Rats.

Everyone’s blogging about all the studies showing (as if it needed to be shown yet again) that vitamin supplementation is not necessary for most people, nor does it decrease the risk of heart disease or cancer, and I can’t, at least not yet. Why not? Because my friggin’ university doesn’t subscribe to the Annals of Internal Medicine! I know! Can you believe it? And, you, my regular readers, know that I never blog a study (or three studies) without having the actual studies in front of me. Abstracts alone, as I’ve shown time and time again, can be deceiving. So, until one of my partners in crime elsewhere sends me copies of the articles, I’m kind of stuck. [ADDENDUM: I got them overnight.]

Fortunately, even though I hate to be left out of this party, even if for a day or two, there’s always plenty more blogging material out there. It’s even appropriate, given how recently I wrote about the politics of the antivaccine movement, and how antivaccine quackery is the quackery that knows little in the way of political boundaries, with both sides being prone to antivaccine ideas. True, the right and the left seem to come to their antivaccine ideas from different directions. For example, lefty antivaccinationists tend to come to their views from crunchy beliefs in an idealized concept of what is “natural” and in “natural healing” combined with a major distrust of big business, in particular big pharma. In contrast, righty antivaccinationists tend to come to it through the idea of “health freedom,” in which anything resembling government coercion is to be resisted and any attempt to regulate medicine is viewed with suspicion. Besides, after experiencing such an awesome lovefest from my readers due to my belated mention of my ninth blogiversary, it’s time for some Insolence again that’s likely to tick off someone at least. Orac just can’t handle such universal niceness for long. This post is likely to fix that for some, while others will pump their fists and shout, “Hell, yes!” Which are you? Let’s find out.

It all started, as it not too infrequently does, when post over at that happy home for wanderingly daft antivaccinationists, the Age of Autism caught my eye a couple of days ago. (Yes, I know it’s a bad idea to expose my neurons to such neuron-apoptosing nonsense as the regular content of AoA, but it is at times a convenient source of blog material and my neurons are hardened from years of regular exposure.) It was by a contributor of whom I had never heard before named Adriana Gamondes, entitled Libertarian Backlash against Reason Magazine’s “Corporatist,” “Pseudolibertarian” Compulsory Vaccine Campaign. In particular, Mrs. Gamondes is touting an article published at a website of which I had never heard before, Police State USA. Actually, I must just not have remembered her, because she’s definitely contributed to AoA before on several occasions. Indeed, her “work,” such as it is, rivals the looniest of the crew at AoA for sheer brain death (of both the writer and the reader, alas). She fits right in, given that according to this post from 2009 she is “the mother of twins who are currently recovering from vaccine-induced GI disorders.”

What’s interesting is this passage from Gamondes:

Age of Autism is a politically agnostic forum but not apolitical. To quote Herman Melville, “There seems no reason why serviceable truth should keep cloistered because not partisan.” There are rare exceptions to unilateral mainstream news compliance with government demands that critical views of vaccines be censored. PSUSA has done an elegant job ignoring the memo and explaining why compulsory medicine cannot be legitimately argued from a liberty position.

Except that I would argue that AoA is not exactly politically agnostic. After all, several of its members are prominent in the Canary Party, an antivaccine organization that advocates against vaccines, to the point of buying off politicians and lobbying. Fortunately, it has not had a lot of success thus far, but it keeps trying. It also has forged ties with at least one Tea Party-affiliated group in California. Heck, Mike Adams even endorsed them. In other words, AoA tends to lean right, towards the Libertarian end of the spectrum, and Gamondes’ likes rhetoric that could have been written by Mikey himself.

But first, let’s take a look at what set Police State USA off. It’s an article from a couple of weeks ago by Ronald Bailey over at Reason Magazine entitled Refusing Vaccination Puts Others At Risk: A pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Now, believe it or not, I actually read Reason. I used to read it more regularly, but then my politics drifted away from that direction, to the point where reading that magazine would actually annoy me. However, this particular article by Bailey actually made sense. Basically, he claims that Libertarianism is not a justification for putting others at risk:

There would be no argument against allowing people to refuse vaccination if they and their families would suffer alone the consequences of their foolhardiness. It would be their right to forego misery-reducing and life-preserving treatments. But that is not the case in the real world.

Correct, and that’s what those of us who promote vaccination have been saying all along. Indeed, we’ve been pointing out that antivaccinationists endanger everyone because they promote the degradation of herd immunity. Bailey agrees, and he dutifully discusses the Project Tycho, which, as I pointed out, shows how well vaccines have worked over the last century. He also debunks some common antivaccine talking points, such as the highly intellectually dishonest trope that “vaccines didn’t save us,” while listing how much children owe to vaccines, including the newer ones that antivaccinationists like to dump on, such as the rotavirus vaccine and the chickenpox vaccine. Based on herd immunity, Bailey asserts (and I agree):

People who refuse vaccination for themselves and their children are free-riding off herd immunity. Anti-vaccination folks are taking advantage of the fact that most people around them have chosen the minimal risk of vaccination, thus acting as a firewall protecting them from disease. But if enough refuse, the firewall comes down and other people get hurt.

Oliver Wendell Holmes articulated a good libertarian principle when he said, “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.” Holmes’ observation is particularly salient in the case of whooping cough shots.

And:

To borrow Holmes’ metaphor, people who refuse vaccination are asserting that they have a right to “swing” their microbes at other people. There is no principled libertarian case for their free-riding refusal to take responsibility for their own microbes.

I’d agree that there’s no “principled Libertarian case,” but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a Libertarian case. It boils down to, basically, “Screw you. I don’t care if my decision affects others.” Come to think of it, a whole lot of Libertarianism boils down to this in actual practice, the highfalutin rhetoric of the more practical Libertarians like Bailey notwithstanding. Don’t believe me? Take a look at how Police State USA puts it. First, it equates the ability to refuse vaccinations with free markets and any sort of mandated vaccination as being anathema to a free market. This is very critical to understanding this sort of thinking. Libertarianism appears to worship the free market above all. Consequently, all a Libertarian like those at PSUSA has to do to justify anything is to try to link it to the free market somehow and link what it dislikes to crushing the free market. Why? Because to this brand of Libertarianism the free market is a Good That Shall Not Be Questioned. Ever. Under any circumstances.

The other Good That Shall Never Be Questioned is utter unfettered individual rights without consideration for others. Indeed, PSUSA complains about any form of collectivism, anything that is instituted for the greatest good for the greatest number of people, specifically objecting to the use of the term “herd immunity,” likening it to cattle. I’m only impressed that this anonymous writer refrained from using the word “sheeple.” That would have been the perfect topper to this little screed. As it is, I’ll have to amuse myself with passages like this:

The only thing more full of holes than Bailey’s doctrine is his ridiculous argument against people having “a right to swing their microbes at other people.” His implication is that the spread of germs is an initiation of force from one person against others, therefore justifying state intervention to mitigate that initiation of force. This cheapens the definition of force to an utterly ubiquitous level. A single person picks up and loses an incalculable number of microorganisms per day. This is done invisibly, without a person’s knowledge, whether he is healthy or sick, without malice, without intent, and without the ability to stop it (even if you try). No one can know how many billions of microorganisms were exchanged in a given day, nor who will be susceptible to them. No one can prove beyond reasonable doubt which person dropped which microorganism.

The stupid, it doth burn. Of course, we all carry microbes and exchange them with each other every day. However, there’s a difference between just microbes and microbes that cause serious diseases that can be vaccinated against. If you can prevent endangering others with microbes that you carry or prevent your children from endangering other children by taking a simple precaution that is incredibly safe for you and your child, then why wouldn’t that be an assault?

Of course, Reason readers tend to think along the same way that Police State USA thinks, namely, “Screw you! I don’t care if what I do hurts you.” Just take a look at the Facebook post for Bailey’s article. It’s peppered with comments like:

Explain how not getting a vaccination yourself puts someone else at risk. If you get sick and they are vaccinated then they won’t get sick because they a vaccinated against it right? Oh, vaccinations don’t actually protect against getting sick?!? Then why do we get them.

The stupid, it burns. And I do mean you, Parrish Miller, whoever you are.

And:

Herd Immunity is more Bullshit from Big Pharma with NO logic behind it!

And:

How about “I DON’T WANT TO!”? That’s about as libertarian as it gets. There is no such thing as a positive obligation in libertarian philosophy and that includes an obligation to be vaccinated.

Which is as good a reason as any as to why I shucked my Libertarian tendencies. (Well, that, and my increasing realization over the last 15 years that an “unfettered” free market is not a panacea.)

Sadly, Ronald Bailey is fighting a losing battle. On vaccines, he really appears not to be in tune with his fellow Libertarians, who are all too prone to denying science when it inconveniently clashes with their worship of the free market and individual freedom above all. As I’ve said time and time again, the entire “health freedom” movement (a.k.a. the freedom of quacks from having the government interfere with their plying their quackery), of which the antivaccine movement is but a part, is very much at home within the Libertarian movement. Indeed, one can say that it’s as pure an expression of Libertarianism as there is: Don’t regulate quackery, as the free market will take care of it all (you know, much the way it did so effectively before the creation of the FDA and other regulatory agencies, with wandering snake oil salesmen and pharmaceutical companies bringing drugs to market without testing them) and no one can tell me what I can and can’t put into my body (never mind whether it’s based on misinformation and false claims or not). Don’t require me to do anything that will benefit me and my fellow citizens, such as vaccinating. And, above all, don’t discuss the delicate balance between personal liberty and what benefits and harms society. If you do, you’ll get the kind of reaction that Ronald Bailey got. That’s the problem that Libertarians trying to take a reasonable position with respect to medicine run into that they don’t want to admit. Quackery and antivaccine views go together with Libertarianism like show trials and dictatorships. The more scientifically inclined Libertarians know that, and it bothers them. Unfortunately, they are very quickly reminded of it by their fellow Libertarians when they try to make a “principled Libertarian case” for vaccine mandates, as Ronald Bailey was.

Comments

  1. #1 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    Narad, did you just conflate approached and comprehended?

  2. #2 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    Narad, did you just conflate approached and comprehended?

    No, I think the mixture of perceiving-in-fact and capture of (in this case, purported) fugitive driven underground is pretty standard.

  3. #3 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    Fair enough — I might just have to nap until my (current, for me) 402 comes out of moderation. I mean, really, how much of a life does a box of blinking lights have?

  4. #4 Alain
    December 24, 2013

    Fair enough — I might just have to nap until my (current, for me) 402 comes out of moderation. I mean, really, how much of a life does a box of blinking lights have?

    Depend on the parts but assuming reliable SSD storage + 20°C running temperature and no overclocking, 20+ years at least.

    Alain

  5. #5 Alain
    December 24, 2013

    Do I see weasel words? Can we play a game? Find weasel worded post and gain at least 15 points per weasel posts. This is open to anyone 🙂

    Alain

  6. #6 Alain
    December 24, 2013

    I see a weasel post at post #389: the poster is unable to answer a straight question from me.

    15 points

    Alain

  7. #7 lilady
    December 24, 2013

    @ Stu: Did you forget to substitute a “v” for the “u” in certain words?

    I did the substitution, when I was quoting the Troll’s remarks @# 354 and I got stuck in moderation for an hour.

  8. #8 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    I think I got kicked to mod because I used “t*rd” — and not the u version, either. It was in a contraction, and to someone who deserved it, and I really love the word, but crap, I have to mind my invective.

    At least, that’s what I think did it. No links, no nuthin.

  9. #9 Helianthus
    December 24, 2013

    @ Delysid

    You lose.

    You said, re: Typhoid Mary:

    The anarcho-capitalist/libertarian way of handling those situations is banishment (as opposed to forced quarantine or forced medication). I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with this, as I would support a rudimentary court system to deal with people who harmed others (including infecting them with a disease).

    Right after saying, in a sarcastic/mocking tone:

    Why don’t we give a small group of the right to kidnap, prison, harass, steal, steal from, and kill people so that we are protected from people who kidnap, prison, harass, steal from and kill us?

    How do you have banishment or a rudimentary court system without giving a small group of people the “right to kidnap, prison”, etc.?
    Actually, how is banishment any different from forced quarantine, in terms of denial of freedom?

    Re: Anarchists and mass murders, ask Archduke Franz-Ferdinand of Austria about it. And the 9 millions of deaths which followed his.
    I will grant you you need organized nations to have war, genocide and other mass events. But it’s like saying a thousand people can do more damage than a single one. Sure, an anarchist community is less likely to engage in conflicts which result in nationwide wars, but historically small communities have had their share of horrors in the form of family feuds, hotted disputes over properties (fields, water access) and lynch mobs, regardless of the type of leadership. To some extent, it’s just a difference of scale.

    Actually, you know what? I’m all for private initiative and local decision-planning.
    It’s just that I don’t see how things could be done on the scale of a city or a nation without some sort of board of decision-makers coalescing into place.
    In short, I see you complaining about the same old arguments being thrown at you (roads, firefighters…), but I don’t see you refuting them.

