One of the oldest antivaccine tropes that first encountered is one that I like to call the “toxins gambit.” Basically, this is an antivaccine lie that portrays vaccines as being laden with all manner of “toxins” because they have—gasp!—chemicals with scary sounding names and even some chemicals that are toxic. The lie derives from the the famous adage that the “dose makes the poison.” For instance, it’s well known that there are traces of formaldehyde in some vaccines left over from the production process. Sounds scary, right? Certainly our old buddy the antivaccine-sympathetic pediatrician Dr. Jay Gordon thought so seven years ago.

Unfortunately, since then the toxins gambit has truly been the antivaccine lie that won’t die, a veritable Whac-A-Mole of misinformation such that, as soon as skeptics and pro-science vaccine advocates whack down one “toxins”-related lie about vaccines, another one pops up to take its place who knows where. Not surprisingly, Jenny McCarthy is also a fan.

It’s actually been a while since I’ve come across the toxins gambit in its purest form, so much so that I had started to think that maybe—just maybe—antivaccine activists had finally figured out just how utterly scientifically ignorant and intellectually bankrupt that gambit is. Of course, even at the time, I suspected that I was engaging in a bit of wishful thinking not unlike that of sane Americans who thought that somehow enough electors in the Electoral College would refuse to vote for Donald Trump and deny him the Presidency. I now know that it was, given that I found what has to be one of the purest, most idiotic distillations of the toxins gambit published on the website of that alt right rising star and all purpose wingnut Mike Adams. It wasn’t written by Mike Adams, but one of his minions, S.D. Wells (who, I’ve long suspected, is a pseudonym for Adams himself given that I’ve never been able to find anything out about him). Oh, wait. I guess not. He doesn’t sound like Adams.

Wells does, of course, belong on NaturalNews.com, given how he produces posts like The 7 most dangerous vaccines injected into humans and exactly why they cause more harm than good. If we’ve encountered the toxins gambit on steroids before, Wells provides us with the toxins gambit on steroids, methamphetamine, and PCP. To give you an idea of the black hole-density stupid being laid down by Wells, just check out this paragraph:

Yet, what if you found out today that the worst odds you or your children have of being infected with disease, disorder, and deformity exist in getting injected repeatedly with neurotoxins, genetically modified bacteria, live experimental strains of multiple viruses and pesticides? Consider this: not one single vaccine ever produced that is recommended by the CDC today has ever been proven safe or effective. Why? They dont have to prove it. All they have to do is scare the living hell out of everyone using propaganda, and its worked for 75 years.

It’s as though Wells lives in an alternate reality where all the science, clinical trials, and epidemiological studies showing that vaccines are indeed safe and effective was never done. Or perhaps we live in George Orwell’s fictional world of Oceania in which, as alliances shift between the three superpowers of the era, inconvenient newspapers, magazines, photographs, and transcripts are disposed of in favor of new versions revised to be congruent with what the powers that be want. Only in this case, it’s the memory holing of science by antivaccine ideologues, who can’t bear to admit that vaccines actually work and are incredibly safe. In this case, any study that shows vaccines are safe and effective gets memory holed (metaphorically speaking). It’s as though the studies were never done.

Fortunately, the scientific literature never forgets (or at least rarely forgets), which makes howlers like this Wells’ article all the more amusing. In particular, I was amused at the utter predictability of Wells’ first choice for the most deadly vaccine. Can you guess what it is? I bet that regular readers can. Yes, it’s Gardasil:

Forget for a moment the fact that many girls who get the HPV vaccine beginning at age 9 for a sexually transmitted disease (diseases they don’t have) go into immediate anaphylactic shock and some into comas and die, and let’s just talk about the insane boatload of chemicals the manufacturers put in this concoction that belong nowhere in medicine, ever, especially that which is injected directly into muscle tissue and that which can penetrate the blood/brain barrier. Plus, remember to triple the amounts of these carcinogenic, dangerous, ludicrous chemical ingredients of Gardasil, because there are 3 of these toxic jabs required.

Um. No. There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock, become comatose, and then die. There are, in fact, multiple very large studies showing that Gardasil is safe. For example, there was a study of 189,000 young females who received the vaccine that concluded that the HPV vaccine was only associated with same-day syncope (that’s fainting to lay people) and skin infections in the two weeks after vaccination. The authors concluded that, “this study did not detect evidence of new safety concerns among females 9 to 26 years of age secondary to vaccination with HPV4.” They also noted regarding conditions for which an elevated odds ratio was noted that medical record review “revealed that most diagnoses were present before vaccination or diagnostic workups were initiated at the vaccine visit.” I can’t help but note here that pretty much any pediatrician or nurse who deals with adolescents knows that adolescent girls are prone to vasovagal reactions after any injection, blood draw, or needlestick. It’s why they’re made to wait after a vaccination or blood draw, to make sure they don’t faint. Then, of course, An even larger study of a million girls in Denmark published in BMJ found “no evidence supporting associations between exposure to qHPV vaccine and autoimmune, neurological, and venous thromboembolic adverse events. Although associations for three autoimmune events were initially observed, on further assessment these were weak and not temporally related to vaccine exposure. Furthermore, the findings need to be interpreted considering the multiple outcomes assessed.” In other words, same as it ever was. There are more studies like this where this came from.

But what about those evil toxins? Oh, yes, here they are:

First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach? Is it coincidence that the side effects listed and reported with the Gardasil vaccine match those of sodium borate poisoning? No, it’s not a coincidence. Did you know that anything imported into the European Union that contains borax must carry a warning label stating, “May damage fertility” and “May damage the unborn child.” This is what America “recommends” for preteen and teenage girls who are just reaching the age of fertility. Unbelievable!

Then, Gardasil HPV contains aluminum at 225mcg, which causes nerve cell death and helps the vaccine chemicals enter the brain. Let’s not forget that Gardasil HPV contains polysorbate 80 at 50mcg. Polysorbate 80 is used as an emulsifier in foods, but when injected into animals (such as humans), causes rapid, unnatural growth of reproductive organs, causing sterility. This is population control through vaccines, just as Bill Gates once said at a TED conference would be ideal for reducing the world’s population by a few billion. Polysorbate 80 is what causes the anaphylactic shock and also causes cancer and birth defects, while we’re on that topic. Sorry, but there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride at nearly 10mcg.

Sodium chloride? 10 μg? I half think that Wells is trolling Adams’ readers. Can he really be that stupid and ignorant? We’re talking about friggin’ table salt! And 10 μg? The American Heart Association recommends no more than 2,400 mg of sodium per day, with an ideal limit of no more than 1,500 mg a day. Let’s use the lower number. 1 mg = 1,000 μg. Basically, Wells is saying that an amount of salt 150,000 times less than the AHA recommendation for maximum intake of salt in a day is harmful. Let’s look at it another way. Consider a 50 kg adult (a lightweight). Such an adult will have roughly 200 g of sodium chloride in his or her body. That’s 200,000 mg or 200,000,000. Getting the idea? That’s 20 million times more than the 10 μg Wells tried to scare his audience with, almost as an aside. No wonder Wells said “there’s not enough time to talk about the sodium chloride.” That’s basically his way of saying to his readers, “You’re too stupid to realize that this is an inconsequential amount of sodium.

The only reason I spend to much time on Wells’ offhanded remark about sodium chloride is to illustrate the depths of ignorance plumbed by the toxins gambit. It makes putting the other fear mongering into context a bit easier. In fact, if you doubt how idiotic Wells, is, get a load of this:

Sodium chloride raises blood pressure and inhibits muscle contraction and growth.

Bwahahahaha! As though 10 μg of sodium chloride could do that. OK, it might do it to a few cells immediately surrounding the intramuscular injection site, but other than that, forget it.

For instance, I’ve written about Polysorbate 80 several times before and the myth that it causes premature ovarian failure based on rodent studies that used massive quantities of the compound. then, of course, there’s the dreaded aluminum, which has become the new mercury, even though it has a long history of safety.

But what about the dreaded borate? Again, let the dose make the poison, and 35 μg is not dangerous. Basically, Wells is doing the same thing that all antivaccine ideologues do when they invoke the toxins gambit. He’s frightening people with horrible effects that require doses much, much higher than what is in a vaccine.

The hilarity continues with Wells describing the ingredients of the MMR:

Under Appendix B, listed on the CDC website, you can find the ingredients for the MMR (MMR-II), the combination vaccines that contain recombinant human albumin, sorbitol, hydrolized gelatin, chick (egg) embryo cell culture, human diploid lung fibroblasts, and fetal bovine serum, among other certain preservatives and chemical adjuvants. In the “ProQuad” version, or MMRV (w/vericella for chicken pox), they’ve added monosodium L-glutamate, neomycin, and MRC-5 cells. And although measles is a respiratory disease accompanied by an uncomfortable rash and fever illness that anyone with a normal immune system will likely survive, the media scares the public into getting jabbed with neurotoxins.

It’s as though Wells thinks that the cells used to grow the virus are left in the vaccine! That would certainly be very sloppy. He also seems to think that vaccine manufacturers just “add” MRC-5 cells for no apparent reason when in fact that’s the cell line used to grow the virus, after which the cells are discarded. As for the rest, it all sounds scary, but in the amounts present in vaccines, these substances are a whole lot of nothing.

I think I’ll finish with what is probably the most ridiculous part of Wells’ little screed. There were so many ridiculous parts that it was hard to choose, and some of you might disagree, but this is my choice and I’m sticking too it:

Human albumin is the protein portion of blood from pooled human venous plasma and when injected causes fever, chills, hives, rash, headache, nausea, breathing difficulty, and rapid heart rate. Injecting “pooled blood” can result in a loss of body cell mass and cause immunodeficiency virus infection, or contain SV40, AIDS, cancer or Hepatitis B from drug addicts. Still want that MMR vaccine? Didn’t think so.

It’s hard for me not to believe that Wells doesn’t have utter contempt for his readers to have written something this mind-numbingly silly. Either that, or Wells himself is really, really ignorant. I suppose that it could be a combination of both. Either way, we’re not talking about pooled human venous plasma or pooled blood. Did Wells forget that he himself noted that this is recombinant human albumin. It’s not from human blood or plasma. It’s made in bacteria using recombinant DNA. There’s no chance of its containing AIDS, SV40, or hepatitis B from drug addicts.

I know I haven’t said this in a long time, but, damn, the stupid, it burns. Wells’ blather is even dumber than previous iterations of the toxins gambit that I’ve seen—and more despicable.

