A couple of weeks ago, I first took note of a new conspiracy theory that’s been brewing in the antivaccine crankosphere, namely the claim that big pharma has been systematically murdering alternative medical doctors, starting with autism quack Jeff Bradstreet, who committed suicide the day after the FDA raided his office. Of course, it didn’t take long for various supporters of quackery to conclude that it was a hit job. Heck, just yesterday, Julie Wilson, a staff writer working for uber-crank Mike Adams, posted a whopper of a conspiracy theory in which Bradstreet and other alternative docs were executed because vaccines supposedly increase the level of an enzyme called nagalase, which blocks the activity of a compound called GcMAF, which was the “treatment” for autism that Bradstreet was peddling, leading to autism, cancer, and practically every disease under the sun. According to this whopper, because GcMAF is a universal cure for cancer (which, by the way, it is not), big pharma couldn’t let him live, particularly since he “discovered” that vaccines induce nagalase production and thus cause cancer.

From there, the slaughter apparently began, the most recent victim being cancer quack Nicholas Gonzalez. That’s the new conspiracy theory. However, never let it be said that the antivaccine movement is incapable of concentrating on more than just one conspiracy theory at a time. In fact, they’re capable of concentrating on many. So it’s no surprise that an older conspiracy theory has been resurrected. I’m referring, of course, to the “CDC Whistleblower” conspiracy theory, which is a variant of the central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement, namely that the CDC is covering up smoking gun evidence that vaccines cause autism.

The so-called CDC whistleblower is a CDC psychologist named William Thompson. He was an author on several pivotal papers examining whether vaccines cause autism. All of the studies were negative, of course, but that just adds to the conspiracy. Basically, nearly a year ago, Thompson was featured in a short film by Andrew Wakefield as a “whistleblower” who had “confessed” to a biochemical engineer named Brian Hooker that for one of the studies for which he had been a coauthor in 2004 (Destefano et al) investigators had “covered up” a correlation between MMR vaccination and autism in African-American males and had not followed the protocol as written. He based this claim on a truly incompetently done “reanalysis” of Destefano et al, which he later touted for its “simplicity,” not realizing that simplicity in statistical analyses of epidemiological data. Suffice to say, the original correlation was based on small numbers and disappeared when proper corrections for confounders was made. Not surprisingly, Hooker’s reanalysis was ultimately retracted. None of this has stopped Hooker and Wakefield from trying to make hay about this “CDC Whistleblower” scandal or antivaccinationists from swarming Twitter on the #CDCWhistleblower hashtag. Thompson himself has been silent since last fall, when this whole kerfuffle erupted, and probably wisely so. Whatever his motivation, he has caused considerable damage with his foolishness in having trusted Brian Hooker.

So yesterday, an antivaccine legislator that you might or might not heard of before, Rep. Bill Posey (R-Florida) apparently got up on the floor of the House to speak at something called Morning Hour, where members can basically say what they want for a few short minutes. (Given that there are 435 voting members of the House, there isn’t time to let every Representative blather on interminably.) Posey’s speech is about 1:02 in:

I know this because the team behind the antivaccine crankfest of a propaganda “documentary,” The Greater Good, sent out a missive touting what Posey said:

US Congressman Bill Posey spoke today on the floor of the US House quoting CDC whistleblower Dr. Bill Thompson stating that CDC DESTROYED DOCUMENTS to cover their tracks when they concealed their own study’s findings that MMR vaccine caused a huge risk of autism in black boys when given before 3 years of age.

Thanks to our friends at Age of Autism who broke this story.

PLEASE EMAIL CONGRESSMAN POSEY:
Send EMAILS of support directly to Bill Posey’s assistant Patricia Febro at Patricia.Febro@mail.house.gov.

PLEASE ALSO EMAIL/CALL/WRITE YOUR OWN CONGRESSPERSON. Include the link to the C-SPAN video. Find your Representative here: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Emails become permanent records, unlike faxes or postal mail, which might become ‘lost’. Emails do NOT have to be long, just say “I support Bill Posey and thank him for his testimony today regarding the CDC’s intentional destruction of documents. I am grateful William Thompson retained hard copies documenting the truth and as a parent of a vaccine injured child, I am requesting a full investigation into this issue.” or something like this. Request that Congress subpoena Dr. Thompson to testify in front of Congress.

First of all, I’m not sure about that claim that postal mail is less “permanent” than e-mail. Be that as it may, what’s far more important is what Posey said, rather than what cranks who made an antivaccine movie are urging their fellow cranks to do; so let’s take a look at that. Age of Autism helpfully has provided a transcript, so that I don’t have to do the painful thing I’ve sometimes done and make a transcript myself.

I’ll also dispense with Posey’s denial that he is antivaccine, stated thusly, “To begin with, I am absolutely, resolutely pro-vaccine. Advancements in immunization have saved countless lives and have greatly benefited public health.” This is almost as risible as Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. characterizing himself as “fiercely pro-vaccine.” It’s nonsense. Posey is a man who has been on the side of the antivaccine fringe for quite some time. Heck, he even appeared at the antivaccine quackfest Autism One in 2013 as part of a “Congressional panel”! He even introduced legislation that’s gone nowhere requiring the CDC to do a retrospective “vaccinated vs. unvaccinated” study. As I put it, Posey appears to be vying to take over the title of most antivaccine legislator in the U.S. Congress since Dan Burton retired. Not surprisingly, he has received not-insubstantial donations from prominent members of the antivaccine movement, several with names that, if you typed them into the search box of this blog, would bring up multiple posts packed with pristine Insolence. Whenever someone who is a associated with the antivaccine movement and has demonstrated antivaccine proclivities through his actions so piously denies being antivaccine, a good rule of thumb is that he is almost certainly antivaccine, and in this case Posey is just that.

After citing Thompson’s one and only public statement on the issue since Wakefield’s, issued nearly a year ago, Posey read a new statement allegedly made by Thompson. Most of it is stuff I’ve heard before and blogged about, but this part was new:

At the bottom of Table 7 it also shows that for the non-birth certificate sample, the adjusted race effect statistical significance was huge. All the authors and I met and decided sometime between August and September ’02 not to report any race effects for the paper. Sometime soon after the meeting, we decided to exclude reporting any race effects, the co-authors scheduled a meeting to destroy documents related to the study. The remaining four co-authors all met and brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all the hard copy documents that we had thought we should discard and put them in a huge garbage can. However, because I assumed it was illegal and would violate both FOIA and DOJ requests, I kept hard copies of all documents in my office and I retained all associated computer files. I believe we intentionally withheld controversial findings from the final draft of the Pediatrics paper.

If this is a legitimate statement actually by Thompson, which is certainly possible, given that it’s known that Thompson has been in contact with Posey, this is the first time Thompson has alleged anything actually unethical or illegal. All his previous accusations before could easily be explained as being disagreements based on Thompson’s misunderstanding of statistics, how to control for confounding variables, and the perils of relying on such a small subset to make any conclusions. This is the first time he’s accused his coinvestigators of outright destruction of data, which is a very serious charge. Destruction of the primary documents for a government-funded scientific study is not only scientific fraud, but a federal crime as well.

