Pharyngula

What is wrong with these people?

Be sure to catch the cute little toddler’s solo at the end. Tell me, is this child abuse yet?

Comments

  1. #1 GodlessHeathen
    June 23, 2007

    I’ve no idea why Calvinists would put this sort of effort into telling people they’re going to hell, since it was decided before their birth that it was to be so.

    Strange lot.

  2. #2 Dennis
    June 23, 2007

    Oh shit. I just caught the warning to watch the toddler solo at the end (little text, big video box: easy to overlook.) Naturally, I stopped at 2 minutes having seen all I needed to see…

    But, I went back to watch the last bit. Truly sickening.

    Unfortunately, no ordinary religious person is going to look at this and think there might be something wrong with their own practices. After all, they’re not preaching that it’s too late for the world and everyone is going to be damned to hell… they’re just preaching that it’s almost too late for the world, and MOST people are going to be damned to hell.

  3. #3 Stogoe
    June 23, 2007

    Yes, Tex, but gods are a fiction. And following their immoral strictures is silly and causes grave harm, even though they’re fictional.

  4. #4 Mike Eagles
    June 23, 2007

    Ah yes, the Phelpsians. Could someone please explain to me what these weirdos actually believe in? I looked at their website, but it’s all hysterical ranting. I can’t actually figure out what their system is.

  5. #5 Stephen
    June 23, 2007

    Notice the director, “Alan Smithee” is a pseudonym directors use when they’re ashamed of the final product. They should be ashamed.

  6. #6 GodlessHeathen
    June 23, 2007

    Interesting, I just found out Shirley Phelps has an “illegitimate” son. If I’m not mistaken, by Calvinist standards, she’s doomed to hell. (Though she claims otherwise, of course.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8lDxCRHQD4

  7. #7 Bob O'H
    June 23, 2007

    Sorry, but isn’t this just an exercise in irony? I thought it was hilarious.

    Bob

  8. #8 cureholder
    June 23, 2007

    >>points for honesty<<

    If a child molester honestly believes that it is right to molest children, do we give him/her “points for honesty?” No, we condemn the belief as incompatible with a civil society and lock the molester away so s/he can’t get at more kids. Here, we say, “Whatever you want to teach your children is fine as long as you believe it, even if it involves teaching hate against others based on stupid books of myths.”

    Child abuse? Absolutely. There’s a line in the bible (psalm 137) blessing the people who would take the hebrews’ children by the ankles and dash their heads against rocks (so they wouldn’t have to suffer the indignity of growing up under an oppressive people who weren’t god’s chosen).

    I think the same way about these kids. For most of them, an early death would be an escape from the torture they will face as they grow up. (I am absolutely NOT suggesting they should be killed!) According to Dawkins, statistically, very few of them will actually be able to escape.

    I intend to help as many of them as I can get in touch with. I’ve been where they are.

  9. #9 Janine
    June 23, 2007

    I turned off the song after less then a minute. Nothing new here to see and why watch such poisoned and twisted people. But I did watch the little girl. She has no idea what she is saying. And the smile at the end when she is done because she made her parents happy. Sad.

    Child abuse, hell yes. Just think of all the adults that are part of the choir, one has to think they were also like the little girl. It is much easier to hate them because they had the change to try to rethink think their believes and chose not to. But at some point, they were like that little girl.

    As for why they did a parody of a secular song? Being creative is not a goal for these people. Cowering under the sight of an angry Big Sky Daddy is the only way to life. Being creative gets in the way of this. Also, being creative might lead to the idea the there is pleasure to be had in using your own intelligence which leads one away from living in fear at all times.

    Just feel grateful the people like this are a minority of humanity. If they were more plentiful throughout history and prehistory, we would still be cowering in caves.

  10. #10 Josh
    June 23, 2007

    Wow, these people just read my mind. They sang “you will all stand together and fall,” just as I was looking into their eyes and thinking exactly the same thing. After all, that is precisely what they were doing, standing together in front of that cliche microphone and falling for all the worst parts of the Bible. “Change is coming,” they sing. Indeed, I think, but far from the change they seem to imagine. If only they didn’t ascribe literal meaning to all the shit coming out of their mouths, I might actually agree with it. What gets me is the sheer thickness of sedimentary rock that separates their fossilized interpretations of these ancient words from the only meaning the words seem to actually have (that being the exact opposite of what they seem to think). If God existed, She no doubt WOULD hate a world composed only of such hypnotized sheep.

