Respectful Insolence

A couple of months ago, a reader sent me an article that really disturbed me. In fact, I had originally been planning to write about it not long after I received it. However, as I’ve mentioned before, when it comes to blogging, I’m a bit like Dug the Talking Dog from the movie Up in that I’m easily distracted. Unlike Dug, what distracts me aren’t squirrels, but rather bright, shiney pieces of pseudoscience, quackery, paranormal, or otherwise weird nonsense. Sometimes after I’m distracted I come back to the topic I had originally wanted to blog about. Sometimes I don’t. Or, sometimes (like this time), it takes me nearly two months. I realize that that’s kind of a lame excuse, but, well, that’s just how Orac rolls. Except that Orac can’t roll, being a square Plexiglass box full of multicolored blinking lights and all.

In any case, I just realize that, as far as I can tell, I’ve never blogged about this bit of cancer quackery before. Shocking, I know. I thought I had covered pretty much every major form of cancer quackery at least once over the seven and a half years this blog has been in existence. But I was wrong! This cannot stand! I must cover it!

Unfortunately, the article that brought my attention (back) to this particular form of cancer quackery is a story that is very sad. It is the story of Bernie Mulligan:

To Bernie Mulligan, chemotherapy is just a temporary setback.

The 45-year-old carpenter at the University of Windsor refused all traditional treatments for his terminal stomach cancer for about two months, until complications from an expanding liver landed him in the hospital.

On Monday, he reluctantly started chemotherapy for the first time.

Doctors say Mulligan will be lucky if he lives another two months, but he said he’s not worried. He just needs the chemotherapy to shrink his liver to the point where he can get back to the real cure, he said — a supplement in a rainbow-coloured bottle called Cantron.

“That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me. This stuff is not a cure, chemo’s not a cure,” he said. “When I got rushed into the hospital two weeks ago, yes, I thought I was done. But now I’m confident.”

Mulligan is one of many Windsor cancer patients who have crossed the border over the years to attend meetings of an organization based out of Warren, Mich., that promotes Cantron as a miracle cure.

Stomach cancer is, generally speaking, a bad actor. It’s the sort of tumor that’s hard enough to treat even when it’s localized to the stomach, but when it’s metastasized to the liver, as it has in Mr. Mulligan’s case, it’s incurable.

According to a video on the Windsor Star website, back in February Mulligan had been experiencing pains in his upper abdomen. He thought it was a “stomach bug” and was going to see his family doctor that very day when he started vomiting blood and ended up in the emergency room. At the time, it was found that he had numerous metastases in his liver. Ultimately the primary cancer was located and turned out to be what sounds to me like an upper stomach cancer or a cancer at the gastroesophageal junction, which, if true, is more esophageal cancer than gastric cancer. Be that as it may, esophageal cancer is a bad actor, too.

It’s a horrible thing when a man this young is faced with a terminal cancer diagnosis, and that’s exactly what Mulligan was facing. However, if there’s one thing I always try to emphasize, it’s that “incurable” does not mean “not treatable.” If there’s one area of cancer care that’s advanced enormously over the last 20 or 30 years, it’s palliative care. Even though palliative care is not designed to prolong life but rather to relieve symptoms, there is evidence that good palliative care results in prolongation of life. Of course, I realize that telling a 45-year-old man, who probably expected to live another 35 or 40 years, that we have good palliative care is not a message that is likely to be satisfying. We all want to live!

Enter the cancer quacks

Although it is the ethical and science-based thing to do to provide an honest assessment of prognosis based on the patient’s presentation and what we know from science, unfortunately, there are plenty of “alternative” medicine practitioners out there who are more than happy to give a message of hope when there is little or no hope. Such a message causes a lot of harm, such as leading the patient to waste huge amounts of money to the point where he might bankrupt his family and leave nothing left for them after he’s gone, causing unnecessary pain and complications, and, to put it bluntly, deceiving the patient with false hope. Of course, some patients are more susceptible to false hope than others, and Mulligan appears to be one of those patients. In his video, he talks about eschewing conventional therapy and going for homeopathic remedies before discovering Cantron.

But what is Cantron? The same basic formula has appeared under a wide variety of names, such as Sheridan’s Formula, Jim’s Juice, JS–114, JS–101, 126–F, Crocinic Acid, and, of course, Entelev, Protocel, and Cantron. The version of the magic cancer cure being used by Bernie Mulligan is sold by a company called Medical Research Products. It comes in bottles festooned with happy, cheerful colors, and its sales pitch runs like this:

Cantron® is an amazing bio-electrical wellness formulation. It provides astonishing health benefits like no other substance on Earth. It is the world’s most potent antioxidant and scavenger of abnormal proteins which accumulate in the blood, tissues, organs and joints. Cantron is known to dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses. Since 1984, it has received rave reviews from those who have taken it. One customer summed it up perfectly on an Internet chat site when she emphatically stated: “How blessed we are to know about Cantron.”

I wouldn’t exactly put it that way.

Notice the pure snake oil-style appeal mixed with what I like to call science word salad. “Bio-electric wellness formulation”? It’s a meaningless term. “Scavenger of abnormal proteins”? Highly unlikely. “Dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses”? That’s just another way of phrasing the quack’s favorite meaninglessly vague claim that his nostrum “boosts the immune system.” Then, of course, there is the appeal to testimonial, wherein no science is presented but instead we’re told how much people like the product and how much good it’s allegedly done for people.

But what is Cantron? It turns out that there are several products that are very similar to Cantron. The original was Entelev, later rebranded as CanCell, which, as described in the article and on various web pages and articles as having first been conceived and compounded in the 1936 by a chemist working for the Dow Chemical Company named James V. Sheridan, who first called his concoction Entelev. Why did he choose that name? In an interview, Sheridan once said that the idea came to him in a dream that he believed to be inspired by God, explaining many years later that the name Entelev came from “entelechy” (that part of the living process known only to God) and “ev” (which came from the word “electrovalent”), the latter being added so that the name would have something for everyone. Another version of the tale, told by a believer, can be found here.

According to the company website, Sheridan apparently did some animal studies in the late 1940s (one wonders why it took him 10 or 12 years to go from making up his concoction to doing animal studies), but there is precious little objective evidence from parties not selling the compound that he ever did anything of the sort. It’s also claimed that he attempted to do clinical trials while working at the Michigan Cancer Institute back in the 1950s. That claim actually raised an eyebrow, because, being in Michigan, I had never heard of the Michigan Cancer Institute. There is currently a Michigan Cancer Institute. However, it doesn’t appear to be a research-based institution but rather part of a private hospital. As is so often the case in stories like this, the history just doesn’t add up.

Be that as it may, according to the company website the next phase of the story occurred in the late 1950s through the 1960s, when, it is claimed, Sheridan was working for Battelle Laboratories, he did more work on his treatment. I don’t have direct knowledge that can help me evaluate this claim (although I do find it curious that so little is revealed about what Sheridan was doing , but I did do a PubMed search for James V. Sheridan and failed to find any publications by him at all. Given that he continued to work on Entelev at least into the 1980s, if he had published anything in the peer-reviewed literature it should be locatable on PubMed. It’s not. Then, from 1974 to 1983, Sheridan reportedly gave the formula away free of charge to over 1,000 people. In any case, the only evidence out there that I could find that Sheridan ever tried to do clinical trials is the existence of an application for investigational new drug (IND) status for CanCell (IND #20258) from 1982, which was not granted because the FDA asked for more information but didn’t get it. Specifically, the FDA asked for the chemical formulation (which is proprietary and has not been revealed by Sheridan or any others making the compound) and animal studies demonstrating activity against cancer, which are pretty basic bits of information required for all INDs.

Then, in 1984, a man named Edward J. Sopcak acquired the formula for Entelev. How this came about is somewhat unclear, but we do know that in 1984 the FDA issued an order to cease and desist distributing Entelev to patients. Whether that happened before or after Sopcak acquired the formula is unclear. The company claims it was before, because Sheridan realized the jig was up and that the FDA was going to shut him down; so he wanted to get the formula out to others. (Obviously, that’s not how they put it.) Particularly revealing, albeit no doubt unintentionally so, is this tidbid on the Medical Research Products website describing Sheridan, in which he is described thusly, “Jim also had no tolerance for complying with rigid manufacturing procedures that the FDA demanded.” No doubt, given that at that time he was manufacturing his product in his house, as documented in a famous Detroit Monthly article in 1984, Hope on a Hot Plate (the title was based on the way Sheridan cooked up Entelev on a hot plate in his pantry), and in another incident was observed to be carrying out pH testing in his kitchen while his wife was cooking chicken for dinner.

In any case, Sheridan apparently teamed up with a history teacher from Plymouth, MI named Don Wilson who became a “missionary” for Sheridan; Orville “Orz” Feather, a chemical engineer; and, of course, Ed Sopcak. Thus was CanCell born; it was basically Entelev renamed. By 1989, the FDA asked for and received a permanent injunction against Sheridan and Sopcak prohibiting them from introducing their compound into interstate commerce on the basis that they were adulterated, misbranded, and unapproved new drugs. For several years, this seems not to have stopped Sopcak, who superseded Sheridan as the primary promoter of CanCell, from distributing it under the names Protocel and Entelev. Ultimately, in the 1990s, Sopcak and Sheridan complied, but that didn’t stop other companies from making the same or similar products.

Cantron: False hope

So what are Cantron, Entelev, Protocel, and the plethora of products based on Jim Sheridan’s original “juice”? Finding that out isn’t exactly easy because the formula has been proprietary. Moreover, the purported explanations of how it supposedly works are, to put it kindly, a moving target. However, there are several explanations in common that resemble to some extent the paragraph I cited above. For instance, the Alternative Cancer Treatments Comparison and Testing website, which has a wonderfully catty criticism of Protocel relative to Cantron, which is, according to the website, so much better than Protocel, even though the unwashed masses buy more Protocel because they “mistakenly believe that the Protocel formula is controlled by the developer or his surviving family”:

Both Cantron and Protocel work by reducing the ATP energy (adenosine triphosphate) in each cell of your body. (This is also one of the cancer fighting effects of Paw Paw and Graviola.) Our cells have an electrical potential that effects how the cell processes energy producing substances mostly blood sugar and oxygen from our blood supply…

By reducing this voltage level from 70 to 110 mv to something in the 50 mv region, normal cells can still function. However, cancer and viral cells cannot process energy at this low voltage level and start to starve. The process of starving is a slower process than being poisoned which is why Cancell works slower than chemo and why there was a dramatic reduction in the weight of tumor cells in the two day NCI test of Cancell, but only a small number of dead cells. Had that test run longer, all the tumor cells that showed such dramatic weight reduction would have starved to death. For more on the NCI test, go to the Comments on the NCI Test Summary for Cancell page.

It is always amusing to see such gross ignorance of basic biology, or, as I like to call it, burning stupid. Viruses are not cells. You can’t starve them. They also apparently don’t know that the membrane potential of cells is generally expressed as a negative voltage. I do, however, like the special pleading that the NCI test didn’t measure the right thing, as if the NCI doesn’t know what to measure when testing putative new cancer therapies in vitro and in vivo. Similarly, the part about reducing the resting electrochemical gradient across the cell membrane to the -50 mV range is pure nonsense. The main reason the voltage potential across a cell membrane decreases is either because the cell lacks ATP (which is the source of chemical energy for most cellular reactions, such as the ion pumps that maintain the gradient); something else (a poison, for instance) is inhibiting the ion pumps; or the membrane is leaky, dispersing the ion gradient. In any case, cells have a wide variety of resting potentials, and, in fact, promoters of Cantron get it exactly wrong. In actuality, resting potential corresponds with proliferative potential. Cells with a low proliferative potential tend to have high resting membrane potentials (say, -90 mV), while cells more able to proliferate have a lower resting potential. That includes cancer cells. Of course, it’s more complicated than that in that tumor cells tend to undergo a hyperpolarized phase (higher voltage) while replicating, but the makers of Cantron get the biology all wrong. More differentiated cells tend to have higher resting membrane potential, and lower resting membrane potential tends to be associated with dediffrentiation.

Another claim by Cantron promoters for how it works is Sheridan’s original rationale. In his IND application, he stated that cancer is a protein disease and that there are three kinds of cells: normal, primitive, and cancerous. In a “cancer relationship,” Sheridan argues, cellular proteins become less differentiated than usual and can only replicate cancer proteins. Of course, one notes that in general proteins do not replicate; they are made by transcription and translation of the cell’s DNA, but that didn’t stop Sheridan from claiming that Entelev allowed cancer cells to attain the “primitive state,” which would lead them to self-destruct. This is such utter nonsense from a biological standpoint that it defies reason that a biochemist could believe it, but apparently Sheridan did.

Sopcak’s explanation, on the other hand, was slightly different in that he claimed that cancer cells are mutated anaerobic cells caused by lack of proper diet that causes chemical and electrical damage. His idea of cancer causation is that Progenitor cryptocides becomes active and helps healthy cells respire anaerobically. According to Sopcak, when the cell’s energy needs outstrip the ability of anaerobic metabolism to supply them, the cell mutates and becomes a cancer cell in an irreversible process. One must admit that this sounds a heck of a lot more plausible than Sheridan’s explanation, with its clever co-optation of the Warburg effect and hypotheses that have been around a while about how metabolism can contribute to cancer development. So how does Entelev reverse this process? Here’s where Sopcak goes off the deep end. He claimed that Entelev changed the “vibrational energy and frequency” of cancer cells until they reach the “primitive state” postulated by Sheridan. The cells then autodigest, to be eliminated through the urine, feces, being coughed up, through perspiration, or even through a vaginal discharge. After this happens, cancer cells are replaced by normal cells.

Amusingly, Sopcak has also been quoted as saying that he believes all medicine in the future will ultimately be practiced by adjusting vibrational frequencies. Perhaps that’s why it didn’t take him too long to get into homeopathy. He even made a homeopathic version of CanCell and called it—I kid you not—CanCell, thus causing no end of confusion, particularly because the clear homeopathic version looked very different from the dark-colored original version. In any case, Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.

And ya might not believe this, little fella, but it’ll cure your asthma, too. I do note, however, that Cantron, or whatever one wants to call it, has been administered orally, rectally, and topically. If you want the nitty gritty of his pseudoscience, he expounds upon his beliefs and claims for Cantron in detail in this interview from 1996. In this interview, he admits that CanCell is nothing but “very pure water” and claims that it’s a “programmed crystal.” Even more amusingly, from a standpoint of homeopathy, he claims that he removes the memory from these water crystals and imprints the memory he wants. Elsewhere, he describes CanCell as a “vibrational catalyst”:

ACRES U.S.A.: Allow us to back up a bit. What is the substance called Cancell? What is the theory behind it? How does it work? How do you make it?

SOPCAK: The new Cancell analyzes as very pure water. That’s what it is.

ACRES U.S.A.: Just very pure water?

SOPCAK: That’s right. It is a programmed crystal. Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes. I have simply erased the memory of the water. People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time. Before you impress a memory on a crystal, you have to take out the memory that is there. I remove the memory.

ACRES U.S.A.: How do you remove the memory? Is this a case of magnetism?

SOPCAK: No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.

So let me get this straight. If Cantron is the same as CanCell, it’s basically water. However, in the photos on the Medical Research Products website Cantron looks like the dark liquid that Jim Sheridan used to sell as Entelev after cooking it up in on a hot plate in his kitchen and pantry. None of this stops him from going wild with the woo:

Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.

Vibrations. Why does it always have to be vibrations? Every quack, cancer or otherwise, seems to think that vibrations are the be-all and end-all of everything; that is, when they don’t think that evil humors—excuse me, energy blockages—are the cause of all disease.

So what’s in Entelev/CanCell/Cantron? Not a lot, actually. In 1989, an FDA review found that it is made up of fairly unremarkable chemicals, including nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, inositol, and catechol. The Cantron website says that it contains copper, sodium, sulfur, postassium, as well as traces of iron, zinc, and bromine. None of what’s in Cantron appears to have any anticancer activity at the levels one might expect in the human body, per the NCI:

In 1990 and 1991, samples of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel were evaluated in NCI’s in vitro 60 Human Tumor Cell Line Screen. The test results are available online. The graphs and the numerical designations for each of the three cancer cell growth criteria (GI50, concentration required for 50% inhibition of cell growth; TGI, concentration required for total inhibition of cell growth; and LC50, concentration required for 50% cell lethality or death) are somewhat complicated, but a technical explanation is provided in the Appendix 3. There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.

A dietary supplement?

So how do the manufacturers of Cantron and its many imitators get away with it? How is it that they keep selling it? The answer is easy: Blame the DSHEA of 1994. Cantron, according to Medical Research Products, is a dietary supplement, as explained in these bullet points:

  • Cantron is offered only as a dietary supplement.
  • Medical Research Products makes no claims nor prescribes this product (or any other product) for the cure, prevention or mitigation of any chronic disease.
  • Cantron is not approved by the FDA or endorsed by the AMA for the treatment of any medical condition.
  • The FDA has not evaluated any statements of “health claims” made by MRP.
  • DO NOT IGNORE THE ADVICE OF YOUR PHYSICIAN. Do not use Cantron in lieu of any life saving treatments which have been prescribed by your physician.
  • Cantron is one very important part of a Total Wellness Program where one treats the whole nature of the individual through nutritional supplementation, diet, exercise, meditation, prayer, etc..
  • Cantron may be taken by itself, however, it is the primary product in our ‘Total Wellness Program’, which is a portfolio of synergistic products designed to stimulate the body’s own natural healing processes.

This brings us back to Bernie Mulligan. How on earth is it that Bernie Mulligan can be deceived to believe that Cantron will cure his stage IV esophageal cancer, with his liver packed with metastatic tumor? Certainly Medical Research Products isn’t telling him that. To the company, it’s all just a “supplement” that “promotes wellness naturally.” Jerome Godin even emphasizes that in the article, stating in no uncertain terms that he is very careful to obey the law. He does, however, disingenuously add, “I just make my product and those who believe in it usually promote it on their own.”

People like Andy Johnson:

On April 18, Johnson did what he does on the third Wednesday of every month at noon — went to a hall in Warren, unloaded cardboard boxes full of photocopied pamphlets, books and bottles of Cantron, approached the podium and preached the good news.

And preached. And preached. Johnson, an 82-year-old man with wire-rimmed glasses, a neatly trimmed moustache and a tucked-in yellow golf shirt, spoke for an hour. He paused for half an hour to allow people who believe Cantron cured their cancer to tell their stories before launching back into his speech for another 40 minutes.

And:

Johnson made all the claims the company that produces Cantron can’t, and then some. Cantron cures cancer, he said — along with AIDS, knee problems and the common cold. He jumped up and down to illustrate the part about the knee problems.

So what we have in Andy Johnson is a true believer, and, unfortunately, he has a group, the H.O.P.E. Group, to which he can preach his belief every third Wednesday of the month, promoting misinformation such as this, where he recommends that cancer patients use Cantron with a variety of other supplements, including shark liver oil, Enzyme Formula Tablets, Willard’s Water, and Pancreatin. Even worse, Johnson apparently encourages his group members to avoid science-based treatments. Interestingly, though, Johnson’s online footprint is actually quite small, as though he’s flying under the radar. His group doesn’t appear to have its own website, and it’s hard to find out much about him online.

Be that as it may, what we have here is, in my professional opinion, a cancer quack. That he believes in his quackery makes it even worse, because it probably makes him a more effective salesman. Meanwhile, we have a company doing the old “wink, wink, nudge, nudge,” while Johnson says the things that the law prohibits the company from saying about its product. A nice arrangement, isn’t it? The treatment isn’t cheap, either, its manufacturer’s claims of wanting to make it available to everyone notwithstanding. According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.

Unfortunately, the article, after having revealed this quackery, dilutes its message by in essence adding some apologia for “complementary and alternative” medicine. For instance, the author Claire Brownell writes that it’s difficult for patients to separate science from fiction and hearsay (true) but that the also “won’t necessarily get much help from their doctors, who are usually poorly trained about alternative treatments and often dismissive of the entire concept.” She also notes that the case of Cantron “doesn’t mean all alternative treatments are a scam or useless” and then cites a completely inappropriate example to illustrate her point. That example is an application for clinical trials of a dandelion root extract that apparently showed some activity against leukemia in preclinical models. Again, people, that is not in any way “alternative” or “complementary.” It’s pharmacognosy (i.e., natural products pharmacology), which is an old and productive branch of pharmacology. To equate pharmacognosy to pure quackery like Cantron is an insult to cancer pharmacologists everywhere.

I don’t know whether Mulligan is still alive. The last report I could find about him is dated May 27 and is about his attending the Telus Motorcycle Ride for Dad. The saddest part, however, is that, even after Cantron has clearly failed him to the point where even with his aversion to conventional medicine in general and chemotherapy in particular he agreed to take chemotherapy, Bernie Mulligan still believes. It’s a truly horrible thing for a man in his 40s to see the specter of his end approaching 30 or 40 years too early, to contemplate not living to see his daughters grow up, or to have the joy of seeing grandchildren. It’s entirely understandable that, lacking the scientific background to realize that there is no scientifically plausible reason to think that Cantron will work and no scientific evidence supporting its efficacy against any cancer, a man like Mulligan might grasp at anything that he thinks can save him and participate in fundraisers to raise money for an “experimental” cancer treatment. It’s companies like Medical Research Products, whose owners give no indication of being the least bit troubled by the claims being made for its products by people like Andy Johnson, that are to blame.

Comments

  1. #1 johnV
    June 19, 2012

    “People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time.”

    Just wow.

  2. #2 palindrom
    June 19, 2012

    JohnV — I think you mean “Just woo.”

    Orac, I’ve been among those having issues with comments being refused because I’m “commenting too fast”, despite having not said anything for several days. Although I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords, they might want to look into this.

  3. #3 Andreas Johansson
    June 19, 2012

    Jim’s Juice … CanCell

    Are we entirely sure this isn’t all an elaborate parody?

  4. #4 Marry Me, Mindy
    June 19, 2012

    “Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes.”

    Wow.

    Hint: liquid water does not freeze to give snowflakes

  5. #5 Eric Lund
    June 19, 2012

    That paragraph on vibrations is some of the finest word salad I have encountered in some time. The individual words all mean things, and many of the two- and even three-word combinations are sensible, but none of the full sentences actually means anything.

    I know that Medial Research Products has covered their posterior here, but does the law against making medical claims not apply to people like Andy Johnson?

  6. #6 Mu
    June 19, 2012

    They should make that an exercise in every MBA program. You have $1,000 to buy little bottles, food dye and some labels; make $1,000,000.
    Or maybe that’s what we’re looking at here?

  7. #7 Mu
    June 19, 2012

    Eric, it applies to him, but as a single reseller he’s too small for the FDA to go after him; so maybe someone could get him for practicing medicine without a license. But it sounds like he’s giving his whole spiel a religious undertone, and all bets are off with that. And only if he’s got a connection to the manufactures (like getting wholesale deals directly) someone could get after the true culprits.

  8. #8 Heliantus
    June 19, 2012

    @ Eric Lund

    The individual words all mean things, and many of the two- and even three-word combinations are sensible, but none of the full sentences actually means anything.

    I couldn’t have put it better. One doesn’t know where to start the refutation.
    Oh, let’s try this:

    That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable

    Water suffers from Alzheimer’s?

    (with apologies to people suffering from Alzheimer’s and their kin)

  9. #9 Strewth
    Canada
    June 19, 2012

    Water is a crystalline substance?

    I do not think that word means what you think it means.

  10. #10 adelady
    city of wine and roses
    June 19, 2012

    “That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me.”

    And that’s the reason why we must keep as much woo-lly thinking and quackery out of the acceptable public space as is humanly possible.

    This man is just like millions of others who lack the training or other skill sets to make valid judgements about healthcare – procedures, products, protocols, personnel – let alone prognoses. Leading to very bad decisions with horrible consequences. This man is so young. A few weeks more with a more reasonable quality of life could have been immensely valuable if he’d followed science based advice from the onset. There really are times when every day counts.

    And many of those equally deceived others are probably equally impressed with all that sciencey talk about vibrations, structures, energy, quantum and all the other fashionable trigger words.

    So sad.

  11. #11 Denice Walter
    June 19, 2012

    OT ( but when is free-flowing woo un-restricted by higher mental processes ever TRULY OT @ RI?)

    Today, Safe Minds’ Katie Weisman ( also @ AoA) announces that studies show that The DSM-5 will reduce the number of ASD diagnoses significantly- therefore ACTION must be taken immediately! Amongst these is an on-line developmental study currently in the works.

    I believe that I am observing the germination and early embryonic development of a new conspiracy theory: the new *reduced* numbers that will be diagnosed are evidence of tampering by the powers-that-be; the DSM-5 is merely a cover-up for the ever-increasing and un-ruly growth of the REAL epidemic.

  12. #12 Renate
    June 19, 2012

    So I suppose all snow-crystals made from a bottle of homeopathic “medicine” are exactly the same, considering they all are supposed to have the same memory. Otherwise it wouldn’t work. At least they claim it works, because the water rememers the stuff that has been in it before they started diluting and shaking the stuff.

  13. #13 thenewme
    June 19, 2012

    @Adelady
    It is sad. Very sad indeed. I was a “regular” at breastcancer.org’s support forum for breast cancer patients like me, but I’ve all but given up and thrown in the towel there after being driven away by a group of very vocal and very anti-science posters. I have such mixed feelings about this Protocel post because there’s currently a Stage IV breast cancer patient there sharing her “protocel 23″ progress, measured by using a ruler and a protractor, and “evidenced” by eye discharge, nasal drainage, etc. I’m happy to see this science-based discussion of this quackery, but at the same time it breaks my heart to see her believing in the scam instead of seeking “real” treatment.

  14. #14 Roger Kulp
    June 19, 2012

    Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.

    Geez,no mention of autism,yet? And with that pretty little spectrum label,too.

    Mulligan sounds just like a “warrior mom”.Anything that mentions cure,is something you should run from as fast as possible.

    Thanks for a very informative,and educational post.How DO you ever get the time to do surgery,and stuff.

    Denice,for once ASAN,Safe Minds,and AoA are on the same page.ASAN has been screaming about the DSM,and issuing talking points for quite some time,that it would decrease the number of “autistics” diagnosed.Both groups hate that new social disorder designation that the DSM-V will create.

    ASAN wants people diagnosed with autism who don’t meet the full criteria.

    I don’t really find much I agree with either group on.

    I only recently realized that most of the numbers fueling this “epidemic”,and subsequent biomed/woo movement were at the mild end of the spectrum.I sometimes wonder what parents are making all the fuss about.

    I never said this on one of these blogs before,but I am one of those old timers,who was diagnosed as having “childhood schizophrenia” in the early 70s,when I was in elementary school.It was either go into an institution,or get doped up on antipsychotics.

    When I was reevaluted as an adult,after the DSM-IV,they did not know where to put me.I was much worse than Asperger’s,but not as bad as classic autism.This in addition to all the metabolic-autoimmune stuff.

  15. #15 Melissa G
    June 19, 2012

    “Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”

    Sounds startlingly similar to Terry Bohner from “A Mighty Wind” describing WINC (Witches In Nature’s Colors), “This is not an occult science, this is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff’s hooey and you’d have to have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand– humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store.”

    Only, y’know, Mighty Wind is brilliant satire, and CancerWoo is dangerous bullshit.

  16. #16 Roger Kulp
    Telling Queenie to go get food.
    June 19, 2012

    AVOID ALL REFINED SUGAR!
    Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup, etc. It FEEDS cancer (like putting gasoline on a fire) and raises energy levels,defeating Cantron. Natural sugar in limited quantity is acceptable.Being positive and believing in what you are doing will help get you well and is the most important component to increase your chances to getting
    well.

    Amazing this is the same kind of woo,we have heard for years from the antivaccine crowd,about autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.

    Those bullet points are just a variant of the quack miranda warning.

    Jim’s juice,Willard’s water at least these people have a sense of humor.Disturbing images of Bruce Davison notwithstanding.

  17. #17 sophia8
    Hiding away from all these crazies....
    June 19, 2012

    “According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.”
    But we have to cover our expenses! All those bottles, all that distilled water, all those coloured labels, they don’t come cheap y’know! Plus, I have decades of expertise in woo – that’s worth paying for as well. We’re barely breaking even and only doing this out of the goodness of our hearts. Not like Big Pharma, who are gouging money out of desperate, sick people, just to poison them!

  18. #18 sophia8
    Still hiding...
    June 19, 2012

    And now the ad at the top of this blog is for “J. Humble approved MMS Miracle”….

  19. #19 Black-cat
    June 19, 2012

    @thenewme:

    I know who you are talking about and it really pisses me off how that certain group of anti-science, anti-intellectual alties are cheering her on.
    I have had enough of the idiots cheering on Chilli and let them have it. As a result the moderators have banned me from the boards.

    Chilli is a woman that was stage one, hormone postivie, HER2-, breast cancer. Instead of treatment she embarked on a host of alternative therapies. She started a blog and became an MLMer. Her goal was to help and council people cure themselves from cancer with alternatives, while she made a living at it at the same time. Her slow growing indolent tumor grew very slowly over the next 7 years and she felt healthy. Year 7 it broke through her chest and spread like wildfire. The pain and the terrible stench brought her back to conventional medicine. For the past 3 years, she has had chemotherapy to try to shrink the tumor so she could have a mastectomy. She has not reported any other distant metastases besides the widespread skin mets. Chemo failed at clearing up the skin mets. She reports that the first two chemos work and by the 3rd chemo, her skin mets start growing again. She has numerous small tumors that have broken through the skin and some rather large ones. The most remarkable is a 23 cm fungating tumor on her breast that has spread halfway down her abdomen and to her back. The pain is excruciating esp. when she showers or tries to dress. The pain and the stench are so bad that she can no longer leave her house. She is on heavy duty painkillers.

    Last month her oncologist decided to start her on the chemo drug Adriamycin and she reports that it was stopped after the 3rd treatment because it wasn’t working and her oncologist “gave her the talk”.

    She posted a link to a site that sold black salve from Indonesia. There were very graphic picures of a fungating breast tumor which Chilli reported as looking exactly like hers. I told her this was a scam on the message board and pm’d her why. The alties called me stupid, ignorant and mean spirited on the boards and in personal messages.

    Nevertheless, Chilli tried black salve on her smail tumors and also bought something that she’s taking in capsule form, which she claims is black salve. She claims she has tried black salve on her smaller tumors and the pain is excruciating but she has drawn out the tumors “including the roots” She explains that her salves are working differently as one is pushing out the tumor and the other is pulling out the tumor.

    The alties cheer her own and tell her she is making a medical breakthrough. They tell her to document everything and save her tumors to be studied by researchers. None of them even have the basics down of biology, physiology or what cancer is or how it works.

    I submitted a post on the alties lack of understanding and tell Chilli again that this is a scam and the only thing that black salve is doing is burning a big hole through her tissue. Of course this started an altie shitstorm and there were cries to ban me. Nothing new as the alties have been trying to get me banned for the last year. I get a notice that I have been banned but only until the 25th of June for violating forum rules. Alties are then free to post comments like, “so what if black salve might cause infection and bleeding. Any women getting a mastectomy has the same risks and no surgeon will operate so it makes sense for her to burn her breast off with black salve. What does she have to lose?”

    Thenewme, I don’t think that I am going back to BCO, either. I have had quite enough. The mods quickly put up a quack miranda warning after my post. That site is owned by 2 physicians and supported by donations. It brings in millions of dollars every year and both physicians take salaries in the neighborhood of $200,000 a year. I would love to see them both cough up a mere $15,000 a piece and hire a physician, nurse practioner, or physician’s assitant part time to debunk the psuedoscience on the altie boards. But I am sure that would be asking too much. Whenever I complained about this to the moderators, who also have no background in science or medicine, I was told BCO supported that everyone has consent to make their own choices. What they don’t seem to understand is that the alties on that forum do not have informed consent. There are so many of them that have progressed to stage four because of all the support that they have gotten on the altie boards. I would love to see those boards taken down but it aint gonna happen.

  20. #20 Dangerous Bacon
    June 19, 2012

    As a counter to the woo contingent’s labeling of mainstream cancer treatment as “cut, poison and burn”, maybe we should refer to altie cancer care as “enemas, vibrations and metastasis”.

  21. #21 Black-cat
    June 19, 2012

    @Dangerous Bacon

    But the alties have to omit burn out of “cut, poison and burn”, because that is what black salve does.
    Oh wait, the mechanism of action is” pushing and pulling out tumors” and not burning.. Any hard core alite will tell you so and they certainly have.schooled me.. Black salve also has the ability to differentiate between cancerous tumors and normai tissues. My bad.

  22. #22 Brian Morgan
    UK
    June 19, 2012

    This page is carrying an advert for MMS Miracle 4oz for $8 in the header section. It says it’s J. Humble approved.

  23. #23 Brian Morgan
    UK
    June 19, 2012

    Not the first see this – apology.

  24. #24 Roadstergal
    June 19, 2012

    @Black-cat : Having never heard of ‘Black Salve,’ I looked it up on Bing.

    1: QuackWatch was the sixth hit – unfortunately, under the Shopping link.

    2: Holy jumping $hitballs, people _do_ that?

  25. #25 thenewme
    June 19, 2012

    Hey, Black-Cat! Good to see you here! Stinks that you were banned from BCO! I’ve been banned so many times for daring to mention any evidence-based information that contradicts their quackery. It’s so sad and very disturbing that real cancer patients are looking to that site for treatment information and the site apparently isn’t interested in maintaining any sort of evidence-based standards.

    @Roadstergal, yep! Not only do people do that, other “breast cancer patients” cheer them along, praising them for being so brave and heroic. People who post *real* information are quickly driven away/banned/etc. Ugh.

  26. #26 Black-cat
    June 19, 2012

    @Roadstergal. My message to you got lost in cyperspace. It may be because I posted inks. As thenewme stated, people do this. I have found black salve testimonials all over the net.

    You can see the black salve site and Chilli’s post on BCO if you go to breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “topic:scary bc removal photos”

    @thenewme-another good person was also driven away. You know the one.. She has a degree in microbiology at the graduate level and had a lifelong career as a microbiologist in research. Two of her children are also physicians She has been told that she is extremely ignorant by an extremely ignorant alte. Another alitie has told her that she doesent know how to read and interpret the studies she posts and suggsted that she should get educated before she posts anything.on the altie fourm again.

  27. #27 Ultra Venia
    June 19, 2012

    It’s amazing, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a snake oil that -didn’t- claim to cure chronic fatigue and Lyme disease.

  28. #28 rose
    stuck in the middle with you
    June 19, 2012

    My daughter used to post at an altie parenting site. She started when she was breastfeeding her first child. Now she says there are new rules. You will be banned if you talk about weaning, circumcision, or vaccinating your child. I have also posted at BreastCancer.org and it has become apparent that the regulars on the altie threads there want that type of control over what is posted about breast cancer treatment.
    When people don’t have facts on their side they turn to bullying. It is a shame. But at least we can come here for a dose of sanity.

  29. #29 Denice Walter
    June 19, 2012

    @ Roger Kulp:

    Yes, according to studies @ Yale ( reviewed by Jon Brock) the diagnoses of Asperger’s will be most reduced.

    I think I’m slightly older than you are. Despite my education in psych, autism was considered a relatively rare syndrome- whereas MR and various ‘neuroses” and ‘psychoses” were more often the topics of discussion. Altho’ we were starting to regard *social* cognition in child/ adolescent development.

    Personally, throughout my peripatetic degree quest: *wherever* I was or *whatever* I was studying, I believe I knew quite a few gentlemen who would have been diagnosed as having Asperger’s if they had been born later. I think that Simon Baron-Cohen may be on to something with his ideas of certain career choices- engineers, scientists,- the organisers. Doesn’t the UK study of older autists show a figure of around 1% despite age? I would expect that.

  30. #30 Denice Walter
    June 19, 2012

    RE: black salves

    The entire sordid, despicable tale of Greg Caton and *Cansema* is recounted at Wikipedia and other places.

    Bizarrely enough, when he was caught, chief amongst his *defenders* was MIke Adams, the Health Ranger ( see stories at Natural News via search function)
    Health freedom,, right. Freedom to harm.

  31. #31 Black-cat
    June 19, 2012

    @Denice Walter I have sent the woman using black salve the link to quackwatch. I read the wikipedia article but failed to send her that one. I don’t think it would have mattered if I did. The alties on BCO claim that quackwatch is a hate site and that wikipedia does not support alternative medicine.

    The person who has the indonesia black salve site calls himself Wayan. He has personally called her and sends her frequent emails. She’s eccstatic that someone so important cares about her and can make her look normal again. She has stopped seeing her oncologist and is resorting to emails.

    It just figures that Mike Adams is a black salve supporter. The alties rant and rave about their health ranger hero.

  32. #32 Black-cat
    June 19, 2012

    whoops, I got canton and black salve mixed up. I can’t keep track of all these miracle cures.

  33. #33 Denice Walter
    June 19, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    About quackwatch:
    one of the woo-meisters I survey tells the faithful that Dr Barrett is chief amongst alt med’s enemies ( Orac has been mentioned as well) . Oddly, he nevers mentions the site’s real name – he calls Dr Barrett and other sceptics, “quackbusters”- I believe it’s because that name leads to Bolen’s anti-SBM site, not Barrett’s – lord forbid his audience read that!

    Supposedly, Barrett, wikipedia and other sceptics will meet their eventual comeuppance in court where brave health freedom fighters fight most of their scientific battles.-btw- The idiot’s 100million USD suit against wikipedia has already been dismissed. ( courtesy of quackwatch)

  34. #34 GRichard
    June 19, 2012

    SOPCAK: “No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.

    Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”

    It’s been awhile since my psych rotation, but that sounds awfully similar to the things I’d hear from the inpatient schizophrenics…

  35. #35 rose
    stuck in the middle with you
    June 19, 2012

    The quacks who sell Protocel and related compounds have quite a scam going. Patients are told that its effects wax and wane so if there is evidence of the tumor getting larger they should just continue on with the therapy. wasting valuable time they could have been using on cancer therapy that works.

  36. #36 Denice Walter
    June 19, 2012

    @ GRichard:

    Altho’ it does indeed sound like in-patient schizophrenics, it *also* sounds a great deal like Royal Rife AND Gary Null.

  37. #37 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    @Denise Walter
    The alties on BCO love TIm Bolen. He is their mentor and savior. They post all his latest updates on Dr Barret and of course the vulgar rants on Orac. They have posted that Dr Barret is delicensed and works as an estesian in a nail salon in a strip mall. They know this because Timmy told them so.

    I posted parts of Timmy’s depostion in the aetna lawsuit against the maker of that bogus dental advice. You know the ones where he forgot where he lived and did not remember how many years he went to school.
    Really pissed off the alties.

    http://timbolen.blogspot.com/2012/04/patrick-timothy-bolen-liar-and-loser.html

  38. #38 Black-cat
    June 20, 2012

    @Denise Walters:
    Here are some of the greatest hits of the BCO alties concerning Quackwatch and Orac:

    What’s more, you don’t have to be a descendent of Einstein to know that Orac, Quackwatch and all their so-called reliable sources have no real place on an alternative medicine forum. It’s just spam

    BEWARE of Quackwatch–biased “research” from Wikipediia
    “Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch” by Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D. (Professor Emeritus of the Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry at University of the Sciences

    I get really cranky when people invite themselves to the Alt forums with their quackpot propaganda and leave trails of insults. I’ve seen minimum half a dozen links to the quackwatch and Orac’s sites in the past 24 hours. There are way too many squatters of that sort here and BCO should address this major problem before things get really out of hand

    Quackbusters: “Bullys” Barrett, Baratz, Sued For 1.3 Million in Canada

    According to court documents recently filed in Canada, Barrett and Baratz’s “bullying” was listed in 86 separate “claims,” with 176 separate “allegations,” 463 requests to admit, backed by a demand for authenticity of 47 documents
    Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases

    Now, that sounds pretty hostile to me, and your casewatch and quackwatch sources laughable

    Could not find much on Tim Bolen except for his website (very interesting reading) but did find a whole lot of very confused ramblings from the quackwatchers/skeptics’ guru. Oh Boy !! he thinks he’s a prophet, scarrrrry

    While quackwatch is busy trying to shoot down those who promote alternative cures and use of supplementation, a nasty drug like Cipro slips through the cracks and causes permanent injury

    Glad most of you enjoyed the article about the quack who runs quackwatch.

    have been keeping abreast of what is happening with a group called, quackwatch, often cited around here, as a source for “exposing” holistic health businesses. Here is the latest on a lawsuit that hopefully will exonerate those who the quacks at quackwatch are trying to push out of business:

    Could the Doctor’s Data “Protective Order” Actually Shut Down Barrett,
    Quackwatch, and the Skeptics?

    Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

    Vivre, this is excellent news. That QW site is just a hate site with no review system or any way to remove inaccurate or biased information. Thanks for posting the other site.

    The newspaper described Barrett who runs the quackwatch site as a de-licensed doctor who runs a hair removal parlor in a strip mall. You can’t make this stuff up.

    I tried to read a Hulda Clark book once but it was really technical and way over my head. If her methods work, then the parasite theory is a moot point. After all, pain killing tablets still work regardless of whether we understand what exactly caused the pain.

    I like to look for similarities in cancer treatments that have had some success. Intestinal cleanses, fasts, juicing, low energy diets, these seem to be common to many versions of treatments though it’s hard to know how successful each treatment was without proper studies.

  39. #39 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    I posted this about Bolen and it worked. The alties have stopped quoting him.

    You probably did not know that Tim Bolen is indigent and collecting welfare. Yep, our tax dollars are paying for the trash that Tim Bolen is spewing. He is vulgar, highly dishonest, has no intregrity or class and seems to attract the same kind of people. Like attracts like. I understand that he is Vivre’s mentor and hero, also. He has such a potty mouth that I like to refer to him as Timmy Toilet Mouth or simply timmytoilet. His real name is Patrick and he has a cousin named TIm that wants him to stop using the name as he does not want to be mistaken for this moron.

    Here is is trying to remember where he lives which is hilarious. Timmie summers in a post office box and winters in a shack in the Cleveland National Forest. He has no electricity and uses a squat toilet. What kind of person lives in a shack in a national forest? Can you say unibomber. I knew you could.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmEIF7...

  40. #40 Spectator
    NYC
    June 20, 2012

    I hope not to sound crank-ish, but …

    is it really productive to attempt to bring science to places whose purpose is provide a congregation for arrogant, spiteful anti-science con artists? These people look less like innocent victims and more like a mob.

    It might be better to encourage them to document their progress, including “temporary” setbacks (all the more evidence that faith healing overcomes!) and scrupulously avoid pharma/radiation/hospitals and rigid conventional logic. Encourage photos, measurements and exams by conventional MDs but no nasty conventional medicine. One needs to have some 3rd party records.

    If an altie expires they’re just returning to the crystal energy sphere or whatever… how can they have a problem with that?

  41. #41 Kelly M Bray
    Diogenes walked into a bar with Mike Adams and Dr. Mercola. He turned and said "What the hell am I doing with you two clowns".
    June 20, 2012

    Should Orac post some insolence about BCO? Does he know the owners?

  42. #42 Chris
    In a nostalgic mood...
    June 20, 2012

    Black-cat, your experience with the breast cancer support forum seem eerily familiar. I had very similar things happen when I was on the Apraxia-Kids listserv. One person tried to get me booted off just because I mentioned that the MMR vaccine did not contain thimerosal, and I received lots of nasty grams when I wrote a comment saying chelation was a bad idea. So I left. And then Roy Kerry killed a kid just because he was autistic by forced chelation a month or so later.

    Ah, yes! I remember Tim Bolen from those days. I had joined the Healthfraud listserv and posted some comments. Bolen had also signed up for it and was reading our emails, plus gathering them up to spam us. When I changed service providers I did not sign up again (except much later, but I only lurk). More on Tim Bolen:
    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/timoranter.htm

  43. #43 Black-cat
    June 20, 2012

    @Kelly M Bray

    The site is owned by Marsha Weis M.D. and Hope Wahl.
    Here is their 2008 non profit tax exemption form:

    http://www.breastcancer.org/Images/2009%20Form%20990-PF_tcm8-334666.pdf

    In 2007, BCO pulled in 4.5 million with 1.4 million going to salaries. In 2008 BCO pulled in 2.5 million with 1.6 million going to salaries. They made a llittle more than half the money of the previous year but salaries were increased.

    Marsha Weiss was compensated $240,901 and reported a 40 hour workweek.

    Hope Wohl drew a salary of 196,119 and also reported a 40 hour workweek. 3 others have salaries of 100,000 including the director of marketing.
    I don’t know what they are doing with their 40 hour work weeks as they sure haven’t showed up in the altie forums.

  44. #44 Kelly M Bray
    Diogenes walked into a bar with Mike Adams and Dr. Mercola. He turned and said "What the hell am I doing with you two clowns".
    June 20, 2012

    A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..

  45. #45 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    @Chris

    Oh God, we have the anti vaccers on BCO too. I think a good little militant altie has to be an anti vaccer to fit in and be excepted by the woo community.

    I love ratbags and Peter Bowditch. That picture of him sitting outside Timmy’s post office box residence is priceless.
    The video of Timmy in the deposition trying to remember his education is priceless. He spent 16 years in community college and could not remember his major and never graduated.

    I read the whole deposition. I forget where I found it. It was scary and hilarious. I wish whoever has it would post it on the internet. I would love to see the video.

    The scariest part was that Timmy admitted under oath that he has no employment, no income, is on county welfare for his wife’s medical bills and that he traveled across county (from southern california to the one of the southern states where Dr Barret lives) He stood outside Dr. Barret’s house and took pictures and posted them on the internet.

    Timmy also admitted under oath that he owns guns, lots of guns and can’t remember the exact number or if his guns are registered with the state of california.

  46. #46 Chris
    Time to go to bed, so good night...
    June 20, 2012

    I found Ratbags and Peter Bowditch through Quackwatch. His site was the link to find the untrustworthy website (the 1000 links Bowditch did not like). From there I signed on to the Healthfraud listserv, and decided to spend more time on Usenet.

    And on Usenet I was introduced to Orac. So here I am. I started commenting on his blogspot page when it started with my old poisonous ‘nym. The one in which Scudamore created a whale.to page for (something that makes me proud).

  47. #47 Black-cat
    June 20, 2012

    @Kelly M Bray

    Re: A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..

    The altie forums generate more traffic than any of the others esp. if there is an argument going on. If it gets too vicious, the moderators pull the thread from the active threads so nobody seesit and starts deleting posts. I had many non threatening rational posts deleted and asked why. The moderators told me that the thread was getting contentious and even though I did not violate forum rules, my post was upsetting the alties. They felt it better to pull it to keep the peace.