I’m sure his former co-investigators are very happy to hear this. I’m also sure that saying such things will make Thompson even more popular at the CDC than he is now, which is almost certainly not very after what he did last year, taking his disagreements with co-investigators public, speaking to an antivaccine loon like Bill Hooker, and giving Andrew Wakefield ammunition to make more trouble. (One wonders what he does all day at the CDC these days.) Be that as it may this story doesn’t sound very credible at all. For one thing, the data for an epidemiological study would be not just on paper records, but in many computer files, in particular SPSS files used to do the statistical analysis and perhaps spreadsheets and databases storing all the data on the subjects. These would be stored on government servers, which are backed up every day, with backups kept for a long time, if not indefinitely. In other words, it’s not that easy to do what Thompson is accusing his co-investigators of doing. There would be both an electronic and paper trail that would be difficult to erase. Surely Thompson knows that; his co-investigators almost certainly did as well. Does that mean these allegations shouldn’t be investigated? At this point, there is probably little choice, but, given Thompson’s track record, my guess is that there is nothing to his charges, which would make him truly despicable to have made them.

Another rather curious issue is why Posey called for the Appropriations Committee to investigate. This makes no sense at all to me, given that the most appropriate committee to investigate charges of major research fraud at the CDC would be, as much as I hate to say it, Dan Burton’s old committee, now chaired by that tool of the supplement industry, Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. The Appropriations Committee isn’t the usual committee to look into allegations of governmental wrongdoing of this type.

That’s not the only curious issue, though. I also find it very strange that posey didn’t produce any actual documents. After all, if the documents are as damning as claimed and Thompson has given Posey his copies, why not be specific about what was destroyed? Why say only that he would provide the documents to any Congressional representative who asked? That’s still not all, though. If, as Posey claims, this scientific fraud is so bad, why did he bring it up during a Morning Hour session. Morning Hour Debates are usually held on Mondays and Tuesdays and are dedicated to members speaking about whatever topic they like. Of course, this being Congress, it’s more complex than that, with rules over who is chosen to speak for an individual session, and the like, but that’s basically it. Another pertinent fact is that this is the last week Congress is in session before the August recess. So why give this speech in a Morning Debate the week before everyone in Congress heads back to his district for five weeks?

My guess is that Posey is doing this as a favor for his paying supporters in the antivaccine movement, but doing it in such a way that he’s on C-Span giving a speech asking for an investigation of Thompson’s allegations, but at a time when no one in Congress is paying attention to anything but getting major work done in time to be able to blow out of town. Given that Andrew Wakefield is working on a movie (oh, joy!), as we learn from this interview:

Hilariously (or sadly, depending on your point of view), in the section about the CDC Whistleblower, starting at about the 31:00 mark. In between the rants about big pharma, pharma shill gambits, and attacks on the CDC, Wakefield claims that he has all the documents as well. He claims that Thompson is a statistician and epidemiologist. Thompson is neither. He’s a psychologist. He also claims that he “outed” Thompson to protect him, because otherwise they were going to be dredging the river for him. That’s right. Wakefield actually claimed that he was looking out for Thompson’s best interests, rather than Wakefield’s best interests. Anyone who has studied Wakefield knows how ridiculous that claim is, because Wakefield is about nothing if not his own self-interest. But damn if it doesn’t add spice to the conspiracy theory. Maybe with all the excitement among antivaccinationists about the conspiracy theory in which alternative medicine docs are being systematically murdered by big pharma, Wakefield had to come up with a claim that William Thompson would be murdered by the government if it weren’t for his intervention. Who knows?

Whatever the case, Wakefield is continuing to flog the CDC whistleblower fiction, and Thompson appears to be going along with it while Posey is using it to keep antivaccinationists funding his campaign. What I highly doubt is that there is any malfeasance to be found. Indeed, if this statement from Thompson turns out to be genuinely from him, I’d wonder how long it will be until DeStefano and the other co-authors of the original sue Thompson for libel because he just accused them of a major federal crime.

Comments

  1. #1 Orac
    August 4, 2015

    So all you bullfece-spinning pro-vaxxers in this blog should really shut up about conspiracy; your flimsy, transparent tactics are so very worn out. They serve only to provide fodder for intellectual masturbation.

    Irony meter destroyed. Again.

  2. #2 JP
    August 4, 2015

    No conspiracy when people were encouraged to have tobacco-smoking parties.

    Boringest party idea EVER.

  3. #3 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    Yes, folks, this is the kind of utter nonsense the pro-vax banshees use to excoriate anyone who has rational concern.

    Please state a rational concern to test this theory. Thanks.

  4. #4 PeterT
    August 4, 2015

    @ Mephisto # 176
    The reason we (as a society) poke kids with toxic soups is entirely socio-economic, or merely profit-generating policy, based on a dangerous medical half-truth, namely the Germ Theory of Disease. Brilliant Pasteur contemporary Antoine Béchamp said of the theory, “It is all the moire dangerous because it can be proven scientifically.” Hope you appreciate the wry humor there. Pasteur even recanted on his deathbed, admitting that terrain is primary, not the presence of the bug.

    Vaccination was developed when virtually nothing was understood about the hugely complex immune response (it’s not even sufficiently understood now). Thus, there could be no credible science in the development of an invasive procedure that replaced variolation (which actually makes more sense than the needle). It became policy-based “science,” and that’s what it is today, when there is not a single, credible controlled study showing that it works, and not one long-term study on deleterious effects. Belief in it is based mostly upon statistics that have been ‘fixed.’ That is, in every case, the vaccine was introduced well into the downturn of the infectious cycle (that cycle being another convenient ‘secret’ of the pokers, who like to ignore the fact that epidemics burn themselves out with no interference from Dr Frankenstein).

    One truth is, that vaccines have been shown, via massive breakouts post-vaccination, to increase both the incidence and severity of disease. The apparently positive risk/benefit ratio arises from very incomplete records on short-term damage, plus the complete lack of long-term information (no accident, of course 🙂 Some physicians hold that the childhood diseases ‘exercise’ and strengthen immunity. People hold ‘chicken pox parties’ for example, where the kids go to contract the illness for that purpose.

    Another truth is that we are ‘made of’ myriad bacteria whose intelligence so far exceeds that of “scientists” it just ain’t funny. But scientific arrogance takes hold, and when that is accompanied by profit-driven malfeasance, the result is “medical nemesis” to quote Ivan Illich (and all you system-genuflecters ought to read that book).

    With a healthy gut, there is more serotonin going from gut to brain than the other way round. It’s a mass of extraordinary intelligence, some call a ‘second brain’ (whereas, especially in the case of conventional medical scientists, it could be called the first brain).

    When disease is very severe, it usually indicates an array of deficiencies, none of which are a vaccine (or drug), but which are imbalances in the terrain of the individual. For example, most bugs like an acid condition. This is the hypothesis that needs to be tested in a controlled way: With a healthy gut, a body pH in the neutral zone, proper hydration, proper nourishment, and toxin management, it is virtually impossible to become seriously or fatally ill. Exceptions would be in a range lower than that claimed for vaccine risk/benefit.

