I tell ya. I take a weekend off from this blog, and what do I find on Sunday night when I sit back down to take a look and see if there's anything I want to blog about?
Damn if those anti-vaccine loons aren't pulling a fast one while I'm not looking. It turns out that über-quack Joe Mercola is teaming up once again with Barbara Loe Fisher's the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) in a desperate attempt for the NVIC to try to demonstrate that it's still relevant in the anti-vaccine movement after having been supplanted by Generation rescue. This time around, they're doing SafeMinds one better and, hot on the heels of hosting "Vaccine Awareness Week" to spread misinformation far and wide, is now trying for greater notoriety. Via Skepchick Elyse Anders, I learn that Mercola and the NVIC are running anti-vaccine ads on the CBS Times Square JumboTron on 42nd Street:
A 15-second public service message featuring the National Vaccine Information Center is being shown on the CBS JumboTron on Times Square through April 28. Made possible by support from Mercola.com, the message is shown every hour for 18 hours a day on the 20 by 26-foot full color big screen located on 42nd St. between 7th and 8th Avenues near Broadway and the NY Port Authority and directly beneath where the crystal ball drops at midnight on Times Square every NewYear's Eve.The 15 second spot includes the logos of NVIC and Mercola.com and a photo of a Mom with her baby. It begins with the message Vaccines: Know the Risks and ends with the message Vaccination: Your Health. Your Family. Your Choice with the statue of liberty in the background.
Every day, more than 1.5 million people and 60,000 cars pass through Times Square, which is know as the "Gateway to New York" and "where the world meets America."
This ad will continue to run for another 17 days after today once an hour every hour. Notice how the ad itself is cleverly couched in one of the favorite anti-vaccine tropes of "get informed about vaccines," and then it points people to Mercola's website and the NVIC website, both of which are wretched hives of scum and antivaccine quackery.
Obviously, given how Generation Rescue and its celebrity bubble brain spokesmodel Jenny McCarthy have become the most visible anti-vaccine propaganda organization, one can't help but wonder whether the NVIC felt an intense need to try to recapture attention from GR and become viewed as relevant again, even at high cost. After all, it can't be cheap to run an ad on a JumboTron at one of the most trafficked locations in the world, which makes me wonder where the NVIC came up with the bucks to do it.
Be that as it may, I join Skepchick and the Skeptical Teacher in urging you to sign the Change.org petition, an excerpt of which reads:
We are asking CBS not to run Mercola and the NVIC's anti-vaccine ad in Times Square.
Mercola and the NVIC have cooperated to run an ad in Times Square on April 26. This ad directs viewers to their sites to learn more about vaccines. Upon visiting these two sites, consumers are falsely informed that vaccines cause autism, learning disabilities, seizures, cancer and death. Mercola actively encourages the public to refuse vaccines. And the NVIC works to ensure that parents have opportunity and reason to refuse vaccines for their children.
Their information is wrong. And the fear these two organizations are spreading is deadly. In the last four years, in the US alone, almost 77,000 people have been infected with vaccine preventable diseases. over 700 of those people died. According to the WHO, measles kills 200,000 people worldwide annually.
If you don't believe that Mercola and the NVIC are anti-vaccine to the core, simply check out these searches:
Go on to Tweet @CBSOutdoor and use #VaxCBS to tell CBS that these ads are unacceptable. E-mail them as well. Maybe while we're at it, we can get CBS to finally fire its anti-vaccine correspondent Sharyl Attkisson.
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NVIC's text is incorrect. It should read "A 15-second public disservice messageâ¦".
..and today Joe the Quack sent out this link...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/05/gardasil-…
Deaths there may have been (none have been definitely associated with Gardasil beyond "she had the vaccination and later she died") but at a rate of 1.5 per million shots.
Don't just mail info@cbsoutdoors.com, whomp it up to Media Contact and Diffuse Editor jeremy.murphy@cbs.com, 212-975-4577.
Thanks for posting this. I signed the petition.
Emailed Jeremy Murphy, although I am from the UK so whether it will interest him... I did re-iterate in the strongest of terms the global impact of irresponsible broadcasting, particularly in the context of health so fingers crossed. I will sign the petition too.
A two year old boy in New Zealand was accidently given Gardasil at 6 weeks and now, 2 years later, has leukaemia. Needless to say it was absolutely and inarguably caused by the vaccine and anyone who says otherwise is in the pocket of big pharma etc, etc, etc.
Never mind that many children get leukaemia and these days the vast majority recover. Ironically while immuno-compromised at the moment, during chemo, he will be relying on herd immunity to keep him safe from diseases that could be deadly, yet the loons are exploiting his condition to try and turn parents off vaccines. It's a mad old world!
"Pshaw! Herd immunity doesn't apply to humans. We aren't animals or a herd!"
I've actually heard someone say this in response to the point about herd immunity. The stupid...it buuuuurrrns!
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2011/04/oh-look-jumbotron-wants-t…
Oh, look! A helpful message on
The giant Times Square Jumbotron,
Reminding us to âget the factsâ
And think again, before we vax.
I found out, after several queries,
Itâs but the first in quite a seriesâ
Theyâll run a few more giant ads
To help inform the moms and dads:
For instanceâthink about demands
That doctors make, to âwash your handsâ
A helpful ad will tell you âThink!
Before you rush to use your sink!â
(On thinking, youâll recall, they hope,
Big Pharmaâs ties to Giant Soapâ
Itâs nature's way, and cannot hurt,
For hands to cake with germs and dirt)
Another ad suggests you eat
More spoiled eggs and rancid meat;
To throw them out is such a wasteâ
Bacteria just add more taste!
(The FDA, whom we abhor,
Says throw it out and buy some more;
They frame concerns about your health,
But care about the farmersâ wealth)
So get the facts, and take control!
Empowerment should be your goal!
You tell the experts where to goâ
Cos really⦠what do doctors know?
@Cuttlefish:
Bravo!
@Cuttlefish:
Bravo!
Cuttlefish,
Your best yet, IMHO
I don't usually sign petitions, but this one is worth an exception.
And here's my anecdote: My daughter just got her final Gardasil shot last week. She complained about a sore arm and some aches for a few days after each shot. Then since the first shot, all the sudden (or something like that) she started being moody and crying for no reason! She doesn't want to listen, thinks she knows everything and has sudden mood swings! ZOMG teh toxinzzz!!! There is no way this would have happened without the shots.
Oh, and she is less likely to be infected with HPV, which is associated with cervical cancer. So there's that...
@Cuttlefish
Well played, sir! Well played.
Cuttlefish,
Loved it!
Kristen,
That moody phase: I remember thinking it was at it's peak (trough?) more than a few times. You never know the actual peak until years later looking back.
Will sign the petition when I get home.
Kristen :-)
My wife's Aunt Lena says, "Kids - When they're babies, they're so cute, you could just eat 'em up. And when they're older, you wish you had!"
You know, it's really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows - parents SHOULD get information about vaccines. I DO have a problem with who sponsored the sign because if people contact NVIC or Mercola for the information...yeah, right, you are going to get real scientific information from THEM. (Brain bleach needed after thinking about them).
@Kristen: ah, the moody phase. Let me know when it ends...(mine are 21 and 23...)
@Cuttlefish: wonderful. Wish we could post YOU on the NY sign.
Kristen -- with two girls, I fear that stage. :-D My uncle, who also had two girls, shared with me the advice one of his friends gave him.
"When they turn 13, they will give you a bag to hold onto until they turn 18."
"What's in it?"
"Their brains."
Remembering my own adolescence, this is actually fairly true. :-P
Recent anti-vax strategies by the woo-propagandists ( often in concert**) have all included ways to circumvent the mainstream media***: ads in cinemas, woo-meisters' sites,"documentaries" spread amongst the faithful, "lectures" in schools/ churches/ bookstores, the direct lobbying of state legislators, protests/ conventions/ press releases, You-tube/ facebook/twitter, and *this*. Yesterday, Adams ( @ NaturalNews)although writing yet again about Fukushima, tells the faithful to not trust the mainstream media for *any* news. Instead, they should turn to the alternate universe media peopled with "truth-tellers" like himself and all of the "usual suspects". Remember, they have the "studies" and the "science". ( "Oh, what a tangled web we weave....") And it *is* a web.
** Mercola/ BLF, NVIC; AoA/ GenRescue; LKH- NJCVC/ protegee of Null, AoA. Adams quotes all unreasonable existing sources & various health freedom sites; other lesser resources ( ThinkTwice) ride coat-tails.
*** I wonder why that is?
Signed the petition and sent an email to Jeremy Murphy. Got the "out of office" reply. Hopefully he'll be in for a big surprise when he checks in...
@Cuttlefish
I find it very interesting that you declined to include a verse about being advised to eat your veggies. Obviously you are a shill for Big Agri.
Oh, and speaking of "tangled webs", Andy himself is to speak at Brandeis Wednesday ( via Jake Crosby, today, AoA).
Mercola, Fisher, Andrew Wakefield. By their power combined, they are viral reservoir!
Well done, Cuttlefish. I'm off to sign that petition.
Wait. Can non-US-citizens sign internet petitions, or is that one of those rights that got stripped from foreigners?
Kristen--I never had the Gardasil shot, and I rarely had mood swings. Its obviously teh ebil Gardasil! Two isolated anecdotes must mean its science!
For the record, I never had Gardasil because I'm overwhelmingly terrified of needles and am married. If I were to get divorced or lose my husband, you bet I would find a way to get the shots.
Works fine. There's an entry asking for your country. Foreigner signatures are a go!
I refuse to sign. I have 2 vaccine injured kids. What they injuries are, why bother explaining. No one, who hasn't had a child injured by a vaccine, even attempts to understand why we urge parents to KNOW what they are injecting into their children BEFORE they do it. We- whom you label "anti-vaccine" rarely are. We have vaccinated out kids, and learned the hard way that they are not 100% safe for ALL kids. Some should never see the FIRST vaccination, but no one ever even lets us get that far in explanations- we tell them to play it smart- and we get labeled as an anti-vaccination-ist. Ok, fine. Dn't do your research, don't choose s different schedule, a SAFER schedule. All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated. We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can't afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS, and we don't have big pharma in our pockets. You ask for certain tests to be run beforeyou vaccinate your kids, and you are refused as there is "no medical reason" for the tests to be run. Then, after a vaccine injury, you ask again, and they run the test you asked for before, and find HUGE medical issues, and you are then exempt from vaccines for the REST OF YOUR LIFE because they could cause a "major brain injury" in the "future" if they recieve any further vaccinations. An injury which would NOT have happened, if they had given the blood test that was asked for BEFORE they were injured in the first place, but there was no cause for it. Hmmm.... really? Maybe if people were the slightest bit informed of BOTH sides of the story, people would have their kids tested BEFORE vaccination, and fewer injuries would happen. And FYI, did you know that the Hep B vaccination, given at birth, causes more injuries to children, than Hep B does yearly in the US?? Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed, vs. the PROVEN amount of new Hep B cases listed by the CDC. The ads from the CDC says 300,000 new cases in the US each year. The actual numbers of cases listed at the CDC was less than 2% of that. The difference in numbers is staggering.
I refuse to sign. No one, who hasn't had a child injured by a vaccine, even attempts to understand why we urge parents to KNOW what they are injecting into their children BEFORE they do it. We- whom you label "anti-vaccine" rarely are. I had to learn the hardway about the dangers of these vaccines and had to watch my children suffer, and I cried with them. I shouldnt have been so blind, I shouldn't have trusted those vaccines were safe. So while people are getting rich off these vaccines, their are children dying, having severe reactions to them and no one cares! Look up at VARES the ammount of vaccine injuries listed, vs. the PROVEN amount of new Hep B cases listed by the CDC. The ads from the CDC says 300,000 new cases in the US each year. The actual numbers of cases listed at the CDC was less than 2% of that. The difference in numbers is staggering.
Tell me, how do you two know that vaccines were responsible for what you're talking about? Oh, and if you suggest that it was simply because it was in the same timeframe, try to remember what else you did in that time.
Stephanie Jones,
I don't recall anyone in this forum ever saying that vaccines were 100% safe for all people, nor do I recall anyone denying that there can be serious injuries from vaccines.
You state that
Can you say what tests are routinely being refused and give some link to data or studies showing how those tests would prevent these injuries?
Thanks.
Hmm - Patricia, meet Stephanie. Stephanie, Patricia. Oh, you've already met (and agreed on what you were going to post, or both got your wording from the same place, or you're the same person)?
It is just me, or are Stephanie & Patricia cutting and pasting from the same source (or are the same person)?
Hah! For anyone who's wondering, Lawrence and I are *not* the same person. (Much to Lawrence's relief, I'm sure.)
Are you sure?
Your paranoia regarding an innocuous ad simply asking parents to become aware of vaccines and their rights in regards to them reveals what a decrepit house of cards the vaccine program really is. It can only exist by way of force, propaganda and censorship. What a great miracle they are. If the people could just see it.
No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children's bloodstreams. If vaccines are harmless, parents who do their research will vaccinate their children anyway. The truth is, most of the people who DO spend years researching vaccinations decide NOT to vaccinate. There is a reason for this. This is America and individuals have the fundamental right to a choice. What choice one person makes shouldn't affect another...if you get vaccinated because you believe that vaccine works, an unvaccinated person should pose no threat to you. "Herd immunity" was first discovered before vaccinations existed when populations that recovered from a disease developed lifetime immunity. "Herd immunity" was picked up by vaccine manufacturers thereafter and used for their public relations and marketing campaign. It is a theory that scares most into believing vaccinations save the world. Health simply does not come through a needle.
Stephanie
Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream. I think your "research" may be a wee bit deficient.
Anyone who allegedly spends years researching vaccines and still does not vaccinate isn't really researching. Shame on Mercola and company. New Yorkers deserve better than disease spreading idiocy.
The ad is not "asking parents to become aware of vaccines and their rights." The ad is asking parents to come be lied to, deceived, and defrauded.
Citation needed.
False. Vaccination does not provide 100% protection, and some people have contraindications to being vaccinated.
Death and permanent disability come from avoiding them, though.
It seems that many comments here are astroturfing. I wonder how many different drug manufacturers are represented here?
For some, the odds of the above are too miniscule to justify the risks, both known and unknown, of vaccination.
Stephanie, when do they inject vaccines directly into the bloodstream? Which vaccines are injected directly into a vein?
I'm still waiting for my checks from Merck, can you let me know when they're coming?
FTFY
Stehanie, I'd be happy to have a drug manufacturer pay me for my little verse. Sadly, none has offered.
If the advert was so innocuous and has the target audience's best interest in mind, then why not show urls for the many objective sites regarding diseases, vaccines and excipients? Their not fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.
Stephanie -
Please justify this comment. Provide us with some examples of which you aware of people who spent years researching vaccinations and decided not to vaccinate.
In particular, please justify your claim that they spent years "researching" vaccinations.
For example, I can find scientific articles published by Paul Offit extending over many years describing the results of his vaccination research if you want, which would provide a basis for my claim that Paul Offit has spent years researching vaccination. I would have to rely moreso on interviews to support my claim that he does have his children vaccinated (I know his son has the Gardisal vaccine even).
There's one. Your turn.
And that would be "they're, not "their".
Stephanie, Patricia
Oh yes, a "safer schedule." My parents tried that, making up a schedulae as they went along because the man on TV (okay, Barbara Loe Fisher in the 80's) said it was "too many too soon," and they thereby missed all the free clinics for TB shots and numerous others. I got my vaccination record and, big shock, I'm missing most of my childhood vaccinations, and now must save up my own cash to get them as an adult.
Where's my health freedom?
When I get my seasonal flu shot, I'm given a paper document to sign, outlining the possible complications (just the real ones.) I have informed consent. This ad by Fisher and Mercola is misinformed consent. It's using unfounded fears and unreal dangers, refuted time and again by repeated scientific study, to try to scare parents, like mine, out of vaccinating their kids, like me.
Children are "dying of vaccines?" How about pertussis, TB, measles, and other vaccine preventable diseases? Refusing vaccines in the name of safety is like driving without a seatbelt because you're afraid it might choke you, while speeding, so you spend less time on the road, fishtailing like mad to try to dodge oncoming traffic. It's supreme foolishness.
"Do your own research"? I have, unless you mean internet crackpot sites like PrisonPlanet and Natural News. You know, back in the day we used to know the internet was full of crazy conspiracy theories with no foundation in reality. Nowadays, everyone's talking about Obama not being a citizen and the alien implants up their noses instead. It's time we remember the internet is an insane asylum with voluntary self-admittance.
@Pablo
Yeah, but Paul Offit (do you have a statue of him in front of your house?) is invariably wrong when talking about vaccination. For example he states in one of his little vaccine books:
Yet those 20,000 children were victims of a once in a generation epidemic. So why should anyone expect that to happen every year?
You really do have to find another idol Pablo.
I represent Bayer. I bought aspirin last week. That must make me a shill.
I can't help but notice though that you didn't respond to the posts pointing out your misconceptions based on your lack of knowledge. Instead you just tossed out the Pharma-Shill gambit.
If you can't get the simple things right (vaccines injected into bloodstream, vaccinated don't need to fear non-vaccinated, for example), then perhaps you should reconsider if you have the rest of it right.
So many canards, so little time. Which vaccines are IV injected Stephanie? Is that what your "years of research" fetched you?
Sure, if they have half a brain and stick to sources that are reliable. No one ever comes away believing that vaccines are absolutely safe. They come away with knowing that the risks are minuscule and the benefits far outweigh them.
Years of Google Uni you mean; that's not research and certainly doesn't trump what bona fide experts who actually do research know.
Yes, you do have a choice, so why keep making such bad ones? Your choices do affect others. Again Stephanie, your "research" is showing and it isn't pretty, or knowledgeable.
No dear, it doesn't quite work like that. You see, susceptible people keep entering the herd, drat that. Herd immunity is an epidemiological theory which explains, quite nicely I might add, how to prevent susceptibility. So much for your years of research, pretty wasted time I'd say.
Oh and the pharma shill gambit is so last year. If you can't argue the merits, then don't be such an ass as to stoop to calling your detractors pharma shills.
@Scott
What a concept, you, and not the taxpayer, having to pay for your medication
Yes it's better to go to sites supported by the drug companies selling the vaccines and the government agencies pushing them
Ah yes, because you're so unbelievably infallible that nobody could possibly disagree with you for such a trivial reason as, you know, you're so grossly wrong it's like saying that 1+1=giraffe.
Seriously. Some evidence, please.
Yes there is! Propaganda works!
And no, parents won't vaccinate their kids if its safe, because there's tons of misleading antivax propaganda out there designed to fool them, and they don't know the first thing about how to evaluate scientific evidence.