    BTW, after your rape analogies upthread (just discovered them – my apologies myladies), you are not really in a good position to call other commenters creepy or complain if they don’t like you, so stick to your arguments, if you have any.

  10. #10 Chuff
    December 24, 2013

    I’m curious, who represents a libertarian America on the world stage? Or would it be impossible? Maybe America would withdraw from international politics completely. After all, you can’t have representation without some form of central coordination. Could you use internet poling? Everyone votes on everything via the net. Nope that wouldn’t work, you’d still run into the 51:49 conundrum. Voting doesn’t work in a pure libertarian society……errrrm……I mean geographically close but totally separate individuals. Probably easier not to bother.

    I can see it now, after a few years the rest of the world gets together, “Haven’t heard much from America lately, go on Mexico, you’re pretty close, knock on the door and see if they are ok”.

  11. #11 Chuff
    December 24, 2013

    I’m curious, who represents a libertarian America on the world stage? Or would it be impossible? Maybe America would withdraw from international politics completely. After all, you can’t have representation without some form of central coordination. Could you use internet poling? Everyone votes on everything via the net. Nope that wouldn’t work, you’d still run into the 51:49 conundrum. Voting doesn’t work in a pure libertarian society……errrrm……I mean geographically close but totally separate individuals. Probably easier not to bother.

    I can see it now, after a few years the rest of the world gets together, “Haven’t heard much from America lately, go on Mexico, you’re pretty close, knock on the door and see if they are ok”.

  12. #12 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    @Heliantus:

    I don’t think you understand. The innate libertarian position is “the market will take care of it, and if anyone messes up, the victims can sue, which will hurt them in the market, so problem solved.”

    The idiocy of this position is so multi-faceted it is always hard to know where to begin. This is, of course, by design.

    My initial reaction used to be to put in a DVD of Erin Brokovich, but it only seems to encourage them. Nowadays I just show the heart-breaking videos of people suddenly able to set their well water on fire and start asking questions.

  13. #13 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    Go ahead, keep it up, show everyone on RI your true colors.

    Perhaps some variety of state-dependent learning will allow you to figure out that these are all your words. If one may be allowed the luxury of another plainly genuine Camus quote,

    “Justice in a silent world, justice enslaved and mute, destroys mutual complicity and finally can no longer be justice. The revolution of the twentieth century has arbitrarily separated, for overambitious ends of conquest, two inseparable ideas. Absolute freedom mocks at justice. Absolute justice denies freedom. To be fruitful, the two ideas must find their limits in each other. No man considers that his condition is free if it is not at the same time just, nor just unless it is free. Freedom, precisely, cannot even be imagined without the power of saying clearly what is just and what is unjust, of claiming all existence in the name of a small part of existence which refuses to die. Finally there is a justice, though a very different kind of justice, in restoring freedom, which is the only imperishable value of history. Men are never really willing to die except for the sake of freedom: therefore they do not believe in dying completely.”

    It’s a funny thing about public words: One can, if proper, reject them as erroneous or inappropriate, but the relation of “ownership” is asymmetric. You received fair warning on multiple occasions, but I suppose these may have been geared for someone who purports to have integrated Mises’ absurd* attempts at Axiomatization Of The Perceived World into the very fiber of his being.

    But if it helps untwist your übermenschlich panties, I did have the courtesy at the outset to cross-check against an image search, which yielded nothing even vaguely related to that to which you previously averred indifference. In other words, you could have dismissed the whole thing rather than bumbling headlong into an instantiation of a very well known Hobbes remark.

    You state that you “would support a rudimentary court system to deal with people who harmed others,” yet you didn’t see fit to define “harm.” Or “rudimentary.” Well, meet the latter: Your words attached to a picture of a guy showing some jowl growth sticking his fingers in what the average person of a certain age would remind someone of a certain Goldfarb–Glass** novelty item. Oh, dear, oh, dear, suddenly you’re Louis XVI.

    * No, I don’t expect so.
    ** Marvin Glass’s contributions will be immediately recognized, I think, by a certain generation.

  14. #14 Helianthus
    December 24, 2013

    @ Stu

    The idiocy of this position is so multi-faceted it is always hard to know where to begin.

    Yeah, I feel like I’m looking for logic where there is none.

    @ Chuff

    Maybe America would withdraw from international politics completely.

    If memory serves, it was president Bush (junior) position before 9/11. Not a libertarian himself, but free market and isolationism are part of the shared political platform of republicans and libertarians. Along with the motto that less government is better government.
    On the latter, I was under the impression that Mr Bush increased the government, both in term of size and spending.
    On isolationism, I believe History showed that you can try to forget about the outside world, but that won’t stop the outside world from remembering you and come knocking.
    As we say in my country, facts are stubborn.

  15. #15 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    ^ “what might well remind the average person of a certain”

    Too many moving, rephrasing-in-situ parts, sorry.

  16. #16 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    I will grant you you need organized nations to have war, genocide and other mass events.

    Then again, organized nations of a certain scale are essentially the only actors who actually exist in D.’s “natural state” of “freedom.” Perhaps he could provide the correct settings for the dials that are required for libertopia to spring forth from Zeus’s head and peachy-keen up the operation.

  17. #17 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    Simply saying “Murder is wrong, duh,” isn’t really acceptable in philosophy, nor does it mean much without a definition.

    Proceeding on the unlikely basis that D. actually has some sort of handle on Camus’ ethics, extraction from the Aristotelian polis is impossible. He is, however, almost certainly forced to reject Camus at the end and therefore stuck with some form of “Nature”-driven virtue ethics.

  18. #18 Helianthus
    December 24, 2013

    @ Chuff / Narad

    in a pure libertarian society……errrrm……I mean geographically close but totally separate individuals

    Perhaps he could provide the correct settings for the dials that are required for libertopia to spring forth from Zeus’s head

    The only settings I can think of where full-freedom, no-gov ideology could work are either isolated farming compounds in the countryside (like the Australian bush described by Arthur Upfield) or close-knitted monoindustrial societies like a mining factory (again, isolated, like in the asteroid belt).
    Holywood description of Farwest settlers would count, although for some reason there always seem to be a rancher family or a railroad baron to deprive the locals of their freedom.

    Of course, come the the issues of industrial level, education and innovation. Wouldn’t it be cheating to establish a libertopia, but to depend on one of these nasty government-sponsored cities for building material, spare parts or brand new technologies?

  19. #19 Renate
    December 24, 2013

    Would Christiania fit Delasyd’s ideas of a true free society?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania
    I’m afraid it would be to collectivist for his taste.

    If he accuses us of repeating “government is good”, which is hardly what I read, since there is more than enough critising the government, even from progressives, like me, I think his arguments burn down to: “government is bad, absense of government is good.”

    I still wonder what would absense of government looks like. As soon as there is someone leading a group of people, one could consider it as some form of government.

  20. #20 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    @Heliantus:

    If memory serves, it was president Bush (junior) position before 9/11.

    What he wanted or thought (ahem) did not matter one whit. Half his top brass were PNAC signatories. Iraq was going to get hit no matter what. I giggled at Richard Dreyfuss’ clinically insane Cheney in W for a minute until I realized it actually was pretty damned true — the one bigger psychopath in power during the past decade than Cheney is his wife.

  21. #21 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    close-knitted monoindustrial societies like a mining factory (again, isolated, like in the asteroid belt)

    Bullpuckey. I’m re-reading Heart of the Comet at the moment, and the factionalism in there rings far too true.

  22. #22 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    December 24, 2013

    @Delysid

    Hmm, you seem to have missed my followup questions. Here they are again, regarding how to deal with a Typhoid Mary-type of situation:

    Who would do this banishing? What if some in the community support Mary’s right to employment within the community? Who would enforce Mary’s banishment to prevent her coming back in? And where would you banish Mary to? Into the wild? Into another community?

    Also, in terms of a rudimentary court, who would administer it? Who would grant authority to and enforce its rulings?

    I eagerly await your answers to these questions.

  23. #23 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    December 24, 2013

    The closest image I can come to a libertopian image is a pirate ship, but even that was not libertarian. That was more akin to a pure democracy and was fraught with problems (mutiny, murder, despotism, marooning, etc.), to say nothing of the problems they inflicted on everyone outside the ship.

  24. #24 Shay
    December 24, 2013

    For some reason last night I was thinking about divorce (yes, the spousal unit went skunk-hunting with my brother in law again) and it occurred to me that, in a state with no central courts, who enforces custody and child support issues?

    That’s a serious question btw. I’m guessing that the divorce itself could be handled by one of the small localized courts that are considered acceptable by Delysid, but if one or the other party refuses to be bound by that decision, who then has the authority to enforce it?

    L

  25. #25 lilady
    December 24, 2013

    @ Shay: Wow what a coincidence. Narad went skunk hunting as well and was quite successful.

  26. #26 gaist
    December 24, 2013

    Delysid, care to comment on a few scenarios in a libertarian society you would accept.

    1) I write a really cool novel. Being first time author I published it as a inexpensive ebook, and it seems to be selling quite well, and is well on it’s way to becoming hugely popular. A guy who owns a book printing facility buys a copy of my book and starts printing it by the thousands. When I contact him he says when he bought the book he owns it, and he can copy and resell stuff he owns. He makes a ton of money selling my book, and when I contact him again just threatens me with better lawyers than I could ever afford.

    In your society of choice, does he actually own the right to print and sell my book without my consent? Is there a venue I could use to complain about his actions? What actions could that venue take to enforce it’s eventual decision?

    2) My neighbor decides it is a good idea to start breeding chicken in the back yard. I object to the noise, the stench and the unhygienic conditions right next to the place my kids play. What can I do if my neighbor chooses to ignore my complaints.

    3) Who would have control, launching capacities and the maintenance responsibilities of the nuclear warheads currently owned by the US government?

    4) Thirty years from now, the Socialist Dictatorship of Canada decides it needs more lebenstraum and mounts a surprise military campaign in order to “annex” the northern states from the newly formed United Libertatian States of America. What would happen?

    (and I did misspell my name last time (gast), sorry for involuntary “sockpuppetry”)

  27. #27 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    gaist: The short answer is usually that you can sue. Get plagiarized? Sue. Get poisoned by a quack? Sue. Private firefighters let your house burn down? Sue.

    Most of the time it won’t help you, but the idea is that doing it will take the offender off the market, keeping it shiny and perfect.

  28. #28 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 24, 2013

    gaist: The short answer is usually that you can sue. Get plagiarized? Sue. Get poisoned by a quack? Sue. Private firefighters let your house burn down? Sue.

    Sure, in some versions of Libertopia. But Delysid says his perfect world would be no government. If there is no government, there can’t be a court system, unless the courts are you and four or five of your closest friends bringing Justice to those who offend you.

  29. #29 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    You’d be amazed how most libertarians define “no government”. Usually it is some variation of “no government except the parts I like”.

  30. #30 Lawrence
    December 24, 2013

    @Stu – which is what Delsyid has been saying all along, whether he knows it or not.

  31. #31 lilady
    December 24, 2013

    It was pointed out to the Troll, months ago, that his OSU Dental School tuition is paid with loans backed by the Federal government.

    That must be one of the parts of government he likes.

  32. #32 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    That must be one of the parts of government he likes.

    No, he whined about it while claiming that HIPAA requirements are changing by the minute, or something, incongruously in the context of billing Medicaid. That’s why he’d prefer to drop out and just beome an apprentice dentist somewhere.

  33. #33 lilady
    Wondering about the rib roast
    December 24, 2013

    I’m going on to more important topics now.

    I just received an E-mail from Elburto, who is sending warm holiday greetings to you all. Her Android is fixed now and she is recovering from her health issues. It’s going to be a great New Year, when Elburto rejoins our happy little group.

    I’ve got a whacky recipe for cooking the 6 lb. boneless rib roast for Xmas dinner. The recipe directs the chef to fire up the stove to 500 degrees F. and put the roast on a rack in a roasting pan to roast for 1/2 hour, then shut the oven off. It stays in the oven (no peekies!) for 2 hours and should rest for 20 minutes for done-to-perfection rare.

    I’ll let you know how successful the whacky recipe is; I’ll never live it down if I mess it up.

  34. #34 Stu
    December 24, 2013

    @lilady: Amazingly, I’ve talked to people who are against government subsidy or oversight of education of all kinds. Usually, this opinion forms a few years after they do their 12 years of primary education and 4 years of college in government-funded institutions. 100% FYIGM, but when called on it there even seem to be attempts at justification of such glaring hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance — usually a combination of how they are different than those other freeloaders now in school, that the school system is failing — now — and oh my god what a jerk you are for bringing it up in the first place, but that’s par for the course for us NWO UN OWG tax-loving freeloaders. I mean, redistribution is unfair in general principle, think about it. The argument thus one, they climb in their car (which their parents pay for); preferably with an insightful and/or witty collection of stickers such as “The War In Iraq Keeps American Families Safe” or “One Million People Went To Obama’s Inauguration — Only 14 Had To Take Off Work”.

    (Yes, those exist. I saw both of them on a single pickup truck last week.)