Comments

  1. #1 Yerushalmi
    Jerusalem, Israel
    December 21, 2016

    “Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches. Is your little girl a cockroach?”

    No, and I’m not trying to kill her either.

  2. #2 herr doktor bimler
    December 21, 2016

    First we have sodium borate … this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid

    Is it even legal to be this stupid?

  3. #3 Dorit Reiss
    December 21, 2016

    I’d go with himself really ignorant. I really do think many of these people are pretty sincere in their horror from vaccines. Be nice and don’t deconstruct the ingredients in organic foods for them, or – unless they really believe as a tenant that the difference between injection and ingestion is the end-all, and they might, they will starve to death.

    And the real problem is that most readers want to believe this. They won’t look past the scary chemical names and scary claims.

  4. #4 Travis
    December 21, 2016

    I was curious what readers at NaturalNews.com thought about the salt silliness, and while it was brought up, I had to roll my eyes at one of the replies to that commenter:

    One is shot straight into your bloodstream bypassing all your bodies natural defense mechanisms the other is run through your digestive system, big difference.

    This seems to be the stock answer when it comes to anything found naturally in the body that is also in vaccines, but they want to make it scary, such as squalene or Al. But I am really curious what they think the big difference is, do they think the salt magically changes when it goes through the digestive system? What natural defences do they think that salt is bypassing? It is mind boggling.

  5. #5 Anonymous Pseudonym
    In Your Head
    December 21, 2016

    I fear that the only way the anti-vaccine movement is going to join the rest of the world in modern times is if there is a massive and deadly epidemic in the western world. Maybe a re-run of the 1918 Influenza pandemic, or maybe a mutated polio strain. Even then, they would probably push the blame to someone else. The government, CDC, political party opposed to their beliefs, big Pharma, etc. Maybe these health-warriors should be given a free trip to one of those wonderful places with minimal or no vaccinations so they can enjoy the bliss of a life free of vaccine-fears. I’m sure the never-ending stream of dead children will eventually wake them the f*ck up. The big question is; How many dead children from vaccine preventable diseases will it take to wake up each moron. But remember the toxins in the vaccines are far deadlier then the disease. IDIOTS.

  6. #6 Chris Hickie
    December 21, 2016

    It almost seemed like Wells was going to give it all up and land in the dihydrogen monoxide bucket which is mostly what makes up vaccines, and us. Almost.

  7. #7 doug
    December 21, 2016

    Orac’s clearly just trying to cover for things he did back in his ER days.
    I’ll bet quantities of quatloos that time after time he ordered that patients be given whole litres of IV “normal” (yeah, sure, “normal” – they do it so often they think it’s normal) saline, which has NINE THOUSAND micrograms of sodium chloride PER MILLILITRE! Or maybe he ordered lactated Ringer’s. It’s only got 600 µg/mL of sodium chloride, but it’s also got 300 µg/mL of potassium chloride, and that stuff causes horrible pain when injected IV and it’ll stop a beating heart! Then there’s the calcium chloride, at 200 µg/mL – they put that on roads to melt ice. He probably even ordered plasma products that had been deliberately treated with polysorbate 80, with the claim that the treatment killed viruses in the plasma.

    I have much difficulty trying to tell if people like Alex Jones and Wells really are profoundly ignorant or just lying liars who will write or say anything to keep their rubes gulled and coming back for more. I won’t mention by name the Cheetos-colored real estate salesman, though we know for certain he is both ignorant and a liar.

    I need another cup of tea. I don’t drink coffee – no one has ever proven that gak is safe to drink!

  8. #8 Dangerous Bacon
    December 21, 2016

    This may be the first time I’ve seen a microgram dosage of sodium chloride hyped as a vaccine Toxin. The previous winner was in an Amazon book review by a self-identified nurse who warned readers that vaccines could contain dextrose. Truly nasty stuff.

    I like the image accompanying this article, complete with U.N.-style logo (fits nicely into what the Health Ninny calls “the globalist war against humanity). I didn’t know that “nerve disease” came in liquid form, which sounds handy.

  9. #9 Eric Lund
    December 21, 2016

    First we have sodium borate at 35mcg. Also known as “borax,” this is the main poisonous ingredient in boric acid that’s used to kill cockroaches.

    Aside from the issues with this statement that other commenters have noted, there is the not-so-small matter that effects differ from species to species. Every few years I need to put out borax bait traps to deal with ants invading my kitchen. Borax is quite toxic to ants–the way it works is that the workers take it back and feed it to the queen, who dies as a result. There is a reason I use borax rather than other ant poisons: at least in the doses required to deal with ants, borax is not toxic to humans, whereas many other ant poisons are, so borax can be safely used in a kitchen.

    Does this nincompoop ever eat chocolate? By his logic he shouldn’t, because the theobromine in chocolate is toxic to dogs. And obviously dogs are more like humans than ants or cockroaches are.

  10. #10 Zach
    United States
    December 21, 2016

    This lines up with my second favorite antivaccidiot trope: the “I want to be able to pronounce all the ingredients” line. Because vocabulary should determine the efficacy and safety of something. Virtually anything is toxic to humans in a large enough quantity, and significantly less than that is…gasp, not dangerous!

    Also should someone explain to NaturalNews consumers that salt being in your digestive tract doesn’t turn the salt into anything besides salt? If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

  11. #11 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    I didn’t know that “nerve disease” came in liquid form, which sounds handy.

    Back in the day, we called it VX

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

    Chemical, Biological and Radiological Warfare classes were fun. Scary, but fun.

  12. #12 Christine Rose
    December 21, 2016

    I want a giant sink full of nerve disease for Christmas, but I bet all I’ll get will be gift cards.

  13. #13 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 21, 2016

    “The Dread Ion Borate” ha a ring to it.

  14. #14 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 21, 2016

    If it broke down NaCl to just Na and Cl, then you may actually be in trouble!

    Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

  15. #15 Alokin
    December 21, 2016

    Over the last few days, I have been trading comments with Anthony Samsel on the subject of glyphosate in vaccines. A truly delusional person who sees nothing unethical in making claims and spreading fear without the data to back it up. Of course, he says he has the data, its just not published yet.
    [img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/gct2m0qds1fx0md/Samsel%2020161221.jpg?dl=0[/image]

  16. #16 Murmur
    UK-ia
    December 21, 2016

    doug @ 7

    Beat me to it on the saline drip: I must be some kinda superhuman or just immune ‘cos I didn’t get killed to death by saline drips which those ebil medics had me on one time. And nor did The Strange Woman I Live With…

    And with the coffee: this household will keep up its sterling work on your behalf, nobly putting ourselves at any potential risk to demonstrate that coffee is definitely safe to drink. You can thank me later.

  17. #17 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 21, 2016

    Orac writes,

    Sodium chloride?

    MJD says,

    Let’s ask a few questions:

    1) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein therein?

    2) Can 10 mcg of sodium chloride in a vaccine denature a protein-contaminant therein?

    3) Can a denatured protein-contaminant in a vaccine provide increased antigenic determinants?

    4) Can an antigenic determinant in a protein-contaminated vaccine cause a contraindication?

    The answer to all of these questions is an unequivocal “YES”

    Therefore, all efforts should be made to manufacture vaccines free of certain allergens that we have discussed in great detail. 🙁

    .

  18. #18 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    Why is the answer to those questions, “yes?”

  19. #19 palindrom
    December 21, 2016

    Mephistopheles @14 — Well, the glass of water breaks the salt down into Na+ and Cl-, actually. I’m no chemist, but my understanding is that as neutral atoms, they’re pretty nasty.

  20. #20 Eric Lund
    December 21, 2016

    Actually, a glass of water does that quite handily.

    This is where the distinction between the ions Na+ and Cl-, as opposed to elemental Na and Cl_2, becomes important. The latter are quite dangerous. Cl_2 is highly toxic. The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don’t know this from firsthand experience, but it’s likely I know someone who does).

    Luckily, it is quite difficult to convert the ionic forms to the elemental forms, since they have the same electron structure as the neighboring noble gases (Ne and Ar). The opposite direction is quite easy to achieve, which is why the elemental forms are so reactive.

  21. #21 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 21, 2016

    Lawrence asks (#17),

    Why is the answer to those questions, “yes?” (see post #16)

    MJD says,

    Even if the answer was “maybe” vaccine safety may be unequivocally compromised.

  22. #22 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    Yet you provide nothing to support either contention….

  23. #23 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

    Orac:
    “There is no evidence that Gardasil is causing many girls to go into anaphylactic shock,…”

    Go to:
    https://wonder.cdc.gov/vaers.html
    Select HPV4, anaphylactic reaction, anaphylactic shock, female and it return 60 cases.

  24. #24 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    You really don’t understand what VAERS reports are, do you?

  25. #25 Narad
    December 21, 2016

    Unscientific claims are made by BOTH sides.

    Like with dental floss, Vinu? You’ve got to stay on that travesty.

  26. #26 Reality
    December 21, 2016

    @#16 MJD –
    You tell us.

    Human blood has a normal sodium concentration of ~140 meq/L
    I’ll let you calculate the concentration of NaCl in blood and compare it to the concentration in the vaccine.
    Suffice to say the NaCl content of 0.50 ml of each solution is:
    Blood – 4091 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.
    Vaccine – 10 µg NaCl per 0.5 ml.

    I think the body can equalize the low NaCl concentration in the 0.50 ml vaccine without any systemic damage.
    It may take a few seconds, but it will happen.
    No “denatured” proteins or “increased antigenic determinants” or epigenetic mutations or bursting cells for your fantasy.

  27. #27 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 21, 2016

    Lawrence writes (#21),

    Yet you provide nothing to support either contention….

    MJD says,

    Is there anyone else who doesn’t believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?

    @Orac,

    Speak or forever hold your piece.

  28. #28 vinu arumugham
    United States
    December 21, 2016

    Lawrence #23,

    “You really don’t understand what VAERS reports are, do you?”

    Why don’t you please explain it to us?

    • #29 Dorit Reiss
      December 21, 2016

      Re VAERS reports – here is a helpful primer from our friend Todd. http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/11/vaers-few-things-we-need-to-discuss.html

      Basically, VAERS reports don’t show causation.

      • #30 vinu arumugham
        December 21, 2016

        Doctors are very imaginative in dismissing vaccine adverse events. But anaphylaxis proves to be tough one.

        Anaphylaxis is a Type I immediate hypersensitivity reaction that could happen within minutes of allergen exposure.
        A healthy kid walks in, gets a vaccine shot and immediately goes into anaphylaxis. What are you going to blame it on? What he ate for dinner 3 days ago?