Parents are a couple of barely adult punk kids playing with hair gel and finding somewhere else on their clothes to fit a silver skull pin. (Mine were, anyway.) Well-meaning they may be, but doctors they are not!
This is rich coming after 2 supposedly different anti-vaxxers make consecutive posts containing several sentences that are identical.
Bridge Troll
Canadian speaking.
I am SO tired of being called a pharma shill. For pete's sake, where do these idiot parents come from who insist that anyone who doesn't agree with them have to be pharma shills? For the record, I have never worked, done research or been paid by a pharmacological manufacturer. I HAVE had my children vaccinated, I have been vaccinated, my husband has been vaccinated. I am NOT immune to all those things that I have either a)had as a child or b)been vaccinated against because vaccines are not 100% effective at giving immunity(and neither are the real diseases) However, the serious effects of the diseases are generally worse than the vaccines.
Oh, and Silly Sid: No. Epidemics of pertussis, measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc went through pretty much every year, because as pointed out to you before, vulnerable people (newborns, people who were immunodeficient) keep entering the pool. While we are all aware that you have no social conscience, there are those of us who DO care about our neighbor's children as well as our own.
Patricia:
Please list the PubMed cites of the case studies of the children who have died from vaccines. And then please provide the PubMed cites showing that the vaccines cause more harm than the diseases.
Also, it is VAERS. It is not considered real evidence, just self-reported raw data. That cannot be used as proof until the reports are investigated. It even says so on its website, VAERS Does Not Determine Causality:
@Sid Offit,
Glad to see you taking a break from celebrating the demise of brown skinned people to vaccine preventable diseases to spew out some idiotic libertarian jackassery for us.
That way well be true, but how does the sum total of Hep B vaccine injuries + Heb B infection injuries compare to the number of Hep B infection injuries before we started vaccinating?
Has the net result of vaccination been more of fewer injuries? And remember to show your work.
Jackassery? That's clever. Did you make it up?
Becuase, of course, the state has no interest in having a healthy (or even living!) workforce. And, of course, as diseases can't be transmitted from person to person, you have no possible interest in whether or not your neighbour comes down with tuberculosis, right?
If the guy making your morning bagel has a persistent cough that he can't afford to get treated, there's no way that could affect you in any way that might make sense for you to contribute towards his healthcare. It's all very well saying that his boss is *probably* paying *some* of those costs, and passing the cost onto you, but how much effort do you go to to make sure that's true?
Robert Schecter, aka Sid Offit, wants to start his own petition against Skepchic's petition. Here's the kicker. Schecter thinks it was Orac that is "spearheading" the petition.
His research skills are sorely lacking for the smallest of details. Poor troll.
(Bonus, he e-mailed CBS to complain about censoring.)
@ Sid Offal: We've been missing you on this blog; Augie, One Gay Fish, prn and other trolls have been doing all the "heavy lifting" for you.
Stephanie and Patricia have to be the same trolls who are lifting their comments from an anti-vax site. It is entirely too coincidental that they both use the misspelled words, mangled sentences and pseudo-scientific arguments.
We are still awaiting the vaccines "that are injected into the bloodstream"...must be a new type of vaccine, that we never heard of.
i refused to sign the petition. i am still waiting for the BiG PhaRma Rep to show up in a black helicopter and hand me a tremendous bag of cash.
Late to the party, but Cuttlefish - brilliant.
"No one should be threatened by parents learning more about what they are injecting into their children's bloodstreams."
Er - are you really injecting shite into your kids' bloodstreams? Without knowing in advance what it is? You should probably stop.
IM vaccinations by a doc or RN are fine, as are things like SC insulin if they're diabetic.
(I tutor as part of a partnership with a local school - my tutee was telling me, a few weeks ago, how jealous she is of her younger schoolfellows, who get vaccinated for chicken pox. She got it and couldn't sit or lie down comfortably for a week. We swapped chicken pox stories.
I got the HepB vaccine when I started getting serious about tattoos and piercings. I'm careful about finding parlors that have clean prcedure rooms, autoclave their tools, and can show me their autoclave and current autoclave inspection cerificiate, but HepB is just ridiculous in its ability to survive outside of the body.
Needless to say, thanks to mom and dad and the generations who came before, I've never had smallpox, polio, whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, or tetanus (and considering how many rusty nails I've stepped on or been stabbed by, the latter is saying something). Vaccines are made of win.)
Sorry Rob,
No cash for you. Big Pharma paid me in black helicopters. You'd think they'd have more with all the cash they make forcibly vaxing children and then eating their souls but they had a shortage so I have them all...also their briefcases of cash. Sorry!
I can. Of course, in order to make this statement true, I have to redefine the word "research." If, by "research", you mean "read secondhand approved anti-vaccination sources", which is generally what is meant by anti-vaccinationists, then it's a perfectly true statement.
Yet those 20,000 children were victims of a once in a generation epidemic. So why should anyone expect that to happen every year?
The good thing about epidemics is that you know in advance when a rubella epidemic is coming so you can choose not to be pregnant that year.
You know, it's really too bad that the sign was put up by Mercola and NVIC. I really have no problem with the message the sign shows - parents SHOULD get information about vaccines.
Oh, I have a problem with the first panel. "Vaccines: Know the Risks." There's a certain... something missing.
@wintermute
Any relation to Homulus?
Bagel boyâs boss needs to tell him to go home. If heâs noticibly infectious and still working that would actually be a legitimate spere into which the government could enter
@lilady
Thanks, I've missed you too. I was devastated to discover I missed the rip roaring discussion concerning the Brady Bunch and measles.
There is a difference, albeit subtle, between people who have "researched" the issue and people who don't have enough information to make what could reasonably be considered an informed choice.
To wit, the Somali immigrant community in Mpls.-St. Paul, where a recent measles outbreak was traced to a child who imported the disease from Kenya and spread it to children who were either too young to be vaccinated or hadn't been vaccinated because of fears of autism.
According to this article (link below), many Somali mothers are being manipulated by none other than Andrew Wakefield to fear the MMR vaccine and blame their children's autism on the vaccine. It's a great read:
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/04/11/041111-news-measles-1-5/
If there's a higher incidence of autism among Somali children after they immigrate to the U.S., it's concerning. But I'd want to be looking at a whole lot of other possible reasons for this. By insisting that it's gotta be the fault of the vaccines, the vaccine scaremongers are doing a disservice to objective research.
Is it just me or does Sid (Bob Schecter) look like JB Handley with Down's Syndrome?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Schecter/577312975#!/people/Rober…
When did we start letting folks from the shire relocate to the USA?
Wow, that's some seriously puerile taste on display.
@RJ #70 - Easy there. That Down Syndrome joke is not that funny.
Personally, I think he looks like Patrick Swayze... Had Patrick Swayze been an anti-vaxer who went to medical school libraries and decided that was enough of an education to self-proclaim himself an authority in the anti-vax circles.
You can take that as a compliment, Schecter.
72
@RJ #70 - Easy there. That Down Syndrome joke is not that funny.
You're right. Soon after I posted it I realized that saying that anybody looks like JB Handley goes too far. My apologies.
Hmm-- in examining my own meds, I find I must be a shill for Big Generic.
A Few Observations about Sid Offal's Blog:
He opens up the R.I. site this AM, plagiarizes Orac, goes on a rant and puts it out there for comments. (Hint Offal) if two of the three comments slam your viewpoint, that's bad.
If the third comment is by you, that's very bad.
Offal, if you are posting more frequently (5) on this blog that you plagiarized this AM, that's just very, very, bad.
@RJ #72 - As the kids would say, I LOL'd.
No one deserves such insult, except maybe Schecter. He thinks it's funny to make fun of my name for one year straight. It gets old, Schecter.
Then again, he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "censorship", so I guess words derived from French must be beyond him.
I bet he called his wife his fiance in all his writings before he tricked her into marrying him.
Science Mom,
Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn't dare.
Scared of science, er?
And how exactly do you define the herd, this?http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_popu…
Hepatitis B vaccine ? Children ? Never heard of it as a matter of routine immunizations that children normally recieve . Travelled the world on merchantmen and never had a hepatitis B immunizztion . required or otherwise , and it's not even listen in my W.H.O. shot book ..Don't know if they pose a health risk for the young , just never heard of it .
Please note the all-important word "mice". Maybe you could tell us what vaccines are given to humans intracerebrally or intraperitoneally.
My God, are you dumb.
@Rene
I think that was just one time, after your provocation. Either way, I'm willing to bury the hatchet it you are.
Thingy: What vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream? Please provide citations.
Nope, Mr. Schecter, you've done it on numerous occasions. You keep referring to me in the female gender and then justifying it by writing that my name is Rene, so I must be a woman. Or you write that you're confused and apologize. You keep writing "she" when referring to me. "Chick" when referring to me in your blog. So, no, Schecter, not just one time, and for about a year now.
Then again, maybe your moniker is famous enough now that others are doing the trolling for you.
As anti-vaccine as you are, there is no burying the hatchet. Your goal is clearly defined by your actions and your words, and I and others will not rest until you stop.
p.s. what is "herd immunity " , sounds allright with animals-same species -same locale , but a bit counter-intuitive with humans . Can some one explain that one ?
At any rate I bel;ieve the anti-immunization crowd arew misinformed and misled . Hadn't the British researchers who claimed there was a connection between normal childhood immunizations and autism , been proven incorrect ? Even fraudulent ?
"A vaccine introduced intracerebrally was five to ten times more effective than that given intraperitoneally or intravenously..."
I'm relatively certain there are no vaccines routinely given to children intracerebrally, even if they are more effective. Likewise, I'm relatively certain there are no vaccines given intraperitoneally. (Note to trolls: I'm deliberately understating -- *of course* vaccines aren't injected in children's heads or body cavities!) That being the case, it's no surprise that the third option here, intravenously, isn't used in humans either. This was an experiment on *mice* and doesn't reflect pediatric practice.
Magnetic North, hepatitis b is not as dire for adults as it is for young children. Those who get it young tend to get the chronic form of the disease. Read more here.
@Rene, I think you are mistaken. For example today's chick comment was in reference to your saying skepCHICK and not Orac was "spearheading" these efforts. (skepchick = chick). Give me one other reference and I'll concede the point. And I'm not anti-vaccine. I'm anti-compulsory vaccine.
Th1Th2:
Citation required.
Magnetic North, here is a video on herd immunity.
Thingy is exhibiting the standard level of dishonest/idiocy.
No human vaccine is given IV.
I'm anti-compulsory vaccine.
Well, given that the U.S. has no compulsory vaccines, what are you bitching about? A novel sense of "compulsory," perhaps? "Mandatory"? "Too strongly recommended"?
No, Robert, you ARE anti-vaccine. Your word games don't work. Your rants clearly demonstrate that you dream of a world in which the public health system collapses under the guise of freedom of choice, safe vaccines, and informed consent.
You know very damn well that there is nothing in the known universe that is 100% safe, but less than 100% safe equals 100% evil to you.
You know that no one in the United States is being forced to be vaccinated. The vaccine requirements for schools are for the safety of us all. If someone doesn't want to vaccinate, then we have the right to keep them away from places of mass gatherings. But you write about forced vaccinations, police states, and vaccine cults.
And you know that we are all given vaccine information sheets when we get our shots, clearly outlining the risks and benefits, but that's not enough to you and your friends. You want a list of ingredients, and you want to call those ingredients by names that you know will scare people away. Never do you mention the concentrations or other natural sources of those ingredients. (Formaldehyde is made by the liver under certain circumstances. Squalene is in many hand creams.)
No, Robert, we're not going to play that game. You know you are an anti-vaxer. I'm an Epidemiologist. We're are not the same.
@Narad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
Schooling is compulsory for all children in the United States, but the age range for which school attendance is required varies from state to state
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497722/pdf/16134564.pdf
Laws requiring children to be vaccinated before school entry have helped the United States achieve high overall vaccination rates.
So we have compulsory schools and compulsory vaccination to attend those compulsory schools yet no compulsory vaccination.
And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_in_the_United_States
lilady,
For beginners:
Let me guess, your next question would be that vaccines are not injected directly into the regional lymph nodes and spleen.
You're a nurse right? What a shame.
Th1Th2, you said "You said "Intravenous pertussis vaccine and you wouldn't dare."
Injecting in the muscle and just below the skin is not intravenous. Diffusing slowly into the bloodstream from the muscle or from just below the skin is not intravenous.
Now a cite for your claim of "Intravenous pertussis vaccine."
Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.
Go Stephanie! Did you hear about the poor kid in Australia who was inadvertently vaccinated with the Gardasil vaccine and now has leukemia? Gross. Oh, but it could be a coincidence I hear you crying. Ya, and monkeys might fly out of my butt, too.
Thank you for posting this. I immediately sent an e-mail to make sure this helpful ad is run.
I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines, and on the advice of my pediatrician, nurse practitioner, and chiropractor have not vaccinated my children. They are much healthier than many of their vaccinated friends.
I feel it's important for people to be aware of the possible dangers before they subject their children (or themselves) to medical treatments of any kind.
Thanks for the heads-up, Orac. When my son was diagnosed with autism, it was a wake-up call for me - anti-vaccine propaganda stopped being something I could ignore as relatively unimportant nonsense. I'll sign the petition tonight.
@Narad
Compulsory school + compulsory vaccination to go to school = compulsory vaccination
@Rene
I don't want a list of ingredients. I don't want safer vaccines (I think that under the current system they're as safe as they're likely to get)And I don't expect 100% safety. As I've said before I just don't see the risk reward favoring vaccines. But as to those who see it differently, I encourage them to vaccinate. Regardless, it seems were irreconcilably divided on this issue.
Valesa:
Pertussis killed ten babies in California last year. Knowing this, along with the eight kids being hospitalized in Minneapolis with measles last month: Could you please tell us your evidence that the risks of the vaccines far outweigh that of the diseases?
Please give the cites from the PubMed index the research that shows the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Also give the cites showing that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Thank you.
Jen, lots of kids got leukemia before there were vaccines (read Emperor of All Maladies, it starts off with attempts to cure leukemia). There is no evidence that the vaccine the child got accidentally is associated with leukemia.
CG,
Are you sure?
The call to sign the petition has been picked up by Wired magazine. Link on my 'nym. With this extra publicity, they are up to 1500 signatures.
Mephistopholes, you are so full of crap even saying, per post 27, that "no one here ever said there couldn't be serious side effects with vaccines." You "science/research people" dance all around it and use stupid terms like "autistic like symptoms" and encephalopathy and pretend that those really don't equate to vaccine injuries. Why don't YOU make a list of all possible problems that could happen as a possible consequence of being given a vaccine ( and try to think of some real life scenarios- like being given the wrong vaccine -like the poor baby given Gardasil instead of dpt, low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc., kids with immune problems being given too many vaccines at once, sick kids being given vaccines, nurses giving someone a vaccine in a multi-dose vial and not shaking it up enough, not refrigerating vaccines that need to be. Thanks in advance ; )
P.S. and that list of potential vaccine problems is just looking at other variables, assuming that all the actual ingredients in a vaccine are safe (which no study has demonstrated). So fine, call in about the ad but trust me, when you guys see the range of problems with the kids these days (either your own or your grandkids) you will realize what a bunch dick heads you have been. And if you don't have kids, you don't even get a say.
Jen:
Please show those are common problems in Canada, USA, Australia, Japan and Europe. I mean more than once.
Also, what pediatric vaccines are still commonly given that are in multi-dose vials in Canada, USA and Europe? Provide cites. Thank you.
Jen thinks "encephalopathy" is a stupid term and that using it to describe a condition is denying an injury?
Absolutely, Robert.
Jen spouted that "low-birth weight babies (premies) given hep b, dpt etc" was bad. In what universe??? Do you really want preemies and their crappy lungs getting pertussis?
My low birth-weight (2 lb, 1 oz) 27 weeker was given her HepB at 2 months (when she was 5 lbs), and two days later the normal 2 month vaxes as recommended by the CDC. Besides the delay for her birth HepB vax she was completely vaxed on-schedule BECAUSE she was a preemie; we were most worried about her lungs, as some VPDs would wreck havoc with them if she got sick. She also got anti-RSV antibody shots for two winters because she was high-risk.
She never got a VPD, nor RSV. Because she was vaccinated? IDK but that's the "problem" with vaccines, isn't it? When they work, nothing happens that we can see.
Sid, public school is not compulsory. School itself is. You may choose public, private, or parochial schooling, or you can home school. Do all private schools require you to vaccinate? How about the parochial ones? Is there a mandatory vaccine list for home schoolers?
@D Lurker
States have mandatory vaccine requirements for daycare - which are private - regular private schools and homeschooling. For example
Under a new law that takes effect in 2011, California middle and high school students must be vaccinated against pertussis (whooping cough). Beginning July 1, 2011, all students entering 7th through 12th grades in both public and private schools will be required to show proof of a âTdap*â booster shot before starting school. This requirement applies to all public and private schools. The new requirement was signed into law earlier this year by Governor Schwarzenegger.
or in Virginia
Vaccinations/Immunizations
Before enrolling your child in school, you will need to provide proof of immunization. Homeschooled students are subject to the same laws concerning vaccinations as public and private school students (§22.1-271.4). Public and private schools require children entering school to show proof of immunization against various communicable diseases. Religious or medical exemptions may apply in certain cases (§32.1-46).
No links since they're being held up. Just google the text
Signed the petition.
Enkidu
To pair your anecdote. My 2 lbs. 9oz. preemie never received ANY vaccine. Even with a RSV "scare" in the NICU. SHE was the scare because SHE had a "runny nose".
Almost 4 yo now. No medication EVER. Even after being at the M.D. for an ear infection and a 105.3 degree temperature. M.D says, after learning we don't vaccinate, "well you don't have to give her the antibiotics (which were already prescribed and unecessary) but at least give her Tylenol. She recovered completely with non-"science" based medicine care.
"Thanks, doc. We'll call you when we need you again."
Thingy: I'm still waiting for "intravenous administration of pertussis" citation. Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward. Done correctly, the PPD raises a small wheal beneath the skin. It is not a vaccine; it is called the Mantoux test and done to screen people for exposure to the tuberculosis bacterium. The patient returns to the doctor or nurse for a reading of the size of induration, if any, within 72 hours. Doctors and nurses also test people for allergies, using the intradermal route, to inject a small amount of an antigen, to test for reactions.
Thingy, we know you have "a thing" about antigens and antibodies...being the same thing...in your mind...but they aren't.
Give it up Thingy, all vaccines are injected using the subcutaneous or intramuscular route.
@ Enkiku: Thanks for sharing your experiences with modern medicine; we are delighted that your daughter is so healthy.
Please ignore the nasty troll.
lilady,
Please ignore the nurse. She just has a bachelors degree in nursing and biased experience as a local health department worker. She's not a NICU nurse.
You have the same weakness as Chris, Lilady.
