Quacks despise science-based medicine in general, but there are certain specialties that they detest more than others. Arguably, the specialty most attacked by quacks is psychiatry. Many are the reasons, some legitimate, many not. In particular, Scientologists despise psychiatry, even going so far as to maintain a “museum” dedicated to psychiatry that they charmingly call Psychiatry: Industry of Death. It’s so ridiculously over-the-top, a virtual self-parody, that it almost inadvertently undermines attacks on psychiatry frequently leveled by Scientologists and quacks.

Let’s face it, psychiatry hasn’t always had the best history. It’s a very hard to study human behavior and disorders of human behavior in a rigorous fashion, but to my mind that didn’t excuse the the widespread acceptance of the ideas of Sigmund Freud, which were little removed from pseudoscience in many respects. Also, psychiatry has not always had the best history, particularly in the early part of this century. Too often, psychiatry has been used as a tool of control rather than a means of helping people who are suffering. Although there is a ways to go, however, psychiatry in 2012 is much better than psychiatry, say, 50 or 75 years ago. It wasn’t so long ago that I wrote about an old time radio show that gave an idea of how fast psychiatrists at a certain point in the last century were to perform lobotomies, despite the extreme lack of evidence for their safety and efficacy. Over the last half-century, better psychiatric drugs to treat different conditions have been developed, leading to their widespread use for a number of indications.

There are, of course, legitimate criticisms of psychiatry to be made, but that’s not what quacks are interested in. Their hatred of psychiatry is particularly pure, to the point where they look for any excuse to attack psychiatric medications. One of the more odious byproducts of this is a depressing eagerness among the anti-psychiatry quack crowd to leap on any mass murder that occurs as an excuse to blame the crime on psychiatric medications. I first noticed this particularly disgusting phenomenon in the wake of the Virginia Tech shooting five years ago, and, unfortunately, I’m noticing it again now, in the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting, in which a mass murderer, Adam Lanza, gunned down 26 people, including 20 children between the ages of 6 and 7, before shooting himself. A mere two days after the shooting, for instance, Mike Adams, the proprietor of one of the most wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet, NaturalNews.com, wrote a post he entitled, Gun control? We need medication control! Newtown elementary school shooter Adam Lanza likely on meds; labeled as having ‘personality disorder’, in which he ranted:

According to ABC News, Adam Lanza, the alleged shooter, has been labeled as having “mental illness” and a “personality disorder.” These are precisely the words typically heard in a person who is being “treated” with mind-altering psychiatric drugs.

One of the most common side effects of psychiatric drugs is violent outbursts and thoughts of suicide.

Note: The shooter was originally mid-identified as Ryan Lanza but has now been corrected to Adam Lanza.

The Columbine High School shooters were, of course, on psychiatric drugs at the time they shot their classmates in 1999. Suicidal tendencies and violent, destructive thoughts are some of the admitted behavioral side effects of mind-altering prescription medications.

Then, rather incoherently, Adams switches gears to the claims that prescription drugs cause 100,000 deaths a year and arguing that guns should’t be banned based on this shooting incident but rather psychiatric drugs are at the root of the violence:

For guns to be as deadly as medications, you’d have to see a Newton-style massacre happening ten times a day, every day of the year. Only then would “gun violence” even match up to the number of deaths caused by doctor-prescribed, FDA-approved medications.

Why does America grieve for the children killed in Newton, but not for the medical victims killed by Big Pharma? Are the lives of people on medication not valuable compared to the lives of children in elementary school? Will Obama shed a tear for the victims of Big Pharma, or are his tears reserved only for politically expedient events that push his agenda of unconstitutional gun restrictions?

If our goal us to stop the violence in America, we are completely dishonest if we do not consider the mental causes of violent behavior. And that starts with mind-altering psychiatric drugs which I believe have unleashed a drug-induced epidemic of violence across our nation.

This is a claim we hear frequently from quacks like Mike Adams. Of course, at the time he started making these charges he had no evidence that Adam Lanza was even on psychiatric medications, much less that they caused or contributed to his having turned a school into an abattoir. Of course, little things like facts and science never stopped Adams in his relentless quest to be the firstest with the craziest, and this was no exception. A couple of days ago, not to keep the crazy under check, Adams followed up his original article with one entitled The solution to the insanity: Ban all people on psychiatric medication from owning guns, driving cars or voting for President. In his “satire,” he advocated banning people on psychiatric medications from driving, owning guns, or running for public office, proclaiming that “medication makes some people go crazy with violence.”

Nice how Mike Adams so casually demonizes those with mental illness, throwing around terms like “crazy.”

Be that as it may, Mike Adams isn’t the only one doing this. For instance, Teresa Conrick, over at the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, wrote a post the other day with a title almost as charming as Mike Adams’, Pharmagunddon: School Shooters and Psych Meds. After correctly castigating some media reports that the shooter Adam Lanza had Asperger’s, a justified response to the implication in some of these reports that it was autism that lead Lanza to become so violent, unfortunately Conrick goes straight into an anti-psychiatry rant as bad as anything Mike Adams has done.

If there’s one thing antivaccinationists are good at, it’s confusing correlation with causation. After all, the entire antivaccine belief system involves correlating increasing prevalence of autism over the last 20 years with increases in the number of vaccinations in the recommended childhood vaccine schedule. So it’s not at all surprising that Conrick thinks she’s found a correlation:

“Despite 22 international drug regulatory warnings on psychiatric drugs citing effects of mania, hostility, violence and even homicidal ideation, and dozens of high profile school shootings/killings tied to psychiatric drug use, there has yet to be a federal investigation on the link between psychiatric drugs and acts of senseless violence.”

“At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 109 wounded and 58 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs.) The most important fact about this list, is that these are only the shooters where the information about their psychiatric drug use was made public. To give an example, although it is known that James Holmes, suspected perpetrator of a mass shooting that occurred July 20, 2012, at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, was seeing psychiatrist Lynne Fenton, no mention has been made of what psychiatric drugs he may have been taking.

She then lists 14 more incidence of violence in which the perpetrator was taking psychiatric medications. As I said, confuse correlation with causation for vaccines, confuse correlation with causation regarding psychiatric medications for this issue. So what is the actual evidence? Clearly quackery supporters like Conrick and Adams are not interested in a balanced presentation; they’ve cherry picked their evidence to find only studies that suggest a link. The most prominent of these studies, which is referred to time and time again by those of Adams’ ilk is a study that was published in PLoS ONE a couple of years ago by Thomas J. Moore, Joseph Glenmullen, and Curt D. Furberg entitled Prescription Drugs Associated with Reports of Violence Towards Others.

Basically, this study was a review of adverse event reports from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Adverse Event Reporting System (AERS) from 2004 through 2009, searching for drugs with a disproportionate number of reports of AEs involving violence towards others. Disproportionality in reporting was defined as “a) 5 or more violence case reports, b) at least twice the number of reports expected given the volume of overall reports for that drug, c) a χ2 statistic indicating the violence cases were unlikely to have occurred by chance (p<0.01).” The authors identified 1,527 cases of violence reported disproportionately for 31 drugs. Some of the drugs included varenicline (used for smoking cessation), 11 antidepressants, 5 sedative/hypnotics, and three drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Among the drugs, varenicline stood out.

Of course, those of you who’ve been reading my posts on vaccines will see the problem with this study. The AERS database is one letter removed from the VAERS database (i.e., the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System). In fact, these days, it’s known as FAERS, the FDA Adverse Events Reporting System, and it serves essentially the same function as VAERS, namely to serve as a post-approval surveillance system, to serve as the “canary in the coal mine,” so to speak. However, it also shares all the problems with VAERS. The biggest problem is that FAERS, like VAERS, is a passive reporting system to which anyone can report suspected adverse events:

Reporting of adverse events and medication errors by healthcare professionals and consumers is voluntary in the United States. FDA receives some adverse event and medication error reports directly from healthcare professionals (such as physicians, pharmacists, nurses and others) and consumers (such as patients, family members, lawyers and others). Healthcare professionals and consumers may also report adverse events and/or medication errors to the products’ manufacturers. If a manufacturer receives an adverse event report, it is required to send the report to FDA as specified by regulations. The reports received directly and the reports from manufacturers are entered into FAERS.

