Under the malign influence of the wicked and silly Sally Kern, some Oklahomans were trying to pass an awful religious viewpoints anti-discrimination act, which would have simply given further privileges to majority religious views in the state.
Fortunately, Governor Brad Henry has vetoed the legislation, saying
Under current state and federal law, Oklahoma public school students are already allowed to express their faith through voluntary prayer and other activities. While well intended, this legislation is vaguely written and may trigger a number of unintended consequences that actually impede rather than enhance such expression. For example, under this legislation, schools could be forced to provide equal time to fringe organizations that masquerade as religions and advocate behaviors, such as drug use or hate speech, that are dangerous or offensive to students and the general public. Additionally, the bill would presumably require school officials to determine what constitutes legitimate religious expression, subjecting them to an explosion of costly and protracted litigation that would have to be defended at taxpayers expense.
It's one small step back from the brink of theocratic inanity, hooray!
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Does that dude deserves a reelection? I think he does!
Hot Damn I knew we could do it!! Being an Oklahoma Native I very distressed about this bill and send Gov. Henry several letters expressing my disdain, asking him to veto. He did! BTW he's a Democrat & super delegate for Obama.
Wow! Good for Governor Henry!
Sorry, No re-election for . Term Limited.
Hooray indeed. This is great news.
While well intended,
Ha! Double ha!
...an explosion of costly and protracted litigation that would have to be defended at taxpayers expense
costly? yes; protracted? maybe not. Looks like a swift slam-dunk.
Michelle: maybe so, but is common sense that rare in OK? Or, maybe not, Brad Henry is a D and won with 66% of the vote in '06
Wow, that's great.
With all of the losses (SC's bill went down recently as well), it looks like momentum might be on the side of sense at the present.
So much for Expelled propelling the DI's dishonesty in the legislatures.
I'm not saying there's no threat, of course, just so far so good.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
And when we say
Yeeow! Ayipioeeay!
We're only sayin'
You're doin' fine, Oklahoma!
Oklahoma O.K.
L - A - H - O - M - A
OKLAHOMA!
Yeeow!
As good as it is that the Governor vetoed the bill, it is equally bad for the state when you realize that this bill even had to be vetoed by the Governor in the first place. This thing never should have gotten past one legislative body, much less passing both and getting to the Governor's desk. But at least the state of Oklahoma has one elected official with his head screwed on straight.
whoaa... machiavellian thought here!
How about, every time one of those 'academic freedom' bills comes up, we email the governor and urge him to pass it, so that we can profess our beliefs more freely to the students.
This is the trick: we use 'NORML' letterhead.
Vic Hutchison, one of my local heroes said in his list-serve OKLAHOMA EVOLUTION LIST SERVE 6 June 2008. said;
"Henry could have waited a day and let this bill die as a pocket veto. It is important that he decided instead to veto it directly, thus sending an important message. "
"This is a major victory for supporters of separation of church and state and of quality in public education. LARGE numbers of individuals sent messages to legislators and the Governor in opposition to this bill as it worked its way through the process. To those, and to the organizations that fought this silliness, THANK YOU. This proves again that numbers do count and that organized efforts of citizens still work in our democracy."
OU has some great professors. I'm so happy that I had the opportunity to be taught by them. Thanks Vic.
NAMBLA letterhead would be even better.
Just want to point out again that there is a Dem running against Kern! Not enough Dems challenging the incumbent GOP here, in fact there are 8 seats uncontested and 11 carry-overs, making the GOP have a one seat advantage going into the election. Source
Anyway, here is the website to donate to Kern's challenger, for those interested:
http://www.ronmarlettforhousedistrict84.com/
Oh and Vic, Thanks for being our watchdog in Oklahoma. I wouldn't have been so connected w/o you being there to let everyone know what our legislature tries to do. I must admit, to the rest of the country it looks like we have serious problems in Oklahoma with these turds, but it has gotten a thousand times better in the last 2 decades. I live here in Oklahoma because of the people like Dr. Vic Hutchison and in spite of people like Kerns. I teach here because I care about the college students & what they learn. I had great examples and I am grateful to them.
Hallelujah! :-)
Thanks barklikeadog for the compliments!
