When it comes to the measles, antivaxers love to repeat a series of talking points. One is that measles is not a dangerous disease and was considered a normal part of childhood 50 or 60 years ago. This is what I like to refer to as the “Brady Bunch” gambit, mainly because antivaxers who try to make this argument often invoke an episode of The Brady Bunch from 1969, Is There a Doctor in the House?, in which all six kids contract the measles within a day of each other. Their illness is played for laughs, with the kids shown playing board games and enjoying having a few days off from school, while their concurrent illness provokes a conflict over whether the girls’ pediatrician or the boys’ pediatrician would be the family doctor. They also like to point to an episode of The Donna Reed Show from 1959 and an old episode of The Flintstones from around the same period, both of which portrayed measles as no big deal. It’s a ridiculous and dangerous argument that relies primarily on nostalgia and cherry-picked bits of mid-century Americana, rather than the actual risk of severe complications due to the measles. Other common antivax tropes about the measles include the claim that “vaccines didn’t save us” against it (they did) and that herd immunity is a myth or that “natural” immunity is better (it isn’t, especially against a disease as contagious as the measles).

Unfortunately, one of the topics I missed blogging about last week due to the travel and power outages that kept me away from the blog more than I’ve been away in a long time put the lie to all three of those common antivaccine tropes in a highly compelling way. I’m referring, unfortunately, to the ongoing measles outbreak in Romania, which hit the news again last week. This outbreak shows not only that measles is serious, but that vaccines can save and herd immunity is real. More importantly, it shows what could be a glimpse of our future if we allow vaccination rates to fall, thanks to antivaccine activists, perhaps aided by not-so-benign neglect on the part of the Trump administration.

Behold the horror:

National public health officials said an ongoing measles outbreak in Romania has infected more than 3,400 people and killed at least 17 despite an aggressive nationwide vaccination campaign.

Meanwhile, the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) warned of a greater regional outbreak of measles as a result of below-target vaccination coverage numbers in Romania.

“This poses a risk of potential repeated exportation to other [European] countries and possible continuous transmission in some where vaccination coverage is suboptimal,” the ECDC said in a recent rapid risk assessment report on the Romanian outbreak.

As of March 10, Romania’s National Institute of Public Health said 3,446 cases of measles have been confirmed since the outbreak began last year. The country is one of six in the European Union or European Economic Area judged by WHO to still have endemic transmission of the vaccine-preventable disease, along with Belgium, France, Germany, Italy and Poland.

I’m sure that any antivaccinationists who read this will point immediately to the phrase “despite an aggressive nationwide vaccination campaign,” as though the outbreak isn’t being stopped by increased vaccination. Of course, this line of argument fails to take into account that, once there are outbreaks, authorities are going to be playing catch-up, and it will take a while for increased vaccination rates to slow and stop the fury of the outbreak.

More importantly, children are dying, and they’re dying at roughly the rate we know from history to expect in developed countries. Normally, according to the CDC, the mortality rate from measles is typically quoted as 0.2% in the US but can be as high as 10% in areas with high levels of malnutrition. When measles is rare, as it fortunately still is in the US (for now, anyway), deaths are unlikely or likely only to be one, because you have to have thousands of cases before significant numbers of children die of the disease. Unfortunately, Romania has reached that level. So, right there, the case of Romania puts the lie to the claim that measles isn’t a dangerous disease.

Indeed, what we’re seeing in Romania is a mortality rate of around 0.5%. Worse, the deaths nearly all occurred among those who need herd immunity the most, as this report from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control found:

As of 17 February 2017 [2], 3 071 cases had been reported to the National Institute of Public Health, with 2 341 since October 2016 (Figure 2). These cases are either laboratory-confirmed, or have an epidemiological link to a laboratory-confirmed case. Cases have been reported in 36 districts with the districts of Caras Severin (n=703), Arad (n=617) and Timis (n=566) having reported the highest number of cases (Figure 3).

To date, 16 deaths have been reported, all of which occurred in persons who were immunocompromised or had other co-morbidities.

Infants <1 year old (n=549) and children 1–4 years old (n=1,247) made up the majority of cases. Ninety-six percent of cases were unvaccinated (n=2 958), 80 cases had received one dose of MCV and 33 had received two doses.

So right away we see two things. First, the vast majority of the cases of measles occurred in unvaccinated children, 96%! This is basically as close to a natural experiment as there is to see what happens when vaccine coverage falls below the rate necessary to maintain herd immunity. Second, it’s exactly the children who most rely on herd immunity who are dying. Again, this is what happens when vaccine coverage falls.

And that’s what happened in Romania:

MMR vaccination rates have fallen in recent years in Romania to below the 95% threshold recommended to interrupt transmission. According to the ECDC, coverage for one dose was just 86% in 2015 in Romania compared with 97% in 2007. In 2013, the last year when data were reported for two doses, 88% had received two doses compared with 96% in 2007. According to the CDC, two doses of the MMR vaccine are about 97% effective at preventing measles, and one dose is 93% effective.

In response to the outbreak, Romania lowered the age of the first MMR vaccine dose from 12 months to 9 months as part of an effort to fully vaccinate children between the ages of 9 months and 9 years. According to the ECDC, family doctors are registering unvaccinated children for vaccination — with the goal of giving one dose of the MMR vaccine to those under age 5 years and two doses to those between the ages of 5 years and 9 years — while community nurses are mobilizing children mainly in vulnerable population groups.

So that’s all it took, a decline in vaccine coverage from 96% of children having received two doses of the MMR to 88%. Herd immunity is a function of how contagious a disease is and how effective the vaccine is. Measles is, unfortunately, very contagious, meaning that high rates of vaccination are required to provide herd immunity. Fortunately, the MMR is highly effective, but no vaccine is 100% effective. Even with 100% vaccine coverage, there would still be roughly 3% of the population who would not be immune. Obviously, with lower levels of vaccine coverage, more are vulnerable. Basically, to block the transmission of measles requires 90-95% coverage, the higher the better. What Romania shows is just how tenuous the situation can be with respect to keeping measles under control, even in developed countries. It doesn’t take much. The measles virus is out there, and it will take advantage when there is an opening. The most effective way to give the virus the chance it needs is to let vaccination uptake fall, and it doesn’t have to fall much.

But why has the uptake of MMR fallen in Romania? One story tells us:

But Bodog said only 80 percent of Romanians receive the first vaccination dose and just 50 percent receive the second.

In Romania, poverty, the lack of access to health services, and the percentage of parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are at the heart of the recent epidemic.

Religious organisations and public figures have led recent anti-vaccination campaigns.

It’s not clear where the antivaccine sentiment came from or why it is so strong in Romania, but one study from UNICEF of antivaccine sentiment found on Eastern European social media sites found that fear of toxins in vaccines was the predominant, with fear of side effects and conspiracy theories as the other main reasons. It noted that in Romania school nurses perform mandatory vaccination during class, which is “seen as a human rights violation and a safety issue.” Parents are also skeptical about the skills of the school nurses and “feel surpassed by authorities in its decision to have children vaccinated.” Oddly enough, contrary to the case in the US and Western Europe, fear of autism or other developmental disorders is not nearly as major a driver of antivaccine sentiment, although there are a number of common conspiracy theories.

Here’s one example:

Romanian discussions directly blame the U.S. for purposefully infecting people with HIV using polio vaccines. Users create a direct link between vaccines and widespread HIV in Romanian orphanages. In the same sense, users claim that vaccines are being used against the Romanian populations. According to members of the anti-vaccination sentiment, vaccines against polio and chickenpox are used in Romania, which are not used in the U.S. anymore.

Clearly, Romanians have been listening too much to Dr. Leonard Horowitz. I will say one thing about this UNICEF report that makes me question its validity is the fact that in a table entitled Common arguments by influencers: Romanian speaking, UNICEF described Left Brain/Right Brain as “Autism news science & opinion, Anti-Vax leaning. Um, no. Left Brain/Right Brain is an ally in the campaign to refute antivaccine misinformation. It is not in any way, shape, or form and antivaccine blog, or the least bit sympathetic to the antivaccine viewpoint.