    Of course, this has not been tested, because it gravely threatens the money-supply such that the folks with the money would never fund it. Now, did medicine endeavor to determine if vaccines themselves would damage/unbalance gut flora? Or, for that matter, any of the meddling it was doing? Not on your life. In fact, “scientific” medicine has virtually ignored the flora for a good century while proceeding to damage it in multiple ways. Not done, they then strut like peacocks, calling themselves scientists. On the other hand, ‘alternative’ docs have been warning about this for decades. But the light is beginning to dawn for Dr Frankenstein, who will now deign to advise you to eat a yogurt after he assaults you with fungal dung. I’ve got a new term for it: science-based meddlcine.

    An article in Science Daily says:
    “The microbes in the human gut belong to three broad domains, defined by their molecular phylogeny: Eukarya, Bacteria, and Achaea. Of these, bacteria reign supreme, with two dominant divisions — known as Bacteroidetes and Firmicutes — making up over 90 percent of the gut’s microbial population. In contrast, the Achaea that exist in the gut are mostly composed of methanogens (producers of methane) and specifically by Methanobrevibacter smithii — a hydrogen-consumer.

    “Within the bacterial categories however, enormous diversity exists. Each individual’s community of gut microbes is unique and profoundly sensitive to environmental conditions, beginning at birth. Indeed, the mode of delivery during the birthing process has been shown to affect an infant’s microbial profile.

    “Communities of vaginal microbes change during pregnancy in preparation for birth, delivering beneficial microbes to the newborn. At the time of delivery, the vagina is dominated by a pair of bacterial species, Lactobacillus and Prevotella. In contrast, infants delivered by caesarean section typically show microbial communities associated with the skin, including Staphylococcus, Corynebacterium, and Propionibacterium. While the full implications of these distinctions are still murky, evidence suggests they may affect an infant’s subsequent development and health, particularly in terms of susceptibility to pathogens.”
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120606102710.htm

    What you and your indoctrinated, biased, and misinformed (or disinforming?) cohorts in this blog need to do is come down off your mushrooms, open your minds, and do some homework to get some brain food from outside the bowl of conventional pablum you are being fed. There’s a whole, great miraculous world out there beyond the rectangular-brained prison you bounce around in.

  5. #5 Gray Falcon
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT: How many smallpox deaths were there last year?

  6. #6 shay
    August 4, 2015

    “Government and the corporate monolith are totally above reproach, get it?”

    Good luck finding anyone on this board who has ever said that.

  7. #7 Chris
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT, the 1990s called. They want their UseNet trolls back.

    Though for a moment I thought this was the same guy from UseNet who inspired the Pharma Shill Gambit. But that was “PeterB” not “PeterT.”

  8. #8 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT – while that certainly appears rational, it includes statements that are in contradiction to fact as well as unsubstantiated (so far as I can tell) speculation.

    You mention “a dangerous medical half-truth, namely the Germ Theory of Disease.” What makes it a half truth? What part of it is false? Are you claiming that germs don’t cause diseases, despite the tremendous success of germ theory in fighting disease? If so, why can it be shown repeatably that a creature will only catch a certain disease in the presence of the specific pathogen?

    You state, “When disease is very severe, it usually indicates an array of deficiencies, none of which are a vaccine (or drug), but which are imbalances in the terrain of the individual. For example, most bugs like an acid condition.” How do you know this? What evidence do you have? Can you suggest how to change the balance of my terrain so that I would not succumb to, say, rabies?

    You say “Of course, this has not been tested.” Great – how do you know it’s true?

    Your quote from Science Daily about difference in gut flora based on vaginal vs. cesarean birth is interesting but says nothing whatever about how that gut flora would affect disease resistance.

    As to getting off my mushroom, I’m afraid I don’t have one at the moment.

  9. #9 Not a Troll
    August 4, 2015

    ^ An abstract on gut microbiota and colonization resistance here http://www.jimmunol.org/content/194/9/4081.short

    Unfortunately, there’s a charge for full text.

  10. #10 Krebiozen
    August 4, 2015

    Oh great, another bright spark who is uncritically channeling whale.to and telling everyone else to “open your minds”. Peter T, please learn some critical thinking skills, ask yourself how you know any of what you assert is true, and go check some facts. Maybe start with the incidence of measles in the US before and after vaccination was introduced. Take a look at the incidence of chicken pox in the US and the UK currently too. That might puzzle you.

  11. #11 PeterT
    August 4, 2015

    @Mephisto # 177
    You have tied yourself up in a logical fallacy. That there are more theories than actualities is not a valid reason for virtually automatic dismissal of suggested conspiracies. While poor conspiracy researchers might even outnumber the good ones, this is not a condemnation of the area of study itself. Yet, that is the pervasive attitude of this blog and its denizens. In maintaining this attitude almost as policy, they do the truth a great disservice. Such dishonesty cannot be called a “clear-thinking” or scientific exercise, but more of a witch hunt based in a religion-like fanaticism, even a desperate effort to avoid any revelations that could put a chink in their ’statusquovian’ armor.

    I agree with what you say about poorly constructed theories. But if you stop and think for a minute, you realize this will greatly offend the genuine researchers even more than it does categorical conspiracy deniers. And when you say, “The number of conspiracy theories significantly outnumbers the number of actual conspiracies,” this is a crass assumption, since it’s entirely possible that a myriad of conspiracies has not yet been uncovered, or has not become general knowledge. I suggest that this is the case and that if the entire truth were known, the numbers would reverse in a huge ratio. Thus, maybe you haven’t done your homework, but have succumbed to peer pressure—or cognitive dissonance.

    It is a fact that propaganda is much more necessary for controllers in an open society than it is in an totalitarian one. In the latter, force and threat are the main tools. In the open society, to maintain control, you must be able to engender belief systems that keep the people in line, nose to the wheel. Here’s a very good documentary on this, one that’s instructive about the Founding as well: metanoia-films.org/psywar/

    The most pertinent quotes I can recall in this case are, “Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public disbelief.” – Marshall McLuhan

    And, “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain

    If you think something is untrue, say so straight out and provide something to support that opinion, don’t just sit back and lazily call it a name, such as conspiracy theory. That’s simply a low-brow tactic belying intelligence.

  12. #12 Carrie McCann
    August 4, 2015

    @novalox
    In both of novalox’ insults to others’ opinions—telling in itself—she misses commenters’ points. There are far too many of her persuasion on the right AND the left:
    Whenever opposed, insult, belittle, and insert hatefulness.
    Now that she has drawn me into her unproductive game—although our side is much more mannerly—I repeat my original point:
    The article above is so littered with editorialized venom that you instantly mistrust the writer as prejudiced and therefore untrustworthy to give you the straight scoop.

  13. #13 Gray Falcon
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT, I don’t need words, I need numbers. How many deaths were from smallpox last year?

  14. #14 JustaTech
    August 4, 2015

    I second Gray Falcon!

    PeterT: How many cases of smallpox were there last year? In the last decade? Come on, it’s not hard. It’s not like smallpox is a subtle disease.

    Also, what theory do you have to replace the germ theory of infectious disease? How do you explain a whole group of people coming down with the same symptoms at the same general time, if not by an infectious agent?

  15. #15 AdamG
    August 4, 2015

    “It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” ― Mark Twain

    The funny part is that you were fooled into thinking this is a legit Mark Twain quote.