I also can’t resist pointing out that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Critics of big pharma frequently castigate studies by investigators with conflicts of interest involving big pharma; so the conflicts of interest of the authors of this study are fair game in my book. They’re doozies, too:

Mr. Moore has received consulting fees from litigators in cases involving paroxetine, and was an expert witness in a criminal case involving varenicline. Dr. Glenmullen has been retained as an expert witness in cases involving varenicline and psychiatric drugs including antidepressants, antipsychotics, benzodiazepines, mood stablizers, and ADHD drugs. Dr. Furberg has received consulting fees from litigators in cases involving gabapentin.

Kind of like Andrew Wakefield being funded by trial lawyers, isn’t it? Dr. Glenmullen has also written books about “solutions” to getting off of antidepressants and castigating antidepressants as causing violence and all sorts of other horrific symptoms. One wonders what Conrick or Adams would say about studies showing these drugs not to be linked with violence if any of the study authors had been paid by a pharmaceutical company to sing the drugs’ praises or had written books about how great the drugs were. I think not. Of course, a COI alone does not mean that the study isn’t a good one or that it should be dismissed out of hand, nor am I advocating that. I do, however, marvel at how closely the competing interests line up with the findings of the study and am pointing out that the authors do have an ax to grind, which should color your interpretation of their results, along with one’s knowledge of how FAERS is like VAERS. Granted, it appears to be more rigorously administered than VAERS in that there is more medical moderation to assess potential plausibility, but it suffers from the same basic issues that VAERS does. Also, in all fairness, the majority of reports to FAERS come from health care professionals.

Be that as it may, this study is clearly based on finding correlations. It is preliminary, but that doesn’t mean the authors might not be on to something. After all, given the psychotropic effects of certain drugs it’s not implausible that some of them might be linked with violent behavior, and there is certainly other evidence that suggests that certain drugs can make violence more likely. On the other hand, one big problem with studies of this sort is that they rarely control for obvious confounders, such as measuring the baseline rate of violent behavior in patients with the condition who are not treated with the drug in question. As one commenter after a post about this study put it, “Did they screen for people being violent before they took medication? Violent? No, no I was neveeeer violent until I took this pill…” Again, it’s all correlation in a database not well equipped to provide anything but preliminary hypotheses to test in more rigorous trials, and there is no control group. An excellent review article points out some of these difficulties:

A number of epidemiological studies suggest that drugs can induce aggression, unfortunately many fundamental limitations exist in these types of studies linking crime to drugs. Most crimes are the result of a combination of factors such as economic, cultural, genetic, environmental, and interpersonal.8,13 Even when the drug is the cause it is often one of many factors that played a part in the event.8 The definition of “drug related” varies from study to study and among individuals. Many epidemiological studies rely on urine testing for drugs of abuse. Standard urine tests are often limited to a handful of substances.16 Certain substances, such as lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), are difficult to detect by standard urine drug testing methods.16 Additionally, reports by offenders may minimize or exaggerate the contribution of drugs to the given crime, leading to complications in reporting. Most forensic cases involve illicit drugs rather than prescription drugs. These drugs often come from clandestine sources, so the purity and authenticity of the substances cannot be certain. Direct human studies related to drug-induced aggression are limited and animal studies may provide as background information as to whether a drug can cause violence, for example cocaine.17

Psychiatric conditions associated with criminality include delirium, delusional disorder, dementias, impulse control disorders, bipolar disorder, depression, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, paraphilias, and traumatic brain injury.18 It is important to emphasize that most persons with mental illness are not violent and just having a diagnosis does not create additional risk for aggression. One could extrapolate that if a drug causes delirium or delusions (especially paranoid delusions) then it could result in violence. Unfortunately, mental illness is often a confounding factor in case reports both clinical and forensic. Mental illness may or may not be addressed in epidemiological studies.

The review article also points out that many drugs have been linked with violence based on various evidence but that it’s really hard to demonstrate in any given case that a specific drug contributed to a specific act of violence. Unfortunately, that’s exactly what Adams and Conrick are doing: Trying to blame psychiatric medications for Lanza’s rampage, even though it’s not even clear whether he was on psychiatric medications, and, if he was it’s not known which one(s). A previous report allegedly from Lanza’s uncle that he was on Fanapt was apparently highly dubious.

Be that as it may, regardless of whether Lanza was taking medications of any kind, psychiatric or other, there is no evidence that it was medications that caused his murderous child-killing rampage, any more than there is evidence that mental illness caused him to kill. Indeed, apparently he was assigned a school psychologist because of his social awkwardness and fear that he would be bullied by others or might harm himself. At this point, we just don’t know, and all too often people without a definable mental illness do truly evil things for reasons known only to themselves. While I can understand why a clueless wonder like Mike Adams is so anxious to blame evil acts on the products of big pharma. He thinks big pharma is the root of all evil and that the only answer are his “natural” cures. Conrick, on the other hand, has a special needs children. In correctly castigating writers who tried to imply that autism somehow led Lanza to kill, she turns right around and implies that it was medications associated with psychiatric conditions, thus demonizing those with psychiatric conditions as potential killers through their medications.

For shame.

Comments

  1. #1 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2013

    I’m struck by how often we see people overgeneralizing from too little data, often from a sample size of just one. Whether it’s a brain cancer patient surviving after being treated with antineoplastons, a person who feels that psych medication did them more harm than good, or someone who believes that all white men are sexual predators, it’s the same pattern we see repeating over and over. This human tendency might have kept us alive on the African savannah, but it certainly seems to cause us problems in the modern world.

  2. #2 sheepmilker
    February 14, 2013

    Krebs: case in point I see that your Mayor is trying to get rid of your beloved urban foxes. Please give them some extra chicken for me!

  3. #3 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2013

    sheepmilker,

    Please give them some extra chicken for me!

    Consider it done; hopefully it will make them less likely to snack on human babies. It was an alarming incident but, as you suggest, extremely rare. I also find it hard to understand how a fox gained access to a small child, especially given the recent cold weather. We haven’t had a window open in months and my wife is a fresh air fiend.

  4. #4 Off Meds
    New York
    February 14, 2013

    What ever happened to “Melissa G”? Did she OD on all her happy pills? Or is she really “Narad” or “Edith Dickly” or perhaps the wife of “AdamG” ? Oh, I’m such a bouncing flouncing godigity trolling jackass who only wishes I were from New York. I’m actually really glad I decided to post – this is all very entertaining.

  5. #5 Denice Walter
    February 14, 2013

    @ Krebiozen:

    Well, I hope that the long arm of the law does not grab YOUR foxes.

    So far, ours are strictly suburban, residing in and around parks with wooded areas. My friend and ex, respectively, observe and feed their own little friends in their respective ends of the park that extends alongside river.

    There was a great effort to spay and neuter feral cats: this is lamented by another gentleman who lost his cherished ‘Sheila’ to an unobservant driver.. no replacement thus far.

  6. #6 S
    February 14, 2013

    What ever happened to “Melissa G”? Did she OD on all her happy pills? Or is she really “Narad” or “Edith Dickly” or perhaps the wife of “AdamG” ? Oh, I’m such a bouncing flouncing godigity trolling jackass who only wishes I were from New York. I’m actually really glad I decided to post – this is all very entertaining.

    @Off Meds, you should print out your responses here and discuss them with your psychotherapist. It might be helpful for him/her to understand how you express yourself and handle conflict. I had some empathy for you in the beginning regarding your allegations that you were over-medicated, but seeing the way you are treating Melissa is despicable. Get some help and leave her alone.