    I am keeping a list of the women that have progressed to stage four and some because of that forum. One started out stage 1 and started out on the stage one forum. She found the altie forum, was told she could cure herself by some uneducated idiots. She found Robert O Young and believed cancer was a fungas. She has just been diagnosed as stage 4 with liver mets. She still believes her cancer is a fungas and is treating it with an intervenous antifungal drug given to her by an alternative nurse practionar

    Than there is the 37 mother of 3 that was diagnosed stage 3 and had a mastectomy but was persuaded by the alties not to have chemo or radiation. She saw that drug addicted quack Thomoas Lodi at Oasis of Hope in Arizona. She is now stage 4.
    I am keeping a list of all the women that were harmed by the altie boards on BCO

  48. #48 Heliantus
    June 20, 2012

    @ Spectator

    is it really productive to attempt to bring science to places whose purpose is provide a congregation for arrogant, spiteful anti-science con artists?

    The con artists and other leaders of these congregations are not going to be swayed, that’s true. But we can always hope to convince the fence-sitters and lurkers, and maybe get a few of the believers to check again what science has to say, but more deeply this time.

    These people look less like innocent victims and more like a mob.

    The two are not necessarily exclusive. It’s a community, whose gurus claim to be under fire by officials for daring to propose a super cure and competing with the big shots. So mob-like protecting behavior is to be expected, especially form the hard-core believers.
    But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.
    I will amend this by agreeing that, in case of MMS by example, giving to your child a toxic substance after being repeatedly told of its toxicity (it’s bleach!) pull you out of the innocent group.

    It might be better to encourage them to document their progress,[...]

    On one hand, we would love for all of these promise-makers to document their treatments and publicize them, including the unsuccessful ones. It would make it easier to distinguish between the snake oil vendors, the deluded, and, who knows, those who may be onto something.

    On the other hand, there are ethical issues (the woo believers are not treating themselves, but their children), and also, a number of them are mixing woo and mainstream treatments.
    A typical story is for parents to give antibiotics to their sick child, not noting any improvement after 2 days, and then giving the child vitamin C, or whatever else is in fashion. And next day, voila, instant cure.

  49. #49 rose
    stuck in the middle with you
    June 20, 2012

    Only altie treatments that seem to have worked are publicized. Even those cases are “forgotten” if the patient dies of their cancer.
    I am always amazed how nausea vomiting and weakness are evil side effects of conventional cancer teratment but with alternative treatment are sign that the body is ridding itself of toxins or fungi or viruses or the altie cancer cure de jour.

  50. #50 Renate
    June 20, 2012

    @ Black-cat
    If I read your story about Chilli, I wonder how stubborn some people can be. Turning to alties to fight cancer, then, when it doesn’t work, go to conventional methods, which can’t offer much, because the spread of the cancer, and though the alties didn’t work and are responsible for the spread of the cancer, return to them, to make things even worse, if that is possible.

  51. #51 Autistic Lurker
    June 20, 2012

    @Roger Kulp

    Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup

    and then

    autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.

    gee…I think I’ll have a lambic beer :)

    seriously, how do they think beer was made for many thousand years before the discovery & use of saccharomyces cerevisiae and if beer was responsible for autism, you’d have a new meaning of the word epidemics…

    A.L.

  52. #52 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    @Renate

    I don’t think it’s about being stubborn but rather living in a fantasy world where you can have anything you want if you just want it hard enough.

    One of the biggest and most dangerous moron’s of BCO announced a while back that she was going to make a living for her family being a day trader. Never mind that to be successful in this field you need to pursue an MBA and than intern wtih a good company when you get out. Even than a lot of people don’t make it. She was going to be a successful day trader because she thought she would be good at it and believed in the secret.

    She returned 3 weeks later announceing that she had lost money and was very depressed that she wasnt able to support her family. The same women flunked out of nursing school and than naturopathic school and reasoned that it was because school was for elitists and she just did not fit in.

    None of this stops her from counseling women not to get chemotherapy and radiation and to pursue alternatives. She also believes surgery spreads cancer.

    She used to go by Sheila but her new name is JoyLiesWithin.
    How profound.

  53. #53 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    Here are the blogs of the 2 oher women that I mentioned. We are not supposed to know how sick they are and tthese blogs are top secret. In fact JoyLiesWithin just reported on BCO that this women is doing OK.

    This is the woman that started out stage one, progressed to stage 2 and found a quack cancer treatment center that agreed with her that cancer was a fungas. I believe she had 40 treatments consisting of IV laetrile, DMSO and vitamin C. They cost in the neighborhood of 60,000 cash. Cash only and they will not accept credit cards..

    After her 40 treatments, she received a PET scan that revealed a liver met and that she was stage 4. She was told her cancer is very angry and that she needs more treatments. She has found a NP that will give her an IV antifungal.

    When her cancer breaks through her skin and becomes a stinking, oozing, putrid, painful mess, she finally can rest assured that she has proved to herself that cancer is a fungas.
    http://www.freewebs.com/holisticmind/apps/forums/topics/show/6690809-impositive-s-blog-experience-at-camelot-cancer-center?page=1

    Here’s the blog of the 37 year old mother of 3 that is being treated by Thomas Lodi and now stage 4. This page is asking for donations because his treatment is 50 to 80 thousand dollars for 13 weeks.
    http://www.fightfortrina.com/donations

    Here’s her facebook page:

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-for-Trina/113964575369583

  54. #54 bad poet
    June 20, 2012

    Eye of newt, toe of frog, yeast, water…let it ferment in a large covered cauldron and you should have beer in a few weeks. I am not a brewer, but enjoy a fine beer every so often.

  55. #55 Denice Walter
    June 20, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    Those are horrible stories!
    Unfortunately, I read/ hear the *other* side of the despicable anti-SB cancer care equation- i.e. those who *sell* the idea of use-less and dangrous TIME-WASTING treatments to trusting people who are terrified of medical interventions.

    These liars broadcast/ blog falsities of easy cures and natural treaments without the horrendous side effects of SB chemotherapy and radiotherapy.( Actually without ANY effects). Over the years, these same prevaricators also boasted of their successful, non-pharmaceutical cures of HIV/AIDS. Most of the ‘cured’ are now in graves or funerary urns.

    Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.

    So what can *we* do? Well, we’re doing it.
    More power to you!

  56. #56 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    @Denice Walter

    Re: Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.

    Let me guess: Mike Adams and Joe Mercola

  57. #57 Denice Walter
    June 20, 2012

    @ Black-cat:
    Partially correct: Adams and Null. Mercola is right up amongst the elect bu ist not as flaming, grandiosely mad. While Adams and Mercola may have a higher number at facebook, Null serves as a clearing-house and gathering place for all manner of woo- all the slime trickles down *chez lui*.

  58. #58 Black-cat
    June 20, 2012

    @ Denice Walter

    Null is a new one on me. Just when you thought it safe to go back into the water.

  59. #59 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 20, 2012

    I found this youtube video of the 2nd woman.

    Trina is wornoutmom on BCO. She does not mention that she is receiving Hercepton and Zometa on BCO and wants the alties to believe that Lodi with his ozone treatments, vitamin C and IPT are curing her cancer.

    She has posted videos of Lodi but remains hush hush of who he is because the man and big pharma are after him. She wishes she can shout the cure throughout the world but he tellls her to keep it hush hush for now

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pKyp3QZoIU

  60. #60 Black-cat
    June 21, 2012

    I forgot to mention Vivre, who sells Usana and other shit on BCO and gets away with it. Here is her latest post:

    I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.

    Here is her website:

    http://preventcanswers.ning.com/

    Vivre is selling supplements on BCO and convincing women not to get treatment becaause conventional treatment kills.
    She has been instrumental in persuading impositve and wornoutmom not to get treatment and to pursue althernatives. She is dangerous and sends personal messages to women that are stage one breast cancer even the ones that are HER2+. She scares them and sends them to her site and tries to sell them Usana.

    She is also in Chicago and also advertises the antivax conventions with Christine Northrup.

    Both thenewme and I have sent numerous complaints to the moderators that have just replied that Vivre just expresses that she likes usana and that’s OK.

  61. #61 Black-cat
    June 21, 2012

    Some of Vivre’s greatest hits on bco:

    Check out this video from one of the docs I heard speak at the expo:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...
    Hi all

    Like Althea, I have been hangin out elsewhere lately. I just spent three days in holistic health heaven at The Health Freedom Expo in Chicago. I heard so many amazing doctors and speakers. Here are some of my favorites:

    Dr. John Apsley-former Olympic swimmer hopeful who had a health crisies right before the Olympics in about 76. He had to change course and became a doctor who has studied healthy civilizations all over the world. He has a new book coming out about alternative cancer treatments.

    Dr. Leonard Coldwell-An inspiring man who talked about the important of emotional healing. I got his new book “The Only Answer to Surviviing Your Illness and your Doctor”. Can’t wait to read i.

    Dr. Carolyn Dean-I got an autographed copy of her book that I have had my eye on for quite a while about Magnesium.

    I got to meet Marilu Henner. What a firecracker. She talked about how she finally met her soul mate, only to discover he had cancer 2 months later. She got him healthy with nurition and he is still alive, even though the doctors said there was not much they could do.

    There were a lot of health freedom fighters as well. Jonathan Emord is the only lawyer who has successfully won cases against the FDA and I met folks from a non profit that I really trust, The National Health Federation, who are trying to stop the FDA’s push to get congress to regulate supplements.

    You should all try to attend these events in LA or Chicago. It is a wonderful learning experience.

    Also, I am looking into water distillation. PM me if you want more info.
    The iodine protocol involves taking Lugols iodine or iodoral which is a tablet. The protocol must be taken with the companion nutrients of vit C, b’s, magnesium, selenium and “salt loading “. Just taking a couple of drops or painting in on will not amount to much. The best way to start is by getting dr. Brownsteins Iodine and Thyroid books. Read the books, then let me know if you have any questions.

    Madpeacock-iodine helps to detoxify and kills infection. Why do you think it was a mainstay of medicine until they came out with all those other medications. Then they tried to get iodine off the shelves. It is almost impossible to find in Europe. We can’t have any cheap alternatives. We have to speak out and not allow drug companies to rule us. I am getting together with a few friends this week to mix our own lugols to save money. You can see how to make it on youtube.

    Marianna-It sounds like you need to detox from the inside. Also, try fish oil. It is great for skin issues. Our skins is a picture of what is happening underneath. Your skin will clear up once you get all the toxins out. And I can identify with the appointment phobia, except that I was not worried about the outcome, I just did not want to go and argue with the doctors. So I went once and that was that. Have not been back to any doc who wanted to “monitor” me. I am not a child. I can monitor myself. I found my way to doctors who helped me to get well. Why do I want to go back to those who have nothing to offer but tests. I can get those done anywhere. And the therms give me such peace of mind, because I can see changes, which are mostly positive. (if I could j
    ust clear out the damage from the friggin radiation).

    GeeWhiz-try to find a doctor who specializes in hormones. Oncs usually have no clue. A great book to read is “Hormones Explained”. Dr. Raschid does a great job of explaining hormones, one of the best hormone books I have read, and I have read several. And also check your thyroid levels. For me, that was the key to hormone balance, along with diet, and as you discovered, sweating. Exercise produces serotonin and serotonin helps to produce melatonin, the sleep hormone. All of the hormones are interelated and the thryoid is the regulator of them all. That is why I could not get balanced until I addressed my hypothyroid. I do not take any medications. I just follow the iodine protocol and add supplements as needed. I also use my far infrared sauna almost everyday, which releases built up toxins and helped me to sleep again, like I use to. My girlfriend was reluctant to spend the money on one, but she finally bought one because she could not sleep and she could not believe how it has worked for her. Check out the thryoid/iodine thread for lots of information about the iodine protocol.
    Althea-Have you tried oil pulling? It works better than toothsoap any day. I had a gum flare up last week. I had the mercury amalgam removed almost 2 years ago but the tooth was still very sensitive so my holistic dentist told me to keep doing the oil pulling. When I started oil pulling, after a couple of days, it drew out bacteria and I ended up with a terrible toothache. I did not want to go to my dentist right away so I just worked on it myself. I doubled my Vit C and D, brushed with my Usana toothpaste, which contains xylitol which is a great for killing bacteria, and I continued oil pulling with coconut oil, with a drop of lugol’s and a dab of honey, which is also antibacterial. I also use kyolic garlic because it is concentrated and is also antibacterial. By the next day, all the pain was gone and has not returned! Regular oil pulling can get rid of peridontal disease. I looked at the stuff that was in that dental kit and it seemed pretty expensive. Adding up all that I used, it was probably under $20. Oil pulling sounds crazy but it does work. Another thing I like is a mouthwash called Spry that is only about $5 a bottle. It too contains xylitol, no flouride and lots of other good stuff.

  62. #62 Andreas Johansson
    June 21, 2012

    how do they think beer was made for many thousand years before the discovery & use of saccharomyces cerevisiae

    They don’t think.

  63. #63 Kelly M Bray
    June 21, 2012

    Another strange HuffPo post has all the cancer alties dancing.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-i-cuomo-md/cancer-prevention_b_1609446.html

  64. #64 Antaeus Feldspar
    June 21, 2012

    Here are the blogs of the 2 oher women that I mentioned. We are not supposed to know how sick they are and tthese blogs are top secret. In fact JoyLiesWithin just reported on BCO that this women is doing OK.

    … I thought I’d been desensitized enough and now this comes along. You mean these people are fully aware that they are sick as hell despite all the altie treatments they’re taking, but they’ve made the choice to lie to the majority of the world to try and make people believe the altie treatments are wonderful??

    I just don’t know what to say. I can sympathize with someone who perceives a conflict between keeping their integrity or keeping their life. I’m speechless at someone who chooses to pour both into the latrine in the same motion.

  65. #65 Denice Walter
    June 21, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    To be truthful, Null’s an old one. He’s been selling nonsense disguised as health information for 40 years! He is especially well-known for his ‘exposes’ of the cancer industry ( which appeared in an American skin mag) and preaching the gospel of ozone, mega- doses of vitamin C and coffee enemas. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist and works hard to frighten people away from SB treatments and medical expertise.

    A good intro to his brand of crankery would be Quackwatch and Wikipedia. Also lee-phillips.org. Orac, Dr Novella and others wrote about his poisoning by his own supplements. He has two websites : Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network.com . Yes, his own internet radio station to broadcast dangerous health mis-information and sell his products. He has influenced many younger alt meddlers and provides a platform for woo of all stripes as well as political and philosophical dabblers.

  66. #66 Denice Walter
    June 21, 2012

    @ Antaeus:

    That sounds like some of the postergirls for HIV/AIDS denialism- correction, the *now deceased* postergirls.

  67. #67 Calli Arcale
    June 21, 2012

    Antaeus — I think it’s because pride is such a hard thing to let go of. They are willing to lie because it’s better than admitting the truth. They are likely lying to themselves as well, or they’re figuring that yeah, they’re not okay now, but pretty soon they’ll turn the corner, and the lies will be true. It’s not lies. It’s . . . anticipatory truth. Yeah. That’s it.

    It’d be great material for a classic tragedy.

  68. #68 Black-cat
    June 21, 2012

    @Antaeus Feldspar
    They all do it, even Kim Tinkum never mentioned on twitter or her blog that Robert O Youngs treatment failed her. Chilli is still an MLMer and has an altie blog that does not mention how sick she is.
    Wornoutmom (trina) is getting zometa and herceptin from a real medical facility now and than goes to Oasis of Hope. She still posts on BCO that she is healing herself with her alternative regiman.

    @Calli Arcale
    All 3 women believe that alternatives will cure them of stage 4 cancer. and will blame themselves when death is immiment. It will be easy for Trina because she had to scale down her treatments due to not raising enough funds. I am sure Lodi will be pointing the finger.

    @Denise Walter

    Now I remember who Gary Null is. He’s the same one that overdosed on his own vitamin D supplements. The BCO alties love him and are always posting podcasts.

  69. #69 Denice Walter
    June 21, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    I suggest you read about Null @ Quackwatch, Wikipedia, lee-phillips.org, RI, SBM so you might have concise repartee for his faithful. He discourages mammograms and SB treatments for breast cancer while encouraging supplements, diets and other nonsense. His gross earnings are in the vicinity of 10 million USD a year ( spoke.com; manta.com)

    I’m a psychologist so OBVIOUSLY I wouldn’t EVER diagnose anyone but I suggest that you listen to some of his rants or read his writing and decide for yourself how sound of mind he is. He is a nasty piece of work who likes to sue his critics as Dr Phillips and Wikipedia learned ( both cases thrown out of court).
    I am fortunately, a very cautious person.

  70. #70 Black-cat
    June 22, 2012

    @Denise Walter

    Thanks for the heads up. I will check out Null tonight. He appeals to the older women on BCO. They gush over how healthy, and younger than his age he looks. They think he’s a real dish. He has quite a following over there and I am sure they line his pockets.

    10 million a year is sickening. If he is counseling against mammograms, he must be into thermagrams. I did get a good laugh out of Null overdosing on supplements.

    My training is in paramedic and nursing. My goal was to get a dual nurse practionar and physicians assistant license and continue working in emergency.

    Luckily, the prereqs of micro, physiology, anatomy, and chem gave me a basic science knowledge and allowed me not to fall for quackery when I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

    I was diagnosed stage 3C, inflammatory breast cancer. It’s a very nasty, rare, and fast growing cancer and it is virtually undetectable on memmograms until stage 3 or 4. It grows in sheets through the skin.

    It was quite a shock and I was overwhelmed with information on the type of chemos that I was going to have and radiation. My radiation oncologist told me that I needed to have a much higher dose than normal and let me know the real nasty side effects that I could have later on in life. Even with all this nasty treatment, I was given a 40% five year survival rate and a 30% 10 year survival rate. I was a basket case and needed anxiety medication and medication to sleep. I understand why the alties go into a fantasy world when someone tells them they have the cure. No breast cancer has a 100% certain cure rate.

    Next week will be year 3 for me and time for another PET/CAT. If I am cancer free I am told my 5 year survival stats will go up.

    I worked with impositive for 2 years to no avail. I looked up her stats on cancer math and her stage one cancer with treatment gave her an 85% cure rate. That wasnt good enough for her. She needed 100% cure guarentee and she went to quacks that would give it to her. Someone just sent me her blog along with Trina’s blog. When I read that impositive is now stage four it was like someone kicked me in the gut. I’m just numb and angry now. I would have given my eye teeth to trade diagnoses with her as would all of the women on BCO that were stage 4 from the get go. She went from stage 1 to stage 4 in two years. Trina had a 50% cure rate and she dropped it down to zero also. She was diagnosed stage 3 at 36 years of age and at stage 4 at 37 years of age.

    I think I am done with the alties of BCO. I have pulled all the stops and they won’t listen to reason. I’m hated and resented there. I even told them that I was going to be a quack and make lots of money. An alite asked me what is the difference between an alternative practionar becoming rich or an oncologist becoming rich. I told her oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living.

    I posted this on how easy it would be to be a rich quack:

    All valid scientific evidence presented against pseudoscience will be met with opposition and bizarre rationalizations. Vague and/or poorly documented anecdotes will be presented as concrete evidence that this specific woo can cure cancer by those who have a profound misunderstanding of basic science. Much of the evidence presented, will have some paragraphs poached from an intro to physiology, general, organic or biochem, or microbiology textbook for college freshman. This can be text, charts or diagrams. The only alterations will be whatever the woo du jour is being presented. This way it sounds all sciency and makes sense to those that would fail a high school biology or chem class.

    I could be a very rich woo meister. It really would not take much effort. There would be very little overhead to get started and to maintain my woo business. I would appeal to the anti-science and the anti-intellectual crowd. I’ll have thousands of marks, er, uh, I mean customers.

    I’ll just have to pay a web designer, get me some introduction to life science books, and of course empty capsules from the health food store, which I will fill with powdered sugar. Hey, I don’t even have to invest in powdered sugar. I could just fill the capsule with tap water and claim a homeopathy cure. Yea, that’s the ticket! If someone mentions Avogadro’s number it will just fall on deaf ears. My customers will just fold their arms in defiance and point out my sciency sounding paragraphs as concrete proof that my bogus remedy cures every disease known to man. Of course they don’t know that I poached those paragraphs from an intro to physiology book and interlaced them with a few poorly written paragraphs on my miracle cure. Hell, I’m too lazy to write paragraphs. I’ll just doctor up some of the sentences and change the wording to make it look like it’s all about my miracle cure. My highly gullible customers won’t have enough of a science background to figure it out. That quack Brownstein does it all the time and gets away with it.

    I’ll make up some claims that my super duper capsules might cure cancer, Parkinson’s, dementia, shingles, HIV, lock jaw, malaria, depression, and whatever else ails ya.

    I’ll have to put in a quack miranda warning, of course:

    rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quack_Mi…

    Damn the FDA. Damn them. They are evil through and through. Satan is alive and well and here on earth people. He has manifested himself as the FDA.

    Of course ORAC will take me down in his blog and quackwatch.org will try to deconstruct my medical breakthrough and say it’s pseudoscience. I’m not worried. By the time they get wind of what I am doing I will have a big altie following and will have made lots of money. I’ll just tell my altie fans that they are really BIG PHARMA in disguise and they are the quacks. That’s all I have to do is mention big pharma trying to keep a good altie down and it’s back to business.

    It’s such a shame that I have ethics. I could be such a good quack

    They didn’t get it.

  71. #71 Antaeus Feldspar
    June 22, 2012

    They all do it, even Kim Tinkum never mentioned on twitter or her blog that Robert O Youngs treatment failed her. Chilli is still an MLMer and has an altie blog that does not mention how sick she is.

    I’m not shocked by someone who is very sick but insists to others that they’re actually doing very well on this or that altie treatment; it’s sad, but people have an incredible capacity to delude themselves. If they say “The Schmuck protocol is healing me wonderfully! What’s that? Oh, my intense projectile vomiting that follows each Schmuck supplement? That’s just herxing; I’m actually expelling the toxins that way!” I think they’re grossly deluded but I believe that they really believe it.

    But from what you said, it sounded like these patients claim to other patients “I’m in great health! I don’t have any of those horrible symptoms that chemo would give me, like fatigue and vomiting!” and then have private blogs where they say “Oh my God, my fatigue and vomiting is getting worse, but I can’t tell that to anyone outside this private blog, because then they might think the Schmuck treatment isn’t working or is as bad side-effect-wise as chemo.” That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.

  72. #72 Spectator
    June 22, 2012

    @Heliantus

    That was thoughtful.
    “But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.”

    I think there’s a mushy border. Believers become exponents, raising the propagation of woo to a (fractionally) higher power.

    btw, how does one get updates on this blog? I didn’t see that there was a response to my comment until I re-opened the thread and searched within the page.

  73. #73 Denice Walter
    On the cliffs, northern hemisphere
    June 22, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    Your diagnosis and treatments are certainly not the easiest burden for you to bear; you remind me a bit of a guy who was diagnosed HIV+, accepted SB treatment and became a great ( and hilarious) critic of HIV/AIDS denialists: he also has a background in medicine/ biology.

    About *le grand idiot*- I saw the creature live, giving a lecture. He is profoundly un-attractive- in both appearance and manner. I wanted to question his credentials : he trotted right over to yours truly and asked if I had a question, I shot back, “Not about HEALTH!” and he trotted away. I did not persist because he was surrounded by scads of groupies- more than 100 strong- ready, willing and able to defend their master. Why these people think he is ‘hot’ is a total mystery to me. Looks aren’t the most important thing BUT when you claim to have found the fountain of youth and sell admission tickets to it, they are a variable to be considered. Especially when you maintain that you are able to reverse the greying of hair and sport an obviously bad dye job.

    At any rate, take care, hang with us, we f@cking rock.

  74. #74 thenewme
    June 22, 2012

    @Antaeus Feldspar-
    “That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.”

    BINGO. And *THAT* describes in a nutshell my biggest problem with breastcancer.org. That deception is not only allowed, but encouraged.

  75. #75 rose
    June 23, 2012

    I went to Trina’s blog. She has not posted in a month/.Her choice of ITP is lauded as heroic at bco with nary a mention that she goes to a real clinic for Zometa and Herceptin, The rhetoric over there gets old and blackcat and thenewme should be the ones laudes for their work to try and show that the Emperor has no clothes. The powers that be at breastcancer.org seem to just want to generate traffic. The site is run by two MDs who should know better
    Protocel. is only one of the quack remedies that are pushed.

  76. #76 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    June 23, 2012

    Speaking of bogus cancer clinics, did you know there’s a trade show every Labour Day where all the quacks in Tijuana come to a hotel in L.A. looking for new business? There is even a non-profit organization called Cancer Control Society that runs bus tours to Tijuana so cancer patients and their families can get the sales pitch directly? It includes Gerson, Hoxsey, places that use laetrile, sound and light therapy, etc.

    I found about this film on the Quackometer site. Yes, it’s from Al Jazeera TV but it’s well done. A British journalist went undercover and checked out a couple of these clinics in Mexico. It’s an easy 25 minutes to watch and is especially interesting seen from the point of view of the people going on these trips looking for miracles. Also to hear from a real Mexican oncologist who seems embarassed by his country’s reputation for quackery. He calls it predatory.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2012/01/2012111152415164558.html

    Read the text version too, as it includes additional information not in the film. These cancer clinics are licensed as hospices intended to care for people in their last days, not to administer any treatments. Most places will not give you anything in writing, just a lot of promises and smiles when you fork over your $23000 cash, in advance.

    And one of these hospitals (where Martin Luther King’s wife died) is run by a guy named Kurt Donsbach who has been pretending to be a doctor and selling tainted and useless supplements for 50 years. Quite a story.

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/donsbach.html

  77. #77 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 23, 2012

    I must have hit a nerve with Wayan who has the black salve site because he posted a response to me:

    This is from Maud at BCO:

    have taken a much needed break from this site but see that nothing improves nor changes. The skeptics who haunt BCO are very active on multiple threads and actually giving this site an extremely bad reputation, i.e. Chili’s own caretakers wrote a response to the skeptics’ comments

    Response to breastcancer.org and YouTube viewers, from website author

    http://www.blacksalveindonesia.org/PR...

    Word spreads like wildfire on the net – I would think that BCO would be highly concerned with its reputation and therefore prohibit members of certain organizations from posting on this site.

  78. #78 Black-cat
    As far away from the idiotic alties at breastcancer.org as I can get
    June 23, 2012

    Her link does not seem to be working. Here is Wayans miracle cure:

    http://www.blacksalveindonesia.org/PROFibuL.htm

  79. #79 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    I have emailed wayan and given him this link and asked him to respond.

    Vivre, from BCO, has just declared that she knows a doctor that has just cured her breast cancer with black salve and has posted it on her web site.

    Never mind that Vivre is an MLMer and is a health freedom fighter.

    Jun 20, 2012 10:37 AM vivre wrote:

    I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.

    http://preventcanswers.ning.com/video/black-salve-fact-or-fiction

    http://preventcanswers.ning.com/video/black-salve-and-breast-cancer

  80. #80 Black-cat
    My response to wayan
    June 24, 2012

    OK, Wayan, you have obviously have heard about my posts on BCO not believing that you have the cancer cure in black salve.

    You posted a reply that I call Mrs. L ‘s husband who could speak english. The problem with this is that anybody could pretend to be Mrs. L’s husband.

    Wayan, I would love to talk about your black salve pictues.

    Let’s look at the first one. What did you do to get those bruises on her breast…smack her around some?

  81. #81 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    that second one is not stage 4 breast cancer..

  82. #82 Black-cat
    This is Chilli
    June 24, 2012

    Chillipadi= Carol Chua

    Singapore
    Neways Distributor
    http://www.healingpastures.com

  83. #83 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    Vivre (BCO) = Linda Memmesheimer

    Linda Memmesheimer
    http://www.preventcanswers.org
    “Think Beyond The Pink”
    chicagonow.com/blogs/look-whos-walking
    also was “FEB” and “LindaMem” on BCO
    jlegm@yahoo.com
    http://www.healthfreedomdvds.com/store/detail.php?id=DVD-11CH225
    http://www.facebook.com/ThinkBeyondThePink

  84. #84 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    LauraGTO = Laura

    Username “chestnut” on preventcanswers.org
    One of the regulars on http://www.breastcanswers.org (an unbelievably hateful pro Republican, anti-Obama/anti-Democrat site)
    Good friend of Linda Memmesheimer/Vivre – helped to create preventcanswers (?)

  85. #85 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    Dunesleeper (BCO)

    Charlene Clark
    “Freedom From Fascism” conspiracy site (http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~cclar568/freedomNow.html
    http://topsy.com/twitter/dunesleeper

    https://twitter.com/#!/dunesleeper

  86. #86 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    These are just a few people on the altie boards of BCO with an agenda. There are more.

  87. #87 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    I am reading Chili’s blog which someone sent me today. She has not edited it and this part just really stands out to me:

    http://www.neways.com.my/user/carolchua/

    Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.

    My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.

    Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.

    Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking

  88. #88 Black-cat
    June 24, 2012

    Chili’s Blog

    http://www.neways.com.my/user/carolchua/

    Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.

    My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.

    Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.

    Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking

  89. #89 Rose
    June 25, 2012

    Blackcat
    As a regular poster at Breastcancer.org, I think I know the answer but have you presented the moderators with these facts?

  90. #90 Black-cat
    June 25, 2012

    @Rose

    The person I got this information from has presented it to the mods many times. She has saved all emails and replys. The brain dead mods tell her that these people are just expressing their opinions and that is OK.

    Vivre and her ilk frequently PM new members who are newly diagnosed and that are early stage. They try to scare them off chemo and rads for their agenda which is selling them supplements and involving them in their political causes. ie. health freedom fighters

    The majority of these women including Vivre have had treatment and claimed that they should have cured themselves naturally, if only they had known. They are on a mission to save others from “toxic treatments”

    There ae others like Lucy88 that probably never had breast cancer. She’s involved with bcaction.org and maybe some other weird orgs that we can’t prove yet. She’s pretty quiet on the boards about her cause but she’s constantly fear mongering and asking others to pm her for more information.
    I don’t know if she’s an MLMer but it would not surprise me if she is.

    Lucy88 lists no cancer stats but claims she’s a librarian. She has been spreading psuedoscience for years by claiming that she meets regualrly with a group of PHD’s who are breast cancer researchers and that is where she’s getting her top secret information that chemo and rads kill. The alties buy this hook, line and sinker.and treat her like some kind of guru as they do Vivre.

    Lucy’s av of an older woman on a surfboard cracks me up. She surfs in to spread her psuedoscience and always anounces that she has to go because “surfs up”

    Only surfer posers and wannabes say “surfs up” My mother says the term is from the old Gidget hollywood movies.

    I picture Lucy as some old crone working in a public library somewhere in the midwest.

    I noticed that she has not brought up her PHD cancer researcher friends ever since I made the statement that her imaginary iodine guzzling PHD strudy group would fail a high school biology quiz.

  91. #91 Black-cat
    June 25, 2012

    @Rose

    This is my latest email from the mods:

    If you can’t post respectful posts, perhaps you could just ignore the Alt threads?

    Please understand that this is truly not acceptable.

    The Mods

    They are more concerned with the traffic and numerous alties have threatened to leave the threads. Kind of like, “it’s her or us.” I have also been accused of stalking and being disrespectful to Vivre and Lucy88.

    On BCO everybody has a right to that opinion and you are not permitted to challange the validity of that opinion esp. if it promotes dangerous misinformation.

    My ban is lifted. You can PM me if you wish.

  92. #92 rose
    June 25, 2012

    Black-cat
    I will PM you. Some newbie with HER2+ cancer is being told to try MMS and DMSO by zuvart. My mommy told me not to mess with chemicals I didn’t know anything about.
    On that note, an oldie:
    Little Willie was a chemist
    Little Willie is no more
    For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
    Weird nursery rhymes when I was growing up, eh?

  93. #93 Black-cat
    June 25, 2012

    Rose,

    I tried to respond to your pm on BCO but got a message that I am now banned from sending pms. I don’t know why because I rarely send pms and the ones that I send are usually responses back to those that pm me. You can pm thenewme on that site for my email address.

    Zuvart has spun herself right off of this planet. I don’t know if she has an agenda or if she’s just stupid.

  94. #94 JOHN
    WANGARATTA VIC AUSTRALIA
    July 1, 2012

    I HAVE A LIST OF PEOPLE CLAIMING THEY HAVE BEEN CURED BY PROTOCEL,AND I AM ABOUT TO BUY SOME FOR MY WIFE WHO HAS TERMINAL LUNG CANCER,WHAT SHOULD I DO ? TRY IT OR NOT

  95. #95 JOHN
    WANGARATTA
    July 1, 2012

    I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY

  96. #96 Black-cat
    July 1, 2012

    @John,

    Protocal is a scam. Read Orac’s blog above. Cantron, CanCell and Entelev are other names for Protocal.

  97. #97 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 5, 2012

    @John
    Protocel is NOT a scam. It works. The National Cancer Institute tested Cancell in 1990-91 and their test results showed that Cancell did great against all cancers tested, in some cases resulting in 100% cancer cell death. Of course, they don’t say that on their website, where they lie about the results, but the graphs and charts tell the truth—Cancell worked, not only stopping the growth of cancers but killing cancer cells as well. I have much information in my Facebook album which you can see at:
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.109225998965.93145.604043965&type=3&l=dcadbc1843
    I wish you the best.
    John

  98. #98 Orac
    July 5, 2012

    Mr. Luce has obviously not bothered to read my post very carefully, as I addressed that issue by pointing out that the effects observed in vitro were only observed at concentrations way higher than what could be reasonably expected to achieved in the blood:

    There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.

    Only someone who knows nothing about cancer research would claim that Cantron/Protocell or whatever you want to call it works.

  99. #99 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 6, 2012

    Your response amazes me. You surely saw the test results with the graphs and chart. You saw the near 100% death of cancer cells in many of the tests and you explain it away. If there had been NO such good results, you would have said the test results prove it doesn’t work. So, now, the good results mean nothing. Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
    The quote from the NCI is full of weasel words and baseless assumptions—”There is little evidence…” What evidence do they have to the contrary? The “in vitro effects are likely due to…” trying to explain them away, yet without any proof of that baseless assumption. “do not truly mimic the in vivo situation” So what? Why do in vitro at all in the first place? The “results obtained [must be good ones to have to explain them away]…may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans.” They say that and wouldn’t care if the results were poor. So, why didn’t they pursue it with human clinical trials, to see if the good results “accurately reflect possible effects in humans”? Maybe I know nothing about cancer research, as you say, but I can read graphs and charts and see good results when they’re there. And so did Dr. Narayanan, who thought that Cancell had to be toxic to get results that good.

    Your problem is that you are so full of pride that you would never concede something like Cancell or Protocel worked even if it saved your own mother from a painful death from conventional chemo and radiation. Have you ever in your life said the words, “I’m wrong”? Do you even think it’s possible?

  100. #100 Militant Agnostic
    July 6, 2012

    @John J Luce

    Maybe I know nothing about cancer research, as you say, but I can read graphs and charts and see good results when they’re there.

    No maybe about it. Vodka will kill 100% of cancer cells in a petri dish. With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.

  101. #101 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 6, 2012

    You saw the near 100% death of cancer cells in many of the tests and you explain it away. If there had been NO such good results, you would have said the test results prove it doesn’t work.

    Well, by God, I hope so! Anyone who says “There are NO good results, therefore it obviously DOES work” would be a fool.

    Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”

    Think of it like car racing. If Bobby Thunderfoot wants to drive the PowerMax Spark Plugs car in the Coogan Bluffs 500, he’s got to do a time trial first. That time trial is conducted under conditions much more favorable to him than the actual race: He only has to do ten laps, not the full 500, and he’s the only car on the track.

    Now, his performance in the time trial may be good enough that they say “He can go in the actual race, and then we’ll see if he’s still good when he has all the other cars to deal with and when he’s driving for fifty times as long.” OR IT MAY NOT. Bobby Thunderfoot’s time in the trials may sound impressive when there’s no basis given for comparison, but if there’s only room for forty cars in the race and Bobby’s time ISN’T within the forty fastest, he’s not getting in. And all of Bobby’s fans who growl “Why, those cheating race officials! If he hadn’t finished the time trials, they’d have kept him out of the race, but look, he did finish the time trials and they STILL kept him out!” are just showing they don’t understand what they’re arguing about. There’s no cheating going on, just elimination of those who didn’t make the cut.

  102. [...] at least try to appear to). Recently, I noted that a particularly nasty form of cancer quackery, Cantron, is making the rounds. Then, of course, Stanislaw Burzynski’s “antineoplastons” [...]

  103. #103 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 6, 2012

    @Militant Agnostic
    “With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.”
    Good grief, M.A.— WHO “made up” the graphs and charts here? James Sheridan? It was the NCI who made them. The only “gullible” ones here are the ones who believe the NCI’s attempts to explain away the good test results. I find it interesting that Dr. Narayanan didn’t come up with any of that. All he said was that Cancell had to be toxic to get results as good as that. He didn’t say…way too high concentration … or, did not truly mimic in vivo situation… or, nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration (whatever that means) … or, any of the other B.S. the NCI came up with. If it were a new chemo drug and not Cancell you would all be dancing around the room when you saw those results. But your religious-like beliefs AGAINST Cancell do not allow you to do that, so you accuse anyone who wants to celebrate Cancell’s good test results as “gullible.” The next thing you will be saying is that the NCI must have slipped vodka into the petri dishes to make Cancell look so good so it could fool gullible people like me into believing Cancell did so well, but then, of course, explain away those good results without disclosing the vodka. Give me a break!

    @ Antaeus Feldspar
    “Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”

    So, you finally admit there WERE “SOME good results.” We may be making progress here. And, yes, “where we NEED it to work” is not just in a petri dish but in human trials…which never happened, probably because the NCI refused to do any further studies. But, admit it, at the initial in vitro testing phase Cancell should NOT have been eliminated as a treatment that “didn’t make the cut.”

  104. #104 Denice Walter
    July 6, 2012

    @ Militant Agnostic:

    Therefore, vodka for everyone!
    A young woman used to live next door to me and she concocted killer vodka drinks- especially Cosmopolitans- so altho’ I am partial to gin,** I occasionally partake.

    ** an ancestor of mine made lovely gin and sold his formulae long ago.

  105. #105 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 6, 2012

    Another thing that should be remembered is that Cancell is non-toxic. At higher concentrations it actually is LESS effective, so when it was killing 90 to 100% of the cancer cells it was at its second from lowest concentrations. When you factor that into a comparison with conventional toxic chemos that can damage the liver, kidney, and heart, Cancell would be a leg-up on all the other drugs making it into human trials. So, studies of Cancell should definitely have proceeded to the next level.

  106. #106 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 6, 2012

    So, Cancell never made it into human trials, except the thousands of humans who tried it on their own and astonished their oncologists with amazing results, including being declared cancer-free, not for just 5 years but for decades. Elonna McKibben had a malignant tumor on her spinal cord while pregnant with quintuplets. After giving birth, she was diagnosed and told she would not live to see her babies’ first birthday. Two years on Cancell resulted in her being cured of her cancer. Her children are in their twenties today and Elonna is still alive and cancer-free. She took NO conventional chemo or radiation, which she was told would have left her a paraplegic until she died. Instead she tried Cancell, nothing but Cancell, and she is cured.

  107. #107 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 6, 2012

    Now, that sort of story should excite you if you really care about helping people with cancer. But if you doggedly and stubbornly hold to your cut/poison/burn paradigm and make fun of successful treatments like Cancell/Protocel, you will never help anyone. Swallow your pride and take an honest look at the results, and BELIEVE the good test results are no accident. The stuff REALLY WORKS!!!

  108. #108 Chris
    Sneezing under a sunny sky...
    July 6, 2012

    Mr. Luce:

    Swallow your pride and take an honest look at the results, and BELIEVE the good test results are no accident. The stuff REALLY WORKS!!!

    It does not take “belief”, but data. If you think it works, then provided the verifiable evidence. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the “stuff really works” in Phase 2 or 3 clinical trials.

  109. #109 Chris
    Ugh... need preview...
    July 6, 2012

    Only the first part is the quote, this is not:

    It does not take “belief”, but data. If you think it works, then provided the verifiable evidence. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the “stuff really works” in Phase 2 or 3 clinical trials.

    In addition, ask yourself why there have been no human trials.

  110. #110 MI Dawn
    July 6, 2012

    @Mr Luce: How about :Citation needed. Are you willing to post Ms McKibben’s complete medical records? Do you even HAVE them? Can you prove her story?

    We are skeptics, and you are not helping your cause by either mis-reading or mis-interpreting what others say.

    Are you aware that Orac IS a breast cancer surgeon, one who does actual research (and publishes his research for review and others to test to see if he’s right or wrong – the true meaning of research)? Are you aware that he HAS had family members die of breast cancer and that he would have given all he had to save them?

    Are you aware of what others are saying? That to achieve serum levels that would work like the in vitro testing, the drug would have to be at toxic levels? Remember that in vitro just means something works in a petri dish. Tap water will kill some cancer cells in a petri dish, for heaven’s sake! The PROOF of something working is human testing.

    Please read what Orac says (and he even addressed the comment to you – did you even READ it???): There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.

    Graphs and charts are lovely. Orac has often done a wonderful job interpreting them for the layman. But you have to remember the difference between “in vitro” and “in vivo”….

  111. #111 Chris
    Neither here nor there...
    July 6, 2012

    Mr. Luce, often you will see folks trying to sell “laetrile” as a cancer drug. Yes, it killed cells in a petri dish (in vitro), and they did try it on humans (in vivo). They had to stop because the main active ingredient is cyanide, and the patients were getting poisoned.

    Yet, people still try to sell it as a cancer drug, often calling it “Vitamin B-17.” There are case reports in PubMed on cyanide poisoning from people trying it, and the apricot pits that is often sold as a “natural cancer cure” (they are full of cyanide, they are “bitter almonds”, regular edible almonds actually come from non-toxic apricot varieties).

    Mr. Luce, go to you closest public library and check out the book The Emperor of All Madadies, it is about the history of cancer treatments.

  112. #112 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Check out Elonna’s deluded, unintentionally hilarious website here:

    http://www.elonnamckibben.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=63

    It’s full of religious garbage and thanking the lord for miracles, biblical quotes ,etc. etc.

    So was it the magical syrup she took or her lord saving her? If prayer is enough why does anyone have to spend $500 every 20 days for this crap that someone cooks up in his basement on a hotplate?

    Mr. Luce, you must be a shill for Protocell. How much do you get paid for promoting this dangerous, useless garbage?

  113. #113 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Why is the Christian aspect so vital to this stuff, as well as MMS? Elonna’s website says that Sheridan was a Christian and that Protocell was provided by god as part of a “program”. He dreamed about a rainbow and saw the healing potential in the colours, or some nonsense like that. all due to a gift from above, of course.

    This Protocell testimonial is from a faith healing website. Note this man had both surgery and chemo before trying the Protocell, but it was god who healed him.

    http://www.believeinhishealing.com/

    (Of course they also sell Protocell…)

    Does that mean Protocell doesn’t work on Jews, Muslims or atheists, etc? Why do I have to believe in a sky fairy for a medicine to work? And if your god wanted to cure you from cancer, why did he give you cancer in the first place?

    Sorry to rant, but the quackery combined with the religious mumbo-jumbo makes me angry.

  114. #114 Denice Walter
    July 6, 2012

    @ Marc Stephens Is Insane:

    If you look into woo, you’ll discover that deep within its swampish muck, there is the germ of spirit- in fact, I have my own law stating this.

    Because they cannot base their claims in material reality, investigated by standard research that produces data, they have to go elsewhere, so there’ll be talk of energy, spirit, soul, chakras, essence, a higher reality and suchlike. A few days ago, MIke Adams linked the Higgs, Consciousness and the Deity all in one fell swoop.

  115. #115 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Here is a “Protocell-cures-breast-cancer” alternative healing site that will infuriate the breast cancer quackery watchers like Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and of course our host Orac.

    I linked to one page but check out the rest of the pages.

    http://www.thebreaststaysput.com/

    It looks like all these Protocell sites are linked to each other. There seems to be five or six perosnal testimonial sites out there, all printing the exact same lies and misinformation. Like Jim Sheridan was a “coal minor”. Maybe when he grew up he became a coal major.

  116. #116 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Denice,

    The energy and spirit stuff I understand, but people of all faiths can relate to that. Some of the worst (i.e. most extreme) new-agers I know are Jewish. But I’m talking specifically about Christianity and belief in Jesus. That’s a recurring theme on all the Protocell sites, and they all emphasize that Jim Sheridan was a Christian. So what? Who cares? If the stuff works, his god should be irrelevant. And that he dreamt it up, literally, up in a dream after god showed him a rainbow, well, sheesh.

    Jim Humble, Mr. MMS, also claims that god gave him the formula to MMS. His fake church just makes that veneer a little thicker, the same scam L. Ron Hubbard pulled when he started called Scientology a religion.

    So it seems a non-believer, or a Jew, or Muslim, would automatically be out of the running to be helped by Protocell. Pretty silly of their marketing departments to limit their clientele to one particular religious group.

  117. #117 Calli Arcale
    July 6, 2012

    I was able to confirm that a McKibben set of quintuplets does exist. The birthdate is off by one month between the source I found and the McKibben website, but I believe the list of worldwide quint births contains a misprint, as I found a newspaper article that is dated two days after the date she indicated on her website.. (The newspaper story has little more information than that, citing the father’s request for privacy.) Quintuplets are big enough news that that part is usually easy to check. The rest, of course, we have to take her word for.

  118. #118 Denice Walter
    July 6, 2012

    @ Marc Stephens Is Insane:

    Right. However, I think that by positioning himself within a ceratin sector of the Christian community, he’ll get plenty of clients because of this specialisation- just like car or clothing manufacturers aim their products at certain types of clients- sporty, lush or business-oriented.

  119. #119 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    I guess so…but here’s a scenario: I’m a non-Christian woman who is prone to woo. I’m researching “alternative” breast cancer cures and find all the Protocell sites I linked to above. As a non-Christian I’d be so turned off at all the bibilical and Jesus references I’d run as fast and far away as I could (and probably end up on some baking soda site…) They seem to alientating a certain segment of their market, but as you said, it could also work in thier favour. A Christian woo-seeker who is shopping for quackery might be “wooed” by the Jesus stuff and choose to waste her money on Protocell instead of Burzynski, for example.

    It reminds me of a guy I knew years ago who wanted help for his drinking but refused to go to AA because of their insistence on believe in god. I think that’s a tenet of all 12-step programs. He was a devout non-believer and it turned him off AA. He did get better eventuallym by the way, and is fine today. And still a non-believer.

  120. #120 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Ignore all the typos and missing words. I see them and know how to spell “their”. It’s such a pain to proofread and correct without the old “preview” function.

  121. #121 Calli Arcale
    July 6, 2012

    A Christian woo-seeker who is shopping for quackery might be “wooed” by the Jesus stuff and choose to waste her money on Protocell instead of Burzynski, for example.

    Exactly. in the US, Christians are a very definite majority; even if most of them aren’t fundies, the ones who’d be interested in Protocell are more likely to be (since they’re also the ones likely to be interested in faith healing). So what if they’re turning off non-Christians and moderate Christians? Faith healers make *billions* off of gullible fundamentalists; this is just latching on to that. In short, they’re turning off a section of the market that they’re not that interested in anyway.