Intradermal means within or between the layers of the skin. And what lies beneath the skin are the subcutaneous tissue and the muscles.
And neither of those are intravenous.
@augie
Hey hypocrite, you still haven't answered the question on your education, haven't you?
Chris,
It's intramuscular and the vaccine contents are carried into the bloodstream.
Again, it is intramuscular. You want a faster route into the bloodstream than IM or SC then go for the IV. Nobody is stopping you however the package inserts do not recommend IV for humane reason (hint: can be a lethal injection). Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid. You deny this and you are nothing but an uneducated person who always pretends to know science.
Thingy in the nursing/medical profession "intradermal" injections are only used as I outlined above; but you wouldn't know that, having received all your education from Google U.
Chris and I are still waiting (for hours), for the specific names now, of the vaccines that are given intravenously.
Augie, Where did YOU go to School? Where are you gainfully employed? No doubt, still on the dole, living in mommy's basement, caring for "imaginary" children.
dedicated lurker,
You can also add the different blood vessels (capillaries, arteries, veins) which are found beneath the skin. Do you have any problem with that?
@ Dedicated Lurker: Thingy might add sub-lingual, skin patches, creams and suppositories, which eventually get into the bloodstream...but still cannot provide us with the specific names of the vaccines which are injected intravenously. I wonder what package inserts he is referring to that specifically "do not recommend IV for humane reasons"?
lilady,
Anybody with a brainstem knows that PPD is injected within or between the layers of the skin and NOT beneath the skin as you have outlined above. You are very dangerous old nurse both in theories and more so in practice.
I don't mind really if you admitted your mistake.
Thingy "beneath the skin" to describe intra-dermal testing using antigens is proper lingo in the medical and nursing professions; again you are getting all your lessons from Google U. How many intra-dermal injections have you given? For that matter how many IM or SC injections have you given? I don't think you have ever given any injections, with your limited education and lack of credentialing/licensing in the medical field. You cannot even tell us which specific vaccines are given "intravenously" or which vaccine inserts specifically don't "recommend IV for humane reasons." (hint: none of the vaccine inserts recommend other routes, such as sub-lingual or via rectum, either)
When you take some courses in immunology, epidemiology and other (non survey type) courses that qualify you to sit for medical or nursing boards and pass the boards, come back here. Otherwise keep plugging away on your web browser.
other routes, such as sub-lingual or via rectum
"Suppository" does not mean "the room where I dream stuff up".
... but paying for the treatment of said cough is not legitimate, right, Sid?
So the government has the power to tell a sick man "You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care" and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man's food and medical care?
Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?
Is that REALLY what you think?
Intradermal means beneath the skin and is only used to inject a small amount (0.1 ml) of an antigen such as TB PPD (Purified Protein Derivative) with a thin needle bevel facing upward.
I was under the impression that rabies shots are administered intradermally these days (presumably to present the antigen to the langerhans cells -- I haven't looked it up). Certainly an advance on the old intraperitoneal form of rabies shots.
In that connection, I have noticed that the homeopaths and naturopaths are not offering a 'natural' alternative to rabies injections, even though there are homeopathic substitutes for every other form of immunisation, and despite the purported efficacy of naturopathy. Why is this?
I personally know children who have been harmed by vaccines
Let me guess. A carton of the stuff fell on their heads from a shelf.
Remember, you are not allowed to redefine words.
You people are all politically-sound and inclusive and all so you say "So-and-so is redefining words". I find it more parsimonious to leave the words with their consensus meanings and say "So-and-so is lying".
All we ask, is for SAFER vaccines, not that they be eliminated. We ask for fair compensation in the courts- where only one in six cases actually wins because we can't afford to fight the system for an average of 10 YEARS
Every parent must research & question everything that directly affects their babies. This is a parent's right!
No doctor, government, vaccine/drug pusher, anti-vaccinationist can govern or dictate this issue & enforce their views on every parent or else we might as well be living in a tyrannical dictatorship!
If a person were to say that he/she knew better or that his/her views are right, then that may be so only in his/her own opinion & is definitely not argument enough to allow for him/her to infringe action on to a parent. And no amount of college/university degrees (medical or otherwise) will convince a parent to do something that they do not wish to do...
The right way forward however could be to present all the facts & leave parents to make their choices...
This is undebateably the perogative of a free man/woman because as intelligent beings, we are all capable of making informed decisions & we are all allowed our opinions.
As a parent, I know that I have a choice & no one, no matter which side of the fence they play dirty from, will stop me from exercising it on myself or my own, period!!!
augustine writes:
No medication EVER. Even after being at the M.D. for an ear infection and a 105.3 degree temperature.
I sincerely hope you are making up this episode. Refusing to consider administering antibiotics to stop an infection that had the potential to result in permanent hearing loss is nothing to be proud of. Thank goodness (if what you say is true) there apparently was no permanent damage. Though if it turns out at some point in the future that your child did suffer hearing loss, I'm sure you'll proudly tell her (or write it down for her if she can't hear you) that you didn't submit to those doctors who know nothing.
By the way, you don't say whether you administered the Tylenol to bring down her 105.3 fever. Did you, or did it violate your principles to use medication produced by Big Pharma to lower a fever that had the potential to spike and cause seizures or brain damage?
HRIG (Rabies Immuno-globulin) is administered surrounding a wound inflicted by a known rabid animal or an animal that is not captured and tested. It is not a vaccine. Rabies vaccine is administered in a series of 5 IM shots, post exposure to a known rabid animal or an animal with unknown rabies status. Rabies vaccine is always given IM in the deltoid muscle in children and adults and IM in the anterio-lateral muscle of the thigh of infants with suspected or known rabies exposure.
Thingy posted a few weeks ago and showed his confusion about antigen being different than antibody, IV versus IM infusions, HRIG being different than Human Rabies Vaccine and Tetanus IG being different than Tetanus Vaccine. He also advanced his "theories" about post-exposure prophylaxis. We wasted posting time on him then and his basic lack of knowledge about the diseases, ignorance of the basics of bacteriology and general idiocy.
@ Herr Doktor Bimler: Actually Thingy dreams things in his minimally functioning brain; his ass is where he pulls his factoids from
OMG! I laughed out loud at work and now people want to know what is so funny. @99, TH1 posted about IV typhoid vaccine from 1917????? The intravenous injection of typhoid vaccines is being used in the developed typhoid fever (E. Fraenkel, 1876; Gay and Chickering, 1916; Hektoen, 1916) and especially against rheumatic fever. It often induces a crisis and prompt recovery. The action is probably not due to specific antibodies, for similar effects are produced by other vaccines, albumoses, etc. (J.L. Miller and Lusk, 1916; Jobling, 1917). It is apparently a result of the fever.
I can't stop laughing. Ummm...Thing...medicine has advanced a little bit in the 90+ years since then.
I don't think little augie has a "nearly 4" year old child. His imaginary child story is amusing but not really very believable to THIS nurse who has NICU and nursery experience. But, little augie never responded to my previous post any way calling him a liar and he hasn't proved me wrong yet. So, I don't believe anything he posts anymore anyway.
When the definition of safer is "never has any complications in anyone ever, AND cures autism with 100% efficacy" that IS demanding that they be eliminated.
The OAP was an exceptional case, purely due to the fact that the claimants were allowed to present unsubstantiated speculation, and given many years to come up with MORE garbage (at their own request). Normal cases - you know, the ones that aren't just made up for the benefit of the lawyers and supposed "experts" with minimal (or no) qualifications - are much faster. So this is another outright lie.
Not the point. The point is antivax idiots LYING to parents in ways that are all to likely to KILL the babies in question for NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER!
The fact that the overwhelming mountain of evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccination is opposed by nothing but lies, fraud, and coincidence, on the other hand, should. And DOES convince all parents who are genuinely informed (as opposed to those who are lied to, deceived, and defrauded by the antivax morons).
And yet, you support lying to the parents instead of presenting facts. Why is that?
Golly, Jen, I didn't think I'd said anything all that offensive. One can easily get a list of known possible side effects from the vaccine manufacturers themselves. The one "side effect" that's routinely disputed in this forum is autism, for which there is still insufficient evidence.
If you can point to the posts from Orac or people commenting on the blog that "vaccines never cause any harm whatsoever", I'll modify my statement. Indeed, I'll do it now - there have been a number of posts that specifically say that there are known side effects of some vaccines.
I'm still curious (really, it wasn't sarcastic) about what test is not being done that would prevent vaccine-related injury.
I wonder why auggie doesn't trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?
DL,
That was precisely my thought. If Auggie had a 2lb 9oz preemie that child would never have survived without some serious intervention. Why is giving Tylenol to your child absolutely unthinkable but leaving that child in the care of nurses and doctors in the NICU in an artificial incubator with oxygen, tube feedings, steroids to help lung function (going from lay knowledge, correct me if anything is inaccurate) and more okay?
When I gave my children Acetaminophen for an ear infection it was because they were in screaming pain and I wanted to make them comfortable. It is a stronger parent then me who is willing to watch their child be in that much pain when there is something (nearly side-effect free) to make them feel so much better.
Augustine is a lier, I wouldn't believe a single thing he says. I seriously doubt he has a four-year-old who was born premature, and if he doesn't it is pretty sick that he pretends he does.
Th1Th2:
You were told not to redefine words. You still need to tell us what vaccines are injected into veins (which is what intravenous means), especially evidence of "intravenous administration of pertussis." Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.
Try to pretend you live on Earth, and speak/write standard English (American or UK).
Kristen writes:
It is an unfeeling bully stronger parent than me who is willing to watch their child be in that much pain when there is something (nearly side-effect free) to make them feel so much better.
"I wonder why auggie doesn't trust vaccines, antibiotics, or Tylenol, but was still willing to put their child in an NICU. If science-based medicine is that bad, why would you leave a child in a place that uses the most state of the art of such?"
Dedicated Lurker, I was thinking the exact same thing! My daughter was a pretty healthy two-pounder, but still she needed antibiotics, a spinal tap, surfactant, caffeine, two blood transfusions, and numerous x-rays. Not to mention vent, cpap, and nasal cannula to help her breathe. Kids her gestation often need a lot more, and have to deal with brain bleeds, holes in their hearts, and eye surgery. How did auggie deal with these interventions?
And 105 degree fever? I hope to hell he gave that kid something to bring that thing down. I can't imagine the pain/ misery level of a fever that high.
Chris,
Ever? You and lilady are an embarrassment to science community. So where do vaccine ingredients and antigens go after being deposited into the muscles? Do you still have the whole 0.5ml of Flu shot into your muscle? Did they evaporate into air and magically disappeared? How did vaccines antigens able to migrate and reach the extrafollicular areas of the spleen and lymph nodes if they were in sutu and never left the muscle?This is the time you provide us a real science based evidence rather than uttering nonsense.
So, Th, when you swallow a pill, after it heads into the stomach, gets digested, moves to the small intestine, and gets absorbed into the blood stream, is that considered intravenous? After all, it gets into the blood too.
In the Thing's world, it probably is. After all, he considers himself free to redefine words to suit his argument. I can see it now...
Prosecutor: The defendant murdered the victim in cold blood, in front of fifty witnesses!
Th1Th2: "Murder" means "to hang garlands on," and I never did that, so I am innocent!
That means nothing to me.
It's good to know that no-one ever spread a disease before they were "noticably infectious". That must make the CDC's job trivially easy.
You encounter many people throughout the day, any number of which could be carrying a horrible infections disease. Perhaps they've just just been sent home from work for sneezing on a customer's food; perhaps someone in your office is shedding viruses, but hasn't started showing symptoms yet.
The point is that it is in your interest to ensure that the people around you are as healthy as possible. Why would you *not* want want to spend money towards that goal?
According to Question Everything (@127)
In other words, parenting is impossible, and if anything whatsoever goes wrong, you can blame the parents mother. Because nobody can usefully research everything that directly affects their babies, especially given that they have other important responsibilities, like feeding the babies, and that parents are human and need to sleep.
Or did you in fact research and question the chemicals in the air your children breathe? The materials in all the clothes they wear (including any dyes), the blankets they sleep under, and the breastmilk or formula they drink? Did you "research and question" the advice on how to lay them down for a nap? How thoroughly is a parent expected to research the water their children are bathed in, the materials of the diapers, the amount of sunlight they get, and the effects of ambient noise?
Yes, parents can and do study many things, and that's a good thing. But "must" and "everything" are an impossible standard. Or are vaccines somehow different from radiation damage (a.k.a. the tradeoff betwee sunburn and vitamin D), air pollution, and so on?
dedicated lurker,
What do I have to refute if oral drugs are being absorbed within the veins of the GI tract ? That's a no-brainer.
Th1Th2 - did I just see you argue that:
- all intramuscular injections are really intravenous.
- all oral medicine is really intravenous.
- all inhaled medicines are really intravenous.
- all trans-dermal patches are really intravenous.
- all topical medicines are really intravenous.
That, in short, by your definition of intravenous anything that might enter the bloodstream is really intravenous?
Th1Th2, I have a bit of advice, something I learned from painful experience. You don't always have to be right. After you claimed that vaccines are delivered intravenously and you were shown to be wrong, the proper response was to apologize and correct your errors, not attempt to redefine "intravenous".
My only request - please, please, please do NOT let Thing become a nurse, doctor or anyone who does patient care. The death toll would be horrendous.
And even in states such as Virgina, homeschooled children are still subject to compulsory vaccination; so what are you talking about?
OK, I wasn't aware of the Virginia requirement. Leaving aside the seemingly trivial religious exemption, what's the penalty, which is to say, the compulsion?
Beamup,
Since you never injected yourself with Tequila therefore you can tell the police officer you're not driving under the influence and you're innocent eh?
I didn't know I ate intravenously. You learn something new every day. *IV burp*
Also amusing to see the Thing spout garbage entirely unrelated, in any way whatsoever, to the post he's purportedly responding to.
Me: 1+1=2. 1+1!=giraffe
Th1Th2: Blueberry factions bleek rats woosingly.
Th1Th2:
Only if intoxicated was defined as "having had alcohol injected directly into the bloodstream". Since it isn't, no.
The body reacts very differently to the same substance if injected into muscles or the bloodstream, so the distinction is not trivial.
O'Brien,
If you want to argue with me then refute the fact that the pertussis vaccine in #77 and the typhoid vaccine in #99 were given intravenously and were absorbed within the veins. Put up or shut up.
Of course, Thingy is well aware of this. S/he earlier stated that (for some, as-yet unspecified drug, the manufacturors
Of course, she used this as proof that those drugs were being used IV, so coherence doesn't seen be be hir strong point...
The pertussis vaccine in 77 was given intravenously to *mice* experimentally. On my planet, mice are not human beings. The typhoid treatment (I'm not sure it was really being used as a vaccine since it was given to people who already had typhoid)in 99 was given intravenously to people prior to 1920. On my planet, it is 2011, medicine has changed a lot in 90 years, and Americans are not routinely vaccinated against typhoid.
Refuted by many commenters.
#77 - "mice" - remember? What about those vaccines that were injected into the brain?
#99 - a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever. This is now treated with penicillin.
Neither of these have anything to do with vaccination to prevent disease.
You really are dumb.
Dawn (triskelethecat):
Or become a parent. Though from the sMothering forum Narad linked to, she may actually have very young child perhaps under a year old. In that case I fear for that child.
Even if the child manages to survive long enough to start school, I wonder how well he/she will do with a parent who redefines words to suit her purposes. Heaven forbid that a child question such a parent, or even as a toddler wanders off the sidewalk to the dirt.
That is where such obstinate stubbornness and being so close minded can be absolutely frightening.
@Mike Ralston
So the government has the power to tell a sick man "You are not permitted to work in order to earn enough money to buy food or pay for medical care" and then does NOT have the power to pay for that man's food and medical care?
There's a difference between power and the moral authority to do something. Seems the state has the "power to do just about anything. Anyway, the government has the right to tell a man not to rob a bank because it violates the rights of others just as it can act to stop one from knowingly acting in a way in which one could expect to transmit an illness and harm others.
---------------
Am I correct, Sid? Is that what you believe is legitimate? The government can force someone to be unable to earn money, but cannot force everyone else to pay a tiny fraction of a cent to care for that same person?
Tiny fraction of a cent? If that were the case, we wouldn't be 14 trillion dollars in debt
This sick man should have prepared for a potential illness before becoming ill. But then you'll say affordable health care is impossible to obtain. The solution is to remove the government from the equation so this person doesn't have to buy a policy with coverage he really doesn't need or want.
It's wrong for the government to intervene in the health care market in the first place and it's wrong to take the of resources one person to pay for the care of another
The moral solution would be to start unwinding the governments role while continuing to provide care for the truly needy.
And, since it sounds like this guy just has a cough, he can take a week off, pay to see a doctor (I don't see a case for an expensive stay in ICU) or find a job that doesn't involve food preparation
bruce,
I might have missed it. So what you and the rest have refuted so far? That you're denying vaccines can be given intravenously or are you refuting the fact that vaccine manufacturers do not recommend IV administration?
Jenner was and so are his followers.
When I had a typhoid shot I recall it being intramuscular, not intravenous. According to Wikipedia, this dead vaccine is injected either under the skin or into a muscle. According to http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a607028.html there is also a live oral vaccine. Anything referring to an intravenous treatment would seem to have lost relevance.
Th1Th2 - based on a non-exhaustive review of various injected vaccines currently provided (and recalling that I am not a doctor and do not play one on TV), I don't find any current vaccinations that are recommended to be injected intravenously.
Mephistopheles O'Brien, Th1Th2 lives in her own special version of Htrae, with her own special dictionary where she gets to define the words. Reality is what she wants it to be, which makes her so very special.
Chris,
Where's your proof Chris? Show them the evidence that you have accumulated all the injected vaccine doses into your muscle and that they have not gone into the vein whatsoever as you proudly claim.
You are such an embarrassment.
Yeah, this is why we have actual doctors instead of know-nothings on the internet making these diagnoses.
Have you heard of, for example, tuberculosis? Do you know what the primary early symptom is?
Chris,
I know, and I hope you'll forgive me if I try once more.
Th1Th2 - In order for something to be an intravenous injection (or to have been administered intravenously), it must satisfy two conditions:
- a needle must puncture a vein (and note that a capillary is not considered a vein for this purpose); and
- a substance must be injected through that needle directly into the vein.
An intramuscular or subcutaneous injection is not intravenous (and vice versa) by definition.
Boy, Thingy sure is bringing back memories for me today. IV Alcohol. Haven't thought about that one in YEARS! It used to be used to stop preterm labor. Not fun - the women usually were very unhappy drunks. But, it would often stop labor for a while.
Um...Thingy...since EVERYTHING you eat, drink, rub on your skin, etc is eventually absorbed into your circulatory system (not necessarily by the veins, usually venuoles and arterioles, capillaries, etc), what's your point? Yes, vaccines do eventually enter the circulatory system, in order to stimulate the immune system. Then, like most things, they are processed and excreted. HOWEVER, that does NOT equal intravenous administration.