In any case, whatever the cause of the decline in MMR uptake, poverty and neglect, antivaccine sentiments, or some unholy combination of the two, Romania is a cautionary tale of just how easy it is to lose hard won ground in the fight against infectious disease. It’s also an example that worries me, because if you think it can’t happen here you are deluded, especially with Tom Price in charge of the Department of Health and Human Services saying things like this:

Basically, Price is signaling that he doesn’t think immunizations are a federal responsibility. Given his membership in the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), an organization that is basically an Ayn Rand-worshiping John Birch Society disguised as a medical professional society that routinely publishes antivaccine misinformation in its journal, as well HIV/AIDS denialism and other pseudoscience, it’s not at all surprising that Price would think that way.

While it’s true that states set the laws setting school vaccine mandates, but they rely on the work of the CDC to know what the latest science-based recommendations are for vaccine coverage upon which they base their mandates. Also, Price’s view ignores the fact that viruses and bacteria do not respect arbitrary lines on a map that separate states. The federal government, although not primarily responsible for vaccine requirements, nonetheless plays a critical role in vaccine policy. Given that Donald Trump has consistently expressed antivaccine sentiments over the last decade and Tom Price seems to think that the federal government has little role in vaccine policy, I fear that Romania is a warning to us. It’s a warning that, I fear, we will not heed.

Comments

  1. #1 Ovidiu
    Romania
    March 21, 2017

    Hey Orac,
    As the local token skeptic I can tell you more (and even more on email).
    In 2009 the Health Ministry bungled the HPV vaccination campaign by incorrectly communicating, ordering both types of vaccines (Gardasil and Cervarix) and generally being idiotic.
    This emboldened the local antivax position, not vaccination was discussed on TV as a reasonable choice with medical support.
    Doctors were insufficiently informed about what the HPV vaccine does, so they said it’s better to abstain.
    The campaign failed with under 5% vaccination coverage for HPV
    Since that time, antivax ideas have been spreading consistently (combined with increased access to internet, mommy forums etc.
    In 2012 a family physician wrote an antivax book regurgitating all the western books and contributing mostly nothing. This spread as well as the book was provided for free online.
    A local well known public figure became very antivax and started spouting conspiracy over conspiracy. Every idiotic stance is being regurgitated in the tabloid press.
    Mommy groups started getting infected with antivaxxers, dedicated blogs started to pop-up.
    Vaccination coverage started dropping since 2009 so now we are seeing that manifested (a separate epidemic happened in 2011 for rubella with 20k cases for mostly young people (not infants). A measles one happened as well, 7000 cases with 85% unvaccinated cases. These were mostly unrelated to antivax sentiments and more of a remnant of previous campaigns that were inefficient (RO didn’t have MMR before 2004 and 2 doses for measles (monovalent) were only started in the late 90s.

    This specific epidemic (2016-2017) is more closely tied with antivax sentiments and while it hits a lot of under-served populations it is well spread into urban populations.
    And FYI, underprivileged parents will still avoid vaccinating in some cases, because the antivax sentiment has reached “controversy” levels and they are aware it might cause autism.
    Even autism organizations will not vehemently deny the link between MMR and autism because the parents they serve believe it.
    The idiot press, some doctors, mommy blogs and facebook groups are major antivax influences
    There are 17 deaths now, 3800 cases, epidemic seems nowhere close to ending (an extra 300 cases reported last week) and parents are still somewhat hesitant.
    A major, major part of this is due to the Ministry of Health that since the HPV campaign has been extremely hesitant in making ANY kind of information campaign.
    A law is now in development hell (has been for two years) that will make this interesting to see. There are two versions, one of which mandates vaccination, the other one mandates information sessions with parents.

    I will gladly give you more color if you want it, it’s a tragic story I’ve been trying to prevent for years…

  2. #2 Rebecca Fisher
    That London
    March 21, 2017

    The brainz trust at AoA were frantically handwaving this away as fake news / malnutrition / deaths in the vaccinated in the comments a couple of weeks ago.

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2017/03/dachel-wake-up-google-snooze.html

    Despicable people.

  3. #3 prn
    March 21, 2017

    I don’t engage in vax politics, we have our shots.

    It would be interesting to see salvage treatment recommendations from MDs involved in integrative medicine with respect to nutrients particularly vitamin C, D3 and zinc for the most rapid resolutions possible of severe cases.

    Personally, I view the measles deaths as unnecessary, even at the late date of severe morbidity because of the tremendous status improvements routinely observed with an adequate IV vitamin C series. This not a substitute for prevention or primary care, it’s a salvage treatment, requiring some expense and effort just to maintain a prolonged infusion, or series of them. A number of real MD doctors have seen prompt recoveries from patients near death, yet they are always ignored. It’s neither superstition nor rocket science.

  4. #4 MI Dawn
    March 21, 2017

    @prn: and if you could kindly post double-blinded studies showing that as proof that it’s effective in treating ANYTHING, much less the measles, that would be very helpful. Otherwise, it’s anecdotes. Unreliable information.

  5. #5 Paul Beard
    March 21, 2017

    Interesting exchange between a journalist and a government spokesman at a recent press conference in Hungary.
    Q. Can we expect a measles epidemic like Romania ?
    A. No.
    Q Why ?
    A. Our vaccination rates are very high and the Romanian outbreak shows why that’s so important.

    Later television coverage said that vaccination rates are about 50% in Romania and over 95% in Hungary.

  6. #6 Chris Hickie
    March 21, 2017

    Heck, in the not-to-distant past, California had a horrible measles outbreak during 1988-90:

    “During 1988 through 1990, California experienced its worst measles epidemic in more than a decade, with 16,400 reported cases, 3,390 hospital admissions, and 75 deaths. More than half of the patients were younger than 5 years; the highest incidence was among infants younger than 12 months. The epidemic centered in low-income Hispanic communities in southern and central California. The major cause of the epidemic was low immunization levels among preschool-aged children and young adults. Rates of complications, admission to hospital, and death were surprisingly high. Outbreak control efforts met with indeterminate success. Problems with these efforts included insufficient funding early in the epidemic and disappointing public response to community-based immunization campaigns. The cost of medical care and outbreak control for the epidemic is conservatively estimated at $30.9 million. Unless the level of immunization in preschool-aged children is increased, this type of epidemic will probably recur.”

    This was worse than the current Romanian outbreak. Sadly, it should have driven home how important vaccines are early on to some anti-vaccine pediatricians in SoCal, but it didn’t as they still continue their anti-vax stupidity.

  7. #7 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    March 21, 2017

    Seventeen deaths and all unvaccinated: https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0312/859093-measles/ Policy has changed to vaccinate nine month-olds which makes that booster even more important but seems as though the uptake of the second dose is very poor. Romania is in for a rough ride and of course such an epidemic (affecting some of the Roma population) means spread to other countries.

  8. #8 Daniela Ilicenco
    Romania
    March 21, 2017

    You should probably thank Oliva Steer AntiVax movement activist.

  9. #9 Ellie
    Still on the green side of the grass
    March 21, 2017

    Romania could definitely happen here, between the anti-science people in the government and the drive to deprive the working poor of health care coverage. I do not believe we should feel safe at all, and we should pay careful attention to what has happened in Romania.

    When I had measles, I wasn’t having fun, or playing board games. I was sick with a fever that brought on delirium, and had to stay in darkened rooms for what seemed to a 4 year old, to be forever. I couldn’t pull the shades and look out of the windows until the street lights came on. It is not a disease that I would wish on any person, and certainly not a child.

    Why do these anti-vaxxers hate their fellow human beings so much?

  10. #10 Dorit Reiss
    March 21, 2017

    This article from a little back gives some color about the local anti vaccine movement: http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-society/in-romania-where-infant-mortality-meets-anti-vaccination-movement

    And thanks, Ovidiu, for that other info.

    And I disagree with the criticism with Price’s comment. He was asked about mandates, and his response reflected the mainstream view – and was different than AASP’s position that opposes mandates. I was relieved to hear it, and see it as mandates focused only.

    And frankly, I don’t think we want the Trump
    Administration stepping into vaccines mandates. I agree we need the federal framework and funding, but I don’t think that’s what Prive was talking of – that’s not the question he was faced with.

  11. #11 Eric Lund
    March 21, 2017

    Romania could definitely happen here, between the anti-science people in the government and the drive to deprive the working poor of health care coverage.