        A VAERS anaphylaxis report is extremely unlikely to be caused by anything other than the vaccine.

  29. #31 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    Dorit Reiss #3,
    “difference between injection and ingestion”

    As other have pointed out, for salt there is no difference.
    But for proteins, it makes a huge difference.

    https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1913/richet-lecture.html

    “We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices. Every time alien protein penetrates by effraction, the organism suffers and becomes resistant. This resistance lies in increased sensitivity, a sort of revolt against the second parenteral injection which would be fatal. At the first injection, the organism was taken by surprise and did not resist. At the second injection, the organism mans its defences and answers by the anaphylactic shock.”

    Even the FDA is too stupid to understand this concept, from a hundred years ago.

    http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

    “Why are sugars, amino acids, and proteins added to some vaccines?
    These substances may be added as stabilizers. They help protect the vaccine from adverse conditions such as the freeze-drying process, for those vaccines that are freeze dried. Stabilizers added to vaccines include: sugars such as sucrose and lactose, amino acids such as glycine or the monosodium salt of glutamic acid and proteins such as human serum albumin or gelatin. Sugars, amino acids and proteins are not unique to vaccines and are encountered in everyday life in the diet and are components that are in the body naturally.”

    So food protein contaminated vaccines are causing the food allergy epidemic.
    http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-misconduct-by-nam-committee-on-food-allergy/

    • #32 Dorit Reiss
      December 21, 2016

      I understand that you think so. But the FDA disagrees, vaccine experts and immunologists disagree, and large scale studies found no link between vaccines and food allergies. I’m going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one.

      • #33 vinu arumugham
        United States
        December 21, 2016

        “I’m going with the experts and the abundant epidemiological data on this one.”

        In a well controlled experiment, with just two patients, it was IMMEDIATELY clear that food proteins in the vaccine boosted allergy. This demonstrates that the epidemiological studies and the vaccine “surveillance systems” are a joke.

        IgE levels were declining until just before vaccination and then spiked after the vaccines.
        https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

  30. #34 Anonymous Pseudonym
    In Your Head
    December 21, 2016

    @26 : At the risk of feeding a moron/troll. You were asked to provide any evidence for your assertions at 16, yet you do not. Then you tell Orac to put up or shut up? Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile. Choose one or the other only.

  31. #35 Blues
    December 21, 2016

    He’d have a fit if he knew Boric Acid was an essential part of running some nuclear reactors (PWRs) for its neutron absorbing characteristic.

  32. #36 Rich Woods
    December 21, 2016

    @vinu #23:

    Type in ‘zombie’ as the search term and it returns considerably more than 60 cases. Oh no! But that still doesn’t tell us much that is useful.

    Why don’t you please explain it to us?

    Because most people here already know. Use the search box at the top right of the page and you too may join the enlightened…

  33. #37 doug
    December 21, 2016

    Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

    If Reality hasn’t already set in – The medium for culture of mammalian cells used in vaccine virus production contain about 3000 micrograms per half millilitre of sodium chloride. Many vaccines are made up to be approximately isotonic with sodium chloride approaching a concentration of 4500 µg/0.5 mL.

    Speak or forever hold your piece.

    Lordy. Talk about asking for a close encounter with teh ban hammer … or a poleaxe.

  34. #38 doug
    December 21, 2016

    I see the other idiot is harping on the hundred year old paper again, ignoring the fact that there has been substantial much more recent research clearly demonstrating that small amounts of ingested proteins can be found in blood and even urine.

    • #39 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      When you ingest proteins, you develop oral tolerance. So finding some ingested protein in the blood or urine does not change anything I am stating.
      Our children are INJECTED with vaccines containing numerous food proteins, long BEFORE they have ANY chance to INGEST and develop tolerance. Once allergic, they cannot ingest and develop tolerance. Now with more vaccines contaminated with food proteins subsequently injected, they BOOST the food allergy.

      https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

  35. #40 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    If he has to use a 100 year old paper to try to prove his contention, it explains a lot.

  36. #42 Denice Walter
    December 21, 2016

    Here in my neck of the ( non) woods, ‘nerve disease’ would most likely refer to a bright blue cocktail served at hipster bars**.

    ** and yes, we have loads of hipster bars.

  37. #43 Gilbert
    December 21, 2016

    Speak or forever hold your piece.

    But… we wouldn’t want him to shoot his foot off with it during pre-op/scrubs. Anyways, Orac doesn’t strike me as a second amendment kind of guy or cop.

  38. #44 Eric Lund
    December 21, 2016

    AP@32: My only disagreement with your post is that the choices you offer are not mutually exclusive.

  39. #45 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 21, 2016

    Anonymous Pseudonym writes (#32),

    Which are you, a vaccine damaged idiot or or a brain-damaged imbecile

    MJD says,

    Do you have data or a reference to quantify the prevalence of “a vaccine damaged idiot”?

    This may be the wrong insult to use if your one of Orac’s minions.

    @Dorit Reiss,(#31),

    Do you solemnly (swear/affirm) that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, (so help you God)?.

  40. #46 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    Dorit Reiss #31,

    “vaccine experts and immunologists disagree”

    Sorry, that is not correct.

    Please see:
    https://iom.nationalacademies.org/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

    “Adverse events on our list thought to be due to IgE-mediated
    hypersensitivity reactions

    Antigens in the vaccines that the committee is charged with reviewing do not typically elicit an immediate hypersensitivity reaction (e.g., hepatitis B surface antigen, toxoids, gelatin, ovalbumin, casamino acids).
    However, as will be discussed in subsequent chapters, the
    above-mentioned antigens do occasionally induce IgE-mediated sensitization in some individuals and subsequent hypersensitivity reactions, including anaphylaxis.”

  41. #47 Narad
    December 21, 2016

    @Orac,

    Speak or forever hold your piece.

    This is why you should try to find a pay-to-play journal that actually includes copy editing in its APC, MJD. The only one who clearly has his “piece” consistently in hand is to be found in your nearest mirror.

  42. #48 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    Dorit Reiss #31,
    “vaccine experts and immunologists disagree”

    Who are these vaccine experts and immunologists?
    Are they the same people who are clueless about why Flumist worked one year and failed miserably another year?

    I have an explanation of why Flumist failed and it has to do with vaccines causing food allergy.

    Long Term Persistence of IgE Anti-Influenza Virus Antibodies in Pediatric and Adult Serum Post Vaccination with Influenza Virus Vaccine
    http://www.medsci.org/v08p0239.htm

    When you receive Flumist the first time, you develop IgG (short term, primary protection against the flu) and IgE (long term allergy) to the influenza proteins.
    When you receive subsequent Flumist, you suffer a mild allergic reaction. Your IgE antibodies bind to the viruses and neutralizes them before they can infect you. So you don’t develop new IgG. Vaccine is ineffective. A CDC researcher thanked me for connecting food allergy and vaccine ineffectiveness and bringing it to their attention.

  43. #49 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 21, 2016

    @Narad (44),

    I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

    https://bioaccent.org/cancer-sciences/cancer-sciences25.pdf

    We live and learn…

    Thanks, though, for remembering the review.

    @Orac,

    I’m just adding clarity to Narad’s constructive criticism and this is not an attempt to over step my boundaries.

  44. #50 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    Talking about toxins …

    Food protein contaminated vaccines cause the development of food allergy. So, they turn food into a toxin for some people.

    http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/topic/35639-professional-misconduct-by-nam-committee-on-food-allergy/

    Now that vaccines have turned food into a toxin, the National Academy of Medicine is suggesting that we apply “methodologies of chemical toxicology” to food. The next time you order a burger, they will ask you if you want a Material Safety Data Sheet to go with it.

    https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-allergy-assessment-of

    Pg. 295

    “The FDA has used risk assessment principles of increasing sophistication for many years. Although the appropriateness of using these concepts in the setting of allergenic foods was questionable in the past, improved understanding of the mechanism for allergic reactions to food, together with
    emerging data from individuals with food allergy has led to the realization that the classical principles, terminology, and methodologies of chemical toxicology risk assessment can be applied to food allergens.”

    For the Food and Drug Administration, approving drugs that turn food into a toxin, must be a crowning achievement.

    Why did Orac leave these toxins out of the discussion?

  45. #51 Eric Lund
    December 21, 2016

    Speak or forever hold your piece.

    Are you sure you want Orac to do that? Michigan has a stand-your-ground law.

  46. #52 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Vinu @4: Uh, or you could be describing the well-documented phenomenon of original antigenic sin, where immunity specific to epitopes shared across multiple immunizations (vaccination or natural) is favored over novel epitopes, narrowing the immune response rather than broadening it. There’s an excellent explanation (with figure!) on page 453 of the 7th edition of Janeway’s Immunobiology.

    Which has everything to do with how the immune system works and as is it based on T-cells, is not related to food allergy.

    • #53 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      “original antigenic sin”

      Given that, does it make any sense to inject yeast (HepB vaccine) the day a baby is born? And then continue to inject HepB and yeast contaminated Prevnar 13 several times after that?

    • #54 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      “Vinu @4” not sure what that refers. Comment numbers don’t seem reliable.
      If you are talking about Flumist and the original antigenic sin, Flumist should have always been ineffective. Why would it work one year and fail the following years?

  47. #55 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Vinu @31: The statement ““We are so constituted that we can never receive other proteins into the blood than those that have been modified by digestive juices.” rather totally fails to take into account the all the other ways things get into the body beyond the digestive system.
    What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don’t die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it.
    And what about every injury to the skin that results in bleeding? Blood comes out and stuff, including proteins, goes in. What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock.
    And then if we even only consider human-caused insertion of material that bypasses the digestive system and goes into the bloodstream, what about the ancient practice of tattoo?

    Let’s try to be a little more restrained in our sweeping generalizations.

    • #56 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      “What about the bacteria that cross the mucus membranes? Bacteria are made of protein, but we don’t die the second time we get infected with a bacteria, we mount an immune response and kill it.”

      Dose makes the difference. If too many of those bacteria are released into the blood, you have septic shock, very similar to anaphylactic shock.

      Normal natural infection with those same bacteria, involve quantities of bacteria that do not cause anaphylaxis. Obviously, we have evolved to make that immune balance work.

  48. #57 Anonymous Pseudonym
    In Your Head
    December 21, 2016

    @42: Your posts in this thread give almost equal credence to either option. Positive evidence lies in your lack of evidence backed by solid assertions. As is the solid science referenced by the others in this thread showing the stupidity of your argument. But keep avoiding answering the question, that way the default is my choice of appellation most suited to you.