  122. #122 thenewme
    July 6, 2012

    @Marc – you’re right! It’s infuriating!! I do think the protocel shills are all linked. The one on BCO refers to Outsmart Your Cancer, outsmartyourcancer.com , written by a real piece of work by the name of Tanya Harter Pierce, who says:

    “Regarding Protocel. Even though I devote more written space and testimonies to the Protocel approach than any other, that does NOT mean I believe it is necessarily the best choice for every case. Many remarkable recoveries in my book are from people using Cesium High pH Therapy, The Flaxseed Oil and Cottage Cheese Approach, Burzynski’s Antineoplastons, Dr. Kelley’s Enzyme Therapy, or other powerful alternative treatments.

    There are MANY ways to cure cancer through non-toxic methods, and no single approach is better than all the others for every case.

    I merely devote more space to Protocel because my book happens to be the leading book in print about it, and an important part of my mission is to help inform the public of this relatively unknown yet powerful approach!”

    Gee, silly me! I suffered the whole conventional slash/burn/poison routine, when I could have just used this miracle cure?? Gah.

  123. #123 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Here’s another religious/woo Protocel site, called The Creator’s Cure. I haven’t Googled this Bill Henderson guy yet. At first I thought it was a cannabis site, but the green leaves are only there to invoke the “naturalness” of the place.

    In this case Protocel was used to treat lung cancer. Of course the patient underwent dozens of medical interventions as well. God was along for the ride, of course.

    Here are some choice nuggets:

    God was patient with my mother as He slowly unveiled His plan. My mom came across Bill Henderson’s book, “Cancer Free: Your Guide to Gentle, Non-toxic Healing”. As she began to understand for herself the rationale for a dietary change, how food impacts her immune system and ability to combat the cancer, as well as the benefit of using powerful supplements, the Lord made a way when there seemed to be no way. He gave her the ability, the self-control, self-discipline, and the faith to embark on a life changing journey.

    She began a strict routine of eating alkaline rich foods, drinking hexagonal water, and taking Bill’s recommended supplements. It was encouraging to see the change that occurred in her body. She began to have an abundance of energy, and her appearance became radiant as the residual effects of the chemotherapy wore off.

    …my mother had 10 rounds of radiation. We were encouraged by how responsive she was to the treatment. God prevented her from feeling the side effects.

    The Lord saw it fit to allow her cancer to spread to her thyroid, three spots on her lymph nodes, and a two inch tumor near her spine in her back. This was the reason for the sciatic pain. Once again, a difficult blow. Once again, the call from our Lord to keep our eyes on Him. My mom received 10 rounds of radiation on the tumor in her back to assist in allieviating the sciatic pain. God blessed her treatment and she was able to recover well.

    She also began to carefuly consider an additional treatment protocol listed in Bill’s book: removing the mercury amalgams and root canals in her mouth…We educated ourselves about the history and science behind the field of Biodentistry. And finally, the Lord connected us with an incredible Biodentist…By receiving vitamin C through an IV, my mom recovered much quicker than those who undergo such procedures. This was first attributed to God’s protection and blessing.

    Here. check out all the fun for yourself:

    http://www.thecreatorscure.com/index.html

  124. #124 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    thenewme:

    They all have books to sell. And they all link to Protocel suppliers. Shills! Follow the money! (See what I did there?)

  125. #125 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    thenewme (and any others interested in BC woo):

    I’d love your opinion of this breast cancer patient’s testimonial for Protocel. Again, she underwent surgery. Am i missing something?

    http://www.thecreatorscure.com/Breast_Cancer.html

  126. #126 thenewme
    July 6, 2012

    @Marc
    Red flag #1 – her docs told her they got “99.9% of the cancer out.” As far as I know, that’s not the way it’s done! For me and for every breast cancer surgery I’ve heard of, they talk about margins – whether they’re clear or not (and by how many millimeters). If a margin is positive or “dirty,” I don’t think they’d know whether it’s .1% of the total amount! Of course Orac can correct me if I’m mistaken.

  127. #127 thenewme
    July 6, 2012

    Red flags #2 (and #3, ad nauseam)…
    Unless blatantly negligent and ripe for malpractice, docs don’t “assure” someone that their cancer will return after lumpectomy and lymph node removal. They don’t “assure” you that a swollen node is breast cancer just by feel. They don’t remove “all” your lymph nodes even if one or more are diagnostically proven to be malignant. Breast cancer tumor measurements from imaging studies prior to surgery are notoriously inaccurate, so her claims about her tumor size are nonsense. Ugh. Websites like this make me sick. It’s a good thing I’m not an FDA shill. I’d probably get fired for my harsh treatment of cancer quacks. I’d throw ‘em all in jail and have them practice their treatments on each other.

  128. #128 thenewme
    July 6, 2012

    @Marc
    Bill Henderson is another quackster mentioned frequently on BCO, where people are raving about his great “regime:” http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com/

  129. #129 Denice Walter
    July 6, 2012

    @ Marc Stephens Is Insane:

    Christian woo-slingers ( like those you cite above) cast their nets to a narrower audience- altho’ it might be the majority in their own society ; some of those I survey speak of a more generalised spirituality or soul-endowedness, unlike the narrow-casters, they do not discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or national origin- everyone’s money is alright.

    They even attempt to draw in people who aren’t very religious but ascribe to a New Age-y mentality that could encompasse ideas like environmentalism, world citizenship, Gaia-ness, Ancient Culture-itis, Eastern Mysteries and other curiosities. So whether you think the New Age will be birthed in Glastonbury**, Malibu or Tibet they have something for you.

    For a sample, read Mike Adams’ writing on Wedenesday @ Natural News about Consciousness, the Higgs and g-d.

    ** what I’ve heard recently, believe it or not!

  130. #130 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 6, 2012

    But, admit it, at the initial in vitro testing phase Cancell should NOT have been eliminated as a treatment that “didn’t make the cut.”

    Why not? I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that Cancell outperformed any other treatment which did make “the cut”; certainly you have not provided any such evidence.

  131. #131 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 6, 2012

    Where did Mr. John J. Luce go?

  132. #132 Black-cat
    July 7, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane:

    I agree with thenewme. As far as the breast cancer testamonial, there is not enough information. Also, women with slow growing indolent tumors can look and feel healthy for years before their downfall. Just ask Kim Tinkhum. Oh wait, she’s dead. My bad.

  133. #133 Black-cat
    disbelief
    July 7, 2012

    Re:Well… it looks like one of the BCO stalkers has been here looking for information about who we are and how some of us are doing.

    This person, who harrassed “altie” ladies at BCO until she was asked to leave that board, has found refuge at last in the comments section of Orac’s blog, where she posts everything she has been able to find out about the lives and personal identities of people she doesn’t like. Check out the second half of the comments on this page; she starts ranting around June 19, 4:44 pm. She starts naming names on June 20, 6:24 pm, ostensibly because she “cares” so much. For shame! The page is http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/06/19/cantron-not-curing-cancer-since-the-1930s/.

    Here, in the comments of this page, on December 13, 2011, 10:40 pm, she tries to recruit help to invade the alt board at BCO and “save lives”. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/13/nccam-in-the-news/ ; and December 23, 2011, 4:57 am in http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/21/steven-best-and-negotiation-is-over-clos/

    Isn’t she quite the little bully? (BC if you are reading – shame on you!)

    Seriously, you are that stupid? I am not the enemy you dumb sh*t. Impositive is now stage 4 and still thinks cancer is a fungas and so do you. You are encouraging her on to a very painful death. Read Orac’s blog’s and quackwatch on Robert O Young.

    Cancer is not a fungas. That FNP giving her an intervenous anti fungal should be arrested. All of those quacks at the Camelot Cancer should go to jail.

    Lodi treating wornoutmom at Oasis of hope should be in jail or rehab.

    I think those of you like Joylieswithin(aka sheila) are almost as guilty as the quacks. You see women dying but cover it up and continue your crusade to prove alite medicine cures cancer.

  134. #134 Black-cat
    July 7, 2012

    Oh, by the way, if I did not make myself clear, Vivre is a real scumbag. I suspect 11 other identities on BCO.

    Vivre sees the money that quacks make and clearly wants a piece of that pie for herself. She not anly invades the altie forums, she branches out to the newlly diagnosed women with breast cancer and warns them on the harms of chemo. Never mind that she is selling suppiments and directing sick and vulneralbe women to her website.

  135. #135 Black-cat
    think of Tina Fay on Sarah Palin
    July 7, 2012

    Here are some deep thoughts from Vivre taken from BCO:

    and I credit reading with getting me on the road to great health. Anti Cancer was one of my favorites too.

    A book I loved that was like a bible to me during treatments was “The Wisdom of Menopause” by Dr. Northrup. When she talked about women needing to listen to that inner voice, and it would help us to make the right decision, it really hit home. I realized my inner voice was telling me to say no to drugs, which is why I was having such a visceral reaction to the idea of taking arimidex, my onc’s drug of choice for me. Dr. Northrup even talked about these drugs and said they aren’t right for everyone, and we needed to each decide what felt right for us. When I read that, it was the first step to getting my power back and I got the strength to start to question my doctors.

    That book created a monster! I will never look at doctors again the same way. The book is not about cancer, it is about becoming the woman we are meant to be. That is why I loved it so much. Who wants to think of cancer all the time?

    Q-What do they call the person who graduates last in his class from med school?

    A- Doctor

    Joined: Nov 2008Posts: 2,163

    Post a reply
    Jun 22, 2012 08:57 PM vivre wrote:

    I just saw this conversation, and have not really read through it but I thought I would add what little I know about the baking soda cure.

    It sure seems impossible doesn’t it? Something as cheap as baking soda curing cancer? Imagine how many cancer centers would lose their livilihood if this was true.

    Is it true? I have no idea, but I sure would explore the possibility if I still had cancer.

    I first heard about this protocol a couple of years ago when I heard Dr. John Apsley speak about how he was trying to find a way to get the baking soda directly to the cancer cellsm bypassing the digestive system. I am not sure if he succeeded, but I saw him again last weekend at the Health Freedom Expo and after having heard his lectures and spoken with him a couple of times, I do believe he is no charlatan. He is a man who really wants to find a cure. He is a brilliant doctor, and way above my level when he lectures, but I find him fascinating. I also believe he has integrity. He is not getting rich off of people. His compassion comes from his own health crisis. He himself was on his way to the Olympics as a swimmer in the 70′s when his adrenals shut down (all that chlorine in the pool?). He had to give up swimming but went on to med school and spent decades going around the world, studying indigenous tribes with longevity and learning about things like water purity and native diets.

    take it for what it is worth, he is a man of integrity and he has spoken out about the baking soda cure. Here are some links:

    http://www.jmbblog.com/2009/05/radio-...

    http://www.naturalhealtharchives.com/...

    Here are some little tidbits I learned at the Health Freedom Expo last weekend:

    Take digestive enzymes probiotics and and vitamins with food, but before the meal. Take herbals between meals.

    Love this comment from Dr. Caldwell, author of a great book called the Answer to Cancer:

    “What is really alternative? Why is doing what the body wants naturally considered the alternative”

    he also said “All cancers are curable, but not all people are”. So true!

    I got to meet Marilu Henner. I did not know that her husband was dx’d with colon cancer, with a poor prognosis, 2 months after they were married. She nursed him back to health with nutrition.

    It was so inspiring to be around so many people fighting for health freedom. We must not stop demanding free choice! It was interesting that there were a lot of liberals and conservatives, and they all seem to agree that obamacare must go because it will limit choices even more. If the govt. is paying the bills, they will get to dictate, and since the FDA is already just an arm of Big Pharma, it will spell the end of so much of what we can still do here. It is almost impossible to get iodine in EU now and not easy to find here. We must keep fighting the bills that Durbin and Waxman keep pushing to put more regulations on supplements. Even though I only use pharma grade supplements (most are food grade), if they all are required to follow more regulations, they will cost a fortune. That is why big pharma continues to lobby for more regulation. Their business is down and they want it back.

    The top three most essential minerals, iodine, magnesium and selenium.

  136. #136 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 7, 2012

    Black-cat, you may want to learn to use “blockquote” markup to make it more clear what is your own text and what is being quoted from someone else.

    It’s not hard, though I wish I had a preview to tell me if my explanation will render correctly. At the beginning of the section you’re quoting, put an “opening tag” consisting of the following symbols (all together, not separated by quote marks and plus signs):

    “”

    and when you want to end the quotation, use a “closing tag”:

    “”

  137. #137 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 7, 2012

    Ah, nerts. Ok, the directions here should give you the same info: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp

  138. #138 Mrs Woo
    July 7, 2012

    Antaeus – I tried to use regular html tags here (and thought they looked right; could have been wrong) and gave up because I wasn’t sure it was “regular HTML tags” or some other kind of tagging.

    So (trying this as I type – if it shows up wrong, we can figure out if I am misremembering the syntax) [b]is bold[/b] and [i]is italics[/i] if I am doing this right, so I don’t have to use caps for emphasis and look like I have absolutely no clue…

  139. #139 Mrs Woo
    Dreaming of a ScienceBlogs that still has a preview function...
    July 7, 2012

    Nope. Will have to go research. How much I miss preview!

  140. #140 Mrs Woo
    July 7, 2012

    Well that is just silly… how in the world did I end up doing that?

    Not spending enough time on the photography forums anymore I guess…

  141. #141 janerella
    July 7, 2012

    Maybe need to use the pointy brackets instead of square ones.

  142. #142 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 7, 2012

    Mrs. Woo – the square bracket codes are a system called “BBCode” that’s used on some bulletin board systems. Many of them translate directly into HTML if you replace each “[" with a "less than" sign and each "]” with a “greater than” sign.

  143. #143 Black-cat
    July 7, 2012

    @Antaeus Feldspar

    Thanks for the heads up. I just reread my comments and it is hard to see where I am quoting and at what point I am commenting.

    I wish we had a comment preview here, too. I’ll edit my comments for now on to make them more clear.

  144. #144 Leah
    July 7, 2012

    Jun 28, 2012 05:19 PM KatRNagain92 wrote:

    “Well ladies….It’s WORKING! (Protocel)

    My PET scan results today showed SIGNIFICANT response to alternative therapy.

    Here’s just a little rundown:

    Left upper nodule described previously as metabolically active and can no longer be identified by PET and on the CT dataset is less prominent. The left hilar lymph node has decreased metabolic activity with an SUV max of 1.5. No new lung lesions are identified. A dermal lesion present in the posterior left shoulder is no longer metabolically active and on the CT has almost completely disappeared. Additional dermal lesion at the medial aspect of the reconstructed right breast has almost completely disappeared by CT and is no longer metabolically active. A right posterior chest wall lesion also is improved as is a right lateral chest wall lesion.

    Abdomen: The subcutaneous nodule noted in the midline has resolved completely by PET and by CT. No metabolically active lesions are noted in the abdomen.

    Pelvis: No metabolically active lesions suspicious for tumor. The subcutaneous metastasis in the right buttock has regressed significantly. There remains metabolic activity present with the CT lesion. SUV formerly 17.8 now measures 1.1

    Skeleton: No new metastatic lesions are identified.

    Praise God…this is so much better than I could have ever hoped for. Now, to go on my family reunion and start living! I leave in the morning and will be back next week! I feel like I have won the lottery!

    Thank you Jesus for helping me choose this path!”

    To read more about Kat’s entire Protocel journey, visit breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “Protocel 23”

    Would love to here your thoughts Orac. This women has stage 4 breast cancer and chemo failed her!

  145. #145 Mrs Woo
    July 7, 2012

    Thank you Antaeus – so it was all of the time I did spend on the photography forums that confused me. Now I don’t feel like quite as big of an luddite! :)

  146. #146 rose
    July 7, 2012

    Now it makes sense. I was asked to email some person at BCO of whom I had never heard. She identified herself as my RI friend. It made no sense and my reply to her asked her how many identities she had, Give her my email addy? I bet she thinks I help out Nigeriand princes.
    I can’t make it through those Protecel sites. They start taking it before diagnosis. Why? If it does really heal cancer why would you nip it in the bud so to speak , then you can not prove it works if there is no cancer to cure. Oh and the one where the woman died, seriously? She’s DEAD, not a stunning endorsement.

  147. #147 Leah
    July 8, 2012

    @Rose

    You have a vivid imagination! LOL

  148. #148 Mrs Woo
    July 8, 2012

    @Leah – there isn’t much there for anyone to really give “good” thoughts to. Anything that would be said on the tiny little anecdote you provide would be speculation at best. That is one of the reasons that anecdotes are not considered evidence.

    Also, since it really doesn’t have anything against your recommendation in it, why didn’t you make it easy for him and post the actual thread link?

    http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/784410?page=1

    (I know this will go into moderation, but hey, at least then all the information is shared)

  149. #149 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 8, 2012

    Leah, I’ll ask you the same question we have been asked before, in a context where it is far more reasonable: do you have any evidence that Rose is wrong??

  150. #150 Leah
    July 8, 2012

    Antaeus Feldspar,
    Rose (Rosemary), thenewme and Blackcat are all outcasts at BCO and are known for inventing high school drama. They all have VERY AGGRESSIVE CANCERS and are very angry at the world, especially those who have had success with alternative cancer therapies.

    What’s even more disturbing is that they feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo (cut, burn and poison) treatments on everyone, and feel extremely insulted and hurt that a growing number of members are not simply doing what they’re doing. Of course not all alternative cancer treatments are legit. Questioning them, however, in a civil manner is quite different than spitting words such as mentally ill, quacks etc., or making childish sarcastic comments. That’s a deep insecurity on their parts.

    The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
    Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.

  151. #151 rose
    stuck in the middle with you
    July 8, 2012

    Wow. I am so sorry the drama from BCO has oozed over here. And Leah, my name is rose. You can guess all day at my identity on BCO but you have things a bit wrong. According to my oncologist my chances of 10 year survival are better than 90%. . Using all caps will not make my cancer more aggressive.
    I am not angry at anyone right now and think free diagnosis of my supposed insecurity is worth the price but no more.
    Like I said sorry for the nasty that has made its way over here.

  152. #152 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 8, 2012

    Leah, even if I didn’t know anything about alternative cancer treatments, I’d be applying the rule “Civil is as civil does” and concluding that you are a far more likely source of any “high school drama” than the people you’re maligning. You claim that questioning of treatments should be done “in a civil manner” but you have no trouble disparaging mainstream treatment as “cut, burn and poison” and you have no trouble sneering at someone else for being ill complete with the fake endearment “honey.” I wonder if you have any idea how grotesque that is.

    Even if you were doing it in a wholly civil manner, I think I’d still be skeptical of what you say about Black-cat, Rose, and thenewme, for the simple reason that most of it is attempted mind-reading. “They’re angry at the world!” “They’re angry and hurt that people aren’t doing what they’re doing!” “They feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo!” “They’re acting out of a deep insecurity!” How would you know, when you aren’t them, aren’t inside their heads to be able to tell what they’re thinking or feeling? Frankly, it sounds like an angry child who claims “Daddy won’t let me play baseball in the house and it’s because he doesn’t want me to have fun!!” You yourself acknowledge that some alternative cancer treatments are not legit – i.e., they deserve the appellation of quackery – but when Rose or thenewme or Black-cat actually call them that, you can’t come up with any other explanation than “feeling a moral obligation to enforce the status quo”? So you have a credibility problem, even without taking the “taunting someone about how bad their cancer is” factor into account.

  153. #153 Shay
    July 8, 2012

    I think I’ll become an alt-med cancer cure peddler. I’ve got a herb garden that’s drying up in the drought and I need to get some use out of it.

    Plus, the kind of people who come to me will sincerely believe that, if they get better, it’s because they stopped doing what a real doctor told them, and began following the regimen recommended by some whackjob with a website.

    And if they get worse, it’s because by the time they began following the regiment recommended by some whackjob with a website, the cut, burn and poison of mainstream medicine had already doomed them.

    It’s a win-win situation.

  154. #154 Shay
    praying for rain; perhaps I should be dancing
    July 8, 2012

    Sorry. “Regimen” not “regiment.” I’m having Marine Corps flashbacks, obviously.

    (preview function, o where art thou?)

  155. #155 rose
    July 8, 2012

    As far as claims that Protecel is working, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the shrinkage of tumors was documented by a medical source instead of someone who does measurements at home and then posts it on the internet.?What a service to cancer research that would be.

  156. #156 Leah
    July 8, 2012

    “Rose(mary)”, you know the woman had a PetScan. Please stop spreading rumors. You are way to old for this silly nonsense.

  157. #157 evebarry
    Portland
    July 8, 2012

    I’m a moderate when it comes to treatment options…what works for one might not work for another.
    I don’t think it’s legal to take posts from bco especially to poke at other treatment options. There are copyright laws that come into play here.
    Also…should those who choose alternative be keeping a list of stage 1 bc women who choose only the conventional approach and find within a few years on the stage IV forum? Unfair.

  158. #158 rose
    July 8, 2012

    Leah
    You are right. I am way too old for this nonsense. That is all.

  159. #159 Sauceress
    July 8, 2012

    Antaeus Feldspar

    You claim that questioning of treatments should be done “in a civil manner” but you have no trouble disparaging mainstream treatment as “cut, burn and poison” and you have no trouble sneering at someone else for being ill complete with the fake endearment “honey.” I wonder if you have any idea how grotesque that is.

    Indeed! Leah’s posts here are rather trollish I would say.

  160. #160 Leah
    July 8, 2012

    Sorry if I hurt your feeling, Sauceress.You won’t here from me again. I’ll let you all go back to slandering BCO members in peace. Have fun Black-cat, Rosemary and thenewme and don’t worry, it’s not anybody is reading this thread.

  161. #161 Narad
    July 8, 2012

    I don’t think it’s legal to take posts from bco especially to poke at other treatment options. There are copyright laws that come into play here.

    Actually, that “especially” argues well for fair use, not that it’s a commercial use in the first place, making the point moot.

  162. #162 Narad
    July 8, 2012

    (The purported “perpetual, exclusive, royalty-free and irrevocable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish [blah, blah, blah]” forum messages in the “Community Rules” is just silly. This is 17 USC 201–205. Clicking “I have read the rules” is very unlikely to be an adequate form of conveyance, and there aren’t any perpetual exclusive licenses.)

  163. #163 JudicePrudence
    July 8, 2012

    Too funny! BlackCat, thenewme and so many others have your number. Good on them and good on this site for trying to expose you without interference.

  164. #164 novalox
    July 8, 2012

    @leah

    Tone troll much?

    How laughable, your utter nonsense and pathetic whining would be comedic it it wasn’t actually harming vulnerable women.

  165. #165 D
    July 8, 2012

    A. You were absent the day Fair Use was covered. The original author owns the copyright regardless if the violator is a commercial or noncommercial agent.

    Unless the intent is educational or journalistic, e.g., a review, the intellectual property belongs to the original author. Even the charity, The American Cancer Society, cannot legally lift copyrighted material unless they can prove educational intent.

    B. The author owns the copyright regardless of whether the publisher (BCO) claims it illegally as their own.

  166. #166 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 8, 2012

    I’m a moderate when it comes to treatment options…what works for one might not work for another.

    And yet it doesn’t work the other way around, does it? That is, a treatment which doesn’t work for one person might in fact not work for anyone. What exactly is meritorious about keeping silent about treatment options that cost cancer patients precious time, energy and funds and give nothing but false hope in return?

    I don’t think it’s legal to take posts from bco especially to poke at other treatment options. There are copyright laws that come into play here.

    The intent behind copyright law was never so that copyright holders could selectively stifle public discourse. Your “especially” clause suggests that you’d make those who want to disagree with you in public jump through hoops that those who agree with you wouldn’t have to. In what way does it benefit the public interest to give copyright holders that power? None, which is why the copyright system doesn’t give it to them.

    Also…should those who choose alternative be keeping a list of stage 1 bc women who choose only the conventional approach and find within a few years on the stage IV forum? Unfair.

    What’s unfair about it? The whole reason we trust conventional medicine more than we do “alternative” treatments is that conventional medicine actually wants to know whether its treatments are working or not, and actually collects data to find that out. Alternative medicine just trumpets its successes and pretends its failures don’t exist – or blames the victims, claiming they didn’t follow the “protocol” dreamed up by the guru in enough precise detail.

  167. #167 Sauceress
    July 8, 2012

    Leah July 8, 6:49 pm

    Sorry if I hurt your feeling, Sauceress

    Au contraire my dear Leah, no hurt feeling here.
    I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy.
    Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.

    I’ll let you all go back to slandering BCO members in peace.

    Huh? You seem to be suffering some confusion.

  168. #168 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 8, 2012

    Trolls never seem to understand the difference between libel and slander either. I’ve noticed that’s a common troll-trait.

  169. #169 Mrs Woo
    July 8, 2012

    I have to wonder if Leah will stick the flounce…

  170. #170 Black-cat
    July 8, 2012

    Leah is Joylieswithin, aka sheila. Here she is coping to “writing a long reply::

    “I wrote a long reply but will PM tomorrow since this is not private. I stayed up to watch Wimbledon and it’s finished so I must get to bed. I can tell you what really happened in the PM. Just to reassure you all, that woman has no critical thinking skills, she’s abusive, keeps a dossier of twisted “facts” about me, has no medical knowledge or even simple observational skills, and I know her weak points. She has met her match! I have her number and all she has on me is misinformation. Just poke her a bit very politely and she let’s loose and gives away all her weaknesses in her anger. She’s her own worst enemy.

    http://www.freewebs.com/holisticmind/apps/forums/topics/show/7777881-security-alert-for-this-forum?page=2

  171. #171 novalox
    July 8, 2012

    @Black-cat

    Seems like leah projects a bit much.

    But then again, what would expect from someone apparently so nasty as her.

  172. #172 Black-cat
    July 8, 2012

    Joylieswithin, aka Sheila, aka Leah, also posted this on BCO:

    Topic: Our private details, real names, diagnoses, etc revealed on Orac

    http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=1

    JoyLiesWithin or whatever the f*ck you want to call yourself today, why are you claiming that there is misinformation posted? You seem to be very good at making up your own “high school drama” and twisting the truth around.

    On the above thread you accuse me of this:

    “If I’m right, anything we’ve said is on display and we can’t delete or edit it. So maybe we do need to upgrade.

    I’ve just been subjected to a personal attack on another forum where personal details I’d given in that forum (not here) in conversation over a long period was incorrectly quoted to discredit me. If you can’t use logic, just attack the other person. Then claim to be superior. Fortunately she deleted the information after I challenged her”

    JoyLiesWithin, I deleted the my posts on you after I pointed out that you were Sheila and you sent me a PM, whining that I used your real name. You rationalized that you changed your name because that you were unaware that people could find out your true identity. Why lie, JoyLies,Within, aka Sheila, aka Leah

  173. #173 Lucy
    July 9, 2012

    @black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.

  174. #174 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    @novalox
    You want to know how nasty this stupid b*tch really is? She involved herself in Impositve’s “cancer is a fungas” thread, She did not like any reference to Orac because she did not like his attitude.

    Her son had just taken a critical thinking class so she appointed herself as the moderater/resident tone troll and sais that she was going to call everyone out on thier critical thinking fallacies. Everytime I linked to Orac’s blogs on Robert O Young and mentioned that he was a breast cancer surgeon, she accused me of the fallacy of appealing to authority.

    Impositive had spun herself right off of this planet and was throwing up every pub med study that she could find with the word “myco”, when asked for proof that cancer was a fungas.

    She was so far out there that she just knew that cancer was really a fungas and that researchers looking at slides were using the wrong stains and not seeing it. Impositive thought that only if she could discover what stain was used for seeing fungas cells under a microscope, she could truly prove to the world that cancer is a fungas.

    Long story short, a young stage four woman with young children called her and JoyLiesWithin, (who was Sheila at the time) out on thier crap. She told Sheila that she was defending the indefensible and brought up the fact that impositve was quoting studies and books that she had either not read or did not understand.
    Sheila, the tne troll that she is admonished her on the use of woo woo. How dare her use such a word. She apologized but Sheila was not done with her. She later posted that a stage 4 diagnosis equals certain death after much pain and agony.

    Yes, she is projecting as she is stage 3 and had a bilateral mastectomy but refused chemo AMA because it’s such a poisen. She got 2 treatments and decided in her infinate wisdom that chemo does not work for those that are ILC.

  175. #175 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    The BCO moderators just removed the link( link removed by Mods to protect BCO members)

    http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=2#post_3104762

  176. #176 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    How did you know that she was the tone troll of the altie boards at BCO?

  177. #177 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    Also, JoyLiesWithin is in Australia. I think if Orac checked Leah’s isp address, it would come up as being in australia.

  178. #178 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    JoyliesWithin also posted on BCO:

    http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/121/topic/790269?page=1

    The mods removed the link to “protect the members”

  179. #179 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    Here’s JoyLiesWithin’s signature line:

    Ethics and compassion must come before science and logic. Medicine can rarely cure so research and alternatives are our best hope.

  180. #180 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, aka Sheila,

    You say that I have met my match, that you have my number, all you have to do is poke me politely and that I will let loose and give away all my weaknesses in anger.

    I see your lame attempt at putting me in my place as Leah in these comments. I also see some of Orac’s commentators have put you in your place and you have left with your tail in between your legs.

    As for this statement,”The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
    Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.”,………
    you know damn right well from my posts that I know the seriousness of my diagnosis and as you like to put it “one stone throw away from stage 4″.

    Don’t ever call me honey again or refer to me with some other fake term of endearment you f@cking sick biotich. You are a game player with a twisted sick mind.

    You know I would have more respect for you if you were honest and told me that my diagnosis of agressive breast cancer made you feel warm and tingly all over.

    That picture of yourself that you removed after you discovered that someone could find you through google (DUH), was a good idea. We did have some laughs at it as you have the definate look of a half wit about you. Gotta love that big fat circular face and round thick glasses, not to mention that idiiotic expression you were touting. Where you constipated or what? It did look like you were straining.

    Honey, sweetheart,babe, you might want to lose some weight chubby, because fat woman have a higher recurrance rate of breast cancer.. You got that you little cuddly wuddly, poopsie woopsie.

    We also call you f@cktard. That claim that we are outcasts is not true. You alties are a minority. I get many PM’s thanking me for correcting your stupidity. See that’s the problem with you altie’s, you pull facts out of your arses. Any statement is true just because you wish it so.

    I remember when I first joined that someone asked about the atile boards and the answer that they got was, “they are very strange women who are mostly early stage breast cancer, with very strange beliefs”.

    So why don’t’ you come over hear and put me in my place. You have been threatening to do it so do it. I don’t care if you call yourself JoyLiesWithin, Leah, or BlowingSunshineUpYourAss. . I’ll know it’s you.

  181. #181 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    Leah’s, aka JoyLIesWithin latest post:

    “It seems one person has gathered information from around the web on people she disagrees with. She has then published it as she remembered it or out of context in a way that misleads the readers on a site that is not moderated like BCO. There are so many basic and important errors in the information.

    People on the blog claim to be professionals yet seem to lack any understanding of freedom of speech, freedom to choose ones own treatments, even basic compassion as they defame people who are fighting stage IV cancer.

    They don’t understand the basic fact that opposing someone tends to have the opposite effect and does nothing to persuade them to change. “

  182. #182 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    If I have any errors in the information that I have posted, I would like to know so please point them out JoyLiesWithin.

  183. #183 Black-cat
    More deep thoughts from Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin
    July 9, 2012

    That’s life, when you said a surgeon and a nurse, would the nurse be the one who constantly spells fungus “fungas”, or talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous? If I was having a nurse insert an IV line I’d want to know she or he knows the difference between putting the needle IN the vein or BETWEEN two veins. I’d also want to know he or she honours patient confidentiality. I’d want to know she wouldn’t use a patient’s disease progression or their depression to taunt them.

    I’d also want them to know that MOST conditions other than infections are incurable (but often treatable) unless they can be fixed with surgery. Especially they would understand that diabetes is incurable. Even the average mature adult with little medical knowledge must know that diabetics need medication for life and have their life expectation lowered. Or maybe they don’t understand the exact meaning of the word cure? I don’t think we’re dealing with a nurse at all.

    If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all. Just look up diabetes cure on the net, or intervenous in a dictionary. Just basic knowledge for a real nurse……….

    So I misspelled fungus. Big deal. Spelling was never a strong suit with me. I think you are lying when you accuse me of “talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous” When I refer or chart intravneous meds it’s always, “IV” or IVP” .

    What’s with the bizzare use of caps, anyway. That gives you away as Leah. And why arent you posting as JoyLIesWithin here? What’s with the Leah persona?

    Oh yes, as I told you before, type 2 diabetes is curable. I have told you many other facts that you don’t want to hear, also. Whenever you beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine, I tell you that NCCAM spends 27 million year on alternative studies and proves nothing and you proclaim “it’s a good start”. You come back a few days later and beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine.

  184. #184 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    As far as patient confidentiality, you are not my f@cking patient you moron. HIPAA does not apply to you.

    You also posted many times on BCO that you tried nursing school but did not make it through because they are elitists and your not an elitist so you were booted out. You than tried natuopatihic school but did not make it because they were also elitists. What the hell are you talking about anyway? I don’t get it. What kind of moron flunks out of natuopathic school.

    I want to address this statement:

    …..”If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all…..

    I’m challenging you f@cktard. Bring it on. Don’t spare me. I await with baited breath to hear the wisdom that you will dispense on this blog.

    BTW: whenever I think of you, esp. now knowing what you look like, a song comes to mind, POOTCHIE COO. You call me honey and I’ll call you POOTCHIE COO and mimic your bizarre use of caps, just to show you how much I care. Aww isn’t great to have these pet names for each other. I really think that we are making progress here.

    Oh yes, these are the lyrics of the song that reminds me of you……..I ain’t the sharpest tool in the shed
    She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
    In the shape of an “L” on her forehead

    JoyLiesWithin, we now have pet names for each other and our own song. Oohhh, I am so excited… Let’s hug it out, biotch.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xxQs34UMx4

  185. #185 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    @Lucy:

    Re:@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble……………..

    What other ID’s? I don;’t have any other ID’s. Big trouble, huh? Bring it on.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr6eHza6JVI&feature=related

  186. #187 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 9, 2012

    This seriously needs to stop. There’s a difference between using strong language while making a solid point and using strong language instead of making a point. If everyone who posted in the recent string of comments is who they say they are, both sides are descending to depths they should be ashamed of (and if any of those comments are from people pretending to be someone else? The moderators will find out and expose you.)

    It isn’t any better to taunt someone about being fat, or looking ugly, than it is to taunt them about a stage of illness. This isn’t “who can hurt each other worse”; it’s “who has the point of view that is better supported by facts and logic?” If someone says “Your favored treatment option has some impressive-sounding testimonials, but when you look closer, most of those people were doing mainstream treatment and alternative treatment, and there’s no basis for their assumption that it was the alternative treatment that did the job,” that tells me something about who’s bringing the logical thinking. If both sides are simply hurling insults, it tells me nothing about who’s got the right side of the issues.

  187. #188 rose
    July 9, 2012

    I had a comment last night that said I was too old for this. Now I am way too old for this. Bottom line. A woman has anecdtal evidence Protocel works. She is touting it as the cure for all that ails humanity. That is not how medicine works.I don’t call names or fling stuff but facts are facts.

  188. #189 Rose
    July 9, 2012

    Since my last comment is gone,i guess i was swept away in the rip current. I did not think i was insulting but I was upset by a mess at another website being brought over here. I will still lurk. I am in awe of the intelligence and spirit here.

  189. #190 Rose
    stilling hearing stupid leftover fireworks
    July 9, 2012

    Moderation? Something the website which will not be named can use. Love it!!

  190. #191 thenewme
    July 9, 2012

    @Leah,
    You have it only partially right about me. My breast cancer *was* a particularly aggressive one. 5 cm triple negative tumor with sudden onset at age 39 with absolutely no known risk factors, no family history, completely out of the blue. Thanks for noticing, but what is your point about that?

    You’re mistaken about my anger. I’m certainly not angry at the world. My anger is mostly reserved for the quacks and shills who prey on vulnerable breast cancer patients suddenly thrown into the overwhelming and terrifying world of cancer. Scamsters who troll cancer patient support sites with their siren songs, taking advantage of the fear and unpleasant realities of the disease, making false promises and selling false hope directly to their perfect target audience.

    As for the slander and defamation and libel and copyright violation accusations…. I don’t think those terms mean what you think they mean.

  191. #192 Denice Walter
    July 9, 2012

    Oh, let’s all take a deep cleansing breath…
    I’m joking, of course.

    You see, after years of reading/ hearing streams of invective launched by alt med proselytyisers, I often wonder how it affects those who buy into that worldview: they feed upon the vitriol and get revved up by the deliberately emotional language that is used to manipulate them and bias their decision-making. Read their fans’ comments on their facebook pages: you’ll see what I mean.

    And it’s natural to respond to their histrionics emotionally as well because we ARE dealing with life-threatening issues.

    So what’s a sceptic to do?
    We learn to not react to the name-calling and derision; our esteemed and gracious host is a Supercomputer who may well serve as a sublimely effacacious role- model for us.

    If you’ve ever been in a real emergency- a natural disaster or a medical situation- you’ll remember that frequently the best strategy is to shelve the emotions so that you can function effectively; during an economic fiasco, a person who manages money can’t rely upon feelings but data, facts and the rules/ history of the game. Believe me, it works!
    So here is a bit of a plan:

    We learn how alt med relies upon emotion and distorts real data:
    par example, they might discuss deleterious effects of a SBM treatment without talking of its merits and its benefit/ risk profile. So we point this out.

    We can dispassionately look at the real numbers.

    Of course, then their retort may be that all SBM data is fixed.

    Then we can use logic and probability:
    as I once asked a ‘prentice anti-vaxx superstar, “How likely is it that ALL the research SBM consensus presents about vaccines is fixed?” It’s more likely that there is a single chiseler or a small coterie of emotionally/ financially invested cheats.

    Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.

    We do it because it is terribly important and necessary.

  192. #193 Rose
    July 9, 2012

    Denice Walters
    You have an excellent point. Woo peddlers are extremely good at manipulating people’s feeling. Then when they have pushed someone who actually believes in facts over the edge they trot out their tone troll and join in a chorus of indignation. I am sorry but cancer treatment is not a game for me. it is life and death.
    I do not have scientific training but have a brother who is a chemist and a father, a husband, a son and a son in law who are engineers. Sloppy thinking has never been allowed in my house and you do not win an argument by dismissing a source without showing a better one. A scientific one. Probably (gasp) a government one.
    I find their total dismissal of government sponsored research a brick wall especially when it extends to dismissal of academic institutions because one department in the school received funds for a totally unrelated project.
    I don’t mind if people make money off my cancer. I will pay for worthwhile treatments but people who promote products that they know don’t work because their patients die are just -well I said i didn’t call names.

  193. #194 Rose
    July 9, 2012

    I don’t call names and I can’t type. I thought I had caught all the typos. Sorry

  194. #195 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 9, 2012

    Rose,

    Have you seen any of the posts on RI trying to discredit Orac because one of his research projects received a small amount of funding from Big Pharma? So that means every single word on this blog is written for and paid by the drug companies and everyone who posts anti-alt messages is in the pocket of Big Pharma, according to them.

    Wakefield, of course, was not in anyone’s pocket. Oh wait…

    I personally prefer Big Parma, especially with spaghetti or shaved over a caeser salad.

  195. #196 Rose
    July 9, 2012

    they never say who is raking in the cash for their quackery.

  196. #197 Rose
    ccontemplating Big Parma
    July 9, 2012

    Marc
    Then there is the mistrust of government. Oh but a word of advice, don’t go on a breast cancer support board and bad mouth oncologist.

  197. #198 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 9, 2012

    Darn it, should have been caesar salad. I hit “submit” before proofing.

  198. #199 Denice Walter
    July 9, 2012

    @ Rose:

    By the ‘rules/ history of the game’ I meant those of the _Market_ and was simultaneously making an obscure movie reference to Jean Renoir’s 1939 masterwork. However, you could probably transfer the analogy to *scepticism* itself.

    Human endeavors have rules and scenarios: by placing ourselves within this set of limitations, we can partially foresee and influence the most likely outcomes. Although dealing with the intricacies and uncertainties of a serious illness is hard work, *abstracting* ourselves a bit from it, from time-to-time, enables us to suffer less through the brief rest ( I *don’t* have any illnesses but have worked as a counsellor in this area). I realise that it is no walk in the park. Dealing with an illness and being a source of information are two distinctly different- altho’ often contemporaneous- tasks.

    If our collective primary task is informing people about the dangers of woo, it’s probably best to keep an even keel. Actually, I think that most of BC.org SBM supporters here have tried and mostly achieved that. Which isn’t at all easy.
    But like it or not, cool heads will usually prevail.

  199. #200 Rose
    July 9, 2012

    I’m still waiting for my check from Big Pharma. It sure would help with the medical bills.

  200. #201 Black-cat
    OK, I'll stop
    July 9, 2012

    Yes, I can hit below the belt, also and it makes me look just as bad.

    This was two years of pent up frustration with dealing with the alties on BCO. JoyLIesWithin sneaking in with another identity and sneering at my cancer diagnosis is the last straw. I have only posted under the identity Black-cat. I hate the twisting of the truth, those with monetary and politial agendas who feel the need to try to talk newly diagnosed women out of treatment. I hate the fact that the alties that I deal with there are highly dshonest and try to cover up the women that progress to stage 4 after tryng the much coveted psueoscience. I hate the mentality “doctors dont know anything and we can use the school of google and arm ourselves with just as much information as they have”

    I have a love of science and critical thinking and this is my first experience with a group of alties that will go to any lengths to distort the facts.

    The women that shun conventional treatment for alternative are certainly a minority but one life lost because of those altie boards is one life too many.

  201. #202 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    @Denice Walter

    Re:
    Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.

    We do it because it is terribly important and necessary

    Paramedics can get pretty snarky too. The harder the call and the more that it bothers you, the more you make off color jokes and laugh about it. It’s a release “to cut the tension” and those that hold it in don’t last too long in the biz.

    I did the same thing here. I’ll work on keeping my name calling to a minimun. I’ll still stoop to calling Gary Null a pig.

    I will still post information on those that try to make money off of vulnerable cancer patents.. The others who are alties and innocents have nothing to worry about. I spoke with a lot of them via PM and there are some there that don’t have agendas and truly believe that alternatiive is better than “slash, poisen and burn”. They are a little misguided but not a danger to others.

  202. #203 Denice Walter
    July 9, 2012

    @ Black-cat:

    Well, I wouldn’t call that stooping but it *is* extremely offensive to pigs who are, after all, just poor animals and can’t help either their appearance or manner.

    And your description ( ” twisting the truth.. monetary and political agendas”) is equally apropro for woo in general . I also differentiate woo aficionados who are patients themselves ( as in HIV/AIDS denialists) or parent advocates ( as in anti-vaxx) from those who make their living off them- unfortunately, sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products ( see Age of Autism for many examples).

  203. #204 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    A tired hobo asked farmer John if he could give him a bed for the night. Farmer John told the hobo he could sleep in the barn with the pigs. One hour later, the hobo knocked on farmer John’s door and said, “They stink to high heaven, I can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.

    Gary Null’s car broke down late at night and knocked on farmer John’s door and asked for a place to sleep. He took the offer to sleep wtih the swine in the barn. 15 minutes later there was a knock on farmer John’s door. He aswered it to find the pig’s oinking out, “”He stinks to high heaven, We can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.

    Farmer John is now sueing Gary Null for the loss of his run a way pigs.

  204. #205 Jergen
    July 9, 2012

    Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!

  205. #206 Black-cat
    Age of Autism crankery
    July 9, 2012

    @Denice Walter

    What a sick site. I see the typical altie fearmongering. Jenny McCarthy on the front page of “Autism Science Digest” Yep, she is the cutting edge when it comes to finding out the latest research on autism.

    Looks like the kind of comments on the bco altie forums if chemo was substituted for vaccines. Would work for this stsatement,”

    Only stupid mommies let their kids get the chickenpox vaccine. Kids who get the vax have an extremely high rate of serious adverse reactions, including death, much higher than the very small number who die from the natural disease.”

    What a surprise, there’s Mercola speaking out against GMO’s.

  206. #207 Black-cat
    July 9, 2012

    Re:

    (sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products )

    Yep, it’s very hard for me to tell if some of those that started out as marks and start selliing supplements and books, really believe in what they are doing or see how easy it is for their mentors to make good money fooling the gullible and want a slice of that pie for themselves. Others like vivre are very obvious but even with her, it’s hard to tell is she believes some of the trash she promotes and profits off of.

    Anybody could start a website and sell supplements with very little overhead. Empty capsules could be purchased from a health food store and filled with tap water. Poach a couple of chapters from a physiology book and doctor up some sentences about xyz homeopathy cure and one could be off and running. Conspiracy theories involving Big Pharma would be a must.

  207. #208 followerfrombco
    illinois
    July 10, 2012

    black-cat and thenewme and others. Ever thought of starting a website that would provide sensible support for BC? In other words, science based research and altnernative methods that have merit in reducing the side effects and/or are being reseached. If the site can be dedicated to sensible sollutions and research, it might fill a void.

  208. #209 D
    July 10, 2012

    Excellent suggestion, followerfrombco. If black-cat and thenewme set up a website, I’m sure it would be a hit.

  209. #210 D
    July 10, 2012

    Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it.

    There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.

  210. #211 followerfrombco
    July 10, 2012

    D, no need to be snotty. I was serious about another website.

  211. #212 Mrs Woo
    July 10, 2012

    There are websites out there giving out better information. Often people who are attempting to reason with scared patients who are searching for alternative treatments that offer “real cure of the real cause,” “no poison/cutting/burning,” etc., will share links to them. Sadly, desperate frightened people (or people who have no idea how to afford chemo) are often tempted and may even purchase various books regarding “real cures,” etc.

    It is fascinating. There was a temporarily free book on Amazon about “How to be your own doctor and knowing when to do so” or something like that. It was published posthumously by the author’s loving husband. She was a hygienist by practice and believed in toxins, etc. She also insisted she had cured several cancers by appropriate diet, rest and enemas.

    She died of cancer, too, just like Hulda Clark.

    I don’t know if some people occasionally get lucky and “hit” something that works for just one person, or if they just so happen to treat a person who has a miraculous regression. Without consistent results, though, any treatment is suspect. People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.

  212. #213 Rose
    July 10, 2012

    If one does not believe in alternative methods why would one include them in a website? Once an alternative is shown to work it is no longer an alternative, it is good medicine. Good diet exercise not smoking are all conventional preventative measures for cancer. I am serious here. I am missing the point.

  213. #214 Lawrence
    July 10, 2012

    @Rose – that’s what the alt-woo people don’t get. Once something is found to work, it isn’t “alternative” anymore – it is just medicine….

  214. #215 Rose
    Where you can convince a man to bring you flowers, with logic
    July 10, 2012

    Alternative medicine is not sensible support for breast cancer patients. Proven therapies are sensible. Alternatives are wishful thinking.

  215. #216 Lucy
    July 10, 2012

    It is good to see black-cat has acknowledged her rants here were a very poor decision.

    Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.