    Love makes the world go ’round, and self-hatred grinds it to a halt, as these people demonstrate with unmitigated clarity. And for the record, passing on such perverse language to the next generation is more than child-abuse. These kids are being sentenced to a life of confusion, delusion, and hallucination. The devil’s family indeed. Shame on them all.

  11. #11 Jessica Guilford
    June 23, 2007

    Their god can go fuck himself. And so can they (toddler excepted), as far as it goes.

  12. #12 Monado
    June 23, 2007

    I image they’re flying the Canadian flag upside down as a sign of distress or perhaps our inverted values. Gay marriage has been legal here all over the country for about three years and it distresses them that life hasn’t dissolved into chaos yet. In fact, it’s going along pretty much as usual. Possibly teenage suicides have dropped, as gay teens realize that yes, they can grow up, fall in love, and get married, just like everyone else. BTW, it’s Pride Week in Toronto and the Mayor and local Members of Parliament will be riding in the Gay Pride parade. Church Street, which runs through the gay village, will be turned into a street fair.

  13. #13 David Marjanovi?
    June 23, 2007

    Just to weird you all out, Phelps was a registered Democrat.

    Ah. Well, it’s America. Zell “Godzella” Miller is a registered Democrat, too.

  14. #14 RamblinDude
    June 23, 2007

    Let’s not forget that many of the early colonists in America were these people’s Puritan predecessors. They burnt witches at the stake and saw evil in everything. They would have been right at home singing these lyrics.

    Am I wrong?

  15. #15 Justin Wagner
    June 23, 2007

    I don’t know what’s worse: the bigotry, or the fact that I’m going to have this song stuck in my head all day. I’ll have to crank up some Highway to Hell I guess.

  16. #16 CalGeorge
    June 23, 2007

    Absolutely appalling behavior.

    Think about it. They carefully rehearsed that sick song of hatred, then broadcast it for all the world to see.

    They had plenty of time to reflect on the nasty lyrics, plenty of opportunity to consider how utterly mean-spirited they were being, and yet they went forward.

    Fucking, fucking sick.

  17. #17 Opisthokont
    June 23, 2007

    This sort of religiously motivated hatred always makes me wonder what these people think of John 3:16 — “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is of course the verse touted by the Gideons as the most translated passage in the history of humankind; one would think that people that claim to take the Bible literally would take this well-known and very unambiguous passage under consideration.

    Come to think of it, though, that passage also pretty well undermines Calvinism as well, does it not? I just cannot understand how these people think. Cynical, snarky comments aside here, this one is just so obvious that I really do wonder.

  18. #18 Faid
    June 23, 2007

    Oh.

    My.

    Fictional.

    God.

    Until the end, I was fairly certain this was a tasteless parody.
    I would still wonder, had I not read the comments.

    Best example of Poe’s Law that I’ve seen.

  19. #19 raven
    June 23, 2007

    I can’t help thinking that the Phelpsians are going to flame out one day.

    1. Could be a Seung Cho style attack on a one of their targets, a medical clinic or bar or whatever their favorite demons are that day.

    2. Could be a Waco style standoff with the cops. But I doubt it. The cops don’t do Wacos anymore.

    3. Or they could just Rapture themselves like the Heaven’ Gaters or Jonestowners. I’m sure they would gather a lot of applause for that one.

    Or maybe they will just fizzle out. If anyone but the head wingnut has a capacity for thought, the idea of a Heaven’s Gate incident must be a little alarming. Last I heard, the UFO fans were still dead and the spaceship never did show up.

    BTW, no one has to think too hard about these guys. Phelps is nuts and this is a very small, very nasty cult.

  20. #20 JrShaBaDu
    June 23, 2007

    I just plain didn’t understand this video. Maybe its because I think like a normal person.