  7. #7 Off Meds
    New York
    February 14, 2013

    BTW – thanks for the tips on Tor. I will be installing it shortly – after all, I wouldn’t want anyone to gain knowledge of my very secret, remote location and all the websites I visit, or anything else on my computer.

  8. #8 lilady
    February 14, 2013

    @ S: I told her up thread when she *threatened* to call her lawyer, to go ahead and do it…and make certain to email her/him all her nasty bullsh!t that she has posted here. I’m certain she calls her lawyer all the time.

    Time to put “Off Meds” in the Ignore Bin.

  9. #9 Chemmomo
    Common Courtesy
    February 14, 2013

    OffMeds @604

    What ever happened to “Melissa G”?

    I imagine she has no desire to interact with anyone who has been as rude to her as you have been.

  10. #10 Off Meds
    New York
    February 14, 2013

    “S” – Thanks for the advice. I will print this thread and discuss it with my psychotherapist. In fact, I’ll keep a hard copy of it on my person at all times as a constant reminder of how I handle conflict. Well, gotta flounce off to lunch!

  11. #11 flip
    February 14, 2013

    We need new trolls. This one even makes DJT look interesting.

  12. #12 Lawrence
    February 14, 2013

    @flip – yes, the self-aggrandizing arrogance & moronic tone is quite boring….

  13. #13 Rose
    February 14, 2013

    Remote location in the Big Apple?
    By the way, I am someone who could have sympathy, except for the tone of the comments. A family member was admitted to a psychiatric hospital due to medication problems. Said family member is on different meds and doing fine. I understand the point, but not the tone.

  14. #14 Khani
    February 14, 2013

    #606 @S

    You know, I’m starting to think she’s just been lying from start to finish. I think it’s likely that a person who has actually been mentally ill would have more sympathy for others who have suffered.

  15. #15 LW
    February 14, 2013

    @Khani, “a person who has actually been mentally ill” — perhaps the problem is that you should be using the present tense.

  16. #16 S
    February 14, 2013

    @Khani, I really do not believe that she is lying. I think she is very angry about how she has been mistreated and expects people, even strangers on the Internet, to believe her story. When her story was questioned, instead of explaining it, she became defensive and gave an outburst of anger followed by accusations. That was then fueled by other comments, and it took off from there. She dug into Michelle at first because she couldn’t accept that someone could have a positive experience with medications when she had not. Michelle’s honest and straight-forward comment did not validate the harm Off Meds feels has been done to her.

    It seems like she has been mistreated, or at least she believes that she has been mistreated. Clearly, she is lacking some communication skills on how to deal with difficult situations. All in all, it is a learning process to come out of difficult situations like hers, I would imagine. I’ve never had ECT or known anyone who has. In any case, I believe her. I’ve seen similar reactions to similar situations in person many times. I think it is hard for people to realize that not everyone is always out to ‘attack’ them, but sometimes people listening need to ask questions in order to understand any given situation better. It’s hard to appreciate that when one comes from a very dysfunctional environment where emotional or even physical attacks are the norm. You brace yourself after every spoken word, and attack first. It’s like emotional survival. I would guess that Denice could explain this better.

  17. #17 Off Meds
    New York
    February 14, 2013

    I explained my story in my very first post. I became angry when people began accusing me of lying. I never, nor would ever, accuse anyone of lying – especially someone I do not know – unless there was hard evidence. I have suffered an extreme amount at the hands of psychiatrists who over medicated me and electroshocked me, but clearly no one here has any sympathy for that or wants to even hear that. I think it is only human nature to get angry when others are making false accusations towards you. I apologize if my tone was too harsh at times – People tend to have a bit of a tough attitude where I’m from. I sincerely wish everyone a happy and healthy Valentine’s day. I might be flouncing now, but I’m still not even sure what that means – like I said, I’m new to this. Again, Happy Valentines Day 🙂

  18. #18 LW
    February 14, 2013

    @Off Meds, you gave a lengthy description of your suffering. That is an anecdote.   Melissa G responded,

    While I extend my empathy and condolences for the pain you went through, Off Meds, my experience was completely the reverse– I am well and happy now that I am medicated, and would not go back to the hell of my pre-medicated emotions for love nor money.

    She did not deny your suffering; she did not argue with you or call you a liar; she merely gave her own anecdote, just as valid as yours, and you immediately insulted her:

    Congratulations on your drug induced happiness, Melissa G. Could you elaborate on the statement “would not go back to the hell of my pre-medicated emotions for love nor money”? Are you saying that you don’t need love or money to survive in this world? If so, what planet are you living on?

    You were not reacting to someone else; there were no other comments in between. You just decided to gratuitously insult her. That set the pattern for the conversation, so you really should not be surprised that other people were less than friendly to you initially.  Your responses of course fully confirmed the bad impression you made initially.

  19. #19 S
    February 14, 2013

    ^ @616, substitute “Melissa” for “Michelle”. Sorry about that, Melissa G.

  20. #20 Off Meds
    New York
    February 14, 2013

    Oh, please – I asked her to elaborate. Why was her life a living hell before she was able to reach a state of happiness and well being through medications? She never explained her story but then I immediately got attacked and was accused of lying by so many others. I did not insult her. I asked her to elaborate in a very typical Brooklynese tone. Oh great, now everyone knows I’m from Brooklyn. Again, I did not mean to insult anyone, but I understand that some people are more sensitive than others. I apologize if I hurt Melissa’s feelings.

  21. #21 lilady
    February 14, 2013

    Isn’t it *odd* that I located a 2002 thread that discusses a particularly vicious troll who used the ‘nym “Off Meds”. That “Off Meds” person was located in Las Vegas, Nevada.

  22. #22 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    I noticed for a few days that this thread came back active but it’s been a week I’ve been off RI.

    @ Off meds,

    I’ve been on treatment from 2 psychiatrists, the first one adverse to medication overprescription but with a wrong diagnostic so he ended up prescribing the canadian version of depakote for bipolar disorder (my real diagnostic is post-traumatic stress disorder but he never diagnosed me as such).

    The second psychiatrist do research on medication for schizophrenia and he’s on call for when doctors need advices on cocktail of medication, be it psychiatric or not. His most recent case study was the medication of a client doing chemotherapy and he was called on to prescribe medication which would not interfere with her chemotherapy.

    Both doctors have PhDs in addition to their MDs but the first one is a machine to diagnose autism case and he’s just about perfect to do that, just that the rest of his practice lies in the 60’s and really pales in comparison to the second….the second doctor has his PhD in medication studies (don’t remember exactly which field, they’re both french natives but it must pharmacology or a similar field).

    My point is, I’m taking a cocktail of medication, but there’s no overprescribing. Period. but my concern is that there’s a real need of guidelines in prescription practices and also medication weaning practice and doctors shouldn’t need a PhD in pharmacology to be effective prescribers but sadly, I have the best experience with them.

    I want to be a doctor too and have been considering (so far) psychiatry, surgery (neuro), or radiology. You might notice that they’re in increasing scale of science with the latest two heavily science based but as far as psychiatry goes, it’s not as science-based as the rest of medicine is (I failed to find a weaning protocol to wash out medication effect on pubmed despite hours of searching) and unfortunately, I have no science-based advice given your medication load because my course in brain physiology never included information about medication and I don’t have any course on medical physiology to be able to give an informed opinion.

    Alain

  23. #23 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Oh, please – I asked her to elaborate.

    You “asked her to elaborate” immediately following a direct insult, and your putative question was completely incoherent unless further interpreted as another insult.

  24. #24 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Wow, you’ve got a lot of time on your hands, Lilady. Never been to Vegas myself, but I guess there’s some one there who also decided to go off his/her meds.

  25. #25 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    @ lilady,

    The 2002 thread, where it is?

    Thanks

    Alain

  26. #26 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain – cool. I suggest you keep up with your studies and reach for the stars. Sounds like you’re a very ambitious person – I respect that, bro. Truly.