  16. #16 AdamG
    August 4, 2015

    The article above is so littered with editorialized venom

    Carrie, would you care to discuss the actual contents of the article, rather than your own ‘editorializing?’

  17. #17 PeterT
    August 4, 2015

    @Gray #152
    Here we have another self-styled intellectual masturbator and know-it-all who can’t read, or who superimposes his own impression on the words. Did I say ‘climate change is nonsense’? No, I said climate science is corrupt. Did I say HIV doesn’t cause AIDS? No, I said that the papers purporting to prove cause were junk. If you can’t make these logical distinctions, I won’t even waste my bytes arguing with a such a bonehead, even though it would give me great pleasure to introduce you to the toilet.

  18. #18 PeterT
    August 4, 2015

    @shay #153
    Why don’t you try the dictionary, effete, impudent snob.

  19. #19 Chris
    August 4, 2015

    Should I even bother with my measles incidence census data and accompanying question?

    Ms. McCann, you noted you did not like the article but you did not say why. You just complained about the tone, even this block has “Insolence” in its title. Instead of providing any kind of useful criticism you just use insult.

    A wee word of advice: if you don’t like the tone, then don’t use a worse one. If you don’t like folks questioning your statements then get off the Internet.

  20. #20 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT – The race is not always to the swift nor the contest to the strong, but that is the way to bet. While it is obvious that conspiracy theories exist, the odds of any particular effective conspiracy theory being true in the absence of significant evidence are not good.

    I’m perfectly willing to believe that a bunch of guys (mostly) who called themselves “patriots” entered into a conspiracy to overthrow British rule by force of arms, since there is a lot of evidence for that. I’m less willing to believe that vaccinations are only required because of a vast conspiracy to enrich the pharmaceutical companies at the expense of the people who are poisoned by untested chemical soups.

  21. #21 shay
    August 4, 2015

    My congratulations on your cat-like reflexes, Peter. Does this mean that everyone else who disagrees with you can expect, in due time, a string of irrelevant and oddly Edwardian insults?

    It has evidently escaped your notice that nearly everyone who posts here (most particularly our esteemed host) is far more qualified by education and job experience to comment on the subject than you have shown yourself to be.

    (And you still haven’t answered the smallpox question).

  22. #22 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    No, I said that the papers purporting to prove cause were junk.

    Actually you said “And it has been told in the excellent book “Fear of the Invisible,” by Janine Roberts, that the 4 original Gallo-Popovic papers purporting to prove that HIV causes AIDS were proven by no less than 3 high-level government reviews in the 1990’s to be absolute JUNK.” Given the context, what was that supposed to mean? Were the papers junk (though the basic conclusion that HIV causes AIDS is true), were the government reviews incorrect, or are you claiming that the papers were junk and HIV doesn’t cause AIDS?

  23. #23 PeterT
    August 4, 2015

    @Orac #202
    Ooop. Father Disinformer chimes. Ding dong.

  24. #24 John
    United States
    August 4, 2015

    My only question is: How can we NOT demand more evidence?

    With enough data and scientists looking at it, we shuold get a clearer picture.

    Anyways, guessing this is a non-event.

    P.S. Measles kill 5x as many people globally than the flu does in the USA, which seems on the surface that the flu is more dangerous per capita.

    So, if/when the flu vaccine is developed, it will become a priority as well for everyone. I mention this because its interesting.

    Now, once we’ve eliminated larger affecting risks like these, we will progressively dive into smaller and smaller risks like salmonella (400 deaths annually), down to deaths that kill 1 person a year because we will feel it to be “high risk” relative to all existing risks.

    Not sure this is the only long term direction out there, but sure seems like it.

  25. #25 Not a Troll
    August 4, 2015

    PeterT,

    Really? Is that anyway to treat the host. It’s his sandbox.

    • #26 Orac
      August 4, 2015

      True, but I’m ridiculously tolerant if idiots and assholes, as longtime readers know, to the point of regulars having to beg me repeatedly to ban particularly irritating trolls before I’ll consider doing it. 🙂

  26. #27 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    Now, once we’ve eliminated larger affecting risks like these, we will progressively dive into smaller and smaller risks like salmonella (400 deaths annually), down to deaths that kill 1 person a year because we will feel it to be “high risk” relative to all existing risks.

    John – I suspect that there will need to be periodic risk/benefit conversations as diseases are controlled and new vaccines become available.

    BTW, this is what the WHO says about salmonella:

    Salmonellosis is one of the most common and widely distributed foodborne diseases and is caused by the bacteria salmonella. It is estimated that tens of millions of human cases occur worldwide every year and the disease results in more than hundred thousand deaths.

  27. #28 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 4, 2015

    By the way, every death kills one person at a time.

  28. #29 Chris
    August 4, 2015

    John: “My only question is: How can we NOT demand more evidence?”

    For what?

  29. […] an antivaccine conspiracy theory that I’ve written about many times before, most recently less than a week ago. The long version of the explanation is in the links, but the short version is that a CDC […]

  30. #31 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    What it was supposed to mean is what it (gulp!) said! I’m just repeating what Roberts has provided much evidence for, that the papers were junk, according to the OSI and ORI. The purpose of my remark, if I must spell it out for you, was to demonstrate a very significant case of science fraud, something not uncommon in medical science (especially when it comes to vaccines).

    Logically, it is possible that even though the papers were junk, their conclusion was correct. But in all science, when the method etc is flawed, the conclusion comes into question, and then the whole matter must be repeated. But to allow the entire world to operate on a conclusion derived from junk, with millions of lives heavily affected, seems a bit irresponsible, wouldn’t you say?

    Another fraud occurred in the study that “proved” AZT useful against HIV. Originally a cancer drug, AZT was shelved for its extreme toxicity (DNA-chain termination). At the time, AIDS was “universally fatal in five years.” Medicine plays a roulette game called the Therapeutic Index, wherein the more deadly the ‘disease,’ the more toxic the drug is allowed to be. Thus, the Gallo-Popovic fraud was excuse to revive AZT.

    Our wonderful government leaped at the chance to provide a huge amount of the reagent thymidine to Burroughs-Wellcome, with no requirement for repayment. Pharma then turned around and was charging $150/shot, or $18k/year per patient. One main problem was that the ONE drug trial to prove AZT against HIV was aborted mid-stream, because, due to the outrageous side effects, subjects knew they were getting the real thing and not the placebo. This was considered sufficient to market AZT. Of course, when you died from drug consequences indistinguishable from AIDS…

    Roberts (and others, such as the Perth Group) goes on to conclude that HIV is not the cause of AIDS. I came to this opinion after reading several books on AIDS (not the least of which was Jon Rappoport’s “AIDS Inc.”) and after seeing what the august NAS and the system did to the world’s foremost retrovirologist, Peter Duesberg for simply submitting a long paper refuting the hypothesis. I have a copy of it, which he was kind enough to send me. It contains no less than 196 references, for what that’s worth. Instead of anyone replying in kind, Duesberg’s money dried up and he became an outcast (this is what I said to Robert Bell – it’s always the same thing: Anyone who bucks policy, the system, and Pharma’s bottom line, suddenly and magically becomes a crank spewing junk science. That’s the prevailing attitude in this blog, which is not interested in truth, but only in defending policy.