    I’m reaching back to my youth when I actually believed in God but isn’t there something like “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.” in the bible? Correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

  21. #21 Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA
    June 23, 2007

    It’s funny. *slap* It’s disturbing. *slap* It’s funny. *slap* It’s disturbing. *slap* It’s funny and it’s disturbing.

  22. #22 Arnosium Upinarum
    June 23, 2007

    Behold the face of mass insanity.

    How many examples this bleak must exist in (probably well-fortified) cubby holes in North America (let alone around the world) that haven’t exposed themselves in a video?

    I will hazard a guess: several thousands in the world; N. America alone probably constitutes at least half of them, with the US probably containing over 75% of that.

    Multiply that with the number of folks in this vid as a plausibly representative group (rough estimate, about 50, but maybe another similar number associated but not present in the vid = 100) and you get maybe upwards of a half million folks who are fanatically insane around the world, of which as many as 2/5 may reside in the US.

    Its only a guess for the sake of exercise. Give my crude numbers an error range of 75%, and the LOWER LIMIT is still extremely scary.

    This estimation does not count the very VERY much larger number of folks who appear to function day-to-day in passably “rational and loving ways” yet subscribe to their EQUALLY STRONG beliefs by PRECISELY THE SAME CRITERIA as these lunatics do…and you can see a big problem.

  23. #23 abeja
    June 23, 2007

    the original “We are the World” was released as a way of raising money for AIDS in Africa.

    The original “We Are The World” was released to raise money for the famine.

  24. #24 Dutch Vigilante
    June 23, 2007

    Hmmm, kids.

    How about we atheists create such a song?

    “There is no god, there are no spirits.
    To think you have a soul is just quite silly,
    You are ingorant, you’ve wasted your whole life,
    believing in a magic man, high in the clouds.”

    Come on lads, we can beat these nuts!

  25. #25 Tatarize
    June 23, 2007

    >>So Phelps claims that god is retaliating by killing US soldiers in Iraq. Rather unfair, because they didn’t do it. God’s got to be brighter than that.

    You honestly think that drowning the entire world in the story of Noah’s Ark shows some kind of compassion for innocents. If anything, the preoccupation is to declare them all wicked and kill them all. We also have the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and various demands for genocides against entire peoples throughout the Bible. The God of the Bible is really that stupid. He’s really that evil and that homicidal and genocidal. He is, as Richard Dawkins notes, the most unpleasant character in all of fiction.

  26. #26 Keanus
    June 23, 2007

    Sick, sick people. There’s nothing else to say.

  27. #27 Ex-drone
    June 24, 2007

    If it really is “too late to change His mind,” then why don’t they just sit back in smug satisfaction and stop offending my ears?

  28. #28 Eamon Knight
    June 24, 2007

    As a veteran, back in the day, of a number of chirpy little choirs like that singing chirpy little ditties about Jesus-loves-the-whole-world etc, that video seriously creeps me out. It’s kind of like a sick parody of all that — except of course that these head-cases really mean it.

    As long as we’re predicting the future, here’s mine: Fred’s getting on and will probably be gone within 10 years. I predict the cult will disintegrate once he kicks the bucket. Unless he’s designated an heir apparent (and everything I’ve read about him suggests that he’s too much of an egotistical control-freak to have done so — your successor is an implicit rival), it will split into factions and/or members will just drift away, once his influence is gone. (Which doesn’t rule out the possibility that some of the factions will become more extreme and wind up shooting it out with the cops).

  29. #29 Tex
    June 24, 2007

    That being the case, Christians don’t believe the Levitical laws still apply.

    Not quite. Two Levitical laws still specifically apply to Christians as detailed in Acts 15 and supported in later text. They are (1) not to eat meat that has been offered to idols or still has blood in it (the basis for some sects refusing transfusions) and (2)the sexual taboos. It is this second bit that seems to disturb Brother Phelps and his followers. Paul reinforces the importance of sexual purity (abstenince is best, but if you can’t do that, for god’s sake at least get married) in several later books (esp. I Corinthians). The Phelpsians are on solid theological ground (if there ever could be such a thing) in their beliefs.

  30. #30 BK
    June 24, 2007

    Jeesh. Who cares? Relevant as cigarette butt or a losing lottery ticket. Although cigarette butts are better looking and old lottery tickets are more interesting.