Now, be an intelligent person, quit changing the meanings of things (Humpty Dumpty is fiction, you know), and be honest.
Brien,
Is there any reason as to why they don't recommend IV injection?
So you're saying vaccine ingredients stay permanently into the muscles and never get absorbed into nearby veins either purposely or inadvertently?
Yes, Thingy. There usually IS a reason that medications/vaccines/whatever are given the way they are. The speed of absorption differs in routes. An IV drug is immediately available and the body usually breaks it down in the liver/kidneys/etc quite quickly. IM/oral/topical drugs are absorbed and processed more slowly. Giving a vaccine IV would probably mean the body does not have time to create an immune response before the small amount of usually non-live antigens are broken down and excreted.
Now, more questions? That one was actually an intelligent question. Good Thing. I'm proud of you.
"Show them the evidence that you have accumulated all the injected vaccine doses into your muscle and that they have not gone into the vein whatsoever as you proudly claim."
Chris clearly makes no such claim.
Stop lying about other people.
Stop lying about other people to their face.
Stop lying about definitions.
Stop pretending you have a clue.
Stop pretending you are here for any serious purpose.
No reasonable person would carry on in the way you do unless they have seriously misunderstood the subject, or unless they are here for a malicious purpose.
You cannot be seen as reasonable or honest. You can only be seen as a malicious liar.
The entire National Debt is due to healthcare costs? All those foreign wars are free of cost?
Is that really what you're saying?
Regarding the word "intravenous:" Th1Th2 is probably the densest person I have ever seen. O.M.G.
Th1Th2,
I'm sure there is a reason they don't recommend intravenous injection. There may well be multiple reasons.
I make no claim as to what happens to a substance once it is injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly.
O' Brien,
I know what you mean. In order for vaccine/drug ingredients to ENTER the bloodstream, parenteral injections can be given IM, SC or IV. Now do vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream or stay in sutu in the muscle or subcutaneous tissue?
Thingy, I am not a docter at all, and even I know that the word "intravenously" means injected DIRECTLY into a vein. By directly we (as in everyone) means that the end of the needle is in the vein, and the contents move directly from the needle to the vein. If it is injected into musscle tissue, or or anywhere onther then DIRECTLTY INTO THE VEIN, it is NOT considered intravenous. Even if it eventually ends up in the vein, it is NOT intravenously if the END OF THE NEEDLE IS NOT IN THE VEIN. Otherwise, even eating would be considered intravenous.
By the way, confine your disscussion to within the last 10 years. 90 years ago doesn't count.
(apoligies for the all caps, but I don't know how to use bold text)
I guess I don't get it. If intramuscular is also IV, then why stop there? Wouldn't it also be "intracranial" since the vaccines also end up in the brain, too?
I mean, why not complain about injecting vaccines into the brain? Or the heart? Or lungs? Because that makes as much sense.
According to Thingy's definition, the tacos I ate for supper count as intravenous feeding because the contituents didn't remain solely in my stomach and traces of it entered my bloodstream.
I thereby demonstrate that the definition he's using is too broad to be meaningful, and suggest that it should therefor be deprecated.
-- Steve
Plus, I'm doing intravenous breathing right now!
"You are such an embarrassment. "
Pretty ironic from the poster whose "everything is ultimately IV" claims are destined to become a classic punchline here, so overused that I will get tired of it and eventually cconsider it lame. Until then, however, I will continue to take my jelly beans intraveneously.
The sad part is that this isn't even really Thingy's fight. Research savvy Stephanie was the one who opened the subject and thingy stupidly tried to defend it.
For you folks that don't currently understand the dangers of vaccines and also the longterm affects caused by them(which is admitted in the inserts), I hope you don't have to learn the hard way just how dangerous and useless they truly are.
Take care, and proceed with caution at least.
Peace
Spencer, if vaccines were in fact, dangerous and useless, what happened to polio? Why aren't we having epidemics of it anymore?
Spencer:
The package inserts are "cover your ass" bits written by lawyers. They list something even if it happened once, and perhaps was not actually due to the vaccine.
Spencer, do tell us using literature available in our local medical school library what actual evidence shows that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella (last month eight kids were hospitalized with measles). Come on. Give us real evidence.
He continues:
Here is some data on the incidence of measles between 1912 to the 1990s. Please tell us why the rate of measles dropped 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970:
From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
Year.... Rate per 100000 of measles
1912 . . . 310.0
1920 . . . 480.5
1925 . . . 194.3
1930 . . . 340.8
1935 . . . 584.6
1940 . . . 220.7
1945 . . . 110.2
1950 . . . 210.1
1955 . . . 337.9
1960 . . . 245.4
1965 . . . 135.1
1970 . . . . 23.2
1975 . . . . 11.3
1980 . . . . . 5.9
1985 . . . . . 1.2
1990 . . . . .11.2
1991 . . . . . .3.8
1992 . . . . . .0.9
1993 . . . . . .0.1
1994 . . . . . .0.4
1995 . . . . . .0.1
1996 . . . . . .0.2
1997 . . . . . . 0.1
Now do vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream or stay in sutu in the muscle or subcutaneous tissue?
The 3rd alternative, of course, is "neither" -- the antigens and ingredients are metabolised, or taken up by immune-system cells, or otherwise disposed of.
In the case of pre-exposure intradermal injections for typhoid and rabies, the antigens apparently drain into the lymphatic system where they encounter CD4 cells and T-cells and do their job (I had to look this up).
If only I was sure that the question showed a genuine desire to be informed.
MI Dawn,
Probably? Oh shoot. It's called anaphylaxis, a type of immune reaction that has an acute onset which can lead to shock and death.
Which would be why we don't do that. Thanks for proving yourself wrong.
O'Brien,
If you ask Chris, she'll tell you these injected substances stay as is.
Seriously, you don't wanna make a claim because you don't wanna get embarrassed for not knowing (or refusing to admit) that vaccine ingredients could enter the bloodstream.
There's no magic here. Everything is (basic) science.
No, no-one's claiming that. Chris (along with everyone who isn't you) is claiming that just because it eventually gets to the bloodstream doesn't qualify it for the label "intravenous".
Dedj,
Oh yeah? Below is what appears to be Chris' infamous claim.
I know she is so humiliated to even recognize her own claim (self-rejection) that she won't even bother discussing it. Too bad.
I have been sitting here catching up on the last few hours of this thread and my jaw keeps dropping involuntarily. Holy crap! I've never read anything so stupid that wasn't a poe or parody.
I'm going to go get some I.V. fresh air and try to rid myself of my sudden feelings of shame for being the same species as a person this willfully imbecilic.
MI Dawn,
So you deny intravenous vaccinations in #77 and #99 to have ever happened?
Yes, I said "Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein."
Look at the tense, the word is "is", which is present tense. That means at the moment. That means at the moment the needle is being used and the syringe is being pressed. I did not use the future version of "will not go into the vein."
At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form). At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines "intravenous", it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine.
Stop torturing the English language.
It occurs to me that a tour through Th1Th2's mind would be like going on a carnival fun house ride.
Pablo,
They did intracerebral pertussis vaccination. Check #77.
Th1Th2:
No, we are denying that they have nothing to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011. But you have been told that more than once.
Again, stop torturing English. While it may work on Htrae, you are looking like an complete idiot here on Earth.
"mice" - remember?
Oh hell, you're beyond hope.
Goofus presents a fascinating opportunity to examine the anti-logical world of an anti-vaxxer's mind. Goofus apparently thinks that we should take as a given that it is not, could not be coincidence for a child given a Gardasil vaccine to develop acute myeloid leukemia nearly two years later. Because it could not be coincidence, Goofus argues, it must therefore be cause-and-effect.
But let's look at what Goofus' rejection of coincidence as a possible explanation implies. If there was no cause-and-effect relationship between Gardasil and AML, we should expect that there would still be cases of people who receive Gardasil and then develop AML within the following two years. Even if only one person in fifty received Gardasil and only one person in every hundred thousand developed AML, we would still expect one in every five million to have both. That's what coincidence is, things which can happen individually happening together even without a cause-and-effect relationship!
But when Goofus says that it cannot be coincidence for this youngster to develop AML, what she is saying is that AML never develops other than as a result of Gardasil. Which, since AML has been around for several times as many years as Gardasil has been, is obviously false!
wintermute,
Please check #117 and look for the word humane. Good thing you're not a mouse (you can type but unable to follow the thread) or you'll be disposed of quickly.
It is a choice,end of story!
Every so often I hear the term "intravenous drug user". But since, as Th1Th2 has so cogently demonstrated, absolutely every avenue into the body is intravenous, a drug user is an IV drug user whether he smokes his drugs, snorts them, eats them, rubs them on his skin, uses them as suppositories, injects them just under the skin, or shoots them into a vein, it's odd, really, that the authorities speak of IV drug users as if they are somehow different from other drug users.
By the way, Th1Th2, I assume that on your planet there is a term for the method of drug administration that involves places a needle in a vein and injecting substances into that vein. What is that term?
You're right. I should have said "That would be why we don't do that in humans." Of course, if we'd never done the mouse studies, we'd not know that there was a reason not to inject them intravenously; would you prefer that scenario?
My apologies for thinking you could infer* context from other people's posts.
* In this case, I'm using "infer" to mean "read the plainly written words".
This all seems to be a lot of effort to get around Stephanie's plain, unambiguous and completely wrong statement at #33 about "injecting [vaccines] into their children's bloodstreams". Any references to experiments with mice or vaccination methods in 1917 (not to mention quibbling about the long-term destination of substances administered elsewhere) can safely be replaced with the word 'wibble' without becoming any less relevant.
Th1Th2
Ummm...no. The reasons I don't make a claim are:
a) the last biology class I took was some time ago;
b) that class did not discuss this level of detail; and
c) as I don't work with this every day, I can't say in detail how the body processes an intramuscular or subcutaneous injection.
I suppose the various ingredients could enter the bloodstream. And?
LW - I forgot suppositories, possibly a Freudian reaction on my part. Thanks for the reminder.
Myself:
Aaagh... stupid double negative! We are denying they have anything to do with the way vaccines are given in 2011.
I must be mixed up with Th1Th2's malapropisms.
Chris,
So in reference to the original comments made on #34 herewith:
herr doktor bimler,
Neither? You're kidding right? If it is so, then I assume you're a bloodless creature made up of lymph or just pure gas. Which one is it?
Kristen
Don't worry. By the power vested in me by my dogs (who think I am Napoleon), I have re-defined homo sapiens in such a that it does not include thingy. I had considered an alternative way of re-defining things so you were not con-specific with thingy , but that alternative would have made it advisable for you to stay indoors during hunting season. As an added bonus with the re-definitional strategy that I chose, if thingy persists in its willful ignorance it can be considered furniture and sold.
Thingy - perhaps you can find a junkie who can educate you on the fine points of the benefits and drawbacks of the intravenous administration of drugs.
LW,
Cut the nonsense. Check #77 and #99.
Well, if you define "injected into the bloodstream" as "eventually arriving there", notwithstanding the time between the injection of the vaccine components into a muscle and their slow release into adjacent tissues...
I think we should call a car an instantaneous teleporting gate. Same business.
Like vaccines and vaccinators, keep the drugs and drug pushers out of children's reach.
They are dangerous.
No, because if a vaccine is injected intramuscularly, it is injected into a muscle, not a blood vessel. Similarly, if it is injected subcutaneously, it is injected into the separation between the dermis and the interior of the body, not a blood vessel. According to Th1Th2's logic, if I pick up a spent bullet from a firing range, I have just been shot in the fingers.
Heliantus,
No, they are not the same. Imagine without the bloodstreams, vaccination will be even more barbaric than we have hitherto since it will involve incision of the lymph nodes or the spleen to deliver the vaccine ingredients. Instantaneous teleporting gate? No. Brutality, yes.
Th1Th2:
Bullshit. I never said any such thing. And when I used a double negative, I subsequently corrected myself. I wrote: "At no point does the needle enter the vein. It is where the needle goes that defines "intravenous", it has nothing to do with the eventual destination of the vaccine."
Th1Th2, you are no longer allowed to re-interpret anything I write. You seem to have a limited grasp of basic English vocabulary and grammar.
The vaccination needle never enters a vein. Therefore it is not intravenous. End of story. Get over it.
(if you do indeed have a child, I really really hope that some sane person removes he/she from your care for the child's safety, both mentally and physically)
Here is the updated website of all recommended childhood vaccines which includes THE PROPER way to immunize:
Administering Vaccines: Dose, Route, Site and Needle Size
Imagine without roads, cars will be required to be airlifted to deliver the occupants to their destinations...
Imagine I drive to the airport, park my car, get out, pocket my car keys, walk through the terminal, and board the plane. According to Th1Th2's logic, I just drove onto the plane.
Brutality, yes.
And, finally, the return to the rape analogy.
Put another nickel in
The Th1-elodeon
All I want is purity
No mayo! in my! vein-o!
@ the Thing 209
Ah, I forgot. You don't get metaphors and sarcasm rebounds on you.
So it will be brutality and more barbarism to use surgery to "instantaneously teleport" vaccine ingredients into the spleen or the lymph nodes. You know, I think you are right. Thanks goodness we don't do it (yes, that was sarcasm).
Um. Maybe that's why some slower, roundabout ways were designed, like intramuscular injections. You know, ways to inject a foreign substance with less brutality compared to a direct injection into the bloodstream.
lilady, you are allowed to post the web addresses here. The titles are helpful, but the link addresses are more convenient. You don't need to imbed them (though the titles you provide do make them the top of the Google list). Here it is:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p3085.pdf
Wow! It even has pictures! So, Th1Th2, look at the pretty pictures. Tell us which one shows the end of the needle going into a vein.
Tell us, Th1Th2, what is your first language? Because it certainly is not English.
Chris: I'm working on my linking skills...great public health
nurse but not so great at techie stuff..
I knew you would enjoy the site and I had it all along...just playing with a troll here (who doesn't know that the Latin phrase is "in situ" not "in sutu".
Chris,
Oh really. Check it again.
Are you saying the vaccination needle never enters a highly vascularized body part like the deltoid muscle which has an abundant blood supply? Instead, like lilady's infamous beneath-the-skin PPD, you would recommend that vaccines must be injected into fibrotic tissues? Wherever did you learn such technique?
Th1Th2:
Where is the word "needle" in that sentence? What does "usually in a modified form" mean in Earth (not on Htrae)?
You've done this kind of egregious lying before. You go through incredible linguistic gymnastics to avoid saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong."
Please, if there is any justice in this world: Th1Th2 should never be the parent of any child. The psychological warfare this idiot employs would cause serious harm. That is because Th1Th2 is a liar, idiot and psychotic.
Your only excuse is that English is not your first language. It is not my first language either, so that is nothing to be ashamed of. Unfortunately after age three no one spoke to me in my first language, so my use of it is no longer fluent.
W. Kevin Vicklund,
I guess it does/will happen when you apply Militant Agnostic's imaginary claim.
Oooh, look... I employed the evil double negative in the sentence "At no time did I deny that the ingredients will not at some point enter the vein (usually in a modified form)."
Yeah, eventually some part of the vaccine ingredients enter the bloodstream, but not directly from the needle. They need to go through muscle and/or fat tissue. This is where they run into the body's immune system. What eventually enters the bloodstream is not exactly what was contained in the syringe or needle. Deal with it.
Stop being an idiot. Stop being a liar. Start learning how to live in this reality. And I really fear for any of your offspring.
Please, if there is any justice in this world: Th1Th2 should never be the parent recipient of any child replies it can feed on.
Better?
Thingy: Unlike you, some of us have education in the sciences, some of us are licensed physicians and nurses. I learned proper immunization techniques in college and on the job. I have literally given thousands of immunizations to infants, children and adults and immunized with immunoglobulin thousands of individuals exposed to vaccine-preventable illnesses and to food borne Hepatitis A. I also have Mantoux tested thousands of individuals for tuberculosis screenings and for exposure to an active case of T.B. The vaccines were injected either subcutaneously or intramuscularly...never IV. Mantoux testing is done by injecting Purified Protein Derivative intradermally...never IV. I also vaccinated several dozen "first responders" with Dryvax smallpox vaccine with the proper technique of multiple punctures with a bifurcated implement...never IV.
The only time I ever used an IV needle was to start intravenous solution infusion on a patient in a hospital, or to draw blood for lab testing.
So, what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse? How many immunizations have you ever given?
Narad, sadly, no. I can deal with Th1Th2 morphing my replies into its reality. A child could not. That would be a permanent tragedy.
(Unfortunately as a stepdaughter I am all too familiar with that scenario, which makes Th1Th2's re-interpretations more heinous.)
Please, please guys...don't get swept into Thing's "thing".
Need I remind you of the insane postings from the Thing a few weeks back when Thing couldn't (or wouldn't) acknowledge the difference between antigens and antibodies, the difference between TIG and Tetanus Toxoid Vaccine, the difference between HRIG and Rabies vaccine? Attempts to educate Thing were totally futile as he has not a clue about passive immunity, passive acquired immunity, or the ABCs of immunology, no clue about post-exposure prophylaxis versus pre-exposure immunizations...just totally clueless.
Just ignore any further postings by Thing...you cannot argue with his obviously deranged thinking processes.
Chris,
Chris you're no different than a little child telling stories about her imaginary friends. Grow up.
lilady,
#224, You're speculating as always. Where did that occur?
lilady,
#222, So you're saying that beneath-the-skin injection of PPD is proper and safe technique? Could you cite a source that supports your ridiculous claim. Proper lingo is not acceptable.
-- on August 25, the UK Daily Mail said "Up to half of (British) family doctors do not want to be vaccinated against swine flu," and one-third of them said the vaccine was inadequately tested;
-- in Australia, "Leading infectious disease experts have called on the Federal Government to abandon its mass swine-flu vaccination plan because of fears the vaccine is a contamination risk that could spread blood-borne diseases;"
-- In Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts (1905), the US Supreme Court ruled that the state could require people to be vaccinated for the common good; in April 2009, NECN.com reported that a possible new Massachusetts law (Bill 2028) will require compulsory vaccinations; those refusing face $1,000 a day fines or 30 days in prison; after the state senate unanimously passed it, Catherine Austin Fitts concluded that Boston's money men must be "very scared about something," given that the city is "the capital of equity investment;"
-- on August 25, Health Minister Ulla Schmidt admitted on German TV that the Swine Flu vaccination campaign was a hoax and the largest ever inoculation experiment in history; and
-- on August 22, Dr. Wolfgang Wogarg, chairman of the health committee in the German parliament and European Council, warned about potential Swine Flu vaccine safety. He said Novartis' vaccine contained cancerous animal cells, and emphasized peoples' fears over the disease from being inoculated. "It is a great business for the pharmaceutical industry," he told Neuen Presse. Swine flu is not very different from conventional flu, but the vaccine can have dangerous side effects.