    It was at that point that Gallo-Popovic should have been peer-reviewed, but it was not allowed to happen. And anyone who wanted to do research practically had to write “I believe in HIV” across the top of the application, and, of course, get their cell lines from NIH/Gallo’s lab. At one point, we had 10,000 researchers on the planet operating on a fraud.

    The Perth Group is posting a methodical approach to settling this one way or the other. But, lo and behold! The criminal establishment is not listening. Knock me over with a feather.

  31. #32 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ Not #226
    Really? Was he respectful to me with his irony-meter remark? Or is reciprocity not required in the King’s Sandbox called Respectful Insolence? I can’t imagine that he’s unaware that his handle is an acronym for the antioxidant strength of food and supplements, which is truly ironic for one who causes inflammation. :-))

  32. #33 Gray Falcon
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT, [citation needed]. Also, how many people died from smallpox last year? You still haven’t answered that.

  33. #34 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ shay #222
    Thanks! I was inspired by your irrelevancy. Remaining first paragraph: false accusation. Or give examples of irrelevant insult.

    Credentials go only so far. The most educated (and one can say in this case, indoctrinated) individual can actually be wrong, or worse, be exploiting an esteemed place to disinform. More important is the cogency of what’s being said, as well as its disparity in re other sources of information. Almost universal in this forum, however, is not discourse aimed at the rational concerns of professionals and others about vaccines, based upon specific points, but a collection of disdainful wisecracks in intellectual clothes. What I call intellectual masturbation.

    Not sure what you mean by “the smallpox question.” Please use # ref, since I’m speaking to 10 people at the same time here.

  34. #35 Not a Troll
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT,

    I will never know how deeply offended you are/were at his comments but he is providing a service to you for free. To not consider this and stay respectful is an oversight on your part. For all I know he enjoys the sparring, but it is grating to me to watch blogs hosts treated w contempt.

    If you had a blog I would say the same thing in your defense.

  35. #36 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    Out of date off topic troll is stale and boring.

  36. #37 Orac
    August 5, 2015

    I can’t imagine that he’s unaware that his handle is an acronym for the antioxidant strength of food and supplements, which is truly ironic for one who causes inflammation

    I am aware of it now and have been for some time, but did not know that at the time I chose my pseudonym, which was chosen based on the name of a computer on an obscure British SF series from the late 1970s.

  37. #38 Denice Walter
    August 5, 2015

    I always find it hilarious when woo-meisters hawk products with “14000 ORAC”. or “high in ORAC”
    Although clueless in other ways, they DO know who Orac is.

  38. #39 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    Orac: “but did not know that at the time I chose my pseudonym,”

    Which you have been using for at least fifteen years or so, since it is how I first noticed you on misc.health.alternative. I just don’t quite remember if it was before or after the turn of the century.

    I do remember where I first saw the lame polio, germ denier, HIV not causing AIDS nonsense, etc that PeterB is enamored with was still the 1990s.

  39. #40 shay
    August 5, 2015

    Peter — how many people died of smallpox last year?

  40. #41 MI Dawn
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT: Orac’s real name and the reason he uses Orac are a simple test of intelligence we use here. You fail.

    Tell us, why has smallpox disappeared as a disease? I’m sure you can do it; many people HAVE asked you.

  41. #42 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 5, 2015

    @PeterT

    The purpose of my remark, if I must spell it out for you, was to demonstrate a very significant case of science fraud

    Yes, you need to spell it out. In context, this was not obvious. Your previous paragraph started with “Medicine is the story of downright LIE sold as gospel.” You never stated what the lie was – you made 2 overly simplistic comments (one about saturated fat and one about cholesterol) then went to the comment I quoted above. You never stated what the lie is that medicine is based on. The reference to Roberts’s book came completely out of left field and did not tie into your thesis in any relevant way. I will suddenly quote W.C. Fields as saying “Never give a sucker an even break.”

    The current scientific consensus remains that HIV causes AIDS. This is not “a conclusion derived from junk”; it is based on 30 years of research and observation. I agree that had only those papers ever linked HIV to AIDS that would have been insufficient to be a basis for action or treatment. That’s not the situation we find here.

    You are correct that AZT is sufficiently toxic that if people weren’t dying quickly of AIDS it would likely not have been used. There are better antiviral drugs now. AZT may well have been the best choice at the time, though I claim no special knowledge there.

    Roberts (and others, such as the Perth Group) goes on to conclude that HIV is not the cause of AIDS. I came to this opinion after reading several books on AIDS (not the least of which was Jon Rappoport’s “AIDS Inc.”) and after seeing what the august NAS and the system did to the world’s foremost retrovirologist, Peter Duesberg for simply submitting a long paper refuting the hypothesis.

    So when Grey Squirrel said above th”So, not only are vaccines poison, but climate change is nonsense and HIV doesn’t cause AIDS.”, he was accurately stating your view.

    Instead of anyone replying in kind, Duesberg’s money dried up and he became an outcast

    How do you know nobody replied in kind? People published multiple papers about AIDS, which Duesberg would frequently attempt to rebut. As to his funding, it is not unreasonable to decide to fund research you believe is going somewhere rather than ideas that don’t appear to have a future. I’m not acquainted with Dr Duesberg personally, but wouldn’t be surprised if he saw things differently.

    It was at that point that Gallo-Popovic should have been peer-reviewed, but it was not allowed to happen.

    Who prevented it? What keeps anyone from reviewing and, if desired, replicating their work? Besides needing funding, which you claim cannot be obtained (though you provide no evidence for same). And how do you fit the work of Dr Luc Montagnier, which pre-dates Gallo’s but finds remarkably similar results, in your scheme of things?

  42. #43 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 5, 2015

    My apologies – I wrote “AZT is sufficiently toxic that if people weren’t dying quickly of AIDS”. I should have written “AZT is sufficiently toxic that if people had not been dying quickly of AIDS”

  43. #44 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ Kreb #211
    It’s a double-edged sword, Kreb, meaning how does any of us, including you, know what we know. Your fallacious premise seems to be that VAX info from the mainstream is infallible. But what if it’s just propaganda you’ve fallen for? I’ve already checked my facts. For example, in all cases of major epidemics claimed to have been quelled by VAX, the VAX was introduced well into the downturn of the infectious cycle. It’s just appearances, and that’s no accident. I’ve already cited for you, apparently in vain, a couple of articles on the polio scam, wherein statistical milling was used to make it look like Salk worked. It did not.

    Also, before the measles VAX was introduced in 1963, in the period 1915-1958, there was already a 95% reduction in the death rate.

    I’m not puzzled at all, because your measles/chicken pox argument is purely correlative and really beneath you, not scientifically conclusive by any means. After all, how much Black Plague has there been since the Middle Ages, without a vaccine till about 2008. Or Spanish Flu, for which there was never a vaccine. Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines. These things come and go all by themselves. Improvements in public health practice and nutrition have also played an important role.

    Speaking of flu, the Cochrane Collaboration has declared flu vaccine virtually useless.

