Pharyngula

What has been accomplished?

Saddam Hussein has been killed.

He was a venal little monster, but I don’t see that we’ve gained anything by stooping to the level of a third-world thug, and the unseemly haste with which an irreversible act was committed makes it even more sordid and sleazy.

He said that celebrations broke out after Hussein was dead, and that there was “dancing around the body.”

Barbarians.

Comments

  1. #1 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    – Actually, what I don’t understand is that nobody from a country with universal jurisdiction for genocide and suchlike (Spain, Belgium, Germany…) has applied for extradition. Germany, like the USA and many others, would have had plenty of interesting questions to ask him, such as “what exactly did you do with the weapons our companies sent you”. Besides, the ICC should have sued him for having attacked Kuwait.

    – Dear Mr Washington, how can killing him ONCE be “justice” for his murders of WAY OVER 50,000 PEOPLE? If you had invested the smallest amount of thought in this matter, you would have noticed long ago that arithmetic justice is impossible.

    Why the Guantßnamo Bay not lock him up in the Hague for the next 40 years?

  2. #2 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    – Actually, what I don’t understand is that nobody from a country with universal jurisdiction for genocide and suchlike (Spain, Belgium, Germany…) has applied for extradition. Germany, like the USA and many others, would have had plenty of interesting questions to ask him, such as “what exactly did you do with the weapons our companies sent you”. Besides, the ICC should have sued him for having attacked Kuwait.

    – Dear Mr Washington, how can killing him ONCE be “justice” for his murders of WAY OVER 50,000 PEOPLE? If you had invested the smallest amount of thought in this matter, you would have noticed long ago that arithmetic justice is impossible.

    Why the Guantßnamo Bay not lock him up in the Hague for the next 40 years?

  3. #3 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Just as an aside, let us not forget that Europe has produced mor cutthroats and mass murderes than any place on Earth. The Middle East, the US and other places have a long way to go to catch up to Europe,

    And?

    which doesn’t seem to mind it when the US gets rid of their dictators, because Europe is too inept to fight them, or likes them.

    You forget one thing, my friend. Since the mid-90s Saddam had not been a danger: not for Europe, not for the USA, not for Iran, not for Kuwait, not for Saudi Arabia, not even for the Kurds and most of the Shi’ites within Iraq who lived in the no-fly zones Saddam didn’t have any actual control over.

    As for liking them, remember the Iran-Iraq war. When it began, everyone — USA, France, Germany, everyone — sent weapons (including biological and chemical ones) to Our Son Of A Bitch, and kept doing so till the Iran-Contra affair.

  4. #4 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Just as an aside, let us not forget that Europe has produced mor cutthroats and mass murderes than any place on Earth. The Middle East, the US and other places have a long way to go to catch up to Europe,

    And?

    which doesn’t seem to mind it when the US gets rid of their dictators, because Europe is too inept to fight them, or likes them.

    You forget one thing, my friend. Since the mid-90s Saddam had not been a danger: not for Europe, not for the USA, not for Iran, not for Kuwait, not for Saudi Arabia, not even for the Kurds and most of the Shi’ites within Iraq who lived in the no-fly zones Saddam didn’t have any actual control over.

    As for liking them, remember the Iran-Iraq war. When it began, everyone — USA, France, Germany, everyone — sent weapons (including biological and chemical ones) to Our Son Of A Bitch, and kept doing so till the Iran-Contra affair.

  5. #5 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    The real shame is Lukashenko, the ruler of Belorussia. Not dangerous, but clearly a shame. Any action by anyone? Even just some money for an Orange Revolution? Nope. Didn’t think so.

    Oh… Russia… Chechnya. Well, Europe needs the natural gas, the Busheviki need the military bases in central Asia, and everyone needs to be friends with Putin’s button-pressing finger…

  6. #6 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    The real shame is Lukashenko, the ruler of Belorussia. Not dangerous, but clearly a shame. Any action by anyone? Even just some money for an Orange Revolution? Nope. Didn’t think so.

    Oh… Russia… Chechnya. Well, Europe needs the natural gas, the Busheviki need the military bases in central Asia, and everyone needs to be friends with Putin’s button-pressing finger…

  7. #7 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    I mean like Germany having a war crimes court. Ain’t that a hoot?

    No, it’s not.

    Come on. Do you believe evilness is inherited from the people who ruled over one’s grandparents?!?

  8. #8 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    I mean like Germany having a war crimes court. Ain’t that a hoot?

    No, it’s not.

    Come on. Do you believe evilness is inherited from the people who ruled over one’s grandparents?!?