  27. #27 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain, I personally have had wonderful experiences with surgeons and radiologist (I had malignant melanoma 5 years ago) Psychiatrists not so much. But that’s only my own personal experience.

  28. #28 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    I want to be a doctor too and have been considering (so far) psychiatry, surgery (neuro), or radiology.

    Alain, that first choice is a noble one, but it’s frustrating as hell. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but a couple of years ago, I ran into an old college acquaintance who had burnt out on geriatrics. When I asked him what he was retraining for, it was psychiatry. All I could muster was an offer of good luck.

    Have you thought about something with a little bit less odds of grinding you down?

  29. #29 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain – I personally have had wonderful experiences with surgeons and radiologists (I had malignant melanoma 5 years ago). Psychiatrists not so much. But that’s my own personal experience.

  30. #30 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    You’re right, Narad. It doesn’t seem like psychiatrists really enjoy their work – based on my experience, they always seem a bit cold. I dated a radiologist for a while who loved his work and found it very rewarding.

  31. #31 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    @ Narad,

    Radiology seem to be the best fit for me based on my experience in neuroimaging (off meds: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alain+toussaint if you’re curious). I have the desire to help and I know it’s possible with psychiatry (well, my doctor does it but I make that easy in my case…) but it seem that peoples need to want to change if their doctors are actually able to help them, otherwise, we’re just powerless (even with involuntary commitment…)

    Alain

  32. #32 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    You’re right, Narad. It doesn’t seem like psychiatrists really enjoy their work – based on my experience, they always seem a bit cold. I dated a radiologist for a while who loved his work and found it very rewarding.

    Do me a favor and quit trying to pretend that your history here can magically be distracted out of existence. Try addressing this for a start.

  33. #33 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Wow, Narad. You get so angry so easily. And you seem to know so much about psychiatry for someone who claims he isn’t a psychiatrist. I knew a girl who was only on Abilify to treat her depression and I do find the advertisements misleading. Does that answer your question?

  34. #34 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    And, pursuant to #632, don’t try to put words in my mouth. I wasn’t making any assertion about whether “psychiatrists really enjoy their work,” I was stating that, akin to geriatrics, it’s hard.

  35. #35 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    I knew a girl who was only on Abilify to treat her depression and I do find the advertisements misleading. Does that answer your question?

    No, it does not answer the question in the slightest. And I’m not angry. Perhaps this is a word that you use by default for other perceptions.

  36. #36 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I was not at all trying to put words into your mouth. Where did you get that from? I simply stated that based on my experience with several, they do not seem to enjoy their work as much as surgeons and radiologist – referring to Alain’s posts about his career aspirations.

  37. #37 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    I was not at all trying to put words into your mouth. Where did you get that from? I simply stated that based on my experience with several

    Perhaps you have forgotten the prefatory “You’re right, Narad” before advancing your own story.

  38. #38 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Like I said, Alain. Respect. And it sounds like you may have had some things in your life that needed to be changed and you were able to recognize that. Are you taking any other medications other than Depakote? I was on that in my early 20’s and it made me severely nauseous.

  39. #39 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Sorry, Narad. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying. It happens.

  40. #40 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    Off meds:

    I was weaned off the depakote (never had any issues with it except lack of focus or concentration) but currently, I’m taking five meds, one for the thyroid gland, one for ADD, the rest for psychiatric problem but I will get weaned off from them in the next few years. Never had any nausea regarding meds.

    Alain

  41. #41 lilady
    February 15, 2013

    @ Alain: I would be very careful responding to “Off Meds” and providing her with any personal medical history.

  42. #42 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    @ lilady, Ok.

    Al

  43. #43 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain, Can I ask why you will be weaned off of them in a few years?

  44. #44 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain, I also experienced lack of focus and concentration as a side effect of many meds I was on – for me, that was a pretty big issue since I prefer to be alert.

  45. #45 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    Alain, Can I ask why you will be weaned off of them in a few years?

    Because I’m in remission, I won’t need them anymore (except for the thyroid gland and maybe the ADD medication).

    Alain

  46. #46 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Sorry in advance if this is posting twice. It didn’t seem to post the first time. Anyway, Alain. I too experienced lack of focus and concentration as side effects of many meds I was on. And for me it was a big issue since I prefer to be alert.

  47. #47 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain – Interesting, in all my years as a psych patient I never heard the term remission used. Maybe psychiatry is different here. Well, I wish you all the best.

  48. #48 lilady
    February 15, 2013

    @ Alain: My friend’s son was on Depakene syrup (he couldn’t swallow capsules), as treatment for a difficult-to-control seizure disorder.

    He had some breakthrough Lennox-Gasteux seizures during the ten years he was taking the medication. Just at the time my friend’s father was about to undergo serious surgery, her son developed hives and the Depakene had to be withdrawn immediately (in the hospital).

    Dilatin Infatabs (Phenytoin), were substituted along with Lorazapam which prevented multiple seizures (for about 18 months), when he went into status epilepticus. I cared for him in the hospital and just before the “seizure team” at the childrens hospital was about to suggest general anesthesia to (hopefully) stop the seizures, I suggested a trial on Mysoline (Primidone), and he received a loading dose. Within a few hours the hundreds of seizures per day he was experiencing lessened, and within 12 hours they stopped.

    Now, Dilantin and Mysoline are not “supposed” to be effective treatments for Lennox-Gasteux seizures, but that regimen has been in place for him for more than 20 years.

    (Yes, the control of seizures for some children is a *crap shoot*)

  49. #49 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    @ Alain: I would be very careful responding to “Off Meds” and providing her with any personal medical history.

    I concur, Alain. You represent nothing but a tool of perceived opportunity for her.

  50. #50 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    @ lilady,

    How did your nursing courses prepared you to make that suggestion?

    @ Narad,

    Got it and I knew it; I was prepared to be used as tool of opportunity but all I advocated was SBM as my current doctor practice it and I am one case where the doctor did well (same for Melissa G) and the treatment worked.

    Alain

  51. #51 lilady
    February 15, 2013

    @ Alain: Nursing courses? No. “On the job training”, caring for my son who had a severe grand mal and psychomotor seizure disorder.

    For the first six years of his life, his seizures were extremely difficult to control, in spite of 4 potent anti-convulsant medications that were titrated every few days. I made *friends* with the director of a medical laboratory who would run the sophisticated serum blood level testing, whenever my son was in seizure crisis and whenever he was hospitalized. (The hospitals at that time (1976-1982), were not equipped to run those tests and would send his serum to a research center for testing). I also had his neurologist contact the director of that research center who did not see patients, but he agreed to meet with me.

    When you have children who have partially controlled or uncontrolled seizures, you become quite knowledgeable about anti-convulsants and their interactions/serum therapeutic ranges.

    I’ll catch you later Alain, and good night. 🙂

  52. #52 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Ah, I can’t sleep. Narad – How dare you call Alain a tool. How rude – I suggest you apologize.

  53. #53 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I think Alain is a very nice person and I was just trying to have a conversation with him. Sure he needs to work on his English a bit, just like I have to work on my attitude, but people can’t help where they’re from.

  54. #54 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    No Little Lady – please don’t flounce now. I just woke up and was looking forward to all your lil-insults.

  55. #55 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Twas Big Pharma that led me to start posting here. BIG PHARMA!!

  56. #56 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Ah, I can’t sleep. Narad – How dare you call Alain a tool. How rude – I suggest you apologize.

    Either you’re straight-up troll or unable to read, johnnycakes.

  57. #57 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I prefer pancakes

  58. #58 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Twas Big Pharma that led me to start posting here – BIG PHARMA!!! Blame them!

  59. #59 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    I prefer pancakes

    If you put your finely honed mind to it, you might figure out why I chose that term.

  60. #60 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I truly believe that you know you’re doing okay if you can always laugh at yourself. I’ve also noticed that Shrinky-dinks seem to be lacking in the sense of humor department.

