 Militant Agnostic
    April 11, 2011

    Stephanie

    No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams.

    Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream. I think your “research” may be a wee bit deficient.

  35. #35 Stacy
    April 11, 2011

    Anyone who allegedly spends years researching vaccines and still does not vaccinate isn’t really researching. Shame on Mercola and company. New Yorkers deserve better than disease spreading idiocy.

  36. #36 Beamup
    April 11, 2011

    The ad is not “asking parents to become aware of vaccines and their rights.” The ad is asking parents to come be lied to, deceived, and defrauded.

    The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate.

    Citation needed.

    if you get vaccinated because you believe that vaccine works, an unvaccinated person should pose no threat to you.

    False. Vaccination does not provide 100% protection, and some people have contraindications to being vaccinated.

    Health simply does not come through a needle.

    Death and permanent disability come from avoiding them, though.

  37. #37 Stephanie
    April 11, 2011

    It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

  38. #38 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    Death and permanent disability come from avoiding them, though

    For some, the odds of the above are too miniscule to justify the risks, both known and unknown, of vaccination.

  39. #39 JayK
    April 11, 2011

    Stephanie, when do they inject vaccines directly into the bloodstream? Which vaccines are injected directly into a vein?

    I’m still waiting for my checks from Merck, can you let me know when they’re coming?

  40. #40 Militant Agnostic
    April 11, 2011

    For some, the odds of the above are too miniscule to justify the risks, both known and unknown imaginary, of vaccination.

    FTFY

  41. #41 Cuttlefish
    April 11, 2011

    Stehanie, I’d be happy to have a drug manufacturer pay me for my little verse. Sadly, none has offered.

  42. #42 Science Mom
    April 11, 2011

    Your paranoia regarding an innocuous ad simply asking parents to become aware of vaccines and their rights in regards to them reveals what a decrepit house of cards the vaccine program really is. It can only exist by way of force, propaganda and censorship. What a great miracle they are. If the people could just see it.

    If the advert was so innocuous and has the target audience’s best interest in mind, then why not show urls for the many objective sites regarding diseases, vaccines and excipients? Their not fooling anyone who doesn’t want to be fooled.

  43. #43 Pablo
    April 11, 2011

    The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate.

    Stephanie –

    Please justify this comment. Provide us with some examples of which you aware of people who spent years researching vaccinations and decided not to vaccinate.

    In particular, please justify your claim that they spent years “researching” vaccinations.

    For example, I can find scientific articles published by Paul Offit extending over many years describing the results of his vaccination research if you want, which would provide a basis for my claim that Paul Offit has spent years researching vaccination. I would have to rely moreso on interviews to support my claim that he does have his children vaccinated (I know his son has the Gardisal vaccine even).

    There’s one. Your turn.

  44. #44 Science Mom
    April 11, 2011

    And that would be “they’re, not “their”.

  45. #45 Scott Cunningham
    April 11, 2011

    Stephanie, Patricia

    Oh yes, a “safer schedule.” My parents tried that, making up a schedulae as they went along because the man on TV (okay, Barbara Loe Fisher in the 80’s) said it was “too many too soon,” and they thereby missed all the free clinics for TB shots and numerous others. I got my vaccination record and, big shock, I’m missing most of my childhood vaccinations, and now must save up my own cash to get them as an adult.

    Where’s my health freedom?

    When I get my seasonal flu shot, I’m given a paper document to sign, outlining the possible complications (just the real ones.) I have informed consent. This ad by Fisher and Mercola is misinformed consent. It’s using unfounded fears and unreal dangers, refuted time and again by repeated scientific study, to try to scare parents, like mine, out of vaccinating their kids, like me.

    Children are “dying of vaccines?” How about pertussis, TB, measles, and other vaccine preventable diseases? Refusing vaccines in the name of safety is like driving without a seatbelt because you’re afraid it might choke you, while speeding, so you spend less time on the road, fishtailing like mad to try to dodge oncoming traffic. It’s supreme foolishness.

    “Do your own research”? I have, unless you mean internet crackpot sites like PrisonPlanet and Natural News. You know, back in the day we used to know the internet was full of crazy conspiracy theories with no foundation in reality. Nowadays, everyone’s talking about Obama not being a citizen and the alien implants up their noses instead. It’s time we remember the internet is an insane asylum with voluntary self-admittance.

  46. #46 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Pablo

    For example, I can find scientific articles published by Paul Offit extending over many years describing the results of his vaccination research if you want, which would provide a basis for my claim that Paul Offit has spent years researching vaccination. I would have to rely moreso on interviews to support my claim that he does have his children vaccinated (I know his son has the Gardisal vaccine even).

    Yeah, but Paul Offit (do you have a statue of him in front of your house?) is invariably wrong when talking about vaccination. For example he states in one of his little vaccine books:

    Before vaccines, Americans could expect that every year…rubella (German measles) would cause 20,000 babies to be born blind, deaf, or mentally retarded…

    Yet those 20,000 children were victims of a once in a generation epidemic. So why should anyone expect that to happen every year?

    You really do have to find another idol Pablo.

  47. #47 Daniel J. Andrews
    April 11, 2011

    It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

    I represent Bayer. I bought aspirin last week. That must make me a shill.

    I can’t help but notice though that you didn’t respond to the posts pointing out your misconceptions based on your lack of knowledge. Instead you just tossed out the Pharma-Shill gambit.

    If you can’t get the simple things right (vaccines injected into bloodstream, vaccinated don’t need to fear non-vaccinated, for example), then perhaps you should reconsider if you have the rest of it right.

  48. #48 Science Mom
    April 11, 2011

    No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams.

    So many canards, so little time. Which vaccines are IV injected Stephanie? Is that what your “years of research” fetched you?

    If vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway.

    Sure, if they have half a brain and stick to sources that are reliable. No one ever comes away believing that vaccines are absolutely safe. They come away with knowing that the risks are minuscule and the benefits far outweigh them.

    The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this.

    Years of Google Uni you mean; that’s not research and certainly doesn’t trump what bona fide experts who actually do research know.

    This is America and individuals have the fundamental right to a choice. What choice one person makes shouldn’t affect another…if you get vaccinated because you believe that vaccine works, an unvaccinated person should pose no threat to you.

    Yes, you do have a choice, so why keep making such bad ones? Your choices do affect others. Again Stephanie, your “research” is showing and it isn’t pretty, or knowledgeable.

    “Herd immunity” was first discovered before vaccinations existed when populations that recovered from a disease developed lifetime immunity. “Herd immunity” was picked up by vaccine manufacturers thereafter and used for their public relations and marketing campaign. It is a theory that scares most into believing vaccinations save the world. Health simply does not come through a needle.

    No dear, it doesn’t quite work like that. You see, susceptible people keep entering the herd, drat that. Herd immunity is an epidemiological theory which explains, quite nicely I might add, how to prevent susceptibility. So much for your years of research, pretty wasted time I’d say.

    Oh and the pharma shill gambit is so last year. If you can’t argue the merits, then don’t be such an ass as to stoop to calling your detractors pharma shills.

  49. #49 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Scott

    now must save up my own cash to get them as an adult.

    What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

    “Do your own research”? I have, unless you mean internet crackpot sites like PrisonPlanet and Natural News.

    Yes it’s better to go to sites supported by the drug companies selling the vaccines and the government agencies pushing them

  50. #50 Beamup
    April 11, 2011

    It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

    Ah yes, because you’re so unbelievably infallible that nobody could possibly disagree with you for such a trivial reason as, you know, you’re so grossly wrong it’s like saying that 1+1=giraffe.

    Seriously. Some evidence, please.

  51. #51 Scott Cunningham
    April 11, 2011

    if vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway. The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this.

    Yes there is! Propaganda works!

    And no, parents won’t vaccinate their kids if its safe, because there’s tons of misleading antivax propaganda out there designed to fool them, and they don’t know the first thing about how to evaluate scientific evidence.

    Parents are a couple of barely adult punk kids playing with hair gel and finding somewhere else on their clothes to fit a silver skull pin. (Mine were, anyway.) Well-meaning they may be, but doctors they are not!

  52. #52 Militant Agnostic
    April 11, 2011

    It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?

    This is rich coming after 2 supposedly different anti-vaxxers make consecutive posts containing several sentences that are identical.

  53. #53 Scott Cunningham
    April 11, 2011

    Bridge Troll

    What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

    Canadian speaking.

  54. #54 MI Dawn
    April 11, 2011

    I am SO tired of being called a pharma shill. For pete’s sake, where do these idiot parents come from who insist that anyone who doesn’t agree with them have to be pharma shills? For the record, I have never worked, done research or been paid by a pharmacological manufacturer. I HAVE had my children vaccinated, I have been vaccinated, my husband has been vaccinated. I am NOT immune to all those things that I have either a)had as a child or b)been vaccinated against because vaccines are not 100% effective at giving immunity(and neither are the real diseases) However, the serious effects of the diseases are generally worse than the vaccines.

    Oh, and Silly Sid: No. Epidemics of pertussis, measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc went through pretty much every year, because as pointed out to you before, vulnerable people (newborns, people who were immunodeficient) keep entering the pool. While we are all aware that you have no social conscience, there are those of us who DO care about our neighbor’s children as well as our own.

  55. #55 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Patricia:

    So while people are getting rich off these vaccines, their are children dying, having severe reactions to them and no one cares! Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed,

    Please list the PubMed cites of the case studies of the children who have died from vaccines. And then please provide the PubMed cites showing that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.

    Also, it is VAERS. It is not considered real evidence, just self-reported raw data. That cannot be used as proof until the reports are investigated. It even says so on its website, VAERS Does Not Determine Causality:

    Although VAERS can rarely provide definitive evidence of causal associations between vaccines and particular risks, its unique role as a national spontaneous reporting system enables the early detection of signals that can then be more rigorously investigated. VAERS receives reports of many events that occur after immunization. Some of these events may occur coincidentally following vaccination, while others may truly be caused by vaccination. Studies help determine if there is more than a temporal (time) association between immunization and adverse events. The fact that an adverse event occurred following immunization is not conclusive evidence that the event was caused by a vaccine. Factors such as medical history, diagnostic tests, and other medication given near the time of vaccination must be examined to help to determine the cause of adverse events.

  56. #56 JohnV
    April 11, 2011

    @Sid Offit,

    Glad to see you taking a break from celebrating the demise of brown skinned people to vaccine preventable diseases to spew out some idiotic libertarian jackassery for us.

  57. #57 wintermute
    April 11, 2011

    And FYI, did you know that the Hep B vaccination, given at birth, causes more injuries to children, than Hep B does yearly in the US??

    That way well be true, but how does the sum total of Hep B vaccine injuries + Heb B infection injuries compare to the number of Hep B infection injuries before we started vaccinating?

    Has the net result of vaccination been more of fewer injuries? And remember to show your work.

  58. #58 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    Jackassery? That’s clever. Did you make it up?

  59. #59 wintermute
    April 11, 2011

    What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication

    Becuase, of course, the state has no interest in having a healthy (or even living!) workforce. And, of course, as diseases can’t be transmitted from person to person, you have no possible interest in whether or not your neighbour comes down with tuberculosis, right?

    If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can’t afford to get treated, there’s no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare. It’s all very well saying that his boss is *probably* paying *some* of those costs, and passing the cost onto you, but how much effort do you go to to make sure that’s true?

  60. #60 René Najera
    April 11, 2011

    Robert Schecter, aka Sid Offit, wants to start his own petition against Skepchic’s petition. Here’s the kicker. Schecter thinks it was Orac that is “spearheading” the petition.

    His research skills are sorely lacking for the smallest of details. Poor troll.

    (Bonus, he e-mailed CBS to complain about censoring.)

  61. #61 lilady
    April 11, 2011

    @ Sid Offal: We’ve been missing you on this blog; Augie, One Gay Fish, prn and other trolls have been doing all the “heavy lifting” for you.

    Stephanie and Patricia have to be the same trolls who are lifting their comments from an anti-vax site. It is entirely too coincidental that they both use the misspelled words, mangled sentences and pseudo-scientific arguments.

    We are still awaiting the vaccines “that are injected into the bloodstream”…must be a new type of vaccine, that we never heard of.

  62. #62 rob
    April 11, 2011

    i refused to sign the petition. i am still waiting for the BiG PhaRma Rep to show up in a black helicopter and hand me a tremendous bag of cash.

  63. #63 Roadstergal
    April 11, 2011

    Late to the party, but Cuttlefish – brilliant.

    “No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams.”

    Er – are you really injecting shite into your kids’ bloodstreams? Without knowing in advance what it is? You should probably stop.

    IM vaccinations by a doc or RN are fine, as are things like SC insulin if they’re diabetic.

    (I tutor as part of a partnership with a local school – my tutee was telling me, a few weeks ago, how jealous she is of her younger schoolfellows, who get vaccinated for chicken pox. She got it and couldn’t sit or lie down comfortably for a week. We swapped chicken pox stories.

    I got the HepB vaccine when I started getting serious about tattoos and piercings. I’m careful about finding parlors that have clean prcedure rooms, autoclave their tools, and can show me their autoclave and current autoclave inspection cerificiate, but HepB is just ridiculous in its ability to survive outside of the body.

    Needless to say, thanks to mom and dad and the generations who came before, I’ve never had smallpox, polio, whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, or tetanus (and considering how many rusty nails I’ve stepped on or been stabbed by, the latter is saying something). Vaccines are made of win.)

  64. #64 Poodle Stomper
    April 11, 2011

    Sorry Rob,

    No cash for you. Big Pharma paid me in black helicopters. You’d think they’d have more with all the cash they make forcibly vaxing children and then eating their souls but they had a shortage so I have them all…also their briefcases of cash. Sorry!

  65. #65 Alexis
    April 11, 2011

    Please justify this comment. Provide us with some examples of which you aware of people who spent years researching vaccinations and decided not to vaccinate.

    I can. Of course, in order to make this statement true, I have to redefine the word “research.” If, by “research”, you mean “read secondhand approved anti-vaccination sources”, which is generally what is meant by anti-vaccinationists, then it’s a perfectly true statement.

  66. #66 herr doktor bimler
    April 11, 2011

    Yet those 20,000 children were victims of a once in a generation epidemic. So why should anyone expect that to happen every year?

    The good thing about epidemics is that you know in advance when a rubella epidemic is coming so you can choose not to be pregnant that year.

  67. #67 Narad
    April 11, 2011

    You know, it’s really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows – parents SHOULD get information about vaccines.

    Oh, I have a problem with the first panel. “Vaccines: Know the Risks.” There’s a certain… something missing.

  68. #68 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @wintermute

    Any relation to Homulus?

    If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can’t afford to get treated, there’s no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare

    Bagel boy’s boss needs to tell him to go home. If he’s noticibly infectious and still working that would actually be a legitimate spere into which the government could enter

    @lilady

    Thanks, I’ve missed you too. I was devastated to discover I missed the rip roaring discussion concerning the Brady Bunch and measles.

  69. #69 goatgirl
    April 11, 2011

    There is a difference, albeit subtle, between people who have “researched” the issue and people who don’t have enough information to make what could reasonably be considered an informed choice.

    To wit, the Somali immigrant community in Mpls.-St. Paul, where a recent measles outbreak was traced to a child who imported the disease from Kenya and spread it to children who were either too young to be vaccinated or hadn’t been vaccinated because of fears of autism.

    According to this article (link below), many Somali mothers are being manipulated by none other than Andrew Wakefield to fear the MMR vaccine and blame their children’s autism on the vaccine. It’s a great read:

    http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/04/11/041111-news-measles-1-5/

    If there’s a higher incidence of autism among Somali children after they immigrate to the U.S., it’s concerning. But I’d want to be looking at a whole lot of other possible reasons for this. By insisting that it’s gotta be the fault of the vaccines, the vaccine scaremongers are doing a disservice to objective research.

  70. #70 RJ
    April 11, 2011

    Is it just me or does Sid (Bob Schecter) look like JB Handley with Down’s Syndrome?

    http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Schecter/577312975#!/people/Robert-Schecter/577312975?sk=friends

    When did we start letting folks from the shire relocate to the USA?

  71. #71 Narad
    April 11, 2011

    Wow, that’s some seriously puerile taste on display.

  72. #72 Rene Najera
    April 11, 2011

    @RJ #70 – Easy there. That Down Syndrome joke is not that funny.

    Personally, I think he looks like Patrick Swayze… Had Patrick Swayze been an anti-vaxer who went to medical school libraries and decided that was enough of an education to self-proclaim himself an authority in the anti-vax circles.

    You can take that as a compliment, Schecter.

  73. #73 RJ
    April 11, 2011

    72

    @RJ #70 – Easy there. That Down Syndrome joke is not that funny.

    You’re right. Soon after I posted it I realized that saying that anybody looks like JB Handley goes too far. My apologies.

  74. #74 Melisssssssssa
    April 11, 2011

    Hmm– in examining my own meds, I find I must be a shill for Big Generic.

  75. #75 lilady
    April 11, 2011

    A Few Observations about Sid Offal’s Blog:

    He opens up the R.I. site this AM, plagiarizes Orac, goes on a rant and puts it out there for comments. (Hint Offal) if two of the three comments slam your viewpoint, that’s bad.
    If the third comment is by you, that’s very bad.

    Offal, if you are posting more frequently (5) on this blog that you plagiarized this AM, that’s just very, very, bad.

  76. #76 Rene Najera
    April 11, 2011

    @RJ #72 – As the kids would say, I LOL’d.

    No one deserves such insult, except maybe Schecter. He thinks it’s funny to make fun of my name for one year straight. It gets old, Schecter.

    Then again, he doesn’t understand the meaning of the word “censorship”, so I guess words derived from French must be beyond him.

    I bet he called his wife his fiance in all his writings before he tricked her into marrying him.

  77. #77 Th1Th2
    April 11, 2011

    Science Mom,

    So many canards, so little time. Which vaccines are IV injected Stephanie? Is that what your “years of research” fetched you?

    Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.

    The influence of the route of immunization on the protection of mice infected intracerebrally with Bordetella pertussis.

    The development of immunity in mice to Bordetella pertussis induced by intracerebral, intravenous,or intraperitoneal vaccination was analysed in terms of the viable bacteria in the brain after intracerebral challenge, the serum antibodies, and protection against the sublethal infection of the lung that follows intranasal inoculation.A vaccine introduced intracerebrally was five to ten times more effective than that given intraperitoneally or intravenously, as measured for each route by the amount of vaccine required to protect half the mice against an intracerebral challenge 14 days later (ImD 50). Intracerebral vaccination induced higher antibody titres than vaccination by the other two routes[…]

    Scared of science, er?

    No dear, it doesn’t quite work like that. You see, susceptible people keep entering the herd, drat that. Herd immunity is an epidemiological theory which explains, quite nicely I might add, how to prevent susceptibility.

    And how exactly do you define the herd, this?http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_populum.php#comments

    Of course there are children who haven’t been exposed to vaccination nor infection…it’s called herd immunity.

    That is a typical scientific wild ass guess that surely fits your name.

  78. #78 Magnetic North
    April 11, 2011

    Hepatitis B vaccine ? Children ? Never heard of it as a matter of routine immunizations that children normally recieve . Travelled the world on merchantmen and never had a hepatitis B immunizztion . required or otherwise , and it’s not even listen in my W.H.O. shot book ..Don’t know if they pose a health risk for the young , just never heard of it .

  79. #79 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 11, 2011

    The development of immunity in mice to Bordetella pertussis induced by intracerebral, intravenous,or intraperitoneal vaccination…

    Please note the all-important word “mice”. Maybe you could tell us what vaccines are given to humans intracerebrally or intraperitoneally.

    Scared of science, er?

    My God, are you dumb.

  80. #80 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Rene

    He thinks it’s funny to make fun of my name for one year straight. It gets old, Schecter

    I think that was just one time, after your provocation. Either way, I’m willing to bury the hatchet it you are.

  81. #81 lilady
    April 11, 2011

    Thingy: What vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream? Please provide citations.

  82. #82 Rene Najera
    April 11, 2011

    Nope, Mr. Schecter, you’ve done it on numerous occasions. You keep referring to me in the female gender and then justifying it by writing that my name is Rene, so I must be a woman. Or you write that you’re confused and apologize. You keep writing “she” when referring to me. “Chick” when referring to me in your blog. So, no, Schecter, not just one time, and for about a year now.

    Then again, maybe your moniker is famous enough now that others are doing the trolling for you.

    As anti-vaccine as you are, there is no burying the hatchet. Your goal is clearly defined by your actions and your words, and I and others will not rest until you stop.

  83. #83 Magnetic North
    April 11, 2011

    p.s. what is “herd immunity ” , sounds allright with animals-same species -same locale , but a bit counter-intuitive with humans . Can some one explain that one ?
    At any rate I bel;ieve the anti-immunization crowd arew misinformed and misled . Hadn’t the British researchers who claimed there was a connection between normal childhood immunizations and autism , been proven incorrect ? Even fraudulent ?

  84. #84 LW
    April 11, 2011

    “A vaccine introduced intracerebrally was five to ten times more effective than that given intraperitoneally or intravenously…”

    I’m relatively certain there are no vaccines routinely given to children intracerebrally, even if they are more effective. Likewise, I’m relatively certain there are no vaccines given intraperitoneally. (Note to trolls: I’m deliberately understating — *of course* vaccines aren’t injected in children’s heads or body cavities!) That being the case, it’s no surprise that the third option here, intravenously, isn’t used in humans either. This was an experiment on *mice* and doesn’t reflect pediatric practice.

  85. #85 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Magnetic North, hepatitis b is not as dire for adults as it is for young children. Those who get it young tend to get the chronic form of the disease. Read more here.

  86. #86 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Rene, I think you are mistaken. For example today’s chick comment was in reference to your saying skepCHICK and not Orac was “spearheading” these efforts. (skepchick = chick). Give me one other reference and I’ll concede the point. And I’m not anti-vaccine. I’m anti-compulsory vaccine.

  87. #87 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.

    Citation required.

    Magnetic North, here is a video on herd immunity.

  88. #88 CG
    April 11, 2011

    Thingy is exhibiting the standard level of dishonest/idiocy.

    No human vaccine is given IV.

  89. #89 Narad
    April 11, 2011

    I’m anti-compulsory vaccine.

    Well, given that the U.S. has no compulsory vaccines, what are you bitching about? A novel sense of “compulsory,” perhaps? “Mandatory”? “Too strongly recommended”?

  90. #90 Rene Najera
    April 11, 2011

    No, Robert, you ARE anti-vaccine. Your word games don’t work. Your rants clearly demonstrate that you dream of a world in which the public health system collapses under the guise of freedom of choice, safe vaccines, and informed consent.

    You know very damn well that there is nothing in the known universe that is 100% safe, but less than 100% safe equals 100% evil to you.

    You know that no one in the United States is being forced to be vaccinated. The vaccine requirements for schools are for the safety of us all. If someone doesn’t want to vaccinate, then we have the right to keep them away from places of mass gatherings. But you write about forced vaccinations, police states, and vaccine cults.

    And you know that we are all given vaccine information sheets when we get our shots, clearly outlining the risks and benefits, but that’s not enough to you and your friends. You want a list of ingredients, and you want to call those ingredients by names that you know will scare people away. Never do you mention the concentrations or other natural sources of those ingredients. (Formaldehyde is made by the liver under certain circumstances. Squalene is in many hand creams.)

    No, Robert, we’re not going to play that game. You know you are an anti-vaxer. I’m an Epidemiologist. We’re are not the same.