Global Research, August 28, 2009 by Stephen Lendman
INOCULATIONS: THE TRUE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
CAUSING VIDS (VACCINE INDUCED DISEASES)(AN EPIDEMIC OF GENOCIDE)
What the promoters of vaccination failed to realize is that secretory IgA (an antibody found predominately in
saliva and secretions of the gastrointestinal and respiratory tract mucosa) is the initial
normal antibody response to all airborne and ingested pathogens.
Bypassing this mucosal aspect of the immune system by directly injecting organisms into the body leads to a corruption in the immune system itself.
As a result, the pathogenic viruses or bacteria cannot be eliminated by the immune system and remain in the body, where they cause chronic disease and thus further grow and/or mutate as the individual is exposed to ever more antigens and toxins in the environment
by Rebecca Carley, M.D.
Court Qualified Expert in VIDS and Legal Abuse Syndrome
Amended June 23, 2008
Doctors Speak Out on Vaccine Dangers
The Merck Manual (first published in 1899, now available in a Home Edition) warns individuals with B and/or T cell immunodeficiencies to avoid live-virus vaccines (the main ingredient in ones produced by Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline, and perhaps others) due to the risk of severe or fatal infections. Immunodeficiencies include common food allergies, inhalant ones, eczema, dermatitis, neurological deterioration and heart disease. Vaccines may be lethal for people with these conditions because their immune systems can't produce a healthy reaction to the viral assault on them. Getting it may induce illnesses they're intended to prevent and many other potentially deadly ones.
On April 2, 2002 in the London Telegraph, autism specialist Dr. Kenneth Aitken said: "When I was in training, one in 2,500 (children were autistic). Now it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation for this is MMR" immunizations.
On April 27, 1979, at the American Society of Microbiology meeting, a paper by Drs. Anthony Morris, John Chriss, and BG Young titled, "Occurrence of Measles in Previously Vaccinated Individuals" concluded that "By the (US) government's own admission, there has been a 41% failure rate in persons who were previously vaccinated against the (measles) virus."
A 1993 British Medical Journal article stated: "In 1993 a high court judge in the UK decided that it was impossible to know the exact contents of vaccines and that science had no idea what the cocktails of chemicals, contaminants and heavy metals contained in vaccines could do to the human body, or why they would work to prevent disease."
Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former FDA Vaccine Control head said: "There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children does more harm than good." He concluded that "There is no evidence that any influenza vaccine thus far developed is effective in preventing or mitigating any attack of influenza. The producers of these vaccines know that they are worthless, but they go on selling them anyway."
Professor LC Vincent, Bioelectronics founder, said "Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukemia."
In December 1985, Dr. Albert Sabin, discoverer of the oral polio vaccine, admitted that "Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection."
The National Institute of Health's (NIH) Dr. James A. Shannon said that "The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used."
Professor Ari Zukerman of the World Health Organization (WHO) stated: "Immunization against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself."
Dr. Paul Frame in the Journal of Family Practice believes "There is insufficient evidence to support routine vaccination of healthy persons of any age."
Dr. John B. Classen stated that his "data proves that the studies used to support immunization are so flawed that it is impossible to say if immunization provides a net benefit to anyone or to society in general."
Dr. Gerhard Buchwald concluded from the results of 150 trials that "Vaccination is not necessary, not useful, (and) does not protect. There are twice as many casualties from vaccination as from AIDS."
The Association of American Physicians & Surgeons stated that "Public policy regarding vaccines is fundamentally flawed. It is permeated by conflicts of interest. It is based on poor scientific methodology (and it's) insulated from independent criticism."
Javier, are you telling us that Th1Th2 is actually Rebecca Carley? A woman who lost custody of her son because of mental illness? Good to know!
Mr. Martinez: you make no sense at all. Could you try scientific cites that are actually relevant and pertain to the 21st century. We mean real scientific cites that can be found in medical school libraries, not silly news reports or legislative directives. And none from more than a century ago (1905? You really thought that was current?). Thanks.
http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/carley/order_2004.shtml
If they are the same person, based on the results of the hearing in NY, it certainly explains its complete lack of understanding.
It holds up two instances - one involving Mice & another involving a medical procedure from 90 years ago that isn't even performed anymore (and hasn't been in quite some time) as some kind of "holy grail" argument winner, while completely ignoring that neither of those two items have anything to do with the actual discussion.
If we're going to go around citing evidence from 100+ years ago, perhaps we should also go around citing disease prevalence from 100+ years ago and compare the relative risks.
I'd also like to know how many people citing these data actually have seen the epidemics that were common back then. My mother was a young child when the Salk vaccine for polio was announced to stupendous public rejoicing... and her opinion of the anti-vax "movement" is nigh-unprintable.
-- Steve
"by Rebecca Carley, M.D.
Court Qualified Expert in VIDS and Legal Abuse Syndrome
Amended June 23, 2008
Posted by: Javier "
so what about pathogens entering the bloodstream by, you know, cuts or abrasions to the skin?
heh
Th1Th2 is plainly impervious to reason, but it's too early to go to work, so I'll respond once more. Â
When a vaccine is injected intramuscularly, it is presented to the immune system at that point. It then makes its way slowly and indirectly, in a more or less altered form, to the blood vessels or into the lymphatic system. But the key words are "slowly" and "indirectly". That gives the immune system time to take a good look at it and prepare in case it ever sees the actual disease.
On the other hand, if a drug is injected intravenously, it goes directly into the bloodstream and has an immediate effect. It is not desirable that a vaccine be injected directly into the bloodstream; amusingly, Th1T2's example of the typhoid vaccine is a good example of why. Â The vaccine was not used *as a vaccine*; it was given to people who had "the developed typhoid fever", that is, people who were already sick. Â And as Th1Th2's own quotation stated:
As T. Bruce McNeely explained, this means that it was used as "a non-specific pyrogen, to induce a fever as an obsolete treatment of rheumatic fever." More fully, in the pre-antibiotic days, doctors tried various mechanisms to assist the body in fighting off a disease. One such was to deliberately induce "a crisis" characterized by high fever (a pyrogen is something that induces fever). Â There were lots of treatments in the pre-antibiotic days that we would never consider today (mercury for syphilis, for instance), and this is one of them. Â
Th1Th2 triumphantly brought out this 1917 treatment in response to the statement, "No human vaccine is given IV." It thinks it has somehow refuted the statement because that statement was false in 1917. Well, I have another statement for Th1Th2: "The United States is not engaged in trench warfare in France." I breathlessly await Th1Th2's refutation of this statement.Â
Particularly apt statement regarding all of our resident trolls:
"The Committee's majority determined that the Respondent suffers from a delusional disorder that impairs the Respondent's ability to practice medicine. The Committee found further that the Respondentâs impairment involves a rigid thinking pattern that extends to her professional life and renders her incapable to exercise open-minded judgement required to evaluate and diagnose medical disorders and arrive at appropriate conclusions regarding optimal therapy. The ARB concludes that the Respondent's impairment makes her unfit for medical practice and could place patients at risk. We conclude further that the Respondent fails to acknowledge her impairment or the need to obtain treatment. We see no alternative means to protect the public other then revoking the Respondent's License."
Kudos to CBS for running that message!!!
As a physician it is unbelievable to me that otherwise intelligent people can be so brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies. READ THE ORIGINAL JOURNAL ARTICLES! GO CHECK OUT THE COCHRANE COLLABORATION (the "gold standard" for evidence based medicine).
Everything you will read there readily illustrates the manipulation of statistics, which is so easy to do, to support pharmaceutical companies.
For just one second pretend you know nothing about the topic, and read the original journal articles, the package inserts, etc. Forget the dogma. Just use your own, independent, intelligent mind.
I was brainwashed at one point, too, which I find amazing and disgusting at the same time - I have never really taken anyone's word about anything else in medicine or my life without asking questions.
It's about vaccine SAFETY, our children's SAFETY, our own SAFETY. And THAT is what has not been accounted for. There are no adequately trialled safety studies. There is not one study looking at multiple vaccinations at the same time. Not one.
We are so skeptical of everything else in this world, but somehow the fear of illness has made us blind. Take a look around - we are not a well people. And we get sicker all the time.
There are fanatics on both sides of this issue.
Don't take my word, NVIC's word, Dr. Mercola's word, the CDC's word or anyone else's. Do the same research that you would do before buying a car or a home, or undergoing a major surgery. NVIC and Mercola's websites, among others, provide the tools for your research. They provide the links to original documents and publications that the CDC and FDA are not willing provide or publicize.
Vaccine safety advocates do not stand to gain any wealth or power from their efforts of educating the public. I "lose" money by not vaccinating my patients. I don't get the federal or insurance company "kickbacks" for maintaining a high rate of immunization. I get criticized by my peers. So why do I continue? Because I took an oath to DO NO HARM. I took an oath to serve and protect the well being of my patients, not my bank account.
Until there are satisfactory safety studies that tell me that the risks of all these vaccines I am supposed to be giving is less than the risk of the illnesses they are supposed to protect us from I will continue to question the dogma.
If you agree with the censorship of books like "To Kill a Mockingbird", to the censorship of history topics that make the US look not so nice, with dictatorships that do not allow the "dissidents" to express their opinions, then I guess I have wasted my keystrokes on here.
If you agree with freedom of science, ideology, and questioning old standards, then you will not fear the ad being run in Times Square. You will embrace it, explore it, and perhaps learn something you didn't know yesterday.
Just a quick question - is there some reason why you did not provide citations of a few of these articles?
Here's one.
@Gayl Hamilton:
Please provide one example of a Cochrane Library analysis in which the data were manipulated to obtain a desired result, show where/how the manipulation occurred, and how the results and interpretation would be different without that manipulation.
Which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease it is meant to prevent? Please include references. A PubMed ID will suffice.
False. All vaccine safety studies include patients receiving the standard vaccinations-- that is, multiple ones.
Because NVIC and Mercola cannot be trusted. Try searching for either of those names in the searchbox at the top left of this webpage.
How does this minor loss compare to the money you earn by treating the resulting vaccine-preventable diseases?
Well, that was stirring. I suppose that you think you're some sort of patriot for leaving your patients vulnerable to diseases that could have been prevented. I think you're despicable. Try spending some time with someone in an iron lung due to polio, or parents who watched their baby cough to death with pertussis, or someone who's sterile because of mumps orchitis, or deaf because of the measles, or whose child has rubella-induced autism (these people exist, but can you tell us why they are so hard to find?). Your refusal to vaccinate is a clear violation of the standard of care, and I hope you're reported to your state licensing board.
Dr. Hamilton,
Do you realize how many conspiracy theories you just brought up to attempt to minimize the arguments of those which you disagree? You've used the Pharma Shill Gambit, you use an argument to authority in stating you are an MD and you used a circular argument when saying that we shouldn't take Mercola or NVIC's word, but we should trust their documentation. You also attempted to provide protection against charges of monetary gain, which was never leveled against you, while ignoring the fact that Mercola sells a massive amount of supplementals. By implication, you accuse those educated in actual science of gaining monetarily.
You've offered nothing specific, you've used the same emotional arguments and arguments from incredulity that has been done by the anti-vax side for dozens of years. Get something original, like proof of your claims.
Let's see, you lose money, but can make up for it in spades by treating, for example, pertussis.
So Todd, how long did it take you to find that reference?
PS Gayl - I am wondering, is your failure due to incompetent journal searching skills, an inability to read, or something else?
Gayl Hamilton, MD
Oh, goody! Finally someone who is willing to answer my question with real journal articles!
Please "Dr." Hamilton, could you please provide the cites that show the MMR vaccine is riskier than measles, mumps, and rubella? Please to the same for DTaP, Hib, IPV and the varicella vaccine. I live only a couple of miles from a medical school library where I can look up the full papers.
Also, can you answer the question I posed above with the census data of measles incidence? That also seems to one of those questions that those who use ALL CAPS have trouble with.
Oh, and speaking of the Cochrane Library, have you seen this editorial, which says:
@Pablo
No more than 30 seconds. Would've been faster if I didn't need to read the abstract first.
Yes. Precisely. AND THAT'S WHY WE VACCINATE. Because even if we take the word of the anti-vax hysterics literally, a simple review of public health records show that VACCINE COMPLICATIONS ARE VASTLY FEWER AND MORE BENIGN THAN THOSE OF THE ILLNESSES THEY PREVENT.
I also know, again from public health records, that the two most dangerous phases of vaccinating children occur during the drive to the vaccination and the drive home. Again, even accepting the word of an underwear model with a comedian ex- as unvarnished scientific truth, kids are far more likely to be in a collision than they are to suffer adverse effects from an innoculation.
If you want to protect your kid from the risks of vaccination, don't drive. Ever. Trade in the minivan and take the bus. You'll save a lot of money and the environment, too.
(And you certainly are not losing money as a medical practitioner by not vaccinating; in the long run, you're guaranteeing yourself a lot of repeat business from preventable diseases. That this drives up health care costs is a secondary concern, but given the current US obsession over spiraling health insurance premiums and the liquidity of Medicare it is a topical one.)
(Hey, there's an idea; treat anti-vax statements from physicians as a warning sign of insurance fraud?)
-- Steve
Chris
The only people who care about incidence rates for measles are vaccine scaremongers.Same for chickenpox. Nobody cares about the incidence rate of measles. They care about permanent sequelae.
Why did mortality drop drastically before 1967? It wasn't because of vaccines.
Weren't you the one who used scaremongering tactics with the tetanus? Something about insects spreading tetanus are scraping your knee. You even used a cute little journal link to pretend you had "evidence" for your scaremongering rationale.
Chris
Citation???
They shouldn't put ANY of the side effects on the package insert. It should read as follows:
SIDE EFFECTS: So What? What are you gonna do about? Nothin'. Just what I thought. Just take the damn vaccine!
Why did mortality drop drastically before 1967? It wasn't because of vaccines.
It wasn't? The measles vaccine was introduced in 1963*, which looks like it coincides with the start of the drop-off. Why do you think it must have taken four years to have an effect?
* This is based on a couple of minutes at Google, so people who know better, feel free to correct me.
@ Javier: Lawrence only provided you with the Final Order that revoked Rebecca Lee Carley's license to practice medicine in New York State. See the entire sordid mess including license suspension and license revocation at:
OPMC Rebecca Lee Carley
Sure, she tells her "audience" that there was a conspiracy by the courts and by New York State agencies to remove her license to practice because she was anti-vax and she can cure autism...nothing like that ever happened. Since the time she was licensed, she displayed early signs of mental illness and she went "full bore" when her child's custody was given to the father. She is not "court qualified" in any way.
I spoke to her (got stuck speaking to her) when she would call the health department where I worked. She, unfortunately is mentally ill and needs some serious therapy and a course of major anti-psychotic medications. The psychiatrists who examined her state she also has a personality disorder; there is no therapy or medication to treat that.
LW,
That didn't even refute the fact that vaccines are indeed injected [slowly and indirectly] into the bloodstreams. You merely explained and supported the mechanism behind parenteral injection of vaccines.
What's so undesirable about prompt recovery anyway? You tell me. You know people with classic typhoid can run a course of fevers in weeks but there's a shorter alternative hence the intravenous typhoid vaccine. To claim that the vaccine was not used a vaccine is just plain ignorance.
Oh I see where you got it wrong when you claimed "the vaccine was not used as a vaccine". It's because your mind is full of contradiction. Isn't it the typhoid vaccine itself a pyrogen that induces the high fever?
Well, the intravenous typhoid vaccine was so triumphant its use continued during the 1930's.
@ Wintemute: Right you are, about prevalence and incidence rates of measles plummeting following licensing of measles vaccine in 1963. In fact following licensing, measles incidence went down by 98 %. See web: CDC Pink Book Measles.
Nah. Chris is actually telling us how the primary measles infection caused by wild-type measles virus was replaced by primary measles infection caused by the measles vaccines.
Again, how many naive children were deliberately infected with the measles virus in the vaccine? How many people were inoculated Chris? Show us the numbers.
Thingy: We are all waiting for you to answer the questions I posed to you at # 222, above:
So what is your particular science background and are you a licensed physician or a licensed nurse?
How many immunizations have you ever given?
Th1Th2, if the measles vaccine caused primary measles infection, why didn't we seem the same effects (death rates, permanent sequelae) associated with measles?
Thingy has argued that vaccines are bad because they're injected into the bloodstream. Now:
about injecting some vaccine directly into the bloodstream. Thingy can't even be bothered to maintain consistency on a single comment thread. So we'll conclude with another Thingy quote:
Th1Th2:
Sorry, I only deal with science and math that pertains to Earth, not Htrae. On Earth between 80% to 90% of American children become immune to the wild measles virus due to the MMR vaccine. That is why we no longer need to bury about one child per family, or send away children to institutions to rot after they became permanently disabled. Something that was common in the 19th century.
The fact that children have an actual chance of growing up is because of advances in medical treatment (antibiotics, ventilators), water and sewage treatment and vaccines. Not just one of those things, but all of those things.
Chris,
I couldn't tell but you will need Band-Aid or a cotton ball for a needlestick injury like that right?
BTW, did you also show lilady where the PPD is properly injected? Is it beneath or within the layers of the skin? I'm surprised the subcutaneous and the muscles tissues lie beneath the skin! Unbelievable. Lastly, do you have any needle gauge smaller than tuberculin syringe so I can inject the PPD? I don't want to hit those microscopic capillaries with the needle end you know. Haha. Pretty pictures indeed.
Is this the same Gayl Hamilton, MD who is on the board of the Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center
http://imcv-wi.org/BoardofDirectors.aspx
From the bio...
" From 2004 to present, Dr. Hamilton practices family medicine and OB at Divine Savior Healthcare in Portage and Pardeeville, WI. Her special interests include preventive healthcare, nutrition, sports medicine, alternative medicine, pediatrics, obstetrics, vaccine research, and maintaining the ideals of the family practice. Dr. Hamilton is mother to five children: four girls, one boy ages 14 to 21, one with Down's syndrome and autism."
The mission statement for the Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center is-
Wisconsin Vaccine Information Center aims to prevent vaccine injury and death by providing Wisconsin physicians and residents access to truthful medical information on vaccines and an understanding of Wisconsin vaccine exemption law.
The 'Get Smart' tab on the site reads like a 'Who's Who' of the vaccine cranks.
The woo is strong in this one.
So, Th1Th2, what is your educational background? Is it the custom on Htrae to brag about how little you attended school?
Because it is obvious you don't even know how to look at a drawing and notice that there were no veins in them. Do you even know the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle?