  31. #31 blah
    June 24, 2007

    Whatever happened to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbour as you do yourself?

    What, exactly, leads you to believe anything but that these people loathe themselves?

  32. #32 abeja
    June 24, 2007

    Muslims; Mormons; Raelians and followers of Cao Dai also believe Christ is the Son of God. That doesn’t make them Christians.

    Muslims don’t believe jesus was the son of god, and Mormons are christians. But that third one, Cao Dai, is one I hadn’t heard of before. Yep, they believe jc is the son of god, and nope, they don’t appear to consider themselves to be xtians. And perhaps there are more religions out there like that.

    People can argue all day about what the definition of xtianity is–since so many sects interpret the bible in so many different ways, it’s really no surprise that different xtians have different definitions of xtianity. Some don’t consider other jesus followers to be xtians if they haven’t been “born again”, and some say jesus followers aren’t xtians if they don’t consider the bible inerrant. But the definition of a xtian is not “one who tolerates gays”, “one who doesn’t teach their kid nasty songs”, or “one who is not an evil hatemonger”. The person who claims that the Phelps family is not xtian seems to base their opinion on the fact that the Phelps family are a clan of evil hatemongers who can’t stand gays and teach their kids nasty songs. That alone doesn’t make them non-xtians.

  33. #33 Ken Cope
    June 24, 2007

    I’m probably going to be pilloried for saying this,…I submit that there really is something profoundly un-Christlike in Phelps’ behavior…

    Scott, you know better than to trot out no true Scottsman, just as you know you deserve at least 30 lashes with His Noodly Appendage. Really, has anybody ever accused any member of the Phelps hate cult of being Christlike?

    If Phelps says he’s a Christian, I have to take him at his word. If his behavior is extreme among Christians, his attitudes toward his favorite targets are not rare enough among those who use the Bible to justify their beliefs. You may notice it’s his flavor of Xtianity being pandered to in America by an unsettling preponderance of its politicans, while your flavor of hand-wringing well-meaning liberal piety is, at best, paid mere lip service. Sure glad I don’t have to be an apologist for such a sullied and putrid brand as Christianity.

  34. #34 Jim
    June 24, 2007

    Okay… one of those signs says “My sex life: better anal than banal”. Isn’t it pronounced “bah-NAHL”? It doesn’t rhyme, man.

  35. #35 Mr. X
    June 24, 2007

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

  36. #36 JimBakker
    June 24, 2007

    Whats with all the debate and bible quoting/arguing here? The bible is crap….and these people are fools. End of story. Next.

  37. #37 Christopher
    June 24, 2007

    These fools on the video and all of us would do a very good service to each other and our planet if we just stopped taking ourselves oh so seriously..

    Wake up and smell the roses, with all of our science and faith, we still don’t know much about anything.. and if we do, we sure as hell have not proved it yet. :)

  38. #38 Pook
    June 24, 2007

    Two words: holy crap.

  39. #39 Anton Mates
    June 24, 2007

    At the risk of hijacking Scott’s point: that’s the point, isn’t it? If the Bible has no central message, then any such claim can only be supported by what amounts to quote-mining – cherry-picking which passages to emphasize, which to allegorize, and which to ignore. But some posters on this thread (Tex for one) have stated they think Phelps’ hermeneutic is right on the money.

    But the latter claim doesn’t conflict with the former. Tex, so far as I can see, hasn’t claimed, that “God hates gays” is the central message of the Bible…merely that it is a message found prominently in the Bible, which it certainly is. You don’t need to cherry-pick to see that; it’s repeated several times, occurs in both Testaments, and to my knowledge is never contradicted. Lots of Biblical messages are vague, metaphorical or contradicted elsewhere; not this one.

    Scott’s the one claiming that the Bible has a central message, and a sufficiently coherent one for us to conclude that Phelps’ version of Christianity is off the mark: “Phelps and his family ‘church’ hold a highly distorted caricature of scripture.” I don’t think that’s the case. Phelps’ interpretation is no more distorted than most Christians’; he simply picked unusual parts of scripture to focus on.

    I assert that Phelps has simply chosen the parts that feed his own pathology. He is no more (though arguably no less, either) “correct” than your average accept-everyone marry-the-gays feed-the-poor liberal church.