  216. #217 Black-cat
    July 10, 2012

    @followerfrombco

    Yes, I am seriously thinking of starting a website with thenewme (if she wants to) and others. I have been meeting with medical personnel and also plan on getting some university professors in the life sciences. My best friend is an attorney and we have been talking about the legalities of having a site. Se keeps reminding me of all the work it’s going to be and the start up fees but knows me and thinks that I can do it. I personally think she (and my family) is sick of my rants on bco and seeing the effect it has on me. They don’t understand why I even bother.

    I have been all over bco the past couple of days and think that I can do better.

    My idea for this site is to owned by numerous professionals who draw a salary of a dollar a year. Yes, there will be forums on psuedoscience and another one to list dangerous quacks but not to rant and rave about quacks, but to rather inform and educate.

    @Ms Woo

    Re:
    (People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them)

    I agree! I have seen enough of the altie forums on bco to know that alties either don’t understand or haven’t read the studies that they are touting. Of course these studies are to support whatever alternative miracle treastmet that they are cliaming. Orac wrote that he could find 55 studies on pubmed showing homeopathy works.

    I thought this would be remedied by having a forum on studies that is moderated by someone of science that is able to explain them. Thy would have to have Orac’s talent for dumbing down posts so everyone can understand them.

    It will take a great deal of work and effort, but I think it will work.

  217. #218 ABCDEFG
    July 10, 2012

    Black-cat – I hope you do open a website, and I hope it is advertised. There is a need for a place for people who don’t have their head in the clouds. It’s very disillusioning to read strings of posts, and then having the original poster make it apparent that their stories were nothing more than a veiled sales pitch for their favored remedy..

    Not only was a protocel thread elsewhere shown to be a sales pitch – the poster was angry that no one wanted information to try it themselves, but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.

    Honest information would be nice for once.

  218. #219 Black-cat
    July 10, 2012

    @Lucy

    I see now that your feeble threats of getting me in “big trouble” have petered out, you morph into a tone troll. I am not the one witth the multiple identities that you accuse me of. Those who live in glass houses…..

  219. #220 rose
    July 10, 2012

    Blackcat
    Any website you ran would be excellent. I know you would put your heart and soul into it and seek out the expertise of the very best, You go girl!

  220. #221 Lucy
    July 10, 2012

    @black-cat, I never said I was going to get you in big trouble. You must read more carefully. No one else can get you in trouble. Only you yourself can do that. It’s the same as I said before.

    Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically.

    Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.

  221. #222 Black-cat
    July 10, 2012

    (Lucy wrote
    July 9, 12:11 am

    @black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.)

    Re:
    Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically)

    Yes, I take your first post as feeble threats to silence me. Tell me, Lucy, did you give critical thought to that first post and is that an example of how carefully you choose your own words?

  222. #223 thenewme
    July 10, 2012

    @followerfrombco and blackcat – thanks for the kind words, but honestly, I don’t think I have it in me to do a website. I’d love if one existed, but my experience with BCO has left me pretty disillusioned.

    @D – Re: “Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it. There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.”

    Apparently you haven’t read my posts on BCO, since I *do* post actual factual, evidence-based information. Or maybe you’re under the influence of the quacks (if it walks like a duck and sells rubber ducky suits, then…ya know.) who consider “actual information” to be things like Rife machine therapy or oil pulling or alkaline diet or BHRT therapy for curing your own cancer without the bothersome and evil influence of real medical doctors (no, the “naturopathic oncologists” they like to rave about don’t count.)

  223. #224 thenewme
    July 10, 2012

    @MrsWoo
    Re: “People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.”

    I couldn’t agree more! I’m so frustrated that BCO, which *could be* such a great support resource for real breast cancer patients dealing with a very real life-threatening disease, has become a haven for quacks and misinformation. The shills and MLM’ers there make a game of it, appealing to the vulnerable emotions and desperation of patients in order to hawk their useless supplements, “rebounders,” infrared saunas, health freedom expos, thermography, and every other quack treatment you can think of and then some! When confronted about their agendas, they either shift the focus or downright lie about their affiliations and then try to turn it around and make *me* out to be the bully or troll or Big Pharma shill or whatever. It’s sick. Just really, really sick.

  224. #225 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 10, 2012

    Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.

    And just what do you mean by “define” in this context, Lucy? I suspect you haven’t actually thought about what you mean by it, and have given even less thought to whether the premise it denotes is actually, y’know, true.

    I suspect you mean something along the lines of “If I tell myself I’m a wise seeker of truths, those words will define me as a wise seeker of truths. They will make my actions wise actions; they will make the truth be where I am seeking it.” Sadly, the world does not work this way. If I invest my savings into a perpetual motion machine scheme, it does not make a difference if I try to define myself with words as “a brilliant entrepeneur.” My actions have defined me more deeply than my words can.

  225. #226 Lucy
    July 10, 2012

    @ black-cat, absolutely. I always choose my words carefully and measure them critically. I wasn’t trying to silence you, btw. If you are to be silent or not is entirely up to you. I was simply giving you a heads up.

    I do wish you well and hope you are in a better place now.

  226. #227 thenewme
    July 10, 2012

    @Antaeus Feldspar,
    Careful, now! You’re cutting right to the heart of the very essence of quackery there!

    *Of course* it’s true if they think/want/say it to be true! Just ask ‘em! How else are they supposed to increase their downline and affiliate income and bonuses?

  227. #228 Lucy
    July 10, 2012

    @ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. Black-cat made several disparaging posts about several different people. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them.

    Are you saying you believe that say, my words, can define who you are? Surely not.

  228. #229 Black-cat
    July 10, 2012

    Lucy, why would you lie about me having multiple ID’s. What does this say about you? Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco. If you are Lucy88,you lie like a rug. And what are you giving me a heads up about? Your thinly veiled threats are extremely vague.

    See, that’s my problem with you alties, you twist words and the truth to mean whatever you want them to mean. Every single one of you that I mentioned here are highly dishonest game players. Let’s take Leah, JoyLIesWithin, Sheila for instance. She was called out here for for sneering at my breast cancer diagnosis. What did she do? Go straight back to bco and make the announcement that the commentators on Orac’s site sneer at women with stage 4 breast cancer. She also ranted that this site is censored. Classic example of an altie wanting others to believe something is true just because she said so.

    I would not care if you were on a worried well altie site but you are messing with sick and vulnerable women’s heads for your own agendas. Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco.

    Why don’t you cut the crap on the fake caring. I just love this thinly veiled slight at the pretense of being compassionate and concerened.

    (Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.)

    As for being in a better place RI f@cking rocks. Tone trolls like you are called out on their crap, unlike the altie boards at bco.

  229. #230 Black-cat
    July 10, 2012

    LUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPLAININ TO DO

    Do you not see the obvious difference in meaning between these two deep thoughts of yours:

    (Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.)

    (@ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them)

    There you go getting all twisty with those words again. You alties are true Darwiniian Award winners when it comes to rationalizing your nonsense..

  230. #231 Rose
    In a place where words mean what they say
    July 10, 2012

    If my words define me does that mean that if I say I am a mermaid then I am one? But wait NOAA says mermaids don’t exist. Dang gubmint..

  231. #232 Chemmomo
    Where the mermaid are
    July 11, 2012

    Rose July 10, 9:59 pm

    NOAA says mermaids don’t exist. Dang gubmint..

    Don’t tell my daughter!
    My husband sent me a text about it last week. I told him he was evil until he promised not to tell.

  232. #233 Rose
    July 11, 2012

    My husband keeps saying they are manatees and when I say manatees do not look like beautiful women he replies that I have not been at sea for months.

  233. #234 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 11, 2012

    @ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. Black-cat made several disparaging posts about several different people. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them.

    Are you saying you believe that say, my words, can define who you are? Surely not.

    I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. I don’t think you’ve thought about just what you mean when you say “define”, and if you mean it in such a way that every person gets to define themselves simply by choosing words, and that “definition” will apply even if it is contradicted by their actions, then I think your definition of “define” is a load of crap.

  234. #235 Rose
    July 11, 2012

    @Lucy
    No one else can get you in trouble? Does that mean that no one ever got framed for a crime?
    Your comment looks like a clever aphorism the meaning of which you have not thought through.
    That is not said yo pick on you but merely to ask exactly what you meant because your words were not clear to me..

  235. #236 Kay Hanson
    Canada
    July 11, 2012

    I am a stage IV breast cancer person who goes to the forums on BCO for research, and also for community with women and men who are experiencing the same/similar thing at the same time as me. I was a registered nurse as well as a registered midwife who was educated in a evidenced based university program designed by some of the people in the forefront of evidence based medicine at McMaster University. I say this by way of explanation of who I am and where I am coming from.
    My treatment consists of those recommended by Cancer Care Ontario, mx, docetaxol, herceptin, letrozole. I get weary of all that, including blood work, diagnostic scans etc. so when I go to the Alternative Forums and Complementary Forums at BCO I am looking for something, I don’t know, the germ of something new, something that might make physiological sense, but it’s so new that it is Alt. I haven’t found that something, but I continue, maybe that’s why I have been convinced to buy way over priced face creams that I know are “just hope in a bottle”. I think that while there are credulous members of BCO, the majority of us are rather sensible women who want to know as much as we can about all aspects of possible treatment, evidence based medicine, as well as woo and things that are just “out there”. I do wish that this thread could stop discussing specific women from BCO and back to the topic Protocel-it doesn’t work.

  236. #237 thenewme
    July 11, 2012

    @Kay Hudson,
    I go there for the same reasons you do….searching for that proverbial needle in a haystack. Something that might just give me a treatment edge.

    I know what you mean about discussing specific women from BCO. On the other hand, though, a woman there claims to be having fantastic results curing her own Stage IV breast cancer with protocel (using a dimestore ruler to measure her palpable tumors and using eye goop and stool mucus as a gauge of progress!). She has started her own website to “PROMOTE PROTOCEL” (her own words from her site!), and she’s hawking it there on BCO.

    In my opinion, it’s disgusting, disingenuous, and just evil. If she wants to use protocel, I have no problem at all with that. To me, she crossed the line into promoting it and making unsubstantiated claims about it directly to a very captivated target audience of breast cancer patients, that she deserves to be called out. Called out for being a scammer and a quack. At that point, she’s no longer ” just an innocent breast cancer patient fighting the battle for her life” like the rest of us.

    Why doesn’t she participate in a *REAL* medical monitoring program if her success is real, verifiable, and legitimate? Why don’t the Protocel makers do a real trial? I guarantee if it showed real evidence of benefit in treating, curing, or preventing cancer, they’d have more money and fame than they could handle. I’d give every penny I have and dedicate my life to promoting it too.

    Unfortunately, when I look into it, all I find are affiliate networking links to Tanya Hart Pierce’s book “Outsmart Your Cancer,” promising me great income potential for hawking her BS.

    Protocel is just another Amway-type scam. Except that instead of cleaners that leave dirty floors, Protocel kills people. An innocent game? A poor desperate breast cancer patient trying to survive? Or a con artist earning income by deceiving cancer patients with false promises, life-threatening advice and conspiracy bullshit?

  237. #238 thenewme
    July 11, 2012

    @ORAC – just for the record, I stand by every single thing I post, here and elsewhere. I don’t have time, energy, or reason to pretend to be something or someone I’m not, despite what you may be told. I’m sorry that some seem to be trying to drag you into the fray, but I’m happy to clarify or provide more information about anything I’ve said.

    Thanks again for all you do!

  238. #239 Lucy
    July 11, 2012

    @black-cat, first, I am not an altie. In fact, I have never posted on the forum at bco. I’ve never heard of Lucy88.

    I was disturbed to see someone with breast cancer direct so much vitriol and hatred toward other women with breast cancer. Your horrific words towards others define who you are. Words are powerful things. The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.

    I

  239. #240 thenewme
    July 11, 2012

    @Lucy,
    I won’t speak for blackcat, but your mis-perception is a common cry from “alties.” Most skeptics’ “vitriol and hatred” isn’t toward other women with breast cancer. It’s more likely directed at predators of women with breast cancer.

  240. #241 thenewme
    July 11, 2012

    @ABCDEFG
    Re: “…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”

    OMG, I just saw that! So she’s holding the secret to miraculously curing her own large DCIS breast cancer tumor without surgery…. and she’ll report her results on November 7, 2012??? Gee. I’m holding my breath….

  241. #242 Rose
    where miracle cures don't fall from trees
    July 11, 2012

    I guess the secret miracle cure is to keep people paying attention to her.

  242. #243 Black-cat
    LUUUUUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPAININ TO DO
    July 11, 2012

    @thenewme

    We have been friends for a long time. You can freely speak for me anytime. I trust you with my impeccable reputation. I just sent you an email. Would love to hear your thoughts.

    @Lucy

    Re:(“The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.”)

    Give it up. This is the 3rd time you have twisted the meaning of YOUR words. Not an altie, huh. Could have fooled me for the way you rationalize what you wrote when you are called out on your crap. Gee, how does that define your emotional health. Emotionally healthy people don’t rationalize away their mistakes and don’t come across as pathological liars.. Alties can out rationalize and out lie any hard core alcholic under the table any day. Until I was introduced to the topsy turvy altie alternate universe, I thought alcoholics held the corner market when it came to rationalizing and lying.

    I strongly suspect you are Lucy88, your writing styles are exact, and you both love to twist the meaning of your words around when confronted on the validity of the meaning of those said words. . But I can’t prove it because you are not announcing on other websites under other names who you are and “how I have met my match” and than seem surprised when I out you (duh).

    So, I can’t prove that you are the person that I strongly suspect that you are but frankly, Scarlett, I don’t give a damn. Give it up. You have been successfully called out on your drivel.

    I suggest you go back to the altie boards on bco where you are an accepted and revered alumni. All of this negativity cannot be good for your inner peace. Your chakras are probably so far off center it’s going to take a special naturopath that’s trained in quantum mechanics of the mind and the art of reseting your nervous system to get you back to center. That’s gotta cost some big bucks.

  243. #244 Boudicca
    July 11, 2012

    Those on BCO who claim to be in the medical field yet harass, insult and denigrate women with breast cancer and who are crying mommy here are:

    1. not credible. Period
    2. give the medical professions a very bad name
    3. out of touch with reality
    4. extremely dangerous – willing to go to any length
    5. in need of immediate psychiatric help

    There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women. Their cruelty fills me with revulsion

    To the cannibal amongst you who said:

    ‘I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy. Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.’

    You must be possessed. The most grotesque and creepy creature I have ever seen, I can’t even imagine the looks of you because I don’t watch horror movies

    And to the one that said:

    ‘Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!’

    YOU WIN THE PRIZE FOR THE MOST VULGAR AND DETESTABLE BIOTCHE !

    To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach

    FYI Orac, unless you are thenewme/ blackcat, that despicable creature has been hiding behind your name on BCO and thanks to her/him you have become the symbol of insanity. You are despised as much as the coward it is

    Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration ;)

    ETA: thenewme/blackcat is likely the author of:

    “…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”

    I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?

  244. #245 Black-cat
    July 11, 2012

    I have to add that I love the fact that Orac does not tolerate sock puppets on this site. Lucy, you can’t make up other identities to back you up. If this were bco, there would be 5 more Lucy’s under different names posting for the first time. Each of those identities would claim that they just out of the blue stumbled on this thread and have to speak up on the poor injustices that Lucy is suffering. The writing style would be just like Lucy’s. The fact that you can’t do that here must really chaff your hide.

  245. #246 thenewme
    July 11, 2012

    @Boudicca,
    Re: “I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?”

    Yeah…and demonstrated it, too!

  246. #247 jergen
    July 11, 2012

    @Boudicca – awwwww, shucks….thank you!

    *Jergen says while holding up her gold statue award*

    I would like to thank all the idiotic Alties on BCO. Without them, this would not be possible. Thank you!

  247. #248 Rose
    July 11, 2012

    Oh my. Boudicca.
    First of all trolls are nasty mean creatures who live under bridges and while eating them would not be to my taste, exactly how is that cannibalism?
    Oh and who was it who said”There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women.” I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gore.

  248. #249 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 11, 2012

    @black-cat, first, I am not an altie. In fact, I have never posted on the forum at bco. I’ve never heard of Lucy88.

    Interesting. So, you aren’t deeply enough involved with the BCO forums to have ever posted there, or to have ever heard of Lucy88, but you are deeply enough involved that within days of Black-cat starting to post here, you’re already aware of it and volunteering all sorts of (so far, unsubstantiated) attacks on her character?

    You are aware that in the best-case scenario, this paints you as someone who has little interest in posting constructively, on a subject where you could be offering help or moral support, but has great interest in bad-mouthing people and will bestir themselves to post if it means they get to tarnish a reputation?

  249. #250 Redloh
    USA
    July 11, 2012

    The alt forum on BCO is dominated by women who want no questions asked. Nobody attacks them as much as they attack and whine about anyone who dares to ask for information that provides evidence of efficacy. Very often the sales types stop posting when the questions become too pointed and skeptical. At that point they must figure they are about to be exposed. Usually they cry they are being bullied. No, they are being asked for information.

    The site is run by a Dr and I truly do not understand why these people are given free reign to promote Protocel, black salve, etc. it’s despicable on the part of the site owner.

    Then again if these people are stupid enough to believe this BS perhaps we should just turn away from the coming train wreck.

  250. #251 Black-cat
    LUUUUUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPLAININ TO DO
    July 11, 2012

    @Antaeus Feldspar

    And this is Lucy’s very first post,, who just just happened to stumple upon the comment sections of this particular post

    Lucy
    July 9, 12:11 am

    (@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble)

    ‘Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive’

    Antaeus, I will beat you one coffee enema that Lucy’s not done here and still tries to put a spin on this misinformation of hers.

  251. #252 Black-cat
    wishing for print preview
    July 11, 2012

    make that bet you one coffee enema

  252. #253 Black-cat
    July 11, 2012

    @Boudicca
    Re:

    (Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration )

    I can understand what a relief it must be for you to release copious amounts of methane gas into the atmosphere from your bloated body , but just think of what you are doing to the ozone layer. You are creating a clear and present danger. Your butt is a weapon of mass destruction. For the love of God, think of the children and cork it up.

  253. #254 AFriend
    July 12, 2012

    Boy, those altie women from BCO are sure nasty – it’s a wonder anyone is game enough to post on that site.

  254. #255 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    @AFriend:

    they are far nastier than us skeptics that have been on that site for years. They are not only nasty, they are deceitful and they get away with it. You can see from Lucy’s posts the crazy making of constantly twisting the truth. Reason and logic do not exist in the alite world You can’t have a concrete and legitimate argument with them because they keep twisting and changing the premises. Think of trying to reason with a couple of dozen Lucy’s. It will drive you positively mad.

    During my 2 year self imposed altie prison sentence, I had so many people contact me and thank me for being the voice of reason. Some of them were alties and they thanked me for exposing psuedoscience and explaining it in a way that they could understand. That’s why I stayed as long as I did.
    I have been told by newly diagnosed women that vivre and lucy88 were pming them and trying to talk them out of chemo and sell them crap. This is allowed. I even seen vivre go into the stage one forums and openly try to persuade women not to get treatment. The last one I saw was stage one, her2 positive. This is accepted and encouraged. Almost every time I mentioned this my posts would be deleted. It’s up to other members to do something about it. If you email the moderators about this you will get a canned, “she’s only expressing her opinion” answer.

    I can give it right back to them but I have seen so many polite gentle people, with a science background, get humilated and leave in frustration. I have seen a woman, who is a microbiologist, told that she is ignorant and did not know how to read the studies she presented. Of course she did. Ironically it was Lucy88 that told her that she dosent know how to read studies and Maud,( whom I strongly suspect is Boudicca,) who called her ignorant. You have to be thick skinned to post on that site, that is unless you are an altie and into conspiracy theories.

    BCO is a broken site and that’s why I would like to get another website started that has no woo and is run by volunteers that are professionals in science and medicine.

  255. #256 Leah
    July 12, 2012

    I thought this discussion was going to be about Protocel. Orac you’ve yet to respond to my post.

  256. #257 KatRNagain92
    USA
    July 12, 2012

    Dear; thenewme, Orac and Black-cat. (a triliogy of personas? Oh my) Yes, I used a dimestore ruler to measure my palpable tumors but I am also having PET scans quarterly under the supervision of my Oncologist. What part of that isn’t conventional medicine? My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic, is amazed by my progress on this treatment. I am not a scam artist hawking Protocel…I stand to gain nothing.

    My dear Breast Surgeon, you are the one making the 6 (or is it 7) figure income. I on the other hand, am not (nor will I ever) make one single penny for the sale of Protocel. Not one. I will however, live and to me that is the richest payment of all.

  257. #258 Orac
    July 12, 2012

    Number one: I am not Black-cat, the newme, or anyone else on the BCO boards. I have never posted on BCO, either as Orac, my real life identity, or any other identity. In fact, it was only in the discussion threads here on my own blog that I even learned how appalling BCO’s alt-med discussion forum is; that was the first time I ever perused BCO, and I did it only briefly.. I do, however, plan on mentioning it and warning people about it in a talk I’m giving in a few hours about cancer information on the Internet, though; so I’m grateful to have learned about it.

    Second, posts revealing personal details of pseudonymous commenters on BCO have been removed. Apparently, the mods at BCO complained, but in this case I have to agree. Not to Black-cat: Stop outing posters there. I will not tolerate it. Having blogged under a pseudonym for many years, I am particularly sensitive to the issue of “outing” of pseudonymous bloggers and commenters.

    Third, you seem to think I make a lot more money than I do. Seven figures? Seriously? I don’t know a single physician who makes that much money, not even those who own businesses on the side, with the exception of alt-med docs like Dr. Mercola and Dr. Burzynski. The point is, I’m sure they exist, but they’re not common in the circles I travel in, although there are quite a few quacks who make seven figures.

    Finally, Protocel is pure quackery. There’s no valid evidence that it works. There’s no biological mechanism by which it could work; in fact the explanations for how it “works” go against well-established biology.

  258. #259 KatRNagain92
    July 12, 2012

    Again, as I did on the BCO boards, I would like to thank you for helping me get the word out that Protocel is a viable option. By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.

  259. #260 Orac
    July 12, 2012

    No, Protocel is pure quackery. It doesn’t work. That’s the message of this post.

  260. #261 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.

    That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”

  261. #262 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.

    That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”

  262. #263 JGC
    July 12, 2012

    “Protocel [if it actually worked would be] the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been [rigorously and actively pursuing] for over 40 years.”

    There, fixed that for you.

  263. #264 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    Ooops…not guilty! Even exact same time stamp.

  264. #265 Denice Walter
    July 12, 2012

    If you wonder who role models vitriolic and hateful speech concerning SBM, wonder no more : the woo-meisters I survey have an endless supply of derision put forth through internet radio, ‘documentaries’ and website blogs/ articles/ exposes. Their advocates mimic both their style and talking points. Go to Natural News Radio or the Progressive Radio Network for an audio sample.

    One of my own faves is the so-called ‘Cult of the Professional’- wherein those who study and earn degrees are revered for their achievments and regarded as experts when the entire set-up is merely a ‘fix’ by the powers-that-be to promote and substantialise their own wicked agenda.

    Yes, Uncle Rupert paid for my education and now expects RETURNs on his investment, It’s all true.

  265. #266 Shay
    July 12, 2012

    Uncle Sugar paid for mine. But I’m still waiting for my Big Pharma payoff.

  266. #267 Kay
    Canada
    July 12, 2012

    This has been interesting. I usually try to avoid train wrecks but I found myself oddly fascinated.
    Thank you, all, for having the intellectual capacity and ego integrity to withstand the unwarranted attacks on your persona.
    I understand that the people who dominate this web site are evidence based medicine supporters, and that, most of, the posters who cast aspersions are not. If I could have my way there would be no argumentum ad hominem. Alas it is difficult for most of us to remain civil while disagreeing.
    Maybe we all just need to get our chakras balanced ;)

  267. #268 thenewme
    July 12, 2012

    @katrn – your assessment of my identity is as bizarre as your assessment of protocel. I’m flattered that you’d think I’m Orac, but I’m not even in the same league as he is (cancer knowledge-wise, career-wise, and certainly not salary-wise, LOL!). I’m a real breast cancer patient who is frustrated and concerned about misinformation about alternative medicine “treatments” for breast cancer that have no basis in fact or reality.

    The fact is that YOU advertised your new website on BCO, and YOU evidently posted your real (?) name on your site and listed your occupation as “PROMOTING PROTOCEL.” You constantly refer to Protocel affiliate income network marketing scamsters in your gushing testimonials about miraculously curing yourself of stage IV breast cancer.

    Gee, I wonder why anyone might get the impression that there’s more to it than meets the eye.

    I very sincerely hope that if you are a real BC patient, that you are doing (and continue to do) as well as you claim. As a breast cancer patient myself, though, I can’t imagine why there are no evidence-based studies supporting Protocel. Is there any reason you and/or the company selling you this stuff aren’t publicizing your miraculous cure in a verifiable, legitimate medical monitoring situation? If it’s truly as great as you claim, then we all want to know about it! My life could be at stake here, and I’d love nothing more than an easy answer like this. What do you have to lose? What does the company have to hide? Why do they need to rely on (potentially) anonymous internet hucksters to become “affiliates” to sell their products?

    Also, you said, “…My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic…” Could you clarify this? Any chance your oncologist might be a “naturopathic oncologist,” rather than a licensed medical doctor?

  268. #269 thenewme
    July 12, 2012

    @Orac,
    Best of luck at TAM, and thank you SO MUCH! It’s so good to know that we breast cancer survivors/patients have a true evidence-based advocate on our side.

    Your point about personal info on pseudonymous posters is well taken and understood, but to be honest, everything that was posted here was found quickly and easily on BCO itself and Google. It’s information that the posters themselves advertise and promote, so it’s kinda disingenuous for them to turn around and pretend that they didn’t want their stuff public. Anyway, point taken.

    Oh, and sorry about your laptop, but it’s nothing that your seven-gajillion-dollar salary couldn’t easily replace, eh? LOL!

  269. #270 Thomas
    July 12, 2012

    “By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.”

    I take this response as an admission you are fully aware that Protocel is a complete crock. Thank you for your confession.

  270. #271 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    @Orac:,

    I sincerely apologize for using your blog to rant about the players on BCO. I am told that I am brutally honest even when I should not be. It was wrong of me to out people on BCO, no matter what the reason was. I know all about what happened with you when you were first outed and the sick and obviously untrue statements that were posted about you on the internet. I am thinking of one in particular but it’s too disgusting to bring up.. The AoA dirtbags calling your workplace and trying to get you fired is truly despicable. I’m glad that you were supported and given the green light to continue this blog. I am also aware of tthe other brillant blogger that was not that lucky and do think what happened to him is truly sickening. When I outed these posters from BCO, I rationalized that it was the same thing as outing quacks. One of my biggest problems with alties is the way they use idiotic rationalizations when I call them out on their crap. I see now that I was wrong and resorted to what I accusssed others of. We often accuse others of what we are guilty of ourselves. Dishonesty begins in the home. My heart was in the right place but the way I went about it was wrong.
    I ask that you please delete my rants on JoyLiesWithin. As much as I don’t care for this person, she dosent deserve what I dished out to her.

    I want to make it perfectly clear, that I nor thenewme have never claimed to be you or Stephen Barrett.. However, we have been accused of this many times. The BCO alties hatred for RI and Quackwatch is palpable. However, I have posted your blog and quackwatch articles many times on that alite boards, giving credit where credit is due. Both websites have covered every kind of quackery posted on the altie boards except drinking copious amounts of Lugols iodine to cure breast cancer. I may be overlooking it but I can’t find anything on this particular subject on either site.

    You will never convince the alties that you are not filthy rich. They are sure all oncologists are in cohots with Big Pharma and live like kings and queens in big castles. An altie asked me what the difference was between alt med practionars and oncologists getting rich off of “conventional medicine”. My reply was that oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living. The oncologists that I know work 5 days a week, 40 plus hours. I know of a 62 year old oncologist who has been practicng for 30 years. She is in her office early in the morning, even before the front office staff. Often she runs over with patients and is out of there after 6:00 pm. She uses vacation time to attend the San Antonio breast cancer symposium every year. I do not know her salary and if I were a betting woman, I would place my money on well under the 7 figure range.

  271. #272 KatRNagain92
    July 12, 2012

    Hey thanks for the tip Sybil. I did edit my occupation to reflect that I’m sharing my personal Protocel success story.

    I’m also not going to read or respond anymore to this thread. It has not been plesant to say the least.

    Kat out!

  272. #273 Chris
    July 12, 2012

    Ms. Nagain, why should we believe you?

  273. #274 MI Dawn
    July 12, 2012

    Hey, Chris – think she’s stick the flounce?

  274. #275 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    @Mi Dawn;

    What is stick the flounce, anyway? This is the second time someone posted this. I’ve never heard of it before.

  275. #276 Chris
    July 12, 2012

    “Stick the flounce” is a reference to the swirly flounce that you see when a person angrily leaves a room in a huff. And the “stick” part seems to reference the term used when a gymnast does a great dismount, as in “stick the landing.” I found this:
    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Flounce

  276. #277 Chris
    July 12, 2012

    It looks like a combination of the “stick the landing” of gymnastics, with flouncing out of the room in an angry huff.

  277. #278 lilady
    July 12, 2012

    @ Black-Cat: Jeez…get with the program :-)

    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Flounce

  278. #279 Black-cat
    LMAO
    July 12, 2012

    Lilady, thanks for the laugh. That describes every alite on BCO to a T. Every time I mentioned tone troll an altie would announce, “violation of forum rules, post reported” That person knows who she is. I just love the honesty amd freedom over here. A spade is called a spade. It’s nice to be back into the real world again where most things make sense.

    I was going to join you and Kelly over at “that wretched site of scum and quackery” two weeks ago but I ended spending the entire night with an elderly friend in the ER. who had a hypertensive crisis. I bought her an automatic B/P cuff 4 years ago and she called me and told met that her blood pressure was 210/80 and was having a terrible pressure behind her eyes and should she go back on her baby aspirin. I spent half the night convincing her to go to the ER and the other half at the ER. It wasn’t easy but I finally had to threaten her with, “If you go to bed you might not wake up and I’m calliing your daughter unless you get into the car right now.” It worked
    Needless to say I was toast the next morning and pretty much the day after. Next time.

  279. #280 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 12, 2012

    Again, as I did on the BCO boards, I would like to thank you for helping me get the word out that Protocel is a viable option. By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.

    Interesting. So, let me fill in a few inductive syllogisms:

    1) If we professed extreme acceptance of Protocel, describing it as the answer that everyone’s been searching for in the cure for cancer, Kat would surely take that as affirmation that Protocel is the ultimate anti-cancer agent. (I’ll just call it “ACBK” for now, for “anti-cancer bee’s knees.”)

    Please let us know if you dispute this, Kat.

    2) If, as we actually do, we disparage Protocel and call it a “treatment” that has no reliable evidence demonstrating that it works and no prior plausibility that would lead us to guess that it has any good chance of working, Kat takes it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.

    Since the responses we described in 1) and 2) pretty much represent the two ends of the spectrum, I think we can safely conclude by induction:

    3) No matter what we say to Kat, she will take it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.

    Now, for a general principle:

    4) In order to have any validity or be of any use, a diagnostic method must have what I will call “discriminatory response.” This means that the diagnostic method will ideally respond “true” when the underlying phenomenon is true, and “false” when the underlying phenomenon is false. The value of the diagnostic method is impaired by any deviations from this schema, to varying degrees depending on the degree and nature of the deviation.

    5) A diagnostic method which has NO discriminatory response, which always gives an identical output no matter what input is presented, has zero value.

    6) As seen in 3), Kat’s diagnostic method always arrives at the answer “Protocel is the ACBK!!” no matter what input she gets, and therefore her diagnostic method has zero value.

    Any part of this you’d like to dispute, Kat?

  280. #281 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    KatRNagain92 July 12, 10:36 am

    Again, as I did on the BCO boards, I would like to thank you for helping me get the word out that Protocel is a viable option.

    I’ve been quietly following along reading the relevent BCO threads (public forum after all) and here’s the “thanks” Kat refers to:

    You know the old adage; Bad publicity is as good as good publicity? So true.
    My gut feeling? Orac is a drone in the chemical community and if this were the 1890 she’d be tried for treason.
    Thanks for helping to get the word out…that’s what I have to say.

    Hilarious. Thanks Kat :)

  281. #282 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    @Sauceress:

    For some more laughs go to the search box on BCO and enter “Orac” or “Quackwatch”

  282. #283 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    Oh and Boudicca (July 11, 5:16 pm) your faux outrage, pearl clutching and teeth gnashing toward a metaphor is noted.

    I was initially going to dissect that sad tone trolling attempt and grade it’s elements separately however I decided that if you wish for that kind of personal attention you will definitely need to try harder.
    I’m afraid your current attempt barely reaches a pre-school level.
    If you should disagree with my assessment, then I’ll look forward to reading any further attempts you may like to offer.

  283. #284 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    Oh yes, I forgot. Gut feelings and woman’s intuition mean so much more than doctor’s opinions. Vivre constantly quotes from a book written by Christine Northrup (she’s selling this book btw) on gut feeliings. She has repeatedly posted that she spit out her cancer medication (arimidex) and threw the pill bottle across the room because her gut feeling told her to do this. After posting this for the umptemth time, another women just said that she is going to march into her oncologists office and say no to arimidex because her gut feeling is telling her not to take it.

    If I were to point this out to the mods, I would get the same canned answer, “vivre is not breaking forum rules, she is merely expressing her opinion”

    The mods do not understand the meaning of informed consent. It dosent look like the physician who runs that site does either.

    If you want more fun, search for Usana.

  284. #285 Militant Agnostic
    Where windows are cleaned by men in kilts
    July 12, 2012

    Orac is a drone in the chemical community and if this were the 1890 she’d be tried for treason.

    Could someone please translate this from whackaloon to English.

    What is “the chemical community”?

    What on earth could Orac be doing that would have been treason in 1890, but is not treason now?

  285. #286 lilady
    July 12, 2012

    “Orac is a drone in the chemical community and if this were the 1890 she’d be tried for treason.”

    Orac is a female?

  286. #287 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    They think that I am Orac because I post his blog so much.

  287. #288 lilady
    July 12, 2012

    @ Black-cat: You were missed at the Ho-Po, but there will be other times to join me there. Besides, you really did a great job caring for your friend.

  288. #289 Black-cat
    on a boring conference call that's taking forever
    July 12, 2012

    I really wasn’t kidding when I stated that the alties on BCO have spun themselves right of off this planet. They are waaaay out there still spinning.

  289. #290 Black-cat
    July 12, 2012

    Thanks, lilady. Had to prioritize. Wanted to be on that particular one, though, as it dealt with breast cancer quackery. You did a great job yourself, over on the huffpo

  290. #291 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    lilady

    Orac is a female?

    Could be. Near on impossible to determine the gender of a supercomputer posing as a plexiglass box of blinking lights.

  291. #292 Sauceress
    July 12, 2012

    What is “the chemical community”?

    Maybe that’s the one on youtube where all the elements are singing and dancing.

  292. #293 Black-cat
    July 13, 2012

    I’m still trying to figure out this one from Boudicca. I hear the art of mastering the whackaloon language from the indigenous altie BCO troll tribe is not an easy task. God knows I have tried.

    “To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach”

  293. #294 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    Way to go Kat for letting Orac’s “believers” see the truth. Protocel is saving lives!

  294. #295 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    Orac you must think MD stands for Murder Degree. You give the chemical community a bad name. Shame on you. You are a quack by your own definition.

  295. #296 Lawrence
    July 13, 2012

    @Leah – wow, at this point you aren’t even trying…..

  296. #297 Sauceress
    July 13, 2012

    My thoughts as well Lawrence. As a troll Leah makes a great sleep aid.

    @Leah
    Leah please do try to make more of an effort here.
    Your feeble trolling attempts make the inanity and arrogance of ignorance displayed by even our most clueless trolls almost seem like pearls of wisdom.
    You really are embarrassing yourself.
    Again, if you insist on trying your hand at trolling RI, please do try a little harder!

  297. #298 Sauceress
    July 13, 2012

    @Black-cat
    Thanks for the search terms. Distinctions between the patterns of unique rhetoric favoured by particular posters there continue to emerge and clarify. It’s not too hard to work out.

  298. #299 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    Orac should lose his license to practice medicine. He is too interested in being a cult leader. You vulnerable so-called science people are under his spell. You all treat his blogs like the bible and questioning what he writes is not encouraged.

    Do a search under black-cat’s name at BCO. 99% of her posts are links to Orac’s blogs and nothing else. She also rambles on and on here, talking to herself about how much she abhors those who use alternative cancer treatments and spreading gossip. Sorry those are red flags. She needs deprogramming. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks mental illness may be playing a part too.

  299. #300 JGC
    July 13, 2012

    Here’s what you don’t get, Leah: it’s not that we don’t question the opinions Orac offers or fail to be skeptical of claims he makes because we’re “under his spell”. It’s that orac eliminates the necessity to be skeptical by providing credible objective evidence in their support when he posts them. If alt med advocates would do the same –if they could offer as strong an evidence-based advocacy for their preferred alternative treatments–we’d similarly withold skepticism.

    They have not, however.

    In lieu of evidence the alt med community relies on gut feelings (aka ‘mommy instinct’), anecdotal accounts, cherry-picked articles (most often either seriously methodolically flawed or which do not in fact support their claims–see the Reiki on Dogs thread for a sterling example), individual testimonies (“After surgery and chemo I tried coffee enemas, and my cancer went away! Obviously it could only have been the coffee enemas!”), and outright lies (“MMS isn’t bleach!”)

    All seasoned with a heaping serving of paranoid conspiracy theory (“It’s a plot to reduce the world population!”, “You’re all minions of big pharma!”)

    You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.

    Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.

    Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.

  300. #301 JGC
    July 13, 2012

    Sigh–html fail.

    You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.

    Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.

    Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.

  301. #302 novalox
    July 13, 2012

    @leah

    Project much?

    But please keep entertaining us with your pathtetic attempts at ad hominem. I do need a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect dunce to provide some.

  302. #303 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    What’s ironic is that the Protocel customers are the ones who are in a cult, believing the word of some coal miner who thought up this hotplate garbage in a dream provided by a god. All that Jesus crap and “praise god who saw fit to heal me” on those websites and the belief that a god is working to heal patients is more cultlike than anything I’ve ever seen on RI.

    Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.

    And what the hell is the chemical community? Does she mean Big Pharma?

  303. #304 Gray Falcon
    July 13, 2012

    Does this help?

  304. #305 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    Somebody left an italics HTML tag open and now all the comments are in italics. Let’s see if I can fix that . Testing…

  305. #306 Gray Falcon
    July 13, 2012

    Let me try fixing it another way. I think this might work.

  306. #307 Krebiozen
    July 13, 2012

    The italic tag was closed but didn’t work. Counterintuitive, but this might work Or perhaps not.

  307. #308 Krebiozen
    July 13, 2012

    This?

  308. #309 Sauceress
    July 13, 2012

    Gotta love wordpress. I haven’t seen this happen since my time at The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster around six years back.

  309. #310 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    Maybe Protocel can cure italics? Or some MMS might work? I already tried some laetrile, so now I’m injecting baking soda into the internet. Anyone got any antineoplastons?

  310. #311 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane

    “Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.”

    You’ve got to be kidding. All chemical school does is deconstruct common sense. MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery. The zero tolerance for opposition on RI is also a joke.

    Kat had a PETscan. Because her husband’s GP advised her to try Protocel and it happened to work for her, she can start planning her life instead of her funeral.

    For those of you who are “chemo survivors”, if you keep relying on Orac’s blogs as your one-stop source of information about alternative medicine, he’ll drive you to an early grave. I’m just sayin’ don’t be so quick to drink his Kool-aid information. You don’t want to be a victim of The Orac Massacre.

  311. #312 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    July 13, 2012

    @Leah

    MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery.

    I somehow doubt that. I’d be more inclined to think that they are taught that vitamins and nutrition are essential to good health, but they are not cure-alls that can treat every ailment under the sun.

    The zero tolerance for opposition on RI is also a joke.

    What zero tolerance? I’ve seen lots of asking for evidence and none provided. See. You have an opportunity here to change people’s minds. All it takes is posting links to good-quality studies showing that Protocel is a) effective and b) safe. Instead, all we get are anecdotes, like this:

    Kat had a PETscan. Because her husband’s GP advised her to try Protocel and it happened to work for her, she can start planning her life instead of her funeral.

    So, what’s it going to be? Are you going to actually show us decent evidence that it works and is safe, or are you going to just keep slinging insults and stories around?

  312. #313 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    Just one point (I have to resist picking apart every line that Leah crapped out of her keyboard).

    Leah, you sneer at the word chemical. I presume you use it in the context of Big Pharma. Chemicals are bad, mkay. So what the hell is Protecel? Certainly not nasty chemicals, oh no.

    I will never believe a word you say if you insist on trying to convince us that a real, medical doctor (you wrote GP) advised someone to try Protocel.

    And vitamins and nutrition are not medicine. They have never cured anyone of anything.

  313. #314 Shay
    July 13, 2012

    Leah: Please provide corroboration for your claim that MD’s are being taught that nutrition is quackery. That has not been my experience as a patient since about 1989.

  314. #315 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 13, 2012

    And vitamins and nutrition are not medicine. They have never cured anyone of anything.

    Except that they have. Specifically, vitamin deficiencies (eg, scurvy) and malnutrition. But they generally don’t do very well against acute disorders, especially those with external causes (eg, infectious disease). They are a “general health” thing, rather than a treatment for disease.

  315. #316 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    July 13, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane

    And vitamins and nutrition are not medicine. They have never cured anyone of anything.

    Scurvy.

  316. #317 Thomas
    July 13, 2012

    Leah: Why does the evil, evil Orac allow you to post here? Surely, he must be terrified that your mighty blasts of truth will destroy his whole world – and yet here your posts are, while alt-med sites routinely censor any opponents who might scare off the marks. It’s an interesting pattern, isn’t it?

  317. #318 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    WKV,

    Yes, I was going to add another note saying “except malnutrtion” or vitamin deficiencies. Obviously vitamins and/or nutrition cannot cure cancer, AIDS, autism or other illnesses, which is what Leah and many alties are implying. Emphasis on the “lying” syllable.

  318. #319 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    I’m not against prescription drugs. I’m against drugs that are don’t work and come with a long list of dangerous side effects.

    Vitamins and nutrition are medicines. You can’t just swallow a bunch of pills everyday and hope for the best. What’s wrong with you people?

  319. #320 Lawrence
    July 13, 2012

    @Leah – when you claim that nutrition and vitamins can cure all, yes, that’s quackery. But, my doctor has advised good nutrition and supplements (when needed), along with exercise since I started seeing him.

    You have this very biased view of the medical professional, because you believe in the “cure-all” which doesn’t exist. If you actually spoke to a real doctor, I believe you’d find that reality if very different than your own set of very clouded beliefs.

  320. #321 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    July 13, 2012

    @Leah

    I’m against drugs that are don’t work

    Yet, here you are cheerleading for Protocel. Of course, my assessment may be incorrect. All you need to do is show me evidence to the contrary.

    come with a long list of dangerous side effects.

    All drugs have side effects, some potentially dangerous. The trick is in balancing the risks vs. the benefits. For someone without cancer, taking a cancer drug would be stupid: no benefit, lots of risks. For someone with cancer, there is risk, but greater benefit (usually…depends on the value they place on living vs. dying).

    Vitamins and nutrition are medicines.

    So you’d not object to them being regulated like medicines, then, instead of dietary supplements?

  321. #322 JGC
    July 13, 2012

    I’m not against prescription drugs. I’m against drugs that are don’t work and come with a long list of dangerous side effects.

    Which drugs are those, then, and what evidence demonstrates that they don’t work. Be as specific as possible.

    As for “long lists of dangerouse side effects”, recall that it ‘s not a question of “Are their side effects?” but “Is the potential risk greater than the ptoential beneift?”
    Consider steroids, for example: lots of frequent and nasty side effects associated with long term use. Risk versus benefit clearly argues you they shouldn’t be prescribed trivially, e.g. to improve athletic performance.

    On the other hand, if you’re thinking you might just want to hang on to that newly transplanted heart, liver or kidney for a while…

  322. #323 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    Long will be remembered the time JGC accidentally italicized the Internet.

  323. #324 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    test test test

  324. #325 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    July 13, 2012

    @Narad

    That used to happen pretty frequently over at Bad Astronomy.

  325. #326 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 13, 2012

    testtest test test

  326. #327 Redloh
    July 13, 2012

    Leah, Protocel girl isn’t real. She/he is following a clever marketing trick. Go on a forum where there are potential customers. Create a userID, a diagnosis and a sympathetic first post. Spend a little time drawing people in with your story then start proclaiming your progress. None of which anyone can verify. Slip in a website address and hope the mods dont catch you, or perhaps don’t care. At one point when the thread was fading she/he bumped it up again by whining she didn’t understand why no one seemed interested to follow her.
    The cheering squad came back. I’m sure they have all found their way to a Protocel marketing site. Amway could learn from these people or perhaps they already have.

  327. #328 MI Dawn
    July 13, 2012

    @Redloh: It’s not important if Leah is real or not. All we care about is if she can prove what she says. She can’t. All she has is anecdotes. If people come to RI, read the whole thread and STILL spend their money on the quackery….well, I feel sorry for them. But adults can do as they wish, even if it’s not an intelligent choice.

  328. #329 MI Dawn
    July 13, 2012

    dang, my attempt at killing the italic thread failed. Guess we’ll have to wait for Orac to fix it.

    I love the people who claim we are brainwashed, undissenting, etc. They’ve obviously never been around when PC vs Mac is discussed…..

  329. #330 Militant Agnostic
    Where windows are cleaned by men in kilts and irony meters are made of real iron
    July 13, 2012

    @leah

    Vitamins and nutrition are medicines. You can’t just swallow a bunch of pills everyday and hope for the best.

    You owe me a new irony meter.

  330. #331 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    What you’ve got is <i><b><i /></b>. The (autogenerated?) third tag is the problem; nonvoid tags aren’t self-closing, so this is treated as yet another open ital.

  331. #332 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    @Redloh
    Kat is not some random poster. She has been a BCO member since 2010. Go back and read her posts.

    What’s great is her MO wants to continue to track her progress. Unlike a certain breast surgeon whose name rhymes with “quack”, Kat’s MO is at least keeping an open mind and is not in denial, pretending that Protocel doesn’t work.

  332. #333 Mrs Woo
    July 13, 2012

    The whole attempt to kill the italics (especially with MMS, laetrile, baking soda and antineoplastons) gave me the best laugh all day!

    @Leah – one thing I learned years ago with the internet is that people can be whomever they want and do whatever they want. Once I was diagnosed with a difficult to treat and disabling illness, Mr Woo was on the internet buying every cure he could find. Thank goodness that I got him to at least slow down after awhile.

    It isn’t wrong to ask for studies. Studies are a good thing. Human beings have issues with being easily gullible. You don’t want hope and suggestibility playing a part in results. That is what double-blinding is all about.