  91. #91 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Narad

    Well, given that the U.S. has no compulsory vaccines

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
    Schooling is compulsory for all children in the United States, but the age range for which school attendance is required varies from state to state

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497722/pdf/16134564.pdf
    Laws requiring children to be vaccinated before school entry have helped the United States achieve high overall vaccination rates.

    So we have compulsory schools and compulsory vaccination to attend those compulsory schools yet no compulsory vaccination.

    And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_in_the_United_States

  92. #92 Th1Th2
    April 11, 2011

    lilady,

    Thingy: What vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream? Please provide citations.

    For beginners:

    HOW ARE VACCINES ADMINISTERED?

    Vaccines have been traditionally administered through injection. In some cases, the vaccine is injected just below the skin (subcutaneously), and, in other cases, it is injected into the muscle. Both methods allow for the antigen or antigens in the vaccine to diffuse into the bloodstream more slowly allowing a continuous activation of the immune system over several days.

    Let me guess, your next question would be that vaccines are not injected directly into the regional lymph nodes and spleen.

    You’re a nurse right? What a shame.

  93. #93 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Th1Th2, you said “You said “Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn’t dare.”

    Injecting in the muscle and just below the skin is not intravenous. Diffusing slowly into the bloodstream from the muscle or from just below the skin is not intravenous.

    Now a cite for your claim of “Intravenous pertussis vaccine.”

    Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.

  94. #94 Jen
    April 11, 2011

    Go Stephanie! Did you hear about the poor kid in Australia who was inadvertently vaccinated with the Gardasil vaccine and now has leukemia? Gross. Oh, but it could be a coincidence I hear you crying. Ya, and monkeys might fly out of my butt, too.

  95. #95 Valesa
    April 11, 2011

    Thank you for posting this. I immediately sent an e-mail to make sure this helpful ad is run.

    I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines, and on the advice of my pediatrician, nurse practitioner, and chiropractor have not vaccinated my children. They are much healthier than many of their vaccinated friends.

    I feel it’s important for people to be aware of the possible dangers before they subject their children (or themselves) to medical treatments of any kind.

  96. #96 Father
    April 11, 2011

    Thanks for the heads-up, Orac. When my son was diagnosed with autism, it was a wake-up call for me – anti-vaccine propaganda stopped being something I could ignore as relatively unimportant nonsense. I’ll sign the petition tonight.

  97. #97 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @Narad

    Compulsory school + compulsory vaccination to go to school = compulsory vaccination

    @Rene
    I don’t want a list of ingredients. I don’t want safer vaccines (I think that under the current system they’re as safe as they’re likely to get)And I don’t expect 100% safety. As I’ve said before I just don’t see the risk reward favoring vaccines. But as to those who see it differently, I encourage them to vaccinate. Regardless, it seems were irreconcilably divided on this issue.

  98. #98 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Valesa:

    I feel it’s important for people to be aware of the possible dangers before they subject their children (or themselves) to medical treatments of any kind.

    Pertussis killed ten babies in California last year. Knowing this, along with the eight kids being hospitalized in Minneapolis with measles last month: Could you please tell us your evidence that the risks of the vaccines far outweigh that of the diseases?

    Please give the cites from the PubMed index the research that shows the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Also give the cites showing that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Thank you.

    Jen, lots of kids got leukemia before there were vaccines (read Emperor of All Maladies, it starts off with attempts to cure leukemia). There is no evidence that the vaccine the child got accidentally is associated with leukemia.

  99. #99 Th1Th2
    April 11, 2011

    CG,

    Thingy is exhibiting the standard level of dishonest/idiocy.

    No human vaccine is given IV.

    Are you sure?

    The intravenous injection of typhoid vaccines is being used in the developed typhoid fever (E. Fraenkel, 1876; Gay and Chickering, 1916; Hektoen, 1916) and especially against rheumatic fever. It often induces a crisis and prompt recovery. The action is probably not due to specific antibodies, for similar effects are produced by other vaccines, albumoses, etc. (J.L. Miller and Lusk, 1916; Jobling, 1917). It is apparently a result of the fever.

    Use in Rheumatic Fever. – The intravenous injection of the typhoid vaccine is followed, after one-half to one hour, by a chill, lasting 15 to 30 minutes, with headache and nausea, fast pulse, cyanosis. This is followed by sweating and relief of the joint pains. The temperature reaches its maximum in 3 to 4 hours, and returns to normal withoin 48 hours after injection. The leucocytes show a transient fall, then a marked rise, with its maimum 6 hours after injection. The blood pressure rises during the chill, then falls for 3 or 4 hours. The urine shows no special changes.

  100. #100 Broken Link
    April 11, 2011

    The call to sign the petition has been picked up by Wired magazine. Link on my ‘nym. With this extra publicity, they are up to 1500 signatures.

  101. #101 Jen
    April 11, 2011

    Mephistopholes, you are so full of crap even saying, per post 27, that “no one here ever said there couldn’t be serious side effects with vaccines.” You “science/research people” dance all around it and use stupid terms like “autistic like symptoms” and encephalopathy and pretend that those really don’t equate to vaccine injuries. Why don’t YOU make a list of all possible problems that could happen as a possible consequence of being given a vaccine ( and try to think of some real life scenarios- like being given the wrong vaccine -like the poor baby given Gardasil instead of dpt, low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc., kids with immune problems being given too many vaccines at once, sick kids being given vaccines, nurses giving someone a vaccine in a multi-dose vial and not shaking it up enough, not refrigerating vaccines that need to be. Thanks in advance ; )

  102. #102 Jen
    April 11, 2011

    P.S. and that list of potential vaccine problems is just looking at other variables, assuming that all the actual ingredients in a vaccine are safe (which no study has demonstrated). So fine, call in about the ad but trust me, when you guys see the range of problems with the kids these days (either your own or your grandkids) you will realize what a bunch dick heads you have been. And if you don’t have kids, you don’t even get a say.

  103. #103 Chris
    April 11, 2011

    Jen:

    ( and try to think of some real life scenarios- like being given the wrong vaccine -like the poor baby given Gardasil instead of dpt, low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc., kids with immune problems being given too many vaccines at once, sick kids being given vaccines, nurses giving someone a vaccine in a multi-dose vial and not shaking it up enough, not refrigerating vaccines that need to be.

    Please show those are common problems in Canada, USA, Australia, Japan and Europe. I mean more than once.

    Also, what pediatric vaccines are still commonly given that are in multi-dose vials in Canada, USA and Europe? Provide cites. Thank you.

  104. #104 LW
    April 11, 2011

    Jen thinks “encephalopathy” is a stupid term and that using it to describe a condition is denying an injury?

  105. #105 Rene Najera
    April 11, 2011

    Absolutely, Robert.

  106. #106 Enkidu
    April 11, 2011

    Jen spouted that “low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc” was bad. In what universe??? Do you really want preemies and their crappy lungs getting pertussis?

    My low birth-weight (2 lb, 1 oz) 27 weeker was given her HepB at 2 months (when she was 5 lbs), and two days later the normal 2 month vaxes as recommended by the CDC. Besides the delay for her birth HepB vax she was completely vaxed on-schedule BECAUSE she was a preemie; we were most worried about her lungs, as some VPDs would wreck havoc with them if she got sick. She also got anti-RSV antibody shots for two winters because she was high-risk.

    She never got a VPD, nor RSV. Because she was vaccinated? IDK but that’s the “problem” with vaccines, isn’t it? When they work, nothing happens that we can see.

  107. #107 dedicated lurker
    April 11, 2011

    Sid, public school is not compulsory. School itself is. You may choose public, private, or parochial schooling, or you can home school. Do all private schools require you to vaccinate? How about the parochial ones? Is there a mandatory vaccine list for home schoolers?

  108. #108 Sid Offit
    April 11, 2011

    @D Lurker

    States have mandatory vaccine requirements for daycare – which are private – regular private schools and homeschooling. For example

    Under a new law that takes effect in 2011, California middle and high school students must be vaccinated against pertussis (whooping cough). Beginning July 1, 2011, all students entering 7th through 12th grades in both public and private schools will be required to show proof of a “Tdap*” booster shot before starting school. This requirement applies to all public and private schools. The new requirement was signed into law earlier this year by Governor Schwarzenegger.

    or in Virginia

    Vaccinations/Immunizations
    Before enrolling your child in school, you will need to provide proof of immunization. Homeschooled students are subject to the same laws concerning vaccinations as public and private school students (§22.1-271.4). Public and private schools require children entering school to show proof of immunization against various communicable diseases. Religious or medical exemptions may apply in certain cases (§32.1-46).

    No links since they’re being held up. Just google the text

  109. #109 novalox
    April 11, 2011

    Signed the petition.

  110. #110 augustine
    April 12, 2011

    Enkidu

    She never got a VPD, nor RSV. Because she was vaccinated? IDK but that’s the “problem” with vaccines, isn’t it? When they work, nothing happens that we can see.

    To pair your anecdote. My 2 lbs. 9oz. preemie never received ANY vaccine. Even with a RSV “scare” in the NICU. SHE was the scare because SHE had a “runny nose”.

    Almost 4 yo now. No medication EVER. Even after being at the M.D. for an ear infection and a 105.3 degree temperature. M.D says, after learning we don’t vaccinate, “well you don’t have to give her the antibiotics (which were already prescribed and unecessary) but at least give her Tylenol. She recovered completely with non-“science” based medicine care.

    “Thanks, doc. We’ll call you when we need you again.”

  111. #111 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    Thingy: I’m still waiting for “intravenous administration of pertussis” citation. Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward. Done correctly, the PPD raises a small wheal beneath the skin. It is not a vaccine; it is called the Mantoux test and done to screen people for exposure to the tuberculosis bacterium. The patient returns to the doctor or nurse for a reading of the size of induration, if any, within 72 hours. Doctors and nurses also test people for allergies, using the intradermal route, to inject a small amount of an antigen, to test for reactions.

    Thingy, we know you have “a thing” about antigens and antibodies…being the same thing…in your mind…but they aren’t.

    Give it up Thingy, all vaccines are injected using the subcutaneous or intramuscular route.

  112. #112 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    @ Enkiku: Thanks for sharing your experiences with modern medicine; we are delighted that your daughter is so healthy.

    Please ignore the nasty troll.

  113. #113 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    lilady,

    Intradermal means beneath the skin[…]

    Oh shoot. I wonder how you passed A&P.
    Intradermal means within or between the layers of the skin. And what lies beneath the skin are the subcutaneous tissue and the muscles.

  114. #114 augustine
    April 12, 2011

    @ Enkiku: Thanks for sharing your experiences with modern medicine; we are delighted that your daughter is so healthy.
    Please ignore the nasty troll.

    Please ignore the nurse. She just has a bachelors degree in nursing and biased experience as a local health department worker. She’s not a NICU nurse.

    You have the same weakness as Chris, Lilady.

  115. #115 dedicated lurker
    April 12, 2011

    Intradermal means within or between the layers of the skin. And what lies beneath the skin are the subcutaneous tissue and the muscles.

    And neither of those are intravenous.

  116. #116 novalox
    April 12, 2011

    @augie

    Hey hypocrite, you still haven’t answered the question on your education, haven’t you?

  117. #117 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Chris,

    Injecting in the muscle and just below the skin is not intravenous.

    It’s intramuscular and the vaccine contents are carried into the bloodstream.

    Diffusing slowly into the bloodstream from the muscle or from just below the skin is not intravenous.

    Again, it is intramuscular. You want a faster route into the bloodstream than IM or SC then go for the IV. Nobody is stopping you however the package inserts do not recommend IV for humane reason (hint: can be a lethal injection). Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid. You deny this and you are nothing but an uneducated person who always pretends to know science.

  118. #118 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    Thingy in the nursing/medical profession “intradermal” injections are only used as I outlined above; but you wouldn’t know that, having received all your education from Google U.

    Chris and I are still waiting (for hours), for the specific names now, of the vaccines that are given intravenously.

    Augie, Where did YOU go to School? Where are you gainfully employed? No doubt, still on the dole, living in mommy’s basement, caring for “imaginary” children.

  119. #119 Th1th2
    April 12, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    And neither of those are intravenous.

    You can also add the different blood vessels (capillaries, arteries, veins) which are found beneath the skin. Do you have any problem with that?

  120. #120 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    @ Dedicated Lurker: Thingy might add sub-lingual, skin patches, creams and suppositories, which eventually get into the bloodstream…but still cannot provide us with the specific names of the vaccines which are injected intravenously. I wonder what package inserts he is referring to that specifically “do not recommend IV for humane reasons”?

  121. #121 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    lilady,

    Thingy in the nursing/medical profession “intradermal” injections are only used as I outlined above; but you wouldn’t know that, having received all your education from Google U.

    Anybody with a brainstem knows that PPD is injected within or between the layers of the skin and NOT beneath the skin as you have outlined above. You are very dangerous old nurse both in theories and more so in practice.

    I don’t mind really if you admitted your mistake.

  122. #122 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    Thingy “beneath the skin” to describe intra-dermal testing using antigens is proper lingo in the medical and nursing professions; again you are getting all your lessons from Google U. How many intra-dermal injections have you given? For that matter how many IM or SC injections have you given? I don’t think you have ever given any injections, with your limited education and lack of credentialing/licensing in the medical field. You cannot even tell us which specific vaccines are given “intravenously” or which vaccine inserts specifically don’t “recommend IV for humane reasons.” (hint: none of the vaccine inserts recommend other routes, such as sub-lingual or via rectum, either)

    When you take some courses in immunology, epidemiology and other (non survey type) courses that qualify you to sit for medical or nursing boards and pass the boards, come back here. Otherwise keep plugging away on your web browser.

  123. #123 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2011

    other routes, such as sub-lingual or via rectum

    “Suppository” does not mean “the room where I dream stuff up”.

  124. #124 Michael Ralston
    April 12, 2011

    Bagel boy’s boss needs to tell him to go home. If he’s noticibly infectious and still working that would actually be a legitimate spere into which the government could enter

    … but paying for the treatment of said cough is not legitimate, right, Sid?

    So the government has the power to tell a sick man “You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care” and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man’s food and medical care?

    Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?

    Is that REALLY what you think?

  125. #125 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2011

    Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward.

    I was under the impression that rabies shots are administered intradermally these days (presumably to present the antigen to the langerhans cells — I haven’t looked it up). Certainly an advance on the old intraperitoneal form of rabies shots.

    In that connection, I have noticed that the homeopaths and naturopaths are not offering a ‘natural’ alternative to rabies injections, even though there are homeopathic substitutes for every other form of immunisation, and despite the purported efficacy of naturopathy. Why is this?

    I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines

    Let me guess. A carton of the stuff fell on their heads from a shelf.

    Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.

    You people are all politically-sound and inclusive and all so you say “So-and-so is redefining words”. I find it more parsimonious to leave the words with their consensus meanings and say “So-and-so is lying”.

  126. #126 ahmet
    April 12, 2011

    All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated. We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can’t afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS

  127. #127 Question Everything
    April 12, 2011

    Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies. This is a parent’s right!

    No doctor, government, vaccine/drug pusher, anti-vaccinationist can govern or dictate this issue & enforce their views on every parent or else we might as well be living in a tyrannical dictatorship!

    If a person were to say that he/she knew better or that his/her views are right, then that may be so only in his/her own opinion & is definitely not argument enough to allow for him/her to infringe action on to a parent. And no amount of college/university degrees (medical or otherwise) will convince a parent to do something that they do not wish to do…

    The right way forward however could be to present all the facts & leave parents to make their choices…

    This is undebateably the perogative of a free man/woman because as intelligent beings, we are all capable of making informed decisions & we are all allowed our opinions.

    As a parent, I know that I have a choice & no one, no matter which side of the fence they play dirty from, will stop me from exercising it on myself or my own, period!!!

  128. #128 Jud
    April 12, 2011

    augustine writes:

    No medication EVER. Even after being at the M.D. for an ear infection and a 105.3 degree temperature.

    I sincerely hope you are making up this episode. Refusing to consider administering antibiotics to stop an infection that had the potential to result in permanent hearing loss is nothing to be proud of. Thank goodness (if what you say is true) there apparently was no permanent damage. Though if it turns out at some point in the future that your child did suffer hearing loss, I’m sure you’ll proudly tell her (or write it down for her if she can’t hear you) that you didn’t submit to those doctors who know nothing.

    By the way, you don’t say whether you administered the Tylenol to bring down her 105.3 fever. Did you, or did it violate your principles to use medication produced by Big Pharma to lower a fever that had the potential to spike and cause seizures or brain damage?

  129. #129 lilady
    April 12, 2011

    HRIG (Rabies Immuno-globulin) is administered surrounding a wound inflicted by a known rabid animal or an animal that is not captured and tested. It is not a vaccine. Rabies vaccine is administered in a series of 5 IM shots, post exposure to a known rabid animal or an animal with unknown rabies status. Rabies vaccine is always given IM in the deltoid muscle in children and adults and IM in the anterio-lateral muscle of the thigh of infants with suspected or known rabies exposure.

    Thingy posted a few weeks ago and showed his confusion about antigen being different than antibody, IV versus IM infusions, HRIG being different than Human Rabies Vaccine and Tetanus IG being different than Tetanus Vaccine. He also advanced his “theories” about post-exposure prophylaxis. We wasted posting time on him then and his basic lack of knowledge about the diseases, ignorance of the basics of bacteriology and general idiocy.

    @ Herr Doktor Bimler: Actually Thingy dreams things in his minimally functioning brain; his ass is where he pulls his factoids from

  130. #130 triskelethecat
    April 12, 2011

    OMG! I laughed out loud at work and now people want to know what is so funny. @99, TH1 posted about IV typhoid vaccine from 1917????? The intravenous injection of typhoid vaccines is being used in the developed typhoid fever (E. Fraenkel, 1876; Gay and Chickering, 1916; Hektoen, 1916) and especially against rheumatic fever. It often induces a crisis and prompt recovery. The action is probably not due to specific antibodies, for similar effects are produced by other vaccines, albumoses, etc. (J.L. Miller and Lusk, 1916; Jobling, 1917). It is apparently a result of the fever.

    I can’t stop laughing. Ummm…Thing…medicine has advanced a little bit in the 90+ years since then.

    I don’t think little augie has a “nearly 4″ year old child. His imaginary child story is amusing but not really very believable to THIS nurse who has NICU and nursery experience. But, little augie never responded to my previous post any way calling him a liar and he hasn’t proved me wrong yet. So, I don’t believe anything he posts anymore anyway.

  131. #131 Beamup
    April 12, 2011

    All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated.

    When the definition of safer is “never has any complications in anyone ever, AND cures autism with 100% efficacy” that IS demanding that they be eliminated.

    We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can’t afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS

    The OAP was an exceptional case, purely due to the fact that the claimants were allowed to present unsubstantiated speculation, and given many years to come up with MORE garbage (at their own request). Normal cases – you know, the ones that aren’t just made up for the benefit of the lawyers and supposed “experts” with minimal (or no) qualifications – are much faster. So this is another outright lie.

    Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies. This is a parent’s right!

    Not the point. The point is antivax idiots LYING to parents in ways that are all to likely to KILL the babies in question for NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER!

    And no amount of college/university degrees (medical or otherwise) will convince a parent to do something that they do not wish to do…

    The fact that the overwhelming mountain of evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccination is opposed by nothing but lies, fraud, and coincidence, on the other hand, should. And DOES convince all parents who are genuinely informed (as opposed to those who are lied to, deceived, and defrauded by the antivax morons).

    The right way forward however could be to present all the facts & leave parents to make their choices…

    And yet, you support lying to the parents instead of presenting facts. Why is that?

  132. #132 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Golly, Jen, I didn’t think I’d said anything all that offensive. One can easily get a list of known possible side effects from the vaccine manufacturers themselves. The one “side effect” that’s routinely disputed in this forum is autism, for which there is still insufficient evidence.

    If you can point to the posts from Orac or people commenting on the blog that “vaccines never cause any harm whatsoever”, I’ll modify my statement. Indeed, I’ll do it now – there have been a number of posts that specifically say that there are known side effects of some vaccines.

    I’m still curious (really, it wasn’t sarcastic) about what test is not being done that would prevent vaccine-related injury.

  133. #133 dedicated lurker
    April 12, 2011

    I wonder why auggie doesn’t trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?

  134. #134 Kristen
    April 12, 2011

    DL,
    That was precisely my thought. If Auggie had a 2lb 9oz preemie that child would never have survived without some serious intervention. Why is giving Tylenol to your child absolutely unthinkable but leaving that child in the care of nurses and doctors in the NICU in an artificial incubator with oxygen, tube feedings, steroids to help lung function (going from lay knowledge, correct me if anything is inaccurate) and more okay?

    When I gave my children Acetaminophen for an ear infection it was because they were in screaming pain and I wanted to make them comfortable. It is a stronger parent then me who is willing to watch their child be in that much pain when there is something (nearly side-effect free) to make them feel so much better.

    Augustine is a lier, I wouldn’t believe a single thing he says. I seriously doubt he has a four-year-old who was born premature, and if he doesn’t it is pretty sick that he pretends he does.

  135. #135 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    You can also add the different blood vessels (capillaries, arteries, veins) which are found beneath the skin. Do you have any problem with that?

    You were told not to redefine words. You still need to tell us what vaccines are injected into veins (which is what intravenous means), especially evidence of “intravenous administration of pertussis.” Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

    Try to pretend you live on Earth, and speak/write standard English (American or UK).

  136. #136 Jud
    April 12, 2011

    Kristen writes:

    It is an unfeeling bully stronger parent than me who is willing to watch their child be in that much pain when there is something (nearly side-effect free) to make them feel so much better.

  137. #137 Enkidu
    April 12, 2011

    “I wonder why auggie doesn’t trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?”

    Dedicated Lurker, I was thinking the exact same thing! My daughter was a pretty healthy two-pounder, but still she needed antibiotics, a spinal tap, surfactant, caffeine, two blood transfusions, and numerous x-rays. Not to mention vent, cpap, and nasal cannula to help her breathe. Kids her gestation often need a lot more, and have to deal with brain bleeds, holes in their hearts, and eye surgery. How did auggie deal with these interventions?

    And 105 degree fever? I hope to hell he gave that kid something to bring that thing down. I can’t imagine the pain/ misery level of a fever that high.

  138. #138 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Chris,

    Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

    Ever? You and lilady are an embarrassment to science community. So where do vaccine ingredients and antigens go after being deposited into the muscles? Do you still have the whole 0.5ml of Flu shot into your muscle? Did they evaporate into air and magically disappeared? How did vaccines antigens able to migrate and reach the extrafollicular areas of the spleen and lymph nodes if they were in sutu and never left the muscle?This is the time you provide us a real science based evidence rather than uttering nonsense.

  139. #139 dedicated lurker
    April 12, 2011

    So, Th, when you swallow a pill, after it heads into the stomach, gets digested, moves to the small intestine, and gets absorbed into the blood stream, is that considered intravenous? After all, it gets into the blood too.

  140. #140 Beamup
    April 12, 2011

    In the Thing’s world, it probably is. After all, he considers himself free to redefine words to suit his argument. I can see it now…

    Prosecutor: The defendant murdered the victim in cold blood, in front of fifty witnesses!
    Th1Th2: “Murder” means “to hang garlands on,” and I never did that, so I am innocent!

  141. #141 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    Any relation to Homulus?

    That means nothing to me.