  35. #35 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    I just received an E-mail from Elburto, who is sending warm holiday greetings to you all. Her Android is fixed now and she is recovering from her health issues.

    Good to hear.

    I’ve got a whacky recipe for cooking the 6 lb. boneless rib roast for Xmas dinner. The recipe directs the chef to fire up the stove to 500 degrees F. and put the roast on a rack in a roasting pan to roast for 1/2 hour, then shut the oven off. It stays in the oven (no peekies!) for 2 hours and should rest for 20 minutes for done-to-perfection rare.

    That’s not too oddball, although it’s the sort of thing where a temperature probe would come in handy because of oven-to-oven variability. The Art of Cooking, for a 7.5 lb, seven-rib roast, goes for 30 minutes at 425F, 1 hour at 375 (for an internal temperature of about 75F), and an hour with the oven off, which is a bit more forgiving.

  36. #36 dedicated lurker
    December 24, 2013

    Franklin Pierce is the best president is something I’ve literally never heard before.

    Delysid reminds me of the group I put in one of my books who believed that everyone had the right to do whatever they wanted all the time. To them, your right to swing your fist didn’t end. If the person you punched then killed your whole family and burned down your house, well, they have the right to do that too.

  37. #37 Shay
    December 24, 2013

    Lilady, thanks for the update from elburto, I was starting to worry about her.

  38. #38 Mewens
    December 24, 2013

    lilady, forward my anonymous and I-promise-it’s-not-creepy Internet love to elburto. (That’s the best kind of love, isn’t it?) She’s been missed.

  39. #39 Scottynuke
    December 24, 2013

    Add my best wishes to the cloud of goodwill headed elburto’s way. 🙂

  40. #40 TBruce
    December 24, 2013

    Thirty years from now, the Socialist Dictatorship of Canada decides it needs more lebenstraum and mounts a surprise military campaign in order to “annex” the northern states from the newly formed United Libertatian States of America. What would happen?

    That would freakin’ rock!
    (Disclosure of Potential Conflict of Interest: I’m Canadian)

  41. #41 Lawrence
    December 24, 2013

    @TBruce – I’d buy the novel, that’s for sure.

  42. #42 lilady
    December 24, 2013

    I am so not into the Troll’s devolving into a drug-addled Libertarian crank…starting ~ comment # 50 here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/26/in-which-antivaccinationist-ginger-taylor-is-taught-a-lesson-and-not-by-orac

    How sad is it, that Orac and the RI Regulars praised the Troll for taking on Ginger Taylor and her pseudoscience about vaccines…for him to to throw away that goodwill?

    So, here’s the deal with the rib roast. It is boneless, purchased at Costco early yesterday. I did a wee bit of trimming and trussed that sucker with butcher’s cord and it is air-drying in the refrigerator on a V rack (to sorta replicate the air drying for “Prime” grade beef cuts). I’ve been air-drying my thick T-bone and loin steaks during the past year for the barbecue and they are divinely juicy, rare and tender.

    http://www.cooks.com/recipe/930t306j/rapid-roast.html

    I’ll let you know how my whacky recipe works out. 🙂

  43. #43 Mrs Woo
    Where animals talking create quite a din...
    December 24, 2013

    Can’t wait to hear lilady. Tomorrow someone else is cooking. We did a turkey on Sunday. Sadly, with two teenaged boys and then a third snacking on it, there is less than two pounds of a twenty-two pound turkey left (when I saw J carrying 2/3 of one breast on a plate I almost fell over). Today is apparently the 2nd annual dump a dog near the Woo house day, and a Rottweiler mix has invaded our backyard. Attempting to find owners and/or rehome across social media.

    Never ending festivities in the land of Woo!

    Happy Holidays and best wishes to all.

  44. #44 Johanna
    December 24, 2013

    Thanks for the Elburto update!

  45. #45 Shay
    December 24, 2013

    TBruce @443 — why the hell not, we already all have hockey teams.

  46. #46 lilady
    Where's Chris...for that Lutefisk recipe ???
    December 24, 2013

    @ Mrs Woo: Would “J” happen to be Mr. Woo? (You just cannot trust the men in your life, when it comes to a roast turkey)…or the Bumpis’ dogs:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPRdj1Ce4ao

    I’ll be tuned into the 24-hour-loop of A Christmas Story.

  47. #47 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    So, here’s the deal with the rib roast.

    It’s unclear to me what rubbing a 6 lb. roast with a clove of garlic is supposed to accomplish (or what the instruction actually means in the first place). I certainly wouldn’t put minced garlic in a 500-degree oven for half an hour.

    Jacque’s Rib Roast Claire has 2 T oregano, 1 T each thyme and paprika, 2 tsp black pepper, 1/16 tsp cayenne, and 1/2 tsp salt. I used this to good effect on a mamesh-prime rib roast from Fox & Obel before it collapsed.

  48. #48 Mrs Woo
    December 24, 2013

    @lilady – no, “J” is my 15-year-old. Of course, it would get confusing if I used first initials for friends, because they are J’s, too, or at least the ones here the past few days.

    Sadly I am worried that this place is turning into the Bumpis’ – the extra dog here today makes it three, and it is obviously a house dog, so we’re uncomfortable making it stay overnight outside. He’s a young, athletic male, which doesn’t make his antics any easier to put up with. He is middle size between the terrier mix we rescued after it was dumped last year and my Great Pyrenees mix.

  49. #49 Mrs Woo
    December 24, 2013

    I do my best to always refer to the Mr as Mr Woo. 😉

  50. #50 jre
    December 24, 2013

    Oh, jeez. People are using mixed upper- and lower-case, and clearly no one cares about lutefisk anymore. I have no idea what this thread is coming to. So I’ll just toss in John and Belle’s irrefutable justification for why Libertarianism is the one true answer for anything: EVERYONE GETS A PONY!
    http://examinedlife.typepad.com/johnbelle/2004/03/if_wishes_were_.html

  51. #51 Mrs Woo
    Woo-ville, Missouri
    December 24, 2013

    But I already have an Arabian gelding. And a saddle.

  52. #52 lilady
    December 24, 2013

    @ Narad: Absolutely, positively….no garlic. A wee bit of olive oil perhaps and Kosher salt with cracked pepper (Tuscan style).

    I’m missing the in-laws’ Christmas eve feast:

    http://www.ediblemanhattan.com/z/topics/history/the-feast-of-the-seven-fishes/

  53. #53 Militant Agnostic
    December 24, 2013

    From JRE’s link

    In general, if thoughts of the Eastern Congo intrude, I suggest waving them away with the invisible hand and repeating “that’s anarcho-capitalism” several times.

    And here I thought the invisible hand was only good for matching supply and demand.

  54. #54 Narad
    December 24, 2013

    I would have thought that everyone knew about the proper attitude toward ponies among those of a libertarian bent who can, you know, think.

    P.S. “Let’s be independent together!” Yes, Robert May connected dentistry and Camus’ sociopolitical philosophy nearly 40 years ago.

  55. #55 Chris,
    December 24, 2013

    lilady: “Where’s Chris…for that Lutefisk recipe ???”

    Sorry, the one time I tried it turned to glue. Though I have been told by a store that sells it that all I have to do is poach it. The lye has been removed already.

    We are also having a boneless rib roast. I also plan to do a quick cook starting at high temp. But we will be cutting it down to three to four pounds since only four of us will be partaking in the beef. It will have a spice rub, and accompanied with a spicy cherry sauce.

  56. #56 dedicated lurker
    December 24, 2013

    Chris, I must eat at your house some day. You always seem to be cooking something delicious.

  57. #57 Chris,
    December 25, 2013

    Thank you.

    You can blame my father, he was always trying something new and different. I could use chop sticks by the time I was six years old, which is about the time we were telling my little sister the hearts of artichokes were only good if you were older.

    😉

  58. #58 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    which is about the time we were telling my little sister the hearts of artichokes were only good if you were older.

    Gotta find them first.

  59. #59 Renate
    December 25, 2013

    Glad to hear something about Elburto.

  60. #60 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    December 25, 2013

    Adding my thanks to lilady for the update on Elburto. Oh, and merry Christmas, Channukah tovah, happy holidays and a happy new year to everyone.

  61. #61 herr doktor bimler
    December 25, 2013

    I look forward to Elburto’s return and her contributions to my lexicon of profanity and abuse.

  62. #62 Scottynuke
    December 25, 2013

    @ hdb

    I thought you came here for an argument…

    Happy Holidays, all! 🙂

  63. #63 Krebiozen
    December 25, 2013

    Many years ago, when I first started reading about radical politics and economics I was very confused by references to ‘the invisible hand’. For some reason I thought it referred to the biblical story* about the hand that wrote on the wall at King Belshazzar’s banquet, when he made the mistake of using the Holy dinner service he stole from the Temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 5); it’s where the phrase “The Writing on the Wall” comes from. Looking it up, I see it wasn’t an invisible hand, but a disembodied one, which is really creepy now I think about it.

    I still can’t help associating the invisible hand of the free market with a warning against messing with JHVH’s cutlery, which is one way of making economics more interesting.

    Anyway, I hope you all enjoy happy festivities of whichever ilk tickles whatever parts you prefer – trolls, antivaxxers and libertarians too. Do try to get through the ordeal without assaulting any of your relatives.

    * No I’m not a religious fanatic, we had an old cartoon version of the bible when I was a child, which I loved – such gruesome tales! I read it cover to cover.

  64. #64 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    Franklin Pierce single handidly (by vetoing the Bill for the Benefit of the Indigent Insane) stopped the creation of a Federal Welfare State and socialized medicine for nearly 60 years.

    His defense of the decision is one of the most epic explanations of the proper role of government under the Constition that has ever been written. Compared to the immature chatter here (ie “libertarians want you to die in the streets blah blah blah) it is comical.

    Let’s see Oprah recommend this transcrpt to her sophisticated readers.

    http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/misc/1854-pvm.htm

  65. #65 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    @Krebizoen

    Speaking of radical politics, there is nothing more extremist than Marxism/Stalinism/Leninism/Maoism/SOCIALISM. The New York Times publishes some of the most radical, extremist propaganda in the history of mankind daily. Our society is so far off the deep end and so conditioned to blindly submitting to arbitrary tyranny that extremism is the status quo.

    Look at your people’s paradie of the United Kingdom. Now pornography is censored. for an entire country DOES THAT SOUND LIKE NORMAL POLITICS?

  66. #66 Alain
    December 25, 2013

    His defense of the decision is one of the most epic explanations of the proper role of government under the Constition that has ever been written.

    Citation please?

    Alain

  67. #67 Renate
    December 25, 2013

    And what has the situation in the UK to do with socialism? As far as I know the UK government is the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. No socialists in sight.
    But we know, government is bad, no government is good. Repeat at nauseam.
    I don’t think anyone here is saying all governments are good, or above any critisism.

  68. #68 Shay
    December 25, 2013

    #468 – University of Hyperbole, grad. with hons.

  69. #69 Krebiozen
    December 25, 2013

    Delysid,

    Our society is so far off the deep end and so conditioned to blindly submitting to arbitrary tyranny that extremism is the status quo.

    You sound just like me when I was 15 years old, full of p!ss and wind. I don’t think you would know “arbitrary tyranny” if it bit you on the backside.

    Look at your people’s paradie of the United Kingdom. Now pornography is censored. for an entire country DOES THAT SOUND LIKE NORMAL POLITICS?

    I have no intention of defending the current government of the UK. However, you may have been misled about pornography being “censored for an entire country”, though pornography laws here have always been stricter here than in other countries, it isn’t something I’m particularly concerned about.

    The only internet pornography that is censored here is “extreme”; that means pornography that includes acts of extreme violence, children and animals, as Cameron put it, “the vile images of abuse that pollute minds and cause crime”. I don’t have a problem having access to that kind of material restricted, any more than I object to those acts being illegal in the first place. Do you?

    You may be referring to the voluntary filtering systems that our ISPs now are obliged to include, enabling families to restrict access to pornography, which I also have little problem with. I’m concerned about the effect that easy access to pornography is having on children. I wonder what effect this is going to have on our societies in the long-term.

    How would your hypothetical libertarian society deal with child pornography and other extreme material? What about the sort of material that is used to recruit terrorists?
    These are the difficult areas where civil rights and abuse of our personal freedoms collide. There are no easy answers, and certainly none that will please everyone.

  70. #70 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    @Kreb

    “voluntary filtering systems”

    Voluntary. Right. You are free to do what we tell you. You are free to do what we tell you. You are free to do what we tell you.

    Guess what,Kreb, at 15 I sounded just like you. “I feel so good about paying my taxes knowing they go to help people.” Those were my exact words to my Dad (and yes I was working at that age). What a joke.

  71. #71 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    “No socialists in sight in the UK”

    LMFAO. How far of a left-wing extremist does one have to be to not see any socialists in the UK?

    Those freedom-loving conservative Brits. If only they were more liberal, imma right?

  72. #72 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    I just saw this comment ranting against libertarians on reddit. This is RI-grade material if I have ever seen it. I think he actually quoted some people in this thread.