  9. #9 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Oh, and while I have you on the phone.. Can you explain why Muslims riot in Europe but not in the US?

    What next, will you ask Kristjan if he speaks European?

    Germany’s millions of Turks have not rioted, and neither have the hundreds of thousands of Turks in Austria. Great Britain’s millions of Pakistani and whatnots have not rioted. And so on. The problem is peculiar to some of the suburbs of Paris (keep in mind that a European suburb is most comparable to an American downtown and vice versa); it’s not even Marseille, it’s just Paris. From what I hear, it’s not so much about Muslims as about immigrants… if so, you’ve misread the entire problem.

  10. #10 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Oh, and while I have you on the phone.. Can you explain why Muslims riot in Europe but not in the US?

    What next, will you ask Kristjan if he speaks European?

    Germany’s millions of Turks have not rioted, and neither have the hundreds of thousands of Turks in Austria. Great Britain’s millions of Pakistani and whatnots have not rioted. And so on. The problem is peculiar to some of the suburbs of Paris (keep in mind that a European suburb is most comparable to an American downtown and vice versa); it’s not even Marseille, it’s just Paris. From what I hear, it’s not so much about Muslims as about immigrants… if so, you’ve misread the entire problem.

  11. #11 Stuart Weinstein
    December 30, 2006

    >Sure, during the cold war the US supported any number of SOB’s. We prefered SOB’s rather than communists or other suspected unfriendlies. I’m certainly not proud of it. But I make no apology for it either.

    Then you don’t have any moral standing to comment.<

    I don’t need your permission jackass. And its far from certain what moral standing, if any, you possess.

    Try and formulate an argument, instead of avoiding it.

  12. #12 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Oh, I forgot to mention Milo?evi?. If we kindly ignore some financing for the revolution, thousands of Serbs can be proud of having removed him all on their own, no?

  13. #13 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Oh, I forgot to mention Milo?evi?. If we kindly ignore some financing for the revolution, thousands of Serbs can be proud of having removed him all on their own, no?

  14. #14 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Wasn’t Milosevic democratically elected and democratically unelected?

    Well, yes, except that he tried to fake the outcome and refused to leave; when people found out about the poorly concealed fake (voting in ink on paper can only get you so far…), they removed him by revolution.

    However my impression was that Milosevic would have won handily if not for American election tampering of the sort they are well practised at all over the world. In this case quite the strong-arm stuff.

    I can’t claim to be well-informed, but I’ve never heard of the slightest accusation in that direction; quite the opposite (see above).

    Btw David, your name looks a bit Southern Slavic to me. is it Serbian?

    Yes. (In fact, Milo?evi?’s minister of the interior had the same surname; no known relation.) However, I’ve never even been to Serbia; I even forgot the language when I was 2 years old and now have German as my only mother tongue. (I live in Austria; when my dad found a job in Paris, he only came home once every 6 weeks, and I had nobody to talk to.) I was not involved in the Serbian Revolution :o)

  15. #15 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    Wasn’t Milosevic democratically elected and democratically unelected?

    Well, yes, except that he tried to fake the outcome and refused to leave; when people found out about the poorly concealed fake (voting in ink on paper can only get you so far…), they removed him by revolution.

    However my impression was that Milosevic would have won handily if not for American election tampering of the sort they are well practised at all over the world. In this case quite the strong-arm stuff.

    I can’t claim to be well-informed, but I’ve never heard of the slightest accusation in that direction; quite the opposite (see above).

    Btw David, your name looks a bit Southern Slavic to me. is it Serbian?

    Yes. (In fact, Milo?evi?’s minister of the interior had the same surname; no known relation.) However, I’ve never even been to Serbia; I even forgot the language when I was 2 years old and now have German as my only mother tongue. (I live in Austria; when my dad found a job in Paris, he only came home once every 6 weeks, and I had nobody to talk to.) I was not involved in the Serbian Revolution :o)

  16. #16 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006
    What next, will you ask Kristjan if he speaks European?

    Hmmm ? Is there a problem here?

    Well, yes, the way you generalize about Europe. Inductive reasoning…

    [...] it’s not even Marseille, it’s just Paris.

    Just Paris and just France?

    Not even France as a whole.

    In case you’ve misunderstood me, I’m not blaming Muslims for anything, Heck, I’m surprised they didn’t get pissed off earlier.

    Sorry, yes, I misunderstood.

    And given they understand what Europe once did to a minority that chose not to riot and get pissed off

    “Europe” didn’t do anything. Hitler and his gang did. (A large gang, sure, but still nowhere near “Europe”.)