For the record, Kern's bill almost died twice before the Governor's veto. As HB 2211 it was sent to the Senate Rules Committee by the Senate leadership, where it was 'killed' (it was not heard). That would have ended it, but it was revived as an amendment to HB 2633 by Republicans on the floor of the Senate.
A motion by Democratic Senator Wilson to advance HB 2633 without the amendment (a non-debatable motion) tied 24 to 24 strictly along partisan lines. In such a tie, the Lt. Gov. (Jari Askins, a Democrat) could be called to break the tie - she was not called by Sen. Morgan, the Demo co-head of the Senate, although Sen. Wilson asked that she be summoned! Without the Lt. Gov.'s vote the motion died and HB 2633 passed the Senate floor and went back to the House where it passed, with DINO (Democrats in Name Only) support as they trolled for perceived religious right votes.
Lt. Gov. Askins did not know that this had happended until I told her personally at a fund raiser! She was very surprised and upset, saying that she would not have hesitated to break the tie and kill the bill! As her assistant told me: "She can make up her own mind!"
Why did Sen. Morgan not call her? Most observers believe that he was 'protecting' her from casting a controversial vote, since she is likely the next Democratic candidate for Governor! Such are the provincial politics that we have to endure here in Oklahoma.
Okay, I'm really sorry to bust up the party with breaking news.
http://www.sacbee.com/749/story/994772.html
Evil. Just pure evil.
Dr. Hutchison, I had the privilege of meeting Morris Dees once, and I believe what I told him then applies here equally well: Thank you for staying, and for fighting the good fight.
I'm waiting for ERV to gloat by saying "My fish has eaten your fish!" like she promised in her most recent blog. Go get 'em, Abbie!
Posted by: thalarctos | June 6, 2008 5:15 PM
A sentiment heartily seconded here! Dr. Hutchison, the state owes you a debt of gratitude for fighting to keep their academic integrity intact.
I am disappointed by the Governor's rejection. I was hoping that this bill would clear the way for the teachings of The Church of the FSM. The teaching of the Church of the FSM have been rejected by those in Kansas that oppose religious freedom and I was hoping that Oklahoma would not follow in their footsteps. Here is the link to the Church of the FSM's letter to the Kansas School Board.
http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter
MikeM:
Oh, I do so love it when the ol' home town shows up in the news. o.o
(Being from Kern County helped me graduate from the University of California in one year less than it would otherwise have taken. The prospect of going home between terms provided more than enough motivation to take a full load of summer classes.)
I credit Abbie with ERV for this.
Nentuaby, doesn't that just sound like about 200 lawsuits waiting to happen? This can't possibly be going over well at the many venues down there that have dozens and dozens of heterosexual marriages scheduled over the next several months.
I'm married, and that took MONTHS of planning.
I tell you, there's gotta be HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of really pissed off people in Kern County right now. And she's an elected official. And there's an election coming up.
Good thinkin', lady.
Here's how his response should have been:
"Under current state and federal law, this legislation is a clear violation of the 1st amendment of our great nation's founding law document, the Constitution. It is a clear attempt by vocal individuals to force government to take a preferential stance regarding a religion. This is anti-American, bigoted, and a waste of this office's effort for consideration. Furthermore, it represents a stain on our legislative body for this piece of legislation to even have made it to my desk. Therefore I will retire this piece of garbage to the waste bin, where it belongs."
#18 MikeM,
There, you see? PROOF that gay marriage (in addition to killing the dinosaurs) THREATENS good old-fashioned traditional marriage.
Alex #26, yes, well, maybe so. I'd love to see that happen but Gov. Henry has tact & we want the next Dem. to get elected here. It's hard enough as it is w/o antagonizing the electorate.
Unfortunately, MikeM, I agree with your analysis of the morality of this act, but am forced to strongly differ on your political analysis. She'll undoubtedly piss off however many couples she actually stiffs, but the effect of that is more than likely going to be FAR outweighed by the conservative masses drooling all over her.
I hear you Barklikeadog. That was my near-perfect world fantasy response. In a perfect world, nothing like that would ever have been given birth as an idea.
I know Alex. This does give us a chance to rant, doesn't it?. I can't do it at home, and we're outnumbered by the IDiots here in Oklahoma. This blog gives me a chance to virtually hang out with the "like-minded" that doesn't exist in my real world.
Off-topic: The legendary John A. Davison and his sycophant VMartin have both showed up at Jason Rosenhouse's place.