    Co-signed. Were I in charge of such things, I would include intentional denial of access (real access, not just “you can have this if you can pay for it”, as is too often the case in the US–by that standard, I have access to a Ferrari, but I can’t actually afford to drive one) to health care in the list of crimes against humanity.

    What makes it worse is the lack of empathy among the people in charge of the US. They seem to have no sense of “but for the grace of $DEITY” until it happens to them or a close relative, by which point the stolen horse has been taken across the state line. So they want dismantle the system that keeps them and their loved ones healthy. Ironically, the most likely reason for this effort to fail is that some of them think it doesn’t do enough to dismantle the system.

  12. #12 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 21, 2017

    I stated this on some of the other recent threads but India has started a very aggressive vaccination program for measles and rubella (I am not sure why mumps is not included). They plan on vaccinating 410 million 6 month to 15 year old children over the next two years. India averages 59,000 deaths from measles complications every year.

    Not vaccinating for measles is a world issue (India problem is more cost than anti-vaxxers).

  13. #13 brian
    March 21, 2017

    @MI Dawn, you asked prn to cite a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of Vitamin C supplementation in severe cases of measles. Here you go:

    https://academic.oup.com/tropej/article/52/4/302/1621727/Vitamin-E-and-Vitamin-C-Supplementation-does-not?searchresult=1

    As you must have suspected, supplementation with Vitamin C (and E) was no more effective than placebo. That’s OK, though, because AoA readers can tell you that all those lucky Romanian (and Belgian and Austrian) kids who were caught up in the current outbreak have magically strengthened their immune systems and reduced their risk of cancer–and that’s especially true for 17 of them.

  14. #14 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 21, 2017

    We know what prn is going to say, don’t we?

    ‘200 mg twice daily for 6 days isn’t enough!!!!!!!1!!! You need 18 mega-grams 17 times a day for a month!!!! I’ve seen it hundreds of times!!!!!!111!’

  15. #15 Politicalguineapig
    March 21, 2017

    Brian:That’s OK, though, because AoA readers can tell you that all those lucky Romanian (and Belgian and Austrian) kids who were caught up in the current outbreak have magically strengthened their immune systems and reduced their risk of cancer–and that’s especially true for 17 of them.

    Hard to develop cancer when you’re dead, I suppose.
    Incidentally, why is it that AoA and the drinking moms hate kids with cancer almost as much as they hate kids with autism? Is it a sort of unconscious Darwinism or is it just that they’re hateful people in general?

  16. #16 Eric Lund
    March 21, 2017

    Is it a sort of unconscious Darwinism or is it just that they’re hateful people in general?

    These choices are not mutually exclusive.

  17. #17 Denice Walter
    March 21, 2017

    In other anti-vax news…

    Jake Crosby, *MPH* ( Autism Investigated) *cough* features Alex Jones on Vaccines ( they’re CANCER -btw-)

    Interesting how people decide which sources are meaningful or are ‘fake news’.

  18. #18 Denice Walter
    March 21, 2017

    In other woo-news….

    WBAI’s website’s schedule does not mention Null’s show at all: the noon hour lists a replay of Democracy now M-Th and the Aware Show on Friday.

    Hopefully this is not a temporary change

  19. #19 Lawrence
    March 21, 2017

    As I suspected a few years back, Young Master Crosby is sliding down the rabbit hole.

    It’s only a matter of time now before he goes full-Whale.to (Holocaust denial can’t be far behind).

  20. #20 prn
    March 21, 2017

    vitamin C “skeptics” @4, 13, 14
    As NNT approaches 1 and when the benefits are quick, the need and value of a double blind RCT goes down and the ethical question of equipoise rises faster.

    Sufficient information for dosing and reliable treatment methodology for IV antiviral treatment of has been published for over 50 years for any half decent medico to understand. I daresay that sufficient information has been available for the 21st century, to enable even nonmedical persons to reliably specify or utilize IV vitamin C curatively for acute viremias.

    In dealing with vitamin C issues IRL, I sometimes have to consider what combination of the 4 horsemen of medicine are present any given medical situation:
    ignorance and arrogance, cupidity and stupidity

  21. #21 Lawrence
    March 21, 2017

    Then, by all means, you should be on the first plane to Romania…we look forward to your published treatment results.

  22. #22 JustaTech
    March 21, 2017

    Lovely. So prn @20 thinks that every doctor in the past fifty years is stupid and arrogant to the point of actively allowing patients to die rather than trying Vit C?

    What a bizarre and depressing outlook on life, to think that everyone is that horrible.

    Prn, did you ever consider that doctors have tried IV vit C in desperate cases and it didn’t work? Why keep trying something that didn’t work, that doesn’t have good evidence behind it?

  23. #23 Dorit Reiss
    March 21, 2017

    I’d be curious to know what that information about IV vitamin C treatment is. I’ve seen articles from the 1930s and 1940s that were not really strong.

  24. #24 Catherine Hall
    Guernsey
    March 21, 2017

    The ‘Brady Bunch gambit’ is possibly one of the most disingenuous in the anti vaccine armoury. Of course a family show portrayed the majority experience of measles. It wouldn’t be much of a comedy show that had its characters dying tragic deaths. As a child in the early sixties I had measles, I was unwell for a few days and had time off school, I don’t remember much about it. Yes that was what most of us experienced. Yes my parents never made much of it. Measles for most of us was no big deal. BUT our parents didn’t have measles parties they kept us in quarantine and tried not to let the disease spread. Everyone knew that measles could be a killer, everyone knew of someone for whom measles had not been a mild illness.

  25. #25 M.C. Mayo
    Toronto
    March 21, 2017

    My comment is not intellectual, scientific, nor even pithy. I just want to say: AAAUUUUUUGGGGGHHHH!! Anti-Vaxxers, stop your insanity and ignorance. And the most dangerous is Trump, Price, and their ilk.

  26. #26 JustaTech
    March 21, 2017

    Here’s a counterpoint to the “Brady Bunch gambit”: Pink Floyd’s “Comfortably Numb”, which includes the lyrics “When I was a child I had a fever, my hands swelled [felt?] like two balloons.”
    It’s not treated as a hugely unusual thing, to have a fever so high the child hallucinates. (Or a disease that causes your hands to swell; it’s not clear from the lyrics.)

    So clearly there was a lot more misery involved than was shown in a sitcom.

  27. #27 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    March 21, 2017

    It’s not treated as a hugely unusual thing, to have a fever so high the child hallucinates. (Or a disease that causes your hands to swell; it’s not clear from the lyrics.)

    It’s definitely “felt” and I have had fevers which are perfectly described by those lyrics.

  28. #28 Eric Lund
    March 21, 2017

    It’s not treated as a hugely unusual thing, to have a fever so high the child hallucinates.

    But if you remember the story line, Pink’s father died during World War II. So Pink would have had this condition in the 1940s or early 1950s at the latest, which was before the Salk vaccine became available. So it would have been common at the time, or at least more common than for someone of my generation. I would expect that a fever high enough to cause hallucinations would be serious if not potentially fatal, but in those days there wasn’t much Pink’s mother could have done about it. If it were my kid today, I’d be taking the kid to the emergency room.

  29. #29 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 21, 2017

    @ prn –

    I got no dog in this fight. I have never worked in the medical field, nor for any pharmaceutical company, in any capacity. I was a government contractor, but none of my contracts were with any agency that would be involved in the medical or pharmaceutical industry. I own no individual shares in any pharmaceutical company (they may be included in some of my 401k choices but I have no direct knowledge of which or how much).

    The only reason I care about the idea that vitamins may or may not cure anything is intelectual curiosity and nothing else.

    You have done nothing to shift my belief in this matter, and I’m the easiest to move on this issue.

    Bring evidence, if you have any. But if all you have is anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims, don’t bother. Tell me exactly what protocol works in exactly what circumstances, and in what per cent of cases, and how we can know those numbers are true.

    Real, verifiable numbers don’t lie. You got any?

  30. #30 Craig Thomas
    March 21, 2017

    On March 21, 2017, prn spouted:

    “… nutrients particularly vitamin C, D3 and zinc for the most rapid resolutions possible of severe cases.”