  61. #61 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Why don’t my messages post the first time? I’ll try again – I truly believe that you know you’re doing okay if you can always laugh at yourself. I’ve also noticed that Shrinky-dinks seem to be lacking in the sense of humor department.

  62. #62 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Oh -now it’s posting

  63. #63 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    How dare you call Alain a tool. How rude – I suggest you apologize.

    I feel the need to revisit this. Indeed, one might suspect that saying such a thing as I did to someone who is well known, well respected for openness, and well liked might be considered a form of condescension.

    I offer the following as apology.*

    * Yes, I know there are technical issues. I’m about to keel over.

  64. #64 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Wow, Narad – I can see you have trouble controlling your violent outbursts. Perhaps you should try Haldol? I’m keeling over as well.

  65. #65 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Twas BIG PHARMA, I tell ya! BIG PHARMA!!!!

  66. #66 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Wow, Narad – I can see you have trouble controlling your violent outbursts.

    And I see that you don’t understand French or have any knowledge of 1970s cultural icons.

  67. #67 Agashem
    Blowin' in the wind
    February 15, 2013

    Holy Moley, did ‘off meds’ find solace in another form of psychotropic medication? Perhaps in the form of fermented grape juice or perhaps something a little more illegal? Makes me pine for the old trolls who were consistently confused and one note.

  68. #68 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Narad, your last post was #666 – Are you the Devil incarnate? Twas Big Pharma that led me to this site! Why?! Why?!

  69. #69 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    However, given that you’ve now invoked haloperidol, I’m still waiting on a coherent answer to this. As you have instead attempted to broaden the field, I would ask that you compare and contrast the mechanisms of action between the agents that you have trotted out.

    Because, it’s surely not as though you’re just bobbing for words that you’ve never given a moment’s serious thought to, right?

  70. #70 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Narad, your last post was #666 – Are you the Devil incarnate?

    If you wish, sure. The perceived world is the unconscious mind, if you want the advanced summary.

  71. #71 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Narad, I guess you’re just not as witty as I am. If you don’t get it, then you simply don’t get it. Like I said, I truly do believe that you know you’re doing okay if you can always laugh at yourslef.

  72. #72 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Like I said, I truly do believe that you know you’re doing okay if you can always laugh at yourslef.

    I take it this includes chuckling idiotically at one’s own cleverness while sending off insulting remarks to unknown people in a forum that one has randomly decided to invade.

  73. #73 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I don’t need to be told about how the perceieved world relates to the unconscious mind – I once had a very bad trip on trileptal. And I was just kidding about the Devil thing – evil is very rare these days and you seem to be a really nice guy who’s genuinely concerned about the wellfare of others.

  74. #74 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I’ve been insulted on here far more times than I have insulted anyone else. What can I say – I’m a fighter. A true survivor. Must be in my blood – after all I’ve been through I should be dead or in an insane asylum for life.

  75. #75 LW
    February 15, 2013

    Evidently Off Meds is one of those who believes she can be as nasty, spiteful, and unpleasant as she wishes and then avoid the natural response to her behavior by whining that “it’s just a joke, can’t you laugh at yourself the way I’m laughing at you?”

  76. #76 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    I’ve been insulted on here far more times than I have insulted anyone else.

    Tally it up, in detail. You’re the one that came right off the rail with an insult and hasn’t been able to let up. Or get around to answering some of the straightforward questions that resulted from your own remarks rather than patting yourself on the head.

  77. #77 LW
    February 15, 2013

    Off Meds says, “I’ve been insulted on here far more times than I have insulted anyone else”. Partly that’s because she interprets anything other than fervent agreement as an insult — witness her insults to Melissa G who did nothing but respond to her anecdote with another anecdote — and partly because each of her rude, spiteful, and unpleasant comments were responded to by a number of other commenters, as naturally occurs on a forum, her nastiness was reflected back on her, multiplied.

  78. #78 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Read through the thread again – I’ve answered all of the straightforward questions, some multiple times because the same questions were being asked over and over again. And it looks like anyone who has come to this thread with a story of how psych meds have harmed them or a loved one is immediately shot down.

  79. #79 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Sorry – has been immediately shot down.

  80. #80 Narad
    February 15, 2013

    Read through the thread again – I’ve answered all of the straightforward questions

    Not only have you completely failed to answer a very straightforward question about Abilify, you have tried to muddy the waters by tossing in Haldol. Perhaps it is you who should read through the thread again.

  81. #81 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Still stuck on Mel, huh? I already apologized for hurting her feelings – I truly did not mean for my tone to be so offensive, but I understand that some people are more sensitiev than others.

  82. #82 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I feel that I did answer that question to the best of my ability – am I the only one laughing here? God, I love laughing…

  83. #83 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    sensitiev – I meant sensitive. That was my french typing.

  84. #84 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Whether you like me or not you gotta admit, I’m funny.

  85. #85 LW
    February 15, 2013

    @Off Meds, your totally uncalled-for insults to Melissa G were just the beginning. You followed up by calling every commenter a pharma shill, suggested you were going to call your lawyer on lilady or the commenters in general, and then said all the commenters are “internet addicted losers”. And that’s just through comment #584.

  86. #86 LW
    February 15, 2013

    @Off Meds: “Whether you like me or not you gotta admit, I’m funny.”

    Not even remotely.

  87. #87 Alain
    February 15, 2013

    @Narad, Thanks for the video, great way to start the morning (way too early: 8:14am….)

    Alain

  88. #88 S
    February 15, 2013

    What can I say – I’m a fighter. A true survivor. Must be in my blood – after all I’ve been through I should be dead or in an insane asylum for life.

    Off Meds – You may be a “fighter”, but is seems that you enjoy it – fighting. Of course, that’s your choice, if you want to live your life fighting everyone who holds an opinion different to yours. Referring to your snide remark to Melissa G is a good example of picking a fight and trying to demean her when she was utmost polite, honest and straight-forward with you. Keep treating people like that, and you will have to keep fighting. I would have had more respect for you if you had stated that you intentionally made that remark to her because you were angry, and admitted and apologized for your behavior, instead of trying to excuse it as your sense of humor.

  89. #89 flip
    February 15, 2013

    @Off Meds

    . I have suffered an extreme amount at the hands of psychiatrists who over medicated me and electroshocked me, but clearly no one here has any sympathy for that or wants to even hear that.[…]And it looks like anyone who has come to this thread with a story of how psych meds have harmed them or a loved one is immediately shot down.

    Then you either ignored or didn’t understand my post to you, nor anybody else’s.

    You also didn’t come here to post a story about your life, you came here with the intention of telling people meds are useless for mental health issues. This is a science blog, so naturally the regulars here will debate any point of you which involves the science of medications.

    I agree with the others, you simply launched into a tirade without much to provoke it. And then got bored of waiting for people to respond to your idiotic trolling.

    Sigh… I’m seriously missing Squidymus now. Don’t you hate that, you only like them once they’re gone?

    Whether you like me or not you gotta admit, I’m funny.

    No, just incredibly unimaginative and dull.

    … Someone please post the link to the 2002 thread because I can’t find it.

  90. #90 Rose
    February 15, 2013

    Funny? No,
    Off meds seems to assume that she is owed something because she had bad experiences with members of the medical community. If so what she is owed is due from the doctors by whom she was ill-treated and not the commenters here.
    She is not the only one who has had to endure suffering in this life. That is why the earth is not called heaven. It happens to all of us.

  91. #91 flip
    February 15, 2013

    #689 is in moderation… too many darn links!

  92. #92 Edith Prickly
    February 15, 2013

    I asked her to elaborate in a very typical Brooklynese tone. Oh great, now everyone knows I’m from Brooklyn.