    From what I hear, it’s not so much about Muslims as about immigrants… if so, you’ve misread the entire problem.

    From what I hear thats a lot of hooey that tries to sweep real problems under the rug. We have that in the US too. A lot of shit gets blamed on *immigration*, that in reality has nothing to do with immigration, but rather how people are treated.

    Sorry for not having been clear. The basic problems, as far as I can tell (especially at 2 am…), are:
    - Immigrants to France in general and the Paris region in particular used to be shoved off into hastily built social housing buildings; the result was a kind of ghettoization. Most of these houses (you know, concrete blocks from the 1970s) are now crumbling.
    - The largest proportion of immigrants to France are Algerians and Moroccans, a culturally rather homogenous assemblage, and rather distinct from the other French (even including the many Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants). That’s not bad per se, but it clearly helps with the preceding and the next point.
    - Lack of contact did nothing to reduce French xenophobia — I’m under the impression that there’s comparatively little xenophobia in France, on average at least, but still 20 % of the people preferred having the far-right Le Pen for president over the corrupt but politically unspectacular conservative Chirac.
    - Immigrants get French citizenship very fast (not comparable to Switzerland, or Germany before 10 years ago, or Austria), and many already arrive speaking very good French (for historical reasons), so they expect to be treated as French. They aren’t always (see above).
    - France not being Malaysia, there are no jobs. Poverty reinforces ghettoization and xenophobia and so on.
    - In sum, the teenagers believe they have no future.
    - Some of them chose a desperate form of protest: they destroyed cars the likes of which they will probably never possess.
    - The tough law-and-order talk by the right-conservative minister of the interior only made them even angrier.

    This combination of reasons (it goes without saying that I’ve probably missed some) is unique to a few French suburbs. I’m not trying to downplay the problem, but it’s no surprise that you don’t have it anywhere in the USA*. Even the Turkish quarters of Berlin haven’t produced marauding masses of teenagers; the situation is simply not similar enough across even just western Europe.

    * Having said that, there seem to be those “race riots” once or twice per decade… the rioters in those cases aren’t immigrants and usually not Muslims, but the rest of the situation is similar, isn’t it?

  17. #17 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006
    What next, will you ask Kristjan if he speaks European?

    Hmmm ? Is there a problem here?

    Well, yes, the way you generalize about Europe. Inductive reasoning…

    [...] it’s not even Marseille, it’s just Paris.

    Just Paris and just France?

    Not even France as a whole.

    In case you’ve misunderstood me, I’m not blaming Muslims for anything, Heck, I’m surprised they didn’t get pissed off earlier.

    Sorry, yes, I misunderstood.

    And given they understand what Europe once did to a minority that chose not to riot and get pissed off

    “Europe” didn’t do anything. Hitler and his gang did. (A large gang, sure, but still nowhere near “Europe”.)

    From what I hear, it’s not so much about Muslims as about immigrants… if so, you’ve misread the entire problem.

    From what I hear thats a lot of hooey that tries to sweep real problems under the rug. We have that in the US too. A lot of shit gets blamed on *immigration*, that in reality has nothing to do with immigration, but rather how people are treated.

    Sorry for not having been clear. The basic problems, as far as I can tell (especially at 2 am…), are:
    - Immigrants to France in general and the Paris region in particular used to be shoved off into hastily built social housing buildings; the result was a kind of ghettoization. Most of these houses (you know, concrete blocks from the 1970s) are now crumbling.
    - The largest proportion of immigrants to France are Algerians and Moroccans, a culturally rather homogenous assemblage, and rather distinct from the other French (even including the many Vietnamese and Chinese immigrants). That’s not bad per se, but it clearly helps with the preceding and the next point.
    - Lack of contact did nothing to reduce French xenophobia — I’m under the impression that there’s comparatively little xenophobia in France, on average at least, but still 20 % of the people preferred having the far-right Le Pen for president over the corrupt but politically unspectacular conservative Chirac.
    - Immigrants get French citizenship very fast (not comparable to Switzerland, or Germany before 10 years ago, or Austria), and many already arrive speaking very good French (for historical reasons), so they expect to be treated as French. They aren’t always (see above).
    - France not being Malaysia, there are no jobs. Poverty reinforces ghettoization and xenophobia and so on.
    - In sum, the teenagers believe they have no future.
    - Some of them chose a desperate form of protest: they destroyed cars the likes of which they will probably never possess.
    - The tough law-and-order talk by the right-conservative minister of the interior only made them even angrier.