    Sorry, I’m sure this is a very dumb question, but is this a treatment that specifically targets measles?
    Or is this more like,
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/X2yO0Ir2PmE/maxresdefault.jpg

  31. #31 Craig Thomas
    March 21, 2017

    Supplementary question – why aren’t you over in Romania making a fortune at the same time as reducing measles mortality to 0%?

  32. #32 Politicalguineapig
    March 21, 2017

    Craig: Don’t encourage PRN. Remember Homeopaths without borders?

    Eric Lund: Ugh, I know. If you want some quality entertainment, you should check out the site today- they’re all freaking out over the new muppet on Sesame Street.

  33. #33 Narad
    March 21, 2017

    It would be interesting to see salvage treatment recommendations from MDs involved in integrative medicine with respect to nutrients particularly vitamin C, D3 and zinc for the most rapid resolutions possible of severe cases.

    How rapid would that be?

  34. #34 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 22, 2017

    “Remember Homeopaths without borders?”
    They have no borders because they diluted them away.
    Hey, maybe they have the answer to world peace – 30C dilutions of all the armaments and munitions.

    Ellie: Your measles experience was similar to mine, the difference was that I was entirely bedbound.

    • #35 Wzrd1
      United States
      March 22, 2017

      @Old Rockin’ Dave #34, as long as we start with 30c dilutions of nuclear weapon cores. 🙂

      @all touting vitamin C, it doesn’t work, it never worked, it never will work. The same for vitamin A.
      I did read some interesting studies with cold virus and vitamin D lowering infection by a massive 12%. Get some sun, folks!

      @herr doktor bimler, true. Platypus venom can be pretty nasty, leaving one with chronic pain for life.

  35. #36 Wzrd1
    United States
    March 22, 2017

    So, Mr Price feels that Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is no longer in force?

  36. #37 Chris Hickie
    March 22, 2017

    Mark Twain didn’t portray measles as benign when it struck his town and then him. From his autobiography:

    In 1845, when I was ten years old, there was an epidemic of measles in the town and it made a most alarming slaughter among the little people. There was a funeral almost daily, and the mothers of the town were nearly demented with fright. My mother was greatly troubled. She worried over Pamela and Henry and me, and took constant and ex traordinary pains to keep us from coming into contact with the contagion. But upon reflection I believed that her judgment was at fault. It seemed to me that I could improve upon it if left to my own devices. I cannot remember now whether I was frightened about the measles or not, but I clearly remember that I grew very tired of the suspense I suffered on account of being continually under the threat of death. I remember that I got so weary of it and so anxious to have the matter settled one way or the other, and promptly, that this anxiety spoiled my days and my nights. I had no pleasure in them. I made up my mind to end this suspense and be done with it. Will Bowen was dangerously ill with the measles and I thought I would go down there and catch them. I entered the house by the front way and slipped along through rooms and halls, keeping sharp watch against discovery, and at last I reached Will’s bed-chamber in the rear of the house on the second floor and got into it un captured. But that was as far as my victory reached. His mother caught me there a moment later and snatched me out of the house and gave me a most competent scolding and drove me away. She was so scared that she could hardly get her words out, and her face was white. I saw that I must manage better next time, and I did. I hung about the lane at the rear of the house and watched through cracks in the fence until I was con vinced that the conditions were favorable; then I slipped through the back yard and up the back way and got into the room and into the bed with Will Bowen without being observed. I don’t know how long I was in the bed. I only remember that Will Bowen, as society, had no value for me, for he was too sick to even notice that I was there. When I heard his mother coming I covered up my head, but that device was a failure. It was dead summer-time—the cover was nothing more than a limp blanket or sheet, and anybody could see that there were two of us under it. It didn’t remain two very long. Mrs. Bowen snatched me out of the bed and conducted me home herself, with a grip on my collar which she never loosened until she delivered me into my mother’s hands along with her opinion of that kind of a boy.

    It was a good case of measles that resulted. It brought me within a shade of death’s door. It brought me to where I no longer took any interest in anything, but, on the contrary, felt a total absence of interest—which was most placid and enchanting. I have never enjoyed anything in my life any more than I en joyed dying that time. I was, in effect, dying. The word had been passed and the family notified to assemble around the bed and see me off. I knew them all. There was no doubtfulness in my vision. They were all crying, but that did not affect me. I took but the vaguest interest in it, and that merely because I was the centre of all this emotional attention and was gratified by it and vain of it.

    When Dr. Cunningham had made up his mind that nothing more could be done for me he put bags of hot ashes all over me. He put them on my breast, on my wrists, on my ankles; and so, very much to his astonishment—and doubtless to my regret—he dragged me back into this world and set me going again. (from The North American Review Volume 186, 1907, pages 168-169)

  37. #38 BA
    March 22, 2017

    @M.C. Mayo #25

    My comment is not intellectual, scientific, nor even pithy. I just want to say: AAAUUUUUUGGGGGHHHH!! Anti-Vaxxers, stop your insanity and ignorance. And the most dangerous is Trump, Price, and their ilk.

    Not intellectual? Your comment contains an Sm protein RNA bonding site in Saccharomyces cerevisiae!
    (AUUUUUUG)

  38. #39 BA
    March 22, 2017

    I suppose that means your comment could be replicated given enough beer.

    • #40 Wzrd1
      United States
      March 22, 2017

      @BA #37, there just isn’t enough beer for me to replicate that sequence.
      I guess I’ll just stick with my whiskey. 😉

      But, on a serious note, it never ceases to amaze me what can be made with a mere four letters. 🙂

      Although, from a genetic standpoint, one creature I do find above and beyond the call of cool. A hint, the male has the usual XY chromosome pair, but also a ZZ/ZW scheme and its venom is being studied for longer lasting insulin.

  39. #41 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 22, 2017

    A hint, the male has the usual XY chromosome pair, but also a ZZ/ZW scheme and its venom is being studied for longer lasting insulin.

    Wow! What bathroom would they have to use in North Carolina?

    • #42 Wzrd1
      United States
      March 22, 2017

      Whatever one was selected for them, likely, a stream. 🙂

  40. #43 dingo199
    March 22, 2017

    @Chris Hickie #35
    But… you see Mark Twain enjoyed his near death experience with measles – that means measles must be wonderful!

    Oh, and if Vit C doesn’t work, don’t forget that the antivaxers will push Vitamin A at everyone.
    Now there is a bit of justification for that, since it can reduce the mortality from measles in those who are deficient. It is possible that there may be some degree of that in Romania, but that is no excuse to promote the idea that vaccination is unecessary.

  41. #44 prn
    JustaTech@22
    March 22, 2017

    Lovely. So prn @20 thinks that every doctor in the past fifty years is stupid and arrogant to the point of actively allowing patients to die rather than trying Vit C?…What a bizarre and depressing outlook on life, to think that everyone is that horrible.

    Jumping to quite an erroneous conclusion there JT. There’s a range and various combinations possible. Hopefully the most negative dr versions are the apex of a pyramid, but other distributions may be possible. I try to be comprehensive on the categories or possibilities.

    Everyone is born ignorant, including drs. That is my experience and usual starting point with most people and drs, in fact on nutrients.

    However, I have run into enough clinician arrogance to not discount its potential presence. Also I’m sorry (for me/us) to say, my family has run into doctors that I would definitely put into the homicidal category, due to varying degrees of incompetence, greed, arrogance and willfulness. You guys even have your own list(s) like that…

    Prn, did you ever consider that doctors have tried IV vit C in desperate cases and it didn’t work?

    Yes, I have. The answer is pretty uniformly that they have not tried IV C at all, much less in the most promising combinations, and beg off on their educational b/g too. The supposed “big C treatments” mainstream authors have “tried” are so homeopathic that one is left wondering whether they did any pior research on the subject, are incapable of reading and/or understanding prior results, were co-opted, or simply chickened out from the start.

    Basically, most drs I’ve heard, seem to have gotten their negavitamin “insights” from even more unreliable sources, including malicious and simply uninformed gossip snowballing through the generations, and misunderstandings about the cumulative experience and literature out there.

  42. #45 Panacea
    March 22, 2017

    Yes, prn, everyone is born ignorant.