    “When you fall down your flight of stairs that aren’t built to code, and die waiting for your private ambulance that doesn’t think you can pay your bill, you’ll probably have a different opinion. Oh, what’s that? You say you’ve got money? Why didn’t you say so! (Suffering and death, after all, are for poor people.) You paid extra for good stairs? Ok, well, you can carry on to your meal cooked with inspected meat… oops, your world doesn’t have meat inspectors. Now you have Salmonella and need a private ambulance. Oh, what’s that? You can afford your private ambulance? Ok, well, you can be safely conveyed to a hospital… oh wait, your world doesn’t have those. Because they’re staffed with people educated with public money. Oh, what’s that? You can afford private health care staffed with people educated in a private school where they independently derived all of the historical achievements of publicly funded science on their own. Ok, well, you can be safely conveyed there on the perfectly safe road… oh wait, your world doesn’t have those. Because they’re planned, analyzed, and interconnected by public employees. Oh, what’s that? You’ll pay extra for the air-ambulance to your private hospital. Ok, well, you can be safely guided there by aviation control… oh wait, your world doesn’t have that either. Or weather monitoring, or GPS, or anything the government has ever been involved in. Well, it’s starting to sound like you’d better seal yourself in a bubble filled with money and stocked with private air and water. Oh wait, money is a government construct… your world doesn’t have that either. Your philosophy is laughable. Your point of view is despicable. Your selfishness is obvious. Grow up.”

  73. #73 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Speaking of radical politics, there is nothing more extremist than Marxism/Stalinism/Leninism/Maoism/SOCIALISM. The New York Times publishes some of the most radical, extremist propaganda in the history of mankind daily.

    Thanks, J. Edgar.

  74. #74 Denice Walter
    December 25, 2013

    ,,,,,,,I was also worried about the Great White Queen of Northumberland- I’m so glad that she’s alright- her comments would be enlightening on this thread……,

    Since I peruse health freedom/ anti-governmental material on a daily basis ( esp PRN, NN), I am afraid to report that there’s nothing new here: “too many regulations/ laws, high taxes, ‘unnecessary’ expenses, the nanny state, lack of freedom, police state” et al.

    One solution these sites suggest is to move away from the cities and suburbs into rural areas and become self-sufficient and ‘self-sustaining’ – far from the madding crowd and the ever-tightening control of central authoritarian jackbooted dictatorship. Much of their programming involves frightening their advocates about how awful the future will be as the situation progresses from bad to worse.

    Now how feasible is going back to nature/ the simple life/ more freedom for most people?
    It’s easier if you don’t need a job and are healthy with no children or elderly in your care. Self-employment and tons of solitary hobbies are also useful.

    Right now I am concerned about a relative who moved out to the middle of nowhere and got sick. He has money because he sold his moderate sized business and is married. But he lives far away from medical treatment and the social network he used to enjoy-
    thus treatment means a daily, long drive or hospital stays where his spouse has to travel back and forth 30 miles or so; services are not the same far from the cities. He did well for a while and recovered but a very recent relapse has seriously weighed both him and his wife down: they’re having a hard time and their money cannot fix what’s wrong- the isolation is harmful to them. Even the bonds of deeply entrenched socialism break down in the wilderness.

    Freedom, self-sufficiency and anarchy work out very well on paper.

  75. #75 Dangerous Bacon
    December 25, 2013

    “Speaking of radical politics, there is nothing more extremist than Marxism/Stalinism/Leninism/Maoism/SOCIALISM. The New York Times publishes some of the most radical, extremist propaganda in the history of mankind daily.

    “Our society is so far off the deep end”

    I prescribe irony deficiency supplements for you too, Delysid.*

    *no mandatory shot yet, but it’s coming. Eeek!

  76. #76 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    @Denice

    What gave you the idea that anarchy means a solitary existence? You are basically repeating the “isolationist” myth.

    Cooperation is an essential aspect of the market. It is the best way to accomplish goals. This brings us back to the I, Pencil example. Here a guy attempts to make a toaster from scratch (it’s impossible to make something great by yourself).

    Libertarianism is VOLUNTARYISM. It means voluntary relationships. You are accusing libertarians of wanting no relationships. Some libertarians are interested in self-sufficiency and do-it-yourself lifestyle, but they are just a segment ,like the pro-recreational drug use group or the health freedom group.

    We can’t have a real honest debate if people keep projecting their own false beliefs onto the ideology.

  77. #77 Lawrence
    December 25, 2013

    @Delsyid – right back at you…my irony meter just exploded with that last post.

  78. #78 Krebiozen
    December 25, 2013

    Voluntary. Right. You are free to do what we tell you.

    No, voluntary as in you are free to not do what we tell you, since you can turn the filter on or off as you wish. Is an internet filter you can turn on to control what your children access such a bad thing? Is that really what you call tyranny?

    Guess what,Kreb, at 15 I sounded just like you.

    You must have been a strange 15-year-old. I did have a job at that age, but I spent most of my money on alcohol, punk rock and books. Since then I’ve gained a bit of life experience; I had to deal with life-changing illnesses and deaths in my loved ones, got married a few times, had some children, traveled the world, suffered a chronic illness and lost my job, among other things. Somewhere along the line I found I had changed my opinions.

    I found it’s difficult dealing with real life problems and coming up with practical workable solutions, but oh-so-easy to rage and criticize. What happened to you? What changed your opinions?

  79. #79 Chuff
    December 25, 2013

    Hmmm, I was under the impression that Americans were the prudes. Or is that just the advertising on tv over there? Anyway, I’d like to reassure Delysid that we Brits can access plenty of pornography if we so desire. It’s so nice that he cares enough to keep tabs on us. Shame his info is inaccurate.

    Reminds me of an old political cartoon, character visits America or an American army base and the guard asks him if he’s ever been a member of any leftist, pinko scum organization such as any British political party.

  80. #80 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Franklin Pierce single handidly (by vetoing the Bill for the Benefit of the Indigent Insane) stopped the creation of a Federal Welfare State and socialized medicine for nearly 60 years.

    Right, by vetoing a land sale, which you can’t even reproduce the title of properly, Fainting Frank, who supported the expansion of slavery, bears fundamental responsibility for threatening to take Cuba by force if Spain wouldn’t sell, had his first annual address described as “the weakest, most inane and unsatisfactory document, that ever emanated from the head of the nation,” couldn’t govern effectively, and basically tanked his own party in the process of laying the groundwork of the Civil War, becomes in your mind “our best president.” Gotcha.

    His defense of the decision is one of the most epic explanations of the proper role of government under the Constition that has ever been written.

    Oh, c’mon, there’s always this bit of his Consitutional insight: “I believe that involuntary servitude, as it exists in different States of this Confederacy, is recognized by the Constitution.”
    This is nothing but a long-winded, flowery slippery-slope argument, which I suppose is why you consider it to be “one of the most epic” such items “ever written”: you can’t understand anything more complicated.

    At least, to his credit, Pierce was similarly too dim-witted to realize that federal land grants were going to be necessary to construct a transcontinental railroad. Too bad he didn’t have the opportunity to “stop the creation” of that for 60 years.

    Compared to the immature chatter here (ie “libertarians want you to die in the streets blah blah blah) it is comical.

    As opposed to your contributions and interminable subject-changing? Note that you didn’t say anything intelligent about Pierce’s words, you declared them to be “most epic,” brah. You also didn’t compare them, and have not given any sign of being able to, with anything else, just a vague “ever written.” Fantastic, Narcissus.

  81. #81 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    LMFAO.

    Voluntary. Right. You are free to do what we tell you. You are free to do what we tell you. You are free to do what we tell you.

    I just saw this comment ranting against libertarians on reddit.

    Yes, when presented with actual responses to your remark, your rhetorical skills rise to textspeak, empty evasions, and copypasta from the cesspool of Reddit. Color me suitably impressed.

  82. #82 Julian Frost
    December 25, 2013

    @Lawrence: yeah, mine too. Delysid doesn’t realise that we have safety nets for a reason.

  83. #83 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Libertarianism is VOLUNTARYISM.

    With “banishment,” of course.

    We can’t have a real honest debate if people keep projecting their own false beliefs onto the ideology.

    No, “we” can’t have “a real honest debate” with someone whose first words have mysteriously become “DELETED AT DELYSID’S REQUEST” with no statement in the meantime despite numerous other comments and who demonstrates no actual interest in or understanding of the concept, the subject of which really isn’t “swaying people about libertarianism [or] pissing them off as a consolation” in the first place.

  84. #84 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    @Julian Frost

    Safety nets exist to trap the poor in poverty (whether intentional or not).

    One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.

    For example: What do you think happens to food prices when millions of people are on food stamps? The answer: price inflation of food.

  85. #85 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Allow me to expound a bit further. You have two possible observations that are on point: (1) “That’s not representative of professed libertarians.” This is weak, as the post was about the affinity, not the concept. (2) “I reject unethical medical practices, such as … mandatory vaccination.“* This is also weak, as there are no such mandates outside of voluntary relationships unless you want to argue against participation in the funding of public schools, which isn’t really what the antivax crowd is on about.

    * In which D. also expresses John Stone–level admiration for Tomljenović and doesn’t seem to have bothered to understand the response in the BMJ.

  86. #86 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Hmmm, I was under the impression that Americans were the prudes.

    That’s the Союз Kанадский Социалистических Республик, which actually impounded copies of High Times at the border in 1977. One might suggest that this is protectionist, perhaps explaining why, say, Hustler has an independent Canada operation.

  87. #87 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    For example: What do you think happens to food prices when millions of people are on food stamps? The answer: price inflation of food.

    That’s got to be the dumbest G-ddamned thing I’ve heard in ages. The source of the money doesn’t affect the price of food. You want to live on $133.08 (FY 2013, average individual; $274.99 per household) per month for food? That restricts the flow of currency into the market.

    And you are squealing like a stuck pig over “libertarians want you to die in the streets blah blah blah”? You have just advanced the argument that the failure to allow poor people to experience more hunger is making your groceries significantly more expensive.

  88. #88 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    @Krebiozen:

    Is an internet filter you can turn on to control what your children access such a bad thing?

    This hearkens to the controversy over the “V-chip.” As a strong civil libertarian, I would say that a government mandate is indeed overreach. There’s no obvious reason that ISPs who offer raw data pipes (my strong preference) as added value should be excluded.

  89. #89 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    One more:

    Safety nets exist to trap the poor in poverty (whether intentional or not).

    Leaving aside the grammatical one, do you understand the logical failure in this utterance? It appropriately rhymes with “speleology.”

  90. #90 Delysid
    December 25, 2013

    @Narad

    No, I don’t understand whatever insane point you are trying to make. Please expand on how safety nets help the poor.

    If the Welfare State is successful then why are over a hundred million Americans on welfare? Isn’t the point of welfare to GET PEOPLE OFF OF IT? The Welfare State works so great that it expands infinitely!

  91. #91 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    December 25, 2013

    Go ahead, keep it up, show everyone on RI your true colors. Narad, creepy psychopath.

    Sure, in your wet dreams numpty.

    My rib roast and Yorkshire pudding were perfection. Do not sear your meat in the beginning; that’s for poultry. Alton Brown has the best method in my opinion by dry-aging, slow roast at 200F (internal temp 118F) then sear at the end. Of course there is a prep with an oil, salt and pepper massage.

  92. #92 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    December 25, 2013

    @Delysid

    Still not answering my followup questions? I guess you just missed them again. Here they are so you don’t have to go through the onerous task of searching for them. What are your answers to these questions, following up on the Typhoid Mary stuff:

    Who would do this banishing? What if some in the community support Mary’s right to employment within the community? Who would enforce Mary’s banishment to prevent her coming back in? And where would you banish Mary to? Into the wild? Into another community?

    Also, in terms of a rudimentary court, who would administer it? Who would grant authority to and enforce its rulings?

  93. #93 Shay
    wishing for a preview function, too.
    December 25, 2013

    I’m waiting on the answer to my divorce/child custody question, as well, Todd.

    (I’m not holding my breath, either).

    Science Mom, we had the traditional Midwestern turkey and fixin’s and I find that things run more smoothly if I let the spousal unit prepare everything but the cranberry sauce. He doesn’t write a five paragraph frag order. for it but I’ll admit he starts with a detailed list (“H-180 … sweet potatoes into slow cooker”).

    It’s kind of fun to watch.

  94. #94 Militant Agnostic
    December 25, 2013

    If the Welfare State is successful then why are over a hundred million Americans on welfare?

    Citation definitely needed.

    Delysid how would a libertarian society with an absence of regulation result in anything remotely resembling optimal recovery from a retrograde condensate reservoir?

  95. #95 Denice Walter
    December 25, 2013

    Approximately 1 in 3 Americans are on welfare?
    Source, please.

  96. #96 Alain
    December 25, 2013

    Seriously, if your welfare is similar to ours, there’s no way the average american can live on it. How much is the living allowance provided on welfare (here, 600$/month).

    Alain

  97. #97 Alain
    December 25, 2013
  98. #98 Narad
    December 25, 2013
    Leaving aside the grammatical one, do you understand the logical failure in this utterance? It appropriately rhymes with “speleology.”