    I agree with that. To be more precise, I would say that Phelps is about as consistent in obeying the Bible’s moral precepts as the average liberal church (taking into account that their Bibles are probably different translations). I think he’s somewhat more Christlike than the average liberal Christian–that is, more willing to viciously assault his opponents and revel in their suffering. But he’s somewhat less like what Christ said his followers should be, since he’s not very big on pacifism and charity.

  40. #40 Owlmirror
    June 25, 2007

    God completely wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for their tolerance of homosexuality.

    Hm, no.

    No reason is ever explicitly said, just that they were wicked. While a large portion of the population of Sodom did demand that Lot give over his (male) guests (who were actually messengers of God), and the idiom they used implied that the men would be raped, well, that’s no more “tolerance of homosexuality” than heterosexual rape is marriage.

    Later commentary suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for inhospitality.

    He even had Lot, the one righteous man in town, offer his two virgin daughters to get them to stop.

    Not quite.

    Lot’s offer of his daughters was of his own choice, not God’s promptings. And it wasn’t to make the people of Sodom stop tolerating homosexuality; it was to make the rape-threateners go away.

  41. #41 Anton Mates
    June 25, 2007

    Later commentary suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for inhospitality.

    At least two reasons are given in the Bible. Ezekiel says, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” Jude says, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” I’m not sure how you reconcile those if you’re a literalist, but I’d imagine most fundies would side with Jude, he being a Christian and all. Ezekiel’s just a pagan blessed with divine inspiration and/or a yen for mushrooms.

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

  42. #42 woozy(except me, of course. I'm *very* equally smart)
    June 25, 2007

    #171

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    #155

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

    I don’t think all christian are equally sane, any more than I believe all athiests are equally smart.

  43. #43 woozy(except me, of course. I'm *very* equally smart)
    June 25, 2007

    #171

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    #155

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

    I don’t think all christian are equally sane, any more than I believe all athiests are equally smart.

  44. #44 Evolving Squid
    June 25, 2007

    The kids remind me of the Amish. They are excluded from society by their religion and it’s a shame in and of itself.

    I’m not sure it’s a shame that Amish kids are excluded from society. Do children require a diet of iPods, MTV, and cell phones to grow up to be good human beings? I don’t think so.

    Although I disagree with the supernatural beliefs of the Amish, and I think their technophobe attitude is strange, I can’t say I think their technological phobia is necessarily BAD.

    You don’t see many drive-bys with horse drawn carriages.

    The Amish kids are not in the same situation as the Phelpsian kids by a long shot.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    Better idea: Get the state out of the marriage business completely. Make any coupling/tripling/whatevering into a standard contract. There are already very good contract rules about how they should be handled and how they should be ended. The important aspects of marriage law can be imported to these contracts so children aren’t left without support etc.

    Marriage is a cultural thing, let the government stay out of it.

    Raising a family and supporting each other is a contractual thing. Governments are reasonably adept at contracts, so let them deal with that.

    the fact that there aren’t many Sabbath-breaker-rights marches available for counterprotesting.

    But there are some… In Canada people still get a bit uppity about stores opening on Sunday and it was a long and hard fight to get things like the Lord’s Day Act repealed.

    It’s time for another Waco.

    I’ve been saying that about the Phelpsians for years. They’re going to go out in a Waco or a Jonestown… it’s just a matter of time.

  45. #45 Paul Flocken
    June 25, 2007

    QUOTE: “I am a Christian. These people are not Christian.”

    Says you. The Phelpsians disagree. How can we tell you apart from them from just the bible.

    QUOTE: “People through the years have taken and twisted and contorted the Bible to the beliefs that they hold. What they preach is not Christianity. I know several Christians who may have messed up theology. But as a Christian, I feel that more than anyone the Phelpsians are deserving of the utmost punishment that they can receive.”

    You feel! Can’t you give us something more than that from the internal criteria of the bible to back up your feelings. After all, these fundatics are using the same bible you are. What in the bible differentiates you from them.

    QUOTE: “Now I am a fairly liberal Christian as far as Christians go. Don’t assume that all Christians are this way, until you know all of the facts.”