    Doctors get over it (ie they go to med school). You haven’t. You remain ignorant of the fact you have to provide evidence, peer reviewed evidence, that IV Vit C does what you claim it does. You never do.

  43. #46 Old Rockin' Dave
    March 22, 2017

    The prevalence of HIV in Romanian orphanages mentioned may be a self-inflicted injury.
    Under Ceascescu it became a standard practice to give orphans transfusions to “strengthen” them or cure any various and sundry conditions. Of course the blood was never screened and the IV catheters and tubing was reused without serious sterilization.
    It wouldn’t entirely surprise me to learn that this continued for some time after the overthrow, even down to today.

  44. #47 herr doktor bimler
    March 22, 2017

    the male has the usual XY chromosome pair, but also a ZZ/ZW scheme and its venom is being studied for longer lasting insulin.
    Wow! What bathroom would they have to use in North Carolina?

    Like the sleeping habits of 800-lb gorillas, any bathroom they like.

  45. #48 doug
    March 23, 2017

    Wzrd1, vitamin A supplementation is regarded as worthwhile in cases of suspected deficiency in preventing (not on its own) & treating measles

    see Management of a Measles Epidemic from Medecins Sans Frontieres
    http://refbooks.msf.org/msf_docs/en/measles/measles_en.pdf

  46. #49 aairfccha
    March 23, 2017
  47. #50 Peebs
    March 23, 2017

    Vitamin A is rather dangerous to OD on. I have no idea where or when I picked up this, probably useless bit of minutiae; but don’t eat Polar Bear liver..
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_A

  48. #51 Politicalguineapig
    March 23, 2017

    Wzrd1@38: After the Bush era, none of the articles apply anymore. We were lucky that Barack Obama was a sweet summer child and chose to govern like the bill of rights applied, but now we have the dictatorship everyone wanted.

  49. #52 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2017

    don’t eat Polar Bear liver..
    Or walruses’. Or seals’.
    The hypervitaminosis A that killed Mertz on Mawson’s Antarctica expedition was from eating the sledge-dogs’ livers.

  50. #53 TBruce
    March 23, 2017

    I am enjoying the silence from NitWitO Reporter.
    Guess he thought his repeated claim that measles is no big deal would be sorta out of place here.

  51. #54 rs
    March 23, 2017

    The greatest danger of polar bear liver is dealing with the rest of the polar bear before you can get to the liver.

  52. #55 Manuela
    March 23, 2017

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11869601/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21154399/?i=5&from=/11869601/related
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18568439/
    Correct me if I’m wrong but in the last study it shows that vaccination and high dose VIT A had the same effect of reducing complications…?
    All studies showed no negative side effects from the VIT A supplementation but the dose had to be quite high to have a positive effect.

  53. #56 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    OK, I’ll correct you. You’re wrong.

    First of all, if you vaccinate your children, you PREVENT them from getting the disease in the first place. It’s hard to get complications from a disease you never have.

    Secondly, only one of these articles mentions Vitamin A and vaccination. What they mean by reducing complications is that if you are vaccinated and get the disease anyway, the illness is usually much milder, with less risk of complication.

    All three indicate Vitamin A has benefit in people who actually get the disease, but none say or imply that VAS is preferred over vaccination.

    The problem with Vitamin A is that it is a fat soluble vitamin. That means it is stored in body fat. So care with total dosing is essential to avoid toxic and potentially fatal effects.

  54. #57 TBruce
    March 23, 2017

    Vitamin A may help with the symptoms of measles but there is no evidence that it prevents the rare but devastating complication of subacute sclerosing pan-encephalitis (SSPE). Vaccination does prevent SSPE.
    So why bother with Vitamin A?

  55. #58 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    I am enjoying the silence from NitWitO Reporter.

    She seems to have horked something up at the end. I haven’t bothered.

  56. #59 Chris
    March 23, 2017

    Manuela, please provide the PubMed indexed studies that children in North America and Europe are chronically deficit in vitamin A.

    Then provide the verifiable economic studies that it is cheaper to treat measles, mumps and rubella in the USA than to prevent them with two MMR doses. Make sure that the documentation has the same rigorous quality as this:
    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States

  57. #60 Manuela
    March 24, 2017

    Thank you for your responses.
    At no point did I indicate that using the vaccine would not be beneficial, I was referring to a previous statement about whether using vitamin A would be beneficial for reducing complications of the disease. Also, given that vaccines are not always 100% effective, it would be beneficial to understand options that are available should an outbreak occur. The studies clearly showed no negative side effect from using Vit A at the doses in the trials, so toxicity would most likely not be an issue. Also, you have to consider that for those in the population who are immunocompromised and are unable to use vaccines, it’s useful to know if Drs are informed of how to help them through acute illnesses.
    As far as I understand, those that are most at risk of complications are those who are undernourished, so it’s a worthwhile investigation. Given the state of many western diets, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a few deficiencies floating around among the American youth but I have no science to back that up. Although, there have been recent occurrences of scurvy reported due to poor dietary habits in western countries so perhaps it’s worth looking into the VIT A situation there.
    I was raised in Africa and I don’t live in America or Europe, so I’m very interested in the understanding more about VIT A deficiency and potential therapeutic benefits.
    Chris, while I understand your interest in understanding the cost of vaccination vs non vaccination, considering that I never debated whether there was a negative cost in vaccinating, I’ll refrain from responding to that. It is an interesting study though and I will keep it on file. I’m very interested in the science on vaccine safety and other therapies. I’m asking questions, so please don’t assume I’m anti anything. Both my children are vaccinated, as am I but I think it’s important to have open discourse about these topics without labelling people or jumping down throats.

  58. #62 Panacea
    March 24, 2017

    Manuela: Granted, many Americans eat a horrible diet. However, the real problem from that is obesity rather than malnutrition. Most Americans get all the vitamins and minerals they need from whatever food they eat because many foods are enriched with vitamins. True vitamin deficiencies aren’t that common.

    You say you are interested in the science of vaccine safety; that’s a curious thing to say and I have to ask what prompted the interest. Vaccines have a very long safety record as a whole, so people who profess this interest are usually anti-vax because it gives them an outlet to demand “safe vaccines” as a tool to avoid vaccinating their children.

    I also have to ask; did this interest in vaccine safety come up before or after you vaccinated your children? Because many anti vaxxers use the “I vaccinated my kids gambit”, not bothering to mention they didn’t become anti vax until after they’d vaccinated, or that they vaccinated because they had no choice if they wanted their kids to go to school, summer camp, or participate in sports.

  59. #63 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 24, 2017

    Well, golly. I mostly ignored NWOR, because I thought she was just a minor loon, but she makes YouTube videos, and she names names, but not me. I missed my shot at YouTube glory.

    I guess I’m gonna have to step up my game. Sure, MJD and Sockboy don’t like me, but they only say so here. I guess I just don’t come across as evil as some of you other minions. Even PGP says I seem a nice enough person, despite being a Dixie-living, suburban dwelling, pick up truck driving, gun owning, ex-Air Force male, who has, in over 40 years of voting, been known to pull the R lever on the odd occasion.

    Maybe someday I’ll annoy the right loon and be mocked on some other site.

  60. #64 Chris
    March 24, 2017

    Manuela, never make claims without backing them up. Your backsliding and moving goalposts does not substitute for the citations I asked for.

  61. #65 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    Well, golly. I mostly ignored NWOR, because I thought she was just a minor loon

    She struck me as a poor man’s Adriana Gaimondes.

  62. #66 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    March 24, 2017

    She struck me as a poor man’s Adriana Gaimondes.

    I see she’s a we like another crank we know. Her butthurt is very obvious.

  63. #67 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    Her butthurt is very obvious.

    The “Alternative Cosmology” playlist is also sadly half-hearted.

  64. #68 Craig Thomas
    March 24, 2017

    On March 22, 2017, prn joked,

    “Basically, most drs I’ve heard, seem to have gotten their negavitamin “insights” from even more unreliable sources, including malicious and simply uninformed gossip snowballing through the generations, and misunderstandings about the cumulative experience and literature out there.”

    Good one!
    Doctors are to be condemned for not getting their “insights” from lunatic crank material on the internet.