    No, I don’t understand whatever insane point you are trying to make.

    That’s because you’re linguistically challenged. The magic word is “teleology.” The problem with “Safety nets exist to trap the poor in poverty (whether intentional [sic] or not)” is that it ascribes purpose rather than effect. You further failed to address the substantive point, which is that the effect of SNAP on food prices, to the extent one it exists at all, is likely to be deflationary, unless your “point” is that the poor aren’t hungry enough at $33 a week.

    Please expand on how safety nets help the poor.

    That wasn’t the semantic payload of your incompetent utterance, now was it? But if you insist on having your overt sadism held up for wonder, I’d suggest not having to choose between food and medical care. Hey, you’re really proud of how you’re going to “give back to society,” right? Maybe this will penetrate the necrotic layer of your frontal cortex.

    If the Welfare State is successful then why are over a hundred million Americans on welfare?

    If you mean “why are 47 million Americans receiving food stamps,” the answer is because of what you advocate, Quiz Kid, which is the absence of a meaningful minimum wage.

    Isn’t the point of welfare to GET PEOPLE OFF OF IT? The Welfare State works so great that it expands infinitely!

    PRWORA has already happened, but perhaps you missed it while laboring on the junior tennis circuit. It didn’t quite pan out as promised. Some people, moreover, are actually disabled rather than merely being severely disadvantaged. The only thing “expand[ing] infinitely!” is the holes in the safety net, with the churlish rejection of PPACA Medicaid expansion at no cost to the individual states that hasn’t already been funded by like-minded asshοles only moving around the deck chairs.

    So here’s where you get to have something nailed into your fυcking pea-brain: I happen to have a very close friend who is most genuinely disabled. He’s too proud, or afraid of the stigma that worthless shıts such as yourself are happy to advance, that he won’t apply for SNAP. You know what happens as a result? Hospitalization.

    Do you happen to know how long it takes for Medicare to kick in if one suffers sudden, complete, total blindness? C’mon, guess.

  99. #99 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    Seriously, if your welfare is similar to ours, there’s no way the average american can live on it. How much is the living allowance provided on welfare (here, 600$/month).

    Alain, there is almost no cash assistance to be had in the U.S. outside of total disability and TANF (“Temporary Assistance for Needy Families”). Payments under Social Security are partially based on what one has already paid into the system. The floor for SSI, which isn’t means-tested, at present, is $710 per month. SSDI can kick in some more. Lilady is really the one with the expertise on the system.

  100. #100 Narad
    December 25, 2013

    I should clarify that my friend does not suffer from blindness; this is simply an example that came to my attention a while ago.

  101. #101 gaist
    December 26, 2013

    Delysid, let’s attempt a honest debate (with no personal prejudices projected onto any ideology, libertatian or otherwise).

    I’ll ask a couple of questions to get the ball rolling…
    These are in no particular order….

    Where applicable, let’s assume a libertatian society you would accept.

    1) You say Free Market is us, all of us, and that it is a natural state of man… What makes you think governments (from local city councils up to federal governments) also aren’t naturally emergent states of being us, being together? I don’t mean any particular law or statute or ideology, but I personally believe that some sort of system of governance comes naturally once the number of people coexisting exceeds some limit.

    (To quote/paraphrase a known socialist Bertolt Brecht, the smallest unit in a society isn’t a person, it’s two persons).

    2) What safeguards there would be (if any) to prevent whole towns owned and operated by large companies from forming? For example Refineryville, built next to large domestic oil fields, with schools, hospitals, restaurants and movie theatres (as well as courts, police and banking) provided by the company for the “convenience” of the work force.
    And if allowed to operate, what safeguards (if any) would there be to prevent company misconduct in such a situation?

    3) If insurance companies were not regulated, and there were no limits on what they could claim while advertising, how many hours would you be willing to spend selecting an insurance provider for yourself? And same for schools, banks, hospitals, restaurants et cetera? If you got a food poisoning at a restaurant and lost your job because you were absent at a crucial junction, could you sue the restaurant for restitution for both future earnings as well as the pay for the few days you were home sick as well as any medication? At whose expense would the lab tests to confirm food be made? If it turned out not to be that particular restaurant (to without reasonable doubt at least), could the restaurant sue you for damages to reputation?

    4) What organization would you accept to defend against foreign military threats? In libertatian society based on voluntaryism and free market principles of liberty, do you believe there would be “market” for a trained reserve army as a deterrent (or just in case)? Or could there be enough private mercenary groups that big businesses could combine their own to add up to a force of suitable size (and organization to oppose a current, state-cordinated military force)? Or would it be the responsibility of private individuals to defend their chosen homesteads and/or free market liberties with privately owned firearms and anti-armour weaponry?

    5) Who would own and maintain current US army/navy/airforce weapons and facilities? When the transit into libertatian society was complete, would the government still exist as a military command unit, or would the weapons and facilities be sold to the highest bidder or distributed among the private militia stockpiles throughout the nation? Who would have the responsibilities of maintaining, renewing and disposing the armaments, and of keeping the troops trained?

    6) What if lets say governments of OPEC and uranium-mining nations decided to stop selling to such a rogue nation in the hope of suppressing such dangerous libertatian sentiments from threating their reign of power? What recourse would (eg.) Libertatian States of America have to to secure their current level or electricity? Negotiate worse deals with outside nations, invent, finance and build a whole infrastructure to tap into uranium veins and oil deposits within national borders? Or would they use military treat or force to secure supply of oil and uranium? Or let the market determine the new price of electricity so that the population can either choose to pay more for current level of convenience or to downgrade to bare essentials (or beyond in few cases)?

    Thank you for your time, I’m looking forward to your answers.

  102. #102 Renate
    December 26, 2013

    @Delysid
    I didn’t say there aren’t socialists in the UK, just not in the government. They are in parlement. I don’t live in the UK, but as far as I know the parties are:
    Conservatives – they are conservative
    Lib-Dem’s – they are liberal, not socialist. Liberals are mostly for a small government
    Labour – this is the socialist party, though a ver watered down version.

    I live in the Netherlands, where we have a lot of parties.
    The government is a combination of liberals and socialists, which start to get les socialist everyday.

    And I live on welfare. Not because I don’t want a job, but I can’t get one, partly thanks to discrimination. But well, that’s a free society, isn’t it?

  103. #103 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    December 26, 2013

    I’ve read Delysid’s comments @487 and beyond.
    Delysid, you don’t have a case. You have made claims that could politely be called questionable (food stamps lead to inflation? 1 in 3 USA’ians are on welfare?) and haven’t provided evidence in support of them.
    “Libertarianism is voluntary association. It is everywhere, all the time. Anytime you make any purchase or agree to any contract you are engaging in libertarianism.”
    Leaving aside the question of whether or not this is libertarianism and not something else, some associations are not voluntary. I need clean air, food and water to live, so I have to go to the shops for groceries and pay the water company.
    Now, let’s suppose that a local business starts polluting the atmosphere to such an extent that everyone’s health starts to suffer. Also, let’s suppose that most of the locals don’t have the money to move out. What are they supposed to do? Or let’s suppose the water company decides to cut costs by not doing enough to make the water potable. Let’s also suppose that boiling the water doesn’t solve the problem. What then?
    Sometimes people are dishonest and greedy, and will be in a position to gouge others. We have laws and enforcement agencies for a reason. Furthermore, our actions have consequences, and often those consequences are both unintended and harmful. “Tragedy of the commons” is a real thing, despite Delysid’s attempts to pretend it doesn’t.

  104. #104 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    Chuff,

    Hmmm, I was under the impression that Americans were the prudes.

    It’s weirdly inconsistent. For example, in the UK even a child can buy a newspaper with photographs of topless women in it*, and a holiday show broadcast on free-to-air TV at peak time in the evening will happily show female breasts on a topless beach. The only time I have seen pixelated female breasts on TV was in a show in the US about European vacations, something that astonished me at the time.

    Conversely, you can buy hard core pornography in a regular DVD store in most (maybe all?) states of the US, but not at all in the UK (I believe that’s still the case, correct me if I’m wrong). There are other weird anomalies, like the rules about not using profanities on UK radio, yet I have heard the worst of swear words on UK TV, and from shock jocks on US radio.

    * Not in every newspaper, as my favorite poet explains.

  105. #105 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    Narad,

    As a strong civil libertarian, I would say that a government mandate is indeed overreach.

    I’m in two minds. I distrust censorship on principle, but on the other hand one might hope that parents would take responsibility for controlling what their children are doing on line, but many clearly don’t.

  106. #106 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    I’m wondering how libertarians would prevent people from voluntarily forming a democratic government.

  107. #107 gaist
    December 26, 2013

    Krebiozen,

    Obviously it can’t be real liberty if you are not free to suppress someone else’s liberties.

  108. #108 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 26, 2013

    Ketchikan,

    Not to argue with your main point, but:
    – I’ve shopped in DVD in 4 US (as I remember) states and cannot recall seeing hard core pornography available for sale in any of them. I have been in stores that do sell what I would consider hard core pornography; they tend to be specialty stores in the areas I’ve shopped. It used to be that not all states allowed such stores and where I live they used to be quite controversial.
    – I’ve not heard any profanity that I can recall on British radio in my relatively limited exposure; what I’ve heard on British TV includes many words that would result in a fine for the station if they were on US radio, shock jock or not.

  109. #109 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 26, 2013

    Krebiozen – and sorry for spell check’s mangling of your ‘nym.

  110. #110 Denice Walter
    December 26, 2013

    Although I really shouldn’t start this…BUT

    I do seem to recall ( or have read somewhere perhaps**) that less regulated markets may lead to odd situations like
    WHAT HAPPENED in 2008…
    In fact, curiously weren’t many of the instruments of control*** of the markets, as well as regulations, first and foremost, REACTIONS to fiscal crises, booms-and-busts, which occured in the un-regulated markets of the 19th century, as well as later reactions to a lessening of regulations more recently, and the havoc they wrought upon society worldwide?

    Buying ‘on margin’ in the 1920s or using the markets as gaming tables in the 2000s lead to increased regulations in order to avoid catastrophic events like those of 1929 or 2008-9.

    I know, I know some say that the best fix ( 2008) would be to “let the markets take care of themselves” and that the “government has no business” in the markets. Not all of us agree with that.

    As my history of science prof used to remark, ” Learn about the past so you don’t have to go though all of that again”.

    ** Heh.
    *** some might say ‘torture’

  111. #111 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    M.O.’B.,

    I’ve shopped in DVD in 4 US (as I remember) states and cannot recall seeing hard core pornography available for sale in any of them.

    It seems I was misinformed, though as you say my main point remains intact. It also depends on what you define as hard core, though I don’t really want to get into too much indelicate detail here. I believe that despite the internet, sale of movies that are not certified by the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) remains illegal, and even the movies the BBFC gives an R18 certificate are mild compared to the sort of thing you can find all too easily on line. Some mainstream(ish) movies have been cut here before the BBFC would certify them, the sequel to the Human Centipede for example.

    Weirdly I have seen things on free-to-air UK TV that I doubt would get a BBFC certificate, especially on ‘educational’ programs. On one occasion on call in the path lab in the early hours of the morning, grabbing a coffee with the TV on in the tea room, I was embarrassed by an explicit depiction of an, er, Mapplethorpesque act appearing just as the young woman on call for hematology walked in. Thanks Channel 4. Thankfully she just laughed.

    – I’ve not heard any profanity that I can recall on British radio in my relatively limited exposure;

    Me neither, the rules are very strict, for reasons I fail to understand. Yet on the stage you can get away with pretty much anything that doesn’t ‘outrage public decency’.

    what I’ve heard on British TV includes many words that would result in a fine for the station if they were on US radio, shock jock or not.

    Really? I was under the impression that the likes of Howard Stern could get away with practically anything.

    The whole area is, as I wrote, weirdly inconsistent.

    The spellchecker mangling of my ‘nym has a ring to it, I might use it as an alternative sometimes. My wife tells me she went to school with a young man from Ketchikan – for some reason Alaska keeps popping up in my life lately – it must be one of those synchronicities [Exits, singing ‘There’s no place like Nome’].

  112. #112 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    I was under the impression that the likes of Howard Stern could get away with practically anything.

    I was wrong.

  113. #113 Shay
    At home enjoying the day off awarded me by a benevolent government (county, not Federal)
    December 26, 2013

    @Krebiozen — at the very least it’s a great first line for a limerick.

    There once was a lady from Ketchikan

    (leaving the rest to the imagination).

  114. #114 Krebiozen
    December 26, 2013

    There once was a lady from Ketchikan,
    Who encountered a rude libertarian.
    At first she would admire,
    His p!ss, wind and fire,
    Then saw he was nowt but a contrarian.

  115. #115 Narad
    December 26, 2013

    On one occasion on call in the path lab in the early hours of the morning, grabbing a coffee with the TV on in the tea room, I was embarrassed by an explicit depiction of an, er, Mapplethorpesque act appearing just as the young woman on call for hematology walked in.