    If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can’t afford to get treated, there’s no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare

    Bagel boy’s boss needs to tell him to go home. If he’s noticibly infectious and still working that would actually be a legitimate spere into which the government could enter

    It’s good to know that no-one ever spread a disease before they were “noticably infectious”. That must make the CDC’s job trivially easy.

    You encounter many people throughout the day, any number of which could be carrying a horrible infections disease. Perhaps they’ve just just been sent home from work for sneezing on a customer’s food; perhaps someone in your office is shedding viruses, but hasn’t started showing symptoms yet.

    The point is that it is in your interest to ensure that the people around you are as healthy as possible. Why would you *not* want want to spend money towards that goal?

  142. #142 Vicki
    April 12, 2011

    According to Question Everything (@127)

    Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies.

    In other words, parenting is impossible, and if anything whatsoever goes wrong, you can blame the parents mother. Because nobody can usefully research everything that directly affects their babies, especially given that they have other important responsibilities, like feeding the babies, and that parents are human and need to sleep.

    Or did you in fact research and question the chemicals in the air your children breathe? The materials in all the clothes they wear (including any dyes), the blankets they sleep under, and the breastmilk or formula they drink? Did you “research and question” the advice on how to lay them down for a nap? How thoroughly is a parent expected to research the water their children are bathed in, the materials of the diapers, the amount of sunlight they get, and the effects of ambient noise?

    Yes, parents can and do study many things, and that’s a good thing. But “must” and “everything” are an impossible standard. Or are vaccines somehow different from radiation damage (a.k.a. the tradeoff betwee sunburn and vitamin D), air pollution, and so on?

  143. #143 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    What do I have to refute if oral drugs are being absorbed within the veins of the GI tract ? That’s a no-brainer.

  144. #144 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2 – did I just see you argue that:
    – all intramuscular injections are really intravenous.
    – all oral medicine is really intravenous.
    – all inhaled medicines are really intravenous.
    – all trans-dermal patches are really intravenous.
    – all topical medicines are really intravenous.

    That, in short, by your definition of intravenous anything that might enter the bloodstream is really intravenous?

  145. #145 Gray Falcon
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2, I have a bit of advice, something I learned from painful experience. You don’t always have to be right. After you claimed that vaccines are delivered intravenously and you were shown to be wrong, the proper response was to apologize and correct your errors, not attempt to redefine “intravenous”.

  146. #146 triskelethecat
    April 12, 2011

    My only request – please, please, please do NOT let Thing become a nurse, doctor or anyone who does patient care. The death toll would be horrendous.

  147. #147 Narad
    April 12, 2011

    And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?

    OK, I wasn’t aware of the Virginia requirement. Leaving aside the seemingly trivial religious exemption, what’s the penalty, which is to say, the compulsion?

  148. #148 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Beamup,

    In the Thing’s world, it probably is. After all, he considers himself free to redefine words to suit his argument. I can see it now…
    Prosecutor: The defendant murdered the victim in cold blood, in front of fifty witnesses!
    Th1Th2: “Murder” means “to hang garlands on,” and I never did that, so I am innocent!

    Since you never injected yourself with Tequila therefore you can tell the police officer you’re not driving under the influence and you’re innocent eh?

  149. #149 Roadstergal
    April 12, 2011

    I didn’t know I ate intravenously. You learn something new every day. *IV burp*

  150. #150 Beamup
    April 12, 2011

    Also amusing to see the Thing spout garbage entirely unrelated, in any way whatsoever, to the post he’s purportedly responding to.

    Me: 1+1=2. 1+1!=giraffe
    Th1Th2: Blueberry factions bleek rats woosingly.

  151. #151 Gray Falcon
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Since you never injected yourself with Tequila therefore you can tell the police officer you’re not driving under the influence and you’re innocent eh?

    Only if intoxicated was defined as “having had alcohol injected directly into the bloodstream”. Since it isn’t, no.

    The body reacts very differently to the same substance if injected into muscles or the bloodstream, so the distinction is not trivial.

  152. #152 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    O’Brien,

    Th1Th2 – did I just see you argue that:
    – all intramuscular injections are really intravenous.
    – all oral medicine is really intravenous.
    – all inhaled medicines are really intravenous.
    – all trans-dermal patches are really intravenous.
    – all topical medicines are really intravenous.
    That, in short, by your definition of intravenous anything that might enter the bloodstream is really intravenous?

    If you want to argue with me then refute the fact that the pertussis vaccine in #77 and the typhoid vaccine in #99 were given intravenously and were absorbed within the veins. Put up or shut up.

  153. #153 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    The body reacts very differently to the same substance if injected into muscles or the bloodstream, so the distinction is not trivial.

    Of course, Thingy is well aware of this. S/he earlier stated that (for some, as-yet unspecified drug, the manufacturors

    …do not recommend IV for humane reason (hint: can be a lethal injection).

    Of course, she used this as proof that those drugs were being used IV, so coherence doesn’t seen be be hir strong point…

  154. #154 LW
    April 12, 2011

    The pertussis vaccine in 77 was given intravenously to *mice* experimentally. On my planet, mice are not human beings. The typhoid treatment (I’m not sure it was really being used as a vaccine since it was given to people who already had typhoid)in 99 was given intravenously to people prior to 1920. On my planet, it is 2011, medicine has changed a lot in 90 years, and Americans are not routinely vaccinated against typhoid.

  155. #155 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 12, 2011

    If you want to argue with me then refute the fact that the pertussis vaccine in #77 and the typhoid vaccine in #99 were given intravenously and were absorbed within the veins. Put up or shut up.

    Refuted by many commenters.
    #77 – “mice” – remember? What about those vaccines that were injected into the brain?
    #99 – a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever. This is now treated with penicillin.
    Neither of these have anything to do with vaccination to prevent disease.

    You really are dumb.

  156. #156 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Dawn (triskelethecat):

    My only request – please, please, please do NOT let Thing become a nurse, doctor or anyone who does patient care.

    Or become a parent. Though from the sMothering forum Narad linked to, she may actually have very young child perhaps under a year old. In that case I fear for that child.

    Even if the child manages to survive long enough to start school, I wonder how well he/she will do with a parent who redefines words to suit her purposes. Heaven forbid that a child question such a parent, or even as a toddler wanders off the sidewalk to the dirt.

    That is where such obstinate stubbornness and being so close minded can be absolutely frightening.

  157. #157 Sid Offit
    April 12, 2011

    @Mike Ralston

    So the government has the power to tell a sick man “You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care” and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man’s food and medical care?

    There’s a difference between power and the moral authority to do something. Seems the state has the “power to do just about anything. Anyway, the government has the right to tell a man not to rob a bank because it violates the rights of others just as it can act to stop one from knowingly acting in a way in which one could expect to transmit an illness and harm others.

    —————
    Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?

    Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

    This sick man should have prepared for a potential illness before becoming ill. But then you’ll say affordable health care is impossible to obtain. The solution is to remove the government from the equation so this person doesn’t have to buy a policy with coverage he really doesn’t need or want.

    It’s wrong for the government to intervene in the health care market in the first place and it’s wrong to take the of resources one person to pay for the care of another

    The moral solution would be to start unwinding the governments role while continuing to provide care for the truly needy.

    And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation

  158. #158 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    bruce,

    Refuted by many commenters.
    #77 – “mice” – remember? What about those vaccines that were injected into the brain?
    #99 – a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever. This is now treated with penicillin.
    Neither of these have anything to do with vaccination to prevent disease.

    I might have missed it. So what you and the rest have refuted so far? That you’re denying vaccines can be given intravenously or are you refuting the fact that vaccine manufacturers do not recommend IV administration?

    You really are dumb.

    Jenner was and so are his followers.

  159. #159 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    When I had a typhoid shot I recall it being intramuscular, not intravenous. According to Wikipedia, this dead vaccine is injected either under the skin or into a muscle. According to http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a607028.html there is also a live oral vaccine. Anything referring to an intravenous treatment would seem to have lost relevance.

  160. #160 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2 – based on a non-exhaustive review of various injected vaccines currently provided (and recalling that I am not a doctor and do not play one on TV), I don’t find any current vaccinations that are recommended to be injected intravenously.

  161. #161 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Mephistopheles O’Brien, Th1Th2 lives in her own special version of Htrae, with her own special dictionary where she gets to define the words. Reality is what she wants it to be, which makes her so very special.

  162. #162 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Chris,

    Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

    Where’s your proof Chris? Show them the evidence that you have accumulated all the injected vaccine doses into your muscle and that they have not gone into the vein whatsoever as you proudly claim.

    You are such an embarrassment.

  163. #163 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don’t see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn’t involve food preparation

    Yeah, this is why we have actual doctors instead of know-nothings on the internet making these diagnoses.

    Have you heard of, for example, tuberculosis? Do you know what the primary early symptom is?

  164. #164 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Chris,
    I know, and I hope you’ll forgive me if I try once more.

    Th1Th2 – In order for something to be an intravenous injection (or to have been administered intravenously), it must satisfy two conditions:
    – a needle must puncture a vein (and note that a capillary is not considered a vein for this purpose); and
    – a substance must be injected through that needle directly into the vein.

    An intramuscular or subcutaneous injection is not intravenous (and vice versa) by definition.

  165. #165 MI Dawn
    April 12, 2011

    Boy, Thingy sure is bringing back memories for me today. IV Alcohol. Haven’t thought about that one in YEARS! It used to be used to stop preterm labor. Not fun – the women usually were very unhappy drunks. But, it would often stop labor for a while.

    Um…Thingy…since EVERYTHING you eat, drink, rub on your skin, etc is eventually absorbed into your circulatory system (not necessarily by the veins, usually venuoles and arterioles, capillaries, etc), what’s your point? Yes, vaccines do eventually enter the circulatory system, in order to stimulate the immune system. Then, like most things, they are processed and excreted. HOWEVER, that does NOT equal intravenous administration.

    Now, be an intelligent person, quit changing the meanings of things (Humpty Dumpty is fiction, you know), and be honest.

  166. #166 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Brien,

    Th1Th2 – based on a non-exhaustive review of various injected vaccines currently provided (and recalling that I am not a doctor and do not play one on TV), I don’t find any current vaccinations that are recommended to be injected intravenously.

    Is there any reason as to why they don’t recommend IV injection?

    So you’re saying vaccine ingredients stay permanently into the muscles and never get absorbed into nearby veins either purposely or inadvertently?

  167. #167 MI Dawn
    April 12, 2011

    Yes, Thingy. There usually IS a reason that medications/vaccines/whatever are given the way they are. The speed of absorption differs in routes. An IV drug is immediately available and the body usually breaks it down in the liver/kidneys/etc quite quickly. IM/oral/topical drugs are absorbed and processed more slowly. Giving a vaccine IV would probably mean the body does not have time to create an immune response before the small amount of usually non-live antigens are broken down and excreted.

    Now, more questions? That one was actually an intelligent question. Good Thing. I’m proud of you.

  168. #168 Dedj
    April 12, 2011

    “Show them the evidence that you have accumulated all the injected vaccine doses into your muscle and that they have not gone into the vein whatsoever as you proudly claim.”

    Chris clearly makes no such claim.

    Stop lying about other people.
    Stop lying about other people to their face.
    Stop lying about definitions.
    Stop pretending you have a clue.
    Stop pretending you are here for any serious purpose.

    No reasonable person would carry on in the way you do unless they have seriously misunderstood the subject, or unless they are here for a malicious purpose.

    You cannot be seen as reasonable or honest. You can only be seen as a malicious liar.

  169. #169 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn’t be 14 trillion dollars in debt

    The entire National Debt is due to healthcare costs? All those foreign wars are free of cost?

    Is that really what you’re saying?

  170. #170 Enkidu
    April 12, 2011

    Regarding the word “intravenous:” Th1Th2 is probably the densest person I have ever seen. O.M.G.

  171. #171 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2,

    I’m sure there is a reason they don’t recommend intravenous injection. There may well be multiple reasons.

    I make no claim as to what happens to a substance once it is injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly.

  172. #172 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    O’ Brien,

    Th1Th2 – In order for something to be an intravenous injection (or to have been administered intravenously), it must satisfy two conditions:
    – a needle must puncture a vein (and note that a capillary is not considered a vein for this purpose); and
    – a substance must be injected through that needle directly into the vein.
    An intramuscular or subcutaneous injection is not intravenous (and vice versa) by definition.

    I know what you mean. In order for vaccine/drug ingredients to ENTER the bloodstream, parenteral injections can be given IM, SC or IV. Now do vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream or stay in sutu in the muscle or subcutaneous tissue?

  173. #173 BraselC5048
    April 12, 2011

    Thingy, I am not a docter at all, and even I know that the word “intravenously” means injected DIRECTLY into a vein. By directly we (as in everyone) means that the end of the needle is in the vein, and the contents move directly from the needle to the vein. If it is injected into musscle tissue, or or anywhere onther then DIRECTLTY INTO THE VEIN, it is NOT considered intravenous. Even if it eventually ends up in the vein, it is NOT intravenously if the END OF THE NEEDLE IS NOT IN THE VEIN. Otherwise, even eating would be considered intravenous.
    By the way, confine your disscussion to within the last 10 years. 90 years ago doesn’t count.

    (apoligies for the all caps, but I don’t know how to use bold text)

  174. #174 Pablo
    April 12, 2011

    I guess I don’t get it. If intramuscular is also IV, then why stop there? Wouldn’t it also be “intracranial” since the vaccines also end up in the brain, too?

    I mean, why not complain about injecting vaccines into the brain? Or the heart? Or lungs? Because that makes as much sense.

  175. #175 Anton P. Nym
    April 12, 2011

    According to Thingy’s definition, the tacos I ate for supper count as intravenous feeding because the contituents didn’t remain solely in my stomach and traces of it entered my bloodstream.

    I thereby demonstrate that the definition he’s using is too broad to be meaningful, and suggest that it should therefor be deprecated.

    — Steve

  176. #176 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    Plus, I’m doing intravenous breathing right now!

  177. #177 Pablo
    April 12, 2011

    “You are such an embarrassment. ”

    Pretty ironic from the poster whose “everything is ultimately IV” claims are destined to become a classic punchline here, so overused that I will get tired of it and eventually cconsider it lame. Until then, however, I will continue to take my jelly beans intraveneously.

    The sad part is that this isn’t even really Thingy’s fight. Research savvy Stephanie was the one who opened the subject and thingy stupidly tried to defend it.

  178. #178 Spencer
    April 12, 2011

    For you folks that don’t currently understand the dangers of vaccines and also the longterm affects caused by them(which is admitted in the inserts), I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way just how dangerous and useless they truly are.

    Take care, and proceed with caution at least.

    Peace

  179. #179 Gray Falcon
    April 12, 2011

    Spencer, if vaccines were in fact, dangerous and useless, what happened to polio? Why aren’t we having epidemics of it anymore?

  180. #180 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Spencer:

    For you folks that don’t currently understand the dangers of vaccines and also the longterm affects caused by them(which is admitted in the inserts),

    The package inserts are “cover your ass” bits written by lawyers. They list something even if it happened once, and perhaps was not actually due to the vaccine.

    Spencer, do tell us using literature available in our local medical school library what actual evidence shows that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella (last month eight kids were hospitalized with measles). Come on. Give us real evidence.

    He continues:

    I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way just how dangerous and useless they truly are.

    Here is some data on the incidence of measles between 1912 to the 1990s. Please tell us why the rate of measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970:
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  181. #181 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2011

    Now do vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream or stay in sutu in the muscle or subcutaneous tissue?

    The 3rd alternative, of course, is “neither” — the antigens and ingredients are metabolised, or taken up by immune-system cells, or otherwise disposed of.
    In the case of pre-exposure intradermal injections for typhoid and rabies, the antigens apparently drain into the lymphatic system where they encounter CD4 cells and T-cells and do their job (I had to look this up).

    If only I was sure that the question showed a genuine desire to be informed.

  182. #182 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    MI Dawn,

    Giving a vaccine IV would probably mean the body does not have time to create an immune response before the small amount of usually non-live antigens are broken down and excreted.

    Probably? Oh shoot. It’s called anaphylaxis, a type of immune reaction that has an acute onset which can lead to shock and death.

  183. #183 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    Probably? Oh shoot. It’s called anaphylaxis, a type of immune reaction that has an acute onset which can lead to shock and death.

    Which would be why we don’t do that. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

  184. #184 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    O’Brien,

    I make no claim as to what happens to a substance once it is injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly.

    If you ask Chris, she’ll tell you these injected substances stay as is.

    Seriously, you don’t wanna make a claim because you don’t wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.

    There’s no magic here. Everything is (basic) science.

  185. #185 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    If you ask Chris, she’ll tell you these injected substances stay as is.

    Seriously, you don’t wanna make a claim because you don’t wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.

    No, no-one’s claiming that. Chris (along with everyone who isn’t you) is claiming that just because it eventually gets to the bloodstream doesn’t qualify it for the label “intravenous”.

  186. #186 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Dedj,

    Chris clearly makes no such claim.

    Oh yeah? Below is what appears to be Chris’ infamous claim.

    Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

    I know she is so humiliated to even recognize her own claim (self-rejection) that she won’t even bother discussing it. Too bad.

  187. #187 Kristen
    April 12, 2011

    I have been sitting here catching up on the last few hours of this thread and my jaw keeps dropping involuntarily. Holy crap! I’ve never read anything so stupid that wasn’t a poe or parody.

    I’m going to go get some I.V. fresh air and try to rid myself of my sudden feelings of shame for being the same species as a person this willfully imbecilic.

  188. #188 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    MI Dawn,

    Um…Thingy…since EVERYTHING you eat, drink, rub on your skin, etc is eventually absorbed into your circulatory system (not necessarily by the veins, usually venuoles and arterioles, capillaries, etc), what’s your point? Yes, vaccines do eventually enter the circulatory system, in order to stimulate the immune system. Then, like most things, they are processed and excreted. HOWEVER, that does NOT equal intravenous administration.

    So you deny intravenous vaccinations in #77 and #99 to have ever happened?

  189. #189 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Yes, I said “Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.”

    Look at the tense, the word is “is”, which is present tense. That means at the moment. That means at the moment the needle is being used and the syringe is being pressed. I did not use the future version of “will not go into the vein.”

    At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form). At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines “intravenous”, it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine.

    Stop torturing the English language.

    It occurs to me that a tour through Th1Th2’s mind would be like going on a carnival fun house ride.

  190. #190 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Pablo,

    I guess I don’t get it. If intramuscular is also IV, then why stop there? Wouldn’t it also be “intracranial” since the vaccines also end up in the brain, too?
    I mean, why not complain about injecting vaccines into the brain? Or the heart? Or lungs? Because that makes as much sense.

    They did intracerebral pertussis vaccination. Check #77.

  191. #191 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    So you deny intravenous vaccinations in #77 and #99 to have ever happened?

    No, we are denying that they have nothing to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011. But you have been told that more than once.

    Again, stop torturing English. While it may work on Htrae, you are looking like an complete idiot here on Earth.

  192. #192 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 12, 2011

    They did intracerebral pertussis vaccination. Check #77

    “mice” – remember?

    Oh hell, you’re beyond hope.

  193. #193 Antaeus Feldspar
    April 12, 2011

    Did you hear about the poor kid in Australia who was inadvertently vaccinated with the Gardasil vaccine and now has leukemia? Gross. Oh, but it could be a coincidence I hear you crying. Ya, and monkeys might fly out of my butt, too.

    Goofus presents a fascinating opportunity to examine the anti-logical world of an anti-vaxxer’s mind. Goofus apparently thinks that we should take as a given that it is not, could not be coincidence for a child given a Gardasil vaccine to develop acute myeloid leukemia nearly two years later. Because it could not be coincidence, Goofus argues, it must therefore be cause-and-effect.

    But let’s look at what Goofus’ rejection of coincidence as a possible explanation implies. If there was no cause-and-effect relationship between Gardasil and AML, we should expect that there would still be cases of people who receive Gardasil and then develop AML within the following two years. Even if only one person in fifty received Gardasil and only one person in every hundred thousand developed AML, we would still expect one in every five million to have both. That’s what coincidence is, things which can happen individually happening together even without a cause-and-effect relationship!

    But when Goofus says that it cannot be coincidence for this youngster to develop AML, what she is saying is that AML never develops other than as a result of Gardasil. Which, since AML has been around for several times as many years as Gardasil has been, is obviously false!

  194. #194 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    wintermute,

    Which would be why we don’t do that. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

    Please check #117 and look for the word humane. Good thing you’re not a mouse (you can type but unable to follow the thread) or you’ll be disposed of quickly.

  195. #195 Chris P
    April 12, 2011

    It is a choice,end of story!

  196. #196 LW
    April 12, 2011

    Every so often I hear the term “intravenous drug user”. But since, as Th1Th2 has so cogently demonstrated, absolutely every avenue into the body is intravenous, a drug user is an IV drug user whether he smokes his drugs, snorts them, eats them, rubs them on his skin, uses them as suppositories, injects them just under the skin, or shoots them into a vein, it’s odd, really, that the authorities speak of IV drug users as if they are somehow different from other drug users.

    By the way, Th1Th2, I assume that on your planet there is a term for the method of drug administration that involves places a needle in a vein and injecting substances into that vein. What is that term?

  197. #197 wintermute
    April 12, 2011

    You’re right. I should have said “That would be why we don’t do that in humans.” Of course, if we’d never done the mouse studies, we’d not know that there was a reason not to inject them intravenously; would you prefer that scenario?

    My apologies for thinking you could infer* context from other people’s posts.

    * In this case, I’m using “infer” to mean “read the plainly written words”.

  198. #198 herr doktor bimler
    April 12, 2011

    This all seems to be a lot of effort to get around Stephanie’s plain, unambiguous and completely wrong statement at #33 about “injecting [vaccines] into their children’s bloodstreams”. Any references to experiments with mice or vaccination methods in 1917 (not to mention quibbling about the long-term destination of substances administered elsewhere) can safely be replaced with the word ‘wibble’ without becoming any less relevant.

  199. #199 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    Th1Th2

    Seriously, you don’t wanna make a claim because you don’t wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.

    Ummm…no. The reasons I don’t make a claim are:
    a) the last biology class I took was some time ago;
    b) that class did not discuss this level of detail; and
    c) as I don’t work with this every day, I can’t say in detail how the body processes an intramuscular or subcutaneous injection.

    I suppose the various ingredients could enter the bloodstream. And?

  200. #200 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 12, 2011

    LW – I forgot suppositories, possibly a Freudian reaction on my part. Thanks for the reminder.

  201. #201 Chris
    April 12, 2011

    Myself:

    No, we are denying that they have nothing to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011. But you have been told that more than once.

    Aaagh… stupid double negative! We are denying they have anything to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011.

    I must be mixed up with Th1Th2’s malapropisms.

  202. #202 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Chris,

    Look at the tense, the word is “is”, which is present tense. That means at the moment. That means at the moment the needle is being used and the syringe is being pressed. I did not use the future version of “will not go into the vein.”
    At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form). At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines “intravenous”, it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine.

    So in reference to the original comments made on #34 herewith:

    No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children’s bloodstreams.

    Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream. I think your “research” may be a wee bit deficient.

    Chris is basically telling us that vaccine ingredients are indeed injected into children’s bloodstreams through intramuscular and subcutaneous routes. Thanks Chris.

    P.S. Don’t forget to remove the needle cap before you inject.