    It’s a shame that people think their ignorance and misinformation is the equal of scientific knowledge. This is why we can’t have nice things.

  49. #58 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    vinu @38: So, what vaccine administered before 6 months (the usual age to begin eating solid food) contains strawberry proteins? Or shellfish proteins?

  50. #59 herr doktor bimler
    December 21, 2016

    Making vaccines is not like making cheese.

    Dammit, there goes my “Oral vaccine administered as an artisanal fermented-milk-product” business plan.

  51. #60 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    JustaTech #54

    Nobody knows what are all the food proteins that contaminate vaccines.

    https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23658/finding-a-path-to-safety-in-food-allergy-assessment-of
    NAM report pg.241
    “Allergens in Vaccines, Medications, and Dietary Supplements

    Physicians and patients with food allergy must consider potential food allergen exposures in vaccines, medications, and dietary supplement products (e.g., vitamins, probiotics), which are not regulated by labelling laws.
    Also, excipients (i.e., substances added to medications to improve various characteristics) may be food or derived from foods (Kelso, 2014). These include milk proteins; soy derivatives; oils from sesame, peanut, fish or soy; and beef or fish gelatin. The medications involved include vaccines;
    anesthetics; and oral, topical, and injected medications. With perhaps the exception of gelatin, reactions appear to be rare overall, likely because little residual protein is included in the final preparation of these items. The specific risk for each medication is not known.
    Vaccines also may contain food allergens, such as egg protein or gelatin.”

  52. #61 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    JustaTech #54,
    And you have to consider cross reactions …

    Significant protein sequence alignment between peanut allergen epitopes and vaccine antigens
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/310021910_Significant_protein_sequence_alignment_between_peanut_allergen_epitopes_and_vaccine_antigens

  53. #62 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    Vaccines do not contain peanuts or peanut oil….jeez, will this just die!

    • #63 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      How do you know?

  54. #64 Craig Payne
    Box Hill
    December 21, 2016

    A little off topic – I am just back from the dentist where I had a local anesthetic. I am sure if I asked to look at the packaging insert I would be horrified to see what ingredients that are in the injectable vaccine are also in the local anesthetic. What do the ant-vaxers do when they need a local anesthetic? How do they rationalize that?

    • #65 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      Vaccines being injected numerous times, especially into babies, are on the top of the list. Local anesthetics should be cleaned up as well.

      • #66 Craig Payne
        Box Hill
        December 21, 2016

        what problems are local anesthetics causing?

  55. #67 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    They don’t – they ignore anything that doesn’t fit into their anti-vax narrative.

    • #68 Craig Payne
      Box Hill
      December 21, 2016

      That is what I assumed …. I don’t see many people waking up after a general anesthetic with the autisimz

  56. #69 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    “What about insect bites? Mosquitoes inject proteins directly into the bloodstream, but most people only have a very localized reaction, not total anaphylactic shock.”

    Again dose makes the poison.
    Food proteins are injected with aluminum salts as adjuvants. Aluminum salts are known to bias towards allergy. These food protein injections are repeated numerous times. Then we have exposures that are in food quantities which are way more than mosquito bite quantities.

  57. #70 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Vinu @52: “Original Antigenic sin” only occurs with repeated exposure to similar but slightly different sets of antigens, as one sees in the various strains of flu that circulate year-to-year. Therefore the vaccine works fine the first time, and it works fine the second time too, but rather than conditioning the immune system to new antigens from the new flu strain it reinforces the antigens that are the same as last year’s strain.

    I’ll again highly recommend Janeway’s Immunobiology as an excellent textbook.

    • #71 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 22, 2016

      More evidence supporting my Flumist failure explanation.

      Menactra has N meningitidis antigens conjugated to diphtheria toxoid (DT). So a diphtheria vaccine administered a month ahead of Menactra, interferes.

      The diphtheria antibodies neutralize the DT, affecting immunogenicity of Menactra.

      http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM131170.pdf

      “Administraton of Menactra one month after DAPTACEL has
      4 been shown to reduce meningococcal antibody responses to Menactra. ”

      “In a double-blind, randomized, controlled trial, 1021 participants aged 11 through 17 years received Td vaccine and Menactra concomitantly (N=509), or Td vaccine followed one month later by Menactra (N=512). Sera were obtained approximately 28 days after each respective vaccination. The proportions of participants with a 4-fold or greater increase in SBA-BR titer to meningococcal Serogroups C, Y and W-135 were higher when Menactra was given concomitantly with Td vaccine (86%-96%) than when Menactra was given one month following Td vaccine (65%-91%). “

  58. #72 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Vinu @65: Prove it. Show me how much mosquito anticoagulant is regurgitated into the bloodstream per bite, and the average number of bites per person per season, and then compare that to the current US childhood immunization schedule for a single year (to compare to the single season of bites).

    Yes, the dose makes the poison. But while I may have had 30 vaccinations by the time I was 18 I’d also had probably a million mosquito bites. So, math up.

    • #73 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      First, mosquito bites do not contain aluminum salts optimized to produce a strong immune response.

      Second, you should account for the ELICITATION dose.

      Then there is the matter of evolution. You have evolved through being bitten repeatedly by mosquitoes. If mosquitoes had injected egg proteins into mammals, throughout evolution, it would probably be safe to inject them using vaccines as well.

      A great example is bee stings. You don’t suffer too many bee stings in nature.
      If you become a beekeeper (evolution did not plan that), you get into trouble.
      Repeated bee stings (injecting bee venom proteins) causes IgE mediated sensitization to the bee venom proteins and the development of IgE mediated allergy to bee venom.
      Eich-Wanger C, Muller UR. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clin Exp Allergy. 1998;28(10):1292–8.

      An important consequence is that mosquito saliva protein is a good injectable protein for a vaccine, if you can manage to grow a bacteria in it.

  59. #74 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    That’s really not how this works – you need to provide proof that they do.

  60. #75 Lawrence
    December 21, 2016

    Great point about mosquito bites – at times, kids can get bitten dozens of times within a very short period of time….

  61. #76 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    If this was not about a life-threatening condition, it would be hilarious.

    http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2016/11/news_detail_002653.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1

    “Review started on certain injectable medicines to treat allergic reactions

    The PRAC started a review of certain medicines given by injection to treat severe, rapidly developing (acute) allergic reactions. The medicines involved contain the corticosteroid methylprednisolone as active ingredient. They also include as an additional ingredient lactose (milk sugar), which potentially contains traces of cows’ milk proteins that could affect treatment of acute reactions in the small number of
    highly sensitive patients allergic to these proteins.

    The review is triggered by reports of reactions to the medicines themselves in patients being treated for allergic conditions with these medicines who were also allergic to cows’ milk proteins.”

    “The review is triggered by reports of patients treated for allergic conditions with these medicines, who were also allergic to cows’ milk proteins. The medicine itself apparently caused an allergic reaction in these patients. In such circumstances, the reaction to the medicine may
    be mistaken for a worsening of the original condition, leading to additional doses of the medicine being given,” the EMA writes in a statement.

    First they give our kids life-threatening food allergies with dirty food protein contaminated vaccines. Then when they suffer an allergic reaction, the dirty allergy medication they use is contaminated with more food proteins that make the reaction worse?
    The truth can certainly be stranger than fiction …

    Time to reboot.

  62. #77 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 21, 2016

    Eric Lund –

    The main problem with elemental Na is high reactivity, especially in the presence of water (no, I don’t know this from firsthand experience, but it’s likely I know someone who does).

    I’ve seen the demo many times, and it’s quite nice. You can look one up on YouTube in the Periodic Table of Videos channel.

    I recall someone who attended a small engineering college you may be familiar with who took some metallic sodium – in his hand – to the banks of the river in order to impress a girl. Everything went OK until the oil which separated the sodium from his body moisture, er, stopped separating them.

  63. #78 Jay
    December 21, 2016

    @ Lawrence

    Careful mate, mosquito bites could herald the prevalence of Lawyers and Vampires…

  64. #79 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Oooh, I see. Now the claim is that all food allergies are caused by vaccines. That’s a bizarre interpretation of the hygiene hypothesis.
    Also pretty strongly lacking in evidence. Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination? Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine? If it is all vaccines why didn’t everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?
    And again, what about tattoos? The history of tattooing goes back thousands of years across diverse cultures all over the world. So why would vaccines cause allergies and tattoos not?

    • #80 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      Not sure if this was addressed to me …

      “Is vinu trying to say that there were no food allergies before vaccination?”
      They were rare.

      “Is it all vaccines or a specific vaccine?”
      All food protein contaminated vaccines AND all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins.

      “If it is all vaccines why didn’t everyone who got the smallpox vaccine die of an allergy?”
      No one is claiming that vaccines cause clinical allergy in EVERYONE who receives the vaccine. I have not studied the smallpox vaccine or its contaminants.

      I am not familiar with the proteins involved in tattoos.

  65. #81 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Jay, but vampires would be super helpful because they would have lived before vaccines and could tell the antivaxxers all about the epidemics!

  66. #82 Jay
    December 21, 2016

    MJD: “Is there anyone else who doesn’t believe sodium chloride can alter the tertiary structure of a protein in a aqueous medium?”

    Is there anybody commenting on this thread that doesn’t have salt and protein bumping in to each other in an aqueous medium? You really didn’t think that one through did you?

    MJD have you ever wondered that maybe Orac keeps you around for the damage you cause to your own side?

  67. #83 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    All the way back to the original post – while I personally am thrilled at how the price of recombinate HSA (human serum albumin) has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff, to imply that no one screens it for viruses like HIV is ludicrous. (Also, this Wells is a terrible writer.)

  68. #84 Jay
    December 21, 2016

    Justatech, who are you fooling with these epidemic hoaxes? Everyone knows there where no epidemics, because everyone in the past ate organic and there were no toxins or GMOs.

    Heck there was no reason for vaccines, so they were invented to cause diseases, so doctors could make a living, FACT!

  69. #85 Jay
    December 21, 2016

    Damn, have to go to bed, just when I was starting to have fun.

    Actually last but not least, Vinu, why not do some research and come up with a graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?

    Start with Smallpox and the resulting beef allergies 😉

  70. #86 rs
    December 21, 2016

    This is where the Skeptic’s Dictionary comes in handy.

    fact
    1. fact, n. A true statement about the world.
    2. FACT! n. Not a fact

    vinu
    1. vinu, n. See FACT!

  71. #87 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Jay: Exactly! And all those children loved working in the cotton mills and coal mines! They were happy working 14 hours a day and getting squashed to death before they turned 18!
    The London fogs of the 1950’s were a cause for celebration!