    I know this is an anecdote, but you love them, so, maybe you will be swayed. A woman with my illness launched her own radio show, etc., pushing an alkaline, juicing/veggie smoothie diet as a cure for our illness. She had a FB page that she ended up deleting when she realized she got too many questions on it – she was honest about going to bed three days here, four days there because she was too sick to function. People had trouble believing her juicing/smoothie diet was making her better if she was sick so much.

    Long story short, that was two years ago. Not only did it not cure her; her daughter, who I’m sure was also converted to her ultimately perfectly healthy lifestyle, died of cancer. She no longer pushes that “cure” for anyone. Instead she recommends a much more reasonable, science-based diet that includes meats that are grass-fed, free range chicken/eggs, etc., avoiding large quantities of processed foods, adding moderate exercise, and never giving up trying various treatment modalities and maintaining hope. I am not sure if she still does her internet radio show or not. If she does, I hope it reflects a similar amount of moderation now.

    When I was a child I was taught never to trust anyone who said they could cure anything, or who told me I could get tons of money only working a few hours a week, etc. There is no product on earth that will cure all diseases. Our bodies don’t work that way. There’s also no entry-level job on earth that has no requirements for education, etc., where you can walk in and make $200,000/year working 10 hours a week.

    Some of us abandon wishful thinking and the strange beliefs as we grow up. It’s better to be in the real world in have hope that has percentages and experience behind it than chasing a fantasy that does nothing for us.

  333. #334 Mrs Woo
    *wishing for preview function, just like so many others
    July 13, 2012

    *…to be in the real world and have hope that has…

  334. #335 JK
    July 13, 2012

    I’ve been a lurker @ BCO for a while (I’m a BC patient), and one here for a shorter period.

    While I am grateful for some of the information I’ve found on BCO, I am repulsed by the altie forums, by the way they are (not) managed, and by the viciousness and immaturity of many of the regulars. Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and others: I came here, not to BCO, to say thank you. Black-cat, you confirmed much of what I suspected some of the backstories and identities are. And I really enjoyed your “how-to-be-a-quack” post.

    Orac, thank you for your insolence and your care, and for providing room for us.

  335. #336 AFriend
    July 13, 2012

    Now there’s another altie on BCO going to start Protocel and PawPaw since her previous alternative treatment has caused more positive lymph nodes. Surgery anyone? How stupid can some people be. If she had had chemo in the first place she probably wouldn’t be in this situation.

  336. #337 AFriend
    July 13, 2012

    Leah – “MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery”
    My onc must be an alternative doc since he makes me take supplements.

  337. #338 followerfrombco
    Ilinois
    July 13, 2012

    Anybody know what happenend to Chillipad2, the black salve lady? I would ask on the other site but might be accused of being anti-alternative for even asking. I think the “tumors” that were coming out were just scabs from injury from the black stuff, and the Juices oozing were just pus from the inflammation/infection with the black stuff. If I wrote that, I would be accused of being a troll.

  338. #339 Rose
    In a place where words mean what they say
    July 13, 2012

    I have been skeptical of Protocel lady from the getgo. All anybody but Kat knows is that she said she measured her nodes and they decreased in size and that she had a really great CT scan Oh and she said her onc is impressed.
    Now when my boys were teenagers I used to tell them that girls they met on the internet could be 40 year old men. Anybody can SAY what they want.
    Where is the proof?
    As for MDs and nutrition, in the last five years 3 doctors have given me nutritional advice. That is met with skepticism by the alties on bco but Kat’s magical shrinking lumps are not. Go figure.

  339. #340 Redloh
    July 13, 2012

    @followerfrombco

    Questions were being asked about whether this person would submit this stuff she called tumors falling off her body to a pathologist through the onc she claimed was monitoring her but who she ultimately said she was too tired to see anymore.

    As with many of these types suddenly she feels the questions amount to being bullied and moves on to greener pastures.
    I believe this person was a front for the website she posted. A website selling black salve. I think it was in Indonesia.

  340. #341 AFriend
    July 13, 2012

    I don’t think Chilli was fake – she was in a terrible place after having gone the alternative route – I guess she had to try something as conventional docs offer her no hope. She is a great example of how alternatives DO NOT work. She had been posting for a long time before she started talking about the Black Salve.

  341. #342 Black-cat
    home from work
    July 13, 2012

    Chilli is real I exchanged pms with her. She was way too detailed and accurate not to be. I knew her from impositive’s “cancer is a fungas” thread two years ago. She did try to warn impositive and wornoutmom of what happened to hear when she tried alternatives. I was not aware at the time she was an MLMer and had a website announcing how she cured herself with natural methods. I felt bad for lettng her know that black salve was a scam but it had to be done. I felt a moral obligation to do so. So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, yes you were right on that assumtion of me. You, on the other hand seem to be morally and ethically bankrupt. What kind of person would cheer a stage one person on not to get evidence based medicine over some pipe dream, and not only hide the fact that this said woman progressed to stage four, but would actually make a statement on the BCO atie forum that this women is doing just fine and dandy. Especially when this women iis very sick and in trouble. I would think a reasonable and rational person at this point would intervene and help her. You, however ignored her (giving her a shout out on BCO when I already made this clear dosent count) This makes you look like a real dirtbag. I suggest you take that finger you are pointing and point it right back at yourself. What’s that sayiny? For every finger you point there are 3 pointing right back at you. I would think a reasonable and rational person would do a 180 after that one experience and would not only start looking at evidenced based treatment but trying to counsel her abandoned friend on said treatment ESPECIALLY if SHE, herself, had evidence based treatment that put her cancer in remission. But you are not a reasonable and rationable person are you?

    Furthermore. you continue to be the residient tone troll on the altie boards of BCO doing everything in your power to bash evidenced based medicine and prove alternative works. IMHO, you are a moral degenerate.

    Do you see yourself as a soldier in the health freedom war. Do you rationalize that your ex buddy impositive, wornoutmom, and chilli are all acceptable casualties of this war? Please tell me, because trying to figure this out has kept me awake at night.

  342. #343 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    @Rosemary, just so you know, Protocel is not for those who are her2 +. You posted pictures of yourself on BCO. I have to be honest, you look really pasty and in poor shape. That’s probably why no one believes you were given advice about nutrition from your doctors. The truth is your cardiologist and oncologist referred you to a dietitian after your treatments. However, if you had a naturopathic doctor advising you throughout your treatments, your body wouldn’t be such a wreck now and your treatments would not have nearly killed you. But noooooo, Orac said, “naturopathic doctors are just quacks”, and being the loyal follower that you are, you believed him.

    @Redloh, it’s too bad Chilli left. If black-cat did not have a such a horrible melt down after Chilli posted about the success she was having with the black slave protocol, we’d know how she is doing today. I just hope and pray that black-cat didn’t push her off the edge and she is still alive.

    @AFriend, the person you are referring to was not a good candidate for chemo. She has a neurological condition.
    The vast majority of the women who turn to alternative cancer treatments do so because either 1) surgery alone is enough and they have found safer options, 2) conventional medicine has failed them, 3) another medical condition is stopping them from doing chemotherapy and/or radiation, or 4) they are terrified that conventional medicines will take their lives. Too add, the overwhelming number of distressing discussions about vomiting, bloody teeth, uterine cancer, fibroids, mouth sores, loss of libido, hearing loss, severe depression, neuropathy, heart attacks etc. on BCO’s conventional medicine threads is enough to scare the dickens out of anyone and send them running to the alternative forum, so members are truly grateful it’s available. It’s mainly those who work in the medical field, however, who wish it would be torn down. They hate the “alties”, the same way the devil hates holy water. Eventually they’ll wake up and figure out that we are not the enemy.

  343. #344 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    @black-cat , wornoutmom has posted that her alt treaments are working like a charm. You’ve seen her videos. She looks amazing. Your missinformation is getting so old and tired. (((((YAWN)))))

  344. #345 Thomas
    July 13, 2012

    Leah: you still haven’t explained why the pro-health blogs allow “alties” to post here.

  345. #346 Black-cat
    July 13, 2012

    Wornoutmom is stage 4 and getting Herceptin and Zometa before she visits that crazy cocaine addicted quack, Thomas Lodi. The evidence based medicine that she is taking cancels out any claim for the “alternative cure”. She hasen’t updated her blog in a month. It’s really sad for us to see that but you in your infinite wisdom just know she’s cured.

  346. #347 Chemmomo
    Please don't rely on spell check
    July 13, 2012

    Leah @July 13, 9:39 pm
    There’s no preview function here. That means you need to proof read for yourself.

  347. #348 Mrs Woo
    July 13, 2012

    “…or 4) they are terrified that conventional medicines will take their lives. Too add, the overwhelming number of distressing discussions about vomiting, bloody teeth, uterine cancer, fibroids, mouth sores, loss of libido, hearing loss, severe depression, neuropathy, heart attacks etc. on BCO’s conventional medicine threads is enough to scare the dickens out of anyone and send them running to the alternative forum, so members are truly grateful it’s available. It’s mainly those who work in the medical field, however, who wish it would be torn down. They hate the “alties”, the same way the devil hates holy water. Eventually they’ll wake up and figure out that we are not the enemy.”

    I am blessed, obviously. My aunt is at this point a three-year survivor of breast cancer after conventional therapy. Her husband is a four-year-survivor of a more aggressive prostate cancer after conventional therapy. My mother-in-law is an almost two-year survivor of lymphoma after conventional therapy, and on the non-survivor side where I knew a lot about their therapies, Mr Woo’s father survived more than ten years with treatment after a leukemia diagnosis (he decided to end treatment when his disease got too bad) and a good friend of mine from church with a particularly nasty type of prostate cancer (had a perfectly normal PSA screening two months earlier, then suddenly was very sick and they found advanced prostate cancer with bone mets and a very high PSA number) lived for two years after a stage-IV diagnosis with no surgery.

    They all used scientifically sound, evidence-based treatments. And though they had their bad days (for my mother-in-law, the first two days after each treatment; when they did further tests on her cancer it wouldn’t respond to the newer monoclonal antibody treatments so they had to use older types of chemo; I was very disappointed for her), most were grateful for the time they got and knowing that there was evidence as to how likely they were to have the treatment work and that there was an educated person watching their treatment, their bodies’ reactions and adjusting and changing the treatment as necessary to give them the best chance they could.

    I am probably also lucky to have a chronic, difficult to treat illness and have been around with it long enough to know that usually the people who are most vocal are also the ones who are most miserable. You don’t “see” the people who are coping because they are too busy coping and living life to complain about how miserable they are on the internet. People newly diagnosed or newly starting treatment will go to support forums to ask questions and discuss their problems to get insight on treatments they could add to treat bad side effects, reactions, etc. Also to get good information from other patients on other treatments they might not have heard of.

    Sadly, “alties” tend to not just say, “this is another treatment, discuss it with your doctor and see if it is compatible or an alternative. No, they say things like, “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor doesn’t want you to know about it because big pharma actually owns them and if it were to compete with them it would drive them out of business” if they are on the “conspiracy” side of life, or “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor was never taught about it in medical school because medical school curricula are written by drug companies to sell their products” – it makes the doctors at least sound a bit nicer – then they’re just uninformed idiots and not intentionally poisoning and killing every patient they come in contact with when the “cure” has been readily available all this time.

    Yes, people who believe in evidence, people who believe in science-based medicine, will challenge anything that has nothing that is known to affect any type of treatment for anything. I’m also known to challenge other things, like DH’s suggestion that we buy a magnetic water softener since it won’t use salt. Nothing I know suggests that magnetic fields will change the structure of water and/or affect whether or not it is “hard” or “soft.”

    Love the “same way the devil hates holy water” – the deeper implications that the people who insist on treatments that are proven to work are evil and the people insisting that rubbing black salve that has been known to melt off people’s noses on a cancer patient’s breasts will draw out and kill the cancer are saints.

    I’m neither evil nor sainted. I am, however, someone who gets frustrated watching unscrupulous people prey on the fear of patients, take their money and leave them sicker than they were when they started. People at least deserve to have informed, realistic consent and a treatment that has a chance to help them provided by a provider who understands the human body, disease and the way the treatment works.

  348. #349 Leah
    July 13, 2012

    @black-cat, please read carefully and get your facts straight. wornoutmom had IPT and Herceptin. Go back and read her thread and blog. Be happy for her. She is doing great. Dr, Lodi cleaned up the mess conventional medicine left behind.

    Apr 28, 2012 01:51 PM, by wornoutmom

    “As those who have followed me know I had horrible health care that left me riddled with fear. After being misdiagnoed I still tried surgery with my providers which was a disaster. 3 weeks after surgery my lump returned. I was told it was scar tissue. I had so many mistakes on my case it lead to an 8 page complaint letter of these mistakes. I literally had to take an anti-anxiety medication just to walk through the doors. I can’t go into specifics at this time. I plan to fully do this once the matter is resolved. So fast forward and low and behold that lump was a reoccurance. My lump was in the chest wall which I have since learned from other patients with the same lump there are doctors who refuse to perform sugery without treatment first as it is to hard to get clear margins. This is why I think my biggest mistake given my type of tumor was to have surgery. I spent more than two years on birth control pills with cancer and it only spread to 3A. A few months later I saw the results of my surgery.

    After several complaints I finally got a PET scan. I had a reoccuance in the exact same spot which I believe was the “scar tissue”. I had a tumor on my spine, innumerable bone mets, widespread lymph nodes, and in one month with tykerb and tamoxifen it had traveled to my liver. Due to fear I only trusted them to prescribe pills. I arrived at my clinic in Sept 1 and received care until the end of Dec. I was on a scaled down plan due to finances. On Dec 8th I had a follow up PET scan. With a full head of hair and no suffering or effects it revealed that all my lymph nodes were clear, both tumors were gone, the liver was clear, and a significant decrease in my bone mets! NO sufferering,…”

  349. #350 Mrs Woo
    I want preview back!
    July 13, 2012

    Now I did it. I didn’t close blockquote!

  350. #351 Mrs Woo
    July 13, 2012

    Did it work?

  351. #352 AFriend
    July 13, 2012

    @Leah – wornoutmom is probably doing well because of the herceptin, nothing else. I do know other ladies whose mets have responded just as well and are NED from herceptin.

  352. #353 AFriend
    July 13, 2012

    and if she had had the proper treatment in the first place, she probably wouldn’t have ended up stage IV

  353. #354 Black-cat
    July 13, 2012

    The last time wornoutmom posted on her blog was may 2. She is getting Herceptin and Zometa at a real medical clinic with real physicians. Afterwards she goes to Lodi’s “Oasis of Hope” for IPT, Ozone therapy and vitamin C infusions.

    She can no longer afford Vitamin C infusions so she must resort to buying cheaper compounded sublingual vitamin C from the clinic. She has very painful ulcers in her mouth from this. The infusions were $1,000 a week.

    You neglected to include this statement from her on that pet scan:

    “Next he explained that my bones still had to many spots to count but that there was a significant decrease in the amount of cancer cells. He explained that they are harder to get to than tumors as they are out in the open and it would take a little more time.”

    You and I get 2 different meanings from her blog. I see a 37 year old woman with a young family that may be stage four because she waited too long to get treatment. It’s impossible to say. She has young childen and is really sick now. Cancer has broken one of the vertebrae in her back and she is in a lot of pain. She regrets that she cannot hold her child. She thinks that she has failed as a mother because she can not properly care for her children.

    I was going to write more but it’s time to step away from the computer. It took me 3 tries even to get through her blog.

    Oh, I would not be dissing on anyone’s looks chubby.

  354. #355 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    I have to add that wornoutmom has not failed as a mother. Being sick is not her fault. She did not do anything to cause this her breast cancer. Just had to come back and write that.

  355. #356 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    I hit the submit button too soon. From what I read, wornoutmom is a superb mother. Bad mothers don’t worry about failing their children.

  356. #357 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    I’m sorry black-cat and motheroffoursons. If wornoutmom had relied on conventional treatments alone, her children would have no mom and she’d just be a statistic.

    Also, re-read her posts, watch her videos, and stop seeing only what you want to see. Your posts make no sense at all.

    Black-cat, you can’t just pull figures out your bum bum. Vitamin C infusions do not cost $1000 per week.

    Wornoutmom is doing great and Dr.Lodi is an angel for doing what he does best. That’s cleaning up the train wreck that breast surgeons and oncologists leave behind.

    This thread is getting silly and I have work to do. Thanks Orac for letting me post on RI. Take care black-cat and be good to yourself and others. I’m out.

  357. #358 Narad
    July 14, 2012

    I’m out.

    I’ll take the under.

  358. #359 Chris
    July 14, 2012

    By the way, I noticed the italic thing happen at Dr. Novella’s blog, Neurologica:
    http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/facial-processing/

  359. #360 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Is Leah talking about Thomas Lodi? The homeopath? The cokehead? the doctor who threatens bloggers? The guy who uses dangerous and useless insulin treatments? The guy who had his medical license stripped away in Nevada? This Dr. Lodi?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/02/a-homeopathic-physician-in-arizona-vs-science/

  360. #361 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    yep, the one and only

  361. #362 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    And cancer patients would rather trust this criminal than real doctors and real medicine?

    Bet he’s getting richer than Orac selling his witchcraft. Protocel is one thing, but homeopathy?! Sheesh! You gotta’ draw the line somewhere…

    That was a feeble joke. Protocel is just as useless as homeoquackery or “energy healing”. That insulin protocol also looks very suspicious. Never tested, no trials, no evidence, no interest. Sounds familiar?

  362. #363 lilady
    July 14, 2012

    It seems that way, Marc. Hard to believe that this drug addict who lost his Medical license is now “practicing” on patients.

  363. #364 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    @marc: I posted wornoutmoms blog on this site and it is still up. She’s seeing Lod and if you read her blog you will see what a real heartless scumbag he is. Warning: have some tissues handy.

  364. #365 AFriend
    July 14, 2012

    Black cat – I sent you a PM on BCO

    @Leah – wornoutmom delayed having conventional treatment and went ot stage IV very quickly.

  365. #366 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 14, 2012

    I’m sorry black-cat and motheroffoursons. If wornoutmom had relied on conventional treatments alone, her children would have no mom and she’d just be a statistic.

    And once again, Leah “argues” by claiming to know things that she cannot possibly know. Anyone in the world can claim “Why, if something that didn’t happen had happened, the consequences would have been thus and such, which would have wholly supported my view over yours!”

    I realize the chances of Leah sticking the flounce are low (isn’t this her second flounce?) but I hope she follows through this time: her posts aren’t even intelligent enough for refuting them to have much educational value.

  366. #367 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    There were a whole series of comment on BCO about how wornoutmom was going for treatment but couldn’t say where. I do not know why.
    Now Dr Burzynski is referred to as Dr B because of the “controversy” regarding his treatment. I guess they are trying to stay under the radar of the search function.

  367. #368 Lawrence
    July 14, 2012

    @Rose – the hope is the TX Medical Board will finally shut him down, though I would expect, should that happen, that he would just head over the border and set up shop in Mexico…..

  368. #369 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    @Lawrence
    My hope also.
    Conventional treatments do work, says the five year survivor who swims laps and kayaks and keeps up with nine grandchlidren under he age of 7 (usually only 3-6 of them at a time) oh, and works full time. I know they work because of the research articles my oncologist gave me when I was diagnosed. .

  369. #370 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @Rosemary

    The B9 lump you found in “the good breast” a weeks ago is a major warning sign. I hope you recognize the seriousness of HER2+ and learn to put down the cakes and chocolates and make healthier choices. Relying only on bias chemical studies is not smart.

    It was really nice of you to buy the kayak for your DH though, and glad to see you’re swimming and getting in touch with nature. I love to swim too.

  370. #371 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 14, 2012

    Relying only on bias chemical studies is not smart.

    Yeah, ’cause it’s far smarter to rely on a chemical like Protocel which is sold through MLM without any studies verifying that survival of people who take it is anything other than coincidence. Pfft.

    Anyone want to take bets on how many more flounces Leah will fail to stick?

  371. #372 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Lawrence (and anyone else who might know):

    The last I heard, the April hearings in Texas against Stan were postponed to June 27. I’ve been looking everywhere for some follow-up but couldn’t find any. Since Burzynski’s name came up here, I thought I’d mention it in case someone can check into it.

    I doubt if he’ll go to Mexico: he and his wife are in the mid-70s and live in a $6 million house in a gated community in Houston. Stan’s son, a newly-minted MD since last year, will probably just take over the shop of horrors after Stan “retires”.

  372. #373 Mrs Woo
    July 14, 2012

    I always wish that it was easier to remove these hucksters from “practice.” It seems they always find a way to get around things.

    DanielChapterOne is another really nasty bit of work. They are supplement manufacturers who run a radio show diagnosing and treating every illness under the sun with their supplements. An FTC ruling made them send out letters telling people their claims were unfounded and unresearched, etc., which they finally did after a year of court appeals. They were also told they could no longer have people call in and then tell them what supplements to take to “cure” them.

    They worked around that by having existing customers already using the prescribed products that had their now banned literature call in on their 800 number and offer “advice and anecdotes” about their own experiences with the products… i.e., someone calls in and says that their mother is having side effects they don’t like with her blood pressure and statin medications. The owners of the supplement manufacturing company then say, “Can anyone out there who believes in health freedom share their experiences about what may help?”

    Then a “client” (who knows if they even are, or just employees who are prepared with scripts and instructions) calls in and explains that all doctor prescribed medications are dangerous chemicals and tells them the “all natural” (therefore, obviously harmless?) supplements to order and take instead, as well as advising them to “quit the poison” because it will interfere with their healing.

    Their practice includes cancer, where they recommend things like shark cartilage supplements, a supplement smoothie mix (they recommend that to everyone and it costs nearly $200/month to use it as directed), etc.

    Drives me nuts – the whole time the show is going on they are reading stories that create distrust of medicine and pharmaceuticals, of course… they are the only authority that has the patient (er um customer?)’s best interest at heart.

    Hmmm… doctors don’t get a dime off of the medications they prescribe me. Daniel Chapter One, though, makes a profit. Conflict of interest?

  373. #374 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Mrs Woo,

    I did spend some time at the DC1 wesbsite a few weeks ago, and beside all the ludicrous medical woo woo they are working it from a religious angle, claiming “persecution” for their beliefs when challenged by the law. I thought they were going to intentionally defy some court order to create an issue. Didn’t the leader publicly burn some legal documents in contempt?

    This is kind of what Jim “not so” Humble did, and is definitely what L. Ron Hubbard did with $cientology. Once you’re a “religion” you can cry discrimination whenever you need to, and you can ignore laws most everybody else follows.

  374. #375 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Humble calls his treatments “sacraments”, if you’ve ever wandered over to the Genesis Church II scam he set up to peddle MMS. There are no fees per se in $cientology, but every cent handed over is considered a “donation”.

    Real religion is bad enough, but then you get these guys who huddle under the umbrella of religion to get away with murder. Sometimes literally.

  375. #376 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Marc Stephens
    Re: “And cancer patients would rather trust this criminal than real doctors and real medicine?”

    Yeah, but even worse, IMO, is their recruiting efforts on cancer patient support forums like BCO in order to send along more victims…errr…I mean patients, maybe in return for that week’s infusion, or maybe for a few affiliate bucks to supplement the bake sales, yard sales, poker tournaments, and other types of fundraisers they promote to pay for the “treatment.”

    To me, it’s heartbreaking and tragic for the patient herself. But when she goes on to recruit other victims by singing their praises and misleading others, it’s a HUGE line she’s crossed.

    I’m waiting, too, for news about Burzynski (Dr. B, or “The Good Doctor.”).

  376. #377 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @MrsWoo,
    That sounds exactly like the kinds of posts that bother me on BCO. The conspiracy stuff. The “I don’t sell it (directly) but I’ll tell you how miraculous it is and where to buy it…” The Health Freedom stuff. The testimonials. The “poor little persecuted me” stuff.

    ACK. It’s way too early on Saturday to be this riled up!

  377. #378 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @JK – you’re welcome! (And thanks!)

  378. #379 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Have you ever read up about Mannatech? The manufacturer isn’t allowed to say it cures cancer, but they get their “independent retailers” (it’s a MLM scheme, like Amway) to say it discreetly or hint at it . “It’s helped other people with cancer…” is what they say.

    There have been hidden camera exposes of Mannatech sellers at town hall meetings or “health expos” claiming it can cure cancer, and lots more, but as long as the company itself doesn’t make the claim, they can wash their hands of any wrongdoing on the part of their resellers. “Hey, we can’t responsible for what our retailers are telling people.” Is that what’s called plausible deniability?

    The product in question (I forget the actual name) is just a form of sugar.

  379. #380 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    Thenewme
    It is no longer morning here but I think I will tend to my knitting (actually sewing).. It is a much too beautiful Saturday to be thinking about people who only see others as sources of income.

  380. #381 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    The sugar stuff from Mannatech is called Ambrotose. I think Oprah or one of the network news magazine shows did a profile of a cancer patient who eschewed conventional care in favour of Ambrotose. It just “felt right” to her. She ended up writing a defensive letter to all the critics explaining that she knows what she’s doing and please leave her alone to make her own choices. I think there was also a religious angle.

    Here’s what Wikipedia says about the company’s deceptive practices:

    ABC investigation

    A 20/20 undercover investigation that aired June 1, 2007 on ABC Television showed Mannatech’s sales associates teaching sales recruits how to target Mannatech products to patients with specific illnesses in a manner that purportedly does not violate U.S. federal law, including U.S. Food and Drug Administration regulations, by avoiding direct claims that the products cure any particular diseases.[13] Mannatech CEO Sam Caster was interviewed for the show and told 20/20 that Mannatech makes no specific health claims about its products. “I don’t think dietary supplements treat, cure, mitigate anything. It is not meant to substitute a doctor’s oversight, but it plays an important role in the whole health equation.”[36]

  381. #382 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @trini gyul (thenewme)

    Allyuh too dotish.You luv too much commess. Protocel doh work fah triple negative (or HER2+) breast cancer. Tell yah fren Rosemary dat.

  382. #383 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Rose, you’re right. I have tons to do!
    @Marc, yup. Mannatech is discussed there too, but at least on BCO, Usana and Neways are more miraculous (profitable?)

  383. #384 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Leah,
    HUH???

  384. #385 lilady
    July 14, 2012

    Leah:

    Why don’t you get your own blog…instead of clogging up this one, which is hosted by a breast cancer surgeon and breast cancer researcher.

    I suggest we ignore the sockies who are trying to take over this blog.

  385. #386 Militant Agnostic
    July 14, 2012

    @Mark Stevens is Insane on Mannatech

    (it’s a MLM scheme scam, like Amway)

    FTFY

  386. #387 Lawrence
    July 14, 2012

    @MSII – I find it very ironic that these “naturalists” have no problem supporting the clear-cutting of the rain forests or mass-killings of multiple shark species to support their natural remedies, but when Pharmaceutical companies are able to actual synthesize the stuff the works, all of a sudden, it is bad?

    I will never get these people, and never even want to try.

  387. #388 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Here’s part of the ABC 20/20 transcript of the Ambrotose expose. Notice you can substitute any quackery (MMS, Protocel, baking soda, etc.) for the Ambrotose and the story is very familiar.

    “Is this truly a grass-roots, word-of-mouth miracle? Can a nutritional supplement actually cure cancer?

    Angie Rhoads is betting her life that it can.

    Most people would say that Rhoads has had the most horrible luck in the world. The 22-year old lost her mother to a hemorrhage and her father to a fast-growing brain tumor. Then last year, as she was about to graduate from a college in the Midwest, doctors discovered that she too had a brain tumor. Rhoads’ classmates rallied around her and raised the money for an operation.

    “You know how everyone says, ‘Well, it’s not brain surgery?’ I’m like, well, yeah it is,” said Rhoads.

    Surgeons got almost all of the tumor, but were forced to leave two areas behind to avoid paralyzing her. Rhoads’ oncologist told her she stood a good chance if she underwent an immediate course of radiation and chemotherapy.

    But Rhoads had a different idea. She had heard from a friend and from testimonials that Mannatech’s Ambrotose would make her cancer go away, without the terrible side effects of drugs and radiation. She turned down the doctor’s recommendation in favor of a sugar pill.

    She said her doctors were not pleased with her decision. “They pretty much said, ‘If you were my daughter you would be doing chemo and radiation,’” said Rhoads.

    Rhoads explained that she and one of her doctors agreed that she can always start chemo and radiation later if her cancer starts to grow, but for now she is sticking with Ambrotose.

    Although she would never counsel others to forgo medical treatment, Rhoads believes so much in Ambrotose that she even began going on cancer survivor Web sites to recommend it to other cancer patients.”

    The full transcript, incliuding the lies their sales people are trained to tell:

    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3228488&page=1

  388. #389 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Lawrence,
    LOL! There’s a huge 300+ page thread called “natural girls” on the breast cancer support forum, where the alties discuss all their “natural” treatments like coffee enemas, supplements by the bucketsful, bioidentical hormone therapy, oil pulling, topical and oral iodine for breast cancer, baking soda-maple syrup recipes, etc.

    Natural??? LOL

  389. #390 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    How do they even know the manufacturer really puts shark cartilage in there? Supplements have no regulations, so maybe it’s really just a goldfish fin. Or no fins at all.

    Can vegetarians and vegans take shark cartilage? Inquiring minds want to know.

    thenewme: what’s oil pulling? I know about all the other crap but that one is new to me. Looks like Mr. Google and I will spend some time together.

  390. #391 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    Re: “Although she would never counsel others to forgo medical treatment, Rhoads believes so much in Ambrotose that she even began going on cancer survivor Web sites to recommend it to other cancer patients.”

    AAAACCCCKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!
    I’m truly stunned how common this is, though, and never would have believed it if I hadn’t seen it for myself.

  391. #392 JudicePrudence
    July 14, 2012

    Kat’s husband is also promoting protocel.

  392. #393 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    Oil pulling – you know, sucking oil constantly through your teeth for a half hour instead of brushing your teeth, to remove ….. TOXINS!

    You know, one of those miraculous cancer-curing (or is it cancer-preventing?) treatments! Especially effective if done while “tapping” your meridians, followed up with a baking soda-syrup green smoothie, and then meditating with a coffee enema in place and a tinfoil beanie firmly in place.

  393. #394 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    thenewme:

    Here’s the rebuttal from Angie Rhoads to the 20/20 piece. She defends her decision to use Ambrotose, and claims she was set up by 20/20. Of course at the end we get all the religious woo.

    http://theroadtoemmaus.org/EM/Fox/MTech/AngieRhoads.pdf

  394. #395 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @thenewme, I’m glad you’re making a real effort to get back to your island roots and become a “natural girl”.

    Alternative Forum
    Jun 13, 2012 10:11 PM thenewme wrote:

    “..Yes, I’ve read about diet with regards to TNBC, and I do consider it very useful and (dare I say it…?) proven. I’m also in the ENERGY clinical trial, in which the aim is to investigate the effects of healthy diet, exercise, and lifestyle on recurrence.”

    Tell the other followers more about your new natural regimen. Enquiring minds want to know.

  395. #396 Agashem
    on the edge of the Canadian Shield
    July 14, 2012

    Is anyone else confused? I can’t tell what is being said by Leah and the responses by thenewme are not clear to me either.
    Marc Stevens, you are also a Canadian, can you help?

  396. #397 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Marc – yep, looks like her rebuttal is straight out of the playbook!

    @Leah, I believe you have me confused with someone else with the moniker “thenewme.” I guess your Google skills need refinement. I don’t know her from Adam, but your derogatory comments are pretty racist and inappropriate, IMHO.

    In any case, the post you quoted above IS mine. I’m not sure what more you want to know. Yep, diet is especially important for TNBC (triple neg), and we don’t have any hormonal or other options beyond surgery/rads/chemo, like other subtypes do.

    All my doctors (oncologist, radiologist, primary care doc, even my kids pediatrician) understand and promote/discuss the importance of a healthy diet, exercise, and other lifestyle choices in everyone, not just cancer patients. That’s not alternative! It’s just plain common sense and good advice.

    I was randomized into the “less intense” arm of the ENERGY trial, which I was disappointed about, but I do think the trial has great goals, and it sure goes against the common altie cry of “nobody ever studies or promotes nutrition/exercise/etc!” Again, I’m not sure what your point is.

  397. #398 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Agashem,
    Sorry. I’m kind of confused too! I’m happy to clarify anything unclear about my responses.

    I’m not sure who Leah is or what she’s trying to do here, other than discredit me, which (hopefully) isn’t working, since I have nothing to hide or discredit!

  398. #399 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 14, 2012

    Agashem,

    The trouble is we’re still in italic hell so it’s hard to blockquote or identify quotes within a post. I am as confused as you sometimes about who is saying what.

    Leah did post one comment that wasn’t even English. I think she was trying to make some point. If so, it didn’t work.

  399. #400 MI Dawn
    July 14, 2012

    Why, Leah…it almost sounds like thenewme (gasp!) talked to her doctor!!!!!! Every doctor I know of recommends diet, exercise and other lifestyle changes for good health and to help,treat health problems. Why, my own doctor made me wait 2 whole years before putting me on blood pressure medication, having me lose weight, decrease the salt in my diet, etsc.

    I was so annoyed, and couldn’t believe he refused to give me evil medications.

    /snark

  400. #401 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    So, I am not the only one whose MD talked to them about nutrition. Not a dietician, an MD. In my case 3 different MDs for 3 different issues. That is because good diet is common sense and good medicine, not alternative medicine. I limit salt and foods that cause migraines. i don’t follow the diet I was given for high cholesterol because my ratio was 2.1 the last time it was tested
    I have a hard time understanding some of the posts too.

  401. #402 Rae
    Reality
    July 14, 2012

    @Marc Stephems

    Note that the Angie Rhods story is five years old. Looks like this is the current story:

    http://www.headforthecure.org/columbia-mo/keeping-faith/angie-rhoads

    Very sad that she’s now facing another brain surgery, no thanks to Ambrotose

  402. #403 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @thenewme, I know exactly who you really are. You are pretty and smart. You are not the mean-spirited, ignorant ugly person you pretend to be on these forums. I just think it’s sad that you are trying so hard to be someone that you are not, and I can’t figure out why. The fact that you feel the need to downplay your excitement of the ENERGY study and deny your heritage, speaks volumes about your character and the power of groupthink.

    @marc, what I posted is an English dialect. thenewme is Indo-Trinidadian. The language is highly flexible and absorbs vocabulary from British English. If you read it slowly, you’ll figure out what every words means. It’s not that complicated and certainly not racist.

  403. #404 Mrs Woo
    July 14, 2012

    Leah, I would have to disagree with that. Except for times when one might be trying to paint a particular character in fiction in such a way that readers easily identify that quirk about them, even fiction authors are told to stay away from strange spellings of words to portray a type of speech. In this case here, you were actually trying to make either yourself look mocked as being less than intelligent (being enamored with alternative treatments, unfortunately, is not a measure of “real” intelligence as much as gullibility and willingness to believe) or make her sound stupid. Neither one is appropriate.

    There is no where in the world where the spellings you used for those words is a generally accepted spelling, and this is obviously not a forum where strange things like “kk” and “hullo” and other little deviations from common spellings are used in normal posts.

    Do you see anyone else posting in this blog using the actual way they might pronounce words (or, in my case, using “ya’ll” as the plural of you or being sure to type “Missourah” instead of Missouri)? Are you typing your responses demonstrating your own accent idiosyncrasies?

    For whatever reason you think location has something to do with whether or not we should find someone credible (once again, attacking a person and not the actual topic at hand, or in your case, attacking the person rather than defending your particular point of view, which seems to be that alternative medicine not only works but is superior to science and evidence-based treatments).

    At MSII & thenewme – DC1 preaches, seriously, in their radio shows. Whether or not they believe what they preach – that God has told us again and again that there are natural cures to all of our diseases and that pharmacology is the same thing as alchemy and sorcery and sinful – I’m not sure. It definitely would be a type of “truth” (rolling eyes here) that would appeal to many ultra-conservative Christians and some of the Christian offshoots (i.e., some LDS, 7th-Day Adventists, Restoration LDS, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses). Though it’s more groups of people within those groups rather than a group as a whole and though some of those listed do not actually have anything in their beliefs strictly saying that they cannot use standard medicine, they do have a stronger leaning to “natural” cures, faith healing, etc., that makes the type of pitch used by Daniel Chapter One appealing to them.

    Mr Woo falls into one of those branches and his church has at least a whole bookshelf of their library filled with alternative medicine books that members can check out and take home. Also, there is a published part of their doctrine that recommends herbs, etc., as treatment (but since it was written in the 1800s, it isn’t binding – that was what they had back then to treat most things).

    I get more offended when people use religion to sell stuff like this – as someone who is faithful myself it is terribly offensive to have someone use something that is really a very personal choice as a marketing angle. When people actually take it and use it as an attempt to reduce prosecution for breaking FTC law, etc., I jut get downright angry. Jim Humble’s “church” is nothing but a very calculated fraud.

  404. #405 Agashem
    Waiting for new glasses that aren't ready and should have been arrrrgh
    July 14, 2012

    Thanks for clarifying. I guess Leah is as incomprehensible to others as well.

  405. #406 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    Ahhh, well…. CRAP. Okay, Leah – you busted me. I really am smart and pretty. So much for my ugly and mean troll routine! Too bad – I’ve worked so long and hard on that persona and there you go and wreck it.

    Seriously, Leah, you’re really, REALLY off-base about me, my personality, and my heritage, but even if you were right, WTF would that have to do with Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) NOT curing cancer? And WTF does my participation in the ENERGY trial have to do with anything??? If you or anyone would like to know more, or to discuss it in a sane way, I’m more than happy to oblige

    I may be pretty and smart, but apparently I’m also too damn pigheaded to resist feeding time at the trollery.

    @MrsWoo, I couldn’t agree more about the pseudo-wannabe-religion thing with these quacks! I think they use it in a misguided attempt to add credibility/wholesomeness to their stupidity, but honestly it comes out more as just being unhinged, IMO.

    @Agashem….. incomprehensible, indeed!

  406. #407 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    Leah’s consistent resort to a badly calculated series of ad hominems speaks volumes to the fact that she has no evidence to offer.
    Just another PR flak peddling non-existent majik cures .

  407. #408 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    Bugger now I’ve have an earworm..

    “My friend the witch doctor, he taught me what to say
    My friend the witch doctor, he taught me what to do….”

  408. #409 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    Rats me too..
    And I know that you’ll be mine if I say this to you
    Ew ee ew ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang
    ew ee ew ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang

    Spelling?

  409. #410 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Sauceress, there’s a cure for earworms, ya know!

    If you know the secret handshake, I’ll sell it to you for a low low price, just for you! Today only!

  410. #411 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    What…no enemas?

  411. #412 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    Oh..if I “know the secret handshake”..
    Reading comprehension on my part there!

  412. #413 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @thenewme, you stink at lying.

    I would like to know more about the ENERGY trial though and what alternative treatments you currently have in your back pocket because like I said Protocel does nothing for TNBC. The problem is now I don’t trust you to tell the truth and this is not the platform to freely share that info. Afterall, you don’t want to be mistaken for an altie in front of your friends. Your have to stay true to your ugly and mean troll character ’cause that’s really important when you have BC.

  413. #414 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    Honestly Leah…did you even graduate from kindergarden?

  414. #415 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    kindergarten even

  415. #416 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    So Leah do you want information from thenewme or not? Your post is confusing. I really don’t think she is lying about anything. The ENERGY trial is science based medicine so why would this not be the place to share that information?

  416. #417 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    The ENERGY trial’s main site is UCSD (Univ of Calif, Sand Diego). Easily found on a quick search.

    Again, what does that, or my back pocket, or my trustworthiness (?!) have to do with this discussion?

  417. #418 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    irony meter just burnt out

  418. #419 Maren
    July 14, 2012

    @Leah,
    Please bear in mind that internet pseudonyms (just like first and last names In Real Life) are not unique. Not only is it likely, it is in fact TRUE that more than one woman posting online as “thenewme” has had breast cancer.

  419. #420 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    I thought I saw sparks, Rose – is that what it was?

  420. #421 Maren
    July 14, 2012

    Seriously, a few minutes with google indicates that many people — women and men — use the online moniker “thenewme.” If their personal details don’t match up, that doesn’t mean they’re “liars”– it means they’re different people!

  421. #422 Sauceress
    July 14, 2012

    Rose
    “irony meter just burnt out”
    Really? It lasted right up til now?
    Mine went way back up thread when I read:

    Leah (July 8, 12:03 pm)
    ["Of course not all alternative cancer treatments are legit. Questioning them, however, in a civil manner is quite different than spitting words such as mentally ill, quacks etc., or making childish sarcastic comments. That’s a deep insecurity on their parts."]

    followed by..
    Leah (July 13, 4:31 am)
    ["Orac you must think MD stands for Murder Degree. You give the chemical community a bad name. Shame on you. You are a quack by your own definition."]

    and…
    Leah (July 13, 9:03 am”
    ["Orac should lose his license to practice medicine. He is too interested in being a cult leader. You vulnerable so-called science people are under his spell. You all treat his blogs like the bible and questioning what he writes is not encouraged."
    Do a search under black-cat’s name at BCO....
    She needs deprogramming. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks mental illness may be playing a part too."]

    Time for Leah to drop her pathetic little bully tactics and start answering some of the questions that have been asked of her above.
    Here’s a little refresher for you Leah..no need to thank me.
    @Marc Stephens Is Insane (July 13, 12:44 pm)
    ["Leah, you sneer at the word chemical. I presume you use it in the context of Big Pharma. Chemicals are bad, mkay. So what the hell is Protecel?"]
    ~ ~
    @Todd W.(July 13, 1:13 pm)
    [Leah:Vitamins and nutrition are medicines.
    Todd W. So you’d not object to them being regulated like medicines, then, instead of dietary supplements?]
    ~ ~
    @thenewme (4:14 pm)
    ["WTF would that have to do with Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) NOT curing cancer? And WTF does my participation in the ENERGY trial have to do with anything???]

  422. #423 Rose
    July 14, 2012

    I think the meter has been malfunctioning.

  423. #424 Shay
    July 14, 2012

    I admit to skipping some of the more recent posts, but let me see if I got this straight; Leah admitted (after she was called out) that she’s a vendor for an alleged breast cancer cure, and she posts on a breast cancer site trying to convince women with that disease to abandon their doctors’ solutions and buy her product?

    And she calls other people names. Pot, meet kettle.

  424. #425 Thomas
    July 14, 2012

    “Seriously, a few minutes with google indicates that many people — women and men — use the online moniker “thenewme.” If their personal details don’t match up, that doesn’t mean they’re “liars”– it means they’re different people!”

    Don’t be silly. Every one named “thenewme” is the same person, just like every Leah is the same person.

  425. #426 Black-cat
    home from work
    July 14, 2012

    Now thenewme is of Indo-Trinidadian descent? Leah, you are getting nuttier and nuttier by the day. How did you come up with that? Are you having some sort of breakdown?

  426. #427 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    And what were you trying to say to her? I have not masterred your language yet?

  427. #428 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    Oh, that’s what you mean about going back to her island roots. and becoming a natural girl.

    Too funny.

  428. #429 AFriend
    July 14, 2012

    Leah’s brain has probably been altered by the alternative medications she takes :)

  429. #430 Black-cat
    July 14, 2012

    @Afriend:

    LOL. Thanks for pming me at BCO. I have been banned again and cannot read pms. It’s maddening. I knew what I did here was going to get me banned but big deal. I was done with that sickening site If I thought it out, I would have pm’d all of you and let you know my email addy. .

    It’s not up to me to be doing the work that the physician owner is responsible for. After all she is the one helping herself to a salary in the neighborhood of 250,000 a year from donations.

    What I regret is that I am not able to get pms and have lost contact with everyone. I was going to get all to pm thenewme and have her give you my email addy but gave it some thought and decided that it’s a bad idea. I have seen some really stupid knee jerk reactions from the mods when alties cried wolf. Alties are very manipulative on that site and the mods are very gullible and seem to react on emotions rather than facts. Putting up a quack miranda warning the same day that JoyLIesWIthin howled that my post to chilli was going to drive her to commiting suicide and that BCO would be sued by the family. Oddly enough, they left my post up which surprises me.

    I’ll get a Black-cat google email. I would love to keep in touch with all of you. You all kept me going and it meant so much to get those pm’s telling me that I helped you. If it were not for the support that I got, I would not have lasted as long as I did.

  430. #431 Leah
    July 14, 2012

    @Sauceress

    The first question I already answered, but I’ll answer Todd’s question.

    I wouldn’t oppose to vitamins being regulated in the U.S similar to the way the federal government regulates vitamins in Canada.

    There is a much much bigger problem though. As you may know, the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs, which of course come with side effects galore. What’s even more frightening is that prescription drugs are now the third leading cause of death in the U.S.

    These number tell us that the FDA needs severely crack down on the pharmaceutical industry instead of harping on the vitamin industry. People who take vitamins are not dropping like dominoes. As usual, the FDA has their priorities “misplaced”. It’s being run, and heavily funded, by the pharmaceutical companies, so the FDA lets them literally get away with murder.

  431. #432 novalox
    July 14, 2012

    @leah

    [citation needed].

  432. #433 Redloh
    @leah
    July 14, 2012

    Even though all the natural sites are trumpeting that statistic they should at least acknowledge that many if not most of those deaths are not due to Drs treating patients but to patients overdosing on OxyContin and other narcotics that are being stolen and abused.

  433. #434 Chemmomo
    Italicland?
    July 14, 2012

    Leah @ July 14, 10:12 pm

    Funny thing: the CDC seems to think the third leading cause of death is Chronic lower respiratory diseases.
    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_04.pdf
    These are the 2010 numbers – See page 7 of the PDF.
    The 2009 numbers are the same at the top of the list: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

    I’ll also note that if “the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs” my family is way below average. Who on earth are you talking about, Leah?

  434. #435 Redloh
    July 14, 2012

    She’s just practicing her best altie behavior. Accuracy and factual reporting aren’t part of the koolaid.

  435. #436 thenewme
    July 14, 2012

    @Chemmomo, thanks for sharing the facts.
    @Redloh, yeah. Accuracy and factual reporting don’t usually jive too well with their talking points and rhetoric.

    You know, I talk to my kids a lot about “red flags.” When my son’s classmate insisted that his dog could (REALLY!) hold 23 golf balls in its mouth at once, we discussed what kinds of things are believable, credible, and likely. On the other hand, we discussed how some people just like to make shit up.

  436. #437 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    thenewme, you are a good mama

  437. #438 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    I think anti-anxiety pills are largely to blame. These days they’re being handed out like jelly beans by MDs. You all should watch Death by Medicine. Many people are taking drugs they don’t need because crazy amounts of money is being spent on direct-to-consumer advertising. Those” ask your doctor if chemicals are right for you” 30-second spots are powerful. Americans like instant gratification, so the fact that side effects could range from a slight itch to death goes woozing over their heads. It’s so sad. Too many Americans dumb, fat and sick, so they’re easy to manipulate.

  438. #439 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    What’s your excuse, Aussie.

  439. #440 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    Black-cat – hopefully you’ll get an email from me soon :)

    Not fair you were banned – what was their reason??