As a Tulsa transplant from New Orleans, I am shocked that this guy actually vetoed this bill! This kind of victory doesn't happen much here. However, while it's something to celebrate, there is still so much work to be done. I fear it will never get done, based on the people I meet makin' groceries, the people who live around me, and the parents of the kids my boy plays with at the park. At least once a week, I have to tell someone I'm an atheist just to make them stop talking (unsolicited, of course)about god (it's always good for about 10 seconds of glorious silence). But I don't want to be a Debbie-Downer - I'm gonna celebrate today.
Thanks, Blake. Seen and sniped!
#32
John A. Davison wrote:
Wow, PZ is the spawn of Satan. And poor Gould, Davison gives him no points for NOMA.
I'm really glad to see Henry make a statement with this. Makes me wish I could vote for him again!
Now if we could just vote the dimwits like Kern out of the legislature, maybe we could start focusing on real issues and put this creationism bullshit behind us.
Plus, this event gives us a huge one-up on Texas; it's almost better than whooping their asses in football. :D
I really like the wording "wicked and silly". It fits so many people... :-D
I really did do my homework...but Anubis ate it!
I can't wait to see Religulous. Check out the trailer:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/trailer_small.html
As I said over on Phil's blog, watch out for a House and Senate override, but....
......Oklahoman's have people like Vic Hutchison, Bruce Prescott, Jim Huff, Amy Smith, the Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education, and the Oklahoma Chapter of the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State to thank. They worked tirelessly to alert the public to the dangers of this bill. I went to their AU chapter conference and heard a lot about this bill. Their presentations were fantastic.
Of course, it doesn't hurt to have a nod or two from Phil and PZ.
oops..... Abbie Smith (ERV). My bad.
The Oklahoma Lege is now adjourned sine die and will not have an opportunity to override the Governor's veto. All they can do (and probably will) is to introduce new bills next year. We expect 'Academic Freedom Act' type bills to appear when the Legislature starts the next session next February. There was talk of calling a special session to consider other items, but such sessions can be convened only to consider the specified emergency.
Oklahoma has now defeated creationist bills, textbook disclaimers, etc., since 1999-2000. The onslaught will not stop, however, and we prepare again for the next attempts - as many other states must also.
Reminds me of one of my favorite movie quotes (from Lone Star):
"Yeah, it's always heartwarming to see a prejudice defeated by a deeper prejudice."
They still don't get it, but they'll do whatever it takes to keep those rival religions out!
Sorry, No re-election for . Term Limited.
Probably wouldn't have done it otherwise. I don't think many politicians have the guts to actually do something that in any way reduces their chance of extending their power.
I've only lived in oklahoma for a few years now but its been alarming to see the type legislation trying to be passed on this issue (and other issues i might add). As sweet as it is that this piece of legislation has been shot down I can't help but to still have a bitter taste in my mouth considering the couple months ahead in our southernly neighbor, Texas.
Not too far off topic ... South Carolina approved the License Plate.
Whoops PZ. The psychotic Dennis Markuze has slipped out of your dungeon and past the guards.
Sally Kern is still in office after her public anti-gay tirade?
The mind boggles...!
Dave! You're back! Woohoo!
I guess I know why I like PZ, Randi and Dawkins now. This is a pic of me on a bicycle:
http://www.blognetnews.com/cycling/feed.php?channel=103&iid=19664&y=200…
No kidding. That's really me.
As a current student at the University of Oklahoma and a strong opponent of this legislation, I thank those fellow men and women who actively protested the veto of this bill.
and FINALLY:
guess what is inside angel's ENVELOPE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YXHGGfeVzI
these *UGLY GEEKS* should stick to BIOLOGY
visit:
http://http://www.fstdt.com/forums/thread.aspx?t=16853&page=1
to see how we stopped James Randi's MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE and caused the President of American Atheists, Ellen Johnson, to quit her job
we are fighting back, you deluded fu*ke*rs
Okay, Dave, I watched this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4WoXpnf7-I
All it proves is that...
Wow, that Nostradamus was one ugly geek.
we'll stop you now before you become a big shi*t like PZ and Randi....
You and all the voices in your head, I assume.
Yawn...Time to up Dennis the Menace's meds, I see.