    So there are more than one kind of christian. And you get to decide which ones are the true believers and which not? How convenient. Again, how do you tell them apart using the internal criteria of the bible? If, as I have been told, that even the devil can quote scripture, then what good, exactly, is scripture, if scripture is to be rejected just because the devil, or Fred Phelps, is using it in a manner you don’t like.

    Insincerely,

  46. #46 David Robertson
    June 25, 2007

    This is meant to be a science blog? So why is this video posted here? The posting of it is almost as sick as the video itself. This was also linked to the Dawkins site where I posted the following. It applies here as well.

    Dear Dr Dawkins,

    You are absolutely correct. This video is disgusting beyond belief. However I am almost as revolted by your behaviour in using the antics of these sick people as a justification for your atheistic arguments. It is the ultimate in ad hominem argument. Let me ask you some serious questions -

    1) Why did you post this video on your website?
    2) Out of the two billion people who profess to be Christian in the world, how many do you think would not be sickened by this video?
    3) Do you think that these people behave in this way because they were basically good people who have somehow been perverted by Christianity? If so could you explain why 99.9999999% of those who have been taught Christianity do not behave in this way?
    4) Of course the above video is child abuse. But you wrongly attribute that abuse to religion – not realising that religion can be used as a cloak for many things. I could personally take you to people and homes where as bad, if not worse abuse goes on. Some of that abuse is done by people who would claim to be religious, some by those who would claim to be atheist. I would not blame either ‘philosophy’ for the abuse.

    5) Do you not realise that Fred Phelps (the ‘patriarch’ and abuser in chief of the Westboro Baptist Church)lives for and thrives on publicity? By feeding his mania for self-publicity you are in fact contributing to and aiding the abuse. Does that not bother you? Or is your hatred of Christianity so strong, and your desire to promote your own views so overwhelming that you do not care who you hurt?

    Given that you read this website you must know how inflammatory your posting of this video and your own comments are. Even the few posted so far indicate how dangerous and stupid this is.

    2. wolfpurplemoon wants to warn us that this is coming to Britain.

    3. Angieruns thinks that this is evidence that Christians do not serve a loving god.

    4. axisaudio thinks it proves that ‘religion is child abuse’ (you have thereby suceeded in classing me and the others I was with tonight helping run a club in a run down inner city area,as child abusers, equivalent to the Phelps).

    5. Even Fedler, who is normally one of the saner and more reasonable people on this site joins in. And yes – Westboro Baptist Church has been reprimanded by many other Baptist congregations (but I guess that would not be posted here?).

    6. captain underpants seems to see a conspiracy of ‘funding’. They are funded by themselves and live off the publicity that people like you give them.

    7. Jackson Ayres thankfully brings some perspective and sanity to the whole witchhunt.

    8. Lutrasimilis seems to think this is typical ‘fundamentalism’.

    And so it will go on. I find your use of this video cheap, abusive and degrading. It is on a par with the Nazis who used stories about ‘bad Jews’ in order to stir up a general hatred for all Jews. Your equation of the Phelps family with Christianity, your oft stated linkage of ‘moderate’ Christianity with ‘extremists’, and the nature of this website, means that you have done a dangerous and frankly quite disgusting thing in posting this video and your comments here.

    I know I will get the usual barrage of abuse (which will only prove my point)and will probably be banned for daring to challenge you, but for once, please admit that you are wrong to do this, and please tell your followers not to equate Christianity (and therefore all Christians) with this perverse and sickening child abuse.

    By the way, even those most ignorant of theology should know that the Bible teaches that God ‘so loved the world’. The Phelps are heretics in the worst sense of the world. But then I suspect you know that.

    I am really angry and disguested with you for doing this. It is the worst thing you have done on this website yet and deserves an immediate apology and retraction.

    David Robertson
    (author of ‘The Dawkins Letters – challenging atheist myths).

  47. #47 Warren
    June 25, 2007

    please tell your followers not to equate Christianity (and therefore all Christians) with this perverse and sickening child abuse.

    Yes, it’s nothing like what half a dozen or so Texas Christards have done to their children over the last decade or so, nothing at all like the Mormon splinter sect that forces underage girls into group marriages, nothing at all like what Koresh’s crowd did, and it’s certainly nothing like the way Catholic priests have been raping boys for centuries.