    In the Philippines shortly before the turn of the 20th century, was a massive smallpox outbreak after 99% vaccine saturation. This is only one of several such incidents.

    Moreover, the measles vaccine has never been subjected to rigorous testing for safety, and not even to non-rigorous testing when in combination with other vaccines. And I suppose it doesn’t make any diff to entities like you that many of the folks with measles in the recent “outbreak” (about a whole 150?) had been vaccinated. Or that all the polio cases in one decade were caused by the oral VAX. Or that recipients of live-virus vaccines can shed the virus just like normally infected people. I suggest you read this report by Barbara Loe Fisher http://www.nvic.org/CMSTemplates/NVIC/pdf/Live-Virus-Vaccines-and-Vaccine-Shedding.pdf

    CDC: “From December 9, 1983, to January 13, 1984, 21 cases of measles occurred in Sangamon County, Illinois.* Nine of the cases were confirmed serologically. The outbreak involved 16 high school students, all of whom had histories of measles vaccination after 15 months of age documented in their school health records. Of the five remaining cases, four occurred in unvaccinated preschool children, two of whom were under 15 months of age, and one case occurred in a previously vaccinated college student (Figure 5).

    “The affected high school had 276 students and was in the same building as a junior high school with 135 students. A review of health records in the high school showed that all 411 students had documentation of measles vaccination on or after the first birthday, in accordance with Illinois law.

    “Editorial Note: ***This outbreak demonstrates that transmission of measles can occur within a school population with a documented immunization level of 100%.*** This level was validated during the outbreak investigation. Previous investigations of measles outbreaks among highly immunized populations have revealed risk factors such as improper storage or handling of vaccine, vaccine administered to children under 1 year of age, use of globulin with vaccine, and use of killed virus vaccine (1-5). However, these risk factors did not adequately explain the occurrence of this outbreak.”
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000359.htm

  44. #45 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    The stale troll: “Also, before the measles VAX was introduced in 1963, in the period 1915-1958, there was already a 95% reduction in the death rate.”

    So what? That is just a measure of improved hospital care. Since about one in five who get measles end up with pneumonia from either from the virus itself or another pathogen because the disease suppresses the immune system. Inventing a way to keep people breathing when their lungs fill with fluid tends to keep them alive, but it is expensive.

    The following is 20th century American census data on measles incidence. You need to tell us, with references (and not NVIC!) why measles cases went down 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970. Please do not mention deaths, any other decade, any other disease nor any other country (neither England nor Wales are American states):

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

    “CDC: “From December 9, 1983, to January 13, 1984, 21 cases of measles occurred in Sangamon County, Illinois.* ”

    Has that happened since the second dose of MMR was implemented?

  45. #46 MI Dawn
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT: Seriously? After all, how much Black Plague has there been since the Middle Ages, without a vaccine till about 2008. Or Spanish Flu, for which there was never a vaccine. Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines. These things come and go all by themselves. Improvements in public health practice and nutrition have also played an important role.

    All those things still exist. They just don’t spread over a population as fast due to better treatments (hospitals, antibiotics), nutrition, and public health such as water and sewage. Plague occurs in the US even now.

    Scarlet fever? Why do you think we give antibiotics for strep throat? To PREVENT Scarlet fever and the possible cardiac infection it can lead to.

    And I’d love to see your citation for the smallpox epidemic in the Philippines in the early 20th century, with 99% vaccine saturation, when the US didn’t even have that high of levels.

  46. #47 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 5, 2015

    Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines.

    I’ve had the typhoid vaccine, so if it doesn’t exist then something is seriously wrong. There’s also a tuberculosis vaccine, though it is not routinely given in the US.

    Since typhoid is transmitted by contaminated food and water, it is perfectly reasonable to credit water treatment and sanitary sewers for the reduction in typhoid in the first world.

  47. #48 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    August 5, 2015

    In addition to being a boring AIDS and germ theory denialist, poor Peter T continues to demonstrate his stellar epi skillz with the stupid notion that immunsation rate = immunity rate.

  48. #49 Ren
    August 5, 2015

    “After all, how much Black Plague has there been since the Middle Ages, without a vaccine till about 2008. Or Spanish Flu, for which there was never a vaccine. Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines. These things come and go all by themselves. Improvements in public health practice and nutrition have also played an important role.”

    He doesn’t know that the “Spanish Flu” is H1N1, which is still very much around does he? Nor does he know that immunization is part of “public health practice”, does he?

    It’s always been amazing to me how people claim to have epidemiological knowledge and then epically fail at interpreting epidemiology.

  49. #50 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ Mephisto 243
    Again we have an R&C problem. I didn’t say “a” lie told as gospel, but generic LIE, with 3 examples, including the reference to Roberts’ description of a monstrous lie. Perhaps I should have said LIES, which might have cleared it up.

    In re ’30 years of research…’ If it gets off on the wrong foot, it can continue that way. Please also refer to the Perth Group on HIV/AIDS.

    In re Squirrel, I made myself clear in reply #218. And in 232, but, apology, I didn’t include the number to your 223. so you might have missed it.

    In re Duesberg funding evaporation: A very cute rationale you give for a guillotine by the system – of, I repeat, the world’s foremost retrovirologist at the time. Duesberg’s ideas simply didn’t support the giant financial windfall that was brewing. He had to be silenced and discredited. He also published a paper in “Cancer Research,” which Gallo refused to address, but said, according to Duesberg, “With friends like you, who needs enemies.”

    “Gallo’s claims were not helped by his subsequent behavior. He adamantly insisted that his approval was necessary before anyone received a sample of his virus to research it. He denied samples to many scientists, and, when he did agree to share, he imposed conditions that specifically forbad the researchers from repeating or trying to verify the experiments done by Gallo’s team to prove it caused AIDS!” “Fear of the Invisible,” Roberts, p. 117.

    Montagnier now says that HIV alone cannot cause AIDS. BTW, the story of the discovery of HIV is a convention hammered out by roundtable agreement after Gallo attempted to call his own a virus sent to him by Montagnier (which he pulled out of a lymph node of a Parisian fashion designer—who went on to live a normal life). This story is told in a book “AIDS: The HIV Myth” Apr 1989, by Jad Adams. Bottom line, Gallo is a sleaze bag who should still be hanging by his thumbs.

    Rappoport interviewed Duesberg for “AIDS Inc.” It might give more insight into establishment hate for him: “I think vaccine research is more silly than dangerous. Maybe the people doing the research could be dangerous. I don’t know. On the one hand, they say, look how wonderful we are, we’re going to give you protection agains HIV by producing antibodies in you. On the other hand, when people develop antibodies to HIV on their own and that is detected in a blood test, other people burn down their houses and people commit suicide.” “AIDS Inc,” P. 130.

  50. #51 shay
    August 5, 2015

    “I think vaccine research is more silly than dangerous.”

    No cause for hate there — profound contempt, yes. Hate, no.

  51. #52 Narad
    August 5, 2015

    Montagnier now says that HIV alone cannot cause AIDS.

    Given that you don’t believe in germ theory in the first place, there’s no telling why you’re belaboring it with a moron like Rappoport.

    Go test it out, already.