  65. #69 Manuela
    March 24, 2017

    Why do you have to label people who ask questions anti vaxxers? I vaccinated my children by choice, after weighing the risks and benefits with my healthcare provider. It is not a requirement for children to be vaccinated in order to attend school where I live. I read the safety studies because I’m interested in science. I became interested in science because I read research for my studies in psychology. I have many, varied interests. I also love learning. I know vaccination has a long safety record but I also know there is a risk to any medical procedure and I don’t take any medicine without reading and learning about it. If it’s possible to make vaccines any safer, I think we should look into that and not be closed minded. I try not to eat MSG or aluminium, so, no, I’m not thrilled that it’s in our vaccines. I have had some very severe reactions to antibiotics (I almost died from penicillin at 5yrs old). I am now very careful with antibiotics and only take them when I feel like I might die if I don’t. In stark contrast to that, pencillin saved my son’s life at just 3 weeks old, after he developed a serious infection. I want to understand all the science, not just the science that one side or another chooses to present. I don’t base health choices on blogs or propaganda from pro or anti vaxxers, I base health choices on research and discussion with my GP. I was raised in Africa. Ive seen 3rd world. Chris, I didn’t make any statement other than VIT A may be useful for helping unvaccinated people avoid complications from measles, and I backed that statement up with 3 studies. I am not interested in the cost of vaccination and did not make any statements about this. I thought this blog would be a good place to have some questions answered or to share interesting information but if it’s going to be a place where people are horrible to each other and make unsubstantiated assumptions about other people’s intentions, then I shall ask my questions elsewhere. Pushing your point of view in a condescending or aggressive manner makes me wonder about your intentions. Can’t we have a chat and be nice? On the note about malnutrition, after listening to a talk by a microbiologist from the American Gut Project, it is possible to be deficient in some vitamins because the microbes in your gut play some role in making some vitamins. (So your nutritional statues can be influenced by your gut bacteria)I think that was mostly B vitamins and not fat soluble vitamins like vitamin A but I can’t remember all the details from that talk and you are probably not interested in that.

    • #70 Wzrd1
      United States
      March 24, 2017

      I try not to eat MSG or aluminium, so, no, I’m not thrilled that it’s in our vaccines.

      So, you don’t eat eggs, cheeses or tomatoes? MSG is present in all of those. You also are remarkable in that you avoid a metal that is present in 8% of the planetary crust!

      As for vitamin A, one would have to go through great effort to be deficient in that nutrient in western nations. Vitamin D deficiency isn’t as uncommon, largely due to climate and people tending to remain indoors much of the time.

      As for vaccine safety, there is always research that is ongoing to improve vaccine safety, stability and efficacy. To claim otherwise is to ignore that research, which is published on a regular basis.

      As for the gut microbiota, that’s an ongoing field of research as well, one that was largely ignored for generations, but now is being actively studied. To make some form of diagnosis, based upon the sparse data currently available is to engage in yet another form of quackery. See the numerous advertisements for probiotics, which make all manner of unsubstantiated claims, which are available online, in stores, supermarkets and even on television advertisements.

  66. #71 Chris
    March 24, 2017

    Manuela, you brought an old anti-vax trope that claims measles is a mild disease if the kid has enough Vitamin A. Your three studies have nothing to do with most of the outbreaks discussed on this blog. And definitely not for any outbreaks in Europe (where Romania is located) or North America (where this blog originates).

    Also, if you are going to make claims on treating measles, then you will have to provide the data that is a more viable alternative to preventing measles. I don’t care about your thoughts on costs, other than you brought up some ridiculous alternative to vaccination.

    If you don’t want the reactions you got, then I suggest you spend some time reading this blog to get familiar with the issues at hand. Or you can just stop writing paragraph free wall of texts that have nothing to do with the original article.

  67. #72 Manuela
    March 24, 2017

    Chris,
    I NEVER suggested that VItA was an alternative to vaccination. I said it may have some therapeutic benefit for those already exposed. I asked a question. My question related to three specific papers. I never said that I could avoid MSG or aluminium, I said I try to minimise my exposure. I made a decision to vaccinate, knowing the risk and benefit of that medical procedure. I made an informed choice. I read the published safety data and I read other published papers. I realise now that this blog is only for people who want to argue. I’ll move on.

  68. #73 Panacea
    March 24, 2017

    Manuela: I think thou doth protest too much.

    We already to look to make vaccines safer. Since calling for “safer vaccines” is an old anti vax trope, and some anti vaxers use the “reasonable argument” approach, and that’s what I see here. When you mix your discussion with issues like aluminum, MSG, and gut issues, it’s hard to take you seriously, that you are asking serious questions. Because if you were, you would just ask the question without mixing in all the other claptrap.

    Vitamin K is produced by our gut flora. The lack of bacteria in our gut is the reason why newborns need an injection of Vitamin K within an hour of birth; to prevent hemorraghic disease of the newborn. It’s why the ancient Hebrews waited 8 days to perform ritual circumcision. It takes that long for a newborn to develop their own Vit K supply to activate the coagulation cascade if necessary.

    Some B vitamins and folic acid are produced by these bacteria. However, if they were produced in sufficient amounts we would not need these vitamins in our diet. We would not have to worry about pernicious anemia, folic acid anemia, or neural tube defects during pregnancy.

    I’m skeptical of the American Gut Project. A reporter submitted a stool sample to them and another organization. The results were completely inverted. Says a lot about their validity. https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/dear-american-gut-ubiome-you-have-some-explaining-to-do/

    • #74 Wzrd1
      United States
      March 24, 2017

      Yeah, I’m with you, Panacea, on finding American Gut Project results dubious – to be gentle. That said, NIH has their own study.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project
      They’re doing good science.
      I’m sure Trump will Trump that one up.
      Then again, he lost a lot of support with his healthcareless healthcare plan battle.

  69. #75 Lee Miles
    March 24, 2017

    I thought this blog would be a good place to have some questions answered or to share interesting information…Nope. Not here.

    …but if it’s going to be a place where people are horrible to each other and make unsubstantiated assumptions about other people’s intentions…

    I couldn’t have said it better myself. You have described this blog’s comment section perfectly.

  70. #76 Chris
    March 24, 2017

    Lee Miles last last commented in 2010. Go away Travis.

  71. #77 Dangerous Bacon
    March 24, 2017

    Why are you all being so mean to Manuela for Just Asking Questions?

    “I realise now that this blog is only for people who want to argue. I’ll move on.”

    So true. Why can’t we make nice and just agree with each other? That’s the M.O. on every other website I’ve ever visited, especially the antivax ones.

  72. #78 Chris
    March 24, 2017

    Manuela: “I said it may have some therapeutic benefit for those already exposed.”

    Like we don’t know that? The three papers presented have no relationship with what is happening in Romania. An outbreak that is directly related to anti-vax campaigns by several groups. From an article that was quoted: “Religious organisations and public figures have led recent anti-vaccination campaigns”

    Orac summed up his article with: “In any case, whatever the cause of the decline in MMR uptake, poverty and neglect, antivaccine sentiments, or some unholy combination of the two, Romania is a cautionary tale of just how easy it is to lose hard won ground in the fight against infectious disease.”

    You finished with: “I read the published safety data and I read other published papers.”

    I contend you did not do enough reading if you do not know the relative costs of treating versus preventing measles.

    Whinging on about treatments for something that should have been prevented is not helpful. Especially if it is one of the standard tropes by anti-vaccine folks trying to explain how Vitamin A is so wondrous that the vaccine is unnecessary.

  73. #79 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    March 25, 2017

    @Manuela:

    Why do you have to label people who ask questions anti vaxxers?

    Because the questions have been asked and answered already, yet those who are opposed to vaccines keep asking them, hoping the answers will change.

    If it’s possible to make vaccines any safer, I think we should look into that and not be closed minded.

    Do you honestly think this isn’t happening now? Research into vaccines is ongoing. This comment is another one typically used by antivaxxers.

    I thought this blog would be a good place to have some questions answered or to share interesting information but if it’s going to be a place where people are horrible to each other and make unsubstantiated assumptions about other people’s intentions, then I shall ask my questions elsewhere. Pushing your point of view in a condescending or aggressive manner makes me wonder about your intentions. Can’t we have a chat and be nice?