  203. #203 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    herr doktor bimler,

    The 3rd alternative, of course, is “neither” — the antigens and ingredients are metabolised, or taken up by immune-system cells, or otherwise disposed of.
    In the case of pre-exposure intradermal injections for typhoid and rabies, the antigens apparently drain into the lymphatic system where they encounter CD4 cells and T-cells and do their job (I had to look this up).
    If only I was sure that the question showed a genuine desire to be informed.

    Neither? You’re kidding right? If it is so, then I assume you’re a bloodless creature made up of lymph or just pure gas. Which one is it?

  204. #204 Militant Agnostic
    April 12, 2011

    Kristen

    I’m going to go get some I.V. fresh air and try to rid myself of my sudden feelings of shame for being the same species as a person this willfully imbecilic.

    Don’t worry. By the power vested in me by my dogs (who think I am Napoleon), I have re-defined homo sapiens in such a that it does not include thingy. I had considered an alternative way of re-defining things so you were not con-specific with thingy , but that alternative would have made it advisable for you to stay indoors during hunting season. As an added bonus with the re-definitional strategy that I chose, if thingy persists in its willful ignorance it can be considered furniture and sold.

    Thingy – perhaps you can find a junkie who can educate you on the fine points of the benefits and drawbacks of the intravenous administration of drugs.

  205. #205 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    LW,

    By the way, Th1Th2, I assume that on your planet there is a term for the method of drug administration that involves places a needle in a vein and injecting substances into that vein. What is that term?

    Cut the nonsense. Check #77 and #99.

  206. #206 Heliantus
    April 12, 2011

    Well, if you define “injected into the bloodstream” as “eventually arriving there”, notwithstanding the time between the injection of the vaccine components into a muscle and their slow release into adjacent tissues…

    I think we should call a car an instantaneous teleporting gate. Same business.

  207. #207 Th1Th2
    April 12, 2011

    Thingy – perhaps you can find a junkie who can educate you on the fine points of the benefits and drawbacks of the intravenous administration of drugs.

    Like vaccines and vaccinators, keep the drugs and drug pushers out of children’s reach.

    5.5 Parenteral
    There is no therapeutic use for parenteral cocaine administration.
    Drug abusers inject cocaine hydrochloride subcutaneously, intramuscularly or intravenously alone or with heroin (“speedball”) or with other drugs (Jeri, 1984; Cregler & Mark,1987).

    They are dangerous.

  208. #208 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 13, 2011

    Chris is basically telling us that vaccine ingredients are indeed injected into children’s bloodstreams through intramuscular and subcutaneous routes.

    No, because if a vaccine is injected intramuscularly, it is injected into a muscle, not a blood vessel. Similarly, if it is injected subcutaneously, it is injected into the separation between the dermis and the interior of the body, not a blood vessel. According to Th1Th2’s logic, if I pick up a spent bullet from a firing range, I have just been shot in the fingers.

  209. #209 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Heliantus,

    Well, if you define “injected into the bloodstream” as “eventually arriving there”, notwithstanding the time between the injection of the vaccine components into a muscle and their slow release into adjacent tissues…
    I think we should call a car an instantaneous teleporting gate. Same business.

    No, they are not the same. Imagine without the bloodstreams, vaccination will be even more barbaric than we have hitherto since it will involve incision of the lymph nodes or the spleen to deliver the vaccine ingredients. Instantaneous teleporting gate? No. Brutality, yes.

  210. #210 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Chris is basically telling us that vaccine ingredients are indeed injected into children’s bloodstreams through intramuscular and subcutaneous routes. Thanks Chris.

    Bullshit. I never said any such thing. And when I used a double negative, I subsequently corrected myself. I wrote: “At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines “intravenous”, it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine.”

    Th1Th2, you are no longer allowed to re-interpret anything I write. You seem to have a limited grasp of basic English vocabulary and grammar.

    The vaccination needle never enters a vein. Therefore it is not intravenous. End of story. Get over it.

    (if you do indeed have a child, I really really hope that some sane person removes he/she from your care for the child’s safety, both mentally and physically)

  211. #211 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    Here is the updated website of all recommended childhood vaccines which includes THE PROPER way to immunize:

    Administering Vaccines: Dose, Route, Site and Needle Size

  212. #212 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 13, 2011

    Imagine without the bloodstreams, vaccination will be even more barbaric than we have hitherto since it will involve incision of the lymph nodes or the spleen to deliver the vaccine ingredients.

    Imagine without roads, cars will be required to be airlifted to deliver the occupants to their destinations…

  213. #213 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 13, 2011

    Imagine I drive to the airport, park my car, get out, pocket my car keys, walk through the terminal, and board the plane. According to Th1Th2’s logic, I just drove onto the plane.

  214. #214 Narad
    April 13, 2011

    Brutality, yes.

    And, finally, the return to the rape analogy.

    Put another nickel in
    The Th1-elodeon
    All I want is purity
    No mayo! in my! vein-o!

  215. #215 Heliantus
    April 13, 2011

    @ the Thing 209

    Ah, I forgot. You don’t get metaphors and sarcasm rebounds on you.

    So it will be brutality and more barbarism to use surgery to “instantaneously teleport” vaccine ingredients into the spleen or the lymph nodes. You know, I think you are right. Thanks goodness we don’t do it (yes, that was sarcasm).

    Um. Maybe that’s why some slower, roundabout ways were designed, like intramuscular injections. You know, ways to inject a foreign substance with less brutality compared to a direct injection into the bloodstream.

  216. #216 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    lilady, you are allowed to post the web addresses here. The titles are helpful, but the link addresses are more convenient. You don’t need to imbed them (though the titles you provide do make them the top of the Google list). Here it is:
    http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p3085.pdf

    Wow! It even has pictures! So, Th1Th2, look at the pretty pictures. Tell us which one shows the end of the needle going into a vein.

    Tell us, Th1Th2, what is your first language? Because it certainly is not English.

  217. #217 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    Chris: I’m working on my linking skills…great public health
    nurse but not so great at techie stuff..

    I knew you would enjoy the site and I had it all along…just playing with a troll here (who doesn’t know that the Latin phrase is “in situ” not “in sutu”.

  218. #218 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    Bullshit. I never said any such thing.

    Oh really. Check it again.

    At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form).

    The vaccination needle never enters a vein. Therefore it is not intravenous. End of story. Get over it.

    Are you saying the vaccination needle never enters a highly vascularized body part like the deltoid muscle which has an abundant blood supply? Instead, like lilady’s infamous beneath-the-skin PPD, you would recommend that vaccines must be injected into fibrotic tissues? Wherever did you learn such technique?

  219. #219 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form).

    Where is the word “needle” in that sentence? What does “usually in a modified form” mean in Earth (not on Htrae)?

    You’ve done this kind of egregious lying before. You go through incredible linguistic gymnastics to avoid saying “I’m sorry, I was wrong.”

    Please, if there is any justice in this world: Th1Th2 should never be the parent of any child. The psychological warfare this idiot employs would cause serious harm. That is because Th1Th2 is a liar, idiot and psychotic.

    Your only excuse is that English is not your first language. It is not my first language either, so that is nothing to be ashamed of. Unfortunately after age three no one spoke to me in my first language, so my use of it is no longer fluent.

  220. #220 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund,

    Imagine without roads, cars will be required to be airlifted to deliver the occupants to their destinations…

    I guess it does/will happen when you apply Militant Agnostic’s imaginary claim.

    Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream. I think your “research” may be a wee bit deficient.

  221. #221 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Oooh, look… I employed the evil double negative in the sentence “At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form).”

    Yeah, eventually some part of the vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream, but not directly from the needle. They need to go through muscle and/or fat tissue. This is where they run into the body’s immune system. What eventually enters the bloodstream is not exactly what was contained in the syringe or needle. Deal with it.

    Stop being an idiot. Stop being a liar. Start learning how to live in this reality. And I really fear for any of your offspring.

  222. #222 Narad
    April 13, 2011

    Please, if there is any justice in this world: Th1Th2 should never be the parent recipient of any child replies it can feed on.

    Better?

  223. #223 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    Thingy: Unlike you, some of us have education in the sciences, some of us are licensed physicians and nurses. I learned proper immunization techniques in college and on the job. I have literally given thousands of immunizations to infants, children and adults and immunized with immunoglobulin thousands of individuals exposed to vaccine-preventable illnesses and to food borne Hepatitis A. I also have Mantoux tested thousands of individuals for tuberculosis screenings and for exposure to an active case of T.B. The vaccines were injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly…never IV. Mantoux testing is done by injecting Purified Protein Derivative intradermally…never IV. I also vaccinated several dozen “first responders” with Dryvax smallpox vaccine with the proper technique of multiple punctures with a bifurcated implement…never IV.

    The only time I ever used an IV needle was to start intravenous solution infusion on a patient in a hospital, or to draw blood for lab testing.

    So, what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse? How many immunizations have you ever given?

  224. #224 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Narad, sadly, no. I can deal with Th1Th2 morphing my replies into its reality. A child could not. That would be a permanent tragedy.

    (Unfortunately as a stepdaughter I am all too familiar with that scenario, which makes Th1Th2’s re-interpretations more heinous.)

  225. #225 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    Please, please guys…don’t get swept into Thing’s “thing”.

    Need I remind you of the insane postings from the Thing a few weeks back when Thing couldn’t (or wouldn’t) acknowledge the difference between antigens and antibodies, the difference between TIG and Tetanus Toxoid Vaccine, the difference between HRIG and Rabies vaccine? Attempts to educate Thing were totally futile as he has not a clue about passive immunity, passive acquired immunity, or the ABCs of immunology, no clue about post-exposure prophylaxis versus pre-exposure immunizations…just totally clueless.

    Just ignore any further postings by Thing…you cannot argue with his obviously deranged thinking processes.

  226. #226 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    Yeah, eventually some part of the vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream, but not directly from the needle. They need to go through muscle and/or fat tissue. This is where they run into the body’s immune system. What eventually enters the bloodstream is not exactly what was contained in the syringe or needle. Deal with it.

    Chris you’re no different than a little child telling stories about her imaginary friends. Grow up.

  227. #227 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    lilady,

    #224, You’re speculating as always. Where did that occur?

  228. #228 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    lilady,

    #222, So you’re saying that beneath-the-skin injection of PPD is proper and safe technique? Could you cite a source that supports your ridiculous claim. Proper lingo is not acceptable.

  229. #229 Francisco Martinez
    April 13, 2011

    – on August 25, the UK Daily Mail said “Up to half of (British) family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu,” and one-third of them said the vaccine was inadequately tested;

    — in Australia, “Leading infectious disease experts have called on the Federal Government to abandon its mass swine-flu vaccination plan because of fears the vaccine is a contamination risk that could spread blood-borne diseases;”

    — In Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1905), the US Supreme Court ruled that the state could require people to be vaccinated for the common good; in April 2009, NECN.com reported that a possible new Massachusetts law (Bill 2028) will require compulsory vaccinations; those refusing face $1,000 a day fines or 30 days in prison; after the state senate unanimously passed it, Catherine Austin Fitts concluded that Boston’s money men must be “very scared about something,” given that the city is “the capital of equity investment;”

    — on August 25, Health Minister Ulla Schmidt admitted on German TV that the Swine Flu vaccination campaign was a hoax and the largest ever inoculation experiment in history; and

    — on August 22, Dr. Wolfgang Wogarg, chairman of the health committee in the German parliament and European Council, warned about potential Swine Flu vaccine safety. He said Novartis’ vaccine contained cancerous animal cells, and emphasized peoples’ fears over the disease from being inoculated. “It is a great business for the pharmaceutical industry,” he told Neuen Presse. Swine flu is not very different from conventional flu, but the vaccine can have dangerous side effects.

    Global Research, August 28, 2009 by Stephen Lendman

  230. #230 Javier
    April 13, 2011

    INOCULATIONS: THE TRUE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
    CAUSING VIDS (VACCINE INDUCED DISEASES)(AN EPIDEMIC OF GENOCIDE)

    What the promoters of vaccination failed to realize is that secretory IgA (an antibody found predominately in
    saliva and secretions of the gastrointestinal and respiratory tract mucosa) is the initial
    normal antibody response to all airborne and ingested pathogens.

    Bypassing this mucosal aspect of the immune system by directly injecting organisms into the body leads to a corruption in the immune system itself.

    As a result, the pathogenic viruses or bacteria cannot be eliminated by the immune system and remain in the body, where they cause chronic disease and thus further grow and/or mutate as the individual is exposed to ever more antigens and toxins in the environment

    by Rebecca Carley, M.D.
    Court Qualified Expert in VIDS and Legal Abuse Syndrome
    Amended June 23, 2008

  231. #231 Ruby
    April 13, 2011

    Doctors Speak Out on Vaccine Dangers

    The Merck Manual (first published in 1899, now available in a Home Edition) warns individuals with B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies to avoid live-virus vaccines (the main ingredient in ones produced by Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline, and perhaps others) due to the risk of severe or fatal infections. Immunodeficiencies include common food allergies, inhalant ones, eczema, dermatitis, neurological deterioration and heart disease. Vaccines may be lethal for people with these conditions because their immune systems can’t produce a healthy reaction to the viral assault on them. Getting it may induce illnesses they’re intended to prevent and many other potentially deadly ones.

    On April 2, 2002 in the London Telegraph, autism specialist Dr. Kenneth Aitken said: “When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic). Now it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation for this is MMR” immunizations.

    On April 27, 1979, at the American Society of Microbiology meeting, a paper by Drs. Anthony Morris, John Chriss, and BG Young titled, “Occurrence of Measles in Previously Vaccinated Individuals” concluded that “By the (US) government’s own admission, there has been a 41% failure rate in persons who were previously vaccinated against the (measles) virus.”

    A 1993 British Medical Journal article stated: “In 1993 a high court judge in the UK decided that it was impossible to know the exact contents of vaccines and that science had no idea what the cocktails of chemicals, contaminants and heavy metals contained in vaccines could do to the human body, or why they would work to prevent disease.”

    Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former FDA Vaccine Control head said: “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good.” He concluded that “There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway.”

    Professor LC Vincent, Bioelectronics founder, said “Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukemia.”

    In December 1985, Dr. Albert Sabin, discoverer of the oral polio vaccine, admitted that “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”

    The National Institute of Health’s (NIH) Dr. James A. Shannon said that “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used.”

    Professor Ari Zukerman of the World Health Organization (WHO) stated: “Immunization against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”

    Dr. Paul Frame in the Journal of Family Practice believes “There is insufficient evidence to support routine vaccination of healthy persons of any age.”

    Dr. John B. Classen stated that his “data proves that the studies used to support immunization are so flawed that it is impossible to say if immunization provides a net benefit to anyone or to society in general.”

    Dr. Gerhard Buchwald concluded from the results of 150 trials that “Vaccination is not necessary, not useful, (and) does not protect. There are twice as many casualties from vaccination as from AIDS.”

    The Association of American Physicians & Surgeons stated that “Public policy regarding vaccines is fundamentally flawed. It is permeated by conflicts of interest. It is based on poor scientific methodology (and it’s) insulated from independent criticism.”

  232. #232 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Javier, are you telling us that Th1Th2 is actually Rebecca Carley? A woman who lost custody of her son because of mental illness? Good to know!

    Mr. Martinez: you make no sense at all. Could you try scientific cites that are actually relevant and pertain to the 21st century. We mean real scientific cites that can be found in medical school libraries, not silly news reports or legislative directives. And none from more than a century ago (1905? You really thought that was current?). Thanks.

  233. #233 Lawrence
    April 13, 2011

    http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/carley/order_2004.shtml

    If they are the same person, based on the results of the hearing in NY, it certainly explains its complete lack of understanding.

    It holds up two instances – one involving Mice & another involving a medical procedure from 90 years ago that isn’t even performed anymore (and hasn’t been in quite some time) as some kind of “holy grail” argument winner, while completely ignoring that neither of those two items have anything to do with the actual discussion.

  234. #234 Anton P. Nym
    April 13, 2011

    If we’re going to go around citing evidence from 100+ years ago, perhaps we should also go around citing disease prevalence from 100+ years ago and compare the relative risks.

    I’d also like to know how many people citing these data actually have seen the epidemics that were common back then. My mother was a young child when the Salk vaccine for polio was announced to stupendous public rejoicing… and her opinion of the anti-vax “movement” is nigh-unprintable.

    — Steve

  235. #235 colmcq
    April 13, 2011

    “by Rebecca Carley, M.D.
    Court Qualified Expert in VIDS and Legal Abuse Syndrome
    Amended June 23, 2008

    Posted by: Javier ”

    so what about pathogens entering the bloodstream by, you know, cuts or abrasions to the skin?

    heh

  236. #236 LW
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2 is plainly impervious to reason, but it’s too early to go to work, so I’ll respond once more.  

    When a vaccine is injected intramuscularly, it is presented to the immune system at that point. It then makes its way slowly and indirectly, in a more or less altered form, to the blood vessels or into the lymphatic system. But the key words are “slowly” and “indirectly”. That gives the immune system time to take a good look at it and prepare in case it ever sees the actual disease.

    On the other hand, if a drug is injected intravenously, it goes directly into the bloodstream and has an immediate effect. It is not desirable that a vaccine be injected directly into the bloodstream; amusingly, Th1T2’s example of the typhoid vaccine is a good example of why.  The vaccine was not used *as a vaccine*; it was given to people who had “the developed typhoid fever”, that is, people who were already sick.  And as Th1Th2’s own quotation stated:

    It often induces a crisis and prompt recovery. The action is probably not due to specific antibodies, for similar effects are produced by other vaccines, albumoses, etc. (J.L. Miller and Lusk, 1916; Jobling, 1917). It is apparently a result of the fever.

    As T. Bruce McNeely explained, this means that it was used as “a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever.” More fully, in the pre-antibiotic days, doctors tried various mechanisms to assist the body in fighting off a disease. One such was to deliberately induce “a crisis” characterized by high fever (a pyrogen is something that induces fever).  There were lots of treatments in the pre-antibiotic days that we would never consider today (mercury for syphilis, for instance), and this is one of them.  

    Th1Th2 triumphantly brought out this 1917 treatment in response to the statement, “No human vaccine is given IV.” It thinks it has somehow refuted the statement because that statement was false in 1917. Well, I have another statement for Th1Th2: “The United States is not engaged in trench warfare in France.” I breathlessly await Th1Th2’s refutation of this statement. 

  237. #237 Lawrence
    April 13, 2011

    Particularly apt statement regarding all of our resident trolls:

    “The Committee’s majority determined that the Respondent suffers from a delusional disorder that impairs the Respondent’s ability to practice medicine. The Committee found further that the Respondent’s impairment involves a rigid thinking pattern that extends to her professional life and renders her incapable to exercise open-minded judgement required to evaluate and diagnose medical disorders and arrive at appropriate conclusions regarding optimal therapy. The ARB concludes that the Respondent’s impairment makes her unfit for medical practice and could place patients at risk. We conclude further that the Respondent fails to acknowledge her impairment or the need to obtain treatment. We see no alternative means to protect the public other then revoking the Respondent’s License.”

  238. #238 Gayl Hamilton, MD
    April 13, 2011

    Kudos to CBS for running that message!!!
    As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
    Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.
    For just one second pretend you know nothing about the topic, and read the original journal articles, the package inserts, etc. Forget the dogma. Just use your own, independent, intelligent mind.
    I was brainwashed at one point, too, which I find amazing and disgusting at the same time – I have never really taken anyone’s word about anything else in medicine or my life without asking questions.
    It’s about vaccine SAFETY, our children’s SAFETY, our own SAFETY. And THAT is what has not been accounted for. There are no adequately trialled safety studies. There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time. Not one.
    We are so skeptical of everything else in this world, but somehow the fear of illness has made us blind. Take a look around – we are not a well people. And we get sicker all the time.
    There are fanatics on both sides of this issue.
    Don’t take my word, NVIC’s word, Dr. Mercola’s word, the CDC’s word or anyone else’s. Do the same research that you would do before buying a car or a home, or undergoing a major surgery. NVIC and Mercola’s websites, among others, provide the tools for your research. They provide the links to original documents and publications that the CDC and FDA are not willing provide or publicize.
    Vaccine safety advocates do not stand to gain any wealth or power from their efforts of educating the public. I “lose” money by not vaccinating my patients. I don’t get the federal or insurance company “kickbacks” for maintaining a high rate of immunization. I get criticized by my peers. So why do I continue? Because I took an oath to DO NO HARM. I took an oath to serve and protect the well being of my patients, not my bank account.
    Until there are satisfactory safety studies that tell me that the risks of all these vaccines I am supposed to be giving is less than the risk of the illnesses they are supposed to protect us from I will continue to question the dogma.
    If you agree with the censorship of books like “To Kill a Mockingbird”, to the censorship of history topics that make the US look not so nice, with dictatorships that do not allow the “dissidents” to express their opinions, then I guess I have wasted my keystrokes on here.
    If you agree with freedom of science, ideology, and questioning old standards, then you will not fear the ad being run in Times Square. You will embrace it, explore it, and perhaps learn something you didn’t know yesterday.

  239. #239 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 13, 2011

    As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
    Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.

    Just a quick question – is there some reason why you did not provide citations of a few of these articles?

  240. #240 Todd W.
    April 13, 2011

    There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time.

    Here’s one.

  241. #241 madder
    April 13, 2011

    @Gayl Hamilton:

    READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
    Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.

    Please provide one example of a Cochrane Library analysis in which the data were manipulated to obtain a desired result, show where/how the manipulation occurred, and how the results and interpretation would be different without that manipulation.

    It’s about vaccine SAFETY, our children’s SAFETY, our own SAFETY. And THAT is what has not been accounted for.

    Which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease it is meant to prevent? Please include references. A PubMed ID will suffice.

    There are no adequately trialled safety studies. There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time. Not one.

    False. All vaccine safety studies include patients receiving the standard vaccinations– that is, multiple ones.

    NVIC and Mercola’s websites, among others, provide the tools for your research. They provide the links to original documents and publications that the CDC and FDA are not willing provide or publicize.

    Because NVIC and Mercola cannot be trusted. Try searching for either of those names in the searchbox at the top left of this webpage.

    I “lose” money by not vaccinating my patients.

    How does this minor loss compare to the money you earn by treating the resulting vaccine-preventable diseases?

    If you agree with the censorship of books like “To Kill a Mockingbird”, to the censorship of history topics that make the US look not so nice, with dictatorships that do not allow the “dissidents” to express their opinions, then I guess I have wasted my keystrokes on here.
    If you agree with freedom of science, ideology, and questioning old standards, then you will not fear the ad being run in Times Square. You will embrace it, explore it, and perhaps learn something you didn’t know yesterday.

    Well, that was stirring. I suppose that you think you’re some sort of patriot for leaving your patients vulnerable to diseases that could have been prevented. I think you’re despicable. Try spending some time with someone in an iron lung due to polio, or parents who watched their baby cough to death with pertussis, or someone who’s sterile because of mumps orchitis, or deaf because of the measles, or whose child has rubella-induced autism (these people exist, but can you tell us why they are so hard to find?). Your refusal to vaccinate is a clear violation of the standard of care, and I hope you’re reported to your state licensing board.

  242. #242 JayK
    April 13, 2011

    Dr. Hamilton,
    Do you realize how many conspiracy theories you just brought up to attempt to minimize the arguments of those which you disagree? You’ve used the Pharma Shill Gambit, you use an argument to authority in stating you are an MD and you used a circular argument when saying that we shouldn’t take Mercola or NVIC’s word, but we should trust their documentation. You also attempted to provide protection against charges of monetary gain, which was never leveled against you, while ignoring the fact that Mercola sells a massive amount of supplementals. By implication, you accuse those educated in actual science of gaining monetarily.