    Interesting. Sh*tznoxeplainia/Fear Fraud & Force’s initial post @458 shows Bronx, NY as the location. FFF disappears for a couple of weeks, then another obnoxious twit from New York with a strangely similar conversational style shows up and starts trolling all the people who argued with its previous incarnations – and tries to evade criticism by claiming to be a young woman with a lurid history of psychiatric abuse. Now it’s posing as a hard-boiled chick from Brooklyn. What stereotyped persona will it inflict on us next?

    I might be flouncing now, but I’m still not even sure what that means – like I said, I’m new to this. Bullshit. Time to get a new shtick loser, you’ve beaten this one into the ground.

  93. #93 Khani
    February 15, 2013

    #616 @S You’re probably right.

    It’s just hard to believe that someone who has had real issues and overcome them would administer a verbal kick like that to a fellow-sufferer with no more provocation than having experienced success differently.

    I guess some people are just different.

  94. #94 Edith Prickly
    trapped in the moderation queue
    February 15, 2013

    Slightly edited version of the comment that went into moderation:

    I asked her to elaborate in a very typical Brooklynese tone. Oh great, now everyone knows I’m from Brooklyn.

    Interesting. Sh**znoexplainia/Fear Fraud & Force’s initial post at 458 shows Bronx, NY as the location. FFF disappears for a couple of weeks, then another obnoxious twit from New York with a strangely similar conversational style shows up and starts trolling all the people who argued with its previous incarnations – and tries to evade criticism by claiming to be a young woman with a lurid history of psychiatric abuse. Now it’s posing as a hard-boiled chick from Brooklyn. What stereotyped persona will it inflict on us next?

    I might be flouncing now, but I’m still not even sure what that means – like I said, I’m new to this.

    Nice try. Time to get a new shtick loser, you’ve beaten this one into the ground.

  95. #95 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Alain- I can see you’ve been practicing your English…
    ” @Narad, Thanks for the video, great way to start the morning (way too early: 8:14am….) ”
    Not one mistake in that sentence, except maybe for a comma being where a period should be. But, other than that, all the words flowed together very nicely. I’m impressed, Bro. I’m impressed.

  96. #96 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Edith – you really are a Prick. And a stupid one at that.

  97. #97 Edith Prickly
    mortally wounded
    February 15, 2013

    Edith – you really are a Prick. And a stupid one at that.

    Well, I have been served. I’m going to go drown my sorrow in some mind-altering champagne, then have a laugh with my imaginary boyfriend about Internet trolls who don’t know when to quit.

  98. #98 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    Edith – that sounds about right, except I’m guessing you couldn’t even find yourself an “imaginary boyfriend”. The best you can do is accuse people of lying. That takes brains – real brains, especially when your last name is Prick.

  99. #99 Gray Falcon
    February 15, 2013

    @Off Meds-Has your technique of using juvenile insults instead of evidence ever worked?

  100. #100 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    I use plenty of evidence; She accuses me of being someone else, making up my story, having an “imaginary boyfriend” and her last name is in fact PRICKly.

  101. #101 lilady
    Real (former) "Brooklyn Girl"
    February 15, 2013

    Edith: I’ve got the popcorn and I’m sitting back watching the show…while Narad cuts her off at the knees. 🙂

  102. #102 MI Dawn
    February 15, 2013

    @lilady: given that my ex’s parents are both from Brooklyn, are some new friends, I’d personally say she’s not one of the best examples of someone from there.

    I DID get a snicker out her reading you ‘nym as “little lady” rather than your location of LI.

    While I won’t comment on her purported medical history, I will again say that I am glad I have not met her in meatspace. I assume she is as unpleasant in person as she is in her writings.

  103. #103 S
    February 15, 2013

    @Off Meds – How long have you been off your meds?

  104. #104 Edith Prickly
    February 15, 2013

    lilady: quite the performance, isn’t it? We should send Off Meds over to the TMR blog for lessons on how to throw a real diva tantrum. “Her’ game is getting weak.

    Speaking of weak:

    The best you can do is accuse people of lying.

    Not “people”, just you.

  105. #106 Edith Prickly
    one more poke and then I'll drop it, I promise
    February 15, 2013

    An interesting development on another thread previously inhabited (infested?) by FFF – there is a new commenter calling himself Ben who just posted a rambling summary of interviews with ambiguous quotes from psychiatrists pasted in: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/12/24/andrew-wakefield-wins-an-award-just-as-he-jumps-on-the-anti-psychiatry-bandwagon/#comment-238233

    And back on this thread, it seems that Off Meds has finally stuck the flounce. I wonder why?

  106. #107 S
    February 15, 2013

    @706 – This is just too much BS to keep track of. No wonder Orac needs a whole team of regulars here to help. Just when I think someone like Off Meds comes along with a legit complaint, and was even treated a bit rough, you guys start piecing this together.

    Say it ain’t so, Off Meds? Are you now posting under different names on RI, all at the same time? That sure makes it rough for patients with legitimate complaints of a similar nature to be taken seriously. If you’re doing this, who do you think you’re helping?

  107. #108 Off Meds
    New York
    February 15, 2013

    So, you admit that you’re “a whole team” – well, at least I finally got that outta ya. MI Dawn – that’s such a pretty photo of you – was it taken at your ex’s parents’ home here in Brooklyn? BTW, is MI short for Michigan or miniature? Lilady – One more word outta you young lady and I’m calling my lawyer! Hahaha – or should I type lol lol lol…
    And no, I’m not posting anywhere else “s”- I honestly don’t have time for that. But keep accusing people of doing things they are not. You people seem to have an extreme amount of time on your hands.

  108. #109 lilady
    February 16, 2013

    Here’s six more words outta me. Now call your lawyer…6 times.

  109. #110 Narad
    February 16, 2013

    So, you admit that you’re “a whole team” – well, at least I finally got that outta ya.

    You’re slow, aren’t you?

    Well, we shot the line and we went for broke
    With a thousand screamin’ trucks
    And eleven long-haired friends of Jesus
    In a chartreuse microbus.

  110. #111 Narad
    February 16, 2013

    (I can do Alice’s Restaurant, too, if you want.)

  111. #112 novalox
    February 16, 2013

    @off meds

    Going for the vexatious lawsuit path?

    Better be prepared to pay lilady a lot of money for harassment.

  112. #113 S
    February 16, 2013

    (I can do Alice’s Restaurant, too, if you want.)

    My treat. This is the least I can do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNLE5z7jNaM

  113. #114 Narad
    The Group W bench
    February 16, 2013

    You know, if one person, just one person, does it, they may think he’s really sick, and they won’t take him.

    And if two people, two people, do it — in harmony — they’ll think they’re both faggots, and they won’t take either of ’em.

    And if three people do it, three — can you imagine, three people walking in, singing a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out? They may think it’s an organization.

    And can you, can you imagine 50 people a day — I said
    50 people a day — walking in, singing a bar of Alice’s Restaurant, and walking out? Friends, they may think it’s a movement.

    And that’s what it is.

    KIDS, REHABILITATE YOURSELVES ACCORDINGLY.

  114. #115 Off Meds
    New York
    February 16, 2013

    “Going for the vexatious lawsuit path?”
    Not at all – it was a joke, but I can tell nobody here has a sense of humor. And since I prefer interacting with people who do, I must be flouncing off again. Before I flounce, didn’t some of you already suggest putting me in the “ignore bin”? Where’s the “teamwork” guys? I wanna see some team spirit – just ignore me already. Hope everyone has a fun filled exciting weekend 🙂

  115. #116 Narad
    February 16, 2013

    this is actually my first time posting comments online

    Where’d you pick up the emoticons?

  116. #117 Off Meds
    New York
    February 16, 2013

    I sometimes text genius, and send emails. It’s Saturday evening – I gotta bounce, I mean flounce.
    P.S. Narad, you’re not being a very good team player

  117. #118 Off Meds
    New York
    February 16, 2013

    Oh. I forgot to add this emoticon 😉 – I learned that from my blackberry, and Sarah Palin . Peace out!