    This combination of reasons (it goes without saying that I’ve probably missed some) is unique to a few French suburbs. I’m not trying to downplay the problem, but it’s no surprise that you don’t have it anywhere in the USA*. Even the Turkish quarters of Berlin haven’t produced marauding masses of teenagers; the situation is simply not similar enough across even just western Europe.

    * Having said that, there seem to be those “race riots” once or twice per decade… the rioters in those cases aren’t immigrants and usually not Muslims, but the rest of the situation is similar, isn’t it?

  18. #18 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    I wrote:

    but it clearly helps with the preceding and the next point.

    Or rather, the opposite. Should have written “it clearly reinforces” those points.

    Mena, good point about the other bogeyman. Where is he…? Oh yeah: we got told he’s not important. Hm. That’s another one I want to see in the Hague for instigation and financing of mass murder in over 2700 cases.

    BTW, Himmler was quite the occultist, and Hitler himself wasn’t exactly uninterested either…

  19. #19 David Marjanovi?
    December 30, 2006

    I wrote:

    but it clearly helps with the preceding and the next point.

    Or rather, the opposite. Should have written “it clearly reinforces” those points.

    Mena, good point about the other bogeyman. Where is he…? Oh yeah: we got told he’s not important. Hm. That’s another one I want to see in the Hague for instigation and financing of mass murder in over 2700 cases.

    BTW, Himmler was quite the occultist, and Hitler himself wasn’t exactly uninterested either…

  20. #20 David Marjanovi?
    December 31, 2006

    I do not know what happened to them–if Hussein sold them, used them up, whatever.

    He destroyed the whole arsenal down to the last molecule of mustard gas. Have you forgotten the UN inspections?!?

    The trick is that he destroyed them more or less in secret. This way the inspections would (correctly) find nothing, while the generals would not get a pretense for declaring him a cowardish traitor to Iraq’s military strength and getting rid of the old paranoiac; to the contrary, they’d admire him for resisting the pressure of the whole world, and continue to praise him for being the best thing that had happened to Iraq since sliced bread. The best of both worlds; a typical Saddam game. Like reportedly all Saddam games, however, it didn’t work. Saddam had overlooked the fact that Fearless Flightsuit didn’t care whether there were any Weapons of Mass Distraction. W wanted his war, and he got it.

  21. #21 David Marjanovi?
    December 31, 2006

    I do not know what happened to them–if Hussein sold them, used them up, whatever.

    He destroyed the whole arsenal down to the last molecule of mustard gas. Have you forgotten the UN inspections?!?

    The trick is that he destroyed them more or less in secret. This way the inspections would (correctly) find nothing, while the generals would not get a pretense for declaring him a cowardish traitor to Iraq’s military strength and getting rid of the old paranoiac; to the contrary, they’d admire him for resisting the pressure of the whole world, and continue to praise him for being the best thing that had happened to Iraq since sliced bread. The best of both worlds; a typical Saddam game. Like reportedly all Saddam games, however, it didn’t work. Saddam had overlooked the fact that Fearless Flightsuit didn’t care whether there were any Weapons of Mass Distraction. W wanted his war, and he got it.

  22. #22 David Marjanovi?
    December 31, 2006

    You see, he’s a uniter, not a divider. He’s doing the best he can to unite everyone against him.

    Austrian TV news today: Someone recorded a video of the execution on their cell phone. The executioner says “Moqtada” three times. Reactions from Sunnites? “The Persians [including their supposed Shiite minions] have killed him.” Great job. Greeeat.

    One last thing. When you already execute someone for being just too evil, you don’t give him to his tribe for a funeral, you burn him and strew the ashes into the Tigris. If you do it, do it right. What was done? Saddam-nostalgic pilgrims now have a place to go. The revenge oaths have already been taken.

    The stupid! It burns! It kills.

  23. #23 David Marjanovi?
    December 31, 2006

    You see, he’s a uniter, not a divider. He’s doing the best he can to unite everyone against him.

    Austrian TV news today: Someone recorded a video of the execution on their cell phone. The executioner says “Moqtada” three times. Reactions from Sunnites? “The Persians [including their supposed Shiite minions] have killed him.” Great job. Greeeat.

    One last thing. When you already execute someone for being just too evil, you don’t give him to his tribe for a funeral, you burn him and strew the ashes into the Tigris. If you do it, do it right. What was done? Saddam-nostalgic pilgrims now have a place to go. The revenge oaths have already been taken.

    The stupid! It burns! It kills.

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