  72. #88 Jay
    December 21, 2016

    “has come down so we can stop using the human derived stuff”

    True, it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people’s concerns.

    • #89 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      “it also shows that vaccine manufacturers care about people’s concerns.”

      No, they don’t. Dr.Offit said so.

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/paul-offit-a-choice-not-to-get-a-vaccine-is-not-a-risk-free-choice/
      “Yeah. I think there are a couple things. The influenza vaccine and the yellow fever vaccine are both made in eggs; therefore they contain small quantities or residual quantities of egg proteins. About a half a percent of the population is allergic to eggs, including severe allergies, including things such as bad hives and shock, and those people can’t get influenza vaccine. Well, there’s no reason you can’t grow influenza vaccine in mammalian cells, meaning non-avian cells. That can be done. The technology has been available to do that for decades, but there’s been little interest in doing that. It cries out for, in many ways, consumer activism.

      Similarly, there’s a stabilizing agent that’s used in the chicken pox vaccine called gelatin. It allows the vaccine virus to be distributed equally throughout the vial. The question is, are there other stabilizing agents that you could use, that aren’t gelatin, that could accomplish the same thing? Absolutely. But again there’s [been] very little pressure, I think, to do that, even though it’s probably the most common allergenic material in vaccines.”

  73. #90 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    vinu @79: ” all vaccines that contain bacterial proteins that can cross react with food proteins”
    If bacterial proteins can cross react with food proteins then wouldn’t people also develop food allergies from being exposed to those specific bacteria?

    • #91 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      Yes, the H1N1 virus naturally caused narcolepsy.
      The Pandemrix vaccine also caused narcolepsy.

      The key is route of exposure. Bacterial proteins are not usually injected along with aluminum salts as is the case with vaccines.
      Also, once you are old enough to eat foods, you develop oral tolerance to those proteins. So bacterial infection after that are less likely to cause the development of allergy to those same proteins.

  74. #92 sadmar
    December 21, 2016

    When we read things we take to be “ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoopish” etc. I think it’s a drastic mistake to conisder the people writing them to be ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops. This leads to the idea that if they only had been or could be educated to the facts of ‘reality’ they’d be somehow cured and everything would be OK. “Delusional” is closer, but still too-much sounding like asylum-crazy to fit how these notions get by in the everyday world of otherwise functional and mostly sane individuals. That is, I’d guess most of S.D. Wells readers get up, get dressed, make breakfast, drive to work, do their jobs, and find their way back home without mistaking the toaster or other cars on the freeway for enslavement devices planted by the Red Lectroid invaders masquerading as their co-workers — or anything else we’d consider a sign of being delusional in general. People seem to go off very specific deep ends in ways that are inconsistent with how they approach most things in life.

    And my main point here is that these deep-but-narrow delusions are far more common and pointed at a much wider range of things than the particular variety of delusion in alt-med anti-vax etc. etc. Even Mikey Adams and Alex Jones, who offer up fairly eclectic delusional smorgasbords, don’t come close to covering it all.

    Last night Rachel Maddow covered some of recent politics in Michigan. She began with an automated unemployment insurance registration system that tagged 93% of applications as fraudlent, sent out robo-threats not just denying claims but levying completely inappropriate fines. Which many frightened unemployed people went further into debt to pay lest the face jail time, resulting in the balance in the State unemployment contingency fund rising from $3.1 million dollars to $155 million dollars. Of which the State has payed back only $5 million, with the legislature just having passed a measure to transfer t$10 million out of the fund to balance the state budget.

    Next she reviewed the Flint water crisis, which resulted from decisions made by the Emergency Manager of Flint around the same time the automated unemployment bandit went online. As you probably know the EM swiitched Flint’s water supply from the clean water of Lake Huron to the polluted water of the Flint river, just pumping it straight into the pipes without proper treatment. The first result was 12 deaths from Legionaire’s disease, followed by the resulting corrosion of the pipes creating lead poisoning in massive chunks of the city’s population. This was back in news yesterday, because that now-former Flint EM and his also now-former successor and two of their public works appointees have been charged with multiple felonies by the State Attorney General.

    Meanwhile, the city is still getting it’s water from the Flint river, virtually nothing has been done to fix the pipes, and the residents are not receiving the bottled water they need. The editor of The Flint Journal told Maddow:

    The State has fought efforts to deliver that water; they just went to court to try to get out of that responsibility. You have these charges today where the State is being told they were putting money in front of people’s lives, and yet they’re still fighting tooth and nail to avoid doing even the most base responsibility.

    I note this hear because neither Maddow nor anyone she interviewed from Flint can come to grips with how anyone could do this,. And after Maddow reports other news of the day from Washington, equally outre if not more so, she winds up speechless, just staring at the camera for several moments before recapturing her poise and continuing.

    Why? How? The AG speaks of “”a fixation with finances and balance sheets … It’s all about numbers over people, money over health.” But I don’t think anyone imagines that this is a satisfactory. Why? How? could they do that?

    But wait, there’s more! Maddow didn’t mention this:

    Governor Rick Snyder has increased his legal defense budget for one of his private attorneys to $3.5 million. Snyder hired Warner, Norcross & Judd LLP last spring to represent him in the investigations into the Flint water crisis. The contract for their firm at the time was for $249,000. Over time, that cap rose to $2 million before its most recent increase… The money comes from taxpayer dollars – an issue that in the past caused a Flint resident to ask for a grand jury to look into the legality of the use. That case was not accepted by the court.

    Or this:

    Late on Friday afternoon Utah Republican Jason Chaffetz, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, sent a pair of letters announcing the end of his investigation [into the Flint water crisis]. His letters offered no new information and essentially summarized what had already revealed about the crisis during several high-profile hearings earlier this year. The top Democrat on the Committee, Maryland’s Elijah Cummings refused to sign Chaffetz’s letters closing the Flint investigation. Cummings argued that Snyder had obstructed the investigation by not providing key documents that would explain when he learned about the severity of the crisis. With congressional Republicans concluding that oversight is no longer needed, Snyder is unlikely to release those documents.

    Shall we call Rick Snyder, his Emergency Manager appointees, all the GOP legislators in Michigan, and everyone who voted for them after the deaths and poisoning in Flint hit the news ‘ignorant, stupid, dumb, silly, nincompoops’? When this is but a drop in the bucket of ‘delusion’ among the people running the country and the world, how can we be surprised at the ‘delusions’ of S. D. Wells or his readers at NN?

    I struggle to think of any explanation for all this. This is the best I can up with at the moment: In a sane world, the news from Flint would force us all to stop whatever else we may be doing, pay attention, and adopt some sort of response to it in whatever we think and do going forward. But that’s too high a burden. The lower-third on the tube reads “President Elect Donald Trump” and we just keep on keeping on. The PEOTUS appoints an NSA director who Tweets Hillary Clinton and John Podesta are running a child sex-slave ring, and another high official at the same spy agency who claimed Barack Obama isn’t Black, but an Arab feigning Blackness to make false claims of victimhood. (Yes,you read that right, as the assumption would be that Muslims aren’t the victims of unjust discrimination in the US.) Do we stop and digest that, or just follow the news feed along to the next Trump-Tweet about his meeting with Kanye West, or the announcement that a duet between Taylor Swift and Zayn Malik will be featured in the soundtrack of “Fifty Shades Darker”?

    The one comment on Wells that rang true for me was from Prof. Reiss, “The real problem is that most readers want to believe this.” My thoughts, then, are:
    1. That this is not at all limited to the alt-med groupies at NN, but more of a pandemic touching otherwise ‘normal’ people on a whole host of issues.
    2. That it’s less wanting to believe than needing to believe, for the purpose of reconciling the craziness of life with the need to plug ahead in mundane everyday activities and a mindset that ‘works’ for that maintenance.
    3. That whether we call it desire or need the drive to believe is so strong that ‘believing makes it so” is as common as dirt.
    4. Just because we can identify and scoff at some varieties of “believing makes it so” doesn’t mean we’re immune from all of it, or from simply tuning out, or otherwise not-dealing with certain pressing realities.

    Finally, in thinking about all this as a sky filled with magic carpets, I was reminded of my old political economy professor (Vincent Mosco) who said of Reagan’s ‘Star Wars’ that the question wasn’t ‘Will it work?’ but ‘What work will it do?’ Magic carpets, by definition, don’t work as claimed. But they are, in fact, doing an awful lot of very real, very material work, yes?

  75. #93 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    vinu@88: With all respect to Dr Offit, transitioning a pharmaceutical manufacturing system from avian to mammalian cells is not at all trivial, would probably take a decade, and would be pretty darn expensive. Given that its unlikely that the price of the vaccine would make up for the cost of the transition (which would most likely also require clinical trials to prove that the vaccine is the same out of mammalian cells as it is out of chicken eggs), there is very little incentive for the companies to do this.

    As for gelatin, all I can say is that any change in formulation requires mountains of data to the FDA, and occasionally a clinical trial. These are not simple, easy or quick changes to make.

    • #94 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      We were warned more than a hundred years ago, against injecting proteins. So there has been plenty of time to fix it. First you have to ACKNOWLEDGE that the problem exists. Then we can find the best way to fix it.

      The Japanese discovered that their gelatin contaminated vaccines were causing the development of gelatin allergy.
      They ACKNOWLEDGED that gelatin contaminated vaccines were the problem and REMOVED gelatin from their vaccines to solve the problem.
      Removal of gelatin from live vaccines and DTaP-an ultimate solution for vaccine-related gelatin allergy.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624794

  76. #95 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    vinu @90 “Yes, the H1N1 virus naturally caused narcolepsy.
    The Pandemrix vaccine also caused narcolepsy.”
    This has nothing to do with bacteria.

    Going back to food allergies, how many vaccines against bacteria are given before the age of 6 months? (6 months is the usual age for American children to start solids.)

    • #96 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      Plenty. Hib, Prevnar 13, DTap, 3 of each.

  77. #97 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Sadmar, with kindness – your comment has nothing to do with the original post or the discussion at hand (excepting the shoe-horned introduction). Have you considered getting your own blog?
    Or at least posting this back on one of the old lead posts?

  78. #98 JustaTech
    December 21, 2016

    Vinu @93: So you never want anyone to ever inject any protein ever again?
    So you’ve just condemmed all the young and not-yet-born to a life filled with communicable diseases.
    And you’ve killed every insulin-dependent diabetic in the world.
    And you’ve stopped every fertility treatment and all hormonal treatments.
    Oh, *and* you’ve just eliminated life saving treatment for everyone who suffers from an allergy. (Epipens are an injection.)