    Why, the differences are obvious to anyone who casts a discerning eye.

    Aren’t they?

  48. #48 David Marjanovi?
    June 25, 2007

    I have to point out that all the mainstream Christian denominations insist that Christ created a new covenant between Man and God which superceded the Old Testament law and rendered it, as Yarrer Arafat might have said, “caduc”.

    Not according to (…modern…) Catholic dogma. You see, God never ever breaks his promises. “Nobody comes to the Father but through me” — the Jews already are there. Seriously.

    much like Clausewitz envisions in his dictum that politics is war by other means.

    He wrote Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln, “war is the continuation of politics by other means”.

    Why the fuck dont we take the same initiative the iraqi suicide bombers do and wipe these fucks out?
    we’re all going to hell anyway according to them, so why not enjoy the rest of our life we have and kill them all?

    Because it would be murder? Because the morons aren’t even doing any harm except for pissing people off? Why not enjoy the rest of our life, period?

    Quote-mining would be [...] treating a parable as if the writers meant it to be history.

    Some parables are clearly marked as such. Others less so… it’s not always easy, or perhaps at all possible, to figure out what was meant as a parable.

  49. #49 Warren
    June 25, 2007

    If you wern’t so prejudiced and blind.
    Posted by: David Robertson

    Ah, name-calling already. What a fine example of your god you’ve proven to be.

  50. #50 IrishCat
    June 26, 2007

    #202 Not all Christians believe that. If a non-Christian never heard of, or learned about God he/she can’t be condemned if he/she has lived a good life. If on the other hand one was to know God and reject Him, well go figure. As for the NUTS above, they’re not Christians they’re just nuts. They may call themselves Christian but they’re not.
    #198 I am a Christian and I do not admire, secretly or otherwise, that bunch of hate filled lunatics. By the way, the most efficient genociadalists were atheists i.e. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot.

  51. #51 GW
    June 26, 2007

    An imagined conversation between Rev. Ted Haggard and Rev. Fred Phelps:

    TH: Hey there Freddy. How’s it hanging? I like all your gay bashing and shit… because I too believe homosexuality is an a-BUMMER-nation, as it is said in the good book…. Can we be “friends”?

    FP: Wait a tooting minute, didn’t you get busted with a Gay Prostitute a few months ago? Aren’t you a card carrying fag yerself??

    TH: No my brother, that was just a bad case of “sexual immorality”, in the name of Jesus Christ, I am all cured and shit.

    FP: For three years you were sinning with this Man-Whore, and suddenly you are cured??

    TH: Yes, I have repented for my sins and will now shout out the name of only one man “Jesus… oh God… Oh yes, oh Jesus….”

    …. Um… Ahem, Can I join your Church, since I have been turfed by my own brethren?

    FP: ….. F*ck Off!

    TH: ….. Yes Please…

    For more imagined conversations:

    http://inanity-life.blogspot.com/2007/02/case-for-accused.html
    http://inanity-life.blogspot.com/2007/01/in-love-and-war.html

  52. #52 Flea spray
    June 26, 2007

    George Carlin has a funny comment on people god loves but sends to hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBAPbOWLxc

  53. #53 Fleaspray
    June 26, 2007

    George Carlin has a funny comment on people god loves but sends to hell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBAPbOWLxc

  54. #54 Phil Regal
    June 26, 2007

    I traveled in Papua New Guinea shortly after the Jonestown suicides. The “savages” were everywhere utterly shocked at how crazy white people can get.

    I don’t think that there is any religion among these PNG people of 800 languages that gets as crazy/hateful as the Baptists in the video. What is a cargo cult here and there compared to these home-grown fanatics?

    I suspect that a lot of “savages” would consider this sort of misanthropic fear and hate indoctrination in the video to be child abuse. It robs the kids of their humanity.

  55. #55 D
    June 27, 2007

    Can any of you prove that God does NOT hate the world, and all of its people? Using the “logic” of many religionists and apologists, if you can’t DISprove something, then it must be true.