    You’ve offered nothing specific, you’ve used the same emotional arguments and arguments from incredulity that has been done by the anti-vax side for dozens of years. Get something original, like proof of your claims.

  243. #243 Todd W.
    April 13, 2011

    I “lose” money by not vaccinating my patients.

    Let’s see, you lose money, but can make up for it in spades by treating, for example, pertussis.

  244. #244 Pablo
    April 13, 2011

    There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time.

    Here’s one.

    So Todd, how long did it take you to find that reference?

    PS Gayl – I am wondering, is your failure due to incompetent journal searching skills, an inability to read, or something else?

  245. #245 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Gayl Hamilton, MD

    As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).

    Oh, goody! Finally someone who is willing to answer my question with real journal articles!

    Please “Dr.” Hamilton, could you please provide the cites that show the MMR vaccine is riskier than measles, mumps, and rubella? Please to the same for DTaP, Hib, IPV and the varicella vaccine. I live only a couple of miles from a medical school library where I can look up the full papers.

    Also, can you answer the question I posed above with the census data of measles incidence? That also seems to one of those questions that those who use ALL CAPS have trouble with.

    Oh, and speaking of the Cochrane Library, have you seen this editorial, which says:

    This is less dramatic than the Laetrile example, but still, in our opinion, not satisfying. As we will (hopefully) never have proper control groups for the MMR vaccine, the review’s conclusions lead to a paradox: how can the effect of the MMR vaccine be proven through population or clinical outcomes (i.e. incidence of disease) when there is no non-exposed control group?

  246. #246 Todd W.
    April 13, 2011

    @Pablo

    No more than 30 seconds. Would’ve been faster if I didn’t need to read the abstract first.

  247. #247 Anton P. Nym
    April 13, 2011

    It’s about vaccine SAFETY, our children’s SAFETY, our own SAFETY.

    Yes. Precisely. AND THAT’S WHY WE VACCINATE. Because even if we take the word of the anti-vax hysterics literally, a simple review of public health records show that VACCINE COMPLICATIONS ARE VASTLY FEWER AND MORE BENIGN THAN THOSE OF THE ILLNESSES THEY PREVENT.

    I also know, again from public health records, that the two most dangerous phases of vaccinating children occur during the drive to the vaccination and the drive home. Again, even accepting the word of an underwear model with a comedian ex- as unvarnished scientific truth, kids are far more likely to be in a collision than they are to suffer adverse effects from an innoculation.

    If you want to protect your kid from the risks of vaccination, don’t drive. Ever. Trade in the minivan and take the bus. You’ll save a lot of money and the environment, too.

    (And you certainly are not losing money as a medical practitioner by not vaccinating; in the long run, you’re guaranteeing yourself a lot of repeat business from preventable diseases. That this drives up health care costs is a secondary concern, but given the current US obsession over spiraling health insurance premiums and the liquidity of Medicare it is a topical one.)

    (Hey, there’s an idea; treat anti-vax statements from physicians as a warning sign of insurance fraud?)

    — Steve

  248. #248 augustine
    April 13, 2011

    Chris

    Here is some data on the incidence of measles between 1912 to the 1990s. Please tell us why the rate of measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970:

    The only people who care about incidence rates for measles are vaccine scaremongers.Same for chickenpox. Nobody cares about the incidence rate of measles. They care about permanent sequelae.

    Why did mortality drop drastically before 1967? It wasn’t because of vaccines.

    Weren’t you the one who used scaremongering tactics with the tetanus? Something about insects spreading tetanus are scraping your knee. You even used a cute little journal link to pretend you had “evidence” for your scaremongering rationale.

  249. #249 augustine
    April 13, 2011

    Chris

    The package inserts are “cover your ass” bits written by lawyers.

    Citation???

    They shouldn’t put ANY of the side effects on the package insert. It should read as follows:

    SIDE EFFECTS: So What? What are you gonna do about? Nothin’. Just what I thought. Just take the damn vaccine!

  250. #250 wintemute
    April 13, 2011

    Why did mortality drop drastically before 1967? It wasn’t because of vaccines.

    It wasn’t? The measles vaccine was introduced in 1963*, which looks like it coincides with the start of the drop-off. Why do you think it must have taken four years to have an effect?

    * This is based on a couple of minutes at Google, so people who know better, feel free to correct me.

  251. #251 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    @ Javier: Lawrence only provided you with the Final Order that revoked Rebecca Lee Carley’s license to practice medicine in New York State. See the entire sordid mess including license suspension and license revocation at:

    OPMC Rebecca Lee Carley

    Sure, she tells her “audience” that there was a conspiracy by the courts and by New York State agencies to remove her license to practice because she was anti-vax and she can cure autism…nothing like that ever happened. Since the time she was licensed, she displayed early signs of mental illness and she went “full bore” when her child’s custody was given to the father. She is not “court qualified” in any way.

    I spoke to her (got stuck speaking to her) when she would call the health department where I worked. She, unfortunately is mentally ill and needs some serious therapy and a course of major anti-psychotic medications. The psychiatrists who examined her state she also has a personality disorder; there is no therapy or medication to treat that.

  252. #252 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    LW,

    When a vaccine is injected intramuscularly, it is presented to the immune system at that point. It then makes its way slowly and indirectly, in a more or less altered form, to the blood vessels or into the lymphatic system. But the key words are “slowly” and “indirectly”. That gives the immune system time to take a good look at it and prepare in case it ever sees the actual disease.

    That didn’t even refute the fact that vaccines are indeed injected [slowly and indirectly] into the bloodstreams. You merely explained and supported the mechanism behind parenteral injection of vaccines.

    On the other hand, if a drug is injected intravenously, it goes directly into the bloodstream and has an immediate effect. It is not desirable that a vaccine be injected directly into the bloodstream; amusingly, Th1T2’s example of the typhoid vaccine is a good example of why. The vaccine was not used *as a vaccine*; it was given to people who had “the developed typhoid fever”, that is, people who were already sick.

    What’s so undesirable about prompt recovery anyway? You tell me. You know people with classic typhoid can run a course of fevers in weeks but there’s a shorter alternative hence the intravenous typhoid vaccine. To claim that the vaccine was not used a vaccine is just plain ignorance.

    As T. Bruce McNeely explained, this means that it was used as “a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever.” More fully, in the pre-antibiotic days, doctors tried various mechanisms to assist the body in fighting off a disease. One such was to deliberately induce “a crisis” characterized by high fever (a pyrogen is something that induces fever). There were lots of treatments in the pre-antibiotic days that we would never consider today (mercury for syphilis, for instance), and this is one of them.

    Oh I see where you got it wrong when you claimed “the vaccine was not used as a vaccine”. It’s because your mind is full of contradiction. Isn’t it the typhoid vaccine itself a pyrogen that induces the high fever?

    Th1Th2 triumphantly brought out this 1917 treatment in response to the statement, “No human vaccine is given IV.” It thinks it has somehow refuted the statement because that statement was false in 1917.

    Well, the intravenous typhoid vaccine was so triumphant its use continued during the 1930’s.

  253. #253 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    @ Wintemute: Right you are, about prevalence and incidence rates of measles plummeting following licensing of measles vaccine in 1963. In fact following licensing, measles incidence went down by 98 %. See web: CDC Pink Book Measles.

  254. #254 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Here is some data on the incidence of measles between 1912 to the 1990s. Please tell us why the rate of measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970:

    Nah. Chris is actually telling us how the primary measles infection caused by wild-type measles virus was replaced by primary measles infection caused by the measles vaccines.

    Again, how many naive children were deliberately infected with the measles virus in the vaccine? How many people were inoculated Chris? Show us the numbers.

  255. #255 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    Thingy: We are all waiting for you to answer the questions I posed to you at # 222, above:

    So what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse?

    How many immunizations have you ever given?

  256. #256 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2, if the measles vaccine caused primary measles infection, why didn’t we seem the same effects (death rates, permanent sequelae) associated with measles?

  257. #257 madder
    April 13, 2011

    Thingy has argued that vaccines are bad because they’re injected into the bloodstream. Now:

    What’s so undesirable about prompt recovery anyway? You tell me.

    about injecting some vaccine directly into the bloodstream. Thingy can’t even be bothered to maintain consistency on a single comment thread. So we’ll conclude with another Thingy quote:

    It’s because your mind is full of contradiction.

  258. #258 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Again, how many naive children were deliberately infected with the measles virus in the vaccine? How many people were inoculated Chris? Show us the numbers.

    Sorry, I only deal with science and math that pertains to Earth, not Htrae. On Earth between 80% to 90% of American children become immune to the wild measles virus due to the MMR vaccine. That is why we no longer need to bury about one child per family, or send away children to institutions to rot after they became permanently disabled. Something that was common in the 19th century.

    The fact that children have an actual chance of growing up is because of advances in medical treatment (antibiotics, ventilators), water and sewage treatment and vaccines. Not just one of those things, but all of those things.

  259. #259 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    Wow! It even has pictures! So, Th1Th2, look at the pretty pictures. Tell us which one shows the end of the needle going into a vein.

    I couldn’t tell but you will need Band-Aid or a cotton ball for a needlestick injury like that right?

    BTW, did you also show lilady where the PPD is properly injected? Is it beneath or within the layers of the skin? I’m surprised the subcutaneous and the muscles tissues lie beneath the skin! Unbelievable. Lastly, do you have any needle gauge smaller than tuberculin syringe so I can inject the PPD? I don’t want to hit those microscopic capillaries with the needle end you know. Haha. Pretty pictures indeed.

  260. #260 Johnny
    April 13, 2011

    Is this the same Gayl Hamilton, MD who is on the board of the Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center

    http://imcv-wi.org/BoardofDirectors.aspx

    From the bio…

    ” From 2004 to present, Dr. Hamilton practices family medicine and OB at Divine Savior Healthcare in Portage and Pardeeville, WI. Her special interests include preventive healthcare, nutrition, sports medicine, alternative medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics, vaccine research, and maintaining the ideals of the family practice. Dr. Hamilton is mother to five children: four girls, one boy ages 14 to 21, one with Down’s syndrome and autism.”

    The mission statement for the Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center is-

    Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center aims to prevent vaccine injury and death by providing Wisconsin physicians and residents access to truthful medical information on vaccines and an understanding of Wisconsin vaccine exemption law.

    The ‘Get Smart’ tab on the site reads like a ‘Who’s Who’ of the vaccine cranks.

    The woo is strong in this one.

  261. #261 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    So, Th1Th2, what is your educational background? Is it the custom on Htrae to brag about how little you attended school?

    Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

  262. #262 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Th1Th2, if the measles vaccine caused primary measles infection, why didn’t we seem the same effects (death rates, permanent sequelae) associated with measles?

    It’s because primary measles caused by natural infection is generally benign and uncomplicated. That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital). For doctors and vaccine apologists it is deadly because these infection promoters know how to complicate things.

  263. #263 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 13, 2011

    That didn’t even refute the fact that vaccines are indeed injected [slowly and indirectly] into the bloodstreams.

    You just contradicted yourself, Th1Th2. That’s like saying a car teleports you [slowly and indirectly] to a destination.

  264. #264 CG
    April 13, 2011

    You have to remember Thingy has previously claimed the measles vaccine results in a chronic infection.

    It doesn’t seem to realize the complications of the vaccine are many times lower than the wild type virus.

  265. #265 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

    It’s a drawing. Why don’t you provide us, your fans, with a complete illustration of the human skin where the blood vessels are shown.

    You know Wiki is waiting for you. I’ll let you do the honors.

  266. #266 ArtK
    April 13, 2011

    I think I get it now! Thingy’s afraid of needles!

    Whatsammatta Thingy? Got a shot when you were little and they didn’t give you a lollipop?

  267. #267 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    @ Chris: Don’t even waste your time on Thing; he is a typical troll…and sadly lacking in any reasoning skills, no less a science based background to understand 3rd grade science. Thing doesn’t have a higher education degree in any field and is totally unable to understand simple diagrams and pictures; he lives in his “own world” populated by other ranting, raving trolls. Sad.

  268. #268 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    It’s because primary measles caused by natural infection is generally benign and uncomplicated. That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital). For doctors and vaccine apologists it is deadly because these infection promoters know how to complicate things.

    Are you serious? Do you know what the death rate from measles was before modern medicine? If modern medicine only makes things worse, why hasn’t anybody noticed?
    Another thing. You were told, repeatedly, that IV use of typhoid was not a vaccine. Why do you keep insisting it is?

    It’s a drawing. Why don’t you provide us, your fans, with a complete illustration of the human skin where the blood vessels are shown.

    Do you know what a capillary is? Seriously?

  269. #269 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund

    You just contradicted yourself, Th1Th2. That’s like saying a car teleports you [slowly and indirectly] to a destination.

    Check #208. What part of the word No do you not understand?

  270. #270 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2, I can’t make heads or tails out of #208. Could you explain it more carefully?

  271. #271 Beamup
    April 13, 2011

    No, he can’t. Because even he has no clue what he’s saying.

  272. #272 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    As far as I can tell, he’s making an analogy, then treating his own analogy as literal truth. I don’t think Th1Th2 is capable of following basic logic.

  273. #273 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    Are you serious? Do you know what the death rate from measles was before modern medicine?

    I would assume they were not smart. And I mean smart to maintain a healthy living.

    If modern medicine only makes things worse, why hasn’t anybody noticed?

    Most people are not smart.

    Another thing. You were told, repeatedly, that IV use of typhoid was not a vaccine. Why do you keep insisting it is?

    That’s laughable. I assume you’re not that smart enough to even define the word vaccine.

  274. #274 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Do you know what a capillary is? Seriously?

    You should wait for Chris’ illustration. Maybe she’s still drawing her own.

  275. #275 wintermute
    April 13, 2011

    It’s because primary measles caused by natural infection is generally benign and uncomplicated. That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital).

    I guess it’s a shame that there are so few smart people who know how to take care of a sick child at home, then. Because a huge number of “natural” measles infections end in death, blindness, brain damage or other serious conditions. In fact, the odds of suffering these nasty side effects is far higher amongst children who are not hospitalised.

    I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

  276. #276 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 13, 2011

    I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

    I’m sure Thingy can – hot off the press from the 19th Century.

    If he/she/it could cut-and-paste stone tablets, we would receive a whole lot more.

  277. #277 Roadstergal
    April 13, 2011

    I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

    It will redefine ‘citation’ as ‘small toy found within my breakfast cereal’ and provide you with plenty.

  278. #278 Anton P. Nym
    April 13, 2011

    Wintermute, I think it’s time to give up with Thingy entirely… as I don’t think Thingy accepts the germ theory.

    The buzzword bingo from his/her posts make me think he subscribes to a more vitalist school for disease transmission, especially since he/she can’t seem to distinguish between weakened- and killed-vaccine in terms of virulence. (I’m blanking on the name of the school of thought I have in mind, the one that insists that bacilli are symptoms of rather than causes of disease.)

    It’s time to leave Thingy in the 19th century, I think, and restrict discussion to those who are living in the 21st.

    — Steve

  279. #279 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    Sorry, I only deal with science and math that pertains to Earth, not Htrae. On Earth between 80% to 90% of American children become immune to the wild measles virus due to the MMR vaccine.

    In the event they get re-exposed to the wild-type. That means, primary measles infection occurs when the naive child is initially and deliberately exposed to the measles virus vaccine or when the child contracts natural measles. The measles vaccine just created an alternative way to replace primary measles infection caused by wild-type measles virus.

    There was no reduction Chris instead there was propagation of the measles virus worldwide. For you being a casual fan of vaccination, I wouldn’t expect you to even understand basic immunology.

    That is why we no longer need to bury about one child per family, or send away children to institutions to rot after they became permanently disabled. Something that was common in the 19th century.

    They were not that smart.

    The fact that children have an actual chance of growing up is because of advances in medical treatment (antibiotics, ventilators), water and sewage treatment and vaccines. Not just one of those things, but all of those things.

    Despite all of those things, hospitals continue to multiply and disease categories continue to flourish. Is it because people are healthier now and not getting sick?

  280. #280 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    wintermute

    I guess it’s a shame that there are so few smart people who know how to take care of a sick child at home, then. Because a huge number of “natural” measles infections end in death, blindness, brain damage or other serious conditions. In fact, the odds of suffering these nasty side effects is far higher amongst children who are not hospitalised.I don’t suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?

    Go out and ask medical doctors on how they primarily treat measles. Not for their opinions but the accepted intervention.

  281. #281 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Despite all of those things, hospitals continue to multiply and disease categories continue to flourish. Is it because people are healthier now and not getting sick?

    So why is our local tuberculous sanitarium now the campus of a private school? Why has lifespan doubled since the 19th century? Do you think that the numbers of hospital beds might be related to the doubling of the American population in the last fifty years?

    What is the proportion of hospital beds to population?

    Don’t bother answering. Your answers are worthless. They are pulled out the convoluted folds of your anatomy that is attached to the chair seat, and filtered through some fantasy filled smokescreen.

    I’m done playing with this clown. I am utterly amazed that she has figured out how to turn on a computer and navigate to this page, because she is even more clueless than Little Augie. He is just a little sexist anti-science right wing troll who is merely stupid, but Thingy lives in her own fantasy world. It is even less consistent and more bizarre than Htrae.

  282. #282 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Anton,

    The buzzword bingo from his/her posts make me think he subscribes to a more vitalist school for disease transmission, especially since he/she can’t seem to distinguish between weakened- and killed-vaccine in terms of virulence.

    Well, the wild-type poliovirus, although so virulent, will not cause paralysis in more than 99% cases of poliomyelitis. Will that make me a germ-denialist? No.

    How about the iatrogenic paralysis caused by VAPP and VDPV? Will that make me a germ-denialist? Absolutely not.

    Now its your turn to answer.

  283. #283 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 13, 2011

    Th1Th2 – This statement appears ambiguous – could you clarify?

    …the wild-type poliovirus … will not cause paralysis in more than 99% cases of poliomyelitis.

    Does that mean that only 99% of polio cases result in paralysis or that less than 1% of polio cases result in paralysis. Do you have a statistic and source? Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis? What of excruciating pain – do you have a statistic on how often that is associated with polio?

  284. #284 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Chris,

    So why is our local tuberculous sanitarium now the campus of a private school? Why has lifespan doubled since the 19th century? Do you think that the numbers of hospital beds might be related to the doubling of the American population in the last fifty years?

    If there’s anything that has doubled is the abdominal girth. Why are these people still alive (no pun intended)? Of course, they are indispensable. If it makes dollars then it makes sense, doesn’t it?

  285. #285 JohnV
    April 13, 2011

    If I had any liquor, I would get drunk and see if that comment from Th1Th2 makes more sense that way.

  286. #286 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    JohnV, don’t count on it. She seems to have gone to the Insane Clown Posse School of Science and Logic.

  287. #287 Chris
    April 13, 2011

    JohnV, in her fantasy world 308 million is not more than twice 151 million.

  288. #288 LW
    April 13, 2011

    JohnV, I don’t think even drinking will help.

  289. #289 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    O’Brien,

    Does that mean that only 99% of polio cases result in paralysis or that less than 1% of polio cases result in paralysis.

    The latter. Should this be surprising?

    Do you have a statistic and source?

    You can use whatever source of information available to you at this moment. Don’t get too complicated, it won’t change the fact.

    Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis?

    It does not matter.

    What of excruciating pain – do you have a statistic on how often that is associated with polio?

    The 99% or the 1%? Please clarify.

  290. #290 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    You can use whatever source of information available to you at this moment. Don’t get too complicated, it won’t change the fact.

    Did it ever occur to you that you should back up your own statements? Laziness and arrogance do not do you any credit.

    Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis?

    It does not matter.

    Yes it does. Temporary paralysis and severe pain were much more common than permanent paralysis, so why aren’t those symptoms showing up either?

  291. #291 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 13, 2011

    Thanks – as I said, your original statement could be read two ways.

    According to Wikipedia, about 90% of Polio infections show no symptoms. According to the “prognosis” section of the same article, possible outcomes include full recovery, temporary paralysis, permanent paralysis, and death.

    About 3% of infections cause non-paralytic aseptic meningitis, with symptoms of headache, neck, back, abdominal and extremity pain, fever, vomiting, lethargy and irritability.

    Perhaps 1 in 200 are paralyzed.

  292. #292 Dedj
    April 13, 2011

    “Oh yeah? Below is what appears to be Chris’ infamous claim.

    Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.

    I know she is so humiliated to even recognize her own claim (self-rejection) that she won’t even bother discussing it. Too bad.”

    Chris’s claim is entirely correct by widely accepted clinical definitions. Yours is not.

    An IM injection is, by definition, not IM. Your attempts to falsely equate IM with IV because (to paraphrase) “It eventually gets there in the end”, is quite clearly dishonest, and – to make your stupidity clearer – you have successfully argued that IV effects are stronger than IM effects. Your character is so stupid and confused that we could leave it alone and it would argue itself into a corner six ways till sunday.

    Chris has not made the claim your character has indicated (indeed, no-one has thus far made any of the bizarre claims it has attributed to them) and has clearly indicated where your character has misunderstood.

    Your character has clearly decided to make a set of rather bizarre and clinically unsupportable claims. It has clearly decided that anyone who corrects the inaccuracies in its claims is somehow arguing for the exact opposite.

    Stop lying about people.
    Stop lying about people to other people who can read the primary source.
    Stop lying about not being a liar.
    Stop pretending you seriously hold the beliefs that you do.

  293. #293 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 13, 2011

    “An IM injection is, by definition, not IV.”

    Obvious typo is obvious.

  294. #294 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    Did it ever occur to you that you should back up your own statements? Laziness and arrogance do not do you any credit.

    You’re not going to quit getting embarrassed all the time, are you?

    From the CDC website.

    Most people infected with the polio virus have no symptoms, however for the less than 1% who develops paralysis it may result in permanent disability and even death.

    Yes it does. Temporary paralysis and severe pain were much more common than permanent paralysis, so why aren’t those symptoms showing up either?

    Well, it is still polio no matter what. Are you happy now or you want proof?

  295. #295 Lawrence
    April 13, 2011

    Please ignore the thing – she should be concentrating on her therapy in an attempt to regain at least some semblance of custody/contact with her child.

  296. #296 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Well, it is still polio no matter what. Are you happy now or you want proof?

    Yes, I need evidence. Even at 1% incidence of permanent paralysis, that still means that the vaccine would have caused thousands of cases of permanent paralysis, if your claims were true.

  297. #297 lilady
    April 13, 2011

    @ JohnV and LW: I’ve taken my prescribed ETOH per os preprandial “medication” and Thingy’s comments still do not make sense.

  298. #298 wintermute
    April 13, 2011

    If there’s anything that has doubled is the abdominal girth. Why are these people still alive (no pun intended)?

    Oooohhh! I know this one!

    It’s “modern medicine”, isn’t it?

  299. #299 Narad
    April 13, 2011

    The base “argument” is that babies are “born sterile” and remain so until they are “made filthy by inoculation.” One may as well contest with a triffid.

  300. #300 Sauceress
    April 13, 2011

    Late to the party…but in light of the constant “vaccines are injected directly into your child’s bloodstream” we see constantly from the anti-vaxx loons..