Gray Falcon,
It's because primary measles caused by natural infection is generally benign and uncomplicated. That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital). For doctors and vaccine apologists it is deadly because these infection promoters know how to complicate things.
You just contradicted yourself, Th1Th2. That's like saying a car teleports you [slowly and indirectly] to a destination.
You have to remember Thingy has previously claimed the measles vaccine results in a chronic infection.
It doesn't seem to realize the complications of the vaccine are many times lower than the wild type virus.
Chris,
It's a drawing. Why don't you provide us, your fans, with a complete illustration of the human skin where the blood vessels are shown.
You know Wiki is waiting for you. I'll let you do the honors.
I think I get it now! Thingy's afraid of needles!
Whatsammatta Thingy? Got a shot when you were little and they didn't give you a lollipop?
@ Chris: Don't even waste your time on Thing; he is a typical troll...and sadly lacking in any reasoning skills, no less a science based background to understand 3rd grade science. Thing doesn't have a higher education degree in any field and is totally unable to understand simple diagrams and pictures; he lives in his "own world" populated by other ranting, raving trolls. Sad.
Th1Th2:
Are you serious? Do you know what the death rate from measles was before modern medicine? If modern medicine only makes things worse, why hasn't anybody noticed?
Another thing. You were told, repeatedly, that IV use of typhoid was not a vaccine. Why do you keep insisting it is?
Do you know what a capillary is? Seriously?
W. Kevin Vicklund
Check #208. What part of the word No do you not understand?
Th1Th2, I can't make heads or tails out of #208. Could you explain it more carefully?
No, he can't. Because even he has no clue what he's saying.
As far as I can tell, he's making an analogy, then treating his own analogy as literal truth. I don't think Th1Th2 is capable of following basic logic.
Gray,
I would assume they were not smart. And I mean smart to maintain a healthy living.
Most people are not smart.
That's laughable. I assume you're not that smart enough to even define the word vaccine.
You should wait for Chris' illustration. Maybe she's still drawing her own.
I guess it's a shame that there are so few smart people who know how to take care of a sick child at home, then. Because a huge number of "natural" measles infections end in death, blindness, brain damage or other serious conditions. In fact, the odds of suffering these nasty side effects is far higher amongst children who are not hospitalised.
I don't suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?
I'm sure Thingy can - hot off the press from the 19th Century.
If he/she/it could cut-and-paste stone tablets, we would receive a whole lot more.
I don't suppose you can provide any citations for your laughable claims, can you?
It will redefine 'citation' as 'small toy found within my breakfast cereal' and provide you with plenty.
Wintermute, I think it's time to give up with Thingy entirely... as I don't think Thingy accepts the germ theory.
The buzzword bingo from his/her posts make me think he subscribes to a more vitalist school for disease transmission, especially since he/she can't seem to distinguish between weakened- and killed-vaccine in terms of virulence. (I'm blanking on the name of the school of thought I have in mind, the one that insists that bacilli are symptoms of rather than causes of disease.)
It's time to leave Thingy in the 19th century, I think, and restrict discussion to those who are living in the 21st.
-- Steve
Chris,
In the event they get re-exposed to the wild-type. That means, primary measles infection occurs when the naive child is initially and deliberately exposed to the measles virus vaccine or when the child contracts natural measles. The measles vaccine just created an alternative way to replace primary measles infection caused by wild-type measles virus.
There was no reduction Chris instead there was propagation of the measles virus worldwide. For you being a casual fan of vaccination, I wouldn't expect you to even understand basic immunology.
They were not that smart.
Despite all of those things, hospitals continue to multiply and disease categories continue to flourish. Is it because people are healthier now and not getting sick?
wintermute
Go out and ask medical doctors on how they primarily treat measles. Not for their opinions but the accepted intervention.
Th1Th2:
So why is our local tuberculous sanitarium now the campus of a private school? Why has lifespan doubled since the 19th century? Do you think that the numbers of hospital beds might be related to the doubling of the American population in the last fifty years?
What is the proportion of hospital beds to population?
Don't bother answering. Your answers are worthless. They are pulled out the convoluted folds of your anatomy that is attached to the chair seat, and filtered through some fantasy filled smokescreen.
I'm done playing with this clown. I am utterly amazed that she has figured out how to turn on a computer and navigate to this page, because she is even more clueless than Little Augie. He is just a little sexist anti-science right wing troll who is merely stupid, but Thingy lives in her own fantasy world. It is even less consistent and more bizarre than Htrae.
Anton,
Well, the wild-type poliovirus, although so virulent, will not cause paralysis in more than 99% cases of poliomyelitis. Will that make me a germ-denialist? No.
How about the iatrogenic paralysis caused by VAPP and VDPV? Will that make me a germ-denialist? Absolutely not.
Now its your turn to answer.
Th1Th2 - This statement appears ambiguous - could you clarify?
Does that mean that only 99% of polio cases result in paralysis or that less than 1% of polio cases result in paralysis. Do you have a statistic and source? Is that for permanent paralysis or does it also cover temporary paralysis? What of excruciating pain - do you have a statistic on how often that is associated with polio?
Chris,
If there's anything that has doubled is the abdominal girth. Why are these people still alive (no pun intended)? Of course, they are indispensable. If it makes dollars then it makes sense, doesn't it?
If I had any liquor, I would get drunk and see if that comment from Th1Th2 makes more sense that way.
JohnV, don't count on it. She seems to have gone to the Insane Clown Posse School of Science and Logic.
JohnV, in her fantasy world 308 million is not more than twice 151 million.
JohnV, I don't think even drinking will help.
O'Brien,
The latter. Should this be surprising?
You can use whatever source of information available to you at this moment. Don't get too complicated, it won't change the fact.
It does not matter.
The 99% or the 1%? Please clarify.
Did it ever occur to you that you should back up your own statements? Laziness and arrogance do not do you any credit.
Yes it does. Temporary paralysis and severe pain were much more common than permanent paralysis, so why aren't those symptoms showing up either?
Thanks - as I said, your original statement could be read two ways.
According to Wikipedia, about 90% of Polio infections show no symptoms. According to the "prognosis" section of the same article, possible outcomes include full recovery, temporary paralysis, permanent paralysis, and death.
About 3% of infections cause non-paralytic aseptic meningitis, with symptoms of headache, neck, back, abdominal and extremity pain, fever, vomiting, lethargy and irritability.
Perhaps 1 in 200 are paralyzed.
"Oh yeah? Below is what appears to be Chris' infamous claim.
Injecting under the skin or into the muscle is not going into a vein.
I know she is so humiliated to even recognize her own claim (self-rejection) that she won't even bother discussing it. Too bad."
Chris's claim is entirely correct by widely accepted clinical definitions. Yours is not.
An IM injection is, by definition, not IM. Your attempts to falsely equate IM with IV because (to paraphrase) "It eventually gets there in the end", is quite clearly dishonest, and - to make your stupidity clearer - you have successfully argued that IV effects are stronger than IM effects. Your character is so stupid and confused that we could leave it alone and it would argue itself into a corner six ways till sunday.
Chris has not made the claim your character has indicated (indeed, no-one has thus far made any of the bizarre claims it has attributed to them) and has clearly indicated where your character has misunderstood.
Your character has clearly decided to make a set of rather bizarre and clinically unsupportable claims. It has clearly decided that anyone who corrects the inaccuracies in its claims is somehow arguing for the exact opposite.
Stop lying about people.
Stop lying about people to other people who can read the primary source.
Stop lying about not being a liar.
Stop pretending you seriously hold the beliefs that you do.
"An IM injection is, by definition, not IV."
Obvious typo is obvious.
Gray,
You're not going to quit getting embarrassed all the time, are you?
From the CDC website.
Well, it is still polio no matter what. Are you happy now or you want proof?
Please ignore the thing - she should be concentrating on her therapy in an attempt to regain at least some semblance of custody/contact with her child.
Yes, I need evidence. Even at 1% incidence of permanent paralysis, that still means that the vaccine would have caused thousands of cases of permanent paralysis, if your claims were true.
@ JohnV and LW: I've taken my prescribed ETOH per os preprandial "medication" and Thingy's comments still do not make sense.
Oooohhh! I know this one!
It's "modern medicine", isn't it?
The base "argument" is that babies are "born sterile" and remain so until they are "made filthy by inoculation." One may as well contest with a triffid.
Late to the party...but in light of the constant "vaccines are injected directly into your child's bloodstream" we see constantly from the anti-vaxx loons..
#217 Dunning-Kruger Idjit
Is it really trying to say vascularized tissue = vein?
It's trying to argue injection into vascularized tissue = intravenous injection? Seriously? HAHAHAHAHAHA..
Th1Th2, can you say "I am desparately disingenuous"?
I dug the following out of some of my old pharmacology notes... for Th1Th2's ignorance.
"Intramuscular injection: Drugs may be injected into the arm (deltoid), thigh (vastus lateralis) or buttocks (gluteus maximus). Because of differences in vascularity, the rates of absorption differ, with arm > thigh > buttocks.
The volume of injection, osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption."
To repeat..
"The volume of injection,osmolality of the solution, lipid solubility and degree of ionization influence absorption."
Gee, I wonder if any of these factors would be taken into account during the formulation of vaccines and IM medications? Ya think?
Then..#257
If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it...right? Right? A broken cappillary would be transporting blood from where to where? Or do you actually think that the bevels of the hyperdemics used to inject IM vaccines are small enough to actually enter into a capillary?
#258 Chris
Obviously not! I think you'll need to type more slowly for Th1Th2 Chris.
Th1Th2 would be one of the most extreme examples of the DunningâKruger effect I've ever come across. It's anti-vaxx cohorts are going to need valium after all the cringing they'll be experiencing if they happen to be reading it's posts...well except for jen maybe.
p.s.
Have emailed CBS.
edit..seeing as Th1Th2 appears to mistake semantics and pedantry
for argument.
"If a capillary is broken by the tip of a needle, blood stops flowing through it...right?"
I mean that capillary is no longer transporting blood through/ within the circulatory system...obviously.
Sauceress,
This is the problem with dyslexics, sure they can type but they don't read and understand pretty well. Can you identify the first five words that you have quoted?
Gray,
You don't need further evidence Gray. You need to find your self. That's why I was asking you if you are happy because there are naive children out there who never got paralyzed let alone infected with poliovirus from the vaccine or from natural infection. Just be happy for them.
there are naive children out there
Who even post on this blog.
Yes, I need evidence. Without that, I wouldn't have any science. You claimed the polio vaccine (always?) causes infection, and that paralysis occurs 1% of the time. I'm pretty sure that fact that millions were inoculated against polio, so where are all the cases I'm supposed to be seeing? Where?
Gray,
Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.
1. Deny that this never happened.
2. Remain a germ-denialist.
My guess. Your guilty of both.
I'm guilty of misspelling. That should be You're.
Th1Th2, did you know that one percent of a million is ten thousand? So if they were inoculated with polio, why aren't there thousands of cases of paralysis resulting from polio vaccinations?
Millions were inoculated with polio. You have two options nonetheless.
1. Deny that this never [sic] happened. BOW TO MY WILL.
2. Remain a germ-denialist. Ignore me.
Gray,
It's because the mutations done in polio vaccine (OPV) made the virus strain less neurovirulent compared to wild-type.
Finally, you're starting to learn! The live-virus version did cause infections, but not as severe as the real disease. We already know this, you did nothing groundbreaking by telling us that.
Gray,
Or that the OPV did nothing to prevent poliomyelitis instead it became the alternative and dominant source of infectious poliovirus to date.
BTW, what's so severe about asymptomatic poliomyelitis caused by the wild-type virus in more than 95% of polio cases?
You're mercurial Gray. Your germ-denialism and germ-loving nature occur at the same time. Didn't you notice that? Tell me next time which side are you in. OK?
Do you have any evidence that poliomyelitis infections are running rampant? Base assertion is not enough.
Nothing, but what about the other 5% of the cases? If I stabbed you, could I get off by saying I only murdered 1 in 300,000,000 of the US' population?
That's only because you're trying to use your own definitions "germ theory" and "germ denialism". The fact that they contradict so easily suggests that maybe the problem is with your definitions.
Gray,
What's going on here? Are you having transient amnesia?
You just told me the truth:
Your biphasic nature is so obvious. As a germ-lover you will praise the vaccine-type virus because it causes a not- so-severe infection but when the vaccine leads to paralysis you instantaneously become a germ-denialist.
Not good.
The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as true polio. You yourself admitted that the vaccine strain is weaker in comment 307! Try to understand the basics. First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.
First of all, there are viewpoints outside of the extremes.
You know who else said that? HITLER.
Thingy: We want statistics about paralytic polio caused by vaccine in the United States. How about providing us with actual reports of cases of paralytic polio in the United States in the last ten years? Prove to us that your statements are based in fact.
Gray,
There you go. There's the germ-denialism again. So you would never call it true polio unless the infected person becomes paralytic, would you?
That's because there are non-paralytic types of poliomyelitis caused by either wild-type or vaccine-type virus. If you want to refute this then you have to be a germ-denialist, that is, you have to deny asymptomatic, abortive and non-paralytic poliomyelitis.
Except the OPV strains are severely attenuated and rarely are able to infect another person.
Not to mention many countries, like the US, use the IPV, which isn't even a live virus. But then Thing thinks proteins alone can cause infections.
Did you even bother to read the comment? All I have to do is make a small change: The vaccine only causes paralysis in extremely rare cases, and while it did cause mild infections, they did not spread as badly as wild-type polio.
I know those exist. What I don't know is why you think they're still occurring. Do you have any evidence that this is happening? At all? Don't just assert your version of germ theory, a hypothesis is only as good as the evidence supporting it.
Gray Falcon:
In the tortured warped fantasy world of Th1Th2 the words enter her eyes, go through a screen that is similar to the funky carnival mirror and turned into some strange manifestation of bizarro reality. As I said, a tour in her mind would be a carnival fun house ride.
What is freakier than the Twilight Zone? Well, it would be Th1Th2. If we were to take some of her more common quotes, we'd find the ingredients of one of those episodes that had a very unhappy ending.
313: You know who else said that?
You know who else expressed mystical, single-cause theories of disease and impurity in German?
herr dokter bimler, was that German fellow around before some Italian guy called Avogadro?
Gray Falcon:
Remember, you are dealing with a person who lives in a fantasy world. There is only her version of the world, the rest is not part of her "reality." It is a a construct that lives only in her fun house mind as a very warped version of solipsism.
Thing (#307)
Just for a brief moment, I felt an unfamiliar warm glow within. Was there truly a dawn of enlightenment close at hand? Were we about to witness the gradual fruition of all our patient efforts? Like caring parents trying to help a child learn to ride a bike, we have poured our advice and encouragment into each and every attempt we witness, running beside our excited infant as he pedalled furiously in his attempts to succeed. Oh how we hoped that one day, something would somehow suddenly click, and before our proud and misted eyes, our previously helpless protogee would be up and cycling, shouting out loud with glee and wonderment at his newly gained skills, and desperately yearning to go faster and further.
Alas it was not to be. Our premature expectations were dashed into tiny fragments like a smashed vaccine vial under the boot of an AoA goon; our crushed hopes borne away like millions of scattered petals on the frothy, germ laden waters of the Ganges. The disappointment was palpable, and the hollow sensation of emptiness gripping our chests was vice-like in its unremitting intensity.
Sadly the realisation struck home. Never would we succeed, and all our efforts were in vain (though never in vein)
An answer to some of my critics from yesterday regarding the danger of a "vaccine preventable disease" vs the danger of the vaccine.
INCIDENCE OF COMPLICATIONS FROM NATURAL PERTUSSIS INFECTION
(VS) COMPLICATIONS FROM DtAP VACCINATION
(all stats are for the US population and based on yearly incidence)
(from Emedicine article)
Mortality rate in the US currently in hospitalized patients is about 1 in 500 (0.2%)
There were approximately 25,000 cases of pertussis in 2005, and 16 deaths (couldnât find age breakdown), so overall death rate from the disease is about 0.06%, or 1 death per 1500 cases.
There were approximately 300 million people in the US in 2005. That is 1 death from pertussis per 18 million people (incidence 0.000005%) and 1 case of pertussis per 12,000 people (incidence 0.008%)
Infants and children 1 to 4 years old comprised 25% of the cases, or 6,250.
Infants less than 12 months old comprised 16% of the cases, or 4,000.
History of pertussis in the United States
Peak incidence of pertussis infection occurred in 1934, with about 270,000 cases.
There were 10,000 deaths so overall death rate from disease was 4%, or 1 death per 27 cases.
The population was about 126,000,000, making the incidence about 0.2%, or 1 in 466 people. There was a total of 1 death from disease for every 12,600 people, or (0.007%).
The peak death rate from pertussis occurred in 1923 with 9,000 deaths and 166,000 cases (5.5% death rate, or 1 death for every 18 cases). US population was about 111,000,000 people, with 1 pertussis death per 12000 people (0.008%) and 1 case of pertussis for every 670 people (0.1%)
Serious sequelae of natural infection
Using the 2005 incidence data
10 to 25% of children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, worst case scenario would be about 1500 cases
1 to 2% of infants will have seizures, or 40 to 80 cases
Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified), or about 6 cases
Data regarding Daptacel (DTaP) taken from the manufacturerâs insert:
Reactions tend to increase with repeated doses.
One of the safety studies was done on 1454 children (US) who received their 4th dose of vaccine (so, probably around 15 to 18 months old).
They found that 27 (1.9%) were diagnosed with bronchiolitis within 30 days
4 (0.3%) had a seizure within 60 days
2 (0.12%) developed meningitis
3 (0.2%) developed pneumonia
1 (0.07%) developed sepsis
1 (0.07%) developed pertussis
1 (0.07%) became unresponsive
Other numbers from looking at reactions up to 3 days following administration of doses 1 through 5:
Fever greater than 101 F occurs in up to 4.8% (almost 1 in 20)
Lethargy up to 50% (1 out of 2 kids), moderate to severe up to 23% (just about 1 out of 4)
Inconsolable crying, up to 58% (1 in 2)
Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% (1 in 30)
Fussiness and irritability, âmoderateâ, up to 28% ( 1 in 4)
âSevereâ, up to 5% (1 in 20)
Vomiting occurs in up to 9% (1 in 8)
Letâs imagine this scenario:
Itâs the year 2010 and there are approximately 21 million kids under the age of 5 in the US.
Using the rate of infection of pertussis at itâs peak (0.2%) and death rate from illness from 2005, (0.06%), and assuming the age breakdown is similar to that in 2005, (26% in children under the age of 5) serious health sequelae after natural infection, the number of complications among this group would look like follows:
The total population of the US will be around 310 million, so there would be around 620,000 cases of pertussis (1 in 500 people), and a total of 372 deaths (1 in 800,000 cases)
161,000 children under the age of 4 will be affected (again couldnât find break down of death stats)
Of these affected children:
10 to 25% children less than 4 yrs old will develop a secondary bacterial pneumonia, (16,000 to 40, 000 cases)
1 to 2% infants will have seizures (1600 to 3200) cases
Approximately 0.1% will have encephalopathy (criteria for this diagnosis were not specified, so lets use the definition of encephalitis (brain inflammation) - or about 161 cases (1 in 1000).