    I get it. You’re afraid of needles, so you’ve invented the idea that injecting proteins causes food allergies, even though you have provided no evidence of a higher incidence of food allergies during post-approval monitoring, (also called Phase 4 trials), which are required of all vaccines.

    And because of your fear you would demand that the world give up a huge number of life-saving treatments.

    No.

    • #99 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      First,

      https://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/evidence-that-food-proteins-in-vaccines-cause-the-development-of-foodallergies-and-its-implications-for-vaccine-policy-2329-6631-1000137.pdf

      “O’Brien et al. [13] measured 7.4 mcg/ml of ovalbumin in
      influenza vaccines in 1967. Goldis et al. [14] measured as much as 38.3 mcg/ml in influenza vaccines as recently as 2008.”

      What does that mean? It means food protein contaminated vaccines causing food allergy is a PREVENTABLE HARM.

      Second,
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644270
      “A major challenge, however, is the choice of target antigens. If an engineered TCR can cross-react with self-antigens in healthy tissue, the side-effects can be devastating. We present the first web server for assessing epitope sharing when designing new potential lead targets. ”

      Same problem for vaccines. Vaccine makers must do their homework and avoid cross reacting epitopes. Self or food antigens.

    • #100 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      “you’ve invented the idea that injecting proteins causes food allergies,”

      No, credit for that goes to Nobel Laureate Charles Richet.

      ” even though you have provided no evidence of a higher incidence of food allergies during post-approval monitoring, (also called Phase 4 trials), which are required of all vaccines.”

      Food allergy development takes a few weeks after vaccination. Solicited adverse events in vaccine trials DO NOT include food protein sensitization. If you refuse to look for it, you won’t find it.

      As I wrote before, in a well controlled experiment with just two patients, it was IMMEDIATELY obvious that food protein contaminated vaccines boosted food allergy to those contaminants.

      http://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5225/rr-0

    • #101 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      insulin is already circulating in your body.
      Epinephrine is not a protein.
      So it is ok to inject both as long as the injection is not contaminated with other proteins.

  79. #102 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

    Next time, offer to send, say, another $200, and see if they answer then.

  80. #103 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    A great example is bee stings. You don’t suffer too many bee stings in nature.
    If you become a beekeeper (evolution did not plan that), you get into trouble.
    Repeated bee stings (injecting bee venom proteins) causes IgE mediated sensitization to the bee venom proteins and the development of IgE mediated allergy to bee venom.
    Eich-Wanger C, Muller UR. Bee sting allergy in beekeepers. Clin Exp Allergy. 1998;28(10):1292–8.

    And yet, according to
    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bee-stings/diagnosis-treatment/treatment/txc-20251662
    (bolding mine)

    Bee and other insect stings are a common cause of anaphylaxis. If you’ve had a serious reaction to a bee sting or multiple stings, your doctor likely will refer you to an allergist for allergy testing and consideration of allergy shots (immunotherapy). These shots, generally given regularly for a few years, can reduce or eliminate your allergic response to bee venom.

    • #104 vinu arumugham
      December 21, 2016

      Immunotherapy involves injecting small doses of allergen that are not enough to cause a reaction. The effect is your body creates IgG4 against the antigens. This has the effect of inducing a type of tolerance.

      For foods, such igG4 mediated tolerance changes your disease from IgE mediated allergy to GI problems such as eosinophilic esophagitis.

      So, prevention of IgE mediated allergy by cleaning up our vaccines is better than an immunotherapy based “cure”.

  81. #105 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    Continuing – hit submit too soon

    It sounds like large amounts may cause allergies, but small amounts might cure them.

    I know what you’re gonna say. Aluminum makes the near homeopathic dose of ‘food protein’ trigger the allergic response. Fine. As posted by Jay, come up with a graph showing the different growth media to cultivate vaccine viruses and then their resulting food allergies?

  82. #107 herr doktor bimler
    December 21, 2016

    MJD:
    I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

    I am genuinely sympathetic. I disagree with most of MJD’s ideas, but it grieves me to see money going to scammers like the Bio-Accent mooks.

  83. #108 sadmar
    December 21, 2016

    @ JustaTech #96

    With kindness: Just because you didn’t draw the connection – the last six paragraphs, excluding the block quotes – doesn’t mean it’s not there. Honestly, I think it’s one of my more on-topic comments, and I wouldn’t have wanted to post it anywhere else.

    #91 is a long comment for RI, and I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of folks just drop out of it in the middle of the Flint stuff. But if they do get to the bottom, I think it’s reasonably clear that the comment isn’t about Flint. It’s about how we do or don’t think about the belief that led to the Flint crisis can put some perspective on how we think about S.D. Wells, especially “the real problem is that most readers want to believe this.” I take that ‘want’ as so puzzling we can’t really explain it – just calling it ‘stupid’ etc. being no explanation at all. I could have been more clear, maybe, but what happened in Flint seems to be an even more extreme bizarre and puzzling case of “believing makes it so”. They believed they could switch the water supply from Lake Huron to the Flint river and it would somehow be OK, and they apparently still believe that if they deny there’s any problem, there isn’t any problem, or the problem will go away, or something like that.

    Segue to people whose need to believe everything will be OK just channel surfs by the announcements that Mike Flynn and Monica Crowley will be running the agency “responsible for global monitoring, collection, and processing of information and data for foreign intelligence and counterintelligence purposes” for the most powerful nation in the world. Yesterday Flynn met with the leader of Austria’s Freedom Party, which you might call neo-nazi except for the fact it’s first leader was an actual Nazi, having been an officer in the SS and Minister of Agriculture under the Third Reich. What? Me worry? No problemo.

    My point JustaTech, is that the belief that childhood vaccines represent “the worst odds you or your children have of being infected with disease, disorder, and deformity” because they’re filled with “neurotoxins, genetically modified bacteria, live experimental strains of multiple viruses and pesticides” is among the least WTF beliefs circulating these days when you account for the number of believers, and the social influence they exert. Which leads me to speculate that the specifics of this strain of anti-vax are less of a factor in its circulation than some larger over-arching condition both feeding all sorts of weird-belief phenomena on the one hand, and a sort of irrelevance of any belief on the other. Which would be what we need to address if we wanted to push back on the Wellses, Adames, and Joneses.

    I hope that explains it some… It’s the best I can do at the moment.

    As with all web comments, YMMV, and different readers will find different ones useful or useless. I’ll take the fact Orac doesn’t moderate as partly motivated by wanting to maximize the chances that someone will find some thing of interest in the thread, not maximizing comments that most readers will appreciate. Anyway, that’s the spirit in which I (humbly, fwiw) make comments in these threads I don’t expect any number of readers to find them valuable. I’m just leaving them here in the chance at least one person, one day, might find them worthwhile.

    Cheers.

  84. #109 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    No graph, but pretty close:

    Close in the same way that GN-z11 is close to my house.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GN-z11

    What you have linked to is a response you wrote, asserting again, without evidence, your idea that injections regularly cause food allergies, to an article that has the word allergy or something like it 9 times, 7 of which are in the references as the title of articles or the name of a journal. The 2 uses in the body of the article is in the sentence “Two studies reported cytokine production to mitogens after tetanus toxoid vaccination. After PHA stimulation, increases in IFN-γ and IL-13 were noted in participants with non-allergic rhinitis compared with allergic rhinitis.”

    Nothing about vaccinations *causing* allergies.

    • #110 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 21, 2016

      Please read my response. NOT THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.

  85. #111 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    …but it grieves me to see money going to scammers like the Bio-Accent mooks.

    I disagree with the word “scammers”, Herr Doktor.

    BAOJ promises to post your content on their site if you send them money. MJD sent money, they posted his content. Sure, they might have exagerated the prestige of their web site, but they provided the (overpriced) service they promised, and, base on the submission and publication dates, they were also prompt.

    Could we agree on ‘predators’?

  86. #112 vinu arumugham
    December 21, 2016

    The human immune system is probably one of world’s best protein detectors …

    https://wao.confex.com/wao/2015symp/webprogram/Paper9336.html

    “Case 1: At 8 months-old, her serum IgE values (in IU/mL) were total 61.4, peanut 13.6, almond 4.04, milk 3.84, egg 2.01, soy 1.6, and wheat 0.98, compared to total 44.1, peanut 11.2, almond 1.54, milk 2, egg 1.71, soy 1.62, and wheat 2.2 at 12 months-old. After the 12 month-old labs were drawn, she received the vaccines Prevnar13, hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella. 3 weeks later, at 12.7 months-old, her IgE values were total 75.6, peanut 16.5, almond 2.18, milk 5.06, egg 3.4, soy 3.64, and wheat 3.75.”

    Let’s review peanut IgE. One or more of these vaccines (Prevnar13, hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella) could have contributed to the increase in peanut IgE. However, the patient already was sensitized at 8 months. Since hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella are only administered starting at 12 months, the sensitization was most likely due to Prevnar 13. Per the CDC vaccine schedule, by 8 months, the patient likely already received 3 shots of Prevnar 13. The Prevnar 13 at 12 months boosted the peanut IgE levels already induced by the previous 3 shots.

    2. Parent Jeff below also reports development of peanut allergy in a 14 month-old following administration of Prevnar 13.

    3. A quick search of VAERS shows at least one similar case, VAERS ID: 413656-1.

    “Onset of apparent peanut allergy with rash on 3rd exposure to peanuts 15 days after receiving vaccines.”

    Vaccines received Pentacel, MMR II, Prevnar 13. 15 month old patient.

    Prevnar 13 vaccine package insert:

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM201669.pdf

    http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/whats-really-behind-peanut-allergy-epidemic/
    New comment on The Thinking Moms’ Revolution

    Jeff commented on How to Cause a Peanut Allergy Epidemic in 4 Easy Steps.

    in response to ThinkingMomsRevolution:

    (This originally ran February 27, 2014. As the second edition of Heather Fraser’s book is now out, it seemed a great time to revisit this blog in the hopes that we can reach even more people. — Editor) At some point in 2010 I saw a simple website, where the margins of the text were […]

    My 14 month-old son received Varicella, MMR, Prevnar 13, Fluzone and Vaqta (Hep A) last week. Five days later (over the weekend) he developed an allergic reaction to peanut butter, which he’s eaten more than 20 times. The doctor told me it was a coincidence, which I found insulting so I asked for the NDC’s of what was given. Is there anything I can do? As a parent, the doctor decides these vaccines (what to buy and from who) and the schedule they are administered. The timing is too precise to be a coincidence. Could the hypersensitivity to peanuts be temporary (wishful thinking)?