Here I thought PZ Meyers believed in freedom of religion as he said so in the Seattle newspaper, so why would he be so happy with a bill being vetoed which already exists in Federal law? Does PZ Meyers really believe that it should be against the law for a student expressing a religious viewpoint in the classroom?
Posted by: Michael | June 7, 2008 2:46 AM
I can't speak for PZ, but I can speak for myself and my opinion. If that religious viewpoint compromises the academic integrity of the classroom, then yes, it should be kept out of the classroom entirely. And if we need a law to do that, then such a law is quite justified.
Besides, there is no federal law that condones the teaching of religious viewpoints in a scientific curriculum, but I'm sure that you'll find some evasion to get around that minor point. And even if there was such a law on the books, that still wouldn't make it right -- that law, if it existed, should be immediately reviewed and stricken from the books.
Michael, if the bill is unnecessary, and completely redundant to and compliant with existing, constitutional federal law, then why was it written in the first place?
Why?
You don't really get this, ever - do you. You're asking the wrong question - as usual.
Or, if you prefer an assessment that grants you more intellectual credibility at the expense of integrity:
You already know the answer, but you don't give a damn about encroaching christianism in public institutions. You welcome it. We already know you want to deep-six public education, so everything you say on any topic that even tangentially relates to public education - everything - is highly suspect.
Could someone please shut this davjohns guy up?? His last few posts are the perfect definition of insipidity...along with being annoying as hell.
Posted by: Kseniya | June 7, 2008 3:09 AM
Amen, Kseniya, Amen...
Soldier, he's been banned already... he's morphing. He's rather famous across the known innertoobz. Best practice: ignore completely. Completely. You'd get more satisfying responses if you were to engage a spambot.
Most of the time I'm embarrassed to be from Oklahoma, and with damn good reason! You wouldn't believe the mouth-breathing idiots I have to deal with here, people just like this davjohns character: Belligerent, bellicose, bible beating drones. These are the people who helped Bush steal the last two elections, the sort who would blow up an abortion clinic.
This news brought a big smile to my face, and tomorrow I'll have a little spring in my step: Oklahoma seems just a little less dumb now.
Damn! Does this mean the supply of menial idiots to feed to my lions is going to dry up?
It's a good thing for the people there. Even if it means a pride of cute kitties starves.
we'll stop you now before you become a big shi*t like PZ and Randi....
How many voices are you hearing at this moment? You do realize that the voices in your head aren't real people and won't be able to help you out, don't you?
shorter Michael:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
*THEY HAVE LOST THEIR *SOULS* AS PUNISHMENT
Tell them to look under the bed. That's where my cat hid mine. She was having so much fun playing with it, though, that I didn't have the heart to take it away from her.
I'm fine without it. Not like I need it or anything.
God must be angry over the veto:
Something going on down there? As any Christian theologico-seismologist can tell you, this is a warning from Gawd to teach more Jeebus in schools and make sure them thar gays don't get none o' them special rights. Amen.
Something going on down there? As any Christian theologico-seismologist can tell you, this is a warning from Gawd to teach more Jeebus in schools and make sure them thar gays don't get none o' them special rights
Don't forget, we ain't related to no damned dirty apes.
fringe organizations that masquerade as religions and advocate behaviors, such as drug use or hate speech, that are dangerous or offensive to students and the general public.
Something about this phrasing is funny to me--kinda proves that the nonsense inherent in all religion is hard to distinguish from so-called "fringe" organizations. Also, who is to determine what is a masquerade?
Congratulations Oklahoma! Glad to see my Mom's birth state is leaning toward reason!
Note: He said, "Obviously, there is something going on down there." [emphasis mine]
The false god "God" had nothing to do with this seismic event. Obviously, it was Pluto expressing his amusement.
MAJeff: I think shorter Michael would be no more than four (4) "blah blahs". Typically, let's say, three full beats of eighth-note blahs, with a rest on and-of-four:
Or, if you prefer a backbeat (though I strongly suspect that Michael is one of those "Up With People" fans who claps on 1 and 3)"
Oh the other hand, the blahs do have a wholly arhythmic quality to them...
Hey! Who you callin' "one-dimensional"? Now that's where I draw the line!
Kseniya,
I think you're attributing to Michael a complexity that doesn't exist.
Sigh. I'm such a pattern-seeking creature...