    One night, long ago, I happened upon, airing on the local Polish UHF station, inexplicably, something that (I later realized) was visually straight out of the Jess Franco canon, including a breast being chomped in close-up during a sex scene. I don’t think it was Emanuelle and the Last Cannibals, but definitely from the perpetually recut Eurosleaze horror family.

  116. #116 Chemmomo
    Just another slow day in paradise(?)
    December 26, 2013

    Krebiozen @ 517

    Bravo!

  117. #117 Narad
    December 26, 2013

    I’m wondering how libertarians would prevent people from voluntarily forming a democratic government.

    This is effectively the same question as how a cluster of 100 Freedonian property holders manages to erect a wall to effect “banishment” of the diseased if one person objects because, oh, say, he firmly believes in “natural immunity.”

    Does the wall have to be elaborately constructed through the town? Who’s on the hook for the construction expense and extra sentries? Surely, this fellow can’t be “banished,” “imma right?”

    In other news, the Harrison Land Act had the federal government selling and giving away property since 1800, making Pierce’s argument immediately collapse. Is the federal government now responsible for ensuring that everyone is entitled to the benefit of having a private parcel of land? “Epic explanation,” indeed.

  118. #118 Narad
    December 26, 2013

    In retrospect, perhaps the holdout should be considered to be subject to the same rules as would govern if Nature herself changed the circumstances of his locale. Your well dried up? Tough cheese. Now, where, precisely does the line between force majure and glibertarian asshurt lie? Is it in human agency? Why? Where do you think all these people came from if not from Nature?

  119. #119 Narad
    December 26, 2013

    Moreover, if the answer is evasively that one cannot seek redress from Nature, then the core principle can be nothing other than “freedom” derives from money or the ability to extract the equivalent (say, in the form of forced servitude) rather than any fanciful “state of Nature.”

  120. #120 Narad
    December 26, 2013

    ^^ “majeure”

  121. #121 MI Dawn
    December 26, 2013

    Late to the party, but I spent Xmas with my daughters and was too tired last night to catch up on RI.

    @lilady: hope the roast was good. My mom always does them that way and they do come out rare, but I personally like my meat hotter in temperature, too.

    Having never seen nor tasted lutefisk or any other items of that sort (durian for example) I refrain from commenting on that.

    I have no desire to live in a libertarian dreamworld. I have little or no faith in the idea. There are too many IGMFY people out there and a free market doesn’t work.

    I’m also highly amused that Brave Sir Robin appears to have run away…

  122. #122 Scottynuke
    December 26, 2013

    @ Krebiozen #517

    *faxing one shiny new internets* Bravo! 🙂

  123. #123 lilady
    December 26, 2013

    Krebiozen: Brilliant!

    @ MI Dawn: At the last minute I decided to roast the beef following my traditional recipe…for all the reasons you stated…and the unavailability of the oven to cook the other dishes on my holiday menu.

    In my group, if you overdo the roast or the steaks, they never let you forget your misstep. They are ruthless 🙂

  124. #124 Denice Walter
    December 26, 2013

    Well, what do you know, an un-dirty limmerick. But good.

    At any rate, we seem to have lost our opponent.
    The Intellectual Lynch Mob (TM) strikes again!

    And wasn’t it Emily-Peg-Greg who christened us as such?

  125. #125 Denice Walter
    December 26, 2013

    @ lilady:

    I don’t really cook but I like to put a turkey breast or chicken in an oven @ 600 degrees F.
    It’s a tandoor for white folk.

  126. #126 lilady
    December 26, 2013

    Sounds good to me, Denice.

  127. #127 Mrs Woo
    December 26, 2013

    @lilady – years ago I bought one of those counter top roasters. Mr Woo was hosting Christmas here the first time, I wasn’t very sick yet, and he promised two kinds of turkey, barbecue brisket and all the trimmings. Just not enough room in one oven for that. We also bought a tabletop warmer to put all the veggies, etc., in, and used crock pots for gravy and mashed potatoes to keep them warm.

    Was very happy how well it worked (and how easy it was to clean up). Not sure if you have one. I always thought of them as the purview of little old ladies at church potlucks until I got one.

    I hope that all the regulars at RI celebrated (if they so chose) a special holiday this year. I know mine had some very memorable moments, and I count myself blessed.

    Hope your guests were very pleased, lilady.

    Best wishes,
    Mrs Woo

    A bit off topic –

    Sadly, Mr Woo was on the internet again. He has abandoned pushing supplements at me! No, now he has decided I suffer from “intergenerational curse,” and just need to be “released.”

  128. #128 Militant Agnostic
    December 26, 2013

    @DW

    At any rate, we seem to have lost our opponent.

    Or he’s out trying to score some more hallucinogens. Actually, I think our opponent appears to have lost it once again with his “100 million Americans on welfare”, a number that is apparently increasing not exponentially, but “infinitely”.

  129. #129 AdamG
    December 26, 2013

    Delysid should move to Galt’s Gulch! I’m sure they’ll need a dentist.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2013/12/libertarian-enclaves?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/bitcoinparadise

  130. #130 jre
    December 27, 2013

    Money quote:

    Mr Johnson admits he never finished “Atlas Shrugged”. “I’m not actually much of a reader,” he says.

  131. #131 Militant Agnostic
    December 27, 2013

    @AdamG

    The article did mention something about “dentists and chiropractors” plying their trade in some sort of “innovation center”. The founder of that Randian Utopia is an altie grifter – he sells water ionizers. Delysid would be right at home.

  132. #132 p
    canada
    December 29, 2013

    i have several iibertarians in my fb feed (shane killian being the most high profile/informed) and not one of them has posted any anti vax nonsense; it’s all been left-leaning folks who cried when obama got elected.

  133. #133 A Mom Who Can Think For Herself
    December 30, 2013

    A bit off topic..but wanted to share with Orac

    Seems the Autism is Medical crowd is back at it again

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=670163996337399&id=249856855034784&__user=100004499137265

    I guess they didnt learn one thing with the Alex tragedy

    Mito is the new “cerebral folate deficiency”

  134. #134 A Mom Who Can Think For Herself
    December 30, 2013

    As I understand it, Mitochondrial Disorder can only be diagnosed by a muscle biopsy, correct? Now Mito is the newest buzz word. I find it insulting towards families who have loved ones suffering from this disease. When will it end?!

  135. #135 lilady
    December 30, 2013

    @ A Mom Who Can Think For Herself:

    I heard about this case weeks ago and have been following it on the internet. I’m not certain if the young woman actually has an ASD diagnosis, but she was under the care of a mitochondrial specialist M.D., located in Boston and was (I believe), referred to another hospital in the Boston area, for care. Physicians at that hospital diagnosed her with a somatoform disorder (a psychological disorder where patients report symptoms that cannot be confirmed by physical findings or laboratory confirmatory testing). Those doctors also stated that she does not have a mitochondrial disorder.

    http://foxct.com/local-news/investigations/stories/hospital-holds-west-hartford-girl-for-9-months/

    As I understand mitochondrial disorders, there are a series of blood, urine, spinal fluid and genetics tests and some may require a fresh muscle biopsy for confirmation, which is only done in a limited number of hospital which have the laboratory technology and specialists available to do that muscle biopsy properly:

    http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/mitochondrial_disease/hic_myths_and_facts_about_mitochondrial_diseases.aspx

    Yeah, “mito disorders !!!” is the new buzz phrase among the crank anti-vaccine crowd…ever since Hannah Poling was awarded damages for encephalopathy (not autism) associated with high fevers following vaccinations.

    One of the AoA regulars posted a comment at me, weeks ago, on a science blog that her grandchild’s claim for vaccine damages (resulting in an ASD) was amended, once the Autism Omnibus cases failed to award claims for vaccine-induced-autism, to a claim for a mitochondrial disorder…aggravated by vaccines. She claimed that the family couldn’t afford to pay for the child’s muscle biopsy…for the claim to go forward in Vaccine Court. She “recovered” one grandchild and her other grandchild “is in recovery”, thanks to biomedical treatments.

  136. #136 Narad
    December 30, 2013

    Or he’s out trying to score some more hallucinogens.

    Given his age, I’d be quite surprised if “Delysid” had any significant experience with the real item. The Pickard bust was 13 years ago (ergocristine was scheduled in 2010). In fact, I’d be surprised if he could tell it from some random concoction being passed off as LSD, just as happened with MDMA. All signs are that domestic production is in the tank.

    I don’t know about the availability of the 2C’s, but I doubt they’re widespread. Impressively, there was an STP (DOM) seizure at a Canadian maximum security prison a few weeks ago. Given that mushroom growing has been simplified to levels that don’t require the wits to culture in a Petri dish, they should always be within reach.

    I would enjoy watching him trying to choke down some San Pedro cactus sludge, though.

  137. #137 Narad
    December 30, 2013

    Oh, and: “You’re a dentist hairdresser, not a shaman.”

  138. #138 Delysid
    December 30, 2013

    @Narad

    Your hubris is unbelievable. Is there any topic on Earth in which you don’t believe yourself to be an expert on? I’m sure you learned quite about drugs while sitting on your computer. LMFAO

    I have taken countless doses of LSD over the last few years along with an assortment of other tryptamines and phenethylamines. I know more about psychedelic drugs than you will ever know, scientifically and from first hand experience.

    None of this is a secret, which is I’m divulging it on this forum despite you creepily posting my identity, but for your information, high quality LSD (fluff and lightening) is still easily available. (well maybe not to neckbeard socially awkward computer science professors in Canada).

    25I-NBOMe and 25C-NBOMe are often sold in place of LSD, but they are every bit as psychedelic (if not more so). LSD glows blue under a UV light and the 2C family does not if one wanted to do a quick field test for blotters that have already been dosed out. The same goes for vials of liquid LSD, but if one has entered that realm than he is no longer dealing with amateurs.

    When you know people and have a large network of psychonaut friends outside of RI, the main problem with psychedelics is not finding a pure product, but having enough time to indulge in them.

    You would like to see me drink San Pedro sludge would you? HAHAHAHAHA Mescaline is tip of the iceberg, you fool.

    I have interacted with multiple sets of beings in different dimensions while vaporizing DMT and and 5-meo-DMT. The machine elves were as realistic as the reality of sobriety. Combining DMT with MAOI alkaloids from Syrian Rue seeds is an experience that can’t be explained by any existing words. With your arrogant grandiloquent habits you probably fancy yourself an expert, and I laugh at the thought.

    I’m sure reading this makes lilady, an LN clinical- epidemiologist (LOL a pretend scientist) want to pass out like a prostitute who just overdosed.

    On high doses of 2C-B and other phenetylamines I have lost track about which molecules form my body and which ones form the surrounding environment.

    Go ahead, Narad, teach everyone here about drugs. Compared to the rest of Orac’s gang who couldn’t shoot straight, you actually might be an expert.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOL

  139. #139 Orac
    December 31, 2013

    I have taken countless doses of LSD over the last few years along with an assortment of other tryptamines and phenethylamines. I know more about psychedelic drugs than you will ever know, scientifically and from first hand experience.

    TMI, although this admission would appear to explain much about you.

  140. #140 Lawrence
    December 31, 2013

    @Orac – wow, yes, now I have a much better understanding of what kind of nutjob he truly is…..

  141. #141 Helianthus
    December 31, 2013

    For some reason. I am driven to quote Jellyfish, from Mike Resnick & David Gerrold.

    Dillon K. Filk also had a serious substance abuse problem, but that was okay too. He was a product of his time […]. Filk’s own chemical adventures were based on what was available and what it would mix well with—marijuana, amyl and butyl nitrates (also known as poppers), ecstasy, peyote, mushrooms, the occasional toad, dried banana skins, cocaine (both powdered and crystallized), heroin (snorted and injected), Quaaludes, Vicodin, horse tranquilizers, PCP, angel dust, cough syrup, amphetamines, methedrine, ephedrine, mescaline, methadone, barbiturates, Prozac, valium, lithium, and the occasional barium enema. And once in a while, airplane glue. But Filk had never taken acid—LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide)—because he didn’t want to risk destabilizing his brain chemistry.

  142. #142 AdamG
    December 31, 2013

    Now I see! Only with countless doses of true LSD William understand the truth about Franklin Pierce.

  143. #143 Narad
    December 31, 2013

    The same goes for vials of liquid LSD, but if one has entered that realm than he is no longer dealing with amateurs.

    Kid, I’ve given away a “vial” (actually a squeeze bottle from a package of McCormick food coloring, which seemed to be quite common back in the day) that was excess to my needs.

  144. #144 passionlessDrone
    December 31, 2013

    The same goes for vials of liquid LSD, but if one has entered that realm than he is no longer dealing with amateurs.

    Ah, the good old days!

    When you know people and have a large network of psychonaut friends outside of RI, the main problem with psychedelics is not finding a pure product, but having enough time to indulge in them.

    Again, a true statement.

  145. #145 Denice Walter
    December 31, 2013

    Our visitor has no idea about what sort of people gravitate within Orac’s sphere:
    such as medical and other professionals of various ages ,
    some of whom were around in the 1970s and 1980s( perhaps even before)- prior to his existence- who have experimented with many substances; a few have even studied the effects as part of their work ( in the lab and in the field).
    The world seems new when you’re 22. It isn’t.