Signs and Symptoms of Encephalitis:
Symptoms in milder cases of encephalitis usually include:
fever
headache
poor appetite
loss of energy
a general sick feeling
In more severe cases of encephalitis, a person is more likely to experience high fever and any of a number of symptoms that relate to the central nervous system, including:
severe headache
nausea and vomiting
stiff neck
confusion
disorientation
personality changes
convulsions (seizures)
problems with speech or hearing
hallucinations
memory loss
drowsiness
coma
Itâs more difficult to tell in infants, but vomiting, a full or bulging soft spot (fontanel), crying that doesn't stop or that seems worse when an infant is picked up or handled in some way, and body stiffness are clues.
(Now go back and look at the reactions listed for Daptacelâ¦.)
Now, fortunately (?), the above scenario is highly unlikely due to high rates of immunization. Lets see what would happen if we estimate that about half of the total child population will be less than 2 years old, and receive 4 DTaPs over the year â that would be about 10 million kids, and 30 million doses given.
Back to the serious adverse events numbers:
1.9% incidence of bronchiolitis, or 570,000 cases of bronchiolitis
0.3% incidence of seizures, or 90, 000 seizures
0.2% incidence of pneumonia, or 60,000 cases
0.12% incidence of meningitis, or 36,000 cases
0.07% incidence of sepsis, unresponsiveness, and pertussis or 21,000 cases of each
This adds up to approximately 777,000 cases of serious adverse reactions from the vaccine just in the population of children 2 and under (vs) 161,000 POSSIBLE cases of pertussis in children under 4.
And the common, ânot so serious reactionsâ, that are curiously similar to those of encephalitis:
Up to 50% lethargy, 15 million cases, moderate to severe up to 23%, or 7 million cases
58% incidence inconsolable crying, more than 15 million
Greater than 3 hours, up to 3.4% or 1 million cases
Up to 28% incidence of âmoderateâ, fussiness and irritability, or 8 million cases,
Up to 5%âSevereâ, or 1.5 million cases
Up to 9% incidence of vomiting, or 2.7 million cases
4.8% incidence of fever greater than 101, or 1.4 million cases
.04% incidence fever greater than 104, or 12,000 cases
(Taken from a Mayo Clinic patient ed handout)
Severe viral encephalitis can cause:
ï§Seizures
ï§Respiratory arrest
ï§Coma
ï§Death
In those who've had severe encephalitis, some problems may last for a year or more, including:
ï§Fatigue
ï§Weakness
ï§Depression
ï§Personality changes
ï§Gait problems
ï§Memory difficulties
Some complications may be permanent, such as memory loss, the inability to speak coherently, lack of muscle coordination, paralysis, or hearing or vision defects.
I find it quite interesting that some responders to my post (#238) resort to personal attacks and insults as a method of reply....seriously??? That is not part of the art of debate.
Grow up!
We questioned Thingy about Intravenous vaccines and thoroughly bitch-slapped its theories about routes of administration of vaccines.
Now Thingy attempts to tell us about VAPP (Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio). I posed some questions (at # 318 above) about VAPP cases in the United States in the last ten years and Thingy couldn't produce any statistics.
Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) has not been used in the United States since 2000, when Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) was recommended and used exclusively, for primary series and completion of polio series immunizations.
The last VAPP case infected/acquired in the United States was reported in 1999. In 2005, an unvaccinated resident of the United States was confirmed to have VAPP. The resident was infected/acquired VAPP while traveling in Costa Rica.
Gayl: I see one response that could somewhat credibly be termed a "personal attack." Mostly you got asked very reasonable questions and received several requests that you provide evidence to back up your claims.
But naturally, you focus on the former and completely refuse to even acknowledge the latter. I suspect that this is because you realize you don't HAVE any evidence. Though I do wonder why, if you knew that, you made the claims in the first place.
The first 10 responses to Gayl are all requesting citations or examining the claims made in #238. I myself pointed out that Gayl used the pharma-shill gambit. I note that instead of replying to the overwhelming call for citations and proof of claims, Gayl has decided to play persecuted poopypants and accuse others of juvenile tactics.
Welcome to the internet, Gayl, would you like some cheese with your whine or would you like to respond to the 10 different posters (at least) that requested you actually use citations?
Dr. Hamillton:
Is this how you react to colleagues who request evidence for on how you treat a patient?
Please provide the evidence for your statements in your first comment. I have been waiting for the answers to my questions from some qualified healthcare provider for a very long time. I am disappointed that you are not going to accommodate my request.
CG,
Nah. The rarity of host-to-host transmission is not characteristic of OPV. In fact, the goal of OPV administration after infecting its recipient is to shed the infectious virus and transmit it to contacts thereby establishing the chain of infection. What's something rare is that naive children rarely avoid and escape being infected by the vaccine virus where OPV is available. They are always the first recipient of the infectious poliovirus. Not good.
Killed microorganisms like the IPV, if left alone at the mucosal surface, cannot cause infection because they will be repelled by the innate barrier. So why is IPV injected? To intentionally promote infection. Unlike its Big Bro OPV, the IPV is more personal and selfish. It won't share the virus to others. Who cares when everyone else gets inoculated.
Hi Gayl! Welcome back!
Got those citations?
Chris
Chis, why do you believe that it is scientifically plausible that a person can be trapped and born into the wrong body? Please provide scientific evidence for your beliefs. You keep avoiding this question. I thought your opinions were all science based medicine opinions and that your logic was of sound mind.
Do you have physiology related beliefs that are based in science? Are they rooted in political correctness and personal philosophy instead?
I think you know the answer. You know I know the answer. That is why you won't answer it. Don't give me the killfile excuse because I know you read my posts. I have evidence of your "non-reading" replies.
Thingy is trying to change the definition of infection, again.
Infection requires replication, something a dead organism cannot do. Stimulating an immune response without infection is the entire point of a killed vaccine.
Some questions:
Th1Th2, you admitted that the OPV only rarely causes paralysis, but do you r realize how severely that undercuts your own argument? Is the live polio vaccine less dangerous than wild-type polio or not?
Gayl Hamilton, you were asked repeatedly for citations. Why are you only responding to a few scattered insults? Are you really that petty?
Augustine, do you really think talk like that has a place in adult conversation?
Gray,
All I see is your persistent shifting between germ-loving and germ-denialism. But didn't you notice that either way, you're still promoting poliovirus and the disease itself?
You said:
So what are you trying to deny now? Or you're asking how many were infected by the live-virus version?
@Dr. Hamilton
"I find it quite interesting that some responders to my post (#238) resort to personal attacks and insults as a method of reply....seriously??? That is not part of the art of debate.
Grow up!"
So the art of debate is telling people to not resort to personal attacks and insults but to tell people to grow up?
Understood.
Fixed that for you, Thingy.
I will admit I was wrong to assume you favoured vitalist theories of disease, but now I see how I made the mistake; you instead seem to harbour ideas of abiogenic disease transmission that just aren't supported by modern science. (Well, maybe prions behave the way you think bacteria and virii do... but I'd have to ask someone with a lot more knowledge in that field to comment on that.)
I will state, simply, that germs become dangerous because they reproduce... and the killed virii in IPV don't reproduce.
-- Steve
dt,
And that's exactly what happened to OPV. It reverted to neurovirulence and spawned to a new monster called VDPV.
Dammit, scienceblogs killed my strikeouts. Instead, please use the following blockquote in my previous comment:
Sorry for the confusion.
-- Steve
Maybe Gayl Hamilton MD thinks that requests for citations are personal attacks. After all, we're not just taking her assertions at her word. We're demanding evidence! We don't trust her! We think she could be wrong! Or lying!
How awful of us.
Th1Th2:
CG,
No, I'm telling you the sequence. A successful infection must be established before any replication could take place. Like the OPV, the poliovirus must first infect and then replicate in the gut. However, the IPV and other killed microorganisms are incapable of infecting the mucosa let alone the underlying tissues like the muscles, they have to be injected to establish an infection site which then triggers an immune response. And since they are non-replicating, the IPV is restricted to the host therefore does not promote further transmission.
Wrong.
They infect nothing. The destroyed virus particles can't even enter cells. The are taken up and degraded by antigen presenting cells which then activate the adaptive immune system. There is no infection by any definition of the word.
Gray,
You don't get it, do you? I am antivaccine because I do not promote vaccines the same way I am also anti-pox because I don't promote nonsense exposure to natural infection. I advocate infection control by cutting the chain of transmission and now you want me to promote the lesser of the two evils? So when do you plan of getting sexually harassed ? Don't worry it's less dangerous than rape? Ask your doctor about it.
Wrong, Th1Th2. The correct sequence is:
A successful invasion must be established before replication can take place. Once replication takes place, an infection has occurred. Invasion, replication, then and only then do you have an infection.
Ah, but you see, in Thingish any sort of reaction to anything related to a virus qualifies as an "infection" with the virus.
Seriously. You'd have better luck talking with your dining room table; it's a lot smarter.
Th1Th2, how do you propose to do that? Earlier, you had said "That is if you ask a smart person who knows how to take care of a sick child at home (not hospital)." What does a smart person do that generations before hadn't? What's your alternative? And by the way, if it's unworkable, then yes, we do have to take the lesser of two evils. Driving defensively can slow traffic, but it's still better than accidents.
Anton,
That will eventually happen following a successful infection of the host. So why is the IPV not given per orem?
After long observation I think I finally understand Th1Th2. Rather than vaccination, the way to avoid disease is not get infected! Its so simple, why has nobody thought of it before?
Th1Th2,
That will also happen without an infection. For example, most allergens don't infect people, but they create an immune reaction.
So that it won't be destroyed by the digestive process.
W. Kevin Vicklund,
No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, that is introduced in the body is infection.
Hence, you cannot establish the VZV vaccine at the mucosal surface because they will be eliminated. In order to successfully infect the host, the vaccine must invade the deep subcutaneous tissues and you know how the vaccine is administered.
CG,
None of those things will occur, not even infection, if they are restricted and eliminated early on at the mucosal level. That is, they are eliminated by non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system.
That may be true, but things can still get past the first layer. You are aware of that, aren't you?
W. Kevin Vicklund,
Wrong. Any pathogen, replicating or not, which is introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialists will deny this.
Which is why the VZV vaccine will be more successful in causing infection by invading the deep subcutaneous tissues rather than being cleared at the mucosal surface. And you know how this vaccine is administered right?
Surprisingly, my comments are being cleared at the mucosa.
Maybe it's time to vaccinate instead.
Ah, again with your inaccurate metaphors.
Vaccination is actually more like self-defense teaching. Someone pretends to assault you and you learn some defensive moves. Later on, if you are attacked for real, maybe you will have a better chance of escaping unharmed. Or less harmed.
(and yes, the best defense is to run away, but it's not always feasible)
Also, please notice that, like vaccinations, attending a self-defense training is not without risks of injuries (been there, done that...). But it's less risky than the real thing.
Which would accomplish absolutely nothing. The wild type virus, with all its functioning proteins that it uses to get through the innate immune system, would still be able to infect (real infection, not Thingy's "infection") that person.
Although I am from the UK, I feel strongly about this and have therefore signed, tweeted and emailed. I have also pasted the email into my blog (http://josephinejones.wordpress.com/) and invite anyone to plagiarise it.
I only started blogging in the last month so have virtually no readers. Therefore couldn't help engaging with an antivax guy who commented (who also says he has a biology degree), ended up spending more time on this than the original complaint. Brilliant takedown by Mike - "is this the same Tony that also graduated in astrophysics, yet believes the Earth is flat?"
#353
What do you mean by
"mucosal level"? and "eliminated ny non-adaptive mechanism of the immune system"?
Perhaps you are referring to MALT?
Sexual harassment prevents rape? Who knew?
That sexual harassment bit goes to further show that Th1Th2 lives in a very special world of fantasy, one that is even more bizarre than Htrae. Add that bit to one of the scary surprises in her special mind freak funhouse ride.
I feel a bit sorry for Th1Th2. Its repeated imagery of the forcible defilement of the bodies of naive children and its repeated invocation of sexual harassment and rape in this inappropriate context suggests something quite sad about its childhood.
So thingy - any luck getting custody back of your kid?
LW, which is exactly why I fear for any child in her care.
Is there actually any reason to suspect that Th1Th2 has ever gotten near a procreative situation? I mean, the obsession with inoculation, infection, and filth doesn't seem promising.
Narad pointed to a user on sMothering that was much like Th1Th2, it seemed to indicate she had an infant. Here is a useful Google. (you can also use INF-ss)
The MFC thread you hinted at seems to indicate so. Though it may have just been her trolling.
Oh, man, my own petard. I'll have to go reread them.
Sauceress,
No. I was referring to mucous membranes that serve as a physical barrier against pathogens. They also contain non-specific chemicals produced by the body including the innate non-specific IgA that prevents the entry of pathogenic microorganisms.
The MALT lies beneath the mucous membranes. If there is a breach in the integrity of the skin and the mucosal surface, the MALT will initiate the adaptive mechanism against invading pathogens.
CG,
That would be great. It means no infection.
And even dead microorganisms can get through the innate immune system and infect the deep tissues. I wonder why. Haha.
Do you have any evidence a real infection is taking place? Your assertions aren't enough, anyone can make claims, but without decisive evidence, they are meaningless.
Heliantus,
Really? How could children defend themselves against live vaccines from infecting their body when you couldn't even defend yourself against dead microorganisms? Some self-defense.
Th1Th2, if the human body couldn't defend itself against dead microorganisms, we'd all be dead now. And don't talk about how vaccines are "injected into the body", people get cuts and scrapes all the time. So tell me, why are we all still alive?
The same way they defend themselves against wild pathogens, only better: attenuated viruses from live vaccines are notorious for having reduced pathogenic capabilities. That's what they have been designed for.
Dead microorganisms are even easier, they don't fight back.
I have no trouble defending myself against dead micro-organisms, it's the live ones which are worrying me. How could a dead bug do anything to anyone? It's dead.
Are you talking about zombie microorganisms?
Hellacious
If it were laying on the concrete it couldn't.
Gray/Heliantus,
I was pertaining to dead microorganisms in the vaccine. It should be on the top of your lists. Are you guys going to deny again?
Yeah, all it takes is a breach in the barrier. A cut, a scrape, an injection.
No, they can't. They're dead. They can't replicate. Replication is required in order for something to be an infection. You're making a claim equivalent to "necrophiliacs impregnate dead women."
Heliantus,
How? By inviting them?
W. Kevin Vicklund,
You just said they can.
There are infections that do not require replication.
Not even close.
WKV,
You just said they can.
There are infections that do not require replication.
Not even close.
Just when I thought Thingy could not say anything stupider.
Except the vaccine wouldn't induce immunity and they would still get sick when exposed to the virus, which completely defeats the point of vaccinating.
Once again you attempt to redefine words. A dead microorganism cannot infect anything, ever.
Thingy is clearly far, far beyond reason.
Gray,
Same as yours.
To whom it may concern:
You just said they can.
No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body by breaching the innate system is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.
Not even close.
For the umpteenth time,
That's one hell of anti-Th1Th2 Ab right there.
CG:
This should be no surprise. She thinks toddlers know to stay on sidewalks and not play in the dirt!
You just said they can.
No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.
Not even close.
CG/WKV
You just said they can.
No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection. Of course, any germ-denialist will deny this. Also, there are infections that do not require replication.
Not even close.
I have defined Thingy as furniture. It may now be sold or otherwise disposed of. Since Thingy is now furniture, anyone continuing to argue with it is now defined as insane. With luck, it may go away.
@ Militant Agnostic
That's an insult to furnitures. I had better conversations with my dinner table (or was it about it? Someone just redefined the meaning of dead/alive, I'm a bit confused).
Oh, and in case any passerby wonders about censorship on this blog:
When your post has more than two links, or contains some specific keywords (like you are a Nigerian prince with a million dollars to give away), your comment will be automatically held in moderation limbo, pending the blog's author review and approval.
If you post many comments in a short time, or very late at night, it will trigger the automatic 'comment received and held for approval', too.
Eventually the author will wake up (even a shiny box of light needs to sleep), come around his blog and approve your posts.
No need for paranoia.
My dinner table says as many meaningful things as the Thing, and spouts a lot less nonsense. So yeah, greatly superior.
How long did it take you to come up with this very idiotic excuse?
A latent herpesvirus is not dead. It is still expressing genes and is quite capable of going lytic and replicating.
On the other hand, a dead virus isn't going to spring to life and start replicating.
It appears that Gayl Hamilton's "citation" post was held up in moderation, because it is basically a very long copy paste.
In order to be fair to Gayl, I'll attempt a respectful response: Take your scary numbers and shove off. A citation usually is a simple matter of citing the study or site where one can view the data independent of your attempts to make them look worse. In fact, I see a few places where fake math has been used to make the numbers look worse, basically multiplying the percentages by 3 without verification of that method (it isn't valid, btw).
What you are doing is intentionally misrepresenting the statistics in a post-vaccination environment to scare people, while keeping them ignorant of the dangers of diseases for which a vaccine exists. You're playing the same dishonest and dangerous game as AoA or NVIC.
I also did some work looking for any papers in which you might have authored. I assumed the titles would be something like "The efficacy of prayer in healing polio". Can you let us all know when that will be published?
CG,
Check #345. It's all about the sequence. Infection precedes replication. So a dead virus can only infect but not replicate.
Thingy, to no one's surprise, has a rather non-standard definition of "infection". To (her?) it seems to be any intrusion of foreign material into the tissues... which explains a lot of the objection to killed-virus vaccines impurifying our precious bodily fluids.
Meanwhile, I (and most other folks here I suspect) are using the following medical definition:
(emphasis mine)
Without replication (or the possibility of replication, in the case of dormant infections like herpes and shingles) there is no infection. And a killed virus vaccine can never replicate. That's why it's called "killed".
IPV does not infect tissue, because it's dead and the dead don't reproduce. (Sorry, Mr. Romero.)
(In before someone else coins the term "microzombies"! Gnaar... braaaaains...)
-- Steve
Once again, Th1Th2 assumes that asserting a statement is all that is required to prove it. He still hasn't answered why, if the human body is so susceptible to infection, we aren't all dead from minor cuts and scrapes.
Actually that's still wrong, there's more to infection than viral entry, but I'm going to ignore that for a second because it's still irrelevant.
The dead viruses contained in a vaccine cannot even enter cells. Their proteins are misfolded and damaged.