  440. #441 Black-cat
    bcoblackcat@gmail.com
    July 15, 2012

    This time it was fair. It was for outing members on this site. This time banning me was appropriate. It’s fine, it’s time for me and BCO to part ways. As a breast cancer patient I can honestly say that beastcancer.org failed me. What’s wrong with this picture? I’m the sick women with an aggresive breast cancer that needs help, but I stumble into the altie forums and see some really sick people in need of assistance. Instead of getting the help and support that I need from the site, I feel the need to render assistance to those getting the misinformation that will kill thm.

    As I said, BCO is a very broken site. I just found out that google donated 60,000 to BCO. Google is going to be the first company that I approach on funding a non profit breast cancer site where there is no psuedoscience and where nobody gets a salary over a dollar.

  441. #442 Militant Agnostic
    Wondering why I bother with blockquote
    July 15, 2012

    the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs

    What kind of moron believes statistics like this? Even allowing for the possibility that the average can be much higher than the median, this is absurd. It reminds me of the claim that N million women are killed by their husbands/boyfriends every year in the USA where N million is greater than the total annual number of deaths in the USA or the claim that an American woman over 40 (or maybe it was only 30) had a greater chance of being killed by a terrorist than of getting married. I think there is some sort of weird claim / big lie effect where the more absurd the statistic is the more likely it is to be remembered and the more likely it is to be repeated. “Did you know that …”

  442. #443 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    Re:

    “What kind of moron believes statistics like this?”

    JoyLiesWithin

  443. #444 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    aka: Leah

  444. #445 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I’m not on any prescriptions, so that means somebody out there is on a whopping 14 prescription drugs to arrive at an average of 7. Mind you, I’m not American.

    Apologies to any mathematicians; I’m just trying to make the point about averages.

    And I don’t believe that figure of 7 drugs anyway. Not as “the average”.

  445. #446 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    I did try to get them to change their mind – no go. Why don’t you sign up with a different user name – all of the altie bullies do.

  446. #447 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    They don’t check IP addresses – just tried it :) Just used a different email address and new name.

  447. #448 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Take two:

    Black-cat,

    Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
    From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell anything on it?)

    Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists “38 natural alternatives for HIV”, to give you an idea what lurks within.

    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  448. #449 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Take two:

    Black-cat,

    Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
    From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell all kinds of junk on it?)

    Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists 38 natural alternatives for HIV, to give you an idea what lurks within.

    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  449. #450 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I just tried to post the same comment three times, but they disappeared each time. I’m hesistant to post a fourth time, in case they all show up on some delay. Let’s see if this shows up first.

  450. #451 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Damn–just had a longish comment completely disappear. Twice. Take three:

    Black-cat,

    Are you aware of Orac’s “friend’s” other blog, Science-Based Medicine? A woomeister there posted an herbal quackery site as basis for some of his claims that herbs cure anything.
    From that website I found another quack site that will infuriate you. It’s an alternative breast cancer cure site run by a Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, who uses the cutesy name Dr. V. Ever hear of her? The first thing you see on her site, center page is black salve. Of course there’s the obligatory online store as well, so you can buy all kinds of stuff from the doc. (How come none of the real doctors I know have websites, and if they do, they don’t sell all kinds of junk on it?)

    Anyway, only venture over there if you’re prepared to have the stupid burned into your eyes. The herbal site lists 38 natural alternatives for HIV, to give you an idea what lurks within.

    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/

    I’ll put the breast cancer link in a second post in case that’s causing the problem.

  451. #452 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  452. #453 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    And here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  453. #454 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    And here’s Dr. V’s natural bc cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  454. #455 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    And here’s Dr. V’s natural breast cancer cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  455. #456 Militant Agnostic
    July 15, 2012

    @Mark Stevens is Insane

    Mind you, I’m not American.

    According to T-Shirt I saw (in a Tim Horton’s on Canada Day), you are an “Unarmed American with Healthcare”.

  456. #457 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    This comments section is screwed up. My posts keep disappearing, and when I repost I get a “duplicate message” warning from SB. Let’s try one more time to get Dr. V’s natural breast cancer cure website posted:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

    I apologize in advance if my posts show up multiple times later on.

  457. #458 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  458. #459 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  459. #460 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    Correction – got a pm asking if I wanted to get rid of my old account – they must check IP addresses – mine is fixed.

  460. #461 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    Well shucks, I guess I will have to go ask for more prescriptions, because I am below average.I really would like to see a source on that seven prescription average.
    I would not recommend bco to a new cancer patient. I found it a year after I was diagnosed and not as a scared new patient..
    I am glad.

  461. #462 MI Dawn
    July 15, 2012

    I’m way below average, too. I take 1 prescription medication daily along with a multi-vitamin. Every other day I take another prescription medication (so some days I take 2 Rx meds). My ex husband, a diabetic, takes 1 Rx med a day, along with a multivit. Our parents, all in their 70s or older, take an average of 3 Rx meds a day, along with some OTC meds (vitamins, fish oil, calcium, etc).

    Guess my family, even the senior citizens, are WAY below Leah’s average.

    And yes, I am aware there are those people who are on a lot of medications – as a nurse, I had people bringing in brown paper bags or lists to show me what medications they were taking.

    But – and this is a huge BUT – most of them had multiple physicians, all prescribing for their specific specialties, and the patients weren’t communicating that other doctors had prescribed other medications. They also used multiple pharmacies, so there was no cross check by the pharmacist as to the medications.

    So yeah, poly-pharmacy exists. But, Leah, prove to me that it’s all the doctors’ fault, rather than partially lying within the patient who didn’t communicate?

    (I’ll never forget the one woman, who complained of “always being sleepy.” She was taking 4 different narcotics – all prescribed by different physicians – because she hadn’t told them what other doctors had prescribed. And yes, I saw what she wrote on the intake sheet – “other medications – vitamins”. But once we had her bring in all the medications rather than just telling us – we stopped the poly-pharmacy and amazingly, she got her energy back!

    Patients are responsible. Doctors do not have ESP to know when a patient is on medications from another doctor. Pharmacies help a lot, if the patient uses one pharmacy or one chain. But if they pharmacy-hop, like many people do, then again, it is the PATIENT’S responsibility.

  462. #463 MI Dawn
    July 15, 2012

    (add note: I’ll be glad when Orac is back from TAM and can fix this italics mess…)

  463. #464 Rae
    Reality
    July 15, 2012

    Leah doesn’t actually give a timeframe for the 7 meds, so it may be true albeit very misleading. Think about it, could be 7 meds a year, 7 meds in a 5 year period, or whatever the heck Leah wants to use to get to her personal best drama factoid.

    As a cancer patient myself, if the period is 1 year, counting chemo meds, imaging contrasts, and differentiating the IV meds post surgery from the oral versions once home, I’m totally popping the average against the rest of the public who aren’t being treated for serious conditions.

    But, key fact: even in active cancer treatment I’ve yet to be taking 7 prescription meds *at the same time*

  464. #465 Rae
    July 15, 2012

    Popping *up* the average, that is

    (also wondering whether a 3 drug chemo regemine counts as 1 or 3 in the total? Do different flavors of barium smoothie count separately? Is big pharma really being an evil bully when II take anti nausea meds and white blood cell boosters with the chemo, cause to be honest I’m pretty glad about those…)

  465. #466 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    My apologies, according to the FDA, medical mistakes and adverse drug reactions are the third leading cause of death. Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths. Watch Death By Medicine by Gary Null. You’ll love it.
    Furthermore, it is estimated that 1.3 million Americans are at high risk of premature death from taking mixtures of prescription drugs that can trigger interactions. More and more educated people are now waking up and using naturopathic doctors as their primary care providers because they know drugs just mask problems and create more problems. I’m sure GPs will eventually only be used to diagnose.

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane, private oncologists don’t need websites. What for? Over 50% of their revenues come from prescribing chemotherapy. It’s their cash cow.

    Chemotherapy is not the answer to cancer. It’s one the worst scams in history. Have you any idea how many breast cancer patients are over treated? On top of that, chemotherapy is extremely harsh, so calling it poison is accurate, even though the word “poison” makes those promoting and profiting from it feel “uncomfortable”.

    The reality is patients do die from the side effects of chemotherapy. It would be so wonderful if conventional cancer treatments were non-hazardous and effective with benefits that actually outweigh the risks, but they are not. Just so you know, burying your head in the sand, pretending that they are great won’t make them so either.

    Now if an alternative cancer treatment were ever put on the market that virtually harmed every patient, killed millions, and may possibly help fewer than a measly 3 percent of cancer patients given it, those “quacks” pushing it would be brought to court, and yet the chemical community is legally allowed to push chemo.

    If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime.

  466. #467 Thomas
    July 15, 2012

    “If it were up to me, oncologists who deliberately over treat patients would receive the death penalty. A lethal injection of chemo is punishment that would certainly go well with the crime.”

    Tell us more about your fantasies of vengeance. They provide a fascinating view into your mindset. Isn’t it nice that Orac provides a forum for you to spout your ridiculous accusations? Is he paying you to make alties look bad, or do you imagine that you’re actually winning?

  467. #468 Niche Geek
    July 15, 2012

    Just trying a few things…

  468. #469 Rae
    July 15, 2012

    Quote from Leah: Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths.

    Tell us Leah, why don’t diabetes and AIDS kill more people? At one time each was a death sentence–what happened?

    (hint, it begins with “Pharm-” and ends with “-a”)

    Quote from Leah: It would be so wonderful if conventional cancer treatments were non-hazardous and effective with benefits that actually outweigh the risks, but they are not.

    So, Leah, saving me from a slow and painful cancer death? Sure, no benefit in that. Much better to try broccoli sprouts since there’s no risk of DEATH FROM THE CANCER in rolling the dice on that.

    Idiot.

  469. #470 thenewme
    July 15, 2012

    My experience as an actual breast cancer survivor/patient:
    -Double mastectomy (“Slash”) sucked. It was emotionally much more traumatic than physically, but there was an element of relief, knowing that my 5-cm super aggressive cancer was removed.

    -Reconstruction surgeries sucked. I had multiple complications, including eventual failure of one implant with subsequent deconstruction of one side.

    -Chemotherapy with Adriamycin, Cytoxin, and Taxotere. (“Poison”). It sucked. Not as bad as I expected, but it was a really difficult experience physically and mentally. Again, there was an element of relief. My oncologists and nurses were VERY upfront, honest, and watchful for any side effects, and quick to assist with any that came up. When I developed worsening neuropathy, my onc discussed the risks and benefits with me, and WE decided to forego the last Taxotere. Thankfully the neuropathy is practically gone.

    -Radiation (“Burn”). You guessed it….It sucked. Mostly I felt discomfort and fatigue, until the end, when I had some skin breakdown.

    Do I wish there was an easier treatment? Of course.
    Would I do it again? ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY.

  470. #471 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    Leah,
    (Quote bolded to clarify among rogue italics).

    Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths. Watch Death By Medicine by Gary Null. You’ll love it.

    Gary Null’s iatrogenic death estimates include malnutrition, bedsores and infection and he counts a number of groups of deaths more than once. The way he calculates deaths from bed sores is interesting. The mortality rate for hospital patients with bedsores is 23-37%, and a million hospital patients a year get bedsores. Null guesses that 50% of those deaths might be caused by bedsores, and comes up with 115,000 iatrogenic deaths from that. Even if you accept bed sores as iatrogenic (I would class them as either accidental or due to poor nursing care), I wonder how many of those deaths were actually caused by bed sores and how many by another condition that led to the patient being bedridden. Null also relies heavily on Lazarou’s 1998 study on adverse drug reactions that looked at studies mostly from the 60s and 70s, that actually counted less than 100 deaths and extrapolated to the entire population of the USA. Take all these figures with a very large pinch of salt.

  471. #472 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    As my dad would say, “Figures don’t lie, liars figure.”
    Figures from Gary Null? It just gets better and better.

  472. #473 MI Dawn
    July 15, 2012

    Isn’t there a form of Scopie’s law that says invoking Gary Null and his (null) facts means you automatically lose the argument? I wouldn’t trust Gary Null for anything, from the junk I’ve read from his site (I went there once and was so appalled I never returned). Guess that makes me a “sheeple” since I don’t want to read the REAL TROOF ™.

    And I’ve always loved the “secrets ‘they’ don’t want you to know” that are all over the internet. Some secret. The only secret is how much the sellers are making off the poor suckers who fall for their line.

  473. #474 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I think Scopie’s law should be extended to Null, Natural News, Mercola, Oz and of course whale.to

  474. #475 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.

    And here’s Dr. V’s alternative bc cure site:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  475. #476 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  476. #477 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Why do my posts keep disappearing? I’ve been trying over and over to reply to Black-cat but every time I hit “submit comment” my posts disappear! They have less than two URLs in them. Does Orac hate me?! :-) THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!

  477. #478 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    And when I try to repost, I get a “duplicate comment” warning from SB, even though my original post disappeared.

  478. #479 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    Like thenewme, Im also a BC survivor/patient. I had chemo, a UMX, and radiation. Certainly not a pleasant experience but I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. The alternative for me would have been a painful death from BC. No thanks.

    As far as the average of 7 scripts per person? Ah, doubt that one. Tamoxifen and Prilosec for me. Thats it.

  479. #480 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    As I warned, this site will infuriate you.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  480. #481 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    This site will probably infuriate you:

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  481. #482 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    “Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths.” That’s from the FDA’s website. Look it up yourselves.

    “Death By Medicine” just drives home the message. Warning! Those who are above learning or are junkies will not appreciate this film.

  482. #483 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    This is impossible…four attempts to post my reply have all failed. And yet these messages get posted. Did SB install some kind of filter recently? My post has one URL and the message is average length. Certainly other comments here are much longer. I am about to give up on RI completely, unless this is just a glitch.

  483. #484 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  484. #485 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    “medical treatments” can be any number of things. Being treated for a life threatening disease that was going to kill you anyway is still a “medical treatment”.

  485. #486 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    Here’s Ms. Veronique Desaulniers infuriating website.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  486. #487 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  487. #488 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    That’s it–six attempts to post a reply have all disappeared. I’m giving up–this is useless.

    Anyone else having trouble posting?

    Black-cat, I had a website to show you and some comments on it, but SB or Orac simply does not want me to post it for some reason. I’ll try later.

  488. #489 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    Where was that on the fda site?

  489. #490 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    This site will infuriate you.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  490. #491 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I was trying in vain to post this website last night, but I must have invoked the wrath of SB since my posts kept disappearing.

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  491. #492 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    As I warned yesterday, this site will infuriate you.

    http://breastcancerconqueror.com/

  492. #493 Chemmomo
    Where people can both read and spell
    July 15, 2012

    Cutting and pasting from the CDC PDF linked earlier for Leah’s benefit:

    Leading causes of death for 2010 (preliminary results same as 2009)
    1 Diseases of heart
    2 Malignant neoplasms
    3 Chronic lower respiratory diseases
    4 Cerebrovascular diseases
    5 Accidents (unintentional injuries)
    6 Alzheimer’s disease
    7 Diabetes mellitus
    8 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis
    9 Influenza and pneumonia
    10 Intentional self-harm (suicide)
    11 Septicemia
    12 Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
    13 Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease
    14 Parkinson’s disease

    What’s your source, Leah? I’m not planning to watch any Gary Null videos, or any other videos – please post a link that can be read.

    Or are you just going to shift all your numbers to start at #15 instead of #4, just as you switched to #4 after I told you #3 was wrong?

  493. #494 MI Dawn
    July 15, 2012

    I didn’t know the FDA kept track of all deaths. Drug related deaths, drug interactions, sure. But ALL causes of death? I’d like to see where Leah found that on the FDA site. And Leah – don’t tell us to find it ourselves. You quoted it, you post the link FROM the FDA site. Not Gary Null, Natural News, or any other quack site.

  494. #495 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Black-cat,

    Here’s the link to Ms. Veronique Desaulniers “Conquering Breast Cancer” lunatic website. I call her Ms., not Dr. V, because I found out she’s not an MD, she’s only a chiropractor and an “energy healer” who treated her own cancer herself and now counsels others on how to cure themselves naturally.

    Check out her “Seven Essentials” if you want to gag, and then look at the cancer remedies she sells. Some of the kits go for $1000 for a 30 day supply. You can also buy time with her over the phone to get her useless advice.

    She endorses TFT, homeopathy, black salve, herbs and nutrition and magnets, earth grounding and lots of other “energy” crap. It’s an entire woo salad.

    She has “testimonials” from supposed doctors she has worked with, but those doctors only use their initials. Why so coy? I can understand some patients might want to preserve their privacy, but why would a doctor not use his/her full name on a site endorsing another “health care provider”?
    Of course every few paragraphs there’s a pitch to buy her services.

    Why the hell is a chiropractor selling cancer advice? Can’t the state of Georgia stop her?

    She is also a frequent contributor to Natural News, so that alone should tell you she’s a moron.

    breastcancerconqueror.com/

  495. #496 thenewme
    July 15, 2012

    Looks like Leia is just regurgitating yet another old Chicken Little Memo from Null-Brain. Cherry pick much?

    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

    Life Extension Foundation (LEF [.org] ) is yet another “Health Freedom” quackfest. Check out their front page with the consumer alert, “FDA Seeks to Outlaw Dietary Supplements!!! ”

    Gimme a break. The fact-twisting and half truths are just mindboggling.

  496. #497 Denice Walter
    July 15, 2012

    *Death by Medicine* derives from a group effort including Null, one of his cohorts ( Martin Feldman) and a struck-off Canadian physician ( Carolyn Dean) who later emigrated and got an ND ( see quackwatch for her story) that originally appeared as an article and book several years ago; more recently, it has made its grand debut as a feature film- thus, it circulates the net through amenable websites and facebook pages. James Laidler has discussed how the numbers came about ( see also Harriet Hall, IIRC).

    Dawn, expect more of the same: there is a new feature called * War on Health: the FDA’s Cult of Tyranny* which is available free at Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network.com- you ‘pay’ by tweeting or liking it. So it spreads like a virus. Additionally, there are a host of recent articles, co-written by a veterinarian and some dudes, that cast aspersion on vaccines and organised medicine- amongst other topics. The quack-in-charge has hired a slew of ‘scholars-in-residences’ ( 5 or 6, the report varies) and film production staff to create written,internet radio and filmed material: these groups of specialists complement his established stable of legal eagles.

    All of this- and more- is available via the aforementioned sites and co-ordinating facebook pages. Take a peek- if you have a strong stomach.

  497. #498 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I sincerely apologize for my comments being printed here several times. Overthe last few hours I had been trying to post a reply to Black-cat but every single time the post would simply disappear. Now I see the comments have ALL shown up. Maybe Orac can delete them all except for the last one, with the link to the fake doctor Veronique Desaulniers’s website.

    Sorry again–it think I was the victim of a glitch. There was no reason for any of my comments to go into moderation unless Orac has put me on a leash for some reason. Can’t figure out why, if that is the case.

    Apologies again. I’ll go away now.

  498. #499 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    The reason I asked where the stats about medically caused deaths was on the FDA site is because I looked there and didn’t find it. Then I spent some time with Gogle and found stats from the NIH. Is that what you meant to reference Leah? Or were we expected to take you at your word?

  499. #500 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    Leah,

    “Medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year. Adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death -ahead of things like diabetes, AIDS, accidents and automobile deaths.”

    The following quote from the FDA website is from a learning module by CERT (my emphasis):

    The Institute of Medicine reported in January of 2000 that from 44,000 to 98,000 deaths occur annually from medical errors.1 Of this total, an estimated 7,000 deaths occur due to ADRs. To put this in perspective, consider that 6,000 Americans die each year from workplace injuries. However, other studies conducted on hospitalized patient populations have placed much higher estimates on the overall incidence of serious ADRs. These studies estimate that 6.7% of hospitalized patients have a serious adverse drug reaction with a fatality rate of 0.32%.2 If these estimates are correct, then there are more than 2,216,000 serious ADRs in hospitalized patients, causing over 106,000 deaths annually. If true, then ADRs are the 4th leading cause of death—ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents, and automobile deaths.

    That 106,000 deaths figure comes from Lazarou whose study, as I stated above, is based on mostly studies form the 60s and 70s and is based on fewer than 100 deaths extrapolated to the entire USA population. I would put more weight on the IoM figures, and bear in mind that, to quote a Swedish study on fatal ADRs “”most study subjects experiencing FADRs were old and had several diseases and had therefore a limited lifetime expectancy”.

    MSII, I had a similar experience a few days ago, with my comments apparently disappearing into thin air without so much as an error message. It’s weird.

  500. #501 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    Unfortunately, I could not even find NIH number’s to back up your claim.

  501. #503 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    Sorry about the rouge apostrophe.

  502. #504 Chemmomo
    Not doing Leah's work for her
    July 15, 2012

    Rose, I found a one page summary with references at the FDA site, but I’m still waiting for Leah’s response before posting anything.

  503. #505 Rose
    July 15, 2012

    Thanks, I found the adverse drug article but not the sum of that and other medically caused deaths.
    I am sorry for all the short posts. I have the attention span of a gnat right now.

  504. #506 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    In the halls of the apostrophe police
    July 15, 2012

    Sorry about the rouge apostrophe.

    You mean it’s a reddish makeup?

  505. #507 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 15, 2012

    I think Leah needs to learn that she’s not going to get very far here with the strategy of changing the subject every time her claims are shown to be false.

    Leah, I am going to ask you, straight out: Where on the FDA website does it say that medical treatments cause over 200 000 deaths per year or that adverse drug reactions are the fourth leading cause of death? You made that claim; it’s your responsibility to provide the citation for it.

    If you post three more comments, in this thread or any other, and none of those three comments contain an appropriate citation, the third comment will be taken as your admission that the FDA does not make those claims. We simply do not choose to reward the behavior of making grandiose claims and then moving on to new claims rather than showing an ounce of merit to the previous claims.

  506. #508 Sauceress
    July 15, 2012

    “You mean it’s a reddish makeup?”

    *throws an eraser at Mephistopheles O’Brien*

  507. #509 Rose
    Checking out new make-up colors
    July 15, 2012

    Now you know my terrible secret. I can’t type. I usually can spell, but that ability can be masked by my lack of typing skills.

  508. #510 Rose
    Checking out new make-up colors
    July 15, 2012

    Keyboarding is not one of my skills.

  509. #511 Rose
    In word press hell
    July 15, 2012

    i was trying to sneak tha tcomment around the duplicate comment police. It said I had already posted the comment long before it showed up. (whine and whimper)

  510. #512 Mrs Woo
    July 15, 2012

    Well, a May 2010 PDF from Kaiser Family Foundation says,

    “Utilization. The number of prescriptions dispensed in the US in 2009 increased 2.1% (from 3.8 billion to 3.9 billion), a
    larger growth rate than the 1.0% increase in 2008 over 2007. From 1999 to 2009, the number of prescriptions increased 39% (from 2.8 billion to 3.9 billion), compared to a US population growth of 9%. The average number of retail
    prescriptions per capita increased from 10.1 in 1999 to 12.6 in 2009. The percent of the population with a prescription
    drug expense in 2007 was 62%, the same as in 1997. The proportion of those with an expense varied by age — 58% for
    those under age 65 and 90% for those 65 and older, with little change since 1997 when the proportions were 59% and 86%, respectively.”

    I believe, though, the per capita was number of prescriptions per year, which would include things like birth control pills, allergy medication (in some plans it is cheaper to get medication available over the counter as “prescribed” and only pay your copay and some will take it that way), antibiotics, etc. Also, as pointed out by some cancer patients, it would probably be counted as a prescription each procedure, which would make numbers also run higher. I can’t tell from what I’m reading if each refill counted as a prescription, too (since it reads “prescriptions dispensed”), though the 62% of the population had some kind of prescription quote makes me suspect that it might.

    Once again – when you throw numbers around without any understanding of what period of time they are referencing, you can make them sound pretty doggone impressive. When I used to write marketing materials we often played with the scaling on the graphs to make them look best to suit our purposes, because the most reviewing that part of the data wouldn’t be looking closely at it as much as they would be doing due diligence on the legalities. If it left them with a positive impression, they were more likely to consider the product (this was not when I was in marketing in biotech; it was in real estate).

  511. #513 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    I was just cruising around the altie threads on BCO. It doesn’t take more than a couple of posts to find some truly crazy opinions. Specifically, one poster self diagnosed herself as contracting aids three separate times. She also claims she cured herself by following the teachings of Gary Null. Uh huh, ok.

  512. #514 Mrs Woo
    July 15, 2012

    @Jergen – on support threads for my disease many of the “self-healed” who are touting their treatments were also self-diagnosed. It makes those of us who have gone through the diagnostic process and have demonstrated illness so frustrated, both because it can mislead really sick people to treatments that could even be harmful to them. and because it is misleading (and in some ways, insulting, especially when they pull out the “you just don’t want to go on this all grapefruit healing diet because you don’t want to be healed.”).

  513. #515 Sauceress
    July 15, 2012

    jergen
    [Specifically, one poster self diagnosed herself as contracting aids three separate times. She also claims she cured herself by following the teachings of Gary Null. Uh huh, ok.]

    Which thread?

  514. #516 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    “Alternatie Therapy” thread. Start reading at 5/14 10:34PM

  515. #517 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @MrsWoo….yes, very frustrating. How could one possibly self diagnose AIDS? I think I have AIDS therefore I do?

    The same thread I mentioned above is touting the healing qualities of Graviola leaves. It “only targets cancer cells, not healthy cells”. Surprisingly, a couple of other alties have made the point that it has been known to cause Parkinsons. I feel for the newbie who will read this nonsense and believe it.

  516. #518 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    The woman you are talking about thinks Gary Null is a saint – she is also severely limited intellectually. She is a self admitted recovered ? heroin addict. She says she has bc but won’t have surgery. Most of her posts are indecipherable, like she is ON something. If you tell her to have surgery, she starts posting about being abused as a child by the local doctor.

    I hope no one attacks me for repeating someone’s info here, but I didn’t name names, I’m sure you can figure it out for yourself.

  517. #519 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @afriend

    Heroin addict? That says it all.

  518. #520 Mrs Woo
    July 15, 2012

    @jergen – a woman at our church self-diagnosed herself with bone cancer (because her body hurt all over) and then healed herself with prayer. ~sigh~

    No wonder the internet drives some doctors crazy.

  519. #521 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @afriend

    My head was killing me yesterday morning. I guess it had nothing to do with the wine the night before. Its brain cancer!

    Im sorry, but this stuff is so ridiculous its funny. Some of the things written on that thread are just crazy! One gal doesn’t want to do the vitamin C therapy because it will interfere with the Protocel! If I didn’t read it myself I wouldn’t believe it.

  520. #522 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    The woman you people are gossiping about is 75 years old and is afraid surgery will kill her. For the love of God, have have respect and don’t judge her. For whatever reasons many people suffer from Iatrophobia.

    jergen@ like Tamoxifen, Protocel will not work if you are taking antioxidants.

    In the article below is the link to the FDA’s website. Unfortunately, I can’t make it hot , so look up the article yourselves to get the link and contact the FDA. They’ll guide you to more scary stats over the phone. A staff member has done that for me in the past.

    FDA accused of mass homicide of one million Americans each decade

    Tuesday, May 22, 2012 by: Ethan A. Huff, staff writer

    (NaturalNews) The biggest threat to America today is not terrorists or global warming, but the mass genocide of Americans who die every year at the hands of the corrupt U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). In a recent report, investigative reporter Jon Rappoport uncovers the dirty truth that FDA-approved drugs kill at least 100,000 people every single year — the FDA actually lists this figure on its own website — and the agency is doing absolutely nothing about this disastrous trend.

    On a webpage entitled Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?, the FDA admits that 100,000 people die every single year as a result of taking FDA-approved pharmaceutical drugs. Citing figures from three different published studies, the figures also reveal that two million people a year suffer from serious ADRs, which include things like stroke, heart attack, and permanent neurological damage.

    You can view the FDA page for yourself here:
    http://www.fda.gov

    Since these figures come from studies dating back to at least 1998, it is clear that the FDA is fully aware of the extensive harm being caused by supposedly “safe” drugs. And since it has done nothing to address the problem, the agency is complicit in willfully harming and murdering tens of millions of Americans throughout just the past several decades, which makes it one of the most murderous government regimes in history.

    Based on the figures presented by the FDA, at least 30 million people have suffered serious injury or death as a result of taking FDA-approved drugs just since 1998 when the first cited study was published. If you go back several more decades, it is clear that potentially hundreds of millions of people have been directly harmed by the FDA’s “negligent homicide.”

    “It is time for these murderous government crimes to end,” writes Rappoport in his report. “It is time for all responsible parties to be brought to justice, to real justice. It is time for the public to realize that 100,000 people dying every year in the U.S., because they take medical drugs, is the equivalent of 33 airliner crashes into the Twin Towers, every year, year after year.”

    Why the FDA and its drug lords are the real terrorists
    Since the FDA is the official gatekeeper of pharmaceutical drugs, it is directly responsible for the harm they cause. And yet agency officials have never, in any meaningful way, been held responsible for their crimes against humanity. And the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), as Rappoport points out, has failed to step in and pursue those responsible for peddling poison as medicine.

    If al-Qaeda operatives were caught dispensing toxic chemicals disguised as medicine to innocent civilians, they would be sent off to Guantanamo Bay without trial, and locked away indefinitely. But when the FDA does the very same thing on a much more massive scale, nobody bats an eye. And yet the number of people that the FDA has killed with its drugs is far more than the number killed during 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing.

    The organized crime ring that is the federal government today is the real terrorist threat that we all face on a daily basis. And until the American people collectively wake up to this reality, we will continue to watch our friends, our families, and our children, which are the casualties of this ongoing terrorist attack, lay waste at the hands of Big Pharma and the FDA.

    Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/035936_FDA_homicide_victims.html#ixzz20kRryatw

  521. #523 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?
    Institute of Medicine, National Academy Press, 2000
    Lazarou J et al. JAMA 1998;279(15):1200–1205
    Gurwitz JH et al. Am J Med 2000;109(2):87–94

    Over 2 MILLION serious ADRs yearly
    100,000 DEATHS yearly
    ADRs 4th leading cause of death ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents and automobile deaths
    Ambulatory patients ADR rate—unknown
    Nursing home patients ADR rate— 350,000 yearly

  522. #524 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Quoting Natural News to us is like quoting Mad Magazine.

    Protocel will not work. Fixed that for you.

    So we can’t make fun of a kook who thinks she got AIDS not once, not twice, but THREE times and cured it herself each time? What does it matter if she’s 25 or 75?

  523. #525 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Do you understand the point of the article you cited in JAMA? Also, notice it’s dated 2000. Do you understand why it was written?

  524. #526 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    The Tampa Bay Times did a piece of legal drug abuse last year. Over 500 people a year in the Tampa Bay/St. Pete/Clearwater area die every year from legal drug abuse: mostly Oxys, that thet get with legal prescriptions (from multiple doctors sometimes) and then snort or inject. One woman in the story bought somepne’s else’s MRI and used that to show doctors she had terrible back pain to get her Oxys. Is any of this the fault of the drug companies or doctors?

  525. #527 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @Leah says:

    If al-Qaeda operatives were caught dispensing toxic chemicals disguised as medicine to innocent civilians, they would be sent off to Guantanamo Bay without trial, and locked away indefinitely.

    So what should we do to those who dispense toxic chemicals disguised as supplements? Dont post another article from Natural News. Thats like asking a 2 year old child their opinion on cancer meds. Really Leah, it makes you seem stupid.

  526. #528 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane
    Call the FDA for more recent stats. The numbers are much higher than that.

  527. #529 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    You never answer any questions or address our points. You just bring up more nonsense.

    If you hate chemicals, what’s in Protocel? Do you even know? How do you know each batch is the same? How do you know there are no harmful impurities in a batch?

    And are you aware that recent research indicates that taking antioxyidants orally, even from fruits and veggies, is almost useless? The body doesn’t absorb antioxyidants through the oral route, and the body manufactures all the antioxys it needs by itself?

  528. #530 novalox
    July 15, 2012

    @leah

    [citation needed]

  529. #531 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Novalox,

    No, WE have to find her research for ourselves. I’m not an American, and I’m not about to call the FDA.

    Leah: dox or STFU. Understand?

  530. #532 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    I followed a link to a story in Natural News once and was quite shocked – everything is represented as fact – no argument – like the readers have been totally brain washed – very scary.

  531. #533 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @Leah

    Why should anyone call the FDA? You made the assertion, you should back it up.

    Let me guess why you don’t….Its all woooooooooo!

  532. #534 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I love the sensationalisitc photos that Mikey uses on Natural News. Also, most of the time the “headline” is equally sensationalistic but has little or nothing to do with the story. And in many cases the story is second or third hand and many years old, like the monkey/autism story they ran recently. And the comments are hilarious in and of themselves!

    Ever see the SNL episode where Jason Sudeikis plays the devil and says he was responsible for creating the “comments” section of websites?

  533. #535 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    Leah ( Zuvart – yes I know who you are) – that woman is totally loony, yet you altie girls all cheer her on. Have you tried to talk her into surgery? Do you care if she dies? Hell, it isn’t even confirmed she has breast cancer. If someone else tries to encourage another woman to at least have surgery, the altie bullies come out of the wood work and attack.

  534. #536 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    I did notice some of the alties called BS on the triple AIDS claim, and some other rational posters spoke up in favour of ARV drugs. So even in the altie forum there is some common sense.

  535. #537 Mrs Woo
    July 15, 2012

    Legal drug abuse makes me so angry. My condition is painful and I’m on a cocktail of various medications – tricyclics, anti-seizure meds, as well as narcotics and muscle relaxants. I’m one of the lucky ones – I had a seven year history of issues that often get medicated that I refused medication for. Finally the pain levels were just higher than my body actually could deal with and I had to do something. I have an established history with my primary care and he does my pain management because I was uninsured when I finally needed it.

    The scale of drug diversion and abuse makes it increasingly difficult for doctors to prescribe medication to legitimate patients who do everything right (and there are increasing lists of the rules for “everything right”). I just keep waiting for notification that it has gotten too dangerous for my doctor to prescribe pain medication to the few patients he chooses to do it for (he shared that it is pretty rare for him to do this – mostly poor and uninsured/underinsured patients). I also worry about how hard it might be to find pain management when he chooses to retire one day.

    One of the most frustrating things, though, is the media portrayal of it. They make it sound like every patient has no real need for treatment, they are all addicts, and the doctors prescribing those medications only do so for the profit involved – that none of it addresses real suffering and/or that the raids done leave legitimate patients in the throes of withdrawal just as much as the addicts.

  536. #538 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @afriend

    Leah = Zuvart? Makes sense. Ive read her posts. Another whack job.

  537. #539 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 15, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    Some of your points were addressed in the Tampa Bay Times. That’s one of the worst-struck areas in the US for legal drug abuse. The woman in the article would get a legit script, sell some of the pills on the street for a huge profit and keep the rest for herself, and then repeat the process. The MRI scam was one of her weapons, as doctors really have to be convinced the Oxys are really needed. Each script is filed with the federal authorities in the US, apparently.

    Here in Canada they’ve banned the old formulation of Oxys and have released a new version that is harder to abuse. But there are already instructions online on how to extract the active painkiller agents.

  538. #540 Leah
    July 15, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane. Protocel is non-toxic. Unlike chemotherapy, it’s not a carcinogen. Also, Protocel will not destroy your immune system or cause permanent changes or damage to the heart, lungs, nerves, kidneys, reproductive or other organs. Oh yes …and no hair loss, anemia, chemo brain etc. either. But don’t rely on me to educate you. Do your own research. Knowledge is power, my friend.

  539. #541 jergen
    July 15, 2012

    @Leah

    Of all the things you mentioned that chemo causes, Ive only had one. Hair loss. Knock it off chicken little.

  540. #542 AFriend
    July 15, 2012

    So protocel is non-toxic but you claim it can kill cancer – how does it do that?? Smiling at it?? It won’t damage your immune system, heart etc, so it probably doesn’t damage cancer either.

  541. #543 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Leah,

    That’s got nothing to do with what I asked. We address each and every point you raise, yet you ignore ours. You pick and choose what you’ll address and in the process throw more muck up in the air. What’s IN Protocel? It’s non-toxic because it’s useless. how do you know it’s even safe and pure to take internally? What safeguards are in place in the manufacturing process? How do you know the bottle you bought last month is the same as the one you’ll buy next month?

    You keep saying “do your own research”. You’re the one making the claims, so you’re the one who has to back them up. Many people have told you that here many times, and yet you persist. Are you stubborn or stupid? As I said, dox or STFU.

  542. #544 Mrs Woo
    July 16, 2012

    At Marc Stephens II – yes, Florida has a really bad reputation for pill mills. The new formula of oxy is available here, too. Since it is not generic yet, though, a lot of poor people need the older formulation just for that reason. For whatever reason a lot of prescription plans don’t want to pay for name brand when generic is available. I really wish they would have taken the health insurance companies out of the equation when they started playing with a national health care coverage plan. All it is is a parasite sucking money out of the middle and making everything more expensive. You have to pay all of those insurance processors, their bosses, their bosses’ bosses, and, of course, millions of dollars each year for the highest of upper management.

    There was one article I read recently that at least made a point of discussing some of the incoming patients and their confusion (and worry) when they showed up for their next appointment and had no way of getting refills. On the stronger pain medications, you can only use paper refills, so that definitely had to be a bad day. I was glad they at least included it with a neutral voice instead of painting the patient in any kind of light.

    @ Leah – since you are the one “selling” this product on this thread, please share the actual studies that show that it treats cancer any more effectively than a glass of water three times a day. When asked to provide evidence you seem more interested in providing ad hominem rants, painting oncologists as doctors who get to make a profit on chemotherapy (most don’t, as far as I know) and therefore have a vested interest in prescribing it versus alternative therapies.

    Now you’re doing “don’t rely on me to educate you” – you’re the one telling us this treatment work. Show us! Since it has been around for so long and been so successful, surely you have some kind of documentation to share, don’t you?

  543. #545 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    It always amazes at the raging hypocrisy in thr alt world. They won’t vaccinate because of “toxins”, then they’ll feed their kids bleach and give them bleach enemas (MMS). They won’t take real drugs from doctors but they’ll drink some stuff they bought from who-knows over the internet.
    Chemicals are bad but the chemicals in MMS and Protocel are good.

  544. #546 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Alright, let’s try this a different way.

    Leah, one simple question. WHY do you think Protocel works? What led you to that conclusion?

    OK, that’s actually two questions.

  545. #547 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    By the way, I’m watching a Family Guy episode right now that’s skewering Christian Scientists and their belief that prayer can cure anything. The CS parents won’t take their very sick kid to a doctor, and will pray instead. There have been lines in the show that sound like skeptics wrote them.

    Seth McFarlane has often made fun of woo. He did an episode about an alternative “healer” once too. It’s obvious how he feels about quackery.

  546. #548 Mrs Woo
    July 16, 2012

    I’ve been taken to two different faith healers.

    Apparently I lack faith (it couldn’t be their lack of faith, right?).

    It took me on quite a journey of self-doubt, to be honest. In a way Christianity is a very integral part of me – I don’t know how to completely let go of believing it, even though I disagree with much of how it is preached and practiced. But when I was told by one healer that I was possessed (supposed to be impossible if you are adequately Christian) and by another that if I would have faith I would have been healed, I had to wonder if there is such a thing as not enough faith after all, and if I had inadequate faith, could I believe in anything?

    Quite a philosophical exercise in the end.

  547. #549 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    @jergen
    [quote]“Leah = Zuvart? Makes sense. Ive read her posts. Another whack job.”[/quote]

    Based on the similar hatred and vitriol toward SBM permeating nearly every one of her posts, I was going for “Maud”.

    Still who knows how many nyms belong to these sociopathic toadies perched on BCO preaching useless scam cures to the women there.

    There’s a few who stand out as being quite obviously drunk on the Null and Adams Kool-Aid.

  548. #550 jergen
    July 16, 2012

    @sauceress

    Maud is rude and feels the need to capitalize and bold half of her posts. Plus, she posts enormous amounts of quackery links. Leah can’t back up her own quackery with other quackery links. So, I’m sticking with Zuvart. :)

  549. #551 Redloh
    Sulfuric acid!!! EEK! How natural.
    July 16, 2012

    Formulation and efficacy

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has listed the components as inositol, nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, and catechol. Precise formulation varies by manufacturer, and may include crocinic acid and various minerals and vitamins.[2]
    Researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) tested the constituents of Cancell in animal experiments in 1978 and 1980 and in vitro on human tumors in 1990 and 1991. They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body, and that further study was not warranted. No peer-reviewed clinical or animal trials of Cancell have demonstrated any positive effect; claims for Cancell’s efficacy are limited to anecdotal reports and testimonials.[1] The American Cancer Society and Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center recommend against the use of CanCell, as there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease, and its proposed method of action is not consistent with modern science.[3][2]

  550. #552 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    Yeah, you’re right. I am wondering how many other nyms “Zuvart” may have at BCO.

  551. #553 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    Redloh
    Sulfuric acid…yummy.

  552. #554 AFriend
    July 16, 2012

    I think Leah is Zuvart because of the way she expresses ‘overtreated’ ie ‘over treated’. Did a search of BCO to see how Zuvart says this and she uses a space between. I do notice no argument from Leah on my supposition :)

  553. #555 Leah
    July 16, 2012

    @Redloh, Sloan Kettering and The American Cancer Society are as useless as Quack Watch and RI. I strongly suggest that you roll up your sleaves quickly and find credible sources.

  554. #556 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    @afriend

    Nice research. And yes, still no “Im not Zuvart” so I think your right.

    Zuvart – if you don’t trust MSK and the ACS then post a link to a reputable source to back up your quackery.

  555. #557 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    Are you going to claim censorship?

  556. #558 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Leah is still ignoring all our questions and comments. I think she realizes she’s in w-a-a-a-a-a-a-y over her head arguing with people who are much smarter than she is. Or smarter than she thinks she is.

  557. #559 Leah
    July 16, 2012

    Leah is still debating whether to laugh or cry. She realizes that she w-a-a-a-s-t-i-n-g her time on a lazy bunch of air heads who actually think prescriptions drugs is a food group.

  558. #560 Chris
    Neither here nor there...
    July 16, 2012

    Is Leah still here? Since she is now speaking in third person, will she finally stick the flounce?

  559. #561 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    She was making fun of me, because I was writing about her and not to her.

    So Leah, still no answers, huh? Or eh, as we say up here in Canada?

    And you call us airheads? Doctors, surgeons, nurses, scientists, researchers, we’re all airheads are we?

    When did anyone here say anything remotely like drugs are a food group? It’s the alties like you who think food and vitamins are medicine.

    So why do you think Protocel works?

  560. #562 AFriend
    July 16, 2012

    And she can’t spell – it’s “sleeves”

  561. #563 Spectator
    July 16, 2012

    @Leah
    “Those” ask your doctor if chemicals are right for you” 30-second spots are powerful”

    Chemicals?
    You mean stuff like catecholamines, adenosine triphosphate, nitrogen-bearing molecules and lipids? If you don’t like chemicals you’re welcome to remove all of those from your system.

  562. #564 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    I don’t even bother to comment on spelling on blogs anymore.

    I’ve learned these blogs attract international readers and some people are writing in a second or third language. I admire and respect that. I couldn’t post on a foreign language blog and wouldn’t try.

    What does bug me, and I know it’s an uphill battle, is that very few people know when to use “it’s” versus “its” anymore.

    “It’s” is not possessive, but most people use it that way. I will correct it if I see it in my local newspaper, with insolence, because journalists and professional writers should know better. That’s their job. It’s inexcusable in a publication. It hurts my eyes to see it. In the comments section of a blog, though, it’s par for the course.

    Let’s not even talk about “their”, “there” and “they’re”.

    Can you tell I’m an English/journalism major?

  563. #565 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2012

    I explain, twice, why Lazarou is not a reliable source for an accurate estimate of fatal adverse drug reaction figures. I even provide a link to the full text of Lazarou’s paper so she can read it for herself and check I am telling the truth. Leah responds by citing Lazarou. Then she mocks us for being “a lazy bunch of air heads”.

  564. #566 Leah
    July 16, 2012

    @Marc Stephens is Insane, you wrote

    [And you call us airheads? Doctors, surgeons, nurses, scientists, researchers, we’re all airheads are we? ]

    YES! You think you make decisions based on medical evidence. In fact, half of medical evidence is hidden from doctors. And the half that’s hidden is the half that shows drugs don’t work.

    ((((((((((THE MEDICAL INDUSTRAIL COMPLEX)))))))

  565. #567 Leah
    July 16, 2012

    Because drug companies fund most of the research in the world, great therapies that work better like nutritional therapies and PROTOCEL never get enough funding.

    ((((((THE MEDICAL INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX)))))

  566. #568 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 16, 2012

    Leah, if you had read the actual FDA page rather than someone else’s biased misrepresentation of it, you’d see that their presentation of Lazarou’s figures come with a very important qualifier: “If these figures are to be believed.” Why would the FDA say “If these figures are to be believed” if there was no such question? Just using the phrase indicates that there is doubt (and if you had “done the research yourself” you’d have learned that there’s a lot of doubt that Lazarou’s extrapolation from a small sample to the entire nation is anywhere near meaningful) and representing it as if the FDA asserted it as fact with no reservations is just plain deception.

    Ultimatum question time, Leah: Under what single standard is it disrespectful to point out that a 75-year-old woman’s behavior is irrational when she self-diagnoses AIDS and then self-diagnoses herself as cured of AIDS, but perfectly respectful to claim Orac has a “Murder Degree”? Not answering within your next three comments will be taken as an affirmative admission that you have no answer, and are simply living by a double standard.

  567. #569 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 16, 2012

    the average American is taking around seven prescription drugs per year

    Wrong. The actual statistic is that the average American is filling around seven prescriptions per year. My wife uses the birth control pill (for a variety of reasons) that she has to refill every 4 weeks. I have a prescription for an Epi-pen that I need to refill every year (or sooner, should I ever actually have to use the thing). Between the two of us, that works out to 13+1=14 prescriptions filled per year. Or on average, 7 prescriptions filled per person per year.

  568. #570 novalox
    July 16, 2012

    @leah

    Relying on the old “Pharma shill gambit”, eh?

    Guess that means you acknowledge that your argument is without merit, since you have to resort to that tack, and that you automatically lose the argument.

    But I do admit, your rank ignorance is amusing to watch, and gives me a good laugh. So, keep it up, show your idiocy to the world.

  569. #571 Leah
    July 16, 2012

    @W. Kevin Vicklund

    Birth control pills = breast cancer.

  570. #572 Lawrence
    July 16, 2012

    Oh come on Leah – you really aren’t trying anymore, are you?

    What next? Deodorants cause breast cancer too?

    Do you know nothing more than to parrot the Null / Mercola playbook?

  571. #573 novalox
    July 16, 2012

    @leah

    [citation needed], because I do need a good laugh, and it would be amusing to see where in the world you made up that load of bollocks.

  572. #574 Thomas
    July 16, 2012

    Protocel=profit for Leah.

    How much $ do you make from each of you victims?