    Reply Comments

  87. #113 Panacea
    December 21, 2016

    @ vinu #100 who said:

    “insulin is already circulating in your body.
    Epinephrine is not a protein.
    So it is ok to inject both as long as the injection is not contaminated with other proteins.”

    OK, you’ve just managed to contradict yourself twice, and demonstrate you haven’t the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

    1) Insulin is indeed already circulating in your system, but it is not a protein. It is a peptide hormone. Just FYI, it’s not a protein (although similar, they are not the same protein hormones).

    2) Epinephrine is not a protein (you got that part right), and it is also a hormone. But it also is “already circulating” in your system, because it is produced by the adrenal gland.

    3) What the heck does “contaminating it with other proteins” have to do with the price of tea in china?

    • #114 vinu arumugham
      December 22, 2016

      If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern.

  88. #115 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 21, 2016

    However, the patient already was sensitized at 8 months. Since hepatitis A, MMR, and Varicella are only administered starting at 12 months, the sensitization was most likely due to Prevnar 13. Per the CDC vaccine schedule, by 8 months, the patient likely already received 3 shots of Prevnar 13. The Prevnar 13 at 12 months boosted the peanut IgE levels already induced by the previous 3 shots.

    False.

    Note the part in the methods section that says –

    Case 1: At 5 months of age, the otherwise healthy girl tasted peanut butter and developed hives and facial swelling within 20 minutes. Total and food allergen-specific IgE values were measured by ImmunoCAP 250 at ages (months) 8, 12, 12.7.

    So you have the case of a child that was already allergic to peanuts at 5 months, not 8, and would have had 2 doses if she was on schedule, not 3.

    Did the 6 month and 12 month shots trigger any outward symptoms of an allergic reaction, or just some elevated lab results? It’s not noted, and you can’t say yes or no. I would think it would have been mentioned, but that’s just me.

    Case 2 is about the same – but different ages.

    But, hey, it’s evidence that people that are allergic will have allergic reactions. But as far as evidence that vaccines cause allergies, it’s a long way off.

    • #116 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 22, 2016

      Yes, she was allergic to peanuts at 5 months, received another Prevnar 13 at 6 months and was still allergic at 8 months per her IgE numbers. I don’t see what you are objecting to …

      Her IgE numbers DECLINED from 8 to 12 months. After she received the shots at 12 months, the IgE INCREASED.
      Proof that the vaccines BOOSTED her food allergy.

  89. #117 Chris Preston
    December 21, 2016

    I sent seven (7) e-mails to BAOJ in an attempt to make corrections, as they formatted the article, and it was a terrible experience.

    I would sympathise, but this was self-inflicted.

  90. #118 Chris Preston
    December 22, 2016

    First,

    https:// http://www.omicsgroup.org/journals/evidence-that-food-proteins-in-vaccines-cause-the-development-of-foodallergies-and-its-implications-for-vaccine-policy-2329-6631-1000137.pdf

    Another vanity publication. You should share experiences of being fleeced by predatory publishers with Michael.

    3 days for acceptance is not quite a record though. Michael managed it in just 1 day. That is what you get for submitting on a Saturday. Best to wait until Monday for your next pile of barf.

    • #119 vinu arumugham
      December 22, 2016

      My publication was featured here:
      Recent publications from the NIH Immunology Interest Group
      https://list.nih.gov/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1511&L=immuni-l&F=&S=&P=49179
      Evidence that Food Proteins in Vaccines Cause the Development of Food Allergies and Its Implications for Vaccine Policy.
      Arumugham V J Develop Drugs 4: 137, 2015 doi:10.4172/2329-6631.1000137

  91. #120 Narad
    December 22, 2016

    Uh, or you could be describing the well-documented phenomenon of original antigenic sin

    I doubt it. There’s so much transparently wrong with Vinu’s pathetic threadjacking idea that it’s not even worth bothering with.

  92. #121 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 22, 2016

    …received another Prevnar 13 at 6 months and was still allergic at 8 months…

    Prevnar13 does not cure peanut allergies. Is that your complaint?

    Proof that the vaccines BOOSTED her food allergy.

    No. It’s proof that she showed an allergic reaction, something that people who are allergic tend to do.

    Just so you’re clear, I object to you saying that her sensitization was due to 3 doses of Prevnar13, when she had at most 2 doses when her peanut allergy was found by feeding her peanut butter at 5 months. There is also no evidence she had any notable allergic symptoms from the Prevnar13 shot other than elevated lab results.

    Again, this is far from proof that vaccines cause allergies.

    • #122 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 22, 2016

      ” It’s proof that she showed an allergic reaction”

      What reaction are you talking about? There is no mention of any reaction in that article.

      “Just so you’re clear, I object to you saying that her sensitization was due to 3 doses of Prevnar13, when she had at most 2 doses when her peanut allergy was found by feeding her peanut butter at 5 months. There is also no evidence she had any notable allergic symptoms from the Prevnar13 shot other than elevated lab results.”

      An increase in allergic sensitization (IgE increase) will NOT HAVE “any notable allergic symptoms” other than the lab results.
      The increased allergic symptoms will occur if she tried ingesting peanut butter again.

      If she was sensitized by 2 doses of Prevnar 13 at 5 months, she was sensitized by 3 doses at 8 months. Not sure what your objection is?

  93. #123 vinu arumugham
    United States
    December 22, 2016

    Anti-insulin antibodies/insulin allergy …

    Injecting foreign protein/epitopes is a problem …food or animal insulin …

    https://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopkins/view/Johns_Hopkins_Diabetes_Guide/547076/all/Insulin_Antibodies
    “Most common when patients are exposed to beef or pork insulin, rather than only to human or analog insulins [2].”

  94. #124 Andreas Johansson
    December 22, 2016

    Dorit Reiss wrote:

    Be nice and don’t deconstruct the ingredients in organic foods for them, or – unless they really believe as a tenant that the difference between injection and ingestion is the end-all, and they might, they will starve to death.

    Not sure their rationalizations would be that logical. My local vaccine skeptic tends to believe that additives are always bad and naturally-occuring trace ingredients are always good – even if they’re the same thing. Since vaccines are unnatural, everything in them is an additive.

    He was opining the other day that taking flu shots was irrational, because vaccines are clearly more dangerous than the common cold.

  95. #125 JustaTech
    December 22, 2016

    Well that was interesting. I wonder how some of our allergy fiends would respond to the children who grow out of allergies? Or the adults who develop them long after they’ve stopped getting vaccines?
    Hmmm?

    You know what’s really cool? You can take a blood draw from someone with a peanut allergy, drop some purified peanut protein into the blood and watch the eosinophils go *sprong!!*

    • #126 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 23, 2016

      “Or the adults who develop them long after they’ve stopped getting vaccines?”
      The multi-billion dollar proton pump inhibitor market …
      The role of protein digestibility and antacids on food allergy outcomes
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999748/

      • #127 Wzrd1
        December 24, 2016

        Well, vinu, I’ve been happily taking proton pump inhibitors for years, due to severe GERD. I’ve stopped digesting my teeth and pillow cases due to taking them.
        Oddly, no allergies to foods have been acquired since I began taking those proton pump inhibitors.
        Interestingly, acid is only one factor in digestion, enzymes are also present and those do a whiz bang job at digesting my food for me.

        • #128 vinu arumugham
          United States
          December 24, 2016

          Nice to hear that. But as the study shows, not everybody is as lucky as you. And you probably know about the risks of stroke/dementia/osteoporosis/infection associated with long term PPI. Acid is important to absorb so many nutrients.

  96. #129 Wzrd1
    December 22, 2016

    All of these toxins are so worrisome, a veritable threat to the species!
    What we need is an organ, likely it’ll have to be a rather large one. Perhaps, in the abdomen, where there’d be room for it. Maybe in the upper right quadrant.

    I wonder what we’d call such a wonderful organ?

    @MJD, you lost when you claimed that 10 mcg of NaCl in an aqueous solution could denature proteins. Were that true, distilled water would as well, as well as hypertonic saline and isotonic saline solutions.

    @vinu, reactions that you’re complaining of could as easily have been triggered by the ubiquitous usage of latex in medical environments, of which powdered latex gloves have just been banned by the FDA.

    • #130 vinu arumugham
      December 23, 2016

      not sure which reactions you are linking to latex …

  97. #131 JustaTech
    December 22, 2016

    Wzrd1: Shhhh! Don’t say that word!

  98. #132 Chris Preston
    Australia
    December 22, 2016

    Over the last few days, I have been trading comments with Anthony Samsel on the subject of glyphosate in vaccines. A truly delusional person who sees nothing unethical in making claims and spreading fear without the data to back it up. Of course, he says he has the data, its just not published yet.

    I originally thought that Samsel may have had some expertise given his claimed background and was just deluded about the extent of his expertise. However, it has become quite clear that he is just another run-of-the-mill crank.

  99. #133 vinu arumugham
    United States
    December 23, 2016

    Why was AAHS used as control?
    “Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate [AAHS]-controlled”
    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM111263.pdf

  100. #134 katey
    south of the tropic of Capricorn
    December 23, 2016

    Sadmar @108 – I find this and many of your comments (here and on Sci Med) helpful, interesting and sometimes challenging. Thank you.

  101. #135 Jay
    December 23, 2016

    @ Vinu “No graph, but pretty close:”

    Not even slightly, way to totally dodge the issue, by spamming more of your BS.

    In the Small Pox days, they were brewing up vaccines in COWS, then crudely filtering the MESS and INJECTING said concoction into lines of willing VICTIMS.

    Now according to you, over the next months, there would have been mass outbreaks of beef allergy.

    So WHERE’S THE BEEF?

    • #136 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 23, 2016

      Depends what proteins were involved and heat lability.
      First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?
      Second, I don’t know how many doses were involved.
      Third, it probably had no aluminum adjuvant that biases towards an allergic response?
      As you know, many milk and egg allergic patients can tolerate baked products containing milk and egg.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9058683

  102. #137 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    December 23, 2016

    Kateysays (#132),

    Sadmar @108 – I find this and many of your comments (here and on Sci Med) helpful, interesting and sometimes challenging. Thank you.

    MJD says,

    I agree, Sadmar’s comments are often a wonderful change of pace. A few times he has been more entertaining than Orac.

    Johnny on the other hand is like thimerosal in a vaccine, Orac is the only one who wants more of him.