JayK:
... Using "data" from a "cover your ass" lawyer written package insert, which is not a scientific cite. It also does not answer the question of how much more dangerous the DTaP vaccine is versus pertussis because it does not show the relative risk.
Dr. Hamilton, in the future when we ask for cites please restrict those to the full papers (not letters or opinion pieces) indexed in PubMed.
(And why, for the love of mud, is anyone still trying to reason with that funhouse ride of bizarre insanity who seems to think "dead" viruses can replicate?)
Hi Gayl (again)!
Remember this?
I realize that you're probably pretty busy promoting disease in children, but if you could get me those cites, well, that would be great. Mmmmmkay?
...and injections?
Th1Th2, on what planet is that considered a proper answers? The human body takes far more cuts and scrapes than injections. Of course, I don't expect you to figure something like that out on your own.
@Gray Falcon
It's an appropriate response when you are so scared you soil yourself at the thought of a needle.
More seriously, it's a common human failing to discount the risks of what we find familiar, and to emphasize the risks of the unusual. That's what makes us able to get behind the wheel and drive every day, but cringe in fear that a terrorist might hijack our airplane.
It's funny to see where this thread and Thingy have gone. Now I'm imagining the shambling corpses of cartoon viruses being held back by Osmosis Jones.
I can't believe Th1Th2 is at it again. It's like watching a train wreck - you want to look away, but you can't:
Now, there is a slight possibility that Th1Th2 is confused about the difference between "not replicating" and "dead". After all, one of the "hot" topics in medical microbiology is bacterial "persistence", where they are alive but don't replicate (and have minimal metabolic demands) for a prolonged period of time. If this is what Th1Th2 is talking about, a more accurate way of putting it would be:
After all, an "infection" requires at least a minimal amount of replication, otherwise it's not an infection. Pathogens (or non-pathogens) introduced into the body would be an inocculation; an infection is what occurs when the inocculum replicates.
But Th1Th2, never content to merely suggest incompetence, continues:
For example....?
The only example I can come up with is rather contrived: an infusion of massive numbers of bacteria, fungi, archaea or other foreign organism (even viruses) could cause a massive immune response, possibly a fatal immune response, even if they were somehow altered to be viable (i.e. not dead) but unable to replicate. Heck, even an infusion of massive amounts of dead bacteria (etc.) could trigger a fatal immune response.
Apart from that example, I can't think of an infection (and the example isn't really an infection, per se) that doesn't involve replication.
I suppose it's also possible that Th1Th2 is playing a sort of "word game" and means that the bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc. aren't replicating at the time of the injection. After all, even with live virus vaccines, the virus isn't replicating in the syringe - it needs live human cells to do that.
However, it's more than a bit of a stretch to say that the surface proteins in the hepatitis B vaccine or the toxoids in the tetanus or diphtheria vaccines can "infect" because they aren't even the whole organism.
Unfortunately, the most likely explanation is that Th1Th2 hasn't a clue about what "infection" or "replication" actually mean. To paraphrase Th1Th2 (and this is the second time I've used this in two days):
Prometheus
No. Any pathogen, replicating or not, when introduced in the body is infection.
If this usage catches on, newspaper reports will talk of bullet infections instead of gunshot wounds, and knife infections instead of a fatal stabbing.
A non-replicating infection is a type of latent infection. It is an infection in which replication has halted, but retains the ability to resume replication at a later date. A dead pathogen does not retain the ability to resume replication, so it can't establish a non-replicating infection.
NB: herpesvirus (Th1Th2's example) initially replicates in the ganglion, but something causes the viral DNA to become circular (kind of like a plasmid). The virus doesn't replicate in this form, but snip it at the right spot, and replication starts right back up. Or as ERV would say:
OMG VIRUS SEXY TIMEZ!!! AI MAKEZ BABBY VIRUS NAUW!!!
Not to mention the fact that even while latent, a herpesvirus is still expressing genes. It's very far from dead.
Prometheus,
Like I said it's all about the sequence. Infection comes before replication. Infection occurs when a naive child opens his mouth or exposes his arm to acquire the pathogenic agent. Whether the pathogen replicates or not (live or killed), does not matter for there are vaccines that promote host-to-host transmission of infectious pathogens and there are that cause noncommunicable infection. Hence, infection-induced immunity is the primary goal behind vaccination, not infection control let alone prevention. So a little nitpicking would make your statement true.
Prometheus,
Like I said it's all about the sequence. Infection comes before replication. Infection occurs when a naive child opens his mouth or exposes his arm to acquire the pathogenic agent. Whether the pathogen replicates or not (live or killed), does not matter for there are vaccines that promote host-to-host transmission of infectious pathogens and there are that cause noncommunicable infection. Hence, infection-induced immunity is the primary goal behind vaccination, not infection control let alone prevention. So a little nitpicking would make your statement true.
Tell me, Th1Th2, do you have any support for your claims beyond "Take my word for it?"
Prometheus,
Infection occurs when the pathogen is present in the host's tissue either by direct inoculation or exposure to natural infection.
Talk about incompetence. Vaccines often fail to induce immunity because of their incompetence to sustain prolonged antigenic stimulation.
Vaccine-induced infections particularly caused by the use of killed, fragmented or recombinant DNA-based microorganisms.
So if they cannot "infect", how did they get through the innate barrier like the skin and end up deep in the host's tissues and "they aren't even the whole organism"?
It's science-based and the only way to challenge vaccine aplogists is through science.
W. Kevin Vicklund,
The inability of killed pathogen to replicate is why they only cause noncommunicable infection to the host but not transmission to others.
For the last time, you are wrong. You don't get to redefine words to suit your purposes.
An infection is the colonization of a host by a parasitic organism. Colonization requires a living organism living in another, which means this requires replication or at least the possibility or replication.
Dead things cannot do this so they cannot infect anything, ever. You don't get to redefine words to suit your purposes.
Proteins and other non-living things can in a few instances cause disease. Many bacteria toxins and even a few viral proteins can do this in the absence of their organism. This is not an infection. There is no colonization of the host.
The only non-living thing that can cause an infection is a prion, and it more or less replicates by causing the host protein to misfold.
herr doktor bimler,
Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections. I thought vaccine apologists are a lot smarter than 5th graders.
Th1Th2:
Where are you getting your science? You can't just make science up, you need to work from physical evidence. So what's your evidence?
Poor Thingy. She thinks cars are instantaneous teleportation devices, necrophiliacs can impregnate dead women, and dead pathogens are infectious.
Well, she does live in this fantastical funhouse that exists only in her strange convoluted brain.
Vicklund,
Like I said before, it's better to let go of this quietly than be exposed as germ-denialists. There are other ways though for them to evade scientific reasoning and utter humiliation, by means of ad hominem, faulty analogies and speculations. Check out #209, #386 and #415. If you cannot refute them with science, then that's fine with me.
Once again, Th1Th2, it's not up to us to prove you wrong, it's up to you to show you're right. You're just making claims, where's your evidence?
George W. Julian, discussing Lincoln's views on the Emancipation Proclamation:
Calling diffusion an injection does not make it an injection. Calling an inoculation an infection does not make it an infection. We have repeatedly refuted #209, #386, and #415 using the correct scientific definitions. You are misusing these terms to poison the well.
Like I said before, it's better to let go of this quietly than be exposed as germ-denialists.
That's a good one. To whom do you imagine one's "germ denialism" would be "exposed" in the first place? By all appearances, this basically is your audience.
Even news editors know what pathogens are. So no, they will not use terms like bullet and knife infections.
Alas, that was back in the good old days before people decided that the consensus meanings of words could be ignored, and that they were free to come up with their own definitions that were more supportive of the case they were arguing.
CG,
That one up there is why you're the one guilty of redefining words. You have recklessly misidentified colonization with infection. Colonization occurs when the pathogen is present at the skin/mucosal surface without tissue invasion. The mere presence or multiplication of a pathogen at the host's skin/mucosal surface does not necessarily constitute infection. It has to be present at the host's tissue for infection to occur.
Hence, killed vaccines are intentionally injected into the host's tissue to promote infection. They cannot colonize and infect an intact skin because they are dead thus they will be eliminated. Some vaccines though like the OPV purposely colonize and infect the human gut.
If you only knew where colonization takes place then you wouldn't be this totally confused.
W. Kevin Vicklund,
No. What I see is profound germ-denialism with persistent contradiction.
I definitely see profound confusion and persistent contradiction here, but it's in your comments Th1Th2. Maybe you should try taking a course in immunology - seriously.
Immunology was the first subject that I really struggled with, as it's so damnably complicated. It did engender a deep sense of humility and appreciation for those who figured all that stuff out.
The words, 'complement cascade' still make me shudder...
Time to killfile the Thing. He/She is becoming repetitive and boring to read. And still makes up definitions to words. I have more to my life than deal with the Thing.
Thing, meet killfile. Killfile, meet Thing. Enjoy each other.
I've been away, but I have one last thing in this thread for Humpty Dumpty...
#372
You know, Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.
You know, Th1Th2 never did answer my request for evidence.
It might be simpler to just capitulate and see if there's anything else. I mean, OK, I'm guilty of "profound germ-denialism with persistent contradiction." So? Do I get a pamphlet or something?
Evidence? Eveedense? Humpty Dumpty don't need no damn eveee-dense!
It don't need none of them damned edukase-shuns either!
Krebiozen:
Actually a course in basic English might be more appropriate. She keeps using definitions of several words that only make sense to her, and no one else.
Chris,
How about simply looking at the anatomy of the skin before you embarrass yourself again and again? Have you forgotten what you said?
Now where is your own version of the skin which you claimed does not consist of blood vessels?
How about a trivia for the confused and obtuse.
And Thing answers Chris' question about whether Thing knows the difference between veins, arteries, capillaries and muscle with a resounding 'no!' (and with a dirty great strawman, but who's keeping track of Thing1Thing2's straw army?)
Sauceress,
Evidence of ignorance and humiliation, you sure have plenty of it. Check out #303 and #372.
Th1Th2, I said evidence, not claims. Anyone can make claims. I can claim that you practice black magic. Without evidence, though, claims are meaningless.
Chris,
You are just as confused. Check out #265. Do you also have your new version of the skin anatomy?
Gray,
.
You boldly claimed this. Are you going to deny it again and again?
Now where is your evidence?
Th1Th2, you're assuming that there are only two extremes, that vaccines always cause infection, or that they never cause infection. I said that the live-virus vaccine caused a minor infection, I never claimed a killed virus could infect people. You claimed that ALL vaccinations cause infections, please provide evidence for that.
Also, do you have any evidence that veins and capillaries are identical?
@Humpty Dumpty #436
First up..
TH1TH2 #303 response to Sauceress #300
Yes, and your point is?
Chris asked:
TH1TH2 reponded:
Perhaps Humpty can explain what it was it meant to imply by its answer?
Next #372
Regarding your inability to comprehend the difference between mucosal epithelia and MALT, as well your ignorance as to the difference between innate and adaptive immune responses, I've posted a response to that as well.
No doubt, due to my post containing a link which details the differences between the innate and adaptive immune response, that post is still in moderation. Here's that post without the html link:
Sauceress:
[quote]
I've been away, but I have one last thing in this thread for Humpty Dumpty...
#372
My responses are in moderation.
@#434
A Vein is a blood vessel, but a blood vessel is not necessarily a vein. Do you understand?
Gray Falcon,
You know for sure that is a big slap on Chris' face you made there. You're actually disagreeing with her when she claimed the live measles virus vaccine has prevented and reduced the incidence of measles infection. So who's among you is the real germ-denialist? Haha
Yes. ALL vaccinations cause infection. Some cause transmissible infections (live vaccines) and others promote noncommunicable infections(killed, fragmented, recombinant DNA-based vaccines).
It's simple. The body's immune response against vaccines.
Gray,
Who said they are identical?
Th1Th2
Not good enough. My body provides a strong immune response against pollen, and that certainly isn't an infection. Try again.
You did, when you pointed the number of blood vessels per square inch in a body, and claimed that as proof that vaccines are administered intravenously.
Gray,
It's not an infection; it's called shameless ignorance. Anybody with a brainstem knows that infections are caused by pathogens and not allergens. I did call you a germ-denialist for a reason. Of course, you will never stop ridiculing yourself.
Check out #157. This what I said. "Parenteral vaccines are administered into areas which are highly vascularized i.e. abundant blood supply found in the deltoid."
Of course, vaccines can also be given intravenously. Check out #77 and #99. Do you have any problem with that?
What would one call a hybridisation of Humpty Dumpty and Monty Python's Black Knight?
I withdraw my suggestion that Th1Th2 should take immunology classes. I would not wish to be responsible in any way for a teacher's nervous breakdown.
Did you even read my post? Do you know what allergies are? Tell me, where are you getting your information from? So, why do I get sinus headaches and sniffles during pollen season, if not allergies?
Th1Th2, please provide evidence for your claims. Don't just say things like "Anybody with a brainstem knows that", I've heard similar arguments from white supremacists.
Actually, you are guilty of not understanding what I wrote, not to mention still redefining words.
An infection of an organism is a kind of colonization by a parasite that is detrimental to the host.
To quote a medical dictionary, an infection: the state produced by the establishment of an infective agent in or on a suitable host
And the establishment of an infective agent is, by definition, a colonization. Not to mention killed things can't establish anything, you know, being dead and all.
Again, wrong.
Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection. E. coli O157:H7 doesn't leave the intestine, yet it still causes an infection.
I hate to play this cared, you are arguing with a microbiologist who studies an animal commensal and a human pathogen. The difference between colonization and infection is a very fine line.
You are clearly very, very confused about basic microbiology and immunology.
No, no, no!
The problem is that that the rest of us don't speak Thinglish.
HORRORS!!! OMG! OMG! OMG!!!! An ad (public service announcement) that lets people know they have a CHOICE whether to have themselves or their child injected with a possibly harmful, possibly ineffective substance! GET THE FACTS. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! Exemptions (medical, religious, "personal belief") to mandatory school-entry vaccination are available. (They vary, depending upon your state.)
icasshole@454:
FIFY.
"informed consent advocate", can you please tell us why a supplement seller (Mercola) and a public relations mavin (Barbara Loe Fisher) are a better source of medical information than the American Academy of Pediatrics? Please provide documentation of Ms. Fisher's medical education credentials, and Mercola's pediatric's and vaccine research papers. Thank you.
Chris, not a clinician but a rocket scientist and childhood military traveler therefore knows everything about everything:
http://www.mercola.com/forms/background.htm
http://www.nvic.org/about.aspx
As soon as you give ORAC's peer reviewed of the same.
BTW the AAP is a trade organization. As a trade organization it's first and foremost duty is to it's professional members. It seeks to protect itself's interests and the interest's of it's members.
Vaccination is a major part of it's financial business.
Augustine: You are absolutely clueless and talking out of your a**. It is one thing to talk about Big Pharma making money off vaccines, but you betray your utter ignorance when you imply that pediatricians make a buch of money off vaccines. I am currently employed by a large medical company and am paid a salary. I recieve NO bonus or other benefit from administering vaccines to protect my patients. I have also worked at several small pediatric practices that either lost money or barely broke even managing the administration of vaccines. The paperwork is massive (tracking the lotsin the patient chart, in the vaccine log, monitoring the refidgerator and freezer temps and documenting, etc.). Do us all a favor and educate yourself a little before start typing a comment.
Uh, have you ever heard of a well baby visit? If it weren't for vaccines then those visits wouldn't exist. It doesn't take a doctor to weigh a baby.
And pediatricians in general don't make a bunch of money (relatively speaking),and I didn't imply that they did. But the vaccine visit comprises a major part of practice. But I would guess that the AAP has just a teenie bit more money than a pediatrician in private practice. And when you add up all of the pediatricians influenced by the AAP, that's a lot of money that flows and changes hands.
Augustine: Let me quote you: "Vaccination is a major part of it's financial business."
Look I have read enough of your comments to know you are not stupid, so I am left to believe that you are lazy. Have you ever taken your child in for a check up. Vaccination is a tiny part of a "well child" visit. There is developmental screening (gross motor, fine motor and speach), there is monitoring of growth, discussing parenting techniques, dealing with parental concerns and performing a complete physical exam. In fact of the 10 "well child" visits in the first two years of life, vaccines are only administered at 5 or 6. Even if we eliminated all vaccine preventable disease these visits would still occur.
I suspect Augustine's child is imaginary just like his evidence.
"Look I have read enough of your comments to know you are not stupid"
I've read enough of augustine's comments to know that it is astonishingly stupid.
CG,
You're bluffing again. I was surprised you never mentioned any of the the common childhood diseases a.k.a. VPDs as good examples of nasty infections. Don't you guys preach this all the time? I mean polio causing paralysis, measles -> encephalitis, pertussis -> pneumonia and so on and so forth. Instead you chose E. coli O157:H7 because "it doesn't leave the intestine"? Oh really? Or maybe because something else is causing the kidneys to fail. eh? (Hint: HUS)
You're no different than any of those clueless pretenders.
Then tell me the difference instead of contradicting yourself when you claimed this...
I shouldn't feed the troll, but I can't ignore this sort of ignorant arrogance.
Th1Th2 Do you really think you are so clever you have figured out that the past 150 years of microbiology is all wrong? That the thousands of scientists (including CG) who have spent their lives studying and researching this were all "clueless pretenders", despite the huge amount of overwhelming evidence that confirms they are right? You might benefit from researching the work of some of these Nobel Prize winning scientists. It might give you some idea of the sheer volume of research that supports the ideas you ridicule.
Every comment you post makes it even more obvious that you have misunderstood the most basic elements of immunology and microbiology.
Krebiozen,
Well, the burden of proof is yours to support CG's false claim that "Tissue invasion is not a requirement for infection." Again there are a dozen *sigh* VPDs to choose from but why pick on the E. coli O157:H7? For someone who is unable to distinguish colonization from infection is definitely a clueless pretender. Let's start with that first.
Th1Th2 - I'm not really interested in futile semantic arguments when you seem to think you can redefine words to mean whatever you want. If you can express what you are trying to explain in understandable English, using the dictionary definitions of the words you use, please do so. Otherwise, you are wasting everyone's time.
So let me get this straight...they are promoting "get informed" and you are stating that they are quacks and anti-vaccine "loons"??? So are you one of the those "just follow your government, don't ask questions" people as well? got to say, I am with the pro freedom, pro American, pro choice, pro HUMAN "loons". God, it feels good to be a loon!!
I had polio enough said.
It looks like the Jumbotron is up for grabs to anyone with the cash to pay for it. The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) is also running an ad of their own, claiming to inform the public about Lyme disease. Unfortunately, much of what they have to say is unreliable and/or misleading. Is there an adult in charge of supervising the content of the Jumbotron, or is it nothing more than a giant, electronic graffiti machine?