    #217 Dunning-Kruger Idjit

    Are you saying the vaccination needle never enters a highly vascularized body part like the deltoid muscle which has an abundant blood supply?

    Is it really trying to say vascularized tissue = vein?
    It’s trying to argue injection into vascularized tissue = intravenous injection? Seriously? HAHAHAHAHAHA..
    Th1Th2, can you say “I am desparately disingenuous”?

    I dug the following out of some of my old pharmacology notes… for Th1Th2’s ignorance.
    “Intramuscular injection: Drugs may be injected into the arm (deltoid), thigh (vastus lateralis) or buttocks (gluteus maximus). Because of differences in vascularity, the rates of absorption differ, with arm > thigh > buttocks.
    The volume of injection, osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption.

    To repeat..
    The volume of injection,osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption.

    Gee, I wonder if any of these factors would be taken into account during the formulation of vaccines and IM medications? Ya think?

    Then..#257

    Lastly, do you have any needle gauge smaller than tuberculin syringe so I can inject the PPD? I don’t want to hit those microscopic capillaries with the needle end you know.

    If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it…right? Right? A broken cappillary would be transporting blood from where to where? Or do you actually think that the bevels of the hyperdemics used to inject IM vaccines are small enough to actually enter into a capillary?

    #258 Chris

    Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

    Obviously not! I think you’ll need to type more slowly for Th1Th2 Chris.

    Th1Th2 would be one of the most extreme examples of the Dunning–Kruger effect I’ve ever come across. It’s anti-vaxx cohorts are going to need valium after all the cringing they’ll be experiencing if they happen to be reading it’s posts…well except for jen maybe.

  301. #301 Sauceress
    April 13, 2011

    p.s.
    Have emailed CBS.

  302. #302 Sauceress
    April 13, 2011

    edit..seeing as Th1Th2 appears to mistake semantics and pedantry
    for argument.
    “If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it…right?”

    I mean that capillary is no longer transporting blood through/ within the circulatory system…obviously.

  303. #303 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Sauceress,

    Because of differences in vascularity, the rates of absorption differ, with arm > thigh > buttocks.
    The volume of injection, osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption.”

    This is the problem with dyslexics, sure they can type but they don’t read and understand pretty well. Can you identify the first five words that you have quoted?

    If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it…right? Right? A broken cappillary would be transporting blood from where to where? Or do you actually think that the bevels of the hyperdemics used to inject IM vaccines are small enough to actually enter into a capillary?

    Good grief. What the hell are you talking about? Now, let me return the favor.

    Is it really trying to say vascularized tissue = capillaries?

    Haha.

  304. #304 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    Yes, I need evidence. Even at 1% incidence of permanent paralysis, that still means that the vaccine would have caused thousands of cases of permanent paralysis, if your claims were true.

    You don’t need further evidence Gray. You need to find your self. That’s why I was asking you if you are happy because there are naive children out there who never got paralyzed let alone infected with poliovirus from the vaccine or from natural infection. Just be happy for them.

  305. #305 dedicated lurker
    April 13, 2011

    there are naive children out there

    Who even post on this blog.

  306. #306 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    You don’t need further evidence Gray. You need to find your self. That’s why I was asking you if you are happy because there are naive children out there who never got paralyzed let alone infected with poliovirus from the vaccine or from natural infection. Just be happy for them.

    Yes, I need evidence. Without that, I wouldn’t have any science. You claimed the polio vaccine (always?) causes infection, and that paralysis occurs 1% of the time. I’m pretty sure that fact that millions were inoculated against polio, so where are all the cases I’m supposed to be seeing? Where?

  307. #307 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    I’m pretty sure that fact that millions were inoculated against polio, so where are all the cases I’m supposed to be seeing? Where?

    Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.

    1. Deny that this never happened.
    2. Remain a germ-denialist.

    My guess. Your guilty of both.

  308. #308 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    I’m guilty of misspelling. That should be You’re.

  309. #309 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.

    Th1Th2, did you know that one percent of a million is ten thousand? So if they were inoculated with polio, why aren’t there thousands of cases of paralysis resulting from polio vaccinations?

  310. #310 Narad
    April 13, 2011

    Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.

    1. Deny that this never [sic] happened. BOW TO MY WILL.
    2. Remain a germ-denialist. Ignore me.

  311. #311 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    Th1Th2, did you know that one percent of a million is ten thousand? So if they were inoculated with polio, why aren’t there thousands of cases of paralysis resulting from polio vaccinations?

    It’s because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.

  312. #312 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    It’s because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.

    Finally, you’re starting to learn! The live-virus version did cause infections, but not as severe as the real disease. We already know this, you did nothing groundbreaking by telling us that.

  313. #313 Th1Th2
    April 13, 2011

    Gray,

    Finally, you’re starting to learn! The live-virus version did cause infections, but not as severe as the real disease. We already know this, you did nothing groundbreaking by telling us that.

    Or that the OPV did nothing to prevent poliomyelitis instead it became the alternative and dominant source of infectious poliovirus to date.

    BTW, what’s so severe about asymptomatic poliomyelitis caused by the wild-type virus in more than 95% of polio cases?

    You’re mercurial Gray. Your germ-denialism and germ-loving nature occur at the same time. Didn’t you notice that? Tell me next time which side are you in. OK?

  314. #314 Gray Falcon
    April 13, 2011

    Or that the OPV did nothing to prevent poliomyelitis instead it became the alternative and dominant source of infectious poliovirus to date.

    Do you have any evidence that poliomyelitis infections are running rampant? Base assertion is not enough.

    BTW, what’s so severe about asymptomatic poliomyelitis caused by the wild-type virus in more than 95% of polio cases?

    Nothing, but what about the other 5% of the cases? If I stabbed you, could I get off by saying I only murdered 1 in 300,000,000 of the US’ population?

    You’re mercurial Gray. Your germ-denialism and germ-loving nature occur at the same time. Didn’t you notice that? Tell me next time which side are you in. OK?

    That’s only because you’re trying to use your own definitions “germ theory” and “germ denialism”. The fact that they contradict so easily suggests that maybe the problem is with your definitions.

  315. #315 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Gray,

    Do you have any evidence that poliomyelitis infections are running rampant? Base assertion is not enough.

    What’s going on here? Are you having transient amnesia?
    You just told me the truth:

    The live-virus version did cause infections,[…]

    Nothing, but what about the other 5% of the cases? If I stabbed you, could I get off by saying I only murdered 1 in 300,000,000 of the US’ population?

    That’s only because you’re trying to use your own definitions “germ theory” and “germ denialism”. The fact that they contradict so easily suggests that maybe the problem is with your definitions.

    Your biphasic nature is so obvious. As a germ-lover you will praise the vaccine-type virus because it causes a not- so-severe infection but when the vaccine leads to paralysis you instantaneously become a germ-denialist.

    Not good.

  316. #316 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    Your biphasic nature is so obvious. As a germ-lover you will praise the vaccine-type virus because it causes a not- so-severe infection but when the vaccine leads to paralysis you instantaneously become a germ-denialist.

    The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as true polio. You yourself admitted that the vaccine strain is weaker in comment 307! Try to understand the basics. First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.

  317. #317 snerd
    April 14, 2011

    First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.

    You know who else said that? HITLER.

  318. #318 lilady
    April 14, 2011

    Thingy: We want statistics about paralytic polio caused by vaccine in the United States. How about providing us with actual reports of cases of paralytic polio in the United States in the last ten years? Prove to us that your statements are based in fact.

  319. #319 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Gray,

    The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as true polio.

    There you go. There’s the germ-denialism again. So you would never call it true polio unless the infected person becomes paralytic, would you?

    You yourself admitted that the vaccine strain is weaker in comment 307! Try to understand the basics. First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.

    That’s because there are non-paralytic types of poliomyelitis caused by either wild-type or vaccine-type virus. If you want to refute this then you have to be a germ-denialist, that is, you have to deny asymptomatic, abortive and non-paralytic poliomyelitis.

  320. #320 CG
    April 14, 2011

    Except the OPV strains are severely attenuated and rarely are able to infect another person.

    Not to mention many countries, like the US, use the IPV, which isn’t even a live virus. But then Thing thinks proteins alone can cause infections.

  321. #321 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    There you go. There’s the germ-denialism again. So you would never call it true polio unless the infected person becomes paralytic, would you?

    Did you even bother to read the comment? All I have to do is make a small change: The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as wild-type polio.

    That’s because there are non-paralytic types of poliomyelitis caused by either wild-type or vaccine-type virus. If you want to refute this then you have to be a germ-denialist, that is, you have to deny asymptomatic, abortive and non-paralytic poliomyelitis.

    I know those exist. What I don’t know is why you think they’re still occurring. Do you have any evidence that this is happening? At all? Don’t just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.

  322. #322 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    Gray Falcon:

    Did you even bother to read the comment?

    In the tortured warped fantasy world of Th1Th2 the words enter her eyes, go through a screen that is similar to the funky carnival mirror and turned into some strange manifestation of bizarro reality. As I said, a tour in her mind would be a carnival fun house ride.

    What is freakier than the Twilight Zone? Well, it would be Th1Th2. If we were to take some of her more common quotes, we’d find the ingredients of one of those episodes that had a very unhappy ending.

  323. #323 herr doktor bimler
    April 14, 2011

    313: You know who else said that?

    You know who else expressed mystical, single-cause theories of disease and impurity in German?

  324. #324 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    herr dokter bimler, was that German fellow around before some Italian guy called Avogadro?

  325. #325 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    Gray Falcon:

    Don’t just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.

    Remember, you are dealing with a person who lives in a fantasy world. There is only her version of the world, the rest is not part of her “reality.” It is a a construct that lives only in her fun house mind as a very warped version of solipsism.

  326. #326 dt
    April 14, 2011

    Thing (#307)

    It’s because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.

    Just for a brief moment, I felt an unfamiliar warm glow within. Was there truly a dawn of enlightenment close at hand? Were we about to witness the gradual fruition of all our patient efforts? Like caring parents trying to help a child learn to ride a bike, we have poured our advice and encouragment into each and every attempt we witness, running beside our excited infant as he pedalled furiously in his attempts to succeed. Oh how we hoped that one day, something would somehow suddenly click, and before our proud and misted eyes, our previously helpless protogee would be up and cycling, shouting out loud with glee and wonderment at his newly gained skills, and desperately yearning to go faster and further.

    Alas it was not to be. Our premature expectations were dashed into tiny fragments like a smashed vaccine vial under the boot of an AoA goon; our crushed hopes borne away like millions of scattered petals on the frothy, germ laden waters of the Ganges. The disappointment was palpable, and the hollow sensation of emptiness gripping our chests was vice-like in its unremitting intensity.

    Sadly the realisation struck home. Never would we succeed, and all our efforts were in vain (though never in vein)

  327. #327 Gayl Hamilton, MD
    April 14, 2011

    An answer to some of my critics from yesterday regarding the danger of a “vaccine preventable disease” vs the danger of the vaccine.

    INCIDENCE OF COMPLICATIONS FROM NATURAL PERTUSSIS INFECTION
    (VS) COMPLICATIONS FROM DtAP VACCINATION
    (all stats are for the US population and based on yearly incidence)

    (from Emedicine article)
    Mortality rate in the US currently in hospitalized patients is about 1 in 500 (0.2%)
    There were approximately 25,000 cases of pertussis in 2005, and 16 deaths (couldn’t find age breakdown), so overall death rate from the disease is about 0.06%, or 1 death per 1500 cases.
    There were approximately 300 million people in the US in 2005. That is 1 death from pertussis per 18 million people (incidence 0.000005%) and 1 case of pertussis per 12,000 people (incidence 0.008%)
    Infants and children 1 to 4 years old comprised 25% of the cases, or 6,250.
    Infants less than 12 months old comprised 16% of the cases, or 4,000.

    History of pertussis in the United States
    Peak incidence of pertussis infection occurred in 1934, with about 270,000 cases.
    There were 10,000 deaths so overall death rate from disease was 4%, or 1 death per 27 cases.
    The population was about 126,000,000, making the incidence about 0.2%, or 1 in 466 people. There was a total of 1 death from disease for every 12,600 people, or (0.007%).

    The peak death rate from pertussis occurred in 1923 with 9,000 deaths and 166,000 cases (5.5% death rate, or 1 death for every 18 cases). US population was about 111,000,000 people, with 1 pertussis death per 12000 people (0.008%) and 1 case of pertussis for every 670 people (0.1%)

    Serious sequelae of natural infection
    Using the 2005 incidence data
    10 to 25% of children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, worst case scenario would be about 1500 cases
    1 to 2% of infants will have seizures, or 40 to 80 cases
    Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified), or about 6 cases

    Data regarding Daptacel (DTaP) taken from the manufacturer’s insert:
    Reactions tend to increase with repeated doses.
    One of the safety studies was done on 1454 children (US) who received their 4th dose of vaccine (so, probably around 15 to 18 months old).
    They found that 27 (1.9%) were diagnosed with bronchiolitis within 30 days
    4 (0.3%) had a seizure within 60 days
    2 (0.12%) developed meningitis
    3 (0.2%) developed pneumonia
    1 (0.07%) developed sepsis
    1 (0.07%) developed pertussis
    1 (0.07%) became unresponsive

    Other numbers from looking at reactions up to 3 days following administration of doses 1 through 5:
    Fever greater than 101 F occurs in up to 4.8% (almost 1 in 20)
    Lethargy up to 50% (1 out of 2 kids), moderate to severe up to 23% (just about 1 out of 4)
    Inconsolable crying, up to 58% (1 in 2)
    Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% (1 in 30)
    Fussiness and irritability, “moderate”, up to 28% ( 1 in 4)
    “Severe”, up to 5% (1 in 20)
    Vomiting occurs in up to 9% (1 in 8)

    Let’s imagine this scenario:

    It’s the year 2010 and there are approximately 21 million kids under the age of 5 in the US.
    Using the rate of infection of pertussis at it’s peak (0.2%) and death rate from illness from 2005, (0.06%), and assuming the age breakdown is similar to that in 2005, (26% in children under the age of 5) serious health sequelae after natural infection, the number of complications among this group would look like follows:

    The total population of the US will be around 310 million, so there would be around 620,000 cases of pertussis (1 in 500 people), and a total of 372 deaths (1 in 800,000 cases)

    161,000 children under the age of 4 will be affected (again couldn’t find break down of death stats)
    Of these affected children:

    10 to 25% children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, (16,000 to 40, 000 cases)
    1 to 2% infants will have seizures (1600 to 3200) cases
    Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified, so lets use the definition of encephalitis (brain inflammation) – or about 161 cases (1 in 1000).

    Signs and Symptoms of Encephalitis:
    Symptoms in milder cases of encephalitis usually include:
    fever
    headache
    poor appetite
    loss of energy
    a general sick feeling
    In more severe cases of encephalitis, a person is more likely to experience high fever and any of a number of symptoms that relate to the central nervous system, including:
    severe headache
    nausea and vomiting
    stiff neck
    confusion
    disorientation
    personality changes
    convulsions (seizures)
    problems with speech or hearing
    hallucinations
    memory loss
    drowsiness
    coma

    It’s more difficult to tell in infants, but vomiting, a full or bulging soft spot (fontanel), crying that doesn’t stop or that seems worse when an infant is picked up or handled in some way, and body stiffness are clues.
    (Now go back and look at the reactions listed for Daptacel….)

    Now, fortunately (?), the above scenario is highly unlikely due to high rates of immunization. Lets see what would happen if we estimate that about half of the total child population will be less than 2 years old, and receive 4 DTaPs over the year – that would be about 10 million kids, and 30 million doses given.
    Back to the serious adverse events numbers:
    1.9% incidence of bronchiolitis, or 570,000 cases of bronchiolitis
    0.3% incidence of seizures, or 90, 000 seizures
    0.2% incidence of pneumonia, or 60,000 cases
    0.12% incidence of meningitis, or 36,000 cases
    0.07% incidence of sepsis, unresponsiveness, and pertussis or 21,000 cases of each

    This adds up to approximately 777,000 cases of serious adverse reactions from the vaccine just in the population of children 2 and under (vs) 161,000 POSSIBLE cases of pertussis in children under 4.

    And the common, “not so serious reactions”, that are curiously similar to those of encephalitis:
    Up to 50% lethargy, 15 million cases, moderate to severe up to 23%, or 7 million cases
    58% incidence inconsolable crying, more than 15 million
    Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% or 1 million cases
    Up to 28% incidence of “moderate”, fussiness and irritability, or 8 million cases,
    Up to 5%“Severe”, or 1.5 million cases
    Up to 9% incidence of vomiting, or 2.7 million cases
    4.8% incidence of fever greater than 101, or 1.4 million cases
    .04% incidence fever greater than 104, or 12,000 cases

    (Taken from a Mayo Clinic patient ed handout)
    Severe viral encephalitis can cause:
     Seizures
     Respiratory arrest
     Coma
     Death
    In those who’ve had severe encephalitis, some problems may last for a year or more, including:
     Fatigue
     Weakness
     Depression
     Personality changes
     Gait problems
     Memory difficulties
    Some complications may be permanent, such as memory loss, the inability to speak coherently, lack of muscle coordination, paralysis, or hearing or vision defects.

  328. #328 Gayl Hamilton, MD
    April 14, 2011

    I find it quite interesting that some responders to my post (#238) resort to personal attacks and insults as a method of reply….seriously??? That is not part of the art of debate.
    Grow up!

  329. #329 lilady
    April 14, 2011

    We questioned Thingy about Intravenous vaccines and thoroughly bitch-slapped its theories about routes of administration of vaccines.

    Now Thingy attempts to tell us about VAPP (Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio). I posed some questions (at # 318 above) about VAPP cases in the United States in the last ten years and Thingy couldn’t produce any statistics.

    Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) has not been used in the United States since 2000, when Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) was recommended and used exclusively, for primary series and completion of polio series immunizations.

    The last VAPP case infected/acquired in the United States was reported in 1999. In 2005, an unvaccinated resident of the United States was confirmed to have VAPP. The resident was infected/acquired VAPP while traveling in Costa Rica.

  330. #330 Beamup
    April 14, 2011

    Gayl: I see one response that could somewhat credibly be termed a “personal attack.” Mostly you got asked very reasonable questions and received several requests that you provide evidence to back up your claims.

    But naturally, you focus on the former and completely refuse to even acknowledge the latter. I suspect that this is because you realize you don’t HAVE any evidence. Though I do wonder why, if you knew that, you made the claims in the first place.

  331. #331 JayK
    April 14, 2011

    The first 10 responses to Gayl are all requesting citations or examining the claims made in #238. I myself pointed out that Gayl used the pharma-shill gambit. I note that instead of replying to the overwhelming call for citations and proof of claims, Gayl has decided to play persecuted poopypants and accuse others of juvenile tactics.

    Welcome to the internet, Gayl, would you like some cheese with your whine or would you like to respond to the 10 different posters (at least) that requested you actually use citations?

  332. #332 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    Dr. Hamillton:

    Grow up!

    Is this how you react to colleagues who request evidence for on how you treat a patient?

    Please provide the evidence for your statements in your first comment. I have been waiting for the answers to my questions from some qualified healthcare provider for a very long time. I am disappointed that you are not going to accommodate my request.

  333. #333 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    CG,

    Except the OPV strains are severely attenuated and rarely are able to infect another person.

    Nah. The rarity of host-to-host transmission is not characteristic of OPV. In fact, the goal of OPV administration after infecting its recipient is to shed the infectious virus and transmit it to contacts thereby establishing the chain of infection. What’s something rare is that naive children rarely avoid and escape being infected by the vaccine virus where OPV is available. They are always the first recipient of the infectious poliovirus. Not good.

    Not to mention many countries, like the US, use the IPV, which isn’t even a live virus. But then Thing thinks proteins alone can cause infections.

    Killed microorganisms like the IPV, if left alone at the mucosal surface, cannot cause infection because they will be repelled by the innate barrier. So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote infection. Unlike its Big Bro OPV, the IPV is more personal and selfish. It won’t share the virus to others. Who cares when everyone else gets inoculated.

  334. #334 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 14, 2011

    Hi Gayl! Welcome back!

    Got those citations?

  335. #335 augustine
    April 14, 2011

    Chris

    Please provide the evidence for your statements in your first comment. I have been waiting for the answers to my questions from some qualified healthcare provider for a very long time. I am disappointed that you are not going to accommodate my request.

    Chis, why do you believe that it is scientifically plausible that a person can be trapped and born into the wrong body? Please provide scientific evidence for your beliefs. You keep avoiding this question. I thought your opinions were all science based medicine opinions and that your logic was of sound mind.

    Do you have physiology related beliefs that are based in science? Are they rooted in political correctness and personal philosophy instead?

    I think you know the answer. You know I know the answer. That is why you won’t answer it. Don’t give me the killfile excuse because I know you read my posts. I have evidence of your “non-reading” replies.

  336. #336 CG
    April 14, 2011

    So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote infection.

    Thingy is trying to change the definition of infection, again.

    Infection requires replication, something a dead organism cannot do. Stimulating an immune response without infection is the entire point of a killed vaccine.

  337. #337 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    Some questions:
    Th1Th2, you admitted that the OPV only rarely causes paralysis, but do you r realize how severely that undercuts your own argument? Is the live polio vaccine less dangerous than wild-type polio or not?
    Gayl Hamilton, you were asked repeatedly for citations. Why are you only responding to a few scattered insults? Are you really that petty?
    Augustine, do you really think talk like that has a place in adult conversation?

  338. #338 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Gray,

    Did you even bother to read the comment? All I have to do is make a small change: The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as wild-type polio.

    All I see is your persistent shifting between germ-loving and germ-denialism. But didn’t you notice that either way, you’re still promoting poliovirus and the disease itself?

    I know those exist. What I don’t know is why you think they’re still occurring. Do you have any evidence that this is happening? At all? Don’t just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.

    You said:

    The live-virus version did cause infections,[…]

    So what are you trying to deny now? Or you’re asking how many were infected by the live-virus version?

  339. #339 JohnV
    April 14, 2011

    @Dr. Hamilton

    “I find it quite interesting that some responders to my post (#238) resort to personal attacks and insults as a method of reply….seriously??? That is not part of the art of debate.
    Grow up!”

    So the art of debate is telling people to not resort to personal attacks and insults but to tell people to grow up?

    Understood.

  340. #340 Anton P. Nym
    April 14, 2011

    Killed microorganisms like the IPV, if left alone at the mucosal surface, cannot cause infection because they will be repelled by the innate barrier. So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote infection antibody production and natural immune response.

    Fixed that for you, Thingy.

    I will admit I was wrong to assume you favoured vitalist theories of disease, but now I see how I made the mistake; you instead seem to harbour ideas of abiogenic disease transmission that just aren’t supported by modern science. (Well, maybe prions behave the way you think bacteria and virii do… but I’d have to ask someone with a lot more knowledge in that field to comment on that.)

    I will state, simply, that germs become dangerous because they reproduce… and the killed virii in IPV don’t reproduce.

    — Steve

  341. #341 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    dt,

    […]and desperately yearning to go faster and further.

    And that’s exactly what happened to OPV. It reverted to neurovirulence and spawned to a new monster called VDPV.

  342. #342 Anton P. Nym
    April 14, 2011

    Dammit, scienceblogs killed my strikeouts. Instead, please use the following blockquote in my previous comment:

    Killed microorganisms like the IPV cannot cause infection. So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote antibody production and natural immune response.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    — Steve

  343. #343 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 14, 2011

    Maybe Gayl Hamilton MD thinks that requests for citations are personal attacks. After all, we’re not just taking her assertions at her word. We’re demanding evidence! We don’t trust her! We think she could be wrong! Or lying!