  118. #119 Narad
    February 16, 2013

    I sometimes text genius

    Somehow, I doubt that brevity would lead to this outcome in your case.

  119. #120 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    Sorry for my long flouncing – had to get back to my life for a while. So, young lady, you’re an ex Brooklynite who now lives in Long Island? How bout that. Wanna meet at Roosevelt Field for some shopping? How bout this, we can meet at the food court -I’ll buy you some popcorn and then I’ll even treat you to expensive Nordsrom hosiery. What part of Brooklyn are you from? And don’t tell me Williamsburg or Park Slope.

  120. #121 Narad
    February 17, 2013

    Wanna meet at Roosevelt Field for some shopping?

    This is the worst parody of The Warriors ever.

  121. #122 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 17, 2013

    I was going to address Off Meds’ comments on the modern mental health system, but then realized there was no point. Why? Because every single accusation she makes against the modern mental health system – feel free to point out any exception I missed – is dependent upon her perceptions. If we do not believe her perceptions to be accurate, we have no reason to think her critiques of modern medicine are accurate.

    She claims that when she said “Congratulations on your drug-induced happiness” to someone who had done her no wrong, she didn’t perceive that statement as being any different from the simpler “Congratulations on your happiness.” Even in the rather unlikely case that that’s true, what it tells us is that her perceptions are so unreliable as to make her opinions of little weight.

  122. #123 MI Dawn
    February 17, 2013

    @Narad – there actually is a mall on Long Island called Roosevelt Field. Nassau county.

    @LIlady – i need to figure out how to send you my email again.

  123. #124 lilady
    February 17, 2013

    @ MI Dawn: You could always get in touch with our mutual friend to get my email.

  124. #125 MarkL
    February 17, 2013

    @Antaeus

    If we do not believe her perceptions to be accurate, we have no reason to think her critiques of modern medicine are accurate.

    I don’t believe anything about “her”….

    A more blatant display of trolling I haven’t seen. “She” has nothing to offer other than a story that, even if it is true, adds nothing to the debate even as anecdotal evidence. “She” is just being disruptive and slyly insulting to anyone who engages with “her”.

    Ignore “her” and she will either go away or make such a fool of “herself” that Orac will have to get the ban hammer out again.

  125. #126 lilady
    February 17, 2013

    @ Mark L: I *suspected* from the early comments, that he/her/it was trolling…later comments *confirmed* my suspicions.

  126. #127 S
    February 17, 2013

    I don’t believe anything about “her”….

    May I ask what information you would require from “her” in order for you to believe her story?

  127. #128 MarkL
    February 17, 2013

    @S

    It is irrelevant whether I believe her story or not. Someone standing up and shouting “look at me, I don’t take any medication now and I have a fabulous life” adds nothing to the argument on either side, and that is all Off Meds has done before going on to try and antagonise everyone.

  128. #129 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    Narad, you, as well as others on your team, seem to be exhibiting the signs of “Advice Deficit Disorder” which, of course, is a new disorder that will be recognized in the next DSM. I heard from Dr. Oz, or maybe it was one of those really good looking doctors on my TV, that this disorder is being treated with pure Chrystal Meth. Young Lady, you are exhibiting all the signs of “Your Own Advice Hyper-Activity Deficit Disorder”, which is being treated with pure cocaine. I strongly suggest that you snort all drugs as directed since both are classified as stimulants and affect the dopamine levels of the brain, as do many antidepressants, and can lead to side effect such as hostility, aggression and worsening of the aforementioned new “ADD” and “ADHD” disorders. I have no way of proving if I am a “her”, “she” or “it” unless I post a photo of my vagina, which I am not willing to do. Before I “flounce”, I will leave you with some links to some of my peeps (some, may they rest in peace). Hope you enjoy. And keep taking your prescribed drugs for all your “Advice Disorders”.
    Once again, I apologize in advance if I am unable to promptly respond to all comments ( that is if your new version of “ADD” and “ADHD” isn’t being rectified through prescribed drug), I was recently diagnosed with a current form of Drapetomania.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q96-e042bk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyX7dHmaRlA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J91ti_MpdHA

  129. #130 Narad
    February 17, 2013

    there actually is a mall on Long Island called Roosevelt Field. Nassau county.

    Oh, I had no doubt about that. The reference was to this. And we all know how that worked out for Luther.

  130. #131 S
    February 17, 2013

    @Off Meds – Reading your comments, and seeing the first two videos @729, as well as listening to the last one, all I can say is that you are stigmatizing yourself. You’re doing a great job of it too. Good luck to you.

  131. #132 Narad
    February 17, 2013

    May I ask what information you would require from “her” in order for you to believe her story?

    For my part, the question doesn’t mean anything. I nonetheless do not believe that it’s employed—the combination of obvious inability to either manage anger or, in fact, think tends to be something of a stumbling block in this regard. As I stated earlier, granting the rest of the story, this has trust fund written all over it.

  132. #133 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    I don’t need luck for I have great fortune. We’re all laughing, dancing and toasting to some “mind altering champagne” here in NYC. All our best to everyone! Flouncing off now!!!

  133. #134 Lawrence
    February 17, 2013

    @offmeds – thanks for proving how much of a “douchebag” you are…..I wonder if you were really ever trying to make a point or just interested in trolling.

  134. #135 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    “S” We’re just wondering why you didn’t view the third video; Did you feel “threatened” by it, or her?

  135. #136 MI Dawn
    February 17, 2013

    @Lawrence et al: I’ve decided OM is not worth responding to. He/She/It was rude and demeaning almost from the get-go and the tantrums for attention get as much as they deserve – none from now on It’s like dealing with a toddler and I’ve had enough of them for the current time.

  136. #137 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    Yes, Miniature Dawn, that is precisely why you should be giving your toddler stimulants, instead of love. I’ll leave you with another great song.

  137. #138 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    I noticed that one of my posts did not go through. I’ll repeat “S”, why did you not view the third video? Did you feel “threatened” by it, or her?

  138. #139 Khani
    February 17, 2013

    #734 @lawrence

    I think we all know the answer to that already.

  139. #140 lilady
    February 17, 2013

    ” Young Lady, you are exhibiting all the signs of “Your Own Advice Hyper-Activity Deficit Disorder”, which is being treated with pure cocaine. I strongly suggest that you snort all drugs as directed since both are classified as stimulants and affect the dopamine levels of the brain, as do many antidepressants, and can lead to side effect such as hostility, aggression and worsening of the aforementioned new “ADD” and “ADHD” disorders. I have no way of proving if I am a “her”, “she” or “it” unless I post a photo of my vagina, which I am not willing to do.”

    Busted, Off Meds…what makes you think any of us want to see your crotch shots?

    @ Narad:

    “…. As I stated earlier, granting the rest of the story, this has trust fund written all over it.”

    I *wonder* if he/she/its parents have any money left after the parasite siphoned all his/her/its inheritance prior to this. Smart parents would have their remaining money placed in a trust so that the greedy unemployable sponge wouldn’t end up on the streets.

  140. #141 S
    February 17, 2013

    I’ll repeat “S”, why did you not view the third video? Did you feel “threatened” by it, or her?

    I viewed the third video. It was the first two along with your comments to others here that I consider as stigmatizing, as mentioned in the fourth video. Best wishes to you. I’m gonna follow MI Dawn’s suggestion @735.

  141. #142 Narad
    February 17, 2013

    I don’t need luck for I have great fortune.

    «Ἡράκλειτος ἔφη ὡς ἦθος ἀνθρώπῳ δαίμων.»

  142. #143 Off Meds
    New York
    February 17, 2013

    Oh, Young Lady, I personally have never taken any crotch shots, and please, please, do not post any of yours. I have no trust fund, but I do have a great, very true story, that according to many influential people, whom I will not name, is worth a fortune multiplied by infinity. Stay tuned…. And I don’t mean to your computer screen 😉

  143. #144 Denice Walter
    February 17, 2013

    Alright…. don’t tell me, let me guess-
    it’s a reality television show ….or a screenplay.