    Beer. QED

  56. #56 David Robertson
    June 28, 2007

    “I wonder if Mr. Robertson can explain why great numbers of Antiphelpsian Christians haven’t spoken out, persistently and vociferously, against the hate-politics of the Westover Baptist Church.”

    We have. And we will continue to. Although the irony is that the Phelps cult thrive on and live for publicity which they will get from atheists who in turn thrive on the view that Christianity is what the Phelps teach. In that sense both the Phelps and those who use them for Christian bashing propoganda purposes, are the same. Disgusting.

  57. #57 heSaid
    June 28, 2007

    I agree with disgusting… This video is the exact image of why I converted from Christianity. Why would you follow a God that encourages you to believe that everything you have ever done is a sin worth burning for.

    Also, I am disgusted that someone would televise their ignorance while simultaneously destroying a song that we know and love.

    This song is also interesting because they say that we need to listen to the “word” to be saved. If anyone has honestly read the “word” for themselves, it is all vague enough to be left to interpretation… I saw it all as an attempt to give us hope, not, die, burn, burn, and die again.

    And I think that final touch of adding the little girl at the end is the final straw. Don’t teach your children that kind of hate so early. Let them experience it for themselves. Send them to Junior high, at least that is real world experience.

  58. #58 Mulahahahaha
    July 2, 2007

    223 comments already. Well, I’m not going to read through all of them to see if this link has been posted yet:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8x14cLGh5o&mode=related&search=

    I am an anti-atheist like many of you, but in all fairness, I think we need to condem this video as well.

  59. #59 Tanner Morrow
    August 3, 2007

    It’s just beyond disturbing. God is love yet god is hate? And that poor child at the end…it crushed me to hear her singing that song. It’s just absolutely dreadful.

  60. #60 shawn
    August 28, 2007

    one of those chicks is hot

  61. #61 nancy
    November 21, 2007

    The tipoff to the mental illness of this mob lies in the concept of God hating. That has to be the biggest contradiction of terms in the history of humanity. Only someone who hates understands hatred so these people are projecting their hatred onto God and looking in a mirror. And, of course, to profess to speak for God is psychosis. The more attention these monsters get, the worse it will be. God is love.

  62. #62 john
    December 12, 2007

    As A Christian I find this morally repugnant.

    John 3:16 “For God LOVED The World so Much that he gave his only begotten son”

    They practice John 16:3 “They do these things because they have not known the father, nor have they known me.”

    And Is it Just me or does everyone in the video look like their parents were related?

  63. #63 Lynne Raisley
    November 22, 2008

    The “god” of your creation is nothing but projecting your views onto what is reality. If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed. The trouble with your view is that you know not what you are talking about. Behind the physical is the spiritual realllity. Did you know that some the greatest people come forth from troubles. Man has the ability to overcome and triumph. “Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good”. Precious science has not the answers either. There are mysteries that you know not.

  64. #64 Owlmirror
    November 22, 2008

    If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed.

    Then God should tone back on the power, and just talk.

    Hey, I would settle for a still small voice. Or even a burning bush.

    There are mysteries that you know not.

    I know. I’m more of an SF fan, and these days, I’ve been reading more nonfiction.

    Although I do like the mysteries on “Pushing Daisies”, weird as that show is. Pity it was canceled.

  65. #65 Nerd of Redhead
    November 22, 2008

    Lynne, do you have any physical proof for your imaginary god that would pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers? I didn’t think so. Physical evidence for your imaginary god is sorely lacking.

  66. #66 Wowbagger
    November 22, 2008

    If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed.

    If he has so much power, why is he useless? Why doesn’t he do something to alleviate the suffering in the world? Or are you implying that he could, but doesn’t? That would work, too – god not being benevolent; rather, he is the hateful monster christians seem to forget the old testament shows he is.

    The trouble with your view is that you know not what you are talking about.

    I think you’d be very unpleasantly surprised at how many Pharyngulites are far more familiar with the vagaries of religious belief than you – or anyone you know, for that matter – are. Are you able to translate ancient Greek and Hebrew? Posters here can.

    Man has the ability to overcome and triumph.

    Er, not quite. Humanity has the ability to overcome the burden of superstitious nonsense and triumph over redundant, archaic religions.

    Fixed it for ya.