  52. #53 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ Chris 246.
    Thank you for making my case, namely that the VAX is always introduced on the downturn of the infectious cycle—and that’s what infectious epidemics are, cycles that wind themselves down. This is in the literature.

    The VAX was introduced in 1963, when measles incidence had dropped overall from 310 per 100k to somewhere between 245.4 and 135.1. Your problem, of course, is proving that incidence drop is more than correlation and would not have continued the trend without the vaccine. What you are implying is a wishful conclusion from what a is a totally uncontrolled experiment, and there is not one controlled experiment proving vaccine efficacy.

    Your stipulation about no NVIC is utter bullsh*t, so I respond no further. Sayonara.

  53. #54 AdamG
    August 5, 2015

    there is not one controlled experiment proving vaccine efficacy

    Nonsense. Here’s one published last week:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26214039

  54. #55 herr doktor bimler
    August 5, 2015

    Montagnier now says that HIV alone cannot cause AIDS.
    And he talks to homeopathic bacteria DNA with radio waves.

  55. #56 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ MI Dawn 247
    Many of you in this forum seem to have reading and comp problems or the propensity to twist words to your liking (this, of course, is a rhetorical tactic). I never said ‘these things don’t exist,’ did I. But I did say that improvements in sanitation, etc have made a big difference. Impossible to differentiate this effect from that attributed to vaccines.

    An antibiotic is not a vaccine.

    http://www.naturodoc.com/library/public_health/truth_re_smallpox_vaccine.htm

  56. #57 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ Mephisto 248
    I stand corrected on typhoid VAX.

  57. #58 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    @ AdamG
    Sorry, left out the word ‘measles.’ Thought it was clear, since that was the subject.

    But the study you cite is a Sanofi Pasteur, or Pharma, one, which I tend not to believe a word of. However the Conclusion is not particularly stellar, with no quantification in the Abstract on “lower” incidence.

  58. #59 AdamG
    August 5, 2015

    Hear those goalposts shifting? Here’s another one, cupcake:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25937449

    LSD at Nambassa really did a number on you huh?

  59. #60 herr doktor bimler
    August 5, 2015

    But the study you cite is a Sanofi Pasteur, or Pharma, one, which I tend not to believe a word of.

    Perhaps everyone’s time could be saved by providing a short list of sources which are acceptable.

  60. #61 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT: “The VAX was introduced in 1963, when measles incidence had dropped overall from 310 per 100k to somewhere between 245.4 and 135.1”

    So how exactly are those anywhere near 23.2 per 100K?

    Let’s look at those particular numbers in context:

    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9

    Yes, measles is cyclical. During the entire twentieth century, which decade did measles incidence fall 90% and never go any higher again? I don’t see it, especially before 1960s. Point it out to us.

    Then tell us with PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that it would have happened with the introduction of vaccines. Qualified means they have the relevant experience and education. So none written by lawyers, finance professors, journalist, Russian translators (Harris Coulter), computer scientists or public relations persons (Barbara Loe Fisher).

    “Your stipulation about no NVIC is utter bullsh*t, so I respond no further. Sayonara.”

    Coward.

  61. #62 Peter Tocci
    August 5, 2015

    @ Narad 253
    Well, I’d rather belabor it with a Rappoport than a moron like you, who can’t even read, like so many in this forum.

  62. #63 PeterT
    August 5, 2015

    Well, gang, it’s been fun, but I have no more time to ride on this merry-go-round. You can all get back to scratching each others arses with no interruption. Oh, wait a minute – you never stopped 🙂
    Bye bye.

  63. #64 AdamG
    August 5, 2015

    And there he goes right back Down Under, right as the actual evidence comes out. Stick the flounce.

  64. #65 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT:

    Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines.

    There IS a vaccine against tuberculosis, you champion ignoramus. It’s called B.C.G and I have a scar on my right arm just below my shoulder from when I received it.

  65. #66 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 5, 2015

    Please also refer to the Perth Group on HIV/AIDS.

    And the Perth Group’s research is what, exactly?

    I didn’t say “a” lie told as gospel, but generic LIE

    Ah, I failed to notice you didn’t have the article before “LIE” (is that an acronym for something?). It would have been a clearer statement if you’d said ““Medicine is the story of downright lies sold as gospel.” though I suppose once explained your version has a certain colloquial sense to it.

    In re ’30 years of research…’ If it gets off on the wrong foot, it can continue that way.

    Possibly, but unlikely given the number of people – including the ones you mention – who continue to insist that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS. Presumably some of them could get a country such as South Africa to fund research to test their ideas.

  66. #67 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    And just like Brave Sir Robin, PeterT has bravely run away.

  67. #68 shay
    August 5, 2015

    Darn. I was wondering how many people died of smallpox last year. I guess now I’ll never get my answer.

  68. #69 MI Dawn
    August 5, 2015

    It’s quite amazing how PeterT managed to answer most of my statement and STILL missed the question about smallpox. Nor did he answer about the Philippines question. Shocking!

  69. #70 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 5, 2015

    Getting back to PeterT’s question about why calling something a conspiracy theory is a bad thing (since we know that conspiracies do exist), let’s look at his comments on AIDS and HIV.

    Based on what he said:
    – Some researchers published papers that no less than 3 government panels called “junk”.
    – The makers* of an obscure drug named AZT destined for the dustbin saw an opportunity to profit and seized it.
    – They started a shadowy cabal** to get widespread acceptance of the HIV = AIDS concept so their drug would be approved and demanded for the cure.
    – The Cabal put its tendrils*** into all the governments, science funding sources, and scientific journals around the world.
    – Anyone who goes against the new orthodoxy gets their funding cut of**** and is called a crank because of The Cabal’s shady machinations.
    – Now the concept of HIV causing AIDS can not be challenged – not even questioned*****

    Sure. Makes sense to me.

    * Burroughs-Wellcome Company
    ** Possibly in the inky shadows.
    *** Octopoid overlords? What will Lord D. ever think?
    **** The unkindest cut of all.
    ***** Ugarte, Casablanca, 1942

  70. #71 doug
    August 5, 2015

    shay, probably thousands – it’s just been renamed to hide the truth

    Dolts like PT invariably ignore the widespread and successful use of vaccines in beasts other than humans. While animal health care has benefited from many of the same advances as human health care (a small justice), it is pretty hard to make much of a case for improved sanitation across the board – in the case of “livestock” the opposite is often true. I really doubt that hoof washing or improved sewerage systems had much to do with the elimination of Rinderpest.

    The oral rabies vaccine used for wildlife and feral dogs has been quite successful. But maybe foxes, raccoons and the dogs got on the tea tree oil paw sanitizer bandwagon just about the time the vaccine was being introduced. Or someone is slipping them liposomal vitamin C or colloidal silver.

  71. #72 LW
    August 5, 2015

    PeterT #205:

    Thus, there could be no credible science in the development of an invasive procedure that replaced variolation (which actually makes more sense than the needle).

    Variolation wasn’t invasive?  PeterT thinks variolation was better than vaccination?  *boggle*

    Each individual’s community of gut microbes is unique and profoundly sensitive to environmental conditions, beginning at birth.