OT:
Is this real, or an attempt to channel The Onion?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/06/07/India.god.ap/
"McArthur DID SO deliver the Gettysberg address, my preacher told me so. You can't mark it wrong, it's my religion!"
The Oklahoma State Constitution is more explicit about the separation of church and state than the U.S. Constitution. I wonder how many legislators even know this. Krazy Kern must not, given her many previous actions and statements, or she must believe in pious lies - more likely it is a combination of her ignorance and twisted religiosity.
OKLAHOMA CONSTITUTION
"Article II - Bill of Rights
Section 5. No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such."
I don't know much about Oklahoma state politics and I wasn't familiar with this bill, but from the link and information provided, I tentatively agree with you all that the Governor's veto was correct. As a law student, I know the problems which can be caused by poorly-drafted legislation, and it looked like this bill could have any number of bizarre legal consequences, and make things very difficult for school authorities (while providing a lucrative gravy train for lawyers).
I don't have much to add to the discussion here that hasn't already been said; I mention this only to illustrate that I don't always disagree with the consensus opinion here, and I don't argue just for the sake of it.
And I don't understand what davjohns is trying to say, nor why he's repeating the same post again and again. I would assume it was a parody of some sort, but people's comments seem to indicate otherwise. Is he always like this? Or am I just being obtuse?
@#83 Walton --
davjohns aka David Mabus aka Dennis Markuze (real name) is more than a little off his rocker, and obsessed with James Randi (and, to a lesser extent, PZ, Dawkins, et al).
You can read about him here or here (scroll down a bit). The post he made (in duplicate) on this thread is fairly typical of him.
Does anyone think that giving protection to Rastafarian sacraments might have some appeal among Oklahoman high school students?
David Markuze is a familiar energetic troll. He is always like that, very seriously mentally disturbed.
DM appears for a while then disappears for long periods of time. The current theory is that he spends his downtime in psychiatric facilities.
Sad. I feel a bit sorry for him.
Walton, he's a troll. It's best not to feed the trolls.
In regards to what happened in Oklahoma: I've noticed that many fundamentalist Christians appear to take two contradictory positions:
* The vast majority of Americans are professed Christians.
* Unless it is actively promoted, Christianity with wither away.
they have lost their SOULS as punishment......
They're probably under the refrigerator. Last time I lost my soul it turned out that my cat had been playing with it and had batted it under there with all the dust bunnies.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2683,Reality-wins-in-Texas,Bad-Astron…
-In regards to my comment earlier maybe, hopefully I'll be wrong about texas.
And my sistur ain't related to no apes neither so I know our kids ain't, too.
I'm hearing more of a Blah waltz, like:
BLAH-blah-blah
BLAH-blah-blah
BLAH-blah-blah....
"Article II - Bill of Rights
Section 5. No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such."
Damn, I wish the founding fathers had thought of that one. Right now we've got the Bush Administration discovering that if can funnel billions of dollars to its voting base, uh, excuse me - to faith based charities - to dispense for new church roofs, to teach abstinence, and buy the ministers cadillacs. (I'm not kidding, BTW. Read the list of where $$ are going on faith based initiatives - $400 million to teach teen-agers abstinence as a way of preventing STDs. Follow the links from http://www.whitehouse.gov and you'll find a PDF with the slush list, uh, grant list, and your head will explode with rage.)
I know the problems which can be caused by poorly-drafted legislation, and it looked like this bill could have any number of bizarre legal consequences, and make things very difficult for school authorities
Much of this is intentional on the part of the authors.
they have lost their SOULS as punishment......
no they haven't, they're stashed safely in the sock drawer.
I hear the "blah"s as sung to the tune of Strauss's Blue Danube Waltz, myself.
How can Mickey Mouse's dog cause earthquakes? He's such a nice dog.
they have lost their SOULS as punishment......
It's theology a la Bart Simpson
Q. What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Mark 8:36)
A. The whole world.
I think MAJeff may have given us the insight with which to analyze the Blah Danube Waltz and other works of The Kenny. We now see that these works are comparable to the dance music of P.D.Q Bach, which, as we are told by Professor Schickele, "suggests that one of his legs was shorter than the other."
Here too, the insane man
from the north of the New World
left screams and ravings
the eight-armed ones wield the mighty swords