  146. #146 Narad
    December 31, 2013

    None of this is a secret, which is I’m divulging it on this forum despite you creepily posting my identity

    I didn’t “post your identity,” I stated that I was willing to if you persisted with remarks such as you directed at PGP and lilady. In fact, it was you who was so stupid as to acknowledge that the distinctly not-too-bright looking meme character was none other than yourself.

    but for your information, high quality LSD (fluff and lightening) is still easily available. (well maybe not to neckbeard socially awkward computer science professors in Canada).

    If you think “White Fluff” is “easily available,” you’re being shined on by your dealer. It seems quite obvious that you’re nowhere near the level of the food chain where you’re seeing the crystal in any event, given that you think liquid is some sort of realm not occupied by “amateurs.”

    25I-NBOMe and 25C-NBOMe are often sold in place of LSD, but they are every bit as psychedelic (if not more so). LSD glows blue under a UV light and the 2C family does not if one wanted to do a quick field test for blotters that have already been dosed out.

    This is something of a non sequitur, given that 2C’s aren’t delivered on blotter. Now, quick, tell me what the excitation wavelengths of LSD are and the kit that you’re toting around for the “quick field test.” Tell me what else fluoresces in the UV. (Hint: It’s white, and people make marks on it.) Tell me why this “quick field test” is going to run into trouble with colored paper. Finally, tell me why both excitations are necessary.

    When you know people and have a large network of psychonaut friends outside of RI, the main problem with psychedelics is not finding a pure product, but having enough time to indulge in them.

    It is precisely this sort of language that strongly suggests that you’re talking out of your ass.

    You would like to see me drink San Pedro sludge would you? HAHAHAHAHA Mescaline is tip of the iceberg, you fool.

    You plainly don’t understand what this metaphor means.

    I have interacted with multiple sets of beings in different dimensions while vaporizing DMT and and 5-meo-DMT. The machine elves were as realistic as the reality of sobriety. Combining DMT with MAOI alkaloids from Syrian Rue seeds is an experience that can’t be explained by any existing words.

    No, it’s an indication that you have poor language skills.

    With your arrogant grandiloquent habits you probably fancy yourself an expert, and I laugh at the thought.

    Oh, I’m quite good at identifying people who have derived nothing whatever from psychedelics, as you’ve just amply confirmed for me. If you think McKenna’s elves are noteworthy, your fundamentally tamasic approach is quite plain.

    On high doses of 2C-B and other phenetylamines [sic] I have lost track about which molecules form my body and which ones form the surrounding environment.

    That’s an odd generalization, given the characteristic diversity of the 2C series. I can see where you’d be a 2C-B fan, though, as it’s not known for provoking much in the way of insight on its own.

  147. #147 Narad
    December 31, 2013

    Oh, and…

    I have taken countless doses of LSD over the last few years….

    You must not be able to count very well, either. You have about 120 opportunities per year.

  148. #148 lilady
    December 31, 2013

    Confession time? The Troll cannot even remember the first time that we pegged him as a delusional acid freak, months ago.

  149. #149 Delysid
    December 31, 2013

    @Narad

    No we are done. I am not playing “Narad the computer dictator” with you. I could care less what you think about me and I have nothing to justify to you. You are horribly awkward online and I laugh thinking about your social skills in person. In fact I don’t trust you at all and you seem like a rat.

    Oh yeah and by the way, the biggest obstacle for the psychedelic experience is the government that you all love and support so viciously.

  150. #150 Lawrence
    December 31, 2013

    Hmmm…interesting, because the only viciousness I’ve seen here is coming from the delusional, acid-idled troll.

  151. #151 Delysid
    December 31, 2013

    @Lawrence

    LOL Recognizing one’s own hypocrisy is something liberals are incapable of.

  152. #152 Krebiozen
    December 31, 2013

    You are horribly awkward online and I laugh thinking about your social skills in person. In fact I don’t trust you at all and you seem like a rat.

    That’s funny, because I’m quite sure that is a fair description of the impression the great majority of people following this thread have formed of you. Perhaps you are projecting.

    Not so long ago I used to think the world would be a better place if more people had some experience with psychedelics. Running into people like you who don’t seem to have benefited at all is a major factor of many that have disillusioned me. You seem to have completely missed, avoided or been left unmoved what I have found to be the most important components of the psychedelic experience.

    You have certainly convinced a lot of people here that psychedelics turn people into rude, selfish @ssholes with the social skills of a cane toad. Well done.

  153. #153 Mewens
    December 31, 2013

    Breathtaking, as ever.

    Still, I miss the Milton Friedman YouTube links; can we get one of him pontificating on the pleasures of psychedelics? Preferably while he’s partaking.

  154. #154 Lawrence
    December 31, 2013

    @Delsyid – of course….you lost the ability to self-reflect during one of your acid-trips, I’m sure.

  155. #155 Julian Frost
    December 31, 2013

    LOL Recognizing one’s own hypocrisy is something liberals are incapable of.

    Delysid said that. This is possibly the most metahypocritical thing I have ever read.

  156. #156 Delysid
    December 31, 2013

    @Krebizion

    I’m I supposed to trip on acid and transform into a socialist whackjob? “I had a profound realization that the government is the answer to all of our problems!”

    I discovered libertarianism after tripping on acid. “Why is this illegal?” I wondered. Then I went down the rabbit hole and discovered the endless list of failure and tyranny committed by the State.

    Which drugs have you done that gives you such a predilection for socialism?

  157. #157 Delysid
    December 31, 2013

    @Lawrence

    The adults are talking about psychedelics. Please pipe down until you learn how to contribute more than childish liberal insults that are the equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?”

    Whatever drugs you are doing Lawrence that contribute to your mindset and worldview I want no part of.

    I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I

  158. #158 Lawrence
    December 31, 2013

    Delsyid has never gotten over the idea that there are more colors in this conversation than just black and white (ironic, given his predilection for trippin’ the light fantastic)…..as for the vast majority of his comments, well, they continue to speak for themselves.

  159. #159 Delysid
    December 31, 2013

    @Lawrence

    It’s hard to see the colors in this conversation when it feels like I’m talking to a robot on 12 different usernames. Several of you have the same liberal venom tainting the comments (lilady, Chris, Pig, etc), making them practically indistinguishable.

    Apparently my comments are not speaking for themselves as most of your (plural) are directed towards myself and a variety of red herrings instead of my actual arguments.

  160. #160 Krebiozen
    December 31, 2013

    I’m I supposed to trip on acid and transform into a socialist whackjob? “I had a profound realization that the government is the answer to all of our problems!”

    Not at all, but the most consistent effects of high dose psychedelics I remember, and observed in others, included a profound sense of being interconnected to all living (and non-living) things, which led to feelings of sympathy and empathy. I’ve seen big mean hairy bikers crying about the suffering of mankind on acid. Psychedelics also offer us an insight into how we all construct the reality we experience, through our beliefs and prejudices, and make dogmatic certainty a lot less easy, or so it seems to me.

    Perhaps those things depend on some kind of insight in the first place, but I see no hint of any milk of human kindness in anything you have written, nor any intelligent insights, witty observations, recognition of ambiguity, or anything other than regurgitation of (often inappropriate) quotations, and venting of spleen really. I have seen a few others use a lot of psychedelics and end up in a similar state, coming to believe the universe is a huge unfeeling machine – the Trance of Sorrow instead of the Trance of Joy I suppose. I gave up on an old friend of mine 25 years ago when he seemed to be on a downward, destructive, nihilistic LSD booze spiral that I couldn’t yank him out of, and I was in danger of becoming his collateral damage. I was recently astonished, and delighted, to find he is still alive; married with kids, amazingly.

    I discovered libertarianism after tripping on acid. “Why is this illegal?” I wondered. Then I went down the rabbit hole and discovered the endless list of failure and tyranny committed by the State.

    I can understand that, though I want a better State, with more oversight and less capacity for corruption. I think that is a worthwhile and realistic goal, while throwing the entire concept of government out is just dumb. Even you admit that, since you have described yourself as a minarchist. We all want as little government as possible, and as much as necessary don’t we? We’re just disagreeing about where the lines are drawn

    Which drugs have you done that gives you such a predilection for socialism?

    I did a lot of psychedelics in my youth, everything you have described and more (though mostly ‘shrooms) and occasionally until about ten years ago when it suddenly seemed rather pointless.. In retrospect I think I learned a lot more about life taking time out of my career to do a degree in social anthropology and spending some time in Morocco, Egypt and India than I did from drugs.

    The ‘insights’ gained from psychedelics seem compellingly important at the time, but they quickly fade, and don’t seem to have long-lasting effects, again it seems to me.

    Meeting apparent entities while tripping is all very amazing at the time, but what use is it in the real world? Do you really believe these are independent entities in some ‘other dimension’? I don’t, I think they are epiphenomena of a brain with its chemistry out of kilter.

  161. #161 Narad
    January 1, 2014

    No we are done. I am not playing “Narad the computer dictator” with you.

    Oh, my, I did need a good laugh even if it’s more than an hour after midnight up here in the Canadian computer science department.

    I could care less what you think about me and I have nothing to justify to you.

    Well, sure:

    I guarantee I have stronger science credentials than most of you here. Go ahead and go down that road.

    Oddly, the only thing to be seen “down that road” seems to be your backside.

    You are horribly awkward online and I laugh thinking about your social skills in person.

    I doubt you’re capable of such ideation. How would you characterize your online presentation of yourself? “Suave?” I’ve already invited you to detail your analysis of what is “creepy” about a straightforward libertarian offer, viz., if you can’t refrain from calling people “pigs” and referring to their “c*nts” and imagining telling them to “suck your potent d*ck” and asking about how they’d like to be raped then I wouldn’t tell your mommy, but you have been reticent.

    In fact, you have pretty much postured and yellow-bellied your way all along.

    In fact I don’t trust you at all and you seem like a rat.

    Given your demonstrated character, your “trust” is of no concern to me whatever, and I daresay the opinion is universal. Perhaps you’d like to define “a rat.”

    Oh yeah and by the way, the biggest obstacle for the psychedelic experience is the government that you all love and support so viciously.

    As I’ve already mentioned, 50 bucks and a P.O. box will get you 400 grams of fresh P. cubensis in a month’s time if you can handle a preloaded syringe and a sack of presterilized medium. This doesn’t strike me as an enormous obstacle for aspiring “psychonauts.”

    But of course, you fall back upon your usual defense mechanism of “the government that you all love and support so viciously.” I’ve already mentioned that you don’t know anything about my politics. Seriously, go try trotting out your routine at Popehat. I’ll wait.

    The “biggest obstacle,” if you would like my opinion as a former member of the clergy and, now, titled laity, is psychological constipation so severe that no 5-HT–based laxative is going to remedy the situation. You have grabbed onto attachment flotsam and gotten used to the Water Wings.

    You advance that you “have lost track about which molecules form my body and which ones form the surrounding environment.” Do you have the slightest idea how stupid this sounds to either a monist materialist or a monist idealist? A run-of-the-mill T’ang Ch’an type would beat the living daylights out of you, and it’s all downhill from there.

    The first gate (Wu!) is very simple. But you try to make a show of “interact[ing] with multiple sets of beings in different dimensions,” which is overt supernaturalism. So I ask you a simple question: Are these “beings” inside your mind or outside?

  162. #162 Narad
    January 1, 2014

    ^ Blockquote fail, etc. The radio has just warned me when to take precautions against “The Capitol Steps,” so that’s something.

  163. #163 Narad
    January 1, 2014

    ^^ Also, “could refrain.”

  164. #164 herr doktor bimler
    January 1, 2014

    I would enjoy watching him trying to choke down some San Pedro cactus sludge, though.

    At the risk of introducing the issue of coffee enemas into yet another thread, let me just say that experiments have been made in absorbing the ‘cactus juice’ in a way which bypassed the vile flavour and the vomiting.

  165. #165 Chris,
    January 1, 2014

    Delysid: ” Several of you have the same liberal venom tainting the comments (lilady, Chris, Pig, etc), making them practically indistinguishable.”

    I have mostly confined myself to correcting your fractured historical “facts.” I am not quite sure how actually knowing history, and about the existence of several amendments to the US Constitution that were passed in the last 150 years makes one a liberal. But I guess that is one warped definition. I guess I’ll have to call my dad a liberal even though he dutifully watches Fox News, and actually reads history.

    So now mind altering chemicals are good for you? Wow, that explains lots, now I know why you can’t think straight. Please be sure to include that bit of information when you open up your dental practice.

  166. #166 Gray Falcon
    January 1, 2014

    Am I the only one who thinks Delysid sounds like he needs serious psychiatric help? At the very least, he sounds like he’s still using hallucinogens, which would explain why he keeps responding to arguments nobody has made, and failing to notice serious questions about his stances.

  167. #167 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    January 1, 2014

    So now mind altering chemicals are good for you? Wow, that explains lots, now I know why you can’t think straight. Please be sure to include that bit of information when you open up your dental practice.