    Nice Tone trolling there, Manuela.
    You deny you’re anti-vaccination. The thing is, you came on here using arguments and claims that are typical of antivaxxers, including “you’re so mean”. I hate to be a bromide, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s most likely a duck. If you don’t want to be treated like an antivaxxer, don’t act like one.

  74. #80 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    March 26, 2017

    Drop dead, Travis.

    • #81 Orac
      March 26, 2017

      Sorry about that. Travis apparently doesn’t sleep (at least not overnight) and took advantage of the fact that my sleep is on a more conventional schedule. He was instantly recognizable because Marilyn Mann was a regular several years ago, someone I’ve met in person, someone who hasn’t commented in at least four years; so I knew right away it was Travis when I saw comments seemingly from her. Travis is gone again for now.

  75. […] Respectful Insolence (ScienceBlogs.com): Massive measles outbreak in Romania: A warning to the US? […]

  76. #83 doug
    March 28, 2017

    terryg another in the stinking heap of socks from the shit Travis J. Schwochert

  77. #84 james
    March 30, 2017

    China has one of the most vaccination compliant populations in the world. In fact, measles vaccine is mandatory. So why have they had over 700 measles outbreaks from 2009 and 2012 alone? The obvious answer is the the measles vaccines are simply NOT effective.

    A recent study published in PLoS titled, “Difficulties in eliminating measles and controlling rubella and mumps: a cross-sectional study of a first measles and rubella vaccination and a second measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination,” has brought to light the glaring ineffectiveness of two measles vaccines (measles–rubella (MR) or measles–mumps–rubella (MMR) ) in fulfilling their widely claimed promise of preventing outbreaks in highly vaccine compliant populations.

    According to the study,

    “The reported coverage of the measles-rubella (MR) or measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine is greater than 99.0% in Zhejiang province. However, the incidence of measles, mumps, and rubella remains high.” [emphasis added]
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/…/why-china-having-measles…
    Dying from measles is a sign of terrible nutrition and overall health.. Measles outbreaks increased in China as vaccination increased.. Another recent study, published in the highly authorative Bulletin of the World Health Organization, looked at recent measles occurrences throughout China and found that there were 707 measles outbreaks in the country recorded between 2009 and 2012, with a steep trend upwards in 2013: “The number of measles cases reported in the first 10 months of 2013 – 26 443 – was three times the number reported in the whole of 2012.” This is all the more odd considering that since 2009 “…the first dose of measles-virus-containing vaccine has reached more than 90% of the target population.” One would expect with increasing measles vaccine uptake there would result in a decrease in measles incidence.
    and for people who think the vaccin was responsible for anything look at this chart and the date where the vaccin came into effect
    http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/outbreaks-of-measles-in-vaccinated-children-intensifying/

  78. #85 Narad
    March 30, 2017

    “The reported coverage of the measles-rubella (MR) or measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine is greater than 99.0% in Zhejiang province. However, the incidence of measles, mumps, and rubella remains high.” [emphasis added]
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/…/why-china-having-measles…

    Perhaps you should read the paper before barfing up broken links and copypasta.

  79. #86 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2017

    China has one of the most vaccination compliant populations in the world. In fact, measles vaccine is mandatory. So why have they had over 700 measles outbreaks from 2009 and 2012 alone?

    I am SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED to encounter plagiarism from another lazy-assed cut-&-paste gobshite.

  80. #87 LouV
    France
    March 31, 2017

    and for people who think the vaccin was responsible for anything look at this chart and the date where the vaccin came into effect

    And you should you take a better look at this chart, which uses a well known trick : it measures deaths, not cases.
    Compare with this graph, which shows that cases and mortality don’t necessarily have the same evolution : http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XVcLQoVCgFM/U6IXVqNEBbI/AAAAAAAABCc/erlgz0Jcpa0/s1600/Measles+Cases+and+Mortality+1912-1974+-+Log+Scale.jpg
    Vaccines influence the number of cases ; they only influence the number of deaths indirectly. Also, these graphs don’t show other non-lethal sequelae of diseases.

  81. […] in public authorities.” Global health bloggers prefer language along the line of “anti-vaccine […]

  82. #89 Lawrence
    March 31, 2017

    It was also shown that official Chinese medical records touting vaccine coverage weren’t entirely accurate either……

  83. #90 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 31, 2017

    Vaccines influence the number of cases ; they only influence the number of deaths indirectly. Also, these graphs don’t show other non-lethal sequelae of diseases.

    You must be a pharma shill. It’s a well-known fact that with diseases, only death is bad, whereas with vaccines a two-hour sore arm is a catastrophe beyond all historical precedent.

  84. #91 Yvette Banicevich
    United Kingdom
    April 2, 2017

    To date, 16 deaths have been reported, all of which occurred in persons who were immunocompromised or had other co-morbidities. (ecdc.europa.eu) (In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional diseases or disorders co-occurring with (that is, concomitant or concurrent with) a primary disease or disorder; in the countable sense of the term, a comorbidity (plural comorbidities) is each additional disorder or disease.). At the time only 16 deaths but I can only assume that the latest death had similar health issues. Not that a death is acceptable but would these children have died if they caught a cold – this we do no know. All we know is that they are fighting back with the usual manipulation of statistics.

    • #92 Wzrd1
      United States
      April 2, 2017

      Well, measles *is* a wee bit rougher than a cold. Colds don’t have a 30% complication rate.
      Those complications can also cause death, without a comorbid condition.

      I think a better example would’ve been to wonder if those who died would’ve survived an influenza infection, which of course, is a more significant infection than a common cold.

  85. #93 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    April 2, 2017

    To date, 16 deaths have been reported, all of which occurred in persons who were immunocompromised or had other co-morbidities.

    Yeah, and I’ll bet they all deserved to die. They were only dragging down the whole species. If everybody caught measles and most of them died, think how much heathlier the world would be. Why, we could get rid of the sickest 1/3 of our population. And they would deserve to die for being less that perfect in the first place.
    /sarcasm

    There is a fire somewhere, Yvette Banicevich. Go die in it.

  86. #94 Chris
    April 2, 2017

    Here is a fun fact about measles, Yvette Banicevich: it totally mucks with the immune system, not for a short time but for years and years afterwards. It is not a “mild” disease, it is a major health hazard.

    If you think children should get measles, then you are child hating ghoul.

  87. #95 Narad
    April 3, 2017

    In medicine, comorbidity is the presence of one or more additional diseases or disorders co-occurring with (that is, concomitant or concurrent with) a primary disease or disorder; in the countable sense of the term, a comorbidity (plural comorbidities) is each additional disorder or disease.

    You’re plagiarizing W—dia to the wrong crowd.

  88. #96 Narad
    April 3, 2017

    Interesting to know! Goes to show how scary measles is.

    Fuck off, Travis.

  89. #97 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    April 3, 2017

    Whoa!
    That’s a bit harsh. Do you own preferred shares of Merck or something?

    Maybe, in one of my retirement accounts, but I can’t tell you for sure yes or no, nor how much.

    But I can tell you that I’m very much against death from preventable disease, even for the less than perfect amongst us, like us old people, and as far as I’m concerned, Travis, you can join Yvette (who I suspect is another of your sock puppets).

  90. #98 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    April 3, 2017

    To date, 16 deaths have been reported, all of which occurred in persons who were immunocompromised or had other co-morbidities.

    Citation needed, Yvette. If (that is) you’re not Travis J Schwochert sockpuppeting again.

  91. #99 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    April 3, 2017

    So it’s no biggie if “persons who were immunocompromised or had other co-morbidities” die? That’s a relief!

  92. #100 herr doktor bimler
    April 3, 2017

    Citation needed, Yvette. If (that is) you’re not Travis J Schwochert sockpuppeting again.
    The source is apparently a report from the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, cited up in the original post.

  93. […] the child. It’s almost as though they’re trying to turn Michigan into Romania, with its massive ongoing measles outbreak. The sheer scientific ignorance and downright stupidity boggle the […]

  94. #102 Narad
    April 21, 2017

    The latest ECDC update is out. Twenty-five deaths total, 22 in Romania.