  573. #575 jergen
    July 16, 2012

    @Leah

    You write:

    “YES! You think you make decisions based on medical evidence. In fact, half of medical evidence is hidden from doctors. And the half that’s hidden is the half that shows drugs don’t work.”

    If the above were true, it would mean that all doctors are idiots who cannot think for themselves. Clearly that is not true. It would also mean that there is a great conspiracy at play. Do you have any idea what it would take to pull off a conspiracy of that magnitude? Leah – it doesn’t make sense. Why can’t you see that?

  574. #576 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2012

    Once you believe that some evil power is manipulating the very information you use to base your assessments about reality on, you are lost. Anything remotely suggestive of this being true is eagerly embraced, and anything that contradicts it is dismissed as being misinformation. To someone stuck in that self-confirming feedback loop it looks as if the rest of the world is composed of sheeple who need to open their eyes. Sad really.

  575. #577 ABCDEFG
    July 16, 2012

    If those supposed miracle cures actually worked, don’t you think “big pharma” would be producing similar substances under the name of a corporately related division and selling them over the counter in chain drug stores?

    Follow the money – if these things worked and all that these horrible evil drug companies were interested in were profits, they’d be selling their own versions….

    They don’t do that. I can’t imagine them giving up millions of dollars in legitimate business…those big drug companies must be very altruistic.

  576. #578 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    And of course 12 hours later and airhead Leah has yet to answer a single one of our questions.

    LEAH: WHY DO THINK PROTOCEL WORKS?!! (See, I can shout too.)

  577. #579 Scottynuke
    July 16, 2012

    *offering MSII the secret English/journalism handshake — hint, it involves creative use of the AP Stylebook* :-)

  578. #580 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Up here in Canada we use the CP (Canadian Press) stylebook. I still have two copies from the early 80s. And of course I have copies of “The Elements of Style” in every room of my house.

  579. #581 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Scotty,

    Interestingly (or maybe not…) although Canadians use the British spelling of words that end in “or” and add a “u” (eg honour, colour, rumour) the CP stylebook specifies “American” spelling for these words. The old rationale was to save ink and paper during the printing process. Each additional letter that wasn’t necessary (people understand color and honor) added to the cost of printing and made columns longer.

  580. #582 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Thomas,

    I’ve lost track of the heroes and villains in this piece. Does Leah actually sell Protocel?

    Where’s Black-cat and thenewme? I thought they’d enjoy the past day’s worth of conversation.

  581. #583 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Even other quacks recommend avoiding Protocel:

    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400820/Protocel-A-Bogus-Cancer-Cure.html

    Weil is one of the worst of the mainstream woomeisters. If he says it’s useless, well, that speaks volume.

  582. #584 Shay
    July 16, 2012

    “Leah – it doesn’t make sense. Why can’t you see that?”

    I think it was Upton Sinclair who said that you can’t make someone understand something if their paycheck depends on them not understanding.

    Leah sells a product that has not been proven to work for over half a century. If she ever acknowledged that, or if she ever stopped trying to persuade cancer patients to switch to her product, her cash flow would take a serious hit, so of course she doesn’t see that.

    Besides, conspiracy theories are so much easier and more exciting that silly ol’ things like, y’know…evidence.

  583. #585 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 16, 2012

    Can Orac get us out of italics hell here? Is there a magic wand he can wave, or some incantations he can chant to the SB gods to get us back to regular font?

  584. #586 jergen
    July 16, 2012

    @shay

    Evidence. What a concept!

  585. #587 Thomas
    July 16, 2012

    “I’ve lost track of the heroes and villains in this piece. Does Leah actually sell Protocel?”

    No one would spend this much time shilling for a product that they don’t make big bucks for – isn’t that the ‘logic’ that Leah promotes…

  586. #588 Scottynuke
    July 16, 2012

    MSII — It’s always all about squeezing the copy into the space leftover after the ads, right? *SIGH*

    I’ve always wanted to see the CP Stylebook entry on “eh,” yanno… : – )

  587. #589 thenewme
    July 16, 2012

    Ahhhh…… the silence…. maybe Leah has stuck the flounce after all? Or maybe she’s just consulting the playbook.

  588. #590 novalox
    July 16, 2012

    @thenewme

    Whatever playbook leah’s been using, it isn’t working, unless she intentionally planned to make herself look like a fool.

  589. #591 thenewme
    July 16, 2012

    @novalox,
    It’s fabulous, isn’t it?? I *love* the discriminating audience here! I wish the same could be said for BCO, where she and her cohorts deliver their message directly to a target audience.

  590. #592 D
    July 16, 2012

    This site and Quackwatch provide excellent marketing for Protocel and other remedies.I always check here for tips.

    I hadn’t heard of Protocel until you all began publicizing it. Now it’s become a must-have. Do you get an affiliate fee?

    Thanks for the alt med tips!

  591. #593 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    [

    If those supposed miracle cures actually worked, don’t you think “big pharma” would be producing similar substances under the name of a corporately related division and selling them over the counter in chain drug stores?

    Exactly!
    Yet even more cognitive dissonance is required for the anti-Big Pharma crowd to presume that fiercely competitive pharmaceutical companies all over the world are all in on one massive conspiracy. Reality it ain’t!

  592. #594 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    Ooops… above quoting of ABCDEFG (11:13 am)

    @D
    “Thanks for the alt med tips!”

    Your welcome.

  593. #595 Sauceress
    July 16, 2012

    Oh and you’re welcome too Leah.

  594. #596 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    @marc

    Thanks so much for the heads up on that horrible website. I’m looking at it now. I wonder if she is on bco So far I am not making any conncections between the too, but you never know. . I will let you know what I think when I am done reading all the scary crap that she has up. I have had trouble with some of my posts on this site, also and have posted the same post multiple times.

    I am positve that Leah is JoyLiesWithin. She outed herself on the think outside the box website when she posted that I had” met my match and that she knew my weak spots and was going to come over here and poke me.”

    She materialized on RI right after that as Leah. When she was accused of sneering at my cancer diagnosis she went right back to BCO and posted as JoyLiesWIithin, that Orac and his commentators laugh at stage 4 women with breast cancer. She was projecting obviously. She also livies in Australia, which explains the posts on the dumb americans.

    The others are not so clear as they did not out themselves.

    I think that Maud is Boudicca. I can’t find her on this thread at the moment to point out where it is. She’s only posted once.

    Lucy sure smells like lucy88.

    The others are not that obvious as they did not out themselves like she did.

  595. #597 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    I have no idea who D is.

  596. #598 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    I saw that. I got a kick out of her too.

  597. #599 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    @black-cat

    Joy was having a fit on BCO when you were posting over here initially. It was a blast to watch!

  598. #600 Black-cat
    bcoblackcat@gmail.com
    July 16, 2012

    Jergen, I don’t know why my post showed up before yours but it was an answer to you. I have no idea who you are or any of the other skeptics from BCO. I have a guess on who AFriend is but certainly won’t post it. I think you are all wise for not posting your BCO names. The alites are certainly safe. Alties promoting quackery and BCO are encouraged to do so. Would love to hear from you and any other skeptics from over there. I miss my peeps.

  599. #601 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    I have followed your posts as well as thenewme for a while. Both of you have been calm and caring when trying to help some of the ladies on BCO. In return, you were attacked by those crazy alties. As you have mentioned before, the minute you challenge any altie “remedy” they come out and attack. I find it disgusting that they would lead people away from conventional treatment and recruit them into la la land. I’ve learned a lot from your posta and that is why I’m here!

  600. #602 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    Boudicca

    July 11, 5:16 pm = Maud

  601. #603 Militant Agnostic
    July 16, 2012

    I guess we didn’t use enough ALL CAPS to convince D.

  602. #604 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    Jergen, I am glad you and the others are here. Feels good not to take that train to crazy town, anymore!!! RI is a breath of fresh air compared to the BCO alite sites.

    Here’s a little history of BCO and why the alties get away with all their crap. A few years ago some women claimed that they were stalked and threatened over their views on BCO. It was in a couple of newspapers and two women were interveiwed on the news. The newscaster also interviewed the physician owner at BCO’s office in Pa.

    Because of all the bad publicity this was generating, BCO bent over backwards to make sure everyone played nice. Whenever I point out that Vivre is selling Usana or promoting her quack website, the alties whine that I am stalking her and attack me. Poor poor vivre will more often whne on how she is just trying to help people with her NON PROFIT WEBSITE. That trashy website is clearly not a non profit and vivre never applied for non profit status for anything. I checked. Nevertheless, I get a warning email from the mods accussing me of stalking vivre abd if I don’t stop, they will ban me. If I in turn try to point out that vivre is peddling her crap on BCO and trying to scare newly diagnosed women from getting treatmen from their real doctors and trying to persuade them to buy vivre’s books(amazon bookstore) or crap from her website, I get a reply that she is just expressing her opinion and that is not against forum rules.

  603. #605 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    I don’t know if you remember but there was only one CAM forum. Because of all the fighting the physician owner made the decision to have a seperate alternative forum. This forum is only for those interested and participating in alternative treatment. It’s right there in the forum rules. The mods have emailed me and suggested that since I was not clearly into alternative medicine and was not being respectful of those who were, that I should respectfully stay out of that forum. They would point out the altie forum rules to clarify this forum is exclusively for alties only and that I clearly don’t have any business posting there.

  604. #606 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    The constant bitching and moaning they do is simply amazing. Sometimes I feel like I have wandered into a high school gym. The passive aggressive tone of their posts are clearly not a concern of BCO. I was actually told by one of those crazy alties that I was a sheep who blindly followed my MO because I chose conventional treatment and didn’t understand the benefit of Paw paw and grape seed extract. And, how dare I question the discussion in an alternative thread. Ahhhh, ok. That was all I had to know about their crazy ways. When I asked why they were making huge sweeping negative comments about chemo side effects that were not true for all patients (myself included) I was reported to the mods.

  605. #607 Jergen
    July 16, 2012

    I have not been on BCO long but after a short time I just went looking for Albert Einstein and the orange towel because I knew I would find thoughtful and well thought out posts.

  606. #608 Black-cat
    July 16, 2012

    Thanks. Thenewme has been at it much longer than me and has spent a great deal more time than me trying to be the voice of reason in those forums.

    Speaking of a high school gym ,Dr Weiss, who is the owner to the site, spends her time penning simplistic and patronizing articles on the site.

    I guess that is how she justifies her generous salary.
    This one article of hers comes to mind. It’s proper hygeine which we were all taught in 4th grade by the gym teacher.

    Thank you, Dr. Weiss, for educationg us poor ignorant slobs on how to properly clean ourselves.

    http://community.breastcancer.org/livegreen/feminine-hygiene-cleaning-up-down-there/

  607. #609 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    I have to admit that what confuses me is why telling someone the truth is considered “attacking” them. When someone holds dangerous beliefs and is attempting to share them with others (in dangerous I mean life-threatening or possibly physically dangerous, like delaying proven cancer treatment while taking bogus treatments, or a “supplement” that can be harmful like “colloidal minerals”), even if you can’t make the person who holds it change their mind if you can at least get others to question whether or not the person’s information is valid, you can hopefully save a few.

    It’s the equivalent of having someone say, “This uncompleted bridge really is done; let’s all go drive across to the other side,” when it’s dark and foggy. If you know the span ends 100 feet before the other side you have an obligation to let everyone who is getting in their car to be the first ones across the bridge know that they are going to end up crashing into the chasm/river below. It’s really that simple.

    Now if there were only a way to intervene with the Mr Woos of the world. He has decided to take the colloidal mineral supplement since I haven’t been… I guess I should move it into my bathroom with a spoon and put the daily dose in the toilet every day? At least it would be one less bottle of aluminum, cadmium and all those other “missing” minerals he doesn’t get from our “depleted soils.”

  608. #610 Calli Arcale
    July 17, 2012

    Just checking to see if posting a close-italic tag would help with the formatting….

  609. #611 Calli Arcale
    July 17, 2012

    Nope. Darn. Sorry.

  610. #612 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 17, 2012

    To Redloh, who said,
    ““Sulfuric acid!!! EEK! How natural.
    “Formulation and efficacy
    “The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has listed the components as inositol, nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, and catechol. Precise formulation varies by manufacturer, and may include crocinic acid and various minerals and vitamins.[2]
    Researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) tested the constituents of Cancell in animal experiments in 1978 and 1980 and in vitro on human tumors in 1990 and 1991. They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body, and that further study was not warranted. No peer-reviewed clinical or animal trials of Cancell have demonstrated any positive effect; claims for Cancell’s efficacy are limited to anecdotal reports and testimonials.[1] The American Cancer Society and Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center recommend against the use of CanCell, as there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease, and its proposed method of action is not consistent with modern science.[3][2]”

    Have you actually SEEN those 1990 in vitro test results? If you have, you would not believe the above lies that Cancell or Protocel can’t kill cancer cells or that “there is no evidence that it is effective in treating any disease.” The NCI is lying to you and you believe the lies.

  611. #613 John J. Luce
    Manassas, VA
    July 17, 2012

    To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said:
    “Alright, let’s try this a different way.
    Leah, one simple question. WHY do you think Protocel works? What led you to that conclusion?
    OK, that’s actually two questions.”

    One simple answer. Because it was shown to be effective in killing cancer cells when tested by the NCI. And people have become cancer-free using it. OK, that’s actually two answers.

  612. #614 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    @John J Luce – I haven’t seen them, but I read a qualifier in this that apparently you have missed –

    “They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”

    That says to me that they might have seen anti-tumor properties in the in vitro studies, but when they extrapolated that to doses high enough to be useful in the human body, the amount required was prohibitive either because of sheer volume required or side effects that would have been common because of the quantity of the more harmful ingredients ingested.

    Just because something works in a culture or test tube does not necessarily mean it will be effective in the human body.

  613. #615 Shay
    July 17, 2012

    John: If Protocel does work, why have there been no successful clinical trials (on real people as opposed to cultures) in the past seventy years?

  614. #616 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    Shhh Shay – now he is going to tell us either the “look at all these positive anecdotes” thing or the “there would be no profit in it for Big Pharma without being able to patent it, so no one will invest the money to let us prove it works.”

    Wow, I’ve been hanging around woo too long. It’s getting predictable.

    Maybe we’ll get lucky and John will come up with something more interesting?

  615. #617 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2012

    I don’t think anyone has posted this link to a short article about Cancell. It’s worth a read for those interested.

  616. #618 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Mrs Woo, who said:
    @John J Luce – I haven’t seen them, but I read a qualifier in this that apparently you have missed –
    “They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”
    That says to me that they might have seen anti-tumor properties in the in vitro studies, but when they extrapolated that to doses high enough to be useful in the human body, the amount required was prohibitive either because of sheer volume required or side effects that would have been common because of the quantity of the more harmful ingredients ingested.
    Just because something works in a culture or test tube does not necessarily mean it will be effective in the human body.

    WHY haven’t you seen them? Do you really care about this subject? Do you really want the truth? Do you want to know ALL the facts or just mock people who may actually have more information than you do? Ordinarily I would not waste my time trying to convince the inconvincible. I don’t think you “skeptics” really want to find a cure for cancer. Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat. Well, don’t worry. Just keep up your “healthy” skepticism and keep looking for the elusive cure. There will still be research dollars or medicare payments flowing endlessly to keep your paychecks coming. At least for now.

    Wow…that felt good to get that out!

    Now then, back to your post….

    You quote, “They concluded that the compounds comprising Cancell could not be taken in doses high enough to kill cancer cells in the body…”

    First, it’s “the compounds comprising Cancell” —not Cancell itself with all its ingredients combined. You know from elementary chemistry class that when two or more elements or compounds are combined, you usually have a totally different story than any one or more separate from the others. Have you eaten any pure sodium lately? Or pure chlorine? Oh, just sodium chloride? So that statement is a smoke screen and a non-issue.

    Secondly, why do you believe that statement? How did they come to that conclusion? Did they conduct human trials on “the compounds comprising Cancell,” if they even know what they are?

    You can use wonderfully critical thinking to attack Cancell except when you read something that you want to believe is true based on your own groundless presuppositions. Why don’t you think critically when Cancell is being attacked? Be a skeptic of THAT and make them prove everything they say. Or are you too closed-minded or pre-judgmental for that?

    Wow…that felt good, too!

  617. #619 Redloh
    July 17, 2012

    What proof do you have that Protocel was the catalyst that made anyone cancer free? Oh wait, I know, because the people who sell it said so.

  618. #620 Shay
    July 17, 2012

    John:

    Why haven’t there been any successful clinical trials?

    (golly, that felt good too).

  619. #621 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Redloh, who said,

    “What proof do you have that Protocel was the catalyst that made anyone cancer free? Oh wait, I know, because the people who sell it said so.”

    No, many people were made cancer-free who took ONLY Cancell, for example, back when it was given away free. Thousands of bottles were given away free, so no seller had to say that, because there WAS no seller. But that gets expensive for the people whose only motivation is to help people, not make money. You try that. All the expenses can drain you. We won’t mention the millions (or is it billions?) made by the big pharms after spending millions to go through the drug-approval process. The inventor of Entelev/Cancell/Protocel did not have millions to do that, nor did anyone want to invest millions in that with no promise of recouping any of it.

    Even today, many people are given only months to live by conventional medicine, so they turn to things like Protocel and after a few months with nothing but Protocel end up cancer-free. If it wasn’t the Protocel, what would you say? God healed them? I can live with that, but can YOU?

  620. #622 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2012

    More on the in vitro CanCell experiments here. They used CanCell itself, not constituents thereof. Many things kill cancer cells in vitro, including a blowtorch, which is extremely effective.
    Apposite quote:

    Based on the manufacturer’s recommended doses of a marketed brand of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel it has been calculated that under idealized conditions of absolutely no loss of the constituents after administration to a patient (i.e., 100% bioavailability, meaning no loss due to degradation, absorption in the body, or rapid excretion—an unlikely situation), the maximum concentration that could be achieved in the plasma of an average 154-lb male is 29 μg/mL (antilog of 1.46). Thus, under these highly idealized conditions Cancell/Cantron/Protocel may exhibit some mild inhibitory effect on the growth of some cancer cells, but it would not be expected to inhibit their growth completely or to kill them. There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient.

    Some animal experiments were also done, and I’m trying to track down those results as well.

  621. #623 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    If you look at one of the hundreds of pages of Cancell propaganda on John J. Luce’s Facebook page (I guess he sells the Cancell version) you’ll see the oral dose is only a quarter teaspoon (about 1.25 milllilitres) twice a day. Must be some pretty powerful stuff to “work” with such miniscule doesages.

    And John J. Luce, do you also claim Cancell cures AIDS, epilepsy (in FIVE SECONDS, according to the Facebook page) and hundreds of other diseases? Or is your “market” strictly the gullible cancer patients?

    I still want to know what led Leah to believe it works, but it appears she’s buggered off. Chickenshit.

  622. #624 Chemmomo
    Where actual scientists do science
    July 17, 2012

    John J Luce
    10:30 am Jul 17

    The NCI is lying to you and you believe the lies.

    And who’s lying to you?

    Here’s the Appendix to those results from 1990 – 1992 you’ve been trumpeting http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cancell/HealthProfessional/Page8#Section_29
    Here’s what I learned when I read it. The tests done back in 1990 and 1991 were designed to determine the concentrations needed to kill cells. In other words, they increased the concentrations until they achieved killing cells. Then they went back and compared those concentrations to the manufacturer’s recommended doses. Since there were no pharmacokinetic studies available, they assumed 100% bioavailility – in others, as if all the mixture ingested would reach the target cells inside the body.

    The researchers’ conclusion (my emphasis):

    Thus, under these highly idealized conditions Cancell/Cantron/Protocel may exhibit some mild inhibitory effect on the growth of some cancer cells, but it would not be expected to inhibit their growth completely or to kill them. There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient.

    Here’s what the American Chemical Society had to say about it (my emphasis) http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/ComplementaryandAlternativeMedicine/PharmacologicalandBiologicalTreatment/cancell

    Animal studies of Entelev® and Cancell® by the National Cancer Institute (NCI) in 1978 and 1980 found it lacked anti-cancer activity. The NCI performed another series of tests in 1990 and 1991 using human cancer cells and again did not find enough anti-cancer activity to warrant further testing.

    Apparently, you are the only person who thinks that these 30+ year old in vitro results show anything worthwhile.

  623. #625 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2012

    Thanks for sorting out the italics Orac.
    To add to Chemmomo’s comment, the NCI also says of CanCell:

    To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.

  624. #626 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    I forgot to mention on John J. Luce’s Facebook page beside the oral dosage CanCell can also be applied rectally, by squirting some up you-know-where. Shades of MMS!

    Why are these lunatics so obsessed with enemas and inserting things rectally? Does that add to the allure, or the mysticism?

  625. #627 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    @John J Luce – thank you for the wonderfully amusing attack. I don’t have access to journals, etc., through work and can’t afford to keep that kind of access on my own. In what was posted earlier, though, it sounded like researchers didn’t find adequate concentrations of the protocel/cancell/etc., in the body to do anything in their tests. That for me is an immediate “aha” moment, because a lot of things purveyed as alternative cures for cancer often fall into that predicament. When I have been able to find studies that are done on a lot of these compounds (either in vitro testing or real, double-blinded trials, not a whole bunch of anecdotes with little to no proof available), if there was any possible anti-tumor activity it is usually in vitro and either too toxic to be given in the human body in large enough doses to have any effect, or just fails to have a strong enough effect in the body. This is, of course, in its own way my own anecdote. I’m speaking from experience more than anything else here (we had a lot of “research” that went on in this house through three different family members’ cancer journeys; Mr Woo, of course, loves alternative cancer therapy).
    On this assertion here:

    No, many people were made cancer-free who took ONLY Cancell, for example, back when it was given away free. Thousands of bottles were given away free, so no seller had to say that, because there WAS no seller. But that gets expensive for the people whose only motivation is to help people, not make money. You try that. All the expenses can drain you. We won’t mention the millions (or is it billions?) made by the big pharms after spending millions to go through the drug-approval process. The inventor of Entelev/Cancell/Protocel did not have millions to do that, nor did anyone want to invest millions in that with no promise of recouping any of it.

    Even today, many people are given only months to live by conventional medicine, so they turn to things like Protocel and after a few months with nothing but Protocel end up cancer-free. If it wasn’t the Protocel, what would you say? God healed them? I can live with that, but can YOU?

    How many? Was this a clinical trial? How were the results and outcomes measured? How long did they remain cancer free (if they were ever declared cancer free) before recurrence? Were there any deaths or side effects? How many? Did side effects make any discontinue treatment or were the side effects manageable?

    What stage of disease were these patients in when the treatment started? Since cancer is many diseases, not one, which kinds of cancer were studied? How effective was it with each cancer? What other drugs or supplements or diet changes were done at this time? Were any of them addressed as possible confounding factors?

    If there are studies you can share, please get me links to them so I can see what they determined. I’m not going to dance around like I just scored some sort of “point” or anything on this – this isn’t about making me or you look uninformed or unintelligent or unhinged. This is about others who might come across this and/or lurk here who debate this issue and haven’t come down on one side or the other yet, and the occasional person who might be moved to understand better that their brain can be fooled and will choose to find things that assure it what it wants to be is true while dismissing evidence that might change its mind. I want people to learn critical thinking skills. I want them to realize why these terribly expensive studies, and lots of them, are necessary to demonstrate that things said to treat illness are truly effective.

    This whole system started because of a concern that people might be paying money, sometimes a lot of it, for something that would be no more effective for their illness than a spoonful of sugar or a glass of water. In order to be accepted and used, compounds must be demonstrated to work better than nothing while blinding for all of the things that a patient or researcher’s prejudices and cognitive glitches might add into the mix that aren’t “real” – i.e., the placebo effect, confirmation biases, etc.

    The argument for “proof” isn’t because people don’t want to believe; it’s because we want to believe in something that can be demonstrated as truly effective because it’s a waste of money and time to be a patient taking a bogus treatment and sometimes can even be deadly to let them do so.

  626. #628 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Shay, who said,

    “John:
    “Why haven’t there been any successful clinical trials?
    (golly, that felt good too).”

    I don’t know all the answers, but lack of money is surely part of it. How much would YOU like to contribute toward the expense of doing that? It’s for a good cause, so don’t expect any return on your money, okay?

    The things James Sheridan and Ed Sopcak (both died in 2001) went through to try to get their formula approved by the FDA would make a good book or movie. Suffice it to say, however, it never happened. If you really want to know the story, send me your email address and I can send you something about it. I’m at johnjluce@gmail.com. I also have a DVD that has interviews of both men that tells some of the story.

    I have much information, including the NCI’s 1990 in vitro test results, in my Facebook album at:
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.109225998965.93145.604043965&type=3&l=dcadbc1843

    I am not a seller nor am I in any way connected to any seller of any of this. And I do not benefit financially by anyone buying or using this stuff. I only found out about it by word of mouth—my sister, who was dealing with her mother-in-law who had cancer and lived on a hospital bed in their living room. I truly do not think anyone connected to this stuff is in it for the money. It just isn’t that money-driven, as evidenced by the thousands of bottles given away free in the early days of development, and the relatively low cost per month of using it today. And I cannot understand why anyone would think “money” and ignore the millions made by others in the cancer industry. It is so hypocritical.

    I also despise the mocking of people of faith that appears on this blog. That is so pathetic. There needs to be some respect and understanding and, yes, compassion. Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves for the way you treat people of faith. Just because you are atheists or agnostics or secularists is no reason to mock others who hold to a Judaeo-Christian tradition. Cancer touches people of all walks of life and they all have different, meaningful-to-them ways of dealing with it. If you are in the health-care field, whether as a doctor, nurse, researcher, or other similar professional, you need to make allowances for the people you are caring for or with whom you associate.

  627. #629 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    Lack of money=no clinical trials. Ahhh, the old Burzynski excuse. If this ProtoCanCelEntelev garbage showed even a trace of a whiff of potential, there would be truckloads of money flowing in from everywhere to follow up. Every manufacturer would want in to try to market it themselves.

    And patents have nothing to do with drug company profitiablity. There are several brands of “aspirin” on the shelves of my local pharmacy from different manufacturers. They are all making plenty of money off a “non-patentable” (in many countries) medication.

  628. #630 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    I admit, John, that this was a long thread and I’m leaving soon and in a hurry, but I didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread?

    When it comes to religion, usually that is a hands off kind of thing here, with people choosing to be respectful of most faith journeys. I am a person of faith and have never encountered mockery for my beliefs here, even with a name like Mrs Woo (which had to make them wonder what side I was on at first).

    Please understand that my actual goal is to make you think and realize where your mind plays tricks on you. What you are resorting to now, without attacking any one person, is “ad hominem” – you are attacking personality and behavior and not the subject at hand because you can kind of feel that you don’t have adequate backing to actually defend CanCell/Cantron/Protocel, etc. I think it’s a natural defensive response in arguments like these when you run out of ammunition for the real fight.

    There are even a lot of researchers and medical professionals that are people who still choose to practice a religion and believe in a higher power than themselves. This is a bogus argument. Please realize we’re more worried about people dying from untreated cancer than whether or not they believe in G-d, and prefer attacking poor/lacking research, unfounded claims, etc.

  629. #631 AdamG
    July 17, 2012

    Mr. Luce, I see that you have what I presume to be the actual data from the NCI study on your facebook page. I have a few questions.

    1. What concentration of the compound was needed to slow cell growth? What concentration was needed to stop cell growth?

    2. How does this concentration compare to the recommended dose of Protocel? If it’s higher or lower, how was this dose chosen?

    3. Why didn’t the compound work on all cancer cell lines? Is Protocel marketed toward the treatment of specific cancers, dictated by the NCI results? Why or why not?

    4. How do the results of this NCI study compare to the results of a study in which a compound was approved by the NCI for clinical trials? Here’s one example to get you started:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467219

    And some highly recommended background reading:
    http://dtp.nci.nih.gov/branches/tpb/toxicology_pharmacology_primer.htm

    If you are truly interested in learning, I hope you give these questions some honest thinking.

  630. #632 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    I respect anyone’s beliefs in almost anything (except $cientology or other destructive cults) but it’s the religious angle all these products use that bugs me. The “cures” were given by god and it’s god responsible for any cure. If you don’t believe in that god you are apparently not welcome or eligible to be treated.

    We covered this subject a couple of weeks ago. All the Protocel websites I’ve seen look more like church websites than medical sites, and every second word is “praise god” or “praise Jesus.” The sites the MIA Leah cited all are full of those statements.

    I asked a question back then that no one answered, so I’ll ask it again. And this is not trying to be antagonistic or disrespectful. It’s a serious question from a non-believer:

    If someone’s god cured them of cancer, for instance, then why did that same god give them cancer in the first place? To make them suffer?

    I’m reminded of a joke. There’s a horrible flood, and the water is rising rapidly. Rescue workers in boats float up and down streets saving anyone left behind. One religioius woman, when offered a boat ride, said “no thanks, god will save me.” The next day the water rose higher and the woman could only stay on the second floor of her house. Again, a rescue boat came by and she said “no thanks, god will save me.” By the third day the water was so high she had to go out on the roof. Again, she refused the boat rescue. “No thanks, god will save me.” Day four came and she drowned. When she got to heaven she asked god why he didn’t save her. He looked a bit annoyed and said “my child, I sent you three boats…”

  631. #633 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Mrs Woo, who said

    I admit, John, that this was a long thread and I’m leaving soon and in a hurry, but I didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread?

    When it comes to religion, usually that is a hands off kind of thing here, with people choosing to be respectful of most faith journeys. I am a person of faith and have never encountered mockery for my beliefs here, even with a name like Mrs Woo (which had to make them wonder what side I was on at first).

    Please understand that my actual goal is to make you think and realize where your mind plays tricks on you. What you are resorting to now, without attacking any one person, is “ad hominem” – you are attacking personality and behavior and not the subject at hand because you can kind of feel that you don’t have adequate backing to actually defend CanCell/Cantron/Protocel, etc. I think it’s a natural defensive response in arguments like these when you run out of ammunition for the real fight.

    There are even a lot of researchers and medical professionals that are people who still choose to practice a religion and believe in a higher power than themselves. This is a bogus argument. Please realize we’re more worried about people dying from untreated cancer than whether or not they believe in G-d, and prefer attacking poor/lacking research, unfounded claims, etc.

    You “didn’t find anything actually being verbally abusive to people of faith in this thread”? On July 6th, I told the story of Elonna McKibben, as follows:

    John J. Luce
    July 6, 11:53 am

    So, Cancell never made it into human trials, except the thousands of humans who tried it on their own and astonished their oncologists with amazing results, including being declared cancer-free, not for just 5 years but for decades. Elonna McKibben had a malignant tumor on her spinal cord while pregnant with quintuplets. After giving birth, she was diagnosed and told she would not live to see her babies’ first birthday. Two years on Cancell resulted in her being cured of her cancer. Her children are in their twenties today and Elonna is still alive and cancer-free. She took NO conventional chemo or radiation, which she was told would have left her a paraplegic until she died. Instead she tried Cancell, nothing but Cancell, and she is cured.

    To that story, “Marc Stephens is insane” posted twice, as follows:

    Marc Stephens Is Insane (2 posts)

    1. July 6, 12:38 pm
    Check out Elonna’s deluded, unintentionally hilarious website here:
    http://www.elonnamckibben.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=63
    It’s full of religious garbage and thanking the lord for miracles, biblical quotes ,etc. etc.

    So was it the magical syrup she took or her lord saving her? If prayer is enough why does anyone have to spend $500 every 20 days for this crap that someone cooks up in his basement on a hotplate?

    Mr. Luce, you must be a shill for Protocell. How much do you get paid for promoting this dangerous, useless garbage?

    2. July 6, 1:04 pm

    Why is the Christian aspect so vital to this stuff, as well as MMS? Elonna’s website says that Sheridan was a Christian and that Protocell was provided by god as part of a “program”. He dreamed about a rainbow and saw the healing potential in the colours, or some nonsense like that. all due to a gift from above, of course.

    This Protocell testimonial is from a faith healing website. Note this man had both surgery and chemo before trying the Protocell, but it was god who healed him.
    http://www.believeinhishealing.com/
    (Of course they also sell Protocell…)

    Does that mean Protocell doesn’t work on Jews, Muslims or atheists, etc? Why do I have to believe in a sky fairy for a medicine to work? And if your god wanted to cure you from cancer, why did he give you cancer in the first place?

    Sorry to rant, but the quackery combined with the religious mumbo-jumbo makes me angry.

  632. #634 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    I stand by everything I wrote. I was writing in the context of religion and medicine. Maybe my language was a bit strong for you but whether medicine works or not, or whether someone is healed or not, has nothing to do with any beliefs in any deity.

  633. #635 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    And faith healing is full of crap. No one can cure anyone or anything by “laying on of hands.” See our reiki discussion for more on that subject.

    I don’t believe in John of God, or Benny Hinn, or Peter Popoff, who all claim to heal by touch (or in JoG’s case, sometime not even by touch). They are all con artists, rich beyond belief, taking advantage of desperate and gullible people.

    I’m sorry if that offends you, but it’s call rap.

  634. #636 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    Last line should have read: …but it’s all crap.

    And John J. Luce, if words offend you maybe you should have a talk with your friend Leah who has launched some nasty personal attacks here at several people, including our host Orac. She accused him of murder. Anything I wrote pales in comparison to her nasty and venomous, personal attacks.

  635. #637 AdamG
    July 17, 2012

    Mr. Luce, if you’re done being such a special little snowflake who just can’t stand being offended then maybe you’ll have a gander at the completely non-offensive questions in my comment at 3:51pm.

  636. #638 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    The late. great George Carlin on religion. I believe he coined the term “invisible sky fairy.”

    John J. Luce, don’t watch this comedy clip. It’ll offend you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

  637. #639 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said:

    I respect anyone’s beliefs in almost anything (except $cientology or other destructive cults) but it’s the religious angle all these products use that bugs me. The “cures” were given by god and it’s god responsible for any cure. If you don’t believe in that god you are apparently not welcome or eligible to be treated.

    We covered this subject a couple of weeks ago. All the Protocel websites I’ve seen look more like church websites than medical sites, and every second word is “praise god” or “praise Jesus.” The sites the MIA Leah cited all are full of those statements.

    I asked a question back then that no one answered, so I’ll ask it again. And this is not trying to be antagonistic or disrespectful. It’s a serious question from a non-believer:

    If someone’s god cured them of cancer, for instance, then why did that same god give them cancer in the first place? To make them suffer?

    Your question is a valid question that probably no finite being, least of all ME, can answer adequately in a brief (or even lengthy) post on a forum such as this. Whole books have been written on subjects like, Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? The subject involves knowing why things happen and why an all-powerful, all-loving, and all-just, infinite Being does or allows what He does or allows. Any answer I would attempt would be disputed by you because it didn’t cover every contingency or happenstance, and you could probably think up dozens of “What about…? ‘s that I didn’t think of when I first gave my answer. You asked the question, but you should not be surprised that no one answered.

    Let me offer this thought, however. ALL healing, in my humble opinion, comes from God. Even if the person is YOU, a total non-believer, getting the healing and you didn’t even ask Him for it, because, say, you don’t even believe He exists. If you got healed, HE did it. Now, He uses different ways to do that. Sometimes He uses conventional medicine, sometimes alternative approaches, sometimes nothing but the simple prayer of a humble seeker. WHY that person got sick in the first place is anybody’s guess. Sometimes the person abused his body—maybe smoked, drank excessively, ate junk food, whatever. We are all free moral agents, not robots, and God has given us a great deal of freedom to act. Sometimes we are responsible and do the right things, health-wise, and sometimes we don’t. When we get sick, it might be a warning sign that gets us to take a second look at what we have been doing that was not good that made us sick. Or, who knows, maybe God let us get sick to draw us to Himself. When we come to the end of ourselves, we are forced to look outside of ourselves, perhaps even UP to Him. In times like those, we are forced to acknowledge two things— there is a God and we are not Him! We must acknowledge His sovereignty—He has total control, even when things look totally out of control, ultimately He is in control. And there is the element of timing. Things don’t always happen how and when we want. He controls that too.

    Whenever I get sick, and let’s say I’m lying on my back in my sick bed, I always ask, What did I do to deserve this? What can I do to get rid of this? Have you ever read the book of Job? Job didn’t do anything bad to deserve all he went through. There was a greater purpose in God’s allowing Job to go through all he did. We may never understand it and neither did Job. If you read the whole book, all 42 chapters, you find that God never explained to Job why he had to go through all he did. Well, at some point he must have, since Job wrote the book and it tells why. But in the story, God is Boss. He doesn’t have to give anyone an explanation for anything!

    With all that in mind, you should not be surprised that people of faith, like Elonna McKibben, has a lot of “religious mumbo jumbo” on her website. She wants to give her God the glory for the healing she received, after conventional medicine said she would not survive her cancer to see her babies’ first birthday. She would say God used Cancell to give her that healing, but ultimately she is going to praise God, so HE gets the glory, not Cancell. Consider this: No matter what medicine or radiation or alternative a person uses, if God isn’t in it and use it, that person will die. Period.

    I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn. Not always. But more often than not.

  638. #640 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    Re:

    I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn

    God has cancer?

  639. #641 JK
    July 17, 2012

    “Consider this: No matter what medicine or radiation or alternative a person uses, if God isn’t in it and use it, that person will die. Period.

    I just happen to think God uses Protocel more than cut/poison/burn. Not always. But more often than not.”

    Well, John J. Luce, if that’s the case – why would anyone use anything at all?

    How many immortals are there?

  640. #642 Militant Agnostic
    July 17, 2012

    @Black-cat

    God has cancer?

    Maybe that is why we don’t see any evidence of him/her any more. However, according to Tom Waits, God’s Away on Business.

  641. #643 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To AdamG, who said,

    Mr. Luce, if you’re done being such a special little snowflake who just can’t stand being offended then maybe you’ll have a gander at the completely non-offensive questions in my comment at 3:51pm.

    Sorry, as a special little snowflake I’m so offended by your calling me that, that I have decided to ignore your “completely non-offensive questions.”

  642. #644 Redloh
    July 17, 2012

    You are ignoring them because you can’t answer them.

    What a waste of humanity. I’m out.

  643. #645 AdamG
    July 17, 2012

    Sorry, as a special little snowflake I’m so offended by your calling me that, that I have decided to ignore your “completely non-offensive questions.”

    Really? That’s your response?

    What do you hope to accomplish here, Mr. Luce? Because clearly you are not interested in rational discussion surrounding Protocel. From your earlier comments here:

    At higher concentrations it actually is LESS effective, so when it was killing 90 to 100% of the cancer cells it was at its second from lowest concentrations

    Are you open to actually discussing the evidence?
    Are we just supposed to believe what you say without any discussion?
    Why should we trust you any more than you trust the NCI?

  644. #646 John J. Luce
    July 17, 2012

    To Marc Stephens Is Insane, who said

    The late. great George Carlin on religion. I believe he coined the term “invisible sky fairy.”

    John J. Luce, don’t watch this comedy clip. It’ll offend you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

    Well, I endured the whole clip, and, yes, it offended me. But more than that, it made me feel real sorry for George. You see, he made one very real mistake— he died. On June 22, 2008, he died at the age of 71. If he could just have avoided dying, he might be okay right now. But he didn’t. He died. I don’t have to tell you where he is right now. He decided that for himself. Just like you and me and everyone else decides that. But poor George. He made his bed and he’s lying in it. His eternity began four years ago. Can you even imagine zillions and zillions of years? It is hard enough to fathom a thousand years, we who only make it 100 years at best. But a million years or a billion years or zillions of years is just too much to grasp. For someone to risk ending up in the wrong place for that long a time, is crazy.

  645. #647 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    @Militant Agnostic:

    Good news! Big Joe & Phantom 309 are headed over to God’s house with a truckload of chicken soup for the soul.

    Not a Wait’s original but he sings it best.

  646. #649 Lawrence
    July 17, 2012

    @john – only if you believe in the sky fairy….

    Your personal beliefs have no bearing on the rest of us.

  647. #650 jergen
    July 17, 2012

    pretend for a minute that AdamG didn’t write the post…pretend that I did. Now answers please!

    Also, didn’t God create doctors?

  648. #651 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 17, 2012

    I know exactly where he is–his body was burned and his ashes were scattered. End of story. No surprise there was no religious ceremony.

    I think we’re going in circles and we’re never going to agree on this, so I suggest we move the conversation back to Protocel. It’s not fair to other readers to spin off on a such a tangent.

    Maybe one day Orac will write an article dealing with medicine and religion and we can discuss it there.

  649. #652 Sauceress
    July 17, 2012

    @John J. Luce sermon @5:24 pm

    Is it time for scripture quoting? My favourites are Hosea & Numbers…oh and there’s so many more.

    John, how about you quit your preaching and address the questions directed to you regarding Protocel?

  650. #653 Thomas
    July 17, 2012

    “It is hard enough to fathom a thousand years, we who only make it 100 years at best. But a million years or a billion years or zillions of years is just too much to grasp. For someone to risk ending up in the wrong place for that long a time, is crazy.”

    Indeed. I suggest you repent, provide recompense to your victims, and live a better life hereafter.

  651. #654 Militant Agnostic
    July 17, 2012

    Sauceress

    John, how about you quit your preaching and address the questions directed to you regarding Protocel?

    Is there a difference? He’s either preaching his vile hateful version of Christianity or he’s preaching his vile cancer scam remedy. What kind of person worships a god who tortures people forever?

  652. #655 Sauceress
    July 17, 2012

    @Marc Stephens Is Insane (4:03 pm)

    All the Protocel websites I’ve seen look more like church websites than medical sites, and every second word is “praise god” or “praise Jesus.” The sites the MIA Leah cited all are full of those statements.

    It’s all gone now, but Burzynski’s Facebook page was the same back when Marc Stephens was all over the blogs. The first comment there was from Burzynski thanking God for choosing him and showing him “the cure”. The rest of the comments read like a typical over the top religious worship site.

    The religious angle comes across as being aimed at the gullible who might be more likely to believe that the devout wouldn’t deliberately decieve them.

    “No Siree…they be honest God-fearing folk…they wouldn’t scam us.”

  653. #656 Shay
    July 17, 2012

    “I don’t know all the answers, but lack of money is surely part of it. How much would YOU like to contribute toward the expense of doing that? It’s for a good cause, so don’t expect any return on your money, okay?

    You’re a little unclear on the concept of capitalism, aren’t you, John? If Protocel had any validity, large companies would be beating a path to the inventor’s door, to purchase, develop, test and market it. You cite unsupported data and then claim that it costs too much money to run clinical trials.

    Intelligent people want evidence. Facts. Corroboration. Not anecdotes. You want us to believe you, and then get your knickers in a twist because we’d like something more than your unsupported word.

    I wouldn’t buy a used car based solely on anecdotes from a seller, why would I buy something as important as a cancer cure? Why would anyone?

  654. #657 Militant Agnostic
    July 17, 2012

    Marc Stephens & Sauceress

    In America, Jesus sells almost as well as sex, so when you have a product where using sex to sell is inappropriate, Jesus is the obvious marketing strategy.

  655. #658 Shay
    July 17, 2012

    I just noticed this statement from John:

    ” Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat.”

    So after everyone is cured by Protocel there will never, ever again as long as the world lasts, be another person who gets lung cancer.

    Interesting concept, but how are you going to make it happen?

  656. #659 Sauceress
    July 17, 2012

    @Militant Agnostic
    Indeed, and now for some reason I’m reminded of this:
    Who Knew It Would Be So Easy To Impersonate A Priest?

  657. #660 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    @Shay

    Re: ” just noticed this statement from John”:

    ” Maybe your funding would be eliminated if a cure were announced. Maybe you’d be out of a job. Imagine—cancer researchers with no more researching needed or oncologists with no more cancer to treat.”

    Ever think that some so these researchers and oncologists have had familiy and friends that died of cancer and have no guaranttee that they won’t get struck by the cancer stick, themselves.

    I wonder if John has given some thought to this.

  658. #661 Sauceress
    July 17, 2012

    I think I’d have to agree that going the religious angle would be so much easier than impersonating someone with authentic knowledge regarding cancer, physiology, biochemistry and pharmacology.

  659. #662 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    @Sauceress

    Re: “I think I’d have to agree that going the religious angle would be so much easier than impersonating someone with authentic knowledge regarding cancer, physiology, biochemistry and pharmacology”

    I think it depends on the site. Here it certainly would. At BCO, you have a whole host of alties claiming to be experts in the cancer, physiology, biochem, and pharm fields, who not only get away with it but are hailed as guru’s that know so much more than those stupid oncologists.

    i.e. vivre or lucy88

  660. #663 Jergen
    July 17, 2012

    @black-cat

    I didn’t know about the history of BCO! I will need to google some info when I find some time.

  661. #664 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    Jergen, I tried to find that newscast on the two women that were threatened and bullied but can’t find it. Janelovesdogs originally posted it approximately 2 years ago. If you do a search on her you may find it. She was a hardcore bat shit crazy alite that used to go into the stage 4 forums and laugh at the women there, claiming that getting chemo when they were first diagnosed was the reason that their cancer spread. She just disappeared one day. I don’t know why.

    I would like to find that newscast again. Back then I did not know the full extent of how corrupt the altie forum is. I wonder if it was the alties that threatened those women.

    It was taken pretty seriously by the news station and it was a good report. Maybe thenewme remembers it and can find it.

  662. #665 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    Jergen,

    I found the newscast:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/special_reports&id=6783653

    One of the bullied women was a nurse who was told not to give nursing advce. Interesting. Not enough information to know if it was the alites that were bullying them. Honestly, the only bullying I see on that site is from the alties.

  663. #666 Shay
    July 17, 2012

    Shame on you, Black-cat. Don’t you know that researchers and oncologists are evil, evil scum and should be thrown in jail for murder?

    After they’ve been injected with a fatal dose of chemo-poison.

  664. #667 Black-cat
    July 17, 2012

    There was only a CAM forum back then. They don’t mention what forum it happened on but I have never seen that type of bullying on any of the other forums.

    At any rate, I think this event gave rise to “The Planet of the Alties” and they found that all they had to do was play the victim and this ensured that they would get their way. Using buzzwords like “bully” or “stalking” were always adventageous as the mods were especially sensitive to bullying and would be sure to have a knee jerk reaction to this. Think of Pavlov’s dogs. The games began and the forums became a free for all for any scamster with a political cause or looking to make an easy buck. Some of them, I wonder if they have ever had breast cancer. i.e. lucy88

  665. #668 Mrs Woo
    July 17, 2012

    @John – actually, I get offended at faith healing myself and I am, as I said, someone who is faithful. Which faith and how I practice it, however, is irrelevant to this.

    When someone begins mixing together treatment and faith a la “this treatment is of G-d” (like you saying Protocel is used to heal by G-d more than conventional therapy, for one), it allows people who are unscrupulous to manipulate true believers to spend money on dubious claims (if not outright lies). It seems like people who believe in a faith of some sort are also a lot more willing to trust people they don’t know (especially if they speak a similar “language”) than those who do not. That kind of overt willingness to exploit people using their faith really makes me angry.