    How awful of us.

  344. #344 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    All I see is your persistent shifting between germ-loving and germ-denialism. But didn’t you notice that either way, you’re still promoting poliovirus and the disease itself?

    Actually, the only one being inconsistent here is you. When I asked why the vaccine didn’t cause as much damage as the wild disease, you responded:

    It’s because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.

    So, is the OPV worse than the wild-type or not?

    So what are you trying to deny now? Or you’re asking how many were infected by the live-virus version?

    You’re the one who stated that the live-virus version is still out there infecting people. My claim was that it did infect people, but it was not virulent enough to spread as badly as wild-type polio. I just want evidence for your claim.

  345. #345 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    CG,

    Thingy is trying to change the definition of infection, again. Infection requires replication, something a dead organism cannot do. Stimulating an immune response without infection is the entire point of a killed vaccine.

    No, I’m telling you the sequence. A successful infection must be established before any replication could take place. Like the OPV, the poliovirus must first infect and then replicate in the gut. However, the IPV and other killed microorganisms are incapable of infecting the mucosa let alone the underlying tissues like the muscles, they have to be injected to establish an infection site which then triggers an immune response. And since they are non-replicating, the IPV is restricted to the host therefore does not promote further transmission.

  346. #346 CG
    April 14, 2011

    they have to be injected to establish an infection site which then triggers an immune response.

    Wrong.

    They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can’t even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.

  347. #347 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Gray,

    Th1Th2, you admitted that the OPV only rarely causes paralysis, but do you r realize how severely that undercuts your own argument? Is the live polio vaccine less dangerous than wild-type polio or not?

    You don’t get it, do you? I am antivaccine because I do not promote vaccines the same way I am also anti-pox because I don’t promote nonsense exposure to natural infection. I advocate infection control by cutting the chain of transmission and now you want me to promote the lesser of the two evils? So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape? Ask your doctor about it.

  348. #348 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 14, 2011

    Wrong, Th1Th2. The correct sequence is:

    A successful invasion must be established before replication can take place. Once replication takes place, an infection has occurred. Invasion, replication, then and only then do you have an infection.

  349. #349 Beamup
    April 14, 2011

    They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can’t even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.

    Ah, but you see, in Thingish any sort of reaction to anything related to a virus qualifies as an “infection” with the virus.

    Seriously. You’d have better luck talking with your dining room table; it’s a lot smarter.

  350. #350 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    I advocate infection control by cutting the chain of transmission and now you want me to promote the lesser of the two evils?

    Th1Th2, how do you propose to do that? Earlier, you had said “That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital).” What does a smart person do that generations before hadn’t? What’s your alternative? And by the way, if it’s unworkable, then yes, we do have to take the lesser of two evils. Driving defensively can slow traffic, but it’s still better than accidents.

  351. #351 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Anton,

    To intentionally promote antibody production and natural immune response.

    That will eventually happen following a successful infection of the host. So why is the IPV not given per orem?

  352. #352 Yojimbo
    April 14, 2011

    After long observation I think I finally understand Th1Th2. Rather than vaccination, the way to avoid disease is not get infected! Its so simple, why has nobody thought of it before?

  353. #353 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    Th1Th2,

    That will eventually happen following a successful infection of the host.

    That will also happen without an infection. For example, most allergens don’t infect people, but they create an immune reaction.

    So why is the IPV not given per orem?

    So that it won’t be destroyed by the digestive process.

  354. #354 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund,

    A successful invasion must be established before replication can take place. Once replication takes place, an infection has occurred. Invasion, replication, then and only then do you have an infection.

    No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, that is introduced in the body is infection.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    Hence, you cannot establish the VZV vaccine at the mucosal surface because they will be eliminated. In order to successfully infect the host, the vaccine must invade the deep subcutaneous tissues and you know how the vaccine is administered.

  355. #355 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    CG,

    They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can’t even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.

    None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.

  356. #356 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.

    That may be true, but things can still get past the first layer. You are aware of that, aren’t you?

  357. #357 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund,

    A successful invasion must be established before replication can take place. Once replication takes place, an infection has occurred. Invasion, replication, then and only then do you have an infection.

    Wrong. Any pathogen, replicating or not, which is introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialists will deny this.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    Which is why the VZV vaccine will be more successful in causing infection by invading the deep subcutaneous tissues rather than being cleared at the mucosal surface. And you know how this vaccine is administered right?

  358. #358 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Surprisingly, my comments are being cleared at the mucosa.

    Maybe it’s time to vaccinate instead.

  359. #359 Heliantus
    April 14, 2011

    So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape?

    Ah, again with your inaccurate metaphors.
    Vaccination is actually more like self-defense teaching. Someone pretends to assault you and you learn some defensive moves. Later on, if you are attacked for real, maybe you will have a better chance of escaping unharmed. Or less harmed.
    (and yes, the best defense is to run away, but it’s not always feasible)
    Also, please notice that, like vaccinations, attending a self-defense training is not without risks of injuries (been there, done that…). But it’s less risky than the real thing.

  360. #360 CG
    April 14, 2011

    None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.

    Which would accomplish absolutely nothing. The wild type virus, with all its functioning proteins that it uses to get through the innate immune system, would still be able to infect (real infection, not Thingy’s “infection”) that person.

  361. #361 Josephine Jones
    April 14, 2011

    Although I am from the UK, I feel strongly about this and have therefore signed, tweeted and emailed. I have also pasted the email into my blog (http://josephinejones.wordpress.com/) and invite anyone to plagiarise it.

    I only started blogging in the last month so have virtually no readers. Therefore couldn’t help engaging with an antivax guy who commented (who also says he has a biology degree), ended up spending more time on this than the original complaint. Brilliant takedown by Mike – “is this the same Tony that also graduated in astrophysics, yet believes the Earth is flat?”

  362. #362 Sauceress
    April 14, 2011

    #353

    None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.

    What do you mean by
    “mucosal level”? and “eliminated ny non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system”?

    Perhaps you are referring to MALT?

    A second compartment of the adaptive immune system of equal size to this, and located near the surfaces where most pathogens invade, is the mucosal immune system (commonly described by the acronym MALT).

  363. #363 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 14, 2011

    So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don’t worry it’s less dangerous than rape?

    Sexual harassment prevents rape? Who knew?

  364. #364 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    That sexual harassment bit goes to further show that Th1Th2 lives in a very special world of fantasy, one that is even more bizarre than Htrae. Add that bit to one of the scary surprises in her special mind freak funhouse ride.

  365. #365 LW
    April 14, 2011

    I feel a bit sorry for Th1Th2. Its repeated imagery of the forcible defilement of the bodies of naive children and its repeated invocation of sexual harassment and rape in this inappropriate context suggests something quite sad about its childhood.

  366. #366 Lawrence
    April 14, 2011

    So thingy – any luck getting custody back of your kid?

  367. #367 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    LW, which is exactly why I fear for any child in her care.

  368. #368 Narad
    April 14, 2011

    Is there actually any reason to suspect that Th1Th2 has ever gotten near a procreative situation? I mean, the obsession with inoculation, infection, and filth doesn’t seem promising.

  369. #369 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    Narad pointed to a user on sMothering that was much like Th1Th2, it seemed to indicate she had an infant. Here is a useful Google. (you can also use INF-ss)

  370. #370 Chris
    April 14, 2011

    The MFC thread you hinted at seems to indicate so. Though it may have just been her trolling.

  371. #371 Narad
    April 14, 2011

    Oh, man, my own petard. I’ll have to go reread them.

  372. #372 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Sauceress,

    What do you mean by
    “mucosal level”? and “eliminated ny non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system”?
    Perhaps you are referring to MALT?
    A second compartment of the adaptive immune system of equal size to this, and located near the surfaces where most pathogens invade, is the mucosal immune system (commonly described by the acronym MALT).

    No. I was referring to mucous membranes that serve as a physical barrier against pathogens. They also contain non-specific chemicals produced by the body including the innate non-specific IgA that prevents the entry of pathogenic microorganisms.

    The MALT lies beneath the mucous membranes. If there is a breach in the integrity of the skin and the mucosal surface, the MALT will initiate the adaptive mechanism against invading pathogens.

  373. #373 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    CG,

    Which would accomplish absolutely nothing.

    That would be great. It means no infection.

    The wild type virus, with all its functioning proteins that it uses to get through the innate immune system, would still be able to infect (real infection, not Thingy’s “infection”) that person.

    And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system and infect the deep tissues. I wonder why. Haha.

  374. #374 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system and infect the deep tissues. I wonder why. Haha.

    Do you have any evidence a real infection is taking place? Your assertions aren’t enough, anyone can make claims, but without decisive evidence, they are meaningless.

  375. #375 Th1Th2
    April 14, 2011

    Heliantus,

    Vaccination is actually more like self-defense teaching.

    Really? How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body when you couldn’t even defend yourself against dead microorganisms? Some self-defense.

  376. #376 Gray Falcon
    April 14, 2011

    How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body when you couldn’t even defend yourself against dead microorganisms?

    Th1Th2, if the human body couldn’t defend itself against dead microorganisms, we’d all be dead now. And don’t talk about how vaccines are “injected into the body”, people get cuts and scrapes all the time. So tell me, why are we all still alive?

  377. #377 Heliantus
    April 15, 2011

    How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body

    The same way they defend themselves against wild pathogens, only better: attenuated viruses from live vaccines are notorious for having reduced pathogenic capabilities. That’s what they have been designed for.
    Dead microorganisms are even easier, they don’t fight back.

    when you couldn’t even defend yourself against dead microorganisms?

    I have no trouble defending myself against dead micro-organisms, it’s the live ones which are worrying me. How could a dead bug do anything to anyone? It’s dead.
    Are you talking about zombie microorganisms?

  378. #378 augustine
    April 15, 2011

    Hellacious

    How could a dead bug do anything to anyone?

    If it were laying on the concrete it couldn’t.

  379. #379 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    Gray/Heliantus,

    Th1Th2, if the human body couldn’t defend itself against dead microorganisms, we’d all be dead now.

    I have no trouble defending myself against dead micro-organisms,[…]. How could a dead bug do anything to anyone? It’s dead.
    Are you talking about zombie microorganisms?

    I was pertaining to dead microorganisms in the vaccine. It should be on the top of your lists. Are you guys going to deny again?

  380. #380 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 15, 2011

    And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system…

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    …and infect the deep tissues.

    No, they can’t. They’re dead. They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection. You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

  381. #381 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    Heliantus,

    The same way they defend themselves against wild pathogens, only better: attenuated viruses from live vaccines are notorious for having reduced pathogenic capabilities.

    How? By inviting them?

  382. #382 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund,

    No, they can’t. They’re dead.

    You just said they can.

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

    There are infections that do not require replication.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

    Not even close.

  383. #383 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    WKV,

    No, they can’t. They’re dead.

    You just said they can.

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

    There are infections that do not require replication.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

    Not even close.

  384. #384 CG
    April 15, 2011

    Just when I thought Thingy could not say anything stupider.

    That would be great. It means no infection.

    Except the vaccine wouldn’t induce immunity and they would still get sick when exposed to the virus, which completely defeats the point of vaccinating.

    And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system and infect the deep tissues

    Once again you attempt to redefine words. A dead microorganism cannot infect anything, ever.

    Thingy is clearly far, far beyond reason.

  385. #385 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    Gray,

    You’re the one who stated that the live-virus version is still out there infecting people. My claim was that it did infect people, but it was not virulent enough to spread as badly as wild-type polio. I just want evidence for your claim.

    Same as yours.

  386. #386 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    To whom it may concern:

    No, they can’t. They’re dead.

    You just said they can.

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

    No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body by breaching the innate system is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

    Not even close.

  387. #387 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    For the umpteenth time,

    Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.

    That’s one hell of anti-Th1Th2 Ab right there.

  388. #388 Chris
    April 15, 2011

    CG:

    Thingy is clearly far, far beyond reason.

    This should be no surprise. She thinks toddlers know to stay on sidewalks and not play in the dirt!

  389. #389 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    No, they can’t. They’re dead.

    You just said they can.

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

    No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

    Not even close.

  390. #390 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    CG/WKV

    No, they can’t. They’re dead.

    You just said they can.

    Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.

    They can’t replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection.

    No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    You’re making a claim equivalent to “necrophiliacs impregnate dead women.”

    Not even close.

  391. #391 Militant Agnostic
    April 15, 2011

    I have defined Thingy as furniture. It may now be sold or otherwise disposed of. Since Thingy is now furniture, anyone continuing to argue with it is now defined as insane. With luck, it may go away.

  392. #392 Heliantus
    April 15, 2011

    @ Militant Agnostic

    I have defined Thingy as furniture

    That’s an insult to furnitures. I had better conversations with my dinner table (or was it about it? Someone just redefined the meaning of dead/alive, I’m a bit confused).

  393. #393 Heliantus
    April 15, 2011

    Oh, and in case any passerby wonders about censorship on this blog:

    When your post has more than two links, or contains some specific keywords (like you are a Nigerian prince with a million dollars to give away), your comment will be automatically held in moderation limbo, pending the blog’s author review and approval.
    If you post many comments in a short time, or very late at night, it will trigger the automatic ‘comment received and held for approval’, too.
    Eventually the author will wake up (even a shiny box of light needs to sleep), come around his blog and approve your posts.

    No need for paranoia.

  394. #394 Beamup
    April 15, 2011

    My dinner table says as many meaningful things as the Thing, and spouts a lot less nonsense. So yeah, greatly superior.

  395. #395 CG
    April 15, 2011

    Varicella-zoster and herpes simplex viruses are both highly neurotropic, establishing nonreplicating infections in sensory ganglia.

    How long did it take you to come up with this very idiotic excuse?

    A latent herpesvirus is not dead. It is still expressing genes and is quite capable of going lytic and replicating.

    On the other hand, a dead virus isn’t going to spring to life and start replicating.

  396. #396 JayK
    April 15, 2011

    It appears that Gayl Hamilton’s “citation” post was held up in moderation, because it is basically a very long copy paste.

    In order to be fair to Gayl, I’ll attempt a respectful response: Take your scary numbers and shove off. A citation usually is a simple matter of citing the study or site where one can view the data independent of your attempts to make them look worse. In fact, I see a few places where fake math has been used to make the numbers look worse, basically multiplying the percentages by 3 without verification of that method (it isn’t valid, btw).

    What you are doing is intentionally misrepresenting the statistics in a post-vaccination environment to scare people, while keeping them ignorant of the dangers of diseases for which a vaccine exists. You’re playing the same dishonest and dangerous game as AoA or NVIC.

    I also did some work looking for any papers in which you might have authored. I assumed the titles would be something like “The efficacy of prayer in healing polio”. Can you let us all know when that will be published?

  397. #397 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    CG,

    On the other hand, a dead virus isn’t going to spring to life and start replicating.

    Check #345. It’s all about the sequence. Infection precedes replication. So a dead virus can only infect but not replicate.

  398. #398 Anton P. Nym
    April 15, 2011

    Thingy, to no one’s surprise, has a rather non-standard definition of “infection”. To (her?) it seems to be any intrusion of foreign material into the tissues… which explains a lot of the objection to killed-virus vaccines impurifying our precious bodily fluids.

    Meanwhile, I (and most other folks here I suspect) are using the following medical definition:

    infection /in·fec·tion/ (-fek´shun)
    1. invasion and multiplication of microorganisms in body tissues, especially that causing local cellular injury due to competitive metabolism, toxins, intracellular replication, or antigen-antibody response.
    2. an infectious disease.
    Free Dictionary

    (emphasis mine)

    Without replication (or the possibility of replication, in the case of dormant infections like herpes and shingles) there is no infection. And a killed virus vaccine can never replicate. That’s why it’s called “killed”.

    IPV does not infect tissue, because it’s dead and the dead don’t reproduce. (Sorry, Mr. Romero.)

    (In before someone else coins the term “microzombies”! Gnaar… braaaaains…)

    — Steve

  399. #399 Gray Falcon
    April 15, 2011

    Once again, Th1Th2 assumes that asserting a statement is all that is required to prove it. He still hasn’t answered why, if the human body is so susceptible to infection, we aren’t all dead from minor cuts and scrapes.

  400. #400 CG
    April 15, 2011

    Infection precedes replication. So a dead virus can only infect but not replicate.

    Actually that’s still wrong, there’s more to infection than viral entry, but I’m going to ignore that for a second because it’s still irrelevant.

    The dead viruses contained in a vaccine cannot even enter cells. Their proteins are misfolded and damaged.

  401. #401 Chris
    April 15, 2011

    JayK:

    It appears that Gayl Hamilton’s “citation” post was held up in moderation, because it is basically a very long copy paste.

    … Using “data” from a “cover your ass” lawyer written package insert, which is not a scientific cite. It also does not answer the question of how much more dangerous the DTaP vaccine is versus pertussis because it does not show the relative risk.

    Dr. Hamilton, in the future when we ask for cites please restrict those to the full papers (not letters or opinion pieces) indexed in PubMed.

    (And why, for the love of mud, is anyone still trying to reason with that funhouse ride of bizarre insanity who seems to think “dead” viruses can replicate?)

  402. #402 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 15, 2011

    Hi Gayl (again)!

    Remember this?

    READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the “gold standard” for evidence based medicine).
    Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.

    I realize that you’re probably pretty busy promoting disease in children, but if you could get me those cites, well, that would be great. Mmmmmkay?

  403. #403 Th1Th2
    April 15, 2011

    He still hasn’t answered why, if the human body is so susceptible to infection, we aren’t all dead from minor cuts and scrapes.

    …and injections?

  404. #404 Gray Falcon
    April 15, 2011

    Th1Th2, on what planet is that considered a proper answers? The human body takes far more cuts and scrapes than injections. Of course, I don’t expect you to figure something like that out on your own.

  405. #405 ArtK
    April 15, 2011

    @Gray Falcon

    It’s an appropriate response when you are so scared you soil yourself at the thought of a needle.

    More seriously, it’s a common human failing to discount the risks of what we find familiar, and to emphasize the risks of the unusual. That’s what makes us able to get behind the wheel and drive every day, but cringe in fear that a terrorist might hijack our airplane.

  406. #406 Bronze Dog
    April 15, 2011

    It’s funny to see where this thread and Thingy have gone. Now I’m imagining the shambling corpses of cartoon viruses being held back by Osmosis Jones.

  407. #407 Prometheus
    April 15, 2011

    I can’t believe Th1Th2 is at it again. It’s like watching a train wreck – you want to look away, but you can’t:

    “No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection.”

    Now, there is a slight possibility that Th1Th2 is confused about the difference between “not replicating” and “dead”. After all, one of the “hot” topics in medical microbiology is bacterial “persistence”, where they are alive but don’t replicate (and have minimal metabolic demands) for a prolonged period of time. If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be:

    Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing an infection.

    After all, an “infection” requires at least a minimal amount of replication, otherwise it’s not an infection. Pathogens (or non-pathogens) introduced into the body would be an inocculation; an infection is what occurs when the inocculum replicates.

    But Th1Th2, never content to merely suggest incompetence, continues:

    “Also, there are infections that do not require replication.”

    For example….?

    The only example I can come up with is rather contrived: an infusion of massive numbers of bacteria, fungi, archaea or other foreign organism (even viruses) could cause a massive immune response, possibly a fatal immune response, even if they were somehow altered to be viable (i.e. not dead) but unable to replicate. Heck, even an infusion of massive amounts of dead bacteria (etc.) could trigger a fatal immune response.

    Apart from that example, I can’t think of an infection (and the example isn’t really an infection, per se) that doesn’t involve replication.

    I suppose it’s also possible that Th1Th2 is playing a sort of “word game” and means that the bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc. aren’t replicating at the time of the injection. After all, even with live virus vaccines, the virus isn’t replicating in the syringe – it needs live human cells to do that.

    However, it’s more than a bit of a stretch to say that the surface proteins in the hepatitis B vaccine or the toxoids in the tetanus or diphtheria vaccines can “infect” because they aren’t even the whole organism.

    Unfortunately, the most likely explanation is that Th1Th2 hasn’t a clue about what “infection” or “replication” actually mean. To paraphrase Th1Th2 (and this is the second time I’ve used this in two days):

    “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

    Prometheus

  408. #408 herr doktor bimler
    April 16, 2011

    No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection.

    If this usage catches on, newspaper reports will talk of bullet infections instead of gunshot wounds, and knife infections instead of a fatal stabbing.

  409. #409 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 16, 2011

    A non-replicating infection is a type of latent infection. It is an infection in which replication has halted, but retains the ability to resume replication at a later date. A dead pathogen does not retain the ability to resume replication, so it can’t establish a non-replicating infection.

    NB: herpesvirus (Th1Th2’s example) initially replicates in the ganglion, but something causes the viral DNA to become circular (kind of like a plasmid). The virus doesn’t replicate in this form, but snip it at the right spot, and replication starts right back up. Or as ERV would say:

    OMG VIRUS SEXY TIMEZ!!! AI MAKEZ BABBY VIRUS NAUW!!!

  410. #410 CG
    April 16, 2011

    A dead pathogen does not retain the ability to resume replication, so it can’t establish a non-replicating infection.

    Not to mention the fact that even while latent, a herpesvirus is still expressing genes. It’s very far from dead.

  411. #411 Th1Th2
    April 16, 2011

    Prometheus,

    If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be: Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing infection.

    Like I said it’s all about the sequence. Infection comes before replication. Infection occurs when a naive child opens his mouth or exposes his arm to acquire the pathogenic agent. Whether the pathogen replicates or not (live or killed), does not matter for there are vaccines that promote host-to-host transmission of infectious pathogens and there are that cause noncommunicable infection. Hence, infection-induced immunity is the primary goal behind vaccination, not infection control let alone prevention. So a little nitpicking would make your statement true.

    Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing infection

  412. #412 Th1Th2
    April 16, 2011

    Prometheus,

    If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be: Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing infection.

    Like I said it’s all about the sequence. Infection comes before replication. Infection occurs when a naive child opens his mouth or exposes his arm to acquire the pathogenic agent. Whether the pathogen replicates or not (live or killed), does not matter for there are vaccines that promote host-to-host transmission of infectious pathogens and there are that cause noncommunicable infection. Hence, infection-induced immunity is the primary goal behind vaccination, not infection control let alone prevention. So a little nitpicking would make your statement true.

    Any pathogen capable of replicating, when introduced into the body, is capable of causing transmissible infection

  413. #413 Gray Falcon
    April 16, 2011

    Tell me, Th1Th2, do you have any support for your claims beyond “Take my word for it?”

  414. #414 Th1Th2
    April 16, 2011

    Prometheus,

    After all, an “infection” requires at least a minimal amount of replication, otherwise it’s not an infection. Pathogens (or non-pathogens) introduced into the body would be an inocculation; an infection is what occurs when the inocculum replicates.

    Infection occurs when the pathogen is present in the host’s tissue either by direct inoculation or exposure to natural infection.

    But Th1Th2, never content to merely suggest incompetence,

    Talk about incompetence. Vaccines often fail to induce immunity because of their incompetence to sustain prolonged antigenic stimulation.

    “Also, there are infections that do not require replication.”
    For example….?

    Vaccine-induced infections particularly caused by the use of killed, fragmented or recombinant DNA-based microorganisms.