  95. #105 Tony
    June 11, 2017

    MI Dawn, you request double blind study with vitamin c or ensemble you cannot believe it works… allow me to laugh my butt off. Show me a double blind “REAL” placebo study concerning ANY VACCINE – and I will call you a lying bastard. They don’t exist, and vaccines are NOT among the 4% of sane and correctly backed up science, allopathic medicine is based upon. Vaccines don’t work, have never worked and will never work. Dangerous chemicals cannot create health in a fragile biological system like our bodies. It is impossible! Abandon all vaccines, for the sake of humanity…

  96. #106 Chris
    June 11, 2017

    Tony: ” Vaccines don’t work, have never worked and will never work.”

    The following is US Census data on measles incidence during the 20th century. Please tell us why the rate of measles cases dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970.

    Some rules to prevent you changing the subject:

    Do not mention deaths, because the data is on the number of cases. It is morbidity nor mortality. There is a big difference.

    Do not mention any other country, because it is data only from the United States of America. England and Wales are not American states.

    Do not mention any other decade, unless the drop was greater than 80% and the rate of cases never went up again.

    Do not mention any other disease, because the data is on measles, just like what this article is about.

    Please support your answer with verifiable evidence that has been indexed at the PubMed index.
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  97. #107 Se Habla Espol
    June 11, 2017

    Show me a double blind “REAL” placebo study concerning ANY VACCINE – and I will call you a lying bastard.

    Of course you would, because this placebo-controlled nonsense for vaccines is one of the articles of faith of the anti-vaxxer industry that you’re required to believe and to defend from reality at all costs.

  98. #108 Chris
    June 12, 2017

    It also ignores the largest placebo controlled vaccine for the first polio vaccine in the 1950s. These people are too lazy to even pick up a book, much less check a Wiki page.

    And since this is about measles, there were trials of measles vaccines in Africa:
    Efficacy of measles vaccine

    When I ask them how to prevent numbers in the third column (death from measles), they whine that there was not a “real” placebo. Which is both moving the goal posts and missing the point.

  99. #109 Chris
    June 12, 2017

    Tony: ” Vaccines don’t work, have never worked and will never work.”

    The following is US Census data on measles incidence during the 20th century. Please tell us why the rate of measles cases dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970.

    Some rules to prevent you changing the subject:

    Do not mention deaths, because the data is on the number of cases. It is morbidity nor mortality. There is a big difference.

    Do not mention any other country, because it is data only from the United States of America. England and Wales are not American states.

    Do not mention any other decade, unless the drop was greater than 80% and the rate of cases never went up again.

    Do not mention any other disease, because the data is on measles, just like what this article is about.

    Please support your answer with verifiable evidence that has been indexed at the PubMed index.
    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2
    1991 . . . . . .3.8
    1992 . . . . . .0.9
    1993 . . . . . .0.1
    1994 . . . . . .0.4
    1995 . . . . . .0.1
    1996 . . . . . .0.2
    1997 . . . . . . 0.1

  100. #110 Chris
    June 12, 2017

    Se Habla Espol: “because this placebo-controlled nonsense for vaccines is one of the articles of faith of the anti-vaxxer industry”

    It also ignores the largest placebo controlled vaccine for the first polio vaccine in the 1950s. These people are too lazy to even pick up a book, much less check a Wiki page.

    And since this is about measles, there were trials of measles vaccines in Africa:
    Efficacy of measles vaccine

    When I ask them how to prevent numbers in the third column (death from measles), they whine that there was not a “real” placebo. Which is both moving the goal posts and missing the point.

  101. #111 Se Habla Espol
    June 12, 2017

    Their point seems to be that placebo is the only valid control; standard-of-care control doesn’t count, apparently because it doesn’t endanger enough of the controls as well as the fact5 that vaccine technology is far enough along that reaching back for the early days when placebo control arms were the right approach makes things too hard to find.

    I seem to recollect that HPV had some placebo control, early in its qualification. I don’t know why that wouldn’t count. Obviously, since polio is no longer a major issue here, it doesn’t count either. Maybe polio isn’t a real vaccine.

  102. #112 dingo199
    June 12, 2017

    Show me a double blind “REAL” placebo study concerning ANY VACCINE – and I will call you a lying bastard. They don’t exist.

    The Rotavirus vaccine trials were all active drug vs saline placebo – all 41 of them, including over 186,000 participants.
    I guess that doesn’t count though, since antivaxers want trials with several million study subjects now?
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD008521.pub3/full

    Go ahead Tony, you can call me a lying bastard.

  103. #113 MI Dawn
    June 12, 2017

    I love the way Tony claims there are no double-blind vaccine trials. As Chris pointed out above, the original polio vaccine was double-blinded. As was the HPV Vaccine. Since I am getting ready for vacation, I can’t be bothered to do Tony’s homework for him, especially with Orac on vacation when a comment with a bunch of links will get hung up for a long time in moderation (because I would link to peer-reviewed studies from PubMed, not quack stuff from AOA, Greenmedinfo or NN).

    But here’s one, creep. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636904/

    Note the statement I’ve bolded in this paragraph.

    3.1. Design of phase III clinical trials

    Phase III efficacy trials of the VLP vaccines in young women were primarily designed to demonstrate efficacy in preventing incident vaccine-related HPV infection and the preneoplastic lesions caused by incident persistent infections related to vaccine HPV types. Initiation of these trials was predicated on successful completions of a series of preceding studies including development of industrial scale manufacturing processes, validation of type-restricted measures of antibody responses to the VLPs, and promising safety, immunogenicity and preliminary efficacy results in preclinical and early phase I/II trials [10,13]. Two phase III studies, FUTURE I [14] and FUTURE II [15], evaluated Gardasil® and two, PATRICIA [16] and the Costa Rica HPV Vaccine Trial (CVT) [17] evaluated Cervarix®. All of the trials were relatively large (5,500–18,500 vaccinees), blinded, randomized and controlled trials of young women (mean age 20, range 15–26) (Table 2). The CVT was a U.S. government sponsored community-based trial, centered in the Guanacaste province of Costa Rica [17], whereas the other trials were company-sponsored and multi-centric, involving multiple trial sites in Europe, North, Central and South America, and Asia Pacific, including Australia. With the exception of the CVT and the Finnish subjects in PATRICIA, there was a restriction on the number of lifetime sexual partners. This restriction was used to limit the number of women with prevalent infections and/or prevalent genital lesions at enrollment, in keeping with the primary goal of evaluating immunoprophylaxis. However, women were not excluded from the trials if they had prevalent infection at enrollment, as measured by the presence of genital tract HPV DNA by sensitive PCR-based techniques, or evidence of prior exposure, as measured by serum antibodies reactive to the VLPs, or in some cases by finding an abnormal cervical cytology at baseline. Their inclusion permitted an evaluation of the safety, immunogenicity, and prophylactic efficacy of the vaccine in women with prior or current HPV exposure, and also the possibility that the vaccines may have therapeutic activity.

  104. #114 LW
    June 12, 2017

    If vaccines don’t work and have never worked, whatever happened to smallpox?

  105. #115 LW
    June 12, 2017

    Tony: ” Vaccines don’t work, have never worked and will never work.”

    Then whatever became of rinderpest?

    Then why is rabies in wild animals controlled by vaccine-laced baits?

    Then why isn’t a bite from a rabid animal always a death sentence when the rabies vaccine is administered in time?

    Then why don’t measles outbreaks turn into measles epidemics as they did in the good old days?

    I don’t really expect an answer of course.

  106. #116 Trina
    July 11, 2017

    A warning to the US huh? So the fact that most deaths are in Romania, a country whose health care is in shambles and whose citizens lack proper sanitation and hygiene and nutrition has nothing to do with it? lol ok then. Hilarious this BLOG uses the name science but is nothing if the sort

    • #117 Orac
      July 11, 2017

      If you don’t like this post, you’re really not going to like tomorrow’s post.

      Namaste.

  107. #118 herr doktor bimler
    July 11, 2017

    Romania, a country whose health care is in shambles and whose citizens lack proper sanitation and hygiene and nutrition
    I am SHOCKED SHOCKED SHOCKED to find that some numptie on the Intertubes knows two-thirds of sweet-F-all about Romania.

  108. #119 Wzrd1
    July 12, 2017

    Indeed!
    While I do have friends in Romania, most US citizens couldn’t locate the *continent* it is on.

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