    Unique and profoundly sensitive to environmental conditions. So, um, the only way to be healthy is to find an environment that brings my unique gut microbes to perfection, and then stay in exactly that environment, without any alteration, forever. Good plan. Very practical.

    #245

    Typhoid, TB, scarlet fever – no vaccines.

    Going through my grandmother’s papers, I happened across my mother’s certificate proving she had been immunized against typhoid — in the 40s.

    After all, how much Black Plague has there been since the Middle Ages, without a vaccine till about 2008.

    Ah, interesting question. If diseases aren’t caused by germs, why did the environments of a third to a half of the population of Europe suddenly change so that they developed certain suites of symptoms from which they died? And why is it that the changes in environments progressed across the continent exactly as if by contagion?

    As to why the plague went away … it didn’t. There were outbreaks — there are still outbreaks. Ground-dwelling rodents in the United States can carry plague, though oddly enough there was a time when they didn’t … I don’t know how PeterT can explain that. Anyway, there are two reasons plague isn’t a big problem these: we have lots better houses than people in the Middle Ages and therefore don’t live cheek-by-jowl with rats, and plague responds to antibiotics. Which is strange if it isn’t caused by bacteria.   

  72. #73 herr doktor bimler
    August 5, 2015

    I happened across my mother’s certificate proving she had been immunized against typhoid — in the 40s

    Typhoid vaccination was used in the Boer War, and had become standard for British and US troops well before WW1, with the result

    that for the first time, casualties due to combat exceeded those from disease.

  73. #74 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    hdb: “Typhoid vaccination was used in the Boer War, and had become standard for British and US troops well before WW1, with the result”

    And is still being used, as these troops (and their dependents) often get stationed in places with less than adequate water and sewage treatment. As an Army brat I have been vaccinated for typhoid more than once.

    The CDC has a page on it:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/typhoid/

  74. #75 herr doktor bimler
    August 5, 2015

    As an Army brat I have been vaccinated for typhoid more than once.

    Part of my childhood education included exposure to old ‘Punch’ cartoons from the 1940s, from which I learned (inter alia) that the typhoid inoculations were the ones associated with the sorest arms afterwards.

  75. #76 herr doktor bimler
    August 5, 2015

    Peter Tocci

    Peter Tocci a.k.a. Gemini Press, scourge of the Elite Agenda? Peter Rocci of the Yurko Project? Truly we have been honoured; demigods walk among us.

    Incidentally, it appears that “climate change” is a conspiracy, using CIA weather manipulation to impose carbon taxes.

    He’s also trying to warn everyone about the smart-meter EMF-smog menace.

  76. #77 Narad
    August 5, 2015

    Peter Tocci a.k.a. Gemini Press, scourge of the Elite Agenda?

    It’s cute that he blew it right before the second flounce.

    Your first link’s broken, though.

  77. #78 Chris
    August 5, 2015

    I see he does not so well when he is not in an echo chamber. He must hate being questioned.

  78. #79 herr doktor bimler
    August 6, 2015

    It’s cute that he blew it right before the second flounce.

    I imagine that Peter Tocci realised belatedly that he had doxxed himself, and decided at that point that (discretion) > (valor / 2)

    Your first link’s broken, though.

    Whoops. Search for “Peter Tocci” + CIA + “weather manipulation” and it will narrow things down a little bit.

  79. #80 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    August 6, 2015

    @Mephistopheles O’Brien, i have to take you to task.

    Possibly, but unlikely given the number of people – including the ones you mention – who continue to insist that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS. Presumably some of them could get a country such as South Africa to fund research to test their ideas.

    You wouldn’t. Thabo Mbeki, our smart but very foolish former president, was forced to resign in 2008. The people who pushed him out fortunately don’t hold his deranged views on AIDS. AIDS Denialists are about as welcome in South Africa now as neo-nazis.

  80. #81 sadmar
    NoCal
    August 6, 2015

    Climate Change CT + Smart Meter CT?

    Maybe PeterT and Eric H are a tag team. An imagined web version of pro wrestling’s ‘Ministry of Darkness’ (starring The Undertaker, managed by Paul Bearer).

    The minions came to kid ass and chew trolls. Unlike bubllegum, the supply of trolls never runs out. Gosh, you guys jaws must be sore! Maybe you should try bubblegum as an aternative. Blow into it hard enough, and it actually pops eventually.

  81. […] The reasons for Posey’s specific interest in this issue are murky. David Gorski, who blogs at Respectful Insolence, suggests: […]

  82. #83 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 7, 2015

    @Julian Frost

    i have to take you to task

    I should simply admit that my knowledge of South African attitudes and government policies are clearly out of date and apologize for giving offense. However, I have thought a clever out:

    I intended to use a speculative form, as in “Presumably some of them could have gotten a country such as South Africa to fund research to test their ideas.”

    I wish I’d said “a country like South Africa” instead, as then I could say “Not South Africa itself, just a country like it.” But I didn’t.

  83. #84 Brooke
    August 9, 2015

    Thank you Peter, you were right to move on. Ironically (as it seems to create so much frustration here), it doesn’t matter how much logic and science is presented. When someone has chosen to egotistically identify with a stance, it appears he or she can no longer discern information. It is true of both “sides”. I personally wish there was a site that actually addressed the reality surrounding the topic of standardized and mandated vaccination, which is the actual issue, instead of the propagated insanity of the “pro and anti movements” over and over again ad nauseam.

  84. #85 LIz Ditz
    Great State of California
    August 21, 2015

    Age of Autism points out it has been a year since the Great CDC Whistleblower (manufactroversy) broke and ….. nothing has happened.

    Here’s Tanner’s Dad (Timothy Welsh) call to action to get things done:

    https://animoto.com/play/0oPb6n6EGewpdFhWHzDviQ

  85. #86 LIz Ditz
    Great State of California
    August 21, 2015

    And here’s the “B1less” website… again with the calls to action (or not). How effective do you find these strategies?

    http://votenosb277.org/VoteNOsb277.org/b1less.com.html

  86. #87 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 21, 2015

    Is “b1less” pronounced “boneless”? Just curious.

  87. #88 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    August 21, 2015

    I think it’s Be One Less MOB. As in one less “vaccine damaged” person.

  88. #89 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    August 21, 2015

    @Science Mom – Thanks for straightening me out.

  89. #90 Denice Walter
    August 21, 2015

    We learn at AoA, that Ginger Taylor is initiating a Thunderclap via Twitter- I guess the Storm didn’t produce.

  90. #91 shay
    August 21, 2015

    I think that it would only be polite for the crew here at RI to give Ginger the clap she so richly deserves.

  91. #92 shay
    August 21, 2015

    That’s what I get for being clever — should have read

    “…figure out a way to give Ginger the clap she so richly deserves.”

  92. #93 JP
    August 21, 2015

    Sorry, can’t, I’m busy tonight.

  93. […] a year ago. Most recently, I summarized the whole situation when Rep. Bill Posey (R-Florida) got up on the House floor to demand an investigation into the “scandal” and then again when the announcement was […]

  94. […] hashtag “inspired” by the “CDC whistleblower” William W. Thompson’s alleged statement quoted by Rep. Bill Posey (R-Florida) that CDC investigators had disposed of a whole lot of original research paperwork and […]

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.