    However, it’s more than a bit of a stretch to say that the surface proteins in the hepatitis B vaccine or the toxoids in the tetanus or diphtheria vaccines can “infect” because they aren’t even the whole organism.

    So if they cannot “infect”, how did they get through the innate barrier like the skin and end up deep in the host’s tissues and “they aren’t even the whole organism”?

    “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”

    It’s science-based and the only way to challenge vaccine aplogists is through science.

  415. #416 CG
    April 16, 2011

    Infection occurs when the pathogen is present in the host’s tissue either by direct inoculation or exposure to natural infection.

    For the last time, you are wrong. You don’t get to redefine words to suit your purposes.

    An infection is the colonization of a host by a parasitic organism. Colonization requires a living organism living in another, which means this requires replication or at least the possibility or replication.

    Dead things cannot do this so they cannot infect anything, ever. You don’t get to redefine words to suit your purposes.

    Proteins and other non-living things can in a few instances cause disease. Many bacteria toxins and even a few viral proteins can do this in the absence of their organism. This is not an infection. There is no colonization of the host.

    The only non-living thing that can cause an infection is a prion, and it more or less replicates by causing the host protein to misfold.

  416. #417 Th1Th2
    April 16, 2011

    herr doktor bimler,

    If this usage catches on, newspaper reports will talk of bullet infections instead of gunshot wounds, and knife infections instead of a fatal stabbing.

    Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections. I thought vaccine apologists are a lot smarter than 5th graders.

  417. #418 Gray Falcon
    April 16, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    It’s science-based and the only way to challenge vaccine aplogists is through science.

    Where are you getting your science? You can’t just make science up, you need to work from physical evidence. So what’s your evidence?

  418. #419 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 16, 2011

    Poor Thingy. She thinks cars are instantaneous teleportation devices, necrophiliacs can impregnate dead women, and dead pathogens are infectious.

  419. #420 Chris
    April 16, 2011

    Well, she does live in this fantastical funhouse that exists only in her strange convoluted brain.

  420. #421 Th1Th2
    April 16, 2011

    Vicklund,

    Poor Thingy. She thinks cars are instantaneous teleportation devices, necrophiliacs can impregnate dead women, and dead pathogens are infectious.

    Like I said before, it’s better to let go of this quietly than be exposed as germ-denialists. There are other ways though for them to evade scientific reasoning and utter humiliation, by means of ad hominem, faulty analogies and speculations. Check out #209, #386 and #415. If you cannot refute them with science, then that’s fine with me.

  421. #422 Gray Falcon
    April 16, 2011

    Once again, Th1Th2, it’s not up to us to prove you wrong, it’s up to you to show you’re right. You’re just making claims, where’s your evidence?

  422. #423 W. Kevin Vicklund
    April 16, 2011

    George W. Julian, discussing Lincoln’s views on the Emancipation Proclamation:

    In discussing the question, he used to liken the case to that of the boy who, when asked how many legs his calf would have if he called its tail a leg, replied, ” Five,” to which the prompt response was made that calling the tail a leg would not make it a leg.

    Calling diffusion an injection does not make it an injection. Calling an inoculation an infection does not make it an infection. We have repeatedly refuted #209, #386, and #415 using the correct scientific definitions. You are misusing these terms to poison the well.

  423. #424 Narad
    April 16, 2011

    Like I said before, it’s better to let go of this quietly than be exposed as germ-denialists.

    That’s a good one. To whom do you imagine one’s “germ denialism” would be “exposed” in the first place? By all appearances, this basically is your audience.

  424. #425 herr doktor bimler
    April 17, 2011

    Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections.

    Alas, that was back in the good old days before people decided that the consensus meanings of words could be ignored, and that they were free to come up with their own definitions that were more supportive of the case they were arguing.

  425. #426 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    CG,

    An infection is the colonization of a host by a parasitic organism. Colonization requires a living organism living in another, which means this requires replication or at least the possibility or replication.

    That one up there is why you’re the one guilty of redefining words. You have recklessly misidentified colonization with infection. Colonization occurs when the pathogen is present at the skin/mucosal surface without tissue invasion. The mere presence or multiplication of a pathogen at the host’s skin/mucosal surface does not necessarily constitute infection. It has to be present at the host’s tissue for infection to occur.

    Dead things cannot do this so they cannot infect anything, ever. You don’t get to redefine words to suit your purposes.

    Hence, killed vaccines are intentionally injected into the host’s tissue to promote infection. They cannot colonize and infect an intact skin because they are dead thus they will be eliminated. Some vaccines though like the OPV purposely colonize and infect the human gut.

    Proteins and other non-living things can in a few instances cause disease. Many bacteria toxins and even a few viral proteins can do this in the absence of their organism. This is not an infection. There is no colonization of the host.

    If you only knew where colonization takes place then you wouldn’t be this totally confused.

  426. #427 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    W. Kevin Vicklund,

    Calling diffusion an injection does not make it an injection. Calling an inoculation an infection does not make it an infection. We have repeatedly refuted #209, #386, and #415 using the correct scientific definitions. You are misusing these terms to poison the well.

    No. What I see is profound germ-denialism with persistent contradiction.

  427. #428 Krebiozen
    April 19, 2011

    I definitely see profound confusion and persistent contradiction here, but it’s in your comments Th1Th2. Maybe you should try taking a course in immunology – seriously.

    Immunology was the first subject that I really struggled with, as it’s so damnably complicated. It did engender a deep sense of humility and appreciation for those who figured all that stuff out.

    The words, ‘complement cascade’ still make me shudder…

  428. #429 MI Dawn
    April 19, 2011

    Time to killfile the Thing. He/She is becoming repetitive and boring to read. And still makes up definitions to words. I have more to my life than deal with the Thing.

    Thing, meet killfile. Killfile, meet Thing. Enjoy each other.

  429. #430 Sauceress
    April 19, 2011

    I’ve been away, but I have one last thing in this thread for Humpty Dumpty…
    #372

    They also contain non-specific chemicals produced by the body including the innate non-specific IgA that prevents the entry of pathogenic microorganisms.

    “innate non-specific IgA”
    ????
    I’d like a reference to this “innate non-specific IgA”
    You’re still confusing mucosal epithelia with MALT. IgA is the principle Ab of MALT.

    The innate immune response consists of:
    -Phagocytic cells:
    Leukocytes such as neutrophils, eosinophils, monocytes.
    Tissue phagocytic cells such as macrophages.

    -Cells that release inflammatory mediators:
    Inflammatory cells in the tissue such as macrophages.
    Mast cells leukocytes such as basophils and eosinophils.

    -Natural killer cells.

    -Molecules such as complement proteins, acute phase proteins and cytokines.

    Antibodies are not part of the innate immune response as they are produced by B cells (B lymphocytes).
    Naive lymphocytes are activated by the innate immune response.
    Activated B cells and T cells are part of the adaptive immune response…by definition

    I gave you the above link for a reason!
    Read. The. Book.

    Principles of innate and adaptive immunity

    #414

    It’s science-based and the only way to challenge vaccine aplogists is through science.

    So why don’t you get back to us when you can actually produce some genuine science rather than this inane armchair “expert” bullshit you’ve been posting so far.

    Like everyone else, I’d love to know where you’re getting all this crap. Obviously the same place all crap comes from.

  430. #431 Gray Falcon
    April 19, 2011

    You know, Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.

  431. #432 Narad
    April 19, 2011

    You know, Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.

    It might be simpler to just capitulate and see if there’s anything else. I mean, OK, I’m guilty of “profound germ-denialism with persistent contradiction.” So? Do I get a pamphlet or something?

  432. #433 Sauceress
    April 19, 2011

    Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.

    Evidence? Eveedense? Humpty Dumpty don’t need no damn eveee-dense!
    It don’t need none of them damned edukase-shuns either!

  433. #434 Chris
    April 19, 2011

    Krebiozen:

    I definitely see profound confusion and persistent contradiction here, but it’s in your comments Th1Th2. Maybe you should try taking a course in immunology – seriously.

    Actually a course in basic English might be more appropriate. She keeps using definitions of several words that only make sense to her, and no one else.

  434. #435 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Chris,

    Actually a course in basic English might be more appropriate. She keeps using definitions of several words that only make sense to her, and no one else.

    How about simply looking at the anatomy of the skin before you embarrass yourself again and again? Have you forgotten what you said?

    Because it is obvious you don’t even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?

    Now where is your own version of the skin which you claimed does not consist of blood vessels?

    How about a trivia for the confused and obtuse.

    Q.Each square inch of the human skin consists of how many feet of blood vessels?
    A. 20 feet.

  435. #436 Composer99
    April 19, 2011

    And Thing answers Chris’ question about whether Thing knows the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle with a resounding ‘no!’ (and with a dirty great strawman, but who’s keeping track of Thing1Thing2’s straw army?)

  436. #437 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Sauceress,

    Evidence? Eveedense? Humpty Dumpty don’t need no damn eveee-dense!
    It don’t need none of them damned edukase-shuns either!

    Evidence of ignorance and humiliation, you sure have plenty of it. Check out #303 and #372.

  437. #438 Gray Falcon
    April 19, 2011

    Th1Th2, I said evidence, not claims. Anyone can make claims. I can claim that you practice black magic. Without evidence, though, claims are meaningless.

  438. #439 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Chris,

    And Thing answers Chris’ question about whether Thing knows the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle with a resounding ‘no!’ (and with a dirty great strawman, but who’s keeping track of Thing1Thing2’s straw army?)

    You are just as confused. Check out #265. Do you also have your new version of the skin anatomy?

  439. #440 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Gray,

    Th1Th2, I said evidence, not claims. Anyone can make claims. I can claim that you practice black magic. Without evidence, though, claims are meaningless.

    .

    You boldly claimed this. Are you going to deny it again and again?

    You’re the one who stated that the live-virus version is still out there infecting people. My claim was that it did infect people, but it was not virulent enough to spread as badly as wild-type polio. I just want evidence for your claim.

    Now where is your evidence?

  440. #441 Gray Falcon
    April 19, 2011

    Th1Th2, you’re assuming that there are only two extremes, that vaccines always cause infection, or that they never cause infection. I said that the live-virus vaccine caused a minor infection, I never claimed a killed virus could infect people. You claimed that ALL vaccinations cause infections, please provide evidence for that.

    Also, do you have any evidence that veins and capillaries are identical?

  441. #442 Sauceress
    April 19, 2011

    @Humpty Dumpty #436

    Check out #303 and #372.

    First up..
    TH1TH2 #303 response to Sauceress #300

    Can you identify the first five words that you have quoted?

    Yes, and your point is?

    Good grief. What the hell are you talking about?

    Chris asked:

    Wow! It even has pictures! So, Th1Th2, look at the pretty pictures. Tell us which one shows the end of the needle going into a vein.

    TH1TH2 reponded:

    I couldn’t tell but you will need Band-Aid or a cotton ball for a needlestick injury like that right?

    Perhaps Humpty can explain what it was it meant to imply by its answer?

    Next #372
    Regarding your inability to comprehend the difference between mucosal epithelia and MALT, as well your ignorance as to the difference between innate and adaptive immune responses, I’ve posted a response to that as well.
    No doubt, due to my post containing a link which details the differences between the innate and adaptive immune response, that post is still in moderation. Here’s that post without the html link:

    Sauceress:
    [quote]
    I’ve been away, but I have one last thing in this thread for Humpty Dumpty…
    #372

    They also contain non-specific chemicals produced by the body including the innate non-specific IgA that prevents the entry of pathogenic microorganisms.

    innate non-specific IgA

    ????
    I’d like a reference to this “innate non-specific IgA”
    You’re still confusing mucosal epithelia with MALT. IgA is the principle Ab of MALT.

    The innate immune response consists of:
    -Phagocytic cells:
    Leukocytes such as neutrophils, eosinophils, monocytes.
    Tissue phagocytic cells such as macrophages.

    -Cells that release inflammatory mediators:
    Inflammatory cells in the tissue such as macrophages.
    Mast cells leukocytes such as basophils and eosinophils.

    -Natural killer cells.

    -Molecules such as complement proteins, acute phase proteins and cytokines.

    Antibodies are not part of the innate immune response as they are produced by B cells (B lymphocytes).
    Naive lymphocytes are activated by the innate immune response.
    Activated B cells and T cells are part of the adaptive immune response…by definition

    I gave you the above link for a reason!
    Read. The. Book.

    Link to “Principles of innate and adaptive immunity” (Immunobiology, Janeway et. al.)[unquote]”

    That is all.

  442. #443 Sauceress
    April 19, 2011

    Evidence of ignorance and humiliation, you sure have plenty of it. Check out #303 and #372.

    My responses are in moderation.

    @#434

    Q.Each square inch of the human skin consists of how many feet of blood vessels?
    A. 20 feet.

    A Vein is a blood vessel, but a blood vessel is not necessarily a vein. Do you understand?

  443. #444 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    I said that the live-virus vaccine caused a minor infection,[…]

    You know for sure that is a big slap on Chris’ face you made there. You’re actually disagreeing with her when she claimed the live measles virus vaccine has prevented and reduced the incidence of measles infection. So who’s among you is the real germ-denialist? Haha

    […]I never claimed a killed virus could infect people. You claimed that ALL vaccinations cause infections,[…]

    Yes. ALL vaccinations cause infection. Some cause transmissible infections (live vaccines) and others promote noncommunicable infections(killed, fragmented, recombinant DNA-based vaccines).

    […]please provide evidence for that.

    It’s simple. The body’s immune response against vaccines.

  444. #445 Th1Th2
    April 19, 2011

    Gray,

    Also, do you have any evidence that veins and capillaries are identical?

    Who said they are identical?

  445. #446 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    Th1Th2

    The body’s immune response against vaccines.

    Not good enough. My body provides a strong immune response against pollen, and that certainly isn’t an infection. Try again.

    Who said they are identical?

    You did, when you pointed the number of blood vessels per square inch in a body, and claimed that as proof that vaccines are administered intravenously.

  446. #447 Th1Th2
    April 20, 2011

    Gray,

    Not good enough. My body provides a strong immune response against pollen, and that certainly isn’t an infection. Try again.

    It’s not an infection; it’s called shameless ignorance. Anybody with a brainstem knows that infections are caused by pathogens and not allergens. I did call you a germ-denialist for a reason. Of course, you will never stop ridiculing yourself.

    You did, when you pointed the number of blood vessels per square inch in a body, and claimed that as proof that vaccines are administered intravenously.

    Check out #157. This what I said. “Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid.”

    Of course, vaccines can also be given intravenously. Check out #77 and #99. Do you have any problem with that?

  447. #448 Sauceress
    April 20, 2011

    What would one call a hybridisation of Humpty Dumpty and Monty Python’s Black Knight?

  448. #449 Krebiozen
    April 20, 2011

    I withdraw my suggestion that Th1Th2 should take immunology classes. I would not wish to be responsible in any way for a teacher’s nervous breakdown.

  449. #450 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    It’s not an infection; it’s called shameless ignorance. Anybody with a brainstem knows that infections are caused by pathogens and not allergens. I did call you a germ-denialist for a reason. Of course, you will never stop ridiculing yourself.

    Did you even read my post? Do you know what allergies are? Tell me, where are you getting your information from? So, why do I get sinus headaches and sniffles during pollen season, if not allergies?

  450. #451 Gray Falcon
    April 20, 2011

    Th1Th2, please provide evidence for your claims. Don’t just say things like “Anybody with a brainstem knows that”, I’ve heard similar arguments from white supremacists.

  451. #452 CG
    April 20, 2011

    That one up there is why you’re the one guilty of redefining words. You have recklessly misidentified colonization with infection.

    Actually, you are guilty of not understanding what I wrote, not to mention still redefining words.

    An infection of an organism is a kind of colonization by a parasite that is detrimental to the host.

    To quote a medical dictionary, an infection: the state produced by the establishment of an infective agent in or on a suitable host

    And the establishment of an infective agent is, by definition, a colonization. Not to mention killed things can’t establish anything, you know, being dead and all.

    Colonization occurs when the pathogen is present at the skin/mucosal surface without tissue invasion.

    Again, wrong.

    Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection. E. coli O157:H7 doesn’t leave the intestine, yet it still causes an infection.

    I hate to play this cared, you are arguing with a microbiologist who studies an animal commensal and a human pathogen. The difference between colonization and infection is a very fine line.

    You are clearly very, very confused about basic microbiology and immunology.

  452. #453 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 20, 2011

    You are clearly very, very confused about basic microbiology and immunology.

    No, no, no!

    The problem is that that the rest of us don’t speak Thinglish.

  453. #454 informed consent advocate
    May 6, 2011

    HORRORS!!! OMG! OMG! OMG!!!! An ad (public service announcement) that lets people know they have a CHOICE whether to have themselves or their child injected with a possibly harmful, possibly ineffective substance! GET THE FACTS. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! Exemptions (medical, religious, “personal belief”) to mandatory school-entry vaccination are available. (They vary, depending upon your state.)

  454. #455 NJ
    May 6, 2011

    icasshole@454:

    HORRORS!!! OMG! OMG! OMG!!!! An ad (public service announcement) that lets people know they have a CHOICE whether to have themselves or their child lies to people to imply that they would be injected with a possibly harmful, possibly ineffective substance!

    FIFY.

  455. #456 Chris
    May 6, 2011

    “informed consent advocate”, can you please tell us why a supplement seller (Mercola) and a public relations mavin (Barbara Loe Fisher) are a better source of medical information than the American Academy of Pediatrics? Please provide documentation of Ms. Fisher’s medical education credentials, and Mercola’s pediatric’s and vaccine research papers. Thank you.

  456. #457 augustine
    May 6, 2011

    Chris, not a clinician but a rocket scientist and childhood military traveler therefore knows everything about everything:

    can you please tell us why a supplement seller (Mercola) and a public relations mavin (Barbara Loe Fisher) are a better source of medical information than the American Academy of Pediatrics?

    http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm

    http://www.nvic.org/about.aspx

    Mercola’s pediatric’s and vaccine research papers?

    As soon as you give ORAC’s peer reviewed of the same.

    BTW the AAP is a trade organization. As a trade organization it’s first and foremost duty is to it’s professional members. It seeks to protect itself’s interests and the interest’s of it’s members.

    Vaccination is a major part of it’s financial business.

  457. #458 Moderation
    May 6, 2011

    Augustine: You are absolutely clueless and talking out of your a**. It is one thing to talk about Big Pharma making money off vaccines, but you betray your utter ignorance when you imply that pediatricians make a buch of money off vaccines. I am currently employed by a large medical company and am paid a salary. I recieve NO bonus or other benefit from administering vaccines to protect my patients. I have also worked at several small pediatric practices that either lost money or barely broke even managing the administration of vaccines. The paperwork is massive (tracking the lotsin the patient chart, in the vaccine log, monitoring the refidgerator and freezer temps and documenting, etc.). Do us all a favor and educate yourself a little before start typing a comment.

  458. #459 augustinea
    May 6, 2011

    Augustine: You are absolutely clueless and talking out of your a**. It is one thing to talk about Big Pharma making money off vaccines, but you betray your utter ignorance when you imply that pediatricians make a buch of money off vaccines.

    Uh, have you ever heard of a well baby visit? If it weren’t for vaccines then those visits wouldn’t exist. It doesn’t take a doctor to weigh a baby.

    And pediatricians in general don’t make a bunch of money (relatively speaking),and I didn’t imply that they did. But the vaccine visit comprises a major part of practice. But I would guess that the AAP has just a teenie bit more money than a pediatrician in private practice. And when you add up all of the pediatricians influenced by the AAP, that’s a lot of money that flows and changes hands.

  459. #460 Moderation
    May 6, 2011

    Augustine: Let me quote you: “Vaccination is a major part of it’s financial business.”

    Look I have read enough of your comments to know you are not stupid, so I am left to believe that you are lazy. Have you ever taken your child in for a check up. Vaccination is a tiny part of a “well child” visit. There is developmental screening (gross motor, fine motor and speach), there is monitoring of growth, discussing parenting techniques, dealing with parental concerns and performing a complete physical exam. In fact of the 10 “well child” visits in the first two years of life, vaccines are only administered at 5 or 6. Even if we eliminated all vaccine preventable disease these visits would still occur.

  460. #461 Militant Agnostic
    May 6, 2011

    Have you ever taken your child in for a check up?

    I suspect Augustine’s child is imaginary just like his evidence.

  461. #462 LW
    May 6, 2011

    “Look I have read enough of your comments to know you are not stupid”

    I’ve read enough of augustine’s comments to know that it is astonishingly stupid.

  462. #463 Th1Th2
    May 6, 2011

    CG,

    Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection. E. coli O157:H7 doesn’t leave the intestine, yet it still causes an infection.

    You’re bluffing again. I was surprised you never mentioned any of the the common childhood diseases a.k.a. VPDs as good examples of nasty infections. Don’t you guys preach this all the time? I mean polio causing paralysis, measles -> encephalitis, pertussis -> pneumonia and so on and so forth. Instead you chose E. coli O157:H7 because “it doesn’t leave the intestine”? Oh really? Or maybe because something else is causing the kidneys to fail. eh? (Hint: HUS)

    I hate to play this cared, you are arguing with a microbiologist who studies an animal commensal and a human pathogen.

    You’re no different than any of those clueless pretenders.

    The difference between colonization and infection is a very fine line.

    Then tell me the difference instead of contradicting yourself when you claimed this…

    And the establishment of an infective agent is, by definition, a colonization.

  463. #464 Krebiozen
    May 7, 2011

    I shouldn’t feed the troll, but I can’t ignore this sort of ignorant arrogance.

    You’re no different than any of those clueless pretenders.

    Th1Th2 Do you really think you are so clever you have figured out that the past 150 years of microbiology is all wrong? That the thousands of scientists (including CG) who have spent their lives studying and researching this were all “clueless pretenders”, despite the huge amount of overwhelming evidence that confirms they are right? You might benefit from researching the work of some of these Nobel Prize winning scientists. It might give you some idea of the sheer volume of research that supports the ideas you ridicule.

    Every comment you post makes it even more obvious that you have misunderstood the most basic elements of immunology and microbiology.

  464. #465 Th1Th2
    May 7, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    Well, the burden of proof is yours to support CG’s false claim that “Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection.” Again there are a dozen *sigh* VPDs to choose from but why pick on the E. coli O157:H7? For someone who is unable to distinguish colonization from infection is definitely a clueless pretender. Let’s start with that first.

  465. #466 Krebiozen
    May 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 – I’m not really interested in futile semantic arguments when you seem to think you can redefine words to mean whatever you want. If you can express what you are trying to explain in understandable English, using the dictionary definitions of the words you use, please do so. Otherwise, you are wasting everyone’s time.

  466. #467 MeMyself
    May 10, 2011

    So let me get this straight…they are promoting “get informed” and you are stating that they are quacks and anti-vaccine “loons”??? So are you one of the those “just follow your government, don’t ask questions” people as well? got to say, I am with the pro freedom, pro American, pro choice, pro HUMAN “loons”. God, it feels good to be a loon!!

  467. #468 Linda Dowling
    September 22, 2011

    I had polio enough said.

  468. #469 Phillip J. Baker
    November 28, 2011

    It looks like the Jumbotron is up for grabs to anyone with the cash to pay for it. The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) is also running an ad of their own, claiming to inform the public about Lyme disease. Unfortunately, much of what they have to say is unreliable and/or misleading. Is there an adult in charge of supervising the content of the Jumbotron, or is it nothing more than a giant, electronic graffiti machine?

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