    Reminds me of a televangelist who told all his followers he had to raise x amount of money or G-d was “callin’ him home.” ~shakes head~

    And then I wonder if they drink the Kool-Aid or just sell it.

    So I don’t mind that MSII happens to dislike religion mixed with psuedoscience. Granted, you’re right, he might have come on a little strong (he acknowledges that), but he doesn’t demean the belief as much as he demeans mixing that belief with the distribution or sale of an unproven, dubious cancer “cure.”

    I guess since I find it offensive for my own reasons I didn’t pay particular attention when it was written and hadn’t scrolled back far enough before leaving for my doctor appointment (I did assure you that I knew I hadn’t looked at everything yet – I had no intention of actually publishing untruth).

    I have been to faith healers. My disease has few good treatments and no cure. One of them, when I assured them I wasn’t cured, declared me possessed. Another one just said maybe we need more fasting and prayer (strangely, that was a remark made by a first century holy man when he answered his disciples regarding why they couldn’t drive out a demon that he had no trouble with – that it came out only with fasting and prayer – maybe both healers judged me the same way? Maybe you should pray for an obvious non-believer?).

    @Black-cat – so they’ve already gotten some bad press. Maybe they need more? Then again, with so much support for ‘alternative treatment’ in mainstream media, people who find it dangerous might not get as much sympathy as one might hope. Then again, to a good journalist, it might be a neat story to get both sides (and hopefully be neutral enough to realize that unproven cures can be more harmful than beneficial and that the motivation of those confronting alternative methods is one of attempting to supply people with what they need to survive rather than just a battle of ideas).

  666. #669 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    @Shay

    Silly me, that’s right, oncologists are the spawn of Satan.

    We can use the all natural ever curing protocel instead of that toxic poison chemo. Why go under the knife of a surgeon when we can just use black salve and burn our breasts off in the comfort of our own homes. Makes sense to me

    @Mrs. Woo: this little publicity that I generated seems to have caused some minor changes to BCO. Apparently, nobody can use multiple identities for one ISP anymore.. Must really chafe vivre’s hide.

  667. #670 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    Check out this religious healer – just heard about him from a friend in Australia – total whackjob just exposed as a charlatan on a TV show

    http://globalvn.com.au/sample23/

  668. #671 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    The price this guy quotes is not represented correctly on his web site but $2,500 for 1 treatment. He was setup by a current affairs program and they had a woman who had been treated successfully for stage 1 breast cancer many years before. He disgnosed that she had stage 1 bc and was now cured by his 1 treatment – total joke!!!

  669. #672 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    Will post the link to the television program when my friend sends it to me.

  670. #673 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/

    Click on the second picture – elderley gentleman

  671. #674 Cynical Pediatrician
    July 18, 2012

    JJLuce, yesterday @ 5:24p:
    “We are all free moral agents, not robots, and God has given us a great deal of freedom to act. Sometimes we are responsible and do the right things, health-wise, and sometimes we don’t. When we get sick, it might be a warning sign that gets us to take a second look at what we have been doing that was not good that made us sick. Or, who knows, maybe God let us get sick to draw us to Himself.”

    One of my patients–a beautiful, sweet, kind 6 year old girl–succumbed to Stage IV neuroblastoma last month.

    Please tell me how YOUR God–your all-powerful, kind, benevolent God–would cause this to happen, and why. Don’t give me the “it’s all part of HIS mysterious plan.” That’s poor consolation, which I though was one of the primary rationales for (and benefits of) religion.

    Please tell me why YOUR God–again, all-powerful–devastated New Orleans’ Lower Ninth Ward–with many good, god-fearing people–and destroyed many churches on the Mississippi Gulf Coast–while somehow leaving the French Quarter (that bastion of drunkeness, gluttony, and depravity)–virtually untouched. Either He is cruel, capricious, or not quite all-powerful. In which case, why should he be worshipped?

    The universe functions quite well by itself without having to drag God into it. But it takes courage to accept that, which most people cannot face.

  672. #675 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 18, 2012

    AFriend,

    According to that website you posted, this is what causes cancer This guy really is a lunatic and I’m basing my statement on this paragraph, not his religious beliefs:.

    Stages of diseases

    Stage 1 of Cancer occurs when you create 60 fractures in any one chakra or the Total Volume of your Anti-Clockwise Blood Cells reaches 25%. But because you have over 1570 chakras then it is impractical to measure each chakra so I have developed a more overall method by measuring the Anti-Clockwise Blood Cells (aka Cancer cells). To eliminate all the Anti-clockwise Blood Cells requires the repair of all of the fractures in every chakra in your body, otherwise metastasis will occur (Metastasis occurs when the Cancer cells move to the next lowest energy centre in your body – i.e., the chakra with the most number of fractures)

    I don’t care if this guy believes in god or Joe Pesci–his explanation for the cause of cancer is nutso-cuckoo.

  673. #676 Mrs Woo
    July 18, 2012

    What in the world are “Anti-Clockwise Blood Cells”??? Wow.

    How in the world do people even begin to believe this stuff?

  674. #677 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 18, 2012

    I just watched the video AFriend posted–what a total scumbag. I love the sting operation–at first I was afraid that poor woman was going to die of her breast cancer. Talk about a twist ending.

    Most conmen (and women) scumbags have far more personality and charisma than this “Rev.” Robinson–that’s usually an essential part of the con. Think of all the revival tent healers and the TV healers. They sell it with their personalities. This scumbag Robinson’s cheap wrinkled suit has more charisma than he does.

    Has any legal action been taken or is this still in progress?

    Does Australis have something similar to Britain’s Cancer Act?

  675. #678 Boudicca
    July 18, 2012

    Thank you Orac for putting the disrespectful blackcat/thenewme in its place. Now that BCO is cleaning up its server of abusers (not one minute too soon IMO), it looks like you have company Lol

    So we may continue to laugh at blackcat/thenewme at work doing its old dog old tricks: talking back and forth to him/herself with its personas posting within minutes of each other……a farce

    JJL & Leah: I’m afraid you are wasting your time on these ‘personas’ who claim to be researchers, physicians, etc. All the ones I know are wayyyyyy too busy to spend even one minute on the net, let alone on a site such as this one. Unless, of course, they’ve all been disbarred which would account for their hateful snarky remarks and all the idle moments reading and blabbermouthing here.

    But, even if that were the case, you would still be wasting your time on pseudo-skeptics – you see, they don’t even qualify as Skeptics. Here’s why:

    “The terms pseudo-skepticism and pathological skepticism are used to denote the phenomena when certain forms of skepticism deviate from objectivity. Other denominations are: “irrational rationalists” and “fundamentalist materialists”.

    They are professional atheists (who did start an atheist thread on BCO amongst many others in their recruitment efforts) suffering from pseudo superiority and appointed followers of their blessed father figure God of the Atheists, James Randi (that cranky pathological skeptibunkie Amazing Randi) and who are having a religious experience = Righteousness

    Defining characteristics of pseudo-skeptics:

    The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
    Double standards in the application of criticism
    The making of judgements without full inquiry
    Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
    Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks
    Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
    Pejorative labelling of proponents as ‘promoters’, ‘pseudoscientists’ or practitioners of ‘pathological science.’
    Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
    Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
    Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
    Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it
    Tendency to dismiss all evidence

  676. #679 Redloh
    July 18, 2012

    Dingo-Bat.

  677. #680 Redloh
    July 18, 2012

    “Defining characteristics of pseudo-skeptics:

    The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
    Double standards in the application of criticism
    The making of judgements without full inquiry
    Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate
    Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks
    Presenting insufficient evidence or proof
    Pejorative labelling of proponents as ‘promoters’, ‘pseudoscientists’ or practitioners of ‘pathological science.’
    Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof
    Making unsubstantiated counter-claims
    Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence
    Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it
    Tendency to dismiss all evidence”

    Wow, sounds just like the alti bullies on BCO. You just described yourself Boudi. Amazing.

  678. #681 Boudicca
    Pseudoskepticism 101
    July 18, 2012

    The thing that bothers me most though is that these BigPharma shills/personas who don’t suffer from cancer peddle their drugs on sites like BCO. That really rubs my a@@ the wrong way.

    Blackcat/TNM, Hahahahaha – you DO have a black sense of humor, shoulda sprinkled some of that on BCO before you were permanently banned.

    Nana now, gotta do something about the paranoia…….Maud ? Is she the one who recently said on BCO that you were having a serious episode of projectile vomiting on this site?

    Paranoia, what a curse hey blackcat/TNM, I can see you scratching your head staring at your Excel spreadsheet, hellbent on proving to the world that you’re detective material LOL

    Time now for your next pill, remember what the ‘doctor’ said, hein ?

    Now, more on the pseudo-skeptics. I was saying:

    It’s a waste of time because they already have their own opinion and their belief in that view is so weak they dare not step outside the boundaries given them by their ministers.

    “An authentic skeptic will look for a reason to believe; not a reason to disbelieve. They will read the original literature and let the authors try to convince them. It is really the only way that you can examine evidence objectively.

    Only after they have a sufficient grounding in the area of study do they go looking for the criticism. And a real skeptic favors the opinions of people who are actively working in that area of study. They get the benefit of the doubt. Always. They know more about their subject than anyone else. The game, so to speak, is theirs to lose.

    An expert is someone working in his field of study, not someone taking shots from the sidelines. Pseudo-skeptics ( “not a True Skeptic (TM)” ) arguments smack of desperation and an unreasonable demand for perfection. The complaints have a history of being trivial and of shifting to something else when they are addressed.

    Pseudo-skepticism is sloppy and almost always omits positive research or treats it as irrelevant. They don’t get respect for their side of the argument. The disdain for the overall quality of pseudo-skepticism is the result of reading skeptical literature and dealing with skeptics. Most are completely underwhelmed.

    Experts spent several years studying this stuff. Pseudo-skeptics not so much.

    There are patterns — constants — common to the pseudo-skeptic and their “arguments” when it comes to any number of topics. It does not matter who it is in the conversation, they always follow this map and use the same “script”. . . so much so that you could tape record it once and just let others share the original comment on play-back rather than stating it over and over again.

    Cynics simply do not want to believe in anything they can’t dissect and learn how to exploit for themselves. Please don’t come back with the “how it can help others” in that we all know how man is only interested in helping himself stand above others and that’s exactly how it would be used.

    You won’t change your opinion unless it is demanded of you and a skeptic who won’t change is a pseudo-skeptic.
    Way too much of today’s skepticism brings harm to way too many people and yet, those that perpetuate that harm refuse to accept responsibility for the conflict and anxiety they’ve created as the result of their own zeal and venom. How is this right?

    You are arrogant. You don’t deserve the respect that you think you do. Show some humility.

    You come off with a “high & mighty” position. It is a trait that is very common and pronounced even, in the majority of naysayers and one of those things that put “us’ on edge. Think of how fun it would be to have to defend your life and your personal “novelty” 24/7.

    Consider how much joy exists in a person’s life when they are being damned to hell by the holy rollers and promoted as con-artists and criminals by the so-called intellectuals of society.

    Einstein used to claim; in fact, most of the great physicist, mathematicians, etc. from the dark ages forward, were men (and a few women) of god — people with exceptionally strong faith, that sought to better define the Divine and it’s greatness by way of science”

  679. #682 Boudicca
    Pseudoskepticism 101
    July 18, 2012

    Careful REDBLOTCH/blackcat/TNM, you’re claws are showing, you’re becoming more and more transparent, Lol

    PseudoSkeptics vs. True Skeptics:
    Comparison Chart of Characteristics and Behaviors

    All pseudoskeptics will claim to be true skeptics. But regardless of how they define themselves, a pseudoskeptic is a pseudoskeptic if their characteristics and behaviors fit the traits of one. So it doesn’t matter what they call themselves, because actions speak louder than words.

    Here is a comparison chart of the differences between the traits of a true skeptic vs. a pseudoskeptic:

    True Skeptics / Open-Minded Skeptics

    • Questions everything and takes nothing on faith, even from cherished established institutions.
    • Asks questions to try to understand new things and are open to learning about them.
    • Applies critical examination and inquiry to all sides, including their own.
    • Withholds judgment and does not jump to rash conclusions.
    • Seeks the truth and considers it the highest aim.
    • Thinks in terms of possibilities rather than in preserving fixed views.
    • Fairly and objectively weighs evidence on all sides.
    • Acknowledges valid convincing evidence rather than ignoring or denying it.
    • Possess solid sharp common sense and reason.
    • Are able to adapt their paradigms to new evidence and update their hypothesis to fit the data.
    • When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones.
    • Accepts that there are mysteries and revels in trying to understand them.
    • Views science as a tool and methodology, not as a religion or authority to be obeyed. Understands the difference between the scientific process and the scientific establishment.
    • Acknowledges that the scientific establishment is subject to politics, corruption, control, censorship and suppression, as all human based institutions are – and therefore must be critically examined and scrutinized, rather than taken on faith, especially in the light of contrary evidence to their claims.
    • Will admit they are wrong when the evidence calls for it.

    PseudoSkeptics / Closed-Minded Skeptics

    • Does not question anything from established non-religious institutions, but takes whatever they say on faith and demands that others do the same.
    • Does not ask questions to try to understand new things, but judges them by whether they fit into orthodoxy.
    • Applies “critical thinking” only to that which opposes orthodoxy or materialism, but never to the status quo itself.
    • Immediately judges as false and debunks anything that contradicts their paradigm.
    • Are not interested in truth, evidence or facts, only in defending their views.
    • Cannot think in terms of possibilities, but sees their paradigms as fixed and constant.
    • Are willing to lie and deceive to discredit their opponents.
    • Automatically dismisses and denies all data that contradicts materialism and orthodoxy.
    • Are judgmental and quick to draw conclusions about things they know little or nothing about.
    • Scoffs and ridicules what they oppose instead of using objective analysis and examination.
    • When faced with evidence or facts they can’t refute, uses semantics, word games and denial to try to obfuscate the issue.
    • Unable to adapt their paradigms to new evidence, and denies data which doesn’t fit into them.
    • When all conventional explanations for an unexplainable phenomenon are ruled out, are still not able to accept paranormal ones.
    • Dislikes mystery and uncertainty, and insist that all unknown phenomena must have a mundane explanation.
    • Views the scientific establishment as a religion and authority to be taken on faith and never questioned or challenged. Does not understand the difference between the scientific process/methodology and the scientific establishment institution.
    • Assumes that the scientific establishment is objective and unbiased, and free of politics, corruption, control, censorship and suppression for no other reason than blind faith in authority.
    • Will never admit that they are wrong no matter what, regardless of evidence

  680. #683 D
    July 18, 2012

    Thank you Boudicca for that well thought out information. I always thought those calling themselves “skeptics” didn’t understand the term and they were really just generalized, bar room nay-sayers.

    But I haven’t examined or analyzed their behaviors as carefully as you have. Well done. I look forward to more of your analyses.

  681. #684 AdamG
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca, care to highlight any particular arguments on this blog that you find ‘pseudoskeptical’? I’d be happy to honestly debate any such claims with you.

  682. #685 Boudicca
    Pseudoskepticism 101
    July 18, 2012

    Pseudoskeptics New Anti Troll Laws Big Bucks Already in Arizona, Australia and Scotland

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7oeCTtBgvo

    Pseudo-skeptics are not just wrong and fallacious in their reasoning and approach with outright rejection of anything that doesn’t fit into a materialist orthodox paradigm. They’ve also, knowingly or unknowingly, engaged in deceptive mind control by hijacking critical terms to mean their OPPOSITE, including the very term “skeptic” itself. And they’ve hid what they truly are (suppressors of new ideas) by pretending to the opposite of what they are.

    As mentioned earlier, a skeptic doubts, inquires, questions, ponders, etc. But these pseudo-skeptics do anything but. They attack, ridicule, discredit and suppress anything and everything that challenges the materialist reductionist paradigm. But don’t take my word for it. Just look at any article by James Randi, Michael Shermer, or Skeptical Inquirer, for example, and you will see that there is no questioning of what they are told, doubt or pondering of possibilities at all.

    All they do is ridicule and attack anything related to paranormal and psychic phenomena, holistic medicine, and conspiracies. That’s not what skepticism is. The founder of the term itself meant this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptic

    • In classical philosophy, skepticism refers to the teachings and the traits of the ‘Skeptikoi’, a school of philosophers of whom it was said that they ‘asserted nothing but only opined.’ (Liddell and Scott) In this sense, philosophical skepticism, or Pyrrhonism, is the philosophical position that one should suspend judgment in investigations.

    And according to Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, a skeptic is:

    “One who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons.”

    Now, take Michael Shermer for example. He is a professional skeptic who runs a Skeptic magazine, which makes him a prominent skeptic in the movement. But does he do any of the above? Does he doubt or question authority or orthodoxy? Does he ponder possibilities and the mysteries and wonders of life? Does he engage in a nonjudgmental open search for truth? No.

    All he does is try to debunk and discredit. Just look at every article he writes and you will see that. Yet he is one of the “big name skeptics!” What does that tell you?!

    So you see, these pseudoskeptics hijack the term “skeptic” so that it can’t be used against them. By calling themselves “skeptics”, they cast themselves as THE “skeptics” who question everything with critical thinking and doubt. And if you are a skeptic or critical thinker, then you will agree with them, so they hope.

    Similarly, they’ve done the same with the terms “reason, rationality, logic, critical thinking, scientific” as well by hijacking them to fit their agenda, so that they support their agenda of discrediting anything related to paranormal, holistic or conspiratorial evidence.

    In essence, what they’ve done is put themselves in a position of “ultimate authority” on reason, rationality, logic, critical thinking, etc. so that if you call yourself those things, then you must agree with them and their position. As such, being “reasonable and rational” means to AGREE with them. And “critical thinking” can only be used to reject what they reject, never to critique the pseudo-skeptics themselves, according to their paradigm, for they are “the critiquers”.

    Thus, they’ve made it so that “critical thinking” and “skepticism” can’t be used against them, because they are THE “critical thinkers and skeptics”. It’s a very sly form of mind control that obfuscates the terms and attempts to shield them from “criticism” by putting them in the highest position of criticism.

    As such, the term “skeptic” now refers to the one who suppresses and attacks the questioner, rather than the questioner himself. In other words, the new “skeptic” is someone who debunks a “skeptic” by wearing the hat of the person they are out to debunk, in effect impersonating them! It’s a highly deceptive form of role reversal that is sneaky and deceptive.

    Fortunately though, the true skeptics, critical thinkers and freethinkers see through this BS and call them on it, expose this mind control and hijacking of terms to mean their opposite.

    This whole movement of hijacking important words to mean their opposite, and militant suppression of new ideas, seems way too calculated and organized to be due to simple sheer human ignorance and narrow mindedness alone. Instead, it’s more indicative of an agenda, such as a disinformation or mind control campaign. This isn’t to say that all pseudo-skeptics are disinfo agents. But some might be, either knowingly or unknowingly. You have to remember that we are all mind controlled to some degree, one way or another. Even if these pseudo-skeptics are not knowingly involved in a disinfo campaign, they are likely to be mind controlled themselves by a disinfo/thought suppression campaign.

    It’s a definite possibility, since after all, this world has more dark secrets than one can imagine, and most things are not what they appear to be. There is no question that they have hijacked terms and pretended to be the opposite of what they are.

    By hiding behind the mask of critical rational thinkers and skeptics, they’ve hidden the fact that they are suppressors of new ideas that challenge old paradigms, thus making themselves look forward and progressive, rather than backwards and suppressive.

    Now, this form of hiding what you are by pretending to be the opposite of what you are is nothing new. It’s a classic form of mind control.

  683. #686 AdamG
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca, unless you have a specific argument to make against any of the claims raised on this thread, I suggest you take your copypasta somewhere else.

  684. #687 Narad
    July 18, 2012

    They are professional atheists

    Apparently, you haven’t bothered to look around here much.

  685. #688 Boudicca
    July 18, 2012

    Adam, no I don’t care to

    This whole thread – have not read any other here and I don’t care to – reeks of gym room BO & sweat.

    If only blackcat/TNM and a few ‘others’ would put away their smelly sneakers, pouach !

  686. #689 Mu
    July 18, 2012

    I think you should have credited these guys with majorly contributing to your post; http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/hijackingterms.php

  687. #690 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca = altie bully on some sort of hallucinatory drug

  688. #691 AdamG
    July 18, 2012

    That’s fine. You clearly have nothing to contribute as all of your posts are copied from other writers.

  689. #692 AdamG
    July 18, 2012

    no I don’t care to

    That’s fine. You clearly have nothing to contribute as all of your posts are copied from other writers.

  690. #693 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Hello Maud. Boudicca is bat shit crazy maud on BCO. I think her other personas were patsy and rainbowpony.

    It looks like you have been copying & pasting rants from Timmy Bolen. Unlike BCO, over here at RI, it’s customary to give credit where credit is due. Poaching other people’s words is frowned upon.

    I have some advice for you, Maud. Take the Arimidex that your oncologist prescribed for you. Just becasuse Vivre told you that you should listen to your “woman’s intuition” on your deciscion is not a good reason not to take it. She was really advertising Christine Northrup’s book to you. Did you go to vivre’s amazon bookstore and purchase the book from her? You call others stupid and crazy and you make a possible life threatening decision on your gut feeling. What’s wrong with this picture?

  691. #694 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    July 18, 2012

    Hey, I just heard on BCO that battery acid can cure cancer! Orally, rectally or IV.

  692. #695 Boudicca
    Pseudoskepticism 101
    July 18, 2012

    You’re welcome D ;)

    The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:

    Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment.
    Equipment needed: one armchair.

    PUT on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
    suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God.
    EMPLOY vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as
    “ridiculous” or “trivial” in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.
    PORTRAY science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery-worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending scientific method.
    KEEP your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will “send the message” that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it–and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
    REINFORCE the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that science must be neutral to subject matter and that only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that “there is no contradiction here.”)
    ARRANGE to have your message echoed by persons of
    authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.
    ALWAYS refer to unorthodox statements as “claims,” which
    are “touted,” and to your own assertions as “facts,” which are “stated.”
    AVOID examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, “I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!” (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries’ worth of denial free and clear!)
    IF examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that “there is nothing new here!” If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being “too pat.”
    EQUATE the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.
    INSIST that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.
    DOWNPLAY the fact that free inquiry, legitimate
    disagreement and respectful debate are a normal part of science.
    AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY reinforce the notion that what is
    familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore
    irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.
    STATE CATEGORICALLY that the unconventional arises
    exclusively from the “will to believe” and may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.
    MAINTAIN that in investigations of unconventional
    phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, “after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect.”
    “Occam’s Razor,” or the “principle of parsimony,” says the
    correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam’s Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.
    DISCOURAGE any study of history that may reveal today’s
    dogma as yesterday’s heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.
    SINCE the public tends to be unclear about the distinction
    between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that there is no evidence.
    IF sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant
    further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that
    “evidence alone proves nothing!” Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *anything*.
    In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will
    eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation–particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.
    INSIST that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established
    for phenomena that do not exist!
    ALTHOUGH science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”–but take care never to define where the “ordinary” ends and the “extraordinary” begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon, i.e., to define “extraordinary” evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any
    point in time.
    PRACTICE debunkery-by-association. Lump together all
    phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at
    hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say “I rest my case.”
    USE the word “imagination” as an epithet that applies only
    to seeing what’s *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.
    IF a significant number of people agree that they have
    observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to “mass hallucination.” Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality, which is routinely observed by millions, might itself constitute a mass hallucination.
    RIDICULE, RIDICULE, RIDICULE. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.
    By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule
    constitutes an essential feature of scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity, integrity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.
    IMPLY investigators of the unorthodox are zealots.
    Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such “true believers” know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would “love to believe in these
    fantastic phenomena.” Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.
    USE smoke and mirrors,” i.e., obfuscation and illusion.
    Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of
    slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.
    EMPLOY ‘TCP’: Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation.
    Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as
    blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.
    TRIVILIAZE the case by trivializing the entire field in
    question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on this, simply say “but there’s nothing there to study!” Characterize any serious investigator of the unorthodox as a “buff”
    or “freak,” or as “self-styled”-the media’s favorite code-word for “bogus.”
    REMEMBER that most people do not have sufficient time or
    expertise for careful discrimination, and tend to accept or reject the whole of an unfamiliar situation. So discredit the whole story by attempting to discredit *part* of the story. Here’s how: a) take one element of a case completely out of context; b) find something prosaic that hypothetically could explain it; c) declare that therefore that one element has been explained; d) call a press conference and announce to the world that the entire case has been explained!
    ENGAGE the services of a professional stage magician who can mimic the phenomenon in question; for example, ESP, psychokinesis or levitation. This will convince the public that the original claimants or witnesses to such phenomena must themselves have been (or been fooled by) talented stage magicians who hoaxed the original phenomenon in precisely the same way.
    FIND a prosaic phenomenon that resembles, no matter how superficially, the claimed phenomenon. Then suggest that the existence of the commonplace look-alike somehow forbids the existence of the genuine article. For example, imply that since people often see “faces” in rocks and clouds, the enigmatic Face on Mars must be a similar illusion and therefore cannot possibly be artificial.
    WHEN an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of nonphysical or nonterrestrial intelligence.
    ACCUSE investigators of unusual phenomena of believing in “invisible forces and extrasensory realities.” If they should point out that the physical sciences have *always* dealt with invisible forces and extrasensory realities (gravity? electromagnetism? . . . ) respond with a condescending chuckle that this is “a naive interpretation of the facts.”
    INSIST that western science is completely objective, and is
    based on no untestable assumptions, covert beliefs or ideological interests. If an unfamiliar or inexplicable phenomenon happens to be considred true and/or useful by a nonwestern or other traditional society, you may therefore dismiss it out of hand as “ignorant
    misconception,” “medieval superstition” or “fairy lore.”
    LABEL any poorly-understood phenomenon “occult,”
    “paranormal,” “metaphysical,” “mystical” or “supernatural.” This will get most mainstream scientists off the case immediately on purely emotional grounds. If you’re lucky, this may delay any responsible investigation of such phenomena by decades or even centuries!
    ASK questions that appear to contain generally-assumed
    knowledge that supports your views; for example, “why do no police officers, military pilots, air traffic controllers or psychiatrists report UFOs?” (If someone points out that they do, insist that those who do must be mentally unstable.)
    ASK unanswerable questions based on arbitrary criteria of
    proof. For example, “if this claim were true, why haven’t we seen it on TV?” or “in this or that scientific journal?” Never forget the mother of all such questions: “If UFOs are extraterrestrial, why haven’t they landed on the White House lawn?”
    REMEMBER that you can easily appear to refute anyone’s
    claims by building “straw men” to demolish. One way to do this is to misquote them while preserving that convincing grain of truth; for example, by acting as if they have intended the extreme of any position they’ve taken. Another effective strategy with a long history of success is simply to misreplicate their experiments–or to avoid replicating them at all on grounds that to do so would be ridiculous or fruitless. To make the whole process even easier,
    respond not to their actual claims but to their claims as reported by the media, or as propagated in popular myth.
    INSIST that such-and-such unorthodox claim is not
    scientifically testable because no self-respecting grantmaking organization would fund such ridiculous tests.
    BE SELECTIVE. For example, if an unorthodox healing method has failed to reverse a case of terminal illness you may deem it worthlesswhile taking care to avoid mentioning any of the shortcomings of conventional medicine.
    HOLD claimants responsible for the production values and
    editorial policies of any media or press that reports their claim. If an unusual or inexplicable event is reported in a sensationalized manner, hold this as proof that the event itself must have been without substance or worth.
    WHEN a witness or claimant states something in a manner
    that is scientifically imperfect, treat this as if it were not
    scientific at all. If the claimant is not a credentialed scientist,
    argue that his or her perceptions cannot possibly be objective.
    IF you’re unable to attack the facts of the case, attack the
    participants–or the journalists who reported the case. Ad-hominem arguments, or personality attacks, are among the most powerful ways of swaying the public and avoiding the issue. For example, if investigators of the unorthodox have profited financially from activities connected with their research, accuse them of “profiting financially from activities connected with their research!” If their research, publishing, speaking tours and so forth, constitute their normal line of work or sole means of support, hold that fact as
    “conclusive proof that income is being realized from such
    activities!” If they have labored to achieve public recognition for their work, you may safely characterize them as “publicity seekers.”
    FABRICATE supportive expertise as needed by quoting the
    opinions of those in fields popularly assumed to include the
    necessary knowledge. Astronomers, for example, may be trotted out as experts on the UFO question, although course credits in ufology have never been a prerequisite for a degree in astronomy.
    FABRICATE confessions. If a phenomenon stubbornly refuses to go away, set up a couple of colorful old geezers to claim they hoaxed it. The press and the public will always tend to view confessions as sincerely motivated, and will promptly abandon their critical faculties. After all, nobody wants to appear to lack compassion for self-confessed sinners.
    FABRICATE sources of disinformation. Claim that you’ve
    “found the person who started the rumor that such a phenomenon exists!”
    FABRICATE entire research projects. Declare that “these
    claims have been thoroughly discredited by the top experts in the field!” Do this whether or not such experts have ever actually studied the claims, or, for that matter, even exist.

    IF NOTHING WORKS AND ALL ELSE FAILS, USE BATTERY ACID, BUT MAKE SURE IT IS STILL CORROSIVE

  693. #696 Shay
    July 18, 2012

    And Boudie, like the other alties, refuses resolutely to answer any questions addressed to her and admit she has not read the thread.

    But feels qualified to comment on it anyway. Amazing.

  694. #697 Thomas
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca

    Why do you think that Orac let you post page after page of nonsense? Is it

    a) You think that he is too openminded to delete your material
    b) You think that he hasn’t figured out how to delete your lies
    c) You think that he doesn’t realize that you have completely exposed him
    d) You think that he’ll send you a check if you make alties look stupid enough

  695. #698 Narad
    July 18, 2012

    The pseudo-skeptic User Manual

    You left off “© 1997 by Daniel Drasin.”

  696. #699 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    @Narad:

    Maud (boudicca) is infamous at BCO for pouching whatever she likes off the internet and claiming it as her own work.

  697. #700 AdamG
    Osteria della Boudicca
    July 18, 2012

    I’ve never really understood what the goal of copypasta is, as a tactic. Why bother? What’s the point?

  698. #701 Black-cat
    need print preview
    July 18, 2012

    make that poaching

  699. #702 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    She will also interlace the piece that she stole off the internet with a few idiotic sentences or her own. It’s easy to tell where.

  700. #703 Redloh
    July 18, 2012

    Apparently we struck a nerve and Boudi went into nonsense overdrive.

  701. #704 D
    July 18, 2012

    Thank you Boudicca.

    This manual could have been used by The Flat Earth Society :)

    After the predictable pseudoskeptical responses you got, you are entitled to say, “I rest my case!”

    Pseudoskeps don’t realize when they walk into a trap of their own devising.

  702. #705 Rose
    July 18, 2012

    Still describing yourself. Bodie

  703. #706 Thomas
    July 18, 2012

    D – weren’t you the guy who claimed that he had never heard of Protocel until a few days ago? I guess you were lying.

  704. #707 JK
    July 18, 2012

    Yep, Boudicca is Maud.

    I have great sympathy for the REAL physicians who treat these people.

  705. #708 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Who is D? Possibly vivre?

  706. #709 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    Yawn…Skepgoating

  707. #710 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca

    The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:
    Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment.
    Equipment needed: one armchair.
    PUT on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
    suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God.

    Thanks for that Boudicca (btw you do understand about citing other’s work ?) it describes the peddlers of pseudoscience & scam miracle cures to a T.

  708. #711 AFriend
    July 18, 2012

    Excellent article Sauceress!!

  709. #712 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2012

    I don’t think I’ve never seen any pseudoskepticism here, just reasonable requests for some reliable evidence to support people’s claims. Refusing to accept anecdotal evidence and unsupported assertions doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. Perhaps that’s because I’m not an idiot.

  710. #713 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2012

    Or even “I’ve ever seen”.

  711. #714 Denice Walter
    July 18, 2012

    Let me see-
    Well, I’m still trying to figure out the ‘nym and analogy:
    brave rebel queen defends her homeland from foreign hostile occupiers and then dies. She loses.
    Which makes us Roman legions, SBM the empire, Orac a general, the internet E. Anglia, comments projectiles…. and eventually the more technologically advanced culture prevails overtaking the more primitive tribal one. That’s not so bad.

  712. #715 JK
    July 18, 2012

    @ black-cat –
    Perhaps D is Kaara?
    It isn’t abigail, that’s for sure. :-)
    And JLW is now posting as “Joy.”

  713. #716 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    I also thought it an excellent article from a great site that I just bookmarked. Thanks for posting it, Sauceress!

  714. #717 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    @AFriend

    Actually I was sent a link to that article along with a link to the Robinson cancer scam on ACA. Not by a mutual friend…I checked :)

  715. #718 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    @JK

    Yes, I can see D as Kaara. Good call. JoyLiesWIthin now becomes just Joy. She changes her identity more than Prince formally known as ….?

  716. #719 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Speaking of Joy, where’s Leah?

  717. #720 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    The above article also reinforces the fact that the same avenues of cognitive dissonance are cultured by pseudoscience junkies of all flavours.

    …and seeing as she/he/it likes that kind of thing so much, here’s some copypasta for Boudicca.

    “Skepgoating: why antivaxxers need to devalue skepticism”

    Skepgoating: Skepgoating (adj) is derived from the notion of scapegoating. It refers to the practice of falsely accusing (scientific) skepticism, skeptics or other individuals of pursuing predetermined agendas derived from distortions of (scientific) skepticism. Used as both defence and attack it aims to cast the other party as inferior, negative and wrong. Particularly found within or in relation to discourse in which truth can demonstrably be derived from evidence. In this way the accuser seeks to drive onlooker or reader attention away from the lack (or presence) of evidence and evoke an irrational and emotional response toward the individual or organisation being skepgoated.

    Claims made in skepgoating are false. Rather than address evidence, attempts are made to malign the other party to such an extent that a Faux Victory is claimed. Eg: “Skeptics worship science and are too close minded to understand”. Or, “Skeptics want to suppress your freedom of speech and your right to choose”. Or, “Skeptics want to do bad things to me, that is why they say words that make me appear stupid”.
    Skepgoating is also used by certain cult-like groups to imply skepticism by association, by group members who exhibit independent thinking. In such cases skepgoating may have similar power to the belief in witchcraft leading to swift and disproportionate retribution directed at the skepgoat (n). Banishment of the skepgoat and expunging of their visible history follows in an attempt to convey unity to remaining cult members. Dominant or Alpha skepgoaters decide who will be deemed a skepgoat.

  718. #721 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Now where have I seen that before? Sounds so familiar. I just can’t place the website that I experienced this on.

  719. #722 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    I seem to remember it as being a non profit website and the first letter began with a B.

  720. #723 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    @D (4:30 pm)

    After the predictable pseudoskeptical responses you got, you are entitled to say, “I rest my case!”

    Predictable.

    Claims made in skepgoating are false. Rather than address evidence, attempts are made to malign the other party to such an extent that a Faux Victory is claimed.

    Oh what fun…yawn..

  721. #724 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 18, 2012

    So, Boudicca.

    Let me see if I’m following you.

    If a believer tells a skeptic “look at the evidence for this holistic paranormal thing I want you to believe in!!” it seems like the skeptic has only two options in your paradigm: either the skeptic says “Oh yes! So completely correct; clearly the lint in your bellybutton is proof of Morgellons chemtrails HAARP GMOs!” or they say “Sorry, I don’t find the evidence provided to be of the extraordinary quality that would be needed to support the extraordinary thesis you’ve presented.” And in the latter case, you declare them a pseudoskeptic instead of a skeptic, and declare that they only found the evidence unconvincing because they didn’t look at all the evidence.

    Right so far?

    And yet when it’s suggested that you check the accuracy of the insults you have hurled at us by looking at other threads on this site, you answer that you don’t care to.

    Can you answer the one question: under what single standard do you believe that skeptics are obligated to do more than you yourself are willing to do to try and support your beliefs?

    Now unfortunately since you’ve shown a propensity to change the subject instead of answering questions respectfully directed to you, we need to set up something in the nature of an ultimatum. If you make three comments, on this thread or any other, without giving an answer to the question, the third such comment will be taken as your admission that you have no answer. It’s one of the only ways to deal with people who constantly change the subject in order to try and gain an advantage.

  722. #725 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca is obviously a one-trick “copypasta and run” troll.

    Ever-dense as a substitute for evidence.

  723. #726 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Sauceress,

    I have learned not to be drinking or eating anything when I read your posts. I spit milk all over my computer screen when I read your troll comment. Had quite the clean up to do. Ever think of doing stand up comedy? You would be good at it.

  724. #727 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    That was the first troll comment to Leah that I was referring to. Too funny.

  725. #728 Infuriatingly Moderate
    July 18, 2012

    Since it’s apparently impossible to be skeptical of both “the man” and my own subjective experience at the same time, my brain most certainly will explode now.

    5-4-3-2-1…………

    Dang. Still here. Guess my brain has a mind of its own. (insert rimshot).

  726. #729 Mrs Woo
    July 18, 2012

    @Spam master Boudicca – I’m trying to find your Einstein quote exactly as stated and can’t, though I find it on a lot of stuff just like you pasted in here it is never a real quote. Could you please help me and send me a reference that says where it comes from? Thank you.

    I’m trying to figure this out – it sounds like you’ve pulled up your armchair and put the appropriate attitude on already for sure.

    See, when someone insists that they want to see proof of concept, they have studies that show the limits and how much better the recommended treatment is than placebo (which is pretty much water/sugar, etc.). I have never heard an honest doctor, etc., claim that they could guarantee a cure. They will give you honest percentages and tell you why (and what studies brought them to that conclusion, if you ask) they are recommending a certain treatment.

    Since you’re suggesting that we’re dismissing evidence out of hand, what evidence do you have that I can look at? I’m willing to examine anything. I bet that most cancer researchers are, too, if the treatment makes sense (i.e., saying that if you stood on your head fifteen minutes of every hour for at least six hours in a row every day would cure cancer would probably be considered an unlikely claim).

    What frustrates people like me (I can only speak for me and from personal experience) is people who make outrageous claims with no real evidence (stories over the internet don’t count if I can’t verify them, etc.) and try to sell people on things that won’t work and may very well be harmful for them (i.e. cesium chloride, laetrile). Also don’t like it when people frighten rather than encourage patients who are already pretty doggone scared in an attempt to get them to avoid treatment with real studies for an unproven and often ineffective “cure.”

    Why does that make me a bad person? I’ve been subjected to a ton of useless alternative treatments that have done nothing but wasted money and made me sick just because Mr Woo would rather buy hope than deal with reality and patience and keep watching/reading real research to see what is “coming down the pike,” so to speak.

  727. #730 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    @Boudicca

    Read my comment at 3:36pm. It was held in moderation so you may not have seen it. Oddly enough, I see you more as one of BCO’s victims as opposed to one of the predators. Sometimes the lines are blurred. You are just too ignorant to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

  728. #731 Narad
    July 18, 2012

    I’m trying to find your Einstein quote exactly as stated and can’t

    This?

    “Einstein used to claim; in fact, most of the great physicist, mathematicians, etc. from the dark ages forward, were men (and a few women) of god — people with exceptionally strong faith, that sought to better define the Divine and it’s greatness by way of science”

    It’s a broken cut-and-paste from here.

  729. #732 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca,

    Orac covered the stupidity of Christine Northrup’s stupid idea of “using your inner wisdom to make your health choices”

    “If you want evidence that Dr. Northrup has truly gone completely woo, look no further than this next passage:

    As with anything, I suggest you let your inner guidance help you in all decisions about your health. If you feel it’s best to get an annual mammogram, then by all means continue with them. Just be aware of the drawbacks and risks associated with the test

    “. Her statements are scientifically unjustified, profoundly unethical, and potentially dangerous to patients. Pure ridiculousness doesn’t even come close to describing them. Many are the women whom I’ve met who “just knew” they were fine until their family persuaded them to undergo mammography, which then found real, invasive cancers. I don’t have much faith in anyone’s “inner guidance” with regard to asymptomatic disease. In essence, Northrup is urging women to base their health care decisions on intuition rather than science”

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/10/13/the-huffington-post-promotes-breast-canc/

  730. #733 Black-cat
    July 18, 2012

    vivre used you for her own sick and selfish agenda. If you don’t want to take the arimidex, base it on a sound scientific decision rather than your woman’s intuition or gut feeling that you should not be taking it.

  731. #734 Sauceress
    July 18, 2012

    Black-cat
    Thank the sycophants of the pseudoscience “miracle cure” cults.
    Just so much material to work with. I occasionally have cause to briefly wonder if the trolls are in fact Poes out to ridicule all these miracle cancer cure scam alties. Alas I know that’s not the case.
    ~~~

    @Thomas (July 18, 4:00 pm)

    Boudicca
    Why do you think that Orac let you post page after page of nonsense? Is it

    I’m going for answer d)

    d) You think that he’ll send you a check if you make alties look stupid enough

  732. #735 Mrs Woo
    July 18, 2012

    Thank you Narad!

    Craig is correct in his comment about looking for a reason to believe, this is how the skeptics of the 19th and early 20th century (at least in the magic world) approached things even before Houdini’s famed campaigns. The goal was to “find god” so to speak, which was also one of the things Einstein used to claim; in fact, most of the great physicist, mathematicians, etc. from the dark ages forward, were men (and a few women) of god — people with exceptionally strong faith, that sought to better define the Divine and it’s greatness by way of science.

    So it was only insinuating that Einstein said it. How wonderfully disingenuous. It didn’t sound like anything I’ve ever read quoting Einstein before. He was, in some ways, a pantheist, but didn’t believe in the typical dogmatic type of faith with a personified divinity. Sometimes I wonder if that is where my own faith journey will ultimately take me.

  733. #736 thenewme
    July 18, 2012

    Boudicca,
    You really don’t get it, do you?

    This blog post is about Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron (and Protocel) and quacks who sell it to cancer patients.

    It’s a very important and relevant post to me as a cancer patient myself, who is frustrated by these lowlife quacks promoting it in lieu of *real* treatment for cancer. It’s disgusting and despicable to me that anyone could stoop so low as to prey on cancer patients. Believe me, if Protocol had ANY legitimate evidence of working, I’d be all over it. I’d love nothing more than to find that simply drinking a quarter-teaspoon of the stuff 12 times a day or whatever, was the cure. So would every other cancer patient and friend/family member I know! All we are asking for is evidence.

    What do you have to hide? Why do you and the other Protocel promoters become so defensive and unhinged when we ask for real information? Where is the data to support its efficacy and safety? Really, I just don’t get what’s so hard about it.

    The way I see it, either you (not necessarily you in particular, but anyone who promotes or sells it) offer up some legitimate information or you’re simply making shit up.

    Antaeus Feldspar has put forth a reasonable challenge to you several times here, so what’s it gonna be?

    By the way, I’m not Black-Cat or Redblotch (???) or anyone else. You have so many facts so very, very mixed up, but my identity aside, what about the topic of discussion here?

  734. #737 Black-cat
    July 19, 2012

    @thenewme:

    In this case I would not be opposed to the topic changed to “listening to your woman’s intuition”according to vivre’s mentor, Christine Norhrup.

    Budicca is obviously maud on bco. If you do a search, you will see that vivre has talked maud out of taking Arimidex as prescribed by her MO. The premise was “your intuition knows so much more than doctors”

    Vivre has been vomiting out the same story over and over for the past two years of how she put her newly prescribed Arimidex in her mouth, got hit by women’s intuitiion, and not only spit the pills out but hurled her toxic pill bottle across the room and was cleansed of the devil. Amen. Christine Norhrup and vivres website are than promoted.

    Maud is her most recent victim.

  735. #738 Black-cat
    July 19, 2012

    thenewme,

    Has it really been two years that we have been fighting cancer quackery with the alties on BCO? You have been at it much longer than me. How time flies.

  736. #739 AFriend
    July 19, 2012

    Seems longer than that :)

  737. #740 Black-cat
    July 19, 2012

    Yes, you two my friend. Thanks for the email! I did not want to lose touch with you. We should give ourselves a name. The BCO altie battle was bravely carried out.

  738. #741 Black-cat
    July 19, 2012

    I can’t seem to spell on this site to save my life

  739. #742 Black-cat
    July 19, 2012

    I was always better at science than english

  740. #743 D
    July 19, 2012

    Welcome to the pseudoskeps’ Psychic Friends Network.

  741. #744 Leah
    July 19, 2012

    @blackcat, do you know who wrote this manual? Also I’m curious to know is it a required reading in Chemical School?

    [The pseudo-skeptic User Manual:

    Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment.
    Equipment needed: one armchair.

    PUT on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that
    suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God.
    EMPLOY vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as
    “ridiculous” or “trivial” in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.
    PORTRAY science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery-worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending scientific method.
    KEEP your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will “send the message” that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it–and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
    REINFORCE the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that science must be neutral to subject matter and that only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that “there is no contradiction here.”)
    ARRANGE to have your message echoed by persons of
    authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.
    ALWAYS refer to unorthodox statements as “claims,” which
    are “touted,” and to your own assertions as “facts,” which are “stated.”
    AVOID examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, “I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!” (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries’ worth of denial free and clear!)
    IF examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that “there is nothing new here!” If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being “too pat.”
    EQUATE the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.
    INSIST that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.
    DOWNPLAY the fact that free inquiry, legitimate
    disagreement and respectful debate are a normal part of science.
    AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY reinforce the notion that what is
    familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore
    irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.
    STATE CATEGORICALLY that the unconventional arises
    exclusively from the “will to believe” and may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.
    MAINTAIN that in investigations of unconventional
    phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, “after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect.”
    “Occam’s Razor,” or the “principle of parsimony,” says the
    correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam’s Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.
    DISCOURAGE any study of history that may reveal today’s
    dogma as yesterday’s heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.
    SINCE the public tends to be unclear about the distinction
    between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that there is no evidence.
    IF sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant
    further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that
    “evidence alone proves nothing!” Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *anything*.
    In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will
    eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation–particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.
    INSIST that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established
    for phenomena that do not exist!
    ALTHOUGH science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”–but take care never to define where the “ordinary” ends and the “extraordinary” begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon, i.e., to define “extraordinary” evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any
    point in time.
    PRACTICE debunkery-by-association. Lump together all
    phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at
    hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say “I rest my case.”
    USE the word “imagination” as an epithet that applies only
    to seeing what’s *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.
    IF a significant number of people agree that they have
    observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to “mass hallucination.” Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality, which is routinely observed by millions, might itself constitute a mass hallucination.
    RIDICULE, RIDICULE, RIDICULE. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.
    By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule
    constitutes an essential feature of scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity, integrity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.
    IMPLY investigators of the unorthodox are zealots.
    Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such “true believers” know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would “love to believe in these
    fantastic phenomena.” Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.
    USE smoke and mirrors,” i.e., obfuscation and illusion.
    Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of
    slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.
    EMPLOY ‘TCP’: Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation.
    Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as
    blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.
    TRIVILIAZE the case by trivializing the entire field in
    question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on t