    Just think of the future blog fodder he’ll become; that ought to bring a smile to you.

  168. #168 Renate
    January 1, 2014

    I still don’t get Delysids obsession with liberalism. Where I live liberals are mostly the ones that want a smaller government and less regulations.

  169. #169 Vicki
    January 1, 2014

    “I’ve taken more hallucinogens than you, therefore I am correct” is not a valid argument no matter who makes it, nor how many drugs any of the participants in the conversation have taken, or when.

    It’s very weird seeing it offered on an unrelated topic–if the discussion were about the effects of those drugs, or applications in psychotherapy, it would still be a bad argument, but I can see how a person would get there. “I’ve taken more acid, therefore I am right about economics”? No.

  170. #170 Gray Falcon
    January 1, 2014

    Try to remember that Delysid isn’t arguing with us in good faith. Has stance appears to be “whatever makes me feel morally superior at the moment.” At one point, he declares “NO GOVERNMENT”, then when confronted with the true face of anarchy, switches to a “minimal government” viewpoint. There’s no point discussing anything with him, only pointing out his brazen dishonesty to everyone else.

  171. #171 Denice Walter
    January 1, 2014

    @ Vicki:

    You know, a long time ago (prior to my own studies), a few advocates were imagining hallucinogens as a therapeutic aid or as a means of opening the ‘doors of perception’. I have so far never heard convincing evidence for its use in psychotherapy for any condition altho’ there is evidence that this type of drug might adversely affect certain psychological conditions ( esp SMI).

    However I’m sure that some explorers of the inner unknown DO believe that they’ve benefitted from their travels there. Artists and writers might welcome the expansive experience as the entry zone for new subjects but seriously, as a cautious experimenter myself, I never saw elves or magical glowing raccoons *a la* McKenna and Mullis, respectively, merely enhanced visual contours and contrasting hued shadows.
    Might make nice photos but I doubt I could get a camera to capture it.

  172. #172 Narad
    January 1, 2014

    Almost forgot.

    Oh yeah and by the way, the biggest obstacle for the psychedelic experience is the government that you all love and support so viciously.

    You mean the one that passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which doesn’t apply to the states because of pretty much the same reasoning that you lauded from Franklin Pierce? Do you recall this exchange, in which, when demonstrated to be wrong and incapable of even understanding your own source, resorted to asserting that the “massively hypocritial” government had figured it would give “special permission” to Rick Doblin?

    That reminds me of a story:

    “While my first Patriarch of the West was functioning everything went well, but when Jim Boudreau resigned after a bust (brought on, he said, by the same kind of invasion of his little farm in Oregon by nitwit hordes as we resisted, a little longer, in the East) and I appointed a dentist named William Shyne to the position, all communication ceased. Shyne simply took my literature, replaced my name with his own, and kept all the records to himself. Thousands of kids on the West Coast joined under those circumstances, and can’t be blamed for getting a very distorted picture of the nature and function of the church.

    “Later I was told on good authority (Mike Duncan) that Shyne was a raving paranoid speed freak who generally traveled with a submachine gun under the front seat of his car and by no means limited his dealing activities to the psychedelic sacraments. But I didn’t suspect any of this at the time, having grown up with a different image of dentists. I wrote Shyne a couple letters requesting records, but got no answers.

    “‘What should I do about this son of a bitch?’ I asked Haines, after telling him the whole story.

    “‘We have a mimeograph machine here, Kleps. Write a bulletin and excommunicate the bastard.’

    “‘I’m flat broke, Bill,’ I said. This was true. Of course, one of the reasons it was true was that I hadn’t put out a bulletin, which always drew new members, and, of course, Shyne was copping all the initiation fees ($5) from the West.

    “I pay for it,” said Bali Ram, who had been listening to the conversation.

    “Well, I was still in no shape to write a bulletin, but I resolved to do it after my first trip [since returning], and immediately went downstairs and signed up for meditation duty….

    “The response to the new bulletin was very gratifying. The difference between $5 or $10 a day and nothing a day is a profound and highly meaningful difference. It liberates the imagination, particularly if you are a heavy smoker. I found that a variety of plots and schemes were appearing in my consciousness again, and I could, just barely, envision a happy future without Morning Glory Lodge or my family.

    “Such are the mysterious ways of the wondrous chemical discovered by accident in Switzerland almost thirty years ago. It loosens the chains—any kind of chains. Where you move is up to you, but you are free to move.”

  173. #173 Gray Falcon
    January 1, 2014

    As far as I can tell, most libertarians believe that in their ideal society, their hard work and intelligence would put them on top, and that clearly rules are the only things holding them back.

    Mrs. Asimov: How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was easy to get servants.

    Isaac Asimov: It would be horrible… We’d be the servants.

  174. #174 AdamG
    January 1, 2014

    Seriously, go try trotting out your routine at Popehat. I’ll wait.

    I would pay to see this.

  175. #175 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    January 1, 2014

    @Delysid

    Skipped answering my questions again, eh? Too busy tripping? We were discussing a Typhoid Mary type of situation. You said:

    The anarcho-capitalist/libertarian way of handling those situations is banishment (as opposed to forced quarantine or forced medication). I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with this, as I would support a rudimentary court system to deal with people who harmed others (including infecting them with a disease).

    I had several followup questions that I asked you back before Christmas, to wit:

    Who would do this banishing? What if some in the community support Mary’s right to employment within the community? Who would enforce Mary’s banishment to prevent her coming back in? And where would you banish Mary to? Into the wild? Into another community?

    Also, in terms of a rudimentary court, who would administer it? Who would grant authority to and enforce its rulings?

    Why do you avoid answering? Is it because you have no answers? Does Libertarianism fail you? Answer, and show how your ideal world would handle the situation.

  176. #176 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    January 1, 2014

    @AdamG

    I, too, would pay to see him over at Popehat. Break out the popcorn.

  177. #177 Narad
    January 1, 2014

    There’s no point discussing anything with him, only pointing out his brazen dishonesty to everyone else.

    And hubris.

  178. #178 Krebiozen
    January 2, 2014

    Denice,

    I have so far never heard convincing evidence for its use in psychotherapy for any condition altho’ there is evidence that this type of drug might adversely affect certain psychological conditions ( esp SMI).

    Some researchers were reporting promising results using various of these drugs in combination with psychotherapy before research in this area was made illegal. I remember reading that Timothy Leary and others had reported almost miraculous results using LSD and psilocybin in this way to reduce recidivism in criminals and to treat alcoholism. The idea was that giving someone an ecstatic quasi-religious experience is good for them, and makes them a better person, which makes some sort of sense to me. Leary claimed that LSD could loosen psychological imprints and change behavior at a very deep level, but I’m not aware of any research that supports that notion.

    As I recall, when I looked at Leary’s actual results they weren’t quite as impressive as reported – interesting but not miraculous. Again as I recall it was amphetamine derivatives like MDMA (aka Ecstasy) that had the best results with psychotherapy, allowing patients to recall and discuss painful material from their past more comfortably. More research is needed, perhaps.

    I never saw elves or magical glowing raccoons *a la* McKenna and Mullis, respectively, merely enhanced visual contours and contrasting hued shadows.

    Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a short acting but very intense psychedelic that, when smoked or injected iv, appears to hurtle the user through a sort of kaleidoscopic space into another universe, one apparently inhabited by the ‘machine elves’ and other non-human entities that McKenna reported. Clinical Psychiatrist Rick Strassman, who was given permission to do human research with DMT, describes his experiments administering the drug to a number of subjects in ‘DMT: The Spirit Molecule’.

    Some of the reports are very reminiscent of the reports of ‘alien abductees’, with subjects finding themselves on a table being operated on by alien robot creatures, for example. This would suggest that either this kind of experience is somehow hardwired into human brains, or that this is a ‘real’ experience in some sense, in some sort of parallel universe perhaps, as some ‘psychonauts’ claim. Both possibilities are strange, but I tend to go with the first 😉

    I do find it interesting that different drugs of this class characteristically induce different kinds of hallucinations. I remember reading of experiments with harmaline where the subjects, who didn’t know what they had been given, mostly reported hallucinations of jaguars and snakes, which was consistent with the South American source of the harmaline used. LSD hallucinations are relatively rare, though visual distortions often occur, and psilocybin typically results in sometimes dramatic visual distortions, and beautiful closed-eye hallucinations of brightly colored and rapidly changing geometric shapes, or sometimes vast landscapes. There must be some physiological reason for these consistencies, and I would like to understand this better.

  179. #179 Renate
    January 2, 2014

    I’m not sure, but I think there were some experiments with LSD to treat people who came from concentrationcamps after WWII.

  180. #180 Denice Walter
    January 2, 2014

    @ Krebiozen:

    There is a certain consistency that leads me to believe that there is indeed a physiological basis which I can imagine taking place in certain brain areas – which I won’t go into now. I’ve also wondered about synaesthesia ( which I have a touch of in highly restricted circumstance w/o meds**).
    Of course I’m very interested in the visual type. I remember also reading de Quincy’s famous descriptions of his opium visions. To its drug its own species of vision I suppose.
    I did my own experiential research years ago but was very careful- as women should be in these situations.

    On MDMA:
    several years ago, the youngsters who rent the posh palace next door ( with the constantly changing cast of characters) were involved in rave culture- including 2 young women who sang with a well-known dj- so occasionally there would be late night parties on the balcony and adjoining area. Everyone just *loved* each other so much: it was touching. I never took much of anything from them other than cocktails. One of the original group still resides there but I believe that he and his friend only smoke pot/ cigarettes/ vape. The posh palace is now totally gay. A rather fortunate turn of events, I think.

    ** certain types of repetive musical patterns invoke particular visuals in the mind’s eye- mostly turning or rolling wheels of white light.

  181. #181 Delysid
    January 5, 2014

    @Krebiozen

    DMT, I learned through many mistakes, is extremely technique sensitive when vaporizing it. People who have vaporized DMT and didn’t “see” the machine elves didn’t do it right. I used quotation marks around see because your eyes are no longer a conducting notable sensory information.

    There are two reproducible and consistent levels to the DMT experience. The first and lower level is hyperspace. This is where your environment is a kaleidoscope. It’s very intense and beautiful, but you can pop in and out of it. You can talk to your friends while simultaneously tripping. You are aware of your location in the physical world we are used to. A metaphor to describe this phenomenon is blasting off into outer space but failing to make it into orbit.

    The higher level is called breaking through. This beyond hyperspace where you are transported into other realms. You no longer occupy your body and your eyes and ears and skin are irrelevant. You will encounter other beings. They are always delighted to see you, but their curiosity can be a little uncomfortable (at least at first) because they crowd around you and don’t give you space. It would be as if an alien suddenly appeared in your living room at a party, and everyone surrounded it and tried to welcome it into our world.

    In one trip you can go into several different realms. Usually the realms are unique to each trip, but it is possible to revisit a realm in a different trip. These are the most amazing in my opinion.

    I haven’t personally experienced this, but apparently you can also meet other people, other psychonauts, in the world beyond the breakthrough. I’ve been told stories about people talking to each other in a DMT trip and then meeting in real life later on. It’s unexplainable scientifically.

    The key to blasting off is to have the right equipment. You need a long glass pipe and a heat trap to block the flame from pyrolizing and destroying the delicate DMT molecules. You also need to take 3 massive hits which are held in as long as possible. It takes teamwork.

    This is not easy, as by the second inhalation the sober world is already collapsing around you. The come up is kind of violent, and the though of taking a third hit is terrifying. You can’t hold the pipe yourself and it must be put to your lips by your friend. You can’t see them but you can still hear their voice and directions to inhale again. It is so intense by the 2nd expiration that it is hard not to hesitate, but breaking through on the third hit is actually peaceful. The breakthrough is much more calm than hyperspace.

    Also, I see people here are still deliberately refusing to understand my comments. It is quite frustrating. It’s classic groupthink. No one has represented or repeated back any of my arguments correctly. Narad can’t seem to acknowledge that Franklin Pierce’s address to Congress was about not providing welfare to the insane through land grants because of the slippery slope. His insane tangent was unreadable. Someone else seems to think that because I state that because I understand psychedelics that I also understand economics. NO. I understand economics because I study economics. Narad pretends to be an expert on every topic and no one corrects him. Of course the mob never turns on someone in the mob. It’s like in the South Park episode mocking pretentious atheists in which the otters kill the wise one.

  182. #182 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    January 5, 2014

    @Delysid

    Still no answers to my questions. Very well, I conclude from your silence that Libertarianism, as presented by you, has no way to deal with the situation.

  183. #183 JerryG
    March 11, 2014

    Damn! A lone libertarian (on LSD, no less) managed to hold the fort and make short work of a bunch of predictable, ad hominem-spewing lefties. Delysid, hats off to you!

  184. #184 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    March 12, 2014

    JerryG, you must be living on Htrae if you believe what you wrote.

  185. […] variety of libertarianism. For instance, Ronald Bailey actually once presented what he called a pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Unfortunately, this time around, Reason.com has gone totally off the deep end when it comes to […]

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.