  103. #138 serj
    usa
    December 23, 2016

    A lot of what people use including food Thaksin is for our body. I do not think that a small kolchesvto other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring the body of toxins as I posriasis. And I know how to do it and what they’ve got. In any case, this is my opinion. The article is very interesting thanks!

  104. #139 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    December 23, 2016

    Someone has been peeking at my Christmas list. Earning a spot on MJD’s enimies list was number 7.

  105. #140 rs
    December 23, 2016

    serj fails the Turing test. Must be the toxins.

  106. #141 Gilbert
    December 23, 2016

    A lot of what people use including food Thaksin is for our body. I do not think that a small kolchesvto other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring the body of toxins as I posriasis. And I know how to do it and what they’ve got. In any case, this is my opinion. The article is very interesting thanks!

    A lot of what people use for food, including eating the former prime misister of Thialand, is (bad) for our body. I do not think that a small ( kolchesvto kolichestvo==) amount (of) other toxins can somehow cardinally affect the operation of our body. I always try to bring rid the body of toxins as I (have) Psoriasis. http://www.icheapgrandtrade.ru/wholesale-gucci-shoes-c57.html The article is very interesting thanks!

  107. #142 Dangerous Bacon
    December 23, 2016

    “First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?”

    If there was, I’d blow up like a hot air balloon after eating a Wendy’s triple cheeseburger, and be waving to you from a few thousand feet overhead.

    Simple logic.

  108. #143 Lighthorse
    December 24, 2016

    How to make money by spreading fear-based propaganda in the form of medical falsehoods. Step 1. Get yourself a web site and make up shit that to the ignorant sounds sort of plausible. Take advantage of your ignorance in making stuff up. The scarier it sounds the better. Be very careful in citing references to the scientific literature. For example, if you want to gain page views and ad reveue from pushing the idea that vaccines cause allergies, avoid references that point to references of the fact that anyone can develop a food or other type of allergy at any time in life regardless of one type of vaccine and another. If you must cite references, find pseudoscientific ones that pass the sniff test. If the odor of bullshit is too weak, find another.

  109. #144 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016

    @Wzrd1 #127

    participants who filled a prescription for a PPI at least once every three months were more than 40 percent more likely to develop dementia than their PPI-free counterparts…

    PPIs reduce stomach acidity by dialing down the activity of an enzyme that shuttles charged ions through tiny gates—the so-called proton pumps—on the surface of cells lining the stomach. Experts posit that because at least some PPIs have been shown to cross the blood-brain barrier, they may have unanticipated effects on similar enzymes in the brain. Neural support cells called microglia rely on acid-containing organelles to degrade unwanted proteins; inhibiting acid production could impair the cells’ ability to break up the protein tangles that are thought to be related to dementia…

    Studies of PPI-treated mice have confirmed that their brains contain higher levels of beta-amyloid proteins. And Haenisch points out another, simpler connection: PPI use has been linked to lower vitamin B12 availability, which itself has been implicated in cognitive decline.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-popular-heartburn-meds-really-cause-dementia/

    Sodium bicarbonate works for me.

    • #145 Wzrd1
      December 25, 2016

      “Studies of PPI-treated mice have confirmed that their brains contain higher levels of beta-amyloid proteins.”

      Like many, many studies, mice are poor analogs for humans.
      Likewise, the “40 percent greater risk” is a click bait claim, as the risk was low to begin with and the claimed 40 percent greater risk is still tiny.
      Add in the already present risk of one in 14 people over 65 and one in six over 80, alcohol intake and assorted other factors, the claimed number shows as much noise as signal.
      Meanwhile, I have severe tooth erosion, secondary to acid damage to my teeth, stained pillows from stomach contents being regurgitated in the middle of the night and Barrett’s esophagus, I’ll stick with my proton pump inhibitors.

  110. #146 Jay
    December 24, 2016

    @ Vinu

    “Depends what proteins were involved and heat lability.”

    Rubbish. First you were talking about, “If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern.”
    Now they’re “special” proteins. The early vaccines were massively contaminated with proteins, bacteria and all sorts.

    “First, how do you know there was no beef allergy?”

    Vinu, there have been food allergies for over 2000 years, you need to show it has increased after vaccination, burden of proof lies with you.

    “Second, I don’t know how many doses were involved.”

    Erm you are bitching about vaccination and you don’t know the history?

    “Third, it probably had no aluminum adjuvant that biases towards an allergic response?”

    “probably”? Of course not, adjuvants belong to a different century! You don’t know your basic vaccine history and you dare claim expertise, shame on you!

    • #147 vinu arumugham
      December 24, 2016

      “First you were talking about, “If they were contaminated with any protein, sensitization against that protein would be the concern.””
      You can still be sensitized to beef proteins. But if you eat cooked beef where the protein is modified, you won’t suffer a reaction. So, you won’t know that you have developed an allergy.

      “food allergies for over 2000 years”
      http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(15)00584-9/abstract

      “The reasons why peanut allergy has become more common might include (1) changes in vaccines, particularly the change from cellular to acellular pertussis; (2) excessive washing of the skin that could have increased penetration of the skin by peanut proteins; and (3) attempts to avoid oral peanut.”

      “don’t know the history”
      I am primarily interested in the safety of CURRENT vaccines.
      Please post package inserts of the old vaccine. I can only find current vaccines at the FDA site.

      • #148 Yerushalmi
        Jerusalem, Israel
        December 25, 2016

        @Vinu
        “You can still be sensitized to beef proteins. But if you eat cooked beef where the protein is modified, you won’t suffer a reaction. So, you won’t know that you have developed an allergy.”

        Just to be clear, are you saying that if somebody has a peanut allergy, cooked peanuts won’t trigger a reaction?

        • #149 vinu arumugham
          United States
          December 25, 2016

          “Just to be clear, are you saying that if somebody has a peanut allergy, cooked peanuts won’t trigger a reaction?”

          No, peanut proteins are not modified by cooking.
          However, many people who are allergic to milk/egg can tolerate baked milk/egg containing products without a reaction. Milk/egg proteins are modified by baking temperatures.

          Dietary baked-milk accelerates resolution of cow’s milk allergy in children
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3151608/

        • #150 vinu arumugham
          United States
          December 25, 2016

          More detail in case there is confusion …
          Raw peanut and roasted peanut have differences in some protein structures. When we talk of peanut allergy, we are usually referring to allergy to roasted peanuts which is most common at least in the US. It may be possible that such an allergic person could tolerate raw or boiled peanut. It depends on which specific peanut protein the person is allergic to and how that protein is modified by boiling/roasting.
          If you are allergic to roasted peanuts and if you cook roasted peanuts again, you will still have a reaction.

  111. #151 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016

    adjuvants belong to a different century!

    I don’t even… O RLY?

  112. #152 Jay
    December 24, 2016

    “I am primarily interested in the safety of CURRENT vaccines.”

    I/ we don’t care what your interests are, you are shouting warnings on vaccines and adjuvants, you should bloody well know your stuff!

    “Please post package inserts of the old vaccine.”

    Again a very silly thing to say, package inserts didn’t become law till the 1960s.

    • #153 vinu arumugham
      United States
      December 24, 2016

      Ok, if you are telling me that those vaccines contained undocumented garbage, I am somehow supposed to explain why it does not cause a certain disease?

  113. #154 Ben
    December 24, 2016

    @Vinu

    Does J Develop Drugs have a peer review panel?

    • #155 vinu arumugham
      December 24, 2016

      Yes.

  114. #156 Jay
    December 24, 2016

    @ Ben

    I’ve stopped clicking on his links, they are usually meaningless to the point at hand. I suspect he’s trying to generate traffic to his “research”.

    • #157 vinu arumugham
      December 24, 2016

      Please be specific.

  115. #158 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016
  116. #159 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016

    Crap. And how did I miss this??

    Keith Emerson’s death has been officially ruled suicide. The co-founder and keyboardist of the influential prog-rock group Emerson, Lake and Palmer died last week at the age of 71.

    An autopsy by the Los Angeles coroner confirmed that Emerson shot himself.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/16/keith-emerson-death-suicide-emerson-lake-and-palmer

  117. #160 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016

    Merry Christmas and fuck you, 2016.

  118. #161 Gilbert
    December 24, 2016

    Oops, wrong Greg Lake.

    “arrest the sun and shoot the moon; the lamp of laughter dies too soon.

  119. #162 Jay
    December 25, 2016

    “Ok, if you are telling me that those vaccines contained undocumented garbage, I am somehow supposed to explain why it does not cause a certain disease?”

    No, we have passed that point. I’m telling you that you do not know enough about vaccines or adjuvants to comment on their safety and should shut up. Like right now.

  120. #163 Jay
    December 25, 2016

    “Please be specific.”

    Look at you being all innocent. Did you forget:

    “”No graph, but pretty close:”

    Close in the same way that GN-z11 is close to my house.”

    And:
    “@ Vinu “No graph, but pretty close:”

    Not even slightly, way to totally dodge the issue, by spamming more of your BS.”

  121. #164 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    December 26, 2016

    And to add to the deaths Gilbert listed, George Michael passed away in the early hours of Christmas Morning.

  122. #165 kcadams1980
    Houston, TX
    December 27, 2016

    The Gardasil nonsense became all the more irksome to me when I started working with head and neck cancer patients. I’m an LCSW at a large cancer hospital, and a good 50% of my time spent with patients is learning how to live with facial disfigurement, speech impairment, dysphasia, and so on… I’d say at least 35-40% of our newly diagnosed patients are 60-ish year old men with negligible smoking/drinking histories with (high-risk HPV) p16+ H&N tumors. Despite having a fairly good cure rate, the “quality of life” issues that accompany at least the surgery/radiation piece are HUGE. I get paged quite frequently to assess for suicide with these folks.

    Anyhow, moral of the story is that HPV is a big deal for women AND men. So I really hate seeing junk like this about the HPV vax – there needs to be more public awareness about the connection between HPV and oral cancers.

  123. #166 Jay
    December 27, 2016

    Thanks for your perspective KC.

  124. #167 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    December 28, 2016

    Add Carrie Fisher to the list of celebrities who left us this year.
    -_-

    • #168 Wzrd1
      December 28, 2016

      “I want it reported that I drowned in moonlight, strangled by my own bra.”

      –Carrie Fisher in her book, “Wishful Drinking”

      Such a fine sense of humor, such a waste. Damned cocaine.

  125. #169 Gilbert
    December 28, 2016
  126. […] frequently written about what I like to refer to as the “toxins gambit” with respect to vaccines. Basically, in the hard core (and even soft core) antivaccine […]