  144. #145 lilady
    February 17, 2013

    “A great many influential people, whom I will not name…..”

    No reality television show…or a screenplay, Denice. Just the delusional ramblings of an internet troll who is unemployable and who resides under a troll bridge. Sorta reminds me of Thingy.

  145. #146 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 17, 2013

    It actually reminds me more of DJT, but that’s just because it favors the same “carhorn debate” tactics. “I was obnoxious to you; that surely demonstrates that my side of the argument is more correct than yours!”

  146. #147 Khani
    February 17, 2013

    So just to torment the troll, let’s swing this bus back onto its course and talk about Lanza and related topics.

    Have we heard of any Aspergers folks being negatively affected by the lunatic fringe or the Lanza incident?

  147. #148 flip
    February 18, 2013

    Slightly off topic, but I saw this sign on the way home today:

    Alcohol doesn’t cause violence
    /other side of rotating sign/
    Blame and punish the individual

    It really threw me for a moment. On the one hand you have the responsibility of the individual to not get drunk and not be violent. On the other hand you have alcoholism. I was struck between thinking it was blaming the victim, and actually making a valid point.

    I know it doesn’t quite fit with the actual post’s topic, but it’s better than playing avoid-the-troll and this seems like the perfect place to discuss something that’s not quite fitting for current discussions elsewhere.

  148. #149 S
    February 18, 2013

    One psychologist is still attempting to link Lanza’s behavior to Lyme disease. Dr. Rick Sponaugle, the Florida doctor mentioned in this article, has been mentioned in the comments here before.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/11/did-adam-lanza-have-lyme-disease/

  149. #150 Off Meds
    New York
    February 18, 2013

  150. #151 Agashem
    February 18, 2013

    Oh great, OM has learned to post links. Let’s see how far this will deteriorate.

  151. #152 Renate
    February 18, 2013

    I’m not sure what a music video has to do with the subject.

  152. #153 Narad
    February 18, 2013

    Slightly off topic, but I saw this sign on the way home today:

    Alcohol doesn’t cause violence
    /other side of rotating sign/
    Blame and punish the individual

    The is inital point is perhaps arguable (e.g., if alcohol increases the likelihood of aggressive behavior in response to cues that would normally be perceived as aggressive, one could argue for causality), but I don’t get what the point of the sign is in the first place. Drunks are being persecuted?

  153. #154 LW
    February 18, 2013

    Maybe they’re saying that voluntary intoxication shouldn’t be a mitigating factor in criminal trials? Though I don’t think it is now, but juries might treat it as such.

  154. #155 S
    February 18, 2013

    Drunks are being persecuted?

    the sign is more likely about violent or abusive criminal behavior being faulted on the alcohol, rather than an individual’s choice to get drunk.

    People who have committed acts of violence, especially domestic violence, too often IMO have their charges dismissed, fines lessened, or are excused from jail time if they can successfully plead that alcohol or drugs were the cause of their behavior. They blame the alcohol for their violent assault, instead of taking responsibility for their own decision to become intoxicated.

  155. #156 S
    February 18, 2013

    @755 – Failed to close the italics.

    @flip – Was anything else written on the sign? Sometimes signs have the name of their sponsor shown in the bottom corner.

  156. #157 Narad
    February 18, 2013

    Maybe they’re saying that voluntary intoxication shouldn’t be a mitigating factor in criminal trials? Though I don’t think it is now, but juries might treat it as such.

    I suppose true incompetence might serve as an argument against mens rea (e.g., “I didn’t realize that this wasn’t my house and refrigerator and couch, sorry”), but this still just strikes me as perplexing. Violent crimes turn merely on the act itself.

  157. #158 S
    February 18, 2013


    Violent crimes turn merely on the act itself.

    That is in an ideal situation, and there may be laws that state that should be the case, but that is not what always happens in practice. Oftentimes and especially in the case of domestic violence, the perpetrator is given ‘consideration’ for the fact that they were under the influence when the assault occurred. Their sentence may even be lessened in some cases due to their successful defense in shifting the blame to the alcohol, especially if they promise not to drink again or go to counseling or rehab. In some cases it just creates a revolving door – get drunk, commit assault, blame the alcohol and promise to attend rehab and ‘play nice’. Shortly thereafter, the cycle repeats itself – get drunk, commit assault…

  158. #159 Narad
    February 18, 2013

    That is in an ideal situation, and there may be laws that state that should be the case, but that is not what always happens in practice.

    That is pretty straight common law, not an ideal situation. I’m not asserting that sentencing may not be mitigated (and certainly not that 12-step programs, “counseling,” etc., haven’t insinuated themselves into the courts), but voluntary intoxication worsens one’s defense in a criminal case, because it is basically an admission that one did not act as a reasonable person. And, of course, there’s the issue of plea bargains and the goals of family courts and so forth.

    But I’m still not getting this sign.

  159. #160 S
    February 18, 2013

    @Narad – Thanks for explaining more. Now that I better understand your point, I agree with you. It seems the signs are sponsored by the NightClub Owners Forum along with initiatives of the Australian Sex Party.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/nightclubs-slam-liquor-licence-rules-20110616-1g5x8.html

    http://nightclubownersforum.com/id9.html

  160. #161 Militant Agnostic
    A stones thow from a Narwhal tusk and as far from the Narwhal Song as possiible
    February 18, 2013

    @S #760

    The Australian Sex Party are libertarians – this would explain their desire to ensure that the nightclub owner’s are not held responsible for any externalities.

  161. #162 Khani
    February 18, 2013

    #748 It sounds like a thinly-veiled gun rights ad to me.

  162. #163 Narad
    February 18, 2013

    It seems the signs are sponsored by the NightClub Owners Forum along with initiatives of the Australian Sex Party.

    Oh, that explains a lot. In the U.S., it appears that 38 states have some sort of dram-shop act, which makes statutorily clear just who the relevant “individual” is for purposes of liability.

  163. #164 Politicalguineapig
    February 19, 2013

    Khani:
    The closest thing, oddly enough, was an AOA grandmum warrior who was complaining that the local school had suspended her autistic grandson because he was exhibiting stalkeresque behaviors toward a female schoolmate. The sad thing is, is that the admins would have totally ignored the same behavior in an NT kid. I’ll dig up the link tomorrow, have to call it a night soon.
    But other than that, nothing that’s been reported. Yet.

  164. #165 flip
    February 19, 2013

    @S

    Dammit, you got there before I did. Yeah, that’s the same ad I was talking about.

    To put it into more context: It was both near a large football stadium, and close to the city. Police in the city centre often deal with late-night violence (including a lot of deaths) on the weekends, which usually involves heavy drinking. Add to the fact that a lot of the pro footballers have issues with drinking/violence over the years (including lots of sexual harassment claims) and very rarely do they get punished in a way that most people would.

    Being more responsible about drinking – which is a fair point – is also being pushed by the police. Although not in the way this billboard does it.

    The Australian Sex Party are libertarians – this would explain their desire to ensure that the nightclub owner’s are not held responsible for any externalities.

    Actually the Sex Party are kind of whacky libertarian hippies. Or at least that’s the impression I have of them based on very little. I haven’t read much about them, but they’re for a range of rights, including gay marriage, women’s rights (ie. abortion), and things like that. They’re a fringe group, leftier than the Greens (which is pretty left) and probably right-ier than the right. That they’re also with the nightclub owners is not surprising to me, given that the Party seems to be made up of mostly young people.

    Personally, I find the whole ad distasteful. As business owners, they should be interested in doing more to prevent violence – it’s bad PR for a start – not washing their hands of the situation and suddenly deciding that their bartenders might need more training of when to cut off drinks. As with everything, it’s a little too complex to pin responsibility on one thing.

    @Narad

    Thanks for the link to that paper. I’ll have to scrounge up $20 to read it, but the abstract was interesting.

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.